Had to post today at the tower at Flatbush Avenue, and when I got there I was surrised to see that it was 2 side platforms, having never been there before. Are there any other still existing end-of-the-line terminals like this (I'm not a true A div person and haven't been to too many A div terminals, but there are none in the B like this)? Is there a reason why Flat is 2 side platforms instead of an island platform?
By end of the line I mean where no other line continues past that point (like Broad as the terminal for the J but the M continues).
The Flatbush AVE station on the 2/5 was never intended to be the terminal for those lines. The original plan was for the line to continue to floyd bennit feild which at the time was the cities only airport. Obviously that never took place. It would be nice if it would have been completed. It would have served Kings Plaza Well.
Nope...the plan was to continue down Nostrand Avenue, transitioning to an elevated structure and as far as the area of Avenue S. If memory serves, it was then supposed to turn east, but I don't recall how far it was supposed to go (though Floyd Bennett Field doesn't ring a bell).
David
The Utica Avenue Line was the one that was to extend to Kings Plaza (approx. Utica & Flatbush Aves.) with an additional extension to Floyd Bennett Field (IIRC on the map of proposed extensions it shows a break in the route which indicates that the portion running between Kings Plaza and FBF was to be a shuttle line).
Are we talking about the 1968 plan here? What I referred to goes way back to the 1920s.
David
Nope. Floyd Bennet Field didn't become an air field until WWI (1917ish), well after construction on the current Brooklyn IRT was underway.
I believe voiceofreason got the lines mixed up. The Flatbush branch of IRT was to continue down Nostrand and terminate at Voorhies Ave. near Sheepshead Bay (actually closer to near Marine Park). Thanks to the NIMBYS of Marine Park and NYCTA finacial constraints at the time, the extension plan was killed.
Another way to tell the line was to continue on: look at the support structures at the southern end of the station platform -- the tunnel-type support beams continue beyond the train terminus going past the fare control area up to the MVM machines (disappearing into the tiled walls near the stairwell). I was told that about 150 of the line continues on past the station platform, ending near Avenue H.
there are some oictures out there that shows this to be so.... a train once ran into the bumper block there,showing the tunnel extending a little futher along.
there are some pictures out there that shows this to be so.... a train once ran into the bumper block there,showing the tunnel extending a little futher southeast.
"Are there any other still existing end-of-the-line terminals like this"
New Lots.
145th on the 3 was when it was a terminal.
New Lots had an island platform, last I checked. (Unless you mean New Lots on the L, which isn't the terminal.)
But Dyre used to have side platforms.
"But Dyre used to have side platforms."
Dyre Ave. had one side platform for a terminal, which was the old NYW&B northbound local platform. The southbound local platform was never used for the IRT. A very high wind blew the canopy off the local platform. That's when the TA decided to upgrade this terminus to an island platform. Pics of this can be seen in Roger Arcara's classic book, "Westchester's Forgotten Railway".
Bill "Newkirk"
I stand corrected. Peter Dougherty's track map shows two side platforms, and I assumed this was at one point the configuration.
When was the island platform built?
There are quite a few terminals with stub ends.
Ditmars Blvd N,W
Lefferts Blvd A
Far Rockaway A
242 St 1,9
Rockaway Parkway L
Not exactly what I meant. What I meant was stub ends that were side platforms instead of island platforms.
Oh, terminals with side platforms.
South Ferry 1,9 [even though it uses only 1 platform]
Grand St shuttle [only until the Manny-B project allows 6 Av trains to run to Brooklyn again]
New Lots Av 3
Every elevated IRT terminal has side and center platforms. My guess is that this was done to clear congestion by allowing trains to empty incoming passangers onto the side platforms.
Yeah I'm sure that was the purpose but they don't use the side platforms nowadays, its used for storage & trash.
New Lots Avenue doesn't have side platforms.
"New Lots Avenue doesn't have side platforms."
The track maps show it as having side platforms. Presumably this is no fault of Peter's since the NYCT changed the arrangements after he made the maps.
It would be wonderful (though I realize it's a lot of work) if someone who knows the subway system in great detail would compile an errata sheet for the track maps. Of course, I can see that this would cut into Peter's sales of updates.
Looked up the word errata and got "list of something." A list of track maps you mean? I'm confused, lol
Errata is the standard publishing term for list of errors.
It, and Main Street on the Flushing (Three Tracks?) were NEVER INTENDED to be terminals. My suggestion in both cases is to EXTEND the line and build loops to increace capacity. Both lines need more capacity, but especially the (7).
On the (7)... extend the line along Roosevelt Avenue with a two track side platform station at Parsons Blvd, and a four track two island platform station at Northern Blvd. Dual loops under the LIRR ROW connect the eastbound platform to the westbound platform. Several trains may be serviced with such an arrangement while increasing the capacity of the line.
On the (2)/(5)etc. Id extend the southbound track along Noostrand Avenue then turn east to a new two track center-platform station on the LIRR ROW, and then return north along Flatbush Avenue and rejoining the existing trackage at the Flatbush Avenue station. This *could* be a three or four track loop without a station, providing they are not going to be fussy about clearing the train before it enters the loop. Call it a revenue loop and let those who miss the last stop wait for the cleaners and crews to bring the equipment back into the station again. Once or Twice will learn them.
Elias
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended. The original plan was to extend the Corona line along the now-gone Whitestone LIRR branch north of Willets Point.
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended.
And why not is this? Anything that has been built can be rebuilt.
Elias
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended.
And why not is this? Anything that has been built can be rebuilt.
Extending Main Street would require destroying something like $30 million worth of recent renovations. Sure, it could be done, but it would be a huge waste of money.
I'm going to have to see this magnificient gem of a station the next time I come east! Is it nicer than the one in Renseller? Troublemakers want to know.
you talkin bout that ''pretty''new station,across the Hudson river from Albany?Been there,very nice,but not worth the massive amounts of cash spent on it.....they didnt even have a clock,for god sake.
.they didnt even have a clock,for god sake.
God doesn't NEED a clock!
One will be put there just as soon as they get an advertiser to PAY FOR IT!
: ) Elias
what are u...a wise guys or somethin'?8^)
What's the point of introducing a loop to help the relay procedure if both the locals and the expresses have to merge in for that stop on Parsons first? Sure, there wouldn't be much congestion at the terminal, but just outside it there would.
If *that* is an issue, then it would be easy to make Parsons a four track station too. But his then limits you: the expresses must then use the center loop, and the locals must use the outer loop. I was thinking to alternate arrivals and departures. Train on track A leaves, throw the swithch, train on track B leaves, throw the switch...
There is no reason why this arrangement cannot manage 45 tph.
Elias
45 TPH means that on those two tracks at Parsons, should you decide to keep them, you must have a train open its doors, board and alight people, close the doors, accelerate and completely leave, another train fully enter and open its doors, all in 80 seconds, every 80 seconds. I think it would be much more dependable to keep everything three or four tracks east of Main St, and keep the 7 line in general at 40 TPH rather than 45 TPH. I don't know if Times Sq would like 45 TPH. One idea for Northern Blvd (your last stop) is to have everything after Main St three tracks and make the No. Blvd loop only from the out-bound local track around to the in-bound track and just make the train that comes in on the express (middle track) relay without any kind of loop.
the in-bound track and just make the train that comes in on the express (middle track) relay without any kind of loop.
The idea for the loops it to give the car cleaners a few minutes to do their work.
Train comes in, cleaners get on, chases geese off
T/O and C/R get off,
New Crew gets on.
Doors close, train goes into loop
Cleaners Clean, they got about 120 seconds to clean a car,
Train enters citybounds station doors open, cleaners get off geese get on.
Doors Close: Give my regards to Broadway!
Elias
The TA did have a plan to extend tracks to relay trains beyond
the station....and speed up service. This plan would make lots of sense....similiar to 205th st on the D. I was told about this a few years ago from a good source.
You don't need an inside source to find out about the plan for the Flatbush tail tracks. See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm#pp and do a search on Flatbush.
The news so far hasnt said much ecxept for that communications have been lost for 40 minutes, looking at a video on cnn, you can see that the shuttle disintegrated into 5 peices.
>>> you can see that the shuttle disintegrated into 5 peices. <<<
I am sorry, I can not tell from your post if you are referring to the Times Square shuttle or the Franklin shuttle, or some other rail shuttle.
Tom
Some things transcend the topicality of this message board.
Well since none run 5 cars in NYC I hope it was none of them. :)
This morning on SubTalk was the first I heard of it. I was trying to figure out how the hell the TA lost a shuttle.
The TA lost an entire R-44 "A" train, plus an entire R-38 "A" to 16-year-old Keron Thomas in 1993, all because the poor lad wanted some handle time. Weirdness like that DOES happen. So it's not strange that you'd think first of the TA, not NASA.
So it's not strange that you'd think first of the TA, not NASA.
Especially on SubTalk.
There are reports that there was a series of explosions before the space shuttle Columbia broke up.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the explosions was after Columbis started breaking up.
The information I had yesterday was preliminary. You just can't jump to conclusions. This is simply just going to have to play out and then we'll know what happened.
#3 West End Jeff
Most likely the sonic boom(s) created by the Mach 8 speed the craft was moving at...
I don't remember all of my ballistics figures because I was never involved with 'silenced projectiles' but speed of sound is something more like 800 MPH and Columbia was doing 12,500 at an altitude of 200k. We're talking 15+ mach with a generation that never experienced sonic booms. Unlike a passenger aircraft meeting the ground at 500 MPH, the airframe broke up and no part crashing to earth was apparently larger than a small automobile. Sadly, the crew compartment was not designed to be an independent vehicle body like Star Trek rotunda or a protective 'bathtub' like A-10 'Warthogs.' We just might go back to Apollo capsules or Soyuz. If something goes wrong on ISS, the Rooskies just might bring our people home. It's just not Glasnost, Ees Pravda Komrads. Remember the souls lost reaching out into the Universe, East and West. CI Peter
If something goes wrong on ISS, the Rooskies WILL bring our people home. The escape craft tethered to to the ISS is a Soyuz. Dosvidanya!
It is obvious that the shuttle had an airframe failure at 200K feet travelling 12.5K mph as it did a barrel roll and began to break up.
Some doof tried to pass the problem on to inspection.......the best inspectors could not have found THIS potential stress problem. CI Peter
.
Probably IMO
They are showing video of it burning up and crashing near Dallas Texas.
Showing it over and over again.
A state of emeregency was already declared for Texas; I'm watching Ch 2 at this moment and its showing that the shuttle broke apart and falling down; real sad :-(.
Old "Duck and Cover" drills come to mind. Thank god nobody on the ground was killed, but declaring states of emergency for things like this might do more harm than good.
Just heard about it in the car. Absolutely horrific event. They say communications were lost at 200,000 feet.
There is a report, NOT PROVEN! that a piece of something that bounced off the wing during take-off had something to do about it. It caused minor damage. However the crew on board said it was not serious.
Nothing has been proven. This should NOT be considered what happened.
I imagine that it will be quite some time before the cause will be determined.
And I'm sure on the internet will be all sorts of "theories".
They said on NY1 and CNN that the Mission Control commander said it wasn't serious.
Even if it caused more serious damage than they let on, reentering then could have had the same result. So he may have bought them 16 more days of life. And by telling the crew and others that it wasn't serious avoided a panic.
However he's probbaly going to have to live with the constant questioning by superiors and the media. Kinda sucks.
I would hope and pray that if this really was the case couldn't they have hooked up with the space station at least to avoid reentry and possibly wait for another shuttle with possible parts for repairs if it could be repaired or just get our Astronauts home savely. A shuttle can be replaced but not a family member/ please remember that I am only responding to possibilities and not on any facts here but again it is now over and I do pray for all of them
JV
I fully agree. I would must certainly hope that had ANYONE connected with the suttle in any way had had even an inkling that the incident on take off could present a problem on re-entry that they would have docked with the space station (there are 3 astronauts there now) and awaited a mission with either spare parts or to return them safely to earth. I think everyone will agree, sacrificing a spaceship (had it been thought that Columbia could not safely return to earth) is a small price to pay to save even one life!
I remember a presentation given to my grade school at the time of lunar mission about the unforgiving nature of re-entry. The person giving the presentation told us that there is a precise angle that the space craft must hit the atmosphere at, too shallow and the craft "bounces" out into space; too steep and the craft will burn up on hitting the atmosphere. Now I don't know if that applies to orbital missions as well as ones such as the lunur ones that left the orbit of earth, but it sure entered my mind this morning.
May all our prayers be with the families of the crews!
According to my copy of "The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual" (by Kerry Mark Joels, Ballantine Books, 1984) the angle of re-entry is critical. It must be between 28 and 38 degrees with respect to the horizon, and with respect to the shuttle's LVLH (local vertical/local horizontal) position. The tech briefing by NASA just a few minutes ago also reported temp sensors going offline before breakup, and then excessive temp warnings from other sensors just before telemetry was lost, along with loss of landing gear tire pressure. This information is merely a set of clues, not the final cause.
God rest the souls of the fine, brave crew.
Unfortunately, from what I am hearing on the radio, Columbia was too heavy to dock with the space station, so that wouldn't have been a solution.
I don't know much about this stuff but would it have been possible to send another ship and do a transfer of the crew? It would mean Columbia would have had to have been sacrificed, but had they known (and if this was the cause), would it have saved the lives?
Would have taken too long to workup a flight profile and mission rules, plus get another ship and crew flight-ready.
And maybe the risk outweighed the good here. We may think it simple, but without air resistance and being in freefall, one small move can go a long way, maybe into the other shuttle.
And I read the shuttle has a minimun of 4 crew and max of 7, but I would guess in an emergency they could find a way to get more on board by leaving off some payload.
I had a similar idea.
Sadly, the ISS is in a 61 degree orbit, that's 61 degrees above the equator. You've probably see the maps of the world at Johnson Space Center, with what looks like a sine wave running back and forth across the equator. Basically all this is is a graphical representation of the ground track of the shuttle. Since spacecraft orbit the globe, they must pass above the equator twice in every orbit. An orbit with an inclination to the equator of 0 degrees looks like a flat line running the length of the equator. A 10 degree orbit will have it's most northern and southern portions at 10 degrees.
The ISS is in a 61 degree orbit because the russians also need easy access to the station, since their launchers (Protons, Zenits and Soyuzes [Soyuzi? Soyi?]) have thus far done the bulk of the heavy lifting. Since Plesetsk in russia is at around 60 some degrees north longitude, the ISS has been placed there. Most missions out of Cape Canaveral go to a 28 degree orbit, since the Cape is some 30 degrees off the equator, and it's easiest to just fly south to the equator, setting the high points off the equator at 28 degrees, and getting a slight boost from the earth's spin.
Columbia is in fact unable to reach the ISS that requires the Shuttles to fly north out of the cape, raising the inclination to 61 degrees, sacrificing the boost from the spin, and putting more stringent requirements on the spacecraft, cause Columbia was the first out and was loaded down with instrumentation and so on, it is too heavy to sacrifice the spin and make a 61 degree orbit.
This places Columbia in a Nasa-standard 28 degree orbit, and requires a complex orbital change at the equator, where all orbital planes, from 0 to 28 to 61 to 89 degrees, intersect. To do this requires a burn in the direction you want to go, perpendicular to the direction of travel, and that requires fuel. I'm not sure how much fuel the Shuttle had at that point, but I'd be willing to bet that Columbia didn't have enough fuel to reach the ISS through a burn at the equator. In space fuel (or a tether) is everything, you cannot push off anything, even if you are 3/8s of an inch from the handle, you will not reach it.
It's nice to think that something could have been done, however nobody seems to have had any idea that it was nearly as bad as it wound up. They do need to do something to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. If it does turn out that it's damage to the leading edge of the left wing, NASA might want to consider making changes to the way they do things with non-spacewalk missions. Either always carrying the Robotic Manipulator Arm on all missions, equipping every flight with a repair kit for fixing damage to the tiles, finding a way to still have spacewalks and carry suits while carrying that Spacelab Module, or any combination of those three, preferably all three.
Other than that, we really now need to think about replacing the Shuttle. We're down to 3, and while the ISS schedule may or may not be interupted (most likely it will be). One solution is to create a new pair of space shuttles as replacements for Challenger and Columbia, however we've advanced quite a bit since the 1970's technology that bred the STS. Ideally something like HOTOL (HOrizontal Take Off and Landing) is now possible, so long as air to air refueling is used in the take off.
Pathfinder proposes to use something like this, having a modified KC-135 with it's high lift (least more lift than a shuttle-type craft) wings carry the fuel above the thicker lower atmosphere, Pathfinder takes off with conventional jets and nearly empty tanks to lighten it as much as possible, then tanks with the -135 a few miles up, gets it's load of kerosene and LOX, detaches and climbs to some 70,000 or so feet where the jets lost oxygen, burn out and a russian RD-120 rocket takes over, pushing it to a suborbital flight, where a small payload motor fires it to a stable orbit. Admittledly Pathfinder is a severely limited thing, only capable of suborbital flights with any appreciable payload, however it could be increased in size to create a HOTOL shuttle replacement, at the very least capable of becoming a cheaper crew shuttle, leaving the assembly to the Shuttles and expendibles.
Oh well, it's still an amazingly sad event.
Two more links to Pathfinder:
http://www.rocketplane.com/index.html
Pathfinder's Hompage.
http://www.spacecoretech.org/coretech2000/Papers/Systems/Rocketplane%20summary.html
An impressive article on Pathfinder.
And:
http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/basics.htm
An excellent site on Orbital mechanics, pretty math heavy.
Thank you for taking time to post all of your information. You have helped me to further understand to doings of the shuttle program. I do agree that even though we have lost our fellow country men and woman, they need to resolve this problem and continue the space program. I also agree that we need to replace our lost shuttles. What better way to do so than name the next shuttle if they do built it AMERICA. what better way to represent our melting pot and our great nation but to send America into space. And if they do this place a memorial plack on or in this shuttle with the names of our falling Astronauts since the begining of our space program.
thank you for reading my post and again on this Sunday morning my family and I would like to send our condolances and prayers to the families of our fallen Hero's
john
I think your suggestion of creating a memorial to the fallen heros on any replacement vehicles is a great idea, but we should not limit it to those lost in Challenger and Columbia, we should include the names of all the brave souls lost in the space program of planet earth. I saw in the paper today that the Soviet Union lost cosmonauts in thier space program as well. Those heros and the people lost in the Apollo 1 disaster as well as others I may not be aware need to be included in such a memorial.
One positve I have taken from this terrible event, is that it is possible for leaders of just about every nation/group in the world to share common ground. Let us hope and pray that from this horrific event, such leaders can discover that we really have more in common than we have differences and use the goodwill that has been expressed to begin resolving differences.
Nice post. Agreed!
Blast! I thought I recalled them being on an ISS servicing mission.
You know that there is a 40 billion dollar hotel floating up there that could have housed them for some time? Had the problem been considered significant they would have embarked on an extended vacation in the Orbital Hilton.
The Texas Department of Public Safety has issued a bulletin to treat the crash debris as a military accident, and North Texas TV and radio outlets are telling people not to touch any debris if they locate it. Lousiana officials are doing the same, since the shuttle exploded at 200,000 feet and the field will likely cover seveal 100 miles (Dallas is 150 miles from the Louisiana state line).
An awful situation, with the focus on possible damaged tiles that occurred during the shuttle launch. Terrorism not suspected, but since there was an Israeli astronaut on board, that thread will pop up everywhere in the coming days.
Here's the AP story on the local reports:
DALLAS (AP) - Residents of north Texas heard "a big bang"
Saturday about the time the space shuttle Columbia disappeared on
its way to a landing at Cape Canaveral.
"It was like a car hitting the house or an explosion. It
shook that much," said John Ferolito, 60, of Carrolton, north of
Dallas.
NASA declared an emergency after losing communication with
Columbia as the ship soared across Texas at an altitude of about
200,000 feet, while traveling at six times the speed of sound.
The space agency said search and rescue teams in the Dallas-Fort
Worth area were alerted.
Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying
overhead. "I could see two bright objects flying off each side of
it," he told The Associated Press. "I just assumed they were
chase jets."
"I was getting read to go out and I heard a big bang and
the windows shook in the house," Ferolito told The AP. "I was
getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows
shook in the house. I thought it was a sonic boom."
Louisiana State Police in Bossier City, 182 miles east of
Dallas, got so many calls that one trooper had to be assigned
just to answer the phone.
"One said he saw a plane breaking up over Shreveport. One
said he saw a big ball of fire. One guy said his house had a
blast that shook his house," state police Sgt. Steve Robinson
said. That call was from DeSoto Parish, south of the parish where
Bossier City is located.
"Back in the 1980s, a Russian satellite re-entered the
atmosphere," Robinson said. "We got lots of calls about that.
Turned out it went down a thousand miles from here."
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (Feb. 1) - Space shuttle Columbia apparently disintegrated in flames over Texas on Saturday minutes before it was to land in Florida. TV video showed what appeared to be falling debris, as NASA declared an emergency and warned residents to beware of falling objects.
Six Americans and Israel's first astronaut were on board.
In north Texas, people reported hearing ''a big bang'' at about 9 a.m., the same time all radio and data communication with the shuttle was lost.
Television stations showed what appeared to be flaming debris falling through the sky, and NASA warned Texas residents to beware of any falling objects. NASA also announced that search and rescue teams were being mobilized in the Dallas and Fort Worth areas.
Inside Mission Control, flight controllers hovered in front of their computers, staring at the screens. The wives, husbands and children of the astronauts who had been waiting at the landing strip were gathered together by NASA and taken to secluded place.
''A contingency for the space shuttle has been declared,'' Mission Control repeated over and over as no word or any data came from Columbia.
In 42 years of U.S. human space flight, there had never been an accident during the descent to Earth or landing. On Jan. 28, 1986, space shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after liftoff.
On Jan. 16, shortly after Columbia lifted off, a piece of insulating foam on its external fuel tank came off and was believed to have struck the left wing of the shuttle. Leroy Cain, the lead flight director in Mission Control, assured reporters Friday that engineers had concluded that any damage to the wing was considered minor and posed no safety hazard.
Columbia had been aiming for a landing at 9:16 a.m. Saturday.
It was at an altitude of 207,000 feet over north-central Texas at a 9 a.m., traveling at 12,500 mph when Mission Control lost contact and tracking data.
Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying overhead. ''I could see two bright objects flying off each side of it,'' he told The Associated Press. ''I just assumed they were chase jets.''
''I was getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows shook in the house,'' Ferolito told The AP. ''I thought it was a sonic boom.''
Security had been tight for the 16-day scientific research mission because of the presence of Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli astronaut.
Ramon, a colonel in Israel's air force and former fighter pilot, became the first man from his country to fly in space, and his presence resulted in an increase in security, not only for Columbia's launch, but also for its planned landing. Space agency officials feared his presence might make the shuttle more of a terrorist target.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office said it had no immediate comment.
Columbia's crew had completed 80-plus scientific research experiments during their time in orbit.
Just in the last week, NASA observed the anniversary of its only two other space tragedies, the Challenger explosion, which killed all seven astronauts on board, and Apollo space craft fire that killed three on Jan. 27, 1967.
I wouldn't be surprised that the damage to the wing may turn out to be the cause of the latest accident. They are also looking into the auxillary power generators. They are leaving no stone unturned in the investigation. One should also note that the spacecraft is over 20 years ago and that could also be a factor.
#3 West End Jeff
(sigh)
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
In the meantime, they are focusing on the left wing of the shuttle since that is where the problem may lie. Let's see what comes out of this.
#3 West End Jeff
Sadness, the heat tiles were peeling off as it was entering earth's atmosphere.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
No they weren't... otherwise it wouldn't have been allowed to come back down. There would've been some space walking action to fix them.
Nope, no spacewalking. SpaceHab missions mean that the airlock is taken by the connector tube between the shuttle cabin and the module. Plus there was no Remote Manipulator System (RMS, or Arm) to carry an astronaut out to the site of the problem. You could have just gone tethered, but there are no hand holds out there on the left wing, if something goes wrong, say the tether snaps, you'd have to claw against the wing's tiles to work your way back to the bay, and good luck getting into the bay itself.
Expect to see NASA find a way to work an airlock off of the Spacehab connector tunnel, so that EVAs can be performed during those missions. Also always carrying Manned Manuvering Units, or at least 4 space suits, along with a tile repair kit and the RMS arm will become mandatory.
Most likely the foam insulation struck the underside of the wing, upsetting one of the tiles just a fraction of an inch. Enough that when it came time to reenter the tile acted as a small spoiler, pushing air away from the airfoil and creating a vacuum behind it's forward edge. It would be pried off the space shuttle in the thinnest reaches of the atmosphere, and after the first the next few would come in quick succession, like dominos. Once the front one is gone, the next one faces the 3000 some degree heat on two sides, and falls off, the next right after it. All this imparts drag on the left wing, which NASA techs see, in the meantime 3000 degree air (really more like plasma), is cutting into the aluminum airframe like a welding torch. This raises the pressure of the tires, which Houston also picks up on, just a bit too late, because by then there are enough tiles gone, and enough aluminum exposed to the torch that the wing has lost structural stability, it breaks off, and the results are immediate and catastrophic, undoubtedly with one wing gone the right wing is now generating all the lift and rolls them, simultaneously slewing the nose to the right, where theres more drag. This places the exactly wrong side of the shuttle into the blast, and the whole thing is cooked like a burning marshmallow, white, thinner tiles soak up the heat and reach their limit.
Just about the only thing that we can hope is that the intense heat and pressure at least allowed the crew a quick and painless death, hopefully time for a quickly muttered prayer before the cabin lost the battle with the atmosphere.
>>> Most likely the foam insulation struck the underside of the wing, upsetting one of the tiles just a fraction of an inch. <<<
I concur with that analysis. When I worked with tactical missiles long ago, a 1/4 inch indentation anywhere in the skin of a missile was enough to remove it from service because of the effect on its flight characteristics. Those missiles flew much lower and slower than the space shuttle.
Tom
Is it possible the final event this led to (before the Shuttle broke up) was a "zipper effect" whereby the tiles peeled open and then off in a chain?
They are looking into the foam insulation hitting the wing and upsetting the tile theory. Like you mentioned, a difference of a fraction of an inch can cause a tiled to be pried off in the thinnest reaches of the atmosphere at the speed the shuttle was flying. At 12,500 m.p.h. the loose tile probably came right off and started the chain of events that led up to the shuttle's break up. One the left wing came off the shuttle simply disintegrated. The death of the crew was probably immediate and perhaps from the shear forces that resulted from the break up.
#3 West End Jeff
The latest reports are of possible shuttle debris found in California and Arizona, which would seem to go towards the "zipper effect" theory. Some other pieces may have come off even before Columbia reached the Pacific Coast. The tiles themselves might actually float in the water, but anything else could be pretty hard to find if it fell off then.
I think that some shuttle debris has been found in California.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> The death of the crew was probably immediate and perhaps from the shear forces that resulted from the break up <<<
Although quick, I doubt that the deaths were so immediate that there was not a sensation of the craft tumbling and perhaps increased temperature which tipped them off that things were going badly before disintegration.
Tom
Once they have started entering the atmosphere, unfortunately, there is NO stopping the re-entry. Gravity takes over....
Actually things on interplanetary tragectories can aerobrake, where they come in at speeds that would merely flip them past the planet at high speed. In aerobraking the satellite would zip inward toward the planet, skims off the upper atmosphere at up to double the Space Shuttle's speed, the reentry heating that we all know so well now bleed's energy off the satellite, braking it, making it orbit the planet, and doing all this without a drop of fuel (if you do it right). The russians always planned to use aerobraking for their moon probes, cause the wanted to get back fast (one or more days less food consumed, less weight), but not carry all the fuel necessary to brake like crazy just before reentr. With aerobraking they could fly back really fast, like one and a half days, then skip off the atmosphere, spend 12 hours floating out on their post-braking run, and then reenter hopefully somewhere over the Soviet Union. Most of our current plans for Mars missions call for Aerobraking, and a big problem with it is that winds and other chaotic atmospheric things can spell disaster for precision on reentry.
Course the shuttle was way too slow, way to low to aerobrake, and could not even hope to successfully aerobrake and achieve orbit again. Although really every orbit ends in an aerobraking, albeit an unsucessful one.
Interesting, thanks for explaining that. I was always under the impression that once the atmosphere started slowing things down and gravity got stronger, they couldn't do anything.
No Problem,
It's all about the energy, you are correct on both accounts, it's just orbital engineer's way of cheating a bit. So far, to the best of my knowledge it has never been used anywhere outside of many hard Sci-Fi books, and is largely unknown.
And obviously the Shuttle didn't have the energy nor even the fuel to push itself out of the atmosphere even over the pacific, let alone over texas.
Yeah, that's the one big problem with space travel. If anything happens out there, the crew is screwed. It's not like if something happens, they can just send up another shuttle tomorrow to get them; the shuttles take months to prepare for a flight. And as we all unfortunately saw Saturday, if anything happens on re-entry, it's over. No "aborting" re-entry, once it has started, there's no escaping coming down the rest of the way. Gravity has already started its task and there is no stopping it....the atmosphere causes vast amounts of heat as they re-enter no matter how slowly.
May they rest in peace!
I never thought that I would re:live this horrable situation all over again. I will certianly pray for our Astronauts and their families
john
In a world overrun by hatred, terrorism, and ruled by human sins and vices of the evil kind, It is encouraging to hear that despite of this incredible tragedy, that we, still, will continue to pursue Space exploration, because I think that Exploration is one of the unique human tendencies that leads to the good of all people, space exploration and science is a noble and worthy endeavour. G-d bless all those who gave their life for the good of mankind.
This is terrible news....the worst news I have heard in some time. I hope the families will be comforted by heroism of the crew.
---Brian
>>> I hope the families will be comforted by heroism of the crew. <<<
What did they do that was more heroic than the typical passenger in an aircraft that falls from the sky?
Tom
Don't you know ever since 9/11 everyone who dies is a hero.
Unfortunately every other word out of the media nowadays is hero, kind of sickening. As sickening as the pricks on ebay selling 'Columbia debris'
"Unfortunately every other word out of the media nowadays is hero, kind of sickening."
Yes, the media does over emphasize things these days. But the shuttle crew was indeed heros. Highly eductaed people who put their life on the line for their country, conducting experiments in space to benefit mankind.
These are people we look up to and admire, Maybe that's what the news media's talking about. And in closing, not only is the latest show of greed on ebay enough to boil our blood, ponder this. Word from Iraq is that Iraqi government officials have expressed glee that the Shuttle blew up. And old Saddam, the wise religious prophet he is, stated that the Shuttle tragedy is God's retribution to the United States. What God does he worship to come up with a statement like that. I guess his God says it's alright to kill and torture a million of his own people and rape his own women.
Now I can't wait for the bombing of Iraq to begin by dropping Susan Sarandon, Norman Lear and all those Hollywood assholes on Bagdad.
Bill "Newkirk"
Working for peace is a fine thing. But if the other side doesn't want peace, either you prepare for war or prepare to die. I don't see Saddam trying too hard for peace.
Now I can't wait for the bombing of Iraq to begin by dropping Susan Sarandon, Norman Lear and all those Hollywood assholes on Bagdad.
Yeah I always though it pretty damn greedy of them that they make all this money in the U.S., from the U.S. people, and then when they get the chnce, turn on the U.S. What patriots.
I agree with you. Drop'm.
Don't forget Hanoi Jane! We need to air-drop 'er somewhere!
She dropped her drawers for Ted Turner and look what it got her.
AOL Time-Warner stock, which is about as hot as Ted and Jane's love-life right now (and weren't they just so darned cute doing that tommahawk chop during the 1996 and '99 World Series against the Yanks?)
If the truth be known, and this will shock everyone who knows me, I was rooting againt the Braves in both Series because I despise Turner and Fonda more than I do the Yankees. The Bronx boys are at least American in spirit and in their winning attitude while those two pathetic jerks to me will always be disloyal traitors. I never watch a Jane Fonda movie and the Braves are the one team I hate more than any other.
I would like to drop a king size chest type dresser draw on her just for kicks
We all seem to agree on this: Jane Fonda is one filthy, rotten, pathetic excuse for a human being.
Thank you Sir I agree with you completely in fact I would love to take up a collection to send her on a trip of a life time to the infamous hanoi hotel.
We also could drop Rosie O'Donnell ... though she probably would count as a weapon of mass destruction.
Geez, and we think that meteor crater out in Winslow, Arizona was big.....
Now, now. We want to DISARM Iraq, not wipe it off the face of the EARTH...or do we?;-)
there is always Roseanne Barr in reserve. she will wipe out iraq, siria and saudi arabia in one dump
PULEEEEZE!!! Whatever happens, do NOT let Roseanne Barr take a dump ANYWHERE!
That would SURELY be the end of mankind.
Rosie is dropped from 50,000 feet -- the shockwave kills people on the ground within the immediate 50 miles, the aftershocks from the impact destroy buildings within a 100 mile radius or so, while a huge dust cloud encircles the Earth, lowering global temperatures and bringing on the "Rosie Winter" that Carl Sagan described 20 years ago, causing crop failures, oceans to freeze and the eventual extinction of most known species of life.
Just too horrible to think about...
My God Jay---when Elvis Presley was singing "Don't Be Cruel" he had to be thinking of you. Poor Rosie.
I saw Rosie on Bill O'Reilly's Factor and she was very moderate and said things that I did agree with. I never thought she and I would share similar sentiments but she is a hell of a lot better than Fonda. And what about O'Reilly? One cool dude.
And to think, we reefed all those redbirds. Could you imagine the crater a redbird would leave if dropped from 25,000 feet?
Too much asbestos -- wouldn't conform to EPA rules for military ordnance. Only dropping R-62 or later cars on Iraq would be legal, I think...
The EPA doesn't fight the wars. Let's drop R-44s on them and bring back the Arnines!
The EPA doesn't fight the wars. Let's drop R-44s on them and bring back the Arnines!
Here's something interesting that manages to get back to the subject of the thread, and mix in the EPA at the same time. Apparently, the spray-on non-CFC insulation mandated by the EPA that was used on the space shuttle over the past several years had a tendancy to flake off after it was applied. It may not mean anything in the final investigation, but it would be ironic if envornmental concerns over flurocarbons in the ozone layer ended up sending a fiery rain of toxic burning materials down on a three-state area
Bill, here's what Iraq had to say, taken from an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha-aretz:
Iraqis: This is God's vengeance
Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday was that it was God's retribution.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said. "God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us."
Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israel Air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead. Ramon, a fighter pilot, was the youngest in a team that bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981.
"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason, now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.
I, as one American, Hardly give a damn about these filthy animals, for you cannot reason with a mule.
I agree.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, quit insulting mules.
A mule has more intelligence than they do.
What the hell is their problem? Can't wait to bomb the shit out of those bastards.
we are waiting for the coin toss
Every time I think of those middle-east bastards I want to rip out their hearts. Then I have to catch myself and say, they can't all be that way; people aren't inherintly evil. And, Fred, stay calm, you don't want to make a bigoted statement about people. I tell you, though, it gets harder and harder to hold my temper.
"Fred, stay calm, you don't want to make a bigoted statement about people."
Pins and needles, needles and pins, it's a happy many that grins.)
Bill "Newkirk"
where is Ralph and Alice
They went roller skating...and later, they're going to a bop dance.
Sorry, but I've always considered astronaughts to be REAL American heroes. Much more of a hero than a crybaby millionaire baseball player.
Amen to that. They were heroes to me too, especially those who were affiliated with the U.S. Navy/Airforce/ and Israeli air force, those who chose to pursue a career in defending this country or in case of Mr. Ramon, Bombing the living Crap out of Sadaams Nuclear Reactor, that could have/already have led to who knows what.
>>> Sorry, but I've always considered astronaughts to be REAL American heroes <<<
I guess it is how you look at it. I'm too used to the cold war days when it seemed like every other Russian was a "Hero of the Soviet Union" for exceeding the factory quota of tractor parts. I just do not think of anyone in any occupation as automatically being a hero because of his/her occupation. To me, a hero is an individual who does something above and beyond what he/she is expected to do, usually at some personal risk. Some occupations have more heros than others, but no occupation is made up 100% of heros.
Tom
Astronauts and Cosmonauts ARE A*L*L 100% HEROES. OLD tom, Do YOU have the oysters to ride a BOMB into space --- NO--- DIDN'T think so. SPACE RESEARCH BRINGS HOME THE BACON, ECONOMOCALLY, MORALLY, AND SOCIALLY -- What's good for NASA is GOOD for the HUMAN RACE.
>>> Astronauts and Cosmonauts ARE A*L*L 100% HEROES. OLD tom, Do YOU have the oysters to ride a BOMB into space <<<.
Sorry you are having so much trouble with the caps lock on your computer. You seem to be confusing heroism with courage. Is Sea Beach Fred a hero because he is willing to ride the Cyclone roller coaster while many others fear to do so? No. Is Evil Knievel a hero because he jumps across various things on a motorcycle and breaks many bones doing so? No. Being courageous enough to risk one's life does not make someone a hero. And BTW, I would love to get a chance to take a space ride. Unfortunately the last time I looked I was still a bit short of the $20 Million + it takes to fly tourist class.
Tom
"You seem to be confusing heroism with courage. Is Sea Beach Fred a hero because he is willing to ride the Cyclone roller coaster while many others fear to do so? No. Is Evil Knievel a hero because he jumps across various things on a motorcycle and breaks many bones doing so? No. Being courageous enough to risk one's life does not make someone a hero."
You are confusing thrill-seekers with dedicated professionals who return to all segments of society lasting benefits. Think about what astronauts do in space (their work list) and compare that to someone who's only interest is a getting a rush on a roller-coaster.
HEROES:
1) Astronauts, who risk their lives in the quest of knowledge and wisdom to benefit us all,
2) Military personnel, who risk their lives to preserve and protect the freedoms we hold so dear,
3) The men and women of our emergency services, (Police, Fire, and EMS) who risk their lives to give us the protection against danger, and death in all its many forms.
These people are but a mere few of so many in a multitude of fields whose common link is their "uncritical willingness", as Tom Wolfe put it, to sacrifice themselves that we may ALL benefit.
God bless our astronaut crews and all our other heroes upon whom we depend every day.
Naw, that's bull. This planet needs people who are willing to risk all to advance our knowledge of the universe. You think it's because of a joyride, you're loony. It is the purest expression of that greatness that we, of all Earths' animals stumbling around on this ball of mud can hope to accomplish. To understand the universe.
Yeah man. That's some kind of heroism.
GOOD POST
And BTW, I would love to get a chance to take a space ride. Unfortunately the last time I looked I was still a bit short of the $20 Million + it takes to fly tourist class.
Unless Southwest Airlines decides to enter a totally new market ...
Nah, ya can't get a 737 over 600 miles an hour.....
Well said, Tom....
Thank you Old Tom. Heroes are not created as such but arise from unusual conditions where they do a little more than required. I work with unsung heroes every day...I'm TA. CI Peter
I guess it is how you look at it. I'm too used to the cold war days when it seemed like every other Russian was a "Hero of the Soviet Union" for exceeding the factory quota of tractor parts. I just do not think of anyone in any occupation as automatically being a hero because of his/her occupation. To me, a hero is an individual who does something above and beyond what he/she is expected to do, usually at some personal risk. Some occupations have more heros than others, but no occupation is made up 100% of heros.
Actually, the modern concept of "hero" is someone who performs a potentially dangerous job AND dies in the performance of those duties. Nothing else is required in terms of extraordinary performance or appreciation of the risk.
Consider it this way - all of the firefighters and police officers who died at the WTC have been enshrined as heros, even though the vast majority of them did not save any lives* and none of them could have realized the danger.** Somehow that seems to cheapen the definition of heroism.
* = just about all of the people who escaped from the WTC did so on their own, almost no one was "rescued."
** = the true danger was unknown because no one on the face of the Earth imagined that the towers would fall. Had they remained standing, the job from a rescuer point of view would have been far less dangerous (basically, waiting for the fires to burn themselves out).
"** = the true danger was unknown because no one on the face of the Earth imagined that the towers would fall."
The engineer who designed the towers is on record (in print) as saying he was sure they would fall as soon as he heard about the attack. Other people with fire-related experience have also said so.
However, the FDNY command at the time didn't have this certainty (and you can't blame them for that), so your underlying statement is correct.
Your point that almost no one was rescued by the rescuers is true. But a few people were in fact rescued, even carried out bodily.
More important, quick action by the FDNY in closing the doors from the WTC to the outside saved many people from being killed by jumpers. Other crowd control measures also insured that everybody who got to the base of the towers survived, that no one strayed into harm's way from outside the towers, and that those in adjacent buildings almost all survived.
Without the FDNY, many more people would have died. Almost all of the lives were saved in very mundane ways though, not dramatic carrying out of injured bodies.
More important, quick action by the FDNY in closing the doors from the WTC to the outside saved many people from being killed by jumpers. Other crowd control measures also insured that everybody who got to the base of the towers survived, that no one strayed into harm's way from outside the towers, and that those in adjacent buildings almost all survived.
True, but on the other hand that decision could have proven disastrously wrong. Evacuating people through the concourse rather than out the ground-level doors increased the time needed to get everyone out to safety. Had one of the towers come down more quickly, this slower evacuation method could have meant that hundreds or even thousands of people were still in or right underneath that tower when it came down. Far more people would have died in that situation than would have been hit by jumpers had they left the towers by the plaza-level doors.
The engineer who designed the towers is on record (in print) as saying he was sure they would fall as soon as he heard about the attack.
This is quite surprising, given that the designer of the WTC died on February 7th, 1986.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Not architect (Yamasaki), engineer. His name is Robertson and he's still alive.
I would agree somewhat. My thoughts are that the EARLY space missions, particularly the crew of the first moon landing and definitely the men of the Apollo 13 were heroes to the core (accomplishing extraordinary feats under unusual circumstances)...but ever since NASA went with the Space Shuttle Program the flights have become routine launches. The vehicle itself is essentially a 'pick-up truck' with wings.
Perception over reality. If you're average pick-up line had a 1.7 percent catostrophic failure rate for each time someone takes it out of the garage, odds are NTSA would probably be ordering a recall by now.
The fact that trips into space have become more common and the lack of any easily-graspable new goal, such as a manned lunar landing or a future trip to Mars, make the trips seem dull to the public. That translates into thinking that dull=safe, which as Saturday showed, definitely is not the case.
That translates into thinking that dull=safe, which as Saturday showed, definitely is not the case.
And something that occured to me in that vein is the fact that many of us particpate in one of the most dangerous things we can do. We get in our cars and drive where we are going, safe in our minds that nothing will happen to us.
In a country where, on average, 50,000 people die from automobile accidents and thousands more are injured, many seriously.
And, WE NEVER EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.
Driving is so disgustingly dangerous that if we DID think about it, we'd probably throw up. Mind you, in NYC our drivers come from sixty different countries, AT LEAST, and they ALL follow the traffic laws of their country of origin. Native New Yorkers follow no traffic law at all. ;-)
Down here in Baltimore we have our share of autos driven with the loose nut being the one holding the wheel.
I find SUV drivers the worse ones of all, they believe that they and they alone own the road and everyone else can just stay the hell out of the way.
Having pushed large, usually railed vehicles on the streets with the sometimes disturbing habit of not stopping when you want to, I have a healthy respect of speeds and the law of physics. I've been driving for almost 40 years with only one accident that wasn't my fault.
>>> I've been driving for almost 40 years with only one accident that wasn't my fault. <<<<
And how many that were your fault?? :-)
Tom
Zero. I have a very good auto insurance rating and I fully intend to keep it.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Tom...I was thinking the same exact thing.
Guess we all gotta watch how we word things.
That's probably because we calculate (wrongly, based on the fatality rates) that if something goes wrong with our car, SUV, pick-up or whatever, we can simply stop the car, get out and theoretically, we're safe.
With the shuttle, or a commercial or private aircraft where we're not the pilot, if a problem occurrs at 3,000 feet, 40,000 feet or 200,000 feet, stopping and getting out is not an option -- if a malfunction happens up there, either you're toast or your life is in the pilot's hands. So even though fewer problems are likely to occur with commercial aviation (the shuttle is another story), the average person feels more in control behind the wheel of their vehicle and therefore feels safer there, even if all data proves otherwise.
"What did they do that was more heroic than the typical passenger in an aircraft that falls from the sky?"
Space flight is inherently dangerous. NASA places the odds of dying in a Space Shuttle accident at about 1:350; looking at the history of the entire space program, I'd put the odds at 1:40 or so.
Compare that to the risk of being a passenger on a civil airliner.
Essentially, the astronauts volunteered to place themselves at far, far higher risk of death than the average traveler for the benefit of science and society.
They are truly heroes.
Civilain airliners can (and do) encounter mechanical and other problems that cause them to fall from the sky....would you consider casualities heros as well?
The benefits of the work done in space for the benefit of science/society is minimal at best....Tang and Velcro were two of the best things to come out of the space program. Some of the experiments that they are doing in space can be artificially recreated here on earth.
Hmmmmm. Well, I guess the reason for space exploration is the same reason us monkeys finally decided to climb down from the trees and start kicking up some mud. You do realize of course, don't you, that exploring space is like leaving the nest. We have to do it.
Either that, or we stay huddled in our dank caves, screetching in fear and cowardice at every lightning bolt. Even if the "we" in this case is the smartest and ballsiest of us.
Uh...I'm not denying that "we" should venture into space...my problem is that the SPACE SHUTTLE PROGRAM has very little to do with GOING BEYOND earth orbit...our space program should have continued with the Apollo/Saturn IV heavy-multi-staged rockets. We would've been able to get MORE into orbit in LESS time, and with less hazards as the technology was tried-and-true...this is how the Soviets got alot done in space in very little time (albiet not getting a man on the moon first)...
Furthermore...until mankind finds another mode of transport into the heavens, there will likely NOT be any colonization of any planets in this or any other solar system. The expense and equipment needed to provide oxygen, food, waste removal, living quaters, etc. for even ONE human being on a prolonged space flight makes it virtually impossible to be achieved (with current and forseeable technology).
The problem with that approach is that you cannot fly into flying, we need prep work before we can truely go beyond earth and stay there. Apollo was an odd fluke, the government was willing to throw billions into a public relations coup, and in the process set the space program back a good 10-20 years when we got back. We didn't assemble bases from which to work, we didn't leave behind anything (other than LC-39A and B, which both the Saturn V and Shuttle use, the latter only after great modification) that would help us get back into space. Apollo and the Saturn IB or V rocket could be seen as one of the greatest boondoggles of all time, McDonnell Douglas had their Big Gemini that could have done the job cheaper faster and done it repeatedly, GE released a drawing for a Manned Lunar spacecraft which the soviets copied and made their tremendously successful Soyuz off of.
Werner von Braun was right, we should have concentrated on space stations first, planetary bodies second. The idea of launching a whole moon rocket from the earth is nearly laughable, and yet that's what we did, virtually no construction in orbit. We need a stepping stone before we try for mars, jupiter or even the moon again, it's just too far to expect a rocket launched from earth to fly. We've had only one true manned spacecraft (that is, not an ICBM that happens to go 2000 or so MPH faster, some lifting body shuttle, or a relatively unmanuverable station), the LEM from the Apollo missions, which epitomized what can be done with spacecraft design when freed from the requirements of an atmosphere. Since then several spacecraft have been proposed Space Tugs, Mars Craft, and a myriad cold warrior vehicles, armed with bizarre beam weapons, gatling guns and even black paint (flys up to offending satellite, fires an aerosol can of black paint, paint lands on satellite, black paint absorbs sunlight, heats satellite, whose delicate electronics are cooked by the sun).
The problem with the shuttle appearing useless and rather bland next to the mighty Saturn V is that NASA put so much hype into it at first, they were wildly optimistic of it's $/lbs costs, turn around times (at one time they were saying a flight a week, all year long, 52 or so in all! [BTW, in 2002 there were 5 flights, in 2001, 6]) and promised us a space station by the end of the decade. Sadly with the Challenger disaster, along with the close of the cold war, Manned spaceflight took a back seat to more humanitarian goals. During our two year absense the program atrophied, as witnessed by the Hubble Telescope, Galileo probe, and Freedom Space Station. Under these circumstances, any project would have died, even something as mighty as the Apollo/Saturn project, especially something as expensive as the Apollo/Saturn project.
What we need, more than a new shuttle, more than some amazingly heavy safety device (like the escape pod idea that people have been kicking around, even if it had been there, at 200,000ft, Mach 18, it would need it's own tiles just to survive), and more than government oversight, is a brand new design. In 1999 or so, it would seem that all the spacelaunch start-up all went the way of the dot-bombs, Roton, Pathfinder, Phoenix, Conestoga, and the German Rokot, all went completely bust, nearly right around the same time that the X-33 and X-34 were canceled by the government. Today it's the X-37, X-40, and X-43 that seem to hold promise of a future spaceplane, however the X-37 and X-40 are just Rumsfield's playtoys so that he can umm hunt terrorists from 100 miles in space while costing us all billions on a dubious project for Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The Air Force is finally getting it's DynaSoar, and it's gonna cost every penny that caused it to once get canceled. Really the X-43 is the only thing going right now that actually looks like it's investigating technology to replace the space shuttle. However it is supposed to be powered by a scramjet, something that until just a short while ago had yet to achieve net thrust in many many tests, and it looks like it may work someday, but not now. So really we're left with virtually nothing, even the lure of the X-prize couldn't bring about a successful design for a single stage to orbit vehicle.
Hopefully that will change, however I wouldn't hold my breath, the current regime seems to like their unmanned combat spacecraft, the economy's in the dump which means no investment money that drove the last boom in spacecraft design, and also this administration has shown exactly zero willingness to spend money on spaceflight. I'd expect that last one to change, ever so slightly, but, all in all, the Second Ave Subway has about the same chance of being built as the follow-on to the Space Transportation System (Shuttle) does.
What the public does not know is history. The X-15 rocket plane was part of a program to develop a 'manned orbiting bombing platform' out of reach of Soviet missles. The next step was the HLB-2 'lifting body aircraft' dubbed the 'bathtub.' Upon signage of nuclear non proliferation treaties and peaceful use of space, all programs were scrapped. The space shuttles reincarnated the concept of unpowered re-entry vehicles. What has not taken place is the creation of nuclear/ion powered space vehicles because of the treaties. It is time to re-asses the concept of X-15 and improve upon the Pegasus launch vehicle. Just check out how many ' little LEOS' are floating about. CI peter
[HLB-2 'lifting body aircraft' dubbed the 'bathtub']
Peter, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't some crash-footage of that lifting body vehicle used in the opening credits of the old 'Six Million Dollar Man' series? (They used the real NASA footage).
Yep yep, the X-15's direct progenitor was the Navaho, an early attempt at a ballistic missile using ideas from the Nazi A-9 and the Saenger antipodal bomber. The Navaho consisted of a booster rocket with a winged upper stage, the upper stage quite obviously developed into the X-15. The familiar resemblance can be really seen in the never built X-15C and X-15/Navaho (which used the booster from the original navaho to boost an X-15A2 into orbit, more than 15 years before the shuttle did it). The lower booster stage's Aerodyne rocket engines became the basic models for the Atlas, Titan and Thor engines that powered our ICBMs and early launch vehicles.
It's amazing how much we have forgotten, all kinds of good ideas just keep coming back to bite us in the arsche. MOL, Star Wars (SDI), DynaSoar, and a whole host of simply wonderful abortions of thought from the bad old days of the '60's. The X-40 and X-37 are just some republican congress peepholes wanting to keep jobs in their district, it just happens that they suit Rumsfeld's need for a new DOD project to break all the Space Peace Treaties, just like we spat on the ABM treaty. I hear that because the Kinetic Kill Vehicle on the NMD is too hard to do, Bush's regime, at his urging, is now looking at nuclear ABM options for interception, this must be conclusive proof that he was bombed out on god knows what at least up until the early eighties. Has he and his minions forgotten that Nuke in Space=EMP, EMP=Satellite no work, Car no start, and computers go fizzle. AND THIS IS FROM OUR OWN DEFENSIVE MISSILE!
Actually Orbital Sciences, makers of the Pegasus air launched LV, is working on a Castor 120 (the Castor 120 is otherwise known as the first stage of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM) powered Pegasus launched from the roof of a 747, like the space shuttle was once carried. They're promising 3000kg to LEO, which is 2/3's more than the ground launched variant. One of the nice things about air launching is that you are not fixed into launch site geometry. For example, Kennedy and Cape Canaveral can only fire out over the ocean, the same is true for Vandenberg, thus Kennedy cannot fire to extremely high inclination orbits without placing Miami or the Carolinas in danger, and Vandenberg can only fire into a High Inclinatio polar orbit, or a retrograde orbit, not into LEO orbits, since then they'd be lofting Titan IIIDs or IVs back over the LA basin, not a good idea. On the other hand, an air launched rocket can be flown 200 miles out to sea, and launched in whatever direction you want, even fly down to the equator, line up 90 degrees east and gain a remarkable boost from the spin of the earth at that distance from the poles, thus raising the payload to GEO, and lowering your costs.
Really we don't need reusables for cargo, maybe the SRBs from the shuttle for strap-ons, but really the only place that the savings justify the initial cost of a reusable spacecraft is in manned spacecraft. You spend so much always making a new life support system every time you fly that it just makes sense to get back your spacecraft from the first mission, assuming that you don't have to completely strip and rebuild the craft after every launch. Cargo can function perfectly well in a vacuum, in fact all satellites had better damn well function in a vacuum. Thus expendibles will do just fine for the time being, although at some time reusable lower and strap-on rockets should be developed, since that's where a lot of the materials and complexity in building an expendible launcher lies, plus, recovering an upper stage from an orbital velocity would require tiles or heat shields of some form, which takes from the bottom line.
One definite way to improve the efficiency of an expendible launcher is to do more projects along the lines of SeaLaunch. Russia's two launch sites, Plesetsk and Baikonur, are 63 and 45 degrees above the equator, respectively. This means that to get a 0 degree plane (necessary for a Geosynchronous Orbit [the kind used by your direct TV system], the satellite must turn some 45 degrees off it's plane to the necessary plane. This requires fuel, which must be lifted to orbit, which raises the launch weight of the whole affair at the pad, resulting in monsters like the Proton rockets (in the weight class of our Titan IV and ESA's Ariane V rockets) for jobs that our Atlas and Delta rockets could have handled from the cape, and which the even lighter Ariane III or IV could have handled from Kourou, French Guinea, just 10 degrees above the equator. Sea Launch fixes that by moving the launchpad to just below the equator and firing off where nobody will be bothered. Their Zenit-3SL cannot even reach a geosynchronous orbit from Baikonur, yet from SeaLaunch it will lift 3000kg to orbit, without the satellite needing it's own perigee kick engine. Plus it can fire in any direction, making basically all imaginable orbits possible. My mouth absolutely salavates at the idea of an Energia being fired from some sea launch type platform, if it can put 88,000kg into LEO from Baikonur, I wonder what it could put into GEO from some platform on the equator? Heck, with enough money, Clarke's big spinning space station could be assembled in short order from these launchers. Course the platform would need to be the size or weight of a couple of Aircraft Carriers, but it might be worth it!
Thus it would seem to me that the ideal system is one where crew travels via a HOTOL Shuttle, like the Pathfinder, Saenger II, or UK's HOTOL. In the meantime, heavy cargo travels via expendible LVs like the Zenit off the SeaLaunch, along with some Baikonur, Canaveral, and Kourou launches just for good effect. It's a mistake to try and combine a Heavy-Lift launch vehicle and a reusable spacecraft, both the US Shuttle and the Soviet's Buran tried and failed, it's better for the time being to leave the two groups to themselves.
Again, you're dead on on the nuclear part. Ion drives, on the other hand, are quickly becoming the powerplant of the future, since it appears to have none of the "yucky" problems that the nuke drives have. It's just two or three plates with holes in them, Galladium ions fly out of the front, and are accelerated out the back by a series of plates, resulting in forward motion. All you need is a source of electric power (usually solar, but it could be RTGs, Nuclear Reactors, or Electrodynamic Tether) to place an electromagnetic force on the plates.
I will never understand people's unwillingness to actually use nuclear-drives in space. NERVA was practically ready by the end of 60s, we just didn't have the political will, or the bases in space to support it. The best enviro-nuts were the people running around screaming about Cassini's RTG, they did everything to try and stop it, but NASA got it off, even once gone the nuts were claiming that on it's gravitational sling shot past the earth it would reenter and give us all .0000003 grams of plutonium 241. It's about time we actually used nuclear space drives, we're not going to get anywhere just piddling around with LH2 and LOX or UDMH and N2O4, and it's about time we went somewhere.
Anyway, if you made it this far, congrats, you have more patience for this kind of stuff than I do, just hope I was somewhat lucid. I should save this, it might be good for a small paper someday.
Thanks for the details. I remember the dynasoar too. Heh.
EMP ... I've posted this link before, might amuse you ... and to think, our *OWN* cowboy politicos could put us back into the Taliban technology era with just ONE of these things ... yep, I'm all for removing those nice relays, vacuum tubes and other electromechanical stuff that might survive one of these and go with Microsoft Train (tm) ...
EMP bombs
Oh, lovely. One more reason for me not to sleep at night. What man invents, man uses...
That's one reason why some of the old antique technology still has advantages over this solid-state Bill Gates mumbo jumbo. Also part of the reason why the Russkies and the Chinese STILL use vacuum tubes and relays for critical military infrastructure. Their stuff will still work after an EMP event. :(
And so will most of NYCTA ... excepting the R142's and 143's of course.
Hmm, I must admit that the first time I heard of that thing was the last time you posted it. It is from Popular Mechanics, and thus open to a certain amount of doubt, I'm not saying it's false, but PM has a tendancy to go for more flare than substance. I know for a fact that they were dead wrong by claiming the US was in the forefront of EMP weapon development. Russia had us beat all hollow on that account, their Fractional Orbital Bombardment System could loft a Spy-Satellite looking nuke out of Plesetsk, it'd go most of an orbit (thus Fractional Orbit), then, when it's just above the atmosphere and the US, it'd detonate. No mushroom cloud, no shockwave, just a bright light, some cancer cases, and billions of dollars of IC's down the drain. They had monster 10 megaton EMP devices that didn't even have reentry shields, they never were meant to face the atmosphere.
I'm not into the intricacies of the theory of electricity and so on, so this thing kinda float over my head. I don't get how explosives destroying a charged coil can create a strong electromagnetic pulse. Plus they seem to be describing small, pipe bomb devices causing havoc over a vast area. This seems to violate some laws of thermodynamics, you cannot get out more energy than you put in. To affect a city, I'd think you would need a huge amount of explosives, and a bunch of power. Now neither of those is hard to aquire seperately, and most likely those could be hidden. Still, it's not a suitcase nuke or something, perhaps a storage garage, apartment, or something similar could be used. Damn, thats scary.
We've come full circle, from stones hurled at villages, resulting in the construction of walls, later full fortresses and castles, to electronic and electromagnetic weapons which require the building of protection around our vital electronics. Farady cages could become the castle walls of the future. Today physical castles are about as outdated as can be, shells can be lobbed over them, through them, and they can be destroyed by even the most moderate of explosive devices. In the ether, on the other hand, nobody has yet gained the advantage, the attackers have the advantage because the defenders simply have yet to erect the walls, but when erected those walls may very well protect every bit as much as a Castle. Someday EMP hardening, Farady cages, and anti-virus programs will not be enough, in the battle between warhead and armor, eventually the warhead always wins, and we'll have to find ways to perhaps fight fire with fire. Notice that current naval ships have very little armor, why put armor on a warship when it can destroy it's primary threat (in the case of most current US naval ships, long range russian anti ship missiles like the SS-N-19, AS-4 and AS-6) at 100+ miles? Thus it may become someday with electronic warfare, but for now we have to build castles, or at least stout defensive works to protect our most vunerable undersides from attack.
Without getting TOO esoteric, the way that such a device works is a very large capacitor gets charged up just before detonation. The voltage is then applied to the coil which is quickly shorted out by the expanding cylinder. This results in the coil getting "tuned" way up into the Microwave region, resulting in a VERY high frequency pulse with a rampup approaching infinity. Military weapons of less power have already been used, this is what they do to "take out" ground radar systems and was used in "Iraq I" ... trust me, the theoreticals ARE based on reality. Not quite a "nuc-u-lar" EMP, but not bad at all since it's closer in and has less atmospheric attenuation. A couple thousand feet away from the ground, its effects would be JUST as severe.
I agree PM has a tendency to not get it right, Ziff Davis and their (ahem) "reporters" barely know how to tie their shoes, much less something more esoteric. When I worked for the NYS PSC though, we studied this at length. Scary stuff.
But let's put it this way - there's something to be said for contactors, drum switches, cam-operated resistances and "old tech" subway cars ... if one of those went off over the city, a good number of subway cars and signals might still work. Go with integrated circuits, PLC's and computers, byebye NYCTA ... "in a flash."
Thank you my friend WDobner. My interests were over thirty years ago
and did not have a FAMILY to support my education. Just skimming the post seeing DYNA SOAR I knew that my brain wasn't jellied despite passing the 'TA ear to ear flashlight test.' Remember Rogallo re-entry vehicles.....predecessor of hang gliders??? In explaining re-entry vehicles to my crew, I had to grab a Roosky to confirm that no Soyuz ever landed in water. You can survive 30 G for a moment but retro firing too late turns your brain into Yoplait. I went the route from Estes to Centuri never going into perchlorate/sugar SRBs.
I stick to the stuff in the can launching 168 grain projectiles beyond 3000 fps because it does not require FAA clearance.
So I grab one of my favorite Rooskies and perform interrogation. 'Youse stole shuttle blueprints and built from scratch.' 'VE ran out of money.' 'Youse built two biggest boosters
and fired one up with LOX/kerosene and it blew up killing high commnand.' 'Yes, I remember.' Thank God for the Rooskies...they'll keep ISS flying
It's pretty heroic boarding a spacecraft, which is basically a glider, in reentry, and knowing the odds are only 75-1 in your favor!
>>> It's pretty heroic boarding a spacecraft, which is basically a glider, in reentry, and knowing the odds are only 75-1 in your favor! <<<
NASA indicated that their confidence level in the space shuttle was much higher, in the range of 350-1 in favor of a safe return.
Let's face it, the word "hero" is hard to define for each person, since it ranges from a "mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability" through the male protagonist of a story to the name for a sandwich.
One of the definitions is "one that shows great courage" which certainly fits astronauts, but it also fits millions of other humans on this planet.
I tend to like a narrower definition as those who do heroic acts involving courage, daring and self sacrifice. Boarding a spacecraft with a 50% chance of safely returning for an important purpose is heroic, boarding a spacecraft which one believes has a 99+% chance of safely returning does not rise to the level of heroism (even if it does not return) for me.
Tom
Passenger airlines don't travel at 25,000 mph. Passenger aircraft have made more than 113 flights. We tend to forget that space travel is incredibly risky and for people to spend a significant portion of their lives training and then actually going to put their lives in danger for the advancement of humankind is a heroic act.
I didn't get a chance to post until now. My wife and I were having breakfast around 8 AM CST (Dallas) when we heard a boom that shook the house to the foundation. I went outside, but I didn't see anything except the birds flying around agitated. I turned on the news and when I saw the news trailer that communication with Columbia was lost. It then occurred to me that what I heard was the sonic boom of the space shuttle. However, the boom sounded as it should when landing in Florida, not coming down in shattered pieces over Texas!
Rest in peace, STS-107 shuttle crew.
Anyone know if Bombardier supplied NASA with shuttle parts?
Even if they did, right now everything is pointing at something hitting the left wing upon takeoff 16 days prior to the disaster.
With the vast amounts of heat generated by the shuttle's re-entry into the atmosphere, all it takes is basically a pinhole in one of those heat reflecting tiles to cause the catastrophe.
Obviously, that is correct...also, I'd suspect the AGE of the shuttle had alot to do with it's structural failure...I mean the thing's been around longer than some SubTalkers (1981)! It should have been retired years ago. (the gov'mt saving bucks instead of lives -- why am I not surprised).
"I'd suspect the AGE of the shuttle had alot to do with it's structural failure"
Gee, you better notify NASA then...I'm sure they're on pins and needles waiting for your expert analysis.
I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. How about letting the investigators do their job and report their findings? Next thing you know, some of the regulars here will start blaming Bruno for this disaster....[LOL!]
Now now, we all know it's Bubba's fault. :)
Fox News did say NASA cut back on safety during the previous administration. Drop Rupert Murdoch on saddam.
Heh. I had faith. Of course, the holders of the House of Representatives had nothing to do with it. After all, we all know that budgets and finance bills originate in the White House. :\
Oh, why am I even bothering? :(
Come to think of it....didn't I see Bruno hiding behind one of the booster rockets just before lift off?
Actually the Columbia has only flown 20% of it's design life. It was supposed to fly 100 missions, however it only wound up flying 20. Also the Shuttles were at one time to fly more than 30 missions per year, now I think we're down to less than 10, possibly less than 5 sometimes. NASA never thought that the maintenance that we now do between flights would be needed, they never counted on needing to rebuild the engines every time it flew.
I saw the news report saying that the Columbia was first launched in 1981, had very outdated equipment and NASA had major budget cuts over the years, which in turn gave the fleets not so much maintenance as it should/could have. I feel that they should of got a new shuttle[but that costs LOTS of money of course], 20 years is long enough, it should of been retired and put on historical display or used for something else.
What do you guys think? I would like your opinions.
1917...The IRT subway line is extended to Ditmars Avenue in Astoria, Queens. The trip from Times Square takes 20 minutes.
Peace,
ANDEE
The REAL Ones!
Great Article in "Classic Trains"
Nice pics in the mag.
Elias
Actually, the current fleet of bi-level coaches are real two level double deckers. The older ones described in this article actually had only one floor level with seats staggered up and down to increase seating capacity. I remember these cars well. They were a unique design that was never copied on any other railroad as far as I know.
And that was the problem - the unique design. It was difficult for car cleaners to do a good job because each seating areas was an individual pit, up or down. Each seating area was a group of 2x2 facing seats, which many people did not like. People in the lower level seats were subject to water dripping from umbrellas on rainy days. When 85 foot MU commuter cars with 3x2 single level seating and a single flat floor were introduced in the early 1950's on the LIRR and NY Central, that design was considered superior from a maintenance and operating standpoint. The original LIRR double deckers lasted till about 1973 when the M1 fleet replaced them.
When Dad and I wnet into the city, I rode on the DDs whenever I could, unfrotuantely, they were usually the smokers. As soon as we would get off the train, Mom would say "UG, Youve been riding in the smokers again."
