Had to post today at the tower at Flatbush Avenue, and when I got there I was surrised to see that it was 2 side platforms, having never been there before. Are there any other still existing end-of-the-line terminals like this (I'm not a true A div person and haven't been to too many A div terminals, but there are none in the B like this)? Is there a reason why Flat is 2 side platforms instead of an island platform?
By end of the line I mean where no other line continues past that point (like Broad as the terminal for the J but the M continues).
The Flatbush AVE station on the 2/5 was never intended to be the terminal for those lines. The original plan was for the line to continue to floyd bennit feild which at the time was the cities only airport. Obviously that never took place. It would be nice if it would have been completed. It would have served Kings Plaza Well.
Nope...the plan was to continue down Nostrand Avenue, transitioning to an elevated structure and as far as the area of Avenue S. If memory serves, it was then supposed to turn east, but I don't recall how far it was supposed to go (though Floyd Bennett Field doesn't ring a bell).
David
The Utica Avenue Line was the one that was to extend to Kings Plaza (approx. Utica & Flatbush Aves.) with an additional extension to Floyd Bennett Field (IIRC on the map of proposed extensions it shows a break in the route which indicates that the portion running between Kings Plaza and FBF was to be a shuttle line).
Are we talking about the 1968 plan here? What I referred to goes way back to the 1920s.
David
Nope. Floyd Bennet Field didn't become an air field until WWI (1917ish), well after construction on the current Brooklyn IRT was underway.
I believe voiceofreason got the lines mixed up. The Flatbush branch of IRT was to continue down Nostrand and terminate at Voorhies Ave. near Sheepshead Bay (actually closer to near Marine Park). Thanks to the NIMBYS of Marine Park and NYCTA finacial constraints at the time, the extension plan was killed.
Another way to tell the line was to continue on: look at the support structures at the southern end of the station platform -- the tunnel-type support beams continue beyond the train terminus going past the fare control area up to the MVM machines (disappearing into the tiled walls near the stairwell). I was told that about 150 of the line continues on past the station platform, ending near Avenue H.
there are some oictures out there that shows this to be so.... a train once ran into the bumper block there,showing the tunnel extending a little futher along.
there are some pictures out there that shows this to be so.... a train once ran into the bumper block there,showing the tunnel extending a little futher southeast.
"Are there any other still existing end-of-the-line terminals like this"
New Lots.
145th on the 3 was when it was a terminal.
New Lots had an island platform, last I checked. (Unless you mean New Lots on the L, which isn't the terminal.)
But Dyre used to have side platforms.
"But Dyre used to have side platforms."
Dyre Ave. had one side platform for a terminal, which was the old NYW&B northbound local platform. The southbound local platform was never used for the IRT. A very high wind blew the canopy off the local platform. That's when the TA decided to upgrade this terminus to an island platform. Pics of this can be seen in Roger Arcara's classic book, "Westchester's Forgotten Railway".
Bill "Newkirk"
I stand corrected. Peter Dougherty's track map shows two side platforms, and I assumed this was at one point the configuration.
When was the island platform built?
There are quite a few terminals with stub ends.
Ditmars Blvd N,W
Lefferts Blvd A
Far Rockaway A
242 St 1,9
Rockaway Parkway L
Not exactly what I meant. What I meant was stub ends that were side platforms instead of island platforms.
Oh, terminals with side platforms.
South Ferry 1,9 [even though it uses only 1 platform]
Grand St shuttle [only until the Manny-B project allows 6 Av trains to run to Brooklyn again]
New Lots Av 3
Every elevated IRT terminal has side and center platforms. My guess is that this was done to clear congestion by allowing trains to empty incoming passangers onto the side platforms.
Yeah I'm sure that was the purpose but they don't use the side platforms nowadays, its used for storage & trash.
New Lots Avenue doesn't have side platforms.
"New Lots Avenue doesn't have side platforms."
The track maps show it as having side platforms. Presumably this is no fault of Peter's since the NYCT changed the arrangements after he made the maps.
It would be wonderful (though I realize it's a lot of work) if someone who knows the subway system in great detail would compile an errata sheet for the track maps. Of course, I can see that this would cut into Peter's sales of updates.
Looked up the word errata and got "list of something." A list of track maps you mean? I'm confused, lol
Errata is the standard publishing term for list of errors.
It, and Main Street on the Flushing (Three Tracks?) were NEVER INTENDED to be terminals. My suggestion in both cases is to EXTEND the line and build loops to increace capacity. Both lines need more capacity, but especially the (7).
On the (7)... extend the line along Roosevelt Avenue with a two track side platform station at Parsons Blvd, and a four track two island platform station at Northern Blvd. Dual loops under the LIRR ROW connect the eastbound platform to the westbound platform. Several trains may be serviced with such an arrangement while increasing the capacity of the line.
On the (2)/(5)etc. Id extend the southbound track along Noostrand Avenue then turn east to a new two track center-platform station on the LIRR ROW, and then return north along Flatbush Avenue and rejoining the existing trackage at the Flatbush Avenue station. This *could* be a three or four track loop without a station, providing they are not going to be fussy about clearing the train before it enters the loop. Call it a revenue loop and let those who miss the last stop wait for the cleaners and crews to bring the equipment back into the station again. Once or Twice will learn them.
Elias
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended. The original plan was to extend the Corona line along the now-gone Whitestone LIRR branch north of Willets Point.
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended.
And why not is this? Anything that has been built can be rebuilt.
Elias
Main Street, after it's recent rehab, cannot be extended.
And why not is this? Anything that has been built can be rebuilt.
Extending Main Street would require destroying something like $30 million worth of recent renovations. Sure, it could be done, but it would be a huge waste of money.
I'm going to have to see this magnificient gem of a station the next time I come east! Is it nicer than the one in Renseller? Troublemakers want to know.
you talkin bout that ''pretty''new station,across the Hudson river from Albany?Been there,very nice,but not worth the massive amounts of cash spent on it.....they didnt even have a clock,for god sake.
.they didnt even have a clock,for god sake.
God doesn't NEED a clock!
One will be put there just as soon as they get an advertiser to PAY FOR IT!
: ) Elias
what are u...a wise guys or somethin'?8^)
What's the point of introducing a loop to help the relay procedure if both the locals and the expresses have to merge in for that stop on Parsons first? Sure, there wouldn't be much congestion at the terminal, but just outside it there would.
If *that* is an issue, then it would be easy to make Parsons a four track station too. But his then limits you: the expresses must then use the center loop, and the locals must use the outer loop. I was thinking to alternate arrivals and departures. Train on track A leaves, throw the swithch, train on track B leaves, throw the switch...
There is no reason why this arrangement cannot manage 45 tph.
Elias
45 TPH means that on those two tracks at Parsons, should you decide to keep them, you must have a train open its doors, board and alight people, close the doors, accelerate and completely leave, another train fully enter and open its doors, all in 80 seconds, every 80 seconds. I think it would be much more dependable to keep everything three or four tracks east of Main St, and keep the 7 line in general at 40 TPH rather than 45 TPH. I don't know if Times Sq would like 45 TPH. One idea for Northern Blvd (your last stop) is to have everything after Main St three tracks and make the No. Blvd loop only from the out-bound local track around to the in-bound track and just make the train that comes in on the express (middle track) relay without any kind of loop.
the in-bound track and just make the train that comes in on the express (middle track) relay without any kind of loop.
The idea for the loops it to give the car cleaners a few minutes to do their work.
Train comes in, cleaners get on, chases geese off
T/O and C/R get off,
New Crew gets on.
Doors close, train goes into loop
Cleaners Clean, they got about 120 seconds to clean a car,
Train enters citybounds station doors open, cleaners get off geese get on.
Doors Close: Give my regards to Broadway!
Elias
The TA did have a plan to extend tracks to relay trains beyond
the station....and speed up service. This plan would make lots of sense....similiar to 205th st on the D. I was told about this a few years ago from a good source.
You don't need an inside source to find out about the plan for the Flatbush tail tracks. See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm#pp and do a search on Flatbush.
The news so far hasnt said much ecxept for that communications have been lost for 40 minutes, looking at a video on cnn, you can see that the shuttle disintegrated into 5 peices.
>>> you can see that the shuttle disintegrated into 5 peices. <<<
I am sorry, I can not tell from your post if you are referring to the Times Square shuttle or the Franklin shuttle, or some other rail shuttle.
Tom
Some things transcend the topicality of this message board.
Well since none run 5 cars in NYC I hope it was none of them. :)
This morning on SubTalk was the first I heard of it. I was trying to figure out how the hell the TA lost a shuttle.
The TA lost an entire R-44 "A" train, plus an entire R-38 "A" to 16-year-old Keron Thomas in 1993, all because the poor lad wanted some handle time. Weirdness like that DOES happen. So it's not strange that you'd think first of the TA, not NASA.
So it's not strange that you'd think first of the TA, not NASA.
Especially on SubTalk.
There are reports that there was a series of explosions before the space shuttle Columbia broke up.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the explosions was after Columbis started breaking up.
The information I had yesterday was preliminary. You just can't jump to conclusions. This is simply just going to have to play out and then we'll know what happened.
#3 West End Jeff
Most likely the sonic boom(s) created by the Mach 8 speed the craft was moving at...
I don't remember all of my ballistics figures because I was never involved with 'silenced projectiles' but speed of sound is something more like 800 MPH and Columbia was doing 12,500 at an altitude of 200k. We're talking 15+ mach with a generation that never experienced sonic booms. Unlike a passenger aircraft meeting the ground at 500 MPH, the airframe broke up and no part crashing to earth was apparently larger than a small automobile. Sadly, the crew compartment was not designed to be an independent vehicle body like Star Trek rotunda or a protective 'bathtub' like A-10 'Warthogs.' We just might go back to Apollo capsules or Soyuz. If something goes wrong on ISS, the Rooskies just might bring our people home. It's just not Glasnost, Ees Pravda Komrads. Remember the souls lost reaching out into the Universe, East and West. CI Peter
If something goes wrong on ISS, the Rooskies WILL bring our people home. The escape craft tethered to to the ISS is a Soyuz. Dosvidanya!
It is obvious that the shuttle had an airframe failure at 200K feet travelling 12.5K mph as it did a barrel roll and began to break up.
Some doof tried to pass the problem on to inspection.......the best inspectors could not have found THIS potential stress problem. CI Peter
.
Probably IMO
They are showing video of it burning up and crashing near Dallas Texas.
Showing it over and over again.
A state of emeregency was already declared for Texas; I'm watching Ch 2 at this moment and its showing that the shuttle broke apart and falling down; real sad :-(.
Old "Duck and Cover" drills come to mind. Thank god nobody on the ground was killed, but declaring states of emergency for things like this might do more harm than good.
Just heard about it in the car. Absolutely horrific event. They say communications were lost at 200,000 feet.
There is a report, NOT PROVEN! that a piece of something that bounced off the wing during take-off had something to do about it. It caused minor damage. However the crew on board said it was not serious.
Nothing has been proven. This should NOT be considered what happened.
I imagine that it will be quite some time before the cause will be determined.
And I'm sure on the internet will be all sorts of "theories".
They said on NY1 and CNN that the Mission Control commander said it wasn't serious.
Even if it caused more serious damage than they let on, reentering then could have had the same result. So he may have bought them 16 more days of life. And by telling the crew and others that it wasn't serious avoided a panic.
However he's probbaly going to have to live with the constant questioning by superiors and the media. Kinda sucks.
I would hope and pray that if this really was the case couldn't they have hooked up with the space station at least to avoid reentry and possibly wait for another shuttle with possible parts for repairs if it could be repaired or just get our Astronauts home savely. A shuttle can be replaced but not a family member/ please remember that I am only responding to possibilities and not on any facts here but again it is now over and I do pray for all of them
JV
I fully agree. I would must certainly hope that had ANYONE connected with the suttle in any way had had even an inkling that the incident on take off could present a problem on re-entry that they would have docked with the space station (there are 3 astronauts there now) and awaited a mission with either spare parts or to return them safely to earth. I think everyone will agree, sacrificing a spaceship (had it been thought that Columbia could not safely return to earth) is a small price to pay to save even one life!
I remember a presentation given to my grade school at the time of lunar mission about the unforgiving nature of re-entry. The person giving the presentation told us that there is a precise angle that the space craft must hit the atmosphere at, too shallow and the craft "bounces" out into space; too steep and the craft will burn up on hitting the atmosphere. Now I don't know if that applies to orbital missions as well as ones such as the lunur ones that left the orbit of earth, but it sure entered my mind this morning.
May all our prayers be with the families of the crews!
According to my copy of "The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual" (by Kerry Mark Joels, Ballantine Books, 1984) the angle of re-entry is critical. It must be between 28 and 38 degrees with respect to the horizon, and with respect to the shuttle's LVLH (local vertical/local horizontal) position. The tech briefing by NASA just a few minutes ago also reported temp sensors going offline before breakup, and then excessive temp warnings from other sensors just before telemetry was lost, along with loss of landing gear tire pressure. This information is merely a set of clues, not the final cause.
God rest the souls of the fine, brave crew.
Unfortunately, from what I am hearing on the radio, Columbia was too heavy to dock with the space station, so that wouldn't have been a solution.
I don't know much about this stuff but would it have been possible to send another ship and do a transfer of the crew? It would mean Columbia would have had to have been sacrificed, but had they known (and if this was the cause), would it have saved the lives?
Would have taken too long to workup a flight profile and mission rules, plus get another ship and crew flight-ready.
And maybe the risk outweighed the good here. We may think it simple, but without air resistance and being in freefall, one small move can go a long way, maybe into the other shuttle.
And I read the shuttle has a minimun of 4 crew and max of 7, but I would guess in an emergency they could find a way to get more on board by leaving off some payload.
I had a similar idea.
Sadly, the ISS is in a 61 degree orbit, that's 61 degrees above the equator. You've probably see the maps of the world at Johnson Space Center, with what looks like a sine wave running back and forth across the equator. Basically all this is is a graphical representation of the ground track of the shuttle. Since spacecraft orbit the globe, they must pass above the equator twice in every orbit. An orbit with an inclination to the equator of 0 degrees looks like a flat line running the length of the equator. A 10 degree orbit will have it's most northern and southern portions at 10 degrees.
The ISS is in a 61 degree orbit because the russians also need easy access to the station, since their launchers (Protons, Zenits and Soyuzes [Soyuzi? Soyi?]) have thus far done the bulk of the heavy lifting. Since Plesetsk in russia is at around 60 some degrees north longitude, the ISS has been placed there. Most missions out of Cape Canaveral go to a 28 degree orbit, since the Cape is some 30 degrees off the equator, and it's easiest to just fly south to the equator, setting the high points off the equator at 28 degrees, and getting a slight boost from the earth's spin.
Columbia is in fact unable to reach the ISS that requires the Shuttles to fly north out of the cape, raising the inclination to 61 degrees, sacrificing the boost from the spin, and putting more stringent requirements on the spacecraft, cause Columbia was the first out and was loaded down with instrumentation and so on, it is too heavy to sacrifice the spin and make a 61 degree orbit.
This places Columbia in a Nasa-standard 28 degree orbit, and requires a complex orbital change at the equator, where all orbital planes, from 0 to 28 to 61 to 89 degrees, intersect. To do this requires a burn in the direction you want to go, perpendicular to the direction of travel, and that requires fuel. I'm not sure how much fuel the Shuttle had at that point, but I'd be willing to bet that Columbia didn't have enough fuel to reach the ISS through a burn at the equator. In space fuel (or a tether) is everything, you cannot push off anything, even if you are 3/8s of an inch from the handle, you will not reach it.
It's nice to think that something could have been done, however nobody seems to have had any idea that it was nearly as bad as it wound up. They do need to do something to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. If it does turn out that it's damage to the leading edge of the left wing, NASA might want to consider making changes to the way they do things with non-spacewalk missions. Either always carrying the Robotic Manipulator Arm on all missions, equipping every flight with a repair kit for fixing damage to the tiles, finding a way to still have spacewalks and carry suits while carrying that Spacelab Module, or any combination of those three, preferably all three.
Other than that, we really now need to think about replacing the Shuttle. We're down to 3, and while the ISS schedule may or may not be interupted (most likely it will be). One solution is to create a new pair of space shuttles as replacements for Challenger and Columbia, however we've advanced quite a bit since the 1970's technology that bred the STS. Ideally something like HOTOL (HOrizontal Take Off and Landing) is now possible, so long as air to air refueling is used in the take off.
Pathfinder proposes to use something like this, having a modified KC-135 with it's high lift (least more lift than a shuttle-type craft) wings carry the fuel above the thicker lower atmosphere, Pathfinder takes off with conventional jets and nearly empty tanks to lighten it as much as possible, then tanks with the -135 a few miles up, gets it's load of kerosene and LOX, detaches and climbs to some 70,000 or so feet where the jets lost oxygen, burn out and a russian RD-120 rocket takes over, pushing it to a suborbital flight, where a small payload motor fires it to a stable orbit. Admittledly Pathfinder is a severely limited thing, only capable of suborbital flights with any appreciable payload, however it could be increased in size to create a HOTOL shuttle replacement, at the very least capable of becoming a cheaper crew shuttle, leaving the assembly to the Shuttles and expendibles.
Oh well, it's still an amazingly sad event.
Two more links to Pathfinder:
http://www.rocketplane.com/index.html
Pathfinder's Hompage.
http://www.spacecoretech.org/coretech2000/Papers/Systems/Rocketplane%20summary.html
An impressive article on Pathfinder.
And:
http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/basics.htm
An excellent site on Orbital mechanics, pretty math heavy.
Thank you for taking time to post all of your information. You have helped me to further understand to doings of the shuttle program. I do agree that even though we have lost our fellow country men and woman, they need to resolve this problem and continue the space program. I also agree that we need to replace our lost shuttles. What better way to do so than name the next shuttle if they do built it AMERICA. what better way to represent our melting pot and our great nation but to send America into space. And if they do this place a memorial plack on or in this shuttle with the names of our falling Astronauts since the begining of our space program.
thank you for reading my post and again on this Sunday morning my family and I would like to send our condolances and prayers to the families of our fallen Hero's
john
I think your suggestion of creating a memorial to the fallen heros on any replacement vehicles is a great idea, but we should not limit it to those lost in Challenger and Columbia, we should include the names of all the brave souls lost in the space program of planet earth. I saw in the paper today that the Soviet Union lost cosmonauts in thier space program as well. Those heros and the people lost in the Apollo 1 disaster as well as others I may not be aware need to be included in such a memorial.
One positve I have taken from this terrible event, is that it is possible for leaders of just about every nation/group in the world to share common ground. Let us hope and pray that from this horrific event, such leaders can discover that we really have more in common than we have differences and use the goodwill that has been expressed to begin resolving differences.
Nice post. Agreed!
Blast! I thought I recalled them being on an ISS servicing mission.
You know that there is a 40 billion dollar hotel floating up there that could have housed them for some time? Had the problem been considered significant they would have embarked on an extended vacation in the Orbital Hilton.
The Texas Department of Public Safety has issued a bulletin to treat the crash debris as a military accident, and North Texas TV and radio outlets are telling people not to touch any debris if they locate it. Lousiana officials are doing the same, since the shuttle exploded at 200,000 feet and the field will likely cover seveal 100 miles (Dallas is 150 miles from the Louisiana state line).
An awful situation, with the focus on possible damaged tiles that occurred during the shuttle launch. Terrorism not suspected, but since there was an Israeli astronaut on board, that thread will pop up everywhere in the coming days.
Here's the AP story on the local reports:
DALLAS (AP) - Residents of north Texas heard "a big bang"
Saturday about the time the space shuttle Columbia disappeared on
its way to a landing at Cape Canaveral.
"It was like a car hitting the house or an explosion. It
shook that much," said John Ferolito, 60, of Carrolton, north of
Dallas.
NASA declared an emergency after losing communication with
Columbia as the ship soared across Texas at an altitude of about
200,000 feet, while traveling at six times the speed of sound.
The space agency said search and rescue teams in the Dallas-Fort
Worth area were alerted.
Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying
overhead. "I could see two bright objects flying off each side of
it," he told The Associated Press. "I just assumed they were
chase jets."
"I was getting read to go out and I heard a big bang and
the windows shook in the house," Ferolito told The AP. "I was
getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows
shook in the house. I thought it was a sonic boom."
Louisiana State Police in Bossier City, 182 miles east of
Dallas, got so many calls that one trooper had to be assigned
just to answer the phone.
"One said he saw a plane breaking up over Shreveport. One
said he saw a big ball of fire. One guy said his house had a
blast that shook his house," state police Sgt. Steve Robinson
said. That call was from DeSoto Parish, south of the parish where
Bossier City is located.
"Back in the 1980s, a Russian satellite re-entered the
atmosphere," Robinson said. "We got lots of calls about that.
Turned out it went down a thousand miles from here."
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (Feb. 1) - Space shuttle Columbia apparently disintegrated in flames over Texas on Saturday minutes before it was to land in Florida. TV video showed what appeared to be falling debris, as NASA declared an emergency and warned residents to beware of falling objects.
Six Americans and Israel's first astronaut were on board.
In north Texas, people reported hearing ''a big bang'' at about 9 a.m., the same time all radio and data communication with the shuttle was lost.
Television stations showed what appeared to be flaming debris falling through the sky, and NASA warned Texas residents to beware of any falling objects. NASA also announced that search and rescue teams were being mobilized in the Dallas and Fort Worth areas.
Inside Mission Control, flight controllers hovered in front of their computers, staring at the screens. The wives, husbands and children of the astronauts who had been waiting at the landing strip were gathered together by NASA and taken to secluded place.
''A contingency for the space shuttle has been declared,'' Mission Control repeated over and over as no word or any data came from Columbia.
In 42 years of U.S. human space flight, there had never been an accident during the descent to Earth or landing. On Jan. 28, 1986, space shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after liftoff.
On Jan. 16, shortly after Columbia lifted off, a piece of insulating foam on its external fuel tank came off and was believed to have struck the left wing of the shuttle. Leroy Cain, the lead flight director in Mission Control, assured reporters Friday that engineers had concluded that any damage to the wing was considered minor and posed no safety hazard.
Columbia had been aiming for a landing at 9:16 a.m. Saturday.
It was at an altitude of 207,000 feet over north-central Texas at a 9 a.m., traveling at 12,500 mph when Mission Control lost contact and tracking data.
Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying overhead. ''I could see two bright objects flying off each side of it,'' he told The Associated Press. ''I just assumed they were chase jets.''
''I was getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows shook in the house,'' Ferolito told The AP. ''I thought it was a sonic boom.''
Security had been tight for the 16-day scientific research mission because of the presence of Ilan Ramon, the first Israeli astronaut.
Ramon, a colonel in Israel's air force and former fighter pilot, became the first man from his country to fly in space, and his presence resulted in an increase in security, not only for Columbia's launch, but also for its planned landing. Space agency officials feared his presence might make the shuttle more of a terrorist target.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office said it had no immediate comment.
Columbia's crew had completed 80-plus scientific research experiments during their time in orbit.
Just in the last week, NASA observed the anniversary of its only two other space tragedies, the Challenger explosion, which killed all seven astronauts on board, and Apollo space craft fire that killed three on Jan. 27, 1967.
I wouldn't be surprised that the damage to the wing may turn out to be the cause of the latest accident. They are also looking into the auxillary power generators. They are leaving no stone unturned in the investigation. One should also note that the spacecraft is over 20 years ago and that could also be a factor.
#3 West End Jeff
(sigh)
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
In the meantime, they are focusing on the left wing of the shuttle since that is where the problem may lie. Let's see what comes out of this.
#3 West End Jeff
Sadness, the heat tiles were peeling off as it was entering earth's atmosphere.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
No they weren't... otherwise it wouldn't have been allowed to come back down. There would've been some space walking action to fix them.
Nope, no spacewalking. SpaceHab missions mean that the airlock is taken by the connector tube between the shuttle cabin and the module. Plus there was no Remote Manipulator System (RMS, or Arm) to carry an astronaut out to the site of the problem. You could have just gone tethered, but there are no hand holds out there on the left wing, if something goes wrong, say the tether snaps, you'd have to claw against the wing's tiles to work your way back to the bay, and good luck getting into the bay itself.
Expect to see NASA find a way to work an airlock off of the Spacehab connector tunnel, so that EVAs can be performed during those missions. Also always carrying Manned Manuvering Units, or at least 4 space suits, along with a tile repair kit and the RMS arm will become mandatory.
Most likely the foam insulation struck the underside of the wing, upsetting one of the tiles just a fraction of an inch. Enough that when it came time to reenter the tile acted as a small spoiler, pushing air away from the airfoil and creating a vacuum behind it's forward edge. It would be pried off the space shuttle in the thinnest reaches of the atmosphere, and after the first the next few would come in quick succession, like dominos. Once the front one is gone, the next one faces the 3000 some degree heat on two sides, and falls off, the next right after it. All this imparts drag on the left wing, which NASA techs see, in the meantime 3000 degree air (really more like plasma), is cutting into the aluminum airframe like a welding torch. This raises the pressure of the tires, which Houston also picks up on, just a bit too late, because by then there are enough tiles gone, and enough aluminum exposed to the torch that the wing has lost structural stability, it breaks off, and the results are immediate and catastrophic, undoubtedly with one wing gone the right wing is now generating all the lift and rolls them, simultaneously slewing the nose to the right, where theres more drag. This places the exactly wrong side of the shuttle into the blast, and the whole thing is cooked like a burning marshmallow, white, thinner tiles soak up the heat and reach their limit.
Just about the only thing that we can hope is that the intense heat and pressure at least allowed the crew a quick and painless death, hopefully time for a quickly muttered prayer before the cabin lost the battle with the atmosphere.
>>> Most likely the foam insulation struck the underside of the wing, upsetting one of the tiles just a fraction of an inch. <<<
I concur with that analysis. When I worked with tactical missiles long ago, a 1/4 inch indentation anywhere in the skin of a missile was enough to remove it from service because of the effect on its flight characteristics. Those missiles flew much lower and slower than the space shuttle.
Tom
Is it possible the final event this led to (before the Shuttle broke up) was a "zipper effect" whereby the tiles peeled open and then off in a chain?
They are looking into the foam insulation hitting the wing and upsetting the tile theory. Like you mentioned, a difference of a fraction of an inch can cause a tiled to be pried off in the thinnest reaches of the atmosphere at the speed the shuttle was flying. At 12,500 m.p.h. the loose tile probably came right off and started the chain of events that led up to the shuttle's break up. One the left wing came off the shuttle simply disintegrated. The death of the crew was probably immediate and perhaps from the shear forces that resulted from the break up.
#3 West End Jeff
The latest reports are of possible shuttle debris found in California and Arizona, which would seem to go towards the "zipper effect" theory. Some other pieces may have come off even before Columbia reached the Pacific Coast. The tiles themselves might actually float in the water, but anything else could be pretty hard to find if it fell off then.
I think that some shuttle debris has been found in California.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> The death of the crew was probably immediate and perhaps from the shear forces that resulted from the break up <<<
Although quick, I doubt that the deaths were so immediate that there was not a sensation of the craft tumbling and perhaps increased temperature which tipped them off that things were going badly before disintegration.
Tom
Once they have started entering the atmosphere, unfortunately, there is NO stopping the re-entry. Gravity takes over....
Actually things on interplanetary tragectories can aerobrake, where they come in at speeds that would merely flip them past the planet at high speed. In aerobraking the satellite would zip inward toward the planet, skims off the upper atmosphere at up to double the Space Shuttle's speed, the reentry heating that we all know so well now bleed's energy off the satellite, braking it, making it orbit the planet, and doing all this without a drop of fuel (if you do it right). The russians always planned to use aerobraking for their moon probes, cause the wanted to get back fast (one or more days less food consumed, less weight), but not carry all the fuel necessary to brake like crazy just before reentr. With aerobraking they could fly back really fast, like one and a half days, then skip off the atmosphere, spend 12 hours floating out on their post-braking run, and then reenter hopefully somewhere over the Soviet Union. Most of our current plans for Mars missions call for Aerobraking, and a big problem with it is that winds and other chaotic atmospheric things can spell disaster for precision on reentry.
Course the shuttle was way too slow, way to low to aerobrake, and could not even hope to successfully aerobrake and achieve orbit again. Although really every orbit ends in an aerobraking, albeit an unsucessful one.
Interesting, thanks for explaining that. I was always under the impression that once the atmosphere started slowing things down and gravity got stronger, they couldn't do anything.
No Problem,
It's all about the energy, you are correct on both accounts, it's just orbital engineer's way of cheating a bit. So far, to the best of my knowledge it has never been used anywhere outside of many hard Sci-Fi books, and is largely unknown.
And obviously the Shuttle didn't have the energy nor even the fuel to push itself out of the atmosphere even over the pacific, let alone over texas.
Yeah, that's the one big problem with space travel. If anything happens out there, the crew is screwed. It's not like if something happens, they can just send up another shuttle tomorrow to get them; the shuttles take months to prepare for a flight. And as we all unfortunately saw Saturday, if anything happens on re-entry, it's over. No "aborting" re-entry, once it has started, there's no escaping coming down the rest of the way. Gravity has already started its task and there is no stopping it....the atmosphere causes vast amounts of heat as they re-enter no matter how slowly.
May they rest in peace!
I never thought that I would re:live this horrable situation all over again. I will certianly pray for our Astronauts and their families
john
In a world overrun by hatred, terrorism, and ruled by human sins and vices of the evil kind, It is encouraging to hear that despite of this incredible tragedy, that we, still, will continue to pursue Space exploration, because I think that Exploration is one of the unique human tendencies that leads to the good of all people, space exploration and science is a noble and worthy endeavour. G-d bless all those who gave their life for the good of mankind.
This is terrible news....the worst news I have heard in some time. I hope the families will be comforted by heroism of the crew.
---Brian
>>> I hope the families will be comforted by heroism of the crew. <<<
What did they do that was more heroic than the typical passenger in an aircraft that falls from the sky?
Tom
Don't you know ever since 9/11 everyone who dies is a hero.
Unfortunately every other word out of the media nowadays is hero, kind of sickening. As sickening as the pricks on ebay selling 'Columbia debris'
"Unfortunately every other word out of the media nowadays is hero, kind of sickening."
Yes, the media does over emphasize things these days. But the shuttle crew was indeed heros. Highly eductaed people who put their life on the line for their country, conducting experiments in space to benefit mankind.
These are people we look up to and admire, Maybe that's what the news media's talking about. And in closing, not only is the latest show of greed on ebay enough to boil our blood, ponder this. Word from Iraq is that Iraqi government officials have expressed glee that the Shuttle blew up. And old Saddam, the wise religious prophet he is, stated that the Shuttle tragedy is God's retribution to the United States. What God does he worship to come up with a statement like that. I guess his God says it's alright to kill and torture a million of his own people and rape his own women.
Now I can't wait for the bombing of Iraq to begin by dropping Susan Sarandon, Norman Lear and all those Hollywood assholes on Bagdad.
Bill "Newkirk"
Working for peace is a fine thing. But if the other side doesn't want peace, either you prepare for war or prepare to die. I don't see Saddam trying too hard for peace.
Now I can't wait for the bombing of Iraq to begin by dropping Susan Sarandon, Norman Lear and all those Hollywood assholes on Bagdad.
Yeah I always though it pretty damn greedy of them that they make all this money in the U.S., from the U.S. people, and then when they get the chnce, turn on the U.S. What patriots.
I agree with you. Drop'm.
Don't forget Hanoi Jane! We need to air-drop 'er somewhere!
She dropped her drawers for Ted Turner and look what it got her.
AOL Time-Warner stock, which is about as hot as Ted and Jane's love-life right now (and weren't they just so darned cute doing that tommahawk chop during the 1996 and '99 World Series against the Yanks?)
If the truth be known, and this will shock everyone who knows me, I was rooting againt the Braves in both Series because I despise Turner and Fonda more than I do the Yankees. The Bronx boys are at least American in spirit and in their winning attitude while those two pathetic jerks to me will always be disloyal traitors. I never watch a Jane Fonda movie and the Braves are the one team I hate more than any other.
I would like to drop a king size chest type dresser draw on her just for kicks
We all seem to agree on this: Jane Fonda is one filthy, rotten, pathetic excuse for a human being.
Thank you Sir I agree with you completely in fact I would love to take up a collection to send her on a trip of a life time to the infamous hanoi hotel.
We also could drop Rosie O'Donnell ... though she probably would count as a weapon of mass destruction.
Geez, and we think that meteor crater out in Winslow, Arizona was big.....
Now, now. We want to DISARM Iraq, not wipe it off the face of the EARTH...or do we?;-)
there is always Roseanne Barr in reserve. she will wipe out iraq, siria and saudi arabia in one dump
PULEEEEZE!!! Whatever happens, do NOT let Roseanne Barr take a dump ANYWHERE!
That would SURELY be the end of mankind.
Rosie is dropped from 50,000 feet -- the shockwave kills people on the ground within the immediate 50 miles, the aftershocks from the impact destroy buildings within a 100 mile radius or so, while a huge dust cloud encircles the Earth, lowering global temperatures and bringing on the "Rosie Winter" that Carl Sagan described 20 years ago, causing crop failures, oceans to freeze and the eventual extinction of most known species of life.
Just too horrible to think about...
My God Jay---when Elvis Presley was singing "Don't Be Cruel" he had to be thinking of you. Poor Rosie.
I saw Rosie on Bill O'Reilly's Factor and she was very moderate and said things that I did agree with. I never thought she and I would share similar sentiments but she is a hell of a lot better than Fonda. And what about O'Reilly? One cool dude.
And to think, we reefed all those redbirds. Could you imagine the crater a redbird would leave if dropped from 25,000 feet?
Too much asbestos -- wouldn't conform to EPA rules for military ordnance. Only dropping R-62 or later cars on Iraq would be legal, I think...
The EPA doesn't fight the wars. Let's drop R-44s on them and bring back the Arnines!
The EPA doesn't fight the wars. Let's drop R-44s on them and bring back the Arnines!
Here's something interesting that manages to get back to the subject of the thread, and mix in the EPA at the same time. Apparently, the spray-on non-CFC insulation mandated by the EPA that was used on the space shuttle over the past several years had a tendancy to flake off after it was applied. It may not mean anything in the final investigation, but it would be ironic if envornmental concerns over flurocarbons in the ozone layer ended up sending a fiery rain of toxic burning materials down on a three-state area
Bill, here's what Iraq had to say, taken from an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha-aretz:
Iraqis: This is God's vengeance
Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday was that it was God's retribution.
"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said. "God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us."
Car mechanic Mohammed Jaber al-Tamini noted Israel Air force Colonel Ilan Ramon was among the dead. Ramon, a fighter pilot, was the youngest in a team that bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981.
"Israel launched an aggression on us when it raided our nuclear reactor without any reason, now time has come and God has retaliated to their aggression," Tamini said.
I, as one American, Hardly give a damn about these filthy animals, for you cannot reason with a mule.
I agree.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, quit insulting mules.
A mule has more intelligence than they do.
What the hell is their problem? Can't wait to bomb the shit out of those bastards.
we are waiting for the coin toss
Every time I think of those middle-east bastards I want to rip out their hearts. Then I have to catch myself and say, they can't all be that way; people aren't inherintly evil. And, Fred, stay calm, you don't want to make a bigoted statement about people. I tell you, though, it gets harder and harder to hold my temper.
"Fred, stay calm, you don't want to make a bigoted statement about people."
Pins and needles, needles and pins, it's a happy many that grins.)
Bill "Newkirk"
where is Ralph and Alice
They went roller skating...and later, they're going to a bop dance.
Sorry, but I've always considered astronaughts to be REAL American heroes. Much more of a hero than a crybaby millionaire baseball player.
Amen to that. They were heroes to me too, especially those who were affiliated with the U.S. Navy/Airforce/ and Israeli air force, those who chose to pursue a career in defending this country or in case of Mr. Ramon, Bombing the living Crap out of Sadaams Nuclear Reactor, that could have/already have led to who knows what.
>>> Sorry, but I've always considered astronaughts to be REAL American heroes <<<
I guess it is how you look at it. I'm too used to the cold war days when it seemed like every other Russian was a "Hero of the Soviet Union" for exceeding the factory quota of tractor parts. I just do not think of anyone in any occupation as automatically being a hero because of his/her occupation. To me, a hero is an individual who does something above and beyond what he/she is expected to do, usually at some personal risk. Some occupations have more heros than others, but no occupation is made up 100% of heros.
Tom
Astronauts and Cosmonauts ARE A*L*L 100% HEROES. OLD tom, Do YOU have the oysters to ride a BOMB into space --- NO--- DIDN'T think so. SPACE RESEARCH BRINGS HOME THE BACON, ECONOMOCALLY, MORALLY, AND SOCIALLY -- What's good for NASA is GOOD for the HUMAN RACE.
>>> Astronauts and Cosmonauts ARE A*L*L 100% HEROES. OLD tom, Do YOU have the oysters to ride a BOMB into space <<<.
Sorry you are having so much trouble with the caps lock on your computer. You seem to be confusing heroism with courage. Is Sea Beach Fred a hero because he is willing to ride the Cyclone roller coaster while many others fear to do so? No. Is Evil Knievel a hero because he jumps across various things on a motorcycle and breaks many bones doing so? No. Being courageous enough to risk one's life does not make someone a hero. And BTW, I would love to get a chance to take a space ride. Unfortunately the last time I looked I was still a bit short of the $20 Million + it takes to fly tourist class.
Tom
"You seem to be confusing heroism with courage. Is Sea Beach Fred a hero because he is willing to ride the Cyclone roller coaster while many others fear to do so? No. Is Evil Knievel a hero because he jumps across various things on a motorcycle and breaks many bones doing so? No. Being courageous enough to risk one's life does not make someone a hero."
You are confusing thrill-seekers with dedicated professionals who return to all segments of society lasting benefits. Think about what astronauts do in space (their work list) and compare that to someone who's only interest is a getting a rush on a roller-coaster.
HEROES:
1) Astronauts, who risk their lives in the quest of knowledge and wisdom to benefit us all,
2) Military personnel, who risk their lives to preserve and protect the freedoms we hold so dear,
3) The men and women of our emergency services, (Police, Fire, and EMS) who risk their lives to give us the protection against danger, and death in all its many forms.
These people are but a mere few of so many in a multitude of fields whose common link is their "uncritical willingness", as Tom Wolfe put it, to sacrifice themselves that we may ALL benefit.
God bless our astronaut crews and all our other heroes upon whom we depend every day.
Naw, that's bull. This planet needs people who are willing to risk all to advance our knowledge of the universe. You think it's because of a joyride, you're loony. It is the purest expression of that greatness that we, of all Earths' animals stumbling around on this ball of mud can hope to accomplish. To understand the universe.
Yeah man. That's some kind of heroism.
GOOD POST
And BTW, I would love to get a chance to take a space ride. Unfortunately the last time I looked I was still a bit short of the $20 Million + it takes to fly tourist class.
Unless Southwest Airlines decides to enter a totally new market ...
Nah, ya can't get a 737 over 600 miles an hour.....
Well said, Tom....
Thank you Old Tom. Heroes are not created as such but arise from unusual conditions where they do a little more than required. I work with unsung heroes every day...I'm TA. CI Peter
I guess it is how you look at it. I'm too used to the cold war days when it seemed like every other Russian was a "Hero of the Soviet Union" for exceeding the factory quota of tractor parts. I just do not think of anyone in any occupation as automatically being a hero because of his/her occupation. To me, a hero is an individual who does something above and beyond what he/she is expected to do, usually at some personal risk. Some occupations have more heros than others, but no occupation is made up 100% of heros.
Actually, the modern concept of "hero" is someone who performs a potentially dangerous job AND dies in the performance of those duties. Nothing else is required in terms of extraordinary performance or appreciation of the risk.
Consider it this way - all of the firefighters and police officers who died at the WTC have been enshrined as heros, even though the vast majority of them did not save any lives* and none of them could have realized the danger.** Somehow that seems to cheapen the definition of heroism.
* = just about all of the people who escaped from the WTC did so on their own, almost no one was "rescued."
** = the true danger was unknown because no one on the face of the Earth imagined that the towers would fall. Had they remained standing, the job from a rescuer point of view would have been far less dangerous (basically, waiting for the fires to burn themselves out).
"** = the true danger was unknown because no one on the face of the Earth imagined that the towers would fall."
The engineer who designed the towers is on record (in print) as saying he was sure they would fall as soon as he heard about the attack. Other people with fire-related experience have also said so.
However, the FDNY command at the time didn't have this certainty (and you can't blame them for that), so your underlying statement is correct.
Your point that almost no one was rescued by the rescuers is true. But a few people were in fact rescued, even carried out bodily.
More important, quick action by the FDNY in closing the doors from the WTC to the outside saved many people from being killed by jumpers. Other crowd control measures also insured that everybody who got to the base of the towers survived, that no one strayed into harm's way from outside the towers, and that those in adjacent buildings almost all survived.
Without the FDNY, many more people would have died. Almost all of the lives were saved in very mundane ways though, not dramatic carrying out of injured bodies.
More important, quick action by the FDNY in closing the doors from the WTC to the outside saved many people from being killed by jumpers. Other crowd control measures also insured that everybody who got to the base of the towers survived, that no one strayed into harm's way from outside the towers, and that those in adjacent buildings almost all survived.
True, but on the other hand that decision could have proven disastrously wrong. Evacuating people through the concourse rather than out the ground-level doors increased the time needed to get everyone out to safety. Had one of the towers come down more quickly, this slower evacuation method could have meant that hundreds or even thousands of people were still in or right underneath that tower when it came down. Far more people would have died in that situation than would have been hit by jumpers had they left the towers by the plaza-level doors.
The engineer who designed the towers is on record (in print) as saying he was sure they would fall as soon as he heard about the attack.
This is quite surprising, given that the designer of the WTC died on February 7th, 1986.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Not architect (Yamasaki), engineer. His name is Robertson and he's still alive.
I would agree somewhat. My thoughts are that the EARLY space missions, particularly the crew of the first moon landing and definitely the men of the Apollo 13 were heroes to the core (accomplishing extraordinary feats under unusual circumstances)...but ever since NASA went with the Space Shuttle Program the flights have become routine launches. The vehicle itself is essentially a 'pick-up truck' with wings.
Perception over reality. If you're average pick-up line had a 1.7 percent catostrophic failure rate for each time someone takes it out of the garage, odds are NTSA would probably be ordering a recall by now.
The fact that trips into space have become more common and the lack of any easily-graspable new goal, such as a manned lunar landing or a future trip to Mars, make the trips seem dull to the public. That translates into thinking that dull=safe, which as Saturday showed, definitely is not the case.
That translates into thinking that dull=safe, which as Saturday showed, definitely is not the case.
And something that occured to me in that vein is the fact that many of us particpate in one of the most dangerous things we can do. We get in our cars and drive where we are going, safe in our minds that nothing will happen to us.
In a country where, on average, 50,000 people die from automobile accidents and thousands more are injured, many seriously.
And, WE NEVER EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.
Driving is so disgustingly dangerous that if we DID think about it, we'd probably throw up. Mind you, in NYC our drivers come from sixty different countries, AT LEAST, and they ALL follow the traffic laws of their country of origin. Native New Yorkers follow no traffic law at all. ;-)
Down here in Baltimore we have our share of autos driven with the loose nut being the one holding the wheel.
I find SUV drivers the worse ones of all, they believe that they and they alone own the road and everyone else can just stay the hell out of the way.
Having pushed large, usually railed vehicles on the streets with the sometimes disturbing habit of not stopping when you want to, I have a healthy respect of speeds and the law of physics. I've been driving for almost 40 years with only one accident that wasn't my fault.
>>> I've been driving for almost 40 years with only one accident that wasn't my fault. <<<<
And how many that were your fault?? :-)
Tom
Zero. I have a very good auto insurance rating and I fully intend to keep it.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Tom...I was thinking the same exact thing.
Guess we all gotta watch how we word things.
That's probably because we calculate (wrongly, based on the fatality rates) that if something goes wrong with our car, SUV, pick-up or whatever, we can simply stop the car, get out and theoretically, we're safe.
With the shuttle, or a commercial or private aircraft where we're not the pilot, if a problem occurrs at 3,000 feet, 40,000 feet or 200,000 feet, stopping and getting out is not an option -- if a malfunction happens up there, either you're toast or your life is in the pilot's hands. So even though fewer problems are likely to occur with commercial aviation (the shuttle is another story), the average person feels more in control behind the wheel of their vehicle and therefore feels safer there, even if all data proves otherwise.
"What did they do that was more heroic than the typical passenger in an aircraft that falls from the sky?"
Space flight is inherently dangerous. NASA places the odds of dying in a Space Shuttle accident at about 1:350; looking at the history of the entire space program, I'd put the odds at 1:40 or so.
Compare that to the risk of being a passenger on a civil airliner.
Essentially, the astronauts volunteered to place themselves at far, far higher risk of death than the average traveler for the benefit of science and society.
They are truly heroes.
Civilain airliners can (and do) encounter mechanical and other problems that cause them to fall from the sky....would you consider casualities heros as well?
The benefits of the work done in space for the benefit of science/society is minimal at best....Tang and Velcro were two of the best things to come out of the space program. Some of the experiments that they are doing in space can be artificially recreated here on earth.
Hmmmmm. Well, I guess the reason for space exploration is the same reason us monkeys finally decided to climb down from the trees and start kicking up some mud. You do realize of course, don't you, that exploring space is like leaving the nest. We have to do it.
Either that, or we stay huddled in our dank caves, screetching in fear and cowardice at every lightning bolt. Even if the "we" in this case is the smartest and ballsiest of us.
Uh...I'm not denying that "we" should venture into space...my problem is that the SPACE SHUTTLE PROGRAM has very little to do with GOING BEYOND earth orbit...our space program should have continued with the Apollo/Saturn IV heavy-multi-staged rockets. We would've been able to get MORE into orbit in LESS time, and with less hazards as the technology was tried-and-true...this is how the Soviets got alot done in space in very little time (albiet not getting a man on the moon first)...
Furthermore...until mankind finds another mode of transport into the heavens, there will likely NOT be any colonization of any planets in this or any other solar system. The expense and equipment needed to provide oxygen, food, waste removal, living quaters, etc. for even ONE human being on a prolonged space flight makes it virtually impossible to be achieved (with current and forseeable technology).
The problem with that approach is that you cannot fly into flying, we need prep work before we can truely go beyond earth and stay there. Apollo was an odd fluke, the government was willing to throw billions into a public relations coup, and in the process set the space program back a good 10-20 years when we got back. We didn't assemble bases from which to work, we didn't leave behind anything (other than LC-39A and B, which both the Saturn V and Shuttle use, the latter only after great modification) that would help us get back into space. Apollo and the Saturn IB or V rocket could be seen as one of the greatest boondoggles of all time, McDonnell Douglas had their Big Gemini that could have done the job cheaper faster and done it repeatedly, GE released a drawing for a Manned Lunar spacecraft which the soviets copied and made their tremendously successful Soyuz off of.
Werner von Braun was right, we should have concentrated on space stations first, planetary bodies second. The idea of launching a whole moon rocket from the earth is nearly laughable, and yet that's what we did, virtually no construction in orbit. We need a stepping stone before we try for mars, jupiter or even the moon again, it's just too far to expect a rocket launched from earth to fly. We've had only one true manned spacecraft (that is, not an ICBM that happens to go 2000 or so MPH faster, some lifting body shuttle, or a relatively unmanuverable station), the LEM from the Apollo missions, which epitomized what can be done with spacecraft design when freed from the requirements of an atmosphere. Since then several spacecraft have been proposed Space Tugs, Mars Craft, and a myriad cold warrior vehicles, armed with bizarre beam weapons, gatling guns and even black paint (flys up to offending satellite, fires an aerosol can of black paint, paint lands on satellite, black paint absorbs sunlight, heats satellite, whose delicate electronics are cooked by the sun).
The problem with the shuttle appearing useless and rather bland next to the mighty Saturn V is that NASA put so much hype into it at first, they were wildly optimistic of it's $/lbs costs, turn around times (at one time they were saying a flight a week, all year long, 52 or so in all! [BTW, in 2002 there were 5 flights, in 2001, 6]) and promised us a space station by the end of the decade. Sadly with the Challenger disaster, along with the close of the cold war, Manned spaceflight took a back seat to more humanitarian goals. During our two year absense the program atrophied, as witnessed by the Hubble Telescope, Galileo probe, and Freedom Space Station. Under these circumstances, any project would have died, even something as mighty as the Apollo/Saturn project, especially something as expensive as the Apollo/Saturn project.
What we need, more than a new shuttle, more than some amazingly heavy safety device (like the escape pod idea that people have been kicking around, even if it had been there, at 200,000ft, Mach 18, it would need it's own tiles just to survive), and more than government oversight, is a brand new design. In 1999 or so, it would seem that all the spacelaunch start-up all went the way of the dot-bombs, Roton, Pathfinder, Phoenix, Conestoga, and the German Rokot, all went completely bust, nearly right around the same time that the X-33 and X-34 were canceled by the government. Today it's the X-37, X-40, and X-43 that seem to hold promise of a future spaceplane, however the X-37 and X-40 are just Rumsfield's playtoys so that he can umm hunt terrorists from 100 miles in space while costing us all billions on a dubious project for Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The Air Force is finally getting it's DynaSoar, and it's gonna cost every penny that caused it to once get canceled. Really the X-43 is the only thing going right now that actually looks like it's investigating technology to replace the space shuttle. However it is supposed to be powered by a scramjet, something that until just a short while ago had yet to achieve net thrust in many many tests, and it looks like it may work someday, but not now. So really we're left with virtually nothing, even the lure of the X-prize couldn't bring about a successful design for a single stage to orbit vehicle.
Hopefully that will change, however I wouldn't hold my breath, the current regime seems to like their unmanned combat spacecraft, the economy's in the dump which means no investment money that drove the last boom in spacecraft design, and also this administration has shown exactly zero willingness to spend money on spaceflight. I'd expect that last one to change, ever so slightly, but, all in all, the Second Ave Subway has about the same chance of being built as the follow-on to the Space Transportation System (Shuttle) does.
What the public does not know is history. The X-15 rocket plane was part of a program to develop a 'manned orbiting bombing platform' out of reach of Soviet missles. The next step was the HLB-2 'lifting body aircraft' dubbed the 'bathtub.' Upon signage of nuclear non proliferation treaties and peaceful use of space, all programs were scrapped. The space shuttles reincarnated the concept of unpowered re-entry vehicles. What has not taken place is the creation of nuclear/ion powered space vehicles because of the treaties. It is time to re-asses the concept of X-15 and improve upon the Pegasus launch vehicle. Just check out how many ' little LEOS' are floating about. CI peter
[HLB-2 'lifting body aircraft' dubbed the 'bathtub']
Peter, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't some crash-footage of that lifting body vehicle used in the opening credits of the old 'Six Million Dollar Man' series? (They used the real NASA footage).
Yep yep, the X-15's direct progenitor was the Navaho, an early attempt at a ballistic missile using ideas from the Nazi A-9 and the Saenger antipodal bomber. The Navaho consisted of a booster rocket with a winged upper stage, the upper stage quite obviously developed into the X-15. The familiar resemblance can be really seen in the never built X-15C and X-15/Navaho (which used the booster from the original navaho to boost an X-15A2 into orbit, more than 15 years before the shuttle did it). The lower booster stage's Aerodyne rocket engines became the basic models for the Atlas, Titan and Thor engines that powered our ICBMs and early launch vehicles.
It's amazing how much we have forgotten, all kinds of good ideas just keep coming back to bite us in the arsche. MOL, Star Wars (SDI), DynaSoar, and a whole host of simply wonderful abortions of thought from the bad old days of the '60's. The X-40 and X-37 are just some republican congress peepholes wanting to keep jobs in their district, it just happens that they suit Rumsfeld's need for a new DOD project to break all the Space Peace Treaties, just like we spat on the ABM treaty. I hear that because the Kinetic Kill Vehicle on the NMD is too hard to do, Bush's regime, at his urging, is now looking at nuclear ABM options for interception, this must be conclusive proof that he was bombed out on god knows what at least up until the early eighties. Has he and his minions forgotten that Nuke in Space=EMP, EMP=Satellite no work, Car no start, and computers go fizzle. AND THIS IS FROM OUR OWN DEFENSIVE MISSILE!
Actually Orbital Sciences, makers of the Pegasus air launched LV, is working on a Castor 120 (the Castor 120 is otherwise known as the first stage of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM) powered Pegasus launched from the roof of a 747, like the space shuttle was once carried. They're promising 3000kg to LEO, which is 2/3's more than the ground launched variant. One of the nice things about air launching is that you are not fixed into launch site geometry. For example, Kennedy and Cape Canaveral can only fire out over the ocean, the same is true for Vandenberg, thus Kennedy cannot fire to extremely high inclination orbits without placing Miami or the Carolinas in danger, and Vandenberg can only fire into a High Inclinatio polar orbit, or a retrograde orbit, not into LEO orbits, since then they'd be lofting Titan IIIDs or IVs back over the LA basin, not a good idea. On the other hand, an air launched rocket can be flown 200 miles out to sea, and launched in whatever direction you want, even fly down to the equator, line up 90 degrees east and gain a remarkable boost from the spin of the earth at that distance from the poles, thus raising the payload to GEO, and lowering your costs.
Really we don't need reusables for cargo, maybe the SRBs from the shuttle for strap-ons, but really the only place that the savings justify the initial cost of a reusable spacecraft is in manned spacecraft. You spend so much always making a new life support system every time you fly that it just makes sense to get back your spacecraft from the first mission, assuming that you don't have to completely strip and rebuild the craft after every launch. Cargo can function perfectly well in a vacuum, in fact all satellites had better damn well function in a vacuum. Thus expendibles will do just fine for the time being, although at some time reusable lower and strap-on rockets should be developed, since that's where a lot of the materials and complexity in building an expendible launcher lies, plus, recovering an upper stage from an orbital velocity would require tiles or heat shields of some form, which takes from the bottom line.
One definite way to improve the efficiency of an expendible launcher is to do more projects along the lines of SeaLaunch. Russia's two launch sites, Plesetsk and Baikonur, are 63 and 45 degrees above the equator, respectively. This means that to get a 0 degree plane (necessary for a Geosynchronous Orbit [the kind used by your direct TV system], the satellite must turn some 45 degrees off it's plane to the necessary plane. This requires fuel, which must be lifted to orbit, which raises the launch weight of the whole affair at the pad, resulting in monsters like the Proton rockets (in the weight class of our Titan IV and ESA's Ariane V rockets) for jobs that our Atlas and Delta rockets could have handled from the cape, and which the even lighter Ariane III or IV could have handled from Kourou, French Guinea, just 10 degrees above the equator. Sea Launch fixes that by moving the launchpad to just below the equator and firing off where nobody will be bothered. Their Zenit-3SL cannot even reach a geosynchronous orbit from Baikonur, yet from SeaLaunch it will lift 3000kg to orbit, without the satellite needing it's own perigee kick engine. Plus it can fire in any direction, making basically all imaginable orbits possible. My mouth absolutely salavates at the idea of an Energia being fired from some sea launch type platform, if it can put 88,000kg into LEO from Baikonur, I wonder what it could put into GEO from some platform on the equator? Heck, with enough money, Clarke's big spinning space station could be assembled in short order from these launchers. Course the platform would need to be the size or weight of a couple of Aircraft Carriers, but it might be worth it!
Thus it would seem to me that the ideal system is one where crew travels via a HOTOL Shuttle, like the Pathfinder, Saenger II, or UK's HOTOL. In the meantime, heavy cargo travels via expendible LVs like the Zenit off the SeaLaunch, along with some Baikonur, Canaveral, and Kourou launches just for good effect. It's a mistake to try and combine a Heavy-Lift launch vehicle and a reusable spacecraft, both the US Shuttle and the Soviet's Buran tried and failed, it's better for the time being to leave the two groups to themselves.
Again, you're dead on on the nuclear part. Ion drives, on the other hand, are quickly becoming the powerplant of the future, since it appears to have none of the "yucky" problems that the nuke drives have. It's just two or three plates with holes in them, Galladium ions fly out of the front, and are accelerated out the back by a series of plates, resulting in forward motion. All you need is a source of electric power (usually solar, but it could be RTGs, Nuclear Reactors, or Electrodynamic Tether) to place an electromagnetic force on the plates.
I will never understand people's unwillingness to actually use nuclear-drives in space. NERVA was practically ready by the end of 60s, we just didn't have the political will, or the bases in space to support it. The best enviro-nuts were the people running around screaming about Cassini's RTG, they did everything to try and stop it, but NASA got it off, even once gone the nuts were claiming that on it's gravitational sling shot past the earth it would reenter and give us all .0000003 grams of plutonium 241. It's about time we actually used nuclear space drives, we're not going to get anywhere just piddling around with LH2 and LOX or UDMH and N2O4, and it's about time we went somewhere.
Anyway, if you made it this far, congrats, you have more patience for this kind of stuff than I do, just hope I was somewhat lucid. I should save this, it might be good for a small paper someday.
Thanks for the details. I remember the dynasoar too. Heh.
EMP ... I've posted this link before, might amuse you ... and to think, our *OWN* cowboy politicos could put us back into the Taliban technology era with just ONE of these things ... yep, I'm all for removing those nice relays, vacuum tubes and other electromechanical stuff that might survive one of these and go with Microsoft Train (tm) ...
EMP bombs
Oh, lovely. One more reason for me not to sleep at night. What man invents, man uses...
That's one reason why some of the old antique technology still has advantages over this solid-state Bill Gates mumbo jumbo. Also part of the reason why the Russkies and the Chinese STILL use vacuum tubes and relays for critical military infrastructure. Their stuff will still work after an EMP event. :(
And so will most of NYCTA ... excepting the R142's and 143's of course.
Hmm, I must admit that the first time I heard of that thing was the last time you posted it. It is from Popular Mechanics, and thus open to a certain amount of doubt, I'm not saying it's false, but PM has a tendancy to go for more flare than substance. I know for a fact that they were dead wrong by claiming the US was in the forefront of EMP weapon development. Russia had us beat all hollow on that account, their Fractional Orbital Bombardment System could loft a Spy-Satellite looking nuke out of Plesetsk, it'd go most of an orbit (thus Fractional Orbit), then, when it's just above the atmosphere and the US, it'd detonate. No mushroom cloud, no shockwave, just a bright light, some cancer cases, and billions of dollars of IC's down the drain. They had monster 10 megaton EMP devices that didn't even have reentry shields, they never were meant to face the atmosphere.
I'm not into the intricacies of the theory of electricity and so on, so this thing kinda float over my head. I don't get how explosives destroying a charged coil can create a strong electromagnetic pulse. Plus they seem to be describing small, pipe bomb devices causing havoc over a vast area. This seems to violate some laws of thermodynamics, you cannot get out more energy than you put in. To affect a city, I'd think you would need a huge amount of explosives, and a bunch of power. Now neither of those is hard to aquire seperately, and most likely those could be hidden. Still, it's not a suitcase nuke or something, perhaps a storage garage, apartment, or something similar could be used. Damn, thats scary.
We've come full circle, from stones hurled at villages, resulting in the construction of walls, later full fortresses and castles, to electronic and electromagnetic weapons which require the building of protection around our vital electronics. Farady cages could become the castle walls of the future. Today physical castles are about as outdated as can be, shells can be lobbed over them, through them, and they can be destroyed by even the most moderate of explosive devices. In the ether, on the other hand, nobody has yet gained the advantage, the attackers have the advantage because the defenders simply have yet to erect the walls, but when erected those walls may very well protect every bit as much as a Castle. Someday EMP hardening, Farady cages, and anti-virus programs will not be enough, in the battle between warhead and armor, eventually the warhead always wins, and we'll have to find ways to perhaps fight fire with fire. Notice that current naval ships have very little armor, why put armor on a warship when it can destroy it's primary threat (in the case of most current US naval ships, long range russian anti ship missiles like the SS-N-19, AS-4 and AS-6) at 100+ miles? Thus it may become someday with electronic warfare, but for now we have to build castles, or at least stout defensive works to protect our most vunerable undersides from attack.
Without getting TOO esoteric, the way that such a device works is a very large capacitor gets charged up just before detonation. The voltage is then applied to the coil which is quickly shorted out by the expanding cylinder. This results in the coil getting "tuned" way up into the Microwave region, resulting in a VERY high frequency pulse with a rampup approaching infinity. Military weapons of less power have already been used, this is what they do to "take out" ground radar systems and was used in "Iraq I" ... trust me, the theoreticals ARE based on reality. Not quite a "nuc-u-lar" EMP, but not bad at all since it's closer in and has less atmospheric attenuation. A couple thousand feet away from the ground, its effects would be JUST as severe.
I agree PM has a tendency to not get it right, Ziff Davis and their (ahem) "reporters" barely know how to tie their shoes, much less something more esoteric. When I worked for the NYS PSC though, we studied this at length. Scary stuff.
But let's put it this way - there's something to be said for contactors, drum switches, cam-operated resistances and "old tech" subway cars ... if one of those went off over the city, a good number of subway cars and signals might still work. Go with integrated circuits, PLC's and computers, byebye NYCTA ... "in a flash."
Thank you my friend WDobner. My interests were over thirty years ago
and did not have a FAMILY to support my education. Just skimming the post seeing DYNA SOAR I knew that my brain wasn't jellied despite passing the 'TA ear to ear flashlight test.' Remember Rogallo re-entry vehicles.....predecessor of hang gliders??? In explaining re-entry vehicles to my crew, I had to grab a Roosky to confirm that no Soyuz ever landed in water. You can survive 30 G for a moment but retro firing too late turns your brain into Yoplait. I went the route from Estes to Centuri never going into perchlorate/sugar SRBs.
I stick to the stuff in the can launching 168 grain projectiles beyond 3000 fps because it does not require FAA clearance.
So I grab one of my favorite Rooskies and perform interrogation. 'Youse stole shuttle blueprints and built from scratch.' 'VE ran out of money.' 'Youse built two biggest boosters
and fired one up with LOX/kerosene and it blew up killing high commnand.' 'Yes, I remember.' Thank God for the Rooskies...they'll keep ISS flying
It's pretty heroic boarding a spacecraft, which is basically a glider, in reentry, and knowing the odds are only 75-1 in your favor!
>>> It's pretty heroic boarding a spacecraft, which is basically a glider, in reentry, and knowing the odds are only 75-1 in your favor! <<<
NASA indicated that their confidence level in the space shuttle was much higher, in the range of 350-1 in favor of a safe return.
Let's face it, the word "hero" is hard to define for each person, since it ranges from a "mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability" through the male protagonist of a story to the name for a sandwich.
One of the definitions is "one that shows great courage" which certainly fits astronauts, but it also fits millions of other humans on this planet.
I tend to like a narrower definition as those who do heroic acts involving courage, daring and self sacrifice. Boarding a spacecraft with a 50% chance of safely returning for an important purpose is heroic, boarding a spacecraft which one believes has a 99+% chance of safely returning does not rise to the level of heroism (even if it does not return) for me.
Tom
Passenger airlines don't travel at 25,000 mph. Passenger aircraft have made more than 113 flights. We tend to forget that space travel is incredibly risky and for people to spend a significant portion of their lives training and then actually going to put their lives in danger for the advancement of humankind is a heroic act.
I didn't get a chance to post until now. My wife and I were having breakfast around 8 AM CST (Dallas) when we heard a boom that shook the house to the foundation. I went outside, but I didn't see anything except the birds flying around agitated. I turned on the news and when I saw the news trailer that communication with Columbia was lost. It then occurred to me that what I heard was the sonic boom of the space shuttle. However, the boom sounded as it should when landing in Florida, not coming down in shattered pieces over Texas!
Rest in peace, STS-107 shuttle crew.
Anyone know if Bombardier supplied NASA with shuttle parts?
Even if they did, right now everything is pointing at something hitting the left wing upon takeoff 16 days prior to the disaster.
With the vast amounts of heat generated by the shuttle's re-entry into the atmosphere, all it takes is basically a pinhole in one of those heat reflecting tiles to cause the catastrophe.
Obviously, that is correct...also, I'd suspect the AGE of the shuttle had alot to do with it's structural failure...I mean the thing's been around longer than some SubTalkers (1981)! It should have been retired years ago. (the gov'mt saving bucks instead of lives -- why am I not surprised).
"I'd suspect the AGE of the shuttle had alot to do with it's structural failure"
Gee, you better notify NASA then...I'm sure they're on pins and needles waiting for your expert analysis.
I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. How about letting the investigators do their job and report their findings? Next thing you know, some of the regulars here will start blaming Bruno for this disaster....[LOL!]
Now now, we all know it's Bubba's fault. :)
Fox News did say NASA cut back on safety during the previous administration. Drop Rupert Murdoch on saddam.
Heh. I had faith. Of course, the holders of the House of Representatives had nothing to do with it. After all, we all know that budgets and finance bills originate in the White House. :\
Oh, why am I even bothering? :(
Come to think of it....didn't I see Bruno hiding behind one of the booster rockets just before lift off?
Actually the Columbia has only flown 20% of it's design life. It was supposed to fly 100 missions, however it only wound up flying 20. Also the Shuttles were at one time to fly more than 30 missions per year, now I think we're down to less than 10, possibly less than 5 sometimes. NASA never thought that the maintenance that we now do between flights would be needed, they never counted on needing to rebuild the engines every time it flew.
I saw the news report saying that the Columbia was first launched in 1981, had very outdated equipment and NASA had major budget cuts over the years, which in turn gave the fleets not so much maintenance as it should/could have. I feel that they should of got a new shuttle[but that costs LOTS of money of course], 20 years is long enough, it should of been retired and put on historical display or used for something else.
What do you guys think? I would like your opinions.
1917...The IRT subway line is extended to Ditmars Avenue in Astoria, Queens. The trip from Times Square takes 20 minutes.
Peace,
ANDEE
The REAL Ones!
Great Article in "Classic Trains"
Nice pics in the mag.
Elias
Actually, the current fleet of bi-level coaches are real two level double deckers. The older ones described in this article actually had only one floor level with seats staggered up and down to increase seating capacity. I remember these cars well. They were a unique design that was never copied on any other railroad as far as I know.
And that was the problem - the unique design. It was difficult for car cleaners to do a good job because each seating areas was an individual pit, up or down. Each seating area was a group of 2x2 facing seats, which many people did not like. People in the lower level seats were subject to water dripping from umbrellas on rainy days. When 85 foot MU commuter cars with 3x2 single level seating and a single flat floor were introduced in the early 1950's on the LIRR and NY Central, that design was considered superior from a maintenance and operating standpoint. The original LIRR double deckers lasted till about 1973 when the M1 fleet replaced them.
When Dad and I wnet into the city, I rode on the DDs whenever I could, unfrotuantely, they were usually the smokers. As soon as we would get off the train, Mom would say "UG, Youve been riding in the smokers again."
Oh well, at least you could hang off that bottom step as the train swept into the stations. Try doing that on those split levels!
Elias
I think the first time I rode on one was on a special train from Hempstead to the World's Fair. The train went to Woodside then reversed directions and went onto the Port Washington Line to the Fair. I'm not sure if it stopped at Woodside or if it even went as far as the station.
I rode those World's Fair specials myself...I don't recall them going as far as Woodside -- seemed like they went just far enough past the crossovers connecting the Mainline and Port Washington Branch at WIN Tower to make the reverse moves.
At fare control area N316A (46th Street station V/R/G, Manhattan-bound at 48th Street), there is a sign directing entering "G" passengers to the front of the platform. However, that sign is not at the HEETs (High Entry-Exit Turnstiles) but at the "staffed" turnstiles - which means that a sign intended for "G" riders is visible ONLY when the "G" does NOT stop there!!
Any other cases like that?
In late 2001, sign crews went around slapping 2 bullets on IRT local stations in Manhattan. At the part-time entrance to the 86th Street station, it appears that the gate was locked, and since the sign with the route bullets is behind the gate, the 2 bullet was placed instead outside the gate:
It's still there. (Hmmm.)
Although night-only service is usually not indicated on station entry signage (except, seemingly, on the IRT New Lots branch), one could argue that since the 2 stops at 86th at night, the bullet should remain. But this entrance is only open rush hours!
Unfortunately, I think don't have a photo of it (I'll have to check), but around 1986 or so, Forest Ave on the M used to have "M" and "J" on the sign over both stairways that led to the station (possibly also the other M stations, but only can personally vouch for Forest Ave). I have a photo of the general exterior of the station that shows one of the stairways taken around that time, but I'll have to check one day if you can see the J there. Years later they covered the J with a black sticker, which lasted until a few years ago when they rehabbed the station, and redid the roofs.
I wasn't even a full-fledged railfan at the time, but never understood why it had the J on the sign for a few years.
Anyone know why? To the best of my knowledge, the J never ran to Metropolitan.
Was this some kind of weird service they planned but never implemented?
Maybe for the weekend instead of the shuttle?
Or similar to the way the A has two terminals?
Somebody has to help us out here but I do believe that they ran a few J trains from Metro during the morning rush hours years ago. Maybe about four trains tops. The Fresh Pond yard was never full utilized after the MJ line was stopped so I think they used to store some J's in the FPR yard and ran a few in the earliny AM. It didn't last long.
The AP is reporting a head on collision between a passenger train and a freight train in Zimbabwe has occurred with a large number of casualties. 40 are reported dead.
Human error was cited as the cause. The trains were sent toward each other on the same track because of a "signal mistake." The signals on that remote stretch of rail line had been reported faulty since November.
Adding to the problems were the facts that the freight train was carrying flammable liquids and it is believed that many passengers were carrying cans of gasoline to sell on the black market due to a general shortage of gasoline in the area.
Does it surprise anyone that this gets far less press notice than the loss of seven persons on the space shuttle?
Tom
Actually, I read about this before the Shuttle Disaster, and it was on CNN, but you are right. And IIRC there was a fatal train accident in India this week too.
In the grand scheme of things, the seven are of little account, and I fail to see how they could be more important than the others, but death is a component of life, and not the end of the world. The seven will get more attention here, but in the hereafter they will all rejoice together.
(void where religious sentiments are not allowed)
Elias
That's old news.
When JFK was assassinated, newspapers barely afforded column inches to print anything else.
On the other hand, famine in China between 1961-62 claimed MILLIONS - and no one reported on it at all (the intelligence community knew about it thanks to spy flights and the earliest uses of spy satellites).
One person vs. millions.
And while we're at it, yesterday approximately 100 Americans died in automobile accidents, leaving behind grieving families. That's not news either.
Indeed.
When JFK was assassinated, newspapers barely afforded column inches to print anything else.
Which might be called the Aldous Huxley Effect. Although he was a famous writer, Huxley's death passed almost without attention because he died the same day as JFK was assassinated.
More recently, on the same day as the 9/11 attacks - or possibly the next day, which was practically the same in this context - about 15 American tourists died when a charter plane crashed in the Yucatan. That normally would have gotten a fair amount of attention, but given the timing it was scarcely noted.
Why Did the Kings County Railroad (Later BRT/BMT) route the Broadway/Jamaica Line On Fulton & Crecent St's instead of straight down Jamaica Avenue From Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) Station?
Probably because for many years the el ended at Crescent St. (1893-1917). The station was just north of Fulton St (City Line). Apparently there was no specific plan to run the el all the way to Jamaica; that was not built till the Dual Contracts funded it (1917-1918). And remember that Fulton Street bisects a dense residential and commercial area; Jamaica Avenue west of Crescent borders parks and cemeteries that do not generate ridership.
That's true. Still, it would have been cool to board a *JAY/ZEE* train at Force Tube Avenue. Only in Brooklyn are there street names like THAT!
Thanks for bringing that up. I have been wonderng this for years, does anyone know why this street has this bizarre name?
It has something to do with the underground conduit leading from Ridgewood Reservoir. I believe that the first part of the conduit (the "force tube") is located beneath this street; the remainder is located between or beneath the halves of N/S Conduit Avenue. Those better versed in Brooklyn history can further elaborate on this.
wayne
because there was a water pipe that ran from the ridgewood resevior under 'force tube av' to a gatehouse on, i believe, n. conduit av. pressurized water=force tube. ;o)
Of course! I feel so stupid now.
The water in the Ridgewood Aqueduct ran UP into the Ridgewood Reservoir, not from. Brooklyn got its water from pumps in what is now Nassau County. Hempstead Lake was a reservoir in this system. Sunrise Highway was also built atop the aqueduct. The Southern and Wantagh Parkways run mostly through land that was owned by NYC on account of being part of the Brooklyn watershed.
Hi. Trying to catch up on reading my posts. Very interesting post. Wanted to ask you or anyone else out there, I understand there was a waterworks/pumping station on Atlantic Ave. I thought it was at the intersection of Logan St. on the north side of Atlantic. Now I am not so sure. Do you know where the waterworks was located exactly? I looked at a picture of the Chestnut cut-off from the LIRR on Atlantic Ave. I see a big building with smokestacks but it looks to be at Atlantic and Euclid. I believe this may have been a factory which is now Blue Ridge Farms. Also, I believe I mentioned this on Subtalk before but am not sure so I will ask. Does anyone know of a large tunnel that ran from this pumping station on Atlantic to the Jamaica Bay in a straight north/south direction. Sound like a spill/run-off tunnel. My father-in-law grew up in the area and says that after they decided to not use the waterworks anymore, he and some friends went into the building. He saw these big, what he described as turbines in he floor. He continued to say that he went into this tunnel that went south of his position. Said it was wide and tall enough for two trucks side by side. Any infomation apprciated. Thanks.
Apparently there was no specific plan to run the el all the way to Jamaica; that was not built till the Dual Contracts funded it (1917-1918).
There was pressure to extend the El to Jamaica as early as 1903. Temporary El service from Cypress Hills to Jamaica over Jamaica Ave (on the surface) was started that year.
But the service was withdrawn in a year's time because of
community complaints about these big railroad cars running
down the street.
How far down Jamaica Ave. did the surface service run? As far as Grand Ave (168th St)?
Yes, it was to 168 St. They just had a book on ebay titled Jamaica Trolleys by. V. Seyfried. Excellent book. Don't know if anybody bid on it. Very detailed map in the centerfold.
The terminal station was called Cypress Hills and was located over Crescent Street just south of Jamaica Avenue. Check out the steelwork in this area, you can see evidence that the island platform was once there. Also the stub end of the terminal track is still evident.
wayne
It was the Brooklyn Elevated. KC was the Fulton Street Line.
Andy you the right answer. Fulton Street served a bigger market than you would get by having parks/cemeteries on one side of your tracks.
Does anyone remember when Force Tube Ave's extension into Highland Park was called Snake Hill?
Fulton Street served a bigger market than you would get by having parks/cemeteries on one side of your tracks.
Ain't that the pits! They can VOTE, but they can't ride the trains!
Now, now. The dead only vote Republican. Plus the dead get elected sometimes, too. Just ask the ghost of Mario Merola, Bronx DA. He died a week before Election Day, too late to remove his name from the polls, but he WON. See, lots of things get done by dead people. ;-)
The dead only vote Republican
That's because the great users of dead voters, Boss Tweed and Richard Daley, were Republicans.
Uh, I think you got that a little backwards, Paul. Tweed and Daley are probably turning over in their graves right now having been called a Republican (but, of course, even in their graves, they can still vote...)
He's correct, Paul. William Marcy Tweed, Boss Tweed, was a Democrat, and the Society of Tammany (Tammany Hall) is a Democratic clubhouse in Manhattan TO THIS DAY. The elder Daley (The Whole World is Watching) saw his policemen kicking a$$ from the floor of the Democratic National Convention in 1968. His son is Mayor of Chicago today, proving that BOTH parties elect fathers and sons. But dead people still favor Republicans...
Umm, I didn't want to make it too obvious by putting on the markers. ;-)
To illustrate what a Democratic city New York is, I remember one of the political clubs I worked with to restore Brighton Express service in 1964. There big mahout regaled me with how they were going to vanquish the enemy political clubhouse. The "enemy" were Regular Democrats. They were Reform Democrats.
Umm, I didn't want to make it too obvious by putting on the (SARCASM)(/SARCASM) markers. ;-)
To illustrate what a Democratic city New York is, I remember one of the political clubs I worked with to restore Brighton Express service in 1964. There big mahout regaled me with how they were going to vanquish the enemy political clubhouse. The "enemy" were Regular Democrats. They were Reform Democrats.
Th dead vote Democrat too. Especially in Chicago. They put Kennedy in the White House in 1960!
>>> They can VOTE, but they can't ride the trains! <<<
You are confusing Brooklyn with Chicago. :-)
Tom
Why Did the Kings County Railroad (Later BRT/BMT) route the Broadway/Jamaica Line On Fulton & Crecent St's instead of straight down Jamaica Avenue From Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) Station?
Jamaica Ave was a private toll road at the time the El was built (1893).
Even later there was opposition to the el on Jamaica Ave. When it was first proposed in 1914, residents wanted a subway. The BRT said too expensive. Next, they asked for an el on a side stret (like the later 91st Ave). The BRT said ridership on that el wouldn't justify it's existance.
Why are you conductors so upset that the t/o exam(if there's one) is o/c? Ya'll can take it too. The only difference is that you have first dibs on the job that's it. A conductor with a score of 72 compare with an off the streeter who has a score of 98 will get the job first.
In the case of ATO, how will route, train type, and GO conflicts be resolved? I thought that in a system as complicated as NYC's, with its many interlockings and shared trackage, software couldn't resolve the level of system complexity vs. the number and frequency of trains on the same service.
There's no fundamental reason software can't do all those things.
That doesn't mean that software sufficient to handle NYC's most complex routes exists yet, or that it would be easy to develop and test.
"software couldn't resolve the level of system complexity vs. the number and frequency of trains on the same service"
Of course it would. Computer systems have a much higer capasity to manage complex calcualtions then any human can ever calculate. Remember the first computers were used to help figure out tradgectories of missles and to help build the atomic bomb. The subway system although complex as compared to other transit operations is a far cry in complexity as compared to other applications for which computers are used for. Todays computers have remarkable power.
To use the phone network as an analogy. The phone network is essentially sets of tracks (copper, fiber optics, etc) that has many different interchanges(atm switches and various ancient manual switches, human switches at one point also) and shared trackage(phone lines) between many differnt phone companies. AT&T was forced to develope automated switching (track control) software to manage the growth of it's phone networks. Phone networks are now going through another upgrade to VoIP(voice over IP) which adds another complexity for which it data, vocie and video travel over the same lines as packets of data. Data travels over the IP protocall in packets. The packets don't arive in order. The challege for voIP is to allow the voice to stream and arrive so it is fluid . To do this the voice packets need to be prioritized and routed so that they arive in the right order quickly. These packets don't neccissarily all flow through the same pipe or fiber. A cost based decision on the route each packet based on which route is busy, distance of each route to the end point etc. There are far more packets of various types and priorities(trains), routes(tracks) and switches(interchages) then the NYCT subway system
"GO conflicts be resolved"
Assuming it's 2020 and the entire system is equipted with CBTC and all equitpment is OPTO campable. GO's would be a snap. It is simply a matter of installing the proper route information file into the central train control servers.
Prior to the full implimentation of CBTC system wide, trains would operate with operators during effected periods. Fairly rapid deployment of CBTC/ATO will occur once NYCT feel comfortable with the technology.
An early problem with BART's ATO system was block verification, which led to several minor collisions. It was recognized then that code loops weren't performing housekeeping functions in step with the demands of the system. Your post was excellent, but I'm still wondering if the permutations and combinations inherent to NYCT (including the human factor, i.e., human beings will mess with it) can be adequately managed. In your phone analogy, voice, data, and IPs travel over the system uniformly, regardless of origin, route, or destination. Also, the phone system suffers no perturbations from variable factors, in other words, since the system knows that everything on it proceeds in uniform fashion, conflicts within it are far less likely.
Assuming it's 2020 and ATO/CBTC is in operation, there will still be statistical instability inherent to the system. For example, in stormy weather a tree fouls the tracks but doesn't interrupt the data flow. Therefore under ATO the foul is "invisible" to the system server and stays that way until a train strikes it and creates an absolute-block code loop. The same holds true for persons at stations who jump onto the tracks. This, again, is a perturbation of the system that the server cannot "see". Another problem could arise if a virus was introduced to the system by a saboteur. Right now, the entire subway is virus-proof. ATO/CBTC offers no such protection, especially if the virus comes from a disgruntled TA employee. All in all, I'm still not convinced that NYC can handle ATO in a system designed and built for human hands and eyes...but still I enjoyed reading your post.
Good points.
I think viruses can be prevented by making the ability to download software very restricted and also registered (i.e., if you download a virus you get caught and spend 10 years in jail).
But I do wonder how existing ATO systems deal with the possibility of obstacles on the tracks. At least a human operator can activate the brakes and bring the speed down considerably before impact. I suppose you could have radar and match the reflection against a profile of what the track ahead is supposed to look like, but I doubt anyone does that now.
Perurbations, human interference, multiple retries, and feedback loops from heavy physical movement don't affect phones, but they do affect transit and, for comparison, the Denver Airport BAE automated luggage system, which also had an unprecedented number of merges. It was still ripping open suitcases a year after the airport was supposed to be open. Cost: astronomical, and only in dollars. Guess how many New Yorkers will be permitted to be tossed out of a switch by a computer?
Full disclosure: I'm very pro-ATO, but a switch is a bitch.
My NEXT item was going to deal with switches, but you beat me to it. It's true, too!
You definitely want a far lower error rate on train routings than on phone call routings. No one cares if one phone call in 10,000 is misrouted.
"Denver Airport BAE automated luggage system, which also had an unprecedented number of merges"
I hate to say it but that luggage system is more complex then the NYCT subway system to manage.
just imagine all the possible shapes, sizes, densities of the luggage that needs to be handles. There are far too many unknowns.
In the case of the subways, the switches are known comodities. They are either in one of the states. Left, Right or unknown
"human interference, multiple retries, and feedback loops from heavy physical movement "
Most of these problems relates to the tracks and not the software that controls the switches. Sensors on the tracks would need to be installed to detect humans on the track or an obstruction that would impede the progress of the train. If palform gates are not installed another sensor would need to beep the horn to alert passengers to stand back.
What happans if a rider jumps or gets pushed onto the track when the train is close? Just as now the person ends up under the train.
Well, *literal* human interference, ouch, as always. I mean operater overrides and "GO"-type things which would destabilize the computer's plans for a while. Also, by feedback loops I mean the left-right-maybe determination on the switch. This is a close call on a phone circuit, but it's more like trying to operate an arthritic muscle during a sprint in a close-headway event. You need ZERO error rate determining switch position WHILE you move it.
" For example, in stormy weather a tree fouls the tracks but doesn't interrupt the data flow. Therefore under ATO the foul is "invisible" to the system server and stays that way until a train strikes it and creates an absolute-block code loop. The same holds true for persons at stations who jump onto the tracks. This, again, is a perturbation of the system that the server cannot "see".
These are very good questions. Some sort of sensor system will be needed to be employed to detect obsticals on the track. It is for this reason it is hard for me to imagine ZPTO regardless of whether ATO is employed in the next 20 years.
With this said with a operator aboard, it will allow the MTA to thouroughly test thier ATO algorithms and then add the sensors into the algorithm over time
The sensors would essentially notify the central computer to slow or stop the train. In a ZPTO situation camera should be mounted on the front of the train so that central control can view the problem. If the problem proves to be nothing the train can proceed as normal. If there is a tree on the track. A crew will be sent out to clean it up
"Another problem could arise if a virus was introduced to the system by a saboteur. Right now, the entire subway is virus-proof. ATO/CBTC offers no such protection, especially if the virus comes from a disgruntled TA employee. All in all, I'm still not convinced that NYC can handle ATO in a system designed and built for human hands and eyes... ."
Not likely at all. It is far more likely that someone hijacks a train then introduce a virus to a mission critical system For a few reasons
Lack of opurtunity
1) Virus's exploit commonly available software for which a back door is found. This software is readily available for hackers to find holes usually through trial and error or through documentation that was designed to demonstrate how to link software together. The most common virus's today attack Microsoft crap which has tons of back doors. For example many email virus's utilize MS Outlooks ability to run macros and other programs. This is highly unlikely to happen on a software product which little is known about and is not attached to public networks
2)The computer terminal that have access to make modifications to the system will be locked up far away from the hands of all but the highly paid very senior system admins. I have had the pleasure of touring IBM's southbury CT data center when I interviewed with IBM which houses the main operating computer for JP Morgan Chase. You have a better chance of breaking into the White House and jumping into bed with George and Laura Bush then getting anywhere near these servers. We were practically striped searched and were forced to sign a waver before being allowed to enter the server room.
You would need Super-User system privilges to make any software modification, start-up or shut down the system. These privilges are reserved for only the most senior employees. Mission critical Operating systems such as UNIX can be configured so that only the super-user sitting in front of the main server can make changes.
Won't end users need to use the system to make minor operating changes?
Yes and those changes can be made through an interface. Those users would have no privileges to add software of any kind onto the system.
What about a recursive-loop worm program introduced from the rolling stock back to the server via the positive, or data, rail? Can the data rail be firewalled somehow? It's been my experience that viruses get sent into "secure" systems via the lowest common denominator, not the host server, which, as you said, has the highest level of security anyway.
Even if there are only super-users who can make changes to the system, and a whole platoon of ESU cops guarding the mainframe, still a determined saboteur will find a way: witness recent corruptions of the Internet, worldwide. I agree with you that it's highly unlikely, given the degree of protection such an ATO/CBTC system would probably recieve. But in the variable of human derangement, no level of security will stop a sufficiently determined person. Recall that Matthias Rust flew a little Cessna 172 into Red Square, USSR at the height of the Cold War, and the MOST secure air-defense network in the world (at the time) was unable to detect and shoot him down. Now THAT'S determination.
"witness recent corruptions of the Internet"
Once again over a public network
"recursive-loop worm program introduced from the rolling stock back to the server via the positive, or data, rail? Can the data rail be firewalled somehow"
Anthing can be firewalled. Nothing is fool proof. But once again the person would need a very high degree of knoweldge about a software product that is not readily available to tinker with on one's computer at home. I also highly dought that the roling stocks systems could do much more then communicate it's position and speed.
We'll see. Again though, your technical knowledge is impressive. You know your stuff! I even learned a few things, too.
Actually, what I've seen of sensors (browsing brainlessly at trade shows) is that they are, like cameras, cheap, reliable, and reundundant. You can mount them at track height, rat height and person height anywhere there's a headlight, and query them repeatedly so that you release a little brake air prior to going BIE or getting the computer all in a snit. I thing the collision-avoidance might be the slightly easier part, and more reliable than T/O's.
"The sensors would essentially notify the central computer to slow or stop the train. In a ZPTO situation camera should be mounted on the front of the train so that central control can view the problem. If the problem proves to be nothing the train can proceed as normal. If there is a tree on the track. A crew will be sent out to clean it up "
Actually, lasers would work the best to determine the integrity of the ROW. I mean the dang things can count the number of bowling pins left standing, or the price of asparagus, there should be no trouble to confirm the geometry of the row to a distance of say a half mile, which is sufficient to stop a train.
All of this being so, you still need a T/O to correct the issue. The train may stop short of a drunk on the tracks, but somebody is going to have to climb down there and give the guy the boot. Same if a tree falls across the line (they have trees in your subway? oh well...) He will have to climb down to the ROW with his chain saw and remove it.
The advantage of ATO is reliable on-time service when things are running correctly, the purpose of train crews it to massage things along when they are not.
Elias
Virus's exploit commonly available software for which a back door is found. This software is readily available for hackers to find holes usually through trial and error or through documentation that was designed to demonstrate how to link software together. The most common virus's today attack Microsoft crap which has tons of back doors. For example many email virus's utilize MS Outlooks ability to run macros and other programs. This is highly unlikely to happen on a software product which little is known about and is not attached to public networks.
Don't be too confident. The US Navy is now converting all their shipwide computer systems to Windows NT. That is despite the fact that a crashed NT network already disabled an entire Aegis missile cruiser, dead in the water, and they had to tow it back to port.
MVMs are already using NT. As I recall, a few years ago the MVMs couldn't handle the switch to daylight savings time, and most of them crashed. Someone who remembers that incident a little bit better can fill in the details.
I'm looking forward to the day when I'm on the #7 entering Times Square at full speed, when the onboard NT controller blue-screens and begins rebooting, while the train just continues rolling its merry way past the station and into the stub tunnel...
"I'm looking forward to the day when I'm on the #7 entering Times Square at full speed, when the onboard NT controller blue-screens and begins rebooting, while the train just continues rolling its merry way past the station and into the stub tunnel..."
It's very straightforward to set things up so that the train grinds to a halt if the software is not up and running. Still a bad outcome, but not like the one you're envisioning.
Although the trains would just keep grinding to a halt, if they're anything like my office. I'd pictur a three part fail-safe:
1. The on-board fails to handshake with the central scheduler and the scheduler looks again while the on board starts a tentative braking.
2. If the central computer can't get the on-board restarted, or it can't find the train, it just sends it into BIE.
3. TOTALLY separate from the computers is a front-end infrared sensor array (not laser like the stores, since there's nothing to read), that starts dumping the air to the brakes and then dumps it all when it sees the end of the stub tunnel coming.
But in the case of system server failure, these "fail-safes" could lead to cascade failure of the entire line network, whereas today one T/O in BIE sets his hand brake, inspects his train manually, clears with supervision, and goes on his merry way. In reverting to "manual" to clear a server failure, the time penalty would be considerably greater. In today's world, the words "the system is down" are an all too common phrase.
Yes. Thus the NYC problem. There might be a way to fail a single line dynamically, by yellow-signaling the distant trains, but when the cross lines tie in by switches, you can blow all those little lines' minds, no matter how you try to separate them and connect them only by handshakes.
ATO and automatic train routing are two completely different and independent systems. ATO can be fully implemented with manual "armstrong" interlocking towers if one saw fit to do so. ATO takes a route and then provides trains following that route with speeds to do so safely. Because trains do not pick their own routes you do not need to work automatic routing into the ATO system.
For one reason or another you will always have some sort of line dispatcher. All automatic route selection does is possibly provide for the emilination of some signaling jobs via consolidation. However it does create a huge inflexability in terms of operating practices.
While systems like Washington DC can get away with automatic routing aides as their system is so clockwork, it is not something that I would really recomend for the NYCS. The adoption of computerized routing in some places in the UK has led to many comical problems and the inability to handle things like permissive signaling or freight trains that are longer than any mainline block.
All you need for ATO is to tell the train at all times what speed it should be trying to attain and possibly a special setup to handle stopping at stations. The train's routing can be set by tower operators like always and the signal system then gives the train the speeds it needs to travel that route safely. The speeds would be pre-hard coded for all routes just like any cab signaling system.
Also, keep in mind that the ATO trains will have some sort of human presence. There is no sence letting a skilled professional go to waste so they can do such tasks as telling the system when to accept or not accept a station stop request or even taking manual control of the train.
PATCO ATO works very well (even if it is a single line system). All it uses is a 5 speed cab signal system and trackside transponders that tell a train to initiate an automated station stop proceedure. PATCO T/O's can take manual control at any time or when making special moves through work areas or against the flow of traffic. They can also "cancel" a station stop for the express trains and when some stations close off hours.
You're right, PATCO is an EXCELLENT example of a well thought out system. But as you pointed out, it's one line of a system where, again, the values input for train speeds, station stops, and block verification are all pretty uniform. Human T/O's to oversee the system, as PATCO has, are also a MUST. But I don't think the MTA will spend more than minimums to implement ATO/CBTC here.
Discrete value assignments for trains, stations and blocks are NEVER uniform in NYC, they are a constantly changing variable because different lines interact and intersect with one another. Recall when you were in school as a kid, you learned about "the mean, the median and the most". An ATO/CBTC system server must constantly assess these values in its evaluation of the state of the system. If in 20 years or so, this has been "perfected" as regards safety, I'll take another look. But today, I still believe ATO/CBTC is vulnerable to corruption, including its own internal conflicts. Just call me a Luddite...
Track circut based ATO that has a hard coded speed system with a failsafe 0 code is just about as incorruptable as you can get. A software controlled CBTC system borders on being downright dangerous. Software engineers do not require any form of certification or regulation, but their mistakes have and can kill as many people as a structural/civil engineer.
This is why I am against CBTC. The speeds need to be hard coded at the wire/relay/switch/IC level and then sent to the train via a channel that is resistant to interfereance or tampering. If you have some 30k a year contract techie entering speed control data into
"EZ-CBTC" (TM) from some lowest bidding computer support firm then you'll have trains crashing through curves at 50 mph.
Have you heard of software testing?
First you do extensive tests without passengers.
Then you spend several years with a fully certified T/O in the front of every train, ready to use the brakes if the train behaves improperly.
If NOTHING goes wrong for VERY long periods of time, then maybe it's safe to run trains without the T/O in front.
Needless to say, the above is an oversimplification. In brief, it is possible to adequately test systems before using them. Of course, it's also possible to test insufficiently.
Why are we not seeing SBTC *within* the envelope of block control and track-based maximum speed? For any segment of track, which is INCAPABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES of sending a signal to the cab higher than the posted speed, the computer send the *desired speed based on its schedule. Then it checks the following blocks to see if the train showed up.
Similarly, CBTC is layered on top of ATO. The computer sends the speed signal to the cab, but if the cab already has a yellow or red signal from the TRACK, it CANNOT obey the computer, any more than a human operator could. The computer just adjusts to a "pokey" train.
By your logic we would never see any bugs/problems with well funded commercial programmes like popular Microsoft operating systems.
You cannot know if a software will have bugs unless you test it under all possible conditions. Sure the trains will run fine under normal conditions, but on that one day when train A is at station 3 slightly over the IJ into block X45 due to wet rails and train B is comming up on block X78 2 minutes behind schedual with only 6 cars and train B gets a 50 code around the 10 mph curve.
This is sort of a rant, but still something interesting to think about. Currently, there are three booths at Kings Hwy on the Q line.
1) North side of Kings Hwy, open rush hours only
2) South side of Kings Hwy, open all times
3) Quentin Road and E 16th St, the terminating point of 3 out of the 5 buses that stop in this vicinity. (used to be 4 out of 5 with the B7) (an annoying walk to the two Kings Hwy booths)
Anyway, the proposal is:
1) Close booth and replace with 24 hour HEETs.
2) No changes
3) No changes
What does this leave us with?
1) Two Kings Hwy entrances right across the street from each other, both open 24/7, and both close to each other on the platform.
2) A Kings Hwy entrance that is admittedly more important than the one proposed for 24/7 HEETs that will now still be open part time and get less attention than the one that was originally only open rush hours!
I'm not really complaining. I don't mind walking one city block if it is even that. But wouldn't it make more sense to reopen the Quentin Rd booth to 24/7 like it was before 1996 instead of giving a seemingly useless booth right across the street from another 24/7 booth, additional 24/7 access?
I agree that the Quentin Rd booth should be a 24 hour entrance. The booth currently closes at 9 PM which is a bit early concidering many people work late and are often forced to walk two 1/2 blocks (one on the platform to get to the 24 hour exit) and 1 1/2 outdoors.
My guess is that the MTA wants to roll out the automation process slowly to allow the public to get used to the idea. The Part time entrance across from the 24 hour entrance is an easier sell to the public.
Another concideration is that the Quietin Road entrance handles large volumes of riders coming off buses in batches. It is wise to allow these people to become comfortable with the HEET's at other stations first. Kings Highway was one of the last stations around to have Metrocard installed. Ave U had metrocard nearly a year before Kings highway.
A big proble with HEET'is the location of the screen that tells you if your swipe was accepted. It causes delays because people wait to see if the fare is accepted instead of waling into the gate an it not move. If somehow a sreen could be in a place where a rider can view it as he moved into the turning section that would speed up the process
>>> I'm not really complaining. I don't mind walking one city block if it is even that. <<<
I cannot understand the problem. As you described it, the only change is that an entrance that is now only open during rush hours will be open 24/7 (with HEETs). How does this make anyone walk further than they do now?
Tom
Kings Highway Station has fare control areas.
Two of the Fare control areas are directly across Kings Highway from each other
The third is on E16th street and Qutein Road. 1 Block away from Kings Highway itself
Currently one of the Two Kings Highway(the street) fare controls is the 24 Hour booth. The secound Kings Highway(the street) is a part time booth that will be converted to HEET for 24 hour automated access
His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines
>>> His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines <<<
It sounds like the TA is not going far enough, but should convert both part time booths to HEETs. Probably the TA feels that is not a good political (labor relations) move, and is just closing the one booth with the shortest open time. Maybe the other part time booth will be closed next year.
BTW, what happened to the old one way rotating exit gates with the horizontal bars? Why are they not at exits when booths are closed, and aren't they easier to exit though than HEETs?
Tom
good question
i think crime is a factor in it
They are still around and in fact the TA is installing them at automated entrances as well. There official name is HXT High exit Turnstyles. They are more commenly called iron maidens. The Iron Maidens are needed to allow at least one exit only path. Currently at 34th street the biggest problem is when people want to exit and enter at the same time
The iron maidens are the HEETs (high entry-exit turnstiles), not the HXT.
I like to think of both as Iron Maidens. HXT's are the old Maidens. And the HEETS as the new ones.
>>> HXT's are the old Maidens. <<<
I would tend to think the term "Iron Maiden" would refer to an enclosing device, based on the original torture device. The old HXTs with their openings between all the bars are too open for that name.
Tom
And what's amazing is that the only HXT at Kings Hwy is at the 24/7 booth!!!
The Quentin Road problem seems to be that it is an entrance that is too small to have both HEETs and booths with regular turnstiles. So, they have to close it when the booth is closed. I suppose one option is to put in HEETs instead of regular turnstiles and keep the booth open with its current hours.
Is there a breakdown of the different types of booths that are subject to closing (ie: full-time, all-day part-time, and rush-hour part-time)? I haven't seen it in the papers. If no one has done this, I will try to do so on Monday if I have time.
I am also curious as to how many stations currently do not have booths for access to one direction either 24/7 (eg: 238 St. on the 1 Train) or part-time (eg: Bergen Street F/G) and how these numbers will increase in the future.
The Quentin Road booth could be removed entirely and the turnstiles replaced with HEETs.
I haven't seen a full list of booth hours, but the MTA web site gives the details on each station where a change has been proposed.
If the MTA's plans go through, there will be many more stations without attended access to both platforms. My home station, 86th Street on the 1/9, will have its only access to and from the northbound platform via three HEETs and one HXT, and it's hardly a low-volume station -- over five million annual fare registrations. I've also pointed out the particular problem at 125th Street on the 2/3, the designated transfer point to a bus to the airport. How many people will miss their flights because they can't get out of the station with their luggage?
If the MTA's plans go through, there will be many more stations without attended access to both platforms. My home station, 86th Street on the 1/9, will have its only access to and from the northbound platform via three HEETs and one HXT, and it's hardly a low-volume station -- over five million annual fare registrations.
I would imagine, however, that a relatively small percentage of those fare registrations represent northbound passengers.
I've also pointed out the particular problem at 125th Street on the 2/3, the designated transfer point to a bus to the airport. How many people will miss their flights because they can't get out of the station with their luggage?
That one is a potentially serious problem. If you do attend the upcoming public hearing, as you said you might, it would be a good idea to raise the issue (not that the 3-minute time allotment gives much of an opportunity).
I would imagine, however, that a relatively small percentage of those fare registrations represent northbound passengers.
A relatively small percentage of 5 million is still a very large number.
And each southbound fare registration can be matched up with approximately one northbound exit. With five turnstiles and a gate that the S/A sometimes opens, the crowd from one train has barely left the platform before the next train pulls in and the process repeats. I can't wait to see what will happen with three HEETs, one HXT, and no S/A to open the gate. Maybe NYCT should encourage doubling up on exit to increase throughput.
" Quentin Road problem seems to be that it is an entrance that is too small to have both HEETs and booths with regular turnstiles"
The issue is more political then a space issue. the Qentin Road entrance is the widest of all the entrances at Kings Highway. Kings Highway North Side is the narror entrance. QR entrance is flooded with large volumes of people entering when multiple full buses arrive at once. Exiting, both the expres and local ussually arrive at the same time at kigs highway during rush hour. Like I mentioned on a previous post, Kings Highway was one of the last stations to receive metrocard in 1996. The local politicians were angry that the mta was removing the swing exit gate at kigs highway. Currently the turnstyles at QR have a difficult time handling the exit volume. The s/a often opens the service gate to allow people to exit. There is room for more tyrnstyles at QR but the mta chose not to add more
In addtion the MTA could widen the fare control to the left(south).. Currently there are bath rooms and a large supply room where a newsstand once stood.
Well at Flatbush av on the LIRR, there are at least 30-40 unattended turnstiles, way down the LIRR platforms and such
30-40??? Isn't that an overestimation by, say, 3-4x? There are a few stairways that run between the LIRR and the passageway connecting the Brighton Line with the rest of the Atlantic/Pacific complex, and each stairway has one or two turnstiles (and no, they're not HEETS -- they're regular turnstiles).
David
30-40??? Isn't that an overestimation by, say, 3-4x? There are a few stairways that run between the LIRR and the passageway connecting the Brighton Line with the rest of the Atlantic/Pacific complex, and each stairway has one or two turnstiles (and no, they're not HEETS -- they're regular turnstiles).
Whatever the numbers, the fact remains that there are regular turnstile entrances that are not within the view of a token booth. Yet NYCT maintains that unstaffed station entrances must have HEET's. Could it be that the Flatbush Avenue turnstiles are okay because they're used almost entirely by LIRR riders, who are considered (whether correctly or not) more honest that subway pax?
could be that LIRR riders are considered less of a threat but me and my freinds have jumped many times
"Yet NYCT maintains that unstaffed station entrances must have HEET's"
This policy was most likely not in place when these turnstyles were originally installed. There was also a token booth that was torn down in the mid 90's that was inside the fare control in the hallway that connects the brighton to the irt facing many of the stairways. At the time of this booth closing the policy may have been different
Yes, I also beilve that LIRR riders are percieved as less of a threat due to the fact that most riders have combined monthly metrocard/LIRR passes. In addition it would take a bit of effort to walk through the lirr tracks to reach these stairwells which limits their use by non LIRR riders. Riders who jump turnstyles are generally not the brightest souls and the extra walk would deter them using the entrance.
In addtion I believe these stairwells are closed off at night which further reduces the risk of fare jumpers
Paris has a novel aproach to reduce turnstyle jumping. They have a small door at some stations that is about 3 ft off the ground that prevents people from jumping over the turnstyle. In the paris system the fare card is inserted into the front of the turnstyle and pops out the top. Once the card is inserted the door can be pushed out of the way and you can proceed through the turnstyle. It is still possible but not easy to crawl under or climb over the door. For this to be implimented the metrocard swipe would have to be relocated. This is less obtrusive then HEET's and suitable for high trafic entrances such as QR at kings highway. Combined with computer monitored CCTV this would prove an large deternt
This may prove to be a nice middle ground for the MTA. I will suggest the mta to look into it .
Those aren't HEET's though, those are turnsiles.
It is not even a block, more like 100 yards.
100 yards is more than a block.
Kings Highway Station has fare control areas.
Two of the Fare control areas are directly across Kings Highway from each other
The third is on E16th street and Qutein Road. 1 Block away from Kings Highway itself
http://www.mta.info/nyct/booths/pdf/bkn/kingshwy_q.pdf
Currently one of the Two Kings Highway(the street) fare controls is the 24 Hour booth. The secound Kings Highway(the street) is a part time booth that will be converted to HEET for 24 hour automated access
His comnplaint lies in the secound part time fare control on e 16th and qutein road which currently closes at 9 Pm and is the terminal for the B2, B31 and B100 bus. This fare control area will NOT be converted to automated operation and will Still close at 9 Pm inconviencing riders wishing to transfer to the above bus lines
The Quentin Rd side of KH station closes at 10 PM NOT 9 PM, but it would make no more sense to have the entrance/exit be open 24 hours a day because:
B2 stops running at 1 AM, B100 earlier at 12 Midnight, 1 AM and 7 PM respectively on M-F, Saturday, and Sunday.
There are more people that would benefit the 24 hour entrance at the north side of KH because they would not have to cross a dangerous street to catch the s/b B82 (The B7 does not run after 8 PM so it is not mentioned here) and will decrease the likelyhood of an accident when people run for the bus. Also you have some major stores open late on the north side (the first Duane Reade, Mcdonalds, a 24/7 Bagel shop near Ocean Ave, etc.).
I really think it's open for debate if the Quentin Road side should have it's weekend hours restored. Maybe 7 AM to 7 PM would be good enough on both days.
Don't forget the B31 runs all night. Anyone whose train comes in 1-2 minutes before the bus leaves will run like a madman to avoid a half-hour wait!!! Especially as this bus goes to an area not covered by an alternative.
"Quentin Rd side of KH station closes at 10 PM NOT 9 PM, but it"
It closes at aprox 9:30. I use this exit at night a few times a week.
"and will decrease the likelyhood of an accident when people run for the bus."
the same can be said for AVE U station. The MTA closed the exit on;y stairway that led to the north side of AVE U off the Coney Island bound platform. It quite dangerouse. One must though oneself infront of a car else it's a 20 min wait during rush hour(B3 come at least 2 in a row sometimes 3 in a row during rush hour kings plaza bound)
I can tell you that the Quentin Rd entrance was not open 24 hrs a day prior to '96. I think it was open from 5 or 6 am to midnight, I think. It was also open weekends, which I don't believe it is anymore.
Also, the B2 and the B100 stop running midnight or 1 a.m. now.
All the more reason to attend the public hearings and complain about King's Highway Booth Closings. If no one attends, then TA brass will assume it's OK with the residents,
He's not objecting to the booth that's closing. He's objecting to the booth that isn't closing and is thus retaining its part-time status.
Exactly!
What's wrong with automation at Kings Hwy north side rush hours? That's actually better since the entrance will be open 24 hours a day, now about Quentin Rd, I don't get why it is a part time booth myself.
Like David Greenberger said in a previous post, I'm not objecting to Kings Hwy north side getting 24/7 access. I'm objecting to the fact that Kings Hwy north side is getting 24/7 access BUT a more busier entrance at Quentin Road is still retaining its part time hours because there are no plans for HEETs there.
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I went up to the Tehachapi Loop, 150 miles from home, just to get away from the hustle and bustle of the big city. It wasn't a good day, really bad fog making drivng absolutely treacherous -- about 25-30 feet visibility in many places), and hearing of the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster on the way up. One train, however, had some VERY interesting items on it (yes, relevance to this board!!)
On a pair of 89' flatcars, covered by bright blue tarps with "Siemens" marked on the tarps in white, were what appeared to be a pair of subway cars.
Anyone know who is getting Siemens subway cars? They appeared to be about 75' long or thereabouts, and single-ended (in other words, intended to be married pairs). They had outside disc brake rotors on the trucks. Couldn't tell much else, such as door/window configuration due to the tarps.
I will post a shot of them at alt.binaries.pictures.rail later this evening (around midnight NY time as I have to go to dinner with my wife)....it's now around 9 p.m. NY time.
>>> On a pair of 89' flatcars, covered by bright blue tarps with "Siemens" marked on the tarps in white, were what appeared to be a pair of subway cars. <<<
If they were headed south they were probably going to the L.A. Gold Line.
Tom
Can't be the new cars for the Gold line if they are married pairs and 75' long...the light rail cars, the P2000s are articulated units that I believe are trucked all in one piece...and are a bit longer than 75 feet, IIRC...they might be the P2000s for the LA Gold Line, but I doubt they are 75' long...sallamallah, can you answer this question?
Carlton
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
>>> Can't be the new cars for the Gold line if they are married pairs and 75' long... <<<
Steve will have to clarify his sighting. I doubt that he ran alongside the train with a tape measure. The P2000s are 87' long, but have slanting ends which could cause an estimate of a shorter length. His reason for thinking they might be married pairs was based on a slope at one end and squared other end, like a slant R-40.
If they are heavy rail cars, they may be headed to the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach for shipment anywhere in the world. Siemens does make cars for both the San Diego Trolley and the Tren Urbano in Puerto Rico. I do not know the length of those cars, but neither of them appear to have slanted ends.
Tom
Ah.....San Juan Puerto Rico. I'll bet that's where they are headed.
They are dfinitely subway cars, and not light rail.
I've sent a photo via e-mail.
Did you ever post them to alt.binaries.pictures.rail?
Checked last night (actually early this AM, 1:43 AM, Baltimore time) and no posting by you was evident, unless you use a different name there than here
My apologies....
I didn't realize how tired I was and right after making the post here, went out to dinner, came back and promptly fell asleep.
I posted them early this morning, and they were there just a little bit ago.
Again, my apologies...was just tired from all the driving up there and back (about 150 miles each way plus the local gallivanting...)
>>> I've sent a photo via e-mail. <<<
Thanks for the picture proff. The shape under the tarp in your picture could very well be the same as this picture of the Puerto Rican Tren Urbano being delivered.
Tom
What is the status of the Tren Urbano in Puerto Rico?
Is it me, or are the R142A's on the 4 line filthy as hell. I couldn't believe how a brand new subway car got so dirty on the outside. You can still see the shine on the 6 line but the 4 was covered up in so much grit it lost its shine. What's the deal here, fellas?
Because of the weather the car washes have been closed. Have been since about the middle of January.
I would say the 142a's on the 6 are pretty dirty too. Don't know why but the R142's seem much cleaner than the R142as.
Any car numbers to verify that a R-142A was on the #4 ? Could be an R-142.
As stated before car washing ceases when outside tempertures drop below freezing. When temps rise above this latest deep freeze, car washing will resume.
Bill "Newkirk"
No R-142's on the 4 yet, only R-142A's, R-62's and R-33's. The R-142's are on the 2 and 5.
I haven't got car numbers, but it's very easy to tell the difference between an R142 and R142A.
1) Front storm door window is shorter on R142A
2) Traction motor at acceleration and braking.
3) Different types and characteristics on side LCD signs.
4) Side door window pane screws are outside on R142, inside on R142A.
5) Different openable cab windows.
6) No belt-notch under windows on R142.
7) Way different interiors.
Anything else?
The car washes are closed so expect that more often.
The one I was on last weekend was pretty funky car#7706 R-142A Woodlawn, saw this train over at East 180th yesterday.
THE SUBWAY SYSTEM:
THE IND/BMT ARE INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE IRT-
WHY DOESNT THE MTA JUST MAKE BIGGER STATIONS AND SHAVE PLATFORMS?
THE LIRR AND MNRR IS EVEN HARDER! THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT THIRD RAIL.
SO INSTEAD OF A TRAIN GOING FROM BABYLON TO NEW HAVEN, THEY NEED TWO OF EACH NEW CAR ONe LIRR TYPE ONE MNRR TYPE
WHY DOESNT THE MTA EMBARK ON A COMPATABILITY PROGRAM AND MAKE ALL SUBWAY AND RAILROAD INTERCHANGABLE-
THE COST WILL NOT REALLY BE A FACTOR- SERVICE WILL THOUGH BUT THEY CAN OVERHAUL WHOLE LINES AT A TIME IF THEY HIRE ENOUGH WORKERS TO OVERHAUL AN ENTIRE LINE OVERNIGHT
SORRY ABOUT THE caps
because the radii of the tunnels are not chageable without MASSIVE rebuilding efforts which could not be achieved while maintaining current service.
OTOH I do agree about the third rail issue.
These are hisorical incompatibilities. The MTA in today's harsh economic climate has neither the ability nor the political support to make systemwide infrastructure changes. However, I agree with you otherwise. T'would be nice to take a one seat ride from Queens Village to Stamford, or Wantagh to Wassaic. Progress is being made, though. Soon you'll be able to go from Penn Station to Port Jervis via NJT/MNRR. Stay tuned.
"Soon you'll be able to go from Penn Station to Port Jervis via NJT/MNRR"
When PATH WTC reopens. With a change of trains in Secaucus.
T'would be nice to take a one seat ride from Queens Village to Stamford, or Wantagh to Wassaic.
You forget, perhaps, that Conneticuit does not permit third rails at all.
Maybe LIRR under the wire is not a bad idea, but it would sure LOOK UGLY!
Elias
Catenary is GORGEOUS--particularly multitrack high speed mainlines
Well, it most likely has something to due with the age of equipment. To convert LIRR to match MNCRR or vise versa, the rolling stock has to be either modified or replaced in large numbers at a shot.
Now, if they do 1 line at a time, equipment modified for that line can't run on unmodified lines. Now if equipment breaks down now you as the customer suffered if no non-modified (or modified) equipment is available.
And we all know a contractor or MTA would take forever to complete one line, meaning service interruptions, etc.
Now which are you all for?I ain't saying its right the way TA drags its ass on things, but its reality.
well they are replacing equiptment right now with the new m7s they can over haul the entire system in the summer by declaring no service for a week-optomistic, but possible
Ok, yeah so they can replace all that rolling stock all at once right? You're not going to complain about paying more for a fare for them to do so?
well they can stockpile them and unleash them all at once
The agencies of the MTA used to be seperate companies.
[WHY DOESNT THE MTA JUST MAKE BIGGER STATIONS AND SHAVE PLATFORMS?]
You forgot to add "widen the A-Division tunnels" to your list. Or were you planning to run wide trains through narrow tunnels?
- - - - -
[...THE COST WILL NOT REALLY BE A FACTOR....]
Hello? Earth to Smugglerbuddy? Anybody home?
Enlarging stations and widening tunnels would include new digging; condemning and acquiring LOTS of property; and reinforcing buildings all over the place. All that ain't cheap.
Naturally, you've already done the preliminary engineering and environmental analysis, identified the costs involved, secured funding, and - last but not least - gathered support from politicians for such a massive yet largely invisible project for which they cannot claim credit (because it won't be finished in the short term). Please share the details.
But what is the point. NOBODY wants to go from Babylon to New Haven. They ONLY want to go to New York City (or near-by Bklyn-Queens or NJ). These are COMMUTERS they are going from their homes to work and back.
If someone living in Babylon gets a job in New Haven, they sure as little fishes going to move to CT.
Changing in NYC is no big deal! There is no way you can get a one-seat ride from Anyplace, Long Island to Anyplaceelse, CT or NJ. Buy a car, or change in NYC. simple. Best anyone can hope for is a unified NYC station.
Elias
I beg to differ. If one half gets the "dream" job requiring a suburb to suburb commute, that does not guarantee the other half will want to move let alone disrupt the kids. Item two FWI, VRE and MARC have implemented a reverse commute backhaul discount for persons commuting across DC. In turn the recent thread about Chicago Metra is exactly a "suburban only connector. Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travekers.
"Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travekers."
Uniform TICKETING makes very good sense. There should probably also be a discount for a suburban to suburban trip relative to the sum of the full fare trips to GCT.
But I just don't see spending all the money necessary to make a Stamford to Jamaica trip possible on a single train. Even with Airtrain, at any given time only a tiny fraction of passengers on a Stamford to NYC train will be heading for Jamaica. Most will be heading for Manhattan, and of the rest some will be heading for the Bronx, some for other points in Westchester, some for NJ, some for Brooklyn, and only a small fraction for for Queens and LI.
I would contend that a Stamford to Trenton train would have more appeal because that replaces a much longer and uglier drive than Stamford to some place on LI. But even that trip should just be done as changing at Penn (with well planned connections).
FACT, a run through train can have shorter dwell than a "terminating" train. Thus IMHO ultimately running through Stamford-Trenton makes more sense than the two trying to exchange passengers at Penn. If as others contend Penn is maxed out at present, then even with the diversions to GCT there will be little room for additional trains. In my more pleasant dreams, I see the Hell Gate route coming back to full four track capacity the whole way., and more tunnels under the Hudson. (After all Texans and oil co's are disenfranchised)
"I would contend that a Stamford to Trenton train would have more appeal because that replaces a much longer and uglier drive than Stamford to some place on LI. But even that trip should just be done as changing at Penn (with well planned connections). "
We already have a Stamford-Trenton through line -- it's called Amtrak.
[Last but not least, when Airtrain gets real, a ConnDot run to Jamaica would be useful for travelers.]
1. ConnDot wants its passengers to travel only within Connecticut or to/from Manhattan. It would never fund any kind of Connecticut-Jamaica service (nor should New York taxpayers be asked to).
2. Connecticut Limousine would yell bloody murder if the state started subsidizing a competing service.
A Connecticut-Jamaica line should run not through GCT but over the Hell Gate bridge.
[They ONLY want to go to New York City (or near-by Bklyn-Queens or NJ). These are COMMUTERS they are going from their homes to work and back.]
So only home-based work trips are allowed, and nobody is to make ANY trip for ANY other purpose? Is there to be no recreation, or family visit, or personal business, or any other "discretionary" type of trip? Must all passengers now certify that they are traveing to a job in the morning and from a job in the evening, as a condition of being allowed to ride?
When did the Gestapo take over the railroads?
So if 80% of riders on a given train are commuters into Manhattan and the remaining 20% are going to a wide variety of destinations in the suburbs and the 5 boroughs, you still don't have enough traffic to justify a through train to single destination.
When LIRR goes to GCT and MNRR goes to Penn, life will be so much easier for suburb-to-suburb trips than it is now. There will be simple train changes in Penn and GCT. That's Nirvana compared to the current situation.
The ultimate next step of direct suburb to suburb trains just isn't going to happen because the traffic isn't there.
When did the Gestapo take over the railroads?
When they started to PAY for equipment and construction!
You anin't going to get no politician to vote in favor of those kinds of expenses, for such little return.
Sure, people can go and visit mommy or even Branford, but that small customer base is NOT going to pay the piper.
Elias
The whole point of the system is that an LIRR train will go from babylon, to GCT, then discharge and take passengers thus becoming a regular MNRR train.
this way they can share equiptment, and instead of a train turning, it will just continue on north or west to New Jersey given the connection
and Second, there should be ONE agency for all the rails, including, NJT, PATH, Port Authority and MTA, and all the rest in the area, so they can best serve the metro population, like when they do a project they can do it in all their best intrests, in one big agency they can not only build better projects, but they can alsoask for more federal money, i.e. the NorthEast Trasit Authority has more weight than all the small agencies
also one fare system on all systems will be better
better yet, send the Bx34 or Bx9 into Westchester(or take the Bx16), tell them to get funpasses, use LI Bus, connect to any buses or trains in Queens, take them to the Bronx, and connect to whatever bus that will take them up north. Or put metrocards on the Bee Lines, that should take care of some of the Westchester and LI commuters for just $4 (or less) a day
You seem to be a bus fan. I've often speculated on the feasibility of running a local/express bus service along the L.I.E. in Nassau-Suffolk counties. That corridor has definitely been maturing lately. There are movie theatres along it. New Hotels, plenty of industrial areas. Lots of housing developments. So why not capitalize upon it?
Run it 24/7. The railroad does. Late night and non rush hours, 1/2 hour headway. Rush hours, at least evey 15 minutes. The locals ride along the (basically) completed service road. Expresses take the main hwy, maybe make stops only at park and rides. Terminals? East, exit 67, Yaphank Rd., at a new transit center at the LIRR station. West? That's a little more difficult. Since this would be a localized service (so as not to directly compete with the LIRR), it would have to be somewhere near the city line. Belmont Racetrack? Maybe the buses could just loop at Little Neck Pkwy.
I've often speculated on the feasibility of running a local/express bus service along the L.I.E. in Nassau-Suffolk counties. That corridor has definitely been maturing lately. There are movie theatres along it. New Hotels, plenty of industrial areas. Lots of housing developments. So why not capitalize upon it?
Run it 24/7. The railroad does. Late night and non rush hours, 1/2 hour headway. Rush hours, at least evey 15 minutes. The locals ride along the (basically) completed service road. Expresses take the main hwy, maybe make stops only at park and rides. Terminals? East, exit 67, Yaphank Rd., at a new transit center at the LIRR station. West? That's a little more difficult. Since this would be a localized service (so as not to directly compete with the LIRR), it would have to be somewhere near the city line. Belmont Racetrack? Maybe the buses could just loop at Little Neck Pkwy.
You'd have to have a number of branches off the line to serve the major employment centers and other destinations. Existing bus service in Nassau and especially Suffolk isn't frequent enough to serve that purpose. Adding the branches would make the simple local/express bus service not quite so simple anymore. Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea, it might be worthy of some study. In fact, I believe Suffolk Bus has tried a somewhat similar service, but with only a few buses and only in rush hour.
See, I would try to avoid that complication. Those connecting services would grow. Suffolk County has a few areas where there are multiple bus routes crossing 495, like in the Hauppauge area and Ronkonkoma. The one express service running now is the Suffolk Clipper. But the schedule is not real friendly to the ideal of this routing. I tried to cut and paste it in here (it's a GIF file) but couldn't do it. So here's the address:
http://www.sct-bus.org/schedules/s-110.gif
I would want to see the corridor itself be the main reason for the service. Not so that I could catch a bus from exit 61 to exit 55 and THEN transfer to a bus going down into Brentwood. That would be one good result of the expressway bus line, sure. But not the main reason.
Our office is a great example of discretionary trips -- visiting potential clients on Long Island, from Stanford. We take the ferry from Bridgeport because we have a car with us at the other end. Inside the City, we'll take a train, because a car is a nuisance. But unless a destination is right at a train station and the schedule is GREAT, we have to drive. We can't be at the mercy of one-hour, two-hour train headways. And the trains can't run more often hoping more people like us go to offices, stores, recreation in the middle of the day. Chicken and egg situation everywhere except Manhattan.
I really want there to be another form of suburb-to-suburb transportation than the automobile, but, unless T/O salaries go to 10 cents an hour or the densities in Ronkonkoma go to midtown Manhattan levels, neither of which anybody wants, then we need a new technology.
If someone living in Babylon gets a job in New Haven, they sure as little fishes going to move to CT.
I suppose they could drive to Pt. Jefferson, take the cross-Sound ferry to Bridgeport, and then Metro North to New Haven. It sure would be a long trip! Though it's worth noting that the ferry does sell monthly commutation tickets.
IF THE COST ISN'T REALLY A FACTOR, ARE YOU VOLUNTEERING TO CONTRIBUTE SOME OF YOUR PAYCHECK EVERY MONTH TO GET THIS DONE? OR MAYBE YOU COULD PUT IT ON YOUR CREDIT CARD?
(SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS)
:0)
Seriously, rail maintenance is a serious business. MTA's operational budget, which includes routine maintenance as well as operations, is over $3 billion per year.
What you're asking for is very expensive, and much of it is not cost-effective to do.
Finally, someone with some common sense. This particular set of postings may be a fantasy to some, but in the realm of reality it's just something that isn't going to happen. Because so many private railroad and transit companies once operated rail systems in New York/New Jersey/Connecticut, it should surprise no one that each system has unique rolling stock that is not compatible with other systems. Tunnel dimensions, propulsion and power systems, station platform heights, all differ. And since each individual system (e.g., LIRR, NYCTA, NJ Transit, PATH, MNCR) is big enough on its own, there is really no long term operational saving to having a common equipment type or pool. Now it would be good to be able to combine some train trips in order to provide true inter-city suburban service in the NY region, but the historical equipment incompatibilities will continue to prevent this in most cases (the Stamford-Trenton train is a good example of a schedule marriage that could happen).
Fact is, there are many more pressing problems that dreaming about common equipment sets that just aren't going to be reality. The regional transit agenceies have been concentrating on improving passenger connectivity between systems (e.g., Secaucus Transfer, LIRR to GCT), so that many inter-city trips within the greater NY region will become reality.
because U makin' sense'...........
Yeah, I know I should've posted this on Bus Talk but I never post there and thought maybe some of the SubTalk regulars would be interested. Anyway, here's the link:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030201/168/3605u.html
Sarge, I guess that's a GM Old Look bus since it looks like a colorful version of Ralph Cramden's coach...
To qutoe the Great One: 'And Awwwwaay we GO!'
>>> I know I should've posted this on Bus Talk <<<
You are right, as usual. But they have really done a good job of restoring the bus. I have a picture of it in its "before" condition in Alabama.
Tom
Was over at the MTA site and found that many reefed Redbird parts are available at the 'Surplus Sales & Salvage' site listed under 'memoribilia and collectibles'. Lots of the 'hot items' are there, but at fairly reasonable prices.(Unfortunately, supplies are limited). Here's the address:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales_new1.htm
Sweet....thanks!
Oh man, I have a question! If you choose to buy a side rollsign, will they give you the key!?
Could you buy stuff less than $250?
Yes you can, if you look at the listings. The hold bars are $15 each! What a bargain!
Read the fine print. Minimum order $250. Unless some of us were to pool orders, it's no can do for me. I just want LOCAL/EXP lenses.
*sigh* Damn that fine print... I'm surprised the MTA isn't that desperate to get rid of all those Redbird parts. They want to suck every last penny from us, don't they?
I'm sure that you would be able to drive a knobless sign with tools that you either already have or could be picked up at any big-box warehouse.
I've had my sign for a month - it's still waiting for me to get some of the grime off of the frame, so it's reading "Not in Service" at the moment.
Mark
Koi
Awesome! Wait, why is a "Car ID" sign $50, when they are currently like $10 at GCT? Oh well, the straps are only $15! Yay!
Obviously, the sales via the MTA online site ARE NOT related to the Transit Museum's sale of similar items.
ok, so the Transit Museum needs to get their act together pronto!
---Brian
I think we should organize a SubTalk GROUP ORDER so that we can get the 15% off. I don't want to pay for shipping, so this order should just be people who live in NYC and/or can go pick the stuff up in person (if that is allowed). Who's in? I personally would love to get a stormdoor and a strap, and if they can still be lit up, exp and local signs.
If you are interested, post here or email me so we can organize this group order ASAP before the good stuff is gone!!!!
Take Pride,
Brian
If you look at the storm doors they appear damaged and are minus their handles/locks...looks rather ugly to me. BUT, I doubt if the Transit Museum will be selling storm doors, so it's probably worth it for the die-hard Redbird fan...
I'd try to ask for a door with a handle and in better condition.
Or, rent some scuba gear and see if you can find something in a better condition at the bottom of the Atlantic...
I would love to buy that controller. Only that it's way over-priced. I bought one at the Hoboken 2001 festival for only $25. $75 is a little too much. We might as well pool our money together and buy a whole redbird car instead of pieces of one. Only problem is, where do we put it?
Hmmm.
My parents live out in the country. I could probably find some land out there to put it on. But why would they charge us? They aren't making any money by putting them on to the barges. They should just give us a redbird for free if we pay the costs to take it off the property.
---Brian
Like they say, nothing is given away free.
OOOOOooooo oooooooo!!!!
I want the "76th Street & Pitkin Avenue Exit Sign"!!!!!!
Paul...don't you know you'd have to go down there and retrieve it yourself? :)
Those prices!!!
Who does the MTA think they are? eBay?
Apparently, that's what they're basing their prices on -- the going rate of same or similar items at Ebay.
Those prices are ridiculous. $50 for a number plate? $300 for a side sign assembly? This makes those people on eBay look like the Dollar Store by comparison.
And there are 25 or 50 of every item available - haven't they ever heard of the concept of supply-and-demand? Some joker may be able to fetch $100 or so on eBay if the buyers think that this is a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity. When your selling 50 of these, though, I just don't see the demand being there at these price levels.
Jim D.
Thank you. Besides, wait for the 2003 Hoboken festival. You may get 70% off from these prices. I saw the redbird side sign for only $100 if I remember correctly. Maybe a little more, maybe less.
When is the Hoboken festival typically held?
JD
Usually around September.
Jimmy
The Hoboken Festival has gone under the name “Try Transit Festival” over the past number of years. The dates have usually been posted in the NJ Transit free publication FYI as well as online and in stations.
Usually, the date for the festival would be set some months prior to the event. So far, though, nothing has appeared in NJT’s online pages, and it is already close to the beginning of August. Rumors continue to persist that there will be no Festival at Hoboken this year.
If you click on the item and read the bottom it says
MAIL OR FAX YOU BEST OFFER.
Which means that these prices are negotiable. The prices listed are mearly list prices.
The sony camacorder I bought last year listed fot $1500 but i walked out the door with it for $900
"Those prices!!! ...Who does the MTA think they are? eBay? "
No.....OY VEY !
Bill "Newkirk"
I said here over a year ago that the TA should sell everything, through trolley museums as well if necessary, and call it a Redbird Relief Fund and give the proceeds to 9/11 victims/families.
How come there are only 25-50 of each of these items? Did the MTA forget how much we might be willing to pay for this stuff?
DANG! No sale ... but at least Salaam can get some on him - a WHOLE foamer glass! Woohoo!
Pity the "controller" is just the top lid and not the whole drum and switch assembly, pity also that the brake stand (pipes cut? who cares?) assembly isn't available either ... THAT'S what I woulda gone for, but would have needed the ENTIRE stands for their switches. Dang. Looks like I'll have to roll my own after all for BVE ...
Jimmy
Jimmy
It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart. Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues.
"It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart."
Exercise, m'boy, exercise! Stations that close? Geez, the train will barely move before it traverses that distance! On the red line (State Street) in Chicago, there's a stretch in the Loop where three or four stations are connected by the same platform and the train barely moves ahead more than a few hundred yards before stopping.
On the red line (State Street) in Chicago, there's a stretch in the Loop where three or four stations are connected by the same platform and the train barely moves ahead more than a few hundred yards before stopping.
That station is so cool! I've only been through there once, but next time I go back to Chicago, I'm going to check it out more thoroughly.
Take Pride,
Brian
I think it's kind of neat that if you miss the train, you can run to catch it at the next "station."
Now what you do is put a string of platforms on the *other* side of the tracks. Only these platforms are continuously moving at the maximum speed of the train.
Sound familiar? Where have you seen this before?
no clue what you are describing
Speer's Endless Railway Train, 1874. It's on the walls at Subway Sandwiches -- the elevated loop concourse over Broadway with the "Ladies Drawing Room" in the foreground. Sixteen miles an hour and the platform moved instead of the trains.
There are some science fiction stories, too, with continuous platforms with/without transfer trains.
Sure. THE ROADS MUST ROLL. Robert A. Heinlein.
For real, Epcot (and probably more of Disney). Some of the rides load by you stepping onto a travelator that moves at the same speed as the ride, so they don’t have to keep starting and stopping.
However, the speed is somewhat less than what we’re looking for in a train.
As for “The Roads Must Roll”, Heinlein never explains how you take a restaurant that’s mounted on a moving roadway going at 70+ MPH and turn it around!
Philadelphia's Market-Frankford line is like that between 15th Street and 11th Street. You can walk along a parallel concourse, or you can ride the train...
I have been to State st, I thought it was cool too, but kinda of ridiculous in a way too, cause it just creeps along then stops, ceeps
some more then stops.
As for NYC, I always thought that 69th/Fisk on the 7 was too
close to 74th St. Standing at 69th, it seemed as if the last care left the platform and the first car was entering 74th.
Now that is close!
The classic in Brooklyn is Cortelyou and Beverley on the Brighton. They are one (albeit, "avenue") block apart.
Well you are right up my alley on this one because I can remember one stop that took forever to reach. It was from 7th Avenue on the Brighton Express to Prospect Park Station back in the late 40's and early 50's. It seemed to take forever to get to PPS so we could jump off the train and head upstairs to Ebbets Field just two blocks away. When I rode the train in October it still seemed like a marathon between stations.
It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart. Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues.
Not so. I take the IRT from Penn Station to Houston Street each workday morning. Most times, I get the 2/3 from Penn to 14th, then transfer to the 1/9 to Houston. Doing so offers little or no time advantage over taking the 1/9 the entire way. I greatly dislike using the 1/9, however, because the quick succession of stops at 28th, 23rd and 18th is highly annoying. It makes the trip seem interminable even though the actual time loss is quite modest.
Well, isn't that the nature of the beast? Each of the local stops has a large population nearby. It doesn't seem right because a rider from Penn has the option of taking two express trains down Seventh to Houston. If you don't want to make local stops....take the express! Isn't that one of the benefits of Manhattan? You saying that the population density that made the original local/express configuration useful has decreased?? If anything, it has increased.
Well, isn't that the nature of the beast? Each of the local stops has a large population nearby. It doesn't seem right because a rider from Penn has the option of taking two express trains down Seventh to Houston. If you don't want to make local stops....take the express! Isn't that one of the benefits of Manhattan? You saying that the population density that made the original local/express configuration useful has decreased?? If anything, it has increased.
I'm not saying that the local stops aren't reasonably busy. They are, at least in the morning. We still have the more or less philosophical question of whether it was wise for the IRT designers to have put three local stations in the space of a mile. Today, maybe, it's turned out to be a reasonably good decision, but had there been only one or two station in that stretch people would have adjusted fine and today there'd be no clamor for building more.
The five-block distance for the local station on the IRT south of 42nd St. was probably done because that's pretty much the way the Manhattan Elevated had their station seperations set up when the lines were built. The BMT followed suit between Madison and Herald Square with the 28th St. stop, but their 14th St. station was further to the north than the IRT's original Union Square platform, so 18th St. was apparently deemed unnecessary.
The Manhattan El's spacing, in turn, was probably an attempt to replicate as closely as possible, the distances between stops, and the fact that the original IRT local trains were only one block (250 feet) long instead of two made the five block distances a little more easy to justify in terms of starting and stopping.
The original PATH Sixth Ave. line also followed these spacing patterns, with stops at 9th, 14th, 19th, 23rd, 28th and 33rd, so apparently the people who ran the companies thought they were far enough apart not to cannibalize customers from one station to serve another.
The IND did drop the 28th and 18th St. stops, but under the original Sixth Ave. entrance locations, the 34th St. station had an entrance at 35th, while the 42nd St. station had an entrance at 38th, so that's an even shorter distance than the 14th-18th split on the IRT. On Eighth Ave, the IND tried to create their own answer to putting in fewer stations with the 1150-foot long 42nd St. stop. In the era of the R-10s, with their jet engine/rock concert decibel levels, splitting the location of the uptown and downtown platforms was not a really smart idea for the non-hearing impaired, and the city engineers would end up violating their own rules about station placements further uptown with the 81st and 86th Street stops on CPW.
The Manhattan El's spacing, in turn, was probably an attempt to replicate as closely as possible, the distances between stops, and the fact that the original IRT local trains were only one block (250 feet) long instead of two made the five block distances a little more easy to justify in terms of starting and stopping.
The missing words in this paragraph are "the distance between horse-drawn streetcar stops." Sorry.
First off, NO IND train has a stop at 18 St. Second, the 6 Av express skips 14 and 23 St [when the B & D return to Brooklyn]. It certainly didn't bring the value down of those streets on 6 & 8 Aves.
I know. My point was, if it was good enough for lower Park Ave and Seventh Ave South, the design philosophy should have been followed with the IND construction.
Well, that was the IRT's philosiphy. Plus, you can't have stations at 18 St on the IND since it will be too close to 14 St and remember the IRT trains are about 100' shorter than the IND.
You forget, that original IRT local stations were only 3 car lengths long. IND design was for long local stops from the drawing board.
Arti
Well, you're right about that. The shorter car lengths along with the shorter trains could have only encouraged the closer local station spacing. I still think it's a good idea though to not have local stations too far apart. The IND system seems to have "stretched" the city somehow. I might even add that it was that design philosophy that has encouraged the "super-block" style of city building. Took it out of the concept of a city made up of distinct neighborhoods all contributing to the greatness of the whole.
The old Manhattan els did have stations closer together, but remember then, the trains were also shorter. When the IRT and BMT lions were built, the trains were aslo shorter, but I do believe that longer distances between stops (particularly in out-lying areas) is a good thing rather than a bad thing.
My daydreams (read the Myrtle-fifth Avenue Subway) posit that all trains coming from the outer boros will be express in Manhattan, and only those trains beginning at South Ferry (Well Battery Park, actually) would be local in Manhattan.
the Express Stops are:..................The Local Stops Are
Brooklyn Center
Wall Street
World Trade Center
Chambers Street
..........................................Spring-Prince
..........................................Washington Square
..........................................14th Street
..........................................23rd Street
34th Street
42nd Street
53rd Street
63rd Street
..........................................116th Street
..........................................125th Street
..........................................135th Street Bronx
..........................................149th Street Bronx
161st Street
Bedford Park Blvd (C) (D)
Mosholu Parkway (4)
And Stops to CoOp-City via Gun Hill Road etc.
Thus you will see that trains from the hinterlands make express stops in the main business ares of Midtown and Downtown, and leave the rest of the stops to a local service designed to serve close-in residential areas. I suspect that I would make platform arrangements at the midtown stops in such a manner as to discourage local to express transfers.
Elias
Union Square LOCAL?? 125th LOCAL?? What are you transferring to, a helicopter?? I'd drop the WTC and Chambers from your list first; they are busy, but most riders get there FROM someplace else and if they need to get there on this line, they can switch to the local at wherever their express crosses this line. More consistent with your philosophy that the express is to get the outlying riders across Manhattan, not to get the busy destinations unloaded from the expresses.
"Union Square LOCAL?? 125th LOCAL?? "
Yes, LOCAL! As far as 125 St goes, it makes one stop at 116th street and the NEXT STOP is 63rd Street. THATS 53 Block NON STOP! they'd hardly know that they were on a local!
The Express trains come in from CoOp-City and Northern The Bronx ;), *those* passengers are hardly interested in 125th Street, and those that are can change to the Local at 161st Street.
These are *New Technology* Subway cars, and run at 80 mph. They *need* some room to run, fellah.
The Express Collects passengers from about 12 stations, and runs them into Manhattan. The Local collects passengers from about 6 Stations north of 116th Street and from another few stations between 34th and Chambers st.
It is a matter of Load Balancing.
Elias
Okay, you're right on 125th. I'm thinking West Side, since I come in on the Concourse, but the IRT lines all switch at 149th or 161st. Since they're narrow, make 'em fast.
One other thought. There is a pattern of average 14 stops -- cross another line -- 14 stops -- reach Midtown complex between 14th and 63rd. What about "near" and "far" expresses, so that practically all the borough lines are expresses and half of them are like the 4 or C in Brooklyn or the V in Queens, stopping at the end of their local run and letting the express continue to make the local stops further out? Cut back on the N, the J, the 6, the D, the Bronx 1, and make them all express through downtown. Make the shorter lines the downtown locals.
Brother Elias: who do you know as the 'New Technology' new tech tech?
I can serve 'Holy Eucharist 1' long before my trainset goes from 59th th 125th. On my last job, I didn't know about unlimited Metropass and used a 'Oxygen long based scooter' with a backpack filled with tools and electronic equipment. A trip from Brooklyn to the Bronx would allow enough time for the 'Mossiach' to return with two Kosher pizzas from 13th Avenue (no offense intended to anyone.)
As for a matter of load balancing, that is probably the nastiest/dirtiest/greasist job when you do Redbird Tech. If you measure a defect in the load sensor valve above truck # 1, you have to climb over the truck to make adjustments with a wrench while watching your gauge hanging in the dark.
Too bad I didn't have the taste for pizza years ago...it would have killed me. The Lord saved me from a little known metabolic disease
and I want TA to send me to school in Coneys Island....I want Kosher pizza because it is 'pepperoni free.' Sorry TA, pizza is improved foccachia and should not be adulterated 'supremo.'
The next pick is coming up. Maybe I stay where I am or maybe I move on to somewhere else. Chances are it will be in the Bronx or Manhattan(207)and hope to keep Sundays free. CI Peter
"It still makes more sense to me that in Manhattan, local stations should be no more than 4 or 5 blocks apart"
Then what good is a subway then?? At that rate you mine as well take the damn bus. Subway means faster commute, not a tip toe commute.
"Gives more areas direct subway service, allows for convenient transfer to express service if your journey goes beyond the next express stop, and just seems fitting for the density of population and industry. "
Well have you ever thought about walking?? Some stations can not be built at certain locations because of different reason such as sewers, and maybe buildings that are above it that doesn't have good foundation, the train's vibration can probably cause a collapse.
"The IND skipping 18th and 28th Streets has always annoyed me. I know the reasoning was for speed. But it did reduce the value of those streets on Sixth and Eight Avenues. "
Hope on a Bus!
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
If properly run, riding a train that stops every five blocks will beat a parallel bus line that stops every two blocks. The point would be, allow more access to the mode of transit that's a step up from a bus.
Yeah, I walk my a** off. I've walked from Van Cortland Park to Scarsdale. I used to walk from Cedar Street near the W.T.C. over the river and through the woods to Bensonhurst. Plenty of times I'll get off a few stops before my station coming home from work. Nothing to it. I walk from Penn Station to the Village all the time. I've walked all over and around Staten Island. I love walking. But we shouldn't confuse personal fitness preferences with designing transportation arteries in the densest of American cities.
Oh yeah. I doubt very much that the reason the IND doesn't have stations on 18th Street and 28th Street is because of geological or utility line reasons.
A bus couldn't possibly handle the crowds at some of the stations that have been brought up in this thread.
On average, it takes about 30 seconds longer to make a stop than to bypass one. Live with the half-minute penalty, take the express, or move a few stops closer to your destination. Manhattan owes its low car ownership rate (22% of households in 2000) largely to a convenient transit system.
Thank you for pointing that out. That's right, the load factor of the train beats the hell out of the bus form factor. Look at it this way: the trains enables "huge chunks" of humanity to traverse the urban landscape in the most efficient fashion. The city is a giant mechanical organism. Trains are its lifeblood circulatory sytem. That train stopping every five blocks or so is just the status quo of the city. Buses are like....free radicals.
The notion of express trains running parallel to the local stations...
ahhh....that's what separates us from the run of the mill animal. The logical efficiency of it leaves me in awe. Think about it. It allows for increasing population density at each local station (with, of course, the caveat "if run efficiently") to be served without needing to expand upon the basic setup. You can't beat that in the built up Big City. The four track river of steel. Local stations every quarter of a mile. Perfection.
A side note. If the reality of "time saved" via switching to an express is not so much actual time saved, so be it. If you're going more than 30 blocks or so, just the appearance of making time, of passing other trains heading in your direction is pleasing, uh, psycologically. And those folks waiting on those local platforms? Don't worry, they'll have the opportunity to experience the same effect after THEY change to the express at the next stop. Unless of course they're going to another local station. In that case, well, no problem. Just stay on board.
The correct answer to a newcomer (like me) asking "Why do you switch to an express when there's no seat and it takes longer?" is "It's a New York thing. You wouldn't understand."
That would make sense if the trains were short, as they were in 1904. But if the system is using 10 car trains and is 600-700 feet long, it makes no sense to have stations that close together. The front of the train would almost be entering one station before the end of the same train left the previous station.
Maybe I'm misguided. But I like the sound of that....
Now that the tokens are going to that big turnstile in the sky, will everyone know what those S - U - B - W - A - Y letters at the top of this screen are made out of? Will we have to replace them with MetroCard origami letters?
* sniff *
I don't think so.
The tokens are classic and will never disappear. At least I hope so! :D
Lets replace them with a pic of a R142/A, or R143 side sign! :)
Well, first, that's not the subtalk logo, it's the logo for the entire site.
Secondly, if they stopped using tokens tomorrow, how long do you think it will take before people REALLY forget what they are?
I doubt we're in any trouble keeping it around for a while longer.
My pacemaker thanks you.
It would be funny as a symbolic gesture on the day that tokens are ever replaced that you change the logo to be made up of MetroCard letters if only for just that day.
man some of you are bossy
Cars 8121-24 will be hooked up to different set of R143's while doing a 1 Year test run to get information about the L line. I don't know if 8117-20 are going to be doing this or are TA doing something eles with them. If I find out I will post it then.
Robert
One more thing about CBTC on the L, I have already spotted one CBTC relay as you enter Halsey Street south bound. There are also other places that are partley done with the wire inplace but not box there for the Relay.
Robert
Robert:
Odds are that an upgraded ("second generation") version of CBTC hardware is being installed on a third set of R-143s, incorporating knowledge gained to date through tests conducted with 8117-8124. You should see this equipment moving around as segments of the project are completed.
It indeed sounds like the upcoming L line GOs are related to CBTC installation. Firm progress at last!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
As a new user living in Brooklyn, I am confused by the following on the Brooklyn-bound 4 train:
Stops Late Night Only
1am to 5am Manhattan
11pm-6am Brooklyn
My stop is Grand Army Plaza. A Brooklyn-bound 4 that I picked up at about 12:20am on a Sunday morning at Lex/59th ran express in Manhattan, and I realized it was running express in Brooklyn, as the announcements at Atlantic Ave said that the next stop was Franklin Ave. Of course, this meant bypassing the next 3 local stops, including Grand Army Plaza. Now, I thought, shouldn't this train be running local in Brooklyn after 11pm? Otherwise I could have / should have just taken a 2 train...
Does anyone know the REAL rules for express/local?
Thanks,
--Steve
P.S. I already checked the 4 schedule on the MTA website, but I couldn't determine how Brooklyn local service was related to the 11pm cutoff...
i do not know, but I suspect...
That it has to do with when the train departs its terminal (for this train, in the Bronx).
In other words, an EXPRESS train does not become a local train just because the clock ran out on it.
I think you can find a timetable on the MTA website that would specify when the first train ran local, and even then you would need to assure that you were on that train, and not the previous train running late.
Elias
Since the #3 runs from 148th Street as late as 11:30 PM, there's no need for the #4 to run local in Brooklyn until after midnight.
The last #3 train from 148St is 11:03pm. Due to arrive at New Lots at 12:03am.
Da Beastmaster
I should clariy that last the #3 train out of 148St on the WEEKDAYS is 11:03pm. Due to arrive at New lots at 12:03am. At that time, the #4 train is express in Bklyn to Franklin Ave.
Da Beastmaster
Looking at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf/t4cur.pdf
the last #4 train from 42nd St on Saturday night that runs even partially express in Brooklyn is the 12:03 AM.
So I guess the train was running late, or they're not obeying the printed schedule. In any case, local in Brooklyn after 11 PM seems contrary to the schedule.
During hours other than overnight the 2 and 3 run local and the 4-5 run express. If there are G.O.s then this can change. Since the 3 does not run overnight the 4 is extended to New Lots and runs local.
When the 4 runs local in Brooklyn they mean it makes all stops from Franklin to New Lots.
There might of been a diversion; maybe track work; which sent trains onto the express track for some late nights. Normally the 4 makes local stops after 11pm when it replaces the 3 in Brooklyn.
The 4 line still runs express from 11 PM to 12:30 AM, New Lots bound only, from Atlantic to Franklin, local from Franklin to Utica. After 12:30 AM, the #4 runs local in Brooklyn.
I have thought long about routes, but how about some fantasy equipment? We all long for the return of the railfan window. But what about the return of the BOTTLECAPS! I liked the Bottlecaps, I liked standing between the cars and holding the grips.
Well, I do not suspect that riding between the cars is a good idea, expecially since I want to bill my new controls as *SAFETY CONTROLS*, but railroads need to be run using man-sized levers not whimpy little computer buttons.
So, my *Safety-Door-Controls*! They are in the same conductor compartments as they are now located, but first there is a step UP to the operating position. Next the windows do not drop down, but rather are enlarged, and open outward like the drive-in window at McDonalds.
But these are not whimpy little windows, they have FRA armoured glass in a strong stainless steel frame, and the 'bottlecaps' are attached to the outer edges of the windows, which are opened outward after the train stops.
OPENING THE CONDUCTOR'S WINDOW opens the train-line doors.
The conductor is now standing head and shoulder above the crowd on the platform, and can see clearly to close the doors and to observe the platform.
OPERATING THE BOTTLECAPS closes the doors, first the rear section and then the front section. When the doors are closed the....
FIRST INDICATION is passed to the T/O. The train may move at no more than 8 MPH. (A FAST walk, the conductor can see if anyone is being dragged) The Conductor my stop the train using the emergency brake if necessary. When the movement of the train is determined to be safe...
THE CONDUCTOR PULLS THE WINDOWS CLOSED which passes the...
SECOND INDICATION to the T/O and the train accelerates smartly to 75 mph (or whatever ATS is on *your* line).
If the conductor fails to close the windows within 150' of movement, the windows close automatically pushing the conductor inside the car. If the conductor is holding the window against this action, the train goes BIE.
The elevated position of the conductor allows better visualization of the platform, as well as protecting the conductor from assault from persons or tossed objects on the platform. The outward opened window also serves to protect the conductor from these things.
That is how I'd design the Conductor's position.
Elias
Needless to say, you got my attention with the title. Heh. Perhaps a little additional armor for the window might be in order so that it takes out pillars (rather than pillars taking out the window) if not closed in time. There's the little matter of observing the platform as you're rolling out, and we'll conveniently forget about the potential liability of an outward window smacking some "customer" as the train rolls out.
I'm one of the throwbacks to the stone age and while I'm older now and concerned about climbing on the outside of cars like a monkey (wasn't when I was 19) ... and for "observing" it was MUCH safer than sticking your head out of a window if you weren't TOO tall, and you could duck in real fast if you had to. Given a choice, that's why I preferred the Arnines myself over the newer cars - you could SEE better from up there above the people on the platform and could determine faster if nobody was getting dragged.
But you could just as easily have fallen if you weren't careful.
I'd like to see a return of trigger boxes, too. Always got a kick out of watching conductors work the doors between cars.
It was real work, kept you thin. :)
The effects didn't last, though :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I left there 30+ years ago, I have an excuse. But I tell ya, being two separate gorillas now ensures nobody screws with me, or I'll SIT on them. :)
Aren't you glad you didn't work the R-1/9s as a conductor on a local route?:)
One direction in the Bronx was local, and often ended up on the local tracks on the Brighton as well. But yeah, all stops would have been a lot worse. But then again, at the end of the day, chances are I'd be able to LIFT an Arnine. :)
I wonder if any conductor was ever tempted to just stay on the step plates all the way from 116th to 72nd on a s/b local. After all, the doors opened to the right for all seven local stops.
It was noisy out there, and if you got caught, you'd go out of service on the spot. You were required to step down before the end of the platform and CLOSE the gates.
In other words, put the guard chain back where it was, right?
You betcha. Dealing with THAT was more annoying than any other part of the job. Bottom first, float it around, drop it down and turn. What a PAIN IN THE BUTT ... over and over and over again. :)
How about a pair of all-glass panes that open like a metro bus (swing out from center and pull back and pocket back to sides)? Full view when open, part view while closing, absorbs impact from/to obstruction/loitering platform passenger and slams conductor back inside if it hits trackside obstruction. Easy to interlock with your door and signal controls, too.
>>> That is how I'd design the Conductor's position. <<<
Why is your design so backward looking?
Why not the following:
CCTV cameras pointing fore and aft mounted at the roof line at the C/R position, (possible extending a few inches when stopped) with high resolution magnifying (or zoom) lens pointing up and down the trainline, delivering color pictures to a console in the conductor's cab with a default split screen, expanding to full screen fore or aft with a push of a button. This way the conductor neither opens his window not sticks his head out of it in normal operation. This way the conductor looks both ways before closing up and watches the whole train as it pulls out of the station.
Dare I say it? It would even be possible to transmit the pictures to the front cab and have one person do both T/O and C/R jobs.
Tom
I'd go for hovering droids with built-in cattle prods which could quickly zizz up and down the trainline, and anybody caught holding the doors or wedging a baby carriage in there would be administered a proper zitz. Upon a clear trainline, it would whistle and provide the indication fairy with a tip. Small automatic weapons would then enforce the "please stand clear of the already closed doors" ...
Then again, you'd have to be a C/R to really appreciate this enhancement.
Has the MTA ever thought of having Platform Screen Doors for NYC Subway Stations? I think it would be best to have Platform Screen Doors at the most busiest Stations, because of the volume of people, they definately need one for Bway ENY Station, because I notice that the stairs are next to the tracks, and I find that very dangerous, a couple of times, I thought I was gonna fall over because of the volume of people on that platform.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
The problem is that because of the system's age, if you put doors on the platform, especially on the B Division, you'd have problems with the doors of the 60-foot cars being at different locations than the ones on the 75-footers (and I believe even the doors on the new R-143s don't perfectly match up with the door positions on the older 60-foot cars in the fleet).
The IRT would be a little easier to work with, but not perfect -- the center door positions on all the cars would match, but the end doors on the R-62s, the R-142s and the remaining Redbirds are slightly different (though a wide enough door opening might solve that problem).
Well the 75 ft. Cars are gonna be gone soon (sigh), maybe they can work with the IRT division for now, because I see that during rush hour there tonssssssssssssss of people on the IRT and that can cause a problem with safety.
Well maybe the Platform Screen Doors can work on the L Line because in a few weeks or days the L Line will be 100% R143 and the stations can finally be installed with Platform Screen Doors. The only way that this will work is if the Platform Doors are wide enough for both 75' and 60' Cars in the B Division.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
What's the definition of "soon" for the demise of the 75-foot cars? It appears that even the 1,700-car R-160 order (assuming all options are taken) won't cut into the 75-footers. The last of the 75-footers (R-68A) are only about 15 years old and should last another 20 years easily (most likely longer, assuming that SMS continues).
David
Today I noticed that Kawasaki had reconstructed their website, it looks much better, I also like the information on the R143 Subway Car.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Thanks, I just checked it out. Really cool! I like the reviews they gave the R-143's and the shots of my favorite, yet aging, Philadelphia Trolleys in their red, white and blue livery.
Chuck Greene
I agree, I like the shots they took for the R143's, I like when the R143 was being built and the pic of all the business buildings in the back of the R143 as it was going, thats a great shot!
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
But they have a picture of an R62A on the 7...
No, that's a picture of a brand new R-62 on the 7. I also found it strange they couldn't get a picture of an R-62 in its home turf on the 4.
Did you see the picture of the R-142a with the tall buildings in the background? where was that picture taken other than that a good web site-far better than the last one. Thanks
I like that pic also! Kawasaki did a good job on this website, the old one sucked badly.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The site lists the width of the 143 as 8' 7".
It looks as if some of the specifications of the R-142A and R-143 were switched with each other. For example, the heaters in the R-142A are listed as being 16kW, while those in the R-143, a larger car, are listed as being 11kW.
David
If I'm interpreting the specifications correctly, both the R-142A and the R-143 have a greater seating capacity than seating-and-standing capacity.
Now there's a trick.
This afternoon on the northbound G, arriving at Roosevelt Avenue, the train operator/conductor announced the usual stop-and-transfer info - and then repeated the announcement in Spanish.
I appreciate the usefulness of Spanish announcements - especially at Roosevelt Avenue station. In fact, I've had to draw on my (very rusty) high-school Spanish several times to assist fellow passengers.
However, I also have to wonder: To what degree does the rulebook allow non-English announcements?
As far as I am aware, the rule book is quite specific in saying that ALL announcements must be made in English.
David
"As far as I am aware, the rule book is quite specific in saying that ALL announcements must be made in English."
Since the T/O did make the announcement in English, that requirement was satisfied. The additional Spanish announcement was a customer-friendly practice which deserves positive recognition.
I seriously doubt that the TA would choose to interpret the rulebook as banning any foreign language announcements (so long as the English one was in fact made) and punish the T/O for it. However, there are meat-headed supervisors out there...
In NYC, no good deed goes unpunished. If one conductor makes Spanish-language announcements, advocates will demand to know why other conductors are not making such announcements.
Then other native-language speakers will begin to demand the same. Look at the ballot.
[Then other native-language speakers will begin to demand the same.]
That would become a very tall order very quickly. Queens alone had 157 nationalities in the 1990 Census, and probably has more now.
I seriously doubt that the TA would choose to interpret the rulebook as banning any foreign language announcements (so long as the English one was in fact made) and punish the T/O for it.
Why not? This is America, not Spain or Mexico. We speak American English here. When I lived in Europe I didn't expect people to make announcements in English for my benefit, I learned their language, and those from other countries who choose to live here should do the same. No one's putting a gun to their head and telling them they have to stay; if they can't be bothered to learn the language then they should pack up and go home. I welcome immigrants who are willing to work and incorporate themselves our society; I do NOT welcome those who wish to insulate themselves from it, to reap its benefits without assuming its responsibilities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I lived in Europe I didn't expect people to make announcements in English for my benefit
It's a popular line that "you don't need to know any languages if you're touring Europe, everyone speaks English." Nonsense! Outside of certain tourist locations, you have a hard time getting by. We were on a DB train, and the conductor asked us a question. Despite a degree in German and having lived there six months, my wife didn't know what the question meant, since it contained a word she'd never encountered. The conductor gave her zero help, didn't try to rephrase the question--this on a mainline train. Then he laughed at her when she pulled out a German-English dictionary.
In tourist places, some will try to cheat you if you look like you'e unfamiliar with the language and/or customs. At a tourist trap I bought a postcard and the woman asked me for fünfzig Pfennig. I knew perfectly well how much that was, but when she saw me looking at my money to pick out a mark, she took the coin, smiled, closed the register and said "Danke" with s big smile. When I asked "fünfzig Pfennig?" she suddenly remembered that I was supposed to get change.
Don't even ask about France.
Unfortunately this is a much diferent evironment than that of Europe, where foreign language speakers are already being catered to (look at DMV, driving test offered in the more prominent languages - now how is that when signs are in English?? Ok shapes but still...) Some City agencies pay a bonus to those who speak Spanish (couldn't that count as discrimination against English-only speakers?).
One day on the J i had this old Spanish man come up to me, spoke to me in Spanish. "I don't understand you sir." "You don't speak Spanish? Why not, it is official language of U.S." Saqdly, that seems to be the attitude out there.
According to a survey report I once read, there are 142 different languages heard spoken in the subway system. In DMV, there are 28 languages recognised of which many are given oral tests, including those who remain illiterate in English. My first experience with someone illiterate was nearly thirty years ago...in a 'defense plant'...I was stunned. He drove ladies from the production lines to and from work depending upon their instructions...was unable to read destination signs on the highway...but he was responsible for 'buttoning up' 19" rack panels chock full of commmunications equipment.
'In the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE BIE Speak English!!!' CI Peter
OK, I'll rephrase what I said. To my knowledge, announcements must be made ONLY in English.
David
Not only that, but the rulebook also says "No improvisation." Its up to the TA if that could be determined as improvisation as well.
Time to pull out the trusty ol' Blue Book...
Well, if your going to use Spanish, that would be the station to use it. Greatest place to live was Jackson Hts, the world in 30 blocks!!
One of the window clerks at the LIRR Ronkonkoma station routinely gives a Spanish announcement for the evening connecting train to Greenport. It's not a bad idea under the circumstances, as a number of Spanish-speaking people use the station and it's not uncommon for people, Spanish-speaking and otherwise, to try and board the Greenport train thinking it's the next train to Penn.
My parents live in Holbrook, and there is a sign on the deli
that says Se habla Espanol.
The island is truly changing.
I think all announcements should be in English and Spanish. New York is becoming as bilingual as Brussels, Montréal, or Barcelona. That's a good thing.
Bilingual? Oh yeah. I hear Russian and Polish on the streets all the time....
What about Hindi and Urdu??? Generic Arabic??? Newurican???
'Do not step upon or cross these tracks.' In the hole, ho ho ho hole, cover your ears BIE Speak English. CI peter
Well, I pulled out the blue book and the TA Rule book, and what I found was nothing. Nothing stating that the announcements must be in English Only. So unless its in a bulletin (which I haven't yet checked), Spanish seems OK to the TA.
I'm not saying that I agree with this, as if you make announcements in Spanish then you must serve the others as well.
You are correct that the Blue Book (as well as the Rule Book) does not state what language the announcements should be in, since that would be stating the obvious. Spanish is, indeed, OK to the TA, when they want it to be, such as Spanish announcements at stations to mind the moving platforms and the like.
But a Conductor who deviates from the Blue Book by making foreign language announcements is likely to find himself reinstructed or otherwise retrained, if only for the reason you so aptly stated, by singling out one community, we are slighting all the others (this is why holiday announcements and store location announcements are verboten as well).
As a matter of fact, the Blue Book was intended to be a script followed by each and every Conductor so that there would be uniformity to the announcement policy. Idiosyncratic announcements a la Harry Nugent were frowned upon. The Book makes this clear by stating in bold caps on p. 3: "This is what we want you to say," followed by samples, where just about the only allowable substitutions are the station names and train lines :-) (And yes Conductors were reinstructed for saying 'Please Stand Clear of the Closing Doors,' instead of the prescribed 'Stand Clear of the Closing Doors Please' announcement.) From this suggested script, one could argue (and I know the author of the book would, although I cannot speak for the present regime) that if they are not in the script, then they violate the RTO policy on announcements.
Sorry to be so long winded.
Those of you familier with the Sea Beach will knno the location of the photo below. I took this photo today. My question is: was this "thing" between the tracks used at one point as a layup area? It looks like it was wide enough for two tracks. I don't think there is any mention of it in the Sea Beach Line Guide on this site. Thanks.
Take Pride,
Brian
I remember that, that's where the Sea Beach goes into the 4th Ave. Did you take that from an R40 Slant?????
Nope, an R-40M.
---Brian
Remnants of the old NY & Sea Beach ROW? I'm not sure where that line had it's northern terminal.
Not a bad guess, but Mark W's answer sounds a bit better. I think you two should fight it out or something :) In all seriousness, I really am wondering what that thing is between the tracks.
---Brian
I rememer now. It's the ramp to the 65th St. ferry terminal. IIRC, The Sea Beach and Bay Ridge branches both shared that terminal prior to the connection to the 4th Ave subway.
The line to the 65th Street ferry. If u look when u ride past, there are ties there still. Abandoned in the 20's I believe.
That's the best answer I've heard all night. How sure are you about that answer?
---Brian
If I wasn't sure, I wouldn't have posted.
Didn't the line to 65th St. Ferry come off the West End line, via the 5th Ave. El? I thought the Sea Beach and the West End were two branches that fed into the 5th Ave. Before Dual Contracts building, that is.
Anyhow- this post is more of a question than a statement of fact, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know more about the early pre-Dual Contracts BRT lines.
AFAIK, The Sea Beach never connected with the 5th Ave EL.
"I'd love to know more about the early pre-Dual Contracts BRT lines."
J-Train Tony, then you'll enjoy Brian Cudahy's new book, "How we got to Coney Island." He discusses your question and so much more.
The West End would have connected to the 39th St Ferry.
And until you can get that book, here's some early history of the BRT lines, from 1878 to 1913, right on this site!
--mark
Not a very pretty picture is it? Oh, the photo is nice but look at the debris and run down state of my Sea Beach line. Do you think the TA will ever get around to just cleaning up the place? It's a disgrace that such a fine line as mine has to traverse in such a seedy run down area. A little custodial and maintainance work could do wonders, but I guess that's whistling in the dark. I believe the picture shown is where the Sea Beach enters the tunnel just after leaving 8th Avenue.
You are correct sir. But you don't know what that thing is between the tracks? I'm shocked! :O
---Brian
That whole line is a disrace. It needs a little custodial work down the whole line, and I'd be willing to go down with Fred and clean it up ourselves. When I get off the damn extra extra list. Probably do a better job too.
Its definitely from a rail line. As Mark W. pointed out (but I never noticed) there are ties, also you see evidence of once existing power lines running alongside and (unless they're NYCT's, but they are pretty beat up and NYCT's are recessed intot he wall) some sort of signal system equipment.
I thought it was part of the old LIRR ROW abandoned a long time ago altough I think it is used for freight rail now.
Maybe Fred purchased the land rights there, he might want to build something on it and have the best view of his Slum-Beach trains passing through, drooling in amazement.
You're a Kool Head Mr. Kool D-----but I don't go in for drafty toilets.
Slum Beach, I like that better then Slow Beach
Had you taken the shot about 30 feet earlier, you would have been able to see the ties yourself. 8-)
This is just a little off topic, but it has to do with trains. I was in DC this PM and rode the wamta oRANGE line out to new Carrolloton to watch some Amtrak Trains(caught 4) The train goes alongside the old Pennsy Mainline, there was a train of full hopper cars of coal. Most of the Cars were CSX, but I counted about 20-25 former Conrail cars.
Above their number were the lettes NYC. Does anyone know if that meant
New York City and if so what does it mean or New York Central.
I am curious
Former New York Central acquisitions. They also had some PRR labelled cars as well as other railroads too in their "shared assets" "collection" ...
When CSX and NS acquired CR, it was decided to apply the reporting mark NYC to all Conrail cars slated to go to CSX. The NYC mark belonged to Conrail because it was the former New York Central's reporting mark.
Yep ... in addition, numerous cars were stenciled as PRR, others RDG (Reading) and other indications of their original "owners" prior to acquisition by Conrail ... the work was done in various yards (including here in Selkirk) where available. All was done in anticipation of the sale as you indicated ...
The RDG car WAS a legacy car with old lettering. Thats why railroads keep old reporting marks registered with the AAR. CR did have a VERY SMALL number of ORIGINAL NYC cars around, so they kept the mark registered. With the "split" coming up, cars for CSX received NICE NEW NYC marks, while cars for NS kept their CR or whatever NON NYC legacy marks were on them.
Yep, not arguing, you're RIGHT ... it was temporary marking ONLY until the deal had been done. But the folks here in Selkirk, and in particular Philly, were charged with FINDING the original cars and making sure that THOSE got the right mark because everybody knew CSX would be whining if they didn't get all the "new and shinies" ... I'm not kidding.
So folks had to FIND the original cars and make certain that they were marked up as what they originally were with paperwork to back it up. It was an incredibly stressful time for the Conrail folks, trying to run a railroad and chase down so much silly stuff.
Stuff that CONRAIL purchased however was largely assigned to PRR and NYC marks based on car numbers in groupings.
Here's a photo of a Reading hopper car photographed in Balmr last May.
This one was in the same cut of cars.
Wow ... wonder how that car escaped the "tagging team?" Lease? Rolled into a coal mine and forgotten? Doing late night shuttle duty on the Sea Beach? :)
tHE LATE NIGHT SHUTTLE On the Sea Beach seems more like it. Now I have to look more closely at CSX Trains near me, Maybe I will find a New Haven,
You WILL post the pic, I trust. :)
If they were from the New York Central, that makes those cars at least 35-36 years old.
The reporting mark NYC was applied IN DECAL FORM right over the CR mark on cars to go to CSX. If a few old cars from the New York Central received these marks, it is sheer coincidence
As best as the story goes, they actually DID track down cars that were original PRR and NYC cars by their serial numbers, making sure that the original cars were properly marked up. Newer acquired cars were done on a basis as you say. But there were folks assigned to figuring out what was what among the junkers because (and I quote) "them CSX crackers are SO whiny" ... and Conrail had already had enough of the arguments as to who got what, so they went back to the car sheets ... and JUST to screw with CSX, some were marked up RDG (to go to NS) just to screw with CSX's people. As the breakup came, the Conrail folks had had *MORE* than a snootful of the CSX kids ...
Actually, both the NYC and PRR reporting marks were acquired from the private persons who had gotten them when they were surrended when Conrail was formed.
CSX & NS paid lots of bucks (a friend of mine got a big payoff from NS and retired from AT&T.) He had the PRR mark on his possesion.
The two reporting marks were used to assign equipment (locomotives and cars) that would be divided between the two companies. CSX got NYC and NS got PRR.
The CSX main line to Philly passes right over the BSM, so we got the "birds eye view") of cars and engines, still carrying Conrail paint with fresh NYC markings. Locomotives in Conrail blue with a new yellow number and NYC on the cab sides.
NS also wound up the freight job that runs on the Light Rail's ex-Northern Central portion, so blue Conrail engines with new numbers and PRR marks on the cab sides became a somewhat familiar sight.
Recently we've been seeing a lot of leased power on the Belt Line. Seems CSX is having trouble in the East controlling their motive power.
Yeah, that makes sense, especially entering "Shared assets" territories. You DO want your motor back if it works. Ah, but there's the rub with CSX. They own a LOT of power that ain't suited to running north of ... oh ... Atlanta. They've got quite a few locomotives that just didn't run anymore (or even START) in temps below -22F that are pretty normal in them yankee states. :)
They've also had a number of what WAS ex-Gonerail and modified for snowbird service run out of water with the motors turning and things like that. But I hear they are indeed short on power and what they need to run up here, they don't have a whole lot of. So they lease until the ice breaks in April. I s'pose ...
The CSX main line to Philly passes right over the BSM...
To illustrate Dan's statement, if you look closely at the right edge of this photo, you can see a BSM streetcar (PCC #7407) waiting to depart on its next trip.
CSX & NS paid lots of bucks (a friend of mine got a big payoff from NS and retired from AT&T.) He had the PRR mark on his possesion.
Seems like a certain friend of yours had been telling you BS. While individuals are permitted to own reporting marks, I don't see why Conrail would give them up, and anyway if they were to give them up, a lot of their equipment would in fact have been out of compliance (I see a bunch of ex-NYC equipment hanging around here up in Western Mass. -- real "NYC" lettering, not the CSX NYC lettering.)
In any case, Conrail did not need to use the PRR and NYC reporting marks. Conrail could have easily registered PRRZ and NYCZ if they just needed a temporary placeholder to pool cars in.
In fact, Conrail also owned other reporting marks besides CR: CRZ, CRR, CRMZ, PC, EL, amongst others. Erie Lackwanna went to Norfolk Southern. For some reason, no one seemed to have retained the New Haven reporting mark -- probably because they didn't have any freight cars worth talking about.
AEM7
tere are not many cars left from the NYC in active service. the NYC and PRR lettering had nothing to do with former railroads only as legal temporary holding railroad .
this since the rights of former NYC and PRR and all predecesor railroads now lays with CSX and NS.
They were, and are indeed. A large number of Conrail shared assets cars were owned by Bethlehem Steel. :)
As long as you can bang out the dents and make them relatively straight, weld on some spare steel, they roll again and again. It's not like Conrail did much better than Amtrak financially. But of course *NOW* CSX is actually SUBSIDIZED out of your taxpayer wallet. Makes a difference, but STILL no new cars that I've seen.
Selkirk, I don't know what you have got against Chicken S**t eXpress, all I've seen is you whine about them. It's like the Green and Red all over again. I'm surprised that it's still going on...
Recently I heard something interesting -- CSX apparently has stepped down the maintenance on the Conrail main. The specs on the maintenance is now 50% of what it used to be, so I was told by a source. It is true that they are inspecting them more often, and managers are more on the ball... but that's because they HAVE to be to run a stressed out railroad that is being pushed further and further to the margin(!)
Everybody that I've heard say bad things about CSX are from Philly. Aside from Selkirk, I don't hear many New Yorkers whine about CSX. Interesting correlation.
AEM7
I guess it's living in a town with lots and lots of former Gonerail, nee CSX employees. They're generally not a happy bunch. Still, we manage to spend more time in the local watering hole talking up what Joe Bruno's up to, but nobody HERE wants to hear THAT. But take away Bruno and CSX, and all I'm left with is talking about 76th Street station. :)
Ya gotta admire a railroad though that doesn't find crowned rails owing to frostbite until the sidewinder shows up to rerail something.
I've observed CSX maintenance (or lack thereof) first hand -- diamonds is the place to watch them, watch the ballast pump and watch the diamond burst open as a train passes... (The one time I saw that happen, I missed all the action -- they were repairing the diamond as I got there).
What's the story about frostbite?
In extremely cold weather (-10 or worse F) rails can contract enough that they split. Along their LENGTH. Unlike your regular "broken rail" that might cut the signalling current, the rail remains "electrically contiguous" and so you're likely to receive a "clear" ... usually they DO break, but sometimes they don't. They just split a bit (profile looks like a "crown") and then when a railcar goes over the defect, the rail turns into rope with about that degree of stiffness. :)
I'm sure there's others who can go into more detail if you want, but that's the gist of it. One of those little surprises that remind you to "WATCH your iron." I'm told this year has been impressive.
In extremely cold weather (-10 or worse F) rails can contract enough that they split. Along their LENGTH.
That's hard to track, and I don't think it's just CSX. The opposite problem is buckle, so if you lay rails when it's too cold, they buckle in hot weather; if you lay them when it's too warm, they split...
From what came out of the Capitol derailment investigation, I am told that CSX's standards for laying CWR (i.e. the temperature window) is not as tight as it could be, but that's a cost issue: utilization of track crew.
You can compensate this by having rail clippers, by the way -- the anti-creep things. The way CSX has their mainlines however, are basically high maintenance -- they are basically substituting labor for capital. Somewhere somebody someday cuts the margin of error too thin (Snow is known for tight budget controls).
Their "frostbite" is probably as bad as any other railroad, or at least as good as you could expect from the level of maintenance input they are putting in. But it's not really their fault -- blame the truckers for the state of the railroad. You know where I am coming from.
AEM7
Absolutely. I've always felt that if taxpayer money is going to build highways and airports, then it should lay TRACK as well. Boy, that oughta put the dittoheads in a tizzy. :)
a web perspective. As a former Maryland resident and stone B&O fan I subscribe to e'mail updates from MARC and VRE. There are constant updates about CSX signal and trackswitch failure engendered delays. There are almost NO similar problems on NS. Statistics do not whine on their own.
to avoid legal hassles in splitting up the former Conrail assets plus fact there is still Conrail as a shared assets devision all equipment to go to CSX was designated as NYC New York Central) and all equipment to go to Norfolk Southern was designated as PRR as an interim measure till both party's agreed on the numbers and cars.
all cars will be repainted and or renumbered for their home railroad, it was only a temporary deal .
Actually, at least on the NS side, all the equipment are in various wholely owned ghost corporations. Basically it is easier to just pave over the old companies rather than change all the ownerships officially. If you look under the number on NS locos they will be marked in small letters SOU, NW or PRR which indicate which ghost company they are help under.
In my Wreck of the Penn Central book they had an ownersip chart for the PC. Many of the original companies that were accquired to form the PRR and NYC still existed as owned subsudaries under the PC. These included some names such as the United Railroads of New Jersey and the Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore.
Companies also have a habbit of "leasing" other companies for 999 years.
When Conrail was being split up, stuff going to CSX was labelled NYC (New York Central) and stuff going to NS was labelled PRR to help keep things straight. This was logical, since CSX got the NYC line through New York state, and NS got the PRR line through Pennsylvania.
Why doesn't the TA ever tell us when the 5 is not running between 180th and 149th? It happened Friday and today. When they raise the fair to 200 dollars, are they cutting back on service advisories, too? Is this going to be everyday on the 5?
I feel your pain. Just put a decimal point between the 2 and the first 0 in 200 just to make us all comfortable, please.
Look at the bright side. Substantial completion on the new signal system is scheduled for early 2004. Then you'll have new signals all the way down the White Plains Road line, and lots of new stations too.
At that time, they'll start the shutdowns to rebuild the Bergen Street interlocking on my F train. By the time that's done, and assuming we're not back to deferred maintenance with signals 40 years older than last time, they may be starting replacing the signals on the Culver from Coney Island to 7th Avenue, which also affects me because I'm at Prosepct Park. And when they're done with THAT, we get the Crosstown signal project from 7th Avenue up to Queens Plaza, which hits me again. And that's just signals!
Of course, if you live on the Dyre line there is no reason to rejoice. We haven't replaced those signals yet, and they are very old, but the design starts next month.
Will the signals make a big difference in train service? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just not familiar with the effects.)
(Will the signals make a big difference in train service? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just not familiar with the effects.))
Not one that you'll notice. What you would have noticed would have been the consequences if the signals hadn't been replaced -- the are obsolete, and parts are becomming hard to come by, so there would have been an increasing number of outages.
What you will notice is fewer construction delays after the project is over. At least you are getting it over with. Supposedly, the four big shutdown weekends were enough to catch up from the time lost due to 9/11.
I guess this is just life. One part or another of the BQE, the FDR or both has been under construction since I first bought a car in 1990.
What do you mean by new stations? Also, will these new signals be of different type? In other words, at 149th GCC, on the Southbound, Red over Green is the signal for the Lexington route. Will that change to Green over Yellow? I assume the old IRT signaling system of Red over Green for diverging, and so fourth, will be gone for good.
The stations won't really be "new," they'll be rebuilt. The exception is Gun Hill Road, which will be replaced with a new, relocated station that has no trace of the former Third Avenue El platforms.
As far as the signals go, they're an NYCT standard installation. The IRT-specific aspects will probably go away.
David
do you think the new 238 Street station will still have the 238 Street signs, poles, and references on the entrance?
You mean all stations on the White Plains Road line between 180th and 241st will be replaced? What will passengers who frequent those stations do and how long will it take?
The only station that is to be REPLACED is Gun Hill Road. The others are to be rehabilitated.
David
They'll probably so it the same way they did the Broadway line. Half the stations at once, when they're done do the other half. And if the neighborhoods are as pushy as the Williamsburg area hopefully it won't take much longer than 6 months for each set (3 if they do it in 4 sets).
They need to replace Nostrand Avenue Station on the IND, It's old and need better lightning and needs more seats in the station.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
My guess would be that leaving 149/GC, Lex trains will see a Yellow over Yellow with the entire curve on timed signals.
I hope not! There are enough unnecessary Timers around the system. We don't need any more.
"I guess this is just life. One part or another of the BQE, the FDR or both has been under construction since I first bought a car in 1990."
I believe the FDR and/or BQE have been under continuous construction since about 1970, actually. I'm sure someone can identify a few months here or there where no work was being done on either, but probably not many.
Any signal part not available from US&S or Alstom is made at the 215th signal shop -right? So what's obsolete?
The only signal devices that are truly past their time are the GRS induction-type stops.
The existing signal equipment was so robustly designed that if properly maintained it should last a good long time (which it has.)
Piston packing wears out, Pole Changers get bad contacts, and CBTC PC boards will certainly cost much more than rebuilding a vane relay. My point is that you're always going to have parts that need to be replaced from normal wear --so just do that! Why replace the entire system?
The Feds' attitude about what they will fund has changed, and New York City must pay the price by blazing a trail in unproven technology. If they will only pay for "state of the art" then fine, put in what Metro North has --its existing technology.
The TA needs to admit that the endgame of CBTC is to cut RTO employees by 1/2.
[[ end rant ]]
Like they'll EVER admit that!!
Don't forget make their wallets much fatter too.
I wonder if they actually manage to do this what their excuse will be for raising fairs? Will the public stand up and say 'You have 50% fewer employees than X years ago yet we're still paying more?'
Would be interesting to see...
"The TA needs to admit that the endgame of CBTC is to cut RTO employees by 1/2"
Of course the goal of technology is to streamline the costs of operations. Labor costs in this country are by far one of the biggest costs in any business.
"Any signal part not available from US&S or Alstom is made at the 215th signal shop -right? So what's obsolete?"
The cost of custom building parts is astronomical. It's time these signals are upgraded to modern technology that will ensure the riding public safe, effecient rail service at an afortable price.
In order for the MTA to be able to provide good service to riders now and in the future the mta must modernize it's antiquated infrastucture. A fully upgraded transit system could shed at least 25% of it's current work force and provide more frequent service to the riding public at an afordable price.
Pardon my playing devil's advocate here, but once we've eliminated all those jobs and have managed 100% efficiency, who's going to be left to BUY anything? Sorry, but it needed to be asked. If you eliminate too many positions, you end up with the Phillipines (and many other places) situation, where nobody in the factory can afford to buy what they make.
Public sector jobs which are not needed drive up taxes which drives good paying private sector jobs out of state.
Lower taxes = lower cost of business = more private sector jobs for New York
Moneies currently spent on jobs that will be illminated will be spent somewhere else . More teachers to educate our children. Longer library hours. Lower fare's for the less fortunite The money all come out of the same pot.
A good example is the thousands of finacal industry jobs that have moved across the river to jersey city. The lower taxes and lower building costs (thank the construction union for that) have cost NYC thousands of good paying jobs. One forgets that for each white collar worker there is a need for more office cleaners, security guards, buildin mechanics, cooks, waiters, bus boys and retail workers
Just a note on the construction unions. During the building boom in the late 90's the unions refused to admit more members or allow members from out of state locals to work in the city. There was a huge backlog of projects that got delayed or were canceled because of this
These jobs lost to technolgy will occur over time. In there place will be fewer better paying jobs. In the end the remaining workers at the MTA life will be better off.
There's this huge industrial park out near the Deer Park LIRR station. "Everyone" loves it; new industry, more taxes paid, plenty of jobs. And it is nice to look at. The standard suburban brick square factory design, but much larger in scale. Lots of parking...
But you know what? Most of the jobs inside these clean factory buildings are minimum wage warehouse/mailing/distribution jobs. Now, how can you plan for a future with such a measly salary? What gets me is how those with the gelt, who create the jobs, have by and large the least concept of decent jobs. It really doesn't matter to them. The concept is, rent a covered box. Set up long lines of machinery, mail bar coding, assembling mailing packages, vitamins, electronics, whatever. Hire all those new folks to do the necessary drone work. Pull in the profits.
These places are modern-day sweat shops. Okay, a job is a job. I've worked in those joints too. But it doesn't say much for the imaginations or qualities of those who own these companies. And it creates a larger and larger community of people who really can't aspire to greater living conditions.
We've got the same situation up here - it's called Bombardier up north, and Supersteel nearby. "Industrial jobs" of course, but pays MUCH less than in comparable factories. Train lovers can debate the quality that does emerge from these modern "shops" but you've put your finger right on the problem. And our "policies" are not exactly encouraging people to be educated in the higher paying "industrial sector" jobs either as we ship those away. Seems those companies that packed off to the south are now packing off to southeast Asia and even smaller fiefdoms such as those where Nike roams.
Meanwhile, folks around here who once worked for GE building turbines are now standing proudly out front at minimum wage saying "Welcome to Wal*Mart" ... sure hope this nation doesn't get itself into a wartime situation where the rest of the world flips us the bird and won't sell us tanks or DVD players. Once upon a time, everything we needed was "in house" ... now we depend on the good will of others. I call that "dependency" while some call it "progress" ... we'll see ...
Made in China.......
Assembled in China..
US made from imported parts..
Assembled overseas from US parts
Free Trade Zone...
You bought junk...
"GE Cares customer service" (Barbados) ... Verizon customer service (Antigua) ... Fleet Bank Bonds Division (Sri Lanka) ... there's an internet now, no need for ANYBODY to be in the United States. Just a thought, but one I think of every time I'm shopping. For now, call me stupid, but if I can find something made by our own, I'd rather buy that even if it's junk.
Not EVERYBODY can get that covetted middle management job, and at the moment, that's the job classification disappearing faster than others. Want FRIES with that?
I'm learning how to do without. All that plastic gadget gee gaw...pshawww! Who needs it? Dollar store junk, no matter how much it costs. Knock offs of everything.
GE employees got busted with 'GE brings good things to life' T-shirts.
Defense plant employees....GE MiniGun pic with 'like Death' logo.
.308 Win at 4000 RPM......really nice Gatlin. NOT made in China.
Chiney food...Chiney food. Supervisors continue to order out Chinese...really want to tell em find American food. 'Hung So Low' will one day get his bicycle bomb into a TA facilty beyond property protection. 911 is only the tip of the iceberg.......most of the world envys our freedom and will do anything to make us lose it.
To my Brothers and Sisters in Transit: forget the unions rantings.
Remain vigilant and alert. You are the Eyes and Ears of Transit.
Do not hesitate to report anything suspicious to supervision.
Freedom is....an M1 Garand. Nothing else. CI peter
>>> Supervisors continue to order out Chinese...really want to tell em find American food. <<<
They must not be very hungry if they can wait for the food to arrive from China. On the other hand, I do not understand what would be wrong with buying food from Americans of Chinese ancestry, or why that would be a security problem.
Tom
Such a can of woims unca Tom!!!! Apart from the fact that this Chinese food does NOT come from Americans of Chinese ancestry, there is a stinging security matter about entry to TA property. Supervisors have flex-time......we have the one half hour My birthday is March 1st and I decided to remain silent and do for my crew....this pick may wipe em all away from 239th. I'll save the AVA
and be there if I can. CI peter
what would be wrong with buying food from Americans of Chinese ancestry
We have a very fine Chinese Resturant here in North Dakota. Several *real* Chinese cooks. They siad they came here from the Bronx! Their language skills said they didn't live in the Bronx very long.
Indeed, most of them got busted by INS and disapeared. The Husband and Wife, with their wonderful kids still live here and run a very fine store. The little girl was great in math, but there were few teachers in this part of North Dakota who could instruct in Chinese. The School retired principal here and his wife have spent a long time with the kids teaching them in English, and they are doing well.
And the food is the best on this part of the planet.
Elias
And that which is made here is junk too, and costs a fortune compared to the American made inferior products.
Are we trying to put ourselves out of business?
Once upon a time we had had quality stuff made here, and stuff we were proud of (at least to own). Subway cars made here. The GTO, the Mustang, the Charger. At one time we made some of the best stuff.
Maybe we need to be cutoff like Selkirk fears and we become once again self-reliant. We can do it too, we have the resources, just have to stop being so lazy about it.
Doc Brown: No wonder this circuit failed it says made in Japan.
Marty: What are you talking about Doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc Brown: Unbelievable.
>>> We can do it too, we have the resources, just have to stop being so lazy about it. <<<
It is not laziness. Just a shift of the fruits of production from labor to capital.
Tom
It is not laziness. Just a shift of the fruits of production from labor to capital.
This will continue until all peoples of the world share a similar standard of living. Get used to it.
Elias
I got a little rant here...
Can't these frickin' knuckleheads figure out how to make stuff HERE? What is their problem? EVERYTHING IS MADE IN CHINA!! I'm out of my mind sick of it.
Damn it all. We're fed second by second the sights and sounds of all the doo dads we should have to feel "whole". But we always want the cheapest price. Hence, the company, which long ago shut down the factory in Long Island City and moved to the South, and later, shut THAT down and went over the border to Mexico, now cuts out of Mexico and moves production to China!
Agggggghhhhhh!!!!!
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? I miss seeing "Made in Brook-a-leen".
O.T. rant terminated.
The problem is first and foremost, we've got an "ego problem" ... we've stopped "technical education" since it demeans people. So there is an increasingly severe shortage of skilled machinists, engineers and technicians which paid fairly well. Now there's "service sector" McJobs to replace those at a much smaller paycheck.
Then there's management perogatives ("cut costs") and what better way to cut costs than to farm out the work to the third world where folks will work for 3 cents a day? There's a long history of this being the method taught in MBA schools where we watch our wages slide, but at the same time we've got folks living at subsistence wages in OTHER countries who allow Wal*Mart to keep knocking down those prices. The dogma is that "OK, we get paid less but we get MORE for our money so it's a wash" ... 'cept for taxes, but I won't beat that horse anymore.
Eventually, we'll be so out of it that we won't know how to open a tin can. But they say it's progress. I buy my food from local farmers. I shop at the local grocery store. I think and act globally where I can but also remember that you have to feed your own too.
Nowadays our trains are made in Canada, Japan and France. Soon we'll forget how to build railcars entirely. Same for autos, same for video equipment. All works out as long as the rest of the world is willing to take our money and give us something in exchange for it.
But WHAT IF ... what if we cheese off the world and they cut us off? Sorta like what we did to South Africa and other "pariah nations?" When we went up against Hitler, we won because we had everything we needed and the skills needed to make it. Are we as strong today? Just another thought for the grist mill. Oh wait, we don't have any of those anymore either.
My thoughts on this are rather simplistic, I realize. But yeah, YEAH! I do wish we could somehow be forced to be much more self reliant as a naion. It saddens me because all my life I have thought of "business" as friends to America.
But it seems as though so much of "business" is really, not giving a s**t about America. (And please, none of this "Peru is America, too!" jive. Nobody wants to move to "Peru" to live. AMERICA to the world is exactly who we think we are. The United States of...). Seems as though much of "business" behaves like those nice folk who'll lift that watch offaya dead body lying in the street since you won't be usin' it!
Keeerist. We got ghouls playing the part of business in the play entitled "The Business of America is Business".
>>We got ghouls playing the part of business in the play
entitled "The Business of America is Business".<<
And you are surprised because noone learns any history either. Lenin is reputed to have said that the capitalists would be bidding to sell rope to the Soviets as they were being hung.
The multinationals are basicly large criminal organisations whose behavior is often deserving of capital punishment for the decision making managers. There is no good technical reason the US can'y design/build railcars, BUT when the market is as haphazard and skimpy as it has been here, noone can afford to maintain the capacity. Even if you think Bill Agee wasn't smart enough, he also bankrupted the company.
But it seems as though so much of "business" is really, not giving a s**t about America.
The issue is NOT with Business.
It is in your own pocket.
You HAD the freedom to BUY AMERICAN, but you chose to BUY CHEAP, and so America stopped producing, and now for many items you no longer have the option to Buy American.
Please observe, that when Japan entered the market, it was with Japanese companies: Sony Toyota Panasonic etc etc.
Now in Wal*Mart (and any place else) you can once again buy your faforite AMERICAN BRAND NAMES! but all of these products are Made In China! American Companies are BACK IN BUSINESS, but the labor is being done elsewhere. At least in this I see some hope, even if it does not get you a decent job.
Elias
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? I miss seeing "Made in Brook-a-leen".
That scenario is described in the upcoming book Chapter 7 Made Easy.
>>> Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"? <<<
Welcome to the Global Economy! Without trade tariffs to protect domestic manufacturers from low priced imports, consumer goods cannot be manufactured in the United States and sold at a price equal to the cost of manufacture plus shipping from the 3rd world. This will continue to be true until the wages and standard of living in those countries approach ours, or our wages and standard of living approach the 3rd world's. But don't worry, American capital (now multi-national) located all over the word will continue to prosper, no matter what happens to the American workers. Thank goodness the oppressed owners of that capital will no longer have to pay income tax on their dividends. :-(
Tom
LOL!
TA pays $142 for crap-ass safety shoes made in China and never hi-pots them......they are supposed to protect us from 600 VDC. Better safety shoes from Walmart cost less than thirty dollars a pair (China.) ntrainride: I guess you are not old enough to remember Hammarlund. CI Peter
Yeah, you're right. I AM too young to remember it....a radio receiver, correct? However, I do remember that Ampex invented video tape.
That one inch ribbon? GBC had 3/4 inch B/W decks for sale at $399 and I WONDERED WHAT YOU COULD TAPE until Sony had BetaMax recorders with built in TV tuners. BBC had all the original 'Dr. Who' episodes
on one inch until someone discovered 'erasure and reuse.'
Aren't there ANY capitalists left who can come up with the methodology to open a factory in, say, Brooklyn, or Newark, build the items and do it well enough to offer the workers an "honest days pay"?
NOPE! Labor is the biggest cost of a product. Labor is cheaper over there. Unless *you* want to work for that wage, the job will stay over there, until such a time as all workers on the planet earn a similar standard of living.
Now look at a product such as eyeglasses. Why does a pair of eyeglasses cost as much as a good digital camera? The eyeglasses are made here individually by american craftsmen to your own prescription. (Sure *frames* may be made elsewhere, but the frame also carries all of the overhead of running the optical shop, its employees, its rent, and the utilities.) Look at the digital camera: it is stamped out by a cookie cutter by the thousands in a factory in china or tiawan.
Until all share the same standard of living, the factory work goes to the lowest bidder.
Now let me ask you a question. Sould we make the rich poorer, or the poor richer? Go ahead tax the rich until they have nothing left. Then nobody will have anything. Is *that* what you want?
Elias
I mentioned nothing about taxes. I'm saying, those with the werewithal to create jobs don't seem to be able to get beyond this quandry. And the truth is, it's all done to satisfy our desires for the latest thing. Something doesn't seem right when the only way for our fellow citizens to so-called "enjoy what is rightfully ours" is for us to be using the people of the poorest countries to manufacture it. And no, I'm not being politically correct. I mean, the fact that we seem to value, uh, consumer values more than anything else. Why don't we bitch much when those factories close down?
Damn it, I don't care what the media inspired hoo-faw-roo call it, I think that philosphy is unAmerican! That ain't us, people. We don't purposefully suck out the liveblood of people to get our own. It used to be, anyway, we BUILT IT OURSELVES.
And yet, I defy you to find any clothing store in the land where the percentage of items NOT labled "Made in Maylasia", "Made in Dominican Republic", "Made in Romania", "Made in Costa Rica", etc, never exceeds five percent or so.
Sorry to get so preachy....but, shame on us. And I'm not gonna allow myself to be reconciled with hindsight analysis of ineveitabilities. It still stinks....big time.
There's this huge industrial park out near the Deer Park LIRR station. "Everyone" loves it; new industry, more taxes paid, plenty of jobs. And it is nice to look at. The standard suburban brick square factory design, but much larger in scale. Lots of parking...
But you know what? Most of the jobs inside these clean factory buildings are minimum wage warehouse/mailing/distribution jobs. Now, how can you plan for a future with such a measly salary? What gets me is how those with the gelt, who create the jobs, have by and large the least concept of decent jobs. It really doesn't matter to them. The concept is, rent a covered box. Set up long lines of machinery, mail bar coding, assembling mailing packages, vitamins, electronics, whatever. Hire all those new folks to do the necessary drone work. Pull in the profits.
These places are modern-day sweat shops. Okay, a job is a job. I've worked in those joints too. But it doesn't say much for the imaginations or qualities of those who own these companies. And it creates a larger and larger community of people who really can't aspire to greater living conditions.
What do you expect? Should the factory owners pay everyone $20 per hour? Then you'll have an empty industrial park. I am a great believer in the marketplace as the ultimate arbitrer of wages. The factory owners in that industrial park (Heartland), and in countless others like it throughout the country, generally will pay the wages that the market compels. There's no grand conspiracy to keep the workers down. What sometimes does distort the marketplace are the unions, with their artificially inflated wages. That's all well and good for the people who pull down the high union wages, but increasingly the jobs leave New York - and sometimes the United States - for cheaper pastures elsewhere. It should come as no surprise that the last major redoubt of unionization is in government and health care jobs. Those are the jobs that generally cannot move elsewhere.
My point was, why is that segment of job producing entities the ONLY type that's seen nowadays? And plenty of those companies that leave had gotten mucho bucks from local governments to "improve and expand". They scammed us, big time.
No shame. That's the problem.
In most cases Unions shoot themselves in the foot with thier excessivly high wage demands and anti-business work rules. The union leaderships has in large part failed thier members. They failed to adjust to the times. At one time there was no place for the companies to go. Once the landscape changes they should have worked with management to come to a balance that satisfied both sides.In has forces manufacturing companies to explore other options such as move south or to other countries. In large numbers over the last 30-40 years these firms have packed up and moved on. Many in union management held compaines hostage and forced the compaies to explore other options. Once one company moves out and the ski didn't fall, it eased the path for others to follow
The excessivly high salaries and crazy work rules have forced the state to raise taxes, cost more for electricity, fire, police and pushes the cost of housing, food and clothing up. Higher cost to build and maintain building raising rents and forces landlords to cut corners by not repairing problem or resorting to unquilified repair personel to fix problems.
This leads to more building collapsing, buildings catching fire (when people use alternative means to keep warm) eroding the housing stock.
If you look at white collar wall street jobs. Most companies who do not need to be in New York have moved out due to the excessivly high rents and cost associated with doing business here. One example is AT&T Many of the lower level jobs that don't require huge educations have been shifted for the most part to Jersey City or lower cost cities down south with lower cost of living. These cities generally don't have strong union precenses that drive up the cost of construction and thus office rents. The remaining wall street jobs such as stock analysts and other big positions stay in the city because it is easier to recruit top candidate's to the city. In fact bond traders at Goldman Sachs recently refuses to move to the new Jersey City office tower (which by the way was built when the MTA outbid goldman for 2 Broadway)
The end result of all this is less jobs for new yorkers. Government is forces to hand out large tax breaks to try to retain jobs. For instance it cost nearly 40% more to build an office building in Brooklyn then it is in Jersey City. The building trades Unions have held developers hostage which makes the costs prohibitive to build an office tower in brooklyn or long island city without government tax and other breaks.
The same is true at the MTA. The excessive costs for many job title and the lack of cooperation between management and Union leadership due to constant union demands for higher pay.
$23 hour tooken booth clerk
$18 hour station cleaner Are two examples.
other reasons why jobs go bye bye is the overgenerous social sevices. A Bloomberg adminsitration probe showed that 10% of people applying for emergency housing and support services came to NY within 6 months of applying for help
It's time that NEW YORK wises up, deployes technolgy to make government more effecient and use the money educate new yorker to do the jobs of the futer, lower taxes to attract the industry here.
If you walk the halls of reasearch labs, engineering companies, computer programing and networking compainies, biotechnolgy firms you will find that nearly half of the workers are foreign born, educated oversee's. We need to spend the money on education (including techical training) so that NYC residents can compete for good paying jobs. If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education can turn around thier education system so can we!!!
If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education can turn around thier education system so can we!!
Good. We can begin with spelling and gramar.
> If dirt poor regiond of india which had little hertige of education > can turn around thier education system so can we!!
> Good. We can begin with spelling and gramar.
You're a riot, Alice. A regular riot.
Of course the goal of technology is to streamline the costs of operations. Labor costs in this country are by far one of the biggest costs in any business.
Like Selkirk said, if everyone makes minimum wage, who buys stuff?
The cost of custom building parts is astronomical.
Don't forget, the TA has the advantage of quantity and standardization. Each time a 2A relay is on the bench, you're not re-inventing the wheel, its just like the last 500 you did.
A lot of the truly arcane things on the system like counterweight stops, mid-track switch machines, D-valves, Contract 1 signals, or Model 4 machines are gone.
It's time these signals are upgraded to modern technology that will ensure the riding public safe,
Please explain what's so unsafe about the current signal system.
Then explain how an unproven system is safer.
effecient rail service at an afortable price.
The answer lies in EXISTING technology, not being a beta-tester. Solid state cab control, and vital microprocessor interlockings have existed since the 80's and are proven safe. Plus you'd have standardization with Metro-North (and mainline RR's), so suppliers could offer a better price. Of course you'd still need OPERATORS...
-don't get me wrong, I'm still Dave-the-crazy-relay-guy, but If the feds will only shell out the dough for stuff with chips in it, then just buy what everyone else is buying right off the shelf. We're paying for R&D that isn't for what it says its for.
...MMMMMMMMM....dough.....chips.....aaarrrrrrgggllll. -gotta go to the store!
Don't forget, the TA has the advantage of quantity and standardization. Each time a 2A relay is on the bench, you're not re-inventing the wheel, its just like the last 500 you did.
Quantities of 500 are small potatos. OTOH, if they signal designers used techniques that have been proven in factory floor applications, then the universe grows to the 100K class. That is still an order of magnitude less than consumer applications.
The point I was making is that "specialty parts" are not being made up for every rebuild job with painstaking R&D time. The relays are standardized and the TA has a bZillion of them.
Gee, I thought you were still the motion picture electrician looking for decent regular work!!! I'm still on the list for SM but unca Steve told me 'round pegs need round holes and I think you have found your niche.' It'll be computer downloads and analysis Wednesday unless too many bodies are missing at 7 AM. CI peter
No, Peter I hired on 7 months ago.
"found your niche" -- verry punny.
"Like Selkirk said, if everyone makes minimum wage, who buys stuff? "
How does elliminated obsolete cause more people to make minimin wage. The money could be put to better use such as improving our education system so that NYC residents can get the good paying jobs in this city. Take a look at good paying private sector jobs in this city. There are more long islanders in these jobs then city residents. Why? better education. Take a look at research labs, engineering departments, bio tech industry, computer consulting. 50% of the workers are from another country. There are plenty of good paying jobs in New York state. If we spent less money protecting jobs that are no longer needed and refocus the money on more important endeveours we are all better off
Reduces government cost creates jobs.
Look at the plight of the sectretary. Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. yes there are fewer secretaries but they get paid a hell of a lot more. Many make in the $60-90 range. The money companies saved is used to pay people in job finctions that help the company move foward. The same will happen at the MTA
Close the token booths => add extra police patrols, install CCTV to better secure the entire station not just fare contro
One man crews => less costly to add addtional service
The daily news has an article of another manufacturing union that is demanding 15% raises. The article states that the compainies profit margins is only 5%
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/56933p-53308c.html
Once again these people fail to realize that if the company can not earn a decent profit, they will move out of city. Good luck finding another manufacturing job in NYC.
Reduced government cost creates jobs.
Look at the plight of the sectretary. Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. yes there are fewer secretaries but they get paid a hell of a lot more. Many make in the $60-90 range. The money companies saved is used to pay people in job finctions that help the company move foward. The same will happen at the MTA
Close the token booths => add extra police patrols, install CCTV to better secure the entire station not just fare control.
One man crews => less costly to add addtional service.
What you say is entirely true, but I unfortunately don't expect to see much of this "re-engineering" taking place at the MTA. While other factors may apply as well, the main reason why nothing's likely to happen is the fact that the opponents of change are far more passionate about their opposition than the proponents of change are about their support.
Let's use the closing of the token booth as an example. Most station agents see the booth closing as the first step in eliminating their jobs. They're probably right too, as the talk about using the S/A's as roving "customer service" workers in the stations is probably just that, namely talk. At any rate, it should come as no surprise that the S/A's are going to fight the proposals tooth and nail, using just about any means necessary. We've already seen some of that in the way the unions are raising a largely misleading safety issue as a way of playing on public fears.
Now, on the other side, the people in MTA management and elsewhere who favor closing the booths are surely not remotely as stirred up about the issue as the S/A's are. Booth-closing proponents only can point to certain cost cuts and theoretical gains in productivity. It's hard to get particularly worked up about numbers and forecasts. As a result, while logic and sound economic theory may be on the side of the close-the-booths contingent, the S/A's have raw passion on their side. It's not hard to see why it might be very difficult to close the booths, no matter how sensible the idea may be.
>>> Word Processing software and voicemail elliminated the need for most secretaries and changes the remaing secretaries job role. Former secretaries are now called administrative assisstants. <<<
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Administrative Assistant is not a new title. It used to be given to men who did not necessarily know how to type. Women with the same job were called "Executive Secretaries" and worked their way up from the secretarial ranks. Both positions were reserved for upper management in large corporations. Middle managers were entitled to a secretary and usually still are. Minor executives such as local sales managers would share secretary/typists who would answer the phone and do light typing and keep calendars. Before word processing large corporations had secretarial pools or typing pools which were the predecessor of the word processing departments. Typists who could take dictation may have called themselves secretaries, but they were not. The reduction in numbers has been in what were the typing pools. Word processing and spell checking have reduced the need to do multiple drafts from scratch or retyping a whole document when a minor error is discovered. Voice mail systems have lowered the number of receptionists and switchboard operators.
Tom
but If the feds will only shell out the dough for stuff
Why should the Federal Government shell out for a city subway system.
The city *wanted* to be in the Subway Business, they built a subway in order to DRIVE OUT PRIVATE subway systems, and they suceeded. Now nobody in the city has any right to complain that it sould be done by private interests, and there certainly is no reason why it should be done by Federal intersts, so BUILT AND MAINTAIN IT YOUR OWNSELVES! There is no reason why the city cannot sell bonds and build all of the subways it needs. The investors need not all be New Yorkers, but New Yorkers shall surely have to pay off the investors, be they private companies or the city (and it's bond holders) itself.
Yes, I agree that the Subways OUGHT to get a part of the federal taxes collected on fuel which are earmarked to improve *transportation* in this area, but better yet is eliminating the federal tax on fuels, and replacing it with a regional tax that can respond quickly to the changing transportion needs of the region.
Elias
There are a bunch of distinct issues.
1) Do we want to go away from wayside signals with stop arms
as the means of enforcement?
2) If so, do we use a proven system such as cab-signaling/ATO
using coded track circuits and vital solid-state components, or bleeding-edge CBTC?
3) Do we want to eventually go ATO and not have motormen operating
the trains?
At this time, there is absolutely no advantage to CBTC. It will
not produce any better track utilization than a conventional
cab-signal based system with positive speed control. It will not
be cheaper to install, in fact it will be much more expensive.
It will not be more reliable. There will be massive delays
and "teething pains". It may also be dangerous. There isn't
universal agreement on the vitality of the software-based CBTC
approach.
P.S. Point 1 is open to debate. There is nothing wrong with the
current signal system. The problem is the people using it.
The current wayside system expects people to understand and
obey the signals!
There is one possibility that you appear to overlook. The present wayside system but implemented with modern components - i.e. not mechanical relays. NYCT is installing its first programmable logic controller (PLC) based system for the signal system (Bergen St). This comes only 30 years after PLC's were successfully introduced onto the factory floor, replacing costly relay systems. Perhaps, somebody in the railroad industry would consider using PLC's to replace the ordinary wayside signalling.
Perhaps, somebody in the railroad industry would consider using PLC's to replace the ordinary wayside signalling.
You mean like every mainline railroad in the US has been doing for 20 years?
CBTC is the very first time since the Board of Transportation tried NX/UR that the TA has been "ahead of the curve." Being on what Jeff calls the "bleeding edge" of technology is just going to cost us all money.
I love to read others impliment leading edge technology. I live even more to install it myself once all the kinks are worked out.
The MTA is handling the project the correct way
They picked their simplest line to test the product out and they did not install the equiptment in all the new cars before they know that it is the right way to go
We should applude NYCT for the way they are handling the project. There are people on this board ripping the MTA saying metrocard was an outdated technology. Now we have people ripping the MTA saying CBTC is too leading edge
The big problem with metrocard was he fact that there were supposed to be 3 vendors for competitiveness, but 2 immediately backed out, and now the last company standing can charge whatever the heck it wants.
CBTC was supposed to be a bastion of inter-operability and "open platform" technology also.
*- Train-based systems are already not compatible.
*- Once the agreed means of communication from wayside-to-train was agreed upon by all parties invloved, the primary vendor then changed their design sufficiently to screw the other two companies.
Anyone from New-Tech/CBTC can feel free to jump in and correct me on these points.
No argument ... ask Microsoft ... "competition" means wiping out your competitors, operate a monopoly without nasty regulation. Works every time these days. :)
Of course, when you say "PLC", I have to translate that to
"VSP" (Vital Signal Processor). We've had the discussion
here before (numerous times?) about why responsible railway
signal engineers do not specify off-the-shelf PLCs for
the _vital_ parts of a signal system, i.e. those parts
which must fail-safe. Anyway, I sense that Mr. Turing's name
will be invoked, so let's agree to disagree on that point.
So, yes, one can use solid-state controllers in both vital
and non-vital applications. Oddly, although the TA has
been using non-vital PLCs (for example in master tower
consolidations) for a few years, it has not yet used a
Vital Signal Processor. These have been in common use
in the railroad industry for about a decade. Bergen St.
will be the "pilot project".
Using solid-state processor-based stuff for interlockings
is a super-good idea, because you eliminate a bazillion
non-vital and vital relays in the plant. If the interlocking
machine is already there and working, there is little reason
to replace it, but if the machine has, oh let's say burned
to the frame, or if you need to make major track changes,
then it might be less work to just install a MicroLock-II
than to run a whole bunch of hard-wired logic or make up
new dogs and tappets.
OTOH, processor-based wayside signalling doesn't gain much.
There's not too much in an automatic signal line case (although
with the latest signal specs with a plethora of timers, cycle
checks and red signal over-run detectors, those cases are
getting pretty full), and
what is inside of it doesn't require much maintenance.
Every once in a while the signal maintainer needs to visually
examine all the relays and verify that when the track is shunted,
the signal goes red. The relays are swapped out and sent
to the signal shop for bench overhaul once every ten years or
so. These things are brick shithouses and even though they
are electromechanical, they'll take a lot of abuse and very little
maintenance and still work reliably, and fail-safe.
Believe it or not, the parts of the wayside automatic block signal
system which is most labor-intensive to maintain are the track
circuits and the stops. These things are sitting in the
disgusting roadbed, unlike the relays which are sheltered up in
their nice little case. The stop arm mechanisms are frequently
under water. They need to be inspected monthly and the position of
the arm in the tripping and cleared position needs to be measured.
Track circuits frequently fail (safe) because of metallic debris
on the roadbed, failure of insulated joints, or broken bonds.
Right about the roadbed-based elements being the most prone to failure. Its why DC line control has implemented in the first place.
Since new contracts call for all relays formerly in line cases to be consolidated in rooms, then you just plop down your PLC code system, and viola! -you have indication anywhere you want.
Now you know the TA will NOT admit they are trying to get rid of RTO employees but its about time they place new signal systems and CBTC on the lines selected. Its just like the new technology cars, they're trying to cut the C/R positions over time.
NYCT's greatest operating expense (about 80% of the operating budget) is for personnel. Assuming that NYCT's goal truly is to reduce RTO personnel by automating part of the jobs they do, what is the objection to doing so? Lots of systems have one-person train operation -- Chicago recently went OPTO on trains that, while shorter than New York's, aren't exactly streetcar-sized, and that system doesn't have automatic train operation capability.
David
>>>NYCT's greatest operating expense (about 80% of the operating budget) <<
Including you, Mr ERA president?
Peace,
ANDEE
ERA? Electric Railroaders' Association? I have never been president of that organization, nor have I ever held any elected position with that organization. The current President of the Electric Railroaders' Association is Frank Miklos, who has held that title for several years.
I stand by my statement as to the makeup of NYCT's operating budget. Anyone with more accurate information is welcome to correct me.
David
Let's get practical here.
If NYCT were to reduce crews to 1, which position do they eliminate?
If it's the one in front, there's no one available to look out for any anomalies that the ATO/CBTC software doesn't see. If it's the one in the middle, the operator in front is 600' from the rear of the train and certainly can't see anything in person.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just genuinely curious. How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?
The same way one runs a 300' train or a 450' train or a 150' train.
David
I'm agin' it. The safest practice is two people per train. One to drive. And to look ahead. One for the doors. And to look up and down the train. I can't believe it's even being considered.
And a hundred years ago, the safest practice was a Motorman plus Gatemen between each pair of cars. Times change.
David
Watch what ya wish for ... there's "Magic 8 ball" technology out there which can replace many management titles in Civil Service, and DECIMATE those who are on committees and study groups. When chatting in a local watering hole with buddies of mine in Division of the Budget, recommended that they explore "Magic 8 ball" technology and DAMN if they didn't GO FOR IT! Whatta country! :)
Technology by and large has reduced middle management positions by a larger percentage then line worker positions.
"Technology by and large has reduced middle management positions by a larger percentage then line worker positions."
Really? What kind of jobs did middle managers (not immediate supervisors of line workers; they're not middle management) once do that technology now does?
>>> What kind of jobs did middle managers (not immediate supervisors of line workers; they're not middle management) once do that technology now does? <<<
Exception reporting computer programs have reduced quite a few staff management positions and extended the span of control of managers. This has reduced the number of levels of management. Now instead of having an area manager controlling three branches and a region manager with three area managers, a company might do away with area managers and have a regional manager control nine branches. This removes three line management positions along with staff managers at the area level for each region resulting in as much as a 75% reduction of middle managers.
Tom
There is only one way to go
Control the doors from the middle position and watch ahead via infrared camera for obstructions on the track.
The doors most likely will handle themselves also. The crew member would just be looking for draggers
In the current set up as posted on this board the conductor only looks out for dragger for the first few car lengths.
One person crews won't happen for at least 5 years. It is a change that is long over due
"How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?"
(1) CCTV. Cameras along the platforms looking at all parts of the train; monitors by the T/O's cab so that the T/O can check all the doors. T/O can be really driving the train, or just "minding" an ATO system, it makes no difference.
(2) Station staff. Put the station agents on the platforms instead of in booths. The platform staff check the doors and then give the T/O the right-away.
Well, # 2 sounds plausible. But what are you suggesting, some type of booth be constructed on platforms? I have a hard time seeing that. If these platform people are going to be on foot....the logistics seem unworkable. Especially at rush hour.
[How do you run a 600' train with 1 person?]
The same way BART, LACMTA, WMATA, MARTA, Metro-Dade, and other agencies run trains of varying lengths - up to 600 feet - with a crew of 1.
I'm not objecting to that, its going to happen sooner or later however I'm wondering if they're ready for automatic train operation and whether one person could man a 600' train by themself.
I agree, got caught by the blind GO last week. Well 2 & 5 riders, you're getting hit with a shuttle bus this weekend between 149 St/GC and East 180 St.
You think it's OK to bitch about 2 months with no Bronx-Thru Express service, we Brighton line riders had to endure a WHOLE year of no express service back in 1994-95, beacuse NYCT needed to replace the bridge structures from Avenue J to Sheepshead Bay. The project, it I'm not mistaken, took nearly 2 years to complete all the RR bridge structures.
Then we lost Brighton express service again for a few months in 1998-1999 for track replacement from Kings Hwy to Prospect Park. It finished shortly after the Willy-B project started, which saw R42's on the Q for a while.
Yes TWO consecutive summers of no Brighton express service in 1998-99 because of new track and tie installation between Parkside and Ave M. That was horrible too. Now we will lose Manny-B service on nights and weekends in just 2 months:
HELL THROUGH THE MONTAGUE RAT-HELL.
Look at how long we went w/o regular express service since 1986: April 1986-December 1988, 1994-early 1996 & 1998-summer 1999. F train riders got it worse [I ride that too sometimes :-)] they had NO regular Culver express since 1987.
GREAT! Now soon on weekends the beautiful sights riding on the Manny-B with the Q will be gone temporarily. DAMN Montague RATNNEL!!! But at least its for weekends only for about a year [things can change], look at how Sea Beach riders they went through the ratnnel for over 15 years except briefly in late 1990.
And what about us over here on the Far Rockaway line? Constantly having to deal with shuttle bus service. All for the rebuilding of these crossings, which never seems to get done. And its constantly on and off. It goes for 2 or 3 months, then lays off for a few, then comes back. Its kind of like the Manny B -- it will never be done. But at least with the Manny B you get alternative service, through the tunnel or whatever. Down here its shuttle bus, or a shuttle train (even worse).
I know what you mean Tony. I rode those shuttle buses over time but avoided the shuttle trains, no way I'm riding that. 5 riders got it "good" since they losing express service in the Bronx for only 2-3 months.
On my Brighton over ther years, there were times when we had no express AT ALL for a year usually on each project that came up. Soon the Q is supposed to get diverted into the Montague ratnnel on weekends; adding 8-10 minutes travel time.
at least the Brighton has 2 way express service
Yes but on weekdays only.
When the hell did you here that the Q is gonna be going through the tunnel on weekends? And for what reason?
It's been known for the longest. NYCDOT is replacing the Upper level, Manhattan Bound roadway, to do this, they have requested to NYCT that NO train traffic be allowed on the bridge. Much like the D and Q diversions back in 1995, all Q trains will go through the Rat hole on weekends and possibly nights. More info as to the start date will be known as C/R's and T/O's do their picks this week.
Oh god! If that happens,I can already start imagining how the bridge platform at Canal St is gonna be like. With no pillars to tape of the platform,scores of people are gonna be waiting there for trains that will never come without any idea whats going on.I think a certain G.O. of old reminds us of that.I was there and believe me,it wasnt pretty.
Whoa V Train, I'm surprised you didn't see all the discussion on that a while back. Kool-D mentioned what's going [should] happen in his post, I'm not going to be redundant.
I guess I must've forgotten about it.I sure don't remember reading any post about weekend Q trains over the tunnel.
I've been doing some net surfing trying to learn about some of the non-subway trackage in Queens, particulary as it pertains to the Rockaway Beach, Montaulk and Bushwick LIRR lines. Using Google, this pic turned up. It's labeled as being somehere on some line called the Evergreen branch. I have no idea where or what this branch is. In this picture, you can see gate cars on what's obviously the Myrtle Ave. el north of Broadway. I know of no surface ROW's which cross under the Myrtle Ave at an angle like this, except for the Montaulk LIRR diving under the line between Fresh Pond and Metropolitan. This is obviously not that location. Where is it!!!???
(The picture is dated in the mid 50's):
Try here...
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn1.html
or
http://lirrhistory.com/evergrn.html
Good Luck!!
The photo credited to W.J. Rugen and taken on 11-9-56 is in John Scala's Diesels of the Sunrise Trail (p109). It is captioned as being on the "Evergreen Branch" and states that the station stop for the BU cars above is Myrtle/Wycoff.
Hagstrom's map shows that branch leaving the Bushwick terminal and branching from that line to the south, just south of Wyckoff Avenue (apparently running underground between Jefferson and Himrod Streets and follows the (L) train to join the line to Bay Ridge just west of the Evergreen Cemetery. (The other line out of the Bushwick Terminal joins the Montauk line around Flushing Avenue)
Elias
Thanks. I've never heard of this branch before, and it threw me for a loop. I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists.
It's been long gone.....if that helps.
It helps to explain why I've never heard of it.
I think the forgottonny site has some details of what remains of this branch.
Yeah, it and lirrhistory.com had enough information about the line to give me a pretty good understanding about what and where it was.
I think on the other side of Wyckoff Ave over there is a White Castle.
Thanks. I've never heard of this branch before, and it threw me for a loop. I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists.
"I have to investigate the Wykoff Ave. area more closely to see what, if anything, still exists."
Better still, check out the Myrtle/Wyckoff station on the (M). You can see by the angle of the old buildings that the ROW was there. That also means there was a LIRR grade crossing in the street below the "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, look at that picture-
Since when did Barney Fife have a beat in Good Ol' Brooklyn? Think he hung around in Nunzio the Barber's joint?? :)
Maybe the photo shows part of the LIRR's forgotten Mayberry line that was discontinued around 1968...
Elias, I was able to borrow Scala"s book from a friend this weekend, and you missed quoting the first part of the caption which I think explains a lot.
The RDC's always had a good turnout for a fantrip
Diesels of the Sunrise Trail seems to be a great book, and I am enjoying reading it. I think it would be a "must have" for any LIRR fan.
Of course, I just finished looking at Evolution of the New York City Subways,and after looking at all of those terribly distorted pictures, maybe anything would look good.:-)
Diesels of the Sunrise Trail seems to be a great book, and I am enjoying reading it. I think it would be a "must have" for any LIRR fan.
That book is definitely the LIRR fan's Bible. Or at least more so before they replaced the diesel trains. It is one of the best books I have (except of course some of the subway books, which is still my favorite railfanning subject).
It looks more like an alley than a ROW....beautiful pic, Chris.
Hey, I didn't know Barney Fife had a beat in Bushwick :)
I can take a guess and say this is around the area of the Fresh Pond Road Station on the M line. This is the only location I think would be closest to a non-electrified line near an el that handled wooden gate cars. This was probably a spur track off the LIRR Montauk Division or from off the Bay Ridge line which junctions with the Montauk Division nearby. At first, I was thinking East New York on the Bay Ridge near Atlantic Ave, but by the 50's, gate cars were restricted to Myrtle Ave. I'm not sure when the Pitkin El closed west of the Grant Ave portal. Otherwise, I would sat this was ENY and the el train was heading to Lefferts at Atlantic Ave. But it would have been on the inner track, not the outer that Canarsie trains use.
Is the subway car in the street?
That's a LIRR railroad car, cat.
It looks a little like a Budd RDC car.
I wonder if it is a fan trip.
"It looks a little like a Budd RDC car.
I wonder if it is a fan trip."
It certainly was!
Bill "Newkirk"
Its not a subway car, its an LIRR Budd Rail Diesel.
And it is on the tracks on the Evergreen Division (paralell to and just south of Wyckoff.
Elias
The LIRR Evergreen Branch ran alongside the BMT Canarsie Branch from roughly Halsey to Jefferson Streets. The line also crossed UNDER the Myrtle Ave El at Wyckoff Ave. If you ever stand on the M platform away from the stairway to the street, (Roughly where the elevated train is) you can still make out the ROW for the route. Alot of places the ROW has been built over. But you can still make out the path.
That's an awesome photo.
As late as 1995, undisturbed areas of track still remained along the ROW. They existed mainly around Greene, Harmon, and Himrod Sts., as well as DeKalb, Stanhope, and Stockholm sts.
More info on the Evergreen Branch -
http://www.lirrhistory.com/evergrn.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn.html
The second link doesn't work without adding a 1,2 or 3 to evgrn before the period as in:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn1.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn2.html
http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn3.htmlThe picture that the thread is about is in http://arrts-arrchives.com/evgrn3.html
I know there are still some railroad crossing signs where the crossings used to be. I'm not sure which streets as I've driven on most but don't remember which still had the signs. I think Gates Av, Cooper Av, and/or Halsey St might still have the crossing signs even though there is no trace of the tracks.
I know there are still some railroad crossing signs where the crossings used to be. I'm not sure which streets as I've driven on most but don't remember which still had the signs. I think Gates Av, Cooper Av, and/or Halsey St might still have the crossing signs even though there is no trace of the tracks.
I took this photo about 10-12 years ago at Jefferson Ave. The cross-sign was still there, even though the line hadn't been used for years. I haven't been there for a long time, so I don't know if it's still there now.
You can easily see where the ROW was, even though there are no tracks on much of it. AT Wyckoff it is very clear. It ran through along the edge of where the White Castle parking lot is now, and under the station, next to a triangle-like shaped red brick building (built like that because of the ROW), and then down what now seems like an alley, into a supermarket parking lot. There are some homes built on it in the distance if you are looking west, but you don't even have to get off the Wyckoff platform to notice how the LIRR ROW went. The homes are obvious because they are "modern" looking brick buildings, as opposed to the turn of the century buildings that are all around.
My educated guess is Cornelia Street. I used to live around the corner on Putnam Ave between Myrtle & Wycoff. Putnam traffic ran towards Brooklyn and Cornelia Traffic ran towards Queens. I am basing this judgement on the position of the sun and the Wycoff Avenue corner that seems to have some garages in the upper left of the picture. Friedrich's knitting mill used to be a one story building on the corner of Putnam & Wycoff. It may have run the whole length of the block. Please e mail me at brtpcc@aol.com and I will take a ride down there next week and confirm my guess. I'll even take an updated picture. My father & I used to walk those tracks from Ridgewood to East New York on saturday mornings. Even in the late 60's they were seldom used.
Rich
Yup, you are right. It is probably Cornelia Street. I remember walking down Putnam Ave to get the ROW, and I mistakingly thought I remembered taking the photo looking towards Brooklyn, assuming it must've been Jefferson in that case, because I only went on a few streets in either direction of Putnam that morning. And since I took the photo in the morning, (and having lived on the morning shadey side of the street when I lived on Putnam Ave further up in Queens, which runs in the same direction as Jefferson), it can't be Jefferson, because this photo I now realize is looking towards Queens not Brooklyn.
An old railroader talking:
"I can remember a day in my own career very clearly. The Deltic-hauled train had arrived for the morning London Executive and I was making an unscheduled inspection to check quality. The stock was in a dreadful state with a First Class vehicle that shouldn't have been rostered for a trip to Scarborough never mind our premier train of the day. There was time, so I rang the carriage sidings to send down something better.
Feeling rather good, I did not expect a phone call from the Divisional Operating Mgr telling me I didn't have authority to change vehicle formations. I invited the chief to come and look at the offending veh. Unbeknown to me, the Duty Assistant Stn Mgr realised I was in for a roasting and had taken matters into his own hands.
We were looking at the offending First Class vehicle when he invited the DOM to sit down and see the problem for himself. What he hadn't told anyone was that water had been previously poured onto the seat to demonstrate that it was unfit for service..."
This is the stuff the real railroad is made of!
AEM7
I fail to sense the humor in this...what was supposed to be funny?
The First Class car had a defective water closet (loo.)
'In the Hole Speak English.' CI peter
I have a Permium Metrocard (whatever you call it) the one that is a monthly that is good for one year as I am on payroll deduction that pays Transit Check for it.
Well anyway, it DOES NOT WORK 9 times out of 10 in HEET's. Just the other day at Atlantic Ave, I went to the Q entrance which is just two HEET's (they took out the part time token booth) and swiped and swiped and all I got was "Swipe at this turnstile agian" over an over until BOOM "JUST USED" came up.
UGH,
So off to the token booth over by the #2, waited in line, handed the card to the clerk and told her I was trying to get into the HEET at the Q entrance and it just keep saying swipe and swipe until it came up just used.
SHE WOULDN'T LET ME IN, I pointed out that it was a yearly card, that she could see it was just a few minutes ago. She responded "how do I know you didn't swipe someone in?"
So there I sat for the lock out period.
Most of the time a clerk will let me in once it says "Just used" but as I said 9 times out of 10 I can't get it to work at a HEET.
Are the HEET's cleaned as regularly as the turnstiles are?
I bet not.
Is this a hint at what is to come when all these part time booths become HEET's??
I think so.
"Are the HEET's cleaned as regularly as the turnstiles are?"
I just asked this question a few days ago and got responses that suggested S/As are less likely to keep them clean.
you mean the entrance at ashton place from the LIRR to the Q onlyat the north end?
I use it every day and i have never had a problem
a note a bout that exit: ive seen many times when people go up those stairs thinking they could transfer, but go up then see its only an exit. they should put up a sign "NO Transfer"
Do you think people REALLY read these signs. At one time, there was a sign that said "Use other stiarway for transfer to 2,3,4,5, etc.), and people STILL don't read it.
Yes that entrance, I have yet to get my card to work in the HEET's there.
They shouldn't bother, people normally DON'T look at signs anyway. It says "Exit Hanson Pl", when they see that and NO routes then they should realize that the transfer is not there.
Guess what?
today a sign was put up at the ashton place exit from the Q to the LIRR warning riders not to exit here if they want to transfer!
Maybe someone at that station saw my post....well its a possibility, there are many "subreaders" who dont post too much...
The problem is most likely a combination of two things
1) as metricards age their stripe's get scatched which makes it harder for them to be read. I place my card in a protective sleave and the average useful life before the card begins to fail abit in dirty swipes is about 3-4 months. Grant it I am not the most gentle user.
2)Currently HEET's slots are not cleened as routinely as regular turnstyles. Current turnstyles are cleaned by s/a. The s/a is likely to clean these swipes often to prevent extra work when scrated up cards become harder to read. There is no incentive to pay as much attention to HEET's due to the fact that they don't have to deal with the problem and station automation is a threat to S/A. More importantly to the union big wigs.
On the back of your annual Metrocard is a phone number. Call them ASAP. There has been a problem with the annual cards lately. We agents in the booth can't do a thing about them. We can't transfer the amount from the card to another. But call up ASAP. It's a waste to have a premium card that won't work.
The thing is it works fine in a turnstile but I have problems in HEET's.
What does HEET stand for?
HEET= High Entry/Exit Turnstile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a new fangled name for an 'Iron Maiden'.
Heh, I like to call them "egg slicers".
Peace,
ANDEE
You are talking about the Hanson Place entrance, at one time the right HEET was not working at all. No message of any kind when you correctly swip your card. Now it's fixed, it still doesn't work.
It sure was sneaky for NYCT to "close" the part time booth, the same way they closed the P/T booth at Tremont Ave/Concourse Line station when that station went for an in-house renovation back in 1998-99.
When this happens to me, I swipe it as fast as possible over and over again, and eventually it works. It might take ten minutes though.
I'm not surprised at that :-\. I hardly had problems at HEET's but once in a while I do have to swipe multiple times before I get in. If you're really having problems, you should use the turnstiles on the LIRR platform or the full time entrance near the IRT to enter.
I tried the turnstiles at the bottom of the LIRR platforms (ones that say NO TOKENS) and had the same problem where as I was even thinking of jumping the turnstile. Seems to me it is a cleaning issue.
Hehe, the swipe really needs to be cleaned up, wonder if they are forgotten about sometimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pataki signs bill cutting property tax for railroads
By JOEL STASHENKO
Associated Press
2/1/2003
ALBANY - Gov. George Pataki said Friday he has signed a bill into law that will cut property taxes for railroads by nearly half, and cushion the ensuing revenue blow somewhat for local governments.
The Rail Infrastructure Investment Act, approved by the state Legislature last year, will also end a long-standing dispute between localities and railroads over the property tax assessments on tracks, rail yards and other facilities.
Pataki predicted that the law will result in the expansion of rail lines across the state and, in turn, spark economic development. Having easy access to freight rail lines is crucial for many companies' manufacturing operations, Pataki said.
The law will roll back property taxes by 45 percent over the next seven years on railroad holdings. CSX Corp. and other freight haulers own the tracks used by Amtrak passenger trains. CSX has complained that while it has 7 percent of its tracks nationwide in New York, it pays 31 percent of its property taxes in the state.
Losses to local taxing units in the first two years will be made up entirely by the state. For the eight years after that, the state will cover 50 percent of the losses to local governments. The state offset, totaling up to $70 million, would lapse after the 10th year.
The freight lines had complained that there was little incentive for them to improve or expand facilities if they would have to face what they regarded as exorbitant new property tax assessments as a result.
The law will head off litigation by freight lines against towns, school districts and other property taxing jurisdictions in the state over property tax assessments in 2003 and future years. CSX said it is still pursuing a settlement in the federal court suits it filed in White Plains against local governments over tax assessments in 2001 and 2002. The company said it saw its tax bills jump by 55 percent during those two years alone and is disputing tens of millions of dollars in charges.
from www.buffalonews.com
Will CSX put back the second set of rails between Albany & Buffalo now? I think not, that's what Amtrak was supose to do, but they don't have the money or desire anymore. Guess the Turbos still won't be used on that route :-(
Nope ... the STATE is supposed to pay for all that. CSX didn't want to pay the TAXES, this has NOTHING to do with construction. State taxpayers have to build the rails, and there's talk of having Department of Transportation doing the MAINTENANCE. With this year's budget though, don't hold your breath.
The REAL issue IMHO is will NYSDOT or ATK have ironclad prioriy on the "second main track" as any other RR building a joint two track main would? This may seem arcane but the real issue for passenger/taxpayers is how often CSX will "sideline" them for "priority freight". We will have a similar joke in Northern Ca soon as U FINALLY spends the state money to reinstall the second main between West Sacto and Davis which was removed during Moyers' time as head of SP. The issue is critical because this bottleneck has contributed to unreliable operation of the Capiyol Corridor trains.
CSX, unfortunately, is a mooing sacred cow to the politicos. I'm not aware of ANY such provision in the taxpayer-supported trackage that may eventually get built for CSX. The PLAN is for CSX to "own" that second track after we've paid for it though, that's the REASON for this voodoo dance over the property taxes since CSX was concerned that the taxpayer-funded rails might raise their local property taxes for "improvements" ... draw conclusions as you wish.
But no, I looked over the master plans back when the Joe Bruno train station was being built, and there's NOTHING in there about priorities and CSX WOULD be the "owner" ... so what happens would be up to them, so long as they don't have to pay any taxes. :(
Gee, what happened to Amtrak's involvement in all this ?
The Turbos would be a Amtrak vs. M-N operation. I was sure I had read somewhere that the new problem was that Amtrak doesn't have the money anymore to kick in for this. I had never heard that NYS-DOT was paying for the 2nd track.
What's the frequency of the freight on that line ?
The second track in question runs from Albany to Schenectady, paralleling an existing track on an embankment where a second track once existed. So it's simply a matter of some grading work (to restore eroded portions (not many) and lay down wood and iron. It's a short distance. As to freight on it, not all that much. The major CSX Chicago line bypasses city of Albany through Selkirk and where I live (at least 10 TPH through here, often more) ... but there is some interchange done on that one track to CPRail and local setting out of cars. Not much of that either. So CSX is correct in their attitude that *they* don't need that second track, but Amtrak does. CSX is fond of the saying "screw Amtrak" and their boy, John Snow, is now Bush's ... oh forget it.
But that track (along with CSX scheduling along the TWO track zone from Schenectady west) is the reason why the Lake Shore and other Amtrak runs west of Smallbany is about as reliable as a Yugo. And since CSX won't do it, means that YOU the taxpayer must. Shoes for industry, shoes for defeat. Still won't solve the scheduling problems though, that's ENTIRELY CSX.