Oh well, at least you could hang off that bottom step as the train swept into the stations. Try doing that on those split levels!
Elias
I think the first time I rode on one was on a special train from Hempstead to the World's Fair. The train went to Woodside then reversed directions and went onto the Port Washington Line to the Fair. I'm not sure if it stopped at Woodside or if it even went as far as the station.
I rode those World's Fair specials myself...I don't recall them going as far as Woodside -- seemed like they went just far enough past the crossovers connecting the Mainline and Port Washington Branch at WIN Tower to make the reverse moves.
At fare control area N316A (46th Street station V/R/G, Manhattan-bound at 48th Street), there is a sign directing entering "G" passengers to the front of the platform. However, that sign is not at the HEETs (High Entry-Exit Turnstiles) but at the "staffed" turnstiles - which means that a sign intended for "G" riders is visible ONLY when the "G" does NOT stop there!!
Any other cases like that?
In late 2001, sign crews went around slapping 2 bullets on IRT local stations in Manhattan. At the part-time entrance to the 86th Street station, it appears that the gate was locked, and since the sign with the route bullets is behind the gate, the 2 bullet was placed instead outside the gate:
It's still there. (Hmmm.)
Although night-only service is usually not indicated on station entry signage (except, seemingly, on the IRT New Lots branch), one could argue that since the 2 stops at 86th at night, the bullet should remain. But this entrance is only open rush hours!
Unfortunately, I think don't have a photo of it (I'll have to check), but around 1986 or so, Forest Ave on the M used to have "M" and "J" on the sign over both stairways that led to the station (possibly also the other M stations, but only can personally vouch for Forest Ave). I have a photo of the general exterior of the station that shows one of the stairways taken around that time, but I'll have to check one day if you can see the J there. Years later they covered the J with a black sticker, which lasted until a few years ago when they rehabbed the station, and redid the roofs.
I wasn't even a full-fledged railfan at the time, but never understood why it had the J on the sign for a few years.
Anyone know why? To the best of my knowledge, the J never ran to Metropolitan.
Was this some kind of weird service they planned but never implemented?
Maybe for the weekend instead of the shuttle?
Or similar to the way the A has two terminals?
Somebody has to help us out here but I do believe that they ran a few J trains from Metro during the morning rush hours years ago. Maybe about four trains tops. The Fresh Pond yard was never full utilized after the MJ line was stopped so I think they used to store some J's in the FPR yard and ran a few in the earliny AM. It didn't last long.
The AP is reporting a head on collision between a passenger train and a freight train in Zimbabwe has occurred with a large number of casualties. 40 are reported dead.
Human error was cited as the cause. The trains were sent toward each other on the same track because of a "signal mistake." The signals on that remote stretch of rail line had been reported faulty since November.
Adding to the problems were the facts that the freight train was carrying flammable liquids and it is believed that many passengers were carrying cans of gasoline to sell on the black market due to a general shortage of gasoline in the area.
Does it surprise anyone that this gets far less press notice than the loss of seven persons on the space shuttle?
Tom
Actually, I read about this before the Shuttle Disaster, and it was on CNN, but you are right. And IIRC there was a fatal train accident in India this week too.
In the grand scheme of things, the seven are of little account, and I fail to see how they could be more important than the others, but death is a component of life, and not the end of the world. The seven will get more attention here, but in the hereafter they will all rejoice together.
(void where religious sentiments are not allowed)
Elias
That's old news.
When JFK was assassinated, newspapers barely afforded column inches to print anything else.
On the other hand, famine in China between 1961-62 claimed MILLIONS - and no one reported on it at all (the intelligence community knew about it thanks to spy flights and the earliest uses of spy satellites).
One person vs. millions.
And while we're at it, yesterday approximately 100 Americans died in automobile accidents, leaving behind grieving families. That's not news either.
Indeed.
When JFK was assassinated, newspapers barely afforded column inches to print anything else.
Which might be called the Aldous Huxley Effect. Although he was a famous writer, Huxley's death passed almost without attention because he died the same day as JFK was assassinated.
More recently, on the same day as the 9/11 attacks - or possibly the next day, which was practically the same in this context - about 15 American tourists died when a charter plane crashed in the Yucatan. That normally would have gotten a fair amount of attention, but given the timing it was scarcely noted.
Why Did the Kings County Railroad (Later BRT/BMT) route the Broadway/Jamaica Line On Fulton & Crecent St's instead of straight down Jamaica Avenue From Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) Station?
Probably because for many years the el ended at Crescent St. (1893-1917). The station was just north of Fulton St (City Line). Apparently there was no specific plan to run the el all the way to Jamaica; that was not built till the Dual Contracts funded it (1917-1918). And remember that Fulton Street bisects a dense residential and commercial area; Jamaica Avenue west of Crescent borders parks and cemeteries that do not generate ridership.
That's true. Still, it would have been cool to board a *JAY/ZEE* train at Force Tube Avenue. Only in Brooklyn are there street names like THAT!
Thanks for bringing that up. I have been wonderng this for years, does anyone know why this street has this bizarre name?
It has something to do with the underground conduit leading from Ridgewood Reservoir. I believe that the first part of the conduit (the "force tube") is located beneath this street; the remainder is located between or beneath the halves of N/S Conduit Avenue. Those better versed in Brooklyn history can further elaborate on this.
wayne
because there was a water pipe that ran from the ridgewood resevior under 'force tube av' to a gatehouse on, i believe, n. conduit av. pressurized water=force tube. ;o)
Of course! I feel so stupid now.
The water in the Ridgewood Aqueduct ran UP into the Ridgewood Reservoir, not from. Brooklyn got its water from pumps in what is now Nassau County. Hempstead Lake was a reservoir in this system. Sunrise Highway was also built atop the aqueduct. The Southern and Wantagh Parkways run mostly through land that was owned by NYC on account of being part of the Brooklyn watershed.
Hi. Trying to catch up on reading my posts. Very interesting post. Wanted to ask you or anyone else out there, I understand there was a waterworks/pumping station on Atlantic Ave. I thought it was at the intersection of Logan St. on the north side of Atlantic. Now I am not so sure. Do you know where the waterworks was located exactly? I looked at a picture of the Chestnut cut-off from the LIRR on Atlantic Ave. I see a big building with smokestacks but it looks to be at Atlantic and Euclid. I believe this may have been a factory which is now Blue Ridge Farms. Also, I believe I mentioned this on Subtalk before but am not sure so I will ask. Does anyone know of a large tunnel that ran from this pumping station on Atlantic to the Jamaica Bay in a straight north/south direction. Sound like a spill/run-off tunnel. My father-in-law grew up in the area and says that after they decided to not use the waterworks anymore, he and some friends went into the building. He saw these big, what he described as turbines in he floor. He continued to say that he went into this tunnel that went south of his position. Said it was wide and tall enough for two trucks side by side. Any infomation apprciated. Thanks.
Apparently there was no specific plan to run the el all the way to Jamaica; that was not built till the Dual Contracts funded it (1917-1918).
There was pressure to extend the El to Jamaica as early as 1903. Temporary El service from Cypress Hills to Jamaica over Jamaica Ave (on the surface) was started that year.
But the service was withdrawn in a year's time because of
community complaints about these big railroad cars running
down the street.
How far down Jamaica Ave. did the surface service run? As far as Grand Ave (168th St)?
Yes, it was to 168 St. They just had a book on ebay titled Jamaica Trolleys by. V. Seyfried. Excellent book. Don't know if anybody bid on it. Very detailed map in the centerfold.
The terminal station was called Cypress Hills and was located over Crescent Street just south of Jamaica Avenue. Check out the steelwork in this area, you can see evidence that the island platform was once there. Also the stub end of the terminal track is still evident.
wayne
It was the Brooklyn Elevated. KC was the Fulton Street Line.
Andy you the right answer. Fulton Street served a bigger market than you would get by having parks/cemeteries on one side of your tracks.
Does anyone remember when Force Tube Ave's extension into Highland Park was called Snake Hill?
Fulton Street served a bigger market than you would get by having parks/cemeteries on one side of your tracks.
Ain't that the pits! They can VOTE, but they can't ride the trains!
Now, now. The dead only vote Republican. Plus the dead get elected sometimes, too. Just ask the ghost of Mario Merola, Bronx DA. He died a week before Election Day, too late to remove his name from the polls, but he WON. See, lots of things get done by dead people. ;-)
The dead only vote Republican
That's because the great users of dead voters, Boss Tweed and Richard Daley, were Republicans.
Uh, I think you got that a little backwards, Paul. Tweed and Daley are probably turning over in their graves right now having been called a Republican (but, of course, even in their graves, they can still vote...)
He's correct, Paul. William Marcy Tweed, Boss Tweed, was a Democrat, and the Society of Tammany (Tammany Hall) is a Democratic clubhouse in Manhattan TO THIS DAY. The elder Daley (The Whole World is Watching) saw his policemen kicking a$$ from the floor of the Democratic National Convention in 1968. His son is Mayor of Chicago today, proving that BOTH parties elect fathers and sons. But dead people still favor Republicans...
Umm, I didn't want to make it too obvious by putting on the markers. ;-)
To illustrate what a Democratic city New York is, I remember one of the political clubs I worked with to restore Brighton Express service in 1964. There big mahout regaled me with how they were going to vanquish the enemy political clubhouse. The "enemy" were Regular Democrats. They were Reform Democrats.
Umm, I didn't want to make it too obvious by putting on the (SARCASM)(/SARCASM) markers. ;-)
To illustrate what a Democratic city New York is, I remember one of the political clubs I worked with to restore Brighton Express service in 1964. There big mahout regaled me with how they were going to vanquish the enemy political clubhouse. The "enemy" were Regular Democrats. They were Reform Democrats.
Th dead vote Democrat too. Especially in Chicago. They put Kennedy in the White House in 1960!
>>> They can VOTE, but they can't ride the trains! <<<
You are confusing Brooklyn with Chicago. :-)
Tom
Why Did the Kings County Railroad (Later BRT/BMT) route the Broadway/Jamaica Line On Fulton & Crecent St's instead of straight down Jamaica Avenue From Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) Station?
Jamaica Ave was a private toll road at the time the El was built (1893).
Even later there was opposition to the el on Jamaica Ave. When it was first proposed in 1914, residents wanted a subway. The BRT said too expensive. Next, they asked for an el on a side stret (like the later 91st Ave). The BRT said ridership on that el wouldn't justify it's existance.
Why are you conductors so upset that the t/o exam(if there's one) is o/c? Ya'll can take it too. The only difference is that you have first dibs on the job that's it. A conductor with a score of 72 compare with an off the streeter who has a score of 98 will get the job first.
In the case of ATO, how will route, train type, and GO conflicts be resolved? I thought that in a system as complicated as NYC's, with its many interlockings and shared trackage, software couldn't resolve the level of system complexity vs. the number and frequency of trains on the same service.
There's no fundamental reason software can't do all those things.
That doesn't mean that software sufficient to handle NYC's most complex routes exists yet, or that it would be easy to develop and test.
"software couldn't resolve the level of system complexity vs. the number and frequency of trains on the same service"
Of course it would. Computer systems have a much higer capasity to manage complex calcualtions then any human can ever calculate. Remember the first computers were used to help figure out tradgectories of missles and to help build the atomic bomb. The subway system although complex as compared to other transit operations is a far cry in complexity as compared to other applications for which computers are used for. Todays computers have remarkable power.
To use the phone network as an analogy. The phone network is essentially sets of tracks (copper, fiber optics, etc) that has many different interchanges(atm switches and various ancient manual switches, human switches at one point also) and shared trackage(phone lines) between many differnt phone companies. AT&T was forced to develope automated switching (track control) software to manage the growth of it's phone networks. Phone networks are now going through another upgrade to VoIP(voice over IP) which adds another complexity for which it data, vocie and video travel over the same lines as packets of data. Data travels over the IP protocall in packets. The packets don't arive in order. The challege for voIP is to allow the voice to stream and arrive so it is fluid . To do this the voice packets need to be prioritized and routed so that they arive in the right order quickly. These packets don't neccissarily all flow through the same pipe or fiber. A cost based decision on the route each packet based on which route is busy, distance of each route to the end point etc. There are far more packets of various types and priorities(trains), routes(tracks) and switches(interchages) then the NYCT subway system
"GO conflicts be resolved"
Assuming it's 2020 and the entire system is equipted with CBTC and all equitpment is OPTO campable. GO's would be a snap. It is simply a matter of installing the proper route information file into the central train control servers.
Prior to the full implimentation of CBTC system wide, trains would operate with operators during effected periods. Fairly rapid deployment of CBTC/ATO will occur once NYCT feel comfortable with the technology.
An early problem with BART's ATO system was block verification, which led to several minor collisions. It was recognized then that code loops weren't performing housekeeping functions in step with the demands of the system. Your post was excellent, but I'm still wondering if the permutations and combinations inherent to NYCT (including the human factor, i.e., human beings will mess with it) can be adequately managed. In your phone analogy, voice, data, and IPs travel over the system uniformly, regardless of origin, route, or destination. Also, the phone system suffers no perturbations from variable factors, in other words, since the system knows that everything on it proceeds in uniform fashion, conflicts within it are far less likely.
Assuming it's 2020 and ATO/CBTC is in operation, there will still be statistical instability inherent to the system. For example, in stormy weather a tree fouls the tracks but doesn't interrupt the data flow. Therefore under ATO the foul is "invisible" to the system server and stays that way until a train strikes it and creates an absolute-block code loop. The same holds true for persons at stations who jump onto the tracks. This, again, is a perturbation of the system that the server cannot "see". Another problem could arise if a virus was introduced to the system by a saboteur. Right now, the entire subway is virus-proof. ATO/CBTC offers no such protection, especially if the virus comes from a disgruntled TA employee. All in all, I'm still not convinced that NYC can handle ATO in a system designed and built for human hands and eyes...but still I enjoyed reading your post.
Good points.
I think viruses can be prevented by making the ability to download software very restricted and also registered (i.e., if you download a virus you get caught and spend 10 years in jail).
But I do wonder how existing ATO systems deal with the possibility of obstacles on the tracks. At least a human operator can activate the brakes and bring the speed down considerably before impact. I suppose you could have radar and match the reflection against a profile of what the track ahead is supposed to look like, but I doubt anyone does that now.
Perurbations, human interference, multiple retries, and feedback loops from heavy physical movement don't affect phones, but they do affect transit and, for comparison, the Denver Airport BAE automated luggage system, which also had an unprecedented number of merges. It was still ripping open suitcases a year after the airport was supposed to be open. Cost: astronomical, and only in dollars. Guess how many New Yorkers will be permitted to be tossed out of a switch by a computer?
Full disclosure: I'm very pro-ATO, but a switch is a bitch.
My NEXT item was going to deal with switches, but you beat me to it. It's true, too!
You definitely want a far lower error rate on train routings than on phone call routings. No one cares if one phone call in 10,000 is misrouted.
"Denver Airport BAE automated luggage system, which also had an unprecedented number of merges"
I hate to say it but that luggage system is more complex then the NYCT subway system to manage.
just imagine all the possible shapes, sizes, densities of the luggage that needs to be handles. There are far too many unknowns.
In the case of the subways, the switches are known comodities. They are either in one of the states. Left, Right or unknown
"human interference, multiple retries, and feedback loops from heavy physical movement "
Most of these problems relates to the tracks and not the software that controls the switches. Sensors on the tracks would need to be installed to detect humans on the track or an obstruction that would impede the progress of the train. If palform gates are not installed another sensor would need to beep the horn to alert passengers to stand back.
What happans if a rider jumps or gets pushed onto the track when the train is close? Just as now the person ends up under the train.
Well, *literal* human interference, ouch, as always. I mean operater overrides and "GO"-type things which would destabilize the computer's plans for a while. Also, by feedback loops I mean the left-right-maybe determination on the switch. This is a close call on a phone circuit, but it's more like trying to operate an arthritic muscle during a sprint in a close-headway event. You need ZERO error rate determining switch position WHILE you move it.
" For example, in stormy weather a tree fouls the tracks but doesn't interrupt the data flow. Therefore under ATO the foul is "invisible" to the system server and stays that way until a train strikes it and creates an absolute-block code loop. The same holds true for persons at stations who jump onto the tracks. This, again, is a perturbation of the system that the server cannot "see".
These are very good questions. Some sort of sensor system will be needed to be employed to detect obsticals on the track. It is for this reason it is hard for me to imagine ZPTO regardless of whether ATO is employed in the next 20 years.
With this said with a operator aboard, it will allow the MTA to thouroughly test thier ATO algorithms and then add the sensors into the algorithm over time
The sensors would essentially notify the central computer to slow or stop the train. In a ZPTO situation camera should be mounted on the front of the train so that central control can view the problem. If the problem proves to be nothing the train can proceed as normal. If there is a tree on the track. A crew will be sent out to clean it up
"Another problem could arise if a virus was introduced to the system by a saboteur. Right now, the entire subway is virus-proof. ATO/CBTC offers no such protection, especially if the virus comes from a disgruntled TA employee. All in all, I'm still not convinced that NYC can handle ATO in a system designed and built for human hands and eyes... ."
Not likely at all. It is far more likely that someone hijacks a train then introduce a virus to a mission critical system For a few reasons
Lack of opurtunity
1) Virus's exploit commonly available software for which a back door is found. This software is readily available for hackers to find holes usually through trial and error or through documentation that was designed to demonstrate how to link software together. The most common virus's today attack Microsoft crap which has tons of back doors. For example many email virus's utilize MS Outlooks ability to run macros and other programs. This is highly unlikely to happen on a software product which little is known about and is not attached to public networks
2)The computer terminal that have access to make modifications to the system will be locked up far away from the hands of all but the highly paid very senior system admins. I have had the pleasure of touring IBM's southbury CT data center when I interviewed with IBM which houses the main operating computer for JP Morgan Chase. You have a better chance of breaking into the White House and jumping into bed with George and Laura Bush then getting anywhere near these servers. We were practically striped searched and were forced to sign a waver before being allowed to enter the server room.
You would need Super-User system privilges to make any software modification, start-up or shut down the system. These privilges are reserved for only the most senior employees. Mission critical Operating systems such as UNIX can be configured so that only the super-user sitting in front of the main server can make changes.
Won't end users need to use the system to make minor operating changes?
Yes and those changes can be made through an interface. Those users would have no privileges to add software of any kind onto the system.
What about a recursive-loop worm program introduced from the rolling stock back to the server via the positive, or data, rail? Can the data rail be firewalled somehow? It's been my experience that viruses get sent into "secure" systems via the lowest common denominator, not the host server, which, as you said, has the highest level of security anyway.
Even if there are only super-users who can make changes to the system, and a whole platoon of ESU cops guarding the mainframe, still a determined saboteur will find a way: witness recent corruptions of the Internet, worldwide. I agree with you that it's highly unlikely, given the degree of protection such an ATO/CBTC system would probably recieve. But in the variable of human derangement, no level of security will stop a sufficiently determined person. Recall that Matthias Rust flew a little Cessna 172 into Red Square, USSR at the height of the Cold War, and the MOST secure air-defense network in the world (at the time) was unable to detect and shoot him down. Now THAT'S determination.
"witness recent corruptions of the Internet"
Once again over a public network
"recursive-loop worm program introduced from the rolling stock back to the server via the positive, or data, rail? Can the data rail be firewalled somehow"
Anthing can be firewalled. Nothing is fool proof. But once again the person would need a very high degree of knoweldge about a software product that is not readily available to tinker with on one's computer at home. I also highly dought that the roling stocks systems could do much more then communicate it's position and speed.
We'll see. Again though, your technical knowledge is impressive. You know your stuff! I even learned a few things, too.
Actually, what I've seen of sensors (browsing brainlessly at trade shows) is that they are, like cameras, cheap, reliable, and reundundant. You can mount them at track height, rat height and person height anywhere there's a headlight, and query them repeatedly so that you release a little brake air prior to going BIE or getting the computer all in a snit. I thing the collision-avoidance might be the slightly easier part, and more reliable than T/O's.
"The sensors would essentially notify the central computer to slow or stop the train. In a ZPTO situation camera should be mounted on the front of the train so that central control can view the problem. If the problem proves to be nothing the train can proceed as normal. If there is a tree on the track. A crew will be sent out to clean it up "
Actually, lasers would work the best to determine the integrity of the ROW. I mean the dang things can count the number of bowling pins left standing, or the price of asparagus, there should be no trouble to confirm the geometry of the row to a distance of say a half mile, which is sufficient to stop a train.
All of this being so, you still need a T/O to correct the issue. The train may stop short of a drunk on the tracks, but somebody is going to have to climb down there and give the guy the boot. Same if a tree falls across the line (they have trees in your subway? oh well...) He will have to climb down to the ROW with his chain saw and remove it.
The advantage of ATO is reliable on-time service when things are running correctly, the purpose of train crews it to massage things along when they are not.
Elias
Virus's exploit commonly available software for which a back door is found. This software is readily available for hackers to find holes usually through trial and error or through documentation that was designed to demonstrate how to link software together. The most common virus's today attack Microsoft crap which has tons of back doors. For example many email virus's utilize MS Outlooks ability to run macros and other programs. This is highly unlikely to happen on a software product which little is known about and is not attached to public networks.
Don't be too confident. The US Navy is now converting all their shipwide computer systems to Windows NT. That is despite the fact that a crashed NT network already disabled an entire Aegis missile cruiser, dead in the water, and they had to tow it back to port.
MVMs are already using NT. As I recall, a few years ago the MVMs couldn't handle the switch to daylight savings time, and most of them crashed. Someone who remembers that incident a little bit better can fill in the details.
I'm looking forward to the day when I'm on the #7 entering Times Square at full speed, when the onboard NT controller blue-screens and begins rebooting, while the train just continues rolling its merry way past the station and into the stub tunnel...
"I'm looking forward to the day when I'm on the #7 entering Times Square at full speed, when the onboard NT controller blue-screens and begins rebooting, while the train just continues rolling its merry way past the station and into the stub tunnel..."
It's very straightforward to set things up so that the train grinds to a halt if the software is not up and running. Still a bad outcome, but not like the one you're envisioning.
Although the trains would just keep grinding to a halt, if they're anything like my office. I'd pictur a three part fail-safe:
1. The on-board fails to handshake with the central scheduler and the scheduler looks again while the on board starts a tentative braking.
2. If the central computer can't get the on-board restarted, or it can't find the train, it just sends it into BIE.
3. TOTALLY separate from the computers is a front-end infrared sensor array (not laser like the stores, since there's nothing to read), that starts dumping the air to the brakes and then dumps it all when it sees the end of the stub tunnel coming.
But in the case of system server failure, these "fail-safes" could lead to cascade failure of the entire line network, whereas today one T/O in BIE sets his hand brake, inspects his train manually, clears with supervision, and goes on his merry way. In reverting to "manual" to clear a server failure, the time penalty would be considerably greater. In today's world, the words "the system is down" are an all too common phrase.
Yes. Thus the NYC problem. There might be a way to fail a single line dynamically, by yellow-signaling the distant trains, but when the cross lines tie in by switches, you can blow all those little lines' minds, no matter how you try to separate them and connect them only by handshakes.
ATO and automatic train routing are two completely different and independent systems. ATO can be fully implemented with manual "armstrong" interlocking towers if one saw fit to do so. ATO takes a route and then provides trains following that route with speeds to do so safely. Because trains do not pick their own routes you do not need to work automatic routing into the ATO system.
For one reason or another you will always have some sort of line dispatcher. All automatic route selection does is possibly provide for the emilination of some signaling jobs via consolidation. However it does create a huge inflexability in terms of operating practices.
While systems like Washington DC can get away with automatic routing aides as their system is so clockwork, it is not something that I would really recomend for the NYCS. The adoption of computerized routing in some places in the UK has led to many comical problems and the inability to handle things like permissive signaling or freight trains that are longer than any mainline block.
All you need for ATO is to tell the train at all times what speed it should be trying to attain and possibly a special setup to handle stopping at stations. The train's routing can be set by tower operators like always and the signal system then gives the train the speeds it needs to travel that route safely. The speeds would be pre-hard coded for all routes just like any cab signaling system.
Also, keep in mind that the ATO trains will have some sort of human presence. There is no sence letting a skilled professional go to waste so they can do such tasks as telling the system when to accept or not accept a station stop request or even taking manual control of the train.
PATCO ATO works very well (even if it is a single line system). All it uses is a 5 speed cab signal system and trackside transponders that tell a train to initiate an automated station stop proceedure. PATCO T/O's can take manual control at any time or when making special moves through work areas or against the flow of traffic. They can also "cancel" a station stop for the express trains and when some stations close off hours.
You're right, PATCO is an EXCELLENT example of a well thought out system. But as you pointed out, it's one line of a system where, again, the values input for train speeds, station stops, and block verification are all pretty uniform. Human T/O's to oversee the system, as PATCO has, are also a MUST. But I don't think the MTA will spend more than minimums to implement ATO/CBTC here.
Discrete value assignments for trains, stations and blocks are NEVER uniform in NYC, they are a constantly changing variable because different lines interact and intersect with one another. Recall when you were in school as a kid, you learned about "the mean, the median and the most". An ATO/CBTC system server must constantly assess these values in its evaluation of the state of the system. If in 20 years or so, this has been "perfected" as regards safety, I'll take another look. But today, I still believe ATO/CBTC is vulnerable to corruption, including its own internal conflicts. Just call me a Luddite...
Track circut based ATO that has a hard coded speed system with a failsafe 0 code is just about as incorruptable as you can get. A software controlled CBTC system borders on being downright dangerous. Software engineers do not require any form of certification or regulation, but their mistakes have and can kill as many people as a structural/civil engineer.
This is why I am against CBTC. The speeds need to be hard coded at the wire/relay/switch/IC level and then sent to the train via a channel that is resistant to interfereance or tampering. If you have some 30k a year contract techie entering speed control data into
"EZ-CBTC" (TM) from some lowest bidding computer support firm then you'll have trains crashing through curves at 50 mph.
Have you heard of software testing?
First you do extensive tests without passengers.
Then you spend several years with a fully certified T/O in the front of every train, ready to use the brakes if the train behaves improperly.
If NOTHING goes wrong for VERY long periods of time, then maybe it's safe to run trains without the T/O in front.
Needless to say, the above is an oversimplification. In brief, it is possible to adequately test systems before using them. Of course, it's also possible to test insufficiently.
Why are we not seeing SBTC *within* the envelope of block control and track-based maximum speed? For any segment of track, which is INCAPABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES of sending a signal to the cab higher than the posted speed, the computer send the *desired speed based on its schedule. Then it checks the following blocks to see if the train showed up.
Similarly, CBTC is layered on top of ATO. The computer sends the speed signal to the cab, but if the cab already has a yellow or red signal from the TRACK, it CANNOT obey the computer, any more than a human operator could. The computer just adjusts to a "pokey" train.
By your logic we would never see any bugs/problems with well funded commercial programmes like popular Microsoft operating systems.
You cannot know if a software will have bugs unless you test it under all possible conditions. Sure the trains will run fine under normal conditions, but on that one day when train A is at station 3 slightly over the IJ into block X45 due to wet rails and train B is comming up on block X78 2 minutes behind schedual with only 6 cars and train B gets a 50 code around the 10 mph curve.
This is sort of a rant, but still something interesting to think about. Currently, there are three booths at Kings Hwy on the Q line.
1) North side of Kings Hwy, open rush hours only
2) South side of Kings Hwy, open all times
3) Quentin Road and E 16th St, the terminating point of 3 out of the 5 buses that stop in this vicinity. (used to be 4 out of 5 with the B7) (an annoying walk to the two Kings Hwy booths)
Anyway, the proposal is:
1) Close booth and replace with 24 hour HEETs.
2) No changes
3) No changes
What does this leave us with?
1) Two Kings Hwy entrances right across the street from each other, both open 24/7, and both close to each other on the platform.
2) A Kings Hwy entrance that is admittedly more important than the one proposed for 24/7 HEETs that will now still be open part time and get less attention than the one that was originally only open rush hours!
I'm not really complaining. I don't mind walking one city block if it is even that. But wouldn't it make more sense to reopen the Quentin Rd booth to 24/7 like it was before 1996 instead of giving a seemingly useless booth right across the street from another 24/7 booth, additional 24/7 access?
I agree that the Quentin Rd booth should be a 24 hour entrance. The booth currently closes at 9 PM which is a bit early concidering many people work late and are often forced to walk two 1/2 blocks (one on the platform to get to the 24 hour exit) and 1 1/2 outdoors.
My guess is that the MTA wants to roll out the automation process slowly to allow the public to get used to the idea. The Part time entrance across from the 24 hour entrance is an easier sell to the public.
Another concideration is that the Quietin Road entrance handles large volumes of riders coming off buses in batches. It is wise to allow these people to become comfortable with the HEET's at other stations first. Kings Highway was one of the last stations around to have Metrocard installed. Ave U had metrocard nearly a year before Kings highway.
A big proble with HEET'is the location of the screen that tells you if your swipe was accepted. It causes delays because people wait to see if the fare is accepted instead of waling into the gate an it not move. If somehow a sreen could be in a place where a rider can view it as he moved into the turning section that would speed up the process
>>> I'm not really complaining. I don't mind walking one city block if it is even that. <<<
I cannot understand the problem. As you described it, the only change is that an entrance that is now only open during rush hours will be open 24/7 (with HEETs). How does this make anyone walk further than they do now?
Tom
Kings Highway Station has fare control areas.
Two of the Fare control areas are directly across Kings Highway from each other
The third is on E16th street and Qutein Road. 1 Block away from Kings Highway itself
Currently one of the Two Kings Highway(the street) fare controls is the 24 Hour booth. The secound Kings Highway(the street) is a part time booth that will be converted to HEET for 24 hour automated access
His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines
>>> His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines <<<
It sounds like the TA is not going far enough, but should convert both part time booths to HEETs. Probably the TA feels that is not a good political (labor relations) move, and is just closing the one booth with the shortest open time. Maybe the other part time booth will be closed next year.
BTW, what happened to the old one way rotating exit gates with the horizontal bars? Why are they not at exits when booths are closed, and aren't they easier to exit though than HEETs?
Tom
good question
i think crime is a factor in it
They are still around and in fact the TA is installing them at automated entrances as well. There official name is HXT High exit Turnstyles. They are more commenly called iron maidens. The Iron Maidens are needed to allow at least one exit only path. Currently at 34th street the biggest problem is when people want to exit and enter at the same time
The iron maidens are the HEETs (high entry-exit turnstiles), not the HXT.
I like to think of both as Iron Maidens. HXT's are the old Maidens. And the HEETS as the new ones.
>>> HXT's are the old Maidens. <<<
I would tend to think the term "Iron Maiden" would refer to an enclosing device, based on the original torture device. The old HXTs with their openings between all the bars are too open for that name.
Tom
And what's amazing is that the only HXT at Kings Hwy is at the 24/7 booth!!!
The Quentin Road problem seems to be that it is an entrance that is too small to have both HEETs and booths with regular turnstiles. So, they have to close it when the booth is closed. I suppose one option is to put in HEETs instead of regular turnstiles and keep the booth open with its current hours.
Is there a breakdown of the different types of booths that are subject to closing (ie: full-time, all-day part-time, and rush-hour part-time)? I haven't seen it in the papers. If no one has done this, I will try to do so on Monday if I have time.
I am also curious as to how many stations currently do not have booths for access to one direction either 24/7 (eg: 238 St. on the 1 Train) or part-time (eg: Bergen Street F/G) and how these numbers will increase in the future.
The Quentin Road booth could be removed entirely and the turnstiles replaced with HEETs.
I haven't seen a full list of booth hours, but the MTA web site gives the details on each station where a change has been proposed.
If the MTA's plans go through, there will be many more stations without attended access to both platforms. My home station, 86th Street on the 1/9, will have its only access to and from the northbound platform via three HEETs and one HXT, and it's hardly a low-volume station -- over five million annual fare registrations. I've also pointed out the particular problem at 125th Street on the 2/3, the designated transfer point to a bus to the airport. How many people will miss their flights because they can't get out of the station with their luggage?
If the MTA's plans go through, there will be many more stations without attended access to both platforms. My home station, 86th Street on the 1/9, will have its only access to and from the northbound platform via three HEETs and one HXT, and it's hardly a low-volume station -- over five million annual fare registrations.
I would imagine, however, that a relatively small percentage of those fare registrations represent northbound passengers.
I've also pointed out the particular problem at 125th Street on the 2/3, the designated transfer point to a bus to the airport. How many people will miss their flights because they can't get out of the station with their luggage?
That one is a potentially serious problem. If you do attend the upcoming public hearing, as you said you might, it would be a good idea to raise the issue (not that the 3-minute time allotment gives much of an opportunity).
I would imagine, however, that a relatively small percentage of those fare registrations represent northbound passengers.
A relatively small percentage of 5 million is still a very large number.
And each southbound fare registration can be matched up with approximately one northbound exit. With five turnstiles and a gate that the S/A sometimes opens, the crowd from one train has barely left the platform before the next train pulls in and the process repeats. I can't wait to see what will happen with three HEETs, one HXT, and no S/A to open the gate. Maybe NYCT should encourage doubling up on exit to increase throughput.
" Quentin Road problem seems to be that it is an entrance that is too small to have both HEETs and booths with regular turnstiles"
The issue is more political then a space issue. the Qentin Road entrance is the widest of all the entrances at Kings Highway. Kings Highway North Side is the narror entrance. QR entrance is flooded with large volumes of people entering when multiple full buses arrive at once. Exiting, both the expres and local ussually arrive at the same time at kigs highway during rush hour. Like I mentioned on a previous post, Kings Highway was one of the last stations to receive metrocard in 1996. The local politicians were angry that the mta was removing the swing exit gate at kigs highway. Currently the turnstyles at QR have a difficult time handling the exit volume. The s/a often opens the service gate to allow people to exit. There is room for more tyrnstyles at QR but the mta chose not to add more
In addtion the MTA could widen the fare control to the left(south).. Currently there are bath rooms and a large supply room where a newsstand once stood.
Well at Flatbush av on the LIRR, there are at least 30-40 unattended turnstiles, way down the LIRR platforms and such
30-40??? Isn't that an overestimation by, say, 3-4x? There are a few stairways that run between the LIRR and the passageway connecting the Brighton Line with the rest of the Atlantic/Pacific complex, and each stairway has one or two turnstiles (and no, they're not HEETS -- they're regular turnstiles).
David
30-40??? Isn't that an overestimation by, say, 3-4x? There are a few stairways that run between the LIRR and the passageway connecting the Brighton Line with the rest of the Atlantic/Pacific complex, and each stairway has one or two turnstiles (and no, they're not HEETS -- they're regular turnstiles).
Whatever the numbers, the fact remains that there are regular turnstile entrances that are not within the view of a token booth. Yet NYCT maintains that unstaffed station entrances must have HEET's. Could it be that the Flatbush Avenue turnstiles are okay because they're used almost entirely by LIRR riders, who are considered (whether correctly or not) more honest that subway pax?
could be that LIRR riders are considered less of a threat but me and my freinds have jumped many times
"Yet NYCT maintains that unstaffed station entrances must have HEET's"
This policy was most likely not in place when these turnstyles were originally installed. There was also a token booth that was torn down in the mid 90's that was inside the fare control in the hallway that connects the brighton to the irt facing many of the stairways. At the time of this booth closing the policy may have been different
Yes, I also beilve that LIRR riders are percieved as less of a threat due to the fact that most riders have combined monthly metrocard/LIRR passes. In addition it would take a bit of effort to walk through the lirr tracks to reach these stairwells which limits their use by non LIRR riders. Riders who jump turnstyles are generally not the brightest souls and the extra walk would deter them using the entrance.
In addtion I believe these stairwells are closed off at night which further reduces the risk of fare jumpers
Paris has a novel aproach to reduce turnstyle jumping. They have a small door at some stations that is about 3 ft off the ground that prevents people from jumping over the turnstyle. In the paris system the fare card is inserted into the front of the turnstyle and pops out the top. Once the card is inserted the door can be pushed out of the way and you can proceed through the turnstyle. It is still possible but not easy to crawl under or climb over the door. For this to be implimented the metrocard swipe would have to be relocated. This is less obtrusive then HEET's and suitable for high trafic entrances such as QR at kings highway. Combined with computer monitored CCTV this would prove an large deternt
This may prove to be a nice middle ground for the MTA. I will suggest the mta to look into it .
Those aren't HEET's though, those are turnsiles.
It is not even a block, more like 100 yards.
100 yards is more than a block.
Kings Highway Station has fare control areas.
Two of the Fare control areas are directly across Kings Highway from each other
The third is on E16th street and Qutein Road. 1 Block away from Kings Highway itself
http://www.mta.info/nyct/booths/pdf/bkn/kingshwy_q.pdf
Currently one of the Two Kings Highway(the street) fare controls is the 24 Hour booth. The secound Kings Highway(the street) is a part time booth that will be converted to HEET for 24 hour automated access
His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines
The Quentin Rd side of KH station closes at 10 PM NOT 9 PM, but it would make no more sense to have the entrance/exit be open 24 hours a day because:
B2 stops running at 1 AM, B100 earlier at 12 Midnight, 1 AM and 7 PM respectively on M-F, Saturday, and Sunday.
There are more people that would benefit the 24 hour entrance at the north side of KH because they would not have to cross a dangerous street to catch the s/b B82 (The B7 does not run after 8 PM so it is not mentioned here) and will decrease the likelyhood of an accident when people run for the bus. Also you have some major stores open late on the north side (the first Duane Reade, Mcdonalds, a 24/7 Bagel shop near Ocean Ave, etc.).
I really think it's open for debate if the Quentin Road side should have it's weekend hours restored. Maybe 7 AM to 7 PM would be good enough on both days.
Don't forget the B31 runs all night. Anyone whose train comes in 1-2 minutes before the bus leaves will run like a madman to avoid a half-hour wait!!! Especially as this bus goes to an area not covered by an alternative.
"Quentin Rd side of KH station closes at 10 PM NOT 9 PM, but it"
It closes at aprox 9:30. I use this exit at night a few times a week.
"and will decrease the likelyhood of an accident when people run for the bus."
the same can be said for AVE U station. The MTA closed the exit on;y stairway that led to the north side of AVE U off the Coney Island bound platform. It quite dangerouse. One must though oneself infront of a car else it's a 20 min wait during rush hour(B3 come at least 2 in a row sometimes 3 in a row during rush hour kings plaza bound)
I can tell you that the Quentin Rd entrance was not open 24 hrs a day prior to '96. I think it was open from 5 or 6 am to midnight, I think. It was also open weekends, which I don't believe it is anymore.
Also, the B2 and the B100 stop running midnight or 1 a.m. now.
All the more reason to attend the public hearings and complain about King's Highway Booth Closings. If no one attends, then TA brass will assume it's OK with the residents,
He's not objecting to the booth that's closing. He's objecting to the booth that isn't closing and is thus retaining its part-time status.
Exactly!
What's wrong with automation at Kings Hwy north side rush hours? That's actually better since the entrance will be open 24 hours a day, now about Quentin Rd, I don't get why it is a part time booth myself.
Like David Greenberger said in a previous post, I'm not objecting to Kings Hwy north side getting 24/7 access. I'm objecting to the fact that Kings Hwy north side is getting 24/7 access BUT a more busier entrance at Quentin Road is still retaining its part time hours because there are no plans for HEETs there.
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!
Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
I went up to the Tehachapi Loop, 150 miles from home, just to get away from the hustle and bustle of the big city. It wasn't a good day, really bad fog making drivng absolutely treacherous -- about 25-30 feet visibility in many places), and hearing of the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster on the way up. One train, however, had some VERY interesting items on it (yes, relevance to this board!!)
On a pair of 89' flatcars, covered by bright blue tarps with "Siemens" marked on the tarps in white, were what appeared to be a pair of subway cars.
Anyone know who is getting Siemens subway cars? They appeared to be about 75' long or thereabouts, and single-ended (in other words, intended to be married pairs). They had outside disc brake rotors on the trucks. Couldn't tell much else, such as door/window configuration due to the tarps.
I will post a shot of them at alt.binaries.pictures.rail later this evening (around midnight NY time as I have to go to dinner with my wife)....it's now around 9 p.m. NY time.
>>> On a pair of 89' flatcars, covered by bright blue tarps with "Siemens" marked on the tarps in white, were what appeared to be a pair of subway cars. <<<
If they were headed south they were probably going to the L.A. Gold Line.
Tom
Can't be the new cars for the Gold line if they are married pairs and 75' long...the light rail cars, the P2000s are articulated units that I believe are trucked all in one piece...and are a bit longer than 75 feet, IIRC...they might be the P2000s for the LA Gold Line, but I doubt they are 75' long...sallamallah, can you answer this question?
Carlton
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
>>> Can't be the new cars for the Gold line if they are married pairs and 75' long... <<<
Steve will have to clarify his sighting. I doubt that he ran alongside the train with a tape measure. The P2000s are 87' long, but have slanting ends which could cause an estimate of a shorter length. His reason for thinking they might be married pairs was based on a slope at one end and squared other end, like a slant R-40.
If they are heavy rail cars, they may be headed to the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach for shipment anywhere in the world. Siemens does make cars for both the San Diego Trolley and the Tren Urbano in Puerto Rico. I do not know the length of those cars, but neither of them appear to have slanted ends.
Tom
Ah.....San Juan Puerto Rico. I'll bet that's where they are headed.
They are dfinitely subway cars, and not light rail.
I've sent a photo via e-mail.
Did you ever post them to alt.binaries.pictures.rail?
Checked last night (actually early this AM, 1:43 AM, Baltimore time) and no posting by you was evident, unless you use a different name there than here
My apologies....
I didn't realize how tired I was and right after making the post here, went out to dinner, came back and promptly fell asleep.
I posted them early this morning, and they were there just a little bit ago.
Again, my apologies...was just tired from all the driving up there and back (about 150 miles each way plus the local gallivanting...)
>>> I've sent a photo via e-mail. <<<
Thanks for the picture proff. The shape under the tarp in your picture could very well be the same as this picture of the Puerto Rican Tren Urbano being delivered.
Tom
What is the status of the Tren Urbano in Puerto Rico?
Is it me, or are the R142A's on the 4 line filthy as hell. I couldn't believe how a brand new subway car got so dirty on the outside. You can still see the shine on the 6 line but the 4 was covered up in so much grit it lost its shine. What's the deal here, fellas?
Because of the weather the car washes have been closed. Have been since about the middle of January.
I would say the 142a's on the 6 are pretty dirty too. Don't know why but the R142's seem much cleaner than the R142as.
Any car numbers to verify that a R-142A was on the #4 ? Could be an R-142.
As stated before car washing ceases when outside tempertures drop below freezing. When temps rise above this latest deep freeze, car washing will resume.
Bill "Newkirk"
No R-142's on the 4 yet, only R-142A's, R-62's and R-33's. The R-142's are on the 2 and 5.
I haven't got car numbers, but it's very easy to tell the difference between an R142 and R142A.
1) Front storm door window is shorter on R142A
2) Traction motor at acceleration and braking.
3) Different types and characteristics on side LCD signs.
4) Side door window pane screws are outside on R142, inside on R142A.
5) Different openable cab windows.
6) No belt-notch under windows on R142.
7) Way different interiors.
Anything else?
The car washes are closed so expect that more often.
The one I was on last weekend was pretty funky car#7706 R-142A Woodlawn, saw this train over at East 180th yesterday.
THE SUBWAY SYSTEM:
THE IND/BMT ARE INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE IRT-
WHY DOESNT THE MTA JUST MAKE BIGGER STATIONS AND SHAVE PLATFORMS?
THE LIRR AND MNRR IS EVEN HARDER! THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT THIRD RAIL.
SO INSTEAD OF A TRAIN GOING FROM BABYLON TO NEW HAVEN, THEY NEED TWO OF EACH NEW CAR ONe LIRR TYPE ONE MNRR TYPE
WHY DOESNT THE MTA EMBARK ON A COMPATABILITY PROGRAM AND MAKE ALL SUBWAY AND RAILROAD INTERCHANGABLE-
THE COST WILL NOT REALLY BE A FACTOR- SERVICE WILL THOUGH BUT THEY CAN OVERHAUL WHOLE LINES AT A TIME IF THEY HIRE ENOUGH WORKERS TO OVERHAUL AN ENTIRE LINE OVERNIGHT
SORRY ABOUT THE caps
because the radii of the tunnels are not chageable without MASSIVE rebuilding efforts which could not be achieved while maintaining current service.
OTOH I do agree about the third rail issue.
These are hisorical incompatibilities. The MTA in today's harsh economic climate has neither the ability nor the political support to make systemwide infrastructure changes. However, I agree with you otherwise. T'would be nice to take a one seat ride from Queens Village to Stamford, or Wantagh to Wassaic. Progress is being made, though. Soon you'll be able to go from Penn Station to Port Jervis via NJT/MNRR. Stay tuned.
"Soon you'll be able to go from Penn Station to Port Jervis via NJT/MNRR"
When PATH WTC reopens. With a change of trains in Secaucus.
T'would be nice to take a one seat ride from Queens Village to Stamford, or Wantagh to Wassaic.
You forget, perhaps, that Conneticuit does not permit third rails at all.
Maybe LIRR under the wire is not a bad idea, but it would sure LOOK UGLY!
Elias
Catenary is GORGEOUS--particularly multitrack high speed mainlines
Well, it most likely has something to due with the age of equipment. To convert LIRR to match MNCRR or vise versa, the rolling stock has to be either modified or replaced in large numbers at a shot.
Now, if they do 1 line at a time, equipment modified for that line can't run on unmodified lines. Now if equipment breaks down now you as the customer suffered if no non-modified (or modified) equipment is available.
And we all know a contractor or MTA would take forever to complete one line, meaning service interruptions, etc.
Now which are you all for?I ain't saying its right the way TA drags its ass on things, but its reality.
well they are replacing equiptment right now with the new m7s they can over haul the entire system in the summer by declaring no service for a week-optomistic, but possible
Ok, yeah so they can replace all that rolling stock all at once right? You're not going to complain about paying more for a fare for them to do so?
well they can stockpile them and unleash them all at once
The agencies of the MTA used to be seperate companies.
[WHY DOESNT THE MTA JUST MAKE BIGGER STATIONS AND SHAVE PLATFORMS?]
You forgot to add "widen the A-Division tunnels" to your list. Or were you planning to run wide trains through narrow tunnels?
- - - - -
[...THE COST WILL NOT REALLY BE A FACTOR....]
Hello? Earth to Smugglerbuddy? Anybody home?
Enlarging stations and widening tunnels would include new digging; condemning and acquiring LOTS of property; and reinforcing buildings all over the place. All that ain't cheap.
Naturally, you've already done the preliminary engineering and environmental analysis, identified the costs involved, secured funding, and - last but not least - gathered support from politicians for such a massive yet largely invisible project for which they cannot claim credit (because it won't be finished in the short term). Please share the details.
But what is the point. NOBODY wants to go from Babylon to New Haven. They ONLY want to go to New York City (or near-by Bklyn-Queens or NJ). These are COMMUTERS they are going from their homes to work and back.
If someone living in Babylon gets a job in New Haven, they sure as little fishes going to move to CT.
Changing in NYC is no big deal! There is no way you can get a one-seat ride from Anyplace, Long Island to Anyplaceelse, CT or NJ. Buy a car, or change in NYC. simple. Best anyone can hope for is a unified NYC station.
Elias
I beg to differ. If one half gets the "dream" job requiring a suburb to suburb commute, that does not guarantee the other half will want to move let alone disrupt the kids. Item two FWI, VRE and MARC have implemented a reverse commute backhaul discount for persons commuting across DC. In turn the recent thread about Chicago Metra is exactly a "suburban only connector. Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travekers.
"Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travekers."
Uniform TICKETING makes very good sense. There should probably also be a discount for a suburban to suburban trip relative to the sum of the full fare trips to GCT.
But I just don't see spending all the money necessary to make a Stamford to Jamaica trip possible on a single train. Even with Airtrain, at any given time only a tiny fraction of passengers on a Stamford to NYC train will be heading for Jamaica. Most will be heading for Manhattan, and of the rest some will be heading for the Bronx, some for other points in Westchester, some for NJ, some for Brooklyn, and only a small fraction for for Queens and LI.
I would contend that a Stamford to Trenton train would have more appeal because that replaces a much longer and uglier drive than Stamford to some place on LI. But even that trip should just be done as changing at Penn (with well planned connections).
FACT, a run through train can have shorter dwell than a "terminating" train. Thus IMHO ultimately running through Stamford-Trenton makes more sense than the two trying to exchange passengers at Penn. If as others contend Penn is maxed out at present, then even with the diversions to GCT there will be little room for additional trains. In my more pleasant dreams, I see the Hell Gate route coming back to full four track capacity the whole way., and more tunnels under the Hudson. (After all Texans and oil co's are disenfranchised)
"I would contend that a Stamford to Trenton train would have more appeal because that replaces a much longer and uglier drive than Stamford to some place on LI. But even that trip should just be done as changing at Penn (with well planned connections). "
We already have a Stamford-Trenton through line -- it's called Amtrak.
[Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travelers.]
1. ConnDot wants its passengers to travel only within Connecticut or to/from Manhattan. It would never fund any kind of Connecticut-Jamaica service (nor should New York taxpayers be asked to).
2. Connecticut Limousine would yell bloody murder if the state started subsidizing a competing service.
A Connecticut-Jamaica line should run not through GCT but over the Hell Gate bridge.
[They ONLY want to go to New York City (or near-by Bklyn-Queens or NJ). These are COMMUTERS they are going from their homes to work and back.]
So only home-based work trips are allowed, and nobody is to make ANY trip for ANY other purpose? Is there to be no recreation, or family visit, or personal business, or any other "discretionary" type of trip? Must all passengers now certify that they are traveing to a job in the morning and from a job in the evening, as a condition of being allowed to ride?
When did the Gestapo take over the railroads?
So if 80% of riders on a given train are commuters into Manhattan and the remaining 20% are going to a wide variety of destinations in the suburbs and the 5 boroughs, you still don't have enough traffic to justify a through train to single destination.
When LIRR goes to GCT and MNRR goes to Penn, life will be so much easier for suburb-to-suburb trips than it is now. There will be simple train changes in Penn and GCT. That's Nirvana compared to the current situation.
The ultimate next step of direct suburb to suburb trains just isn't going to happen because the traffic isn't there.
When did the Gestapo take over the railroads?
When they started to PAY for equipment and construction!
You anin't going to get no politician to vote in favor of those kinds of expenses, for such little return.
Sure, people can go and visit mommy or even Branford, but that small customer base is NOT going to pay the piper.
Elias
The whole point of the system is that an LIRR train will go from babylon, to GCT, then discharge and take passengers thus becoming a regular MNRR train.
this way they can share equiptment, and instead of a train turning, it will just continue on north or west to New Jersey given the connection
and Second, there should be ONE agency for all the rails, including, NJT, PATH, Port Authority and MTA, and all the rest in the area, so they can best serve the metro population, like when they do a project they can do it in all their best intrests, in one big agency they can not only build better projects, but they can alsoask for more federal money, i.e. the NorthEast Trasit Authority has more weight than all the small agencies
also one fare system on all systems will be better
better yet, send the Bx34 or Bx9 into Westchester(or take the Bx16), tell them to get funpasses, use LI Bus, connect to any buses or trains in Queens, take them to the Bronx, and connect to whatever bus that will take them up north. Or put metrocards on the Bee Lines, that should take care of some of the Westchester and LI commuters for just $4 (or less) a day
You seem to be a bus fan. I've often speculated on the feasibility of running a local/express bus service along the L.I.E. in Nassau-Suffolk counties. That corridor has definitely been maturing lately. There are movie theatres along it. New Hotels, plenty of industrial areas. Lots of housing developments. So why not capitalize upon it?
Run it 24/7. The railroad does. Late night and non rush hours, 1/2 hour headway. Rush hours, at least evey 15 minutes. The locals ride along the (basically) completed service road. Expresses take the main hwy, maybe make stops only at park and rides. Terminals? East, exit 67, Yaphank Rd., at a new transit center at the LIRR station. West? That's a little more difficult. Since this would be a localized service (so as not to directly compete with the LIRR), it would have to be somewhere near the city line. Belmont Racetrack? Maybe the buses could just loop at Little Neck Pkwy.
I've often speculated on the feasibility of running a local/express bus service along the L.I.E. in Nassau-Suffolk counties. That corridor has definitely been maturing lately. There are movie theatres along it. New Hotels, plenty of industrial areas. Lots of housing developments. So why not capitalize upon it?
Run it 24/7. The railroad does. Late night and non rush hours, 1/2 hour headway. Rush hours, at least evey 15 minutes. The locals ride along the (basically) completed service road. Expresses take the main hwy, maybe make stops only at park and rides. Terminals? East, exit 67, Yaphank Rd., at a new transit center at the LIRR station. West? That's a little more difficult. Since this would be a localized service (so as not to directly compete with the LIRR), it would have to be somewhere near the city line. Belmont Racetrack? Maybe the buses could just loop at Little Neck Pkwy.
You'd have to have a number of branches off the line to serve the major employment centers and other destinations. Existing bus service in Nassau and especially Suffolk isn't frequent enough to serve that purpose. Adding the branches would make the simple local/express bus service not quite so simple anymore. Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea, it might be worthy of some study. In fact, I believe Suffolk Bus has tried a somewhat similar service, but with only a few buses and only in rush hour.
See, I would try to avoid that complication. Those connecting services would grow. Suffolk County has a few areas where there are multiple bus routes crossing 495, like in the Hauppauge area and Ronkonkoma. The one express service running now is the Suffolk Clipper. But the schedule is not real friendly to the ideal of this routing. I tried to cut and paste it in here (it's a GIF file) but couldn't do it. So here's the address:
http://www.sct-bus.org/schedules/s-110.gif
I would want to see the corridor itself be the main reason for the service. Not so that I could catch a bus from exit 61 to exit 55 and THEN transfer to a bus going down into Brentwood. That would be one good result of the expressway bus line, sure. But not the main reason.
Our office is a great example of discretionary trips -- visiting potential clients on Long Island, from Stanford. We take the ferry from Bridgeport because we have a car with us at the other end. Inside the City, we'll take a train, because a car is a nuisance. But unless a destination is right at a train station and the schedule is GREAT, we have to drive. We can't be at the mercy of one-hour, two-hour train headways. And the trains can't run more often hoping more people like us go to offices, stores, recreation in the middle of the day. Chicken and egg situation everywhere except Manhattan.
I really want there to be another form of suburb-to-suburb transportation than the automobile, but, unless T/O salaries go to 10 cents an hour or the densities in Ronkonkoma go to midtown Manhattan levels, neither of which anybody wants, then we need a new technology.
If someone living in Babylon gets a job in New Haven, they sure as little fishes going to move to CT.
I suppose they could drive to Pt. Jefferson, take the cross-Sound ferry to Bridgeport, and then Metro North to New Haven. It sure would be a long trip! Though it's worth noting that the ferry does sell monthly commutation tickets.
IF THE COST ISN'T REALLY A FACTOR, ARE YOU VOLUNTEERING TO CONTRIBUTE SOME OF YOUR PAYCHECK EVERY MONTH TO GET THIS DONE? OR MAYBE YOU COULD PUT IT ON YOUR CREDIT CARD?
(SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS)
:0)
Seriously, rail maintenance is a serious business. MTA's operational budget, which includes routine maintenance as well as operations, is over $3 billion per year.
What you're asking for is very expensive, and much of it is not cost-effective to do.
Finally, someone with some common sense. This particular set of postings may be a fantasy to some, but in the realm of reality it's just something that isn't going to happen. Because so many private railroad and transit companies once operated rail systems in New York/New Jersey/Connecticut, it should surprise no one that each system has unique rolling stock that is not compatible with other systems. Tunnel dimensions, propulsion and power systems, station platform heights, all differ. And since each individual system (e.g., LIRR, NYCTA, NJ Transit, PATH, MNCR) is big enough on its own, there is really no long term operational saving to having a common equipment type or pool. Now it would be good to be able to combine some train trips in order to provide true inter-city suburban service in the NY region, but the historical equipment incompatibilities will continue to prevent this in most cases (the Stamford-Trenton train is a good example of a schedule marriage that could happen).
Fact is, there are many more pressing problems that dreaming about common equipment sets that just aren't going to be reality. The regional transit agenceies have been concentrating on improving passenger connectivity between systems (e.g., Secaucus Transfer, LIRR to GCT), so that many inter-city trips within the greater NY region will become reality.
because U makin' sense'...........
Yeah, I know I should've posted this on Bus Talk but I never post there and thought maybe some of the SubTalk regulars would be interested. Anyway, here's the link:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030201/168/3605u.html
Sarge, I guess that's a GM Old Look bus since it looks like a colorful version of Ralph Cramden's coach...
To qutoe the Great One: 'And Awwwwaay we GO!'
>>> I know I should've posted this on Bus Talk <<<
You are right, as usual. But they have really done a good job of restoring the bus. I have a picture of it in its "before" condition in Alabama.
Tom
Was over at the MTA site and found that many reefed Redbird parts are available at the 'Surplus Sales & Salvage' site listed under 'memoribilia and collectibles'. Lots of the 'hot items' are there, but at fairly reasonable prices.(Unfortunately, supplies are limited). Here's the address:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales_new1.htm
Sweet....thanks!
Oh man, I have a question! If you choose to buy a side rollsign, will they give you the key!?
Could you buy stuff less than $250?
Yes you can, if you look at the listings. The hold bars are $15 each! What a bargain!
Read the fine print. Minimum order $250. Unless some of us were to pool orders, it's no can do for me. I just want LOCAL/EXP lenses.
*sigh* Damn that fine print... I'm surprised the MTA isn't that desperate to get rid of all those Redbird parts. They want to suck every last penny from us, don't they?
I'm sure that you would be able to drive a knobless sign with tools that you either already have or could be picked up at any big-box warehouse.
I've had my sign for a month - it's still waiting for me to get some of the grime off of the frame, so it's reading "Not in Service" at the moment.
Mark
Koi
Awesome! Wait, why is a "Car ID" sign $50, when they are currently like $10 at GCT? Oh well, the straps are only $15! Yay!
Obviously, the sales via the MTA online site ARE NOT related to the Transit Museum's sale of similar items.
ok, so the Transit Museum needs to get their act together pronto!
---Brian
I think we should organize a SubTalk GROUP ORDER so that we can get the 15% off. I don't want to pay for shipping, so this order should just be people who live in NYC and/or can go pick the stuff up in person (if that is allowed). Who's in? I personally would love to get a stormdoor and a strap, and if they can still be lit up, exp and local signs.
If you are interested, post here or email me so we can organize this group order ASAP before the good stuff is gone!!!!
Take Pride,
Brian
If you look at the storm doors they appear damaged and are minus their handles/locks...looks rather ugly to me. BUT, I doubt if the Transit Museum will be selling storm doors, so it's probably worth it for the die-hard Redbird fan...
I'd try to ask for a door with a handle and in better condition.
Or, rent some scuba gear and see if you can find something in a better condition at the bottom of the Atlantic...
I would love to buy that controller. Only that it's way over-priced. I bought one at the Hoboken 2001 festival for only $25. $75 is a little too much. We might as well pool our money together and buy a whole redbird car instead of pieces of one. Only problem is, where do we put it?
Hmmm.
My parents live out in the country. I could probably find some land out there to put it on. But why would they charge us? They aren't making any money by putting them on to the barges. They should just give us a redbird for free if we pay the costs to take it off the property.
---Brian
Like they say, nothing is given away free.
OOOOOooooo oooooooo!!!!
I want the "76th Street & Pitkin Avenue Exit Sign"!!!!!!
Paul...don't you know you'd have to go down there and retrieve it yourself? :)
Those prices!!!
Who does the MTA think they are? eBay?
Apparently, that's what they're basing their prices on -- the going rate of same or similar items at Ebay.
Those prices are ridiculous. $50 for a number plate? $300 for a side sign assembly? This makes those people on eBay look like the Dollar Store by comparison.
And there are 25 or 50 of every item available - haven't they ever heard of the concept of supply-and-demand? Some joker may be able to fetch $100 or so on eBay if the buyers think that this is a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity. When your selling 50 of these, though, I just don't see the demand being there at these price levels.
Jim D.
Thank you. Besides, wait for the 2003 Hoboken festival. You may get 70% off from these prices. I saw the redbird side sign for only $100 if I remember correctly. Maybe a little more, maybe less.
When is the Hoboken festival typically held?
JD
Usually around September.
Jimmy
The Hoboken Festival has gone under the name “Try Transit Festival” over the past number of years. The dates have usually been posted in the NJ Transit free publication FYI as well as online and in stations.
Usually, the date for the festival would be set some months prior to the event. So far, though, nothing has appeared in NJT’s online pages, and it is already close to the beginning of August. Rumors continue to persist that there will be no Festival at Hoboken this year.
If you click on the item and read the bottom it says
MAIL OR FAX YOU BEST OFFER.
Which means that these prices are negotiable. The prices listed are mearly list prices.
The sony camacorder I bought last year listed fot $1500 but i walked out the door with it for $900
"Those prices!!! ...Who does the MTA think they are? eBay? "
No.....OY VEY !
Bill "Newkirk"
I said here over a year ago that the TA should sell everything, through trolley museums as well if necessary, and call it a Redbird Relief Fund and give the proceeds to 9/11 victims/families.
How come there are only 25-50 of each of these items? Did the MTA forget how much we might be willing to pay for this stuff?
DANG! No sale ... but at least Salaam can get some on him - a WHOLE foamer glass! Woohoo!
Pity the "controller" is just the top lid and not the whole drum and switch assembly, pity also that the brake stand (pipes cut? who cares?) assembly isn't available either ... THAT'S what I woulda gone for, but would have needed the ENTIRE stands for their switches. Dang. Looks like I'll have to roll my own after all for BVE ...
Jimmy
Jimmy
It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart. Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues.
"It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart."
Exercise, m'boy, exercise! Stations that close? Geez, the train will barely move before it traverses that distance! On the red line (State Street) in Chicago, there's a stretch in the Loop where three or four stations are connected by the same platform and the train barely moves ahead more than a few hundred yards before stopping.
On the red line (State Street) in Chicago, there's a stretch in the Loop where three or four stations are connected by the same platform and the train barely moves ahead more than a few hundred yards before stopping.
That station is so cool! I've only been through there once, but next time I go back to Chicago, I'm going to check it out more thoroughly.
Take Pride,
Brian
I think it's kind of neat that if you miss the train, you can run to catch it at the next "station."
Now what you do is put a string of platforms on the *other* side of the tracks. Only these platforms are continuously moving at the maximum speed of the train.
Sound familiar? Where have you seen this before?
no clue what you are describing
Speer's Endless Railway Train, 1874. It's on the walls at Subway Sandwiches -- the elevated loop concourse over Broadway with the "Ladies Drawing Room" in the foreground. Sixteen miles an hour and the platform moved instead of the trains.
There are some science fiction stories, too, with continuous platforms with/without transfer trains.
Sure. THE ROADS MUST ROLL. Robert A. Heinlein.
For real, Epcot (and probably more of Disney). Some of the rides load by you stepping onto a travelator that moves at the same speed as the ride, so they don’t have to keep starting and stopping.
However, the speed is somewhat less than what we’re looking for in a train.
As for “The Roads Must Roll”, Heinlein never explains how you take a restaurant that’s mounted on a moving roadway going at 70+ MPH and turn it around!
Philadelphia's Market-Frankford line is like that between 15th Street and 11th Street. You can walk along a parallel concourse, or you can ride the train...
I have been to State st, I thought it was cool too, but kinda of ridiculous in a way too, cause it just creeps along then stops, ceeps
some more then stops.
As for NYC, I always thought that 69th/Fisk on the 7 was too
close to 74th St. Standing at 69th, it seemed as if the last care left the platform and the first car was entering 74th.
Now that is close!
The classic in Brooklyn is Cortelyou and Beverley on the Brighton. They are one (albeit, "avenue") block apart.
Well you are right up my alley on this one because I can remember one stop that took forever to reach. It was from 7th Avenue on the Brighton Express to Prospect Park Station back in the late 40's and early 50's. It seemed to take forever to get to PPS so we could jump off the train and head upstairs to Ebbets Field just two blocks away. When I rode the train in October it still seemed like a marathon between stations.
It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart. Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues.
Not so. I take the IRT from Penn Station to Houston Street each workday morning. Most times, I get the 2/3 from Penn to 14th, then transfer to the 1/9 to Houston. Doing so offers little or no time advantage over taking the 1/9 the entire way. I greatly dislike using the 1/9, however, because the quick succession of stops at 28th, 23rd and 18th is highly annoying. It makes the trip seem interminable even though the actual time loss is quite modest.
Well, isn't that the nature of the beast? Each of the local stops has a large population nearby. It doesn't seem right because a rider from Penn has the option of taking two express trains down Seventh to Houston. If you don't want to make local stops....take the express! Isn't that one of the benefits of Manhattan? You saying that the population density that made the original local/express configuration useful has decreased?? If anything, it has increased.
Well, isn't that the nature of the beast? Each of the local stops has a large population nearby. It doesn't seem right because a rider from Penn has the option of taking two express trains down Seventh to Houston. If you don't want to make local stops....take the express! Isn't that one of the benefits of Manhattan? You saying that the population density that made the original local/express configuration useful has decreased?? If anything, it has increased.
I'm not saying that the local stops aren't reasonably busy. They are, at least in the morning. We still have the more or less philosophical question of whether it was wise for the IRT designers to have put three local stations in the space of a mile. Today, maybe, it's turned out to be a reasonably good decision, but had there been only one or two station in that stretch people would have adjusted fine and today there'd be no clamor for building more.
The five-block distance for the local station on the IRT south of 42nd St. was probably done because that's pretty much the way the Manhattan Elevated had their station seperations set up when the lines were built. The BMT followed suit between Madison and Herald Square with the 28th St. stop, but their 14th St. station was further to the north than the IRT's original Union Square platform, so 18th St. was apparently deemed unnecessary.
The Manhattan El's spacing, in turn, was probably an attempt to replicate as closely as possible, the distances between stops, and the fact that the original IRT local trains were only one block (250 feet) long instead of two made the five block distances a little more easy to justify in terms of starting and stopping.
The original PATH Sixth Ave. line also followed these spacing patterns, with stops at 9th, 14th, 19th, 23rd, 28th and 33rd, so apparently the people who ran the companies thought they were far enough apart not to cannibalize customers from one station to serve another.
The IND did drop the 28th and 18th St. stops, but under the original Sixth Ave. entrance locations, the 34th St. station had an entrance at 35th, while the 42nd St. station had an entrance at 38th, so that's an even shorter distance than the 14th-18th split on the IRT. On Eighth Ave, the IND tried to create their own answer to putting in fewer stations with the 1150-foot long 42nd St. stop. In the era of the R-10s, with their jet engine/rock concert decibel levels, splitting the location of the uptown and downtown platforms was not a really smart idea for the non-hearing impaired, and the city engineers would end up violating their own rules about station placements further uptown with the 81st and 86th Street stops on CPW.
The Manhattan El's spacing, in turn, was probably an attempt to replicate as closely as possible, the distances between stops, and the fact that the original IRT local trains were only one block (250 feet) long instead of two made the five block distances a little more easy to justify in terms of starting and stopping.
The missing words in this paragraph are "the distance between horse-drawn streetcar stops." Sorry.
First off, NO IND train has a stop at 18 St. Second, the 6 Av express skips 14 and 23 St [when the B & D return to Brooklyn]. It certainly didn't bring the value down of those streets on 6 & 8 Aves.
I know. My point was, if it was good enough for lower Park Ave and Seventh Ave South, the design philosophy should have been followed with the IND construction.
Well, that was the IRT's philosiphy. Plus, you can't have stations at 18 St on the IND since it will be too close to 14 St and remember the IRT trains are about 100' shorter than the IND.
You forget, that original IRT local stations were only 3 car lengths long. IND design was for long local stops from the drawing board.
Arti
Well, you're right about that. The shorter car lengths along with the shorter trains could have only encouraged the closer local station spacing. I still think it's a good idea though to not have local stations too far apart. The IND system seems to have "stretched" the city somehow. I might even add that it was that design philosophy that has encouraged the "super-block" style of city building. Took it out of the concept of a city made up of distinct neighborhoods all contributing to the greatness of the whole.
The old Manhattan els did have stations closer together, but remember then, the trains were also shorter. When the IRT and BMT lions were built, the trains were aslo shorter, but I do believe that longer distances between stops (particularly in out-lying areas) is a good thing rather than a bad thing.
My daydreams (read the Myrtle-fifth Avenue Subway) posit that all trains coming from the outer boros will be express in Manhattan, and only those trains beginning at South Ferry (Well Battery Park, actually) would be local in Manhattan.
the Express Stops are:..................The Local Stops Are
Brooklyn Center
Wall Street
World Trade Center
Chambers Street
..........................................Spring-Prince
..........................................Washington Square
..........................................14th Street
..........................................23rd Street
34th Street
42nd Street
53rd Street
63rd Street
..........................................116th Street
..........................................125th Street
..........................................135th Street Bronx
..........................................149th Street Bronx
161st Street
Bedford Park Blvd (C) (D)
Mosholu Parkway (4)
And Stops to CoOp-City via Gun Hill Road etc.
Thus you will see that trains from the hinterlands make express stops in the main business ares of Midtown and Downtown, and leave the rest of the stops to a local service designed to serve close-in residential areas. I suspect that I would make platform arrangements at the midtown stops in such a manner as to discourage local to express transfers.
Elias
Union Square LOCAL?? 125th LOCAL?? What are you transferring to, a helicopter?? I'd drop the WTC and Chambers from your list first; they are busy, but most riders get there FROM someplace else and if they need to get there on this line, they can switch to the local at wherever their express crosses this line. More consistent with your philosophy that the express is to get the outlying riders across Manhattan, not to get the busy destinations unloaded from the expresses.
"Union Square LOCAL?? 125th LOCAL?? "
Yes, LOCAL! As far as 125 St goes, it makes one stop at 116th street and the NEXT STOP is 63rd Street. THATS 53 Block NON STOP! they'd hardly know that they were on a local!
The Express trains come in from CoOp-City and Northern The Bronx ;), *those* passengers are hardly interested in 125th Street, and those that are can change to the Local at 161st Street.
These are *New Technology* Subway cars, and run at 80 mph. They *need* some room to run, fellah.
The Express Collects passengers from about 12 stations, and runs them into Manhattan. The Local collects passengers from about 6 Stations north of 116th Street and from another few stations between 34th and Chambers st.
It is a matter of Load Balancing.
Elias
Okay, you're right on 125th. I'm thinking West Side, since I come in on the Concourse, but the IRT lines all switch at 149th or 161st. Since they're narrow, make 'em fast.
One other thought. There is a pattern of average 14 stops -- cross another line -- 14 stops -- reach Midtown complex between 14th and 63rd. What about "near" and "far" expresses, so that practically all the borough lines are expresses and half of them are like the 4 or C in Brooklyn or the V in Queens, stopping at the end of their local run and letting the express continue to make the local stops further out? Cut back on the N, the J, the 6, the D, the Bronx 1, and make them all express through downtown. Make the shorter lines the downtown locals.
Brother Elias: who do you know as the 'New Technology' new tech tech?
I can serve 'Holy Eucharist 1' long before my trainset goes from 59th th 125th. On my last job, I didn't know about unlimited Metropass and used a 'Oxygen long based scooter' with a backpack filled with tools and electronic equipment. A trip from Brooklyn to the Bronx would allow enough time for the 'Mossiach' to return with two Kosher pizzas from 13th Avenue (no offense intended to anyone.)
As for a matter of load balancing, that is probably the nastiest/dirtiest/greasist job when you do Redbird Tech. If you measure a defect in the load sensor valve above truck # 1, you have to climb over the truck to make adjustments with a wrench while watching your gauge hanging in the dark.
Too bad I didn't have the taste for pizza years ago...it would have killed me. The Lord saved me from a little known metabolic disease
and I want TA to send me to school in Coneys Island....I want Kosher pizza because it is 'pepperoni free.' Sorry TA, pizza is improved foccachia and should not be adulterated 'supremo.'
The next pick is coming up. Maybe I stay where I am or maybe I move on to somewhere else. Chances are it will be in the Bronx or Manhattan(207)and hope to keep Sundays free. CI Peter
"It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart"
Then what good is a subway then?? At that rate you mine as well take the damn bus. Subway means faster commute, not a tip toe commute.
"Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. "
Well have you ever thought about walking?? Some stations can not be built at certain locations because of different reason such as sewers, and maybe buildings that are above it that doesn't have good foundation, the train's vibration can probably cause a collapse.
"The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues. "
Hope on a Bus!
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
If properly run, riding a train that stops every five blocks will beat a parallel bus line that stops every two blocks. The point would be, allow more access to the mode of transit that's a step up from a bus.
Yeah, I walk my a** off. I've walked from Van Cortland Park to Scarsdale. I used to walk from Cedar Street near the W.T.C. over the river and through the woods to Bensonhurst. Plenty of times I'll get off a few stops before my station coming home from work. Nothing to it. I walk from Penn Station to the Village all the time. I've walked all over and around Staten Island. I love walking. But we shouldn't confuse personal fitness preferences with designing transportation arteries in the densest of American cities.
Oh yeah. I doubt very much that the reason the IND doesn't have stations on 18th Street and 28th Street is because of geological or utility line reasons.
A bus couldn't possibly handle the crowds at some of the stations that have been brought up in this thread.
On average, it takes about 30 seconds longer to make a stop than to bypass one. Live with the half-minute penalty, take the express, or move a few stops closer to your destination. Manhattan owes its low car ownership rate (22% of households in 2000) largely to a convenient transit system.
Thank you for pointing that out. That's right, the load factor of the train beats the hell out of the bus form factor. Look at it this way: the trains enables "huge chunks" of humanity to traverse the urban landscape in the most efficient fashion. The city is a giant mechanical organism. Trains are its lifeblood circulatory sytem. That train stopping every five blocks or so is just the status quo of the city. Buses are like....free radicals.
The notion of express trains running parallel to the local stations...
ahhh....that's what separates us from the run of the mill animal. The logical efficiency of it leaves me in awe. Think about it. It allows for increasing population density at each local station (with, of course, the caveat "if run efficiently") to be served without needing to expand upon the basic setup. You can't beat that in the built up Big City. The four track river of steel. Local stations every quarter of a mile. Perfection.
A side note. If the reality of "time saved" via switching to an express is not so much actual time saved, so be it. If you're going more than 30 blocks or so, just the appearance of making time, of passing other trains heading in your direction is pleasing, uh, psycologically. And those folks waiting on those local platforms? Don't worry, they'll have the opportunity to experience the same effect after THEY change to the express at the next stop. Unless of course they're going to another local station. In that case, well, no problem. Just stay on board.
The correct answer to a newcomer (like me) asking "Why do you switch to an express when there's no seat and it takes longer?" is "It's a New York thing. You wouldn't understand."
That would make sense if the trains were short, as they were in 1904. But if the system is using 10 car trains and is 600-700 feet long, it makes no sense to have stations that close together. The front of the train would almost be entering one station before the end of the same train left the previous station.
Maybe I'm misguided. But I like the sound of that....
Now that the tokens are going to that big turnstile in the sky, will everyone know what those S - U - B - W - A - Y letters at the top of this screen are made out of? Will we have to replace them with MetroCard origami letters?
* sniff *
I don't think so.
The tokens are classic and will never disappear. At least I hope so! :D
Lets replace them with a pic of a R142/A, or R143 side sign! :)
Well, first, that's not the subtalk logo, it's the logo for the entire site.
Secondly, if they stopped using tokens tomorrow, how long do you think it will take before people REALLY forget what they are?
I doubt we're in any trouble keeping it around for a while longer.
My pacemaker thanks you.
It would be funny as a symbolic gesture on the day that tokens are ever replaced that you change the logo to be made up of MetroCard letters if only for just that day.
man some of you are bossy
Cars 8121-24 will be hooked up to different set of R143's while doing a 1 Year test run to get information about the L line. I don't know if 8117-20 are going to be doing this or are TA doing something eles with them. If I find out I will post it then.
Robert
One more thing about CBTC on the L, I have already spotted one CBTC relay as you enter Halsey Street south bound. There are also other places that are partley done with the wire inplace but not box there for the Relay.
Robert
Robert:
Odds are that an upgraded ("second generation") version of CBTC hardware is being installed on a third set of R-143s, incorporating knowledge gained to date through tests conducted with 8117-8124. You should see this equipment moving around as segments of the project are completed.
It indeed sounds like the upcoming L line GOs are related to CBTC installation. Firm progress at last!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
As a new user living in Brooklyn, I am confused by the following on the Brooklyn-bound 4 train:
Stops Late Night Only
1am to 5am Manhattan
11pm-6am Brooklyn
My stop is Grand Army Plaza. A Brooklyn-bound 4 that I picked up at about 12:20am on a Sunday morning at Lex/59th ran express in Manhattan, and I realized it was running express in Brooklyn, as the announcements at Atlantic Ave said that the next stop was Franklin Ave. Of course, this meant bypassing the next 3 local stops, including Grand Army Plaza. Now, I thought, shouldn't this train be running local in Brooklyn after 11pm? Otherwise I could have / should have just taken a 2 train...
Does anyone know the REAL rules for express/local?
Thanks,
--Steve
P.S. I already checked the 4 schedule on the MTA website, but I couldn't determine how Brooklyn local service was related to the 11pm cutoff...
i do not know, but I suspect...
That it has to do with when the train departs its terminal (for this train, in the Bronx).
In other words, an EXPRESS train does not become a local train just because the clock ran out on it.
I think you can find a timetable on the MTA website that would specify when the first train ran local, and even then you would need to assure that you were on that train, and not the previous train running late.
Elias
Since the #3 runs from 148th Street as late as 11:30 PM, there's no need for the #4 to run local in Brooklyn until after midnight.
The last #3 train from 148St is 11:03pm. Due to arrive at New Lots at 12:03am.
Da Beastmaster
I should clariy that last the #3 train out of 148St on the WEEKDAYS is 11:03pm. Due to arrive at New lots at 12:03am. At that time, the #4 train is express in Bklyn to Franklin Ave.
Da Beastmaster
Looking at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf/t4cur.pdf
the last #4 train from 42nd St on Saturday night that runs even partially express in Brooklyn is the 12:03 AM.
So I guess the train was running late, or they're not obeying the printed schedule. In any case, local in Brooklyn after 11 PM seems contrary to the schedule.
During hours other than overnight the 2 and 3 run local and the 4-5 run express. If there are G.O.s then this can change. Since the 3 does not run overnight the 4 is extended to New Lots and runs local.
When the 4 runs local in Brooklyn they mean it makes all stops from Franklin to New Lots.
There might of been a diversion; maybe track work; which sent trains onto the express track for some late nights. Normally the 4 makes local stops after 11pm when it replaces the 3 in Brooklyn.
The 4 line still runs express from 11 PM to 12:30 AM, New Lots bound only, from Atlantic to Franklin, local from Franklin to Utica. After 12:30 AM, the #4 runs local in Brooklyn.
I have thought long about routes, but how about some fantasy equipment? We all long for the return of the railfan window. But what about the return of the BOTTLECAPS! I liked the Bottlecaps, I liked standing between the cars and holding the grips.
Well, I do not suspect that riding between the cars is a good idea, expecially since I want to bill my new controls as *SAFETY CONTROLS*, but railroads need to be run using man-sized levers not whimpy little computer buttons.
So, my *Safety-Door-Controls*! They are in the same conductor compartments as they are now located, but first there is a step UP to the operating position. Next the windows do not drop down, but rather are enlarged, and open outward like the drive-in window at McDonalds.
But these are not whimpy little windows, they have FRA armoured glass in a strong stainless steel frame, and the 'bottlecaps' are attached to the outer edges of the windows, which are opened outward after the train stops.
OPENING THE CONDUCTOR'S WINDOW opens the train-line doors.
The conductor is now standing head and shoulder above the crowd on the platform, and can see clearly to close the doors and to observe the platform.
OPERATING THE BOTTLECAPS closes the doors, first the rear section and then the front section. When the doors are closed the....
FIRST INDICATION is passed to the T/O. The train may move at no more than 8 MPH. (A FAST walk, the conductor can see if anyone is being dragged) The Conductor my stop the train using the emergency brake if necessary. When the movement of the train is determined to be safe...
THE CONDUCTOR PULLS THE WINDOWS CLOSED which passes the...
SECOND INDICATION to the T/O and the train accelerates smartly to 75 mph (or whatever ATS is on *your* line).
If the conductor fails to close the windows within 150' of movement, the windows close automatically pushing the conductor inside the car. If the conductor is holding the window against this action, the train goes BIE.
The elevated position of the conductor allows better visualization of the platform, as well as protecting the conductor from assault from persons or tossed objects on the platform. The outward opened window also serves to protect the conductor from these things.
That is how I'd design the Conductor's position.
Elias
Needless to say, you got my attention with the title. Heh. Perhaps a little additional armor for the window might be in order so that it takes out pillars (rather than pillars taking out the window) if not closed in time. There's the little matter of observing the platform as you're rolling out, and we'll conveniently forget about the potential liability of an outward window smacking some "customer" as the train rolls out.
I'm one of the throwbacks to the stone age and while I'm older now and concerned about climbing on the outside of cars like a monkey (wasn't when I was 19) ... and for "observing" it was MUCH safer than sticking your head out of a window if you weren't TOO tall, and you could duck in real fast if you had to. Given a choice, that's why I preferred the Arnines myself over the newer cars - you could SEE better from up there above the people on the platform and could determine faster if nobody was getting dragged.
But you could just as easily have fallen if you weren't careful.
I'd like to see a return of trigger boxes, too. Always got a kick out of watching conductors work the doors between cars.
It was real work, kept you thin. :)
The effects didn't last, though :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I left there 30+ years ago, I have an excuse. But I tell ya, being two separate gorillas now ensures nobody screws with me, or I'll SIT on them. :)
Aren't you glad you didn't work the R-1/9s as a conductor on a local route?:)
One direction in the Bronx was local, and often ended up on the local tracks on the Brighton as well. But yeah, all stops would have been a lot worse. But then again, at the end of the day, chances are I'd be able to LIFT an Arnine. :)
I wonder if any conductor was ever tempted to just stay on the step plates all the way from 116th to 72nd on a s/b local. After all, the doors opened to the right for all seven local stops.
It was noisy out there, and if you got caught, you'd go out of service on the spot. You were required to step down before the end of the platform and CLOSE the gates.
In other words, put the guard chain back where it was, right?
You betcha. Dealing with THAT was more annoying than any other part of the job. Bottom first, float it around, drop it down and turn. What a PAIN IN THE BUTT ... over and over and over again. :)
How about a pair of all-glass panes that open like a metro bus (swing out from center and pull back and pocket back to sides)? Full view when open, part view while closing, absorbs impact from/to obstruction/loitering platform passenger and slams conductor back inside if it hits trackside obstruction. Easy to interlock with your door and signal controls, too.
>>> That is how I'd design the Conductor's position. <<<
Why is your design so backward looking?
Why not the following:
CCTV cameras pointing fore and aft mounted at the roof line at the C/R position, (possible extending a few inches when stopped) with high resolution magnifying (or zoom) lens pointing up and down the trainline, delivering color pictures to a console in the conductor's cab with a default split screen, expanding to full screen fore or aft with a push of a button. This way the conductor neither opens his window not sticks his head out of it in normal operation. This way the conductor looks both ways before closing up and watches the whole train as it pulls out of the station.
Dare I say it? It would even be possible to transmit the pictures to the front cab and have one person do both T/O and C/R jobs.
Tom
I'd go for hovering droids with built-in cattle prods which could quickly zizz up and down the trainline, and anybody caught holding the doors or wedging a baby carriage in there would be administered a proper zitz. Upon a clear trainline, it would whistle and provide the indication fairy with a tip. Small automatic weapons would then enforce the "please stand clear of the already closed doors" ...
Then again, you'd have to be a C/R to really appreciate this enhancement.
Has the MTA ever thought of having Platform Screen Doors for NYC Subway Stations? I think it would be best to have Platform Screen Doors at the most busiest Stations, because of the volume of people, they definately need one for Bway ENY Station, because I notice that the stairs are next to the tracks, and I find that very dangerous, a couple of times, I thought I was gonna fall over because of the volume of people on that platform.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
The problem is that because of the system's age, if you put doors on the platform, especially on the B Division, you'd have problems with the doors of the 60-foot cars being at different locations than the ones on the 75-footers (and I believe even the doors on the new R-143s don't perfectly match up with the door positions on the older 60-foot cars in the fleet).
The IRT would be a little easier to work with, but not perfect -- the center door positions on all the cars would match, but the end doors on the R-62s, the R-142s and the remaining Redbirds are slightly different (though a wide enough door opening might solve that problem).
Well the 75 ft. Cars are gonna be gone soon (sigh), maybe they can work with the IRT division for now, because I see that during rush hour there tonssssssssssssss of people on the IRT and that can cause a problem with safety.
Well maybe the Platform Screen Doors can work on the L Line because in a few weeks or days the L Line will be 100% R143 and the stations can finally be installed with Platform Screen Doors. The only way that this will work is if the Platform Doors are wide enough for both 75' and 60' Cars in the B Division.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
What's the definition of "soon" for the demise of the 75-foot cars? It appears that even the 1,700-car R-160 order (assuming all options are taken) won't cut into the 75-footers. The last of the 75-footers (R-68A) are only about 15 years old and should last another 20 years easily (most likely longer, assuming that SMS continues).
David
Today I noticed that Kawasaki had reconstructed their website, it looks much better, I also like the information on the R143 Subway Car.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Thanks, I just checked it out. Really cool! I like the reviews they gave the R-143's and the shots of my favorite, yet aging, Philadelphia Trolleys in their red, white and blue livery.
Chuck Greene
I agree, I like the shots they took for the R143's, I like when the R143 was being built and the pic of all the business buildings in the back of the R143 as it was going, thats a great shot!
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
But they have a picture of an R62A on the 7...
No, that's a picture of a brand new R-62 on the 7. I also found it strange they couldn't get a picture of an R-62 in its home turf on the 4.
Did you see the picture of the R-142a with the tall buildings in the background? where was that picture taken other than that a good web site-far better than the last one. Thanks
I like that pic also! Kawasaki did a good job on this website, the old one sucked badly.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The site lists the width of the 143 as 8' 7".
It looks as if some of the specifications of the R-142A and R-143 were switched with each other. For example, the heaters in the R-142A are listed as being 16kW, while those in the R-143, a larger car, are listed as being 11kW.
David
If I'm interpreting the specifications correctly, both the R-142A and the R-143 have a greater seating capacity than seating-and-standing capacity.
Now there's a trick.
This afternoon on the northbound G, arriving at Roosevelt Avenue, the train operator/conductor announced the usual stop-and-transfer info - and then repeated the announcement in Spanish.
I appreciate the usefulness of Spanish announcements - especially at Roosevelt Avenue station. In fact, I've had to draw on my (very rusty) high-school Spanish several times to assist fellow passengers.
However, I also have to wonder: To what degree does the rulebook allow non-English announcements?
As far as I am aware, the rule book is quite specific in saying that ALL announcements must be made in English.
David
"As far as I am aware, the rule book is quite specific in saying that ALL announcements must be made in English."
Since the T/O did make the announcement in English, that requirement was satisfied. The additional Spanish announcement was a customer-friendly practice which deserves positive recognition.
I seriously doubt that the TA would choose to interpret the rulebook as banning any foreign language announcements (so long as the English one was in fact made) and punish the T/O for it. However, there are meat-headed supervisors out there...
In NYC, no good deed goes unpunished. If one conductor makes Spanish-language announcements, advocates will demand to know why other conductors are not making such announcements.
Then other native-language speakers will begin to demand the same. Look at the ballot.
[Then other native-language speakers will begin to demand the same.]
That would become a very tall order very quickly. Queens alone had 157 nationalities in the 1990 Census, and probably has more now.
I seriously doubt that the TA would choose to interpret the rulebook as banning any foreign language announcements (so long as the English one was in fact made) and punish the T/O for it.
Why not? This is America, not Spain or Mexico. We speak American English here. When I lived in Europe I didn't expect people to make announcements in English for my benefit, I learned their language, and those from other countries who choose to live here should do the same. No one's putting a gun to their head and telling them they have to stay; if they can't be bothered to learn the language then they should pack up and go home. I welcome immigrants who are willing to work and incorporate themselves our society; I do NOT welcome those who wish to insulate themselves from it, to reap its benefits without assuming its responsibilities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I lived in Europe I didn't expect people to make announcements in English for my benefit
It's a popular line that "you don't need to know any languages if you're touring Europe, everyone speaks English." Nonsense! Outside of certain tourist locations, you have a hard time getting by. We were on a DB train, and the conductor asked us a question. Despite a degree in German and having lived there six months, my wife didn't know what the question meant, since it contained a word she'd never encountered. The conductor gave her zero help, didn't try to rephrase the question--this on a mainline train. Then he laughed at her when she pulled out a German-English dictionary.
In tourist places, some will try to cheat you if you look like you'e unfamiliar with the language and/or customs. At a tourist trap I bought a postcard and the woman asked me for fünfzig Pfennig. I knew perfectly well how much that was, but when she saw me looking at my money to pick out a mark, she took the coin, smiled, closed the register and said "Danke" with s big smile. When I asked "fünfzig Pfennig?" she suddenly remembered that I was supposed to get change.
Don't even ask about France.
Unfortunately this is a much diferent evironment than that of Europe, where foreign language speakers are already being catered to (look at DMV, driving test offered in the more prominent languages - now how is that when signs are in English?? Ok shapes but still...) Some City agencies pay a bonus to those who speak Spanish (couldn't that count as discrimination against English-only speakers?).
One day on the J i had this old Spanish man come up to me, spoke to me in Spanish. "I don't understand you sir." "You don't speak Spanish? Why not, it is official language of U.S." Saqdly, that seems to be the attitude out there.
According to a survey report I once read, there are 142 different languages heard spoken in the subway system. In DMV, there are 28 languages recognised of which many are given oral tests, including those who remain illiterate in English. My first experience with someone illiterate was nearly thirty years ago...in a 'defense plant'...I was stunned. He drove ladies from the production lines to and from work depending upon their instructions...was unable to read destination signs on the highway...but he was responsible for 'buttoning up' 19" rack panels chock full of commmunications equipment.
'In the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE BIE Speak English!!!' CI Peter
OK, I'll rephrase what I said. To my knowledge, announcements must be made ONLY in English.
David
Not only that, but the rulebook also says "No improvisation." Its up to the TA if that could be determined as improvisation as well.
Time to pull out the trusty ol' Blue Book...
Well, if your going to use Spanish, that would be the station to use it. Greatest place to live was Jackson Hts, the world in 30 blocks!!
One of the window clerks at the LIRR Ronkonkoma station routinely gives a Spanish announcement for the evening connecting train to Greenport. It's not a bad idea under the circumstances, as a number of Spanish-speaking people use the station and it's not uncommon for people, Spanish-speaking and otherwise, to try and board the Greenport train thinking it's the next train to Penn.
My parents live in Holbrook, and there is a sign on the deli
that says Se habla Espanol.
The island is truly changing.
I think all announcements should be in English and Spanish. New York is becoming as bilingual as Brussels, Montréal, or Barcelona. That's a good thing.
Bilingual? Oh yeah. I hear Russian and Polish on the streets all the time....
What about Hindi and Urdu??? Generic Arabic??? Newurican???
'Do not step upon or cross these tracks.' In the hole, ho ho ho hole, cover your ears BIE Speak English. CI peter
Well, I pulled out the blue book and the TA Rule book, and what I found was nothing. Nothing stating that the announcements must be in English Only. So unless its in a bulletin (which I haven't yet checked), Spanish seems OK to the TA.
I'm not saying that I agree with this, as if you make announcements in Spanish then you must serve the others as well.
You are correct that the Blue Book (as well as the Rule Book) does not state what language the announcements should be in, since that would be stating the obvious. Spanish is, indeed, OK to the TA, when they want it to be, such as Spanish announcements at stations to mind the moving platforms and the like.
But a Conductor who deviates from the Blue Book by making foreign language announcements is likely to find himself reinstructed or otherwise retrained, if only for the reason you so aptly stated, by singling out one community, we are slighting all the others (this is why holiday announcements and store location announcements are verboten as well).
As a matter of fact, the Blue Book was intended to be a script followed by each and every Conductor so that there would be uniformity to the announcement policy. Idiosyncratic announcements a la Harry Nugent were frowned upon. The Book makes this clear by stating in bold caps on p. 3: "This is what we want you to say," followed by samples, where just about the only allowable substitutions are the station names and train lines :-) (And yes Conductors were reinstructed for saying 'Please Stand Clear of the Closing Doors,' instead of the prescribed 'Stand Clear of the Closing Doors Please' announcement.) From this suggested script, one could argue (and I know the author of the book would, although I cannot speak for the present regime) that if they are not in the script, then they violate the RTO policy on announcements.
Sorry to be so long winded.
Those of you familier with the Sea Beach will knno the location of the photo below. I took this photo today. My question is: was this "thing" between the tracks used at one point as a layup area? It looks like it was wide enough for two tracks. I don't think there is any mention of it in the Sea Beach Line Guide on this site. Thanks.
Take Pride,
Brian
I remember that, that's where the Sea Beach goes into the 4th Ave. Did you take that from an R40 Slant?????
Nope, an R-40M.
---Brian
Remnants of the old NY & Sea Beach ROW? I'm not sure where that line had it's northern terminal.
Not a bad guess, but Mark W's answer sounds a bit better. I think you two should fight it out or something :) In all seriousness, I really am wondering what that thing is between the tracks.
---Brian
I rememer now. It's the ramp to the 65th St. ferry terminal. IIRC, The Sea Beach and Bay Ridge branches both shared that terminal prior to the connection to the 4th Ave subway.
The line to the 65th Street ferry. If u look when u ride past, there are ties there still. Abandoned in the 20's I believe.
That's the best answer I've heard all night. How sure are you about that answer?
---Brian
If I wasn't sure, I wouldn't have posted.
Didn't the line to 65th St. Ferry come off the West End line, via the 5th Ave. El? I thought the Sea Beach and the West End were two branches that fed into the 5th Ave. Before Dual Contracts building, that is.
Anyhow- this post is more of a question than a statement of fact, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know more about the early pre-Dual Contracts BRT lines.
AFAIK, The Sea Beach never connected with the 5th Ave EL.
"I'd love to know more about the early pre-Dual Contracts BRT lines."
J-Train Tony, then you'll enjoy Brian Cudahy's new book, "How we got to Coney Island." He discusses your question and so much more.
The West End would have connected to the 39th St Ferry.
And until you can get that book, here's some early history of the BRT lines, from 1878 to 1913, right on this site!
--mark
Not a very pretty picture is it? Oh, the photo is nice but look at the debris and run down state of my Sea Beach line. Do you think the TA will ever get around to just cleaning up the place? It's a disgrace that such a fine line as mine has to traverse in such a seedy run down area. A little custodial and maintainance work could do wonders, but I guess that's whistling in the dark. I believe the picture shown is where the Sea Beach enters the tunnel just after leaving 8th Avenue.
You are correct sir. But you don't know what that thing is between the tracks? I'm shocked! :O
---Brian
That whole line is a disrace. It needs a little custodial work down the whole line, and I'd be willing to go down with Fred and clean it up ourselves. When I get off the damn extra extra list. Probably do a better job too.
Its definitely from a rail line. As Mark W. pointed out (but I never noticed) there are ties, also you see evidence of once existing power lines running alongside and (unless they're NYCT's, but they are pretty beat up and NYCT's are recessed intot he wall) some sort of signal system equipment.
I thought it was part of the old LIRR ROW abandoned a long time ago altough I think it is used for freight rail now.
Maybe Fred purchased the land rights there, he might want to build something on it and have the best view of his Slum-Beach trains passing through, drooling in amazement.
You're a Kool Head Mr. Kool D-----but I don't go in for drafty toilets.
Slum Beach, I like that better then Slow Beach
Had you taken the shot about 30 feet earlier, you would have been able to see the ties yourself. 8-)
This is just a little off topic, but it has to do with trains. I was in DC this PM and rode the wamta oRANGE line out to new Carrolloton to watch some Amtrak Trains(caught 4) The train goes alongside the old Pennsy Mainline, there was a train of full hopper cars of coal. Most of the Cars were CSX, but I counted about 20-25 former Conrail cars.
Above their number were the lettes NYC. Does anyone know if that meant
New York City and if so what does it mean or New York Central.
I am curious
Former New York Central acquisitions. They also had some PRR labelled cars as well as other railroads too in their "shared assets" "collection" ...
When CSX and NS acquired CR, it was decided to apply the reporting mark NYC to all Conrail cars slated to go to CSX. The NYC mark belonged to Conrail because it was the former New York Central's reporting mark.
Yep ... in addition, numerous cars were stenciled as PRR, others RDG (Reading) and other indications of their original "owners" prior to acquisition by Conrail ... the work was done in various yards (including here in Selkirk) where available. All was done in anticipation of the sale as you indicated ...
The RDG car WAS a legacy car with old lettering. Thats why railroads keep old reporting marks registered with the AAR. CR did have a VERY SMALL number of ORIGINAL NYC cars around, so they kept the mark registered. With the "split" coming up, cars for CSX received NICE NEW NYC marks, while cars for NS kept their CR or whatever NON NYC legacy marks were on them.
Yep, not arguing, you're RIGHT ... it was temporary marking ONLY until the deal had been done. But the folks here in Selkirk, and in particular Philly, were charged with FINDING the original cars and making sure that THOSE got the right mark because everybody knew CSX would be whining if they didn't get all the "new and shinies" ... I'm not kidding.
So folks had to FIND the original cars and make certain that they were marked up as what they originally were with paperwork to back it up. It was an incredibly stressful time for the Conrail folks, trying to run a railroad and chase down so much silly stuff.
Stuff that CONRAIL purchased however was largely assigned to PRR and NYC marks based on car numbers in groupings.
Here's a photo of a Reading hopper car photographed in Balmr last May.
This one was in the same cut of cars.
Wow ... wonder how that car escaped the "tagging team?" Lease? Rolled into a coal mine and forgotten? Doing late night shuttle duty on the Sea Beach? :)
tHE LATE NIGHT SHUTTLE On the Sea Beach seems more like it. Now I have to look more closely at CSX Trains near me, Maybe I will find a New Haven,
You WILL post the pic, I trust. :)
If they were from the New York Central, that makes those cars at least 35-36 years old.
The reporting mark NYC was applied IN DECAL FORM right over the CR mark on cars to go to CSX. If a few old cars from the New York Central received these marks, it is sheer coincidence
As best as the story goes, they actually DID track down cars that were original PRR and NYC cars by their serial numbers, making sure that the original cars were properly marked up. Newer acquired cars were done on a basis as you say. But there were folks assigned to figuring out what was what among the junkers because (and I quote) "them CSX crackers are SO whiny" ... and Conrail had already had enough of the arguments as to who got what, so they went back to the car sheets ... and JUST to screw with CSX, some were marked up RDG (to go to NS) just to screw with CSX's people. As the breakup came, the Conrail folks had had *MORE* than a snootful of the CSX kids ...
Actually, both the NYC and PRR reporting marks were acquired from the private persons who had gotten them when they were surrended when Conrail was formed.
CSX & NS paid lots of bucks (a friend of mine got a big payoff from NS and retired from AT&T.) He had the PRR mark on his possesion.
The two reporting marks were used to assign equipment (locomotives and cars) that would be divided between the two companies. CSX got NYC and NS got PRR.
The CSX main line to Philly passes right over the BSM, so we got the "birds eye view") of cars and engines, still carrying Conrail paint with fresh NYC markings. Locomotives in Conrail blue with a new yellow number and NYC on the cab sides.
NS also wound up the freight job that runs on the Light Rail's ex-Northern Central portion, so blue Conrail engines with new numbers and PRR marks on the cab sides became a somewhat familiar sight.
Recently we've been seeing a lot of leased power on the Belt Line. Seems CSX is having trouble in the East controlling their motive power.
Yeah, that makes sense, especially entering "Shared assets" territories. You DO want your motor back if it works. Ah, but there's the rub with CSX. They own a LOT of power that ain't suited to running north of ... oh ... Atlanta. They've got quite a few locomotives that just didn't run anymore (or even START) in temps below -22F that are pretty normal in them yankee states. :)
They've also had a number of what WAS ex-Gonerail and modified for snowbird service run out of water with the motors turning and things like that. But I hear they are indeed short on power and what they need to run up here, they don't have a whole lot of. So they lease until the ice breaks in April. I s'pose ...
The CSX main line to Philly passes right over the BSM...
To illustrate Dan's statement, if you look closely at the right edge of this photo, you can see a BSM streetcar (PCC #7407) waiting to depart on its next trip.
CSX & NS paid lots of bucks (a friend of mine got a big payoff from NS and retired from AT&T.) He had the PRR mark on his possesion.
Seems like a certain friend of yours had been telling you BS. While individuals are permitted to own reporting marks, I don't see why Conrail would give them up, and anyway if they were to give them up, a lot of their equipment would in fact have been out of compliance (I see a bunch of ex-NYC equipment hanging around here up in Western Mass. -- real "NYC" lettering, not the CSX NYC lettering.)
In any case, Conrail did not need to use the PRR and NYC reporting marks. Conrail could have easily registered PRRZ and NYCZ if they just needed a temporary placeholder to pool cars in.
In fact, Conrail also owned other reporting marks besides CR: CRZ, CRR, CRMZ, PC, EL, amongst others. Erie Lackwanna went to Norfolk Southern. For some reason, no one seemed to have retained the New Haven reporting mark -- probably because they didn't have any freight cars worth talking about.
AEM7
tere are not many cars left from the NYC in active service. the NYC and PRR lettering had nothing to do with former railroads only as legal temporary holding railroad .
this since the rights of former NYC and PRR and all predecesor railroads now lays with CSX and NS.
They were, and are indeed. A large number of Conrail shared assets cars were owned by Bethlehem Steel. :)
As long as you can bang out the dents and make them relatively straight, weld on some spare steel, they roll again and again. It's not like Conrail did much better than Amtrak financially. But of course *NOW* CSX is actually SUBSIDIZED out of your taxpayer wallet. Makes a difference, but STILL no new cars that I've seen.
Selkirk, I don't know what you have got against Chicken S**t eXpress, all I've seen is you whine about them. It's like the Green and Red all over again. I'm surprised that it's still going on...
Recently I heard something interesting -- CSX apparently has stepped down the maintenance on the Conrail main. The specs on the maintenance is now 50% of what it used to be, so I was told by a source. It is true that they are inspecting them more often, and managers are more on the ball... but that's because they HAVE to be to run a stressed out railroad that is being pushed further and further to the margin(!)
Everybody that I've heard say bad things about CSX are from Philly. Aside from Selkirk, I don't hear many New Yorkers whine about CSX. Interesting correlation.
AEM7
I guess it's living in a town with lots and lots of former Gonerail, nee CSX employees. They're generally not a happy bunch. Still, we manage to spend more time in the local watering hole talking up what Joe Bruno's up to, but nobody HERE wants to hear THAT. But take away Bruno and CSX, and all I'm left with is talking about 76th Street station. :)
Ya gotta admire a railroad though that doesn't find crowned rails owing to frostbite until the sidewinder shows up to rerail something.
I've observed CSX maintenance (or lack thereof) first hand -- diamonds is the place to watch them, watch the ballast pump and watch the diamond burst open as a train passes... (The one time I saw that happen, I missed all the action -- they were repairing the diamond as I got there).
What's the story about frostbite?
In extremely cold weather (-10 or worse F) rails can contract enough that they split. Along their LENGTH. Unlike your regular "broken rail" that might cut the signalling current, the rail remains "electrically contiguous" and so you're likely to receive a "clear" ... usually they DO break, but sometimes they don't. They just split a bit (profile looks like a "crown") and then when a railcar goes over the defect, the rail turns into rope with about that degree of stiffness. :)
I'm sure there's others who can go into more detail if you want, but that's the gist of it. One of those little surprises that remind you to "WATCH your iron." I'm told this year has been impressive.
In extremely cold weather (-10 or worse F) rails can contract enough that they split. Along their LENGTH.
That's hard to track, and I don't think it's just CSX. The opposite problem is buckle, so if you lay rails when it's too cold, they buckle in hot weather; if you lay them when it's too warm, they split...
From what came out of the Capitol derailment investigation, I am told that CSX's standards for laying CWR (i.e. the temperature window) is not as tight as it could be, but that's a cost issue: utilization of track crew.
You can compensate this by having rail clippers, by the way -- the anti-creep things. The way CSX has their mainlines however, are basically high maintenance -- they are basically substituting labor for capital. Somewhere somebody someday cuts the margin of error too thin (Snow is known for tight budget controls).
Their "frostbite" is probably as bad as any other railroad, or at least as good as you could expect from the level of maintenance input they are putting in. But it's not really their fault -- blame the truckers for the state of the railroad. You know where I am coming from.
AEM7
Absolutely. I've always felt that if taxpayer money is going to build highways and airports, then it should lay TRACK as well. Boy, that oughta put the dittoheads in a tizzy. :)
a web perspective. As a former Maryland resident and stone B&O fan I subscribe to e'mail updates from MARC and VRE. There are constant updates about CSX signal and trackswitch failure engendered delays. There are almost NO similar problems on NS. Statistics do not whine on their own.
to avoid legal hassles in splitting up the former Conrail assets plus fact there is still Conrail as a shared assets devision all equipment to go to CSX was designated as NYC New York Central) and all equipment to go to Norfolk Southern was designated as PRR as an interim measure till both party's agreed on the numbers and cars.
all cars will be repainted and or renumbered for their home railroad, it was only a temporary deal .
Actually, at least on the NS side, all the equipment are in various wholely owned ghost corporations. Basically it is easier to just pave over the old companies rather than change all the ownerships officially. If you look under the number on NS locos they will be marked in small letters SOU, NW or PRR which indicate which ghost company they are help under.
In my Wreck of the Penn Central book they had an ownersip chart for the PC. Many of the original companies that were accquired to form the PRR and NYC still existed as owned subsudaries under the PC. These included some names such as the United Railroads of New Jersey and the Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore.
Companies also have a habbit of "leasing" other companies for 999 years.
When Conrail was being split up, stuff going to CSX was labelled NYC (New York Central) and stuff going to NS was labelled PRR to help keep things straight. This was logical, since CSX got the NYC line through New York state, and NS got the PRR line through Pennsylvania.
Why doesn't the TA ever tell us when the 5 is not running between 180th and 149th? It happened Friday and today. When they raise the fair to 200 dollars, are they cutting back on service advisories, too? Is this going to be everyday on the 5?
I feel your pain. Just put a decimal point between the 2 and the first 0 in 200 just to make us all comfortable, please.
Look at the bright side. Substantial completion on the new signal system is scheduled for early 2004. Then you'll have new signals all the way down the White Plains Road line, and lots of new stations too.
At that time, they'll start the shutdowns to rebuild the Bergen Street interlocking on my F train. By the time that's done, and assuming we're not back to deferred maintenance with signals 40 years older than last time, they may be starting replacing the signals on the Culver from Coney Island to 7th Avenue, which also affects me because I'm at Prosepct Park. And when they're done with THAT, we get the Crosstown signal project from 7th Avenue up to Queens Plaza, which hits me again. And that's just signals!
Of course, if you live on the Dyre line there is no reason to rejoice. We haven't replaced those signals yet, and they are very old, but the design starts next month.
Will the signals make a big difference in train service? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just not familiar with the effects.)
(Will the signals make a big difference in train service? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just not familiar with the effects.))
Not one that you'll notice. What you would have noticed would have been the consequences if the signals hadn't been replaced -- the are obsolete, and parts are becomming hard to come by, so there would have been an increasing number of outages.
What you will notice is fewer construction delays after the project is over. At least you are getting it over with. Supposedly, the four big shutdown weekends were enough to catch up from the time lost due to 9/11.
I guess this is just life. One part or another of the BQE, the FDR or both has been under construction since I first bought a car in 1990.
What do you mean by new stations? Also, will these new signals be of different type? In other words, at 149th GCC, on the Southbound, Red over Green is the signal for the Lexington route. Will that change to Green over Yellow? I assume the old IRT signaling system of Red over Green for diverging, and so fourth, will be gone for good.
The stations won't really be "new," they'll be rebuilt. The exception is Gun Hill Road, which will be replaced with a new, relocated station that has no trace of the former Third Avenue El platforms.
As far as the signals go, they're an NYCT standard installation. The IRT-specific aspects will probably go away.
David
do you think the new 238 Street station will still have the 238 Street signs, poles, and references on the entrance?
You mean all stations on the White Plains Road line between 180th and 241st will be replaced? What will passengers who frequent those stations do and how long will it take?
The only station that is to be REPLACED is Gun Hill Road. The others are to be rehabilitated.
David
They'll probably so it the same way they did the Broadway line. Half the stations at once, when they're done do the other half. And if the neighborhoods are as pushy as the Williamsburg area hopefully it won't take much longer than 6 months for each set (3 if they do it in 4 sets).
They need to replace Nostrand Avenue Station on the IND, It's old and need better lightning and needs more seats in the station.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
My guess would be that leaving 149/GC, Lex trains will see a Yellow over Yellow with the entire curve on timed signals.
I hope not! There are enough unnecessary Timers around the system. We don't need any more.
"I guess this is just life. One part or another of the BQE, the FDR or both has been under construction since I first bought a car in 1990."
I believe the FDR and/or BQE have been under continuous construction since about 1970, actually. I'm sure someone can identify a few months here or there where no work was being done on either, but probably not many.
Any signal part not available from US&S or Alstom is made at the 215th signal shop -right? So what's obsolete?
The only signal devices that are truly past their time are the GRS induction-type stops.
The existing signal equipment was so robustly designed that if properly maintained it should last a good long time (which it has.)
Piston packing wears out, Pole Changers get bad contacts, and CBTC PC boards will certainly cost much more than rebuilding a vane relay. My point is that you're always going to have parts that need to be replaced from normal wear --so just do that! Why replace the entire system?
The Feds' attitude about what they will fund has changed, and New York City must pay the price by blazing a trail in unproven technology. If they will only pay for "state of the art" then fine, put in what Metro North has --its existing technology.
The TA needs to admit that the endgame of CBTC is to cut RTO employees by 1/2.
[[ end rant ]]
Like they'll EVER admit that!!
Don't forget make their wallets much fatter too.
I wonder if they actually manage to do this what their excuse will be for raising fairs? Will the public stand up and say 'You have 50% fewer employees than X years ago yet we're still paying more?'
Would be interesting to see...
"The TA needs to admit that the endgame of CBTC is to cut RTO employees by 1/2"
Of course the goal of technology is to streamline the costs of operations. Labor costs in this country are by far one of the biggest costs in any business.
"Any signal part not available from US&S or Alstom is made at the 215th signal shop -right? So what's obsolete?"
The cost of custom building parts is astronomical. It's time these signals are upgraded to modern technology that will ensure the riding public safe, effecient rail service at an afortable price.
In order for the MTA to be able to provide good service to riders now and in the future the mta must modernize it's antiquated infrastucture. A fully upgraded transit system could shed at least 25% of it's current work force and provide more frequent service to the riding public at an afordable price.
Pardon my playing devil's advocate here, but once we've eliminated all those jobs and have managed 100% efficiency, who's going to be left to BUY anything? Sorry, but it needed to be asked. If you eliminate too many positions, you end up with the Phillipines (and many other places) situation, where nobody in the factory can afford to buy what they make.
Public sector jobs which are not needed drive up taxes which drives good paying private sector jobs out of state.
Lower taxes = lower cost of business = more private sector jobs for New York
Moneies currently spent on jobs that will be illminated will be spent somewhere else . More teachers to educate our children. Longer library hours. Lower fare's for the less fortunite The money all come out of the same pot.
A good example is the thousands of finacal industry jobs that have moved across the river to jersey city. The lower taxes and lower building costs (thank the construction union for that) have cost NYC thousands of good paying jobs. One forgets that for each white collar worker there is a need for more office cleaners, security guards, buildin mechanics, cooks, waiters, bus boys and retail workers
Just a note on the construction unions. During the building boom in the late 90's the unions refused to admit more members or allow members from out of state locals to work in the city. There was a huge backlog of projects that got delayed or were canceled because of this
These jobs lost to technolgy will occur over time. In there place will be fewer better paying jobs. In the end the remaining workers at the MTA life will be better off.
There's this huge industrial park out near the Deer Park LIRR station. "Everyone" loves it; new industry, more taxes paid, plenty of jobs. And it is nice to look at. The standard suburban brick square factory design, but much larger in scale. Lots of parking...
But you know what? Most of the jobs inside these clean factory buildings are minimum wage warehouse/mailing/distribution jobs. Now, how can you plan for a future with such a measly salary? What gets me is how those with the gelt, who create the jobs, have by and large the least concept of decent jobs. It really doesn't matter to them. The concept is, rent a covered box. Set up long lines of machinery, mail bar coding, assembling mailing packages, vitamins, electronics, whatever. Hire all those new folks to do the necessary drone work. Pull in the profits.
These places are modern-day sweat shops. Okay, a job is a job. I've worked in those joints too. But it doesn't say much for the imaginations or qualities of those who own these companies. And it creates a larger and larger community of people who really can't aspire to greater living conditions.
We've got the same situation up here - it's called Bombardier up north, and Supersteel nearby. "Industrial jobs" of course, but pays MUCH less than in comparable factories. Train lovers can debate the quality that does emerge from these modern "shops" but you've put your finger right on the problem. And our "policies" are not exactly encouraging people to be educated in the higher paying "industrial sector" jobs either as we ship those away. Seems those companies that packed off to the south are now packing off to southeast Asia and even smaller fiefdoms such as those where Nike roams.
Meanwhile, folks around here who once worked for GE building turbines are now standing proudly out front at minimum wage saying "Welcome to Wal*Mart" ... sure hope this nation doesn't get itself into a wartime situation where the rest of the world flips us the bird and won't sell us tanks or DVD players. Once upon a time, everything we needed was "in house" ... now we depend on the good will of others. I call that "dependency" while some call it "progress" ... we'll see ...
Made in China.......
Assembled in China..
US made from imported parts..
Assembled overseas from US parts
Free Trade Zone...
You bought junk...
"GE Cares customer service" (Barbados) ... Verizon customer service (Antigua) ... Fleet Bank Bonds Division (Sri Lanka) ... there's an internet now, no need for ANYBODY to be in the United States. Just a thought, but one I think of every time I'm shopping. For now, call me stupid, but if I can find something made by our own, I'd rather buy that even if it's junk.
Not EVERYBODY can get that covetted middle management job, and at the moment, that's the job classification disappearing faster than others. Want FRIES with that?
I'm learning how to do without. All that plastic gadget gee gaw...pshawww! Who needs it? Dollar store junk, no matter how much it costs. Knock offs of everything.
GE employees got busted with 'GE brings good things to life' T-shirts.
Defense plant employees....GE MiniGun pic with 'like Death' logo.
.308 Win at 4000 RPM......really nice Gatlin. NOT made in China.
Chiney food...Chiney food. Supervisors continue to order out Chinese...really want to tell em find American food. 'Hung So Low' will one day get his bicycle bomb into a TA facilty beyond property protection. 911 is only the tip of the iceberg.......most of the world envys our freedom and will do anything to make us lose it.
To my Brothers and Sisters in Transit: forget the unions rantings.
Remain vigilant and alert. You are the Eyes and Ears of Transit.
Do not hesitate to report anything suspicious to supervision.
Freedom is....an M1 Garand. Nothing else. CI peter
>>> Supervisors continue to order out Chinese...really want to tell em find American food. <<<
They must not be very hungry if they can wait for the food to arrive from China. On the other hand, I do not understand what would be wrong with buying food from Americans of Chinese ancestry, or why that would be a security problem.
Tom
Such a can of woims unca Tom!!!! Apart from the fact that this Chinese food does NOT come from Americans of Chinese ancestry, there is a stinging security matter about entry to TA property. Supervisors have flex-time......we have the one half hour My birthday is March 1st and I decided to remain silent and do for my crew....this pick may wipe em all away from 239th. I'll save the AVA
and be there if I can. CI peter
what would be wrong with buying food from Americans of Chinese ancestry
We have a very fine Chinese Resturant here in North Dakota. Several *real* Chinese cooks. They siad they came here from the Bronx! Their language skills said they didn't live in the Bronx very long.
Indeed, most of them got busted by INS and disapeared. The Husband and Wife, with their wonderful kids still live here and run a very fine store. The little girl was great in math, but there were few teachers in this part of North Dakota who could instruct in Chinese. The School retired principal here and his wife have spent a long time with the kids teaching them in English, and they are doing well.
And the food is the best on this part of the planet.
Elias
And that which is made here is junk too, and costs a fortune compared to the American made inferior products.
Are we trying to put ourselves out of business?
Once upon a time we had had quality stuff made here, and stuff we were proud of (at least to own). Subway cars made here. The GTO, the Mustang, the Charger. At one time we made some of the best stuff.
Maybe we need to be cutoff like Selkirk fears and we become once again self-reliant. We can do it too, we have the resources, just have to stop being so lazy about it.
Doc Brown: No wonder this circuit failed it says made in Japan.
Marty: What are you talking about Doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc Brown: Unbelievable.
>>> We can do it too, we have the resources, just have to stop being so lazy about it. <<<
It is not laziness. Just a shift of the fruits of production from labor to capital.
Tom
It is not laziness. Just a shift of the fruits of production from labor to capital.
This will continue until all peoples of the world share a similar standard of living. Get used to it.
Elias
I got a little rant here...
Can't these frickin' knuckleheads figure out how to make stuff HERE? What is their problem? EVERYTHING IS MADE IN CHINA!! I'm out of my mind sick of it.
Damn it all. We're fed second by second the sights and sounds of all the doo dads we should have to feel "whole". But we always want the cheapest price. Hence, the company, which long ago shut down the factory in Long Island City and moved to the South, and later, shut THAT down and went over the border to Mexico, now cuts out of Mexico and moves production to China!
Agggggghhhhhh!!!!!
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? I miss seeing "Made in Brook-a-leen".
O.T. rant terminated.
The problem is first and foremost, we've got an "ego problem" ... we've stopped "technical education" since it demeans people. So there is an increasingly severe shortage of skilled machinists, engineers and technicians which paid fairly well. Now there's "service sector" McJobs to replace those at a much smaller paycheck.
Then there's management perogatives ("cut costs") and what better way to cut costs than to farm out the work to the third world where folks will work for 3 cents a day? There's a long history of this being the method taught in MBA schools where we watch our wages slide, but at the same time we've got folks living at subsistence wages in OTHER countries who allow Wal*Mart to keep knocking down those prices. The dogma is that "OK, we get paid less but we get MORE for our money so it's a wash" ... 'cept for taxes, but I won't beat that horse anymore.
Eventually, we'll be so out of it that we won't know how to open a tin can. But they say it's progress. I buy my food from local farmers. I shop at the local grocery store. I think and act globally where I can but also remember that you have to feed your own too.
Nowadays our trains are made in Canada, Japan and France. Soon we'll forget how to build railcars entirely. Same for autos, same for video equipment. All works out as long as the rest of the world is willing to take our money and give us something in exchange for it.
But WHAT IF ... what if we cheese off the world and they cut us off? Sorta like what we did to South Africa and other "pariah nations?" When we went up against Hitler, we won because we had everything we needed and the skills needed to make it. Are we as strong today? Just another thought for the grist mill. Oh wait, we don't have any of those anymore either.
My thoughts on this are rather simplistic, I realize. But yeah, YEAH! I do wish we could somehow be forced to be much more self reliant as a naion. It saddens me because all my life I have thought of "business" as friends to America.
But it seems as though so much of "business" is really, not giving a s**t about America. (And please, none of this "Peru is America, too!" jive. Nobody wants to move to "Peru" to live. AMERICA to the world is exactly who we think we are. The United States of...). Seems as though much of "business" behaves like those nice folk who'll lift that watch offaya dead body lying in the street since you won't be usin' it!
Keeerist. We got ghouls playing the part of business in the play entitled "The Business of America is Business".
>>We got ghouls playing the part of business in the play
entitled "The Business of America is Business".<<
And you are surprised because noone learns any history either. Lenin is reputed to have said that the capitalists would be bidding to sell rope to the Soviets as they were being hung.
The multinationals are basicly large criminal organisations whose behavior is often deserving of capital punishment for the decision making managers. There is no good technical reason the US can'y design/build railcars, BUT when the market is as haphazard and skimpy as it has been here, noone can afford to maintain the capacity. Even if you think Bill Agee wasn't smart enough, he also bankrupted the company.
But it seems as though so much of "business" is really, not giving a s**t about America.
The issue is NOT with Business.
It is in your own pocket.
You HAD the freedom to BUY AMERICAN, but you chose to BUY CHEAP, and so America stopped producing, and now for many items you no longer have the option to Buy American.
Please observe, that when Japan entered the market, it was with Japanese companies: Sony Toyota Panasonic etc etc.
Now in Wal*Mart (and any place else) you can once again buy your faforite AMERICAN BRAND NAMES! but all of these products are Made In China! American Companies are BACK IN BUSINESS, but the labor is being done elsewhere. At least in this I see some hope, even if it does not get you a decent job.
Elias
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? I miss seeing "Made in Brook-a-leen".
That scenario is described in the upcoming book Chapter 7 Made Easy.
>>> Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? <<<
Welcome to the Global Economy! Without trade tariffs to protect domestic manufacturers from low priced imports, consumer goods cannot be manufactured in the United States and sold at a price equal to the cost of manufacture plus shipping from the 3rd world. This will continue to be true until the wages and standard of living in those countries approach ours, or our wages and standard of living approach the 3rd world's. But don't worry, American capital (now multi-national) located all over the word will continue to prosper, no matter what happens to the American workers. Thank goodness the oppressed owners of that capital will no longer have to pay income tax on their dividends. :-(
Tom
LOL!
TA pays $142 for crap-ass safety shoes made in China and never hi-pots them......they are supposed to protect us from 600 VDC. Better safety shoes from Walmart cost less than thirty dollars a pair (China.) ntrainride: I guess you are not old enough to remember Hammarlund. CI Peter
Yeah, you're right. I AM too young to remember it....a radio receiver, correct? However, I do remember that Ampex invented video tape.
That one inch ribbon? GBC had 3/4 inch B/W decks for sale at $399 and I WONDERED WHAT YOU COULD TAPE until Sony had BetaMax recorders with built in TV tuners. BBC had all the original 'Dr. Who' episodes
on one inch until someone discovered 'erasure and reuse.'
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"?
NOPE! Labor is the biggest cost of a product. Labor is cheaper over there. Unless *you* want to work for that wage, the job will stay over there, until such a time as all workers on the planet earn a similar standard of living.
Now look at a product such as eyeglasses. Why does a pair of eyeglasses cost as much as a good digital camera? The eyeglasses are made here individually by american craftsmen to your own prescription. (Sure *frames* may be made elsewhere, but the frame also carries all of the overhead of running the optical shop, its employees, its rent, and the utilities.) Look at the digital camera: it is stamped out by a cookie cutter by the thousands in a factory in china or tiawan.
Until all share the same standard of living, the factory work goes to the lowest bidder.
Now let me ask you a question. Sould we make the rich poorer, or the poor richer? Go ahead tax the rich until they have nothing left. Then nobody will have anything. Is *that* what you want?
Elias
I mentioned nothing about taxes. I'm saying, those with the werewithal to create jobs don't seem to be able to get beyond this quandry. And the truth is, it's all done to satisfy our desires for the latest thing. Something doesn't seem right when the only way for our fellow citizens to so-called "enjoy what is rightfully ours" is for us to be using the people of the poorest countries to manufacture it. And no, I'm not being politically correct. I mean, the fact that we seem to value, uh, consumer values more than anything else. Why don't we bitch much when those factories close down?
Damn it, I don't care what the media inspired hoo-faw-roo call it, I think that philosphy is unAmerican! That ain't us, people. We don't purposefully suck out the liveblood of people to get our own. It used to be, anyway, we BUILT IT OURSELVES.
And yet, I defy you to find any clothing store in the land where the percentage of items NOT labled "Made in Maylasia", "Made in Dominican Republic", "Made in Romania", "Made in Costa Rica", etc, never exceeds five percent or so.
Sorry to get so preachy....but, shame on us. And I'm not gonna allow myself to be reconciled with hindsight analysis of ineveitabilities. It still stinks....big time.
There's this huge industrial park out near the Deer Park LIRR station. "Everyone" loves it; new industry, more taxes paid, plenty of jobs. And it is nice to look at. The standard suburban brick square factory design, but much larger in scale. Lots of parking...
But you know what? Most of the jobs inside these clean factory buildings are minimum wage warehouse/mailing/distribution jobs. Now, how can you plan for a future with such a measly salary? What gets me is how those with the gelt, who create the jobs, have by and large the least concept of decent jobs. It really doesn't matter to them. The concept is, rent a covered box. Set up long lines of machinery, mail bar coding, assembling mailing packages, vitamins, electronics, whatever. Hire all those new folks to do the necessary drone work. Pull in the profits.
These places are modern-day sweat shops. Okay, a job is a job. I've worked in those joints too. But it doesn't say much for the imaginations or qualities of those who own these companies. And it creates a larger and larger community of people who really can't aspire to greater living conditions.
What do you expect? Should the factory owners pay everyone $20 per hour? Then you'll have an empty industrial park. I am a great believer in the marketplace as the ultimate arbitrer of wages. The factory owners in that industrial park (Heartland), and in countless others like it throughout the country, generally will pay the wages that the market compels. There's no grand conspiracy to keep the workers down. What sometimes does distort the marketplace are the unions, with their artificially inflated wages. That's all well and good for the people who pull down the high union wages, but increasingly the jobs leave New York - and sometimes the United States - for cheaper pastures elsewhere. It should come as no surprise that the last major redoubt of unionization is in government and health care jobs. Those are the jobs that generally cannot move elsewhere.
My point was, why is that segment of job producing entities the ONLY type that's seen nowadays? And plenty of those companies that leave had gotten mucho bucks from local governments to "improve and expand". They scammed us, big time.
No shame. That's the problem.
In most cases Unions shoot themselves in the foot with thier excessivly high wage demands and anti-business work rules. The union leaderships has in large part failed thier members. They failed to adjust to the times. At one time there was no place for the companies to go. Once the landscape changes they should have worked with management to come to a balance that satisfied both sides.In has forces manufacturing companies to explore other options such as move south or to other countries. In large numbers over the last 30-40 years these firms have packed up and moved on. Many in union management held compaines hostage and forced the compaies to explore other options. Once one company moves out and the ski didn't fall, it eased the path for others to follow
The excessivly high salaries and crazy work rules have forced the state to raise taxes, cost more for electricity, fire, police and pushes the cost of housing, food and clothing up. Higher cost to build and maintain building raising rents and forces landlords to cut corners by not repairing problem or resorting to unquilified repair personel to fix problems.
This leads to more building collapsing, buildings catching fire (when people use alternative means to keep warm) eroding the housing stock.
If you look at white collar wall street jobs. Most companies who do not need to be in New York have moved out due to the excessivly high rents and cost associated with doing business here. One example is AT&T Many of the lower level jobs that don't require huge educations have been shifted for the most part to Jersey City or lower cost cities down south with lower cost of living. These cities generally don't have strong union precenses that drive up the cost of construction and thus office rents. The remaining wall street jobs such as stock analysts and other big positions stay in the city because it is easier to recruit top candidate's to the city. In fact bond traders at Goldman Sachs recently refuses to move to the new Jersey City office tower (which by the way was built when the MTA outbid goldman for 2 Broadway)
The end result of all this is less jobs for new yorkers. Government is forces to hand out large tax breaks to try to retain jobs. For instance it cost nearly 40% more to build an office building in Brooklyn then it is in Jersey City. The building trades Unions have held developers hostage which makes the costs prohibitive to build an office tower in brooklyn or long island city without government tax and other breaks.
The same is true at the MTA. The excessive costs for many job title and the lack of cooperation between management and Union leadership due to constant union demands for higher pay.
$23 hour tooken booth clerk
$18 hour station cleaner Are two examples.
other reasons why jobs go bye bye is the overgenerous social sevices. A Bloomberg adminsitration probe showed that 10% of people applying for emergency housing and support services came to NY within 6 months of applying for help
It's time that NEW YORK wises up, deployes technolgy to make government more effecient and use the money educate new yorker to do the jobs of the futer, lower taxes to attract the industry here.
If you walk the halls of reasearch labs, engineering companies, computer programing and networking compainies, biotechnolgy firms you will find that nearly half of the workers are foreign born, educated oversee's. We need to spend the money on education (including techical training) so that NYC residents can compete for good paying jobs. If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education can turn around thier education system so can we!!!
If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education can turn around thier education system so can we!!
Good. We can begin with spelling and gramar.
> If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education > can turn around thier education system so can we!!
> Good. We can begin with spelling and gramar.
You're a riot, Alice. A regular riot.
Of course the goal of technology is to streamline the costs of operations. Labor costs in this country are by far one of the biggest costs in any business.
Like Selkirk said, if everyone makes minimum wage, who buys stuff?
The cost of custom building parts is astronomical.
Don't forget, the TA has the advantage of quantity and standardization. Each time a 2A relay is on the bench, you're not re-inventing the wheel, its just like the last 500 you did.
A lot of the truly arcane things on the system like counterweight stops, mid-track switch machines, D-valves, Contract 1 signals, or Model 4 machines are gone.
It's time these signals are upgraded to modern technology that will ensure the riding public safe,
Please explain what's so unsafe about the current signal system.
Then explain how an unproven system is safer.
effecient rail service at an afortable price.
The answer lies in EXISTING technology, not being a beta-tester. Solid state cab control, and vital microprocessor interlockings have existed since the 80's and are proven safe. Plus you'd have standardization with Metro-North (and mainline RR's), so suppliers could offer a better price. Of course you'd still need OPERATORS...
-don't get me wrong, I'm still Dave-the-crazy-relay-guy, but If the feds will only shell out the dough for stuff with chips in it, then just buy what everyone else is buying right off the shelf. We're paying for R&D that isn't for what it says its for.
...MMMMMMMMM....dough.....chips.....aaarrrrrrgggllll. -gotta go to the store!
Don't forget, the TA has the advantage of quantity and standardization. Each time a 2A relay is on the bench, you're not re-inventing the wheel, its just like the last 500 you did.
Quantities of 500 are small potatos. OTOH, if they signal designers used techniques that have been proven in factory floor applications, then the universe grows to the 100K class. That is still an order of magnitude less than consumer applications.
The point I was making is that "specialty parts" are not being made up for every rebuild job with painstaking R&D time. The relays are standardized and the TA has a bZillion of them.
Gee, I thought you were still the motion picture electrician looking for decent regular work!!! I'm still on the list for SM but unca Steve told me 'round pegs need round holes and I think you have found your niche.' It'll be computer downloads and analysis Wednesday unless too many bodies are missing at 7 AM. CI peter
No, Peter I hired on 7 months ago.
"found your niche" -- verry punny.
"Like Selkirk said, if everyone makes minimum wage, who buys stuff? "
How does elliminated obsolete cause more people to make minimin wage. The money could be put to better use such as improving our education system so that NYC residents can get the good paying jobs in this city. Take a look at good paying private sector jobs in this city. There are more long islanders in these jobs then city residents. Why? better education. Take a look at research labs, engineering departments, bio tech industry, computer consulting. 50% of the workers are from another country. There are plenty of good paying jobs in New York state. If we spent less money protecting jobs that are no longer needed and refocus the money on more important endeveours we are all better off
Reduces government cost creates jobs.
Look at the plight of the sectretary. Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. yes there are fewer secretaries but they get paid a hell of a lot more. Many make in the $60-90 range. The money companies saved is used to pay people in job finctions that help the company move foward. The same will happen at the MTA
Close the token booths => add extra police patrols, install CCTV to better secure the entire station not just fare contro
One man crews => less costly to add addtional service
The daily news has an article of another manufacturing union that is demanding 15% raises. The article states that the compainies profit margins is only 5%
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/56933p-53308c.html
Once again these people fail to realize that if the company can not earn a decent profit, they will move out of city. Good luck finding another manufacturing job in NYC.
Reduced government cost creates jobs.
Look at the plight of the sectretary. Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. yes there are fewer secretaries but they get paid a hell of a lot more. Many make in the $60-90 range. The money companies saved is used to pay people in job finctions that help the company move foward. The same will happen at the MTA
Close the token booths => add extra police patrols, install CCTV to better secure the entire station not just fare control.
One man crews => less costly to add addtional service.