Sounds like CSX has learned how to do railroading from the boys at Guilford ?
Might end up that MTA (M-N) buys the ROW to solve the problem, why, well Gov. George wants to do it; the ROW is totally in NYS; and George controls the MTA. Then the tax payers will loose ALL the money.
AH! You REMEMBER them "GuilCup" guys? Them who's da "Springfield Terminal" ... LITERALLY! :)
YO, AMUE brother, holder of the scared wedge, keeper of the timetable (in crayon) and chocker of da wheel! Guilforb was a PIKER compared to these Florida swamp, brain damaged hosers of touristas ... lemme put it to you THIS way ... Ringling Brothers trainsets are marked CSXX ... 'nuff said. When the circus takes winter break, Bozo's in Dispatch with double-beer-can-hat firmly attached to the cranial interface, face down, dribbling into the relay cabinet. Much like me (been a HELL of a night) finally celebrating in the company bar after a NASTY night of nasties.
But yeah, much like the ne'er-do-wells I make a living keeping out of machines, the CSX guys would be RICO status if only the laws were enforced (steal a loaf of bread, do 10 years ... steal 10 billion in pension funds, become a CABINET member. But I digress.
Not to worry about MTA getting stuck with the bill, if MTA has coverage, then BRUNO'S district would need to start paying MTA taxes. It'd benefit the CITY!!!!! Bruno stomping faces ... no, they'll screw EVERYBODY with the price. Bruno will NOT allow the MTA to tax *HIS* county ... no sirree ...
There's a better chance of MTA saying, "OK Branford ... we appreciate the good will you guys have created on subtalk by allowing ordinary people 'handle time' which is something WE would never do. OK, We'll give Branford $46 Billion to cover the costs of acquiring every subway car in creation, extending the ROW to downtown New Haven, and give you every subway car in existence to run on your 10 mile *EL*" ... and paychecks for EVERY member who shows up! *FAT* paychecks!
Ummmm ... Joey'll surcharge your cell phone. :)
Since it's slow, Guilford Transportation (MELLON BANK) used to own the Delaware and Hudson (D&H, a local railroad) up until they had a moneycramp and sold the venerable D&H to CPRail. On the ***DAY*** that the sale went through, the crews hit the yards with flat black paint (ON THEIR RDO, and with BLE/UTU permission!) to paint over that *G* from hell on every loco in every yard in D&H country.
CPRail repainted SEVERAL GP38's in the original gray, blue and yellow (with lightning stripe) of the proud, former DELAWARE AND HUDSON ... Guilford. *PTOOO!* CSX is an IMPROVEMENT! Gack. :(
There's a better chance of ... We'll (MTA) give Branford $46 Billion to cover the costs of acquiring every subway car in creation, extending the ROW to downtown New Haven, and give you every subway car in existence to run on your 10 mile *EL*" ... and paychecks for EVERY member who shows up! *FAT* paychecks!
I would be happy with the 1/4 mile to the Shoreline Main, then trackage right up to Middletown (nice swing bridge there for Uncle DD to dump everything but BMTs in the drink). Going the otherway we'll put al El over 95 past New Haven & drop rust on all the traffic!
Yea sure we will ... beter be content with going ding ding :-(
Ding dang! Well, as long as we're dropping spikes on I-95, we gotta build some tunnel too with a nice, sharp S curve so Unca Dougie can rip that controller all the way around. :)
What Federally supported group, often decried as unnecessary and wasteful, has not had a recieved $ increase in its budget since 1991, operates a fleet predomiently designed in the mid to late 1970's and has been unable to invest in new technoligical based capital improvements and safety upgrades?
You don't have to answer because I am sure you saw the title of my thread, but anyway I just saw a 60 Minutes report that brought up these interesting points. I don't really know what big picture paralells can be drawn here, but I do know that I'll be mighty pissed off if we loose an Acela Regional train reentering Penn Station.
I want an expectation of ZERO risk on the rails, and the riders go in expecting pretty close to that. The shuttle scientists accept that there is a fractional risk -- which doesn't lessen the tragedy.
I'm more concerned when the oil-based transport -- car and air -- gets expensive, destabilizes, and the safety record drops. Those riders will want to switch to a near 100%-safe ride, and they'll flood the rails. Will we be ready?
Today my wife and I decided to celebrate Chinese New Year with Dim Sum at a restaurant in Sunset Park, so I had occasion to be on the Sea Beach. C.I.-bound W trains were running on the Sea Beach instead of the West End, and they were running on the one, viable express track! On the way, our stop was local (8th Avenue), so we had to transfer at 59th Street from the W, which was running local on 4th Avenue, to an N train. However, on the way back home, I was able to witness a W train running on the seldom-used ROW while on the platform. Unfortunately, I was sans-camera. Enjoyed riding the N express "shuttle" between 59th and 36th Street, though.
Turned out to be a hell of a day, eh? Good. I always like to hear people enjoy riding my favorite train, but if you don't take offense I would still like it to become an express again, over the Manny B, running express in both boroughs, and, of course, getting back to Coney Island again. BUT YOU GUYS HAVE HEARD ALL THIS BEFORE, and I'm waiting for some terse comment from my good friend Kool-D on this matter. Your turn Kool one.
I remember thinking, "I bet Sea Beach Fred wishes he was here today!" We would have had a great time riding on the line, as long as we avoided political discussions. :O)
Wasn't they supposed to start the renovations last month? What's the hold up?
Remember, its the MTA! Right now they're focusing on fixing the middle track and the signals from 149 St to East 180 St.
The subject says it all but of course I have questions, LOL!
I never been in Chicago, I always wanted to visit there and take the "L" (systemwide, of course!!!) So I'm traveling via moving truck for a friend of mine (I'm going alone) from Florida to Colorado and since I have whole week of vacation to spare and the truck rental gives me unlimited mileage and 9 days of use!!!)
How long is to ride the whole CTA subway system?
I'd like to visit downtown Chicago, anything interesting there that you can recommend?
Are there any Chicago (TRANSIT-ONLY) museum (just like NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn)?
Any other suggestions are always welcomed!
Thanks!
Michael Calcagno
Well, there's the Art Institute of Chicago, I wouldn't miss that.
You should peruse my recently revamped Chicago El pages, look for good photo spots (and look for stations w/ no photos to help me out! :-)
-Dave
Museum of Science and Industry!!! (includes large model RR built to spec for BNSF, original Burlington Zephyr, and more.
Ride Metra Electric from downtown.
Make sure you ride METRA and check out both the CNW station (via the platforms) and Union station (via Roosevelt Ave overpass). the METRA line I would most recomend is an express run out or from Aroura.
Two sites that are necessary to aquaint oneself to the 'L', and remember in Chicago it is not EL, but 'L' are listed below:
http://www.transitchicago.com/
http://www.chicago-l.org/
Of course there is the METRA Electric and the South Shore also.
While most of the 'L' system is safe to ride, be cautious during school hours and don't take expensive camera or video equipment on the lines.
Be alert of those around you and remember that there is only an operator in the front of the train - no conductors.
Unfortunately, the best railfan seat in any city is no longer available. Philadelphia has taken Chicago's place of having the best railfan seat, as Chicago removed theirs a few years ago to convert equipment to full-wide cabs for OPTO. However, you can stand on any train upfront on the left side of the car and have a view of the railroad ahead.
My favorite lines are the Ravenswood (Brown)Line, Evantston (Purple), the last express on the 'L' which operates at rush hour, the Red Line from Fullerton to Howard, and the Skokie, with it's third rail changing to overhead. The overhead will be a thing of the past possibly by the end of this summer. Anyway, read all about the system on L-org. Graham has a good site.
Enjoy, and don't forget to pack a winter coat and some sweaters!
Jim K
Chicago
I would say goto http://www.transitchicago.com/ and buy the Vistors Pass on line before you leave. I did this before I left and I found it wouth it. I was there for 3 days so I got a 3 day pass. I also picked up the others so I could just add them to my MC Collection.
I rode most of the line within these 3 days. I still think I should have made it back to the yellow line. It might be only two station but it was still fun. Also the Blue line have Grade Crossing to Camek. Also this line is getting compley rebuild from the ground up even thought the line is still running.
I hope that I could get back there one day. I still can't beleave it almost a year since I was there, and this was only becouse my wife was studing for her last Mid-turms and wanted me out of the house.
Robert
Well, I will try this again, I thought I posted a long message a few hours ago, but apparently my computer messed up or I hit Reset.
The CTA only has 2 lines that use the subway. The Blue and Red Lines downtown and the Blue line at Logan Square, Belmont, and O'hare.
There is lots of things to do and see in downtown Chicago and all over the city, depends what your digs are. Musts are the Sears Tower, riding around the Loop on the L, State Street and Watertower Shopping, and of course during the summer Wrigley Field. That's not nearly everything though, there is lots more to do and see just depends what you like. Many ethnic neighborhoods also all over the city, Pilsen with Nuevo Leon near the Blue Line at 18th and Leona's near the Red/Brown/Purple at Belmont are two of my favorites. But that's not nearly all, Chicago has almost ever kind of food you can think of. (Including famous pizza)
As the other guys mentioned, no transit-only museums like NYC, but the museum of Science and Industry is a must. You can take Metra's Electric line there and they have a cool train exhibit now. Also not to mention, the rest of the museum is great, you can easily spend a whole day if you've never been there.
Here is a summary of 4 of my must Chicago Rail rides for out-of-towners.
Metra:
Electric to Museum of Science and Industry as posted above. $4.10 round-trip.
BNSF Line to and from Aurora. You can use express trains both ways on weekdays during rush hours. This make the ride really great. The express portions both ways are for or over 20 miles at 70mph top speed most of the way. $9.80 round-trip.
CTA: ( You can purchase daily passes for the lenght of your stay, cheaper then paying $1.50 for each ride and more convient)
Green Line to and from Harlem/Lake in Oak Park. Newest completely re-built L Line in 1994-1996. Line is very fast, and has some great streches with no stations. Especially in and out of Ashland either way.
Blue Line to and from 54th/Cermak. Branch is currently under $482 million dollar re-construction project. It is very interesting to see what new work is being done as each month passes by. New 54th/Cermak station, which will be newest L station on entire system is set to open in March or April. Temporary station at Laramie, 2 blocks east of 54th is also interesting with the old station converted into a temporary terminal. Also lunch at Church's chicken at 54th/Cermak proper is a must, best fried chicken in Chicago in my opinion and also the cheapest.
These are just a few of the things you can see and Train rides you can take. If you want really specific directions and information for the time you are here, e-mail me at my address below. Just tell me how many week days and weekend days you will be here and exactly what you want to see, also where you are staying in city or burbs. I know the city and surrounding areas very well, have lived here my whole life, and can then help you make a specific plan for your trip.
I know that the first time I was in NYC was very complicated. This summer will be my fourth time and it took me almost a whole day of studying the subway map to plan my directions for my trip this year. Chicago isn't nearly as complicated as NYC, but it certainly helps if you have someone who knows the city and transit system help you plan your trip. The people on this board have always been great in helping answer any questions I had about NYC
My E-mail address: BJ7200@aol.com
A great express run is the Evanston Express. It runs rush hours only.
Pilsen with Nuevo Leon near the Blue Line at 18th and Leona's near the Red/Brown/Purple at Belmont are two of my favorites.
I like Nuevo Leon, and it's around the corner from where my grandparents lived. But my favorite Mexican food in Chicago is from the street vendors at the Maxwell Street Market (which is really on Canal Street at Roosevelt). It's not only good, but it's CHEAP, too!
Of course, the market is an experience in and of itself...
I didn't get a chance to take an architectural tour of Chicago last time I was there, and I really regret it. Chicago is the birthplace of the steel-frame skyscraper, and there are excellent examples of every architectural style there. My favorites are the wonderful beaux arts buildings along the Chicago River, like the Wrigley and many others, that date from an era when steel buildings were stil given ornate stone skins, hiding the modern framework inside.
Mark
Mark
Mark:
When was the last time you've been to Chi-town?
Mayor Daley did away with the street vendors, Maxwell Street is all bulldozed down to make way for redevelopment, townhomes, and UIC, and the area that was once Maxwell Street, well you wouldn't recognize it.
Most of the street vendors were Latinos that sold the corn on a stick, I can't spell the correct name, along with other heart grabbing favorites. All are pretty much gone when Daley deceed - no more street vendors. You can't even get a hot dog downtown from an vendor anymore.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim,
I was in Chicago August 2001. Then the market was on Canal Street, and the vendors were selling homestyle tacos, burritos, and tamales, looking a lot like the stuff you'd see on the street in Mexico itself.
Mark
Mark:
I guess they moved east from Halsted.
I don't get down there much, and there isn't any reason for me to go there. I used to like to ride the 'L' to 18th Street, but since it doesn't run on weekends anymore, I don't get over there either.
I miss those excursions.
Thanks for the direction.
Jim K.
Are you thinking you want to ride every line at least a short distance, or are you thinking you'd like to ride past every station?
You could probably ride every line except the Yellow Line in an hour or so, probably less, at rush hour in the Loop (the Yellow never comes to the Loop). But you wouldn't go very far on any of them. If you wanted to include the Yellow Line, you could probably ride them all at least one stop in a little over two hours or so starting and ending in the Loop.
But, if you had the crazy notion you wanted to ride all the lines past every stop, it would probably take you at least a full day, with good planning. I think the actual track time one way would be about 7 hours (or a little less), and that wouldn't count back-tracking to get to other lines, etc. It's smaller than New York, but it ain't tiny either. :-)
I'd also suggest walking the Loop alongside the El. Along with seeing some great building architecture, there are multiple multi-level parking garages right alongside the Loop, which make for some great pictures! There's a parking garage right next to Tower 18 that you should be sure not to miss, especially during rush hours! Trains in your face every minute!
--Mark
A word of caution about the parking garage located by Tower 18 (Lake & Wells). There are signs stating no trespassing, and violators will be prosecuted. I asked permission to photo from tier 3 and was soundly told NO, and don't get caught doing it.
Just pointing out something that could spoil your trip.
I would follow Mark's advice however, take a walk along the Loop 'L'. It is exciting just watching the tranins run along the overhead structure, especially at the curves.
Jim K.
Chicago
I'm planning to stop by both cities before stopping by Chicago...
Anything interesting in downtowns of Atlanta and St. Louis besides riding both systemwide?
Atlanta - how long is to take ride systemwide? (I know St. Louis is about an hour each way)
Are there any transit-=related museum or stores (just like NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn and Tranist store of Grand Central)?
Any other suggestions are always welcomed!
Thanks!
Michael Calcagno
I can help you a bit on Atlanta, as I visited the city briefly last year.
I was changing airplanes, so I didnt have a chance to explore the city, though I did cover all of MARTA. It took me about 6 hours to ride the whole system, end to end, with time for a few pix. I emailed MARTA before my visit and asked about photography, they faxed me a little note on MARTA letterhead giving me photo permission, though I wasnt challenged.
The spur to Bankhead is the most interesting part of the system (IMHO), 2-car trains with a single track relay beyond the station. The architecture at Five Points is interesting too.
I would also suggest checking out the people mover at the airport, its well worth it, they run 4-car trains of (I think) C-100 type cars, a very impressive operation that is heavily used. If I recall properly, its within security though, but if you are flying in its no problem to ride. They dont harass photographers.
ENJOY YOUR TRIP
Conrad Misek
As for the Airport people movers, stay on the train past the baggage claim dropoff riding in the first car. The train goes into the maintenance area prior to reversing. Pretty cool.
It's past Concourse E, not Baggage Claim, interesting nevertheless.
I guess if they ever build a concourse F the tram will go right thru the maintenance facility.
I think the expansion plans call for the building of a second terminal complex south of the current one, running parallel to it, rather than adding more terminals to the current complex. There would also be a second MARTA station to serve the new par tof the airport.
Mark
From what I've heard, the system would be extended from Baggage Claim and make a huge U-turn to the new South Terminal. I wonder how long that would take to ride.
Would it be possible to make the people mover into a giant oval circuit running through the two terminals? That would mean they'd never have to turn trains around.
Mark
Good question. I imagine they *could* but consiering the the new terminal will have only one concourse attached (maybe with room for a second in the far future), that would be a hell of a loop with a very long distance between the south concourse and concourse E. I don't know if it would be worth it.
All the museums in St. Louis's Forest Park are free, and the park is easy to get to on Metrolink. Also, there's the International Bowling Museum and Hall of Fame (home of the bowling pin-shaped car) at the Busch Stadium Metrolink stop. Also there's Cahokia Mounds state park across the river in Illinois. It's an archeological site, dating from ~1200, and it was the largest pre-Columbian city in what is now the U.S. with a peak population of about 20,000. I have pictures of it my website. Get there by taking the #6 bus from the Emerson Park Metrolink station. The bus ride is only 14 minutes according to the schedule.
Oh yeah, there's also that Arch thingy.
Mark
Laclede's Landing in St. Louis has several nice bars and restaurants (get off at Laclede's Landing Station). It also has a microbrewery that has great beer (forgot the name, but there is a map along the area listing all eating establishments-it is a two story building). The Admiral Casino on the St. Louis riverfront is very close to the Laclede's Landing. On the other side of Eads Bridge in East St. Louis is the Casino Queen, right next to the East Riverfront Station.
Try toasted ravioli. It is a St. Louis speciality served at the majority of Italian and local pizza restaurants. It is breaded ravioli that is fried, and is absolutely tasty!
Another nice area is the Central West End, with good restaurants and shops. Go north of the Central West End Station, and cross Forest Park Boulevard (about 5 minute walk).
Enjoy your visit in St. Louis.
The microbrewery in St. Louis Laclede's Landing is Morgan Street Brewery on North 2'nd Street.
In Atlanta, there's all sorts of resturants and neighborhoods around most stations. There isn't much traditional tourist things outisde of downtown (which is a good thing), but plenty of stuff to do no matter what to like to do. If I were you, I would pick up a tourist guide, they usually summarize most of the cool things to do around the city. There's cool stuff around Decatur, Inman Park (on Moreland Ave, east of the station), North Ave, Lenox and Buckhead stations.
"Anything interesting in downtowns of Atlanta and St. Louis besides riding both systemwide?"
Well, in St. Louis we have the Bowling Hall of Fame.... (VBG) Touring the Anheuser Busch facility is very interesting. Laclede's Landing is full of nightclubs and restaurants, and there are two casinos downtown, although one is actually across the river in East St. Louis, Illinois. That's the Casino Queen and it has its own MetroLink stop!
Before I put these tokens up on Ebay, I'm making a special offer to my fellow/gal Subtalkers. The current subway token will soon be a thing of the past. I have a limited quantity of these tokens that I will make available for $3.00 each plus shipping and handling of $2.00. No combining of multiple orders. These tokens are a must for any serious collector and will make a great addition to your collection. You cannot buy these at a Metrocard Vending Machines. Get your order in now, before these tokens are withdrawn from use. After they are withdrawn, there's no telling what unscrupulous dealers will ask for these pieces of history.
Please check my feedback rating by looking up heypaul(-425), and you can rest assured that your money will be in good hands.
I'm interested, sounds good to me !
By the way, I'm still waiting for the deed to that gothic arched bridge over the East River you sold me last month.
Bill "Newkirk"
Will you take a personal check? :)
I've got a hundred or so WWF tokens that I've stepped all over
so they are not mint.....but they do not exist anymore.
The World Wildlife Fund issued tokens? :)
The World Wrestling Federation issued tokens perhaps?
"World Wresting Foundation" LOST the copyright and trademark suit brought about by the Panda people a year or two ago. They've since become "WWE" or something like that as a result. So, up against the wall, you're under arrest for trademark infringement, buddy. :)
But Jesse Ventura is still governor ... somewhere. Tim Pawlenty replaced Jesse in Minnesota, so the "WWE" is now a fringe party. :)
Two of those tokens got you a minutes or so of crappy video game play
in Times Square, four tokens got you a crappy sim. Never got anything beyond the occasional cup of coffee I made myself in their big kitchen....I carried my lunch and snacks. Disappeared between the back of the video game cabinets and the wall for a break. Cheapass whiners and ingrates.......the wrestling thing is a scam to suck in money from the retarded. Now let's go for the real deal: Hulkmania versus Juice Redbird
Heh. Yeah, but the thought of a Governor parading around a ring in pink feathers and a boa does have some appeal. :)
Maybe the old WWF restaurant at Times Square turned into a modern day H&H automat. Or maybe in the back room their divas made little movies.
[Please check my feedback rating by looking up heypaul(-425), and you can rest assured that your money will be in good hands.]
I can hardly wait for when you offer the Brooklyn Bridge for sale on ebay...
You better not really have a -425 rating!
I don't have cash, but just hand me a token and I'll scan you in...
Saw this on NYRail.Org. A Staten Island Rapid Transit MU that never left SI, gone to seed in Travis. Cut and paste, it might load slow.
http://www.nyrail.org/sir/travis/35_opposite-side.jpg
Bill "Newkirk"
who wants to pool in to rent a crane and buy some land, we could use it for photo shoots
Why can't we go take it? We can put it somewhere, fix it up, and display it.
---Brian
"Why can't we go take it? "
I'm not sure who owns it or it's owned by anyone. I know SIR / MTA no longer owns it. Maybe Railway Preservation or Trolley Museum of NY.
"We can put it somewhere, fix it up, and display it."
Answer - NEED $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Anyway, I heard that car is pretty much stripped. It could be restored, but see my answer above.
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC, that was supposed to be TMNY's. Isn't that Car 353?
-Stef
There are no numbers on the car that I saw, and I visited it recently. it is inside the fence at the con ed plant, but that has not stopped the kids from trashing it. some of the end floors are rotted all the way through, and the seats are ripped apart. Preserving this relic will be expensive.
Yes, that's 353... a sorry end, to be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pretty grim, but I've seen worse. Does TMNY still own the car, or have they somehow relinquished ownership? Also, I don't know anything about the SI system. Is this car stored in a SIRT (I know, I know - MTA) yard?
Frank Hicks
Frank,
According to the TMNY roster, SIRT 353 is still rostered, but listed
as not on sight in Kingston. Hopefully, it looks better then
Queensboro Bridge #601, which is on sight in Kingston needing
"stabalization".
SIRT 353, was one of a trio of SIRT cars stored in a Con Edison
Yard, adjacent to SIRT. 388 went to sunny shore of Connecticut at Branford, while 366 went to the South of Maine at Seashore. Neither museum at this time have any plans for the SIRT cars, other then stabalization.
;-) Sparky
"According to the TMNY roster, SIRT 353 is still rostered, but listed
as not on sight in Kingston."
I guess I should read my own roster!!! :-)
Thanks for the info about 353, 366 and 388. Seashore says they got their car in 1993 (I guess from the MTA) - is that when Branford got 388 and TMNY acquired 353?
Frank Hicks
***[I guess I should read my own roster!!! :-)]***
LOL :-\
***[Thanks for the info about 353, 366 and 388. Seashore says they got their car in 1993 (I guess from the MTA) - is that when Branford got 388 and TMNY acquired 353?]***
To be honest Frank, I've heard many versions of the acquisition of
these cars. (You know Museum Inuendo). Not sure of what year 388
came to Branford. The fact that they were in outdoor storage on non-railroad property.
Con Edison, is the local transmitter of electricity to the MTA. Why???
I do not have the accurate details. May be someone else will chime in.
Now I'll have to look at your roster for preserved SIRT cars.
;-) Sparky
388 was at Shoreline when I visited it in 1995.
The SIRT Car? 1993. IIRC, 6688 was used as a tow motor for 388, one of the few times RT Cars cross the East Haven Trestle....
-Stef
My understanding is that there is some thought of at least painting and glazing 353 and moving it to a display site (Court Street transit museum, if they will allow it). If not, and TMNY changes their mind on its ownership, perhaps the parts will be split between Branford and Seashore. Car #366 at Seashore is nearly complete mechanically and physically, though there are some missing details (notably, windows).
I painted the roof, boarded up the broken windows, had the air compressor and traction motors serviced, and did a few other little things on 366. Im hoping for carbarn space at some near-future time as well. Contributions are always welcome.......
CONRAD MISEK
There's not a window in it, and what is there is seriously rusted. the trucks looked more or less intact, though I'm no expert on these things. There were also many parts tossed around the nearby area, and not one window in the car. Theres a few more photos of it tossed up here:
http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Other/SIRTCar/Damned.php
There are "politics" surrounding that car. TMNY acquired the
3 cars but had no financial means of bringing them up to Kingston.
In 1993, a deal was reached whereby Branford and Seashore each
took a car. [The] 353 is still owned by TMNY, but, from the
information I have, it has been de-accessioned from the collection.
I would have to rate the chances of preservation as poor. Eventually
the call will come that ConEd wants it out of there, and the
car will be scrapped. Hopefully the valuable parts will be saved.
I shouldn't speak for TMNY (maybe Evan J. will comment) but they
have a lot more important things to spend time and money on (like
getting a trolley wire up and energized) than to bring another
hulk up north. The only other hope is the Transit Museum, as they
have no examples of Staten Island equipment.
The reason 353 remains languishing there is at about the same time that the other former TMNY SIRT cars went to Branford and Seashore, there was discussion with the Borough President's office to restore the car and use it as a historic car on the SIRT system. However, nothing materialized. Over the years there have also been other proposals that would involve fixing and keeping the car on SI for various purposes, but those didn't go anywhere either. If anyone else has a serious proposal for disposition of the car, we're all ears.
I understand a similar conversation happend with some folks in NJ as the last of the K cars was getting cut up ... should have, could have, but didn't :-(
Oh DEAR, did I read that correctly - does that mean that they are ALL gone? I thought they were to keep some as work motors, with an eye towards preserving at least one pair. It is indeed a sad thing to hear that none of the K cars were preserved.
wayne
What is left are called the El Camineos, i.e. not much left to preserve.
Given the fact that 2 SIRT cars are already in the posession of museums, this car's preservation is not really imperative. If none were left, it would be a different story.
True, but none are on SI. Take the LIRR "hacks" as an example.
There are over a dozen still in existance in some form around the island at several locations, e.g. steam engine #35 (Oyster Bay); steam engine #39 (Riverhead); NY & Atl (has two that aren't used for their freight operation); Twin Forks (several have been put asside for them); and LIRR still has a few left. They include more then one style, e.g. wood cupola; steel cupola; transfer; bay window.
The most interesting part of this is that LI groups have found them off the island & gone thru the trouble & expense to bring them back, e.g. Branford had two it used as bunk houses. One went to the #39 folks & the other to the #35 folks. I was at Branford the day the #35 folks were applying a coat of paint before #12 took a ferry ride back home.
My point, I think it would be a good thing for some group on SI to come forward & preserve 353 on SI. Even if it just starts out as a part of a rest stop along the SI Expressway, i.e. a MP54 was saved on the LIE in this way.
Whew!!!! I thought for a second when I read your title you and others were about to bag on my Sea Beach train.
Where are the tracks the car is sitting on?
"Where are the tracks the car is sitting on?"
The Con Ed facility in Travis, Staten Island.
Bill "Newkirk"
What a shame. I was granted permission by Con Ed to photogragh the SIRT cars including the Whitcomb #9 in 1986 or 1987. I was under the impression that all cars had found homes in museums. I didn't realize that #353 was orphaned. I hate to say this but I'd rather see her scrapped than to be desecrated in such a fashion.
Want to get your loved one a unique Valentine's Day gift? Then consider naming a New York City subway car after them? For $48, your loved one's name is inscribed on a plaque and put anywhere you wish on the car. Imagine their surprise when they look up from the morning paper and find their name staring them in the face.
Honor your marriage by naming a married pair of cars after you and your mate for $125 Even if the future of your marriage is uncertain, you can rest assured that you and your mate will be linked together until the cars are retired or one or both of them are destroyed in a derailment.
We also have a limited number of 4 car and 5 car sets which are linked together and can be named to honor you, your mate, your children or even the family pet. Special rates will be supplied upon request.
Watch this message board for news of "Name a Subway Station". Soon you will be able to replace the name of a subway station with any name of your choosing. The corporations have been doing it with stadiums, so why not allow individuals to put their names on subway stations. Think of the pride you'll feel when the train arrives at a station with your name on it instead of "Ave J" or "Prospect Park". Your name will be on the lips of countless customers and crew members all the time. Prices will be scaled to the number of passengers using the station. Grand Central & Times Square will each cost $5 million dollars to rename. Order early, as these stations will go fast.
Do not be fooled by imitators. The International Subway Car Registry is the original subway car registry company.
Uh oh...sounds like heypaul's behind in his rent!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, I think he's been smoking something in the wee hours.
No doubt the same stuff that Andee'll be smokin' on Trevor's bus! :)
HEY, this belongs on BUStalk
Peace,
ANDEE
I trust there'll also be the required "Certificate of Authenticity" included at no extra charge? Will ya take a personal check? :)
>>>Will ya take a personal check? :) <<
NAH, but I here he accepts paypal. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Ewwwwwwwwww ... "Paypal" is actually in violation of New York State banking law somehow. Forget the details, but I don't play that after seeing how poorly they handle notifications of fraud we've sent them. I'll have to fill up some socks with quarters and pay that way. :)
Just hot off the wire at a L line station near you:
Beginning in 2 weeks (Valentines day weekend) 10 PM Friday to 5 AM Monday, and for the next 3 to 4 weekends, the following G.O. will take place:
Entire Line will run 15 minute headways all day (except of course late nights) AND will run in 3 sections:
1. 8th Ave to Union Square (Single Track?)
2. Union Square to Lorimer (Single Track a must) AND 3rd Ave, 1st Ave bypassed both ways, use M14 bus to access these stations.
3. Lorimer to Rockaway Parkway
The CBTC project is in full swing, and should be complete (hopefuilly?) by next year.
Flatbush41 I think this will be a fun G.O. for you to venture on, much like the A train/L train combo you did last month.
I just looked at the TA website and the G.O. was removed from there. I will tryto find out if it was canceled or it is just something wrong with the site.
Robert
It's new so the G.O. listing on the NYCT web site may be posted this Friday, it's the day when the site updates it's service advisories.
Yeah, maybe it will ;-) Man if L riders aren't hit with a shuttle bus then they're hit with something else. I saw the flyer when I was riding the L yesterday [I rode the shuttle bus yesterday no trains from Lorimer to Broadway Junction; good thing its only one weekend; I posted my story on Bustalk].
Here's what I think may happen:
1. 8 Av to Union Sq-> single track shuttle
2. Union Sq to Lorimer->single track then switches leaving Lorimer switching onto the Manhattan bound track
3. Lorimer to Rockaway Pkwy-> probably will terminate at the Manhattan bound platform at Lorimer then switches to the Canarsie bound track and heads toward Rockaway Parkway.
That's my predictions, can I be wrong yes.
Does anyone know the plot of this new film? I believe it is a foreign film and played to very good reviews at the Sundance Film Festival.
From the Internet Movie Database:
When his only friend and co-worker dies, a young man born with dwarfism moves to an abandoned train depot in rural New Jersey. Though he tried to maintain a life of solitude, he is soon entangled with an artist who is struggling with a personal tragedy and an overly-friendly Cuban hot dog vendor.
Ummmm, okay ....
That's peculiar....
Well, it's not a foreign film, but it might as well be :)
Was probably made by foreign filmmakers, just like that movie "L.I.E" (Long Island Expressway). Was filmed in some spots on Long Island, but if you sit through all the credits, most of them are, I believe, French.
>>> Was probably made by foreign filmmakers <<<
Like "Bagdad Café" (American title), a German film set in California which has European tourists regularly stopping in the tiny town in the desert on old Rte 66 to see the place it was filmed.
Tom
That's a normal flim at Sundance...
Now that I hear the synopsis, I remember I heard it reviewed on WFUV. Although the characters are all weird on the surface, you don't feel sorry for them. The reviewer liked the film.
A unanimous decision by the STB on Giulford RR's appear of a previous ruling that allowed 79mph "Class 4" status to the 115-lb rail line has now prompted the downeaster trains to increase speed from 60 to 79 mph, cutting some 15 minutes off of the trip time. Guilford has vehimently opposed the 79mph running for some reason, but he STB ruled that 79mph running would be safe of the 115# rail if Amtrak/NE Passenger Rail Auth make some minor upgrades to the line which they did.
Great news. Now if only I had the time to take another trip to Maine!
Too bad I can't see Bangor and Aroostook trains there anymore, though.
Mark
A ruling is just a ruling. The 79mph has not been implemented yet. Guilford can still put up "speed restrictions" if it wants. No start date for the improved running time has been set by Amtrak. More details from this week's Destination:Freedom newsletter.
Thanks Todd, for at least proving that Jerky Mikes postings from destination freedom can be done via links, rather than cut and paste. As he insists on doing weekly.
Peace,
ANDEE
D:F dosen't work on Netscape.
It doesn't? I use 4.74 with Win 98/2nd edition at home, and 4.6someting on Mac OS/9 at work... each with no problem.
That's funny, worked fine in 4.78
Well Selkirk was the one who was bitching about it. I'll try posting links next time and see if anyone complains. Personally I feel that just reading the text is better than following links.
Ahh, stop being so transparent. You're just trying to increase your message count. You have said as much in the past.
Peace,
ANDEE
Posting messages or links each generate one message, it makes no difference in that regard which one I do. The main reason post from D:F because it has articles that people should read
Mike -
Next time post one message with a link to each of the appropriate articles. See whether anybody complains.
That stimies discussion of the various topics. The thread title catches people's interest and one thread per topic makes it easier for people to comment on. You post seperate threads for the Inkie articles you find.
I accept your first point.
I post separate threads for separate Inkie articles because they appear on different days. I can't remember posting two in one day (this implies that I haven't done it this week).
Netscape 4.79 and the current 7.0 are technically two entirely different animals. 4.79 was the last real Netscape. It worked well, but can no longer handle VIA Rail and Best Western among others. 6.2 and 7.0 (both tedious to set up, especially for Subtalk) were written by the AOLers after Case fired the Netscape brains.
I like those headlines posted.
If they can do 79 MPH, they can do 110. Make Chuck Yeager the engineer. Give them the JUICE!!!!!!! CI peter
Guilford has such a heart-warming attitude (barf-bag, anyone)?
This train should be running at 79 mph. The truth is, Guilford's freight trains (do they run freight or was this a defunct line before, making my comment inapplicable?) should be running at 79 mph too.
Maintain the track and quit whining, I say.
Cool. I just did ERU downloads on a #5 and the T/O cranked the R142
downhill with a breeze at 46 MPH. I did 35 MPH on a scoot board going down Lexington Avenue from 86th Street based on a taxis spedometer...my transets are soooo slow. CI peter
Washington Post article about WMATA's latest effort to enforce the no-eating rules.
I was surfing NYCsubway.org and I saw that the sharp curve after Sutter Ave. (Manhattan-Bound) will be no more because the elevated structure above Snediker Avenue will be no more, along with much of the old Fulton El structure and a substantial portion of the Atlantic Avenue station. Construction on this project is scheduled to be complete in 2003. Does anybody have any additional information to this project?
L Line - Sutter Ave. (Manhattan Bound)
Joseph D. Korman has a great site, Joe Korner, with some info/pics you might be interested in
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/canarsie2001/index.html
That structure will come down soon, it was supposed to take place on 12/13 at the last day, (bad luck, Friday the 13th) but the infamous Transit strike threat put that and many other G.O.'s on hold that weekend. It will come doen VERY soon, like by April the latest. Ride the L train, look out the side window if you have to, and you will see the new trackage. Or go do a search on Subtalk and enter 12/8/02 through about 12/12/02 as the dates, we recently had a ERA R33 redbird trip with some pictures of the track realignment as we rode out to/from Canarsie on Sunday 12/8/02
Well you basically pointed out everything on the Atlantic Av project; everything that you said is suppose to happen. They removed(ing) the extra platforms & tracks at Atlantic Av and the turn will be gone so to everybody railfan now on the L before its too late. Also, ride the R42's while they're still out there!
At about 11 AM today, heading outbound on the inbound express track just west of Forest Hills: an all silver totally unmarked 2-car train. Looks just like regular passenger cars (I'm not an expert on models) but no markings.
Maybe this has been mentioned, but I don't recall it.
Any ideas?
Testing the M-7?
A strange sight on the LIRR? You mean, like, a train that's clean and on-time?
Does anybody know what this guy is talking about Phase V Superliner Cars? Phase V Superliner
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Phaze V is the "Acela" paint scheeme.
Phaze I is "heritage"*
Phaze II is "red nose"*
Phaze III is three stripe r/w/b
Phaze IV is "NE Direct"
Phaze V is "Acela"
Phaze VI/IVa is the return NE Direct take 2
*Heritgae might actuall be Phaze 0 with Phaze II being r/w/b stripes with a small white stripe.
I know exactly what Phase V is, I need to know is there a Phase V Superliner? I only seen the Superliners in Phase IV so far, I was aware there was a Phase V Superliner.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Well evidently the person posting the message saw one heading out of Chicago so I assume that it exists.
An article on MARTA's spending habits. Nat Ford has given us a fare increase and cut service, while we give him nice places to eat.
There's a mistake in the article, though, there is NO WAY that MARTA has 48,000 employees when the entire GA state gov't has only 100,000 people. The reporter probably meant 4,800.
No, no, no - we gave you Nat Ford JR. A recent rumor, though, has him coming to Ny to replace his dad.
And to think, "Senior" is a former conductor. Heh.
(according to the article anyway)
No, the article is correct. Nat Ford of the NYCTA and Nat P. Ford of MARTA do not share complete names. Therefore junior is no "Jr." Poppa Ford has no initial "P" and therein lies the difference.
"Thanks, NYC, for giving us Nat Ford"
No problem! Just one thing, Can you please come get his father too?
"'Thanks, NYC, for giving us Nat Ford'
"No problem! Just one thing, Can you please come get his father too? "
ROTFLMAO. Amen to that.
RobfromAtlanta,
Ditto on the gracias!
While I'm pissed that he left, I've been watching him since the 80s, his career is on the wane. The Mets will still continue the way they always conclude a game, losing.
I hear ya... ATL was untouchable in 1991 with GLAVINE-SMOLTZ-AVERY-
JUSTICE-GANT-and all the others under Bobby Cox.. In fact, I think
you folks had the STRONGEST rotation in all of tobacco spit that yr.
OT is OT.. Back to the trains~! :)
Here is an article today about Ford's response.
Oh, and a column about a proposed trolley for Atlanta has a paragraph poking fun at MARTA frills:
And now we learn that MARTA executives spend thousands of the taxpayers' dollars on steak dinners, and thousands more on private trainers to help them work off their bellies!
To all,
I have posted the itinerary and other information for SubTalk DC on April 5th on my website. I encourage anyone interested in coming on the trip to read it. There might be some sort of Amtrak discount depending on when you buy your tickets so check out amtrak.com for more info on that. The next step is to devise contingency plans on what to do if the cherry blossoms are not in bloom, and I will post info there when I finish that.
Click here for the SubTalk DC Page. I suggest you bookmark this and e-mail me to join the STDC mailing list, informing you of future updates to that page. I also asked Dave to add this to the upcoming events list.
Hope to see a few of you in April!
Just added one thing, if you already read it, look for the thing about Lindsay Layton. If you haven't already read it, what are you waiting for?
During rush hour, does the Flushing Express go in only one direction(Queens Bound)? Because I see there's only one track on the Elevated Track for Express runs.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The # 7 flushing Express runs express in the morning to manhattan and in the evening rush hour express to flushing
john
You're half correct. It runs express to Manhattan during the AM and to Flushing during the PM. It's like the other 3-track lines that have rush hour express service such as the #4 (138th Street), #5, #6 & D in The Bronx.
Wayne
Pick up a subway map and read the service guide in the lower right hand corner. It should answer your questions. For more details, look up the route schedules on the MTA web site.
I don't need to, I already received responses from prevous posts.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I know, but I'm suggesting that before you post such a basic question, you do a few seconds of research on your own, and you might find the answer without wasting our time.
".....nuff said."
Ok How about just not posting? I already had responses, you didn't have to post.
Ignore the critics. At least your post was an intelligent question, not a foolish rant or a trip into the transit twilight zone (like the poster who suggested the MTA buy one common set of rolling stock for all of its rail operators).
BTW, the #7 Express is a little better than a rush only service. It operates from Main St. to Times Sq (southbound operationally, westbound geographically) from about 6:30 AM to 12 Noon. Leaving Times Square is from about 1 PM to 10 PM. And it's one of the best elevated express routes, especially on the straighaway from Woodside to Junction Blvd., and from Junction to Shea when it uses the upper level tracks much like the old 3rd and 9th Ave. Manhattan els with their "hump" stations.
The Flushing Express still is a great ride, yes, but there was nothing like the Super Express. While in high school in the 1950s, I'd go out of my way to ride it, generally eastbound. After switching to the express track past Queens Plaza, the motorman (not train operator in those days) would put the throttle to the post and hold it there until reaching the grade time signal just after 52nd Street on the approach to 61st Street/Woodside. After going through 61st, and not too slowly either, he'd again put it to the post until just before the Junction Boulevard, coast through that station at speed, returning the controller to the post until reaching the top of the hill on the tracks over the 111th Street Station, and then adhering to the grade timer into Willets Point. Going around the curve from Queens Boulevard into Roosevelt Avenue at full speed with a consist of R12s, 14s and 15s is a New York thrill second only to the Cyclone...... Those cars whipped around that curve. Think of those classes of cars as "shorty" R10s and you get the picture as to the speed they were capable of. Although over 4 decades have past since experiencing that operation, it's something no subway fan could ever forget.
Nice story Joe. Wow, those timers after bypassing 52 St and before Willets Point had those timers there forever. Too bad there will never be a super express on the 7 nowadays[well, you never know].
Well I doubt the "Junctioners" would stand for it!
Easy on the boy.
Like YOU've never asked a researchable question?
Ah Greenberger, while he SHOULD have done some research, he asked his question here, his Q was not a waste of time [maybe he's not familiar with peak express services] & its been answered already.
I think that type of response is the kind that alienate people
We are not all MTA workers, more then likely we are just your
average every day shmo, who happens to be into the NYC subways.
Lighten up!
And good question, how many times can we read about the R142 sighting or fantasy subway stops (lions)
Step in & watch the doors!
I apologize if I alienated anyone. I was just a little surprised that a long-time poster here would ask a very basic question that could have been answered by a quick glance at the map or even a Google search. He could have found the information he wanted in less time than it took to post a message here.
Hey, I'm just a jamoche myself. But I understand your feelings. I mean, this Subtalk is the uber transit SIG. It's a fast moving express train. All riders will tend to get annoyed when the train is diverted to the local track....
It's a 2-way track. The express heads toward Manhattan in the AM rush hour when they switch toward Queens-bound in the PM rush hour. Weekdays, of course.
No, it runs in the peak direction, just like the Pelham express, Concourse express and the Bronx thru express[when it returns]. The structures have 3 tracks with the middle being bi-directional.
Flushing express:
6am-12:15pm toward Manhattan
12:45pm-about 10pm toward Flushing
First express train leaves Main St at 6:41 AM, not 6 AM
First express outbound train leaves TS at 12:24, last one at 10:07 PM
Oops, wrong time for the AM, I didn't mean to put that :-p. The first outbound train to Flushing leaves at 12:24pm??? I though it left a little later than that.
It arrives at QBP at around 12:40 PM, around the time you mentioned that PM express service starts. Lately the Flushing Inerlocking signal replacement project has seen the middle track taken out of service from 10 AM to 3 PM weekdays so there is no express service (both ways) during these times.
There is no 5 "Bx Thru" peak express. The Bronx thru express runs towards Manhattan during morning rush hour. Towards Dyre/Nereid Aves during the evening rush hour. During the Middays all 5 trains are local in both directions.
Da Beastmaster
I know it doesn't run during the middays. Ok just disregard the word 'peak' and its alright 8-).
Does anybody remember that idea of building a tunnel from Prospect Park Station west somehow to connect with the F Train? I remember reading about it, must have been 12 to 15 years ago. But I've never seen any further reference to it.
It was in the papers for a few weeks, then, zilch. I'm not sure what the routing would have beeen. Maybe the express trains would connect over to the F line and the locals would continue to 7th Ave. and west.
It was proposed by Assemblyman Daniel Feldman ca. 1982. The idea never went anywhere. The last idea studied was a connection between DeKalb Avenue and the Rutgers Street Tunnel. It would accomplish much the same thing as the "Feldman tunnel," but probably at a lower cost with less disruption since the two subway lines are close to each other near the Manhattan Bridge.
David
It would accomplish much the same thing as the "Feldman tunnel," but probably at a lower cost with less disruption since the two subway lines are close to each other near the Manhattan Bridge.
Not as close as you think. The Culver line ducks under the Manhattan bridge tracks at a point where it's already elevated. Some length of tunnel will be necessary to connect Rutgers to the Flatbush Ave corridor. Not that that's even worthwhile to begin with.
I know the two facilities are not at the same level. It's still shorter than cutting a swath through Prospect Park.
David
Fewer buildings in the park, though.
Agreed. But both options suck. Rutgers cannot handle B, D & F trains at worthwhile headways.
Right now the Rutgers Street Tunnel (F) is not operating at capacity, but traffic levels along the Culver Line/Smith Street Line don't warrant running more F service. Meanwhile, lines feeding DeKalb Avenue are not running at capacity, but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan. The DeKalb/Rutgers connection, while not perfect, allows for two things:
1. Room for additional trains in the event of full Manhattan Bridge service, or
2. A fallback position in the event all or part of the Manhattan Bridge becomes unusable (a possibility in spite of the reconstruction project that should end soon)
David
"but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan."
Just to be picky, there is plenty of room for additional trains to get into Manhattan, through the dreaded Montague Tunnel. (I realize, no one would ride them if they were added.)
I should have said that there is room for precious few additional trains on the Manhattan Bridge and in the Montague Street Tunnel with half the Manhattan Bridge out.
David
Right now only 24 TPH run through Montague St during rush hours, and 27 over the bridge. There is room in the tunnel for more service to be included.
N/R service could be increased by 1 TPH each without difficulty.
...which is why I at least once used the term "precious few". I am well aware that neither the bridge nor the tunnel currently has 30 trains per hour (as I am well aware that nominal signal capacity is 40 trains per hour, not that that's achievable given everything that's been done to the signals since their albeit recent installation).
David
Right now the Rutgers Street Tunnel (F) is not operating at capacity, but traffic levels along the Culver Line/Smith Street Line don't warrant running more F service.
Once the V is extended to Church Ave, that excess capacity will be filled.
Meanwhile, lines feeding DeKalb Avenue are not running at capacity, but (at least with half the Manhattan Bridge out) there is no way for more than a precious few additional trains to get into Manhattan.
A fully operational bridge will create more capacity than is necessary to fulfill current service requirements. This will negate any need for a costly Flatbush/Rutgers connection.
The DeKalb/Rutgers connection, while not perfect, allows for two things:
1. Room for additional trains in the event of full Manhattan Bridge service, or
Totally unnecessary.
2. A fallback position in the event all or part of the Manhattan Bridge becomes unusable (a possibility in spite of the reconstruction project that should end soon)
A totally unrealistic possibility. The rehab job will allow full service to resume. This is not wishfull thinking. It's fact.
Even the current setup (half a bridge) provides enough capacity for the southern division of the BMT to get the minimum amount of adequate service.
The IND line from Bergen to Church really needs 2 Manhattan-bound lines so that those express tracks can be used. The extra capacity on Rutgers St. should be reserved for resolving that problem only.
Frankly, I've never been a big fan of either proposal (Feldman's or NYC Transit's), pretty much for the reasons David Greenberger articulated (although I'm not too confident that the V will be extended to Church Avenue any time soon given NYCT's budget crunch). However, if pressed to pick one of the two, I'd go for DeKalb/Rutgers due to cost considerations and the ability to decide which among several routes to send via Rutgers Street, rather than just having the Brighton be able to go there.
David
Me? What reasons did I articulate? This is my first post in this thread.
One possible advantage to a Prospect Park connector is that, if it can be connected to the BMT south of the Prospect Park station, the local-express merge there could be eliminated by sending all locals or all expresses across the park to the IND. (There still is a merge with the F north of Bergen, but any plan of this sort has to have a merge with the F somewhere.) But I'm sure the price tag would be astronomical.
Sorry...meant "Chris R27-30".
David
Yes, I can see how you can get our names confused. (smirk)
My brother's name is David. My grandparents always mixed us up. I'm used to responding to the name "David". LOL
The IND line from Bergen to Church really needs 2 Manhattan-bound lines so that those express tracks can be used.
Just because express tracks are there it doesn't mean they have to be used.
Just because express tracks are there it doesn't mean they have to be used.
True, but these tracks are useful.
Oh, I don't know about that James. My Sea Beach has an express track and it is sometimes used-------BY THE WEST END OR SOME OTHER LINE- but never the Sea Beach. Of course, as much as I like the West End, you know what I think of that arrangement.
Ah, work it out anyway you can. The Brighton and the Culver, tweedle dum and tweedle dee. They deserve each other.
Ah yes, at least they have better viewS of the neighborhoods they transverse in, unlike your Slum-Beach which is an eyesore to look a the ugly SBRW Freight line, and NO express service AT ALL since 1968.
May I suggest to you that I think you need more bran in your diet===if you catch my drift, However, congratulations are in order for your finally leaving the Kool Head toilet you were in. Good to see the light of day again, huh?
Are you trying to tell me that my head is in a place where the sun doesn't shine? Very funny, we should have an impartial poll RIGHT NOW, as to which subtalker likes better; your Sea Beach or my Brighton Line (sorry, those who live at or near these lines are not eligible.)
Hey, I don't live anywhere near either of them, and could care less about either of them, THEY are NOT subways. They are outside and I like trains that run underground.
Peace,
ANDEE
There Kool-D, Andee has settled the argument between us once and for all, though I kind of like a subway that goes both above and below ground. Variety I guess. And, yes, I like open cuts, too.
No Kool-D, you would win that one. There are more Brighton fans on Subtalk than Sea Beach ones. I will concede that. Remember, though, we Sea Beachers think that quality is more important than quantity. The Sea Beach boys on this site are a quality pack, pure and simple.
But you cannot hear quality Russian music or buy quality batteries on the Sea Beach Line. The quality of my stations are much better too, by end of 2005, ALL stations on the Brighton lines, with the exception on 7th Ave/Park Slope, will be fully renovated, how does your Sea Beach stack up in quality on this?
We were talking about quality of people and not of stations. Your line has been treated with kid gloves while mine has been totally neglected. There can be no argument on that and that is why I have been in a lather the past few years.
But how do stations get renovated, let alone built? PEOPLE, QUALITY OF PEOPLE AND ITS' WORK. Fred, can you prove me wrong that something else besides people can renovate stations, besides the tools and equipment they use?
If the right people have a will-to-do then it can be done. For whatever reason the TA has decided the Sea Beach isn't worth their time. Maybe they don't have the ridership that the Brighton has but that's no reason to treat it like a disgraced relative. FYI, Sea Beach fanatics are very rabid about their line and always have been and we are not pleased that all we see when we ride our train is filth, peeling paint, and a rundown condition that reminds me of a worn torn city.
I wish that they would clean up the Sea Beach Line. It is a DISGRACE!!
#3 West End Jeff
What also happened that a lot of park advocates screamed, because it meant building another tunnel under Prospect Park. It probably would have also meant knocking down a bunch of buildings by the Brighton line.
Who even came up with this bizarre idea anyway? It sounds almost as far fetched as sending the 4th Avenue Local over the Verrazano to Staten Island. I heard that one proposed here a year or so ago. Maybe I could come up with a gem of my own for improved transit, and, yes, it would include my Sea Beach, the signature line of the NY Subway even if most of you and the TA doesn't know it anymore.
I didn't--that's for sure. A former NYS Assembly Member did.
Yeah, I believe that same study proposed putting the Canarsie "L" line in the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch cut(nearly abandoned at that time).
I had read somewhere it the tunnel would be from Prospect Park on the D/Q and the express track after 7th Avenue on the F.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/04/1044122365256.html
also pictures at
http://www.theage.com.au/photogallery/2003/02/04/1044122330125.html
The runaway was the Comeng EMU in the pictures. The stationary train was a loco hauled commuter. the Loco is a V Line N Class EMD Co Co hood with a cab at each end. It came off better than the EMU!!
According to NY1, http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
A piece of New York City subway history can now be yours to keep. In the following report, NY1 Transit Reporter Bobby Cuza tells us how those old "Redbird" trains, which are being phased out, can live on.
What are known as the “Redbirds” - the city's oldest working subway cars - have been around since the 1964 World's Fair. But you won't be seeing them much longer, unless you're a deep-sea diver.
Soon, the last of the Redbirds will retire under the sea, where their new passengers are of the aquatic variety. Transit officials began an artificial reef program a year and a half ago, and nearly 900 Redbird cars have been sunk off the coasts of Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia and Virginia.
Now, with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority facing a major budget crisis, they've come up with another way to squeeze some use out of the old trains: selling off the parts as souvenirs.
“We’ve gotten a lot of inquiries from people who are transit buffs, and just passengers and people who've ridden these trains for years,” said Michael Zacchea of NYC Transit Asset Recovery. “Reading in the papers, and knowing that they're going to be retired, [they] want to get a little piece of history.”
Horns, stanchion poles, controller's handles, and even those train number and destination signs can be yours, for a price. Those old metal handholds which are no longer made? $15, shipping and handling not included.
“It's something that would be really cool to have - a sign, or you know, a pole or something from the train,” said one straphanger. “It brings back memories of what they were like.”
As they're taken out of service, the trains are brought to the 207th Street rail yard, where they're stripped of any parts that'll float or degrade. The shells are then washed, stacked on a barge, and shipped off to their watery graves.
So, would straphangers really pay for an old Redbird souvenir?
“Nah, I wouldn't waste my money. But somebody might,” said one commuter.
“I would buy it, and then maybe hold onto it and see what type of value it has a little later on,” said another straphanger.
The most expensive item on the list - the rolling destination sign - goes for $300. But don't expect this program to help avert a fare hike.
“We don't think we're going to close the budget gap with the sales from these materials, but we think it is revenue that would have otherwise been unrealized,” said Zacchea.
The collectibles are on sale now on the MTA web site, located at www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
And at least for the next several months, you might still catch a glimpse of the Redbirds in action on the numbered lines, like the No. 7 train to Queens. The last batch of about 400 cars will be taken out of service this summer.
- Bobby Cuza
"The last batch of about 400 cars will be taken out of service this summer"........?
....................are there 400 cars to replace them .........?...
.................!!!!
By the time the cars are retired, their replacements will have been delivered, tested, and accepted for service.
David
HAHA...stop making sense...it means nothing to BIG Sal...
Peace,
ANDEE
The scuttlebutt on the December fantrip is that several sets of R33's and R36's will be cherry-picked and not sunk since there will not be enough equipment to run the service comfortably.
That's just what it is...scuttlebutt. Things can always change (at least until the time the last cars go kersploosh), but at last check enough cars had been purchased (1,550) to cover the demise of all 1,401 "Redbirds" and then some.
David
NO!!!!!!!!!! You'll learn to run really fast when the Scuds drop and save a token. 239th yard is Redbird Free so far. Fourteen months on the job and today I came home clean because I DID software downloads. The next pick is coming about and i pray that the Lord will keep my crew together. Once East 180th loses Redbirds, #7 will be the last. CI Peter
I guess after the summer, we will be referring to silverbirds... =(
American Airlines is short on cash, and for many years they've called their planes Silverbirds. Their lawyers might see your wit as a potential source of income!
of course NY1 got the years wrong redbirds came about in the late 1950's and the Flushing Redbirds made their appreance in 1964
"the Flushing Redbirds made their appreance in 1964"
A little tidbit of info to impress your friends at a party:
The very first Flushing cars arrived in October of 1963 and they were all single units (R-33S)
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice to see TA come to it's senses... or is this an illusion?
Oh, sure it won't avert a fare hike... look how well TA
counts it's own money..... they don't seem to get the
zeroes right!
I saw that MTA web site Redbird "parts" sale. A couple of things caught my eye.
1) Storm doors without handles. Are they missing from all storm doors for sale ? If so, why bother to buy the door without the locking handle ?
2) Controller "handle". A controller handle on a stick ? Why not sell the entire controller. That's like selling a car without the engine and tranny !
3) Exp/Local glass signs. While the glass Exp signs are red and glass local signs are green, I've seen a GREEN Exp sign. They do exist, but how many are out there is anybody's guess.
4) I'm disappointed no Redbird trucks are offered for sale, they would make great lawn ornaments !!
Bill "Newkirk"
5) Brake stand (pipeage can be chopped of course) ... but that, like a WHOLE controller stand comes with switches that can be connected up to a joystick port for computer train simulator use ... damned shame ...
Maybe TA should work out a deal with East 180th Street. We need parts to keep the last of the #5 Redbirds going. What is left should go to BERA. Crew thinks I have all this Redbird paraphenalia hanging from my apartment walls....the only thing I ever bring home is those blue leather gloves which I wear the next day in the yard. BigLots has em for 99 cents sans the NYCTA rubber stamp.
...And any parts NOT donated to BERA should be sent to the Heypaul R-9 Cab Restoration Fund...'a subway cab is a terrible thing to waste'...
Hey, he has a cab already, I wanted one of the cars to put in my backyard, then I could exploit the rest of you since I would hopefully be the only one. Unless you wanted to take a swim off the coast of Delaware, you would have to come to my place (provided any of you figured out where it is).
I have an old token here that looks like it's on steroids. They tell me that this was for the Aqueduct Special, a service which left the lower level of 42/8 Av., stopped at Jay Street, and on to the racetrack. I clearly recall the train, ,and the lower level of 42 St., but don't remember EVER seeing a turnstile that accepted this token. How about it?
That was O-N-E of it's uses. It also was an Express Bus token.
The stop in Brooklyn for the Aqueduct Specials was at Hoyt~Schermerhorn
with the fare control closest to the Bond Street exit on the mezzanine and
loading on the south platform segregated from the regular platform for Fulton Street
and Crosstown Services. There was also segregated fare control at 8th Ave/42nd Street to the lower level. Special Tokens for Special Turnstyles.
;-) Sparky
They used the escalator at the extreme southern end of the 42nd St. mezzanine for that purpose. It was clearly marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". I always thought it was abandoned even back in the late 60s because the escalator was fenced off on Saturday mornings. Sometimes I would walk over and check it out. Once in a while, they'd leave it running.
Right, it goes down to the single track lower level. Only way down there now is a small door under one of the stairs that goes up. That door looks like it goes to a closet, but it don't.
There is also a trap door in the platform.
Peace,
ANDEE
I used to stare down the southermost staircase to the lower level from the main s/b platform on Saturdays while waiting for an A train. A "42" sign was visible on one of the pillars. You could just climb over the chains and walk down the stairs. Never did that, though.
Hold onto that token!! There are not that many around.
Unlike all the other past tokens, some "genius" in the TA didn't think anyone would want to buy them as memorabilia so they sold them as scrap. The Transit Museum found out about it too late to get any to sell (that is why you never see any in the TM store).
I was able to get 1 from a former co-worker who was using them at the time the tokens were used for the Express Bus. If I had known that they were going to be destroyed I would have spent several hundred dollars to buy as many as I could. I saw one on ebay but it never sold because the seller wanted too much $$$. It has not been offered since.
"Unlike all the other past tokens, some "genius" in the TA didn't think anyone would want to buy them as memorabilia so they sold them as scrap. The Transit Museum found out about it too late to get any to sell (that is why you never see any in the TM store)."
Your story is identical to the "Special Fare" tokens that met the same fate. A "Special Fare" token is your garden variety "Y" token, but the "Y" isn't cut out. The metal is SILVER in color and on the reverse side is says "Special Fare".
This token was minted to use on the JFK Express and never used. Paper tickets were used instead. I have one of these tokens I bought at a coin show ten years ago, sorry, not parting with it.
I heard of the "sold for scrap" story a month after the TA disposed of them. I though to myself, where are the brains in this organization? Those Special Fare and large Aqueduct Special tokens would have sold great and brought in more money than selling them for scrap. Sheessh !
From the Atwood-Coffee Fifth edition catalogue of transportation tokens.
(Aqueduct Special/Express Bus token)
Cat# NY - 630AP 28mm brass Y-stencil cut Cat. value $ 4.00
(Special Fare token)
Cat# NY - 630AX 23mm white metal solid Cat. value $ 6.00
These catalogue values may have to be upgraded since thousands of these tokens were sold for scrap and what remains are scarce.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
The $4.00 that the Atwood-Coffee catolog has for the Aqueduct token is exactly what it cost for use on the Express Bus. It is definetly worth much more than that (and I have no intention of parting with mine).
With the amount of information that those catologs have (I have yet to be able to buy one - the ones offered on ebay go so fast) I doubt if they can ever keep up with all the different nuances.
I never knew that there was a "Special Fare" token minted. Yours is the first that I have ever heard of. I wonder if anyone else here has one or heard of it. In any event, it gives me something to keep an eye out for. Who knows there may be a few more out there somewhere.
I agree with you, had the TM been able to get ahold of them they would have been a best seller. I remember when they had a bunch of Bulls-eye Archer Av tokens kept on the side at the GCT store (that was my idea) for anyone who was looking for them specifically, those sold out as fast as they could find them in each new batch they were given to sell.
Thanks for the info update.
Allan
Allen said: "With the amount of information that those catologs have (I have yet to be able to buy one - the ones offered on ebay go so fast) I doubt if they can ever keep up with all the different nuances."
You have to join the association to get a AVA catalog. Membership includes a monthly newsletter "The Farebox".
It's an exclusive club, so you have to be recomended < g >
e-mail me privately if interested. I also belong to TAMS, but they're into mostly "good for" coins, i.e. Romie's Place - Good For 25 Cents
I'm on a westbound NH local being held at Harrison for 15 minutes minimum. Whole NEC down to one track waiting for police. Does someone have a source on this?
I JUST got off the phone with A 8AV FULTON EXP who works at GCT. He just told me MNRR had their first "12-9" of the year. He explained that they must have really wanted to die since that's the fastest point on the line. Such a shame.
Having to sit and think makes you ... well, sit and think. I wouldn't want to be the coroner or the family up at the next station. And whoever the train operator was, that's just the last person on the face of the earth I'd want to be right now.
Tough all around. Condolences to all involved.
I had a similar occurrence last week here in England - 2.5 hour delay on the way home last Wednesday evening due to a fatality on the line ahead of us and police in occupation of the track. The driver of our train (clearly long-serving) was on the platform chatting to some of the passengers, and revealed that he had had this distressing experience three times in his career. he was clearly concerned for his colleague on the train ahead of ours which had actually struck the person (in the dark, in open countryside).
Didn't mean entire northeast corridor lengthwise, obviously; crosswise shut down except westbd local since c 2130, eastbd local cleared c 2245.
Oddly today (tues) I could find no coverage of the story anywhere.
I think I passed there shortly after removal of the train and the deceased (around 11). I think they had just opened up the NY bound track. There was still some official looking people standing on the NY bound platform.
Also, I missed my connection to the New Canaan by 6 minutes. I guess it doesn't wait around for its designated feeder train, it just leaves on schedule.
The previous New Canaan had been canceled at Stamford (if that was the 9:00). They took them up on buses. They were in meltdown mode last night.
yea from Grand Central point of View, all MNRR employees who was headed in from the NH line was stranded. some of my 11pm-7am co workers didnt show till 12midnight. the 1040 arriving train from stamford arrived 1145! also, the 940 stamford local was cancelled! thats something i have never seen the omega board say
Yeah, that was my 1040. I'm glad I didn't run for the 940. MNRR has a superb record (subjectively speaking); on time when things go well, good communications when they have to hold you up. They're thoughtful and sincere and open.
hi, just joined the club..this is a test..will f/u with my backround/interests/views....pete
welcome brah... but first things first, this ain't no club...
we iz family down in here... some of us are in NY, some in
PA, some in UK... some of us threaten to leave (but never do!)...
some of us go by real names, some by entire transit systems, and
some peculiar chaps go by the names of curved subway stations..
you are given a killfile feature, which bar-none is truly the best
thing since sliced donut holes.. oh, and please.... be careful
whom you say "f/u" to.
f/u..as in follow-up...and thanx for breakin me in.
might as well make my debut..am at work as of this writing..wmployed by the local utility in the emerg control center..am 52 yrs old..live in da bronx but work in westchester...i am a train/navy/antique car buff in no particular order..own a 55 pontiac convert and 72 monte carlo .currently involved in preserving a decommed aircraft carrier as a museum somewhere where we can generate interest & funds..and always was intriqued by the ny subway system as well as railroads in general...took the #6 for years going to school in the bronx and college in manhatten..remember the bad old days of deferred maint and graffitti but yearn for the old equipment that i was accustomed to (especially the 'birds)..i'll be a rather passive member of this 'family'..probably will only speak out when i have something really earthshaking to say or report. been reading these posts for a while i have observed many knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative..will keep in touch.
Welcome to the SubTalk 'family'.
With your interest in the Navy and in trains, I suspect you'll appreciate these Webshots photos of a chartered Earle Naval Weapons Station train on land and on the pier.
Bob
Larry Talbot (aka wolfman) said that he:
"probably will only speak out when i have something really earthshaking to say or report. been reading these posts for a while i have observed many knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative"
Although he didn't mention me by name as one of the knowledgeable people that keep this board interesting and informative, I know he had me in mind and wanted to thank him for recognizing my inestimable contribution to this board.
And it really isn't necessary to have something earthshaking to report, as most of the posts here attest.
goes without saying..you are a definitive factor in educating yours truly in the fine points/idiosyncrosis (spelling?) of the nyc transit system...many thanx past and future...btw..my name is pete.
Welcome to Subtalk wolfman. Enjoy your time here at Subtalk, always something to talk about here, very interesting topics, etc.
Here's an idea to relive crowding on the Meadowbrook and Wantagh Parkways during the summer. How about extending the LIRR to the barrier islands on Long Island?
The idea I have is to have a two track spur off the Babylon Branch just past the Freeport Station and the Meadowbrook Pkwy. The spur would parallel the parkway to Jones Beach via a causeway, then run right near the beaches to Robert Moses State Park. Stations would be placed at Jones Beach, Captree State Park, and RMSP.
Is this project possible and a good idea?
Not enough year round business. Unlike Coney and Rockaway, nobody lives near those beaches. I hate to say it, but the beaches are best served by buses. And there is a good enough business for that. Hell, the S47 route from Babylon rail to Robert Moses Beach is the only bus that runs on Sundays and Holidays in Suffolk County.
You should check out the Long Beach, LI station.
Good point, but I only meant Jones Beach, not Long Beach. Oh well, seemed like a good idea.
it is easily possible to build, but when people goto the beach is when all trains run local rockville centre-babylon.
is there a big enough demand for a service from jones beach-freeport?
maybe a light rail shuttle between the two. not main line direct service.
one other aspect-there are layup tracks just west of the meadowbrook, which whould need some engineering to keep
I think the current bus service from the train would be sufficient. Besides, the people that do live there would never allow a train to run there. Bad enough RM built the roads there, and he didn't get to extend east from RM state park like he wanted.
Consider, there is a wilderness area less than 50 miles from Manhattan that can be reached by public transport (train, ferry).
I don't think there would be enough room to run along Ocean Parkway between Jones & Captree.
By the way, I sense Robert Moses is turning over in his grave after reading your post!!
By the way, I sense Robert Moses is turning over in his grave after reading your post!!
Ka-THUMP Ka-THUMP Ka-THUMP!
Read on NY1.com that the MTA is auctioning off parts from retired Redbirds. This is great....if you have the cash! Rollsigns do cost as much as 300 bucks.
They mention that "pressure from transit buffs" was a factor. Anyone here instrumental in this? :-)
ME??? #5 lead tech??? A dickweed accused me of having a storehouse of stuff. Rollsign busted...place car in the middle. Glass cracked...silicon or duct tape. AC freon leaking..pump down and shut off. We can't get the stuff to fix em anymore. What my crew on the #5 can do is provide a passenger and system safe trainset. I don't even have a notebook for sale....it's all in my head. Subway lightbulbs are a dim brown...I use compact fls. They have straps and poles and seats...the stuff that won't rust away in the ocean. I can scoop up black steel dust/brake shoe residue/grease for medicinal purposes. Anyone for worn composite brake shoes??? How about it TA for some real parts for Branford??? CI Peter
Parts? Let them send a whole car over!
-Stef
Stef, if there was any way I could get you five married pairs with scratchittied windows, bad door rubbers, leaking valves, worn brake shoes, shot brake cylinders, burned group boxes, 18 X 4 wheels, dead convertors, collapsed storm doors, defective J14s, empty refrigerant tanks and leaking compressor seals, blown head D4s, burned out portions..............I would without hesitation. Two years ago I was servicing the most advanced pinball machines, video games and simulators available in the amusement industry. Never knew how Lionel trains worked. Miss those vendors in the subway you put a penny into and got Chiclets from. Now it's 'In the Hole speak English BIE.' The Lord does work in mysterious ways and I stopped asking why. Unca Steve is very wise and I've learned an awful lot from him. CI Peter
I think they are talking about that link to the MTA site that was posted here yesterday.
---Brian
We've GOTTA chip in and get Salaam one of those storm doors, hopefully one with the handle assembly still on it. :)
LOL!
Give him the door......I need the handle
No handle for you until someone coughs up a pair of stands with all the fixin's, mustard and kraut. Hold the onions and the D4 on a half shell. :)
Yeah, I think heypaul is itching for some spare parts for his cab...
Even the deadman stick might be auctioned off too...
Even better idea, sell the full cab (brakes, deadman, etc...) as one so we can definitely have a real simulator...
*BIG* problem in what they're selling ... you need the WHOLE cabinet to get the necessary switches, detents and spring. I looked at that (and was hoping to get a brakestand as well since the electric brake switch cam and contacts would have made for a complete BVE or MSTS starting ground. But just the lid with the handle (without the whole cabinet) and no brake stand cabinet does make it a bit unattractive and very much *NOT* Heypaul quality ...
Wonder if MTA would be willing to sell the pair of cabinets for say $500? I'd pay up to a GRAND for the pair ... but no sale on just the "lid" of one stand. Nope ... nice try. I'm sure folks who don't know what it is will buy what's available though.
Quite true, Selly. The MTA's in the hole, you'd think they'd milk this entire opportunity.
I honestly don't think it occurred to them that there'd be much of an interest in the whole assemblies for use with train simulators. Chances are the folks who handle this looked at the controller lid and thought that was pretty much the whole thing. I've even seen certified subway foamers who had a pair of stands BACKWARDS in their cab in the assumption that things were correct. No names, please ...
But one has to admit, my particular request is unique. Probably no more than five other people even likely to want to have both stands COMPLETE for use with a computer train simulator. But man, sure would love to have a pair of complete cabinets with all the fixin's, though I'd REALLY like to have a pair removed from an R9 or R10 ... many more possibilities for wiring those up to a joystick port though the 33/36 stands are close enough.
Hell, I'd make the trip to remove them myself if that is considered too much of a pain in the butt for a CI or car maintainer to rip out. No asbestos in those either as far as I know ...
You guyz want my arms and legs too?
Nah, just your top charger and your cutting key. :)
The story's from Reuters on the proposed cuts to long-distance service in the Bush budget released today.
Nothing really that surprising, based on the debate that went on a year ago during the Amtrak funding crisis. And I really don't see what's so wrong about telling states along routes that are losing $250-$350 per passenger that if they want to keep their long distance trains, they should have to pony up some cash on their own. The current system penalizes states like New York and New Jersey, where Amtrak routes are far closer to the break-even point, to fund lines through areas that are far lest profitable, but who have Senators and Congressmen with enough clout to keep the funds flowing for those routes.
Everybody knows about the 2/5 GO this weekend, but there is another big GO in the wings. The #3 train will run New Lots to 137St-Bway. Things will be pretty interesting this weekend on the Upper West Side/Harlem area.
Da Beastmaster
Could we expect shuttle buses running from 135 St to 148 St replacing 3 service for the weekend. That's going to be interesting, only 2's will be serving the Lenox portion up to 135.
Everybody knows about the 2/5 GO this weekend, but there is another big GO in the wings. The #3 train will run from New Lots to 137St-Bway. Things will be pretty interesting this weekend on the Upper West Side/Harlem area.
Da Beastmaster
Beastmaster in the house.
What is the 3 GO for?
-Stef
Yes, I saw the posting. I assume it will run local north of 96th. What about south of 96th?
IDK since I havent seen the actual GO sheets. The last time the 3 was sent up Bway, NB trains were local from 72St on up. SB trains crossed at 96St.
Da Beastmaster
Randy Kennedy explains why it takes so long to fix escalators in this week's Tunnel Vision column.
Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex.
The article does suggest several circumstances that apply to subway escalators that would apply less to other escalators:
- Deliberate vandalism
- Less space underneath makes it harder to fix them when they break
- More usage, both total usage per day and maximum load at any given time
When I dissed Trainor in a previous post, I forgot about the 24-hour usage. That's a nasty environment.
The article does suggest several circumstances that apply to subway escalators that would apply less to other escalators:
- Deliberate vandalism
- Less space underneath makes it harder to fix them when they break
- More usage, both total usage per day and maximum load at any given time.
The first and third reasons could account for a higher failure rate on subway escalators vs., for example, those in shopping malls, but they wouldn't justify the absurdly long time it takes to make repairs. The lack of workspace and other physical constraints might make it somewhat more time-consuming to effect repairs, but I can't see these reasons accounting for the huge time difference that exists.
If the NYCT managers responsible for escalator maintenance and operations held similar jobs in the private sector, they wouldn't have those jobs for long. Poor performance simply wouldn't be tolerated. But because this is the subway, no one in authority cares.
"Poor performance simply wouldn't be tolerated. But because this is the subway, no one in authority cares."
You sure hit this matter on the bullseye, if you use a station in Manhattan, the escalators are fine, but if you are unlucy enough to be outside of Manhattan, good luck in hiking upstairs:
The culprits where NYCT is known for gross mismanagement are:
Escalators at Court St/BMT (still not fully installed)
Escalators AND elevators at 161 St/River Ave (only runs when there is a Yankee Game, other times one or both escalators are out. When it took a year and a half to replace the second escalator back in 1999 you had to hike it upstairs to the #4 platform, the other one never worked.)
Prospect Park/Brighton Line elevators (supposed to be operational last October, NOT!)
Entire Broadway Junction complex (The contractor working on this complex, is also responsible for the 14th St/8th Ave fiasco.)
2 Broadway (enough said!)
You sure hit this matter on the bullseye, if you use a station in Manhattan, the escalators are fine,
Really? You mean like the subject of the Times article? Or like West 4th? Delancey? 53/Lex? Times Square? There aren't many escalators in Manhattan to begin with, and the ones that are there hardly have a phenomenal success rate.
Entire Broadway Junction complex (The contractor working on this complex, is also responsible for the 14th St/8th Ave fiasco.)
Every single time I'm in this station, two escalators are running. I find that pretty amazing, and I'm surprised you bring it up here.
"Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex."
No, they are not "just as complex." And they are subjected to nothing even remotely close to the abuse and pounding that transit elevators get. And that's not even counting deliberate vandalism.
Show me your favorite Macy's escalator and its passengers. The escalators (and passengers) at 51-Lex, 53-Lex, Jamaica Center and 74th-Broadway would make your escalator look like a Sunday school picnic.
Where I wrote "transit elevators" I meant "transit escalators."
"Where I wrote "transit elevators" I meant "transit escalators."..."
You can might as well include transit elevators, as the elevator at Grand Central to the #7 line platform is STILL out of service. It has been out for over a month now, and NYCT is in clear violation of Federal ADA regulations.
BTW: Grand Central station is the closest ADA accessible station for tommorrow's "Pubic Hair-ing" at the Roosevelt Hotel-Madison Ave and East 45th st.
Agreed. This is not good.
A letter of complaint to MTA and your local elected officials would be in order.
Interesting column, but it does not really address why escalators in most non-subway locations can be fixed far more quickly even though they're just as complex.
No, they are not "just as complex." And they are subjected to nothing even remotely close to the abuse and pounding that transit elevators get. And that's not even counting deliberate vandalism.
It may be true that subway escalators take more of a beating that their counterparts in stores and malls and other places. As I noted in another posting, that could account for a higher breakdown rate among subway escalators. But it does not account for the absurdly long periods needed to make repairs.
"But it does not account for the absurdly long periods needed to make repairs. "
Granted. That is in part a function of bureaucratic inefficiency and also reflects the need for better contractor oversight.
If they kept the escalators running well, they'd be pressured to put more in. There are a lot a elderly and disabled people who are limited to buses because of the stairs. Instead, we don't ask for them because of the poor record. Still, if they had to keep them operating, they would. I know a few that are almost never down, like the pair going up to Grand Central from the Lex. Come to think of it, the ones to the Pan Am building seem to get repaired quickly too and they take a real pounding.
Paris retrofitted hundreds of stations with escalators. WMATA has them everywhere, both up and down. Yes, they have problems. Often only two of three work. But they have been subjected to 25 years of rain. I just can't believe that NYC Transit couldn't keep escalators running if they really wanted to. It would cost money, but it is a worthy investment, priceless to those the cannot travel without it.
The elderly and disabled deserve better access to NYC's transit system. I agree with you.
Well....nobody "deserves" anything. Best we can do is to create a society (out of chaos!) which can not only offer the pathways to acquiring the basic necessities of life but will also enable our "better nature" to tend to those facets of existence that make life enjoyable for the population.
Such as designing our infrastructures with some thought given to our older citizens. Which we all are or will be. But to me, that's it.
That's the only honest way to go about it. Not so we can feel noble.
Not because we "have to". Or because we "deserve it". We do it because we want it done for us.
Yeah those were supposed to be done last Fall I believe. It's a real PITA having to shlep to Lexington ave or through Bloomingdale's just to get to the N/R/W from 3rd avenue.
Perhaps if they hired prison gangs the work would get done quicker.:-0
It appears that the LIRR has taken a page from late 19th/early 20th century railroad technology by running unmotorized trailer cars in their consists.
On the 8:30 Penn Station train out of Far Rock this morning, an announcement was made before Jamaica that the rear three cars were not taking power from the third rail and that as a result, the train would be operating at a lower speed than usual to Penn Station.
Gee, I thought unmotorized trailers went out with Kaiser Wilhelm and the Model T Ford.
Welcome to the 21st century, MTA-style.
Would you rather they had detached the three cars and squeezed everybody into the remaining cars?
Would you rather they had detached the three cars and squeezed everybody into the remaining cars?
Can I indulge in a little fantasy?
What I'd really want is for the LIRR to make enormous reductions in its cost structure through massive downsizing of its managerial ranks and the replacement of its overpaid union employees with nonunion workers earning market-level (translation: far lower) wages, thereby allowing the LIRR to offer better service on modern equipment at lower fares while requiring lower or no taxpayer subsidies.
What are the chances of this actually happening? I suspect we'll sooner see the Sun rise in the west.
I agree. I think we'll see a station at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue before we see what you proposed.
;)
Maybe, but while you're dreaming about the "big things" lots of little good things that can happen, and sometimes do happen, escape your notice...
BTW, the union situation, good, bad or ugly, is hardly all LIRR's fault, and if they got rid of the unions, you've not demonstrated that the benefits youi're talking about would happen to the degree you claim..
Why should that be an option? I would rather experience one LIRR ride without some mechanical problem cropping up. Instead, I get a parade of maladies, from door lights that don't activate, to lights and heat/AC not working to power outages.
For the money I pay per month ($135, and going up soon) I'd like to have a decent ride.
Before I moved to Philly, I rode the LIRR on a regular basis. So did other people in Bayside that I knew.
You're kvetching (that's OK). You're entitled to a decent ride, but your post obviously exaggerates your maladies. You're making a mountain out of your own little molehill. What's more, most LIRR riders, according to Straphanger polls, LIRR and commuter council results, were reasonably happy with LIRR's service.
Not that the things you mention don't happen. But let's face it - as LIRR improves, you just find something else to moan about. :0)
He shoudl have ridden the LIRR in the 1960's.
In the winter, no heat at all in trains. Sometimes there'd even be a snow drift down the aisle of cars because some cluck left the end doors open in Speonk yard....
In the summer, no air conditioning in the air conditoned cars. There were only about 250 air conditioned cars in the whole fleet of about 1,250 cars total.
No lights in many diesel hauled cars in the winter because the batteries froze and the generator belt (a strap over the axle under the car) broke.
Toilets that hadn't been cleaned since the world war (the FIRST one...)
Broken windows. Oh, and windows stuck OPEN in the winter (yes, the windows DID open in those days).
No PA systems to announce stops, even if it was the wrong one. Lucky if the conductor came through and yelled out the next stop and could be heard above the chattering teeth in winter.
Frozen switches. Locomotives running out of fuel.
Yep, I have experienced it all. I lived to tell about it. But it was NOT an everyday occurence.
"In the winter, no heat at all in trains. Sometimes there'd even be a snow drift down the aisle of cars because some cluck left the end doors open in Speonk yard...."
They should have charged extra for the privilege of letting your kids have snowball fights on the train.
"In the summer, no air conditioning in the air conditoned cars. There were only about 250 air conditioned cars in the whole fleet of about 1,250 cars total."
Real men did not ride those A/C cars! Anybody on them must have been a real wimp.
"No lights in many diesel hauled cars in the winter because the batteries froze and the generator belt (a strap over the axle under the car) broke. "
Pshaw! Read by the light of your cigarette (an unfiltered Camel).
"Broken windows. Oh, and windows stuck OPEN in the winter (yes, the windows DID open in those days)."
Whassamater? You don't like the ventilation system? Picky, picky...
"Frozen switches. Locomotives running out of fuel."
Did the locomotive engineer organize the passengers to get out and push? It's great exercise. Make a real man out of ya (and you'll quit bitching about no a/c in the car).
Yes, the good old days...
Happy Subtalk :0)
Hehehehe....how true, especially the one about "real men didn't ride the a/c cars". I always loved getting a train of P54's behind one of the RS-3's. Open a few windows, sit in the first car, and enjoy the Alco sounds (smells, etc. too!!) And go deaf from those Nathan M-3 horns.
I remember one rather innovative conductor, one trip on the 3:56 out of Hunterspoint to Patchogue, the first car had no lights. He went up and had the engineer turn on the rear headlight on the RS-3. PLENTY of light thereafter.....
Then there was a time on that train we were hauling ass down the Central Branch, and there's a slight rise up and over the Southern State Parkway as well as a bend. Hit the rise, then the drop, and bend, and the engineer dumped the air!! Seven car train in the summer, all the windows opened, it looked like a chicken coop with all the hens' heads suddenly stuck out to see what happened. A lumber yard was on fire, the FD had their hoses across the tracks -- OVER the rails -- and the train ground to a stop after all seven cars sliced the hoses (damn P54 brakes were never worth a shit...made more vibration than stop). Conductor stuck his head of out the front vestibule and yelled to the engineer "Let's get the hell out of here before the FD sends us a bill!" Off we went.
I'll always remember MY days of commuting on the LIRR in the 1960's. Sure there were days nothing went right, but believe me, the LIRR was always good for a laugh. They always got us where we were going.
Sounds like you had a real adventure there...
I'll always remember MY days of commuting on the LIRR in the 1960's. Sure there were days nothing went right, but believe me, the LIRR was always good for a laugh. They always got us where we were going.
Well the LIRR is good for a few laughs today, except they are laughs in the sense that one laughs at dead baby* or Space Shuttle** jokes. Not quite the same humor as in the 1960's.
* = What's the difference between a truckload of dead babies and a truckload of bowling balls? You can't unload a truckload of bowling balls with a pitch fork.
** = What does NASA stand for? Need Another Seven Astronauts.
Locomotives running out of fuel.
I hadn't heard that about the LIRR, but I have heard a similar story of such an occurrence on the Jersey Central. Towards the end, just before Conrail, a JC commuter train ran out of fuel one afternoon. A local fuel dealer brought enough fuel to the train for it to complete its run; the passengers chipped in to pay the bill, since the fuel dealer would not bill the JC or even accept a check from the Jersey Central for fear it would bounce. (This story courtesy one of the passengers on that train, Don Cariss, now treasurer of the North Raleigh Model RR Club, Raleigh, North Carolina.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The time I was on the LIRR and the loco ran out of fuel, it was an RS-3 heading into Jamaica, just west of B Tower. As it was the morning rush hour and no CTC in those days, the following Ronkonkoma train (with my next door neighbor as engineer -- he told me what REALLY happened, our crew just said "engine failure") pushed us to Hicksville where another loco met us after rushing out from Jamaica.
If things are that bad on the LIRR, try driving to work. Then you'll have a nice warm car, nobody to stink and sit next to you, no loss of third rail power.....
Oh, could you do it for $135 or less?
well the power outages are LIPA's fault, as LIRR gets its power through LIPA lines (in the Nassau-Suffolk region). I lost power for 90 minutes tonight.
I use to love the cattle line out to Deer Park esp. in the winter. boy the fun we use to have waiting at Republic for the west bound to pass to clear the single track that was running an hour late. And yes no lights, heat and it was every man for him self if you did not find a bar car to kill the time. this was back in the early 1970's. but hay it was still and adventure
john
One thing I like about the LIRR is bad brakes. Many times on the Mus and C3s the dynamics are out. Nothing like the smell of burning brake and squeels that will make your head pop.
unmotorized trailers
Isn't that redundant?
unmotorized trailers
Isn't that redundant?
Yes, and the whole thread is about motorized trailers.
But who wants to nitpick? :)
Yep, just like his constant bitching about LIRR. They aren't perfect, but things could be one helluva lot worse.
Not really. The MP-54s came in motor (with cab), trailer (without cab), motor trailer (motors, etc, no cab), and trailer cabs (cab, no motors). Trailer doesn't inherently mean no motors, and doesn't always mean just a dead car - many European EMUs split the traction gear between cars for better weight distribution, so you get stuff like a cab, motor, transformer, pantograph, unpowered, motor, cab arrangement.
I would call a car that has motors but no control position
a "blind motor". A sled with a control stand is a "control trailer"
Is car G a control trailer?
Yes
Give them credit that they made an announcement as to the train's problem.
Give them credit that they didn't drop the rear three cars and make everyone pack into what was left.
Give them credit they didn't just cancel the train and send it to be fixed right away.
In lieu of the LIRR, and since your origin is on the Far Rock Branch, why not take the A train from Mott Ave. instead? Even if you need to take the N31/32 to get there, it still will cost only $1.50 or less with a Metrocard, and the A service is more frequent than LIRR Far Rock trains. And I'm sure the A train never has stuck doors, propulsion problems, HVAC problems, and overcrowding. So, as The Duke said, "Take the A Train."
when there is a will there is a way. there was a time when one of the m1 units died at nostrand av. they actually coupled our train to the back of the disabled train and ran the whole train into flatbush ave terminal. the only problem was that my part of the train was sill in the tunnel and we had to walk forward to exit the train. this must have been oh i guess 1983, 1984. hay it works and your right they could have tied up the whole line making everyone late but instead they found an alternitive
I've done that a few times but I don't like the walk from the LIRR Far Rock terminal to the A train Mott Ave terminal. Its only three blocks or so but its a really seedy area of Far Rockaway and it can be a frightening walk even in the morning.
Walking along Mott Ave isn't too bad during the day. It is a major shopping area. But once you walk down Redfern Ave then walk fast, sure and hope no one follows.
Correct - that area is really run down these days, and not safe. But my point was, why not just take the N31/32 right to the Mott Ave. A train stop (free Metrocard transfer) and have a much cheaper and (for you) obviously much better trip than using an LIRR Far Rock branch train.
When my house catches on fire I don't have to run out and give the firefighters a token so that they will fight the fire. Why should I pay for the transportation that is a necessity of a functioning city?
"If you use it you should pay for it," is not a good argument. If only users should pay for a city service, then I should not have to pay for the school system since I have no kids going to school. Also, corporations reap a large benefit (employees get to work) from the existence of the suways and buses, but don't pay anything.
The MTA is trying to eliminate the token booth clerks by implementing the Metrocard machines. Why not get rid of the booths AND the machines and use the ex-clerks as station monitors to aid riders.
Nothing is for free. Everything is paid for by someone sometime in some way.
If government provides an everyday necessity, whether food, shelter or transportation, the money for its provision is going to have to come from someplace. To avoid the necessity to pay a fare of $1.50 (or less, with discounts) you would have to layer an additional $2.3+ BILLION dollars annually of new taxes to make up for the lost fares.
Who should pay for this? I know, "someone else."
The fire department analogy is an old one, but bogus. Fire is a catastophic, involuntary event. All taxpayers have agreed to provide the service for their mutual safety and that of their fellows. But after the fire is out, the consequences are on you, not the City. I pay $1,000+ a year for fire insurance, otherwise I get "free" fire service, and a multi-thousand dollar bill for reconstruction.
There are arguments in favor of free transit. Especially on buses in small, crowded cities, since they lose so much money anyway, and the demand is inelastic (lower cost does not equal more ridership). Sort of like public libraries.
In fact, a minimal level of food and housing (homeless shelters and soup kitchens) is also free. Demand is also inelastic -- you don't really want more than the minimum.
But with subways, like schools, you want better quality, and you don't want to separate the "soup kitchen" riders from the "restaurant" riders. So you split the responsibility between taxpayers and fee payers.
I think both Seattle and Denver (might be wrong on that last one) have ride free zones on bus routes in their CBDs. I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route. It would seem that you're halving the amount of revinue you can bring in that way, the person will pay to come in, but will sneak on at a free area and just ride home that way.
Portland, Oregon also has that, and both Portland and Seattle call it the "Fareless Square."
> I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a
> the free zone
The same way that any other transit agency (like NJ Transit) makes sure you pay for enough zones. The bus drivers seem to just know.
Two ways that it works
1. The Honor system (yes, I'm not joking)
2. Key places/times where they check who paid, often when crossing zones, especially if patterns of cheating emerge.
>>> I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route <<<
The same way they check on multi-zone fares. When someone enters in the free zone who will go beyond the zone he pays his fare and gets a "check" ticket from the driver. At the last stop in the free zone, the driver announces the end of the free zone and collects the tickets from his passengers. Any who do not have tickets are directed to the fare box or the door.
Tom
In Amsterdam, where they have the Honor system when boarding, at Waterloopen (where one enters the central city zone) all riders are checked. I did see lots of people getting off there rather quickly however, but the flea market there is very popular....
>>> In Amsterdam, where they have the Honor system when boarding, at Waterloopen (where one enters the central city zone) all riders are checked. <<<
What do you mean by the honor system? When I was last in Amsterdam many years ago they were using a POP system similar to the one now in use in Los Angeles, which is a far cry from an honor system.
Tom
I meant that at the time, you boarded and punched your own ticket then sat down. No one checked to make sure you did except at certain points where everyone was checked. I am no expert on Amsterdam here - I am just sharing my experience.
>>> I meant that at the time, you boarded and punched your own ticket then sat down <<<
What is the purpose of punching your ticket, and how is it done? Surely they do not provide ticket punchers for you? If the tickets are time sensitive, I can see having a time stamp validation at the station, but the traditional reason for punching a ticket is to indicate a conductor has seen it and it has been used. It is also extremely strange that they had certain fixed points where tickets were checked. Since those points could be avoided it would be an honor system. The POP system depends on random checks without passengers knowing in advance where they will be.
Tom
Yes, you can have a "passenger punching their own ticket" system. This system operates on many European transit systems. Buses, trams and station entrances have "validator" machines. You buy a ticket before boarding (from small mom-and-pop stores, from ticket booths or from ticket vending machines) - often multiride tickets giving a discount - then you stick them into the validator, which stamps the date and time on them. Transfer privileges have a time limit (say 2 hours). If it's a multiride ticket it has space for stamps for the number of rides you've bought. Then roving inspectors check tickets to make sure you've stamped them less than 2 hours ago. In Amsterdam you also have the option of paying a cash fare to the driver and receiving a ticket, but you pay a lot more that way.
My bus from the station to my office in Loughborough (UK) has a variant on this system. I buy a ten-journey ticket from the driver, giving me a 33% discount. He gives me a blank ticket (with a magnetic strip) which I insert into the validator, which actually prints the ticket. For the other nine rides I just stick it into the validator on boarding; it makes a noise which tells the driver I used a valid ticket (or a different noise if I didn't).
The following happened when I was on an Amsterdam tram once. Tram stops and various people get on, including a couple (man and woman). Doors close so that no-one else can get off. Couple produce ID showing that they are plain clothes ticket inspectors. They go round the tram checking tickets, fining on the spot those who haven't got a valid stamp on their ticket. Of course the plain clothes were necessary. If the inspectors were in uniform, the fare evaders would have seen them boarding and would have had time to jump off the tram before the doors closed.
The following happened when I was on an Amsterdam tram once.
Compare what happened when I was on an Athens tram. Ticket inspector (uniformed) gets on. The tram was packed, with no room to move. Ticket inspector gives up and gets off.
>>> Ticket inspector (uniformed) gets on. The tram was packed, with no room to move. Ticket inspector gives up and gets off. <<<
I used to ride for free on the narrow trams in Heidelberg from time to time when it was too crowded for the conductor to get through the car to collect fares.
Tom
"I used to ride for free on the narrow trams in Heidelberg from time to time when it was too crowded for the conductor to get through the car to collect fares"
They have conductors collecting fares on the Sheffield (UK) "supertram" system, having abandoned a vending-machine-only system because of vandalism/failure of the ticket machines. But I don't know if the trams ever get crowded enough in rush hours to prevent the conductor getting around to collect the fares.
I think in Seattle, you pay as you get off on outbound buses.
That's exactly how it works. If you get on an "inbound" bus you pay as you board. If you get off an "outbound" bus you pay as you exit. If you get on or off in the free fare zone, you don't pay at all. I don't remember what happens for a route that goes into, through, and then out of the free fare zone.
I do remember that some buses have multiple zones in the same direction. In that case, it seemed that you were trusted to pay the correct amount for how far you were going.
[I've always wondered how they keep passengers from getting on in a the free zone, and then riding to the end of the route.]
The Pittsburgh approach is rather simple: Pay as you EXIT the bus on trips from Downtown.
If someone is a taxpayer and a rider they have to pay twice.
No, they pay once in two installments. One ride DOES NOT cost $1.50, it's much more. If a subway ride actually costs $x.xx, you pay $x-1.50 in taxes for that ride, then your $1.50 when you enter the system.
How much of that do businesses pay. They benefit from a service that gets their employees to work
Businesses can't pay taxes because people own wealth, not pieces of paper. Not many people understand that all wealth ultimately ends up in the hands of a person, whether it goes thru the gov't first, from buying something, or anything else.
The people who run the business (stock holders, owners, whatever) do have money and they pay taxes that get their employees and themsleves to work.
What??? Then what is Bush talking about when he says that dividends should not be taxed because that money has already been taxed when the corporation pays tax on its profit?
By the way corporations are considered legal persons
I'm not familiar with law regarding corporations, so you must enlighten me. If that is the case, what are the social security numbers of GM and Proctor & Gamble? If GM and P&G are legal persons, then don't they have to file a 1040? A SSN is required to fill one out. If GM doesn't pay their taxes, who exactly gets arrested?
I'm not familiar with law regarding corporations, so you must enlighten me. If that is the case, what are the social security numbers of GM and Proctor & Gamble? If GM and P&G are legal persons, then don't they have to file a 1040? A SSN is required to fill one out. If GM doesn't pay their taxes, who exactly gets arrested?
Corporations have Federal Employer Identification Numbers instead of Social Security Numbers. And yes, they usually are required to file federal (and state) corporate income tax returns.
Corporations can and most do have taxpayers ID's they are just like SSN's. And they must due 1120's not 1040's
They also pay a special tax in the MTA region for the MTA's funding.
But the taxes that a corporation pays has to come from real people. Employees create the wealth, so the money comes from them. The law may recognize that company as a person, but realistially corporations aren't tangible things.
Whatever the case, I don't think there shouldn't be 100% subsidy, but there shouldn't be 100% user fee either. The system you all have now works, presumably. In Atlanta, MARTA raises funds partly (about 60%of total budget) from a 1% sales tax in the three jursdictions it runs in (Fulton and Dekalb Couties, and City of Atlanta). It is also required by law to raise 30% (or 35%, I can't remember) of operating revemue from fareboxes. The remaining 10% comes from the Feds. The State of Georgia contributes NOT ONE CENT to MARTA. That needs to change. Anyway, I think it was a good idea to make the riders pay for the certain %, it forces MARTA is encourage more ridership.
Rob,
I do agree with you that a certain % needs to come from the farebox. If for no other reason than if you don't pay anything for a service, you don't value it, nor recognize it cost money to run and you (the citizen and/or taxpayer) has have a stake in how it is run. If the public didn't pay anything for transit, people might start expecting 5 minute headways from 6AM to Midnight.
But on the subject of corporations paying taxes, I do agree in theory that corporations do not pay taxes, people do. Yes, the corporate taxes (if a corporation hasn't found a way to avoid them altogther) are passed along in the price of the goods and services. But if corporate taxes were eliminated, I truly doubt the prices would drop to refect this. You would hear about how the taxes were a very small part fo the price.
Bush doesn't even get it. A corperation is made up of people. Without people, a corporation can't exist. The profits generated by the "company" is really generated by the employees that work there. Let's say you own your own store. You gross $50,000, and your payroll is $40,000. You make a $10,000 profit. Your profit (imcome) gets taxed 10% and now you have $9000. Now, let's say you had an investor that gave you 50% of the money you needed to start your business. You owe your investor $4500. S/He gets their money and now they are taxed 10% of that since that is their income. That means $1450 in taxes were taken out in total, so 14.5% taxes that were taken out even though it's a 10% tax rate. That's where the concept of double taxation comes in. Now take that example and it's the same way with a billion dollar corporation with thousands of shareholders.
Remember this: there is no such thing as money that doesn't belong to a human being, it's impossible to have it any other way. Money is worthless if no one owns it.
Because Bush doesn't want the rich to pay taxes!
Maybe we should keep the fare as it is and do like it was when I was a kid living on Beach 100th Street in Rockaway Beach: Pay another fare when you leave.
I guess I'm just kidding here....
That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else.
"That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else."
Both PATCO and Washington Metrorail check your fare payment on exit. If you don't have enough money on your card, the WMATA faregate won't open to allow you to exit the station. Ditto for PATCO, if you, for example, bought a Philly-Camden fare card but tried to use it to exit at Haddonfield.
"That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else."
Both PATCO and Washington Metrorail check your fare payment on exit. If you don't have enough money on your card, the WMATA faregate won't open to allow you to exit the station. Ditto for PATCO, if you, for example, bought a Philly-Camden fare card but tried to use it to exit at Haddonfield.
Also, I believe the Braintree branch of MBTA Red Line charges a double fare to go there from downtown Boston.
MBTA Red Line charges a double fare because you only pay on the way out (or the way in, I can't remember which). You are still charged the same as you would be otherwise.
WMATA and PATCO don't check your fare on exit exactly, they do a distance based fare so they need to see where you started out and then deduct the proper fare. Another system that does this is London with their zones. You need to validate your card upon entry and then put it through the machine again when you exit.
"MBTA Red Line charges a double fare because you only pay on the way out (or the way in, I can't remember which). You are still charged the same as you would be otherwise. "
Not true. Boston to Braintree costs you a double fare. Boston to Ashmont does not. And the turnstiles in Boston charge you a normal fare (therefore, you have to pay again when you reach Braintree).
I was just there. You pay in all stops with a $1 token. If you get off at Braintree (my hotel was in Braintree), you pay another $1 token to exit. Now if you get on in Braintree, you put in 2 tokens.
The London system doesn't validate your ticket - it is valid as soon as you buy it. If you buy a ticket ahead of time, you have to get it from the staffed booth and ask for it to be dated tomorrow (or whatever). The gate system checks on entering and on leaving that you have a valid ticket. The exit gates don't deduct value from your ticket (as the BART ones do - and I guess WMATA, though I've never ridden the Washington system). The London system has the following options at its exit gates:
You have a valid ticket that won't take you any further (a single-ride ticket) - the gate opens and swallows your ticket.
You do not have a valid ticket for the journey just made. The gate doesn't open and it gives you your ticket back. You then have to go to the staffed gate, show your ticket and pay a supplementary fare to get out (like Charlie on the MTA!).
You have a valid ticket and it is valid for more journeys (e.g. an unlimited ticket, a commuter season ticket, or a National Rail ticket that includes an Underground ride). The gate opens and gives you your ticket back.
London Underground doesn't have multijourney tickets (e.g. ten rides) or cash-value ones (e.g. 20 pounds' worth of travel) so a subtraction facility at the exit gate isn't needed.
That, by the way, sounds like another thing that was only in New York. I never heard of that occuring anywhere else.
Let me tell you the story
Of a man named Charlie
On a tragic and fateful day
He put ten cents in his pocket
Kissed his wife and family
Went to ride on the MTA
Charlie handed in his dime
At the Kendall Square Station
And he changed for Jamaica Plain
When he got there
The conductor said
One more nickel
Charlie couldn't get off of that train
Did he ever return...
I was wondering when someone was going to mention Charlie's plight beneath Boston! I was going to if you hadn't.
Thanks on behalf of Charlie,
Mark
If it ever gets to where you have to pay to exit here in NYC, we might have our own Charlie. And I doubt if it will be so funny.
Sung by the Kingston Trio.
It was a political campaign song, by the way, for one George O'Brien.
Here's the rest of the story, thanks to a good guy at MIT!
I always wondered why his wife kept giving him a sandwich instead of a nickle!
Elias
I've mentioned this before but it's probably worth repeating. I encountered the weirdest pay-on-exit system in Japan on a local bus. You board at the back door and collect a ticket from a machine, which has printed on it the number of the stop at which you boarded. Above the driver's head is en electronic sign, constantly updated, showing the fare from each numbered stop to wherever the bus is now. When you are about to alight, you look at the sign to see how much you now have to pay for the journey you've made. You leave by the front door, and as you get off you give your ticket to the driver to prove where you got on, and put the required amount of money for the trip you've just made into the farebox.
I can't remember whether there was any turnstile arrangement either at the rear (to stop you getting on without taking a ticket) or at the front (to stop you leaving until the driver has checked that you've paid the right amount).
There's a riding experience that could have ONLY been developed by the NYC Hack Bureau, I mean the Tax a Limousine Commission (our motto, "we put the TLC into EVERY cab driver's heart") of today. My dad was ITOA Independent Taxi Owner's Association) or "war veterans who got their OWN medallion" ...
Who could put a group experience like "everybody into the bath" in Japan into sharing a taxi with 26 other people? In a bizarre sense that only Nissei could appreciate, there you are. Amusing! Inefficient as all hell for the great American "wallet or purse fumbler" looking for the right change. But then again, I *LOVE* Nihon! Where else would you walk into a shoppe and have ten people in your face bowing until they're about to kiss their shoes, keeping you from getting past them? And you HAVE to honor them by returning the gratitude.
Japan's a most interesting and curious place. That merely reflects it to me. Guess it's because of what I do for a living, having to be aware of the consciousness and customs of many lands (what we sell does better OUTSIDE of America than within) but I actually LIKE that custom, rather than the "push push push" of being an Uh-merican. :)
>>> I encountered the weirdest pay-on-exit system in Japan on a local bus. <<<
Although weird to you, it certainly was a logical distance based system. I wonder if the tickets had unique numbers for every stop, or whether the number represented a zone, and the same number would be printed on tickets at several stops. Then when the bus crossed a zone boundary the B/O could update the location which would change both the ticket printing machine and the electronic fare sign.
Tom
Whatever they do in Japan, they must have better machines (and employees than over here). I regularly ride the 27/28 bus in Leicester and have only once seen the electronic display tell me I'm on a bus bound for Pendlebury Drive. It's quite interesting seeing where the buses I'm not on go though. Oh and sometimes I get really bizarre tickets reading things like 8 - 1 return (when I'm actually paying 5 - 1). Hopefully the Japanese don't have a bus company like ARRIVA Fox County. #lt/rant#gt
IIRC, and maybe it's changed, in Seattle you pay on entry on buses into the central business district, and pay on exit on the way out. The core business district is free (no need to pay at all) and if you go into, through, and out of the district you pay twice.
On the red line in Boston, you pay an extra today if you exit in Braintree (and maybe one other stop).
Actually, given the high farebox recovery ratio on the subway, a short trip on a moderately crowded line costs well under $1.50 to provide.
(But I agree with your overall point.)
Logic would dictate that nothing is free so it should be apparent that I was talking about a general tax. As the system exists now the fare is a user tax. Either way its a tax.
Can you provide a link for the $2.3 figure?
I pay taxes, so I would pay. You pay taxes, so you would pay. Corporations pay taxes, so they would pay. Everybody would pay for this essential service without which the city would cease to function.
We are already paying for street and road repair. Thats not a catastrophic, involuntary event. Do I have to give the pothole crew a token? No I don't. "Someone else" does. Me, you, corporations, limited liability partnerships, everyone.
We are already paying for street and road repair. Thats not a catastrophic, involuntary event. Do I have to give the pothole crew a token? No I don't. "Someone else" does. Me, you, corporations, limited liability partnerships, everyone.
You pay tolls, gasoline taxes, and parking fines. Those are user taxes transit riders do not pay.
Absolutely right.
Does the Lex really need more people riding? The B41? The #7?
Or would these still have a fare? No free lunch - if "soneone else" pays, then that someone else will move away (anyone remember the 70s?).
The fare also acts as a barrier (tolls too). To reduce conjestion, and also to separate the transit from the street. That's why fare beaters are more likely to commit other crimes (rememeber the 1980s?).
Why not make everything free. This way no one would have to work.
Try the M15, see how free rides would do there. Free subways and buses, terrible idea, topic is correct. With unlimited cards, *TECHNICALLY* its free, you have unlimited fares for whatever card you buy.
Tolls should be free the same as the fare. The George Washington Bridge has been paid for 10 times over. Eliminate the gas tax too. The gas tax is just another tax disguised as a "user fee." As for fines, I would advise not to park illegally.
Yes, they lied when they said the toll would be eliminated when the bonds were paid off. The truth is that you need to still maintain it and you also use the toll as a barrier to control congestion (and pollution too). Should there be more traffic on the Cross-Bronx? Ever walk by overhead and take a deep breath?
A better case might be a lower fare in off-hours or weekends, to encourage ridership when capacity goes begging. Still, lost money has to come from sonewhere, and "from soneone else" is not good enough.
>>> The truth is that you need to still maintain it <<<
And that maintenance is not cheap. On the Golden Gate Bridge they just raised the toll and put out a "Donation Box" for pedestrians (who do not pay any toll) to try to raise funds.
Tom
"On the Golden Gate Bridge they just raised the toll and put out a "Donation Box" for pedestrians (who do not pay any toll) to try to raise funds. "
Maybe they could hold a bake sale...:0)
["Yes, they lied when they said the toll would be eliminated when the bonds were paid off."]
No, they didn't lie. Robert Moses lied. The intention was the tolls would eventually be eliminated, like they did with the Southern State toll in Valley Stream, however RM, who was the king of putting loopholes into legislation wrote the wording on the bonds to keep his TBTA self perpetuating. I do have to say that having to pay $7 ($6 with Metrocard EZ Pass) to drive from one borough to another is totally insane!!
What actually happened was an example of the old rule that no government ever gives up a revenue source.
On toll facilites constructed by bond issues, the toll remains after the bond issue expires due to either an new bond is issued for improvements to the toll facility or a new "condsolidated transportation bond issue" is created.
Either way, the toll never goes away even after 40 years or more.
"What actually happened was an example of the old rule that no government ever gives up a revenue source."
Counterexamples: Connecticut Turnpike and Merritt Parkway; Mass Pike west of Springfield.
I believe also the Tacoma Narrows, Lake Washington, and Hood Canal Bridges in WA.
And all of the Long Island and Westchester parkway tolls.
And I-95 North of Baltimore to the Delaware Line, The Fort McHenry Tunnel, The Chesapeake Bay Bridge, The Hatem Bridge on US 40, The Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, the list goes on and on and on and on.
...the Jamestown and Mount Hope Bridges in Rhode Island (which may soon be reinstated)...
No, those tolls are all still in place. I was listing tolls that have been removed.
And SOME governments sell off revenue sources, also known as a "one shot" ... and having done so, then have to raise that revenue somewhere else.
Geez, how do you expect ANYTHING to be paid for? By the State? Federally? Why should I pay for a bridge/road/subway I don't use?
User fees are the fairest way to pay for something. You use it, you pay for it.
Why should I pay for a school system that I have no kids in?
No arguement from me, I don't have any kids, either. The arguement is that educating kids will benefit you and me eventually, we will be their boss one day, so we need them to be smart in order for us to get paid. It's a valid arguement. The same goes with transit, it beneifts everyone. User fees are the fairest, but it may not be the smartest. Post 443700 sums it up nicely, we need to strike a balance between 100% subsidy and 100% user fee. I personally think the system we have now is good, but I'd rather see a slight shift in favor of the user fees, but the balance still needs to be there.
The whole point of the post that stared this thread was that 100% subsidy was the way to go. We need no balance.
I can agree with that
Comrade Piggo
I think there are more essential services that should be free, all forms of transportation costs something directly to whomever uses it, so making transit free shouldn't be a higher priority than other services.
Why not subsidize everything 100%? Food is an essential service, more essential than transit. So let's nationalize all food stores and food production facilities and give everyone an equal ration of food. Children, the elderly, pregnant women, people with disabilities and people who are sick would get an additional ration.
Everybody would get a nice homogenous apartment and they would be able to ride to work or school (free through doctorate level!) on nice free buses or subways. America would be just like the wonderful People's Democratic Republic of Korea.
The problem with this whole thing is that nobody has an incentive to do anything. I guess it would have to be a crime not to work, otherwise nobody would bother, and I can't imagine anybody would bother to better themselves and to get a harder job that is more rewarding for society, or to go through years of education.
The first thing one learns in introductory economics is that incentives matter.
Corporations are already paying for transit through user fees. They have to pay their employees' salaries don't they?
User fees are the most efficient way of paying for things. The reason you do not pay directly for things like road repair or firefighting services is because they are public goods: non-excludable and non-rival in consumption.
Transit ISN'T non-excludable, it is obviously practical to bar entry to a transit vehicle for failure to pay a fee. Transit ISN'T non-rival, since you can always take a bus instead of the subway or vice-versa, drive, bicycle or walk.
>>> The reason you do not pay directly for things like road repair or firefighting services is because they are public goods: non-excludable and non-rival in consumption. <<<
What does "non-excludable and non-rival in consumption" mean? Users sometimes do pay for those thing as users. Street lighting, road repairs and fire protection (rather than firefighting) are sometimes subject to special assessments on property owners in the immediate area as the beneficiaries of those services.
Tom
An example is given in the following paragraph.
The example that you gave seems like a property tax, not a user fee. In any case, those services (street lighting, road repairs) by someone who does not own property in that area and is just passing through.
A street light is a great example of a public good. You can't block someone from getting illumination from a street light if he or she didn't pay for it while allowing those who paid their light bill to use it.
"What does "non-excludable and non-rival in consumption" mean?"
More precisely:
- Non-excludable means that if the good is provided to anyone, others who haven't paid for it can't be prevented from using it.
- Non-rivalrous means that if I use a good, it doesn't cause there to be less available for others.
A sidewalk is non-excludable but not non-rivalrous.
A streetlight is both.
Software is non-rivalrous but (at least when Microsoft is involved) not non-excludable.
Manufactured goods are neither.
The Triborough bridge has probably been paid for 60 times over for all I care. The bad thing about it, is they do a terrible job in maintaining roadways ob the bridges.
#3 West End Jeff
Can you provide a link for the $2.3 figure?
Sure
thanks
The side problem that would be created by making the system free is that, under the ruling that allowed the MTA to limit the subways use by panhandlers, fundraisers, toy/battery/junky stuff salespeople and your garden variety homless person, the court ruled that because of the fare, the system could not be consiered a "public place" in the same way a sidewalk is a public place. Take away the fare and you take away the rationale for the court ruling and the subway gets more annoying to your average rider pretty fast.
Then there's the rule of subsidy -- you subsidize something, you get more of it. People right now who might walk from Point A to Point B or go to a business in their own neighborhood or working area would be more likely to jump on the train and go further away if there's no direct cost. And while increasing subway ridership might not be such a bad idea, increasing subway ridership on the Lex or the E and F trains in Queens during rush hour isn't most people's idea of a good thing. The MTA would then have to add trains, which they don't have right now (unless they decide to rebondo the remaining Rebirds for another decade or so). That would leave them with the option of either boosting the order of R-160 cars and adding a new R-161 order for the IRT, which would be a huge extra cost going out with el zippo incoming coming in from the system to pay for it. They would also need addition T/Os, C/Rs maintenance staff, etc., to support the larger fleet, again with no direct finanical support coming in.
To fund that, the state would have to jack their own taxes up and definitely restore the commuter tax (court challenge likely here), while at the same time going to the federal government (which is being asked to cancel long distance Amtrak service because it's a big money pit) and requestion a few billion extra to support a free NYC subway system. The feds will give the city a few billion to fix up the transportation system around the WTC, but no way in hell are they going to finance a $3 billion free mass transit subsidy annually in perpetuity, with the prospects for that subsidy ballooning as more people take advantage of the "something for nothing" system and stress the infrastructure.
Other than all that, of couse, it's a wonderful idea...
In reality, free transit can lead to problems. One city, I don't remember which one, tried it and the buses turned into rolling homeless shelters. I'm all for addressing homelessness, but there are better solutions to that problems than driving homeless people around town all night. Build and fund real shelters, ones that don't use costly diesel fuel.
In fact, transit is "mostly free," in that riders don't pay nearly as much as it really costs to operate transit systems in most cases. I think fares should be kept reasonable to make transit available to those who need it most. Philadelphia's $2.00 base fare is too high, though you can ride for less by using tokens or passes. I think programs like Transit Check, under which employers help employees pay for transit are a good idea, too, since employers benefit just as much from transit. I don't know how available that kind of thing is to people who work minimum wage service jobs, though.
Mark
Homeless people, or anyone else that abuses the system would be a police problem.
>>> Homeless people, or anyone else that abuses the system would be a police problem. <<<
"Would be a police problem." What exactly does that mean? Police are to be given descretion to remove anyone they want from subways? Police enforce laws. If one can enter and exit the subway system without cost, what would prevent a homeless person from riding around, and if asked to leave by a police officer, leaving for a few minutes to catch a bus to another station and entering again. How would you define abuse of the system? How about railfans on disability riding around the system for twelve hours each day? What about juveniles after school riding around for kicks. Without any entry fare, the subways would become a zoo.
Tom
Mike Quill (rest his soul) proposed this exact thing in the late 60s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Red Mike! I wouldn't have him make transit policy - after all, even the communist countries charged a transit fare. New York's experiments in Socialiam in the late-60s/early 70s (ie Lindsey) just ended up in bankrupcy.
you seem to forget about the SIR it seems to work fine, free most of the way
No - you collect fares where it is most efficient and for the SIRT is is at St. George. It isn't worth having the conductor wald through the cars anymore, and adding fare controls and fences at stations is probably too much spending for too little return.
Look in the Staten Island Advance archives (I think they're available at www.silive.com -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Every few months there are articles about people complaining about a decline in the quality of life on SIR since crews stopped collecting fares (graffiti, drunken passengers, etc.). The people are usually quoted as requesting that fares be reinstated.
David
It is not considered socialism when you pay for other essential GOVERNMENT services through taxes, why is it that the trnsit system is different?
It is not considered socialism when you pay for other essential GOVERNMENT services through taxes, why is it that the trnsit system is different?
Who says it isn't? Any government service that could be provided privately is a form of socialism. It is impractical to have a society completely free of socialism.
The question is, to what degree should a society be socialist and what would be most beneficial to said society?
Now you've gotten to my point. This is an area where the benefit is so widespread that its revenue should come from the tax base exclusively
No, I haven't?
What about food? That is far more important than transit. Should that also be 100% funded? Where does it stop?
Food is not a government service.
So why then should transit be a government service?
It should be privately handled.
Mike Quill (rest his soul) proposed this exact thing in the late 60s.
I suppose that balances his advocating doubling the fare in the mid 1940's. :-)
When my house catches on fire I don't have to run out and give the firefighters a token so that they will fight the fire. Why should I pay for the transportation that is a necessity of a functioning city?
You will pay for the service whether it is by buying a token or in the form of higher taxes. I, for one, am NOT able or willing to pay more in taxes!! The latest round of real estate tax increases is enough!!!
Should all necessary services be free? I could argue that electricity and telephone service is just as necessary as transportation. Should all these services be included in our tax bills??
It's really a pretty basic economics question, one that is also heavily tinged with politics.
You balance the egalitarian ideal of accessiblity for all against the need to ensure efficient use of resources. That's why almost everything that is publicly funded is rarely completely free, but usually significantly subsidized. The subsidization helps ensure broad access, encouraging the egalitarian society we hope for (but never quite achieve), and the pay-for-use portion helps ensure there isn't unecessary use driving costs up too high. That's why there's a co-pay with health insurance. That's why we pay to ride public transportation or to file a lawsuit or get a passport or any number of things than many, if not all, people will do at least sometimes.
It is an economic question, but most of the time the nominal charge is politically set, based on a balance of the political clout of the users and the political clout of the rest of the taxpayers.
That's why roads are so hugely subsidized but everybody pretends that a car is private transportation. Socialism that looks like capitalism. Perfect for the U.S.
Let's not forget that the "Eisenhower Interstate System" was built for the same purpose as the Autobahn in Germany - the primary user is the MILITARY. Back then, our military was concerned about commies landing in Canada and marching across the border or WORSE, an insurrection by AMERICANS somewhere in the US requiring military response. The clearances and sizings were designed by the military to fit the equipment of the time (and today's specs STILL go by those mandatory clearances of bridges, widths, etc) ... that's why you'll ALSO notice frequent straight runs every X number of miles to permit the landing of aircraft if necessary.
But we get to drive on them in "peacetime." And of course, what was good for GM was good for America as well, but it was Military purposes and needs that created the interstates. Note also that in some states where the "Eisenhower" signs appear, there's a pentagon arrangement of stars on the Eisenhower logo. Ah, if only the military considered railroads vital. :(
that's why you'll ALSO notice frequent straight runs every X number of miles to permit the landing of aircraft if necessary.
http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp
Ah, well ... but that black helicopter hovering out in my yard is real, right? :)
Thanks for the info!
A spec that was proposed was landing areas for flying cars because everyone thought they would have been invented by the 60s or 70s.
A spec that was proposed was landing areas for flying cars because everyone thought they would have been invented by the 60s or 70s.
They were invented in the 1930s...there just happen to be a billion practical obstacles to their use as personal transport: cost, the high degree of skill it takes to be a helicopter pilot, the air traffic control nightmare that would result, etc.
Mark
The late Cole Palen had one on display at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome when my father was stunt flying on weekends back in the '50s and early '60s... as I recall it was strictly a display piece. Interesting looking critter, kind of like an overgrown VW bug with wings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interstates are officially called "Interstate and Defense Highways", but I had always assumed that this was simply a device to get them funded - on the grounds that the American people won't vote for taxes for anything other than the military, so you pretend that something is military so as to get it funded.
Turns out what I'd heard wasn't correct, no surprise there. But Americans are an odd lot - no matter WHAT the purpose of the tax, we'll whine and wriggle and howl. Ah, if only folks on this side knew what YOU GUYS pay in taxes, the whining would stop. Nah. :)
No VAT here either. Then again, at least the rest of the world GETS something for their taxes. Here in the states, we give the proceeds to the rich.
Telephone and electric services are not provided by government agencies. Subway and bus service is. It is already subsidised with taxes, mine and yours, but when you ride you are subject to another tax. This second tax should be spread among all taxpayers including businesses. The tolls and gas tax should be treated the same.
By the way, those damn Metrocard Machines suck! They always malfunction, I remember 2 of those @#$% machines stole my money! So from this day on, I go to the clerk at the booth.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I've been using MVMs since the beginning and have *never* had a problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
Neither have I.
Chicago uses a similar system, and I've never met anyone who lost money in a machine. I've heard of peoples' cards getting mangled in the faregate readers, but even that I've never seen or heard from anyone I knew.
I as well. I believe if the transaction going wayward, you may request a receipt as evidence. Also, look at the machine number on the MVM itself. You can report problems having that number in mind.
Consider yourself lucky.....
-Stef
Well I never had a problem with the MVM. YOU should have went to the booth and told them what happened [I'm sure you did that]. Anyway, you're going to have to use it sooner or later.
Staten Island Railroad and Bronx Tour Trolley are free ways of getting around if you can use them.
Staten Island Railroad and Bronx Tour Trolley are free ways of getting around if you can use them.
The Staten Island Railroad is not free. It is the Staten Island Ferry that is free.
if you don't get on/off at St George then the SIR is free
It's just not worth trying to collect the fare elsewhere - the vast majority of riders use St George. The high costs of trying other means to collect the small percentage of lost fares is just not worth it.
I mean, the "Honor System" in various other cities could be considered "free" too if you avoid paying the fare. Doesn't make them free, just makes some riders dishonest.
like the (5) at night and the fare beating
The Staten Island Railway does not collect a fare unless you exit or enter at St. George. Neither do train personnel attempt to collect fares on board. Thus, for transportation between most Staten Island destinations served by SIR (but not St. George), the ride is indeed "free."
This is in contrast to the honor system used on other systems, like Los Angeles MTA, where you are expected to pay a fare but passengers are only spot-checked for fare tickets. If you are caught without one, I believe the fine is $300.
>>> This is in contrast to the honor system used on other systems, like Los Angeles MTA, where you are expected to pay a fare but passengers are only spot-checked for fare tickets. <<<
It is just as incorrect to say that you are expected to pay a fare in Los Angeles as it would be to say you are expected to pay a fare in New York. Both systems require that you pay a fare.
You misname it when you call the Los Angeles and other POP systems an "honor system". There is no more honor involved than there is to collecting fares at a turnstile which can be physically jumped over. Jumping over a turnstile, or entering an exit gate, or the exit door of a bus is illegal. The difference is that in turnstile systems, it is not necessary to carry anything after entering the system. In POP systems you are required to pay a fare before entering and have proof that you paid the fare on you at all times. Therefore those who are dishonest have only a momentary time to worry about being caught at the time of entry in a turnstile system, while in a POP system the fare beater runs the risk during the whole trip.
To be an honor system there would be no checking of tickets at all and no penalty for not paying. Some say that describes the LIRR during commuting hours. :-)
Tom
Chicago (and I imagine many other cities) has a tourist "trolley" system with (diesel) buses made up to look like streetcars that ferry tourists between major sites. They are regular enough that locals can (and occasionally do, though not often) use them for some trips that would normally be the purvey of the CTA bus or rail system.
Gawd, I can't stand those fake trolleys. Gimme a bus, or, a trolley bus, or, a trolley. I don' need no stinkin' feel-good wrapper.
There is "free" service in NY. It's called the Staten Island Railway - just don't exit the system at St. George.
And the SI Ferry is "free" too.
While you're at it bridge and tunnels should be free too!!
I'm with that!
And MTA should serve free cold cuts and cheesecake slices in station mezzanines.
>>> While you're at it bridge and tunnels should be free too!! <<<
Right on brother!! They were set up by The Man; a clear case of entrapment!! Free the bridges and tunnels!!! :-)
Tom
sure would take a hell of a load off the working poor 4 sure ....
the transit dependant would benefit highly ......
the money that could go to medical rent food clothing shelter ...etc
sure would take a hell of a load off the working poor 4 sure ....
the transit dependant would benefit highly ......
the money that could go to medical rent food clothing shelter ...etc"
sure helps when you R outa work cause of "BUSH & the REPUBLICANS'..!!
yea ! a GOOD IDEA-NATIONWIDE 4 sure !! ............lol !!
woooooopeee.......
YOU MUST BE NUTS TO GIVE SEVEN MILLION CUSTOMERS A FREE PASS. AND WHEN TRANSIT SYSTEMS GO BANKRUPT, YOU WILL KNOW WHY WE HAVE NO SUBWAYS AND BUSES. YOU MIGHT AS WELL GIVE EVERYONE BREAKFAST, LUNCH, AND DINNER FOR FREE!
calm down first and B reasonable ...............!
our payroll taxes pay 4 it ...
Many americans are more 4 somethin' like dis' over the
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS WASTED ON THE WEAPONS & WAR DEPT. BUDGET !!
cut these corporate welfare rip off types and there would be
plenty of money to fund free bus and rail transit for everyone!
How about using the surplus money to promote manufacturing and industrial trades, improved job and college training, and develop a better, highly skilled labor force, instead of giving us a free pass. Sad to say, but when was the last time you bought a T.V. that was made in the good old UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Everything in the electronics industry is less expensive than even 5 years ago because of cheap labor overseas, too many layoffs in the U.S. workforce, the ecomony SUCKS! (World-CON, Enron, Tyco, Martha Stewart, Kmart didn't help), the list goes on and on.
k................but
at least would you support a 50c / w free transfer fare for all
rail and bus systems ??
i do own one of the last USA made cars a 1982 caprice SW with a
1983 oldsmobile 350 engine ........
still runs great with a lot of tlc ......
i do wish my digital still cameras vcrs and tv sets were still made
here by usa union paid labor for sure !!
i agree with most of your post thats why first i asked 4 the free
transit fare first then no more that a 50c fare at the most !!
thankz .......
Good point...I think a fare may be a necessary evil, but tranist should be subsidized to keep the fare as low as possible so that those who really need it most can afford it. A 50-cent fare would be great, but I'd be happy even to see a $1.00 fare in larger cities.
I also think programs like TransitCheck here in the Philly metro area are a great idea and should be expanded to help riders cover their transit costs.
Mark
My employer has an excellent transit-subsidy plan.
They pay for 50% of my commuter rail pass (which here in Boston includes all the subways & buses you can eat :-) The other 50% comes out of my pay check pre-tax, which results in an additional savings.
They also encourage transit usage by imposing a hefty on-site parking fee for those who choose to drive.
>>> They also encourage transit usage by imposing a hefty on-site parking fee for those who choose to drive. <<<
Is that by government mandate? In the ‘80s in L.A. when rail transit was being proposed (and supported by local government) large central city employers and local government employers were prohibited from providing free parking for employees.
Tom
It's not a mandate, but an option that Massachusetts employers have.
how does transit check work ? i would like to really know about this
In the Transit Check program your employer gives you a voucher every month that you can use to buy passes or tokens from any transit agency in the Philly Metro area. The dollar value of the voucher is decided by the employer. My employer gives me a $15 voucher every month, which is kind of odd since a monthly pass is $70.
Mark
If you didn't want to pay the remaining $55 out-of-pocket (and you had another means of transportation), could you save up five months' worth of vouchers and cash them in for a monthly pass? Or could you by $15 worth of individual fares each month?
Sure. You can use the Transit Check voucher to buy tokens, a wayof purchasing individual rides. You can also save them up. I sometimes get my voucher after I've already bought my pass, so I just use two of them the next month and save $30 on that pass.
Mark
wow the minimum wage folks should get this break too....
I would like to see this made available to minimum wage workers, the ones who really need it the most. But I have no idea how widespread participation in the program is, since it's completely voluntary.
Mark
The transit system that is funded by taxes would not go bankrupt. Thats like saying the police department or deptment of sanitation would go bankrupt.
they could have free buses and fare charged subways.
They do have "Shuttle Bus Service" in the Bronx for those long G.O.s on the (2) and (5) lines. For once the Bronx gets something good instead of being screwed over, FREE BUS SERVICE, now if only the (6) line could shut down for a few weekends...
The M7 and M102 shuttle buses, I think could be used as free transport at night(for about 11-12 blocks) or is it only for (3) riders?
The M7 and M102 shuttle buses replace 3 trains from 135 St to 148 St/Lenox Terminal in the late nights. Not all people like shuttle buses you know!
but they are free!
I know but some people get frustrated by it b/c it adds time.
MTA should have a free East Midtown rush-hour shuttle bus (more doors, less seating) running on Lex and 3rd Avenues between GC and 68th Street Subway stop. Would take load of of Lex Subway for people working in Midtown and using either F, N, R, W, E, V, and 7 trains or MNRR.
Arti
TANSTAAFL
R.A.H.
...and may I say, damn right!
or how about a fixed 50c fare for all bus / rail systems nationwide?
If E-Z pass can be used up and down the Northeast and the Great Lakes, so can Metrocard:
With each public transportation system having it's own fare collection system, how about expanding Metrocard to SEPTA, WMATA, Balitmore Transit, even CTA in Chicage, etc? We may not be sure about the Unlimited riade cards outside of NYC, but with the Pay-Per-Ride system, the correct fare amount can be deducted from the card, regardless of which transit the card holder uses.
Something to think about! After all E-Z Pass can be used on the NJT, GSP, NY State Thruway, PA Turnpike, AC Expressway, many others. So lets have a universal fare card for public transportation use.
>>So lets have a universal fare card for public transportation
use.
<< Its called cash. Seriously, you are certainly correct that with minor software tweaking much of this should be possible, STARTING with PATH!
PATH's post-9/11 budget includes a new farecard system for about 4%0 million. I guess we'll see if it's Metrocards or not.
They should install Metrocard on the commuter railroads. Rather than have to swipe at Grand Central and Penn, where they might be congestion, just have entry and exit swipes elsewhere. If you don't have two swipes from somewhere else, assume Penn or GCT is the destination. Use CCTV and roving police to arrest those who hop up on the platform to avoid the turnstile.
>>> If E-Z pass can be used up and down the Northeast and the Great Lakes, so can Metrocard: <<<
Isn't E-Z pass a credit card system? Does the card itself store value, or is it linked to a credit card and when you use it, it is charged to your credit card account? MetroCard is a debit card in that you must deposit money with the MTA before using the card, and you can never spend more than you have already paid for.
Sharing the same card is easy with a credit card system. There is no float. With a debit card it is a little more difficult. Presently it is the MTA holding your money. There is no money being held by SEPTA or WMATA or any other system. What is their incentive to let you use an MTA debit card? They would have to bill MTA to get the money owed. What's in it for the MTA? They have the float already. What is their incentive to send money to other transit systems?
Tom
E-ZPass is a debit system. The debit system can be linked to a credit card so that, when a balance drops below $10, the account is replenished to the average monthly usage (with a $25 minimum). But some prefer not to use a credit card and to instead replenish by check or cash.
Further complicating matters, there is no single agency that holds all E-ZPass accounts. My E-ZPass account is maintained by the New York Service Center, which handles the Port Authority, MTA, New York State Thruway Authority, and New York State Bridge Authority facilities. If I use one of those facilities, the NYSC forwards the money to the proper agency. If I use some other facility, say the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the NYSC sends the money to the PTC.
If MetroCard were expanded to other systems, each system would install its own MVM's and would only have to send bills when a card purchased on one system is used elsewhere. Automated billing is certainly feasible -- in addition to NYCT, MetroCards (even unlimited passes) are accepted on the NYCDOT private bus routes, LI Bus, and SIR, and there's been talk of expanding MetroCard to PATH and BeeLine.
But I don't think there's sufficient demand for all those other agencies to revamp their fare control systems to take MetroCard. It would be a fairly simple matter for the CTA, whose cards are basically MetroCards encoded differently, but except for tourists, NYC and Chicago don't have many cross-users.
"... how about expanding Metrocard to SEPTA, WMATA, Balitmore Transit, even CTA in Chicage, etc ..."
It's a money issue, the MTA wants it. They don't want others selling cards that get used in THEIR system. The deal with PATH was a had sell to the MTA. CTransit was another had sell.
However "Smart Cards" are coming, so this may all change.
Man! Down here in Puerto Rico the MBA charges from 25 cents to 50 cents for 1 freekin bus ride. On nearly all routes, exapmle: A5 A6 B8 C10 B40, 25 cents. FOr METROBUS 1 (san juan capital to rio piedras ) 50 cents. METROBUS 2 Santurce Bayamon banking district, 50 cents. And only the old...(senior citizens. Sorry!) pay a quater. On the other lines 10 miserable cents. Now we're getting a "New" train. Something that was GOING TO "ÖPEN". According to the government ! Septembe of 2002. NOT!!!! the cars are coming from SIEMENS of California. They look weird. Fare! $1.20. Senior citz: 60 cents.
Any1 want pics of train terminal and the looks of the shitty construction? Let me know. As well as if any1 want some bus pic's to.
INCLUDING NOVABUS LFS. running on Metro1. Startts at 5am and ends at 11:30 pm daily.
.........especially with this depression coming on .........
" cut the weapons and war budget ""
" reform the war budget "
& you will have plenty left over to do this with ease !!!
FREE TRANIST NATIONWIDE 4 SURE !!!
espeially in a depression........
You should know you can't escape paying the percentage of the state tax of whichever state you're dwelling in. Revenue for transit companies is crucial to maintaining its operating systems. Why do you think AMTRAK has gone through a financial turmoil recently in the past? Without fares, it would've shut down by now. Taxes don't cover EVERY service of necessity in the community. You'll notice that the amount of tax you're paying is already covering the funding for your highways, your state (so the state can have funding for various types of sorts, i.e. a building project), and federal business.
Food is a necessity. Why should it be free? Why isn't it free? A home is necessary for healthy living. Transportation is a necessity. School is. If you researched the breakdown for the taxes you are paying, these exclude personal service benefits. Understand the definition of the word 'tax'.
Not EVERYONE needs public transportation to get around. Hence this covers for the 'paying for the schooling system when I don't have kids to send to school.' Would it be fair to the people that don't use public service just as you don't think it's fair that your taxes are going to schooling?
Consider this:
A bulkhead of NJT's operating expenses is based on passenger fares. A large 46%. The other subsidiary companies that support NJT do not amount to more than half of this number for each subsidiary NJT has. Fractions remaining from 100% are covered from various sources, with a backup from the state government. Take out the fares and NJT (or any other company) has no money to fund itself. Then we should make all transportation free. Gas free. Trains free. Airplanes free.
NO.
Think of the term "EVERYONE" and you'll see that EVERYONE does not need some things that one person might need for convenience.
Services that are not covered by taxes, the resident must pay for. Probably some research of where your tax goes will help in this situation.
BTW. 911 service comes along with a service fee.
Noticed a new picture on the rotating banner images of a LIRR diesel train zooming on the express track, but the caption does not mention the location where this pic was taken. It's at Woodside station, and the train is heading towards Jamaica.
Not new, just random. But I fixed the caption anyway.
Does anyone know what happened to William Menden (BMT president) after the BMT was sold to the city. Someone told me that he was involved in the construction of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel - does anyone know in what capacity??
Thanks
After yesterdays rush hour 12-9 on the F at 34th/6th. There was another today, at around noon, at 47/50th. When I got on the D at 34th we bypassed 47/50, it would seem a train (think it was a V) had struck someone about 3/4 of the way into the station, not a pretty site.
From what I could piece together, all N/B Fs were going up 8th Avenue and N/B Vs were being switched to the express tracks north of 34/6th.
Peace,
ANDEE
NEWS REPORT HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
found it somewhat ironic that today's 12-9 happened at 12:09
Yes, very ironic.
Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's coincidence, not irony.
Now that's something, see how things happen nowadays......
Hmm.. I concur.
12:09? I encountered problems during the PM Rush.
Fs and Vs were running on the express track from West 4th to 42nd Sts, bypassing 34th St on the way up. Ds meanwhile, were picking up passengers on the downtown platform.
-Stef
There was a big delay on the 1 last night about 9:30PM, anyone know what was up? They said "Police Investigation"
12-9 also. My train was turned at 96St and went back south. Got a nice OT from it as well.
Da Beastmaster
Just a rant on the state of annoucements out there, cuz it seems like things are going downhill.
Two weeks go I was posting at 239, "customer injury" at Court St so 2 was running via Lex. I hope on the N from 42 to Lex and try to catch the 2 there. 5... 5... 4... 5... then I see a 5 going to E180, figure I can ride the layup up to 239 if it goes that way. Get to 149/GC and magically a 2. Turns out the common practice now with the rerouted trains is to change the route on the computer as opposed to making manual announcements. Nice, so the customers looking for the 2 can stand at 59th till they turn blue.
Or this one I took this morning on the A line. "Utica Av. Get your C across the plat. A train Manhattan bound. Nostrand Av next." No, I am not abbrevating Avenue here. He actually said "Av" (pronounced Aav)and "plat". Are the two extra syllables really *that* much?
No wonder people out there think TA workers are morons.
I think you are out of line here, and I don't work for NYCT:
I do believe that there is a LOT of misinformation, and supervisors at major towers don't know trains very well or don't care. When the building collapse last week suspended all Metro-North service. the announcement at Grand Central/IRT platforms went like this:
"...for Metro North service, take the Shuttle to Times Square, change there for the #1 to 225th st (some were saying 242nd st).." trouble is the #1 does not stop there when 1/9 skip-stop service is in effect (announcement made at 5 PM) AND waht about the instructions to get to the Harlem/New Haven Lines? (Take the #4 uptown to Fordham Road and then Bx12 bus to Webster Ave, or walk 8 blocks east OR #5 thru express to 233rd st, walk 5 blocks west, etc.)"
Some conductors are just as guilty, they tell you that you can transfer to the #7 train when it wasn't running in Manhattan the past 3 weekends. But that doesn't mean they are morons, it's just no excuse for them not to read the G.O. listings they carry with them all the time.
He didn't say TA workers were morons, he said the public thinks they're morons.
I believe you're both right.
They aren't morons, but some are lazy, and some are working with miserably poor information because management doesn't make it a priority to give them good information.
Lazy might be an understatement for some. Remember the major West side IRT G.O. that had no train service below 34th st? Well I stood at Chambers St on the A and C lines, a transfer point to the 1 and 2 trains at Park Place back then (9/11 emergency service plan), and stood there for an hour. Although Park Place was closed, and according to the posters "...the A and C are the only way to go" (between Midtown and Lower Manhattan on the West side), not ONE single C/R mention that G.O.. (they all made this announcement: "you can transfer to the 1 and 2 lines at the rear end of the station." or similar text).
Now is THAT being ignorant or what?
Know what I think? I think it's you who are ignorant.
I am a conductor, and I resent the hell out of that remark. For your information, sir, conductors have no foreknowledge of G.O.s that don't affect their line. I work the C line. If I don't know that the 2 or 3 is not running at Park Place, then I'm going to say, "Transfer to the 2 and 3." at Chambers Street.
When I sign on to a job at my terminal, I am only told of G.O.s that affect the C line. There have been times that the A ran a G.O. where there was no service to Far Rockaway and I said, "Transfer to the Lefferts Blvd. and Far Rockaway A train." Is that my fault?
There's only so much a road conductor can do. There's no way we're going to know the G.O.s for 23 lines at the same time. You wanna rant? Why don't you rant that there's no in-station announcements being made over the station P.A. at those affected stations? Why don't you rant that there's not more platform conductors on the platform to help confused passengers find their way through the system?
You have some legitimate gripes, but getting on conductors' announcements ain't gonna solve the problem. It's easy to yell at the low man on the totem pole. Think about the higher-ups at the MTA who are paid to think up these confusing general orders who sit at home on weekends while the road crews and the public suffer through them. Call them ignorant.
Next time, think about what you say before you say it.
You're both right.
C/R's should adjust their announcements for GO's on other lines. It happens on occasion -- I've heard C/R's on the D and 6 announce that the usual transfers to the E aren't available.
But it's unreasonable to expect that if management doesn't give its C/R's a complete list of GO's, ideally organized in a useful fashion for each C/R, along with some extra paid time (would 15 minutes suffice?) to study the list.
If you want a rant, it's that service advisories are almost never posted on trains these days.
There are times when if a G.O. is major enough, other lines may include it in their announcements. The "E - 6" transfer at Lexington Avenue is a major one. If one or the other is not working, the conductors need to be told that so they can make the appropriate adjustments to their announcements at that station. But I still say that it's generally impossible to know all G.O.s on all the lines.
If I sat in a station making announcements reciting every service change on every line along with the travel options, I'd never get to the end of the line and I'd never be on time. There'd be no end to the number of passengers coming to my cab window asking questions. There'd be no end to the people standing in doorways holding doors looking confused trying to figure out how to get where they're going.
As I said, there need to be more in-station announcements, and more passenger controllers to help guide them when there are major service changes. The world should not be placed on my shoulders like that. It's not fair.
On the other hand, I have heard many C/Rs make the critical announcements that keep people from wasting large amounts of time.
For example, if the 7 terminates at Queensboro Plaza, often 4/5/6 C/Rs on northbound trains at 42nd will announce "Attention, there is no 7 service in Manhattan. Please stay on this train to 59th St and transfer for an N [now it would be W, of course] for Queensboro Plaza."
This is a reasonable service that management should be asking C/Rs to provide.
I agree it is more difficult to handle things like the upcoming L GO. A 4/5/6 C/R would be at it for minutes on end explaining all the bypass options, and then they'd just be asked to repeat it. There I can accept that people who don't read the posters (different issue: posters need to get replenished because people tear them down) may end up wasting time.
4/5/6 C/R's don't have to mention the upcoming L GO, since anyone who needs the L has to get off there anyway and transfer to something, either train or bus. (I suppose that those bound for Broadway Junction might be better off going to Canal or Chambers for the J or to Fulton for the A/C.) But if, say, the SB R/W is running over the bridge one weekend, C/R's on the SB 2/3/4 should announce that passengers wishing to transfer to the SB R/W should wait until Atlantic. (But they can't be expected to do that if they're not given the information in a useful format along with time to read and digest it.)
"(I suppose that those bound for Broadway Junction might be better off going to Canal or Chambers for the J or to Fulton for the A/C.)"
That was my point. There are reroutes people might do because of the L GO, but they're too complicated for C/Rs to announce. But as you also point out, for many other GOs the serious incovenience to passengers can be greatly reduced with some simple announcements.
Computers are cheap!
There is no reason why a C/R cannot have a fresh prinout of his entire route and the GOs at all of his stations handed to him before as he boards his train. There is no need to 'study' it. Just READ the dang thing when you get to each station.
Heck, freight C/Rs get such lists for their entire train, including set outs and pick ups, the contents, and HASMAT information when they board the train.
Elias
Yeah, but freight C/R's don't have to deal with their cargo yelling and screaming at them due to work on that or ajoining lines.
Yeah, but freight C/R's don't have to deal with their cargo yelling and screaming at them
All the more reason that NYCT C/Rs should be given a fresh printout of their route before departing the terminal.
Elias
Cargo? Man ... I got in trouble for calling them "geese" ... watch out for them termatos. :)
Thats right: If you send it by SHIP then it is CARGO
but if you send it on a TRAIN then it is a SHIPMENT!
You also may park your car in a DRIVEWAY, and drive your car on a PARKWAY.
Elias
Well, you can wait here in the sitting room, or you can sit here in the waiting room. I'm soooooooo tired ... :)
Each of the 465 subway stations has a weekend service changes poster listing all of the G.O.'s the riding public can read. Many, not all, conductors ride the subway to/from work, and I was not expecting conductors to identify ALL General Orders, and what to do, just the major ones involving no train service.
Think about it, you ride the #1 train and you ask the conductor at Times Square where is the E train, she or he tells you "go downstairs and follow the signs.". When you walk through the long passageway to 8th Ave side, you find out that there is no E train, because it was rerouted over the F line. So you have to hoof it back the same passageway, take the #7 train, take it one stop to 5th Ave and pick up the E or F train there. Or, if you are clever enough, you can take S/B A or C train to West 4th St and pick up uptown E there. But in the process, you walked nearly 3 long blocks underground just to transfer to your train under the first option.
I consider supervisors totally devoid of any nature of providing the right information to conductors and train operators, the West side IRT G.O. I mentioned in the last post was a TRIPLE MAJOR one. And I DO understand that Conductors are kept in the dark on this matter. Even tower operators on the IRT are just as guilty as well, when the #5 train is not running in Manhattan, there were NO ANNOUNCEMENTS, NONE WHATSOEVER about the #5 train affected by a G.O. Compounding matters, conductors on connecting routes to the #5 (with the exception of the #2 train or course.) made the incorrect announcement.
Even G.O.'s or no G.O's, announcements are made with transfer routes that don't run, such as the N train in Manhattan on weekends, or the B and V lines, also on weekends. THAT is no excuse there, because the subway side of "The Map" has a table on the lower right side, broken down by time of day, of all subway lines: it tells you when "No Service" is listed. Some C/R's need to take a few minutes out and study the subway map, like I do.
You are not expected to say "transfer to the L train shuttle bus or #1 Uptown trains running express" people will see that and will have to use alternate routes at that station anyway. I just want customers to perceive conductors as better informed, so I won't have to make these announcemnts while I'm riding the Q train as a courtesy measure. When we had Shuttle buses between Atlantic Ave and Propspect Park, I try to see some poeple to the Shuttle as an easier and better way than standing in the cold for a crowded bus, take that to Botanic Garden and use the IRT there. I don't get paid for doing this, I do this anyway, 'cause I love to help whenever I can and I'm a dedicated transit buff that will not do stupid things (like stealing uniforms to gain restricted access to employee facilites or operate a train.) to get attention. Sadly to say, some customers have came up to me and told me straight up, that I'm more knowledgable than the conductor, this is not a good perception for conductors. They are dedicated civil servants, many of whom have 25-30 years on the job and transit is in their blood.
But amongst all this, I still consider many conductors to be dedicated, helpful and a few I can mention, to represent the best of what NYCT has to offer. PERIOD!
Even tower operators on the IRT are just as guilty as well
Whoa there. That's the job of deicated announcers (which are conductors), which are in the towers during GOs. The only place you'll find a TW/O making an announcement is where there are no dedicated announcers and no T/D's. Then they're responsible for announcements. And if they didn't make them, you'd be 100% right - TW/O is guilty. But especially in the IRT where GC and TSQ controls most of the area, they have dedicated announcers. No announcements? Then complain, most of those C/R's are being paid O/T to be there, and should be doing their job.
Dedicated Announcers don't work Wkends unless they are on overtime. Most times Grand Central or Times SQ don't have them on Wkends.
Hey, Dave! The Dedicated Announcer I know ain't all that Dedicated...Hahahahahaha! :)
(Just bustin' some nads)
HaHa! We need to give him a job at Grand Central.
"Dedicated Announcers don't work Wkends unless they are on overtime. Most times Grand Central or Times SQ don't have them on Wkends."
I hope there is one at Mott this weekend.
Da Beastmaster
Let the games begin!!!
Station Dept Personnel will be busy directing the crowds to the buses.
It will be an inconvenience for me getting off from work at 66th St 1:30AM on Saturday, and have to hop into a shuttle bus, unless I decide to walk home at that hour (which I've done).
Speaking of the switches, two new homeballs have gone up, and a wye switch is being cut in at the end of M Track south of Jackson.
-Stef
I hope so. Last Wkend the T/D had to make the announcements.
He's absolutely correct. We in the A divison do not know anything that goes on in the B divsion. Unless we are on the 7 line, which transfers with many B divsion lines. So as far as a weekend GO is concerned, we only know what is going on our line and our line only. Just last week, I thought that the 3 was supposed to go Uitca Ave only with shuttle train service to New Lots. I also found out when I got Nevins St, that the S/B 3s were running express from Atlantic to Utica with the 4s. The 2 was the only S/B local. This is within my A divsion, my West Side. And you expect for me to worry about GOs on 20 other lines. Sorry.
You know I got you back Road Dogg.
Da Beastmaster
I saw a #3 train on the express track at Franklin and yes NYCT never informed anyone that the S/B #3 trains ran express, bypassing Nostrand and Kingston Aves. In you scenario, it's the fault of higher management (many don't care) about posting information to the public and to it's employees. According to the poster I read it only mention that "Trains run in 2 sections", nothing in print about "in addition, Utica Ave bound #3 and #4 trains skip Nostrand and Kingston Aves." (#4 trains stop at Nostrand and Kingston from 1-6 AM daily, a little later on Sundays)
It does help to read the weekend service changes poster at your terminal station (most stations have it.), since you are correct that management and supervisors are too lazy to at a minimum, tell you the important G.O.'s that have no train service in either direction at a transferring station. Only computers can memorize every G.O. and I don't care about knowning whether the D train runs in 2 sections at Bedfoofrd Park or not, it's not as important as the #7 train not running in Manhattan
BTW: The #7 train is in the same A division as your #3 train.
"BTW: The #7 train is in the same A division as your #3 train."
The No.7 Line is A Div. but they are controled by the BMT Control center. The #7 is it own little line and don't hear about what going on with the rest of the IRT Line. On the 4/5/6 the only way I know the #7 isn't working is if its roped off.
I got your Back Beastmaster!
Only computers can memorize every G.O.
Yet the computerized announcement systems can't be programmed for GO's on other lines. How silly to pass up the opportunity.
change there for the #1 to 225th st (some were saying 242nd st).." trouble is the #1 does not stop there when 1/9 skip-stop service is in effect
Somehting like that Skip-Stop service may have been suspended, or the 1 just made that 1 extra stop.
Let's make it slear I didn't say they're morons. I said the public perceives them as such.
Now that's real convenient....NOT! I agree with your rant on the 5 changing into a 2 but let the A train C/R thing go, its not worth getting angry over.
As far as the C/R on the 2 who changed the R142 to 5, he/she probably felt it was easier to do. I remember the GOs when the 2 would run up the Lex and every East Side stop, I have the external speakers on. I would clearly state that is a #2 train making all 5 Lexington stops. There is no 5 service, please use this train to....... Still, the pax come up and ask if the 4/5 is running. This delays you and your train now because some people still dont understand that the 2/5 runs together in the Bx and Bklyn and interchange lines. Now with the updated annoucementd transfer R142s on the 5 line, you can program it to say:
5: 7AV EXPRESS
or
2: LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS
Unfortunately, the #2 R142 has yet to recieve any new updates transfer annoucements on their trains.
Da Beastmaster
I use to try the same thing during my brief time on the #2 Line. I would program it as a # 5 Lex Ave EXP to Neried.
What's wrong with just saying "Change here for other trains to Elsewhere!"
I will be in downtown Atlanta in 3 weeks, and I plan to visit the Martin Luther King Jr. historical sites there. Does MARTA rail have stations near these sites?
Yes, the closest one is, appropriately, King Memorial on the East Line. Walk north about 2-3 blocks on Grant Ave and then when you hit Auburn Ave, turn right and you'll be in the Sweet Auburn Nieghborhood and you'll see the MLK Vistor Center, Memorial, and the the rest, it's all right there. If you want to, you can walk west down either Auburn Ave or Edgewood Ave to Downtown for a nice stroll.
Make sure you see the great view of the skyline from the train when you are between Georgia State station and King Memorial, it's one of my favorite views of the city.
Brighton Beach Bound Q service was disrupted from about 5:30 PM until about 6 PM, by a fallen tree on the S/B Q tracks just north of Kings Highway. Work crews were busy with chain saws and cleared the tracks of the tree. It was windy and cold out there and the workers and police did a great job.
I was on a Q local that eventually ran express into Kings Highway. I got off there and shot some video of the crews finishing off the job.
When I got on the first local that came through, I was surprised to see the carsign:
Stand clear of
falling trees,
mad dogs, and
closing train doors.
Dang! If only there were one more slot in the computer, it could have also displayed the final slide, "Burma Shave." :)
Here's a shot of the crews working on the tree. I think there was some concern that the tree might have damaged the cables hanging from the trees.
Stand clear of the falling trees
I was on a slant, we got to Prospect park over 30 minutes late. We get the lineup for local but have holding lights. Over the PA were are instructed to go to Beverly and to contact Brighton Beach but the C/R would not close down dispite the pleading of the T/O.
Then off we go and the C/R moves to the other car thinking we are going to Church, needless to say the train stops at Prospect Park, C/R comes back and asks over PA if we are stopping (duh). T/O gives two buzzes.
We then go local all the way to Newkirk where there are four buzzes and the C/R walks foward. (We were 30minutes late at Prospect, now we are near 45minutes late).
A local Q pulles up on the express, we cross over and pass a Q local at EVERY local stop, we near Kings Hwy and slow as the T/O sounds off. We stop and crawl pass the crew cutting trees. The tree was in the cables that run next to the right of way (Signal Cables?).
A police officer was at the end of the platform keeping people away for 10 feet or so.
PA annoucements were stating NO Brighton Service, take the B68 on Coney Is. Ave or the Flatbush Ave bus (forget the number).
They were still stating that as the next Q pulled in on the express track.
Lou... I was on the front of the local Q that picked you up at Newkirk... How did you like the PA system at Kings Highway??.. It was on constantly and sounded like a chain saw was being piped into the mike... Up until Newkirk, all they kept announcing was that there was an "incident" at Kings Highway...
"Up until Newkirk, all they kept announcing was that there was an "incident" at Kings Highway... "
Would you rather we say nothing at all??????
I think the problem at Kings Hwy with the PA was that two differnt people were trying to make annoucemnts at the same time.
At least it was cleaned up very quickly and service wasn't disrupted too badly. Another good thing about the Q, a disruption is cleared quickly USUALLY.
Falling trees and mad dogs,oooh, that sounds like Sea Cliff! :-0
Even got treated to a power outage tonight because of a falling tree.
The NWS has high winds in the forecast through the first half of tomorrow, so dont be suprised to see more of this!
Add some Englishmen and you'll have something by Noel Coward. Or is it Joe Cocker?
Noel Coward
"In Bangkok at twwelve o'clock they foam at the mouth and run,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun!"
So there are Thai foamers..... (8-)
Work crews with chain saws were there? Any sign of Mark W.?
The way you always talk about me makes me think u are obsessed with me. Back off. I'm not your type.
What? I don't go that route, Mark -- sorry to disappoint you.
The reference of you with a chainsaw is an old heypaul joke about you giving tours on the old LIRR Rockaway branch and all the foliage that abounds there (i.e. it needs to be cut down with a chainsaw)...obviously, the rouse was lost on you...
Sorry, I'm not like your buddies at the Red Caboose ;)
I hope heypaul isn't looking for a job writing headlines for the New York Post.
Nah, if that was the case, the headline would have been
WHACKO TREE ON RAMPAGE TERRORIZES SUBWAY
I used that title because I was shocked when I saw the car card after watching them cut apart the tree. I didn't make the message up. I guess it was in the style of some of Randy Kennedy's article titles.
Stand clear of falling trees, mad dogs, and closing doors
I was on a CI-bound W train last October 12 that encountered a fallen tree branch just before 9th Ave. We sat for at least 15 minutes until a couple of TA workers came and cut the branch off. Even with the nonstop Sea Beach express run coming back, it still took nearly an hour to get back to Union Square.
Beacuse Fred was with you complaining you took the W not the N
Actually Fred wasn't with me. I told him in advance I'd be doing the W before we were to meet for Mass and he was cool with that. Well, thanks to that fallen branch, I was 20 minutes late and the priest was halfway through his homily by the time I showed up. I met Fred in the church vestibule after Mass and we headed to dinner in Little Italy - on a Q, of course.
I should have changed to a Q at DeKalb on the way back to Manhattan...
Well to all of you I know,and those of you who know of me.I never meant to be a jerk or anything like that but I was passinate bout my job as a T/O and C/R.Today was my last day with MTA RTO I have officialy resigned ,and have been hired by New Jersey Path.After 16 years of service I am sad and happy,Happy to get away from all the crap ,horrible T/D's,Murphy Tower,and Off the street buffs who sware the railroad wont run without them.LOL nah I take that back they were always good for a Laugh LOL.I will miss alot of people and Cleaners "WINK WINK " (SubBUs).So Monday I start with path and will keep you posted on how that goes.
Congrats, guy! Another one goes down the PATH of righteousness. :)
good luck with the new job. welcome to new jersey.
As a daily rider of PATH all I can say is:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
How do they clean the readers for metrocards
Since i frequently run into trouble, I was thinking of possibly getting the right supplies, and trying to clean some myself
I've seen them use special cards which seems to be dipped in a solution.
It is a white felt card wich is soaked in alcohol. In some booths agents have bottles of rubbing alcohol in case the cleaning cards are dry. Sometimes agents use the alcohol to make the cards very wet. Sometimes it'll get more dirt out. Outside of some people not knowing how to swipe a card, dirty readers are the main reason why metrocards don't work.
Now you guyz know why i didn't switch over to revenue with 21 years of experience in coin recognition, note recognition and change machine operation. Too many people monkeying around destroying equipment with a lot of money at stake. CI peter
With the state quarters I for one have to look at all the quarter sized coins that come in the window. The back of the Delaware quarter looks like the French Franc coin.
As far as the bills, I keep a sharp eye out for phony $20 bills. Anything else, I just try to push it out to the next customer.
The closest I come to change machine operation is look quick at the small coins people push at me and count fast.
Other than that, If I see someone hanging around a MVM a little too long, I call downtown.
If they're using "rubbing" alcohol then they are making things
worse. Rubbing alcohol containings lubricants and moisturizers
intended for its primary purpose: rubbing on the skin. These
ingredients will leave a residue on the magnetic heads which
will attract and retain dust. Magnetic heads should only
be cleaned with a pure alcohol (e.g. isopropyl).
I've noticed that at certain fare control areas where passenger
traffic enters from one direction, I am much more likely
to get a SWIPE AGAIN failure at the turnstiles closest to
the entrance, i.e. those which get the most use.
The TA has a supply of pre-soaked cards that come in a sealed envelope. They are issued to Station Agents, Bus Drivers & CES staff at the Woodside O/H facility. We have some at this depot too.
MOIST TOWELETTES?!?!?! How *civilised!* :)
You hold them with the ends of you fingers with the pinky raised. Some even use them to floss < g >
Heh. I guess it beats the alternative, pulling hot moist towels through them with tongs. :)
Bus Drivers are not suppled with them. It is not part of our job to clean the F/B, it is the F/B mantaners job. All the B/O is required to do is to write the F/B up if it starts to give trouble with the M/C. As for me I got some from the Station Agents to pevent from having trouble with the F/B when I have driver. It would make day go faster if the F/B was working right and the cards went thought right away.
Robert
Make sure you use the TBT cards instead of the Head cards.
Gee, that's a surprise, as I had heard they were issued to TA drivers.
"Private" drivers don't get them ... a union issue :-( but most of the Inspector's supervisors have them ... that's better then the gum rappers that they used to use to wrap around the blown fuses ... yes we had one or two that did it & almost burned up a farebox. I told him we appreciated his dedication, but didn't need THAT kind of help.
Begs the off-topic question: Your handle describes you
as a T/O?
The bottles of rubbing alcohol I see in the booth state that it is isopropyl alcohol.
I think they use Q-tip swabs treated with a solvent...
The maintainers have the Q-tips. The agents in the field have white felt cards soaked in solution.
>>> I was thinking of possibly getting the right supplies, and trying to clean some myself <<<
A really bad idea – unless you also want to see if a real police station looks like the ones on "NYPD Blue."
Tom
What regulation do you think it violates?
There's no fraud, no tampering with the equipment.
I can see it resulting in a not very friendly inquiry by a police officer though.
If you are not authorized to clean the equipment then by doing so you are tampering with it (regardless of what you intentions are).
Actully they kind of do look like the ones on TV, well worn!
Echoing Old Tom, don't try cleaning the turnstile yourself.
If the machines keeps saying "swipe again", bother the Station Agent.
They'll either clean the R/W Head or shut it down.
Meanwhile, take a look at your own card. If it's dirty run it under warm water & use soap & a cloth or tooth brush. If it's got a scratch or bend in it & has given you trouble in the turnstile of bus farebox ask the Station Agent, very nicely, to move the money to a new card. But if it's a unlimited, "deal with it" until it expires :-(
Its a Student unlimited, and it only doent work at the standard turnstiles at chambers street, I have no trouble when the HEETs are working. I have asked the S/A to let me in, but she wont, saying that my card is too damaged. The card is a bit work in places, but i works perfectly at all stations except Chambers ACE, and Grand central
If the card is damaged, get it replaced. Unless you enjoy asking the agent in the booth several times a day.
It only doesnt work at chambers station, indicating that a turnstile, and not my card is the problem.
The chambers st station agents dont really seem to get along. After trying to get in at the north booth, I went to the agent, She told me that I should try again, and I did. after that, she told me to get a new card, and that she had told me 5 times before(really only once)she said it again, and then i tried for a third time. it said "just used". so I go the the middle turnstile area. i tell the station agent there, and she tells me to call the cops. after telling her that i just want to go home, she let me in.
it really doesnt make a difference now, being as the card will only work for the 35 minutes following this post
you have a student pass?
After friday you should have a new student pass. Try to keep it undamaged if at all possible.
I've seen a few at this depot in pritty bad shape. Like Rodney Dangerfield says, the kids give them no respect !
Back in my day, it was "Bus passes" that were issued monthly. To get the covetted "train pass" you had to be commuting from San Diego. :)
And those looked like hell in no time in the wallet along with that metallic-foil covered square whose internal round object was wearing through the edges from complete "no hope" of ever being used, but you left it in the wallet anyway in HOPES that you might actually use it (know whut I meen?) ... I'm convinced that the red foil square package with the picture of a Greek warrior along with "water tested on our special machines" (man, wouldn't you pay out the wazoo to have railfanned that factory in Piscataway, NJ there at "Young's Drug Products" corp?) was the cause of destruction of bus passes.
I can only IMAGINE how munched those cards must look these'a'days. :)
Yes, we got out of the monthly pass business, thank God, but it seems most kids have trouble with there MC versions now, mainly because of how long they have to use until the next one is issued to them.
And no trade-ins I s'pose?
If you lose one you can get a new one the next day.
And since the old card takes a few days to get cancelled, there is no loss in asking for a new one.
That policy may have changed however.
nope you ask for a new one and they hand you a new one and they tell you
"bye"
after that they call in and deactivate your old one
But, it can take a while for the old one to die everywhere.
First someone has to update the "negitive" list, then it's got to get downloaded to every subway station & bus depot,
THEN ever bus has to come back to the depot for a probe to get the farebox up to speed.
today was...well just a great day,but after school today something
caught my eye,i was at the euclid av station,as i got on R32#3934 i was looking at the black flooring,then i saw the rollsigns with the handturners(turn the rollsign via hand)i,d never thoght i would see
those things on the IND(sure on the IRT,but never the IND)on the R32,s
i would see the rollsigns that would be turned by crank,these rollsigns could be turned by hand,i turned the rollsign,s and here some of the stops they had on the rollsign,s:
1.FAR ROCKAWAY
2.LEFFERTS BLVD,QUEENS
3.JFK AIRPORT
4.JAMAICA CENTER
5.kew gardens,union tpke
6.JAMAICA CENTER,179 st
7.rockaway blvd
8.crescent st
9.myrtle av
10.essex st manhattan
11.utica av(i think)
12.smith-9 sts
13.HOYT-SCHERMERHORN
14.PACIFIC ST(I THINK)
15.JAY ST BOROUGH HALL
16.WORLD TRADE CENTER
17.2 AVENUE
18.WHITEHALL ST
19.34 ST 6 AV MANHATTAN
20.34 ST 8 AV MANHATTAN
21.57 ST 7 AV MANHATTAN
22.B,WAY LAFAYETTE ST
23.W 4 ST(I THINK)
24.95 ST BROOKLNY
25.KINGS HWY BROOKLNY
26.18 AV MCDONALD AV
27.EASTERN PKWY
28.EUCLID AV
this is car #3934,anybody ever been on this car?and am i right about some of the stops or all?
i,ve been on the R42 many times,today i was on car 4746,it had the black flooring:)i was thinking about the R42 rollsign,s.i think those rollsign have same stops i listed.and i know they are signed for the
J,M,Z and L and they still have the K on em,but what other letters do
the R42 have,i think there also signed for the V line too.
I remembered the Redbirds weren't the only Subway cars the you can change the destination by turning the hand lever. I think all of the R32's use to have them, until they change them to be crank operated. Some of the older Subtalkers might know more about this.
Yes, all R32/38 cars had the knobs, which were removed during GOH for obvious reasons.
The R40/42 didn't. They had one piece rollsigns (which limited the possibilities of service they could show) which needed the same crank tool that's needed today to change them.
I think R32 3811 still has the knobs too. Haven't been on it in a while so I will have to see for myself.
You'll find a couple of cars on the E with the hand turners.Of course none of them displayed the proper destination when I was on them, and I wonder why ;) dang school kids...
I once saw a 32 on the N with South terminal being "Howard Beach JFK Airport" I didn't go inside so I don't know if that 32 had knobs or not.
Well, to make up for that, one recent weekend I saw a Howard Beach-bound R-38 A train signed consistently for Kings Highway.
On a R38 A recently, I saw these destinations.
NORTH TERMINAL
GRAND ST
C 8 AV/FULTON
And no I'm serious, I was laughing my ass off when I saw that 8-).
On the R32 and R38 rollsigns, there is a "North Terminal" and "South Terminal". Though rarely used, it is useful when the train terminates at a station (usually due to a G.O.) that is not identified on the rollsign OR the two points the train is traveling between are on the same rollsign, and the other cannot be used.
But many times this happens, they use "Special" on the rollsign as identification, as they have been doing this practice for decades.
I know that but its the signs that was on that A train, Grand St come on, pure delinquency ;-). Saw it on the L train shuttle bus GO on Sunday rollsigns were like this:
8 AVENUE, MANHATTAN
SOUTH TERMINAL
The south terminal was Lorimer St, obviously there was no Lorimer St on the R42 rollsign. On the R143's, they had Bedford Av as its destination.
Something that would be interesting, the rollsigns saying North Terminal and South Terminal, no route and the announcements are garbled boy would people panic ;-).
Forgot the car # but on the 2nd car from the south end of a Q diamond train, it had "Union Tpk, Kew Gdns" as the rollsign. I saw that yesterday evening, so it's the 2nd car of a southbound train. Looked really wrinkled up too.
Once on the Q a few years ago [on a R40], I saw the blue K and partially showing the G train bullet as well instead of the orange Q.
My favorite sighting:
nice pics:)
til next time
Cool pics, David. Eastern Pkwy, Crescent St, yellow B now that's something to laugh about 8-). From what I see, its probably a N train for real.
Hmm... don't matter what train, with that short of a run I wanna know what job that is and how the guy got it ;)
yeha,i know,i never thoght they would have at least some of the stops i listed.
til next time
i think some of the R32 have crank-turned rollsigns as the hand-turned
rollsigns were removed during GOH.
til next time
The hand cranks were removed during GOH. Either some were missed, or subsequently a few sign boxes were replaced with leftovers from some other car class(es) that still had their hand cranks.
David
As far as I know, three R32 cars still have hand cranks. R32 #3381 is one of them. I can't recall the #s of the other two. Also, some of the Redbirds on the Flushing Line still have their handcranks too.
I actually never paid attention to that on 3934. I'm not sure if the R42's have the V though, probably do from the GOH. The R42 rollsigns have just about every route sign including the H & K but NOT the letters like P and X.
I know the R32 rollsigns; the old ones from the GOH have practically all letter route rollsigns except W *I THINK*. They even have bullets like P, U, X etc but its a white bullet, black letter.
BTW, I rode that car [3934] quite a few times on the A; I'll look out for that.
I know the R32 rollsigns; the old ones from the GOH have practically all letter route rollsigns except W *I THINK*.
It's there, but only in a diamond, and with no reference to the West End line:
you put up some good subway pics,maybe i can send ya some of mine soon
i once rode the R32 on the W line,it was a cool ride.
til next time
That's interesting. Well that's all the proof I needed.
today i got on R32#3934,i geuss it,s on a daliy basis,i see at the
euclid av station like around 2:48 after school on the c line,anyway
here are some more stops i found:
1.south terminal
2.franklin av
3.168 st,manhattan
4.207 st inwood,manhattan
5.prospect park
6.botanic garden(i think)
i think they also have these stops too.
til next time
Oh wow!! I just came across this article describing the awarding of a $7000 grant to an assistant professor in Florida to do a project entitled:
Genetic Transit History: A Public Interactive Artist's Installation Engaging NYC Public Transit, The Human Genome Project and Innovation and Innovative Use of the World Wide Web.
Genetic Transit History
Boy, if he could get $7000 to do God knows what, then I should put in for a $20,000 grant to photograph the rat population along the Broadway BMT line.
"Lawrence takes a map of human DNA and overlaps it onto a map of the N line of the New York City subway."
I love it ... between this and your rats there, Unca Fred's going to have a canary. :)
I wonder if Unca Fred's DNA and the track diagram of the N train are one and the same. Anyone ever check?
--Mark
There is a DNA match between the N train and Fred, their offspring is called Sea-Beach
Yow! Now THERE'S a scary thought. Maybe it's actually a rat? :)
I wonder what they would grant for a study on:
NYC Railfans - Foamers or Genetic Artists
This makes me mad. There are real working artists out there (not just in NYC) who deserve money and attention on the Web, who could use the subway (and the map) as a medium, and who aren't sitting on their butts at schools writing grants. Also artists who are working hard studying genetics. And their whole reputation is being wrecked by put-ons like this flip son of a .... GRRRRRRRRR.........
So I have a friend who vehemently argues with me that ...
1) St. Louis Car makes the worst trains
2) The Slant is the worse train ever
3) Any train without the door tones sucks
He told me today that someone's jacket got stuck in doors, causing door problems on a Diamond Q which resulted in a 30 minute delay in service. He then uses that to back up his argument that the Slant is the worse train ever.
What are your thoughts about the Slant? Did it have a shoddy maintenance record when it was first introduced in service?
I've always hated the slants riding them anyway. When starting them out of a station they give a hard bucking like the R40M, and the R42. Yes, I think the GOH done by Sumitomo in 1988 gave the R40S a better interior amongst other things, but overall, they stink as well as leak water inside when it rains.
They may be pretty speedy through the 60 ST Tunnel but I do have to say that their time is near. They're "duct taped" on the roofs so what does that tell you?
R32 Budd's are the best of shape among the cars without chimes.
#3531 R Broadway Local
You think the duct tape is bad, when it leaks forget about it, its a puddle sometimes and seats are lost however R38 roofs are worse to me though they have duct tape AND brown superglue. But the 40's have great A/C, the one of a kind RFW and nice windows.
Don't you love exaggerations like that?
St. Louis Car and Foundry did some very nice work over the years. So did American Car and Foundry. They're gone now, along with Budd (the railcar side of Budd, that is). So the argument is moot.
If only you could shed the same insight to my friend. To him, if one thing happens on a certain car class, then it means the whole car class is crap. I told him stuff like that happens on other trains (once saw a 32 on the E depart from station while a part of some guy's jacket was protruding from in between the doors) but still couldn't get him to change his mind.
Hypocritically, he sort of likes the R44 (just because its 75' and it has doortones) even though it was manufactured by St. Louis Car.
More craziness, he doesn't see the point of people crossing in between trains, and feels storm doors should be locked. He brought up how a very young child died on a Slant after the storm door went open as the train was navigating through a cruve and he fell out. Of course, I suppose he would advocate to keep storm doors open if there was a mugger or killer causing trouble and he (my friend) would have no means of escape since the storm doors would be locked in his ideal train.
In terms of problems, the R-40s difficulties were due to the design concept, which was not done by St. Louis Car -- they simply built what they were given, and then modified it for the final 100 R-40s when the flaws became apparent. Back when they were first delivered, the 100 AC Slants certainly weren't considered terrible during the summertime, though the 200 non-ACed Slants were ovens due in part to the modified axleflow fan design, which only served to demonstrate how much soot could be blown onto the celings of the cars.
You can knock the company for not building the R-38 through R-44 classes completely with stainless steel, but again, NYCTA and the MTA didn't demand it in the bid specs. Overall, the company's product during the 1950s and 1960s was unspectacular, but reliable until the lack of preventive maintenance got to the entire fleet by the late 70s. The R-44 was more flawed on delivery, which helped kill St. Louis Car, and of course the R-46 was built by Pullman-Standard with the Rockwell trucks, which almost created the first "low rider" fleet in subway history.
The slants also have slightly reduced capacity because of, well, the slant. The slants and the R40-M also have the worst shaped seats in the fleet, at least as far as I am concerned. The top of the seat back hits me in the middle of the back. The R42 is much more comfortable.
I don't know, off the top of my head, if the mechanicals are any worse on the slants than any other car of that era. It is the TA's fault that they are not all stainless steel. And, the TA didn't add door chimes during the overhaul, which could have been done.
The slants' seating capacity (44) is slightly reduced compared to the R-32/38 class (50), but are the same as the non-slanted R-40M/R-42 cars. The rounded bonnets on the modified slants and the R-42s take up as much space horizontally as the slanted bonnet; the difference is at the top of the bonnet, where the original R-40 design is closer to the car. As for the seats on the slant and modified 40s, yea, they really suck unless you're about age 8 and under or have a growth hormone problem.
BTW -- Does anyone know what the seating capacity for the R-143s is?
>>>BTW -- Does anyone know what the seating capacity for the R-143s is? <<<
"A" cars are 42
"B" cars are 44
source: Kawasaki Heavy Industries
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
They make a great place to put duct tape!!
Given what I've seen, I'm surprised they don't have tape dispensers in the cabs. :)
"More craziness, he doesn't see the point of people crossing in between trains, and feels storm doors should be locked."
I think so too. That isn't crazy. That would reduce injuries.
"Of course, I suppose he would advocate to keep storm doors open if there was a mugger or killer causing trouble and he (my friend) would have no means of escape since the storm doors would be locked in his ideal train."
That reflects an exaggerated fear of crime. The subways are quite safe - safer than the streets, statistically, and the benefit of an open storm door is quite marginal most of the time (not all transit systems have open storm doors).
It's a little like arguing that you shouldn't wear seatbelts because "what if I need to be thrown clear of a burning auto?" 99.9% of the time it's something else that's going to kill you.
My favorites from each builder:
St. Louis: R-36 (the "Deluxe" World's Fair variant)
Budd: Metro-North/PC M-2
Pullman: NJT Comet I
Also
Bombardier: R-62A (singles)
Kawasaki: SEPTA SE car & R-68A
Wow a thirty minute delay? There's a conductor that's going to be seeing a bit of platform duty.
Not many things short of a 12-9 or a signal problem cause sthat kind of delay. And definitely not doors.
"He told me today that someone's jacket got stuck in doors, causing door problems on a Diamond Q which resulted in a 30 minute delay in service."
Tell your friend that a tree fell on the s/b track north of King's Highway.
The slants ROCK! Sure they are duct taped together. But who cares? They are fast, sleek, and have awesome railfan windows!
Take Pride,
Brian
Little kids like them because they don't have to be so tall to look out.
I'm a big kid and I love to look out the window of an R-40!
-Stef
Yes, kids of ALL ages love the slants!
Take Pride,
Brian
Kids of ALL ages love the railfan window! Of course, your handle explains it all..........
You figured me out! How'd ya do it ;)
Take Pride,
Brian
It was so simple ;-).
I'll take whatever railfan window I can get, but the R-40 window is somewhat of a tight squeeze for two adults, while other railfan windows are wider. The best for the second railfan is a Redbird, since on other cars the handrails are out of reach. (The first railfan uses the door handle, of course, assuming it's locked.)
So am I. But I defer when children want to look out the window.
As for the slants and reliability. On the Q, I have never seen a slant go out of service in the past few years. I have been on a few r68 with problems on the local.
The slants sometimes have problems with the doors completly closing due to the rubber tong and groove not linig up, I have on a few occasions saved a train from going out of service by getting out of my seat and giving the door a little loving push to allow the grooves to line up
#4415 did that at Broadway Junction a few years back; the C/R got out, found the pesky door, gave it a kick and they went on their way.
wayne
The biggest problem with the R40 slants are the doors, a train was taken out of service at Newkirk Ave, northbound the last trip on the Q diamond for the night. I did try to help the C/R in searching for the "tiny gap" on one of the four doors and tried to close it. But to no avail, we were unsuccessful and Command ordered the C/R to take the train out of service.
Amen. The Slants rock. It's too bad the futuristic look is marred by those gates the MTA added. Eww.
I truly don't understand why they are so much hated. I loved the R40s from the days of service on the "E" and "F". They have a fast, smooth and quiet ride for a 1960's era car. All I know is that they saved the "A" train in 1977 from the R10s and in my opinion, the best car that ever served the "A" from 1977 until today.
The R40s to me were one of the best GOH jobs during the 1980's and 1990's. With the exception of the R38s and the 10 GE R32s, the rebuilt interiors of the R40 slants set the tone for the R32s, R40Ms and R42s.
The R40s would be one of the best looking cars in the system if the TA would do something with that damn tape and those scratched up windows. I think it is disgusting that after all that time and money, that the TA would run the R40s in that condition.
By the way, does anybody know why the R40s were taken off the "A" in 1985?
The slant makes it the ugliest train in the system
It was actually *VERY* 1960's (when it was designed) ... look at BART and toher systems of the design time, and it was "de rigeur" as a design concept - "sloped cabinets" in electronics, wedges for reailty, shoes for industry. The 'bulbous shapes' of OUR time will prove to be a similar design embarassment in the 2030's. :)
The cockpit of the "Heart of Gold", the spaceship run by the Infinite Improbability Engine in Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (the definitive send-up of EVERYTHING) from just after then, was "excitingly chunky." Thank god Thunderbird came out with its dolphin and put and end to all that.
Heh. Nothing typified the 60's design concept better than Fireball XL-5 and "Thunderbirds are go" ... Glad the pharmaceutical industry came up with better drugs since. :)
Don't tell me you actually used the word "groovy" back then.:)
Heh. Nah, those were back in the days of the mesh trashcans on the sidewalks of New York and whenever I heard "groovy" the person uttering the words would end up sitting in one. :)
But "kewl" was in wide use, as well as "bro" ...
Not to mention, "peace".
"The slant makes it the ugliest train in the system"
For a late 60's design, the R-40 slant isn't really that ugly.
The ugliness comes in when they added pantograph gates and other metal to make that dangerous gap safer.
Bill "Newkirk"
I really DON'T care if the R40 slants are ugly, I've seen worse, like the Rust-birds in their last days of service, or the dirty R142A cars on the #4 line, (has Concourse Yard ever heard of car washing?).
All I care about the R40 slants are three things: speed, reliability, and a working A/C. The R40 slants do a terrific job at all 3 criteria mentioned.
"or the dirty R142A cars on the #4 line, (has Concourse Yard ever heard of car washing?)."
The #4 line comes out of Mosholu Yard, which is adjacent to Concourse Yard. Concourse Yard is home to the B/D lines.
Da Beastmaster
I am not familiar with any of the current equipment, but based on the pictures I have seen, the slants would probably be my favorite model if I still lived there.
R40 has numerous shortcomings. The seats are terrible, they leak, the a/c drips in humid weather, they have no grab irons between blind ends, they are UGLY beyond belief, yada yada yada, &c. &c. &c. Then why on earth are some people (myself included) so smitten with them? Well, for one, they ARE fast, they do have a unique (though UGLY) look to them, and their railfan window can't be beat. I guess I could call them a sentimental favorite. I for one will be very sorry to see them go; I give them five years at the most, probably less if the R160/160A is ordered.
wayne
I'll be wearing a black armband when that day comes. The slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s on the A, that's for sure.
1) St. Louis Car makes the worst trains
Going by the current fleet, their track record is iffy: R29, R33ML, R33S, R36ML, R36WF, R38, R40S, R40M, R42, R44. All of them are iffy quality, and some are just bad. But how much is the company and how much was the TA's specs, deferred maitnance, and other variables? Not one of them is stainless steel, but that was the TA's decision. However, I don't know about the defferred maintnance excuse. The R32s and R46s lived through this era too, and they're in decent shape.
2) The Slant is the worst train ever
I'd take a slant over a redbird anyday. The seats aren't comfotable, but the air conditioning works, at least post-GOH. The look of it is far from beautiful, but it is unique. I guess "funky" is the best adjective for them.
3) Any train without the door tones sucks
Now that's just silly. The door chime is a good thing, but I don't think a train lives or dies by it.
:-) Andrew
Going by the current fleet, their track record is iffy: R29, R33ML, R33S, R36ML, R36WF, R38, R40S, R40M, R42, R44. All of them are iffy quality, and some are just bad.
Iffy quality? Just bad? Aside from the R-44, which has always had problems, and a questionable design for the R-40, I've seen no evidence of iffy quality in any of these products. They're all at least 30 years old, and they've aged, but that's to be expected.
I'd take a slant over a redbird anyday. The seats aren't comfotable, but the air conditioning works, at least post-GOH.
The air conditioning works on most mainline Redbirds. It's only the Corona cars that seem to have trouble.
Remember that these cars, as with most of the fleet produced by St. Louis Car, lived through the deferred maintenance days of the 1970s. Considering how well they have held up after that, I wouldn't call their performance shoddy at all.
--Mark
WHAT? The only thing that was really wrong with the slants was the slope of the nose, then it had to get pantographs taking the futuristic design away. The slants have the best A/C in the system IMO [I enjoy it on the Q express in the summer].
1. St Louis was a GOOD company
2. The slant was NOT the worst car ever made
3. Well he's saying that every train before the R44 sucks
Your friend is NO Railfan it looks like and the person don't know what they are talking about! I think the slants are wonderful; excellent RFW, large windows, excellent A/C; although the seats could of been a little higher.
He claims to be one, but considering how he asked me about the "BMD" line (he meant BMT), I think he's probably a rookie railfan. If not, he still has some work to do, as he occassionally confuses car classes.
Noormally, the cash fare on the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority is $1 (transfers are free).
On days when there is a smog alert, KC Transit reduces its fare to 25 cents to encourage ridership.
My guess is that strategy is more relevants to cities without heavy transit utilization.
I bet SEPTA could attract more riders to me lightly used portions of its system with this strategy.
Miami should try this.
Does LA MTA do it?
"Does LA MTA do it?" No, it doesn't, but it's an intriguing idea. Los Angeles and Houston are in contention for having the filthiest air in the nation.
"My guess is that strategy is more relevant to cities without heavy transit utilization." Actually, Los Angeles, despite its reputation as an auto city, does have reasonable transit utilization, thanks in large part to a large immigrant population. Its buses have the "heaviest load factor" among large U.S. cities. That's another way of saying its buses are the most overcrowded.
Yeah, that's true - especially in the poorer sections of town (where buses don't run often enough...)
>>> Noormally, the cash fare on the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority is $1 (transfers are free). On days when there is a smog alert, KC Transit reduces its fare to 25 cents to encourage ridership. <<<
I doubt that it is a very effective in the economic sense. How much does the typical automobile commute cost in that area? $4.00 per day? (Not counting ownership costs). Therefore the typical commuter is willing to pay an extra $2.00 over the cost of public transportation for the perceived advantage of driving. An extra $1.50 savings every so often at unpredictable intervals is not likely to change the pattern.
I think if there is any significant rise in bus ridership on cheap smog days it is in extra rides by those who would not have traveled at all, and those drivers whose attention to the seriousness of the smog alert is enhanced by the fact that the bus company is lowering fares, and therefore takes the bus because he wants to cut down smog, rather than to save money. This latter group could be switched to public transportation by they mayor calling for reduced use of cars without any price reduction.
Tom
You make some good points.
Gas prices here of late have had near $1.60 a gallon for regular gas (87 octane). How are they doing out in LA?
>>> Gas prices here of late have had near $1.60 a gallon for regular gas (87 octane). How are they doing out in LA? <<<
About the same.
Tom
I recently found myself in need of some ridership numbers for SEPTA and found their website, as with SEPTA in general, severly lacking.
Other transit agencies put at least something there for people to read but not SEPTA.
I did a Google search for anything current but could only find data up to 1996 and it didn't have the numbers I was looking for (specifically, CTD bus and rail).
Does anyone here know where I could look?
This might be a question for Michalovic --
Did anybody ask why a metro rail company named itself something that implies that it needs to be swabbed down? I'm not being snide here -- a good PR company would have said, call it SEPHA or STEPA or *something* that doesn't have that, uh, flavor to it.
I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but SEPTA is known for being secretive, sometimes deliberately and other times out of a sheer failure to grasp the value of pubic relations.
As for their name, I have some friends who spent a summer here in Philly. They weren't impressed by the cleanliness of the trains, so they carried a bottle of hand sanitizer with them, and they labeled it "anti-SEPTA-ic."
(What's more the name is plural, the plural of septum, meaning a rubber bottle stopper that you can easily put a needle through.)
Mark
yeeeEEEEEsh.
But it doesn't make sense. Most other large transit angencies share at least dated information with the public.
We're not so special here in Philadelphia, so what gives?
Who's up for a ride on the 5:31 AM "C" train sb out of 96th St Wednesday morning? I am. See ya there.
Take Pride,
Brian
I'm up..... but what was the reason?
I just have a feeling that the 5:31 AM is one cool train. Just kidding. I have to go to work early today.
Take Pride,
Brian
Observed in service today. Assigned to #5 Service, the set made an appearance on the 7th Av Exp this afternoon.
-Stef
Stef:
Got it and confirmed independently. That's Train #33 of 37.
Nice job!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
370 Cars? I thought the 5 would get a 400 car alotment as the 2 already has.
-Stef
Stef:
Maybe for a little while, but ultimately that would only leave 230 for the 4. They need to replace the equivalent of 315 (320) R-62s.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You forgot about the R142A's. Or are the R142A's including in this count of 230?
Da Beastmaster
SubBus:
The 70 R-142As have already replaced most of the R-33s. The ultimate fleet plan for 4 is 290 R-142s, 70 R-142As and 45 R-62As, plus 10 for the GC Shuttle. That's 405 total. Mighty tight, considering its had around 420 cars for some time now. Reducing 4 to 230 R-142s makes it impossible to meet schedules as presently constituted...unless the Redbirds stay around, or service is cut.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The numbers don't seem to add up.
There were originally 1,410 R26 thru R36. Most were still in service as of 1999.
There will be a total of 1,550 R142/142a.
That is in increase of at least 140 cars, probably a bit more figuring that some Redbirds died pre 1999.
Why will there be a car shortage?
Because schedules right now take advantage of the current fleet, which, at least on the 4 and perhaps overall, is larger now than it will be after the last Redbirds are retired.
That still soes not make sense.
For example, there are 31 #2 trains in the rush hour. With 400 cars assigned to that line, that leaves 90 spares. That is over 20% spares. I think they are not getting the availibility from the R142 fleet that they were getting from the Redbirds, thus the car shortage.
While on this topic, does anyone know the maximum car requirements for all of the IRT lines?
On the R142 page on the website right, it is said that R142s 7131-7180 will go to the 4 line. What about 7731-7850? Are they going to the 3 line?
Probably 7731-7850 (120 cars) will also go to the 4. 7131-80 is only 50 cars and 7661-7730 (R142As) is 70 cars. I doubt the 3 will get any R142s or R142As. If I'm not mistaken, the 3 is to get the 4's R62s and the 4 is to become all R142s/R142As.
7731-7850 will become 1101-1220, and 7181-7210 are to become 1221-1250.
I am unsure of the status of 7131-80, but a few of these could be used to fill in #5 service until all remaining lower numbered R-142s (6800, 6900 series) are finally delivered.
-Stef
Interesting info... Personally, I'd like to know if the 1 may receive any in the near future.
Doesn't seem likely at this point, but it doesn't mean that it won't be the case... Car assignments are subject to change.
-Stef
"7731-7850 will become 1101-1220, and 7181-7210 are to become 1221-1250"
I still can't get over not using the 7000 series numbers and using the 1100 and 1200 numbers. Didn't someone on this board say the reason for the number switch is due to the R-160 numbers series ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I hate when they fragment the number series like that (both on buses and subway cars).
They had supposedly renumbered the R-44/46 class to make way for the cars coming in now. They should have just left those alone, continue the R-68A as 3001-3200, the 110's as 32 or low 3300's; then they would have had 5000 up for the R142-160 class.
Sorry no R142's or R142A's going to the 3 Line, maybe in the near future.
-R143 AcelaExpress
Amtrak Modleing Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
The projected allocations from 2000:
6301-6670 on 2 (370)=>6301-6700 are there now.
6671-7040 on 5 (370)=>330 are there now, including 7121-7130.
7041-7210, 7731-7850 on 3 (290)=>Change 7181-7210 to 1221-1250, 7731-7850 to 1101-1220 and 3 to 4.
When? How??
WHO KNOWS???
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
at least two but maybe upto 4 FL-9AC starships were put back in service after a mishap(kiss) with two Genesis cut MNCW short of power.
2040/2041 were seen on train in Harmon last night. the two Genesis involved 209 and 2** are possibly heading for Erie. Pa for repairs
Yes!
I was riding on the F toward Queens the other day and was in the front car. It had a cut out in the window tint so I could see out. As we left 21st/Queensbridge toward Roosevelt, I was looking out to observe the fairly new construction. What I noticed is that right before the tracks curve to the left and come up between the Queens Blvd local/express tracks just before 36th Street, the tunnel widens out and looks like it "Could" continue straight for future stuff. Anyone know what this is? Is is a truck entrance from the street? Also as the train is turning left after this, there seems to be a short platform built into the tunnel.
Any thoughts?
Thanx all...
Danny
There is a bellmouth there. Where it was to go is anyone's guess. My guess is that it was to have been the start of the "super-express" that would have gone to Jamaica via the LIRR ROW.
I've also noticed that from 21 St to the point where the line ramps upward to the E line, there is a very wide catwalk. Maybe that is your short platform.
It's the lower lever tracks continuing on straight twoards Sunnyside.
Also that vacant lot where all of the construction vehicles were staged is directly above that point.
"It's the lower level tracks continuing on straight towards Sunnyside."
That makes sense. Does the tunnel actually continue to the Sunnyside yard? Would that be for LIRR trains to use the other unused level of the 63rd Street tunnel? Or for a possible "Super Express" subway using the LIRR right-of-way?
As I understand it the lower level would continue to Sunnyside Yard while the upper level would make a left to connect with the IND Queensboro line coming out of Queens Plaza. I have no idea how much of the lower level tunnel is actually built. The "super-express" was to have started from the subway to the ROW on the LIRR to Jamaica. If that will ever be built is doubtful. Somewhere else in subtalk I read that MTA can not run both subway and railroad on the same track or route or ROW.
Yeah, theres that whole FRA regulation thing, too bad too cause the R44s or 46s could keep pace with the LIRR's stuff. I suppose that they could do something like PATH along the NEC in New Jersey, running the subway along the outside of the LIRR main, that or else just bury the line under the LIRR main, making it subway without disturbing streets, just a ROW that the MTA already owns.
The only other solution would be for either the NYC subway to become all FRA compatible, which is laughable in and of itself, or for congress to force the FRA to update it's definition of what is compatible and what's not. Germany can run LRTs on the VERY same tracks as the ICE3, using dual mode 750VDC/15kVAC moving at 80-100kph. But we can't run similar sized equipment on largely compatible mainlines, simply because some obscure FRA law says so. Does the M-1 even meet FRA crashworthiness requirements (then again, does anything?)? LIRR doesn't exactly see a whole lot of the huge coal trains that everybody always points too for the reason behind crashworthiness regs. So why not allow LIRR to run dual mode NYCTA/LIRR cars serving places like Far Rock, West Hempstead, Port Washington and so on? Oh wait, gee they might realize they could be proved wrong.
Why the heck is rail travel still segregated? I say tear down the weight barrier! I have a dream that someday, regardless of weight, power supply or push-pull versus MU, all options of moving people will be weighed equally to move people in the most efficient and safest method possible under catenary!
We shall overcome, oh we shall over come
Everybody! Let's hear it for equal rights for minority rail vehicles!
:)
Amen, brother!
They are now actually extending the lower level LIRR tunnel to Sunnyside as part of the East Side Access Project. I'm not sure if they're also extending the upper level subway tunnel to Sunnyside. They have the space to do it.
I'm not sure if they're also extending the upper level subway tunnel to Sunnyside. They have the space to do it.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line.
So *IF* that would happen you *could* run the (B) and the (Q) out Northern Blvd. This would relive pressure on the Flushing line, which in turn would permit it being converted to BMT standards and served by the (R) route.
The (E) and the (F) would return to the 53rd Street Tunnel
the (W) and the (R) (Broadway Locals) would use the 60th Street Tunnel
and the (B) (Q) and (V) trains would ride the 63rd Street Tunnel.
The (E) and (F) would run Express on the Queens Boulevard.
The (G) and (V) would run Local on Queens Blvd
and the (7) train would get a new elevated ROW following the LIE ROW pusing service into areas that are yet not served.
Elias
"I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
When the 63rd St tunnel work actually was started back almost 30 years ago, the plan was for a single track super express that would provide a 3rd rush hour track from somewhere east of Continental on the existing Hillside Ave line into Manhattan. It definitely was capacity releif for the existing QB line.
That was then, and this is now. There's no funded plan for anything more. There's lots of talk on Subtalk.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
That would've been the sensible thing to have done, Elias, and there is ridership for a Northern Blvd subway as it would have help offset passenger volume on both the Flushing and Queens Blvd. lines. Most of the north-south bus routes that serve areas like East Elmhurst and northern Jackson Heights and Corona brings commuter to the 74th Street/Roosevelt Avenue transit hub, leaving many commuters taking the 7 or E, F, R and V into Manhatttan. A Northern Blvd. line would lure these passengers away from the those trains and offer another, possibly quicker way into the city.
So either the MTA never realized this a possiblity for the connector instead of the super express line, or that the residents in Queens north of Northern Blvd. never really cared though funding for this line would've been a pain, though it would be a worthwhile investment, the state probably wouldn't have been able to pay for all that construction anyway; not to mention that Northern Blvd. is too busy a traffic median to be disrupted by subway construction.
However, that doesn't mean the 63rd Street connector wouldn't have connected to Queens Blvd. as that does now, if a Northern Blvd. line existed. The connector would actually serve a better purpose if connected to two trunk lines on the Queens side. It can allow three lines to serve 63rd Street, one which can include sending the Q to Northern Blvd. (if railfans want it back in Queens so badly, I personally don't care one way or the other) instead of all these proposals to send it to Queens Blvd., which we know can't handle all that service unless that line gets CBTC or something drastic happens on that line that changes it service patterns entirely.
I had heard (and could well be wrong) that the whole idea of the 63rd Street Subway tunnel was to connect to a NEW Northern Blvd Subway, and really had nothing to do with the Existing Queens Blvd Line."
That would've been the sensible thing to have done, Elias, and there is ridership for a Northern Blvd subway as it would have help offset passenger volume on both the Flushing and Queens Blvd. lines. Most of the north-south bus routes that serve areas like East Elmhurst and northern Jackson Heights and Corona brings commuter to the 74th Street/Roosevelt Avenue transit hub, leaving many commuters taking the 7 or E, F, R and V into Manhatttan. A Northern Blvd. line would lure these passengers away from the those trains and offer another, possibly quicker way into the city.
So either the MTA never realized this a possiblity for the connector instead of the super express line, or that the residents in Queens north of Northern Blvd. never really cared though funding for this line would've been a pain, though it would be a worthwhile investment, the state probably wouldn't have been able to pay for all that construction anyway; not to mention that Northern Blvd. is too busy a traffic median to be disrupted by subway construction.
However, that doesn't mean the 63rd Street connector wouldn't have connected to Queens Blvd. as that does now, if a Northern Blvd. line existed. The connector would actually serve a better purpose if connected to two trunk lines on the Queens side. It can allow three lines to serve 63rd Street, one which can include sending the Q to Northern Blvd. (if railfans want it back in Queens so badly, I personally don't care one way or the other) instead of all these proposals to send it to Queens Blvd., which we know can't handle all that service unless that line gets CBTC or something drastic happens on that line that changes it service patterns entirely.
Agreed the lower level is supposed to connect with the LIRR at Sunnyside Yard. But a few times I've been able to get an F train going thru there and all I saw was the turnoff and a wall.
I know about the lower level but does this belmouth drop to a lower level to meet up with this LIRR connection?
My guess is after the LIRR trains enter the belmouth the route drops downhill to:
>Go under the subway tunnel.
>Go under the East River.
The bellmouth is for a super express track via Queens Blvd, the REAL purpose for the 63 connector but it could still be built no doubt about it.
Would interesting to see what ends up happening with all this...
Actually, the bellmouth is for...whatever use NYCT wants to make of it. It's designed to allow for tunneling in any direction.
David
That "platform" that you saw on the northbound track along the curve was the original alignment of the southbound tail track of the 63rd Street line before it was connected to the Queens Blvd line. When the line ran to 21st Street/Queensbridge, that's where the tunnel ended. As for the bellmouth off the northbound track going straight ahead, that too was the original ROW of the tail tracks of the 63rd Street line. It was intended to go either through or under Sunnyside Yards as the Super Express line to link up to the Queens Blvd. line in Forest Hills, which of course was never built.
Simple question: how many upper level subway tracks (NOT lower level LIRR tracks) go through the tunnel? Two or four?
I did my best: looked at the MTA capital plan and searched the SubTalk index on "63st" and "ESA". Mostly what I understood was a reference to 76th St. and Charlton Heston parting the East River with a gun.
Two subway tracks, upper level. Two LIRR trackways, lower level.
Two tracks.
At some point shortly east of 2nd Avenue, the two tracks assume a bilevel arrangement. Two additional trackways curve in from the north at 2nd Avenue. Beginning near 3rd, the two trackways have tracks; they're behind the wall at the Lex station. The four tracks continue into Central Park, where the two south tracks curve off toward 6th while the two north tracks keep going to 7th.
Currently, only the south tracks are used in regular passenger service. The north tracks are used for occasional GO's.
This should answer most of your questions.
The 2 trackways come from the SOUTH . They are the connections to the 2nd Avenue Subway. It would allow trains coming from Queens via 63 Street to go SOUTH along 2nd Ave.
The 2 tracks behind the wall at 63 Street are the connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway going NORTH. Currently those tracks are used for lay-ups.
There are two connections with the proposed 2nd Avenue line. I mentioned one, planned to carry trains between upper 2nd Avenue and the Broadway BMT. You mentioned the other, planned to carry trains between lower 2nd Avenue and Queens.
On 2nd Avenue there is supposed to be 2 connections.
One is the connection that I mentioned for trains from Queens to go south along 2nd Ave.
The other one would allow trains from either 6 Avenue (IND) or Broadway (BMT) after 63 Street to curve north along 2nd Avenue.
What I wonder, and no one has answered, is what happens to the LIRR trackways as they head westward?
Do they end in a blank wall somewhere east of 2nd Ave.? Or are they actually connected to the north trackways at the Lexington Ave station?
The LIRR trackways go into Manhattan along 63 St. They turn south at Park Ave and connect with the Metro North north of Grand Central. AKAIK not much of the route has been actually built. There are provisions for the route at Sunnyside Yard and some ramps at Grand Central and the area north of it.
The LIRR route has no connection with the 63 Street subway tunnel.
"They turn south at Park Ave and connect with the Metro North north of Grand Central. AKAIK not much of the route has been actually built."
I'm asking how much of the route has been built. It certainly doesn't go to Park Ave. Where does it end?
Second Avenue.
In a blank wall?
yes
Thanks.
First time I've ever gotten a straight answer on that question.
In a blank wall?
No actually there is a secret cave there where they grow mushrooms, and the front end of horses for further assembly in Albany.
Not much of the LIRR tunnel has actually been built. The original plan was to have a railroad terminal built in the area of 48 Street or somewhere in the area. Plans were changed and the tunnel was to connect with Metro North at Park Ave. Not much of the tunnel was actually built AFAIK. From what I've heard in subtalk just a tunnel heading at Sunnyside yard and some ramps built on the lower level at Grand Central and the ROW north of there.
The LIRR tunnel is complete under the East River, from the heading adjacent to Sunnyside Yard - it's the lower level of the subway tunnel. How much farther it goes on the Manhattan side I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, that's what instigated my questions, because I was hoping those stub tracks were going to continue onto trackways into the tunnel, for a total of four. Oh, well. Better the SAS.
63 Street tunnel has 2 tracks. Not counting the 2 tracks meant for the LIRR. BTW those tracks are not built yet. AFAIK.
It has nothing to do with 76 Street. The closest thing I can think of to Charlton Heston was one person nabbed years ago before the tunnel opened who was walking the length of the tunnel everyday to get to/from work.
How long time can take the longest trip on NYC Subway (from Far Rockaway to Wakefield, if I don't mistake)?
How long time can take the longest trip on NYC Subway (from Far Rockaway to Wakefield, if I don't mistake)?
Far Rockaway to Wakefield is not the longest single-line trip, as you'd have to change between the A and the 2. Far Rockaway to 207th Street on the A is the longest single-line trip and takes maybe 90 minutes. Far Rockaway to Wakefield would be about another half-housr.
207th Street to Far Rockaway on the A line is roughly 1 hour and 32 minutes when it's running express. During the midnight hours when it's running local, the ride is roughly 1 hour and 43 minutes.
>>>>Far Rockaway to 207th Street on the A is the
longest single-line trip and takes maybe 90 minutes.<<
What about the F from 179th to Coney, when the F is going to Coney, that is?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Gee, you missed the two Field Trips to the Beaches of Rock & Long in 2002. You could have found out first hand.
This writer started at Main Street, which isn't the longest trip that one could take in the subways, but it is up there.
Take the A from FR to Times Sq then take the 2 to 241 St-Wakefield. It should take about 2 hours to complete the whole trip.
What is wrong with the A to Broadway-Nassau to the 2 at Fulton? Easier to transfer there too.
Nothing is wrong with that.
columbus circle?
That would be the A to the 1 to the 2, unless you do it between midnight and 6 AM.
No, the 1/9 only stops there then you would have to transfer at Times Sq or 72 St; depending on which way you're going.
Overnights the 2 train stops at 59 Street. But I think the whole direction question was meant for during the day.
In that case:
I'll give you a choice:
1) Take the A train to Broadway-Nassau. Get off toward the back. Follow the signs for the Uptown 2.
2) Take the same A train to 42 Street. Get off toward the back of the train and follow the signs very carefully for the Uptown 2.
Overnights the 2 train stops at 59 Street. But I think the whole direction question was meant for during the day.
In that case:
I'll give you a choice:
1) Take the A train to Broadway-Nassau. Get off toward the back. Follow the signs for the Uptown 2.
2) Take the same A train to 42 Street. Get off toward the back of the train and follow the signs very carefully for the Uptown 2.
What about Chambers Street/Park Place? It's the easiest of the three.
What is the difference in milage between the White Plains Road and the Pelham Bay Lines in the Bronx?
As I mentioned before, I think Park Place/Chambers St is the easiest. Both of the transfers you mentioned requires a walk.
Da Beastmaster
"Both of the transfers you mentioned requires a walk."
No matter how you slice it, dice it, thrice it, ANY transfer requires a walk, one hike upstairs and one hike downstairs. That applies to all 3 of the transfers mentioned. If you have an Unlimited Ride Card, you can be adventureous and exit the A train at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, exit via. the west staircase, walk one block north and cross Fulton Mall to Hoyt St. on the #2.
I think that the Park Place/Chambers requires a less of a walk.
Da Beastmaster
Maybe you're right about Chambers/Park Place. I was thinking one has to walk up a certain flight of stairs to get the 2 line from the A platform. Also I think 42 St and B'way-Nassau have more people walking around there as well.
Maybe you're right about Chambers/Park Place. I was thinking one has to walk up a certain flight of stairs to get the 2 line from the A platform.
Up one flight, around a corner, down one flight. If you're near the rear of the A, there's really not much walking involved, far less than the transfers at B'way-Nassau/Fulton or 42nd.
Actually, the easiest transfer btwn the A and 2 is at Park Place/Chambers St which is one stop on both lines.
Da Beastmaster
Well, my version of a transfer from the A to the 2 involves 'A' to Hoyt-Schermerhorn (or Jay St.) then a 'C' to Franklin Ave. where I grab a FS ride to Botanic Garden for the connection to the Flatbush trains at the Franklin Ave. station.
It's the scenic route :)
Hey, Doug thats a trip I always wanted to do. I may do it on my Vacation next month.
Gimme a holla...I'll give you the 'grand tour' (old buildings and such along the ROW).
I just took this trip two week ago. I was in a R142/142A mood. I should have called you.
Don't sweat it...we'll all get together on one of Thurston's annual summer Rockaway Line SubTalk gatherings ('Trips to the Beaches of Rock 'n Long').
Wrong Mr. BMT breath ... we'll only do it when it's time to sweat < g >
Seriously, why would we do a trip to the beaches when we can't walk on the board walk ? I love dodging those speeders on the bikes and the bathing suits are nice to look at too < g >
I didn't say we'd be going anytime soon....geez!
Absolutely. Except at night, when Columbus Circle is easier, particularly southbound.
"Absolutely. Except at night, when Columbus Circle is easier, particularly southbound."
Yeah, I meant to mention that transfer as well. Thanx for the added info.
Da Beastmaster
I can easily answer this question because I have done this for years. Depending on what time you travel, it can take you anywhere from 2 hours 10 minutes to 2 hours and 40 minutes.
In the past, there was the *LONGEST* one seat ride in the system: CC Local from Rock Park to Bedford Park Blvd. The only train to cover all four boroughs of NYCT. Two hours, 11 minutes. Local all the way. Whew!
Now that was torture I'm sure ;-). And the CC/C was like that until 1992 when the C got shortened to Euclid all day weekdays.
I'm going to try and take a ride on the line tomorrow morning.
I think railfan windows are only on the R42's.
The "L" looks to be close to 100% R143. You CAN see out the window if you stand back and don't mind the "trails".
wayne
Probably closer to 80%. Last night I saw an R-42 or R-40M (I couldn't tell which) L train while crossing above on the 3.
Already that many sets on the L? Wow...
Yup, we need less than 5 trainseys before the L Line becomes 100% R143.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
R-42's with the exception of one or two sets of R-40M's are the only railfan friendly car sets you're likely to find on the "L".
Railfan with a R42 while you can people b/c soon they will all be gone from the L! There are a couple of sets left.
All of them are heading to CI Yard, correct? I wonder if the same will happen when the R160 sets start coming.
They're supposed to be going to CI but a few may go to the J too. When the R160 comes in, some models will be retired.
"Railfan with a R42 while you can people b/c soon they will all be gone from the L! There are a couple of sets left."
When the first R-143's debuted on the (L) we were all excited and were clamoring for schedules for riding or photographing them. Now with the line almost R-143's were clamoring to ride the last R-42's.
The changing of the guard !
Bill "Newkirk"
There are railfan windows on the R42 Cars that are currently being removed from the L Line, the L Line within 2-3 weeks will be 100% R143. It's kinda hard to ride the R42 now, because it is now being taken over by the R143 Cars, so if you catch the R42, enjoy it while it last on the L Line! You can see out of the R143's Cab Doors but you will be looking through 2 doors, because of the full-width cab.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I am thinking about picking one more day on the J, so I would have 3 days all new R143's and 2 days with the R42's. I still like the way the R42's handle, also I need to give my right hand a brake sometime from holding a controll all day. I think the R143's would have been better if the had the same controll as the R142's, this way T/O could have the option to change hands as needed.
Robert
GOOD LUCK !
Bill "Newkirk"
Coming back to Manahattan on the J and getting something to eat along the way back.
There used to be a deli in Williamsburg called Gottlieb's. Does anyone know if its still around?
Where in Williamsburg? Lee Avenue?
How is the ride on the NJT Light Rail vehicles? Are they smooth and comfortable? I was thinking about taking a ride out there on the Light Rail system and see how it was.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The better part of the experience is to stop at the lights and compare it to the speed of riding grade-separated. While the vehicles are bright and comfortable (the advantages of riding above ground on rails), it reminds you why you switch to an express -- the constant stopping. Definitely worth the ride, and a very short PATH trip to get there now that the Hoboken terminal (very handsome) is open.
The HBLRT is a very nice transportation line. First of all, think about this. It's the first completely new rail transit line built in the metropolitan area in, what, 60 years? It's expanding, going south and north. It has good connections to ferries. (Not great though; I heard the station in Weehawken will be a thousand feet from the ferry docks!) Still, there are five ferry loading points right now.
With the Hoboken stop, there are new connection possibilities, and a larger group of likely passengers. Hoboken Terminal is a real treasure. A working waterfront rail terminal...with ferry connections to upper and lower West Side of Manhattan, Battery Park and Wall Street, and ferry transfers (!!) to Queens and Brooklyn and other points. In this day and age. Probably the only one like it in the world.
I've walked over the Bayonne Bridge from Staten Island to ride it. Bayonne....kinda Brooklyn-like, Jersey style. It rides through some old neighborhoods. Starts out ground level. There are some cool elevated sections. And isn't that cool too, brand new elevated tracks build through city streets! Who'd a thunk it?
Essex Street in Jersey City....go check it out. You can't believe this is old J.C. Makes the whole area, like, feel brand new.
The elevated approach to Hoboken gives me flashbacks to something I've never seen (understandably....)...that Hoboken Elevated that used to go down to the Terminal.
I'm running off at the mouth here. But yeah, go check it out. You'll be amazed.
Been there, done that < g >
You missed the "Field Trip" MLK Monday ! A baker's dozen of use did HBLR & Newark City Subway. The cars are esentially the same on both routes, but the routes themselves are completly different, e.g. street running, cut, tunnel, private ROW, slow, fast, etc.
Worth the time !
"You missed the "Field Trip" MLK Monday !"
A.K.A. "deep freeze Monday" !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know this topic came up before, but I think the MTA should consider building a tunnel connecting either Brooklyn or Manhattan to S.I., sending SIRT through that tunnel, or you can send the 1 & 9 Trains to S.I. from Manhattan, or send the R to Staten Island, I think this would be good for commuters, this would be real high speed subway for NYC.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
I completely agrre with you. You have to wonder if that ferry will still be around...?
I have given thought to this.
Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link.
If I would build such a connection, I think I would replace SIRT with LRV equipment, and then expand the system to include the North Shore routing, and street running on Victory Blvd and Forest(?) Avenue: But then what to do with them when they get to Manhattan. Do they terminate there with a transfer to the subway.
All this does is to move the SI transfer point from St. George to WTC. Not a good plan. I think I'd jsut keep the boats, and bring new LRVs into St. George. That is the most economically feasible project.
Elias
The three most cost effective ways to connect Staten Island to the outside world are...
1.) Run the HBLRT over the Bayone bridge, this can be done without removing any lanes.
2.) There are plans to extend the PATH from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport, from the Southern Part of the Airport to the Port Elizabeth area is less than a mile. The distance from Port Elizabeth across the Arthur Kill to Staten Island is very close ( Kerry Collins could probably throw a pass from NJ to a receiver on Staten Island). So if the PATH is extended to EWR (very likely), then all that's needed is to extend it by about a mile to a new Arthur Kill bridge (alot cheaper than a tunnel across/under the Verazano Narrows) and run it along the North Shore ROW.
3.) Would entail combining the Cross Harbor rail tunnel for Freight and Passenger trains, some sophisticated ventilation systems would be needed.
I'm glad you brought up these schemes. Connecting Staten Island to the rest of NYC is discussed here about once every two months, but I hear very little about the much easier option of connecting Staten Island to New Jersey. I've long felt that extending HBLR across the Arthur Kill would be a good idea, but I like your PATH idea a lot, because it would connect with SIRT. Do you have a preference among your ideas?
Mark
Postscript: When I called connecting SI to NJ "easier" I meant from an engineering and construction point of view, not from a political cooperation point of view! : )
"There are plans to extend the PATH from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport, from the Southern Part of the Airport to the Port Elizabeth area is less than a mile. "
I believe the PATH expansion plan is limited to extending PATH from Newark-Penn, along the NEC ROW to EWR Rail Station. PATH passengers would then use AirTrain-Newark to reach their terminals, just as NJ Transit and Amtrak riders do now.
Linking Staten Island to New Jersey by rail would be far easier. The problem would be finding excess rail capacity on PATH to get the trains through the tunnels into Manhattan without causing an extensive bottlneck, either around Exchange Place or Pavonia/Newport. Plus the Port Authority would have to be in on the deal, and the PANYNJ people representing New Jersey would have to see some sort of benefit for them to allow the use of funds to go ahead.
The Cross Harbor tunnel would be far more costly, but would have the advantage of having a line (the R) already waiting near the point where the tunnel would probably make land in Brooklyn. But unless the connection was piggy-backed as some sort of bi-level tunnel with the Cross Harbor Tunnel plan, the cost/benefit ratio just wouldn't be there (and building a tunnel to SI and then running a freight line around the north edge of the island to get to the old B&O railroad bridge to New Jersey would face NIMBY problems of its own).
>>> Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link. <<<
And you do not think that would change if there was a subway link to Manhattan? You need to take another look at the photos of Sunnyside when the Flushing line was built. It's a good thing they didn't decide then that they could stop building the El at Queensboro Plaza and rely on trolleys in that sparsely populated area.
Tom
Presently the SIRT does not have enough traffic to justify the construction of a high volume link.
And you do not think that would change if there was a subway link to Manhattan? You need to take another look at the photos of Sunnyside when the Flushing line was built. It's a good thing they didn't decide then that they could stop building the El at Queensboro Plaza and rely on trolleys in that sparsely populated area.
Much of Queens was still undeveloped and suitable for new construction when the Flushing line opened. While Staten Island still has some undeveloped land, there's not enough, and hence not enough potential for new construction, to allow for significant increases in SIRT ridership.
I think you are limiting yourself to seeing new riders as only coming from new construction. How about getting cars off the highways? If the SIRT went right into Manhattan, I think it would be very popular and the growth would come from those driving now!
It would possibly move a lot of people from the express busses that pass by or are close enough to these stations to whatever subway lines in SI. No matter what, a link from SI to Manhattan or Brooklyn would also cause a massive realignment of the SI local and express bus routes.
=)
Note the short distance from EWR to Staten Island, and the closeness of NJ and Staten Island near the Goethals bridge.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/310290/M/
[...or you can send the 1 & 9 Trains to S.I. from Manhattan...]
With stops at Ellis Island and Liberty Island!!
- - - - -
[...or send the R to Staten Island....]
Robert Moses thought of that possibility - and made sure that the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge could NEVER be used for subway traffic.
- - - - -
In any case, Staten Islanders would get all NIMBY over any subway connection.
Does Staten Island really want a subway? I don't think so, look at how SIR is currently every 15 min rush hours, 1/2 hour all other times except nights and 1 hour late nights. Since people didn't fight for better headways, then leave it as is.
The 1/9 would become too long but its one stop; I think the R extension is a better idea however another possibility is a spur after 59 St on the 4 Av line it runs via the Bay Ridge freight rail line and goes to SI.
I'd like to recommend the following:
Reduce weekend service on the 4 line. Reduce the number of TPH's between 11am and 5pm. Eliminate all station switching jobs at Utica. Use those switching men for road jobs. All crews will do just two trips paying just eight hours, and everyone will relay their own train at Utica.
No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p and all 7 trains go local n/b.
The express 7 has a lot of demand durning off-peak hr.
And if there is only a $0.25 fare hike, 7 express will be the first thing to go.
Why is that exactly?
That wouldn't make sense to cut the 7. If any express services were to be cut, the Concourse express might be the first to go but I think NO express services should be cut.
no way, don't cut ANY Bronx Expresses, Cut the Brighton Express to rush hours only, extend the White Plains Road Thru express(to make up for the G.O.) for a while with <5> service lasting a whole 3+ hours during the rush and (5)(and a few <5>) trains will run express middays and early evenings(Bronx)
That's why I said NO express services should be cut. You can't cut back the Brighton express b/c it has consistent ridership throughout the day.
Thank you Flatbush. That's why Express service is used in the first place.
Your welcome. I just had to make sense ;-). All jokes aside though if there was no 7 express in the midday all the time [right now its shut down middays due to track work], trains would back up like crazy and would cause delays.
You really be nuts to have the gall to cut MY express service (which is crowded over the bridge to Manhattan, even at 12 noon). The Brighton Line was designed for full weekday (and if warranted, summer weekend) express service. Many Brighton line riders choose the express over the nearby Culver Line, because it's faster to/from Manhattan, and many stations have bus lines which intersect with the Culver line as well.
At the rate the Brighton line ridership is going, maybe when Stillwell is 3/4's complete in 2004, we may see weekend Brighton express service at least in the summer months. The worst and most crowded day for the Brighton Line outside of rush hour? The annual Coney Island Mermaid Parade, even more crowded than 4th of July.
On the weekends the brighton line would bennifit if it had 4 car trains more often. Currently the time between train causes the train to fill up.
With shorter trains utilizing OPTO. Both express and local service could be run at a lower operating cost then the current service. In addition it will convince people to not drive into the city on weekends.
I drive into the city on weakends if possible. Between waiting for the train(and bus) and local service it take adds about 20-25 minutes to my travel time vs 25 min by car
"Between waiting for the train(and bus) and local service it take adds about 20-25 minutes to my travel time vs 25 min by car"
How could it add 20-25 minutes to your commute if the Q line has 8 minute headways on Saturday from 6 AM to 11 PM and Sunday from 7 AM to 7 PM (approx times)? And, with the exception of the B16, B48 at Prospect Park, B23 at Cortelyou Rd, the B2, B31 for Kings Highway, and the B4 for Sheepshead Bay, most bus lines serving the Brighton line have 10 minute headways or less on weekends.
B11 at Ave J is every 15 minutes on Saturdays. Q runs every 8 minutes from 6:30AM-10:30PM on Saturdays and from 9:30AM-8PM on Sundays.
well the main ridership of the B11 are orthodox jews going from midwood to borough park, so on saturday there is no need for heavy bus service
Well I was bound to leave out a bus route sooner or later, I usually take the B11 to my favorite supermarket, Shop-Rite by Ave I/Culver Line. But HA! you left out the B67 (every 15-30 minutes) at 7th Ave.
Better stop now, cause our token booth at Newkirk Aveis slated for closure (lol). It's only for one month, the S/A will work outside the booth as the area is being tested and removal of asbestos starting 2/28/03.
How does it add to my trip?
It does. It takes aprox 45-60 min to midtown during the weekdays with brighton express service and the B2. On the weekends I am forced to take the B3 due to the B2 infrequent service.
It takes 65-90 min to get to midtown during at 8:30 am on saturdays and sundays(have a class at 10 pm). Add that with if I need to transfer to another train and if I am heading into the city to hang out and I am not getting home to midnight and the differnce between car and subway are even greater.
Looking at the return trip, my wait time on the broadway line for the Q doubles from 2-6 min to 8 min(lack of q diamond on weekends)
Instead of cutting back of the frequency of service, the MTA should be cutting the train length and size of the crew and run more frequent service preferable express and local if possible.
This would save money and provide better service to the riding public. The long waites for trains compounded by transfers scares many people out of taking mass transit on weekends and nights.
Plus it is a colosal waste of money and wear and tear on equiptment to run 600 ft trains when a shorter train would do
Of course the MTA would need to educate the piblic(make a tag name for the enhanced weekend service) and properly lable the areas where 4 car trains will stop to reduce dwell time. In addition in cab CCTV screens would reduce the dwell time if they were installed. The brighton line already has a cctv system covering part of most platforms (sheapshead bay, kings highway, ave h, j , m)
"On the weekends the brighton line would bennifit if it had 4 car trains more often."
4-car trains are especially a disaster on the weekends. Dwell times are endless as everybody at the ends of the platforms has to run to the train. And there is NO way to educate weekend customers because it's new people each weekend.
Sorry but that won't be possible. OPTO will NOT be useful onthe Brighton line, especially in Manhattan during the daytime on weekends. It has good ridership then people would have to run if a train is down there already but I believe there should be a seasonal weekend Brighton express.
"....I believe there should be a seasonal weekend Brighton express." I agree. Some months ago, David posted statistics for weekday and weekend fare collections at each of the Brighton stations. It appeared to me that Brighton Beach had a higher proportion of ridership on weekends as compared to weekdays than the others. I asked David in a post if there were seasonal statistics on a station-by-station basis and he replied that he did not have access to them. I suspect that the high weekend proportion at Brighton Beach is based on summer ridership.
They could of did that a long time ago. It would have been a great idea seeing the Brighton hass the most ridership to Coney Island out of the 4 lines [Culver 2nd, West End 3rd and Sea Beach last]. I think the summer weekend ridership is higher too although its moderate year round.
whether we like it or not, the brighton is being Equipped for opto service, look at ave H
What's at Avenue H that would lead one to believe Brighton is going OPTO?
David
There are CCTV cameras and monitors at AVE H. These cameras do not cover the entrire platform length but rather assist the conductor in seeing hard to see areas of the platform.
Atlantic Ave on the Q is also getting CCTV Camera assitance for the conductor
If the assistance is for the Conductor, and the Conductor is in the middle of the train, then the assistance would not be for an OPTO Train Operator, who, like all Train Operators in NYC, is in the front of the train.
David
Unless, of course, the stop marker for an OPTO train put the OPTO Train Operator at what would be the Conductor's position on a non-OPTO train. Is that the case here?
David
Huh? I don't see ANY evidence that would make the Q go OPTO.
Well lately to be honest there isnt any Midday 7 express anymore, as construction had led to expresses ending at or before 10am.
Once they do redo 74th st, and put in those new switches, that will be more G.O.'s.
Yeah I know, I said that in another post earlier.
The ONLY subway service I can accept any reductions two is the elimination of service to the edges of the city in the overnight hours, as we have discussed in earlier threads. But ONLY if the trains are replaced by buses that are even MORE frequent, and have automatic signal priority. That is, only if the total trip times can be LOWER rather than higher, with money still saved.
After the $2.00 fare, the subway will be covering its operating costs. I can see reducing bus service since the buses lose money, though at some point service becomes so infrequent that it is virtually worthless. Why cut service that is making money?
That's something else that's not going to happen. Some of the stations in the "fringe areas" have some of the highest ridership levels away from the Manhattan CBD (Main Street, Parsons/Archer, etc.). The people who use those stations will scream, and so will their elected officials.
I have to disagree first the 7 line is very crowded on the weekends, wiht the GO's on the 5 line with the signal situation, you need the 4 line plus during the baseball season, you have the Yankees, you need equipment for that, On the 7 line you have the Mets crowd, to deal with have you ever ride the 4 line on the weekend?Its always jam packed, I always thought this line could use more equipment, I would doubt if you would see service cuts on the east side.
Based on my entirely informal observations, the 4 is the most crowded line in the system on Sundays. Come to think of it, all IRT lines are pretty crowded on weekends. Weekend cuts should go to the B Division, which seems to have a lot more service than it needs.
I agree that a modest midday service reduction on the 7 is worth considering.
You're right. The 4 line is busy. The whole IRT is busy, which is why I can't wait to get to the B division. A division crews work too hard. And while we're on the topic of overcrowding, would you believe that over the last few weeks, I have been able to get a seat on every n/b E,F,and R train I've boarded during rush-hour? Things are much better for Queens riders, now that we have 4 trains instead of 3 connecting the Queens corridor to Manhattan.
But the 4 train gets down to 6 minute headways on Saturday afternoons. Add that to the 6 TPH on the 5 line, and you have 16 TPH on the Lexington Ave express. Is that necessary?
Given the actual crowding I've seen on the 4, yes, apparently it is necessary (unless what I've seen is atypical).
They should have even more TPH. Perhaps if they had been able to merge the T/O and Conductor titles, they could have split the trains and had half trains running OPTO twice as often when crowding is light. It's not just the crowding, it's the wait for the train, especially when you are changing and you have to change trains more than once.
I ride the 4 on mid-days from Downtown into Brooklyn. Most days I can't get a seat.
Sorry you have to stand for such great distances.
And who's going to pay to cut all those trains for weekend OPTO, and add them up again for the weekday service???
Sorry you have to stand for such great distances.
And who's going to pay to cut all those trains for weekend OPTO, and add them up again for the weekday service???
they could have split the trains and had half trains running OPTO twice as often when crowding is light.
I take it you're not a T/O. Are you sugestiong OPTO in shuttle form here or full line? Because you make no mention of shuttles so I'm seeing full line. Would you like to do that from 179th Street to Avenue X? Here's how it would go: Relay; for 30+ stops you have to: get up (if you choose to sit), turn around, open the doors, Announcements, close, turn around, pull train out.
Even if you have a bunch of smaller shuttles with better service and a bunch of trunk lines, First, you're not helping the customers as service on the trunk lines will not be as good so they've a long wait anyway, and now you've made them transfer and stand on a possibly cold or hot platform. You've possibly added an extra transfer they didn't have to make before. Also I can't see how a half-train and more service doesn't save much.
Also, think of the T/O's. Some lines like the M they're getting abused alreay. Some of those jobs are 12 trips OPTO... the same jobs were 12 trips with a C/R! The work programs were identical, just with the OPTO notation, which means they get very little recovery time.
Yeah they try to work all of us like dogs down here, then at the same time try to screw us on benefits and pay, and cutting conductors' jobs. Hell, for the new pick, all the A jobs midnights out of Lefferts Blvd. are now all OPTO to Euclid. If you think all the OPTO work now is something, just wait when the R-160s come online and they go ahead with their plans to make the "J" line OPTO on weekends. If you wanna see a service disaster, wait until they do this!! Unfortunately this is the way of TA's future :-( Soon there won't even be OPTO...there will be NPTO (No Person Train Operation) :-( :-p That's why I am working, right now, on getting out of NYCT.....I've seen the grass here, and it ain't that green, so time to move on. I tell anyone on here who is young enough, and can afford to make moves to start making moves now.
"just wait when the R-160s come online and they go ahead with their plans to make the "J" line OPTO on weekends. If you wanna see a service disaster, wait until they do this!!"
Why would that be a service disaster, provided they pick the right places to stop the trains and clearly mark them so that people know where to wait?
I understand it's harder on the T/O, but why is it harder on the public as long as the information is properly posted? (I realize NYCT could botch it from a service point of view, but it seems to me they could also do it right if they actually try).
"I agree that a modest midday service reduction on the 7 is worth considering."
Have you been on the 7 in middays lately?
Yes. I've never had any trouble at all finding a seat. Unless my experience is atypical (which is possible), there's room for a service reduction.
For me, a typical experience on the express towards Flushing during midday hours is to see standees, at least through 61st Street, if not Junction Boulevard. Cutting that service would spark a major political battle.
Apparently you found a seat on the #7 local, not the express.
I've never found the express to be more crowded than the local west (south) of Queensboro Plaza -- middays, I've always found seats in plentiful supply on both. (Closer to Flushing, of course the express is more crowded than the local, but peak crowds on both are closer to Manhattan.)
And if there are occasional standees, there's nothing wrong with that.
Wow! I can't even believe your talking about cutting switchman job at Utica. I know those old timers will love you if that happens. I think they tryed it before and it failed.
Those old-times sit around all day on weekends, and keep track of which T/O's have only 2 trips on the 4. And when those T/O's arrive at Utica, the switchmen sometimes refuse to relay those trains. They bitch and moan to the dispatcher and make sure the T/O does a relay.
Don't worry Dave, no one is cutting the penalty time on the 4 line anytime soon. I did the math. Even if you eliminate station switching at Utica, and cut three or four intervals on weekends, you still won't have enough T/O's to cover all those trips. I think I counted 136 intervals out of Woodlawn on Saturday, and only 55 T/O's.
I liked your idea about making all those jobs 2 trips. I know its not likely to happen so I will continue to stay away form the #4 Line unless I do pick a 2 tripper.
Don't worry Dave, no one is cutting the penalty time on the 4 line anytime soon. I did the math. Even if you eliminate station switching at Utica, and cut three or four intervals on weekends, you still won't have enough T/O's to cover all those trips. I think I counted 136 intervals out of Woodlawn on Saturday, and only 55 T/O's.
I almost forgot next pick Assignments on the #5 Line have been reportedly cut. The jobs are those Gap trains out of E 180 St during the week and Wkends everyone one does 3 trips and maybe a shuttle.
I hope I am wrong on this one!
It was bound to happen. I never understood why as many as 5 trains ran lite from 180 to BG between 3 and 530pm, when trains are desperately needed.
to become <5> trains to E 238 St and fill in the gap in WPR(and Dyre) service
You're talking about the n/b end. I'm talking about the s/b trip. Why can't those gap trains out of 180 run in service to BG, go around the loop, and continue to WP?
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy know you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy know you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
Couldn't the Bowling Green loop be treated like the adjacent South Ferry loop, with passengers allowed to remain on the train? That would eliminate the time-consuming discharge procedure.
Not really with those Rush Hours Bowling Green trains. I use to work one of those jobs. I was do at Bowling Green at 5:30PM but scheduled to leave N/B at 5:45PM. Now thats 15 Minutes in the loop. Also if there is a delay in service North of Bowling Green they don't let you out of the loop until they have a open space because its considered a Gap train. I spent up to 30 Minutes in the loop one evening with the train light now ass people to the mix not good at all.
Don't discharge. Just make announcements, and if passengers stay on, it's their fault.
Should FIVE trains run lite to BG, stranding thousands of passengers just because a few morons at BG won't get off the train?
Most want to go to Brooklyn anyway so your just picking them up and dropping them off. Let me tell you did you ever go Out of service at Bowling Green during the PA Rush Hour?? I did and those people don't want to get off the train. They take there time and argue before getting off the train. It took me 5 Minutes to move it out.
I noticed that the weekend when the TA had a GO on the "5" and was using R62s on the "5". The R62 ran along the Lexington Ave Exp., signed up as the "5", all 10 cars, both sides front and back. as well as Bowling Green as the southern terminus-all 10 cars, both sides. The conductor made announcements all along the route that this was a #5 to Bowling Green.
When that train arrived to Bowling Green, the conductor announced that this was the last stop. The people did not listen, nor budge. The conductor had to make the announcement 3x and start flashing the lights. When the passengers got the message, first, they refused to get off the train. Finally, when they got off the train, some of them went straight to the conductor and cursed him out. When he pointed to three of the rollsigns, they continued to curse him out anyway.
But if the destination signs say "Bowling Green" and the C/R is making announcements all along that the train will terminate at BG, then there should not be a problem. And you'd be surprised to see how many people get off at BG. I see those people from my position.
Now you should know some of these people don't read signs or listen to C/R Announcements. I also just to have the first evening train to Bowling Green the 19:53 DYR and those people always put up a fight with signs saying Bowling Green and my PA Announcements "This is a Bowling Green bound #5 Train".
The main reason for those light #5 trains to Bowling Green it for added Uptown Service.
soem people on redbirds could change some of the signs to read New Lots Avenue. I was on a #5 that had another destination, but stopped at Bowling Green
Thats a good point as well.
"Most want to go to Brooklyn anyway"
Whenever I take a 4/5 southbound in Manhattan large numbers of people get off at BB and Fulton, even if it's a Brooklyn bound train.
The evening rush needs more trains northbound than southbound. It makes sense to run some trains to Bowling Green.
How about: "Attention, this is Bowling Green, the last stop. The next stop is Bowling Green northbound." Give them 30 seconds, close the doors, and off the train goes.
let them ride though the loop!
We are not allowed to let them ride the loop at Bowling Green because the train can always go up 7 Ave and the other reason is the #5 spends 10 Minutes in the loop.
"other reason is the #5 spends 10 Minutes in the loop"
That would convince them not to do it again.
how long does the #6 stay in the City Hall loop?
Less then 2 Minutes.