What you say is entirely true, but I unfortunately don't expect to see much of this "re-engineering" taking place at the MTA. While other factors may apply as well, the main reason why nothing's likely to happen is the fact that the opponents of change are far more passionate about their opposition than the proponents of change are about their support.
Let's use the closing of the token booth as an example. Most station agents see the booth closing as the first step in eliminating their jobs. They're probably right too, as the talk about using the S/A's as roving "customer service" workers in the stations is probably just that, namely talk. At any rate, it should come as no surprise that the S/A's are going to fight the proposals tooth and nail, using just about any means necessary. We've already seen some of that in the way the unions are raising a largely misleading safety issue as a way of playing on public fears.
Now, on the other side, the people in MTA management and elsewhere who favor closing the booths are surely not remotely as stirred up about the issue as the S/A's are. Booth-closing proponents only can point to certain cost cuts and theoretical gains in productivity. It's hard to get particularly worked up about numbers and forecasts. As a result, while logic and sound economic theory may be on the side of the close-the-booths contingent, the S/A's have raw passion on their side. It's not hard to see why it might be very difficult to close the booths, no matter how sensible the idea may be.
>>> Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. <<<
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Administrative Assistant is not a new title. It used to be given to men who did not necessarily know how to type. Women with the same job were called "Executive Secretaries" and worked their way up from the secretarial ranks. Both positions were reserved for upper management in large corporations. Middle managers were entitled to a secretary and usually still are. Minor executives such as local sales managers would share secretary/typists who would answer the phone and do light typing and keep calendars. Before word processing large corporations had secretarial pools or typing pools which were the predecessor of the word processing departments. Typists who could take dictation may have called themselves secretaries, but they were not. The reduction in numbers has been in what were the typing pools. Word processing and spell checking have reduced the need to do multiple drafts from scratch or retyping a whole document when a minor error is discovered. Voice mail systems have lowered the number of receptionists and switchboard operators.
Tom
but If the feds will only shell out the dough for stuff
Why should the Federal Government shell out for a city subway system.
The city *wanted* to be in the Subway Business, they built a subway in order to DRIVE OUT PRIVATE subway systems, and they suceeded. Now nobody in the city has any right to complain that it sould be done by private interests, and there certainly is no reason why it should be done by Federal intersts, so BUILT AND MAINTAIN IT YOUR OWNSELVES! There is no reason why the city cannot sell bonds and build all of the subways it needs. The investors need not all be New Yorkers, but New Yorkers shall surely have to pay off the investors, be they private companies or the city (and it's bond holders) itself.
Yes, I agree that the Subways OUGHT to get a part of the federal taxes collected on fuel which are earmarked to improve *transportation* in this area, but better yet is eliminating the federal tax on fuels, and replacing it with a regional tax that can respond quickly to the changing transportion needs of the region.
Elias
There are a bunch of distinct issues.
1) Do we want to go away from wayside signals with stop arms
as the means of enforcement?
2) If so, do we use a proven system such as cab-signaling/ATO
using coded track circuits and vital solid-state components, or bleeding-edge CBTC?
3) Do we want to eventually go ATO and not have motormen operating
the trains?
At this time, there is absolutely no advantage to CBTC. It will
not produce any better track utilization than a conventional
cab-signal based system with positive speed control. It will not
be cheaper to install, in fact it will be much more expensive.
It will not be more reliable. There will be massive delays
and "teething pains". It may also be dangerous. There isn't
universal agreement on the vitality of the software-based CBTC
approach.
P.S. Point 1 is open to debate. There is nothing wrong with the
current signal system. The problem is the people using it.
The current wayside system expects people to understand and
obey the signals!
There is one possibility that you appear to overlook. The present wayside system but implemented with modern components - i.e. not mechanical relays. NYCT is installing its first programmable logic controller (PLC) based system for the signal system (Bergen St). This comes only 30 years after PLC's were successfully introduced onto the factory floor, replacing costly relay systems. Perhaps, somebody in the railroad industry would consider using PLC's to replace the ordinary wayside signalling.
Perhaps, somebody in the railroad industry would consider using PLC's to replace the ordinary wayside signalling.
You mean like every mainline railroad in the US has been doing for 20 years?
CBTC is the very first time since the Board of Transportation tried NX/UR that the TA has been "ahead of the curve." Being on what Jeff calls the "bleeding edge" of technology is just going to cost us all money.
I love to read others impliment leading edge technology. I live even more to install it myself once all the kinks are worked out.
The MTA is handling the project the correct way
They picked their simplest line to test the product out and they did not install the equiptment in all the new cars before they know that it is the right way to go
We should applude NYCT for the way they are handling the project. There are people on this board ripping the MTA saying metrocard was an outdated technology. Now we have people ripping the MTA saying CBTC is too leading edge
The big problem with metrocard was he fact that there were supposed to be 3 vendors for competitiveness, but 2 immediately backed out, and now the last company standing can charge whatever the heck it wants.
CBTC was supposed to be a bastion of inter-operability and "open platform" technology also.
*- Train-based systems are already not compatible.
*- Once the agreed means of communication from wayside-to-train was agreed upon by all parties invloved, the primary vendor then changed their design sufficiently to screw the other two companies.
Anyone from New-Tech/CBTC can feel free to jump in and correct me on these points.
No argument ... ask Microsoft ... "competition" means wiping out your competitors, operate a monopoly without nasty regulation. Works every time these days. :)
Of course, when you say "PLC", I have to translate that to
"VSP" (Vital Signal Processor). We've had the discussion
here before (numerous times?) about why responsible railway
signal engineers do not specify off-the-shelf PLCs for
the _vital_ parts of a signal system, i.e. those parts
which must fail-safe. Anyway, I sense that Mr. Turing's name
will be invoked, so let's agree to disagree on that point.
So, yes, one can use solid-state controllers in both vital
and non-vital applications. Oddly, although the TA has
been using non-vital PLCs (for example in master tower
consolidations) for a few years, it has not yet used a
Vital Signal Processor. These have been in common use
in the railroad industry for about a decade. Bergen St.
will be the "pilot project".
Using solid-state processor-based stuff for interlockings
is a super-good idea, because you eliminate a bazillion
non-vital and vital relays in the plant. If the interlocking
machine is already there and working, there is little reason
to replace it, but if the machine has, oh let's say burned
to the frame, or if you need to make major track changes,
then it might be less work to just install a MicroLock-II
than to run a whole bunch of hard-wired logic or make up
new dogs and tappets.
OTOH, processor-based wayside signalling doesn't gain much.
There's not too much in an automatic signal line case (although
with the latest signal specs with a plethora of timers, cycle
checks and red signal over-run detectors, those cases are
getting pretty full), and
what is inside of it doesn't require much maintenance.
Every once in a while the signal maintainer needs to visually
examine all the relays and verify that when the track is shunted,
the signal goes red. The relays are swapped out and sent
to the signal shop for bench overhaul once every ten years or
so. These things are brick shithouses and even though they
are electromechanical, they'll take a lot of abuse and very little
maintenance and still work reliably, and fail-safe.
Believe it or not, the parts of the wayside automatic block signal
system which is most labor-intensive to maintain are the track
circuits and the stops. These things are sitting in the
disgusting roadbed, unlike the relays which are sheltered up in
their nice little case. The stop arm mechanisms are frequently
under water. They need to be inspected monthly and the position of
the arm in the tripping and cleared position needs to be measured.
Track circuits frequently fail (safe) because of metallic debris
on the roadbed, failure of insulated joints, or broken bonds.
Right about the roadbed-based elements being the most prone to failure. Its why DC line control has implemented in the first place.
Since new contracts call for all relays formerly in line cases to be consolidated in rooms, then you just plop down your PLC code system, and viola! -you have indication anywhere you want.
Now you know the TA will NOT admit they are trying to get rid of RTO employees but its about time they place new signal systems and CBTC on the lines selected. Its just like the new technology cars, they're trying to cut the C/R positions over time.
NYCT's greatest operating expense (about 80% of the operating budget) is for personnel. Assuming that NYCT's goal truly is to reduce RTO personnel by automating part of the jobs they do, what is the objection to doing so? Lots of systems have one-person train operation -- Chicago recently went OPTO on trains that, while shorter than New York's, aren't exactly streetcar-sized, and that system doesn't have automatic train operation capability.
David
>>>NYCT's greatest operating expense (about 80% of the operating budget) <<
Including you, Mr ERA president?
Peace,
ANDEE
ERA? Electric Railroaders' Association? I have never been president of that organization, nor have I ever held any elected position with that organization. The current President of the Electric Railroaders' Association is Frank Miklos, who has held that title for several years.
I stand by my statement as to the makeup of NYCT's operating budget. Anyone with more accurate information is welcome to correct me.
David
Let's get practical here.
If NYCT were to reduce crews to 1, which position do they eliminate?
If it's the one in front, there's no one available to look out for any anomalies that the ATO/CBTC software doesn't see. If it's the one in the middle, the operator in front is 600' from the rear of the train and certainly can't see anything in person.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just genuinely curious. How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?
The same way one runs a 300' train or a 450' train or a 150' train.
David
I'm agin' it. The safest practice is two people per train. One to drive. And to look ahead. One for the doors. And to look up and down the train. I can't believe it's even being considered.
And a hundred years ago, the safest practice was a Motorman plus Gatemen between each pair of cars. Times change.
David
Watch what ya wish for ... there's "Magic 8 ball" technology out there which can replace many management titles in Civil Service, and DECIMATE those who are on committees and study groups. When chatting in a local watering hole with buddies of mine in Division of the Budget, recommended that they explore "Magic 8 ball" technology and DAMN if they didn't GO FOR IT! Whatta country! :)
Technology by and large has reduced middle management positions by a larger percentage then line worker positions.
"Technology by and large has reduced middle management positions by a larger percentage then line worker positions."
Really? What kind of jobs did middle managers (not immediate supervisors of line workers; they're not middle management) once do that technology now does?
>>> What kind of jobs did middle managers (not immediate supervisors of line workers; they're not middle management) once do that technology now does? <<<
Exception reporting computer programs have reduced quite a few staff management positions and extended the span of control of managers. This has reduced the number of levels of management. Now instead of having an area manager controlling three branches and a region manager with three area managers, a company might do away with area managers and have a regional manager control nine branches. This removes three line management positions along with staff managers at the area level for each region resulting in as much as a 75% reduction of middle managers.
Tom
There is only one way to go
Control the doors from the middle position and watch ahead via infrared camera for obstructions on the track.
The doors most likely will handle themselves also. The crew member would just be looking for draggers
In the current set up as posted on this board the conductor only looks out for dragger for the first few car lengths.
One person crews won't happen for at least 5 years. It is a change that is long over due
"How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?"
(1) CCTV. Cameras along the platforms looking at all parts of the train; monitors by the T/O's cab so that the T/O can check all the doors. T/O can be really driving the train, or just "minding" an ATO system, it makes no difference.
(2) Station staff. Put the station agents on the platforms instead of in booths. The platform staff check the doors and then give the T/O the right-away.
Well, # 2 sounds plausible. But what are you suggesting, some type of booth be constructed on platforms? I have a hard time seeing that. If these platform people are going to be on foot....the logistics seem unworkable. Especially at rush hour.
[How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?]
The same way BART, LACMTA, WMATA, MARTA, Metro-Dade, and other agencies run trains of varying lengths - up to 600 feet - with a crew of 1.
I'm not objecting to that, its going to happen sooner or later however I'm wondering if they're ready for automatic train operation and whether one person could man a 600' train by themself.
I agree, got caught by the blind GO last week. Well 2 & 5 riders, you're getting hit with a shuttle bus this weekend between 149 St/GC and East 180 St.
You think it's OK to bitch about 2 months with no Bronx-Thru Express service, we Brighton line riders had to endure a WHOLE year of no express service back in 1994-95, beacuse NYCT needed to replace the bridge structures from Avenue J to Sheepshead Bay. The project, it I'm not mistaken, took nearly 2 years to complete all the RR bridge structures.
Then we lost Brighton express service again for a few months in 1998-1999 for track replacement from Kings Hwy to Prospect Park. It finished shortly after the Willy-B project started, which saw R42's on the Q for a while.
Yes TWO consecutive summers of no Brighton express service in 1998-99 because of new track and tie installation between Parkside and Ave M. That was horrible too. Now we will lose Manny-B service on nights and weekends in just 2 months:
HELL THROUGH THE MONTAGUE RAT-HELL.
Look at how long we went w/o regular express service since 1986: April 1986-December 1988, 1994-early 1996 & 1998-summer 1999. F train riders got it worse [I ride that too sometimes :-)] they had NO regular Culver express since 1987.
GREAT! Now soon on weekends the beautiful sights riding on the Manny-B with the Q will be gone temporarily. DAMN Montague RATNNEL!!! But at least its for weekends only for about a year [things can change], look at how Sea Beach riders they went through the ratnnel for over 15 years except briefly in late 1990.
And what about us over here on the Far Rockaway line? Constantly having to deal with shuttle bus service. All for the rebuilding of these crossings, which never seems to get done. And its constantly on and off. It goes for 2 or 3 months, then lays off for a few, then comes back. Its kind of like the Manny B -- it will never be done. But at least with the Manny B you get alternative service, through the tunnel or whatever. Down here its shuttle bus, or a shuttle train (even worse).
I know what you mean Tony. I rode those shuttle buses over time but avoided the shuttle trains, no way I'm riding that. 5 riders got it "good" since they losing express service in the Bronx for only 2-3 months.
On my Brighton over ther years, there were times when we had no express AT ALL for a year usually on each project that came up. Soon the Q is supposed to get diverted into the Montague ratnnel on weekends; adding 8-10 minutes travel time.
at least the Brighton has 2 way express service
Yes but on weekdays only.
When the hell did you here that the Q is gonna be going through the tunnel on weekends? And for what reason?
It's been known for the longest. NYCDOT is replacing the Upper level, Manhattan Bound roadway, to do this, they have requested to NYCT that NO train traffic be allowed on the bridge. Much like the D and Q diversions back in 1995, all Q trains will go through the Rat hole on weekends and possibly nights. More info as to the start date will be known as C/R's and T/O's do their picks this week.
Oh god! If that happens,I can already start imagining how the bridge platform at Canal St is gonna be like. With no pillars to tape of the platform,scores of people are gonna be waiting there for trains that will never come without any idea whats going on.I think a certain G.O. of old reminds us of that.I was there and believe me,it wasnt pretty.
Whoa V Train, I'm surprised you didn't see all the discussion on that a while back. Kool-D mentioned what's going [should] happen in his post, I'm not going to be redundant.
I guess I must've forgotten about it.I sure don't remember reading any post about weekend Q trains over the tunnel.
I've been doing some net surfing trying to learn about some of the non-subway trackage in Queens, particulary as it pertains to the Rockaway Beach, Montaulk and Bushwick LIRR lines. Using Google, this pic turned up. It's labeled as being somehere on some line called the Evergreen branch. I have no idea where or what this branch is. In this picture, you can see gate cars on what's obviously the Myrtle Ave. el north of Broadway. I know of no surface ROW's which cross under the Myrtle Ave at an angle like this, except for the Montaulk LIRR diving under the line between Fresh Pond and Metropolitan. This is obviously not that location. Where is it!!!???
(The picture is dated in the mid 50's):
Try here...
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn1.html
or
http://lirrhistory.com/evergrn.html
Good Luck!!
The photo credited to W.J. Rugen and taken on 11-9-56 is in John Scala's Diesels of the Sunrise Trail (p109). It is captioned as being on the "Evergreen Branch" and states that the station stop for the BU cars above is Myrtle/Wycoff.
Hagstrom's map shows that branch leaving the Bushwick terminal and branching from that line to the south, just south of Wyckoff Avenue (apparently running underground between Jefferson and Himrod Streets and follows the (L) train to join the line to Bay Ridge just west of the Evergreen Cemetery. (The other line out of the Bushwick Terminal joins the Montauk line around Flushing Avenue)
Elias
Thanks. I've never heard of this branch before, and it threw me for a loop. I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists.
It's been long gone.....if that helps.
It helps to explain why I've never heard of it.
I think the forgottonny site has some details of what remains of this branch.
Yeah, it and lirrhistory.com had enough information about the line to give me a pretty good understanding about what and where it was.
I think on the other side of Wyckoff Ave over there is a White Castle.
Thanks. I've never heard of this branch before, and it threw me for a loop. I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists.
"I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists."
Better still, check out the Myrtle/Wyckoff station on the (M). You can see by the angle of the old buildings that the ROW was there. That also means there was a LIRR grade crossing in the street below the "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, look at that picture-
Since when did Barney Fife have a beat in Good Ol' Brooklyn? Think he hung around in Nunzio the Barber's joint?? :)
Maybe the photo shows part of the LIRR's forgotten Mayberry line that was discontinued around 1968...
Elias, I was able to borrow Scala"s book from a friend this weekend, and you missed quoting the first part of the caption which I think explains a lot.
The RDC's always had a good turnout for a fantrip
Diesels of the Sunrise Trail seems to be a great book, and I am enjoying reading it. I think it would be a "must have" for any LIRR fan.
Of course, I just finished looking at Evolution of the New York City Subways,and after looking at all of those terribly distorted pictures, maybe anything would look good.:-)
Diesels of the Sunrise Trail seems to be a great book, and I am enjoying reading it. I think it would be a "must have" for any LIRR fan.
That book is definitely the LIRR fan's Bible. Or at least more so before they replaced the diesel trains. It is one of the best books I have (except of course some of the subway books, which is still my favorite railfanning subject).
It looks more like an alley than a ROW....beautiful pic, Chris.
Hey, I didn't know Barney Fife had a beat in Bushwick :)
I can take a guess and say this is around the area of the Fresh Pond Road Station on the M line. This is the only location I think would be closest to a non-electrified line near an el that handled wooden gate cars. This was probably a spur track off the LIRR Montauk Division or from off the Bay Ridge line which junctions with the Montauk Division nearby. At first, I was thinking East New York on the Bay Ridge near Atlantic Ave, but by the 50's, gate cars were restricted to Myrtle Ave. I'm not sure when the Pitkin El closed west of the Grant Ave portal. Otherwise, I would sat this was ENY and the el train was heading to Lefferts at Atlantic Ave. But it would have been on the inner track, not the outer that Canarsie trains use.
Is the subway car in the street?
That's a LIRR railroad car, cat.
It looks a little like a Budd RDC car.
I wonder if it is a fan trip.
"It looks a little like a Budd RDC car.
I wonder if it is a fan trip."
It certainly was!
Bill "Newkirk"
Its not a subway car, its an LIRR Budd Rail Diesel.
And it is on the tracks on the Evergreen Division (paralell to and just south of Wyckoff.
Elias
The LIRR Evergreen Branch ran alongside the BMT Canarsie Branch from roughly Halsey to Jefferson Streets. The line also crossed UNDER the Myrtle Ave El at Wyckoff Ave. If you ever stand on the M platform away from the stairway to the street, (Roughly where the elevated train is) you can still make out the ROW for the route. Alot of places the ROW has been built over. But you can still make out the path.
That's an awesome photo.
As late as 1995, undisturbed areas of track still remained along the ROW. They existed mainly around Greene, Harmon, and Himrod Sts., as well as DeKalb, Stanhope, and Stockholm sts.
More info on the Evergreen Branch -
http://www.lirrhistory.com/evergrn.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn.html
The second link doesn't work without adding a 1,2 or 3 to evgrn before the period as in:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn1.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn2.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn3.htmlThe picture that the thread is about is in http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn3.html
I know there are still some railroad crossing signs where the crossings used to be. I'm not sure which streets as I've driven on most but don't remember which still had the signs. I think Gates Av, Cooper Av, and/or Halsey St might still have the crossing signs even though there is no trace of the tracks.
I know there are still some railroad crossing signs where the crossings used to be. I'm not sure which streets as I've driven on most but don't remember which still had the signs. I think Gates Av, Cooper Av, and/or Halsey St might still have the crossing signs even though there is no trace of the tracks.
I took this photo about 10-12 years ago at Jefferson Ave. The cross-sign was still there, even though the line hadn't been used for years. I haven't been there for a long time, so I don't know if it's still there now.
You can easily see where the ROW was, even though there are no tracks on much of it. AT Wyckoff it is very clear. It ran through along the edge of where the White Castle parking lot is now, and under the station, next to a triangle-like shaped red brick building (built like that because of the ROW), and then down what now seems like an alley, into a supermarket parking lot. There are some homes built on it in the distance if you are looking west, but you don't even have to get off the Wyckoff platform to notice how the LIRR ROW went. The homes are obvious because they are "modern" looking brick buildings, as opposed to the turn of the century buildings that are all around.
My educated guess is Cornelia Street. I used to live around the corner on Putnam Ave between Myrtle & Wycoff. Putnam traffic ran towards Brooklyn and Cornelia Traffic ran towards Queens. I am basing this judgement on the position of the sun and the Wycoff Avenue corner that seems to have some garages in the upper left of the picture. Friedrich's knitting mill used to be a one story building on the corner of Putnam & Wycoff. It may have run the whole length of the block. Please e mail me at brtpcc@aol.com and I will take a ride down there next week and confirm my guess. I'll even take an updated picture. My father & I used to walk those tracks from Ridgewood to East New York on saturday mornings. Even in the late 60's they were seldom used.
Rich
Yup, you are right. It is probably Cornelia Street. I remember walking down Putnam Ave to get the ROW, and I mistakingly thought I remembered taking the photo looking towards Brooklyn, assuming it must've been Jefferson in that case, because I only went on a few streets in either direction of Putnam that morning. And since I took the photo in the morning, (and having lived on the morning shadey side of the street when I lived on Putnam Ave further up in Queens, which runs in the same direction as Jefferson), it can't be Jefferson, because this photo I now realize is looking towards Queens not Brooklyn.
An old railroader talking:
"I can remember a day in my own career very clearly. The Deltic-hauled train had arrived for the morning London Executive and I was making an unscheduled inspection to check quality. The stock was in a dreadful state with a First Class vehicle that shouldn't have been rostered for a trip to Scarborough never mind our premier train of the day. There was time, so I rang the carriage sidings to send down something better.
Feeling rather good, I did not expect a phone call from the Divisional Operating Mgr telling me I didn't have authority to change vehicle formations. I invited the chief to come and look at the offending veh. Unbeknown to me, the Duty Assistant Stn Mgr realised I was in for a roasting and had taken matters into his own hands.
We were looking at the offending First Class vehicle when he invited the DOM to sit down and see the problem for himself. What he hadn't told anyone was that water had been previously poured onto the seat to demonstrate that it was unfit for service..."
This is the stuff the real railroad is made of!
AEM7
I fail to sense the humor in this...what was supposed to be funny?
The First Class car had a defective water closet (loo.)
'In the Hole Speak English.' CI peter
I have a Permium Metrocard (whatever you call it) the one that is a monthly that is good for one year as I am on payroll deduction that pays Transit Check for it.
Well anyway, it DOES NOT WORK 9 times out of 10 in HEET's. Just the other day at Atlantic Ave, I went to the Q entrance which is just two HEET's (they took out the part time token booth) and swiped and swiped and all I got was "Swipe at this turnstile agian" over an over until BOOM "JUST USED" came up.
UGH,
So off to the token booth over by the #2, waited in line, handed the card to the clerk and told her I was trying to get into the HEET at the Q entrance and it just keep saying swipe and swipe until it came up just used.
SHE WOULDN'T LET ME IN, I pointed out that it was a yearly card, that she could see it was just a few minutes ago. She responded "how do I know you didn't swipe someone in?"
So there I sat for the lock out period.
Most of the time a clerk will let me in once it says "Just used" but as I said 9 times out of 10 I can't get it to work at a HEET.
Are the HEET's cleaned as regularly as the turnstiles are?
I bet not.
Is this a hint at what is to come when all these part time booths become HEET's??
I think so.
"Are the HEET's cleaned as regularly as the turnstiles are?"
I just asked this question a few days ago and got responses that suggested S/As are less likely to keep them clean.
you mean the entrance at ashton place from the LIRR to the Q onlyat the north end?
I use it every day and i have never had a problem
a note a bout that exit: ive seen many times when people go up those stairs thinking they could transfer, but go up then see its only an exit. they should put up a sign "NO Transfer"
Do you think people REALLY read these signs. At one time, there was a sign that said "Use other stiarway for transfer to 2,3,4,5, etc.), and people STILL don't read it.
Yes that entrance, I have yet to get my card to work in the HEET's there.
They shouldn't bother, people normally DON'T look at signs anyway. It says "Exit Hanson Pl", when they see that and NO routes then they should realize that the transfer is not there.
Guess what?
today a sign was put up at the ashton place exit from the Q to the LIRR warning riders not to exit here if they want to transfer!
Maybe someone at that station saw my post....well its a possibility, there are many "subreaders" who dont post too much...
The problem is most likely a combination of two things
1) as metricards age their stripe's get scatched which makes it harder for them to be read. I place my card in a protective sleave and the average useful life before the card begins to fail abit in dirty swipes is about 3-4 months. Grant it I am not the most gentle user.
2)Currently HEET's slots are not cleened as routinely as regular turnstyles. Current turnstyles are cleaned by s/a. The s/a is likely to clean these swipes often to prevent extra work when scrated up cards become harder to read. There is no incentive to pay as much attention to HEET's due to the fact that they don't have to deal with the problem and station automation is a threat to S/A. More importantly to the union big wigs.
On the back of your annual Metrocard is a phone number. Call them ASAP. There has been a problem with the annual cards lately. We agents in the booth can't do a thing about them. We can't transfer the amount from the card to another. But call up ASAP. It's a waste to have a premium card that won't work.
The thing is it works fine in a turnstile but I have problems in HEET's.
What does HEET stand for?
HEET= High Entry/Exit Turnstile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a new fangled name for an 'Iron Maiden'.
Heh, I like to call them "egg slicers".
Peace,
ANDEE
You are talking about the Hanson Place entrance, at one time the right HEET was not working at all. No message of any kind when you correctly swip your card. Now it's fixed, it still doesn't work.
It sure was sneaky for NYCT to "close" the part time booth, the same way they closed the P/T booth at Tremont Ave/Concourse Line station when that station went for an in-house renovation back in 1998-99.
When this happens to me, I swipe it as fast as possible over and over again, and eventually it works. It might take ten minutes though.
I'm not surprised at that :-\. I hardly had problems at HEET's but once in a while I do have to swipe multiple times before I get in. If you're really having problems, you should use the turnstiles on the LIRR platform or the full time entrance near the IRT to enter.
I tried the turnstiles at the bottom of the LIRR platforms (ones that say NO TOKENS) and had the same problem where as I was even thinking of jumping the turnstile. Seems to me it is a cleaning issue.
Hehe, the swipe really needs to be cleaned up, wonder if they are forgotten about sometimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pataki signs bill cutting property tax for railroads
By JOEL STASHENKO
Associated Press
2/1/2003
ALBANY - Gov. George Pataki said Friday he has signed a bill into law that will cut property taxes for railroads by nearly half, and cushion the ensuing revenue blow somewhat for local governments.
The Rail Infrastructure Investment Act, approved by the state Legislature last year, will also end a long-standing dispute between localities and railroads over the property tax assessments on tracks, rail yards and other facilities.
Pataki predicted that the law will result in the expansion of rail lines across the state and, in turn, spark economic development. Having easy access to freight rail lines is crucial for many companies' manufacturing operations, Pataki said.
The law will roll back property taxes by 45 percent over the next seven years on railroad holdings. CSX Corp. and other freight haulers own the tracks used by Amtrak passenger trains. CSX has complained that while it has 7 percent of its tracks nationwide in New York, it pays 31 percent of its property taxes in the state.
Losses to local taxing units in the first two years will be made up entirely by the state. For the eight years after that, the state will cover 50 percent of the losses to local governments. The state offset, totaling up to $70 million, would lapse after the 10th year.
The freight lines had complained that there was little incentive for them to improve or expand facilities if they would have to face what they regarded as exorbitant new property tax assessments as a result.
The law will head off litigation by freight lines against towns, school districts and other property taxing jurisdictions in the state over property tax assessments in 2003 and future years. CSX said it is still pursuing a settlement in the federal court suits it filed in White Plains against local governments over tax assessments in 2001 and 2002. The company said it saw its tax bills jump by 55 percent during those two years alone and is disputing tens of millions of dollars in charges.
from www.buffalonews.com
Will CSX put back the second set of rails between Albany & Buffalo now? I think not, that's what Amtrak was supose to do, but they don't have the money or desire anymore. Guess the Turbos still won't be used on that route :-(
Nope ... the STATE is supposed to pay for all that. CSX didn't want to pay the TAXES, this has NOTHING to do with construction. State taxpayers have to build the rails, and there's talk of having Department of Transportation doing the MAINTENANCE. With this year's budget though, don't hold your breath.
The REAL issue IMHO is will NYSDOT or ATK have ironclad prioriy on the "second main track" as any other RR building a joint two track main would? This may seem arcane but the real issue for passenger/taxpayers is how often CSX will "sideline" them for "priority freight". We will have a similar joke in Northern Ca soon as U FINALLY spends the state money to reinstall the second main between West Sacto and Davis which was removed during Moyers' time as head of SP. The issue is critical because this bottleneck has contributed to unreliable operation of the Capiyol Corridor trains.
CSX, unfortunately, is a mooing sacred cow to the politicos. I'm not aware of ANY such provision in the taxpayer-supported trackage that may eventually get built for CSX. The PLAN is for CSX to "own" that second track after we've paid for it though, that's the REASON for this voodoo dance over the property taxes since CSX was concerned that the taxpayer-funded rails might raise their local property taxes for "improvements" ... draw conclusions as you wish.
But no, I looked over the master plans back when the Joe Bruno train station was being built, and there's NOTHING in there about priorities and CSX WOULD be the "owner" ... so what happens would be up to them, so long as they don't have to pay any taxes. :(
Gee, what happened to Amtrak's involvement in all this ?
The Turbos would be a Amtrak vs. M-N operation. I was sure I had read somewhere that the new problem was that Amtrak doesn't have the money anymore to kick in for this. I had never heard that NYS-DOT was paying for the 2nd track.
What's the frequency of the freight on that line ?
The second track in question runs from Albany to Schenectady, paralleling an existing track on an embankment where a second track once existed. So it's simply a matter of some grading work (to restore eroded portions (not many) and lay down wood and iron. It's a short distance. As to freight on it, not all that much. The major CSX Chicago line bypasses city of Albany through Selkirk and where I live (at least 10 TPH through here, often more) ... but there is some interchange done on that one track to CPRail and local setting out of cars. Not much of that either. So CSX is correct in their attitude that *they* don't need that second track, but Amtrak does. CSX is fond of the saying "screw Amtrak" and their boy, John Snow, is now Bush's ... oh forget it.
But that track (along with CSX scheduling along the TWO track zone from Schenectady west) is the reason why the Lake Shore and other Amtrak runs west of Smallbany is about as reliable as a Yugo. And since CSX won't do it, means that YOU the taxpayer must. Shoes for industry, shoes for defeat. Still won't solve the scheduling problems though, that's ENTIRELY CSX.
Sounds like CSX has learned how to do railroading from the boys at Guilford ?
Might end up that MTA (M-N) buys the ROW to solve the problem, why, well Gov. George wants to do it; the ROW is totally in NYS; and George controls the MTA. Then the tax payers will loose ALL the money.
AH! You REMEMBER them "GuilCup" guys? Them who's da "Springfield Terminal" ... LITERALLY! :)
YO, AMUE brother, holder of the scared wedge, keeper of the timetable (in crayon) and chocker of da wheel! Guilforb was a PIKER compared to these Florida swamp, brain damaged hosers of touristas ... lemme put it to you THIS way ... Ringling Brothers trainsets are marked CSXX ... 'nuff said. When the circus takes winter break, Bozo's in Dispatch with double-beer-can-hat firmly attached to the cranial interface, face down, dribbling into the relay cabinet. Much like me (been a HELL of a night) finally celebrating in the company bar after a NASTY night of nasties.
But yeah, much like the ne'er-do-wells I make a living keeping out of machines, the CSX guys would be RICO status if only the laws were enforced (steal a loaf of bread, do 10 years ... steal 10 billion in pension funds, become a CABINET member. But I digress.
Not to worry about MTA getting stuck with the bill, if MTA has coverage, then BRUNO'S district would need to start paying MTA taxes. It'd benefit the CITY!!!!! Bruno stomping faces ... no, they'll screw EVERYBODY with the price. Bruno will NOT allow the MTA to tax *HIS* county ... no sirree ...
There's a better chance of MTA saying, "OK Branford ... we appreciate the good will you guys have created on subtalk by allowing ordinary people 'handle time' which is something WE would never do. OK, We'll give Branford $46 Billion to cover the costs of acquiring every subway car in creation, extending the ROW to downtown New Haven, and give you every subway car in existence to run on your 10 mile *EL*" ... and paychecks for EVERY member who shows up! *FAT* paychecks!
Ummmm ... Joey'll surcharge your cell phone. :)
Since it's slow, Guilford Transportation (MELLON BANK) used to own the Delaware and Hudson (D&H, a local railroad) up until they had a moneycramp and sold the venerable D&H to CPRail. On the ***DAY*** that the sale went through, the crews hit the yards with flat black paint (ON THEIR RDO, and with BLE/UTU permission!) to paint over that *G* from hell on every loco in every yard in D&H country.
CPRail repainted SEVERAL GP38's in the original gray, blue and yellow (with lightning stripe) of the proud, former DELAWARE AND HUDSON ... Guilford. *PTOOO!* CSX is an IMPROVEMENT! Gack. :(
There's a better chance of ... We'll (MTA) give Branford $46 Billion to cover the costs of acquiring every subway car in creation, extending the ROW to downtown New Haven, and give you every subway car in existence to run on your 10 mile *EL*" ... and paychecks for EVERY member who shows up! *FAT* paychecks!
I would be happy with the 1/4 mile to the Shoreline Main, then trackage right up to Middletown (nice swing bridge there for Uncle DD to dump everything but BMTs in the drink). Going the otherway we'll put al El over 95 past New Haven & drop rust on all the traffic!
Yea sure we will ... beter be content with going ding ding :-(
Ding dang! Well, as long as we're dropping spikes on I-95, we gotta build some tunnel too with a nice, sharp S curve so Unca Dougie can rip that controller all the way around. :)
What Federally supported group, often decried as unnecessary and wasteful, has not had a recieved $ increase in its budget since 1991, operates a fleet predomiently designed in the mid to late 1970's and has been unable to invest in new technoligical based capital improvements and safety upgrades?
You don't have to answer because I am sure you saw the title of my thread, but anyway I just saw a 60 Minutes report that brought up these interesting points. I don't really know what big picture paralells can be drawn here, but I do know that I'll be mighty pissed off if we loose an Acela Regional train reentering Penn Station.
I want an expectation of ZERO risk on the rails, and the riders go in expecting pretty close to that. The shuttle scientists accept that there is a fractional risk -- which doesn't lessen the tragedy.
I'm more concerned when the oil-based transport -- car and air -- gets expensive, destabilizes, and the safety record drops. Those riders will want to switch to a near 100%-safe ride, and they'll flood the rails. Will we be ready?
Today my wife and I decided to celebrate Chinese New Year with Dim Sum at a restaurant in Sunset Park, so I had occasion to be on the Sea Beach. C.I.-bound W trains were running on the Sea Beach instead of the West End, and they were running on the one, viable express track! On the way, our stop was local (8th Avenue), so we had to transfer at 59th Street from the W, which was running local on 4th Avenue, to an N train. However, on the way back home, I was able to witness a W train running on the seldom-used ROW while on the platform. Unfortunately, I was sans-camera. Enjoyed riding the N express "shuttle" between 59th and 36th Street, though.
Turned out to be a hell of a day, eh? Good. I always like to hear people enjoy riding my favorite train, but if you don't take offense I would still like it to become an express again, over the Manny B, running express in both boroughs, and, of course, getting back to Coney Island again. BUT YOU GUYS HAVE HEARD ALL THIS BEFORE, and I'm waiting for some terse comment from my good friend Kool-D on this matter. Your turn Kool one.
I remember thinking, "I bet Sea Beach Fred wishes he was here today!" We would have had a great time riding on the line, as long as we avoided political discussions. :O)
Wasn't they supposed to start the renovations last month? What's the hold up?
Remember, its the MTA! Right now they're focusing on fixing the middle track and the signals from 149 St to East 180 St.
The subject says it all but of course I have questions, LOL!
I never been in Chicago, I always wanted to visit there and take the "L" (systemwide, of course!!!) So I'm traveling via moving truck for a friend of mine (I'm going alone) from Florida to Colorado and since I have whole week of vacation to spare and the truck rental gives me unlimited mileage and 9 days of use!!!)
How long is to ride the whole CTA subway system?
I'd like to visit downtown Chicago, anything interesting there that you can recommend?
Are there any Chicago (TRANSIT-ONLY) museum (just like NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn)?
Any other suggestions are always welcomed!
Thanks!
Michael Calcagno
Well, there's the Art Institute of Chicago, I wouldn't miss that.
You should peruse my recently revamped Chicago El pages, look for good photo spots (and look for stations w/ no photos to help me out! :-)
-Dave
Museum of Science and Industry!!! (includes large model RR built to spec for BNSF, original Burlington Zephyr, and more.
Ride Metra Electric from downtown.
Make sure you ride METRA and check out both the CNW station (via the platforms) and Union station (via Roosevelt Ave overpass). the METRA line I would most recomend is an express run out or from Aroura.
Two sites that are necessary to aquaint oneself to the 'L', and remember in Chicago it is not EL, but 'L' are listed below:
http://www.transitchicago.com/
http://www.chicago-l.org/
Of course there is the METRA Electric and the South Shore also.
While most of the 'L' system is safe to ride, be cautious during school hours and don't take expensive camera or video equipment on the lines.
Be alert of those around you and remember that there is only an operator in the front of the train - no conductors.
Unfortunately, the best railfan seat in any city is no longer available. Philadelphia has taken Chicago's place of having the best railfan seat, as Chicago removed theirs a few years ago to convert equipment to full-wide cabs for OPTO. However, you can stand on any train upfront on the left side of the car and have a view of the railroad ahead.
My favorite lines are the Ravenswood (Brown)Line, Evantston (Purple), the last express on the 'L' which operates at rush hour, the Red Line from Fullerton to Howard, and the Skokie, with it's third rail changing to overhead. The overhead will be a thing of the past possibly by the end of this summer. Anyway, read all about the system on L-org. Graham has a good site.
Enjoy, and don't forget to pack a winter coat and some sweaters!
Jim K
Chicago
I would say goto http://www.transitchicago.com/ and buy the Vistors Pass on line before you leave. I did this before I left and I found it wouth it. I was there for 3 days so I got a 3 day pass. I also picked up the others so I could just add them to my MC Collection.
I rode most of the line within these 3 days. I still think I should have made it back to the yellow line. It might be only two station but it was still fun. Also the Blue line have Grade Crossing to Camek. Also this line is getting compley rebuild from the ground up even thought the line is still running.
I hope that I could get back there one day. I still can't beleave it almost a year since I was there, and this was only becouse my wife was studing for her last Mid-turms and wanted me out of the house.
Robert
Well, I will try this again, I thought I posted a long message a few hours ago, but apparently my computer messed up or I hit Reset.
The CTA only has 2 lines that use the subway. The Blue and Red Lines downtown and the Blue line at Logan Square, Belmont, and O'hare.
There is lots of things to do and see in downtown Chicago and all over the city, depends what your digs are. Musts are the Sears Tower, riding around the Loop on the L, State Street and Watertower Shopping, and of course during the summer Wrigley Field. That's not nearly everything though, there is lots more to do and see just depends what you like. Many ethnic neighborhoods also all over the city, Pilsen with Nuevo Leon near the Blue Line at 18th and Leona's near the Red/Brown/Purple at Belmont are two of my favorites. But that's not nearly all, Chicago has almost ever kind of food you can think of. (Including famous pizza)
As the other guys mentioned, no transit-only museums like NYC, but the museum of Science and Industry is a must. You can take Metra's Electric line there and they have a cool train exhibit now. Also not to mention, the rest of the museum is great, you can easily spend a whole day if you've never been there.
Here is a summary of 4 of my must Chicago Rail rides for out-of-towners.
Metra:
Electric to Museum of Science and Industry as posted above. $4.10 round-trip.
BNSF Line to and from Aurora. You can use express trains both ways on weekdays during rush hours. This make the ride really great. The express portions both ways are for or over 20 miles at 70mph top speed most of the way. $9.80 round-trip.
CTA: ( You can purchase daily passes for the lenght of your stay, cheaper then paying $1.50 for each ride and more convient)
Green Line to and from Harlem/Lake in Oak Park. Newest completely re-built L Line in 1994-1996. Line is very fast, and has some great streches with no stations. Especially in and out of Ashland either way.
Blue Line to and from 54th/Cermak. Branch is currently under $482 million dollar re-construction project. It is very interesting to see what new work is being done as each month passes by. New 54th/Cermak station, which will be newest L station on entire system is set to open in March or April. Temporary station at Laramie, 2 blocks east of 54th is also interesting with the old station converted into a temporary terminal. Also lunch at Church's chicken at 54th/Cermak proper is a must, best fried chicken in Chicago in my opinion and also the cheapest.
These are just a few of the things you can see and Train rides you can take. If you want really specific directions and information for the time you are here, e-mail me at my address below. Just tell me how many week days and weekend days you will be here and exactly what you want to see, also where you are staying in city or burbs. I know the city and surrounding areas very well, have lived here my whole life, and can then help you make a specific plan for your trip.
I know that the first time I was in NYC was very complicated. This summer will be my fourth time and it took me almost a whole day of studying the subway map to plan my directions for my trip this year. Chicago isn't nearly as complicated as NYC, but it certainly helps if you have someone who knows the city and transit system help you plan your trip. The people on this board have always been great in helping answer any questions I had about NYC
My E-mail address: BJ7200@aol.com
A great express run is the Evanston Express. It runs rush hours only.
Pilsen with Nuevo Leon near the Blue Line at 18th and Leona's near the Red/Brown/Purple at Belmont are two of my favorites.
I like Nuevo Leon, and it's around the corner from where my grandparents lived. But my favorite Mexican food in Chicago is from the street vendors at the Maxwell Street Market (which is really on Canal Street at Roosevelt). It's not only good, but it's CHEAP, too!
Of course, the market is an experience in and of itself...
I didn't get a chance to take an architectural tour of Chicago last time I was there, and I really regret it. Chicago is the birthplace of the steel-frame skyscraper, and there are excellent examples of every architectural style there. My favorites are the wonderful beaux arts buildings along the Chicago River, like the Wrigley and many others, that date from an era when steel buildings were stil given ornate stone skins, hiding the modern framework inside.
Mark
Mark
Mark:
When was the last time you've been to Chi-town?
Mayor Daley did away with the street vendors, Maxwell Street is all bulldozed down to make way for redevelopment, townhomes, and UIC, and the area that was once Maxwell Street, well you wouldn't recognize it.
Most of the street vendors were Latinos that sold the corn on a stick, I can't spell the correct name, along with other heart grabbing favorites. All are pretty much gone when Daley deceed - no more street vendors. You can't even get a hot dog downtown from an vendor anymore.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim,
I was in Chicago August 2001. Then the market was on Canal Street, and the vendors were selling homestyle tacos, burritos, and tamales, looking a lot like the stuff you'd see on the street in Mexico itself.
Mark
Mark:
I guess they moved east from Halsted.
I don't get down there much, and there isn't any reason for me to go there. I used to like to ride the 'L' to 18th Street, but since it doesn't run on weekends anymore, I don't get over there either.
I miss those excursions.
Thanks for the direction.
Jim K.
Are you thinking you want to ride every line at least a short distance, or are you thinking you'd like to ride past every station?
You could probably ride every line except the Yellow Line in an hour or so, probably less, at rush hour in the Loop (the Yellow never comes to the Loop). But you wouldn't go very far on any of them. If you wanted to include the Yellow Line, you could probably ride them all at least one stop in a little over two hours or so starting and ending in the Loop.
But, if you had the crazy notion you wanted to ride all the lines past every stop, it would probably take you at least a full day, with good planning. I think the actual track time one way would be about 7 hours (or a little less), and that wouldn't count back-tracking to get to other lines, etc. It's smaller than New York, but it ain't tiny either. :-)
I'd also suggest walking the Loop alongside the El. Along with seeing some great building architecture, there are multiple multi-level parking garages right alongside the Loop, which make for some great pictures! There's a parking garage right next to Tower 18 that you should be sure not to miss, especially during rush hours! Trains in your face every minute!
--Mark
A word of caution about the parking garage located by Tower 18 (Lake & Wells). There are signs stating no trespassing, and violators will be prosecuted. I asked permission to photo from tier 3 and was soundly told NO, and don't get caught doing it.
Just pointing out something that could spoil your trip.
I would follow Mark's advice however, take a walk along the Loop 'L'. It is exciting just watching the tranins run along the overhead structure, especially at the curves.
Jim K.
Chicago
I'm planning to stop by both cities before stopping by Chicago...
Anything interesting in downtowns of Atlanta and St. Louis besides riding both systemwide?
Atlanta - how long is to take ride systemwide? (I know St. Louis is about an hour each way)
Are there any transit-=related museum or stores (just like NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn and Tranist store of Grand Central)?
Any other suggestions are always welcomed!
Thanks!
Michael Calcagno
I can help you a bit on Atlanta, as I visited the city briefly last year.
I was changing airplanes, so I didnt have a chance to explore the city, though I did cover all of MARTA. It took me about 6 hours to ride the whole system, end to end, with time for a few pix. I emailed MARTA before my visit and asked about photography, they faxed me a little note on MARTA letterhead giving me photo permission, though I wasnt challenged.
The spur to Bankhead is the most interesting part of the system (IMHO), 2-car trains with a single track relay beyond the station. The architecture at Five Points is interesting too.
I would also suggest checking out the people mover at the airport, its well worth it, they run 4-car trains of (I think) C-100 type cars, a very impressive operation that is heavily used. If I recall properly, its within security though, but if you are flying in its no problem to ride. They dont harass photographers.
ENJOY YOUR TRIP
Conrad Misek
As for the Airport people movers, stay on the train past the baggage claim dropoff riding in the first car. The train goes into the maintenance area prior to reversing. Pretty cool.
It's past Concourse E, not Baggage Claim, interesting nevertheless.
I guess if they ever build a concourse F the tram will go right thru the maintenance facility.
I think the expansion plans call for the building of a second terminal complex south of the current one, running parallel to it, rather than adding more terminals to the current complex. There would also be a second MARTA station to serve the new par tof the airport.
Mark
From what I've heard, the system would be extended from Baggage Claim and make a huge U-turn to the new South Terminal. I wonder how long that would take to ride.
Would it be possible to make the people mover into a giant oval circuit running through the two terminals? That would mean they'd never have to turn trains around.
Mark
Good question. I imagine they *could* but consiering the the new terminal will have only one concourse attached (maybe with room for a second in the far future), that would be a hell of a loop with a very long distance between the south concourse and concourse E. I don't know if it would be worth it.
All the museums in St. Louis's Forest Park are free, and the park is easy to get to on Metrolink. Also, there's the International Bowling Museum and Hall of Fame (home of the bowling pin-shaped car) at the Busch Stadium Metrolink stop. Also there's Cahokia Mounds state park across the river in Illinois. It's an archeological site, dating from ~1200, and it was the largest pre-Columbian city in what is now the U.S. with a peak population of about 20,000. I have pictures of it my website. Get there by taking the #6 bus from the Emerson Park Metrolink station. The bus ride is only 14 minutes according to the schedule.
Oh yeah, there's also that Arch thingy.
Mark
Laclede's Landing in St. Louis has several nice bars and restaurants (get off at Laclede's Landing Station). It also has a microbrewery that has great beer (forgot the name, but there is a map along the area listing all eating establishments-it is a two story building). The Admiral Casino on the St. Louis riverfront is very close to the Laclede's Landing. On the other side of Eads Bridge in East St. Louis is the Casino Queen, right next to the East Riverfront Station.
Try toasted ravioli. It is a St. Louis speciality served at the majority of Italian and local pizza restaurants. It is breaded ravioli that is fried, and is absolutely tasty!
Another nice area is the Central West End, with good restaurants and shops. Go north of the Central West End Station, and cross Forest Park Boulevard (about 5 minute walk).
Enjoy your visit in St. Louis.
The microbrewery in St. Louis Laclede's Landing is Morgan Street Brewery on North 2'nd Street.
In Atlanta, there's all sorts of resturants and neighborhoods around most stations. There isn't much traditional tourist things outisde of downtown (which is a good thing), but plenty of stuff to do no matter what to like to do. If I were you, I would pick up a tourist guide, they usually summarize most of the cool things to do around the city. There's cool stuff around Decatur, Inman Park (on Moreland Ave, east of the station), North Ave, Lenox and Buckhead stations.
"Anything interesting in downtowns of Atlanta and St. Louis besides riding both systemwide?"
Well, in St. Louis we have the Bowling Hall of Fame.... (VBG) Touring the Anheuser Busch facility is very interesting. Laclede's Landing is full of nightclubs and restaurants, and there are two casinos downtown, although one is actually across the river in East St. Louis, Illinois. That's the Casino Queen and it has its own MetroLink stop!
Before I put these tokens up on Ebay, I'm making a special offer to my fellow/gal Subtalkers. The current subway token will soon be a thing of the past. I have a limited quantity of these tokens that I will make available for $3.00 each plus shipping and handling of $2.00. No combining of multiple orders. These tokens are a must for any serious collector and will make a great addition to your collection. You cannot buy these at a Metrocard Vending Machines. Get your order in now, before these tokens are withdrawn from use. After they are withdrawn, there's no telling what unscrupulous dealers will ask for these pieces of history.
Please check my feedback rating by looking up heypaul(-425), and you can rest assured that your money will be in good hands.
I'm interested, sounds good to me !
By the way, I'm still waiting for the deed to that gothic arched bridge over the East River you sold me last month.
Bill "Newkirk"
Will you take a personal check? :)
I've got a hundred or so WWF tokens that I've stepped all over
so they are not mint.....but they do not exist anymore.
The World Wildlife Fund issued tokens? :)
The World Wrestling Federation issued tokens perhaps?
"World Wresting Foundation" LOST the copyright and trademark suit brought about by the Panda people a year or two ago. They've since become "WWE" or something like that as a result. So, up against the wall, you're under arrest for trademark infringement, buddy. :)
But Jesse Ventura is still governor ... somewhere. Tim Pawlenty replaced Jesse in Minnesota, so the "WWE" is now a fringe party. :)
Two of those tokens got you a minutes or so of crappy video game play
in Times Square, four tokens got you a crappy sim. Never got anything beyond the occasional cup of coffee I made myself in their big kitchen....I carried my lunch and snacks. Disappeared between the back of the video game cabinets and the wall for a break. Cheapass whiners and ingrates.......the wrestling thing is a scam to suck in money from the retarded. Now let's go for the real deal: Hulkmania versus Juice Redbird
Heh. Yeah, but the thought of a Governor parading around a ring in pink feathers and a boa does have some appeal. :)
Maybe the old WWF restaurant at Times Square turned into a modern day H&H automat. Or maybe in the back room their divas made little movies.
[Please check my feedback rating by looking up heypaul(-425), and you can rest assured that your money will be in good hands.]
I can hardly wait for when you offer the Brooklyn Bridge for sale on ebay...
You better not really have a -425 rating!
I don't have cash, but just hand me a token and I'll scan you in...
Saw this on NYRail.Org. A Staten Island Rapid Transit MU that never left SI, gone to seed in Travis. Cut and paste, it might load slow.
http://www.nyrail.org/sir/travis/35_opposite-side.jpg
Bill "Newkirk"
who wants to pool in to rent a crane and buy some land, we could use it for photo shoots
Why can't we go take it? We can put it somewhere, fix it up, and display it.
---Brian
"Why can't we go take it? "
I'm not sure who owns it or it's owned by anyone. I know SIR / MTA no longer owns it. Maybe Railway Preservation or Trolley Museum of NY.
"We can put it somewhere, fix it up, and display it."
Answer - NEED $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Anyway, I heard that car is pretty much stripped. It could be restored, but see my answer above.
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC, that was supposed to be TMNY's. Isn't that Car 353?
-Stef
There are no numbers on the car that I saw, and I visited it recently. it is inside the fence at the con ed plant, but that has not stopped the kids from trashing it. some of the end floors are rotted all the way through, and the seats are ripped apart. Preserving this relic will be expensive.
Yes, that's 353... a sorry end, to be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pretty grim, but I've seen worse. Does TMNY still own the car, or have they somehow relinquished ownership? Also, I don't know anything about the SI system. Is this car stored in a SIRT (I know, I know - MTA) yard?
Frank Hicks
Frank,
According to the TMNY roster, SIRT 353 is still rostered, but listed
as not on sight in Kingston. Hopefully, it looks better then
Queensboro Bridge #601, which is on sight in Kingston needing
"stabalization".
SIRT 353, was one of a trio of SIRT cars stored in a Con Edison
Yard, adjacent to SIRT. 388 went to sunny shore of Connecticut at Branford, while 366 went to the South of Maine at Seashore. Neither museum at this time have any plans for the SIRT cars, other then stabalization.
;-) Sparky
"According to the TMNY roster, SIRT 353 is still rostered, but listed
as not on sight in Kingston."
I guess I should read my own roster!!! :-)
Thanks for the info about 353, 366 and 388. Seashore says they got their car in 1993 (I guess from the MTA) - is that when Branford got 388 and TMNY acquired 353?
Frank Hicks
***[I guess I should read my own roster!!! :-)]***
LOL :-\
***[Thanks for the info about 353, 366 and 388. Seashore says they got their car in 1993 (I guess from the MTA) - is that when Branford got 388 and TMNY acquired 353?]***
To be honest Frank, I've heard many versions of the acquisition of
these cars. (You know Museum Inuendo). Not sure of what year 388
came to Branford. The fact that they were in outdoor storage on non-railroad property.
Con Edison, is the local transmitter of electricity to the MTA. Why???
I do not have the accurate details. May be someone else will chime in.
Now I'll have to look at your roster for preserved SIRT cars.
;-) Sparky
388 was at Shoreline when I visited it in 1995.
The SIRT Car? 1993. IIRC, 6688 was used as a tow motor for 388, one of the few times RT Cars cross the East Haven Trestle....
-Stef
My understanding is that there is some thought of at least painting and glazing 353 and moving it to a display site (Court Street transit museum, if they will allow it). If not, and TMNY changes their mind on its ownership, perhaps the parts will be split between Branford and Seashore. Car #366 at Seashore is nearly complete mechanically and physically, though there are some missing details (notably, windows).
I painted the roof, boarded up the broken windows, had the air compressor and traction motors serviced, and did a few other little things on 366. Im hoping for carbarn space at some near-future time as well. Contributions are always welcome.......
CONRAD MISEK
There's not a window in it, and what is there is seriously rusted. the trucks looked more or less intact, though I'm no expert on these things. There were also many parts tossed around the nearby area, and not one window in the car. Theres a few more photos of it tossed up here:
http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Other/SIRTCar/Damned.php
There are "politics" surrounding that car. TMNY acquired the
3 cars but had no financial means of bringing them up to Kingston.
In 1993, a deal was reached whereby Branford and Seashore each
took a car. [The] 353 is still owned by TMNY, but, from the
information I have, it has been de-accessioned from the collection.
I would have to rate the chances of preservation as poor. Eventually
the call will come that ConEd wants it out of there, and the
car will be scrapped. Hopefully the valuable parts will be saved.
I shouldn't speak for TMNY (maybe Evan J. will comment) but they
have a lot more important things to spend time and money on (like
getting a trolley wire up and energized) than to bring another
hulk up north. The only other hope is the Transit Museum, as they
have no examples of Staten Island equipment.
The reason 353 remains languishing there is at about the same time that the other former TMNY SIRT cars went to Branford and Seashore, there was discussion with the Borough President's office to restore the car and use it as a historic car on the SIRT system. However, nothing materialized. Over the years there have also been other proposals that would involve fixing and keeping the car on SI for various purposes, but those didn't go anywhere either. If anyone else has a serious proposal for disposition of the car, we're all ears.
I understand a similar conversation happend with some folks in NJ as the last of the K cars was getting cut up ... should have, could have, but didn't :-(
Oh DEAR, did I read that correctly - does that mean that they are ALL gone? I thought they were to keep some as work motors, with an eye towards preserving at least one pair. It is indeed a sad thing to hear that none of the K cars were preserved.
wayne
What is left are called the El Camineos, i.e. not much left to preserve.
Given the fact that 2 SIRT cars are already in the posession of museums, this car's preservation is not really imperative. If none were left, it would be a different story.
True, but none are on SI. Take the LIRR "hacks" as an example.
There are over a dozen still in existance in some form around the island at several locations, e.g. steam engine #35 (Oyster Bay); steam engine #39 (Riverhead); NY & Atl (has two that aren't used for their freight operation); Twin Forks (several have been put asside for them); and LIRR still has a few left. They include more then one style, e.g. wood cupola; steel cupola; transfer; bay window.
The most interesting part of this is that LI groups have found them off the island & gone thru the trouble & expense to bring them back, e.g. Branford had two it used as bunk houses. One went to the #39 folks & the other to the #35 folks. I was at Branford the day the #35 folks were applying a coat of paint before #12 took a ferry ride back home.
My point, I think it would be a good thing for some group on SI to come forward & preserve 353 on SI. Even if it just starts out as a part of a rest stop along the SI Expressway, i.e. a MP54 was saved on the LIE in this way.
Whew!!!! I thought for a second when I read your title you and others were about to bag on my Sea Beach train.
Where are the tracks the car is sitting on?
"Where are the tracks the car is sitting on?"
The Con Ed facility in Travis, Staten Island.
Bill "Newkirk"
What a shame. I was granted permission by Con Ed to photogragh the SIRT cars including the Whitcomb #9 in 1986 or 1987. I was under the impression that all cars had found homes in museums. I didn't realize that #353 was orphaned. I hate to say this but I'd rather see her scrapped than to be desecrated in such a fashion.
Want to get your loved one a unique Valentine's Day gift? Then consider naming a New York City subway car after them? For $48, your loved one's name is inscribed on a plaque and put anywhere you wish on the car. Imagine their surprise when they look up from the morning paper and find their name staring them in the face.
Honor your marriage by naming a married pair of cars after you and your mate for $125 Even if the future of your marriage is uncertain, you can rest assured that you and your mate will be linked together until the cars are retired or one or both of them are destroyed in a derailment.
We also have a limited number of 4 car and 5 car sets which are linked together and can be named to honor you, your mate, your children or even the family pet. Special rates will be supplied upon request.
Watch this message board for news of "Name a Subway Station". Soon you will be able to replace the name of a subway station with any name of your choosing. The corporations have been doing it with stadiums, so why not allow individuals to put their names on subway stations. Think of the pride you'll feel when the train arrives at a station with your name on it instead of "Ave J" or "Prospect Park". Your name will be on the lips of countless customers and crew members all the time. Prices will be scaled to the number of passengers using the station. Grand Central & Times Square will each cost $5 million dollars to rename. Order early, as these stations will go fast.
Do not be fooled by imitators. The International Subway Car Registry is the original subway car registry company.
Uh oh...sounds like heypaul's behind in his rent!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, I think he's been smoking something in the wee hours.
No doubt the same stuff that Andee'll be smokin' on Trevor's bus! :)
HEY, this belongs on BUStalk
Peace,
ANDEE
I trust there'll also be the required "Certificate of Authenticity" included at no extra charge? Will ya take a personal check? :)
>>>Will ya take a personal check? :) <<
NAH, but I here he accepts paypal. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Ewwwwwwwwww ... "Paypal" is actually in violation of New York State banking law somehow. Forget the details, but I don't play that after seeing how poorly they handle notifications of fraud we've sent them. I'll have to fill up some socks with quarters and pay that way. :)
Just hot off the wire at a L line station near you:
Beginning in 2 weeks (Valentines day weekend) 10 PM Friday to 5 AM Monday, and for the next 3 to 4 weekends, the following G.O. will take place:
Entire Line will run 15 minute headways all day (except of course late nights) AND will run in 3 sections:
1. 8th Ave to Union Square (Single Track?)
2. Union Square to Lorimer (Single Track a must) AND 3rd Ave, 1st Ave bypassed both ways, use M14 bus to access these stations.
3. Lorimer to Rockaway Parkway
The CBTC project is in full swing, and should be complete (hopefuilly?) by next year.
Flatbush41 I think this will be a fun G.O. for you to venture on, much like the A train/L train combo you did last month.
I just looked at the TA website and the G.O. was removed from there. I will tryto find out if it was canceled or it is just something wrong with the site.
Robert
It's new so the G.O. listing on the NYCT web site may be posted this Friday, it's the day when the site updates it's service advisories.
Yeah, maybe it will ;-) Man if L riders aren't hit with a shuttle bus then they're hit with something else. I saw the flyer when I was riding the L yesterday [I rode the shuttle bus yesterday no trains from Lorimer to Broadway Junction; good thing its only one weekend; I posted my story on Bustalk].
Here's what I think may happen:
1. 8 Av to Union Sq-> single track shuttle
2. Union Sq to Lorimer->single track then switches leaving Lorimer switching onto the Manhattan bound track
3. Lorimer to Rockaway Pkwy-> probably will terminate at the Manhattan bound platform at Lorimer then switches to the Canarsie bound track and heads toward Rockaway Parkway.
That's my predictions, can I be wrong yes.
Does anyone know the plot of this new film? I believe it is a foreign film and played to very good reviews at the Sundance Film Festival.
From the Internet Movie Database:
When his only friend and co-worker dies, a young man born with dwarfism moves to an abandoned train depot in rural New Jersey. Though he tried to maintain a life of solitude, he is soon entangled with an artist who is struggling with a personal tragedy and an overly-friendly Cuban hot dog vendor.
Ummmm, okay ....
That's peculiar....
Well, it's not a foreign film, but it might as well be :)
Was probably made by foreign filmmakers, just like that movie "L.I.E" (Long Island Expressway). Was filmed in some spots on Long Island, but if you sit through all the credits, most of them are, I believe, French.
>>> Was probably made by foreign filmmakers <<<
Like "Bagdad Café" (American title), a German film set in California which has European tourists regularly stopping in the tiny town in the desert on old Rte 66 to see the place it was filmed.
Tom
That's a normal flim at Sundance...
Now that I hear the synopsis, I remember I heard it reviewed on WFUV. Although the characters are all weird on the surface, you don't feel sorry for them. The reviewer liked the film.
A unanimous decision by the STB on Giulford RR's appear of a previous ruling that allowed 79mph "Class 4" status to the 115-lb rail line has now prompted the downeaster trains to increase speed from 60 to 79 mph, cutting some 15 minutes off of the trip time. Guilford has vehimently opposed the 79mph running for some reason, but he STB ruled that 79mph running would be safe of the 115# rail if Amtrak/NE Passenger Rail Auth make some minor upgrades to the line which they did.
Great news. Now if only I had the time to take another trip to Maine!
Too bad I can't see Bangor and Aroostook trains there anymore, though.
Mark
A ruling is just a ruling. The 79mph has not been implemented yet. Guilford can still put up "speed restrictions" if it wants. No start date for the improved running time has been set by Amtrak. More details from this week's Destination:Freedom newsletter.
Thanks Todd, for at least proving that Jerky Mikes postings from destination freedom can be done via links, rather than cut and paste. As he insists on doing weekly.
Peace,
ANDEE
D:F dosen't work on Netscape.
It doesn't? I use 4.74 with Win 98/2nd edition at home, and 4.6someting on Mac OS/9 at work... each with no problem.
That's funny, worked fine in 4.78
Well Selkirk was the one who was bitching about it. I'll try posting links next time and see if anyone complains. Personally I feel that just reading the text is better than following links.
Ahh, stop being so transparent. You're just trying to increase your message count. You have said as much in the past.
Peace,
ANDEE
Posting messages or links each generate one message, it makes no difference in that regard which one I do. The main reason post from D:F because it has articles that people should read
Mike -
Next time post one message with a link to each of the appropriate articles. See whether anybody complains.
That stimies discussion of the various topics. The thread title catches people's interest and one thread per topic makes it easier for people to comment on. You post seperate threads for the Inkie articles you find.
I accept your first point.
I post separate threads for separate Inkie articles because they appear on different days. I can't remember posting two in one day (this implies that I haven't done it this week).
Netscape 4.79 and the current 7.0 are technically two entirely different animals. 4.79 was the last real Netscape. It worked well, but can no longer handle VIA Rail and Best Western among others. 6.2 and 7.0 (both tedious to set up, especially for Subtalk) were written by the AOLers after Case fired the Netscape brains.
I like those headlines posted.
If they can do 79 MPH, they can do 110. Make Chuck Yeager the engineer. Give them the JUICE!!!!!!! CI peter
Guilford has such a heart-warming attitude (barf-bag, anyone)?
This train should be running at 79 mph. The truth is, Guilford's freight trains (do they run freight or was this a defunct line before, making my comment inapplicable?) should be running at 79 mph too.
Maintain the track and quit whining, I say.
Cool. I just did ERU downloads on a #5 and the T/O cranked the R142
downhill with a breeze at 46 MPH. I did 35 MPH on a scoot board going down Lexington Avenue from 86th Street based on a taxis spedometer...my transets are soooo slow. CI peter
Washington Post article about WMATA's latest effort to enforce the no-eating rules.
I was surfing NYCsubway.org and I saw that the sharp curve after Sutter Ave. (Manhattan-Bound) will be no more because the elevated structure above Snediker Avenue will be no more, along with much of the old Fulton El structure and a substantial portion of the Atlantic Avenue station. Construction on this project is scheduled to be complete in 2003. Does anybody have any additional information to this project?
L Line - Sutter Ave. (Manhattan Bound)
Joseph D. Korman has a great site, Joe Korner, with some info/pics you might be interested in
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/canarsie2001/index.html
That structure will come down soon, it was supposed to take place on 12/13 at the last day, (bad luck, Friday the 13th) but the infamous Transit strike threat put that and many other G.O.'s on hold that weekend. It will come doen VERY soon, like by April the latest. Ride the L train, look out the side window if you have to, and you will see the new trackage. Or go do a search on Subtalk and enter 12/8/02 through about 12/12/02 as the dates, we recently had a ERA R33 redbird trip with some pictures of the track realignment as we rode out to/from Canarsie on Sunday 12/8/02
Well you basically pointed out everything on the Atlantic Av project; everything that you said is suppose to happen. They removed(ing) the extra platforms & tracks at Atlantic Av and the turn will be gone so to everybody railfan now on the L before its too late. Also, ride the R42's while they're still out there!
At about 11 AM today, heading outbound on the inbound express track just west of Forest Hills: an all silver totally unmarked 2-car train. Looks just like regular passenger cars (I'm not an expert on models) but no markings.
Maybe this has been mentioned, but I don't recall it.
Any ideas?
Testing the M-7?
A strange sight on the LIRR? You mean, like, a train that's clean and on-time?
Does anybody know what this guy is talking about Phase V Superliner Cars? Phase V Superliner
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Phaze V is the "Acela" paint scheeme.
Phaze I is "heritage"*
Phaze II is "red nose"*
Phaze III is three stripe r/w/b
Phaze IV is "NE Direct"
Phaze V is "Acela"
Phaze VI/IVa is the return NE Direct take 2
*Heritgae might actuall be Phaze 0 with Phaze II being r/w/b stripes with a small white stripe.
I know exactly what Phase V is, I need to know is there a Phase V Superliner? I only seen the Superliners in Phase IV so far, I was aware there was a Phase V Superliner.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Well evidently the person posting the message saw one heading out of Chicago so I assume that it exists.
An article on MARTA's spending habits. Nat Ford has given us a fare increase and cut service, while we give him nice places to eat.
There's a mistake in the article, though, there is NO WAY that MARTA has 48,000 employees when the entire GA state gov't has only 100,000 people. The reporter probably meant 4,800.
No, no, no - we gave you Nat Ford JR. A recent rumor, though, has him coming to Ny to replace his dad.
And to think, "Senior" is a former conductor. Heh.
(according to the article anyway)
No, the article is correct. Nat Ford of the NYCTA and Nat P. Ford of MARTA do not share complete names. Therefore junior is no "Jr." Poppa Ford has no initial "P" and therein lies the difference.
"Thanks, NYC, for giving us Nat Ford"
No problem! Just one thing, Can you please come get his father too?
"'Thanks, NYC, for giving us Nat Ford'
"No problem! Just one thing, Can you please come get his father too? "
ROTFLMAO. Amen to that.
RobfromAtlanta,
Ditto on the gracias!
While I'm pissed that he left, I've been watching him since the 80s, his career is on the wane. The Mets will still continue the way they always conclude a game, losing.
I hear ya... ATL was untouchable in 1991 with GLAVINE-SMOLTZ-AVERY-
JUSTICE-GANT-and all the others under Bobby Cox.. In fact, I think
you folks had the STRONGEST rotation in all of tobacco spit that yr.
OT is OT.. Back to the trains~! :)
Here is an article today about Ford's response.
Oh, and a column about a proposed trolley for Atlanta has a paragraph poking fun at MARTA frills:
And now we learn that MARTA executives spend thousands of the taxpayers' dollars on steak dinners, and thousands more on private trainers to help them work off their bellies!
To all,
I have posted the itinerary and other information for SubTalk DC on April 5th on my website. I encourage anyone interested in coming on the trip to read it. There might be some sort of Amtrak discount depending on when you buy your tickets so check out amtrak.com for more info on that. The next step is to devise contingency plans on what to do if the cherry blossoms are not in bloom, and I will post info there when I finish that.
Click here for the SubTalk DC Page. I suggest you bookmark this and e-mail me to join the STDC mailing list, informing you of future updates to that page. I also asked Dave to add this to the upcoming events list.
Hope to see a few of you in April!
Just added one thing, if you already read it, look for the thing about Lindsay Layton. If you haven't already read it, what are you waiting for?
During rush hour, does the Flushing Express go in only one direction(Queens Bound)? Because I see there's only one track on the Elevated Track for Express runs.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The # 7 flushing Express runs express in the morning to manhattan and in the evening rush hour express to flushing
john
You're half correct. It runs express to Manhattan during the AM and to Flushing during the PM. It's like the other 3-track lines that have rush hour express service such as the #4 (138th Street), #5, #6 & D in The Bronx.
Wayne
Pick up a subway map and read the service guide in the lower right hand corner. It should answer your questions. For more details, look up the route schedules on the MTA web site.
I don't need to, I already received responses from prevous posts.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I know, but I'm suggesting that before you post such a basic question, you do a few seconds of research on your own, and you might find the answer without wasting our time.
".....nuff said."
Ok How about just not posting? I already had responses, you didn't have to post.
Ignore the critics. At least your post was an intelligent question, not a foolish rant or a trip into the transit twilight zone (like the poster who suggested the MTA buy one common set of rolling stock for all of its rail operators).
BTW, the #7 Express is a little better than a rush only service. It operates from Main St. to Times Sq (southbound operationally, westbound geographically) from about 6:30 AM to 12 Noon. Leaving Times Square is from about 1 PM to 10 PM. And it's one of the best elevated express routes, especially on the straighaway from Woodside to Junction Blvd., and from Junction to Shea when it uses the upper level tracks much like the old 3rd and 9th Ave. Manhattan els with their "hump" stations.
The Flushing Express still is a great ride, yes, but there was nothing like the Super Express. While in high school in the 1950s, I'd go out of my way to ride it, generally eastbound. After switching to the express track past Queens Plaza, the motorman (not train operator in those days) would put the throttle to the post and hold it there until reaching the grade time signal just after 52nd Street on the approach to 61st Street/Woodside. After going through 61st, and not too slowly either, he'd again put it to the post until just before the Junction Boulevard, coast through that station at speed, returning the controller to the post until reaching the top of the hill on the tracks over the 111th Street Station, and then adhering to the grade timer into Willets Point. Going around the curve from Queens Boulevard into Roosevelt Avenue at full speed with a consist of R12s, 14s and 15s is a New York thrill second only to the Cyclone...... Those cars whipped around that curve. Think of those classes of cars as "shorty" R10s and you get the picture as to the speed they were capable of. Although over 4 decades have past since experiencing that operation, it's something no subway fan could ever forget.
Nice story Joe. Wow, those timers after bypassing 52 St and before Willets Point had those timers there forever. Too bad there will never be a super express on the 7 nowadays[well, you never know].
Well I doubt the "Junctioners" would stand for it!
Easy on the boy.
Like YOU've never asked a researchable question?
Ah Greenberger, while he SHOULD have done some research, he asked his question here, his Q was not a waste of time [maybe he's not familiar with peak express services] & its been answered already.
I think that type of response is the kind that alienate people
We are not all MTA workers, more then likely we are just your
average every day shmo, who happens to be into the NYC subways.
Lighten up!
And good question, how many times can we read about the R142 sighting or fantasy subway stops (lions)
Step in & watch the doors!
I apologize if I alienated anyone. I was just a little surprised that a long-time poster here would ask a very basic question that could have been answered by a quick glance at the map or even a Google search. He could have found the information he wanted in less time than it took to post a message here.
Hey, I'm just a jamoche myself. But I understand your feelings. I mean, this Subtalk is the uber transit SIG. It's a fast moving express train. All riders will tend to get annoyed when the train is diverted to the local track....
It's a 2-way track. The express heads toward Manhattan in the AM rush hour when they switch toward Queens-bound in the PM rush hour. Weekdays, of course.
No, it runs in the peak direction, just like the Pelham express, Concourse express and the Bronx thru express[when it returns]. The structures have 3 tracks with the middle being bi-directional.
Flushing express:
6am-12:15pm toward Manhattan
12:45pm-about 10pm toward Flushing
First express train leaves Main St at 6:41 AM, not 6 AM
First express outbound train leaves TS at 12:24, last one at 10:07 PM
Oops, wrong time for the AM, I didn't mean to put that :-p. The first outbound train to Flushing leaves at 12:24pm??? I though it left a little later than that.
It arrives at QBP at around 12:40 PM, around the time you mentioned that PM express service starts. Lately the Flushing Inerlocking signal replacement project has seen the middle track taken out of service from 10 AM to 3 PM weekdays so there is no express service (both ways) during these times.
There is no 5 "Bx Thru" peak express. The Bronx thru express runs towards Manhattan during morning rush hour. Towards Dyre/Nereid Aves during the evening rush hour. During the Middays all 5 trains are local in both directions.
Da Beastmaster
I know it doesn't run during the middays. Ok just disregard the word 'peak' and its alright 8-).
Does anybody remember that idea of building a tunnel from Prospect Park Station west somehow to connect with the F Train? I remember reading about it, must have been 12 to 15 years ago. But I've never seen any further reference to it.
It was in the papers for a few weeks, then, zilch. I'm not sure what the routing would have beeen. Maybe the express trains would connect over to the F line and the locals would continue to 7th Ave. and west.
It was proposed by Assemblyman Daniel Feldman ca. 1982. The idea never went anywhere. The last idea studied was a connection between DeKalb Avenue and the Rutgers Street Tunnel. It would accomplish much the same thing as the "Feldman tunnel," but probably at a lower cost with less disruption since the two subway lines are close to each other near the Manhattan Bridge.
David
It would accomplish much the same thing as the "Feldman tunnel," but probably at a lower cost with less disruption since the two subway lines are close to each other near the Manhattan Bridge.
Not as close as you think. The Culver line ducks under the Manhattan bridge tracks at a point where it's already elevated. Some length of tunnel will be necessary to connect Rutgers to the Flatbush Ave corridor. Not that that's even worthwhile to begin with.
I know the two facilities are not at the same level. It's still shorter than cutting a swath through Prospect Park.
David
Fewer buildings in the park, though.
Agreed. But both options suck. Rutgers cannot handle B, D & F trains at worthwhile headways.
Right now the Rutgers Street Tunnel (F) is not operating at capacity, but traffic levels along the Culver Line/Smith Street Line don't warrant running more F service. Meanwhile, lines feeding DeKalb Avenue are not running at capacity, but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan. The DeKalb/Rutgers connection, while not perfect, allows for two things:
1. Room for additional trains in the event of full Manhattan Bridge service, or
2. A fallback position in the event all or part of the Manhattan Bridge becomes unusable (a possibility in spite of the reconstruction project that should end soon)
David
"but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan."
Just to be picky, there is plenty of room for additional trains to get into Manhattan, through the dreaded Montague Tunnel. (I realize, no one would ride them if they were added.)
I should have said that there is room for precious few additional trains on the Manhattan Bridge and in the Montague Street Tunnel with half the Manhattan Bridge out.
David
Right now only 24 TPH run through Montague St during rush hours, and 27 over the bridge. There is room in the tunnel for more service to be included.
N/R service could be increased by 1 TPH each without difficulty.
...which is why I at least once used the term "precious few". I am well aware that neither the bridge nor the tunnel currently has 30 trains per hour (as I am well aware that nominal signal capacity is 40 trains per hour, not that that's achievable given everything that's been done to the signals since their albeit recent installation).
David
Right now the Rutgers Street Tunnel (F) is not operating at capacity, but traffic levels along the Culver Line/Smith Street Line don't warrant running more F service.
Once the V is extended to Church Ave, that excess capacity will be filled.
Meanwhile, lines feeding DeKalb Avenue are not running at capacity, but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan.
A fully operational bridge will create more capacity than is necessary to fulfill current service requirements. This will negate any need for a costly Flatbush/Rutgers connection.
The DeKalb/Rutgers connection, while not perfect, allows for two things:
1. Room for additional trains in the event of full Manhattan Bridge service, or
Totally unnecessary.
2. A fallback position in the event all or part of the Manhattan Bridge becomes unusable (a possibility in spite of the reconstruction project that should end soon)
A totally unrealistic possibility. The rehab job will allow full service to resume. This is not wishfull thinking. It's fact.
Even the current setup (half a bridge) provides enough capacity for the southern division of the BMT to get the minimum amount of adequate service.
The IND line from Bergen to Church really needs 2 Manhattan-bound lines so that those express tracks can be used. The extra capacity on Rutgers St. should be reserved for resolving that problem only.
Frankly, I've never been a big fan of either proposal (Feldman's or NYC Transit's), pretty much for the reasons David Greenberger articulated (although I'm not too confident that the V will be extended to Church Avenue any time soon given NYCT's budget crunch). However, if pressed to pick one of the two, I'd go for DeKalb/Rutgers due to cost considerations and the ability to decide which among several routes to send via Rutgers Street, rather than just having the Brighton be able to go there.
David
Me? What reasons did I articulate? This is my first post in this thread.
One possible advantage to a Prospect Park connector is that, if it can be connected to the BMT south of the Prospect Park station, the local-express merge there could be eliminated by sending all locals or all expresses across the park to the IND. (There still is a merge with the F north of Bergen, but any plan of this sort has to have a merge with the F somewhere.) But I'm sure the price tag would be astronomical.
Sorry...meant "Chris R27-30".
David
Yes, I can see how you can get our names confused. (smirk)
My brother's name is David. My grandparents always mixed us up. I'm used to responding to the name "David". LOL
The IND line from Bergen to Church really needs 2 Manhattan-bound lines so that those express tracks can be used.
Just because express tracks are there it doesn't mean they have to be used.
Just because express tracks are there it doesn't mean they have to be used.
True, but these tracks are useful.
Oh, I don't know about that James. My Sea Beach has an express track and it is sometimes used-------BY THE WEST END OR SOME OTHER LINE- but never the Sea Beach. Of course, as much as I like the West End, you know what I think of that arrangement.
Ah, work it out anyway you can. The Brighton and the Culver, tweedle dum and tweedle dee. They deserve each other.
Ah yes, at least they have better viewS of the neighborhoods they transverse in, unlike your Slum-Beach which is an eyesore to look a the ugly SBRW Freight line, and NO express service AT ALL since 1968.
May I suggest to you that I think you need more bran in your diet===if you catch my drift, However, congratulations are in order for your finally leaving the Kool Head toilet you were in. Good to see the light of day again, huh?
Are you trying to tell me that my head is in a place where the sun doesn't shine? Very funny, we should have an impartial poll RIGHT NOW, as to which subtalker likes better; your Sea Beach or my Brighton Line (sorry, those who live at or near these lines are not eligible.)
Hey, I don't live anywhere near either of them, and could care less about either of them, THEY are NOT subways. They are outside and I like trains that run underground.
Peace,
ANDEE
There Kool-D, Andee has settled the argument between us once and for all, though I kind of like a subway that goes both above and below ground. Variety I guess. And, yes, I like open cuts, too.
No Kool-D, you would win that one. There are more Brighton fans on Subtalk than Sea Beach ones. I will concede that. Remember, though, we Sea Beachers think that quality is more important than quantity. The Sea Beach boys on this site are a quality pack, pure and simple.
But you cannot hear quality Russian music or buy quality batteries on the Sea Beach Line. The quality of my stations are much better too, by end of 2005, ALL stations on the Brighton lines, with the exception on 7th Ave/Park Slope, will be fully renovated, how does your Sea Beach stack up in quality on this?
We were talking about quality of people and not of stations. Your line has been treated with kid gloves while mine has been totally neglected. There can be no argument on that and that is why I have been in a lather the past few years.
But how do stations get renovated, let alone built? PEOPLE, QUALITY OF PEOPLE AND ITS' WORK. Fred, can you prove me wrong that something else besides people can renovate stations, besides the tools and equipment they use?
If the right people have a will-to-do then it can be done. For whatever reason the TA has decided the Sea Beach isn't worth their time. Maybe they don't have the ridership that the Brighton has but that's no reason to treat it like a disgraced relative. FYI, Sea Beach fanatics are very rabid about their line and always have been and we are not pleased that all we see when we ride our train is filth, peeling paint, and a rundown condition that reminds me of a worn torn city.
I wish that they would clean up the Sea Beach Line. It is a DISGRACE!!
#3 West End Jeff
What also happened that a lot of park advocates screamed, because it meant building another tunnel under Prospect Park. It probably would have also meant knocking down a bunch of buildings by the Brighton line.
Who even came up with this bizarre idea anyway? It sounds almost as far fetched as sending the 4th Avenue Local over the Verrazano to Staten Island. I heard that one proposed here a year or so ago. Maybe I could come up with a gem of my own for improved transit, and, yes, it would include my Sea Beach, the signature line of the NY Subway even if most of you and the TA doesn't know it anymore.
I didn't--that's for sure. A former NYS Assembly Member did.
Yeah, I believe that same study proposed putting the Canarsie "L" line in the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch cut(nearly abandoned at that time).
I had read somewhere it the tunnel would be from Prospect Park on the D/Q and the express track after 7th Avenue on the F.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/04/1044122365256.html
also pictures at
http://www.theage.com.au/photogallery/2003/02/04/1044122330125.html
The runaway was the Comeng EMU in the pictures. The stationary train was a loco hauled commuter. the Loco is a V Line N Class EMD Co Co hood with a cab at each end. It came off better than the EMU!!
According to NY1, http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
A piece of New York City subway history can now be yours to keep. In the following report, NY1 Transit Reporter Bobby Cuza tells us how those old "Redbird" trains, which are being phased out, can live on.
What are known as the “Redbirds” - the city's oldest working subway cars - have been around since the 1964 World's Fair. But you won't be seeing them much longer, unless you're a deep-sea diver.
Soon, the last of the Redbirds will retire under the sea, where their new passengers are of the aquatic variety. Transit officials began an artificial reef program a year and a half ago, and nearly 900 Redbird cars have been sunk off the coasts of Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia.
Now, with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority facing a major budget crisis, they've come up with another way to squeeze some use out of the old trains: selling off the parts as souvenirs.
“We’ve gotten a lot of inquiries from people who are transit buffs, and just passengers and people who've ridden these trains for years,” said Michael Zacchea of NYC Transit Asset Recovery. “Reading in the papers, and knowing that they're going to be retired, [they] want to get a little piece of history.”
Horns, stanchion poles, controller's handles, and even those train number and destination signs can be yours, for a price. Those old metal handholds which are no longer made? $15, shipping and handling not included.
“It's something that would be really cool to have - a sign, or you know, a pole or something from the train,” said one straphanger. “It brings back memories of what they were like.”
As they're taken out of service, the trains are brought to the 207th Street rail yard, where they're stripped of any parts that'll float or degrade. The shells are then washed, stacked on a barge, and shipped off to their watery graves.
So, would straphangers really pay for an old Redbird souvenir?
“Nah, I wouldn't waste my money. But somebody might,” said one commuter.
“I would buy it, and then maybe hold onto it and see what type of value it has a little later on,” said another straphanger.
The most expensive item on the list - the rolling destination sign - goes for $300. But don't expect this program to help avert a fare hike.
“We don't think we're going to close the budget gap with the sales from these materials, but we think it is revenue that would have otherwise been unrealized,” said Zacchea.
The collectibles are on sale now on the MTA web site, located at www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
And at least for the next several months, you might still catch a glimpse of the Redbirds in action on the numbered lines, like the No. 7 train to Queens. The last batch of about 400 cars will be taken out of service this summer.
- Bobby Cuza
"The last batch of about 400 cars will be taken out of service this summer"........?
....................are there 400 cars to replace them .........?...
.................!!!!
By the time the cars are retired, their replacements will have been delivered, tested, and accepted for service.
David
HAHA...stop making sense...it means nothing to BIG Sal...
Peace,
ANDEE
The scuttlebutt on the December fantrip is that several sets of R33's and R36's will be cherry-picked and not sunk since there will not be enough equipment to run the service comfortably.
That's just what it is...scuttlebutt. Things can always change (at least until the time the last cars go kersploosh), but at last check enough cars had been purchased (1,550) to cover the demise of all 1,401 "Redbirds" and then some.
David
NO!!!!!!!!!! You'll learn to run really fast when the Scuds drop and save a token. 239th yard is Redbird Free so far. Fourteen months on the job and today I came home clean because I DID software downloads. The next pick is coming about and i pray that the Lord will keep my crew together. Once East 180th loses Redbirds, #7 will be the last. CI Peter
I guess after the summer, we will be referring to silverbirds... =(
American Airlines is short on cash, and for many years they've called their planes Silverbirds. Their lawyers might see your wit as a potential source of income!
of course NY1 got the years wrong redbirds came about in the late 1950's and the Flushing Redbirds made their appreance in 1964
"the Flushing Redbirds made their appreance in 1964"
A little tidbit of info to impress your friends at a party:
The very first Flushing cars arrived in October of 1963 and they were all single units (R-33S)
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice to see TA come to it's senses... or is this an illusion?
Oh, sure it won't avert a fare hike... look how well TA
counts it's own money..... they don't seem to get the
zeroes right!
I saw that MTA web site Redbird "parts" sale. A couple of things caught my eye.
1) Storm doors without handles. Are they missing from all storm doors for sale ? If so, why bother to buy the door without the locking handle ?
2) Controller "handle". A controller handle on a stick ? Why not sell the entire controller. That's like selling a car without the engine and tranny !
3) Exp/Local glass signs. While the glass Exp signs are red and glass local signs are green, I've seen a GREEN Exp sign. They do exist, but how many are out there is anybody's guess.
4) I'm disappointed no Redbird trucks are offered for sale, they would make great lawn ornaments !!
Bill "Newkirk"
5) Brake stand (pipeage can be chopped of course) ... but that, like a WHOLE controller stand comes with switches that can be connected up to a joystick port for computer train simulator use ... damned shame ...
Maybe TA should work out a deal with East 180th Street. We need parts to keep the last of the #5 Redbirds going. What is left should go to BERA. Crew thinks I have all this Redbird paraphenalia hanging from my apartment walls....the only thing I ever bring home is those blue leather gloves which I wear the next day in the yard. BigLots has em for 99 cents sans the NYCTA rubber stamp.
...And any parts NOT donated to BERA should be sent to the Heypaul R-9 Cab Restoration Fund...'a subway cab is a terrible thing to waste'...
Hey, he has a cab already, I wanted one of the cars to put in my backyard, then I could exploit the rest of you since I would hopefully be the only one. Unless you wanted to take a swim off the coast of Delaware, you would have to come to my place (provided any of you figured out where it is).
I have an old token here that looks like it's on steroids. They tell me that this was for the Aqueduct Special, a service which left the lower level of 42/8 Av., stopped at Jay Street, and on to the racetrack. I clearly recall the train, ,and the lower level of 42 St., but don't remember EVER seeing a turnstile that accepted this token. How about it?
That was O-N-E of it's uses. It also was an Express Bus token.
The stop in Brooklyn for the Aqueduct Specials was at Hoyt~Schermerhorn
with the fare control closest to the Bond Street exit on the mezzanine and
loading on the south platform segregated from the regular platform for Fulton Street
and Crosstown Services. There was also segregated fare control at 8th Ave/42nd Street to the lower level. Special Tokens for Special Turnstyles.
;-) Sparky
They used the escalator at the extreme southern end of the 42nd St. mezzanine for that purpose. It was clearly marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". I always thought it was abandoned even back in the late 60s because the escalator was fenced off on Saturday mornings. Sometimes I would walk over and check it out. Once in a while, they'd leave it running.
Right, it goes down to the single track lower level. Only way down there now is a small door under one of the stairs that goes up. That door looks like it goes to a closet, but it don't.
There is also a trap door in the platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
I used to stare down the southermost staircase to the lower level from the main s/b platform on Saturdays while waiting for an A train. A "42" sign was visible on one of the pillars. You could just climb over the chains and walk down the stairs. Never did that, though.
Hold onto that token!! There are not that many around.
Unlike all the other past tokens, some "genius" in the TA didn't think anyone would want to buy them as memorabilia so they sold them as scrap. The Transit Museum found out about it too late to get any to sell (that is why you never see any in the TM store).
I was able to get 1 from a former co-worker who was using them at the time the tokens were used for the Express Bus. If I had known that they were going to be destroyed I would have spent several hundred dollars to buy as many as I could. I saw one on ebay but it never sold because the seller wanted too much $$$. It has not been offered since.
"Unlike all the other past tokens, some "genius" in the TA didn't think anyone would want to buy them as memorabilia so they sold them as scrap. The Transit Museum found out about it too late to get any to sell (that is why you never see any in the TM store)."
Your story is identical to the "Special Fare" tokens that met the same fate. A "Special Fare" token is your garden variety "Y" token, but the "Y" isn't cut out. The metal is SILVER in color and on the reverse side is says "Special Fare".
This token was minted to use on the JFK Express and never used. Paper tickets were used instead. I have one of these tokens I bought at a coin show ten years ago, sorry, not parting with it.
I heard of the "sold for scrap" story a month after the TA disposed of them. I though to myself, where are the brains in this organization? Those Special Fare and large Aqueduct Special tokens would have sold great and brought in more money than selling them for scrap. Sheessh !
From the Atwood-Coffee Fifth edition catalogue of transportation tokens.
(Aqueduct Special/Express Bus token)
Cat# NY - 630AP 28mm brass Y-stencil cut Cat. value $ 4.00
(Special Fare token)
Cat# NY - 630AX 23mm white metal solid Cat. value $ 6.00
These catalogue values may have to be upgraded since thousands of these tokens were sold for scrap and what remains are scarce.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
The $4.00 that the Atwood-Coffee catolog has for the Aqueduct token is exactly what it cost for use on the Express Bus. It is definetly worth much more than that (and I have no intention of parting with mine).
With the amount of information that those catologs have (I have yet to be able to buy one - the ones offered on ebay go so fast) I doubt if they can ever keep up with all the different nuances.
I never knew that there was a "Special Fare" token minted. Yours is the first that I have ever heard of. I wonder if anyone else here has one or heard of it. In any event, it gives me something to keep an eye out for. Who knows there may be a few more out there somewhere.
I agree with you, had the TM been able to get ahold of them they would have been a best seller. I remember when they had a bunch of Bulls-eye Archer Av tokens kept on the side at the GCT store (that was my idea) for anyone who was looking for them specifically, those sold out as fast as they could find them in each new batch they were given to sell.
Thanks for the info update.
Allan
Allen said: "With the amount of information that those catologs have (I have yet to be able to buy one - the ones offered on ebay go so fast) I doubt if they can ever keep up with all the different nuances."
You have to join the association to get a AVA catalog. Membership includes a monthly newsletter "The Farebox".
It's an exclusive club, so you have to be recomended < g >
e-mail me privately if interested. I also belong to TAMS, but they're into mostly "good for" coins, i.e. Romie's Place - Good For 25 Cents
I'm on a westbound NH local being held at Harrison for 15 minutes minimum. Whole NEC down to one track waiting for police. Does someone have a source on this?
I JUST got off the phone with A 8AV FULTON EXP who works at GCT. He just told me MNRR had their first "12-9" of the year. He explained that they must have really wanted to die since that's the fastest point on the line. Such a shame.
Having to sit and think makes you ... well, sit and think. I wouldn't want to be the coroner or the family up at the next station. And whoever the train operator was, that's just the last person on the face of the earth I'd want to be right now.
Tough all around. Condolences to all involved.
I had a similar occurrence last week here in England - 2.5 hour delay on the way home last Wednesday evening due to a fatality on the line ahead of us and police in occupation of the track. The driver of our train (clearly long-serving) was on the platform chatting to some of the passengers, and revealed that he had had this distressing experience three times in his career. he was clearly concerned for his colleague on the train ahead of ours which had actually struck the person (in the dark, in open countryside).
Didn't mean entire northeast corridor lengthwise, obviously; crosswise shut down except westbd local since c 2130, eastbd local cleared c 2245.
Oddly today (tues) I could find no coverage of the story anywhere.
I think I passed there shortly after removal of the train and the deceased (around 11). I think they had just opened up the NY bound track. There was still some official looking people standing on the NY bound platform.
Also, I missed my connection to the New Canaan by 6 minutes. I guess it doesn't wait around for its designated feeder train, it just leaves on schedule.
The previous New Canaan had been canceled at Stamford (if that was the 9:00). They took them up on buses. They were in meltdown mode last night.
yea from Grand Central point of View, all MNRR employees who was headed in from the NH line was stranded. some of my 11pm-7am co workers didnt show till 12midnight. the 1040 arriving train from stamford arrived 1145! also, the 940 stamford local was cancelled! thats something i have never seen the omega board say
Yeah, that was my 1040. I'm glad I didn't run for the 940. MNRR has a superb record (subjectively speaking); on time when things go well, good communications when they have to hold you up. They're thoughtful and sincere and open.
hi, just joined the club..this is a test..will f/u with my backround/interests/views....pete
welcome brah... but first things first, this ain't no club...
we iz family down in here... some of us are in NY, some in
PA, some in UK... some of us threaten to leave (but never do!)...
some of us go by real names, some by entire transit systems, and
some peculiar chaps go by the names of curved subway stations..
you are given a killfile feature, which bar-none is truly the best
thing since sliced donut holes.. oh, and please.... be careful
whom you say "f/u" to.
f/u..as in follow-up...and thanx for breakin me in.
might as well make my debut..am at work as of this writing..wmployed by the local utility in the emerg control center..am 52 yrs old..live in da bronx but work in westchester...i am a train/navy/antique car buff in no particular order..own a 55 pontiac convert and 72 monte carlo .currently involved in preserving a decommed aircraft carrier as a museum somewhere where we can generate interest & funds..and always was intriqued by the ny subway system as well as railroads in general...took the #6 for years going to school in the bronx and college in manhatten..remember the bad old days of deferred maint and graffitti but yearn for the old equipment that i was accustomed to (especially the 'birds)..i'll be a rather passive member of this 'family'..probably will only speak out when i have something really earthshaking to say or report. been reading these posts for a while i have observed many knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative..will keep in touch.
Welcome to the SubTalk 'family'.
With your interest in the Navy and in trains, I suspect you'll appreciate these Webshots photos of a chartered Earle Naval Weapons Station train on land and on the pier.
Bob
Larry Talbot (aka wolfman) said that he:
"probably will only speak out when i have something really earthshaking to say or report. been reading these posts for a while i have observed many knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative"
Although he didn't mention me by name as one of the knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative, I know he had me in mind and wanted to thank him for recognizing my inestimable contribution to this board.
And it really isn't necessary to have something earthshaking to report, as most of the posts here attest.
goes without saying..you are a definitive factor in educating yours truly in the fine points/idiosyncrosis (spelling?) of the nyc transit system...many thanx past and future...btw..my name is pete.
Welcome to Subtalk wolfman. Enjoy your time here at Subtalk, always something to talk about here, very interesting topics, etc.
Here's an idea to relive crowding on the Meadowbrook and Wantagh Parkways during the summer. How about extending the LIRR to the barrier islands on Long Island?
The idea I have is to have a two track spur off the Babylon Branch just past the Freeport Station and the Meadowbrook Pkwy. The spur would parallel the parkway to Jones Beach via a causeway, then run right near the beaches to Robert Moses State Park. Stations would be placed at Jones Beach, Captree State Park, and RMSP.
Is this project possible and a good idea?
Not enough year round business. Unlike Coney and Rockaway, nobody lives near those beaches. I hate to say it, but the beaches are best served by buses. And there is a good enough business for that. Hell, the S47 route from Babylon rail to Robert Moses Beach is the only bus that runs on Sundays and Holidays in Suffolk County.
You should check out the Long Beach, LI station.
Good point, but I only meant Jones Beach, not Long Beach. Oh well, seemed like a good idea.
it is easily possible to build, but when people goto the beach is when all trains run local rockville centre-babylon.
is there a big enough demand for a service from jones beach-freeport?
maybe a light rail shuttle between the two. not main line direct service.
one other aspect-there are layup tracks just west of the meadowbrook, which whould need some engineering to keep
I think the current bus service from the train would be sufficient. Besides, the people that do live there would never allow a train to run there. Bad enough RM built the roads there, and he didn't get to extend east from RM state park like he wanted.
Consider, there is a wilderness area less than 50 miles from Manhattan that can be reached by public transport (train, ferry).
I don't think there would be enough room to run along Ocean Parkway between Jones & Captree.
By the way, I sense Robert Moses is turning over in his grave after reading your post!!
By the way, I sense Robert Moses is turning over in his grave after reading your post!!
Ka-THUMP Ka-THUMP Ka-THUMP!
Read on NY1.com that the MTA is auctioning off parts from retired Redbirds. This is great....if you have the cash! Rollsigns do cost as much as 300 bucks.
They mention that "pressure from transit buffs" was a factor. Anyone here instrumental in this? :-)
ME??? #5 lead tech??? A dickweed accused me of having a storehouse of stuff. Rollsign busted...place car in the middle. Glass cracked...silicon or duct tape. AC freon leaking..pump down and shut off. We can't get the stuff to fix em anymore. What my crew on the #5 can do is provide a passenger and system safe trainset. I don't even have a notebook for sale....it's all in my head. Subway lightbulbs are a dim brown...I use compact fls. They have straps and poles and seats...the stuff that won't rust away in the ocean. I can scoop up black steel dust/brake shoe residue/grease for medicinal purposes. Anyone for worn composite brake shoes??? How about it TA for some real parts for Branford??? CI Peter
Parts? Let them send a whole car over!
-Stef
Stef, if there was any way I could get you five married pairs with scratchittied windows, bad door rubbers, leaking valves, worn brake shoes, shot brake cylinders, burned group boxes, 18 X 4 wheels, dead convertors, collapsed storm doors, defective J14s, empty refrigerant tanks and leaking compressor seals, blown head D4s, burned out portions..............I would without hesitation. Two years ago I was servicing the most advanced pinball machines, video games and simulators available in the amusement industry. Never knew how Lionel trains worked. Miss those vendors in the subway you put a penny into and got Chiclets from. Now it's 'In the Hole speak English BIE.' The Lord does work in mysterious ways and I stopped asking why. Unca Steve is very wise and I've learned an awful lot from him. CI Peter
I think they are talking about that link to the MTA site that was posted here yesterday.
---Brian
We've GOTTA chip in and get Salaam one of those storm doors, hopefully one with the handle assembly still on it. :)
LOL!
Give him the door......I need the handle
No handle for you until someone coughs up a pair of stands with all the fixin's, mustard and kraut. Hold the onions and the D4 on a half shell. :)
Yeah, I think heypaul is itching for some spare parts for his cab...
Even the deadman stick might be auctioned off too...
Even better idea, sell the full cab (brakes, deadman, etc...) as one so we can definitely have a real simulator...
*BIG* problem in what they're selling ... you need the WHOLE cabinet to get the necessary switches, detents and spring. I looked at that (and was hoping to get a brakestand as well since the electric brake switch cam and contacts would have made for a complete BVE or MSTS starting ground. But just the lid with the handle (without the whole cabinet) and no brake stand cabinet does make it a bit unattractive and very much *NOT* Heypaul quality ...
Wonder if MTA would be willing to sell the pair of cabinets for say $500? I'd pay up to a GRAND for the pair ... but no sale on just the "lid" of one stand. Nope ... nice try. I'm sure folks who don't know what it is will buy what's available though.
Quite true, Selly. The MTA's in the hole, you'd think they'd milk this entire opportunity.
I honestly don't think it occurred to them that there'd be much of an interest in the whole assemblies for use with train simulators. Chances are the folks who handle this looked at the controller lid and thought that was pretty much the whole thing. I've even seen certified subway foamers who had a pair of stands BACKWARDS in their cab in the assumption that things were correct. No names, please ...
But one has to admit, my particular request is unique. Probably no more than five other people even likely to want to have both stands COMPLETE for use with a computer train simulator. But man, sure would love to have a pair of complete cabinets with all the fixin's, though I'd REALLY like to have a pair removed from an R9 or R10 ... many more possibilities for wiring those up to a joystick port though the 33/36 stands are close enough.
Hell, I'd make the trip to remove them myself if that is considered too much of a pain in the butt for a CI or car maintainer to rip out. No asbestos in those either as far as I know ...
You guyz want my arms and legs too?
Nah, just your top charger and your cutting key. :)
The story's from Reuters on the proposed cuts to long-distance service in the Bush budget released today.
Nothing really that surprising, based on the debate that went on a year ago during the Amtrak funding crisis. And I really don't see what's so wrong about telling states along routes that are losing $250-$350 per passenger that if they want to keep their long distance trains, they should have to pony up some cash on their own. The current system penalizes states like New York and New Jersey, where Amtrak routes are far closer to the break-even point, to fund lines through areas that are far lest profitable, but who have Senators and Congressmen with enough clout to keep the funds flowing for those routes.
Everybody knows about the 2/5 GO this weekend, but there is another big GO in the wings. The #3 train will run New Lots to 137St-Bway. Things will be pretty interesting this weekend on the Upper West Side/Harlem area.
Da Beastmaster
Could we expect shuttle buses running from 135 St to 148 St replacing 3 service for the weekend. That's going to be interesting, only 2's will be serving the Lenox portion up to 135.
Everybody knows about the 2/5 GO this weekend, but there is another big GO in the wings. The #3 train will run from New Lots to 137St-Bway. Things will be pretty interesting this weekend on the Upper West Side/Harlem area.
Da Beastmaster
Beastmaster in the house.
What is the 3 GO for?
-Stef
Yes, I saw the posting. I assume it will run local north of 96th. What about south of 96th?
IDK since I havent seen the actual GO sheets. The last time the 3 was sent up Bway, NB trains were local from 72St on up. SB trains crossed at 96St.
Da Beastmaster
Randy Kennedy explains why it takes so long to fix escalators in this week's Tunnel Vision column.
Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex.
The article does suggest several circumstances that apply to subway escalators that would apply less to other escalators:
- Deliberate vandalism
- Less space underneath makes it harder to fix them when they break
- More usage, both total usage per day and maximum load at any given time
When I dissed Trainor in a previous post, I forgot about the 24-hour usage. That's a nasty environment.
The article does suggest several circumstances that apply to subway escalators that would apply less to other escalators:
- Deliberate vandalism
- Less space underneath makes it harder to fix them when they break
- More usage, both total usage per day and maximum load at any given time.
The first and third reasons could account for a higher failure rate on subway escalators vs., for example, those in shopping malls, but they wouldn't justify the absurdly long time it takes to make repairs. The lack of workspace and other physical constraints might make it somewhat more time-consuming to effect repairs, but I can't see these reasons accounting for the huge time difference that exists.
If the NYCT managers responsible for escalator maintenance and operations held similar jobs in the private sector, they wouldn't have those jobs for long. Poor performance simply wouldn't be tolerated. But because this is the subway, no one in authority cares.
"Poor performance simply wouldn't be tolerated. But because this is the subway, no one in authority cares."
You sure hit this matter on the bullseye, if you use a station in Manhattan, the escalators are fine, but if you are unlucy enough to be outside of Manhattan, good luck in hiking upstairs:
The culprits where NYCT is known for gross mismanagement are:
Escalators at Court St/BMT (still not fully installed)
Escalators AND elevators at 161 St/River Ave (only runs when there is a Yankee Game, other times one or both escalators are out. When it took a year and a half to replace the second escalator back in 1999 you had to hike it upstairs to the #4 platform, the other one never worked.)
Prospect Park/Brighton Line elevators (supposed to be operational last October, NOT!)
Entire Broadway Junction complex (The contractor working on this complex, is also responsible for the 14th St/8th Ave fiasco.)
2 Broadway (enough said!)
You sure hit this matter on the bullseye, if you use a station in Manhattan, the escalators are fine,
Really? You mean like the subject of the Times article? Or like West 4th? Delancey? 53/Lex? Times Square? There aren't many escalators in Manhattan to begin with, and the ones that are there hardly have a phenomenal success rate.
Entire Broadway Junction complex (The contractor working on this complex, is also responsible for the 14th St/8th Ave fiasco.)
Every single time I'm in this station, two escalators are running. I find that pretty amazing, and I'm surprised you bring it up here.
"Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex."
No, they are not "just as complex." And they are subjected to nothing even remotely close to the abuse and pounding that transit elevators get. And that's not even counting deliberate vandalism.
Show me your favorite Macy's escalator and its passengers. The escalators (and passengers) at 51-Lex, 53-Lex, Jamaica Center and 74th-Broadway would make your escalator look like a Sunday school picnic.
Where I wrote "transit elevators" I meant "transit escalators."
"Where I wrote "transit elevators" I meant "transit escalators."..."
You can might as well include transit elevators, as the elevator at Grand Central to the #7 line platform is STILL out of service. It has been out for over a month now, and NYCT is in clear violation of Federal ADA regulations.
BTW: Grand Central station is the closest ADA accessible station for tommorrow's "Pubic Hair-ing" at the Roosevelt Hotel-Madison Ave and East 45th st.
Agreed. This is not good.
A letter of complaint to MTA and your local elected officials would be in order.
Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex.
No, they are not "just as complex." And they are subjected to nothing even remotely close to the abuse and pounding that transit elevators get. And that's not even counting deliberate vandalism.
It may be true that subway escalators take more of a beating that their counterparts in stores and malls and other places. As I noted in another posting, that could account for a higher breakdown rate among subway escalators. But it does not account for the absurdly long periods needed to make repairs.
"But it does not account for the absurdly long periods needed to make repairs. "
Granted. That is in part a function of bureaucratic inefficiency and also reflects the need for better contractor oversight.
If they kept the escalators running well, they'd be pressured to put more in. There are a lot a elderly and disabled people who are limited to buses because of the stairs. Instead, we don't ask for them because of the poor record. Still, if they had to keep them operating, they would. I know a few that are almost never down, like the pair going up to Grand Central from the Lex. Come to think of it, the ones to the Pan Am building seem to get repaired quickly too and they take a real pounding.
Paris retrofitted hundreds of stations with escalators. WMATA has them everywhere, both up and down. Yes, they have problems. Often only two of three work. But they have been subjected to 25 years of rain. I just can't believe that NYC Transit couldn't keep escalators running if they really wanted to. It would cost money, but it is a worthy investment, priceless to those the cannot travel without it.
The elderly and disabled deserve better access to NYC's transit system. I agree with you.
Well....nobody "deserves" anything. Best we can do is to create a society (out of chaos!) which can not only offer the pathways to acquiring the basic necessities of life but will also enable our "better nature" to tend to those facets of existence that make life enjoyable for the population.
Such as designing our infrastructures with some thought given to our older citizens. Which we all are or will be. But to me, that's it.
That's the only honest way to go about it. Not so we can feel noble.
Not because we "have to". Or because we "deserve it". We do it because we want it done for us.
Yeah those were supposed to be done last Fall I believe. It's a real PITA having to shlep to Lexington ave or through Bloomingdale's just to get to the N/R/W from 3rd avenue.
Perhaps if they hired prison gangs the work would get done quicker.:-0
It appears that the LIRR has taken a page from late 19th/early 20th century railroad technology by running unmotorized trailer cars in their consists.
On the 8:30 Penn Station train out of Far Rock this morning, an announcement was made before Jamaica that the rear three cars were not taking power from the third rail and that as a result, the train would be operating at a lower speed than usual to Penn Station.
Gee, I thought unmotorized trailers went out with Kaiser Wilhelm and the Model T Ford.
Welcome to the 21st century, MTA-style.
Would you rather they had detached the three cars and squeezed everybody into the remaining cars?
Would you rather they had detached the three cars and squeezed everybody into the remaining cars?
Can I indulge in a little fantasy?
What I'd really want is for the LIRR to make enormous reductions in its cost structure through massive downsizing of its managerial ranks and the replacement of its overpaid union employees with nonunion workers earning market-level (translation: far lower) wages, thereby allowing the LIRR to offer better service on modern equipment at lower fares while requiring lower or no taxpayer subsidies.
What are the chances of this actually happening? I suspect we'll sooner see the Sun rise in the west.
I agree. I think we'll see a station at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue before we see what you proposed.
;)
Maybe, but while you're dreaming about the "big things" lots of little good things that can happen, and sometimes do happen, escape your notice...
BTW, the union situation, good, bad or ugly, is hardly all LIRR's fault, and if they got rid of the unions, you've not demonstrated that the benefits youi're talking about would happen to the degree you claim..
Why should that be an option? I would rather experience one LIRR ride without some mechanical problem cropping up. Instead, I get a parade of maladies, from door lights that don't activate, to lights and heat/AC not working to power outages.
For the money I pay per month ($135, and going up soon) I'd like to have a decent ride.
Before I moved to Philly, I rode the LIRR on a regular basis. So did other people in Bayside that I knew.
You're kvetching (that's OK). You're entitled to a decent ride, but your post obviously exaggerates your maladies. You're making a mountain out of your own little molehill. What's more, most LIRR riders, according to Straphanger polls, LIRR and commuter council results, were reasonably happy with LIRR's service.
Not that the things you mention don't happen. But let's face it - as LIRR improves, you just find something else to moan about. :0)
He shoudl have ridden the LIRR in the 1960's.
In the winter, no heat at all in trains. Sometimes there'd even be a snow drift down the aisle of cars because some cluck left the end doors open in Speonk yard....
In the summer, no air conditioning in the air conditoned cars. There were only about 250 air conditioned cars in the whole fleet of about 1,250 cars total.
No lights in many diesel hauled cars in the winter because the batteries froze and the generator belt (a strap over the axle under the car) broke.
Toilets that hadn't been cleaned since the world war (the FIRST one...)
Broken windows. Oh, and windows stuck OPEN in the winter (yes, the windows DID open in those days).
No PA systems to announce stops, even if it was the wrong one. Lucky if the conductor came through and yelled out the next stop and could be heard above the chattering teeth in winter.
Frozen switches. Locomotives running out of fuel.
Yep, I have experienced it all. I lived to tell about it. But it was NOT an everyday occurence.
"In the winter, no heat at all in trains. Sometimes there'd even be a snow drift down the aisle of cars because some cluck left the end doors open in Speonk yard...."
They should have charged extra for the privilege of letting your kids have snowball fights on the train.
"In the summer, no air conditioning in the air conditoned cars. There were only about 250 air conditioned cars in the whole fleet of about 1,250 cars total."
Real men did not ride those A/C cars! Anybody on them must have been a real wimp.
"No lights in many diesel hauled cars in the winter because the batteries froze and the generator belt (a strap over the axle under the car) broke. "
Pshaw! Read by the light of your cigarette (an unfiltered Camel).
"Broken windows. Oh, and windows stuck OPEN in the winter (yes, the windows DID open in those days)."
Whassamater? You don't like the ventilation system? Picky, picky...
"Frozen switches. Locomotives running out of fuel."
Did the locomotive engineer organize the passengers to get out and push? It's great exercise. Make a real man out of ya (and you'll quit bitching about no a/c in the car).
Yes, the good old days...
Happy Subtalk :0)
Hehehehe....how true, especially the one about "real men didn't ride the a/c cars". I always loved getting a train of P54's behind one of the RS-3's. Open a few windows, sit in the first car, and enjoy the Alco sounds (smells, etc. too!!) And go deaf from those Nathan M-3 horns.
I remember one rather innovative conductor, one trip on the 3:56 out of Hunterspoint to Patchogue, the first car had no lights. He went up and had the engineer turn on the rear headlight on the RS-3. PLENTY of light thereafter.....
Then there was a time on that train we were hauling ass down the Central Branch, and there's a slight rise up and over the Southern State Parkway as well as a bend. Hit the rise, then the drop, and bend, and the engineer dumped the air!! Seven car train in the summer, all the windows opened, it looked like a chicken coop with all the hens' heads suddenly stuck out to see what happened. A lumber yard was on fire, the FD had their hoses across the tracks -- OVER the rails -- and the train ground to a stop after all seven cars sliced the hoses (damn P54 brakes were never worth a shit...made more vibration than stop). Conductor stuck his head of out the front vestibule and yelled to the engineer "Let's get the hell out of here before the FD sends us a bill!" Off we went.
I'll always remember MY days of commuting on the LIRR in the 1960's. Sure there were days nothing went right, but believe me, the LIRR was always good for a laugh. They always got us where we were going.
Sounds like you had a real adventure there...
I'll always remember MY days of commuting on the LIRR in the 1960's. Sure there were days nothing went right, but believe me, the LIRR was always good for a laugh. They always got us where we were going.
Well the LIRR is good for a few laughs today, except they are laughs in the sense that one laughs at dead baby* or Space Shuttle** jokes. Not quite the same humor as in the 1960's.
* = What's the difference between a truckload of dead babies and a truckload of bowling balls? You can't unload a truckload of bowling balls with a pitch fork.
** = What does NASA stand for? Need Another Seven Astronauts.
Locomotives running out of fuel.
I hadn't heard that about the LIRR, but I have heard a similar story of such an occurrence on the Jersey Central. Towards the end, just before Conrail, a JC commuter train ran out of fuel one afternoon. A local fuel dealer brought enough fuel to the train for it to complete its run; the passengers chipped in to pay the bill, since the fuel dealer would not bill the JC or even accept a check from the Jersey Central for fear it would bounce. (This story courtesy one of the passengers on that train, Don Cariss, now treasurer of the North Raleigh Model RR Club, Raleigh, North Carolina.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The time I was on the LIRR and the loco ran out of fuel, it was an RS-3 heading into Jamaica, just west of B Tower. As it was the morning rush hour and no CTC in those days, the following Ronkonkoma train (with my next door neighbor as engineer -- he told me what REALLY happened, our crew just said "engine failure") pushed us to Hicksville where another loco met us after rushing out from Jamaica.
If things are that bad on the LIRR, try driving to work. Then you'll have a nice warm car, nobody to stink and sit next to you, no loss of third rail power.....
Oh, could you do it for $135 or less?
well the power outages are LIPA's fault, as LIRR gets its power through LIPA lines (in the Nassau-Suffolk region). I lost power for 90 minutes tonight.
I use to love the cattle line out to Deer Park esp. in the winter. boy the fun we use to have waiting at Republic for the west bound to pass to clear the single track that was running an hour late. And yes no lights, heat and it was every man for him self if you did not find a bar car to kill the time. this was back in the early 1970's. but hay it was still and adventure
john
One thing I like about the LIRR is bad brakes. Many times on the Mus and C3s the dynamics are out. Nothing like the smell of burning brake and squeels that will make your head pop.
unmotorized trailers
Isn't that redundant?
unmotorized trailers
Isn't that redundant?
Yes, and the whole thread is about motorized trailers.
But who wants to nitpick? :)
Yep, just like his constant bitching about LIRR. They aren't perfect, but things could be one helluva lot worse.
Not really. The MP-54s came in motor (with cab), trailer (without cab), motor trailer (motors, etc, no cab), and trailer cabs (cab, no motors). Trailer doesn't inherently mean no motors, and doesn't always mean just a dead car - many European EMUs split the traction gear between cars for better weight distribution, so you get stuff like a cab, motor, transformer, pantograph, unpowered, motor, cab arrangement.
I would call a car that has motors but no control position
a "blind motor". A sled with a control stand is a "control trailer"
Is car G a control trailer?
Yes
Give them credit that they made an announcement as to the train's problem.
Give them credit that they didn't drop the rear three cars and make everyone pack into what was left.
Give them credit they didn't just cancel the train and send it to be fixed right away.
In lieu of the LIRR, and since your origin is on the Far Rock Branch, why not take the A train from Mott Ave. instead? Even if you need to take the N31/32 to get there, it still will cost only $1.50 or less with a Metrocard, and the A service is more frequent than LIRR Far Rock trains. And I'm sure the A train never has stuck doors, propulsion problems, HVAC problems, and overcrowding. So, as The Duke said, "Take the A Train."
when there is a will there is a way. there was a time when one of the m1 units died at nostrand av. they actually coupled our train to the back of the disabled train and ran the whole train into flatbush ave terminal. the only problem was that my part of the train was sill in the tunnel and we had to walk forward to exit the train. this must have been oh i guess 1983, 1984. hay it works and your right they could have tied up the whole line making everyone late but instead they found an alternitive
I've done that a few times but I don't like the walk from the LIRR Far Rock terminal to the A train Mott Ave terminal. Its only three blocks or so but its a really seedy area of Far Rockaway and it can be a frightening walk even in the morning.
Walking along Mott Ave isn't too bad during the day. It is a major shopping area. But once you walk down Redfern Ave then walk fast, sure and hope no one follows.
Correct - that area is really run down these days, and not safe. But my point was, why not just take the N31/32 right to the Mott Ave. A train stop (free Metrocard transfer) and have a much cheaper and (for you) obviously much better trip than using an LIRR Far Rock branch train.
When my house catches on fire I don't have to run out and give the firefighters a token so that they will fight the fire. Why should I pay for the transportation that is a necessity of a functioning city?
"If you use it you should pay for it," is not a good argument. If only users should pay for a city service, then I should not have to pay for the school system since I have no kids going to school. Also, corporations reap a large benefit (employees get to work) from the existence of the suways and buses, but don't pay anything.
The MTA is trying to eliminate the token booth clerks by implementing the Metrocard machines. Why not get rid of the booths AND the machines and use the ex-clerks as station monitors to aid riders.
Nothing is for free. Everything is paid for by someone sometime in some way.
If government provides an everyday necessity, whether food, shelter or transportation, the money for its provision is going to have to come from someplace. To avoid the necessity to pay a fare of $1.50 (or less, with discounts) you would have to layer an additional $2.3+ BILLION dollars annually of new taxes to make up for the lost fares.
Who should pay for this? I know, "someone else."
The fire department analogy is an old one, but bogus. Fire is a catastophic, involuntary event. All taxpayers have agreed to provide the service for their mutual safety and that of their fellows. But after the fire is out, the consequences are on you, not the City. I pay $1,000+ a year for fire insurance, otherwise I get "free" fire service, and a multi-thousand dollar bill for reconstruction.
There are arguments in favor of free transit. Especially on buses in small, crowded cities, since they lose so much money anyway, and the demand is inelastic (lower cost does not equal more ridership). Sort of like public libraries.
In fact, a minimal level of food and housing (homeless shelters and soup kitchens) is also free. Demand is also inelastic -- you don't really want more than the minimum.
But with subways, like schools, you want better quality, and you don't want to separate the "soup kitchen" riders from the "restaurant" riders. So you split the responsibility between taxpayers and fee payers.
I think both Seattle and Denver (might be wrong on that last one) have ride free zones on bus routes in their CBDs. I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route. It would seem that you're halving the amount of revinue you can bring in that way, the person will pay to come in, but will sneak on at a free area and just ride home that way.
Portland, Oregon also has that, and both Portland and Seattle call it the "Fareless Square."
> I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a
> the free zone
The same way that any other transit agency (like NJ Transit) makes sure you pay for enough zones. The bus drivers seem to just know.
Two ways that it works
1. The Honor system (yes, I'm not joking)
2. Key places/times where they check who paid, often when crossing zones, especially if patterns of cheating emerge.
>>> I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route <<<
The same way they check on multi-zone fares. When someone enters in the free zone who will go beyond the zone he pays his fare and gets a "check" ticket from the driver. At the last stop in the free zone, the driver announces the end of the free zone and collects the tickets from his passengers. Any who do not have tickets are directed to the fare box or the door.
Tom
In Amsterdam, where they have the Honor system when boarding, at Waterloopen (where one enters the central city zone) all riders are checked. I did see lots of people getting off there rather quickly however, but the flea market there is very popular....
>>> In Amsterdam, where they have the Honor system when boarding, at Waterloopen (where one enters the central city zone) all riders are checked. <<<
What do you mean by the honor system? When I was last in Amsterdam many years ago they were using a POP system similar to the one now in use in Los Angeles, which is a far cry from an honor system.
Tom
I meant that at the time, you boarded and punched your own ticket then sat down. No one checked to make sure you did except at certain points where everyone was checked. I am no expert on Amsterdam here - I am just sharing my experience.
>>> I meant that at the time, you boarded and punched your own ticket then sat down <<<
What is the purpose of punching your ticket, and how is it done? Surely they do not provide ticket punchers for you? If the tickets are time sensitive, I can see having a time stamp validation at the station, but the traditional reason for punching a ticket is to indicate a conductor has seen it and it has been used. It is also extremely strange that they had certain fixed points where tickets were checked. Since those points could be avoided it would be an honor system. The POP system depends on random checks without passengers knowing in advance where they will be.
Tom
Yes, you can have a "passenger punching their own ticket" system. This system operates on many European transit systems. Buses, trams and station entrances have "validator" machines. You buy a ticket before boarding (from small mom-and-pop stores, from ticket booths or from ticket vending machines) - often multiride tickets giving a discount - then you stick them into the validator, which stamps the date and time on them. Transfer privileges have a time limit (say 2 hours). If it's a multiride ticket it has space for stamps for the number of rides you've bought. Then roving inspectors check tickets to make sure you've stamped them less than 2 hours ago. In Amsterdam you also have the option of paying a cash fare to the driver and receiving a ticket, but you pay a lot more that way.
My bus from the station to my office in Loughborough (UK) has a variant on this system. I buy a ten-journey ticket from the driver, giving me a 33% discount. He gives me a blank ticket (with a magnetic strip) which I insert into the validator, which actually prints the ticket. For the other nine rides I just stick it into the validator on boarding; it makes a noise which tells the driver I used a valid ticket (or a different noise if I didn't).
The following happened when I was on an Amsterdam tram once. Tram stops and various people get on, including a couple (man and woman). Doors close so that no-one else can get off. Couple produce ID showing that they are plain clothes ticket inspectors. They go round the tram checking tickets, fining on the spot those who haven't got a valid stamp on their ticket. Of course the plain clothes were necessary. If the inspectors were in uniform, the fare evaders would have seen them boarding and would have had time to jump off the tram before the doors closed.
The following happened when I was on an Amsterdam tram once.
Compare what happened when I was on an Athens tram. Ticket inspector (uniformed) gets on. The tram was packed, with no room to move. Ticket inspector gives up and gets off.
>>> Ticket inspector (uniformed) gets on. The tram was packed, with no room to move. Ticket inspector gives up and gets off. <<<
I used to ride for free on the narrow trams in Heidelberg from time to time when it was too crowded for the conductor to get through the car to collect fares.
Tom
"I used to ride for free on the narrow trams in Heidelberg from time to time when it was too crowded for the conductor to get through the car to collect fares"
They have conductors collecting fares on the Sheffield (UK) "supertram" system, having abandoned a vending-machine-only system because of vandalism/failure of the ticket machines. But I don't know if the trams ever get crowded enough in rush hours to prevent the conductor getting around to collect the fares.
I think in Seattle, you pay as you get off on outbound buses.
That's exactly how it works. If you get on an "inbound" bus you pay as you board. If you get off an "outbound" bus you pay as you exit. If you get on or off in the free fare zone, you don't pay at all. I don't remember what happens for a route that goes into, through, and then out of the free fare zone.
I do remember that some buses have multiple zones in the same direction. In that case, it seemed that you were trusted to pay the correct amount for how far you were going.
[I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route.]
The Pittsburgh approach is rather simple: Pay as you EXIT the bus on trips from Downtown.
If someone is a taxpayer and a rider they have to pay twice.
No, they pay once in two installments. One ride DOES NOT cost $1.50, it's much more. If a subway ride actually costs $x.xx, you pay $x-1.50 in taxes for that ride, then your $1.50 when you enter the system.
How much of that do businesses pay. They benefit from a service that gets their employees to work
Businesses can't pay taxes because people own wealth, not pieces of paper. Not many people understand that all wealth ultimately ends up in the hands of a person, whether it goes thru the gov't first, from buying something, or anything else.
The people who run the business (stock holders, owners, whatever) do have money and they pay taxes that get their employees and themsleves to work.
What??? Then what is Bush talking about when he says that dividends should not be taxed because that money has already been taxed when the corporation pays tax on its profit?
By the way corporations are considered legal persons
I'm not familiar with law regarding corporations, so you must enlighten me. If that is the case, what are the social security numbers of GM and Proctor & Gamble? If GM and P&G are legal persons, then don't they have to file a 1040? A SSN is required to fill one out. If GM doesn't pay their taxes, who exactly gets arrested?
I'm not familiar with law regarding corporations, so you must enlighten me. If that is the case, what are the social security numbers of GM and Proctor & Gamble? If GM and P&G are legal persons, then don't they have to file a 1040? A SSN is required to fill one out. If GM doesn't pay their taxes, who exactly gets arrested?
Corporations have Federal Employer Identification Numbers instead of Social Security Numbers. And yes, they usually are required to file federal (and state) corporate income tax returns.
Corporations can and most do have taxpayers ID's they are just like SSN's. And they must due 1120's not 1040's
They also pay a special tax in the MTA region for the MTA's funding.
But the taxes that a corporation pays has to come from real people. Employees create the wealth, so the money comes from them. The law may recognize that company as a person, but realistially corporations aren't tangible things.
Whatever the case, I don't think there shouldn't be 100% subsidy, but there shouldn't be 100% user fee either. The system you all have now works, presumably. In Atlanta, MARTA raises funds partly (about 60%of total budget) from a 1% sales tax in the three jursdictions it runs in (Fulton and Dekalb Couties, and City of Atlanta). It is also required by law to raise 30% (or 35%, I can't remember) of operating revemue from fareboxes. The remaining 10% comes from the Feds. The State of Georgia contributes NOT ONE CENT to MARTA. That needs to change. Anyway, I think it was a good idea to make the riders pay for the certain %, it forces MARTA is encourage more ridership.
Rob,
I do agree with you that a certain % needs to come from the farebox. If for no other reason than if you don't pay anything for a service, you don't value it, nor recognize it cost money to run and you (the citizen and/or taxpayer) has have a stake in how it is run. If the public didn't pay anything for transit, people might start expecting 5 minute headways from 6AM to Midnight.
But on the subject of corporations paying taxes, I do agree in theory that corporations do not pay taxes, people do. Yes, the corporate taxes (if a corporation hasn't found a way to avoid them altogther) are passed along in the price of the goods and services. But if corporate taxes were eliminated, I truly doubt the prices would drop to refect this. You would hear about how the taxes were a very small part fo the price.
Bush doesn't even get it. A corperation is made up of people. Without people, a corporation can't exist. The profits generated by the "company" is really generated by the employees that work there. Let's say you own your own store. You gross $50,000, and your payroll is $40,000. You make a $10,000 profit. Your profit (imcome) gets taxed 10% and now you have $9000. Now, let's say you had an investor that gave you 50% of the money you needed to start your business. You owe your investor $4500. S/He gets their money and now they are taxed 10% of that since that is their income. That means $1450 in taxes were taken out in total, so 14.5% taxes that were taken out even though it's a 10% tax rate. That's where the concept of double taxation comes in. Now take that example and it's the same way with a billion dollar corporation with thousands of shareholders.
Remember this: there is no such thing as money that doesn't belong to a human being, it's impossible to have it any other way. Money is worthless if no one owns it.
Because Bush doesn't want the rich to pay taxes!
Maybe we should keep the fare as it is and do like it was when I was a kid living on Beach 100th Street in Rockaway Beach: Pay another fare when you leave.
I guess I'm just kidding here....
That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else.
"That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else."
Both PATCO and Washington Metrorail check your fare payment on exit. If you don't have enough money on your card, the WMATA faregate won't open to allow you to exit the station. Ditto for PATCO, if you, for example, bought a Philly-Camden fare card but tried to use it to exit at Haddonfield.
"That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else."
Both PATCO and Washington Metrorail check your fare payment on exit. If you don't have enough money on your card, the WMATA faregate won't open to allow you to exit the station. Ditto for PATCO, if you, for example, bought a Philly-Camden fare card but tried to use it to exit at Haddonfield.
Also, I believe the Braintree branch of MBTA Red Line charges a double fare to go there from downtown Boston.
MBTA Red Line charges a double fare because you only pay on the way out (or the way in, I can't remember which). You are still charged the same as you would be otherwise.
WMATA and PATCO don't check your fare on exit exactly, they do a distance based fare so they need to see where you started out and then deduct the proper fare. Another system that does this is London with their zones. You need to validate your card upon entry and then put it through the machine again when you exit.
"MBTA Red Line charges a double fare because you only pay on the way out (or the way in, I can't remember which). You are still charged the same as you would be otherwise. "
Not true. Boston to Braintree costs you a double fare. Boston to Ashmont does not. And the turnstiles in Boston charge you a normal fare (therefore, you have to pay again when you reach Braintree).
I was just there. You pay in all stops with a $1 token. If you get off at Braintree (my hotel was in Braintree), you pay another $1 token to exit. Now if you get on in Braintree, you put in 2 tokens.
The London system doesn't validate your ticket - it is valid as soon as you buy it. If you buy a ticket ahead of time, you have to get it from the staffed booth and ask for it to be dated tomorrow (or whatever). The gate system checks on entering and on leaving that you have a valid ticket. The exit gates don't deduct value from your ticket (as the BART ones do - and I guess WMATA, though I've never ridden the Washington system). The London system has the following options at its exit gates:
You have a valid ticket that won't take you any further (a single-ride ticket) - the gate opens and swallows your ticket.
You do not have a valid ticket for the journey just made. The gate doesn't open and it gives you your ticket back. You then have to go to the staffed gate, show your ticket and pay a supplementary fare to get out (like Charlie on the MTA!).
You have a valid ticket and it is valid for more journeys (e.g. an unlimited ticket, a commuter season ticket, or a National Rail ticket that includes an Underground ride). The gate opens and gives you your ticket back.
London Underground doesn't have multijourney tickets (e.g. ten rides) or cash-value ones (e.g. 20 pounds' worth of travel) so a subtraction facility at the exit gate isn't needed.
That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else.
Let me tell you the story
Of a man named Charlie
On a tragic and fateful day
He put ten cents in his pocket
Kissed his wife and family
Went to ride on the MTA
Charlie handed in his dime
At the Kendall Square Station
And he changed for Jamaica Plain
When he got there
The conductor said
One more nickel
Charlie couldn't get off of that train
Did he ever return...
I was wondering when someone was going to mention Charlie's plight beneath Boston! I was going to if you hadn't.
Thanks on behalf of Charlie,
Mark
If it ever gets to where you have to pay to exit here in NYC, we might have our own Charlie. And I doubt if it will be so funny.
Sung by the Kingston Trio.
It was a political campaign song, by the way, for one George O'Brien.
Here's the rest of the story, thanks to a good guy at MIT!
I always wondered why his wife kept giving him a sandwich instead of a nickle!
Elias
I've mentioned this before but it's probably worth repeating. I encountered the weirdest pay-on-exit system in Japan on a local bus. You board at the back door and collect a ticket from a machine, which has printed on it the number of the stop at which you boarded. Above the driver's head is en electronic sign, constantly updated, showing the fare from each numbered stop to wherever the bus is now. When you are about to alight, you look at the sign to see how much you now have to pay for the journey you've made. You leave by the front door, and as you get off you give your ticket to the driver to prove where you got on, and put the required amount of money for the trip you've just made into the farebox.
I can't remember whether there was any turnstile arrangement either at the rear (to stop you getting on without taking a ticket) or at the front (to stop you leaving until the driver has checked that you've paid the right amount).
There's a riding experience that could have ONLY been developed by the NYC Hack Bureau, I mean the Tax a Limousine Commission (our motto, "we put the TLC into EVERY cab driver's heart") of today. My dad was ITOA Independent Taxi Owner's Association) or "war veterans who got their OWN medallion" ...