It would take too long to Discharge the train at Bowling Green. The S/B service comes down hot and heavy now you spend 4 Minutes to discharge it backs up the road.
They don't walk through and discharge the train, it's like City Hall Loop routine.
Those people refusing to get off the train will get off real quick after they have gone around the loop and back uptown a few times. They will learn!
some people want to go back uptown through the loop that is the whole purpose of staying on
The crew is suppose to check but most don't. However if something happens in the loop or complaint is made by a customer that they ended up at Chambers Street its on the crew.
Brooklyn Bridge is another story.
also some 5 trains seem to run lite between E 180 St and E 238 St around 10-10:30 am, one of those should be in service like before
"I almost forgot next pick Assignments on the #5 Line have been reportedly cut. The jobs are those Gap trains out of E 180 St during the week."
Also the #3 jobs to/from E.180St is gone as well. Hell, they dont even go to E.180St now, so it doesnt make a difference. They drop out at 96St-Bway and run lite to Lenox Yard.
Da Beastmaster
They do??? I saw a 3 train in the Bronx last Wednesday afternoon. I think it was carrying passengers.
what time was it, and what was the destination sign
It was during the afternoon rush, perhaps around 6. I was on a 5 going the other way and I didn't have a clear view of the train. All I can say is that it was an R-62A consist signed as a 3.
That sounds like a fill in for a delay on the 2 line. There are no scheduled #3 trains to the Bronx in the afternoons.
Da Beastmaster
they could also send a #5 to E 241 Street, redbird recommended(for strip map reasons)
The Redbirds are just about done on the #5 Line. BTW the #4 Line have just gotten 10 new cars of Redbirds from E 180 St.
That leaves a Max of 60 cars on the #5 Line but it think its more like 40 cars in service.
"BTW the #4 Line have just gotten 10 new cars of Redbirds from E 180 St."
I knew I wasnt seeing things when I saw 9160-61 on the 4 last night. I heard another E.180St to Mosholu transfer last night. IDK if it was for todays GO or what.........
Da Beastmaster
No, The #5 is running #4 Line equipment only.
they should keep some r-33s in 239 St yard and some r-62s as well add some variety to WPR
It must have been, or maybe it was one of those ultra-rare R-62A 2 trains (I may have misread the sign).
When was this change made, and why?
There may be none scheduled but at times, there is always the possibility of a 3 running to the Bronx b/c of a problem.
"There may be none scheduled but at times, there is always the possibility of a 3 running to the Bronx b/c of a problem."
As I stated in my previous post........
Da Beastmaster
Sounds like someone was working their favorite line again.
Come to think of it, you can do this:
On weekends, the 4 train will terminate at Atlantic Ave. All crews will get 8 hours pay. This eliminates the station switching jobs and all that relay time you lose at Utica.
Wow!!! You really thought about this, havent you. I agree to some extent that the extra trains are not needed in Bklyn. Maybe some of them can loop around the Green with the 5s. Just my $0.55.
Da Beastmaster
Eliminate the switching jobs and the "old timers" take yard jobs, the people picked out of the yard jobs go to the road and the people on the extra list stay there longer.
Reduce the number of TPH's between 11am and 5pm...No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p
Is the object to reduce service or to reduce costs?
The basic problem for reducing costs is that the use of split shifts is no longer widespread. Practically all operating personnel work a nominal 8 hour day during an 8 hour period. Peak demand periods are 6-10am and 4-8pm. Operating personnel arriving at 6am would leave at 6am work from 6am to 2pm. It takes two crews different jobs to handle the rush hours. One crew cannot handle both am and pm rush hours within an 8 hour period.
The question is what to do about this situation. Should operating personnel sit idle during the off-peak hours while still on duty and collecting full pay or should they operate trains?
NYCT has chosen the latter option. They have also reduced rush hour service levels to the bare minimum and sometimes below the bare minimum. They have done this because each rush hour train costs two extra crews. NYCT has increased non-rush hour service levels because the crews are already there. These are probably some the economic realities that motivate the schedule makers.
If the TWU were willing to go back to working 8 hours during a 12 hour period for 8 hours pay, then the economics would radically change. NYCT schedule makers would be better able to match crew assignments with customer demand. There could be more rush hour service and less off peak service. Both rush hour periods would be handled by one crew and the 10am-4pm off peak service would be handled by another crew. This could result in a reduction in the number of operating personnel required.
As someone who WORKED those kind of hours 30 years ago, I can tell you that at the age of 19, I could handle it. One of the BIGGEST problems the TA had was that us "splitters" often didn't shape up well for the PM rush tour. There were a LOT of mistakes, folks not showing up for their shift on time or worse, showing up DRUNK ... if the TA were willing to take what they got, not require shizzing in the bottle and so many of the de rigeur of the day, perhaps. But you really DON'T want your train crews doing splits. It really screws people up even if they DON'T drink and DO show up on time.
And I had it worse than many - I lived at 205th on the D and reported to Stillwell. So I didn't have the option of going home, catching up on some sleep and going back given my location. So I ended up, bored out of my TEAT at Coney Island. Agggh. I wouldn't wish that on anybody given the realities of the TA. And it's gotten worse since. Nice idea, won't fly in reality. That's why TWU and NYCTA pulled the plug on THAT concept. Wasn't a "union power" thing at all. It was done for the safety and service reliability of the "customers" ...
You misunderstood the point of my post. I'm not advocating a return to split shifts. My point was explaining why a reduction in off peak service will no longer result in any cost savings.
That is even more why moving towards ATO is such a big cost saver to the TA. Personel costs and dealing with the needs of a human workforce is a touch challenge. One that technology has solved.
Having 4 hours in the middle of a day stranded away from home is a tough on a person. It would be easier to work 12 hours straight then to do 4 on 4 off 4 on
Would it be possible for NYCT to institute some work weeks consisting of 2 12 hour weekend shifts and 3 4-hour rush hour shifts?
That would create a certain number of jobs that only work when the demand is there.
Would it be possible for NYCT to institute some work weeks consisting of 2 12 hour weekend shifts and 3 4-hour rush hour shifts?
Generally, the fair hours laws are written so that any time over 8 hours in a day must be time and a half. Flex time arrangements, with 4 or 3 day weeks are negotiatied between management and labor. There is also a prohibition of working more than 12 hours in a day.
The object is to save money, while providing adequate levels of service. It's difficult for me to see how flex time schedules that are designed for providing uniform staffing 24/7 could save money for the non-uniform staffing levels required for subway service.
There is also a prohibition of working more than 12 hours in a day.
Maybe somewhere else, but not at NYCT. Our limit is 16 consecutive hours.
What are you thinking? The 4 is a VERY busy line 7 days a week all day, probably some hours of the night too. You can't cut weekend service, its like rush hour in the weekend mornings [see Atlantic Av]. Plus it runs express in Brooklyn so it doesn't tie up 2 & 3 service and all the current service IS needed in the Bronx and on the Lex Av line in Manhattan.
And for the 7 that's a no-no b/c it has heavy ridership as well 7 days a week. Then when you have baseball games on BOTH lines in the spring & summer you need the extra equipment. The 7 express ending at 9pm isn't so bad but if it's warranted after that time, then it [the express] should be every third train after 8:30pm.
"No express service on the 7 line between 10am and 3pm and after 830pm. Reduce the number of TPH's from 12 to 10 after 9p and all 7 trains go local n/b."
That will happen over the collective dead bodies of every elected official and community group who represents the 7 line's service area, including the Assembly's member on the Capital Project Review Board.
You haven't rode the #4 train on a Saturday and you want to cut Saturday service? It runs every 10 minutes until 12 Noon, 7 sinutes from Noon to 7 PM and is impossibly crowded by the time the train reaches 125th st from the Bronx. And on BOTH lines, you have baseball games on weekends (and some weeday games too at Shea!). You are reversing the trend of increased ridership since the inception of free transfers on Metrocard. I'd can only justify ending #7 express service an hour earlier at 9 PM, there are plenty of empty seats at that time, but that does not mean ending midday service.
Why would you cut 2 heavily used lines. Here's what I would do:
- Reduce the M to Chambers St only midday hours
- Terminate ALL G service north of Court Sq.
- Restore the A to a 6 TPH headway middays
Those cuts wouldn't yeild as much savings, but would be far less painful.
Again...
The M train service between Chambers Street and 9th Avenue during weekday middays is funded for by the State of New York. The MTA is given all the funds to operate that portion of the route by NY State and does not pay any expenses to operate it. Service will be operated as long as funding permits. If funding were discontinued, the MTA would probably cut the service at that time, though they may choose to continue operating it with their own capital.
I didn't know that.
The M train service between Chambers Street and 9th Avenue during weekday middays is funded for by the State of New York. The MTA is given all the funds to operate that portion of the route by NY State and does not pay any expenses to operate it.
Why?
To satisfy those in Chinatown when the MannyB Flip Flop occurred. The MTA was going to leave the M as it was. About 2 days before the service change, the MTA got the funding from Albany to run the M to 9th Avenue.
Since the state also faces a huge deficit, this funding should be eliminated. It serves no useful purpose. As I predicted, Chinese residents in Brooklyn have either adjusted to using Canal St. or they use the quicker Q/W to Canal St for the J/M to the Bowery option.
I agree. The M to Brooklyn middays is always empty. They need to cut that back, it is a waste. So is the Grand st shuttle bus, I never see more than 3 people on there.
The M to Brooklyn seems to run every 24 minutes most of the time. I doubt anyone wants to wait that long. Perhaps when they did the single tracking over the WillyB, if they ran Ms from 9th to the Bowery. After stopping at Bowery NB, they could have switched to the SB express track, stopped at the island platform at Essex, relayed there, and then gone back to Brooklyn, providing a 12 minute headway between Essex and 9th.
When trains are single-tracking over the Williamsburg Bridge, they run at 24-minute headways over the entire M line. There's certainly no need to run additional service south of Essex.
Normally, the M runs much more frequently -- 10-minute midday headways, I believe. All of those trains run to 9th Avenue.
But my point is no one in Chinatown wants to take the M since it comes every 24 minutes alot of the time middays. If it ran more often, perhaps people would take it instead of the W.
What David Greenberger (yes, I got it right this time :-)) was saying is that the only time the M runs on a 24-minute headway is when there is a single-track operation on the Williamsburg Bridge. That does NOT happen every day. The rest of the time, the line is indeed on a 10-minute headway middays.
David
And, to follow up, the single-track GO seems to last quite a while (a month or two, at least) when it comes up, but it doesn't come up very often. I haven't checked my records but I don't think we've had that GO since late summer or early fall. IINM, it's usually put into place by NYCDOT request to accomodate work on one of the bridge's inner roadways.
I understand that. I also understand that it does not happen every day but it happens with enough regularity so the people who might use the M will go over to Broadway.
I understand that. I also understand that it does not happen every day but it happens with enough regularity so the people who might use the M will go over to Broadway.
Single tracking does not happen all that often.
As for the M's regular headways, I don't feel they are horrible. They may not be as good as some other lines (in fact worse than many lines), but I used to be a regular user of the M on the northern end, which during the day has the exact same headways as the southern end of the line. It never seemed like an unbearable wait under normal operating circumstances.
"As for the M's regular headways, I don't feel they are horrible."
Other than the A train beyond where it splits, and late nights, every line pretty much has at least 6 scheduled trains per hour.
The catch is: do those trains actually arrive at regularly spaced intervals? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. All the average person needs is a few bad experiences to get soured on a train and assume they never know when it will come.
Ten years ago, I got seriously soured on the N/R in Manhattan. Even though they were scheduled for at least 12 if not more trains per hour all times except late nights, I felt they would come in bunches: none for 12 minutes, then 3 in a row. Lately I've been much happier with them.
Yes, the state has the ability to cut this funding at any time. I figure it is one of the first things to be cut, but I don't know how many other things the state funds that might be less important.
1:Same as current service, without any skip stop
2:Same as current, local on weekends
3:same as current, Limited weekend service only, all service to utica
4:Same as current, local on weekends, all service to new lots
5:same as current Limited weekend service to South ferry
6:same, less pelham express
7:same, Rush hour exprewss only
9:cut
A:Local on weekends, same otherwise
B:205th to 34th ALL TIMES
C:no weekend service
D:cut
"A:Local on weekends, same otherwise "
Ever ride the A on a weekend? I do sometimes and it's packed. No way could they cut the C and run the A as a substitute. Those A trains are packed.
You service plan will never make it out the door. No one wants to ride the A and B as locals on weekends if they need to go to Upper Manhattan and the Bronx. And how you have to GALL to cut the D line out completely?
I agree with you. I didnt start the thread.
The CPW Local takes 2 minutes longer than the express
Ever ride the A on a weekend? I do sometimes and it's packed.
Even on weekday after 4:30PM, You can squished on that that lines.
Not good idea to cut C off and have A replaced those stops. No one wants ride a long trip between Queens and Manhattan.
4 car OPTO could be utilize on the Q, W, N, R after 9pm(southern terminal CI/95th street) and most of the day on the weekend if the MTA would reduce the headway on these trains. The cost savings would be astronomical. Full 8 car service can begin to be restored at starting at brighton beach at around 6 am.
I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO
The increased headway more then makes up for the increase in dwell time. This is a great way to enhance service while significantly reducing abor costs, wear and tear on equiptment.
4 car OPTO could be utilize on the Q, W, after 9 N, R after 7pm(southern terminal CI/95th street) and most of the day on the weekend if the MTA would reduce the headway on these trains by adding one or two addtioal trains per hour. The cost savings would be astronomical.
Full 8 car service can begin to be restored at starting at the southern terminals(Q,W,N), northern R at around 6 am.
I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO
The reduced headway more then makes up for the increase in dwell time. This is a great way to enhance service while significantly reducing abor costs, wear and tear on equiptment. Many people avoid the subway at night and on weekends due to the increased wait time especially if they need to transer to another line
"I personally ride the Q a few nights a week and on weekends. Get out of class at 9pm. The ridership level drops fairly quickly begining at around 8 pm. The northbound trains(manhattan bound) are at most have 50% of the seats filled with 10 min headways. Those headways become 12min(5 tph) at 10 PM and 20 min(3 tph) begining at midnight. The weakend load factor even during the mid day period in manhattan on the broadway line could easily be handles with 6 min headways on both the broadway local and express utilizing 4 car OPTO"
The peak direction of riding on the Brighton Line in the evening/at night is southbound, not northbound, which would explain the light northbound loads "voiceofreason" cited. That said, however, I agree with the general premise: OPTO with short trains running somewhat more often than the full-length trains run now (though not twice as often) would save money while reducing waiting times at certain times of the day on certain routes (I don't think the Q is one of them, except maybe overnight).
David
"That said, however, I agree with the general premise: OPTO with short trains running somewhat more often than the full-length trains run now"
Well, technically, I have to agree with those here (who work for Transit) when they talk about the increased dwell times due to people having to run from both ends of the platform to get to the train. This is a big time waster.
Plus, it just wouldn't seem right. Dinky lil' four car trains? We'll should leave that for those "other" towns, such as Boston, Chicago and L.A.
There is indeed a dwell time penalty when running OPTO, because the Train Operator waits while people run for the train after waiting in the wrong spot or arriving at the top/bottom of the stairs and seeing the train several feet down/up the platform. However, that's not a reason to forego the monetary savings while at the same time increasing service frequency.
As to 'dinky little four-car trains,' NYCT and its predecessors adjusted train lengths by time of day and day of week for years...in New York City, the Big Apple, the Greatest City in the World. People would just have to get used to it again...are we saying they're that stupid?
David
The promise of increased headways seems unlikely. And there should always be a little slack in the seating capacity of New York City transit vehicles. I remember back in the 80's when there was some austerity cutback in service. Used to work on W. 54th Steet and 11th Ave. Got out of work at around one a.m. I'd walk to C.C. and take a D back to Kings Hwy. After midnight (or maybe a little earlier) the trains were four car in length. Sorry, but it made for an
uncomfortable ride. The train was jammed by the time we got to 34th Street.
A little later they lifted the austerity and it was like, whew! You could sit down for that long ride, even stretch a little. That's a quality of life issue as much as a fiscal one. At one thirty in the morning, on a subway train in the middle of Manhattan, you shouldn't have to stand all the way to the nether regions of Brooklyn.
I remember short overnight D trains as well. Yes, they were crowded, but I don't remember them being crowded all the way down the line (I, too, was getting off at Kings Highway at the time). Remember, though, that that was on a 20-minute overnight headway. If necessary, the schedule for whatever serves the Brighton Line by the time this happens (if it ever does) can be designed so the end of the day and the beginning of the next day overlap, so there can be a 10-minute headway for a while and a 20-minute headway only in the heart of the overnight period.
David
"There is indeed a dwell time penalty when running OPTO"
I see we have 2 separate "modernization" themes going on recently.
1. With more HEETs, lesser entrances can be open 24/7. This results in more platforms where people can enter from both ends even in the off hours. IND stations especially tend to have entrances at both ends.
2. With OPTO on 300' trains, labor costs can be reduced while service is improved.
The trouble is that 300' trains are a total disaster when used at stations with entrances at both ends. A 300' train leaves 150' of unused platform at each end (or more on one end and less on the other). It takes 25 seconds to walk 150' at a brisk pace.
On weekends you cannot expect customers to be regulars. The only way I can see this working is if NYCT makes extremely clear and correct permanent signs (e.g., "The back of the train ends here on Saturdays and Sundays" and "Trains do not stop here Saturdays and Sundays. Please move further back.")
What's your proposal for training New Yorkers to move to the middle of the platform when the entrances are at the ends?
4-car operation results in huge dwell times.
What purpose would this serve aside from making a lot of customers and their elected officials incredibly angry?
it would save money by cutting un needed service
The point is that they feel that it's needed.
And what about the rest of the lines, you still have the E,F,G,J/Z,L,M,N,Q,R,V & W although I don't think any of these lines need or could have a cut; especially weekends. My Q doesn't need a cut b/c the 8 minute headway is justified. Let me throw in my 2 cents for the IRT.
1/9: Skip stop could go
2: Can't do that plus you have more than enough 1's unless you're reducing that on weekends too
3: Leave it as is
4: It runs express in Brooklyn b/c of the 2 & 3
5: That's not so bad
6: Trains will back up like crazy
7: Same as 6
2- there are NOT enough 1s, not even on weekdays
4- would be switched with the 3 at all times
6/7- there would be no backups
2- there are NOT enough 1s, not even on weekdays
4- would be switched with the 3 at all times
6/7- there would be no backups
Hey, I voted for the two-dollar fare. Therefore, I'm not in favor of any reductions in the frequency of trains or the amount of maintenance and cleaning. I'm prepared to live with one manned token booth per station. No service cuts on the trains.
Too much crossing trains in front of each other if you swap the 4 and 3. My idea was this:
Weekends
1 and 3 operate local to South Ferry from 242nd and 148th respectively
2 operates express from 241st to Flatbush
4 operates to New Lots when 3 terminates at South Ferry
Good Idea.
Correction: switch 6 and 7
E,L,M,N,V,W- No changes
F-local-late nights
G-all times same as weekdays
J-No Z, Peak directions runs express
Q-night/weekend service runs via tunnel
R-All times trains run from 71st to 95th local
42S-No weekend service
Z-Cut
Why did the TA reopen the World Trade Center station on the E in January 2002, way before cleanup was complete? NYCT should have waited until the summer (May or June) when the cleanup was over before reopening the E because if the cleanup was still underway (when the station was opened), riders might have exposed to debris, dust and wreckage from the cleanup process. Also, during cleanup, foot traffic in the WTC area was restricted.
The WTC station is near the former site of 5 WTC, which was still standing after the collapse. Also, most of the REALLY heavy debris was removed by that time, making it safe to open the station.
I remembered that 5 WTC suffered some heavy damage to the upper floors, but the lower floors (includind Borders Bookstore were inctact & completely untouched). Crews took it down in 12/2001.
There was no significant health risk to being in the area of the WTC Chambers Street station at the time that it opened. The fact that crews took down one building near it is not really relevant.
The benefits of reopening access routes (especially ones not requiring automobiles) far outweigh the risks, which are negligible. In fact, the more people arriving by train, the easier it is for construction crews to continue their vital work.
This situation is no different than when the WTC was put up in the early 1970's. And it was also important for the subway to reopen and offer a sense of normality, transportation-wise. It was a smart move.
Why worry now about something that happened 13 months ago that created no problems for anyone? Allowing customers to ride the E all the way to Chambers/WTC gave addtional transit access to the area - and symbolically showed that New York was recovering from the 9/11 tragedy as soon as possible. And to someone like me who worked at WTC years ago and rode the E/A/CC regularly to/from my job, it was good to know that our subways are so well constructed that the station received no major structural damage.
Besides, even if the exit at the south end of the platform still had to be closed (and it didn't), passengers on the E could have still used the exits at the north end and the transfer to the 1/2 without interfering with any work at the site.
Exactly. I personally thought they should have opened it much earlier, sealing off the south entrance and letting people enter only from the north.
Is this possible? Doing this would mean faster service the the East River tunnels and adding more track capacity w/o major construction.
Not possible. The Montauk Branch tracks are south of the Main Line and Harold Interlocking and could not hook into the tunnels without major, disruptive, and basically useless civil engineering work. The East River tunnels are used to absolute capacity and allowing trains from the Montauk to the East River Tunnels does nothing in terms of adding additional trains into Penn. Would just creatre another choke point east of the tunnels. Rail links that look easy on a street map are usually in reality very difficult to construct.
And third rail and upgraded signalling would be needed on the Montauk Branch - another high cost that really adds nothing.
So as they say in New York, FUGGETABOUTIT!
It's already possible to go from the Montauk branch to the East River tunnels right now. Just use the Montauk cutoff and do a reverse move :-)
Speaking of weird moves - was it ever possible for the LIRR to route a train from Penn to Valley Stream via Far Rockaway? I.e., was the current far Rockaway LIRR station and the current Far Rockaway NYCTA station ever connected by track? It kinda loolks it - the two are close to each other (ironically, the obsticle is a parking lot and a supermarket / strip mall), the age of the construction sugests it (the market is 60'sish, the buildings on the sides aren't, and let's face it, the Far Rock station is in the middle of nowhere.
BTW, the M-7s are a regular occurance on the line at noon towards Far Rock. i see them every day. Sometimes they accelerate rather fast. I've also noticed the inverter noise seems to have quieted somewhat in recent days, so I wonder if they're still playing with software... You used to be able to hear them pulling out and 1/2way to Inwood no problem, now you can't.
BTW,the horn is the same as the M-3s, which sucks cause I like the M-1's better, but at least it's not a stupid 5 horn thing that everyone else uses...
They were connected until the subway takeover in 1956. In fact, the NYCTA station was built in 1958, while the LIRR station was the original station.
The original LIRR station was between the current one and where the subway station is. The shopping center across Mott Avenue from the subway station uses the land once used by the railroad station and a small holding yard (the book "The Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs" has a picture of it).
A side question: the office building that adjoins the Mott Avenue subway station greatly resembles the LIRR Jamaica station. Did the LIRR build that as well?
Phil, that was a normal run, having trains coming down the old Rockaway Branch and returning through the present day Far Rockaway Branch and vice versa. There were trains that went to Rockaway Park through the Five Towns. There was also a seperate route to Far Rockaway that bypassed Valley Stream called the Cederhurst Cutoff. There were also trains that went to Rockaway on the LIRR that came from Lower Manhattan via the Williamsburg and the Bway/Jamaica El and connected to the Atlantic LIRR line via a flyover connection in East NY. MP41's were used for that route.
Phil, you MUST get the book, Change at Ozone Park by Herbert George which tells you everything you've ever wanted to know about the Rockaway Branch but were afraid to ask!!
Sorry,not possible. No train is ever going to do a reverse move in the middle of Harold or F Interlockings. Imagine the delays! And there's no third rail on the Montauk Branch - so impossible for MU trains to use the Montauk and then go into the tunnels if it were even physically possible.
I think he means connecting the Montauk Branch to the new 63 St LIRR tunnel that's going to Grand Central. It would still involve a considerable amount of new construction.
Actually with some mainline traffic moving to the 63rd St Tunnel, there would be room (in the scheme of tunnel capacity) to put some Montauk Branch trains into NYP via the existing tunnels. But the only reason for doing this is that if the existing LIRR mainline did in fact need more capacity.
Whereas my plan to run trains to WTC would be borrowing new traffic presently carried on the Atlantic Branch.
Elias
well atlantic is going over a MASSIVE destruct-renovate-rebuid project, which may be one of the most important, as it connects the entire south brooklyn IRT lines (2,3,4,5) and entire BMT lines(Q,,M,N,R,W) to eacch other and the LIRR will not be leaving putting the billions down the drain, besides do you reallt think the MTA will build a new line when they already have an super established one with no NiMBY opposition just to give people 15 minutes less travel time to their lower manhattan jobs, and doing this while leaving flatbush open will leave less trains to all four terminals (proposed), how many passengers can you possibly come up with , say on the Babylon line which on avg 5 tph on the morning peak per station group, with one tph going to flatbush, and 4 to penn on avg, which are packed to capacity, but then if you are working on the east side, you have to make that 1 tph, and if you miss it, you must switch trains, (a no-no for people on the babylon line) or wait an hour for the next
and this is the babylon, which has the most tph, what abt the far rock or west hempstead....?
maybe im overdoing it a litte....but you get my point why it is not possible physically, not because of TA stupidity
1. No third rail would be needed with today's new cars
2. East Side Access will increase capacity into Manhattan
Grade crossings east of Fresh Pond would limit capacity. NIMBYism would also be a factor. If you're gonna spend $500 million on ESA, why not connect Montaulk to the mainline. I've seen track maps of the area. It's not THAT hard.
The Montauk branch needs a lot of work before it can be put into high capacity service.
As everybody here already knows, I'd use that line to virtually replace the Atlantic Avenue line to Flatbush! That is I'd build a new tunnel but aim it south so that it strikes Manhattan at Avenue C, and then follow that around to the World Trade Center.
Doing this however requires a total rebuild of the entire Montauk line.
It would need to be elevated, double tracked, electrified, and sound-proofed. The NIMBYs can be damned, the LIRR already owns and uses that ROW, and it is FAIR GAME for any improvements that the Railroad may require.
Elias
Doing this however requires a total rebuild of the entire Montauk line.
It would need to be elevated, double tracked, electrified, and sound-proofed. The NIMBYs can be damned, the LIRR already owns and uses that ROW, and it is FAIR GAME for any improvements that the Railroad may require.
Several grade crossings in Middle Village and Maspeth would have to go. The line east of Fresh Pond is already subway ready, sans signals and third rails. The real problem is in how the new line would interconnect with the Bushwich and Bay Ridge LIRR lines. Currently FRA regulations would prohibit freight trains and subway service sharing the same tracks.
Several grade crossings in Middle Village and Maspeth would have to go. The line east of Fresh Pond is already subway ready, sans signals and third rails. The real problem is in how the new line would interconnect with the Bushwich and Bay Ridge LIRR lines. Currently FRA regulations would prohibit freight trains and subway service sharing the same tracks.
We were not speaking of using this line as a subway line, but as an LIRR line. This is no problem.
Elias
I was responding to a post where conversion to a subway line was proposed.
I'd much rather see the Lower Montauk converted to subway, connected to one of the three B-division Manhattan-Queens tunnels (preferably 53rd since it's the closest) at the west end and connected to a new section of tunnel under Hillside which would connect to the Hillside Express tracks, thus enabling an extension out to the end of the city without adding to the Queens Blvd. mess. Perhaps it would also entail a connection to the Jamaica line.
:-) Andrew
You could sell tickets to the hearings about putting a subway through Forest Park. Would be like the Roman Coliseum.
The same people who opposed the Montauk Options of the Queens Subway Option Study 20 years ago are still around, and would behave in the same fashion to a similar proposal today.
Does the re-activation or overhaul of an existing ROW warrant the same kind of community approval a new subway would? I can't understand why those living near an existing rail line can complain about new service. The tracks were there when you bought your house.
Sure, they can complain, it *is* their right to do so. OTOH, the MTA need not listen to them, the LIRR owns the ROW, they run trains on the ROW, and they are free to upgrade the ROW.
Nobody held any hearings when the elevated the ROW through Merrick, they just did it. And let me tell you, even though I miss ground level platforms and the old grey passenger cars with their steps, the community is much better for the improvement. It actually opened up the downtown area rather than walling it off as others had feared. We used to kill off one pedestrian a month on those grade crossings, now it is safe, fast, and quiet.
And if they were to follow my proposal to route this line to WTC via Avenue C, there would be no intermediate stops, just an express run from Jamaica to WTC, so the line would have little or no impact on the neighborhood.
Elias
I don't live in the area--I just lived through the whole political process. The work that would probably be needed for the ROW (land acquisition, environmental impact, etc.) would probably be of a scope that a pretty significant outreach and input process would be needed (case in point: what's going on now for the Sunnyside Yards station).
Been proposed. Killed by the NIMBY dragon every time. Glendale and Maspeth don't want a conduit for brown people to move into their precious neighborhoods.
Been proposed. Killed by the NIMBY dragon every time. Glendale and Maspeth don't want a conduit for brown people to move into their precious neighborhoods.
Both of them have ceased to be all-white neighborhoods.
The old timers are still there, but the demographics are starting to change. Especially in Maspeth.
So...for the time being don't build any stations in those neighborhoods. Eastern Queens commuters will enjoy the "super express" effect. Perhaps in the future when some of the population joins the great NIMBY in the sky, they canm add a station or two in the area.
:-) Andrew
Perhaps in the future when some of the population joins the great NIMBY in the sky, they canm add a station or two in the area.
Somehow, I suspect - or at least hope - that the hardcore NIMBY types don't end up in the sky.
They can all go to subway hell and share a room with Moses and Hylan.
are you suggesting we go kill some NIMBYs for fun..?
That would be a fun Shoot-em-up Computer Game - 10 points for every NIMBY shot, 20 points if they're elderly, female and handbag-waving!
The Montauk Division Line to LIC would be better off converted to subway operations. If I recall, only two trains run here per weekday to LIC, but don't quote me on this. I haven't read the City Terminal Zone timetable for a few years now. Traffic for LIC can be re-routed via the Main Line and switched at Hunters Point for LIC. But from the looks of things, the line east of the Pulaski Bridge reminds me of Metro-North's Beacon Line. Barely used. Unless this line has frequent freight traffic rolling along, the line should be abandoned, converted to subway by means of steel or concrete el or open cut.
Sometimes, the NIMBY population has to realize that improvements to our transportation network is neccesary. And the neighborhoods that stretch of railroad runs through are in a bad need of a subway line. NIMBYS in Glendale and other communities along the ROW need to wake up and smell the coffee. So does the MTA. That ROW can provide good connections with current subway lines, and possibly interconnect and co-exist with them. While I would prefer it to be an IRT line, the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.).
>>>While I would prefer it to be an IRT line, the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.). <<<<
Hate to burst you bubble.
There will never be another IRT line built. It's just not fesable.
"the BMT and IND are better choices for operating service along this line( maybe a new run for the G train.)"
I'd nominate an eastern division line, such as a new branch off of the L (a branch of the Montauk goes right by the L in Williamsburg). The chances are long, so a plan with a minimal cost would be the best shot. Not much around the western section of the Montauk anyway.
The Montauk Division Line to LIC would be better off converted to subway operations. If I recall, only two trains run here per weekday to LIC, but don't quote me on this. I haven't read the City Terminal Zone timetable for a few years now.
DOn't forget however, that the line is still VERY much used for freight. It is a major part of the NYA, former LIRR freight operations. Any upgrade to subway for the Montauk branch would have to allow the continued use of it for frieght traffic. A third track would be necessary for any converison to be possible. Since FRA regulations bar the mixed track use between regular rail use, and subway use. The third track would be exclusively for frieght and LIRR deadhead or LIC moves, while the other two tracks exclusively for subway.
The only CAF cars that were on the Orange line for awhile was a 4 car train set, but last night while I was at McPherson Square waiting to come home, saw a 6 car set heading towards New Carrollton. Not sure how many others are on the Orange. Also, they have been spotted on the Blue Line here and there. It seems that there are quite a few more CAF's finally accepted and running as I saw 5104/5105 a couple of weeks ago on the Green Line. I had only seen up to the 5070's up until then.
And I saw a CAF train on the Yellow Line last Wednesday. I think every line has them except Red.
Cool, they're all over the place now!
WMATA, just WHERE did you take that picture? Sidewall Platforms... I'm guessing Crystal City or Pentagon City, and not looking much brighter than the last time I was there. (No offense, don't get me wrong, I LOVE DC and their system, but they've got a problem of dim lighting.) And yes, I'm back!
And furthermore, why does Metro have a problem discerning orange, light green (the color of the Rohr/Breda destination signs) and yellow? They don't actually bother trying to make a definite yellow color stripe on the display for yellow, which is sad, considering they went to all the trouble for Red, Orange, Green, and Blue.
BTW, do the Orange trains have a darker/lighter/different color stripe than the rest of the text in a CAF dest. sign? This seems like a case where yet again, the standard sign color could be also used for the line color for one route (light green/yellow in a Rohr/Breda's case, orange in this case). But, if they use the default orange CAF sign color for both the Yellow AND Orange Line train signs... some people will get confused.
Red is the last to see CAF cars... why am I not surprised? I figured, if anything, Red would have been THIRD since Green was first, and Yellow uses most of Green's tracks... but then again, after a possible stint in Alexandria, one may end up at Addison Road or Franconia-Springfield... then from there to Vienna... so Red WOULD logically be last. But I figured at least one train would have been routed through the old Commuter Shortcut at some point, stored overnight in Shady Grove or Brentwood Yard, and pulled out in Red revenue service LONG before they started sending them to the Blue Line.
Took it at L'Enfant Plaza. The lighting there is not as good as at the other transfer stations IMO.
I haven't seen seen CAF cars on lines other than Green and Yellow. My guess is that it is darker. On the flip dot signs on the Bredas and Rohrs, it isn't that easy to make differences between those colors. What I want to know is what will they do when the "White Line" comes into existance. The back of the green metal sign for the front of the train is all white with the word WHITE across the center in black letters.
Red Line is getting its 42 CAF cars last because it already has all 6 car trains rush hours. When the CAFs all come in, all trains should be 6 cars during rush hour. The Green Line is getting the bulk of the order. Orange gets somethign close to 2 trains, blue and yellow get about 10 cars each, snd red has 42. Green gets the rest but I am not remembering the exact numbers except for Red.
I take it they plan on sticking CAF cars on Blue/Yellow trains during low ridership periods. 10 cars each? That translates, in my guess, to two 4-car sets for each line, and an additional 2-car set for each. That also explains why BLUE and Yellow as opposed to Green an Yellow, I think Green gets more riders than blue overall (besides, Green just had an expansion 2 years ago, so it gets the royal car treatment, I guess.)
Only 2 CAF trains for Orange? That must be where the bulk of the Rohr cars are going, unless they have plans on ANOTHER addition to the fleet. The Bredas make up the majority of the car fleet, am I correct?
Of course, regarding the actual assignment of the cars, they can easily get sent elsewhere if WMATA feels like it. Green may have the bulk of the order, and Red about second place NOW... but Green shares Yellow, which shares with Blue, which connects to Orange...you see where I'm going with this? Red is likely to be the only batch of CAF cars not swapped around the system at some point or another. A train stored in Alexandria (if they do overnight storage there) could have entered from Yellow service... and be assigned to Blue the next morning. I will say, however that Orange is less likely to see much mixing, as it is quite rare that Blue consists get sent to New Carrollton or West Falls Church for storage.
L'Enfant Plaza? That's the LAST place I'd have guessed (and yes, I remember the station's design... I couldn't see evidence of the crossway is all).
I take it they plan on sticking CAF cars on Blue/Yellow trains during low ridership periods. 10 cars each? That translates, in my
guess, to two 4-car sets for each line, and an additional 2-car set for each. That also explains why BLUE and Yellow as
opposed to Green an Yellow, I think Green gets more riders than blue overall (besides, Green just had an expansion 2 years
ago, so it gets the royal car treatment, I guess.)
Essnetnailly, yes. Green got the new cars because it needed them, although in theory, they could have all gone elsewhere and the displaced cars could have been sent to Green to provide for the extension.
Only 2 CAF trains for Orange? That must be where the bulk of the Rohr cars are going, unless they have plans on ANOTHER
addition to the fleet. The Bredas make up the majority of the car fleet, am I correct?
Lately, I seem to be finding Rohrs on the Red Line more so than Blue/Orange. The hardest place to find them is Green/Yellow. Bredas do make the majority. The CAFs will allow for the 2000 and 300 Series Bredas to be rehabbed, and some have already been sent to Hornell for this rehab.
Of course, regarding the actual assignment of the cars, they can easily get sent elsewhere if WMATA feels like it. Green may
have the bulk of the order, and Red about second place NOW... but Green shares Yellow, which shares with Blue, which
connects to Orange...you see where I'm going with this? Red is likely to be the only batch of CAF cars not swapped around the
system at some point or another. A train stored in Alexandria (if they do overnight storage there) could have entered from
Yellow service... and be assigned to Blue the next morning. I will say, however that Orange is less likely to see much mixing, as
it is quite rare that Blue consists get sent to New Carrollton or West Falls Church for storage.
I see where you are going with that. I don't ride the other lines as much as Red so I don't see what goes on there as much. I did see 1234/1235 and 1236/1237 again. I have been seeing alot of those cars lately. I do believe additional training is required to operate the CAF cars, so they can't be sent just anywhere.
L'Enfant Plaza? That's the LAST place I'd have guessed (and yes, I remember the station's design... I couldn't see evidence of
the crossway is all).
I haven't been down into VA since November. I was pretty far up the platform and not near where the vaults cross. I was photographing the 5th car of a 6th car train. You can see an escalator for the exit that leads to 7th and D SW in the upper right of the picture.
This morning at around 10:40, I looked outside my apt. window and saw to my amazement, the new M-7 train heading past the Bayside train station towards the city. Does this mean we'll finally get to ride the M-7 sometime soon?
Trying to catch a 1 train at 116th Street this afternoon, a woman stuck her newspaper between the doors.
She missed the train and lost a piece of the newspaper, which was still wedged into one of the rubber thingies when I got off a few stops later.
If she had put her arm in there she would have been dragged.
Only if her arm was exceptionally thin.
People have been dragged with their arms in the doors. They don't have to have to be Twiggy.
Trying to catch a 1 train at 116th Street this afternoon, a woman stuck her newspaper between the doors.
She missed the train and lost a piece of the newspaper, which was still wedged into one of the rubber thingies when I got off a few stops later.
Would've been even funnier if she'd stuck an envelope containing important business or financial papers into the door.
Or her wallet :). Yes, it has happened.
Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them? All I got to say is, GOOD FOR HER!!!! Maybe she learn next time. When the doors are closing, let them be. There is always another train on the way.
Da Beastmaster
Why not just put the entire body between the doors. The door then cannot shut.
Not enough manual dexterity and physical cunning to do so perhaps? :P...or maybe they're just stoooooopeed.
Isn't that nice and considerate of the other thousand people on the train who got in the doors while they were wide open.
Then you get pulled out by a Transit Officer, and he writes you a $100 ticket for obstruction.
>>> Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them? <<<
Because that's the way it works in the other mass people mover — elevators!!
Tom
Why do people think that if they stick their personal belongings and/or body parts, that the door is going to automatically reopen for them?
More people probably have more experience with elevator doors than subway doors.
Elias
I think they ought to just put razor blades on the door edges.
Nothing will get dragged....and people will learn in VERY short time you DON'T hold the damn doors!!!!
I like that idea.
Nice, and they will never flip you the bird for closing the doors either.
You know, the idea that "there is always another train on the way" is fine from a detatched point of view.
But, in reality, in the moment, you will find that every door-holder has some personal horror story of having been very late for some important thing, because of a very long wait for the next train after having just missed one.
Weird delays can happen on occasion, of course; but what you must realize is that people get, in some sense, "traumatized" by these events, and their behavior gets formed by this experience. From then on, the sight of doors closing conjures up to these people the frustrating memory of that long wait on the platform which made them so embarassingly late for that important dinner date, interview, whatever. And thus is born a door-holder.
Even on the wonderful A train (which I will say is the best, most reliable line, and which has served me well for the past 15 years), I have, on occasion, experienced 30-minute waits in the morning when the normal wait is less than ten minutes. Rest assured that, on each of those days, several new door-holders were created.
Better to save your anger for those idiots who think they have purchased a "reserved" spot near the door, and refuse to move in or out when the doors open.
Ferdinand Cesarano
At least on the A (other than at 125th and 59th Sts, or where merged with the C in Brooklyn), headways are such that a 20 second door holding doesn't have serious effects.
On the Lex and on Queens Blvd, door holders as a class cause immense amounts of time to be lost for the commuting public. They reduce the feasible frequency of trains (increasing crowding) and generate serious backups (meaning that while you're standing in your packed train you're hardly moving).
It's amazing the woman didn't use her laptop to force the doors from closing on her. I've seen stollers (with babies in them, no less), bags, legs etc. For some people, losing a $1,500 laptop to catch a train is plain stupid.
One day I saw a woman at S/B 34th st/BMT express platform, trying to catch a R68 Q local, when her foot got caught on the door (delibate, of course). Two men came up to her and flagged the conductor to reopen the doors, while trying to free the woman trapped on the doors (I was too far down, but I was able to see the men trying to free her.) The doors reopened. thank God, but she NEVER thanked the men who probably saved her life. The men were complaining about that too. Very ungrateful for that woman, who could've been dragged by the train.
Stupid people galore.
I've seen people throw their pocketbooks & bags between train doors, shows people have no patience to wait for the next train.
Not to mention strollers, with kids in them! I was waiting in an idling 7 train heading to Queensboro Plaza, during the weekend GO that has been going on for the last 3 weeks. These 2 mothers with kids in the strollers boarded on. The first got on in time, but the doors started to close!
The second one did a dumb decision and actually sticked the stroller between the doors! Really, compromising your own child for saving time on a train. Real smart, lady...
I felt like wanting to slap her but I'm not dumb.
I've seen women put strollers with babies in them between closing doors, too. I think each and every one of these women should be cited by ACS and be "fixed" because they clearly show no regard for the baby's life. Putting a baby in the path of moving machinery is GROSS NEGLIGENCE. I wonder if NYPD's Transit Division arrests them when a cop witnesses it? BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?
"BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?"
I hope that was not the case on Atlantic Ave yesterday afternoon. I was driving on Atlantic towards that direction when that nasty accident happened. My condolesces to the families of the victims.
Da Beastmaster
To think there actually were days when people would stop
and coo into a baby carriage...... :(
"BTW I've also seen women put strollers out into traffic when waiting to cross the street. What the @$*# are they thinking?"
I hope that was not the case on Atlantic Ave yesterday afternoon. I was driving on Atlantic towards that direction when that nasty accident happened. My condolesces to the families of the victims.
Da Beastmaster
The thing is,NO ONE should be holding the doors whatsoever!But hey that's what the stupid people get for being in such a rush to catch a train like its the last one of the day and no more are gonna show up.
Now please,don't tell me to not call people stupid when they do that cause I'm gonna hear none of it.In my book,people who hold doors or rush for the trains when there's no need to or ask the dumbest question's you'll ever hear....are stupid.No question's asked.No but's,and's or if's.Those are the people that will NEVER learn.Same thing goes for those who make a mad dash to the express train from the local train and only get off after skipping 2 or 3 local stops thinking they've saved 5 or 10mins when in reality they saved diddly squat.
I like what you think. I just wished everyone else thought that! Many people who hate the V train don't believe what you think... Pretty ironic, huh?
Sucks to be them.Like everyone else,they fail to appreciate something that is good for them even if they were staring at it from point blank range.
Yeah...
The ride is only an extra 5...
I took it from Manhattan. Very reliable!
Same thing goes for those who make a mad dash to the express train from the local train and only get off after skipping 2 or 3 local stops thinking they've saved 5 or 10mins when in reality they saved diddly squat.
I've noticed that taking the express vs. the local often gives an impression of major time savings even when the reality's different.
LMAO! She's lucky that all she lost was a paper, given that kind of incompetance.
Philadelphians aren't any better, earlier this year I was on the MFL at city hall and a guy tried to get on my car as the door opened by putting his water bottle in the door. It must have been open, and he had managed to swing it up by the cap, so that it pointed outward, the doors never saw it and there was an explosive burst of water soaking him and his wool sweater. The best part was the guy standing next across from the door in question, a huge black dude, just erupted in laughter, and the whole car got a good laugh out of his idiocy. The bottle remained wedged in the door until 30th st where sombody knocked it down as they got off.
Just today I saw somebody walk into a door on the Subway Surface lines at 19th. The car pulled in and the usual number of people got off, about 4 or 5. A kid dressed in commerce bank clothes, seated in the last row with his friends yells, suddenly jumps up and runs to the rear set of door just as they start beeping. The trolley's rear doors are passenger operated, so long as somebody is standing down in the steps a weight switch is activated and the doors will stay open. They also slam shut really fast once the beeping has stopped. This guy happened to be unlucky enough to not trip the weight sensor as he took a flying leap down from the car level. The weight switch seems to be in the last 2 steps, and he missed both of those and reached the door just as it was closing. It turns out that the door motors are plenty strong enough to resist the force of a healthy teenager moving at at least running speed. The guy stumbled back to his friends, who were in hysterics, got off with me at 15th, and ran to catch a trolley going the other way. Almost makes me wonder if the car needed work done to it's rear most pair of doors. I know it was a 13 from Yeadon with the old blue and red mid-body strip, but didn't catch the number.
About a year ago I saw a man on an R46 E (I don't recall the station) place a thick book between the doors while they were closing. (Large, Pocket-sized, 2-inches) There weren't any crowds of people, nor on the train, but the doors couldn't close which leaves only the conductor to open the doors again for the man to board the train.
If the woman put a single-wedged newspaper between the doors, she should've known the doors will still completely close giving the signal to the motorman. If it was an entire Sunday paper, that would be a different story.
Even SUBWAY CAR DOORS gotta read the Nooz, brah!!
what makes a subway ride a good ride?
what factors are there in good ride?
and what is the best line in terms of the easiest ride from 34th to points in outer boroughs
I think the with R-68s would make the best line, quiet, smooth, not-bouncy train, large 75' cars, on its private ROW south of dekalb on a express line with no timers,
now thats a good ride
I would think a "good ride" is one that wasn't memorable. You get from here to there without anything happening.
SmugglerBuddy what a animal you are ! There are not many who love the Hippos.
And the Douce Man does make a good point, i.e. from a commuter's point of view.
Me I like the rocking & rolling, the feeling of speed, the screech of the wheels, etc. But then I ride the subways for fun vs. just an ends to a means.
The average commuter doesn't care about the good ride. They are too busy getting to/from work and are in a hurry to do so.
Precisely. That's why I hate posters on here who complain about the lack of difference once all of the current rolling stock is replaced and the existence of no more railfan window. The MTA caters to commuters, not railfans.
I was thinking about this, and I realized that, for me, the things that make for a "good ride" are negative -- the LACK of certain things. I guess this reveals that I just really take pleasure in riding the subway. The subway ride has always been among the "good" part of the day for me, as opposed to work, which is the "bad" part.
Sure, individual seats and openable end doors are preferable to bench seats and locked end doors. But, those points are not make-or-break for me. So, for me, just about any ride is a "good ride", unless it is marred by:
* too much light (such as in those horrible R142s)
* loud automated announcements (again, damn those R142s)
* shouting idiot preachers
* strollers (it isn't the KIDS that I mind, just the strollers)
* arrogant door-blockers
Also, one thing that I really miss -- something that would surely have been part of my definition of a "good ride" from several years ago -- is those short periods when the lights used to go out. I remember this happening frequently on the E and F on Queens Blvd. when I was a kid. I found that so comforting, and I wish it still happened. Whatever they did to "fix" that "problem" also "fixed" a great deal of charm.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I think a good ride usually isn't picture perfect, you have a train that rocks, goes very fast, you get my drift. And it depends on how the person's perspective is when describing a "good" ride. BTW, you should of said R32's ;-).
The 7 appears to be superior way to get from westside IRT to/from eastside IRT:
* much less walking
* trains aren't crush loaded
Though the shuttle:
* probably has more TPH (true?)
* and is the quicker route to/from GCT
If this is true, it would seem that NYCT should encourage people to use the 7 between the trunk lines (signage, for example). Would improve things for them, and those left on the S.
Actually it would be best if they had more or less equal loads. Conceivably by your argument if they encouraged more people to take the (7) over the (S) that would work towards that goal. But I'm not sure that the (7) does indeed have less "crush loads". I've often found it to be packed to the gills during rush hours.
I suppose we could kind of look at the (7) as the 42nd St local and the (S) as the 42nd Street express. And with so little difference between local and express--less than even 6th Ave--the purpose of such an alignment is increased capacity. It might be good if the two lines had cross-platform transfers. Better still if the (S) continued to Queens and became the Flushing Express, in which case we could call it the (8). And better still if the Flushing IRT were four-track, and connected to the other IRTs. But uh...not gonna happen.
:-) Andrew
"I've often found it to be packed to the gills during rush hours."
Why I posted - could be that my premise is wrong. I'm not a daily rider. But the 11 car 7 seems to always be civilized leaving Times Square. It fills up more at GCT, then it really loads up at Queensboro plaza. On the other hand, the 3 or 4 car S is almost always crush loaded. Almost as if they wait until no one else can get in before they finally move.
Actually, if another bullet would be used, it would be 11. It is signed on the R62/A as purple. Heh, they're craps.
Yeah. I know. The folks who planned the rollsign colors above # 7 on the R62 and R62A were probably on something. Those color/number groupings are BIZZARE!
:-) Andrew
"The 7 appears to be superior way to get from westside IRT to/from eastside IRT:
* much less walking"
Less walking but more vertical distance. My gut feel is that it takes more time to take the 7. I could be wrong, though.
I took the 7 until I realized that the NYC Subway Olympics works like this:
Mike: 0
Escalator Department: 1
The S [Times Sq shuttle] has no stop at 5 Av, making it more convenient than the 7 although both of them have heavy crowds. Shuttle is every 5 minutes during the day, 2-3 minutes in the rush hour.
In my commuting career I've had 2 times when I had to go crosstown on 42nd Street. Both times I found the Shuttle to be a better choice.
Once was coming down from the Upper East Side to the Penn Station area. Here the timing was about the same for the 7 or S as long as the 7 was running smoothly. However, if you got down to the 7 platform and there had been a delay out in Queens, you were sunk. Even if there were a problem on the S (never happened to me, and would seem rare, since it's really 3 independent lines) you were only one level below the street and walking in the direction you needed to go.
Nowadays, I often come in to Penn Station and need to catch Metro North at GCT. Usually, I'm going against the rush hour flow. I find that it's much easier to get to the Metro North area from the S than from the 7.
CG
Maybe the answer is more frequent headways on the S. I think they are contemplating a re-design at the Times Square end, and that could help too.
Of course, extending the 7 to Penn Station could really shift traffic away from the S, if that happens. I haven't seen the estimate of how many people take the westside IRT then S from Penn to the GCT area, but it has to be substantial.
I work in the Chrysler building annex. I thinks it depends where your coming from on the East side. The 7 has entrances on 42nd ST just off Third Avenue, at Lexington and inside Grand Central. The shuttle's eastside terminal is just north of Grand Central under Vanderbilt & Madison Avenues. The 7 has many 11 car trains running on frequent headways while the shuttle at most has a total of 10 cars running on three tracks.
Excuse: I meant west of Grand Central for the shuttle's eastside terminal
Here is how I look at it:
Pros to the 7:
Frequent service weekdays
Less walking
Redbirds (not for long)
Cons to the 7:
Very deep!
Not in the best location at Times Square
Pros to the S:
Fewer stairs/escalators
Stops closer to other lines at Times Square
Cons to the S:
Not as frequent weekday rush hours and middays
Lots of walking at Grand Central
More crowded
No railfan window
Great writeup, photos, and track diagram on the NEC "fastest, busiest, world-class Northeast Corridor".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Is that super railroad #3? I know way back when #1 was ATSF, but that featured a warbonneted F unit on the cover, so it must go back a ways. Then more recently UP got #2, after they swallowed C&NW and finally got a solid link to the Chicagoland area (it doesn't get much more solid than 3 lines and Proviso Yard).
I guess it's nice that the NEC gets some props, it's certainly about damn time. I'd like to think that it will encourage the building of catenary around the country, but trains ain't exactly a trade journal, and many people see the NEC's nest of wires and shudder at the thought of trying to do that with their trains.
There is also a photo story on the LIRR original "double deckers" in the current issue of Classic Trains. I use quotes on purpose--read the article for the reason.
Is that super railroad #3? I know way back when #1 was ATSF, but that featured a warbonneted F unit on the cover, so it must go back a ways. Then more recently UP got #2, after they swallowed C&NW and finally got a solid link to the Chicagoland area (it doesn't get much more solid than 3 lines and Proviso Yard).
I guess it's nice that the NEC gets some props, it's certainly about damn time. I'd like to think that it will encourage the building of catenary around the country, but trains ain't exactly a trade journal, and many people see the NEC's nest of wires and shudder at the thought of trying to do that with their trains.
Was anyone here at today's public hearing at the Roosevelt Hotel? I was there for the first 45 minutes or so, and I got to hear three elected officials who exceeded the three-minute limit per speaker by a factor of about five. I was hoping to hear some innovative ideas, but I didn't hear much beyond "don't raise the fare" and "don't close the booths." Next time I'll show up later in the program, when the common folk are given the opportunity to speak; some of them may have interesting comments.
I wasn't there, but I heard a story about it on WINS. The reporter played a tape of one speaker talking about how MTA "promised" not to cut service if the fare were to go to $2 and then tried to renege on that "promise." He was accompanied by a chorus of boos for the MTA Board. The speaker was not named in the WINS piece, but it sounded an awful lot like Gene Russianoff.
I've been to some of these things, and it bugs me that the politicians and the Straphangers' Campaign people get moved to the front of the speakers' line and get to blather on while their sycophants cheer or boo as appropriate, while Joe Rider gets to sit there fuming for hours until it's his turn to speak (or he gets frustrated and goes home).
David
Let me see if I can defend Mr. Russianoff. There are facts upon which we will not all agree, but here goes.
The MTA presented three possible fare/toll increases, one of which was not supposed to involve service cuts, but did require additional subsidies. Those subsidies seem unlikely, given the shape of the governor's budget proposal for the next fiscal year. Regardless, they may not show up until the budget is passed in March, April, May, June, whenever.
The token booth closings are perceived by the majority of people as service cuts. We've been through the debate a little on the board.
The hearings are not about a specific plan to close the MTA budget gap but rather a range of possible fare/toll/ticket price increases. Similarly, the token booth closing, according MTA Executive Director Katherine Lapp, are not a done deal. As a result of the hearings, some may be saved. I would imagine that if the Legislature and the Governor agree on a small subsidy increase (in the $20 million neighborhood) specifically to keep the booths open, they won't close at all. Seems unlikely. (I think it was done one year to eliminate some OPTO use.)
What is bugging Russianoff and others is that it seems as though the $2.00 fare/20% average fare and ticket increase option, I think it was Option B, was a red herring. It was almost impossible, and, even if the added subsidies were forthcoming, the MTA was likely to close a bunch of booths anyway as part of their general philosophy of phasing out booths as anything more than information centers. Yet, the MTA paraded out Option B as a realistic option if only people would accept a $2 fare.
Another thing bothering the politicians is how the MTA pretended their finances were fine a year ago, with the governor running for reelection, when they knew that $600 of the budget came from one-shot money.
Marc, THANKS for putting it together like that, saves ME from having to explain it and be blamed for making it "political." But yes, you're RiGHT on the money. Add to the mix that the STATE is looking to LOOT MTA, Port Authority, and all the other "revenue agencies" they can get their fingers around, and yeah, tough times ahead no matter what the plans of the MTA at this point.
And folks SHOULD bear in mind that UNTIL the budget is done over the summer, ALL of this is just "study group" stuff. MTA will need to decide once they get REAL numbers. The "budget" only tells agencies what to expect. If the PUBLIC actually bothers to rise up and grab some politico NECK, then all of this can change. LACKING public concern, then what you're seeing IS the plan unless altered ...
Baaaaaaa .... baaaaaaaa ... or maybe not.
"Yet, the MTA paraded out Option B as a realistic option if only people would accept a $2 fare."
Anything I read in the papers about Option B was very factual. Basically, "We can prevent service cuts with a $2 fare and slight additional subsidies." I saw no claims that they actually believed those subsidies were forthcoming.
I didn't see an Option D, maintain the current fare for another year with $800 million in subsidies, or Option E, cut the nominal fare to $1.25 with a couple of billion dollars in subsidies. Somewhere on the board, there was a discussion of Option F, free transit.
The MTA is a creature of the governor's office. Because they knew or should have known that increased subsidies were not forthcoming given the state's and the city's fiscal crises, they shouldn't have trotted out Option B. They used it as a feint to make a $2 fare palatable.
Personally, I think that they should have been up front about everything: how much they are in the hole this year and next and the exact effect of each option (ie: closing a rush hour booth saves X dollars; raising the average fare 10% would bring in Y dollars, and presenting various options of increasing the cost of different MetroCards to get that percentage increase).
I wasn't really headed toward Russianoff-bashing or Straphangers' Campaign-bashing. The main thrust of my post (or at least where I was trying to head) was that the politicians and "transit celebrities" go to the head of the line at these hearings, and the public doesn't get to be heard for several hours, assuming they don't give up and go home first. A secondary thrust is that these groups are all in league with each other (not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself) and that they put on what amounts to a dog-and-pony show for the media when they go to public hearings, causing actual members of the riding public to be ignored by the media.
David
After noticing water flowing down the center basin between tracks on the G line yesterday, i found myself stumped by a few questions:
1. Once this water hits a drainage area, where's the dividing line between what pipes are MTA responsibility and what's the DEP's territory?
2. How is normal (i.e. non-flood conditions) drainage accomplished in ballasted track areas?
3. Finally, in embankments and open cuts, what kind of infrastructure is/was put in place to prevent the land from buckling due to rain or other weather conditions?
Thanks!
::D
Type 1 (conventional ballasted) track, as it exists in a subway
tunnel, is actually sitting in a u-shaped tub of concrete called
the "invert". There are drain pipes at the base of the invert
which collect water and bring it to "ejector rooms" which
pump it up to the nearest sewer line.
Outdoors, the same principles are followed as on any railroad.
Below the ballast crown is another crown of sub-ballast. Water
will tend to filter through the ballast layer and then flow
downhill towards the edge of the embankment, where it is collected
by french drains, perforated PVC pipe, or the like.
What is the street location of Grover Cleveland HS in Ridgewood?
What would be the best and quickest way to get there from Penn Station using subway, bus or both?
E to Queens Plaza then take Q39 bus to Forest Ave.
DaRidgewood would know where it is for sure. But to get to the neighborhood, that's the best way to go.
#711 Q39
DaRidgewoodBusBuff would know the location for sure, hopefully he sees your post.
Grover Cleveland @ 21-27 Himrod St, it's a short walk from Metropolitan Ave.
From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn. Go outside take Metropolitan/Grandview branch of B38 to last stop, it's near Linden Hill cemetary. Do not take the Seneca branch of B38 bus.
***[From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn.]***
Hows about, take the L train to Grand Street & takes the Q54 Metropolitan Avenue Bus
to the east side of Linden Hill Cemetary and walks up the hill. The B38 Dekalb Avenue last stop is on the west side of the Cemetary. I'm sure the bus operator will put him off on the right stop for Grover Cleveland High School.
;-) Sparky
Yes I though about it too later on, pick up bus by side of Eastern District H.S., when exiting station, use the left staircase facing the token/Metrocard booth. Diagonally opposite Chase use the Q54 for Metropolitan Ave to the stop before Forest Ave.
Thanks my GG partner.
DAVID
Thank you all for your help! I will pass the info on to my friend. I will recommend the L and the Q-54.
I made the trip to Grover Cleveland HS once about 50 years ago. I lived in Cypress Hills then, and it seems to me that I took the B-13 over from there.
It's been too many years amd I can't remember whether I changed buses or walked the rest of the way. Making the trip once so many years ago did not make a lasting impression on me, and I couldn't remember exactly where the school was.
Thanks Again! :-)
***[I made the trip to Grover Cleveland HS once about 50 years ago. I lived in Cypress Hills then, and it seems to me that I took the B-13 over from there.]***
At that time, from Cypress Hills, if starting at Jamaica Avenue &
Crescent Street, you may have taken the B-18. Have to look at an
older Brooklyn Bus Map later, to find the Northern Terminal of the
Old B-13 route. The B-18 has been eliminated & the B-13 rerouted
and extended to Graham & Metropolitan Avenues. But one of the
oddities of the rerouting of the B-13 from Ridgewood to
Williamsburgh is that portions of the route are the same as the
"Bushwick Avenue" Street Car Line, abandoned without replacement in 1947/8.
Kool D, my Brighton Buddy, the reason I remembered the now Q-54
Metropolitan Avenue Bus, was that when I was of High School age,
the guys & gals from Greenpoint attending GCHS, bitched about the
double fare, since there was not a free transfer to the then B-53
Metropolitan Avenue Bus. That goes back to BRT Days of various
underlying companies holding the franchise. MetroCard transfers
eliminated that sheet, 100+ years later.
;-) Sparky
I would always be glad to help anyone, if I'm able to. You are most welcome Mr. Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown "GG" line.
Sparky, IIRC the northern terminal of B-13 was Wyckoff & Gates, right outside the Ridgewood office of the then Hamburg Savings Bank. The bus proceeded to Myrtle, then Linden back to Wyckoff. The B-13 would start its return trip to Old Mill from Linden and Wyckoff.
I was the messenger for HSB in 1954, and had to make two trips each day between Cypress Hills, Ridgewood and the HSB main office, which was a few blocks down Myrtle at 1451. I just can't remember where I got off for the one time Grover Cleveland trip.
Karl,
If the route was similar to what was the B-13 south from Wyckoff &
Gates, I would hazard a guess at Onderdonk Avenue & Gates for
Grover Cleveland from the B-13.
On the lastest Brooklyn Bus Map for the B-13 prior to the merger
with the B-18, it looped Gates & Myrtle to Wyckoff to Palmetto to
St. Nicholas to Gates or visa verse. Didn't use Linden Street
for turn about. The Southbound B-18 used Linden from Wyckoff to
Cypress.
Also another footnote in reference to the Bushwick Avenue Streetcar
Line, they ran from Myrtle & Wyckoff via Myrtle to Bushwick & North.
The B-13 Bus goes from Wyckoff & Gates via Wyckoff to Flushing Ave
to Bushwick Avenue. But it also covers a portion of another abandoned
Streetcar Route, the "Union Avenue" car line traveled from
Throop Avenue on Flushing to Knickerbocker Avenue & south to Myrtle
and then to Myrtle & Wyckoff.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
I sure don't remember this B-18 bus from 1954. Is it posssible it was created after that?
I had to walk from Wyckoff and Gates to Myrtle, and then down Myrtle to the main office. I don't remember a streetcar in 1954, but that's not saying that there couldn't have been one there. My messenger job was only from March to September in 1954, and then I got promoted.
Karl
Karl,
The B-18 Wyckoff Avenue bus was there for many years. It has been a
Bus Line dating back to the late twenties, early thirties. IIRC.
The streetcar lines mentioned "Bushwick Avenue" abandoned 1947/48.
The "Union Avenue" line, was shifted over to Lorimer Street when
the IND (GG) was built under Union Avenue. Have to look up what
was the date of abandoment. Not to be confused with "Union Street".
Brooklyn had both and not related to each other.
You remember the Lexington Avenue El and rode same. I just remember
passing under it on Franklin Avenue on either a Streetcar or Trolley
Coach. Never rode the Lex El in Brooklyn.
We have different memoirs from Brooklyn. But you've got 4 years on me.
;-) Sparky
Grover Cleveland @ 21-27 Himrod St, it's a short walk from Metropolitan Ave.
From Penn Station, take any Downtown train to 14th st, change there for L train to Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn. Go outside take Metropolitan/Grandview branch of B38 to last stop, it's near Linden Hill cemetary. Do not take the Seneca branch of B38 bus.
FOOTNOTE: I checked the latest on the Dept. of Education web site, and Grover Cleveland is not listed under High Schools. The name of the school may have changed since the last time you visited there.
Grover Cleveland is still in operation--it's listed in the city's official directory. Today's Newsday carries the obituary of their previous principal.
Another one for the books!!!
-Stef
I've decided to hold off Chicago sidetrip cuz my 10 year old son asked me to wait so he can go with me later time (perhaps Summer?) Now, I'm trying to decide which routing I should go for...
Tampa-Atlanta-St. Louis-Kansas City-Denver (can visit Atlanta and St Louis rail systems)
-OR-
Tampa-New Orleans-Dallas-Denver (can visit New Orleans' trolley and Dallas' DART systems)
I'm driving a one way rental truck to bring my mother-in-law stuff to Colorado in a couple of weeks (Feburary 20th-March 1st) I'd also would like to know where are safe place to park the truck at any Park-n-Ride lots. I'd also like to know any transit-related things to do in these cities.
Thanks in Advance!
Michael Calcagno
Do not forget that Denver has a LRT. Tampa has a streetcar line that links downtown to Ybor City. If you go to Dallas, you can ride TRE commuter train to Fort Worth, and Las Colinas office complex in suburban Irving has its own people mover.
JSD,
Yes, I will visit Tampa's Trolley before I hit the road. I know Denver have LRT because I live near Denver! :-)
Michael Calcagno
>>> I'm driving a one way rental truck ....I'd also would like to know where are safe place to park the truck at any Park-n-Ride lots <<<
If you have a U-Haul or any other national franchise, your best bet is to ask a local franchise owner to allow you to park it on his lot. It is not conspicuous there. Parking it at a Park-n-Ride lot may make it a target for thieves. If you have to park it in a parking lot, be sure it is attended and tip the attendant in advance.
Tom
Here's something odd. I found a picture on the NERail photo archive site of an open car sitting on an MBTA flatcar (I guess) in 1997. The open car is painted in Connecticut Company colors, although it isn't lettered for any railroad. The number of the car is #1752, which doesn't appear in any of my records. Is this ConnCo #1414 en route to Lake Compounce? (I hadn't heard that #1414 had been renumbered, but what do I know?) Or, is it actually ConnCo #1752? If the latter, does anyone know who owns the car or where it is currently? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
No, it's not 1414. ConnCo 1752 wasn't even an open car.
I suspect this is one of Seashore's open cars painted up and
sent down to Boston for the 100th anniversary of the Park
St. subway. Maybe Todd Glickman knows (but you'll have to
wait for an "8" :)
I suspect this is one of Seashore's open cars painted up and
sent down to Boston for the 100th anniversary of the Park
St. subway.
Precisely; it's a Connecticut car from Seashore. 1752 was the first car to run in the Boston subway, hence the renumbering.
Now what's it's real number? :)
***[Now what's it's real number? :)]***
CONNCO 1391.
:\) Sparky
Roger that, Sparky. (And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 1391.)
Roger that, Sparky. (And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 838.)
Glad you corrected yourself and not on the eights. But how about
the premier open car in Trolley Preservation ~ the one that started
it all. Biddeford & Saco #31.
;-) Sparky
Ah, it all becomes clear to me now. Thanks for the info on #1391.
"And for those who are interested, our others are 303 and 838."
And 1468? I don't know much about that car, I don't remember seeing it...
Frank Hicks
It's on our roster, but not operational. It was built in 1911 by Osgood Bradley Car Co., and is a 75-seat (15 bench) double-ender. Seashore acquired it in 1948.
I can't recall off the top of my head which barn it's in, or what condition. Perhaps one of my colleagues recalls.
Todd,
I gather when Frank visited in 2000, he was not shown the jewels of the collection in "Fairview" a/o "Central". Even at Branford, we have
such a jewel, CONNCO #614 in "Blossom" Carhouse.
Branford's other opens are:
CONNCO #1414 is on lease at Lake Compounce, Bristol, Conn.
CONNCO #1425 was repainted for the tricentennial of Yale University
and displayed at the Yale Bowl. Awaiting funding for mechanical work.
CONNCO #401, fully restored cosmetically and displayed in the Quonset Carhouse.
Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550.
Eighty CONNCO opens remained on the roster thru 1947 in New Haven for
Yale Bowl service & 56 years after the last run, ten are located in
three New England Trolley Museums.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
"Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550."
Slight correction, at Warehouse Point I think you ment 355 & 1550.
355 has the best chance of going back in service. She's in the "Kelly Barn" where ther public can easily see her.
Last year the two open cars in use there were:
- 1850 from RIO, a 1912 13 bencher, she's similar to the ConnCo cars
- 4 from Montreal, a 1924 touring car, she's also topless < g >
Todd,
I gather when Frank visited in 2000, he was not shown the jewels of the collection in "Fairview" a/o "Central". Even at Branford, we have
such a jewel, CONNCO #614 in "Blossom" Carhouse.
Branford's other opens are:
CONNCO #1414 is on lease at Lake Compounce, Bristol, Conn.
CONNCO #1425 was repainted for the tricentennial of Yale University
and displayed at the Yale Bowl. Awaiting funding for mechanical work.
CONNCO #401, fully restored cosmetically and displayed in the Quonset Carhouse.
Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550.
Eighty CONNCO opens remained on the roster thru 1947 in New Haven for
Yale Bowl service & 56 years after the last run, ten are located in
three New England Trolley Museums.
;-) Sparky
I think you mean 840 at Warehouse Point
Yup; 838 is at Seashore (or at least was last time the yard wasn't covered with snow & ice :-)
OOOPS!!! I stand corrected. That's what I meant.
838 ~ Seashore,
840 ~ Warehouse Point.
;-) Sparky
"Representing the opens at Connecticut Trolley Museum are:
CONNCO 838 & CONNCO 1550."
Thanks for the list... although isn't 838 at Seashore? (I know of ConnCo 663/355 and 840 at CTM.)
Anyway, I was wondering about 1550 too. I didn't see that car when I visited Warehouse Point in 2000, and I have no idea what its condition or location is. Also, CTM claims that it acquired the car in 1977 - does anyone know who they acquired it from? ...help? :-)
Frank Hicks
Oh, I guess I should have corrected both halves of John's
sentence :)
ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley. It doesn't appear on your
roster It served on the Waterbury division. After service
quit it was sold to a camp in Westfield CT. The body snatchers
acquired it ca 1977-1979.
The other servicable open car at CTM is 1850 which is not
on your roster but with good reason: it is from Rio.
***[ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley. It doesn't appear on your
roster]***
ConnCo 1550 does appear on Frank's roster listed as an open car.
That's where I got that car number from and didn't scroll down
further to see 355.
But pardon my other misprints, just checkin to see if I'm being read. >GG<
:-) Sparky
"ConnCo 1550 is not an open car. It is a closed car,
built 1911 by Osgood-Bradley."
Oops. Thanks - I'll correct the list. I wonder if I can get any additional info from the CERA site...
Frank Hicks
From the CERA site...I doubt it.
Here's what I know about the car:
Built 1911 by Osgood Bradley, order #5014. Original number 194.
Renumbered 1550 in 1915. Owned by Connecticut Railway & Lighting
1936-1937 (essentially a legal technicality). Sold in 1937
to a camp in Westfield CT. Acquired ca 1979 by CT Trolley Museum
as a body only. Condition: poor.
Car is wooden with a deck roof. It had (when a complete car)
four GE80 motors, STD O-50 trucks, CP-27 compressor, straight
air brake, K-35G controller, weight 47,600 lbs.
Jeff, thanks for the info. Out of the VAST array of properties I know virtually nothing about, ConnCo stands out as the one I'd most like to learn more on. I've tried to find a book with a good roster, but without much luck - any titles you can suggest? Also, where did you get your ord# data? Some books list those, but most don't and they're generally hard to find.
Frank Hicks
The best equipment book is Connecticut Company Streetcars.
Sadly, like the BRT trolley lines, no one has ever written
a thorough and scholarly history of ConnCo. Another picture
book, hopefully with very accurate captions, may be forthcoming
in about a year.
Many years ago one of our founding members compiled the all-time
ConnCo roster on index cards, going through available ConnCo
records at the time plus some data from car builders. One
of our members over the past few years has translated that roster
into a database and added addition information that has come to
light in the past 50 years. I might try to make that available
on our web site one of these days.....though if you think that
the PNAERC database has a somewhat limited audience imagine how
niche-oriented a ConnCo roster database would be!
I feel an "8" coming on.
Yes, it was Seashore's.... it was loaned to the MBTA a few years back in celebration of the system's 100th anniversary. The car was put on exhibit at South Station, sitting on one of the terminal tracks behind velvet ropes with descriptive signage. Somewhere at home I have pictures of the media event.
I found a picture on-line at NETransit. Here it is.
It may be sucessful at jamaica because of the quick direct ride to midtown, one stop after jamaica and maybe GCT too
suppose you are traveling on business to nyc, and you have one suitcase that rolls and you get to JFK, get on the airtrain just outside the terminal, goto jamaica, get on the LIRR platform to penn or (GCT which may be if everything goes as planned), 20-25 min you are in midtown, you goto your destination, get back on the LIRR goto jamaica check in you and your luggage at jamaica, be at JFK 30-40 min later, already checked
alot faster compared to the A train
Let's separate the airline traveller into 3 distinct segments. The first is an incoming traveller for a daytime business meeting, carrying only an attache case. The second is an incoming traveller for an extended business trip, with the luggage you described. The third is an outgoing traveller.
The first is interested in getting to his appointment site as quickly as possible. If this site is near Penn Sta, Howard Beach or Jamaica then AirTrain will be useful. If the appointment is somewhere else e.g. Long Island, then a limousine or car rental would be more useful.
The second has more time. This traveller wants to get to the hotel and chuck the luggage, change, sleep, etc. Most midtown hotels are no longer close to Penn Sta. It's probably a wash as to whether the AirTrain-LIRR-taxi trip would be quicker than a direct airport limo or taxi.
The third is a New Yorker going on a trip. This traveller is most likely leaving from home, not business. Again, direct transit from his home to the airport will more likely be quicker than first going to Penn Sta for the LIRR to the AirTrain.
It's not likely that many business travelers will be heading to appointments near Howard Beach or Jamaica. Most of them probably will be going to Manhattan, to sites which may or may not be near Penn Station. Whether or not they will use AirTrain over a taxi will depend to some extent on just how close to Penn they'll be, but mostly, in my opinion, on their familiarity with the NYC subway, the LIRR, and transit in general. Remember that your average business traveler from elsewhere in the United States may know little or nothing about using commuter trains or subways. Taking a taxi might just be easier from the viewpoint of such a person, especially if the company's picking up the tab.
Now, business travelers coming to New York from other countries probably will be much more accustomed to using trains and subways, but most of them are likely to have more luggage than their domestic counterparts.
Currently true; in 4-5 years there will be a conference center for them at Jamaica Station. That makes it a new ballgame.
JFK really isn't a destination for most domestic business travel. Other than flights from the west coast, domestic business travel to New York is done through LGA and Newark.
Of the three types of passengers that Stephen described, type 1 doesn't really exist at JFK.
Airtrain will be good for certain New Yorkers travelling as individuals or small groups. Unless the hotel chains move JFK's satellite hotels from their current cluster along the Belt Parkway up to Jamaica (where they would be a lower cost alternative to Manhattan). That's probably a good deal of time away.
CG
CG
JetBlue is bringing more shorter-distance domestic flights to JFK. While B6 markets itself mainly to leisure travelers, I've no doubt that its low fares may appeal to the more cost-conscious business travelers too. So even though LGA and EWR indeed handle most domestic business travel, JFK's share is likely to rise.
Case in point. I flew this AM from JFK to Seattle. Once I landed, I had a 25 minute drive to my hotel and I'll have a 30 minute drive to my first meeting tomorrow. Jet Blue serves that route, but the only flight leaves JFK at 8 PM and arrives in Seattle at 11 PM (i.e. 2 AM eastern time). That's not really a great schedule for a business traveller (I'm not sure it's a great schedule for anyone...). The only flight they have back from Seattle is a red-eye, leaving at midnight and arriving back at 8 AM. Ugh.
The other issue with Jet Blue for the business traveller is that they don't really fly anywhere other than JFK. From Seattle, I'm on to San Fran and then to Baltimore before returning to NY on Wednesday (on Amtrak). So even if I took them to Seattle, I'd need to take a bunch of one way flights on some other airlines which -- for reasons generally unknown to modern man -- can be ridiculously expensive.
JFK probably won't ever be a big domestic business travel airport. Departure slots between 5 PM and 9 PM are clogged with European flights leaving too few slots for the flexibility business travelers need.
CG
CG
I'll be Qtrain will plunk down his $5 to ride AirTrain with the mystical flight attendants...
CG
Great, now you've given him ideas.
Seriously, though, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the foreign airlines continue to use charter buses for their crews, due to security reasons.
... especiallly if Qtrain starts showing up on the AirTrain.
CG
Is this a free trip (meaning the airlines pay the bus company to take the crew)? If so, the bus might still hold an edge if the airlines refused to pay AirTrain fare for its airline crews.
But if the answer to my question is "no," then I would think you're right.
But yea, at 5pm, I could imagine a train being better than a bus in any city at rush hour(quicker too).
As Peter points out, though, at least some airlines will probably have safety concerns about putting their crews on New York public transit. I'd say that their bigger concern should be the risk that their crew gets on the wrong LIRR train during the rush hour and the entire crew for Air Uzbekistan ends up on a train which makes Syosset the first stop.
Funny you mention Uzbekistan Airways (its correct name). A couple of years ago, I was walking by the Hotel Pennsylvania when five female flight attendants for the airline were waiting on the sidewalk for their shuttle. They had ID badges with the airline's name displayed, so that's how I knew where they were from. Let me tell you, any one of the five could have done very well in the Miss Universe contest. All were in their mid to late 20's, I'd say, and all were stunning. They also presented an interesting ethnic mix. One was a Nordic-looking blonde, two were dusky Mediterranean-looking types, and two were mystical.
Maybe if I'd been single .. anyway, as I've noted before, mystical chix don't float my boat, no matter how stunning.
Judging only from your SubTalk posts, I guess you would go for the Nordic Blonde (in black leather -- with a whip). :-)
Tom
It's the tourists I'm worried about. How do we keep some family from a non-english speaking country from hopping the next train from Jamaica to West Hemstead instead of New York? Perhaps some sort of symbology like a white skyline on a black background to point the way to platforms with trains headed to New York, or even to Brooklyn, just something to get them closer to the city.
Perhaps destination signs at Jamaica Station should be redone in multiple languages. Travelers will not find this accommodation in the rest of the system, though.
I think most of business travelers from Europe don't know about the LIRR
and still think the subway is dirty (graffiti) and not safety.
Before i've found this page and had seen a report on TV, i though the
same way.
OK. Reality check. I have a wife and two pre-teen sons. Let's make this a family trip, and take along my five-year-old niece and nephew, just because they wanna fly, too. I live in Queens Village, close to both the Q2, Q110 and LIRR. Going to JFK I can take a cab, Q2/Q110 to Q3 into JFK, OR LIRR/AirTrain. Buses are right out. Four kids, my wife and all our luggage on two buses? Not gonna happen. I could take a cab (two cabs, one adult and two kids in each. My sons are BIG--tall--for their age) and pay for that. No good. Now comes LIRR/AirTrain. I must drag my luggage up TWO flights of stairs, ride to Jamaica (MOMMEE!!! He took my GameBoy!!), get out, (ANOTHER TRAIN! Daddy, I wanna go HOME!) get on AirTrain ($30 for all SIX of us) and ride out to the airport. Oh Boy. The railfan in me wants to take the LIRR/Airtrain route, but the parent in me is gonna pay my mother in law $20 to drive us there (a 14-minute drive) in her minivan. That's reality.
... but the parent in me is gonna pay my mother in law $20 to drive us there (a 14-minute drive) in her minivan.
You'd have to PAY her to do that? I figure she'd be glad to do it just to get rid of you for a while :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I pay for the privilege of being away from HER. ;-)
It may be sucessful at jamaica because of the quick direct ride to midtown
Hmm…versus a one-seat ride via the Rockaway Beach Branch on the LIRR which would bypass Jamaica…food for thought, right? Plus having the uncertainty of riding a driverless train removed. Not to mention the potential for much faster speeds with LIRR…
Of course, if you are going to compare the A Train to Airtrain/LIRR Jamaica, there would be a minimal consideration of time, but since trains move between Jamaica and Penn Station quite slowly especially during rush hour, the time difference becomes negligible. Leave it to the PANYNJ to make the airports a bigger hassle to get to and from than ever…
Why would we want to bypass Jamaica? To deny anyone else using LIRR or the subway the use of AirTrain?
"Plus having the uncertainty of riding a driverless train removed. "
It's only uncertainty to people ignorant about driverless systems or die-hard union hacks. Atlanta Hartsfield Airport has one, Houston has one; Newark Airport has one. Washington Metrorail operates a driverless system; the "operator" is an observer 99% of the time.
"Not to mention the potential for much faster speeds with LIRR…"
Much higher than 60 mph between the Airport and Jamaica? Between the airport and downtown? There are 80 mph stretches, but there are also 40 mph stretches (like just outside the East River tubes). Not to mention there's no capacity 10 hours out of 24 to run an airport train. Now, when ESA opens - different story.
Then there are the issues of the ROW problems, encroachment, NIMBY...
Why do you need all that stuff spoonfed to you?
You need to do a lot of reading. Try earlier threads, try other sources. This stuff has been covered before.
Why would we want to bypass Jamaica?
Who are “we”, may I ask? Would the vast majority of business passengers want to go via Jamaica from Manhattan? The Airtrain forces them to do so, if they choose to access it via the LIRR.
It's only uncertainty to people ignorant about driverless systems or die-hard union hacks
Ah, so you come out against the working man I see. I did not intend to bring management/labor wars into it, but since you did, then tell me how much higher the liability on management gets once an accident with injuries and/or deaths occurs and there can be no “driver/motorman error” to blame it on?
Atlanta Hartsfield Airport has one, Houston has one; Newark Airport has one
And many other airports have them, but none of them are to extend as far out of an airport as this Airtrain. Supposing a train becomes disabled way out on the Van Wyck, how to access? Not the same situation as if it were disabled within the airport grounds, and no on-board personnel available to assist passengers.
Washington Metrorail operates a driverless system; the "operator" is an observer 99% of the time
I know about Metrorail, and BART and a number of other like systems; and if that operator wasn’t in there to override the automatic system, up goes the liability of the top brass of the agency. Airtrain is not to be like them, if my understanding is correct.
Much higher than 60 mph between the Airport and Jamaica?
If that is the speed they want to run the Airtrain at, then good luck to them. And yes, once you bypass Jamaica and remove the uncertainty and delays associated with a two-seat ride plus the reduction of the resultant average speed of your journey (not to mention that low speed limit of LIRR trains coming in and out of Jamaica station), you have got an edge.
Between the airport and downtown?Are they building LIRR into downtown? I don’t seem to recall that I was talking about downtown, therefore this is irrelevant to what I was saying. However, related to the A train, how much faster of a ride to downtown would riding the Airtrain to Howard Beach versus the shuttle bus create?
Not to mention there's no capacity 10 hours out of 24 to run an airport train. Now, when ESA opens - different story
Oh, the “no capacity” excuse—just an excuse at present. (Haven’t a few slots on the LIRR side of things been opened up recently? That is what I seem to recall reading online somewhere.) Quite a bit more traffic comes through the two-track Hudson River tunnels into NYP than in past years, but it is now comparable to LIRR traffic levels or at least close. Perhaps a better signal system? That could certainly fix headways. West Side Yard full all the time? Nope. ESA would only make things easier. As for capacity, though, is this not a ruse to attempt to bring Metro-North trains from the New Haven line into NYP??
Then there are the issues of the ROW problems, encroachment, NIMBY
I think that enough implication is evident that if NY state plus PANYNJ were to hack away at the NIMBYs near the Rockaway Beach line, they would have to cave in—after all, it is not the Lower Manhattan Expressway they are trying to build. Encroachment? That is illegal. Sold-off ROW? Eminent domain.
Why do you need all that stuff spoonfed to you? You need to do a lot of reading. Try earlier threads, try other sources. This stuff has been covered before
Arrrrggghh, you blew it again, and here I had high hopes for you. You self-destructed your argument by being insulting, smart-alecky and condescending. You need to brush up on your manners more.
And what about anybody else who wants to use mass transit to go to the airport? You don't want to offer this option to LIRR riders from Brooklyn? From the Island? You have something against people riding the E train?
"And many other airports have them, but none of them are to extend as far out of an airport as this Airtrain."
Far out enough so that your objection is meaningless. Have you seen the train going to the Getty Museum?
"Oh, the “no capacity” excuse—just an excuse at present. (Haven’t a few slots on the LIRR side of things been opened up recently? That is what I seem to recall reading online somewhere.) Quite a bit more traffic comes through the two-track Hudson River tunnels into NYP than in past years, but it is now comparable to LIRR traffic levels or at least close. Perhaps a better signal system?"
The only excuse here is the one you offer for not knowing much about the topics you like to post. Are you allergic to learning anything?
" Supposing a train becomes disabled way out on the Van Wyck, how to access? Not the same situation as if it were disabled within the airport grounds,"
Sure it is. It's called a fire truck with a ladder. In a tunnel it's a rescue truck with firemen going into the tunnel.
"and no on-board personnel available to assist passengers."
Gee, I guess the thousands of people riding these systems now are in major trouble. Maybe they should stop riding, and start riding trains with 2 crewmen.
"I think that enough implication is evident that if NY state plus PANYNJ were to hack away at the NIMBYs near the Rockaway Beach line, they would have to cave in—after all, it is not the Lower Manhattan Expressway they are trying to build. Encroachment? That is illegal. Sold-off ROW? Eminent domain."
OK. But which politicians do you need to hack away at NIMBYS? (And you do need them) And where is the money in the Capital Plan? You can't use PFT money for the most part (you can use some - the PA gave MTA $100 million for Jamaica Station's re-do).
When you bring some facts and logic to your posts, you'll get appropriate responses from me.
Since when was that ADA compliant?
Seriously, that is an issue everywhere. Wheelchair-bound passengers, especially those who pay $25,000 for a motorized wheelchair, know it takes months to replace it. So when there's a fire (or whatever) in a tunnel or on the elevated, they will cling to the chair and fight rescuers' efforts to get them off the chairs and carry them to safety.
I have told disabled riders at ADA access meetings: "You can replace your chair (ultimately, after all the paperwork and headaches), but you can't replace yourself. Your wheelchair isn't worth dying for."
But there are some disabled folks who will disagree with that. I know where they're coming from.
Maybe someone should come up with a wheelchair with a jet engine attached to the back of it and a retractable hull and keel on the base in case one has to land in the East River... :0)
While deciding what routing I should take from Tampa to Denver....
Which system have good railfan window where I can look out from front of each train?
St. Louis Metrolink?
Dallas DART?
Atlanta MARTA?
Thanks in Advance,
Michael Calcagno
St. Louis does not have a railfan window, since each end of the articulated cars have full panel for the engineer. You can also stand by the front end and look of the side of the engineer. As a former St. Louis native, you will enjoy Metrolink. Although it is light rail, it is in reality a mixture of rapid transit, commuter train, and interurban as it rolls through the farmlands of St. Clair County Illinois to Belleville. It crosses the Mississippi River on the lower deck of Eads Bridge, and it is a fantastic view!
One thing with St. Louis Metrolink, make sure you buy a round trip ticket if you decide to go to Lambert Field. Otherwise, it will cost you around $3.00 to buy a one way ticket from Lambert Field Airport.
Thanks, I'm planning for Day Pass, I beleive both Dallas and St. Louis have that, not sure about Atlanta.
Michael Calcagno
When I was in Dallas 3 years ago, DART had a day pass that is really cheap. I was also able to use it to ride Trinity Railway Express, when it terminated in Irving. I am not sure how it works now, since west of Centerport station, TRE fare increases.
I believe that an all day Metrolink pass is $5.00.
MARTA is like WMATA except no tinted glass. You'll be able to get a good view of the tunnels.
Check out: this thingie here which has galleries of NEW YORK SCENES and
photographs of interest (to both a NYer and an out of towner).
Oh.... the Redbird Interior with Graffiti is there too.
Maybe even Kevin Walsh will see something FORGOTTEN of interest!
That's not one of the recently departed redbirds in that picture; if you look at the car details, you can see that it looks like it's an R-21 or R-22 - look at the grab handles on the ceiling. Additionally, if you look at the door frame, you can see that it's painted some kind of orange; "modern" redbirds currently have the frame painted the same Fox Red as the car exterior.
subfan
My eyes see R-17 in whitebird paint scheme
(look at the face of the storm door into the
next car).
Hmm but the storm doors appears to be R-26 or later
The end door is open; the next car is an R-26 or later.
Additionally, if you look at the door frame, you can see that it's painted some kind of orange; "modern" redbirds currently have the frame painted the same Fox Red as the car exterior.
Yes, but it's an old photo. The what-are-now-redbirds" had orange doors before they were red. This is like looking at a mid 80's photo of an R42 with blue doors, and saying it can't be an R42 because the "modern" R42's have stainless doors.
Not so. During GOH, World's Fair and Main Line R36's on the 6 and 7 lines still had the orange-painted doors on the inside until about 1995 or 1996. Maybe earlier. R33S also had the orange doors. I remember this when riding the 7 and when the 6 line received a handful of WF R36's from the 7. Still went "puff" when the doors closed.
Are you sure that those interior orange doors on the R33/36WF & R36ML Redbirds lasted through 1995 or 1996? Because I remember riding the 6 & 7 lines during those years & none of there Redbirds had the interior orange doors anymore it was only red like today. I think the orange doors only lasted up till about 1989 or so.
They were around in the 90's. The only class of cars to have them. The 6 line WF R36 and ML R36 had the orange doors a little longer than the 7. Actually, 6 train orange doors ended around 93 or 94. My guess is they kept the orange doors on the 6 line so shop personel can tell the difference between the R36's and the R29's. But then again, that's why we have car numbers as well.
Oh really I didn't knew that the orange doors lasted through the early 1990's because some people said that they lasted through the late 1980's.
any reason why r-21-22's were used almost exclusively as work motors/rider cars than r-17's..very few of them on the road...another observation..no r-21-22's at the museum
There are still quite a few R17's on the work roster. Not as many, but quite a few. A few R12's, R14's, R15's, R17's, R21 and 22's are still in work service. Why they had more 21's and 22's, I have no idea. I know that quite a handful still can operate without a locomotive( those that still have pantograph gates). My guess is that some from the redbird fleets will become work horses and replace the current "yellow jackets" as I call them. Even then, R21/22 were somewhat better in service than the R17.
probably keep the wf singles for work duty..would make a lot of sense
One WF R-36 had the door frames and the interior of the doors painted orange much like the subway car illustrated in the picture.
#3 West End Jeff
Might have been an R-27/30. The car body appears to be wide. Also, no A/C.
Might have been an R-27/30. The car body appears to be wide. Also, no A/C.
Nope, I think it is an IRT Redbird. Notice how there are three windows just behind the guy with the white shirt on the left. The R27-30's never had more than two window next to each other.
"Nope, I think it is an IRT Redbird. Notice how there are three windows just behind the guy with the white shirt on the left. The R27-30's never had more than two window next to each other."
Nope, it's not an IRT Redbird. It's an IRT R-22, exterior painted white. Redbirds interior doors are painted the same color as the exterior, that's the giveaway.
Bill "Newkirk"
Redbirds interior doors are painted the same color as the exterior, that's the giveaway.
Okay, while I didn't know the R-xx class of the car, I was just stating that it definately was not an R27-30, and had to be a IRT car. Most of the current "redbirds" looked like the interior of the train in that photo. Obviously I didn't mean it was a "redbird" at the time the photo was taken.
BTW, how do you know it's an R22, and not one of the current redbird classes? MAny of the current and just retired IRT R-xx classes looked different before the rebuilding.
"BTW, how do you know it's an R22, and not one of the current redbird classes?"
The triangular shaped stainless steel straps. Only the R-22's had them. The R-21's were like the R-17's, curved.
Bill "Newkirk"
See, you learn something new every day. Simple things can easily identify.
"See, you learn something new every day. Simple things can easily identify"
You get an education here on NYCsubway.org, I do too.
The curved R-17 stainless steels straps were same as the R-16's. But the R-16/17 straps were almost the same as the R-10. The R-16/17 straps were bolted flat to the ceiling. The R-10 straps, because of the curved ceiling, had straps with curved bases. Now the R-12/14 didn't have stainless steel straps as built. They had bars, but somewhere in the 60's they added on these small mini straps nicknamed "knuclebusters", because of the close proximity of your knuckles !
Did you have a strapping good time ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Did you have a strapping good time ?
Yes I did....
Actually, I own two straps that I have aquired over the years. One is a stainless one, from what could be from the R27-30's or one of the IRT classes (weren't they similar?). I bought it at the Transit Museum tag sale around the time they were rebuilding the redbirds, and scrapping the R27's, so it could be from either.
The other one I have is a white porcelain strap, with a plainted black end (where it get's screwed on) that someone gave me years back.
I'll have to take a photo of them one day and post it here, maybe some of you guys can help me figure out once and for all what class cars they are from.
then there were the canvas 'straps'..(hence the term 'straphangers)
What lines did the R-22 run on in the early 80's? I don't remember ever seeing those triangular straps, but I remember the curved ones well.
"What lines did the R-22 run on in the early 80's? I don't remember ever seeing those triangular straps, but I remember the curved ones well."
I'm not a great IRT buff to begin with. I do remember a gang of them on the #1 line, silver/blue/graffitti. They weren't on the #7. There were white R-22's with tan/orange doors inside. I'm sure someone here will fill in the blanks for you.
Bill "Newkirk"
By the end of their lives the R-22s had mostly migrated over to the West Side IRT lines, though a few would pop up on the No. 5 train.
The orange paint scheme debuted on the R-33s in 1978, at roughly the same time the AC retrofits arrived, and worked their way down in model class from there. Going by that, I would guess the photo was probably taken no earlier than 1980.
Wow. The West Side IRT is what I rode and I don't remember the straps at all. Oh well. I wasn't at all a railfan at the time; the experience was far too unpleasant.
Yeah, we are talking about the "Bernie Goetz Era" of the R-21/22s on the West Side IRT. Not something NYCTA wants to go through again, I hope. I know 99 percent of the people riding the lines don't.
Let's not forget. Our R22 was the star of our favorite flick, "The Taking Of Pelham 123".
The car is definitley an R21 or R22. Why? Notice over the windows, no emergency exit handle over the center window. Second clue, just like the R17's, no black rubber window holders on the side doors.
Allllllllrighty then.
Good pointer, brah.
The triangular handholds on stems is the hallmark of only one car class, the R22.
wayne
A thread that started here recently indicated that Metrocards with their 40 year old magnetic strip design have numerous difficulties when used in turnstiles that haven't been cleaned or maintained to the optimum. Mechanical magnetic-based readers have often had difficulty when the heads get dirty, as any owner of a VCR or tape player can attest.
If the token is truly going the way of the dodo bird, and so many people have little faith in the reliability of Metrocard entrances, there IS a solution that is reliable (when installed properly) and eliminates the physical contact of reader heads and fragile iron oxide glued to paper.
Mobil uses it now, they call it "Speedpass" and it does a fair job of providing a small RF-based tag that you can mount on a keychain in Mobil's application, or in other configurations as a card similar to the smartcard you use in a Satellite receiver, or almost any possible configuration since the actual transponder is the size of a grain of rice.
In a practical TA application, it would allow customers to simply wave the device over the turnstiles and enter without the problems of swiping a card through a possibly dirty slot that can result in delays passing through, bad swipes, the whole yada yada. If Metrocard's coming up for a renewal for the contract soon, this is something the TA might want to look into doing as a better replacement.
For those curious as to how "Speedpass" and contactless RF ID systems work, here's some information on how it all works ...
http://www.ti.com/tiris/docs/customerService/faq.shtml
I believe there are even some Transit systems that are using contactless RF ID right now. NYC should definitly try that.
---Brian
New York has a nasty habit of letting contracts to political contributors rather than "the best vendor" ... I *know* the TA is bound by political realities (and now, after the fact practical ones) to a specific vendor and technology.
But if they really ARE planning to rid the system of station agents, and Metrocards are perceived to be unreliable, then the MTA really needs to look at alternatives HERE as well as labor force. These "RFID" things have been around for almost 20 years now and have proven reliable in cattle management (please don't snicker, I didn't mean it THAT way) and anyone who's ever heard of getting their pets "tagged" knows that this is the SAME THING.
They WORK. The RF field is far lower in intensity than the computer keyboard you're sitting at (FORGET the monitor) so even in a land of NIMBY's holding cell phones and worried about that "RF stuff" this would be FAR lower in intensity for the purpose than any digital appliances folks have in front of them right now. Since the device is PASSIVE (no RF, no batteries) the only time an RF field would be present would be as you pass through the turnstile. The current design with the Metrocards is about the same or greater than the intensity required for these things for the brief amount of time they'd be "lit."
Safe and reliable. Nothing to wear out, worst you can do is BREAK it. Compared to fragile Metrocards, that'd be a real feat. :)
>>> Safe and reliable. Nothing to wear out, worst you can do is BREAK it. Compared to fragile Metrocards, that'd be a real feat <<<
But can they store information that can be updated? Reading a number is easy. Subtracting fare is a bit more difficult. Although subway stations could reliably keep track of the data through a central computer, buses would be a real problem.
Tom
Much like the current Metrocard, there's "non-volatile" memory ON the card. A balance could be easily kept, and as long as no "personally identifying information" is required (solution is to sell "keys" at a vending machine that doesn't ask who you are) it's just a matter of putting some money onto the fixed serial number of a specific key, ID # and balance and perhaps time since last lockout would be readily stored in memory on the passive "key" or "card" ... wouldn't be any different for practical purposes than the current Metrocard as to capabilities (though the chip probably could hold more bytes of data than the magnetic strip) and you're giving up the physical contact required which in turn requires properly maintained swipers.
Seriously, this methodology IS reliable, and it works. You'd be replacing a cranky mechanical card reader with a low profile RF device that DOESN'T need to be "cleaned" ... it'd be a MAJOR improvement. And with the RF loop setup much like exit antitheft loops in stores, you wouldn't even have to take the damned thing out of your pocket, it could read it there. For commuters, you'd just keep walking ... no fumbling or reaching for the slot, just walk right through. :)
In all seriousness though, I have experience with these devices, we're a New York company, and *we* could build what would be required to implement this scheme. It's EASY, and would be able to be configured to work with the existing infrastructure. Simply a matter of replacing the existing MVM equipment with RF-based equipment. This stuff's been around for YEARS.
Mobil's "speedpass" is just another implementation of the same old, same old ... the stuff's been out there for years though. First major application was farms and stockyards, and I apologize for mentioning "managing cattle" since it will make "customers" twitchy ... but in the greater scheme of things, that *IS* what it is, and this method would certainly eliminate a LOT of problems for the MTA, and make it even easier for the ... ummm ... cattle. :)
But yeah, we can do dat.
Treading the fine line between diligent and argumentative ...
- The MetroCard stores data on the card, which can be ditched and replaced. The RF device is permanent and expensive and would have to be "reloaded" if something went wrong. On-site personnel required.
- My experience with this device at Shell Oil was: one month functioning, one month on-and-off, then I guess their IT guys flew to Barbados or something. They told me to use my credit card and throw away the the RF device on my keyring; the fun was over.
- These can't be printed and dispensed from a machine.
I'm a willing near-tech-gonzo, and I like the idea, just think of this as a way to keep the thread alive...
I've never had a problem with Speedpass in the two yearsI've used it (and with the Exxon/Mobil merger they're at most of the former's service stations now as well). The only difficulty I see is that while the instructions tell you to "wave" the Speedpass at the target receiver (either Pegasus or the Exxon Tiger), it works a lot better if you point the front end of the RF transmitter directly at the receiver. Getting people to understand that would probably take some time and require a few frustrating "waves" where nothing happened.
The biggest problem I see is that while the RF transmitters would probably be cost-effective for regular users, who could "refill" their accounts each month or every few weeks, with single-use or Funpass riders, the cost of the transmitters may be too much to justify going away from Metrocards at this time if they're only going to be used one to four times and then discarded.
One more thing as experienced with EZ Pass users from time to time. Move too slowly through the turnstile and you'll end up getting charged more than once. On a large scale like the subway don't know how well refunds will work (will you have to send them the device? Now what do you do in the meantime, get another? Now you have 2 when you get that one back.) I know you have the same thing with the MetroCard now as ar as refunds, but the card fits nicely in a wallet so 2 aren't a big deal.
Does Metrocard actually put data on the magnetic strip on the card? I thought it just held an identifying number that the computer reads, looks up the records for, and then decides whether or not to let through the Faregate.
I'm pretty sure that PATCO's work in the same way, card goes in, it just reads the number, contacts a database of card #s and then decides to let me in and takes one ride off my database. No material is written to the card, which would take a while, it's just a quick in-out kinda thing, no waiting for new material to be printed to my card, the computer has debited my account one ride off my 10 ride in milliseconds.
You wouldn't need to print them if you used the above mentioned systems. The RF wand is basically dumb, it just sits there throwing out some numbers when it is in the area of the fare gate. So long as the number that the tag is spitting out match up with a number in the database that is listed as having fare, the gates open.
"Does Metrocard actually put data on the magnetic strip on the card? I thought it just held an identifying number that the computer reads, looks up the records for, and then decides whether or not to let through the Faregate."
Buses don't have data communications with the central computers while on the road. So the card needs to record your current balance and recent usage status.
Does Metrocard actually put data on the magnetic strip on the card? I thought it just held an identifying number that the computer reads, looks up the records for, and then decides whether or not to let through the Faregate.
Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. The number of transactions per second that the backend server would need to process during peak hours on the subway would be a serious challenge to current technology. Not necessarily impossible, but certainly something the vendor would brag about, and I've never heard any such bragging.
Also this method would be very susceptable to comms failures, and would require wireless comms for buses.
The option of recording on the card is just so much simpler and more resilient that I cannot imagine anybody going down the central database route for such a high-volume, low-value transaction system.
Correct ... it *IS* stored on the card. After visiting, and leaving the city, I "read" my Unlimited, and the encryption isn't all that significant. Everything's in Microsoft "crypt32.dll" format and actually not all that complicated. There's an ID number, time and date stamps and numbers for values, checksum and some other data. No *WAY* will I divulge what was on there, but suffice it to say that there's so LITTLE data stored that one of the most BASIC RFID chips could EASILY handle what little is stored.
No central communications is required based on what I looked at other than a fraud alarm based on things not matching up ...
I hear ya ... actually, there are many variations on the "key" including a transponder that looks JUST like a metrocard, thickness of a standard credit card. In quantity, they're not THAT expensive, and vending machines can be provided with a "repack" ... since they're passive and use the RF field for power, they don't go limp on ya unless you actually physically break it or lose it.
The oil companies went the cheapest route (duh) and there were problems with the earlier devices. The data can be stored on the device which would make it no different than a Metrocard with the exception that there's no iron oxide to flake off.
But like I said, I'm not a zealot on this idea, merely offering it.
It certainly makes sense as the next generation once the MTA finds that the current readers are a major maintenance headache.
An appropriate surcharge (equal to the manuafacturing/distribution cost of a card) when you get a physically new one will persuade people to refill them rather than throw them out when they're out of money.
In MTA quantities, the cards/pendants/head bandage chosen won't be all that expensive. In small quantities, they're a couple bucks each, in 10,000 lots they come down to about 50 cents or so, depending on which "package style" is chosen. So to charge a buck or two perhaps wouldn't be a big deal to folks if DEFECTIVE ones are replaced free.
But again, only a suggestion, not the law. :)
"First major application was farms and stockyards, and I apologize for mentioning "managing cattle" since it will make "customers" twitchy ... but in the greater scheme of things, that *IS* what it is, and this method would certainly eliminate a LOT of problems for the MTA, and make it even easier for the ... ummm ... cattle. :) "
I am really mooooved by your sentiments. (no reason not to milk this one udder than the fact that I can't help myself. Please forgive me - as they say "To Err is Human, To forgive Bovine")
It just occured to me - the first distinct use for the human brain was to manage livestock. Now look what's happened with the human brain. And we have no one to go to for refunds.
Owwww! Owwww! Owwwww! Use some BAG BALM, please. :)
Is the speedpass technology similar to the EZpass technology already in use by the MTA? I've often read that the "next generation" Metrocard will be a smaller version of the EZpass.
I'm not familiar with what MTA is doing, but it sounds like it would be similar. Those passive RF-based modules are VERY small (the actual circuit) and could be placed into anything from the size of a grain of rice to a credit card shape to a brick. Glad to hear they're looking into it. When I heard "Smartcard," that's another path which requires electrical contacts to work, and that would be little improvement over the current mag stripe method since you'd STILL have to keep the contacts clean or the card wouldn't work. Also, there'd be the pause of the customer to insert, wait for a go signal, withdraw and move on. The RF-based technology wouldn't require a customer to break their stride and would allow folks with packages or other burdens to just keep walking. That in turn would reduce the number of entry cages required for a given crowd size as well.
Chicago has it. When I was up there in 2001, David Cole had one, and it was just a credit card sized card that he waved in front of the turnstile.
Correct. And Chicago's turnstiles are from the same vendor as NYC's (I forget the company name) and were installed around the same time as NYC's. In fact, this "Smart Card" technology was built into the turnstiles at the time of their initial installation. Why NYC didn't chose this option when they had the chance, I have no idea, but I imagine it would be possible (albiet a huge pain in the ass) to retrofit the existing turnstiles to read some sort of RF device.
The only change I would make to the CTA Smart Card would be to take it a step further and, instead of having it shaped like a credit card that you have to pull out of your wallet, make it in the form of Mobil's SpeedPass so that it can be attached to a keychain.
(Or, alternatively, we could jump ahead even further: an EZ-PASS system where the RF transponder is attached directly into passengers' foreheads, allowing them to simply walk through the turnstile without stopping.)
Also, I've noticed that that CTA setup of "dipping" your transit card is typically far more reliable and faster than that NYC "swipe." True, there's moving parts that could possibly fail, but the occasional out-of-serive turnstile is still far less of a hassle than having to swipe your MetroCard a dozen times in order for it to take.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The reason why those contactless smart card needs a credit-card size card is very simple -- YOU NEED a chip to store the fare data! If you don't have a chip but just an RFid itself, its usage would be limited as each terminal must connect to the mainframe if you need to use that.
I think some of you have heard of Octopus Card in HK, the most penetrated smart card in the world. When you put that card under light, you can see the whole compartment (chip + RFid) covers almost half of the card. I think it can be minitaurised but to be honest you won't want to have a tag in your body as that sounds like the start of the end of the world. From the Book of Revelation, it points out that by the time the Antichrist comes, everyone has to be tagged. Guess what, I think RFid is the tag that most likely to be used.
Actually, you don't have to pull out the card from your wallet or even pull it out from you bag, as long as you card is placed near to the surface of the bag. That is because the effective range of the radio is usually 10cm.
Hong Kong has had a system like this for some years, called the Octopus card.
Technically it is contactless smart-card, the size and shape of a credit card, which is read/written using R/F technology when it brought close to a reader. Close meaning something like touching the wallet containing the card to a target on the gate.
It's use started out just with the subway and commuter rail; now it has expanded to include buses, trams, ferries and even non-transit uses like telephones and vending machines.
Basically it encodes a monetary balance rather than a number of rides, and when used used it deducts the appropriate fare and writes an electronic ticket. For buses (which are flat fare) this is done on entry; for the subway (which isn't) its done on exit based on a record of the previous entry gate. Discounts are given for bus to subway transfers and vica-versa.
A lot of this would of course be overkill in flat fare New York, but the basic pricipals still stand. And it could easily to other transit operators (MetroNorth, LIRR, regional bus operators, ferry operators) that don't keep the flat fare.
Here is more information.
turnstiles on the LIRR or MNRR? what are you begging for jumpers?
and NO commuters arent goning to fall for the heets
The Illinois Central RR (now part of Metra)'s commuter service had Automatic Fare Collection in 1968. It can be done.
David
turnstiles on the LIRR or MNRR? what are you begging for jumpers?
and NO commuters arent goning to fall for the heets
Turnstiles are but one way of doing it.
Another that might be more appropriate for some commuter rail operations would be to provide 'validators' on platforms, with destination selection controls.
Passenger selects destination, touches the card and a virtual ticket gets issued. On-train conductors use hand-held readers to check these virtual tickets and detect fraud.
In late '01, it looked like CalTrain was installing this kind of kit on their stations. Don't know whether it was just a trial, or whether it has gone live yet.
The commuter rail operation in Hong Kong does something very similar to enforce first-class fares.
Correct. And Chicago's turnstiles are from the same vendor as NYC's (I forget the company name) and were installed around the same time as NYC's.
Chicago and New York DID NOT have their turnstiles installed simultaneously. New York started installing its current turnstiles in 1993, well before the proximity card technology was advanced enough. Even though the vendor and the technology is the same, Chicago didn't have its TransitCard system installed until 1996 or 1997.
Chicago is such a smaller system that they started installation later and finished earlier.
Which is cheapest?
1. Replace the Metrocard system.
2. Monitor S/As on their performance in keeping readers clean, even ones at HEETs.
3. Do nothing different.
Unfortunately the MTA seems to be leaning toward #3. But #2 is far less expensive than #1 and likely to give just as good results.
I'd say #3 is the sure bet. But eventually, when there's an economy, #1 is something to look at down the road. Sometimes ya gotta spend some money to gain reductions in cost further on down the line.
Mind ya, this isn't an obsession ... but since there's been discussion of Metrocard misbehavior, figured I'd offer a practical solution. And yes, it'd be expensive up front to replace what is, but eventually that will have to be done anyway as the current technology "wears out" ... card readers lose motors, magnetic heads wear down to the point where they can no longer read, yada yada ...
One of the biggest problems is that New Yorks' subway is generally 40 years behind the rest of the transit industry.
New York was the last rapid transit system to use axle hung motors. It still will not use inside frame trucks, like everybody else. Hundreds of cars are still controlled with separate controller and brake stands. It was one of the last to adopt some form of automatic fare collection. It is one of the few rail transit systems with two man crews.
In the rest of the industry it's 2003, in the New York subway it's 1955, with a few bits of modern technology.
Even better is that now the government can have real time tracking of all of us. Good thing as we obviously need big brother to keep us safe from ourselves.
Good website
A couple of nuggets. The TI system use standardize ico protocols
The system could be overlayed over the existing metrocard system.
The cards can either be read/write or read only
The only issue is the cost of the cards. The proxycards used at my office cost $10 to replace(the cards may cost less but employees are chargered $10 for lost cards). Current megnetic metrocards cost pennies a piece. As with EZ-Pass a small depostit may be required($25 unless linked to ta credit card) or a discount for refiling the cards can be offered.
The cost of the cards at the time may have been the reason the MTA decided to go with magnetic metrocards. Not many people used metrocard prior to the discounts and two fare zone illimination occured in 1996.
"SPEEDPASS" in store transponder is about the size of a deck of cards. It could easily be added to existing turnstyles. The turnsyles would need a software upgrade. It is like adding a mouse and a some other type of input device to your PC(such as a drawing tablet)
The same could be said for MVM's and bus fare boxes. The current metrocard system requires tons of maintance. Especially bus fare boxes with their motorized readers. Rolling out smartcards looks like a solution. The MTA has said in thier capitol plan that they plan to test smartcard technology
Its time for MTA to get "digital" and use smart card technology, read by a laser, avoiding any contact with the card.
I can see a "speedpass" type device being used in the subway system. Given the MTA's love of cutting edge technology and their swift implimentation of such, I'd expect my grandchildren to be testing prototypes in 30 years, on the day construction of the 2nd Ave. line begins.
Heh. By then, we won't NEED the speedpass, we'll all have our National Security implants or "mark" long before then. :)
What about Washington D.C.? Don't they have smart card technology? I thought they had there system set up a few months before Chicago??
Dunno ... last time I used a fare card there was a long time ago and it looked very much like MTA's little cardboard wonder. :)
I received this e-mail this morning and was shocked. Was this the same Steve Bogen selling books etc. at ERA meetings and had an office on West 45th St ?
The Valley Railroad has just received word that Steve Bogen died this
past weekend. Steve was very infulential in the developement of the
Railway Preservation movement as we know it. He was one of the founders
and editors of the Steam Passenger Service Directory (which evolved
into Kalbach's "Guide to Tourist Railroads and Museums").
The Steam Pasenger Directory sponsored the first joint meetings of
tourist and museum railroad organizations in the 1960s'. From these
meeting grew the present "TRAIN" industry trade association. He
was a fixture at the annual "TRAIN" convention for many years. For many
years Steve served on the Board of Directors of the Empire State
Railroad Museum and helped orchestrate the transfer of their collection
to the Connecticut Valley Railroad Museum (later Railroad Museum of New
England). He has served on the Valley Railroad Co. board of dirctors
for many years. Steve owned Quadrant Press, which specialized in
railroad subjects. A memorial service for Steve is being planned for by
the Valley Railroad.
Railway Preservation News Interchange
PS In addition to this, he was a vendor a railroad-theme items.
Bill... I didn't know him by name, but the article said he owned Quadrant Press and I know that was on West 45th Street. I've seen him at ERA meetings and at Hoboken Festivals also.
I am also sorry to hear that he died. He was a soft spoken sweet person. I didn't know how active he was in railway preservation. He published Karl Zimmerman's The Remarkable GG1, which is a gem.
Isn't 'Bells 'n Whistles' a subsidiary of Quadrant Press? I believe all of those new or re-issued softbound books like the 'IND to the World's Fair' or 'The Unification of the Subway System' are all published by Quadrant/B&W.
heypaul,
If you at any one of the recent ERA NYD meetings. he set up shop on the far left hand side of the stage, selling books, calendars etc. The thing is, he is rather new at selling at the "Division" meetings. It used to be Arnold Joseph. When Arnold died, he asked me if it would be wisw to sell books etc. I told him to give it a try. It was no disrespect to Arnold, but to fill the void left.
Now with Steve gone, who will step up to the plate and sell books and other "trinkets and Beads" as Steve used to say. If there was a new book out on trolleys, subways or railroads, chances are you'd find it at the NYD meeting. I had a good relationship with Steve, so I'm going to miss him.
Bill "Newkirk"
I read his obits on the trains.com web site. He's more that just a local railfan.
I heard he was taking care of the material Arnold Joseph left behind.
He passed on on 31 Jan 2003. He was 68 years old.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I got this request from a video producer who wants to identify this location, can anyone help? It's surely in Manhattan along 7th Avenue (unless it's a movie set!). I'm not sure I'd depend on the signs on the buildings since it was a clip from a TV show ("Fame"), they could have been changed for the shoot.
-Dave
That subway entrance DEFINITELY is a prop, this is not what they did back in the 30's and 40's with that "Subway" sign there. Remember the location does not have to be on 7th Ave just because the entrance looks like. It might be a landmarked building in Lower Manhattan, but I can't make of it.
>>> It might be a landmarked building in Lower Manhattan <<<
Or in Los Angeles. Compare the detail above the arch and below the second floor windows in this picture of the Bradbury Building in Los Angeles.
Now check the detail in the arch itself and around the second floor window.
Any doubts remaining?
Tom
This is likely a Hollywood set.
The television version of "Fame" was filmed in L.A. The set was based on the old High School for the Performing Arts, which is located mid-block on West Forty-something street between Broadway and 6th Avenue and is now another type of school. Due to its mid-block location, there would not be a subway entrance located directly across the street. Not 100% sure, though, but judging from this, along with the atypical typeface on the "SUBWAY" sign affixed to the railing, it's my best guess.
Or, like Kool-D said, it could be a prop placed on the sidewalk in New York. The building is awfully detailed and looks very close to the old "School of the Arts" building I mentioned. Yet I can't think of any reason they would go to this trouble for a New York exterior used in an L.A.-produced television show, unless this was the pilot.
The building looks detailed. But I'm not able to make out much of the detail. I think it was just something so that people would say "This Is Thwe School" in a glance. The archway of the building looks a little blurred. The names of the stores alongside the school entrance are blocked out by the ironwork on the subway stairway. And I don't think there would be stores that close to a school.
Pete, I believe you nailed it...
The television version of "Fame" was filmed in L.A. The set was based on the old High School for the Performing Arts, which is located mid-block on West Forty-something street between Broadway and 6th Avenue and is now another type of school.
I believe the school is now the Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School for International Studies (or International Careers).
I think it's a movie set. The background looks to be very generic and hidden by the railing. I can't make out that building. It looks like it says "School - something". The iron railing around the subway staircase has a piece missing in the foreground. And I don't think the IRT has gone to Bronx Park in 50 years. Also I believe the real life school that "Fame" is based on is on a street OFF of 7th Avenue.
Unless there are other photos, I'd say it's a Hollywood depliction of NYC.
That entrance is definitely a fake...look at the lettering and the fact that it says 'SUBWAY' in the area normally occupied by the division and destination info...certainly it's footage taken from a movie...not 'Taking of Pelham', but something from the early or mid 80's (I see a late '70's style LTD cab in the background.
I knew iut was a fake because the "Subway" is to the side of the entrance, while the "Interborough Rapid Transit" info is usually placed on the fron of the entrance, visible as you go down the staircase as well as the other side.
I think its a prop put up on a New York street.
Hollywood can do amazing things with props. At Universal Studios in Florida there is a mock up of an IRT kiosk that looks pretty real.
["Hollywood can do amazing things with props. At Universal Studios in Florida there is a mock up of an IRT kiosk that looks pretty real."]
You think that's something? How about how they built a whole el for Hello Dolly.
It looks like its somewhere in Manhattan but can I be wrong yes, its not unusual to see different cities filming things that is supposedly New York.
Thanks guys... but for the time being, it's clear there's something wrong with the subway entrance.. it's the location of the building the guy is interested in. I should have been more clear.
OMG... how typical a subway group swarm to the subway entrance
part of the graphic... meanwhile I'm squinting away at the
scripture at the top of the building entrance and the stores
next door... lol..... Carlos something...
Dave, check mail... I found relevant facts on google 4 ya.
Dear Mr. Video Producer (and all interested):
I (a Broadcast Journalist) come to note the following:
http://www.famethemusical.com/show.htm
INDICATES THE "SCHOOL OF ARTS" WAS BASED ON NEW YORK'S
FIORELLO LAGUARDIA HIGH SCHOOL FOR PERFORMING ARTS
http://www.famethemusical.com/info-school.htm
GIVES BACKGROUND INFORMATION TO THE SCHOOL AND HOW
THE SERIES USED IT AS IT'S HOME BASE.
http://www.famenetwork.com/History-Movie.htm
GIVES CAST LIST AND ACKNOWLEDGES THERE WAS A LOS ANGELES
AND NEW YORK BASED SET.....
http://www.famenetwork.com/Father-Fame.htm
SUBMIT A QUESTION TO FATHER FAME..... HEY! LOOK!
FATHER FAME HAS THAT SAME BUILDING IN THE BACKGROUND!!!
(I'LL BET A MOHEGAN BUCK FATHER FAME KNOWS THE EXACT LOCATION)
Thanks to David Pirmann for posting the querie.
1southferrry9
Journalist 4 hire
:)
The building in question is not on Seventh Avenue, but Broadway - that is, Broadway at 3rd Street in downtown Los Angeles. It is the famed Bradbury Building, a landmark often used in films for its interior court with wrought iron railings and open-cage elevators. The "Bradbury." sign over the arch was covered for this film.
Trivia note: The Ross Cutlery store on the far right, obscured by the "Subway" sign, is where O.J. Simpson purchased a knife in the period before his ex-wife's death.
I once saw a "New York" movie being filmed a block away on 4th Street between Broadway and Hill. There were fake police cars, fake cabs, fake parking meters, and two RTS buses painted in NYCT-blue (both numbered 3481). Of course, some of the vehicles had REAL California plates.
Anyway, the New York location that the photo WANTS to be is the south side of West 46th Street, between Sixth and Seventh Avenues, where the old Performing Arts High School was (and where I failed my audition for the acting program so many years ago).
The actor who played Shirofsky (probably spelled wrong) was from New York and commented on spotting a small newsstand on the block while on break between scenes. He was delighted to see the New York Times on sale, only to discover it was several weeks old. Turned out the stand was a prop. The point is they "dressed" the block quite a bit to look like New York, including I believe a bus.
School of Performing Arts old building is indeed now the Jackie O. School. The building was gutted and rebuilt, but the facade remains the same. The building used for the outside movie shots was across the street and a hundred feet or so west of the school. If the video producer is looking for a N.Y. equivalent for the "feel" of the movie, or the series, 46th Street between 6th and 7th is where he needs to go! Then he'll have a choice of either side of the street!
The High School of the Performing Arts was located on 46th St betwee 6th and 7th Ave about midway down the block. The nearest storefront was several hundred feet west of the school building
Hi Everybody
Thanks for all your messages. Most of the exteriors for Fame were filmed in NYC, and most of the interiors were filmed at MGM in LA.
I believe the Jackie O School is the building which once housed the original Fame School. It was never actually used in the film or TV series though. Most of the exteriors of the school were filmed at the John Jay College of Criminal justice.
The archway I was trying to locate does indeed appear to be the Bradbury building in LA, so thanks very much to those of you that identified it.
Again, many thanks.
Richard
What do you think is the most annoying topic that is repeatedly brought up on this page?
Candidates:
1) When the Transit Museum is reopening;
2) The 76th Street station;
3) Whether City Hall IRT is mainline trackage or yard trackage;
4) Posts like this that reference other annoying posts;
Feel free to add your own.
Here's my choices.
1. 76 St threads
2. Off topic threads that make no sense
3. People constantly asking all different types of Q's on the Redbirds[don't get me wrong I like them :-)]
5) Complaints that commuter rail fares are too high.
You asked for it.
I sometimes get annoyed by the same old questions about two issues: 2nd Avenue and connecting Staten Island, since the situation on the ground hasn't changed in a long time on either issue. But while the issues are tired for me, they may not be for someone who is new to this board, or new to railfanning in general, so I think they are fair questions to be asked by new subway fans. I also have to say, I like the different turn this latest round of Staten Island discussion has taken, looking not to the same old schemes of connecting to Brooklyn or Manhattan but the more novel idea of connecting to New Jersey.
Mark
5. Suggestions that NYCT is deliberately shafting or out to get one line or another (Sea Beach, G, and Rockaways being the usual subjects).
That one was aimed at me. I plead guilty. I also hope someday the TA will listen to my bellowings, but I doubt it.
You have complained about the way the T/A has treated the Sea Beach Line. When I rode a diverted "W" train on that line on May 24th 2002 it was disgusting with filth and garbage all over the tracksides. The stations left something to be desired. The Sea Beach is starting to look as bad as the Franklin Avenue shuttle before it was renovated. The Sea Beach Line is a pig sty.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree with that statement Jeff, agreed 110% the Slum-Beach line needs a lot of work now.
At least the snow will cover the garbage on the Sea Beach for the time being. Soon enough it will melt and you see it once again.
#3 West End Jeff
You seem to have a lot of fun bagging on my line numnuts but as long as you can take it as well as give it, well then, I guess it is all ok. The fact is the way the N route looks right now it does seem like a slum, but you're kidding anyone by the way you meant it. It had nothing to do with peeling paint, water damage, and garbage. Your term for my train was given with malice aforethought, isn't that right Cool Toilet?
That term is endorsed by your buddy, #1 Brighton Exp. Bob, he likes it better than Slow-Beach.
What kind of endorsement is that? If someone told Bob to try and swallow a telephone he would do it. Good God, can't you get a better endorsement than that?
Can't be as bad as your Republican buddies who want to see to that Amtrak bleeds an unhappy death. They have money to go to war against Iraq, but can't find a way to help Amtrak here and there.
John Snow, Chairman of CSX is now our Secretary of the Treasury. Once Amtrak is killed off, he can personally finance (with OUR money) CSX Subway and CSX Commuter Rail. All will be well again. :-\
That term is endorsed by your buddy, #1 Brighton Exp. Bob, he likes it better than Slow-Beach.
***[When I rode a diverted "W" train on that line on May 24th 2002 it was disgusting with filth and garbage all over the tracksides.]***
Somethings seem not to change with the times. Whether it be the
Sea Beach right of way in 2002 or another garbage pit that comes
to mind 47 years earlier, was the Ocean Parkway underpass on the
B-35 Church Avenue Streetcar Line. I've seen pictures of that
in it's last years of service and it was another den of garbage.
Also, not to be offensive, how clean is the trackage on the
Brighton Cut? Let's not even go into the Bay Ridge Line, even
thought the NY&A did some housekeeping several years ago.
There's something about a good portion of Brooklynites, they think
railway right of ways are there for "Solid Waste Disposal". And
I'm a Brooklynite for 6 decades, but it isn't the cleanest of the
Boroughs.
;-) Sparky
It is a shame that the right-of-way for a railroad is used as a garbage dump. I've ridden the Metro-North Hudson Line train to New York any nukber of times and along certain stretches of track I see garbage. Near the Ludlow station I've seen an old stove and a section from an overhead garage door just dumped there amongst other garbage. In the Bronx you can see piles of old tires along the tracksides. Near the Marble Hill station there are thoroughly rusted hulks of cars underneath a building that have been there for years. It is a disgrace that people toss their garbage wherever they please and the commuters have to look at it everyday they go to work on the train. It offends me that any railway or highway for that matter is used as a garbage dump. People should learn to dispose of their garbage properly. I'm not holding my breath however.
#3 West End Jeff
There was a time when the roadbed and tracks of my Sea Beach were clean and free of garbage. I don't know what inspires such carelessness today but it is a disgusting sight to see. There are a lot of people who simply act like human pigs when they are not in their own house. Perhaps they're pigs in their own houses as well, and maybe I shouldn't give them any credit for cleanliness whatsoever.
It isn't just the Sea Beach Line where pig toss their garbage. When I ride the Metro-North Hudson Line I see garbage too. For some reason in the New York metropolitan area, it is common to see the trash along the right-of-way of railroads. Though the further from the city that you travel, the railroad tracks are more likely to be clean.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually, the Brighton cut is kind of clean but the tracks & platform is full of pigeon shit at Newkirk Av and there's a good amount of trash at Prospect Park and the water problem at Atlantic Av, that's about it. The Culver express tracks in the underground is FILTHY, see at Carroll St and you'll know what I mean. There's so much trash that if a train ran over it, a track fire could be no ordinary one and could cause a fireball [figure of speech of course 8-)].
How can you NOT think that Rockaway is being shafted? Do you see the urine on the floor of the 116th st. station?????
Hey Rockaway, I think I can explain that. Kool-D was trying to live up to his name but couldn't get to the head on time so he made himself at home at your 116th Street Station. He must have thought he was on the Brighton.
It's Beach 116th St station, NOT 116TH St. station. At least I can take the nearby Q35 at Beach Channel Drive and be home in 25 minutes. At least the station looks better than any of your Slum Beach stations. Plus on a nice cold day, I can walk to the Rockaway Boardwalk and take in the sea air. If I was on your line, I would be stranded at 86th st and need to take a bus (B1) to Brighton Beach.
Wait a minute, Brighton Beach is on my line!
It takes too long to write "beach", or B for that matter. And you can catch the Q35 at Newport Avenue, not Beach Channel (though the bus Does run on BCD, it makes no stops there.)
BTW Kool-D, I hope you are taking all my posts in jest. They are meant as such and I kind of like it when you bag on my train because it gives me a chance to get some digs in of my own. Living near the beach is really great but it has been so damn cold back there that even riding the subway can't warm you up. A walk along your beach at this time of year must really make the blood freeze.
You live 30 miles fromm the beach in Smog Valley, unless you call that sand trap at the Arboritum a beach
Hey Guys, wake the town and tell the people, #1 Brighton Express Bob has just emerged from the Montague Tunnel. I wonder if he brought some of his friends down there with him.
Hey Fred, how cold does it have to be before you have to wear long pants?:)
I love to have fun with you. But seriously, you should come back to NYC for New Year's 2004, not just to see the ball drop, but to join the Polar Bear Club for their annual swim at Coney Island. At least it's the REAL Sea-Beach and is much cleaner and safer than your namesake line.
My List:
1. Trashing the G train
2. Off topics (except for the Columbia disaster)
3. Jerks who come into this group, telling us Subtalkers that we have no life in railfanning.
4. Any thread with "76th St" attached to the text.
5. Praise for a Subtalker from Arcadia, CA; then he starts drooling at a subway line 3,000 miles away from where he sends messages at.
Just thing how boring your life would be if you didn't have the joy of reading my drooling over the Sea Beach train. You would be a boring as Mark Green. Come to think of it...........
That's why it would be so boring to say positive things about the Sea-Beach line. And in one of my first posts to you I was right, the best view of the Sea-Beach is the SBRW and the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, both of which was in the picture by BMT-doobbieW earlier this week, and the trash on the abandoned tracks seperating the line before the tunnel approach.
No wonder they call it the Slum-Beach, you line DOES need a lot of work. I hope NYCT will act soon in the 2004-2009 capital program.
Well that is the first semi-positive thing you've said about my train. Keep that up and you will become a buddy of mine.
Topics that ask us "What do you think is the most annoying topic that is repeatedly brought up on this page? "
NY State senator Joe Bruno
No doubt he is VERY annoying, yet it is important that the harm he has reeked (and continues to seek to reek) on NYC transit is something we need to be aware of aware of.
If Unca Joe gets his wish and makes the Sea Beach a shuttle, even Sea Beach Fred will register as a Democrat!!!!!! :-)
Well instead of me doing the unthinkable whattaya say I just go up to Albany and kick Joe Bruno's ass all over the place? Even an easy going, mild mannered gentleman like me can be pushed just so far. Make my Sea Beach a shuttle? What's next? Giving Kool-D a brain and anal transplant?
Now as a Republican, you wouldn't travel 2,900 miles to Albany to kick a Republican State Senator's butt, wouldn't you.
Hey Kool-D, if he tries to bag on my line in any way he is no political buddy of mine. I might even try to get you, AIM, and BMT Jeff to go up there with me and give him a blanket party.
"I might even try to get you, AIM, and BMT Jeff to go up there with me and give him a blanket party."
I am sure down with you on that score. Teach a Republican (who NEVER used any form of Public Transportation in a dog's age), a valuable lesson in giving the MTA more money.
Hey Fred,
I think you can talk Selkirk and me into joining your crusade. Remember, "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend"!
Gotcha Piggo. I never said all Gopers were straight arrows. From what Selkirk tells me that Bruno is a self-serving jerk who thinks nothing of welfare of the state in which he lives. His callousness towards the subway really gets my blood boiling. You and Selkirk are now on board.
Here's some self-serving for ya, fresh off the budget plate. Bruno is GOING AHEAD with his plans to build himself a brand new gilded Joe Bruno train station this coming summer in Saratoga (his district) and will be transferring FEDERAL FUNDS from the subway infrastructure fund to pay for it, at the expense of current projects.
But wait, it gets better ... word is that the shiny new "Turbo train" that would have run to NYC once Amtrak accepts it will instead run between the Joe Bruno station in Rensselaer and the Joe Bruno station in Saratoga once it's completed. The line handles "up to 4000 passengers per year."
But hey, it's NYC's loss, sorry for even mentioning it. :-\
And to think I thought federal UMTA money was specifically earmarked for certain projects. Diversion of funds intended for NYCT is one reason I cry "Foul!" when service cuts are proposed. I mean, it's Feb. 2003 and capital projects like Lex/53 and Cortlandt St. are falling behind, wanting for funding which would keep them on time. How about Flat & Atlantic? The entire infrastructure there has been daylighted and covered over with temporary structure while construction goes on above. If the NYCT funding is diverted upstate from this project, there'll be hell to pay. Joe needs to put down the Quack pipe...
Business as usual for the boy. Remember, he took CHINATOWN'S 9/11 cash for economic redevelopment and reassigned it to TROY ... :(
Who's gonna stop him? It's his party ruling DC as well. When it's all in the family, gets swept under the rug, just like when the OTHER party controlled everything.
Unca kev: weh be does go de mony??? 161 million collected for 911 improvements and four stupid kids drown in a sinking rowboat. I get a 'chump sum Christmas bone us in July' while others bitch about lack of ADA access in Sea Beach. Twenty two years later and I'm still working for the family but it is a lot of fun even at shorter wages but five eight hour days a week. 670 mill. surplus is found AFTER the TWU contract and three unions are balking that they will walk before accepting a pay cut. I can't buy a new car with my bonus but can buy one slice of pizza a day sans soda for a year. CI peter
'Kirk just hates Bruno because the Republicans dominate Upstate, so they are personally screwing him. I hate Silver more, because the Democrats dominate downstate, and are personally screwing me. The bottom line is that the perpetual incumbents are secretly all in it together, and screwing us all.
'Kirk just hates Bruno because the Republicans dominate Upstate, so they are personally screwing him. I hate Silver more, because the Democrats dominate downstate, and are personally screwing me. The bottom line is that the perpetual incumbents are secretly all in it together, and screwing us all.
All quite true ... of course, if New York voters (both in the city and elsewhere) used some brains rather than voting in a knee-jerk fashion, the incumbents wouldn't be perpetual incumbents.
(If New York voters (both in the city and elsewhere) used some brains rather than voting in a knee-jerk fashion, the incumbents wouldn't be perpetual incumbents.)
You must live in an unusual district. Where I live, there usually is only one name on the ballot when I get to vote, or one real name. And when it comes to state office, thanks to ballot access laws, there is often only one name too. That's one reason that the last election in NYC was so unusual -- it was a real election, at least at the primary level, both for Mayor and City Council. Contrast that with 2002.
The good news is the City is much better run than 20 years ago. The bad news is that the state -- we had one of the better states 50, 60, or 80 years ago -- continues to decay toward Byzantium.
"Where I live, there usually is only one name on the ballot when I get to vote, or one real name."
I assume that name is a Democrat. Have you considered registering as a Democrat so that you can vote in the primary? Most districts have a real contest in the primary.
Registering for a party does not mean endorsing that party's goals. Many suburban and upstate liberals register Republican so that they can have a voice.
Republicans don't have primaries. And thanks to the dummycraps, Bruno ran (as always) UNOPPOSED. Even in the old soviet union, there were mock candidates printed on the ballow in order to provide the ILLUSION of choice. Our boners have such huge brass clangers, that there's no vote at all in many places. :(
If we can't have a CHOICE, can't we at least have "NO" as a candidate, and if "NO" or "None of the above" wins, the incumbent must go sell street dogs in another city?
"Republicans don't have primaries."
There are Republicans other than Joe Bruno.
Sherwood Boehlert had a primary.
The suburbs often have primaries.
We didn't get to vote for John McCain either. Primaries tend to be an anathema for both parties these days.
AMEN! You found the queen. Play again? Double or nothing? :)
Gee Larry, it sounds like what we have out here in California. Glad to know that misery loves company.
Welcome to the political keepers of New York ... find the queen, find the queen, find the queen ... no soup for you.
Find the Queen and terminate wthout prejudice. I want to know why my utility bills collect surcharges for 911. MTA and computer access in the schools without doing so. I want a written breakdown on every bill. 911 systems stink, no improvements in mass transportation and the kids in school don't even have an abacus to share. Verizon had the nerve to send me a bill for one cent...postage is 37 cents. We need a special Sarin gas that affects persons with IQs below 80 (don't ask me about board effects or loss of CTAs.) CI Peter
I suspect that the "stupid bomb" has already been dropped. :)
POLLS!!!
1. "Save the Red(rust) birds"
2. "I want my railfan window"
3. "When will the Manhattan bridge re-open fully?"
4. "There is (not) a 76th Street Station"
5. "I think R-68's (hippos) are slower than other 75-foot cars"
Any topic that attacks specific persons or groups in an offensive way!
From the choices listed it's (2) 76th Street for me.
But you left the truly most annoying to me off your list -- i.e. the blatantly political ones. (most easily defined as any post originating north of Poughkeepsie with PATURKEY or BRUNO splattered throughout, but no mention of a corresponding SILVER.)
Unca Kevin only brings such matters up to highlight how Bruno and his handpuppet Paturkey would like nothing better than to make NYC transit a laughing stock. You read the proposals they had the nerve to even kick around; one example ---> run the R 4th Avenue express, the other W and N would be shuttles off it. This is not for midnights, it is 24/7. Only someone COMPLETELY IGNORANT about NYC and its transit system would even dream about that.
As to why Unca Kev doesn't hit on Silver, I can only speculate that it is because Assembleman Silver has never tried to gut the transit system here in NYC. I sure Kevin has his issues with Silver, but as much as many people on this board don't want to face the fact, transit is a political issue. When we discuss the political landscape with regard to transit (funding, capital planning etc) it is not off topic. In general Democrates have been more transit friendly than have been Republicans.
Transit is undeniably political. I'd never suggest such threads are off topic.
On the other hand, nothing in New York State gets done without the blessing of Pataki, Bruno AND Silver. To consistently ignore that fact is to be blatantly partisan -- which adds nothing to the debate.
CG
Beg to differ ... the ONLY reason why I don't rag on Silver is that he's completely IRRELEVANT. Almost as meaningful as the UN in the greater scheme of how things get done in Albany. If Silver DOES obstruct something the other 2/3 of government wants, it gets done at the executive level.
But in terms of transit, Silver is largely in the right place, and amazingly he's even done good things for upstate. If it's any comfort though, I left John Faso (minority assembly leader, now turned out of office) out of it through my own rants here and there because while the Aeembly is required to get bills passed, they are irrelevant in how things actually work.
I'm not at ALL partisan, I lob grenades at WHOEVER is in "power" ... you shoulda heard me whine about Padre Cuomo when he was "il duce" up here. I loathed HIM so much I voted for Paturkey, and in doing so, put myself out of a state agency in the process. In all sincerity, I'm quite bipartisan with my hatpin. Ain't my fault we've got more republicans right now than you can shake a ... ummm ... ummm ... at. If the tables were turned, you'd *like* me. :)
Hey Kev,
As much as I (someone who is proudly partisan) enjoy your rants aginst the right (Repubs), I could tell you were an "equal oppurtunity basher". Even if my side were in power, I think (I hope?) I'd still enjoy reading about the inner workings of Albany. You have a lot of wisdom that comes from your experience -and being a bright guy also :-).
We surely need folks like you to keep an eye on the "sausage making" as you love to say. Please continue to keep us informed. And I'm sure if Shelly Silver starts pushing anti-transit measures, you will let us know about. Still don't know why he sold out the city on the commuter tax in 1999; I believe it had something to do with a State Senate race in Rockland county (I think it was a special election to fill a seat), I don't see what he was trying to accomplish. The Democrates will never get the State Senate (and the same holds true about the Assembly for the Republicans), so his actions are even more mysterious.
Keep up the good work
Howdy and thanks for the kind words! Yeah, I'm at a MAJOR political disadvantage, I don't believe in Rush, and I don't believe in the New York Times either. When you're a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader, BOTH parties are just so full of it, it's coming out their ears and NEITHER is doing anybody any favors.
The motto of the state legislature is "go along to GET along" which means, I scratch your wallet, you scratch mine. And as far as Shelley Silver goes, he really *IS* meaningless when you have a 2/3 majority in the Triumvirat between Bruno and Pataki. Wouldn't be so bad if the 2/3 majority spread the wealth as it were throughout the state, but Paturkey is an absentee governor (he NEVER moved into the governor's mansion and is a rare sight in Smallbany) and that means that Bruno gets to feather his nest. Silver HAD to give that up in order to make other deals (like reupping rent stabilization 5 years ago) and other "compromises" to get the city some cash. And being in the minority, you gotta play "Let's Make a Deal" or you get nothing at all.
The REASON why I honk off about Bruno so much is that he's doing like the venerable Senator Byrd in West Virginia, feathering HIS little district at the expense of *ALL* others, and that just ain't right. He's a petty senator from a petty county that just can't see the "bigger picture" that there's citizens and taxpayers in OTHER parts of the state that need to be paid attention to as well. But THAT is why I'm off on Bruno, because he's never BOTHERED to rise to the office he holds as Senate Majority Leader and is screwing everybody that DOESN'T live in or relocate to HIS piddly county.
But yeah, a pox on them ALL. And yes, the INCUMBENT always wins. That's why we're IN this mess. If our state's politicos had *ANY* fear of the voters, we wouldn't be here, and public servants would actually serve the public. :(
I know what could melt you down in a minute. I am going to get you the date The Fenians are in New York City next month. Make it your business to try and get there for the occasion. It is Irish music like you never heard before in your life. I don't have a drop of Irish blood, but when I hear those guys Sea Beach Fred become someone named McGuire, O'Leary, or Halloran. Have a great weekend.
I'm familiar with them, but surprisingly don't go in for the "reel and jig" stuff myself. We have Celtic fests around here routinely, and frankly, if I hear another bagpipe, I'm gonna CHOKE someone. Sounds too much like someone gagging a cat. Heh. But thanks for playing. Don Pardo, tell Fred what he's won. :)
Hey, as the proud owner of 2 beautiful little calico cats, I may resent that remark about cats!
I've always been a kitty lover too, no felines were harmed in the recording of the Celtic Music Festival. And Calicos are JUST the ticket, keeps Ashcrofts at bay. Next best thing to menstruating. (gotta wonder what HIS kink is) ...
Your favorite subway car class.
All 24937249727877 times it's been asked.
anything with r142s
Nonsensical posts designed to offend and questions that are asked that can easily be answered by accessing the subtalk archives.
You forgot...(5) Any Topic created by heypaul
For me personally, it is #(1)....the museum will open when they are damn well ready to open it. Unless someone here directly works for the Transit Museum, then there is no reason why a post has to be made asking when it will open. And if you really want to find out there is the Transit Museum Online found at the MTA website.
BMTman,
Kewl it about the Transit Museum. Those of us in the know, know you have insider information.
;-) Sparky
EVen my 'insider info' is not reliable...so chill
1) Requests for directions. "I'm in Grand Central Terminal. Can someone tell me how to get to Times Square on the subway?"
2) Trivial problems. "My usual F train arrived three minutes late. Then we sat for two minutes in the tunnel. What went wrong on the F line today?"
Anything that's off-topic and has to do nothin' with transit.
Remember the insane number of "what service will run on 63rd St when the connection opens to Queens Blvd?" posts? No matter how many "no service plan has been decided" responses were made, they never stopped them.
You should have listed....
Most Annoying Topic:
People who bitch about every damn thing on the LIRR every time they ride it.
Most Annoying Topic:
People who bitch about every damn thing on the LIRR every time they ride it.
An old proverb (is there any other kind?) comes to mind, about not criticizing a man until you've walked a thousand miles in his shoes. In this situation, unless you have to deal with the LIRR horror show every day, you should be understanding of those - like me - who complain about it constantly.
I know you've said that you used to ride the LIRR, but that was many years ago. Time does heal all wounds, including LIRR-inflicted psychic ones.
I hate the LIRR.
Long Islanders are just whiners. No one whines in NJ, and now people are moving to NJ from Long Island and I have started to hear whining about NJTransit. I know some guy from Long Island who happens also to be the biggest whiner I know. The only guy I know who is worse is from San Francisco. Long Islanders should stop whining, about the LIRR, or other topics.
AEM7
I dunno, I think I do an awfully large amount of whining. Then again, I don't have a rail system that goes EVERYWHERE in the area I live.
Be thankful for what you have, it could be A LOT worse. You have no right to B!@#$ about how your train from Ronkonkoma (electric powered 50 some miles I might add) had a broken car, tough, wait for the M-7s, you're getting new cars if only you could just be patient and shut the heck up! You do realize that you are riding a railroad that provides service to stations over 115 miles from it's main station? And which can provide rush hour headways of less than 20 minutes at the terminals! There are people stuck on other commuter trains around the country (Metra and Caltrans comes to mind) who would kill for the kind of stuff you have now, don't waste it complaining about the small stuff.
hehe, actually Metra and Caltrain (not Caltrans which is the Calif. DOT) both do better than LIRR in terms of on time performance, but their systems are also substantially less complex and the schedules a lot more generous. Metra has the problem of freight interference which LIRR doesn't really have, but LIRR just has a lot more trains and run with equipment and systems that are just not anywhere near as over-designed or robust as the Metra equipment.
Metrolink, however, is another story.
But by Northeastern standards, LIRR really is pretty good. If you think LIRR service is bad, ride the MBTA, SEPTA, MARC, or VRE for a while then you'd get the big picture.
AEM7
"the schedules a lot more generous"
The good old Mussolini solution. If you make the schedules generous enough, (almost) any train system can be on time.
"If you make the schedules generous enough, (almost) any train system can be on time."
Good point. I originally wondered how come Holland made all its trains run on time - then I realised that that the trains generally don't go very fast! But it's a very small country so it really doesn't matter. And with everything running on time, you can arrange connections with confidence. (Actually, their timekeeping isn't as good as it used to be, though.)
Must be all those dispatchers in the kaffe shoppes. :)
"Zou u genieten van een andere? "
The posts on 76th Street were cute for about five minutes.
Well at least NOBODY complaianed about the Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Subway... so we MUST be making progress!
: ) Elias
They shouldn't scrap redbirds! Even if a really bad lurch causes one to fall off the 7 line somewhere.
-Robert King
Looonnng posts that detail what subway service they think should be after 2004 when the north side Manhattan Bridges tracks open, line by line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Announcements that this or that poster on one's killfile list.
Announcements that one is leaving SubTalk.
:-) Andrew
I thought I would be the subject for a lot of your vitriolic attacks because of my ranting about my Sea Beach. I didn't get too many. Thanks guys for going easy on me. I must be really popular on Subtalk to get such kid gloves treatment.
Ranting about how much you like something doesn't seems to annoy people nearly as much as ranting about how much you don't like something, based on the results I've read. So go ahead, harp on about the sea beach line with impunity!
Mark
As Uncle Floyd would say, "Oogie, you're *SO* negative." :)
this is easy .....................SUBWAYSURF....................
.....................LOL !
My choices are - not necessarilly in order.
1) What's the fastest subway car?
2) What's the slowest subway car?
3) What's the heaviest subway car?
4) What's the lightest subway car?
5) What's the fastest run? or the slowest?
6) Whats the best looking subway car? What's the ugliest?
7) Anything to do with railfan windows?
8) Highest and deepest stations?
9) Here's my idea to improve service.
10) Regurgitating any article by randy kennedy!!
To answer the question, "which is the fastest subway car?", I'd have to say it's the R-32. That thing flies. Anyone else agree?
Anything mentioning the Manhattan Bridge or a tunnel to Staten Island as a practical near-term thing.
-Hank
What?!? You mean the newly proposed QVC line linking Tottenville to Chambers Street via the 3rd deck of the Manhattan Bridge and the Ft Hamilton tunnel to Staten Island is just a rumour? I'm appalled!!
--Mark
Hey Hank, long time no hear. Are you still a Mets can. I can't wait to get to New York this coming summer so I can take the #7 out to Shea and see our team in action. They can't possibly be as shitty as they were last year. Can they? Good to see you posting again. And yes, the Sea Beach is still in the Montague rat hole.
I found work, and have no time to write. I spend any non-work moment prepping for my MCSA/MCSE.
-Hank
If it wouldn't take too long would you be so kind as to tell me what
MCSA/MCSE is? Glad you found work and hope you are raking in the bucks. Good luck with whatever those two groups are.
If the Mets do improve, then I'll stop calling Shea the Toilet Bowl.
You know I've heard a lot of people tell me what a crappy place Shea Stadium is. I really like it. Just about every seat in the house is a good one and the atmosphere is friendly. Compared to those fans who come to Yankee Stadium Shea fans are rabid but not nasty and discourteous.
Bull S+IT
I don't think Shea is a crappy place per se. It's just the way the Mets have been playing that makes refer to it as the Toilet Bowl. Then again, what can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
As a stadium per se, Yankee Stadium is a much better ballpark. Shea is a compromise design, one of those cookie-cutter, 1960s-1970s multi-purpose ballparks. The seats on the upper deck, particularly in the areas facing 1st base and 3rd base, are too far away from the field. The only really bad seats in Yankee Stadium are in the far reaches of the upper deck and the bleachers.
I meant Mets Fan? I have to proofread my work more.
And your team has won only two championships. But my baseball team was won 26 of them, guess which team is that? (Hint: we kicked your asses in the 2000 World Series.)
If we extrapolate out 75 years, that means the Mets would be in line for about 6 more championships. I'm sure they'll do better than that, right Fred?
And just think, by 2004, we will all be able to take the Sea Beach line to watch the Brooklyn Cyclones play.
--Mark
And I can take the Brighton Line to TWO different Cyclones. HA HA!
You have to to more than that. You have to undo Curt Flood, and go back to the days of 12 teams in all of baseball. When there's no competition, guess what?
Of course, the Mets haven't lost any first-round playoff games...
-Hank
You're forgetting the 1988 NLCS. It still makes me want to ralph.
That was a f****in disgrace, and to whom? THE DODGERS!!!, who are really a disgrace and have been since 1957.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on who you ask, I won't be around in 75 years so I need the Mets to start getting off the dime now. I would love to see another Subway Series. We owe the Yankees some payback. I still think if Benitez hadn't blown that save in game one of the 2000 Series the Mets might have been put in a position to win.
If the tying run could have scored from third in the ninth inning in Game 1, it might have put the Mets in a better position to win.
Fred..you're more likely to see the Mets win it all again than any fan who roots for the Red Sox or Cubs will.
Of Course..it would help the Mets if Bill Buckner was still playing..
Hey MP, thanks for the confidence builder. Only one problem. My second favorite team and top one in the American League is the Red Sox. So I have been hit with a double whammy. And my Mets? Good God, did you see how pathetic they were last year? They have a lot to make amends for, and hopefully, they will have a complete reversal of 2002 and finally do what they are supposed to do----get into the World Series. I'll tell you this: If it is another Subway Series there is nothing on Earth but death that will prevent me from seeing it in person.
Well, we just got another topic we can start planning to argue on. Do you live in the Bronx? You can't be a Queensian or Brooklynite and root for the Yankees.
Again BS
Again BS The last couple of years I was in the city at playoff time, or after a game, and there were hundreds of Yankee Fans changing from the 4 or D to the 7
the last couple of years I was in NYC during baseball seasons, there were lots of Yankee fans coming from the game changing from the 4 to the 7
Like vermin Yankee fans are all over the place. We even have that species out here in beautiful Arcadia, Cal. I do remember yesteryear in certain neighborhoods in Brooklyn that if you were a Yankee fan there was a good chance you would get the shit kicked out of you. That was very true in the black neighborhoods where everyone, and I mean everyone was a Dodger fan. Except for Italians who split almost down the middle and a few traitorous Jews who I will not name, I would say 80-90% of Brooklynites were Dodger fans. In Queens, in places like Ridgewood, Glendale, and Maspeth Dodger fans were well in the majority but Yankee fans could express themselves freely, unlike some other neighborhoods. I found most Yankee fans to be a disgusting breed.
Let me guess: you had your Joe DiMaggio/Phil Rizzuto fans and then you had your Carl Furillo fans, right?
Steve: Italians of every shade and stripe, regardless of what team they rooted for, loved Joe DiMaggio. They were proud of him as an Italian-American who made it very big. All, that is, but one person. That person was ME! I despised him and all Italian Yankees. It was a personal affront to me that Italians had to play on the Yankees and not on my Brooklyn Dodgers. We had Furillo and Campanella (who was half Italian so I will make him a Dago), a few subs like Belardi, Antonello, Cimoli, etc. However, the Yanks had most of the top notch Dagos---DiMag, Berra, Rizzuto, Raschi, Billy Martin, etc. That is why so many Italians liked the Yankees. It was the only reason they had any following in Brooklyn. If you were a Jew like Larry King or Danny Kaye, you were a Dodger fan to the bone. Oh, yes, there was Bob, but do we have to mention him? Blacks in Brooklyn? About 100% Dodger fans, Poles, Norweigans, Irish, etc, all Dodger fans. My fellow Wops spoiled it for the rest of Yankee haters.
Of course, the Giants had Sal Maglie, who would later join the Dodgers and pitch a no-hitter for good measure. Campy often wondered how The Barber always got the Dodgers out so consistently and after he had had a chance to catch Maglie, he found out. Campy felt that Maglie had the best curve ball of any pitcher of any pitcher he'd seen. He could throw it at different speeds and had amazing control of it.
"...Yankee fans could express themselves freely, unlike some other neighborhoods. I found most Yankee fans to be a disgusting breed."
Funny how Freddy the Fan and the Bleacher Creatures are world renowned in the media. At least we don't need a silly mascot who wears a dumb baseball on his head, calls himself "Mr. Met", and no I like the song "Who let the dogs out?" but it does not belong at an isolated place like Flushing Meadow Park.
Yankee fans have some amount of class, they can be disgusting and rabid to the opposing team, but not to other fans, per se.
Unlike you being transplanted to California, I was born in Brooklyn (Caledonia), raised in Brooklyn (Parkside Ave), and still live in Brooklyn (Newkirk Ave, now). I grew up in the days of taking and R42 D express, zooming from 59th st to 125th st, when it was a real ride back then, not the garbage timers in the new signal system now, to Yankee Stadium. I took the SS shuttle to Bontanic Garden, so that I can visit the Brooklyn Museum. The M train used 8 cars during rush hours and 4 cars in midday, sometimes besides the R30's I see, I would see an occasional R38 on the M.
I also watched the era of Guidry (19 K's against your buddies in CA), Jackson (3 pitches, 3 HR's in same game.), Munson (I cried that sad day), Nettles, Dent (thanks to him, the Curse lives), Randolph, Chambliss, Hunter, White, and of course Martin I, II, III, IV, and V.
Well when it comes to riding the subway you certainly had a big advantage over me as I could only ride the subway vicariously in my mind except for the times I would come to New York. Then I would go crazy trying to catch up for lost time, but, of course, you never do. Enjoy riding the trains because I can tell you that's the first thing I do when I hit town. As for the Yankees, they didn't do too well against "my boys" in '81 when they got crushed in the sixth and final game at your place 9-2. Very interesting "my boys out here." It will be really big news to my friends out here to know I'm a Dodger fan. They will probably be laughing their asses off at your assertion and wonder who the hell is that guy back east who thinks something as ridiculous as that?
LETS GO METS!!!
Hey TC, hope the Mets are hearing this. They were an absolute disgrace last year and they need to make amends with their fans. I took a lot of S$%t out here last year and I would like to return the compliments in-kind. They are too good to play the way they played.
Couldn't agree with you more.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting today that the Illinois Railway Museum got attacked by grafitti vandals. I don't have a password for the Trib site, and even if I did I wouldn't post the text of the article, but I can tell you generally what it said. Four CTA "L" cars at IRM got attacked; 6461-6462 were absolutely covered below the belt rail and 2153-2154 got heavily spraypainted as well. Three or four other pieces of equipment, including a Milwaukee Road F7B and some freight cars, were also hit. This apparently occurred sometime last week. The last time IRM got attacked by grafitti vandals was in 2001, when the exact same CTA cars - 6461-6462 and 2153-2154 - were hit. Damage is estimated at approximately $8,000.
Frank Hicks
God, that's sick.
Hi there. I'm from England and will be visiting NYC in about a month and i intend to take some subway pictures! I would just like to know which are the best places/stations to do this!
Photography in the subway, while technically permitted (as long as you aren't doing it for commercial purposes and aren't using a tripod or flash), is a bit iffy in the current political climate. That said, it's certainly possible - just don't argue with someone who asks you to put the camera away, even when you know you aren't breaking the law.
Absolute best location - Smith/9th. Spectacular views.
Next best location - any other elevated station. The run across the Rockaway Peninsula on the A is especially nice, as is the Dyre Avenue line and 125th on the A.
Underground locations - South Ferry and Chambers Street come to mind quickly, there are others as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Absolute best location - Smith/9th. Spectacular views.]
Was THE best spot until 9/11/01
[Absolute best location - Smith/9th. Spectacular views.]
Was THE best spot until 9/11/01
Dec 10, 2000
Feb 22, 2002
Yeah, thanks Bob...2/22/02 is a good shot...but it's not 'complete'...:(
Whatever you do - don't wear anything that looks like an orange safety vest and don't even think of asking a member of a train crew if you can ride in the cab.
I know that sounds silly but trust me, this board has learned from experience.
Here are my favorite locations:
33rd Street (7)
46th Street (7)
103rd Street (7)
125th Street (1)
Beverley Road (Q)
Whitlock Avenue (6)
Make sure you take a ride on the redbirds on the 7, especially an express run. If you go to 103rd once outbound express service starts, that is where trains normally pass each other, so you will often get pictures of two trains running abreast. Stand at the Manahttan end of the Manhattan bound platform.
If you go to 103rd once outbound express service starts, that is where trains normally pass each other, so you will often get pictures of two trains running abreast. Stand at the Manahttan end of the Manhattan bound platform.
Thanks for the tip!
Take Pride,
Brian
No problem, I hoping to get the 2 redbirds instead of the 2 (or really 3) R62As, but that didn't happen as you can see.
Oren Great Pictures.
I Love Stillwell on a Nice Clear day showing the Verazano Bridge
Most Views on the 7 toward Manhatten
Smith 9th St Of Course.
A view from the Top of the Wonderwheel Ferris Wheel overlooking the CI Yards.
Front Head End of the Brighton going toward the City
I'm not a New Yorker, having grown up 100 miles south (in South Jersey, a different country than North Jersey), so my knowlege base is lacking compared with many SubTalkers. That said, I have two pages of Webshots photos from the New York City area that receive MANY "hits", even when I haven't mentioned them or linked any of their photos for a while.
Around New York
Around New York 2
In southern cal.........
just sone suggestions here............!!
pico station blue line
san bernadio station metrolink ( take photos from bridge )
green line elevated airport / end of line
red line / union station
gold line construction views
the entire orange empire museum site
go to los angeles technical college
photograph blue line trains from roof-top parking !!
.............lol !
You don't state how long you plan to be here, which is certainly a factor on how mnay places you'd get a chance to visit. Anyway, to get an idea of where you might like to shoot pictures, have a look at my video list. Look for areas that I describe as "runbys". I post specific stations or areas from the street where I recorded video. These same locations usually make great photo locations. This should give you a good idea of where to shoot pictures. Most of the places I go are usually outdoors, but not always.
Stillwell Ave, West 8th St, Ocean Parkway and Neptune Ave stations are currently closed, although its worth a trip to Stillwell to see how the station renovation is progressing. And don't forget to grab a Nathan's hotdog while you're observing!
--Mark
Today CDoT announced that the New Haven Line's famous M-2 Bar Cars will not be converted into regular coaches due to rider protest and the fact that they make money. The New Haven Line Bar Cars are the only such cars on any commuter line in the nation.
And the profit history during the early 60's when the NH's "dining service"--mostly liquid--was unique among ALL US RR's.
Yay! I've never ridden one but I hope to sometime.
---Brian
By chance, last fall I went on a one-day trip to New Haven. It's nothing real special. A mostly empty car, with a bar in a corner, and a bunch of poles here and there, each pole has holder for three or four cups of brewskis.
So you apparently have to grab the pole with one hand, and chug down a cold one with the other. I think there are a couple of seats there too.
I don't know if they do this, but if they're making money on the beer in the PM, they should consider serving coffee and bagels in the AM.
It's easy to understand why the bar cars are only on the new haven line. It's a long ass-hauling trip. Even after running non-stop from manhattan to stamford, I recall that it took almost two hours to get to new haven. I can't see how people could manage to do that, five days a week, without the soothing effects of alcohol. I'm not surprised they're actually making money on those cars.
So someone spends 2 hours in the Bar Car, then drives himself home from the station? I wonder if they have considered the potential liability if some drunk crashes his car on the way home.
How are you exactly going to get home? (hehe)
If can pay for a taxi that costs the amount of your train ticket you wouldn't be riding the train in the first place. Just remeber they don't stop for pedestrians. Also they represent corporate america, drunks in power.
...I recall that it took almost two hours to get to new haven. I can't see how people could manage to do that, five days a week, without the soothing effects of alcohol. I'm not surprised they're actually making money on those cars.
The super-express is GCT to NHV in 94 minutes flat. Yes it's a long ass ride, I wonder why ConnDOT doesn't put some money into that line so Amtrak could run at 110mph. Looks like ConnDOT riders could benefit too. The signalling is still designed for 90mph operations.
AEM7
The Super Express is scheduled for 93 minutes, but it often makes the run in under 90, usually around 87 from what the engineer told me. All of the stops are "flag" stops for people getting on so the train is free to run ahead of schedule. For comparason the ACELA express makes the run in 81 minutes.
Get a laptop and do some office work or catch up on viewing your dvds. Or go reading subtalk with your Expressnet plug-in card (by verizon, 60 for 300 mis 120 for unlimited) slightly faster than dial-up (128k, real world 50-70k).
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats good to hear, I take it MTA's M-2s became all pax a while ago.
And the NH's M-2 bar cars are not the only Bar Cars in the country, Chicago's Metra has ex-CNW Bilevel bar cars. At least I think that they're still in service.
Chicago's Metra has ex-CNW Bilevel bar cars. At least I think that they're still in service.
On the Naperville line at least, these are not Metra cars but private cars operated under contract by Metra who subcontracts to BNSF. Some rich society of commuters actually own the cars, which are maintained by Metra. Access to that car is by membership only.
AEM7
the E-L and the north jersey coast line had privte club cars with deluxe seating.
You were thinking of cars 550 and 553, which are single level cars. Yes they run up to Kenosha and are rented out to a group which leases the cars.
The one time I rode on a Metra Bar Car train was on the CNW-NW line, and the car was open to all. The cars are number 7900 and 7901, built as part of the original C&NW BiLevel commuter, flat sided with 12 long windows per side and originally numbered 8 and 9. The doors were covered with large orange dots to identify them as club cars.
Unfortunately I was wrong about Chicago having bar service, both cars were disposed of in 1998. 7900 was stored and is currently in ready for service, while 7901 was sold.
The NH cars are not "club cars" by any stretch. Can you say "peeling burnt orange plastic laminate"? They're crammed with people who can't fit into the seats on the express, which are also crammed, and the bags of chips are right up to (down to) old British Rail standards.
But like the article said, I guess people talk to each other and, with renovations, I can see why they want to keep them.
Cool to know. Maybe on the way back from NH on March 30 from our gathering, I hope to catch one of these trains and chug a few Heinekens on the way home.
Last night I caught a glimpse of an r142 or r142a being delivered on a flat bed truck, passing the Fordham oval housing area. My question is if it was an r142, why would it be on a flat bed? I thought those cars were being delivered to fresh kill and sent up by diesel to the east. Number two if it was an r142a, I thought all of those were delivered. Number three, I saw the r142a on the 4 line. You guys are right that train looks horrible, I think if they clean it. It won't come out looking nice again.
That could have been an R-143 (the last one?) going from Yonkers to 207 Street, but it shouldn't be wandering all the way over to Fordham. Could be a "prescribed" trucking route.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Boarded at 63rd and Lex this morning on a downtown F the pulled into the station just after I descended down the third ste of escaltors. Very considerate! (G) Rode the lead car down to 14th where I transferred to the L. I spied (gasp!) a R40M motor on the point heading towards Brooklyn. Number 4547 was doing the honors and I had the railfan window all to myself. Must have caught one of the few non-R143s running the route.
The T/O was good, smooth on the brakes and he hit his marks without jerking the train around. He opened the cab door at one point at a station stop and I complimented him. I guess he doesn't get that too often because he stared at ne and closed the door without responding.
A number of orange vests boarded the train at Bushwick. Broadway Junction-East NY is still a wonder. The ENY yard, old el structures still standing w/o track, new trackage, and the L/JZ/AC lines all meeting up there is a railfan's dream! It's sad to see the old el structures coming down, though. The Atlantic Ave. work is still under way, of course. I detrained at Broadway Junction and wandered up and down the various platforms so I could get a better view of the various track configurations, etc. Wish I had Peter's book with me! And like a boob, did I remember my camera? Of course not.
Saw time was growing a bit short so I got back on the L and went as far as Sutter, where I headed back toward Manhattan so I could observe the BJ-ENY approaches from the other direction. I know this has been covered in earlier threads but w/o looking it up, what is the purpose behind the massive track reconfigurations?
At BJ-ENY I got off and hopped on a J to Marcy Ave. Nice run; it's been many, many years since I last rode this train. The "stained" glass panels at Marcy were interesting.
Paralleling the el is some old ground level trackage, w/o third rail. Is this SBKRR or old NH trackage? Is it still in use? Saw some large-scale construction projects underway near the el. Got off in Williamsburg and took a leisurely stroll over to Lee and down Roebling, until I found Gottlieb's delicatessen. Ah, a tongue sandwich on rye and a nice piece of kishka, for lunch. Heavenly (burp)! Stopped off at a bakery on Lee for some rugelach to bring to my hosts for this evening.
Strolled back to Marcy and resumed my trip back to Manhattan, rode over the bridge (crews were still doing work on it) and changed at Delancey for the F. Discovered I had a little more time than I thought before my appointment so I got off at W4th and grabbed the A up to Columbus Circle to wander around (damn tourists!). Geez, what a monstrosity the AOL-Time Warner building is!
Finished my appointment and took a downtown B from CC down to 47-50 Sts and transferred to an uptown F, back to 63rd and Lex. It looks like this station was very recently renovated; I like the red tile they used to covered the station walls.
Tomorrow I have to head up to Astoria but I'm stopping off at Grand Central beforehand to browse through the museum shop. Should be another fun day.
The construction you saw between Broadway Junction and Sutter Ave is to eliminate a sharp "S" curve on the northbound L track just north of Sutter, as well as to remove a lot of unneeded el structure. Two of the 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave will also be removed. That ground level track you referred to (alongside the L, I assume) is the former NY Connecting RR right of way (Now NY & Atlantic Railway) that runs from the Hell Gate Bridge to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn.
"That ground level track you referred to (alongside the L, I assume) is the former NY Connecting RR right of way (Now NY & Atlantic Railway) that runs from the Hell Gate Bridge to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn."
What's the history behind this trackage? Is this former NH or was it always NYCRR?
I think the part south of Ridgewood, Queens was built by the Long Island RR, but it was used by the New Haven for many years, starting about 1919 when the Hell Gate Bridge was opened. I think the NY Connecting RR was a joint venture between the New Haven and Pennsylvania RR (which then owned the LIRR). The line was electrified (overhead wire) about 1927, and it was an impressive sight to see those powerful NH freight electrics on that line. There even was some passenger service (run by the LIRR) until the 1920's and there is an abandoned station at Atlantic Ave. The line terminates at New York Harbor at Bay Ridge where the freight cars were put on car floats for New Jersey. There's an excellent condensed history of the line at http://www.junipercivic.com/berry/0401/mvrailroad.html (although the photo that accompanies the story is of a steam powered freight, not CSX). There's even a web site devoted to it: www.nycrs.org.
That is the Bay Ridge Line.
It was originally LIRR trackage that changed hands a number of times during the 20th Century. By the late 1980's the ownership was back in the hands of the LIRR (as is the case currently). They have given a long-term lease to the New York & Atlantic Railway which makes it's base of operations out of Fresh Pond Junction (Glendale, NY).
It used to have a branch-line that fed into southern Brooklyn, terminating at Manhattan Beach which was a major resort of the early 20th Century. That line was called the Manhattan Beach Branch and literally parrelleled the Brighton Beach Line (along E.16th St.) as far south as Sheepshead Bay before it veered eastward toward the eastern end of Coney Island.
I've heard this term used to describe a switch on the abandoned Rockaway Beach LIRR just south of the Whitepot underjump. I have no clue what this means. Does anyone know?
I believe a SPRUNG switch is one that is left alone and untouched, ie trains always go in the same direction all the time. I've never heard of a spring switch.
It's been used repeatedly on OLDNYC's Rockaway Beach Line page to describe a switch used to allow trains in both directions to share a single track connection to the LIRR mainline in the line's final days. I'm completely clueless as to what it means.
A spring switch is one in which the points (the moving part of the switch) are spring loaded so as to allow the train to enter from the direction away from the points of the switch. That is, as the train enters the switch, the wheels force the points to move over to the correct alignment. Each time a train wheel hits the switch, the points move over, and after the train is through the switch, the spring has returned the points to their original alignment. ;-)
I see. That means the switch would not have to be adjusted in any way for trains going in one direction, no matter what track it's on, the main track or the diverging track. This means that this switch south of the Whitepot underjump could be permanently set in one position yet still allow trains to cross it in both directions.
I had one of these on a train set when I was a kid.
You got it! Hope my post helped.
Chris, go to Branford this year and ask one of the volunteers to show you their spring switches. They allows the line to go from single track to double track on both ends of the yard limits without having to switch the tracks each time you cross them. As someone who spent years at the railfan window it was wierd when I took the operator's course and had to go through a switch that looked like it was set the wrong way.
You've been describing a restored spring switch; a switch that returns to the position it was originally set for. Some spring switches remain in the last position used.
Michael
Wash, DC
No, a spring switch always is set in one direction and stays there.
There is a type of switch that can stay in the position of the last movement through it, but I don't know what it is called. It's not a spring switch.
BTW, if a spring switch has a standard switch throw attached to the throw rod, it can be set for either normal or reversed (straight or curved, for the non-railroaders among us.
straight and curved.....but what about an equilateral turnout?
I've heard that type of switch called a "variable" switch.
The proper term is probably "non-restoring trailable"
The type of switch that stays in the last position of movement is a "slap switch," as the wheels "slap" the points across. There's one leaving Lechmere Station on the MBTA Green Line at the junction of the two platform tracks as the main rail heads up from the surface to the elevated.
We have two spring switches in use at Seashore: Leaving the Visitors Center Loop and also Talbott Park Loop. Spring switches can be set to either position. However they permit run-throughs from the "wrong" direction on trailing point moves. We use a [SS] sign on the switch stand to designate spring switches.
Are there any places in the subway where these switches could be utilized? I'm thinking the switch on the Franklin shuttle between Park Place and Botanic Garden would be one.
I would think that the fact that subway switches could be automatically switched by a towerman a spring switch would be unnecessary.
Spring Switches are cheaper and can free the towerman's time for more critical operations.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
I also saw another type of spring switch in the Harmon yard years ago in which the switch points stayed in the "pushed over" direction after the train (actually a locomotive) passed over it, something like a toggle switch.
Also called "trailable" switches, Spring switches are used to avoid the costs of interlocking and CTC. SEPTA has several instalations on the Rt 101 and 102 trolleys and the R7 Chestnut Hill West line and the R5 Doylestown line. In both regional rail cases they allow trains to switch tracks for the return trip. On the R5 the SS's are used to create a passing point midway down the single track Doylestown branch. The western SS is always set to the diverging route and the eastern one set to the straight route. Train one enters the diverging route and enters the siding and waits at a STOP signal. Train two passes train one on the main line trailing through the western SS. Train one then pulls out of the siding trailing through the eastern SS.
The western SS is always set to the diverging route and the eastern one set to the straight route. Train one enters the diverging route and enters the siding and waits at a STOP signal. Train two passes train one on the main line trailing through the western SS. Train one then pulls out of the siding trailing through the eastern SS.
illustration:
train 'two' taken from train 'one'
train 'one' taken from train 'two'
We have a few up at the Shoreline Trolley Museum. I hear that NYCT has one at one of the B Division yards (for moves onto the track leading to a trainwash).
It is truly a 'spring mechanism' as a train passing through what would normally be a switch set against it runs through the switch, with the leading flange of the wheels pushing the trailing points into alignment with the mainline (or flow of traffic). Once the wheels pass, the tension is released and the points will snap back to their original position. Spring switches aren't commonly used in rapid transit or even mainline use as they would break under constance use of heavy loads. You'll find spring switches on shortlines, trolley and lightrail lines, and on some mainline operations (usually in areas with speed restrictions).
"I hear that NYCT has one at one of the B Division yards (for moves onto the track leading to a trainwash)."
That switch, (99 switch) is on the wash track in Concourse yard. It was out of service last year for several months when it failed and parts to repair it, had to be fabricated.
Actually, many western railroads made large use of spring switches on mainline sidings before the advent of CTC.
The first time I ever saw one in mailine use was at the New Haven, Connecticut (electic) Engine House in the late 50's.
The locomotives (EP5s) would come out of the inspection track and switch back to the mainline yard lead. The swichback was a spring switch. I believe that the locomotives entered the engine house and inspection area and pit from the other end.
WOW! I know there is a market for collectible Metrocards - but isn't this a bit rediculous?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2157839277&category=4152
A BIT, that's straight up robbery! This person wants $3300 for a Paper pink Metrocard.
Did you look at the other Metro Card this person has?
There's one born every second....
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Whoa!!! he says this is the first time this Metrocard has ever been auctioned on eBay - yet he has another one at the same time - only this one is $500.00 MORE!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2153277312
He tried selling this card before, but obviously got no takers. You notice there is no bid provision, just "buy it now" ? A real greedy bastard.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's not realy a MetroCard, it's a "Transfer", and to be more precise it was an example of what a Transfer was goig to look like. I was shown it when they were getting ready to roll out the Cubic system.
I don't believe the TA had too many of them, so they may in fact be rare. I had three, traded two for some other MCs & kept one for myself.
P.S. the price on it is 1.25 vs. 1.50.
Remember the song: "High Hopes"?
That is what the seller has.
Personally I think he is few cars short of full consist.
Dang! We're talking a lone axle rolling down the pit. :)
Once you buy that Metrocard, you might also want to buy this to go with it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2158351680&category=4152
Geez, I thought it might be a metrocard holder!
I wonder what knucklehead will pay $10,000 or more for a roller sign box from an R-1/9?
#3 West End Jeff
Hahahahaha ... OK, kids ... anybody seen Heypaul since last night? :)
What's NEXT? $20,000 for Heypaul's player piano? SELL!!!
Maybe heypaul needs a few rolls for his player piano if he really has one. I'm certainly not going to buy a player piano myself since I can play the piano. I'd rather have the piano piled high with sheet music rather than paper music rolls.
#3 West End Jeff
I've toyed with the idea of buying a player piano someday. One with a foot pump, that is. You can really exercise your legs on one of those, especially if the exhaust bellows aren't leaking.
Player pianos can be a lot of fun if they're working right. I have managed to get a foot powered player piano to play. If you're lucky, you might even find a roll with one of the early songs about the subway.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe not the piano but R-9 cab just might get $25,000 ;-)
Oh HELL, he'd NEVER let it go for THAT LITTLE. Dick CHENEY couldn't afford Heypaul's Arnine cab. :)
A rollsign box for $10000, he's been smokin WAY too much pot :0). And I thought the $3000+ Metrocard was bad [which it is] but it DOESN'T compare to this.
A rollsign box for $10000, he's been smokin WAY too much pot :0).
Look again; the ganja's wearing off :).
At least he brought his asking price more down to earth. Perhaps he did his homework and realized that the rollsign box isn't worth $10,000. Maybe he'll sell it much more quickly at $900 rather than $10,000.
#3 West End Jeff
At least he saw that NOBODY was going to pay $10000 just for a R9 rollsign. Now $900 is a fair price.
IIRC, the original description said "20s-40s era;" that has also been adjusted.
But it also says:
"LOOKS LIKE THE bmt OR irt LINE"
Wrong!
C) None of the above. Or should that be CC?
"Now $900 is a fair price"
Gasp! You think?
Its more reasonable than the ORIGINAL ASKING price of $10000! But rollsigns are usually cheaper than $900 but its a older rollsign. The Redbird rollsigns are going for $150 currently I think.
I paid something like $40-$50 for my IND front destination sign at Cityana Gallery in 1978. Lugged it with me on a CPW joyride on an R-42 D train. Lots of dirty looks.
$900 is still a steep price. But notice the sign is between two destinations. Smith-9th Sts. and Brooklyn Church Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was most likely from an R-1/9 car.
#3 West End Jeff
I still wonder what the signbox will wind up selling for.
#3 West End Jeff
After waiting awhile for a downtown train at 49th st on the BMT Broadway line, a Slant R40 N pulls up, and of course I grab the railfan window. Anyway, at 14th st, the doors in our car dont open, then they open, a minute after all the other ones did. The T/O and the C/R spoke over the intercom, and radioed in the problem, as well as a "dead battery" (battery for what, the lights?).
We proceeded, and then stopped with the first car in the station where an RCI boarded through a keyed open door. The T/O repeated the problem, a slow door and a dead battery. I took the train to Cortlandt, where they gave instructions to go in the middle at Whitehall and proceed in service, once the problem was fixed.
This train must've been having problems before I boarded, because right behind it was another N (an R42!). So if anyone got delayed on the BMT Broadway line around 12:45pm, that was the culprit!
Also saw two circle Q's going downtown in a row.
The low-voltage system is used to power the doors. Dead
batteries, high-resistance contacts, and the like can result
in there being insufficient voltage to open the doors. This
usually affects the cars at the end of the train since they
are farthest away from the conductor's position, which supplies
the voltage.
OK, thanks! That explains the doors not opening!
Since the C/R operates from the middle of the train and the doors of the first car did not open, would the last car be affected the same way?
I'm not sure I fully understand Qtraindash7's report, so let
me qualify this by saying that it may have absolutely nothing
to do with what was reported.
Anyway, a problem that has been cropping up from time to time
is that doors won't open. This usually happens on either the first
or last pair of cars.
In order for the doors to open on a particular side of the
train in a particular zone, two trainline wires need to be energized
from the Master Door Controller at the conductor's position.
They are the Door Open and Door Unlock wires, the names of which
are hangovers from the triggers-and-caps days. These wires energize
relays in each car. It takes something like 28 volts to pick up
the relay, which is 10 volts lower than the nominal battery system
voltage. So that's the margin.
There are 3 things to worry about: 1) if the low-voltage system
at the conductor's position is not functioning well, the B1+
voltage there will be lower than normal. It can be due to a bad
"static converter" or sometimes a really bad battery pulls the
line down. 2) at each electric portion interface (i.e. between
cars that are not part of the same married pair or linkset)
there is contact resistance at the pins. Since current must flow
through the trainlines to energize the relays, this results in
an I-R voltage drop.
3) is the most amusing. The low-voltage system's negative is
tied to the body of the car (i.e. "ground") As you know, one
of the rails, which is in good contact with the car body, acts
as a return for the 600VDC power. There are welded-on bonds around
each rail joint to ensure a low-resistance path through the rail
and back to the negative feeder cable connection. If there is a
section of rail with bad bonding, then the return rail will offer
a higher resistance than usual. 600V return current will seek
a better path. When a train is straddling the problem area,
the current will flow partially through the train itself back towards
the better ground. This current flow will happen through the link
bars and couplers, which do not make an excellent connection.
If there is a train ahead (away from the good ground) that is
drawing power part of its return current may also flow through
the standing train. Even if not, a standing train can draw almost
100A per car factoring in compressor, HVAC, lighting and converter
loads. At that current, a 20 miliohm coupler/link bar resistance
per car will cause a 10 volt different in potential between the head
car and the conductor's car on a 10-car train. This effectively
raises the negative low-voltage system reference point by
10 volts and erases that margin for making the relays pick up.
The further away the car from the MDC, the more factors 2 and 3
contribute to voltage drop and erratic operation of the doors
(and also PA).
Once the doors do open, it's rare that they'd close by themselves
since relays will stay held in on a much lower voltage than is
needed to first pick the up.
Ah the thrills of grounding and bondage. Similar things happen in the cable TV industry where the shield of the coax replaces broken power company neutrals. Cable suckout occurs on a pole, and a whole street goes dark. Now imagine P-wire dealing with all that. :)
Thanks Jeff!
I'm never going to be an electrical engineer but I think I understand door operating problems much better now. :-)
I have in my collection a GE lightbulb that was given to me many years ago because it was supposedly transit related. The bulb is small, about the size of a household 25 watt incandescent bulb. The markings are unusual in that they specify 50W 75V, Train, Rough Service. I thought it might be a battery light from transit, but that 75V sure knocks that theory out based on your post. Could this bulb possibly be from a diesel locomotive instead?
Well, when it is all said and done there can only be one reason for what happened on my N train. SABOTAGE!!!!!!!!
Well then, let's punch that color chart up to ORANGE then. :)
(been orange in NYC since it was implemented, but they've got wet pants in Atlanta now)
Yes, approximately 75 volts is commonly used on the low-voltage
system of locomotives.
The propulsion current problem is somewhat alleviated by negative rail cross bonding, or structure bonding outside.
Would the problem of the lights going out in a car at certain stations be related to bonding and such?
If so, I think I followed Prof. Jeff's discertation, very well put for a electrical dummy like me.
Negative rail cross bonding just spreads the return current over all available rails, rather then just the one the train is on.
Possibly, although another explanation is a bad stretch of contact
rail that gaps the car in the station.
Post GOH car wiring will drop out the emergency relays when the batteries drop below the 28 volt margin. If the battery switch is opened, or the battery grounded or defective at the time the car goes through a third rail gap, emergency lighting is extremely dim, and the train usually goes into emergency. I figure the train operator was reporting the conductor's portable radio was B/O. Not too many eyes were sharp enough to mind dimming headlights. On PA 14 car light trains, the indication loop circuit is enough to light the MM light, but sometimes not enough to pull in the master controller relay. Bypass time. Most of my indication problems were on the Rockaway line, with the substandard LILCO voltages. I recall in the early '90s, the R38 cars being recalled out of service one summer for convertor problems. One of my trains during that period had at least one car of stalled doors, no emergency lighting and had to be flagged to the yard other than head car.
Aahhh, good old LILCO, now LIPA, but I guarantee you, the change is just in name.
The voltages out here are lower, as many high end electronics stores have digital voltmeters hooked up to their systems. Out here they read 117/118, in NYC, usually 121/122.
The dead battery was in reference to either the C/R or T/O radio battery. I think in this case it was the C/R battery. Maybe they was trying to contact a nearby tower to get a fresh battery for the radio.
Da Beastmaster
Where are the battery vendors ("one dollah! one dollah!") when you need them?
"This train must've been having problems before I boarded, because right behind it was another N (an R42!)."
Are you sure it was a R42? There are only R40M's I saw on the N, although the mismatched car paring a R40M with R42 you might be referring to (car #4460 with #4665), is on the Q diamond today. I doubt it would be on the N the day before.
Well it could've been an R40M, but it sure looked like a 42 to me.
The R40M looks like the exterior of the R42, but the interior is R40 slant, right down to the railfan windows. The difference between the R40M and R42 (aside from the car #'s) are what I call the lines on the bottom of the car body, lengthwise. Thin lines tells you it's a R40M, thick steel lines, it's a R42. The lines are at knee/leg level when you are facing the car.
Did I really see Slants and R-40Ms or 42s coupled together in CIY from the Belt overpass today, or did I just imagine it?
Probably not. I've seen R62A's connected with Redbirds at Corona Barn, so you're not alone.
"Did I really see Slants and R-40Ms or 42s coupled together in CIY from the Belt overpass today, or did I just imagine it?"
Could be a yard move or wash train. Doubt if it was going in service.
Bill "Newkirk"
True... if such a train were in service there'd be 1,546,883 posts about it by now. But thanks, your explanation makes sense in light of the CIY location.
How did you come up with the number 1,546,883 :-P.
Ok here's my real response. Maybe it was coupled and was used in the CI yard. You think that's something, look at this, this is NOT a lie. One time I saw a R68-R68A train coupled together IN SERVICE! I saw this back in the summer on a W train at 34 St the #'s 2746-2747-2749-2748-51xx-51xx-51xx-51xx. I couldn't believe it, I was *SHOCKED* :-0!
That not that faw fetched. I Opt. one back in the summer before the MB closer on the B.
Robert
What's so odd? This sort of thing used to happen regularly in service in the 1970's.....many photos of mixed classes exist in the photo sections of this web site.
Today I rode a nb (C) train that was half R-32 and half R-38. I realized this when I thought I was getting on to an R-38 but when I reached to grab the nice low overhead bar, it wasn't there! So I knew I was on an R-32. A quick glance at the car's number and the ribs reflected off the station wall double-confirmed this. I triple confirmed it by looking at the train as I exited it. Half & Half. Nothing wrong with that!
Take Pride,
Brian
I've seen this in the past too on the C, where sets of R38s and sets of R32s were running as one train.
Also, I remember seeing R68s and R68As running together on the N. First four cars were 68s, last four were 68As.
Uh, mixing 68s and 68As is standard. So is mixing 32s and 38s. Mixing 40Ms and 42s was standard, and still happens. I think 62s and 62As have been spotted together--anybody able to confirm this? What I want to know is, has there been a recent mixed consist of 40s and 40Ms, or 62s and Redbirds? Also, when did they stop mixing all the classes together?
I don't ride the subway enough to see these instances but I know it is possible. Here in DC, the Rohr cars (1000 Series) can be MUed with the Breda cars (2000, 3000, and 4000 Series). This is still possible even though the Rohrs have AC traction and the Bredas do not. No sightings of the new CAF cars (5000 Series) running with Bredas or Rohrs. The CAFs do have AC traction.
I don't ride the subway enough to see these instances but I know it is possible. Here in DC, the Rohr cars (1000 Series) can be MUed with the Breda cars (2000, 3000, and 4000 Series). This is still possible even though the Rohrs have AC traction and the Bredas do not. No sightings of the new CAF cars (5000 Series) running with Bredas or Rohrs. The CAFs do have AC traction.
Also, I know the R142 and R142A have run together in revenue service.
Yeah I know the car you're talking about. I can't find it in my butcher block book, but I think that car was in the 3900's, right? If we're not talking about the same car then there is another.
One C job I had, got on what I thought was a 32, from the outside, but on the inside was that of a 38. The only difefrence on the outside is that it had the 38-style roof w/sign. The cab also had the looks of a 38 (different location of the controls from that of a 32).
One C job I had, got on what I thought was a 32, from the outside, but on the inside was that of a 38. The only difefrence on the outside is that it had the 38-style roof w/sign. The cab also had the looks of a 38 (different location of the controls from that of a 32).
That's an R-32GE.
Ah. Didn't know of appearance differences. Which also means the car # I posted earlier would also be wrong -- it would be 3893.
Ok, found my book, but with so many car #'s in there, I can't be sure if this is it. But was the car you were on #3985 by any chance? Its underlined in my book, and I'm pretty sure I saw it last time I was working the C.
Its not uncommon to see a R32 mixed with a 38, I see it pretty often actually. Now once I saw a R68 mixed with a R68A on the W last summer now THAT was strange. It was done a lot in the 70's and 80's, you would see a R10 mixed with a R27 or a R12 with a R33, maybe 3 or more different classes to make a 10 car train.
In the yard, anything goes! I've seen yard moves with R-68s and R-40s in the same consist.
--Mark
Heck, I've seen IRT and IND cars in the same consist out on the main line... (oh wait, that's at Branford...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They could have been laid up close to each other but not coupled.
Back in the 70's, I can remember R40 slants, coupled to R27-30's. Whats the big deal..
Okay, so I made the second part up.
Now there are 3 links, Door A, Door B and Door C. Only 1 takes you to the Columbia Spectator article.
Door A
Door B
Door C
Actually, I appreciated opening Door C as it shows you have good taste in movies!
(Uh, please excuse the compliment...I must be getting tired).
Uh....I mean Door B (boy was I tired!)
Uh....I mean Door B (boy was I tired!)
Yeah, you have been looking a bit like the Michelin Man lately :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Opponents of the proposal argue that, while the renovation is welcome, the artwork is an unnecessary compromise of the original architectural vision of the stations, and that the history of the neighborhood would be better served by honoring the intentions of the stations' architects."
I agree with their view. Better to keep a station looking new, yet having the same features it had 100 years ago instead of adding art which would not compliment the architecture well.
Wished something similar happened with the 28 st station.
Carolyn Kent of the Morningside Heights Historic District Committee agreed that all
stations should be preserved in their original forms. "When you have an interior
system designed by men of such genius, it would certainly be a mistake to attack their
remaining intact work," Kent said.
BRAVO!
wayne
Awwwwwwww ... they coulda put together Roy Lichtenstein, the THINK team, Michael Brady and Cartoon Curator HeyPaul and had a HELL of a renovation team going here...
I always thought that the word hogger was a slang expression for a railroad engineer, mainly pertaining to the old days when engineers operated steam locomotives.
I was told today that the correct use of the word refers to the steam engine itself, and not the engineer.
According to my source, the lead engine was the hogger, and the helper engine was the pusher. I am familiar with helper engines being called pushers, but not with the lead engine being called a hogger.
Any comments out there?
Whoever told you that is mistaken. The term hogger, hoghead, or sometimes simply hog is a reference to the engineer, as you have always thought. On the Pennsy, the assigned engine on a heavy freight was often called the dragger while the helper engine was called a snapper, because of the tendency of a train being worked by two or more engines to have excessive slack action... which, if managed improperly by the helper engineer, could snap the train in two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, Chris, it's nice to know that I have not been wrong all of these years! :-)
Steam locomotives were called "hogs". Those who ran them came to be called hoggERs.
Again..what does that mean? I forgot.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think it's just a fancy way of saying that a red signal is preventing the train from leaving Penn Station.
I think it means more than that. I think it's like a starting light. The signal is in the middle of the platform. The engineer can't see it. The conductor tells the engineer "OK to go" when the signal displays restricted.
Michael
Wash, DC
That's it, the Conductor is saying you have permission to proceed at a restricted speed, because I can see the signal but you can't. And since the Conductor can't see out the front window, he can't authorize a speed greater then restricting.
So it doesn't mean "please move the dam hanger because I can't see"
< grin >
Restricting is the aspect of the signal in question. "On the Hanger" refers to any signal that is behind the engineer but is protecting a switch in front of the train. The engineer must know the aspect of the hanger before proceeding throught he interlocking.
'Always observe the aspects and read the irons...movement in the yard is limited to 10 mph and notify tower if unfamiliar with movements.'
It's pick time unca Steve and you were so very right...I've moved up five pages!!!!!!!!! BeH had his own forte' about what he looked over
and if you were a slacker, you covered. Marti likes clean angle cocks
and TCU boxes, chewing out a SUP FOR MY BACKFILL WORK when I had a flagged dirty car and check every valve and fitting for leaks. I hate backfill when I have to bring a car up to date for the next six months unprepared in the morning....inspections run about every two months. The point I'm making is that the readers on this board must know that most of the crew in Car Equipment works really hard to maintain trainsets and insure passenger and system safety and is never seen or recognised. Remember the last seies of safety awards..those nice stainless steel Thermos??? I carry a beat up Stanley with a rusted bottom! Never a word of thanks.
You have less than two weeks of decent sleep before my pick. You never know when I might drop in to haunt you. You have trainsets that need unavailable parts??? I have my ways because everyones job depends upon a working trainset even if supply has to outsource. This is good work and everyone benefits when we MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
This stems from an Amtrak Special Instruction applicable to Penn Station. It pretty much says that if a train is stopped between signals and:
The signal ahead is a STOP signal
or
There are switches between the two signals, regardless of signal
indication ahead
a train needs either verbal permission to proceed
or
the signal to the rear must display a proceed aspect. Since the train is shunting the track circuit between signals, in order to display that signal , one must "punch a hanger"- in other words, request a call-on, yielding a Restricting aspect. Why is it called a hanger? Because in Penn, the only difference between a STOP and RESTRICTING aspects is the yellow light illuminated at the very bottom of the signal case: it kind of "hangs" off the bottom.
I only heard LIRR folks say "restricting on the hanger" implying that, to them, a hanger is any signal that the train is hanging past.Amtrak and NJT crews would say "restricting on the starter", referring to a starting signal. "Hanger" is a term usually used by Block Operators, not crews.
As for why this rule? That requires a new thread on sectional route locking...zzzzzz
EGGS!
Awww, GO for it! Heh. Beats the hell out of baseball scores. :)
Just heard that a barge (redbirds perhaps?) struck the Spuyten Duyvil swing bridge, and as a result of the damage to the bridge, Amtrak trains to and from upstate are operating to Grand Central and NOT Penn Station. Can't wait to hear what happened, but figured anyone planning on using Amtrak to get upstate or expecting folks FROM upstate might want to know that all Amtrak Empire service is operating out of GCT and not Penn until they can check out the bridge and make repairs if necessary ...
Wow, that's big news. Keep us updated. Thanks.
---Brian
Nothing to report (it's SNOWING in NYC so the world is ending) but it's going to be out until it's thoroughly inspected, word on the Amtrak frequencies is the diversion is SCREWING UP GCT with the extra trains they didn't expect, but Meatball North Hudson line is doing its schedule until the big bunchup into GCT ... that's all she wrote other than Amtrak BLE brothers wondering when the hell they're going to get a lineup. :)
WOW THIS IS AMAZING! WHY DOES THE GOOD STUFF HAVE TO HAPPEN WHEN IM ON VACATION!!!!! SO IF I GO TO GRAND CENTRAL, MY CO WORKERS WOULD BE LIKE WHAT ARE U DOING HERE! BUT I AM TRAVELING VIA AMTRAK THIS MONDAY TO BUFFALO DEPEW. KEEP ME POSTED ON WHERE I MIGHT HAVE TO CATCH MY TRAIN!
IM SURE ALOT OF MY MNRR CO WORKERS WILL LOVE AMTRAK TO GCT, IT WILL PROVIDE THEM WITH A DIRECT RIDE TO ALBANY, ALOT OF OUR ENGINEERS AT MNRR LIVE UPSTATE
No It Wasn't A Barge Of Redbirds
Peace,
ANDEE
Ah well ... I was hoping for "The BIRDS III" ... dammit, you could ruin a wet dream. :)
Yea! as in that famous school scene in "The Birds": "one redbird plus one rebird is two. Two redbirds plus two redbirds make four...."
Put *DOWN* the Quack pipe. :)
...causing Amtrak trains who use the bridge to detour.
Amtrak trains who ? Now the trains are people?
I wonder where they got the equipment for the early departures from NYC? The equipment would not have been at GCT.
Presumably NYP to New Rochelle, then reverse to GCT.
No useful info on the Amtrak web site about whether the early trains out of NYC actually happened or not.
well they could send it through sunnyside yard onto the hell gate bridge, and switch to Metro North territory at Chelle interlocking aka CP216. relay and move the trains south over our territory to Grand Central. most of Amtrak crews are qualified on our signals. and plus Grand Central has the most signals, on the mainlines all u see is either proceed cab(flashing green) or a double red(stop). they could throw u a absolute clear as well, which is a combo of both flashing green and flashing reds.
No Amtrak crews are qualified from Shell to GCT or From CP 12 to GCT.
just knowing what a signal looks like does not make you qualified. and any crew member not having worked part of a territory automaticly looses qualifications after one year.
yea but they never enforce that. i know several LIRR engineers and conductors, who have been runnin the Far Rockaway line for years! then for overtime, LIRR recently has a shortage of engineers, so he was asked to run the babylon line. he hasnt run a trip to babylon in 3 years. yet he did it anyway. in MNRR, a engineer could only be qualified on the hudson, and they can still ask him to run NH even tho he aint qualified. welcome to the RR. besides Acela crews are qualified in chelle interlocking
as Metro North Engineer I can tell you that any engineer operating a train in territory he is not qualified, would face decertification by the FRA. Nobody is stupid enough to fake it as the computers tell manpower who is or who is not qualified anymore.
yes Amtrak crews are qualified at shell interlocking, but not from Shell to GCT.
I'm just glad there's no repeat of the Sunset Limited barge-meets-bridge incident .
Question. Which equipment are being used to run to Grand Central? Are the Amtrak FL9's back in use or did they use the Turboliners? If they used the P32-DM's, I didn't know they could work on NYC under riding third rail.
I think they were all P32AC-DMs. Only one Turboliner set has been running on the Empire Corridor (don't know if it ran today), but it's been hauled by a Genesis for several months now.
That turboliner's been sitting in Rennselaer adjacent to the platform tracks since Late December... hasn't moved... attached to about 4 F-40s who haven't moved either. The new Turbo's been sitting in the yard, looks like it has moved (marker lights are lit at least).
P32AC-DM's have the ability to collect 3rd Rail power. Metro-North also uses P32AC-DM Locomotives.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
The question is that Penn uses Overrunning 3rd rail. Thus, the engines are all designed for Penn's 3rd rail. However, MN uses underrunning. (or did I get them confused?). How did the trains run?
The only realistic possibility is diesel.
Do Amtrak trains from Albany to Penn use the third rail for the last few hundred yards? I didn't think they could operate on third rail power. I thought they used diesel.
actually to get in Grand Central, a dispatcher i called from my house who works with me at GCT, has said that MNR has a engine crew tow them with our genesis, relay them and pull them back out to CP5 which is above 125th street which seperates the 3 lines
they are piloted to CP12 were Amtrak crew takes over, the MNCR crew gets off at yonkers.
The Amtrak DMs have shoes that flip up so they don't touch the underrunning third rail between Spuyten and Croton.
As mentioned in other posts, MNR DMs are powering the section between Spuyten and GCT.
The MNR DMs have fixed shoes for underrunning and therefore not allowed in overrunning sections.
What the HELL!!!??!! I guess it was only Diesel Trains entering GCT, because there's no catenary there.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
How would an AEM-7 or HHP-8 or any other Amtrak locomotive that is powered by only electricity get to Albany in the first place? Answer that, then we can try to figure out how it will get to GCT.
I just said that there is only Amtrak Diesels entering GCT, and there was no catenary, Did you even read my post?
You did not say that. You said I guess it was only Diesel Trains entering GCT, because there's no catenary there. Saying "I guess" means you are not stating a fact, I was informing you what was in fact going on since you didn't seem to know.
So to answer your question, yes, I did read your post.
Aren't the Genesis locomotives dual powered to run on 3rd rail?
Here's some more info on the Amtrak diverted to GCT:
Amtrak Diverted to GCT (www.railroadn.net)
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
If pilotage by MNRR is required for Amtrak moves into/out of GCT, does this extend to MNRR territory outside of Manhattan or is pilotage only needed to 125/Park?
MNRR pilots are required from CP12 (spuyten duyvil) to GCT. and yes the Amtrak engines run in Diesel, as their third railshoes don't work on under running third rail.
Today I heard over the GCT PA that Amtrak 7:40PM to albany will be on track 21. I waited around till 8:20PM when the stupid thing arrived. It had a bunch Amfleets coaches and a genesis diesel something 709 or 719, more likely 719. MNRR diesel 211 was pushing it into GCT.
bumper baggage car-14 amfleets-Amtrack 719-MNRR 219 toward 125th
There was no cab on the gct end of the train. Just a guy with a radio sticking his head out the open door and another guy using the mechancal brakes. This was definetly NOT MU operation. The amtrak genesis was facing 125th at the north end of the train. After is MNRR 211 was pushing it (backing it) into the terminal. They uncoupled the MNRR Genesis. I think something happened with the air brake hose because it made a explosion noise like disconnecting a air compressor hose with quick connector endings. The Genesis left and backed into another track and disappeared from view. The amtrak guys started up the Amtrak Genesis. YES, WITH THE DIESEL ON! It barely smelled but you could see it floating around in coulds.
A MNRR guy put a blue lantern on the platform and went down on the track with the Amtrak Genesis started and proceded to do something that I couldn't see. At this point it was 8:33pm and I decided to leave and go to my intened destination.
One thing, WHY were they running the amtrak diesel in GCT?
(illegal but I've seen RDCs in GCT (How they get there?))
Also is this a normal run?
Also the Amtrak conductors were extreamly nasty and had officers remove anyone who tried to pass them on to get on track 21 platform. I even got yelled at. I left and went down the 19/18 tracks platform to look at the Amtrak.
MNRR had to run diesel locomotives into GCT during its first few months of operation to allow for adequate service into and out of Manhattan during rush hours. They also ran RDCs into GCT, but usually as trailers in loco-hauled trains. This was before the M3s Bombardier push-pull cars arrived.
What the.....
First M3s aren't push-pulls. Second I don't think they were made by bombardier, but by budd/transit america.
What the.....
First M3s aren't push-pulls. Second I don't think they were made by bombardier, but by budd/transit america.
I saw at least one R-32GE (but I assume they travel in pairs) on the end of my sb (C) train this morning. This was the first time I actually looked closely at the end of an R-32GE and I saw that the area around the flip dot sign does look a little different that the regular R-32's.
Anyhow, go outside and get photos of the subways in the snow! Do it for me cuz I'm stuck inside.
---Brian
Peggy Darlington asked me to post this:
on Sunday 4/27/03 Peggy will hold her next field trip of the Eastern Division BMT
Meet at 9 am at McDonald's in Penn Station near the LIRR ticket windows.
Price one fun pass or unlimited MetroCard
Wear walking shoes and avoid flashy jewelry or clothing. We will do numerous off system walk unders
Stops include:
Chambers Brooklyn bridge Complex
Canal Complex
Bowery
Delancey/Essex Complex
Marcy
Myrtle Broadway (Change for M)
Myrtle Wyckoff complex
Metropolitan
Chauncey
Broadway Junction Complex including street walk under. (Change for L)
Wilson
Atlantic L
Rockaway Parkway L- LUNCH STOP
Alabama
Crescent- Walk under for Chestnut Street incline and view of eased S curve.
Cypress Hills- Walk under to see old Cypress Hill Terminal
Woodhaven
104
121- END OF TOUR. As usual an extension will be planned, this one being more stop offs at stations to be decided by Peggy and/or the group. A feature of the extended tour will be a walk over the Williamsburg Bridge.
No reply needed but for further information contact:
Peggy-darlington@mindspring.com
It's nice to stress that NO FLASHY JEWELRY OR FANCY CLOTHING, should be worn, especially at Wilson, Alabama, Crescent St. etc.. Hopefully for all of us, the weather will be decent that day.
And to think I was going to wear my Mr. T-sized gold chains...dang! You can't dress up nice nowadays :)
Bling-bling. Moo. :)
I wanted to wear my teeny weeny itsy bitsy polka dot bikini. Is that too flashy?
Might be a bit too cold for that! Save that when we hit one of the two upcoming Southern Division BMT tours.
That ought to make the tour a sell out!
Has Crescent St really become that bad a neighborhood?
Peggy can't make her own posts all of a sudden?
"IT" never did.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peggy asked me to post this. That's all I know. Should I have said no?
Peggy had asked me to post it also. I didn't because it was already posted.
The trip sounds too good to be true. I think we are dealing with an imposter Peggy. Be on the lookout. You are too trusting.
Peggy asked David to post this when she knows of a date. I'm a witness, she told him to post the details at the end of the BQ Crosstown/Queens Blvd IND tour last month. Peggy knows what she is doing, there are no imposters here.
OK, I didn't know that there were witnesses.
---Brian
Yes there were witnesses and the Butler did it with the pitchfork.
Geeze now Peggy posts under three handles?
I'm so confused...
You ain't the only one, Lou...LOL! :)
Peggy has three handles?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
The MBTA Capital Plan for FY '03-'08 is now on-line.
Note: It is a 145-page .pdf document, 4 megabtes.
CNN story here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think all of us on this board could have qualified for this job .... and in my case, I have the video documentation to prove it :)
The article states:
The 47-year-old law graduate prepared for his new job by travelling on the underground for up to 10 hours a day for an entire week last year.
--Mark
A group of us are talking about a Field Trip on Monday February 17th.
It will probably be above ground, i.e. Brooklyn or the Bronx. Since most in the core group have already done these lines, we're open to suggestions from those of you out there that haven't. We could even work in, lets say, 63rd Street tunnel to Jackson Heights then transfer to flushing line. If it's a nice day the ride back is a great photo op.
Minimum:
- Most, if not all, trains have to be railfan window equiped.
- Starting point should be central to the system, i.e. Atlantic Ave., mid-town; Yankee Stadium.
- The Franklin Shuttle doesn't have to be included, but it could be.
- The trip is for fun, so we won't be getting off & on a lot, but it can include drive by stuff of interest, e.g. under ground yard on the 1/9.
- Lunch suggestions: Nathan's at CI' Tom's Resturant at 110th & Broadway, Stardust Dinner, etc. (get creative, think reasonable, fast in & out & F-U-N).
OK, so now the balls in your court, lets here from you !
How about this (weather permitting.):
Start at PATH 33rd st station, take uptown IND one stop to 42nd st.
-Walk passageway to 5th Ave, catch Flushung #7 to Main St.
-Exit station, then take Q44 to West Farms
-Go to East 180th st, pick up #5 train to Dyre,
-Back to East 180th st, see yard, then take #2 or #5 train to 149th st/GC. Exit station and walk to White Castle near Morris Ave, have lunch there.
-Go back to 149th St/GC, take #4 train to Atlantic Ave, see what we can see of abandoned trackage on Manhattan bound/West side platform by LIRR.
-View entire complex, then hop on Q train to Brighton Beach (we can do a photo stop at Beverley Road, the platforms are curved at the north end.)
-Take B68 to Stillwell, view construction progress there and then W back to Manhattan.
-if time permits, change at 36th st for R train, take R to 86th st.
-use S53 or S79 bus to Staten Island (first bus we take)
-if S53, go to Grasmere
-if S79, get off on Hylan Blvd near Old Town station (about 1 block on Dawson Place from Hylan Blvd)
-Take SIR to St. George, use boat to Whitehall and go home from there.
This is what I call a five borough tour
Too many sloooooowwwww buses
Sounds like a great idea, but keep in mind that on President's Day, everything is on a WEEKEND schedule, which kind of limits our options. There's less variety of service (no Brighton, Flushing or Pelham express; M runs shuttle and all 143s) and longer headways, which means you don't want to waste a lot of time waiting for trains on lines where you're not guaranteed a railfan window- such as the 3, A, F, L and W.
As far as railfan windows in the Bronx, chances of getting a Redbird may be nonexistent by then. I haven't even see one on the 4 or 5 during rush hours for the past couple weeks. The front window of the 142/As might be OK to some on the outdoor stretches.
Good remaining stretches where railfan windows are easy to come by are on the Flushing line, Queens Boulevard express, Broadway/Jamaica el, Sea Beach and POSSIBLY the whole A route- if the 38s cooperate. Good grief, is that ALL I can think of?!
But I'm sure one of us can think of something. The field trips are always fun no matter where we go.
Service should not be too bad that day. On President's day, all service operates on a Saturday schedule.
As the poster stated, Saturday is weekend so there are no express trains and headways are increased and there are service changes like no V train so trips via 63rd street tube are limited for people reaching 6th ave for example.
I rode a Redbird 4 at the wodniw nafliar Wednesday afternoon from 42nd to 161st. I wasn't actually going to 161st, but I wasn't about to pass up the opportunity.
And I rode a 5 the prior week from Wall to Dyre and back to 149-3.
One railfan window guarantee is on the C, if you don't mind a local.
I'm very pleased with the lively discussion so far !
NOTES:
- I wouldn't want to go to a spot because a Red Bird MIGHT come by. So, #3 or #7 would be safer bet (3 has 62s with a railfan window, 7 has Red Birds).
- C may have a railfan window, but the line is underground. I don't know how much fun 168th to Euclid would be. If it went across the Manhattan or Williamsburg then I would go for it, i.e. ride the Brooklyn els including in Manhattan, change at Canal,, then out Williamsburg.
- Also, with a group it possible to go places that you wouldn't want to go alone, e.g. walk between Junius & Livonia.
I think the J is a good run and we'd be guarranteed a view....also might want to doubleback to B'way Junction to switch to the Canarsie L. Take it to Livonia and then walk over to Junius and ride out to New Lots...that way the day's trips would include all elevated lines and perhaps new terriotory for most folks (or at least they haven't gone there in awhile.
Sounds like a good trip to me. Wish I could join you guys.
Simon
Swindon UK
Well, hopefully we'll have the weather on our side (since it'll be an outdoor trip).
BTW, Simon, I never got to thank you for the brew on your last visit to the US...next one's on me :)
It certainly is :)
See you in the fall (Autumn)
Simon
Swindon UK
They're just retracing our steps from last November :)
--Mark
BMT Eastern?? Don't we do that often enough?
How bout something in da Bronx?
How about SIR to an X1 MCI (20 min during some hours on weekends)?
BMT Eastern?? Don't we do that often enough?
How bout something in da Bronx?
Agreed... I even noticed the "F-word" in the inital post (although I haven't done that in a while) :)
Both would be fine with me.
- BMT trip = things have been happening a Chambers, and would include Willamsburg bridge; could even start a Atlantic on "M" to see the progress there; then Broadway Junction switch to "L" to see how much of the el has come down so far.
- SIRT = Still would love to do a daylight trip on the line & catch a MCI Crusier back to the City.
- Bronx = Haven't done Grand Concourse, so we could go underground for that piece.
Sounds like a great idea! Hopefully I'll be able to make it. Haven't been on a trip since MLK day of '01, so it would be nice to meet up with subtalkers again.
Here are my suggestions:
-F train through the 63rd Street Tunnel sounds good (we can get an R-32 for a railfan window). Starting in the Bronx area is fine with me, and I'm open to whatever routes that are popular suggestions.
-If it's a cold day, Nathan's at CI won't be that great, especially if the wind kicks in. So Tom's Restaurant or the Stardust Diner gets my vote.
-Service of trains should be fine. On the MLK day trip, we only had one long wait for an R142 at East 180th Street, otherwise our timing was good.
-Nick
Sounds good. I recommend the 7 and J lines, as you're more or less guaranteed a railfan window on there.
Hopefully I will able to make this one.
We'll probably start from Atlantic Ave, Penn Station, or some where easily gotten to from those two LIRR destinations.
1.) Joe Bruno backs Bridge Tolls
2.) Peter Vallone calls for NYC secession
This thought is totally off topic, but if NYC became its own state, shouldn't it get to keep the name "New York" and make upstate pick a new name, seeing as NYC is where the colony that would eventually be the state of New York began? (Even though it was teh city of New Amsterdam in the colony of New Netherlands at the time, I know.)
Mark
No, there is already a state called "New York" so the 51st state would have to have a different name. That's just how it goes. I think the new state should be called "The City."
Mailer and Breslin campaigned on that plank in 1969. Good luck on the tax rates to finance the new state's Medicare requirements.
From a transit standpoint, no more MTA, or no more MTA as it's currently constructed. It would have to become a bi-state agency like the Port Authority or go out of business, and allow the subways and buses to revert to control of the NYCTA, while the bridges would likely go into the same agency rather than recreating the TBTA. Other agencies like PASNY would also have to be reworked if the city and state were broken up, while the city would also have to create its own hierarchical penal system to replace the higher security jails than Rikers that criminals convicted in state court are sent to today (since the only remaining open space in the city to build facilities like that is on Staten Island, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that borough's response would be).
Can of worms, fellas. Can of worms...
Cool! Then the various subway lines could revert back to the old days where they were individual companies (Just kidding!)...:)
Not to mention that Congress would NEVER approve the creation of a state that would likely send two Democrats to the Senate and at least two Dems to the House. That was the motive against statehood for the District of Columbia.
Now, if NYC and and the counties east of the Hudson seceded, it might be a different story...
Can of worms? Yes, BUT the rural ripoff of the productive cities is so heinous as to call fpr desperate measures. Mailer and Breslin were right then, Vallone is right now. Upstate which is what the detritus should be rebamed while the City retains the REAL name would go bankrupt in a heartbeat OR have to adjust. The city as a stand alone could reinstitute the "commuter tax" without groveling. While the entire post WWII history seems to be one of abandoning urban cores for the green 'burbs, NYC, SF, and a few others have stood against this tide--you can buy a mansion if there are any in upstate for the buy in to a small coop apt in Manhattan.
What are you going to do for drinking water? The water which the City "thinks" it "owns" in what would become reservoirs in another state would become the object of bi-state compacts. California thought it could freely drink all the Colorado River water it wanted, but that little fantasy is now starting to crumble.
Hate Pataki all you want, but NYC people don't appreciate the value of the deal he made between the City and the water providing areas. Congress has been sympathetic to states that have said "he can't keep sending our water someplace else--we need it for our own growth."
Have you ever drunk Flatbush water? Of course not. I have. You don't want to know what it's like if the City has to start depending on its own ground water again for a significant part of its supply.
New York City thinks it's self-sufficient. But the big business that pays the big taxes may be an ephemeral commodity. The City has to get its water from elsewhere. It has to ship its garbage elsewhere. It has to put a lot of its prison population elsewhere. It has to vacation elsewhere. A lot of that "elsewhere" is the rest of New York
State--when New York State becomes out-of-state the City is going to have to adjust some of its perspectives.
"What are you going to do for drinking water?
... California thought it could freely drink all the Colorado River water it wanted, but that little fantasy is now starting to crumble."
Totally different situations. CA thought the Colo River would always have enough water so that they could take what they needed. They didn't have the legal right to the water under Federal law.
NY City has the right to much of the Catskill water (Phila gets some too in the sense that NYC isn't allowed to let the Delaware River run dry) in both NY State and Federal law. A new state (which is never going to happen) wouldn't change that.
NY City has the right to much of the Catskill water (Phila gets some too in the sense that NYC isn't allowed to let the Delaware River run dry) in both NY State and Federal law. A new state (which is never going to happen) wouldn't change that.
Don't count on that.
No problem.
If we had a Congress and state legislature that would approve a new state (i.e., not a snowball's chance in Hell), they'd also pass enabling legislation that straightened out all the issues such as water.
While they were at it (getting back to transit), they'd also create a new regional transportation agency to handle interstate rail and buses.
If we had a Congress and state legislature that would approve a new state (i.e., not a snowball's chance in Hell), they'd also pass enabling legislation that straightened out all the issues such as water.
IOW, any Congress that would approve such an arrangement would also do whatever was necessary to f*** any interests other than NYCS's.
But (1) congresses change and (2) disputes between states go to the Supreme Court (one of its few areas of original jurisdiction) not Congress.
Plus states are soverign. State A can't tell State B what to do with its water supply without a compact, which would have to be drawn up through the United States Supreme Court and then administered by s Special Master. He would be the arbiter of how much water would go here and how much water would go there.
In the closest approximation to what could happen, look at Washington, D.C. With no watershed to speak of, D.C. gets its water supply from the Anacostia River. When I moved down from New York to the district, I couldn't belive no only how bad the water tasted, but how bad it smelled. Certainly, if a seperate state was created out of New York City, the federal government would step in to arbitrate any water sharing agreement. But in drought years, if the city asked for more water to be released, the rest of the state would just say "read the compact -- we're only required to give you X amount of water this year, and that's all you're getting."
Wash DC's water comes mostly from the Potomac. The intakes are upstream of Great Falls and carried under MacArthur Blvd--Conduit Road until WWII. The purification plant and reservoir system is adjacent parts of the old B&O frt branch. The Emblem of the Army Corps of Engineers is based on the building on MacArthur at one edge of the plant. The fact of the water conduit under MacArthur resulted in strict weight limits for vehicles on the road.
A century and a quarter ago the Potomac water supply was so rancid and filthy that it caused the death of President Lincoln's son Willie. About a year later there was talk in New York City of seceding from the Union and becoming an independent state. The reason was disgusting. They were pro-South and vehemently anti-Union and anti-Lincoln and believed the rat bastard traitors in the Confederacy should be given independence.
The mayor, Fernando Wood, was about as despicable a man as existed at the time, and is whole Democrat Party in the city stunk with corruption and disloyalty. I hope if New York City really contemplates secession, which I think ridiculous, they would have a much better reason for doing so than those rotten scoundrels of yore were.
>>> A century and a quarter ago the Potomac water supply was so rancid and filthy that it caused the death of President Lincoln's son Willie. About a year later there was talk in New York City of seceding from the Union and becoming an independent state. The reason was disgusting. They were pro-South and vehemently anti-Union and anti-Lincoln and believed the rat bastard traitors in the Confederacy should be given independence. <<<
Let's see, a century and a quarter ago would be 1878. So in 1879 New York City was thinking of seceding from the United States to support the Confederacy? Those poor kids in Arcadia have to compete in American society with this kind of knowledge of history?? :-)
Tom
All right, it was over a quarter a century ago. You're splitting hairs. If you really want to know young Willie died on Feb. 20, 1862. It should have read over a quarter century ago or 1862 and 1863 for all you hair splitters. I assure you my knowledge of Civil War History is in the 99 percentile, but don't feel sorry for Arcadia students. I can show you the large posters my classes gave me when I retired so they weren't cheated in the least. Anytime you want to match me Civil War knowledge for Civil War knowledge have at it.
I stand corrected -- the Anocista is the name of one of the pumping stations as well as the river on the east side of town, but the water does come from the Potomac. However, it did both taste and smell bad compared to New York City water.
I do believe that NEW YORK CITY owns its resivours and aquaduects that are upstate, that it bought the land, and built the infrastructure.
Perhaps that has changed over the years. Perhaps not.
I am sure that the State of New York would be happy to enter into commercial agreements with The Great State of Greater New York relative to the provision of such services.
Elias
I do believe that NEW YORK CITY owns its resivours and aquaduects that are upstate, that it bought the land, and built the infrastructure.
First of all, NYC signed compacts and agreements (many of which it has ignored) in order to maintain their facilities in other jurisdictions.
Second, ownership of property does not confer sovereign right. Ask any homeowner whose tax bill increases on land he owns. NYC has had the state to mediate for it (as Pataki did recently) to keep the reservoir-containing jurisdictions at bay. Once Westchester and NYC are in different states, "old" NYS has no reason to advocate for the City's interests in this matter and every reason to oppose them.
Third, even if you can argue that NYC "owns" the water in the reservoirs, it does not own the watershed. Without NYS it loses its influence to keep those outside the City-owned land from using the land and water on that land in such a way as to improve their own economies but jeopardize NYC's supply.
(NYC people don't appreciate the value of the deal he made between the City and the water providing areas.)
We'll have to see what happens. My guess is NYC will end up paying a few billion, then end up filering the water anyway.
"My guess is NYC will end up paying a few billion, then end up filering the water anyway."
The total real estate value of the Catskill watershed is only $1 billion or so (and it's mostly not for sale).
The total cost of building sewage treatment facilities for the entire population of the Catskill watershed is well under $100 million. There are only a few tens of thousands of people living there.
If the existing state of New York is split in two, who's to say which piece (if either) gets to keep the name New York?
I have an idea: The state would keep the title 'New York', but the city would get 'The State of Greater New York' (a throw back to the days when NYC was 'The City of Greater New York'.
Ok, I'm cool with that.
---Brian
Virgina and West Virgina
or (hehehehe.... North Dakota and South Dakota)
I'd probably pick out some NYC name to name the new state after, I guess my choice might be New Stuyvesant.
Now then, would Nassau and Suffolk join us? What about Westchester?
Would Staten Island join New Jersey?
I think the minimum needs to be New York, Kings, Queens, Bronx, Nassau, Suffolk, and Westchester. Probably Richmond as well. Perhaps Putnam?
Elias
Why would you include any of the suburbs? I'd like to see how they do without money flowing their way from the city.
Why would you include any of the suburbs?
Because for Nassau and Sufolk not to be contigious with their 'state' if it were not our new city-state would be problematic, and could thereby scuttle the effort.
Further, their intersts are focused on the city. They are a bedroom community, but the focus of their livelhood is west not north. The same applies to Westchester. It basicly exists as an adjunct to the city, though it's choice to not join the city would not be problematic.
OTH: I like the idea of a REGIONAL DOT. I would eliminate all federal fuel taxes, and then in a multi-state region (yet a region that does not encompass all of any state (save maybe New Jersey)) collect all fuel and transportation taxes into a regional authority with greater flexibility to apply the funds to mass transportation soulutions rather than focusing on highways.
Elias
Not that this is ever going to happen, but contiguity isn't particularly critical. Seveal states include strange pieces that don't really fit in well.
There is a strip of Northern AZ that is virtually inaccessible (one winding road, snowy in the wintertime) from the rest of AZ and is culturally part of UT.
The north end of the Chesapeake Bridge and Tunnel is VA but wasn't connected to VA until the B&T was built. Still a major expense to drive.
The Upper Peninsula of MI has much more in common with WI than MI. Again, the bridge to MI is a relatively recent (1950?) phenomenon in the history of the state.
Your comment about the Chesapeake Bay Bridge & Tunnel reminded me a fuuny little thing that pops up every so often in Maryland's Eastern Shore. Until the Chesapeake Bay Bridge was opened in 1952, the Eastern Shore was more or less isolated from the rest of the state. The whole area actually includes part of Delaware, Maryland and Virginia, and is referred to as "DelMarVa". Infrequently, somebody on the east side will attempt to create the area as a new state, to be called Delmarva.
This will never happen for two reasons:
1. Other than the Atlantic resorts in Delware, Maryland and Virginia and the chicken industry, there's no major industrial presence.
2. The Maryland General Assembly won't ever let that happen.
Just to keep this "on topic", the Eastern Shore does have a railroad. Once in a while you actually get to see a train. Ocean City, MD has a transit system. It's run by the city, but they love that state subsidy.
If I drive up from D.C. to New York, often I'll take the Bay Bridge/U.S. 301 route instead of the BW Pkwy and the JFK Turnpike via Baltimore. It's amazing how much less crowded that route is (though not as empty as it was 10-20 years ago).
If I drive up from D.C. to New York, often I'll take the Bay Bridge/U.S. 301 route instead of the BW Pkwy and the JFK Turnpike via Baltimore. It's amazing how much less crowded that route is (though not as empty as it was 10-20 years ago).
Just don't try it heading northbound anytime after noon on a Friday from approx. April through October. Traffic jams leading to the Bay Bridge can be fearsome. I speak from experience.
Never on Friday afternoons. I'll drive into New York Friday afternoons via the Outerbridge, West Shore/Staten Island Expys and the Verrazano and the BQE to avoid the Manhattan tunnels, but if I left on Fridays down in Washington I made sure I was past Annapolis no later than 1 p.m. to avoid the jam (which is worse going out, because the eastbound span is two lanes, while the westbound Bay Bridge is three, and only very rarely have I seen reverse flow traffic on the right lane of the westbound span).
Just to keep this "on topic", the Eastern Shore does have a railroad. Once in a while you actually get to see a train.
Now, I'm not on firm ground here, because I'm plumbing the depths of my Rusty Rail History Memory, but I seem to recall that this route, considered commercially useful, was once considered the main southerly route of what is now the NE corridor, and the Washington line a branch.
no, there was a boat connection to Norfolk, but the "Washington Brach' happened elsewhere. The PRR predecessor got a charter from Balto to Pope's Creek--still in service for a PEPCO coal burning Electical plant. Then they asked permission for a branch from this line to DC. Remember at the time the B&O had a hammerlock (they thought) on rail routes in the state as a 'favorite son' corporation, but... outmaneuvered by the Pennsy once again.
The Upper Peninsula of MI has much more in common with WI than MI. Again, the bridge to MI is a relatively recent (1950?) phenomenon in the history of the state.
The Upper Peninsula of Michigan does propose secession from time to time. The new state would be called "Superior."
York in England is a city, the region is called Yorkshire.
Therefore if either the city or the state has to change its name, it makes the most sense for the CITY to keep the name of a city. The state can be New Yorkshire.
York in England is a city, the region is called Yorkshire.
Therefore if either the city or the state has to change its name, it makes the most sense for the CITY to keep the name of a city. The state can be New Yorkshire.
Well, strictly speaking a shire is roughly the equivalent of a county. The shire town is the county seat, so New York County is New Yorkshire and is its own shire town.
I thought you were going to point out that NYC is still "The City of Greater New York," which distinguishes it from pre-Consoliation New York City.
It's officially called the City of New York and I don't believe its official title was ever the City of Greater New York. I believe it may have been the Greater City of New York.
I want NYC to become the "INDEPENDENT, FREE CITY-STATE OF GOTHAM". Then we'd see Batman tooling down Fifth Avenue chasing the Joker. At least that makes more sense than a harebrained scheme to have an urban state where none is necessary. Holy referendums, Batman! ;-)
I can't immediately cite any source that the corporate title of the city was or is "The City of Greater New York" but I have come upon that usage probably hundreds of times in my researches (including a current web search, including on official city and state web sites).
All sources agree that the title refers to the city formed by Consolidation. In legal terms, its greater significance (no pun intended) is that the City of "Greater" New York is more an animal of the New York State Legislature than the previous corporate city was. When the State Legislature realized that it was empowering an 800 pound gorilla to become a 2000 pound gorilla it reserved some powers ordinarily incorporated in home rule to itself. This is the short answer to writers who I sometimes see in such publications as The Times who ask why the State has the power to do this or that or the other which they think the city should be able to do on its own say-so. Those writers should learn to do their own research, methinks.
Or how about the city going back to it's original name NEW AMSTERDAM? :)
This shows how the states of New York and Pennsylvania are different. In PA any move to split off Philadelphia into its own state (HA!) would probably be pushed by politicians outside the Philly metro area.
: )
Mark
I'm told by Buffalonians (that's what I *think* they told me they're called) that they wouldn't want to see the screen door hit us on the way out, either.
Though, technically, as a New Rochellian (?), I'm the one who'd be wavin' bye-bye to y'all. I think you should call yourselves New Netherlanders. I'd probably pull up stakes and move into the Bronx.
I agree it may be can of worms but lets threaten sucsession, Subways and busses Prob wouldnt have to raise fares.I am sure Paturkey will get nice chill thru his spine at the thought of losing his gravy train he really didnt like anyway.And for the first Govenor of the STATE of GREATER NEW YORK why not Rudy?
How about if we get back to more likely events (than statehood) like the existence of 76th St.?
As long as Republicans have 41 or more votes in the US Senate, there is not going to be a new state formed here.
As long as Republicans have 41 or more votes in the US Senate, there is not going to be a new state formed here.
That's the same reason DC statehood won't happen under the current Congress, whether the idea is good or bad.
Mark
That's the same reason DC statehood won't happen under the current Congress, whether the idea is good or bad.
Plus that little inconvenience of the Constitution.
How does the Constitution prevent DC statehood?
The constitution has the clause regarding the creation of a federal district, but this could just be the National Mall, the Capitol, the Supreme Court, the LOC and the White House, the rest of what is now DC could be the DC state. This would get around the need to have 38 states ratify an amendment, like the one that failed in 1984.
Then make the argument that would get Congress to create a new state out of a series of residential districts. What would be its tax base?
When I lived in D.C. this biggest single employer was government. The second biggest was the Woodward and Lothrop department store.
I doubt No. 1 has changed, and I don't know who's No. 2 right now. But if the employment pattern is even roughly similar, then Washington's biggest soure of tax income might be either clothing, houswares or the perfume counter. Not exactly a rock solid base to build your economy on.
Perfume counter? Maybe we could get Ron Lauder to move down there to run for Governor. I think it would be worth it for NYC to subsidize the new state of DC to make that happen.
for years Congress has structured its "grants" to DC as 'in lieu of real estate tax' as so much of the acreasge is Federal property-thus exempt. That said, remember that the Dixiecrats (both original so called Democrats and since Nixon Republicans) have refused to ever "grant" enough to properly fund adequate public services. (Yes DC has had its share of corrupt public officials, but compared to some of the older "democratic machine cities" they were pikers.)
Transit content--A notorious Southern Congressman held up the building of the Metro by several years trying to force the building of another river bridge not wanted by the locals.
>>> The constitution has the clause regarding the creation of a federal district, but this could just be the National Mall, the Capitol, the Supreme Court, the LOC and the White House, the rest of what is now DC could be the DC state. <<<
Why should the excess territory become a new state rather than be returned to the states from which it came when the district was set up?
Tom
Why should the excess territory become a new state rather than be returned to the states from which it came when the district was set up?
There's been sentiment in DC for MD to absorb it. MD would ne nuts to do so. Why would they want to acquire a city which would try to dominate the politics of the state?
If NYC secedes, then Nassau and Suffolk would have to join them, otherwise it would be one f****ed up situation(Take a guess on what that means).
Have to join them? Why?
Because Nassau and Suffolk do not connect to upstate except through NYC. Because of this, services to Nassau and Suffolk from NYS would be horrible.
Ask people in Fredonia AZ about the services they get from their state.
If they need a backup state trooper it's a 150 mile drive.
God, that sucks.
Ask people in Fredonia AZ about the services they get from their state.
If they need a backup state trooper it's a 150 mile drive.
I believe that there's a bi-state agreement under which the Utah State Police can provide service in emergencies.
I believe that there's a bi-state agreement under which the Utah State Police can provide service in emergencies.
You are correct... not that it makes much difference, since Utah has just about the same situation. But there really aren't many emergencies in northern Arizona that the citizens themselves can't handle, since almost every one of them, outside of the major cities, carries a gun... there are even some municipalities - the one where my older daughter and her husband reside among them - that have (admittedly unenforceable) laws on the books REQUIRING the adults to carry guns.
And we think California is nuts... so's Arizona, just in a different way...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But there really aren't many emergencies in northern
Arizona that the citizens themselves can't handle, since almost every one of them, outside of the major cities, carries a gun... there are even some municipalities - the one where my older daughter and her husband reside among them - that have (admittedly unenforceable) laws on the books REQUIRING the adults to carry guns.
Guns notwithstanding, I'll bet that the people in rural Arizona also have COURAGE, something that New Yorkers most definitely do not. You won't see many people in Arizona piddling their panties in fear that the towel heads are going to attack; New Yorkers, in contrast, are swarming to the stores to buy adult diapers.
What did you say? Who's "piddling"? You tryin' to start some s**t here? C'mere, boy. Yeah, that's right, here in the last car. Now, while we're going over the bridge.....me and a couple of fellows wanna talk to you about a few things.
You ain't leavin' `til we hit DeKalb....boy.
Brings up an entirely different thread of thought? Do you suppose we could defeat Saddam but getting his Republican Guard on the Q train over the bridge--just them and some homies? By the time they got to DeKalb they might not be in shape to go back to Baghdad,
After all, New Yorkers don't like Republicans anyway. ;-)
Yeah....and make the train a "super express", no stops until Prospect Park. Some nice delays would help too...
Because Nassau and Suffolk do not connect to upstate except through NYC.
I have news for you: Nassau and Suffolk do not connect to the UNITED STATES except through NYC!
That too.
So?
So, that's why when dad retired he moved to PENNSYLVANIA! : )
I like Pennsylvania. But my wife's from there and doesn't want to go back.
I suppose you could do that NYCroads.com guy's idea for an Orient Point to New London Connecticut bridge. Upstate can annex Connecticut, so as to gain direct access to the bridge approaches. Connecticut will take halvsies with Rhode Island, thus creating a state finally smaller than some counties in the midwest.
Hehe
It wasn't his idea, it was the idea of many planners including Robert Moses.
Since there is a sizeable stretch of the Long Island Sound where it's New York on both sides, a bridge can be built there. This would complete the I-287 beltway.
What services do Nassau and Suffolk receive from NYS that require them to be physically continguous?
Nothing really, but its something that would not be desired by residents of Nassau and Suffolk, not to mention splitting Long Island itself into two different states. Admit it, it just makes more sense to have all of Long Island part of the same state. At least that is how I feel about it.
Since Nassau and Suffolk have among the highest per capita incomes of any counties in the United States, but in a state split off from the upstate area would be at a major voting disadvantage to the contiguious five boroughs, any effort to add those to counties to the new state would be seen by property and home owners there as using them as the cash cow, especially if the city council -- which would now be the dominant part of the state legislature -- decided to try and carry on "business as usual" at least at the outset (They wouldn't do that, wuold, they? The council? The most responsible governing body in the history of mankind? Nawwww....)
Nassau borders Westchester in the Long Island Sound.
There was a bridge proposed from Rye to Oyster Bay.
Northwest Angle State Forest in Minnesota requires a person to get their either by floating across the Lake of the Woods, or go through Manitoba, and that's a different country!
Also until 1964, the only way to get to Staten Island from the rest of New York without a boat was to go through New Jersey.
Going to Alaska from the rest of the US requires going through Canada.
Going to Kaliningrad from the rest of Russia requires going through Latvia or Belarus and Lithuania or Poland (but not Latvia and Poland).
There's also (talk about obscure!) a part of Oman at the Strait of Hormuz that is divided from the rest of Oman by the United Arab Emirates.
Now that's very interesting.
BTW,there is a small section of Washington State that if traveling by car, you have to go thru Brit. Columbia.
And then finally, there's Page AZ, where in the summer it's Mountain Standard time, but if you drive or take a boat in ANY direction within a few minutes it's Mountain Daylight Time.
>>> otherwise it would be one f****ed up situation(Take a guess on what that means). <<<
From the number of asterisks used, it means you cannot spell very well. :-)
Tom
A state of New York City would be an interesting experiment--though I think that once the die is cast there would be no turning back.
To put this on topic in a different way--I recall when all the nation's railroads complained that the reason they were in such lousy shape was because they were forced by the ICC to maintain money-losing passenger service. A handful of observers at the time (including moi) thought that it would be interesting to see what would happen if the railroads were really free from passenger service, and would have to face their problems straight on without the crutch of blaming outsiders (the ICC) for their problems.
Then Amtrak came along and the railroads and their complaints were left naked. It was a long hard shakeup (remember the PC bankruptcy) but railroads are in better shape now than they were pre-Amtrak. Not because they didn't have to deal with passengers, but because they had to be face their own structural problems.
NYC seems to me to be in much the same situation. When NYC politicians can no longer tell the groundlings that everything would be fine except for the state, when NYC and NYC alone will have to decide whether its resources go to the subway fare, or Medicare, or pork-barrel for local interests, then the results should be quite interesting.
Would NYCS (New York City State) do like the railroads, and take the helm of its own ship? Or would it become DC, writ large?
But isn't DC "writ" as it is because it is run by Congress, with its long-term plans always at the mercy of the next national election? NYCS would have a culture and bureaucracy in place, for what it's worth, answerable to no one but the usual department-by-department relationships.
I mean "DC writ large" in the sense that it would suffer or benefit from the way it has done political business for a century. Take away the factor of NYS as a foil and what will happen. It could be a wonderful result, but I fear NYC politicians with that kind of wisdom are not in the current political infrastructure.
New York City cannot become a state unless NY State agrees.
Section 3. (1) of the Constitution states that "New states may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new state shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as Congress."
What that section mean is NYC can only become a state if the New York State legislature approves of the sucession. Think that's gonna happen? Not at the present time, nor in the next century.
[What that section mean is NYC can only become a state if the New York State legislature approves of the sucession. Think that's gonna happen?]
NO!! No matter what the upstate crown pretends to believe, the City is - and has always been - a CASH COW for both the State and the nation. Albany will NEVER give us up without a huge fight.
Exactly.
And the Nation has been a cash cow for NYC. Do you think that those natitonal and international corporations, and those securitries that are traded within the physical confines of NYC, deal in wealth that is generated in NYC?
Study some of your history of populist movements and get a clue as to some of the reasons (just and unjust) that NYC is hated in much of the nation.
true enough. However, also worth reading is Joel Garreau's Nine Nations of North America, which points up the lack of congruence between current political boundaries and "actual" political consensus areas. Another posters' comment about Philly versus PA comes to mind. This entire issue brings up again how critical the fight over how to cook census numbers has become. Between Repib;ican refusal to allow 'accurate' counts in the urban cores, and the two Senators for an unpopulated ranch (Wyo, R.I. et al) provision in the US Constitution, the Supreme Court's "one man one vore" is a joke. In turn, if the more pumitive clauses of the Reconstruction era amendmenrs had or were currently applied in areas of low minority voting, some of the South would lose even more Congress members AND Electoral College votes. No way this will happen with the current crooks.
Hey Dave did you feel the same way about the South 30-35 years ago when it voted regularly for Democrats, or are you a johnny-come-lately to that line of thinking now that the South votes mainly for Republicans? I guess it depends who ax is getting gored. BTW, those Reconstruction amendments to aid the Freedmen were passed by the Republicans while your friends on the other side did all they could to throw a monkey wrench into the works.
Everyone here seems to think that the state sucks money from the city, so I asked my friends up state (not far from Mr. Selkirk) ;) if this was so.
They said NO: The City even before 9/11 was an EXPENSE to the state, except she did admit that the big cities did not get their fair share of educational funds.
Se said the people upstate would not be uspset to see the city and the island leave the state.
So, i'd say GO FOR IT!
Elias
Not a chance.
Upstate would have a very good chance of electing moderately conservative Democratic senators. Places like Albany and Buffalo aren't totally Republican. Neither are Westchester, Rockland, Nassau, and Suffolk.
NYC would elect 2 flaming liberal Democrats.
Any US Senate with 41 Republicans (enough to sustain a filibuster) would block statehood for NYC. They don't want to see an average of 1.5 Democratic senators out of 2 replaced by 3 out of 4.
The statehood idea is ridiculous. The federal government is not going to allow people now represented by two Senators to have four. Plus, without the state transfererring Downstate funds to Upstate, someone else would have to subsidize a state that would be as poor as Maine. Or rather, EVERYONE would have to subsidize it, not just us.
Maybe the feds would let the area south of I-84 join New Jersey. But Selkirk has already said that he'd send Pataki and Silver back where they came from. Unless we can stick upstate with those two bozos, the deal is off.
Silver is from the Lower East Side and thus would end up with this new version of New Jersey.
Do you hate New Jersey so much?
Pataki and Silver can stay with the new city-state, and we'll GLADLY throw in Bruno for ya if you let US have Hillary. :)
I would have to concur. But FIRST, let's define what "upstate" really is, because folks in the city consider Westchester and Rockland to be "upstate" ... "Upstate" are those areas NORTH of Putnam and Orange counties - Putnam, Orange and everything SOUTH are the "New York Metropolitan area" or SUBURBS. One could even go so far as to include Ulster and Dutchess now as part of the sprawled "Metropolitan area" or in OTHER words, if you have commuter rail service, then you're "downstate" ... definitely NOT "upstate."
The NYS Comptroller's office has voluminous documentation of "follow the money" and the REALITY is that the BIG money-sucker is "suit-covered anusland" ... Nassau county consumes by far the greatest portion of wealth in proportion to taxes raised to cover those expenses, followed by Westchester, then Suffolk, then Rockland. It is THESE places where the biggest suckout of money occurs since the residents of the suburbs demand urban levels of services but don't want to pay taxes for them. Thus the city and "upstate" have to pay out far more than they receive in order to maintain the suburban lifestyles in those locations.
If New York City wants to seceed, PLEASE take your suburbs too, those of us living up here will FINALLY be able to fix our roads, maybe even have nice things like trash pickup, maybe some parks and nice things. But Elias is right, the HUGE moneyhole is the suburbs ... not "upstate" OR the city ...
One could even go so far as to include Ulster and Dutchess now as part of the sprawled "Metropolitan area" or in OTHER words, if you have commuter rail service, then you're "downstate" ... definitely NOT "upstate."
Ulster doesn't have any commuter rail service.
The NYS Comptroller's office has voluminous documentation of "follow the money" and the REALITY is that the BIG money-sucker is "suit-covered anusland"
Hey, wait a minute ...
... Nassau county consumes by far the greatest portion of wealth in proportion to taxes raised to cover those expenses, followed by Westchester, then Suffolk, then Rockland. It is THESE places where the biggest suckout of money occurs since the residents of the suburbs demand urban levels of services but don't want to pay taxes for them. Thus the city and "upstate" have to pay out far more than they receive in order to maintain the suburban lifestyles in those locations.
I'm really skeptical. Medicaid is the monster that's been eating New York alive. While sububan residents use some, mainly for nursing homes, city residents are the major Medicaid consumers.
The Rochester Chamber of Commerce commissioned a study of inter-regional state flows back in the early 1990s, when NYC had one million people on welfare and was deep in recession. You could probably find in on the internet -- I may have a copy on my hard drive somewhere. Here is what they found:
1) The affluent Downstate suburbs paid in far more to the state then they got out. No surprise there -- high incomes mean high taxes. They also got less in school aid that other places, and no special unrestricted aid.
2) Even when flat on its back and begging, the city paid significantly more into the state than it got out of it. The GRCC claimed to be surprised by this.The GRCC study assigned the state taxes paid by commuters to the city to the places where they lived, not the city where they worked. The state taxes paid by commuters from Connecticut and New Jersey were taken out of the analysis. And, the GRCC assumed that all the money paid to NYC's poor is my benefit, as if the poor are solely the responsibility of those stupid enough to live in the same local jurisdiction. These are not favorable assumptions.
3) Upstate was a massive net recipient of state spending. Poor rural counties are entirely dependent on it. Only Monroe County -- ie. Greater Rocehster -- paid in more than it got out. No wonder they commissioned the study.
Since 1990-92, the city's welfare rolls have shrunk -- with the state pocking more of the savings than the city through their control of what is now a federal block grant program. Medicaid has soared everywhere, but the city's share of it has shrunk somewhat as suburban and upstate populations age (remember the local share of spending on the elderly is 10 percent, vs. 25 to 50 percent for other categories).
Much of the expansion of school aid in the past decade has been STAR -- NYC gets 25 percent of STAR, with 37 percent of the public school students and 37 percent of state income tax payments. MTA subsidies have also turned against the city, with the subway covering much more of its fare (not a bad thing in my view but I wish we reaped more of the benefits).
New York City's share of the state's private earnings, and probably its taxes, also soared to the highest levels since at least 1969 -- Bureau of Economic Analysis data stops there; local data also stops at 2000 for now. So if one looked at 1997 to 2000, my guess is the City was being drained big time.
Since 2000 the city's income, and therefore its state tax payments, have dropped. But my guess is the city is still a big time net contributor.
New York City was made to pay in more than in got out in the early 1990s because, with one million people on welfare, it was said we didn't deserve it. After the city got its own house in order and boomed in the late 1990s, it was made to pay in even more relative to what it got out because it was said we didn't need it. Now that the city has suffered 96 percent of the state's job losses in the past year, and has an unemployment rate nearly double that of the rest of the state, we are told not to expect help because the rest of the stae doesn't have it. Get the pattern?
But it's still a good deal for Sheldon Silver and his ilk, as long as Medicaid reimbursments and other non-profit funding stays sky high, and rent regulations are renewed. That keeps the people who matter employed and living in swanky neighborhoods in Manhattan, where those of us not in on the deal (and not working on Wall Street) could never aspire to afford to live.
Ulster doesn't have any commuter rail service.
One would be hard pressed to define "commuter rail service" as: a dozen decrepid trains a day, in service for longer than most of the passengers are alive; most of them during the rush hour, at 40 minute intervals; running at 59mph maximum; stopping nowhere near Orange County's major population centers; and where they do stop it's all low platforms, so it takes forever for everyone to get on or of the train.
A handful of trains a day, making a grand total of three stops at the southern tip of Rockland county in peak hour direction only (no midday, night, or weekend service) does not make much of a "commuter rail" service either.
Businesses in Rockland and Orange counties pay the same MTA tax surcharge that businesses in Westchester, NYC, and Long Island. A NYC bodega pays a few hundred bucks a year to the MTA, and receives, in turn, some customers who stop by after getting off the subway, or the bus, before going home. A bodega in Cornwall, NY (for example) pays the same few hundred bucks, and gets screwed.
Upstate won't be sorry to see NYC go, as long as they take the MTA with it.
Maybe if metro north buys out norfolk southern, orange and rockland will get some descent commuter train service. Until that happens upstate will see NYC as a money pit.
This is why - as bad as it is - the port jervis and spring valley trains will never be eliminated. If that happens, MTA tax can no longer be collected in Rockland and Orange, since - by definition - the MTA tax can only be levied on NY counties that receive some form of MTA service.
Well, Rockland may still be nailed for the MTA tax; I think there are some MTA-chartered buses that go to Rockland. Not sure.
Rockland and Orange Co. train service will improve dramatically at the end of this year with the Secaucus Transfer. You'll see lots of people switching from buses to trains to commute to NYC.
Secaucus will not open for a looooong time. All the trains to penn station are full because people who were going to wtc via path now remain on the train until penn station.
njtransit is on record saying that they'll finish building the secaucus station, but it will remain closed until path to wtc is restored.
Even after Secaucus opens, the increase in service to orange & rockland won't be dramatic. Rush hour train frequency is not too bad. There's some room for improvement but the major problem up here is virtually no trains outside of the rush hour. Most of the port jervis line is one track, so ol' diesels can be running in one direction only, at a time; there are only a few spots where trains can meet and pass each other. Hoboken to spring valley is single track all the way; trains there are restricted to rush hour direction only; no weekend and nolidays.
Can't see how the Secaucus station will make the second track magically appear either; or upgrade the tracks so the trains can go faster than 59mph. For a couple of miles, the port jervis line parallels the NY Thruway. The speed limit on the thruway is 65mph. Every time I look out the window, the cars go faster than the train.
(The major problem up here is virtually no trains outside of the rush hour. Most of the port jervis line is one track, so ol' diesels can be running in one direction only, at a time; there are only a few spots where trains can meet and pass each other. Hoboken to spring valley is single track all the way; trains there are restricted to rush hour
direction only; no weekend and holidays.)
You've got a point there. As I mentioned previously, before we had a car we were invited to a float trip on the Delaware out of Port Jervis on an early summer Saturday. We were shocked to find we couldn't take the train to meet our friends. The Port Jervis line also stops at Harriman, where it could be used to bring city residents up for a day of hiking in the state park. Orange residents aren't the only ones hurt by the lack of weekend service.
(Can't see how the Secaucus station will make the second track magically appear either; or upgrade the tracks so the trains can
go faster than 59mph. For a couple of miles, the port jervis line parallels the NY Thruway. The speed limit on the thruway is
65mph. Every time I look out the window, the cars go faster than the train. )
As do the buses, which may be one reason for the lack of weekend train service. Buses can go right to the Port Authority with no changes. On weekends, traffic is less of an issue.
If you planned ahead you COULD'VE gotten there by train. There is an early Saturday/Sunday morning trip out of Hoboken that heads out to Port Jervis, and a Saturday/Sunday evening return trip. The trick is knowing the schedule, and planning around it.
I usually ride the Saturday/Sunday return trip. During the summer we usually pick up half a dozen hikers -- with large backpacks, and the whole deal -- at the Tuxedo stop (which, I understand, is near the Appalachian trail so there's usually quite a bit of hiking activity up there during the summer).
(If you planned ahead you COULD'VE gotten there by train. There is an early Saturday/Sunday morning trip out of Hoboken that heads out to Port Jervis, and a Saturday/Sunday evening return trip. The trick is knowing the schedule, and planning around it.)
Then things are better than in the mid-1980s. Believe me there was no such train, or I would have used it. As a result of that omission, the Port Jervis line is one I have never ridden. We have a car now, but perhaps we'll get rid of it when the kids are gone, and I'll have occassion to ride again.
Yeah, I knew about this a couple of days ago, but with all the "Selkirk can't play fair with our favorite Senator" I figured I'd just keep it quiet and say nothing. There's MORE too, including "sales tax on RENT" and the sale of the Tappan Zee bridge and others to private companies (perhaps CSX rail) too ...
But I wouldn't want to get "political" by providing a heads up after folks have pretty much told me to shut up and go away on the topic.
I'm selfish...so if you post for no one else, post for me. Send me an e-mail or something and keep me updated because I'm working on a transit plan. Your political and transit tidbits are critical for me to decide how and when to introduce the plan.
Bruno's done with his NYC transit plans for now - he's now working out which armories, bridges, tunnels and highways he can sell. Amazingly, word is he's going to RENEW the "rent stabilization" program for city residents. So for now, just watch out for "SOLD" signs when you go over a bridge. :)
If he's doing that, then it's a bi-partisan plot, since City Council Speaker Gifford Miller made the same proposal back on Jan. 24 (Or Bruno's just decided to steal the Democrats' dumbest ideas...)
Heh. He IS serious about selling the Tappan Zee, it's about to collapse. The question then becomes is anyone *DUMB* enough to buy it? :)
Other NYS Bridge Authority bridges would likely be part of the package. Even the THRUWAY is in consideration for sale. But yeah, the rocks are levitating.
heres why....
with out the suburbs, nyc has 8 million people, not enough for a state senate majority vote
with nyc, long island, westchester,rockland and orange, you have over 13 million people, enough to pass state legistlature
though the congress will never admit it to the union, we can become an independent country, answering to noone at all
>>> though the congress will never admit it to the union, we can become an independent country, answering to noone at all <<<
Uh, you might want to check the history books regarding the last time a group of states tried that. Although it is true the new independent country of Greater New York City and Long Island could quickly ask the U.N. to protect its independence, don't count on a whole lot of assistance.
Tom
Why should the UN treat NYC different than it does any other terrorist organization? 8>)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I attended the Brooklyn Public Hearing about the MTA Fare Hikes and possible subway token booth changes.
Interesting that MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow did not attend and that he walked out in the middle of the hearings Wednesday night in Manhattan.
Thank You
Good! Maybe Mr. Co--ikow will attend the Bronx and Kew Gardens hearings in 2 weeks, I will be there at least one of them. Maybe he will get an earful for the papers I will be show to him and to the alien board members about how MTA intentionally misinforms the public, in constant violation of Federal ADA regulations, and is in contempt of violating a court order not to close a single token booth.
Stay tuned, I won't make a dent in their vegatated brains, but I intend to raise eyebrows. I will let you know about which one, most likely the Bronx hearing, it's easier for me to get back to Brooklyn than the Kew Gardens hearing. OTOH the Kew Gardens hearing starts later (6 PM, and I can be there earlier than the Bronx hearing.) Hmmmmm, decisions, decisions.
It is all just a show, they have to have them because the law says you have to have public hearings. Come the vote, a rate hike will be approved even by the MTA members present at the public hearings.
Exactly, bums sitting down, not thinking that the podium exists. They just scratching their marbles and putting earplugs in. The MTA had a court order not to close any booths, but they illegally closed Hanson Place at Atlantic Ave (where you had problems with your Metrocard at the HEET.) and at the P/T booth at Tremont Ave.
That court order blocking the MTA's attempt to modernize is one of the reasons that we are facing a large fare hike. If not for that order, most of the unneeded token booths would have already been closed and the MTA deficit would be hundreds of millions of dollars less.
The straphanger idiots and thier liberal judges who most likely have not seen the inside of a subway station in 20 years are holding the riding public hostage for thier own bennifit.
When was the last time you heard the straphangers campaign prepose anything to better transit that was remotely based in reality. If you ever take a look at thier message board, 3/4 of the posts are from thier internal paid staff memebers. Plus post they don't like sometimes magically disapear. Pure propaganda
That's nonsense. If the MTA closed all the booths on their list, it would save about $25 million a year. Their list last year, withdrawn after a lawsuit, was much smaller and included part-time booths only. I'd be surprised if it would save $10 million. That's a drop in the bucket, not hundreds of millions of dollars.
The law requires public hearings over booth closings. If the MTA really wanted to close the booths in 2001, they could have had the hearings and done tried to do it, the ADA not withstanding. Instead, they withdrew the proposal.
"If the MTA really wanted to close the booths in 2001, they could have had the hearings and done tried to do it, the ADA not withstanding. Instead, they withdrew the proposal."
Good point. There was probably something to do with the 2002 elections going on there. (In deference to those who get annoyed, I will make no references to large flightless birds).
In addition, the MTA had a surplus at the time. The local politico's probably put a stop to it. As for ADA issues. The majority of booth closings out of the first 177 are closed most of the day. It does not effect any of the station areas that are currently ADA complient. ADA states that any new or area renovated more then X percent need to be ADA complient.
Instead of waisting money on frivilous lawsuits, if the straphangers campaign and the ACLU really wanted to help the disabled they should try to work out a settlement so that monies saved from the booth closings gets earmarked to accelerating the process of bringing stations in complience with ADA. The same can be said about the bogus security issue. Make the MTA impliment the security enhancements that provide real secuity no the false sense of security the overpaid tooken booth clerks provide
The MTA's plan was to illiminate all part time booths. This plan date back to the decision to adobt metrocard as the platform for fare control automation. It is the reason the union was so against metrocard back in the early 90's. The union waged a campaign against metrocard . They raised concerns that people may loose metrocard, metrocard was not safe, it will deduct too much money, it will be easier to conterfeit, it takes to long to swipe, people will get robbed when they went to thier wallet to take out thier metrocard etc.
The 35 original booths closing was to be the first stage. By now all 177 fare controls would have been upgraded and those booths would have been closed. If not for the slow developments and deployment of the MVM's, booths would have been closed sooner. To be frank, many of the stations on the list of 177 already operate in automated mode part of the day or are closed at night. Of the 35 original booths most are only manned a few hours a day currently. One example is Sheapshead bay on the Q (voories ave entrance). The booths is open during the morning rush only. All other times access is via heets. The fare control currently closes at midnight. People don't mind the automated entrance. In fact there are dozens of unmanned exits in the NYCT Subway system that date back 50 years.
The MTA's long term plan is to modernize fare sales, increase station security through station wide CCTV (both human monitored and computer monitored) and eventully over time remove all money handling from the station agents. Essentially close all booths and redeploy s/a as station mangement/customer service reps in the model of the DC metro system. Washington DC's is a city that has far more crime then NYC,
Well over $100 million would have already been saved and another $20 million even if the plan passes and the MTA begins to upgrade addtioal fare controls for automated operation. Riders will be encountering fewer locked entrances at night adding to their ability to avoid situations that make them uncomfortable. Currently Vagrants jump turnstyles at will in front of S/A. Token booths and s/a provide little to no security in the fare control areas and provide ZERO security on stairways and platforms. Concidering that they make more then many police officers. The MTA's plan to reduce the number of tooken booths and increase CCTV survaliance of the entire station complex and install emergency call boxes (already on the original 35 list) provide far more securtity then a person in a sound proof booth. Many S/A turn their head when they see turnstyle jumpers. They choose not to get involved.
Exactly. In my opinion, the issue here is money -- security (often confused with "safety") is a red herring thrown in by the union to garner support for its position. Fewer booths equals fewer Station Agents equals less dues money for TWU. Under NYCT's plan, some stations would actually be EASIER to get into and out of, because some control areas that are now closed when unstaffed would be open all the time and equipped with HEETs/HXTs.
How much "security/safety" can be provided by a Station Agent who:
1. Can't see the entire station
2. Might be too busy (or not busy enough -- asleep!) to pay attention to the goings-on around him/her
3. Has a booth intercom system that may not work well enough to be of any use in hearing what's happening or responding to it
4. Is tethered to the booth, not being allowed to leave it without permission (yes, I know they sometimes do)
5. Has to call Station Command or activate the Emergency Booth Communications System -- NOT call 911 -- in the event of an emergency?
Personally, I'd rather have roaming personnel, be they Station Agents or, preferably, Transit Property Protection Agents with customer service training, in the stations. I think they'd be of more use to customers in general and of greater help in the event of an emergency.
David
Your posting is extremely well reasoned.
Allow me to provide the view of a typical member of the public (my wife) who has no great union sympathies.
1. Everything I see suggests the MTA is badly managed. Escalators and elevators that don't work (and aren't even being fixed as far as anyone can see), false or no announcements in case of delays, station renovations that take forever, and when they're done we get slippery floor tiles, etc.
2. Why should I believe that the MTA will maintain CCTV any better than it maintains escalators? And besides, I can see them closing the booths now and only getting the CCTV installed in 4 years.
3. What's more, the MTA can't even properly maintain the entrances they've already closed off. Half the time I try to use a HEET-only entrance, there's a crowd of people all getting the "Please swipe again" message. I have to go back up the stairs and find another entrance.
4. How long till the roaming station agents are eliminated as a cost move?
There are rebuttals to each of these points. But my wife, as an educated member of the general public, doesn't always get to hear them, and has good reason to disbelieve them when she does hear them.
Good points all. However:
1. Escalators and elevators that are out of service aren't always broken. Many times they've simply been shut off by vandals and simply have to be restarted -- for that to happen, someone from NYCT has to know they're off so a supervisor can come by and inspect the machine. As to the rest, I'm not sure what announcements were false or what made them false; "no" announcement could simply be a faulty PA system (they're being replaced with ones that, to my ears at least, are MUCH better); sometimes a contractor goes bankrupt while it's rehabilitating a station (or replacing an escalator or elevator for that matter) and the project stops while a new contractor is chosen by the bonding company; and the only station with truly slippery floor tiling I know of is Herald Square, and NYCT no longer uses that kind of tile for that reason.
2. I don't think NYCT mentioned using CCTV; that idea was promulgated here on SubTalk (not that it's a bad one necessarily).
3. Roaming Station Agents would be able to get to HEET card slots more often than stationary ones can now.
4. That's a wild card, but I doubt they'd all be eliminated no matter how bad things were to get.
David
Again, all your points are well reasoned. My point is that the general public doesn't hear you (or the MTA) make those points.
As for false announcements, how about "there's another train right behind this one". Often true, but when an out and out lie it can convince people to wait around instead of looking for an alternate route.
Then there's "change for the #7" when the #7 isn't running that weekend.
Union Square had very slippery floor tiles. As they have gotten scratched, they've gotten less slippery. I'm glad they're being discontinued.
If memory serves, announcements such as "there's another train right behind this one" are prohibited by the Blue Book (where DID I put my copy???) because they can't be proven by the person making them -- yet they are still made. That's a culture change that management needs to be more forceful about making.
As to the second example, "AIM" is right -- it's a problem, especially when making announcements referring to service in another division. Train crews need to look at the General Orders in the crew rooms (which is a requirement of their jobs, anyway), and their supervisors need to make sure they know about General Orders in other divisions that can affect the announcements they make.
Union Square was rebuilt several years after Herald Square. The tiles are most likely of a different composition and should not have been anywhere near as slippery. As "AIM" indicated, though, they might be designed to become less slippery as they age (whether that's a good thing or not, I'm not qualified to say).
David
The Blue Book also assumes we get accurate and timely information from Control. HA. And the buffs are the worst using the delay to ask a million detailed questions and of course the normal passengers getting pissed that you did not share that information with them. Or making the official announcement you are given that the dealy will last 5 mins and it is a broken rail and the track gang is not even there yet. BTW you are not supposed to get a skip unless a train is right behind so sometimes people give that information when the passengers are treating that train like the last helocopter out of Saigon. They may honestly believe the train is 2 min behind and of course it does seem longer to the passengers than it really is.
We only get information about our division and truthfully 15 is not enough time to sign in get a battery, get critiqued for whatever the supt wants that day, get checked for fitness for duty and get on a train 2 mins before leaving. The TD often also wants to look you over, too. Crews are often signing out there is sometimes payroll keeping the ATD from leeting you sgn in, people are checking their assignments or if there is a GO on your line getting and writing down the supplement because the TA is too cheap to make copies and learning that one GO eats up time too.
The service diversion sheet does not reflect emergency work and sometimes details are missing or misleading. So if a GO in the A is put in or cancelled it never makes the news in the other division. We also only get GO's for our own division and GO's often superceed, modify, correct or cancell other GO's or reference them so you have to dig deep sometimes.
especially when making announcements referring to service in another division. Train crews need to look at the General Orders in the crew rooms (which is a requirement of their jobs, anyway), and their supervisors need to make sure they know about General Orders in other divisions that can affect the announcements they make.
There's a problem here. GOs are only accessable to the division they're in. I face this problem every weekend working in the A Div but living far far away in Queens. I wanna know what GOs running on the A line this weekend? I'm SOL because the only GOs sent to any A division dispatcher or tower are those in the B. I have to go ON MY OWN TIME to find out what's going on the A line.
I think for most purposes the service diversion sheets they give us are fine. Not perfectly up to date, but one person cannot keep track of everything. Its hard enough sometimes keeping track of the GO on your line as at times there are 2 or 3 going.
Someone recently pointed out to me that the Media Signs on the 143 would be excellent for this purpose. Unfortunately the only plans the TA have for them are to sell rotating advertisement space.
"GOs are only accessable to the division they're in"
That's definitely a management problem. If the L isn't running, the C/R on the 4/5/6 should know about it (etc., etc.).
Its a practicality problem too. Go to a terminal, pull out the stack of G.O.'s that are currently running. Come back to me tell you how long it takes you. Now think about having to know 2 divisions worth. It may seem like not much is going on, but some GOs work on top of others so customers only get a simplified view. It really is a chore. Then as previously mentioned you get emergency GOs (like this past weekend's single track GO at Mott Ave).
Simply its just hard to keep track of EVERY GO. But it would be good if the TA came up with a supplementary way to get the info out other than the signs in the map display cases that probably no one looks at.
Especially considering the near-worthlessness of the 'simplified' summaries. For an example find the thread"silly GO on the N/W" about a GO running last weekend on the N. There was no N service southbound anywhere - but, the summary had "No Diversions" listed for the N. Damned thing took me by surprise and I work there.
[Then there's "change for the #7" when the #7 isn't running that weekend.]
How about WEEKEND conductors who announce the B and V on 6th Avenue, the #5 in Brooklyn, and the N (but not the W) along Broadway? If they're not even willing to do their jobs - i.e. know and correctly announce the normal service pattern - then they should find alternate employment.
It's about time someone else besides me, see what I've been talking about. Conductors do a fine job, except for those people who need to read a subway map.
How about the following announcements I've observed for the past 10 years:
#4 at Fulton on a Sunday: Transfer to the A,C,J,M,Z,#2, AND #3
#4 at 161st st/Yankee Stadium at 10 PM: Transfer to the B and D
#7 at Hunters Point Ave on weekends: Connection to LIRR
F train at 4th Ave: Transfer to M, N and R
Q train at Canal St. 7 PM weeknights: Transfer to N,R,J,M,Z AND 6 trains
(Last Z train leaves Broad St. at 5:45 PM)
Q train, weekends at Atlantic Ave: Transfer to W,N,R,2,3,4, AND 5 trains.
'Nuff said
Any connecting train at Times Square on weekends OR 12 Noon weekdays:
Transfer to 1/9, 2,3,A,C,E,N,Q,R,W, AND Shuttle to Grand Central
How about some good announcements?
I had two C/R's yesterday, one on the E and one on the W, who really knew their stuff. Many would argue that they said too much.
The E was sent up 6th Avenue due to a GO. The C/R made very detailed announcements at each transfer point, including lists of where some of the other lines went. At 42nd he even announced that passengers for 74th should stay on the E, since the 7 wouldn't be stopping there.
The W C/R made up subtitles for a few stations, like 36th Street-Bush Terminal and 23rd Street-Flatiron Building. (He also claimed there was a NYS or federal law, with fines of $100-$1000, requiring that bikes be in the last car only. Is that true? What about bikers trying to get to South Ferry or 145th?)
The E train conductor was very good, but you are reffering to the W train C/R as one of my favorites. He gets good picks from Stillwell and you probably heard him on his PM tours either Saturday or Sunday. We do talk a lot of things and he used to be on my Q local the last pick. I like it when he mentioned "Parkside Ave bus" or "Kingston-Throop bus" if he didn't knew the bus number. Even he mentions for the PA bus terminal "...for buses to NJ and across the continental United States". And yes, he claims there is a Federal Law banning all bicycles in the subway "except in the last car of the train, and ONLY if the car is not crowded. Fines range from $100-500 for violation of these rules."
Take a ride on the W out to Brooklyn, he will give you the bus transfer points along the West End Line. He is a lot of fun to listen to. I hope he come back to my Q line, it should be no problem with his seniority but he does the picking, not me. He may stay on the W or move somewhere else.
I like it when he mentioned "Parkside Ave bus" or "Kingston-Throop bus" if he didn't knew the bus number.
There is no Parkside Avenue bus. The B12 runs eastbound only two blocks on Parkside from Ocean to Bedford. There is no other bus anywhere on Parkside.
So this guy is misleading people by making these announcements. Also try to take a bus southbound along Kingston-Throop.
Didnt the B33 bus use to run on Parkside Avenue from Ocean to CI Aves? Its been well over a decade since that bus route was discontinued.
Da Beastmaster
I know the B12 bus to City Line, but it was the conductor who identified the bus that starts on Parkside Ave, the Stop 1 grocery store near Mcdonalds. Many people will identify the B12 as the Parkside Ave bus even though it runs along, Beford,Clarkson-Albany,East-New York, Sutter, East-New York,under Atlantic Ave tunnel,Fulton,Pennsylvania,Liberty Ave, etc.
As for the B43, the bus you are getting is at Prospect Park andd runs northbound along Kingston-Throop Aves. Again the C/R is correct at making that announcement.
The B12 does not run on Sutter, it runs along Pitkin for 1 block. The B14 runs on Sutter Ave. I know this belongs on bus talk.
Da Beastmaster
About a month or two ago I was still hearing "transfer to the F, L, and 63rd Street Shuttle" at 14th Street on the 2. (The conductor overrode the automated announcements to give out this incorrect information.)
Also about a month ago, during one of the weekends when the 7 wasn't running in Manhattan, at Grand Central on the 4/5 the conductor helpfully announced that there was no 7 train service at the station. Unfortunately, he then went on to say "take this train to 59th Street and transfer to an N train to Queensboro Plaza". A passenger would have had to wait a couple of days for that N train.
Only once out of hundreds of rides through Fulton/Broadway-Nassau do I remember a human conductor correctly leaving out the J/M/Z at Fulton on weekends. The automated announcements on the 5 seem to correctly omit the J/M/Z on weekends ... I remember once some passengers getting off a 5 at Fulton on a Sunday complained to each other about how the new-fangled subway trains couldn't get the transfer announcements right, because it forgot the J.
"I don't think NYCT mentioned using CCTV; that idea was promulgated here on SubTalk "
This was actually mentioned in Peter Kalikow's Daily News Editiorial last weeks. It even mentioned that the MTA has been testing Computer software that detects voilence
Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder.
The article, in talking about using software that detects violence in CCTV images, mentioned problems with the software categorizing innocent pushing/shoving as criminal activity. That software will really be something if the problems can be worked out. I don't think the public will be willing to wait until that time. Nevertheless, I think the booth closure plan is generally a sound one.
David
Unfortunately, I think all the CCTV will await the whole new data network, which won't be finished until 2009 -- if funding allows it to be finished. There are six or seven massive, and massively expensive projects at different stages what will really change things if the money remains and they are carried off.
But I keep getting these pop-ups that advertize these cheap webcams. Maybe these could be installed in stations and linked to the booths that will remain open quickly, and monintored by station agents. CCTV monitored from a central station could be added later on.
I believe the MTA's plan is two fold.
CCTV camera's monitored by the remaining station agents(ie the setup at sheapshead bay on Q).
Two eventual central monitoring once the data network upgrade is complete. According to the MTA website, the fiber optics lines are already in place. All that needs to be done is new atm switches and nodes for each station and build data rooms to house the Computer equiptment at the station level.
One of the reasons I belive the MTA has not been bangin the drums with thier security plan is that all the ani-everything crowd qould step in and stop the deployment. On a positive note, the MTA is getting federal funding from the homeland security department to upgrade security. Some of this money could be used to install the cctv system.
"That software will really be something if the problems can be worked out. I don't think the public will be willing to wait until that time"
The software could still be useful especially in off hours periods focusing the monitoring center areas of potential trouble
I'm very curious as to how software would 'detect' violence. Anyone care to elaborate?
Sophisticated image-correlation software - basically a form of AI (artificial intelligence). It's getting surprisingly good, although I don't know enough about the technology to say if it's good enough yet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"2. Why should I believe that the MTA will maintain CCTV any better than it maintains escalators? And besides, I can see them closing the booths now and only getting the CCTV installed in 4 years. "
This should be the issue our local politicians should be fighting for. Install safety equiptment first. In fact the MTA has installed CCTV at a few of the stations with booth closings
In reference to Station Agents:
"Concidering that they make more then many police officers."
A Police Officer earns $65,000 top pay. A station agent, without O/T earns only about (to my knowledge) $30,000, maybe less. S/A's pay scale are slightly less than Conductors. So where you do make that statement that an NYPD officer earns less than a S/A? I like to see the source of this misleading piece of information.
S/A make $23 an hour. $23
* 35 hour workweek(without overtime)
*52 weeks
= $41,860
Source NYPD Web Site http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/chfpers/recruit-faq.html#faqp
"A probationary police officer will earn $34,514 (without overtime, holiday pay, night differential, and uniform allowance) and will increase to $54,048 after five years.
That is STILL $12,188 more that what a station Agent makes after 5 years on the NYPD job.
But a police office provides real security to the riding public. S/A provide no security plus the position is obsolete.
$15 a hour is overly generous for what a S/A does which is essentialy a cachier or clerk.One could argue that the job is far less work then a cachier at a suppermarket or a bank teller(worked both jobs) I am not saying that a person could live well in NYC on $15 an hour but that is more then the going rate for the position in the private sector without bennifits
The riding public needs addtioal security, more frequent train service. The role of the S/A provides little to the riding public. It certainly does not provide security. If you want securtiy hire more police officer. In addtion the city can get federal monies to offset the cost of Police officer. The MTA is gettting money from the department of homeland securtiy for securtiy
Not to long ago, there were full page ads in some of the local papers from PathMark. It seems that Pathmark was in negotiations with one of its Unions and not having much luck and was trying to show what some of their employees were already making. A full-time cashier at Pathmark was making $17+/hr, company sponsored pension plan, and a non-contributory health plan. Of course, they are also allowed bathroom and lunch breaks.
$17/hr. for a store clerk!!!. Those Pathmark HR fools laid down at the negotiating table and should have been canned for BAD performance over a period of YEARS. No wonder Pathmark went bankrupt and I'm a unionist.
You get what you pay for. If you pay $8.50 for a clerk you can easily get someone who takes twice as long to process each order, saving you no salary money, making poorer use of your capital investment in space and equipment, and providing your customers with an incentive to go to another store.
S/A are already slow as crap. They take thier sweet ass time even when a train is coming. It is hard to immagine them working any slower.
A fair salary for a S/A would be in the $12-15 range. That is the going rate for a similar postion.
NJ Turnpike has part time toll collectors which as of 1997 were paid $8 an hour. One of my college buddies worked for them
I really would like to tell you what I think Mr. Unreasonbable - I'm supposed to rush for you? I think not. I don't let anyone rush me, because then I might make mistakes with the money. If I lose money, will you reimburse me?.
You're so gung ho what Clerks make, and what you think they're worth, let me ask, what is your occupation and what do you make for a salary?
You may be the first person to be on my killfile.
I have *NEVER* seen Stef so aggravated. Just an observation.
Peace,
ANDEE
You ought to see Stef at work! He busts his ass more than someone left nameless thinks otherwise.
Well, as Stef knows. I support the closing of *SOME* booths.
What I do not support is the attack of some (most of note:Voiceofreason) is that the existing S/As, do not earn thier salary.
Let me tell YOU something:
They EARN it every single day. In more ways than you'll EVER know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry< Douce Man....NOT direted at you.
Peace,
ANDEE
If I have a very good reason why some S/a's are worth their weight in gold consider this:
At Newkirk Ave station on the Brighton line, I had a very pleasant S/A who worked the AM tour (Flatbush41 would know who I'm talking about), her name was Mary. Before Mary got bumped on the new pick, she would know people by name, asked me how I was doing, was very helpful with directions (sometimes I pitched in too.). She is now somewhere else, for security reasons, I will not disclose the station.
But an MVM cannot say hello to you, or ask you how are you doing.
That is all well and good but how high do we have to push fares up before enough is enough. The purpose of mass transit is to get people where they need to be so that people can conducted of life. The constantly esculating salairies many unions have won have forced prices for virtually everything in the 5 bouroughs so high that industry has left us and or is leaving due to obsessive cost of doing business. Compare the cost of business of jersey city to brooklyn. The construction cost alone are nearly double due to out of bound union contracts
For every helpful S/A there are 2 unhelpful agents. For the salary that s/a make for the job they do they should be required to speak the language of their neighborhood
Quite frankly S/A have priced themselves out of jobs by the success the union has had and bumping thier salaries far higher then the going rate. The union held the MTA hostage when they had no other means of fare control. Metrocard has changes this
What is a shame is if you look at the salary structure of the MTA. The less skill jobs tend to make more then the going rate while the skilled jobs tend to make less then the going rate.
T
But an MVM cannot say hello to you, or ask you how are you doing.
Yeah and when they aren't working and no one's around to see it someone will try to put their fist through one.
Once again the MVM's communicate automatically with central administration. Someone knows the machine needs service.
Once again the MVM's communicate automatically with central administration. Someone knows the machine needs service.
And if someone puts their fist through it its out of service period until someone gets there, whereas it may have been able to serve a customer in a different capacity.
You ideal of replacing S/As with MVM's is great for a utopian society, but hey, this is NY where anger and vandalism rule, and most people won't think twice about destroying something that don't work the way they need anyway.
Hense the need for CCTV and increase police patrol and enforcement.
Arrest the offenders. Make fines and penalties for tamporing with MTA fare control equiptment high.
The vandalism argument is overblown. Most vandals commit vandalism because there is no fear of retribution for thier actions. The majority of vandals once punished don' commit another act of vandalism Currently 95% of station areas are unattended and vandalism is far more in control then it has ever been.
There are hundreds of CCTV cameras systemwide with very few vandalism incidents.
How many serious vandalism incidents have occured to MVM's since thier introduction. Not many.
Only time will be able to resolve this argument.
Do you KNOW why the fare is going up or are you just speculating? Station Agents are about $25 million out of a $3+ billion NYCT budget. Clearly, the station agents are not the cause of the deficit. I agree that modernization may be necessary in this area. However, modernization does not mean that whoever the technology replaced couldn't do their job. Not only is that incorrect, it borders on arrogant.
The fare is going up for the following reasons:
1) There has not been a fare hike in seven years. Even at the 1.8-2.5 yearly inflation that we have seen, cost have climbed more than 14% overall, despite the efficiencies that the MTA has tried to implement (OPTO).
2) The 2000-2004 Capital Budget had a lot of "revenue bonds" in there. Revenue bonds are backed by revenue and the MTA must maintain a certain amount of revenue lest their bonds are declared junk and forces their borrowing cost up higher. Quite a bit of our new technology that can reduce the amount of humans in the system and make the rest more efficient COSTS MONEY. The amount of revenue bonds in that budget are 5-10 times the cost of station agents, which means an additional $15-25 million of DEBT service because we move so slowly on capital projects that the federal formula has changed and will make future projects more expensive for us.
3) There have been few service breakthroughs in our bus system since the MTA has taken over. There is demand for faster buses between boroughs as well as connections to New Jersey, but we "don't do interstate service" leaves lots of buses to sit in the garage instead of doing something useful with them. These huge holes in our system force people to drive because mass transit takes too long. Increased transit covergae will make the ENTIRE system more attractive.
Those things have much more effect than the station agents. What's the use of attempting to make an inefficient route system (mainly bus) more efficient by automated fare collection? It's nice, but the real problem is not being addressed because it is so much harder.
"Station Agents are about $25 million out of a $3+ billion NYCT budget."
I think you're off by a factor of 10 (which makes SAs signficant but still not huge as a cost).
4000 S/As x $40,000/year = $160 million (plus the supervision in place to manage them, plus money set aside for future pensions, plus benefits).
I remember reading that they would save $25 million from the reductions. That's the role it has in the debate, not $160 million.
$25 million is the cost to be saved upon closing the first 177 mostly part time tooken booths. Some of these booths are open as little as 4-5 hours a day. That is just the tip of the iceburg of the cost of all tooken booths.
The MTA is one of the most labor intensive rail operators in the country largely due it's slow deployment of technologies that have been used other places for decades.
$100 million wasted here, $100 million waste there adds up real quick. It is $200 million that does not get spent on something needed such as more frequent train service. Upgrading tunnel lighting to compact florecent bulbs(saves electricity and labor cost of changing bulbs), Adding ADA complinent elavators that will allow the illination of some north south bus routes in manhattan and better station security.
"Adding ADA complinent elavators that will allow the illination of some north south bus routes in manhattan"
Assume every subway station in Manhattan had working elevators. Which bus route would you propose to eliminate (I assume that's what "illination" means) without having a severe impact on the many elderly who can't walk more than a few blocks?
I agree, you could reduce service on some routes.
Looks like he was figuring for the entire workforce of S/A's.
I did like AlM and got $21 million, but I used 177 booths at full time meaning 3 clerks.
$40,000 x 3 clerks per year per booth x 177 booths ~~ $21.2M
Of course there aren't 3 clerks per booth as they're only part time, so they probbaly only see 2. So $25 sounds good (including into the mix pension and other misc costs).
You have made many good points. I am not against a modest fare increase to help keep the transportation system running well. I have also went over the fiancial statements and agree that it is needed. My effective cost of fare since metrocard transfers were introduced in 1996(assuming cost per ride metrocard +10% discount) has went down from $5 a day to $3 a day.
Yes, removing un-needed obsolete station agents will not cover the entire budget shortfall. It was never intened to. The Fare control automation program predates any talk of fare increases. They are two separate issues entrirely.
"Station Agents are about $25 million out of a $3+ billion NYCT budget"
This is not an accurate figure. $25 million will be saved by closing the first wave of 177 tooken booths. The cost of tooken booths is acutally far higher. If you look at it logically why pay $25 million for something that is not needed.
The MTA has not done a good job in recent years implimenting effeciency improvements. With a surplus at hand that was largely due to revenues not asssociated with the bus and subway system, It may have been deemed politically incorrect to impliment effeciency changes that were needed.
Station automation is the best example. It cost the MTA money to install metrocard and the associated MVM's but due to political forces it gingerly went about automating fare controls and reducing booth hours. It is hard to justify to a public which is often misinformed by the huge anti-change alarmest crowd in NY why you are cutting costs while you have a surplus. These groups often fail to realize a penny saved in one area gets spent to another areas that may be more useful.
Automating fare control is just one of a multitude of technology driven effeciency enhancements that the MTA has invested in. The $25 million dollars you quote is just the first 177 tooken booths that will close. There are numerous other booths that are candidates for closure that are not on the list. It is the first one that can show real return on investment for the riding public.
There are many others operational improvements that could potentially reduce costs and increase overall rider experience including
1)Reducing and improving the overly large top heavy administration.
2)Utilizing Half train OPTO on most lines overnight. Many lines including major lines like the brighton can utilize four car OPTO from 9PM-5:30 AM. Currently OPTO is used on very few lines. This will expand greatly with the introduction of new rail equiptent that contains full width cabs. OPTO will allow the TA to run more trains at a reduced cost which has the potential to attract more off hours riders. Many riders on nights and weekends avoid the subways because of the increased wait times especially if they need to change trains
3)Implimenting ATO which will allow the TA to cut crews to ONE all day on the L in the near future. Enhanced OPTO utilizing CCTV platform Cameras and in-cab flat pannel monitors could also be utilized as a interum solution until CBTC is installed system wide. The biggest money saver is due tot he fact that the MTA currently is forced to run near rush hour service levels all day due to the ending of the practice of swing shifts(4 hours morning rush, 4 hour evening rush)
4)Reconfiguring the West end Elavated line placing express stations at apropiate location. Improve the feeder bus network. This will reduce demand for express bus service in Dyker Hights, Bensonhurst and Bath Beach. This area has huge express bus ridership due to the slow W (former B) train service.
5)Increase service on R and N running at least one of these trains express would reduce the need for express bus service in BAY RIDGE saving another small chunck of money
The cost to join and split trains offsets OPTO savings. Not only do you need people to physically split trains, but you then need to shuffle said split trains in the yeard. This is not a trivial process.
But an MVM cannot say hello to you, or ask you how are you doing.
Hello, Kool-D, how are you doing this evening?
Did I just earn twenty bucks?
Hey if you want the MVM can say "hello, welcome to the MTA Subways Have a plesent day" Each time you go to purchace a metrocard. This would get quite irratating over time
One note: Earlier this week the TLC announced that it is scraping the safety announcements inside cabs. Riders found them annoying.
Instead of you guys arguing over whether a job is obsolete or not, why not do something real constructive and put in a good word for the Sea Beach on my behalf. Next year will come faster than we think and I cannot fathom the thought that my train might still be stuck in the Montague rat hole.
Instead of you guys arguing over whether a job is obsolete or not, why not do something real constructive and put in a good word for the Sea Beach on my behalf. Next year will come faster than we think and I cannot fathom the thought that my train might still be stuck in the Montague rat hole.
I'm sorry. Instead of discussing the Sea Beach train, we were actually discussing something important.
But an MVM cannot say hello to you, or ask you how are you doing.
Neither can the OPTO train operator. A lot of people used to come up to me as a C/R just to have someone to talk to. Same thing with S/A's.
"They EARN it every single day. In more ways than you'll EVER know"
You're preaching to the choir. I'm an agent as well as Stef.
I know and appreciate that.
Peace,
ANDEE
The problem with this city is that everyone thinks that they deserve more money for what they do.
The latest example is that child care babysiters saw that teachers got a raise an now they want to get paid as much as teachers.
the end result will be less child care slots for working mothers(many former welfare reciepents trying to get thier life together) and more mothers will not be able to work thus.
The facts are simple. Overpay for a particual job function and all it does is drive up the cost of living in NYC. The end result is that you dollar buys less and thus you are far worse off overall
I don't mean any of my comments to be personal attacts against anyone on the board. Work is not ment to be easy. Everyone's work is hard. A S/A job is more difficult then a suppermarket check out person. If we would pay them the salary that we pay S/A a gallon of milk would be $10. A pound of chicken $20 etc.
I think you're aiming this at voiceofreason instead of me.
No problem.
What I do not support is the attack of some (most of note:Voiceofreason) is that the existing S/As, do not earn thier salary.
Let me tell YOU something:
They EARN it every single day. In more ways than you'll EVER know.
Some may work hard, but that doesn't change the fact that the job is obsolete. The work they do can be done by MVM's.
As with any profession some do work hard but many don't.
For the premium S/A get paid as compared to others working in similar(and in the case of suppermarket cachiers and bank tellers more demanding positions*** ) there should be some urgency in processing orders from customers. I can't tell you how many times the s/a takes his sweet ass time filling my order. Another place your union has failed you is that they should have pushed for machinery to aid in giving the correct change. Many wendy's resturants have a machine that gives change. A consumer hands over money. The cachier enters the amount given. The machine dispences change
If you read up the thread my point was that is if the sole justification of not closing tooken booths is that s/a provide security then would it not be better to hire more police officers and institute other security measures that give the MTA more bang for the buck.
The role of the S/A is obsolete and should be phases out. I am not avocating anyone getting fired.
Footnotes
***Why? the is no dead periods to relax while working in a suppermarket or bank. When the number of people on line deminishes you have other work to do.
Many wendy's resturants have a machine that gives change. A consumer hands over money. The cachier enters the amount given. The machine dispences change
Those machines are being phased out.
the is no dead periods to relax while working in a suppermarket or bank. When the number of people on line deminishes you have other work to do.
The same is true for station agents.
My work never ends. Even if the line starts to die down, I still have to complete my paper work, count money, and bag it for safe deposit.
-Stef
***Why? the is no dead periods to relax while working in a suppermarket or bank. When the number of people on line deminishes you have other work to do.
I'm not a station agent, but working platform at stations I got to get glimpses of what some of them do. And in your so called 'rest periods' there's stuff to be done. Some of the S/A's I guess just choose to break and leave all the crap to the last minute, then worry when the stuff don't balance out.
I was a bank teller before working at the TA and we got breaks, and there were dead periods that we could use to relax.
Also, to my knowledge banks are not allowed to force an employee to make up for a shortage (except they can fire one if the shortage is great). I don't know about supermarket clerks. The TA DOES make you pay. So the slowness is intentional so that they do things correctly, and get every bit of the paycheck they deserve. Which wouldn't be a problem if NYers were honest. Even in the bank, you give someone an extra $5, they don't tell you. They walk off with it. Don't tell me most give it back. So complain about the slowness, but I commend the S/A's for doing their job properly.
" I don't know about supermarket clerks"
Supermarket clerks must pay for any shortages in their draw. In a bank if you are consistantly short you will not hava a long stay at the bank.
As in stated in one of my earlier posts, the Union should have fought for machinery that automatically gives proper change to aid the S/A. This would remove much of the stress from S/A and also allow them to process customers quickly
This would work if that machinery worked properly.
But as you've probably noticed, even ATM's usually give 20's, a very few give 10s as well. The reason for this being that with one type of currency to worry about the probability error drops.
You could argue that the S/A would then double check what the machine gave them, but then we're back to the whole slow issue.
I find he's perfectly within reason to be. In this day and age where its so hard to get by, especially in NYC (NY1 just had a report recently where the average NY'er pays MORE THAN HALF of their monthly salary to rent), that people are saying 'eliminate the S/A' and 'reduce their pay'.
It was suggested reduce their pay to $15. Fine. As a TW/O I'm currently making that being new, so I can make the comparison for you here. Guess what? After rent I have just about a whopping $500 to cover the rest of my bills, and whatever else I may need (prescriptions, food, clothing). And there aren't many places in NYC screaming 'cheap rent' so moving isn't the answer (In fact in the previously mentioned NY1 report the average vacancy around the city was somewhere around 2-3%, Staten Island having none at all). Oh, and I'd be lucky to put in a 40 hour work week, which in reality, never happens.
So what I'm basically hearing is "you don't have a private sector job" or even "because you're not me" you don't have a right to live. Yeah its enough to make anyone aggrevated, no matter who you work for and where you work.
I'll be one go to for being paid less by your suggestion when you find me the same housing (by that I mean same place, same quality) for significantly less. And us hourlies don't get any cost of living increases either, so when the rent goes up, we have to cover it.
The MTA isn't there for workfare, its purpose isn't to create jobs just so more people can have a salary.
Well, as Stef knows. I support the closing of *SOME* booths.
What I do not support is the attack of some (most of note:Voiceofreason) is that the existing S/As, do not earn thier salary.
Let me tell YOU something:
They EARN it every single day. In more ways than you'll EVER know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee.
I won't dispute the possibility of some booths being closed. There are a few places that aren't making any money, and wouldn't be a great loss in my view. Heck, my home station only has a booth on the downtown platform!
Now, if you try to close a Part Time Booth at the Port Authority or Herald Sq, I might say that was nuts, as those places are already busy.
In the midst of closings, I'd say it will be harder for high seniority clerks with 25-30 years under their belt to find a decent booth job.....
>>>Now, if you try to close a Part Time Booth at the Port Authority or Herald Sq, I might say that was nuts, as those places are already busy. <<<
They planning just that at Herald Square, A22 and A25 are supposed to be closed.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think that will leave more of a load on the three surviving IND Booths, N505, N506 (!) and N507, but it is merely my opinion.
N506, which is nearest to Macy's, will keep you going! 14 Turnstiles is a lot for a Clerk. At one time there was an Assist, in addition to the Main Clerk. You can start closing booths, but in return, I'd like to see some of those Assist Jobs restored at the busier booths.
I should know about N506, because I've worked it. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
-Stef
I am *quite* familiar with N506, and you know why. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Tell the rest of us how you're familiar.
Andee works in that area.
-Stef
OK
"Now, if you try to close a Part Time Booth at the Port Authority or Herald Sq, I might say that was nuts, as those places are already busy"
The part time booth at Herald Square are already closed the majority of the day with no problems. I hate to say it but two MVM's process orders faster then one S/A. I use this fare control almost daily.
The only issues is that there are not enough HEET's and a need for an exit only Iron Maiden. This is to be adressed when the fare controls go automated 24/7.
The Herald square part time booths are only open during rush hour's.
Yes, your point is well taken as always....
By the way, you are INCORRECT about Booth Hours. The P/T Booths are not open ONLY during the Rush Hour. If you use the fare control at 34th St, you should know that.
The P/T Booth, opposite the Main Booth on 34th St, is open during the AM Rush, and the booth is staffed on the PMs from afternoon until night. The Clerk works a full 8 hour tour on the PMs.
The other Booth on 32nd St and Bway is open from 6AM-9PM.
MVMs are useful when they work properly. They process orders faster than S/As. Wonderful! When someone tampers with the machine and Customer complains about losing their money or not getting a Card, I have to hear about it....
"By the way, you are INCORRECT about Booth Hours. The P/T Booths are not open ONLY during the Rush Hour. If you use the fare control at 34th St, you should know that"
Yes you are right the both oposite macy's is open when i leave class at 9PM. I hardly notice because I never see anyone use it and even when the booth is empty all the lights are on inside(stef is there an off switch for the lights inside the booth). The S/A most likely is there for a full shift because it does not make sense to shift the person somewhere else after 7 pm because he/she is not needed anyone else. Isn't there union rule that s/a need to be guarenteed a certain number of hours per shift?
"Wonderful! When someone tampers with the machine and Customer complains about losing their money or not getting a Card, I have to hear about it.... "
This happans far less then some people make it seem to happen.
"Wonderful! When someone tampers with the machine and Customer complains about losing their money or not getting a Card, I have to hear about it.... "
This happans far less then some people make it seem to happen.
You seem so certain about this, but you don't cite where you get this information. It may not happen when you're around. Come to the outlying areas and I'm sure you'll see it happen more often than in Manhattan.
They're poor at maintaining those machines at the level they should be. A station like Parsons-Archer (hardly an outlying area), half of the machines are unable to deliver in one form or anther. "No bills at this time." "No cards at this time.", etc.
I would hope that situation would improve if they closed associated booths, but, well, this is the TA we're talking about here.
>>Stef is there an off switch for the lights inside the booth
Yes there is, but booths are usually left lit.
>>The S/A most likely is there for a full shift because it does not make sense to shift the person somewhere else after 7 pm because he/she is not needed anyone else. Isn't there union rule that s/a need to be guarenteed a certain number of hours per shift?
There are jobs where Clerks will do a combination of booth manning and give 30 Minute Lunch Breaks to other Clerks. I can think of at least one instance, where a Clerk closes a P/T Booth at 7:30PM, takes lunch, and then gives a Lunch Break to other Clerks.
All jobs are on an 8 hour shift unless otherwise specified. There are some jobs with built in overtime. I've worked 10 hour jobs.
>>This happans far less then some people make it seem to happen.
That is your opinion. I had one person jam all of my working MVMs on Monday towards the end of my shift, leaving me with no working machines.
-Stef
>>>I had one person jam all of my working MVMs on Monday towards the end of my shift, leaving me with no working machines.<<<
What is your recourse when you see this happening?
Peace,
ANDEE
I have to report the malfunctioning machines to Jay St. They'll send a maintainer with an armed escort to do the necessary repairs. If I report it as vandalism over the Emergency Booth Communication System, the Police will be sent over, and I'll probably be writing a statement about the vandalism to my superiors (What I saw, a description of the perk, etc).
-Stef
And it takes time before someone (Police/Maintainer/Supervisor) will come about the MVM.
Alot of times agents don't see people jamming the MVM's. They might see someone standing at the MVM looking at it trying to do a transaction then leaving. The jam doesn't become known to the agent until a customer attempts to get a card. The dispencer is jammed and money is lost.
Are you sure the money is lost? I once tried to buy a card at a machine whose MetroCard slot was apparently jammed. I got a receipt with a cryptic message and my credit card wasn't charged. I assume that any cash inserted would have been returned.
The MVM would be jammed where the bills would return. The customer would cancel the transaction, not get their money back. They would go to the agent in the booth to complain. The person who jammed it would take the obstruction out and the person's money would return. But not to the customer, But the person who unjammed the MVM. Hence, the money was lost to the customer.
MVM's now would shut down at the first sign of a jam and issue a receipt. The customer should then call downtown and do what they're instructed. I'm not sure what because people have done so and never told me I was wrong. I guess if they still have the receipt for an incident they'll be refunded.
They take thier sweet ass time even when a train is coming.
Here's a suggestion: leave a little earlier. You're like the guys that leave home so they get to work with 3 minutes to spare then bitch when a train gets held up by people holding the doors. Or someone gets sick and Queens Blvd has delays up the @$$.
If you know you need money on the card, its as simple as 5 minutes. And with headways in most areas in the 5 minute range, the next train is not far off.
And ever think S/A's are slow and nasty because they're returning the same 'courteousy' that the customers extend to them?
Sounds like a few customers I've met at work. They give you their money and EXPECT you to KNOW what they're thinking of without them saying what they want.
For example if someone gives me $3 without saying anything, How am I supposed to know if they want 2 tokens or a $3 card? Remind them they have to ask, they act like I should have already known beforehand. Some have even told me they didn't think TA sold tokens anymore.
And those who rush to the window at the last minute sometimes expect me to give them their tokens BEFORE they give me their money. Sometimes those people will even try to do it on purpose.
Or they'll bring their baby strollers to the service gate and demand I unlock the gate so that they can get in. They say they will pay "after" they get in. Sometimes they'll "forget" to pay after I let them in. So I'm an ass if I let them in "before" paying and I'm an ass if I insist they pay "before" I unlock the gate. In a case like that, I insist they pay first. I may be an ass. But at least the customer paid their fare.
The one caveat is that most cacheirs at pathmart are non-union part time employees. In addition PATHMART is rolling out automated self checkout stations at all it's stores. The Store near my house on Nostrand AVE in brooklyn has 4 automated self checkout terminals. They appear to be a hit.
The health bennifits and penion plan is nothing to speak about. The health plan is rather costly for far less then what an MTA employee gets.
Average out the top paid union employee with the part timer's and your average salary is closer to $10 an hour with no bennifits. The Full time employees allowed the supermarket to add more part timers in excahnge for higher pay. Supermarket Union have little leverage other then to cause bad PR for the store. Thus the add showing how much they actually make.
The Store near my house on Nostrand AVE in brooklyn has 4 automated self checkout terminals. They appear to be a hit.
I like them myself... the A&P where I do over 50% of my shopping has them. The biggest drawback is that, when I'm purchasing a lot of one item, I have to scan each one - no capability to enter QUANTITY 24 or something like that. And I, being a savvy shopper, often buy items in that kind of quantity when they're on sale. Plus I take Jr. along and he does the bagging... far better than the store employees do. (I'll never forget one instance, many years ago now, when I failed to watch the bagger carefully... got out to my car and discovered that he had put the milk in the same bag as the hot dog buns... ON TOP of them... and apparently dropped a 12-pack of Coke onto the bag with the eggs when loading the cart. And the store manager couldn't understand why I was complaining.) Not all of the self-checkouts are easy to use, however... there's a ShopRite that I've been to a couple of times with a self-checkout, but it's not set up to accomodate someone with a cartful of groceries, only those with three or four items max.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"The biggest drawback is that, when I'm purchasing a lot of one item, I have to scan each one - no capability to enter QUANTITY 24 or something like that."
This is indeed a problem. The self-check out at pathmart are intended for small orders. There is a security feature that weighs the bags and compares them to the weight of items purchaced. Adding a multiple quantity feature may be deemed self defeating to this system. I was diapointed with the layout of the system. For one it is not very ergonomic.
The future of self checkout is smartcard like technology. There has been talk of moving in this direction for a few years now. It is just a matter of waiting for the cost to come down low enough for this to be feasable. If labor costs go up sharply, count on seeing it sooner
The future of self checkout is smartcard like technology.
Not quite sure I understand what you're driving at here... care to elaborate? I spent 16 years in the modern scanner/cash register business but have been out of it for nearly nine years now so I'm not as up on the latest developments as I once was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read in an industry journal that grocery chains were looking into replacing the current optical based barcode scanner technology with a radio based scanner technology(ie technology similar to ez-pass). Each item would be encoded with a unique signiture that the scanner would read. Essentially the checkout order passes down the checkout belt through a small tunnel without the need for a checkout person on each line. The problem was that the cost of encoding the product was far too steep cocncidering the tight profit margin in the suppermarket business. I have honestly not done any reasearch recently on this matter.
There is two bennifits.
1)Reduced labor cost. Self checkout with smaller opurtunity to steal.
2)Need for fewer checkout lines due faster total order checkout. This allows retailers to better utilize the store space.
OK, now I follow... and I suspect that the cost will remain prohibitive, at least on a relative scale, for a long time. Bar codes are essentially free. And labor costs are still low enough that, even when highly accurate scanning technology is available (able to read from essentially any angle, no matter how dirty the scanner glass, etc.) the supermarkets won't invest the extra $500 per scanner to get it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agents make $20.01 an hour
41.25 hours a week
52 weeks a year
= $32,720
SOURCE: My pay stub
It had been previously posted that S/A make $23 an hour. either way the fact is that many police officer make as much as officers
BY the Way your math is wrong
$20.01*41.25 = $825.41 a week
$825.41 * 52 = $42,921 a year
source my calculator
Anyway you look at it, it is far more then the $34,514 a police officer with less than 5 year on the job makes for a far more dangerous and important position
S/A Have to work 3 full years to get to full pay (70%,85%,90% if I remember correctly) plus I doubt S/A make more then C/R's and only $1 less then T/O's
I doubt it too. And C/R top pay right now is 22-something, so an S/A cannot be making 23.
You ought to lok at my pay stub. $20.01 an hour. I don't know where you come up with $23 an hour. My pay stub is more correct than your website.
"Anyway you look at it, it is far more then the $34,514 a police officer with less than 5 year on the job makes for a far more dangerous and important position"
The Police office earns $34,514 for the first year, plus uniform allowance (NYCT does not provide uniform allowance to my knowledge!), and increases annually. So a police office with 4 years experience, gets about $49,000, NOT $34,514 as you mentioned. Still it's more than a C/R or a Train operator, 1st year.
If you want to endorse booth closings, why aren't you complaing about blanant discrimination in certain areas. Why 66th st/Lincoln Center with 3 booths, is not on the hit list? Why is only one booth each at Times Square and Grand Central on the chopping block? Of the EIGHT booths at 34th st/8th Ave IND, only the useless booth inside Penn Station is on the hit list, why not the 2 booths at 35th st?
"If you want to endorse booth closings, why aren't you complaing about blanant discrimination in certain areas"
Don't even try to make this race issue. As for enduring booth closings, many of the entrances i currently use are automated when i use them. Believe me noone will miss thier unfreindly slow, overpaid S/A. Take a look at areas currently automated ie: sheepshead bay voories ave, 34th street east entrance (midday), Certain entrances at union square and recently renovated stations on the broadway local. There is nothing to endure. People flow in and out, nobody seems to mind the MVM's.
Once the politico's and alarmests get bored of the issue you will see there will be no public outcry over booth closings. The public outcry there currently is is due to false information given by the TWU and local politicians who are panderign on the fears of thier elderly population. When metrocard was introduced as the only way to get senior discounts, there was an outcry that senior would not be able to figuer out how to use metrocard. That has been proven false.
If the new fare scheme that favors monthly and weekly passes is aproved, tooken booth utilization will fall even more dramatically then it already has.
I agree with you actually. They could close the Booth on the Uptown Platform at Lincoln Ctr. The Clerk is not very busy there, and the high wheels are already in place. I find it very interesting that Booth R159 hadn't been considered. Booth closings could be politically motivated. The autogate in the station could be remotely connected to the Booth across the street, allowing allpersons entry and exit.
Why close the Uptown Booth at 86th St and the not the Part Time Booth on the Downtown Side? I might have an answer: TA Bigwigs Live In The Area near 86th St. These are the kind of people, if the P/T booth closes ahead of schedule, they'll call downtown to complain.
Why do we have to cut Clerks? I'd cut at the top and start getting rid of Managers, VPs, and other higher ups.....
A few weeks ago when I was working at 79 St/B'way, I passed that uptown booth at 66 St on a sunday afternoon. The booth was closed. But there were alot of people getting off over there. And it was crowded. And during the week that I was working at 79 St, I'd see alot of people getting off on the other platform. Imagine if there was no booth on that side as TA wants to do? No turnstiles. Just a bunch of HEETS and HXTs. Mothers and baby strollers getting off and no way to get out. And no clerk on that side to open the gate.
Instead of cutting managers, VP's and other higher ups, why don't they work in the booth?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Yes, I think I see it now. But what higher up would want to do that?
-Stef
Put in their next contract (They have theirs) something like:
If they want to remain sitting in their office chairs, they have to sit in a booth chair once a pay period. It would also teach them to be nice to the supervisors at the desk. After all they'll assign jobs to them.
Of course not all higher ups came from Stations. Some came from other divisions and departments. But it would give them something to think about considering they might have to go back to "work"
What about 86th St? There's a lot of traffic there, and the TA wants to close R165.... What's the difference between the passenger loads at 86th vs 66th?
-Stef
I think in the long run, TA will only close a few booths. They say now they want to close so many places. As the hearings go on, they'll decide to close only a few. Then they'll say they listened to the people and acted according to their wishes. And probably by that time TA will also "find" the money needed to keep those booths open.
By the time we go to pick, we'll know what places will be closed or not.
Why close the Uptown Booth at 86th St and the not the Part Time Booth on the Downtown Side? I might have an answer: TA Bigwigs Live In The Area near 86th St. These are the kind of people, if the P/T booth closes ahead of schedule, they'll call downtown to complain.
I don't follow. I also live in the area. Why would anyone who uses the system prefer an attended entrance at 87th that's sealed tight at all times except rush hours and a northbound platform that's inaccessible to anyone with strollers or large packages over a full-time entrance at 87th available to those who can use HEETs and a fully accessible northbound platform?
And why shouldn't they call in an early closing? If an S/A is being paid to man a booth until 10am, then the booth should be open and manned until 10am and not a minute earlier. An S/A who deliberately closes the entrance early is stealing from NYCT and hence the public.
Of course! I'm with you. The booth is scheduled to close at a certain time and it will close at that time. As for the higher ups, I really don't know why they prefer 87th St to 86th St. I was trying to illustrate the point of their influence.
BTW, I lock up the P/T Booth Entrance on Thursdays.
-Stef
Of course! I'm with you. The booth is scheduled to close at a certain time and it will close at that time. As for the higher ups, I really don't know why they prefer 87th St to 86th St. I was trying to illustrate the point of their influence.
Who are these people? I'll bet they all live south of 86th. I'll have to knock some sense into them. I've missed dozens of trains while walking by that closed entrance -- I do most of my traveling off-peak.
BTW, I lock up the P/T Booth Entrance on Thursdays.
Morning or evening? Does that mean you're also in the booth before it closes, or do you come by just to close it? I should drop by and introduce myself.
I escort the clerk from the P/T booth in the evening when it's time to close.
-Stef
I remember you my friend. You were on the Redbird Fan Trip.
"The autogate in the station"
The fact that an autogate is currently in place definitly has something to do with the booth being off the list. Is there elavator access into this fare control. This fare control also may be on a list to become ADA complient. The 177 booths on the list is mearly stage one. There a quite a few other booths that are good candidates for automation
"Why 66th st/Lincoln Center with 3 booths, is not on the hit list?"
That reminds me. Someone recently claimed that all ADA compliant entrances are staffed all the time so that someone is available to open up the exit gate.
Sunday at 2 PM the booth at 66th northbound was closed and only the HEETs were available. The elevator was working fine, except that people who really needed it wouldn't have been able to get to it.
How does this fit with NYCT ADA compliance policy?
"How does this fit with NYCT ADA compliance policy?"
Simple, the MTA is in violation of it. Example: Court Street is supposed to be ADA, for the 2,3 and northbound 4 and 5 trains, BUT the elevator and mezzanine are closed overnight. So there is no wheelchair access after 12 midnight when the booth is closed. The 24 hour entrance in front of Brooklyn Borough Hall has no elevator there.
Autogate.
"Autogate."
Who is there to operate it? Can the S/A across the tracks really see when someone needs it?
Autogate is operated by passengers themselves. There is a special autogate metrocard that is issued to hadicape persons which operates a special access gate called "autogate". No assitance needed by MTA staff. there is one major flaw in the design of autogate. It contains a metrocard slot similar to ones on buses which is prone to being used as a trash receptical. Autogate will most likley be the first application of smart card technology because of this issue
Not that it's a perfect solution to begin with. IINM, ADA requires accessibility to anyone off the street, not just those who have registered in advance. A random wheelchair-bound tourist is unlikely to have an Autogate MetroCard.
I think PATH has the right idea. Ease up a bit and use regular turnstiles. Install cameras and customer service phones (outside and inside fare control). Allow the gate to be unlocked remotely from the customer service site.
In fact, until something like this is implemented, I will be in favor of closing part-time booths (barring traffic flow concerns) but I will maintain that there must be at least one booth accessible to each platform. That isn't the case in NYCT's current plan.
"I think PATH has the right idea. Ease up a bit and use regular turnstiles. Install cameras and customer service phones (outside and inside fare control). Allow the gate to be unlocked remotely from the customer service site"
The MTA should look into implimenting the above. There are customer service phones at some of the newly renovated fare controls.
A combination of automated autogate and cctv monitored remote access is the way to go. These are the issue that our politicains and so-called transit advocates should be raising. I suggested the above in a letter i sent to the MTA recently. HEETS are good for part time entrances, but monitored CCTV with turnstyles can be used at certain entrances effectivly also
Also they don't make it widely known. At Parsons_Archer people try to use it all the time to get through with baby strollers and the like, and are clueless as to why it doesn't work.
I don't see why they can't have the gate work with a normal metrocard. Either way there's no telling how many people go through unless someone is there to watch.
" don't see why they can't have the gate work with a normal metrocard. Either way there's no telling how many people go through unless someone is there to watch"
If they did then every two bit scammer would set up shop
Just imagine a swiper opens the gate, He charges $1 for every person who wants to go thru. Even if the agent calls the police, The swiper will make a good chunk of money before the police come.
The Police have to actually see the guy do it before they take him in.... There are no deterrents to swiping as far as I can see (unless you have someone undercover, perhaps). Swipers are bold, they run with their tails between their legs, and then come back for more. How many times can I report swipers? Police Officers have more important things to tend to.
-Stef
When I was working Fulton-William a few weeks back, I'd call on the EBCS for police several times a day. 4 out of 5 times the police never came. After a while the swipers knew the police would never come. So they stayed and gave me their own descriptions when I called again. Of course I'd call back in a half hour to report police never arrived.
either way the fact is that many police officer make as much as officers
Yeah I think I remember that from logic in High School math. p = p.
nyway you look at it, it is far more then the $34,514 a police officer with less than 5 year on the job
Ok so you're comparing an S/A at top pay to a police officer who is not at top pay. I fail to see how that's a level comparison.
At $20.01 an hour and a 41.25 hour workweek you pay is $42,921 . The numbers don't lie. Wip out a calculator and do the math.
$20.01 * 41.25 = $825.41 a week
$825.41 a week * 52 weeks a year = $42,921 a year
I am using your numbers.
Operative words:
...(without overtime, holiday pay, night differential, and uniform allowance)...
"overtime, holiday pay, night differential, and uniform allowance"
This addtional work for which they get paid for. S/A also get paid for overtime. SO what's your point.
The facts are simple. A first year S/A gets paid more then a first year cop. PERIOD.
A 4th year S/A gets paid more then a 4th year COP.
Ask the riding public whether they would rather have more cops patroling the subways at night or more S/A? What do you think the answer would be. ???
Were you molestered by a token clerk as a child?
I rather have more frequent bus and train service rather then protecting a job title that is no longer needed.
Although there was a tooken booth clerk that worked at fort hamilton pkwy on the N that used to curse at all the neighborhood kids. Rumur had it that he still lived with his mother. We all called him "Sloth" from the movie Goonies
A police officer STARTS at just under $30,000 a year. A PO who does overtime [which is basically normal] can make quite a good salary. A S/A starts at about the same salary but I don't know the top pay they could make; a C/R makes about $40,000 a year and a T/O is slightly higher but I'm just making estimates. Maybe people who work these positions could tell how much they make [if they wish to do so].
It's a HEARING, not a LISTENING. Think about that.
It's also a HEARING and not a SPEAKING. The press constantly refers to the MTA people on the dais as 'sitting there stone-faced.' What should one expect them to do -- respond to each and every speaker? The board members are there to hear comments, not to make comments.
David
About 6 inches here in 'What's a shovel' Sea Cliff. Roads have been plowed, so buses should be fine. So has the TA put any Snow plans in effect?
Also there was a water main break downtown around The Battery last night. Was subway service affected?
["About 6 inches here in 'What's a shovel' Sea Cliff."]
Just wondering. Did you do any shoveling?
Yes, I did in fact. Since I am usually the only one in my building who shovels, so usually I do it.
This time someone did shovel the walk in front of my building, but it was in the morning and a few more inches fell, I shoveled the rest.
10-12" here in Boston. Many people bailed out of work early. On the commuter train this evening, the conductor announced, "Please move all the way into the center of the train. If anyone is small enought to jump into the overhead racks and lie down, please do so." At least the people laughed.
8 1/2 inchs here in philly where i live! :)
more snow is expect for monday and next firday turns out that the ta may need to get ready for a all winter pattern !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
I took a vacation day and railfanned Philly in the snow today. Started out taking PATCO from Collingswood to Lindenwold, then NJ Transit Atlantic City line Train #4612 to 30th Street.
My Philly pix are the bottom three/fifths of a Webshots page and include Acela Express, E60, AEM-7, Market St El, Route 100, Route 101, HHP-8, SEPTA Regional Rail.
I am out side of Philly about 30 miles northwest of the city
we got about 8"
Roads weren't too bad, but the R5 was a mess, we had lost power on the way in, and by time we got to Bryn Mawr, we lost all power
Had to wait to be pushed in by another train.
Got in to Suburban around 9, but it took an hour and a half!
RE: NEC this snowy morning...
As usual, the NEC got pretty messed up in the snowstorm. I attempted to catch train 3830, the 8:41 super express from NB, but unfortunaltely I missed it. Not a big deal, ordinarily, as the next train due in (3712) was due at 8:46. However, there were automated messages going off saying that 3710 expected at 8:21 never arrived because of a switch problem. NJT staff inside the station told me that the switch problem that delayed 3710 and 3712 was also going to delay 3714 and that the next train to definitely arrive would be 3832 at 9:23.
What ACTUALLY happened moments later was that a "passenger extra" train arrived at about 10 after nine, making all of 3712's stops -- staff did not collect tickets on this train, saying "crew -- just get them on and off, don't worry about tickets" and instructing passengers to "save their tickets for another day because we are having problems with the snow.
I figured that the train must have come from the Jersey Ave yard... but the problem is, all of the delayed trains came from Jersey Ave. Was their instead a failure at Jersey Ave and the train was just a very late arrival from farther south? Anyone have any more information about this in general (strangely enough, it didn't make it to NJT's alert center, apparently, as later I saw information relating to a 7:41 cancellation at Jersey Ave -- and trains later than 8:21 origininating from Jersey Ave weren't mentioned either)?
Thanks.
The problem started when 3812 lost power at Edison and ran 15 minutes late into Penn-NY. That crew of 3812 is supposed to then dead head back to Jersey Avenue to be 3712 back to New York so they were late to start with plus the other problems you mention.
A Bunch of kids in my school was talking about the "A Train Blew Up today", now of course I didn't believe that because I just got off the A Train like 10 minutes after I heard about it, Was there any major delays on the A Line in either direction today? I also saw a R44 A Train on the Local track going Manhattan Bound while I was on the Queens Bound (To: Euclid Ave.)Express Track.
-R143 AcelaExpress20005
Evidently your so-called "classmates" need some serious help or I think you sould report this matter to the proper authorites at the Federal level. This is what happens when people start spreading false rumors, God forbid if this shit happens for real.
This is so sad and sick to hear about this.
Naaaahhhh, think I they just trying get some attention and stir things up a bit, since its TGIF. If there were an explosion on the A, things would have gone in a huge mess. I was on the C line coming home from school, and nothin happens except a slow smooth ride. We even had some jerks hold up a train few mins by holding the door. I couldn't even imagining seeing a subway train blew up in the middle of operation. Just Like what you see on the movie called "THE SEIGE."
People in my generation are getting wild these days.
those kids need some help and fast,god forbid if it happens for real,
things would at a mess,my ride was slow and smooth,coming from the c line at euclid av,now if only those damn kids stop holding the doors.
til next time
I know what you mean, most of the kids that hold the doors, I know them, it be kinda fun though, because they wind have the cops come and then all this other stuff b happenin, I usually chill in the back of the train, they usually start shit up in the 6th Car of the C Train.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Yeah, mostly there's party going on the 6th Car of the C train. Cause there ain't any adult on that car. I usually ride the 5th Car and I hear Loud noise from the 6th car.
Wait, u from Transit Tech???
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Nope, just a local public high school in Leffert Blvd
Ah Ha!
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Well, Not exactly in Leffert Blvd, but station is my stop, the take the bus
Ah, I think I know what High School your at, you gotta take the Green Line bus, right?
Bingo! Yeapp. I gotta tell ya, I hated transfer between Subway and Bus visa-versa. Its a pain.
Well I was hearing kinda stories, that something went off in the tunnel on the Manhattan Side at Broadway or before Broadway, Im not sure.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Well those kids sound like they had nothing better to do :-\. And if God frobid something like that really happened...........
On my way to work yesterday, these high school kids on an uptown 4 train at 125St start yelling, "Im an Osama bomber" over and over. I dont think the cops that was standing by the door heard them....
Da Beastmaster
"On my way to work yesterday, these high school kids on an uptown 4 train at 125St start yelling, "Im an Osama bomber" over and over. I dont think the cops that was standing by the door heard them...."
Bunch a' little peckerheads. Yellin' like that....that must be how their mammas raised `em. Hope they get terminal acne.
kids!!watsamatter with kids today??? (song from bye bye birdie circa 1963)
LOL, great show...
If kids back then were bad, what does that make today's kids?
Dangerous?
"Hope they get terminal acne."
Or Osama get them first.
On my way to work yesterday, these high school kids on an uptown 4 train at 125St start yelling, "Im an Osama bomber" over and over. I dont think the cops that was standing by the door on the platform heard them....
Da Beastmaster
All service on the Main Line east of Jamaica is suspended.
Cute! And the LIRR had the "Holiday Extras" today because of the snowstorm. Extra train service (usually for day before Holidays) was added today.
800 commuters of the LIRR train were evacuated as the last car of the train caught fire at Merillion Ave station. Partial service restored on PJ, OB, and RNK lines at this time.
Uh oh, what happened, did that last car catch fire when all the commuters lit a pile of newspapers on fire to keep warm>
Somehow the last car caught fire twice. For what reason, I don't know.
Hi,
Recently someone sent me something for the upcoming events in feedback, I am sorry but I seem to have lost it, so please resend, if it was you..
Also if you're planning events and you want them listed please please send a feedback, i can't read all the messages posted here every day and I won't search for event info... so use the feedback form to send me the listing.
-Dave
The MG didn't reset on my train today. After a few tries, the crew gave up. We proceeded to Penn with emg. lights only. If the MG doesn't reset, what is the proceedure of restoring power back to the affected car?
Was this an M-1 car? I think the later cars have solid-state
converters instead of the motor-alternator sets.
If it doesn't reset, there's nothing the crew can do. The car
has to be shopped.
They're all MA. The LIRR has been replacing a few with inverters as of late.
What I'd love to know is why the heck the MA set refuses to start in the first place....
Just now on live TV News Channel 4 (NBC Local) reported track fire at Jamicia Station of LIRR with close in live shot of FLAMES comeing from around the tracks.
New reporter in the chopper "We don't know why trains are just running over these flames. There was a track fire and train that caught fire furhter west of this station but we don't know if this fire is related".
Geeze, the shot was of the switch heaters the LIRR use to keep the switches clear of ice and snow. I mean the way they reported this "fire" was totaly unprofessional. THe flames were only within two feet of the switch points and barely over the railhead.
Well the report did make me look up from the laptop and reading the Presidents Day field trip thread.
I know. How idiotic. You'd think that IF it presented a problem, FD would have NO problem putting the thing out.
That's hilarious....
When the post came up on my screen, only half showed, until I scrolled -- and that is the first thing I thought, gee, those fools are taling about the switch heaters!!!
Goes to show how f***ing stupid news reporters are nowadays, and NOT only when it comes to railroad operations.
So many times TV is so anxious to get on first and Live! that they don't check what they're about to say or put on the screen.
Here's my favorite screw-up for the week:
Going too fast. Too much stress on the dilithium crystals. Warp core breech. Explosion. End of mystery. Thanks CNN.
Local TV has the facts wrong more often then they have them right
maybe news people thank that track five is for far rockaway only and trakc 7 is for babylon only and there are no switches but just cross tie fires. go figure
jv
Some are much worse than others, FOX5 news for dummies comes to mind.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah, they make the rest of them look like MENSA members....
The "Saturday Night Live" news skit has tons more credibility than FAUX News!
Two words: Geraldo Rivera. 'Nuff said.
Local TV has the facts wrong more often then they have them right
Hey out here the Local TV gets things right!
If they say a Cow fell over, then a Cow fell over, I mean, what is so hard about reporting that a Cow fell over! Sheesh... if anything else happens out here, I'm sure it will make the TV too!
Elias ;-)
Another TV station had the shuttle breaking up at an altitude of 200,000 miles.
Eighteen times the speed of light? Hilarious!!! That's 3,348,000 miles an hour.....
Even faster -- at 186,000 miles per second, that would be times 18, and then times 3,600 seconds = 12,052,800 mph. Which, as someone else at the site I got this from pointed out, would also mean they were going back in time and theorhetically could have warned themselves of the impending disaster...
Someone should sue NASA for not including that procedure in the operator's manual.
No, they couldn't, because of the Grandfather paradox. If the crew were able to warn their earler selves, then the Columbia mission wouldn't have occurred at all. If time travel to the past were possible at all, I'd be riding Arnines down CPW every week...
Thanks for the correction....forgot to get it down to seconds -- I somehow left it at 186,000 MPH -- kinda slow, eh?
My goodness! Warp 18 in the 21st Century! Scotty would be so proud!
--Mark
...probably thanks in part to that transparent metal Mr. Scott passed along in Star Trek IV...
Warp speed is not 1 to 1 with the speed of light. If it were the speeds would still be way to slow. Different people peg the definition of "warp n" to be O(cn^2, c^n or cn^n).
Some stations were also reporting that they were at an altitude of 200,000 miles (instead of feet)
Hehehe, that would have put them in spitting distance of the moon at 238,000 miles away....
So according to them, Columbia was 4/5 of the way to the moon, travelling at hyperrelativistic speeds. But because of time dilation, Columbia should not crash and burn for another 16 years...Ain't our media grand?
Well sometimes the gas lines for the point heaters fracture and you get something of an "Eternal Flame" effect in the 4 foot.
Hey, that's to sanitize the chute coming down from the toilets on the old cars.....
They almost had it correct. About 4:30 PM the LIRR was reporting a fire on the truck of one of their trains. The fire occurred at Merrilon Ave and delayed mainline service well beyond 6:30 PM. News 4 just took the LIRR info and added its usual slant. What can you expect from a station that hires Michelle marsh?
"What can you expect from a station that hires Michelle Marsh?"
Marsh as in marshmellow ?
Hello to All,
I haven't been on subtalk for about a month, because I needed a hiatus from posting and responding to messages (it gets tedious when you spend a good amount of time on here). But I'm refreshed and recharged, and ready for more subtalking. :-)
-Nick
I recently took a trip on the entire route of the Amtrak Carolinian, which runs from Penn Station to Charlotte, NC. I was visiting friends down there, and found this to be a cheaper alternative to flying. Normally the round-trip fare is $154, but I took advantage of the 25% off special, so I paid $115.50. I probably would have paid the same amount in gas money if I drove.
Each way took 14 hours. Through Washington DC, they use an electric engine, and also add some additional coaches to serve the Northeast Corridor. But then they take those cars off and switch to the diesel engine, since between Washington and Charlotte nothing is electrified. I didn't get any special coaches; they were the same as the acela regional cars (except without the refurbished "concept 2000" cars). The only thing that was different was the cafe menu, which had a BBQ sandwich and other southern delights. There were no sleeper cars, because the Carolinian does not run overnight (the train departs early in the morning and arrives at night). Another service called the Crescent has overnight service and therefore has sleeping cars (it stops at Charlotte, but does not terminate there).
The Carolinian is partially funded by the State of North Carolina. It began in 1990 when NC bought used equipment, and let Amtrak operate the service. When the train is in the state of NC, volunteers pass out pamphlets of all the towns the Carolinian goes through, and gives a good history of the towns, as well as some of the rail stations that are of historical value.
Overall, I had a great trip. Fourteen hours is a long time to spend on a train, but at least I was able to walk around (unlike driving or taking a bus). The train had a good amount of riders, but I was able to have a double seat to myself both ways. Also, the scenery was very nice; I enjoyed going over all the rivers, and the woods with all the pine trees. There are also several freight train yards and other freight trains that pass by throughout the trip. If you have the time to spare and need to go down south, I'd definitely recommend the Carolinian. -Nick
Another service called the Crescent has overnight service and therefore has sleeping cars (it stops at Charlotte, but does not terminate there).
The Crescent runs on a substantially different route than the Carolinian south of DC; it runs a more westerly route through Charlottesville, Virginia (rather than the easterly one through Richmond, VA and Rocky Mount, NC) before merging with the Carolinian route at Greensboro, NC.
The train had a good amount of riders, but I was able to have a double seat to myself both ways.
You got lucky. I've ridden it a number of times between Newark and Rocky Mount and have only once had a seat to myself. I tend to do better on one of the Silver Service trains (I'm only going to Rocky Mount - my North Carolina home is 25 miles west of there, out in the boonies, so I have a choice of four trains). But the Silver Service trains cost more - sometimes only slightly, but substantially more in snowbird season.
And I agree... it's a great ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info, I didn't know the Crescent ran more westerly in VA. Sounds like you've had some good experiences with Amtrak's routes down south, even if you have to share the seat next to you. -Nick
Very much so. I've been riding that route for many years, but especially the past seven; my home is near Bunn, North Carolina but my job (along with a second house) has been in New Jersey since January 1996. I could easily drive it, in a lot less time - door-to-door driving takes me about 8.5 hours (my wife makes it in under 8, I drive slow), whereas the entire door-to-door trip via train 91, the Silver Star, runs a bit over twelve, assuming Amtrak is on time - but I prefer to ride when time allows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Before noon today, President Bush ordered the terror alert be raised from yellow (elevated) to orange (high), due to specific threats. These threats include, but are not limited to subway systems throughout the United States. Other targets include hotels, sports arenas, and apartment buildings. -Nick
New York City has been CONTINUOUSLY on "ORANGE" alert since 9/11/2001. Greater consideration is now being given to "soft", or easy-to-kill, targets and this includes subways. I put out the usual memo at work today:
"All members of the service shall excercise extreme caution when responding to and at the scene of all assignments. Be alert to your environment and all individuals at or approaching the scene. If safety concerns arise, request Police and a supervisor, or any other resources as may be needed to render the scene safe. At NO time shall members of the service endanger themselves unnecessarily when operating at the scene of any assignment."
I think it bears repeating here for railfans because it says, "don't stop your usual activities, just BE CAREFUL and USE YOUR HEAD." All railfans should CONTINUE to enjoy our subways and trains, just with a little more prudent awareness of who and what are going on around them.
Remember, the day we stop our ordinary activities and pleasures, is the day OBL wins...
(All railfans should CONTINUE to enjoy our subways and trains, just with a little more prudent awareness of who and what are going on around them. Remember, the day we stop our ordinary activities and pleasures, is the day OBL wins...)
My wife and two little girls are scheduled to take the subway to Times Square to a Broadway show. I expect they'll go, but I'll feel a little sick inside until they return. And I resent it.
You're RIGHT to resent it. Sadly, this is the tenor of our time. But even in these dark times, if we are to prevail we must persist. I don't like the climate of fear that's been forced upon us any more than the next man. To overcome the likes of OBL we mustn't permit him to dictate the aspects of our lives. Your family's right to freedom from fear (one of FDR's Four Freedoms) is too important for terrorists to take away so easily. That extends to their being able to travel as they please.
Just remember that their (and your) chances of being hurt in an automobile accident are far higher than of being hurt by terrorists.
The New York Metro area has lost more people to car accidents than to terrorists since 9/10/01 (and for the country as a whole the ratio is nearly 20 to 1).
And Hit-And_Run incident in Brooklyn Recently where 25-year-old drug addicted speeding down Brooklyn Street tooked the lives of an infant and two mothers anc critically injured another infant and left the scene . I mean, the guy's SUV send the stroller with an in infants on it into the air. This was on yesterday's New York Post. It was awful.
My prayer have gone out to that little girl who fighting for her life in hospital with life-threatening injuries.
My prayer have gone out to that little girl who fighting for her life in hospital with life-threatening injuries.
A boy, actually.
No, it was a 10 month old boy that pronounced dead on the arrival to the hospital and 10 months old girl named Ricky was in critical condition. Geez, this is such an awful tragedy.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_020603_hitnrunfolo.html#
Yeah, especially here in Nasty county. There are alot of Big SUV's around here, and if youre in a car and they hit you, you're dead meat.
If I had a loved one, I'd worry more about them driving in their car than riding the subway into NYC.
You can probably reduce the risk to virtually nill by riding during off peak times and riding in the last car. Terrorists would want to strike at the most crowded time and in a position that could do the most damage post explosion. The front or middle of the train poses the greatest chance of derailment.
My wife and two little girls are scheduled to take the subway to Times Square to a Broadway show. I expect they'll go, but I'll feel a little sick inside until they return. And I resent it.
Just repeat the following:
There is nothing to fear.
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
End of discussion.
I would worry more about someone driving a car to the local shopping center. With all those big SUV's out there, its quite a scary experience (riding in a car, that is).
Esp in a Mini Cooper or Celica. Those things are just TOO small!
Leave it to you to equate SUVs with terroism. Give it a rest, it's tired.
Peace,
ANDEE
Three friends and relatives of mine have died violent deaths. One was killed by an SUV. None were killed by terrorists.
(Three friends and relatives of mine have died violent deaths. One was killed by an SUV. None were killed by terrorists. )
I can only think of one friend or relative who died a violent death. He died at the WTC.
Obviously you have not observed the way most SUV's are driven.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't like SUVs or the way most of them are driven at all. It's the constant carping, by some, that gets tiring.
Peace,
ANDEE
My personal gripe with SUVs is the way they block the view when I'm parked next to them in a 45- or 90-degree parking space and am trying to back out (but pickup trucks create the same problem). But because of what's available nowadays for large families to buy, don't expect the vehicles to vanish anytime soon.
The reason SUVs got so popular, of course, was due to the "law of unintended consequences" that came out of the CAFE standards the federal government put in back in the 1970s. CAFE applied to cars and station wagons, but not to pickups or vans, which were considered for more business than personal use when the law was enacted. It took a while, but once the Chrysler Corp. figured out that if they put a smaller version of the standard commerical van on a pickup platform and offered it for sale, they could market it as a pickup-type vehicle (same body frame) and offer families with more than one child a larger space than a conventional station wagon at a lower price, since it didn't have to meet the same fuel economy ratings as station wagons did.
Nowadays, seeing a station wagon on the road is about as common a sight as seeing the R-110 A or B in regular service. There has been talk of revising the CAFE rules to include SUVs, but any politician who does that will face the wrath of families with two, three, four or more kids who have no other family vehicle options right now. The only way to get those people out of SUVs would be to give the car companies a tax break for producing station wagons with higher fuel economy, so that those could be built at lower costs than the SUVs and give family vehicle buyers another option.
Nowadays, seeing a station wagon on the road is about as common a sight as seeing the R-110 A or B in regular service. There has been talk of revising the CAFE rules to include SUVs, but any politician who does that will face the wrath of families with two, three, four or more kids who have no other family vehicle options right now. The only way to get those people out of SUVs would be to give the car companies a tax break for producing station wagons with higher fuel economy, so that those could be built at lower costs than the SUVs and give family vehicle buyers another option.
Not all SUV's are created equal - or equally bad - when it comes to fuel economy. I have a smallish model, an Isuzu Rodeo, and it gets a bit over 20 mpg in mostly non-highway driving. That compares well to some "regular" cars. While it's true that there are many big hulking SUV models (e.g. Tahoes, Suburbans, Excursions, Navigators etc.) with atrocious fuel economy, there also are many models even smaller than my Rodeo (Santa Fes, Sorrentos, Vitaras, etc.) with presumably better fuel economy.
"I think it bears repeating here for railfans because it says, "don't stop your usual activities, just BE CAREFUL and USE YOUR HEAD." All railfans should CONTINUE to enjoy our subways and trains, just with a little more prudent awareness of who and what are going on around them."
Well said, Jay. My post was not meant to scare people, just to make them alert. Go about your plans, but if you see something suspicious don't hesitate to report what you saw. In other words, let the police decide whether you have credible info or not. -Nick
For those of you who are uninformed, the terror alert system works inversely to Bush's approval rating. As W's approval goes down the terror alert status goes up in an effort to activate the knee-jerk herd mentality latent in most sheep American Citizens.
The Iraq attack is closer, some attempt at retaliation is more likely once that happens, therefore the terror alert goes up (and goes hand in hand with the arrests of the Alegerians made in England and other Eurpoean countries recently with the ricin seizure in the London mosque.
Is the orange alert CYA on the administration's part? Yes in part. They have no solid evidence of any action planned in the U.S., but the current buildup in Iraq makes a counterattack by radical Muslims more likely at this time and they don't want to get caught saying nothing if something does happen. Is the alert totally BS and just being done to boost Bush's approval rating? If you really believe that I've got a hole in downtown Manhattan I'd like to sell you...
Since W, 9/11 and this whole Iraq thing I have raised my cinicism level to "Road Flare"
Umm, I don't think thats why terror alerts are raised, Mike. There are concerns with the possibility of War in iraq, as well as the Muslim pilgrimage to Hajje. -Nick
Nick, relax. If Hey Jersey Mike says that most Intelligence gathering agencies in the free world are wrong, then I'd say we should all relax. After all, Hey Jersey Mike is a bright guy.
lol, point taken :-) -Nick
Yawn. I guess there are a bunch of paper-shufflers in Washington who don't have enough real work to keep themselves busy, and therefore have to make up false alarms.
Aww man,they gotta cut the damn crap already. Terroist threats here,terroist threats there,I mean cmon! Nothing happens anyway!They're taking this security shit way to damn serious and it's really pissing me off.Look how us train buff's can't even take pictures of a train or any station in the subway anymore without being questioned by TA personnel or the damn stupid cops themselves! Then they tell us to go take a hike and to not do it again.For a country full of freedom,we sure seem to have lost some of it since 9/11.It's been almost 2 years already,tone it down with the security shit already cause I tell ya one thing,I'll keep on taking pictures of whatever I want and whenever I want.Nobody tells this gal what to do unless they wanna get a royal martial arts beatdown.Even if Mayor Doomsburg can't tell me what to do.I'd tell the old fossil to go rot in hell.
Ahem...sorry.But I just had to let that frustration out somehow.
Nobody is saying to cancel plans, just to be alert. For the most part, this upgrade is for police and other security officials anyway. -Nick
For the most part, this upgrade is for police and other security officials anyway.
Which means more taxpayer-paid overtime. Of course, the taxpayers have less money to spend because each such alert causes the stock market to fall.
The NYC Subways are a specific target now.
Read this: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/68717.htm
---Brian
(Should I go out now to take photos of the (3) train at 125th St on the 1/9?)
Based on their past history, I would take this very seriously. The terrorists were obsessed with the World Trade Center, and after their bombing attempt in 1993 failed to bring it down they spent the next eight years plotting a new attack.
It's been six years now since their plot to bomb the Pacific Street-Atlantic Ave. subway station was foiled by city and federal officials. No pun intended, but these jerks seem to have a one-track mind when it comes to targets -- when they focus on something, like the WTC, which they considered a symbol not only of New York, but of America itself, or in this case the subway, they don't give up on that target after one failure.
Whether or not the same group of people living in the Journal Square/Atlantic Ave. areas are the prime suspects here remains to be seen. But if I were the NYC police and the FBI, I would be keeping a close watch on those areas based on past experience.
Journal Square? That in New Jersey where PATH is. Or is there more than one?
Take Pride,
Brian
Journal Square is where the mosque (with blind cleric mastermind) was located that officials later determined was the focal point of the consperitors involved in the first World Trade Center bombing, and IIRC, there was also a later connection reported to the attempted bombing of the BMT Pacific Street station, though the ones arrested there lived nearby in the Muslim section of western Atlantic Ave.
Given the narrow focus on targets these people seem to have, if they want to attack the New York City subway, they will probably go after the New York City subway and not even think about PATH. But if I were the Port Authority and the N.J. state and federal officials, I would be keeping an eye out in Jersey City as well right now.
I'm afraid that the terrorists know they can't destroy the United States, so they have decided to destroy one city. It's as if they know that the rest of the state, and the rest of the country, is likely to abandon us if the going gets tough.
Before 9/11, I'd say the rest of the country did have a "who cares about New York?" attitude, but the WTC attack was so horrific, that's not the case anymore (given enough years of requests for rebuilding funds from the feds with no sign of any rebuilding going on, and the cyncial attitude of non-New Yorkers about the city will probably return, but that's not the case yet).
(Before 9/11, I'd say the rest of the country did have a "who cares about New York?" attitude, but the WTC attack was so horrific,
that's not the case anymore (given enough years of requests for rebuilding funds from the feds with no sign of any rebuilding going
on, and the cyncial attitude of non-New Yorkers about the city will probably return, but that's not the case yet).
Don't believe what they say. Follow what they do. And don't pay too much attention to the hundreds of thousands of people all over the country, and all over the world, to reach out to help New York in its hour of need. New York has always had friends all over, but they are a minority.
I'll wait until the funds can be counted. I'd like to see a study, similar to those done in the past, on how much money New Yorkers are required to pay into the federal and state governments in taxes and fees, and how much we get out in spending. I'd like to see it done for two periods -- FY 1999 to 2001, when NY's economy was hot and prior to the disaster; and FY 2002 to FY 2004, when NY was in terrible shape and after the disaster.
My guess is that NY will be paying in more than it gets out even in the latter period. And that it was poorer than average, and thus theoretically deserving of more help, even in the former period. The 2000 census is conveninently available to chronicle this.
That's no surprise to me however I'm not going to be scared and that's THE BOTTOM LINE! I will continue to ride the subways like I do now; the terrorists want us to be scared but New Yorkers won't stand for their shit. BTW, about taking pictures, JUST GO! Don't let this stop you from what you love to do [taking pics that is].
Let's assume there's a terrorist plot aimed at the NYC subways.
I contend it's still safer to take the subway than to walk or take a taxi. Every year reckless and careless drivers kill hundreds of New Yorkers.
And the violent death rate from all causes (conventional homicide, accidents, terrorism) is higher in rural areas than it is in NYC, even including 9/11/01.
I don't say we should ignore the threat. If you see an abandoned suitcase in Penn Station, of course you should get the police. But the odds are still better in NYC than elsewhere.
Perhaps in light of this article it would be best not to take photos in underground stations for a while, after all it could lead to a great deal of hassle couldn't it? Perhaps photographers are best confining their activities to more remote, above ground stations for now. I'm pretty sure that if you do this you should be able to continue taking pictures as before, with little or no aggravation from other passengers or the authorities.
(And the violent death rate from all causes (conventional homicide, accidents, terrorism) is higher in rural areas than it is in NYC,
even including 9/11/01.)
Not so, not even by a long shot. FBI statistics are available on where the violence is, so this is not a matter of debate. Rural America has a much lower violence rate than NYC, which in turn has a lower violence rate than most metro areas. Of course, when you do get violence in rural areas it can be particularly horrific, with one of these gun nuts going off on a rampage.
Moreover, there is a pronounced regional aspect to violence. Most violence and crime is in the south and west; New York City was an exception to this for a time, with southern-like levels of crime, but this has now changed. Think of all those gun nut wacko rural killing sprees. Not many of them in New England, the Great Lakes area, or New York and PA were there? They were in Arkansas, Georgia, Texas, Colorodo, Kentucky, etc. This difference in violence goes back a couple of centuries.
I specifically included accidents as part of violence. The FBI doesn't include accidents in violent deaths. When you include accidents, NYC is a lot lower than most of the rest of the country.
When you include accidents, NYC is a lot lower than most of the rest of the country.
Heavy urban traffic does have its benefits. It keeps speeds relatively low, so crashes aren't as severe as they are in most other places.
The NYC Subways are a specific target now.
Yawn. More "terrorist" nonsense. How boring.
I wouldn't alter my lifestyle over terrorism, but given their mindset and their past facisnation with attacking the BMT in dotwntown Brooklyn -- something akin to Homer Simpson's facination for doughnuts -- I wouldn't completely toss out the idea if I were local officials (and the surviving members or any terror cell out there may not be smart enough to come up with a plan other than the one that was in their 1996 "Death to America" playbook).
Yawn. More "terrorist" nonsense. How boring.
Especially since it's only in the Post. The Daily News like to scare its readership just as much, and they only point out landmarks, parks, and synagogues as likely targets. I'd guess it's an attempt by the Post's controlling interests to get us out of the subways and into our SUVs.
These warnings are definitely reaching the 'Boy who cried wolf' phase. We are warned that attacks are 'imminent', but are not given any more specific information. We are told to be 'vigilant', but not what to look for. What the hell are we supposed to do with that information? Either give us information we can use, or stop scaring us.
Personally, I am resigned to the belief that other attacks on U.S. soil will likely occur. The Israelis have the best intelligence services in the world, and that has not been enough to prevent the horrific suicide bombing attacks in that country. I can only hope that the appropriate authorities are doing the best job that they can and preventing as many of these terrorist attacks as possible, but I am not naive enough to believe that they can or will be 100 percent effective. If bad people are determined to do terrible things, the odds are that some of them will go undetected. We must be strong as a people and as a country, and resolve not to let such events get us down. They can hurt some of us, but the only way they can destroy us as a country is if we let them.
Jim D.
The Post may be a rag, but this is no joke.
They can hurt some of us, but the only way they can destroy us as a country is if we let them.
We're already letting them destroy us. I dread seeing what will happen 12 hours from now, when the stock markets open for Monday's trading.
I'd rephrase that ... we're HELPING them destroy us, between our politicians crying wolf (after all, "had this been a REAL alert, you would have been instructed where to tune for further information" as they used to say in the Conelrad days) and getting people all worked up with nothing to go by instead of simply alerting the authorities.
So let's do what the post and our politicos advise, MOVE OUT OF NEW YORK CITY NOW and you'll be safe. :(
Sorry for the attitude, but this is EXACTLY what they're pulling. I can understand Al Qaeda wanting this, but cannot FATHOM what the motivation of the regime in DC is for doing this.
I'd better explain myself - if the threat were SO severe, where are the federal troops? All the "chatter" out of DC is that New York is the target. Are there fighter jets overhead? Are there troops with detection gear in the subways? Of course not. If this WAS for real, shouldn't there be? Oh that's right. New York is a BLUE state. Fook'em. :(
In my view, that Huffington wacko has a point. Everytime you gas up a guzzler you are helping them destroy us. Not that SUVs are inherently bad. They are fine as long as they are carrying six or more passengers or a lot of freight. But how different recent history would be if we weren't down on our knees for the oil.
Al Qaeda hit the right place. In addition to being the city where all races and religions are welcome (the opposite of their exterminationist worldview) we are of the developed world's more affluent places (I refer to Manhattan) that uses the least oil (I refer here to the whole city).
True, but then again what they lose out in vehicles, they DO sorta make up for in the oil and gas used to fuel all these generators upstate. But it IS interesting how the targets they've chosen so far (including that BMT station they almost got) have an awful lot of innocent Muslims there as well. Makes you wonder how much they CARE about Islam whan all's said and did.
I always wondered about that, too, because the FBA/Atlantic Avenue station is right in the heart of the biggest Islamic community in Brooklyn!
Yeah, I'm NOT part of the "black helicopter squad" but it SURE does make you wonder sometimes ...
>>> but it SURE does make you wonder sometimes ... <<<
Why? The radical Moslems who plant bombs consider their moderate co-religionists the worst kind of blasphemous sinners who deserve nothing but death.
Tom
>>> but it SURE does make you wonder sometimes ... <<<
Why? The radical Moslems who plant bombs consider their moderate co-religionists the worst kind of blasphemous sinners who deserve nothing but death.
Tom
Like I said, just don't make any sense ...
Why are the terrorists so quick to commit suicide? Let's see now:
No pre-marital sex
No booze.
No topless bars.
No Playboy channel.
No organized sports of any kind, to speak of.
Hooters. "What is this Hooters of which you speak!"
Sand everywhere.
Ever fish at an oasis?
Rags for clothes and hats.
Eating with your right hand only 'cause you wipe your butt with your left.
Constant wailing from the guy next door, no wait, is that music? can't tell !!
Bar-B-Q cooked over camel dung.
Prayer four times a day.
The women have to wear baggy dresses and veil's.
Oh, and by the way, when you die it all gets better!
Does it? I have it on pretty good authority that what they sow, they also reap. The afterlife is in all probabilty worse than the life they led, except there's nobody else around for all eternity.
Since they don't seem to follow "Thou shall not kill", which tends to get the Man Upstairs somewhat upset.
Rod Serling wrote an episode of The Twilight Zone that had Hell as a place where you can have everything you ever wanted - except another person for all eternity.
BTW,I don't subscribe to the Bedsheet club.
Agreed ... I just can't get over that so many fail to learn from the cycle of hatred. Doesn't improve any if you believe in it. :(
Oh, and by the way, when you die it all gets better!
When life sucks, clergy make up eschatological fairy tales so that people won't give up on life.
When that doesn't work, they make up eschatological fairy tales so that people DO.
Apparently, they picked the Atlantic Ave./Pacific St. complex for their first terror attack attempt because it was the closest one to their "safe house" nearby. Apparently not all those involved with the 1996 plot had ideas of immediately meeting those 72 virgins (or 72 rasins, depending on which interpretation of the Koran you believe) when they carried out the bombing, and wanted someplace they could quickly run back to and hide out.
Were a new attack to involve more "virign hunters" who dream of afterlife nookie the same way your average 20 something New York thinks of a weekend of clubbing, then any major stop in the system could be at risk, since they wouldn't be concerned about going anywhere after they blow themselves up. But if they want to stay alive and plan some escape method, I'm sure the police and FBI already have drawn up lists of the mostly likely places for "safe houses" to be located, and the mostly likely nearby stations that could be targeted.
I have a friend who switched to gas heat just to spite the Middle East. I think if some of the power were taken away from the American car companies, we could cut our dependancy on oil a bit. I'm sure they could make a super-fuel efficient car if they wanted to. The problem is we keep buying these over priced gas guzzlers. Small, compact hybrid cars are the way to go. Unless you have a large family, there is no reason to own an SUV.
Now, one commercial that ticks me off is when they insinuate that a kid buying weed is supporting terrorism. That's a bunch of bull, but I don't want to go off topic here.
It's the POST ... why on earth folks READ that piece of crap is beyond me, but THANKS Uncle Rupert for printing what WASN'T in the federal bulletin. I guess the POST never realized that New York was already at orange alert, nor that NYC wasn't raised to RED.
Yikes! But thanks for this post. Of course we should all go on about our daily lives, but definitely be alert. -Nick
It's curious that the New York POST is the *ONLY* source of this "underground" connection, hasn't been seen anywhere else. MORE fear-mongering? :(
Actually we *DID* receive a teletype notification about the subway and other possible targets from NYPD on Friday morning. The Daily News reported subways as possible targets in Saturday's paper, but as part of an overall report, not a headline by itself. Leave it to Rupert's rag to scare the ridership to sell papers...
NYPD might have identified the subways (since the city was ALREADY at orange, makes sense) but the FEDERAL bulletin did NOT mention subways at all, focusing more on hotels, houses of worship, and retail stores.
If there is a serious risk to the subways, you'd THINK that they'd be issuing oxygen masks to RTO personnel so that a gas attack didn't jam up the trains because crews passed out. After all, the POST added "underground" to the federal bulletin and that wasn't there either.
Gasoline prices went up about ten cents here in the past week. Something had to be done to scare people away from switching to mass transit.
Why *DO* people buy that damned paper? :)
Seems more like a Chartreuse Alert...
Have they actually tested the cars on the 1? 'Cause i keep seeing them signed up for 1 service.
I've heard that they have one or two running from only 215th Street to South Ferry but this is only in the early morning rush hour. Last night I saw it assigned on the 1 line stored at East 180th st yard. Going to 215 st.
I once saw a R142 signed up as a 3 train to New Lots Av sitting on the middle track at 149St-GC on the 4 platform.
I saw a train of R142s signed up for the 1 at East 180th Street both yesterday and today.
I imagine that that R142 is the #5 train that starts off on the Westside in the moring.Actually there is to runs.
AMI
Before 9/15/02, there was a train of R-62A's based in 240th Street Yard that ran from 242nd via local to Flatbush, then ran from Flatbush via Lex express to E180. It was typically signed as a 5 train both ways. I don't know what it did in the afternoon rush, but it somehow got back to 240th Street Yard. In any case, it doesn't exist anymore.
At 86/Broadway:
At Times Square:
At Hoyt:
(all taken 9/12/02)
Nonsense. The 1/9 runs only R-62A's based in 240th Street (Van Cortlandt) Yard, never R-142's. Barring GO's, every single 1/9 train, without exception, runs from 242nd Street to South Ferry and back. I don't think there have been any scheduled short-turns on the line since 1989, when alternate rush hour trains terminated at 137th Street.
Someone was playing with the R-142 signs, that's all. When I passed Unionport a week and a half ago, I saw a train signed as a 7 to Flushing.
I guess a couple have been running now on the #1, but this is news to me. The only time I've seen them run on the #1 was on tv...when Pataki rode the train to mark the re-opening of the subway stations in lower Manhattan. -Nick
That was a car from the #2 line. It was 6560 I think.And the conductor was making maual annoucements.
AMI
There are no R142s on the 1. The R142s are only on the 2/5 lines. Yes there was a R142 signed up as, 1: BROADWAY LOCAL TO 215St up in E.180St yard yesterday. That was probably left by someone messing with the programs.
Da Beastmaster
Do the washes at the yards have scrubbers too? Some of these trains look like they can use a good scrub down, especially the ones on the 4. Have they ever heard of soap and water?
Water + Cold = Ice.
Ice scratches!
And that's Transit and Weather Together
as a side note, if you dissolve anything in water (water+salt, for example), it freezes at a colder temperature. That's the whole idea behind salting sidewalks and stuff. The MTA could use the same idea to wash cars if they wanted to (obviously with something other than salt).
Ah, for the good old days, prior to the mid 1960s, when most subway cars were never washed and, no matter what color they were painted when they were delivered, within a few months where a coated with a dull charcoal gray layer of subway grime.
-- Ed Sachs
At a recent forum, a speaker from the union said that an extension to the west side of Manhattan would impair the operation of the *existing* line:
"Joseph Rappaport, a former policy analyst with the New York Public Interest Research Group and the Straphangers' Campaign and currently with the Transport Workers Union, said there have been no studies to show the benefits of a No. 7 line extension. He contended the extended track would have curves that would force trains to go slowly and result in fewer trains per hour on the line which links Flushing and Shea Stadium with Manhattan."
Is this true? It seems that the 7 does fine with the turns through Long Island City.
he may be right,i herd about the extension,the proposed plan is too
exstend the 7 line to the west side of manhattan(the javits center)the
the curves may force the train slow down,and by that fewer trains per
hour isn,t good for service.
til next time
So long as the new termial was build minus bumper blocks, the same way the current terminal is set up, I don't think the number of TPA would be adversly affected, so long as an increase in the Corona fleet goes along with the extension.
What I do find surprising is someone formerly with Russianoff's group and now working with the TWU would come out in opposition to extending subway lines. Did he say anything else at the fourm as to what he would be for in terms of line extensions (Second Ave., eastern Queens, etc.)?
he didn,t say anything about the 2 av extensions or any others.
til next time
"What I do find surprising is someone formerly with Russianoff's group and now working with the TWU would come out in opposition to extending subway lines."
That surprised me too. They do support Second Ave., and feel the 7 will hurt it financially. A subjective argument we will hear a great deal of in the future. The pro-7 side says SAS is a state project and the 7 is a city project.
I focus here on the technical argument, as it seemed to be objectively verifiable. Or not.
My guess is the Olympic bid for 2012 will probably go a long way towards deciding the priorities (if any) for new subway construction. If the IOC goes with the New York bid, then the 7 extension to the new stadium becomes the key link in the Olympic transportation system and gets put on fast track. If some other country wins the 2012 Games (which if the IOC was voting right now I'd say was likely), then the 7 extension vs. Second Ave. debate would be more balanced, with Second Ave. looking like a smarter project once everyone figures out just exactly what the LIRR East Side Access to Grand Central (that's mentioned in a nearby thread) would do to the Lex.
Somer posters over at the Straphangers' said that if NYC would win the honor of hosting the 2012 games, there is no need for a 7 extension but the SAS would suffice just by itself. Does this make any sense?
Is this true? It seems that the 7 does fine with the turns through Long Island City.
The devil is in the details of the new terminal's configuration. The key is how quickly trains can clear the crossover.
Assume that the crossover is before the platform as at the present Time Square terminal. A straight crossover switch can be designed that permits 15 mph operation. The crossover is approximately 100 feet long, then a 561 foot long train would take approximately 30 seconds to clear the interlocking. Assume also that it takes 5 seconds for a switch to move from one position to the other. This would limit terminal capacity to 50 tph.
There are three strategies that TA designers have used to substantially reduce this capacity. The first is to reduce the speed that trains can go over the interlocking; the second is to increase the effective length of the interlocking; the third is to use switches that take longer times to move from one position to another.
The maximum speed over the interlocking can be reduced, if there is some other hazard that causes trains to operate at reduced speed over the interlocking. The most popular is to place a bumper block at the end of the station platform. This restricts the average speed of the train to approximately 7 mph while the train is passing over the interlocking. This is the TA's most popular method for reducing terminal capacity. The travel time over the interlocking becomes 63 seconds and the terminal capacity becomes 26 tph.
A second method would be to place a curve just before the crossover switch. If there were a 10 mph curve, enforced by a WD signal, then the time for a train to travel over the interlocking would be increased to 45 seconds. This would reduce the termial capacity to 36 tph. Perhaps, these are the curves to which Mr. Rappaport was referring
A more recent strategy has been to increase the effective length of the crossover by placing it a few hundred feet before the terminal. This strategy has been effectively deployed with the Jamaica Center terminal. The crossover is located 300 feet south of the platform area. This increases the effective crossover length from 100 feet to 400 feet, thus making a 600 foot train travel 1000 feet to clear the crossover rather than 700 feet. This increases the time to clear the interlocking from 30 to 45 seconds at 15 mph and reduces terminal capacity to 36 tph.
The TA has also found it necessary to replace fast acting switches with those that take longer to change position. The 5 second movement is now closer to 10 seconds. This reduces 50 tph to 45 tph, 26 tph to 24 tph and 36 tph to 32 tph.
The abovementioned methods are structural; there are many more operational strategies the TA has employed to reduce terminal capacity. The most far reaching, in terms of limiting capacity, has been at relay terminals. TA operations has managed to reduce relay terminal capacity to 15 tph, regardless of track architecture.
If they build a loop terminal with a straight platform(to avoid the need for gap fillers), they'll be better off. Times Square is a nightmare with crossovers. Sometimes, when I'm operating the local, my C/R gets starting lights, and he/she closes down and gives me indication. Yet, the leaving home signal is red over red, and an arriving express train is still crossing over.
An even better idea would be to have a loop terminal with two tracks. Simply have 1 tk split into 1a and 1b tracks with an island platform between the two tracks. One track could be established for express trains, the other for local.
"Sometimes, when I'm operating the local, my C/R gets starting lights, and he/she closes down and gives me indication. Yet, the leaving home signal is red over red, and an arriving express train is still crossing over."
That actually makes sense to me. This way you are able to leave as soon as the signal turns green. If the C/R waited for the signal to turn green before closing the doors, someone holding the doors could put you behind schedule. On the 7, that's sure to result in delays.
If they build a loop terminal with a straight platform(to avoid the need for gap fillers), they'll be better off.
You mean the type of terminal that Pataki is going to replace at a cost of $400 million?
If they build a loop terminal with a straight platform(to avoid the need for gap fillers), they'll be better off.
They might even dust off the plans for the upper level of Sands St.
and the one you alway forget the added safety block after the train crosses.
With the manual towers once they saw you were clear they could throw the iron now you have to be ablock or two past the reverse HB before the switches get thrown adding more time.
The 7 needs to do a Sao Paulo subway-style relay, I got off at a terminal station once and before I had time to get off the train, the train behind us was already pulling in on the other track. And by the time the other train's doors opened, my train was already departing in the opposite direction. Those switches are FAST.
So it's the terminal more than the turns.
So it's the terminal more than the turns.
Yes, by a factor of 2:1. Therminals affect both incoming and outgoing trains. Curves affect trains in a single direction.
That is not to say that curves cannot reduce maximum service levels. Usually, curves provide less of a reduction than stations because there is no dwell time. However, placing curves near stations can reduce maximum service levels. It takes a train approximately 30 seconds to stop in a station, 30 seconds to leave a station and 30 seconds of dwell time. This permits 90 second headways or 40 tph. Suppose sharp curves before and after the station increased the approach and departure times to 45 seconds each. This would reduce headways to 120 seconds or 30 tph. Think Grand Central on the Lex.
"It takes a train approximately 30 seconds to stop in a station, 30 seconds to leave a station and 30 seconds of dwell time."
But there's also 30 seconds or more after the rear of a train has completely left a station and before the front of the next train enters the station.
Perhaps there's a method of safe operation that doesn't require that additional interval, but if so NYCT hasn't found it.
Something to look for in the new extension designs they will be working on. But it appears premature to state that curves -- as a rule -- reduce capacity.
But there's also 30 seconds or more after the rear of a train has completely left a station and before the front of the next train enters the station.
Perhaps there's a method of safe operation that doesn't require that additional interval, but if so NYCT hasn't found it.
No, there is no safety compromise. Stand near the rear of any platform that does not have a curve leaving the station. Time the interval it takes from the time a train starts moving until ALL the signals IN the station turn from red to yellor or green. It will be slightly less than 30 seconds. This means that all the signals before the station are green. If a train were available at the end of the station, then it could enter it, stop, and then start up again.
That's the difference between 30 tph and 40 tph. The signal system will permit it. The signal system guarantees the safety margins. A signal will not be yellow or green, if the train could not stop before hitting a train in front.
"A more recent strategy has been to increase the effective length of the crossover by placing it a few hundred feet before the terminal."
In addition, they can increase the effective length of the interlocking by placing a giant buffer zone around it. If an L train bound for 8th Ave is stopped at 6th Ave, it is held there until the departing train has cleared the interlocking. Only once the departing train is well on its way to 6th Ave is the arriving train allowed to move.
The result is that the interlocking is off limits for several minutes for each train that passes through it.
Is this true? It seems that the 7 does fine with the turns through Long Island City.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 does great with turns in LIC. For example, there's a switch just north of Queensboro where M tk begins. You are allowed to cross that switch at 20mph. You can also take the curve on M tk just north of 46th at 35mph or more. Only real slow spot is that sharp curve between 45th road and Queensboro both n/b and s/b.
It's too bad that sharp turn can't be demolished in favor of a smoother, faster curve. Unfortunately, the buildings in the surrounding area prevent it. This is why I favor one of Elias' plans to reroute the 7 along Queens Blvd. Very efficient.
The President's support is a huge boost to this project, my bet is it gets the funding.
http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/54163.htm
Of interest to our Boston fans, I just saw these scrap photos of Boston El Cars on eBay.
The images are big enough to view clearly in your browser.
--Mark
Wow...neat photos! Thanks for the post, Mark. :-) -Nick
Those were the 0700-series cars from the Cambridge-Dorchester Line (now the Red Line). The interior photo was taken of one of the four cars modified in the late 1940's for a proposed South Shore extension.
Jim D.
Yesterday (Thursday) at about 8:00pm, I saw from my L train a A&B Train entering Linden Shop with five R142's hooked up. I could not get the numbers from the cars becouse I was to far away. This was the first train over the track under the L since the snow started. I could tell becauce on my first two trips the tracks were still covered with snow. So be on the look out sometime late Friday night for the trainsfer
Robert
Hello all, I plan to resurrect my field trips from 3 years ago. So far I have 3 trips planned. Dates TBD. I am looking to see what interest there is before I go ahead and make a date.
1) Coney Island Yard tour. We did this on 10/29/00 and had a nice turnout. Any SubTalkers that were there can attest that it was a fun day for all. This tour would be limited to 25 on a first come, first served basis. No charge!
2) Walking the Rockaway line Starting in Rego Park and making our way to Ozone park. No limit but 15-20 is good.
3) Walking the Staten Island North Shore Branch. Again, no limit but 15-25 are good.
So... Here is your chance. Put in your 2 cents.
I have received emails from people about doing another Polo Grounds Shuttle tour. (We did three already: 12/99, 01/00, 02/00) I am sorry to report that the tunnel has been sealed by 4 foot thick, reinforced concrete walls at both ends. If anyone wants to bring a jackhammer........
I am definitely interested in Field Trip 2, walking the Rockaway line... Count me in!
I'll walk the Rockaway Line, too. Hopefully I'll have the day off!
I'll be interested in going on the Coney Island Shop tour.
Same here!
#4489 N Sea Beach Local
So would I provided I were in town...
I'm up for all four; I'll see if I can borrow a hoe ram for the Polo Grounds trip :).
Mark, if the CIY tour is after April 15th count me in....Based on your informative announcements on the December 8th Redbird Trip, I'm sure it will be a very interesting day with a lot of knowledge being shared.
Count me in for the Coney Island Shop Tour!
Mark:
Well, I'll join my fellow Branfordites for the CIY tour,
provided it's after April 30th and does not conflict with
a BERA event.
;\) Sparky
Yeah me too, I enjoyed the CI tour and would definately look forward to do it again. Would be even better with a date! :-0
I'd definitely go for walking the Rockaway line.
They sound interesting, but we've done all three (plus the PGS-twice). How about something new? For those of you who have not been on any of these tours, now is your chance. Be prepared to walk.
Count me in. Which one? Do you really need to ask?
~TRK
Just let us know when to CI trip is, and I will try to make it
I did a walking tour of the Rockaway branch about 5 years ago with some Queens Historical Group. The trip only went from Rego Park to about Yellowstone Blvd or so, but was very interesting. I would love to do it again. I have done some parts on my own, with a friend.
Lot's of interesting things along the way.....
One thing to keep in mind though. Summer is not the best time for the Rockaway walk. A friend and I were planning on walking from the Montauk Branch onto the Rockaway Branch in the summer once, and the Rock ROW was infested with poison ivy there (I assume it would be in other areas along the ROW also), so we had to cancel the idea. In the winter or early spring, late fall that wouldn't be as much of a problem.
cool,i would love to go on the CIY tour,always wanted to see that yard
upcolse,and to get a chance to meet some subtalkers,when is the trip,
hope it,s on a weekend and in the afternoon too.hope ya let us know on
the date of that CIY trip soon.
til next time
I'd love to go on the Rockaway line tour again.
I'm there, especially the Coney Island tour -- but not if you're planning them for Saturdays.
Hey, Mark! If you do the abandoned Rockaway Line -- don't forget to bring the chainsaw!!! LOL!
All I really needed was a machete and some dynamite when we did it for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Mark, I'm curious, were you involved in the LIST-NRHS tour of Coney Island yard back in April of 2000? If so, Wow, that tour is not to be missed!
Where's the sign-up sheet?
Advanced right to know, welding 3, Redbird salvage. Pay for your own pizza...unca Fred experienced extreme cuisine in the lunchroom. At lunchtime, you have the choice of feeding your face, exploring the CI museum or going across the street bowling. Pass the exam for Car Inspector and you get to meet unca Allen at PS 248 sub school, a man due everyones respect that I chose 'OnTheJuice' in honor of. I'd like to go on the trip too...my buddy Sam works Sundays and spent a whole day on a R142 sim trip down there. Just bring extra napkins because the pizza is kinda oily. I was on official business with a supervisor and introduced to TA top brass...you don't want mosserela chunks hanging from your lip. CI Peter
I would go on the N Shore and Rock lines. Remember we're on Double Secret Ultra Yellow Alert so the cops will be especially wary.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well I won't be passing out TA vests but maybe a trip to a bike shop for a reflective vest wouldn't hurt.
Took the early train from Philly this morning and I'm posting from the Visitors Center. Sorry for being so touristy but I'm not in NYC often.
No problem. There is a video cafe on 42 Street between 7 and 8 Avenues. You might like to try there later this trip or your next trip.
See http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/08/nyregion/08REBU.html
(Sorry, I could look up the HTML for doing links but don't feel like it).
These are all useful items. But I can't help thinking that someone (flightless birds come to mind) said "The Feds have promised us $5 billion. Think up projects that add up to that much money. You can go slightly over the limit but whatever you do, don't come in under."
(These are all useful items. But I can't help thinking that someone (flightless birds come to mind) said "The Feds have promised us $5 billion. Think up projects that add up to that much money. You can go slightly over the limit but whatever you do, don't come in under.")
Yeah, it seems like a lot without either the commuter rail connections or the lower half of the Second Avenue Subway included. Clearly the PATH station must be rebuilt, and I like the idea of an underground walkway and depressing West Street -- more pedestrian connections is a good thing. I see Downtown as a pedestrian's paradise, with lots of pedestrian-only rights of way, plus ferries.
Still, I can't help but think that if graft and red tape were eliminated, $5 billion would be enough to build four tracks down to Lower Manhattan on Second Avenue from Grand Central (two for an express "super-subway" for commuter rail connections and two for the Second Avenue Subway), with the super-subway tracks extended through a new tunnel out to the LIRR Flatbush Avenue branch and out to Jamaica. Add on the upper Second Avenue, LIRR to GCT, MetroNorth to Penn and the Flushing Extension and you'd truly transform the city and region. Moreover, the super subway could be extended west out to Secaucus Transfer for an express transfer from NJT trains to Grand Central.
Looks like the prices are going up, and the ambitions are going down.
I was walking my dog along 50 St in Woodside around 11pm last night when I heard this train approaching. For a second I thought it was an Amtrak Acela or an HHP-8. WRONG! It was an M-7 for the LIRR. It was going E/B. I could not tell what the bright signs on the car said or what the car numbers were-too dark to see and was a block away from it. Also it was moving at quite a rate of speed.
They may look kinda phunky but they seemed to be pretty impressive.
Is this the 1st in service M-7 train to be sighted in the City Terminal Zone?
#7012 LIRR
Nope. I took the 1814 Hempstead train to Queens Village last night as well as last week. The crew said M-7s have been regular equipment on this train daily since Jan. 21. Also the 1653 from Hempstead to FBA is M-7 equipped. The 1814 leaves from FBA as does a Long Beach M-7 train a few minutes later. I wonder if the M-1s will get dumped into the sea like the Redbirds did?
"I wonder if the M-1s will get dumped into the sea like the Redbirds did?"
Not really, since there is no asbestos problem with the M-1's. It has been reported that Bombardier is supposed to take back retired M-1's. For what reason, I haven't the foggiest. A pair of retired M-1's were loaded onto flat cars and shipped to Mexico a couple of months ago. Why Mexico ? Don't know. Maybe Bombardier will rehab them and resell them to Cuba ? That would be a howl !
Bill "Newkirk"
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!
The M-7 out of Flatbush at that time is train #2076 - the 6:04 PM (LIRR dows not use a 24 hour clock)to Ronkonkoma. In leaves Jamaica around 6:23 PM and follows train 2072 into Ronkonkoma. It turns there and becomes train #5083 back to the city. 5083 is an equipment train that is now often used as a training train. It leaves Ronkonkoma any time after 8:30 PM........
Train 5053, I think you did a typo because there is no such train is 5083.
TD said that 5053 is an "equipment train". This means it is not a passenger train listed on public timetables, just a "lite" train getting into position for it's scheduled next trip (the next morning in this case). Train 5053 would be listed on employee timetables only.
Former Conservative (the main right-wing party in the UK) MP Matthew Parris puts forward his arguments to make London buses free in today's Times (moderate to right wing middle class UK newspaper).
That's really kind of odd. Sounds like the conservatives are trying to avoid paying for LUL's expensive upgrades. But it makes sense if we can use existing capacity rather than build new ones. That said, there is no doubt that trains are a nicer ride.
AEM7
........sort of. I just observed from my window that the 3 is using the 240St cars for the run btwn 137St and New Lots Ave. The 3 line is also using Livonia cars as well. I guess the uptown crews signing in at 137 are taking the cars from 137 yard and Bklyn crews are using Livonia cars.
Da Beastmaster
Those 3s are going out of service at 96th St northbound, but will originate out of 137th St going to Brooklyn. Several Livonia 3s spent the night in the middle at 103 and 110th Sts.
-Stef
Really? I know northbound, the 3s are local all the way. Southbound, I believe the 3s are local to Times Square.
Da Beastmaster
And the 2 is running express? That's almost my proposed revision to weekend service: 1 local, 2 express, 3 express south of 42 and local north of 42. (Especially on weekends, the 1 is more than enough south of 42. It's only north of 42 that the 1 needs some help on the local track.)
Pity there isn't a flying junction at Times Square, nor are there normal length platforms on the shuttle, or we could have:
(1) 242nd St - Broadway Local - 7th Av Local - South Ferry
(2) 241st St - Bronx Local - Broadway/7th Av Express - Brooklyn Local - Flatbush Av
(3) 148th St - Broadway/7th Av Express - Brooklyn Local - New Lots Av
(9) 137th St - Broadway Local - GCT
With this G.O. I am arriving at Times Square an average of 7 minutes late. At V.C. we are running a 6 minute headway instead of 5 and trains are still backed up.
What's causing the delays, congestion at 137th? Passenger confusion? (Though you shouldn't be getting much of that.)
The congestion at 137 slows you down plus the fact that all the trains are back to back and you end up going 15mph.
Yes the 2 is express. The 3s were supposed to terminate at 96St northbound and then run light to 137St and go back south for service. I saw some 3s running to 137St in passenger service. Also the southbound 3s were to get the full express run, but all the 3s Ive seen started their express run south of Times Square. Lets see what goes down next week.
Da Beastmaster
That's at least what I read on the bulletin....
Speaking of the GO, three work trains are on site at Jackson, working on the crossover switch between the middle and 3 Track. They were put to sleep south of the station overnight.
-Stef
Well this GO will be going on for another month. Every 2 line crew was wondering what went wrong this time around. The supplements are basically the same as last time. The only difference is that there are no 3s to contend with which is a good thing. 2 trains were being turned at 135St, 96St, and Times Square due to single tracking btwn 135 and 149-GC. T/Os cannot go no more than 5mph. The flaggers are making sure of it. This causes delays in getting a train in and out of Mott. Right now 3 track at Lenox Jct is skeletonized. From what Im hearing the whole Lenox Jct will be redone. I hope it gets better next week.
Da Beastmaster
I take that back. There were SIX! work trains on the El. One here, one there, they were everywhere! I had never seen so many diesels at one time.
There were three work trains on 3 Track, one at the new switch and two working on the old one. Two were in the middle, one at the new switch and one at the newly created wye at the end of M Track. There was one train to be found at the portal going into 3rd Av, that should have been for signals....
Whoa! So much going on, even the street below the el was shut. I found Articulated Buses traveling on Jackson Av towards 149th St.
It appears that a new signal has gone up right outside of the junction on 2 Track at St. Ann's Ave. It looks like a Homeball, but I am unable to tell for sure. Will do some investigating!
Lenox will be a big project. I'm sure they'll have to shut service down for a weekend or two through there.
-Stef
Yes this will be for a few more wkends. However we have to get something cleared up here. The Tower is for the #2 crews and the #5 office train is for the #5 crews. I noticed a lot of #2 crews came up to chill on the office train. We can't have this!!! The Upper level turf belongs to the East Side only!
Speaking of the office train from Mott, it was on the road moments ago running through the GO area at Jackson.
-Stef
Hey!!! You know the 2 line run things around here. Besides, that Redbird was nice and warm on Sat. Lower level of Mott is very cold. Just for that, on Saturday, Im bringing all the 2 crews up there. Then we shall see...
See you on Saturday.
Da Beastmaster
I don't know about that! If you #2 crews come up to the office train will have to charge you a fee.
That ok if I ever go back to the #1 Line they will always find a way to reroute me to New Lots. They already found a way to sent me to Utica Ave on some wkends.
That ok if I ever go back to the #1 Line they will always find a way to reroute me to New Lots. They already found a way to send me to Utica Ave on some wkends.
I got curious and I decided to railfan the Sea Beach line [I did this yesterday]. So I start out by taking the B8 to Newkirk Av station where I just catch the Q express heading to Brighton Beach. We pass the local at Av J and we're cruising on the Brighton express until we get held by red signals right before Brighton Beach and the train before was a R40M[saw 2 of them running on the express]. So I go downstairs to wait for the B1, which I wait about 5 minutes before RTS 9340 comes. A pretty quick ride, at Av X station on the F, I saw the R32 F and I wabted to take it but I was afraid I might miss it so I keep going and I take the 1 to W 8 St to get on the N.
So a R32 approaches 86 St and I was like yes I could see the speedometer to see how fast we go. So I get on 3608, we wait about 8 minutes before we head off. We do 30mph between the open cut stations [man are these stations in SORRY shape!] then we do the curve into 59 St. Then we're off on the 4 Av express! So b/c of the timers we go no more than 30mph to me those timers make NO sense, its straight track come on, they should leave the ones before the West End turn. So we get stuck for a while b/c the W beats us to the express track; had it not been fir the timers we would of got there before it. So we proceed, arrive at 36 St wait and we're off again. So we're going real good, hit 46mph on the stretch from 36 to Pacific until a red signal ruined everything, the W again :-\. Then we proceed to Pacific, and we're off again. We have to go slow approaching Dekalb then to Lawrence and after Court St we're off into the Montague ratnnel.
So there's tiimers throughout the tunnel; don't see any sense in those neither, tunnel could EASILY be faster since its mostly straight track and has a slope but not too steep, went 31mph. We arrive at Whitehall, load passengers then we leave going through the stations, we go through the notorious slowdown approaching City Hall arrive at Canal St then the Broadway local continues. Since a R is in front of us, we can't get the speed we wanted to but this T/O was smart keeping his distance even though he had green signals. So we're continuing along and only a (Q) passed us along the way, which I was surprised. So we go through the turn onto 60 Stthe R still in front but the T/O kept his distance once again and when we arrive at Lex Av, the platform was packed! So we wait there for about a minute the signals we're turning green then we're off into the 60 St tube. So we're going and we hit 58mph, man what a rush; no doubt the downward slope plays a factor then we get back to 'reality' speeds and we arrive at QB Plaza. People missed the 7 since it just left so we turn onto the el and go through the stations and the once existent Astoria express track was solid red signals. So we finally arrive at Ditmars Blvd and I just miss the R40 slant n that was ahead of us.
SO I'm waiting and they said the incoming W was leaving before the N so I decide to hop on R68A 5174. On the N I saw 6 R40's, 4 R40M's and 3 R32's. When leaving, I saw a diamond N on the side rollsign on R32 3701[now the north end]. So we go through the local stops very quickly and we turn into QB Plaza, stop pick up passengers and we're off into the 60 St tube. We get held by red signals before we go into it b/c of a R in front of us but nonetheless we manage to go about 50mph through the tunnel. So I take it to 57 St and I will wait for the Q express to leave. I'm going through the cars and the blind end door of R40 4440 was squeaky, hurt my ears for a sec. Then the R40 leaves and we're off. Heading the opposite way, 2 (Q)'s got bunched up somehow so people had to wait I'm sure. So we're going through the Broadway express quickly until we descend into Canal St, pick up passengers then we're off onto the bridge. Enjoying the sights and outdoors on the Manny-B until we head back indoors. We go through the stations on the Brighton and after Prospect Park we're off onto the Brighton express! This line still keeps the words 'rapid transit' alright so I ride it until I reach my stop at Newkirk Av and then I go home.
RTS 8680 B8
R40 4303
RTS 9340 B1
R32 3608 (N)
R68A 5174 (W)
R40 4441
Wow sounds like fun. Its a shame how the TA treats the N though. Between letting the traitor W train and dismal R in front of it, and the sorry shape of the Sea Beach line stations...ugh!
And when both sides of the bridge open, the TA has to take the N away from that tunnel and put it back on the bridge.
The Montague tunnel and the Steinway tubes are my least fav river tubes, they are so slow!
Yes, at least fix the stations. I once ate at L & B Spumoni Gardens on 86th (very good pizza, really). I took the W going there, thinking it was closer, but going back I took the N. I think the N's a little closer to L & B, it felt that way. When I went inside the 86th Street station house, I couldn't believe how dingy it looked, especially the platform and the passage that connects the station house to the platforms.
OK, there's not enough room for the N along with the two Q's and the much more-used W right now and the R is not sufficient by itself as the local, but at least fix the Sea Beach stations and clean up the ROW. Is losing the bridge and the Manhattan express run not bad enough?
Most sea beach stations are just a mess. If the Sea beach operted an express some how and operated as 4th ave express it would draw more riders then it does. The density around the brighton line is about the same as the density around sea beach, Many people especially down the end if the line near l&b choose to take the express bus because the sea beach N is so slow and come infrequently even during rush hour.
Compare it to the 2-6 min rush hour combined Q circle, Q diamond. The same can be said for the R. Many nay ridge commuters take the express bus or the express ferry due to infrequent service and slow all local service into manhattan. Add that there is no express service at all on the 4th ave between 59th street and 36th street and you have people crowding the express buses which cost the MTA more to operate
Add that there is no express service at all on the 4th ave between 59th street and 36th street
Obviously spoken by someone who doesn't actually ride the segment in question. Or else I've been taking wrong line-ups every Sunday and Monday since early September.
There IS express service from 36-59 St, the N runs express via 4 Av from Pacific-59 all times at the moment; however I have heard that N trains at times stopped at 45 and 53 Sts on weekends. People ride the X27,28,37 and 38 b/c the R is infrequent and slow in the rush and the same goes for the N. Running via Montague and the lower Manhattan stations takes its toll but something has to serve them and NOT b/c of the express, the N DOES run the course of the 4 Av express. Only the W doesn't operate at a 9-10 minute headway in the rush hour via 4 Av [the M,N & R runs every 9-10 min in the rush], every 7 minutes in the rush. Over the years, the N and R saw headways DECREASE, its popularity tumbled and so did the Broadway line and it wasn't until the Q came back to Broadway via express and the intro of the W did the B'way line come back.
Hi there. When I visit NYC soon I also intend to take a trip to Newark. Is there much to be seen at Newark Penn Station? and are there any of the PCC cars still operationg on the Newark City Subway or is all LRVs now? Am I likely to encounter any hassle when taking photos on PATH, the Newark City Subway and around Newark Penn Station?
"are there any of the PCC cars still operationg on the Newark City Subway or is all LRVs now?"
Sorry, PCC's were retired as of August 2001. It's all LRV's now.
"Am I likely to encounter any hassle when taking photos on PATH, the Newark City Subway and around Newark Penn Station?"
Even before the current orange alert, photograhphy is not permotted on PATH. They are sticklers about this and will tell you up front. Newark City Subway is not a problem, not sure about Newark Penn Station. With the current orange alert, this may be risky.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've never been hassled taking photographs at Newark Penn Station, but with current Orange Alert fears, all bets are off.
Some photos from my Newark City Subway archives:
PCC #6 (Public Service livery)
PCC #5
light rail vehicle #102
PCC's are still visible at the shop at end of the line:
PCC at Bloomfield
PATH is a no-no for photos, esp. since 9-11. But feel free to photograph the station itself, AMTRAK, and NJ TRANSIT. They don't have strict photographing rules. If they don't have them by now, that means they don't need them.
There's really nothing you could do with the Steinway tubes b/c of the 3rd rail gaps and they don't want to take the chance of getting derailments. As for the Montague, it looks like a FAST tunnel but the timers on straight track throughout destroys any chance to go over 30mph. I agree that the MTA could spruce those stations up, especially Kings Hwy and 8 Av.
There's really nothing you could do with the Steinway tubes b/c of the 3rd rail gaps and they don't want to take the chance of getting derailments. As for the Montague, it looks like a FAST tunnel but the timers on straight track throughout destroys any chance to go over 30mph. I agree that the MTA could spruce those stations up, especially Kings Hwy and 8 Av.
Well, at least the N has at least one set of Brightliners still running. Now having 2 R40M's on the is far more interesting compared to one set last 12/27 when I was on the (Q).
If a thread drifts off the original subject, please alter the title. As much as I enjoy reading about annoyances (92 responses at last count), I'd like to skip the baseball replies.
Well, with snow on the ground yesturday I went out camera in hand and took some pics around NYC. A good deal of subway pics in there too, but not restricted to it. Can't compare to DJG's collection from last time, but hope you all enjoy.
Snow day in NY
Took a couple of shots today myself... running errands at several locations here in Jersey and found myself northbound on the Turnpike just past exit 9. Stopped and took a few pictures of the Mary Murray in the snow... but you'll have to wait to see them until I finish that roll. A state trooper started to pull over (I guess to see if I needed help) but swung back out without stopping when he saw me pointing my camera at the derelict old ferry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
***[A state trooper started to pull over (I guess to see if I needed help) but swung back out without stopping]***
Yeah, he saw, what he thought was a Hillbilly and decided, he had
better things to do, like find a runner of untaxed or illicit goods.
>GG<
;\) Sparky
Hey! I resemble that remark...
Had Jr. along and was driving the van today (heater works MUCH better than the one in the truck) so I was also sporting my NC tags.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NC Tags, a camera, and a Hillbilly look and an old ferry.
Tropper says not it ain't so. Gotta find me someun to bust.
;\) Sparky
NC Tags ... Is that the one with the singular that is the same
as my Empire State plural???
So is it Trolley [NC] or Trolleys [NY]??? >GG<
;-) Sparky
That's the one... just for the sake of one of our more prolific posters I should re-activate the NC tag that I, and later my older son, had for many years: PENNSYRR. But I no longer have enough vehicles registered in NC to use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Im getting a temporary unavailable error when I access your site. Boy, Tripod is a real PITA with bandwidth! :-0
Great shots, especially that J on the express track. What camera are you using?
One suggestion: resize the photos before posting them. They're huge, and some aren't even showing up.
Yeah I know. It was done as a quick job, and PSP doesn't resize in its batch converts.
Once I get a day off, I'll work at that. And if it snows monday as its supposed to, I shall have even more.
Does anyone know of a program (not too expensive, preferably free) that will resize a bunch of images at once?
I've seen recommendations for (and used, at least a bit) XnView and Irfanview. I'm sure there are many others.
Look at that! It's supposed to snow tomorrow. This time I'll try to make it out with the camera. (Want to meet somewhere?)
Yeah that sounds cool. Got some stuff to do around evening so if you don't mind me calling it a day around 4 I'm all for it. I get off at Pelham Bay hopefully around 11, I'll be able to check back here (or email) around 1-ish, so just name the time and place if you want to do it early. Before the shuttle starts here I can get anywhere easily. If you want to go a little later, name the time and somewhere midtown.
AWESOME photos! You rule!
Take Pride,
Brian
What a shame the signalling system on the central line does not allow other types of stock to operate...!
London Underground has mny complete units stored at various locations that could have been inspected and introduced to the central line.
Indeed the 8 car 1962 sandite unit still has 7 cats with seats in it.
Rumours of a shuttle service running just between Liverpool St-Stratford in the next week or so and the Waterloo and city line should be running by Thursday next week.
Any other rumours gents?
Rob
During what hours will the Central Line be closed? Is it going to be the entire line? That's gonna be one big headache for London commuters. I wonder what tubehell.com has to say about it.
And I thought the weekend suspension of 2/5 service between Grand Concourse and East 180th Street was gonna be bad.
Sorry, looks like tubehell.com no longer exists and they're coming out with a new site called tuberush.com, currently under construction. But I'm sure London commuters will be royally pissed over the Central Line shutdown.
What a shame the signalling system on the central line does not allow other types of stock to operate...!
IIRC, the problem with the Central Line is that the tunnels are so goddam small between Shepherd's Bush and Liverpool Street that the third rail is at an odd height.
Rumours of a shuttle service running just between Liverpool St-Stratford in the next week
I didn't think they could relay Central Line trains at Stratford - IIRC, Leytonstone is the next point after Liverpool Street where it's possible.
You are correct. It is not possible to relay at Stratford and they would have to proceed to Leytonstone to do so.
My question is why operate a Liverpool to Stratford shuttle if there is a National Rail Line doing the same thing according to my track map.
My question is why operate a Liverpool to Stratford shuttle if there is a National Rail Line doing the same thing according to my track map.
No idea - it seems strange - all it says on LT's website is that the first section to be restored will be between "East London" and "the City". I suppose they don't want to run a service which would come in from the East and overload existing services at Leytonstone or Stratford (if they've got a car hoist or something ;-) ).
A few days ago, new steelwork was installed in between the trackways next to the 85th St. end of the Forest Pkwy. station. Obviously, a new structure is going to be placed here. Anyone know what it's for? There's already a large structure at the opposite end of the station, but that's related to the Forest Parkway power substation.
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Please use the old format. My computer has problems with links. Thanks
TRK
On all of them or just this one? This one was a little sketchy because I don't think that the link anchor was ever included in the page for this item.
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If it weren't already committed - How about using that money to accelerate completion of existing capital projects, or complete additional station renovations (for example, making some of Sea Beach Fred's favorite stations up to date and ADA-compliant)?
«(for example, making some of Sea Beach Fred's favorite stations up to date and ADA-compliant)? »
Sea Beach, a lightly used line in relatively low density area with probably very few ADA compliant buildings, would be the least useful candidate for ADA improvements. Doing so in Manhattan would make much more sense.
Arti
I was joking...
Ya forgot the smilie, Ronnie!! :D
You posted like you were serious anyway...
I'm not joking!!! Not one R142 received from Bombardier is ADA compliant.....the folding seat has no LEGAL provisions for a handicapped person in a wheelchair...Bombardier failed once again.....unlike MABSTOA busses.
So now they find 670 million surplus...after the TWU 100 contract is ratified. It is simply a matter of mollecular compression...turning a dollar into a copper plated steel penny. CI Peter
Welcome to economopolitics 101. Surpluses in election years, massive deficits one year later, during contract negotiations and during times of proposed fare hikes. The money doesn't change. How it's counted is.
(If it weren't already committed - How about using that money to accelerate completion of existing capital projects, or complete
additional station renovations (for example, making some of Sea Beach Fred's favorite stations up to date and
ADA-compliant)?
Drum roll please -- I agree with you Ron. The issue is the same with the State University. When times are flush, instead of putting the money away, the state avoids raising fees. Then it puts through these MASSIVE fee hikes at the worst possible time. Same thing with tax cuts and hikes. Taxes are soaring no matter what Pataki says -- local taxes and UI taxes are going up.
What good is putting the fare increase off a year? The fare should go up EVERY year by the amount of the TWU contract. If that means the MTA makes a big profit, it should BANK the funds and put through a temporary fare discount in a recession. Recessions are also the time to ramp up capital spending.
I hope everyone will remember this when they want to cut pension contributions and taxes, and refrain from raising fares, in the next boom.
[The fare should go up EVERY year by the amount of the TWU contract.]
Now THERE's an interesting idea... the fare would be $1.545 (rounded to $1.55) next year, and $1.59 in 2005. Try keeping track of your MetroCard balance with a $1.59 fare!!
Of course, the annual increases, though small, are enough to make the idea a political non-starter.
soom NYC's base fare will be lower than the Bee Line's fare at least NYC is better off than Westchester at this time
([The fare should go up EVERY year by the amount of the TWU contract.]
Now THERE's an interesting idea... the fare would be $1.545 (rounded to $1.55) next year, and $1.59 in 2005. Try keeping track of your MetroCard balance with a $1.59 fare!! Of course, the annual increases, though small, are enough to make the idea a political non-starter.)
I meant AFTER the $2.00 fare, which will do nothing more than return the fare (adjusted for discounts) back to where it was in 1995. That would make it $2.06 next year $2.12 the year after. Impossible? Consider that with the pay per ride ten ride discount, the fare is $1.37 now. So what you actually need to do is adjusted the whole fare package by the amount of the contract, then adjust the nominal pay per ride to the nearest nickel.
As for political impossibility, I think the whopper increases every seven years are what creates the political problems -- 33 percent for the transit fare, and 41 percent for SUNY. If it was automatic, you'd only have to have the fight once.
The MTA's biggest problem is that it is far too labor intensive. If the $2.00 base fare results in widespread modernization that will allow the system to swiftly modernize and operate more effecient then I am for it.
I hope this does not come out the wrong way, but many immigrant new comers to this country don't realize how bad the bus and subway system was in the late 70's and 80's. They take for granted how well the system runs.
The robust NY ecomnomy is long gone. It is just getting worse. NY life is moving an additioal 1200 workers to westchester or NJ. Conde naste is moving thier entire back office down south. MTA and NY in general needs to modernize it's infrastructure and crazy tangle of regulations that drive up costs and jobs out.
The MTA's biggest problem is that it is far too labor intensive. If (The $2.00 base fare results in widespread modernization that will
allow the system to swiftly modernize and operate more effecient then I am for it. MTA and NY in general needs to modernize it's infrastructure and crazy tangle of regulations that drive up costs and jobs out.)
You may be the Voice of Reason but not of knowledge. Take it from someone who has some expertise in this area: NYCT's cost per ride is low compared with transit providers elsewhere, and the comprehensive transit network allows people to live with zero or one car instead of two or three. It is one of region's key assets, not a liability. Could it be more efficient? Sure, and we are slowly moving that way. But it isn't bad now.
In fact, the entirety of NYC local government looks good relative to local government elsewhere, especially elsehwere in NY State. We contract out our excessive spending, mostly through Medicaid. Look on the website of the Taub Urban Research Center under "research" if you want some knowledge as to what is actually going on.
The MTA needed to impliment pseudo fare hikes that the public would see as relitivly painless, but when times got tough would provide a buffer for an accross the board fare hike.
These would include raising rates for ringle ride MetroCards, Tokens or both and maybe charging 25 cents or something for transfers.
When times are flush, instead of putting the money away, the state avoids raising fees. Then it puts through these MASSIVE fee hikes at the worst possible time. Same thing with tax cuts and hikes. Taxes are soaring no matter what Pataki says -- local taxes and UI taxes are going up.
What good is putting the fare increase off a year? The fare should go up EVERY year by the amount of the TWU contract. If that means the MTA makes a big profit, it should BANK the funds and put through a temporary fare discount in a recession. Recessions are also the time to ramp up capital spending.
The thing is, when times are good, everyone thinks that business cycles have been repealed and things will stay good. I'm not saying this solely because of all the "new economy" babble in the late 1990's. People were saying the same "this will last forever" stuff during the last big boom, in the late 1980's. It must be something about human nature.
'Price of life' increases every day. So we get sum/3/3 with increased copay and givebacks. Less than ten percent in third year...TA has resignments/firings/layoffs/retirement and other sources of attrition. They close 177 token booths...nothing is mentioned about secured access which will cost a lot of money.
My trainsets suffer on one hundred year old busy trackage...the BERA CREW puts Roger Toussaint to shame. The trainsets go TT on defective trackage and everyone loses. New trackage means increased headway, safer transport and less TTs. Many of my utility bills include MTA subsidies and I am going to demand, under law, a complete breakdown of the surcharges. The monies collected should go to mass transit. No need for a fare hike. CI Peter
The good thing about economic booms not lasting is that the next one is inevitable. Once the war is over and if Bush's tax cuts are inplimented, it may be here sooner than most would expect.
The good thing about economic booms not lasting is that the next one is inevitable. Once the war is over and if Bush's tax cuts are inplimented, it may be here sooner than most would expect.
Most of the economic statistics have been looking fairly good recently. War should not change that, unless stock market investors get too spooked and allow prices to plummet.
The good thing about economic booms not lasting is that the next one is inevitable. Once the war is over and if Bush's tax cuts are implimented, it may be here sooner than most would expect.
Plus the price of oil will tumble once the uncertainty of the current sitation ends, which will mean prices anywhere from 40 to 60 percent below the current price per barrel, that will translate into lower production and manufacturing costs (push it back a couple of months if Saddam does booby trap his oilfields, though if you can get a few shares of Red Adair's company or Boots and Coots right now -- the two main oilwell blowout containment companies -- it probably wouldn't be a bad investment).
I'm not surprised. As I said before, its all about greed and they want to pocket the extra money for themselves. Hey Larry Littlefield, I think you might want to reconsider your support for the $2 fare w/no service cuts ;-). I thought the MTA had hundreds of millions of dollars that is probably 'hidden'.
(Hey Larry Littlefield, I think you might want to reconsider your support for the $2 fare w/no service cuts ;-). I thought the MTA had
hundreds of millions of dollars that is probably 'hidden'. )
OK, I've reconsidered it, and I haven't changed my mind.
One thing about me is that I always care more about the future than today. And history shows that if the fare is held down, the result is disaster. I'd like to see it raised to keep up with inflation with small increases -- after the big one we'd have to have to make up for the past seven years. And if money is just sitting there, it should be used to invest in the system of payoff debts, not to postpone the inevitable another year or two.
A lot of it comes down to assumptions about the tax dollars available to the system. The reality is tax dollars are going for health care for the senior citizens, debts run up by the senior citizens, pensions for the senior citizens, and that's it. If we are going to have a system, we are going to have to pay for it in fares and tolls. Far from getting tax dollars for transit, we'll be lucky if MTA revenues are not stolen for use elsewhere. Rather than put up a losing and irresponsible fight for something for nothing, we should me focused on making sure we get something for something.
The $1.50 fare can be kept but I *DO* agree that a fare increase is going to have to come in the next year or two unless the MTA makes such a profit that a fare hike won't be needed. I say a $1.75 fare would be better but imagine the service we would get; at the current fare we ALREADY have substandard service on bus & subway lines and not enough rolling stock & buses to handle today's crowds. MTA has been getting cheated over the years by the state, losing over $300 million a year; while the state SHOULD get a cut, that figure is way too much and the politicians steal it and use it for their own personal use. I'm willing to accept a fare hike **IF** we get don't get cheated, no service cuts and incentives; other than that forget about it.
(I'm willing to accept a fare hike **IF** we get don't get cheated, no service cuts and incentives; other than that forget about it.)
I'd settle for all the fares, tolls, parking revenues, MTA dedicated taxes, and other transportation revenues being used for transportation. If we could achieve that, we'd have done well.
Without lots of these and similar revenues, however, we are definately going back to the 1970s. Money flows into the past from the future around here, not the other way around.
What happens in the future does impact what happens today, no doubt about it. Now lets say all of the things you mentioned happened and the revenue was used for the correct purposes that would be great. Unfortunately, that usually doesn't happen, some revenue is defrred elsewhere and someone always loses and you're right, the 70's will come back w/o the revenue :-(.
The reality is tax dollars are going for health care for the senior citizens, debts run up by the senior citizens, pensions for the senior citizens, and that's it.
How right you are. Respect for the aged is a fine thing, but we've taken it a few steps too far in America.
But don't get the idea that only New Yorkers are clueless when it comes to the cost of supporting the elderly. Consider Brad Henry, the Governor of Oklahoma. In his State of the State address last week, he came up with this gem:
... we should consider exempting retirement income of seniors from taxation, not only to recognize the contributions of our greatest generation but to make Oklahoma an attractive place to relocate for non-resident seniors. Their dollars would lead to valuable economic growth.
Hey Brad, idiot, haven't you ever heard of Medicaid???
The reality is tax dollars are going for health care for the senior citizens, debts run up by the senior citizens, pensions for the senior citizens, and that's it.
How right you are. Respect for the aged is a fine thing, but we've taken it a few steps too far in America.
But don't get the idea that only New Yorkers are clueless when it comes to the cost of supporting the elderly. Consider Brad Henry, the Governor of Oklahoma. In his State of the State address last week, he came up with this gem:
... we should consider exempting retirement income of seniors from taxation, not only to recognize the contributions of our greatest generation but to make Oklahoma an attractive place to relocate for non-resident seniors. Their dollars would lead to valuable economic growth.
Hey Brad, idiot, haven't you ever heard of Medicaid???
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May derail? It's Dead. There's no money in Maryland's budget, the Fed's aren't giving, and Maryland's Congressional Delegation doesn't give a flying F***.
The first public hearings brought out the local NIMBY contingent by the carload, plus the enviro-freaks by the proverbial busload.
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Oops - it's illegal to baffle pundits and defy the odds, so DART's in for trouble.
DART should know that ALL public agencies exist for the sole purpose of providing job security for pundits, "advocates," and other critics. (Just ask the Straphangers Campaign here in NYC.)
:-)
The line itself looks like an elevated heavy rail line going through North Dallas and Richardson, similar to WMATA's Blue Line around King Street in Alexandria. It follows an old railroad ROW and paralells the Central Expressway, which was built just after WWII and has been widened a number of times since then, all to no effect in solving the downtown commute problem. That's why DART's so successful right from the outset -- given the option of a crowded train or traveling on the LIE of the Southwest, enough people are opting for leaving their cars at home that DART faces a capacity problem (which also has to take into account a major part of the downtown segement is street-running, through a former alleyway. The grade crossings are a deterrent to maximizing capacity, though they do allow for a combined bus/light rail transit hub near the West End area).
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Not sure who their "sources" are, but the reason the bridge won't be returned to rail service is because the ROW is gone on both sides of the bridge and it would be cost-prohibitive to replace it... weight issues aren't a factor. That bridge, as built, would support all but the heaviest trains of today, and it was substantially strengthened in the first decade of the last century. (It regularly saw fully-loaded trains of crushed stone and coal, pulled by steam power, which as you all know is substantially harder on track and structures than modern diesels.) And there's no need for another auto bridge at that location, plus many of the same ROW issues would apply. The bridge was modified from two track to gauntlet track primarily because of clearance issues; there were at least two occasions during the first ten years the bridge was in service that a westbound train had to back off the bridge because it couldn't clear the eastbound due to one or the other of them having a wide - plate "D" was wide then - car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read the article and didn’t understand: what is a “gauntlet track”?
It looks like it would be a great bridge to walk over!
John
(It looks like it would be a great bridge to walk over!)
That's for sure. My kids and I have started on a bridge walk effort. We've done the Brooklyn many times, of course, but have expanded to the Manhattan and GW. The Willie B is next, then the Triboro and Queensboro.
Our experience? The GW wasn't great, though the view was, because you are right next to the fumes and noise of the ever-heavy traffic. The Brooklyn puts you up over it, while on the Manny B you are next to the trains.
An all pedestrian bridge over the Hudson would be great. I also hope the rehab Highbridge someday.
My kids and I have started on a bridge walk effort. We've done the Brooklyn many times, of course, but have expanded to the Manhattan and GW. The Willie B is next, then the Triboro and Queensboro.
Our experience? The GW wasn't great, though the view was, because you are right next to the fumes and noise of the ever-heavy traffic. The Brooklyn puts you up over it, while on the Manny B you are next to the trains.
I think that the Verrazano is open to all pedestrians for a while on the day of the NY Marathon, probably after the last of the runners have left. Now that must be a spectacular view!
Or you can bike across it during "Bike New York", an annual event around the beginning of May. The view is spectacular.
--Mark
"Our experience? The GW wasn't great, though the view was, because you are right next to the fumes and noise of the ever-heavy traffic."
Heh, wanna try a real nostril opener ? Try the Goethals Bridge pedestrain walkway. The fumes are one thing, but in midspan the shaking of the passing tractor trailers is kinda scary.
What what I doing up there ? About ten years ago, my friend and I got word of a carfloat of IRT cars would be passing there. After a while and dozens of passing bridge shaking tractor trailers, the carfloat appeared, got my shots and it was back to Staten Island where my car was parked.
These IRT work motors and white R-17/22's were being floated on a carfloat, not barge to a scrapper in Perth Amboy. This was before the now popular reefing.
Bill "Newkirk"
You can walk over the Goethals? I never saw a walkway there, and certainly never saw anyone walking. I'll take another look next time I go to Joisey.
The good thing about the NY bridges is the round trip potential, with transit at both ends. That's one reason why I hope the ferry industry expands -- to fill in the recreational gaps.
I suppose that if the Pougheepsie Bridge becomes a walkway, you could do a round trip with the Bear Mountain. But it would be a VERY long walk.
I suppose that if the Pougheepsie Bridge becomes a walkway, you could do a round trip with the Bear Mountain.
You can already walk across the Mid-Hudson Bridge there so a round trip using two bridges would be possible without a lot of extra walking... most of that on the Poughkeepsie side, to get up to the elevation of the RR bridge (on the Highland side the ends are closer together and the old highway bridge access road, now a park, provides access to the RR bridge ROW as well).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Goethals Bridge is a real interesting walk. Too bad the P.A. has closed the pedestrian walkway. It ain't all that wide of a bridge. The walkway is "protected" by an itsy little jersey barrier. Those trucks get mighty close....
But you get pretty high up. And the view of the Chemical Coast towers, tanks, rails, any number of different types of industrial buildings, the skylines of Elizabeth, Newark and the other pod cities of the lovely Joisey terrain....good solid urbanity as far as the jaded eye can see. Maybe I'm warped but I always find it, uh, refreshing. No bull here, all this is what supports the shiny tower towns. Work gets done here. And off in the distance, good ol' New Jersey "mountains" as a backdrop.
And, hey, you can stroll into Elizabeth and get onto the NEC back into the thick of it.
A gantlet (both the article and I used the less-preferred spelling earlier) is defined as a section of double railroad tracks formed by the temporary convergence of two parallel tracks in such a way that each set remains independent while traversing the same ground, affording passage at a narrow place without need of switching. That is the formal definition, at least, from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. To put it in slightly simpler terms, the inner rails cross at a frog and run parallel, diverging at another frog later on, so that each direction of traffic runs on its own rails at all times without the need for a switch.
And it is a great bridge to walk over... I've been part of the way out from the Highland side... there was a walkway constructed for a short distance that was briefly open to the public until legal action (initiated by the power company, who built a substation on the old ROW near the Highland end) closed it down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
very interesting..never came across that type of set-up (frog)..is there widespread use of this, or is it reletively rare?..will be in poc wednesday..maybe i'll do some sightseeing around the bridge.
It is relatively common in trolley systems, especially the older ones. I think there's a section like that somewhere in Western Moscow and there used to be sections in the systems of the Black Country and the Potteries (both in England - in fact both in what used to be Staffordshire) before those were ripped up in the mid 20th Century. I'm sure there'll be some modern continental example, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.
There are some examples of gauntleted track in Amsterdam, where trams run in both directions in very narrow streets - the tram stops/crossing places are on the bridges over the canals.
There's a couple short gauntlets on the San Francisco Cable Car lines.
It isn't used nearly as frequently as it once was. As another poster has noted, it was much more common on trolley and interurban lines than on mainline railroading; a devastating crash on the South Shore in Indiana occurred at the end of a gantlet segment about a dozen or so years ago. The track wasn't to blame... operator error was (a signal was ignored). Closer to NYC, there was a stretch of trackage during the days of Manhattan Tranfer on the Pennsy that most people assumed was gantlet; it really wasn't, as there was a switch at either end, but what it did was move the freight passing the Transfer away from the platform edge while allowing the passenger trains to stop directly adjacent to the platforms. Many books use the improper terminology when referencing it, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The gauntlet at Manhattan Transfer was to allow H&M trains to platform at Manhattan Transfer. The PRR loading guage was like 10 feet and the H&M was IRT dimension.
Converting the bridge to a pedestrian bridge is definitely a mixed blessing. It'll be nice that people will be able to enjoy a spectacular view, and that the bridge won't be totally disused. But it should be used by trains ...
Hmmm...a Hudson crossing for $50 miilion, plus another $200 million for hooking up to the Harlem Line if the ROW is gone. Sounds cheaper than a new MEGABRIDGE at the Tappan Zee and probably less complex. Was this referenced in the study?
Hmmm...a Hudson crossing for $50 miilion, plus another $200 million for hooking up to the Harlem Line if the ROW is gone. Sounds cheaper than a new MEGABRIDGE at the Tappan Zee and probably less complex. Was this referenced in the study?
A rail crossing near the Tappan Zee Bridge would be more useful to commuters than a reopened Poughkeepsie Bridge, being closer to populated areas in Rockland and Orange counties.
(Hmmm...a Hudson crossing for $50 miilion, plus another $200 million for hooking up to the Harlem Line if the ROW is gone. Sounds cheaper than a new MEGABRIDGE at the Tappan Zee and probably less complex. Was this referenced in the study?)
(A rail crossing near the Tappan Zee Bridge would be more useful to commuters than a reopened Poughkeepsie Bridge, being closer to populated areas in Rockland and Orange counties.)
That's true. If the bridge were to be useful at all, it would be for freight. But even for that, a tunnel to the south would be more useful, as it could get stuff into the eastern Metro Area from the southern U.S. Selkirk already does that from the north.
Hmmm...a Hudson crossing for $50 miilion, plus another $200 million for hooking up to the Harlem Line if the ROW is gone. Sounds cheaper than a new MEGABRIDGE at the Tappan Zee and probably less complex. Was this referenced in the study?
Doubtful since the ROW is gone. Part of the ROW between the bridge and Fishkill was supposed to be used for a limited access highway (DC route 29) and that never came to pass. Other plans for it were just ... plans.
--Mark
any new develpments with the beacon line?...last train the ran on it was last fall for a foliage run...hasn't seen usage since.
Is there a sever that anyone knows of that has no hourly limit (or relatively high) and isn't too expensive? The pictures I uploaded from yesturday (that I posted earlier) are about 14 meg, and 1 person kills my hourly bandwidth limit on Tripod, and a paid subscription doesn't increase it by too much.
Try Dumbing down the pictures.
Pictures for the internet should never be more than 96 pixels per inch, most monitors can only resolve 72 pixesl per inch (15" monitor set at 800 pixels is standard).
Save your jpgs at a lower quality, there is no reason for a good picture to be much more than 60 KB.
Elias
Brother Elias: keep your opinions to yourself!!! I love the pics these guys post and put them in my WB2SGT Redbirdmobile. I like nice, big and clear color pics, especially of the Redbirds in a sunset scene. They go in plastic inserts on the rear deck with a TA helmet and safety vest. The dashboard is reserved for 'official ID placards.' The car is colored Redbird Red...no duct tape or body filler applied with steel wool or newspaper filler inserts. Just two small dents left after I made repairs when a doe crashed into the side of my car. I miss 8873/8874. CI Peter
Hey! I never saw the pictures, because he didn't say where they were posted. His complaint was about bandwidth problems, and some of those problems can be caused by pictures that have more information than any monitor can possibly display. As he said, he took the pictures at high resolution (probably 300 dpi~ possibly 600 dpi) which is fine for printing photos or for sending them to your publisher, but a standard monitor can only manage 72 to 96 pixels (dots per inch). Anything above that is wasted band width, and he found out, nobody can see them if Tripod or Geocities cuts you off at a certain bandwidth.
I use Tripod for my Subways 2020 website, and have never heard of it being shut down for excess bandwidth usage, so sight unseen, I suggested a cause for his problem. If you buy a real website on a real ISP, then the only limit to your bandwidth can be found in you wallet.
We use Consolidated Telephone for our ISP and website host, and they have no bandwidth limits.
You can check out the photos on that website, and except for a few very low light photos in the church, most of the pictures turn out well despite the fact that I keep them dumbed down for faster loading. (There is even a picture of me on the bottom of the home page which was taken in the cab of an Arnine at Branford... though you would only know *that* since I told you so!) : )
If one was serious about sharing good high quality photos suitable for printing or press work, you would probably be better off putting the high quality work in a zip file, and letting people download that. Of course from a free website, that still counts against your bandwidth, but at least you *can* share high quality without slowing down your website.
Elias
Hey! I never saw the pictures, because he didn't say where they were posted. His complaint was about bandwidth problems, and some of those problems can be caused by pictures that have more information than any monitor can possibly display. As he said, he took the pictures at high resolution (probably 300 dpi~ possibly 600 dpi) which is fine for printing photos or for sending them to your publisher, but a standard monitor can only manage 72 to 96 pixels (dots per inch). Anything above that is wasted band width, and he found out, nobody can see them if Tripod or Geocities cuts you off at a certain bandwidth.
I use Tripod for my Subways 2020 website, and have never heard of it being shut down for excess bandwidth usage, so sight unseen, I suggested a cause for his problem. If you buy a real website on a real ISP, then the only limit to your bandwidth can be found in you wallet.
We use Consolidated Telephone for our ISP and website host, and they have no bandwidth limits.
You can check out the photos on that website, and except for a few very low light photos in the church, most of the pictures turn out well despite the fact that I keep them dumbed down for faster loading. (There is even a picture of me on the bottom of the home page which was taken in the cab of an Arnine at Branford... though you would only know *that* since I told you so!) : )
If one was serious about sharing good high quality photos suitable for printing or press work, you would probably be better off putting the high quality work in a zip file, and letting people download that. Of course from a free website, that still counts against your bandwidth, but at least you *can* share high quality without slowing down your website.
Elias
I wanted to, unfortunately Paint Shop Pro's batch conversion feature will not resize the image, and I didn't feel like going through 40+ images and doing it manually. That was my first step before attempting to post them, but didn't have much time.
Before you say I should take them at lower rez, I take them at so high a resolution because the good ones I print at 8x10s, keep them around for display. ;)
You should resize the photos and save them as a different file name. For any photos that I've posted here, I have the original, very high resolution photo which no one sees and is saved on my hard drive. I then make a lower resolution copy which I upload on the web for everyone to see..
It looks like the M2 rebuild program is having some success, since I've noticed a few refurbished M2 trains popping up lately. The seats and floor are brand new, and the lighting is brighter. But most importantly, hopefully the necessary repairs are being made to prevent short trains (many M2s had been taken out of service due to not working properly). But now this rebuild should allow them to survive until 2012, when they are replaced by M8s. -Nick
Makes you think that the LIRR should have rebuilt the M-1's rather than chucking them in the trash.
Oh, IMHO, an M-1 stripped to the bare frame, cleaned up, replaced with a new interior, given better trucks and an SC propulsion system, would have rulled.
Trouble being, it would have been a bit expensive too, and who knows what condition the bodies are really in.
Still, a 90,000 lb car with 500-600 HP would do wonders for the LIRR's schedules....
Well it is clear that some M1 are ready for the scrapper and that the LIRR does need MORE cars. They should have tried to re-build the M-1's and then just made the M-7's, M-1 clones like CDoT did w/ the M-4 and M-6.
How I would have done M-7 is this way:
Retain the basic M-1/3 body design - it's excellent, it's proven.
Remove the bump strips above/below where the blue stripe was. They look stupid with bare stainless between them.
Look at the cab ends and see what could bechanged there. I think possibly a bit of research into what could be done to improve grade crossing accident safety for passengers/crew could be done, and I don't think there'd be a big (if any) weight penalty.
Retain the 1/2 cab. The full cab is a pointless cave in to union whining, pure and simple.
Use modern truck technology. The Pioneer III design is old, and current fabricated trucks are simply better.
AC traction. A no brainer.
Roof mounted A/C system.
Replace the current wooden floor with a fiberglass composite. This would be longer lasting, lighter, and provide a fire protection advantage over wood.
The MA set, etc, would be replaced by modern inverter technology. Other systems would be modernized also.
Place an ADA bathroom at the car end, not in the middle of the car like the LIRR did for some stupid reason.
Make the sets into married quads of cars of an A-B-C-A variety. This would elimanate cabs and their complications / problems.
No 'chatty cathy' announcements. No TV studio lighting either.
Retain the double door arrangement - it's better than single doors because when a single door fails, it screws up a whole door, plus single doors are slower.
Look for a closer intercar connection that's wider and safer for passengers.
Do a structural analysis to see if cantilevered seating could be implemented.
Set a target weight of 85,000 lbs (ready to run), with contractual penalties for anything above 100,000 lbs.
FRA requires full-cabs.
Since they run lots 10 car trains, quad arrangement wouldn't work.
Redesign the fiberglass cab end to accomodate a tubular diaphragm like the Montreal EMU's.
FRA requires full-cabs.
Could someone point to where in 49CFR238 it says MUs must have full width cabs? I can't find it.
They haven't chucked them all in the trash yet. But their time is getting close.
A fresh supply of stainless steel and used machine parts hitting the market...
A very nice website.
But if there are that many articles in it, why shouldn't we just link to the site directly through Subway.org?
Jersey Mike - rather than simply posting a link to a every story in that on-line journal's list, why not discuss a topic (bringing your opinion into the picture) and then link to D:F as needed by your theme.
All of us post story URLs or links occasionally, and not always with comments. But over several posts that's all you do. You haven't offered an analysis of your own. We'd like to hear it.
The problem is that D:F often contains a lot of chaff irrelevent to SubTalk and in the past when I have urged people to read it nobody does and nothing ever gets discussed. I post only the headlines that have some relevence to issues discussed on SubTalk and that present information that has not already been posted in order to stimulate discussion on the various indivudual topics. SubTalkers are more likley to read a thread that is specifically on something they are interested in rather than some vague blanket thread asking them to read and then comment on a long newsletter.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-nywtc083121364feb08,0,3265366.story?coll=nyc%2Dtopheadlines%2Dqueens
The story indicates that construction work will begin in 2004, to integrate the subway line's pedestrian access system.
Naturally, a few whiners are having a hissy fit over not being placed in charge.
I say get on with it...
"The South Ferry station is set to expand the single-track, five-car station on the 1/9 subway line to a three-track, two platform terminal. It also is expected to be completed in 2007."
I hope they can do that without destroying the current historic station, but I'm probably just dreaming. I guess it would have no use anyhow, but it seems such a shame to just destroy it.
---Brian
Heh...
That sounds like they're going to replace the single-track loop with a three-track, two platform, stub terminal (like the 33rd path station).
I can hear the howls already...
Here's an interesting quote:
The South Ferry station is set to expand the single-track, five-car station on the 1/9 subway line to a three-track, two platform terminal. It also is expected to be completed in 2007.
Huh? How on earth are they gonna do this?
Sounds like they'll have to move the station platform back (north) at least 50-75 feet in order to get two more platforms in on the west side of the current track. That would mean all but the back end of the current SF station would either be abandoned or destroyed.
They could get closer to the terminal by moving the tracks away from the harbor wall, but to do that would destroy the entire South Ferry loop, which would make GO reroutes between the East Side and West Side IRT much harder than it is now.
My bet would be the current 1/9 track loop would be maintained, the same way Track 1 at Grand Central still connects with the downtown IRT local on Park Ave. South, and the inner loop for turning Bowling Green trains would stay, but there also would be a new crossover built just north of the new SF station and south of the Rector St. station. That would permit 1/9 trains to either reverse direction from the current track and the two new tracks to go back uptown, or continue forward on the loop route and return to Rector the current way (this would also potentially allow the No. 5 train to platform at South Ferry while using the outer loop to return uptown, while the 1/9 trains could platform on the two new tracks at the SF station, which would end with bumper blocks.
I can't see any way they could build this station without destroying the South Ferry loop, and what does this do to the ability of #5 trains terminating at Bowling Green?
The loop could be saved if the two new tracks are placed towards the back end of the current outer platform station and exteneded north, beneath Battery Park. The bumper block for both those tracks (lets call them Tracks 3 and 4) would be near the back end of the current station, like the bumper blocks on Tracks 3 and 4 for the shuttle at Grand Central.
Track 2 would be the current outer loop track, except that the platform would basically begin about where the fifth car on the 1/9 currently platforms, and the new platform would be extended north from there. Where the front four cars currently platform, and where the curve is in the station, would be sealed off by a false wall, but the track itself would not be removed, so that trains could continue around the loop on that track, and the loop itself could be preserved (there would be a walkway leading away from the bumper blocks to the SI Ferry terminal).
Track 1 would be the inner loop, for the No. 5 Lex trains to continue back around to Bowling Green, and it wouldn't be affected by the change. If there was enough room at the new rear part of the station, the switch currently in place to allow Lex trains to use the outer platform could be moved back (north) about 400-450 feet, so that the No. 5 trains could still have access to Track 2 at SF and then return to the Lex using the existing switch (they'd probably have no access to Tracks 3 or 4). The 1/9 trains would have access to Tracks 2, 3 and 4 and could loop back to Rector on Track 2, but could only get back there the way they came in on Tracks 3 and 4.
Dear Visitor:
The building which is the background for our webpage (and for the
image in your thread) is the former site of the High School of the Performing Arts which is located in Manhattan on West 46th Street between 6th and 7th Avenues. The building is now occupied by the Jacqueline Onassis foundation. Hope this helps.
Best, FAME
I am signing off this board. Most messages are juvenile or repeat the same stuff mentioned last week. I went back and checked the archives.
I will continue to lurk in hopes that "adults" will start to drive off the "kids" and "trolls".
I checked old handles and noticed many "adults" have left.
I will check the web for other rail boards.
This is the Sunet Limited. Next stop Scrap yard.
Blah!
Ummm, this board is for everyone, not just adults. And Why are you coming off?? This board gets a little rough from time to time, but this board is very informative.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
That's your privilege. Did you contribute something to the threads?
Wimp. I guess it takes someone able to pick and choose between the good and bad posts (in terms of what to read) to last at this board. I've learned so much from this and had so many of my questions answered that I can't imagine not posting here any more. Who are some "adults" that have left?
He "WAS new too.
Yeah I know, isn't that something he just came in late January. Guess he can't handle it yet or at ALL here.
Ahhh He's a little baby, cant take the subtalk group.
It's nonsense. There are many great people here. And there are many older people here who have great knowledge of the system from the past, and post regularly.
I am not a kid, nor am I an older person (having grown up in the 70's and 80's). You need a good mix for an interesting board, and everyone has to remember that you need kids to "take-over" being railfans for the future. If kids do not get interested in the subway or trains, who will the "older" group of railfans be in the future? I think it's great that they have an interest in the subway.
As for subtalk posts, sure there is a lot of nonsense posted sometimes, but I'm afraid it's not just the kids who are resposible for it.
No one forces anyone to read "everything". It's impossible anyway. I selectively read what I am interested in, and if a topic goes off the deep end, I just ignore it. Sometimes it is frustrating to click on a title that I am very interested in only to find the content is totally irrelevant to the title. I find nothing wrong if people want to get off on a tangent, but it would be nice if they would change the title if they do so. But again, no one is forcing anyone to read everything, I just ignore the thread if I don't find it interesting, or worth my time.
All in all though, I would never consider using the killfile. Many times I don't bother reading many messages by some posters, especially if I am in a rush. However, there are a few posters here who I find usually contribute greatly to the board, and whose posts I read even in threads I wouldn't otherwise be interested in.
And even though it gets nuts here sometimes, there is still much quality here also.
Hey, I don't care how old everyone is here, as long as I' explore the great deal of daily life of MTA, Straphanger and us New Yorkers; know what going on at A B C D E F G J L M N Q R S V W Z Trains; What we've witnessed on the subway today, Find out who is the new subway rider...an animal or another UFO alien; Making friend with Fred. This is why I like www.nycsubway.org.
There many ways u can enjoy the fun here like teasing Kool-D, making fun of American Pig, checking new photos.
I agree with that statement! Also you have Brighton Exp Bob talking [and 'making fun'] about Fred's Sea Beach, me, Kool-D, Brighton Exp Bob, voiceofreason & others bragging about our Brighton line and Selkirk's political talk :0). There's a lot of excitement here.
Here is fun part
Manhattan bound Sea Beach Fred Trains skip Kool-D Plaza, Old Tom Road, and Selkirk Ave. Sunday 7AM - 7PM.
Because of an incident at 7th Ave. Service on the Brighton Exp Bob has been disrupted for serval hours.
Heehee LOL! I'm sure the California man *cough Fred cough* will be 'happy' to see that.
Did Brighton Exp. Bob accidently change the battery on that Q train? Maybe that's the reason why the train stalled after 3 minutes.
Hey Bob, you were supposed to use the batteries for your CD player, now look what you did.
The Bob and Fred Show is a knee slapper every time. Those two feed off each other and leave me rotflmao.
I know right 8-). Those two always provide entertainment here and when its not so energetic here, they always seem to post at the right time LOL!
Sorry to let you go.
Yo. You didn't even last till the second inning, brah.
It takes some time to get warmed up to knowing-your-way-around
SubTALK... tis' a shame cuz it's one hella surreal family once
you get past the front doorstep..
You didn't even make a thread on our doormat.
Sorry, blah.
Tru dat, Tru Dat!
:)
Oh man you gotta lighten up. I DO agree that there are too many off topics but what could we do about it, just don't respond to it that's all. And there are ACTUAL kids who DO post here too; you're missing out on lots of stuff but oh well its your choice.
It's your choice, but it seems the opinion of subtalk thinks you should give this board another chance. You are new here, and sure..it may take some time to get your feet wet. But you can gain a lot of railfan knowledge by being apart of this board. Granted, I needed to take a hiatus from posting for about a month, but that was because it got tedious to reply to so many posts. But I rested, and now I'm ready to enjoy the good quality of posts subtalk has to offer once again. -Nick
Sometimes newbies take a look at the archives trying to look up what has happened in the past. To get an idea what might be coming up in the future. I think steinway took a look and got turned off by some of the postings made. If he looks in subtalk again (and I think he has!) he might decide to return.
As I take my driving lessons, I have been commuting to work with Johnsson County Transit, an operation that runs rush-hour buses between Johnson County and Kansas City (serving both KS and MO sides of Kansas City). For other trips to, say, downtown or elsewhere, I use KCATA.
The drivers are nice and polite and very helpful, and are able to keep to a schedule fairly well.
But if I miss my last bus I'm stranded. My route is probably 25 minutes from end to end, serves major centers in Kansas City (like the University of Missouri-KC, the Plaza Shopping District and other areas and the Kansas DMV and county health dept in Kansas. It utilizes half-size coaches some of the time, full-sized ones at other times.
One afternoon, coming back home (getting on at 3:45PM), I was The Passenger. Yesterday (Friday) I was one of three passengers on the 5:10PM run. Before that, I was one of two passengers leaving on the 8AM run in the morning (I want to get on at 7AM and leave at 4:30 or so just to see what a real rush hour crowd is like).
So far, I'm averaging about two passengers (including myself) per commuter run - and people rarely get on or off in the middle. It's an end-to-end kind of thing, except for me.
KC Transit is a little busier. The buses I've ridden in the middle of the day have had up to 6 people on them (but I've only ridden two lines).
Maybe when they do another remake of the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy could, in addition to the ScareCrow, the lion, etc., meet a KC Transit bus driver who says "I want to go see the wizard because I want a passenger."
I appreciate NYCT all the time...when I'm sleeping, when I'm working, when I'm eating, when I'm on the subway, even when I'm face down in the snow after getting beat up and robbed by a bunch of hooligans dressed as NYCT workers. That last one doesn't happen to often...or ever.
"by a bunch of hooligans dressed as NYCT workers."
Or Subtalkers angry about your hogging the railfan window?
:0)
I've learned to not mind anybody positioned by the railfan window. But what I cannot help but mind are people who position themselves by the railfan window, hogging it, and doing the following:
1) extending one or both of their arms for personal comfort
2) not looking out the window but instead spending most of the time talking to friends or reading the newspaper (HAS HAPPENED)
..... Or leaning against the window while facing into the car.
Agreed
>>> Or Subtalkers angry about your hogging the railfan window? <<<
What I like about the rail fan window is that I can lean back against it without worrying about anyone opening the door to pass between cars, and then I can spread open my New York Times to read it. ;-)
Tom
How the hell did someone from Bayside and then from Philadelphia end up in Kansas City? Is the economy in the Northeast THAT bad?
In the 1970s, my family ended up in Tulsa Oklahoma, so I know how you feel. I spent my last two years of high school there. I used to walk the two miles to and from school, and just as you are THE bus passenger, I was THE walker, also known as the crazy guy from New York. And when I did take the bus, the only other people on it were domestic servants traveling from the (poor, Black) northside to the (rich, White) southside. Even the working class has cars in most of the country. They have old, used, bad cars, but they have cars.
There are just very few places left in this country where people on this board can live the way they want to live.
Since cities were designed in the post-World War II era for the automible, getting people back into mass transit is very difficult, with most metro areas being spread out vertically instead of horrizontally, as in New York.
Getting people in those other cities to use trains or buses for things like shopping or entertainment is pretty close to futile, because the malls, box stores, 30-scree movie theaters, etc., have been placed next to the main highways. However, there has been some progress in recent years in getting people out of their cars when they're going to work, since the main job area is likely to be more concentrated, so that rail and bus lines can target those areas, while at the same time the vehicle capacity is limited to the point of intolerence -- i.e. when your average commuter gets so fed up with sitting in traffic they're willing to explore different options.
As urban area populations grow around the country and more and more city centers reach that level where the planners have to admit that the preverbial "just one more highway" won't solve the problem, mass transit will be a growing factor in getting workers downtown in the AM and PM rush. But it's going to be a long time, if ever, before cities outside of the northeast rely on it 24/7/365 as New Yorkers do.
The worst is those who treat you as an outsider and make your life miserable were always outsiders themselves. I bought eight abandonded acres in Warren County, New Jersey. I plowed five acres with small scale machinery building timber stands/Christmas tree farm site only to have everything destroyed because I did not live there. They vandalised my barn and stole tools and fuel. I was often shot at
with guns fired by children encouraged by their parents. When a Lindal/Justus cedar timber house kit was delivered and sat idle for winter months, nothing was touched. Upon completion, they came back on the first day of deer hunting season and I paid dearly for defending myself just as I was about to leave my mother for work in NYC. Some are dead now, some remain in jail and a few loose hate my guts
but they are not welcome and will never come back again.
There are plenty of places for good people to live good lives nearby, especially for members of this board. It'll take a lot of work and heavy machinery to repair the damage...money and time I do not have.
I sock away the AVAs/PLDs, biding my time to have some mid week time to rent or buy a tractor with a front loader. My Christmas tree farm is chock full of ratty Wild Olive....nothing could be used for construction timber. The bad memories never go away.
Perhaps some board members and TA employees could combine resources
and buy big acreage across the river in East Stroudsberg. We build new homes on ten acre lots and then we go for the gold: THE ULTIMATE REDBIRD CLOSED LOOP EXCURSION LINE. There are communities that were built in airports with direct small plane taxiways...we could have a mini-commuter line from our back doors!!! I'd like my own Redbird single but my mountain is too steep. If the neighbors don't like us, we raise the property tax base and bring in 'Money Train' from the CI museum yard. Not so far fetched an idea....I have room for four helipads and a small aircraft runway in my front yard. MAYBE someone can find me a self-propelled single....backyard is reserved as my antenna farm and personal 200 yard range. CI peter
"yer a wacky dude".
But other than that, I've had similar fantasies regarding that kind of rail line. Although mine involve the old Erie line along the Delaware River. Hancock or Narrowsburg areas. I once started writing a story about four guys canoeing down the river finding a secret time portal along the tracks on the PA side. I got as far as them going back to 1910 or so, when there was passenger service on the line, and for some reason or other I stopped writing the story.
The Delaware River valley is just beautiful. When we've gone canoeing, I was always the nut who wanted to climb up to the tracks when a train would be coming. And you know when the train is coming! Lovely, haunting experience, especially at night if you're camping along the river. The dark riverside, starry night, the river rippling by...and a low rumbling is heard deep into the night.
It takes a while but the sound gradually increases. And you eventually see the beams from the locos down the river, maybe disapearing and appearing again as the train got closer. I'm tellin' you bros, it's surreal. The closest I've ever come to actually understanding what "another universe" might actually be like. It's that unworldly.
And the trains were (are?) usually pretty long. Fifty-sixty cars long, easy. The squealing, pulling, stretching sounds come in loud and clear. And it's departure up or down river is the same in reverse. (I like the sonic progression of the whole thing. From start to finish it's a dang impromptu symphony!) Finally, the only thing you hear again is the river.
I was drawn to climb up to those night trains like a moth to a light bulb.
I've taken hikes on the tracks in the daytime too. A train ride up that valley must have been magnificent. I'd give a lot, to be able to take a train from Pavonia Ave to some peaceful river town.
done the delaware...great experience..another decent railfan spot is bear mountain down by the pier at the river..freights run frequently and there is a walkway/tunnel under the tracks..good viewing on either side to the single track..there's a picnic area right there so you can make a day of it..sldo you can view the harlem line across the river..can hear the locos miles away.
Even the working class has cars in most of the country. They have old, used, bad cars, but they have cars.
In some places, transit is so scanty that welfare departments have programs to help people buy cars as a step toward becoming self-sufficient.
No, the economy isn't that bad.
It was a simple, but not easy decision. My wife (a physician - child neurologist)was aggressively recruited by an old mentor of hers. He piled money on top of autonomy on top of supporting her in doing what she wanted to do. At some point it becomes difficult to say no.
Where we live now in KC you can walk to anything you want - two supermarkets, dry cleaning, Radio Shack, restaurants galore, hardware store, drug store, post office, bank. They even play classical music from public loudspeakers on the street. It's wasted, because I'm often the only one walking. It feels weird.
After living in a large house in Philly (we owned two, side by side), moving into a rented 1100 sq. foot apartment (fortunately we didn't have a lot of furniture) felt like checking into a Motel Six.
And I'm always checking where I am. You can walk in and out of Missouri (or Kansas) and not know it.
Wow, I'm surprised that ridership is that low. Even the Suffolk County buses, which supposedly have very low ridership, usually seem busier when I see them.
You need to have schedules with you. Riding KC Transit requires that you know where you're going, have a routine (or plan your trip), and anticipate your connections.
But the fare is $1, and I used it to get to the airport once - it was pretty good.
>>> You need to have schedules with you. Riding KC Transit requires that you know where you're going, have a routine (or plan your trip), and anticipate your connections. <<<
Now you know how I felt when I had to go 11 months without a car here. I am in the same county as the second largest city in the country, but had to put up with hourly bus schedules, with the last run of the only bus within comfortable walking distance at 6:00 P.M. weekdays and 4:00 P.M. on weekends.
I have over 25 MB of bus and rail schedules on my computer which I used to plan a day's trips the previous evening, and on several occasions rode on more than ten buses and trains in a single day for transportation (not rail or bus fanning).
Tom
"Now you know how I felt when I had to go 11 months without a car here. I am in the same county as the second largest city in the country, but had to put up with hourly bus schedules, with the last run of the only bus within comfortable walking distance at 6:00 P.M. weekdays and 4:00 P.M. on weekends. "
I did that for several years myself (I left LA in 1986). In Westwood and downtown, or along Wilshire Blvd. you don't always need to do that. In the San Fernando Valley and other places, you're a stranded duck if you don't.
"I have over 25 MB of bus and rail schedules on my computer which I used to plan a day's trips the previous evening, and on several occasions rode on more than ten buses and trains in a single day for transportation (not rail or bus fanning)."
I hear you!
One of my commuting routes in LA when I worked at Hughes Aircraft Co. was to take the 560 at a quarter to five in the morning, which took me to the LAX bus terminal. There, Line 232 took me to work - but I had to wait up to 30 minutes for it to pull out.
When I went to meetings of a non-profit charity in Signal Hill, I'd often take up to 4 buses - one to two buses to LAX; then the 232 to Long Beach bus terminal, then Long Beach Transit to the address.
I always took a lot of reading with me.
I know what you mean. As an old New Yorker I never lost my feeling for the importance of public transportation. New York's Subway, dirty as it might be, is one hell of an engineering feat and is my favorite part of New York. I always think of it and still love it to death to this very day. On that score New Yorkers should thank their stars.
EXCEPT I CAN'T SEEM TO GET MY BEAUTIFUL SEA BEACH OUT OF THAT DAMN RAT HOLE AND BACK ON THE MANNY B WHERE IT BELONGS.
I really wish that the MTA would build new tunnels for the subway lines that use the Manhattan and Wiliamsburg bridges so that events like the current bridge overhaul which is disrupting the subways can be avoided. Also as a safety measure, since tunnels would be safer than suspension bridges in that that type of bridge is not suitable for railroad traffic. Still, the current mindset is on highwaysand not on mass transit, so therein lies the problem.
I really wish that the MTA would build new tunnels for the subway lines that use the Manhattan and Wiliamsburg bridges so that events like the current bridge overhaul which is disrupting the subways can be avoided. Also as a safety measure, since tunnels would be safer than suspension bridges in that that type of bridge is not suitable for railroad traffic. Still, the current mindset is on highways and not on mass transit, so therein lies the problem.
I really wish that the MTA would build new tunnels for the subway lines that use the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges so that events like the current bridge overhaul which is disrupting the subways can be avoided. Also as a safety measure, since tunnels would be safer than suspension bridges in that that type of bridge is not suitable for railroad traffic. Still, the current mindset is on highways and not on mass transit, so therein lies the problem.
Patience, my friend, patience...
>>> I always took a lot of reading with me. <<<
I personally favored a Walkman.
What really surprised me was that after the first few novelty rides, I avoided the light rail in favor of buses. I found that the bus I took that would stop at the Green Line terminal got downtown faster than getting off, catching the Green Line, changing to the Blue Line and coming up to the street downtown. In the reverse direction, I could never catch up to a bus I missed downtown by taking the light rail, so it made as much sense to wait downtown for the next bus as to take the trains and wait at the Green Line terminal for the same bus. (Also less walking through the stations.)
What does that say about light rail in L.A.?
Tom
Not as efficient as it should be, obviously. But if you lived near it, it would probably be easier to ride it (if it offered you a one-seat ride) than a bus.
If you were using it to transfer to heavy rail going to/from the Valley, I don't think a bus would give you comparable service.
>>> if you lived near it, it would probably be easier to ride it (if it offered you a one-seat ride) than a bus <<<
Obviously if you lived on an LRV line, and your destination was on that same line it would be faster than a parallel bus, but "IF" is such a big word. Because the Green Line runs down a freeway median, hardly anyone lives near it. Most riders come from buses or Park ‘n Ride. The Blue line does have some riders within easy walking distance, but it travels through mostly low density single family housing, so once again more than 50% of its riders come from buses or Park ‘n Ride.
>>> If you were using it to transfer to heavy rail going to/from the Valley, I don't think a bus would give you comparable service. <<<
It does. I would take the bus to downtown L.A. and transfer there to the Red Line. There is no bus that is faster to the Valley from downtown than the Red Line, but that is because when they opened the Red Line to the Valley, they discontinued the parallel freeway bus line (which was faster).
Tom
Riding KC Transit requires that you know where you're going, have a routine (or plan your trip), and anticipate your connections.
But the fare is $1, and I used it to get to the airport once - it was pretty good.
Not bad considering how far the airport is from the city. I was at a conference at an airport hotel back in the late 1980's and thought I had actually gone to Mali or Mongolia. So a $1 fare for such a long trip is a terrific deal.
Agreed.
On weekends it's by demand - meaning you call ahead of time, tell KC Transit when you need to get to the airport, and they tell you when to be at the 10th and Main Transit Mall. Your free transfer from another bus is good on the Airport van and there is no premium fare.
Here in Austin, Texas the buses are still 50cents. One quarter per cent sales tax subsidises them.
What do people do in the Great Hinterlands if they're too chicken to drive, like me?
www.forgotten-ny.com
"What do people do in the Great Hinterlands if they're too chicken to drive, like me?"
They lead extremely restricted lives.
On the other hand, driving is easier (though also more dangerous) with less traffic.
Agreed. My driving lessons are going OK, but I'm grateful I don't have to tackle the likes of Queens Blvd, Broadway (the real Broadway, not the one here in KC), or the Long Island Expressway.
At least you have some buses. The true hinterlands have no buses at all. And taxis, if any, are astronomically expensive because the distances are so great.
Tis true. I was on a business trip once through the Carolinas (and not in the cities, either). If I didn't know in advance whom to call (and it was one person and his cellphone) to come pick me up from the airport and take me into the "back country," I would not even have left the airport.
Depends on where you live. I'd take driving in New York any day of the week over the loonies driving around the Houston area (which is also one of the worst cities as of now for people who don't drive to live).
In a lot of places you can get by Monday-Friday 6 a.n.-6 p.m. by living in the right place, where what limited mass transit there is happens to be nearby, as well as the required shops such as supermarkets. But even in those places nights and weekends can be very limiting, and given the huge parking areas around malls and the stand-alone box stores, just getting in and out of them on foot during the busy seasons can be an adventure.
I was talking about the hinterlands (rural areas), not metro areas such as Houston.
It's much easy driving, as long as it's not snowing. But the danger is greater. There's a high rate of drunken driving. In most small rural towns late on a Saturday night, the biggest cluster of cars is in front of the bar.
Yeah, I never drank when I lived in Minneapolis because I didn't want to drink and drive. Now that I'm in Chicago, I don't have to worry about it and can enjoy a few beers without feeling like I'm endangering anyone other than my friend, Mr. Liver. Although, I was riding in a taxi the other day with Howard Stern on the radio, and he had a guy on who got drunk, fell asleep on a freight rail line and woke up in the hospital with no legs ... glad there are no grade-level tracks in this part of town.
If you really want to see Friday-Saturday driving problems, find neighboring counties that are wet and dry. There are a lot of those in the south, where the usually Baptist (dry) areas meet the usually Catholic (wet) ones, and the usual result is a 1 a.m. or so rollover on the highway by some driver headed back to dryland.
On the plus side, winter driving home from bars down south normally isn't as hazardous as trying to drive home in northern states, though for a lot of bar patrons in those areas, a weekend ice storm is big trouble, because if they can see the yellow line on the highway, it's still OK to do 65 mph on the way home.
"On the plus side, winter driving home from bars down south normally isn't as hazardous as trying to drive home in northern states, though for a lot of bar patrons in those areas, a weekend ice storm is big trouble, because if they can see the yellow line on the highway, it's still OK to do 65 mph on the way home."
Heh! From what I hear, in Buffalo NY, 65 mph is far too slow for cabbies even if you can't see any markings at all.
If you really want to see Friday-Saturday driving problems, find neighboring counties that are wet and dry. There are a lot of those in the south, where the usually Baptist (dry) areas meet the usually Catholic (wet) ones, and the usual result is a 1 a.m. or so rollover on the highway by some driver headed back to dryland.
Similar problems were often seen years ago when different states often had different drinking ages.
>>> On the plus side, winter driving home from bars down south normally isn't as hazardous as trying to drive home in northern states, <<<
I don't know if that is always true. I was in Huntsville, Alabama once when they had 1/8 inch of snow, and slightly below freezing temperature. It seemed like there was an accident on every corner.
Tom
That's what I was referring to with the line about the ice storms and the 65 mph speed limit. The south generally has more problems with freezing rain than snow, but either way, a lot of people either act like they can just drive normally and don't leave extra space for the road conditions, or completely freak out and jam on the brakes anywhere near another car, and send themselves into spins.
>>> What do people do in the Great Hinterlands if they're too chicken to drive, like me? <<<
They do as my uncle who was a transplanted Brooklyn dweller did.
1. Purchase a house on a bus line which went downtown.
2. Pester co-workers for rides.
3. Give his wife a new car every few years so she felt obligated to chauffeur him around.
Tom
My friend Gerry moved to Cold Spring Harbor (from Park Slope) 3 years ago and he STILL doesn't drive. He and his wife synchronize their schedules so they're on the same train going home. That way, she can drive them the 2-3 miles home from the station...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is amazing how many people in the Midwest (outside Chicago) and the Southwest are ignorant about mass transit. For example, my friend in Dallas was surprised to learn that one can travel from the suburbs to the Chicago Loop by train!
I do appreciate it no doubt about it but its the inconsistency of the MTA, some of its services and the continuing fall of the words 'rapid transit' that gets me fired up :-\.
Judging from what you described, I now see why some cities (in fact, many of them) outside of the Northeast/Atlantic Seaboard have transit bus services that are more reflective of Greyhound (Long Distance) than the MBTA and MTA New York City Bus; that's not to mention there being no subways or "heavy rail" for that matter. Granted, their metropolitan areas are not nearly as big as that of the Northeast, but I have to wonder when I look at some cities and find that, when it comes to commuting, US highways have about the same strategic importance as do the interstate highways (chalk this view up to my growing up in The Bronx for all of my life - there's only one US highway that goes thru the borough, and it's not even referred to as a "highway." On the other hand, I go down south and see that almost every other street has some US highway nomenclature attached to them.)
There are two US highways in the Bronx: US 1 and US 9. As you say, their route designations are of no importance whatsoever within the city.
There are two US highways in the Bronx: US 1 and US 9. As you say, their route designations are of no importance whatsoever within the city.
I know that basically Boston Road and its connections to the GWB are US 1.
Where does US 9 come through?
U.S. 9 runs in the north, alongs South Broadway to Tarrytown, then heading upstate, via. Peekskill. Going the other direction, it "meets" with U.S. 1 at the GWB, then is known at Routes 1/9 in New Jersey. When the GSP and NJT meet at Perth Amboy, U.S. 9 runs near the GSP and dead ends at the southern tip of NJ.
Thank you. You reminded me of something that I had forgotten. I don't drive upstate too much.
Broadway, from 178th/179th to the Yonkers line.
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!
Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
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Stopped by the LIRR station in Massapequa to buy an off peak ten trip to Penn Sta. The ten trip ticket is now the same as the ones you buy from the TVM's. In other words, the old style white colored ten trip with coupon that conductor tears off on the first trip is gone. It's now a greenish colored ticket with the MTA "pac man" logos on it.
That also means the days of ticket agents stamping the ticket with a dater is also gone. Even the receipts are printed by computer, just as the ticket. Seems like the computer age just claimed another railroad tradition.
Bill "Newkirk"
from station agents?
not true
At flatbush they always date my ticket through the stamper
and you are right about the 10 trips though
"from station agents?
not true
At flatbush they always date my ticket through the stamper."
Maybe Flatbush Ave is next in line. Time will tell.
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess its sad to see another old-fashioned railroad thing pass. Do you remember pre-Amtrak, when if you bought a ticket for a multi-railroad ride, it would sepaarte pieces to be punched and lifted by conductors every time the railroad changed? A trip from NYC to Miami meant stubs for the Pennsy, RF&P, ACL and FEC. Not to mention sleeping accomodations. Old cartoons used to make fun of passengers running for trains with yards of ticket stubs flapping in the breeze.
This will be a saving for the LIRR because they won't have to print and stock such a variety of ticket forms. My question is whether they'll actually attempt any kind of single-use ticket control, which they don't have now.
RF&P??
Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac, the bridge line from Washington to Richmond.
Thank you.
My wife finally went to Genovese and got the film developed that I took at Branford during Autumn in NY an SubTalk at Branford Day and I scanned and posted them to my Angelfire account. I will delete them from angelfire in about a week so if you want to save them SAVE THEM TO YOUR OWN COMPUTER!!!
The pictures are at:http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/branford.html
Nice pics!
Yes, I concur very nice pixs.
Hey posters now you can post "Sparky" on your dart board.
:-) :-) :-)
Hey that's me in the green & yellow A's hat. We were waiting to be rescued when the pole jumped.
["Hey that's me in the green & yellow A's hat. We were waiting to be rescued when the pole jumped"]
Shhhh... The public ain't supposed to know that things like that happen at the museum. But it was kind of neat that a 1908 convertible BRT streetcar (4573) came to the rescue in 2002!!!
Hey Sarge,
4573 is of 1904 vintage!!! >GG<
:-) Sparky
Funny, I always told the people it was 1908. I just looked in Branford's guidebook, "Ride Down Memory Lane", and it says 1906 for 4573 which is exactly between our dates!!
Well I made you look at the BIBLE.
To be accurate: 775 is 1904 Jewett & 4573 a 1906 Laconia.
You want total accuracy at 0619? >GG<
;-) Sparky
I thought it was 06
i,ve been going to the R42 pics section of the site and spotted a pic
that,s in the wrong section.the caption says R42@dekalb avenue.(M/N/R)
photo by trevor logan(19k).when i looked at the pic,it was an R40m,not
an R42.it,s on R42 photos 1-16 the 1st pic.hopefully this can be fixed
til next time
THanks but in the future-- please use Feedback if you want to get my attention, specifically with corrections or submissions.
Here's a shot I took on last Friday:
Ahh, a wondeful shot on the Brighton line! Nice pic of the Q express.
That's great! I so wanted to be out taking photos on Friday, but I had to go to work. Did you take any more photos? Can you post them? Thanks!
---Brian
Hi Brian, Here are a few more pictures from last Friday:
-Larry
Typical Brighton Day----drab, rainy, snowy, sloshy, and generally pitiful. Except for the fact that the Brighton was and is my second favorite line (which should shock the hell out of a lot of you), I posted only so I can have the Brighton aficianados get a case of apoplexy and respond in kind.
It was your favorite line if you were going to Ebbets Field, anyway.:)
He could of taken the IRT and walk 1/2 mile
I alreay know the Brighton is your second favorite to your Sea Beach, however if you had TRUE hate and if you really thought it the Brighton was pitiful [you rank it SECOND], it would be dead last in terms of favorites BUT my Brighton does that to people, you hate on it so much you just gotta love it :0). Our Brighton NEVER has drab and CAN'T be pitiful, we rule the land HAHAHAHA! Myself, Kool-D, Brighton Exp Bob and others will get you ;-). Those pics that NotchIt put up here is just wonderful showing local AND express running :-).
"....showing local AND express running...." Yeah, rub it in real good.
Heeheehee! The black and white makes it look so much better.
At least no smog
Someone still photographs in B&W. Kewl. What film do you use, and do you do your own developing?
While I do, do my own B&W film developing, these shots are actually digital color shots. I didn't like the color balance, so while I was playing in Photoshop, I tried converting it to grayscale and it looked better. Then I just added a slight sepia tint to the image. Below you see the original image compared to the grayscale one:
-Larry
Very nice work. Outstanding use of monotone. Unfortunately, very little appreciation for b&w now, IMO.
Paul, for some of my experiments in monotone, compare the photos available on these links:
Rust in Peace (color)
Rust in Peace (black and white)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very nice, Chris. In monotone the effect is absolutely gothic.
I never have quite decided whether I like the color or monotone better... overall, I guess I've settled on the color, since that's the version of the page I have openly linked on my website. But I haven't played with sepia yet.
I haven't been by NatCap in a while so I don't know if that hulk is still there or if it's been moved as part of the work now going on there... a new station/visitor's center is being built by Montgomery County at another location as part of an upgrade to the park and some new trackage is being constructed as well. The photo of grading work that's on the front of the current issue of The Headway Recorder isn't specific as to its location and I don't know the plans well enough to know if the PCC remains are affected.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I love shooting in B&W, I learned all my photo skills from shooting to dark room in B&W, even loaded my own film. Too bad I no longer have the room or the money to keep it up. Never thought to photoshop to gray scale, thanks for the tip.
I'm in the process of digitizing some old b/w neg. film from the 70's and got the idea.
I used to always shoot my subway shots in b/w, (although I did do some color slide film).
Something about the monochrome look...
-Larry
Larry, maybe it's my monitor, but the 'sepia tint' looks more like a red than a beige color. IMHO, I like your original B&W version better.
Doug, scroll down...
The first image is the raw color image.
It is too red, under it is the final b/w version.
-Larry
Yeah, I did...and I like the B&W image better (as I said in my original post).
I know that I have not been in NYC for a while...but why does the local have "S" on the rear sign? Is that meant to be there?
The top photo and the first one you posted are very, very nice. Thanks!
NotchIt, one more item. Have you seen Greller's book on subway cars of the BMT? It has a scene there with 3 Brighton trains with the caption: action on the Brighton in 1953 (the photo must have been taken on a holiday, hence a Standard is running express and a Triplex is running local). Well, that top photo, with 3 Brighton trains, could be entitled, "Action on the Brighton, Winter 2003". I hope our webmaster, Dave, can add it to the website photos.
Larry,
Tremendous, fantastic, massive, monumental, stupendous, mighty, monstrous, colossal, prodigious.
Really enjoyed them. You Brighton guys, have the best in SNOW.
SBF, no comparison to your line. Sorry guy. >GG<
;-) Sparky
That's ok Sparky because my line is the sunshine and puffy cloud line. We are the line of summer, the beach, the Cyclone, Nathan's and the Brooklyn ball club. We are, that is, if the bus is running from 86th Street or we all have a strong set of legs for a walking marathon. Damn the TA.
Yes, but that's the beauty of living on the Right Coast, the variety
of weather. No MONSON RAINS ... NO SHAKEY SIDE ... And even with it's
flaws, a transit system that does give us a relieve from SMOG.
You've been a left coaster too long to appreciate the variety and
nothing beats a crisp clear snowy or frigid day in New York. When
you can breath real air less the toxins from automobiles. We're
not an auto dependent city. And then there's the City of ANGELS???
or is is the City of GANGS???
New York it's a Hell of a Good Town. If it wasn't why would you
visit the good coast so often. Never been and have no interest in
visiting the left coast.
;-) Sparky
I don't think that the smog made it up to Arcata or Crescent City or wherever Fred lives.
Fred must be at least 600 miles north of LA.
Fred lives less then 20 miles from LA in Arcadia, home of Santa Anita Park, just SE of Pasadena. SMOG VALLEY
We haven't had smog in a dog's age. Bob blew town nine years ago and is living in a time warp. We are finally going to get some rain the next few days. The weather has been in the high 80's for the last month. AND NO SMOG JUST BEAUTIFUL SUNSHINE---truly God's country.
SBF ^^^ Don't you tire of the same weather ALL THE TIME?
Don't you appreciate VARIETY? Well the only alternates
on the left coast, is it shakes and/or burns. :-(
~ Sparky
Right now Sparky it is raining cats and dogs. My golf day is ruined. Is that variety enough for you?
Right now Sparky it is raining cats and dogs. My golf day is ruined.
Ah, I was in Southern California for for the last week of Jan, and the part of the first week of Feb when I drove to Las Vegas, and the weather was beautiful in CA, didn't see rain once, and the temp was in the 80's. Couldn't ask for better weather.
Now it's back to reality here in NY with the cold and snow.
It stopped just long enough for me to get to the golf course and get in my nine holes ( I always play nine, never 18 holes). Of course, I played like S$%t and made only one par, but I did get my golf in. I will play Thursday weather permitting and will probably play better. I usually do when I play the second time in a week's schedule.
Fred goes to the Minature Golf Course outat Whittier Narrows Park near El Monte
ROTFLMAO
Once again the mumblings of an elephant----errrrr, check that, a donkey.
Yup, Steve did it again with whatever rotfelo means.
ROTFLMAO stands for Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off. I do that a lot when I start reading what you two have to say.
Now that its been defined, I'll start using it also. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Now Sparky... I don't think ANYONE went rolling on the floor when Steve dumped the air on the Arnine, not even you :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anything, everyone fell off their seats from the sudden stop.:)
What can I say? Lou says, "Brake," so I move the brake valve to probably 8 o'clock. Nothing after a few seconds. "More brake". 7 o'clock. Still nothing. "More Brake...LAP!!!" Too late. By the time I moved it to lap, the brakes grabbed. You live and you learn. Lou is a very patient instructor.
Well Steve, it doesn't even take hearing what Bob has to say to get me ROTFLMAO. All I have to do is look at him.
You two would make a great comedy team. You could play the straight man.
"It stopped just long enough for me to get to the golf course and get in my nine holes"
Great, When you head east to ride the Cyclone and the fragmented Sea Beach Line, you can tee up with hizoner, Mike Bloomberg !
Bill "Newkirk"
My kind of Republican----a convert.
No just a rich man playing games
^^^"My golf day is ruined. Is that variety enough for you?"^^
Whatsa matter, you can not play with your balls. ROTFL!!!
;-) Sparky
"Whatsa matter, you can not play with your balls. ROTFL!!!"
Now, in the movie "Goldfinger", you know what Oddjob does to golf balls!
It will burn all summer, and then when it rains the hills will flood from the Mountains to the Sea, and some dumb kids, will try to surf board the LA River. Happens all the time.
Who the hell cares what you think. You showed your true colors when you moved to the South----CONFEDERATE.
I ADMIT I AM A YANKEE. There were quite a few rebels in Southern California during the Civil War and the only reason they were quiet was because of the Army
Just give it time. In two years you'll be serving guests salt pork, turnip greens, and grits and demanding that all your guests refer to you as Colonel.
Don't forget the onions.:)
Send that rain our way over the Continental Divide. We need the moisture.
Right on, I'd take New York over LA anyday, even with the snow!
As long as it's SHOVELED and PLOWED off our roads and sidewalks, snow is a beautiful thing. :-)
Right on, I'd take New York over LA anyday, even with the snow!
HeHe. I love New York, but right now Los Angeles is looking pretty good too me. I was there last week, enjoying 85 and 90 degrees, enjoying the water, and the long Union Pacific freights, and stepped off the plane on Friday in JFK to a snowstorm.....
Well all in all I wouldn't trade New York in.....and I like snow also....but right now I am really getting sick of the cold weather....I welcome spring soon.
I have to high-five you later, Sparky....good comeback...:)
Thanks Bro ~
:-) Sparky
Ah yes! The Slum-Beacdh line, home of Parkside Ave station imitations, leaky and dark mezzanines, no express service (a removed track desn't help), the inability get to the Cyclone, or Nathans directly, hmmmm, I should quit while I'm ahead.
You are so evil Kool-D ;-). In all fairness, Fred DID call the Brighton pitiful; see what happens when you mess with the Brighton men Fred BWAHAHAHA :-P.
Fred did call our line pitiful? I hope when he rides the LA Metro, a Russian performer with his trumpet and amplifier walks into the same car as Fred and starts blaring in his face.
Pitiful? Just a play on words. Fact is the Brighton is second only to the Sea Beach in my pantheon of great subway lines with the West End very close behind. As far as the LA Metro Red Line I hardly get into LA and don't ride that train. It is all underground and has absolutely no variety whatsoever. It is very clean, though, and no rats as of yet.
Meanwhile our priveledged interloper, the W train, gets priority over the N and the R. And the W gets its stations remodeled, and gets to run to Manhattan on weekends, unlike the N. Today at 34th street, they let TWO W trains cross in front of us. That northbound R I was on was slow, and I just knew there was an N suffering behind it.
Granted, the first W was out of service, but when the 2nd W came in across the platform and heard its doors close I was like what the *!
Took 25 min just to get from Canal to 49th on that slow R train. 8 min of that spent sitting on an R at 34th!
And while we were waiting at 34th, and when I got off at 49th, I could see an R40 N train sitting behind that R.
I think in the next mayoral election we should all have a write-in for Sea Beach Fred. He is 100 percent right about the way the TA treats the N, and its time we do something about it!
Thanks Qtraindash7, I needed a shot of support. Why they treat the N like that confounds me. Ok, they may have lower ridership than some of the other lines, but to let those stations run down like that, and to allow the garbage to pile up? They could do a lot better for my train that that. Perhaps next year it will get back on the bridge, go to Coney Island again, and maybe let the Sea Beach run as an express on its express tracks once in awhile. I can dream can't I?
Maybe if your Friend George W and his oil cronies, follow advise of our NATO Allies and hold off, instead of Cheney and Rice's oil cronies wanting more oil, they would give it more for domestic transportation l;ike the Subways.
According to todays Washington Post. THE USA is being held in its lowest esteem by our Allies since Nixon and the Viet nam War.
One photo had a sign and said bomb Houston, they have oil too
Frankly I don't give a damn about what the Europeans think about us. If they had any balls they would have stood up 64 years ago to the Fascists and prevented a lot of your friends and relatives from dying an ignominous death. And far as your French and German friends are concerned, I never liked those bastards and my instincts about them were correct all along. We saved the damn frogs twice last century and rebuilt Deutschland Uber from the ruins up. If that's the way they pay us back, well FUCK THEM.
Amen, Fred!
Typical Right Wing talk, Without allies who will watch our back. Not the Oil Companies who this fuckin war is about. Ask Cheney and Rice, where they made their money. And why is not the Justice Dept looking under profeteering. The strike in Ven is over, but still the Oil Companies raised their prices 25 cents in 2 weeks, and the price oil oil barrow went down 3 cents.
Republicans, Insurance Companiesw, Oil Companies and Banks-SCREW THE WORKING CLASS
Well I just knew it would be a matter of time before Robert Frenchy Von Rosenthal starting defending his European buddies ad nauseum. The rise is gas prices is cyclical and will go down again. What happened in Venezuela has little to do with it. And stop knocking those who make money. If it is done legally more power to them. It's those who make it on the backs of others, and those who would rather sponge off the government for years that frosts me.
I have a book I will recommend to you but I can't remember it just now. I do know it by Karl Marx, one of your German friends.
Das Kapital?
I was pulling Bob's leg on that. I know the title and it was "The Communist Manifesto", but yours might be even better for Colonel Frenchy Von Rosenthal
I'd settle for the N running expres along Broadway and over the bridge the way I remember it way back when.
You Brighton guys, have the best in SNOW. SBF, no comparison to your line.
Ahem.
Fred would be happy and would love to say "take that Brighton guys" when he sees the nice pics on his Sea Beach ;-). In all fairness, those are some good pics David and you got 3 different car classes for each picture in the snow.
The second pic looks similar to Parkside Av on the Brighton line but of course the missing CI bound track shows the differences.
"The second pic looks similar to Parkside Av on the Brighton line but of course the missing CI bound track shows the differences."
You didn't noticed the absence of switches (including a double crossover), plus the distance between "Prospect Park" and "Parkside Ave" is a bit too close. These are what's lacking on the Slum-Beach line.
Nice pictures though.
Of course I did and plus it said N, that's all the proof I need 8-). I admit those are good pics on the Sea Beach. I rubbed it in in a previous post that we have local AND express trains [there's a pic of both local & express]. If you see NotchIt's second set of pics on the Brighton, it looks splendid and the black & white gives it a better feel!
Sorry, David, but your photos take second place. There is too little activity and too much emptiness in them, what with the missing center tracks and center-track trains. But, hey, the photos are nice nonetheless. Thanks for posting them.
I sense a degree of bias in your observations. The Sea Beach is serene -- a perfect match for a snowstorm. That's not emptiness you see -- that's snow.
You'll be glad to know that Goumba Tony and I got some shots on the Brighton line today. I will say that the view from the north end at Parkside rivals the view from the south end at New Utrecht.
Did you also try the north end of Beverley Road? Or at the Manhattan Bound Ave H, where you can see Manhattan Bound trains as far as Neck Road? TOTALLY AWESOME PLACE TO TAKE SHOTS THERE, THAT'S 3.5 MILES DOWN ON A CLEAR DAY.
Of course I'm biased, David. But in addition to my obvious bias, there is something else: As a railfan, you don't really think serenity is a pair of abandoned tracks, do you? But hey, I've been waiting for you to go film the Brighton. Take Kool D's advice, try shooting from Av. H!
Both Mark Feinman and Sadsdam have great flicks of the Brighton
Great pix wish it was in color
I rode the 2 and 5 GO yesterday and I saw 2 sets of R62's running on the 5; in which I rode one of then from 149 St/GC to Manhattan. The two sets:1351-1355,1431-1435 and I only caught one 5 car link on the other which was 1546-1550. I'll post the whole story on /bustalk later on.
R62 1354(5)
I had both of those sets today.
Saturday evening about 7:30 PM there was a n/b 1 train pulling into 79 Street. As the train entered the station there was a man laying down across the track. The train didn't stop in time. I was on the s/b platform. At first I thought someone on the train pulled the emergency cord. When when the train didn't move after a few minutes, I turned on my scanner and heard what had happened. It took about 75 minutes before service could resume. Channels 2 and 5 had their film crews from the other platform taking pictures. Police at one point had to get the large plastic bags from the porter's room to cover the body. They got the body off the roadbed. They wanted EMS to remove the body since it was in plain sight. But EMS would not respond until a ME came to the scene first. And the ME was nowhere to be found on a saturday evening!
Yeah, PBD and myself heard about it on the radio at Mott. Later when I passed on the northbound express tracks, I saw the sand where the body was.
Da Beastmaster
Hey partner! Were there any beasts going up the Lex? RTO Control was announcing that as a service reroute. Don't see how in the middle of this GO, unless the track was available for use.
-Stef
Not that I know of. Ill bet that a couple of trains were turned back south for service.
Da Beastmaster
I'm not sure what GO's were running on the IRT outside of the one in the Bronx. Maybe for the first 15-20 minutes 2 trains were rerouted over the east side. But after a while it was just a matter of sending everything up the express track from 34 St to 96 St. Several T/O's were complaining about congestion.
No, On Lex Line we had our own Problems. I was stuck in relay North of 149 GC do to a #4 train with a door problem at 138 St. Also all trains where on 1 TK from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge with trains being held by track workers North of Brooklyn Bridge which caused Downtown train to back up from Bleeker ST.
At least one 2 train was re-routed.
Did you notice there was no Westside TSS around to respond to 79 Bway?? They had to call a TSS from the #4 Line to respond.
I wonder where they were hiding.......
Da Beastmaster
I was at 149th St on the 6 when all hell was breaking loose, it must have made for a fun day....not. Glad I wasn't down there.
-Stef
You had your fun last monday. :-)
Yeah! Combine that with an already busy day, turnstiles that wouldn't cooperate (dirty), and no lunch made for an absolute irritable day. I won't be picking that booth again!
-Stef
Hopefully you found something on the open bid!
And I missed all of the drama by one day! For the information of those here, I was da Douce Man's Lunch Relief on Friday Night.... One of those rare meetings of SubTalkers in the booth. It was a pleasure being able to meet people I consider friends.
-Stef
Did he enjoy lunch? :)
---Brian
Oh yes, he got a Subway Sandwhich while I was holding down shop.
-Stef
Nothing like going to the company store!
Amen!
I do believe in BMT sandwhiches, made up of a train of sausages....
-Stef
Another 12-9 on the 1 train, wow. It was cleared away faster than I thought it would.
At least 2 film crews and photographers were trying to take pictures from the other platform.
You always have those who will get anything they can :0).
They wanted EMS to remove the body since it was in plain sight. But EMS would not respond until a ME came to the scene first. And the ME was nowhere to be found on a saturday evening!
Bureaucracy at its finest!
Or the ME had a hot date and left his cell phone and pager turned off.
The officer who asked for that to be done was wrong, and EMS was correct. The man was dead at the scene, and it's an ME case. The ME deputy not answering his/her pager or coming promptly is a subject for discussion between police, TA and ME supervisors.
The officer wanted the body removed because people on the other platform were able to SEE the body. Several people were grossed out when they realised they were looking at pieces of a man's body. Having the media there didn't help too much.
That was the 2nd 12-9 for Saturday. There was one about 8:00 AM on the C train at Van Siclen Ave.
Is it just me, of is the number of deaths on the subway way up from the past? Thank God New York City has historically has a low suicide rate, since the preferred method seems to be to ruin everyone's commute. The off platform dive seems to be relatively foolproof. You don't hear of many failed attempts.
Perhaps this is result of the "personal responsibility" crusade. You lose your job, you are out of money, you are about to be evicted. Forget about help from family or the community, there is no such thing as either anymore. Just decide it's all your fault and you are better off dead.
In any event, between the 12-9s, the employee deaths, the possibility of war and terror attacks, life on the trains is getting a lot more insecure. Crime is down, but I never once witnessed, let alone experienced, a single instance of crime in 20 years on the subway, so that doesn't seem like a difference to me.
Perhaps this is result of the "personal responsibility" crusade. You lose your job, you are out of money, you are about to be evicted. Forget about help from family or the community, there is no such thing as either anymore. Just decide it's all your fault and you are better off dead.
I think there's a lot of truth to that. And speaking as somebody who has been out of a job, out of money with no help from friends or family, and almost having been evicted, it's a certain type of hell I wouldn't wish on anybody. Add that to the fact that I've had recurrent bouts with clinical depression throughout my life, and it's not much of a stretch for me to see how somebody could feel they have no way out except via suicide.
I think it's compounded by the fact that we live in a society that places such a high value on economic status, and that we're practically brainwashed from childhood with the American myth of, "If you work hard enough, you can accomplish anything." The unspoken flip side to that, of course, is that if you're down on your luck and need a helpng hand, you obviously haven't been working hard enough and therefore don't deserve a helping hand. In many ways, it's the old Puritan work ethic carried through to its logical conclusion, and it's a shame that it still forms such large part of our political idealogy.
But all that is a discussion probably best left for another time and place. Suffice it to say that, regardless of the circumstances surrounding this particular incident, it's an incredible shame that another person felt that they had utterly no other place to turn except for the railbed of a subway station.
Incidentally, I rode the (1) train through that station around that same time, but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. But then, I was likely lost in my own thoughts and probably not paying attention. The only unusual thing I noticed was that I picked up a southbound (3) train at 110th (I actually though it was a (1) train until I was already on board), which was running on the local track until 34th Street, where it jumped over to the express track.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I think it's compounded by the fact that we live in a society that places such a high value on economic status, and that we're practically brainwashed from childhood with the American myth of, "If you work hard enough, you can accomplish anything." The unspoken flip side to that, of course, is that if you're down on your luck and need a helpng hand, you obviously haven't been working hard enough and therefore don't deserve a helping hand. In many ways, it's the old Puritan work ethic carried through to its logical conclusion, and it's a shame that it still forms such large part of our political idealogy.
In a perverse sort of way, this kind of attitude may be less pronounced in New York than in other places. What with its huge array of social services, New York is relatively welcoming to people who are down and out, whether that's from their own fault or not.
Years ago, when I still worked Off-B'way, most of that work was seassonal - season ran from September to late May/early June. As a result, when summer came I was unemployed (with work lined up for the next September). The wonderful people at the local Unemployment Office were enough to make me contemplate walking in and "readjusting" their attitude. Even then, the prevalent attitude was 'it must be you, or something you did, that has resulted in your needing money from the government'.
Is it just me, of is the number of deaths on the subway way up from the past? Thank God New York City has historically has a low suicide rate, since the preferred method seems to be to ruin everyone's commute. The off platform dive seems to be relatively foolproof. You don't hear of many failed attempts.
Perhaps this is result of the "personal responsibility" crusade. You lose your job, you are out of money, you are about to be evicted. Forget about help from family or the community, there is no such thing as either anymore. Just decide it's all your fault and you are better off dead.
I don't believe that the 12-9 rate actually has increased, at least not to any significant extent. It might be that suicides get more attention now that there's less violent crime.
I believe that there have been (7) 12-9s this year. Of the last (5):
1) The one at Herald Square was a jumper
2) The one at 47th-50th St. was an accident.
3) The one at 1st Ave (L Line) A young girl had a siezure and fell in front of a train (she survived).
4) The one on the C is unknown how the woman got onto the tracks.
5) .............................................................
Hence, 12-9 is not always a suicide.
I just feel bad for the T/O. I hear it was someone I know.
Once you pull a full service, there isn't anything you can do beyond that. NOTHING you can do will make it stop any faster. Hope the poor bastard knows that. I've known a few motormen that had 12-9's and it DOES screw you up. Thinking some way, some how you could have changed it. I'm GRATEFUL that in my own short career, never happened to me. But for anyone who stays on the job, it's only a matter of time before it's yours. :(
YOU ARE SO WRONG!!!!!!