Who could put a group experience like "everybody into the bath" in Japan into sharing a taxi with 26 other people? In a bizarre sense that only Nissei could appreciate, there you are. Amusing! Inefficient as all hell for the great American "wallet or purse fumbler" looking for the right change. But then again, I *LOVE* Nihon! Where else would you walk into a shoppe and have ten people in your face bowing until they're about to kiss their shoes, keeping you from getting past them? And you HAVE to honor them by returning the gratitude.
Japan's a most interesting and curious place. That merely reflects it to me. Guess it's because of what I do for a living, having to be aware of the consciousness and customs of many lands (what we sell does better OUTSIDE of America than within) but I actually LIKE that custom, rather than the "push push push" of being an Uh-merican. :)
>>> I encountered the weirdest pay-on-exit system in Japan on a local bus. <<<
Although weird to you, it certainly was a logical distance based system. I wonder if the tickets had unique numbers for every stop, or whether the number represented a zone, and the same number would be printed on tickets at several stops. Then when the bus crossed a zone boundary the B/O could update the location which would change both the ticket printing machine and the electronic fare sign.
Tom
Whatever they do in Japan, they must have better machines (and employees than over here). I regularly ride the 27/28 bus in Leicester and have only once seen the electronic display tell me I'm on a bus bound for Pendlebury Drive. It's quite interesting seeing where the buses I'm not on go though. Oh and sometimes I get really bizarre tickets reading things like 8 - 1 return (when I'm actually paying 5 - 1). Hopefully the Japanese don't have a bus company like ARRIVA Fox County. #lt/rant#gt
IIRC, and maybe it's changed, in Seattle you pay on entry on buses into the central business district, and pay on exit on the way out. The core business district is free (no need to pay at all) and if you go into, through, and out of the district you pay twice.
On the red line in Boston, you pay an extra today if you exit in Braintree (and maybe one other stop).
Actually, given the high farebox recovery ratio on the subway, a short trip on a moderately crowded line costs well under $1.50 to provide.
(But I agree with your overall point.)
Logic would dictate that nothing is free so it should be apparent that I was talking about a general tax. As the system exists now the fare is a user tax. Either way its a tax.
Can you provide a link for the $2.3 figure?
I pay taxes, so I would pay. You pay taxes, so you would pay. Corporations pay taxes, so they would pay. Everybody would pay for this essential service without which the city would cease to function.
We are already paying for street and road repair. Thats not a catastrophic, involuntary event. Do I have to give the pothole crew a token? No I don't. "Someone else" does. Me, you, corporations, limited liability partnerships, everyone.
We are already paying for street and road repair. Thats not a catastrophic, involuntary event. Do I have to give the pothole crew a token? No I don't. "Someone else" does. Me, you, corporations, limited liability partnerships, everyone.
You pay tolls, gasoline taxes, and parking fines. Those are user taxes transit riders do not pay.
Absolutely right.
Does the Lex really need more people riding? The B41? The #7?
Or would these still have a fare? No free lunch - if "soneone else" pays, then that someone else will move away (anyone remember the 70s?).
The fare also acts as a barrier (tolls too). To reduce conjestion, and also to separate the transit from the street. That's why fare beaters are more likely to commit other crimes (rememeber the 1980s?).
Why not make everything free. This way no one would have to work.
Try the M15, see how free rides would do there. Free subways and buses, terrible idea, topic is correct. With unlimited cards, *TECHNICALLY* its free, you have unlimited fares for whatever card you buy.
Tolls should be free the same as the fare. The George Washington Bridge has been paid for 10 times over. Eliminate the gas tax too. The gas tax is just another tax disguised as a "user fee." As for fines, I would advise not to park illegally.
Yes, they lied when they said the toll would be eliminated when the bonds were paid off. The truth is that you need to still maintain it and you also use the toll as a barrier to control congestion (and pollution too). Should there be more traffic on the Cross-Bronx? Ever walk by overhead and take a deep breath?
A better case might be a lower fare in off-hours or weekends, to encourage ridership when capacity goes begging. Still, lost money has to come from sonewhere, and "from soneone else" is not good enough.
>>> The truth is that you need to still maintain it <<<
And that maintenance is not cheap. On the Golden Gate Bridge they just raised the toll and put out a "Donation Box" for pedestrians (who do not pay any toll) to try to raise funds.
Tom
"On the Golden Gate Bridge they just raised the toll and put out a "Donation Box" for pedestrians (who do not pay any toll) to try to raise funds. "
Maybe they could hold a bake sale...:0)
["Yes, they lied when they said the toll would be eliminated when the bonds were paid off."]
No, they didn't lie. Robert Moses lied. The intention was the tolls would eventually be eliminated, like they did with the Southern State toll in Valley Stream, however RM, who was the king of putting loopholes into legislation wrote the wording on the bonds to keep his TBTA self perpetuating. I do have to say that having to pay $7 ($6 with Metrocard EZ Pass) to drive from one borough to another is totally insane!!
What actually happened was an example of the old rule that no government ever gives up a revenue source.
On toll facilites constructed by bond issues, the toll remains after the bond issue expires due to either an new bond is issued for improvements to the toll facility or a new "condsolidated transportation bond issue" is created.
Either way, the toll never goes away even after 40 years or more.
"What actually happened was an example of the old rule that no government ever gives up a revenue source."
Counterexamples: Connecticut Turnpike and Merritt Parkway; Mass Pike west of Springfield.
I believe also the Tacoma Narrows, Lake Washington, and Hood Canal Bridges in WA.
And all of the Long Island and Westchester parkway tolls.
And I-95 North of Baltimore to the Delaware Line, The Fort McHenry Tunnel, The Chesapeake Bay Bridge, The Hatem Bridge on US 40, The Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, the list goes on and on and on and on.
...the Jamestown and Mount Hope Bridges in Rhode Island (which may soon be reinstated)...
No, those tolls are all still in place. I was listing tolls that have been removed.
And SOME governments sell off revenue sources, also known as a "one shot" ... and having done so, then have to raise that revenue somewhere else.
Geez, how do you expect ANYTHING to be paid for? By the State? Federally? Why should I pay for a bridge/road/subway I don't use?
User fees are the fairest way to pay for something. You use it, you pay for it.
Why should I pay for a school system that I have no kids in?
No arguement from me, I don't have any kids, either. The arguement is that educating kids will benefit you and me eventually, we will be their boss one day, so we need them to be smart in order for us to get paid. It's a valid arguement. The same goes with transit, it beneifts everyone. User fees are the fairest, but it may not be the smartest. Post 443700 sums it up nicely, we need to strike a balance between 100% subsidy and 100% user fee. I personally think the system we have now is good, but I'd rather see a slight shift in favor of the user fees, but the balance still needs to be there.
The whole point of the post that stared this thread was that 100% subsidy was the way to go. We need no balance.
I can agree with that
Comrade Piggo
I think there are more essential services that should be free, all forms of transportation costs something directly to whomever uses it, so making transit free shouldn't be a higher priority than other services.
Why not subsidize everything 100%? Food is an essential service, more essential than transit. So let's nationalize all food stores and food production facilities and give everyone an equal ration of food. Children, the elderly, pregnant women, people with disabilities and people who are sick would get an additional ration.
Everybody would get a nice homogenous apartment and they would be able to ride to work or school (free through doctorate level!) on nice free buses or subways. America would be just like the wonderful People's Democratic Republic of Korea.
The problem with this whole thing is that nobody has an incentive to do anything. I guess it would have to be a crime not to work, otherwise nobody would bother, and I can't imagine anybody would bother to better themselves and to get a harder job that is more rewarding for society, or to go through years of education.
The first thing one learns in introductory economics is that incentives matter.
Corporations are already paying for transit through user fees. They have to pay their employees' salaries don't they?
User fees are the most efficient way of paying for things. The reason you do not pay directly for things like road repair or firefighting services is because they are public goods: non-excludable and non-rival in consumption.
Transit ISN'T non-excludable, it is obviously practical to bar entry to a transit vehicle for failure to pay a fee. Transit ISN'T non-rival, since you can always take a bus instead of the subway or vice-versa, drive, bicycle or walk.
>>> The reason you do not pay directly for things like road repair or firefighting services is because they are public goods: non-excludable and non-rival in consumption. <<<
What does "non-excludable and non-rival in consumption" mean? Users sometimes do pay for those thing as users. Street lighting, road repairs and fire protection (rather than firefighting) are sometimes subject to special assessments on property owners in the immediate area as the beneficiaries of those services.
Tom
An example is given in the following paragraph.
The example that you gave seems like a property tax, not a user fee. In any case, those services (street lighting, road repairs) by someone who does not own property in that area and is just passing through.
A street light is a great example of a public good. You can't block someone from getting illumination from a street light if he or she didn't pay for it while allowing those who paid their light bill to use it.
"What does "non-excludable and non-rival in consumption" mean?"
More precisely:
- Non-excludable means that if the good is provided to anyone, others who haven't paid for it can't be prevented from using it.
- Non-rivalrous means that if I use a good, it doesn't cause there to be less available for others.
A sidewalk is non-excludable but not non-rivalrous.
A streetlight is both.
Software is non-rivalrous but (at least when Microsoft is involved) not non-excludable.
Manufactured goods are neither.
The Triborough bridge has probably been paid for 60 times over for all I care. The bad thing about it, is they do a terrible job in maintaining roadways ob the bridges.
#3 West End Jeff
Can you provide a link for the $2.3 figure?
Sure
thanks
The side problem that would be created by making the system free is that, under the ruling that allowed the MTA to limit the subways use by panhandlers, fundraisers, toy/battery/junky stuff salespeople and your garden variety homless person, the court ruled that because of the fare, the system could not be consiered a "public place" in the same way a sidewalk is a public place. Take away the fare and you take away the rationale for the court ruling and the subway gets more annoying to your average rider pretty fast.
Then there's the rule of subsidy -- you subsidize something, you get more of it. People right now who might walk from Point A to Point B or go to a business in their own neighborhood or working area would be more likely to jump on the train and go further away if there's no direct cost. And while increasing subway ridership might not be such a bad idea, increasing subway ridership on the Lex or the E and F trains in Queens during rush hour isn't most people's idea of a good thing. The MTA would then have to add trains, which they don't have right now (unless they decide to rebondo the remaining Rebirds for another decade or so). That would leave them with the option of either boosting the order of R-160 cars and adding a new R-161 order for the IRT, which would be a huge extra cost going out with el zippo incoming coming in from the system to pay for it. They would also need addition T/Os, C/Rs maintenance staff, etc., to support the larger fleet, again with no direct finanical support coming in.
To fund that, the state would have to jack their own taxes up and definitely restore the commuter tax (court challenge likely here), while at the same time going to the federal government (which is being asked to cancel long distance Amtrak service because it's a big money pit) and requestion a few billion extra to support a free NYC subway system. The feds will give the city a few billion to fix up the transportation system around the WTC, but no way in hell are they going to finance a $3 billion free mass transit subsidy annually in perpetuity, with the prospects for that subsidy ballooning as more people take advantage of the "something for nothing" system and stress the infrastructure.
Other than all that, of couse, it's a wonderful idea...
In reality, free transit can lead to problems. One city, I don't remember which one, tried it and the buses turned into rolling homeless shelters. I'm all for addressing homelessness, but there are better solutions to that problems than driving homeless people around town all night. Build and fund real shelters, ones that don't use costly diesel fuel.
In fact, transit is "mostly free," in that riders don't pay nearly as much as it really costs to operate transit systems in most cases. I think fares should be kept reasonable to make transit available to those who need it most. Philadelphia's $2.00 base fare is too high, though you can ride for less by using tokens or passes. I think programs like Transit Check, under which employers help employees pay for transit are a good idea, too, since employers benefit just as much from transit. I don't know how available that kind of thing is to people who work minimum wage service jobs, though.
Mark
Homeless people, or anyone else that abuses the system would be a police problem.
>>> Homeless people, or anyone else that abuses the system would be a police problem. <<<
"Would be a police problem." What exactly does that mean? Police are to be given descretion to remove anyone they want from subways? Police enforce laws. If one can enter and exit the subway system without cost, what would prevent a homeless person from riding around, and if asked to leave by a police officer, leaving for a few minutes to catch a bus to another station and entering again. How would you define abuse of the system? How about railfans on disability riding around the system for twelve hours each day? What about juveniles after school riding around for kicks. Without any entry fare, the subways would become a zoo.
Tom
Mike Quill (rest his soul) proposed this exact thing in the late 60s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Red Mike! I wouldn't have him make transit policy - after all, even the communist countries charged a transit fare. New York's experiments in Socialiam in the late-60s/early 70s (ie Lindsey) just ended up in bankrupcy.
you seem to forget about the SIR it seems to work fine, free most of the way
No - you collect fares where it is most efficient and for the SIRT is is at St. George. It isn't worth having the conductor wald through the cars anymore, and adding fare controls and fences at stations is probably too much spending for too little return.
Look in the Staten Island Advance archives (I think they're available at www.silive.com -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Every few months there are articles about people complaining about a decline in the quality of life on SIR since crews stopped collecting fares (graffiti, drunken passengers, etc.). The people are usually quoted as requesting that fares be reinstated.
David
It is not considered socialism when you pay for other essential GOVERNMENT services through taxes, why is it that the trnsit system is different?
It is not considered socialism when you pay for other essential GOVERNMENT services through taxes, why is it that the trnsit system is different?
Who says it isn't? Any government service that could be provided privately is a form of socialism. It is impractical to have a society completely free of socialism.
The question is, to what degree should a society be socialist and what would be most beneficial to said society?
Now you've gotten to my point. This is an area where the benefit is so widespread that its revenue should come from the tax base exclusively
No, I haven't?
What about food? That is far more important than transit. Should that also be 100% funded? Where does it stop?
Food is not a government service.
So why then should transit be a government service?
It should be privately handled.
Mike Quill (rest his soul) proposed this exact thing in the late 60s.
I suppose that balances his advocating doubling the fare in the mid 1940's. :-)
When my house catches on fire I don't have to run out and give the firefighters a token so that they will fight the fire. Why should I pay for the transportation that is a necessity of a functioning city?
You will pay for the service whether it is by buying a token or in the form of higher taxes. I, for one, am NOT able or willing to pay more in taxes!! The latest round of real estate tax increases is enough!!!
Should all necessary services be free? I could argue that electricity and telephone service is just as necessary as transportation. Should all these services be included in our tax bills??
It's really a pretty basic economics question, one that is also heavily tinged with politics.
You balance the egalitarian ideal of accessiblity for all against the need to ensure efficient use of resources. That's why almost everything that is publicly funded is rarely completely free, but usually significantly subsidized. The subsidization helps ensure broad access, encouraging the egalitarian society we hope for (but never quite achieve), and the pay-for-use portion helps ensure there isn't unecessary use driving costs up too high. That's why there's a co-pay with health insurance. That's why we pay to ride public transportation or to file a lawsuit or get a passport or any number of things than many, if not all, people will do at least sometimes.
It is an economic question, but most of the time the nominal charge is politically set, based on a balance of the political clout of the users and the political clout of the rest of the taxpayers.
That's why roads are so hugely subsidized but everybody pretends that a car is private transportation. Socialism that looks like capitalism. Perfect for the U.S.
Let's not forget that the "Eisenhower Interstate System" was built for the same purpose as the Autobahn in Germany - the primary user is the MILITARY. Back then, our military was concerned about commies landing in Canada and marching across the border or WORSE, an insurrection by AMERICANS somewhere in the US requiring military response. The clearances and sizings were designed by the military to fit the equipment of the time (and today's specs STILL go by those mandatory clearances of bridges, widths, etc) ... that's why you'll ALSO notice frequent straight runs every X number of miles to permit the landing of aircraft if necessary.
But we get to drive on them in "peacetime." And of course, what was good for GM was good for America as well, but it was Military purposes and needs that created the interstates. Note also that in some states where the "Eisenhower" signs appear, there's a pentagon arrangement of stars on the Eisenhower logo. Ah, if only the military considered railroads vital. :(
that's why you'll ALSO notice frequent straight runs every X number of miles to permit the landing of aircraft if necessary.
http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp
Ah, well ... but that black helicopter hovering out in my yard is real, right? :)
Thanks for the info!
A spec that was proposed was landing areas for flying cars because everyone thought they would have been invented by the 60s or 70s.
A spec that was proposed was landing areas for flying cars because everyone thought they would have been invented by the 60s or 70s.
They were invented in the 1930s...there just happen to be a billion practical obstacles to their use as personal transport: cost, the high degree of skill it takes to be a helicopter pilot, the air traffic control nightmare that would result, etc.
Mark
The late Cole Palen had one on display at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome when my father was stunt flying on weekends back in the '50s and early '60s... as I recall it was strictly a display piece. Interesting looking critter, kind of like an overgrown VW bug with wings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interstates are officially called "Interstate and Defense Highways", but I had always assumed that this was simply a device to get them funded - on the grounds that the American people won't vote for taxes for anything other than the military, so you pretend that something is military so as to get it funded.
Turns out what I'd heard wasn't correct, no surprise there. But Americans are an odd lot - no matter WHAT the purpose of the tax, we'll whine and wriggle and howl. Ah, if only folks on this side knew what YOU GUYS pay in taxes, the whining would stop. Nah. :)
No VAT here either. Then again, at least the rest of the world GETS something for their taxes. Here in the states, we give the proceeds to the rich.
Telephone and electric services are not provided by government agencies. Subway and bus service is. It is already subsidised with taxes, mine and yours, but when you ride you are subject to another tax. This second tax should be spread among all taxpayers including businesses. The tolls and gas tax should be treated the same.
By the way, those damn Metrocard Machines suck! They always malfunction, I remember 2 of those @#$% machines stole my money! So from this day on, I go to the clerk at the booth.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I've been using MVMs since the beginning and have *never* had a problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
Neither have I.
Chicago uses a similar system, and I've never met anyone who lost money in a machine. I've heard of peoples' cards getting mangled in the faregate readers, but even that I've never seen or heard from anyone I knew.
I as well. I believe if the transaction going wayward, you may request a receipt as evidence. Also, look at the machine number on the MVM itself. You can report problems having that number in mind.
Consider yourself lucky.....
-Stef
Well I never had a problem with the MVM. YOU should have went to the booth and told them what happened [I'm sure you did that]. Anyway, you're going to have to use it sooner or later.
Staten Island Railroad and Bronx Tour Trolley are free ways of getting around if you can use them.
Staten Island Railroad and Bronx Tour Trolley are free ways of getting around if you can use them.
The Staten Island Railroad is not free. It is the Staten Island Ferry that is free.
if you don't get on/off at St George then the SIR is free
It's just not worth trying to collect the fare elsewhere - the vast majority of riders use St George. The high costs of trying other means to collect the small percentage of lost fares is just not worth it.
I mean, the "Honor System" in various other cities could be considered "free" too if you avoid paying the fare. Doesn't make them free, just makes some riders dishonest.
like the (5) at night and the fare beating
The Staten Island Railway does not collect a fare unless you exit or enter at St. George. Neither do train personnel attempt to collect fares on board. Thus, for transportation between most Staten Island destinations served by SIR (but not St. George), the ride is indeed "free."
This is in contrast to the honor system used on other systems, like Los Angeles MTA, where you are expected to pay a fare but passengers are only spot-checked for fare tickets. If you are caught without one, I believe the fine is $300.
>>> This is in contrast to the honor system used on other systems, like Los Angeles MTA, where you are expected to pay a fare but passengers are only spot-checked for fare tickets. <<<
It is just as incorrect to say that you are expected to pay a fare in Los Angeles as it would be to say you are expected to pay a fare in New York. Both systems require that you pay a fare.
You misname it when you call the Los Angeles and other POP systems an "honor system". There is no more honor involved than there is to collecting fares at a turnstile which can be physically jumped over. Jumping over a turnstile, or entering an exit gate, or the exit door of a bus is illegal. The difference is that in turnstile systems, it is not necessary to carry anything after entering the system. In POP systems you are required to pay a fare before entering and have proof that you paid the fare on you at all times. Therefore those who are dishonest have only a momentary time to worry about being caught at the time of entry in a turnstile system, while in a POP system the fare beater runs the risk during the whole trip.
To be an honor system there would be no checking of tickets at all and no penalty for not paying. Some say that describes the LIRR during commuting hours. :-)
Tom
Chicago (and I imagine many other cities) has a tourist "trolley" system with (diesel) buses made up to look like streetcars that ferry tourists between major sites. They are regular enough that locals can (and occasionally do, though not often) use them for some trips that would normally be the purvey of the CTA bus or rail system.
Gawd, I can't stand those fake trolleys. Gimme a bus, or, a trolley bus, or, a trolley. I don' need no stinkin' feel-good wrapper.
There is "free" service in NY. It's called the Staten Island Railway - just don't exit the system at St. George.
And the SI Ferry is "free" too.
While you're at it bridge and tunnels should be free too!!
I'm with that!
And MTA should serve free cold cuts and cheesecake slices in station mezzanines.
>>> While you're at it bridge and tunnels should be free too!! <<<
Right on brother!! They were set up by The Man; a clear case of entrapment!! Free the bridges and tunnels!!! :-)
Tom
sure would take a hell of a load off the working poor 4 sure ....
the transit dependant would benefit highly ......
the money that could go to medical rent food clothing shelter ...etc
sure would take a hell of a load off the working poor 4 sure ....
the transit dependant would benefit highly ......
the money that could go to medical rent food clothing shelter ...etc"
sure helps when you R outa work cause of "BUSH & the REPUBLICANS'..!!
yea ! a GOOD IDEA-NATIONWIDE 4 sure !! ............lol !!
woooooopeee.......
YOU MUST BE NUTS TO GIVE SEVEN MILLION CUSTOMERS A FREE PASS. AND WHEN TRANSIT SYSTEMS GO BANKRUPT, YOU WILL KNOW WHY WE HAVE NO SUBWAYS AND BUSES. YOU MIGHT AS WELL GIVE EVERYONE BREAKFAST, LUNCH, AND DINNER FOR FREE!
calm down first and B reasonable ...............!
our payroll taxes pay 4 it ...
Many americans are more 4 somethin' like dis' over the
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS WASTED ON THE WEAPONS & WAR DEPT. BUDGET !!
cut these corporate welfare rip off types and there would be
plenty of money to fund free bus and rail transit for everyone!
How about using the surplus money to promote manufacturing and industrial trades, improved job and college training, and develop a better, highly skilled labor force, instead of giving us a free pass. Sad to say, but when was the last time you bought a T.V. that was made in the good old UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Everything in the electronics industry is less expensive than even 5 years ago because of cheap labor overseas, too many layoffs in the U.S. workforce, the ecomony SUCKS! (World-CON, Enron, Tyco, Martha Stewart, Kmart didn't help), the list goes on and on.
k................but
at least would you support a 50c / w free transfer fare for all
rail and bus systems ??
i do own one of the last USA made cars a 1982 caprice SW with a
1983 oldsmobile 350 engine ........
still runs great with a lot of tlc ......
i do wish my digital still cameras vcrs and tv sets were still made
here by usa union paid labor for sure !!
i agree with most of your post thats why first i asked 4 the free
transit fare first then no more that a 50c fare at the most !!
thankz .......
Good point...I think a fare may be a necessary evil, but tranist should be subsidized to keep the fare as low as possible so that those who really need it most can afford it. A 50-cent fare would be great, but I'd be happy even to see a $1.00 fare in larger cities.
I also think programs like TransitCheck here in the Philly metro area are a great idea and should be expanded to help riders cover their transit costs.
Mark
My employer has an excellent transit-subsidy plan.
They pay for 50% of my commuter rail pass (which here in Boston includes all the subways & buses you can eat :-) The other 50% comes out of my pay check pre-tax, which results in an additional savings.
They also encourage transit usage by imposing a hefty on-site parking fee for those who choose to drive.
>>> They also encourage transit usage by imposing a hefty on-site parking fee for those who choose to drive. <<<
Is that by government mandate? In the ‘80s in L.A. when rail transit was being proposed (and supported by local government) large central city employers and local government employers were prohibited from providing free parking for employees.
Tom
It's not a mandate, but an option that Massachusetts employers have.
how does transit check work ? i would like to really know about this
In the Transit Check program your employer gives you a voucher every month that you can use to buy passes or tokens from any transit agency in the Philly Metro area. The dollar value of the voucher is decided by the employer. My employer gives me a $15 voucher every month, which is kind of odd since a monthly pass is $70.
Mark
If you didn't want to pay the remaining $55 out-of-pocket (and you had another means of transportation), could you save up five months' worth of vouchers and cash them in for a monthly pass? Or could you by $15 worth of individual fares each month?
Sure. You can use the Transit Check voucher to buy tokens, a wayof purchasing individual rides. You can also save them up. I sometimes get my voucher after I've already bought my pass, so I just use two of them the next month and save $30 on that pass.
Mark
wow the minimum wage folks should get this break too....
I would like to see this made available to minimum wage workers, the ones who really need it the most. But I have no idea how widespread participation in the program is, since it's completely voluntary.
Mark
The transit system that is funded by taxes would not go bankrupt. Thats like saying the police department or deptment of sanitation would go bankrupt.
they could have free buses and fare charged subways.
They do have "Shuttle Bus Service" in the Bronx for those long G.O.s on the (2) and (5) lines. For once the Bronx gets something good instead of being screwed over, FREE BUS SERVICE, now if only the (6) line could shut down for a few weekends...
The M7 and M102 shuttle buses, I think could be used as free transport at night(for about 11-12 blocks) or is it only for (3) riders?
The M7 and M102 shuttle buses replace 3 trains from 135 St to 148 St/Lenox Terminal in the late nights. Not all people like shuttle buses you know!
but they are free!
I know but some people get frustrated by it b/c it adds time.
MTA should have a free East Midtown rush-hour shuttle bus (more doors, less seating) running on Lex and 3rd Avenues between GC and 68th Street Subway stop. Would take load of of Lex Subway for people working in Midtown and using either F, N, R, W, E, V, and 7 trains or MNRR.
Arti
TANSTAAFL
R.A.H.
...and may I say, damn right!
or how about a fixed 50c fare for all bus / rail systems nationwide?
If E-Z pass can be used up and down the Northeast and the Great Lakes, so can Metrocard:
With each public transportation system having it's own fare collection system, how about expanding Metrocard to SEPTA, WMATA, Balitmore Transit, even CTA in Chicage, etc? We may not be sure about the Unlimited riade cards outside of NYC, but with the Pay-Per-Ride system, the correct fare amount can be deducted from the card, regardless of which transit the card holder uses.
Something to think about! After all E-Z Pass can be used on the NJT, GSP, NY State Thruway, PA Turnpike, AC Expressway, many others. So lets have a universal fare card for public transportation use.
>>So lets have a universal fare card for public transportation
use.
<< Its called cash. Seriously, you are certainly correct that with minor software tweaking much of this should be possible, STARTING with PATH!
PATH's post-9/11 budget includes a new farecard system for about 4%0 million. I guess we'll see if it's Metrocards or not.
They should install Metrocard on the commuter railroads. Rather than have to swipe at Grand Central and Penn, where they might be congestion, just have entry and exit swipes elsewhere. If you don't have two swipes from somewhere else, assume Penn or GCT is the destination. Use CCTV and roving police to arrest those who hop up on the platform to avoid the turnstile.
>>> If E-Z pass can be used up and down the Northeast and the Great Lakes, so can Metrocard: <<<
Isn't E-Z pass a credit card system? Does the card itself store value, or is it linked to a credit card and when you use it, it is charged to your credit card account? MetroCard is a debit card in that you must deposit money with the MTA before using the card, and you can never spend more than you have already paid for.
Sharing the same card is easy with a credit card system. There is no float. With a debit card it is a little more difficult. Presently it is the MTA holding your money. There is no money being held by SEPTA or WMATA or any other system. What is their incentive to let you use an MTA debit card? They would have to bill MTA to get the money owed. What's in it for the MTA? They have the float already. What is their incentive to send money to other transit systems?
Tom
E-ZPass is a debit system. The debit system can be linked to a credit card so that, when a balance drops below $10, the account is replenished to the average monthly usage (with a $25 minimum). But some prefer not to use a credit card and to instead replenish by check or cash.
Further complicating matters, there is no single agency that holds all E-ZPass accounts. My E-ZPass account is maintained by the New York Service Center, which handles the Port Authority, MTA, New York State Thruway Authority, and New York State Bridge Authority facilities. If I use one of those facilities, the NYSC forwards the money to the proper agency. If I use some other facility, say the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the NYSC sends the money to the PTC.
If MetroCard were expanded to other systems, each system would install its own MVM's and would only have to send bills when a card purchased on one system is used elsewhere. Automated billing is certainly feasible -- in addition to NYCT, MetroCards (even unlimited passes) are accepted on the NYCDOT private bus routes, LI Bus, and SIR, and there's been talk of expanding MetroCard to PATH and BeeLine.
But I don't think there's sufficient demand for all those other agencies to revamp their fare control systems to take MetroCard. It would be a fairly simple matter for the CTA, whose cards are basically MetroCards encoded differently, but except for tourists, NYC and Chicago don't have many cross-users.
"... how about expanding Metrocard to SEPTA, WMATA, Balitmore Transit, even CTA in Chicage, etc ..."
It's a money issue, the MTA wants it. They don't want others selling cards that get used in THEIR system. The deal with PATH was a had sell to the MTA. CTransit was another had sell.
However "Smart Cards" are coming, so this may all change.
Man! Down here in Puerto Rico the MBA charges from 25 cents to 50 cents for 1 freekin bus ride. On nearly all routes, exapmle: A5 A6 B8 C10 B40, 25 cents. FOr METROBUS 1 (san juan capital to rio piedras ) 50 cents. METROBUS 2 Santurce Bayamon banking district, 50 cents. And only the old...(senior citizens. Sorry!) pay a quater. On the other lines 10 miserable cents. Now we're getting a "New" train. Something that was GOING TO "ÖPEN". According to the government ! Septembe of 2002. NOT!!!! the cars are coming from SIEMENS of California. They look weird. Fare! $1.20. Senior citz: 60 cents.
Any1 want pics of train terminal and the looks of the shitty construction? Let me know. As well as if any1 want some bus pic's to.
INCLUDING NOVABUS LFS. running on Metro1. Startts at 5am and ends at 11:30 pm daily.
.........especially with this depression coming on .........
" cut the weapons and war budget ""
" reform the war budget "
& you will have plenty left over to do this with ease !!!
FREE TRANIST NATIONWIDE 4 SURE !!!
espeially in a depression........
You should know you can't escape paying the percentage of the state tax of whichever state you're dwelling in. Revenue for transit companies is crucial to maintaining its operating systems. Why do you think AMTRAK has gone through a financial turmoil recently in the past? Without fares, it would've shut down by now. Taxes don't cover EVERY service of necessity in the community. You'll notice that the amount of tax you're paying is already covering the funding for your highways, your state (so the state can have funding for various types of sorts, i.e. a building project), and federal business.
Food is a necessity. Why should it be free? Why isn't it free? A home is necessary for healthy living. Transportation is a necessity. School is. If you researched the breakdown for the taxes you are paying, these exclude personal service benefits. Understand the definition of the word 'tax'.
Not EVERYONE needs public transportation to get around. Hence this covers for the 'paying for the schooling system when I don't have kids to send to school.' Would it be fair to the people that don't use public service just as you don't think it's fair that your taxes are going to schooling?
Consider this:
A bulkhead of NJT's operating expenses is based on passenger fares. A large 46%. The other subsidiary companies that support NJT do not amount to more than half of this number for each subsidiary NJT has. Fractions remaining from 100% are covered from various sources, with a backup from the state government. Take out the fares and NJT (or any other company) has no money to fund itself. Then we should make all transportation free. Gas free. Trains free. Airplanes free.
NO.
Think of the term "EVERYONE" and you'll see that EVERYONE does not need some things that one person might need for convenience.
Services that are not covered by taxes, the resident must pay for. Probably some research of where your tax goes will help in this situation.
BTW. 911 service comes along with a service fee.
Noticed a new picture on the rotating banner images of a LIRR diesel train zooming on the express track, but the caption does not mention the location where this pic was taken. It's at Woodside station, and the train is heading towards Jamaica.
Not new, just random. But I fixed the caption anyway.
Does anyone know what happened to William Menden (BMT president) after the BMT was sold to the city. Someone told me that he was involved in the construction of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel - does anyone know in what capacity??
Thanks
After yesterdays rush hour 12-9 on the F at 34th/6th. There was another today, at around noon, at 47/50th. When I got on the D at 34th we bypassed 47/50, it would seem a train (think it was a V) had struck someone about 3/4 of the way into the station, not a pretty site.
From what I could piece together, all N/B Fs were going up 8th Avenue and N/B Vs were being switched to the express tracks north of 34/6th.
Peace,
ANDEE
NEWS REPORT HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
found it somewhat ironic that today's 12-9 happened at 12:09
Yes, very ironic.
Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's coincidence, not irony.
Now that's something, see how things happen nowadays......
Hmm.. I concur.
12:09? I encountered problems during the PM Rush.
Fs and Vs were running on the express track from West 4th to 42nd Sts, bypassing 34th St on the way up. Ds meanwhile, were picking up passengers on the downtown platform.
-Stef
There was a big delay on the 1 last night about 9:30PM, anyone know what was up? They said "Police Investigation"
12-9 also. My train was turned at 96St and went back south. Got a nice OT from it as well.
Da Beastmaster
Just a rant on the state of annoucements out there, cuz it seems like things are going downhill.
Two weeks go I was posting at 239, "customer injury" at Court St so 2 was running via Lex. I hope on the N from 42 to Lex and try to catch the 2 there. 5... 5... 4... 5... then I see a 5 going to E180, figure I can ride the layup up to 239 if it goes that way. Get to 149/GC and magically a 2. Turns out the common practice now with the rerouted trains is to change the route on the computer as opposed to making manual announcements. Nice, so the customers looking for the 2 can stand at 59th till they turn blue.
Or this one I took this morning on the A line. "Utica Av. Get your C across the plat. A train Manhattan bound. Nostrand Av next." No, I am not abbrevating Avenue here. He actually said "Av" (pronounced Aav)and "plat". Are the two extra syllables really *that* much?
No wonder people out there think TA workers are morons.
I think you are out of line here, and I don't work for NYCT:
I do believe that there is a LOT of misinformation, and supervisors at major towers don't know trains very well or don't care. When the building collapse last week suspended all Metro-North service. the announcement at Grand Central/IRT platforms went like this:
"...for Metro North service, take the Shuttle to Times Square, change there for the #1 to 225th st (some were saying 242nd st).." trouble is the #1 does not stop there when 1/9 skip-stop service is in effect (announcement made at 5 PM) AND waht about the instructions to get to the Harlem/New Haven Lines? (Take the #4 uptown to Fordham Road and then Bx12 bus to Webster Ave, or walk 8 blocks east OR #5 thru express to 233rd st, walk 5 blocks west, etc.)"
Some conductors are just as guilty, they tell you that you can transfer to the #7 train when it wasn't running in Manhattan the past 3 weekends. But that doesn't mean they are morons, it's just no excuse for them not to read the G.O. listings they carry with them all the time.
He didn't say TA workers were morons, he said the public thinks they're morons.
I believe you're both right.
They aren't morons, but some are lazy, and some are working with miserably poor information because management doesn't make it a priority to give them good information.
Lazy might be an understatement for some. Remember the major West side IRT G.O. that had no train service below 34th st? Well I stood at Chambers St on the A and C lines, a transfer point to the 1 and 2 trains at Park Place back then (9/11 emergency service plan), and stood there for an hour. Although Park Place was closed, and according to the posters "...the A and C are the only way to go" (between Midtown and Lower Manhattan on the West side), not ONE single C/R mention that G.O.. (they all made this announcement: "you can transfer to the 1 and 2 lines at the rear end of the station." or similar text).
Now is THAT being ignorant or what?
Know what I think? I think it's you who are ignorant.
I am a conductor, and I resent the hell out of that remark. For your information, sir, conductors have no foreknowledge of G.O.s that don't affect their line. I work the C line. If I don't know that the 2 or 3 is not running at Park Place, then I'm going to say, "Transfer to the 2 and 3." at Chambers Street.
When I sign on to a job at my terminal, I am only told of G.O.s that affect the C line. There have been times that the A ran a G.O. where there was no service to Far Rockaway and I said, "Transfer to the Lefferts Blvd. and Far Rockaway A train." Is that my fault?
There's only so much a road conductor can do. There's no way we're going to know the G.O.s for 23 lines at the same time. You wanna rant? Why don't you rant that there's no in-station announcements being made over the station P.A. at those affected stations? Why don't you rant that there's not more platform conductors on the platform to help confused passengers find their way through the system?
You have some legitimate gripes, but getting on conductors' announcements ain't gonna solve the problem. It's easy to yell at the low man on the totem pole. Think about the higher-ups at the MTA who are paid to think up these confusing general orders who sit at home on weekends while the road crews and the public suffer through them. Call them ignorant.
Next time, think about what you say before you say it.
You're both right.
C/R's should adjust their announcements for GO's on other lines. It happens on occasion -- I've heard C/R's on the D and 6 announce that the usual transfers to the E aren't available.
But it's unreasonable to expect that if management doesn't give its C/R's a complete list of GO's, ideally organized in a useful fashion for each C/R, along with some extra paid time (would 15 minutes suffice?) to study the list.
If you want a rant, it's that service advisories are almost never posted on trains these days.
There are times when if a G.O. is major enough, other lines may include it in their announcements. The "E - 6" transfer at Lexington Avenue is a major one. If one or the other is not working, the conductors need to be told that so they can make the appropriate adjustments to their announcements at that station. But I still say that it's generally impossible to know all G.O.s on all the lines.
If I sat in a station making announcements reciting every service change on every line along with the travel options, I'd never get to the end of the line and I'd never be on time. There'd be no end to the number of passengers coming to my cab window asking questions. There'd be no end to the people standing in doorways holding doors looking confused trying to figure out how to get where they're going.
As I said, there need to be more in-station announcements, and more passenger controllers to help guide them when there are major service changes. The world should not be placed on my shoulders like that. It's not fair.
On the other hand, I have heard many C/Rs make the critical announcements that keep people from wasting large amounts of time.
For example, if the 7 terminates at Queensboro Plaza, often 4/5/6 C/Rs on northbound trains at 42nd will announce "Attention, there is no 7 service in Manhattan. Please stay on this train to 59th St and transfer for an N [now it would be W, of course] for Queensboro Plaza."
This is a reasonable service that management should be asking C/Rs to provide.
I agree it is more difficult to handle things like the upcoming L GO. A 4/5/6 C/R would be at it for minutes on end explaining all the bypass options, and then they'd just be asked to repeat it. There I can accept that people who don't read the posters (different issue: posters need to get replenished because people tear them down) may end up wasting time.
4/5/6 C/R's don't have to mention the upcoming L GO, since anyone who needs the L has to get off there anyway and transfer to something, either train or bus. (I suppose that those bound for Broadway Junction might be better off going to Canal or Chambers for the J or to Fulton for the A/C.) But if, say, the SB R/W is running over the bridge one weekend, C/R's on the SB 2/3/4 should announce that passengers wishing to transfer to the SB R/W should wait until Atlantic. (But they can't be expected to do that if they're not given the information in a useful format along with time to read and digest it.)
"(I suppose that those bound for Broadway Junction might be better off going to Canal or Chambers for the J or to Fulton for the A/C.)"
That was my point. There are reroutes people might do because of the L GO, but they're too complicated for C/Rs to announce. But as you also point out, for many other GOs the serious incovenience to passengers can be greatly reduced with some simple announcements.
Computers are cheap!
There is no reason why a C/R cannot have a fresh prinout of his entire route and the GOs at all of his stations handed to him before as he boards his train. There is no need to 'study' it. Just READ the dang thing when you get to each station.
Heck, freight C/Rs get such lists for their entire train, including set outs and pick ups, the contents, and HASMAT information when they board the train.
Elias
Yeah, but freight C/R's don't have to deal with their cargo yelling and screaming at them due to work on that or ajoining lines.
Yeah, but freight C/R's don't have to deal with their cargo yelling and screaming at them
All the more reason that NYCT C/Rs should be given a fresh printout of their route before departing the terminal.
Elias
Cargo? Man ... I got in trouble for calling them "geese" ... watch out for them termatos. :)
Thats right: If you send it by SHIP then it is CARGO
but if you send it on a TRAIN then it is a SHIPMENT!
You also may park your car in a DRIVEWAY, and drive your car on a PARKWAY.
Elias
Well, you can wait here in the sitting room, or you can sit here in the waiting room. I'm soooooooo tired ... :)
Each of the 465 subway stations has a weekend service changes poster listing all of the G.O.'s the riding public can read. Many, not all, conductors ride the subway to/from work, and I was not expecting conductors to identify ALL General Orders, and what to do, just the major ones involving no train service.
Think about it, you ride the #1 train and you ask the conductor at Times Square where is the E train, she or he tells you "go downstairs and follow the signs.". When you walk through the long passageway to 8th Ave side, you find out that there is no E train, because it was rerouted over the F line. So you have to hoof it back the same passageway, take the #7 train, take it one stop to 5th Ave and pick up the E or F train there. Or, if you are clever enough, you can take S/B A or C train to West 4th St and pick up uptown E there. But in the process, you walked nearly 3 long blocks underground just to transfer to your train under the first option.
I consider supervisors totally devoid of any nature of providing the right information to conductors and train operators, the West side IRT G.O. I mentioned in the last post was a TRIPLE MAJOR one. And I DO understand that Conductors are kept in the dark on this matter. Even tower operators on the IRT are just as guilty as well, when the #5 train is not running in Manhattan, there were NO ANNOUNCEMENTS, NONE WHATSOEVER about the #5 train affected by a G.O. Compounding matters, conductors on connecting routes to the #5 (with the exception of the #2 train or course.) made the incorrect announcement.
Even G.O.'s or no G.O's, announcements are made with transfer routes that don't run, such as the N train in Manhattan on weekends, or the B and V lines, also on weekends. THAT is no excuse there, because the subway side of "The Map" has a table on the lower right side, broken down by time of day, of all subway lines: it tells you when "No Service" is listed. Some C/R's need to take a few minutes out and study the subway map, like I do.
You are not expected to say "transfer to the L train shuttle bus or #1 Uptown trains running express" people will see that and will have to use alternate routes at that station anyway. I just want customers to perceive conductors as better informed, so I won't have to make these announcemnts while I'm riding the Q train as a courtesy measure. When we had Shuttle buses between Atlantic Ave and Propspect Park, I try to see some poeple to the Shuttle as an easier and better way than standing in the cold for a crowded bus, take that to Botanic Garden and use the IRT there. I don't get paid for doing this, I do this anyway, 'cause I love to help whenever I can and I'm a dedicated transit buff that will not do stupid things (like stealing uniforms to gain restricted access to employee facilites or operate a train.) to get attention. Sadly to say, some customers have came up to me and told me straight up, that I'm more knowledgable than the conductor, this is not a good perception for conductors. They are dedicated civil servants, many of whom have 25-30 years on the job and transit is in their blood.
But amongst all this, I still consider many conductors to be dedicated, helpful and a few I can mention, to represent the best of what NYCT has to offer. PERIOD!
Even tower operators on the IRT are just as guilty as well
Whoa there. That's the job of deicated announcers (which are conductors), which are in the towers during GOs. The only place you'll find a TW/O making an announcement is where there are no dedicated announcers and no T/D's. Then they're responsible for announcements. And if they didn't make them, you'd be 100% right - TW/O is guilty. But especially in the IRT where GC and TSQ controls most of the area, they have dedicated announcers. No announcements? Then complain, most of those C/R's are being paid O/T to be there, and should be doing their job.
Dedicated Announcers don't work Wkends unless they are on overtime. Most times Grand Central or Times SQ don't have them on Wkends.
Hey, Dave! The Dedicated Announcer I know ain't all that Dedicated...Hahahahahaha! :)
(Just bustin' some nads)
HaHa! We need to give him a job at Grand Central.
"Dedicated Announcers don't work Wkends unless they are on overtime. Most times Grand Central or Times SQ don't have them on Wkends."
I hope there is one at Mott this weekend.
Da Beastmaster
Let the games begin!!!
Station Dept Personnel will be busy directing the crowds to the buses.
It will be an inconvenience for me getting off from work at 66th St 1:30AM on Saturday, and have to hop into a shuttle bus, unless I decide to walk home at that hour (which I've done).
Speaking of the switches, two new homeballs have gone up, and a wye switch is being cut in at the end of M Track south of Jackson.
-Stef
I hope so. Last Wkend the T/D had to make the announcements.
He's absolutely correct. We in the A divison do not know anything that goes on in the B divsion. Unless we are on the 7 line, which transfers with many B divsion lines. So as far as a weekend GO is concerned, we only know what is going on our line and our line only. Just last week, I thought that the 3 was supposed to go Uitca Ave only with shuttle train service to New Lots. I also found out when I got Nevins St, that the S/B 3s were running express from Atlantic to Utica with the 4s. The 2 was the only S/B local. This is within my A divsion, my West Side. And you expect for me to worry about GOs on 20 other lines. Sorry.
You know I got you back Road Dogg.
Da Beastmaster
I saw a #3 train on the express track at Franklin and yes NYCT never informed anyone that the S/B #3 trains ran express, bypassing Nostrand and Kingston Aves. In you scenario, it's the fault of higher management (many don't care) about posting information to the public and to it's employees. According to the poster I read it only mention that "Trains run in 2 sections", nothing in print about "in addition, Utica Ave bound #3 and #4 trains skip Nostrand and Kingston Aves." (#4 trains stop at Nostrand and Kingston from 1-6 AM daily, a little later on Sundays)
It does help to read the weekend service changes poster at your terminal station (most stations have it.), since you are correct that management and supervisors are too lazy to at a minimum, tell you the important G.O.'s that have no train service in either direction at a transferring station. Only computers can memorize every G.O. and I don't care about knowning whether the D train runs in 2 sections at Bedfoofrd Park or not, it's not as important as the #7 train not running in Manhattan
BTW: The #7 train is in the same A division as your #3 train.
"BTW: The #7 train is in the same A division as your #3 train."
The No.7 Line is A Div. but they are controled by the BMT Control center. The #7 is it own little line and don't hear about what going on with the rest of the IRT Line. On the 4/5/6 the only way I know the #7 isn't working is if its roped off.
I got your Back Beastmaster!
Only computers can memorize every G.O.
Yet the computerized announcement systems can't be programmed for GO's on other lines. How silly to pass up the opportunity.
change there for the #1 to 225th st (some were saying 242nd st).." trouble is the #1 does not stop there when 1/9 skip-stop service is in effect
Somehting like that Skip-Stop service may have been suspended, or the 1 just made that 1 extra stop.
Let's make it slear I didn't say they're morons. I said the public perceives them as such.
Now that's real convenient....NOT! I agree with your rant on the 5 changing into a 2 but let the A train C/R thing go, its not worth getting angry over.
As far as the C/R on the 2 who changed the R142 to 5, he/she probably felt it was easier to do. I remember the GOs when the 2 would run up the Lex and every East Side stop, I have the external speakers on. I would clearly state that is a #2 train making all 5 Lexington stops. There is no 5 service, please use this train to....... Still, the pax come up and ask if the 4/5 is running. This delays you and your train now because some people still dont understand that the 2/5 runs together in the Bx and Bklyn and interchange lines. Now with the updated annoucementd transfer R142s on the 5 line, you can program it to say:
5: 7AV EXPRESS
or
2: LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS
Unfortunately, the #2 R142 has yet to recieve any new updates transfer annoucements on their trains.
Da Beastmaster
I use to try the same thing during my brief time on the #2 Line. I would program it as a # 5 Lex Ave EXP to Neried.
What's wrong with just saying "Change here for other trains to Elsewhere!"
I will be in downtown Atlanta in 3 weeks, and I plan to visit the Martin Luther King Jr. historical sites there. Does MARTA rail have stations near these sites?
Yes, the closest one is, appropriately, King Memorial on the East Line. Walk north about 2-3 blocks on Grant Ave and then when you hit Auburn Ave, turn right and you'll be in the Sweet Auburn Nieghborhood and you'll see the MLK Vistor Center, Memorial, and the the rest, it's all right there. If you want to, you can walk west down either Auburn Ave or Edgewood Ave to Downtown for a nice stroll.
Make sure you see the great view of the skyline from the train when you are between Georgia State station and King Memorial, it's one of my favorite views of the city.
Brighton Beach Bound Q service was disrupted from about 5:30 PM until about 6 PM, by a fallen tree on the S/B Q tracks just north of Kings Highway. Work crews were busy with chain saws and cleared the tracks of the tree. It was windy and cold out there and the workers and police did a great job.
I was on a Q local that eventually ran express into Kings Highway. I got off there and shot some video of the crews finishing off the job.
When I got on the first local that came through, I was surprised to see the carsign:
Stand clear of
falling trees,
mad dogs, and
closing train doors.
Dang! If only there were one more slot in the computer, it could have also displayed the final slide, "Burma Shave." :)
Here's a shot of the crews working on the tree. I think there was some concern that the tree might have damaged the cables hanging from the trees.
Stand clear of the falling trees
I was on a slant, we got to Prospect park over 30 minutes late. We get the lineup for local but have holding lights. Over the PA were are instructed to go to Beverly and to contact Brighton Beach but the C/R would not close down dispite the pleading of the T/O.
Then off we go and the C/R moves to the other car thinking we are going to Church, needless to say the train stops at Prospect Park, C/R comes back and asks over PA if we are stopping (duh). T/O gives two buzzes.
We then go local all the way to Newkirk where there are four buzzes and the C/R walks foward. (We were 30minutes late at Prospect, now we are near 45minutes late).
A local Q pulles up on the express, we cross over and pass a Q local at EVERY local stop, we near Kings Hwy and slow as the T/O sounds off. We stop and crawl pass the crew cutting trees. The tree was in the cables that run next to the right of way (Signal Cables?).
A police officer was at the end of the platform keeping people away for 10 feet or so.
PA annoucements were stating NO Brighton Service, take the B68 on Coney Is. Ave or the Flatbush Ave bus (forget the number).
They were still stating that as the next Q pulled in on the express track.
Lou... I was on the front of the local Q that picked you up at Newkirk... How did you like the PA system at Kings Highway??.. It was on constantly and sounded like a chain saw was being piped into the mike... Up until Newkirk, all they kept announcing was that there was an "incident" at Kings Highway...
"Up until Newkirk, all they kept announcing was that there was an "incident" at Kings Highway... "
Would you rather we say nothing at all??????
I think the problem at Kings Hwy with the PA was that two differnt people were trying to make annoucemnts at the same time.
At least it was cleaned up very quickly and service wasn't disrupted too badly. Another good thing about the Q, a disruption is cleared quickly USUALLY.
Falling trees and mad dogs,oooh, that sounds like Sea Cliff! :-0
Even got treated to a power outage tonight because of a falling tree.
The NWS has high winds in the forecast through the first half of tomorrow, so dont be suprised to see more of this!
Add some Englishmen and you'll have something by Noel Coward. Or is it Joe Cocker?
Noel Coward
"In Bangkok at twwelve o'clock they foam at the mouth and run,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun!"
So there are Thai foamers..... (8-)
Work crews with chain saws were there? Any sign of Mark W.?
The way you always talk about me makes me think u are obsessed with me. Back off. I'm not your type.
What? I don't go that route, Mark -- sorry to disappoint you.
The reference of you with a chainsaw is an old heypaul joke about you giving tours on the old LIRR Rockaway branch and all the foliage that abounds there (i.e. it needs to be cut down with a chainsaw)...obviously, the rouse was lost on you...
Sorry, I'm not like your buddies at the Red Caboose ;)
I hope heypaul isn't looking for a job writing headlines for the New York Post.
Nah, if that was the case, the headline would have been
WHACKO TREE ON RAMPAGE TERRORIZES SUBWAY
I used that title because I was shocked when I saw the car card after watching them cut apart the tree. I didn't make the message up. I guess it was in the style of some of Randy Kennedy's article titles.
Stand clear of falling trees, mad dogs, and closing doors
I was on a CI-bound W train last October 12 that encountered a fallen tree branch just before 9th Ave. We sat for at least 15 minutes until a couple of TA workers came and cut the branch off. Even with the nonstop Sea Beach express run coming back, it still took nearly an hour to get back to Union Square.
Beacuse Fred was with you complaining you took the W not the N
Actually Fred wasn't with me. I told him in advance I'd be doing the W before we were to meet for Mass and he was cool with that. Well, thanks to that fallen branch, I was 20 minutes late and the priest was halfway through his homily by the time I showed up. I met Fred in the church vestibule after Mass and we headed to dinner in Little Italy - on a Q, of course.
I should have changed to a Q at DeKalb on the way back to Manhattan...
Well to all of you I know,and those of you who know of me.I never meant to be a jerk or anything like that but I was passinate bout my job as a T/O and C/R.Today was my last day with MTA RTO I have officialy resigned ,and have been hired by New Jersey Path.After 16 years of service I am sad and happy,Happy to get away from all the crap ,horrible T/D's,Murphy Tower,and Off the street buffs who sware the railroad wont run without them.LOL nah I take that back they were always good for a Laugh LOL.I will miss alot of people and Cleaners "WINK WINK " (SubBUs).So Monday I start with path and will keep you posted on how that goes.
Congrats, guy! Another one goes down the PATH of righteousness. :)
good luck with the new job. welcome to new jersey.
As a daily rider of PATH all I can say is:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
How do they clean the readers for metrocards
Since i frequently run into trouble, I was thinking of possibly getting the right supplies, and trying to clean some myself
I've seen them use special cards which seems to be dipped in a solution.
It is a white felt card wich is soaked in alcohol. In some booths agents have bottles of rubbing alcohol in case the cleaning cards are dry. Sometimes agents use the alcohol to make the cards very wet. Sometimes it'll get more dirt out. Outside of some people not knowing how to swipe a card, dirty readers are the main reason why metrocards don't work.
Now you guyz know why i didn't switch over to revenue with 21 years of experience in coin recognition, note recognition and change machine operation. Too many people monkeying around destroying equipment with a lot of money at stake. CI peter
With the state quarters I for one have to look at all the quarter sized coins that come in the window. The back of the Delaware quarter looks like the French Franc coin.
As far as the bills, I keep a sharp eye out for phony $20 bills. Anything else, I just try to push it out to the next customer.
The closest I come to change machine operation is look quick at the small coins people push at me and count fast.
Other than that, If I see someone hanging around a MVM a little too long, I call downtown.
If they're using "rubbing" alcohol then they are making things
worse. Rubbing alcohol containings lubricants and moisturizers
intended for its primary purpose: rubbing on the skin. These
ingredients will leave a residue on the magnetic heads which
will attract and retain dust. Magnetic heads should only
be cleaned with a pure alcohol (e.g. isopropyl).
I've noticed that at certain fare control areas where passenger
traffic enters from one direction, I am much more likely
to get a SWIPE AGAIN failure at the turnstiles closest to
the entrance, i.e. those which get the most use.
The TA has a supply of pre-soaked cards that come in a sealed envelope. They are issued to Station Agents, Bus Drivers & CES staff at the Woodside O/H facility. We have some at this depot too.
MOIST TOWELETTES?!?!?! How *civilised!* :)
You hold them with the ends of you fingers with the pinky raised. Some even use them to floss < g >
Heh. I guess it beats the alternative, pulling hot moist towels through them with tongs. :)
Bus Drivers are not suppled with them. It is not part of our job to clean the F/B, it is the F/B mantaners job. All the B/O is required to do is to write the F/B up if it starts to give trouble with the M/C. As for me I got some from the Station Agents to pevent from having trouble with the F/B when I have driver. It would make day go faster if the F/B was working right and the cards went thought right away.
Robert
Make sure you use the TBT cards instead of the Head cards.
Gee, that's a surprise, as I had heard they were issued to TA drivers.
"Private" drivers don't get them ... a union issue :-( but most of the Inspector's supervisors have them ... that's better then the gum rappers that they used to use to wrap around the blown fuses ... yes we had one or two that did it & almost burned up a farebox. I told him we appreciated his dedication, but didn't need THAT kind of help.
Begs the off-topic question: Your handle describes you
as a T/O?
The bottles of rubbing alcohol I see in the booth state that it is isopropyl alcohol.
I think they use Q-tip swabs treated with a solvent...
The maintainers have the Q-tips. The agents in the field have white felt cards soaked in solution.
>>> I was thinking of possibly getting the right supplies, and trying to clean some myself <<<
A really bad idea – unless you also want to see if a real police station looks like the ones on "NYPD Blue."
Tom
What regulation do you think it violates?
There's no fraud, no tampering with the equipment.
I can see it resulting in a not very friendly inquiry by a police officer though.
If you are not authorized to clean the equipment then by doing so you are tampering with it (regardless of what you intentions are).
Actully they kind of do look like the ones on TV, well worn!
Echoing Old Tom, don't try cleaning the turnstile yourself.
If the machines keeps saying "swipe again", bother the Station Agent.
They'll either clean the R/W Head or shut it down.
Meanwhile, take a look at your own card. If it's dirty run it under warm water & use soap & a cloth or tooth brush. If it's got a scratch or bend in it & has given you trouble in the turnstile of bus farebox ask the Station Agent, very nicely, to move the money to a new card. But if it's a unlimited, "deal with it" until it expires :-(
Its a Student unlimited, and it only doent work at the standard turnstiles at chambers street, I have no trouble when the HEETs are working. I have asked the S/A to let me in, but she wont, saying that my card is too damaged. The card is a bit work in places, but i works perfectly at all stations except Chambers ACE, and Grand central
If the card is damaged, get it replaced. Unless you enjoy asking the agent in the booth several times a day.
It only doesnt work at chambers station, indicating that a turnstile, and not my card is the problem.
The chambers st station agents dont really seem to get along. After trying to get in at the north booth, I went to the agent, She told me that I should try again, and I did. after that, she told me to get a new card, and that she had told me 5 times before(really only once)she said it again, and then i tried for a third time. it said "just used". so I go the the middle turnstile area. i tell the station agent there, and she tells me to call the cops. after telling her that i just want to go home, she let me in.
it really doesnt make a difference now, being as the card will only work for the 35 minutes following this post
you have a student pass?
After friday you should have a new student pass. Try to keep it undamaged if at all possible.
I've seen a few at this depot in pritty bad shape. Like Rodney Dangerfield says, the kids give them no respect !
Back in my day, it was "Bus passes" that were issued monthly. To get the covetted "train pass" you had to be commuting from San Diego. :)
And those looked like hell in no time in the wallet along with that metallic-foil covered square whose internal round object was wearing through the edges from complete "no hope" of ever being used, but you left it in the wallet anyway in HOPES that you might actually use it (know whut I meen?) ... I'm convinced that the red foil square package with the picture of a Greek warrior along with "water tested on our special machines" (man, wouldn't you pay out the wazoo to have railfanned that factory in Piscataway, NJ there at "Young's Drug Products" corp?) was the cause of destruction of bus passes.
I can only IMAGINE how munched those cards must look these'a'days. :)
Yes, we got out of the monthly pass business, thank God, but it seems most kids have trouble with there MC versions now, mainly because of how long they have to use until the next one is issued to them.
And no trade-ins I s'pose?
If you lose one you can get a new one the next day.
And since the old card takes a few days to get cancelled, there is no loss in asking for a new one.
That policy may have changed however.
nope you ask for a new one and they hand you a new one and they tell you
"bye"
after that they call in and deactivate your old one
But, it can take a while for the old one to die everywhere.
First someone has to update the "negitive" list, then it's got to get downloaded to every subway station & bus depot,
THEN ever bus has to come back to the depot for a probe to get the farebox up to speed.
today was...well just a great day,but after school today something
caught my eye,i was at the euclid av station,as i got on R32#3934 i was looking at the black flooring,then i saw the rollsigns with the handturners(turn the rollsign via hand)i,d never thoght i would see
those things on the IND(sure on the IRT,but never the IND)on the R32,s
i would see the rollsigns that would be turned by crank,these rollsigns could be turned by hand,i turned the rollsign,s and here some of the stops they had on the rollsign,s:
1.FAR ROCKAWAY
2.LEFFERTS BLVD,QUEENS
3.JFK AIRPORT
4.JAMAICA CENTER
5.kew gardens,union tpke
6.JAMAICA CENTER,179 st
7.rockaway blvd
8.crescent st
9.myrtle av
10.essex st manhattan
11.utica av(i think)
12.smith-9 sts
13.HOYT-SCHERMERHORN
14.PACIFIC ST(I THINK)
15.JAY ST BOROUGH HALL
16.WORLD TRADE CENTER
17.2 AVENUE
18.WHITEHALL ST
19.34 ST 6 AV MANHATTAN
20.34 ST 8 AV MANHATTAN
21.57 ST 7 AV MANHATTAN
22.B,WAY LAFAYETTE ST
23.W 4 ST(I THINK)
24.95 ST BROOKLNY
25.KINGS HWY BROOKLNY
26.18 AV MCDONALD AV
27.EASTERN PKWY
28.EUCLID AV
this is car #3934,anybody ever been on this car?and am i right about some of the stops or all?
i,ve been on the R42 many times,today i was on car 4746,it had the black flooring:)i was thinking about the R42 rollsign,s.i think those rollsign have same stops i listed.and i know they are signed for the
J,M,Z and L and they still have the K on em,but what other letters do
the R42 have,i think there also signed for the V line too.
I remembered the Redbirds weren't the only Subway cars the you can change the destination by turning the hand lever. I think all of the R32's use to have them, until they change them to be crank operated. Some of the older Subtalkers might know more about this.
Yes, all R32/38 cars had the knobs, which were removed during GOH for obvious reasons.
The R40/42 didn't. They had one piece rollsigns (which limited the possibilities of service they could show) which needed the same crank tool that's needed today to change them.
I think R32 3811 still has the knobs too. Haven't been on it in a while so I will have to see for myself.
You'll find a couple of cars on the E with the hand turners.Of course none of them displayed the proper destination when I was on them, and I wonder why ;) dang school kids...
I once saw a 32 on the N with South terminal being "Howard Beach JFK Airport" I didn't go inside so I don't know if that 32 had knobs or not.
Well, to make up for that, one recent weekend I saw a Howard Beach-bound R-38 A train signed consistently for Kings Highway.
On a R38 A recently, I saw these destinations.
NORTH TERMINAL
GRAND ST
C 8 AV/FULTON
And no I'm serious, I was laughing my ass off when I saw that 8-).
On the R32 and R38 rollsigns, there is a "North Terminal" and "South Terminal". Though rarely used, it is useful when the train terminates at a station (usually due to a G.O.) that is not identified on the rollsign OR the two points the train is traveling between are on the same rollsign, and the other cannot be used.
But many times this happens, they use "Special" on the rollsign as identification, as they have been doing this practice for decades.
I know that but its the signs that was on that A train, Grand St come on, pure delinquency ;-). Saw it on the L train shuttle bus GO on Sunday rollsigns were like this:
8 AVENUE, MANHATTAN
SOUTH TERMINAL
The south terminal was Lorimer St, obviously there was no Lorimer St on the R42 rollsign. On the R143's, they had Bedford Av as its destination.
Something that would be interesting, the rollsigns saying North Terminal and South Terminal, no route and the announcements are garbled boy would people panic ;-).
Forgot the car # but on the 2nd car from the south end of a Q diamond train, it had "Union Tpk, Kew Gdns" as the rollsign. I saw that yesterday evening, so it's the 2nd car of a southbound train. Looked really wrinkled up too.
Once on the Q a few years ago [on a R40], I saw the blue K and partially showing the G train bullet as well instead of the orange Q.
My favorite sighting:
nice pics:)
til next time
Cool pics, David. Eastern Pkwy, Crescent St, yellow B now that's something to laugh about 8-). From what I see, its probably a N train for real.
Hmm... don't matter what train, with that short of a run I wanna know what job that is and how the guy got it ;)
yeha,i know,i never thoght they would have at least some of the stops i listed.
til next time
i think some of the R32 have crank-turned rollsigns as the hand-turned
rollsigns were removed during GOH.
til next time
The hand cranks were removed during GOH. Either some were missed, or subsequently a few sign boxes were replaced with leftovers from some other car class(es) that still had their hand cranks.
David
As far as I know, three R32 cars still have hand cranks. R32 #3381 is one of them. I can't recall the #s of the other two. Also, some of the Redbirds on the Flushing Line still have their handcranks too.
I actually never paid attention to that on 3934. I'm not sure if the R42's have the V though, probably do from the GOH. The R42 rollsigns have just about every route sign including the H & K but NOT the letters like P and X.
I know the R32 rollsigns; the old ones from the GOH have practically all letter route rollsigns except W *I THINK*. They even have bullets like P, U, X etc but its a white bullet, black letter.
BTW, I rode that car [3934] quite a few times on the A; I'll look out for that.
I know the R32 rollsigns; the old ones from the GOH have practically all letter route rollsigns except W *I THINK*.
It's there, but only in a diamond, and with no reference to the West End line:
you put up some good subway pics,maybe i can send ya some of mine soon
i once rode the R32 on the W line,it was a cool ride.
til next time
That's interesting. Well that's all the proof I needed.
today i got on R32#3934,i geuss it,s on a daliy basis,i see at the
euclid av station like around 2:48 after school on the c line,anyway
here are some more stops i found:
1.south terminal
2.franklin av
3.168 st,manhattan
4.207 st inwood,manhattan
5.prospect park
6.botanic garden(i think)
i think they also have these stops too.
til next time
Oh wow!! I just came across this article describing the awarding of a $7000 grant to an assistant professor in Florida to do a project entitled:
Genetic Transit History: A Public Interactive Artist's Installation Engaging NYC Public Transit, The Human Genome Project and Innovation and Innovative Use of the World Wide Web.
Genetic Transit History
Boy, if he could get $7000 to do God knows what, then I should put in for a $20,000 grant to photograph the rat population along the Broadway BMT line.
"Lawrence takes a map of human DNA and overlaps it onto a map of the N line of the New York City subway."
I love it ... between this and your rats there, Unca Fred's going to have a canary. :)
I wonder if Unca Fred's DNA and the track diagram of the N train are one and the same. Anyone ever check?
--Mark
There is a DNA match between the N train and Fred, their offspring is called Sea-Beach
Yow! Now THERE'S a scary thought. Maybe it's actually a rat? :)
I wonder what they would grant for a study on:
NYC Railfans - Foamers or Genetic Artists
This makes me mad. There are real working artists out there (not just in NYC) who deserve money and attention on the Web, who could use the subway (and the map) as a medium, and who aren't sitting on their butts at schools writing grants. Also artists who are working hard studying genetics. And their whole reputation is being wrecked by put-ons like this flip son of a .... GRRRRRRRRR.........