There is something you can do beyond full service. It's called "EMERGENCY". And if you don't take an emergency brake when you have a 12-9, you're going to see the DA!
Geez ... well, so much for policy. Yes, I'm aware of the policy and was going to say that at first. But with the "Buster Brown shoes" on today's subway cars (I'm sure Train Dude will pop in and correct me if I'm wrong) you don't get as much Ooomph from the composite shoes as you did from the old cast irons. With CAST IRON shoes, Emergency WAS the answer. That's what WE were taught too. I never DID like the idea of the Buster Browns, they don't GRAB like the old shoes.
But I wrote what I wrote in the mindset of so many motormen and railroad engineers where the dynamic gives you a SLIGHTLY shorter stopping distance than straight air although it's a complicated move. The reason why I said that though was to illustrate what goes through the mind of someone who DOES have someone leap in their face. You sit there thinking about braking rates and "if I'd only done a full service, I might not have" ... shoulda coulda woulda ... that's what pours through their minds - for some, for the rest of their life.
But yes, you're right - that IS the policy ...
I know what you mean. Several years ago while I was coming home from work, I was waiting for a friend of mine at the Broadway-Junction station on the A. I was going home and he would be on his last run as a T/O. His train never came. I took the C train to Euclid and asked the dispatcher what happened. He told me that my friend was involved in a 12-9 south of 34/8. There was an unauthorized male customer walking on the roadbed and my firnd's train sideswipped him. After getting info from the dispatcher I called his wife at home and told her what happened. So that she wouldn't be worried when he was not home in time.
Can be found here...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/culvershuttle/culver.html
I was about to post this, but webmaster Kevin beat me to it. All I can say is WOW! Very nice, very complete page in the spirit of what Joe Brennan likes to do with abandoned stations.
Here is the clickable link.
You may also like to look at this contemporaneous description of the Culver Shuttle's last days and closing from the November 1975 Third Rail.
Those images also show the remains of the original surface ROW.
Excellent and sad page. If only they had delayed demolition 2 more years, the line could have been saved. I've always had fantasies of rehabbing the old shuttle structure with 2 tracks and using it to route M trains to Ditmas Ave.
If the Manny B's severest problems has surfaced a decade earlier forcing partial closing of the bridge at the start of the 1970s instead of in the 1980s, the Culver line might have been saved, since it would have provided B train riders an alternate route via the F train to the West End stations or Sixth Ave.
The photos were interesting to look at, especailly comparing 1985 to 2003.
I've heard this possibility proposed before, and I still dismiss it as fallacy. Massive work would have needed to be done to make West End trains run along the Culver ROW to Church Ave. It would be almost impossible to get approved as a permanent solution, but a temporary one? Keep dreaming. Assuming that the West End trains ran express from Church Ave to Jay St, it would still be a slower ride into Manhattan than a rerouted West End train up Broadway.
Well, it's definitely too late now. But if the bridge problems had surfaced just after the Chrysite Street connection was finished and the brand new Sixth Ave.-DeKalb connection had to be shut down, it would have been a huge embarrassment for both Lindsey, Ronan and Rockefeller. Embarrass enough politicans at a high ennough level, and sometimes money pops out.
Reworking the Culver Shuttle in 1970 or 71 so that B trains could reverse run from Church Ave. to Ft. Hamlinton Pkwy on the West End line would have been a quick and dirty solution to the problem, even if it required building a new flying junction between Ditmas and Church. Or it could have just been kept open as is to allow for Sixth Ave.-West End service if the line was cut back to 36th St.-Coney Island due to the bridge problems.
Once the Manny B was back in service, the Culver might have died anyway, since its usefulness would have been downgraded again. But it could have served a purpose if the repair work on the East River crossing had been mandated while the line was still around.
To The List:
As of February 4, the R-143s continue to roll in and we can confirm the transfer of all R-40Ms through 4521 to Coney Island for the N and also Diamond Q. 4522-4549 remain at East New York.
This may soon spell the end for R-32s on the N (and sometimes W)--observations would be appreciated.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for the update.
There was at least one R-32 train running on the N today.
Make that two - only because i had two different ones today.
Thanks, gentlemen!
Please keep an eye out for them.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
There was also at least one R-40M set on the N and at least one R-40 set on the W. (I realize we're hunting for R-32's but I thought some might be interested.)
Off in an entirely different neck of the woods, I saw a orange-stickered (Jerome-based) R-33 set on the 5 at South Ferry (from a 1) and, a few hours later, I rode one from Union Square to 149-GC. I couldn't make out the car numbers at South Ferry so I don't know if this was one set or two. The makeshift crew room at 149-GC was a set of black-stickered R-33's signed for 5 service, parked on the upper level middle track. (Incidentally, why not change the signs so passengers don't try to get on?)
The 5 was using the 4 line equipment, just like the last time when this GO was in effect. Change the rollsigns for what? The only doors open on the "office train" is right in the middle where the crews stayed. Yes, I saw some people jump on the train, but quickly left when they found out it was not in service.
Da Beastmaster
"The 5 was using the 4 line equipment, just like the last time when this GO was in effect."
I should note that R33s and and R62s were used on the 5. Sorry, no R142a's.
Da Beastmaster
Change the signs to "not in service." No need to confuse the masses needlessly -- they're confused enough already.
Platform conductors and other operating personnel took care of that in a hurry.
Da Beastmaster
'Not In Service' is a long haul from any of the Lex signs on the rollsign. And you want to change 20 of them so as not to confuse people?
Ain't worth it.
If the train's sitting there all day, don't you think the signs should be changed? The trains running on the 5, which are normally assigned to the 4, were signed properly. If not to the proper setting, at least to obvious gobbledygook so no one takes the signs seriously. Or use an R-142 train.
No. If people really want to run to a mostly empty train with the doors closed in the hope that it will magically go into service just for them, why should I deprive myself of the entaertainment value as they splat into the doors?
Besides, working on the assumption that people coming off a 5 at 149/GC really want to go up White Plains Road, accesible only from the lower level (or a shuttle bus on the street), why would they think that a train in the express track on the upper level would get them anywhere useful?
My favorite is when a train with "not in service" on the front pulls into a station, and even slows for the station, and everyone starts running for the doors, and look so disappointed, upset, and even confused when the train keeps going throught the station.
I always think to myself, "Uhh, duh, the train said it was out of service."
Other times you are on a station like like let's say Ralph Ave on the Fulton Line, and let's say an F or something other than a C (or A) pulls into the station (there for equipment move or something), and everyone runs to the train as it enters ready to jump on, even though the train is a route that they never get onto there, and even a different color, and then also look puzzled as the train just rides through the station without stopping. Obviously it wasn't the train they were looking for anyway!
My ultimate favorite though is when, let's picture the above scenario again, with the same train and station, except this time the train actually stops. The conductor may yell something at the top of his lungs over and over like, "This is an F train running on the C line and making all C stops.", and the opposite then happens, the people then don't get on the train, and also stand there in utter confusion, even though it is quite obvious that the train will go to where they are trying to go if the conductor says it's stopping where the C (the train they were waiting for) usually stops.
Although that is one of the fun things in subfanning, when one line is routed onto another line for a reroute. I then love standing in the doorways watching people's reaction when let's say a 5 is making stops on the west side line or something. Sometimes, I even jusmp on a train (if I have time) that I wasn't planning to take, just to ride the "wrong" train run on a line. When I was a regular user of Jay St-Boro Hall, I would love when the F and A/C would switch their positions sometimes.
A few years ago, I came into 72nd ST on the northbound 7th Avenue with a #2 local arriving across the platform, made the station stop and the doors were opened. A family of 3 ran across the platform from the #2 to try to catch my train where they were met by 2 armed revenue collectors at the side doors. They missed the local.
On 9/5/01, I was going from 110th to 34th Street on the West Side. After missing a 1 train while buying a single ride ticket, I had to wait 15 minutes for a 9 train to show up. Waiting 15 minutes for a train to show up when you are trying to catch a 10 AM train to Boston is not fun. That said, I was more than glad to hear the 9 would be running express to Chambers, meaning I didn't have to change trains. Sadly, I wouldn't get a railfan window but I could make do without.
So, as if the fact the 9 is on the express isn't confusing enough, when we get to 72nd Street, I look across the platform and see a 5 train made up of Pelham R62As!!!, signed with Flatbush Avenue as the bottom destination. I forget what was up on top, but the point is, people were very confused to see a 9 on the express and a 5 on the local and the 5 had R62As, not Redbirds. The conductors of both trains did a good job explaining that the 9 would go express and the 5 would go local. I assume anyone who didn't want to risk winding up in the wrong place just waited for the next train to show. Presumebly, there was a 1 and a 9 behind my 9 when we got to 103rd (not surprising), so I am sure they didn't have to wait too long.
Except that some of the doors are open, and there are people on the train.
Some people at 149-GC are trying to go south, and it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that a train signed as a 5 on the upper level will run down the East Side, especially on weekends when lots of trains signed as 5's on the upper level indeed do run down the East Side.
I guess R32 will run on D when it returns to the "BIG CONEY"!!!
Probably not; "D"'s equipment lives at Concourse. The remainder of the R32 will wind up either at Pitkin or Jamaica. And there aren't that many R32 left at Coney, either; three trainsets or so.
wayne
I guess R32 will run on D when it returns to the "BIG CONEY"!!!
Wow, I don't know if that would happen, but to me the D is synonymous with R68. I can't even imagine anything else on the D! Although I used to feel that way about the B and the R40 slants, and I got over it when they left the B.
but to me the D is synonymous with R68. I can't even imagine anything else on the D!
You are a deprived child :) The R-32s used to rule the BMT Southern Division. The last time the Brighton has R-32s was in 1998.
--Mark
The extended circle-Q ran some R-32's in late September and October 2001.
You are a deprived child :)
HeHe, yeah, to this day I'm still stuck with a vision of the period when I did my most railfanning - 1989-1993. So that's D R68's, B R40's, etc in my mind.
"This may soon spell the end for R-32s on the N (and sometimes W)--observations would be appreciated."
Are the R-32's headed to Pitkin or Jamaica ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes.
Phase I to Pitkin; Phase II to Jamaica.
wayne
That means the R-32s will end their long and fruitful association with the N. It seems that the N always had at least a few R-32 trainsets ever since they arrived on the scene in 1964-65.
This weekend is not such a hot one for IRT riders. Yetserday was pretty bad, I'll get to the point.
(1)-Douce Man mentioned there was a man who got ran over by a 1 train yesterday at 79 St, took 1h 15 min to clear. 1 service may of been adjusted this weekend to allow 3 trains to run to 137 St.
(2)-No trains between 149 St/GC and East 180 St, people forced to ride the shuttle bus [at least there was a local & express. Rode it yesterday my story is on Bustalk, I recommend it if you like to ride shuttle buses]. In addition all Flatbush Av bound trains ran express from Atlantic-Franklin.
(3)-All service ran to 137 St/City College, probably a shuttle bus from 135 St to Lenox Terminal. Also all New Lots bound trains ran express from Atlantic-Franklin.
(4)-Had to run express via local track in both directions from Brooklyn Bridge-42 St, really adding time to the commute. BTW, I saw a Redbird on the 4 yesterday.
(5)-Had to run express via local track in both directions like the 4 BUT it was making local stops when I was coming home from the Bronx and I took the shuttle to Times Sq for the Q rather than ride the 5 via local to 14 St. Also, ran in two sections from Bowling Green-149 St/GC and East 180 St-Dyre Av, people had to ride the shuttle bus in between that. Saw 2 sets of R62's and a Redbird on the 5.
(6)-I think there was no GO's for it this weekend but riders had to wait a little longer b/c of the 4/5 diversion onto the local track.
(7)-I think all Manhattan bound trains were running express from Main St-61 St/Woodside. If there was another GO and/or if I was wrong on this one, correct me.
I have repeatedly, while going westbound on Rt.22, seen Norfolk Southern freight speed westward also along this line. I've seen three NJT trains in service (because of their 'scanty' scheduling) in the past, and numerous freights. Some freights are a good length ranging from boxcars to truck-trailer flats.
Questions:
1) Does NS normally use the RVL and do they need to pay NJT for using the portion of the line owned by NJT?
2) Do any other freight companies travel along this line?
3) Where are these trains coming from and also where are they going to?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The RVL is actually an amalgimation of two seperate lines. From HUNTER to CP-ALDENE it is the NS Lehigh Line, formerly the Lehigh Valley RR main line. The Lehigh Line is the principle east-west access route for NS into the NY Metro Region.
From CP-ALDENE to ARCH the RVL follows the route of the former CNJ main line to High Bridge. The CNJ main roughly paralells the LV main and they are right next to eachother through Raritan and Bound Brook. There is even a connection b/t them in Bouth Brook and is infrequently used for detour traffic.
NS runs a High Bridge freight twice a week in the wee hours of the morning on Tuesday and Fridays. It gets back to Raritan with barely enough time (5:30am) for the first NJT train to deadhead to High Bridge.
I have been noticing this on some PATH cars now of all cartypes and more now than months ago, but I see white letterings of "EXPL" in place of the "WTC" destination light.
A majority of the cars is not affected by this.
Questions:
1) What did PATH use to put the letterings? (Are they stickers?)
2) What does this mean?
3) Are more PATH cars scheduled to have this hideous signage?
Supplemental information would be helpful.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
EXPL means Exchange Place. By summer of 2003, and probably earlier, PATH will be reopening the WTC line into Exchange Place, which has been rebuilt (crossover tracks installed) to serve as a terminal. By the end of 2003, regular service to the World Trade Center will resume.
It's been a while since I've mentioned anything about light rail construction in Denver, but don't assume that nothing is going on. On the contrary, the new Southeast Corridor is slowly taking shape.
Three of the four piers for the new bridge over Broadway are in place, as are retaining walls for the ramp to bring the new line in alignment with I-25. You can see where the bridge piers will be for the light rail span over University Blvd.
This weekend D line service to downtown is suspended while Stout St. is being relocated to make room for expansion of the Colorado Convention Center. All trains are running via the C line between Mineral Ave. and Union Station. The D line runs along Stout St., so this means the tracks need to be relocated as well. A new station long enough to accommodate four-car trains will be built to serve the Convention center, and the two existing 14th St. stations will be closed when the new one opens. This will undoubtedly pave the way for four-car trains to run downtown. (It also means there will be abandoned stations in Denver!) The 14th & California station could only handle three-car trains because of the closeness of named streets downtown.
There is also some single-track operation between Broadway and 10th-Osage due to bridge construction along I-25 as well as between Broadway and Englewood die to construction of the new maintenance facility. My guess is that they're installing switches for access to the new yard.
The section of new line between Broadway and University is slated to be ready for testing next year, with the entire Southeast Corridor opening in September of 2006.
While riding the train to New York (around 4:20pm) I saw an AEM7 (#949) as a single locomotive (no passenger cars or anything attached) facing the Secaucus Transfer station on the east side. (Tracks outside of the transfer closer to Penn)
I noticed that this single locomotive has switched onto the new track that they have constructed (the new track is not used for revenue service) and was stopped. About 200 ft. away, a man was walking between the new track (from the transfer) most likely headed to his locomotive.
Questions:
1) What was an AEM7 alone doing on the new track?
2) Was the man walking the engineer? If so, what did he do at the Transfer as to be walking back to his locomotive?
The constructors decided to build the center platform first. It is great so far. Nothing like seeing a brand-new station waiting to open.
I also noticed for the first time the "switch warmers" on a switch which is right in the vicinity of the Harrison station of PATH. It was pretty cool seeing the fire through the rail. (It was a very little and a slow-moving fire)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
"I also noticed for the first time the "switch warmers" on a switch which is right in the vicinity of the Harrison station of PATH. It was pretty cool seeing the fire through the rail. (It was a very little and a slow-moving fire)"
Quick! Call Channel 4news! They'll want to cover the fire!
While they're at it, maybe they'd like to criticize NJ Transit for "running trains backward" at 90 mph when the engineer obviously can't see where he/she's going...the LA news stations would be proud...
:0)
I think when in the early '70s NJDOT began push-pull out of Hoboken with Comet I and U34CH locomotives, the Courier ranted about their "backwards running trains"...Everything old is new again. ;-)
I thought "AEM7" referred to a SubTalk poster.
AEM7 is the model name of the AMTRAK locomotive which is similar in size and shape with an AEM7/AC except the original red, white, and blue paint scheme is present on the sides. They used to be famous in pulling Metroliners. Now they are used on regular, commuter trains and some Acela Regional trains. (AEM7/AC's are more popular in demand, though)
Go to the AMTRAK section of this website's domain and you'll find tons of pictures of all types that AMTRAK has.
Pete, George was just pulling your chain... he's forgotten more than either you or I will ever know about this kind of stuff. Perhaps if you'd read other people's posts on a more regular basis you'd realize that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the engineer had to stop and take a leak, so he used a construction outhouse by the new track.....
As per FRA regs, the AEM's should be equipped with some sort of toilet facility.
I have been reading your guys posts about cutting service in NYC. I must say being from Chicago, NYC has excellent ridership, even overnight, service should be added to and not cut at all.
OPTO works great here in Chicago, it eliminates money from the CTA's budget and gets rid of people we really didn't need to pay. However, we have a system that gets no-where near the ridership that NYC does and most stations are very simple and easy enough for the motor-man to see the entire platform. I think OPTO in NYC because of the size of the system and number of riders would be a disaster. On the entire system or just a couple of lower ridership lines, wether it be overnight or all day long.
As far as shorter train lenghts with increased service goes, from my little experience in NYC, that would be a good solution on lines that have long headways and long trains. The Brighton line, when I rode, appeared to have the longest wait between trains out of all the NYC Subway. It also had modest ridership. It reminded me of the CTA, very long trains, very long waits, and not enough people to fill the long trains. It could definetly benefit from increased service with shorter trains. We shorten and lenghten trains every-day on the purple line after the morning rush is over and again when the evening rush begins. The trains just couple together at the Linden terminal from 2 or 4 car lenghts to 6 cars lenghts when the express is ready to run.
The biggest problem in my opinion is the speed of the NYC subway. It is too damn slow!!! I thought the CTA's 55 mph speed limit was slow after riding the D.C. Metro and BART, then I went to NYC. Don't get me wrong, I think the NYC subway is great and so is NYC in general. But the reason that so many people ride the subway in Manhattan is because traffic really sucks, there is no parking, and the subway is the only way to get around quickly. However, in my opinion, express service should be restored on all lines, especially outside of Manhattan. The thing that makes the 7 & Q expresses so great is the fact that they don't stop at many stations. They don't get going very fast, but they are quick because they don't stop that much.
If NYC wants to make the greatest subway in the world even greater, increase the speed-limit to atleast 55 mph on the entire system and have express service be expanded on all lines that it is possible and run it 7 days a week. Then the subway would not only be the only choice for commuting around Manhattan, but also around the outer boroughs. Don't get me wrong, the 7 express was one of my favorite NYC subway rides, but I kept on wanting to yell at the motor-man for not going fast enough, until I realized that was the fastest the train was going to go.
BJ
PS: Maybe it's just because I'm from Chicago I have this philosophy?? I love riding the Green Line from Harlem/Lake to the Loop or especially the purple Line express on weekdays. Nothing beats those long strechs with no stations, and the trains making a bunch of noise and swaying back and fourth.
If I may comment on your post:
"I think OPTO in NYC because of the size of the system and number of riders would be a disaster."
I agree in that for the time being, OPTO would be a disaster.
"The Brighton line, when I rode, appeared to have the longest wait between trains out of all the NYC Subway. It also had modest ridership."
About the Brigton line, is my home line, and unless I get on at 57th or Times Sq I almost never get a seat to get home. When were you riding? Even at night, the trains aren't near empty. It has the best frequency of running in the whole system on weekends with every 8 minutes, and one of the best on middays, every 5 minutes (alternating between a local and exp) Many others should agree with me.
"The biggest problem in my opinion is the speed of the NYC subway. It is too damn slow!!!"
As far as I know, there is no speed limit on the subway, as you mention. They don't go fast b/c of all of the curves (look at the NYC subway map to get an idea of the number of curves,) and because many stations are close.
"However, in my opinion, express service should be restored on all lines, especially outside of Manhattan. The thing that makes the 7 & Q expresses so great is the fact that they don't stop at many stations. They don't get going very fast, but they are quick because they don't stop that much."
The purpose of any express is to increase capacity, not necessarily to speed up your trip.
"If NYC wants to make the greatest subway in the world even greater, increase the speed-limit to atleast 55 mph on the entire system and have express service be expanded on all lines that it is possible and run it 7 days a week."
As I said before, I believe there is no speed limit, but even if it was under 55, trains hit 62 in the 60th St tube from Queensboro Plz to Lexington on the N/W when all goes right (ie no R train merging). And about 7-day-a-week express service, the trains would be so empty. Sure it is heaven looking at it from a railfan point of view, but you have to consider the budget somewhere. Let me remind you that expresses save you on avg 35 seconds a stop. The Q express which you seem to have rode saves 6 minutes over a local, (22 min exp, 28 min lcl from DeKalb) considering you go all the way from Brighton Beach to Prospect Park, and don't have to wait after a local leaves before it. The 7 express saves 7 minutes over the local (15 min exp, 22 min lcl) between Main St and Qnsboro Plz. Thinking that the express is worthing standing and waiting for to save sooooo much time is simply a psychological reaction to speed contrast and seeing stations go by instead of stop and then go by.
""The 7 express saves 7 minutes over the local (15 min exp, 22 min lcl) between Main St and Qnsboro Plz. Thinking that the express is worthing standing and waiting for to save sooooo much time is simply a psychological reaction to speed contrast and seeing stations go by instead of stop and then go by.""
When you're running late for work (or elsewhere) -- and who isn't -- those 7 minutes can be a lifesaver.
But it's only 7 minutes if you're going from the beginning of the express run to the end (it's less than 7 if you're getting on or off at an intermediate express station, and it's not even an option if your origin or destination is a local station) and the express leaves before the local.
what about the 2 and 5 in Brooklyn and the Bronx, which would you take, or would you wait for an express to an extent since 5s are frequent (depending upon where you are going Flatbush/Utica/Dyre/238/241)
You haven't given enough information. What are my start and finish points, and roughly what time of day is it?
I will say that when I rode a 3 this past Tuesday evening from New Lots to 72nd, I didn't bother transferring to the waiting 5 at Utica. The 3 ended up holding for a connection with that 5 at Nevins, so it wouldn't have mattered in this case, except that I would have had to drag my luggage back and forth unnecessarily.
For any other posts I have made in this thread, now that I think about it, all my statements vary on what I'm carrying or how I'm feeling (ill, well, happy, sad, etc.)
IT all depends how far down a line you live and what time of day it is. The brighton line when running on schedule is set up to allow you to transfer from local to express manhattan bound and express to local brighton bound. If you live anywhere south of Newkerk AVE it pays to wait for the express. What i normally do when i worked at 34th street would be to take the first train that came in (q circle or Q diamond) If the Circle indeed would go local i would wait at Church for the express.
Besides the 6 minute savings, in the winter time the express is warmer and the summer it is coller due to less doors opening and closing. The main reason to wait especially in the old days was the fewer time the door opens the fewer opurtunities it malfunctions.
Without the express the ride from sheapshead bay or Ci into the city is way too slow. It is one of the reasons express buses which cost the TA more money to operate are so popular.
rush hour
1. 149 St(any one) to E 180 St(or above on 2/5)
2. Franklin Avenue(or below on 2/5) to Borough Hall
3. more crowded but faster East Side vs less crowded but slower West Side(to Brooklyn and The Bronx)
4. 3 or 5 at New Lots Avenue(if you know schedule for #5)
1. I'm not looking at the schedule, but the 5 is pretty frequent. I'd be inclined to wait for a 5 unless I just missed one. (Not during the current GO, of course.)
2. Rush hour, I'd take the 4/5. Other times, I'd take whatever came first. If I was coming from the Nostrand branch, I'd take a 2 if it came first and possibly transfer at Franklin.
3. I've been assuming all along here that time is the primary concern. As you say, the East Side is faster, so you've answered your own question.
4. I don't know the schedule, and where am I going from New Lots that I can take either the 3 or the 5?
The reason it is worth waiting for is less times the doors open and close. The few opurtunities for door holder, ther fewer opurtunities for something to break down on the train set.
It is well worth it.
Dwell times are factored into the scheduled running times.
Sometimes it is well worth it to wait for the express. Sometimes it's not. IME, on many lines, a lot of passengers think the express saves more time than it actually does and end up losing time by waiting for the express.
Let's say you're going from 125th IND to Herald Square in the middle of the day. You're hoping for a D, but a B pulls in first, on the local track. Do you take the B or wait for an express?
Or how about this common scenario. You're on a Manhattan-bound V train entering Roosevelt Avenue, with a final destination of 53rd and Lex. The express track is empty and you don't know when the last express train came through nor whether it was an E or an F. Do you get off the V and wait for an E? On average, how much time do you gain or lose by transferring to the E? Answer this question for the morning rush and for midday.
It's Sunday around noon and you're going from Broadway Junction (ENY) to 145th Street. You run down the stairs only to find an A pulling out. Two minutes later, a C pulls in. Do you get on?
I'll give my answers after I see yours.
(Sometimes it is well worth it to wait for the express. Sometimes it's not.)
Sometimes people prefer the express anyway, perhaps for reasons Ed Alfonsin pointed out on this board some years ago. Every stop and start shoves your insides against your outsides and makes you feel worse. A smooth ride, even at a low speed, feels better. And if the train is crowded, fewer stops mean fewer slam dances around the doors.
Occasionally, an F train battery runs express. This is theoretically bad for me, because I am at a local stop. But the truth is I like it, even if it means having to wait for another train or walk an extra 12 minutes from 7th Avenue. The express feels that good. Same thing in an auto. I'd rather go out of my way to avoid stop-and-go traffic, even with little or even negative savings.
A TA study once determined that passengers experienced time spent waiting as longer than time spent riding. This is one reason to favor more frequent service on a local track to express service. However, it may be that time stopping and starting also hurts more than time moving.
And in a decade, if and when ATS and PA/CIS is installed, time waiting may be even less important. ATS would allow tigher adherance to schedule, allowing riders to time their arrival at the station. PA/CIS would elimiante the anxiety of wondering when or if the next train is coming, and would make the express vs. local choice the right one every time.
Occasionally, an F train battery runs express. This is theoretically bad for me, because I am at a local stop. But the truth is I like it, even if it means having to wait for another train or walk an extra 12 minutes from 7th Avenue. The express feels that good. Same thing in an auto. I'd rather go out of my way to avoid stop-and-go traffic, even with little or even negative savings.
That's why I like expresses, even if sometimes it does wind up making me loose time. I know sometimes it's only perception that the express is faster.
Your car scenario is very true. I often times do get off a major road with stop and go traffic to get on some secondary road, sometimes loosing more time, but at least in my mind, I am at least moving.
This kind of thing interests me, so I guess I will chime in here.
I'm unfortunately one of the fools who probably wait for the express (This is true when I'm using the subway for transportation, railfanning of course is another story, where I'll take anything, depending on what I'm doing). More than likely it saves me little or no time by doing so, but unfortunately, if I have a choice between a local and an express, I'll take the express, even if the time saving is just perception. So much so, that even when I am at let's say Grand Central, headed for Canal Street on the Lex, I will probably take the express to BB and transfer to the 6 back to Canal. I guess that's a bad example, because on Lex the headways are so good, that you are almost insured to pass a 6 along the way.
But as for your scenarios:
Let's say you're going from 125th IND to Herald Square in the middle of the day. You're hoping for a D, but a B pulls in first, on the local track. Do you take the B or wait for an express?
I know what the correct answer should be (get on the B), but me being the fool I am, will probably stay at 125th STreet and wait for the D - (Probably cursing under by breath as the line up of trains comes through after I let the B pass by - an A will come after the B, followed by a C on the local track - finally the D will arrive after what will seem like forever - Can you see I've been through this before????).
You're on a Manhattan-bound V train entering Roosevelt Avenue, with a final destination of 53rd and Lex. The express track is empty and you don't know when the last express train came through nor whether it was an E or an F. Do you get off the V and wait for an E? On average, how much time do you gain or lose by transferring to the E? Answer this question for the morning rush and for midday.
In this case I surprise myself. I would probably stay on the V, unless there was an E across the platform (since your scenario says there isn't). In this case I feel that you would no doubt loose time waiting for the E (at least on average - of course sometimes you may get lucky).
It's Sunday around noon and you're going from Broadway Junction (ENY) to 145th Street. You run down the stairs only to find an A pulling out. Two minutes later, a C pulls in. Do you get on?
In this case I feel the ride is long enough that you are almost bound to pass a C somewhere along the way. It is a great enough distance that I would no doubt wait for the A. Of course you did throw a an important point into this - Sunday. I find headways on the 8th Ave/CPW-Fulton line to be horrible. So, it may have been smarter to get on the C, but I'm sure I wouldn't do it.
Wow, I got a lot of responses. I'll use this as my springboard.
Chris, if your goal is to reach your destination as soon as possible, you've made the wrong choice on all three counts! (Of course, that may not be your goal, as others have pointed out. I think most riders have multiple competing goals, with time of arrival a prominent one in most cases.)
First case:
IINM (I'm not looking at the schedule right now), the midday B and D each run on 10-minute headways, and the express run saves 3 minutes (according to the schedule and according to my watch). Knowing nothing else, the expected wait (statistically speaking) for the D is 5 minutes, so it would be worth waiting for the D unless the B took more than 2 minutes to show up. But I do know something else: IINM, B's and D's are scheduled to arrive at 34th at 5-minute intervals. That means that (at midday headways, assuming everything's running on-schedule) D's never pass B's on CPW, and that whichever train arrives first at 125th will also reach 34th first.
Maybe you could save time by taking an A to 59th. But how? Obviously the A isn't going to pass a D if they're running on the same track. The A might pass a B, but that would simply be the B you let go at 125th. Could it pass two B's? Not unless there are two B's within 3 minutes of each other, which is never the case according to the schedule. (Of course, the schedule sometimes in no way reflects real life, but, in general, the local and the express are about equally likely to be negatively affected in most cases, so I'll assume the schedule all around. I'll mention one exception below.)
So (again, assuming the schedule), waiting for a D will lose you 5 minutes in the end. Waiting for an A will either lose you 5 minutes (if you don't pass the B) or will get you there at the same time (if you pass the B and transfer at 59th). Take the B.
Second case:
At rush hour, the E and F each run at 4-minute headways. The expected wait time for the E is 2 minutes. The express, once it comes, saves 4 minutes from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. So by getting off and waiting for the E, your expected savings is 2 minutes. (I'm assuming you have no way of knowing how far off the next E is.)
One wrinkle in this case is delays, which are particularly prone on the express. This is the exception I promised: on any line running 30 tph or so, any slight problem can cause big delays; the local, which is running closer to 20, has more room to recover. That pulls the 2-minute savings down a bit, though probably not below zero.
This is also one case in which I think any passenger who places any value at all on comfort would be better off on the local. My feeling is that most passengers at Roosevelt do place some value on comfort, but they think the express saves much more time than it actually does, so they suffer on the E. NYCT's "five minute" V campaign was a mistake, IMO; the actual time loss is closer to two minutes.
What about middays? The E is one of those lines that has barely more rush hour service than midday service -- the schedule gives 4-6 middays. Even assuming 6 minutes, the E still saves an estimated 1 minute. And in this case, delays are less of a concern and crowding isn't bad. So, counterintuitively, I (with my own competing values of time and comfort) might stay on the V in the morning rush but get off and wait for the E at noon.
Third case:
Yes, the C is a long ride and it makes a lot of stops -- but for a large chunk of that ride, from Hoyt to Canal, the A and C run on the same track, and from Canal to 59th, the C makes only three more stops than the A. Past 59th, where the A finally has a chance to bypass a lot of local stations, it only saves 3 minutes. Total savings from Euclid to 168th (the entire length of the C) is about 10 minutes; from Broadway Junction to 145th, figure on 6-7. On Sundays, the A runs on 10-minute headways, so you know the next A is 8 minutes behind the C. It's not worth waiting 8 minutes to save 6-7 in travel, especially since the A is often crowded and the C usually has seats on weekends. There are always the possibility of merging delays on the C at Canal, where the E comes in -- but the A has a similar worry, with the D, at 59th. Speaking of the D, you may luck out and catch one at 59th if you take the C.
Wow! The amount of time it took me to read your post (at a relaxed pace) may ACTUALLY be the amount of time I would've saved by taking the C over the A, LOL.
the A over the C, excuse me, and also at perfect circumstances.
I aim to please. Print out my post and read it while you're waiting for the express.
That means that (at midday headways, assuming everything's running on-schedule) D's never pass B's on CPW, and that whichever train arrives first at 125th will also reach 34th first........The A might pass a B, but that would simply be the B you let go at 125th.
Argh. I have no idea about Duke Ellington's era, but the CPW has got to be one of the most over-rated express routes in the system. I can't argue with any points in your above statements. It makes perfect sense.
I guess in the end, my love of "expresses" would win out, and I would take the A to 59th, and hope to catch the B I foolishly let go at 125th Street.....But if ever in that situation, and if time is of the essence, I will take your advice and take whatever orange train comes first even if it's the B (since in theory the B and D shouldn't pass each other).
.....might stay on the V in the morning rush but get off and wait for the E at noon.
Wow, "Possibly get of the V and wait for the E middays".
I didn't expect that one. The one time when I said I may stay on the local!
As for the A/C Broadway Junction to 145th thing. All I have to say is that that "legendary" over-rated express spoils a chance again.
Speaking of the D, you may luck out and catch one at 59th if you take the C.
You had to bang those final nails in, didn't you!
Of course, your objective also matters:
- If time spent on the subway is bad, but time spent at the destination is good, then do whatever you perceive is statistically best.
- If you have an appointment (with no reward for being early for the appointment) and what seems like enough time, take the local in the hand vs waiting for the express. The local should do, and waiting for the express runs more risk of being late.
- If you're at risk of being late for an appointment, and arriving late means you're screwed (e.g., a connecting train at Penn, a thetrical or musical performance), then take the risk of the express. It may be your only chance of being on time.
Of course, there's also the issue of comfort, as discussed by others. If you can get a seat on the local but maybe not on the express, the local is worth extra. If you're going to be packed in tight, especially if you need to get out before the train empties out, an express may be better because you have fewer stations where you need to jockey for position.
Sometimes it is well worth it to wait for the express. Sometimes it's not. IME, on many lines, a lot of passengers think the express saves more time than it actually does and end up losing time by waiting for the express.
I like the effect of whizzing past stations and not having to deal with passengers getting on and off disturbing my newspaper reading... For me its worth waiting for an express just for that pleasure...
Well it could vary but assuming all is well and there's no delays, I'll throw in my opinions for your scenarios. I would of posted earlier but I had to go to school, well here it is.
>>"Let's say you're going from 125th IND to Herald Square in the middle of the day. You're hoping for a D, but a B pulls in first, on the local track. Do you take the B or wait for an express?"<<
Hmm, it could go either way but I would take the chance and wait for the D.
>>"Or how about this common scenario. You're on a Manhattan-bound V train entering Roosevelt Avenue, with a final destination of 53rd and Lex. The express track is empty and you don't know when the last express train came through nor whether it was an E or an F. Do you get off the V and wait for an E? On average, how much time do you gain or lose by transferring to the E? Answer this question for the morning rush and for midday."<<
I would stay on the V and if a E comes when you're arriving at Queens Plza and it gets the preference, switch to the E other than that STAY on the V. As for time, I don't think you'll really save much time maybe 2-3 minutes.
>>"It's Sunday around noon and you're going from Broadway Junction (ENY) to 145th Street. You run down the stairs only to find an A pulling out. Two minutes later, a C pulls in. Do you get on?"<<
Yes, you go on the C b/c usually on Sunday when you miss an A and let a C go, you're LOSING time now if the next A catches up to the C in Manhattan or a D comes by at Columbus Circle get on it.
If you don't mind, here's a interesting scenario.
Ok, its a weekday you're at Church Av on the Q and you're heading toward Manhattan you see the (Q) and Q express arrive at the same time, which one should you get on? Remember, if you get on the train thaat gets stuck, you lose at least 3 minutes in traveling time.[Regular Brighton riders should be familiar with this scenario]
"If you don't mind, here's a interesting scenario.
Ok, its a weekday you're at Church Av on the Q and you're heading toward Manhattan you see the (Q) and Q express arrive at the same time, which one should you get on? Remember, if you get on the train thaat gets stuck, you lose at least 3 minutes in traveling time.[Regular Brighton riders should be familiar with this scenario]"
Oh yes! You never know. One time I was on an exp that passed a lcl at Ave H, and then waited at Church for the lcl to come from behind and merge first after Parkside! I'd say usually the exp goes first, the whole idea is to make sure two of the same type don't go in consecutively. It is also somewhat annoying in that you are on the exp but you get stopped at that annoying signal that occurs just before emerging from the tunnel and seeing the front of Parkside. I guess we're waiting for something to clear, but it seems were waiting for it to get all the way into 7th Avenue!!!
See how its a interesting scenario, its unpredictable. Sometimes the (Q) goes first, other times the express goes first BUT then the 3rd possibility is they both leave and you don't know which will go to Prospect Park first. All 3 has happened in the past and most of the time, the express got STUCK by the red signal bypassing Parkside.
" Sometimes the (Q) goes first, other times the express goes first BUT then the 3rd possibility is they both leave and you don't know which will go to Prospect Park first. All 3 has happened in the past and most of the time, the express got STUCK by the red signal bypassing Parkside"
The above used to occur all the time. It does not occur much anymore. The Express in recently years almost always gets the the green. It rarely waits outside prospect for a local to go ahead. This is in large part to better scheduling. While in High School in the early 90's the express waited daily for the local to go ahead. If the local closed down first at Church, 75% of the time it was given preference over the express. Many times you the doors on the local D were open at parkside while the express sat at a red light
I like your scenarios, and they require thought. Unlike other people here, I could care less how often we stop as long as I have the feeling at the end that I didn't make any mistakes and that there was no faster way to get to where I wanted to get to. (This is only if I HAVE to get somewhere FAST, which isn't too often.) So, assuming I actually WANT the fastest route, not necessarily the most comfortable, I would do this:
1) Wait, and let the B go. I would think either an A or a D would come through and get to 59 before the B during rush hour. I have never stood on this platform, but I assume it is easy to stand half-way from the upper level, half-way from the lower level and be able to tell by hearing which one, the A or the D, is coming first. If it is an A, I'll get the B at 59th, but I would not risk letting the D go first. If I'm not in a rush, I'd almost definitely take the B to avoid the crowds, and because you don't really get a railfan window either way.
2) Dodge across to see if something's coming. If it is an F, I can usually see clearly the orange bullet. If I don't see this bullet, I assume it is an E, since the odds of an R32 F are slim. If I can't get the E, I get back in the V, and like someone else said, if I get a chance at the E at Qns Plz, I'll go for it. I assume with this policy the E can't really get into Roosevelt until the V is well on its way into Northern Blvd, and that any time saved by the E would not be as much as the time I can lose if I just missed an E. (Did I mention looking FORWARD into the tunnel at Roosevelt while I'm at it to see if I missed something?) The same policy applies whether I'm in a rush or not.
3) In this case, I'd probably wait for the A, although aren't they scheduled to come in at the same time to avoid this conflict? I think the A would bypass the C by 145th unless something really goes wrong. The only way the C could be the best decision is if it just beats the A I would take into 59th St by seconds and just catches a merging D which would save me 2-3 minutes?
If I can't get the E, I get back in the V, and like someone else said, if I get a chance at the E at Qns Plz, I'll go for it.
What am I missing here, I didn't understand this the first time when someone else said this, and now it's mentioned again. Why would anyone get off the V at Queens Plaza to get the E if your final destination is 53rd/Lex? The stop after Queens Plaza is Ely and then 53rd/Lex whether you are on the V or the E.
I neglected to mention this in my long response.
If the E and V show up at QP at once, which one will leave first? I don't have enough experience to know if there's a general rule. (IMO, the schedule should prevail, or if that's not an option, the less popular line -- the V, in this case -- should take priority, unless one line has more passengers wishing to transfer to the other than vice versa.) If I wanted to be sure to be on the first train out, I'd ride in the first car and keep an eye on the homeballs, whether I'm on the V or on the E.
I think NF857 is assuming the E will leave first. He may be right, in practice.
I'm almost always by default in the front, so when I say I'll go for the E, it'll be based on the signals.
You know, that is what I was missing. Right after I posted that I thought to myself, duh, they have to merge after QP to run through Ely, so obviously one has to leave before the other. That is why he mentioned the "run for the E".
I'm going to throw my two cents in on this.
>>"The Brighton line, when I rode, appeared to have the longest wait between trains out of all the NYC Subway. It also had modest ridership. It reminded me of the CTA, very long trains, very long waits, and not enough people to fill the long trains."<<
The Brighton line(my home line too) as New Flyer857 said has consistent headways on weekends, every 8 minutes on weekends all day and every 5 minutes [every 4 minutes with alternaing Q's on the rush hour] with alternating local & express Q's weekdays. The waits aren't that long and at times its standing room only on the Q weekends; especially the summertime.
>>"The biggest problem in my opinion is the speed of the NYC subway. It is too damn slow!!! I thought the CTA's 55 mph speed limit was slow after riding the D.C. Metro and BART, then I went to NYC. Don't get me wrong, I think the NYC subway is great and so is NYC in general. But the reason that so many people ride the subway in Manhattan is because traffic really sucks, there is no parking, and the subway is the only way to get around quickly. However, in my opinion, express service should be restored on all lines, especially outside of Manhattan. The thing that makes the 7 & Q expresses so great is the fact that they don't stop at many stations. They don't get going very fast, but they are quick because they don't stop that much."<<
Ok, here's the thing. NYC stations are pretty close to each other so you won't get the speed between local stations that you would see in other systems; typically you get 25-30mph between local stations and 35-40mph on the express but THIS varies by line. Also, some lines like the Culver had LOST regular express service since 1987 and hasn't come back since. Over the years the words rapid transit in NYC is decreasing b/c of the increased timers, wheel detectors and REDUCTION of top speeds. The R44 and R46 car classes we're designed to go 80mph but a rear end collision reduced the top speed to 50mph and on other classes 40-45mph however it also depends on the track layout. In the 60 St tube, trains usually hit 55+mph and the downgrade contributes to it. I think they shoud raise the speed limit on trains, particularly the A and lift the unnecessary timers in the system. The 7 and Q express is so quick b/c they have very few or no timers and since the express stations are distanced more further than other lines.
Thanks for all the great info about Expresses, locals, and how it applys to NYC in general.
I also agree and think people in general like the word express and tend to use express trains and expressways whenever possible even if they equal the same amount of time or even a few minutes longer then the local train or road. Something about the thrill of zooming past stations or opening up your car.
It also does depend on the circumstances though. For example, it takes approx. 25 minutes go from Oak Park (Harlem/Lake) on the CTA green line to State/Lake in the Loop. It only costs $1.50, also.
It takes 15-20 minutes approx. to go from Oak Park (Marion/Lake, east entrance to Harlem/Lake CTA Station) on Metra to Ogilvie Transportation Center in the Northwest corner of downtown Chicago. You then have to walk 8 blocks to State Street which makes up the 5-10 minutes you saved on Metra. It cost $1.75 per ride using a ten-ride ticket.
During the Ball-Busting cold weather we've had lately, I would much rather take the CTA and not have to freeze walking the 8 blocks. When the weather is nice and the Metra schedule conforms to my schedule I sometimes enjoy taking Metra. It is also nicer late at night for safety and at the end of the day when your tired and want to get home quickly.
On another note, atleast we finally have a nice intermodal facility in Oak Park. You can only say that about a few other facilities in the Chicago area (like Jefferson Park). I wasn't suprised that the RTA recently identified 75 areas where the service between CTA, Metra, and Pace should be better cordinated for transfers between the 3 services. Atleast you have signs that say "LIRR" or "Metro-North" with an arrow on the NYC Subway. Except for a few places in Chicago, that really doesn't exist. Hopefully they weren't lying though and will actually make transfering between the 3 services easier. Also a universal fare-card is suppost to be developed. Can't wait to see what that looks like and how it works!
BJ
I am curious to find out what is "beneath" the rocks of the trackways of the NEC (or anyplace). If someone were to dig out all of the rocks (having the purpose of exposing the underside of the track), what would appear?
In all subway stations and major hub stations, (i.e. Newark Penn) a full-length tie is not required since the track is connected right on two, raised concrete lengths, and connected rather with two, smaller ties instead of the one that reaches all across the two rails.
If the rest of the railroad has full-length ties, I'm guessing this is not the case for the rest of the rail line.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
its screwed to plywood , then Matte medium is applied to hold ballast in place :-)
[If someone were to dig out all of the rocks (having the purpose of exposing the underside of the track), what would appear?]
Anything and everything from Elvis' secret hideaway to the long-missing body of Jimmy Hoffa Sr.
:-)
Dirt... lots of it.
Modern roadbed construction hasn't changed significantly from 100 years ago. The earth is shaped, ballast is laid, and then the tracks. The way that the earth is shaped and the ballast laid varies based on location and the type of soil, but the most important criteria is drainage. Water that falls on the track must drain away, otherwise the roadbed will shift and the tracks become unstable. There are other considerations, of course, but that's #1.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The railway technical pages has a site on track construction. The only problem is that the site's on European track building, so it's where the US will be in 10 or 20 some years.
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/track.htm
Hey! That page has one of my photos on it (boy, I have sure worked my way into the cracks of the World Wide Web) can you guess which one?
Anyway, in the US many older RoW's were first shaped out with a layer of slag. On many abandonned RoW's the balast has been scrapped away revealing the slag layer. If you don't know Slag is like a black/gray gravelly grit that if you look closely has a lot of pieces that sort of look like a cross between lava and an asteriod. It also contains bits of coal. Slag is a scum that is scooped off the top of any molten metal refining blast furnace.
US mainline RoW's are pretty well built although CSX just anounced that they are only going to maintain the balast on the former NYC main to 6 feet instead of 12.
You can see alot of that here on old yard track beds, like 207th. Some of those tracks are in pretty bad shape). I think Fresh Pond yard had that too, but the tracks were recently replaced.
Those trains that run from 149-GC to Flatbush, I know that some of them are being laid up during the overnight. Where are they being laid up? And also if you normally work out of 241 street on weekends, are you doing so this weekend?
Some of the trains are laid up at Nlts Yard. As for the crews up at 241St, they are doing shuttle trips from 241St to E.180St. At E.180St, you take a shuttle bus to 149-GC to get Manhattan bound 2/5 service. The same goes for the Dyre Ave crews.
Da Beastmaster
Right! OPTO 5s on the Outside, Deuces in the middle! Cool!
-Stef
The #5 shuttles are not OPTO during the day.
My mistake.... I assume they were running at full length, right?
-Stef
Yes they where. I was working the Dyre Shuttle today. The first OPTO is the 23:39 Dyre/ E 180 St.
Perhaps, one will lay-up at Flatbush and be called a "gap" train. Others were going to New Lots. The rest pounded the road.
If you normally work out of 241 on weekends, you may be asked to report to Mott. Crews are told ahead of time.
herd this on MSNBC just a few min ago:
a train derailed at parry town,ILLINIS at around 8:30 ct time,16 cars
derailed,i,ll post more info soon.
til next time
KMOV.com (registration required) reported that tank cars containing vinyl chloride, formaldehyde, and hydrochloric acid were involved and that there was a fire.
Tamaroa, Illinois
16 cars of the Canadian Northern train derailed
500 of the town's 800 residents were evacuated (one mile radius)
info from MSNBC.com:
TAMAROA,ILL feb 10-cleanup crews worked to stabilize hazardous chemicals and right the cars of a freight train that derailed near the
center of a town and forced hundreds of people from their homes.
no injuries were reported after 16 cars of a N/B ICCN(ILLINOIS CENTRAL
CANADIAN NATIONAL)train derailed yesterday morning in a southern town
of 800,authorities said The train was carrying vinyl chloride, formaldehyde, hydrochloric acid and methanol, Perry County Sheriff Keith Kellerman said. Authorities evacuated as many as 1,000 people within three miles of the derailment site. Officials closed the town's elementary school Monday and said residents could be out of their homes until Wednesday. The chemicals are hazardous to breathe and could cause death in high concentrations, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Many emergency workers were kept away from the trains because of the danger, Kellerman said.
Vinyl chloride leaking from one or two cars caught fire, said Kellerman and Canadian National spokesman Jack Burke. Leaking methanol also caught fire, Tamaroa village trustee William Place said. Tests conducted upwind of the site indicated no air pollution, said Chris Cahnovsky, an Illinois Environmental Protection Agency field worker. Crews were checking for possible soil and groundwater contamination, said Dave Searby, operations officer for the DuQuoin Emergency Services and Disaster Agency.
"We don't know for sure how long it will be before people can return home," Searby said. He said state and local officials were working on a plan to tend to pets who were left behind.
The train, operated by a two-person crew, had about 100 cars, Burke said. He said chemical-hauling trains typically roll north from Louisiana to Chicago or to a switching point in Effingham for movement elsewhere. Each car carried 24,000 pounds of chemicals.
Tamaroa is 28 miles north of Carbondale in southern Illinois
first herd about this yeterday afternoon.
til next time
What times are the Amtrak Trains supposed to come into GCT and leave GCT tomorrow. I heard they were going to be there through Tuesday, so I'm interested in seeing em... IF you could give me times preferably in the morning (around 7 or 8 AM). Also, do you know if they are coming in or departing with long delays? And, which tracks do they come into?
CALL AHEAD ... word is that 7 of (I don't know how many) trains are already cancelled since there are a number of equipment and timing issues. MTA is unable to schedule the full Amtrak service for the Empire corridor and delays are a MINIMUM of an hour each way as a result, at least today (Sunday) ... with MNRR service at "normal" levels during the week, this can only get worse.
Amtrak service is NOT a priority to MTA, so you'll NEED to call ahead and find out what's running and pack and extra book or two. It's a MESS ...
Can't they run as far as Harmon, Y the engine, and go back ? Wouldn't that be a preferred option rather than outright cancellation ? WHat are they doing with the LSL ? My guess is transferring to an AMfleet at Renss.
I have no idea in all sincerity, they're running on the best contingency plans they can given the circumstances. And running trains the short distance from Rensselaer to Croton doesn't make sense from Amtrak's standpoint. They CLAIM the bridge will be repaired by Wednesday for what it's worth. But until then, it's pot luck I s'pose.
They're running the LSL as normal, took it back from Chicago myself yesterday. (rail sale, $15.40 each way between Albany and Chicago... can't beat that with a stick!) Just if anyone's interested, here's the departure board from Albany. Anyplace other than here, every board/sign/announcement I heard all weekend was "New York Penn"... keeping it simple for the passengers to swallow I guess, spring the news on them at Yonkers.
And can't they just run into GCT full diesel? IIRC they don't need to switch electric, there's adequate ventilation for limited use of non-electric power.
Anyway one woman on Friday claimed she had gone from NYP to New Rochelle, reversed and in to GCT, then reversed again... must've been at the beginning of the disruption.
Can anyone get me pics of what it looks like at GCT and NYP? Departure boards, temporary stuff, etc. If they are fixing this by Wednesday there's no way I'll be able to see...
Well I was in Grand Central today and saw an Amtrak train on track 21 (weird sight!) and the crew really stood out from the MNRR folks.
Anyway, the train wasn't marked on a regular departure board, and instead, another board said "AMTRAK Albany will depart from track 21 at 12:15pm". This was left up way after the train departed, and I did not know where or when the next Amtrak train was arriving.
And sorry, I didnt take any photos, I didnt want to take a chance on getting strip searched! :-0
Hopefully someone out there was brave enough!
On Friday at 7 pm, no Amtrak trains were listed on any of GCT's departure boards. Instead, a Albany train leaving from track 25 was listed on a cardboard sign posted at the entrance to the platform.
This picture, of an R7 @ Livonia Avenue is dated in 1974. The sign on the platform which says "Livonia Av" is in the current white lettering on black background sign. I was under the impression that these signs didn't show up until 1979, and that the signs of 1974 were black lettering on white backgrounds. Am I wrong?
Here's another one. It's an R7 @ Cypress Hills in 1971. Notice the black-on-white "Cypress Hills" sign on the windscreen. I always thought that the Jamaica Ave. el stations retained their traditional BMT white on blue enamel signs until the current white lettering on black background signs replaced them sometime in 1978/79. I can personally attest to their survival at Forest Parkway and Elderts Lane to this date. Where were these "black on white" signs located? I've never seen them exactly like this anywhere else either.
Where were these "black on white" signs located? I've never seen them exactly like this anywhere else either.
I remember those same what I called "LIRR-like" black on white signs (The strip on the top of the LIRR signs used to be black instead of the current blue at one time, like the one shown at Cypress Hills) at Canal Street on both the bridge platform and the current N/R platform. I think they even lasted there at Canal until the early 90's. They disappeared around the time they removed the original porcelain signs from the Nassau Canal platform, which also lasted until the early 90's.
I noticed those signs once and a while as early as 1972, if I can remember right, only on elevated stations, and VERY seldom.
That Livonia picture reminds me that Livonia was where the Canarsie and New Lots crossed was one of my favorite places to watch the trains. There was some bridge where I could get a good view of both. And there was standard on Canarsie.
Others:
The side walkway on the bridge on the Brighton over the Belt Parkway just south of Sheepshead Bay. Especially in 11/67 with lots of R1-9 cars new to Brighton. And a big back-up to Brighton Beach at rush hour.
The walk bridge (now gone) over the Brighton between Ave. H and Newkirk where the tracks change from embankment to open cut when going inbound.
The old RR crossing on the Canarsie Line. I used to talk to the operator of the gates for hours, even on cold winter days.
My father had a friend with a balcony that had a clear view of the Coney Island Yard. I did not do it many times, but I loved the view.
What were your favorite viewing spots from when you were a kid?
When I got older, I would watch the Broadway trains for hours from the platform at Eighth Street in the Villiage.
My favorite spot as a kid was the now gone Queens Blvd. station when it was a terminal. Whenever my family went to Jamaica post 9/9/77, I FORCED my family (translation: crying temper tantrum) to use the train to Queens Blvd, then the Q49 bus to get to outer Jamaica. At Queens Blvd there is a McDonalds. When we returned from Jamaica, we always ate there between bus/train transfers. I always got a front window booth. I had an AWESOME view of trains coming in/out of Queens Blvd, and those using the crossover. I loved seeing Manhattan bound trains leaving Queens Blvd, as the direction the train travelled always looked odd until it crossed over to the right track. After eating, we'd go up to the token booth, turn in our paper transfers, then climbed to the platform. Usually it was a guessing game if 2 trains were in the station at the same time, as a "Next Train" sign didn't exist here. My mother always asked the token booth clerk to point out which platform had the next train to leave, but many times he directed her to the wrong one. I loved sitting on the trains, listening to the R16's constantly "charge up" with a whirring, vibrating sound, then discharge and go silent. If I was lucky, we got a train on the 168th St. bound platform, and I got to ride across the switch after we pulled out.
There used to be a station on the Myrtle Ave el that was called Grand Ave. They were side platforms connected by a pedestrian overpass over the tracks on Myrtle Ave. The northbound side platform on its south end was connected to the Myrtle Ave side platform station on Grand Ave on the Lexington Ave Line. This connection formed a L shape. The Grand Ave platforms were just north of the junction where the Lexington el turned onto Myrtle Ave. It was a very unusual station complex. There was no station platform to stop at for north bound trains on the Lex & Fulton -Lex.
The pedestrian overpass gave a great view of the trains from three lines during rush hour. The Lexington Ave Line, The Fulton-Lex Line & The Myrtle Ave Line were all within view. It was especially strange to see the Myrt trains running right under my feet.
I was a long way from home, but I still tried to spend as much time there as I could. I was never questioned or chased from the overpass, but of course this was back in 1949.
I'd love to see a picture of this bizarre station.
There was at least one picture of a portion of this station at this site. If I can still find it, I will post the link.
Here is at least one picture.
The station house at the left of the picture is the base of the previously mentioned L. The Lex platform extends from it (unseen)along Grand Ave. This picture was obviously taken from the pedestrian overpass that I mentioned, looking south down Myrtle Ave toward Washington Ave station. You can see one of the rails coming in from Grand Ave under the second car. The tower controled the switches for the junction.
I lived in Far Rock in an apartment which directly overlooked the A between B. 25th and Mott Avenue. I remember R-1/9s, R-10s in turquoise-and-white (the "Ocean" scheme) Slants on the E and R-42s as NEW equipment. I also remember riding the RFW as a VERY young kid in 1970 on R-32 E train home one winter evening. Other train watching spots as I got older (and was able to railfan alone or with friends):
Broadway Junction on the QJ,KK, and LL
E.180 on the 2/5
The Myrtle Ave. El with Q cars (Relatives lived at Myrtle/Washington, so I could watch at those family gatherings thru their apt. window)
The Willy B when the ped overpass just west of the Manhattan anchorage was serviceable.
Hey, I never watched from Broadway Junction. I bet that was good.
Broadway Junction was especially awesome when the BMT Fulton Street el still operated. It added to the spectacle. My older cousin touted Broadway Junction to me when I was still in single digits, and I rode out there from Sheepshead Bay.
^^^"Broadway Junction was especially awesome when the BMT Fulton Street el still operated"^^^
More so in the PM peak period. IIRC, you would see the 'C' type
from Rockaway Avenue going to Lefferts Blvd on the Fulton El.
Standard's on the Broadway Brooklyn El, bound for Jamaica or
Broadway Brooklyn Locals going to either Atlantic Avenue or
Rockaway Parkway. If you were lucky, you would see the set of
R-10's in service on the 15 to Jamaica.
On the 14th Street line, the standards to Carnarsie & the MS's on the
13 14th Street~Fulton Line to Lefferts Blvd. Awesome then!!!
;-) Sparky
If you go back far enough, you could see gate cars on the Fulton-Lex coming around the high curve, and into the station.
My memories go back to the early fifties. As a child we lived near Liberty Ave. and Crescent St. in the City Line section of Brooklyn. The el (was that the Myrtle Ave. line?) there went around a sharp curve. I would watch the trains from up Crescent St. Even when I couldn't see them I could always here them going around that turn.
That el was called the Fulton St Line!
We used to go with my Grandmother and parents to Evergreen Cemetery to visit Grandfather's stone. A lot of the time we'd park on Conway Street. Of course, the Canarsie Line crosses directly overhead. I'd wave at the motormen as they would pass. One time, we saw a very unusual train up there - it was the one and the ONLY time I ever saw the MS.
wayne
It was not my favorite, but I watched the Franklin Shuttle from a pedestrian bridge a little south of Botanic Gardens. I would wave to the motorman and usually he would blow the whistle in the BMT Standard car.
That was the Carroll Street footbridge, which was always my favorite, as well.
Another place which my father took me to only once or twice was a bridge over Coney Island Creek. The bridge had four tracks, and was used by the Sea Beach and West End. I could watch the trains cross the bridge from inside our car, which was parked on (I think) Stillwell Ave.
When my father took me to these places which were beyond walking distance such as Livonia Ave or Coney Island, he would sit in the car reading the Sunday Times while I was out watching the trains for three or four hours. At Stillwell, we would both be in the car. That was true quality time with my father (and no girls around).
When I was a kid I would visit my two grandmothers in Bklyn. One lived by the 20th Av Station on the Sea Beach and the other lived on New York Av & Newkirk, one block from the Newkirk IRT Station. When I was at the grandmother on 20th Av I could stand on the overpass opposite the station bldg and watch the trains. In those days the overpasses had holes you can look through so even a little kid could see. There were mostly Standards then and although I don't really remember them I'm sure there were triplexes. When I went to the grandmother on Newkirk I was a little older and would stand next to the token booth for hours outside of fare control watching the trains. There was no mezzanine there. I would also watch the New York Av buses outside of her window and keep track of the numbers. They were about half fishbowls and half Ralph Kramden Old Style GM's.
Eventually they both moved, the one on the Sea Beach to the white Warbasse building right next to the Van Sicklen Station by Neptune Av and the one on NY Av to Far Rockaway by the B25th St Station. However by that time I was riding the trains a lot so watching them wasn't so much of a novelty.
Also, as a kid growing up in East Meadow, I would ride my bike to Westbury Station which was all diesel and low platform then and used to love being there when a fast express came through. It was really scary but fun.
Hmmm. You just reminded me of an experience I had on the eastbound Farmingdale station a couple of weeks ago. It was during the first cold wave we were having. About 6:00 pm. The train that terminates at Farmingdale at that time was slowly pulling into the westbound side. Along came the express. Lemme tell ya', it was quite a thrill.
Nightime, it was not snowing but ice was in the air. I was standing on the platform and watched as the express zoomed into the station. It was traveling in a fog of ice crystals, like the contrails of a jet engine. I stood there looking west as the train rapidly passed by. I was sucking in frosty ice crystals; they were pumped into my lungs and tasted crunchy. The immense energy of that train! Nothing like the sound of those LIRR electrics clacking down the ROW at high speed. The train filling the westbound tracks made a more concentrated effect too. As the train passed the wave of crystals flashed over me and left with the train.
As an aside, I generally, uh, like standing on icy platforms...as long as the trains come on time! If you subscribe to Life-As-Art, there is much opportunity to strike dramatic poses as you wait. It's especially nice if the platform is elevated, or at least street level. To observe the cold-humbled city from a train platform is a sensory delight.
In the old days when the Main Line was all diesel it was a super experiance. The trains seemed much bigger then because on the low platform you could see the wheels and trucks. You would see one headlight then on the diesels instead of the three now and it would get closer and closer. I used to go to Westbury. The only thing was, in order to experiance an express you had to be there at rush hour as in those days every train, either Port Jefferson or Ronkonkoma (Huntington wasn't a terminal then) stopped at Westbury.
You mentioned Farmingdale. My brother and his wife used to live in one of the condos that backed right to the E/B platform. There bedroom window was right over the platform. The trains never bothered him but the public address system whenever there was a late train was so loud and drove 'em nuts!
I once lived on Hoffman Avenue in Lindenhurst, the walkup apartment directly across the street from the Bablylon branch. It was like living next to a "super el". That's one amazing rail line. Coolest thing was when the diesel expresses would rumble on by. The sounds of the elevated were similar to that scene in BLUES BROTHERS when Jake and Elroy first holed up in Elroys room next to the Chicago "L" train. Not that frequent but similar. If I was talking on the phone I would have to wait until the train passed.
It was interesting however to be living so close to an elevated train station in Suffolk County. Not many people out here live a block and a half from the station. And I used it like an el, taking the train to Rockville Centre or Lynbrook for a movie, or out to Bablylon to transfer to buses, or to go further east on the train. Being a Brooklyn boy, it did me good to end whatever journey I had been on by walking down the platform to the stairway, seeing my apartment building down the block, and walking down the stairs of the elevated structure to the street. Walking under the el, up to my cozy apartment building.
Jake's brother was "Elwood", not Elroy. During that part of the movie, I was always facinated how frequent the trains were always passing by Elwood's apt. I guess he lived along the Downtown Loop.
The frequency of trains seemed a little hard to believe outside the apartment. Must have been some "movie magic",
Chuck Greene
I had a couple,
1-The window of Dubrows at Kings Hwy on the Brighton Line, Dinnerand a subway
2-My Mother taught school at PS212 in Gravesden. Window overlooked the Bay 50th St station of the West End. AM rush hours shuttles of Standards, 1 Unit of Triplex, and Q Cars
3-If you can cansider the LIRR, my aunt and uncle had a 6th floor apt in Rego park, over looking the LIRR Main line. In those days not only MUs, but Steam and Diesal pulled trains
I had a cousin in Queens with a back window vies of LIRR. I had some interest in it, but not as much as a true subway line.
I was talking about the mid 50s when there was Variety, not just M1 Cars
When I was at New York, I loved standing on the platform at a local station and watched as express train charge by on express tracks. The station pillars give it a cool effect also.
I loved standing on the platform at a local station and watched as express train charge by on express tracks. The station pillars give it a cool effect also.
There is a great effect of that surreal effect at 28th Street on the Lexington Line.
I hate to say it but that was the best part of going to the Museum of Natural History as a kid. Waiting at the 81th Street Station and have loud R1-10's speeding by. If our local came first I felt really cheated.
I always wanted to go to JFK with my parents too, so I could ride the A to Lefferts and take the Franklin Shuttle (standards) to the last stop instead of just to Botanic Gardens (which was my grandparents' stop.) And those A trains were always R10's, Once I rode one, and the rail fan door was not locked. I open it a crack and peeked through the hole and liked the wind hitting my face as it did when I would take an IRT with the open window,(usually on a ride to the Bronx Zoo, also my favorite part of a zoo trip.)
The train ride to the Museum was the best part. I did not usually get to ride on the IND. It was mostly BMT lines.
The museum station is the only saving grace I have for the 8th Ave/CPW line. I have such great memories of waiting at that station on grammar school class trips, or with my parents (and they did an outstanding job in the recent renovation).
Other than that, I really am not a big fan of the 8th Ave/CPW line.
My favorite spot was in Farmer's Oval near where the Montauk Branch meets the NYCRR meets the M train. My father used to bring me there as a kid, and I remember watching the M trains go by, and an extra treat would be if a train would go by on the Montauk Branch or the M train.
In later years, in the late 80's and 90's I returned, and it again became a favorite spot.
....and I remember watching the M trains go by, and an extra treat would be if a train would go by on the Montauk Branch or the M train.
Ooops I meant:
....and an extra treat would be if a train would go by on the Montauk Branch or the NYCRR Bridge.
Chris, I asked about Farmer's Oval several years ago on this board, and no one had ever heard of it. I have an ancient snapshot of a gate train taken in 1946 at Farmer's Oval. That bridge is in the background at a different angle. I deduced from the picture that it had to be somewhere between Fresh Pond Road Station and Metropolitan Ave station where the el tracks were on ground level.
Could you define the location any further for me, considering that I have not seen the area in 45 years?
not being from the city i just had to settle for watching trains at newark penn sta. they had prr locals (mp-54's with round windows) and long distants(with GG-1s,sleepers,diners and others). of course there was the H+M with "k" cars with prr cab signals.
That was one of my favorutes, but nicer views at Harrison on the East Bound Platform
amother place was the CNJ station in Jersey City. My older brother sometimes took me by ferry to Jersey City, There the Reading, CNJ and B&O terminated. All sorts of equipment, including Old CNJ Steam. This was the early 50s and Steam Humpback Engines.
We used to sneak back on the ferry instead of paying when a train came in., Did this at Erie and Hoboken before the switch of the Erie.
Could you define the location any further for me, considering that I have not seen the area in 45 years?
Farmer's Oval is the old name for what I think they now call Maffera Park or something. On the Hagstrom's, it's where Catalpa Avenue and 65th Place meet in Ridgewood (or it could be Glendale), and it say's Glen-Ridge park, but I never heard it called by that. I took the photo in the late late 80's, and I am standing on the Montauk Branch tracks looking east toward the LIRR (now NYA) Fresh Pond Yard in Glendale. At the time, nothing ran on either the Montauk Branch or the Conrail Tracks on Saturday and Sundays, so you had free reign to walk around there, and on the bridge for photos on the weekends. (Of course now with the NYA, that has changed). The Bridge at the time of the photo carried Conrail (now CSX and Canadian Pacific)trains over the LIRR Montauk Branch. The M train would be behind me, on a seperate much less elaborate simple trestle across the Montauk Branch. You are right it is between Metro and Fresh Pond road on the M. The tower on the left is LIRR "Pond" tower.
Farmer's Oval is on the right of me, on this side of the Contail tracks. The park's four sides (almost completely surrounded by railroad tracks) are:
-M train to the West
-LIRR Montauk Branch trains to the North
-CSX to the East
-65th Place to the South
I have a few more shots of the area scanned (and many more unscanned). Also, look on this site under the M train section, and Fresh Pond Station, I think there are a few photos there also.
As soon as I download the ones I do have scanned in a few minutes or so, I'll post them in a thread called "Before and After". Some other time I'll scan the unscanned ones.
My snapshot was apparently taken from the NYCT surface track level, southwest of where you were standing. I see no sign of the trestle in my picture but perhaps the gate train obscures it. A portion of the bridge is visable in my picture, and it apparently hasn't changed since 1946.
Thank you for the explanation, it's been so many years that I could not remember east or west. If I ever get back to the city, I will have to get one of those Hagstrom maps you all talk about.
Karl, this is the only scanned other angle I have, this time of the M train trestle. I have others, but they are not scanned, and I don't feel like pulling the scanner out. This photo is taken in the opposite direction. This time I am under the Conrail Bridge, and looking toward the M train. The work train is on the M train tracks, and I am looking towards LIC on the Montauk Branch.
I think my snapshot must have been taken from the track level of that work train, from a position several hundred feet to the rear of the work train engine. The photographer must have been aiming his camera in your direction.
If I only had a scanner I could email you a print of the snapshot. It's so small though that you really can't see that much.
Chris, Thurston (Mr. T) and I were at exactly the location in your photo two Saturday's ago...we also walked the bridge and went down as far as the Cooper Avenue bridge. (It was too cold to walk much further)
I live pretty close to Farmers Oval. There is a park well hidden in Ridgewood where you can get a view of that bridge. It's located between Metro Av. and Fresh Pond Rd. station of the (M) line. You can also get a view of that area if you go to Otto Rd. and walk in Fresh Pond Yard. The site even show the history of it.
Also if you can see it from the other corner of it if you go into the Lutheran Cemetery next to Christ the King High School. You can also get into the cemetery at the grade crossing where the Glendale station on the Montauk Branch used to be on the other side of the cemetery. You used to be able to walk across the tracks from Otto Ro0ad into the cemetery, but over the last few years they keep the fence pretty well secured.
Hey Chris. This brings back memories. I was here a lot as a teenager. We both went to CK. I used to walk up through Forest Park, past the bandshell, from Woodhaven and start to walk the Montauk line from the 88 St. grade crosing. Would walk to Fresh Pond and hang around there for a while. Go to the TSS store and take the M and J home. Later on I found myself in school right there and would look for the daily Conrail freight each way. Were they GP38's? Usually 3 units numbered 1900+. Enjoyed watching the Long Island make moves in the yard, sometimes with their C420's before they were gone. I remember getting caught red-handed in english class one time watching the train go by by Miss Cullen. Was she pissed. What did she know? LOL! Do you remember Mr. Bosco who taught math? He works for TA...teaching. He's doing well since he doesn't have to worry about us "derelict" kids anymore. I can't really relate to the area anymore because of the increased security. Like you said, it was wide open before. It sure was a lot of fun while it lasted. Watch out for those pheasants.
Wow you brought back a lot of memories!
Go to the TSS store and take the M and J home.
Yup, as a young kid, I got all my 45's at the TSS record shop. Do you remember that corny lunch counter in the back. I would get a cheesburger there before heading home.
Later on I found myself in school right there and would look for the daily Conrail freight each way. Were they GP38's? Usually 3 units numbered 1900+.
My freshman year homeroom was on the side of the building with the M train and the Conrail tracks. I would watch the totally grafittied M trains go in and out, and the rumbling of the Conrail train which usually came in during homeroom or first period. Those (I found out later) were B23-7's. They weren't the GP38's. I can still hear the whole building rumble as they went by. Once while walking the tracks after school with a friend, at Fremont Tower, a Conrail engineer offered us a cab ride (engine #1976) to Oak Point on one of them.
I remember getting caught red-handed in english class one time watching the train go by by Miss Cullen. Was she pissed. What did she know? LOL!
Ah yes, Miss Cullen, she was a pisser. I would get caught at many classes staring out the window at the trains in many of my classes. That school was a budding railfan's paradise. The back side of the B side of the building over looked the Montauk Branch tracks and the LIRR Fresh Pond Yard, and there was always soemthing going on. The whole front overlooked Conrail and the M train. Always something to see, when class got really boring.
Do you remember Mr. Bosco who taught math? He works for TA...teaching. He's doing well since he doesn't have to worry about us "derelict" kids anymore.
I never had Mr Bosco, but I remember his classes were like a zoo. If his door was open, all you heard was screaming kids! Interesting that he is at the TA now!
I can't really relate to the area anymore because of the increased security. Like you said, it was wide open before. It sure was a lot of fun while it lasted. Watch out for those pheasants.
At the start of school, and dismissal, literally hundreds of kids would dart for the tracks for shortcuts. In my earlier years at school there, kids without subway passes would sneak onto the Metropolitan station for the M train, over the Conrail tracks. Amazingly, there was NO fence along the subway property. There was the CK fence that was full of holes, and that's it. In the back, the LIRR totally ignored all the kids crossing the tracks as a shortcut to Glendale through the cemetery. It wasn't just the kids. Old ladies would even cross the Montauk tracks as a shortcut into the cemetery, and to Metro Ave, and Glendale people would walk their dogs ON the tracks.
Yeah, that whole area in the 80's used to be a free-for-all before the NYA took over in the 90's. I enjoyed railfanning there right into the early 90's. By about 1996, the security there made it impossible, or at least it certainly wasn't the same. Haven't been back since. But I got the memories!
Yeah, it was a lot of fun looking back now. I remember the lunch counter very well. I believe the pet section was right next to it. I also remember the music section. It was all vinyl back then. I bought a few records from there. The school would shake when the freight passed by. It was really hard to miss. You knew when it passed mostly anywhere in the school. If the cafeteria was noisy, you might not know. That would have been cool going to Oak Point in a cab over the Hell Gate but you would have to watch out for your safety. Mr. Bosco would lose control of the class very easily so it was at most times a zoo. He appears to be very relaxed now. I did a couple of escapes from school. Up the hill and onto the tracks. I would walk to Fresh Pond and catch the train there. Everyone used to walk the tracks. No one bothered you. I do recall hearing about people getting hit with a "salt gun" in the cemetery by workers after hours. A lot of memories!
>>>... I do recall hearing about people getting hit with a "salt gun" in the cemetery....<<<
What's a "salt gun". Inqiuring minds need to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Salt gun: a shotgun, with the shell loaded with rock salt and just enough powder for it to sting a bit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The escape to the tracks was funny. If you were in a class that faced the tracks, it was funny to once in a while see kids dart out of the building and run for holes in the fence to the tracks. You could almost place bets on whether they would make it, or if Mr. Tiedemann would come running out from somewhere to try to catch them (not a small task for him physically). I only did it once, but that's because I had lunch 6th Period, had Study Hall 7th, gym 5th, (or someting like that) and I heard my 8th period teacher was out. I wasn't about to wait around past 4th period just for gym and study hall, so I made the run to the tracks, and made it. (Geesh, this sounds like jail-breaking).
I rode the M to Coney Island afterwards. It must've been a M and B combo because the M was already on the West End. I believe the R27 or R30 was signed for 36th Street. I think I remember it going to 9th Avenue though. I don't know why it said 36th Street, Brooklyn. Anyway, I made it out of the school, and had a great day (and I wasn't even really a railfan yet). The next day, I never got caught for skipping gym, but got busted for skipping study hall of all things!
LOL, no small task indeed! I did it 2or 3 times. I forgot about the 8 periods and the scheduling. Daily life for 4 years. Thanks again for the flashbacks. I feel really OLD. LOL!
Unfortunately - as kids, we were limited to our choice of subway viewing locations. My two favorites, or, more precisely, the two places where I could watch the trains were:
1) Lincoln Road near Ocean Avenue. My cousin lived on Ocean Avenue and when I visited him I was able to watch the Brighton trains between Prospect Park and Parkside Avenue.
2) The New Lots Line where the train turned sharply tot he east, onto Livonia Avenue. My grandmother would stand there for hours with me.
My version of the same was the Church Avenue overpass on the Brighton Line. My grandparents lived at 31 Ocean Parkway, and ... just like TD ... they'd stand with me for hours ... waiting for an elusive Brightliner to come by in the midst of all the R9s.
I lived, for a time (1954-1959) on East 26th & Avenue D in Flatbush. I had relatives on East 17th Street, just north of Beverly Road. I used to love to go up to the end of the street, where traffic had to turn right -- if you walked left, there was a pedestrian bridge over the BMT just south of the Church Avenue station.
Saw plenty of Standards and D-types....PLENTY!!
My uncle worked as a telegrapher for the Erie RR in Susquehanna county PA. Whenever we visited, I begged him and my parents to let me go to work with him on his 4-12 shift at BS tower which seemed to be out in the middle of no where, and only a few miles south of the famous Ararat Summit. It was a two track line that was always busy. It was Erie trackage, but the Delaware & Hudson had trackage rights. They seemed to run about ten trains to the Erie's one. My uncle had to operate semaphore signals, and pass orders up to the passing trains. He had to report Erie movements by telegraph, and D & H by telephone. There was no electricity, so all signals and tower lights were lit by kerosene lamps.
Northbound trains crept by, battling the grade, and normally with several extra steam engines pushing on the rear. Southbound trains, coming down the grade, thundered by, less than six feet from the tower, causing the tower to actually shake. It was an awesome experience for an eight year old kid, but it gave me a lifetime love of all types of trains.
Today, the Erie is gone, the D & H is gone, the tower and tracks are gone, in fact any type of railroad operation in this part of Pennsylvania is gone.
Nice story. I'm sure your uncle appreciated the company!
Nice story. I'm sure your uncle appreciated the company! .
I'm not so sure. I found out years later that my uncle apparently had a lady friend who would visit him at work, and she obviously couldn't visit when I went to work with him.
1) Broadway Junction complex from Evergreen Cemetary
2) As a kid, Ave V and East 15 Street. On the way home from Grandma's house, Grandpa would park there and we would wait for a D,M, or QB train to pass by. Luck would have it, the train was always an R42 D train.
3) Marble Hill station watching 1 and 9 trains crossing Broadway Bridge and passing Metro North trains.
4) Ave X station on the F train.
5) South Ferry station on 1 and 9
6) Times Square on the Shuttle
7) From Cross Bay Blvd on the first bridge from the main land.
8) Spuyten-Duyvil station in the Bronx
9) Elmora Interlocking and Elizabeth-Broad Street.
10) Long Beach Terminal
11) Atlantic City Rail Terminal
12) HX Draw( not on bridge but from shore on Harmon Cove side).
I often watched from E. 180th Street, Brooklyn Bridge-Worth, West 4th Street and 59th Street-Columbus Circle.
Wayne
Having grown up in Connecticut, I had relatively little exposure to the subway until less than ten years ago. A pity really, as it would have been nice to have seen now-vanished equipment in use.
(LONGTIME FAVORITE)
The point on the Times Square Shuttle Platform
where there is that overpass crossing over to
Track 3... there's a left-side corner at where the
billboard wall ends and you can practically TOUCH the
1 train as it goes by northbound...
(the author DOES NOT encourage touching a moving train;
the expression was used solely for emphasis of point).
149st-Grand Concourse on the 2/5 trains... sitting on the bench
at the mouth of the nb tunnel as the 5 trains curve in from
138st and the 2s come out of the tube tunnel into the station..
(This was a fave spot in 2000 when redbirds dominated the joint).
Track 3... there's a left-side corner at where the
billboard wall ends and you can practically TOUCH the
1 train as it goes by northbound...
(the author DOES NOT encourage touching a moving train;
the expression was used solely for emphasis of point).
HeHE, thanks for the emphasis point....
Anyway, that reminds me of a spot I used to love (at least for three years when I used the station every day).
On the extreme north end of the northbound platform at Lexington's Union Square is a point where the platform comes to a narrow point. Before they rehabbed the station, you were able to stand right there in the point, and there were no lights there either, so it was a bit darker than the rest of the station. If I got there, and I was early (I only had to get to 28th Street once at that point, after transferring from the L), the headways were so good on the 6, so I would just let a few pass by, and I would just stand there for about 10 minutes or so watching the expresses and locals fly by, with the screeching flanges.
It's my still my favorite station in the system, probably one of the most interesting (even if it's tile decoration is sort of minimal), and there is hardly never a time when there isn't at least one train in the station. Now multiply this scenario to a time (early 90's) when the 5 was always a redbird, and the 4 and 6 were half redbirds, so you never knew what you would get.
(LONGTIME FAVORITE)
The point on the Times Square Shuttle Platform
where there is that overpass crossing over to
Track 3... there's a left-side corner at where the
billboard wall ends and you can practically TOUCH the
1 train as it goes by northbound...
(the author DOES NOT encourage touching a moving train;
the expression was used solely for emphasis of point).
149st-Grand Concourse on the 2/5 trains... sitting on the bench
at the mouth of the nb tunnel as the 5 trains curve in from
138st and the 2s come out of the tube tunnel into the station..
(This was a fave spot in 2000 when redbirds dominated the joint).
(LONGTIME FAVORITE)
The point on the Times Square Shuttle Platform
where there is that overpass crossing over to
Track 3... there's a left-side corner at where the
billboard wall ends and you can practically TOUCH the
1 train as it goes by northbound...
(the author DOES NOT encourage touching a moving train;
the expression was used solely for emphasis of point).
149st-Grand Concourse on the 2/5 trains... sitting on the bench
at the mouth of the nb tunnel as the 5 trains curve in from
138st and the 2s come out of the tube tunnel into the station..
(This was a fave spot in 2000 when redbirds dominated the joint).
Since I lived in Manhattan when I was a yute, there weren't many chances to do any elevated train spotting. However, as far as underground locations, my favorite was the old metal walkway over the downtown platform on the IRT Lexington Ave. line at Union Square -- low enough to give you views down the tracks, but high enough to still be over the tops of the cars.
And pre-renovation, the third base seats at Yankee Stadium used to be a great train spotting location for the No. 4 line, as it would go by the gap between the bleachers and the rightfield grandstand where the bullpen used to be (upper deck at Shea had similar trainspotting possibilites as the Flushing line came out of the Main St. tunnel headed towards Willets Point Blvd.)
My favorite spots:
(1) Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue. Gotta admit I used to cut HS classes and ride the Brigton down to Stillwell to view all the train action from the overpass/walkway.
(2) Avenue X on the Culver Line. Got some nice shots in the 70's of the equipment along the McDonald Avenue (SBK) side of the complex.
(3) Culver Shuttle (Ditmas Ave.) Had fun in my teen years riding the Culver from Ditmas to Ninth Ave (and vis-versa). Riding the rickety, old structure was a real treat....and one that is only a memory now.
Another spot I went to once or twice was watching as the Culver entered the Ninth Ave. West End Station. I could see both lines and the Culver trains were always Standards.
Sometimes when we visited my maternal Grandparents who live on 65th Street in Bensonhurst, my cousins and I would sneak out to the West End 62nd Street Station, sneak in when no one was looking and gaze down on my Sea Beach running straight down below where we were standing. Often I couldn't resist heading downstairs and riding the #4BMT Triplex for a number of stops until we no longer came across any of those mini-tunnels that I loved so much. That usually meant we had to ride to 86th Street. All the time our parents thought we were at the playground playing stick or punch ball. It was a hell of a time we had.
My favorite spots are as follows:
Wyckoff Av. station- (M) line
Fresh Pond Rd. station/Metro Av. station- (M) line(because of the bridge hidden deep in Ridgewood)
Myrtle Av. station- (L) line
This was just a one time thing but I remember as a little kid my grandfather drove me to a store he was doing business with. It had to be the late 50's or early 60's because he stopped driving in the early 60's. Well he parked and had me wait in the car. I had a view of an el a half a block away. At the time I had no idea where I was but now I know it must have been the Myrtle North of Broadway because there were alternating trains of Standards and what I later learned were Q-Cars. I must have been in the car for almost an hour and was mesmerized by that el. (nowadays someone would get locked up for leaving a little kid alone in a car that long but in those days it was normal!)
When I lived in Queensbridge, I used to go to the small park behind our apartment, climb the barrier and watch the train enter the 11th Avenue cut and into the tunnel, and vise versa when the trains came out on their way to Queens Plaza. Once in a great while a #4 train would come out of the tunnel, never enter it. I wondered if they commandered some Sea Beach trains to run as 4th Avenue locals during rush hours. I never found this out, nor did I ever find out if the Sea Beach was routed past their normal northern terminal at Times Square and 42nd Street. I loved to watch that and it gave me a big charge.
I lived on Ocean Av between Parkside and Lincoln Road and could see the Brighton trains in all their variety as they went over the interlocking. I can remember shuttle trains terminating at Parkside and snaking across all four tracks back to Prospect Park, summer sunday specials, triplexes, standards, the first R27s, R32s, R1s when they came over with the D. All the other oddball stuff too.
The overpass at Coney Island, of course! Through the mid-seventies, you had just about every class of B equipment going in and out from both directions. Even through 1988 and the Manny B switch, there was still everything from 27/30 on up.
The Jamaica yard leads, which cross the Grand Central by trestle. There's a pedestrian path alongside it, and through the mid-seventies there was a wide variety of equipment along Queens Boulevard. You'd get a close-up views of R6s groaning, sputtering and lurching in and out of the portal.
Till his decease in early '74, my great uncle lived in a lower floor of a 20-something floor-high rise on Kingsbridge Terrace. I'd sneak out to go up to the top floor and look out a hall window across the Deegan to the el along Broadway and MN Hudson line. All through the early seventies, IRT cars came in a dazzling assortment of shapes and colors: peaked-roof R14s and 15s; turtle-backed 21 through 36; maroon, black, dark green and the TA-mandated gray with blue stripe. With graffiti really starting to take hold at the time, you'd see some really wild patchwork quilts crossing the Broadway bridge.
The Bedford Park bridge over the Concourse yards when the C and D had, variously through the seventies, 1/9s, 10s, 27/30s, 32s, 42s, 44s- man, do I MISS those days!!
The LIRR main line at New Hyde Park, with M1 and diesel expresses flying through. You'd try to time when the NHP Road gates would go down for a westbound train, or the South 12th gates for an eastbound. It was even more fun all during '99, when the old diesels and double-deckers ran concurrently.
The Mineola Boulevard bridge looking east, especially when an Oyster Bay-bound train would cross the switch. It was also fun to see the gates at the three crossings go down in quick succession for trains to and from Carle Place.
The MN portal in the middle of Park Avenue at 97th Street. You can see inbound trains crossing the Harlem River bridge, but the real fun is when an outbound train comes charging outside with barely a second's warning.
Queensboro Plaza was especially exciting, when it was four platforms and eight tracks on two levels, prior to 1949. It was a young railfan's dream to see so many trains come and go, especially during evening rush hour!
I was fortunate as a kid in this respect.
My room of my Brighton 6th Street apartment overlooked the Brighton Beach station. Many nights I would fall asleep on the wide window sill (window always closed :) watching trains. My grandmother lived one block away on Brighton 7th Street with an even closer view of the station. My father owned a TV store for two years at the corner of Brighton 6th & Brighton Beach Avenue, and I was an easy kid for him to watch - I'd put a chair in front of the store and sit and watch the trains for hours. And I had a childhood friend who lived on the 23rd floor of 460 Neptune Ave in Trump Village with a perfect view of the Coney Island Yard and the Verrazano Bridge in the distance. And not only that, but his father worked in the yard and entertained me to no end about subway trains, how he fixed them, etc. Got some "VIP" tours in those years, too.
The double-El between West 8th & Stillwell was a favourite place of mine. And I remember playing in the Sea Breeze Park playground, swinging on the swings and climbing on the monkey bars, never missing a Brighton or Culver train as they rumbled on their respected Els.
--Mark
How about taking the rides in Astroland and keeping your eyes on the two level El a block away while on the ride?
Heh, I do that now! The past two summers, I took my camcorder on the Wonder Wheel and the Astrotower, and shot the Stillwell / West 8th complex and the approaches, during the day AND night! When I was younger, they used to have the small gondola type ride and I'd always ride that looking towards the trains. Didn't do that too much though!
--Mark
The crossover near the south end of Brooklyn Bridge station was pretty cool.
I remember standing on the uptown side at 116th Street (8th Ave. Line) and seeing an arnine local across the four tracks on the downtown side. There is something about the silhouette of the windows - the lights inside the car vs. the darkness of the outside of the car - that brings back a beautiful memory to me.
Also the uptown A & D express arnine trains roaring past 81st Street on the CPW line.
You've GOTTA do one again the next time Branford or Seashore offers an Arnine excursion. As someone who used to RUN those cars, there's nothing like them. Especially NOW ... but the darlings live on in exotic places - be happy to take you for a ride in one when the opportunity exists. They were a genuine TREAT and lived and breathed like real machines of yore.
They STILL LIVE! :)
(just not in NYC anymore, at least on the rails)
Years ago when I was active at Branford Eddie S. said the magic phrase to me, "Wanna run it?" Let me tell you that it was the realization of a lifetime dream. However, I would like to taken for a ride down the line by someone who ran them in service! To my sorrow, there is no arnine set in the TA museum. If there were one and there were a fan trip, I don't know what I would want to do most -- ride it up and down CPW or stand at 81st or maybe 110th St., maybe even stand on the uptown platform at 42nd & 8th Ave. as it came down the hill into the station and watch it roar thru. Incidentally, years ago George Horn told me a story of the day he roared into 42nd St. on the downtown 'A' express with a string of arnines and held it on the post until the his cab entered the station. He said he made one application of the brakes and one release and then made the final release and stopped exactly at the ten car marker. When the train got to the end of the line, his Conductor came up to him and said, "George, I didn't think we were going to stop at 42nd St. today!
I can still dream that someday there will be a museum set. However, I am really greedy - I want a full ten car set!
Remember how the cars snaked down CPW -- when the trains doors were open from one end to the other?
I also remember, as a kid, the lights on the side destination roll signs going out going down CPW. I did not know why that was happening until (years later) I was told by somone that the arnines could have the reverse key put in the off position and the train would coast down CPW. I also heard the story of the Motorman who did that and then walked through the train and greeted the Conductor and returned to the front of the train. I would not have wanted to be a track walker on that day!! In those days, the conductor walked the train and checked the end doors and the destination signs and then returned to his position.
Ave N and MacDonald Ave. Who watched the subway - at the time, the SBK was still running street level under the Culver el, usually in time for my walk home after school. Occasionally the train was followed by an A&P semi with my uncle driving.
from the actual railfan window ( 1950s ) a ride i did not want to
ever end !!
Thanksgiving: That morning, my father would take me on a subway trip to places unknown and unexplored. He would take me to lines and stations that he knew I had never seen.
My first trip to Ditmars in Astoria was on Thanksgiving morning.
One year my father could not make it so my grandfather pinch hit for him. My grandfather (99 now) is an IRT man. He took me through two of the Bronx lines which I had never seen before. I looked forward to Thanksgiving more than kids would look to Christmas as I would get the ride of my young life that morning. By about 4 or 5 PM my father would take me to my grandparents' home (by the Brooklyn Museum) and we would have a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner.
That night I went to sleep with memories of a wonderful day with the family and a trip on a "new" subway line for me.
My dad also used to take me on outings, one I remember was from Brooklyn to LaGuardia, via the Brighton to Times Sq, the long walk to the 7, then the 7 to 74th St, then Q 33 bus.
Othertimes, instead of taking the subway from Bronx Zoo, we took the Q 44 to Jamaica, Then BMT Standards to Broadway Junction, R10s and then the Franklin and Brighton Trains home.
July 4th was mine. Baseball, picnics, stickball and lots of fun.
More on July 4th. While most kids really got into Christmas for obvious reasons, by the time I was seven that holiday took a definite back seat to Independence Day. My memories of those days are stark and I can say without hesitation that the 4th of July ranks as my happiest days as a young New Yorker.
In 1948 we went to what we called the "country" out on Long Island where my maternal grandparents had a house in Selden. We drove out there, had a nice Italian dinner and when most of the family went for a walk my uncle Tony and I listened to the Giants-Dodgers game on radio. I remember like it was yesterday that Connie Desmond said the Dodgers were trailing 8-3 and asked Uncle Tony what that meant. It wasn't good. The Dodgers caught up only to fall behind 12-9 on Willard Marshall's three run homer in the top of the ninth. Uncle Tony got disgusted, thought the game was over and went upstairs to take a nap.
Roy Campanella hit a booming homer in the home half and a further rally won it for the Brooklyn boys 13-12. Later that evening my uncle asked how the game finally ended and was in shock when I told him the Dodgers had pulled it out. He couldn't believe it and turned on the radio to find out if his nephew was pulling his leg. His smile lit up the room when he heard from the newscasters that the Bums had won. It was a hell of a sight to see and a great day. There were many more July 4th's that were also great.
Fred s Dementia and Althzeimers is setting in. He can remember a baseball game 55 years ago, but can t remember what he shot at Golf today.
LOL!!!!
Oh, I can always remember what I shot at the golf course, but many times it is better for me if I try not to remember what it was.
Durocher got thrown out of that game, too. He was in the middle of shaving when Harold Parrott came into the clubhouse and told him Branch Ricket wanted him to resign. Leo refused. To make a long story short, Leo wound up with the Giants before the month was out.
Absolutely correct Steve and it happened when they were falling behind 8-3 in the fifth or sixth inning. He wasn't around at the end when Brooklyn won the game. In fact, the Dodgers had just ended a losing streak the night before in a 4-3 win and started on their move all the way to first place in late August before they fell back to third with an 84-70 record, ten games different from their pennant winning year of 1947. But the new guys started a big dynasty in 1949 when Jackie, Duke, Campy, Big Gil, Pee Wee and Skoonj led them to the pennant.
KOBS (Kindly Old Burt Shotton) replaced Leo as manager and stayed around until 1951, when Charlie Dressen took over. Actually, Horace Stoneham called Rickey and asked for permission to interview Shotton for the Giants' managerial job. Rickey gave Stoneham a choice between Shotton and Durocher. Leo knew how Rickey operated. Two strings held out as always, knowing all along which one would be plucked. Only this time, one of the strings was Leo himself. When Stoneham heard this, he immediately opted for Durocher.
Right again. It is interesting to note. When Durocher was manager of the Dodgers in 1948, he was 8-4 with the Giants. When he went over to the Giants in July, he was 7-3 against the Dodgers. The teams split that year. Ironically, Durocher had a losing record against the Dodgers, a minus nine. Shotton, on the other hand, was a plus 10 against the Giants.
What was your reaction when the news broke that Leo was going over to the Giants? It had to be as big a shock to Dodger fans as Bobby Thomson's pennant-winning dinger three years later.
According to my mother, nothing was as bad as that swing of Bobby Thompson's bat which ended the 1951 season for the Dodgers.
Listen to your mother because he is right. It was a kick in the balls and I ate shit from my Yankee and Giant friends for the rest of the fall and all winter and spring until the Dodgers came back and won in 1952.
I was counseled by my father that it would all work out well for the Dodgers. Though not a fan of Burt Shotton, he did remind me that the year before (1947) he did a good job of managing the Dodgers to the pennant. That was the first year I really followed baseball with a passion. He was right because in '49 the Dodgers came on and won the pennant again with new guys like Snider, Hodges, Campanella, Newcombe and Cox.
I'll bet you would have given anything to still be in New York when the Dodgers won it all in 1955. Not to mention read and possibly hear that cataclysmic Triplex collision in June of that year.
Yes I would have. I was angry at my parents for not allowing me to stay home and watch the game, but I had a friend of sorts in a guy named Bill Prout who for some reason befriended me. He was the big star on the baseball team and in 1957 signed a big bonus with the Red Sox. He was headed for stardom until he hurt his arm. He would always invite me to work out with him and I got used to taking BP off him. Anyway, he had a radio and kept getting out of class to let me know what the score was. I made several trips to the bathroom that day as you can guess.
A postscript. In Bill's senior year he was phenominal and in an intra squad game he was pitching up a storm and struck out the first seven batters he faced. Up I came and ripped a booming double off the wall. He just turned and smiled. The coach was aghast and it made me a regular on the JV team from that moment on. I was a good hitter for the most part but I think it was the Lord's intervention that got me that hit. Bill was that good.
When my father told us we would have to move from South Bend 36 years ago, I took it hard. It meant leaving friends and familiar surroundings behind. We wound up moving to New Jersey which meant frequent visits to New York. As long as I took at least one subway ride while in the city, all was well. My mother says I forgave my folks for moving when I became immersed in the subway system. In a way she was right.:) Then I became a Mets fan.
Well if you became a Mets fan then to me the move was the best thing that happened to you.
A lot of good things happened as a result, one of them being my becoming a subway aficionado. Once I started going to Saturday School in Brooklyn, I was hooked. September 23, 1967 was the third red-letter date in my life - that was the day I became an A fan for life. I started following the Mets in 1968, and of course the following year they won it all and New York went bananas.
I know for sure that my life would have taken a completely different path had we stayed in South Bend.
Now that you have almost everything the only thing left for you to do find that special someone that will make your life complete. I am amazed at your knowledge of the various cars of the subway system and your take on baseball. You are a real standup guy even if you live in the frigid zone, but at least you guys out there re-elected Allard.
With all due respect, I've heard my share of horror stories and feel lucky to be single. If the right person ever does come along - great. However, I won't lose any sleep if it doesn't happen.
OK Steve I respect your feelings on that. BTW, when are you planning on visiting New York again?
I will be in the city again in October if all goes well.
Gil Hodges was from Indiana.
Great, you were a Dodger fan. Dem Bums.
Just for the record, I never took to the Los Angeles Dodgers and I despise them to this day.
You said you were ecstatic at first when the Dodgers moved out west, but not for long.
Being ecstatic lasted all of one weekend when I saw that montrosity of the Coliseum and got a whiff of LA fans, who thought they knew all about baseball. They are still today the dumbest fans in all baseball. They don't know the game, arrive late, leave early, and spend almost all the time talking and eating. They really don't know shit about the game. I love California but my love stops when it comes to LA's team. It is like manna from heaven when I come to New York and sit next to real fans.
Duke Snider felt the same way when he first saw the Coliseum and that odd field configuration, I'm sure. Right field went on and on and on forever. Willie Mays came up to Duke, pointed to the short left field porch, and said, "Look what I get to aim at!" Wally Moon perfected a swing that enabled him to hit "moon choppers" over the screen in left field.
440 Feet. Besides his bad knee, he was further hurt by that far away fence. If they could have built the diamond on the other side of the Coliseum he would have had the short fence to shoot at but it was said the sun would get in the eyes of the hitters during day games. A ridiculous notion since they played almost all their games at night. For the record, though, when the players took a secret vote about moving to Los Angeles, the vote was 24-1. Many suspect Duke Snider was the lone Dodger who wanted to move. If so, he soon came to regret his choice.
AFAIK if you pulled the ball straight down the right field line in the Coliseum, it wasn't so bad, but as in Fenway Park, the fence fell away abruptly.
Campy mentioned in his book, It's Good to be Alive, that Duke was in favor of moving mainly because he was a Californian. Heck, even Don Drysdale didn't want to move, and he was also a Californian.
As I said 24-1 for Brooklyn. I think that is a decisive majority, don't you?
Yes indeed.
What about O'malley's vote? That is the decisive one.
To paraphrase an old cigarette TV ad: You can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn but you can't take Brooklyn out of the Dodgers.
Meaning, they belong in Brooklyn and it is not right that they are away for any reason other than a road trip. It does not seem right for our Dodger to play in LA.
I guess you mean Dodger, not Mets. You were not a Giants fan were you?
We all love to hate the Yankees.
When I lived in New York as a kid I was a ardent and passionate Dodger fan who hated the Giants and Yankees with equal venom.
My favorite spot was the T/O's cab heading down into the Rockaways.
Too bad at the time I would have been too small to reach the controller and hold it down. :)
Just curious if any other Subtalker ERA members is considering the May trip to Prague?
So close, yet so far. I'll be in Amsterdam in May. If I don't get too wasted, I'm going to go to Paris, Frankfurt and Brussels on days trips.
I'll be in Amsterdam in May. If I don't get too wasted, I'm going to go to Paris, Frankfurt and Brussels on days trips.
Dunno ... from what I've heard about Amsterdam, that might be a difficult "if" to meet!
This isn't another Redbird fantrip, is it?
This isn't another Redbird fantrip, is it?
HeHe, it may only be a quick trip on a Redbird through the 76th Street Station vortex to Prague.....
Do these count as redbirds?
I'm afraid not -- I don't see any rust.
Nice... I put it in my screen-saver rotation, which hertofore had only subway and transit pictures in it.
Elias
J Deo,
If you're reading this,
Please don't send me any more feedback without correcting your email address. I have tried to reply to you several times and it doesn't go through because you're not putting in a proper email address.
-Dave
Got this in feedback, I can't quite figure out what cars and which manufacturers are being renumbered. Can someone straighten this out for me?
Regarding R-142/142A assignments and roster numbers for
this fleet above road # 7180. The NYCTA decided to use
Former R-46 road numbers 1101 thru 1250 as replacement
car numbers for 7181 to 7210, and 7731 thru 7850,as to
not having a conflict with the R142A series
(7211-7730) IRT subway cars numbering system.
Dave:
Option II R-142s 7731-7850 are to become 1101-1220 (120 cars).
Option I R-142s 7181-7210 are to become 1221-1250 (30 cars).
There is no renumbering of R-142As (Kawasakis), but in the earlier scheme Bombardiers would have sandwiched them.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I just rode the Long Beach to LA Blue Line LRV for the first time in a number of years. Some interesting aspects:
It has street running, high-speed private ROW, and tunnel sections. Three car trains with proof-of-payment (a sherriff really did come through!). Interesting things include a crossing (right-hand running changes to left-hand running just before the Long Beach end-of-line loop) and a freight line at grade crossing.
On the return from LA there was some civil disobediance on board: a gentleman asked a woman to turn off her boombox (which was on very loud). A 15-minutes shouting match ensued, including racial epithets and many curses. They were in the rear half of the first car, but so loud that the operator heard them from his enclosed full-width cab. He came out and tried to calm them down, but to no avail. So he proceeded to the next stop where sherriffs came on-board and asked the woman to step off the train.
The operator had the curtain behind him wide open, so it was a great railfan view. No sign of our SubTalker friend with his videocam, however.
I also road the Red Line subway ... the old Breda cars still sound just like DC's Metrorail cars (but of course look much different).
It's nice out here (70 degrees) after our foot of snow in Boston Friday. But with 3000 meteorologists here (I'm at the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society), "interesting" weather is bound to arrive soon!
...and that's Transit and Weather Together
Hmmm, you would think that the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society would be held in a location with more interesting weather. Noreasters and Lake Effect snow would be two better alternatives to LA's Blah "Climate Control" weather.
You'd think.
But the logistics win. The AMS needs: meeting rooms for up to 2000 people at once, and also up to 25 simultaneous break-out sessions of 50-250 people. Banquet facilities for up to 3000 people, as well as up to 50 simultaneous meal meetings. 2000 hotel rooms. 30,000 sq. ft. of exhibit space. On and on, there are only a few convention centers in the country that that will work: Orlando, Dallas, Seattle, Long Beach, Albuquerque, and Phoenix are the major ones. (If you're wondering about the Javits Center, it won't work because the work rules make it too expensive for exhibitors and meeting planners. Philadelphia and Chicago are also out for the same reason.)
On topic: While AMS likes to go to "big cities," Long Beach is always a crowd pleaser because of the proximity of the Blue Line light rail line with easy access to downtown LA, and decent (but not perfect) transfers to LAX airport via a Green Line transfer then shuttle bus from the "Aviation" station.
If you're wondering about the Javits Center, it won't work because the work rules make it too expensive for exhibitors and meeting planners.
Union Logic in action. Instead of cutting costs and easing work rules and thereby earning some money, if not as much as they really want, they remain high-priced and rigid and end up getting nothing. Morons.
I only rode the LA blue line once, but I really enjoyed it, and the green and red lines as well. My experience affirmed what Salaam Allah keeps telling us, that the blue line is the most used of the lines. I really liked the new equipment on the green line, even though it is less used. The red line looked nice and was enjoyable, but it didn't go as far as I needed to go.
Mark
(P.S.: By the way, I think you meant "civil disturbance" rather than "civil disobediance"...two very different things.)
the blue line isthe higest ridership andmost successful........
.....was told that by mta-la sources !!
the green line uses siemens p200s which will be usedon the gold line
the red line is incompatible with all other rail systems...........
a much unfortunate mistake building it that way
SEE BELOW LONG BEACH BLUE LINE YARDS P2000s & PA85 sharyo lrvs..
The ones on the bridge look very European -- like Swiss trains.
all made in japan like sony ..........
>>> LONG BEACH BLUE LINE YARDS P2000s & PA85 sharyo lrvs <<<
Great photo, but you should make clear that the upper train is a Blue Line train in service. The two P2000s below appear to be new arrivals because they do not yet seem to have a full livery nor any serial numbers on them.
Tom
ok i thought that was what i said .........
thanks for the compliment on the photo .....timing got it right ..
Nice Pictures and little smog
No sign of our SubTalker friend with his videocam, however.
That's because you didn't tell me you were going to LA! :)
--Mark
Today (and yesterday too), the W was running southbound on the N line. Unlike past versions, though, the W was making all stops between 36 St and Stillwell on the sea Beach. The N ran northbound in service to Pacific, relayed and then ran lite from Pacific to 86 St, leaving Pacific at its regularly scheduled time. This meant trains would come out of the relay and sit for 8 minutes at Pacific southbound with the lights out and the doors closed.
It has something to do with a new control panel at Murphy Tower (a seperate GO). Switches/homesignals along the Fourth Ave. corridor will be controlled at the relay rooms for a few weeks with tower operators assigned there.
No. It has nothing to do with Murphy. I was there all day today. NOBODY could explain the stupidity of this G.O. If the track is open, and the stations are open, and you are putting miles on the cars, and they are running where they belong WHY DON'T YOU LET THE TRAIN BE IN SERVICE?????????????? I'm sorry, This one has got to be the all time stupidest G.O.
I'm with you. I watched at Pacific as two W trainloads ran across the platform to transfer to the N, only to find that they couldn't get on the N and they should have stayed on the W, which by then had already left.
I asked one of the T/O's about the GO, and he found it as odd as I did.
I tried to come up with possible reasons. Maybe N's were running on the Sea Beach express? So I took a W to 8th Avenue and waited there to check, and, no, N's were running (light) on the local track. Maybe this was an attempt to avoid possible delays on the W at 86th Street behind terminating N's? But that doesn't stop the TA in similar settings under much tighter scheduling constraints. At 10-minute headways, schedule the W to reach 86th on the :x0 and the N to reach 86th on the :x2, and the crew has 8 minutes to clear out the train and move it out of the way before it gets in the way of a W.
I give up.
Silly is an understatement. For those who haven't been following, the southbound W was making all Sea Beach stops, so the N ran on its regular route but didn't carry any passengers southbound.
We need a good silly G.O. every once in a while to keep things real. Real and humorous. Without humor we'd all go nuts. So I applaud NYCT for keeping it real and making us laugh.
---Brian
Too bad Graham Chapman is no longer around; he'd stop it if it got too silly.
I seems like the TA just doesn't want to run regular local and express service on the 4th Ave/Sea Beach weekends even when they CAN do it...
When transferring to the BMT at Atlantic Av/Pacific Sst I just wait for an R. Even when the express tracks are working they won't let you make a transfer since the trains switch tracks. Bah, humbug.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Silly is a understatement; this is just STUPID! No southbound N service, funny shit so basically the W replaced N service via the Sea Beach before running to Stillwell Av. This GO is beyond me, a train only running in one direction :-\......
That is stupid.Since it was that way they should've had no N's running,have the W's run in both directions over the SeaBeach and have a shuttle train run over the West End from 36St-CI.
No, the point of the GO on the W was to keep the northbound West End track clear. What would be the point of running the W as a shuttle instead of the N? That's the way it was before 9/8/02 and it was switched for good reason.
Why didn't they just run Southbound W trains express on the West End Line?
I've wondered the same. Usually W's run express on the Sea Beach -- I say "usually" because this is a very common GO. I don't recall them ever running express on their home line. (A few years ago, I do remember N's running express on the West End one weekend, but never W's or B's.)
My guess is that two of the West End's three tracks are removed from service for these GO's. A few weeks ago, when I was on a W that got stuck behind a stopped work train for ten minutes and was then sent express to make up time, it ran on the local track, but I wouldn't read too much into that -- after all, the next train on the local track was well in front of us, so there was little risk of running up behind it.
What's odd is that I ride this GO often but I rarely see any actual work being done. I ride it on Sunday, usually in the afternoon; perhaps the work is generally finished by then, but the GO runs until its scheduled termination time.
Most of what's happening from these GOs is 'behind the scenes' work - currently, they are rewiring the board at Murphy Tower and have signals out of service. No signals - no service.
That would explain why I don't see any work, but it doesn't explain why two tracks are out at a time. If the work took place on only one track's signals on a given weekend, W trains wouldn't have to be banished to the Sea Beach in either direction. The middle track could be done on those few weekends without work on the other two tracks or even on weekdays (send the M to Chambers, 59th, or straight through to Stillwell).
When the home signals are taken off line, both ends of the switch must be taken out together.
Amazingly, everyone always notices when something gets worse, but people rarely notice when something gets better. In this case I am talking about the LIRR freight operations. In the late 80's and early 90's it was a disaster. In the mid 90's the LIRR started to try to clean it up, and finally the New York and Atlantic took over, and now, it is slowly increasing freight on Long Island.
I certainly noticed the change. In the late 80's and 90's, in my late teens and early 20's, I was able to explore and hang out alot where Conrail interchanged with the LIRR at Fresh Pond Junction. Many times right from the bridge pictured here. No one cared, no one bothered you, and the engineers blew the horn when they noticed us. In between trains, the M train passing next to us kept us busy. The morning former Montauk locals would blow by, and many LIRR deadhead moves while waiting for the morning Conrail train, all seen from that bridge, and near-by farmer's Oval. One unfortunate by-product of the increased freight activity is that you could never stand around there anymore. With good reason, the NYA does not take too kindly to tresspassing.
So here is Pond Tower in the late 80's, ready to fall apart, and later after the LIRR began trying to pick up the pieces of it's freight department in the mid 90's, and used it as a freight office. Now I believe it is a NYA freight office, but I haven't been there in at least 7 years, as you can no longer walk around there freely since then.
Ick, that siding they applied is hideous...and they covered over the first story concrete base as well. The new asphalt roof is equally abysmal. Its bad enough they went with cheap components, but the colours are creating a taste vacuum that could threaten to suck in some of the R42's in the yard behind it.
My choice? Frist story concrete, NYA green. Second story, white with preferably wood siding, but vynal would suffice. Green wood trim around the windows to complete the NYA look. Gray or bluish roof shingles.
HeHe, yeah, the new siding on POND is pretty bad, I like the cedar shakes a lot better, but I must say it fared better than it's not so far neighbor on the Bay Ridge Branch - Fremont Tower......
I was really sorry the day they tore Fremont down. I had some good times train watching right there at Fremont also. It's one of the places where I first started getting interesting in trains.
When did they remove it?
I think it was around 1993.
I don't have my original photos in front of me, but I think the first photo was taken in July 1992, the middle one in January 1992, and the razed photo was October 1993, about a week after it was gone. Give or take a year.
Here is another angle of a before and after of POND tower, both taken from the NYCRR bridge:
Nice picture of Metro mall. When I ride the (M) line, I can see those tracks, however I'm always looking out the side of the window(left) where you see Metro mall and Fresh Pond yard. I never notced that until I saw this picture. I will check out that tower next time I ride the (M).
Yeah, and looking closely at the photo with Metro Mall in the backround, it really dates the photo. Sears Brand Central still used to be there (it was up those stairs when you first enter Metro Mall - they used to have a nice little music store there where I used to buy cassettes - CD's hadn't taken off yet). Of course even Pergament is gone and I think Waldbaum's must be gone now too. (Gee is there any stores in down there anymore?) In the age of the first photo, I bet TSS used to still be upstairs, (before Caldor), by the time the second photo was there, I'm sure it was Caldor.
In the back of Metro Mall are a few stores still. Waldbaums, Burger King, Sam Goody and a few others. The only bad thing is that there is no way to go down there and back from K-mart and Toys-R-Us without going down the ramp and back.
The only bad thing is that there is no way to go down there and back from K-mart and Toys-R-Us without going down the ramp and back.
Yeah, that's what I used to hate about that Metro Mall on Metropolitan Ave. I never understood why they didn't add an escalator or something there to connect the upper and lower levels. I haven't been there in years, but when I was a kid I used to go there a lot. I would either take the M train, and then be able to easily go to TSS (and later Caldor) on street level, but then had to walk all the way down that steep hill to go to Burger King and Sam Goody or the Sears Brand Central record store. Other times I would walk, but I had to come through Farmer's Oval, and then cut across the Montauk Branch tracks in front of POND tower (at the time the fences were open on both sides of the track), then I would be on the lower level, but had to walk all the way up that steep hill to get the M train to go home.
By the way I think Waldbaums is also gone now too, but I heard that, like I said, I haven't been there in at least 7 years.
^^^"The only bad thing is that there is no way to go down there and back from K-mart and Toys-R-Us without going down the ramp and back."^^^
Dependent on the year, there was a shuttle bus [van] between the
upper & lower mall from apprx 0900 ~ 1700. It was called the
Waldbaum's Shuttle, when they were still there. Disappeared for
a time and then reappeared with Caldor's. Now it's gone also.
Been doing the weekly treak with the Bride, for several years now.
Pick her up at Court House Square and chauffer her to her meeting
at Metro Mall.
It was interesting, last year waiting on Jackson Avenue, when the
Silverbirds were in the minority on the [7]. Also when the Willy B
was closed and the Slant-40's were king on the (M) Shuttle.
;-) Sparky
I remember that shuttle, I wish it was still remember. It s absolutely a pain in the ass to walk down that ramp, especially f you're carrying something when you don't have a car @_@.
I remember that shuttle, I wish it was still remember. It s absolutely a pain in the ass to walk down that ramp, especially if you're carrying something when you don't have a car @_@.
I remember that shuttle, I wish it was still there. It s absolutely a pain in the ass to walk down that ramp, especially if you're carrying something when you don't have a car @_@.
I haven't worked at Metropolitan Station since last December. I wanted to go down to Burger King. But it was a long tiring walk down and up. And this is probably the year the shuttle bus isn't running. The last time I was down there was December of 2000.
Being a regular visitor, weekly with the bride to the lower section
of the Metro Mall, here's the latest poop. Walbaum's was gone before
Pergament's. BJ Wholesale Club occupies the whole rear section of
the lower complex. Also they have a tire shop out toward the southeast section of the parking lot.
Was a beer distributor, then Pergament's Lumber Center.
Burger King, Sam Goody, Radio Shack, Rockaway Bedding, a Optical store, a All State agent, Fashion Bug & Fashion Bug Plus, Fabco Shoes & "Weight Watcher's" plus some smaller kiosks.
The current tenants do not provide a shuttle service for those whom
do not drive to the lower level.
Have to pay my "dues" for speding time here & at my Trolley Museums.
But when the warmer weather returns, I can venture outdoors and catch
some action on NY&A and the (M) in the distance.
;-) Sparky
HeHe, thanks for the update on a little piece of my childhood there. To bring this back to rail topics you mentioned to NYA in the back of the parking lot. I remember years before going there on my own coming there with my father, he would usually go to the beverage distributer there before heading into Pergament, and he used to park right at the tracks. I remember loving when it would take a long time for him to come out of the store, because that would give me time to get out and look at the tracks, hoping for a train to come.
Incidentally, does anyone remember the siding that used to run curved right through the parking lot there? It survived until they resurfaced the parking lot there. In the early days of the mall there in the early 80's, cars would park right over the siding (it was out of service). The siding used to come in at the extreme end of the parking lot from the Montauk Branch, curve through the lot, and wind up going into a huge door right into the building, at the M train side of the building where Levitt's furniture was (is?). I think it used to serve Macy's Bargain store when it used to occupy the whole lower level of the mall, before there was a mall. I have seen a photo of some of the SW1001's inside the building.
^^^"Levitt's furniture was (is?)"^^^
Levitt's is still there. Here's a trivia question, who was the
first major tenant upstairs at Metro Mall???
;-) Sparky
Robert Hall Village.
I remember it as a really small kid in the 70's when they were building the place. I think Bohack was the supermarket before Waldbaums which was upstairs where Toys R Us is now.
Besides Robert Hall, there was also a NYPD property something. IIRC it was where Toys-R-Us is now going all the way to the west end of the building.
Years ago I wrote a Letterman style top 10 list.
It was "Top 10 ways you've been working for TA"
The top 2 ways were:
2) You go to the pick room, look at the board and think of Robert Hall's slogan of "Select. Don't settle"
And the Number one way you've been working too long for TA:
1) You actually remember Robert Hall!
Besides Robert Hall, there was also a NYPD property something. IIRC it was where Toys-R-Us is now going all the way to the west end of the building.
Years ago I wrote a Letterman style top 10 list.
It was "Top 10 ways you've been working TOO LONG for TA"
The top 2 ways were:
2) You go to the pick room, look at the board and think of Robert Hall's slogan of "Select. Don't settle"
And the Number one way you've been working too long for TA:
1) You actually remember Robert Hall!
Besides Robert Hall, there was also a NYPD property something.
Corrections still has its training academy in the mall.
I remember the siding. Right through the parking lot. It went to the Macy's warehouse. Once a year, I believe, they used to open up the place and have a sale, mostly furniture. My family went there once during the sale when I was young and there was a boxcar within the building. Really a bummer when they repaved it. Knew that was the end when they did. Who were the original tenants of the great building (is there a proper name?) I thought it was TSS upstairs and Macy's in the back. Was there anything of significance there before the building was built? And lastly, how old is it? Thanks.
Robert Hall Village was the original tenant upstairs, before TSS.
I don't know about down stairs, but don't believe anything was there before Macy's, so I guess that siding was always used for Macy's. What was really interesting about the siding is that the trains would go right into the building though a big door. I wish the photo I have seen of the LIRR SW1001's inside the building was online somewhere, but I saw it at a slideshow once about Long Island freight.
I was real young when they were building the place. I very vaguely remember when they opened up. I vaguely remember my parents going shopping when RHV first opened, and we parked on the roof, and went down that long escalator from the roof(that's what I remember). This photo from the Metro Ave section on this site was from the mid 70's and the building must have been almost new in this photo.
In addition, speaking of that long escalator to the roof. An interesting sidenote. Where Toys R Us is used to be a supermarket. It was first Bohack's, and when that chain went out of business, it became Waldbaums. What is interesting about having a supermarket in that space is that you HAD to park on the roof. You would buy your groceries, and then you would take your shopping cart to the escalator, and it would lock into place and begin the ascent to the roof. The system seemed to work. Every so often a worker would collect the shopping carts from the roof, and bring them down the 3rd, center escalator in a big line. I wonder if they ever had a problem with "runaway" shopping carts. Of course you still use shopping carts for the businesses that occupy the space now, but with a supermarket just about every shopper leaves with a shopping cart, so the shopping cart traffic must have been much greater when it was a supermarket.
Very weird. I remember the strange wheels the carts used to have in order to lock onto the ramp up to the roof. Didn't work all the time. Kind of resembled a bunch of interlocking teeth. Yes, I remember the workers coming down the middle with a long line of carts. Looked very dangerous to me. Imagine the kind of fun you could have had when the store was closed and just letting the cart go from the top. :-))
I'm sure many a shopping cart became a runaway shopping cart on that ramp escalator after the stores closed. It seems impossible to have not happened, especially with teenaged workers. It must've be part of the job applications for the stores there....."Do not let a shopping cart loose at the top of the escalator from the roof".
HeHE, I was a faily unroudy kid, and even I thought about it when I was a teenager!
I was a faily unroudy kid
Chris, did you mean unrowdy or unruly?:-)
Hehe, obviously "unrowdy". Sometimes I type faster than my brain can process.... That's when I make dumb typos.
I was a faily unroudy kid
Chris, did you mean unrowdy or unruly?:-)
Hehe, obviously "unrowdy". Sometimes I type faster than my brain can process.... That's when I make dumb typos.
Lol...Alright, I thought about that some more. "Unrowdy" is not a word either - should be "not rowdy".
Anyway, your joke wouldn't have worked if I thought about it before I typed it properly. Let's just leave it as you said:
I was a fairly unruly kid.......:-)
There go the shopping carts down the escalator.:-)
Escalator = a power-driven set of stairs arranged like an endless belt that ascend or descend continuously.
Since we have gone so far OFF TOPIC with Metro Mall is the moving walkway an Escalator? Where's the STAIRS??? >GG<
;-) Sparky
"Since we have gone so far OFF TOPIC with Metro Mall is the moving walkway an Escalator? Where's the STAIRS??? >GG<"
To get back on topic, there is a moving walkway at Bank station in London, linking to the (currently closed) Waterloo and City Line platforms. When it first opened, this device was called a Travolator, which may be a trade-mark name. Since then, these things have proliferated in airports. (On topic again, there are ones linking London Heathrow Airport's Terminal 3 to the Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 tube station too.) But I don't know if there is any generally accepted name for them - I don't think they are escalators.
Since we have gone so far OFF TOPIC with Metro Mall is the moving walkway an Escalator? Where's the STAIRS???
HeHE, I never thought my nice Pond/Fremont Towers thread would turn into this, but since it went way of topic anyway (and I really have been having fun with this thread)....
Keep in mind that that "whatever it's called thing" from ground level to the roof at Metro Mall is more than just a walkway like you see at airports, or train stations, etc like Fytton mentioned. It ascends about 5 stories (more or less?) from ground level to the roof level parking. I don't think you could really call it a walkway, as it does elevate you like a escalator would. It's not really an escalator though either (no stairs). So what is it then? I certainly wouldn't want to walk up it if it was broken, it's a very steep ramp-walkway-escalator thingy.
^^^"(and I really have been having fun with this thread)...."^^^
ROTFL. But at least when we go off topic, we change the title. >GG<
;-) Sparky
The "whatever it's called thing" is now an escalator.
The "whatever it's called thing" is now an escalator.
WITH STAIRS??????
It really has been a long time since I've been there!
And there is also a "thing" that carries shopping carts to and from the roof.
That walkway is now an escalator. Everyone knows that walkway took FOREVER to get to the bottom/top. If you you started from the top, and stood on it without moving forward, it would take about 4 minutes to get to the bottom!!!! At least now with the escalator it only takes about one minute, It's much better.
DaRidgewoodBusBuff,
Thanks for the update. I may venture to Lower Metro Mall weekly,
but do not have any reason to visit K-Mart a/o Toys-r-Us so didn't
know they installed an escalator with steps. Happy Shopping. >GG<
;-) Sparky
According to the escalator mechanics where I work, moving walkways are just flat escalators.
Peace,
ANDEE
The moving walkway is now an escalator. Very steep with fencing around it. Reminds me of the metal things in front of the slant-nose R40's.
Douce Man,
I may venture to Lower Metro Mall weekly as the chauffer for the
bride & her meeting, but have no reason to visit either vendor
on the upper level. If the Shuttle were still running, I may be
inclined to do so, while waiting for the "BOSS". >GG<
;-) Sparky
I call it an eclinator.
I combined the latin word clinare meaning to lean (this is where incline came from) with the word elevator.
This was in the spirit of the 1901 combination of scala (stairs) and elevator to produce escalator.
"Slidewalk"
Very interesting. I had never even heard of that store before. Was it a variety store like TSS or K-mart? I don't even remember the Bohack's but I know of the chain. There was one close to my home. My senior class got busted parking their cars in the parking lot in the back. What did the school expect when the back lot of the school was at times mostly a swamp. Now serving "Swamp Soup"!
Bohacks was a supermarket chain.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, I'm sorry, upon rereading your post I realize that you were refering to TSS/Times Square Stores. They were sort of a low brow
K-Mart, a regular junk shop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope, I think he was referring to Robert Hall Village.
All I remember from RHV was the escalator ride down, because I was really young, but I think it was a TSS-like store, or KMart of the 70's. Even sort of a low-end Sears type store. But again, I don't really remember the store itself.
Nope, I think he was referring to Robert Hall Village.
All I remember from RHV was the escalator ride down, because I was really young, but I think it was a TSS-like store, or KMart of the 70's. Even sort of a low-end Sears type store. But again, I don't really remember the store itself.
Robert Hall was a chain of men's clothing stores that was either regional to the northeast or nationwide. It sold mostly suits, sport jackets, dress pants and stuff like that. The chain went belly-up sometime in the 1970's, as men's clohing became more informal. Back in the chain's heyday, men who worked in offices usually wore suits to work, or at least jackets and ties, so there was high demand for that sort of clothing. Today, of course, most suits are found covering the anuses of big shot Alpha males, like those who take the LIRR from Ronkonkoma. Your everyday office drone dresses more casually. There just isn't the demand to support places like Robert Hall.
Thinking back to my younger days, while as far as I know I never had any clothes from Robert Hall, I knew some kids who did. The clothes seemed to be poorly made and never fit right.
Peter,
Your right on the mark about Robert Hall and mens clothing. There
big sales pitch was 2 pair of pants with every suit. Also one of
the treads mentioned, after you picked at 370 Jay you could go to
Robert Hall. The Robert Hall, I remember from my youth was at
Smith & Livingston Streets, just 2 blocks away from 370 Jay.
;-) Sparky
Robert Hall this season will show you the reason, low overhead, low overhead! Do you remember Howard Clothes and Crawford Clothes?
How about this:
Your money buys more at a Crawford Store
64 stores saving gallons galore
Crawford sells clothes and makes them too
and they pass the savings along to you.
No overhead
No overhead
No no no overhead
Your money buys more at a Crawford Store
yes your money buys more at a Crawford Store.
Fred,
No matter what they say about you or the Sea Beach, you memory bank of
the past is AMAZINNNNNNNNNNNN. Thanks for the Blast from the Past! >GG<
;-) Sparky
Actually Sparky, I made a mistake. Instead of no overhead, it was no middle man. Anyway, glad you enjoyed it. Robert Hall was the no overhead clothier.
Does anyone remember Dennison Clothiers who practically owned WABC radio in the wee hours of the 1960's ? "Money talks, and nobody walks at Dennsion". Those radio commercials were tough to avoid because of their saturation.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>"Money talks, and nobody walks at Dennsion".<<<<
A WHOLE lot of other things went on at Dennison.
Peace,
ANDEE
when the values go up-up-up, and the prices go down-down-down
robert hall this season will show you the reason
etc etc..forgot the rest.
i worked there as a kid for 2 days (inventory) westcchester ave under the #6 in the bronx.
Wolfman: You had practically all of it. The rest went very simply as:-----low overhead.......low overhead. That was it. And I like your handle Wolfman. I once had a wolfman mask and wore it on Halloween.
my secret is my middle name is 'wolfgang'..very common in the 'old country'
ya'know i've been reading your posts for a long time now..i feel like i speaking to a celebrity...i have goosebumps.
>>>..i feel like i speaking to a celebrity...i have goosebumps.
<<<
Don't swell his head any more than it already is. I heard he had to raise all the doorways in his house. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Gee Andee! And here I thought I was becoming just one of the guys. Well, back to the drawing board.
Wolfman, you should railfan with SBF, when he's in town. He's a
magnet for attracting good looking women in conversation on the
rails. Did it for two days in October. Fred, silence to this
magnetism of yours with Linda. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Linda knows all about this but she trusts me completely. She would also know if I got out of line. She knows what I'm doing before I do it. I can't fool my girl at all. She is on to me from the get-go, but she also knows that I do like the company of women and enjoy engaging them in conversation. It is just an enjoyable experience.
^^^"I do like the company of women and enjoy engaging them in conversation. It is just an enjoyable experience."^^^
Yes but Fred, from my two days with you, you have the finesse to converse with the finer lookers/dressers of the opposite gender.
When I caught you were conversing with some nice looking women. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I was a witness, too.:)
SBF a BABE MAGNET? Geez, I gotta start thinking good thoughts about Shrub then. :)
Forget it. Babes don't go for stupid men, since there's no contest to the Woman vs. Man thing.
Heh. I could make a comment, but I won't. :)
Nah! No celebrity, just an enthusiastic poster on Subtalk with a strong emotional attachment to the Sea Beach train. I've made numerous friends on board, some of which have become very close buddies. I do get carried away sometimes when politics enters the scene but all in all this is a good website for train buffs like oursleves.
"I once had a wolfman mask and wore it on Halloween."
That's why ridership on the Slum-Beach line plummented for the last 20 years, you scared them away Fred.
wore it to keep from getting mugged
Shame on me for doing that Kool-D. And here I thought I was one of the good guys. With Andee saying I have a big head, and you saying I'm scaring the customers away, quite possibly I should contact Hollywood in case they make a movie calling for my attributes. How about that?
How this for a Holloywood picture?
CREATURE FROM THE YELLOW SUBWAY LINE!!!
That's ok, but two things are required. I become a good monster and I get the girl in the end. Can we swing that?
Time to appoint an Indepedent Counsel, methinks. Moo. :)
"Can we swing that?"
OK how about you Tarzan or better yet, George of the Jungle (WATCH OUT FOR THAT TREE!!!)
I remember these stores on Kings Highway, Brooklyn!
--Mark
Thanks for clearing that up. Wow, that seems like a huge store for just men's dress suits, etc!
What did the school expect when the back lot of the school was at times mostly a swamp. Now serving "Swamp Soup"!
Yeah, Lake CK. It almost seems that parking lot behind the school was a swamp more often that it was a parking lot!
>>>....so I guess that siding was always used for Macy's.<<<
Macy*s never used rail to distribute to their NY metro area stores.
Peace,
ANDEE
so I guess that siding was always used for Macy's.
Macy*s never used rail to distribute to their NY metro area stores.
Macy's probably did get shipments from manufacturers delivered by rail to its Metro Mall facility, however.
Macys uses central processing facilities. Manufacturers do not ship direct to store. Only in very rare circumstances is a mfg. allowed to ship direct, and then they are very small orders. This has been SOP for many years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Macy*s never used rail to distribute to their NY metro area stores.
It was in the Macy's part of the building, and it was no doubt used. I've seen photos of it in use at Macy's at Metro Mall. The trains enetered right into the Macy's section of the building. Rememeber however, that the "Macy's" at Metro Mall wasn't a regular Macy's store open to the public. It was a "Macy's Distribution Center", whatever that means.
Oh, it was a DC. I see, I thought it was a store.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember TSS when I was a little kid. Them I remember it changing to Caldor, and now it's a K-Mart(which probably isn't going to last too long either). Toys R' Us is there(I only visit the videogames section)
Downstairs, Both Pergament and Waldbaum's has been replaced by BJ's Wholesale Club.
Ever notice that whatever goes into the space currently occupied by K Mart always go belly up? Robert Hall Village, TSS, Caldor and soon K Mart. Have I missed any others in that space?
Sorry for a late start, but I finally figured out how to make an image appear directly onto the posting board.
Each image posted will have a short description and the name of the person responsible for the photo.
Hope you enjoy.
We're in Selkirk, New York, on a snowy February 26, 1994, where Conrail's SENE (Selkirk-New England) has just departed Selkirk yard behind SD 60 No. 6855, on its way toward the Hudson River and the Berkshire Hills of Massachusetts.
Photo by Alan Crossley.
Greetings from Selkirk, NY and THANKS! Oh how I wish the snow were as thin as it appears in the photo. :)
good shooting ..............nice !!
What's the status of the R160 order? How come the MTA put in the R160 Order for the first delivery in the year 2005-2006? I like the Rolling Stock on the A Line, but I would like to see some new equipment on there though.
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
Status: the cars are on order.
The reason they're to start coming in in 2005 is it takes that long to put in the orders for the componentry and get the factories set up to fabricate the carbodies and start installing the components once they're built.
David
It has been posted on SubTalk that the R143 order was supposed to be completed on Tuesday, Febraury 4,2003, Is the order complete? And How many trainsets are left for completion?
-R143 AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
And you really expected it to be completed on time, haa! All the trainsets will be there soon unless they are already but are not in service yet.
All 212 R-143s have arrived on NYCT property as per post last week.
OK, so the last one straggled home on February 7, not the 4th.
That does not mean all are in passenger service. In fact, the entire collection may not be running for many months, depending on progress of CBTC installation on the (L) 14 St.-Canarsie Line.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Watching a Ch.7 news feature about a training facility for rescue workers in Standard (!) WV, called "The Tunnel of Terror" - interesting stuff, and what to my wondering eyes should appear in the middle of all the training stuff is Boston MBTA Green Line LRV #3541.
Thought I'd mention this in case someone's looking for that LRV.
wayne
There's also a town called Nitro, West Virginia.
I hear it's a real blast.
(Booooooo....)
Mark
At Redbird Collectibles there is now FINE PRINT which states.. hahem....
"Submit offers prior to close of business 3/7/03"
....Wh-wh-wh-wh-whaddaya suppose they plan to do with these
WANTED "Salvageable" goods AFTER the 7th!???????????
I didn't happen to notice this FINE PRINT the first time
BMTMan slipped us this linkie dink..
"....Wh-wh-wh-wh-whaddaya suppose they plan to do with these
WANTED "Salvageable" goods AFTER the 7th!???????????"
They should let the Transit Museum handle this.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm going to guess that "surplus property" is looking to sell the remains as a "package deal" to a bulker. Once gone, they'll either trash it all, or see if the museum is interested in it. Given that the museum needs to make some money to offset the storage and haulage costs, MTA was probably looking to get as much as they could ahead of time before letting it go at a bargain basement price to the museum.
Dunno how many storm doors the museum would take, but I'd bet they'll take the REMAINER ...
This hour I observed a train of R-33s running through the GO area south of Jackson Av. Ironically enough, this was the train sitting in the middle at 149th St upper during the past day. The train consisted of 8862-63, 9000-9001, 9020-21, 9026-27, and a pair that escapes me at the moment...
It's absolutely fitting to have old timers brake in newly installed rail!
Only hours earlier had the el playing host to an army of SIX! work trains doing repairs on the track.
-Stef
P.S. I haven't heard anything concrete about Redbird Car Transfers to the 4, but this calls for an investigation. If it is happening, then perhaps (?) the reign of the 9200 and 9300 series R-33s could be at an end.
The redbirds and R-62's that you saw on the 5 this weekend, were all from the 4 line. The last eight 5 trains to arrive at 149 upper level were instructed to clean out their train, and lay-up at Mosholu. With Mosholu Yard basically empty this weekend, anyone with a yard job at Mosh had it good this weekend.
I used to think Queens residents had it bad during 63rd connector construction. Now I realize how lucky we really are. Bronx residents live at the mercy of GO's.
This weekend, you had split service on the 2 and 5 lines between Dyre-White Plains and E.180, 5 trains ran from 149 to Bowling Green and 2's ran from 149 to Flatbush. Then, you had a GO on 2 tk at Canal St which caused GC tower to send all s/b 4 and 5 trains down 1 tk to Brookly Bridge. This slowed down 6 service. This also meant that passengers at local s/b stations from 42 to BB watched trains pass them by on a 2-to-1 ratio. Frustrating! You also had 3 trains terminating at 137. We all know what kind of Congo lines this creates for n/b service in that area. There's also a "slow speed order" on 2 tk just south of 149. 2 tk was the only track in service between 135 and 149(2 trains wrong-railed into Mott). THIS MEANT THAT ALL 2 TRAINS OPERATING BETWEEN LENOX JUNCTION AND MOTT OPERATED AT 10 MPH IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. Ouch! You have no idea what this did to service.
The saddest part of all this was watching a blind person with a frustrated seeing eye dog try to make sense of any of this. I felt so bad for them.
But there was some humor to it all. Someone put a <4> diamond in service. That's right. All route signs from front to end read 4 diamond.
Perhaps the IRT is like a zoo, where chaos reigns. Oh well! So much for progress!
Pelham Bay Dave's office train of Redbirds came up north a few moments ago. I guess that train is laying up at the East until this morning.
-The IRT, You Gotta Love It
I would have to assume Pelham Bay Dave's office train is actually from E.180, while the redbirds that worked the road on the 5 from 149-BG were from the 4.
I hope Paul Matus and G.J. Christiano will forgive me for lifting this graphic, it appears in the most recent issue of THE THIRD RAIL with reference to the IRT strike in 1919. To quote the article, "The IRT didn’t enjoy the best public image. Artist W.A. Rogers expressed the public’s feelings in this 1905 cartoon from the New York Herald. The inscription on the car door says “Trains run at the co’s convenience.” The angry gentleman in colonial dress is Father Knickerbocker, a popular allegorical representative of the city citizenry."
Nice to know some things never change. :)
Whoops! Screwed up the link to the article ... here it is:
THE THIRD RAIL - IRT Strike of 1919
Off-thread but on-title, I saw a slant up-close and across the platform at Queensboro Plaza, got on my first Redbird. What I noticed was how much technology was applied to lighting them brightly, using long Fresnel lenses across the tubes, and the shrouds on the fans. Both of which would, of course, have reeked of old-fashionedness when the 40- and 60-series came out. Very pleasant to look at and a wonderful new experience. Thank you for allowing me to share my loss-of-virginity story.
Unfortunately, the Fresnel lenses were taken out of all the cars except the Corona equipment (basically, what you see on the 7) -- the mainline Redbirds have the same boring covers as, e.g., the R-32's.
Presumably in tribute to the departing Redbirds, much of the new lighting going up in the Times Square rehab on the upper mezzanine level has similar lenses. A nice touch.
"THIS MEANT THAT ALL 2 TRAINS OPERATING BETWEEN LENOX JUNCTION AND MOTT OPERATED AT 10 MPH IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. Ouch! You have no idea what this did to service."
Luch, see my earlier post(149St GO). Train Operators were instructed to do no more than 5MPH!!!!! This causes delays and congestion and of course, trains were turned in Manhattan.
Da Beastmaster
Yup, that's how it was on the IRT this weekend, see my 'Not a good weekend for the IRT' thread. Also, all Brooklyn bound 2 & 3 trains were running express from Atlantic-Franklin Av.
Yup, I saw that same train in the middle track at 149 St/GC on Saturday when I rode the shuttle bus [story on Bustalk]. I saw a 9200's Redbird train on the 4 on Saturday as well.
9000 - 9001 still in service? They sat out for, what, four years after a fire, right? They must be in pretty good shape then ...
--Mark
That fire was years ago, pre-GOH. Those two cars were lemons before they were overhauled. As far as I am aware, they haven't performed badly since GOH.
David
The return to service of the Central Line of London Underground is going to be slower than originally anticipated. Currently, www.thetube.com is saying:
Waterloo and City Line reopening late on Thursday February 13, at the earliest.
Central Line partial reopening (the eastern end only) approximately one week after that. Reopening of the whole line postponed to mid-March and even then with reduced rush-hour frequencies. Service with full scheduled frequency won't be back till the end of March.
Since February 3, ten additional bus services have been operating. These are designed to spread the load around a number of underground and national rail stations, rather than have everybody try to get to the same one or two railheads.
The replacement buses have some pretty odd routes:
B - Theydon Bois and Epping (I bet people in Theydon Bois find this really useful... especially as the only other option is the 500 to Romford)
C - Epping, Debden, Loughton, Buckhurst Hill, Roding Valley, Woodford, South Woodford, Snaresbrook and Leytonstone (none of which are interchange stations!)
J - Northolt and Rayners Lane (the 398 does that anyway, and the more frequent 140 would take you to South Harrow and Harrow on the Hill, which would have the same effect)
K - North Acton and Willesden Junction (266 anyone?)
"B - Theydon Bois and Epping (I bet people in Theydon Bois find this really useful... especially as the only other option is the 500 to Romford)"
This is a shuttle, since service B doesn't serve Theydon Bois station, presumably because the road layout doesn't permit it to. Theydon Bois passengers have to change at Epping to service A or C.
"C - Epping, Debden, Loughton, Buckhurst Hill, Roding Valley, Woodford, South Woodford, Snaresbrook and Leytonstone (none of which are interchange stations!)"
Believe it or not, there are *local* passengers on the Central Line, not going into central London at all. This service is for them, as thetube.com makes clear.
"J - Northolt and Rayners Lane (the 398 does that anyway, and the more frequent 140 would take you to South Harrow and Harrow on the Hill, which would have the same effect)
K - North Acton and Willesden Junction (266 anyone?)"
These are the only two extra services provided at the western end of the Central Line. My guess is that LU figureed that there wouldn't be enough capacity on the regular bus services to take the extra numbers of people.
This is a shuttle, since service B doesn't serve Theydon Bois station, presumably because the road layout doesn't permit it to.
The road layout would quite easily allow either service A or service C to serve Theydon Bois: service B enters and leaves Epping from the South, service A enters and leaves Epping from the North - they could be through-routed. Service C I'd guess runs via the Epping Rd and Golding's Hill to Debden - I don't get why it couldn't run with the 500 on the Theydon Rd and the Abridge Rd before entering Debden on the Chingford High Rd.
These are the only two extra services provided at the western end of the Central Line. My guess is that LU figureed that there wouldn't be enough capacity on the regular bus services to take the extra numbers of people.
Quite frankly, those two stations aren't the ones where I'd've thought the extra capacity would be needed. From "Interchange in London", a study produced by London Transport Planning in July 1997, the only Central Line stations to figure in the list of Outer London's busiest are Ealing Broadway, Shepherd's Bush and White City. The bus routes may have been better placed as Ealing Broadway - Kew Bridge and White City - Kensington Olympia.
But the explanations are all vague: “Our teams are working flat out, 24 hours-a-day modifying and testing the entire Central Line and W&C fleet in order to restore services safely.”
If the Waterloo and City line is to resume on Thursday, did that stock get higher priority? Why did the motor fall off? What exactly is being inspected?
Inquiring minds want to know!
John
The Waterloo and City is a shuttle and has only five trains. I guess they checked checked them/modified them first. Putting just five trains back into service on the Central Line would do little good; restoring the W&C service completely first is a better idea.
I guessed that and am actually surprised that the W&C has as many as five train sets! (The Drain is one of the few bits of the London Underground I’ve never been on).
However, we’re still missing a lot of details about what went wrong and what had to be checked/fixed!
John
However, we’re still missing a lot of details about what went wrong and what had to be checked/fixed!
The updated report from the Railway Inspectorate still implies a problem with the bolts securing the motor.
There was a report in the Guardian some days back that all said bolts were being replaced.
But that still leaves several questions unanswered. What was wrong with the old bolts?. Why will the new ones be better?. Etc.
The waterloo and city line ("The Drain ") has 10 cars of 1992 stock that make 5 4xcar trains,now I'm sure thee could all have been checked by now and some sort of service resumed but i'm betting that along with the 80 0dd 8xcar trains on the central line something else has been found preventing these cars re-entering service.
Two similar events where motors have sheared away and caused derailments have occured in the past,but to stop all the fleet and then not release the checked/modified cars is causing me some concern...what else has been found?
The line that is shut will surely have further problems with points,lineside equipment and such like being not used and air quality will have dropped with the 'piston effect' of trains running having stopped.
Rob
The waterloo and city line ("The Drain ") has 10 cars of 1992 stock that make 5 4xcar trains
Isn't that 20 cars?.
Incidentally the W&C is entirely underground (even the depot) and has no track connections to any other tube line.
Originally there was a lift that carried cars between the W&C's depot and the Waterloo main line rail station above it. I think that was demolished when the EuroStar ('channel tunnel') terminal was built.
Now there is simply a caged in slot in the ground about the length and width of a car, and adjacent to a nearby street. I guess cars, rails, etc. are simpled craned in from trucks used a hired crane.
Do so many people ride the W&C that it is so necessary? It wasn't too crowded when I rode it. BTW, it was the only tube line I rode end to end :-)
That said, how significant are the differences between the W&C stock and the Central stock, if there are any?
Do so many people ride the W&C that it is so necessary? It wasn't too crowded when I rode it.
The W&C is essentially a distributor from the commuter railways that terminate at Waterloo mainline, to the downtown financial district. So it is packed solid during commute hours, and pretty empty otherwise. It doesn't even operate on Sundays or late evenings.
Unlike all the other tube lines, the W&C was actually built by the London & South Western (mainline) Railway, and remained part of the British Rail network until it was handed over to London Underground preparatory to the privatisation of BR. (At a guess, about 10 years ago).
BTW, it was the only tube line I rode end to end :-)
Glad to hear it. Don't think LU would be too impressed with you embarking/disembarking mid-tunnel. :-)
That said, how significant are the differences between the W&C stock and the Central stock, if there are any?
I believe they are identical. Although interchangability presents problems as there are no track connections between the W&C and the rest of the tube network (or any other rail system).
the W&C was actually built by the London & South Western (mainline) Railway
Not quite - it was an independent company for a short while before the South Western snaffled it. (Opened 8th Aug 1898, bought by the LSWR 1st Jan 1907)
until it was handed over to London Underground preparatory to the privatisation of BR. (At a guess, about 10 years ago)
Nine - it was 1994, April Fool's Day to be precise, although the BR service ceased the day before and LU didn't commence operations til the 5th.
I believe they are identical.
The 3rd rail shoe is at standard height on the Drain, but it is at modified (higher) height on the Central. This is because the Central Line's tunnels are tiny.
Although interchangability presents problems as there are no track connections between the W&C and the rest of the tube network
Also, the Drain is managed by the Bakerloo Line, so the bureaucracy is against swappping stock.
Do so many people ride the W&C that it is so necessary?
However many of them there are, they're in general commuters from the South Western and therefore are rich as they live in places like Esher, which has recently seen the first house sale over £5,000,000 ($8,000,000). Compare the LIRR...
Latest News from thetube.com. Whatever they’re doing, it’s taking longer than they thought.
Still vague.
John
I just read about their new RATS... what the hell is wrong with these people?!
Okay, let's look at a few things here. First of all, compare how many systems have problems with eating/drinking both on trains AND platforms. Both: WMATA. Only trains: NYC MTA, MTA Maryland, SEPTA, CTA, MBTA, MARTA, etc, etc...
Second, nothing in the article mentioned what should happen if anyone drinks through a straw. Now how much "dangerous spillage" is THAT gonna cause? Furthermore, the afforementioned lenient systems have no problem with drinking through a straw aboard the train/trolley itself.
Third, with travelers, if Metro has recycling programs, just why do they have on-platform trashcans unless they EXPECT someone to be eating/drinking on the platform. Nobody's that absent-minded that they'd finish their food and carry the trash all the way to the platform before discarding it.
Fourth, travel makes people hungry. That's why Amtrak has a café car (although they're long-distance, but still... I don't eat when traveling by car to DC, but I do on the train...) If Metro's so concerned about their riders, then why prohibit on platform food consumption? I'd not want to ride from Shady Grove to Glenmont while holding my food. What about the Pentagon City bunch? Who really wants to sit in that mall just to eat? (I did, and all the people chattering and looking at me got somewhat uncomfortable after a while... though the fact that I'm from Philly, cruising Pentagon City Mall as if it were my own stomping ground back in the Gallery could have been a point...) I would have rather eaten while waiting for my train.
Fifth, nobody specified whether you can eat in the mezzanine or not. Probably not, but again, why the trashcans?
So, all in all, Metro is the company that needs to learn more from the so-called "inferior" systems. Overdoing it on something like eating on the platform will irritate the customers. And irate customers will go elsewhere with their business. And THEN what will WMATA do?
And I'm not even gonna touch on the issue of smoking on platforms that are OUTSIDE... where there is PLENTY of freh air to absorb and eliminate the fumes... not that I smoke anyways.
May I, as a fellow SEPTA rider, offer some counterpoint?
I used to live in NE Philly, and I'd get off the MFL at Margaret-Orthodox to transfer to a bus. At the bus stop, there would inevitably be enough people lighting up that wherever I stood, the wind would blow smoke right in my face. Even outdoors, smoking in a crowd is very inconsiderate.
I sometimes wish SEPTA didn't allow eating on the platforms, when I look at all the garbage that people throw on the tracks at the trolley stop at 30th street station, and the mice feeding on that garbage. At the very least, I wish the no-eating rule was enforced on the trains. I get tired of my feet sticking to dried, spilled coffee on the floors.
Mark
Second, nothing in the article mentioned what should happen if anyone drinks through a straw.
The Washington Post article mentioned the arrest of "a woman who was sipping from a large, fast-food soft drink cup;" from that, I infer she was drinking through a straw. Zero tolerance at its worst.
I think someone needs to tell WMATA to get a life.
WHAT?! You should visit NYC sometime, people eat/drink on the platforms AS WELL as on the trains. At some stations, the tracks are filled with so much trash I'm surprised there's no track fires b/c of it. I hate stepping on gum, spilled beverages, food wrappers, seeing soda bottles rolling in the trains etc.
I hate stepping on gum, spilled beverages, food wrappers, seeing soda bottles rolling in the trains etc.
A watching the soda bottle roll back and forth as the bus accelerates and slows down is a common passtime for SEPTA riders! I don't have as much trouble with a tightly-capped soda bottle as I do with the coffee cups that riders set down on the floor, then forget to take with them, that are then kicked over and spilled, leaving sticky patches on the floor of the train.
I'm all for food-free transit. I don't think WMATA needs to be arresting people, a ticket would be adequate...it works for speeding motorists after all...and would be a less Orwellian way of enforcing the rules. But I'm for the rules. I've never heard of anyone starving to death because they had to wait thrity minutes to have a bagel.
Mark
>>> I'm all for food-free transit. I don't think WMATA needs to be arresting people, a ticket would be adequate...it works for speeding motorists after all <<<
I doubt that WMATA arrests everyone found eating in the system. Only those who have no ID which would establish a home address would be arrested. That is similar to the fare beating tickets given in L.A. A ticket if the person can show some ID and signs a promise to appear in court, an arrest if not. BTW, L.A. also prohibits eating and drinking on its trains and buses, with a maximum fine of $250.00, the same as for fare beating. Both fare beating and eating and drinking are covered under an umbrella statute which makes it a misdemeanor to fail to follow the posted rules of the LACMTA.
Tom
BTW, L.A. also prohibits eating and drinking on its trains and buses, with a maximum fine of $250.00, the same as for fare beating.
I'm surprised. Whatever one thinks about eating and drinking on trains and buses, it surely seems a much less serious offense than fare beating. Experience with the New York subways has shown that fare-beaters have a disturbingly high propensity to commit serious offenses such as robberies and assaults.* I would very much doubt that the same holds true for eaters and drinkers.
* = it may be true, however, that fare beating is less of an "obvious" offense on a POP system than on one with entry turnstiles.
>>> Whatever one thinks about eating and drinking on trains and buses, it surely seems a much less serious offense than fare beating. <<<
Hey, you have to remember this is the state that will put someone away for life for shoplifting (with two prior felonies under the three strike law).
It is also a felony to assault any LACMTA employee or passenger on a vehicle in operation. I bet the C/Rs on this board would like a similar law in NYC.
Tom
It is also a felony to assault any LACMTA employee or passenger on a vehicle in operation. I bet the C/Rs on this board would like a similar law in NYC.
There is such a law, though it applies only with respect to assaults on MTA personnel, not on pax.
>>> There is such a law, though it applies only with respect to assaults on MTA personnel, not on pax <<<
Then why isn't it enforced? A few well publicized convictions resulting in hard time for spitting on or throwing something at a C/R should reduce the number of times it happens.
Tom
The law Peter Rosa referred to just took effect. Give it time.
David
I *still* can't get over that, the law against "striking or intimidating state employees WHILE IN PERFORMANCE OF THEIR OFFICIAL DUTIES" has been on the books since 1925! Are there any documents on why this never applied to TA employees? Frankly, I'm amazed in all sincerity ...
I don't believe spitting is considered assault.
>>> I don't believe spitting is considered assault. <<<
When directed at someone it certainly is.
Tom
Physical injury is required for a charge of assault, and intent to commit physical injury for attempted assault. Spitting probably qualifies as the crime of "harassment". Still something you can arrest someone for, but not the more serious crime of assault.
Reference: http://www.correctionhistory.org/northcountry/html/knowlaw/mandatoryarrestcharges3.htm
>>> Reference: http://www.correctionhistory.org/northcountry/html/knowlaw/mandatoryarrestcharges3.htm <<<
This is a bit misleading since it is guidance for domestic disturbances, rather than crimes in a public place. It shows officers ways to get around the general prohibition against arresting anyone for a misdemeanor committed outside the presence of a police officer. Generally in the case of misdemeanor, the officer relies on a witness making a citizen's arrest, and the officer transports the person to jail. With domestic violence, frequently the victim would not make the citizen's arrest, and therefore no arrest would be made.
Tom
But the underlying definitions implied in the article apply in all cases.
>>> Physical injury is required for a charge of assault, and intent to commit physical injury for attempted assault. <<<
You are correct. A common law Battery is an Assault under NY law (New York Consolidated Laws Sec. 120.00 et sec.) What is called Assault in the common law (and California) is called Attempted Assault under New York law (NYCL Sec. 110.00 et sec.) New York penal law is much more codified than ours here in the wild west. NY law has various degrees of each type of assault offense, each with its own definition (which certainly facilitates plea bargaining).
Although I saw separate degrees of assault for an assault on a police officer, firefighter, or EMT, I saw nothing in the Penal Code regarding assaults on transportation workers being different than an assault on anyone else.
Tom
you can get arrested for the wrong thought here.......yep!!
amost any where any tine - no freedom - liberty at all..........
california is a police state ........!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"It is also a felony to assault any LACMTA employee or passenger on a vehicle in operation. I bet the C/Rs on this board would like a similar law in NYC."
If I recall correctly, assault and battery are usually classified as felonies in general. (What would be the definition of misdemeanor assault?)
>>> What would be the definition of misdemeanor assault? <<<
Simple unarmed assault which results in no injury, such as cocking a fist as if about to throw a punch, throwing a punch that misses, a light open handed slap on the face, poking at someone with a finger, throwing a benign liquid at someone, or spitting at someone (except at their eyes).
Tom
These are not called assault in New York. They are called harassment (still a crime).
CORRECTION:
In my previous post I defined civil assault rather than criminal assault without doing any research. Here is the definition of criminal assault in California:
"PC 240. An assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another."
Battery is defined as follows:
"PC 242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another."
A felony is defined as follows:
"PC 17. (a) A felony is a crime which is punishable with death or by imprisonment in the state prison. Every other crime or public offense is a misdemeanor except those offenses that are classified as infractions.
"(b) When a crime is punishable, in the discretion of the court, by imprisonment in the state prison or by fine or imprisonment in the county jail, it is a misdemeanor for all purposes under the following circumstances:
"(1) After a judgment imposing a punishment other than imprisonment in the state prison.
....."
There is a long list of persons, including police, firefighters, EMTs, emergency room personnel, lifeguards, animal control officers, and operators and riders of public transportation (including taxicabs), who are specially protected, and assaults or batteries on them increase the penalties. For simple assault as defined above, the penalty is always a misdemeanor, but other similar charges such as Assault with a Deadly Weapon, or Attempted Murder are felonies. Battery is a wobbler which could be charged as either a felony or misdemeanor for the protected class.
Sorry if I misled anyone.
Tom
Thanks for the info.
If an able-bodied person threatens to assault you, that is an obvious credible threat because he/she has the ability to hurt you with a fist or a leg or a head-butt, etc.
If a quadraplegic threatened to hurt you, and you complained about it, would the DA throw it out unless you could prove the assailant had the opportunity and means to say, run you over with a wheelchair?
In Pennsylvania, you can be charged with making terroristic threats, which, if I understand correctly, is applicable to any situation where a perpetrator says, "I am going to hurt you," whether or not it is clear he/she can do so.
If anyone knows differently, please so post.
"A watching the soda bottle roll back and forth as the bus accelerates and slows down is a common passtime for SEPTA riders! "
Same here for LI Bus riders! And when it falls in the rear doorwell....SCORE! :-0
Im always kicking trash out of the rear doorwell, I mean someone could trip and fall on those bottles.
>>>Im always kicking trash out of the rear doorwell, I mean someone could trip and fall on those bottles.<<<
Someone could just as easily trip and fall on a bottle you kicked out a rear doorwell. If your so concerned stand the bottle up in corner somewhere.
Peace.
ANDEE
I take my bottles with me and throw them away.
I do to but he's talking about trash left by others.
Peace,
ANDEE
Couldn't someone trip and fall on a soda bottle out on the sidewalk, especially in the snow?
I was on the EL in Philly and an older women lost control of her hot coffee when she got off at 56th St. The thing dumped all over the floor and ran between the rubber floor grooves as the train started and stopped. We were on the first car and when it happened, the operator popped the cab door open and shook his head in dismay!
Chuck Greene
I remember when there were soda pop vending machines on the platforms, and gum vending machines attached to every 4th pillar. Why do you suppose they used to call the transit cops 'gumshoes'? (sic)
Maybe a return to garbage all over the place is not the right way to go, but there is no reason why retail space on the mezinines cannot be rented out to newsstands, and fast food joints. Their areas need to be defined with signs indicating that food should not be taken out of the eating area. And... They will have RESTROOMS that they will take care of as part of their lease.
Elias
Suprisingly, I almost NEVER see anyone eating or drinking on MARTA. Eating and drinking are prohibited, but the signs saying so aren't very prominent. Cops definately don't go around looking for eaters. I guess MARTA riders can curb their appitites better than other subway riders. :-)
1 on smoking. NO NOT ANYWHERE, the stench carries down the platform outside.
2. WMATA and BART are extra uptight over food because they were so dumb as to carpet the cars.
WMATA and BART are extra uptight over food because they were so dumb as to carpet the cars.
That's almost as dumb as putting cloth seats in the cars...made with, get this, dry-clean-only fabric...like SEPTA did with the new M4 cars on the Market-Frankford line. Cleaning them costs $180 per seat! Even after one roudn of cleaning the seats are back to a terribly grungy state. I heard of a plan to replace them with plastic seats, but I don't know it it's for real or when it might happen. The sooner the better, if you ask me.
Mark
Believe it or not, the refurbished cars on the Baltimore Metro Subway have blue cloth seats. No carpet, though. However, our one-line subway is very lightly used outside of rush hour.
My last ride on the EL confirmed what you just posted. The cloth seats are really looking lousy. Plastic may be the answer, although
not as soft as cloth seats , of course. For even a full ride from Bridge-Pratt to 69th St, the plastic wouldn't be that bad.
Chuck Greene
Do people still treat the SEPTA City Hall Orange Line station like an ad for the Tobacco companies? When I went to school there people would smoke the whole length of the platform and nobody ever cared. It was horrible. People smoked all over SEPTA. I think food is a problem when it comes to mass transit. The problem is that they only enforce it once every 2000 days. Riding some of the NJ Transit buses with liquid all over the floor and the overpowering smells of food.It makes the quality of the ride that much worse. The problem is who would enforce the rules. I know the bus drivers aren't going to risk themselves to tell one of the wonderful young people that ride there bus to stop.
Do people still treat the SEPTA City Hall Orange Line station like an ad for the Tobacco companies? When I went to school there people would smoke the whole length of the platform and nobody ever cared. It was horrible. People smoked all over SEPTA.
Yes, I have seen people smoking on the platforms at City Hall station, despite the fact that it's a violation of city ordinances. I don't think it's as widespread as it's been in the past, but SEPTA Police are not known for strict enforcement of laws as they are at WMATA.
On an interesting side note, even though there are No Smoking signs posted all over the 69th Street Terminal (the western end of the Market-Frankford El), I've seen people smoke inside the terminal building. The problem is that police can't enforce the no smoking rules at all within 69th Street Terminal.
Even though it's supposed to be a criminal offense in Philadelphia to smoke inside an enclosed (subway) station area - at least when the police are enforcing the laws - there's no similar no-smoking law on the books in Upper Darby Township, where 69th Street Terminal is located.
And for the record, I am a smoker...
I happen to like riding on board the clean WMATA trains and buses. Too bad I can't say the same about SEPTA. While I don't expect regional rail riders to go without food or drink, the bus and MFL/BSS riders can.
>>While I don't expect
regional rail riders to go without food or drink, the bus and
MFL/BSS riders can. <<
Please explain how the short ride from say Chelten Ave on the Chestnut Hill line (east) to Center City is more food deserving, than the rub from 69th to City Hall. The spilled coffee will be the same, and so will the crumbs.
That particular ride doesn't make its passengers more deserving of food. The hour-plus ride from Center City to Thorndale on the R5 might, though.
What we have here is a result of SEPTA's use of commuter trains to fill roles that would normally be filled by rapid transit. So you have short rides that don't even leave the city limits on commuter trains, and as a consequence, riders to Chestnut Hill get to play by commuter train rules while riders to West Philly have to play by rapid transit rules. It's not fair, but I think the bigger problem is the inadequacy of Philadelphia's subway system, that requires such heavy use of commuter trains for intracity travel.
Mark
while I certainly think more rapid transit mileage would be useful, I should comment that to me mainline RR commuter/suburban services are every bit as valid for intra city usage. My 'yardstick' for this is the Metra Electric in Chicago. When I was first riding this route as a kid in the 50's it was a frequent (every 20 mins between AM and PM rush) alternative to the combination of bus and L to the Loop. When I briefly lived in Philly in 65-6 I commuted on the Reading from Wister to Reading Ter,. Alternatively,I occasionally used the Ridge Spur to Erie and the 23 trolley. My point is they were all just urban transit, the Reading slightly faster, less frequent--but published schedules--the others more random, slower, cheaper.. Now that the paychecks all come from the same office, the distinction should be less rather more. The history of most suburban RR services is that they were built with many more local stations than presently served thus the differential with purpose built 'rapid transit' was even murkier particularly when the equipment used was similart.
Sorry, I'm all for banning food and drink consumption on trains, platforms, and buses. MTA is very lax, and the result is dirtier trains and stations full of litter.
I dunno how many times I have to look at a McDonald's bag with spilled soda and ketchup all over the train floor....its so gross!
Here's the deal. I don't have anything against people who eat or drink on the subway. I often drink a Diet Pepsi Big Slam on the train. I don't spill a drop. That's the point. Food and drink are fine. It's the savage two legged animals that purposely spill their stuff on the train that's the problem. If someone accidentally spills their coffee, I can understand that. But to just leave wrappers on the train, that's nuts. As far as rats go, they live underground. I think if you cleaned the subway tunnels with acid, there would still be rats. They don't bother me, I don't bother them. :)
I now live in the DC area and I think WMATA's no food/drink policy is a good one. Just look how clean the MetroRail cars and stations are. Also - I've been hungry on the train many times, but I really don't think any ride on MetroRail is so long that a passenger must eat on the train or in a station.
Wayne
Also - I've been hungry on the train many times, but I really don't think any ride on MetroRail is so long that a passenger must eat on the train or in a station.
I don't think its always about the ride being long or short - its about multitasking. I drive to the LIC ferry parking lot - during that drive I go thru the McDonald's drive thru and pick up a breakfast sandwich and coffee, which I consume WHILE driving. If I don't finish the coffee I take it with me on the ferry. When I arrive at the office I am ready to get right to work instead of eating at my desk.
Please don't ask me to wake up earlier and eat breakfast at home - I barely get enough sleep as it is...
Heck - sometimes lunch is the hot dog I grab while going from one meeting location to another... I eat while I walk and if i have to take the subway to the other location - that's where i finish the dog ;-)
My point is that in today's rushed society people need to multitask - so it isnt always a matter of waiting till later.
>>> My point is that in today's rushed society people need to multitask - so it isnt always a matter of waiting till later <<<
Wath out for the third rail while you are "multitasking" after drinking your coffee. :-)
Tom
"Watch out for the third rail while you are "multitasking" after drinking your coffee. :-) "
ROTFLMAO :-)
Richard White, WMATA's chief executive officer, will be on "Sprawl and Crawl", a call-in program on WTOP Radio
(Washington) concerning transportation and urban growth in the Washington, DC area. The show airs at 10 AM ET on
Wednesday, February 12. You may e-mail your questions in advance on the WTOP website, www.wtopnews.com, or you
may call in during the show. Listen to the show on 1500 AM, 820 AM, 107.7 FM, or on www.wtopnews.com, powered by
ConnectLive Webcast Services.
Ok most of you obviously aren't familiar with WMATA
WMATA strives to operate a 'world-class subway system' -- not '3rd-world class'. WMATA wasn't being uptight when they banned food on board, they were being smart. This issue reminds me of an article in USAToday, http://www.usatoday.com/travel/vacations/destinations/2003/2003-01-17-air-food.htm -- how would you like to step into a 'steaming hot' (winter = heat on board) subway car that reeked of McDonalds 'secret sauce' and ketchup? Just as you wouldn't want to walk around smelling like that poison yourself, WMATA doesn't want people to have to face that smell.
In addition, litter is a big problem on WMATA already, even though food isn't allowed people bring it on board anyway, spill it on board anyway, leave their trash on board anyway, and all that costs $$ to clean up, $$ that no transit agency has or ever had in the past (remember, we're not dealing with for-profit here).
If WMATA allowed food anywhere in the system, the privilege would be abused so quick that taking a quick ride would be like trudging through a dumpster. I, personally, like things the way they are. If you don't, drive, and if you don't even use WMATA you shouldn't have any complaints.
Concessions such as newspaper stands, along with cigarette, soda, candy and gum vending machines were put into the New York City subway system over the years, first by the IRT and BMT and later by the city, as ways of generating extra revenue. Anyone over the age of 40 who rode the subways as a kid can remember the one cent Chicklets gum machines and the five cent mini-Hershey's candy bar machines that were strapped to the columns near the main entrances to most of the main subway stations, along with the 10 cent soda cup (or seltzer cup, uusually in my case) machines and cigarette despensers near the back walls.
The problem was, all those cups, candy wrappers, gum boxes and cigarette packs not only generated a ton of junk, they also helped develop a mindset in New York subway riders that if there wasn't a trash can within five feet, the back of the platform or the tracks were a perfectly fine place to toss the stuff. Then in 1971, during one of his rare trips underground, MTA boss William Ronan saw all the junk from the vending machines scattered around and demanded that it all be painted silver and blue ... er, wait, that was everything else underground. Ronan actually demanded that all the machines be removed from the system, which they were by the end of 1972. Unfortunately, that was also the same time the MTA was losing control of it's graffiti problem, so whatever "beautification" was gained from the vending machine ban was lost in the ensuing wave of graffiti.
Anyway, by 1971 when Ronan's edict came down, WMATA was well on its way to constructing the original sections of the Red Line and the Blue/Orange lines through downtown Washington. The WMATA people looked at the situation in New York and decided Ronan had the right idea, and decided to ban any type of food or beverage vending/sales from its property from the outset, allowing only news vending racks to be put in at station entrances (the exception being entrances like at L'Enfant Plaza or Crystal City that lead directly up into food courts or newsstand areas, but outside the fare control zone). Doing that also allowed them to put carpeting in the Metro trains, which along with the padded seats were designed to give the system a less austere look than the New York City subway, in hopes that it would attract more suburban commuters to the lines.
WMATA has always taken a strong stand against food in the system, and got some back publicity three years ago from arresting a 16-year-old for eating French fries on a Red Line platform. As for the smoking ban, that's more of a sign of the times, since the ban goes in line with limitations on smoking in other private and government buildings, stores and restaurants.
>>> As for the smoking ban, that's more of a sign of the times, since the ban goes in line with limitations on smoking in other private and government buildings, stores and restaurants. <<<
In New York, smoking was prohibited (along with spitting and loitering) in subways and els as long as I can remember (the '40s), even when candy, chewing gum and soda were sold right on the platforms.
Tom
I'm pretty sure I remember cigarette vending machines in certain Manhattan subway stations in the 60s, but I may be wrong -- at that time my focus was mainly on the gum, candy and soda vending machines anyway (and the strategically placed pretzel vendors in the subway system).
>>> I'm pretty sure I remember cigarette vending machines in certain Manhattan subway stations in the 60s, <<<
The machines may have been in stations, and cigarettes may have been sold at newsstands, but smoking was officially prohibited. My guess is that was a safety measure to prevent trash fires underground and prevent lit cigarette butts from raining down from el stations (many of which had wooden platforms).
Tom
Sounds like a logical explanation (and I'm not sure if any of the old Manhattan el stations or other wooden el platforms in the other boroughs ever had areas with cigarette machines).
The cigarette vending machines were there - but I have a BMT sign from the 1920's that says Smoking, Spitting prohibited by the Transit Commission, which was the regulatory agency at that time.
What would happen to me if I wheeled a fully loaded Dim Sum cart onto a Washington subway train?
Seriously, is there no reasonable middle ground? Usually, on the TTC, it isn't that bad. Friday night was an exception. A friend and I were on a train at Finch and it looked like a couple of people had a full takeout meal and left all the evidence, but this doesn't happen often. Also, for the most part, SEPTA wasn't that bad either. Again, there was one exception, and that was a Norristown car that loaded up at 69th with a lot of people eating takeout from McDonalds. Frankly, I don't mind anybody being arrested on the grounds of eating the stuff from McDonalds (and very much encourage it) because, technically, they aren't eating food.
-Robert King
Good one! :-0
I'm thinking about taking a trip to the Branford Museum when it gets warmer out (assuming my wife agrees to go, of course). I've never been there and I have a few q's. I hope someone can help.
(1) I live in Cedarhurst, which is near Kennedy Airport on the south shore of Nassau County. How long should I expect the drive to be, assuming I leave at 10:00 a.m. on a non-holiday weekend Sunday morning?
(2) I'm not a huge trolley fan. Are there enough el car/subway car exhibits there to make the trip worth it?
(3) I read on the site that there is a 3-mile trolley excursion. I thought that might be fun for my son (age 13 months). Has anyone taken that excursion and is it fun?
Thanks.
(1) I live in Cedarhurst, which is near Kennedy Airport on the south shore of Nassau County. How long should I expect the drive to be, assuming I leave at 10:00 a.m. on a non-holiday weekend Sunday morning?
Well, you should know how long it takes you to drive across the Throggs Neck Bridge. So Add about an hour to that.
(2) I'm not a huge trolley fan. Are there enough el car/subway car exhibits there to make the trip worth it?
The Trollies *are* nice! There is an Arnine, a Low-V and a Red Bird in operating condition, also a BMT Standard and some path cars hidden away, as well as some older el equipment. The Standard is not a part of the exhibits, but if you join as a member, then you will be able to go aboard it, look around and take some pictures. The "Autum In New York" weekend is no more, it is replaced by several "Transit Weekends" and these are May 17,18; June 21,21; July 19,20; Aug 16,17; and Sep 20,21. If you become a member on one of those days, you can (after closing hours) operate the subway car of your choice. Last Summer I ran the Arnine!
(3) I read on the site that there is a 3-mile trolley excursion. I thought that might be fun for my son (age 13 months). Has anyone taken that excursion and is it fun?
Unlike other railroad meuseums, your ticket lets you ride the trolley (or subway cars when running) back and forth all day long, and so it really can be much more than three miles. For a 13 year old, it would be "way cool" (whatever *that* means), I think a 13 month old will be less appreciative, but I will tell you that at around the age of three or four, my father took me on the Third Avenue El in MANHATTAN!, and so yes, it is worth it, even if is just to be able to say on SubTalk 50 years later, "yeah... I did That!" There are some picnic stops out on the route which they do not use for the public too much anymore, but as a member there is no reason why they would not drop you off there, for a picnic, or for picture taking, and then pick you up again on another run.
Their Website is here, for the schedule page, and you can click around for more information.
Elias
The drive up would be about an hour and a half. If you come up on March 30, the only cars running will be subway, you'll get to hang with your fellow SubTalkers, and you can even play motorman on that three mile trip. Kids do love the trolley ride (we even rent out for birthday parties), though the full-day SubTalk charter might be a bit much for him.
Let me correct my colleage about March 30. There will be a
Streetcar in service to take you to the subway car[s]. Rapid
Transit cars do not depart from Sprague Station. All boarding
is at Avenue 'L' Platform in the main yard area at Farm River Road.
;-) Sparky
He said three mile trip; shuttle service doesn't count ;^)
And you can not do a three mile trip on Rapid Transit either^^^
it's a combination of both. Besides if the weather is tolerable
on March 30, we are going to have a BMTman [SubTalk]\BRTman [other
side of the tracks] operating a 1906 BRT Laconia built convertible.
No B-Division motorperson operating A-Division cars. >GG<
;-) Sparky
???????? This is news to me....
Hey! I'm B division too. If there's a prohibition on B division types running LoV's and HiV's, then the LEAST you can do is roll out that BQT 1001 PCC and let Dougie and I play "ramming speed" with THAT. :)
...the LEAST you can do is roll out that BQT 1001 PCC...
Can't do that right now; the air conditioning is stuck on high :)
Oh PSHAW ... by the time March rolls around, a refreshing breeze of winter will be ... well ... nostalgic. :)
Well, if us B division types aren't welcome in the cab of the A division gear, sounds like a good old fashioned late 60's train hijacking is in order. Heh. As Caz said, "who'd steal a subway train?" (Selkirk raises hand and waves it furiously in the air)
Uh, early 70s is more like it. Moo. You bringing a tommy gun?:)
As Caz said, "Who's gonna steal a subway train?"
Nah, no need for implements of ka-boom ... all I need to do is bring my trusty bag'o'trix, have wrenches, will move. :)
One of the things I learned in state service, where desks, chairs, and wastebaskets aren't always issued, you learn to go "shopping" ... and you also learn the other rule of civil service, "if it doesn't leave the property, then it AIN'T stolen." (grin)
Knowing you, if you go to Shoreline on March 30, you'll sneak off to 1689's barn, climb aboard, raise its pole, and fire it up even though it'll be resting for the day. Then the temptation will be too great and the next thing they know, they'll hear a big "MOO!!" as 1689 crawls out of the barn.:)
Nah, as much as I'd like to take her for a few laps around the track, I'm sure that can be arranged at a less hectic time after I've done some work to EARN the time on her. I'm actually QUITE interested in being with Lou watching the wake-up for the LoV and HiV and since I *don't* know the equipment, I'll stand back out of the way with my hands in my pockets and just WATCH. But I'd love to see the glass door ritual on the offside of the cab. I've heard MANY stories from motorpeople who ran them, would LOVE to see it for myself. :)
Of course, after Lou's ballbusting, I'm afraid to ask, so I've just planted a bathtub sideways in the lawn, painted it blue, am planting flowers around it and am planning a month-long novena to Saint Sparky to slap some sense into Unca Lou, grab a bucket and just let Unca Selkirk drool in peace. Heh.
A month-long novena? You could have three novenas in one month.:) Of course, there's always a rosary.
On payday I still tell my crews "The money has arrived! The money has arrived!"
And of course, you're BS'ing them. :)
Hey, if the truck is wrecked, how can they expect us to be on time? ;-)
Heh. At least the TA has MOTORCYCLES! :)
They don't know anything. How can they know anything down there - holy mackerel, that's it!
Pelham 1-2-3, the money has arrived. Repeat, the money has arrived.
"Come and get it!" works just as well. Feeding time at the zoo ensues.
Oh PSHAW ... by the time March rolls around, a refreshing breeze of winter will be ... well ... nostalgic. :)
For that matter, am I the only one who sees a problem using 4573 in March?
We used 4573 last March for the operator's class and it WAS cold!!! However since its one of the only regularly operating cars that go into parallel it had to be used for instruction.
Gents,
How about when I took BERA Streetcar Operations 1.01 in 1985.
The course started in February and we were instructed on back poling
on 1414. Now were whimping about March 30 & 4573, which was one
of the cars used for instruction in 1985. Besides one question on
the Qualifying Road Test has to do with parallel operation and carries
a value of 3 points. Learning on 4573 is part of the experience of
Basic Streetcar Operation. >GG<
;-) Sparky
PS-Sarge last year's training weather was mild. I didn't have to dawn
my ski pants on any Class day in March 2002.
Which I got a minus three points since in my class I had never ever operated 4573 but got that car on the road test with the inspector from hell (who is a great guy, very saftey aware. I LEARNED on my road test not just the parallel from him and still passed).
Ahh, you had the same inspector I did then, I presume... and yes, I learned on my road test too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CK,
No it wasn't the same inspector. Lou's inspector was your rules
book instructor and on the disabled list for doing road tests in 2002.
Consider yourself lucky, you didn't get qualified by the
^Inspector from Hell^ ~ 2002 Edition. I did not qualify you!
Consider yourself lucky, you may not have passed. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Are we talking switching/series/parallel or some obscure code???
Some SMARTY I know did a Redbird powertest and jumped the pair at least six feet. 'Yah mon, I know how to do this.' I was BeegBugMann.
CI peter
Peter,
On our Streetcars, which are not blocked in full series operation,
there is no "Switching" except in Third Avenue Cars. The sequence
asked on the question on the Road Test is to take the car from
Full Parallel to Full Series. It's different on Streetcars vs Rapid
Transit. It's not a trick question either, it has to be executed
properly. The students [3], I road tested in 2002 all demonstrated
the proper procedure in simulation at Sprague, since I was testing
them on JTC #357 not BRT #4573
Two of the students I qualified in 2002 are posters on this board. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Training isn't so bad, since the operator is behind a windscreen, but we didn't have passengers :)
Mike,
Two of the most popular cars at other museums used in December with
passengers are: Montreal Tramways #4 at Warehouse Point, it's topless
& Rio #1875 at Rockhill Trolley Museum. Well, the Rio opens do have
windscreens. One of the memorable things we did do one Saturday evening in December, late eighties, was take a night trip to Short Beach aboard 4573 with St. Nick on the handles. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I know about #4 at The Point (see my reply to Selkirk); the snack bar should sell chicken soup during winter ops :)
Geez, after a winter upstate, wrapping a chassis with no carbody at all into third notch would be like a summer breeze at BERA's latitude. Gird it up! :)
Hey now, we're not talking about Warehourse Point!
Heh. Maybe we should do the event on W3 then. :)
W3 is a SMEE!!!
Dang! Now I gotta pay Stef to sprinkle holy water? Hmmm. Well, we'll go for it anyway, I'll find a way to dumb it down to triple valve. :)
I have blessed W3. Wait.... Where are the H2 Coupler Heads on the Crane?
-Stef
That's why it's a SME and not a SMEE! (No "E" for Emergency).
Oh........ What do I know? I'm just a subway buff.
-Stef
We left off the last E for savings. Damned IRT guys. :)
:)
Sooo technical, all I know is I go WEEEEEEE on a SMEEEEEEE be it 6688 or W3!!
Yeah, well ... just wait until I can manage some shop time. As long as there's room in the squirrel cage, I'll hotwire the motors and we'll have SMOO's. :)
Uh....it IS a SMEE, but with only one "E" (SME)...:)
No maybe we should call them "SMO", for the operator who tries to move
them, without checking the gauge or if the compressor switch is on,
then announces same on the "REDADIO", during public operations. >GG<
;-) Sparky
John, you have a hidden talent! :) ROTFLMAO!!
We COULD put benches on the deck & instead of stopping at the High Platform, we'll put a chair on the boom < grin >
You *KNOW* I'm kinky when it comes to traction motors. I suggest hanging a sling from the crane arm and threaten to whack any ne'er-do-wells upside a pole. :)
Can that crane arm do a 360? If so, Branford's just become an Abusement Park! We'll all be RICH!
Well, it c-a-n do 360, but in practice we avoid it unless we have to.
She's functional in every respect, but we take it easy on the old girl, after all she's a museum artifact that the Curator allows to borrow ;-) Plus on most of the line you're going to find a line before you finish the 360 :-( I found one when I was told to bring out the plow wing ... just kissed it though.
It's kind of neet to use this stuff from the begining of the 20th Century in the same way it was used just after came out of the factory.
Absolutely ... and do realize I'm merely goofing for the folks here. Just because I have these strange fantasies of trolley cars mounted on a huge ferris wheel doesn't mean I gots to have it. You do go a bit stir crazy when you're snowed in for the winter upstate. :)
Yes, I know my friend. Looking forward to seeing you at the end of March.
I'm hoping too ... and even more so, hoping for some EXTRA time this year so I can actually do something useful down yonder and earn some handle time without the crowds. :)
Y'all got me frightened ... I can actually see myself getting to LIKE trolley cars, even if the cab is on the wrong side. Heh.
Our MOW Supt. will be doing track work all week-end, so if you would like to try you hand I'm sure he would appreciate the help.
No experience necessary to be a Gandy Dancer, mim. requirement one Membership card < g >
I'm guessing that not much trackwork's getting done this weekend. Hopefully you'll see me there at some point when we can manage to get out of here - we were almost starting to see some signs of there being ground down there, but that's all been blown to hell again with about 12 inches of new schmutz on the ground ...
Sorry, I ment March 30th week-end.
Unca Bill's gonna be blocking the railroad with W3 again for the NEXT get-together? Oh don't tempt me, I'll bring some welding supplies and put a big plow on the front of the LoV to "urge" W3 onto a siding out there. :)
His problem is that this is the last "week-end" before Ops will be putting trolleys down the line every half hour.
And you thought GOs only happened at the TA < grin >
Tell ya what ... I'll bring a jug of corn squeezins, and point him to the New Haven Mainline, OK? :)
I *love* Bill, only got to kibbitz with him at the end of the day, but he's really an alright guy. I can relate. But DAMN, I'm gonna have to bring Unca Sparky a cattle prod. The offer to push W3 onto a siding still holds, even if it's a dirt siding. Heh.
Well, Kevin if you look at the map of the railway, there is a dirt
siding east of Riverside curve called CONNCO. Besides, he thinks
he has the railway without trolleys every thirty minutes on the
29th & 30th of March. I don't think so. Saturday, the 29th is
qualifying road tests for Operators from the Class of 2003 and
Sunday, the 30th without sceduled streetcar service east of Edgewood,
he'll have something IRT up his six.
;-) Sparky
... he'll have something IRT up his six.
You mean we can't use something bigger?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll bring some shine. If you can get me the key to the switch casing, and the handles for 1689, lemme roll down thataway ahead of time and onto the siding, we'll turn 1689 into a bar car and park W3 in front of it (mama didn't raise no fool) ... I'd be honored to clear the railroad for ya as long as I can take 1689 down yonder and cause a diversion for the MOW department. I may need a radio though in case I need to call for refills, and of course I'll park the pole once I've cleared the railroad. :)
I'll need a relief operator and a stretcher though at the end of the day, just in case neither of us can SEE anymore. Heh.
I figured you'd want to run 1689 one way or another.:) I don't blame you, though. You'll have to give it a pat on the side for me and work its doors once, too.
I have this feeling that there will be armed guards around that end of the barn. :)
I ran some LoV's long long ago for a few stops here and there under the watchful eye of motormen on the Third Avenue el - they're VERY much like running an Arnine, right down to the triple valve AMUE-style and the electric valve (I don't remember seeing a butt plug though) but I've NEVER woken one up - they were already in service the few times I got to play with them. NEVER ran a HiV and am pretty sure I've NEVER been in one either. I can handle an IRT event, grew up in the Bronx, I just PREFERRED B division gear for riding and running. But I'm easy, at least in THIS shirt ...
I figured you'd want to run 1689 one way or another.:) I don't blame you, though. You'll have to give it a pat on the side for me and work its doors once, too.
Wait a minute. I thought you said you already had a set of stuff for 1689: air handle, brake plug, etc.
No butt plug, got pretty much everything else. I can always stop by Newkirk's house and rip off his. :)
You're beginning to sound like Heypaul.:)
I have to admit, he's had an influence on me. Then again, I did come like this right out of the box. :)
An open car will put hair on your chest, boy. So what if it then freezes and falls off? :)
^^^"Hey! I'm B division too. If there's a prohibition on B division types running LoV's and HiV's, then the LEAST you can do is roll out that BQT 1001 PCC"^^^
Kevin, the restriction is only to BMT Motorman of Frankie Scout Fame,
demote them to BRT Surface Operator.
Good news about the "premier" PCC, she's in the shop, but she been
"stripped" naked. She getting some TLC.
I'll forward you a couple of downloads showing the progress on her.
;-) Sparky
Be looking FORWARD to that! She was looking a bit long in the tooth in terms of interior paintjob, I can only assume the outside is also peeling, since both tend to get attention at around the same time. Glad to hear I haven't blown my own IND wad, THANKS! Unca Lou was getting me a bit twichy ... I really *DID* try to be on my best behavior whilst in toyland, but I gotta admit, I got REALLY dewey-eyed seeing one of my corral of sweethearts making love to me just like I loved her back. You can appreciate why I have tight pants around 1689. :)
PROMISE I'll get better. Heh. And as for 1001, that's one SWEET PCC even if my *genuine* PCC experience was on the Newark City before they went Nip ... I grew up in the Bronx, TARS was about as close as it got for me, they didn't RUN no steenking Peeceecees. Ha!
Here's a coupla pictures of 1001, inside and out. (I made the page just for this post and will delete it in about a week so if you want to save them save it to your own 'puter)
Oops!! Forgot the link. Here it is!!!
Would I correct in assuming the child standing next to the 68 trolley is your son?
Yep!!!
Ok I was just wondering.
Here's a coupla pictures of 1001, inside and out. (I made the page just for this post and will delete it in about a week so if you want to save them save it to your own 'puter)
NICE pics! And I see our patron saint is parked at the farebox. :)
THANKS!
Captain Kirk,
I'm blushing!!!
;-) Sparky
Heh ... nice to see you in the captain's chair rather than on the ground. :)
I wonder which car would accelerate faster - 1001 or 6688.:)
Knowing the sheer POWER of PCC's (add that rumors indicate 6688 has been either spayed or neutered) and it's a given to my mind at least that the PCC would leave ANY RT equipment on a siding. :)
Anyone who ever rode the Newark City Subway can tell you those things were DAMNED peppy.
Last Member's Day, in April, we had both 1001 & 27 out at the same time for photo ops. Both cars were popular for the ride down the line too AND they are fun to operate IF your number comes up, i.e. lots of members sign up to sit in the seat.
And don't forget #27 can be operated from the rear seat which is kinda cool.
Well, I kind of enjoyed Doris as my flagperson in the back seat while I was backing up #1001 from the other end < g >
The BMTman took a great shot of her with a BIG smile on her face.
Thurston,
Praise the Lord and tell the whole story, who might the pilot on 1001
have been??? I do not think we let you solo on that car, >GG<
;-) Sparky
Don't look at me, some one else hogged all the pilot time on 1001.
Would that have been your mentor on 1001? And I don't think he's
referencing Member's Day 2002. The Brooklyn PCC did only 1 trip
and that was given to Arthur Lonto, one of the gentleman, who was
responsible for the acquisition of 1001. Oh yes, turn back the
clock, on October 27, 1956 the first person to operate a PCC in the
State of Connecticut.
;-) Sparky
Heh. I noticed from the pictures that the seat there has an imprint that looks a lot like Sparky's ... ummm ... so what exactly IS the amount of gratuity required to get Unca Sparky to "scooch over?" :)
If you will note by the photo, this was an public operating day &
I was out-of-uniform. Sufficient help available, so I played
switch tender at Narraganssett & Edgewood that day. Let the
Subwaynauts play with their toys. I was tending switches, when 1001
approached outbound and stoped. I was summoned aboard by the TSS and
placed in the operator's seat. So it was not my hogging the seat.
Also, if we go back to Autumn in New York, 2000, I can remember
piloting a certain young operator in the reverse direction with a
Standing Load and "Rapid-T-Rabbit" on the trip. Me thinks after
that trip, he may have soiled his undies.
We will wait for his reply, as he is now a TA S/A and a frequent poster on this board.
;-) Sparky
Heh. I suspect you've done enough Hail Mary's to overcome your sin of being out of uniform. Last time I was up there, you were so busy playing musical electrical loads, you never had any time to come up and play. Man, that's dedication to the task. I was sorta hoping as the crowd had thinned out after the cake event that we'd do one last run so's you coulda had some handle time on that GG we signed up for ya. :)
But no, trooper that you are, you had to make sure all the toys were put away. C'mon, buddy ... lighten up. You're entitled to some yayas too ya know.
Kevin,
To be quite honest, I've only operated the arnine once and I blew it.
Might be one of my favored cars because of living on the GG most of
my life and that it was built in the year of my birth.
Train Air just ain't my thing. I'm a Surface Car Guy VS Rapid Transit.
Give me an Armstrong or a PCC or something in between and :-) :-) >GG<
~Sparky
AMUE was a bit tricky, with the pull, puff, *LAP*, release. I'll grant ya that. That's one of the reasons why, when given a choice, I'd gladly leap ahead or fall back an interval to get one. And most of the folks I worked with were only too happy to take out a shiny 32 or 42 instead of one of my favorite clunkers.
But I *know* you'd get it if you tried it again, and Unca Lou did wonders with a number of folks who didn't know air from water. :)
Want me to come up and hold yer ... ummm ... hand? Heh.
I did fine on my second turn on 1689, braking wise. Maybe they'll have a chance to check the brake stands closer and see why you almost had to pull the brake valve to emergency before anything happened.
I'm sure a little duct tape will cure it. :)
Yes, what was the young operator's name? I can't seem to recall. He had a great time, not only working with a good Dispatcher and operating a Brooklyn Beauty, but it was the first time he had assumed the responsibility of putting Car 6688 to bed for the night.
He soiled his undies? Cars like 1001 and 6688 make people wet with joy.
This time around, he should try 27. Quick, someone qualify the lad!
Subway Nuts, meanwhile don't die, they just multiply....
-Stef
P.S. Whatever happened to Reader T. Rabbit?
Last Member's Day, in April, we had both 1001 & 27 out at the same time for photo ops. Both cars were popular for the ride down the line too AND they are fun to operate IF your number comes up, i.e. lots of members sign up to sit in the seat
Thurston: One of the nice things about members day is when they bring out the old-timers and let them have a run of two down the line. Of course I'm talking about the equiptment and not the members.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
There will be a Streetcar in service to take you to the subway car[s].
And if this operator has anything to say about it that streetcar will be TARS 629 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry Chris,
The shuttle allready been spoken for:
^^^"if the weather is tolerable on March 30, we are going to have a BMTman [SubTalk]\BRTman [other side of the tracks] operating a 1906 BRT Laconia built convertible.
No B-Division motorperson operating A-Division cars. >GG<"^^^
March 30, may be an IRT Day, but it's not strictly limited to
Manhattan and the Bronx.
;-) Sparky
"boarding only at Ave L"
Yah keep the foamers off the cars as we wake em up in the barns. It is a pain climbing through all that foam to the other end of the Low-V to throw the knife switches.
I mean last time on the R9 I slipped and fell from the foam coming from Selkirk as switches in both cabs have to be thrown, I couldn't get door open on one cab because he already was in the operating position with his hands on the controls... come on Steve, got to turn the compressor on behind your head.
Booooooo ... heh. Nancy keeps commenting on how quickly I was up on the car that morning. But truth be told, wasn't MY foam. I was too busy trying to find the cab side marker paddle. :)
Come on, Kev, admit it. You couldn't wait to see 1689 again. I know I couldn't.
Nancy did in fact comment on how you hated it when you worked for the TA but now you won't stop talking about it.
Heh. Thirty years worth was a lot of separation anxiety for me. And yeah, I *loathed* the Teeyay when I worked there. But now that I don't and 30 years away from the TWU and trainmasters, well ... when you get older, the first thing you lose is your mind. Good thing it wasn't a vital organ. But yeah, I sure did love the TRAINS. It was the PEOPLE I couldn't stand. :)
But for me, 1689 was like getting behind the wheel of a 1967 Mustang again. Time has only increased the appreciation for what once was every ordinary day ... I found that I really MISSED Arnines, even more so having stroked 1689 again and again. NICE choochoo.
The way you started throwing breakers that morning seemed as though you'd been doing that sort of thing for years.
Heh. Wasn't all that many breakers, and Arnines were indeed something I once did every day. But once upon a time, I knew them better than many car inspectors. Especially when they acted up. Stuck door, no problem. Change bulb, No problem. Get caught DOING it, BIG problem. :)
Yeah, stuck door, pull leaf, right?
Listen for leaking air first. If leaf won't close and lock, time to pull handle under seat and latch. Flip valve, woohoo, let's go. But if the only thing wrong is that the door's lubricant is a little stiff, then you can pull it and everything will lock down. Usually though, this wasn't the problem on the road. More often than not, you had to pull the stuck newspaper out of the track first. :)
IIRC 1689 had a sticking door leaf while it was waking up back in October. Does the amount of charge have anything to do with door speed? I didn't waste any time playing with the doors.
Yes ... when you're not quite up to full, there's less air to push them. But that one door apparently had a bit stiffer lube than the others. That's why once the car warmed up it wasn't a problem. But all the others were happy once we were up to 40 which is why I thought it needed a little attention. No biggie though. It's when they won't move at all and you hear air leaking that it's time to break out the ball pein. :)
Ah, you got the year right!
If you hit the road early enough on a Saturday during warmer weather the trip should not take you more than an hour and a half.
Mitch, as has been noted above, there is a special SubTalk charter scheduled for Sunday, 30 March. See the Upcoming Events section of this website for more information and a phone number for Sparky, a.k.a. The Great Greenpointer, who will give you all the nitty-gritty details. I don't know what subway equipment is actually planned for operation that day, but you'll be able to see most all of what we've got (there may be some exceptions due to safety considerations). I'll be there, as will Sparky, BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, and a bunch of other SubTalker/BERA members... we'd love to have you join BERA and us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Third weekend of each month we will run RT equipment as well as other special events.
Joining on March 30th and you can come back one month for Members day and operate some more.
Mitch, I think you can tell that some of the other folks who replyed to your post are rt fans. I am one of them & joined the museum because of that equipment.
But a funny thing happened along the way to my getting qualified on some of the rt stuff, I got to appreciate & like the trolleys too. This past Saturday I enjoyed plowing a little snow on the line with three colleagues. It was a bit cold, we had to due quite a bit of shoveling & cleaning of the switches too, but that was all part of the fun. An interesting post script was the young man who hopped on board who was the reason for our effort, i.e. it was his birthday charter the next day that we were getting the line ready for.
If you can make it March 30th that would be great. If one of the rt week-ends is possible, that's fine too. But almost any week-end there is ample staff to show you where the rt stuff is stored, just ask. Meanwhile you & your son should enjoy the story of the trolley told in words & equipment you'll find on display.
1) I live in East Meadow (near the Nassau Coliseum) and it roughly takes me about an hour and a half to get there. Here's some advice:Although on LI I would rather take the parkways than the expressways I found that going to Branford I-95 is better than the Hutch-Merrit combo. (except during the fall foliage) I've been stuck in traffic more often on the Hutch-Merrit than 95 and its about 5 miles less on 95.If you're going to stop at one of the McDonalds (I hate fast food but you did say you have a toddler and they love Mickey D's) go to one OFF the highway (there are signs) rather than the ones in the service areas. They are less crowded and cheaper)Since you have a child may I remind you that Rye Playland is on the way back and Branford-Rye Playland makes a good double header for a child.It will take you longer on the Port Jeff/Bridgeport Ferry and its very expensive so unless you really want to take the boat ride, don't do it!
2) The subways only come out on special occasions such as member's day. If you join and go on Member's Day they will even let you operate. They even took out the "G" Car last year, the one you weren't even allowed inside at the Transit Museum! But even on other days the trolley's are fun. If you miss the compressor and motor sounds of the pre-war trains, the trolleys pretty much make the same sounds. And the same wicker seats!
3) The 3 mile trip is the best part. There is one member, Casey (nicknamed headlights) who comes every weekend and makes the trips back & forth all day. He even reads the paper on the car as if he's just a regular commuter going to work!!
Hey, just noticed that Dave has a bunch of pics from Branford right here on this site at http://www.nycsubway.org/mus/sltm.html
A-N-D those photos were taken by our friends here !
Some by a young man who wished he could work for the TA, now he does, but still doesn't make change for $50 bills < g >
I wonder who Mr. T is referring to?
My association with BERA began thorugh the Transit Museum. I was still a Tour Guide at the time and I was part of a group that travelled to East Haven. I saw the RT equipment in action on that wet and damp day in 10/98, and decided I had to come back for more. It was a day to remember.
-BERA MEMBER FOR LIFE
P.S. I'll make change for a $50 if you promise to make a $30 purchase! I don't make this up, you can read the fine print on the Booth Window. LOL!
^^^"My association with BERA began thorugh the Transit Museum. I was still a Tour Guide at the time and I was part of a group that travelled to East Haven. I saw the RT equipment in action on that wet and damp day in 10/98, and decided I had to come back for more. It was a day to remember."^^^
Must have been one hell of a good dispatcher that day, that kept
the wheels rolling. >amour propre< Thank you!!! >GG<
^^^"-BERA MEMBER FOR LIFE"^^^
At your age in life, one of the best investments you could have made.
:-) Sparky
I should be investing in LIFE MEMBERSHIP at Branford. How does that work? 20x The Amount of Yearly Dues?
Were you the Dispatcher? I can't seem to remember. True enough, everything kept rolling.
-Stef
Yes, 20x annual dues... especially not a bad investment for someone your age, but even for us old folks it's quite worthwhile, if only because it guarantees Branford the money.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
^^^[Were you the Dispatcher? I can't seem to remember. True enough, everything kept rolling.]^^^
Stef,
From your time now spent at Branford since that first visit,
without sounding narcissistic, when everything is going correctly,
I'm out of sight ~ not in your face type of Supervision?
;-) Sparky
But when you're an operator you ALWAYS know when Sparky's in the house
The Big Sikorski is in the House that Sprague Built. Someone's gotta keep the RR running!
-Stef
You betcha DUPA ... I keeps you moving. Besides, I have this one operator always looking for Sparky for Radio Checks. Eh, Good Buddy >GG<
;-) Sparky
Hay Good Buddy got your ears on yet this AM ?
Or should I say ... got your fingers warmed up yet ?
Working hard again, I see. Huh Good Buddy. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I've followed this board for quite a while, however this is my first posting. I've been a little intimidated since many of you guys seem to be much more knowledgeable than I am.
For the folks going to Prague - I was there last March and really enjoyed the city. All of our travel around the city involved using the subway and trams (trolleys). The subways were flooded late last year and I'm not sure if they're back in operation again. They are quite far underground and require long esclators that move very fast. If you're not careful you can easily get hurt gett on or off them - I saw it happen to one woman.
The tram system is quite extensive and is well used. The cars all appeared old enough to date from the communist era.
For you straphangers, at least one tram I was on had real leather straps!
I have to put my two cents in here ... again. There are a million reasons to be intimidated and a thousand reasons not to post. POST ANYWAY. Now I'm even hearing Selkirk say he won't talk politics. Imagine. If all the people who might have something that I might be interested were to be intimidated, I would be a WAY poorer person. EVERYBODY has his specialty and they ALL sound intimidating. We should all post anyway.
An attorney in Portland, OR has published an ACLU-ish brochure, The Photographer's Right, that explains, in general terms, the boundaries of law regarding photography and your rights when confronted. It might be a good idea to keep a copy in your camera bags.
See also the related discussion at photo.net.
I notcie the phrases "Property owners may legally prohibit
photography on their premises" and "Examples of places that are traditionally considered public are streets, sidewalks, and public parks."
I see they don't address whether public transit authorities fall into the category of property owners or of maintainers of public places such as streets. Maybe the courts have never decided that one way or the other.
>>> they don't address whether public transit authorities fall into the category of property owners or of maintainers of public places such as streets. Maybe the courts have never decided that one way or the other. <<<
Courts have decided that issue. Generally transportation systems are "private property" as opposed to public spaces such as sidewalks. They are treated like businesses open to the public. You must follow the rules while on transit property. MTA allows limited photography, PATH prohibits all photography on their premises. Neither can prohibit photography of their premises from a public location off their premises.
Tom
[Neither (MTA nor PATH) can prohibit photography of their premises from a public location off their premises.]
Exactly my thinking: If it's readily visible by the public, then its existence is a matter of public record and thus subject to being documented by the public.
This is excellent information - thank you very much for posting this. All photographers on this board should copy this information and carry it with them whenever they are out taking photographs. This brochure specifically covers our rights regarding public places, photography of people in public, and what constitutes permissable subjects. More importantly, it provides valuable information if a photographer is confronted by law enforcement or other persons.
Keep in mind that transit and railroad photography is somewhat different - if the photographer is on the operator's property, you are subject to the operator/owner's rules and regulations, and not all of the rights as outlined in the brochure apply in the same way. But the bottom line is the same - photography is covered by our laws regarding freedom of expression. We have the right to take photographs and generally cannot be prohibited from exercising that right. Use it or lose it.
Jim D.
I saw one gutsy guy on the 6 train, in an R142A heading downtown, taking photos with a tripod. He was also doin some physical manuevers on the bars! It was an old fashioned looking camera too, using big slides of film. Hopefully the new "Red guard" didnt bother him!
I'm assuming that camera is some sort of large format sheet film camera or a vintage glass plate camera. Either way, there's just no way to handhold one of those.
I was talking about Washington's food police with a friend earlier today, and said that it's a job I'm glad I don't have. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be chasing harmless photographers either. I'd much rather save my energy for real incidents as opposed to running around like an idiot, arresting people for subjecting silver halides to light or eating food. Do you guys know how the risks of a bad incident occuring shoot straight up when you threaten someone with arrest? Sheesh.
-Robert King
>>> I'd much rather save my energy for real incidents as opposed to running around like an idiot, arresting people for subjecting silver halides to light or eating food. <<<
I take it you are not a big fan of the "broken window" theory of law enforcement. The idea that if you don't fix the first broken window, more windows will be quickly broken. That translates to if you ignore the breaking of the small quality of life laws such as eating in the subway, there will be increasing disregard of all laws. The corollary that goes with it is those stopped for breaking the minor laws, are often the same people who break other more serious laws.
>>> Do you guys know how the risks of a bad incident occuring shoot straight up when you threaten someone with arrest? <<<
Not very much --- unless the person being arrested is someone who should be removed from the streets and has been avoiding arrest.
Tom
quality of life laws such as eating in the subway
Actually, eating and drinking (of non-alcoholic beverages) is legal in the subway, as long as you take your garbage with you and do not create a nuisance - 21 NYCRR 1050.7
In New York it is legal, but I think they were talking about Washington.
What I find works better is to warn people the first time around that they do/don't do _________(fill in here)____________ and mention the consequences if I catch them again. Then, if they come back and start up again, I would arrest without hesitation. To date, nothing has gone that far.
-Robert King
>>> What I find works better is to warn people the first time around that they do/don't do _________(fill in here)____________ and mention the consequences if I catch them again. <<<
A small town constable may be able to do that, but in a city the size of New York, a miscreant may be warned by ten different officers, each not knowing that he had been warned before. He tells his friends that the worst that will happen to them is a warning, and soon you have a low grade crime wave.
Tom
Agreed.
However, if the police dept is reasonably efficient, the officer issuing the warning can place a note in a file (electronic or paper - I prefer electronic). Other officers on that beat or elsewhere should have access to it.
Thus, if another officer interviews that person, thee second officer could learn that he/she had been warned before. It doesn't remove the variation that occurs when each officer exercises his/her discretion, but it can, in part, address what you talked about.
>>> if the police dept is reasonably efficient, the officer issuing the warning can place a note in a file (electronic or paper - I prefer electronic) <<<
That would never pass muster with the ACLU. It is bad enough that a rap sheet made up of arrests without convictions (which cannot be made public) is kept, now there would be a rap sheet for warnings. Police do keep records of "field interviews" which do not result in any arrest, but they do not go into a database indexed on the interviewee's name except with specialized gang units.
Here in California, it has been determined that any violation of the law serious enough to warrant a citation should be given a citation and not a warning. This prevents the practice, widespread in the East of handing an officer a driver's license with a twenty dollar bill behind it while he is deciding whether there should be a citation or a warning issued.
Tom
(This prevents the practice, widespread in the East of handing an officer a driver's license with a twenty dollar bill behind it while he is deciding whether there should be a citation or a warning issued.)
Not as widespread as you might think, at least not in New York State. I have heard quite a few cases of people innocently handing the officer their license in some kind of a container like a transparent billfold, and in every case the officer has insisted that the license be taken out of the billfold and handed to him alone.
I've heard the same about North Carolina and New Jersey (haven't had any personal experience, since I manage to stay within the law and consequently have only been asked for a license when someone else has banged into me). It may well have been a common practice at one time, but I don't think it is now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for posting... a copy is now in each of my major camera bags, and one in Jr.'s as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's enough of a surprise to me to have discovered not one but two subtalkers other than myself who have lived in Jackson, Mississippi. Those are some long odds, but what's more, all three of us had put together fantasy maps of some sort of rail rapid transit for this small city with a population of about 400,000 in its three-county metro area.
That made me wonder, how many others on this board have put imagined transit systems for the small cities where we used to live, places that probably haven't seen any form of rail transit since the days of streetcars, nor are likely to become part of the lightrail boom anytime soon?
If there are any armchair urban planners dreaming of rail schemes for out-of-the-way places, I'd love to hear about your ideas, and if you've gone so far as to make maps I'd love to see them.
Mark
I'm sure you've seen the scheme for Dayton, Ohio... I forget the URL, but it's been posted here a number of times in the past.
I've done fantasy maps for Cincinnati, Ohio and Jacksonville, Florida. I actually had a pretty ambitious 6-line heavy-rail Metro system planned for Cincy, but since they voted down the recent modest light rail proposal, they don't deserve it. As for Jacksonville, they've now got their little people mover thing to play around with.
I've also done fantasy schemes for Chicago that involved grafting a huge IND-style system into the existing "L" network, as well as restoring light rail service along the major avenues.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Dayton site is the Miami Valley Rail Authority. It's one of my all time favorites.
Where would your IND-style lines run in Chicago? On what avenues would you put your light rail?
Mark
Where would your IND-style lines run in Chicago?
They would run further out into the suburbs than the present-day "L" system, forming sort of a third tier of rail transit between the "L" and Metra, comparible in service to the DC Metro. Once they get inside the city itself, they would become the "express" trains while the existing "L" would become the "local". As such they would run mainly along existing trunk lines, but my plan also called for a vast expansion of "L" service throughout the city. Namely: An inner crosstown line roughly along Ashland Avenue (part of which has actually been proposed in the recent Circle Line scheme), an outer crosstown line along Cicero Avenue and roughly 75th Street, a lakefront line under Clark Street on the North Side and along the Metra Electric ROW on the South Side (Metra Electric trains would then run express within the city, with only two or three stops north of 95th Street). There would also be a short downtown circle line serving Navy Pier, Michigan Avenue, all four Metra stations, and McCormick Place.
On what avenues would you put your light rail?
In a nutshell, they would serve all the major avenues spaced at 1-mile intervals on the city's street grid. With few exceptions, these avenues are wide enough to easily accomidate a light rail line down a center median with island platforms. Examples include Ashland, Western, and Irving Park.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
There's also the subway in Mongolia.
dayton ohio does have a " trolley bus map "
and it is real !!
Yeah, I've been drawing transit maps for years. Mostly page by page in notebooks. The scale varies, the details vary. If it's blank paper the zoom level is generally lower. If graph paper I'll get closer to the action. Sometimes these maps have grown to 20, 30 pages. Or longer.
Amateur stuff. But I'll draw hwy. lanes, streetlights, railroad ROWs, cars, buses, track structures, buildings, crosswalks, station platforms. And trains. Streetcar lines too. And rivers, bridges, parks, "industrial districts", shorelines, mountains. All from a top down perspective.
Or I'll just let a transit system grow "naturally". Draw one central line. Gradually add connecting services. Vary the type of train (within the limits of one color ink hence the differentation is expressed by line symbology. I.E., small dashes for streetcar, larger dashes for heavy rail, of varying natures, solid lines for highways and streets (or, if the scale is larger, for "major arterials with intersections")). The thing about this type of drawing is how much can be done once the general pattern has emerged. Routes, uh, suggest themselves.
None of this, mind you, is superimposed upon any existing city map. I have done that with printed maps, yeah. It's especially pleasing to put rail lines through city streets! I also like to draw new streets on those blank areas of maps.
Why I do this I'm not sure. But I look at it this way; if the only thing I have to entertain myself is a pencil and a piece of paper, it'll do for the time being. I'll just sit there calmly and draw my transit systems.
Why I do this I'm not sure. But I look at it this way; if the only thing I have to entertain myself is a pencil and a piece of paper, it'll do for the time being. I'll just sit there calmly and draw my transit systems
Nothing odd about that...an awful lot of people bought Sim City and rest of the Sim games. Planning imaginary transit systems is no different than that...only it seems to require less expensive hardware! I wonder how hard it would be to program a Sim Subway game...
Mark
Very easy....go get the BAHN shareware.
(Sorry I don't have the URL....it's in the NY Subway Resources web site somewhere.)
Tis at www.jbss.de just click on english, and 3.80 is the latest version. I know it's 60 day shareware, and I haven't registered mine yet, not that I want to rip off fine Herr Bochmann, but I just keep forgetting.
If you DO decide to help Jan Bochmann with some funds, do it through one of the companies relaying payment to him (I think there is a shareware pay service based in Pennsylvania that he works with).
I sent payment direct to him years ago, and he claims he never got it, and I've been getting nastygrams about "not paying" for quite some time now. I don't even use the Bahn program any more, gave up on it about three years ago....and until my ISP change my e-mail address, kept getting the nastygrams saying I was, basically, stealing the program =- because I had created some layouts and for some strange reason, Herr Bochmann didn't have a record of payment.
There is something to be said about pencil and paper. A more granular approach, perhaps? But yeah, I've played with a few simulation apps. How about Roller Coaster Tycoon? I've built many a park with lots of cool train rides....as long as the money lasted that is. Like, parallel rail lines and overpasses and stuff. Very satisfying animation dynamics....and you just let `em rip. Love the whistles...
Also, there's one call TRAFFIC GIANT devoted soley to city traffic. Cars, trucks, trains. Looks a little like Sim City but probably with lots of more details relating to transportation. And hit up some university sites and engineering companies. There's a shoot load of simulation applications out there...some of `em UNIX based and really complex. Wish I had the time to play...
There is something to be said about pencil and paper. A more granular approach, perhaps? But yeah, I've played with a few simulation apps. How about Roller Coaster Tycoon? I've built many a park with lots of cool train rides....as long as the money lasted that is. Like, parallel rail lines and overpasses and stuff. Very satisfying animation dynamics....and you just let `em rip. Love the whistles...
Also, there's one call TRAFFIC GIANT devoted soley to city traffic. Cars, trucks, trains. Looks a little like Sim City but probably with lots of more details relating to transportation. And hit up some university sites and engineering companies. There's a shoot load of simulation applications out there...some of `em UNIX based and really complex. Wish I had the time to play...
I thought I was the only person with a copy of Traffic Giant - Frommy experience Bahn would probably be his best bet to simulate his system.
BAHN would be the best, I am currently laying out my DC fantasy system in BAHN now.
Mark,
I did one for Richmond, Va many years ago with a map, I'd have to search for it but if I find it, I'll scan and aend it to you. I also took the Washington and Baltimore metros (In the case of Baltimore I took the entire planned system that was designed in the early 70's) and designed an 8 line system that joined both systems and expanded them well into Anne Arundel, Howard, Harford and Carroll counties...in the same vein as San Francisco, I called it the MART (Maryland Area Rapid Transit) system.
Mark (the other one)
actually there is a dayton trolley bus map so dont knock it !
I have a fantasy map showing a comprehensive rail and bus system using the city of Houston, Texas as a template. Of course I`m not calling it Houston, I`m calling it Metropolis. The fantasy system is called : Metropolis Regional Transit Authority---METRO (how original and common!). I changed the names of several streets,landmarks, colleges, and Malls on the map, and even identified the block on which the city's major paper, "The Daily Planet" is located. Now if I can find someone who can actually put this on a web page, I would be happy !
The system is a blending of the NYC and Washington systems. It has 4 track trunk lines and 2 or 3 track branch lines. It has 14 subway [with express and local lines] , 1 light rail, and about 250 bus routes covering the city, and surrounding suburbs. I`m on my 5th edition, and its taking me a hell of a long time to make all of the changes on it. It can be a real ordeal when you`re drawing on a Rand-McNally map.
The equipment used on the Metro is sort-of a pick and choose from various systems, like cars from Boston's Red Line (Pullman and H/S cars), and stripped down versions of the WMATA cars. The bus fleet is mostly Flxible Metros B,D, and E, Orion V's, MCI Classics, and New Flyer Artics. The Light rail line uses Portland's low-floor Siemens cars.
Details of this fantasy system will be forthcoming.
MDL
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Okay, this was a VERY slow response (as I am lousy at drawing), but here is a map of a fantasy subway system I have created for Birmingham, UK. Birmingham is the second largest city in Britain with a population of about 1 million, although the metropolitan area has a population of 2½ million.
Enjoy!!!
Better late than never! The map looks great. I like the inclusion of express service.
Thanks!
Mark
Thanks, Mark! Who doesn't enjoy expresses? I've nearly got it working as a BAHN layout - I just need to sort the scheduling out on one line and then that will follow...
(Sometimes I think I have too much time on my hands...)
Chicago isn't an unlikely city but this plan is:
www.geocities.com/andstayfree
It's a fairly large image. Dial up users have patience, please!
I wish I had my camera this morning. Seems the AK Bridge really does work, because I can find no other explanation for how a high-rail bucket truck got on there with the bridge in the raised position. That is, the bridge is UP, and the truck is on the deck.
-Hank
It better work. There was an article in the Star Ledger a couple of weeks age explaining that there is an agreement to run freight again on the line.
Yes, once the Chemical Coast connection is finished sometime before 2008.
Yes, 2008.
-Hank
"Chemical Coast" is a great name. I don't know why I love it so much. I just do.
---Brian
B brighton express
D westend local
n express via bridge
q local from brighton to to 57th
w discontinued
r unchanged
If any one has more info such as the lay out of servioce for cpw and the gcc or the northeren terninal of the q prease share.
I've heard some of that too. (though not what would be local or express) I wonder if the Q would be the 24/7 Brighton then. (as someone here has been wishing).
Beats me what is leading them to this idea.
Seems interesting that B will go to Brighton and D will go to West End (according to this plan). I have a feeling that whatever plan they come up with, we'll likely be totally shocked or possibly really angry ;)
Maybe they're going to use "B" for Brighton Exp so they can keep it a part-time line like it is today.
wayne
The only problem is that would be an easy two tripper and a hard three tripper unless they also made other changes.
The Manny B's service changes must be among the most-discussed topics on Subtalk. I'm willing to bet there are more posts about this than just about any other topic.
The amazing thing is that this is more or less a new slant on the topic. I only recall switching the B and D in Brooklyn being suggested once before, and it got lost in the shuffle of grander proposals.
It's a little like chess - endless variations are available.
If the D goes to the West End, it will be the 3rd Southern Division Line where it ran
1954-67 Culver
1967-??? Brighton
What's this you say? Slants will be running on the B and D?
The Manny B's service changes must be among the most-discussed topics on Subtalk. I'm willing to bet there are more posts about this than just about any other topic.
True, but are you forgetting about 76th Street Station?
Presumably they want to put the B on the Brighton because it will be a part time line both on the Brighton and the Concourse, with D full time on the Brighton and the West End.
But I've got a better idea. Make the B the full time line to 205th Street on the Concourse going to 205th Street, and restore it to the West End.
Today, the D is sometimes local and sometimes express. That's confusing. As I propose the D would always be express -- Brighton, 6th Avenue, Concourse to Bedford Park -- when it runs. It would always be the D Diamond.
That's a very true statment mr Brian. They could implement a plan that CAN in fact be shocking. Who knows, the Q could become the 24/7 Brighton line and the D only runs all times from Broadway/Lafayette-205 St; this is JUST A EXAMPLE! Here's the 'obvious' plan:
B-back to pre 7/22/01
D-back to pre 7/22/01 [could it be the Brighton express again though?]
N-Express via Manhattan bridge and Broadway
Q-Same as post 7/22/01; possibly to Queens and expanded weekend service via Brighton express
W-Runs from Whitehall-Ditmars Blvd via local
Of course NOTHING is finalized, this is my prediction for 2004 service, can it be different of course it can.
Could Be as Follows
B-Rush Hours Bay Pkwy-Bronx Local Other times 2nd Ave-168th St
D-Pre 7-22-01
N-same as now
Q-Mon Fri 6A-10PM Brighton Beach-179th Jamaica Express All the Way via 63rd St
Sat 7A-9P Brighton Beach-57th St Manhatten
F-Coney island-179th St Via 53rd St Local all the way
F-Coney Island 179th St Via 63rd St When Q is not running
R-Same
V-Eliminated
W-As Today express via Bridge
8th Ave Changes
A-207-Far Rockaway Same as today
C-No Changes
E-No Changes
K-207th St-Lefferts Blvd Nights Shuttle Euclid-Lefferts
H-207th-Rockaway Pk Rush Hrs. Other times Shuttle to Euclid-
I forgot the M
Rush Hrs to CI via Brighton Local. Other times to Chambers or Myrtle/Bdwy
I heard this too with some sort of B AND C to 168.
It does have some logic. It matches up the two services NYCT probably doesn't want to run on weekends (2nd CPW local and Brighton express).
On the other hand, it doesn't match train frequencies very well. The Brighton express needs more trains per hour than the Concourse/CPW local, while the Concourse express needs more train than the West End line.
If the W is discontinued, then the Q should be extended from 57th to Astoria during rush hours.
Uh oh, bad news for Fred and the Sea Beach line if true. Doing that would mean the MTA has decided that the D and the Q will be the primary south Brooklyn services via bridge, and will run 24/7/365, while the B and the N will be the secondary services, and will probably be cut back to either no service (B) or branch service only (N) on nights and weekends, even after both sides of the bridge are back in service.
The N will probably still get to go back on the bridge with the Q at least during regular hours Mondays through Fridays, but aside from that, it's open to question if it will go further north than Fourth Ave.-36th St. (the Q could be extended to Astoria when the N isn't running north of 36th St.), and the Q will simply run its regular Brighton local route when the B is not in service, while the C serves everything between 59th and 145th on weekends or the A (or D) during overnight hours.
Broadway in Manhattan on the weekends has enough traffic to warrant 20 tph (8 R, 6 Q, 6 N). The only times it hasn't had that number of trains has been when the south side of the MB has been closed.
I can see sending the N over the bridge but then making it a local north of Canal, though. The 4 additional local stops are pretty busy.
If the W is discontinued, then the Q should be extended from 57th to Astoria during rush hours.
If the W is discontinued, then the Q should be extended from 57th to Astoria in rush hours.
Mike,
Very interesting ideas here but i doubt they will happen.
1-Upon the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge 6th Avenue tracks and the completion of the reconstruction of Stillwell Avenue West End service will no longer operate to Manhattan during midnight hours so what will happen to the D during midnight hours? Who would provide West End service during the same period.
2-I believe that the N Line will resume daytime operation via the Manhattan Bridge which will be similar to the W Line operation between August 2001 and September 2002 weekdays from 6AM to 9PM with service operating via tunnel and local all other times- Also see item #4 below
3-The W Line will indeed continiue to operate weekdays between 6AM and 8PM between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street as a Broadway Local. This has been the TA's plan since the late 1980's when the N and R switched terminals.
4-I believe that the R Line will resume 24 hour operation between Queens and Brooklyn as a full time Broadway Local. One possibility is the N making local stops nights and weekends but operating via the bridge between DeKalb Ave and Canal Street.
As of now it is too early to speculate, I believe that the TA will completely revise Brooklyn Culver,Brighton,West End and 4th Avenue service after both projects are complete.
Thats my opinion.
Thank You
Not gonna happen. Swapping the B and D in Brooklyn makes no sense.
Here's what I think will happen (and I have a good track record at predicting future service changes):
B Coney Island/6th Ave via Sea Beach in Brooklyn, weekdays to 11 PM, other times a shuttle to Pacific St.
D Same as before 7/22/01
N Astoria/Broadway/West End via bridge (stopping at 49th St weekdays)
Q Broadway Brighton express, weekdays
W Astoria/Whitehall St. local, weekdays
M Same as before 7/22/01
Swapping the B and N allows the West End line to retain 24/7 service to Manhattan, while improving current Sea Beach service dramatically. No other major alteration of service is warranted or necessary. There will be no Brighton/tunnel service.
If the plan i posted yeaterday is what happeneds I can see :
B Brighton Beach/betford park b'lvd express weekday 530 am south 900 north/145 street concource express south 6a-1p north 1pm-8pm
D Coney Island/205 street 24/7 ex 36 street brooklyn 59th street manhattan local 59th -205th street skips dekalb 6a-9p weekdays
local in brooklyn 36 street -dekalb mid nights
N coney island/ 57 street 6am -12m 7 days express 59 bklyn/ 57th street manhattan skips Deklab
nidnights express to pacific street
Q coney island/astoria lacal coney island/ditmars 24/7
R unchanged
w discontinued
Meaning no disrespect to anybody....
WHERE DO THESE RUMORS COME FROM???? Whispers in the crew room? Wish-lists at the union hall? SubTalkers inventing stuff to see how far it goes?
Maybe we all should wait for Transit to (gasp!!) actually DEVELOP a plan first, and then (gasp!!) ANNOUNCE it, before offering criticism. Then again, that might be too much to ask.
It seems like the TSS's hear this stuff and spread it to the crew rooms. Where they get it from? Probably Superintendants. Maybe it's their wish list, or maybe they're geeting it from people above them.
Are there any other passegeways outside of fare control in the NYC Subway, like the Broadway tunnel at 191st in Washington Heights, where the public uses an NYCT passageway to get somewhere? Thanks.
---Brian
There is a passageway at the 63 Drive station on the Queens Blvd line which features a passageway that goes right under Queens Blvd. There are signs that mention it as a "Subway Pedestrian Underpass." It's a great alternative to crossing the extremely wide Queens Blvd.
169 St also has something similar; you could use the fare control area to go across 169 St or Hillside Av, depending on where you go.
My favorite one is the Main St station. Whenever the light is on "don't walk", I go down into the station, walk through the passageway and go out across the street. This way, I can cross the street when it says "don't walk" but at the same time not be busted for jay-walking. ;) It did take me a week or so to finally figure out which stairways go where.
Hmmm. What about the shuttle passageway at GCT. There are two. One in fare control and one outside of fare control. The one outside fare control is closed on weekends.
I don't think that passageway is maintained by NYCT, is it? I think it's maintained by some city agency -- Parks comes to mind, for some reason.
Ya ya ya... you know what I mean.
There's the new one connecting 49th St. station with Rockefeller Ctr.
Thenthere's the closed ones on both ends of the 34th St. complex that nobody wants responsibility for.
You can use the mezzanine at Chambers (1,2,3,9) station as a pedestrian underpass, as it has entrances at all four corners of the crossroads of Chambers and West Broadway leading to the same out-of-fare-control area with the token booth. I feel sure that there must be other stations arranged like that. Lots of stations on "my" system - the London Underground - are arranged the same way. In London the entrances are sometimes actually signed as "Subway" - which is the UK term for a pedestrian underpass under a street - as well as Underground entrances.
"You can use the mezzanine at Chambers (1,2,3,9) station as a pedestrian underpass"
Very handy if you're in a hurry and just got a red light. Down one flight of stairs, across, and back up, saving 30 seconds over waiting for the light to turn green.
Other opportunities: 7th Ave at 12 and 14th (north side). I think also 8th Ave at 16th and 23rd.
Not convenient for just crossing the avenue, but save you an avenue crossing when getting to the LIRR: 7th and 8th Aves at 33rd St.
Incidentally, I have often seen the gate to the passageway from 7th to 8th at 14th St left ajar. I've never had the nerve to investigate, though.
Incidentally, I have often seen the gate to the passageway from 7th to 8th at 14th St left ajar. I've never had the nerve to investigate, though.
What's the history of that? When was it open? Anything special about it?
---Brian
Not sure of the history. Presumably in times where there was less fear of crime the passageway was open, but always outside fare control. Now the 8th Ave end isn't even visible any more. It probably goes into the operations area there.
In London the entrances are sometimes actually signed as "Subway" - which is the UK term for a pedestrian underpass under a street - as well as Underground entrances
Such as the most confusing Trafalgar Square Charing Cross.
The elevator for the northern exit of the 181st Street station on the A is outside the fare zone. At the bottom of the shaft, which is at the mezzanine above the track level, is a pedestrian tunnel that lets you out at street level on Bennett Avenue near 184th Street. Fort Washington Avenue, under which the A runs, and Saint Nicholas Avenue, under which the 1/9 run, form respectively the western and eastern summits of a deep valley that contains Broadway. Hence all the tunnels and elevators.
Many neighborhood people will use the free 181st elevator to get between shopping on Broadway and residence on Fort Wash without having to scale some steep hills. You'll see many people with wagons and laundry carts- and even orthodox Jews on the Sabbath bound for the many synagogues on Bennett. It's apparently OK to use an elevator during Shabbat provided someone else is operating it.
It's apparently OK to use an elevator during Shabbat provided someone else is operating it.
Well, that's one opinion. There is always more than one opinion in Judaism :)
---Brian
How right you are, Brian... and the nice thing about us is that we all have so many opinions, we don't even need another person to have an argument :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Flatbush Ave Station On the 2/5 is another blessing when you just missed the light trying to transfer from the B44 to the B41. Am I the only one who thinks that some of thes crosswalk signals are TOO short.
I have two questions. First, I notice that cops get on the buses without paying. That's fine with me, as the cops are underpaid as it is. Is this a rule, or do the drivers just let them do it?
Secondly, is there some rule that cops cannot sit? I notice on buses and trains the cops always stand, even when there are seats. I'm just curious.
I always that cops (in NYC) could ride free when in uniform. As for them being underpaid... Well if they feel underpaid they could always go into another line of work. Also - I'll just say that I have a real issue with the police espcially in NYC because many are disrespectful, but they always cry about folks not respecting them. I think many of us learn as children to (1) respect others and you'll receive it in return and (2) treat others the way you wish to be treated. I realize they're some good, hard-working cops out there, but the high number of bad apples spoil the rest. I have no sympathy for them. I proudly wear my FDNY shirt, but you couldn't pay me to wear anything with NYPD - and blue is my favorite color.
Wayne
I don't believe the ride-free policy on buses (and in the subway) has anything to do with alleged underpayment. Having a uniformed police officer on the bus or train certainly helps as far as safety is concerned.
That's sounds logical. When I worked at McDonald's we always gave free food to uniformed police officers. The entire reason was that no one is going to try to rob the place while two officers are in there having lunch.
Mark
"When I worked at McDonald's we always gave free food to uniformed police officers."
Police officers in NYC are no longer permitted to accept ANY free items from merchants. Free McD sounds harmless, but management couldn't figure out a reasonable way to draw the line. The risk is that if a merchant is too generous, the officers will hang around protecting the merchant rather than providing protection to areas that may need it more.
>>> The risk is that if a merchant is too generous, the officers will hang around protecting the merchant rather than providing protection to areas that may need it more. <<<
And more importantly they might tend to look the other way at what may be minor violations of the law by the merchant.
Tom
>>> I'll just say that I have a real issue with the police espcially in NYC because many are disrespectful, <<<
You should come to L.A. where the police are always respectful, For instance they will say "SIR, lie face down with your hands away from your body." And even if you are disrespectful to them, they will treat you like a King. :-)
Actually, I have always liked the look of New York uniformed police officers. They look like individual human beings, compared to the LAPD officers who look like they have come from the end of an assembly line at a robot factory.
Tom
Cops have always been allowed free on public transit. My dad was a FDNY lieutenant, and when he was alive, he just showed his badge/ID and got onto the subway and buses free.
Out here in California, all police, fire, and active military are allowed to ride free when showing their ID.
As for why they stand -- when they're standing, they can see better what's going on in a train or bus.
>>> Out here in California, all police, fire, and active military are allowed to ride free when showing their ID. <<<
This may be the common practice, but I do not see it stated in the fare policies on any web sites.
Tom
Only firemen being transfered between houses carrying their bunker gear ride free.
I think a station agent should chime in here.
It's not for public consumption, so to speak. That's why it doesn't show in any public documents. But, letters were sent to the law enforcement and fire protection agencies in every community in our service area.
Plus I'd guess a cop on their FEET would be quicker to act
than one sitting on their buns...
Seats are for people who pay a fare, which means children should sit on their guardians lap, school kids should stand as well as all TA,NYPD and FDNY personnel who are riding for free. Do we do it NOPE
When I ride in uniform I stand...at the RFW. ;-)
Ever faithful to your duty...
:0)
From what I understand, NYCT employees who swipe in for free are required to give up their seats for paying customers. AFAIK, that doesn't apply to children and students who also ride for free. I don't know about others who are entitled to ride for free.
From the Rulebook:
Rule 27 Authorized Free Riders
(c) Free riders must ride where they will not interfere with employees operating trains or buses, or with the comfort of passengers, and must not occupy seats if revenue passengers are standing.
My translation: if there is an empty seat, I can sit. When ALL the seats in my car (or bus) are filled, then I will give up my seat.
NYPD/FDNY are issued special Metrocards to use 24/7 for entry on subways/buses. Free riding privileges are being extended to LIRR/MNRR as well. It's a benefit of the job, and the MTA enjoys the presence of more public safety professionals in their system. Free transport encourages off-duty travel, and if something happens and an off-duty cop is there to render aid, that's OK, too.
I know for a fact that a friend of mine is a NYC Department of Health Sanitarian (Resturant Inspector) and they get to ride Buses and Subways for free as well, as Public Transportation is their only way to travel, except SI and Queens that have cars. They show their badges and go through the gate.
What's NYCTA policy for active-duty military personnel?...I know the few times I went home and traveled by bus and subway in uniform, 90% of the time, the S/A's and B/O's and even the police on occassion told me my money was no good.
I know the few times I went home and traveled by bus and subway in uniform, 90% of the time, the S/A's and B/O's and even the police on occassion told me my money was no good.
Why were you carrying counterfeit money? :-D
I went out Monday to photograph the Maple Avenue bridge in Westmont, NJ, because it is slated to be demolished and replaced. What makes it partucularly historic is that I spent MANY days playing on and under it from 1945 to 1950, dodging Pennsy K4's and Reading G's pulling Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines trains to the Jersey Shore and back to Philly. It was the PRR then, two tracks.
What line is this bridge on ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That is now the NJT Atlantic City line.
Bob, your pic looks like a prime candidate for a photo contest!
That was weird. I just saw a double-decker Patchogue train at Farmingdale. I had walked up to the station from work, looking to board a Brentwood bound train. The diesel was on the eastbound rails, and the whole train had been discharged. As I got there buses arrived to take them all to Babylon. I was debating whether to jump on one of the buses and make my way to Islip, rather than getting off at Brentwood and catching either the S45 or the 3D up Suffolk Avenue to Islip Ave, whereupon I walk down Islip Avenue to my home. From Islip I do the same walk UP Islip Ave but I don't have to connect to a bus.
Anyway....the only thing I can figure is there was something blocking the train from heading southeast on the Central Branch west of Farmingdale. It was around six at night, and it's been snowing. Uh, fallen tree on the track? Or problems with signals? I don't know but it was pretty unusual. Anybody know about this?
I noticed that train too. Diesels are a rare sight east of the Central Branch cutoff, except for the two-car Greenport shuttles.
Most likely the diversion was due to some problem on the Central Branch. Whatever it was, it must have happened after the train passed Jamaica.
Heard on the news there was an accident where a truck wound up on the tracks, near Babylon, so that could've been the cause of the blockage.
Richard White, WMATA's chief executive officer, will be on "Sprawl and Crawl", a call-in program on WTOP Radio (Washington) concerning transportation and urban growth in the Washington, DC area. The show airs at 10 AM ET on Wednesday, February 12. You may e-mail your questions in advance on the WTOP website, www.wtopnews.com, or you may call in during the show. Listen to the show on 1500 AM, 820 AM, 107.7 FM, or on www.wtopnews.com, powered by ConnectLive Webcast Services.
Also, for the other part of Transit and Weather Together, ABC 7 (WJLA-TV) Chief Meterologist Doug Hill will be doing the first ever "Ask the Meterologist" tomorrow morning at 10. I guess Todd had too many other engagements so they had to make to with Doug. Ask the Meterologist will also accept e=mail questions in advance on the WTOP website, www.wtopnews.com, or you may call in during the show. Listen to the show on 1500 AM, 820 AM, 107.7 FM, or on www.wtopnews.com, powered by ConnectLive Webcast Services.
Yeah, well I'm still at the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society in Long Beach, CA (but taking time out to ride the LA system of course).
Next Transit and Weather Together on WCBS is scheduled for next Monday (Presidents' Day), 5-11am and 4-8pm.
>>> Yeah, well I'm still at the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society in Long Beach, CA (but taking time out to ride the LA system of course) <<<
So you guys are the ones bringing the cloudy skies and forecasts of rain to our normally sunny area. :-)
Tom
Richard White, WMATA's chief executive officer, will be on "Sprawl and Crawl", a call-in program on WTOP Radio
(Washington) concerning transportation and urban growth in the Washington, DC area. The show airs at 10 AM ET on
Wednesday, February 12. You may e-mail your questions in advance on the WTOP website, www.wtopnews.com, or you
may call in during the show. Listen to the show on 1500 AM, 820 AM, 107.7 FM, or on www.wtopnews.com, powered by
ConnectLive Webcast Services.
I just wrote a great post about the use of NYC type designators on other cities' subway systems, but I posted it on the WRONG BOARD. It was posted on the Bus Talk posting board. Is there anyway that post can be moved to SubTalk without me re-writing the whold goddamn thing again? (I had to re-write it because when I tried to correct some typos, my p.o.s. computer deleted the whole f--king thing) However, if it cannot be moved, go to BusTalk and look for "Applying NYC route designatord on other Cities' systems". Sorry for the invconvenience.
It can't be moved but...have you ever heard of "cut and paste"?
You go get 'em David!! ;-)
Ok guys I think I found a way to avoid the whole limitation thing with the pictures.
David and I hit the rails today and snapped off some pictures, unfortunately the snow was disappointing at best. And Astoria was dismal as far as photo ops went.
Check them out at:
http://groups.msn.com/GoumbasNYCSubwayPhotos/pictures
Unfortunately I'm unsure of how to properly link an MSN group page, so if the above doesn't work, hit groups.msn.com, and the keywords for the group are Goumba and Subway.
You'll probably need an MSN Passport to get in, any of you who viewed the pictures inside of the AirTrain station posted recently (forgot by who) successfully, has one.
As soon as I straighten out with MSN my space limits (I'm a paying member but they won't give me all my space), I'll be posting videos there as well.
Great photos! I wish I could have joined you. But instead I was doing my part back in the office. Hopefully we'll get a huge blizzard on a Sunday so I can get some "subway snow day" photos this winter. Just not March 30th, because that's the subway driving day up in CT.
Take Pride,
Brian
Route Destination sign at Park Place featuring the rare reverse-slant R40.
Wow, so rare that I never heard of it till I saw your photo. Neat find.
Take Pride,
Brian
What, you didn't know that they're now running upside-down R-40's on the Franklin shuttle?
No. I thought it meant they were running R-32's on the shuttle, but they were going like 100mph so it looks like they are slanted.
Nice photos - and yes, they do work.
Nice pics. Love the shots of the Willy B and at Parkside Ave.
The Square Dance goes like this:
R-143s to East NY.
R-40/40M East NY to Coney Is.
Phase II R-32 Coney Is. to Jamaica.
Phase I R-32 Jamaica to Pitkin.
The important thing to focus on is the imminent total loss of R-32s at Coney Island. I believe they have been assigned there in some form, continuously, since inception in 1965.
Reflecting off-the-cuff, I believe affected routes in that time include the AA (K)/B, Q (M/QB), N, R (RR) and Franklin Shuttle. I know that R-32s were usually regulars on the N and R during many of those years...Time Does Fly!
If time permits, I will try to research this some.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
By affected, do you mean all the routes they've been on for the past 38 years? AFAIK, the R-32s have been on every B Division route, including the Brighton D and Culver F trains that would have gone to (but not neccessarily operated out) of Coney Island.
Two routes the R32 probably never ran on:
LL (L)
KK
The R32's were on the L train for a brief period during the paint job done on the R30's back in the late 80's. I rode on one from Rockaway Parkway to Manhattan.
R32's on the L in the late 80's? I find that almost impossible to believe.
If he said he rode on one in the late 80's, how is that impossible? The R30's DID go through the paint job & GOH around that time.
The R30 rehab program was over by 1988. I'm not saying he's a liar. I'm just saying that the likleyhood of an R32 on the L at any time after 1986 isn't good. He may have misidentified an R42.
He'd have to have some BAD eyes LOL 8-). All jokes aside, well it IS unlikely a R32 ran on the L but if he rode it, we have no proof of disputing that.
Circa 1983 to 1985, there were several sets of R32s running on all Eastern Division routes.
"He may have misidentified an R42."
I can tell the difference between and R32 and R42, LOL. I do remember now I was fresh out of high school in '86 and I rode the R32 on the L train, was some grafitti on it but not as BAD as those R27-30 cars.
I'm highly skeptical.
"I'm highly skeptical."
I wouldn't waste my time posting such nonsense as that if I lied abouth it. What I see on the subway is what I see, nothing else I play around with.
R32s replaced R27/30/30A cars on the Eastern division[J,M,L]while the cars were being GOH. They ran on all the lines over there..[use to live near the Flushing ave station]
Thank you very much for backing me up, I knew now (not back then, very young to understand the models.) why the R32 I saw on the L line back in 1986 or so. Hate it when someone doubted me, even though I can be wrong like everyone else.
your welcome.
An R-32 on the "L" may have been possible. But remember, there were also lots of R40m/42's on the "L" in the '80's as well. Tony
oh,they did indeed run on the 6th ave KK line...saw one with my own eyes,and rode it, too
Well, some R42 will have to go too, since (R40 (ENY) + R40M) = 146 cars, that would mean 66 would have to shift (if the Odd Couple 4460/4665 goes, its 64).
Here's a thumbnail sketch of some of the R32's journeys:
(delivery -to Chrystie) N, Q, QB, TT.
(post-chrystie to mid 70s) B, D, N, QJ
After that I am not too sure; I saw them all over the place, like on the B, CC, GG, N, etc. Right before GOH they got blue doors inside (with beige interiors); I used to see them on the "GG" among other lines.
wayne
I also remember the R32's on the M in the early to mid 80's, before they were rebuilt, and when the M was still on the Brighton.
Hmmm, I seldom remember R-32's on the M during those years. I really recall R-27-30's and R-42's (the 4800-4900 numbers). I basically recall R-32's during the early-mid 80's on the N and RR lines mostly. Tony
I didn't really ride the M regularly, at least to remember what I was riding before 1984. (I rode before that, but I didn't distiguish subway cars before that, at least not knowingly). But from 1984-1985, the M was mostly R27-30's like you said. But it also had grafittied, oranged doored R40 slants, and R42's quite often.
There is no doubt in my mind though that I also rode R32's and even R38's on the M during that period. I didn't know what they were called at the time, but I remember them as "ribbed" all the way down (R32), and half ribbed (R38). Around 1986 they left for good, and I remember R16's became quite prevelant on the M, and all the other stainless steal cars disappeared for a few months. Then the R40M, R40 slants, and the R42's returned cleaned up and with blue interior and exterior doors. By 1987, the R16's disappeared "overnight", and it was back to mostly grafitted R27-30's, and a few red ones mixed in. Then of course in 1989, the R40-42 rebuilts started to show up and slowly the grafitted R27-30's disappeared, until the mix became red R30's and rebuilt R40-42.
Most people do not remember the 32's and even 38's on the M, but from Sept. 80—June '83 I was riding to school everyday. In '80, I didn't seem to see any 32's; just 42's on all three lines, plus 40m and 44 on the D, and of course the 30's on the M and QB. Then as the 44's left, the 32's came back, on all 3 lines (the D more than the M and QB, of course.) This is the way it was until I left that area. (except that slant 40's began showing up on the D that last semester)It was in fall'81 that I began seeing this 8 car train on the M that looked like a cross between the 32 and 42. Then they appeared on the QB, D, B and even RR as well. Spring '82 they suddenly disappeared (to the A for good).
"Most people do not remember the 32's and even 38's on the M"
How about R-38's on the (RR). There was more train one in January of '79 or '80.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spring '82 they suddenly disappeared (to the A for good).
You are correct in everything in your post.
Only thing though is that I only started to ride the subway in Fall 1984 regularly, and that was when I remembered riding the R32's and R38's occasionally on the M. They probably didn't leave the M entirely for the A until some time in 1985, perhaps when they left one by one to be rebuilt.
I don't know if some could have come back in '84 (doubt it), as I was not on the Brighton in those days, but from early '82 to Summer '83, there were no mopre 38's on the Brighton. Perhaps you were in a higher 32? (which had nearly the same interior)
1 set of R32's ran on the M during the 9/11 reroutes.
Pre-Chrystie, R32s in the rush normally appeared exclusively on the Q, M, T, TT, and N lines.
For pre Christie "M" I only remember seeing R27/30.
After the GOH, I've seen them on the A,C,E,G,N,Q & R. I used to see R32's on the Q middays very often in 1999-2000 but that was the last time they were there and when the G was getting reduced in carsize a few years ago, that was the last time I saw them there.
They also ran on the AA immediately after the Chrystie St. connection opened. I used to see them quite often on Saturdays while waiting for an A train at 42nd St. Those R-32s were so quiet you wouldn't know they had stopped until they were pulling out and on their way to 34th St.
Part I: The BMT Years
R-32s based at Coney Island were used on the following routes:
Q Brighton Express (9/14/64-11/25/67).
QB Brighton Local (10/64-11/64).
QT Brighton-Nassau Local (9/64-11/25/67).
TT West End Shuttle (4/65-11/25/67).
N Sea Beach (nite & wknd 4/65-5/65, all times 5/65-11/25/67).
RR Fourth Ave-Nassau (5/65-11/25/67).
T West End Express (5/65-11/25/67).
TT West End Local (7/65-11/25/67).
SS Franklin Shuttle (11/26/65, mixed with R-11s-6/23/66).
SS Culver Shuttle (7/8/66-7/11/66).
R-32s provided much of the Brighton Local (QB) service the day before Chrystie St. was placed in operation, replacing the usual R-27/30s.
Part II: 1967-1981
AA (11/29/67-1/78, 6/79-5/80, 12/80-1/29/81)
B (11/26/67-5/78, 6/79-5/80, 12/80-1/29/81)
N (11/26/67-8/30/76)
NX (11/30/67-12/15/67)
SS Franklin Shuttle (12/20/67 with R-11s. 7/68, separate-8/30/76, 1/77-2/77, 6/77-3/78, 9/78-10/2/78).
RR (10/69-11/70, 1/73-8/30/76, 3/77-1/78, 9/78-1/29/81)
M (1/9/73-8/30/76, 2/77-1/29/81).
QB (10/70-11/70, 2/71-8/30/76, 2/77-1/29/81).
QJ (2/70-3/70, 10/70-11/70, 1/71-12/31/72).
(Yawn)....to be continued.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
A number of the things you listed are inaccurate, to my recollection. The M was the Brighton-Nassau Express service, and by Sept. '65 it had Brightliners, exclusively. R32s were rare on the QT, which was the Broadway/Brighton local, and I never saw one on the RR, at least not before Nov. '67. For post-Chrystie, you left out the D, which probably had more Brightliner units assigned to it than any other route.
It was very accurate. Read the part "Yawn, to be continued" :-)
Dear Q:
There were many other routes, but only those using equipment based at Coney island are listed. That leaves out Jamaica, Pitkin and Concourse, where D equipment has been based.
Coney Island had the AA/B (AA later to K), QB/QJ (11/67-12/72), M/QB (1/73-1986), N (11/67-8/76), RR (later R) and Franklin SS. The assignments as shown here are broken down by route, not barn so some interpretation is necessary. And, I only made up to early 1981 in the course of one hour. Have to chase down the rest of it when I get time.
Fine tuning and/or first hand memory is definitely welcome, but sometimes the records don't support the memories. I didn't begin to experience and track things first hand until 1977, and then mostly the IRT and R-10s for a while after that.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for the clarifications. I wonder if the R32 D equipment was out of Coney Island or Concourse. You do have a misprint/mistake in your list, with regard to pre-Chrystie. Then, the M was the Brighton-Nassau, and not the QT as appears in your list. The M had the R32s. R32s were rare on the QT. Some things are lost in memory, others are not. I rode the Brighton almost every weekday, except summers, from Sept. 1965 until the Chrystie changes. That experience has been indelible in my memory ever since.
I do recall R32 M trains in the early 80's. Not common, but have seen them and rode them. Some D trains had R32's even during the Skip-Stop days of the Brighton Line. I never saw a slant R40 or an R16 on the Brighton M. Whenever I saw a slant R40, it was always a B train, at least until the Skip-Stop Brighton era. Then I saw them all over BMT Southern Division.
R38's appeared once in a while on the D. Then for a real brief period, and I mean brief, GOH R38's and GOH R32GE's were assigned to the Q Brighton Express. Why, I don't know. I went to Cunningham JHS in Brooklyn during that period and used to ride the Q or D from Sheepshead Bay to Ave U or Kings Highway, whichever train came first. I was glad until the R68 took over and ruined it for me. I even hate the arrangement of the R68(A). Everytime I want to look out the front window hoping the train had a small cab up front, the full width cab always showed up. Ever since that happened, I lost the taste for Brighton trains. But low and behold, R40 has returned to the Q and I regained my happiness for the Brighton.
There was a flood and asbestos contamination on 8th Av., and they extended the Q to 207th and mixed both and and Q equipment (i didn;t see any 44's, though). I had just gotten off the bus from months in California, and was totally shocked when I got to Port Authority, and then had to walk over to 6th Av.
During that time, the "Q" received the R38s and R68s. The "A" were 100% R44s. The "C" were a couple of R10s, unrebuilt red R30s and only two R38s.
Some D trains had R32's even during the Skip-Stop days of the Brighton Line.
Only in it's first days. Most R32's in Brighton service in 1986/early 1987 ran on the "Q". The D was slant/modified R40's and R42's. These began disappearing in September 1986, replaced by R68's, and gone by New Year's Day.
I never saw a slant R40 or an R16 on the Brighton M.
R16's were plentiful on the M just prior to the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86.
R16's were plentiful on the M just prior to the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86.
I remember that peiod quite well. For a short period of time in 1986, I think the R16's were more prevelant on the M than the R27-30's! Was that also true for the J? I wasn't a J rider at the time.
On a sidenote:
I remember being in trains of perpendicular seating on the L in the early 80's (or very late 70's) when I was a kid. Were those the R16's? Or is it perhaps possible that I was actually on R9's, and don't even know it. I have an image in my head of being on a train at 1st Ave station, and it had perpendicular seating, because I was in one of the "window" seats. I wonder if they were R16's or R9's.
Most likely it was an R16. R9's were retired in the 70's.
Most likely it was an R16. R9's were retired in the 70's.
When were the R9's retired? It could have been the late 70's that this memory on the L was from. I was fairly young.
Well you did mention 80's. Didn't notice the early 70's posted there. I think R9's were retired between 1970-1975 but don't quote me on this. Selkirk will know more about them than I would. He's the King of the "Arnines".
Nah, I don't think it was before 1975. I was grasping at straws. If it was 1978 or even 1977 it may have been possible, but I was too young in 1975 for it to be a R9 in this memory.
The last R-9 ran in March 1977 I think, or sometime around then.
The R-1/9s made their last revenue trip on the J line (Jamaica Ave El) on March 31st, 1977.
--mark
Hmm, just a few months before the Jamaica el itself died.
Others have posted: R6s from the Queens line, Dec. '76. R9s from Eastern Division, Mar. '77.
R-1 began retiring in 1969; R-4 began retiring in 1970 and 1971; the rest of them (R-6, R-7, R-9) began retiring oldest first in 1974-75 and finished up in 1977.
wayne
The arrival of the R-42s was the beginning of the end for the R-1/9s.
There were R10's on the LL in 1980:
Wow, I guess I'll never know. I was fairly small.
Larry (aka Mr Redbird R33) posted a 1980 car assignment list a long time ago. From memory, I noticed the bulk of ENY's R16 cars assigned to the Canarsie line (80, IIRC). You could have been on one of those. At that time, they were the norm, not the exception.
The R10, a train that for most of its life is one that NY railfans could be proud of. Here in the darkest days of NY Transit is a sad sight indeed.
The R10 deserved better.
By 1986, R-16's were more common on the J than the M trains, I remember distinctly. They were all incorrectly signed with the orange "JJ". On occasion, the black "QJ" was even displayed!! Tony
Hardly. By the summer of 1986 the bulk of the R16's were on the M. An R16 on the J at this time was an unusual, but not impropable event. The M kept the R16's well into 1987 when they bit the dust. It was 1985 that saw the numbers of R16's on the J skyrocket. I'm assuming this was due to the R30's being overhauled. In fall 1985, the first red R30's appeared on the J, and as their numbers increased, r16 numbers decreased.
and it was during that time when the R32's ran over there for awhile...
I got lucky a few times with the R-68s on the Q and got a lead motor with the half cab facing out. Too bad we won't be seeing that anymore.:(
Yes, the R-32s took over base service on the D in December of 1967. I almost never saw any R-1/9s on the D afterwards, but then I was in the city on Saturdays. Rush hour was a different story.
My impression was that Brightliners made up 60% of the D fleet post-Chrystie, the rest R1/9s. Come 1969, with the arrival of the R42s, the percentage of R1/9s fell to about 10-20%. They were banished from the D by the end of 1972.
As I said, I was a Saturday commuter back then and very rarely went into the city on weekdays. Chances are the R-32s covered Saturday schedules just fine once they appeared on the D. I know that I hardly ever saw any R-1/9s on the D on Saturdays after 1968.
R1-9's were weekday only on the D back then. Weekend was R32.
QBrightliner et al:
I checked during the two-day hiatus wth long-time "experts" and ONLY Concourse equipment operates on the D when it was/is under "normal" route from 205 Street to Brighton Beach/Coney Island. Coney Island-assigned equipment was used on the old "South D" during the Manhattan Bridge closures of the 1980s, and continues today as the "Diamond Q."
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does the R32 equipment used on the F line now (both Phase 1 and Phase 2 cars) stored in the eastern area of CI count as CI cars, or as Jamaica cars?
Jamaica
4652 was seen at ENY Yard wearing a diamond-Q on its bulkhead. It may be on its way to CIY. Q and N riders, keep your eyes open.
Are those lottery numbers? Should I play 4652 in the Big4?
I'm looking out for R42's [hopefully but likely] coming on my Brighton.
We have some R40M's on the Q diamond (one, maybe two), and several (about 4 to 5) on the N line already. So where will the R40 slants go?
We currently have 2 R40M's on our Brighton. As for the slants, they might be used to provide extra service on these lines b/c that was the purpose for the R143, to expand the fleet slightly.
I don't think the CIY fleet is divided as tightly as you think it is. The N and diamond-Q run R-40's, of both the slant and the modified varieties. There's no saying exactly which cars, or exactly how many of each subtype, will be running on each line on any given day.
The R-40's are staying where they are. It's the R-32's and R-68's that are being bumped elsewhere.
So, Stillwell/CI yard are going to send the R68's to Pitkin? Last year I actually saw a very rare R68 A train at Hoyt St.
No, the R-68's are going to Concourse. (Not all of them! Just a few. The 212-car R-143 order is increasing the number of cars available to all B Division lines, except, I suppose, the Franklin shuttle, whose dedicated mini-fleet isn't being touched.)
I'd assume the influx of former eastern-division rolling stock into Coney Island will allow the transfer of some R68's to Trandudeland to increase their fleet and the numbers of spares.
im not thrilled about the r42s comning over to the Q line unless the windows get updated. the scratches on the windows look lousy. hope some update is done to them.
Nothing can be worse than the window scratches on the R68's though! So if the D returns to the Brighton after the MB reopens, I think you'll have more of a problem with the R68's!
YES, the scratchiti on the R68's are BAD! I have to go through it whenever I ride my Q. The heavy scratches on the windows makes it look foggy 24/7.
i saw the same thing yesterday,an R42 with the front rollsigns signed
for the diamond Q,(car#4652)hopefully the R42 will start to be spread
out to at least the Q and N.as for the 212 R143 order,that number does
not sound like alot to me,no dis to those cars,they are great subway cars(only thing is the sound it makes when the train starts to slow
down,makes ya want to cover your ears)but does the fleet have plenty
of cars to spread out?the number order makes it look for just the L
line and the weekend M.as for the R68,s going to the concoures yard,
that plenty more for the B and D line.
til next time
I took these a couple of months ago and finally got around to uploading them. It's a "virtual tour" of the Upper West Side light rail easement (as I like to call it, New York's newest abandoned subway line). Enjoy!
Geocities. Arrrrgh. "Quota of two bytes exceeded" ...
It's my fault. I got through five photos before it died on me.
But neighborhood residents should have priority.
Heh. Wouldn't be geochitties if the site worked. Hell, even the local outhouses over in Rensselaer county have more capacity. :)
Wow, great tour! I've snopoped arounf there, but I never ventured into the light rail easement. Heck, I didn't even know that's what it was! I just thought it was for another track or a service road or something. Thanks for putting that together. Really cool.
---Brian
(BTW, I am a local resident and all the photos worked for me. No 2MB limit.)
edited for spelling....
Wow, great tour! I've snooped around there, but I never ventured into the light rail easement. Heck, I didn't even know that's what it was! I just thought it was for another track or a service road or something. Thanks for putting that together. Really cool.
---Brian
(BTW, I am a local resident and all the photos worked for me. No 2MB limit.)
Nice!
That easement is only one track wide?
--Mark
That easement is only one track wide?
Certainly looks that way, especially on the panoramic view with the truck to give scale. But why on earth would anyone want to build a single-track light rail easement in New York.
It's 16' wide and almost straight, so given a narrow enough vehicle, it could be a two-track line. Then again, like I said, I doubt it will ever amount to more than a service road for Amtrak. I haven't seen the plans for the buildings south of 66 St, but assuming it follows the Empire Corridor, once Amtrak dips under West End Ave, there's nowhere for the light rail line to go, short of a ramp up to the street or a new tunnel under 11 Ave. OTOH, if the line were to curve to the west, I could see it running down the median of the West Side Highway.
3445
3592
3644
3659
3863
3890
1. What happened to these cares?
2a. Where are they now?
2b. When were they scrapped?
None are scrapped. See the other post I made for the ODD COUPLES LIST.
wayne
Pretty much all of them are still around. I think they all are mixed marriages. For example, I think that 3890 is married to 3383. I think 3863 is married to 3418.
Check post #446288
3445
3592
3644
3659
3863
3890
1. What happened to these cares?
2a. Where are they now?
2b. When were they scrapped?
3659 had a "sex change" and is now 3348. It's mated to 3549.
OK I am going to do it again, here is
THE ODD COUPLES LIST.
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
So to answer your question,
3445 is with 3468.
3592 is with 3469.
3644 is with 3621.
3659 is now 3348.
3863 is with 3418
and
3890 is with 3383.
Hope this helps
wayne
You are too kind.
Thank you
I think of it as The Felix and Oscar List.:)
Go to the rolling stock section of this site and click on the R32.
I just overheard on the radio that all SEPTA service between 30th Street Station and Suburban Station has been suspended due to downed catenary wires. A co-worker of mine says that Amtrak service is also affected. More details as I'm able to post them.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
It's a fine morning for shuttle buses. :0)
I think they're still only half-way done with the catenary replacement project.
SEPTA Regional Rail had delays yesterday because of a "suspicious" suitcase in a Center City station. All service was stopped for an hour during morning rush (according to radio traffic/transit reports). The suitcase was empty.
Brief report from KYW: Septa Regional Rails Shut Down for AM Rush
Yeah, I snapped a picture of one of the R1 Airport shuttle Neoplan Artic. I didn't know anyhthing was up while I was down there, I had some time and I would have been glad to go over and snap some pictures with my new (well, borrowed from Drexel for the day) Mavica. The four semi-passable shots that I did get today are on my Webshots page, they're the last four at the bottom.
I did like 6 ABC's Septa Regional Rail map that they just showed in conjunction with the story. According to them the R6 Cynwyd still crosses the Schuykil on the old PRR bridge that's falling onto 76, going to Ivy Ridge.
Amtrak wasn't affected, only SEPTA... but the problem continued through the evening rush hour because they weren't able to get all trains into position for the ride home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yesterday it was the bomb scare at Market East, so we only go as far as 30th st
Today, its the wires, all the trains on the way home were all
jacked up!
They tell you no R5 express to Thorndale, everybody piles on to the locals, what comes in? Express, now the mad dash to switch trains, more delays.....
Everyday its is something else with Septa.
The funny thing is me being in exile here in PA, I know more about how to get around then the people I work with who have lived here all there lives!
The women in front of me at work asks what are those green staircases
in front of our building at 19th & Market?
Will thay take me to Fern Rock, well yeah!
Not directly, but yeah!
Uggghhhh!
If it's the actual green staircases, and not the stone stairs or the clear entrance, then it will be QUITE a while before anyone gets near Fern Rock... the green staircases at 19th Street station are on the westbound side of the Subway-Surface tunnel, and you'd end up in Overbrook, Angora, Yeadon, Darby, or Eastwick (unless you caught on quickly and left at 30th Street) before you realized it.
At 3:30 PM KYW said that SEPTA rail service was back to normal except for the airport line, which was bustituted.
At 5:30 PM WRTI had a reporter at Market East who said the situation was chaotic, that SEPTA just asked passengers to be patient because their train would eventually show up.
hey guys just enjoying my cold vacation up hea in NY. buffalo is cold!!!!!! i took Amtrak's train 63 the maple leaf. amazing trip to get up here tho. we left penn station a hour late, and combined the maple leaf train 63 with the adirondack train 69!! train was not only super crowded, but we left penn station through line 1, went over the hell gate bridge and ended up in Chelle interlocking by New Rochelle. funny how im on vacation from Metro North Railroad, and they are all i am seeing! we went to New Rochelle and relayed back down the new haven and harlem lines. then we went around a loop onto the hudson line. its there i find out we are being pulled by a Acela painted Genesis 701. we made stops at yonkers, harmon and poughkeepsie. we then changed crews and locomotive at albany Rensslear. we got one of the 700 series phase III genesis locomotives to pull us the rest of the way as we made stops at schenectady, amsterdam, utica, rome, syracuse, buffalo depew, and all stops to toronto. anyone who was on the adirondack to montreal, had to transfer at albany to new equipment. i got on this train at 815am and didnt wind up getting off the train till 530pm. oh well. see you all when i get back! i will be taking the 855am out of depew, and i expect to reach penn by 5pm without delays hopefully
With the reopening of the 6th Avenue Tracks of the Manhattan Bridge and the completion of the Stillwell Avenure reconstruction i would like to offer my opinion on what service changes will take place in 2004.
This is only speculation on my part
B Line-Will operate between Stillwell Ave and 145th Street extended to Bedford Park Blvd rush hours daily except for midnight hours via West End and 6th Ave. B trains will skip DeKalb Avenue except for evenings and Sundays
D Line-Will operate between Stillwell Ave and 205th Street at all times via Brighton Local and 6th Ave. Express in Bronx peak direction only
F Line-Will operate between 179th Street/Jamaica and Stillwell Avenue at all times. Alternate trains terminate at Kings Highway rush hours via Culver,6th Ave,63rd Street and Queens Blvd with the following changes
1-F trains will make express stops between Continental Ave and 179th Street weekdays from 6AM to 8PM(See V Line for local service)
2-F trains will make express stops between Jay Street/Boro Hall and Church Avenue rush hours in both directions
3-Stillwell Ave trains will make express stios between Kings Highway and Church Ave peak direction rush hours while Kings Highway trains will make all stops
G Line-Will operate between Church Avenue and Court Square weekdays,extended to Continental Ave evenings and weekends and will terminate at Queens Plaza midnight hours (See R Line
M Line-will operate weekdays between Metroplitan Ave and Chambers Street weekdays 6AM to 9PM extended to Bay Parkway rush hours only
N Line-will operate between Stillwell Ave and Ditmars Blvd at all times via Sea Beach,4th Avenue Express,
1-weekdays 6AM to 9PM via Manhattan Bridge and Broadway Express skips DeKalb Ave
2-all other times via Manhattan Bridge making local stops on Broadway
Will Stop at DeKalb
Q Line-will operate weekdays 6AM to 9PM between Brighton Beach and 57th Street/7th Avenue via Brighton and Broadway Express and Manhattan Bridge
R Line-will operate at all times between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave via 4th Ave Local,Broadway Local and Queens Blvd
V Line-will operate between Continental Ave and Church Avenue Monday to Friday 6AM to 12AM via Queens Blvd Local.53rd Streer,6th Ave local. Extended from Continental Ave to 179th Street weekdays 6AM to 8PM making local stops
W Line-will operate between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street weekdays 6AM to 9PM making local stops via Broadway.
Thats my opinion and specualtion only.
Thank You
Cool ideas. But we need to tweek 'em a little bit.
1) Can't have both G and V trains terminating at Church Ave. A wiser move is to have G terminate at Church, have V train run to Kings Highway via local and F run express to/from Coney Island in a similar style to the Pelham Bay Park/Parkchester 6 trains. Less confusion over which F train is which.
2) M service weekdays should always have presence on BMT Southern Division. Chambers St would be a waste of a terminal for the M train. 9 Ave is a decent current terminal.
3) W run to Whitehall might work. I personaly would rid the W, but a vision just came to me. W can terminate at Brighton Beach via Brighton Express with the Q during rush hours. Not really crazy about Whitehall St as a southern terminal.
Other than that, all seems normal.
2) M service weekdays should always have presence on BMT Southern Division. Chambers St would be a waste of a terminal for the M train. 9 Ave is a decent current terminal.
I agree with that. Or at least I never get the idea of Chambers being the terminal. On the weekend, I guess it's okay (not that I agree with it), but when the J goes to Broad, the M should go at least to Broad also. By ending the M at Chambers, they would force the M riders bound for the Fulton transfer to have to get off and, if they are lucky they and only need the 4/5, they could get that at BB. For the rest of the M riders that are bound for either lower Manhattan, or a transfer for the 2/3, or the A/C, it is a major inconvenience. They then have to get off and wait for the J. It's bad enough that that Fulton transfer is not given on the weekends. M riders shouldn't have to put up with that during weekdays also.
Gentlemen,
I happen to agree with both of you that the M Line should not terminate at Chambers Street middays but the facts say different
1-There is very little ridership middays between Nassau Street Line stations and South Brooklyn.
2-When the M Line midday terminal was changed after the 1995 Manhattan Bridge emergency reconstruction there were very few complaints
3-Today even with the Grand Street/Brooklyn service suspended there is still low ridership on the M Line even as an alternative from Brooklyn to the Bowery which is a couple of blocks from Grand Street.
To continue M service from Nassau Street to the southern division i feel will not be a benefit to the TA.
Thank You
That doesn't stop the M from running to at least Broad Street, which was the point of my post.
South of Broad is questionable if it's necessary during the day, but I believe someone here said once that the MTA does not pay for the extension of the M from Broad to southern Brooklyn during the day, it is New York State funded.
I believe that Broad Street will not be able to handle the J and M trains turning middays.
But i am not 100% sure
Thank You
J and M train runs every 10 minutes during middays. J and Z rush hour trains are also 10 minutes apiece for 5 minute intervals.
If Flatbush Ave/IRT can barely handle two lines, so can Broad St with 12 TPH.
Yes, it can if Broad Street can handle J and Z turning during rush. then it can also handle J and M turning at midday. Except that M and Z are line from each other. And since Z doesn't operate during midday, i dont see there will be a problem terminating M at Broad.
As far as the ridership on the M are concern, True, it doesn't benefit TA. But, it still benefit the Brooklyn riders in terms of er Canal/Grand transfer point. I use M to commuter every morning, and I gotta be honest with you that the transfers to/from Canal is alot easier than from Grand Street. Here is my view on why it is much easier to transfer to/from Canal between Grand and there is a huge difference.
walking distance between Grand and Bowery is 2 1/2 block; 5 mins
walking distance between Grand and canal is 5 or 6 block; 15 mins depend on the crowds,
Transfer between and Grand and Canal by train (5 alternatives)
*Useless Shuttle bus, (not a good idea for morning rush hr commute because of a heavy traffic on the Hester and Canal)
*S to/from Broadway-lafayette s/b IRT 6 ( thats 2 stops in total)
*S to/from West 4 for n/b F to/from 34 for N R Q and W ( thats 3 stops in total)
*S to Broadway-lafayette for n/b F to/from 34 for N R Q and W (4 stops in total).
*J M to Canal is only ONE stop.
I believe that during peak rush periods there is a relay crew to switch the train at Broad Street.
At all other times the crews make the switch themselves.
By having two lines terminate at Broad Street you will have congestion especially if there is a delay in service along the line prior to trains arriving at Broad Street.
If you look at the history of Nassau Street Line operations especially prior to the 1967 opening of Chrystie Street connection you will see that only 1 route ever terminated at Broad Street.
BTW- The J and Z are considered one line. The two letters are to indicate the different service patterns because of the skip stop operation between Broadway/Myrtle and Jamaica Center
Thank You
The M in the south should basically be a 5tph peak direction special like the QB. asically, a new "Banker's Special. If they return it to the Brighton, it would simply be reverse from the Chrystie era service. But then this would make it impractical if they decided to send it back to 95th instead. Since it's one way, the trains would have to be run light there from somewhere. So if they do this, it could either stay on West End, or move to the Brighton. (or possibly Sea Beach, but they have never had additional service like that there.)
We also have to consider that the M provides local service along 4 Ave from Pacific to 36 Street. While the N and W run express, the R train is the only other local present here. And we all have had our experiences with the R train. The M train at least covers up local service during the week that the R train can't provide alone. Weekends are a different story.
The Rarely train need the help.
Rather, the Rarely "needs" the help
Can we just run the V from Continental to Bwy Jct?
Gives the Myrtle/Jamaica lines a direct route into Midtown
Bwy Jct on the BMT or the IND?
BMT.There is a connection from the IND to the BMT after Broadway-Lafayette that leads to Essex St on the J/M/Z.
Myself and others have suggested that a while back to give the Chrystie connection a purpose; not the KK which was a miserable failure. Of course, you would have to run 8 car trains of 60 footers in order for that to be possible. It could run via Broadway el local to Bway Junction and push the skip stop service to start at Bway rather than Myrtle Av to let the Z run express and the J [after Myrtle] & V makes all stops via Broadway. Z's would be expanded as well. Another possibility is to run the V to Metro Av to supplement with the M.
I like that idea. Earlier, we were so worried about improving service on the Culver that I forgot about the Chrystie St Cutoff. May be a wiser move too. Question is, can the Willy B handle the extra traffic?
If all the services [J,M,V & Z] could stay under 30tph combined, it could work.
Run the M Metropolitan Avenue To Pacific Street Midday, Nights and Weekends. Run Rush Hours Metropolitan Avenue To Stilwell Terminal.
Run The V Local All Times From 179th Street/Jamaica To Brighton Beach Via Brooklyn/Queens Crosstown.
Elimate G.
How would the V get from the Crosstown to the Brighton Line in Brooklyn?
Very carefully.:)
You mean Culver right?
And how is that possible for the V to get to the Brighton? You must mean the Culver.
Why can't the G and V terminate at Church Ave. The V currently terminates with the R at Continental Ave.
Thank You
Some concerns raised about the capacity to turn 2 lines at Church Ave. It's not built like Continental.
We're looking at a difference here between 71/Continental and Church Ave. Queens Blvd is a massive trunk line in comparison with the Culver/McDonald Ave Line. As I mentioned before, it would be better for the V to continue to Kings Highway providing local stops while the F operates express to Coney Island. I posted it this way because of the confusion that commuters tend to get as well as ignorance. Why have two F services when you only need one? From your point of view, you want a service pattern similar to the A train. Two services, two terminals, a lot of confused straphangers. With my proposal, passengers will know that V is local and terminates at Kings Highway and F trains run express to Coney Island. Culver Line riders will not want a carbon copy service like the A line. Unless the Diamond F is created, this service pattern of mine will prove more functional, and less confusion for our passengers. Check my earlier post of the proposed F Culver express. Same as the Bronx 6. Express in the morning to Manhattan, express to Coney Island in the evening.
G trains can chill at Church without interruption to F and V trains. G and V can run local to Bergen Street and the F can breeze by via express. I will also reopen Lower Bergen Street for transfers.
I think its a better idea to let V trains run to Kings Highway, for some reson I feel Church Av isn't a suitable terminal for the V; it would work for the G though. As Chris R27-R30 mentioned, Church Av and 71/Continental Av are two different environments and I think the V should continue rather than having F's [the express] have two different southern terminals and providing less service to those heading from/toward Coney Island to Church.
I have mentioned the very same thing. You must have read my earlier posts.
Would this mean that the F would be going express in Brooklyn between Church and Jay, with a stop at 7th Avenue? Or just between Smith/9 and Church with a stop at 7th Avenue (both possibilities including peak express service between Church and Kings Hwy. with at stop at 18 Avenue?) And would there be a problem with the first possibility, since that track appears to have been de-signaled just west of 4th Avenue to the end north of Bergen?
Hmmm, never knew about that. However the express F trains would go as follows:
All stops from Coney Island to Kings Hwy, 18 Ave, Church Ave, 7 Ave, Bergen St( if reopened), and Jay Street in the Uptown direction. Reverse when going Downtown. Peak Direction express service is between Kings Highway and Church Ave. V trains would cover Culver local service. G trains would start at Church Ave and run local with V trains to Bergen Street. This is the weekday operation.
Weekends, no V train. F train covers Culver and Park Slope local service with G train. G will continue to start at Church Ave.
The (F) should be local on Culver to Coney Island, and local (upper level) on the Smith-Bergen Section. People in this neighborhood want the same levels of service they have now and will object to a less frequent (V) service.
The (G) should remain local, and terminate at Church. The leads in and out of Church are long, with a long distance to the X-over which is why terminating two lines at Church becomes Problematic. That lower level line south of Church was intended once upon a daydream to run to Staten Island via Ft. Hamilton Parkway.
The (V) [or maybe (E) service] should run the lower level on the Smith-Bergen line, and express to Kings Highway. This is a new service and provides new capacity on the Culver. Nobody can object to this, for it reduces absolutly nothing. Because of the track arrangements at Kings Highway, it is impracticle to run the express trains into Coney Island while terminating the locals at Kings Highway. When the line was built the subway terminated at Kings, and the Elevated, with its lighter cars, which also ran the local tracks continued on to the Island.
I'd like to swap the (E) and the (V) service south of West 4th. The Flyovers are there, and this can be done without delaying trains. It gives Sixth Avenue (on the (V) train) access to downtown, which it now does not have.
Elias
I don't know how long the leads at Church are (never even been down there), but considering the fact that you have four tracks, that might make up for it. At Continental, you have two layup tracks that can hold two trains each, and long relays can be done on the yard lead. Unlike Continental, at Church you can cross directly from 5 to 6 both directions (wall to wall). Long relays or putting trains in front of another in the middle at Continental is for congestion. This has more holding capacity, but for just the G and V, you should not have so much congestion. In case there is, you can send a train to 18th Av. middle (assuming it is not being used for express service)
The V may not be as frequent as the F, but with the G running there too, you do have something you can take, and everybody might not mind changing if they are in a hurry. (especially if Bergen lower is open). The V would still be more frequent than every other F.
The problem with terminating the V at Kings Highway will be congestion especially during rush hours since you only have 3 tracks between Ditmas Ave and Kings Highway
In addition you have to remember that the F line has two zones.
1-Outer Zone between Stillwell and Kings Highway
2-Inner Zone between Kings Highway and Church Ave.
To help reduce travel time on the Outer Zone it will be benefical to run express service between Church Ave and Kings Highway while the local F to Kings Highway will be sufficent to operate between Church Ave and Kings Highway. This was the service pattern that operated from 1967 to the early 1990's.
By turning the V's at Church Avenue it will result in slightly reduced service at these stations
Ft Hamilton Parkway
15th St/Propsect Park
4th Avenue
Smith/9th Street
Carroll Street
but the benefit will be able to get a seat at these stations. I wonder how many passengers at these stations have to let trains pass in peak rush periods because its too crowded to get on.
In addition passengers at 7th Avenue and Bergen Street will see an increase in service.
By implementing these changes to my original plan you will have reduced crowding on the F and increased ridership on the V and making the V a two way line(two ways in peak rush service by carring peak loads in both directions. Today the V on carries in one direction.
Thank You
This is when the Bergen interlockings are rebuilt; I didn't know it appeared to be de-signaled in that area on the express tracks altough it is BLOCKED by the red lamps west of 4 Av.
Once the Bergen interlockings are done, it is said that the Culver express would return and runs from Jay St to Kings Hwy making stops at 7 Av, Church Av, 18 Av and Kings Highway. 1st possibility is OUT of the question for now, I mentioned it above.
1. I agree, that would be a waste when you think about it the V could run to Kings Highway. Also if someone is going past Kings Hwy, they would have to wait for the next F and therefore would add time to the commute.
2. 9 Av is a pretty good terminal but I think it should go back to the Brighton local, it looks out of place via 4 Av & West End.
3. I thought of running the W via West End express to/from Stillwell in the peak direction rush hours, other times it can terminate at Whitehall St. Brighton line doesn't need another express service.
Someone else just posted a better idea than the original and my Culver line proposals. While G service can still operate to Church, V trains should run over the Willy B to East NY or Metropolitan Ave via the Chrystie St Cutoff to Essex.
I like this plan better than what I or Barry had posted. Maybe Barry might like this one as well.
It was even mentioned to bring E trains to Church via the W 4 St connector. It would be better just to switch at Jay Street since F and V hold current local tracks at Bdwy-Lafayette.
Might work. Maybe not. But it sure beats shooting daggers at each other about the Culver-Park Slope service. But then again, these are our ideas and visions, which make SubTalk interesting and a whole lot of fun.
Bklyn :)
Exactly, all of this makes Subtalk fun 8-). I saw the plan to bringing E's to the Culver and I think it would be better to use the switches at W 4 St so it doesn't hold up A and C service at Jay but then again I don't really feel that idea.
On the BMT Broadway line:
Local trains run via the tunnel in the south and via 60th street in the North.
Express trains run via bridge in the South and (hopefully) via 63rd Street in the North.
This provides minimal delays for switching merging and interlocking.
Provinding that no trains terminate at 57th Street it is feasible as far as Broadway is concerned. How to handle the excess traffic in Queens is another intersting issue that extends beyond the parameters of 2004.
For South Brooklyn:
(D) Sixth Ave Exp : Brighton Local to Coney Island - All Times
(Q) Broadway Exp : Brighton Express to Brigton Beach - Day Times
(W) Broadway Exp : West End Local to Coney Island - All Times
(B) Sixth Ave Exp : West End Express to Bay Parkway - Day Times
(F) Sixth Ave Lcl : Culver Local to Coney Island - All Times
(E) Eighth Ave Lcl : Culver Express to Kings Highwya - Day Times
(E) Eighth Ave Lcl : Chambers Street - Night Times
(V) Sixth Ave Lcl : Chambers Street - Day Times
(G) Crosstown Local : Smith-Bergen Local to Church St. - All Times
(R) Broadway Local : Fourth Avenue Local to 95th St - All Times
(N) Broadway Local : 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach Line - Day Times
(N) Shuttle : 36 th St to Coney Island via Sea Beach - Night Times
(M) Nassau St Local : Fourth Avenue Local to 9th Avenue - Day Times
(M) Shuttle : Metropolitan to Myrtle - Night Times - Weekends.
Elias
Now that's a good service plan! It gives the heavily-used Broadway BMT the amount of weekend service that it deserves.
Here is why your changes will not be able to work
1-Too much switching at West 4th Street and this will create massive delays if a switch malfunctions
2-The Culver Line will not be able to handle both E and F line service between Ditmas Avenue and Kings Highway.
3-You have 5 services on the 4th Ave Line 3 express and 2 local routes. Signals will not be able to handle that much traffic and the congestion at DeKalb will be massive especially if one of the express trains stop at De Kalb
4-What happens to the B train when it does not go to Brooklyn?
5-Sea Beach Line carries more passengers than the West End and you give them a longer ride.
6-You have to look at the neighborhoods near the West End,Sea Beach and 4th Ave Line . At times you have no 6th Avenue service and all Broadway service when ridership patterns determine that 6th Avenue service is needeed ie: the Chinese community who need to get to Grand Street.
7-You do not utilize Grand Street and the Chrystie Street Link enough.
8-You have too much Broadway service nights and weekends when it is not needed
The TA trys to make thinks as easier as possible and to provide the service where people want to go. That is why there was such an uproar when Grand Street lost its Brooklyn connection.
Thats my opinion
Thank You
5-Sea Beach Line carries more passengers than the West End and you give them a longer ride.
Of the four lines to Coney Island, the Sea Beach has the lowest ridership.
David,
I would check that
Barry
I'm sure David has solid figures.
But NYCT was running both B and M trains on the West End in rush hour even before the close of the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. They have never (at least not since 1967) run 2 services that actually served the Sea Beach (the NX ran on the Sea Beach but skipped all the stations).
Do you think NYCT is so stupid that they would put nearly twice as much rush hour service on the line with fewer passengers?
>>>Do you think NYCT is so stupid that they would put nearly twice as much rush hour service on the line with fewer passengers? <<<
Uh, yes. The TAs stupidity knows no bounds. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The numbers have been posted here a few times.
I've also checked the 2000 fare registration counts.
The Sea Beach has the lowest ridership of the four.
He's right Barry, he posted the fare counts a while back and it showed the Sea Beach has the lowest ridership of the 4 lines to CI.
This is waht I anticipate for 2004
A-No Change
B-CI TO 145 or BPB, Mon-Fri 6 AM to 11 PM only, no weekend service, use W for Brooklyn, C for Manhattan, D for Bronx
C-Every other train to Far Rockaway to supplement A service only during rush hours.
D-Pre 7/22/01, no change
E-No change
F-Express Jay-Church both ways M-F 6 AM-8 PM, rush hours peak direction between Church-KH. All service to Coney Island or Ave X, rush hours in Queens, express to 179th st (use V for local Hillside branch service.)
G-Extended to Church Ave when F is express, and to 71/FH when v goes to 179th st, rush hours. Middays, LIC to Church. Eves and weekends, LIC to Smith 9th, nights Queens Plaza to Smith-9th
J/Z-Improve skip-stop to 6:45-8:30 AM and 4:30-630 PM, skip Bowery from now on.
L-No Change
M-Pre 4/27/86 service, reroute back to Brighton Line to CI via. local.
N-CI to Astoria, Express 59th Brooklyn-34th st Manht, skip Dekalb 6 AM-10 PM, all other times, stop at Dekalb, Manhattan Bridge all times except when R and W are shuttles in Brooklyn, via. rat hole.
Q-Pre 7/22/01, extend express to 10 PM, via Bridge to 57/7
W-CI to Astoria, express 36th St/Pacific to 34th st, skip Dekalb all times, shuttle service on West End line nights.
V-FH to Church Ave middays, extended to KH via. Culver local and to 179th st via. Hillside branch local rush hours.
Kool-D: At least you have put the Sea Beach back on the bridge where I strongly believes she belongs. I hope the TA feels the same way but I wonder just how many trains are going to go over the Manny B when all the work is completed and will there be enough room for all of them?
I said in earlier posts, that the N goes back over the bridge, not 24/7 but at least during the day. But I still have my fun (at your expense), cause IMO it's STILL the SLUM-BEACH line.
Since you went the distance on the letter lines, might as well throw in my input on things. Here's my anticipation for 2004.
A->same as today
B->back to pre 7/22/01
C->168 St-8 Av/CPW local-Fulton local-Rockaway Park or Lefferts Blvd
*All times except nights, late nights Broad Channel-B 116 St
D->back to pre 7/22/01
E->same as today
F->179 St-Hillside/QB express-63 St-6 Av local-Culver express-Stillwell Av
*Weekdays both directions via express Jay-Church, peak drection Church-Kings Hwy weekends via local; experss 71 Av-179 St weekdays
G->Church Av-Culver local-Crosstown local-QB local-71 Av
J->same as today
L->same as today
M->Stillwell Av-Brighton local-Montague-Nassau St-Willy-B-Broadway el local-Metro Av.
*Returns to Brighton line to allow W to run via West End plus looks out of place via 4 Av. Weekdays all day runs to Stillwell, weekends runs to Chambers, shuttle is SILLY to me, should be late nights only.
N->Stillwell Av-Sea Beach-4 Av express-Manny-B-Broadway express-60 St tube-Ditmars Blvd
*Runs all times except nights via bridge and express, skips Dekalb and stops at 49 St. Late nights all local stops.
Q->same as post 7/22/01 but seasonal weekend Brighton express should be considered.
R->same as today
V->179 St-Hillside/QB local-53 St-6 Av local-Culver local-Kings Hwy
*Weekdays runs from 179 St to Kings Highway via local, probably would make short turns for F's at Kings Hwy unnecessary. From 9pm-midnight and all day weekends runs from 179 St to 2 Av, late nights use the F.
W->Stillwell Av-West End express-4 Av express-Manny-B-Broadway local-60 St-Astoria
*Rush hours runs to Stillwell Av via West End express in the peak direction runs via 4 Av express, stops at Dekalb. Goes via bridge but switches at Prince OR runs via tunnel. Middays and weekends runs from Whitehall St to Ditmars Blvd/Astoria. B trains will run express via 4 Av all times except rush hours and stops at Dekalb.
Z->skips Bowery again, runs via middle track to Broadway Junction in the peak direction then skip stop service starts there and goes to/from Jamaica Center.
*Z runs during rush hours but has expanded service 6AM-9AM and from 4PM-8PM in both directions.
All shuttles except the Broad Channel shuttle, which will be combined by the C; remain the same.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
>>> 4-What happens to the B train when it does not go to Brooklyn? <<<
The answer to that question is easy: The B doesn't run. The W runs 24/7 and riders can transfer to the D for CPW. That's what they do now.
I like your plan, I think you have a solid service pattern here. The R should be a 24/7 local. Two potential problems with your plan... One problem that I can see, as pointed out by a fellow SubTalker (Chris R27-R30) to me is whether there is enough passengers on the Culver south of Church to justify running a local-express pattern. From Church Ave northward, there IS enough passenger to justify running an express. The other problem will be with the Hillside riders at the Hillside Local stations. Hillside local riders will riot over the fact that the V does not go express west of Continental; much like they did with the R several years ago when it ran to 179 as a local.
All in all, this is a good plan.
However, since it was the R that was local and doesn't run express at all, people really objected to it. If the R ran express at least via Broadway, then it MAY have changed the outcome.
Since the F and V BOTH run via 6 Av, if the V we're to serve 179 St, I think people would be more accepting of having F's running express plus people could cross the platfrom to catch the express if they choose to do so.
I don't know about that. Whether the Hillside Local is the R or V, Hillside Local station riders seem to get upset when the Hillside Local continues to go local through the Queens Blvd line. These riders don't want to bother with another transfer.
I think there should be at least three services on Broadway on the weekend. Broadway is a heavily-used subway line and having only the N and the R is not sufficient for weekend service. Ride Broadway now and see what I mean. Either the Q or the W should run on weekends, preferably the W. Four services are unnecessary on CPW, so the B doesn't need to run on weekends. The W can handle the West End Line nights and weekends.
It's all a matter of money.
As a frequent user of the BMT, I can say that 2 services on the weekend were sufficient when they ran properly spaced (which they often didn't), but 3 services are far far nicer.
Similarly, for tourists getting to W 81st, 1 local service is sufficient, but 2 are far nicer.
"As a frequent user of the BMT, I can say that 2 services on the weekend were sufficient when they ran properly spaced (which they often didn't), but 3 services are far far nicer."
TOO LOCAL SERVICES WAS NEVER SUFFICENT ON THE BROADWAY LINE! I DON'T CARE HOW YOU TRY TO SAY IT!
N BROADWAY LINE
B could always go back to 21 St Street and turn around like before on weekends if it runs
No, it can't because you have the F running through there 24/7 now.
There is some good in this here. At least with both B and W trains going to Coney Island(which might be unlikely), this might be a chance for the M train to return back to the Brighton Line. But in any event, which train will cover Stillwell, B or W? By 2004, one of these services might be bound for elimination(W most likely). Then again, one might terminate at 9 Ave or Bay Pkwy.
Off topic for a moment, I think this was the best post come up with yet.
Thanks Barry.
Bklyn
The W can cover Stillwell. The B can terminate at Bay Parkway. The W should stay, it can still be useful after the Manny B returns to full operation. Thanks.
I agree 100 percent!
N BROADWAY LINE
Thanks, I'm glad you agree.
Broadway serves heavily-touristed areas like Times, Herald and Union Squares as well as NYU and Soho. That is why it should have more weekend service. Most speculation here has late night/weekend service going back to pre-7/22/01 patterns. That is not acceptable.
remember the B didn't always run on CPW(8th Avenue) on weekends it went to 21 St Street sometimes, but yes the B could also be a shuttle on weekends at the very least and a shuttle at night as well.
True, the weekend B could made into a Brooklyn-only shuttle like the W originally was, but I think most West End riders would much rather not have to go back to switching to the N or R at 36th to get to Manhattan.
This is all assuming Bergen Lower gets Fixed,And Stillwell is complete.F would be Brooklyn Culver Local to Coney Island ,V Culver Express Peak direction Rush hours only to Kings Highway middle.Now the G instead of Smith 9 or Church ave where it would plug service why not use Ditmas Ave.The Turnout is there already ,All it would need is too replace the track and switch to old shuttle platform.Take down the Wind screen and BAM new terminal for the G without plugging service from F And V 's.Think it could work shouldnt be any complaints srvice is being increased people at Bergen and Caroll still have there infamous One seat Ride on an F and the V express will definatley clear up some room on those morning crushed loaded F's.
Can't turn trains at Ditmas from the old shuttle track, makes no sense. Church Ave best place to turn because of layup tracks fed from both express and local tracks. (Look at track map on this site - http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn3.gif)
Last night, I wrote a wonderful post on applying the NYC's system of identifying subway lines to other cities systems. However, several glitches messed me up. First, on the original draft, I previewed the message to check for typos. When I clicked "Back", the @#$%&*@ computer deleted it! I re-wrote the post, checked it and posted it when lo and behold, I posted the $%^*@%^ thing on the WRONG BOARD! [It ended up on BUS TALK]. Now I 'm going to try again. Fortunately, I printed the post, so all I have to do is copy from the original post. So without further delay, here we go........
APPLYING THE NYC SYSTEM OF IDENTIFYING LINES TO OTHER CITIES'
TRANSIT SYSTEMS [LONG POST]
Ever wonder how the NYC system of designating subway lines would work in other cities? Well, I took the liberty of using the system to designate lines in cities like Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Philly, San Francisco, and Washington, DC. Here are my examples:
ATLANTA:
The MARTA system has two routes with branches off each line, so the routing scheme would look like this:
North-South - 1 Doraville-Airport, 2 North Springs-Airport
East-West - 3 Indian Creek-Hamilton E Holmes, 4 King Memorial (Vine City late nights)-Bankhead .
BOSTON:
With the Green Line using letters (B, C, D, E), the other heavy rail lines would be assigned numbers like this:
Red Line - 1/Alewife-Ashmont, 2/Alewife-Braintree, M/Ashmont-Mattapan Trolley line
Blue Line - 3
Orange Line - 4
Silver Line Bus - 5 .
CHICAGO:
For years, the CTA used the AB skip-stop system. Lettering the routes would cause confusion, so numbers would be more pratical. For example:
Red Line - 1/Howard-95th and Dan Ryan
Blue Line - 2A/O'Hare-Forest Park, 2B/O'Hare-54th and Cermak
Green Line - 3A/Harlem-63rd and Ashland, 3B/Harlem-E.63rd and Cottage Grove
[Note: on the Blue and Green Lines, one branch had all "A" stations, and the other branch had all "B" stations.]
Brown Line - 4/Loop-Kimball [Ravenswood]
Orange Line - 5/Loop-Midway
Purple Line - 6/Linden-Howard, 6X/Linden-Loop Express [Evanston Exp]
Yellow Line - 7/Howard-Dempster [Skokie Swift]
PHILADELPHIA:
Since SEPTA uses route numbers on the Subway-Surface lines [10, 11, 13, 34, 36], and the Suburban Trolley lines [100-Norristown, 101-Media, 102-Sharon Hill], a question arises on what designator should be used on the Broad St and Market Frankford Lines? On the Regional Rail lines SEPTA uses the letter "R" and a number to identify the line. My suggestion is to use two letters "B" for Broad St, and "M" for the Market Frankford line. They would come out like this:
Broad St Lines - B1 Local, B2 Express, and B3 Ridge Spur to 8th and Market.
The Market Frankford line would use the "M" designator and retain the AB skip stop diring the rush hours, example "MA" and "MB".
[A historical note-during the PRT days, when they introduced the use of numbers to identify the trolley lines, the number 1 was reserved for the Market St Elevated. The "1" designator was never used until the late 80's when SEPTA used it to re-designate the Blvd. Ltd bus route. The reason was that the route operated on US rt 1 through the City.]
SAN FRANCISCO:
What a perfect blending of two different systems identifiers. BART would use A thru E, and the Muni Metro would use F thru N. Here`s the BART designators:
A-Richmond/Daly City
B-Fremont/Daly City
C-Pittsburg/Colma(Millbrae)
D-Dublin/Colma(Millbrae)
E-Richmond/Fremont
WASHINGTON, DC:
I would assign route designators according to the order of each lines' intial opening:
A- Red Line
B- Blue Line
C- Orange Line
D- Yellow Line
E- Green Line
In closing, do you know of any other city that could use the NYC system of identifying subway/light rail lines? Post your answers on the board, and let's have fun with this.
Thanks for your time
Mark DeLoatch
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
I suppose you could do the same with the Baltimore Light Rail--
A---Hunt Valley to Cromwell
B---Penn Station to BWI
In regards to the DC Metro, during Peak Hours, some trains on the Red Line operate between Grosvenor & Silver Spring, possibly a "diamond A" for that one.
Also, if the "Green Line Shortcut" was ever brought back, it couls be labeled as a "Diamond E".
Oh, and during major events downtown, i.e. the 4th of July, when they run trains directly from Gallery Place to Franconia (a combo of the Blue & Yellow Lines), it could be given a temporary designation of "S".
Having 20 or more different routes, using letters/numbers makes sense in New York. In other cities with smaller systems, a color code works just fine. Here in Chicago, there are seven rapid trainsit routes, and identifying them by color works as well as any other system would, and makes it easy to color code stations, maps, destination signs, etc.
-- Ed Sachs
current nomenclature seems to work--solution to non existent problem and in several cases the proposed signifiers are already in use within the system.
Denver's bus routes are numbered while the light rail system has letters and colors. Initially there was no color or letter code for light rail; since there was only one line, destination signs alone sufficed. Since last spring, the original route is now the D (Downtown) or Green Line while the new line to Union Station is the C (Central Platte Valley) or Orange Line. It has become common practice to refer to the two lines by letter only and not color.
BTW, A is reserved for a future line out to the airport while B is reserved for a future line to Boulder. Both lines are years away from becoming reality.
As a New York born puertorican, I read the spanish newspaper "El Vocero" on an everyday basis. Don't get me wrong, I happen to miss a few issues, but that won't stop me. Last year, I learned the Island of Puerto Rico will be opening up its own subway system. I can't give any application or comparison to the NYC subway yet because I don't have any knowledge of the routes yet. I saw pics of the trains that they will be operating, and they are kind of nice looking. Kind of reminds me of an R42. As soon as I get any more details, I'll post it here on SubTalk.
It's a nice idea.
But you gotta CHANGE the letters and numbers every 10 years or so just to keep the geese confused.
See, you could start with numbers, and then change to letters, then you could have double letters, and then you could take the double letters away again and replace them with diamonds, circles and squares.
You could also change the line colors every 5-10 years or so.
Then if your system expands enough, you run out of numbers and letters, and so you *have* to go back to the double letters again, but you certainly WOULD NOT want to do it the same way you did it last time, right?
Red, Yellow, Green, Blue and Orange lines are a good start, but whe you shave taupe, mauve, fucia, fiscus, and chartuse lines, that is where I draw the line, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, in DICKINSON, ND they have four or five of these handicapped busses. You call them, and they will come to your door to get you, and take you to where you want to go. There really are no routes as such, of course, but the vehicles do not have numbers on them. Oh no they DO NOT!
One has a Green Dinoasaur, one has a red apple, another has a yellow butterfly, and one has a blue star.
Lately these have been replaces with similar but smaller logos, with more solors on them, and more detail on them, but since I have only seen them in passing, I'm not sure what exactly they are supposed to represent any more. I think the green dionsayr is gone : (
Elias
If NYC subway lines used animals designations instead of letters or numbers... which line would get the dinosaur? Which station would be the dinosaur?
Oh thats easy! Chambers on the (J) is hands down the dinosaur!
Elias : )
Dinosaur ain't the word to describe Chambers St.
MARTA could use a numbering system. Believe it or not, there is no standard way of indentifying routes. I would arrange the MARTA route numbers by order which they opened and desingnate where the line terminates if it has multiple terminals depending on time of day:
1-Indian Creek - HE Holmes
2-Doraville - Airport
3C-Candler Park - Bankhead
3K-King Memorial - Bankhead
3V-Vine City - Bankhead
4A-North Springs - Airport
4L-North Springs - Lindbergh Center
Should it really be called the "NYC numbering system?" It's not unique to NYC. Paris, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, and many others have a numbering system, too.
"Should it really be called the "NYC numbering system?" It's not unique to NYC. Paris, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, and many others have a numbering system, too."
Budapest does too, thought it has only three lines (1, 2, and 3, amazingly). St Petersburg hasn't got letters or numbers but uses standard colors on the map for its four lines - I have no idea whether people actually call them "the red line" etc. Even when I've been there I probably won't know, since I don't speak Russian!
In London, names have always been used, but British James had a go a few months back at providing a fantasy letter/number system. The lines that have no branches (like the Victoria and Jubilee Lines) are o.k. as they are, but the complex ones - like the Northern Line and the District Line - can be confusing to visitors, as their different variants are not distinguished by the line names alone. "Northern One", Northern Two" etc., perhaps?
Hey Fytton, I have heard that London's Circle Line is a lot like my Sea Beach. Is that so, and if so, how? I've been told this a number of times and will make sure to ride it when I go to London. As far as the Frog and Kraut subways are concerned, I don't give a rat's ass for anything to do with those pathetic excuses for nations.
Intresting you mention Boston Mdlbigcat. Boston's Red line ran A-Ashmont & C-Quincy in the early 70's.
And on the Orange Line one of the ideas of the new ,at the time, Line to Oak Grove was the center track
from Community College to Wellington was to be an express track.
Hey Stevie, I've done this myself once or twice. I answered someone who didn't ask the question. You did that yourself. I never mentioned any of that. It had to be someone else. I was asking about the Circle Line of London's Underground.
The Circle Line is, as its name suggests, a ring railway making a circuitous run around the heart of London. For the most part, it shares trackage with other lines, namely the District and Metropolitan (not sure if Hammersmith is included). Both of these lines were built by cut-and-cover and in places run in open cuts the way the Sea Beach does. The Circle Line uses larger rolling stock, i. e. the same size stock as the District and Metropolitan Lines. One question I have is does the Circle Line run on the original 1863 portion?
One question I have is does the Circle Line run on the original 1863 portion?
Yes. The 1863 portion is from Paddington (Bishop's Road - ie the H&C Line station) to Farringdon. The Circle Line therefore runs on it from Praed St Junction to Farringdon.
Well, the Frogs have TGVs and the Krauts have maglev. Those are the fastest trains in the world (and that Shanghai maglev line is a Kraut project, btw. Go look it up!)
At this moment I could care less what they have. I just don't care for the Germans and French as this time. They are a couple of rotten, ungrateful nations. I wish the French would visit Normandy. There are 12,000 Americans buried in cemetaries in its vicinity. They gave their lives to free France when many of their own people willingly collaborated with the Nazis. And if the Germans aren't appreciative for ridding them of the Fascists that to be is ungratefulness personified. So their trains are of no interest to me because I despise those two nations.
I do not think that we were as altruistic as you say. Our aim was to annihilate the Nazi's. France just happened to be on the way to Berlin. It worked out well for the French, but where were we in 1940 at the fall of Paris?
Today, what do you think the French and Germans are hiding.? Maybe they have helped Iraq on their way to developing nuclear weapons?
"Hey Fytton, I have heard that London's Circle Line is a lot like my Sea Beach. Is that so, and if so, how?"
I don't see the resemblance, Fred. Looking at the pictures of the Sea Beach recently posted, it is an (originally) four-track open-cut line, passing through residential areas of Brooklyn. The Circle is a loop around central London (like the Chicago Loop, only bigger), it is mostly under ground though with a few open-air stations (e.g. Edgware Road, High Street Kensington), two tracks; but above all, it isn't really a line in its own right at all, since Circle Line trains run on the same tracks as other lines everywhere except at the two triangular junctions at Aldgate and Gloucester Road.
Maybe what people meant was that is underprivileged like the Sea Beach! Its services often seem to get cancelled, and it often gets delayed at all the various junctions it has to negotiate.
The line in London that, to my mind, does look like the Sea Beach (and the Brighton Beach line) is not an Undergraound line at all, but a national rail line and ironically it *is* part of the Brighton line! Between London Bridge and Croydon, ther is a quite straight surface four-track main line with express tracks in the middle and local side-platform stations on the outside. The expresses are the Thameslink Bedford-Brighton trains, which don't stop between London Bridge and East Croydon, and the locals are the London Bridge-West Croydon service run by South Central, which serves the eight intervening stations. Observation from Thameslink trains when I've been on my way to Gatwick Airport suggests the locals are quite well used, and the local side-platform stations are a bit scruffy, which perhaps resembles the Sea Beach!
Thank you sir for that info. Good to know when I visit England. At least I'm not angry at all Europeans. I love the Brits and have been there three times and every time was a good show. At least there is one country that will stand with us, and we reciprocate by supporting them in the Falklands War. I'd rather have Great Britain behind us than those damn French.
Hey Fred, it's "jolly good show", which is how I would describe The Bob and Fred Show.:)
You can also ask about the Ministry of Silly Walks while you're over there.
Is the Sea Beach underprivileged? I think they get good equipment compared to other lines. But in some ways they are. No express service though the tracks are there, and let's not forget the rat infested tunnel, when they could be cruising along a bridge high over the east river.
The Sea Beach is short changed in a few ways, but not all ways.
The thing I'd like would be if in London we had the Bakerloo Line as (1) and the Jubilee Line as (2), the theoretical possibility of a Bakerloo Line train to Stanmore would be (2). Kinda cool.
A sensible letter/number system would make the Southern Region much simpler too. Okay, I do kinda like the headcodes - 16 is obviously Effingham Junction via Epsom, 17 Dorking via Epsom, 18 Chessington South, 19 a train which only gets to Epsom or Leatherhead etc - but in reality just about no-one understands them.
What might be a good idea would be an Alpha-numeric system, with letters for the main lines followed by a number for a variant. There are enough letters there:
A - South Eastern (SE) Cannon St Fast
B - South Eastern (SE) Cannon St Slow
C - South Eastern (SE) Charing X Fast
D - South Eastern (SE) Charing X Slow
E - Brighton London Bridge Fast
F - Brighton London Bridge Slow
G - Chatham Victoria
H - Atlantic/Portsmouth London Bridge
J - Brighton Victoria Fast
K - Brighton Victoria Slow
L - South Western Fast
M - South Western Suburban
N - South Western Windsor
P - Blackfriars
For instance, H1 could be the London Bridge - Peckham Rye - Victoria service.
The difficulty with this kind of system would be the Kingston Loop - is it a Suburban Line or a Windsor Line?
Anyway, that's enough ramblings on the Southern Region...
First, on the original draft, I previewed the message to check for typos. When I clicked "Back", the @#$%&*@ computer deleted it! I re-wrote the post...
Next time that happens, what you can do is press the "forward" button to the preview page, then copy everything you wrote on the preview page and then press "back." Paste your stuff in the message box and correct your mistakes.
When riding northbound on the #6 approach Grand Central, if you look out the left side of the train, there is a ramp which looks like it runs up and left and then into a concrete wall.
Was this a track bed at some point in the past?
Was this another connector track to where the shuttle trains run? Might explain the reason for the home signal there since there is no switch.
Any info is appreciated...
Probable where the original IRT turned west on 42nd st.
You are correct. This was part of the original route of the IRT, as it existed between 1904 and 1918.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The original subway line in 1904 ran up from City Hall just before the Brooklyn bridge Station, up the Lexington Line to Grand Central, then turned left along the 42nd Street Shuttle route to Times Square, and then tuned uptown along the 1/2/3/9 line. That's all the subway was until I think 1918 or so, when they extended the Lexington Line north, and the West Side IRT south. At that point the portion of the line between Times Square and Grand Central became the shuttle route. The trackway you are talking about became severed. The original Grand Central station is not the one in use today, that one opened when the line was extended north. The shuttle Times Square station is the original TS station along the original route, and was amazingly a local station when it first opened.
Not amazing that Times Square was a local station. The original subway line had express stations at Brooklyn Bridge, 14th Street, Grand Central, 72nd Street, and 96th Street (Brooklyn Bridge and 96th Street were the terminal points).
A second express stop on 42nd Street would have been redundent.
When the "H" plan went into effect, and when the BMT lines went to Times Square, then it became an important station. Before then, there was nothing to transfer to there!
Times Square quickly became the most popular local station on the original line, so much so that a group of theater owners wanted the IRT to install switches near the station so that express trains could also stop there. It didn't happen. Get this: the mistake was almost repeated when the Dual Contracts were signed! Luckily, better sense prevailed and Times Square was made an express stop on newer lines.
On the original 1904, IRT; did they run express and local on weekends, or even during mid-days?
See:
Design and Construction of the "Diagonal" Station
-Dave
If you're talking about the turn, that was a track to the TS shuttle; it was the original route of the IRT when it first opened. It ran from City Hall, turned left on 42 St then north on the 7 Av line and ran to 145 St. As far as the turn to the shuttle tracks, I think the connection is still there but as you mentioned the concrete wall is there.
The ramp on west side going southbound is the one that is still used to transfer trains out of the shuttle line. Look out of the back of a redbird (ha!) or R-62 or though less recomended a R-142. You will clearly see the the tract that goes up to the shuttle.
Are you involved somehow with that site, or did you just select it for your handle because you like it? By the way, it is definitely a cool site!
Our host Dave has pointed you to your additional reading assignment.
Then you need to do a Field Trip to check out both ends of the Times Square Shuttle.
We want a full report, which will be graded ... enjoy.
You can view the movie of when the train followed the original route. Watch Part 2: 14 St. to 42 St.
Historic Films
Today, SEPTA's entire regional rail system was crippled by a few downed wires near 30th Street Station, which brings my current question up.
Which is better for a Commuter Rail System. For me, the only benefit to electrifcation is that you can operate in tunnels, so am I correct that Diesel is probably a better choice for commuter rail?.....(I'm sure someone at SEPTA might be thinking the same since at least some of their trains could have gotten past those wires today)
Electric (especially MU) provides greater acceleration. So, if you have many stops, it save time.
Diesels can run through tunnels with ventilation shafts. The Bergen Tunnels are a good example of them. The only issue that arises with using diesels is the concern of health. Suppose that diesels were not barred from Penn Station - NY; how much this would provide for an unhealthy and unpleasant environment. (Also "inspections" might not allow diesels into Penn anyway)
Diesels operate as electric loco's, but the only exception are MU's.
Electricity is better for commuter rail as it will not leave behind a big cloud of harmful fumes and to provide quieter trains. Diesels are more suitable for long-distance travel, since it is cheaper to use diesel than to set up long-distance electrification project(s). Diesel oil is more costly than regular fuel nowadays, so diesels have more dependence on the outside oil companies for support, while electricity can be generated by our own power plants.
Technically, diesels would be more versatile than electrics, since we need to ensure that the wires are protected from damage in any sort of way, and if there's a power outage, diesels would safely make it to the next station stop to provide haven for stranded passengers and still provide heat and A/C as necessary.
I personally don't mind which one as long as it provides adequate transportation.
To say that one propulsion mode (diesel vs. electric) is best for commuter rail is too simplistic. The specific physical characteristics, ridership patterns, station stopping patterns, and terminal locations all are factors that determine the best type of system. If a system has any of the following:
-Significant trackage in tunnels, particularly underwater;
-Siginficant outdoor trackage in densely populated urban areas;
-Heavy ridership, long trains, frequent stops;
-Quick equipment turnarounds;
then electric operation has the advantages of no smoke, less noise, fast acceleration and deceleration, and fast turnarounds. That's why commuter lines on the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit, SEPTA, and Illinois Central were converted to electric power in the first half of the 20th century.
There is also the question of electric locos vs. MU trains. The former have the advantage of being able to use the same coaches as diesel trains if both types of locos are used (NJ Transit being the best example). The disadvantage is that two locos may be needed for particularly heavy trains, and that total train length may be longer than an MU train with the same number of seats.
MUs have the advantages of fast acceleration and stopping, ideal on many heavy suburban lines with frequent stops. There is no loco needed to use up valuable train space. One disadvantage is that every MU car is legally considered a "locomotive" and must be inspected more frequently and more carefully than a nonpowered coach.
When all is said and done, each individual situation must be weighed on its own merits before any final decision is made. Once a propulsion decision is made the train operator is locked in for a long time.
You certainly want electric on a line with numerous trains per hour. Diesel will stink up the whole neighborhood if it's more than an occasional train.
The average electric locomotive in the US weighs 200,000 lbs, and puts out on the order of 5000 HP continuous, 7,000 for short timeoverload. The average diesel in the US weighs 300,000 lbs, puts out maybe 3000 hp, tops (this is real world HP, not the dreamy numbers quoted at the prime mover's shaft, which mean little because of the HEP and transmission losses).
You're on a train that's got 6 100,000 lb cars. Which do you think will get you there faster?
Or, if you want actual performance, figure that the average Silverliner weighs 115,000 lbs, and can reach 60mph in 40 seconds for the older models and less for the newer ones. Most diesels can't do that, period.
If a diesel dies, you're stuck. If an MU dies, you're still running.
The big advantage to electrics, especially in commuter service has nothing to do with tunnels, but rather that the acceleration of an electric is significantly better than a diesel, hands down. That means shorter schedules, faster trips, more passengers. You think SEPTA's slow as it is now, as a diesel system, it'd be a LOT slower. While a diesel is blowing smoke and struggling to get a train moving, and electric is already 1/2 way out of the station.
"The average diesel in the US weighs 300,000 lbs, puts out maybe 3000 hp, tops (this is real world HP, not the dreamy numbers quoted at the prime mover's shaft, which mean little because of the HEP and transmission losses)."
That would be true of any diesel locomotive anywhere, not just American ones. You're just showing bias, not providing anyone with the benefit of real expertise. Stick to what you know.
"The average electric locomotive in the US weighs 200,000 lbs, and puts out on the order of 5000 HP continuous, 7,000 for short timeoverload. "
Does that include the HHP-8 and the Acela's prime mover?
Overall, however, your point is correct. Electric locomotive power is better than diesel for providing a faster schedule; MUs are better than single locos in this regard.
You can still make your point if you stick to the facts.
That would be true of any diesel locomotive anywhere, not just American ones
Nope. Look at the recently ordered Class Rh 2016 for the Austrian railways, from Siemens. At 80 ton (metric), it offers an 'at the wheel rim' power of 1,600 Kw, with a 2000 Kw prime mover. In contrast, the DE 30 offers a 2300Kw (or 3000, they list both, I suspect this is either an uprate or a HEP difference) prime mover in a 128 ton (metric) package. That's significantly more weight for the power.
Both are AC traction, but the Austrian one gets more advanced IGBT, probbably because it's a more recent order.
European locomotives tend to be monobody construction, have lighter prime movers. US locomotives are almost always body-on-frame (the GE P-42 being an exception, interestingy, the body was designed by a European firm), have prime movers based on technology that are generally low speed , whereas European ones are higher rpm. Higher RPM requires lighter rotaing mass, which itself leads to lighter weight.
Most DMUs are diesel hydrualic (including CRC's prototype, which I haven't heard any of lately. I thought the design needed another pass through the optomizer, but at least they deserved credit for trying to market one on their own), DHs being lighter in this application. DH ios certainly a minority in heavy locomotives, though it's made it's mark in the world (and supposedly, the German imports the SP and others experimented with could outpull DC traction models of the era, as could Alco's prototye. The big trouble is that heat generation becomes a BIG issue at high power levels)
Does that include the HHP-8 and the Acela's prime mover?
the Acela's power cars weigh in at around 100 tons (US), the HHP-8 is closer to 110. The ALP-46 is about 100, as is the AEM-7 and it's AC rebuild.
The 'light' weight in passenger service means nothing - an ALP-46 nonethless exceeds an F-40's TE in all but the slowest (i.e. sub 10mph) starting conditions, and has a continuous rating that's around 60,000lbs at 40mph (57,000 assuming a 6100HP continous rating). Once you get above 15mph or so, HP is all that really matters. The more you have, the more you pull, the faster you accelerate.
That would be true of any diesel locomotive anywhere, not just American ones
"Nope. Look at the recently ordered Class Rh 2016 for the Austrian railways, from Siemens. At 80 ton (metric), it offers an 'at the wheel rim' power of 1,600 Kw, with a 2000 Kw prime mover. In contrast, the DE 30 offers a 2300Kw (or 3000, they list both, I suspect this is either an uprate or a HEP difference) prime mover in a 128 ton (metric) package. That's significantly more weight for the power. "
Your response is inappropriate. Compare the European diesel locomotive to its electric counterpart, and you'll see I am absolutely correct. Comparing a European diesel to an American diesel doesn't answer the question.
You and Stephen Baumann should get together. You have a lot of knowledge, but your allow your biases to interfere with your thought process - so while a lot of what you post is great stuff, some of it is BS - but you know that already.
With the IRT's Centennial Celebration a little more than a year and a half away, now would be the time to start working on repairs if we want to see this station ever open again, especially for the upcoming milestone. My question is, did 9/11 and the current budget crisis eliminate this possibility, or is there anything subtalkers can do about it? I am asking about this since many of us suggested to the Transit Museum in a "subtalk" letter about what to do for the anniversary, and of course City Hall was a big part of that. -Nick
(My question is, did 9/11 and the current budget crisis eliminate this possibility, or is there anything subtalkers can do about it?)
My guess is that if it does open it will be one day only, invitation only, with massive security.
The date of the anniversary also figures to be a negative factor against any public reopening of the facility -- just a week before the presidential, New York Senate (Schumer's seat) and House elections. The event is bound to be poltiicized one way or another mnre than if it was in May or December, for example, which means a high-security big media circus.
If the MTA actually bothers to mention people can ride the loop on the No. 6 train that day, they'll be doing more than I would expect them to do (I'm guessing Low Vs on the shuttle again, like in 1979, is more up the MTA's alley for a commemoration the public's allowed to participate in).
Security isn't any more of a problem than with City Hall itself. Just have people going to the subway museum go through the metal detectors already in place for City Hall. The museum would be as secure as the Mayor's office, and much more secure than the 6s turning around.
I'm afraid, like Larry said, they would have to be working on it by now if it was to be cleaned up for the anniversary. It's sad that the jewel station of the system, and such a historic station is probably going to be left to rot, and not be restored for the the subway's (and the station's 100th birthday).
I know Guiliani killed plans to annex the station to the museum long before 9/11, but 9/11 probably killed even grand plans for a public ceremony there too. If anything is to be done there, it will probably not be open to the general public.
I agree, Chris...it is sad that the MTA would let this station rot. Especially since it was declared a National Landmark years ago. -Nick
I'm afraid, like Larry said, they would have to be working on it by now if it was to be cleaned up for the anniversary. It's sad that the jewel station of the system, and such a historic station is probably going to be left to rot, and not be restored for the the subway's (and the station's 100th birthday).
I know Guiliani killed plans to annex the station to the museum long before 9/11, but 9/11 probably killed even grand plans for a public ceremony there too. If anything is to be done there, it will probably not be open to the general public.
To play devil's advocate, who is going to pay for all this?
$2 fare on the horizion does the MTA have money to restore the station?
Has there been any fund raising to get money to restore the station?
Good question, Lou. My guess is that the fundraising for this would have started awhile awhile ago if the Tranist Museum pushed for funding. -Nick
I'm sure we've all seen it done in the movies, but I didn't know if anyone's ever seen a 'rail car' that was actually produced. The last two pictures on this page show them, one a BMW and the other a Cadillac (road crews refer to R46's as Caddy's I think this puts a whole new spin on it).
http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/english/public_transport/odds_and_ends/car.html
Interesting... when I was in Smiths Falls, Ontario in the summer of '01 there was an inspection car there... don't remember now if it was a Chrysler or a Cadillac that had been modified for rail use. And in the days before hi-rail vehicles came into common use there were a number of trucks also modified for the purpose... the Southern Railway had a small fleet of Ford Falcon van (the predecessor to the Econoline) pickups with rail wheels that lasted into the early '80s.
I've also seen a picture of a DeSoto that was specially built for rail use... it was constructed from two 1948 (or thereabouts) DeSoto commercial sedans (long wheelbase, mainly used as taxis). The front sections of both sedans were grafted together, with red bulbs in the parking lamps to serve as taillights; the steering wheels and columns had been removed but otherwise the controls remained in place, and the vehicle could be operated from either end. The photo was accompanied by a diagram of the drivetrain; I'm not sure I can describe it with 100% accuracy, but it was a four wheel drive system, with a single engine at one end coupled to the original rear axles via an unusual, electrically-shifted gearbox (three speeds in each direction, but set up so you could only access three forward speeds and one reverse from the operating position) located in the middle of the vehicle. I don't remember the railroad... the pic was in a book on the history of Chrysler, not a train book, so it may not have even been mentioned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Off-topic, but I was amused to see the Messerschmidt KR 175 on the web page Goumba cited. I have actually ridden in one of those, as the "pillion" passenger - when I was young, one of my friends who had more money than sense bought one! I also remember seeing BMW Isettas arouund in England in the late 50s and early 60s.
There is now a new model two-seater tiny car in Europe - but it does at last have four wheels. It's called the Smart, and it is powered by a Mercedes engine, but I'm not sure what company actually makes it.
Smart is a DaimlerChrysler product.
In the US, we have the electric Ford TH!NK, although I haven't seen a single one on the road. There was even a pilot leasing program for LIRR and Metro North riders a year or two ago (does anyone know how, or if, that's going?). IMO, a fuel-efficient gasoline powered car like Smart would be more successful here; I wonder why it isn't marketed ;).
In the US, we have the electric Ford TH!NK ...
R.I.P., according to Car and Driver.
IMO, a fuel-efficient gasoline powered car like Smart would be more successful here; I wonder why it isn't marketed.
Doesn't pass the government crash tests. 10 mph into a parked car and you're dead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
R.I.P., according to Car and Driver.
Figures... I wonder what that means for the NYPA program, assuming it ever got off the ground. It was a 34-month lease.
Doesn't pass the government crash tests. 10 mph into a parked car and you're dead.
But wouldn't the same be true for the TH!NK?
But wouldn't the same be true for the TH!NK?
Apparently not. They've got airbags, 5 mph bumpers, and side impact beams.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't referring to the Smart in its European configuration specifically, but to any car with similar dimensions and the necessary safety features. If an electric car can have them, why not a gasoline-powered car?
It could, in theory. However, there is a market expectation in this country that a gasoline-powered vehicle will fit within a certain minimum performance spec (acceleration, top speed, range without refueling) that a micro-mini can't meet. The eco-freaks (for lack of a better term... their heart's in the right place) who are the primary customer for alternative fuel vehicles are willing to live with the limitations of a vehicle outside that performance envelope, while the vast majority of us aren't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I also remember seeing BMW Isettas arouund in England in the late 50s and early 60s. <<<
I actually took a test drive in one of the Isettas with the possibility of my foster mother buying it in 1957. We liked the economy, but the door on the front (and nothing else there) made it seem too risky to drive with all the big Detroit iron around. Even a minor frontal accident would probably trap the occupants inside with that design.
Tom
I bet alot of you have seen this commercial where a lady exits an R-type car, tries to buy a pretzel on the street, and re enters the same car at Bleecker Street. Anyone know what R-type is in this commerical and where was it filmed? I ask this because sometimes companies won't use the actual stations in filming movies, TV shows, commercials, etc. Thanks for reading.
Yeah, I've seen that ad like 4 or 5 times in the past day or so. I'd say that the car is an R68, it's got the seating arrangement of a 75 footer, but lacks the wood and stuff of the R44 and 46s. Plus the inside is so shiny, it could be nothing else.
As for where it is, sorry, no clue.
And I do believe she buys the pretzel, runs by and drops a buck fifty on the cart for the guy.
She does buy the pretzel. The train is most definitely an R68/68A. The station she gets back on at is marked as Bleeker St.
Peace,
ANDEE
...and I think it actually is Bleeker St.
Peace,
ANDEE
The car she is inside of is an R68/68A. The car shown pulling into the station is an R44/46.
It appeared to be an R68 on the inside. However, the stations appeard to be IRT (Bleeker St., although she could be going to B'way Lafayette) Also, she plunked down $1.50 for the pretzel, she did not pay her fare getting back in the subway. "Pay your fare!"
Baffled. Anyone know?
127.0.0.1 is the internet IP Address for localhost(the internal address for your computer. It is also referred to as a loopback address as any requests to this IP never leaves your machine.
Thanks
I use it to ping my nic before I have to go out and replace it.
It means the FBI is reading the contents of your hard drive NOW. You know all that bad stuff you downloaded? yeap, they know all about it now!
(ok, maybe not... it's really just what mambomta said - a server program running on your local computer)
It's not a server program, but a provision of the internet protocol for server programs. For example, if you do not have 127.0.0.1 set properly on your computer, you cannot run, for example, a web server or certain games that allow internet/local network connections, etc.
Internet Explorer won't run if the loopback doesn't work. It needs the loopback to resolve IP addresses (convert something.com to 123.145.167.189 (example). It connects to services.exe (win2000) on a very high port to access the DNS resolver. In programing it is so much easier to use the loopback to have programs talk to each other than it is to do IPC (inter process [program] communication), but it is a small security risk.
It means the FBI is reading the contents of your hard drive NOW. You know all that bad stuff you downloaded? yeap, they know all about it now!
(ok, maybe not... it's really just what mambomta said - a server program running on your local computer)
No no, localhost/127.0.0.1 is NOT a server program running on your computer. DOn't be spreading FUD when you don't know what you're talking about. LOcalhost is a *network interface* used by the computer to communicate locally. Mostly it's so you can write/run network-aware applications and still run them even when you're not connected to a network. Like if you wanted to have a copy of Apache running on your computer to develop websites and still use it even when you weren't online.
Forgive me if this has been mentioned before.
There is a new 4th card in the MetroCard Safety message series:
"Please use handrails on stairs and escalators. They're free.
"Going your way - the safe way"
You never know, they could be starting to charge for the usage as part of closing the budget deficit.
I never liked those new kind of cards, anyway. Yeah, they're cute and everything, but you have to admit: the MTA has one of the dumbest senses of humor I've ever seen.
but you have to admit: the MTA has one of the dumbest senses of humor I've ever seen.
Well, *I* thought it was funny!
: ) Elias
They play to their public.
Allan, Thanks for the input. I have the four Zagat cards & the other three Safety cards, so I have room for one more on the page < g >
For you completists, there are two variations of the "Hold onto your youth" card - one has darker hatching and a bold, slightly wider typeface when compared with the other cards (the more common variant, from what I've seen), and the second is the same style as the others.
Words to live by:
"Watch for oncoming traffic when exiting the bus."
I am posting the follow info that I placed on another board because I thought it might be of interest to members here...
To All Members of the Board,
Several weeks ago there was a thread about the New York Society of Model Engineers, and whether or not their Carlstadt NJ, O gauge model railroad had been vandalized some time in the past.
The NYSME was started in 1926 in Manhattan, and over the years has had several layouts in Manhattan, a huge layout in the Hoboken Ferry Terminal's Upper Concourse, and since 1955, their own building in Carlstadt New Jersey.
Their Carlstadt O gauge layout was indeed vandalized during the night of April 27, 1967. Damage was extensive, to the tune of $25,000. This $25,000. in damage was in1967 dollars. The destruction was mainly to the then recently completed elaborate catenary system, the hand laid switches and track, power supply and controls. There was no damage to the HO layout, club office, library or workshop.
Hal Carstens' book "150 Years of Train Models" reveals that the perpetrator was discovered to be a former member, but the club did not press charges. The saboteur was ordered by the courts to never come near NYSME property again.
NYSME survived this disaster, and had trains running within a year, using only their original outside third rail. They are still active today at their Carlstadt location. I don't know if they still use outside third rail, or whether they ever attempted to rebuild the extensive catenary system.
The July 1967 issue of "Railroad Model Craftsman" has a two page article about the sabotage, and includes six pictures of the destruction. There are also interesting articles about this club's history and layouts in "RMC" in Mar 1968, Apr 1968 & April 1976.
I want to thank Ron Antonelli, a New York model railroader historian, and Bruce Manson, "TCA Quarterly" Editor, for researching and ferreting out this information for me.
Karl B
1) That's not a long post. You gotta try harder.
2) Tell me more about the layout "in the Hoboken Ferry Terminal's Upper Concourse." It has been one of my life-long dreams to be able to walk up to the upper level there. I've been peering through those doors for 23 years now (from the train concourse), always wondering what is beyond that long ramp. I know the layout isn't up there any more, but do those articles in "RMC" have any photos of the layout at Hoboken Terminal, or do know of any photos of the upper area? Thanks.
---Brian
Brian, I'll tell what I remember, but don't forget that I was still a teenager the last time I was there, and that was more than 45 years ago.
It seemed that the NYSME had the end of the upper concourse closest to the ferry terminal. There were high wooden partition type walls installed across the concourse, and down along one side. This side allowed a corridor alongside the layout room. The partitions did have windows to see into the NYSME layout room which was approximately 60' wide by 150' long. The rest of the concourse was illuminated very dimly, and seemed totally unused. The weak lighting made the place seem very eerie.
The layout room was very brightly lit, and it was obvious that the layout was the point of interest in the room. The layout was 95'long by 35'wide, and was the biggest O gauge train layout I had seen. It was open benchwork design with lots of the unfinished benchwork still exposed. Track had been laid even in the unfinished areas, and trains operated over them.It was a work in progress. Construction was started in 1946, but I don't think there was a public exhibition until 1948. The public exhibitions were normally held in late January and February each year until 1956, which was their last at that location. Members apparently worked on the layout on Wednesday evenings and Saturday afternoons. The exhibition hours were only on Saturdays and Sundays. They disassembled the layouts, and moved out shortly after the exhibition closing in 1956.
They started work on a 20' by 12' HO layout in the early 1950's that was constructed just inside the entrancedoor to this big room. It was the first thing you saw as you entered, and was a very nice HO layout. It did pale by comparison to the massiveness of the O gauge layout.
I have a layout plan for the O gauge layout that is dated Feb 1950. I should think that there have to be pictures of this layout somewhere, perhaps in a Railroad Model Craftsman or a Model Railroader of that time period.
That's as much as I can tell you, hope it helps.
Karl B
Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.
---Brian
Thanks to the wonderous World Wide Web, We have an Official Website for the NYSME.
New York Society of Model Engineers
Check it out.
They still work in O and HO.
Screwed that one up.
Here's what it was supposed to say:
Thanks to the wonderous World Wide Web, We have an Official Website for the NYSME.
New York Society of Model Engineers
Check it out.
They still work in O and HO.
Are Empire Service trains still running to Grand Central or is the bridge in full revenue service?
I don't know what time the bridge re-opened, or will re-open, but Amtrack announced that Wednesday's trains will use it.
Amtrak press release
As this post indicates, not all of Amtrak's service on the Hudson Line was sent to GCT, though... some went out of NYP via the Hell Gate Bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today about 1:30 PM while waiting for a Manhattan Bound W or N train I noticed that the Astoria Bound trains were running express. Any reason for this? Also trains were running close together.
Emergency rail replacement at Broadway station. Returned to normal at 1518.
New doings on the website:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/index.html
They've made a bunch of decisions, apparently. Only took up to 8 months to get some of these documents online. The big one is downtown: the shared Nassau option is out in favor of a new tunnel under Water St., aligned to be able to be able to go to Brooklyn.
The Grand Street segment appears to be the last undecided issue:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_documents.htm - "Grand Street Station Options, June 2002"
Well so much for new life being brought in the future to the Nassau line, although it would give some subway access to the relatively "subway dead zone" around Water Street. Once again though the Nassau line gets shafted. Is the cheaper option really using the Water Street alignment rather than the existing Nassau extra capacity, and an already existing and underused connection to Brooklyn? It's got to be cheaper to extend the platforms at Canal, Chambers, Fulton and Broad (Bowery would not be necessary, as I feel if they used Nassau, it would come in between Bowery and Canal) to fit 10 car trains, than complete totally new construction under Water Street?
Nassau Line riders will have no direct easy transfer to the 2nd Ave subway under this plan either. This would be a good time to add Bowery to the Nassau transfer station list, and make all the Nassau line stations "transfer stations" (except Broad). The Bowery-Grand connection would be more needed than ever, and would give Nassau line riders a simple transfer, since their across the platform transfer at Canal and Chambers to the 2nd ave subway seems to be gone now that that the option of the 2nd Ave subway using the Nassau Line's extra capacity now seems to have been voted down.
Nassau Line's extra capacity now seems to have been voted down.
Nassau Street may have extra capacity, but Montegue certainly does not, least wise if they every got around to running the (RR) train at saturation levels.
Elias
It's not entirely clear from their opaque process why Montague was dropped. I guess we'll have to wait for the EIS documentation later this year.
I wonder why they didn't come up with a third service using the 63rd St bellmouths for a Queens to Downtown service.
The big one is downtown: the shared Nassau option is out in favor of a new tunnel under Water St., aligned to be able to be able to go to Brooklyn.
Yeah, that's what I've been hearing...
---Brian
If it's only going to be a two-track subway with one line operating south of 63rd St., then the Water Street option is actually the more practical in terms of serving riders in an area that currently has no subway station closer than Fulton and Wall Streets at Williams. However, ending the line at Hanover Square is bound to tick some people off -- it would make any future connection into the Montague St. tunnel easier, but it will leave riders with a nasty winter walk to South Ferry (unless they build an underground passageway from Hanover Square to the Whitehall St. N/R station).
At the same time, given the annoying habit Second Ave. subway construction has of running out of funds in mid-project, someone should at least draw up a contingency plan to hook the line into the Nassau Loop at Delancey. Having that option at least on the table could shave $1-$2 billion off the cost of construction, and at least get the line down to Broad and Wall streets if the usual financial problems crop up (and if the Forsyth tunnel option is used, the trains could probably turn west at Delancey and still platform at Bowery, from where a Bowery-Grand passageway could be built to permit the Second Ave.-Sixth Ave. connection).
When the first leg of the subway (125-63) is well underway, I'll start worrying about funding the second leg.
It is nice to see there is a firm plan now.
It's nice that they can build the line from 125th to 63rd and get it somewhere -- the Broadway express tracks in this case. My point was it would also be nice if they draw up a plan so that if the funds weren't completely there in the future, they could complete a 63rd-Delancey segment and still get the trains to the financial district and potentially onto Brooklyn, instead of just throwing up their hands, saying "oh well, there's noplace for it to go," and filling in any partially-built segments, like the 2nd-9th St. tunnel dug out on Second Ave. in the early 1970s.
I should have said that after figuring out Grand Street, the huge unknown is their financial plan. We'll know more later this year, I suppose. It should be interesting. Be ready for the P word (phasing).
The Stubway would have cost $4 billion or so. Full length is about 4x that. No wonder we haven't been hearing about any other projects, like LGA access. And they just pulled the plug on main line third track LIRR:
http://www.mta.info/lirr/procurement/current.htm
Bummer abut the third track.
Pulled the plug on the Third Track? Here we go.
Assuming ESA goes forward, the Stubway is the part that absolutely has to get done, just to break even on the number of passengers jammin on the Lex. Plus the Stubway is the operational winner for the TA. It takes trains that are dead ending at 57th, and provides lots of revenue service to the most densely populated part of the city with a relatively small increment in operating cost. In contrast, it would take a whole new set of trains -- and a whole new yard -- to go to Hanover Sq.
If they do go south, I think they should four track the line south of 42nd, with the express going from Grand Central direct to Lower Manhattan and, eventually, out to Brooklyn. Heck, there is enough room, I believe, for it to take over the shuttle and go right to Times Square. The express ride would make the SAS a superior option for suburbanites going Downtown, who would thus be more likely to support it, and pull even more people off the Lex. But if the express is going onto Brooklyn for a connection to the LIRR tracks (why would we need another tunnel down there otherwise), the local ought to hook into the Nassau Loop.
"In contrast, it would take a whole new set of trains -- and a whole new yard -- to go to Hanover Sq."
And if I read their construction costs brochure correctly, the bedrock in lower Manhattan is too low down, and they can't use tunnel boring even for a deep tunnel. Rather, they have to use some technique they don't seem to define (EPBM). I suspect that will be extremely expensive.
In contrast, the stubway is all tunnel boring, except for (relatively few) stations. This makes the stubway all the more likely to be the only part that gets built (and that's if we're lucky).
And if I read their construction costs brochure correctly, the bedrock in lower Manhattan is too low down, and they can't use tunnel boring even for a deep tunnel. Rather, they have to use some technique they don't seem to define (EPBM). I suspect that will be extremely expensive.
That is true. Actually, it makes sense too. "Water" street used to be at the shoreline, so anything east of water is on manmade fill, so basically that is why the bedrock is so low there. The subway would go through manmade fill.
In contrast, the stubway is all tunnel boring, except for (relatively few) stations. This makes the stubway all the more likely to be the only part that gets built (and that's if we're lucky).
This is why I favor the Nassau connection ortion. At least that has a chance of happening. The more expensive they make the project, the less likely it is to happen.
And if I read their construction costs brochure correctly, the bedrock in lower Manhattan is too low down, and they can't use tunnel boring even for a deep tunnel. Rather, they have to use some technique they don't seem to define (EPBM). I suspect that will be extremely expensive.
That is true. Actually, it makes sense too. "Water" street used to be at the shoreline, so anything east of water is on manmade fill, so basically that is why the bedrock is so low there. The subway would go through manmade fill.
In contrast, the stubway is all tunnel boring, except for (relatively few) stations. This makes the stubway all the more likely to be the only part that gets built (and that's if we're lucky).
This is why I favor the Nassau connection option. At least that has a chance of happening. The more expensive they make the project, the less likely it is to happen.
EPBM="Earth Pressure Balance Machine"
Here's a description of a tunnel project in Seattle using the technique (no cost info, though):
http://www.subterra-eng.com/Tunnels/Tunnel_Projects/Seattle/seattle.html
EPBM="Earth Pressure Balance Machine"
Thanks emathias. Nice job on the investigation.
If this technique isn't excessively expensive, then it could facilitate the excavation of subway tunnels where only elevated tracks were recommended, like Nostrand Avenue Line extension in southeastern Brooklyn.
Agreed, generally. The Stubway is also the section that, politically, has to get done first. But that's fine. Reduces the squabbling factor, especially now that 116th Street Station is on the approved list.
(Agreed, generally. The Stubway is also the section that, politically, has to get done first.)
I would say that there is no way that ESA should opening without the Stubway section opening at the same time. They both cost about the same, too. These two items, MetroNorth to Penn, and the Flushing Extension absolutely ought to happen.
"I would say that there is no way that ESA should opening without the Stubway section opening at the same time. They both cost about the same, too."
I agree with you, but getting them both to open at the same will be quite a challenge. East Side Access has a tunnel already dug from 2nd Av to the Sunnyside Yard; MTA is already digging connectio tunnels in the yard, and the contract to drill the new tunnel over to Park Av and under Park Av to GCT has been let. So it's got a head start on Second Av, which will not begin construction until 2nd half of 2004. By 2006, the ESA tunnel will be complete (though no tracks or power or signaling), and Second Av's Stubway tunnel (just the tunnel, nothing else) will be halfway home.
If MTA really pushes hard, then by 2010, ESA may be ready to open for business. If MTA takes full advantage of the already built 2nd Av segments in terms of construction schedule, Second Av "Stubway" might be ready too, but I doubt it. It'll open later.
Has anyone been able to figure out what the "EPBM" construction technique (to be used downtown for the deep option) is?
If it's ultra-expensive like cut and cover, the lower Manhattan part is going to get very hard to justify on a per-mile or per-passenger basis.
That's why I thought the Nassau connection would be the cheaper option, thus more likely to happen. I'm afraid that if they take the seemingly more expensive option of Water street deep tunneling that money will once again run out, and nothing will happen.
Did anyonme save the original documents that used to be
on the MTA website? It looks like they removed the ones dealing with
all the downtown options, now that they have decided on one..
In this week's Time Out New York (of all places), the following apears:
"By 2020 [apparently, this year was picked because it is part of an article on NYC in 2020], East Siders should also be enjoying the fruits of another major undergrouind labor: the Second Avenue subway line. According to Deputy Mayor Daniel Doctoroff, the project is in the midst of a $1 billion capital plan that ends in 2004. 'It's a long-term project,' he says. 'Over time, it will get done.' "
This is the first time I've heard anyone in Bloomberg's administration actually say "It will get done."
('Over time, it will get done.' " This is the first time I've heard anyone in Bloomberg's administration actually say "It will get done.")
Yeah, over the time from 2015 to 2020. Except that during that period, 120 percent of total tax collections will be going to fund social security, Medicare, Medicaid, public employee pensions, and debt service.
How many tracks? 2 or 4?
2
A few days ago, someone mentioned that the last 150 cars of the BOM r142 order would be renumbered into 1101-1250. Would this be going to the 3 line?
Nope the 4. The 3 will receive R62 1301-1625 from the 4. A few R62A will also be heading to the 4 and the Times Square Shuttle. The Shuttle will be based out of Jerome.
I disagree with this renumbering. It should be 1151-1300 so that there's no gap. Why the gap from 1251-1300?
#1606 4 Lexington Ave Express
And you know that to be 100% true? I say the 3 is gonna get those R142's while the 3's R62A single's go to the 7 and the R62's stay on the 4.
That was the plan at one point. The plan has changed. It could change back at any point, of course, but I believe the current plan is for the R-62's to go to the 3.
The R-62s that are on the 4 will be going to the 3 at any time now. There are NO R-142s going to the 3.
Or the 1 for that matter.
Thank goodness.
You make it sound like it's a very bad idea for the 3 to have R142's and the 1 as well.What's so bad about it?
Just expressing my distaste for the new rolling stock. I'm a West Sider. My home line is the 1, and I ride the 2 and 3 often as well. I'm glad that two of the three lines are staying with 80's equipment. That's all.
Have Lenox or Livonia Yards been upgraded to handle R142s? Meanwhile Jerome Yard has been upgraded to handle them, otherwise there wouldn't be any R142As running on the 4 now, would there?
Are there any plans for fantrips with the triplex soon? I mean ones like the steeplecab from last year. Is Bill Wall planning anything?
Yes, and yes. Stay tuned to this Bat Channel because when Spring is in the air you'll be able to sign up for one of these.
Hoping there will be another Triplex Fan Trip, and down the express tracks of my Sea Beach. If they do have one, please tell them to put a #4 on it instead of a #1. That was the only bummer on last year's trip. It felt strange booming down the tracks with a Brighton number on it, but other than that it was a hell of a day.
I don't think there are any other roll signs available with your favourite number, or the one that is already on the train doesn't move.
--Mark
Might N-O-T be D types this year ... that's all I can say.
P.S. Don't forget the Lo-V/Hi-V trip March 30th at the museum in CT.
Yeah! Can I sign up for 3/30? I want to operate the choo choo train!
-Stef
Stef,
All you are required to do is bring your current membership card
and the Charter Fee required of all previous members and RSVP.
;-) Sparky
"Might N-O-T be D types this year ... that's all I can say"
Really......Hmmm.....What makes you so sure of this?????
I love rumors.... Keep em coming.
So how are the three Standards doing in the shop?
--Mark
Very small crew working on them. Most of the structural work is done.
I believe two take power. So they still have some skin to re-attach on the outsides & then TLC on the insides.
For someone not involved with us at all, I must say a few things about your post. What makes you think there is a "wery small crew working on them"? And who says that "Two take power"? For those of you who don't know. I am DIRECTLY involved in car restoration. I am the ONLY person on this board who is involved with the car restoration. As usual.... rumor has this and rumor has that.
Now to answer the original question"
The cars are coming along nicely.
Mark, Sorry if my comments upset you. I was speaking from the prospective of someone who has seen the cars last Fall & spoken to some of the RPC staff, including yourself.
Over the past few years I watched the cars get moved within CI a couple of times & seen the structural & sheet metal work progress. I'm glad that your A-B-A set is inside and getting some TLC vs. 2775 which remains outside, at Branford, with just some stabalization work done.
I'm sure we all would appreciate a status report of them as well as the Lo-V four, 34 World's Fair car, etc. that RCP has here in NYC.
I think Mr. Wall could make something happen. Stay tuned....
-Stef
I don't know if this is becouse Wendays is my 30 birthday or becouse I that on the 28th would have been my farther 63 birthday, but I just realized what am I working for at the TA. When I took this job back in 1995 as a B/O I thought great I finally a got a job working with the TA.
As a kid I used to go to my farther post at City Hall and he put my and my brother on one of his buses for a round trip. I was the happest kid around. Then when he started work inside posted, I use to spend some night selling candy at the depot for my BS troops. I use to watch the buses pullin and go thought the washes, and sometime hope on with one of the drivers that know me and ride the bus thought the wash. These were the good old days. Even being around the buses all my life I still loved trains more then buses. I use to get out of school and take a ride somewere just for the hell of it. I started doing this in the third grade, mostly becouse my mother got me a school pass since the Shoolbus driver would alway leave me at home or even at school, since he was mad that I was added mid school year becouse of I change school. Well this is another story. Anyway this was the first time I saw an R10, up untill the I thought the C/R were only inside the train, and not controlling the door from the outside.
Well to make a long story short, I am going to be 30 and that means that I have 25 more years to go with the TA before I can retire. I already have 7+ years in. That means that I will have 32+ years at time I retire. The same amount of time my farther had when he retired Feburay of 2002. As most of you know he passed away in December of 2002. He was 62 years old, and spent most of his life with the TA, and what did he get, when he left the dopot gave him a party and a gold watch, and told him thanks for all the good years of service. I say he got a death sectence handed to him. He was just starting that best years of his lift and he dieds 10 mouths later. His was going to buy at traler and go traving around the states with my mother after she retired from her job early next year, but this is gone to.
I know when I retire I will only be 55, but then what am I going to do with my life. Am I going to keep working for the TA since it is the only jobs I have skill for. I am only a High School graduate, I tried going to collage, but I had to leave after 2+ years when I got the jobs with the TA. I tried to go back, but it did not work out becouse of the every changing hours of work. Right now I am just in so much termoil about what to do. I can't go back to collage now becouse of my promation from B/O to T/O 2+ years ago, so my hours are back to changing again. I can't retirer at 55 becouse of this.
When I took this job as a T/O my wife told me that I got my dream job, doing what I loved as a kid. Now I am not so shore.
I am sorry about just running on about this, but I just had to get it off my cheat. I know this might end up as a killfile to some of you hear at Subtalk so thanks anyway. Trains will always be in my as a hobby, but it's just a DEAD END jobs to me.
Robert
Don't feel bad. I am 21 with 2 years already. I only have another 34 to go!
I feel your pain. I've got 32 to go... sorry, but I'm glad I'm not the one with the longest time to retirement ;-)
I don't like you anymore.......lol
I thought I had it bad. Ive got 30 more years to go. But Pelham Bay dave got all three of us beat........
Da Beastmaster
I think your right! I'm 21 with 2 Yrs and 3 Months as a C/R.
I still have not figured this out too clearly but I want to retire by the time I hit 55 Years old which will give me about 37 Years of service god willing I make it that long.
As long as you stay away from that Chinese restaurant at Dyre, I think you'll be ok.
I got chicken with garlic sauce once there, and I don't think they cooked the chicken. Tasted kind of raw... :-\
It wasn't chicken!
Was it CATonese???
Peace,
ANDEE
A-ha. Meow. LOL.
You're a sick man, Rico....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, I don't think you was eating chicken :-0! I think you had a variation.........
I will never go there again. I don't eat Chinese as much as I use too. Its something I see my fellow co-workers bring up the Chinese food at Dyre and just the smell from the food could make me sick.
Try Japanese, Dave. Sushi is one of my favorites.
I have never got the nuts to eat Sushi.
Or guts. I'm sure I'd hurl it right back up. Yuck.
Definitely not the first choice of lunch when locked in a cab for four hours. But could pass for redbird food. :)
Thank goodness there's no towers near Drye cu I usually get some chicken thing some some chinese food place.
Also the one in Rock Park should be avoided. Their stuff wasn't that good. Didn't get sick but maybe I was lucky.
Your a TW/O?
Yep. Since November, before that a C/R.
Did you come off the Exam given in Nov of 2001? I took that exam and I'm on the TW/O List. I don't know if I will take it or not when they get around to calling me.
Yep, that's the one I took. They just took another class of 3 off that list that started Jan 21st or something like that. Don't know what number they're up to.. Give DCAS a call.
I don't know if I will take it or not when they get around to calling me.
Well if you want to get off the road I say go for it. But be warned it can be more hectic than C/R or boring, depending on where you are. Plus, unlike C/R where you can only go as high as ATD, from TW/O you can go to T/D.
Wow your pretty young for a C/R. Most of the C/Rs i see look like they are 30+ lol. You work the 6 right?
That was my mistake. I started as a TA cleaner then conductor at 19. I'm 36 now, starting again, but now with hell on wheels out of the picture have a chance to live until retirement. RAILROAD RETIREMENT. I should have left sooner.
It has come to my attention that NYC is on high alert due to the bleating of terrorists. What do you folks think that the MTA ought to do about this? The one subway attack that I know of involved sarin gas, and it was in Tokyo by a garden-variety doomsday cult (and only succeeded in killing about five people. Five folks too many, however.) Hollywood dreamed up terrorist attacks, and 9/11 wreaked havoac on the NYC subway, but the main target was the WTC, not the subway itself. There is a pre-9/11 Hollywood movie out there with agents running from a subway train, with the train being blown up and a car thrown across the platform. (The terrorists apparently had made a diversion in order to pull off a bank heist.) Ironically, the Twin Towers make a few appearances in the movie, as a "location indicator" or a landmark rather than as part of the stage. Any comments?
Ah that would be one of my favorites Die Hard With A Vengeance.
Before I worked for the TA I thought it was a cheap prop because the bottom of the car was flat. A trip to CIY in school car proved that theory wrong.
And every time I forget the solution to that water bottle riddle.
They weren't terrorists (not by the traditional sense of the word anyway). This was just an elaborate scheme to steal gold. And Simon just wanted revenge for his brother Peter's death and make a little money on the side. Something I'm sure all us whackos dream of. :) And the two good guys were not agents, one was an NYC Police officer and the other a poor civilian that happened to get caught up in all of it.
The alternate ending kicks @$$ IMHO.
Simon's brother was Hanz, not Peter. Remember the line from the movie:
"Peter Krieg was born Simon Peter Gruber. He was Hanz Gruber's brother."
Another similar TV movie was made in the same style( although not as good) starring David Hasselhoff as an NYPD Chopper Pilot. Forgot the name, but the routine with the Federal Reserve Bank was the same.
The"Mad Bomber" blew up an R-10 in the sixties, and, more recently a man called Edward O' Leary bombed a 4 train in December 1994. Terrorism is nothing new to the NYC subways, albeit not on the scale of today's would-be martyrs. As a soft target which a terrorist does not have to physically be in the system to hit, the subways are attractive to those rabid individuals whose wish is to kill people and break things.
But I still maintain that people, while being aleret and prepared, must not allow these vermin to disrupt our lives.
There is a limit to the number of people they can kill on the subway, because there is a limit to the quantity of poison or explosives that can be carried into the system. It is just an additional low-odds possibility that you will be killed (but high odds that someone would be killed).
They could contaminate it and tie the city up in knots for years, and there would be a risk of victim's families demanding that the entire system become a memorial.
Personally, I'm more concerned that a truck bomb will take down a building a-la-McVeigh. Not only do I believe that all the bridges should be EZ-Pass only tolled, but I also believe that only "trusted travelers" to use the airline proposal should be allowed to drive onto Manhattan Island (or Long Island) without an inspection.
Personally, I'm more concerned that a truck bomb will take down a building a-la-McVeigh. Not only do I believe that all the bridges should be EZ-Pass only tolled, but I also believe that only "trusted travelers" to use the airline proposal should be allowed to drive onto Manhattan Island (or Long Island) without an inspection.
I really didn't want to do this, but it looks like I have to repeat myself yet again. Just tell yourself the following:
There is nothing to fear.
The war on terorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
Good chance of that. The latest missive from OBL was audio only (which can be faked pretty easily). All others have been video, which does tell the minions that he's still leading the faithful.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed
Dismembered or leaderless and wandering.
I strongly suspect that the latest "Code Orange" is more postering by Shrub & Company.
Real question to be asked: Is Iraq this generation's Viet Nam?
Well, the French are screwing things up, just like they did in Dien Bien Pheu in the 1950s, so I guess there's that connection. But with them it's all about oil -- in this case the contracts that French companies like Total-Elf-Fina (one of the biggest gasoline retailers in Texas, BTW) have with the Iraqis that could go kersplat if there is regime change.
Other than that, I doubt you're going to see U.S. troops bogged down in the Iraqi rice paddies for 11 years or spraying Agent Orange all over the place to wipe out the dense Iraqi jungle and expose their hidden supply lines along the Saddam Hussein Trail through Syria and Jordan into southern Iraq.
Though I support President Bush as a political ally I do have some reservations about Iraq. I would wish there would be a clearer connection with that nation and Al Queda. There is a little but not enough to completely convince me. Nevertheless, the UN is showing itself more and more to be a replica of the old League of Nations of the 20's and 30's. It died out because it didn't have the guts to fulfill its mission. To me the UN will become passe if they don't follow up their resulutions. Saddam must disarm. They said it and we all know they have those weapons. They have hidden most of them and it will be difficult to find them, but they are already in violation of 1141 so the burden of proof is on them, not us.
Well, the U.S. does have to have an eventual "out" strategy, more precise than what Rumsfeld offered up in testimony on Thursday. But the Vietnam allegories miss the point -- the main danger to U.S. troops (outside of a sneak chem/bio attack) probably won't be during the war, but during the ensuing occupation, especially if we fail to develop a stable working government and are seen down the line as more of a hostile occupying force (some think that will happen from Day 1, but given Saddam's rep in the area, I doubt that).
It's also hard to believe the French are willing to scuttle the entire Security Council arrangement just so they can retain petrolium contracts in Iraq. Some would say the French position against a war is the more moral and correct one and the oil contracts are either seconday or completely irrevelant, while the cynics would say they're trying to prevent a major document drop on what they sold Saddam between 1991 and now if the U.S. forces get ahold of the Baghdad filing cabinets...
>>> Real question to be asked: Is Iraq this generation's Viet Nam? <<<
Or is it this generation's Czechoslovakia?
Tom
1. Some people are always frightened. For them there is always something to fear
2. It really wasnt a war.
3. there is no evidence saying that
4. That is not true
5. See 2
6. What is winning here???
I've always had a big problem with the "trusted travelers" concept, at least as far as it applies to vehicles crossing the borders. A large number of trucks are hijacked annually (even prior to 9/11) and doing so would be an easy avenue for "not nice" type individuals to sneak in. For a nation in "lockdown" one would think that a paper manifest filed ahead of time would be insufficient and yet that's the policy. :-\
What would the criteria be for a "trusted traveller"? Who decides the criteria? Am I less trustworthy because of my skin color, employer, political affiliations, travel patterns? Freedom to travel is an American tradition, and while securing our cities is a necessity, this must always be done within the framework of our open, free society. We ARE a less free country today than pre 9/11, because of what the terrorist maggots have caused our government to do, in response to their destructiveness.
Even in light of this, I hope we don't go TOO far in our security measures. Or, one day, like the movie "Firefox", we'll be asked for "Papers, please" just to ride the subway...
I'm surprised we aren't there already, truth be told. The terrorists wanted to take away our freedoms, our own elected obliged. Chronic underfunding of INS and other "admittance agencies" were the problem in the first place, but here we are. But if we're going to stop ANY vehicle for a check, then we should be checking them all. You're not going to spot the enemy in traditional garb, they've been instructed to "blend in" ...
And to think ... if only papers had been checked in Boston or Newark. And the way we've treated middle eastern people since 9/11 would certainly not encourage them to bang in things they've overheard from strangers in their midst. As a nation, we've really screwed things up. :(
Mind you now (as I pack my "Go-bag" and fit my kids for gas masks) I still think restricting our movements ain't gonna work. Look at Israel, the most secure nation on Earth, they're being hit every week. Vigilance does not mean lockdown. For example, if I were a terrorist maggot and I wanted to hit the subway at a critical junction. I could do that from the STREET, and unless the MP5-carrying ESU cops are right there on the corner, I'll achieve my objective. What I'm saying is that terror can only be stopped pre-emptively by good old-fashioned detective work. Some detective will know all the weasels, and one of them will tell him where to find the terrorists.
What couldn't we accomplish with a little common sense? The NYPD is doing a great job but the powers that be, our elected people, seem to be forgetting the Constitution, especially the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Tenth Amendments. When in the 1970s, the Weather Underground and FALN were blowing up places like the Mobil Building and ONE POLICE PLAZA (for crying out loud), it was dogged, determined work by the Detective Division that finally brought the perps to justice. Folks weren't losing their heads then. Granted 9/11 was a horror beyond belief, it still needs to be cooler heads to prevail.
If we are to continue on as a truly FREE society, we must first free ourselves from fear. Even if we are hit again, Americans need to recall that we are the country that twice in the last century, saved the whole world from the worst of the worst humanity had to contend with...
You'll find absolutely no disagreement here, and YES ... not only did I live through that period in NYC, I wasn't far away from a building on E 11 St that blew up when a lady with a bad attitude blew herself up. And through all that, the law of averages was STILL on everybody's side though it seemed something new blew up every other day.
I agree also that we've got folks just plain flipping out, and SHAME on the politicos for the way they're doing this. I wonder how many are going to die of asphyxia in their plastic and duct-taped "safe rooms". Then there's that rube up in Connecticut who wrapped his whole house. Geez.
Now they're telling us upstate that there's a terrorist in every woodpile. Be glad to make 'em a NICE ham sammich. :)
P.S. If you're a homeowner, you'll know that the American home is made to be porous, so the structure can "breathe" and withstand wind loads. Duct-taping the house would only work if you taped up the baseboards and outside where the floor meets the wall. Otherwise, why bother? To think they sold this QWAP to the American public. Sheesh!
That's what disappoints me the most about it all. You'd think for the stakes at play here, trashing like this of its credibility would be a no-no. So you tape up a basement and you've got an agent that SINKS in air, dead ... you tape up an upper room with an agent that rises, dead. Radiological? What's plastic going to do?
But what's the point of arguing with terrorists who hold press conferences? Don't mind me, but this one was SO over the top. Meanwhile, R40's are going to be leaking for want of proper "roofing material." :(
Backyard Bomb shelters a growth industry again! (Sorry, folks but you've gotta be over 35 to remember THOSE...
I was around for that. And very FEW of NYC's basement "shelters" were of much use with windows in them. Once we sell out the duct tape though, lead bricks will be the next growth industry. I *still* can't get over this little episode though. H.L Mencken said it all, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
How on EARTH did we as a people manage to survive the cold war? This is BOGUS by comparison ...
Once we sell out the duct tape though, lead bricks will be the next growth industry. I *still* can't get over this little episode though. H.L Mencken said it all, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
And today, you can't go broke by selling adult diapers, what with the way everyone's piddling their panties at the thought of the towel heads attacking.
Okay, my rant aside, I have to recognize the fact that these terrorist scares may be as much a media creation as reality. Yes, there are some people duct-taping their houses and all that, but they're probably few in number - but they get beaucoup media attention. Nobody I know seems particularly concerned.
To get things a little back on-topic, I suspect that some of these people who are now afraid to ride the subway - not to mention the fact that their numbers probably are inflated too - were always hesitant to ride, and now just have a rational-sounding basis for their fears. It's probably easy for us railfans to forget the fact that many people find the subway intimidating or even terrifying. And that's been the case for a long time.
Truly truly sad ... a single derailed freight train could overwhelm the worst of what these bastards could do to us, and yet nobody piddles when a freight train goes by their homes. How DID we survive the cold war? :(
Can't we just duct-tape CNN, Fozzy-bear nooze and NBC Nightly Nukes and just get on with our lives?
Lets get back to this freedom of movement idea, and back OT. This gets to the tolls idea as well. In the inner portion of NYC, you have freedom of movement, even without a motor vehicle. The vehicles would be restricted, but people would not be.
Similarly, I always say the bridges should be free. What? You want to bring 1 1/2 tons of metal with you? That's different!
Why impose tolls on vehicular traffic? Any revenue gained by tolling the East River crossings like the Manny B or Queensboro would be offset by commercial and fuel costs arising out of delays created by surface-street approaches to toll booths. Look at the nightmare that is Canal Street or the 7th Avenue South approaches to the Holland Tunnel. That's with NO toll, Jersey-bound. Imagine what Queens Plaza would be like with a toll booth under the El! These costs would erase any monies earned, as YOU would pay both the toll, and higher consumer goods prices, passed on to you by shippers and merchants.
When our local economy begins to suffer because of this, when businesses relocate outside of NYC to avoid the cost of shipping and travel, the tolls will be superfluous. The employees of these businesses, who probably rode to work on the subway, will be out of work, and those transit dollars will be lost, too. The tolls we DO have now aren't even supposed to be there!
In the 1960s, as author Robert Kaplan points out in his book, "The Airport", New Yorkers were promised toll abolition as soon as the Throgs Neck and Verrazano Bridges were paid for. Mr. Kaplan goes on to write "The bridges and tunnels are fully amortized many times over, the toll collectors earn bupkes, and maintenance is paid for out of taxes. Tolls are nothing but smiling, legalized highway robbery". 'Nuff said!
("The bridges and tunnels are fully amortized many times over, the toll collectors earn bupkes, and maintenance is paid for out of taxes. Tolls are nothing but smiling, legalized highway robbery". 'Nuff said! )
The value of the land occupied by vehicles, especially at peak hour, was never included in the calculation. Elsewhere, it is superfluous to argue about the allocation of costs according to who drives when, where and how much, because everyone drives everywhere all the time. Not so here.
>>Look at the nightmare that is Canal Street or the 7th Avenue South approaches to the Holland Tunnel. That's with NO toll, Jersey-bound. Imagine what Queens Plaza would be like with a toll booth under the El! <<
While I am not in favor of East River tolls, the toll proposals envision state-of-the-art electronic toll collection that would not require tollbooths. This would be similar to a system I used once in Melbourne, Australia, where people sign up for a "super-EZPass" which does not require slowing down at a toll gate. Instead, the transponder communicates with an overhead receiver as you whiz by at the speed limit. If someone tries to cheat, or just never got a pass, the license plate is photographed and the person is billed. Seems to work there.
"The bridges and tunnels are fully amortized many times over, the toll collectors earn bupkes, and maintenance is paid for out of taxes. Tolls are nothing but smiling, legalized highway robbery"
That may have been true once, but now the maintenance is paid from the tolls and enough is left over for a significant contribution by the MTA (which runs the toll bridges) to mass transit.
("The bridges and tunnels are fully amortized many times over, the toll collectors earn bupkes, and maintenance is paid for out of
taxes. Tolls are nothing but smiling, legalized highway robbery"
That may have been true once, but now the maintenance is paid from the tolls and enough is left over for a significant contribution
by the MTA (which runs the toll bridges) to mass transit.)
And that reminds me, the East River Bridges were built with tolls. The tolls were removed, and they were allowed to fall apart, since there was no money for maintenance. Now they have been rebuilt in place, at a cost of CAZILLIONS! The debt service on the money borrowed to rebuild our bridges is one of the things, along with Medicaid, pensions, and the homeless, that is breaking the city budget.
"the homeless, that is breaking the city budget"
There are two ironies in the homeless situation
1)On Average 10% of those applying for shelter are from other cities or states and heard of the overgenerous New York Policy. Thus we are importing homeless from other places. It wasn't until Bloomberg inquired that anyone thought this was a problem
2)The Homeless advocacy groups(who's cost of litigation could have built thousands of units of housing) forced the city to provide temporary apartments for homeless families that is competing with those looking for housing driving up the cost of housing causing more homelessness. Under the plan the city renovates the apartments up to code, including new apartments and pays $90 per night for the apartments (90 *30=$2700 for apartments renting previously for $500)
This removes any incentives for landlords to fix thier apartments. They rather them fall apart and get the tennants out and make a bigger payday.
Plus the lack of ability by the city to easily collect fines for housing code violations don't hurt either
One additioal note.
The homeless advocates are against want the city to continue to provide shelter indefinitly even for those who continulously refuse suitable housing or committ crimes against other homeless in the shelter system. After the nice renovated apartments many homeless families rather stay there for free then take an apartment less nice in an area that may not be anyones top choice. After all as the old saying goes, beggers can't be choosers. MAny homeless families(source ny post) refuse apartments due to location, not near there family etc. I hate to say it many people would be better of living across the river in jersey city, elizabeth, etc where rents are cheaper. Many white collar people who work in manhattan already due(not talking about the new apartment buildings on the waterfront)
The failure to expell those who don't want to be helped makes it hard for those families who truely need help finding a place they can afford to live not to mention pulling tax dollars away from other endevors.
On Average 10% of those applying for shelter are from other cities or states and heard of the overgenerous New York Policy. Thus we are importing homeless from other places. It wasn't until Bloomberg inquired that anyone thought this was a problem
Some places actually buy their bums free tickets to New York and other places. It's called busfare.
Why impose tolls on vehicular traffic? Any revenue gained by tolling the East River crossings like the Manny B or Queensboro would be offset by commercial and fuel costs arising out of delays created by surface-street approaches to toll booths. Look at the nightmare that is Canal Street or the 7th Avenue South approaches to the Holland Tunnel. That's with NO toll, Jersey-bound. Imagine what Queens Plaza would be like with a toll booth under the El! These costs would erase any monies earned, as YOU would pay both the toll, and higher consumer goods prices, passed on to you by shippers and merchants.
You've fallen behind the times. E-ZPass will take care of toll collection without the need for a single booth. Transponders are read at full highway speeds.
Impose a toll and traffic volumes will drop. Long lines are often signs of underpriced resources.
You make this point yourself. Why do you think traffic is so bad on Canal Street leading into the Holland Tunnel? Because that's the toll-free route from Brooklyn to New Jersey. If there were a toll, some of the traffic would seek alternate routes or not go at all, and those who are willing to pay would have a quicker trip.
When our local economy begins to suffer because of this, when businesses relocate outside of NYC to avoid the cost of shipping and travel, the tolls will be superfluous. The employees of these businesses, who probably rode to work on the subway, will be out of work, and those transit dollars will be lost, too. The tolls we DO have now aren't even supposed to be there!
The money has to be raised somehow. Would you prefer tolls or taxes? Which do you think would have a more detrimental effect on business? Which do you think would chase more residents out of the city? Most NYC households don't have cars.
In the 1960s, as author Robert Kaplan points out in his book, "The Airport", New Yorkers were promised toll abolition as soon as the Throgs Neck and Verrazano Bridges were paid for. Mr. Kaplan goes on to write "The bridges and tunnels are fully amortized many times over, the toll collectors earn bupkes, and maintenance is paid for out of taxes. Tolls are nothing but smiling, legalized highway robbery". 'Nuff said!
So who gets to pay for the maintenance of the bridges and their approaches? Who pays for the space your vehicle occupies? (Space is very valuable in NYC, as you know, especially on a bridge. That's why traffic is so bad.) Do you object to having to pay for the food you buy at the supermarket? Then what do you find objectionable about paying for a drive across a bridge? The only difference is that we all need food to survive but we don't all need to drive across the Brooklyn Bridge, and most of us don't.
Why do you think traffic is so bad on Canal Street leading into the Holland Tunnel? Because that's the toll-free route from Brooklyn to New Jersey.
Depending on where you're starting out in Brooklyn, and where you're heading to in New Jersey, the Holland Tunnel would still be the better route even if the Verrazano were free.
Of course. But the toll structure pumps much of the traffic that would be better off going through Staten Island into Manhattan instead. That doesn't make much sense.
You are abbsolutly correct. Truck traffic on call street would be reduced if the varazanno went to two way tolls as is the throgs neck and whitestone.
At half the cost some truck drivers would decide that it is worth the time saved to take the varazzano vs. the holland tunnel
The toll booths were never taken down brooklyn bound and with the advent of EZ-Pass the polution argument has been lessoned.
As for the elimination of all tolls on Triboro bridge and tunnel authority properties. If this would ever occur count on $3 subway and bus fare's. The majority of the money collected on these tolls goes to subsidise the MTA budget. If the MTA budget was cut years ago I bet MTA management would have been quicker to install cost saving twchnology
Depending on where you're starting out in Brooklyn, and where you're heading to in New Jersey, the Holland Tunnel would still be the better route even if the Verrazano were free.
Better for WHOM!
Keep that traffic out of Manhattan!
The only vehicles entering the CBD should be those vehicles as have business there.
Elias
Better route for the truck drivers silly
1) Close Brooklyn Bridge to all vehicles.
-----> Install LRVs across it.
-----> Use the rest of it for pedestrians and Busses.
2) Manhattan Bridge
-----> Trucks and Taxicabs only.
3) Williamsburg Bridge
-----> Busses, Trucks and Taxicabs only.
4) Brooklyn Battery Tunnel
-----> 0500 - 1200 $10.00 toll (presumes $5.00 one way)
-----> 1200 - 2000 $5.00 toll
-----> 2000 - 0500 No toll collected.
5) Queens Mid-Town Tunnel
-----> Same as Above.
7) Queensboro Bridge
-----> Busses, Trucks and Taxicabs only.
8) Triboro Bridge
-----> No Change
9) Henry Hudson Bridge
-----> No Change
10) Geo. Wash Bridge
-----> 0500 - 1200 - $16.00 Toll (Cars) - $50.00 Toll Trucks
-----> 1200 - 2000 - $ 8.00 Toll (Cars) - $20.00 Toll Trucks
-----> 2000 - 0500 - No Tolls Collected
11) Lincoln Tunnel
-----> 0500 - 1100 - Scheduled Busses Only
-----> 1100 - 1500 - $20.00 Toll Trucks Only
-----> 1500 - 2100 - Scheduled Busses Only
-----> 2100 - 0500 - No Tolls Collected - Trucks / Busses Only
12) Holand Tunnel
-----> Same as Above.
13) 58th Street Barrier
-----> Only Vehicles with proper permits permited to enter CBD.
-----> All privately owned cars must be registered to a residence in the CBD, and must own or lease an off-street parking place.
14) Broadway and Park Avenue are Closed to all traffic 60th Street to 23rd Street. New LRVs will operate in the CBD.
Local Busses (and LRVs) operataing in the CBD are free.
New Jersey keeps entire river-crossing tolls to build public infrastructure from their side of the river.
Elias
You think trucking firms and businesses are going to carry the expense of these tolls, or midnight delivery? FIFTY dollars to cross the GWB might clean up the Cross Bronx, but it'll also keep those trucks OUT of NYC, period. No business wants to pass on huge transport costs to the consumer, because he has a choice and WILL shop elsewhere. As for my car, I'll agree with you there's a traffic problem in Manhattan, and has been for about 15 years now. But $7 each day to/from Queens plus gas is the reason I leave my car at home now. I save $20 per week on commutation by using the bus/subway combo. The trip to work is twice as long as driving, but only half as expensive.
But, not everybody wants to make that trade-off. Plus, especially in Queens, subway rush-hour service is already at capacity now. Look at the Queens Blvd. lines. When tolls are implemented and people are forced off the bridge and into the subway, where are all the extra trains to carry them? Employers aren't about to stagger their hours just to accomodate transportation needs. You have to be at work when your job tells you, and that's IT. In NYC, for most folks, that's still 0900.
BTW has anyone noticed that if East River tolls are implemented, Manhattan will be the only county in New York State one must pay to enter? (Unless you come in on foot.) Yes, I've heard pols singing about putting tolls on the little Bronx bridges like Third Ave., too. The Daily News carried a piece about that a couple months ago.
You think trucking firms and businesses are going to carry the expense of these tolls, or midnight delivery?
Actually, yes I do. The toll already is $30.00 for a standard five axel truck, and there are already time of day discounts for those who use E-Z Pass.
Boosting it to $50.00 is a drop in the bucket on a freight bill already in the thousands of dollars. They will save that amount of money in fuel oil that they will not burn waiting to get anywhere near the crossing.
Many cross-country drivers run in pairs with a sleeper cab, and such trucks passing through from the USA to New England will be delighted to adjust their schedules to an hour when they know that they can get through without long delays AND save the price of the toll as well.
Will this help every truck. No, it will not. Will it help all of the traffic in general? Yes it will. You either build more crossings, or you use the crossings you have more efficiently.
And those who are local merchants who need to bring their trucks into Manhattan for deliveries and whatnot will already have an EZPass and its associated discounts and privliges.
I would foresee a consortium of truckers who will develop a central clearing office that will assign time slots for use of such resources as crossing times and curb time just like airliners schedule landing times and gate assignments. There are x-number of parking space on 37th Street between 6th and 7th Avenues, and so and so trucking has the 10 - 11 AM slot at the thrid space from the west on the south side of the street.
Hey FedEX and UPS move most of their freight at night, and only do delivery and pick-up during business hours. There is no reason why trucking intensive businesses cannot also do likewise.
Also... Containerized shipments and consigmentnts will speed up loading and unloading. Since parking time at a street corner is the EXPENSIVE component, drayage and turnaround times need to be kept to a minimum. Surely as subway phreaks we already know about scheduling and dwell times. Now apply the same ideas to trucks in the street. Hey, they ain't making jack if the truck is stopped!
Elias
You think trucking firms and businesses are going to carry the expense of these tolls, or midnight delivery? FIFTY dollars to cross the GWB might clean up the Cross Bronx, but it'll also keep those trucks OUT of NYC, period. No business wants to pass on huge transport costs to the consumer, because he has a choice and WILL shop elsewhere. As for my car, I'll agree with you there's a traffic problem in Manhattan, and has been for about 15 years now. But $7 each day to/from Queens plus gas is the reason I leave my car at home now. I save $20 per week on commutation by using the bus/subway combo. The trip to work is twice as long as driving, but only half as expensive.
I don't agree with the system Elias proposed, and a $50 truck toll is probably more than I'd consider appropriate. But I agree with his basic point, that we should not be freely giving away our precious and highly limited transportation resources. His solution is a mix of charges and bans. I don't think there should be bans as long as the charges are set properly.
But let me ask you a question. If you ran a shipping firm, would you prefer low tolls and heavy traffic or high tolls and light traffic? Remember, time is money. If tolls are set high enough to guarantee flowing traffic, I'm sure you'd be glad to pay them. (You might even join forces with the competition to pay for an alternative mode of transport that might be cheaper, like a new privately built and owned bridge or a new rail line into the city.)
Now, what is a proper charge? One that accounts for all the costs. I don't mean only construction and maintenance, though they're of course included. Space is a biggie -- with NYC rents as high as they are, I find it obscene that we give away space for free to anyone with a motor vehicle. I'm referring to both vehicles in motion and vehicles parked for free on the street. (If, like most NYC residents, I don't own a car, can I legally park my sofa on the street? Of course not -- if I don't have enough room in my apartment, I have to rent storage space. Why don't I have to rent storage space if I don't have enough room in my apartment for a car?) Pollution is another biggie, of both the air and the noise varieties -- the pollution around the bridges and tunnels, especially, decreases those areas' property values, and in general reduces the quality of life for anyone who lives, works, or plays in them. Delays to pedestrians. Pedestrian injuries. Traffic patrols. I could go on. These costs should all be paid for specifically by the people responsible for them.
But, not everybody wants to make that trade-off. Plus, especially in Queens, subway rush-hour service is already at capacity now. Look at the Queens Blvd. lines. When tolls are implemented and people are forced off the bridge and into the subway, where are all the extra trains to carry them? Employers aren't about to stagger their hours just to accomodate transportation needs. You have to be at work when your job tells you, and that's IT. In NYC, for most folks, that's still 0900.
In the morning rush, the subway carries the equivalent of over 100 freeway lanes into the city. One bridge or highway lane filled to capacity fills up about three subway trains per hour. Contrary to popular belief, subway service runs at well below capacity on most lines. Can 3 tph be added on Queens Boulevard? Sure, on the local -- and, IINM, F trains aren't filled to capacity, either. Adding trains to existing subway lines is cheap. Perhaps some new subway lines will be built -- expensive as that may be, it makes a lot more sense than building new bridges and expressways simply because a new subway line can (and will) carry so many more passengers. And the people who do need to drive (and are willing to pay the toll) will finally be able to get across the Queensboro Bridge without waiting forever in line.
BTW has anyone noticed that if East River tolls are implemented, Manhattan will be the only county in New York State one must pay to enter? (Unless you come in on foot.) Yes, I've heard pols singing about putting tolls on the little Bronx bridges like Third Ave., too. The Daily News carried a piece about that a couple months ago.
I hate to break it to you, but far more New Yorkers travel by foot than by car. So what if drivers have to pay to use a bridge? Somebody's paying to maintain that bridge, and if it's not drivers it's someone else.
Why should it be cheaper to drive across the Manhattan Bridge than to ride a subway the Manhattan Bridge?
Bloomberg's current plan is to toll only the East River bridges; I'm not sure where you heard otherwise. If the Harlem River bridges are tolled, there will still be toll-free auto access into Manhattan, for whatever it's worth, via Marble Hill (which is technically part of Manhattan even though it's on the mainland) and via Roosevelt Island (which is technically part of Manhattan even though it's only vehicular connection is to Queens). But I don't think toll-free auto access is worth much to a city in which a minority of households have access to a car (54% citywide and 78% in Manhattan). If the city's going to give something away, let it be something that all of its residents can make equal use of, like parks or libraries.
Thank You!
Of course my plan is a fantasy, though I think a good one. It does need to be refined and redefined by the people who will have to use it, rather than by some monk living in North Dakota. But there are some basic ideas there that need to be looked at. You can build more subway lines. You cannot build more streets. You can ration street space usig any number of schemes. Perhaps the best scheme (as far as trucks is concerned ~I'm thinking the Garment District ~at least until they can move all of those jobs to China) is to control parking spaces the way they control gates at an airline terminal.
Say a building has 100' of frontage, but it has maybe 20 tenants who want to ship and receive from the front door. Perhaps the tenants ought to get together with the landlord and *BUY* that parking space from the city. It is posted "Parking Reserved for xyz building", and then the tenants can schedule when whose trucks can stop there. Clearly it will behoove them to share trucks, and to use containerized loads that can be loaded and unloaded from the truck as quickly as from an airplane. It will also help prevent pilferage.
Maybe ABC Trucking will pick up all loads and take them to a center in Queens (or New Jersey) and there reload them into trucks for various destinations, rather than having all of those trucks come into manhattan individually.
What the $50.00 toll forces is this kind of cooperative thinking.
The subway fare is going up by what? 30% is it? Well the same 30% increase to the existing toll would bring it to $39.00 anyway, so my figure is not that unrealistic.
As for restricting access to the Tunnels in particular... 90% of the traffic entering the Lincoln during rush hour is already bus traffic.
Restrict it to bus traffic only and you make a little more space for busses, but you also eliminate congestion and confusion and decrease the transit time accordingly. Part of this of course will require the closing of the streets and avenues between the tunnel and the bus terminal, so that the parade of bus traffic is constant and unbroken.
Think Outside of the Box! Don't build a stronger Box!
Elias
Look at the nightmare that is Canal Street or the 7th Avenue South approaches to the Holland Tunnel. That's with NO toll, Jersey-bound.
On almost any Friday afternoon around 5, when I leave work, the intersection of Varick and West Houston, right by the 1/9 station, is completely gridlocked with Holland Tunnel traffic. And it's several blocks north of the tunnel.
"Look at the nightmare that is Canal Street or the 7th Avenue South approaches to the Holland Tunnel. That's with NO toll, Jersey-bound."
Part of the reason that the Holland Tunnel is so backed up is that the Varrazanno bridge charges a toll only in one direction, Staten Island bound which makes it far cheaper to take the holland(free outbound) then the varrazanno which I believe is something like $7 per axle per truck.
I believe the tolls on the east river bridges will have no toll plaza. They will utilize high speed EZ-Pass with non EZ-PASS holders charged via Cameras. NO TOLL PLAZA's Personally I have doughts about the system
I believe the tolls on the east river bridges will have no toll plaza. They will utilize high speed EZ-Pass with non EZ-PASS holders charged via Cameras. NO TOLL PLAZA's Personally I have doughts about the system
My question is - what do you do about tourists or occasional travelers who don't have Ez-Pass. When I travel by car to visit other cities - I look at a map and plot out my route. I don't investigate every single local toll collection system along the way before setting out. I assume CASH is ALWAYS welcome ;-)
My map of NYC shows the CBD as without roads. It shows where the huge park-n-ride facilities in New Jersey, Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and even in Westchester and Conneticut are.
It shows how to use the VNB to get to Brooklyn and Long Island,
It shows how to use the GWB and the BWB and TNB to get to Queens and Long Island,
and it shows how to use the Tappan Zee Bridge to get from Conneticut to place West of the Hudson.
It clearly states that there are no roads or parking places for vehicles in the CBD of Manhattan.
Elias
It clearly states that there are no roads or parking places for vehicles in the CBD of Manhattan.
Who makes that map? Last time I set out on a long distance trip I plotted my route by using Mapquest.com. For the sake of argument, I just plotted a trip from outside NYC to NYC using MapQuest - here are the results:
Quoting from MapQuest
14: Merge onto I-280 E via exit number 47A- on the left- toward THE ORANGES/NEWARK. 17.28 miles
15: Take the exit- exit number 16E- toward LINCOLN TUNNEL. 0.73 miles
16: Merge onto NEW JERSEY TURNPIKE N/I-95 N (Portions toll). 3.61 miles
17: Take the RT-3 exit- exit number 16E- toward LINCOLN TUNNEL. 0.60 miles
18: Merge onto I-495 E. 3.93 miles
19: Stay straight to go onto DYER AVE. 0.05 miles
20: Turn LEFT onto W 34TH ST. 1.34 miles
End Quote
Nowhere was I told there are no roads or parking places.
All mapping services, tourist bureaus, travel agencies, etc. throughout the country should be notified if NYC makes such drastic changes to its vehicular policies.
Well, I can't publish my map until all of the rule and other infrastructures are in place.
sheesh... wouldint be intersting if mapquest could tell people that it only takes ONE HOUR to go through one of those tunnels during rush hour.
Whay do they call the fool thing a rush hour anyway.... it ought to be called the Stop-and-Wait-an-Hour Hour.
:^) Elias
There *ARE* roads (sort of) in Manhattan but NEVER parking places. ;-)
First of all, I just repeated what the plan is. I am a bit sceptical about how it will work in production.
The plan is for camera's to take pictures of licence plates on all cars without EZ-Pass takes. Drivers without EZ-PASS will be chargered a higher toll then EZ-PASS subscribers
Apparently this high speed EZ-PASS system has been deployed sucessfully in other places
Option 1: Vehicles without E-ZPass will have their license plates photographed. A bill will arrive in the mail at the end of the month. This is the system used on Toronto's 407 ETR.
Option 2: Prominent signs approaching NYC from all directions will direct out-of-area motorists to E-ZPass customer service centers, where prepaid transponders will be available for rental on-the-spot. All vehicles in NYC will be required to have E-ZPass tags of one sort or another.
Option 3: Prominent signs approaching the currently toll-free East River bridges will direct all tagless traffic to the currently tolled crossings, which will retain their cash toll plazas.
(In practice, option 1 will have to be adopted in some fashion, since there won't be barriers to stop traffic without tags. There are already cameras at all of the E-ZPass facilities that don't have gates, which includes pretty much all of them except the MTA's.)
Option 1: Vehicles without E-ZPass will have their license plates photographed. A bill will arrive in the mail at the end of the month. This is the system used on Toronto's 407 ETR.
And I'm still waiting for my bill from when we used that road last July.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I take it nearly everyone is billed -- your license plate photo probably came out poorly or something. Better that almost everyone pays than that no one pays.
... your license plate photo probably came out poorly or something.
Quite possibly... it was raining heavily that day... or it could be that, as it is a US-registered vehicle, they don't have the necessary reciprocal agreements to obtain the registration information required to send the bill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Somehow, these wannabe terrorist are barking up the wrong tree. They are jealous just because of our way of life. We don't harass them, but they want to bully us. I can only hope that this madness ends and soon. Bad enough I can't enjoy riding my subway trains, but I'll be damned if they try to destroy it or wreck havoc. This is our home. We built it to better our lives, not for them to take it away from us.
I'm not afraid anymore!!!!
Dude welcome to reality ,its depressing and sad but enjoy the days you do work and remember a saying that helps me get thru it all.
IF YOU CANT BE THE MAN YOU CAN BE THE FATHER OF THE MAN.Dude Cherish the time you have now and spend time with family since your schedule on extra extra is fucked there is always something going on during our free time language classess ,or my personal favorite daytime races at Aqueduct.Walk around the city instead of just going under it.
I am not Extra Extra. I am able to pick jobs, but how they work out it's still hard to go back to school.
Robert
I'm confused. I thought you had a picked job, and that you left the extra extra list behind over a year ago.
You can go back to school. Since you have off at least two days a week, you can fit some classes in if you'd like. Some TA workers claim hardship and get the hours they want in order to attend classes. I plan on taking classes in the Fall if I can pick a job in the B division. I know a probationary C/R who got PM's so he could go to school in the morning.
Road extra work is hell. You don't know when to eat, sleep, wake-up, etc... In the A division, you can be on the garbage train until 7am the next day. At least the B division has "refuse relief" jobs to relieve the guy on the garbage train so he's not working all night.
Many TA workers don't live long enough to enjoy their retirement benefits. That's probably why they're so good. 50% pension! Wall Street wouldn't treat you that good.
It seems like you got the job at a very young age, and have little experience with the work world outside the TA. You have no idea how much better it is to work for the TA than other organizations. Trust me when I say that as hard as the TA can be to deal with, it's much better than the private sector.
Sometimes, I feel just like you about T/O being a dead end job. When I pull into Grand Central, and pick up all those young office workers, I really wish I could go back ten years in my life, and fix things so that I'm not doing what I do today. I have to remind myself that I'm probably making as much, if not more than they are, with a MUCH better retirement package, and much less demanding bosses.
You need to find some hobbies. Join a health club. Join a softball team. Start a website. You need to create goals and activities that extend beyond arriving at Rockaway Parkway on time.
As much as I love trains I decided years ago I could never work for the TA. They're way too anal an organization for my tastes. Heh, went as far as the physical and when they called me to be sworn in I told them thanks, but no thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
You have selected an honorable profession, as honorable as any other.
You can look at the T/O job as a beginning for other things.
1) Whenever the TA offers you training opportunities - take them. Find out what it takes to win a promotion. Your career can take you into supervision or even management - if you're willing to put in the time and effort.
2) My father worked a day job and went to school at night for years to get his degree - and he never stopped reading, learning, ever. There are plenty of opportunities for you to advance your education, and if you're doing it to further your career at the TA, there are folks at the TA who can show you how to go about doing so and still make it to work every day.
I see a fair amount of moaning and groaning about "dead-end" this and that. Don't believe it. It's straight bullshit.
But you must be willing to make the sacrifice andput in the hard effort to get it done. I have spent years of my life where 100+ hoours a week were devoted to work and study. Was it worth it? YES!
Promotions are done by the now rare promotional civil service test.
I think it was Baruch that the TA had an arrangement with to do certain certificate programs during the evening. Either hit 370 Jay (6th Floor, in their information kiosk you'll find the forms) or call Baruch. Be warned when I was down there theforms were out of date, but at least you'll know who to call for information.
The TA expanded it's management program. Now you can choose from a list of courses offered at many local colleges. And, if you have a BA, you can enter the Master's program and work only 30 hours a week while going to school. But you must be approved for the program.
Robert --
Try looking at the situation from a different angle. You have a job that you enjoy, with pretty good pay/benefits/retirement. You've also got reasonably good job security. As long as you actually like your job, you've got it pretty good.
Don't get hung up on going back to college now. The world has changed quite a bit in 25 years -- it will change a lot more in the next 25 years. Why get a college education now, when what you learn may not matter anymore when you need it 25 years from now?
Some of the other posters give some pretty good advice. Find some inexpensive hobbies that you enjoy and that keep you up to date on what's happening in the world.
Then Save. Don't count on Social Security because even if it's there, you won't be able to touch it until you're 68 or 70 or older. Don't even count on the TA Pension. If you save as though nobody else will help you, you'll have more than you need by the time you're 50 or 55. If you've saved enough by the time you're 50 you'll be able to make the choices of what you want to do at that point -- go to college, open a business, whatever.
Whatever you do, don't let it depress you. What happened to your father is a terrible shame, but it happens alot. You've got plenty of years ahead, make sure you enjoy them.
CG
What you will get over 25 years is 25 years of paycheck. A higher paycheck than most of those without a college degree (and some of those with one) earn these days.
As for the pension, recent surveys show that only half of those under age 45 will get anything other than social security, and (thanks to Bush) they may not even get that. And, of the other half, more than half do not get anything from their employer, just their own 401K contributions.
In other words, at retirement you will be better off than 75 percent of those your age, most of whom will almost certainly have to work until their health fails, and will then be impoverished. This is the analysis of an economist, backed by other economists, not the ranting of a lunatic. Maybe you can do better now. Many public employees can. But don't complain about retirement. The only "rich" public employee is an ex-public employee. All you have to do is stay in shape and live long enough to collect.
Robert, everyone stares this in the face at some point or other , the office workers, everyone. Hell, I TAUGHT college and I felt like it was a dead-end job.
Have another iron in the fire. Don't try to do college full-time, and don't take classes you don't like, but listen to what these guys are saying about TA rules on training and off-time and do it ONE CLASS AT A TIME. It's WAY more fun that way, and it keeps your hopes up. And you can meet some cool people.
Here's a little advice from the other end of trail.
I'm 50 something, in my third major job (15yrs at PanAm, 11 1/2 at Columbia Univ., 8 and counting at a bus depot).
My father didn't believe in college, so I did it the hard way, 14 yrs at night. There is a CUNY BS degree program, i.e. you have to go to the CUNY office on 5th Ave. vs. a specific school in the CUNY system.
It's very flexible, i.e. you can go to any of the CUNY schools; to a large extent take the courses that YOU want; & allows you to get credit for Life & Work experience ... cut some time off my path to a BS.
Hobby vs. work ... sounds like you want to share or play.
So consider modeling & joining a club where you can hang with some friends once a week, OR join a museum & share your knowledge while you get to do stuff the TA management & Local 100 won't let you do. One of my new friends at the TA is a car inspector, but got dirty doing track work one Sunday in November. This Spring I'm sure he'll be back to show us how to inspect some of our rt stuff, then we'll see what kind of an operator he is < g >
62 and out: You only come this way once, so don't wait for 55 or 62 or 65 to do the stuff you realy want to do. Do some of it NOW. You have a wife, find a way to include her ... you may have to go shopping as part of the railfan day, but maybe she'll buy something for you. One of my greatest joys is getting my kids to see how much fun I have at Branford. Last year Karen & her boyfriend got to operate a trolley & loved it. My grandson has been there numerious times, BUT the wife still doesn't like those "dirty old trains". I'm still working on that problem.
So, don't wait to enjoy life, then if the man calls your name, well you probably would have liked to stay a little longer, but be willing to accept your fate without a lot of would have, should have, could haves !
Hey SubBus ,and both started around the same age as C/R we never thought of it as deadend job There are always positions to be moved too.Like I personally wanted to go to the screw office ,or wanted really bad to be C/R on garbage train but that stopped ,or did you know up until he retired there was still one C/R left in the A division who could pick Money train C/R.But with hours and a family I did realize time is slipping thats why I enjoy things I do with family and friends much more than I should. There was an article I read somewhere in the system that said LIfe expectency is 74 years old but t/a workers Life expectency is 64.That was sad.
In my 15 years at Pan AM I changed jobs within a lot, because I could.
As a Teamster I followed the OT, in management I was on my up. In my last job I bought all their elect. stuff. Was a great place to work until the end. A bunch of us got Queensboro Community College to set up a satalite in our cargo building, made for a short commute to school. Even took bowling, golf & astronomy there ... field trips to local bowling alley, Flushing Meadow Pitch & Put & roof.
You sound depressed. Sounds like you're still mourning for your Dad.
Understandable. Get a thorough check-up, take a good look at your health and habits to try to make sure you will live a good, long life.
With all of the mistakes in your writing, I wonder if you are dyslexic
or just a product of a lousy school system. Your writing would keep you out of many jobs. You'd have to have a huge commitment to overcome that at your age. This may be a very good job for you with the skills you have. Do you know what else you might do with a degree? It's good to follow your dreams. I agree with others who say
that sometimes that can be good for a hobby, and keep your day job.
Work is just that...work. If you are looking for a "career," that is
different - still work, but with a goal other than the paycheck. I wish you luck. If you believe the job killed your Dad, I don't think
you will be happy working for the T.A. You will resent them too much.
Was it the job, or smoking, bad eating habits, neglecting his health in other ways? Look at the whole picture. But don't stay if it makes
you unhappy. Find something else. You only have one life. Try to make it a happy one as much as possible. Peace. Subway grrl
I am dyslexic, sorry I did not put that in. I have trouble putting words down on paper, but when I speek face to face I do alot better. As for my heath I just got back my most resent blood workup. Everything looks good. All I need to do is drop about 75-100lbs. Right now I have been 320 for about four years, so at least that has not gone up. I droped 75bls right before my weding, but went up over the first few year of marrage.
I am still mourning my Dad, I am so use to call him on the 28th to say Happy Birth Day. He had some health promblems, like heart and diabets, but his doctor just ran a full run of tests and every was good. His doctor was shocked as we were about him.
I don't regreat the job for his death, but it just seems that once you leave, most of the don't leave more then a few years. I like my job and hope to move up somedays.
Thank
Robert
Dear Robert,
With dyslexia, school is just so much harder, I know. I have had good
friends with it, and several of my friends' kids have it. Congratulations to you for getting where you are!
Meanwhile, consider your dad's death a warning to get your weight down. That can't be good for you, and would certainly put extra strain on your heart, could even lead to diabetes for you. You know your dad would want you to live a long time. Do it for you...but also for your new bride, and for him. It's something you have control over. Being active may lift your spirits.
I wish you all the best. As you see from these posts, everybody with a brain in their head does this kind of soul-searching sometimes. I think it's healthy to question, and not just fall into something and
stay there. You'll figure it out!
Subway grrl
Hey Rob. I don't think I know you. Very sorry about the loss of your father. I have heard too many stories of people retiring and then dying within a year or two. Breaks my heart to hear stories like that. At times I feel the same way (dead end job) but it doesn't last long. Started at 21 after graduating 4 years college. 11+ years later, I am now in my fifth title and for the most part I am happy but there are some days. I don't think I remember a single thing from college. Well, maybe that's not true but I was like a lot of others who enjoy trains and thought that TA is a dream job. Then your view of the job changes and now it is just a JOB. It happens. A friend of mine at TA has just gone back to school. Good luck with what you decide to do and I hope things work out. Hang in there.
I have heard too many stories of people retiring and then dying within a year or two.
The scary thing is a lot of the time you hear that it was cancer.
I have heard too many stories of people retiring and then dying within a year or two.
The scary thing is a lot of the time you hear that it was cancer.
We have to remember that anecdotes stick in our minds but don't prove anything. In other words, it may seem as if people tend to die shortly after retirement because the stories we hear when that happens are hard to forget. That does not mean, however, that these stories are particularly common.
Whether there's an actual statistical relationship between retirement and death, I wouldn't know. If there is such a relationship, in the sense that recent retirees are at a greater risk of death, it might very well result from the fact that some people retire because they know they're going to die soon. Naturally, those cases will skew the statistics.
Good argument and very true. I've just heard too many of them for me. Seems unfair for that to happen when it should be the time to start really enjoying life but as we all know, life is not fair. When its time.............
My dad died from cancer he was a C/R and a Towerman, I was dying to become a motorman for years, he talked me out of it he told me I should go to college, the reason was the dirt dealing with nasty passengers, and so forth, he worked for 37 years, he took ill with cancer right after he retired in 1986. he died after 7 months of only being retired, he used to tell me about all the trains he worked on the old EL cars, Composites, Lo V's and HI V's.So Robert college can be a good alternative, and take some computer courses also.
Robert,
I think you're just going through a bad time, and with events that come around this time of year for you, it makes you feel worse.
As guys around here have mentioned get a hobby it should help you.
Also, I see this around the TA and hope that you can avoid this, keep yourself with many friends outside of the TA. I look around me and see many C/R's and T/O's in their upper 50s and 60s because when they leave, all their friends are gone or still work for the TA, and they don't know what they'd do if they retire because no one would be around. This is the way I keep myself and hope you find the suggestion useful. Do it and I'm sure that once you retire you won't feel this way because not everyone you know is still at the TA. You're still young, and can easily get to know new people.
If you're not feeling the trains anymore, maybe move up to another position. TD or something like that. It will get you into something else. And I find from my experience in towers that TDs tend to hang out together more than road crews. So there's some new friends too (not outside the TA, but still good).
Sometimes I feel like you, having to travel 2+ hours each weay to the Bronx that its a dead end job and its consuming my time. Once the week's overwith I just go on, try to enjoy myself.
And we all have dead end jobs, so to speak. Just happens you have one of the cooler ones out there :)
Hopefully things will get better for you in the very near future, and you'll feel a lot better with things.
Kinda like the way I feel sometimes. I am fully vested in the pension which means 10 years (working at the same city agency for 16 years) in the pension. I no longer contribute to the pension but have 30 some years before I can retire.
.....(sigh)
spellchecker?
I uh....don' mean nothin' by it. it just seems.....
sorry. I'll shut up now.
No harm taken, as I posted with Subway Girl, I have dyslexica. I do use spellchecks if I do long posts most of the time, but last night I did not fell like coping and pasting it in to hear from Word Perfect.
Robert
Don't mind me, man. I been feeling "prickly". Where I'm at, the boiler done broke! So for the last couple of nights there hasn't been any heat or hot water. Real nice...this winter, when it's been so damn cold. Taking cold showers in a cold basement bathroom....oy gevalt!
Anyway, what am I, an English perfessor?? :>
Uh, I accidently re-posted that last missive. Sorry...it looks like I been scoldin' again!
.....(sigh)
spellchecker?
I uh....don' mean nothin' by it. it just seems.....
sorry. I'll shut up now.
We learned earlier yesterday (throught the media) that the City plans to close Falls Road next Tuesday for "water main work". The city never contacted us or sent an advisory to us. The
published detours effectively cut off access to us.
BSM Officers are already on the case, and contacting City officials about the closing.
Surprise, surprise!!!!
You gotta fight, for your right, to paaaaaaaaaaaaaaarty. And to keep your museum open I see.
---Brian
I forgot you guys run year-round?
I guess the city wouldn't allow you to install a sliding board from the North Ave bridge.
What about the water main? If it needs to be worked on, it needs to be worked on, whether or not they told you about it - which they should have done at the very least.
-Robert King
This is typical Baltimore City action: Close a street for scheduled major work, affect homes and businesses, but give no notice to those affected.
We are in contact with the City and should know by the weekend about adjustments.
Do you have any idea yet about what they're doing to the pipe, anyways? If they're closing an entire street, it has to be something pretty major.
I'm also wondering why it's being done in February. The middle of winter is hardly the best time for doing heavy construction. It also means that the water main's probably buried in frozen earth which is going to make things even more difficult for the work crew who have to go digging.
-Robert King
I vid capped this baby:
I hope you like it.
Take Pride,
Brian
Yeah, I remember catching that. Any idea where it is?
Probably the turn between Smith/9St abd Bergen St. No place else the G train goes outdoors.
Looks like the approach to Smith 9th Street station.
Brain,
YOU MADE MY DAY. Hey SBF, it ain't no N. It's a (G) for go,
not an (N) no go. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Could possibly be a G train leaving Smith-9 Sts and approaching Carroll St.
Nice shot of the G going on the Smith-9 turn.
From Wednesday's Post, California Rep. Jane Harmon, the No. 2 member of the House Intellegence Committee, has told her daughter not to ride the subways in New York.
A couple of things from the story:
1.) Of course she's a Democrat -- it's in the Post isn't it?
2.) On the other hand, the Post didn't even have to dig for this one -- Harmon blurted out her words of wisdon to her daughter on CNN
3.) As the ranking Democrat on the House Intellegence Committee, given the current political situation, she should have been smart enough to know any statement like that made on TV was going to be played up, even if as she went on to say she has not heard any credible threats from House intellegence briefings
4.) Wonder is Rep. Harmon rides WMATA?
I'm a Democrat, but Jane Harmon messed up this time. Somebody needs to remind her that Mayor Doomsberg rides the 6 EVERY DAY. I don't much care for how the mayor is doing his job, but he DID keep that one campaign promise.
JZB: What would you expect from one of her kind. They talk a good game but are as phony as a three dollar bill. We know her out here. She deserted her consitituents to run for governor and would drop them again on a dime if she could run for higher office. She is a dip-shit of the first order. Stop using party as a measuring device. If they like the subway they are A-OK, if they don't they aren't worth a damn in my book. That's my way of judging them. Good God, what's not to like about the New York Subway. I still get a big charge every time I come to New York and ride it.
House Intelligence??!!!
That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
House Intelligence??!!!
That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
Almost as bad as "military intelligence."
And Allan, if you knew about Jane Harman you would really know just what an oxymoron it is because Harman is simply a moron.
Two words describe Jane Harmon perfectly:
Dumb broad.
Gee Pete, I didn't know you knew this lady that well.
maybe she would trust the subway more if "Harmon" CBTC were installed.
STORY HERE
She probably has a bright future at NYCTA. 8-/
Peace,
ANDEE
All this for a possible 20 year stint in the klink. Some people never learn.
Bill "Newkirk"
True, not to mention a possible $300,000 fine and full restitution.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't know--I have mixed feelings. She shouldn't have been doing this stuff, but I would want to know how she got the "gifts." Did she channel the work from one company to another in exchange for the gifts? Were the gifts offered or were they demanded? Did she threaten any of the vendors that they wouldn't get NJT business if she didn't get the gifts? Did she receive cash?
Unless you could say "yes" to any/all of those questions, I would probably limit the punishment to dismissal and restitution, not jail time and fines. Why? Because a certain level of "gifting" (a small Xmas gift, lunch out every now and then (discussing business, of course ;-) ), maybe occasional sports tickets) are accepted in vendor/buyer situations in private industry. If company policy make this a no-no, the punishment is not criminal.
Just as I don't believe that a private business becoming a public one is cause to deprive workers of their rights (Taylor Law) neither should it make a civil wrong a criminal one.
"Unless you could say "yes" to any/all of those questions, I would probably limit the punishment to dismissal and restitution, not jail time and fines. Why? Because a certain level of "gifting" (a small Xmas gift, lunch out every now and then (discussing business, of course ;-) ), maybe occasional sports tickets) are accepted in vendor/buyer situations in private industry."
No, it's not. Your sense of ethics is obsolete, my man. Yes, it does hapen, but it's not OK> Defense contractors now have very strict rules which are handed outr at the beginning of employment (I used to work for one) and they are, by and large, enforced. And in government, there is and should be a trust regarding our taxpayer's money.
"If company policy make this a no-no, the punishment is not criminal."
With government contracting, yes it is, and should be. It's fraud perpetrated on all of us.
You need to brush up on your ethics. I sincerely hope you don't work in government. Milan is a crook, and if you actually think it's OK, then you might be one too in that situation.
My company has guidelines regarding what Paul speaks of. They do allow the occasional lunch, event ticket, etc., so, it is an accepted practice in private industry.
Peace,
ANDEE
I get the feeling that you didn't get the substance of the post. I don't think what she did is "right." I was talking about the artificial practice of making a civil wrong a criminal wrong simply because the government takes over what is essentialy a private business. NJT is not a defense contractor, nor is it government in the usual sense, nor is it police or fire.
It is curious how our elected officials get substantial honoraria while working on our time, or accumulate huge war chests that they can convert to private use after they leave office, but you would jail someone for eating lunch. The average $2,000 a year she got is an accounting error for our ruling class.
Judging my personal ethics by my expression of a sense of proportionality is, to say the least, dicey. Some people think that ethics is how you view other's practices. I say it's how you conduct your own affairs, and I can look anyone in the eye.
"I get the feeling that you didn't get the substance of the post. I don't think what she did is "right." I was talking about the artificial practice of making a civil wrong a criminal wrong simply because the government takes over what is essentialy a private business."
That's where you're wrong. You're expressing a "cop-out." Kick-backs are not merely "gifts." They constitute bribery and corruption, and where taxpayer money is involved, that is a major crime deserving a stretch in the slammer.
"NJT is not a defense contractor, nor is it government in the usual sense, nor is it police or fire."
I used defense contracting as an example of an industry that has a code of ethics to prevent the theft of taxpayer money (yes, Paul, it is theft, which is a crime, for which you can and should be locked up). It is but one example. Your distinctions are at best, semantic chicanery.
Paul Castellanos and the Gotti brothers used convenient distinctions to justify lots of things.
You shoulda been a lawyer, Ron.
That's what my dad always said...
But, as you know, the grass is always greener on the other side.
My perfect fantasy career:
Monday - lawyer
Tues - doctor
Wed - electrical or computer engineer
Thu - Army general or senior police commander
Fri - Subway T/O or LIRR train engineer
Sat - Boardgame tournament referee
Sun - ??
Diety.
LOL!
>>> If company policy make this a no-no, the punishment is not criminal. <<<
Taking kickbacks in private employment is criminal also. Most companies do not want to take the time of executives testifying and bad publicity from being involved in a criminal case, so they do not pursue that path. They frequently will just fire an employee who embezzles money or steals merchandise without criminal prosecution for the same reason.
Tom
As usual, these things are a matter of definition. Though the article says "Kickback Scheme" the things they describe: "meals, hotel stays, tickets" are not usually kickbacks per se. A kickback is usually a portion of the proceeds of a contract, often a percentage--i.e., "You know your $10,000 bid? I'll see to it you get it at $11,000, and $1,000 goes back to me." OTOH, why do you think there are so many expensive corporate boxes at major sports stadia? To entertain clients you want to influence. It may be morally repugnant, even unethical, but it is rarely criminal.
However I note a word in the article I missed the first time (I note it in boldface):
The indictment charges that between February 1996 and July 2002 Milan solicited and accepted meals, hotel stays and other perks including tickets to the World Series, Broadway shows and a Madonna concert.
Solicited crosses a line, IMO, as I noted in my original post.
>>> the things they describe: "meals, hotel stays, tickets" are not usually kickbacks per se. <<<
They are not kickbacks if they are part of the wining and dining to try to get business. Therefore the corporate boxes do serve a legitimate purpose. But they are kickbacks if they are given only with a purchase. This includes frequent flier miles that are given to individuals flying on company purchased tickets. Because they are so ubiquitous, most corporations condone the employee getting them as a perk. But anyone who has discretionary travel that he can book himself has to watched closely.
Many years ago, when I was a fleet manager controlling 80 company cars, each with a credit card, I had a problem with drivers finding the most expensive gas stations because the stations were offering multiple extra trading stamps (do you remember those? Collect books full and trade in for merchandise). Later I had to check on a secretary who was ordering premium office supplies from a supplier that was sending nylon stockings with every order. Both are examples of employees taking kickbacks, They are no different than the person who approves a contract pocketing a $10,000.00 payment from the other party, but they are so small they amount to petty theft, and that is why they are not prosecuted.
Tom
"Later I had to check on a secretary who was ordering premium office supplies from a supplier that was sending nylon stockings with every order. "
In effect, the secretary was buying stockings (with the difference in price) with company money.
Sometimes companies will decline to prosecute so long as the former employee agrees, in writing, to make restitution. If he/she does not, or starts missing payments, the company's attorney fil;es suit against him/her and turns incriminating evidence over to the district attorney.
Prosecute? Oh, please. For Green Stamps and nylons? Fired is more like it, if that much.
What do they teach in business school anyway? Being in an industry for a year is a bigger education than a lot of professor's theory.
You want kickback? It ranges much bigger in size and type--and then I know a pair of industries where many of the buyers expected a kick back - and forth - and back - and forth, if you get my drift. I hope it's different in our modern world.
Hey, the little guys get their cut, too. When I was in import/export, I went down to the docks to claim a shipment of model goods from England (in the days when the Port of New York really was in New York) one of the boxes had been torn open and taped closed and some goods missing. When I asked the shipping line clerk, he responded "Rats." He glanced up in the direction of some bipeds who were busily unloading the ship. When I put in a claim to the freight insurer, their attitude was kind of "that's all they got? The rats mustn't have been very hungry." :)
Then there are the soft corruptions. Like the salesmen who get in the front door because of the old school tie, or worse, the ones who had to change their last names to get in the front door.
Of course it ain't just the slobs and buyers who get their cut. Like the doctors I knew of a decade or so ago who began investing in labs and then referring their patients to their own labs for tests. All the tests were necessary and appropriate, of course. WHy did the evil insurance companies crack down on that practice? Anybody with an MD after their names go to the slammer over that one?
Real world, Ron, Real world.
No, I'm not condoning any of it, but I guess you can accuse me if it makes you feel good. :-)
"What do they teach in business school anyway? Being in an industry for a year is a bigger education than a lot of professor's theory."
True. I've had the benefit of both. An MBA and 20+ years in three different businesses.
"Hey, the little guys get their cut, too. When I was in import/export, I went down to the docks to claim a shipment of model goods from England (in the days when the Port of New York really was in New York) one of the boxes had been torn open and taped closed and some goods missing. When I asked the shipping line clerk, he responded "Rats." He glanced up in the direction of some bipeds who were busily unloading the ship. When I put in a claim to the freight insurer, their attitude was kind of "that's all they got? The rats mustn't have been very hungry." :)
That can happen as long as the insurers and the customers who pay for that don't crack down. It's amazing what can happen when insurers start telling you they can't write policies for you anymore.
"Of course it ain't just the slobs and buyers who get their cut. Like the doctors I knew of a decade or so ago who began investing in labs and then referring their patients to their own labs for tests. All the tests were necessary and appropriate, of course."
Of course. They were necessary for the MD's to make the payments on their Porsches.
"Anybody with an MD after their names go to the slammer over that one?"
As a matter of fact, yes, you can go to the slammer for that. There are physicians who run afoul of Medicare rules who have lost their licenses to practice, and there are some in jail over stuff like this. Not enough, in my opinion. But the risk is there, at least.
"Real world, Ron, Real world."
I know. I live in it. Somebody has to :0)
That can happen as long as the insurers and the customers who pay for that don't crack down.
BWAHhahahahahahahahahahahahah !!!!!
Maybe we can get Father Barry to talk to the boys are us. ;-)
Bribes and kickbacks are said to be unethical and harmful, and they are said to cause greater financial damage than such blue-collar crimes as blatant robbery....this may be true, but for every bribe, every kickback, the victims are usually third parties. The parties doing the transaction both benefit... thus, one might argue that bribes and kickbacks are like regular transactions in that someone pays to have something done, and the payee does it. In that case, who's to say what's a bribe (or kickback) and what's a legitimate transaction? How do we know that one man's bribe is, indeed, not another man's legitimate transaction? Tammany Hall sustained itself for years by bribing immigrant populations (and thus helping them), which is arguably both a bad deed and a good deed. That's the trouble I have with thinking of bribery as evil... not that I actually condone it, though.
It's really very simple. Bribery is stealing. Period.
Say a vendor is wiling to sell widgets for $1.43, because they can make a profit at that price and the competition may offer them at that price.
But the vendor quotes a price of $1.48 because they have given gifts to the customer's purchasing agent that induce the purchasing agent to select that vendor over a possibly better or cheaper vendor.
The vendor and purchasing agent together have stolen $.05 from the purchasing agent's employer.
The only times bribery isn't stealing is when the employer and employee agree that bribes are part of the employee's salary. Certain countries deliberately don't pay their employees a living wage and understand they will accept bribes to make up the difference.
"Bribes and kickbacks are said to be unethical and harmful, and they are said to cause greater financial damage than such blue-collar crimes as blatant robbery....this may be true, but for every bribe, every kickback, the victims are usually third parties. The parties doing the transaction both benefit... thus, one might argue that bribes and kickbacks are like regular transactions in that someone pays to have something done, and the payee does it. In that case, who's to say what's a bribe (or kickback) and what's a legitimate transaction?"
Bribes have the effect of unlawfully excluding other would-be transactors from the table. It deprives the users of a good or service of the choice of the best or most desirable vendors by funnelling business to a vendor on the basis of personal favors like money or sex. It is a form of illegal discrimination.
In govt. contracting, the executive leadership of govt has a responsibility to spend tax money prudently and honestly. Charging the taxpayers more money than needed in order to reward one person (or one business) beyond fair market value of the good or service essentially constitutes theft. We taxpayers did not consent to that transaction. In private business, shareholders can be similarly victimized.
"Tammany Hall sustained itself for years by bribing immigrant populations (and thus helping them), which is arguably both a bad deed and a good deed."
So did John Gotti. Gotti was very generous to people whom he liked. He gave away money to people, did favors, showed generosity - all for his own self-aggrandizement. But he also followed his own rules, which were at odds with society. If he didn't like you, if you offended him, he could obstruct your business or have you killed.
"but for every bribe, every kickback, the victims are usually third parties. The parties doing the transaction both benefit"
Both participants prosper. The people who don't prosper are
1) oraganization for which the services are rendered
2) The workers performing the service
3) The general public who paid more and got less.
Kickbacks and bribes drive up the cost of performaing a particular job or build a particular project in fourth ways. First the bribe could have been used to circumvented the competitive bidding process (as in the recent case of window washers at public schools) driving up the total cost of the contract. Secound blanket aprovals for cost overruns, allow no show jobs.Third the project is built with crappier materials and workmanship to make up for the cost of the bribe or kickback. Forth - how may factories, stores, jobs never materialize because all of the above.
Hurts worker performing the job - Many city contracts have sipulations on how much each worker for each job role should make. These figures are generally the average range of salaries for the particular job tittle. The reason for this assist in detecting kickback, bribery schemes which pay workers less then the going wage, charge the city or private concern the going wage and the difernce is a kickback.
The general public. We pay higher taxes or higher rent, price of food etc as a result of bribery and kickback schemes.
One case I worked on for a certain city investigative agency uncovered nearly $1 billion dollars in kickbacks / bribes in contracts to build and at that time lease city school buildings. Unfortunily we were only able to procecute on half the amount. Add up the costs of the investigative staff, lawyers, judges etc and the true value was far more.
Want to know why many city neighborhoods have so many empty lots. Local politians offen require a little greasing to get a project going. The local NIMBY groups can be overcome for a price
A very nice post.
Thanks Ron.
>>> Many city contracts have sipulations on how much each worker for each job role should make. These figures are generally the average range of salaries for the particular job tittle. The reason for this assist in detecting kickback, bribery schemes <<<
This may be a stated reason for these laws, but they are usually called "Living Wage" provisions, and the wages specified are equal to union wages, so that union contractors will be able to bid competitively with non-union contractors. These show up where organized labor is strong, but there are laws requiring local government to accept the low bid. They also make it harder for municipal governments to outsource jobs being done by government (union) workers.
Tom
Interesting point. It's acompromise that allows government to follow an ethically valid bidding process without allowing private industry to drive wages below sea level...
For Civil Servants, the law is VERY specific with respect to "gifts" ... in New York State for example, you're limited to a total of $75.00 in "gifts", none of which may be accepted from ANYONE you're doing business with. If this was NY, she'd be in jail, plain and simple.
It does seem like she's stepped way over the line... my employer sets some pretty strict limits on what we're allowed to accept from vendors or customers and, while crossing that line slightly on occasion does occur and is tolerated, asking for even one cent would be instant dismissal. Where I'm at in the food chain, though, the most valuable gift I've ever been offered was a nice ball cap with the vendor's logo on it, so I'll never have to worry about even the appearance of impropriety.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amtrak as of last night resumed operations on Empire connector over Spuyten Duyvil Drawbridge.
To all subscribers,
I just received an e-mail last night that says thieves have struck the Strasburg Rail Road on Monday night. The thieves forcibly broke into the Strasburg Rail Road's engine house and took the following items:
The number plates from engines #31m #90 abd #475.
Classification lights from engines #31 and #89.
1 new classification light.
6 rear end marker lamps, 4 kerosene, and 2 converted to battery operation.
1 photograph of engine #89 on the Green Mountain. Side view with specifications.
1 Strasburg Rail Road rule book. Red loose leaf format.
1 Small (about 1/2 normal size) locomotive brass bell and yoke.
1 ICC steam locomotive defect chart.
They also forced open (and destroyed in the process) a steel door to the back shop, but we haven't spotted anything missing from in there yet.
It appears that there were two perpetrators in that they left many footprints and tire tracks in the snow. Pennsylvania State Police are investigating.
They seemed to havae a specific "shopping list" in that they took only railfan collectibles and only specific ones at that.
We at the Strasburg Rail Road ask for the help of the community and railfan community to return our property to us, and to bring these criminals to justice. If anyone has any information, please call the Strasburg Rail Road at 717-687-8421 and the Pennsylvania State Police.
Some real pieces of railroad history may be lost forever at the hands of some railfan fanatics.
Any help is appreciated.
Bklynsubwaybob
I'm sorry to hear that this has happened.
As with any collectibles worth money (art, stamps, coins), there will be thieves operating.
It's a shame that these fanatics have to ruin it for everyone else. Be on the lookout for the items on Ebay, etc. Some criminals are not that smart.
Hopefully they'll catch the perpetrators and recover the items that were stolen.
#3 West End Jeff
They are not railfan fanatics. They are criminals and I hope they are caught quickly.
--Mark
No, they criminal railfan fanatics. They give all of us a bad name.
Peace,
ANDEE
Once the perpetrators are hopefully caught. They should be made to stay away from rail museums for a LOOOOONG time.
#3 West End Jeff
Lock up those bad boys and throw away the key.
---Brian
What surpised me was the fact that apparently Strasburg didn't have a security system on the buildings. It's well known that there is a partion of the railfan community that steals things and any organization with rail equipment in inside storage had better have the buildings protected.
Very sorry to hear about the losses. My family and I enjoyied the railroad this summer. My son loved Thomas. Living in the city, I am used to locking things up of value. My wife yells at me for putting the CLUB on the car when we are out of town. Force of habit. Nobody around me has a CLUB. Anyhow, it is so strange to me to see the row of passenger cars left in the Strasburg station overnight. No fences. I don't even want to say what some evil person can do to them. But that is also the beauty of Strasburg, time stands still.
What's happening on the Q this weekend and next? What is its north terminal? Local or express in Manhattan? If this advisory is accurate, it can't run through to 57/7, and the W will be packed if it's the only local north of Whitehall.
"If this advisory is accurate, it can't run through to 57/7"
Why not? It looks like it's the 60th St tunnel that's going to have no trains in it. What I don't understand is why they're not running the R through the 63rd St tunnel. Unless of course there's some bizarre GO that closes both express and local tracks between 42nd and 57th. But then the Q ought to have a GO listed.
"the W will be packed if it's the only local north of Whitehall"
That's happened many times during GOs. Either the N or the R has been non-existent and the other limited in some way. The one that runs in a limited way is then packed with hordes who don't realize that the train they are on doesn't go through. You get mass confusion at Times Square.
You didn't read the fine print. In the box at the bottom, it says that Lex/59, 5 Ave, 57 St and 49 St will be closed.
David, I'll try to find out tomorrow when I go back to work.
"You didn't read the fine print. In the box at the bottom, it says that Lex/59, 5 Ave, 57 St and 49 St will be closed."
Thanks. I did indeed miss that. It certainly isn't compatible with "no diversions" for the Q.
So it must be something that does in fact knock out both local and express tracks between 42nd and 57th.
Sounds like a big mess. If they try to turn both Q and W at 42nd, it'll be one flavor of mess. If they run only the W, another type of mess.
They turned 3 lines at Times Square for about 40 years, should be no problem to turn 2
I hear you Bob ... But that was when they knew how to run a Railroad.
3 services at intervals of less then 2 minutes and no computers.
;-) Sparky
There still aren't any computers on the NYC subway system (signalling-wise). Yet.
New York's subway was probably the only one in the world not affected by Y2K problems. No computers - no problem.
Actually, there are -- in a way, at least. Queensboro Plaza Master Tower is the system's first computerized tower.
David
Why not? It looks like it's the 60th St tunnel that's going to have no trains in it. What I don't understand is why they're not running the R through the 63rd St tunnel. Unless of course there's some bizarre GO that closes both express and local tracks between 42nd and 57th. But then the Q ought to have a GO listed.
"The Lex Av-59 St, 5 Av, 57, and 49 Sts stations are closed. Use nearby stations instead."
And as you say, the R would run via 63rd if it could.
Q cutbacks to 42nd (which are necessary whenever the R runs via 63rd in both directions) often go unlisted. I was on the very first yellow Q on 7/22/01 and it terminated at 42nd because the R was running through 63rd, but I don't think any diversions were listed for the Q.
Can both the Q and W relay north of 42nd? They have two express tracks at their disposal, so perhaps it is possible.
Or maybe the tracks through to 57th are open even if the station is closed. In that case, the Q would probably relay from the express track at 42nd while the W would discharge on the local track, run light to 57th, relay in the station there, and come back to 42nd on the local track. That would certainly be the easiest way out if the tracks are open.
That's happened many times during GOs. Either the N or the R has been non-existent and the other limited in some way. The one that runs in a limited way is then packed with hordes who don't realize that the train they are on doesn't go through. You get mass confusion at Times Square.
The N (now the W) almost always runs at least as far north as 42nd, regardless of the GO. (I can't think of any exceptions.) I can only think of two weekends when the R didn't run north of Canal: the weekend of those crazy GO's in Brooklyn that had the N running through Stillwell and back up the Brighton express, and one weekend that the R was supposed to be running to Canal but an emergency GO had it cut back to 34th. (The Q was running local during the emergency GO, definitely SB and I think NB. I think it ran express during the other GO but I'm not sure.)
It's happened but not often.
"The N (now the W) almost always runs at least as far north as 42nd, regardless of the GO."
Agreed. What has happened in the past at Union Square is that the trains northbound are relatively few in number and irregular as well. The platform gets really crowded. Finally a train comes, everybody piles on, and then at 42nd everyone is thrown off. Huge crowds mill around 42nd trying to figure out where to go from there.
This was particularly bad when there was a limited set of stairs at 42nd due to construction.
It'll be less bad at 14th with both the Q and W picking people up, but still bad at 42nd.
What's happening is the reinstallment of the switch from the 60th St. line to the downtown express track (A3) at 57th. So nothing can run through 60th St. (the ERA bulletin mentions some related work in the tunnel itself as well —"pull cable" whatever that means.) Now I didn't hear anything about 57th St being closed. What I heard was the Q terminating on A4 only, and the W relaying north of 42nd. In order to free up the express tracks for this, the Q has to run local in Manhattan. All of this would also block access for the R to use 63rd.
What I'm wondering about is on the other end. Some work is supposed to force the Q to have to relay at Stillwell. I have seen the new track from a distance, but I wonder how you relay there. I guess I'll find out all this stuff when I work there this Sat.
What's happening is the reinstallment of the switch from the 60th St. line to the downtown express track (A3) at 57th. So nothing can run through 60th St. (the ERA bulletin mentions some related work in the tunnel itself as well —"pull cable" whatever that means.) Now I didn't hear anything about 57th St being closed. What I heard was the Q terminating on A4 only, and the W relaying north of 42nd. In order to free up the express tracks for this, the Q has to run local in Manhattan. All of this would also block access for the R to use 63rd.
What I'm wondering about is on the other end. Some work is supposed to force the Q to have to relay at Stillwell. I have seen the new track from a distance, but I wonder how you relay there. I guess I'll find out all this stuff when I work there this Sat.
Relay's at 42nd are done with a swichman and a bridgetable setup at the north end of the uptown plat for the dispatcher.
Bridge table does not go on the train relaying though >G<.
Does this spell a weekend equipment swap between the E and R trains? I don't think the R46's have a 2nd Avenue destination for R trains (can someone confirm this?), and the R32s can display: Continental Avenue,Qns/2nd Avenue,Manhattan/(R)Queens Blvd-Bdwy-4th Ave. What do you guys think should be done?
Brian
The R-46's can be programmed to display any B Division station as a terminal, though not necessarily with a letter attached.
They can certainly be programmed for the V. Even though the V normally doesn't run on weekends, this weekend it will effectively be running.
Or R-32's can be used. (An occasional R-32 set can be found on the R anyway.)
Those are my guesses, from most likely to least. We'll see.
I'd have the R (north section) signed as the V, since it will follow the V route station-for-station. Of course, that begs the question:
Which is less confusing to the intending passenger...
-- the R operating during its normal hours, but NOT in its normal place?
-- the V operating in its normal place, but outside its normal hours?
Any thoughts?
For passengers, less confusion by a V operating on the weekend.
For Transit, less confusion by an R operating in the wrong place.
LOL!!!
wayne
I've been asking myself the same question.
Much as I'd like to see it signed V, I think it would be less confusing signed as an R. Everyone in Queens knows the R runs on weekends, and some may wait and wait for an R to show up.
I suppose there'd be no harm in signing it as a V in Manhattan or on northbound runs.
What other GO's have led incidentally to the operation of a line when it doesn't usually run? (Let's ignore simple express runs, since they're common.) Sometimes the 4 is extended to New Lots (if the 3 is cut back in Manhattan), but I don't think it runs local all the way. That's all I can think of.
I have an idea. Im taking this from when the 1 ran to New Lots due to a GO (before 9/11). Have the south end of the train signed as a "R", have the north end signed as "V". I doubt itll be effective, but it could work.
Da Beastmaster
I asked a supervisor this when the F had its funky S/B 6th Ave, N/B Crosstown GO. Why not have the 179St-2Ave section signed as a V? Supposedly the reasoning was that the V did not run on weekends, and if we did that then people would be looking for it every weekend.
Wasn't that section a Queens express via 63rd? Calling it V just because of the south terminal would have been very confusing, IMO.
You'd be surprised. There may in fact be a 2nd Ave sign on the R46s somewhere. The F doesn't normally terminate at CTL but have signs for F to Forest Hills via Crosstown. IIRC the 46s also have signs for E to Whitehall Street. So its entirely possible for there to be signs R to 2nd Ave.
I can vouch for that F signage:
Also for this unusual V signage:
No, it wasn't in error:
Wow, when did you find that V there?!
BTW, what station is that F in. I'm thinking it's Van Alst.
WRONG, Van Alst has an island platform, it 21st st/Queensbridge.
Yes, where the V is obviously QueensBridge.
I mean the IND station with the green band with the F train.
September 30, 2002. I'm not sure why it ran that way, but it wasn't an accident. I had been waiting at 47-50 when it was announced that the next V train, at W4, would be running via 63rd. I don't know if it ran local or express in Queens.
Van Alst is a possibility -- I don't remember.
Yeah that's definantly 21-Van Alst.
Top Picture has 21st st-Van Alst through the window (didn't look at it carefully.)
Bottom picture is 21st/Queensbridge, (that's too easy)
Yup, the top pic is definitely Van Alst b/c I saw all the tiles falling off and its condition.
Ditto to your comment about Queensbridge.
Yes, there is a code for R-2ND AVENUE via 6th AVENUE
No Diversions Scheduled.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnq.htm
Whoa, this looks like its going to be a major GO for the Broadway line this weekend; I might check it out. If R's are not running into Manhattan, chances are the Q will run local via Broadway.
Here's the service plan for this weekend and lower b'way
Q local canal -57the street
r 95th street - whithall street south
north 71st ave - 2nd avenue
w coney island - 42nd street south
north queensboro plaza - ditmars b'lvd
Thanks. So 49th and 57th will be open after all.
When I saw this G.O.,I knew it was gonna be a major field day on Bway.
I'm thinking about being there on Saturday to help people out at Times Sq and where ever else I can like at 34St and 14th and Canal St.
Then I'll head up to Queens to check out the segment of the R that's supposed to be running like the V and see how that goes.But when something like this happen's,you can bet as hell I'm not gonna sit at home and do nothing.I love helping people and Saturday,that's what I'm gonna do.
Just for the hell of it:
Midnight Sup't - "They changed the GO."
Midnight TSS - "And YOU expected what?"
AM TD - "It's kind of right. There is no R/W service at those stations. Someone just forgot about the Q."
ROTFL. Kind of right? Sure, that's why alternate routes are listed on the back, but a simple "take the Q instead" isn't one of them.
And a fun time was had by all today. People standing in front of signs but not reading them, people waiting for trains at taped off tracks and then silliness from the announcer reading scripts.
Standard announcement from The Script "L & G, for 59/Lex, transfer at 34 St for the R or at 42 St for the E for service to nearby stations."
Update announcement given immediately after above " L&G, due to a police investigation, E and r trains are bypassing 53/Lex in both directions."
See aproblem here?
You went through the R/W GO today?How was it and where were platforms taped off?I plan on going to Times Sq tommorow to help people out since I know it must've looked like D-day there today.I'll also assist people at 34St then go up to Queens to check that part of the GO out.
Oh you gonna be there; I'm probably gonna be around there too and ride the Q,R & W GO tomorrow so who knows we might see each other and not know.
I going there too. I gonna have my camera handy. I hope they have one of those RW take-one available at the station.
Nah here I am at home.I decided to stay since it's way to cold outside and they said its supposed to start snowing in a few hours.
I'll try again next weekend since we're gonna have a repeat of this again next Saturday/Sunday.
Why are there separate numbers if they both travel the same route?
Because of the skip/stop arrangement on the northern end of the route.
Peace,
ANDEE
And that in and of itself is a topic worthy of discussion. If you are interested, that subject has been kick around here on several occasions, look for old treads with keywords like skip or skip/stop.
Most people who have to live with it (including me) hate it. It saves very close to no time for those living at "All" stop stations and increases travel time for those at skipped station.
David Greenberger did an excellent study of this strange "service"!
It saves very close to no time for those living at "All" stop stations and increases travel time for those at skipped station.
Or the ingenious, occaisonal all-stops-made 1 followed by the skip-stop 9. That 9 ends up making all stops just outside the station.
It has a separate identity to avoid confusion; same situation with the J and Z. To me, the 1 and 9 skip stop is useless, all stop service would better suit the line north of 137 St; if peak express was able to be implemented, it would have been done already but lack of island platforms limits that.
The fact the the designers gave no provision for crossing a NB train from M to 4 track eliminates any possibility of an express as well. Once the train crosses into M from 4 at Dyckman street there is no way to get a NB train back to 4 unto 242 St. Then you have a situation where a train makes an express run just to sit outside until a pocket opens.
Second, there are timers all along that middle track, at least I know for sure southbound (I haven't had to deal with any trains coming N/B on M). When we do layups from 242, a train that goes down track 1 gets to 215 St just about the same time a train on M gets to 207 due to the timers. Not much sense trying to make an express run out of that.
Aside from maybe Astoria, the express track, as designed, at the top of the 1/9 line is probably the most useless express track in the system. Not that it's a bad idea to have an express track there if it was built differently. The problem is the way it is designed. In addition to the points made in the above post, the track is severed. It goes from three tracks at 242 to two tracks at Dyckman, then back to three at 145th. And then after 103 it would have to merge again (which wouldn't be too bad, except that it would have had to also merge for the two track section already north of there). If they knew the line was only going to be a two track line from 145th to Dyckman anyway, they should have just made the whole line two tracks, as where they added the express tracks, they are useless anyway. It belongs in that other thread titled, "most ill-concieved subway designs".
No, the middle track is useful for GO's and emergency moves. Look at all the shuttle buses that have to run in place of the L whenever there's track work, or at the wrong-railing that will be taking place this coming weekend (presumably a shuttle bus would have been the preferred option if there were a nearby bridge or vehicular tunnel across the river).
Even if there were a continuous middle track, it still wouldn't make sense to use it. Express service makes sense on lines that have greater ridership at outlying stations than at close-in stations, and on four-track lines that need more service than a local alone could provide. The 1/9 has much greater ridership at close-in stations. If any change is worth considering, it's turning some trains short of the end of the line.
True, a third track is a welcome addition when trackwork is necessary. I have dealt with the L shuttle bus enough times to have realized that.
The problem we seem to have with the "express" track on the 1/9 may be because we are calling it a poor design as an "express" track. The truth is that it may not have been designed as an "express" track at all. Perhaps, it may have been designed for just what you stated, as a "reroute" track and not an "express" track at all. That sort of revelation seem to put it in a new sort of light.
It is "ill-concieved" as an "express" track, but as a "reroute" track instead it isn't quite so "ill-concieved".
Hmm, maybe it wasn't meant for the middle track to be used for revenue service but then again, you never know. Around 145 St, I see some 1 trains lay up on it so its good for storage. Now, if there we're island platforms at 137 St, 168 St, 181 St & Dyckman St at least, then there's a possibility. BUT the peak express service on the 1 using the middle track is useless, just like the Jerome line's middle track, a peak express will probably be useless on the 4 too.
Astoria, Jerome & Broadway middle tracks probably have NO good use for a peak express service.
The layups you see are probably at the small underground yard between 137th and 145th.
just have <3> peak trains to/from 137 St Broadway(they can be express or local)
Would they run local or express south of 96th? The extra service is most badly needed at local stations south of 96th. It's certainly not needed in Brooklyn, and Rogers interlocking pretty much rules out the possibility of many more 3's.
Simply short-turning alternate 1's at 137th and doing away with skip-stop makes more sense, I think. But the way 137th is set up, it's easier to just send everything through to 242nd, which is probably why everything does run through to 242nd. The only problem is that 242nd has pretty much reached capacity and the local stations south of 96th could still use more service. (Service has gotten reliable but it's still overcrowded.)
I agree with the "Burger" here. If you want to keep the 9, have them terminate at 137St and go back south. Skip-Stop needs to go away on the 1 line.
1: 242St to SF, all times
9: 137St to SF, 7am-10pm weekdays only
Da Beastmaster
I agree to it can be like the Pelham/ Parkchester service.
242 St to South Ferry (1) Every 6 to 8 Minutes
137 St to South Ferry (9) Every 8 Minutes
# 1/9 Service below 137 Street trains will come in every 2 to 4 Minutes during Rush Hours every 4 Minutes Middays. However to make it work you need Switchman and Platfrom C/R's.
Thats true about the switchmen and platform conductors. All they got to do is send those that are up at 242-VC right now. The 9 trains could stay at 137St yard. SkipStop gots to go.
Da Beastmaster
Couldn't agree more!! The Platform C/R's could be those on WAA.
"SkipStop gots to go."
AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know what was real stupid; getting rid of midday 9 service in 1995 but implementing the skip stop in the first place was a failure IMO. I agree with Da Beastmaster here, bring midday 9 service back, better yet just get rid of the #9 all together and set it aside for something else in the future.
Make all trains the 1 and have every other train go to 242 St; it will eliminate some confusion people may enconuter.
As the "burger" posted, turning alternating 1's at 137
may seem like a NEW and HIP idea..... but the mid to late
1980's says hello.
In the 80's I seem to recall some ALTERNATING 1'S carried
(137st Broadway) as their north terminal which was upsetting to
some geese whom boarded ASS-U-MIng that ALL 1's went to 242-VCP...
The turning of the 1's at 137 led to overcrowding at the 137 platform
and when majority caught on to this trend, people would wait for a
242-bound 1 at a PREVIOUS station, thus several 242 trains which followed
would ALREADY COME FULL to 137 and depart sans pick-up and then the
next 137 turner (not Ted) would dump even MORE geese to the platform....
All for not wanting a train go to "through to 242"
And we all know the CONGA line which turning a train at 137 can (and has)
produced en masse.... last weekend's GO, anyone?
Do all the studies you want, but OPEN the eyes to reality.
Proudly the 1SF9
I never proposed it as a new idea -- it's a return to the pre-1989 pattern.
I don't know what headways or ridership patterns were like then. I do know what they're like now: the line below 137th is underserved, the line above 137th is overserved, and the single terminal is overburdened. I've posted the numbers: there are more passengers at the few local stations between 42nd and 96th than there are on the entire line above 137th.
The line itself can accomodate 30 tph. The single terminal can't; service peaks at 20 tph as a result. Only by short-turning some trains can service be added where more service is needed. Unfortunately, 137th isn't an ideal terminal, but with switchmen and platform conductors it can work. Or maybe Dyckman would work better.
Skip-stop was a worthwhile experiment, but it's failed. It's time to recognize that and move on.
I, together with others have looked at this. The track arrangements are not optimal for this, as there is no 'express' or terminal track, but only a single thru track that platforms.
So there really is no place, IIRC, where a train can actually REVERSE direction, and then if there were, the ta's geese control policies would detain the train at the platform too long. Even ten platform conductors with rubber hoses could not empty a pull-out train fast enough for the following through train to platform on schedule.
Some trains *could* be turned both at 137th street and at Dyckman, but you would have to accept taking people into they layup and holding them hostage against their will until the next available put-in.
:^) Elias
The yard at 137th Street is EIGHT TRACKS WIDE!
I wonder if the easiest thing might be to drop the two outboard tracks down and loop them UNDER the Mane Lion!
they you would have a loop, and any number of trains could run the loop, and misguided geese (who are lost anyway) could go back downtown and try it again! : )
So then the (1) train would be 242 VCP to South Ferry, and could even be express from 145th Street in the rush direction, while the (9) could be 137th Street to South Ferry (all Stops). Sonner or later people will figure out the difference between the (1), the < 1 > and the (9).
Elias
Whoa.
You're talking about adding a THIRD line....
They's talking about cutting DOWN a line...
1SF9
!1 and 9, oh so fine!
No, I'm not really adding a line.
The issue is (or seemed to be) that more service was needed than the terminal at 242VCP could handle. To do that you can short turn trains somewhere. But wile there is a possiblilty of running rush express trains on the line, there really is no good options for short turns.
You can take trains out of service at both 137 and Dyckman Streets, but to turn them ans send them back again is a problem. Unloading the trains quick enough to allow the turnabout is also a problem. You would need 10 platform conductors with rubber hoses to clear a car quickly enough for the next train to platform.
*IF* some way of doing short turns could be found, having different designators for these trains would be helpful to the geese. The best way to make these turns is to make a loop under the 137th Street yard, which ought not be too difficult of an undertaking. Certainly it has to be easier than fixing an escalator at Boro Hall!
So with all (1) / (9) trains running local south of 96th Street to South Ferry, all that remains is to see how one might configure service north of 96th:
( 1 ) 242VCP to SF Local All Times
< 1 > 242VCP to SF Express Rush Directions
( 9 ) 137St to SF Local All Times
With whatever increase in TPH is neceaasry to max out the line south of 96th Street. The only purpose of having the < 1 > express is so that the train immediately following a ( 9 ) train runs on the express track past 137th Street, giving the ( 9 ) a little more time to discharge its passengers before heading into the loop. So it is the dispatcher at 137th Street who will designate the southbound trains so that they will be in the correct order northbound, ie: (1) (9) < 1 > (1) (9) etc.
Elias
Some trains *could* be turned both at 137th street and at Dyckman, but you would have to accept taking people into they layup and holding them hostage against their will until the next available put-in.
Isn't that a similar pattern as turning trains and removing passengers as it would be at terminals such as Continental-71st? There also the V and R passengers bound for points east of there must unload from there comfortable seats at 71st and get off and wait for a F or E to continue their trip. If they were to turn trains short at Dyckman or 137th, passengers heading north would have to detrain the same way the R and V passengers do.
I don't think it would work as well if it was 1's that short turned. They should call the turn-short trains 9. After a few weeks, passengers would get used to the 9's terminal being at 137th or Dyckman, just like Queens riders know that the R's end at Continental. Then when passengers see 1, they know it will go to 242. If they see 9, they will know it will only go to 137th, just like Queens riders know R's only go to Continental, while F's go to 179th.
Some trains *could* be turned both at 137th street and at Dyckman, but you would have to accept taking people into they layup and holding them hostage against their will until the next available put-in.
Isn't that a similar pattern as turning trains and removing passengers as it would be at terminals such as Continental-71st? There also the V and R passengers bound for points east of there must unload from there comfortable seats at 71st and get off and wait for a F or E to continue their trip. If they were to turn trains short at Dyckman or 137th, passengers heading north would have to detrain the same way the R and V passengers do.
I don't think it would work as well if it was 1's that short turned. They should call the turn-short trains 9. After a few weeks, passengers would get used to the 9's terminal being at 137th or Dyckman, just like Queens riders know that the R's end at Continental. Then when passengers see 1, they know it will go to 242. If they see 9, they will know it will only go to 137th, just like Queens riders know R's only go to Continental, while F's go to 179th.
That was exactly my point of having the 137St bound trains signed as 9.
Da Beastmaster
I follow ya, Beastman.... but still the complex equation
remains.... how to turn the 9's at 137 WITHOUT clogging
up the line-ala-conga..
Having experienced the ( 1 ) to 137st Broadway ballyhoo of the
1980's I plead there MUST be a more logical (less tienecked)
location on the line where we can efficiently turn the 9's
(if it COMES to that)
Yeah... the only solution (hehe.... *my* solution) is is to reconfigure the 137th Street Yard. The Yard is 8 tracks wide, and if the east-most and west-most tracks ramp down, there ought to be plenty of space to loop them under the north end of the yard.
Yes, it takes two tracks out of service for the year or two that it will take to make this, but once it is done, they do become available again to lay-up equipment at night, and indeed ought to hold one more train than before (I think).
Elias
This is qualitatively the same problem as the F/G at Smith-9th, the (off-peak) 4/5 at Bowling Green, the J/M/Z at Broad, the 2/5 at Nereid, the M/W at Bay Parkway. Apparently it's not much of a problem.
Quantitatively it's different, of course. Service in this case is more frequent. If a crew of two can clear out a ten-car train in four minutes, then a crew of two plus two (or four, or ten) platform conductors can clear out a (smaller) ten-car train in two minutes. That's all we need.
The track arrangement isn't ideal but it's good enough.
This is qualitatively the same problem as ... the (off-peak) 4/5 at Bowling Green
Quantitatively it's different, of course. Service in this case is more frequent.
Not quantatively different at all - if anything the off-peak 4/5 is more frequent than the peak 1/9:
4 (mid-day): 12tph
5 (mid-day): 6tph
TOTAL: 18tph
1/9 (peak): 15tph
There apparently is a brief period in the morning rush with scheduled 3-minute headways on the 1/9 -- i.e., 20 tph. The idea, presumably, is to increase service, so we'd actually have somewhat more than 20 tph.
If nothing else, I don't see why we couldn't have 20 tph for more than a brief period. It would also be nice for the Sunday morning rampup to 12 tph to proceed a bit faster (the trains are already fairly crowded by 9am) and to have 15 tph for the peak period Sunday evening.
Incidentally, I really like your idea (if only it were possible) of running 9's to Grand Central. That would eliminate a transfer for a lot of people (many of whom currently have to transfer twice) and would effectively duplicate the (very popular) M104 bus.
As you've said, service peaks with 20 TPH on the 1/9 line. I'd like to see them add just 2 TPH between 7-9am and 4-7p. These 2 trains would run between Dyckman and SF.
All this reminds me of how efficient the 6 line is due to Parkchester. Can you imagine how much better things would be if the 1 line had an express stop just a few stations south of VC?
Ya know... I was at Parkchester today observing how they
dump geese at the uptown platform (the diamond 6)
and lay-up just NORTH of the station before changing
ends and placing that same < 6 > back into Lex Local
Service as a ( 6 ) instantaneously...
Thinking of the 1.... Dyckman would seem like the BEST
logical location to accomplish this same/mutual feat
(given, the lack of a middle 3rd track) but IIRC we DO
have the ability to lay-up and change-ends N of Dyckman..
Good gig, guys! :)
Dyckman Street-200th Street sounds better
Actually, your posted number of 20 TPH's on the 1 line is way off. They don't even run that many during rush-hour.
I'd also like to know who told you that the line itself can handle 30 TPH.
Actually, your posted number of 20 TPH's on the 1 line is way off. They don't even run that many during rush-hour.
Someone posted a small exerpt of the timetable with three-minute headways. That's 20 tph, if only for a brief period.
I'd also like to know who told you that the line itself can handle 30 TPH.
Can't pretty much every line handle 30 tph? The terminals are usually the bottlenecks. I don't think South Ferry is a bottleneck.
The public MTA timetable says every 3 to 5 minutes. That sounds like closer to 15 than 20.
Starting at 7 A.M. we run a 3 min. headway for one hour from V.C. I make a 7:02 folowed by the 7:05,08,10(out of 231) my leader is the 6:58.
Not every line can handle 30tph; look at post 9/11 service plenty of trains but all moving at 10-15mph.
I was mainly referring to running express north of 96 St for the <3> trains possibly stopping at only 137 and 125 Streets only then going express until 96 St.
And how would those 3 trains stop at 125th Street? 125th Street is NOT an "express" station.
Useless, might as well just leave 3 service the way it is now unless it ran express via loccal and that still won't make a lot of sense b/c you would deprive people of a possible connection to the IRT express at 103,110,116 and 125. Now if 137 St was a island then it might be possible to run some 3 trains as a <3> via express but then you could just sign a 9 as the express.
But why would you run extra service to the stations that already have sufficient service while bypassing the ones that don't? (And why 125th? That's the least busy station in the 96-137 stretch, by a factor of two.)
Here are the 16 stations along the line that are most in need of additional service, according to 2000 fare registrations, ranked with the most underserved stations at the top, and excluding transfer points: 50, 66, 86, Cortlandt, 79, South Ferry, 23, Houston, 110, 116, 137, 103, Christopher, 28, 157, 18. How would extra express service help?
one seat express service to those on the Broadway line to lower Manhattan(7th line)(or whoever can get this train) and a bonus, Harlem express as well (like the <5> does on upper WPR)
125th would have to be included because it's well 125th Street, everyone has to stop there
And for the second time, how do you suggest that people board trains on the express track?
so looks like there is no switches after all, guess the 3 would have to run local(or express on the local tracks if timed correctly). of course it still would be a one seat express ride to downtown(and uptown). Eliminates crowd congestion at 96 St Broadway
You could have looked at a track map and switching would take too much time. If you are in such a dire need for an express from one of those stations to somewhere in Midtown or Downtown, why don't you wait for a train that just happens to be rerouted down the express? I actually once got a one seat ride from 110th to 34th on a 9 train making express stops of 96th because the 9 showed up 15 minutes after its leader (I know because I missed that train). If you don't want to wait that long, just walk across the platform at 96th. I don't believe crowding there is any worse than most cross platform transfers that aren't transfer points to other lines.
of course I would suggest that 125th Street be redone to an island platform, but that is just a suggestion. Look at how a direct express(#5 in Bronx and post 9/11 #3) works on WPR it is great.
Except that ridership patterns are not at all alike. What works on one line doesn't necessarily work on another.
Your plan for 125th should include a elevator because it's 2 storys up.
actually a <3> if it could run could terminate at W 238 Street and go into the 240 St yard just like it did when it ran in the Bronx before to E 238 Street and 239 St yard .
that's acutally a pretty good idea. to handle the capacity needs on the 1/9, without worrying about capacity problems at 242, just have the 9's terminate at 238. This way, both 1 and 9 will make all stops. (9 running just during rush hours) This is exactly like on the white plains road line, where the rush hour <5> terminates one stop before the end of the line to access the yard, with the 2 going to the end of the line.
I have a better suggestion that meets the need of riders better:
1 to 242nd st All Times
9 to Dyckman st only Rush hours (use track M as turnaround)
Both trains make all stops, no more skip-stop service.
If they are both local, they don't need two different numbers - not all trips on a given line have to go all the way to the end of the line.
Fine, kill off the number 9 altogether. Many people on the West side of Manhattan (except for David Greenberger, or course) think the #9 line runs on weekends. Better to have just the #1 train and have every other #1 turn at Dyckman St during rush hours.
Dude, does Dyckman have a restroom?
Then NYCT can add a crew room at the south end of the station, with restrooms and tables to eat. It's only during rush hours, what abouth the G.O.'s that turned at Dyckman St, with shuttle buses on some weekends? How long did Dyre Ave/IRT had no crew room until NYCT installed one? I saw the old U.S. DOT sign at Dyre about 15 years ago "New Crew Rooms at Dyre Ave station" as a contract.
If they knew the line was only going to be a two track line from 145th to Dyckman anyway, they should have just made the whole line two tracks, as where they added the express tracks, they are useless anyway. It belongs in that other thread titled, "most ill-concieved subway designs
The problem with the Broadway Boulevard Line (BB) is that it was designed and partially built as a two track line below Dyckman Street.After construction had begun the plans were changed to add a third track which caused a great deal of rebuilding. The addition of the third track is the reason that the yard north of 137 Street has three tracks on one side and two on the other. It was originally to have had three tracks on each side.
A similar situation occured with the Brooklyn Mainline of the IRT between Boro Hall and Atlantic Avenue. This was designed and again partially constructed as a two and three track line. Public pressure forced the designers to convert this to a four track line which accounts for the fifth trackway at Nevins Street and the center platform at Atlantic Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Very, very interesting.
Did any platforms have to be moved, or did the change take place before that stage?
Did the viaduct at 125th originally carry only two tracks?
Just north of 116th the line runs through a very brief section of arch tunnel. AFAIK, it's the only three-track arch tunnel in the system. Were there originally two tracks in the area?
David: The viaduct was built for three tracks but just prior to the tunnel portal the tracks make a jog to the left to access the viaduct. I'll post a more detailed answer this weekend.
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbird R33
Why J and Z?
Answer that and then apply the answer to the 1 and 9
I guess I'll throw my two cents in...There is a similar skip-stop service on the Market-Frankford line in Philadelphia, rush-hour only. The trains are designated "A" and "B," and stations alternate between A stops and B stops. In theory it might work, but it's been watered down so much that between Center City and Frankford Terminal an A or B train skips only three out of eleven stations on that branch of the line. There are even fewer skipped stops on the West Philly branch to 69th Street. I used to live in NE Philly, and it was always annoying that the system was so watered down, especially when the vast majority of passengers rode all the way to the end of the line. What is needed was either a real alternating skip-stop system, or a true express train...and the latter isn't going to happen on a two-track line.
Actually, what is really needed is 1) the proposed subway under Roosevlet Boulevard to provide additional capacity to NE Philly and 2) urban renewal in Kensington so people will move there, making all those stations between Center City and Frnakford into places where people will actually get on and off the trains.
I'm just glad I live in West Philly now and I don't have to worry about it on a daily basis.
Mark
The usefulness of separate numbers is discussed by others. As for why the number "9" was chosen, perhaps it was to match the stretch of road in New Jersey shared by U.S. 1 and U.S. 9.
I would have gone with 1A/1B for the skip-stop trips and 1 for the all-stop trips. (Similarly, the Jamaica Line would have J1/J2 during the peak and J at other times.) Then the two-branched A could become A1 and A2, so we could transfer from the A1 to the 1A!
the A has 3 branches all together
also the Bx9 runs on route 9 under the (1) and (9) as well
The number 9 was chosen because it was on the R-62A rollsigns in red. I wouldn't read much more into it than that. (Incidentally, since its inception, the 9 has only run R-62A's. Similarly, the V has only run R-46's. Any others?)
I agree that 1A/1B would have been clearer. At the rush hour shoulders, there's no clear way for a passenger bound for a 9 stop to tell if he should get on a 1 or wait for the 9 behind it.
[At the rush hour shoulders, there's no clear way for a passenger bound for a 9 stop to tell if he should get on a 1 or wait for the 9 behind it.]
Even worse: Upper West Siders no longer think of their local service as the 1; when giving directions, many of them refer to the 1/9 ("one-nine"). As a result, their out-of-town guests actually let BOTH 1's and 9's go by while waiting for a 1/9. (Yes, some folks ARE that dumb!)
Most of the new Luminators can only display one character, correct?
Correct, but the 1/9 runs exclusively R-62A's, which have rollsigns.
Correct, so do the flip dot signs and the LED's. On the 1/9 its trains [R62A's] they have rollsigns only.
TA felt the need to create a 9 line because of the popular rap lyric, "Engine, engine number nine, on the New York Transit line---".
Anyone know what was going on at Church Ave on the Brighton line this morning? Trains were bypassing the station for some reason. Police activity?
On the outside of the local tracks just north of 57/7, there appear to be trackless ramps rising up. I'm not talking about the express tracks which go to the 63rd St tunnel, but two trackless ramps on the outside of the local tracks. Does anyone know what these things are? Or were? Or will be?
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
I think they were used for layups and storage of trains. I think they we're removed 10 years ago or something like that.
They were provisions for the BMT's plan to run a line to Wasington Heights or thereabouts. I think the building of the IND and the weaking finances of the BMT prevented it from happening.
For many years prior to the construction of the 8th Avenue line, there were proposals to operate other services to the Upper West Side and Washington Heights. Many of them included a northern extension of the Broadway line, using those ramps, and then swinging the tracks over to Central Park West and uptown. Invariably, those proposals ran into a brick wall named John Hylan.
Going into the 1930s and 1940s, the New York City Board of Transportation had plans for lines that would use those ramps, run the length of Central Park, and up into Harlem. Those plans went the way of most Board of Transportation plans, and, since then, those ramps have essentially just sat there.
In fact, I believe all four tracks were to ramp up toward CPW, with the tracks towards Queens branching off from between the local and express tracks (think of 4th Avenue where the West End branches off or 8th Avenue where the 6th Avenue line branches off). In the end, nothing ever connected to the local trackways and the 63rd Street line eventually used the express trackways -- but what we invariably think of as the mainline was originally treated as a branch.
I wouldn't argue with you on that. The original scheme for the Queens tracks was to run them over the Queensborough Bridge, which might have required a different track configuration beyond 57th Street. Maybe the set-up you described would have allowed for that. Under any circumstances, what you state makes a lot of sense.
Thinking about the hue and cry that arose when a little bit of Central Park was temporarily dug up for 63rd Street, I can't even imagine what the reaction would have been when the time came to tunnel under the whole park, even if they were to do a lot of it in deep tunnel.
The proposal to use the Queensboro Bridge for connecting the BMT Broadway line to Queensboro Plaza involved two single-track tunnels under 59th and 60th Sts., probably converging into a dual-track tunnel under Central Park South between 5th and 7th Avenues.
-- Ed Sachs
"Thinking about the hue and cry that arose when a little bit of Central Park was temporarily dug up for 63rd Street, I can't even imagine what the reaction would have been when the time came to tunnel under the whole park, even if they were to do a lot of it in deep tunnel."
That is why the TA meticulously put every rock and tree and tuft of grass back where it was. Cost a hell of a lot to do that, but the TA kept its promise to restore the park.
Will anyone be able to tell your doing TBM below them? What, are you going to tbm down yourself to investigate?
TBM?
Tunnel boaring machine. looks like a sping disk cheese grater that makes round tunnels. Used on english chunnel.
No, that's reserved for 76th Street.
--Mark
It would have been smarter to attach all 4 ramps to the tracks going to 63rd St. This would allow trains from 63rd St to access the Broadway local tracks without interfering with the express service.
Yes, full flexibility would have been very nice. I don't know if it would have been worth the additional cost, though.
To add to my previous post, there we're plans to extend the Broadway line; which would of used those ramps but since that expansion NEVER happened, I think they we're used for storage until the tracks we're removed some time ago.
I think your question was adequately answered by the other posters, but I just want to add this.
When the BRT/BMT was building the Broadway line as part of the Dual Contracts, the company also wanted to be awarded the Central Park West/8th Avenue route, which was on the planning boards at that time. The company figured that if they built ramps from the Broadway line that could naturally be extended to an 8th Avenue line, they would get a toehold on being awarded that line, rather than lose out to the IRT, the only other subway operator when the Dual Contracts were built. The BMT/BRT never built that line for various reasons including the bankruptcy of the company after Malbone Street and Hylan's plan to include the 8th Avenue/CPW route in the IND system. The ramps were built but never used for revenue service. They were eventually used for storage until the tracks were disconnected. That's where they are today.
I've always heard the plan was for a Columbus/Morningside Line, since it was stupid to build a line with the park on one side, which they did anyway.
A line up Columbus and Morningside would have definitely made more sense. Would've probably been more popular too.
No. The inner ramps (current leads to the 63rd street line) were used for storage. The outer ramps (With track but no third rail) were NEVER connected or used.
Mark, are you certain those tracks were never used? What would
have been the point of laying down ties and rail? It's about
what 3 car lengths? There must have been a switch, even
temporary, to get in there.
Oh, we have a disagreement.
I remember the ramps were use to store the old QB service trains.
Please see post and post comments at
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=65494
Of course, the eastern div. is to get all new 4 car units, so there is no question what it's assignments will be. But it seems the 5 car units are what will be delivered first.
If the A receives first, the R-38's would probably be retired right away, while the 32's shifted around. The 44's, on the way to becoming the oldest (and crappiest) of the fleet, would finally be handed down to the C, which has traditionally gotten such equipment.
In Queens, since it was determined that 60 ft cars handle the crowds better, that is why the E got the 32's. So the E would probably get the 160's directly, and the remaining 32's, now divided between the F and R, would be replaced by 160's on the F, leaving the G, V and R entirely R-46. Since the 32's are in the best condition of th older cars,you will probably see them shifted around first and retired lat, so they may even return to the south for a while, an perhaps even the east, before that section gets all of its 160's
In the south, before the Manhattan Bridge work, the B and D were entirely R-68 or R-68A, while the N had what was left over. The Q was entirely slant 40's which were in the worst shape, because that line was only part time. Before that, it was the Q that was all 68's, and the B that was slant 40's.
Since it is usually the more higher profile lines that get the newer equipment first, then it will probably be the D and N. The Q would of course get back the 68's, which will then be the oldest equipment in that section, and the B will keep its 68/68A's.
If the option orders are taken, and the 44's are retired, then Queens will probably get more 160's for the F, and 46's would be sent over to the C. If the 46's are replaced, then the rest of the 160's would probably be divided between Queens and South, with the 68/68A's filling up the C, and also scattered amongst all the other lines. I think they shouldn't retire the 46's, because those shells look like brand new, and all they would have to do is do another rebuilding, to make them look more like the modern equipment-- the brighter interior, electronic signs, automated announcements, and replace the fiberglass blind ends with windows to see into the next car, etc. Add CBTC/ATO capability if possible. (The same thing could be done to the 62/68's, removing the unused cabs (circuit breakers would have to be moved)). If the carbon steel section of the 44 body can be replaced with stainless steel, then keep those too (but I forgot if the framework and bulkheads are carbon or stainless steel or not.
If this is done, then both divisions will be down to only 3 car classes each, and like with the buses, we will have to rely on car #'s to tell when equipment is moved or run on another line.
Great foresight. I just hope the R160's aren't complete copies of the R143. It wouldn't hurt to see more stuff added in, if I can think of any.
"If the A receives first, the R-38's would probably be retired right away, while the 32's shifted around."
My guess is that the R-40 slants will be the first to go, followed by the R-40 modified and R-38. The Coney Island overhauled R-42's will follow the R-38's and lastly the the M & K overhauled R-42's. And then the R-32's will bow out lastly. The R-44 and 46's will be the last and it will be some time before any new equipment for the B division will be ordered.
Now, that's my guess. I didn't hear it from this source and that source etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
...and then all life will end as we know it. Who wants to spend their valuable time taking photos of R-68's, R-143's, and R-160's? Everything will be so sanitized...so homogeneous. The NYC subway system will loose a lot of its character. A lot! I know that when I ride an R-32, 38, 40, 40M, and 42, and to a lesser extent the 44 and 46, I just feel something special inside me. I feel like I'm on a machine that has potential to excel and to take me on an adventure. When I'm on a 68 or 143, I feel like I'm just going from point A to point B. Sure, I can expect the ride to be comfortable and without incident. But fun? No. The future looks bleak.
Take Pride,
Brian
Imagine what the railfans said when the D-Types, Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, BUs and Steinways were being retired. They probably said what you said as they discussed the R-32s!
It's Deja-Vu all over again!
--Mark
When the R-44s and 46s came and the R-1/9 series was being scrapped I said the bingbongs were a poor replacement. The pre-WWII cars were much more enjoyable. They were more theatrical than the 44's and 46's with their ceiling fans, wicker seats, clerestory roofs and roof vents, and pneumatic doors. They even had their own distinctive smell, unique to those cars. These were trains that, as another SubTalker has noted, you rode for fun. Plus I hated the absence of RFW on the 44/46 from the day these cars arrived.
Part of the reason I'm a railfan today is the old cars like the R-1/9 , Standards, and 1938 WF. Besides being the trains of childhood, they always seemed to have special qualities--CHARACTER-- that today's technoboxes will NEVER have. Guess I'm beginning to get OLD... :-(
...and then all life will end as we know it.
I think you're exaggerating a bit. But just a bit.
From a "reliable source", I've heard the R38's will go first, then the slants, then the modifieds. If the option order on the R160 contract is excercized (a virtual certainty) the Phase I R32's and CI R42's will be next. Finally, the Phase II and MK R42's will bite the dust.
R-38's go first ? I would be certain the slants would go first. The R-38's seem to be in better condition, although their age may be a factor.
Still from what I've heard, the structural integrity of the roofs on R-38 thru R-42's are the death sentence, leaks and rust included. Goes to show you how the R-32's will be the last 60 footers to go because of their superior construction.
I can't fathom seeing R-32's being scrapped, I remember them shiny and new. I doubt if they will be reefed. They have should have no asbestos in them. I saw their interiors stripped to the ribbed stainless steel when the were first overhauled at M & K years ago.
Oh well.....maybe they can be sold off as bungalows, storage sheds etc. They'll last forever.
Bill "Newkirk"
heh, I see a "Camp Budd" in Rockaway somewhere :)
--Mark
It's a certainty that the R38's will go first, then the slants. The 38's have rusting problems which dwarf the other types.
I think they should be sold to some railroad as boxcars. (There are many freight truck trailers that have the fluting and always reminded me of the 32's.
Perhaps the other stainless steel cars could be sold to some poor country.
Actually, the Bird's would make good truck trailers to be hauled on flatbed rail cars -- at 51 feet by 8-foot-10, they're almost the exact same size as all the standard length truck trailers on the road today (though ones you got them off the flatbeds, actually seeing an R-33 being hauled around on the back end of a Kennworth would be extremely weird, and having rubber wheels in place of the regular metal ones would be positively Montrealish).
But the bodies are still corroding. The 32's would be good, because they could still last many years after that.
Yeah, the MTA could make some real cash by selling the steel to other places once the R32's fade into history. On which cars will go whenever the R160 comes in, the 38's are going first along with selected R40's and R42's. The roofs on the R38 is in deplorable condition and I think none of them got the black floor so that's some signs. If the St Louis cars were COMPLETELY stainless steel, then you would be saying the same thing like the R32's and the Redbirds wouldn't have eroded the way it did since they were built using carbon steel.
Then there may be another option, of about 1000-1040 cars, that would cut into the 44's and 46's as well.
Eric B. is correct about the options for up to an additional 1,040 cars, but whether these additional cars would eat into the R-44 and/or R-46 fleets has not yet become apparent. The grand total of 1,700 or so R-160s would be enough to replace all R-32 through R-42 cars, with about 100 left over, hardly enough to make more than a small dent in the 1,000-plus R-44/R-46 fleets (especially since they'd be 60-footers replacing 75-footers).
David
Because I thought the first option would replace all the old 60 ft. cars.
Are the R38's that bad? I assume that they're like the R32's or am I wrong?
The R32 and R38 look identical but as for the structure, the R32 comes out on top, because of the overhaul.
They don't look identical at all. The R-32 is (supposedly) in better shape because the entire body is stainless steel, not because of the overhaul.
Personally, I find the R-38 far more attractive (inside and out) and much more passenger-friendly.
I like both of them, and yes they do look identical, they are also sometimes MUed together, your average subway ride would not now that though.
They don't look identical, they look similar. The reason the R-38 is inferior has nothing to do with the GOH, it has to do with the fact that it is not completely stainless steel, the R32 is.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the work I meant to use, my bad.
That's the word I meant to use, my bad.
The insides of the R32 and R38 are very similar so I really don't see attraction however the R32 has far better lighting. On the outside, I agree with you but overall the R32 IS the better car and is one of my favorites. If the 32 had been able to retain the outside configuration[at the bonnet where the dinky flip dot is currently at], it would look more attractive on the bonnet area.
There are two glaring interior differences: the handholds and the lighting.
The R-32 handholds were apparently designed to be looked at but not used -- they're very high up, and they vanish entirely by the doors, where they're arguably most needed. The R-38 handholds swoop down by the doors and are a pleasure to use.
And I find the R-38 lighting superior. The backlit ads give off more light than the light strips on the R-32 and they're more attractive.
(I'm not referring here to the R-32GE, of course, which has the R-38 interior.)
I don't understand why so many here prefer the R-32 to the R-38. In addition to the above, the R-38 has a much more classy exterior and seems to be slightly quieter when in motion (and the doors don't squeak as they close). The R-32 wins only in terms of its stainless steel body.
That said, the R-32 is quite photogenic at the right angle:
I like that forecast, but I believe that the R44 is not crappy, you can ask anyone on this board, I am in LOVE with the R44. It would be cool, if they can rebuild the R44/46 to a modernized equipment, this would be the first two NYC Subway Car Classes to recieve this modification and will be like the current High Tech Cars, except the exterior and some the interior will be different, they really NEED to replace the traction motors on the subway units also.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I'm shocked that the R44's weren't given a GOH to make them compatible with the R46.
It would be nice if the R44 and R46 were compatible, the R46 is very quiet.
The R38, R40, R40M, and R42 will all be gone before they even touch an R44. The R32's are very good cars, and a slight chance they will scrap some R44's before the R32's go, but probably the R32's will go also before the R44.
Nah!! The R32 have superior construction and the held up great, I believe the R44's will be scrapped before the R32's(NOOOO!!!).
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
The R44's cannot run on the C. 600' trains would be excessive, 300' trains too short. No other combo can be run. The only way the R44's leave the A line is if they're transferred to another shop.
Look for the R143's to replace the R38's on the A, though.
R-46 ran on the (then) CC when in 1980 the R-10s went to the E/F line while the R-46s were getting their Rockwell trucks fixed. These were 6 car trains (450') and ran for almost a year.
True, but at the time R46s were not permanently coupled into four-car sets. So then they could run a six-car train of R46s on the CC. They were made into permanent four-car sets during GOH. That was also why the were able to run three-car R46 trains on the JFK Express (the Express was eliminated, if I'm not mistaken, while the R46 were being overhauled).
All R44's are permanently coupled into 4 car sets. That means 4 or 8 car trains. Nothing else. There are some 2-car R46 sets, but these aren't assigned to the C and are to few in number to make enough 6-car C trains to equip the whole fleet.
The R143 order is done, they are all going to the L Line and the rest of the Eastern Division. The R160's will be appearing on the A Line. And a few months ago they were testing 600' Trainsets on the C Line, I happen to be on that test going to Euclid Avenue, so MAYBE they will extend the C Line from 480' - 600'.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R142 #8265
It is NOt definite that the R160s will be operated anywhere EXCEPT FOR THE BROADWAY ELEVATED. It is not known where else they would run, and as far as I know, it has not been decided
Umm... Yes it is, the R143's will be running mostly on the L Line and some of the Eastern Division, the R160 order will probably cover the rest(MAYBE).
Actually, it has been decided. Enough R-160s (320 cars) will be in 4-car sets to finish out the "Eastern Division" (J/Z and M at the moment).
David
After the Eastern Division, I would think that R-160 assignment may depend upon the status of CBTC. If we are at the point of it being installed on other BMT-IND lines, then those lines will get the R-160 first.
Why would running 8-car R44 on the "C" be any different than running 8-car R46 on the "V"?
wayne
They already run short (480') C trains. If the decision is made to run 600' trains on the C, then it's certainly possible to use the R44. The decision to run the R46 on the V has more to do with attracting ridership than meeting demands.
IMHO, it would be a mistake to run the R44 on the C. The riders clearly favor the 75' over the 60' cars, even if they're new.
Actually, one day in December, I did see an R44 C train pull into 125 Street (complete with a C Luminator sign). Needless to say, I waited for the next C train, which was an R32.
You mean the future R160; R143's are staying on the Eastern division L and M[weekends]. Whenever the R160's come, I expect the R38 and some R40's and R42's to go; since some have the new floors I assume they will stay longer.
Good work. But stop. You're scaring me. In a few years, all I'll have left are my photos. And the only escape will be if trolley museums save some of each car class.
Take Pride,
Brian
Most of the lines will look the same. It's going to be like what happened to the diesel lines of the LIRR. When the GP38's, F's, and MP15's were running, you never knew what you would get when a train came. Each engine had individual character (especially the F's), and even if they didn't, the variety of classes made it interesting. Since the new diesel trains came, I have rarely photographed the LIRR anymore. I still like it, but much of the fun is gone.
I can't believe that when the R143-160, and R142 order is complete, and the scrapping of the R32-42 is complete, I will probably have to be nostalgic for a R62 or R46.....or worse yet an R68!!!!!!!!! Arghhhhh! The future does look bleak!!!!!
Oh give it up! You can't expect the old stuff to be rolling around forever. Trains die, just like people do.
He understands that! He DID SAY the future is going to look bleak when all the R32-R42's are scrapped and we have to look at 75 footers, R62's, R142's, R143's and the future R160 on the regular [I think it will be 'stink' too :-( but we have to move on]. Also, all of the trains currently with railfan windows [R32,R38,R40,R40M,R42 and the remaining R33/R36] will be a thing of the past; only the half cab R62A's will have RF windows.