So I have a friend who vehemently argues with me that ...
1) St. Louis Car makes the worst trains
2) The Slant is the worse train ever
3) Any train without the door tones sucks
He told me today that someone's jacket got stuck in doors, causing door problems on a Diamond Q which resulted in a 30 minute delay in service. He then uses that to back up his argument that the Slant is the worse train ever.
What are your thoughts about the Slant? Did it have a shoddy maintenance record when it was first introduced in service?
I've always hated the slants riding them anyway. When starting them out of a station they give a hard bucking like the R40M, and the R42. Yes, I think the GOH done by Sumitomo in 1988 gave the R40S a better interior amongst other things, but overall, they stink as well as leak water inside when it rains.
They may be pretty speedy through the 60 ST Tunnel but I do have to say that their time is near. They're "duct taped" on the roofs so what does that tell you?
R32 Budd's are the best of shape among the cars without chimes.
#3531 R Broadway Local
You think the duct tape is bad, when it leaks forget about it, its a puddle sometimes and seats are lost however R38 roofs are worse to me though they have duct tape AND brown superglue. But the 40's have great A/C, the one of a kind RFW and nice windows.
Don't you love exaggerations like that?
St. Louis Car and Foundry did some very nice work over the years. So did American Car and Foundry. They're gone now, along with Budd (the railcar side of Budd, that is). So the argument is moot.
If only you could shed the same insight to my friend. To him, if one thing happens on a certain car class, then it means the whole car class is crap. I told him stuff like that happens on other trains (once saw a 32 on the E depart from station while a part of some guy's jacket was protruding from in between the doors) but still couldn't get him to change his mind.
Hypocritically, he sort of likes the R44 (just because its 75' and it has doortones) even though it was manufactured by St. Louis Car.
More craziness, he doesn't see the point of people crossing in between trains, and feels storm doors should be locked. He brought up how a very young child died on a Slant after the storm door went open as the train was navigating through a cruve and he fell out. Of course, I suppose he would advocate to keep storm doors open if there was a mugger or killer causing trouble and he (my friend) would have no means of escape since the storm doors would be locked in his ideal train.
In terms of problems, the R-40s difficulties were due to the design concept, which was not done by St. Louis Car -- they simply built what they were given, and then modified it for the final 100 R-40s when the flaws became apparent. Back when they were first delivered, the 100 AC Slants certainly weren't considered terrible during the summertime, though the 200 non-ACed Slants were ovens due in part to the modified axleflow fan design, which only served to demonstrate how much soot could be blown onto the celings of the cars.
You can knock the company for not building the R-38 through R-44 classes completely with stainless steel, but again, NYCTA and the MTA didn't demand it in the bid specs. Overall, the company's product during the 1950s and 1960s was unspectacular, but reliable until the lack of preventive maintenance got to the entire fleet by the late 70s. The R-44 was more flawed on delivery, which helped kill St. Louis Car, and of course the R-46 was built by Pullman-Standard with the Rockwell trucks, which almost created the first "low rider" fleet in subway history.
The slants also have slightly reduced capacity because of, well, the slant. The slants and the R40-M also have the worst shaped seats in the fleet, at least as far as I am concerned. The top of the seat back hits me in the middle of the back. The R42 is much more comfortable.
I don't know, off the top of my head, if the mechanicals are any worse on the slants than any other car of that era. It is the TA's fault that they are not all stainless steel. And, the TA didn't add door chimes during the overhaul, which could have been done.
The slants' seating capacity (44) is slightly reduced compared to the R-32/38 class (50), but are the same as the non-slanted R-40M/R-42 cars. The rounded bonnets on the modified slants and the R-42s take up as much space horizontally as the slanted bonnet; the difference is at the top of the bonnet, where the original R-40 design is closer to the car. As for the seats on the slant and modified 40s, yea, they really suck unless you're about age 8 and under or have a growth hormone problem.
BTW -- Does anyone know what the seating capacity for the R-143s is?
>>>BTW -- Does anyone know what the seating capacity for the R-143s is? <<<
"A" cars are 42
"B" cars are 44
source: Kawasaki Heavy Industries
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
They make a great place to put duct tape!!
Given what I've seen, I'm surprised they don't have tape dispensers in the cabs. :)
"More craziness, he doesn't see the point of people crossing in between trains, and feels storm doors should be locked."
I think so too. That isn't crazy. That would reduce injuries.
"Of course, I suppose he would advocate to keep storm doors open if there was a mugger or killer causing trouble and he (my friend) would have no means of escape since the storm doors would be locked in his ideal train."
That reflects an exaggerated fear of crime. The subways are quite safe - safer than the streets, statistically, and the benefit of an open storm door is quite marginal most of the time (not all transit systems have open storm doors).
It's a little like arguing that you shouldn't wear seatbelts because "what if I need to be thrown clear of a burning auto?" 99.9% of the time it's something else that's going to kill you.
My favorites from each builder:
St. Louis: R-36 (the "Deluxe" World's Fair variant)
Budd: Metro-North/PC M-2
Pullman: NJT Comet I
Also
Bombardier: R-62A (singles)
Kawasaki: SEPTA SE car & R-68A
Wow a thirty minute delay? There's a conductor that's going to be seeing a bit of platform duty.
Not many things short of a 12-9 or a signal problem cause sthat kind of delay. And definitely not doors.
"He told me today that someone's jacket got stuck in doors, causing door problems on a Diamond Q which resulted in a 30 minute delay in service."
Tell your friend that a tree fell on the s/b track north of King's Highway.
The slants ROCK! Sure they are duct taped together. But who cares? They are fast, sleek, and have awesome railfan windows!
Take Pride,
Brian
Little kids like them because they don't have to be so tall to look out.
I'm a big kid and I love to look out the window of an R-40!
-Stef
Yes, kids of ALL ages love the slants!
Take Pride,
Brian
Kids of ALL ages love the railfan window! Of course, your handle explains it all..........
You figured me out! How'd ya do it ;)
Take Pride,
Brian
It was so simple ;-).
I'll take whatever railfan window I can get, but the R-40 window is somewhat of a tight squeeze for two adults, while other railfan windows are wider. The best for the second railfan is a Redbird, since on other cars the handrails are out of reach. (The first railfan uses the door handle, of course, assuming it's locked.)
So am I. But I defer when children want to look out the window.
As for the slants and reliability. On the Q, I have never seen a slant go out of service in the past few years. I have been on a few r68 with problems on the local.
The slants sometimes have problems with the doors completly closing due to the rubber tong and groove not linig up, I have on a few occasions saved a train from going out of service by getting out of my seat and giving the door a little loving push to allow the grooves to line up
#4415 did that at Broadway Junction a few years back; the C/R got out, found the pesky door, gave it a kick and they went on their way.
wayne
The biggest problem with the R40 slants are the doors, a train was taken out of service at Newkirk Ave, northbound the last trip on the Q diamond for the night. I did try to help the C/R in searching for the "tiny gap" on one of the four doors and tried to close it. But to no avail, we were unsuccessful and Command ordered the C/R to take the train out of service.
Amen. The Slants rock. It's too bad the futuristic look is marred by those gates the MTA added. Eww.
I truly don't understand why they are so much hated. I loved the R40s from the days of service on the "E" and "F". They have a fast, smooth and quiet ride for a 1960's era car. All I know is that they saved the "A" train in 1977 from the R10s and in my opinion, the best car that ever served the "A" from 1977 until today.
The R40s to me were one of the best GOH jobs during the 1980's and 1990's. With the exception of the R38s and the 10 GE R32s, the rebuilt interiors of the R40 slants set the tone for the R32s, R40Ms and R42s.
The R40s would be one of the best looking cars in the system if the TA would do something with that damn tape and those scratched up windows. I think it is disgusting that after all that time and money, that the TA would run the R40s in that condition.
By the way, does anybody know why the R40s were taken off the "A" in 1985?
The slant makes it the ugliest train in the system
It was actually *VERY* 1960's (when it was designed) ... look at BART and toher systems of the design time, and it was "de rigeur" as a design concept - "sloped cabinets" in electronics, wedges for reailty, shoes for industry. The 'bulbous shapes' of OUR time will prove to be a similar design embarassment in the 2030's. :)
The cockpit of the "Heart of Gold", the spaceship run by the Infinite Improbability Engine in Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (the definitive send-up of EVERYTHING) from just after then, was "excitingly chunky." Thank god Thunderbird came out with its dolphin and put and end to all that.
Heh. Nothing typified the 60's design concept better than Fireball XL-5 and "Thunderbirds are go" ... Glad the pharmaceutical industry came up with better drugs since. :)
Don't tell me you actually used the word "groovy" back then.:)
Heh. Nah, those were back in the days of the mesh trashcans on the sidewalks of New York and whenever I heard "groovy" the person uttering the words would end up sitting in one. :)
But "kewl" was in wide use, as well as "bro" ...
Not to mention, "peace".
"The slant makes it the ugliest train in the system"
For a late 60's design, the R-40 slant isn't really that ugly.
The ugliness comes in when they added pantograph gates and other metal to make that dangerous gap safer.
Bill "Newkirk"
I really DON'T care if the R40 slants are ugly, I've seen worse, like the Rust-birds in their last days of service, or the dirty R142A cars on the #4 line, (has Concourse Yard ever heard of car washing?).
All I care about the R40 slants are three things: speed, reliability, and a working A/C. The R40 slants do a terrific job at all 3 criteria mentioned.
"or the dirty R142A cars on the #4 line, (has Concourse Yard ever heard of car washing?)."
The #4 line comes out of Mosholu Yard, which is adjacent to Concourse Yard. Concourse Yard is home to the B/D lines.
Da Beastmaster
I am not familiar with any of the current equipment, but based on the pictures I have seen, the slants would probably be my favorite model if I still lived there.
R40 has numerous shortcomings. The seats are terrible, they leak, the a/c drips in humid weather, they have no grab irons between blind ends, they are UGLY beyond belief, yada yada yada, &c. &c. &c. Then why on earth are some people (myself included) so smitten with them? Well, for one, they ARE fast, they do have a unique (though UGLY) look to them, and their railfan window can't be beat. I guess I could call them a sentimental favorite. I for one will be very sorry to see them go; I give them five years at the most, probably less if the R160/160A is ordered.
wayne
I'll be wearing a black armband when that day comes. The slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s on the A, that's for sure.
1) St. Louis Car makes the worst trains
Going by the current fleet, their track record is iffy: R29, R33ML, R33S, R36ML, R36WF, R38, R40S, R40M, R42, R44. All of them are iffy quality, and some are just bad. But how much is the company and how much was the TA's specs, deferred maitnance, and other variables? Not one of them is stainless steel, but that was the TA's decision. However, I don't know about the defferred maintnance excuse. The R32s and R46s lived through this era too, and they're in decent shape.
2) The Slant is the worst train ever
I'd take a slant over a redbird anyday. The seats aren't comfotable, but the air conditioning works, at least post-GOH. The look of it is far from beautiful, but it is unique. I guess "funky" is the best adjective for them.
3) Any train without the door tones sucks
Now that's just silly. The door chime is a good thing, but I don't think a train lives or dies by it.
:-) Andrew
Going by the current fleet, their track record is iffy: R29, R33ML, R33S, R36ML, R36WF, R38, R40S, R40M, R42, R44. All of them are iffy quality, and some are just bad.
Iffy quality? Just bad? Aside from the R-44, which has always had problems, and a questionable design for the R-40, I've seen no evidence of iffy quality in any of these products. They're all at least 30 years old, and they've aged, but that's to be expected.
I'd take a slant over a redbird anyday. The seats aren't comfotable, but the air conditioning works, at least post-GOH.
The air conditioning works on most mainline Redbirds. It's only the Corona cars that seem to have trouble.
Remember that these cars, as with most of the fleet produced by St. Louis Car, lived through the deferred maintenance days of the 1970s. Considering how well they have held up after that, I wouldn't call their performance shoddy at all.
--Mark
WHAT? The only thing that was really wrong with the slants was the slope of the nose, then it had to get pantographs taking the futuristic design away. The slants have the best A/C in the system IMO [I enjoy it on the Q express in the summer].
1. St Louis was a GOOD company
2. The slant was NOT the worst car ever made
3. Well he's saying that every train before the R44 sucks
Your friend is NO Railfan it looks like and the person don't know what they are talking about! I think the slants are wonderful; excellent RFW, large windows, excellent A/C; although the seats could of been a little higher.
He claims to be one, but considering how he asked me about the "BMD" line (he meant BMT), I think he's probably a rookie railfan. If not, he still has some work to do, as he occassionally confuses car classes.
Noormally, the cash fare on the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority is $1 (transfers are free).
On days when there is a smog alert, KC Transit reduces its fare to 25 cents to encourage ridership.
My guess is that strategy is more relevants to cities without heavy transit utilization.
I bet SEPTA could attract more riders to me lightly used portions of its system with this strategy.
Miami should try this.
Does LA MTA do it?
"Does LA MTA do it?" No, it doesn't, but it's an intriguing idea. Los Angeles and Houston are in contention for having the filthiest air in the nation.
"My guess is that strategy is more relevant to cities without heavy transit utilization." Actually, Los Angeles, despite its reputation as an auto city, does have reasonable transit utilization, thanks in large part to a large immigrant population. Its buses have the "heaviest load factor" among large U.S. cities. That's another way of saying its buses are the most overcrowded.
Yeah, that's true - especially in the poorer sections of town (where buses don't run often enough...)
>>> Noormally, the cash fare on the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority is $1 (transfers are free). On days when there is a smog alert, KC Transit reduces its fare to 25 cents to encourage ridership. <<<
I doubt that it is a very effective in the economic sense. How much does the typical automobile commute cost in that area? $4.00 per day? (Not counting ownership costs). Therefore the typical commuter is willing to pay an extra $2.00 over the cost of public transportation for the perceived advantage of driving. An extra $1.50 savings every so often at unpredictable intervals is not likely to change the pattern.
I think if there is any significant rise in bus ridership on cheap smog days it is in extra rides by those who would not have traveled at all, and those drivers whose attention to the seriousness of the smog alert is enhanced by the fact that the bus company is lowering fares, and therefore takes the bus because he wants to cut down smog, rather than to save money. This latter group could be switched to public transportation by they mayor calling for reduced use of cars without any price reduction.
Tom
You make some good points.
Gas prices here of late have had near $1.60 a gallon for regular gas (87 octane). How are they doing out in LA?
>>> Gas prices here of late have had near $1.60 a gallon for regular gas (87 octane). How are they doing out in LA? <<<
About the same.
Tom
I recently found myself in need of some ridership numbers for SEPTA and found their website, as with SEPTA in general, severly lacking.
Other transit agencies put at least something there for people to read but not SEPTA.
I did a Google search for anything current but could only find data up to 1996 and it didn't have the numbers I was looking for (specifically, CTD bus and rail).
Does anyone here know where I could look?
This might be a question for Michalovic --
Did anybody ask why a metro rail company named itself something that implies that it needs to be swabbed down? I'm not being snide here -- a good PR company would have said, call it SEPHA or STEPA or *something* that doesn't have that, uh, flavor to it.
I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but SEPTA is known for being secretive, sometimes deliberately and other times out of a sheer failure to grasp the value of pubic relations.
As for their name, I have some friends who spent a summer here in Philly. They weren't impressed by the cleanliness of the trains, so they carried a bottle of hand sanitizer with them, and they labeled it "anti-SEPTA-ic."
(What's more the name is plural, the plural of septum, meaning a rubber bottle stopper that you can easily put a needle through.)
Mark
yeeeEEEEEsh.
But it doesn't make sense. Most other large transit angencies share at least dated information with the public.
We're not so special here in Philadelphia, so what gives?
Who's up for a ride on the 5:31 AM "C" train sb out of 96th St Wednesday morning? I am. See ya there.
Take Pride,
Brian
I'm up..... but what was the reason?
I just have a feeling that the 5:31 AM is one cool train. Just kidding. I have to go to work early today.
Take Pride,
Brian
Observed in service today. Assigned to #5 Service, the set made an appearance on the 7th Av Exp this afternoon.
-Stef
Stef:
Got it and confirmed independently. That's Train #33 of 37.
Nice job!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
370 Cars? I thought the 5 would get a 400 car alotment as the 2 already has.
-Stef
Stef:
Maybe for a little while, but ultimately that would only leave 230 for the 4. They need to replace the equivalent of 315 (320) R-62s.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You forgot about the R142A's. Or are the R142A's including in this count of 230?
Da Beastmaster
SubBus:
The 70 R-142As have already replaced most of the R-33s. The ultimate fleet plan for 4 is 290 R-142s, 70 R-142As and 45 R-62As, plus 10 for the GC Shuttle. That's 405 total. Mighty tight, considering its had around 420 cars for some time now. Reducing 4 to 230 R-142s makes it impossible to meet schedules as presently constituted...unless the Redbirds stay around, or service is cut.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The numbers don't seem to add up.
There were originally 1,410 R26 thru R36. Most were still in service as of 1999.
There will be a total of 1,550 R142/142a.
That is in increase of at least 140 cars, probably a bit more figuring that some Redbirds died pre 1999.
Why will there be a car shortage?
Because schedules right now take advantage of the current fleet, which, at least on the 4 and perhaps overall, is larger now than it will be after the last Redbirds are retired.
That still soes not make sense.
For example, there are 31 #2 trains in the rush hour. With 400 cars assigned to that line, that leaves 90 spares. That is over 20% spares. I think they are not getting the availibility from the R142 fleet that they were getting from the Redbirds, thus the car shortage.
While on this topic, does anyone know the maximum car requirements for all of the IRT lines?
On the R142 page on the website right, it is said that R142s 7131-7180 will go to the 4 line. What about 7731-7850? Are they going to the 3 line?
Probably 7731-7850 (120 cars) will also go to the 4. 7131-80 is only 50 cars and 7661-7730 (R142As) is 70 cars. I doubt the 3 will get any R142s or R142As. If I'm not mistaken, the 3 is to get the 4's R62s and the 4 is to become all R142s/R142As.
7731-7850 will become 1101-1220, and 7181-7210 are to become 1221-1250.
I am unsure of the status of 7131-80, but a few of these could be used to fill in #5 service until all remaining lower numbered R-142s (6800, 6900 series) are finally delivered.
-Stef
Interesting info... Personally, I'd like to know if the 1 may receive any in the near future.
Doesn't seem likely at this point, but it doesn't mean that it won't be the case... Car assignments are subject to change.
-Stef
"7731-7850 will become 1101-1220, and 7181-7210 are to become 1221-1250"
I still can't get over not using the 7000 series numbers and using the 1100 and 1200 numbers. Didn't someone on this board say the reason for the number switch is due to the R-160 numbers series ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I hate when they fragment the number series like that (both on buses and subway cars).
They had supposedly renumbered the R-44/46 class to make way for the cars coming in now. They should have just left those alone, continue the R-68A as 3001-3200, the 110's as 32 or low 3300's; then they would have had 5000 up for the R142-160 class.
Sorry no R142's or R142A's going to the 3 Line, maybe in the near future.
-R143 AcelaExpress
Amtrak Modleing Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
The projected allocations from 2000:
6301-6670 on 2 (370)=>6301-6700 are there now.
6671-7040 on 5 (370)=>330 are there now, including 7121-7130.
7041-7210, 7731-7850 on 3 (290)=>Change 7181-7210 to 1221-1250, 7731-7850 to 1101-1220 and 3 to 4.
When? How??
WHO KNOWS???
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
at least two but maybe upto 4 FL-9AC starships were put back in service after a mishap(kiss) with two Genesis cut MNCW short of power.
2040/2041 were seen on train in Harmon last night. the two Genesis involved 209 and 2** are possibly heading for Erie. Pa for repairs
Yes!
I was riding on the F toward Queens the other day and was in the front car. It had a cut out in the window tint so I could see out. As we left 21st/Queensbridge toward Roosevelt, I was looking out to observe the fairly new construction. What I noticed is that right before the tracks curve to the left and come up between the Queens Blvd local/express tracks just before 36th Street, the tunnel widens out and looks like it "Could" continue straight for future stuff. Anyone know what this is? Is is a truck entrance from the street? Also as the train is turning left after this, there seems to be a short platform built into the tunnel.
Any thoughts?
Thanx all...
Danny
There is a bellmouth there. Where it was to go is anyone's guess. My guess is that it was to have been the start of the "super-express" that would have gone to Jamaica via the LIRR ROW.
I've also noticed that from 21 St to the point where the line ramps upward to the E line, there is a very wide catwalk. Maybe that is your short platform.
It's the lower lever tracks continuing on straight twoards Sunnyside.
Also that vacant lot where all of the construction vehicles were staged is directly above that point.
"It's the lower level tracks continuing on straight towards Sunnyside."
That makes sense. Does the tunnel actually continue to the Sunnyside yard? Would that be for LIRR trains to use the other unused level of the 63rd Street tunnel? Or for a possible "Super Express" subway using the LIRR right-of-way?
As I understand it the lower level would continue to Sunnyside Yard while the upper level would make a left to connect with the IND Queensboro line coming out of Queens Plaza. I have no idea how much of the lower level tunnel is actually built. The "super-express" was to have started from the subway to the ROW on the LIRR to Jamaica. If that will ever be built is doubtful. Somewhere else in subtalk I read that MTA can not run both subway and railroad on the same track or route or ROW.
Yeah, theres that whole FRA regulation thing, too bad too cause the R44s or 46s could keep pace with the LIRR's stuff. I suppose that they could do something like PATH along the NEC in New Jersey, running the subway along the outside of the LIRR main, that or else just bury the line under the LIRR main, making it subway without disturbing streets, just a ROW that the MTA already owns.
The only other solution would be for either the NYC subway to become all FRA compatible, which is laughable in and of itself, or for congress to force the FRA to update it's definition of what is compatible and what's not. Germany can run LRTs on the VERY same tracks as the ICE3, using dual mode 750VDC/15kVAC moving at 80-100kph. But we can't run similar sized equipment on largely compatible mainlines, simply because some obscure FRA law says so. Does the M-1 even meet FRA crashworthiness requirements (then again, does anything?)? LIRR doesn't exactly see a whole lot of the huge coal trains that everybody always points too for the reason behind crashworthiness regs. So why not allow LIRR to run dual mode NYCTA/LIRR cars serving places like Far Rock, West Hempstead, Port Washington and so on? Oh wait, gee they might realize they could be proved wrong.
Why the heck is rail travel still segregated? I say tear down the weight barrier! I have a dream that someday, regardless of weight, power supply or push-pull versus MU, all options of moving people will be weighed equally to move people in the most efficient and safest method possible under catenary!
We shall overcome, oh we shall over come
Everybody! Let's hear it for equal rights for minority rail vehicles!
:)
Amen, brother!
They are now actually extending the lower level LIRR tunnel to Sunnyside as part of the East Side Access Project. I'm not sure if they're also extending the upper level subway tunnel to Sunnyside. They have the space to do it.
I'm not sure if they're also extending the upper level subway tunnel to Sunnyside. They have the space to do it.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line.
So *IF* that would happen you *could* run the (B) and the (Q) out Northern Blvd. This would relive pressure on the Flushing line, which in turn would permit it being converted to BMT standards and served by the (R) route.
The (E) and the (F) would return to the 53rd Street Tunnel
the (W) and the (R) (Broadway Locals) would use the 60th Street Tunnel
and the (B) (Q) and (V) trains would ride the 63rd Street Tunnel.
The (E) and (F) would run Express on the Queens Boulevard.
The (G) and (V) would run Local on Queens Blvd
and the (7) train would get a new elevated ROW following the LIE ROW pusing service into areas that are yet not served.
Elias
"I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
When the 63rd St tunnel work actually was started back almost 30 years ago, the plan was for a single track super express that would provide a 3rd rush hour track from somewhere east of Continental on the existing Hillside Ave line into Manhattan. It definitely was capacity releif for the existing QB line.
That was then, and this is now. There's no funded plan for anything more. There's lots of talk on Subtalk.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
That would've been the sensible thing to have done, Elias, and there is ridership for a Northern Blvd subway as it would have help offset passenger volume on both the Flushing and Queens Blvd. lines. Most of the north-south bus routes that serve areas like East Elmhurst and northern Jackson Heights and Corona brings commuter to the 74th Street/Roosevelt Avenue transit hub, leaving many commuters taking the 7 or E, F, R and V into Manhatttan. A Northern Blvd. line would lure these passengers away from the those trains and offer another, possibly quicker way into the city.
So either the MTA never realized this a possiblity for the connector instead of the super express line, or that the residents in Queens north of Northern Blvd. never really cared though funding for this line would've been a pain, though it would be a worthwhile investment, the state probably wouldn't have been able to pay for all that construction anyway; not to mention that Northern Blvd. is too busy a traffic median to be disrupted by subway construction.
However, that doesn't mean the 63rd Street connector wouldn't have connected to Queens Blvd. as that does now, if a Northern Blvd. line existed. The connector would actually serve a better purpose if connected to two trunk lines on the Queens side. It can allow three lines to serve 63rd Street, one which can include sending the Q to Northern Blvd. (if railfans want it back in Queens so badly, I personally don't care one way or the other) instead of all these proposals to send it to Queens Blvd., which we know can't handle all that service unless that line gets CBTC or something drastic happens on that line that changes it service patterns entirely.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
That would've been the sensible thing to have done, Elias, and there is ridership for a Northern Blvd subway as it would have help offset passenger volume on both the Flushing and Queens Blvd. lines. Most of the north-south bus routes that serve areas like East Elmhurst and northern Jackson Heights and Corona brings commuter to the 74th Street/Roosevelt Avenue transit hub, leaving many commuters taking the 7 or E, F, R and V into Manhatttan. A Northern Blvd. line would lure these passengers away from the those trains and offer another, possibly quicker way into the city.
So either the MTA never realized this a possiblity for the connector instead of the super express line, or that the residents in Queens north of Northern Blvd. never really cared though funding for this line would've been a pain, though it would be a worthwhile investment, the state probably wouldn't have been able to pay for all that construction anyway; not to mention that Northern Blvd. is too busy a traffic median to be disrupted by subway construction.
However, that doesn't mean the 63rd Street connector wouldn't have connected to Queens Blvd. as that does now, if a Northern Blvd. line existed. The connector would actually serve a better purpose if connected to two trunk lines on the Queens side. It can allow three lines to serve 63rd Street, one which can include sending the Q to Northern Blvd. (if railfans want it back in Queens so badly, I personally don't care one way or the other) instead of all these proposals to send it to Queens Blvd., which we know can't handle all that service unless that line gets CBTC or something drastic happens on that line that changes it service patterns entirely.
Agreed the lower level is supposed to connect with the LIRR at Sunnyside Yard. But a few times I've been able to get an F train going thru there and all I saw was the turnoff and a wall.
I know about the lower level but does this belmouth drop to a lower level to meet up with this LIRR connection?
My guess is after the LIRR trains enter the belmouth the route drops downhill to:
>Go under the subway tunnel.
>Go under the East River.
The bellmouth is for a super express track via Queens Blvd, the REAL purpose for the 63 connector but it could still be built no doubt about it.
Would interesting to see what ends up happening with all this...
Actually, the bellmouth is for...whatever use NYCT wants to make of it. It's designed to allow for tunneling in any direction.
David
That "platform" that you saw on the northbound track along the curve was the original alignment of the southbound tail track of the 63rd Street line before it was connected to the Queens Blvd line. When the line ran to 21st Street/Queensbridge, that's where the tunnel ended. As for the bellmouth off the northbound track going straight ahead, that too was the original ROW of the tail tracks of the 63rd Street line. It was intended to go either through or under Sunnyside Yards as the Super Express line to link up to the Queens Blvd. line in Forest Hills, which of course was never built.
Simple question: how many upper level subway tracks (NOT lower level LIRR tracks) go through the tunnel? Two or four?
I did my best: looked at the MTA capital plan and searched the SubTalk index on "63st" and "ESA". Mostly what I understood was a reference to 76th St. and Charlton Heston parting the East River with a gun.
Two subway tracks, upper level. Two LIRR trackways, lower level.
Two tracks.
At some point shortly east of 2nd Avenue, the two tracks assume a bilevel arrangement. Two additional trackways curve in from the north at 2nd Avenue. Beginning near 3rd, the two trackways have tracks; they're behind the wall at the Lex station. The four tracks continue into Central Park, where the two south tracks curve off toward 6th while the two north tracks keep going to 7th.
Currently, only the south tracks are used in regular passenger service. The north tracks are used for occasional GO's.
This should answer most of your questions.
The 2 trackways come from the SOUTH . They are the connections to the 2nd Avenue Subway. It would allow trains coming from Queens via 63 Street to go SOUTH along 2nd Ave.
The 2 tracks behind the wall at 63 Street are the connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway going NORTH. Currently those tracks are used for lay-ups.
There are two connections with the proposed 2nd Avenue line. I mentioned one, planned to carry trains between upper 2nd Avenue and the Broadway BMT. You mentioned the other, planned to carry trains between lower 2nd Avenue and Queens.
On 2nd Avenue there is supposed to be 2 connections.
One is the connection that I mentioned for trains from Queens to go south along 2nd Ave.
The other one would allow trains from either 6 Avenue (IND) or Broadway (BMT) after 63 Street to curve north along 2nd Avenue.
What I wonder, and no one has answered, is what happens to the LIRR trackways as they head westward?
Do they end in a blank wall somewhere east of 2nd Ave.? Or are they actually connected to the north trackways at the Lexington Ave station?
The LIRR trackways go into Manhattan along 63 St. They turn south at Park Ave and connect with the Metro North north of Grand Central. AKAIK not much of the route has been actually built. There are provisions for the route at Sunnyside Yard and some ramps at Grand Central and the area north of it.
The LIRR route has no connection with the 63 Street subway tunnel.
"They turn south at Park Ave and connect with the Metro North north of Grand Central. AKAIK not much of the route has been actually built."
I'm asking how much of the route has been built. It certainly doesn't go to Park Ave. Where does it end?
Second Avenue.
In a blank wall?
yes
Thanks.
First time I've ever gotten a straight answer on that question.
In a blank wall?
No actually there is a secret cave there where they grow mushrooms, and the front end of horses for further assembly in Albany.
Not much of the LIRR tunnel has actually been built. The original plan was to have a railroad terminal built in the area of 48 Street or somewhere in the area. Plans were changed and the tunnel was to connect with Metro North at Park Ave. Not much of the tunnel was actually built AFAIK. From what I've heard in subtalk just a tunnel heading at Sunnyside yard and some ramps built on the lower level at Grand Central and the ROW north of there.
The LIRR tunnel is complete under the East River, from the heading adjacent to Sunnyside Yard - it's the lower level of the subway tunnel. How much farther it goes on the Manhattan side I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, that's what instigated my questions, because I was hoping those stub tracks were going to continue onto trackways into the tunnel, for a total of four. Oh, well. Better the SAS.
63 Street tunnel has 2 tracks. Not counting the 2 tracks meant for the LIRR. BTW those tracks are not built yet. AFAIK.
It has nothing to do with 76 Street. The closest thing I can think of to Charlton Heston was one person nabbed years ago before the tunnel opened who was walking the length of the tunnel everyday to get to/from work.
How long time can take the longest trip on NYC Subway (from Far Rockaway to Wakefield, if I don't mistake)?
How long time can take the longest trip on NYC Subway (from Far Rockaway to Wakefield, if I don't mistake)?
Far Rockaway to Wakefield is not the longest single-line trip, as you'd have to change between the A and the 2. Far Rockaway to 207th Street on the A is the longest single-line trip and takes maybe 90 minutes. Far Rockaway to Wakefield would be about another half-housr.
207th Street to Far Rockaway on the A line is roughly 1 hour and 32 minutes when it's running express. During the midnight hours when it's running local, the ride is roughly 1 hour and 43 minutes.
>>>>Far Rockaway to 207th Street on the A is the
longest single-line trip and takes maybe 90 minutes.<<
What about the F from 179th to Coney, when the F is going to Coney, that is?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Gee, you missed the two Field Trips to the Beaches of Rock & Long in 2002. You could have found out first hand.
This writer started at Main Street, which isn't the longest trip that one could take in the subways, but it is up there.
Take the A from FR to Times Sq then take the 2 to 241 St-Wakefield. It should take about 2 hours to complete the whole trip.
What is wrong with the A to Broadway-Nassau to the 2 at Fulton? Easier to transfer there too.
Nothing is wrong with that.
columbus circle?
That would be the A to the 1 to the 2, unless you do it between midnight and 6 AM.
No, the 1/9 only stops there then you would have to transfer at Times Sq or 72 St; depending on which way you're going.
Overnights the 2 train stops at 59 Street. But I think the whole direction question was meant for during the day.
In that case:
I'll give you a choice:
1) Take the A train to Broadway-Nassau. Get off toward the back. Follow the signs for the Uptown 2.
2) Take the same A train to 42 Street. Get off toward the back of the train and follow the signs very carefully for the Uptown 2.
Overnights the 2 train stops at 59 Street. But I think the whole direction question was meant for during the day.
In that case:
I'll give you a choice:
1) Take the A train to Broadway-Nassau. Get off toward the back. Follow the signs for the Uptown 2.
2) Take the same A train to 42 Street. Get off toward the back of the train and follow the signs very carefully for the Uptown 2.
What about Chambers Street/Park Place? It's the easiest of the three.
What is the difference in milage between the White Plains Road and the Pelham Bay Lines in the Bronx?
As I mentioned before, I think Park Place/Chambers St is the easiest. Both of the transfers you mentioned requires a walk.
Da Beastmaster
"Both of the transfers you mentioned requires a walk."
No matter how you slice it, dice it, thrice it, ANY transfer requires a walk, one hike upstairs and one hike downstairs. That applies to all 3 of the transfers mentioned. If you have an Unlimited Ride Card, you can be adventureous and exit the A train at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, exit via. the west staircase, walk one block north and cross Fulton Mall to Hoyt St. on the #2.
I think that the Park Place/Chambers requires a less of a walk.
Da Beastmaster
Maybe you're right about Chambers/Park Place. I was thinking one has to walk up a certain flight of stairs to get the 2 line from the A platform. Also I think 42 St and B'way-Nassau have more people walking around there as well.
Maybe you're right about Chambers/Park Place. I was thinking one has to walk up a certain flight of stairs to get the 2 line from the A platform.
Up one flight, around a corner, down one flight. If you're near the rear of the A, there's really not much walking involved, far less than the transfers at B'way-Nassau/Fulton or 42nd.
Actually, the easiest transfer btwn the A and 2 is at Park Place/Chambers St which is one stop on both lines.
Da Beastmaster
Well, my version of a transfer from the A to the 2 involves 'A' to Hoyt-Schermerhorn (or Jay St.) then a 'C' to Franklin Ave. where I grab a FS ride to Botanic Garden for the connection to the Flatbush trains at the Franklin Ave. station.
It's the scenic route :)
Hey, Doug thats a trip I always wanted to do. I may do it on my Vacation next month.
Gimme a holla...I'll give you the 'grand tour' (old buildings and such along the ROW).
I just took this trip two week ago. I was in a R142/142A mood. I should have called you.
Don't sweat it...we'll all get together on one of Thurston's annual summer Rockaway Line SubTalk gatherings ('Trips to the Beaches of Rock 'n Long').
Wrong Mr. BMT breath ... we'll only do it when it's time to sweat < g >
Seriously, why would we do a trip to the beaches when we can't walk on the board walk ? I love dodging those speeders on the bikes and the bathing suits are nice to look at too < g >
I didn't say we'd be going anytime soon....geez!
Absolutely. Except at night, when Columbus Circle is easier, particularly southbound.
"Absolutely. Except at night, when Columbus Circle is easier, particularly southbound."
Yeah, I meant to mention that transfer as well. Thanx for the added info.
Da Beastmaster
I can easily answer this question because I have done this for years. Depending on what time you travel, it can take you anywhere from 2 hours 10 minutes to 2 hours and 40 minutes.
In the past, there was the *LONGEST* one seat ride in the system: CC Local from Rock Park to Bedford Park Blvd. The only train to cover all four boroughs of NYCT. Two hours, 11 minutes. Local all the way. Whew!
Now that was torture I'm sure ;-). And the CC/C was like that until 1992 when the C got shortened to Euclid all day weekdays.
I'm going to try and take a ride on the line tomorrow morning.
I think railfan windows are only on the R42's.
The "L" looks to be close to 100% R143. You CAN see out the window if you stand back and don't mind the "trails".
wayne
Probably closer to 80%. Last night I saw an R-42 or R-40M (I couldn't tell which) L train while crossing above on the 3.
Already that many sets on the L? Wow...
Yup, we need less than 5 trainseys before the L Line becomes 100% R143.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
R-42's with the exception of one or two sets of R-40M's are the only railfan friendly car sets you're likely to find on the "L".
Railfan with a R42 while you can people b/c soon they will all be gone from the L! There are a couple of sets left.
All of them are heading to CI Yard, correct? I wonder if the same will happen when the R160 sets start coming.
They're supposed to be going to CI but a few may go to the J too. When the R160 comes in, some models will be retired.
"Railfan with a R42 while you can people b/c soon they will all be gone from the L! There are a couple of sets left."
When the first R-143's debuted on the (L) we were all excited and were clamoring for schedules for riding or photographing them. Now with the line almost R-143's were clamoring to ride the last R-42's.
The changing of the guard !
Bill "Newkirk"
There are railfan windows on the R42 Cars that are currently being removed from the L Line, the L Line within 2-3 weeks will be 100% R143. It's kinda hard to ride the R42 now, because it is now being taken over by the R143 Cars, so if you catch the R42, enjoy it while it last on the L Line! You can see out of the R143's Cab Doors but you will be looking through 2 doors, because of the full-width cab.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I am thinking about picking one more day on the J, so I would have 3 days all new R143's and 2 days with the R42's. I still like the way the R42's handle, also I need to give my right hand a brake sometime from holding a controll all day. I think the R143's would have been better if the had the same controll as the R142's, this way T/O could have the option to change hands as needed.
Robert
GOOD LUCK !
Bill "Newkirk"
Coming back to Manahattan on the J and getting something to eat along the way back.
There used to be a deli in Williamsburg called Gottlieb's. Does anyone know if its still around?
Where in Williamsburg? Lee Avenue?
How is the ride on the NJT Light Rail vehicles? Are they smooth and comfortable? I was thinking about taking a ride out there on the Light Rail system and see how it was.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The better part of the experience is to stop at the lights and compare it to the speed of riding grade-separated. While the vehicles are bright and comfortable (the advantages of riding above ground on rails), it reminds you why you switch to an express -- the constant stopping. Definitely worth the ride, and a very short PATH trip to get there now that the Hoboken terminal (very handsome) is open.
The HBLRT is a very nice transportation line. First of all, think about this. It's the first completely new rail transit line built in the metropolitan area in, what, 60 years? It's expanding, going south and north. It has good connections to ferries. (Not great though; I heard the station in Weehawken will be a thousand feet from the ferry docks!) Still, there are five ferry loading points right now.
With the Hoboken stop, there are new connection possibilities, and a larger group of likely passengers. Hoboken Terminal is a real treasure. A working waterfront rail terminal...with ferry connections to upper and lower West Side of Manhattan, Battery Park and Wall Street, and ferry transfers (!!) to Queens and Brooklyn and other points. In this day and age. Probably the only one like it in the world.
I've walked over the Bayonne Bridge from Staten Island to ride it. Bayonne....kinda Brooklyn-like, Jersey style. It rides through some old neighborhoods. Starts out ground level. There are some cool elevated sections. And isn't that cool too, brand new elevated tracks build through city streets! Who'd a thunk it?
Essex Street in Jersey City....go check it out. You can't believe this is old J.C. Makes the whole area, like, feel brand new.
The elevated approach to Hoboken gives me flashbacks to something I've never seen (understandably....)...that Hoboken Elevated that used to go down to the Terminal.
I'm running off at the mouth here. But yeah, go check it out. You'll be amazed.
Been there, done that < g >
You missed the "Field Trip" MLK Monday ! A baker's dozen of use did HBLR & Newark City Subway. The cars are esentially the same on both routes, but the routes themselves are completly different, e.g. street running, cut, tunnel, private ROW, slow, fast, etc.
Worth the time !
"You missed the "Field Trip" MLK Monday !"
A.K.A. "deep freeze Monday" !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know this topic came up before, but I think the MTA should consider building a tunnel connecting either Brooklyn or Manhattan to S.I., sending SIRT through that tunnel, or you can send the 1 & 9 Trains to S.I. from Manhattan, or send the R to Staten Island, I think this would be good for commuters, this would be real high speed subway for NYC.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I completely agrre with you. You have to wonder if that ferry will still be around...?
I have given thought to this.
Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link.
If I would build such a connection, I think I would replace SIRT with LRV equipment, and then expand the system to include the North Shore routing, and street running on Victory Blvd and Forest(?) Avenue: But then what to do with them when they get to Manhattan. Do they terminate there with a transfer to the subway.
All this does is to move the SI transfer point from St. George to WTC. Not a good plan. I think I'd jsut keep the boats, and bring new LRVs into St. George. That is the most economically feasible project.
Elias
The three most cost effective ways to connect Staten Island to the outside world are...
1.) Run the HBLRT over the Bayone bridge, this can be done without removing any lanes.
2.) There are plans to extend the PATH from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport, from the Southern Part of the Airport to the Port Elizabeth area is less than a mile. The distance from Port Elizabeth across the Arthur Kill to Staten Island is very close ( Kerry Collins could probably throw a pass from NJ to a receiver on Staten Island). So if the PATH is extended to EWR (very likely), then all that's needed is to extend it by about a mile to a new Arthur Kill bridge (alot cheaper than a tunnel across/under the Verazano Narrows) and run it along the North Shore ROW.
3.) Would entail combining the Cross Harbor rail tunnel for Freight and Passenger trains, some sophisticated ventilation systems would be needed.
I'm glad you brought up these schemes. Connecting Staten Island to the rest of NYC is discussed here about once every two months, but I hear very little about the much easier option of connecting Staten Island to New Jersey. I've long felt that extending HBLR across the Arthur Kill would be a good idea, but I like your PATH idea a lot, because it would connect with SIRT. Do you have a preference among your ideas?
Mark
Postscript: When I called connecting SI to NJ "easier" I meant from an engineering and construction point of view, not from a political cooperation point of view! : )
"There are plans to extend the PATH from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport, from the Southern Part of the Airport to the Port Elizabeth area is less than a mile. "
I believe the PATH expansion plan is limited to extending PATH from Newark-Penn, along the NEC ROW to EWR Rail Station. PATH passengers would then use AirTrain-Newark to reach their terminals, just as NJ Transit and Amtrak riders do now.
Linking Staten Island to New Jersey by rail would be far easier. The problem would be finding excess rail capacity on PATH to get the trains through the tunnels into Manhattan without causing an extensive bottlneck, either around Exchange Place or Pavonia/Newport. Plus the Port Authority would have to be in on the deal, and the PANYNJ people representing New Jersey would have to see some sort of benefit for them to allow the use of funds to go ahead.
The Cross Harbor tunnel would be far more costly, but would have the advantage of having a line (the R) already waiting near the point where the tunnel would probably make land in Brooklyn. But unless the connection was piggy-backed as some sort of bi-level tunnel with the Cross Harbor Tunnel plan, the cost/benefit ratio just wouldn't be there (and building a tunnel to SI and then running a freight line around the north edge of the island to get to the old B&O railroad bridge to New Jersey would face NIMBY problems of its own).
>>> Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link. <<<
And you do not think that would change if there was a subway link to Manhattan? You need to take another look at the photos of Sunnyside when the Flushing line was built. It's a good thing they didn't decide then that they could stop building the El at Queensboro Plaza and rely on trolleys in that sparsely populated area.
Tom
Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link.
And you do not think that would change if there was a subway link to Manhattan? You need to take another look at the photos of Sunnyside when the Flushing line was built. It's a good thing they didn't decide then that they could stop building the El at Queensboro Plaza and rely on trolleys in that sparsely populated area.
Much of Queens was still undeveloped and suitable for new construction when the Flushing line opened. While Staten Island still has some undeveloped land, there's not enough, and hence not enough potential for new construction, to allow for significant increases in SIRT ridership.
I think you are limiting yourself to seeing new riders as only coming from new construction. How about getting cars off the highways? If the SIRT went right into Manhattan, I think it would be very popular and the growth would come from those driving now!
It would possibly move a lot of people from the express busses that pass by or are close enough to these stations to whatever subway lines in SI. No matter what, a link from SI to Manhattan or Brooklyn would also cause a massive realignment of the SI local and express bus routes.
=)
Note the short distance from EWR to Staten Island, and the closeness of NJ and Staten Island near the Goethals bridge.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/310290/M/
[...or you can send the 1 & 9 Trains to S.I. from Manhattan...]
With stops at Ellis Island and Liberty Island!!
- - - - -
[...or send the R to Staten Island....]
Robert Moses thought of that possibility - and made sure that the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge could NEVER be used for subway traffic.
- - - - -
In any case, Staten Islanders would get all NIMBY over any subway connection.
Does Staten Island really want a subway? I don't think so, look at how SIR is currently every 15 min rush hours, 1/2 hour all other times except nights and 1 hour late nights. Since people didn't fight for better headways, then leave it as is.
The 1/9 would become too long but its one stop; I think the R extension is a better idea however another possibility is a spur after 59 St on the 4 Av line it runs via the Bay Ridge freight rail line and goes to SI.
I'd like to recommend the following:
Reduce weekend service on the 4 line. Reduce the number of TPH's between 11am and 5pm. Eliminate all station switching jobs at Utica. Use those switching men for road jobs. All crews will do just two trips paying just eight hours, and everyone will relay their own train at Utica.
No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p and all 7 trains go local n/b.
The express 7 has a lot of demand durning off-peak hr.
And if there is only a $0.25 fare hike, 7 express will be the first thing to go.
Why is that exactly?
That wouldn't make sense to cut the 7. If any express services were to be cut, the Concourse express might be the first to go but I think NO express services should be cut.
no way, don't cut ANY Bronx Expresses, Cut the Brighton Express to rush hours only, extend the White Plains Road Thru express(to make up for the G.O.) for a while with <5> service lasting a whole 3+ hours during the rush and (5)(and a few <5>) trains will run express middays and early evenings(Bronx)
That's why I said NO express services should be cut. You can't cut back the Brighton express b/c it has consistent ridership throughout the day.
Thank you Flatbush. That's why Express service is used in the first place.
Your welcome. I just had to make sense ;-). All jokes aside though if there was no 7 express in the midday all the time [right now its shut down middays due to track work], trains would back up like crazy and would cause delays.
You really be nuts to have the gall to cut MY express service (which is crowded over the bridge to Manhattan, even at 12 noon). The Brighton Line was designed for full weekday (and if warranted, summer weekend) express service. Many Brighton line riders choose the express over the nearby Culver Line, because it's faster to/from Manhattan, and many stations have bus lines which intersect with the Culver line as well.
At the rate the Brighton line ridership is going, maybe when Stillwell is 3/4's complete in 2004, we may see weekend Brighton express service at least in the summer months. The worst and most crowded day for the Brighton Line outside of rush hour? The annual Coney Island Mermaid Parade, even more crowded than 4th of July.
On the weekends the brighton line would bennifit if it had 4 car trains more often. Currently the time between train causes the train to fill up.
With shorter trains utilizing OPTO. Both express and local service could be run at a lower operating cost then the current service. In addition it will convince people to not drive into the city on weekends.
I drive into the city on weakends if possible. Between waiting for the train(and bus) and local service it take adds about 20-25 minutes to my travel time vs 25 min by car
"Between waiting for the train(and bus) and local service it take adds about 20-25 minutes to my travel time vs 25 min by car"
How could it add 20-25 minutes to your commute if the Q line has 8 minute headways on Saturday from 6 AM to 11 PM and Sunday from 7 AM to 7 PM (approx times)? And, with the exception of the B16, B48 at Prospect Park, B23 at Cortelyou Rd, the B2, B31 for Kings Highway, and the B4 for Sheepshead Bay, most bus lines serving the Brighton line have 10 minute headways or less on weekends.
B11 at Ave J is every 15 minutes on Saturdays. Q runs every 8 minutes from 6:30AM-10:30PM on Saturdays and from 9:30AM-8PM on Sundays.
well the main ridership of the B11 are orthodox jews going from midwood to borough park, so on saturday there is no need for heavy bus service
Well I was bound to leave out a bus route sooner or later, I usually take the B11 to my favorite supermarket, Shop-Rite by Ave I/Culver Line. But HA! you left out the B67 (every 15-30 minutes) at 7th Ave.
Better stop now, cause our token booth at Newkirk Aveis slated for closure (lol). It's only for one month, the S/A will work outside the booth as the area is being tested and removal of asbestos starting 2/28/03.
How does it add to my trip?
It does. It takes aprox 45-60 min to midtown during the weekdays with brighton express service and the B2. On the weekends I am forced to take the B3 due to the B2 infrequent service.
It takes 65-90 min to get to midtown during at 8:30 am on saturdays and sundays(have a class at 10 pm). Add that with if I need to transfer to another train and if I am heading into the city to hang out and I am not getting home to midnight and the differnce between car and subway are even greater.
Looking at the return trip, my wait time on the broadway line for the Q doubles from 2-6 min to 8 min(lack of q diamond on weekends)
Instead of cutting back of the frequency of service, the MTA should be cutting the train length and size of the crew and run more frequent service preferable express and local if possible.
This would save money and provide better service to the riding public. The long waites for trains compounded by transfers scares many people out of taking mass transit on weekends and nights.
Plus it is a colosal waste of money and wear and tear on equiptment to run 600 ft trains when a shorter train would do
Of course the MTA would need to educate the piblic(make a tag name for the enhanced weekend service) and properly lable the areas where 4 car trains will stop to reduce dwell time. In addition in cab CCTV screens would reduce the dwell time if they were installed. The brighton line already has a cctv system covering part of most platforms (sheapshead bay, kings highway, ave h, j , m)
"On the weekends the brighton line would bennifit if it had 4 car trains more often."
4-car trains are especially a disaster on the weekends. Dwell times are endless as everybody at the ends of the platforms has to run to the train. And there is NO way to educate weekend customers because it's new people each weekend.
Sorry but that won't be possible. OPTO will NOT be useful onthe Brighton line, especially in Manhattan during the daytime on weekends. It has good ridership then people would have to run if a train is down there already but I believe there should be a seasonal weekend Brighton express.
"....I believe there should be a seasonal weekend Brighton express." I agree. Some months ago, David posted statistics for weekday and weekend fare collections at each of the Brighton stations. It appeared to me that Brighton Beach had a higher proportion of ridership on weekends as compared to weekdays than the others. I asked David in a post if there were seasonal statistics on a station-by-station basis and he replied that he did not have access to them. I suspect that the high weekend proportion at Brighton Beach is based on summer ridership.
They could of did that a long time ago. It would have been a great idea seeing the Brighton hass the most ridership to Coney Island out of the 4 lines [Culver 2nd, West End 3rd and Sea Beach last]. I think the summer weekend ridership is higher too although its moderate year round.
whether we like it or not, the brighton is being Equipped for opto service, look at ave H
What's at Avenue H that would lead one to believe Brighton is going OPTO?
David
There are CCTV cameras and monitors at AVE H. These cameras do not cover the entrire platform length but rather assist the conductor in seeing hard to see areas of the platform.
Atlantic Ave on the Q is also getting CCTV Camera assitance for the conductor
If the assistance is for the Conductor, and the Conductor is in the middle of the train, then the assistance would not be for an OPTO Train Operator, who, like all Train Operators in NYC, is in the front of the train.
David
Unless, of course, the stop marker for an OPTO train put the OPTO Train Operator at what would be the Conductor's position on a non-OPTO train. Is that the case here?
David
Huh? I don't see ANY evidence that would make the Q go OPTO.
Well lately to be honest there isnt any Midday 7 express anymore, as construction had led to expresses ending at or before 10am.
Once they do redo 74th st, and put in those new switches, that will be more G.O.'s.
Yeah I know, I said that in another post earlier.
The ONLY subway service I can accept any reductions two is the elimination of service to the edges of the city in the overnight hours, as we have discussed in earlier threads. But ONLY if the trains are replaced by buses that are even MORE frequent, and have automatic signal priority. That is, only if the total trip times can be LOWER rather than higher, with money still saved.
After the $2.00 fare, the subway will be covering its operating costs. I can see reducing bus service since the buses lose money, though at some point service becomes so infrequent that it is virtually worthless. Why cut service that is making money?
That's something else that's not going to happen. Some of the stations in the "fringe areas" have some of the highest ridership levels away from the Manhattan CBD (Main Street, Parsons/Archer, etc.). The people who use those stations will scream, and so will their elected officials.
I have to disagree first the 7 line is very crowded on the weekends, wiht the GO's on the 5 line with the signal situation, you need the 4 line plus during the baseball season, you have the Yankees, you need equipment for that, On the 7 line you have the Mets crowd, to deal with have you ever ride the 4 line on the weekend?Its always jam packed, I always thought this line could use more equipment, I would doubt if you would see service cuts on the east side.
Based on my entirely informal observations, the 4 is the most crowded line in the system on Sundays. Come to think of it, all IRT lines are pretty crowded on weekends. Weekend cuts should go to the B Division, which seems to have a lot more service than it needs.
I agree that a modest midday service reduction on the 7 is worth considering.
You're right. The 4 line is busy. The whole IRT is busy, which is why I can't wait to get to the B division. A division crews work too hard. And while we're on the topic of overcrowding, would you believe that over the last few weeks, I have been able to get a seat on every n/b E,F,and R train I've boarded during rush-hour? Things are much better for Queens riders, now that we have 4 trains instead of 3 connecting the Queens corridor to Manhattan.
But the 4 train gets down to 6 minute headways on Saturday afternoons. Add that to the 6 TPH on the 5 line, and you have 16 TPH on the Lexington Ave express. Is that necessary?
Given the actual crowding I've seen on the 4, yes, apparently it is necessary (unless what I've seen is atypical).
They should have even more TPH. Perhaps if they had been able to merge the T/O and Conductor titles, they could have split the trains and had half trains running OPTO twice as often when crowding is light. It's not just the crowding, it's the wait for the train, especially when you are changing and you have to change trains more than once.
I ride the 4 on mid-days from Downtown into Brooklyn. Most days I can't get a seat.
Sorry you have to stand for such great distances.
And who's going to pay to cut all those trains for weekend OPTO, and add them up again for the weekday service???
Sorry you have to stand for such great distances.
And who's going to pay to cut all those trains for weekend OPTO, and add them up again for the weekday service???
they could have split the trains and had half trains running OPTO twice as often when crowding is light.
I take it you're not a T/O. Are you sugestiong OPTO in shuttle form here or full line? Because you make no mention of shuttles so I'm seeing full line. Would you like to do that from 179th Street to Avenue X? Here's how it would go: Relay; for 30+ stops you have to: get up (if you choose to sit), turn around, open the doors, Announcements, close, turn around, pull train out.
Even if you have a bunch of smaller shuttles with better service and a bunch of trunk lines, First, you're not helping the customers as service on the trunk lines will not be as good so they've a long wait anyway, and now you've made them transfer and stand on a possibly cold or hot platform. You've possibly added an extra transfer they didn't have to make before. Also I can't see how a half-train and more service doesn't save much.
Also, think of the T/O's. Some lines like the M they're getting abused alreay. Some of those jobs are 12 trips OPTO... the same jobs were 12 trips with a C/R! The work programs were identical, just with the OPTO notation, which means they get very little recovery time.
Yeah they try to work all of us like dogs down here, then at the same time try to screw us on benefits and pay, and cutting conductors' jobs. Hell, for the new pick, all the A jobs midnights out of Lefferts Blvd. are now all OPTO to Euclid. If you think all the OPTO work now is something, just wait when the R-160s come online and they go ahead with their plans to make the "J" line OPTO on weekends. If you wanna see a service disaster, wait until they do this!! Unfortunately this is the way of TA's future :-( Soon there won't even be OPTO...there will be NPTO (No Person Train Operation) :-( :-p That's why I am working, right now, on getting out of NYCT.....I've seen the grass here, and it ain't that green, so time to move on. I tell anyone on here who is young enough, and can afford to make moves to start making moves now.
"just wait when the R-160s come online and they go ahead with their plans to make the "J" line OPTO on weekends. If you wanna see a service disaster, wait until they do this!!"
Why would that be a service disaster, provided they pick the right places to stop the trains and clearly mark them so that people know where to wait?
I understand it's harder on the T/O, but why is it harder on the public as long as the information is properly posted? (I realize NYCT could botch it from a service point of view, but it seems to me they could also do it right if they actually try).
"I agree that a modest midday service reduction on the 7 is worth considering."
Have you been on the 7 in middays lately?
Yes. I've never had any trouble at all finding a seat. Unless my experience is atypical (which is possible), there's room for a service reduction.
For me, a typical experience on the express towards Flushing during midday hours is to see standees, at least through 61st Street, if not Junction Boulevard. Cutting that service would spark a major political battle.
Apparently you found a seat on the #7 local, not the express.
I've never found the express to be more crowded than the local west (south) of Queensboro Plaza -- middays, I've always found seats in plentiful supply on both. (Closer to Flushing, of course the express is more crowded than the local, but peak crowds on both are closer to Manhattan.)
And if there are occasional standees, there's nothing wrong with that.
Wow! I can't even believe your talking about cutting switchman job at Utica. I know those old timers will love you if that happens. I think they tryed it before and it failed.
Those old-times sit around all day on weekends, and keep track of which T/O's have only 2 trips on the 4. And when those T/O's arrive at Utica, the switchmen sometimes refuse to relay those trains. They bitch and moan to the dispatcher and make sure the T/O does a relay.
Don't worry Dave, no one is cutting the penalty time on the 4 line anytime soon. I did the math. Even if you eliminate station switching at Utica, and cut three or four intervals on weekends, you still won't have enough T/O's to cover all those trips. I think I counted 136 intervals out of Woodlawn on Saturday, and only 55 T/O's.
I liked your idea about making all those jobs 2 trips. I know its not likely to happen so I will continue to stay away form the #4 Line unless I do pick a 2 tripper.
Don't worry Dave, no one is cutting the penalty time on the 4 line anytime soon. I did the math. Even if you eliminate station switching at Utica, and cut three or four intervals on weekends, you still won't have enough T/O's to cover all those trips. I think I counted 136 intervals out of Woodlawn on Saturday, and only 55 T/O's.
I almost forgot next pick Assignments on the #5 Line have been reportedly cut. The jobs are those Gap trains out of E 180 St during the week and Wkends everyone one does 3 trips and maybe a shuttle.
I hope I am wrong on this one!
It was bound to happen. I never understood why as many as 5 trains ran lite from 180 to BG between 3 and 530pm, when trains are desperately needed.
to become <5> trains to E 238 St and fill in the gap in WPR(and Dyre) service
You're talking about the n/b end. I'm talking about the s/b trip. Why can't those gap trains out of 180 run in service to BG, go around the loop, and continue to WP?
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy know you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy know you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
Couldn't the Bowling Green loop be treated like the adjacent South Ferry loop, with passengers allowed to remain on the train? That would eliminate the time-consuming discharge procedure.
Not really with those Rush Hours Bowling Green trains. I use to work one of those jobs. I was do at Bowling Green at 5:30PM but scheduled to leave N/B at 5:45PM. Now thats 15 Minutes in the loop. Also if there is a delay in service North of Bowling Green they don't let you out of the loop until they have a open space because its considered a Gap train. I spent up to 30 Minutes in the loop one evening with the train light now ass people to the mix not good at all.
Don't discharge. Just make announcements, and if passengers stay on, it's their fault.
Should FIVE trains run lite to BG, stranding thousands of passengers just because a few morons at BG won't get off the train?
Most want to go to Brooklyn anyway so your just picking them up and dropping them off. Let me tell you did you ever go Out of service at Bowling Green during the PA Rush Hour?? I did and those people don't want to get off the train. They take there time and argue before getting off the train. It took me 5 Minutes to move it out.
I noticed that the weekend when the TA had a GO on the "5" and was using R62s on the "5". The R62 ran along the Lexington Ave Exp., signed up as the "5", all 10 cars, both sides front and back. as well as Bowling Green as the southern terminus-all 10 cars, both sides. The conductor made announcements all along the route that this was a #5 to Bowling Green.
When that train arrived to Bowling Green, the conductor announced that this was the last stop. The people did not listen, nor budge. The conductor had to make the announcement 3x and start flashing the lights. When the passengers got the message, first, they refused to get off the train. Finally, when they got off the train, some of them went straight to the conductor and cursed him out. When he pointed to three of the rollsigns, they continued to curse him out anyway.
But if the destination signs say "Bowling Green" and the C/R is making announcements all along that the train will terminate at BG, then there should not be a problem. And you'd be surprised to see how many people get off at BG. I see those people from my position.
Now you should know some of these people don't read signs or listen to C/R Announcements. I also just to have the first evening train to Bowling Green the 19:53 DYR and those people always put up a fight with signs saying Bowling Green and my PA Announcements "This is a Bowling Green bound #5 Train".
The main reason for those light #5 trains to Bowling Green it for added Uptown Service.
soem people on redbirds could change some of the signs to read New Lots Avenue. I was on a #5 that had another destination, but stopped at Bowling Green
Thats a good point as well.
"Most want to go to Brooklyn anyway"
Whenever I take a 4/5 southbound in Manhattan large numbers of people get off at BB and Fulton, even if it's a Brooklyn bound train.
The evening rush needs more trains northbound than southbound. It makes sense to run some trains to Bowling Green.
How about: "Attention, this is Bowling Green, the last stop. The next stop is Bowling Green northbound." Give them 30 seconds, close the doors, and off the train goes.
let them ride though the loop!
We are not allowed to let them ride the loop at Bowling Green because the train can always go up 7 Ave and the other reason is the #5 spends 10 Minutes in the loop.
"other reason is the #5 spends 10 Minutes in the loop"
That would convince them not to do it again.
how long does the #6 stay in the City Hall loop?
Less then 2 Minutes.
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy now you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
They don't walk through and discharge the train, it's like City Hall Loop routine.
Those people refusing to get off the train will get off real quick after they have gone around the loop and back uptown a few times. They will learn!
some people want to go back uptown through the loop that is the whole purpose of staying on
The crew is suppose to check but most don't. However if something happens in the loop or complaint is made by a customer that they ended up at Chambers Street its on the crew.
Brooklyn Bridge is another story.
also some 5 trains seem to run lite between E 180 St and E 238 St around 10-10:30 am, one of those should be in service like before
"I almost forgot next pick Assignments on the #5 Line have been reportedly cut. The jobs are those Gap trains out of E 180 St during the week."
Also the #3 jobs to/from E.180St is gone as well. Hell, they dont even go to E.180St now, so it doesnt make a difference. They drop out at 96St-Bway and run lite to Lenox Yard.
Da Beastmaster
They do??? I saw a 3 train in the Bronx last Wednesday afternoon. I think it was carrying passengers.
what time was it, and what was the destination sign
It was during the afternoon rush, perhaps around 6. I was on a 5 going the other way and I didn't have a clear view of the train. All I can say is that it was an R-62A consist signed as a 3.
That sounds like a fill in for a delay on the 2 line. There are no scheduled #3 trains to the Bronx in the afternoons.
Da Beastmaster
they could also send a #5 to E 241 Street, redbird recommended(for strip map reasons)
The Redbirds are just about done on the #5 Line. BTW the #4 Line have just gotten 10 new cars of Redbirds from E 180 St.
That leaves a Max of 60 cars on the #5 Line but it think its more like 40 cars in service.
"BTW the #4 Line have just gotten 10 new cars of Redbirds from E 180 St."
I knew I wasnt seeing things when I saw 9160-61 on the 4 last night. I heard another E.180St to Mosholu transfer last night. IDK if it was for todays GO or what.........
Da Beastmaster
No, The #5 is running #4 Line equipment only.
they should keep some r-33s in 239 St yard and some r-62s as well add some variety to WPR
It must have been, or maybe it was one of those ultra-rare R-62A 2 trains (I may have misread the sign).
When was this change made, and why?
There may be none scheduled but at times, there is always the possibility of a 3 running to the Bronx b/c of a problem.
"There may be none scheduled but at times, there is always the possibility of a 3 running to the Bronx b/c of a problem."
As I stated in my previous post........
Da Beastmaster
Sounds like someone was working their favorite line again.
Come to think of it, you can do this:
On weekends, the 4 train will terminate at Atlantic Ave. All crews will get 8 hours pay. This eliminates the station switching jobs and all that relay time you lose at Utica.
Wow!!! You really thought about this, havent you. I agree to some extent that the extra trains are not needed in Bklyn. Maybe some of them can loop around the Green with the 5s. Just my $0.55.
Da Beastmaster
Eliminate the switching jobs and the "old timers" take yard jobs, the people picked out of the yard jobs go to the road and the people on the extra list stay there longer.
Reduce the number of TPH's between 11am and 5pm...No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p
Is the object to reduce service or to reduce costs?
The basic problem for reducing costs is that the use of split shifts is no longer widespread. Practically all operating personnel work a nominal 8 hour day during an 8 hour period. Peak demand periods are 6-10am and 4-8pm. Operating personnel arriving at 6am would leave at 6am work from 6am to 2pm. It takes two crews different jobs to handle the rush hours. One crew cannot handle both am and pm rush hours within an 8 hour period.
The question is what to do about this situation. Should operating personnel sit idle during the off-peak hours while still on duty and collecting full pay or should they operate trains?
NYCT has chosen the latter option. They have also reduced rush hour service levels to the bare minimum and sometimes below the bare minimum. They have done this because each rush hour train costs two extra crews. NYCT has increased non-rush hour service levels because the crews are already there. These are probably some the economic realities that motivate the schedule makers.
If the TWU were willing to go back to working 8 hours during a 12 hour period for 8 hours pay, then the economics would radically change. NYCT schedule makers would be better able to match crew assignments with customer demand. There could be more rush hour service and less off peak service. Both rush hour periods would be handled by one crew and the 10am-4pm off peak service would be handled by another crew. This could result in a reduction in the number of operating personnel required.
As someone who WORKED those kind of hours 30 years ago, I can tell you that at the age of 19, I could handle it. One of the BIGGEST problems the TA had was that us "splitters" often didn't shape up well for the PM rush tour. There were a LOT of mistakes, folks not showing up for their shift on time or worse, showing up DRUNK ... if the TA were willing to take what they got, not require shizzing in the bottle and so many of the de rigeur of the day, perhaps. But you really DON'T want your train crews doing splits. It really screws people up even if they DON'T drink and DO show up on time.