Ladies and gentlemen, say hello to, : SMEAR-O-VISION. The R62's have little windows to look through, and you'll have those for another 20 years. The RF window isn't dead.
I said that it will only be the 62's & 62A's with the Railfan window one day UNLESS by "luck", the R160's are built with half cabs; unlikely but you never know. Most of the time, the tiny square window is covered by paper [by T/O's] so that decreases the chances of looking through that so the only REAL RF window would be the R62A cars that it's last digit is not a 1,5,6 and 0 running the north end[only the 3 and 7 trains has this but you'll have a better chance on the 7]. When they removed the window to the left of the cab door, the second RF window was taken away.
What would lead one to conclude that the five-car units are going to come in before the four-car units do? (I don't know whether they are or they aren't, but I'm curious as to the reasoning or the source.)
David
The 5 Car Units are likely to come because most of the IND Lines and some of the BMT Line consist of 600' Lenghth and needs the 5 Car Units, and the 600' Lines have old equipment that needs to be replaced, like the A Line.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
The same can be said of the 4-car units. Try again.
David
I think the 5 Car Units have a better chance of coming first.
I was under the understanding the 4 car units came first to give the Eastern Division entirely new cars.
Does the contract call for compatibility between the R143 and the R160? I think it should.
The contract calls for the R-160 to be SO compatible with the R-143 that nobody, passengers nor maintainers, is supposed to be able to tell the difference between the two.
David
I'm hoping they will at least upgrade the exterior signs (currently single color) and interior signs (currently tri-color RYG only) to full color LED's like the new Clear Channel signs. The prices have really come down (as low as $2-4 a piece). Also to digitize the strip maps, so they can be changed electronically instead of removing plastic when the line is changed. There are various technologies that can be used for this.
Also, many left handed people would like to see an additional controller for them. (only one or the other would be activated at a time with separate control key slots).
Also, use vapor keys on the intercar spring compartments. Do you know how hard it is to use the R-9 key on those, when you're hanging on to the grab iron with the other hand, and you don't have much room on the anticlimber on the side to stand on? (And the key has to be placed i a certain way too!)
I'm getting ready to send in these suggestions.
I also forgot: the full color is available in "daylight visible" now (like the single color red and amber they opted for last time). Hence, the new ad signs are quite visible outdoors.
And if they retofit the 143's (as well as 142's) with these changes, then they will make good on their aim to make the cars indistinguishable.
The Bulletin said that the first two pilot test trains delivered will be 5 car units, so I assumed they would be starting with those.
Interesting. R142s come in five car sets. R160s are so much longer.
I wouldn't want to work a barn in 'troubles' with these trainsets as ten car units.........walking the line is too far. Perhaps it's the R143 regressement...five car units with shorter headway ala CBTC. More 5 car trainsets OPTO in the contracts fine print. CI peter
It seems that the terms "abandoned" and "disused" are used almost interchangeably with reference to subway and el trackage and facilities. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I've always felt that "disused" facilities are those tracks and structures that are not currently being used but are being maintained by NYCT as if they were in use, with a possible eye toward perhaps using them someday. "Abandoned", on the other hand, means that NYCT has stopped using the facilities and has no intention to ever use them again, for various reasons and will eventually demolish them.
Examples of "abandoned" facilities:
1) Chambers Street side platform
2) 18th Street/Park Ave South
3) Worth Street/Park Ave South
4) 91st Street/Broadway
5) Myrtle Avenue,
6) Ninth Avenue shuttle platforms
and others.
Examples of "disused" facilities:
1) Chrystie Street connector;
2) Bergen Street lower
and others.
You just pointed out the differences between abandoned and disused. For exapmle, the CI bound Sea Beach express track is abandoned, most of it was ripped out. Now take the Culver and Astoria express tracks, those are currently disused but may come back into service in the future.
I know I did, but some people at this site use the terms interchangeably.
Well, nothing you could do about that; it will continue to happen in the future. Abandoned-->closed stations; disused-->unused express tracks & connections. I think they'll get it.
i would be more inclined to state they are disused.
to abandon is for (least in my book) the owner to walk way from the property and leave it to rot.
unused stations and the like, while in poor condition, are still inspected, and the city still clearly owns them. they are maintained structurally though not comsmetically, and are subject to being used as storage areas for work equipment, installation of utility closets, etc. at any time.
in another post tracks such as the astoria express are labeled 'disused'... it can and is used at a moment's notice. it was used just the other day when a broken rail took out the local. it is more 'generally inactive' than 'disused'.
just my opinion.
I think that is a great observation, and very acurate.
Examples of:
-Abandoned Subway Tracks - Myrtle Ave leads to old El between Central Ave and Myrtle Ave.
-Disused Subway Tracks - Tracks in the lower 9th Ave Station.
-Inactive Subway Tracks - West End Express Track.
You are correct I believe tecnically, and I think everyone just about covered it.
I would like to just add this interesting tidbit though. Somewhere I read that the old LIRR Rockaway line has never officially been abandoned. That is why trees are literally growing through the rails. In theory, the line is "disused" and not "abandoned". When a line is officially abandoned, within a short time after the abandonment, the rails and ties are ripped up and salvaged, such as was done with the LIRR Wading River Branch, and the Central Branch, etc.
However, I guess it's safe to say (even if not officially) that the Rockaway Branch is indeed "abandoned":
Sorry Chris, but after you posted those pictures I heard through the grapevine that a train went through the wrong switch at Whitepot and wandered onto the Rockaway Branch. I ran out to the same station platform you were at and snapped this picture!
HeHe, let's here it for the MTA, "Going Our Way".
The LIRR should use that photo on all their future publicity material.....sort of like they still use the R110B's.
Cops doctoring photos. Tsk tsk ... what is the world coming to? :)
What do you mean doctoring. I can't believe you didn't read about the LIRR train that went through a switch the wrong way at White Pot Junction and ended up at Ozone Pk Station. It would have made it to Aqueduct but there was a big spider in the way by Liberty.
It could happen! Years ago, a Metroliner found itself enroute to Port Wash because its engineer accepted an incorrectly set switch...I wish I could have been on the first train to stop at OP in over 40 years...that's a track capacity of 2 tpc (trains per century). ;-)
What is OP?
Ozone Park.
Yup, he meant OP to be Ozone Park. The picture of the abandoned station however is the old LIRR Woodhaven Station (Woodhaven Blvd and Atlantic Ave), not Ozone Park.
The angle of carbodsky with respect to platform does seem a bit off (used to do video authenticity work for some "agencies") but no, never heard the story ... tell me a story (and DON'T give me that line from "48 hours" about Reggie Hammond's FAVORITE story). :)
The angle of carbodsky with respect to platform does seem a bit off
Ahh, it's just a little gap. They got "Watch the Gap" signs on the LIRR electrics, so it must've been fine. I'm a bit more concerned with how the train made it over the Montauk Branch in Glendale where the bridge burned down a few years back. Let's give the MTA a hand. Some quick thinking dispatcher must've ordered a NYA freight train rushed over and parked on the Montauk branch where bride used to be so the above pictured M1 could easily glide across.....
No offense intended, but it did look like a cut and paste job. If that M1 really WAS there, then Lucy's got some splainin' to do. :)
Seeing is believing. Who am I to doubt Jeff? Pictures don't lie now do they. I'm not even going to mention the warm pocket of weather they must've been having around there today when Jeff snapped this remarkable shot. The rest of the city is suffering with snow, and there it's so warm that the trees blossomed already.
Anyway, which is more likely....A photo of a train of M1's at Woodhaven Station, or the set of LoV's they have at stored in 76th Street Station? At least we can physically stand at Woodhaven Station without getting abducted by aliens.
Oh I forgot, we already have a photo of an R10 at 76th.......
I think I've got a shot of Arnines with Klatu Barata Nikto at the controls. :)
Okay that settles it.
Now that the tracks are open once again to WhitePot, let's celebrate and take an R9 out as the first fantrip over the once forested line...first photo run-by.....Woodhaven station, followed by a photo of the ASPCA picking up some huge rare spider that I heard was injured somewhere over in Ozone Park.
Deal! You sign out the train, get me my paperwork and GO's and away we go. :)
And for those that think I lost my mind with this spider thing, and have no idea what that means - See Here
Not to mention Paul Bunyan and his blue ox running ahead of the train, chopping down all those trees on the ROW...;-)
Not to mention Paul Bunyan and his blue ox running ahead of the train, chopping down all those trees on the ROW...;-)
This being New York, Paul Bunyan would join the Treecutter's Union and demand $50 per hour plus full benefits. The ox would settle for $25 per hour, however.
No no no no no ... you don't understand how radio works.
First, a study group would be formed to examine the "tree problem" and meanwhile, an Environmental Impact Study would commence. While hearings are ongoing, the study group would develop specifications for a tree-puller machine and let out bids to politically connected vendors. Five years later, and $6.5 billion over budget, a tree puller machine would be delivered that would go up in flames as soon as it was started. :)
["Oh I forgot, we already have a photo of an R10 at 76th"]
And look who's operating!!!
(And he's gonna say this one is doctored too!!)
My head wouldn't get THAT swelled in no freakin' SMEE R-10 type tuna can. Only get THAT swollen in an Arnine. Moo. :)
I wonder if anyone ever took a photo from a platform of you in the cab on a D train.:)
I'm sure someone did. When I was a conductor, had a number of tourists take pictures of themselves and me here and there. Bid high on eBay is all I can advise. :)
Let me guess - you were perched on the step plates every time, right?:)
Once or twice when they took the shot on the platform. Far more often though it was up against the cab door in the car with a couple of folks around me while the train was rolling. Dunno why folks feel the need to take photos of conductors to prove they were in NYC, you'd think the subway car itself would have been sufficient. :)
>>> Dunno why folks feel the need to take photos of conductors to prove they were in NYC, <<<
If you think you had it tough, how about the guards at Buckingham Palace before they moved them inside the gates and gave them police protection.
Tom
Yeah, I know more than a few people who went over there to try to make them crack a smile, react or ANYTHING. (tough house) Mind ya, I didn't mind the touristas at all, so long as they didn't keep me from doing my job (and they didn't interfere at all) ... I just found it amusing that conductors were in such demand for tourista photos. :)
Must have been the uniform.:)
It WAS a fine monkey suit. :)
Jeff, did that M-1 have wings ? I'm sure you know the trestle over the LIC branch burned down years ago !
Bill "Newkirk"
The lower level Canal St station on the N (now W) was "disused" for 10 years. The station became known as the "DEAD PLATS" and it certainly looked abandoned, with trash piling up to astonishing levels on the trackbeds. Gee, does a 10-year station closure qualify as "disused" or would that be a decade-long "abandonment"?
Nope, its disused since Canal St LL was reactivated in 2001. Actually, it never closed [see below] but no trains ran there of course. Man was that station FILTHY, especially on the Brooklyn bound side where it was a eyesore and the Manhattan bound platform [the good side] was only used for transfers from 12/90-7/01.
And the rats there (the FOUR-legged kind) grew to astonishing sizes too. The TA should have deployed them to eat all the other rats infesting the system...
Yeah they should eat the Montague rats, would make Fred feel better ;-).
A better term would be Out of Service. Out of Service implies that although the whatever is currently not being used and may be in disrepair, there does exist the ability to return the whatever to active use again. An example of something that is out of service is the PATCO Franklin Square Station. The official term for abandonned generally implies a change in some legal ownership status, but for our lay use here it would generally mean tracks ripped out, platform crumbling, etc. The station on the old Polo Grounds shuttle would classify as abandonned.
Just saw a report on NY1 refering to KEVIN Walsh's Forgotten NY website. But they said your name was KEITH. I cannot find it on NY1s website.
"KEITHS" SITE 8-)
Kudos to Mr Walsh.
Peace,
ANDEE
Congrats, Kevin [Keith LOL :-P]! You're website is very intersting.
HEH, yea, they only refer to him as Keith on the air report. The text report calls him Kevin.
Peace,
ANDEE
Keith? Are they going to review Radio and Orpheum's sites next?
FOUND IT! HERE IS THE STORY
Peace,
ANDEE
The report might be appearing in a print edition of Entertainment Wekly, as that is where the source of the article is from (see the bottom of the link SUBWAYSURF provided.
Attaboy, Keit-ah, Kevin!
(Oh by the way, the picture of Childs' Restaurant you have in your COney Island section - you can add that in early 2003, it was designated a NY landmark.)
--Mark
Atta boy, Keith! (Uh I mean Kevin) :)
Forgotten New York is an great site. Very well done and educational too. I always look forward for his latest installment.
Bill "Newkirk"
I concur. It and oldnyc.com are quality surfing material. His new Culver Shuttle page is great.
Kevin's been running forgotten-ny.com for a few years, and it might be reasonable to expect that it would have become a little "stale," for lack of a better term. Yet that hasn't happened; the new installments are just as interesting as the early ones. It sure must take a lot of work and dedication on his part.
Kevin has alot of help from us Subtalkers & Bustalkers. www.nycsubway.org has a large number of links from Kevins Site.
Congrats!
"Keith" can poste a mention of the story on his site, and credit it to "Cablevision's" NY1 newschannel. That ought to get the AOL Time-Warner people's attention if they check back at the site.
Keith, eh? Keith Richard? Keith Hernandez? Keith ("98.6")? Keith Relf? (uh, he's dead)
I wish they woulda told ME I'd be on.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was just looking over the contruction methods brochure. Actually, it's better than I thought -- they think they can do TBM all the way down to 14th Street. And once you have one of those things in the ground, no reason not to keep it going.
One problem -- they plan on unloading the till from the street. That's going to raise lots of community opposition/lawsuit issues. At least once the TBM reaches 63rd Street (assuming it comes down from the north), I think they should pull out the till using work trains. We need to buy a new fleet of them anyway.
Fortunately, they don't need many sites to do that. It really isn't going to be a major issue. It will get worked out.
If they do it the same way they built the Red Line up Connecticut/Wisconsin Aves. when I was living in DC, the fill will be taken out at the sites where the stations will be located. In the areas where there were no stations, the street itself was virtually unchanged, while at the stations, they used cut-and-cover with wooden planks and barricade detours, last seen in midtown Manhattan when the IND extension from 53rd St. to CPS was built in the 1960s and early 1970s.
The people living closest to the stations will benefit in the long run, but in the short run, they'll have to put up with the bulk of the construction hassles. Given the normal NIMBY quotent, I'm sure there will be enough litigious area residents who want the station entrances near their homes, but won't abide the two- to four-year annoyance of actually getting the thing built.
"If they do it the same way they built the Red Line up Connecticut/Wisconsin Aves. when I was living in DC, the fill will be taken out at the sites where the stations will be located. In the areas where there were no stations, the street itself was virtually unchanged, while at the stations, they used cut-and-cover with wooden planks and barricade detours, last seen in midtown Manhattan when the IND extension from 53rd St. to CPS was built in the 1960s and early 1970s."
Cut and cover is unavoidable at station sites. However, the brochure does say that fill extraction WILL NOT be done at all station sites. If I recall correctly what I read, it specifies very specific locations and conditions for it. MTA thought about this.
"The people living closest to the stations will benefit in the long run, but in the short run, they'll have to put up with the bulk of the construction hassles."
See my comment above. It won't be as bad this time.
"Given the normal NIMBY quotent, I'm sure there will be enough litigious area residents who want the station entrances near their homes, but won't abide the two- to four-year annoyance of actually getting the thing built. "
They won't have a choice. They'll scream, yell, vent, whine like the crybabies and children that they are, and then they'll get over it. MTA will have plenty of lollipops and pacifiers handy to stick in their mouths.
And won't you know it - they'll be the first to ride the new train line. In fact, they'll boast that they alone got it accomplished through their generosity and willingness to cooperate!
Actually, the people who will suffer the most will be the merchants. Their deliveries will get totally screwed up.
They also don't usually live in the neighborhood. They often drive in and hog a meter all day.
None of this is a reason not to do the SAS, though. But you will hear screams of devastation to the economic viability of the neighborhood, likely bankruptcies, etc. Everything you heard with the PATH entrances, multiplied 50-fold.
"Actually, the people who will suffer the most will be the merchants. Their deliveries will get totally screwed up."
That's not unique to subway construction. Anytime a new building goes up, or a new sewer line gets put in, streets can be temporarily closed, entrances blocked off. You just have to make alternate arrangements.
"But you will hear screams of devastation to the economic viability of the neighborhood, likely bankruptcies, etc. Everything you heard with the PATH entrances, multiplied 50-fold."
This is one time when MTA's having a deaf ear to these whiny Twinkies (or at least a hearing aid they can turn down some) is actually an advantage...:0)
"That's not unique to subway construction."
Agreed. But there's no point whining when a new building goes up. The developer doesn't care, and the press doesn't care because there's no story.
But when the MTA creates an inconvenience, it's newsworthy, and the people being inconvenienced can say "Look what the terrible government is doing to us."
Makes you want to throw yourself off a building to end it all, doesn't it?
:0)
The same thing happened when the original light rail line was being built along Welton St. in Denver. The street was torn up and business went way down at establishments, and owners complained. Then an amazing thing happened once the line opened - business took off! People could hop on a train to one of those business spots and then go back to work downtown or wherever they may have come from.
That's when you wish Foghorn Leghorn would yell back, "Ahhhhhhhhh, shut up!!!!!!!!"
Where's that rooster when you need him?
Probably busy with Rhode Island Red, that is...:0)
Second Avenue construction methods? How about the "nothing" method?
There is another article about the homeless heading for the subway to get out of the cold, and their preference for the "E" train since it doesn't come out of the ground.
The homeless say they don't want to go to shelters, which is where the MTA wants them to go. Neighborhoods don't want shelters. If the city starts handing out a free housing unit to everyone sleeping on a train, they might as well use the schools for housing, because new people will show up for each one housed, and there will be no money left for education anyway.
If they didn't stink up and soil the trains, and take all the room away from the riding public, perhaps housing the homeless on the trains is the least bad solution. They can be watched over and protected by social workers and police (if you know where they are, perhaps the police won't be needed). They aren't loose in any one's neighborhood. It isn't so comfy people will move here to do it, but it isn't so bad there will be suffering.
So perhaps when the R160s roll in, they should keep some of the old trains as homeless specials. They all have bench seating, after all. The city could install facilities for the homeless -- soup kitchens, wash up areas, bathrooms, etc. -- next to the Pitkin, Concourse, and 207th Street Yard, and special platforms could be build there for access. There could be a bathroom stop at the end of each trip.
The trains could run local and pick up from 11 pm to midnight, run non-stop (making way for revenue trains) from midnight to 5 a.m., and drop off from 5 a.m to 6 a.m. before returning to the yard. They could be shifted around to other lines at other times during the night -- if the doors aren't opened, it doesn't matter if they run outside.
It may seem like a bizzare solution. Well, it is a bizzare solution. But it does seem to be the option people choose for themselves, and no one seems to mind but the passengers and the people who have to clean up. So, eliminate the passengers. And hire some WEPs (maybe the homeless themselves) to clean the train during the day. The MO could be stay out of the system during the day, and don't bother anybody, and you can ride the trains at night.
I ride "late night" or to me early in the morning. I love watching people run from the homeless car that is stinking to high heaven at the next stop.
EEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
smelled the same thing while going home.
til next time
I had that happen to me once Lou, years ago I was taking a late night class, got on the train, everyone was piled into one car, I noticed that the next car was virtually empty, I walked towards the car a man grabbed my arm and said "you dont want to go in there buddy" Being full of youth and myself, I smirked and pulled back the door, two homeless guys were sitting in the car and the smell gagged me and made my eyes water, and sicked my gut, I slammed the door and retreated, in a quick haste, the first person I saw-you guessed it the guy who warned me he was laughing at me.The smell in that car was unreal
Y'know, we need to give each of those smelly bums some deoderant spray or perfume to cover up the stink.
A shower would work better.
This may sound silly to many of you, but is it possible the city could build a few public showers for the homeless? Soap, water and towels shouldn't be that much of an expense and at least those in the street can maintain a little dignity by at least smelling clean. I know some of these people are lazy bums but I do know of cases where many people once middle class wind up on the street. It does happen. I just believe no one should have to be filthy when something could be done at little expense. And a bowl of tomato or chicken noodle soup with a slice or two of bread wouldn't bankrupt anyone either. It is just not a dignfied way to have to live.
i agree..but the argument will be that the city has shelters for exactly the reasons you point out..unfortunatly many homeless deem them unsafe..i especially feel for them with this cold snap we're experiencing.
When we do inspections, the trainset is NOT cleaned out for our safety. We have no idea of what the 'leavings' could bring us. I do my best to protect my health. 'Bum runs' should include chlorine bleach showers. The subways are no place for the 'homeless.' Passenger and system safety are a priority. CI Peter
CI Pete: No way did I mean to imply that it is all right for the homeless to ride the trains all night. They should not be allowed to. What should be made available to them is a place to take a shower and get one hot meal a day---soup and bread would not bankrupt anyone.
Car cleaning crews can shpritz down any homeless people they encounter.
Or let 'em ride through the yard car wash.
It's not like it's not cold during the day, too. I rarely ride the
trains late at night but certainly see homeless people on the platforms and trains during the day. I'm not sure they'd acede to leaving their trains to the rest of us in the daytime.
This reminds me of my first jolt when seeing homeless people in Florida. They were dark or weathered-red skinned from the sun It was a shock to realize that exposure to the sun was a real enemy to the homeless there and would lead to ruddy homeless faces, unlike the many pallid homeless faces here.
Gotta give it to you, Larry, you've got a great imagination!
(Gotta give it to you, Larry, you've got a great imagination!)
Hey, I'm just extrapolating what I see. The guy with the great imagination is the Mayor, who came up with the homeless cruise ships.
Well, if they did pick up your idea, at least they could restore the H(omeless) train designation...
And have 76th St as the terminal.
"So perhaps when the R160s roll in, they should keep some of the old trains as homeless specials. They all have bench seating, after all. The city could install facilities for the homeless -- soup kitchens, wash up areas, bathrooms, etc. -- next to the Pitkin, Concourse, and 207th Street Yard, and special platforms could be build there for access. There could be a bathroom stop at the end of each trip."
Sorry Larry.....although the subways are considered "public" transit, the subways are for transporting people and not housing them. Of course the most bizarre part of your solution is how to fund this. And spare me any talk of another tax.
Bill "Newkirk"
So perhaps when the R160s roll in, they should keep some of the old trains as homeless specials. They all have bench seating, after all. The city could install facilities for the homeless -- soup kitchens, wash up areas, bathrooms, etc. -- next to the Pitkin, Concourse, and 207th Street Yard, and special platforms could be build there for access. There could be a bathroom stop at the end of each trip.
The trains could run local and pick up from 11 pm to midnight, run non-stop (making way for revenue trains) from midnight to 5 a.m., and drop off from 5 a.m to 6 a.m. before returning to the yard. They could be shifted around to other lines at other times during the night -- if the doors aren't opened, it doesn't matter if they run outside.
I've heard stranger ideas in my time ... but I certainly can't think of any. New York already is a magnet for skells from all over. Having special skell trains will just make a bad situation even worse.
The reason the homeless end up on the subways is because they are the warmest alternative to going into a shelter -- not because they're railfans. In the shelters, they are often robbed of their few posessions and also subject to being "harassed" by the administrators if they show up intoxicated or high.
Your solution just creates a homeless shelter on a train. They won't want to go there anymore than they want to go to a neighborhood shelter.
So you'd have a bunch of empty "homeless specials" running the system, and you'd still have hundreds of individuals riding the in-service trains.
(Of course, we all know what would happen if you ran the oldest equiptment as an express around the system with no passengers -- Nightly Railfan Specials!!!)
CG
Personally, I think that instead of junking the older subway units they should be turned into lo-income housing. There are all sorts of places on the system where the cars could be parked. That place where the culver shuttle came out would be one.
(Personally, I think that instead of junking the older subway units they should be turned into lo-income housing. There are all sorts of places on the system where the cars could be parked. That place where the culver shuttle came out would be one. )
Misses the point. Then the shelter would be someplace, in someone's neighborhood. And that's the last thing anyone wants.
>>> Well, it is a bizzare solution. But it does seem to be the option people choose for themselves, <<<
Only a small percentage of the homeless choose the subways, and they are the ones who do not want to go to a conventional shelter, usually because they do not want to conform to the rules. If homeless riding on the subway were approved and institutionalized, there would have to be similar rules as in the shelters. Now there is only about one homeless person per car or less. If you are going to pack the cars as rolling dormitories, there would have to be rules such as no weapons, drugs or alcohol, and someone to enforce the rules.
Nor could it be approved because of the lack of water and sanitary facilites. It would be a substandard homeless shelter.
Tom
"Only a small percentage of the homeless choose the subways, and they are the ones who do not want to go to a conventional shelter, usually because they do not want to conform to the rules."
In Philadelphia, there is one group of street counselors who have found a small amount of housing and made it available to hard-core street people without requiring that they lose their syringes or drug habits. It's a controversial program, and I wonder what the counselors do when the addicts get visits from their (possibly armed) drug dealers (the neighbors wouldn't appreciate that) - but it does get them off the streets.
after school today i took a C train(i was going to b,way junction to
take the J to marcy av,live close to that station)bweetwen shepherd av
and van siclen av,some TT(transit tech)kid(don,t know who,i was on the
last car of the train R38#4127)pulled the emergency break,me and a
friend of mine ended getting stuck in the tunnels for 8-10 min,a TA
worker had to walk along the tunnels walkway to get on the train.
once the train got rolling(it was a slow start)to van siclen av.then
i geuss the T/O decided to take the train out of service.while we were
stuck,saw 3 c line running from euclid av express to b,way junction.
some of those transit tech kid just don,t think right.at euclid av
sometimes when the trains about to pull out,the kids just hold the doors,for their other friend,or just to cause problems.sometimes they
end up call for transit police to fix things.(any body here go to transit tech?)i remember one time this kid was holding the doors and
this signel working argued with the kid,telling the kid to let the doors go,but the kid taunted him and the kid ran(like as if the didn,t want a peice of him).
first off,has anyone here been in a problem like this(someone pulls the emergency and the train gets stuck).and is it normal for that train to just go out of service after stuck like that for more then
5 min or more.
and has anyone been to euclid av on weekday bweetwen 2:40pm and 3:40
and seen those kids hold the doors for nothing.
til next time
Happens on the northbound Q Express everyday when school lets out... that'd be Grady High School.
Well the C Train is worse, BELIEVE ME!
There is a particular zoo that lets out at East New York, I believe. I never say High School. I always say zoo.
They needed to lock up the storm doors because they were too dumb to stay in the cara few years ago, fell and got ran over, over a busy street interection. I've been on trains where they pulled the cord at every stop. My sister was on a train 2 days ago where they took the train out of service to lock the storm doors, did a battery run (skipping Kings Highway and Newkirk Avenue) to make up the time only to have those kids to pull the cord midway through Kings Highway. Sister got to school in Manhattan 25 minutes late...
I go to Transit Tech, I know all the kids who be causing the problems, that's the first time they done that, I remember they discharged the C Train 3 days in a row and kicked us off at Van Siclen Ave., usually when that happens they always send C Train Express to Bway. I remeber about 3 weeks ago the C Train didnt even get out of Euclid Ave. yet and they pulled the emgergency brake and started fighting and next thing you know I see madd cops coming down the stairs, what seem to look like the entire precinct and arrested 2 kids and they sent the upcoming C Train Express. It's kinda fun, you probably seen me before on that Train, because I have 8th period lunch and sometimes I stay after skool to chill with my friends.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I notice they always call Transit Police on the PA at Euclid Also, "We need Transit Police on the Northbound C Train".
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Looks like Transit Tech is one hell of a school. I'd hate to think future transit workers would come from that school. I'm not saying all the kids there are bad, but sheesh, pulling the emergency cord for the sheer hell of it. I don't see anything fun about that.
Almost went to Transit Tech back in 1991. Being my parents wouldn't let me go( the neighborhood led to their decision), I went to Sheepshead Bay if only for 2 months before being expelled. Yes, during Freshman Year. But I found solace at James Madison High School and became a better person. Made it on time, too. Class of 1995.
'95 Madison graduate? My boy went Madison around the same time. Im a '95 graduate of Murrow. One of many high schools along the Brighton.
Da Beastmaster
Also graduated from Cunningham JHS in 1991. If you went to this school, you must remember our principal's everyday words on the morning announcements:
"WALK, WALK, WALK
READ, READ, READ
WRITE, WRITE, WRITE"
And the ever terrifying:
"No student at Cunningham JHS should be riding the subway!"
"Chewing gum in class = 30 days detention."
Our sincerest thanks and regrets to Mr. Isidore L. Karbel, Principal
Ret. June, 1991.
And the ever terrifying:
"No student at Cunningham JHS should be riding the subway!"
Why would anyone say that?
Yup, I know exactly what you are talking about Acela. I used to go to Transit Tech [I finished at New Utrecht though in June 2002] and those problems on the C was COMMON. Some of these kids really used to ACT THE FOOL, especially in the last car since many kids got off at ENY and Franklin Av [I used to get off at Franklin for the shuttle then catch the D or Q]. I could tell you a *BUNCH* of stories about the C. Kids did the same thing on the A, if it came before the C left Euclid they would hold the doors like crazy too. Man when I had 8th period lunch was I glad I had it, I had almost no problems but when I got out after 8th, it SUCKED! We used to have early Mondays at TT where we got out at 1:10 pm [12:35 if you had 8th period lunch] but then it stopped all of a sudden and I assume its still the same schedule every day.
I remember those times when the C used to go out of service, they throw everyone off the train and we have to wait for the next one. The emergency brake thing happened to me a few times and guess where it happened--Van Siclen Av LOL! I used to see C's running express sometimes to get back on schedule. When I was a sophmore, one time cops came on the C train at Bway-East New York, these same kids I saw a lot would act stupid in the last car, kicking the door for entry into the cab on the R32's. One time out of nowhere cops came on the train getting a call that a few kids we're acting rowdy and people pointed them out and they got taken away and we're sent to the Transit Ploice District 33 booth at ENY. Since then, I never saw those kids on the C again until I transferred out of TT and finished up at NU.
I had 8th period lunch 2 years in a row, this is my second year here and I like it, Man you should the A Line now, the don't play!! They don't do that stuff on the A Line, they always on the C Line now, and I witnessed kids I know kicking in the Cab Doors and talking on the PA and controlling the lights, I remember they shut the lights off in the last 4 Cars of the C Train, but the C/R got them back on. 8th Period lunch gets out at 1:58pm now, before it was 1:45 pm (sigh). I get off at Nostrand Ave.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Damn, they made the school day longer, ouch. I LOVED 8th period lunch, getting out at 1:45pm (in my 2nd freshman semester & 1st sophmore term) [now 1:58 for you]. You really missed out on the early Mondays man freshman year I got out at 1:10pm [12:35 if you had 8 period lunch, which I didn't my very first term] for the first few weeks until it got cancelled :-\. So they still start at 8:25-8:30am or do they start earlier? Man, if you get 0 period for science I feel sorry for you & it STINKS! I used to have it for 1 semester, it started at 7:42am and I got a 40 in that b/c I only made it like FOUR-SIX times LOL. I'm sorry but that was TOO EARLY for me.
Back to the topic, I remember kids on the C used to announce foolishness often from the last car overriding the C/R and THAT'S how the cops found them, I forgot to put that in my last post.
Sadly I had Zero period today(sigh), now it starts at 7:37 am, and What the Hell???!!! That's not right, we don't have early Monday's!(sighhhhhh).
Well, it's no longer in the Last Car, it's in the 6th or 7th Car now.
-AcelaExpress2005 R143 #8265
They stopped the early Mondays since I was a freshman in 1998 b/c SUPPOSEDLY a parent complained which I think was BS, boy we were ANGRY but soon it became a afterthought. 7:37am now, geez and if you lived further away it would of been worse.
Oh so the kids moved their mischief toward the middle now huh 8-).
Yup Sadly(sigh) It takes 30 mins to get to Transit Tech from my house, 10 - 15 mins on the A Train and like 7 mins from Euclid Ave. Station to Transit, and like 7-8 mins from my house to Nostrand Ave. Nostrand and maybe like a 5-7 min. wait for a train depending on my luck.
Yup those kids moved up, the Last Car has the least trouble now.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
You put a uniformed POLICE OFFICER in the last car, so he really is watching the last two cars, right?
Ehehehehe.....
Then you put an undercover cop in the next car up, disguised as a bum, and give him a can of MACE. After several weeks of this those kids should take the hint that they are being STUPID!
Besides, once those kids are eligible for parole, they will be old enough that they'll not have to go to school any more.
Elias :^)
Ummm, They really dont care if the cops on the train, I remember they had five cops on the train, they had a cop from the 4 car to the 8th Car to monitor the behavior, all the way to Bway, since thats where mostly everyone gets off at.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yeah, but they ain't gonna do too much in front of the cops.
Put an undercover cop or two on there,
let them try to hastle the cop and then mace them and arrest them.
Since they will never know which of the passengers is a cop with a mace can and which is not, they will eventually give up of the game, or will start spending time in a different facility.
Elias
That won't work, this is being going on for quite sometime now.
Maybe I should go down there and beat some sense into them.Maybe after they lose to a girl in a fight they'll stop the crap.Always gotta go for where it hurts more in a guy,thier pride and ego.And maybe thier balls too.
Ummmm... You may not wanna do that, do you know that there are gangs that ride that train??!! I can't get hurt, because Im kool with all of them :)
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yeah and...? I'm not gonna be scared away just cause of some dumbjock gang.Trust me,I'm way worse than any gang.When I'm through with them,they'll be seeing more than just bird's circling around thier head's.Word of advice:Never mess with a martial artist.
Ummmm ok (whatever) so you against half of the school, ah?
Yep,Wouldn't even take me 5mins.I'd barely break a sweat.
Ya Uh Huh.
Yea, GET EM WITH YOUR ANGER V TRAIN! While it would be nice to kick some of their asses, take it from me, Joe c & Acela [I used to go there and experienced the mischief often] its a *WHOLE LOT* of kids from TT that cause mischief so you'll be greatly outnumbered! Even if you were to beat some of the kids up, it will only get worse and EVEN more kids will cause trouble.
It's not that hard to beat them down. You just don't leave any living ones behind you.
:^)
Don't worry bout it,I beat up 5 guys once who tried to gang up on me on my way home one time.Sent them home crying to thier mommies.But to be a bit serious,it's really sad that these kids that go to a transit school of all places are so pathetic.I mean chances are,they're gonna be working for the TA some 10-20 years from now and they're acting like a bunch of 5 year old's.What I've said before is true,kids dont listen to thier parent's anymore.They just go with what goes on in thier neighborhood and disregard what thier parent's say.That's why kids these days are so rowdy.They think what they do is so wickedly cool they keep on doing it and never give a rat's ass about it. That's why we got so many drop out's and kid's smoking,which really makes me sick when I see someone smoke.All they're doing is f***ing thier life.Sooner or later,I'm gonna be smack-dab in the middle of some crime going on and bet as hell whoever is the cause of it is gonna get a royal beatdown.I'm gonna teach everyone the right thing's to do wether it be the easy way or... -cracks knuckles- my way.
You dunno how tired I am of seeing all this stupid stuff happening on TV and me not being anywhere near it.I'm just dying to make a difference.
(Sigh) suite your self. I would love to see you beat up 50% of my school (750 kids).
It's fun on the C Train.
yeha,i,d love to see that.
tru dat,it,s mad fun on the c line.
til next time
Yup.
I'd like to see the event as well...
V Train: Karate Girl! Mmm!! :D
There are 750 rotten lunatics in that school? In that case give me a week and every single one of those delinquent's will be handed a very painful lesson:Don't be stupid if you don't want me to beat you up for the rest of your life!
Me, oh I'm terrified! :)
I FEEL YOU......!!!!! And im going for my operation later this month.. still pissed that I couldn't make that trip with you and Trev.... but better to be safe than sorry.....
It's alright that you couldn't make it that day.Your health comes first thus is more important than anything else.Good luck,hope the operation goes well.
Don't worry bout it,I beat up 5 guys once who tried to gang up on me on my way home one time.Sent them home crying to thier mommies.... Sooner or later,I'm gonna be smack-dab in the middle of some crime going on and bet as hell whoever is the cause of it is gonna get a royal beatdown.I'm gonna teach everyone the right thing's to do wether it be the easy way or... -cracks knuckles- my way.
Geez V Train, all this tough talk ... are you sure you're not actually Cheryl Haworth or Lenda Murray in disguise??
Never even heard of them before.I'm just someone who really,REALLY hates stupid people and those who f*** up thier lives by doing the wrong thing and I'm hell bent on teaching them a lesson.If it turn's out to be a painful lesson then so be it,I don't care so long as they don't cause anymore trouble ever again.
That's my V Train. NARF!
yawn....
Careful,I'll go after you first.
No, go after me...
Where did you train for your martial arts skills?
Tiger Shulman's. LOL!
[Tiger Shulman's]
Oy, vey!
BTW, I didn't know V Train B47 Bus changed handles :)
Actually I trained myself.
Really? Did you manage to sport that white suit everyone has to wear??
Nah not really,when I practiced,I did so wearing my street clothes.
Hmm, not scared one bit, are you! Assuming from your comments, of course.
If anything, would you rank yourself as of a black belt?
What is a 0 period? Something they decided to add before FIRST period?
"Home room."
Zero Period is not home room, We don't report to homeroom for Zero Period, we only get homeroom three times through out the high school year, once in the beginning of the year, once between semesters (new program schedules) and once on the last day of school.
Yeah, caught your answer to Piggo in the previous. Weird practices. Years ago they referred to homeroom as "zero period" and in some other schools outside the city, "zero period" was early morning punishment detail.
Zero Period is a period before where they have you take a class for one day for the week, so basically it's just a extra class you MUST take, they also have 9th period.
Its a class that you get before the general school day starts; I had it once and I HATED IT! You may not get it every day so its kind of a special case class; Acela explained it better.
What school do you go to and what schedule do they have?
Transit Tech High School
Zero)7:37am - 8:22am
1)8:24am - 9:08am
2)9:12am - 9:57am
3)10:01am - 10:46am
4)10:50am - 11:34am
5)11:38am - 12:22pm
6)12:26pm - 1:10pm
7)1:14pm - 1:58pm
8)2:02pm - 2:46 pm
Does "Transit Tech" involve public transit, or is it just an anomalous name for a traditional high school?
BTW, even freshman and sophomores have "early release"'s?
We don't have early release anymore.
Our school is in partnership with the NYC Transit Authority, we have a train downstairs in the Rail Car Lab where the students can work on the trains and what not. The official name for our school is "East New York High School of Transit Technology".
Yup, I explained to you the now deceased early release on Mondays; the earliest you could get out is after 7th period. Ahh, I remember R30 8337 in TT, last time I saw it had Q train rollsigns. I think you have to wait until you're a junior at least to get a class in the rail car lab.
Now it has Shuttle roll signs and I believe the R Train in the front.
Speaking as an alumni of East New York 1976-1979, I can tell you that this has always been a problem. To make it stop, they have to put uniformed and un-uniformed police officers on the train. That`s how it was put to a stop in the past. It was tough to hear that my beloved airplanes were being removed from the hangar, but at least they were replaced by another of my favorites, subwaycars. East New York was a good school despite the neighborhood, you get out of it what you put in. Aviation Maintenance major class of `79, Senior Inspector for a major commercial airline. Best of luck in your studies.
Here's a solution (even though I'm not a fan of this car fleet). Transfer the R44s to the C line, and make the A line R-32 and R-38. Those doors would be harder to kick in than the R32s or the R38s. The R46s would be more rowdy-kid resistant (the cab door slides), but too bad that's Jamaica Yard equipment.
Why are there even Emergency Brakes that easy for people to pull? If the train is out of control wouldn't the conductor control that along with the Train operator? Or could they move the brakes inside the control cabs? Would make it a little harder to get at. Even though I saw a kid on the C train one night bang down the door even while a transit employee was standing there telling him not to.
If its that bad then maybe they should put those covers on the emergency brake like it is on the IRT. I don't know if there's really a alarm when you lift the emergency brake on the R62/R62A's though [as there IS a sticker that says so], it could be there to prevent mischief.
There is an alarm. When they first installed them they used to go off all by themselves. You would get up and give the box a whack to make it stop.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't know if an alarm would be a deterrant to some of these animals...but they should at least give it a try.
I never quite understood the point of the emergency brakes either...
"I never quite understood the point of the emergency brakes either..."
If a passenger sees someone being dragged, use of the emergency brakes is a very good idea. They may have only saved one or two lives over the years, but it certainly gives the riding public a more secure feeling.
A few years back, when they had a number of dragging incidents, passengers just sat there like morons. No one got up to pull the emergency cord. A few more lives could have been saved.
I have pulled the cord several times over the years. One incident i remember is on the 4 line. I was riding in the last car and there was a mother there with her 2 children, one playing with a ball. We arrived at 167th Street and, you guessed it, the ball goes bouncing out the door, kid runs after it, doors close. I did not hesitate for one minute. I got up and pulled the cord. Parent was very grateful.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, there are alarms. They should put those covers in the R32 and other car classes as well.
The chord has nothing to do with the box...it directly pulls the 'conductors valve.' The printed circuit board uses a magnet and reed switch to enable the alarm....engagement of the PEBV also activates a reed switch which lights the flashing yellow light to indicate the car which PEBV was activated. BTW: I fix those too in special inspections. One and a half years ago...the only trainsets I played with were original Lionels. I test em with cars charged. 'Ho Ho Ho Ho In The Hole In The Hole IN THE HOLE BIE.'
CI Peter
Bad Idea! The R44 cannot run on the C Line anyway, because they are made up of 4 Car Units and are 75' Long, and will be 600' instead of 480' C Train Standards. BTW, it would do no good putting the R44's on thr C Line because they will just go through the storm door(TT Kids know how to get through the storm doors on the R44), and they would still be able to get into the Cab at the South end of the Train.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Why would you want to put the more popular R44 on the lesser used C line, unless you're using the argument that it might increase C train ridership? Maybe a majority of railfans hate the 75' cars, but the majority of everyday riders prefer them.
I love the 75' Cars and always will, I wish they can rebuild the R44/46 into High Tech Cars, but I agree on not sending the R44's to the C Line.
actually, it makes sense. put all 75 foot cars on lesser used lines, because they take longer to load and unload.
Ah, phooey. I don't believe that reasoning.
Less doors= Longer dwell times.
The R44,46,68,68a belong on the A,B,D,C,G,N,Q,W
Less doors= Longer dwell times
I know the theory. I don't buy it as fact.
It doesn't matter about the timing, the R44's are to popular and most likely will stay with the poplular lines which can handle the crowds better like A Line.
I'm confused: what is meant by "popular?" Does it mean the passengers like the R-44s and the A line more, or that railfans like the R-44s and the A line more? Frankly, I doubt the passengers give a rat's you-know-what about which model subway car appears before them as long as SOMEthing appears before them and gets them where they're going. As to which line is more popular, if the A had 8-car trains and the C had 10-car trains, and the frequencies were switched, then the C would be more "popular."
David
Passangers prefer the 75' cars over the 60' cars. That's why there is a mandate to run only R46's on the V.
I also prefer the 75' cars, because they have perpendicular seating. The real "railfan" window is in a window seat.
Frankly, I have never heard a passenger cite the length (or lack thereof) of a car class as a reason for preferring it over another car class. Is there something written (survey results, etc.) that I may see somewhere?
David
Not the length, but the seating arrangements on the 75' cars. People like the perpendicular window seating arrangement in the R44-R68 classes.
I don't know of any official surveys on this subject, but it's common knowledge. E riders still moan about how they have to use the R32's.
The seating arrangement is a function of NYCT's thinking at the time the cars were built, not of the length of the car. There have been 60' cars in New York City with transverse seating (like the 75-footers have).
David
i on my 2nd year at transit tech,maybe i,ve seen ya,i have shop ms
taylor 7th and 8th period,after that i take the c train to b,way
junction,(sometimes i take the A)and then take the J train to marcy.
after school i just jett,LOL.i,am on the last car on the c train.
hope we meet.
til next time
I got 7th period Math Workshop and then Lunch 8th, and 4 & 5 I got Mr Darby for shop, this to is my 2nd year at transit.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I see in the plans that a connection to the 125th Street station will be made when the Second Av. is built. I assume this will not be a physical connection. Won't the Second Av. be built to IND/BMT 10 foot wide specs?
An idea. Once the Second is up and running, close the Lex and quickly convert it to 10 foot. I was told that there are not too many clearance problems. That, in itself, could increase capacity on that line.
...until you get to 40th St. and Park Ave. south, where the Contract 1 tunnel resumes and the widths and support beams are only built to handle IRT-sized equipment.
The tunnel under Lex is convertable to 10-foot width, but then all lines would either have to stop at Grand Central or the MTA would have to rebuild at least four miles of IRT track from south of GC to South Ferry.
An idea. Once the Second is up and running, close the Lex and quickly convert it to 10 foot. I was told that there are not too many clearance problems. That, in itself, could increase capacity on that line.
You are only half right. You are correct, after shaving a bit off the platforms, the dual contracts portion of the Lex line north of Grand Central (including Grand Central) CAN handle BMT/IND sized trains. The problem is the Contract 1 portion of the Lexington south of Grand Central.
HEre are the IRT sections that can handle BMT/IND trains after shaving off a little bit from the platforms:
-Lexinton Line North of Grand Central (including GC).
-7th Ave Line South of Times Square (including TS, and excluding South Ferry station).
-All of the Bronx Els, except the West Farms portion of the 2/5 line (The White Plains Line north of E180 and the Dyre Line can handle it).
-The entire Queens portion of the 7 Line - ***See Below. (excluding the Stienway tunnels and the Manhattan portion of the line).
-The 2/3 line from Chambers to Borough Hall, including the Clark Street tunnel.
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including the Livonia El to New Lots, and the Flatbush Line)
So in summary, THESE are the lines (below) that mess up the IRT, and banish it to narrow cars - relatively a small part of the IRT:
The Contract 1 and 2 lines which include:
-The 7th Ave-Broadway Line North of Times Square to 242 Street
-The 3 line from 103rd to Lenox
-The 2 line from 135th to East 180th Street
-The Lexington line south of Grand Central (including South Ferry, which was originally built as part of the Contract 2 portion of what is now the Lexington Line)
-The Joraleman (4/5) tunnel under the River to Atlantic Ave
-The 42nd Street Shuttle
Finally:
The 7 Line from Times Square to Vernon Jackson
**Note the only part I'm not sure about is the underground portion of the 7 line from Vernon Jackson to Queens Plaza. Someone else will have to finish one of the lists with that information.
Hey! Thanks for posting that. I've always been curious about A Division clearances.
Where'd you get this information? I believe you and all, but i'm just wondering.
I learned it over time here, but also books. It's quite simple actually. Once you learn how the subway was built, it pieces together. Contract one and two were the first lines built, and they were built to IRT standards only. After that, contract 3 and 4 was built under the dual standards, which was built for both the BMT lines, and also the IRT. The dual standards was a new set of standards that was set (subway equipment sturdy els, etc) that all new lines in New York would be built by. Any line built after that point was built identical (meaning that the IRT portions were built the same way as the BMT portions, thus wider tunnels and clearances. So once you learn what lines were built before the dual standards (contract one and two), there's the "IRT-sized cars only" lines (second list).
The Stienway tunnels (7 line) are not contract one or two lines, but were built originally for trolley use in mind, so they are also smaller. In addition, PATH is IRT-sized-only also.
(Once you learn how the subway was built, it pieces together. Contract one and two were the first lines built, and they were built to IRT standards only. After that, contract 3 and 4 was built under the dual standards, which was built for both the BMT lines, and also the IRT.)
Don't forget the aborted "Triboro" system. I believe the Lex and 4th Avenue line were originally planned to be even wider than the Dual Contracts lines, though I don't know if they were built that way.
And some on this board have said that the turns on the old BMT Eastern Division are too tight for 75 foot cars, and the platforms are too short for 600 foot trains. So they need their own, separate cars and consists.
And some on this board have said that the turns on the old BMT Eastern Division are too tight for 75 foot cars, and the platforms are too short for 600 foot trains. So they need their own, separate cars and consists.
Yup, that's true. The dual contract standards though I think were more in line of the Eastern Division's specs. The lines that now have 75 foot cars were modified in a few spots to accomadate 75 foot cars, and stations were lengthened, when the R44-46's were ordered. They had a special car that went around testing where they would have to modify tunnels for the 75 foot cars. (Maybe someone else can elaborate on that). They never got around to doing the Eastern Division, probabaly because there were too many spots, and they didn't feel it was worth it there anyway.
As for the IRT sections mentioned that can handle BMT/IND sized trains, that may only be to the extent of the Eastern Division Specs, which is at the time what the dual contact standards were (or at least for 67 foot cars which is what I believe the BMT Standards trains were).
Maybe not even that -- if the platforms were shaved back on the Lex or lower Seventh Ave. to handle wider trains, you might be able to run 75 footers from 59th St. to Woodlawn Road or from Times Square to Chambers, but even the 60-foot B Division cars would cut it close on the curve into Grand Central or onto Park Place or William Street, and there's no way in the world anything but an IRT-length car could handle the 149th St. jughandle on the 5, unless they replace all the 75-foot A-B sets with 150-foot three-section articulated units to allow for IRT radius turns.
But once they go through the jughandle, they will be in IRT-width tunnels. Where would they go from there? They would be too wide to run in the subway under 149th Street. If the 4 was converted to B-division standards, the jughandle tracks that the 5 uses would have to be abandoned.
Well, once past the jughandle, they would only have to scrape out about a quarter-mile of tunnel -- 500-plus feet involving only platform cutbacks, between the merge with the Lennox connection to the No. 2 line and when the train portals onto the elevated section heading towards E. 180th St.
It would cost some $$$ to fix it, but no more than what the MTA had to do to some BMT sections in the 1970s to allow for the 75-footers to make the curves (note I'm not saying it's going to happen, because of the Contract 1 tunnels south of Grand Central, just that running articulated trains with three 50-foot sections apiece could solve the Mott Haven-Hub problem. You'd have to make the outer eight inches on each side of the car rubber to solve the problem from 40th Street down to South Ferry).
I see what you're saying. I think it would be cool if NYCT ran articulated cars like the ones in Stockholm (as long as you can see out the front of the train), and since that's my line that you mentioned, that would be even better.
But what problem is there south of 40th Street to South Ferry that you would need to use rubber on the outside of the trains?
From Grand Central to South Ferry the tunnels are just built too small and narrow. Not that any of the IRT is going to ever be converted (even though certain lines are already built for it as mentioned), but the old Contract one and two sections would have to be TOTALLY rebuilt, which obviously would be silly.
Thats alot of work just to get into a bmt/ind size car. Besides what and how would you run or distribute the use of the existing IRT cars?
Oh, you could send half of the S Park service across 28th, under B'way, up and over to 31st to Penn Station, leaving the rest as a shuttle to GCT. You'd move the four tracks north of GCT on Lex over to 2nd Ave, giving us a very grand six track subway all the way down to W Houston.
Or you might divert the Flushing south onto Lex, if only temporarily to rebuild the 42nd St corridor.
Ah! the pleasures of spending billions and billions in your head.
How's this?
Connect the northern half of the 7th line with the southern half of the Lex again, Widen the 7 tunnels and send it down 7th Ave, and give the Lex a whole new tunnel down 5th Ave! If only the MTA had thought to become an internet business and pay for all the work in stock options ;)
and there's no way in the world anything but an IRT-length car could handle the 149th St. jughandle on the 5
Correct, Check the list again. That is on the contract 1 and 2 list of lines that CAN NOT handle BMT/IND
In 1969, R-1 car # 192 was chopped in half, had a new midsection grafted in, and was fitted with a series of "whiskers"---thin sensors, in the shape of an R-44, to snake through B-division tunnels looking for spots where the R-44 would scrape the walls. I believe virtually all of the IND tunnels passed with flying colors; many BMT curves had problems. (The most obvious and visible tunnel modifictions can be seen between City Hall and Cortland Street, where catwalks have been shaved.)
The consultants who convinced the Transit Authority that a 75-foot car would be a money saver (fewer cars to purchase and maintain) didn't seriously consider the cost of infrastructure modifications. Once the tunnel scraping began, the whole procedure became the target of criticism. Whatever money was being saved through the purchase of 75-foot cars was being erased by the cost of tunnel modifications. For that reason, it was decided to save some money and not modify the Eastern Division of the BMT.
Of course, the Transit Authority had another reason for purchasing 75-foot cars: All sorts of future new lines were in the planning stages, and they wanted a sleek, high-capacity model for these new lines. That is why the R-44's and R-46's came equipped with automated control equipment, which unfortunately, became useless, since the new lines (except for the 63rd street line and the Archer Avenue subway) were never built.
Past proposals for the new subways in the the city's 1960's-era "Master Plan" called for a Second Avenue Subway that enered the Bronx and merged with the Pelham Bay Line. There would be a cross-track transfer at Brook Avenue with the #6 (the platforms would become island platforms). Then the new line would travel on its own tracks to the right-of-way with the New York Connecting Railroad, where new tracks would go non-stop to Whitlock Avenue, which would be the terminus for the #6. The 2nd Avenue line would then take over the rest of the Pelham El and also follow the railroad right of way to E. 180 Street, where another branch would take over the Dyre Aveue Line.
Very interesting. The BMT modifications for the 75 foot cars, and reasons behind the 75 foot cars, is the part of the puzzle that I didn't know too much about.
So it seems that the Dyre Ave line would have been a branch off of the Pelham line.
Well..actually...
There used to be a track connection between the New York Connecting Railway and the New York, Westchester and Boston Railroad (NYW&B) which later became the Dyre Avenue line. I believe some of the trackage was pulled up years ago and some buildings were built on part of the right-of-way. The proposed new subway line would have followed this old right-of way.
In other words, the Second Avenue line would have branched out at Whitlock Avenue in the shape of a "Y"; one leg would have taken over the rest of the Pelham line north of Whitlock, while the other would have followed the railroad right-of-way to connect to the Dyre.
Interesting. I would have surmised that they didn't touch the Eastern division because of the platform lengths, the curves at Cypress and Crescent and perhaps the bridge. A friend of mine said to me that the curve at Crescent was sharper than it is now. Was it realigned a little for the AB's. Any truth to this? Also, is there any liturature on the 1960's "Master Plan" you mentioned? Interesting proposal for the 6 line. Never heard of it before. Thanks.
I would imagine that the els could have been re-aligned fairly cheaply, and perhaps they did realign the curve, but I don't really know. Similarly, the elevated platforms could have been lengthened at a reasonable price. My bet is that a bigger problem would have been the mostly-underground 14th Street-Canarsie Line, with its myriad of curves and short platforms.
I actually HAD a copy of the Master Plan once (courtesy of my late father, who was a one-time New York City government official). It consisted of five giant paperback books, each about two feet by two feet. I threw the set out many years ago during an overzealous spring cleaning spree. That's how I knew about the Bronx plan for the Second Avenue Subway.
Large books. Thanks.
I've got Part 1 of the set - found it at Coliseum about 8 years ago. Didn't realize that there was more.
They had separate books for each Borough. It came with this giant cardboard album case.
Then maybe mine belongs to something diferent. It's entitled
Plan for New York City
1:Critical Issues
Something like an overview of all kinds of problems - housing, transit, schools, etc.
(Then maybe mine belongs to something diferent. It's entitled
Plan for New York City
1:Critical Issues
Something like an overview of all kinds of problems - housing, transit, schools, etc. )
What you have is the first volume of the 1969 plan, produced by the City Planning Commission for Lindsay's re-election campaign. It refers to the MTA plan, but is not the MTA plan.
It has all kinds of transit improvements that Lindsay's own debts ensured would never be built. And a bunch of highway improvements that Lindsay's own opposition to other highway improvements ensured would never be built either. It assumes the MTA and federal government would have the money to pay for just about everything.
Nothing proposed in that plan ever happened.
The Connection Is Not Rail. It's A Transfer Passage Bewtween Metro North Park Avenue El, Lexington Avenue IRT and 2nd Avenue BMT/IND Connecting the 3 125th Street Stations. The 2nd Avenue Line would Continue North Into The Bronx. (It may have been possible to keep the Third Avenue El and convert it for B Division Operations connecting to the 2nd Avenue Line (If Originally connected in the 1950's or 1970's))
(It may have been possible to keep the Third Avenue El and convert it for B Division Operations connecting to the 2nd Avenue Line (If Originally connected in the 1950's or 1970's))
One of the plans for the 2nd ave subway (I think the 70's plan, but not sure) was to connected to the Pelham, Dyre, and White Plains lines at E180th, converting them to B Division in the process.
The map would look much different today if that happened. The Lexington Line would only serve Woodlawn and the West Farms-Westchester Ave Line and terminate at E180th. The 2 would also go no farther than E180th. It would be strange indeed.
BTW, how was the 2nd Ave supposed to access the White Plains line? was it to take over the southern end of the old NYW&B that was abandoned?
Probably. But you can rule that out now because the TA has built some sort of bus facility in the path of NYW&B viaduct, which was demolished below 177th Street. So the only existing Bronx line that could feed into 2nd Avenue now is Pelham. Unless Amtrak doesn't mind sharing the Northeast Corridor ROW with subway trains. Then you could run a service from Co-op City and Pelham Gardens.
A newer plan was to connect the Second Av line to the #6 line, shaving the platforms back. The IND would have had a new terminal at Pelham Bay Park.
The #6 train would continue running, as platfor extenders would have been installed for it.
Wouldn't that be TOO much service for the Pelham line? I think the Pelham line gets too much service just with the Lexington Local headways on it! Luckily, some fo the 6's only go express. Of course if there was a SAS, Lexington trains would pobably lessen, however does Pelham really need two services?
I'd like to see:
1) the 2nd Avenue line extended to Frodham University via a subway on either Third or Webster Avenue.
2) An extension along 125th Street to the hudson River, providing an uptown-crosstown!
Elias
That uptown/crosstown would be a great help to the 125th Street area.
To a lot more than the 125th Street area. To just about anyone along Broadway north of, say, the 70's who ever needs to get to the East Side.
125th and Broadway would be quite a transfer between the 1 and the (probably deep underground) SAS. Good place for high capacity high speed elevators (if NYCT could ever install such a thing).
But I guess an extension to Lenox and St. Nicholas would already be very useful.
125th and Broadway would be quite a transfer between the 1 and the (probably deep underground) SAS.
Doesn't the surface of the land really drop down quite a long way towards the Western end of 125th Street? Even a line that was quite deep at Lenox would probably only be just below the surface at Broadway, or with a nice steady gradient on an El... Could end up with a nice T-shaped platform...
The 1/9 line is quite a distance above 125th Street.
What is now West 125th street was in the early days of Manhattan an inlet.
The reason the 1/9 is elevated at that point is that the areas both north and south are fairly high. Therefore, it was either (a) a deep tunnel in two areas or (b) an elevated structure in one.
No way you would be allowed to build an el on 125th today. So, the only option would be to dig a tunnel (shallow because of the water table) and connect via elevators.
It would be kind of hard to get a line like that past some of the north-south lines, particularly Lenox Avenue, wouldn't it? Plus, doing cut and cover work (which I assume a shallow tunnel would require) would not be supported by the community--it would probably have a big impact on 125th Street's economy. The only way to do such a project would probably be with a deep tunnel (assuming the geology of the area wouldn't prevent it).
It amazes me that a crosstown line up there was never built. Right now people on the Upper West Side bound for the Upper East Side (or the other way around) now have to either travel all the way to midtown and go back up, or the ridiculous other option to take the IND up to Yankee Stadium and travel back down the Lex (or again reversed for the East Siders). A 135th Street line in conjunction with the SAS would be a nice addition to the system. Well, I still have to see the SAS to believe the SAS it in the first place. Well maybe I'll be happy it will be ADA compliant when I ride opening day as an old man in a wheelchair, and that's if I make it. If not, maybe my great great great grandchildren will ride opening day.
Obviously I mean 125th not 135th in the above post.
aren't they putting in putting a provision at 125th so that one day they could extend the 2nd avenue subway into the Bronx? that has kinda been the general idea all along. However, i do agree that a crosstown line on 125th street would be a good idea, perhaps even a better idea than an extension into the bronx
I think at a Crosstown line at 125th would be better than extension to the Bronx. There is no crosstown line in upper Manhattan. The riders who need the Bronx can use Lexington.
This has been a fascinating thread, reminding us all of the complexities of all the original dual system contracts.
The original IRT ran from City Hall up Park Av S, across 42nd, then up B'way. And this is the teeeny-weeny IRT sized system.
I gather from this thread that the Lex from 42nd north and the W side from 42nd south are built to BMT/IND standards.
My question is about the W side IRT going to Brooklyn. Is it's route thru downtown(from Chambers on) and is its tunnel to B'lyn up to IND standards? The idea of running IND trains thru Clark St is intriguing.
(My question is about the W side IRT going to Brooklyn. Is it's route thru downtown(from Chambers on) and is its tunnel to B'lyn up to IND standards? The idea of running IND trains thru Clark St is intriguing. )
I don't know for sure, but my guess is no way. That's one tight set of curves from Chambers to Nevins.
My question is about the W side IRT going to Brooklyn. Is it's route thru downtown(from Chambers on) and is its tunnel to B'lyn up to IND standards? The idea of running IND trains thru Clark St is intriguing.
Yes. The clark Street tunnel is buildt to Ind/BMT standards. The train could run down the West Side, through the Clark Street tunnel and make it as far as Borough Hall. After that though it joins the 4/5 from the Joralaman tunnel onwards to Atlantic Ave, which is a Contract 2 line (see list), so it couldn't make it past Borough Hall. After Atlantic Avenue, it is once again a Dual Contract line, so it would be free to go again.
Rememeber though that 75 foot cars are not part of how the Dual Contract lineswas designed. When I say IND/BMT stadards, I only mean to the extent that IND/BMT trains can run on the Eastern Division, which was up to Dual Standards. The lines that run 75 foot cars were altered in some spots to allow for that equipment bbefore the R44-46's arrived.
This gets ever more fascinating. One could actually send all the
Flatbush Ave trains coming out of DeKalb into the Rutgers and Clark tunnels!
Of course you'd have to do something for the poor old Culver line and half of the E Pkway service.
My fantasies about enlarging and re-arranging the subway system just became far more flexible. Just imagine, turning the 7th Ave IRT into a BMT/IND line.
This gets ever more fascinating.
Yup, when I first learned of this about 6 months ago, it fascinated me. I had no idea, it was only the original parts of the IRT that banishes it to narrow cars. This subject still fascinates me. That's why I love when it comes up.
One could actually send all the Flatbush Ave trains coming out of DeKalb into the Rutgers and Clark tunnels!
Yup, cool isn't it. With some connections, A train could come from New Lots or Flatbush terminals and run to the 6th Ave or Broadway line also.
My fantasies about enlarging and re-arranging the subway system just became far more flexible. Just imagine, turning the 7th Ave IRT into a BMT/IND line.
Yup, but rememeber they would only make it to Times Square Station on the Bway-7th Line. North of that you are back to pure IRT again.
With just the modification of the curve into Nevins, you probably could connect the otherwise straight Atlantic section with Boro Hall. Build a connection of the Dual Contracts lines with the straight Times Square shuttle, and you would have a single trunk line that is the reverse of the original IRT line: lower portion on the west side, cross over 42nd St. and upper portion of the east side.
They should look into this if they one day want to eliminate as much of the unconvertible IRT as possible. The plan I saw 20 years ago involved building some connection between Jerome Av. and Broadway across Fordham Rd. to form a loop service. This turned the old IRT into "primarily a Manhattan circulator, leaving the outer lines for the more amply dimensioned IND", but did not recapture any of the Dual contracts lines for the B div. except for connecting White Plains Rd and Dyre Ave. to the 2nd Av line.
I know you are probably just talking fantasy also, but:
With just the modification of the curve into Nevins, you probably could connect the otherwise straight Atlantic section with Boro Hall.
It's not just the curves that cause the problem for the non-dual contracts portions of the IRT using wider equipment. The original old IRT tunnels are NARROWER, so the whole tunnel would have to be rebuilt between Nevins and Atlantic.
Build a connection of the Dual Contracts lines with the straight Times Square shuttle, and you would have a single trunk line that is the reverse of the original IRT line: lower portion on the west side, cross over 42nd St. and upper portion of the east side.
The same thing here. The IRT tunnel under 42nd Street is straight, but is also narrower. This would also not be too much of an improvement of service because it would render the upper part of the West Side, and the Lower end of the Lexington as useless stub lines.
All in all, I like talking about the fact that it's possible to do this, but in Manhattan it would actually be a very dumb idea. It's unfortunate that the IRT is narrow, but even though half the lines can actually handle wider cars, the narrower portions do dictate that it has to remain as such. Obviously, it would be a terrible waste of money and foolish idea to convert the Conract one portion of the IRT to accomodate wider equipment.
COnnecting some of the Bronx els to the 2nd Ave subway (as the 70's plan envisioned) is about the extent of what would be feasible to do. Other than that, it's fun to talk about the possibility of an R40 running up Lexington Ave through the 51st street station, and even though it's physically possible, fantsy is all it will (or should) be.
Connect the Clark tube via Clinton St. into the Transit Museum station (i.e., the Fulton St local tracks). Then connect the Nostrand Ave line to the Fulton St. subway.
You could jimmy the Joralemon line onto Lafayette Ave (Nevins St already has a lower level, a leftover from when they thought they were gonna go down 4th Av.) Then down to Flatbush via, oh, Portland with x-fer station at Fulton.
This does unfortunately bypass Atlantic/Pacific. And makes the G line even less functional that it really is: you'd have to run a few IRT trains in it, to the detriment of E Pkway (but then the Rogers bottleneck would no longer exist, so this might not be a problem).
It can be done!
Even if those tunnels are narrower, they are such short stretches that it shouldn't be a problem to widen just them. Of course, this would be a long term idea, and once again, the idea is to reduce the smaller contract 1 and 2 lines to just a circulator. Another idea would be to build a new line under the shuttle (I think the 7 is out of th way at that point), and run both the otiginal IRT line and the connected dual contract line.
Don't forget, widening the IRT from 9' to 10' only increases capacity by 11%.
The remainder of the difference in capacity between IND/BMT and IRT is in the length of trains. You could lengthen platforms without widening tunnels. Of course, lengthening is also very expesnive.
Tunnel clearances in the Contract One sections prohibit any 'widining' of the IRT line. Why do you think that the BMT cars can bow out in the middle slightly, while the IRT cars cannot. Banging car ends and smooshing car middles in the narrow tunnels are what is prohibitive.
Elias
"Tunnel clearances in the Contract One sections prohibit any 'widining' of the IRT line."
This whole subthread has been about the idea of increasing IRT capacity by spending a lot of money to widen the tunnels.
I was trying to point out that, in addition to no doubt being prohibitively expensive, as others have mentioned in this thread, it is also not particularly valuable. Considerably more capacity (20% vs 11%) is gained from "just" lengthening the stations.
True. It just started out as an observation that the dual contracts portion of the IRT can in fact handle BMT/IND cars (on the lines mentioned) - just to add to general knowledge, not at all suggestiong to do such a thing. Obviously no one seriously considered doing it of course.
I want to bring up this interesting thought though (not suggestiong it should have been done)
Let's forget that the IRT and BMT were competing companies. Let's just think that in 1910's when they were planning to expand the subway system that they were trying to benefit the city transportation as a whole, not transportation companies' profits.
Would it have been better to leave the original Contract one line intact (with the exception of making Times Square an express station)? What if instead they had built the lower portion of the West Side line and the upper part of the Lexington line and connected them together leaving sort of an "X" system, instead of a "H" with the shuttle forming the crossbar of the "H". Later the 8th Ave line would provide a full length West Side Line, and 2nd Ave subway would provide a full length East Side line.
This way Upper West Siders could travel with a one seat ride to the Lower East Side, or the Lower West side, and visa versa for the Upper East Siders. Of course the Upper West Side Line to the Lower East Side line (original IRT) would still be IRT sized, but the Upper Lexline to the Lower 7th Ave line (which was in fact built to BMT sized standards anyway) would actually be BMT sized).
This in fact is a feasible, and not totally ludicrous idea. The only construction that would be necessary would be another line under one of the cross streets to connect upper Lex with lower 7th Ave. I'm not actually saying it should be done, but this is in fact not cost prohibitive, as upper Lex and lower 7th Can in fact handle the wider cars. Rebuilding the Contract one portion of the IRT IS cost prohibitive obviously. Of course none of this could happen unless there was a 2nd Ave subway there to provide a full length East Side line, as the Lexington would be a full length East Side only line.
Of course none of this could happen unless there was a 2nd Ave subway there to provide a full length East Side line, as the Lexington would be a full length East Side only line.
The last sentence should read that the Lexington Ave line would no longer be an East Side only line.
Bill Vickrey, I think it was, had an interesting idea: run 15-car trains (with two C/R's, presumably). Lengthen platforms at some of the busier stations, but otherwise leave them alone. Which two-thirds of the train platforms would alternate from station to station. Passengers traveling between "front" stations and "back" stations would have to board in the middle third; passengers traveling between two "front" stations or two "back" stations could board anywhere but would be steered to the end of the train, where crowds would be smaller.
Of course, signage would have to be very clear and the new map would be quite complex. (Imagine South Ferry at every station!) Signals might have to be reworked and the system that opens and closes the doors would apparently have to be redesigned.
A less dramatic variation would run 12-car trains with the existing platforms. The first and twelfth cars would have their doors locked out and would dangle off either end of the platform, but passengers from the second and eleventh cars would be able to spill over. This would require undoing the five-car sets that dominate the A Division.
PATH cars bow out in the middle. Aren't they the same width as IRT cars? Are the Contract One and Two tunnels more restrictive than even the PATH tubes?
Path Tunnels are ROUND, and they too bow out in the middle as it were.
Their tunnel clearances are obviously different from IRT clearances.
Elias
Remember that if the tunnels are widened, then the IRT could start running 60' trains. Any tunnel widening would probably be coupled with station lengthening at the same time since that would be cheaper than doing each seperately, so capacity would be increased a third by both lengthening and widening (areas of 9x500 vs 10x600). Would that be worth it?
Even if the tunnels were widened slightly, there would still be car length restrictions on the IRT because of the tighter turning radii, specifically at City Hall on the 6, South Ferry on the 1, 5 and 9 and on the 5 coming into/leaving 149th St.-Grand Concourse. That's why all 10-foot tunnels in the B division can't handle 75 foot cars, because the turning radii on the Carnasie line getting around Newtown Creek (plus possibly the northbound swerve coming into Chambers on the Nassau St. line) are too tight for the longer length-cars.
i apologize for my ignorance, but how many cars are trains on the lex during rush hours?
Ten, same as always. But IRT cars are only 51' (vs. 60' or 75' for B division) so a full length train on the IRT is 510' (excluding the Flushing line, where 561' trains are often run) vs. 600' on the BMT or IND lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All A Division (IRT) trains are ten 51-foot cars long at all times, except the 7 runs 11-car trains, the 42nd Street shuttle runs two 3-car trains and one 4-car train (there are only three trains on the line, one on each track), and the late night 5 shuttle runs 5-car OPTO trains.
Ohhhhh, so that's why IRT stations look so much smaller than the BMT/IND.
9 foot wide cars x 51 foot long cars x 10 cars = 4590 sq ft
10 foot wide cars x 60 foot long cars x 10 cars = 6000 sq ft
Standard 10 x 60 x 10 BMT/IND trains sets have more than 30% more capacity than 10 car IRT sets.
The idea that one can increase capacitity on (most of) the Lex north of 42nd, and ditto for (most of) the West Side IRT south of 42nd with only relatively minimal new construction makes compelling economic sense when the present system is now grossly overmaxed in capacity.
To paraphrase what someone else said, aitching the upper Lex with the lower B'way somewhere north of 42nd (say, via 57th, or even cheaper, via Central Park) would have a remarkable effect on capacity in Manhattan. Shaving and lengthening station platforms is cheaper than building new trunk lines (tho' I dread to see what Wall St station on the West Side IRT would be like after such a platform lengthening/shaving). I can also hear UWSers kvetching about how they've had train capacity reduced (tho', in fact, they would have not).
I may later post a revised solution for INDing most of of the Brooklyn division of the IRT -- one that actually makes the whole of the G line infinitely more useful that present (it would be IRT all the way, with a terminal & transfer at HuntersPoint Av with the Flushing), one that actually increases capacity on E Pkway/Nostrand.
"To paraphrase what someone else said, aitching the upper Lex with the lower B'way somewhere north of 42nd (say, via 57th, or even cheaper, via Central Park) would have a remarkable effect on capacity in Manhattan."
But you could get 2/3 of that capacity increase simply by lengthening IRT platforms to 12 cars, at a fraction of the cost (though still very expensive).
I often thought of a way to make the G more useful. I don't know how the TPH would work, someone with better knowledge of frequenicies of trains in the east river crossings would have to elaborate on the operational feasablity. What I am going to mention is structural feasibility. How about this far fetched, but structually possible idea:
-Give it a purple number, let's say 11 (which is on the rollsigns), and convert the G to IRT trains and connect it to the current 7 line beetween Vernon and Hunter's Point, making it a direct Manhattan line once and for all. I would run:
Times Square, 5th Ave, Grand Central, Vernon, Greenpoint, Nassau,......,Bergen Lower Level, express to Church, and terminating there. The IND express track in Brooklyn would become IRT (new 11 line)only, and the line would be severed from the Queens line (at least operationally, but a track connection for equipment (IRT sized) would still remain.
-Next, since the entire remaining part of the current 7 line is built to IND/BMT standards, that line would become IND sized, recieve a yellow letter designation (let's say W, since the B may return to West End next year, and it's on the rollsigns), and run to the 60th Street tunnel after Queensboro Plaza and then down Broadway. (...40th St-Lowery, 33rd-Rawson, QB Plaza, Lexington-59th....etc) This would increase the capacity of the current 7 line (as in Mark's post) by giving it wider trains (which it it built already to accomodate anyway).
-The remaining portion of what would be left of the 7 line between Queensboro Plaza and Hunter's point Ave would become a shuttle. A new station would be built on what is now the G line (my new 11 line), connecting with the shuttle at HuntersPoint Ave.
Benefits of this plan:
-This plan would increase capacity on the Flushing (now lettered IND/BMT route) line buy giving it full width cars, fairly easily.
-The Crosstown G (then a numbered IRT line would become a direct Manhattan line, making it much more useful line. The capacity would be fine on the crosstown as an IRT line. It would still be able to have passenger growth.
Disadvantages:
-I don't know what to do with what's left of the current G line between Queens Plaza and 21-Van Alst.
?Maybe make another shuttle there between Van Alst and Queens Plaza? Then another track and platform would be necessary at Queens Plaza to handle the new shuttle.
?Maybe abandon it to revenue passengers? Van Alst is one of the least used stations in the system anyway.
Maybe a combination of both maybes - a shuttle between Court Square (alowing the Ely connection to remain) and a new platform/track at Queens Plaza, and abandon Van Alst.
Disadvantages:
-I don't know what to do with what's left of the current G line between Queens Plaza and 21-Van Alst.
?Maybe make another shuttle there between Van Alst and Queens Plaza? Then another track and platform would be necessary at Queens Plaza to handle the new shuttle.
?Maybe abandon it to revenue passengers? Van Alst is one of the least used stations in the system anyway.
Maybe a combination of both maybes - a shuttle between Court Square (alowing the Ely connection to remain) and a new platform/track at Queens Plaza, and abandon Van Alst.
Disadvantage: The Roosevelt Avenue line is already utilizing all of the Stieneway capacity.
Disadvantage: The Crosstown line does not connect to the lower level at Bergen Street.
Elias
Disadvantage: The Roosevelt Avenue line is already utilizing all of the Stieneway capacity.
Disadvantage: The Crosstown line does not connect to the lower level at Bergen Street.
Yes I know that. The Roosevelt Avenue would no longer run into the Stienway tunnel, and a connection would have to be made to the Crosstown line at Bergen.
Yes I know that. The Roosevelt Avenue would no longer run into the Stienway tunnel, and a connection would have to be made to the Crosstown line at Bergen.
Ok, now you are talkin my tune.
I'd run the (R) on the Roosevelt Line, (even though the Roosevelt has need of mre service than the (R) can possibly manage) and your idea of running the (7) on the Crosstown has a merit that I never thought of. : )
I'd probably terminate it at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then I'd run the (F) as now, but the (E) {or (V)} EXPRESS on the Culver to KINGS HWY. (vial the lower level)
Before you could tamper with the (7), you'd have to build a new line on Northern Blvd, to relive some of the (7) traffic, then the (R) could manage it.
Elias
We went over this a couple of years ago -- the problem with switching the Flushing Line east of Queensboro Plaza to B Division is despite the wider trains, or even longer trains if you bump the platforms up to 600-feet, you actually reduce capacity on the line, because you are now sharing the line with other routes.
As it is now, unless short-turned at 111th St. or Willets Point, all No. 7 trains go from Times Square to Main Street Flushing. They share trackage with no other line, and as a result, have no other lines to worry about merges with. The only merge is between the locals and the expresses before QP during AM rush which allows the MTA to run as many trains as possible (to their standards) through the Steinway tunnel. A stand-alone line is always going to have more track capacity than a line that shares its route with another, given the same general track conditions.
Move the Flushing Line over to the B division (hypothetically with the W train, and it is now sharing the 60th St. tunnel with both the Astoria line's N trains, and the R trains coming through thew 11th St. cut from the IND Queens Plaza station. To get the same number of trains out to Flushing right now and maintain Astoria and Continental Ave. service, you would have to run 45 trains an hour through the 60th Street tunnel (anyone trying to do this probably would eat the 12 bowls of corn flakes instead of the one bowl of Total, too).
Cut the number of TPH back on the Flushing line to allow N and R service to be maintained, and you probably have to kill off the express service between QP and Main Street. And even if you were to swap the Astoria line to A Division to eliminate one of those merges (which would require a big new flying junction at QP), you're still stuck with the 11th St. merge with the R, or merging the lines again with the Broadway express at 57th or 42nd Streets if you run the R though the 63rd St. tunnel (which would tee off a bunch of Queens IND riders, who would then lose their direct transfer to the IRT 4 and 5 trains at 59th and Lex).
In short, as much as some people want to eliminate the IRT, the infrastructure of the existing system -- the Steinway tunnel and the Contract 1 and 2 sections on the main line -- mean the IRT sized cars will be part of the system for a long time to come.
My comments elsewhere about creating an alternate transfer/terminal station for the crosstown at Hunters Point Av raise some interesting questions.
What happens if you have an alternate ramp up to Queens Blvd, into where the 3rd track ends?
It seems to me you could have additional local Flushing trains running down the alternate ramp, and then into the crosstown, including the AM and PM rushes (but no direct Manhattan access). Trains would also terminate at Court Sq, as presently, but as these would be IRT trains, the daytime G service on the Queens IND is gone forever.
My postings elsewhere allow for dramatically enhanced Manhattan transfer access in Brooklyn as well.
The speculations are good to indulge in. It's surprising how sometimes when you consider a subject and not be afraid to extrapolate in various directions, the primary object of attention becomes clearer.
Now me, along with trains I like how NYC can use ferries very well. Surely with modern technology ferry transfer points can be made completely climate controlled. It'll be interesting to see how the Hoboken Terminal Ferry docks turn out. It'll be the second enclosed ferry boarding area in the area that has direct train service.
I've done a major posting on this topic, in a new thread with the title "IND/BMTing the IRT". It also addresses some thoughts found in the followups to the immediately preceding post. To get to my new post immediately, here is the URL:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=449311
YAVCP - Yet Another Vid Cap Post
Question 1) What subway system and line is this?
Question 2) What station is it in?
Bonus Question) What commercial is this video still frame from?
Take Pride,
Brian
BTW, "Question 2" may be a trick question since the subway might not actually be in a station.
1) LA Red Line(?)
2) The car does not appear to be in a station
3) Haven't seen the commercial yet.
How'd I do?
>>> 2) The car does not appear to be in a station <<<
If it is revenue track, it is in the cut and cover portion under McArthur Park, leaving the Alvarado Station.
I do not recognize the commercial either.
Tom
1. LA - Red Line Subway
2. ?
Photo Extra Info
Lead Car 501 and train (Unknown Car Numbers) was Melted By Lava Flows Near Macarthur Park Station In The Film "Volcano" (Check Out FX Channel On Cable/Satalite for Air Times during February)
The T/O in that movie was saved by a section boss who was melted by lava, too. It's on FX TONIGHT.
The T/O in that movie was saved by a section boss who was melted by lava, too. It's on FX TONIGHT.
I saw that movie.
MacArthur Park is melting in the dark......
couldn't resist :o>
wayne
MacArthur Park is melting in the dark......
couldn't resist :o>
And all that sweet green icing's flowing down. Guess someone left the cake out in the rain.
Lead Car 501 and train (Unknown Car Numbers) was Melted By Lava Flows Near Macarthur Park Station In The Film "Volcano"
Yeah, and that movie actually made MacArthur Park look fairly decent, rather than the Armpit of the Universe it actually is.
Looks to me like a 2 train to Brooklyn.
Oh, wait, that's just your sig. But at least it's a real 2 train, not one of those imposters they're running nowadays.
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner! Not. But you speak the truth about the 2 train. I remember back when they ran redbirds on the 2. I'm going back 2, 3, even 4 years now. Those *were* the days.
Take Pride,
Brian
The commercial is for an upcoming movie. I forget which one.
Since I had the day off from school [I go to City Tech], I decided to take a little trip on the L. I start out by taking the B68 to the B75 then I get off at Fulton Mall and I walk around for a while. I buy some new Timbs and I hop on any of the Fulton buses that comes first at around Dekalb and I take it to Jay Street to catch the A train. So I wait for R44 5210 to come and I'm on it and this subway preaceher comes in and starts talking all this religious stuff. Then it goes pretty slow from Canal St to 14 St going no more than 25mph. I would get off at 14 St to take the L train, hoping to catch a R42.
So lo and behold a R42 arrives at 8 Av and I grab the railfan window; walking around Fulton Mall paid off I guess ;-). So I get in 4684 and we leave as fast as the train arrives and people took all the seats already from 6 Av. So we're going but the R143 is one station ahead of us since it was CROWDED. So we go through the stations and in the N 7 St tube we go 50mph but I'm surprised trains don't go faster before approaching Bedford Av. So we arrive and leave Bedford and we go smoothly until the EXCRUTIATING turn after Graham Av. So then we're going smoothly once again and we're going through the stops on the L [boy would a 3rd track really help]. Then we go outside at Wilson Av and I saw a freight train on the old LIRR tracks. Anyway, we're going again and we arrive at B'way Junction stop & leave. At Atlantic Av, NOBODY was on the platform, which shows its low usage[good place for taking photos if you want a long distance shot of the 3 or seeing the hill at Sutter]. Then I saw the realigned n/b track at Sutter Av and we're continuing the ride and at East 105 St, the platform is rididcuolusly narrow; ONLY 7-8 feet wide I believe. Then we arrive at Rockaway Parkway. Saw 4 R42's on the L so railfans, ride them WHILE YOU CAN!
Then I take the B6 from Rockaway Parkway; saw a B88 sign there [very odd] take that to CI Av then I take the B68 home.
NF 884 B68
RTS 8546 B75
R44 5210 (A)
R42 4684 (L)
RTS 4772 B6 LTD
NF 987 B68
Sounds like a good time.
---Brian
Sounds like a great time you had! To bad I didn't have the day off (sigh). I wanna railfan the entire A Line next week on my week off, well just part of the Line, Im gonna Railfan from Nostrand Ave. - Mott Avenue(Last Stop - Far Rockaway).
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Aww come on be brave and go for the whole thing, plus you are on vacation! I think you know your buses so how about this: take the B44 LTD to Glenwood, the Q35 to the Q22 to Far Rockaway [the last stop on the 22] and ride the entire A to 207 St getting a R32 or R38 of course then back to your stop at Nostrand [oh don't attempt to use your student Metrocard on the buses unless Catholic school kids have school ;-)].
Maybe.... I was thinking of doing that one day, but Im not up for that, the reason I wanna do Far Rockaway because I never been out there on the A line before, and I heard it was beautiful over the Jamaica Bay and the A Line gets up to speed (about 45 mph).
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
WHAT?! You NEVER been to the Far Rockaway branch and you live near the A, surprising! Wonderful sights running over the Jamaica Bay wait I'm not gonna spoil it for you, you gotta experience it for yourself.
Not forcing you to ride the whole thing but its a good 'workout' and you could do that whenever you have free time.
I take the A Train to Euclid Avenue for School and that's it and some times Manhattan Bound, sad isn't it?
Yes, it's sad and REAL SAD not as a railfan to EVER experience a trip to the Rockaways on the A train, EVEN ONCE. I can rant and rave how good the Brighton line is, still IMO the best subway line period! BUT the absoloute BEST place to ride in NYC is from Rockaway Blvd to to the first stop on the Rockaways. Where else you can see planes take off from JFK airport. Or viewing the Aqueduct racetrack, and the 1950's style subway station in from of the Grandstand entrance. The dangers of traveling over Jamaica Bay on two drawbridges. The sea air, WOW!!!!
Don't give it away Kool-D, let him see it and give NO details ;-). I found it surprising too that he never railfanned the A :-0! Oh, we will always continue to rave about the Brighton but the Rockaways is a SIGHT not to miss.
I wanted AcelaExpress to start foaming so that he can have a good excuse to take this "excursion". Sorry I gave too much away.
SAD is a understatement! Acela, you don't know what you're missing by never seeing the sights of Jamaica Bay & the Rockaways via A train! You should of railfanned the A so many times already, I rode the A to the Rockaways more than you; I found it shocking :-0; but you ride the shuttle buses when they are there at least, right? I'm riding the shuttle bus from Rockaway Blvd to Beach 98 St this weekend; this is a very good GO; the bus runs via Cross Bay Blvd and in the past I've been on buses that went the maximum speed. Also, I'm riding the 3 section L GO and I'm checking out the Q GO this weekend so I'm going to be out all day Saturday weather permitting.
I've ridden the A Line more times than most people on this board, but I've never went passed Euclid Avenue (Queens-Bound).
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I've ridden the A Line more times than most people on this board, but I've never went passed Euclid Avenue (Queens-Bound).
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
WOW! So tht means you NEVER rode the A to/from Lefferts Blvd neither :-0! Stop lying Acela LOL!
Im not lying! Its sadnest!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Oh boy, this IS TRULY SAD! Anyway I'm not clowning you, just very surprsied that's all.
I know your not clowning, but I do find that sad for myself.
"I've ridden the A Line more times than most people on this board, but I've never went passed Euclid Avenue (Queens-Bound)."
You sound like Dracula to me, afraid of daylight. At least you can take the A to Grant Ave, its the last undergound station on the A line before you hit daylight.
Last time I rode out there, I had an R38 on the outbound trip and we never broke 40. I had an R44 on the inbound so I couldn't see the speedometer, not to mention I sat for that trip having stood on the 38 from Hoyt all the way to Far Rockaway.
Last time I rode the A from the Rockaways heading toward Brooklyn, we did 44mph on a R38 on the Rockaway stretch.
45 mph entering Broad Channel SB, R-38, during a snowstorm.
Still not as fast as the 3 entering 50th SB, but close.
Atlantic Avenue on the L certainly is a desolate-appearing station. I'm sort of sad that all the work's been done on it, however; somehow the old trackways added to the atmosphere.
Yeah, I agree with you. Atlantic Av with all the extra tracks did give it a different atmosphere. One of the extra platforms could of been used for a new service to terminate there using the Canarsie/Jamaica connection. It's gonna look even more depressing to me once all the work is done; could be wrong but chances are I'll be right.
True, the NB track from Sutter to Atlantic that currently has track on it has had paint removed at regular spaces, apparently having being prepped for demolition.
Flatbush
You were near my house
Next time call me and i will meet you
Barry
Oh really, what stop are you at. I'm riding the 3 section L train GO this weekend so who knows what could happen.
The L train from end to end is 41 minutes, a little more during rush hour crowded trains. I will be doing this on Sunday, maybe a Saturday night, with a little R/W mixed in. Don't forget all Uptown IRT Lex express service runs local from GC to 125th St this weekend also, possibly Downtown too, but cannot confirm the latter at this time.
I rode the L Line from Bway to Rockaway Parkway and had 2 R143's back and forth, #'s 8148 and 8129 and I only seen one R42 at Livonia Avenue going Canarsie bound as I was going back to Bway.
And East 105th St (Turnball) has the distinction of the ONLY subway station NOT to have a platform canopy. If it rains, you have to wait upstairs on the mezzanine/fare control area.
That station is a laughing stock to me IMO, not to mention it is a hard to find station [especially if you don't know where you are] and it has very poor lighting. There's no canopy b/c there's NO ROOM for it! Yeah and if you go up there, you just might miss the train b/c C/R's usually close the doors up very quickly.
How could you miss the train at that station, theres a large (scratchii window) facing the Rockaway Parkway station and the adjacent yard. You can see the trains leaving there, no excuses.
Hell, I remember cutting through the Rockaway Penninsula one winter night years ago on my way to Brooklyn. I was coming from visiting my parent's house in Central Islip. Normally, I'd take the train from Islip to Flatbush Terminal. I don't know, felt like doing a little differently that night. I was unemployed so I didn't care if I got home late.
What I did was, got off at Babylon and took the local to Lynbrook. (That's one damn long local stretch!) Caught the N32 down to Far Rockaway. It was pretty late, around 21:30 or so. Found my way over to the boardwalk. I walked on the boardwalk all the way to Beach 116th Street. What a cool walk by the way. The beach in the middle of a winter night....spooky. Cold. And weird....
At Beach 116th I took the B35 up to Kings Hwy. And I walked over to 20th Avenue and 65th Street, where I lived. Man, was I glad to get to my apartment that night!
As of February 1, 2003, after 41 years of service, the last (2) of the 236 R-29s were removed from the "Revenue Active" roster of the NYCT. There are just 10 R-26s and 6 R-28s remaining on the roster, too. Won't be long now.
A moment of slience for the system's original "Redbirds."
ALL CAPITAL LETTERS " FAREWELL TO ALL RAILFAN WINDOWS " !!!
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
I only have ONE (1) R-29 photo on my entire website :( And it's in a deadline :(
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/R-29
Take Pride,
Brian
Well get to steppin on the 4 and 5! There are still at least two Redbird trains as of today, one with orange tape, one with black. The 4 train still operates with south motor 9266. Hurry up! ;-)
Yeah, but there's no more R-29's, right?
ALL GONE!
-Stef
See! So what you talk'n 'bout, Mr. JayZeeBMT????
There are still R-33s and R-36s to be found, but for how long is anyone's guess!
-Stef
I have a ton of photos of them! But don't worry, I will get plenty more in the upcoming months.
"Yeah, but there's no more R-29's, right?"
Yep, if not swallowed up by the Atlantic Ocean by now !
Bill "Newkirk"
Any sitting at Concourse?
#8786 5 Lexington Ave Express-this was my last R29 that I rode.
I wonder if that was 8722 and 23?
Wasn't one of those pairs being used to operate the GEL Train, with R-33 8885?
The last 8 R-26/28s pulled from service in Oct. have been at Concourse for some time now. I'm surprised those hadn't been reefed already.
-Stef
Too Bad. This whole situation would not be as bad if the Redbirds were being replaced with cars that are somewhat "railfan friendly." The R-142,143,160 etc. are what they are, but no one can say they are as fun to ride as the Redbirds and the other arch-roof car classes.
Soon redbirds will only be useful as a way for Squidward to find refuge from Spongebob's and Patrck's shenanigans.
:-) Andrew
I am soooo glad I videotaped them when I did over the past few years.
Unfortunately, very soon I'll have to rename some of them "An Extinct Species on the IRT" ... :(
--Mark
Fellow rail buffs. Let us bow our heads. And perform a hymm for our dearly departed R29( first cars with robin-egg blue interiors) from active service,
"AMAAAAAAAAZIIIIINNNNNGG TRAAIIIIIINNNS
HOW SWEET WERE THE SOUNDS
HOW SAD IT'S ALL TRUE
WE HAVE TO RIDE R142
Reverend Bklyn
Good riddance, imo.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 29s and the 33MLs were the only decent redbirds... Other than the 27/30s that is.
That my friend was the post of the day.
Isn't it so true? When I drive into the 239h yard, the R142s sing their songs over my AM car radio. CI peter
My vote goes for:
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
Unca Steve: WhataamIgoonadooonow? Tomorrow will be one of the LAST R33 inspections on the #5. What really stinks is it will be before my crews pick. The Redbirds are the best 'learning trainset' ever.
Relax, bro ... pull a pick where there's 32's to play with. They're REMARKABLY similar if that's what you want ...
There are still 484 Redbirds on the "Revenue Active" list. However, Peter, it's time to move up to the big trains. Pick Tuesday or Wednesday?
Pick Tuesday at 1102 hrs. I'm going to continue with New Tech R142s if I can. At my age, I must be on top with the newest. I will move to the big trains when the R160s are on rail. Most of my class remains provisional and expects to go to 207th for reefing. When Bombardier 'pulls the plug' and the 'crap hits the fan,' it'll be the junior CIs that TA calls up. Unca Steve, don't get me wrong: I'd like to move over to your shop but I worked hard to earn the respect of the senior 239th guys. 180th is the most junior car barn
and with everyone bailing out because of the hard work and tough supervision, I may be the senior 'troubles CI.' I remember your advices every day. The crew irks me to take on the position of shop steward...a thankless job chock full of agida. A 'round peg fits into a round hole.' CI Peter
Shop Steward, hahhahhahahha. And get squeezed between Tony S., Uncle "Johnny Cash" and "Rat Boy"? Hardly a pleasant place to find oneself. Much safer under the cars when the sh!# starts falling - and it will. Remember - No Hardships !!!!!!!!
Peter,
That sounds like a come on over to my crew. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I'm thinking Rebecca De Mornay in "Risky Business" ... "How'd you like to do it on a REAL train?" And here's CI Peter wondering why he ain't getting any. :)
Unca Peter needs to listen to Unca Dood ... break in on 32's wherever they're barned now, graduate to 143's ... Peter'd LIKE the 143's ... lots'a'space to curl up and pull boards. Best of all worlds in double-wide. B division cars are Stretch limos compared to those O gauge thingies with the numbers on their bulkheads. Heh.
Who here remembers the midnight Rockaway Round Robin? When the R-10s and later Slants and R-38s were assigned to it I used to stay up late in the summer just to railfan it! I knew the regular crew real well the summer of '78 and again in '79, and riding on the ocean was a treat. I know low ridership was not the reason the TA killed this service, so what was? People DID ride this service to cross the Rockaway Peninsula, saying it was faster than the Q-22. I last recall the Robin as a version of the H. 'Twould be way cool if they brought it back. BTW I know the trip from Rock Park to Far Rock to BC was an inconvenience, but only to those who rode from B116/105/98 after hours...
Run A 2 car shuttle From Beach 116 St/Rockaway Park to Mott Avenue/Far Rockaway at all times to suppliment the Q22 Bus Service
Now that could work...:-)
What Letter Would Be Assigned to Round Robin Shuttle?
Probably "H". This is from the old "HH" Local which began with its north term at Court Street the site of which is today the NYTM. Later, when Rock service began, the HH became the shuttle between Euclid Avenue or Broad Channel and the ocean. When in 1985 all double letter routes were dropped, the Rock Robin became the H and finally today's truncated blue-bullet S Shuttle, no loop.
Single tracking over Hamels Wye is also not suggested.
Buses are still more handicapped friendly maybe a bit safer crime wise.
I'd prefer that over riding the Q22 whenever I use it to go on trips! Never experienced the round robin so I'm wondering how it will be if it ever comes back in the future.
In the numbers game, Mott Ave and B 60th st have the most customers of the A line, south of Howard Beach. The round-robin was a MAJOR inconvience to the majority of riders in the Far Rockaway branch because they have to go to Rock. Park first, double back through Hammels Wye just to get to Beeach 67th st, the first stop on the FR branch. This was an additional 20-30 minutes if you counting the wait at RP for the train to leave there.
Enjoy the next best thing to Round-Robin, try the G.O. this weekend on the A line, running between RP and FR only, shuttle bus at B 90th st towards Rockaway Blvd. You can mix it up with the L line G.O>, I might do a mini-report this weekend on the L line, and on the R/W screwup too. That will be on a Sunday, only the A line G.O. is Saturday till 4 PM only.
OO, a shuttle bus from B 90 St; you mean B 98 St I rode this GO so many times that means a second shuttle bus is probably going to run from Rockaway Blvd to Howard Beach. I'll be riding that no doubt; I'll post the shuttle bus story on Bustalk.
If you're riding all of these things this weekend, why don't we go together possibly. I planned on riding the major GO's on the Q and L as well this weekend so I'll be doing a ALL day field trip on Saturday.
HA HA, you know the Q train is crowded on Saturdays, and I'm a very busy person. LOL!! I might annoy you again. I will be doing the L line GO on Saturday night or Sunday afternoon, along with the R line running on the V.
I'm planning to go to the DC trip on 4/5, and Amtrak is having a 2 for 1 sale on train fare. If you interested, email me privately because the offer ends this Saturday. You don't have an email address on your name.
True, true you right. Well I'm free Saturday so I might as well go ride everything all in one day LOL; we could compare reports I guess ;-).
FYI: There is also an Amtrak offer to get you 25% off if you travel alone.
Hope to see you in April!
I know that too! Last time I was in DC was back in 1984, when L'Enfant Plaza station opened recently. The Red line only went to Grovsenor at that time, but my mother took me to Neiman Marcus in Chevy Chase, MD. (You need a VERY fat wallet to shop there, she paid only $60 for a box of chocolates at that time.)
Maybe to annoy Fred, I might wear a Bill Clinton shirt, and see how far I get before the Secret Service catches me.
I'm planning to go to the DC trip on 4/5...
DC trip??? What's this about???
You run an eight car train and break it at broad channel. The front end goes to Far Rock the back end goes to Rock Park.
When they get back to Broad Channel, they hook it back together again.
No need for extra crew either, since both halves will run OPTO.
And *that* is something that they could not have doen for the Rockin'Robin!
Elias
Oh yah, if the ROCK dares step back in the WWE rings,
he'll get bopped and whacked around in ROUND ROBIN fashion
thanks to Austin and HHH and Hogan and Angle...
O, and especially the fans who now boo that pebble.
(Hey, I said OT.... and couldnt resist the pun of
"Rock" and "Round Robin" in a sentence)
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
In addition, anyone on the MOD trip on 6/28 got a small taste of it from Euclid to Rockaway Park:
to Mott Ave/Far Rockaway:
and back to Eucl.....well uh...Howard Beach:
Well, at least I got my second ride on the Hammels wye that day (and the unused Chrystie connection). If the train had to break down, at least it didn't happen before Howard Beach.
We had to settle for THIS to take us back to Manhattan:
The TA did a GO for months where the Far Rockaway "A" was totally suspended weekdays from 10am to 3pm and the "C" was the only game in town. The passengers' response-take the shuttle bus from Far Rockaway to B. 90th St, transfer to the "C", take it to Rockaway Blvd., then transfer to the Lefferts Blvd. "A".
Really? They waited for a train that runs at 20-minute headways so they wouldn't have to ride a local that took 6 minutes longer than the express through Brooklyn?
I wonder if any of them looked out the window and noticed that their A train rarely passed the C train they had let go.
Yes, they did look out the window while approaching the South Channel Bridge, and noticed the Far Rockaway "A" train waiting for the "C" to clear.
People are stupid. All of them. Except you, unless you know them and can verify they have grey matter.
That's totally insane. At least they should have ridden the C to Rockaway Blvd or Euclid Ave (whichever could be expected to have a nicer temperature on that day) and waited there for either the Rockaway or Lefferts A, rather than just waiting for only one A service at Broad Channel.
Even with the reverse commute, the TA always threw the Far Rockaway "A" right in front of the Rockaway Park "C". So passengers in the Rockaways pretty much knew instead of taking the Leffert Blvd. "A", take the Far Rockaway "A" and transfer at either Euclid Ave or Broad Channel for the "C".
Now, during the rush hours, anything goes because the Far Rockaway "A" ran more frequently than the Rockaway Park "C" (in peak direction only) other than that the above rule always applied.
I never understood why the TA would schedule the trains like this.
I'm looking at it as a resident and an everyday or night rider of this train.
1. The ridership is very low on the Rockaway Pk branch to begin with.
2. The ride to Far Rockaway is long enough during the day when the "A" is express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
3. Now, at night you want us to make all local stops and Manhattan AND Brooklyn, then change for a shuttle and go to the Rockaway Park branch first, and after that climb down and up extra flights of steps and get on another train to get to Far Rockaway just so you by yourself can come out here once every blue moon and enjoy the service?
I don't think so.
If I was you, I wouldn't let the community board out here here your plan. LOL.
Jimmy
I need help identifying this PCC, second to last photo on this page, at CRRM in August, 1986. My guess is Los Angeles #3101?
It's a Washington D.C. car.
A suspicious person would ask: WHY would you want to identify it???
Anyway, I suspect your guess is correct. Checking the
roster of Preserved North American Railway Cars, LARy 3101
wound up at Pikes Peak, as did another car on that photo page,
Ft. Collins Birney #22. I'm not sure what the relationship
between these two organizations is. If you look at the
entry in the roster for 3101, there are two photos. One
was taken at the CRRM and is captioned LARy 3103 (probably
an error). Frank (the author of the database) doesn't indicate
that 3101 ever passed through CRRM, but there is a gap in
its ownership history
A suspicious person would ask: WHY would you want to identify it???
So I can caption the photo with something more descriptive than "PCC."
Anyway, I suspect your guess is correct. Checking the
roster of Preserved North American Railway Cars, LARy 3101
wound up at Pikes Peak, as did another car on that photo page,
Ft. Collins Birney #22...
That was the basis of my guess, assuming the car was repainted sometime between 1986 and 1997. After more searching, I found 3101 and 22 are owned by Rocky Mountain Railroad Club and leased to Pike's Peak; in fact, they were never owned by CRRM, just stored there.
Thanks!
You're right, it's Los Angeles 3101 - that's the car that was at Golden for years. I'm a little fuzzy on the ownership history of this car myself - I've got it down as being on loan to Pikes Peak from Rocky Mountain Railroad Club, but I'm not sure about the relationship between RMRC and Colo. RR Museum. My understanding is that when the car was at Golden it was owned by RMRC and on loan to CRRM, but I'm not sure of this and it may have been owned by CRRM at the time. The RMRC ownership connection is tentatively supported by the fact that Fort Collins Birney #22, also at Pikes Peak, is also apparently on loan from RMRC.
Frank Hicks
Frank, see my previous post; RMRC owns 22 & 3101 and leases them to Pike's Peak. The cars' residence at CRRM was a loan or storage arrangement with RMRC.
>>> My guess is Los Angeles #3101? <<<
I have no way of knowing if that is the correct number, but looking at pictures of Los Angeles #3099, Los Angeles #3102 and Los Angeles #3103 make it likely that you are correct.
Tom
Hmmm, #6 looks real nice ... am wondering if they would be interested in a trade ... honk honk < g >
Sorry, I don't see a pole on it :-P
That's OK, we can use Sparky ;->
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
jek...
7176-7180 are now on the property as of tonight, and are on the way to the Barn at East 180th St.
Uh Oh, where are the number plates on Car 7177? They were missing from the sides of the car.....
6986-90 should also be on the property. They were reported to have been delivered by CSX last Friday.
There may be a bundle of R-142s at Fresh Pond, as Bombardier may be trying to finish the Primary and Option I orders and start on those 1100 Series Cars....
More Later....
-Stef
darned R-142's.
?
Oh...
Well, they seem to be the dominating force now. It's amazing how time flies. We were swarmed with Redbirds in yesteryear, now they sit in watery graves. Strange....
-Stef
Run! Run for your lives~!
What's so strange about it? I think the transition from Redbirds to new-tech displays the efficiency and effort the MTA has put into bringing much needed improvement into the system. Good job, MTA!
It's just hard to believe the Redbirds were the dominating force 3 years ago. 3 Years later, they are the minority.
-Stef
Well, what can you do? They can't be possibly be maintained anymore. I don't mean to sound mean, okay?
First Inspections. So many surprises!
Why is it an alert anaway? Those R142A's aren't so hot either... ;)
Did the rapper take that name because he takes the J/Z? is he from Brooklyn?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Somehow I doubt it.
IDK if he(Jay-Z) took the name because of the subway line. He is from Marcy Projects in Brooklyn. The closest subway line to Marcy Projects is the G train. Marcy Projects sits on top of the Myrtle-Willoughby Ave station.
Da Beastmaster
Yo, Beastmaster....I did read somewhere that rapper J-Z did infact live along the route of the J-Z. Maybe he didn't spend all of his youth in the Marcy Projects.
Maybe J-Zee was a railfan!
Heh, although a lot of rappers use the subway for videos, CD covers, etc. It goes with the whole inner-city theme.
Not to mention thug or gangsta clothing. I've seen Phat Farm shirts with the MTA The Map with all of the subway routes on it. I've also seen Avirex leather jackets with what looks like a Redbird. Too tacky for me, though. Give me what the MTA has to offer!
I saw some shirt with a redbird on it but no clue as to brand name.
I also saw an Ecko shirt that has a design of a graffiti covered R32 in a holgram design superimposed into an "ecko" logo on the center (not the logo with the rhino).
Best Redbird T-shirt I've seen was worn by PBD, Jr. It had a nice Redbird with this inscription: 'Lords of the Underground'
Now that's a shirt that would sell-out at the Transit Museum if they carried it!
Eww, god. Leave it to the 'thug' clothing companies to glorify an age in NYC like that!
In the event I ever see a white T-shirt with a World's Fair R33 or World's Fair R36 on front in its "Bluebird" livery, I'm going to get it ;)
Ok, then! That's much better.
I'd also get it. I wouldn't wear it in public. But I'd get it, wrap it in dry cleaner's plastic and stash it in the back of my closet.
it's called ''urban gear'',made by the same folks that you most likely get your cloths from.....Tawian,Korea,Japan,and China....just ask Tommy,Sean John,Ralph and the others. I gather from the ''tone '' of your post,you don't like Urban wear....is it because young people[black AND white] like it? besides,it just clothes,so whats the big deal?
Maybe there is a problem with wearing "Urban Gear"? I recall a young woman was shot for her "Vansom" motorcycle-style leather jacket last year (very popular with the young, urban crowd also).
I tend to think the styles and music go hand and hand...these guys go make music videos,''flossin'' the latest in ''frest gear'',the T.V viewer is bombarded with 'the image'of the hippest cats to walk the face of the earth...7th ave decides what ''WE'' WILL WEAR this and the next year...Nike teams up with M.J to make a shoe thats cost damn near 200$ to own....and the poor unfortunate one ''see' this crap and want it,regardless if they or their parents can ''afford'' them.Yet still some people can buy suits that cost 300$ a pop,along with the shoes that cost the same price or more...buy cars that cost 50,000 at a drop of a dime,and live in condo's on 5th avenue, wear million dollar pinky rings...another way of ''FLOSSIN'',The upper class way...so if it's ok with you guys..tell me which is worst,if thats the case,the suit or the Urban wear?
You misread what I posted. I don't mind Urban Wear, but from replying to what mr.brian said about an R32 being spray-painted 'ghetto' shirt, ot was only natural they'd do that kind of thing.
I don't hate it, I just think it's tacky.
(Adding to my other post)
What's the big deal? In reality, these companeis are benefiting from the countries that make them. China, Taiwan, etc. are being exploited for corporate pockets. The people who make all of this clothing are often treated badly, are paid little and work in subpar workplaces. That my friend, is the big deal.
you dont complain when you go into these stores[K-MART/WALMART/TJ MAX and so on]and pick up a pair of these ''jeans''or polo shirts[imports from those countries]or Nike shoes.
It's nice to know you make such a gratuitious statement where I have not even told you where I purchase my own clothing. Keep from making such assertions.
You know how much it REALLY cost to make One pair of sneakers?not even a 1/3 of what there selling for....so whos the Real victim,US or THEM? I don't know. Who do you think?
it's called ''urban gear'',made by the same folks that you most likely get your cloths from.....Tawian,Korea,Japan,and China....just ask Tommy,Sean John,Ralph and the others. I gather from the ''tone '' of your post,you don't like Urban wear....is it because young people[black AND white] like it? besides,it just clothes,so whats the big deal?
I certainly can understand why clothing showing a graffiti-covered subway car would be seen as being in bad taste. The graffiti era was a very bad time indeed in the subway's history. Glorifying that era for commercial purposes just doesn't seem right.
Precisely, Mr. Rosa. That's point I was trying to make.
but its history,regardless of how you feel about it..and its nothing stopping them from doing it... but because a few of you here disagree with Fashion statement... itS wrong? you GUYS ARE just like those NIMBY'S.....
but its history,regardless of how you feel about it..and its nothing stopping them from doing it... but because a few of you here disagree with Fashion statements... itS wrong? you GUYS ARE just like those NIMBY'S.....
Jay-Z use to hang out in Bushwick alot back in the day with the rapper JAZZO[Jazz] before Jazz joined the Nation of islam[ansars].there use to be a commuity of this sect located here for years based out of Hart street and Bushwick.A sudio was up the block on Hart st[betwen Bushwick and Evergreen] that Jazz and Jay-Z use to run through quite a bit then. It was in that place where jazz cut his first track[SOFI..I believe] with Jay-Z in tow..use to see these guys over there all the time......guess thats where he got his name from....
oh.. i forgot to mention that we use to battle on the courner of Bushwick and Hart st sometimes.. grand parents own the building there... The Nation use to put on shows during the summer,show movies in the tent the use to have... all provided by Dr.York.... oh well,those were the days.....
Or "Gee G" is a very gay name for a hardcore rapper.
If his middle initial is M, it's entirely possible :)
Its a possibility since the J/Z at Myrtle Av station is a couple of blocks away from the Marcy projects so Jay-Z MAY have took that.
I heard his original name when rapping as a youth was "Jazzy." He then shortened the name to become "Jay-Z." Although it is interesting that his name coincides with the J/Z trains...
I do at times refer to the J/Z as the "Big Pimpin' Line" in reference to one of his songs ;)
That seems logical.
jazz was another rapper that he hangs out with....read my post on it.
Yes. There was a rapper named Q train in the early 90's, but he was old school and disappeared around 1993.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
That's good. Thanks.
This means that crucial projects like a new Hudson tunnel must be provided through separate appropriations sought by states. I believe Jon Corzine and Bob Toricelli (before he was disgraced) had sought money for New Jersey Transit to build an additional two tracks under the Hudson into Penn...
... Bob Toricelli (before he was disgraced) ...
You mean before he disgraced himself. I think he did jump on the bandwagon at one point, but Gov. Whitman (to the dismay of some of her advisors) made a fairly serious proposal along that line during her first term that was endorsed by Sen. Bradley and many congressmen from both parties. None of it is likely to get anywhere at this point in time, though, given the fiscal realities of the moment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just when you thought that things could not get wierder on ebay, this pops up:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2158351680&category=4152
This was discussed here last week. Originally he was asking $10,000.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was away for the weekend and Monday so I didn't see that part of the thread.
To respond to a comment on one of those postings - No - he won't get the $900, at least not as an opening bid. Those signs have not gotten that valuable yet.
IMHO, he might get $450 - $500 if he gets someone really desperate for the sign. Otherwise I would say possibly $300.
There is no opening bid; it's strictly a "Buy it Now" item. If you want a $25k map of Sussex County, NJ, maybe he'll combine shipping :)
Old maps are pricey, but not THAT pricey. My parents have a similar map of Dutchess County, NY, in better condition, that they purchased at auction for $75 back around 1970; my guess is that it would command about $500 today.
I have a feeling he's following the old P.T. Barnum adage "There's a sucker born every minute." Just one seriously overpriced item that sells to someone who hasn't researched it more than makes up for all the insertion fees for the ones that don't sell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a model show in Clark, NJ on March 1st, I'll bet there will be some roll signs for sale there.
I'd go for an original R-32 front route curtain.:)
Someone already posted it last week; the guy wanted a MIND BOGGLING $10000 at first.
Someone on e-bay is asking $1,000 for the (inaccurate) MTH R-42 set.
From today's Times:
And so you have a woman who confessed yesterday that she had developed a fresh approach to subway cars. If too many people are asleep in a car, she won't board. She fears the immobile passengers might have been gassed.
I'd say this dumb broad could use some adult diapers.
Electro-shock therapy might help as well.
She's not dumb; just paralyzed by fear by the media's incessant hammering of the terrorist threats in peoples' heads.
This is why I stopped watching the news. If something happens, it happens; hopefully it won't. But I'm not about to allow myself to become petrified by a bunch of blow-dried talking heads whose #1 worry is not terrorism but ratings.
Since we've allegedly all purchased copious quantities of duct tape, can't we perhaps get together, raid the NYC studios of the spouting head nooze networks and put that duct tape to some *USE*??? :)
Duct tape does go bad with time, use it or lose it!
Gee, I was gonna spike their coffee with Bacardi. At least then they might make SENSE. ;-)
Nah, let's go with Plan A ... I'd DYING to hear, "and that's the news, I'm wolf Bmmm-mmmrf."
Gee, I was gonna spike their [newscasters'] coffee with Bacardi. At least then they might make SENSE.
A strong laxative would be funnier. Or, for real laughs, LSD.
Taking the idea further, I say prop them up on LSD and then lock them in a room lit with flashing lights with a Santana record playing at 78 RPM for an hour. They'll never be the same again!
-Robert King
I think some of them spent the '60s and portions of the '70's that way. They'd probably just have flashbacks and end up trying to bring back the eighties.
Oh wait, we ARE back in the 80s. ALRIGHT WHO DRUGGED THE YUPPIES!
Get "Captain Morgan" to make them walk the plank!
-Robert King
Not only does the Duct Tape go bad, but more importantly, the adhesive on it goes to hell faster than the duct tape does. So your duct tape falls off.
Chuck Greene
At nearly $100.00 a roll, *real* "gaffer's tape" (which is similar to duct tape but well made) would last a decent amount of time - and when removed, leaves no adhesive bits behind. Too expensive to use on CNN or Fox Nooze reporters, but certainly worthwhile for Rumsfeld ... :)
Duct tape has gone down in price since we no longer have to tape R142
boxes up after inspection. BTW: NYPD officers hav to carry 'escape hoods' in addition to the 22 pounds of paraphenalia. Few have seen the OnTheJuice tool belt! CI Peter
Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of New Yorkers (a) believe there is some level of danger, just like there is a danger of getting run over whenever you cross the street but (b) don't drastcially change their lives or live in abject fear as a result?
It's possible for most people (if not for you) to believe in the threat, but still behave rationally and continue to have a life.
Kelly Bundy rides the subway.
Kelly Bundy rides the subway.
She'd be able to figure out how a turnstile works?
She'd be able to figure out how a turnstile works?
Heh, No, not Kelly Bundy. Would she even know how to walk down the stairs to the subway?
She'd be able to figure out how a turnstile works?
Heh, No, not Kelly Bundy. Would she even know how to walk down the stairs to the subway?
If she thinks the station is some guy's bedroom she'll be down the stairs in a flash ...
Oh boy, how often does THAT happen? People don't even fall asleep like that; I have no fear about these possible terrorist acts. If we THINK POSITIVE, then there won't be a lot of fear for riding the subways and living in general.
Now don't let's be too judgemental here. We all react to these threats in different ways, and let not forget just how awful a threat al-Qaida actually managed to carry out. Right or wrong, it's NORMAL to be a little nervous, and it's not hard to imagine how one could target something as vulnerable as the subway. I often find myself thinking oddball, irrational thoughts about how to tell if my train is at risk.
--Andrew
Finally.
An intelligent post.
Thinking and hoping and acting all brave and arrogant does automatically give you immortality nor does it protect you from any danger should one of these monsters decide to do something.
You have to live your life, sure. But to really push it and tempt trouble is downright foolhardy. If someone is threatening you with a gun, do you tell them, "I dare you - you're not man enough"? I think not. I had a classmate who supposedly did that a few years back and he met an awful demise.
I don't know about anyone else, but I think about twice flashing a wad of cash at 3 am in the morning in a subway car armed with nothing more than positive thoughts and a mean face.
The word is being cautious. Granted, some people get a little overly cautious. But that does not give the rest of us the god given right to point fingers and mock that person.
You have to live your life, sure. But to really push it and tempt trouble is downright foolhardy. If someone is threatening you with a gun, do you tell them, "I dare you - you're not man enough"? I think not. I had a classmate who supposedly did that a few years back and he met an awful demise.
I don't know about anyone else, but I think about twice flashing a wad of cash at 3 am in the morning in a subway car armed with nothing more than positive thoughts and a mean face.
Not the same things. In the gun example, the threat is real and immediate. In the subway example, the threat may not be immediate, but there's a strong possibility one exists. Now, with all this towel head terrorism crap, I am 100% convinced that there is no real threat at all.
I'm convinced as well, but you never know.
In a gun threat, MOST folks would give up their valuables and be alive BEFORE they give their lives AND their valuables to a criminal.
Well I don't know about that Peter. While I'm not worried about possible terror threats in the subways, we *STILL* have to be cautious no matter what the circumstance. Also on the subway you have to sense people who could be suspicious in general.
I'm with you Peter. All this Orange, Yellow, Pink, Lavender....whatever color alert they (the gov) throws up is merely a scare tactic so that the American people will be more easily receptive to giving up more and more of their personal freedoms. For instance, many people may not be aware that a Judge made a ruling the other day that the NYPD has the authorization to SEARCH houses of worship if they believe there is a connection to terrorist activity. This is NOT a good sign.
For instance, many people may not be aware that a Judge made a ruling the other day that the NYPD has the authorization to SEARCH houses of worship if they believe there is a connection to terrorist activity. This is NOT a good sign.
Sheesh... Time for me to start checking real estate listings in Canada. Just when I was beginning to enjoy Philadelphia...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Now, with all this towel head terrorism crap, I am 100% convinced that there is no real threat at all.
I wouldn't be nearly as sure as that.
The war in Afghanistan was an important move. We sent a powerful message to those who would harbor al-Qaida, and perhaps other groups who would carry out large scale attacks. It was an essential start to the "War on Terrorism" (which ultimately is a war against an ideology--Militant Islam, much more than it is a war against a methodology), but it was by not means the silver bullet.
Al-Qaida is still out there. They're severely (and perhaps mortally) wounded, but like a cornered panther, that could conceivably even make them more dangerous. There is little or nothing preventing them from trying something desperate, and they are not without their support base. Few in the Muslim and Arab communities subscribe to their ultra-repressive brand of Islam, but great numbers DO sympathise with the group's anti-American, anti-Western, and yes, anti-Semitic beliefs. And they've been smart enough to sell themselves to the "Arab Street" by emphasizing the things that stirr the cauldron of hatred and obscuring the real consequences of Taliban-style rule.
Amazingly, al-Qaida has still (aparently) failed to do much recruiting or even much stirring up, perhaps because any Arab government with any sense of self-preservation knew to disassociate themselves from al-Qaida like the plague, and knew to draw a line even with their virulent, hate-filled propoganda. Perhaps it's also because in today's world it's impossible to totally hide one's agenda even from a civilization as closed, stagnant and backwards as the Arab Mideast (harsh words, but true ones I'm afraid.) But by no means does this mean there aren't still many with the will and wherewithall to do great harm, and the safe houses and support systems to do it. Remember, they do not just operate out of the Mideast, but also out of European countries which haven't done enough to counter them, and also right here in America.
That's not to say al-Qaida WILL manage such a large-scale attack again--though I would never completely rule out the possibility that they might--but certainly they and many other groups still have the will and the way to carry out much smaller attacks, and indeed have done so many times since 9/11. And with places with obvious vulnerabilites like the subway, there's really only so much you can do to stop them.
Now, I stop short completely at letting this descend into panic. There is danger in life, and there always has been. I also stop short at letting it keep me off the subway. I'm just saying that to say that the threat doesn't exist is a very foolish miscalculation.
---Andrew
>>> Amazingly, al-Qaida has still (aparently) failed to do much recruiting or even much stirring up, perhaps because any Arab government with any sense of self-preservation knew to disassociate themselves from al-Qaida like the plague, <<<
Why is it so amazing? Al-Qaida is an extremely radical fundamentalist movement, opposed to any secular government. That is why they fit in with the Taliban's religious government. No secular Arab government wants anything to do with them. Arabs who are used to and like the modern aspects of their countries would like to see more freedom from religious fanatics who think the calendar should be turned back to 700 A.D.
Tom
Cautious I can understand but that person is a basket case.
I am surprised she goes into the subway at all.
Can you imagine if she overhead a conversation between railfans discussing the R142's? She would hear the Bomb in Bombardier and have a heart attack.
Was she BLONDE?
Two-ply preferably :)
Mebbe if we post a homeless guy with an intestinal problem to each car, then she won't have to worry about gas putting people to sleep.
GAAHH what some people obsess about... MOVE TO THE MOON.
"We're all afraid, Frodo, but to let that fear drive us to destroy what hope we have. Don't you see, it's madness."--Boromir
Service on the Queens Blvd/IND between Continental and Roosevelt Aves was shut down at 9:15 AM due to an incident at 63rd Drive, earlier the station was closed. I'm not saying or confirming it was a bomb threat at that station, it is possible. Service is now restored at 9:50 AM
Any details on this?
I don't know what happened, but I was stuck at Queensboro Plaza for about 20 minutes or so waiting for a train - this was around 10ish. E trains were also coming in on the local track.
E trains don't use Queensboro Plaza, it's Queens Plaza station.
Ok whatever, i'm sure people know what I was talking about. I always seem to mix the two up.
From a friend:
Downtown 4 stopped dead at 14th St at 10:15 AM. They had to open one door per car manually to let people out.
May have been Gap filler Problems. Its seems to be happening a lot lately.
Does anyone know the latest on how Metrorail's Blue Line Extension to Largo Town Center is going? How much has been accomplished?
Also, how's the Red Line's new New York Av station coming along? Can Red Line riders see anything yet as they pass the construction site?
I'll tackle the New York Ave question first---the only thing that I've seen done is the grading at the site---as for physical construction, haven't seen it yet, possibly when spring hits.
As for the Blue Line Construction, check out the web site
largotowncenter.com
Thanks for posting that.
The core group came up with three plans that we considered, plan B for Da Bronx won out:
- Plan A: Catch a LIRR M-7 from either Atlantic Ave or Penn Stn.
Unfortunately they won't be running Monday, because it's a Holiday schedule, vs. MLK Monday was a week-day schedule.
- Plan S: Take the ferry to SI & a MCI Cruiser back.
Too cold & too much snow in the forcast.
- Plan B: We'll meet at Atlantic Ave. & wait for the first railfan equipted #3 after 10 AM. At 96th we may walk over to the downtown platform to look at tower. Next, it's #2 to E 180th, then switch to #5. Back down #5 to 149th. Switch to #4.
The plan here is to ride the D from Bedford Park back to Manhattan, at 145th we would catch a A express down the West Side. Depends on a tour guide who has something to show us. We'll check on his availabality at the stop for the house that Ruth built.
Fare: One F-U-N pass.
Date: Monday February 17th
Time: 10 AM at Atlantic Ave, Brooklyn
I'll be manning the weather desk on WCBS for your field trip (5a-11a and 4p-8p). Bring snow shoes :-)
What?? no franklin ave shuttle??
Doug will sneak it in there somehow.
Peace,
ANDEE
A wiseguy....
^^^"Bring snow shoes :- )"^^^
ROTFLOL
;- ) Sparky
Don't forget the duct tape.
Peace,
ANDEE
And maybe a shovel???? ;)
"What's a shovel" asks longtime Sea Cliff Resident Claudia Moyne
:-o
Sounds like a great idea, Thurston. I'll plan on being there! Do you have a specific meeting spot in the Atlantic Avenue station? -Nick
2/3 Northbound Plat at the North end. (Uptown end of 2/3)
Thanks, Lou...see you there hopefully! -Nick
I will try to be there.
Would like to meet you
10AM northbound 2/3 local track at Atlantic
Thank You
Would be another notch on my belt < g >
It one of the great things about these trips. Every one of them I've met some more of the SubTalk family.
i going to try and make also, but i have my eye on the weather.
It will be nice to see you again, if you can make it !
The Faxman added greatly to our MLK Monday trip.
We were on the HBLR going South & he knew that they typically wrong railed going to 34th Street. So we were all prepaired for it. Little things like that made the trip just that much better.
i am still watching the weather!!!! the subways could be fun after a nice snowfall
If it's not too deep & you live close to a mass transit line then it does make for some great photo ops !
I had to come home via the LIRR in a snow storm a couple of times ... was nervious the train was going to stall. Boy those crowds in Penn Station get to be something. Also, took mass transit & walked from Sunnyside to JFK one morning during a snow storm. Pushed a guy out of a snow bank on the Van Wyke ... he gave us a lift from Queens Blvd. to JFK.
will Amtk/Lirr run?
Depends on the depth of the snow, also whether it's light or wet.
With the cold weather I would guess that the LIRR will be able to keep running even in over a foot of snow.
There was a post on Railroad.NET about NY & Atl being asked to bring their GP-38 out east to doing some plowing toward Montauk last week.
But the Amtrak Vermonter?
The LIRR sometimes has had trouble with it's electric operations sometimes in the past. I remember a few years back they substituted diesel trains (when the old equipment was still here) on some of it's electric branches. I think if the third rail becomes submerged, the electrics have trouble and short out or something sometimes. The diesels of course don't have that problem. Though our new friends (or enemies), the DM-DE30's, have not really run here in the snow. Since we have had them we have not really had harsh winters to see how they do in the snow. I guess we will find out tomorrow.
For the time being, we'll have to remember the good ole days on the LIRR......
By the way, how does the subway usually fare on some of it's surface running lines, like the Sea Beach and Brighton? On the els it's seems like as long as the trains are running, it kind of knocks some of the snow off the els, but in some of the lines with cuts, I could imagine that the snow starts to build up.
Oy...he's throwing in the towel...
Well, we have a Blizzard a coming with a light dusting already here in NYC, Sunday evening, and one to a foot and a half in the forcast.
My son in Delaware already has a foot on the ground from the storm that is headed North ... it's dumping on southern NJ as I write this.
Anyhow, this is to inform all my friends that I won't be vernturing in from Long Island to Brooklyn for any railfanning :-(
BTW, did you find EVERYBODY in the neighaborhood grocery shopping ?
My wife & I did.
"Anyhow, this is to inform all my friends that I won't be vernturing in from Long Island to Brooklyn for any railfanning :-( "
I'm sorry thid trip won't go through, Thurston...but certainly the subtalk community understands the weather situation. Hopefully we'll be able to reschedule it for the near future. -Nick
Nick, et., al.,
It something I realy look forward to doing for many reasons, so you can bet that there WILL be another sometime in the near future !
Meanwhile the next event is the Shoreline Charter of our Low-V. Sign up now with Sparky (John S).
Also, this Friday is another ERA night, so if you are in the City stop by & say hello to some of your friends.
Cool, I'll look forward to it. :-) -Nick
What a WUSS! A little snow and this guy's throwing in the towel. :)
Give him a break, Doug. Falling snow hits Thurston before it hits us.
Only my friends know that < g >
I would just like to extend my best wishes and a hearty congratulations to NYCT and its contractors on the occasion of the two-year anniversary of beginning the escalator replacement work at Boro Hall station on the 2/3 IRT line. Its very seldom that one observes such a lofty level of bureaucratic incompetence operate hand in hand with such slow, inefficient and expensive contracting work.
Nice work, everyone.
Mind boggling, isn't it?
At my place of employment we have 100 year old escalators, rarely are they out of service.
Peace,
ANDEE
How long did 14th St/8th Ave take to complete? 10 Years?
At least that was an entire STATION. This is just ONE escalator bank consisting of TWO escalators!
And the elevator to the Flushing platform at Grand Central station? That took more than 2 years.
You mean the elevator to nowhere? That seldom operates, if ever!!!
;-) Sparky
The elevator is now running at this time. BELIEVE IT...OR NOT!
And here I thought I was a voice in the wilderness calling the TA inept. Since I live in California what I believe can be dismissed at drivel by the powers-that-be if that be their choice, but when a whole host of New Yorkers weigh in with criticism that make the TA look like a pack of boobs someone over there should at least be listening.
with criticism that make the TA look like a pack of boobs
Nah... They Cleaned up 42nd Street years ago!
David,
I spoke with the person that would be knowlegable, if it is operating
or not, my bride, the "BOSS". She says the OOS signs are gone,
but in the AM, nobody goes for the elevator. They use the escalator
at that end of the platform.
In the PM, when she enters at R238 and the escalator is operating,
she uses it to go to the #7 platform. That's most times in the 1706
slot. She says it's hell at that time to walk to where the elevator starts on the GCT mezanine. But she does use the one in the terminal from Metro North down to Subway level.
;-) Sparky
PS-I know what time slot at R238 PM, beause she is eligible for
Mail 'n Ride, so we get a monthly statement.
Just received the following email from the "BOSS":
^^^"I meant to tell you earlier.
BUT, WHO ever said that the elevator at Grand Central ( the one to no where)
Is not working. I looked this morning and saw, gates and a repair sign."^^^
This is a visual observation between 0600 ~ 0615 this AM, 14 February, 2003.
:-( Sparky
It was out last night, again! As you mentioned, theres a yellow gate blocking it. So once again, Grand Central is no longer ADA compliant.
I would just like to extend my best wishes and a hearty congratulations to NYCT and its contractors on the occasion of the two-year anniversary of beginning the escalator replacement work at Boro Hall station on the 2/3 IRT line. Its very seldom that one observes such a lofty level of bureaucratic incompetence operate hand in hand with such slow, inefficient and expensive contracting work.
NYCT managers from Larry Reuter on down should be paying with their jobs for this travesty. For its part, the contractor should get no additional payments at all and be required to pay back everything it's already gotten plus interest. Of course, nothing of the sort will happen.
The scum contractors who rip off NYCT (and the retarded managers at 370 Jay Street and 2 Broadway) should be commended for letting customers who work in Downtown Brooklyn,as well as other contractors throughout NYCT the S H A F T for this travesty. How long did it take for escalators to be replaced at 161St St/River Ave? Or at 181st/IND station, south side? Is NYCT (the agency that cannot tell the difference between F train and F troop.) that dumb to pay contractors who mess up or go bankrupt? If it's done in-house, then the job does get done or in many cases, ahead of schedule.
CONGRADULATIONS TO NYCT IN-HOUSE FORCES.
THE DONKEY AWARD GOES TO THE CONTRACTOR FOR THE bROUGOH hALL ESCALATOR JOB AND THE CONTRACTOR FOR RENOVATIONS AT 2 BROADWAY (TIE!)
The orignal contractor went bankrupt. The TA let the insurance agency that issued the work bond to find another one instead of getting payment of the bond.
There was a huge delay in finding a contractor to continue the work.
Thank you, Lou, for at least posting a pertinent fact instead of a verbose rant. It's easy to vent about a seeming inconvenience without knowing any of the real facts. The TA and other public agencies are bound by many complicated procurement regulations that can often slow down construction work. And when doing work like this in a 95 year old station under never-ending service, there are literally "hidden" problems that do not appear until after the work is begun. And then when the worst case occurs as was the issue here..the contractor goes belly-up, you can't just go to Home Depot and do it yourself.
It's really easy to criticise, condemn, and complain...but it's a lot harder to do some research and get the real facts.
And to think that when I say the title of this post I actually believed a compliment was forthcoming. Sarcasm is often appropriate..but not in this case.
It could be a lot worse. How about the Lenox Invert mess that took (at least) two years and eight topsy turvy months to fix? How about the 161st Street-River Av project that was too ambitiously scheduled? And don't get me started with the Manhattan Bridge (shamefully to say, I was in kindergarten when the project on the bridge began. I may be in law school by the time it is finally finished.)
The Manhattan Bridge fiasco. If that doesn't take the cake for ineptness then nothing does. How on earth does it take a decade and a half to get the work done that could be accomplished in three or four? Someone is ripping off the public because the taxpayer is getting hit in the shorts, but it seems clear that those in power could give a rip because they look at the populace as either a bunch of dunces or a cash cow.
Why are you holding NYCT culpable for NYCDOT work on the Manhattan Bridge? NYCT can't run trains over tracks that don't exist.
Okay, so I should not have pinned it all on NYCT, but my point is that no matter which agency transportation agency you turn to that does work in this city things move too slow.
I’m surprised that there wasn’t an honorable mention to the other escalators down to the BMT. I haven’t been to Boro Hall since last August, but at that time they were out of service 6 months and counting!
John
I thought those were the escalators he was referring to. I know it's been well over a year. It's quite a climb without them. The other escalators aren't as big a deal.
That's what you think. Try walking up those stairs while carrying heavy objects and wearing heavy clothing. The BMT escalators are working, at least the last time I checked.
The IRT escalators only go up two flights, don't they? That's annoying but not terrible. The BMT escalators are longer and come in the middle of what's already a substantial climb. (Ever try to transfer from the BMT to the SB 4/5?)
They were boarded up the last time I was there, within the past month. They've been boarded up since 2001. If they've opened within the past month, wonderful! It's about time. It didn't look like anyone had been working there for a while.
I took the A to High Street at lunch hour today (I went to Jacques Torres Chocolates on Water Street to get my wife a Valentine's Day gift), and to my extreme surprise ALL THREE of the escalators at the west entrance were working.
Sorry about the wildly off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone can point me towards Vera Cruz streetcars still around in the U.S. The only ones I can think of offhand are the two open cars at Trolleyville, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there may be a few more. For one thing, San Francisco Muni apparently used to have one but doesn't anymore (where did it go?). Thanks for the help...
Frank Hicks
I just added a photo of the Veracruz streetcar in San Francisco to the SF portion of the site; Peter Ehrlich reported it went back to Veracruz after the trolley festivals.
Nothing about streetcars is OT.
Curious as to the status or disposition of all that ancient equipment over at Veracruz. They had quite a variety of cars over there:
Mexico City Peter Witts (similar to Philly's)
El Paso Birneys
Pacific Electric suburban cars
ConnCo cars
ETC, ETC.
I think they stopped operating a while back. I should know this, but my brain is not fully spooled up this morning. Was at a job site fighting with steam/water leaks until 11:30 last night.... gaah, what I find sometimes.
With all the stressful reality these dark times bring, would it be possible to arrange a Fantrip using a few operable R-1/9 cars from the TA Collection? I think something nice like that would do us all a world of good. Possibly a route to include Far Rock, CI, and maybe Conc Yard if they'll let us. It occurs to me that as vocal as we are (and with many SubTalkers being TA professionals to boot), it could be done! I think the last R-1/9 fantrip in the TA was in 1982, for the 50th anniversary of the original IND. What do you all think? (Don't gang up on me now...;-)
Selkirk be willing to revisit school car for requalification if there's nobody else already on the property to run 'em. Me LIKE! :)
Is there a Motor Instructor still on the job who can qualify folks on prewar equipment? I never thought of that, but I suppose so...I want this trip, where there's a will there's a way!
Somebody's running the Triplexes, so there's at least ONE person qualified, even if the stands are backwards on those. I'm sure I won't be getting a phone call. :)
But I *am* available should the need arise ...
True that...
If they could schedule such a trip in say, October, that would be great. I don't suppose I could convince anyone to let me play conductor.:)
Do you REALLY think they're gonna let ME run the train? :)
But I suppose if you're willing to take training and get the cert, they might. Party on, Garth. Heh.
And where do you plan to come up with the funding or manpower to restore these cars? We are streched thin as it is with the cars we are working on. Getting some R-9's running just is not possible at this time. I hate to sound like this but consider yourself lucky that we have the D types to ride.
I guess we can predict what NYCT will come up with for the 100th Anniversary of the subway next year, then: Nothing. If they had any serious plans for getting any of the museum trains which are not in service now in service in time for the anniversary, shouldn't they have already started?
I suspect that as close as we're all gonna get is the LoV/HiV funpass at Branford ... I know that whatever it TAKES to get up there and ride's gonna have to do it. Paturkey don't believe in foamers, we ain't GOT the kinda "juice" GE can drop. And it's HIS "transit museum" ... but no, it's getting REALLY late for any hope of LoV's on the Lex or Broadway now. We'll be lucky if the MUSEUM is open by 2004 at this rate. :(
They definitely should have started by now. If they do decide to do something after all, they'll either have to work like mad to pull it off or it'll be too late.
Don't feel so bad, New York isn't alone. The 50th anniversary of the opening of the TTC's first subway takes place next year as well. They don't even have a museum train to restore and this is one occasion where the PCCs and the Peter Witt are not going to cut it. I'm not aware of any discussion at all taking place at the TTC regarding the Yonge line's 50th - not a hopeful situation at all.
I was thinking that if nothing takes place up here, a trip to New York for their 100th would be in order, but the 100th looks doubtful.
-Robert King
I suppose all we could hope for, if NYC Transit decides to have the rolling stock parade we suggested in our combined letter, is that the equipment is towed with a diesel ....
--Mark
Aggggh! HERESY! Do you guys need help rewinding MOTORS? What would it take? (I don't do cosmetics, perhaps the Arnines should be REMEMBERED for their peeling paint) ... Wish I could do something to make it happen, but it'd be *FAR* more appropriate to roll Gibbs cars, HiV's, or at LEAST LoV's for 2004 ... Hylan can wait. :)
sad but true i agree with you ..........looks like nothing .......
oh but ,..maybe a new temp. tatoo on some rolling stock
"" HAPPY 100TH BIRTHDAY "" .............no.....lol......
Dave,
The situation is complicated because of the legal relationships
between the Transit Museum (an independent 501c(3) corporation
under the control of the MTA), the TA (which owns most of the
museum equipment), and RPC (which owns the rest and leases them
back to the TA).
I know there are plans underway to have museum trains operating
in 2004. Of course, the focus should be the A division, and the
only cars available for that (they need work) are the Lo-Vs.
Although there have been no formal talks that I know of, it wouldn't
be out of the question that some other preserved IRT equipment from
Branford or Seashore is loaned for the events, but I don't think
anything would be operable for passengers.
It would be nice if Gibbs 3352 could be brought down for a token appearance; after all, chances are it actually ran on Day One if it was on the property. And if 3662 were to come down, you'd have a joyful reunion of the two lone surviving Hi-Vs.
Sir,
Given that the entire system is on the National Register of Historic Places, it would be a sorry shame if the TA did not mark its Centennial year with trips, displays and programs galore! If I recall, in 1979 our GNP was about 2/3 of what it was today and the fare was fifty cents, but that didn't stop the TA from doing some interesting things for the Diamond Jubilee, including the special token and NYTM exhibits. Historical events like the subway Centennial are important because our City's development would have been impossible without the growing transit system to support it.
If money is an issue, I'm sure that the Endowment for the Arts or the National Education Association would sponsor Centennial events (including fantrips) because the subway is art, architecture, and most importantly, cherished history.
Jeff
[Given that the entire system is on the National Register of Historic Places]
I must be missing something....since when is that true???
The subway has been on the Register for a while now. I do not recall the exact date, but it was done in the late '90s, primarily to protect the original artwork in Contract One stations.
Unfortunately there are only 2 or 3 R1-9 cars that could be
construed as operable at this time.
Yes, a fan trip could be done with R1-9's, but as Jeff H. has pointed out there are only 2 or 3 available for a trip, and they need much mechanical (and asthetics) work to get them into passenger service. I'd look more to 2004 or 05 for an R-1/9 trip (with obviously limited capacity).
Rock, Scissors, Paper for the controls, bro. PSSSssssshhhhhh! :)
That and lots of duct tape (and perhaps Bondo). Moo.
Duct tape? Nope, we're out of stock. Fortunately we can STILL tie up the plastic sheeting with bailing wire. :)
Well if nothing works out down there, Billy has been working on 800 and 1440 last summer and this winter. so we can now run two car train of R 1-9 at Seashore so if anyone is up for a weekend subtalk field trip to Seashore let myself or stevie know and with todds help we can organize a weekend to remember.
That sounds excellent! How long is the drive to Seashore from Queens?
Six plus hours, assuming you stick to the speed limit... but you'll pass close to two other trolley museums on the way (Branford and Warehouse Point) so figure it's more like three days :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did it once from Roslyn in 5-1/2 hours in a school bus that was governor-limited to 65.
According to Mass transit Magazine, metro-North has ordred 180 M-7s from Bombardier.
BTW Has anyone seen the M-7s running in a consist greater than 6 cars?
I haven't actually seen an M-7 consist longer than 6 cars, but a friend of mine who takes the LIRR often tells me that one of the evening Long Beach peak trains consist of 8 M-7's.
"According to Mass transit Magazine, metro-North has ordred 180 M-7s from Bombardier."
I hear that Metro North will receive theirs after the LIRR's are all delivered. Then we can all kiss goodbye those classic 1100's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nooo! Oh well, such is progress. At least their replacements also have large windows. Are any planned to go to museums?
"Are any planned to go to museums?"
Not sure Henry, but now is the time to act.
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to read that magazine. Where do you get issuews of it? Can you read it on-line?
I get it at work. Try www.masstransitmag.com
David
Thanks
I'm not sure, but the one that passes through Lawrence at noon on the Far Rock branch seems to be a bit longer than 6 cars. I'll check Tuesday. The run has reliably been an M-7 for a month or so now, though there was a period for a few days when it was replaced by older MUs for whatever reason.
My catalog price list states that the MTH R-12's were to be delivered last month yet I have not seen any comments about them.
Has MTH delayed delivery on these sets too?
The previous delivery date for the R-12's was February, 2003, according to the MTH website; it looks as though they moved THREE of the sets (both Protosound sets and one Locosound set) back to August. The 4th (Locosound) set shows March delivery; my guess is that this is either a misprint, or the three August ones are. The R-32 ass-on set has supposedly been pushed back to March, too.
The good news is that the yellow R-17 "rider" car has started shipping (even though the last posted shipping date was April) --several people on the OGR board claim to be getting their sets this weekend.
The R-32 ass-on set has supposedly been pushed back to March, too.
Unintentional ROTFLMAO!!
--Mark
I can't beleive I typed that!!!!
If it's like most of their other deliveries, expect the R-12's to be available by in mid-summer. :(
anyone know what's with the L g.o. this weekend (as in what work is going on in the tunnel btw. brooklyn and manhattan)?
i heard a very silly rumor that there is no work to be done - they just want to block potiental protesters from willyburg from getting into town (Try not to laugh too hard at that one!). i sympathize with the demonstrators, but i'd rather deal in facts... so if you got them, drop ehm here.
They're chipping concrete on Switches #6 and #9 at Third Avenue.
David
I once read somewhere that the original purpose of the R-38's was to exclusively run on the "D" line in 1966. Then I read that they actually went to the "E" and "F" lines. BUT, the earliest photos of them in service seem to all be "RR" trains in 1966. Does anybody out there recall the reasoning for this?? Personally, my earliest memories of them was on the "AA" and "B" lines in the '70's. Tony
The R38 were assigned to Jamaica yard, therefore were used on the E and F service. Publicity photos were taken by NYCTA showed RR service. Cranking the roll sign down to the correct service is a pain, so the helper just cranked it down to whatever is closest to the end of the roll (should have been TT).
Article in Friday's Times.
...police have increased patrols and checkpoints...
...more undercover officers are riding the trains and the Police Department has increased patrols by its "Hercules teams."
The Police Department has also posted officers at the entrances to each of the 16 underwater subway tunnels. More officers will sweep through stations and tunnels, stop trains and walk through the cars. And state officials said they would assign 100 National Guard soldiers to help the police patrol in the subways.
and more
A small little lesson needs to be offered also (not that I'm saying the concerns aren't justified by ANY means) but there's another angle we're forgetting here, and THAT is the press' problem ...
Lemme tell you a little story about a guy named Abbie Hoffman, a "terrorist" of the political kind in his own day when government was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that long-haired hippe type individuals were going to take over the country by violent revolution. Although laughable today, it was very MUCH like what NYC is facing now. Even then, there were bombings, loss of life and folks were afraid of their own shadows.
Abbie was kinda honked off (yes, I knew him since I worked at WBAI and interviewed him often, even got my own FBI folder as a result) about his phone being tapped. So he'd go to a payphone and use that, only to find out that THAT was bugged too. For those who didn't understand Abbie, he was a twisted soul who took delight in his notoriety and got his own yayas "shoving it up their stovepipe" when it came to "authority." Abbie was actually a kibbitzer who loved to abuse his "newfound power" under surveillance, he was actually QUITE harmless and was only seeking attention. *THAT* however was wrongfully LAVISHED on him and he just ate it up. The more attention he was GIVEN, the more he felt the urge to ABUSE it.
So one Friday aftenoon, he'd had his fill of the changing shifts under his window and went down to the payphone he *KNEW* was bugged and called up a few friends of his. Abbie had hatched the ULTIMATE plot ... he was going to HIJACK THE STATEN ISLAND FERRY, and he wanted his "accomplices" to meet him at South Ferry, so he told each. "Meet me at Water Street, we're going to hijack the Staten Island Ferry and take it to Cuba. Meet me at 4:50" and then called the next. He then got on a bus, headed cross town, called them BACK up and let them in on the gag, told them to meet him outside of 66 Water St to "watch the fun."
Sure enough, at the beginning of rush hour on a Friday, South Ferry was cordoned off with armed cops and Coast Guard as far as the eye could see, Abbie and his buddies (and a reporter from WBAI who shall remain unnamed) chuckling over the fuss that they'd created. Abbie, feeling no guilt about causing a scene told this reporter, "the morons don't REALIZE that you CAN'T hijack the Staten Island Ferry and take it to Cuba, it runs out of fuel just before it docks. It'll never get out of the freaking HARBOR, much less to Cuba" ...
There's a lesson here though - the mere use of WORDS in a "heightened state of alert" can cause *FAR* more damage than the real thing. Getting everyone in emergency services doing a "chinese fire drill" (apologies for the stereotype, but the "visual" helps to make the point) can cause even MORE disruption than an actual attack. Hundreds of THOUSANDS of people were inconvenienced for NOTHING, a general "state of panic" was offered to the public and the curious, and everybody just plain flipped out, all over "chatter" on a bugged payphone.
The moral of the story is that "terrorists" are all about TERROR. An antsy public, and a completely out of control media can get more mileage by getting us all worked up than would actually result from an actual terrorist act. All you need to perform successful terrorist acts is to USE someone else's "bombing" and make a lot of crank phone calls *KNOWING* that the media will overreact and whip everyone into a puddle at their feet. And of course, at great expense, any potential incident requires that the "firetrucks roll" even if it's a suspected false alarm because NOT responding is political death to a public service.
Bottom line, the terrorists don't NEED to actually bomb the subway, all they need to do is tell us they're GOING TO ... and WE'LL do their work for them. America has invested a LOT in duct tape. Time to use some of it on the media. The POLICE, the MILITARY and EMERGENCY SERVICES need to know if there's a threat. *WE* who are unable to do anything ABOUT it DO NOT NEED TO BE TOLD OF EVERY THREAT.
When reality deviates from the preceding paragraph, then it's our own LEADERS and our own MEDIA that are the terrorists. Meanwhile, back in Usama's cave, they're kicking back, sucking down brewskis and laughing themselves senseless at us ... just like Abbie did 30 years ago. :(
>>> The POLICE, the MILITARY and EMERGENCY SERVICES need to know if there's a threat. *WE* who are unable to do anything ABOUT it DO NOT NEED TO BE TOLD OF EVERY THREAT. <<<
We are not told of every threat nor all the details of what the government knows, but it is better to be told that the government has reason to believe there may be some terrorist activity, when in fact there is intelligence to that effect, than just to see heavily armed police showing up at various places and emergency vehicles running all around town with no explanation. That would lead to rumors of plots the government is hiding from us.
Tom
Agreed ... but did we REALLY need to be told to get duct tape and kill anyone who gets between us and the tape counter? Did you catch the MORON in Connecticut WRAPPING HIS FLIPPING HOUSE in plastic? And then putting HOLES in it by STAPLING it to the outer walls? This guy gave me faith in Darwin, though it's misplaced. :(
I won't waste space arguing the futility and stupidity of that. But let's focus the "spotlight" on the serious lackings of the "plan" here. What *IS* the common Joe to do here? Has anyone told us something USEFUL like how to spot a guy sweating in THESE temperatures, who WON'T take one hand out of his coat pocket and is shifty-eying in all directions?
If there's ANYTHING you can count on with respect to native New Yorkers (or transplants with five plus years in-title) is that there is a survivability quotient to us all - we KNOW when something "smells funny," it's a way of life.
Where *ARE* the Ex-Moussad types on TV telling us that if somebody is walking around in an overcoat in 80 degree temperatures, something is WRONG ... or how about how to SPOT a "suspicious person" or how to tell if something or an errant package doesn't look right? Nope, we'll have none of that - vague alerts, let's get everybody whipped up when we KNOW they haven't a clue as to what to *DO* ... THAT'S what has me honked off.
You inform the citizenry as to what and how to help. You inform the citizenry that you have a heightened state of alert for probable cause, and expect to see more cops. Hell, any time the President of the United States comes to town, those warnings are given and all it usually means to the average person is don't TRY to park on First Avenue. :)
But getting them all whipped up, sending them ravaging the shelves of hardware stores, and leaving them feeling more and more helpless is doing *FAR* more harm than good. Lemme put it to you this way - I have, through some friends of mine who STILL work for the state, some "chatter" about "trends" ... the number of vacancies in rental units shot up - contingency plans of businesses (not only downstate, but UPSTATE TOO) are causing a MASSIVE movement out of New York, New York City and the immediate area (Jersey's seeing the same as is Connecticut) ...
About all this "chatter" has succeeded in is making people MOVE OUT.
I understand your point, believe me ... but our LEADERS are outdoing the terrorists with the current "regime" of the "Ministry of Truth."
Haven’t you realized that getting people to buy duct tape is the latest Shrub economic plan. He has a buddy who owns Acme Tape Co…
Much as it would be filled with useful advice on how to use the duct tape, it would be very unpatriotic for you guys to watch "The Red Green Show" to find out how to use it.
-Robert King
"We can't help it, we're MEN!" :)
OH the uses ... Rumsfeld alone could consume ... never mind, impure thought, gotta turn myself in.
Heh. Or Homer's De-pot. But what's good for 3M is good for America. Sorry I missed the investment opportunity, but my retirement is caught up in Gomez Addams and Continental Lint. :(
Gotta watch out for those Acme Guys ... Wile E Coyote informs me that they have, as Microsoft refers to them, some "issues."
There's always Acme Aspirin.:)
Even the New York Times (Free subscription required) is chiming in with its own take on Duct Tape:
What is at stake is not just a popular adhesive product but a system of values. Duct tape is national shorthand for a job done almost right. It separates the technocratic repair elite—who will order the right part to fix their stove—from the common folk, who express their individuality and short attention span by slapping on a piece of silver tape.
So there you have it!
John
PS: The article is in the Fashion & Style section!
Personally, I prefer gaffer tape. Only trouble is finding it.
You know, if too many people do horde duct tape, there will be a problem in the very near future holding the roofs of the R-40 slants together (I suppose now that there are fewer and fewer Redbirds in service, the Homeland Security people could substitute Bondo for duct tape in a bio weapons attack since there should be more of that available to the general public, but mixing the stuff and caulking your doors and windows with it might take too long compared to the tape, depending on wind direction of course...)
Duct tape and plastic sheeting...of little value in a apartment building with air leaks.. Just found out that National Guard was supposed to provide 'protective services' at our yard and have yet to show up. Our supervisors told us to remove anything marked NYCTA from our vehicles in the event we get stopped and searched. The whole concept is ludicrous and the idea of a kid standing there with a M16A4 to protect me is insane. Of all the people I know who value
living in the U.S., it's the Rooskies in my crew.
Tip of the day: notify law enforcement of anyone on premises seen with facial cuts/bleeding as it may be evident of the removal of a beard. (Or cheapass CIs who use Bic single edge razors purchased at the Dollar Store.)
Ho ho ho ho hole in the hole BIE stick you fingers in your ears and save your thumb!!! CI Peter
Heh heh, that was a funny story, Abbie Hoffman was one cool dude! It'a laugh watching the police overreact to everything.
Not so funny now ... but hey, what if they DIDN'T and Abbie DID manage to get the boat out of the harbor? :)
But in all seriousness, I was 19 at the time and didn't get it. Some of our leaders are FAR older and SHOULD. :(
I'd think the ferry would have ran out of fuel around Sandy Hook and the Coast Guard would have towed it back.
Probably sooner than that even. When I got called to do the story and checked it out, I did my coverage of the night, and then went back a week or so later and talked to the "Marine and Maritime" (if I remember) folks and they assured me that it wouldn't have made it past Kill Van Kull (or whatever) and DEFINITELY would not have left the (then) "three-mile limit" ... I'd ridden enough of them years ago to actually have HEARD the motors die (70's) as they ran out of fuel and hit the pier at South Ferry a few seconds later ...
I didn't understand the cops flipping out back when it happened, but over the years I've come to appreciate the reason. But ANYBODY taking Abbie Hoffman *seriously* had to be out of their mind. Then again, NIXON. 'nuff said. :)
"Aviation and Marine" ... THAT's it! It was one of those weird department names that used to run that ... kept making me think of "Trans-Dogpatch air" in that OK, NYC runs boats ... well, OK ... but LINDSAY running an AIRLINE!?!?! Horrors! Heh. But yeah, they swore up and down that if one of their boats actually made it out of the harbor, then keep a keen eye peeled for Godzilla. :)
>>> I'd ridden enough of them years ago to actually have HEARD the motors die (70's) as they ran out of fuel and hit the pier at South Ferry a few seconds later ... <<<
MOTORS??? Ferryboats ran with engines in my day. Are you sure that they were out of fuel? Wasn't it more probable that the captain signaled to the engine room "Done with Engines" prematurely while preparing to close that wheelhouse and transfer to the one at the other end or the boat? I certainly do not remember seeing them refueling between runs.
Tom
Sorry, let my electric traction terms get the best of me. As far as nautical stuff goes (I'm over 150 miles inland, boats schmoats) I couldn't find the poopdeck if I was sitting on one. :)
I can only tell ya what I got told when I followed up on the story by the folks I contacted at "Aviation and Marine" who ASSURED me that the Staten Island Ferry in 1971 was UNABLE to leave the harbor powered. What the specifics were was beyond the scope of the story I was doing or my own expertise. But they said flat out, Abbie wouldn't have made it to the Jersey Shore before he had an empty tank.
I don't believe the boat in question is still running, and I forget the name of the vessel after all these years. It WAS one of the smaller ones.
>>> I couldn't find the poopdeck if I was sitting on one. <<<
No! No!, it's called the head. :-)
Tom
See? Call me a traditionalist, but ... nah, never mind. Only time my sea legs ever worked was on moving trains. I'll let someone else do the Monica joke. :)
There's a lesson here though - the mere use of WORDS in a "heightened state of alert" can cause *FAR* more damage than the real thing.
Word up!
The media is now reporting this ... The basis of the Orange Alert was an Al-Qaeda "informant" who proclaimed that some sort of attack on NY, Washington or Florida was imminent. Someone thought to give this scum a lie-detector test AFTER these proclamations and he FLUNKED ....
--Mark
And yet, the damage is done ... STAY AWAY FROM THE FOAMER GLASS! (more room for ME) ... why am I not surprised? Can't WAIT to see how today's UN testimony gets spun by those seriously in need of gainful employment. :(
Mind ya, I'm not against hanging the terrorists, we got PLENTY of trees upstate if downstate runs short of supply. But it's REALLY getting to be time to figure out who the *REAL* terrorists *ARE.* :(
You know what REALLY worries me? Look what the headlines would be without Iraq and OrangeCrush Alert:
-- Senate Challenges Latest Twenty-Five Ultra-Right Judge Appointments
-- Democratic Governors to White House: Cut Out the HHS Cuts
-- NASA: Farebox Hike or More Cutbacks?
-- Can ALL the States Rank Last in Education?
-- Watch Out: Global Warming Comes Back Next Winter, Big Time
Yep, wouldn't want THAT! Run for your lives! Disregard that man behind the curtain. :(
But hey, AOL/CNN wants to know what you're WEARING ... "terror chic?"
My general comment on the whole shebang is to videotape the nightly newz tonight and then put the tape away for the next 12 months.
Then, sometime in 2004, play it back and see how much of the broadcast drivel still fits.
Betcha 3-1 that the only way you can really tell is to watch the sports segment - that may be the only thing that's really different (but then, maybe not).
Factiod of the week: More spam is delivered to AOL mailboxes than any other place. You can look it up.
Streetcar fact: There is only 1 Pullman-Standard air-brake PCC in operating condition. Name it.
They've cut back service on Ashmont-Mattapan to one streetcar?
-Robert King
Incorrect. Try again.
Hint: Boston Pullman-Standard PCC's are air brake, but have a right side center door one window further to the rear, plus the left side center door. What I'm talking about is a standard, 46 foot car.
----
Streetcar fact: There is only 1 Pullman-Standard air-brake PCC in operating condition. Name it.
----
Ok, that clears up exactly what the question was after. Have they sorted out what's going on with the water pipe near the PCC in question?
-Robert King
I guess by that logic ex MBTA 3333 at Warehouse Point would
be disqualified?
Streetcar fact: There is only 1 Pullman-Standard air-brake PCC in operating condition. Name it.
Any chance it's Baltimore Transit Company's #7407?
Soitenly!!
You've been there, so you have "insider information".
Rob King (up in the Great White North) blew his first try. Let's see if he gets it right on the second try.
No, I bent the question because you didn't specify a specific type of Pullman PCC. I have to have some fun now and again.
-Robert King
I see 7407 has had a St. Louis born "sister" from Texas move in.
Brilliant post, Selly!
Kevin, some of what you say is true. But keep in mind - there were actual bombings back then, too. There was the little incident at the townhouse on W 11th St. Then there were the FALN bombings (who Ms Clinton supported executive pardons for in exchange for Puerto rican votes). On the Left Coast we had the SLA and their particular brand of mayhem. Times were unsettling, yes, but we never had terrorism of the scope that we have seen recently.
Even back to a the Arab & PLO terrorists of the 80s. they hijacked and blew up planes, they hijacked an ocean liner and shot one person in a wheel chair. Even Pan Am flight 103, as horrific as it was, was planned solely to destroy the aircraft and it's unfortunate occupants.
The type of catastrophic actions that we saw on 9/11 marked a new era in terrorism. Massive destruction and massive body counts. Of course, preceding 9/11, we had warnings. Bombings of US interests in Africa, using a small boat to hit the USS Cole, etc. These all should have given us some warning that the face of international terrorism was changing.
So, I agree that the terrorists are likely having a good laugh at our expense. As you say, they only have to send a few e-mails about a mythical attack and watch us scurry to cover our asses. However, let your guard down once, one time don't cover your ass, and those bastards will remind us once again that we can't afford to take chances.
Every NYCT employee is receiving security training. That will help. But, in reality, with the subterranian population density being what it is, even a relatively small terrorist act can result in a disproportionately large loss of life and harsh economic consequence. Can we really afford not to take precautions?
(Can we really afford not to take precautions?)
No. Here's my wife's new concern -- the newsstands. Someone making a delivery could smuggle something nasty down in a candy box. Other than employees and contractors, the newsstands are the only way to get something larger than a briefcase into the system without atttracting attention. Just takes one bad employee.
Here's a better one for you. What if there are TA or PATH or LIRR or Metro-North employees that are part of a terrorist cell?
My two cents:
Obviously you don't want to let your guard down. Too much can go wrong, especially in places one would not expect and in ways one would not expect (that's what happened on 9/11/01.) There should be better and more efficient security procedures at all the senstive areas such as train stations, bus stations, docks, landmarks, and in other key areas out of public view. There should be better intelligence procedures, so that the breakdowns now widely acknowledged to have made 9/11/01 possible are minimized or eliminated. There are a lot of states, especially in western and eastern Africa, and Indonesia, that would do well to strengthen their security procedures.
That being said, I think that the episode of this past week is a good example of when things go overboard. People making a run on duct tape and plastic covering, congresspeope and other government officials telling people to remain clam while on the side telling their own relatives to avoid riding subways and the like, media outlets making prognosticating day and night when and where the terrorist attacks will come and how bad they will be, and for what? A "source" telling government officials that as soon as the recent hajj to Mecca ends many Muslims will come back radicalized and looking to blow up key landmarks in response to the coming war? Not to sound scarcastic, but an announcement of "the Muslims are coming, head for the hills!" would have sufficed.
One more thing:
That last statement was to show how the logic was a bit questionable. My feeling is that yes, quite a lot of Muslims are angry right now so as to wish the worst on people. But to think that they would come back from a religious pilgrimmage looking to commit mass murder? While that has to be taken into account, it does sound a bit extreme.
We tend to see the fundimenalist muslims as doing things for symbolic meaning as much as out of pure hatred. I am not an expert on muslims, on terrorists or muslim terrorists but I think that they are smarter than that. My belief is that they continually get our leaders and media to 'cry wolf' frequently. They'll just wait until the day we decide to ignor the call.
I'm dismayed & amazed at the number of times I can enter non-public areas of the NYCT and not be challenged. I'm also amazed at how lax some employees & customers are. Last night, I observed a male, without knocking, open the cab door and enter the cab of an express train (I won't mention which one here). Not one person in that car seemed alarmed enough to question the actions. Those are the same people that are buying bottled water and duct tape. One of them should have screamed bloody murder.
I don't believe that an attack is coming today or tomorrow. I also don't bellieve that the gov't can completely protect us. We need to be vigilant. We need to not let things simply pass. Most of all, we need to forget about duct tape or mylar sheeting and just get on with our lives.
And what KIND of religion teaches people to HATE? Oh yeah, we've got a few of those HERE. :(
The type of catastrophic actions that we saw on 9/11 marked a new era in terrorism. Massive destruction and massive body counts. Of course, preceding 9/11, we had warnings. Bombings of US interests in Africa, using a small boat to hit the USS Cole, etc. These all should have given us some warning that the face of international terrorism was changing.
Major terrorism has been around for decades. 9/11 was very costly, of course, but it differed from prior attacks mainly because of its target - the United States. That made it far worse, from an American point of view, than things happening overseas.
Terrorism quiz: what group developed the concept of the suicide bomber? Hint - their heads are towel-free.
Absolutely, I agree ... the ONLY thing I have a problem with is our "leadership" standing there in front of the blue curtain telling people to go and buy all the duct tape they can hoard. That WAS pretty dumb. Getting the easily impressionable (the duct tape angle PROVED it) all worked up when there's nothing they can do is silly. THAT was the only point I was trying to make, the foolishness of how it is handled with respect to the PUBLIC. I prefer my media circuses with popcorn and cotton candy, thank ya. :)
West 11th Street - that was Jane Alpert who rearranged that building, I'd interviewed her on BAI prior to her bad batch of cookies and she was one hateful, twisted soul with a vengeance. When I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to go downtown because of George Mateski, that happy former Con Ed guy, and there were numerous bombings around the city (including the earlier factions of FALN) ... in all the years I lived in the city, I got beaten up 10 times, mugged twice and shot once. Never did get blowed up, think I'll pass on that one.
But absolutely, the police, emergency workers and others who are in a POSITION to know what to do and what to look for should be told, trained and assisted in every way possible. After the duct tape episode though, I'm strongly inclined to believe that the RESPONSIBLE means of providing an alert is a little blurb, "there will be more police today owing to possible reports of activity." Telling New Yorkers to avoid the subway (turns out the "alert" was yet another hoax, so I'm told) and to tape themselves into their bathrooms and asphyxiate themselves just doesn't make sense absent "what to DO" ...
See? We're acutally on the same side. :)
>>> The type of catastrophic actions that we saw on 9/11 marked a new era in terrorism. <<<
Not really, since the same target was attacked in 1993, but less successfully, and Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, plus overseas truck bombings of tall buildings show similar attacks. The WTC attack was more successful than those who planned it imagined it would be. The real difference is that for the first time, through see it now TV Americans realized that they too were vulnerable to the same type of violence as people in the rest of the world. This was exacerbated by proclamations that we are at "war" with terrorism, giving the terrorists much more stature than they deserved in the eyes of many Americans. This has caused too many Americans to lose confidence in their ability to maintain a generally open society, and to look for simple answers (get Osama Bin Laden, get Saddam Hussein) to complicated problems.
Tom
>>> The type of catastrophic actions that we saw on 9/11 marked a new era in terrorism. <<<
Not really, since the same target was attacked in 1993, but less successfully, and Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, plus overseas truck bombings of tall buildings show similar attacks.
I'd say that using a jet aircraft, loaded with passengers as a tactical weapon marked a new era in terrorism! Wouldn't you?
I'd say that using a jet aircraft, loaded with passengers as a tactical weapon marked a new era in terrorism! Wouldn't you?
A very similar idea came exremely close to succeeding at Memphis in 1994, the sole difference being that it was a cargo plane.
They also tried to hijack an Air France jet and fly it into the Eiffel Tower, but the French police caught on in time to stop it.
Ramzi Yusef, mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing planned to crash a plane into the CIA headquarters in 1995.
This was exacerbated by proclamations that we are at "war" with terrorism, giving the terrorists much more stature than they deserved in the eyes of many Americans.
Interesting point ... it could well be that the "America at War" theme was overdone. After all, wars involve organized nations, so using the war pitch made it seem like al-Qaeda was a quasi-nation group. Maybe casting the whole thing as a large-scale criminal investigation, with al-Qaeda as a criminal gang, would've made more sense.
Certainly Shrub standing up there in the days following and using the word "CRUSADE" didn't help garner support among other Muslim countries facing the same gang of thugs either. That had to be among the worst possible choices of words imaginable. Almost as bad, "They tried to kill my daddy" in attempting to garner support for marching into Iraq. We might have actually had some support for our "cause" were it not for the continuing gaffs. :(
>>> Maybe casting the whole thing as a large-scale criminal investigation, with al-Qaeda as a criminal gang, would've made more sense. <<<
But there goes the rationale for holding people without charging any crime or allowing them to see attorneys, or ignoring huge and growing budget deficits.
Tom
[The Police Department has also posted officers at the entrances to each of the 16 underwater subway tunnels.]
Rudy Giuliani must be cringing at the thought of INCREASED subway policing. He merged the Transit P.D. into NYPD not just to put cops back on the street (which the city controls) but primarily to put crime back in the subway (which the city does not control).
Story Here
Peace,
ANDEE
It happens every once in a while at this depot (at a farebox, at least that's what the custome claims.
P.S. The Cubic system doesn't like the cold very much, designed in Tenn, maybe they should have done more field testing in Alaska ?
>>designed in Tenn<< I thought they were in Chula Vista (greater San Diego chuckle) They are also the makers of many of BART's machines. The good news they print out value remaining, the bad news its often illegible--no ink, over prints the previous etc. Oh yes and the mag stripes just fail and your multiride ticket becomes void, grump. Just the other evening a "brand new" (installed in December) 3rd generation exit gate was refusing exit on a valid ticket. The gate two to the right no problem.
Right, headquarters is in San Diego, but the plant is at Tullahome.
Here in NYC, when you go thru the Turnstile it doesn't even say thank you, let alone telling you what the balance is. So, folks get a nice suprise the next time they try & use their MC :-(
There are reports that show you that the farebox/turnstile "hiccuped", at least that's what I call it, because it seems to throw a fit for one customer, then is just fine for the rest.
I thought when people swipe their pay-per-ride metrocards thru the turnstile, it said how much balance remained.
I think the problem (in part) is people do not know how to swipe their card. They swipe their cards crooked and the turnstile does not read the card correctly. Then they try to swipe again and their card was used twice or the message is "JUST USED".
I think anothe [r part of the problem is that sometimes the turnstiles are dirty. They are cleaned every 8 hours by the releiving agent. But in some places they get dirty very quickly.
You know, you are right. It does tell you what the balance is.
Sorry about that, I don't use the turnstiles that much.
Thurston,
It does show you the remaining balance.
Peace,
ANDEE
WMATA's fare gates do a good job of printing remaining balances. It's legible >99% of the time. I always ride Metrorail when visiting DC and in a half-dozen trips, I never had a problem.
Geez ... Joe Bruno needs a new pair of shoes ... call it "debt reduction" ...
(Hey, I've been good lately, gimme a break.)
Well so far, we should be thankful, it has occured with the Mrs. at
booth R238, 42nd Street, Grand Central. The elevator that's another
post. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I usually try to divest from political rhetoric that appears on this
board. But since someone, who is TA employed started a tread about
deadend jobs. Be thankful your receiving an increase of sorts.
Where's the funding coming from? The backs of your fellow state employees.
Take from the right to pay the left or whatever!!!
Here's a copy of a memorandum TO: All Salaried Employees issued by
a State Authority February 13, 2003.
^^^"The September 11th terrorist attacks--combined with a national
recesion far more severe than expected--have had a devastating financial impact on New York State. As a result, New York is facing an historic buget crises with an estimated $11.5 billion shortfall.
The Executive, Legislature, and interest groups throughout the state
are looking to the STATE's PUBLIC AUTHORITIES for
unprecedented financial ASSISTANCE. For example, New York Power Authority, BatteryPark City Authority and the Port Authority have already volunteered significant contributions to the 2003-2004 Executive Budget proposal to help save this crisis.
The Executive Budget proposes to cut $1 billion from State agency
operations, programs and projects that are being streamlined or eliminated to achieve savings, including new workforce reductions.
Additionally, all state entities are expected to tightly restrict
travel outside of New York and POSTPONE SCHEDULED PAY INCREASES for
salaried staff among other measures.
At least until the state's current budget crisis is resolved, we believe it is prudent for us to POSTPONE SCHEDULED 2003 PAY ADJUSTMENTS for salaried employees.
We are all being called upon to meet a very real financial emergency. Each of your individual contributions and all of our collective efforts are needed to help resolve this crisis."^^^
Well there you have it, the way it is. Also consider the fact that
the salaried employess at this Authority, may be State Employees,
but are NOT CIVIL SERVICE.
I'm not going to add any futher elecution, Thanks for reading.
:-( Sparky
anyone know what's with the L g.o. this weekend (as in what work is going on in the tunnel btw. brooklyn and manhattan)?
i heard a very silly rumor that there is no work to be done - they just want to block potiental protesters from willyburg from getting into town (Try not to laugh too hard at that one!). i sympathize with the demonstrators, but i'd rather deal in facts... so if you got them, drop ehm here.
Doh - sorry bout' the repost. left the comp on last night & hit the damn refresh button...)
That a bunch of crap. The G.O. work have to do with the CBTC intalation. They are putting in the Relay equement for it. You can't run trains and do this at the same time. They are doing two section within Manhatten one in the River Tube to Third Ave on Q1 track and the out from 14st-Union Sq into 8th Ave on Q2 track. The L is running in three scetion becouse of this G.O. This work have also been going on during this passed week. Trust me on this one I have five trips both Saturday and Sunday from Rackaway to Bedford ave.
Robert
Could you translate that into northbound-southbound terms? (I don't know which is Q1 and which is Q2.)
Q1 is toward Rockaway Parkway and Q2 is toward 8 Av.
I know this is "super" old news but...
Traveling Manhattan bound on the "Q" over the Manhattan Bridge you come to Canal St. Right after, the train curves to the right but tunnel continues straight.
Where on this site is info about this? I can't find where it is anymore. I tried searching the site and can't locate it. I remember reading about it but now can't seem to find it cause I wanna research it more.
Thanx all...
Danny
The North Side of the Manhattan Bridge was to stop at the (currently unused) Canal Street bridge line platform, and then proceed crosstown on Canal Street to the Hudson River.
See Here.
Elias
The North Side of the Manhattan Bridge was to stop at the (currently unused) Canal Street bridge line platform, and then proceed crosstown on Canal Street to the Hudson River.
See Here.
Elias
Since that was written, it is the south side that comes into the platform mentioned, and it is used now once again for the (Q) and (W) services.
It was *supposed* to continue to the Hudson River, but never did so, that stup ends right there, I think you can see almost all there is to see of it.
Yeah...that's what I thought. Thanx for the info.
Is there anywhere that has more info about this tunnel? Like what was built and never used?
Everyone, we are running out of lines with the railfan window. So I propose in either April, May, or June. Subtalkers gather from around the world, for 1 weekend called "RailFan Weekend Mayham" Where Subtalkers will just ride the subways with lines that still have trains that have the railfan window. Only those subway lines, it might be alot of subway lines and it might take some time getting from one line to another thats why I want the event to cover 2 days. If the group is too big we can break up in to 2 smaller groups that can experience the fun. So anyone up for it?
If we only had prize money for this:
How about a weekend long race. Two to three groups start out at the same station and MUST travel ALL 467 subway stations in the system at least once. The train MUST stop in the station or if shuttle buses replace train service, use the local bus FIRST then the express bus to double back if needed. As long as you made that stop on a local station, you can always come back on the express train if you have to. You can even exit the station and reenter at another station, or use a NTCT or private bus to travel to another subway station you did not cover.
Anyone up to the challenge? If not, then I will do it with someone like Flatbush41 in tow and we will do it just for fun, then we will do the longest mini-report after we catch up on some sleep, because I will be needing it after this.
Why not have a whole subway racing Olympics? You're event might be copared to the marathon, with shorter races as well between different stations. The racers would be allowed to choose different routes between the start and finish.
Mark
What a way to celebrate the 100 anniversary of the opening of the first leg of the Interborough Rapid Transit.
That sounds like fun,Do employees get to Enter.I think I have a partner who can do the whole system in under 12 hours.
I think I have a partner who can do the whole system in under 12 hours.
I'd like to see that.
---Brian
Lets see if RushHour can do this 12 hour stint on a Sunday! LOL
AH ... he didn't tell you the SECRET ... OK ... here's the deal. You have keys, you have handles and you have 90 pounds. You go NUTS when you puch up a route. You TAKE it. As long as the tower no longer has marker lights on the bulkhead, they can't tell WHAT you are, just punch, take the lineup and you diverge at will.
HINT ... close the crew door, leave the geese where you leave them if switching divisions. Do NOT take an R32 over the concourse bypass trying to pawn yourself off as a #4. Climb OVER the fence and charge up GENUINE A division equipment. TEN-HUT! :)
It can be done in 12 hours. I read it on subtalk. And before ANYBODY thinks I'm blaspheming Subtalk, *TRY* to find a post from Selkirko (NY POSTspeak) on straphangers. Moo.
Impossible. The record, set in the 70's I think, was over 24 hours.
Oh yeah, if you want it to be even MORE challenging, the use of buses are NOT allowed and you must stay within the subway system. Hmm, that would be quite a task riding the ENTIRE system. I will consider doing that one day but I don't know when. Boy if we were to ever do this, it would probably take about 4-6 posts to report the entire thing. Gotta stock up on the food and drinks alright ;-) [to have energy]
Oh BTW, Kool-D the A train is not running a shuttle bus this weekend, its a shuttle train from Rockaway Blvd to Far Rockaway tomorrow only from 8am-4pm. But I'm still gonna ride the 3 section L GO, the Broadway GO and the 2/5 shuttle bus so that would be a field trip alright; weather permitting.
Damm, you runied the shortcuts I wanted to use, I will not tell my secrets here like that. Remember as long as you rode on the segement of the line, why double back when you can take a decent bus somewhere else. Start and Finish is where else? OUR PLAZA!!!
My field trip will be Sunday Afternoon, shooting for around 2 PM if I don't have anything else on the calendar. Holla back if you want to do this on your own or as the Brighton Brothers!!! LOL!!
Maybe I willl try something else different that day, such as the shuttle bus/B68 back and forth to Stillwell and report there the progress.
Who knows, maybe I'll decide to ride the GO's BOTH Saturday & Sunday so maybe we could ride as the Brighton brothers on Sunday LOL as long as plans don't change and the weather is not inclement.
Hopefully it's not too cold on Sunday, I'm a baseball, warm weather fan. Just email me directly and I will respond ASAP.
BTW: Don't forget we have to bring some food so that we can feed Fred's pets between Court St and Whitehall Street stations. He has a LOT of furry pets in that tunnel!!!!
Ok, I'm going to put my e-mail address right now, I think that would be better so copy it down and I'll respond to your e-mail alright.
Hmm, not so sure I could feed Fred's pets down at the rathole :-( BUT signals could be sent to the huge cat rats to go down there and eat them heehee. Ahh what the hell, I'll get some solid food to feed em :-P.
Boy are we sooooooooo mean to our Californian buddy!!! Hope the D-Type Triplex fan trip comes real soon in the spring or summer
LOL, we want better for the Sea Beach, it really doesn't belong in the rathole and he knows us Brighton men [myself, you, Brighton Exp Bob, etc] are just teasing him ;-). He even gets a few jokes on our Brighton sometimes but the ridership shows that putting the Brighton via tunnel wouldn't make much sense.
Oh, if we meet up on Sunday, I'll be at Newkirk by 1:30-1:50pm and to identify me I'll be wearing a blck North Face, a all black LA Dodgers hat and I'll be sitting by the Manhattan bound side of the mezzanine. I hope you copied down my e-mail address b/c I'm about to take it off.
Why wait until April? The Redbirds on the 4 and 5 will all be gone by then, and the 3 will have fewer R-62A singles. If you want a railfan window on the IRT, now's your chance.
Right, take a different route home one night & invite some of your friends here to join you, just for the fun of it.
The problem is that I never plan Redbird trips these days. If I see one, I jump on, even if I actually need to go the other way (unless I'm in a hurry, of course). Sometimes I'll wander onto the Lex platform just in case.
Sometimes I'm forced to choose. One afternoon in October, I was waiting on the express platform at Atlantic for the one then-remaining R-29 set on the 5. When an R-33 set pulled up on the 2, I grabbed it instead, figuring I could catch the 5 some other day. I rode up to the Bronx and back down, and on the way back I saw the R-29 set going up north. Turns out that was its last day in service and probably its last run. Oh well!
As Greenberger said, the days of the Redbirds on the mainline IRT is numbered so NOW is the chance to railfan; the days of R42's on the L is also numbered so hurry up and RF NOW! You'll still have RF opportunities on the A,C,E,J/Z,M,N,Q exp,R,W[weekends],3[any car besides a car w/the last digit being a 1,5,6 & 0] and 7; on the L,4 & 5 the days of a true RF window is numbered. I think your idea is good though.
When I visit NYC in mid-March, will there be any Redbirds still running on Lexington Ave? And will there be any R42s on the L? If there are still Redbirds on Lex Ave do they run to fixed schedules or is it a case of pot luck?
Thankyou
Don't forget to factor in the amount of time spent WAITING
FOR A RFWINDOW consist to come around in the rotation...
Took me 35 mins. today just waiting for a Woodlawn Redbird
consist to come back around in the rotation.... 35 mins may not
be much but it sure is when you're out in this temp (even
underground platforms get breezes).
A while back MARTA in Atlanta had to install a X crossover+switches and signals south of the Dunwoody station. If I remember correctly service was disrupted for several weeks but the job was done ahead of schedule. Question: In NYC how long would something like this take? Could it be done over a weekend?
Depending on the urgency, it would take anywhere from 4-6 weekend basic G.O's. If extremely urgent (never the case) and they shut down the entire line, it can be done in 2 to 3 weekends.
A while back MARTA in Atlanta had to install a X crossover+switches and signals south of the Dunwoody station. If I remember correctly service was disrupted for several weeks but the job was done ahead of schedule. Question: In NYC how long would something like this take?
If everything goes smoothly, oh, I'd guess five to seven years.
It looks like they are installing a new cut north of 57th street station on the N/W.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how long they've been working on it .
That's not new - it's an old one that is being replaced.
IIRC, it took about 3 weeks and it was scheduled for 4 or 5 weeks. They completely shut down the line between Medical Center and Dunwoody (this was before the Springs extension) and had susbtitute bus service between those two stations.
I remember a while back in 2000 when the E train was running to Euclid Av all times except nights [C service was knocked out completely] and that was for switch replacement at WTC; took about 1 1/2 months and was finished ahead of schedule. Nope if it was done every weekend as a GO, it would take about 4-6 weekends to complete.
Remember sometime in 1987-88, no skip-stop service on the D/Q lines, all service operated as the D line and used R32 equipment? That lasted for abouth two weeks, maybe longer.
Nope, I was a little kid at that time so I don't really know about that LOL :-P.
The switch replacement at WTC was scheduled to take 1 month. It took 2 weeks.
I imagine that with a subway type system it takes slightly longer due to third rails, the amount of traffic, etc.
I live next to the Metrolink/Amtrak San Diego line...which is double tracked in my city. Last weekend, they replaced two switches, and half a mile of the #2 (southbound) track. Not just the rails....but they removed the ballast, and everything else down to the subroadbed. It was all done in one weekend. (The #2 track is now level, the #1 track has a sag in the middle of the stretch...)
Replacement of the #1 track in the same area (but no switches) is being done this weekend. Seems that the subroadbed was weak, and they dug out the track, ballast, went about two feet below the bottom of the ballast and then brought in new material and levelled it out with road rollers, just like a highway project, then laid all new concrete ties and rail.
During the week, we've got about 64 Metrolink, 20 Amtrak, and half a dozen BNSF freights through each day; on the weekends, no Metrolink but the same amount of Amtrak and BNSF freight.
If you mean a new switch and signals in a place where they did not exist previously, it would take quite some time. Figure:
Two weekends to chip out concrete in the area,
Two weekends to install prefabed switches,
minimum one weekend to physically install new home signals,
minimum one weekend to run new cable between signals and tower,
minimum two weekends to wire tower for new signals,
one weekend for new concrete pour,
one weekend for testing
Depends. Replacing or upgrading an existing switch would be easy. Putting one in a totally new area requires more time. It took a year to install the X crossover outside Queens Blvd. before service east of here was ended in '77.
IIRC they had to install steel girders where the center track would have been. I wonder why they just didn't install a center platform at Queens Blvd. while they were at it. I didn't ride on the Jamaica line beyond 121st St. for 21 years, from 1969 until 1990.
That would have necessated a connecting platform to the existing side platforms, probably at the northern end. Remember, the tracks east of Queens Blvd. going all the way to Sutphin Blvd. were retained (and survived until 1991) and used for layups. This would have been impossible with a temporary center platform.
Also, there was no structure in the middle to support one. Installing one would be too expensive for a station set to be closed in 7 years anyway.
Here's an answer for you: eight to twelve years and $20 million by the normal process. Or one year and less money in an emergency.
The normal process works like this. First it would have to get on the list of projects to get in the next five year capital plan, a multi-step process in itself with approval by the state legislature and the FTA. All the projects are competing with each other, both systemwide and within signals (a new interlocking would be a signal job). I've been to a couple of meetings on this subject. Lots of stuff the Dept. of Subways would like to have doesn't make the list. Some stuff misses one capital program, but makes the next five years later. Of course, if a line is having its signals redone anyway you skip this step.
Next it would have to go through "master plan" and "design." That would take about three years. Remember, all the signal lines and relationships in a huge area would have to be replanned and reprogrammed around the interlocking. That takes time and money. Again, if you are putting in the new interlocking while the whole line is being redone, there is no extra time here.
Then it is three years for "construction," of which only 18 months might be construction. You have more detailed surveys for field conditions, you tweak the design, ordering materials, test them, and finally installation. For intallation, you have to compete for scarce G.O.s, flaggers, work trains. A new interlocking means a shutdown on two tracks, and those aren't easy to get or popular with the pubic, especially on a two-track line (see L G.O.). And there are all the days you can't get G.O.s, like the Flushing Line when the Mets are in town or the U.S. Open is there.
As for money, the track work will be done by the track department, which has a budget, the flaggers and work train operators and bus operators (for shutdown) have a budget, the engineers and inspectors from different departments have budgets, etc. Then, of course, there is the conractor to install all the signals.
That's the normal process. How about an emergency? If all other projects are thrown out the window, if money is available immediately, if absolute prioritiy is given for access to TA staff, workers, G.O.s, if you don't worry about interrupting service, etc. then everything can be done very fast and significantly cheaper. Like the 1/9. The reality is that it is only one year of work, but given everything else that goes on that one year is spread out over eight to twelve years.
Just comparing between agencies, everything in government works that way. You can't fast track everything, or the whole system breaks down and you end up with a mess. But you could fast track any one thing if there is consensus to eliminate the bullshit combined with enough focus to prevent the problems the bullshit is designed to prevent.
Thanks. That explains why they didn't put in an crossover north of Grand St. so that the B and D could have run to Grand while the north side of the bridge is closed.
Indeed. And the closer they got to the bridge's reopening, the less sense it made to put effort in that direction.
Only one year to go...
SEPTA recently installed a switch west of 40th Street on the Market-Frankford El. it was part of a total Market Street El shutdown on weekends that happened over the better part of 2002.
I love collecting subway maps. I have over 400 from the last 25 years alone. I want now maps, subway, bus, and trolly lines, from around the world. I am first asking if any london bus, subway fans are willing to send me a London Underground map. If you can it would greatly be appreciated. Or if anyone else around the world can. Please e-mail me, with the city and what map you can send to me. Even other major U.S. cities would be great.
Are you planning to reciprocate in any way, shape or form or are you expecting to just get maps and not send anything back.
I will send NYC bus and subway maps, or send them the money for the cost of the map or shipping.
Christopher,
I live near Chicago, and there is an excellent RTA map that shows all the METRA commuter lines and CTA L routes. I will also be in Atlanta next weekend, and can see if MARTA railmaps are available. E-mail me if you are interested.
Jay
Actually, you can get a MARTA map by e-mailing them. Here's their website: http://www.itsmarta.com/index1.asp.
Mark
Christopher,
Do you also collect commuter railroad timetables? If so, I can also send you some METRA schedules.
Transport for London will send Underground Maps, Bus Maps and Info anywhere in the world. by e-mail request.
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk
Chris,
I have some stuff for you, send along an address in email.
-Dave
I am using Adobe Illustrator to make my Second Avenue Map, with stops and transfers. Does anyone know how to make a map, so that I can make one for my presenation? All help would be appreciated.
I have tried using Photoshop for mapmaking and found it too cumbersome.
I have also tried Microsoft Visio, which IMHO works betters.
Adobe Photoshop is a large powerful program, but once you learn its ins and outs, it works very well for making subway maps. I've used it for that quite a bit. It takes some experience, though.
Mark
I use Photoshop for my maps as well, however it should be noted that only higher versions have the crucial (for mapmaking at least) ability to edit / reformat text after you type it.
OOPs... you wrote Illustrator, not Photoshop. I havent tried that.
I used Macromedia Freehand 10 to draw maps, like this one. It's very easy to use and it makes any lines you draw by hand smooth automatically.
That's really impressive. :) Have you been able to do a map of NYC Subways yet? Not to be demanding, but you'd probably do a great job! Do me a favor, if you do make one, make sure the lines are straight and smooth. The MTA's choice to make the map geographically 'accurate' was really unfortunate. It's too bulky.
Thanks! I would like to draw NYCT one day, but it would take too long! Drawing the routes are easy, but it's typing the station names that take forever. Maybe one day. If were were to do it, I would try to make to geographically correct. My map above is like that, except for some stretching to make space for station names. That's how I'd do it with NYC. It certianly wouldn't look too crowded like the offical map.
Drawing the routes are easy, but it's typing the station names that take forever.
I make one station name, then cut and paste the rest of them, so that the fonts and sizes are correct. Then I just go down the line corecting the names. I can even alingn them up quickly.
The way my program works, the colored station dots are pasted at the same time as the station name, so that works out well too.
Elias
I can't tell you with Illustrator, but I believe that the base issue is the same as with Photoshop--you will have to work with paths. Once you learn how to manipulate paths, Photoshop is wonderful for maps.
But the point is, if you're not experienced with PS or Illustrator, map making is probably not something you can learn ad hoc--certainly not with a few pointers on SubTalk. Someone suggested Visio--that's a good choice if you don't want to deal with a steep learning curve.
I use Serif's Draw Plus... I forget what version I am on...
the big difference between that and Ilustrator is about $400.00!
The big thing o remember is that you are manipulating code.
Your line has nodes on it that may be moved and edited.
You may also have layers, so your base map is the base layer, and each line can be on an additional layer, this way you don't shmoo everything up just because you made a mistake on one layer.
The only way to learn it is to make subway maaps on it. Throw out the first five or six that you make, after that you should have the idea.
Elias
Even out here we are hearing rumors that the city decided to close the Holland Tunnel, or was at least thinking of doing so. Is there anything to that? What of the Lincoln and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels? It sounds like New York is getting ready for a siege. What gives?
Just looked out the window, the Holland is open in both directions.
Fox News. Check your bedsheets, if they're DRY - shame on you. :)
No no ..."Shame on You" is back on WCBS-TV with Howard Diaz :)
--Mark
What are they WEARING? Tena's or Depends? :)
So you'll believe that the tunnel is closed becaues you heard it on the TV opposed to an eyewitness who can see the damn thing?
I work in the building across the street from David and I can attest to his observation that the Holland Tunnel is open and operating.
No, no, no, no ... I heard it on Subtalk. :)
But the story just SMACKS of Fozzybear Nooze. Living upstate, can't see, I'm busy watching the UN telling the US to ... ummm ... wouldn't be prudent. But I have no doubts as to the world continuing to rotate about its axis of evil, and therefore cannot see the tunnel, but no surprise there either. After all, the whole POINT of terrorism is to generate what we've been seeing FAR too much of lately. :(
David,
You gotta move to the otherside of the building, where the better view is. But then you might never leave the house.
Rich
Actually my desk is on the northeast corner of the building but even from the windows on the north side I can still see the tunnel. The river & city views are much better than what we had at 95 Wall St. (canyon view if you know what I mean)
The only thing that is true is that trucks from Brooklyn or Queens looking to use the Willie B to get to Manhatan are being diverted to the Manhattan Bridge. Checkpoints set up there don't cause big backups on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.
--Mark
The Brooklyn Battery was closed for about a hour yesterday b/c of a bomb threat, turned out to be medical waste [as reported]. More police presence lately in subways & buses and in the streets too.
The Brooklyn Battery was closed for about a hour yesterday b/c of a bomb threat, turned out to be medical waste
Considering what "medical waste" can be, I'd almost prefer a bomb.
Yeah, I wonder what they meant by "medical waste".
hurricane express with john wayne...made in the ealy to mid thirties..very corny, but some good vintage loco scenes..wreck scenes are all staged with models..anyone else see this?
Did you know that movie was originally a 12 chapter serial made by Mascot Pictures in 1932? That means it was shown in theatres a chapter at a time for 12 weeks, each chapter ending with a cliffhanger. At some later date it was cut down into a feature film. The original 12 chapter version should still be available on videotape.
thats interesting...not exactly one of my top railroad flick picks, but i thought it was worth a mention..wayne had to be about 19 at the time.
>>> wayne had to be about 19 at the time. <<<
Would you believe 25? :-)
Tom
the dukes age was a wild guess..but he looked very young in this flick
Karl, I've never seen the serial version on videotape, but I do have the 75-minute feature version, obtained about 15 years ago. A quick web search shows the feature version is still available, both on VHS and on a DVD (with another John Wayne film, Star Packer or something like that) but not the serial version... several of the descriptions refer to it as a 12-chapter serial but from the length you can tell it's not, the serial would be about 120 minutes and the feature is variously advertised between 70 and 80 minutes. Amazon has the DVD for only $4.95!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
Those older serials had much longer chapters than the later ones, I'm thinking that it might be approaching 180 minutes. I had the entire serial at one time but sold it because it was an early release from Video Classics, recorded EP mode, and very poor quality. I always meant to get a better copy but never did.
IIRC Wayne is actually an airplane pilot, and it's his father who is the railroad engineer. It had some great railroad scenes, but the storyline bordered on the ridiculous.
Two of the well known traditional bad guys were also in the serial. Charles King and Glenn Strange. Strange many years later was the bartender on "Gunsmoke".
>>> the serial would be about 120 minutes and the feature is variously advertised between 70 and 80 minutes <<<
The serial was 229 minutes, about 19 minutes per episode. Don't forget each episode of the serial would have an introduction including the cast of characters and a recap of what went on before that episode, a recap of the cliff hanger from the previous episode and the revelation of how the heros avoided certain death, and at the end of each episode an added hook to see the next episode.
In 1966, I went to a midnight showing of all 15 episodes of the 1943 serial "The Batman" which originally ran 260 minutes. By the fourth episode the audience was hissing and groaning at the introductory recaps. Thankfully by the sixth episode, they edited those out, starting each new episode with resolution of the previous episode's cliffhanger. It still ran so long that the biggest cheer of the whole night was when the screen announced that the final episode was starting.
Tom
Thanks for the update, Tom... I had no idea it ran that long. Never went to the movies much as a youngster; when we were in the City we went to Broadway shows, which were a lot more accomodating of a kid in a wheelchair than the movie palaces. Besides, I didn't have time... spent it all in physical therapy learning to walk again after the accident.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does the city have plans to enclose the subway stations like they are doing in London,to keep the passengers safe on the stations?
Do you mean platform doors (such as in Singapore)? It was considered a while back, then rejected as (1) too expensive and (2) logistically impractical given how the different rolling stock would line up due to car length, changes in train length, and the vagueries of manual operation.
Does the city have plans to enclose the subway stations like they are doing in London,to keep the passengers safe on the stations?
Do you mean platform doors? That would be very difficult in New York given the mix of equipment types.
Well on the discovery channel a few weeks ago they showed the new Londen subway line that has a totaly glass enclosed platform as the train comes to a stop the platform doors open with the train doors,creating a safety method for the riders,i thought that the N.Y.C.transit was looking into thisas i knew this would never fly in N.Y.but i was just wondering if this has come up again.....thanks.
It's been mentioned and might work on the IRT lines, where all the cars are 51 feet long and the center doors are all in the exact same spot. The question would be how well the R-62 and R-142 doors matched up at the ends of the cars, and how the R-142/142A cars that have cabs would line up with the doors, since they're slightly different in those cars than in the ones without cabs.
That's still easier than figuring out the B Division, where the R-32 and R-38 cars would probably match up with the R-40/42s and the doors on the R-44/46/68s would match up, but the two types of car wouldn't come close to lining up with each other (and the R-143s may not fully match up with either of them, at least on the 'B' cars).
Don't get the wrong idea about London. It's not like they've retrofitted the entire system with platform doors. They have 8 underground stations with the platform doors on the Jubilee line, built new in the past few years. The line is served by trains of fixed length all with the same rolling stock. The platform doors were planned with the car door spacing in mind. Note that the new surface-level stations of the Jubilee line extension DID NOT get platform doors nor did they retrofit any of the old Jubilee line stations.
Paris Metro line 14 has platform doors too but again this line is newly built in the past few years with uniform rolling stock.
I think the idea is, build them on new systems where possible. Retrofitting is nearly impossible. Think of all the variables:
- train length
- car length
- car door number
- car door spacing
- platform curvature
- available space to install
- London specifically has a car height to platform height problem too
and then try to figure out how to overcome these in NYC...
Full-train-length openings. Total barricade surface the same, but all barricades would fold back to make 10-12 foot wide openings, continuous the length of the platform. Lightweight polycarbonate surfaces can be made to move as easily as they can be mounted immobile.
Crazier things have happened.
Would this be similar to the Newark Airport monorail stations?
Or AirTrain, perhaps?
"Does the city have plans to enclose the subway stations like they are doing in London,to keep the passengers safe on the stations?"
76th St. is enclosed...........permanently !
Bill "Newkirk"
And the Far Rockaway train pulls into 76th street every five minutes. The only problem is, they have the TA Escalator Department working on the platform doors.
So as to divert our attention to the false Holland Tunnel tunnel closing report, I noted some corrections needed, as always, thanks Dave for such a wonderful site, and Joe's pictures too!
img.3008.jpg-The R16 is at 34th st/BMT, not 8th Ave IND
img.4707.jpg-The Trevor Logan photo of the R32 "V" train was taken at Lexington/53rd st station.
img.4762.jpg-This is not the Franklin Shuttle, the R32 probably was used for trackwork being performed before the deferred maintenance era. as a shuttle between Atlantic and Prospect Park. It is at the Coney Island bound track going in the opposite direction.
img.4776.jpg AND img.4968.jpg-Both pictures were taken at 57th st/7th Ave, NOT the newer 57th/6th ave station.
img.4898.jpg-Caption should be 14th st/6th ave, NOT 14th st/8th ave (6th Ave has green tiles, 8th Ave has yellow tiles)
img.4488.jpg-The R17 is at 50th st/6th Ave IND, NOT 50th st/West End Line.
img.4580.jpg-This picture was taken at Court St/BMT station, not Whitehall. Too bad we don't see any of Fred's pets in between these stations.
Hey, look at that! My submissions are finally posted. And with captions, too!
Except they're all dated 5/2001. That's surely not correct.
"Except they're all dated 5/2001. That's surely not correct."
HA HA an R16 STILL in revenue service after nearly 50 years!!!!
No, no, I mean that all of my photos are dated 5/2001 even though most are more recent. I don't have any shots of R-16's in service, at least not to my knowledge.
Just joking with you, that's all.
For your comment on img4488.jpg, R17's were IRT cars; if its the IND in this case, you might mean a R10 or R16.
It had to be an R16 for the IND/BMT, it has a circle railfan window, not square or rectangular like most railfan windows.
Yup, you meant the R16. HOWEVER there was one or 2 R10's that had the round RF window as a modification, 3047 and I think 3081.
Thanks, all these updates are done.
Sometimes when I get a huge batch of photos from Joe T it is easy to mistake the stations, e.g. his caption says "14th St" and I have to get that to be the RIGHT 14th St.
And as for the photos with the wrong dates of Dave Greenbergers (which I corrected a couple of weeks ago) a word to potential contributors is always to send me a txt file along with your images (zipped up) with filename, date, caption, etc. The harder it is for me to assemble the information means it will take longer for the submission to appear and when it does there's likely to be omissions and errors in the caption data.
Well, while we're at it, this photo is in the JMZ Canal Street station section. I have no idea where it is, but I know it's not Canal Street JMZ.
So where is it?
Canal St, bridge platform, extreme eastern end.
Fixed..
Yep, you are right. The curved ceiling threw me. I guess that must have been a platform extension.
I couldn't figure out where it was, but I knew it wasn't Nassau's Canal.
The curved ceiling is where the Nassau line passes overhead.
The platforms narrow at that end, the tracks veer apart around a curtain wall, which was shown in that picture.
That makes sense. They probably had to tunnel under the Nassau line when they built the bridge line, as opposed to the cut and cover construction on the rest of the station.
The provision for the bridge line to pass under Canal St. on the Nassau line was put in place when the Nassau line was built.
I think I spotted an error in NYCT's latest MetroCard ad.
On the downtown 3 this morning, I saw a MetroCard poster ad touting the MetroCard machine's ability to accept debit cards to keep cards filled. There was a caricature on the poster ad showing a MetroCard turnstile showing the words "Insufficient Funds."
Doesn't the machine state "Insufficient Fare" when the MetroCard doesn't have enough money on it? It never says "Insufficient Funds." You'd think Transit would know this.
"You'd think Transit would know this."
Nothing new with NYCT, they hold the dubious distinction of displaying the Ecofest subway ad for NINE consecutive years (it takes place in October at Riverside Park), with the travel directions to take the 1 or 9 subway trains to 79th st/Broadway, when the event takes place on a Sunday. (The event was cancelled after 9/11 and I didn't see an ads for that event last year.)
Does NYCT know that the 9 train does not run on weekends, or the suits at 370 Jay Street are incapable of reading their own subway mao? Another reason to exterminate it completely.
I don't know what it says. I always know how much is left on my card. Anyone who doesn't is an idiot. Just my opinion.
Peace,
ANDEE
My impression was that it was trying to tell us that b/c of the lack of funds for the TA, you should use MVMs instead of the clerks if/when the clerks are removed. The ad seemed to have been for MVMs rather than MetroCard itself.
Hi all,
I am giving a speech on safety in the NYC subway system. Does anyone have, or can anyone direct me to a site where I can find anecdotes, or stories of subway crime, briefly summarized, to use in my speech? Any help in this matter would be most appreciated! Thank you
There are stories in the archive of this website on the subject, as well as dumb things that passengers do while riding the subways.
Questions:
1) What locomotives are shown in the picture?
2) Information about them?
BTW these photos were not enhanced with any imaging program. All are properly cropped and scanned.
Mail train number 8 exits the Musconetcong Tunnel at Bellwood Park, New Jersey. The train is eastbound in the siding having just met westbound mail number 3 on the other side of the mountain. The blizzard of '95 was in full force the day before this photo was taken on December 20, 1995.
Photo by Gordon Smith.
First one is 6144, a GE C40-8W.
Do a google search for "conrail locomotive roster" for details.
Second one looks like an SD-60M, don't quote me.
Nice Pic.
.........nice shooting keep up the good work ..............!!!
@...check out his new MARTA rail transit photography ........
a follow up atlanta sure does not look like it did back in the 1980s
when we were there ......4 sure ...!
did you see that horrible total gridlock jam that whent down there
a week or so ago ??............!
i beleive even the lexox mall station was not discharging passengers
it was as citywide / county mess did you see it ??
thankz
The city asked MARTA to stop discharging passengers at Lenox, but I heard annoucements throughout the system while I was riding that the station was still open the train were stopping.
Thanx that's what I thought!
Heard there is a fire a Penn Station and no service is going in or out. Anyone have any up to the minute or inside info?
LIRR service to NYP was suspended and part of the station evacuated because of a fire started by a loose cable hitting the third rail, according to NY1.
Newsday says a live wire hit a wheel.
I just heard about the fire at Penn Station on Channel 4, live Coverage now! The 1, 2, 3, & 9 Trains were bypassing 34 St. and the A, C, E Line are back to normal. There was a burning Cable on Track 21, LIRR is disrupted.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Oy vay. Suffice to say that my trip home was a wee bit disrupted. I come from Medford, which has only one evening train per day. I'm just hanging around Penn Station now (using a public Internet terminal) waiting for the 9:42 to Stony Brook - my wife works at the hospital there, and she'll pick me up when her shift ends at 11:30. So, instead of getting home at 7:15 or so, I'll be home by midnight or even later. Mostly that distresses me because I had wanted to hit the gym tonight, it being chest and biceps evening :(
Anyway, I do have a funny story to report. Around 6, as a huge crowd was gathered outside the not-yet-reopened station, a NYPD officer was telling people to try to get the LIRR at Jamaica. "Take the E train from 42nd Street," he told the crowd, "and take it to Jamaica Avenue." Ummm, right.
By the way, tracks 18-21 are still blocked off.
It'd work, if you go to Sutphin. Except that it would take about 45 minutes, compared to the 18-20 that it takes via LIRR.
Just went to Penn at about 9:45PM. At Track level, you could tell that something had been burning because of the smell. It was normal upstairs. Services appears to be back to normal.
BTW, I'm on a train right now out of Penn. God bless Verizon's QNC(Quick net connect)
Well, instead of catching my regular train, I grabbed an E train at 7th Ave and went out to Jamaica. BAD MOVE ........... I got to Jamaica at about 6:30 PM. There were several Huntington trains, several Babylon locals, a pair to Port Jeff and many many trains to long beach, Far Rock, Hempstead and West hempstead. By 7:30 there were still no Oyster bay or Ronkonkoma trains. The people in the info booth refused to answer any questions and no info was forthcoming about the Ronkonkoma line.
7:34 they announced one 10-car Ronkonkoma train on track #3. What a mess. By the time we got the signal to leave, it was nearly 8 PM. Oh, by the way, added stops at Mineola, Carl Place, Westbury & even a stop at Pinelawn at an ungodly 8:40 PM.
All and all, I try to view situations like this with some understanding but I can find no justification in my head or heart for the LIRR's management's poor performance. In a work, they really sucked, tonoght.
I got to Jamaica at about 6:30 PM. There were several Huntington trains, several Babylon locals, a pair to Port Jeff and many many trains to long beach, Far Rock, Hempstead and West hempstead. By 7:30 there were still no Oyster bay or Ronkonkoma trains. The people in the info booth refused to answer any questions and no info was forthcoming about the Ronkonkoma line.
Ridiculous, considering that Ronkonkoma is such a busy line, certainly more so than Far Rockaway or Hempstead.
Oh, by the way, added stops at Mineola, Carl Place, Westbury & even a stop at Pinelawn at an ungodly 8:40 PM.
Pinelawn??? Are they re-filming Night of the Living Dead?
I asked our Brake-person, Erin, a very similar question, "Who's gonna get off here except some kids looking to steal a skull or two?"
On a serious note, the scene on the platform for track 7&8 began to turn ugly. People banging on the window of the information booth, people demanding that conductors get on the radio and have supervision on the platform and even a chant of, "Oyster Bay. Oyster Bay, Oyster Bay"
For the LIRR, it's fortunate that we have a long weekend for some customers to have time to cool off. On the other hand, Tuesday my AM train from Ronkonkoma was 48 minutes late into Penn Station. There are some people who ride the line daily, see what's really going on, and then find the monthly BS report on their seat that the Ronkonkoma line has a 96% "On-Time" record. For many, the weekend will not be long enough and I supect that the LIRR will have a very warm Tuesday.
That "96% on-time" claim is ridiculous. How the LIRR manages to juggle the numbers, I don't know, but juggle them they do.
Juggling the numbers for the LIRR is easy. If you carefully read that little pamphlet "On Track" that you find on your seet monthly, the last page gives you all of the stats for the various branches. It also gves you one very important bit of information - easily overlooked. The LIRR considers a train late if it arrives at its destination more than 5 minutes and 59 seconds beyond its scheduled arrival time.
Unlike the NYCT, the LIRR does not count cancellations in their OTP (On Time Performance). If it never leaves, it can't be late. For example, last Tuesday, the LIRR had one train break down west of Ronkonkoma. It had to be pulled back intot he station. As a result, there were 5 or 6 trains that left Ronkonkoma late. However, since the LIRR simply cancelled the late trains and ran them as 'Extras', only the one train that broke down was officially reported as late. Extras, that have no scheduled arrival time - by LIRR definition - can never be late.
(However, since the LIRR simply cancelled the late trains and ran them as 'Extras', only the one train that broke down was officially reported as late.)
That borders on fraud. If I sold widgets and reported widget failures using those statistical methods, Elliott Spitzer would be suing me.
I don't have much of a 'business' head but when I hear about huge corporations taking a "one time charge for restructuring" and that effects the bottom line - and the stock price, it makes me wonder?
I don't have much of a 'business' head but when I hear about huge corporations taking a "one time charge for restructuring" and that effects the bottom line - and the stock price, it makes me wonder?
This is okay, as long as everything is fully disclosed.
LIRR used to have little Richie Kessel to complain and whine and stamkp his feet years ago. But Richie now feeds the hamsters at LIPA, which has sorta tamed him a bit. :)
I remember the ticket strikes among the riders. Maybe it's time again?
Unlike the NYCT, the LIRR does not count cancellations in their OTP (On Time Performance). If it never leaves, it can't be late.
That's actually the same thing as NYCT, only NYCT calls it abandoned. Then an extra will possibly run to take its place.
Same thing goes in NYCT for trains given a run. An R train runs express out of CTL, effectively that train never ran. Then when it gets to Queens Plaza and resumes its normal route, it becomes an 'extra' out of Queens Plaza.
Yes, it becomes an extra but an extra results from an ABD. ABDs count against OTP. Extras only fudge "through-put" statistics (IIRC).
Same thing goes in NYCT for trains given a run. An R train runs express out of CTL, effectively that train never ran. Then when it gets to Queens Plaza and resumes its normal route, it becomes an 'extra' out of Queens Plaza.
Is that what happens whenever a local is given a skip? Then I can understand very well why that's the preferred strategy on many lines, even if the skip doesn't save any time at all. A 1/9 is late to Times Square? Send it express on the local to 96th, even though the confused masses at 42nd and 72nd ensure that it would have been faster to just send it local. That's one run that never happened and an (on-time, by definition) extra out of 96th. I guess someone caught on, since I haven't seen much of that trick since September.
No more skips uptown. Now we get the 34-14-Houston-Chambers shuffle..
Da Beastmaster
No more skips uptown. Now we get the 34-14-Houston-Chambers shuffle..
Which works out great for me, as I travel from 34th to Houston.
Yes, I gather that's been the policy since 9/15; I've only seen one violation, one morning following a half-hour gap in SB local service, when the train I boarded at 86th skipped 66th and 50th. (Too bad it didn't occur to anyone to send one or two expresses down the local track to fill the gap.) I must say, it's a pleasure to be able to confidently board the NB 1/9 at 72nd without having to strain my ears to try to make out the "next stop" announcement.
Unlike the NYCT, the LIRR does not count cancellations in their OTP (On Time Performance). If it never leaves, it can't be late. For example, last Tuesday, the LIRR had one train break down west of Ronkonkoma. It had to be pulled back intot he station. As a result, there were 5 or 6 trains that left Ronkonkoma late. However, since the LIRR simply cancelled the late trains and ran them as 'Extras', only the one train that broke down was officially reported as late. Extras, that have no scheduled arrival time - by LIRR definition - can never be late.
Aha! Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky. Lately it seems as if there have been many more cancellations than usual. I guess the rotting old MU's don't handle cold weather well (or hot weather, or cool weather, or high humidity ...)
At least the LIRR caps "on-time" at 6 minutes. NJT uses the same 6 minute window to be on-time, but built what is affectionately referred to as "Shirley-Time" (after former NJT director Shirley DeLibero) into their schedules.
For example -- Southbound trains from Penn Station to Long Branch have 15 minutes of running time between Little Silver (the next to last stop) and Long Branch. However, a northbound train from Long Branch to Penn is only scheduled for 6 minutes from Long Branch to Little Silver. The extra 9 minutes of fluff right before the last stop means that a train could be 15 minutes late all the way down the line, and then pull into the destination 6 minutes late and then be counted as on time.
CG
that trick has been part of Amtrak for decades. The inbound time from Richmond (when they still stopped there) to Oakland (9miles was 45 mins--outbound 10 or so. The worst of it in their case is the "bonus" paid for lack of sabotage (delays) paid to the host RRs
It's not just AMTRAK...
For instance:
0639 ex London Marylebone
arr 0859 Birmingham Moor Street
arr 0906 Birmingham Snow Hill
Birmingham Moor Street is approximately 1 mile from Birmingham Snow Hill. The normal scheduled running time on local trains is 3 minutes.
This habit is probably universal. In the UK it is called "recovery time" - the idea is to make allowance for a certain amount of possible delay en route, while not making the train wait for right time at intermediate stops if there are no delays. Trains are not permitted to leave early from any stop, but nobody minds if they arrive at their final destination early.
On my regular commute, one of the hops has an unachievable timing (Bedford-Wellingbough, twelve minutes, start-to-start, for fifteen miles over a summit and then giving time for passengers to alight and board, speed limit of the trains 100 mph), so it is always late leaving Wellingborough. Often gets into Leicester on time, though.
Often gets into Leicester on time, though.
Must be the only train that does.
"that trick has been part of Amtrak for decades"
And generally originally attributed to Mussolini.
Back in the 70's ABD's were a way of life (I understand that's not as easily done as it used to be) and gap trains weren't on the schedule. It was the only way the TA was able to go to double digits for on time performance at the time. :)
(All and all, I try to view situations like this with some understanding but I can find no justification in my head or heart for the LIRR's management's poor performance.)
It does boggle the mind that the MTA agencies haven't yet figured out the value of communicating the bet possible informstion to their customers when things go wrong. It happens every time. They can never tell their customers what alternate routes are still working. There were similar postings on SubTalk when GCT was closed briefly the other week.
There's obviously someone who knows what trains will run when and where (at least some number of minutes out into the future). There should be a conduit to get that information from the operations
room(s) into the announcer's and information booths but it doesn't seem to be there.
When I got to Penn Station around 4:45 (having walked from Times Square, since the IRT skipped 34th Street), cops at the closed 34th/7th LIRR entrance AND NYCTA personnel at the 34th Street A/C/E station were telling everyone that all of Penn Station was closed, including NJT and Amtrak. This was, of course, not true (as I found out when I got to the still-open 33rd/8th entrance to Penn Station), but it didn't help me catch my train to Great Neck.
A bunch of LIRR passengers seemed to decide on taking the subway to Jamaica, some headed for Brooklyn, and I even overhead some who headed off to Hunterspoint Ave. None of those would be of use to me, so I ended up on the 7 express to Woodside, with the theory that I could either look for a Port Washington train there, or take the 7 all the way to Flushing and take an N20/N21 bus. At Woodside at 5:30 there were surprisingly few people, and trains bumper-to-bumper (or whatever the equivalent is for trains) sitting on the usual westbound main line platform with all doors closed. The LIRR booth had no information about any trains going anywhere, leaving the few passengers there pretty irate.
BUT there was a train with its doors open on the usual westbound Port Washington platform. I ran down, confirmed with a passenger that the train was heading east, and sure enough within a couple of minutes the train closed its doors (with no announcement) and started heading towards Port Washington. I got to Great Neck station at about 6pm, only about 45 minutes after my intended arrival time. There was a crowd of westbound passengers at the station with no information about what was going on, and a handwritten sign on the ticket window saying "Out on Company Business, Use Ticket Machine".
Overall I think the MTA did a very poor job of informing passengers about what was going on. On the other hand, I was happy to find that they were at least running trains between Woodside and Port Washington.
I dunno why they couldnt have used Woodside as a terminal. They should have used it for more trains than they did.
In the wide world of Lionel, that would be an excellent suggestion. However, in reality, it wouldn't work. One only had to see the chaos and confusion at Jamaica with overcrowding on 4 useable platforms. At woodside, there would only be just one usable platform for loading other than for Port Washington trains. At jamaica, LIRR was able to use tracks 3-8 for eastbound service. Also, while LIRR was able to turn trains at Metropolitan Ave.,(using 4 tracks for staging) turning them at Harold interlocking is a lot trickier as there is far less flexibility. It did seem as though the LIRR did stage some trains at hunters Point - hence stopping at Woodisde.
So, do all those out there they say the third track of the Jamaica el is a waste, still beleive it?
How about the re-alignment of the 75 ft. killer curves.
It would have been useful to have an additional service to Sutphin BLVD and the LIRR from NYC.
avid
"How about the re-alignment of the 75 ft. killer curves."
What 75' curves are you referring to?
How many M7's are currently on LIRR property? and/or in service? And does anybody know about the next delivery date for M7's to LIRR property? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
At approx 5pm saw a set of 6 M7's with "Flatbush Ave" signs on the South Atlantic branch towards JAM. (S. Atlantic meaning "local"). Did not catch numbers
i do believe 2 in service. used to be 3, but one was removed from service due to FAILURE IN AUTOMATIC PA. 7011 was the West motor on it, but i saw it at HSF(HILLSIDE FACILITY). in MNRR, LIRR is like our best friend, so we know whats goin on. hopefully when MNRR gets the M7s, i will be able to get some exclusives.........
A week ago, I was passing Holban yard on a Babylon train. In the back were two flat cars with two M-7's fresh delivered. One car number was #7047, if this helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody have any L Line Announcements from the R143? I would like to use it for my BVE L Line Simulator.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
What L line for BVE are you using? If it is the one made by Travis, Joe, and myself, it came with announcements that I personally made.
I've been on the R142(A)'s a number of times so far, and have gone through a listening of a myriad of "special" messages such as:
"We are being held momentarily by the train's dispatcher."
I know I have heard others but this is the one I clearly remember. Of course, as everyone knows, the same message appears verbatim on the red "scroll" texts on each side of the car.
Questions:
1) How many different "special" messages are there for the R142(A)'s and the R143?
2) What are they?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Not sure of how many special announcements there are but here are some that I know of...(not verbatim)
"We apologize for the unavoidable delay"
"Please do not lean on train doors" (corresponding message scrolls on the interior LED scroll sign
"Please do not hold train doors open" (this also has a corresponding message on the interior scroll)
There are 10 ( Possible), and 8 Actual mssages, under the label "Special Automated Announcements". They deal with: Do Not hold the doors, do not block the doors, do not lean on the doors, do not walk or ride between subway cars, this is the last stop, thank you for riding NYCT, apologize for the unavoidable delay, train being held to connect,
There are 10
1. Last Stop
2. Held By Dispatcher
3. Delay
4. Held for Connection
5. Thank you for riding MTA NYCT
6. Riding Between Cars
7. Blocking Doors
8. Holding Doors
9. Leaning on doors
10. Riding on the outside of the subway car
Is there a difference between 6 and 10?
Of course 6 refers to the space between cars's end doors. For 10, I'm assuming it refers to other possible spots maybe like latching to the top or sides of the car. It's anyone's guess, really.
Heh, I'd like to hear #10 one day! "Ladies and gentlemen, NO SUBWAY SURFING, YOU DARWIN!!!!!"
I've never heard #10. Is it played through the exterior speakers instead of the interior ones?
#10 don't play on the older R142's however is does play on car numbers above 6701 R142 and 7651 R142A. Trew crews are told not to play No.10 because there is no need to play it. Also #10 had a glitch that messed up the train at first but that problem has been currected. I have played the message and it goes like this "Ladies and Gentleman riding on the outside of the subway cars is dangrous always remain inside the subway cars"
Does an adult with a form of dwarfism who is less than 44" tall get to ride for free?
Does an adult with a form of dwarfism who is less than 44" tall get to ride for free?
Or what about an amputee?
I think the rule is you have to be under 44" AND under 5 years old. So, unless it's a young dwarf (and how would you be able to tell yet?), then no.
Nope...there's no age in the rule anymore -- strictly height.
David
So you can confirm that YES dwarfs get free rides if accompanied by non-dwarfs?
So Dr. Evil can ride the subway and Mini-Me gets a free ride?
Or back in the day, Kid Rock and Joe C.
I think that the MTA's policy is to grant free entry to children shorter than 44".
Dan
This is correct, but since HOBBITS don't come of age until 33...
And they don't get old until they're eleventy-one!
wayne
So, next time a shoeless short person with hairy feet comes along, i should let him in?
Only if accompanied by some one over 44".
Peace,
ANDEE
With all the R143s that have been put into service, freeing up R40Ms and R42s, why are G trains still only 4 cars long? It wouldn't take many cars to increase G trains to 6 cars each. Certainly that many cars are now available because of the R143 deliveries.
Without worrying about final yard assignments, the freed-up R40Ms and R42s could quickly be placed in service on the F line. Even three such trains would allow 24 R46 cars to move to the G, extending 12 trains. How many G trains are in service at any given moment?
The worst thing about the short G trains (and this could have been fixed from the start) is where they stop at certain stations, sometimes at the worst possible location. For example, a Queens-bound G stops at the northern-most end at Broadway, when the only exit is at the southern end, forcing passengers (er, customers) to walk (or more often, run) half the length of the station. Even at Metropolitan Avenue, with the heavily-used transfer to the L, the Brooklyn-bound G stops a full car length away from the exit at the northern end. (At least the Queens-bound G stops appropriately at this station.)
A more politically-connected ridership might have been able to have this corrected.
I think that they may be reevaluating and getting second thoughts about the shape of the equipment.
The R40M and R42 already have their line assignments in the BMT division, and they are to stay in the BMT division.
Heh, heh, heh, sorry (G) train, No diffferent trains for you.
BTW, I'm a BMT rider. :)
Im a IND/BMT rider, mostly IND rider.
Yup sorry G riders, you guys got it BAD :-\. Too bad the R32's won't be seen on the G for the forseeable future like before; R46's aren't so bad though however they will stay MINUS trains with the RF window.
More R32's coming from CI to Jamaica should finally allow 450' trains, and the last legitimate reason for G train rider whining can be eliminated.
"For example, a Queens-bound G stops at the northern-most end at Broadway, when the only exit is at the southern end, forcing passengers (er, customers) to walk (or more often, run) half the length of the station."
This is just utter lack of planing by the line manager. The 4 -car OPTO G if implimented correctly could be an example for running 4 car OPTO on other lines such as the N/R which could reduce their headways especially off hours and could save money which could be used elsewhere
"The 4 -car OPTO G if implimented correctly could be an example for running 4 car OPTO on other lines such as the N/R which could reduce their headways especially off hours and could save money which could be used elsewhere"
Where would you recommend that 300' N/R/W trains stop at:
- Union Square
- 34th
- 49th
- 57th
- Lexington
All are stations with heavily used north and south entrances.
I'm not saying OPTO is the worst idea ever. But please recognize that there is a service degradation that comes with it.
At Union Square I'd have the stop closer to the south end of the station since many folks are transferring to/from Lex and Canarsie Lines. At 34th Street... again towards the south end as many people would go to/from 34th Street and 6ht Ave line as well as to/from PATH and 33rd Street at the south end of the platform. At 49th and 57th Streets I'd try to have them stop near the midway point. At Lex I'd attempt to center them between the east end and half-way point because many folks are coming from Third Ave as well as to/from Lex Ave line.
Wayne
You need to balance the good with the bad.
The good shorter wait especially off hours. I picled the N/R as my example for a few resons. They have one of the worst headways for a line that runs through pretty populated areas in manhattan and brooklyn, queens. Two there low ridership especially on the sea beach is directly related to the crappy headways (and the lack of ecpress especially on the 4th ave.
The bad, sometimes passenger will need to walk further down a platform and possible miss a train due to it stoping at the wrong end of the platform. I have missed a train due to this myself. complely my fault i watched the train pass me and I froze
As long as the motorman consistantly stops at the same location and the stopping area is clearly labled the riding public will catch on.
If the MTA does decide to go in this direction. They should educate the riding public with handouts, ads etc.
The majority of the people over time will adjust. And they will be better off overall.
Money saved. This all depends how much the MTA cuts the headway. The more important part is more frequent service = more service (lets not be politico's and judge service as # of seats especially when many of the seats are unfilled for most of the route)
(You need to balance the good with the bad.
The good shorter wait especially off hours.)
You have a good point. But I suppose I don't really trust NYCT to keep their side of the bargain. Once they run 300' OPTO trains, dwell time and time needed to reach the middle of the platform go up, increasing my trip time. Do I really believe the increase in tph will remain?
(I picled the N/R as my example for a few resons. They have one of the worst headways for a line that runs through pretty populated areas in manhattan and brooklyn, queens.)
By the way, other lines that also have 6 tph off-peak frequencies are the B, C, D, the Brighton lines (post 2004 they'll certainly go to different destinations in Manhattan), and the V, not to mention the G, J, and M.
(Two there low ridership especially on the sea beach is directly related to the crappy headways (and the lack of ecpress especially on the 4th ave.)
I think you're buying Fred's propaganda. The alternative is an express bus or a different subway line. Is anyone going to take an alternate route (unless it's better for other reasons as well) just because they have to wait an average of 4 minutes* for an N in rush hour and 5 minutes in non-rush, rather than 2.5 minutes and 3.75 minutes respectively on the more frequent F? Only if you live exactly equidistant from the N and F.
* Headway = (60 min/hr) / (7.5 tph) = 8 mins; average wait is half of headway
(You have a good point. But I suppose I don't really trust NYCT to keep their side of the bargain. Once they run 300' OPTO trains, dwell time and time needed to reach the middle of the platform go up, increasing my trip time. Do I really believe the increase in tph will remain?)
That's a good question. Then again, if you have a $2.00 fare, the subway will be covering its operating costs and perhaps a little more, and in that case decisions might move to a business basis. Packed cars discourage passengers. My guess is they'll tailor TPH to ridership, just as they do now.
The real advantage of 4-car OPTO would take place nights and weekends. At night, they could be used to cut the wait. Weekends, when there is no GO in the area, they could be used to maintain express serive. Wouldn't it be nice to have Concourse, Brighton and 4th Avenue express service on weekends? And skip stop on the 1/9 and J/Z?
Wouldn't it be nice to have Concourse, Brighton and 4th Avenue express service on weekends?
There is 4th Avenue express service on weekends. The N runs express on 4th Avenue at all times. Nothing else can run express there on weekends since the N clogs up the express tracks at Pacific.
And skip stop on the 1/9 and J/Z?
NO!
"You have a good point. But I suppose I don't really trust NYCT to keep their side of the bargain. Once they run 300' OPTO trains, dwell time and time needed to reach the middle of the platform go up, increasing my trip time. Do I really believe the increase in tph will remain?"
Thats a good point but, if they run the shorter trains, and don't decrese the headway there would not be enough capacity to handle all the riders. This would create headaches that the MTA does not need. Sometimes you just must have some faith. The bigger problem is all the so-called advocacy groups argue such unrealist arguments that they have little pull at the MTA. I would love to band together a subtalk advocacy group of people who really could bring about positive change to the subway system. Although many people don't always agree with me. I believe that if we put our heads together and compromise we can put together a very good platform for change
"By the way, other lines that also have 6 tph off-peak frequencies are the B, C, D, the Brighton lines (post 2004 they'll certainly go to different destinations in Manhattan), and the V, not to mention the G, J, and M."
I would love to see 4 Car OPTO on the Q off hours (Brighton is my home line). This would especially nice overnights. The Brighton ridership could support 4-car OPTO with shorten headways 9PM(northbound)- 7 AM MON Thru FRi and most of the weekend. 4-Car OPTO can not be run everywhere due to a shortage of equiptent with full width cabs, issues with union rules that make it costly to break apart and put together trains for example overnights on the Q etc. It is better to roll it out slowly and learn from one's mistakes anyway
My friends and I often chip in for car service on the way home from the city after hanging out late due to the 20 min intervals on the Q. Shorter intervals would definitly encourage is to take the train and save $21.50 in the process
(Two there low ridership especially on the sea beach is directly related to the crappy headways (and the lack of ecpress especially on the 4th ave.)
"I think you're buying Fred's propaganda. The alternative is an express bus or a different subway line. Is anyone going to take an alternate route (unless it's better for other reasons as well) just because they have to wait an average of 4 minutes* for an N in rush hour and 5 minutes in non-rush, rather than 2.5 minutes and 3.75 minutes respectively on the more frequent F? Only if you live exactly equidistant from the N and F."
My grandmother lived directly across from the sea beach line (she gardened on city own land along the right of way at ft hamilton Parkway- May she rest in Peace). People avoid the Sea Beach due to the long waits especailly off hours. Once the N was taken off the 4th ave express/manhattan bridge, the all local route caused people to travel to other lines to get to work. Express bus service is very costly for the city. In addtion express bus service is mostly an rush hour only service. Although express buss due run off hours and weekends on some lines, the service is too infreqent and both more expensive to run and ride for it to practical. The MTA has certain fixed costs with the Sea Beach. One other irony about the se beach. If it had more frequent service people would use it more inter-bourough especially in brooklyn. The sea beach stops are ussually at major shopping avenues which residents of the area shop at. Ave U , Kings Highway, 18th Ave etc. unlike other lines like the Brighton there is no bus service that mirors the route. The 10 min wait scares people away especially in the dreary sea beach stations
The long commute times along the sea beach have negative effects to the neighborhoods around the line making living there less desirble. The same can be said about the west end line. West end express would have a huge effect on reducing express bus usage saving the MTA tons of money.
Take a looks at the last few stops on the brighton vs the last few stops along the sea beach and west end. The brighton neighborhoods are more prosporous and have tons of developent going on. There is a huge luxury condo development at across from brighton beach station that used the 28 min express tron service to midtown as a major selling point.
Moving to 4 car OPTO (preferable Advanced OPTO with CCTV in cab) and possible moving either the N or R to the 4th ave express would have a positive effect on ridership numbers and would possible spur some development.
In DC, the trains stop with the middle of the train at the exact midpoint of the platform. Of course, I don't see how OPTO would work on the N and R.
Union Square- towards the south end of the station for transfers to the 4/5/6 and L
- 34th - Towards the north end of the station for transfers to the 6th ave line
The next three I am not all that familia with the staion layout. I use these stations only occasioaly
- 49th
- 57th
- Lexington
Like everything else in life. There is some good and some bad. Short trains with more frequent service is a big improvements for these lines. Before the Q was moved back to broaday. The long waits on for the n/R mid day would give me secound thoughts about meeting my girlfreind at union square for lunch. I worked across the street from 34th street station. A 3-5 min ride once the trains arrive
I don't see how it would save money. You could have more trains running with the same number of cars, but that would require more crews working, which means more money.
Not true. Most N and R trains off hours and on weekends when I have observed have only 60 % of their seats full at best in brooklyn and are somewhat crowed in manhattan. This is especially true on saturdays after 7 pm with 12 minute on the R headways and 8 min headways on the N.
The situation for the riding public is even worse on sundays where the R runs 12 minute headways most of the day and the N runs 10 minutes headways most of the day. These kinds of headways scare away riders. This is especially true in manhattan where the broadway line waits scares people out of the subway and encourages people not to go out.
Reduce the headway by increasing the frequency utilizing 4 car OPTO to say 6-8 minutes on the R and 4-6 on the N . In the end you will be using less overall cars and crew and providing more frequent service to riders. This draw riders who now shun these lines due to the current waits.
What about manhattan? Broadway platforms in manhattan on weekends are somewhat crowed. This is largly due to the long waits in between trains. Reduce the headway, reduce the amount of people waiting for trains. It sometimes looks like rush hour on sundays at 34th street with all the people waiting and yawning waiting for a train
My suggestions are not pie in the sky. I have had weekend classes for the last year at two schools one by 42nd street and the other by 32nd street. The above will both reduce costs somewhat but more importantly improve overall service for the riding public on the broadway line, 4th ave and seabeach lines.
Most station stops for N and R trains runing on the local track are on the motorman's side of the train reducing the need for the motorman to walk to the other side of the train.
As with the G. Stoping zones make most sense where the majority of the people enter and exit. Clearly mark the stoping zone(color coding is the best way) and people will learn the correct place to stand.
The above could also be implimented on the Q and W on weekends and nights.
One note, CCTV camera's have been installed on platforms of broadway local station under renovation (prince, 8th, 23rd, 28th). Saw them while passing on the Q on the express track. I plan to make visits to the stations to get further details.
You G riders have been getting shafted for quite some time; you name it its been done. The R40M and R42 is most likely heading for CI so basically that's out. They could at LEAST put 6 vcar trains back on the G, I think 4 car trains is ridiculous. Well maybe they should reposition the OPTO signs at some stations to better accomodate passengers.
These cars are supposed to be at the dealers now. I couldn't believe it since MTH recently said they would available in April. I called a local dealer, and he confirms that he got them this week.
I think this is a bit unusual for MTH. Their issues are normally delayed, not early! It's ironic because the sets that these cars are to be a part of still haven't been released.
Someone is already selling the full work train set on e-bay, so I guess those have started arriving, too.
I passed on the work train (I made my own). However, I'm getting the rider car delivered next week.
The work train came out last year. What's happenning is that most collectors preferred the Rider Car separately, since that is the only legit piece of NYCT equipment in the whole set.
I don't believe the work train came out last year. Rather, the crane car and the crane tender car were released. The 4-car work set is supposed to have a tank car, a gondola, and a ride car.