And I had it worse than many - I lived at 205th on the D and reported to Stillwell. So I didn't have the option of going home, catching up on some sleep and going back given my location. So I ended up, bored out of my TEAT at Coney Island. Agggh. I wouldn't wish that on anybody given the realities of the TA. And it's gotten worse since. Nice idea, won't fly in reality. That's why TWU and NYCTA pulled the plug on THAT concept. Wasn't a "union power" thing at all. It was done for the safety and service reliability of the "customers" ...
You misunderstood the point of my post. I'm not advocating a return to split shifts. My point was explaining why a reduction in off peak service will no longer result in any cost savings.
That is even more why moving towards ATO is such a big cost saver to the TA. Personel costs and dealing with the needs of a human workforce is a touch challenge. One that technology has solved.
Having 4 hours in the middle of a day stranded away from home is a tough on a person. It would be easier to work 12 hours straight then to do 4 on 4 off 4 on
Would it be possible for NYCT to institute some work weeks consisting of 2 12 hour weekend shifts and 3 4-hour rush hour shifts?
That would create a certain number of jobs that only work when the demand is there.
Would it be possible for NYCT to institute some work weeks consisting of 2 12 hour weekend shifts and 3 4-hour rush hour shifts?
Generally, the fair hours laws are written so that any time over 8 hours in a day must be time and a half. Flex time arrangements, with 4 or 3 day weeks are negotiatied between management and labor. There is also a prohibition of working more than 12 hours in a day.
The object is to save money, while providing adequate levels of service. It's difficult for me to see how flex time schedules that are designed for providing uniform staffing 24/7 could save money for the non-uniform staffing levels required for subway service.
There is also a prohibition of working more than 12 hours in a day.
Maybe somewhere else, but not at NYCT. Our limit is 16 consecutive hours.
What are you thinking? The 4 is a VERY busy line 7 days a week all day, probably some hours of the night too. You can't cut weekend service, its like rush hour in the weekend mornings [see Atlantic Av]. Plus it runs express in Brooklyn so it doesn't tie up 2 & 3 service and all the current service IS needed in the Bronx and on the Lex Av line in Manhattan.
And for the 7 that's a no-no b/c it has heavy ridership as well 7 days a week. Then when you have baseball games on BOTH lines in the spring & summer you need the extra equipment. The 7 express ending at 9pm isn't so bad but if it's warranted after that time, then it [the express] should be every third train after 8:30pm.
"No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p and all 7 trains go local n/b."
That will happen over the collective dead bodies of every elected official and community group who represents the 7 line's service area, including the Assembly's member on the Capital Project Review Board.
You haven't rode the #4 train on a Saturday and you want to cut Saturday service? It runs every 10 minutes until 12 Noon, 7 sinutes from Noon to 7 PM and is impossibly crowded by the time the train reaches 125th st from the Bronx. And on BOTH lines, you have baseball games on weekends (and some weeday games too at Shea!). You are reversing the trend of increased ridership since the inception of free transfers on Metrocard. I'd can only justify ending #7 express service an hour earlier at 9 PM, there are plenty of empty seats at that time, but that does not mean ending midday service.
Why would you cut 2 heavily used lines. Here's what I would do:
- Reduce the M to Chambers St only midday hours
- Terminate ALL G service north of Court Sq.
- Restore the A to a 6 TPH headway middays
Those cuts wouldn't yeild as much savings, but would be far less painful.
Again...
The M train service between Chambers Street and 9th Avenue during weekday middays is funded for by the State of New York. The MTA is given all the funds to operate that portion of the route by NY State and does not pay any expenses to operate it. Service will be operated as long as funding permits. If funding were discontinued, the MTA would probably cut the service at that time, though they may choose to continue operating it with their own capital.
I didn't know that.
The M train service between Chambers Street and 9th Avenue during weekday middays is funded for by the State of New York. The MTA is given all the funds to operate that portion of the route by NY State and does not pay any expenses to operate it.
Why?
To satisfy those in Chinatown when the MannyB Flip Flop occurred. The MTA was going to leave the M as it was. About 2 days before the service change, the MTA got the funding from Albany to run the M to 9th Avenue.
Since the state also faces a huge deficit, this funding should be eliminated. It serves no useful purpose. As I predicted, Chinese residents in Brooklyn have either adjusted to using Canal St. or they use the quicker Q/W to Canal St for the J/M to the Bowery option.
I agree. The M to Brooklyn middays is always empty. They need to cut that back, it is a waste. So is the Grand st shuttle bus, I never see more than 3 people on there.
The M to Brooklyn seems to run every 24 minutes most of the time. I doubt anyone wants to wait that long. Perhaps when they did the single tracking over the WillyB, if they ran Ms from 9th to the Bowery. After stopping at Bowery NB, they could have switched to the SB express track, stopped at the island platform at Essex, relayed there, and then gone back to Brooklyn, providing a 12 minute headway between Essex and 9th.
When trains are single-tracking over the Williamsburg Bridge, they run at 24-minute headways over the entire M line. There's certainly no need to run additional service south of Essex.
Normally, the M runs much more frequently -- 10-minute midday headways, I believe. All of those trains run to 9th Avenue.
But my point is no one in Chinatown wants to take the M since it comes every 24 minutes alot of the time middays. If it ran more often, perhaps people would take it instead of the W.
What David Greenberger (yes, I got it right this time :-)) was saying is that the only time the M runs on a 24-minute headway is when there is a single-track operation on the Williamsburg Bridge. That does NOT happen every day. The rest of the time, the line is indeed on a 10-minute headway middays.
David
And, to follow up, the single-track GO seems to last quite a while (a month or two, at least) when it comes up, but it doesn't come up very often. I haven't checked my records but I don't think we've had that GO since late summer or early fall. IINM, it's usually put into place by NYCDOT request to accomodate work on one of the bridge's inner roadways.
I understand that. I also understand that it does not happen every day but it happens with enough regularity so the people who might use the M will go over to Broadway.
I understand that. I also understand that it does not happen every day but it happens with enough regularity so the people who might use the M will go over to Broadway.
Single tracking does not happen all that often.
As for the M's regular headways, I don't feel they are horrible. They may not be as good as some other lines (in fact worse than many lines), but I used to be a regular user of the M on the northern end, which during the day has the exact same headways as the southern end of the line. It never seemed like an unbearable wait under normal operating circumstances.
"As for the M's regular headways, I don't feel they are horrible."
Other than the A train beyond where it splits, and late nights, every line pretty much has at least 6 scheduled trains per hour.
The catch is: do those trains actually arrive at regularly spaced intervals? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. All the average person needs is a few bad experiences to get soured on a train and assume they never know when it will come.
Ten years ago, I got seriously soured on the N/R in Manhattan. Even though they were scheduled for at least 12 if not more trains per hour all times except late nights, I felt they would come in bunches: none for 12 minutes, then 3 in a row. Lately I've been much happier with them.
Yes, the state has the ability to cut this funding at any time. I figure it is one of the first things to be cut, but I don't know how many other things the state funds that might be less important.
1:Same as current service, without any skip stop
2:Same as current, local on weekends
3:same as current, Limited weekend service only, all service to utica
4:Same as current, local on weekends, all service to new lots
5:same as current Limited weekend service to South ferry
6:same, less pelham express
7:same, Rush hour exprewss only
9:cut
A:Local on weekends, same otherwise
B:205th to 34th ALL TIMES
C:no weekend service
D:cut
"A:Local on weekends, same otherwise "
Ever ride the A on a weekend? I do sometimes and it's packed. No way could they cut the C and run the A as a substitute. Those A trains are packed.
You service plan will never make it out the door. No one wants to ride the A and B as locals on weekends if they need to go to Upper Manhattan and the Bronx. And how you have to GALL to cut the D line out completely?
I agree with you. I didnt start the thread.
The CPW Local takes 2 minutes longer than the express
Ever ride the A on a weekend? I do sometimes and it's packed.
Even on weekday after 4:30PM, You can squished on that that lines.
Not good idea to cut C off and have A replaced those stops. No one wants ride a long trip between Queens and Manhattan.
4 car OPTO could be utilize on the Q, W, N, R after 9pm(southern terminal CI/95th street) and most of the day on the weekend if the MTA would reduce the headway on these trains. The cost savings would be astronomical. Full 8 car service can begin to be restored at starting at brighton beach at around 6 am.
I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO
The increased headway more then makes up for the increase in dwell time. This is a great way to enhance service while significantly reducing abor costs, wear and tear on equiptment.
4 car OPTO could be utilize on the Q, W, after 9 N, R after 7pm(southern terminal CI/95th street) and most of the day on the weekend if the MTA would reduce the headway on these trains by adding one or two addtioal trains per hour. The cost savings would be astronomical.
Full 8 car service can begin to be restored at starting at the southern terminals(Q,W,N), northern R at around 6 am.
I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO
The reduced headway more then makes up for the increase in dwell time. This is a great way to enhance service while significantly reducing abor costs, wear and tear on equiptment. Many people avoid the subway at night and on weekends due to the increased wait time especially if they need to transer to another line
"I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO"
The peak direction of riding on the Brighton Line in the evening/at night is southbound, not northbound, which would explain the light northbound loads "voiceofreason" cited. That said, however, I agree with the general premise: OPTO with short trains running somewhat more often than the full-length trains run now (though not twice as often) would save money while reducing waiting times at certain times of the day on certain routes (I don't think the Q is one of them, except maybe overnight).
David
"That said, however, I agree with the general premise: OPTO with short trains running somewhat more often than the full-length trains run now"
Well, technically, I have to agree with those here (who work for Transit) when they talk about the increased dwell times due to people having to run from both ends of the platform to get to the train. This is a big time waster.
Plus, it just wouldn't seem right. Dinky lil' four car trains? We'll should leave that for those "other" towns, such as Boston, Chicago and L.A.
There is indeed a dwell time penalty when running OPTO, because the Train Operator waits while people run for the train after waiting in the wrong spot or arriving at the top/bottom of the stairs and seeing the train several feet down/up the platform. However, that's not a reason to forego the monetary savings while at the same time increasing service frequency.
As to 'dinky little four-car trains,' NYCT and its predecessors adjusted train lengths by time of day and day of week for years...in New York City, the Big Apple, the Greatest City in the World. People would just have to get used to it again...are we saying they're that stupid?
David
The promise of increased headways seems unlikely. And there should always be a little slack in the seating capacity of New York City transit vehicles. I remember back in the 80's when there was some austerity cutback in service. Used to work on W. 54th Steet and 11th Ave. Got out of work at around one a.m. I'd walk to C.C. and take a D back to Kings Hwy. After midnight (or maybe a little earlier) the trains were four car in length. Sorry, but it made for an
uncomfortable ride. The train was jammed by the time we got to 34th Street.
A little later they lifted the austerity and it was like, whew! You could sit down for that long ride, even stretch a little. That's a quality of life issue as much as a fiscal one. At one thirty in the morning, on a subway train in the middle of Manhattan, you shouldn't have to stand all the way to the nether regions of Brooklyn.
I remember short overnight D trains as well. Yes, they were crowded, but I don't remember them being crowded all the way down the line (I, too, was getting off at Kings Highway at the time). Remember, though, that that was on a 20-minute overnight headway. If necessary, the schedule for whatever serves the Brighton Line by the time this happens (if it ever does) can be designed so the end of the day and the beginning of the next day overlap, so there can be a 10-minute headway for a while and a 20-minute headway only in the heart of the overnight period.
David
"There is indeed a dwell time penalty when running OPTO"
I see we have 2 separate "modernization" themes going on recently.
1. With more HEETs, lesser entrances can be open 24/7. This results in more platforms where people can enter from both ends even in the off hours. IND stations especially tend to have entrances at both ends.
2. With OPTO on 300' trains, labor costs can be reduced while service is improved.
The trouble is that 300' trains are a total disaster when used at stations with entrances at both ends. A 300' train leaves 150' of unused platform at each end (or more on one end and less on the other). It takes 25 seconds to walk 150' at a brisk pace.
On weekends you cannot expect customers to be regulars. The only way I can see this working is if NYCT makes extremely clear and correct permanent signs (e.g., "The back of the train ends here on Saturdays and Sundays" and "Trains do not stop here Saturdays and Sundays. Please move further back.")
What's your proposal for training New Yorkers to move to the middle of the platform when the entrances are at the ends?
4-car operation results in huge dwell times.
What purpose would this serve aside from making a lot of customers and their elected officials incredibly angry?
it would save money by cutting un needed service
The point is that they feel that it's needed.
And what about the rest of the lines, you still have the E,F,G,J/Z,L,M,N,Q,R,V & W although I don't think any of these lines need or could have a cut; especially weekends. My Q doesn't need a cut b/c the 8 minute headway is justified. Let me throw in my 2 cents for the IRT.
1/9: Skip stop could go
2: Can't do that plus you have more than enough 1's unless you're reducing that on weekends too
3: Leave it as is
4: It runs express in Brooklyn b/c of the 2 & 3
5: That's not so bad
6: Trains will back up like crazy
7: Same as 6
2- there are NOT enough 1s, not even on weekdays
4- would be switched with the 3 at all times
6/7- there would be no backups
2- there are NOT enough 1s, not even on weekdays
4- would be switched with the 3 at all times
6/7- there would be no backups
Hey, I voted for the two-dollar fare. Therefore, I'm not in favor of any reductions in the frequency of trains or the amount of maintenance and cleaning. I'm prepared to live with one manned token booth per station. No service cuts on the trains.
Too much crossing trains in front of each other if you swap the 4 and 3. My idea was this:
Weekends
1 and 3 operate local to South Ferry from 242nd and 148th respectively
2 operates express from 241st to Flatbush
4 operates to New Lots when 3 terminates at South Ferry
Good Idea.
Correction: switch 6 and 7
E,L,M,N,V,W- No changes
F-local-late nights
G-all times same as weekdays
J-No Z, Peak directions runs express
Q-night/weekend service runs via tunnel
R-All times trains run from 71st to 95th local
42S-No weekend service
Z-Cut
Why did the TA reopen the World Trade Center station on the E in January 2002, way before cleanup was complete? NYCT should have waited until the summer (May or June) when the cleanup was over before reopening the E because if the cleanup was still underway (when the station was opened), riders might have exposed to debris, dust and wreckage from the cleanup process. Also, during cleanup, foot traffic in the WTC area was restricted.
The WTC station is near the former site of 5 WTC, which was still standing after the collapse. Also, most of the REALLY heavy debris was removed by that time, making it safe to open the station.
I remembered that 5 WTC suffered some heavy damage to the upper floors, but the lower floors (includind Borders Bookstore were inctact & completely untouched). Crews took it down in 12/2001.
There was no significant health risk to being in the area of the WTC Chambers Street station at the time that it opened. The fact that crews took down one building near it is not really relevant.
The benefits of reopening access routes (especially ones not requiring automobiles) far outweigh the risks, which are negligible. In fact, the more people arriving by train, the easier it is for construction crews to continue their vital work.
This situation is no different than when the WTC was put up in the early 1970's. And it was also important for the subway to reopen and offer a sense of normality, transportation-wise. It was a smart move.
Why worry now about something that happened 13 months ago that created no problems for anyone? Allowing customers to ride the E all the way to Chambers/WTC gave addtional transit access to the area - and symbolically showed that New York was recovering from the 9/11 tragedy as soon as possible. And to someone like me who worked at WTC years ago and rode the E/A/CC regularly to/from my job, it was good to know that our subways are so well constructed that the station received no major structural damage.
Besides, even if the exit at the south end of the platform still had to be closed (and it didn't), passengers on the E could have still used the exits at the north end and the transfer to the 1/2 without interfering with any work at the site.
Exactly. I personally thought they should have opened it much earlier, sealing off the south entrance and letting people enter only from the north.
Is this possible? Doing this would mean faster service the the East River tunnels and adding more track capacity w/o major construction.
Not possible. The Montauk Branch tracks are south of the Main Line and Harold Interlocking and could not hook into the tunnels without major, disruptive, and basically useless civil engineering work. The East River tunnels are used to absolute capacity and allowing trains from the Montauk to the East River Tunnels does nothing in terms of adding additional trains into Penn. Would just creatre another choke point east of the tunnels. Rail links that look easy on a street map are usually in reality very difficult to construct.
And third rail and upgraded signalling would be needed on the Montauk Branch - another high cost that really adds nothing.
So as they say in New York, FUGGETABOUTIT!
It's already possible to go from the Montauk branch to the East River tunnels right now. Just use the Montauk cutoff and do a reverse move :-)
Speaking of weird moves - was it ever possible for the LIRR to route a train from Penn to Valley Stream via Far Rockaway? I.e., was the current far Rockaway LIRR station and the current Far Rockaway NYCTA station ever connected by track? It kinda loolks it - the two are close to each other (ironically, the obsticle is a parking lot and a supermarket / strip mall), the age of the construction sugests it (the market is 60'sish, the buildings on the sides aren't, and let's face it, the Far Rock station is in the middle of nowhere.
BTW, the M-7s are a regular occurance on the line at noon towards Far Rock. i see them every day. Sometimes they accelerate rather fast. I've also noticed the inverter noise seems to have quieted somewhat in recent days, so I wonder if they're still playing with software... You used to be able to hear them pulling out and 1/2way to Inwood no problem, now you can't.
BTW,the horn is the same as the M-3s, which sucks cause I like the M-1's better, but at least it's not a stupid 5 horn thing that everyone else uses...
They were connected until the subway takeover in 1956. In fact, the NYCTA station was built in 1958, while the LIRR station was the original station.
The original LIRR station was between the current one and where the subway station is. The shopping center across Mott Avenue from the subway station uses the land once used by the railroad station and a small holding yard (the book "The Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs" has a picture of it).
A side question: the office building that adjoins the Mott Avenue subway station greatly resembles the LIRR Jamaica station. Did the LIRR build that as well?
Phil, that was a normal run, having trains coming down the old Rockaway Branch and returning through the present day Far Rockaway Branch and vice versa. There were trains that went to Rockaway Park through the Five Towns. There was also a seperate route to Far Rockaway that bypassed Valley Stream called the Cederhurst Cutoff. There were also trains that went to Rockaway on the LIRR that came from Lower Manhattan via the Williamsburg and the Bway/Jamaica El and connected to the Atlantic LIRR line via a flyover connection in East NY. MP41's were used for that route.
Phil, you MUST get the book, Change at Ozone Park by Herbert George which tells you everything you've ever wanted to know about the Rockaway Branch but were afraid to ask!!
Sorry,not possible. No train is ever going to do a reverse move in the middle of Harold or F Interlockings. Imagine the delays! And there's no third rail on the Montauk Branch - so impossible for MU trains to use the Montauk and then go into the tunnels if it were even physically possible.
I think he means connecting the Montauk Branch to the new 63 St LIRR tunnel that's going to Grand Central. It would still involve a considerable amount of new construction.
Actually with some mainline traffic moving to the 63rd St Tunnel, there would be room (in the scheme of tunnel capacity) to put some Montauk Branch trains into NYP via the existing tunnels. But the only reason for doing this is that if the existing LIRR mainline did in fact need more capacity.
Whereas my plan to run trains to WTC would be borrowing new traffic presently carried on the Atlantic Branch.
Elias
well atlantic is going over a MASSIVE destruct-renovate-rebuid project, which may be one of the most important, as it connects the entire south brooklyn IRT lines (2,3,4,5) and entire BMT lines(Q,,M,N,R,W) to eacch other and the LIRR will not be leaving putting the billions down the drain, besides do you reallt think the MTA will build a new line when they already have an super established one with no NiMBY opposition just to give people 15 minutes less travel time to their lower manhattan jobs, and doing this while leaving flatbush open will leave less trains to all four terminals (proposed), how many passengers can you possibly come up with , say on the Babylon line which on avg 5 tph on the morning peak per station group, with one tph going to flatbush, and 4 to penn on avg, which are packed to capacity, but then if you are working on the east side, you have to make that 1 tph, and if you miss it, you must switch trains, (a no-no for people on the babylon line) or wait an hour for the next
and this is the babylon, which has the most tph, what abt the far rock or west hempstead....?
maybe im overdoing it a litte....but you get my point why it is not possible physically, not because of TA stupidity
1. No third rail would be needed with today's new cars
2. East Side Access will increase capacity into Manhattan
Grade crossings east of Fresh Pond would limit capacity. NIMBYism would also be a factor. If you're gonna spend $500 million on ESA, why not connect Montaulk to the mainline. I've seen track maps of the area. It's not THAT hard.
The Montauk branch needs a lot of work before it can be put into high capacity service.
As everybody here already knows, I'd use that line to virtually replace the Atlantic Avenue line to Flatbush! That is I'd build a new tunnel but aim it south so that it strikes Manhattan at Avenue C, and then follow that around to the World Trade Center.
Doing this however requires a total rebuild of the entire Montauk line.
It would need to be elevated, double tracked, electrified, and sound-proofed. The NIMBYs can be damned, the LIRR already owns and uses that ROW, and it is FAIR GAME for any improvements that the Railroad may require.
Elias
Doing this however requires a total rebuild of the entire Montauk line.
It would need to be elevated, double tracked, electrified, and sound-proofed. The NIMBYs can be damned, the LIRR already owns and uses that ROW, and it is FAIR GAME for any improvements that the Railroad may require.
Several grade crossings in Middle Village and Maspeth would have to go. The line east of Fresh Pond is already subway ready, sans signals and third rails. The real problem is in how the new line would interconnect with the Bushwich and Bay Ridge LIRR lines. Currently FRA regulations would prohibit freight trains and subway service sharing the same tracks.
Several grade crossings in Middle Village and Maspeth would have to go. The line east of Fresh Pond is already subway ready, sans signals and third rails. The real problem is in how the new line would interconnect with the Bushwich and Bay Ridge LIRR lines. Currently FRA regulations would prohibit freight trains and subway service sharing the same tracks.
We were not speaking of using this line as a subway line, but as an LIRR line. This is no problem.
Elias
I was responding to a post where conversion to a subway line was proposed.
I'd much rather see the Lower Montauk converted to subway, connected to one of the three B-division Manhattan-Queens tunnels (preferably 53rd since it's the closest) at the west end and connected to a new section of tunnel under Hillside which would connect to the Hillside Express tracks, thus enabling an extension out to the end of the city without adding to the Queens Blvd. mess. Perhaps it would also entail a connection to the Jamaica line.
:-) Andrew
You could sell tickets to the hearings about putting a subway through Forest Park. Would be like the Roman Coliseum.
The same people who opposed the Montauk Options of the Queens Subway Option Study 20 years ago are still around, and would behave in the same fashion to a similar proposal today.
Does the re-activation or overhaul of an existing ROW warrant the same kind of community approval a new subway would? I can't understand why those living near an existing rail line can complain about new service. The tracks were there when you bought your house.
Sure, they can complain, it *is* their right to do so. OTOH, the MTA need not listen to them, the LIRR owns the ROW, they run trains on the ROW, and they are free to upgrade the ROW.
Nobody held any hearings when the elevated the ROW through Merrick, they just did it. And let me tell you, even though I miss ground level platforms and the old grey passenger cars with their steps, the community is much better for the improvement. It actually opened up the downtown area rather than walling it off as others had feared. We used to kill off one pedestrian a month on those grade crossings, now it is safe, fast, and quiet.
And if they were to follow my proposal to route this line to WTC via Avenue C, there would be no intermediate stops, just an express run from Jamaica to WTC, so the line would have little or no impact on the neighborhood.
Elias
I don't live in the area--I just lived through the whole political process. The work that would probably be needed for the ROW (land acquisition, environmental impact, etc.) would probably be of a scope that a pretty significant outreach and input process would be needed (case in point: what's going on now for the Sunnyside Yards station).
Been proposed. Killed by the NIMBY dragon every time. Glendale and Maspeth don't want a conduit for brown people to move into their precious neighborhoods.
Been proposed. Killed by the NIMBY dragon every time. Glendale and Maspeth don't want a conduit for brown people to move into their precious neighborhoods.
Both of them have ceased to be all-white neighborhoods.
The old timers are still there, but the demographics are starting to change. Especially in Maspeth.
So...for the time being don't build any stations in those neighborhoods. Eastern Queens commuters will enjoy the "super express" effect. Perhaps in the future when some of the population joins the great NIMBY in the sky, they canm add a station or two in the area.
:-) Andrew
Perhaps in the future when some of the population joins the great NIMBY in the sky, they canm add a station or two in the area.
Somehow, I suspect - or at least hope - that the hardcore NIMBY types don't end up in the sky.
They can all go to subway hell and share a room with Moses and Hylan.
are you suggesting we go kill some NIMBYs for fun..?
That would be a fun Shoot-em-up Computer Game - 10 points for every NIMBY shot, 20 points if they're elderly, female and handbag-waving!
The Montauk Division Line to LIC would be better off converted to subway operations. If I recall, only two trains run here per weekday to LIC, but don't quote me on this. I haven't read the City Terminal Zone timetable for a few years now. Traffic for LIC can be re-routed via the Main Line and switched at Hunters Point for LIC. But from the looks of things, the line east of the Pulaski Bridge reminds me of Metro-North's Beacon Line. Barely used. Unless this line has frequent freight traffic rolling along, the line should be abandoned, converted to subway by means of steel or concrete el or open cut.
Sometimes, the NIMBY population has to realize that improvements to our transportation network is neccesary. And the neighborhoods that stretch of railroad runs through are in a bad need of a subway line. NIMBYS in Glendale and other communities along the ROW need to wake up and smell the coffee. So does the MTA. That ROW can provide good connections with current subway lines, and possibly interconnect and co-exist with them. While I would prefer it to be an IRT line, the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.).
>>>While I would prefer it to be an IRT line, the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.). <<<<
Hate to burst you bubble.
There will never be another IRT line built. It's just not fesable.
"the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.)"
I'd nominate an eastern division line, such as a new branch off of the L (a branch of the Montauk goes right by the L in Williamsburg). The chances are long, so a plan with a minimal cost would be the best shot. Not much around the western section of the Montauk anyway.
The Montauk Division Line to LIC would be better off converted to subway operations. If I recall, only two trains run here per weekday to LIC, but don't quote me on this. I haven't read the City Terminal Zone timetable for a few years now.
DOn't forget however, that the line is still VERY much used for freight. It is a major part of the NYA, former LIRR freight operations. Any upgrade to subway for the Montauk branch would have to allow the continued use of it for frieght traffic. A third track would be necessary for any converison to be possible. Since FRA regulations bar the mixed track use between regular rail use, and subway use. The third track would be exclusively for frieght and LIRR deadhead or LIC moves, while the other two tracks exclusively for subway.
The only CAF cars that were on the Orange line for awhile was a 4 car train set, but last night while I was at McPherson Square waiting to come home, saw a 6 car set heading towards New Carrollton. Not sure how many others are on the Orange. Also, they have been spotted on the Blue Line here and there. It seems that there are quite a few more CAF's finally accepted and running as I saw 5104/5105 a couple of weeks ago on the Green Line. I had only seen up to the 5070's up until then.
And I saw a CAF train on the Yellow Line last Wednesday. I think every line has them except Red.
Cool, they're all over the place now!
WMATA, just WHERE did you take that picture? Sidewall Platforms... I'm guessing Crystal City or Pentagon City, and not looking much brighter than the last time I was there. (No offense, don't get me wrong, I LOVE DC and their system, but they've got a problem of dim lighting.) And yes, I'm back!
And furthermore, why does Metro have a problem discerning orange, light green (the color of the Rohr/Breda destination signs) and yellow? They don't actually bother trying to make a definite yellow color stripe on the display for yellow, which is sad, considering they went to all the trouble for Red, Orange, Green, and Blue.
BTW, do the Orange trains have a darker/lighter/different color stripe than the rest of the text in a CAF dest. sign? This seems like a case where yet again, the standard sign color could be also used for the line color for one route (light green/yellow in a Rohr/Breda's case, orange in this case). But, if they use the default orange CAF sign color for both the Yellow AND Orange Line train signs... some people will get confused.
Red is the last to see CAF cars... why am I not surprised? I figured, if anything, Red would have been THIRD since Green was first, and Yellow uses most of Green's tracks... but then again, after a possible stint in Alexandria, one may end up at Addison Road or Franconia-Springfield... then from there to Vienna... so Red WOULD logically be last. But I figured at least one train would have been routed through the old Commuter Shortcut at some point, stored overnight in Shady Grove or Brentwood Yard, and pulled out in Red revenue service LONG before they started sending them to the Blue Line.
Took it at L'Enfant Plaza. The lighting there is not as good as at the other transfer stations IMO.
I haven't seen seen CAF cars on lines other than Green and Yellow. My guess is that it is darker. On the flip dot signs on the Bredas and Rohrs, it isn't that easy to make differences between those colors. What I want to know is what will they do when the "White Line" comes into existance. The back of the green metal sign for the front of the train is all white with the word WHITE across the center in black letters.
Red Line is getting its 42 CAF cars last because it already has all 6 car trains rush hours. When the CAFs all come in, all trains should be 6 cars during rush hour. The Green Line is getting the bulk of the order. Orange gets somethign close to 2 trains, blue and yellow get about 10 cars each, snd red has 42. Green gets the rest but I am not remembering the exact numbers except for Red.
I take it they plan on sticking CAF cars on Blue/Yellow trains during low ridership periods. 10 cars each? That translates, in my guess, to two 4-car sets for each line, and an additional 2-car set for each. That also explains why BLUE and Yellow as opposed to Green an Yellow, I think Green gets more riders than blue overall (besides, Green just had an expansion 2 years ago, so it gets the royal car treatment, I guess.)
Only 2 CAF trains for Orange? That must be where the bulk of the Rohr cars are going, unless they have plans on ANOTHER addition to the fleet. The Bredas make up the majority of the car fleet, am I correct?
Of course, regarding the actual assignment of the cars, they can easily get sent elsewhere if WMATA feels like it. Green may have the bulk of the order, and Red about second place NOW... but Green shares Yellow, which shares with Blue, which connects to Orange...you see where I'm going with this? Red is likely to be the only batch of CAF cars not swapped around the system at some point or another. A train stored in Alexandria (if they do overnight storage there) could have entered from Yellow service... and be assigned to Blue the next morning. I will say, however that Orange is less likely to see much mixing, as it is quite rare that Blue consists get sent to New Carrollton or West Falls Church for storage.
L'Enfant Plaza? That's the LAST place I'd have guessed (and yes, I remember the station's design... I couldn't see evidence of the crossway is all).
I take it they plan on sticking CAF cars on Blue/Yellow trains during low ridership periods. 10 cars each? That translates, in my
guess, to two 4-car sets for each line, and an additional 2-car set for each. That also explains why BLUE and Yellow as
opposed to Green an Yellow, I think Green gets more riders than blue overall (besides, Green just had an expansion 2 years
ago, so it gets the royal car treatment, I guess.)
Essnetnailly, yes. Green got the new cars because it needed them, although in theory, they could have all gone elsewhere and the displaced cars could have been sent to Green to provide for the extension.
Only 2 CAF trains for Orange? That must be where the bulk of the Rohr cars are going, unless they have plans on ANOTHER
addition to the fleet. The Bredas make up the majority of the car fleet, am I correct?
Lately, I seem to be finding Rohrs on the Red Line more so than Blue/Orange. The hardest place to find them is Green/Yellow. Bredas do make the majority. The CAFs will allow for the 2000 and 300 Series Bredas to be rehabbed, and some have already been sent to Hornell for this rehab.
Of course, regarding the actual assignment of the cars, they can easily get sent elsewhere if WMATA feels like it. Green may
have the bulk of the order, and Red about second place NOW... but Green shares Yellow, which shares with Blue, which
connects to Orange...you see where I'm going with this? Red is likely to be the only batch of CAF cars not swapped around the
system at some point or another. A train stored in Alexandria (if they do overnight storage there) could have entered from
Yellow service... and be assigned to Blue the next morning. I will say, however that Orange is less likely to see much mixing, as
it is quite rare that Blue consists get sent to New Carrollton or West Falls Church for storage.
I see where you are going with that. I don't ride the other lines as much as Red so I don't see what goes on there as much. I did see 1234/1235 and 1236/1237 again. I have been seeing alot of those cars lately. I do believe additional training is required to operate the CAF cars, so they can't be sent just anywhere.
L'Enfant Plaza? That's the LAST place I'd have guessed (and yes, I remember the station's design... I couldn't see evidence of
the crossway is all).
I haven't been down into VA since November. I was pretty far up the platform and not near where the vaults cross. I was photographing the 5th car of a 6th car train. You can see an escalator for the exit that leads to 7th and D SW in the upper right of the picture.
This morning at around 10:40, I looked outside my apt. window and saw to my amazement, the new M-7 train heading past the Bayside train station towards the city. Does this mean we'll finally get to ride the M-7 sometime soon?
Trying to catch a 1 train at 116th Street this afternoon, a woman stuck her newspaper between the doors.
She missed the train and lost a piece of the newspaper, which was still wedged into one of the rubber thingies when I got off a few stops later.
If she had put her arm in there she would have been dragged.
Only if her arm was exceptionally thin.
People have been dragged with their arms in the doors. They don't have to have to be Twiggy.
Trying to catch a 1 train at 116th Street this afternoon, a woman stuck her newspaper between the doors.
She missed the train and lost a piece of the newspaper, which was still wedged into one of the rubber thingies when I got off a few stops later.
Would've been even funnier if she'd stuck an envelope containing important business or financial papers into the door.
Or her wallet :). Yes, it has happened.
Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them? All I got to say is, GOOD FOR HER!!!! Maybe she learn next time. When the doors are closing, let them be. There is always another train on the way.
Da Beastmaster
Why not just put the entire body between the doors. The door then cannot shut.
Not enough manual dexterity and physical cunning to do so perhaps? :P...or maybe they're just stoooooopeed.
Isn't that nice and considerate of the other thousand people on the train who got in the doors while they were wide open.
Then you get pulled out by a Transit Officer, and he writes you a $100 ticket for obstruction.
>>> Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them? <<<
Because that's the way it works in the other mass people mover — elevators!!
Tom
Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them?
More people probably have more experience with elevator doors than subway doors.
Elias
I think they ought to just put razor blades on the door edges.
Nothing will get dragged....and people will learn in VERY short time you DON'T hold the damn doors!!!!
I like that idea.
Nice, and they will never flip you the bird for closing the doors either.
You know, the idea that "there is always another train on the way" is fine from a detatched point of view.
But, in reality, in the moment, you will find that every door-holder has some personal horror story of having been very late for some important thing, because of a very long wait for the next train after having just missed one.
Weird delays can happen on occasion, of course; but what you must realize is that people get, in some sense, "traumatized" by these events, and their behavior gets formed by this experience. From then on, the sight of doors closing conjures up to these people the frustrating memory of that long wait on the platform which made them so embarassingly late for that important dinner date, interview, whatever. And thus is born a door-holder.
Even on the wonderful A train (which I will say is the best, most reliable line, and which has served me well for the past 15 years), I have, on occasion, experienced 30-minute waits in the morning when the normal wait is less than ten minutes. Rest assured that, on each of those days, several new door-holders were created.
Better to save your anger for those idiots who think they have purchased a "reserved" spot near the door, and refuse to move in or out when the doors open.
Ferdinand Cesarano
At least on the A (other than at 125th and 59th Sts, or where merged with the C in Brooklyn), headways are such that a 20 second door holding doesn't have serious effects.
On the Lex and on Queens Blvd, door holders as a class cause immense amounts of time to be lost for the commuting public. They reduce the feasible frequency of trains (increasing crowding) and generate serious backups (meaning that while you're standing in your packed train you're hardly moving).
It's amazing the woman didn't use her laptop to force the doors from closing on her. I've seen stollers (with babies in them, no less), bags, legs etc. For some people, losing a $1,500 laptop to catch a train is plain stupid.
One day I saw a woman at S/B 34th st/BMT express platform, trying to catch a R68 Q local, when her foot got caught on the door (delibate, of course). Two men came up to her and flagged the conductor to reopen the doors, while trying to free the woman trapped on the doors (I was too far down, but I was able to see the men trying to free her.) The doors reopened. thank God, but she NEVER thanked the men who probably saved her life. The men were complaining about that too. Very ungrateful for that woman, who could've been dragged by the train.
Stupid people galore.
I've seen people throw their pocketbooks & bags between train doors, shows people have no patience to wait for the next train.
Not to mention strollers, with kids in them! I was waiting in an idling 7 train heading to Queensboro Plaza, during the weekend GO that has been going on for the last 3 weeks. These 2 mothers with kids in the strollers boarded on. The first got on in time, but the doors started to close!
The second one did a dumb decision and actually sticked the stroller between the doors! Really, compromising your own child for saving time on a train. Real smart, lady...
I felt like wanting to slap her but I'm not dumb.
I've seen women put strollers with babies in them between closing doors, too. I think each and every one of these women should be cited by ACS and be "fixed" because they clearly show no regard for the baby's life. Putting a baby in the path of moving machinery is GROSS NEGLIGENCE. I wonder if NYPD's Transit Division arrests them when a cop witnesses it? BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?
"BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?"
I hope that was not the case on Atlantic Ave yesterday afternoon. I was driving on Atlantic towards that direction when that nasty accident happened. My condolesces to the families of the victims.
Da Beastmaster
To think there actually were days when people would stop
and coo into a baby carriage...... :(
"BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?"
I hope that was not the case on Atlantic Ave yesterday afternoon. I was driving on Atlantic towards that direction when that nasty accident happened. My condolesces to the families of the victims.
Da Beastmaster
The thing is,NO ONE should be holding the doors whatsoever!But hey that's what the stupid people get for being in such a rush to catch a train like its the last one of the day and no more are gonna show up.
Now please,don't tell me to not call people stupid when they do that cause I'm gonna hear none of it.In my book,people who hold doors or rush for the trains when there's no need to or ask the dumbest question's you'll ever hear....are stupid.No question's asked.No but's,and's or if's.Those are the people that will NEVER learn.Same thing goes for those who make a mad dash to the express train from the local train and only get off after skipping 2 or 3 local stops thinking they've saved 5 or 10mins when in reality they saved diddly squat.
I like what you think. I just wished everyone else thought that! Many people who hate the V train don't believe what you think... Pretty ironic, huh?
Sucks to be them.Like everyone else,they fail to appreciate something that is good for them even if they were staring at it from point blank range.
Yeah...
The ride is only an extra 5...
I took it from Manhattan. Very reliable!
Same thing goes for those who make a mad dash to the express train from the local train and only get off after skipping 2 or 3 local stops thinking they've saved 5 or 10mins when in reality they saved diddly squat.
I've noticed that taking the express vs. the local often gives an impression of major time savings even when the reality's different.
LMAO! She's lucky that all she lost was a paper, given that kind of incompetance.
Philadelphians aren't any better, earlier this year I was on the MFL at city hall and a guy tried to get on my car as the door opened by putting his water bottle in the door. It must have been open, and he had managed to swing it up by the cap, so that it pointed outward, the doors never saw it and there was an explosive burst of water soaking him and his wool sweater. The best part was the guy standing next across from the door in question, a huge black dude, just erupted in laughter, and the whole car got a good laugh out of his idiocy. The bottle remained wedged in the door until 30th st where sombody knocked it down as they got off.
Just today I saw somebody walk into a door on the Subway Surface lines at 19th. The car pulled in and the usual number of people got off, about 4 or 5. A kid dressed in commerce bank clothes, seated in the last row with his friends yells, suddenly jumps up and runs to the rear set of door just as they start beeping. The trolley's rear doors are passenger operated, so long as somebody is standing down in the steps a weight switch is activated and the doors will stay open. They also slam shut really fast once the beeping has stopped. This guy happened to be unlucky enough to not trip the weight sensor as he took a flying leap down from the car level. The weight switch seems to be in the last 2 steps, and he missed both of those and reached the door just as it was closing. It turns out that the door motors are plenty strong enough to resist the force of a healthy teenager moving at at least running speed. The guy stumbled back to his friends, who were in hysterics, got off with me at 15th, and ran to catch a trolley going the other way. Almost makes me wonder if the car needed work done to it's rear most pair of doors. I know it was a 13 from Yeadon with the old blue and red mid-body strip, but didn't catch the number.
About a year ago I saw a man on an R46 E (I don't recall the station) place a thick book between the doors while they were closing. (Large, Pocket-sized, 2-inches) There weren't any crowds of people, nor on the train, but the doors couldn't close which leaves only the conductor to open the doors again for the man to board the train.
If the woman put a single-wedged newspaper between the doors, she should've known the doors will still completely close giving the signal to the motorman. If it was an entire Sunday paper, that would be a different story.
Even SUBWAY CAR DOORS gotta read the Nooz, brah!!
what makes a subway ride a good ride?
what factors are there in good ride?
and what is the best line in terms of the easiest ride from 34th to points in outer boroughs
I think the with R-68s would make the best line, quiet, smooth, not-bouncy train, large 75' cars, on its private ROW south of dekalb on a express line with no timers,
now thats a good ride
I would think a "good ride" is one that wasn't memorable. You get from here to there without anything happening.
SmugglerBuddy what a animal you are ! There are not many who love the Hippos.
And the Douce Man does make a good point, i.e. from a commuter's point of view.
Me I like the rocking & rolling, the feeling of speed, the screech of the wheels, etc. But then I ride the subways for fun vs. just an ends to a means.
The average commuter doesn't care about the good ride. They are too busy getting to/from work and are in a hurry to do so.
Precisely. That's why I hate posters on here who complain about the lack of difference once all of the current rolling stock is replaced and the existence of no more railfan window. The MTA caters to commuters, not railfans.
I was thinking about this, and I realized that, for me, the things that make for a "good ride" are negative -- the LACK of certain things. I guess this reveals that I just really take pleasure in riding the subway. The subway ride has always been among the "good" part of the day for me, as opposed to work, which is the "bad" part.
Sure, individual seats and openable end doors are preferable to bench seats and locked end doors. But, those points are not make-or-break for me. So, for me, just about any ride is a "good ride", unless it is marred by:
* too much light (such as in those horrible R142s)
* loud automated announcements (again, damn those R142s)
* shouting idiot preachers
* strollers (it isn't the KIDS that I mind, just the strollers)
* arrogant door-blockers
Also, one thing that I really miss -- something that would surely have been part of my definition of a "good ride" from several years ago -- is those short periods when the lights used to go out. I remember this happening frequently on the E and F on Queens Blvd. when I was a kid. I found that so comforting, and I wish it still happened. Whatever they did to "fix" that "problem" also "fixed" a great deal of charm.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I think a good ride usually isn't picture perfect, you have a train that rocks, goes very fast, you get my drift. And it depends on how the person's perspective is when describing a "good" ride. BTW, you should of said R32's ;-).
The 7 appears to be superior way to get from westside IRT to/from eastside IRT:
* much less walking
* trains aren't crush loaded
Though the shuttle:
* probably has more TPH (true?)
* and is the quicker route to/from GCT
If this is true, it would seem that NYCT should encourage people to use the 7 between the trunk lines (signage, for example). Would improve things for them, and those left on the S.
Actually it would be best if they had more or less equal loads. Conceivably by your argument if they encouraged more people to take the (7) over the (S) that would work towards that goal. But I'm not sure that the (7) does indeed have less "crush loads". I've often found it to be packed to the gills during rush hours.
I suppose we could kind of look at the (7) as the 42nd St local and the (S) as the 42nd Street express. And with so little difference between local and express--less than even 6th Ave--the purpose of such an alignment is increased capacity. It might be good if the two lines had cross-platform transfers. Better still if the (S) continued to Queens and became the Flushing Express, in which case we could call it the (8). And better still if the Flushing IRT were four-track, and connected to the other IRTs. But uh...not gonna happen.
:-) Andrew
"I've often found it to be packed to the gills during rush hours."
Why I posted - could be that my premise is wrong. I'm not a daily rider. But the 11 car 7 seems to always be civilized leaving Times Square. It fills up more at GCT, then it really loads up at Queensboro plaza. On the other hand, the 3 or 4 car S is almost always crush loaded. Almost as if they wait until no one else can get in before they finally move.
Actually, if another bullet would be used, it would be 11. It is signed on the R62/A as purple. Heh, they're craps.
Yeah. I know. The folks who planned the rollsign colors above # 7 on the R62 and R62A were probably on something. Those color/number groupings are BIZZARE!
:-) Andrew
"The 7 appears to be superior way to get from westside IRT to/from eastside IRT:
* much less walking"
Less walking but more vertical distance. My gut feel is that it takes more time to take the 7. I could be wrong, though.
I took the 7 until I realized that the NYC Subway Olympics works like this:
Mike: 0
Escalator Department: 1
The S [Times Sq shuttle] has no stop at 5 Av, making it more convenient than the 7 although both of them have heavy crowds. Shuttle is every 5 minutes during the day, 2-3 minutes in the rush hour.
In my commuting career I've had 2 times when I had to go crosstown on 42nd Street. Both times I found the Shuttle to be a better choice.
Once was coming down from the Upper East Side to the Penn Station area. Here the timing was about the same for the 7 or S as long as the 7 was running smoothly. However, if you got down to the 7 platform and there had been a delay out in Queens, you were sunk. Even if there were a problem on the S (never happened to me, and would seem rare, since it's really 3 independent lines) you were only one level below the street and walking in the direction you needed to go.
Nowadays, I often come in to Penn Station and need to catch Metro North at GCT. Usually, I'm going against the rush hour flow. I find that it's much easier to get to the Metro North area from the S than from the 7.
CG
Maybe the answer is more frequent headways on the S. I think they are contemplating a re-design at the Times Square end, and that could help too.
Of course, extending the 7 to Penn Station could really shift traffic away from the S, if that happens. I haven't seen the estimate of how many people take the westside IRT then S from Penn to the GCT area, but it has to be substantial.
I work in the Chrysler building annex. I thinks it depends where your coming from on the East side. The 7 has entrances on 42nd ST just off Third Avenue, at Lexington and inside Grand Central. The shuttle's eastside terminal is just north of Grand Central under Vanderbilt & Madison Avenues. The 7 has many 11 car trains running on frequent headways while the shuttle at most has a total of 10 cars running on three tracks.
Excuse: I meant west of Grand Central for the shuttle's eastside terminal
Here is how I look at it:
Pros to the 7:
Frequent service weekdays
Less walking
Redbirds (not for long)
Cons to the 7:
Very deep!
Not in the best location at Times Square
Pros to the S:
Fewer stairs/escalators
Stops closer to other lines at Times Square
Cons to the S:
Not as frequent weekday rush hours and middays
Lots of walking at Grand Central
More crowded
No railfan window
Great writeup, photos, and track diagram on the NEC "fastest, busiest, world-class Northeast Corridor".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Is that super railroad #3? I know way back when #1 was ATSF, but that featured a warbonneted F unit on the cover, so it must go back a ways. Then more recently UP got #2, after they swallowed C&NW and finally got a solid link to the Chicagoland area (it doesn't get much more solid than 3 lines and Proviso Yard).
I guess it's nice that the NEC gets some props, it's certainly about damn time. I'd like to think that it will encourage the building of catenary around the country, but trains ain't exactly a trade journal, and many people see the NEC's nest of wires and shudder at the thought of trying to do that with their trains.
There is also a photo story on the LIRR original "double deckers" in the current issue of Classic Trains. I use quotes on purpose--read the article for the reason.
Is that super railroad #3? I know way back when #1 was ATSF, but that featured a warbonneted F unit on the cover, so it must go back a ways. Then more recently UP got #2, after they swallowed C&NW and finally got a solid link to the Chicagoland area (it doesn't get much more solid than 3 lines and Proviso Yard).
I guess it's nice that the NEC gets some props, it's certainly about damn time. I'd like to think that it will encourage the building of catenary around the country, but trains ain't exactly a trade journal, and many people see the NEC's nest of wires and shudder at the thought of trying to do that with their trains.
Was anyone here at today's public hearing at the Roosevelt Hotel? I was there for the first 45 minutes or so, and I got to hear three elected officials who exceeded the three-minute limit per speaker by a factor of about five. I was hoping to hear some innovative ideas, but I didn't hear much beyond "don't raise the fare" and "don't close the booths." Next time I'll show up later in the program, when the common folk are given the opportunity to speak; some of them may have interesting comments.
I wasn't there, but I heard a story about it on WINS. The reporter played a tape of one speaker talking about how MTA "promised" not to cut service if the fare were to go to $2 and then tried to renege on that "promise." He was accompanied by a chorus of boos for the MTA Board. The speaker was not named in the WINS piece, but it sounded an awful lot like Gene Russianoff.
I've been to some of these things, and it bugs me that the politicians and the Straphangers' Campaign people get moved to the front of the speakers' line and get to blather on while their sycophants cheer or boo as appropriate, while Joe Rider gets to sit there fuming for hours until it's his turn to speak (or he gets frustrated and goes home).
David
Let me see if I can defend Mr. Russianoff. There are facts upon which we will not all agree, but here goes.
The MTA presented three possible fare/toll increases, one of which was not supposed to involve service cuts, but did require additional subsidies. Those subsidies seem unlikely, given the shape of the governor's budget proposal for the next fiscal year. Regardless, they may not show up until the budget is passed in March, April, May, June, whenever.
The token booth closings are perceived by the majority of people as service cuts. We've been through the debate a little on the board.
The hearings are not about a specific plan to close the MTA budget gap but rather a range of possible fare/toll/ticket price increases. Similarly, the token booth closing, according MTA Executive Director Katherine Lapp, are not a done deal. As a result of the hearings, some may be saved. I would imagine that if the Legislature and the Governor agree on a small subsidy increase (in the $20 million neighborhood) specifically to keep the booths open, they won't close at all. Seems unlikely. (I think it was done one year to eliminate some OPTO use.)
What is bugging Russianoff and others is that it seems as though the $2.00 fare/20% average fare and ticket increase option, I think it was Option B, was a red herring. It was almost impossible, and, even if the added subsidies were forthcoming, the MTA was likely to close a bunch of booths anyway as part of their general philosophy of phasing out booths as anything more than information centers. Yet, the MTA paraded out Option B as a realistic option if only people would accept a $2 fare.
Another thing bothering the politicians is how the MTA pretended their finances were fine a year ago, with the governor running for reelection, when they knew that $600 of the budget came from one-shot money.
Marc, THANKS for putting it together like that, saves ME from having to explain it and be blamed for making it "political." But yes, you're RiGHT on the money. Add to the mix that the STATE is looking to LOOT MTA, Port Authority, and all the other "revenue agencies" they can get their fingers around, and yeah, tough times ahead no matter what the plans of the MTA at this point.
And folks SHOULD bear in mind that UNTIL the budget is done over the summer, ALL of this is just "study group" stuff. MTA will need to decide once they get REAL numbers. The "budget" only tells agencies what to expect. If the PUBLIC actually bothers to rise up and grab some politico NECK, then all of this can change. LACKING public concern, then what you're seeing IS the plan unless altered ...
Baaaaaaa .... baaaaaaaa ... or maybe not.
"Yet, the MTA paraded out Option B as a realistic option if only people would accept a $2 fare."
Anything I read in the papers about Option B was very factual. Basically, "We can prevent service cuts with a $2 fare and slight additional subsidies." I saw no claims that they actually believed those subsidies were forthcoming.
I didn't see an Option D, maintain the current fare for another year with $800 million in subsidies, or Option E, cut the nominal fare to $1.25 with a couple of billion dollars in subsidies. Somewhere on the board, there was a discussion of Option F, free transit.
The MTA is a creature of the governor's office. Because they knew or should have known that increased subsidies were not forthcoming given the state's and the city's fiscal crises, they shouldn't have trotted out Option B. They used it as a feint to make a $2 fare palatable.
Personally, I think that they should have been up front about everything: how much they are in the hole this year and next and the exact effect of each option (ie: closing a rush hour booth saves X dollars; raising the average fare 10% would bring in Y dollars, and presenting various options of increasing the cost of different MetroCards to get that percentage increase).
I wasn't really headed toward Russianoff-bashing or Straphangers' Campaign-bashing. The main thrust of my post (or at least where I was trying to head) was that the politicians and "transit celebrities" go to the head of the line at these hearings, and the public doesn't get to be heard for several hours, assuming they don't give up and go home first. A secondary thrust is that these groups are all in league with each other (not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself) and that they put on what amounts to a dog-and-pony show for the media when they go to public hearings, causing actual members of the riding public to be ignored by the media.
David
After noticing water flowing down the center basin between tracks on the G line yesterday, i found myself stumped by a few questions:
1. Once this water hits a drainage area, where's the dividing line between what pipes are MTA responsibility and what's the DEP's territory?
2. How is normal (i.e. non-flood conditions) drainage accomplished in ballasted track areas?
3. Finally, in embankments and open cuts, what kind of infrastructure is/was put in place to prevent the land from buckling due to rain or other weather conditions?
Thanks!
::D
Type 1 (conventional ballasted) track, as it exists in a subway
tunnel, is actually sitting in a u-shaped tub of concrete called
the "invert". There are drain pipes at the base of the invert
which collect water and bring it to "ejector rooms" which
pump it up to the nearest sewer line.
Outdoors, the same principles are followed as on any railroad.
Below the ballast crown is another crown of sub-ballast. Water
will tend to filter through the ballast layer and then flow
downhill towards the edge of the embankment, where it is collected
by french drains, perforated PVC pipe, or the like.
What is the street location of Grover Cleveland HS in Ridgewood?
What would be the best and quickest way to get there from Penn Station using subway, bus or both?
E to Queens Plaza then take Q39 bus to Forest Ave.
DaRidgewood would know where it is for sure. But to get to the neighborhood, that's the best way to go.
#711 Q39
DaRidgewoodBusBuff would know the location for sure, hopefully he sees your post.
Grover Cleveland @ 21-27 Himrod St, it's a short walk from Metropolitan Ave.
From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn. Go outside take Metropolitan/Grandview branch of B38 to last stop, it's near Linden Hill cemetary. Do not take the Seneca branch of B38 bus.
***[From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn.]***
Hows about, take the L train to Grand Street & takes the Q54 Metropolitan Avenue Bus
to the east side of Linden Hill Cemetary and walks up the hill. The B38 Dekalb Avenue last stop is on the west side of the Cemetary. I'm sure the bus operator will put him off on the right stop for Grover Cleveland High School.
;-) Sparky
Yes I though about it too later on, pick up bus by side of Eastern District H.S., when exiting station, use the left staircase facing the token/Metrocard booth. Diagonally opposite Chase use the Q54 for Metropolitan Ave to the stop before Forest Ave.
Thanks my GG partner.
DAVID
Thank you all for your help! I will pass the info on to my friend. I will recommend the L and the Q-54.
I made the trip to Grover Cleveland HS once about 50 years ago. I lived in Cypress Hills then, and it seems to me that I took the B-13 over from there.
It's been too many years amd I can't remember whether I changed buses or walked the rest of the way. Making the trip once so many years ago did not make a lasting impression on me, and I couldn't remember exactly where the school was.
Thanks Again! :-)
***[I made the trip to Grover Cleveland HS once about 50 years ago. I lived in Cypress Hills then, and it seems to me that I took the B-13 over from there.]***
At that time, from Cypress Hills, if starting at Jamaica Avenue &
Crescent Street, you may have taken the B-18. Have to look at an
older Brooklyn Bus Map later, to find the Northern Terminal of the
Old B-13 route. The B-18 has been eliminated & the B-13 rerouted
and extended to Graham & Metropolitan Avenues. But one of the
oddities of the rerouting of the B-13 from Ridgewood to
Williamsburgh is that portions of the route are the same as the
"Bushwick Avenue" Street Car Line, abandoned without replacement in 1947/8.
Kool D, my Brighton Buddy, the reason I remembered the now Q-54
Metropolitan Avenue Bus, was that when I was of High School age,
the guys & gals from Greenpoint attending GCHS, bitched about the
double fare, since there was not a free transfer to the then B-53
Metropolitan Avenue Bus. That goes back to BRT Days of various
underlying companies holding the franchise. MetroCard transfers
eliminated that sheet, 100+ years later.
;-) Sparky
I would always be glad to help anyone, if I'm able to. You are most welcome Mr. Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown "GG" line.
Sparky, IIRC the northern terminal of B-13 was Wyckoff & Gates, right outside the Ridgewood office of the then Hamburg Savings Bank. The bus proceeded to Myrtle, then Linden back to Wyckoff. The B-13 would start its return trip to Old Mill from Linden and Wyckoff.
I was the messenger for HSB in 1954, and had to make two trips each day between Cypress Hills, Ridgewood and the HSB main office, which was a few blocks down Myrtle at 1451. I just can't remember where I got off for the one time Grover Cleveland trip.
Karl,
If the route was similar to what was the B-13 south from Wyckoff &
Gates, I would hazard a guess at Onderdonk Avenue & Gates for
Grover Cleveland from the B-13.
On the lastest Brooklyn Bus Map for the B-13 prior to the merger
with the B-18, it looped Gates & Myrtle to Wyckoff to Palmetto to
St. Nicholas to Gates or visa verse. Didn't use Linden Street
for turn about. The Southbound B-18 used Linden from Wyckoff to
Cypress.
Also another footnote in reference to the Bushwick Avenue Streetcar
Line, they ran from Myrtle & Wyckoff via Myrtle to Bushwick & North.
The B-13 Bus goes from Wyckoff & Gates via Wyckoff to Flushing Ave
to Bushwick Avenue. But it also covers a portion of another abandoned
Streetcar Route, the "Union Avenue" car line traveled from
Throop Avenue on Flushing to Knickerbocker Avenue & south to Myrtle
and then to Myrtle & Wyckoff.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
I sure don't remember this B-18 bus from 1954. Is it posssible it was created after that?
I had to walk from Wyckoff and Gates to Myrtle, and then down Myrtle to the main office. I don't remember a streetcar in 1954, but that's not saying that there couldn't have been one there. My messenger job was only from March to September in 1954, and then I got promoted.
Karl
Karl,
The B-18 Wyckoff Avenue bus was there for many years. It has been a
Bus Line dating back to the late twenties, early thirties. IIRC.
The streetcar lines mentioned "Bushwick Avenue" abandoned 1947/48.
The "Union Avenue" line, was shifted over to Lorimer Street when
the IND (GG) was built under Union Avenue. Have to look up what
was the date of abandoment. Not to be confused with "Union Street".
Brooklyn had both and not related to each other.
You remember the Lexington Avenue El and rode same. I just remember
passing under it on Franklin Avenue on either a Streetcar or Trolley
Coach. Never rode the Lex El in Brooklyn.
We have different memoirs from Brooklyn. But you've got 4 years on me.
;-) Sparky
Grover Cleveland @ 21-27 Himrod St, it's a short walk from Metropolitan Ave.
From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn. Go outside take Metropolitan/Grandview branch of B38 to last stop, it's near Linden Hill cemetary. Do not take the Seneca branch of B38 bus.
FOOTNOTE: I checked the latest on the Dept. of Education web site, and Grover Cleveland is not listed under High Schools. The name of the school may have changed since the last time you visited there.
Grover Cleveland is still in operation--it's listed in the city's official directory. Today's Newsday carries the obituary of their previous principal.
Another one for the books!!!
-Stef
I've decided to hold off Chicago sidetrip cuz my 10 year old son asked me to wait so he can go with me later time (perhaps Summer?) Now, I'm trying to decide which routing I should go for...
Tampa-Atlanta-St. Louis-Kansas City-Denver (can visit Atlanta and St Louis rail systems)
-OR-
Tampa-New Orleans-Dallas-Denver (can visit New Orleans' trolley and Dallas' DART systems)
I'm driving a one way rental truck to bring my mother-in-law stuff to Colorado in a couple of weeks (Feburary 20th-March 1st) I'd also would like to know where are safe place to park the truck at any Park-n-Ride lots. I'd also like to know any transit-related things to do in these cities.
Thanks in Advance!
Michael Calcagno
Do not forget that Denver has a LRT. Tampa has a streetcar line that links downtown to Ybor City. If you go to Dallas, you can ride TRE commuter train to Fort Worth, and Las Colinas office complex in suburban Irving has its own people mover.
JSD,
Yes, I will visit Tampa's Trolley before I hit the road. I know Denver have LRT because I live near Denver! :-)
Michael Calcagno
>>> I'm driving a one way rental truck ....I'd also would like to know where are safe place to park the truck at any Park-n-Ride lots <<<
If you have a U-Haul or any other national franchise, your best bet is to ask a local franchise owner to allow you to park it on his lot. It is not conspicuous there. Parking it at a Park-n-Ride lot may make it a target for thieves. If you have to park it in a parking lot, be sure it is attended and tip the attendant in advance.
Tom
Here's something odd. I found a picture on the NERail photo archive site of an open car sitting on an MBTA flatcar (I guess) in 1997. The open car is painted in Connecticut Company colors, although it isn't lettered for any railroad. The number of the car is #1752, which doesn't appear in any of my records. Is this ConnCo #1414 en route to Lake Compounce? (I hadn't heard that #1414 had been renumbered, but what do I know?) Or, is it actually ConnCo #1752? If the latter, does anyone know who owns the car or where it is currently? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
No, it's not 1414. ConnCo 1752 wasn't even an open car.
I suspect this is one of Seashore's open cars painted up and
sent down to Boston for the 100th anniversary of the Park
St. subway. Maybe Todd Glickman knows (but you'll have to
wait for an "8" :)
I suspect this is one of Seashore's open cars painted up and
sent down to Boston for the 100th anniversary of the Park
St. subway.
Precisely; it's a Connecticut car from Seashore. 1752 was the first car to run in the Boston subway, hence the renumbering.
Now what's it's real number? :)
***[Now what's it's real number? :)]***
CONNCO 1391.
:\) Sparky
Roger that, Sparky. (And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 1391.)
Roger that, Sparky. (And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 838.)
Glad you corrected yourself and not on the eights. But how about
the premier open car in Trolley Preservation ~ the one that started
it all. Biddeford & Saco #31.
;-) Sparky
Ah, it all becomes clear to me now. Thanks for the info on #1391.
"And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 838."
And 1468? I don't know much about that car, I don't remember seeing it...
Frank Hicks
It's on our roster, but not operational. It was built in 1911 by Osgood Bradley Car Co., and is a 75-seat (15 bench) double-ender. Seashore acquired it in 1948.
I can't recall off the top of my head which barn it's in, or what condition. Perhaps one of my colleagues recalls.
Todd,
I gather when Frank visited in 2000, he was not shown the jewels of the collection in "Fairview" a/o "Central". Even at Branford, we have
such a jewel, CONNCO #614 in "Blossom" Carhouse.
Branford's other opens are:
CONNCO #1414 is on lease at Lake Compounce, Bristol, Conn.
CONNCO #1425 was repainted for the tricentennial of Yale University
and displayed at the Yale Bowl. Awaiting funding for mechanical work.
CONNCO #401, fully restored cosmetically and displayed in the Quonset Carhouse.
Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550.
Eighty CONNCO opens remained on the roster thru 1947 in New Haven for
Yale Bowl service & 56 years after the last run, ten are located in
three New England Trolley Museums.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
"Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550."
Slight correction, at Warehouse Point I think you ment 355 & 1550.
355 has the best chance of going back in service. She's in the "Kelly Barn" where ther public can easily see her.
Last year the two open cars in use there were:
- 1850 from RIO, a 1912 13 bencher, she's similar to the ConnCo cars
- 4 from Montreal, a 1924 touring car, she's also topless < g >
Todd,
I gather when Frank visited in 2000, he was not shown the jewels of the collection in "Fairview" a/o "Central". Even at Branford, we have
such a jewel, CONNCO #614 in "Blossom" Carhouse.
Branford's other opens are:
CONNCO #1414 is on lease at Lake Compounce, Bristol, Conn.
CONNCO #1425 was repainted for the tricentennial of Yale University
and displayed at the Yale Bowl. Awaiting funding for mechanical work.
CONNCO #401, fully restored cosmetically and displayed in the Quonset Carhouse.
Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550.
Eighty CONNCO opens remained on the roster thru 1947 in New Haven for
Yale Bowl service & 56 years after the last run, ten are located in
three New England Trolley Museums.
;-) Sparky
I think you mean 840 at Warehouse Point
Yup; 838 is at Seashore (or at least was last time the yard wasn't covered with snow & ice :-)
OOOPS!!! I stand corrected. That's what I meant.
838 ~ Seashore,
840 ~ Warehouse Point.
;-) Sparky
"Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550."
Thanks for the list... although isn't 838 at Seashore? (I know of ConnCo 663/355 and 840 at CTM.)
Anyway, I was wondering about 1550 too. I didn't see that car when I visited Warehouse Point in 2000, and I have no idea what its condition or location is. Also, CTM claims that it acquired the car in 1977 - does anyone know who they acquired it from? ...help? :-)
Frank Hicks
Oh, I guess I should have corrected both halves of John's
sentence :)
ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley. It doesn't appear on your
roster It served on the Waterbury division. After service
quit it was sold to a camp in Westfield CT. The body snatchers
acquired it ca 1977-1979.
The other servicable open car at CTM is 1850 which is not
on your roster but with good reason: it is from Rio.
***[ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley. It doesn't appear on your
roster]***
ConnCo 1550 does appear on Frank's roster listed as an open car.
That's where I got that car number from and didn't scroll down
further to see 355.
But pardon my other misprints, just checkin to see if I'm being read. >GG<
:-) Sparky
"ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley."
Oops. Thanks - I'll correct the list. I wonder if I can get any additional info from the CERA site...
Frank Hicks
From the CERA site...I doubt it.
Here's what I know about the car:
Built 1911 by Osgood Bradley, order #5014. Original number 194.
Renumbered 1550 in 1915. Owned by Connecticut Railway & Lighting
1936-1937 (essentially a legal technicality). Sold in 1937
to a camp in Westfield CT. Acquired ca 1979 by CT Trolley Museum
as a body only. Condition: poor.
Car is wooden with a deck roof. It had (when a complete car)
four GE80 motors, STD O-50 trucks, CP-27 compressor, straight
air brake, K-35G controller, weight 47,600 lbs.
Jeff, thanks for the info. Out of the VAST array of properties I know virtually nothing about, ConnCo stands out as the one I'd most like to learn more on. I've tried to find a book with a good roster, but without much luck - any titles you can suggest? Also, where did you get your ord# data? Some books list those, but most don't and they're generally hard to find.
Frank Hicks
The best equipment book is Connecticut Company Streetcars.
Sadly, like the BRT trolley lines, no one has ever written
a thorough and scholarly history of ConnCo. Another picture
book, hopefully with very accurate captions, may be forthcoming
in about a year.
Many years ago one of our founding members compiled the all-time
ConnCo roster on index cards, going through available ConnCo
records at the time