Now if MTH will put out an R/12 in work clothes, we'' have a nice beginning.
avid
Get two! If you alreadt have a Red bird power car, swap bodies and you'll have a MONEY TRAIN, revenue train for pureist.
avid
"revenue train for pureist"
Sorry, Avid - not quite for the purest of the pureists. The R-95 Revenue Cars actually began their life as R-22s and not R-17s. It's close but ............... "No Cigar" as Monica never said.
Close enough for government work!
avid
Eye have a single R-17 & a single R-21, so a yellow with the silver & red would look real nice !
Red and silver may be the colors of the future, albiet with a yellow stripe or two. I'm trying to trade my R-95s (former R-22s) for some Corona R-33s.
Are you talking MTH or the 12 inches to the foot models?
I bought mine up this afternoon. I am sitting here admiring it as I write this. I only got one and that will have to do me.
The car is numbered RD339. The numbers appear to be actually printed on this car whereas I thought MTH's earlier models had a type of transfer or decal.
The end and side signs display "No Passengers" and "Not in Service". The middle side sign is blank.
I like it very much, but have never seen the full scale car in person. You experts will have to decide how good a job MTH did in copying the real one.:-)
Here ya go ...
Note: windows covered over with sheet metal. This is a common practice as some rider cars are used for storage of equipment and not just as a subway version of a caboose.
For the modeler: just get some thin plastic sheets cut 'em down to size glue'em in place and paint in them in the matching MOW yellow.
Why did I have a suspicion that MTH may not have checked out their numbered namesake before selling same. That's why the mischievous mind said, "let's post the picture of the REAL thing and see what happens?" I had a feeling I'd create a Calvin and Hobbes moment. :)
Well, to quote Geraldine*: 'The Devil Made me do it!" ;)
*for the much-too-young-to-have-known-crowd -- Geraldine was legendary comedian Flip Wilson's feminine alter-ego.
"Let's go FIND Ray Charles, hunny ..."
OH, BEHAVE!
Ex-queeze me? :)
I can see you're on a roll tonight :)
Mustard or mayo? Peekle? :)
You are pickled tonight :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Actually not ... but once I get through all these damned trojans and get the update out, I'm going to crack a keg. :)
I'd come up and join you... after last night's fiasco, thanks to a certain numbskull at work (on MY team, no less), I could use a dram or two myself... but I suspect that by the time I could get there the keg'll be dry :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, if your car will still turn wheels at 23 below zero, come on up. The company bar NEVER closes. :)
But best get a move on, rumor is we're headed for 34 below before sunrise ... if you make it, we'll even break out the single malt.
Wish I could have, but the truck gets a bit ornery when it drops below 10? F and at that point the heater's useless too... but after 38 years of service it's entitled to be as cussed as I am :-) It's cold enough here in Jersey, wish I could head for Arizona this month instead of waiting until 12 March... gonna soak up some sunshine (and get pummeled by my grandsons) for a week and a half.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the good news is we only got down to -19. But if you're ever up this way, you're most welcome to sit out here in the woods and feed the skeeters. Most of the trucks around here have wood stoves. :)
Hey Kevin, with two foot of snow coming, I think I will just stay in, and admire my R-17 MOW cars.
We're having a heat wave here, the temperature is 12 degrees right now.
Wowsers! Wave some of that heat up THIS way! :)
Thanks Kevin... will try to do that some time, I do have family in Schoharie County so might be able to combine the trip some day. Going to head out shortly for the grocery store; never know how many loaves of bread, cases of eggs, or gallons of milk I might need to survive the coming storm :-)
(Got plenty of good North Carolina wine though... my wife brought up a couple of cases when she came back last week. Can't get it here, have to haul it back ourselves, but it's well worth it. Now if the revenue boys hadn't hit Charlie's still again we'd have some good corn likker too.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kewl! We're a hop skip and jump from Delanson ... right across the border in Albany county, coming down the hill ... hope the snow ain't so bad, we're not going to be getting much up here FOR ONCE. :)
Gotta scoot and drop Subtalk for a while, just did an update for BOClean about three hours ago, brand new nasty just released and gotta do another one. This one can't wait for me to get some sleep, it's nasty. Agggh. I *hate* 30 hour days. :(
Charmin...:)
If you had to listen to Ray Charles sing about the "Powerball" lottery as much as we do, you wouldn't even mention his name.
It's about as bad as ...Does anyone know when the transit museum is going to reopen?
My sympathies on the powderball. Then again, be glad you don't have to hear the howling hillbillies singing "If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a clue" ad for the NYS Lootery. Transit Museum will reopen when Unca Selkirk buys a funpass or a looto ticket, whichever comes first. :)
Oooooh, nooooooo!
You devil, you!:)
Don't forget about Geraldine's boyfriend, Killer.
White boy sing da bloos. We gonna burn a watermelon on your front lawn, welcome to Stillwell, whitebread. Want mayo on that? :)
Unfortunately, the MTH model's windows are not covered with sheet metal and are very visable.
I wonder if it is possible that RD339 was in work service for a period before its windows were covered.
There's one I can't answer for you, hopefully someone else can. But figured since the picture of 339 was here, might as well fetch it for ya. I'd expect that the plates were over the windows when the car was first painted yellow though.
Karl, yes it is quite possible that RD339 did not have the windows covered when it first went into MOW service. IIRC, the current paint scheme of rider cars was established about ten/fifteen years ago...prior to that MOW equipment did NOT have the yellow w/black stripping treatment that is common in the NYCT system. What I'm saying is that RD339 might have went through a modification over the years even in MOW service into what we see in the picture (so graciously linked by our Una Kev)...
Doug, I like your reasoning. I'm going to accept that, and make believe that is the way it was in my little world down here.
Seriously, accurate or not, this is a nice looking model!
Wish it was numbered RD349* (as I have some shots of that particular rider car)...but then it would have to have an R-21/22 type end door to be accurate. :)
*RD349 began life as one of a ten-car set of special R-22's that were outfitted with rigidized aluminum interiors and pink-colored fiberglass bench seats.
BMTman,
Isn't there a R-21 rider car in the upcoming set? You may get your 349 yet. :-)
Chris C. Shaffer
I didn't hear about that...cool, if it's true!
What's the difference in the phases on the R32? I notice that the R32's that are on the C Line have different air sounds than the R32's on the E Line, etc.
The most obvious differnce is brake type. Phase I are WABCO. Phase II are NYAB. Acoustically speaking,, I find the NYAB system has a much firmer and more pronounced brake release, unless the T/O makes a strong handle thrust and the WABCO give off a distinctive "shwoosh"!!
There are differences in door operations as well.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
HVAC's different too.
A quick way to tell them apart is by the little plate down near the floor on the side of the seat banquette, by the door opening.
A round plate (looks like a plug) is a Phase I, a rectangular (with roudned corners) plate with a key hole in it is a Phase II.
wayne
Ah, beat me to it! Now I have to find another insignificant difference.
Can Phase I and Phase II cars train with each other?
Yes.
Robert
The E is like that all the time.
Yup different brake packages is one difference. Also the R32's on the E [Phase 1 I think] seem to start faster than the ones on the C; there's more differences I'm sure.
In LIC, of Jackson Av, there are two small dead-end streets called Queens St & Orchard St. At the dead end, you can see an excellent view of the Sunnyside Yards (Orchard St has a fence, however.) At Queen St, there is NO FENCE, allowing a excellent, clear view of the New York & Atlantic Railway yards as well as views of Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road, & NJ Transit trains. Be careful, as there is a sign telling you that this is NY & A property, and passing it and entering the yard can have you fined for trespassing.
I thought Sunnyside yard was owned by MTA LIRR (PRR), NY&A has local freight access in Sunnyside and LIC Yards.
NYA's yard is known as LIC Yard A, the yards for Amtrak, LIRR, & NJT are know as Sunnyside Yard. They are two seperate yards. Amtrak owns Sunnyside, LIRR owns LIC Yard A, NYA leases it under trackage rights.
If you lease an apartment from your landlord, then *you* NOT the landlord gets to decide who may come in and who is trespassing.
Elias
No, I'm not talking about the fact I'm still single. I'm talking about the 7 train. Well had major problems with both trips.
Going, around 8:30am, I got an R62A (w/a railfan window) and it was a good trip until we got to the switches just east of Queensboro plaza, there was a back up of trains. We had passed 2 locals, one right behind one that was let ahead of us at 33rd. That one had to wait for the express train ahead of it! A slow, but not unusual slow, until we hit Hunterspoint. We wait for 5 minutes for a train to leave Vernon Jackson, then we sit there for another 5 minutes. The signal stayed red for quite a while, I thought maybe there was a slow order in the Steinway tubes, but I didnt see lamps of yellow dots, when we finally got a yellow, it was a slow 10 min trip through the tube, stopping a few times for red signals. When we get to GCT I see some track workers and smell smoke (I guess it was a track fire).
It took 5 more minutes to get to 5th ave, making a 50 min trip from Flushing, 25 min of that between Queensboro plaza and Grand Central.
I took a D from 42nd to 59th, and we came in on the local track, and there was some confusion, but the D did switch to the express using the 2nd crossover.
I got off there for an uneventful A ride up to 175/GWB for the 171 bus. The trip to Garden State plaza was normal, but going back the bus was 15 min late (this was supposed to be the 5:26pm out of GS Plaza). I heard on the radio about Penn station, and hoped things would be cleared up by the time I got to Manhattan. But they werent.
The A train ride going down was fine (yeah, I had R38's both ways, and MCI's on the 171, well there's some good luck).
I got off at 42nd and walked the corridor, and then headed down to a packed 7 platform with no trains. I had a feeling something was wrong, and not just with the LIRR. With the additional crowds (LIRR refugees) the one train of Redbirds that pulled in filled up very quickly. And then came yet another problem, due to earlier problems, all 7 trains are running LOCAL. Well we finally pull out at 6:50pm, and get jam packed by GCT. Well at least were were moving. After getting to super sardine can levels, we stop for 5 minutes at the switches east of QBP, then finally proceed (me thinks the problem may have been here, lots of track workers all over the place). A very slow ride after that with even more door holding. Then at 33rd street one of the doors in our car got stuck, fortunately, it resolved itself after th c/r recycled the door 10 times.
At Woodside, some people got off (I didnt see any LIRR trains there, but just heard from 1010 that LIRR service has resumed, time 7:20pm). The doors close and an R62A express pulls in, fortunately the conductor opened the doors again and we all ran onto an already packed express. Well anything to get off that slow local. The express is its usual racy self all the way to Main st, where I get off at 7:35pm, not too bad. If the express didnt come along, I probably wouldve gotten there ay 7:55pm, not that it would've mattered, LI Buses were running 10-15 min late, due to extra riders and awful traffic. Dispatchers were on scene with extra buses, at that time though, the extra load had shrank.
Loads of traffic going back, quite unusual for that hour, but it was from Valentines clogging the roads, and in Bayside and Little Neck, cars were parked in the right lane, blocking traffic (where are the cops, with tickets that would be probably $10,000 right there).
Well thats my Valentines Day story, hope you guys had a better one!
I wonder what would it look like? Could it have been even possible? Say the city never built the IND. Sure, virtually all transit systems went under after WWII. But NY has always been a standout in ridership. So...if the Malborne (sp?) Street wreck never happened, the BMT didn't lose it's shirt in lawsuits, could it have adapted to the times?
If the IND was never built there would been that much more business for the two transportation companies. Or would it have just been ineveitable that, even in the Big Apple, government would have to take over?
Just curious at what you think might have happened.
well, the economics just don't work out. unless you emforce $&^-Mart wage scales and materials costs--which are neither practical nor morally acceptable--the farevox does not and cannot support operation AND caoital costs. So whether you pay a private vendor as for instance Metra commuter rail operations in Chicago or direct employment (LIRR etc) their will be tax monies expended. If you have a subjective preference for private vendors (which I don't) so be it, but IMHO the IND is a gem. While I will not argue the 'Hylan's revenge' issue, I am awestruck by the hugeness of the 'vision'--think of the 'mixmaster' below W4. 8 Tracks!!! For me the WI is The Second System. Imagine if the money hadn't been stolen/inflated/lost.
Imagine South Fourth Street in its planned full splendor.
The planned extensions to the IND sure did sound tasty. But the grandness of the proposals didn't preclude being formulated by private companies. Okay, "quasi-private" companies. But maybe...if the precedent hadn't been set by the construction of the IND lines, within the realm of the dense New York boros, especially before the post WWII suburban buildup beyond the city limits, the existing companies would have eventually built additions to their lines. This could have brought profitability to them.
I'll alter the WI a little: What if the BMT and IRT were able to institute the fare increases which could have allowed them to remain fiscally solvent? A ten cent fare in 1940. Or twenty cents. The eternal hoo-fa-roo about minor fare increases seems forced at times. Life is tough, definitely, but, IMO the transit fare process should not be based primarily on entry cost but on services rendered. For one fare you sure can travel a long distance! Much cheaper than owning a car. I just don't think we should bitch much about paying, say, $2.00. The service is well worth it.
So maybe, if the local politicos weren't so bent on harping on this issue, as they always have been as a cheap election ploy, from the days of the horse cars, keeping that unrealistic mindset (the one that obstinately states that intra-city travel should be artificially price supported without concern for operating costs), perhaps the issue wouldn't be so distressingly insurmountable.
If the BMT and IRT would have been allowed to freely set the fare they would still be in business today. No other rail operation in the world had the rider ship level and demographic makeup that makes mass transit work at that time. This allows for tremendous economies of scale that just don't exist even today in other parts of out nation. Considering much of the subway system was already built before construction costs went through the roof. The BMT/IRT would have been able to pay off the cost of construction with fares. Granted some lines we see today may not have been built. On the other side of the coin more lines may have been built. Other lines such as certain 'elavated lines that were torn down may still exist.
The two subway operators most likely would have had to merge at some point in time in order to gain some economy of scale. The fare to ride the subway would have had to be adjusted to meet the costs associated with running the business. This fare would have to be balance out in order to stay competitive with other forms of transportations. As with any business, the subway companies would have to properly manage costs while providing a quality product that would entice riders to use their service. Price the service too high, riders find another way to get around (buses, cabs etc)
Just as the IRT used marketing and the latest technology of there time to build and operated the first subway. They would have to continue to innovate and adopt new technology in order to survive.
Just as the telephone company faced with increasing subscriber growth and increasing labor costs developed technology to cut costs and increase capacity. (EX: automatically connected calls, automated operators, customer service, moved from copper to fiber optics, etc) The subway companies would have done the same.
The end result today would be a subway system that would be far more technologically advanced then the one we see today. The subway operators to survive would have had to work on ways to move more people at lower costs.
Innovations are often driven by necessity. The army needed an efficient way to calculate the trajectory of missiles => the first computers was developed.
Just as turn styles were developed to reduce the number of fare collectors. New ever evolving technology plus commerance inside station would have long transformed or eliminated the cost of token booth clerks
Technologies to reduce the number of crew members on the trains and people in control towers would have been developed and implemented sooner to address the rising costs associated with those tasks
The older rolling stock so loved by sub talkers would have been retired much sooner in favor of equipment that would have newer technology that would have reduced operating costs and address rider comfort concerns. On the positive side, sub talker would have had a greater variety of equipment to rejoice about as the subway operator worked to design a car that met their operating needs. The overall result would be a rail car that would be far superior to what we have rolling today
The subway system would also have far more retail activity operating within the system as the subway operators would have looked to other ways to monetize the foot traffic that passes thought the system every day. What make's rent for retail stores on some avenues higher then others
Location. Subways operates in some of the most prime location in the world
Foot traffic and demographics of some the riding public is very valuable. . Certain subway station would resemble underground malls while other would have fast food restaurants, newsstands and other business that would cater to the riding publics needs.
The subway operators would have realized the correlation between real estate prices and location of subway stations. They would have supplemented their income by buying land around major train stations they built. This money early on would help them finance new lines and subsidies research on developing new more efficient subway technologies
Employment levels today in the subways.
The subway operating company would have fewer higher paid employees (just like private industry) that would oversee maintaining, and monitoring the subway system that would be vastly automated. . Automated train operation, fare control etc. Managing the vast network of underground retail outlets, advertising etc.
Unlike anywhere else in the world NYCT subway rider ship would be able to sustain a privately operated, non government supported system... The shear volume of people from all walks of life who use the subway system would allow the subway operators to tap non transit revenues streams that are just not available anywhere else,
Just as newspaper found out that the cover price could not the cover cost of publishing a newspaper, they realized that the eyeballs that the news coverage generated were valuable to advertiser. Newspaper publisher make their money on adverting
Subway operators would have realized the same. The foot traffic that the subway system generated would be the real profit make. This would as stated above include retail, advertising and the biggest one of the all REAL ESTATE. Once you build a subway stop, the land above immediately becomes more valuable
(Alexander’s department stores (closed late 80's) became a real estate company. An analysis revealed that the store location if rented out were more valuable then operating the store)
NOTE: THE ABOVE REQUIRES DECENT MANAGEMENT AND SOME VISION> BELMONT SEEMED TO HAVE THIS VISION
I have no emotional investment in the IND other than the admiration for the 'vision' prteviously referred to. If the BMT had done the same, all the better because the 'merger' would have been quicker. As to the economics, the reality still is that NO PUBLIC transit system that I know of covers fully accounted costs. If the farebox covered even just operating costs--forget capital expenditures which include all cars, infrastructure etc--most fares would be three to four times current. (farebox recovery runs between 11 and 35% across the US. If you think our economy ALONE on the planet can function without backdoor subsidies as part of the political mix, please give examples. One of the more common causes of rioting in much of the world is a rise in food prices(often insisted on by the IMF/WB loonies who have NEVER bought food in their home nations that reflects actual costs.)
The post WWII autocentric suburban sprawl was not a 'capitalist' act. The GI bill was as socialist as it gets, both in house purchasing subsidies and college tuition which resulted in major demographic changes in the US. Once those programs and the so-called "Defense and Interstate Highway system" got going public transit was doomed.
Well, Hong Kong is a good example, where farebox recovers at least operational cost. Of course, real estate investment on new lines also recover the captial cost. However, given the fact that the network of Hong Kong's railways (KCR + MTR) is smaller and newer than New York. Thus, the operational cost is considerably less.
" As to the economics, the reality still is that NO PUBLIC transit system that I know of covers fully accounted costs"
This is partially becuse their is no real drive to make these operations cover fully accounted costs. Why? The operators know that they can count on a subsidy and most of these operations are public operations which lack the management and/or political will to modernize if modernization results in fewer union jobs. Plus private companies would not run 600 ft trains or articulated 60 ft buses at 3 am in the morning. In addtion few cities have the layout like new york where there is a reason to take mass transit at times other then going to and from work and a density where it is very difficult to drive places unless you plan to pay for parking. Parking near ones homes is also difficult.
As I stated before inovations is sometimes driven by necessity
Flash back to the BMT/IRT situation. If NYC would have allowed them to set thier own prices, and the higher prices resulted in lower usage they would have had to balance thier prices on the supply and demand curve and come with other ways to help pay the bills. Faced with making it on there own they would have to come up with a business model that worked. Fare box recover alone would be hard to pay the bills. If you look at many successful companies, they have diversified revenue streams that leverage thier core product. EX disney which was an animation studio. It is hard to make money just on the animation sales alone. Disney started making toys, amusment parts, retail stores etc that leveraged thier core animated character that provided added revenue streams that allowed them to expand.
Take a look at the airline industry once deregulated. Prices droped. And now technology and the inovations of SouthWest Airlines(and it's clones) has driven down costs and fares even further killing the now unworkable old airline business model
The rail companies as described from my previous respoce would be intergrated retail, real estate, advetising as well as rail operations. This intergrated structure would allow these companies to be profitable overall as without the rail operations the other revenue streams would not exists. They would run the level of service needed. There would be more analysis of rider patterns and structure the service to these patterns
Public operators choose not to tap into these revenue streams for a few reasons. The largest is that politicians don't want to compeat with the powerful real estate interest that support there political campaigns. Diversified retail within the subway system compeat with these busnises operating above ground inside building owned by the real estate companies.
If the IRT/BMT operated the subways. Lights would be shut off in fare controls closed off for the night(the porters closed at AVE U on the Q always has the lights on) . Lights inside tooken booths that are currently closed would be turned off. Unions and management would have to work better together to meet both mutual interests. Work rules and the lack of timely upgrades of subway infrastructure greatly inflate the cost of operating the system vs. what it would cost if private comapnies always ran the system
The subway operators would have realized the correlation between real estate prices and location of subway stations. They would have supplemented their income by buying land around major train stations they built. This money early on would help them finance new lines and subsidies research on developing new more efficient subway technologies
Indeed. Before the IRT extended itself into the northern Bronx, these parts were as rural as was Queens before WWII. Similarly, before the Queens IND, Queens was basically one big truck garden.
My own thought is that the LIRR should have become the third subway company, with the Pt. Wash, Montauk, Rockaway (and other now abandoned/destroyed) branches essentially becoming the Queensborough subway lines. Think of it; what's now the PW branch would have been a four-track main trunk line running out into NW Queens with a branch down what's now the Kissena corridor and another to Rockaway and out to Rosedale.
As I recall, the LIRR was owned by the Penn RR. They mighta run four more tracks from LIC, perhaps via 34th St, river to river, and thence into NJ more or less competing with Path at Hoboken.
Actually the H & M, which preceded PATH, jointly operated the aboveground tracks west of Journal Sq with the Penn RR. Its distinct logo appeared on the air conditioned cars the H & M started running in 1958.
Once again political corruption and the lack of thinking in the best interest of the public at large by local politicans, Doomed the rail companies in NYC
The mayor who in the quest to stay in office and grab power from the BMT/IRT did not allow fare increases to keep up with costs. Of course this was very popular with the general public.
Lets be honest. The BMT/IRT would be one of the most powerful businesses in NYC if they were left alone to build out thier network. They would own large tracts of land and thousands of apartments citywide. This kind of power threatens mayors.
Till this day NYC is full of local politicans who play on the public lack of knowlege and create fears inorder to win votes. Some examples of are
Ex: 1) part time tooken booth closings
2) NYC school reorganiziong plan - Carl Kruger(state sen from my district just filled an obstructionist lawsuit designed to block the department of educations reorganization.
I decided to call senator Kruger and find out what was his plan for improving NYC schools. Kruger had no plan. He said it was fine just the way it was.
All he had was some not so nice things to say about the mayor which played on the mayors own personel wealth. He played the clasic rich vs poor card. Needless to say the fair mayor did not grow up with a silver spoon in his mouth ala the Kennedy or Bush clan .
Bloomberg took out loans and parked cars to pay his way through college. The media fails to mention he grew up in a working class family and gained wealth through hard work. The media chooses to highlight his current wealth and Kruger only reason for filling the lawsuit to protect the public from the wealthy Bloomberg who does not have the expertise to oversee educatioal issues
The real reason was to play to public fears to try to get votes. Last year as the city senior center's were struggling with funding cuts, kruger was busy securing money to build a brand new $5 million dollar senior center in Marine Park.
"The subway operators would have realized the correlation between real estate prices and location of subway stations. They would have supplemented their income by buying land around major train stations they built."
This is exactly what the Metropolitan Railway Company (privately owned until 1933) did in London in the 1920s - creating the "Metroland" suburbs in northwest London that John Betjeman wrote poems about.
That was then. This is now. It is doubtful whether *pure* private enterprise could build rapid transit lines anywhere in the developed world now, given the levels of car ownership that exist. (And even if it were financially feasible, the companies would still need government to use its eminent domain powers to defeat the NIMBYs.)
I think the addition of the IND is analogous to the parkways: ugly motivation, but it had the good effect of adding MORE PARALLEL SHORTER lines rather than extending the ends of the existing lines too early. With only the IRT and BRT, the lines might have gone out into Long Island and Westchester and become overloaded as the suburbs built up, always fighting to become busier and busier to handle the crush, with more bus service to wider-spaced stations, like BART. Like 10-lane expressways in Chicago instead of 4-lane parkways all over Westchester.
Of course, who knows which one, the BART-style (long and heavy) or the Paris-style (short and dense) would have better prevented the coming of automobiles and suburbs?
> Of course, who knows which one, the BART-style (long and heavy) or > the Paris-style (short and dense) would have better prevented the
> coming of automobiles and suburbs?
I think our equivalent would be the LIRR Babylon Branch from Lynbrook to Massapequa Park. Closely spaced stations, frequent service, completely grade separated, all stations served by connecting n/s bus service, paralled by an arterial signaled hwy for the entire stretch. It is truely a "suburban rapid transit" line.
Relating back to my original post, perhaps if the Long Island Expwy and the parkways were never built, more of Long Islands' development would have clustered along the rail lines. Maybe with that type of development the economics of privately owned transit would have been more favorable. By now, minus the 495 construction, I imagine the Main Line would have been enlarged to four tracks, maybe six. And just as the LIRR ran suburban trains over the Broadway el to Chambers Street, within this supposed matrix I could see the BRT running "suburban super-expresses" out into Nassau County over the enlarged LIRR infrastructure.
And, being private, without the restriction of stopping at the city line. There's nothing as ridiculous as the IRT stopping at 241 st, which might have been part of the reason the socioeconomic jump is most noticeable in the stretch between the Bronx and Connecticut.
A case in point about prices. I lived in Boston (Back Bay) in 1984. Back then, a phone call was still ten cents. Pay phones were nearly non existent then. I lived three blocks from the State House and I had to walk over three blocks to Marlborough Street to find a pay phone. I usually had to wait in line for it.
I visited Iowa in 1985. (I would never live there.) Phones were 35 cents in Iowa. They were everywhere. I even saw phones at rest stops that were at truck cab level so drivers would not have to get out to make a call.
This may be a novel idea in a "capitalist" system especially to my fellow New Yorkers who usually lean toward socialism but I think that train, bus commuter and all other fares should rise to their own level of equilibrium. In your what if scenario, I think that BMT and IRT should have been able to set their own fares, even if they were not the same. I remember when it cost more to ride from Rockaway. They could have had similar variables, or a London style fare system. The private company will eventually come up with a profitable formula. If it doesn't then it can fold and sell its lines to another company which can make a profit. This is how it works in capitalism. New York City has some other economic notions. Nothing works like pure capitalism.
You wouldn't live in Iowa? What, you don't like corn? :>
Well, I guess the reality is, just as in almost everything else, the operant color is grey. (gray?) The system can't baldly operate on a pure capitalistic basis. Which, I guess, is understandable. I sometimes look at it this way: We de people, in general, collectively agree to not tear the public infrastructure apart when no cops are around, in order to sell the materials for salvage money. Plus, we agree to not kill the barstards that surround us and jostle us and in general try to interfere with out pursuits. These unwritten behaviorial agreements, when followed by the majority, allow institutions such as banks and factories and transportation systems to function. Indeed, we follow our agreements so darn well that those who feel confident in the stability engendered by our "civilized behavior" gain profit by it.
Conversely, Dem the Capitalists agree to not knock us out and steal our wallet when we enter upon their premises, nor do they purposely aspire to poison us when we consume the food they produced. And they agree to "basically" give us proper value for our offered currency. Hence we can live under the assumption that our daily lives can go on without undue concern about each and every action we take.
There is no such thing as a purely Capitalistic State, as much as there's no such thing as a purely Democratic State.
I agree that it would be better if the economics of intra-city transit allowed full farebox recovery of all expenses...and some profit to boot. It only seems logical, after all. So okay, this ain't happenin' just yet. Still, within the boundries of the system as it is, there are plenty of ways to maximize the property value. I would love to see an experiment where one trunk line was picked and separated from the rest of the system. The logistics of such a move would be pretty complex, true. Upgrade that line. Reduce the number of seats...make `em more comfortable. Make it express only, or "super express". Charge, ummmm, double the regular fare.
Come to think of it, the Train To The Plane was very close to that idea. And from what I remember, there WERE commuters in Howard Beach who gladly paid the extra fare for the non-stop besides Jay/Boro Hall trip in. So the idea does have possibilities. This might be a good project for some Kollidge Kids to run computer simulations on. Do it for each line. Analyze the respective possibilities of this type of service. Break down the data and let us know what's cookin'.
Just because we can't achieve the perfect scenerio based on "reality" doesn't mean we can't get creative within the system.
When you drive from Reynosa (on the Rio Grande across from TX and about 20 miles south of McCallen) to Monterey, Mexico, you have a choice of two roads which run nearly parallel to each other. One is the free road and the other is the toll road. The free road is full of potholes (worse than the expressways in the city) and all kinds of other irritations. I would not be surprised if cars are exposed to attacks by bandits after dark. There are no lines at all on the free road.
The toll road pays for itself and is as modern as any US interstate highway, with up to date signs and all other modern conceniences. I don't know if it is private or not. Anyway, subway lines can be like that too. Public and private. With all that goes along with it.
socialism thought is a major problem in New York. It prevents free thinking on ideas that could potentially improve operations nd peoples lives.
NYC has the volume to support a private non-subsidies subway system. The systems revenues would be a combination of fare's and other revenue sources.
Remember what the public is willing to pay ultimatedly set the fare. If the cost of operations exceeds fare box recovery, the rail (like any other) compaies look to other sources of revenue.
1) Retail and advertising
2) Real Estate Development
and one I did not think of, premium express service
The problem in this city, as demonstrated by the recent private line pension wow's. It is expected for the city to bail out the contract operators whenever they have problems. The unions and operators expect the city to be thier personal piggie bank. Neither side looks at themselves to solve the problem. Why? the city has consistantly caved in to the pressure.
large parts of this city have been transformed into government supported socialistic society which
1)Chased tens of thousands of blue collar jobs out of the city over the past 30 years
2)chassing many white collar jobs out of state
3) Created a feeling that govenment needs to pay for the good life no matter what the job is. Needs to keep around job title that are no longer needed and keep giving raises to already above market salaries
This has created an environment which makes it difficult for private business to operate this feeding the socialist environment.
2)Chased
So...if the Malborne (sp?) Street wreck never happened, the BMT didn't lose it's shirt in lawsuits, could it have adapted to the times?
The BMT never did lose its shirt on Malbone Street lawsuits - it was product of the BRT reorganization. The BMT emerged from the BRT bankruptcy stronger and more profitable.
And it adapted to the times much earlier than the City and would have continued evolving on a much faster rate IMO. In 1939 the BMT developed a new car called the Bluebird - Compare THIS to the R-9's or the Redbirds the city was giving people to ride. A New York Times editorial in 1939 said this car "will make each trip to work a delightful adventure, each evening's homeward journey a period of happy relaxation".
The issue was the fare. Operating costs were rising fast, but the company was stuck at a five cent fare. Then in the late 1930's the city tacked on a gross receipts tax - effectively reducing that fare even further. Only a renegotiation of the Dual Contracts allowing for fare increases would have saved the company. Perhaps a utility style regulatory system could have been put in place guaranteeing a fare structure that allowed for a fair rate of return to the company. Then we would be riding next generation Bluebirds today!!
I think that it was the five cents fare (for fifty years) which made the BMT go under. Prices and expenses rose, but the fare was made to stay the same.
The IRT invented MUDC (multiple doors by one conductor) to help save money on train staff. It worked for a while, but prices kept rising. Also single staffed stations were an IRT invention. They once had two per station, but started using one plus turnstyles.
1- What HOURS (or periods of day) does the < 6 > PARKCHESTER EXPress
operate? (and in which direction)?
2- At what frequency do EXPRESS 6 trains depart from Pelham Bay?
(or those who BECOME Express upon reaching PARKCHESTER)?
I ask as a result of having dispensed IMPROPER information today
to a relative regarding the EXPRESS 6.... and got BARKED at
for it... I should know better, I'm on SubTALK for Davesakes!!
Anybody willing to clue me in?
:s
Manhattan bound BRONX EXPRESS trains leave pelham bay from 6:10 AM to 12:16 PM, and Bronx bound <6> trains leave BB from 12:30pm to 8:19 pm. The frequency of BRONX EXPRESS trains is variable, depending on time of day, but bronx bound <6> trains peak at every 4-6 minutes, and manhattan bound <6> trains peak at every 3-5 minutes.
During the day, between 10a-3p, trains depart both Pelham and Parkchester every 8 minutes, providing 4 minute headways on the Lexington Ave. local.
Rush Hours is every 2 to 4 Minutes Below 125 Street. Every 2 to 6 Minutes for the Pelham Express and every solid 8 Minutes for the Parkchester Local.
Also long as the ICE don't trip you up or any other delays the headways work out.
The 6-Pelham Express operates pretty much the whole day (weekedays) with S/B trains operating express through the late AM/mid-day and N/B trains operating express from mid-day into the early evening hours. During these times Pelham express trains operate to Pelham Bay Park and Pelham local trains terminate at 177th Street-Parkchester.
I don't know the exact headways, but duirng the mid-day base periods I'd guess that they're on 5-7 min headways.
Wayne
some Pelham local trains go to Pelham Bay Park in peak direction as well
Sure, here we go.
Toward Brooklyn Bridge 6:30am-12:15pm
Toward Pelham Bay Park 12:30pm-8:30pm[about]
All <6>'s are express to/from Pelham Bay Park making all stops after Parkchester/E 177 St, all (6)'s are local and run to/from Parkchester. The frequency of the <6> is every 6-8 minutes throughout the day in the peak direction and ALL 6 service combined is 3-5 minutes all day weekdays. You know us Subtalkers are always willing to help whenever we can :-).
The first EXP out of Pelham is the 6:10AM and Last 12:16PM. Uptown the Express first one leaves Brooklyn Bridge about 12:22PM and the last is the 20:19 Brooklyn Bridge.
The headways out of Pelham is every 8 Minutes Middays. Every to 2 to 8 Minutes Rush Hours. Parkchester is always every 8 Minutes which causes 2 Pelhams for every Parkchester Local during rush hour.
Wait a minute, there's actually a time when Pelham trains outnumber Parkchester trains on a 2-to-1 ratio? If so, it can't be for more than a few intervals.
Yes between 4PM and 4:30PM on the PM Rush. I follow 2 pelhams on my first trip and get a heavy pick up at 125 St.
it seems the 5 line is the ML R 33s to the 4 line I saw this consist takenO/O/S at Grand Central Friday Morning. south motor 8931 8930 9238 9239 9090 9091 9160 9161 9232 9233. I thought the 4 was reefing their redbirds??
Please disregard the first message. I meant to say it seems that the 5 line is sending their ML R 33s to the 4 line and 9233 is the north motor.
20 more R142s went into service this week on the 5. 7041-45 have entered service, I don't what the other 15 cars are at this moment.
350 R-142s now roam the 5, only 2 more trainsets are needed.
Perhaps the last stand of the Mainline Redbirds will be on the 4?!?
-Stef
Or the 7. They've been getting some from the ML as well.
Or the 7. They've been getting some from the ML as well.
33s? There are a handful of R-36es; they've been in Corona for a while. The ten 33s that came over for the ten-car test lasted a weekend, then went back to the Bronx.
I really don't know. If it helps, they are the trains with the square windows. Wait a minute, is there an R36 ML and an R36 WF?
Yes, the ML R-36s look exactly like the ML R-33s. The WF R-36s have picture windows.
As Steve said... ML R-33 look identical to ML R-36. The only way I can dsitinguish between the two is by the fleet number. Those ML R-36 are in the 95XX series.
Wayne
What about the interior lights? They're the old style (like the R-36WF) on the R-36ML and the new style (like the other ML's) on the R-33ML.
Well seems like more and more R142's are making their way to Unionport and 240 St; therefore its pushing the R33's away from the 5. So people RAILFAN NOW on the 5 before its too late!
There were no official transfers of redbirds from one fleet to another over the past two weeks. All that's taken place is that East 180th has scrapped 2 R-26s (8 left) and 20 R-33s. Corona also reduced it's redbird count by 8 cars. There are still over 400 redbirds listed as "revenue active" as of this AM. Total fleet size for revenue-Active cars is 6,354 cars.
Only 8 cars? It's a pity they're going so slow. We need those R142's shipped! I just can't wait when Corona Barn is rehabbed... Seeing all of those R62A's, I just hope they preserve the footbridge. By far, Corona is the most public-friendly!
240th St, 239th St, Jerome, East NY and Pitkin offer very little in the way of Public viewing access. On the other hand, as you say Corona offers some easy public viewing accass. Then again , so do shops like Jamaica, Concourse Pelhan and even Coney island. If you know where to go, you can see more of these yard's operations than you can at Corona.
Really? I didn't know... I'd like to visit other yards, but I don't think NYCSubway offers enough info on touring yards without any real trouble. I assumed Corona was the best because you can walk over it, technically.
Jamaica yard - from 78th Crescent you have a birds eye view of the yard lead. There is a footbridge over the Grand Central Pkwy that is parallel tot he yard. You can walk around the outside on all sides via Willow Lake and the van Wyck Expressway.
Concourse yardBedford Parr Blvd. Bridge crosses Concourse yard midway - just beyond the back of the shop. 205th St bridge crosses the yard just at the portal. Jerome Ave offers an unobstructed view between 204th St & the Car Wash. Paul Ave view is so-so. Also, from the bedford park blvd. station, the view is pretty good.
Coney Island Complex Offers street level views from McDonald Ave and some of the other perimeter streets. From up above on the belt Pkwy or from the Ave X station (F line).
East 180th St is above street level but from the Bronx River Pkwy or the E180th St station, you can see much. 207th St and Pelham yard have several areas on their perimeters where you can get a pretty fair look, too.
Even Pitkin and East NY, while having limited viewing from street, there are a few places where you can get a peek.
Jamaica Yard... if the footbridge you're talking about is the one I'm thinking of (the one that shares structure with the yard leads) then they fenced that in a few years back... I was quite surprised, I thought the parks dept. controlled that part of the bridge, but NYCT put up a fence and "No Trespassing" sign.
Thanks for the information, despite Henry's disappointing post on Jamaica's 'closure' to the public. Hmm...
Check it out! Doesn't this train look weird? I'm glad this aint the finish product.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
When is an F40 not an F40? I guess when its a MP36PH-3C. Apparently METRA is buying some as well. The question is, where is that rebuilder getting all those used F40's?
ATK?
Sounds likely? Were any F40's used for freight service, or are they strictly passenger engines?
some were short term leased by maybe UP, IIRC.
Metra does have some of the MP36PH's....their units were built before the Caltrain units. And they have a VERY striking paint job. VERY striking....
Looks like it has a Genesis' rear end.
I like the design.
Looks Like ICE Locomotive, Like the Design but kill The Logo.
I agree, the new Caltrain livery sucks. That big red dot makes it look like....nah, I won't say it. I don't want to offend anyone.
It looks good. Nicer than the squarish diesels that we're used to seeing on American railroads. Maybe I just like bullet-shaped trains more.
It is the finished product!
Take a look at LA, San Diego, Seattle/Washington DC, and western Canada. They ALL have the same design as the F59PHI.
Actually that's not the finish product, its not done yet.
What proof do you have that it's the finish product? If that is the finished product I don't want a model of it! LOL!
What makes you think it is NOT the finished product?
Where can I get one of those http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/7_rwno.pdftake-one. I can't find them in canal Street
The link does't work.
Sounds like other people got there before you.
I don't think the posted notices are meant to be treated as "Please take one" items. The result is that later arrivals see no notices and don't realize there's a problem.
And then everyone on SubTalk blames NYCT for not putting out notices.
Well of course there are plenty of them in the token booth. I can just simply ask the clerk for one or call 718-330-1234. I'm pretty sure token clerks are thrilled to see someone having those "take one" handy instead having them to explain to riders in detail on how to get to 57th Street. Most of the time, token clerks do gets annoyed when numbers of riders came to them asking how they get to their destination when G.Os/detour taken place on subway lines. That what those "take-one" are for..To make his/her job easiers. True, There is plenty of things to do inside the booth.
Here are some hi-lites from my Chicago trip about a month back.
Frist, a shot of the skyline somewhere around the vicinity of Randolph St. Station
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Chicago_loop-skyline.jpg
Here is a view of the CNW Terminal throat hilighting the dwarf semaphores still in service.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CNW_Semaphore-Dwarfs.jpg
Here is a closeup of a dwarf semaphore unit
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAKE_ST_CNW_Semaphore-dwarf.jpg
Here is a view looking back inside the train shed
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CNW_shed.jpg
Here are METRA units 147 and 132 under the shed
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_147+132.jpg
Here is a look back at the CNW terminal
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/LAKE_ST_CNW-Curve.jpg
And the interlocking with its Dwarfs plus METRA engines 155 and 168
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_155+168@LAKE_ST_CNW+semaphore-dwarfs.jpg
Here is METRA F40 rebuild #188 switching on the tail tracks just west of the Union Station Y
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_188.jpg
METRA #149 approaching Lake Forrest station
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_149.jpg
And two gallery cab cars on opposite tracks at Lake Forrest station
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/METRA_Twin_Cabs.jpg
I hope you enjoy, comments are appriciated.
Great pictures! Doee anyone think if semaphores were ever used in the NYC Subway System? Are they better than the block system?
Oops, I meant does anyone know if semaphores were used, and somehow I think not...
Get an old NYCTA rule book or an old BRT rule book - even better, get an old IRT rule book - the BMT and IND lines had semaphores, and the IRT lines had them at the yard at 180th Street up until about the 1980's, to the best of my recollection. There is one on display at the Transit Museum which was located at New Lots Ave. station in Brooklyn before it was finally removed sometime in the 1980's. I remember seeing it in place at that station and in operation. Time flies when you are having fun.
Any idea why they were replaced, though? Is block signalling better? I'm a bit confused since the LIRR and MNRR still use semaphore signalling.
I think you are a little confused. Semaphore signals are used in block signaling. Automatic Block Signaling is a comprehensive signal system. Semaphores are one way the signaling system interfaces with the human operator. Colour lights or position lights are other ways.
Ah, thank you.
New switch is being cut in immediately north of the southbound platform at Jackson Ave. 2 and 5 service is currently knocked out for the work. Interesting!!!! When this switch is installed, it will be possible for a southbound 2 or 5 to bypass only Jackson Av on the way downtown.
I have a front row seat for the festivities.
-Stef
Yeah, I saw all the workers there under Westchester Av around Jackson Av last week when I rode the 2/5 shuttle bus.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
I've been reading some threads over at the Rider Diaries and their anti-V antic aside, some of their plans (in a nutshell) are to toss the V and have the Q run to Queens Blvd. Any problems with this?
Personally, I don't know why SO MANY people are anti V; I happen to like it and it is serving its purpose so far, which is reducing the overcrowding on the F. The Q via Queens Blvd subject was shot down here and plus the express tracks can't handle such busy and popular lines like the E,F & Q while leaving ALL of its current service. E & F service would have to be reduced to allow the Q to run express; it would be nice but people will notice that and will not go for it so its a thumbs down :-(.
I completely agree with you as I am pro-V as well.
About the plan for the Q extension, I should have mentioned that the Q would be a local, not an express. Still any issues?
Since there is already one express operating through 63rd Street (the F, which begins its express run east of Queensbridge), it would make sense that, if the Q-Broadway Express is extended through 63rd Street also, it will run local in Queens.
If they plan on doing that.
Insanity. Only the E on 53rd St?
53rd Street: (E) (F)
60th Street: (N) (R)
63rd Street: (Q)
Hillside Avenue (E) (F)
Continential Av (R) (Q)
Astoria (N)
Any Questions?
:)-
Any Questions?Any Questions?
Yeah... What about 6th Avenue and 57th Street?
BTTODB!
I would assume all anti-V plans would have not overlooked the 57th/6th St station. Maybe I gave their framers too much credit.
Keep the V in place, but make its terminal 57th, 6th. Two locals in Manhattan are better than one.
57th St. to 2nd Ave? What a waste of money.
Yes, I have one Elias and you know what it is. Will the Sea Beach finally get back onto the Manhattan Bridge and out of that disgraceful Montague rathole?
You're right.
Yes.
If you put the F back on 53rd Street and run the Q to Queens via Broadway and 63rd Street, you'd have no service at the 57th Street/6th Avenue station.
If both the F and Q use 63rd Street, you won't have enough service to the 53rd Street stations.
If you run the Q to Queens via 6th Avenue when the bridge is fully open, Brighton riders would most likely be stuck with only 6th Avenue service instead of being able to choose between 6th Avenue (D) and Broadway (Q).
If you run the Q to Queens via 6th Avenue when the bridge is fully open, Brighton riders would most likely be stuck with only 6th Avenue service instead of being able to choose between 6th Avenue (D) and Broadway (Q).
I think this scenerio is the least likely of all anti-V proposals. Running 3 lines on the north side and one on the south side of the bridge would negate the increased capacity. B/D & Q trains could nor run at more than 9 TPH during rush hours.
$@#% the V haters. The train is here to stay.
Hell yeah!I agree with you!The V stays,those who don't like it can pack thier bags and get the hell out of the city.Good ridiance to bad rubbish.
Isn't it funny how I defend a train I almost never ride unless I'm railfanning.
Don't sleep on the V. It's actually a pretty useful train now, and will become more useful if it's extended into Brooklyn. I think the V HAS helped. Except for those poor G riders, I can't see why there's so many "V-haters" out there.
Remember people:
LOCAL = BAD
EXPRESS = GOOD
"LOCAL = BAD
EXPRESS = GOOD"
And a "light" train is best.
No passengers. No stops at all until it gets to the terminal or yard. Less power needed. No announcements, no door openings.
:0)
Except when locals are zooming along while expresses plod.
Like Queens Blvd around 8 AM.
Or someone sneezes on the #4 train in Manhattan at 5:10 PM, and is taken off because (s)he is a PINOMA (Person In Need Of Medical Assistance.) But the damage to the Lex Ave Express is already done.
Remember people:
LOCAL = BAD
EXPRESS = GOOD
This is the mindset of those people.
You've said nothin truer CP. The railfan mindset however we see the local being useful in SOME instances; on QB, the express especially is the life of that line to those riders.
I'd like to see how'd they like it if the express tracks were torn away and ALL QB trains were local and instead of all the trains running at their current interval's between trains,make em all run every 30mins!I'll just be laughing in thier faces and telling them to go shove a stick up thier asses cause they deserved for being a bunch of moron's.
I'd like to see how'd they like it if the express tracks were torn away and ALL QB trains were local and instead of all the trains running at their current interval's between trains,make em all run every 30mins!I'll just be laughing in thier faces and telling them to go shove a stick up thier asses cause they deserved it for being a bunch of moron's.
Really V Train. I'd never expect this kind of attitude. I...I'm ashamed!
I've said it before,I have absoultely no sympathy for stupid people,that includes that dolt Busfan.
Remember people:
LOCAL = BAD
EXPRESS = GOOD
This is the mindset of those people.
You *cannot* have an EXPRESS if you do not also have a LOCAL!
Of course the big problem is that too many of the stations are too close together. Each station sould draw people in from about a mile around: they ought to be between 0.5 and 0.8 miles apart, but also need to be located near the major intercetions which in NYC are somewhat closer together than they are out here. (In the west the major roads are on the section lines, ie 1 mile apart.) (And out *here* the PAVED ROADS are about 10 to 20 miles apart!) You want express? Put more OATS in the HORSE!
: ) Elias
Restoring the final field shunt step would also help.
You'd think the people who use local stations would offset the express junkies. But even they gripe about their station not being an express stop.
Well Chris, you might transfer some that advocacy over to the Sea Beach which has been wallowing in the Montague rathole and a dull local since the cows left town. Maybe a little indignation on your part for what the TA has done to my train might get your boys over there to finally show her a little respect.
Don't worry. The Sea Beach's salvation will come soon enough. May not be the N train, but it's comming soon,
Ditto to what you said V Train, people have a GOOD alternative to riding a packed express and if they don't like it TOUGH! Way too many V haters out there of course I'm NOT one of them; I'm pro V :-D!
Frankly I dont see any difference having the Q or V running in QB with E F G R. The bottom line, it just a one subway line that is added to QB Service to reduce overcrowding line. Who care if it a Q or V or express or local. Unlike those people who often complain about how subway run, I dont care if its a Q V X Y P I H or new express service or local service that is now the new QB service. It doesn't matter to me as long as there is a new subway line on the QB. So what if it were the Q (instead of V) that is the new QB line beginning Dec 16, 2001. Does that mean those V haters hate the Q as well? They still gonna bash the Q as they bash the V C'on! Are they gonna say..."Q is the waste of taxpayers money." Eliminate the Q and bring back the G to Full Service." TA should considered Q F Flip-Flop. Okay! Let say, the Q were to replace the V starting 12AM March 5. I guarenteed ALL OF YOU, YOU WIll BE HEAR THIS "I HATE Q" SONG after March 5. C'on. This is a Common Sense! People! Wake up and Smell the Rose
Here is the easy solution. Lets might as well tell the TA Bring back the G to full as it was in 2000 and Q remain unchange and cut the V. Bring the F back the 53rd. Seal off the 63rd Terminal and have Q terminate at 21 St all time. That way everyone will stop this bs complains.
Yeah, and let WHO CARE IF THOSE E RIDER BEING SQUASHED LIKE A PANCAKE IN THE R32.
You should post on the Rider Diaries! I'd like to see their reaction.
You mean on the straphanger Campainge Website?
Yes.
CPCTC! Your request has been made. The topic is "Q vs V! Should Everyone Hate the V?" Now let sit back! and See for ourselve
Yeah, I just saw your thread. It should be interesting. I've been waiting for this kind of opportunity for a long time!
The Straphanger Campainge's pandora Box has just been opened. The Readers Dairies page is about to go up FLAMES.
Yeah, I saw the responses. Did you check out the poster named 'GreatOne?' It seems he provided a good argument. Is it true F service was cut for the V? It seems he makes it a bad situation.
"Is it true F service was cut for the V? It seems he makes it a bad situation."
Straight bullshit. False statement. G service was cut back for the V, but not F service. All subway services are, however, subject to the vagatries of rolling stock assignments, but the R143 arrivals are taking care of that.
I rode the F service plenty of times after the V was introduced. Never had to wait for one.
OOOOOOHHHHH....IM TELLIN MOMMY USE CURSED!!!You in trubble nnow RON.
HEHEHE...LOL
Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!
(Better than Torah Tora, Tora!)
Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!
(Better than Tora Tora, Tora!)
A great Depeche Mode song, BTW! :P
Really? I'm just too confused now. I don't know who to believe.
"G service was cut back for the V, but not F service."
I thought the mix was changed from 18 Fs and 12 Es to 15 Fs and 15 Es.
That is a slight cutback of Fs. Of course, it has no impact on the Culver Line, which never had more than 12 to 14 Fs to begin with.
Where did the extra 1-3 tph turn? Some turned (and still turn) at Kings Highway, but that's still most of the way down the Culver line. I don't think any turned at Church.
"Where did the extra 1-3 tph turn?"
I have no concrete information, but my guess is that the peak F trains coming in from Jamaica did one run and sat somewhere in Brooklyn all day, then returned in the evening. After all, a peak train would arrive in midtown between 8 and 9. By the time it got to Church Ave. or CI, no point sending it back.
OK, so there was a very slight reduction. But there was an increase in E service, and nothing happened that anyone should whine about.
Well actually Ron, F service had its tph reduced slightly to accomodate the V.
Ok then, Ronnie. Here, I manahed to get what this poster said. Here we go:
Poster 'GreatOne' posted on the Rider Diaries in Express M's thread over there:
We need Brooklyn F riders to come in here and protest this entire argument. I said it a million times before and I'll say it a million and one. In order for there to be an existance of a V train, F service had to take a cut. Not just a slight cut either, but a significant cut to allow the V and it's supposed 6 to 10 minute headways to fit in between the F schedule. This means F service in Queens took a cut, but not many people notice a difference since E service has been beefed up to replace the missing F trains in Queens. This means the E has been more crowded though as a result, but it's typical for Queens Blvd. Once again not many people notice that.
F service has been cut on 6th Avenue, but once again not many people notice that on 6th Avenue since they have a choice of both the F and V on the same track meaning the same amount of F service they received before December 2001 they are still receiving in the combination of both the F and V. Not so for those past 2nd Avenue and on to Brooklyn. An observant F rider in Brooklyn will tell you that there is less service which of course there is. I will tell you because I've been riding the F to Brooklyn in the evenings and I seriously notice the difference between now and before 12/01. You used to be able to board an F to Brooklyn during the evening rush. Now it's a battle. Not to mention that in comparison to the morning rush where service is being increased. Service is being decreased during the evening rush. No V in Brooklyn and less F service overall without any other line to help the F on Culver means less Brooklyn F service. This is the argument.
The whole idea that the Q would make more sense is that the Q would help out in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn. Unlike the V which would never go from Queens to Brooklyn unless there was an increase in R-46 rolling stock which won't happen for years. Although there is an increase in R-40M rolling stock in Coney Island which would make sense for a Q to Queens run.
That's the whole thing. Does it hold any validity?
Is it true F service was cut for the V? It seems he makes it a bad situation.
I don't know why he say that. But that wasn't true based on my argument. I meant that if everyone hate the V so much then why they consider to run the Q in QB in place of V. Why they see V different from Q? Just because one run on Broadway and other in 6th Ave. But the 6th Ave and Broadway both have access to 63rd/QB connector. The G was cut back to make room for V. TA have tested the R G F E V run together in QB at same time b4 Dec 16, 2001. The test failed. And Greenpoint people rejected the idea of G have no access to QB 24/7.
The G was cut back not just because lack capacity in QB. But gave Greenpoint folk a sulution.
Oh man, I saw that YOU are just EVIL ;-)!
With post on the riders diaries, you will see a madhouse.
With this post of mines on the riders diaries, you will see a madhouse. HMMM, Let me stir up some things abit over there
Ok, post the results as soon as you get them.
You guys are funny......lol.
You should see the mad faces I put on that dairies. It sure did brought some attention. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
you using the same handle...? gonna go over there now...
LMAO
There was only one really mad face. One presented a good argument; another just displayed mad faces.
Well say The F'N 6 Express is against this whole issues on V and Q thread
The one with the good argument... who are you referring to?
I was referring to Mr GreatOne; he brought up how Brooklyn F service has deteriorated since the V train came about, which was something I neglected to mention when I said that the V train was working fine.
(I was referring to Mr GreatOne; he brought up how Brooklyn F service has deteriorated since the V train came about, which was something I neglected to mention when I said that the V train was working fine.)
Any deterioration of Brooklyn F service is a general management failure and not directly the result of the introduction of the V.
There are (and were) 12-14 northbound Fs from Brooklyn in the AM rush. There were 18 southbound Fs in the rush hour and are now 15 (the other 3 being converted to Es). The reduction in southbound Fs should not have an effect on the consistency of the northbound Fs. By the time the 15 peak Fs get to CI, it is (and always was) too late for them to be any use in the morning rush anyway.
(There might of course, for some reason, be a connection between the V and the deterioration in Brooklyn service, but that's a management issue and not a basic scheduling issue).
I know, when I saw that I was cracking up at the mess Express M caused over there, LOTS OF FLAMES!!!!!
Yeah, I thought it was mighty funny too...
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks to CPCTC for his assistant. Burn Baby Burn!... DESTROY ALL THE STRAPHANGER CAMPAIGNE FANS. HA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA HA HA AH HA HA HA
I hope so. I for one definitely don't want to see the return of the orange Q and Broadway going back to only two services.
I know that people are gonna disagree with me on this one, but I'm still not convinced that the Q can't run as the third Queens Blvd Express, under certain conditions:
1. G (Crosstown Local) and V (Queens Blvd/6th Ave/Culver Local) both run to Church Ave while the F is a Culver Express between Bergen and Church on its way to Coney Island. Church Ave should be able to turn around two lines and you could get away with running 9 F's an hour, because the V would shadow a good portion of the F's route.
2. V runs via the 53rd Street local, so ex-G riders at local stations can still get their G at 23rd St-Ely Av.
3. The D, along with the M (rush hour only), returns as the Brighton Locals. Having a 6th Ave train AND a train that offers direct service to lower Manhattan would offer more options to Brighton riders. You could get away with sending only 9 Q's on the Brighton per hour.
Subway riders (particularly Queens riders) strongly favor express service, they won't go for a Queens Blvd local train that runs through 63rd Street, particularly when the R runs a similar route at 60th Street. If you run 12 E's, 9 F's and 9 Q's on the Queens Blvd express tracks, and have the Q run express all the way to 179 Street, while both the E and F run local east of 71st Ave, this plan could work.
I say replace the E's put in at 179th with a Q specials, that would run express viq 63rd, and those E put ins would instead come out of Continental and run local to Roosevelt and switch over.
This way there would still be some Hillside express for the peak rush hour, plus some no transfer express runs for the local riders between
Continental and Roosevelt who still crowd onto the E at Roosevelt.
Yup, the R is already the QB local and runs via Broadway HOWEVER since the Q is express in Manhattan it may get more riders from the R in Queens possibly causing the Q to get very crowded which turns this plan upside down although it *MAY* be workable. Its way better and less problematic than the Q running express via QB at the expense of cutting E & F service.
The V needs weekend service but weekdays it is fine.
Yes:
1. Only one train on 53rd. St.
2. Excessive service on 63rd. St.
3. The Q will be empty running in Queens, since it bypasses connections to the IRT at Lexington Ave.
These anti-V people are morons.
Yes. The point of the V is to provide direct service between Queens Boulevard local stations and the 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines in Manhattan. Sending a local through 63rd makes arguably even less sense than sending a local down the Crosstown line -- with the G, at least passengers wishing 53rd could take either the G or R to Queens Plaza and transfer to an E or F, but if one of the locals runs through 63rd, not only will local passengers have to transfer, they'll also have to wait twice as long for the local. (I'm assuming the idea is to run the Q as a Queens local and to return the F to 53rd.)
The current service plan gives local passengers direct access to 53rd Street, 60th Street, 6th Avenue, and Broadway, and express passengers direct access to 53rd Street, 63rd Street, 8th Avenue, and 6th Avenue. Crosstown passengers have one-transfer access to 53rd Street, 6th Avenue, 8th Avenue, and Queens locals and expresses. What happens if an extended Q takes the V's place in Queens? Express passengers lose access to 63rd Street (but don't gain anything new in its place). Local passengers gain access to 63rd Street but lose access to 53rd Street and to 6th Avenue. Crosstown passengers lose their transfer to the Queens local. And 6th Avenue loses half its local service.
This idea makes sense only if the world revolves around the Roosevelt-to-53rd bunch.
The V was not instituted in response to the closing of the north side of the MB, and there is no reason to end it after the north ide of the MB reopens.
It has done its job of reducing crowding on the E and F coming in from Queens Blvd. It will continue to do that job once the MB reopens.
If the MTA is flush in money and wants to expand service (ha ha), they could conceivably extend the V to Church Ave. But don't hold your breath for that.
[B]It has done its job of reducing crowding on the E and F coming in from Queens Blvd.[/B]
For some reason, the Straphangers' Campaign doesn't agree with that.
(For some reason, the Straphangers' Campaign doesn't agree with that.)
The reason is that they have a political agenda of consistently trying to demonstrate that the MTA can't get things done right.
If you say "The MTA should have built a super express to relive QB congestion, but this band aid approach is working for the time being" you don't make good sound bites.
For some reason, the Straphangers' Campaign doesn't agree with that.
The Straphangers' Campaign are run by morons with political agendas. They are not a real rider advocacy group. Plus they're wrong/ Bot the E & F are running at under 100% capacity for the first time since WWII.
For some reason, the Straphangers' Campaign doesn't agree with that.
The Straphangers' Campaign are run by morons with political agendas. They are not a real rider advocacy group. Plus they're wrong. Both the E & F are running at under 100% capacity for the first time since WWII.
Ver interesting. It's just so hard what to do and who to believe. I believe the Straphangers' Campaign has done 'studies' if you will. I wonder how they collected information as opposed to the MTA's methods.
Like standing at the SB platform at Broadway-Laffyette and claiming the trains were underutilized?
I can't recall when the last time I heard the Straphangers say something POSITIVE about the MTA was.
[I believe the Straphangers' Campaign has done 'studies' if you will. I wonder how they collected information as opposed to the MTA's methods.]
Collect information? I thought all they did was sabotage service and conduct trials-by-press-conference.
Ooh, yes. I remember them handing out sheets and blurting out about their thoughts on the fare hike.
A lot of the Straphangers' routine statistics are very useful. But in the case of the V train, they were so set to prove their point that they lost objectivity and did a bogus job of it.
You also have the perception thing about local vs. express service. The V is a local (local = bad) so in the minds of many, it is not very useful.
The local vs express issue has been debated here more than once; I think it is pretty obvious that the time saved by an express is minimal; yet by not stopping as often, people think they are going much faster. When I moved to my current residence near the 238 stop of the #1, I would often get off the 1 at 168 to get an train when I was going to work (Columbus Circle Station area). It didn't take me long to figure out that while the 1 makes a lot of stops (even with the time saving skip stop's 1.5 minutes), the time lost getting to the A and then waiting for A, cost me much more time than it saved me.
The V train's current route has no impact on Manhattan Bridge service, current or future. Since the V uses the 6th Ave. local tracks south of 5th/53rd it does not have a straight move into Grand Street and the Manhattan Bridge. Closest crossover is at W 4th. If a crossover were constructed just N of B'way Lafayette between the SB local and express tracks, it would be possible to "marry" the V to a Manhattan Bridge service (there is already an equivalent crossover between the uptown tracks on the opposite side). But then what service would be connected to the V? Maybe the Q - but that really doesn't do anything for the current Q riders. And extending the Q to Queens Blvd local via the BMT and the 63rd St. tunnel simply replaces the V with the Q. And that's no good because service in the 53rd St. tunnel is reduced by 50% to two very heavy stations (5th and Lex on 53rd St).
Probably best to leave the V as is and treat the Manhattan Bridge reroute issue separately. Or even extend some V's to Metropolitan Ave. via the WillyB connector on Chrystie Street and give the Myrtle and Broadway-Brooklyn folks a direct midtown connector they haven't had since 1976, easing the crowded transfer at Essex/Delancey. And just think - the V would begin and end within about three miles of each terminal.
The reopening of the Manny B will provide an opportunity to improve 6th Av line service into Brooklyn. Queens service will remain the same.
Restoring the Bergen interlocking will be the most relevant event to the V train.
Since NYCT has not revealed its proposed service plan, any answers to this question will simply be opinion/conjecture except this one: there is no answer yet.
David
WELL...HOWDY!!! Wondered where you've been.....long time, fella...to your question.... yes the V train is here to stay.Changes are acomin',but it's not goin antwhere...
I'd think this is the best thread to ask this so...
I'd just like to know if anyone has any idea why the Straphangers' Campaign is so anti-V? Are their claims of it being detrimental to E and F service true? Are ridership numbers that low? Is the G really deserving of all of this 'substandard' treatment with 4 cars?
I need to be enlightened. Please Subtalkers, post what you think on this issue and why generally Strappies and Subtalkers are so diametrically opposed on this issue?
I was anti-V at one point, but now I'm in the middle, so to speak. I've seen the V train during the morning rush and it crowded. Not standing-room-only crowding, but crowded to the point that 5-10 seats are empty.
Now I am also beginning to notice fewer riders on the F. In the mornings, I sometimes get trains where I have a seat. By the time we go through 63 St, there are sometimes no one standing when back before 12/16/01 there would ALWAYS be many standees. There are times when I take it in the afternoon that the car I'm in has about 10-20 people in it. A far cry from the usual standing-room-only crowds.
I don't like admitting this too much, but I do think that the V has done its job, though at the expense of G and F riders.
As for the Straphanger's Campaign, their gripe about this is that the V train plan cut off Greenpoint residents and others in Brooklyn from Queens. No longer could people in Greenpoint and other Brooklyn have a one seat ride to areas along Queens Blvd. However, ridership was low (except before 8:40 and after 3:00 because that's when the Brooklyn Tech students would swarm the train and make it into an organized madhouse). Also, the G does get packed in the morning rush, from what I have seen. At the passageway between the Court Sq and 23 St/Ely Av stations, there is just a HUGE mass of people. At other times of the day, I don't know if crowds on the G are that large.
(except before 8:40 and after 3:00 because that's when the Brooklyn Tech students would swarm the train and make it into an organized madhouse).
Ride on the 1/9 from 137 at 3:30 and the C at 2:45 from Euclid and you will see its more than a madhouse.
That's why I included "organized" hehe....The train may get a little rowdy but not to the extent where people kick in cab doors or pull emergency brake (like what one SubTalker described about what happened on a C train some time back)
Hey,
Brooklyn Tech kids (the ones I remember) don't go medieval on trains. Yeah they're a little crazy, but they're not nuts.
A Brooklyn Tech alum.
Well Brooklyn Tech jocks wasn't that bad. But those Public High School kid from marble hill and East New York is diffenitly somethin. They not just kind of kid to find way to tick off conductor and rider anger. They even comit arson at station like throwin lighted cigarette or lighted matches into the trash. Play loud musics with unappropriate lyric on the train or messin with token clerk who doin work inside the booth.
Yayyy!!!!!!
Busfan is back!!
Missed ya, cat!!!
There is a tall building UC at the old LIRR terminal in Brooklyn, on the Ft Greene Place side.
It can't be a new terrminal...nimbys have always kiboshed it, preferring a big hole in the ground..so what could the new building be?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's a mall/office building.
David
(It's a mall/office building.)
Amazed, and glad, to hear that thing is finally under way.
Also, compared with other major capital projects, there seems to be little information about exactly what it is and what it will look like. I know Target is the anchor of the shopping area, which I believe will be connected to the existing shopping by pedestrian bridge. I know BONY is going into the office space.
What about the LIRR terminal? What will it look like, and be like? Any links to drawings, pictures or descriptions?
As far as I know, not too much is going to be done to the LIRR terminal itself, despite all the construction work next door. Which, is far as I'm concerned, is no huge deal; the current terminal is unattrative but perfectly functional.
Are there any pictures online of the current Flatbush terminal? I've never been down that way.
(Are there any pictures online of the current Flatbush terminal? I've never been down that way. )
The current terminal is a hole in the ground, with a could of corrugated steel-covered stairways. UG-Leee.
A new mall and office tower to be occupied by Bank of New York is scheduled to rise over the terminal. I will be getting my digital camera back from my sister this weekend. I will try to head over there this upcoming week and take some pictures.
As far as the rail and subway station. The place looks completly differnt then it did just 3 short years ago
Suppose to be a nice LIRR waiting room to at street level with stairs to the tracks.
(Suppose to be a nice LIRR waiting room to at street level with stairs to the tracks.)
If that's all it is, it's a waste of space. How many people are actually going to be waiting in the waiting room? My guess is none. The location is cut off from the rest of Downtown Brooklyn by heavily trafficked streets. My guess is that almost everyone arrives by subway or perhaps bus, and hustles off to where they are going.
If the development won't take up the whole area, I'd hope that a large multi-purpose indoor space would, one that could be used for gatherings of various sorts. Perhaps it could be the site of Brooklyn's Greemarket. We have a couple here and there, but that would be a great place for people to pick something up on their way home. An ice skating rink is a second possibility.
It's the most accessible point in all of Brooklyn, perhaps anywhere on Long Island. Got to do something with it.
"If that's all it is, it's a waste of space. How many people are actually going to be waiting in the waiting room? My guess is none."
Guess again, Larry. That cramped but air conditioned temporary waiting room is well used. With nothing upstairs, the new terminal building should have a awaiting area and other amenities upstairs.
A new Atlantic Terminal is long overdue, essential to the Times Plaza area rebirth. The old terminal building was a dilapidated eyesore, good riddence.
Bill "Newkirk"
(Guess again, Larry. That cramped but air conditioned temporary waiting room is well used. With nothing upstairs, the new terminal building should have a awaiting area and other amenities upstairs.)
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a waiting hall. I'm saying if there is room for a hall, there should be things in it to make it a destination in itself.
Here are some photos of the subway part of the Flatbush Ave complex from my website: Atlantic/Flatbush Ave.
-Harry
Any chance they might integrate the mall with the terminal A'La Market East in Philly?
(Any chance they might integrate the mall with the terminal A'La Market East in Philly? )
That's the idea. I had assumed the new building would cover the entire terminal. If it won't, they'll have to find something to do with the space.
What about the LIRR terminal? What will it look like, and be like?
I hear that there will be some railroad tracks and platforms down there, It will probably have some lighting and stairways. Perhaps someone will give it a real facelift by sweeping the floor.
beyond this, what is to know: It is a train station.
:^) Elias
As soon as the West Side development plans were announced, nimbys were out in force.
I do sympathize with their concerns about neighborhood disruptions, and I believe a West Side stadium is untenable. But I do like extending the #7 westward along with other facets of the plan. There was once a plan to extend the #7 to the Meadowlands, and I think they should look at it again.
But any extensive neighborhood development plan will most likely be scotched by the little old ladies in tennis shoes (though I applaud the LOLITS for preventing the Mid Manhattan Expressway in Tribeca).
Bloomberg believes, and Giuliani, I suppose, believes that people will take mass transit to any new West Side stadium. I disagree...if you drive, you'll want to avoid the crowds, noise etc in the comfort of your, er, 8 mile to the gallon SUV. Where would the cars go? They'd clog 10th, 11th and the diMag Pkway as well as 31st-34th Street.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Any information is greatly appreciated.
No one knows.
You may get lots of speculation in reply, or arguments as to what OUGHT to happen, but you won't get the actual answer.
"No one knows."
Not entirely true! There have been some high-level meetings about this very subject. I know for sure that the D will return to its former self. I here that the B will, as well. I have not yet heard about the Q or W. My guess - Q stays on B'Way and the W heads for the history books. More to come.
(I know for sure that the D will return to its former self. I hear that the B will, as well. I have not yet heard about the Q or W. My guess - Q stays on B'Way and the W heads for the history books. More to come.)
I hope they will take balanced loading on the bridge into account. To achieve this, you make the Q local the full time service on the Brighton, and the B the full time service to 205th on the Concourse.
When the D express runs (it would always be express, Bedford Park to Brighton Beach, thus eliminating a source of confusion) the Sea Beach would run via bridge also; two services would be on each side of the bridge. Nights and weekends, the Sea Beach would run via tunnel, and both the B and Q would stop at DeKalb for transfers.
The only question, in my mind, is whether to keep a Nassau Street service or just add trains to the other five lines. But the B, D, N and Q should all run express, direct to Midtown, on weekdays.
Perhaps that might be the purpose of the B/D switch floating around. (Making the B the Brighton express and sending the D to West End). That's basically the same thing you suggested, only switching the letters so that the north end pattern is the same as now, instead of the south end going back to what it was.
So as David always says, it is still up in the air, and they are simulating various patterns on computer. (I came into the TA hoping to someday get into that office and do stuff like that!)
Ah my friend, you didn't mention the one train that I am frothing at the mouth over. What about the Sea Beach? Come on Dude, do what you can to get my train out of that damn Montague rathole.
Patience, Fred. Patience. I want to see the N on the bridge, too.
Here we go again with the N on the Montague Rathole.
Steve,
I think you are on the money about the W. I recall that when the entire Manhattan bridge re-routing (and the introduction of the V train) was being planned, the MTA held public hearing on the introduction of the V as that was a "permenant" change. If I recall correctly, they did not hold hearings on the W, as that was deemed a "temporary" change due to the Manhattan bridge work.
Now I'm sure if the W is found to be providing a needed service, they most certainly could keep it, but I think this gives some insight into the original plan as it was developed prior to July 2001.
As long as there are more than two lines running on Broadway on the weekends and at least two Broadway lines terminating at Stillwell Ave, then I will be satisfied.
Oh lord, he's back at it again! Busfan, instead of asking SO MANY questions, why don't you contribute something *FOR ONCE*!?! I see you want to learn more knowledge in the buses and subways but at least make ONE post that isn't a question.
Sorry not to be inconsiderate, but I've done too many posts on subjects in relation to the Manny-B come 2004.
Does anyone know what is the status of the restoration of BMT Standards 2390-91-92 at the Coney Island shops? Heard a terrible rumour that all work on the ABs has ceased and has shifted to other museum cars. What a shame this would be if true. The D-types are in reasonable running and physical shape, ditto for the Lo-Vs. As for the R9s, they are not that bad and there are at least 10 of them on the property.
The ABs are a different matter altogether; There are only 4 on the property, one of which is for display only and can never be made to run again. With Stillwell Terminal being completely rebuilt, wouldn't it be just great to see the cars that took so many millions there be ready to run for the re-opening of the terminal?
Hot Lunch!
Three was a previous post that 2390-91-92 are coming along nicely. As for the R-1/9s, only a few of them are operable and even those need work. I'd love to see a train of operable R-1/9s again and might even be swayed to fly into the city if a fantrip were to be organized. Of course, I'd also love to ride on the Triplexes someday.
Steve
Thanks for the post, you WILL someday enjoy riding the D-types, they are great to ride and have brake sounds just like the R9s.
BTW, I know the ABs WERE coming along fine, but recently the work according to one of my friends has stopped completely.
Hot Lunch!
I think right now, given that 2004 is right around the corner, any efforts should be towards getting some old IRT gear operable if at all possible. There's plenty of years down the road more fitting for BMT gear and IND gear and y'all know I'm a B division type with this blasphemy of letting A division have its (deserved) spotlight. :)
The problem is that if you don't use the centennial year for the entire subway you'll never see any celebrations for the BMT and IND. Readers of this board might be able to suggest good dates to celebrate for the BMT and IND but for the average New Yorker, it's "the first subway" that's going to get the attention. The other lines are just add-ons...
GOOD point there ... still, kinda sad to hear that there isn't a consist of antique IRT cars available to ferry souls somewhere for the event. And as long as our Unca Dougie continues to draw a breath, you can count on there being a Malbone "celebration" in 2018. :-\
"still, kinda sad to hear that there isn't a consist of antique IRT cars available to ferry souls somewhere for the event."
There is are the Low-V's, which are antique enough. Unlike the arnines that haven't turned a wheel on their own power in years, the Low-V's have somewhat recently. The Low-V's don't need a ground up restoration, just some repair work. They are sidelined awaiting repairs, so that shouldn't be so hard. Don't forget they were rebuilt for the Diamond Jubilee in 1979, so they really haven't had time to rot. Also if four Low-V's aren't enough, just tack on Low-V trailer #4902 and off we go ! It's really a no brainer, but not doing something to mark 100 years of New york's first subway is really no brains !
Bill "Newkirk"
25 years is a long time for salt spray to take its toll ... sure would be nice to be able to ride a set of LoV's. Then again, you've waved the legendary plug of butt in my face, so you know where my OWN loyalties are. But I've been hearing that there aren't plans for the LoV's to roll in 2004, at least not with passengers if they do at all. Hearing that (true or not) is a bit disappointing.
"But I've been hearing that there aren't plans for the LoV's to roll in 2004, at least not with passengers if they do at all. Hearing that (true or not) is a bit disappointing."
Party poopers ! For the Diamond Jubillee, the Low-V's were overhauled and painted. They ran in revenue service on the #4 from Burnside Ave to Grand Central and maybe Brooklyn Bridge. I rode that train with stunned passengers. Yes, we ran express from Burnside for the icing on the cake.
The TA even had a Diamond Jubilee token too. A centennial is more of an important benchmark than a 75th Anniversary. Seems the TA isn't in a celebrating mood, PARTY POOPERS !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe reality will change in time, but the whole state is in need of puppy uppers and doggie downers this year. I find it unimaginable too. So much for "getting on with our lives." :(
I SURE DO HOPE I'm wrong though ...
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Around 100, give or take.
If anyone has the R46 electronic desination signs that were updated in the Fall 2001 for the E,F,G,R,V & Grand St Shuttle ONLY & the R142 electronic desination signs, please post them.
I don't have a complete listing, but here are some of them...
F AVENUE X
F 63 ST/6 AV LCL
F CULVER LCL
F JAMAICA/179 ST
F 6 AV/63 ST LCL
F QUEENS BL EXP
F JAMAICA/179 ST
F 6 AV LCL
F via 63 ST
F KINGS HWY
F 63 ST/6 AV LCL
F CULVER LCL
R BAY RIDGE
R 95 ST
R BROADWAY LCL
R WHITEHALL ST
R BROADWAY LCL
R BAY RIDGE/95 ST *
V LOWER E. SIDE
V 2 AV
V via 53 ST
V 6 AV LCL
V FOREST HILLS
V 71 AV
V via 53 ST
V QUEENS BL LCL
G SMITH-9 STS
G CROSSTOWN LCL
G LONG IS. CITY
G COURT SQ
G CROSSTOWN LCL
S GRAND ST
S SHUTTLE
S SHUTTLE
*I saw one 4 car set of R46s with this reading, but I think the signs were glitched (on the inside, the signs read "LAST STOP").
I also saw a sign reading for the late night shuttle to 36 St (before it was extended to Pacific) but I can't recall what it said.
There are a whole bunch of other readings, but I either can't recall them now or I have yet to see them.
For the shuttle readings, I think that's what they read. I've been on some that just read "shuttle" while others had mentions of "Grand St."
I'll cut some typing for you. The LCD's on the R46 also have readings for the F that read CULVER EXP but I think it was for Stillwell Av and Kings Highway only. Then you have other possible terminals and some more possible readings for the F and it goes like this [do R46 LCD's have special on them?]:
F KINGS HIGHWAY
F CULVER EXP
F CONEY ISLAND
F 6 AV LOCAL
F CULVER EXP
F CHURCH AV
F SHUTTLE
F 179 ST JAMAICA
F QUEENS BLVD LCL
F 6 AV LOCAL
As for the asterisk on BAY RIDGE/95 ST; that's NOT a glitch I've seen that quite a few times on R trains; in fact I've seen that more often than shown above.
I wonder why they didn't update for the (A) also. I mean, I know the route hasn't changed, but neither has that for the (E) or (R). I just wonder why it's not given the new "format".
:-) Andrew
Maybe the A program was updated on the R-46's. It would be hard to tell under normal circumstances, since the R-46's don't normally run on the A.
The R-44's didn't get any sign updates.
The R46s were to go through 63 St (F service and possible reroutes), thus the signs were changed, since the old sign readings didn't have any mention of 63 St. R44s don't go through 63 St, thus I guess there was no need to update signs.
Are you sure? I think the old readings had the 63rd Street references. Remember that for about a year before the full opening, there had been weekend service through 63rd, usually on the F or the R.
The onld signs made no refernece to 52, 60, or 63rd Streets.
Old signs:
1: E -- WORLD TRADE CTR -- 8 AV LOCAL
7: F -- KINGS HIGHWAY -- 6 AV/CULVER LCL
27: R -- to 95ST/BKLYN -- BROADWAY LOCAL
New:
1: E -- WORLD TRADE CTR -- 8 AV LCL -- via 53 ST
7: F -- KINGS HWY -- 6 AV LCL
1153: F -- KINGS HWY -- 6 AV/63 ST LCL
27: R -- BAY RIDGE -- 95 ST -- BROADWAY LCL
1159: R -- BAY RIDGE -- 95 ST -- via 60 ST -- BROADWAY LCL
Thanks.
But why did LCL become LOCAL, even when the full word would fit? (I don't like gratuitous abbreviations.) And does anyone else find the V signage a bit confusing? Shortly after the V started running, I was standing at 53/Lex about to board one when a woman asked me if it ran on 6th Avenue or on 2nd Avenue.
I don't like the abbreviations either, and its especially annoying to see "2 AV" and "8 AV LCL" with the rest of the display blank. But I'm guessing it has to do with the number of English impared in NYC. (Avenue in English, Avenida (sic) in Spanish, both abbreviate to AV).
Also, I agree, why they left out "TO" I'll never know. Fortunately when I was still out there and working the F the old signs weren't reprogrammed completely so that code 7 would show "to CONEY ISLAND" with the rest of the displays (6 AV LCL) being the new ones.
I think all the wanted to do was to have the displays centered, much like the signs on the R68/R68A cars.
I don't know why "Bay Ridge" and "95 St" require two displays when they can both be displayed as "Bay Ridge/95 St"
By the way, before F trains began terminating at Avenue X, the Coney Island readings on R46 F trains said "Coney Island", not "to Coney Island." Looks like someone finally went through trouble to reprogram that reading to get rid of "to."
Sick passenger on R train forced Queensbound local trains to run express from Roosevelt to 71 Av. We stop on express track and passengers are let off. There is another train (R46) across the platform, don't remember if it was a V or R that had this on the signs... (and I don't know why this was even on the signs)
B SHUTTLE
B to 36 ST/BKLYN
I'm guessing the routes for the B (at least its late night service pre 7/22/01) weren't changed when the R46 signs were reprogrammed.
Or they just didn't take that one out.
Any pre-12/16/01 service related signs not affected by the Queens Blvd swap did not have their signs changed or removed.
By the way, before F trains began terminating at Avenue X, the Coney Island readings on R46 F trains said "Coney Island", not "to Coney Island." Looks like someone finally went through trouble to reprogram that reading to get rid of "to."
If you used 1153 (IIRC) you're right, "to" is gone. But if you use code 7 (although for some reason not on all R46s) you can still find "to CONERY ISLAND".
The signs for the A on R46s were not updated. Only necessary routes were changed.
Also, the older miscellanous signs were removed. The following can still be found on an R44 but removed from the newly programmed R46s (note that some R46s still retain the old signs):
A -- to FAR ROCKAWAY -- viaDELANCY ST
A -- toLEFFERTS BLVD -- viaDELANCY ST
F -- to CONEY ISLAND -- viaBWAY-NASSAU
and so on...
Why were they removed? I think they'd come in handy from time to time. I've seen "F via 8 AV" occasionally when the F runs via Cranberry, but "via BWAY-NASSAU" would be more accurate.
I don't know. Personally I think "VIA A LINE" would have been better. "viaBWAY-NASSAU" gives me the impression that's the only stop its going to make along the way.
VIA C LINE would be even better -- when the F runs via Cranberry, it stops at Spring. But for some reason the service advisories always refer to the A, not the C (or both).
Too bad the general public wouldn't understand VIA CRANBERRY TUBE.
They did update the R46 destination signs for the E and R, EXCEPT for cars 5902 and 5903.
Link from MSNBC: Gunmen Make Daring Robbery At Subway Station
Dont the revenue collectors have guns?
When I've seen revenue collectors come around on the money cars at night, they did have guns. Very big ones at that.
Dont the revenue collectors have guns?
They do. Presumably, however, the robbers pulled their guns first, and then there wasn't much the revenue collectors could have done.
Isn't it their job to remain alert when money is being transferred?
Nobody said that the employees who were robbed were Revenue Agents.
It could have been some station agent pulling his wheels.
Elias
There is always the possibility it is an "inside job."
If this becomes a habit, revenue collectors should be trailed discretely by a plainclothes agent. If a robbery occurs, the plainclothes agent can open fire on the armed gunmen.
But you have to temper the response to the situation: you want to avoid gunplay until the suspects are in an area where innocent people are less likely to be hurt.
This robbery was a stupid move. An arrest ismore likely here, eventually, than a street or liquor-store holdup.
What are the differences between the R142 (Bombardier) and the R142A (Kawasaki). I noticed that when they start moving, they make slightly different sounds.
The trucks are very different. One has a new type of design that allows more movement of the axels than the standard type of truck. I think the Kawasakis have it, but I'm not sure.
The Bombardier R-142s have radial trucks that allow each axle to move up and down (suspension) as well as allowing them to twist (one wheel moves forwards and the other backwards), the ultimate effect being that the angle between the wheels and the tracks can be closer to the optimal 90 degrees for much longer on curves, reducing noise and wear. The Kawasaki R-142-As do not have this feature.
R-142 radial truck:
The cars also have many cosmetic differences both inside and out. A brief overview:
The electronic destination signs: On the R-142s the route number is given by an LED display (like the front route sign) whereas on the R-142-A the same display is LCD (like the rest of the side display).
R-142:
R-142A:
The interior electronic destination signs: The R-142s have smaller, darker displays that blank momentarily between messages. The R-142As have larger, brighter displays that are on continuously (no blank period between different messages).
The ceiling grab-bar: On the R-142 this is attached to the ceiling using large clamp-like brackets. On the R-142A the bar is welded to the supports seamlessly.
R-142:
R-142A:
Outside carbody: The most noticeable difference here is the "character line" running down the side of the car at about waist-level. On the R-142 this is a junction between two panels, one at a different level than the other. On the R-142A it is a raised strip of metal.
R-142: Look just above the red markings on the side of the car.
R-142A: Look just below the MTA label.
These are only a few, but they're significant enough to allow you to reliably tell the cars apart.
Dan
Kawasaki has seemed to opted to build a more solid car. I just noticed the waist line differences. But that holds true for the front as well where the Kawasaki has less cuts and joints. There's also an extra line under the roof of the Kawasaki. But I'm not sure if that's a joint or bump. Also, notice the window installations. Kawasaki has the frame dipping in while the Bombardier has just the screws attatched to the body.
Also, the handles on the doors that connect the train cars are different on the R142 and R142A.
Nice nose-pick shot in the second photo! :-)
Nice pictures,
They also sound a little different. I always thought that when leaving a station the Bombardiers sounds a lot like a messed-up violin playing three different distinct notes. The Kawasakis leaving the station doesn't quite remind me of a violin.
*Sigh* Again, those sounds are from the conversion from DC to AC power that the trains create. Of course, there is no real difference between the 2, just another identifying element.
R-32.
R-32.
Also, the curved ceiling space between the light and the AC vents is bigger on the Kawasakis. Almost big enough to be a second ad space (about an inch or so too marrow). Though in the picture, it is not as obvious.
The cab door on the Bombardiers is indented a bit.
Also, the #4 on the Bombardier is not LED's, but rather the same LCD as the rest of the sign, but using dot shaped pixels about the same size and shape as LED's instead of the geodesic design usd on the others. So the image is created the same way as with LED's, but the color and intensity of it is nothing like the amber LED's used on the 143's.
They should put pictures of the differences like this on the site.
WOW! Good way to compare the differences, Dan! The photos really help explain things. -Nick
Thanks a lot. Being a daily 6 rider and a frequent 2 rider I've figured out almost all of the cosmetic differences and have been itching to post them for a while now.
Acutally...Dave, if you'd like I'd be happy to try and write up a more exhaustive comparison for the site, if you'll host it.
Dan
You are most welcome! I'm sure Dave would love for you to put a comparison between the two for the website, it would answer lots of questions. Who knows, maybe you can start a trend; people have asked about the differences between the R62 and R62A, the R44 and R46, and the R32 and R38.
By the way, have you run into Mayor Bloomberg on the #6 yet? Apparently he takes it to work everyday. -Nick
It'd probably be easy since he has his guards with him at all times.
They had a picture of him in last week's Washington Post on the 6, I didn't see much security detail in the picture.
Well, I'd always assume he's had his guards around him. They are cleary shown on any news reports. You see him talking to the press with his goons behind him. I seriously doubt seeing him alone with ANY presence.
- The vertical hand-grabs around the cab door are of different shapes
- The modular appearing a/c units in the roof. On the Bom's they leave a small gap between it and the rest of the roof; looking like it could be lifted out at any moment. The Kawasaki's, on the other hand seem to be flush with the rest of the roof with no clearance; looks like it's solid, though I doubt this is the case.
- As you eluded to with the windows, the doors are the same way; the window frames have excellent quality welds - smooth and flush. Whereas the Bom's have the frame in two pieces with a big snap-ring with a diagonal seam.
- I think the cabs are different too.
R-32.
Well, it has to do with the conversion from DC to AC power, or the draw of current from the 3rd rail if you prefer. Both the R142 and R142A have differwent way of doing so, and this results from the R142's 'Tri-Tone' and the R142A's 'IEEEE.'
I thought ALL AC powered trains had the three tone acceleration. Are the 142As really a single tone?
Did I ever said that?....no.
When I said 'IEEEE,' I meant an ascension of a note or 2 rising in scale. It's very distinctive.
The Kawasaki cars have a 3 tone takeoff also. You just don't hear the other tones until higher speed.
Well, it's a bit hard when you try to ignore the hustly and bustle of the passengers. :)
You know you are right but you can also notice when it is slowing down. I like the sound on the R142. it makes me smile. I am not crazy.
AMI
R-32.
Rob,
The R-142A trains sound exactly like the CQ-312 MARTA trains.
Cool, that's my favortie train noise, ever.
R-32.
R-32.
Very interesting! Thanks!
Very interesting! Thanks!
R-32.
R142A trucks are a conventional design that does not articulate.
R142 trucks aritculate and have a very low noise level.
R142 suspension is an exposed venting Firestone airbag, complete with conventional shocks, and yaw dampers
R142A suspention is of the non venting type, and I do not believe has yaw dampers, but has a fairly limited range of motion. R142A's have springs as the primary suspension, and the Lord-Sumitomo airbags as secondary suspension.
Brake shoes are mounted horizontally on the R142A, and vertically on the R142.
It's time for these damn boats to take a different route. These boats pass thru, having the bridge open 20 minutes at a time holding up service in the Rockaways. Something must be done.
Look at a map sometime... there is no way for boats to "take another route". Such is the nature of a Peninsula vs an Island... there is only one way in/out.
Rockaway isn't an island.
[These boats pass thru, having the bridge open 20 minutes at a time holding up service in the Rockaways.]
One time, several years ago, a couple of boaters kept changing their minds, going back and forth and forcing the bridge to remain open for several HOURS - during a G.O.!! The Euclid-to-Howard-Beach shuttle buses were diverted to Beach 90th Street, which thinned out the Lefferts Blvd headways and annoyed everybody.
New York ought to learn something here about how to handle boaters. Chicago, with the river running right through the downtown area with numerous draw bridges (including 2 carrying L trains), would be hopelessly tied up in knots if they allowed boaters to request bridge openings at will. Instead, bridge openings are pre-scheduled. The bridges don't even have permanent staffs. During the season, convoys of recreational boats (mostly sailboats, other recreational boats can fit through the with bridges down) go through the river at mid-day (usually Wednesdays and Sundays), with bridge crews moving from bridge to bridge to open the bridges for them. Most commercial boats (tour boats, and barges with their tow boats) can fit through without the bridges opening. For the occasional oversize cargo vessel, special arrangements are made in advance for the bridge crews to be made available, never during rush hours (genarally they go through between 10 AM and 3 PM if it's a weekday).
-- Ed Sachs
Look at any crossing of the East or Harlem Rivers, all bridges require 24 hour notice for opening.
The problem is not the city but the Coast Guard who is the one that classifies the bridges and how they are to be staffed and how the waterway is classified. Same problem up in the bronx on a bridge that hasn't opened in 20 years. The city wanted to rebuild it as non-opening bridge but the coast guard refused to reclassify the waterway as non-navigable hence the billions to rebuild it as a draw bridge.
The city can't say the Broad Channel bridge will only open with prior notice if the Coast Guard won't allow it and change all the maps.
Which bridge in the Bronx? Willis Ave?
Same problem down here on the Jersey Shore... there's a pair of draw spans in Neptune (one on Route 35, one on the NJCL) that spend more time up than down during the summer. The highway department is now building a high-rise bridge and the Coast Guard has agreed that, once the high-rise highway bridge is complete, boats will have to yield to the trains, although a bridge tender will continue to be stationed there 24x7.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i thought the bridges on the jersey shore where on a fixed time table. only opening once a hour. also the rail bridges where left up unless a train was due.
Wish they were... but no, that's not the case. The RR bridge at that location is usually left up during the summer months unless a train is due, but invariably some party boat will want to go in or out right when the train's coming, and so the train would be forced to wait. The problem isn't as bad now that the new highway bridge is under construction; a lot of the boat movements were deliberately timed to keep the highway disrupted so that the state would be forced to build the new bridge. Now that construction is well underway, the boaters know they've won and they don't need to be as obnoxious about it.
Oh, and I called it Neptune earlier... it's really the Belmar bridge, just south of Neptune.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And, what bridge in the Bronx will cost Billions (not millions?) to build as a drawbridge.
>>> One time, several years ago, a couple of boaters kept changing their minds, going back and forth and forcing the bridge to remain open for several HOURS <<<
Were they changing their minds or tacking against a current?
Tom
Can someone who works for the TA tell me what department collects the
empty MetroCards that people put in the boxes below the machines that
check the remaining money on the cards?
I want to recycle the cards into some cool new products for my line!
Subway grrl
They usually end up on the floor.
Last week I think I inadvertantly knocked off the bottom of a box. I slipped a MetroCard through the slot and a few dozen cards promptly landed on my foot.
""U"".........!............!!!
would think the los angeles mta KNOWING THE ANTI WAR PROTESTERS
were going to march in the hollywood areas and throughout the
city of LOST ANGELES ( los angeles )
would have made some adjustments to acc the HUGE CROWDS OF PROTESTERS
against the peoples of iraq ( & not thier head of state )
not anti anything except anti war, BUSH ...........!!
the marchers / protesters could no een use the
"" LOS ANGELES RED LINE HE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE ""...........lol!!
..............lol!!
man you should have seen the huge crowds here unable to ride the
rail systems here hroughout the system
i would not be suprised if the la mta neglected the ticket systems
deleberately to make it as hard as possible to try to shut down
the protesters here .....
great live coverage here on pacifica radio here on this subject
( wbai in nyc wpfw wash . d.c. kpft texas kpfa san francisco )
bet the same was in in the bay area too !!!!!!!
.....sorry one spelling mistake ........red line blue and green lines
overloaded union station packed with protesters on thier way to
many different locations in los angeles
ticket machines all breaking down not giving out tickets !!
>>> union station packed with protesters on thier way to many different locations in los angeles ticket machines all breaking down not giving out tickets <<<
Some would see a government conspiracy.
Tom
yep .......lol
anti war protesters .........i support them big time !!
HUGE CROWDS vs the LOS ANGELES METROPOLITAN
TRANSIT AUTHORITY
= " they aint' ready to acc. the LARGE TURNOUT "" !!!!!!!!
........... a deliberate NEGLECT to plan for this !!!!!!!!!
my complimnets to NYC area metro north 4 getting it right on !!
they did THE RIGHT THING !!!! remember ?
Salaam,
You know we agree on many topics and I have supported you often here on the board. I think this a very touchy subject and I really don't think any government agencies are out to sabotage people's right to express their views.
Yet, the matter at the heart of your post really isn't off topic. As we saw yesterday in the newspaper stories (and have lived with) about the threat to our subway system (and maybe other systems in North America and Britian), the goings on at the UN and the Middle East have a profound effect on our beloved subway. Which is why I (a proud and sincere liberal) support President Bush in this matter. Our subway system is extremly vunerable to any number of types of terror attacks and we are basically defenseless to prevent even a ragtag group of hate filled monsters from reeking untold horror and suffering on thousands if not millions of regular, average, law abiding citizens.
So, I support the right of my brothers and sisters on the left to express their views, but I really think we need to disarm Iraq and do it soon. I can absolutely see Sadaam giving some of his WMDs to terrorists; they would love to see innocent Americans and Brits suffering and dying.
Well put, Bill. I know our views diverge more often than they converge, but you're absolutely right on this one, and you've expressed it better than I could have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HOLD ON !!
even though i agree with the anti - war protest world wide
remember the reason why i posted was because of what we beleive
**************************
DELEBRATE NEGLECT OF THE MTA - LA - TICKET MACHINES
not having the rolling stock
totally breaking down
stranding the riding public which never should ever happen !!
and in the entire system this happens
( ON TOPIC )
@ hope this clears this up ....nice riding the D Tyes with you!
maybe in 2004 ??...................lol ~!!
I would have not posted on this except how the rail system here
failed the riding public !!
What kind of ticket system does LA MTA have ? Fare cards with magnetic stripes you swipe or dip ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> What kind of ticket system does LA MTA have ? Fare cards with magnetic stripes you swipe or dip ? <<<
Ticket dispensing machines accepting coins and dollar bills, dispensing a time stamped ticket. This is a POP system without turnstiles.
Tom
a ticket dispenser machine """ if you dont have a ticket """
big fime $ 250oo & or a big jail sentance ........
what do you do if you dont have a monthly bus pass or a ticket 2 ride?
and what do you do if the machine breaks down ?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................................!
actually, BART has announced they will put on extra and longer trains TOMORROW for the anti'war march which is set for Sunday in order not to conflict with the Chinese New Year parade TODAY. If this is anything like the recent one, they will be overwhelmed by riders and many station agents will simply open the faregates making the ride free.
Yea...........see!! ..........they did the right thing but here
they wanted the anti-war-protesters 2 go away and dissapear !!
totally insane 4 sure .........lol
did anyone see this in person and how did the rail system handle
the HUGE turnout ?
thankz if you have any info ............!
Don't forget, 100s of thousands of people is nothing special for the NYC subways. There's New Years Eve in Times Square, huge concerts in Central Park, etc.
right U make my point they are prepaired for this 24 / 7
the system is built 2 handle this .........
TV reports trains skipping 51st/53rd/Lex. That's pretty standard procedure. Don't let people off in the thick of the crowd, or there's a danger that they'll back up and overload the platform.
For Fridays PM rush, the J line had 3 solid trains of R40M's with one pair (4540/41) on another consist mixed with 6 R42's. The solid trains were: N4535/34, 4539/38, 4530/31, 4533/32S.....N4523/22, 4525/24, 4527/26, 4521/20S.....N4547/46, 4544/45, 4542/43, 4537/36. N=facing Jamaica Center and S=facing Broad St. Recaping, 26 of the remaining 30 ENY R40M's were spotted. The only 2 sets not seen were 4528/29 and 4548/49.
Can anybody get the R46 and R143 Diagrams? I need them for a Subway Model. Thanks!!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
if you wanted to see city hall station, couldn't you just stay on the 6 train after brooklyn bridge station and see it through the window as it's turning around through the station? do they really check the train at brooklyn bridge before they go through the loop, and kick you off if you tried to do that?
1. Yes
2. No. I just did it. No problem. To be 100% sure no one will bother you, do it at rush hour and avoid the 1st, 5th, or 6th car.
They empty the train because 1) they are supposed to, and 2) because they assume that you did not know that this was the last stop and that this train is going back where it came from, and that you did not want to do this.
If they ask, you only need ask in return if you may ride through the City Hall station, because you wanted to see it. USUALLY they will let you as it is considered part of the mainline trackage and as such open to the public.
It will be on the starboard side of the train.
Elias
Yeah, you probably can go through without askng anyone. But you are better off asking the attendant by the tunnel entrance (which leads to Old City Hall Station). I've asked permission a few times, and they've always said yes. They shouldn't say no anyways, because Old City Hall Station is a National Landmark.
I don't know if there are any R62As left on the #6, and whether or not you get the railfan-window view as it turns around. I haven't gone thru the loop since the redbirds were on this line, when you could always get a much better view. -Nick
I rode an R142 on this line. The T/O must keep his door closed enroute, but he opened it to check the car before running the loop, and found me standing there (as I had been from Pelham Bay Park) anyway he said I could stay aboard, and he left the door open through the loop. Then I left the train and took the (J) out to Jamaica.
Elias
PS: the view from the 142s is not that bad, a little distorted, yes, but you can see where you are going, and it does make a nice etherial picture, as if on a foggy or rainy day. Plays some interesting tricks with the signals and the reflections off of the tracks too.
ET
I don't know if you really want to try it now. They had the National Guard checking the trains out today.
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1. Before the Cross Bronx was built, how far west did 177th Street go past West Farms(not counting the small section from Jerome Avenue to Grand Councourse)?
2. Is the street still called E 177 St in Throg's Neck, or is it a service road there as well?
3. what was the street on the other side of the Cross Bronx originally called (or what other street did the Cross Bronx overlay in Parkchester, was it 176th Street or something else)?
4. Was 177th Street on the westbound, or the eastbound side of the Cross Bronx?
I remember, a week or three after 9/11 terrorist attack, I wanted to get my feet on the ground, or something. So I drove to Hicksville, took a train to Jamaica, caught the Q44 up to the last stop in the Bronx. Then I basically walked parallel to the Cross Bronx Expwy over to the GWB. Love those streets that end in stairwells. Only in the Bronx. Walked past that Grand Concourse subway station that's elevated over a street. What is that, 177th Street? Weird. The Bronx was in a state of shock, that's all I can tell you. The whole walk, nobody gave me a second look. And it did me good to travel through the city like this. Walked over the bridge....shocking to look down the river from the bridge and see the Towers gone... Headed south, down Palisades Avenue into Hoboken. This part of Jersey, uh, Union City? ...sorry, Jerseyites, looks like it wants to be Brooklyn, but it's not there yet. But I appreciated the urban scale of the place. Got to Hoboken. Took a ferry to the Wall Street Pier.
It was nightime. The view from the boat of lower Manhattan, with smoke still rising....unreal. Like something out of a nightmare. I wandered in the canyons, found a train headed down to Flatbush Terminal. I just didn't want to travel north of Chambers Street that day.
Love those streets that end in stairwells. Only in the Bronx.
Manhattan also has a few step streets.
(What a long walk you took!)
Nice shot. I should have said, "streets that change into stairs, then continue up/down the stairs and thence, blithely, continue on as streets." Mr. A Square from Flatland might have been bemused about it.
I love those types of walks. New York is so dense, and is more or less aligned with the classic grid pattern. This makes for great strolls. Boro to boro, state to state. I basically circled the city on foot. As an aside, the transport dynamics were pretty cool too. I drove, took a commuter train, rode a bus over a bridge, walked to another bridge, walked across a river into another state, crossed (I think) three counties in NJ, crossed back into NYS via ferryboat, walked to a subway, rode underground under another river to a railroad terminal, took a high-speed underground/elevated/street level commuter train to a major railroad junction, and made a cross platform transfer to a suburban express train to major suburban railroad junction.
....didn't mean to run on like that....
I've done similar walks in NJ, Staten Island, Westchester. I once hitched over the Outerbridge (sp) to, shoot, I forget the name of the town over there...well, somewhere near rt 1 & 9,(Old Town?) and walked to Princeton Junction. That was something too. In one area, to the south was the NJ Turnpike in the distance. To the north was the NEC. The immediate area was filled, just filled with huge anonymous square industrial buildings. There was the hum of industry in the air. Not to be pedantic but I had a real sense of being acutely aware of the presence of the nearby trunklines of civilization. It was that bare, out there. There was literally nothing else. Of course, it was nightime. (You get the best effects that way...:>)
That walk took all day, from around noon to ten oclock at night. And at the end of it, it started raining. My soggy butt was happy to see the big P.J. station. I took an anonymous NJT "clocker" back up to Penn Station.
Yeah, I recommend people take walks like that. It just gives you a better appreciation of the landscape we scurry over.
I tried several times to walk the length of Manhattan.
I finally succeeded two years ago, I started in the Bronx.
I've been looking for another long walk to do. Manhattan was cool because it's long and narrow. I don't really see as much fun in walking across another borough.
I've done the Manhattan walk and biked it a few times since I grew up in Washington Heights and worked at 1 Liberty Plaza...Very Therapeutic for me. IIRC those stairs are around Isham Street or 212th Street going from B'way to Indian Rd?
215th at Broadway.
There's another set on 187th, I think, connecting Bennett to Overlook.
There's a third running north from 181st, but I forget the name of the street. (I could look at a map, but I'm lazy.)
Those are the only three I can think of in Manhattan. There probably are a few more.
Yep -- you got the two staircases which I thought of.
Here's a view looking down the 187th street steps. The photo was taken standing on Fort Washington Ave looking east. The street stretching into the distance away from the steps is 187th; the cross street at the base of the stairway is Overlook Terrace.
And here are the stairs which comprise Pinehurst on the north side of 181st St. At the top of the stairs, Pinehurst continues on as a normal street. The photo was taken standing while on 181st looking north.
Thanks for the corrections and the photos. I'm surprised you don't know of any others.
Wait! Isn't there one near Morris-Jumel Mansion? Or am I confusing it with that street of marvelous rowhouses?
You're right -- there is a stairway running from St Nick up to this cobblestone street (Sylvan Terrace):
It's impossible to see, but the stairway to St Nick begins at the end of the street on the lower left hand corner of the photo. St Nick itself is about six -- seven feet below the level of the cobblestones, and runs perpendicular to Sylvan Terrace. The (dark) apartment building visible in the photo fronts St Nick.
Another interesting photo. If it wasn't in color, and you would cover the buildings in the back, I would almost think that photo could have been taken at the turn of the century. Ooops, also have to remove the air conditioner from the first building on the right....
Wow, this kind of stuff is just as interesting as the subway photos.
Years back I took photos of this kind of thing when I was in San Francisco, never even thinking that we had this right here in New York. Now all we need is some cable car routes.......
We've got those too.
Well, almost... those are conduit lines, where the electric current is carried by a cable in a conduit rather than overhead wire. TARS 629 (at Branford) and 631 (at Seashore) were originally conduit cars, later converted to overhead wire when they were moved to the Bronx.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know, I know -- I cheated a bit. But they look sort of like cable car lines!
That they do... if I didn't know what they really were, I would have had no reason to doubt you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's amazing is that they're still there (I think -- granted, I haven't been around there in a few months), underneath the Riverside Drive viaduct at 125th, in a traffic island.
One of these times I'm going to have to go by there just to see them for myself... that's one spot I haven't walked.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I cheated a bit. But they look sort of like cable car lines!
They sure do! I'm amazed they are still there after all these years. I have to go check those out one day. Of course though, we don't have Alcatraz looming in the backround....
Actually, according to the "Third Avenue Railway System in Manhattan" published by N. J. International, Inc. (1996), the 1870 125th Street Crosstown line (TARS) was converted to cable operation on 12-1-86. The Third Avenue Railway had a number of cable car lines in Manhattan before later converting to electricity.
Then of course there is the Cable Building at Broadway and Houston which was both headquarters and a power station for Manhattan's cable cars. The cable slot made it easy to convert to underground third rail instead of using overhead trolleys in Manhattan.
Very interesting. I thought I remember reading somewhere that NY did indeed have some cable cars at one time. As mentioned, 125th street was one. Does anyone know what streets of the Third Ave Railway's system have them. Did it's main route along Third Ave have cable cars at some point before converting to underground third rail?
I only have books for the TARS handy right now. (Probably their chief competitor in Manhattan would have been the Metropolitan Street Railway Company; which took control of them in 1900.) TARS cable lines: 125 Crosstown; Amsterdam Ave (=Tenth Avenue); Third Avenue. (I believe the main cable station was at Third Avenue and 65th Street.) By 1893, electricity was more practical, so they began the conversion from cable/horse cars to electric (easy on cable lines, more expensive on horse car lines).
TARS had an extensive street car system in Manhattan, The Bronx, and Westchester. See the book I referenced earlier, or "Across New York by Trolley: A Pictorial Review of the Third Avenue Railway System in Manhattan, The Bronx and Westchester" by Frederick A. Kramer, published by Quadrant Press, Inc. in 1975.
According to Branford's guidebook, Ride Down Memory Lane, their TARS car#20 originally built in 1892 for the Third Av Main Line was a cable car and converted to electric in 1899.
TARS 629 (at Branford) and 631 (at Seashore) were originally conduit cars, later converted to overhead wire when they were moved to the Bronx.
Don't forget 220 - converted from cable car to conduit in 1899.
Correct... another bit of commentary on my tour when it's in the Quonset.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You should get the building on stilts. It's on Overlook Terrace at 190th St, and when you look at the back of it from Broadway, you see it is only sitting on a tall steel frame, instead of the stone foundation most of those buldings use. You can also look down on this from the building's side passage from the street to the basement entrances.
Yeah, I know the building you are talking about. I'll get a picture of it sometime this summer when the weather is more condusive to biking around & taking photos.
BTW, one aside about stone vs. steel foundations: I believe that many -- if not all -- buildings which sit on the side of cliffs in the Heights sit on steel supports. The steel framework is actually the load-bearing structure; the stone walls just enclose the steel framework. I suppose that the stone helps prevent the steel from rusting, and is aesthetically more pleasing. I don't know why that building on Overlook didn't put a stone wall around the steel; perhaps it was a cost-saving measure?
Here's a photo of the back of another building in the Heights. The stone wall is (barely) partially visible through a hole in the trees.
It's kinda hard to see the stone behind the trees, but you get an idea of how high up the building sits on the cliff. The front of the building is on street level, so the drop-off is quite incredible. If I am not mistaken, the building's foundation is actually taller than the building itself.
I kind of figured some of those foundations might have been hollow.
I always liked the way those buildings overlooked the Deegan. (You can also see alot of this from the Jerome line.) It was a unique feature of the Bronx and upper Manhattan that you didn't see elswehere in the city. Kind of a cross between country and city (urban buildings sitting on country style winding roads, hills and cliffs. Same topography as suburban Westchester and New England.
13 years ago, I walked from 150th St. Bronx to Ave. H Brooklyn, via 2nd Av., Brooklyn Bridge (I wished the Manhattan walkway was open like now. That is a big shortcut)., Prospect Pk. West and Coney Island Av. Took 5 hours. I used to do other fairly long walks, such as Nostrnad Junction to Park Row.
well, somewhere near rt 1 & 9,(Old Town?)
Old Bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's the deal with this thread? Not one person answered the original questions!
Hehe, yeah it turned into a thread about stairways in streets very early on, also a fairly interesting topic, although it should have been a topic on it's own, sometimes the thread title never gets changed, which is the case here.
As for the original questions, they are also very interesting. Unfortunately, I haven't a clue what the answers are, and unfortunately I guess no one that knows the answer read the questions. Usually if people know, they answer fairly quickly.
I would love to hear the answers myself, but in the meantime I have enjoyed the detour the thread has taken also.
If someone knew (knows) the answer to the original questions, I'm sure they'll answer.
Well, you gotta admit: The Bronx has an interesting topology. The original questions jogged my mind on Bronx thoughts. Again, I don't know the answers to the questions. Uh, I'd say, it would help you to walk along it for a stretch. Some of the answers might come to you as you cross the neighborhoods. Hell, long as I'm dodging the questions again, lemme add a few more Bronx Thoughts here.
1. Ever see The Bronx from a plane taking off from LaGuardia? Beautiful! All the els come into sharp focus. The street grid pattern with all the visible rail lines, the lovely, in a mathematical sense, squares and oblongs of the various buildings...looks like a giant train set.
2. Ignoring the urban block-buster effect of its construction, the CBE DOES do a quite a job of wedging itself within the street pattern. And it does have some nice long underpasses. You'd think you were entering a tunnel, first time you go under some of them. Interesting in a purely engineering sense.
3. It's funny but you never see many pictures of the early Bronx. I'd like to see some shots from when the first apartment buildings starting rising on the flat plains and hilly sections. Or even from when there were mostly farms up there.
4. I wonder if it'll ever turn middle class again...
>> It's funny but you never see many pictures of the early Bronx. I'd like to see some shots from when the first apartment buildings starting rising on the flat plains and hilly sections. Or even from when there were mostly farms up there. <<
There's a series of photo books of the old Bronx with pictures like that. "The Beautiful Bronx", "The Bronx in the Innocent Years", and other titles. Many of them are available at Barnes and Noble stores in the city, as well as on line.
Some old photos of the Bronx are really interesting. Many of the els were built through farmland. I have seen photos of some of the stations up there, and the exits just exit into open fields, like sending an el through Southold.
Yep, and within a few years, the empty areas got all built up -- a tribute to the development power of mass transit which people forget today.
Imagine moving into one of the first apartment buildings when that process started happening. Must have felt like you were living in an electrified future world of the power of progress. I'll bet the kids had a ball....
To answer some of these questions -- I don't believe 177th St. continued west past West Farms (except for the small segemnt near Concourse). The street map reveals that where it would have been, between 176 and 178, you find Tremont Ave. instead. I also don't believe the Cross Bronx Expy. covered over any other numbered streets in the East Bronx. 177th was an anomaly there. It cut through the existing street grid of named streets as almost the only numbered street in the area.
Luckily, I have a 1931 map of the Bronx, so I can answer these questions.
East 177th ended on Devoe Avenue as now, except for the short bit near the Concourse as already mentioned.
According to Mapquest, the section near the Throgs Neck Bridge is called Locust Point Drive. I am almost certain the street signs call this street East 177th. Hagstrom (at least the pre-modernized version) calls it 177.
There was no other street, just 177.
Eastbound. Look at an aerial photo that shows The Cross Bronx off-center approaching Hugh Grant Circle. The eastbound service road is aligned, and so was 177 in the day.
Interesting, I wonder why some websites mention E 177 Street meeting Prospect Avenue?
Actually 177th Street runs parallel to Devoe Avenue and runs into Tremont Avenue(meets Tremont 3 times)
If you go back further, Tremont Avenue WAS called East 177th Street, except for that section that loops around East 177th between the Concourse and Jerome, that was still Tremont Avenue (and in Tremont, formerly Upper Morrisania).
East of the Bronx River, in the Town of Westchester, it was called West Farms Road. After hitting today's Bronxdale Avenue, it was Bear Swamp Road (Bronxdale Ave also carried this name), then upon hitting Westchester Square, it was Fort Schuyler Road.
what year did they switch it? why did they switch it, 177th Street would have been better off that way.
also they should rename the EB service road E 177th Street officially, just like in Throgs Neck, also they could close one of the ramps so the street can be two way near the (6) 177th Street station, call both of the service roads 177th Street, or just leave it as a one way street (or call the WB road by Hugh Grant Circle 177th Street)
Do you also know if the street that ran from 240th Street/Mclean Avenue to W 5th Street, was E 238th Street or Nereid Avenue(or both) in that old map of yours? (one 80's map shows 238 St until WPR, then Nereid Av).
In 1931 it was all Nereid.
Does anybody actually remember it being called anything but Nereid except in the subway?
In 1931 it was all Nereid.
Does anybody actually remember it being called anything but Nereid except in the subway?
The Bronx didn't have a Queens-style en masse conversion of names to numbers, did it?
Most streets in the Bronx are still named.
Keeping the name 177th would have been a good idea back when the expressway was built, but doing so now would be disruptive.
I don't think any ramps should be closed.
Also East Tremont became its current self early in the last (20th) century.
in Throgs Neck they kept 177th on the EB side, why not Parkchester, some people still use 177th as their address
The Throgs Neck Bridge was built later than the Cross-Bronx Expressway.
Which name should that service road have anyway? Throgs Neck Expressway or Cross-Bronx Expressway Extension.
Makes it more consistent. 4th Avenue is separated from Park by Union Square East.
Also, no map that I have seen names either Bedford Park Blvd or Dyckman Street "200th Street." In fact, older maps will call 204th Street and 207th in Manhattan west of 10th "Hawthorne Street" and "Emerson Street" respectively.
Were either of the 207th St stations ever called Emerson St?
Today things are done different, Martin Luther King Jr Blvd(125th Street) and Eugenio Maria De Hostos Blvd(149th Street) are co designated, just like how BPB should have been done(or maybe could be done in the future, since 6 Av was restored and co designated with it's named counterpart, Av of The Americas).
Peace,
ANDEE
http://irmaml.tripod.com/BxPix12/3-05.html
Peace,
ANDEE
Throgs Neck
E 177th Street
Edgewater Park
1 Av
2 Av
3 Av....12 Av, etc
Pelham Bay Area
E 194th Street
E 195th Street
E 196th Street
E 197th Street
Baychester/Eastchester Area
E 222nd Street
E 233rd Street
there may be some more
Interesting, you said it would have been a good idea to keep 177th originally, besides one service road is a 2 way street, with no ramps
That is what made 177th Street great, it was the only numbered street to reach White Plains Road below Gun Hill Road, plus it met Tremont Avenue 3 separate times in the Bronx, how many other streets can say that?
Plus if 177th Street were restored on the EB service road (as one way street, WB will still be Cross Bronx Service Road North) until WPR(everything after that can stay the same), it can dead end into Virginia Park. Hugh Grant Circle and the Park will separate 177th from Cross Bronx Service Road South, and the MTA can keep using "E 177 Street-Parkchester" as an accurate name, people can finally know where "E 177 St" is. Hagstrom and many other maps (yahoo, oasisnyc) still use East 177th Street in Throgs Neck, even NYPIRG(and straphangers) uses 177th as well
BTW in your old map, how far east does 176th Street go past Boston Road?
I should have asked you this before
By east Bronx, did you mean far east, or just White Plains Road east?
in nay event the east Bronx has plenty of numbered streets north of Gun Hill Road
E 211 Street
E 212 Street.........
E 238 Street
E 239 Street
E 240 Street
E 241 Street
E 242 Street
E 243 Street
its just like Manhattan in Wakefield!
#2 E177 at Locust Point is a residential area with ramp access to the Throggs Neck toll area. It's only open during certain hours. The BX8 runs right past the ramp entrance, turns around on Tierney and Giegerich Places then heads north to E 226 Street.
Michael
Washington, DC
Rode the trains today and the IRT was NOT the place to be once again this weekend. Let me type and show y'all what I'm saying. If you ask me, today felt like a Sunday schedule.
1-Slightly reduced service throughout the whole line or at least south of 137 St.
2-Had to wait 15 minutes for a express train today at 14 St since I rode the 2/5 shuttle bus once again. VERY SLOW from 135 to 149/GC took 10 minutes to go between those two stations, long intervals looked like it ran every 15 minutes instead of 10m.
3-All trains were terminating at 96 St and in the process ALL n/b 3's were running on the local all the way through s/b trains normal service; resulting in the slight decrease of 1 service. NO notifications, no GO flyers and the C/R made NO announcement of the n/b local service through 96 until we left Chambers St.
4-If you could of avoided this line, you were lucky b/c I sure did! All trains were running local from Atlantic-Utica Av in both directions due to platform work at Atlantic. Also all trains ran on the local track north of 42 St/Grand Central.
5-Same thing as the 4 via Lexington ran on the local track north of 42 St and 5's it ran in two sections; BG-149/GC and East 180-Dyre Av aka the Dyre shuttle so the shuttle bus was the way to go.
6-Slight reduction in service since you had 4's and 5's running on the local track and you couldn't keep the current headway levels with TWO track out of service N of 42 St.
7-All Manhattan bound service ran express from Willets Point-61 St Woodside.
some lines had it good
S (42nd Street Shuttle)- operating normally
some IRT lines had it good
S (42nd Street Shuttle)- operating normally
Well with the 2 and 3 everyone will have to deal with that until 3/10.
I wonder why they had the 4 and 5 running local? And there should've been some GO flyers about the 2/3 cause it started last weekend.3's are running to 137St instead of 148St and the 2 should be ending at 149/GC so why the heck were they ending at 96St for?
V Train, I was trying to figure that out myself :-\. For the 3 there was NO flyers at all regarding the train terminating at 96 St and running local n/b and the 2 was running to 149 St/GC.
You sure the 3 was terminating at 96St? Cause last weekend they sent the 3's to 137St with passenger's in them.I know cause I saw it when I waited for a 3 with a RF window at 137St and I rode one on my way home.
Yup, it was on the rollsigns AND the C/R announced it every stop. I know 3's went to 137 last week but for some reason they only went to 96 St; odd!
What kind of work are they doing to foul up the service on the IRT? It seems like you can't get from here to there on the IRT!! IRT this weekend stands for INDECENT RAPID TRANSIT!!!!!!!!!!
#3 West End Jeff
On the 2/5 its for switch installment at Jackson Av and other work. On the Lex its track work I believe, probably the same for the 3 north of 135 St, on the 7 I'm not sure on that but I suspect its track work, signals or both.
From what someone said here in a earlier post,the switch tracks just before 148St was skeletonized so they're fixing the trackbed there.
After all the delays caused cleaning out the trains at 137 the Supt. changed it to 3 trains discharging at 96th, and the road was running smoother then last week.
Well, the 2 was on 12 minutes headways all day, all weekend. There are signs posted for the 3. It states that there is no service between 148St-96St. The 3s were supposed to terminate at 96St via local, run light to 137St, change ends and start southbound service at 137. They also supposed to crossover to the express track at 96St, but this is being done at Times Square.
Da Beastmaster
Nope, 3 trains crossover at 96 St that I saw and ran normal from there to New Lots. And a few flyers of all the listed GO's around the system won't/didn't really help thousands of commuters on the 7 Av line.
Did you ride a S/B #5 from 149 GC to 125 on a Redbird? I had a buff in my operating car talking about redbirds and the G.O on the 2,5 Line.
Nope, I avoided the Lexington line completely this weekend due to the GO's. I saw a set of R33 Redbirds parked on the middle track at the 4 train level of 149/GC but I think it wasn't in service and it was full of TA employees.
That was our office train.
Oh, that explains it.
I'm still planning on traveling into the city on Monday for the field trip (hopefully), but Todd wasn't joking about snowshoes: over a foot of snow is expected, with the heaviest falling during the day on Monday. -Nick
Philly is going to get 10" to 20". I hope my workplace calls it a paid day off so I can play on SubTalk & BusTalk all day.
Chuck Greene
Todd never jokes about Transit and Weather Together :-)
Power to be used, and not abused. Heh. So finally YOU guys are taking it in the ear, though I've felt twangs of sympathy for Beantown lately, getting clipped by some of the stuff that's hit us earlier this year. I'd loan ya my snowshoes, but I lost them out in the field. Moo. :)
Send some of that white stuff our way. We got an inch or two yesterday, which is better than nothing, but we're still parched.
I have at least 150,000 gallons of water on my property alone. Back in a truck, you can have it! But DON'T shut her down, or you'll never get the motor restarted. CSX finally figured THAT out. :)
Sure, in subzero weather you won't. Synthetic oil comes in handy then. I had Castrol Syntec 0W-30 in my Jeep before I changed over to 5W-30 last week. That 0W-30 will pour at -40 deg. F.
hehehe, Todd....that is definitely true. Maybe you'll have some subtalkers giving you snow reports tomorrow, just like on Christmas Day! -Nick
Suburban Maryland, more than one foot.
Yes, I can get WCBS down here :-)
I'll have you dialled in tommorow morning. I have the cars parked but to tail in the driveway, and the tracker is first with 4WD turned on, but I'll wait for you to tell me when it's safe to go outside
< grin >
Figure June or so.
But I think it was remarkable that we were able to see the potential for this coming four to five days advance (see my post of 2/13). When I was a young subwayfan growing up in The Bronx, the best notice would have been 24 hours, if that. The computer simulations are pretty darn good (On topic -- I hope the RTO's computer simulations of post-full Manny B ridership projections are as good!)
Well, bed time. Looks like a fun day tomorrow :-) Here in Boston it will be 15-20 inches, too. Fortunately I'll be doing Transit and Weather Together from my home office.
I would say "bag" the field trip and wait until SPRING. 12" to 20" predicted.
Chuck Greene
If it looks really bad tomorrow morning, I wouldn't go. Service might be a problem, especially on lines tthat run outside. We don't want anyone to be stranded far from home.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I am going to do. Metro-North is known for running on-time, so getting to GCT shouldn't be much of a problem. Getting to Atlantic Ave won't wither, since I'll just hop a 4 or 5 downtown. But we may need to modify the trip, or postpone it. I'll let Thurston make that decision. -Nick
I say the trip leader Thurston (aka MR.T) should consider making it a snowmobile/subway fantrip....even a dogsled/subway fantrip LOL! :)
I say the trip leader Thurston (aka MR.T) should consider making it a snowmobile/subway fantrip....
Definitely a Ski-Doo snowmobile, made by Bombardier!
Seriously, I had planned to participate in this trip, but the storm has changed my mind.
See the other thread, I decided to cancel the Field Trip.
Will probably be using a different type of rails tommorow on the snow with my grandson, i.e. Flexible Flyer < g >
NO, that's not a bus :-(
I couldnt go if I wanted to, I'll be stranded up here in the boonies tomorrow, hopefully they will clear the roads by Tuesday, otherwise my only way out may be my 2 feet!
Looks we gonna have a BLOCKBUSTER STORM on our hand in the next 12-24 Hours.
The clouds roll in...
The drums pound...
The crowd grows hushed...
And often there's nothing, but at least at 11:19, it looks like we will have at least a few inches before it rains and sleets.
If it IS all snow, it might be a good day for train riding since there'll be nobody out in Manhattan...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, had myself a field day out riding the buses and subways today. Started out by taking the B8 to Newkirk Av where I run for the (Q) and I just catch the R68 Q; was standing room only but I got a seat; took that to Atlantic Av where I will transfer to the 2 or 3. So the 3 comes first and I get a full RF window on 2021 and we're off. We go pretty smoothly until the C/R at Chambers announces we are going LOCAL all the way to 96 St [where it was terminating at]. So the 2 bypassed us at Houston St then when before I arrive at 14 St, some passengers and myself get upset that the 3 runs local and there was insufficent notices regarding that. So I have to wait 15 minutes before the next 2 arrives; it was pretty crowded but surprisingly I got a seat! So we're goig fast via 7 Av express and the CP path [to me it got more faster over time] but after leaving 135 St it takes 10 minutes before we reach 149/GC. Because of the 2, it added 25-30 min of extra traveling time.
So then I get out, listen to people's gripes about the shuttle bus and some guy said "Bin Laden is getting us that's why we going outside" and there were a few chuckles from fellow passengers [see Bustalk for that portion]. So I finish doing 2 round trips on the shuttle bus and I take the Bx19 back to 145 St/St Nicholas and then its back to the rails. So I go downstairs and the A arrives about 2 minutes after I reach the platform but the D gets in front of us, which will affect our speed via the CPW express. So about 3 minutes later we finally leave 145 St, bypass 135 arrive at 125 get held there for a minute b/c of someone holding the doors. We leave and we're going fine until we stop COMPLETELY after bypassing 86 St due to a red signal. Then we start up again and we arrive at Columbus Circle; for those who think one CPW local service covers everything on weekends think again it needs the B again like before 7/22/01. We go very fast until I reach 14 St, where I get off to catch the L.
So I'm getting ready to ride the 3 section L and as soon as I arrive on the platform, the 1st shuttle train is arriving on the platform and it was a R42 which was no surprise. It was a 1 track shuttle running on the Canarsie bound track but to Union Sq only. So I ride it to Union and I get off and there's a BIG crowd of people waiting to go to Brooklyn. So I wait about 5 minutes before the second shuttle train arrives from Bedford and the seats are raided very quickly but I got the RF window :-). This was also a 1 track shuttle but this ran on the 8 Av bound track [Q2]. So we're waiting the C/R closes the doors but doesn't know that there was no T/O in the train so we had to wait about 10 extra minutes before we finally leave. So we skip 1 & 3 Aves and I see work equipment on the Canarsie bound track. So we wrongrail, go about 15-20mph and then once we hit the tunnel we went about 45mph and then gradually slowed down until reaching Bedford.
So the train terminates there and people are very confused and worried about getting lost and the crowd heading towards Rockaway Parkway was BIG at Bedford and 5 minutes later a R143 arrives and I dash inside the train to get a seat. It was nearly a crush load as we got prepared to leave Bedford. So we wait about 7-10 minutes and then we're off; remember trains were running every 15 minutes so that's why there was longer dwell times. We move through the stations pretty quickly and the C/R doesn't realize that the automatic announcements was saying the wrong stops; they were announcing the Manhattan stops repeatedly; until we reach Atlantic Av :-\. Then we arrive at Rockaway Parkway and I hop on the B82, take that to the B46 and I stop at Kings Plaza to get a few things. So then I take the B41 to Foster and luckily the B8 was waiting at Foster and I take it home.
RTS 8450 B8
R68 2786 (Q)
R62A 2021 (3)
R142 6530 (2)
RTS 5054 SHUTTLE BUS
RTS 9470 SHUTTLE BUS
RTS 8913 SHUTTLE BUS
RTS 8050 SHUTTLE BUS
Orion 223 Bx19
R44 5420 (A)
R42 4698 Shuttle train 1
R42 4717 Shuttle train 2
R143 8144 (L)
RTS 5208 B82
RTS 8429 B46 LTD
RTS 8444 B41
RTS 8559 B8
I am sure some superintendant ordered the dispatcher at Canarsie to make sure that R143's would not wind up on those 2 L shuttles!
Is it possible to listen to the NYC Subway Radio Frequencies online (just using computer and internet connection - no special radio)?
In Manhattan today, I saw RTS 8638 (I believe that was the #) on Lexington Ave. It was either an M101 -103 I'm not sure. The front display was soooo tiny and toward the top of the display area and to the left i couldn't read it. Is this the operator's error or a problem with the digital display?
Sorry , should be on bustalk, Please disregard!!!!!!
To the List:
Well, those R-142s have done their thing.
The last non-rehab or "SMS" Redbird train was laid up on February 11, 2002 at East 180 Street and is awaiting its fate. All that now remain on the 5 are 58 "SMS" Redbirds, backing up the R-142s in rush hours. These will remain as passenger cars as long as needed, then probably move on to Utility duties.
Here's your numbers:
8812/8813
8816/8817
8820/8821
8834/8835
8858/8859
8862/8863
8868/8869
8890/8891
8892/8893
8914/8915
8936/8937
8954/8955
8956/8957
8964/8965
8996/8997
9000/9001
9010/9011
9016/9017
9020/9021
9032/9033
9038/9039
9066/9067
9068/9069
9070/9071
9074/9075
9138/9139
9206/9207
Re previous posts, R-33s 8930/8931, 9090/9091, 9160/9161 were withdrawn from the 5 as of February 2 and laid up. 9090/9091 and 9160/9161 were put on a 4 train by February 10 in place of four Jerome-assigned Redbirds. 8930/8931 was added on February 14. These may have replaced corresponding Jerome cars but there is no indication any have as yet been retired. At any rate, they have indeed been added to the surviving 4 fleet for the present time, increasing the known total on 4 to 40.
ALL OTHER GE R-33s ARE OUT OF PASSENGER SERVICE AT THIS TIME.
May they rest well....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Funny how two of the most unreliable R33s, the 9000 set not only survived through the years continuing to burn to its frame, but got one last overhaul. Curious as to how many work cars will be ordered to replace the aging riders, its now or never to get rid of them.
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
P'shaw, if they put all the money spent on useless studies into actual rail lines....
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#A
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
P'shaw, if they put all the money spent on useless studies into actual rail lines....
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Philadelphia
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Continental
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
Face it, we all knew it couldn't last
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Vermont
Too bad, they had a cute little system there.
What type of cars /engine are run?
Face it, we all knew it couldn't last
It was a stupid idea to begin with. I mean, geez, VT has practically nobody in it anyway, and the service was like a train in the morning and one in the afternoon, and it was all acient crappy cars anyway.
But it probbably wouldn't even had worked as a LRV or DMU setup. It had practically no ridership from day one, and didn't attract any.
It was an experiment (albeit a stupid one - I wonder how they came up with the idea), and it failed.
The train was started due to a construction on a major traffic route into burlington VT. The train was used so drivers could have an alternative during the construction project. From what I read, during the project and when the ride being pree, people used the service.
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Fixing
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
Study also finds, people breathe oxygen!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Study
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Canadian
In reading some of the other stories on your link, I see that the Underground (London) may hire Robert Kiley and possibly embark on a plan of partial privitization.
How about that! Partial privitization.
Is it possible?
[How about that! Partial privitization. Is it possible?]
That depends on which part(s) will be impacted. Will LU contract out maintenance and operations on individual lines? Will LU and/or multiple contractors jointly cover certain segments? Or will LU keep all the operations and farm out all the maintenance? It'll be very interesting to see just how this "partial privatization" is implemented AND just how successful it is (or isn't) - especially in light of the British Rail fiasco.
It's in effect two giant maintenance contracts. It's also a fiasco in its own right already:
Tube costs 'astonishing'
Government's Tube cash offer
Underground proposals 'down the tube'?
Extra £1.5bn for Tube plan call
Tube challenge 'waste of money'
[It's also a fiasco in its own right already]
Why am I not surprised that a "Public-Private Partnership" has turned into Parasitism?
The British Government's rail transport policy, applied first at the national level and now in the Underground, seems to be one of subtraction (in service and state-of-repair) by addition (in costs). Have mambers of Parliament been consulting with their U.S. counterparts to bring this about?
Its that time again...you guessed it, Destination Freedom! Sorry if its a little late this week.
I remember this guy, he did such a good job at Conrail that it was bought up and utterly destroyed by CSX and NS. Hmmm, Newsflash 2007 - NYCT and Paris Metro to split up London Underground?
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02102003.shtml#Former
YAWN... old news... posted here over a week ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sort of puzzled by all of this.
We have a guy named LeVan down here who recently opened a brand new Harley Davidson dealership. I was told that he was the last CEO of Conrail.
Hmmm, Newsflash 2007 - NYCT and Paris Metro to split up London Underground?
That's old news too - the Labour government have sold the Underground to two different companies - in units which make little operational sense: one company's got the subsurface lines, plus the Bakerloo, Central and Victoria; the other's got the Drain, Northern, Piccadilly and Jubilee.
Oh, and Bombardier partly own the larger of those two franchises...
The horror...the horror.
There is a memo out saying that all T/O, C/R, T/D, AT/D, TW/O & TSS'S, are being given out Gas Masks over the next few week. If you do not have one by 3/4/03 you won't be able to sing in for work untill you get one. Dame it took them 2+ years since 9/11 to get us something just incase.
Robert
I know, I just saw the notice today. I wonder if youll get paid OT since it implies that you should come after your "tour of duty".
Da Beastmaster
The TSS said where getting paid 3 hrs and have to be in full uniform.
I get off at 12:00mid on Thusday, I am wondering if they are open, becouse the next day I could go is my RDO. If I go then I want 12hours pay of it.
Robert
Its going to be a 24 HR operation and I understand you don't have to go in on your RDO. I have to go when all can go which will be a SAT/SUN. Since we are on PM's I take it I would hve to go at the end of my tour of my FRI/SAT jobs since they going into the next day.
I don't like the way this is being done. First off there are only 3 location. Second you have to do it AFTER YOUR TOUR OF DUTY and a TSS said it may take up to 2 Hours since you also will get trained on how to wear it and other stuff. They are going by last names which puts it on my RDO so its looks like I have to go when all can go which will be a Sat/Sun.
I am all for getting the mask but there has to be a better way.
OSHA requires that any (-) Pressure respirator device be properly fitted and the user be trained before it can be used. There used to be a requirement that the user have no beard but I'm not sure if this is still the case.
That's the good news. On the other hand - how long will the canisters last? What type of cannisters will be supplied? My understanding is that the masks are known as "escape masks".
[There used to be a requirement that the user have no beard but I'm not sure if this is still the case.]
Well, that exempts Una Kev...and Anon_E_mouse (if both were NYCT employees)
Chewing gum in nose and SCUBA bit in mouth. CI Peter
I've quit jobs over demands for a haircut. A SHAVE? Nah. I'll wait for issuance of the Jim Carrey style mask. In green, please. :)
I'm not quite sure of the terminology 'pressure respirator device.'
Half and full face coverage filter masks (gas masks) work at atmospheric pressure unlike pressurised rescue masks which are fed from a 1800 PSI air bottle. As for beards, wood workers are exposed to highly toxic wood dusts from exotic hardwoods that can cause breathing difficulties/paralysis and I know that there are special masks made. I know of no standard CBR masks to accomodate 'beards'
but I would not be surprised if IMI made such masks to accomodate Orthodox members of the military force. Such a mask would require exceptional training to seat properly...you only have moments to mount and fit upon alert. CI Peter
Yes, it is escape masks and it is for 15 minutes of use.
Da Beastmaster
Did you ever use an escape hood to flee from a sunken submarine at a depth of 200 meters? Fifteen minutes upon exposure and you're dead.
Problem is with initial exposure.
No you dont. I went today on my RDO and its not my scheduled day. I dont think that they care. Just as long as you showed up.
Da Beastmaster
So, do you know how to use it properly? Did you get a chance to test it out?
It's good that the transit folks are giving out gas masks. However, trains change the air every 15 minutes or so in the subway, as designed, and therefore a terror attack using chemical agents will be distributed over large sections of the system. The air doesn't get changed out of the system (except where tracks are one level below the street, as on the West Side IRT) but moved to other sections of the line. IOW, who's looking out for the passengers?
I wonder what you are supposed to do in an attack.
If it's chemical, you want to get out of there, because the risk is immediate, and having trains move will blow the poison out of the system and dilute it so it can't kill anyone.
But if it's biological or radiological, that's the last thing you want, because it will spread the contamination all over the place, enough to shut down the system for months and kill the economy.
And is there any way to know which is which on the spot?
Well, I have my trusty Cold War era geiger counter that I purchased from Heypaul Heavy Industries last year...I think I'll give it a test one of these weeks...
If you have a smoke detector handy, it should start clicking for ya ...
I was kinda trying to decide whether or not to even get involved with this thread for numerous reasons I've mentioned in others. There's so many conflicting emotions and logic to it all. In the event of an actual attack, I know I'd feel better knowing that at least the operator and conductor might remain conscious and be able to MOVE the train out of the affected area which would increase the odds somewhat of survivability. Without the equipment, a gas attack could kill us all by overwhelming the crew in place.
I'm compelled to ask other questions though, are the FILTERS provided with the masks sufficiently microscopic to actually make a difference, will they be properly trained in how to SEAL the mask, will they be able to see OUT of the eyeports properly to not hit a homeball? In such a situation, unfortunately the passengers would be left to fend for themselves regardless, but at least the odds are slightly improved by preventing the crew from being immobilized.
Studies done more than 30 years ago demonstrated that in the event of a "gas" or "germ" attack that the material would rapidly propagate through the system with train movements, although the concentrations would be slightly diminished. But in the end, I'd also have to consider the fatalistic realities that an ordinary building collapse (old brick structures, nothing WTC-like) could fall on a tunnel and kill you, a train could derail and kill you, or you could be shot when you come up the stairs at an exit.
Thus I hate to say this, but this is yet another "feel good" although likely a welcome one since it would improve survivability SLIGHTLY in the event of something nasty. But I wouldn't call it a solution myself. I'm glad the MTA is at least demonstrating concern for their employees. Beyond that I know that the protection offered is slightly better than nothing. Agggh. There isn't any way to really reassure anyone here though. :(
In practice, the main value of the gas masks will be to make it easier to tolerate smelly skells.
Are they doing fit tests?
Will employees have to shave their beards?
Chemical attack, without a suit, the mask means nothing if the chemcial gets on you.
The customers see you with a mask on, not one of them are going to bonk you over the head to get it for themselves?
Sounds to me like a knee jerk reaction.
C'mon, Unca Lou ... get WITH the progrom! Every cab will then get a duct tape dispenser, wandering new-age minstrels roaming the cars selling plastic sheet, we're all set! These is modern times. :(
What bothers me still is are the carbodskies going to be equipped with "evil detectors" that will alert the crew to go "critical" or will there be a "bend over and kiss your butt goodbye" signs that will flash in the car along with the appropriate MTA-approved "customer service announcement from the blue book?"
The SHEER STUPIDITY of this all rivals 1954. :(
But let's vote for these morons AGAIN. :(
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your conductor speaking. Please direct your attention to the life rafts in the overhead containers of our train. In the event of a terrorist attack, please inflate them and get into them. This will do you no good at all, but 200 years from now, when archaeologists find you, they'll think there was a river here! Also please note the many new features of our R-142 equipment. These include a "We apologize for the Unavoidable delay" announcement, which will activate upon the detonation of explosives. Be sure to familiarize yourselves with our new seating arrangement which provides plenty of room to Duck and Cover, remember not to look at the flash or the fireball. Thank you for riding the MTA".
GEEZ! And I thought *I* was a professional cynic. My hat, and my pants, are off to you. :)
EMS (Earn Money Sleeping) will teach you about EVIL. Not necessarily OBL's kind of evil, but the sick, twisted evil that the guy next door can do. After seeing these things for years you'll be hypercynical, too.
No argument here, I learned my cynicism in the MEDIA ... but they still wanted me to spew the honey anyway. Only got me OUT of it. Then I got into covering POLITICS. Heh.
I just wish folks that had never been sucked into civil service titles could only GRASP the level of evil that they go to the polls and pull the lever for ... AGAIN ... AGGGGggh. But yeah, what we're going through NOW won't ring the cluephone loud enough to dial up a clue among those too stupid to be ALLOWED to vote either. :(
Tax cuts uber alles, free oil for everyone.
Remember the 1964 Goldwater campaign ad, the one the FCC wouldn't allow TV stations to air? It shows a voter pulling a lever and...KABOOM! Nuclear detonation. The voice over says "These are the stakes..." They need to bring that ad BACK and REALLY air it this time. I wish folks took a moment to LEARN a little about their candidates, who these people really ARE. We got Bloomberg and what he did to our EMS system ain't pretty, just to cite one example. Look at what the QUACK pipe smokers in Albany are trying to do to our beloved transit system. That ain't pretty either.
I do agree with you that public service employees are usually the MOST aware of our local politicians, but that's because public agencies usually have to deal with the consequences of the pols' decisions...
... and then write a report about it that never gets read. Yeah, know ALL too well what $cumbags the great unwashed re-elect, again and again and again, often running UNOPPOSED like Senator Joey ...
Talk of REVOLUTION is a goner, but to those of us who actually SERVE the bastards ... well ... that's *WHY* I quit the state and can now sleep at night (unless it's a 38 hour day like today's been in the "private sector") ... but at least out HERE, I can savor having actually had a RESULT from the hours worked.Then again, in EMS, YOU get to also achieve a result even if it's for the porkers that you can quantify for your OWN soul. Ain't the same flying a desk for adminswigs and junior deputy docudroids who could give a qwap like *I* had to deal with.
NYS Dpartment of Public Shafting (PSC) ... ain't no righteousness THERE. :(
But I got better, sans meds.
>>> Remember the 1964 Goldwater campaign ad, the one the FCC wouldn't allow TV stations to air? It shows a voter pulling a lever and...KABOOM! Nuclear detonation. The voice over says "These are thestakes.. <<<
I remember it, but do you? There was no voter, just a young girl in a field picking off the petals of a daisy counting in a childish voice as she removed each petal. Then in the background a cold metallic adult voice began a countdown from ten. The child turns with a startled look on her face and the camera moves in to a closeup of one eye. At the end of the countdown there is a nuclear explosion, and then Johnson's voice over message.
Here is a link to a video if you want to download and see it yourself:
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/ad.archive/daisy_long.mov
Although the commercial aired only once during a "Movie of the Week" on NBC, (but was discussed and shown in news programs later) it is considered the most effective negative political TV ad ever made. I am not sure Goldwater had any realistic chance to win even without the ad, but that ad and his own statement that "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." plus a position favoring "states rights" scared enough people to give Johnson a landslide victory.
Tom
Now come on Kev! No matter WHAT the question, the anwser is "MORE TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH"
Wonder if the public's ready to "screw the Ay-rabs, let's drill for oil on 14th and 8th." :)
I could see the number being played by the politicos working in Lower Slobovia, but it never ceases to amaze me how AMERICANS are eating this stuff up (and buying DUCT TAPE TOO!) ... geez. :(
And one last thing ... how are they going to know WHEN to apply the mask? :(
Before Sept. 11 EMS was equipped with the usual NPF 95 face mask which we put on during 9/11 responses when we arrived on the scene and discovered that, well, it's a little hard to breathe down here. Today we have dual filter gas masks which we'll put on when we discover that, well, it's a little hard to breathe down here...:-(
I guess it's having lived with having been stabbed, beaten and SHOT before - EVERY day on this planet is SACRED, and should be enjoyed for the GIFT that life IS ... but nobody's ever gotten out of the planet alive, much less with their riches, and the scary nonsense of today's GOP reality in ignoring the rest of the world that we all live on IS ...
SAVOR EVERY MOMENT ... be it terrorists, or be it a coronary, NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE. As was life during the cold war, you may wake up in the middle of the night to a bright flash, and then you die. Along with 110 million others. Whatever the "terrorists" may dish out, global thermonuclear (*NOT* "NUCULAR") warfare is far worse than anything that's happened or *WILL* ...
Those of us who lived through EARLIER "Republican times" may well shake the dust off in two years and find that civilization STILL exists, despite the morons we've elected. ***HAVE FAITH!***
Unca Selkirk sez, "don't let yer dick run yer life." :)
Even in the Cold War daze (Duck and Cover!) we were reasonably sure that even the most rabid Republican and even the most schizophrenic Socialist loved their children and didn't want them to die. The Balance of Terror kept us and the Rooskies alive for 45 years. Today's world is definitely more frightening than what has gone before.
PS I was SHOT by a crazed drug dealer in 1991(who missed his intended target) I was STABBED in 1996 by a woman who didn't want me and the cops to take her boyfriend to the Psych E/R, and I get BEATEN by assorted loonies all the time in this job...but at least we got good dental...
Heh. Well, in my case (I'll show it off for anyone sick enough to be INTERESTED) I got shot from a ricochet off a Bronx sidewalk intended for a moron across the street who balled someone else's lady. It landed and hit the "meat" on my RIGHT leg, ONE INCH below the jewels. Still have a wee bit of the remnants of the original scar.
*WE* trained Usama - he had the BEST of Reagan era "guerilla training" and was HIRED by the GOP to pester the Russkies. Like so many that came BACK from war, but were phucked up in the head, so went Usama ... he is a monster of AMERICA'S creation. Any wonder why the boy has a Viagra for us? But I digress. In the GREATER scheme of mass anihilation, they can't TOUCH what the Russkies could have done to us. Let's get real here. Yes, he can take victims. But in the greater scheme of things, it's a PITTANCE.
The DUCT TAPE and the PLASTIC SHEETS (as opposed to pure white, I s'pose) is NONSENSE ... yes, NYC is the intended target ... until these morons realize that taking out ***ATLANTA*** will garner them ***FAR*** more "terror" (after all, the rest of the US don't give a RAT'S ASS about NYC, but if it happens in ATLANTA, it's REAL NEWS! :)
If the terrorists had brains, they'd be wiping out GEORGIA ... it'd at least get more than a YAWN out of CNN ...
Morons. :(
IOW, who's looking out for the passengers?
At least on the ferry there are life preservers under each seat ;-)
Which, in all honesty, will be pretty useless. The best hope, if the ferry is sinking, is that the coastguard will be able to tow the ferry to port or another ferry will be able to get the passengers off.
Survivability in 30-35° water is short!
Still it is safer when removing passangers from a disabled ferry that they wear PFD's in case they fall in during the trasnfer to another ship.
9 time out of 10 in a man over board from the ferry, its is the ferry crew that reaches the person before any shorebased rescue can get to the scene. THere has even been an incidient where a passanger witness an overboard and threw a life vest (not the life ring located at the ends of the boat) to the person. In the best case it marked where the overboard person was.
Needless to say it is the law the ferry carries those PFD's just like all the cruise ships go through the drill each trip. Imagine if you had to do that on the ferry every trip.
Best hope for a sinking SI Ferry is to aim it at one of the "parking lots" in the harbor, where the water is appreciably less deep than in the main channel, then move everyone to the upper decks.
They should have ordered the R142/3 fleet with an NBC overpressure system. An overpressurization system is a relitively cheap way of protecting vehicles against nasty agents. All you need is a really powerful blower that sucks in air frm the outside, pushes it through a MBC filter and then into the body of the vehicle. Any holes in the vehicle will have the air flowing OUT of them (because of the interrior overpressure). Of course opening the doors would probably make the system far less effective.
Could one of the TA people do me a favor when they pick up their mask? Tell me if you get an oxygen tank with it. If not, Peter Rosa's right -- you're covered for smell and some of the large dust.
As a kid I found the cold war pretty entertaining, but this is running a close second. When it warms up a little I'll be right down there on the front lines with you infantrymen, er, T/O's and C/R's. Unless Osama has the consideration to bring the war to New Rochelle.
Don't Tread on Westchester!
The Gov. made the T.A. issue the masks after seeing the report on channel 7 news earlier this week.
>>> The Gov. made the T.A. issue the masks after seeing the report on channel 7 news earlier this week. <<<
Did they include injectable Atropine with the masks?
Tom
I'm wondering how the T.A. got 9,000 masks within 3 days.
National Liquidators
or Russian Army Surplus
Or US Army Surplus -- left over from World War I....those'll be reliable for sure :)
At the cheapest price. Hope they're not like condoms with holes!
We'll let you know when we get them.
Well, now I know where to get a gasmask, if needed!
avid
And you know? Seriously, that was EXACTLY the scenario I envisioned. Conductor dons mask and everyone in view *WANTS IT NOW* ... now what? :(
This madness could likely escalate into train crews REQUIRED to have a sidearm. Entrepreneurs wandering the trains selling plastic sheet and duct tape instead of batteries. Yeesh.
You guys should have had gas masks for years! I mean the funk from some of the homeless can make you physically sick....
Seriously, this is a distraction. There are agents out there (it took me 5 minutes to find this on the Internet), which can kill through skin absorption. Oh, and by the way, these agents are relatively easy to synthesise.
So, in addition to your gas mask, your average conductor and train operator is going to carry the plastic wrap and duct tape?!
The train crews (and everybody else) need to have MOPP suits (those "body bags with windows" you see FDNY's Haz Mat teams wear) and an atropine auto-injection kit (Atropine is a nerve gas antagonist), PLUS duct tape to seal up places where gaps in the suit appear, like sleeve/glove and leg/boot areas. What a wonderful world we live in, huh?
My feeling is that with the Space Shuttle program now on hold, NYCT could buy up all the surplus NASA spacesuits and give them out to T/Os and C/Rs for the ultimate in protection against airborne contaminents. BTW, there should be 'scrub' rooms setup at all terminals (perhaps an airlock for decontamination of all TA crews).
Geez ... and up to now, I'd been admiring your sanity. :(
Germ-free rooms (with hot and cold running BEER) available ... :)
Me too!!! :)
You know where we are, four steins still eft in the keg tonight, but it's going fast. :)
Seriously, bro ... when the temps up here get back to what you can stand, a few nights in our "digs" would be JUSt the ticket to whatever "ales" ya ... a promise, you'll never stand upright again after a few days HERE. Heh.
You know I'll take you up on that offer. I can even make it up there on a full tank a gas (now that I don't have the '69 anymore :)
I can even make it up there on a full tank [of] gas ...
Eat some more beans, you can make the round trip :-)
Seriously, I could make the round trip run from Eatontown on a full tank in the Windstar... 24+ mpg on the highway, 25 gallon tank, you do the math. The Ranchero, on the other hand, only gets 19-20 on the highway, and has a 20 gallon tank with an erratic gauge... I'd probably stop in Kingston each direction just to make sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
New land speed record, ***STILL*** awake since an even NASTIER piece of internet screw-ware was released ... new record for ME though, a FIFTY HOUR DAY without any sleep! Serious stuff, but we covered the nastiest of nasties for the few who pay our bills here.
Yeah, know what Klysler tanks were worth, owned a 500... and those were the MISERS. Heh. But yeah, yo and yo, I and I ... your buns are welcome up here once the ice is gone and you can actually SUCCESSFULLY crawl up our hill again. Heh. No Saint Bernards HERE, the bar is open 24/7, whenever the hades you shape up. Moo!
Serioously, you and any OTHER hardcore foamettes gotta come up here, ain't got no traction motors, ain't got no control stands, but got BVE, you're GARAUNTEED tight pantalones. :)
And NOBODY goes way from our Corporate HQ unhappy *OR* unfulfilled, except for Bill Gates. F00k him. Moo.
You Da Man! :)
Its a possibility in the future and a Hazmat suit to top it off :-|. I think people ARE WAY TOO WORRIED about this terrorism stuff in the subways, I'm cautious but NOT afraid; these people have nothing better to do and they want us to have fear!
A little smoke in Penn from an everyday track fire, everybody thinks it's OBL and goes apespit storming the exits...As a co-worker said recently "I long for the days of sick jobs..."
Wouldn't it be better to put a gas mask in each cab? This way the X/X isn't burdned with another piece of heavy, breakable equipment that can be easily forgotten.
For a mask to work it has to fit properly and be tested for leaks.
You can't just hang them in a cab and don it quickly then adjust it and hope it fits.
I assume the TA is doing fit tests when employees are given the mask and training them how to put it on quickly, correctly and properly.
Sorry for my previous, but for someone as old as you are (and are many OTHERS here) while I admire the "feel good" nonsense of this move, I *STILL* can't get over it in terms of when the Russkies were going to nuke us all to hell without warning, and the response of THIS being anywhere CLOSE to what we all lived with (those of us in our 40's, 50's or later) as an every day way of life.
As much as the GOP wants to sell "YOU'RE GOING TO DIE! NEENER NEENER!" I just can't get over how ANY of this compares to being wiped off the planet in a NUCULAR holocaust! SHAME ON EVERYBODY! :(
Just remember to 'Duck Tape 'n Cover'! That's the new slogan for this generation..LOL!
When you think about it, it's really sad. I propose, if *I* get erected, DOUBLE LAYER OVERNIGHT DEPENDS for EVERYBODY! If you're gonna GO, best to go where nobody notices. Quack. :)
Double Quack! :)
Heh. PUT DOWN DA QUACK PIPE! NOW, mister. :)
First it was moo, now quack. What next?:) Bow-wow?
No....Meow!
ROTFLMAO
"Baaaaa-aaaaaa." :)
As in Baaaah Humbug?
Maybe they should Duct tape the gas masks to their faces, while wrapping the cab with plastic wrap…of course there is then the small asphyxiation problem…
I don’t know but if I were an Al Qaeda terrorist, I would be rolling on the floor LMAO!
John
I don’t know but if I were an Al Qaeda terrorist, I would be rolling on the floor LMAO!
I glad you're not. Otherwise we would hated you. Proud to be an American :)
It would be silly if it weren't so sad, y'know...and to think this is insulting to the intelligence of DUCKS...Ok, OK, I'll put down the QUACK PIPE...
Yeah, it's contagious....Quack! Quack! :)
We'd better go back to mooing. Or neener-neenering.:)
Would a motorman actually have enough time to put on a mask? Let's say all of a sudden he encounters a "cloud". By the time he can bring the train to a stop, it could be too late to do any good.
Holy Mackeral Andy!!!! I'll have to find the time to read all the postings. I have experience with MSHA equipment through agricultural work. Little story: Car Inspectors are exposed to all kinds of particles, dusts, fumes and toxic materiels. We had been issued half face masks with two (purple) filters but they were pulled because we were told that training was required in their use and understanding when you about to 'pass out.' The 'Z-90' filter masks were also pulled but returned for use as they are not considered 'respirators.'
They were reissued but I cannot use them properly as they have no 'exhale valve' and suffered from heat exhaustion. TrainDude is very correct in selecting proper respirator filters and 'off the shelf' for CBR is pretty insignificant when selecting protection.
One step further: this is not small/medium/large shirts. MSHA tests for proper fitting include a 'lamp black smoke test' which, when the mask is removed, indicates points of atmospheric leakage. The 'rescue
hood' which NYPD will carry is not a proper respirator and has a usable cannister life of minutes. The bottom line is how and when the use of life sustaining respirators are to be used...most masks have limited visibility and place a strain on bodily functions. Once the seal on the filter can is broken, it is considered expired whether exposed to airborne toxins or not. The mask only prevents respiration of airborne toxins and NOT to anything that will enter the skin. I do have a well made carbon filled CBR suit but again, its use and the mask requires proper application AND the proper alarm.
It is important for train crews and station personel to have the ability to remain concious and alert to insure passenger and system safety but it is my opinion that 'the cart is being placed ahead of the horse.' The act of an arsonist in a Seoul suburban subway highlights this. CI Peter
Got on an R-42 "L" train at Livonia Avenue last night around 2040. Three railfans were at the RFW talking to the T/O. I only rode to the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue, (going home) but were any SubTalkers railfanning the L?
You missed me buy one train. I was the 2031 from Bedford Ave, you must have been on the 2046. I had a R143 for that trip.
Robert
I rode the 3 section L yesterday [see my post on it] and I saw the R42 on the section from Bedford-Rockaway Parkway yesterday but I was heading toward Canarsie on a R143 and that was around 7:15pm.
R42 4698 Shuttle train 1
R42 4717 Shuttle train 2
R143 8144 (L)
Looking at recent orders for railcars for worldwide properties on mass transit mag's website, I've noticed that if an order was not given to Bombardier, it was given to Alstom. Most of the orders went to Bombardier. If Bombardier builds shit for us in NYC, why are they doing such good business, overall?
As far as I know, they are world renowed. They are one of the leaders in transportation industry.
And I forgot to add, unfortunately, why is Bombardier a monopoly? That have plenty of competition from the likes of Kawasaki and Alsthom so they sure are not.
Alstom and Bombardier tend to work together a LOT, Kawasaki isn't interested in very large orders, so I can see that there is a sort of "karetsu" coming together here. While they're not all connected at the hip, there is that "cartel" quality coming together ... Bombardier's cars contained Alstom components and Alstom's cars will contain Bombardier and Kawasaki components is what I mean here. It IS becoming one big happy Star fleet ...
Well, what can you do? I can't think of any other real major transportation manufacturers.
Breda, CAF, Kinki-Sharyo,
are any of the R68 builders still around?
Great, but what really matters is who the MTA makes deals with.
That's why all those mentioned companies are out of business, right?
Don't forget Siemens. My cell phone is made by Siemens, do ou think if I hook up my phone with a Siemens vehicle, I could control it? I always wondered what "Sbwy mode" meant :-)
Yeah, but ask any power generation folks and motor folks, theirs rotate backwards. :)
"Don't forget Siemens"
They are building the MBTA's Blue Line order. -Nick
Bombardier's equipment generally does VERY well *IF* the contracting authority goes with Bombardier's designs and doesn't screw with it too much. MTA and AMTRAK are the exceptions to the rule unfortunately. You don't hear horror stories in many other locations around the planet.
"You don't hear horror stories in many other locations around the planet."
Yeah, this is definitely the case with the 01800 series order for the MBTA's Red Line fleet. I wasn't there for delivery in 1993 and 1994, but apparently only minor glitches occured back then. Currently they are probably the best cars the MBTA owns to date. -Nick
Bombardier's equipment generally does VERY well *IF* the contracting authority goes with Bombardier's designs and doesn't screw with it too much. MTA and AMTRAK are the exceptions to the rule unfortunately. You don't hear horror stories in many other locations around the planet.
The counter example being AirTrain. :-)
Point taken, but the jury's still out on what atually happened there ...
Its interesting you brought this up. The three main companies out there is Alstom, Kawasaki and Bombardier and I think since BOMBADIER made the successful R62A in the 80's, all they cared about is getting the money and produced less quality in their train cars; just my opinion. They have success in other areas but Amtrak & NYCT got shitted on since the MTA paid them about $1 billion for the R142 which I thought was silly and way TOO HIGH! As for Amtrak, I don't know but it seemed like the Acela trains was a slap dash job and don't forget about the Air Train disaster, *THAT TOO* used Bombardier cars.
The Airtrain being made by Bombardier is an irrelevant point when it comes to that. I believe it was found that the driver was going too fast? Who has the information?
The car looked kinda cheap to me but it happened at high speed [or so we heard]. Well we weren't there so we can't tell what ACTUALLY happened, we can only go by speculation. Now from what I've seen here in the past, that IS a possibility but it was also said that the concrete blocks used to simulate passengers shifted and caused the accident.
that IS a possibility but it was also said that the concrete blocks used to simulate passengers shifted and caused the accident.
Eees Possible.... but then again... Passengers are not tied down, and will shift with too many Gs on the corners. So the Train SHOULD HAVE handled the loads as they were.
Elias
But passengers have hands and arms, generally, so they won't shift as much. Concrete blocks don't have means of balancing themselves. A fairer test probably would involve a bunch of sandbags dangling from the ceiling or some loaded Segway Human Transporters (front end against the wall, of course, or wheels locked in place so they balance but don't move.)
That would be an interesting use for a Segway.
Bomba tested R142s with secured welded plates to simulate load carrying capacity. AirTrain was stupid mistake using concrete blocks that shifted...or was it???? CI Peter
Goes to show you that management over at bobardier don't share information and past exprerience.
Why would one team realize that unsecured loads is not the way to go.
In the r-142 testing it they may have used the welded plates at the MTA's suggestion.
Were welded plate's used to simulate loads on R62/68/110
I understand welded plates or trainset wheels are a standard for simulating passenger loads. They are firmly secured. Loose concrete blocks sim passengers is stupidity.
its all rumors. he went round the curve at 50 mph. the curve was designed for under 25. the blocks shifted when the train derailed. then one of them flew and hit him in his knees. died of shock
I believe it was found that the driver was going too fast? Who has the information?
There have been no official findings from the NTSB yet. They should come out in the next 6 months.
i do. i know the family. he was going too fast around the corner. plus he wasn't trained for the engineering and testing the train. he was just a customer service rep. for the Port Authority. so, because of that, the family is suing the P.A.
"i know the family. he was going too fast around the corner. plus he wasn't trained for the engineering and testing the train. "
Do you know this for a fact? Does this come from the investigation, or is this something the family told you?
Not to minimize their tragic loss, but their attorneys may have encouraged them to say that, whether or not it was really true.
I'm willing to see what the investigation turns up. In the meantime, it's not helpful to spread rumors like that around, which could be hurtful of people at Bombardier who may not deserve it. Even in the worst of circumstances, two wrongs don't make a right.
I agree, you have to be VERY careful on what you say b/c it could come back and haunt you. We'll just have to wait & see what the official investigation shows.
yes i know this for a fact. if i didn't, i wouldn't tell you. i was with another friend that are always around the family because the guy who died in the accident went to school with her. i dropped her at the house the victim's family a month ago because she had to pick a few presents and stuff that his mother got for her mother. they invited me in, then i remembered who he was and who they was. we all went to the same church, they all went to the family cook outs. and the guy who died in the wreck, i knew him faintly but remembered him when my friend recalled the time when me her, the guy and my cousin went to the movies a long time ago and had all that fun doing shit afterwards. after i remembered, i told them sorry i felt. later talking to the friend she told me that they are after the P.A. because of they had her son working a position he wasn't trained for. and thats all i can tell you.
"yes i know this for a fact. if i didn't, i wouldn't tell you."
Your post just confirmed for me that you don't know anything at all.
"i was with another friend that are always around the family because the guy who died in the accident went to school with her. i dropped her at the house the victim's family a month ago because she had to pick a few presents and stuff that his mother got for her mother. they invited me in, then i remembered who he was and who they was. we all went to the same church, they all went to the family cook outs"
All of which doesn't add up to a hill of beans. So you don't know the family. You are a "friend of a friend" of the family - maybe.
"later talking to the friend she told me that they are after the P.A. because of they had her son working a position he wasn't trained for. and thats all i can tell you. "
So most likely you were fed a line of bullshit by somebody and you took it as gospel truth. Nice going, dude.
actually no. i do know them. i knew them through a friend of a friend and i knew because i met them a long time ago. of course it sounds like bull because i don't want to share everything with you. its really none of everybody's business. i just told you some of the facts that i was told and what i thought it was ok to share. and what i told you all up in the last post is the only proof that i am acquainted with them.call me a liar. say that i am just hype. all i can tell you is wait and see, then then you will know that i am telling you the real deal. then after that you won't here from me again. fed up with this site and some of the people in it. it just makes think why the fuck i come here and share info with people in here. this is the last i ever do this. pointless shit this is.
"actually no. i do know them. i knew them through a friend of a friend and i knew because i met them a long time ago. of course it sounds like bull because i don't want to share everything with you. its really none of everybody's business."
I agree with you there. And if it isn't, then why post it here?
"and what i told you all up in the last post is the only proof that i am acquainted with them.call me a liar. say that i am just hype. all i can tell you is wait and see, then then you will know that i am telling you the real deal."
I'm not saying you're lying. I think it's veryy unlikely the investigation will characterize the young man's employment the way you did. However, if it does, so be it.
But your description doesn't support your knowing a lot of relevant specifics.
of course it doesn't. it may come off that way because i don't want to give off to much info. i do know much more but i just am not allowing myself to tell anymore for many other reasons that are serious.
irresponsible rumors is what you are getting from everybody else. and it makes me sorry that i told you and everyone else when i always get the same shit of " i don't know what i am talking about" and i make up shit". well i'll just not say anything. i will just not contribute anymore here. now you have one less person to beat up and accuse about rumors.
I didn't say you made it up - only that you didn't evaluate it critically.
thats always the case with me. my stuff always comes up vague. last time i got ridiculed and my intelligence challenged because of it so i am gonna come off defensive. its the main reason i hardly comeback here or i just read posted conversation and don't say anything. it makes no point if i can get fair treatment or respect.
"last time i got ridiculed and my intelligence challenged because of it so i am gonna come off defensive."
Allow me to be very specific: I have no reason to believe you are of lower intelligence, and I believe you have the same right to post here as anybody else.
But, at this moment, I do believe your post had no credibility. Since you cannot or will not (your choice) provide verifiable evidence, I will not change my opinion.
If the NTSB or the PA come out later and say (not in these exact words, maybe) "Bombardier took a customer service rep and let him joy-ride AirTrain," then I will believe you.
well i won't knock you for your opinion then. but thats what i said earlier. wait and see. and most likely i will be right. and also thats the last i am saying anything in here regardless. i will just watch posted conversation
And Siemens, too -- in Sacramento, they are currently building cars for El Tren Metro in Puerto Rico. I was up at the Tehachapi Loop two weeks ago and saw two of them on flatcars in a Union Pacific train heading east.
If Bombardier builds shit for us in NYC, why are they doing such good business, overall?
Because other contracts allow the work to be completed in Canada, not in pseudo New York by underskilled pesants who do not know a wrench from a winch!
(Or so it would seem to us)
: (
Good point, building high tech rail vehicles is not like making knock off Nike T-shirts. I'm all for creating jobs in NY but I can understand why their may be problems when you require a contractor to set up a new plant and hire a new work force for an order of rail cars. Sinking the large amounts required to build a factory or convert an existing one for a single order (even a large one like the MTA) doesn't seem like too wise a way to go. Yes, the politiians will bask in the glow of the jobs created (even if they may not be permenant), but what are the consequences? A few that come to mind:
(I'm using Bombardier as an example here, I would think these factors would apply to any builder)
- Bombardier has to hire and train most of the worker for the NY plant. I'm sure some manangers, supervisors and senior workers from the established assembly line will help get things started, but you are mostly working with a staff that have little experience.
-Logistics need to be worked out, rail cars are large and getting them off the plant when built and delivered to the purchaser takes some planning. At the home plant, that is already taken care of. Also, delivery of supplies for building the cars need to be set up.
-Manufacturing plants are expensive. At the home assembly facility, the plant will be used for orders for decades. The depreication of the facility is spread out over many orders. Since the NY plant built for the one order, has no future; it's fixed costs must written off on the one contract. This increase costs.
Too bad the upstate morons, I mean, politicians, in Albany won't see it that way.
Because other contracts allow the work to be completed in Canada, not in pseudo New York by underskilled pesants who do not know a wrench from a winch!
(Or so it would seem to us)
Thats not true, us Underskilled employees from upstate New York build qualitly rail cars. We are all trained and skilled in each task that is preformed in the process of building these cars. I rip them apart and put them back together daily. MAking sure they work before they ship them out is the only thing I truly care about. I have heard that the R-142's run better now is because the Workers On TT have learned that you need laptops to figure out whats going on, not just banging on it will make it work any longer. Making the trains ROLL.
"Thats not true, us Underskilled employees from upstate New York build qualitly rail cars."
Oh really? Then why don't they work?
"Oh really? Then why don't they work?"
I believe his post claims that transit maintenance workers do not follow manufacturers' instructions in diagnosing and fixing problems.
This is a statement worth examining. When car and truck makers introduced computerized fuel injection systems, air suspensions and other computer controls, mechanics not properly trained on them did make things worse instead of better.
Repair work these days consists in part of reading and interpreting data. That's true of cars, and even true of homes. My brand new United Technologies furnace, installed in Philadelphia, has a back-pressure sensor. If exhaust is blocked for any reason, the sensor will automatically shut down the system (to prevent carbon monoxide from killing everybody in the house) and issue an error code on a display panel.
But you have to know to read the error code and what it means and how to respond to it.
Don't blow off what he's saying. He just taught you something.
OnTheJuice has stated numerous times that he's spent many hours fixing "loosely torqued hardware, assembled by someone who didn't know how, or just didn't care". The TA has been very slow getting the computers, which CI's like OnTheJuice would use to interrogate the equipment. You could check his past posts, to see what he's said on this issue.
OnTheJuice is also a master of hyperbole.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Roninbayside hit the nail right on the head. Sensors control relays,digtal data sends signals. One system depends on another. Once the basic understanding is grounded, these trains will work better then the MTA wanted.
"The TA has been very slow getting the computers, which CI's like OnTheJuice would use to interrogate the equipment."
Meaning that the TA is partly to blame for maintenance issues on the R142. This does not mean Bombardier is blameless.
"You could check his past posts, to see what he's said on this issue."
I have. But you just posted CI Peter's comments and ignored a big chunk of the message. It shows that you've jumped to a conclusion without considering all the facts.
OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH!
TA has NOTHING to do with many of the maintainance problems of R142 trainsets. Bombardier and its vendors have gone far out of their way to secure control of documentation, parts procurement and upgrades/system implementation. I want a laptop with up to date software to interrogate all systems when I do troubles/special inspections. I want to be able to tell my supervisors of a problem and instruct my crewmates for servicing. If I find a mechanical part that is broken, I do not want to play 'ring around the rosies' with the vendors....I want that trainset to be fixed with a fifteen cent part and go back into RTO. We find parts installed loosly that compromises passenger and system safety...stuff that could have been fixed with a screwdriver or a adjustable wrench in a moment. TAs hands have been tied by vendors trying to maintain a financial hold after warranty expiration and I won't get into that. As taxpayers, all of us have paid for these R142 trainsets and they should by now work flawlessly, especially as the warranty is expiring. I am told that we get 'garunteed work' out of this....the reality is that proper trainset maintainance garuntees work for everyone. The crews do their best and the biggest concern is that IF you miss some error that was made in assembly, you will lose your job if the trainset was involved in an accident and be haunted and hunted all the days of your life. BTW: todays 'pick' places me in my present assignment for another year in 'troubles/backfill/special inspections.' I can 'plague' engineering and supervision with my many inquiries...TrainDude gets another year of reprieve from me. CI Peter
I'm sorry, but your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
In the first place, how many R142s are old enough to be out of warranty?
In the second place, it is highly unlikely that MTA would be held hostage by any vendor. MTA's history with vendors usually shows the opposite to be true.
This does not mean that what you are seeing doesn't happen. But you're clearly not in a position where you see patterns of occurences all over the TA.
In the second place, it is highly unlikely that MTA would be held hostage by any vendor. MTA's history with vendors usually shows the opposite to be true.
Cubic?
Bombardier has problems...warranty periods sucessively expire upon trainsets entered into service. Basic warranty was two years (read fine print.) TA had plans to hire former Bombardier employees as 'New Train Technology Specialists' but I think Mayor Bloomberg
'threw in the Monkey Wrench that preserves our work.' If Bombardier fails, modifications/upgrades will go to Car Inspectors who lost their positions in the last 'pick.' Grumman/Flexible buses held TA 'hostage' until they were dumped. R142 contract was much bigger
and resulted in Redbird sinkings. I buried hundreds of Redbirds...I reinspected a few and returned them to RTO service. CI Peter
BTW: As time goes on, we get TA instructions on maintainance which may or may not be correct. When I had the R142 intro course, I was far advanced of anything presented. Today, I'm far behind because of not having continuous exposure. The #5 crew finds 'stupid stuff' overlooked by texts. Inspection is not by the book but eye sighting and hands on...there are no trouble codes for what we find because the whole trainset could seperate before any sensor responds! Trains are still 'nuts and bolts.' CI Peter
So then why does the TA not provide you with what you need?
I would look first to your management for answers to that, and then to Bombardier.
It's a serious environment with considerations of employing ex-Bombardier employees as 'New Train Technology Specialists.' This title threatens TA employees. My supervisors do their best in getting us what we need to keep trainsets in operation. I go to the Deputy Superintendents to inform them of 'wanting parts demanding quantity.' This is TA, not private industry. It's not like I can go to a supplier for parts....I just make suggestions to management for
what I see is needed. When a trainset needs a critical part, it is highly unlikely that Bombardier or its vendors has it available. CI Peter
i am sorry if i come off harsh. GET A LIFE ALL OF Y'ALL!!! just be damn happy there is new subway cars that now run and get ya asses from point A TO B. yes you have all reason to express your opinions which is excellent but NO body has fact in here about it. not even me. not even the TA workers in here. it's just all convoluted shit that nobody will suss out. so get over it. whether what happened or what not happened just get over it. its old. move on and be happy
Now, this was a bit much. ( Frowns, and wags finger)
Arriba la Raza.
(Couldn't resist-- I've been speaking MUCH too much spanish
for my own good these days.)
Tho MEGA's points to ponder have been offered mucha times
before by otro philosophers and miembros on este board and
unfortunately, it's still not registering con todos.
Sorry, no speaky the Spanglish :-)
All right. That's it. Oye. De que "raza" te habla? La Raza humano? Let's get real here. "La Raza" is a thinly disguised racist phrase. And nope, if it ain't cool for "white folks" to say something like "Whites Only", then it surely ain't cool for, let's say, "Hispanic Folks" to say what amounts to a racially tinged cheer for "our people".
Like, don't you turn around and do what you would scold me for doing. (Here, the "you" and "me" are metaphorical.) Or else "I'm" gonna figure you trying to get over on me. Any time I hear someone say La Raza my "warning of impending racial conflict" senses get active. I'm thinking: "Oh geeze, NOW I'm gonna have to get into something here? Here, while I'm just minding my own stinkin' business...I gotta worry, or at least contemplate having to become involved with some righteous racist fool?"
Y no se ovida....son muchos de nosotros Nortenos quien habla su idioma....y sabemos loque esta pasando. Soy uno Norteno...con orgullo!!
But by me saying I'm a "northerner", notice I say nothing about my so-called race. Or as I like to think of it: El Milagro del Norte.
Anyway, back to the trains....
of course it wouldn't register with others. its okay though . i don't give a shit. my shit is either too complex or too stupid. but atleast i speak my mind.
any carry on with thing y'all do in here.
i'm out
Please don't do that ;-).
Yo mieda de weeda!!! When you finally settle into TA work, you learn that you cannot reform a square wheel. I do special work and inspections on R142s unless I'm called to replace an absent inspector.
I've been chewed out by supervisors for making repairs that they would have wanted work orders written up to be done by vendors. NOW the supervisors know why I have made personal efforts to learn and do the work on my own...Bombardier will eventually bail out and the work MUST be done by qualified Car Inspectors. My crew has been decimated by the last union pick and TA loses the most experienced to chopping up Redbirds at 207th. This weekend, the crew gets OT on the last Redbirds. Would you wait twenty minutes for a crowded R142 or hop into an R142 with available seating in five???? What you may see as stupid and simple as a unlocked biparting door is a a hazard to passenger and system safety. A broken door, failed HVAC, stuck brake or LCU warning pulls the five or ten pack out of service and YOU stand upon the platform bitching about the wait.
BTW: In Europe where Bombardier maintains trainsets directly for governmental entities, train troubles that pull a set out of RTO
directly costs Bombardier for the loss of revenue and the crew is fined from their salaries. CI peter
So we should privatize the subway and hire Bombardier to run it (they will be running AirTrain)??
i understand. yet they got to cut costs at the expense of others. its been going on so long and nobody can stop it. so i don't give 2 shitz. all the equipment run with snags and niggles if i am not wrong (usually i always am to some suns o' biotches in here who think there is a Ph.D for this and think they achieved it) oh, and i don't really bitch and moan about waiting for the train anymore. for 22 years i experienced it so i have adapted to the lousy subway system. yet it is still more reliable than a car from 6 to 9 am and from 3 to 830 pm.
jeez....for someone that doesn't give a crap....u sure sound like u do....
i always sound the opposite of why i say but frankly i don't care really.
You do realize that every time you post a new message you are either apologizing for speaking badly or complaining about how no one understands you? Maybe if you made any sense in the first place you would not have as much to complain about?
well i am taking the second thing(what you said in your post) of i complain that nobody understand me (in here). in other places, i do make sense,and its funny i don't here. and seeing that my points wasted energy of posting in here is so that i decided (i don't think i told you) that i am not going to post in here anymore. i will either just read other posts or stop patronizing the sight altogether like i was doing for how many months. i thought it would change a little in here about trying share thoughts with people in here from my last (BOMBO CLAAT!!!)incident but it got worse for me when i started posting again.(or so i think) so i am stopping once and for all (which i am doing. i just decided to respond to your post)
Thank you for responding. I'm sorry that you don't feel that you are understood in this forum. I hope that you can find a place that is more suited to you.
Take care.
B
While eveyone beats around the bush, let me say that I agree with you. BOMBARDIER & KAWASAKI have done satisfactory jobs.
Let's hope that Alstom (or Alsthom?) does an equally great job with the bulk of the R160 order.
The latter is correct.
Alstom? I thought we were BOYCOTTING France? How UNPATRIOTIC.
"GOING TO WAR WITHOUT FRANCE IS LIKE GOING DEER HUNTING WITHOUT YOUR ACCORDIAN."
- DONALD RUMSFELD
R142s are assembled, not built. Screw a screw, turn a bolt, tighten a nut. Out the door to 'acceptance' and on the rail. It's just amazing what the crew finds during 'first inspection.' Redbird Tech is always in your face.....problems with R142s may be hidden behind software or transducers. R142 undercar...you are checking tread brake shoes. One truck has four OK shoes...the other has four worn shoes. Now you need trainset/car history. Was a truck replaced and the other not or did some incident happen that control systems 'ate the shoes.' 'Putzville' assembled trainsets. CI Peter
The four shoes that are good are the shoes that are on the motor truck I bet. The worn shoes have to be on the trailer truck or dummy axles. The motor trucks use dynamic braking And the inshot pressure on the tbu is only going to by about 8psi on the motor trucks at a full service stop. The trailer trucks will be at most 33 psi during a full service stop. Dynamic braking is reostatic (car resistors) or regenative(fead back to the rail). I would think that this is just normal tread wear Why would the car history matter. What are some of the things that are found during First inspection of the train sets?
The problem is more experience building the particular product. If the politico's in albany can keep steady orders coming to the upstate plant, quility will improve.
I think that Bombardier recently bought out Astlom, or anounced its intention to do so. Can anyone confirm this?
No, they bought ADtranz, Alstom is still its own company based in France.
"If Bombardier builds shit for us in NYC, why are they doing such good business, overall? "
You may want to re-examine your assumptions here. It's common practice for Subtalkers to throw rocks at all kinds of people, companies etc. when they don't conform to stereotypic viewpoints.
Some Subtalkers have good knowledge of the cars and how they behave, since they work as T/O's or in maintenance or as supervision. They do see legitimate problems, though they may not be ready to accept their employer's responsibility in helping cause them. Others who do this may not know anything about the subway cars in reality. And then there are the R-9 fanatics. :0)
In the first place, Bombardier does not build "shit." Very large fleets are now in service with NYC Transit and other carriers,and they, by andlarge, perform rather well; Bombardier cars do seem to have more teething problems than other makes, but that does not make the others perfect.
The M7's are entering service with LIRR, and Bombardier really does appear to have its act together there. Funny you didn't consider that.
Second, NYC Transit needs to accept responsibility for its share of problems. The R142 shares a lot with its MBTA Red Line cousin in Boston. I've ridden those trains too - they entered service in the 1990's, and the biggest problem I've seen with them is the stop announcement system occasionally was out of step by one stop. Annoying, but if that is the worst problem, I wouldn't complain too much.
So why do the Red Line cars work well and the New York ones have more trouble? Same manufacturer. Maybe NYC Transit management has trouble working with manufacturers (demands for design changes, spec. regulations etc.??). The manufacturers, eager not to lose the biggest US customer (and one of the biggest in the world), tries to work things out, but problems arise.
Look at Amtrak and the Acela. Both sides are at fault; Amtrak's management kept changing the specs on the train and the manufacturer did not pay attention to quality control.
It takes two to tango. I wish that a Bombardier rep would post here on Subtalk, so at least we'd be able to examine the manufacturer's viewpoint as well. This does not mean Bombardier is right, or wrong. It does mean that Subtalk doesn't get enough diffferent viewpoints on this subject from people who know what they're talking about.
Sure hope you're not including THIS Arnine patriot among the collection of naysayers about Bombardiers ... granted, the ones build in NYS *do* seem to have their fair share of problems, but I for one an acutely aware of their success in OTHER locations. Seems that Thunderbay DOES manage to build railcars respected the world over, must be Paturkey and Bruno. Whooops, I slipped, gotta drop out and call my "sobriety buddy". :)
I hear you...
It DOES bother me, the Bombardier bashing ... I've SEEN and RIDDEN their works in OTHER places, and they DO work. Something's seriously wrong with the isolated cases, and having spoken to people who KNOW what went on in the bidding process, the specifications WERE made stupid in terms of what Bombardier BUILT *to* those specifications. I've also seen the memos of "we told you so" when sheet went to shinola. :)
Sometimes the MANUFACTURER has a clue, bidders SHOULD listen and not demand stupid counterproductive specs. :(
If a bidder doesn't LIKE what the manufacturer tells them is the prudent thing to do, the bidder SHOULD find someone else stupid enough to build it. But in MTA's situation, as well as Amtrak's, I've talked to folks in Thunder Bay about it and they said, "we told them this was a dumb idea, but they insisted - OK, we build, but we TOLD them what would happen." Can't argue THAT ...
And so far, even the most bigoted courts have agreed. "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" ...
Yeah, BBD CAN build some beautiful things like the Talent,but It wouldn't look so bad on them when Kawasaki can build to IDENTICAL specs and still have a (consistently) FULLY operational product.
Don't be so quick on using 'consistent' in Kawasaki's case. Weren't there break issues with their cars?
Oh yeah, the one R142A that ruptured a brake pipe vs. the two R142's that pulled apart...
Well, that shows that Kawasaki doesn't make perfect cars either.
Agreed.
There are cases where a manufacturer proposes a truly radical design which relies upon new technologies never used before, new processes never used before, new building techniques never tried before. That can cause problems.
Case in point: the F-14 Tomcat. My wife worked on the software for that airplane once upon a time. In 1972, when the first prototype flew, it was like nothing anyone had ever seen before.
Grumman proposed an aircraft with a computerized swing wing, a high-output radar with software modes (based on an 8080 processor) never seen before, manufacturing techniques (greater use of titanium, punching posts directly into wings or fuselage) never used before, and new technology engines which were late to arrive (so older TF-30's were used initially).
Result? While the test prototype showed its potential very early, production airplanes crashed due to the TF-30 engine's compressor stalls, there were software glitches; the Phoenix missile system needed a lot of tuning, etc. etc. The press was aghast. They called it a lemon.
But fast forward the videotape about 5 years: Top Gun pilots loved it, it flew better than anything the Russians had, and once the new engines arrived, no one on the planet could touch them in air-air combat.
The R142 is not radically new, so Bombardier really can't use that excuse. But given some time for debugging, it will work out very well. It's already a big hit with passengers. And that's what's really important.
In the case of the R142's. The although similar trains were built elsewhere by Bombardier. The Upstate NY factory was new and it's production staff made a lot of rookie mistakes.
Chysler had the same problem with the dodge neon model. Neon made in a factory which was operating for nearly 50 years had far fewer problem then the neons made at the brand new mexican facility. It takes time to get something new working correctly.
voiceofreason posted:
The Upstate NY factory was new and it's production staff made a lot of rookie mistakes.
Interesting assessment. Is this the reason for all of the issues with the R142's in the past? I'm pretty sure Bombardier won't repeat them, given their general track record.
"In the case of the R142's. The although similar trains were built elsewhere by Bombardier. The Upstate NY factory was new and it's production staff made a lot of rookie mistakes.
Chysler had the same problem with the dodge neon model. Neon made in a factory which was operating for nearly 50 years had far fewer problem then the neons made at the brand new mexican facility. It takes time to get something new working correctly."
OK, that I can believe. And you cited an excellent example.
not to throw a monkey wrench in the works... but even these were ''test cars'',why did the 110a/110b proform so badly? they were OOS more than in..and even to this very day sit unused collecting dust, deemed ''unuseable''AS I understand ,they were built as a platform for new tech ''stuff''[which realy wasnt new at all,see washington METRO].This isnt ,for me,a finger pointing post,Ijust would like to know from some of the folks here that either work for MTA,or have some sort of knowledge of the cars to explain ...WHAT HAPPEN?
The intent was to see what worked...and what DIDN'T work.
David
so what will become of them? repair? rebuild?
For now, there is no answer. They're just sitting there.
David
Although the engineering may have been good, if not great, QUALITY CONTROL is what makes or breaks anything. The problems with the R142's arise from the lack of care taken while building them. If Bombardier truely cared about NYC, they would have been on top of the quality of the cars being produced. They cared only when they saw that that the MTA wasn't going to tolerate this. The R142 was the whipping boy of SubTalk for a very long time, and the R142's being shit was a very widely held view.
"The problems with the R142's arise from the lack of care taken while building them. If Bombardier truely cared about NYC, they would have been on top of the quality of the cars being produced."
How much do you know about the design discussions between NYC Transit and Bombardier? Why did Boston's cars come out OK when very closely related R142's had problems? What did Boston do that NYC did not(initially)? What kind of process was there for making changes at the factory, and was this followed appropriately? Both the manufacturer and NYC Transit could have abused it.
Unless you have reasonable answers to these questions, you don't have enough information to criticize Bomardier the way you do.
"The R142 was the whipping boy of SubTalk for a very long time, and the R142's being shit was a very widely held view."
On Subtalk, maybe - Subtalk, a very small, artificial world with very strongly held biases. Keep that in mind.
In fact, the R142 is a very nice design and, once the bugs are worked out, will be a very welcome addition and a real workhorse in the IRT fleet.
This does not mean I like what Bombardier did in its assembly plant - the Governor was concerned about quality control, and rightly so. Bombardier should have been paying more attention.
Why can Kawasaki build to identical specs and not have serious consistant problems? The R142's ARE nice cars, and are becoming better cars with more time im the shop being tweaked. The R142's are STILL being delivered with defects and glitches, as shown by my computationally challenged 5 train, put in service 4 DAYS before I rode it. The R142's had and still do have problems. A student who does a crummy job on a project which had tough specs, looks even worse when other students hand in great looking/working projects. You can't blame the teacher in this case.
Why can Kawasaki build to identical specs and not have serious consistant problems? Perhaps Kawasaki did things differently. Keeping in mind, not necessarily better.
"Why can Kawasaki build to identical specs and not have serious consistant problems? The R142's ARE nice cars, and are becoming better cars with more time im the shop being tweaked."
Well, you just hinted at one possible reason (and there is another post in this thread that mentions it). New factory, rookie crew - and Kawasaki watches them make mistakes and then doesn't repeat them.
That's not an excuse, and that might not even be the reason. It is one possible reason.
That's why I want a Bombardier rep to read this thread and offer a response. I want to hear what they have to say, good, bad, or otherwise...
Unsure of the relevance but there was a Bombardier rep who used to post at Rider Diaries some time ago, and got into heated discussions with those who criticized the R142 trains (which at the time were filled with bugs and they were also falling behind on one of the orders). He doesn't post there anymore (or at least hasn't made any recent posts).
What did Boston do that NYC did not(initially)?
Did boston design a rail car and then let bids to find a maufacturer, or did they go into the show room and say: "We'll take 100 of these."
Makes a big difference, you know.
Elias
Quality control on an R-9 is taking the specs, hoping the engineers don't change their minds, inspecting the hell out of a lot of welding (or riveting) and giving the client what they asked for two years ago.
Quality control on a 142 is built in the first day the TA starts talking about the spec. Everything affects everything else. When Kawasaki can control their process, communicate with the client, double check before production begins, they do consistently well. When a new work force on a new product has to deal with constant change, then carelessness with the client and TA's carelessness with the original design guidelines given to the manufacturer boil down to the same thing.
The thing about the Bombardier problems with the R-142 is they could be seen coming from a year off -- there was a story back in 1999 in the New York Post about quality control problems, specifically related to the cars' wiring, that the first R-142s coming out of Plattsburgh were experiencing.
Yea, the Post does have a tendancy to over-hype problems, but in this case, the story turned out to be accurate in terms of the ensuing problems the trains have encountered, compaired not only the Kawasaki's R-142s, but to their R-143s as well. So the MTA knew there were problems before any of the cars ever went into revenue service. Whether or not it was the workforce not being experienced enough, not being supervised well enough, or if the state's insistance on mandating production within New York's borders was the main factor behind the problems is open to debate, but obviously the problems theselves were enough to help scuttle Bombadier's efforts to land the R-160 contract.
It sounds as if the entire northeast will be sharing this monstrous snowstorm. We have 2 1/2 inches in Gettysburg so far, and I understand that Washington has 6. They say before it is over we will have 2 feet plus. If NYC gets all of this, your trains may be alittle late tomorrow.
Luck is with the Ny metro area, Monday is a holiday and will allow the agencies to fight Mama nature.
avid
Wow ... what a change. We've got 89 inches of snow that fell so far in upstate New York, this one's only going to bring us a dusting. Don't forget to wear your booties! :)
Seriously, my sympathies all ... it's pretty in the city when it's fresh. Turns black way too quickly. But it's nice while it lasts if you don't have to shovel it. Up here, we bring in a frontloader and it ain't cheap since we own our road and it's long. :(
We'll need them. South Central Pennsylvania is used to snow, but not two foot snowstorms. I don't think they will be able to cope with all of this.
The last time we had a big snowstorm they completely closed the state.
Comfort yourself with a simple thought. When it snows WAY down south, the bumper cars are amusing to watch. :)
Yeah, It's kinda weird, up here in Buffalo, we're not getting any of that snowstorm, just some high clouds and some ridiculously cold temps. It's like I'm in some alternate universe or something...
Have faith, once the front's gone through, the lake effect'll kick in. Something for EVERYONE in this one. :)
I have 18 inches minimum in Hastings-on-Hudson at 6 o'clock. I think that we're going to get 20 inches +/- out of this storm. I was out shoveling twice today and it was a pain in the kazoo. My body is quite sore now from all the work. I haven't had to clean up a mess like this since the Blizzard of '96. This storm will be a DOOZY!!
#3 West End Jeff
Up here, this one's not as bad as the Christmas or New Years jobbies, looks like maybe a piddly 14-16 or so. Not like the 33 incher or the 43 incher we had previously. Only wish I'd gotten to the roof prior to this one. Guess I'll have to be up there before sunrise if I can find it. :)
CSX finally packed it in for the night though.
I'm probably at 20+ inches at this point and a pocket of snow is over us. This is adding INSULT to INJURY!! Metro-North is on a Sunday schedule today. The Bee Line buses are running, but there are some detours and probably some delays.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm probably going to get a foot right here in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York. There is 4 inches of the white stuff in Newark already and it has just started to snow here and it is coming down hard!!
#3 West End Jeff
Well no one shovels where I live. I'll be walking in the street for quite sometime. Nonetheless, anybody who doesnt shovel their sidewalk, will get a friendly reminder, by Wednsday.
They said we could get over a foot of snow in NYC but I ain't getting happy until I see it.
I'm with ya' brah... Newscasters (unlike Mr. Todd) and the
Weather Channel tend to hype and pimp us any forthcoming snow
dustings like it's the end of the GG.... I figure we've been
overfooled TOO MANY TIMES to know better now to just WAIT and
CHEER (if) and when it does come.
Tho when it comes to Weather on SubTALK, in Todd We Trust!
:c)
I say it ain't heavy unless you can sled across the Brighton Line cut. ;-)
All you lucky bastards think of me when you're home tomorrow on SubTalk. I'll be out in the snow at work picking up all those folks who drive their SUVs like it was July, try to shovel snow even after their third bypass, and did I mention slip and fall trying to catch the 2 train on the El? See, I've only been a supervisor a little over a year. When you get promoted you go from being the most senior EMT to being the LEAST senior supervisor. So while all the OTHER bosses are at home snug in their bed, snowflakes and icicles fall on my head...
i'll probably work overtime getting crews out to sowned power lines in westchester and the bronx..snow=$
'flip' of the 'singer'..i meant downed power lines.
Do you work for Con Ed? I was with Manhattan Gas Operations for many years.
Well, I sure hope you said, "excuse me" after any "events." :)
At 3 PM, we have 7 inches on the ground here in Gettysburg. They are saying that we will get 18 - 24 inches, and they reserve the right to upgrade those figures.
I can't help but wonder what it would be like to still be living beside the Jamaica el in a storm like this, especially if they still had the uncovered third rail.
Well, you know LIRR would have croaked on the first inch, a GIVEN. :)
But geez, with nearly 90 inches on the ground up here, I sure hope you're not misguided enough to think I'm going to wake up the crocodile to shed some tears. :)
I've spent nearly $2,000 on road clearing with serious frontloaders so far this year. It'd be funny if I had the munny. Don't, alas. About TIME someone ELSE got some. But if it's any comfort, if you can hire up a truck, you can dump your excess HERE, we won't notice it. :)
Well, all the R-16s would be sent scurrying underground to the Canarsie line and BMT standards would take over on the Jamaica and Broadway-Brooklyn lines.
Oh I don't mind the $$$ part one bit! I just hate freezin my a$$ets off earning it. ;-)
luckily i'm surrounded by climate control
I shoulda took that job offer down south...wait, no subways there, that's why I didn't go...RATS! ;-)
Good luck with those SUV's. I think that situation is well ut of control. I'll probably never own a SUV just because I don't find them to be fast enough and even one as good as the Porsche Cayenne will never be able to corner as well as a great handling car. We know that a 4 X 4 will do better in the snow, but that's limited to starting off in deep snow/getting stuck. However, once their moving down the road they're pretty much in the same position as cars. In fact, I think that once a SUV is moving along in the snow/ice they're in more of a dangerous situation because of their heavier weight and higher off the ground. I think that some folks driving SUV's don't understand that the laws of physics applies to them too.
Wayne
Didn't you know that when you buy a Navigator with the full package you get a waiver from Newton's Laws of Motion? ;-)
Here is a question for all you guys in the subways operating world.
My wife and kids have plans, and tickets, to go to the Museum of Modern Art in Queens with a friend and HER kids. Their tickets are for 3:30 pm tomorrow, in the height of the storm, and toward the back side of it after snow has had a chance to pile up. The would have to take the F at Prospect Park, and switch to the G, to get there. That means traveling on the viaduct, out of doors in a spot where (unlike an El) the snow can't slip down between the ties. The forecast is now for 12 inches, with wind and blizzard conditions.
Here is the question: can they reasonably expect a decent subway ride in these conditions, or should they stay home since they don't absolutely have to travel? What do you think you can deliver?
My take: you should expect regular train service with less than eight inches, and travel with delays up to a foot. A foot or more, however, you should stay home during, and a few hours after, to give the TA time to clear the system. So, I think that traveling before Tuesday AM is asking for it. Any opinions?
Well, I have no choice, since I'm working Tour 2 EMS tomorrow so I'll be taking the train to work. But why travel for pleasure in weather like that? The Museum will still be there in a few days and I'm sure, in light of weather conditions, they'll honor your tix anyway. Now railfans taking pictures in the snow, that's ANOTHER story...;-)
Maybe the museum will be closed since those people may not be able to get to work.
I say go. I doubt the trains will be affected. When was the last time the "F" got stuck on the viaduct because of a snowstorm? However if they have a long walk to the station it might be bad as they said the winds will be blizzard conditions.
As an aside, my wife insists on staying over at her twin sister's house in New Hyde Park tonight. Even though its only 8.2 miles she would have to take 3 Long Is Buses home to East Meadow, (or the LIRR to Hicksville and one bus to EM). I told her in no uncertain words that I ain't driving if the storm is as bad as they say it will be and advised her not to go. She said, "don't worry, I'll take the bus". I will bet money she'll call tomorrow afternoon for a ride.
I feel bad for the kids who can't get a snow day out of it since its a holiday anyway!
Me, I was planning on going to Aqueduct however something tells me the card might be cancelled!
(When was the last time the "F" got stuck on the viaduct because of a snowstorm?)
Blizzard of '96. That was 29 inches in Brooklyn, this is only supposed to be 12 to 18. Then again, we haven't had more than eight inches since '96, so there no direct experience on 12 to 18.
I'd say the bigger issue would be getting to the subway.
Well Im sure they will be parking trains on underground express tracks, so expect curtailed service. I wouldnt venture out, then again, I'd give anything to be in NYC right now.
I've already prepared the rations!
We had that discussion at work about SUV's being heavier , and harder to stop. The more mass, Newton's Law takes effect, you ain't stopping, pardner.
I really question my ownership of a mini-van in these situations.
Chuck Greene
Minivans don't weigh nearly what the SUVs do, and since many of them, including our Windstars, are built on a passenger car chassis - closer to the road - they don't have the instability issues that plague SUVs.
If I do have to go out in this mess (and I really should make that Shiva call tonight) I'll drive the Windstar... it offers the best combination of traction and stability under these weather conditions of the three vehicles I have to choose from tonight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then there's always the possibility of top-centering, something that happened to me once with my Jeep. I finally got moving when I threw it into 4L - third gear did the trick.
Haven't ever had that problem, fortunately.
Did go out in the snow to Shiva... and decided, since it was pretty light and powdery, to take the Ranchero as, with the standard tranny, I have absolute control of the gears. Ran "low and slow" and didn't have any problems... saw only one idiot driver on the road, and that was some fool in a New Jersey Transit pickup who passed me on poorly-plowed route 35 in Shrewsbury (I was doing 25 in a 35) by using a shopping center turning lane on the RIGHT, doing about 45. He ran the red light at Tinton Avenue (Ft. Monmouth entrance) as well.
Six inches on of loose powder on the ground and still falling lightly in Eatontown as of this writing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have 14 inches here in Gettysburg at 10 PM, and it is really snowing hard now.
I think I am getting too old for all of this snow shoveling!
I have a small Toyota Corolla, but since its standard shift I feel I have less of a chance getting stuck in snow if you work the clutch right.
Well up here everybody drives Hummers, Navigators, Escalades,etc, and the roads are pretty scary for smaller vehicles up here.
It sure is coming down. I looked outside at my cars and I can barely tell which is which. I heard that last night after passenger service ended for WMATA Metrorail - some trains continued to operate through the night to keep the tracks/rails somewhat clear. During the blizzard of '96 I was still living in NYC and I was one of the few folks who actually made it to work via the good 'ol D train.
Wayne
Let me see... Philadelphia... SEPTA...
The R1 Airport line is running hourly as opposed to the usual 30 minute frequency, and the 12:55 PM (From Market East) train was cancelled.
Pretty much every Regional Rail line is either stuck somewhere or harshly delayed. The R5 Doylestown and R6 Norristown both left 30th Street at the same time, and the R6 had to wait for the R5 to clear, as they both share the same track through Suburban and Market East Stations
My R3 Media/Elwyn train was delayed 37 minutes, despite originating in Market East. That delay was due to equipment problems at Suburban Station, but THOSE probably came from all the snow and ice. I think the R7 Trenton was stuck at the switch behind it, as the R3 passed some train on the way in... I think it was the R7.
My birthday's in three days, but I HATE WINTER!!!
Karl, My son in Middletown, Del says there's a foot on the ground by him. He'll have to close his shop ... too bad holidays are big days in the muffler business :-(
Thurston, We're up to 11 inches now, and it is not over yet. I know the shore points and Baltimore & Washington have more than we do.
I'm sure that before this is over we will all have more than we need.
The pile from my drive way is on the side walk to the house. Thursday it forcast to be in the 40s, oh what a mess it's going to be.
Looks like 10-15 inches from the NWS, but I think its gonna be 18 inches here in Sea Cliff. I doubt I'll be seeing the sidewalks for quite awhile!
I will be snowed in tomorrow, and hope they dig us out on Tuesday!
Right now its been snowing steadily for a few hours, looks like got our first inch already, and we got 24 hours at least to go!
We're getting clobbered here in Philly... Now they're saying we'll get between 20 and 30 inches. Maybe I should move back to Chicago where it's warm and balmy.
I was actually up in NYC this morning, and caught the storm on the way back home about 20 miles north of exit 4 on the New Jersey Turnpike. Traffic was a crawl the rest of the way home, and the snow was coming down faster than the plows could keep up with.
And then, like an idiot, I decided to drive over to Philadelphia around 6:00 for a meeting at my church. There was at least a foot of snow on the roads, but luckily for me there was hardly any traffic at all. I got back home around 9:20 without any major incident, but I wouldn't reccomend being out in that weather unless you absolutely had to. Luckily, my boss called me this afternoon and told me not to even worry about trying to show up for work on Monday.
Oh, and did I mention that I was driving my new 1996 Chevy Camaro? Not exactly a winter car by any means, but it held its own. I especially got a good chuckle as I casually cruised past a massive Ford Leviathan SUV laying in the ditch alongside the NJ Turnpike.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
With heavy snow accumulation making side streets impassable, Metrobus is operating only on main routes Sunday. Metrobus customers are advised to walk to their nearest bus stops on major plowed streets. Metrorail is operating with restricted service. Trains are serving all stations but at only 30-minute intervals. With this level of operation, Metro is operating in service level three, as defined in its severe weather plan. Please note that the RideGuide does not reflect this modified service, and will not generate accurate itineraries. To plan a trip on Metro today, please phone Metro customer information at 202/637-7000.
Wouldn't it make sense to run trains at a higher frequency? At 30 minutes, lots ice may accumulate on the tracks and, IMO, would increase the chacne of an accident with one of the few trains operating. What I've seen MARTA do during icy conditions (yes, we get ice sometimes) is just run trains at slower speeds, but keep the normal headway, so the ice won't have time to build up.
Well, the actual level 3 doesn't call for 30 minute frequencies, I can e-mail you the severe weather plan if you want it.
To make matters worse, now they are running every 60 minutes and put a schedule on the website. All trains on each line except green leave the terminals on the hour, meaning each line only needs 2 trains. I wonder if this means any 8 car trains are running. A yellow round trip is less than an hour so there is just one train on that route. I imagine they are running icing and scraping trains between the revenue trains, but then again, the city is essentially shut down.
I heard on the news not long after I posted my earlier message about hourly service that they were running only every 2 hours. I can't believe the ridership is that low.
I don't understand why they didn't implement a combination of Plans 5 and 6 with the underground portions running, oh say, every 20-30 minutes and limited outdoor service every 45-60? Now that it's evening and only a few more hours until closing it's pointless, but it would have made sense during the daytime, especially since people actually went out. Apparently, the Disney on Ice show at MCI Center went on as scheduled and had quite a large turnout, so it wouldn't have been a complete waste -- at least it would have probably gotten more people to take the trains than every hour or two.
I see metrorail will only be running every 30 minutes tomorrow and not opening until 8AM. Normally, President's Day operates on the modified weekday schedule opening at 5:30 but running more on a Saturday schedule. Everyone just take it easy out there! The State of Emergency in VA isn't really taking much affect here as cars are driving all over the place in Ballston. I can't believe all essential people.
I see metrorail will only be running every 30 minutes tomorrow and not opening until 8AM. Normally, President's Day operates on the modified weekday schedule opening at 5:30 but running more on a Saturday schedule. Everyone just take it easy out there! The State of Emergency in VA isn't really taking much affect here as cars are driving all over the place in Ballston. I can't believe they are all essential people.
Metrorail has been running on 60-minute headways since early afternoon. It was reported on the news they went from 30 to 60 minutes because ridership today is extremely low. I'm glad this storm hit on a holiday weekend. However, conditions here in the District are majorly better than they were during the 1996 storm. Several bus routes run on my block of P Street (to Georgetown, Glover Park, Sibley Hospital) and from what I have seen, the buses are running on about their usual Sunday schedules. Back in '96, if it weren't for the fact that P Street west of Dupont Circle is one of the main through routes to Georgetown and the traffic alone did the plowing, it would have been days for the street to be passable again. Also, Metro was doing a decent job of keeping the entrances at both end of the Dupont Circle station clear. Friends of mine in other parts of Northwest have also said their streets are pretty clear and it looks like Metrobus is running close to normal. The only gripe most of us have is that the subway is on this darn 60-minute headway...not that there are all that many places to go, but being able to hop on the train and pop up near the Mall to go for a walk would be nice.
Click here to read the article. The map that accompanied it showed the routes in Manhattan, but showed the B and D going over the MannyB along wiht the Q, which ran up 6th Avenue. The W was shown going up Broadway via the Montauge Street Tunnel. I also believe the F was on 53rd Street, there was no V, and the 63rd Street Tunnel wasn't on the map.
There's always a tendancy of lack of updating maps. Some phone book I received some time ago still had the Decemeber 2001 edition, introducing the V.... even though it was almost the end of 2002!!
The article describes how the system really is a sign of great art. I'm just hoping any real rehabilitations keep their 'old-style', though Ci isn't going to be one of them. Besides, I don't think we had solar panels way back then.
I was just thinking about another quasi fare increase that might help the MTA put off a full scale fare hike. The MTA should identify peak use subway station (Penn Station (1/9/A/C/E), Times Sq and GCT come immediately to mind) where congestion and crowding are a problem. They sould then implement a peak use surchage either during just the rush or like from 6AM to 9PM for each transaction conducted at an MVM or token booth at said stations. The surcharge would be $1 or $2 and would definitly apply to single ride cards and tokens and possibly to all transactions.
The MTA could really look into convienence charges as a way to raise fares w/o effecting the majority of the riding public. It could also help ease congestion, lines and queues. Those with disposable income will simply use whatever MVMs/booths that they want. Those w/o disposable income can spend a little extra of their time to save money.
(The MTA should identify peak use subway station (Penn Station (1/9/A/C/E), Times Sq and GCT come immediately to mind) where congestion and crowding are a problem. They sould then implement a peak use surchage either during just the rush or like from 6AM to
9PM for each transaction conducted at an MVM or token booth at said stations.)
Good idea except for one thing: it isn't the stations that are crowded, it is the trains themselves on certain lines -- the Lex, the Queens, the Flushing and the Brighton (as a result of the Manny B).
You could charge extra for people using the Lex, to encourage them to take the Sixth Avenue line and walk east, but that would require charging people to exit as well as enter.
So perhaps the most workable alternative is peak hour pricing, with a $2.25 fare during at rush hour, with 25 cent steps down or up each half hour to $1.50 off peak fare. Outside central business district areas, the peak hour fare could be AM rush hours only, since someone boarding in Brooklyn at 5 pm to go TO Manhattan, or further out in Brooklyn, isn't contributing to crowding.
The best idea is the one the MTA is preposing
Charge less to people who buy more at a time. Hense the heavest users get the biggest breaks. The purpose of mass transit is to get people where they need to go so they can spend money and keep the economy moving. The subways were originaly built because street level had maxed out it's capasity to get people around thus limited NYC growth potential. Charging peak station fees just discourages usage
Small increases for weekly and monthly unlimited ride cards.
Steaper volume discounts should also be given to people who buy more at one time
10% 10 riders or more
15% 15 rides or more
20% 20 rides or more
One other idea is to charge a transaction fee of say for using a tooken booth
I would simply eliminate all bulk discounts and then just raise the price of a single ride card and tokens. The MTA is saying that the problem is that an average ride has dropped to like 1.10 counting unlimited ride cards. Even the 15$ discount makes a ride 1.36 which is somewhat cheap. I would do away w/ the 15$ discount and then raise the single ride and token price to 1.75 with a possible $2 fare during peak times. However you could avoid this by shelling out $3 for a stored value card w/ 2 rides.
just use 5th Avenue to escape the surcharge, if the TA doesn't think of the (7) usage, then many people will just bypass the surcharge on 42nd street.
Part of the plan to to shift MVM/booth traffic to other stations. The MTA will get $ from those whp pay the surcharge and will create value by reducing crowing conditions in busy stations. Furthermore, adding surcharges to TSQ, Penn Stations and GCT would have out of towners paying most of the surcharges. A tax on out of towners is always popular at home.
By raising fares a little right now, the MTA can delay an accross the board hike. All the MTA needs is creativity.
I don't see how charging a premium to those who *pay* their fares at busy midtown stations helps reduce rush-hour congestion. People who commute into midtown Manhattan on the subway will buy their Metrocards (unlimited or cash-value variety) elsewhere. Even unrepentant token users can avoid the extra charge provided they buy two tokens at their home station in the morning. People transferring from LIRR or MNR will have commuter tickets with add-on Metrocards, which they won't buy in midtown either. People transferring between subway lines at the busiest stations don't pay at those stations. All you will do is charge a bit extra to tourists or occasional business visitors to NY, who are either staying in hotels near those stations or arriving on Amtrak. This raises a bit of extra revenue from non-NYC (and probably also non-NYS) taxpayers, which is fine, but it won't cut congestion much.
The congestion comes from the lines at the token booth and MVM machines. People standing around in line can really impeede the flow of traffic.
"By raising fares a little right now, the MTA can delay an accross the board hike"
Delaying a hike just make the hike bigger down the road.
The MTA's biggest problem is out of control labor costs and work rules. They just employ too many people and have too many restriction s on what the employees can and can not due.
You can raise the fare to kindom come and you will never end up ahead
jeez, how many times must I point out that the riders with LEAST eleastic travel times are the LOWEST paid wage earners. Flex time is not real common for clockpunchers the way it is for the well and overpaid bosses. Surcharging those who HAVE NO TIME OPTIONS is IMHO immoral.
The "screwing the poor" issue could be avoided with a couple of simple changes in fare policy:
1. The "bulk" premium should start at no more than $5 (instead of the current $15). That way, even those who don't happen to have $15 on hand (because they've spent it on, say, groceries) could still buy a $5.50 card for $5.00.
2. The base fare should offer an unlimited three-hour or four-hour pass. This would get rid of the rigid 2-hour (or 2:18) transfer privilege and its associated complications (such as 3-leg transfers, or station-to-station transfers that require giving up a later bus transfer); it would also allow low-income riders the ability to make very long commutes WITHOUT having to buy a weekly or monthly pass. (Not all jobs are just a bus-or-train-ride away.)
"The "bulk" premium should start at no more than $5 (instead of the current $15). That way, even those who don't happen to have $15 on hand (because they've spent it on, say, groceries) could still buy a $5.50 card for $5.00"
The discount if put in a t $5 would triple the volume at MVM's and tooken booths as sone people who now buy $15 at a shot will buy lower amounts which drives up the cost of goods sold. The exact oposite of what's in the interst of the general riding public
MVM's will need to be serviced more often. Driving up costs and reducing availabilty.
The myth that people making under $25,000 a year can not aford $15 at at time is false. Some people of lower econimic stratus choose not to buy $15 at at time. As been discussed on this board before. The location of people surveyed could potenially swayed the results of the survey. Interview DAILY COMMUTERS who use the $15 fairly quickly and that person is more likely to buy $15 at a time because he/she will use the entire $15 before getting his/her next paycheck eliminated the bennifit of buying in smaller intervals. There is no food vs transit fare issue becuse they need to spend the $15 anyway before thier next paychck.
Interview someone who does not use mass transit as often, then the $1.50 savings is less enticing.
The straphangers campaign(NYPIRG) who released the study is known for putting together surveys in a way to make a point they had predetermined.
"The base fare should offer an unlimited three-hour or four-hour pass. This would get rid of the rigid 2-hour (or 2:18) transfer privilege and its associated complications (such as 3-leg transfers"
The unlimited transfers for 3 hours is a good idea for multileg. But it would have to be as it is now at a different station or bus to illegal sale of fares.
The MTA should take it one step further and disallow access to stations in a few block radius to prevent fradulant sales
[The unlimited transfers for 3 hours is a good idea for multileg. But it would have to be as it is now at a different station or bus to illegal sale of fares.]
Obviously, the "lockout" feature of the Unlimited MetroCards (and most employee passes) would apply to my "three-hour pass" as well. I apologize for not clarifying that.
50c fare is the way 2 go nationwide ................!
50c fare is the way 2 go nationwide ................!
My proposal is NOT a peak TIME fare policy. It is a peak STATION fare policy. The surcharges would only be paid at stations where congestion is a problem and where people should try to avoid making an MVM or booth transaction.
(Surcharging those who HAVE NO TIME OPTIONS is IMHO immoral.)
It is my observation, though I don't have the data to back it at this time, that those who work in lower paid professions are LESS likely to work 9 to 5. They work in retail, restaurant and service trades. The number of suits on the trains at rush hour vs. other times bears this out.
In addition, the working poor are more likely to use mass transit for all their trips, rather than just for journey to work. We have a car. The working poor do not. They would gain more of the benefit from lower fares off peak than we do.
Therefore, I consider peak your pricing a net gain for most of those at the bottom, relative to those at the top.
(It is my observation, though I don't have the data to back it at this time, that those who work in lower paid professions are LESS likely to work 9 to 5.)
True, but many low paid workers do work 7 to 3, 8 to 4, or 9 to 5. Office and apartment building maintenance men, receptionists, mailroom clerks, deli/coffee shop workers, loading dock workers, day shift hospital workers, unskilled laborers on construction sites, etc., etc.
True, but many low paid workers do work 7 to 3, 8 to 4, or 9 to 5.
(Office and apartment building maintenance men,)
One shift comes in as the building opens, and another stays until it closes. Not rush hour.
(Receptionists, mailroom clerks)
Pink collar workers are 9 to 5. Those jobs have been disappearing in droves, replaced by IT. The loss of 500,000+ jobs like that is one reason the city's early 1990s recession was so deep.
(deli/coffee shop workers,)
If it has a breakfast shift, they are in at 7:00 a.m. If it just opens for lunch, not until 10:00.
(loading dock workers,)
One of the perinnial proposals to unclog traffic is to have tolls that encourage deliveries in off peak hours.
(day shift hospital workers)
Hospitals operate round the clock: they can have shifts start and end at any time.
(unskilled laborers on construction sites)
I know lots of people in construction. They tend to start early, and knock off early. In summer there are two shifts, with no rush hour travel. Or 12 hour shifts with round the clock work.
Perhaps my own work (admittedly many years ago) is illustrative--in a midtown bookstore for not much above min wage--BUT required to show up in suit and tie. @ 9 AM. I am well aware that in NY as in SF the 'subway' in multiclass at rush hour, but I believe that the reality remains, clockpunchers are rarely offered flextime, AND although you are correct about the 'carless' (no matter their incomes) using transit outside rush hour, that in itself does not mitigate charging them extra for non-discretionary travel.
P(erhaps my own work (admittedly many years ago) is illustrative--in a midtown bookstore for not much above min wage--BUT required to show up in suit and tie. @ 9 AM.)
Well, not sense in arguing opinions in the absence of the facts. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the census bureau's Public Use Microdata Sample (PUMS file). Essentially, they take a sample of the actual census records of lots of people, strip off the name and address (but keep some geographic identifier so you know the general area where it is for), and put them in a file. With PUMS, it would be possible to crosstabulate (for the long form) time of travel to work, occupation, income, and means of travel to work (subway, bus, drive alone). Perhaps we can get together at the end of the year and petition someone who has access to the data and the knowledge how to run it to answer this question.
>>> Surcharging those who HAVE NO TIME OPTIONS is IMHO immoral. <<<
There is no morality in economics. Any time an economic incentive, such as a discount for bulk purchase, or disincentive such as premium fares to discourage excess usage is used, those with more money or the ability to manage their time will do better than those, usually in the lower economic brackets, who do not have such options.
Tom
>>There is no morality in economics.<< which is why the job of political structures is to IMPOSE the morality on the otherwise AMORAL 'laissez faire' social parasites.
which is why the job of political structures is to IMPOSE the morality on the otherwise AMORAL 'laissez faire' social parasites.
And it is also the job of these political structures to STARVE the masses.
Because that is what happens with a command economy.
the only aspects of the US economy not 'commanded one way or another' are blackmarket. The dominance of Microsoft may be privately held but it is not "free market" just ask Sun. The important question is whether the economy in question is intelligently managed or not. THAT can be measured by standard of living accross ALL class lines. If the number of hours worked to earn a monthly subway ticket (however priced) decreases people win, if it increases people lose. Same for food etc. As a study of farm economics will show, food pricing is MASSIVELY manipulated almost everywhere.
So, is anyone following transit through the winter weather today.
I took Amtrak at 816am from Philly to NYP.......i actually got on the train scheduled to leave at 716am b/c of serious delays. Snow had piled knee high in the doorways since DC and it took a while to shovel out the doorways before departing. Both trains arrived at NYP at the same time, which seemed to confuse lots of passengers at that station.
When the train finally got moving...all seemed to move fine with no other problems. How is SEPTA,MN, LIRR and NJ Transit faring? Here is the latest AMTRAK press release....seems that things are bad south of DC....
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
www.amtrak.com
February 16, 2003
WINTER STORM UPDATE FOR OUR PASSENGERS
Due to the winter storm that hit the East Coast this weekend, some Amtrak trains have been affected by snow and ice conditions. Most trains between Boston and Washington continued in-service Sunday afternoon. However, most trains between Washington and Florida were cancelled on Sunday. Currently, Amtrak expects to continue running most trains between Washington and Boston through Monday. For the latest and most up-to-date information, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL.
I have an interested in getting one since model railroading is so ridiculously expensive these days. Whatever happened to buying a Lionel trainset just for $20? :D
Please forgive me for asking here, but I suppose it's not as O/T as other threads have been...
I model Amtrak Trains now, and I have a 4 Car R143 Trainset being produced now for my Layout. They have BVE Train Simulator and Microsoft Train Simulator Available now.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yeah, I forgot about BVE! :D I managed to get it with 2 routes, the F and Q. I'm having problems playing though. When I try to select one of the routes, an error message saying ' Train Not Available' is shown. What's wrong?
You need to download the aproiate train for the route. If you need any help with BVE. Just e-mail me and ill be glad to help you out with it.
I've seet you some mail. Check it out please!
Whatever happened to buying a Lionel trainset just for $20? :D
It went the way of the 10c Pepsi!
I've been uploading to my Webshots Homepage today.
2 New Albums:
I have re-loaded Day One of the W, which exhibits photos of the short-lived 'W' express service, which ran on the Astoria Line in Queens from April to September, 2001.
I have also re-loaded photos from a Philadelphia Rt. 23 PCC Fantrip in Philadelphia taken in April, 2002.
Nice shots, Pete. That was a good trip, as usual. I nearly finished the last roll of slides that I took before throwing out my malfunctioning 35 mm camera and deciding to do digital only.
my last roll of slides
Hi, Bob.
I like the EBT shots, especially the one of the loco steaming down the line (except I'm not a fan of that re-purposed flat-bed/open car behind the tender).
I've got some slides awaiting transfer to JPEG format, but my scanner has no slide capability. A slide-scanner and projector are on my long-term wish list!
Too bad you're not joining us tomorrow for the field trip. I figured I'd go, since the meeting-point is in my neighborhood. The snow in Brooklyn appears to have stopped for today, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. Could make for some good snow-shot photo-ops in Da Bronx.
Keep me posted on any Philly fantrips.
Keystone Pete
Too bad you're not joining us tomorrow for the field trip.
Where I am they're forecasting 12-to-16 inches of snow before ending Monday as sleet and finally rain. For me to get to Atlantic Ave at 10 AM without driving, I'd have to leave the house at 5:15 A.M. AND MAKE SCHEDULED CONNECTIONS.
Thanks for posting. Nice shots!
Two corrections. First, that's Day Two of the W -- Day One was July 22, and it ran only in Brooklyn. Second, Astoria express service was reinstated in late October or early November and only suspended permanently in December or January.
OK gang who wants to guess if the LIRR will make it through this storm. In 1996 they messed up BIG time. If we get the 16-20" they say we will (and it's a Holiday tomorrow, fewer tph) will they keep running, or will I be WALKING home from work tomorrow?
The diesels will be running, however the electrics may be another story. I remember some years back they were running diesels on some of the electric branches, although that was in the days of the GP38's, MP15's, etc. The "winner" DM(DE)30's may be another story....
But, for those who have off, I'm sure it will make for some nice photos if they can stand the cold. I wish I could have gotten to the subway for some subway snow shots tomorrow.
There were trains running with limited service as far as eastern points as Port Jeff, Ronkonkoma, Babylon, and other Main Line Points. After the 1996 Blizzard, I was very surprised when the trains were running to Port Jeff when they said that trains were only running to the major terminuses of electrified services. The one train that I saw at Port Jeff had a six car train comprising of the last Alco "Powerpack" that was in service 614, and I believe the GP38-2 was 270 on that train. Believe it or not, the station was crowded with passengers, and so was the eastbound train.
I betcha there wont be any Oyster Bay line service come tomorrow. They probably dig us out last!
I don't see how you can expect LIRR to run normal service if the third rail get buried in snow.
I live 1 block from the Merrick station, and I will try to take some pictures in the snow
I don't know what I'll do. Tomorrow is a regular work day for me, and even if it weren't for the snow it would be a headache because the LIRR will be operating on a weekend schedule. Having been stuck in the city for several hours last Friday on account of the Penn Station track fire, I'm definitely not thrilled about the prospect of getting stranded once again.
First, a woman named Frau Frau, whose video is shot inside an old trolley that resembles a cable car but has a trolley pole. There are shots facing the rear of the car with a roof mounted camera shooting toward the pole.
Next, Telepopmusik, which has a video running on MUN2 with robot children poisoning adults lounging by a pool (the song, Breathe, is used in an ad). This new version has a woman entering the subway in LA, but the station downstairs is Government Center complete with MBTA signs. There is dancing graffiti, and the train has the Green Line color scheme applied to what look like London tube trains. She also passes through Copley. Strangely, in addition to these CGI scenes they actually shot the woman walking along the Charles in Cambridge, and atop the Harvard Bridge.
Finally for all you Brooklyn fans, the Counting Crows and Vanessa Carlton have an odd duet shot at opposite ends of the borough. The Crows are on the Boardwalk and at Astroland, while Ms Carlton wanders around DUMBO.
I have a question for my fellow BMT buddies. What lines used the BMT Standard from 1960 to 1969. I am too young to remember a Standard on the #1 Brighton Local. I do remember the Type D cars on the express.
Here is what I remember. 1964-1967:
Canarsie was 100% Standards.
Franklin Shuttle had both three car trains and three three car trains of standards at rush hour.
Culver Shuttle. 100% Standards.
I heard that there were some on the Jamaica Line. I seldom rode Jamaica and once in a while would spot a train on the Williamsburg Bridge. I do not remember Standards.
After 11/67 Standards were mixed with R1-9's on Canarsie.
Who else used them from 1960 until their final day in 1969?
The "M" ran BMT Standards, didn't it? In fact the "M" was where the BMT Standard made its last stand on August 4, 1969. There were occasional sightings of spare BMT Standards on the "KK" as well. The Jamaica line Standards would have been #14 (Broadway Lcl/JJ) not #15 (Jamaica Exp/QJ)
wayne
#1 Brighton Line: Part of my youth was watching the goings on from the Newkirk Ave overpass. I first recalled the Standards on the Brighton local before the R-27's arrived. I recalled the "BX" trailer cars, they didn't have shoe beams. The Brighton Express was ruled by the Triplex's until the R-32's arived in 1964. But on a rare occasion, I spotted a set of Standards on the Brighton Express.
2# 4th Ave. local: On annual trips with my folks to buy me clothing on Fulton St. I remembered Standards on the 4th Ave local while waiting at DeKalb Ave for the Brighton train.
3# West End: I recalled seeing Standards at Stillwell Terminal while walking with my family after a long day of bathing on a hot summer day at Coney Island. I did ride Standards on the West End before the R-27/30's arrived.
4# Sea Beach: (Fred's line !) The Triplex's ruled the #4 also, but when riding the Sea Beach one day I spotted the R-32's being tested between 8th Ave and Ft.Hamilton Pkwy. Standards were running that day, so I guess the Triplex's were transferred to the West End where they ran their last days.
#5 Culver Shuttle: I remember fondly two "A" cars as the shuttle. I seen pics of #2500 series cars on the shuttle, but never rode them in person.
7# Franklin Shuttle: Before the R-11's etc, a "B" set of Standards were a fun ride to Franklin Ave.
My younger years were spent in the Southern Division, so never recalled Standards in the East. But when I was older, I discovered the #16 Canarsie Line and the BMT Standards. The very last time I rode them was back in 1969, but it wasn't until 1976 and the Nostalgia Special, I rediscovered them again.
Bill "Newkirk"
#1 Brighton Line: Part of my youth was watching the goings on from the Newkirk Ave overpass. I first recalled the Standards on the Brighton local before the R-27's arrived. I recalled the "BX" trailer cars, they didn't have shoe beams. The Brighton Express was ruled by the Triplex's until the R-32's arived in 1964. But on a rare occasion, I spotted a set of Standards on the Brighton Express.
2# 4th Ave. local: On annual trips with my folks to buy me clothing on Fulton St. I remembered Standards on the 4th Ave local while waiting at DeKalb Ave for the Brighton train.
3# West End: I recalled seeing Standards at Stillwell Terminal while walking with my family after a long day of bathing on a hot summer day at Coney Island. I did ride Standards on the West End before the R-27/30's arrived.
4# Sea Beach: (Fred's line !) The Triplex's ruled the #4 also, but when riding the Sea Beach one day I spotted the R-32's being tested between 8th Ave and Ft.Hamilton Pkwy. Standards were running that day, so I guess the Triplex's were transferred to the West End where they ran their last days.
#5 Culver Shuttle: I remember fondly two "A" cars as the shuttle. I seen pics of #2500 series cars on the shuttle, but never rode them in person.
7# Franklin Shuttle: Before the R-11's etc, a "B" set of Standards were a fun ride to Franklin Ave.
My younger years were spent in the Southern Division, so never recalled Standards in the East. But when I was older, I discovered the #16 Canarsie Line and the BMT Standards. The very last time I rode them was back in 1969, but it wasn't until 1976 and the Nostalgia Special, I rediscovered them again.
Bill "Newkirk"
very good, thanks for the info.
Steven (formerly of Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton Line)
I rode the Brighton to high school from Sept. 1965, and I'd get a view at Prospect Park of the shuttle most days (and laid-up shuttle equipment, too). I never saw a Standard on the Franklin Av. Shuttle in those days. I only saw R34s on the shuttle from then through Chrystie (late Nov. '67).
As of 1960, and before the R27w started coming in in force (there were exceptions here ad there):
1-Brighton Local, all service.
1-Brighton/Nassau, all service
2-Fourth Avenue Local and Nassau, all service
3-West End Local and Express, all service except some SIRT cars on the local
4-Sea Beach, maybe half and half with Triplexes
5-Culver Shuttle, more or less all, but sometimes SIRT cars
7-Franklin, all except when oddities were running (SIRT, Lo-Vs, etc.)
10-Myrtle/Chambers, interspersed with Multis, occasional R16
14-Broadway Short Line, most except R16s ebbed and flowed
16-Canarsie, all except an R-16 set or two.
As the R27s were delivered, they displaced Standards first on the Brighton Local, then the Fourth Avenue Local. As the Multis and SIRTs were scrapped, the Standards moved in there, becoming all West End Short Line and Myrtle/Chambers.
When enough R27s were around, they covered all late night and weekend service on the Southern Division, but Standards still covered most of Canarsie 24/7, and the Shuttles.
I spent my early days near the West End (early 60s)and remember the ABs as the only types then. As a little side note, my grandfather was a fireman assigned to a firehouse just west of the Stillwell terminal. Visilbe from the 2nd or 3rd floor of the firehouse was the southwest end of the terminal. When I visited the firehouse I would love to look out the window at the terminal and watch the action. During the midday hours I would see 2 ABs spotted at the south end of both the West End tracks, up against the bumper. In the late afternoon, an in service West End 6 car train would couple up with the 2 ABs and now go back into service as an 8 car West End!
Finally, I believe it was around 1963 or 64, D-types appeared on the West End and the ABs were gone! (swapped to the Sea Beach line).
Does anyone know the reason for this swap?
Hot Lunch!
Two possible reasons:
1. They wanted to get the Triplexes off the Manhattan Bridge, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if the Triplexes were being used on the West End Express.
2. Since the West End Express was essentially a rush-hour and Saturday service by the early 60s, they decided to run the older equipment only during rush hours and put the Triplexes there. That would explain why I didn't see any Triplexes during our visit in July of 1965. Their last day of service was the very same day we left for home.
By 1967, the remaining BMT standards were on the Eastern Division. I rode on them for two years on the Canarsie line.
As far as 1960 until Chrystie is concerned for the Eastern Division:
#10: Almost all Standards. An R16 every so often, but I never saw one.
#14: Some Standards, some R16
#15: All R16, except when it snowed
#16: Almost all Standard, except when it snowed. At about 6pm every night, an R16 off the #14 and became a #16 at Canarsie for at least one round trip. It was needed for a MofW run (garbage train ?) later.
Some on Subtalk about a year ago reported of an R16 school charter headed for Coney Island. The Franklin Shuttle also had Standards. At least one R11 was mixed with R16's, I believe only at the end of the consist. R27-32 never saw the Eastern Divison except for deadheading midday layups at ENY.
I also never saw, nor have I ever seen a picture of, a Standard longer than 6 cars. Did it ever happen ?
From memory, eight-car Standards were standard (pun there, perhaps) on the BMT Southern Division expresses (except the Culver, the Specials, and the Franklin). Locals usually operated with six Standards, as I recall.
Fourth Avenue locals around 1950 operated with eight R-1s, if memory serves.
Ed Al
But weren't most Southern Division expresses run with Triplexes, not Standards ?
In the 1950s and into the 1960s until newer R-types arrived, Brighton and Sea Beach expresses used Triplexes. West End, Franklin, Culver, and the two Specials used Standards. (For a while in the mid-1950s, Culvers used the SIRT cars in five-car sets, since the trailers weren't used in regular service and the SIRT cars apparently wouldn't train with the Standards.)
One thing I left out earlier was that Culver line locals were three-car trains outside of rush hours.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I recall (Southern division, late 50s until the R27s took over) 8 car trains of Standards in rush hours on the Brighton Local, 4th Ave. Local, West End Exp, and Sea Beach Exp. Brighton Exp. and some Sea Beach Exp. trains were four Triplexes. Other lines (Culver-Nassau, West End Local, Banker's Specials) ran 6 Standards (plus a few 5 car sets of ex-SIRT cars on the Culver-Nassau, later West End local).
Outside of rush hours, some cars were cut off, generally 6 Standards or 3 Triplexes, with late night trains sometimes only a 3 car train of Standards. Franklin shuttle was 3 Standards except for a few years when they ran 4-car sets of IRT Low-Vs.
-- Ed Sachs
["After 11/67 Standards were mixed with R1-9's on Canarsie."]
I might be wrong, although I doubt it, I don't think the R1-9's started on the Canarsie Line until the Standards were being discontinued in '69. I used to ride the LL a lot in the late 60's just to ride on the standards and I remember it being ALL Standards.
By the way,
here's a sad picture for those who liked Standards AND 'ol style GM buses.*
*From New York Transit Memories by Harold A Smith
I am sad to inform you that the 3 BMT "Q" cars that were stored at the SBK yard have been scrapped on the spot. Cars 1612B (Mate to Q in the museum), 1630B (QX) and 1636B (QX) were chopped up over the course of the last week. They are now flat cars with only the steel ends remaining. Soon they will be gone too. The bodies are in a big dumpster. This is a sad end to three historic cars that started life as BRT "BU" gate cars. If I am not mistaken, They were 100 years old this year. This closes the chapter of wooden NYC Rapid Transit cars. While they were in sad shape, It's too bad that they couldn't have been saved. Don't worry about saving parts. Whatever items that were salvageable were removed and saved. At least parts of them will live on.
-Mark
Anyone have any photos of them before they did this?
Try this
http://www.nycrail.com/rollingstock/work/q_cars.htm
-Mark
Wow, there were in pretty sorry shape.
Doesn't look like even the boys of Branford could have done much with those things.
I guess that frees up those tracks to store R-40s on
LOL Elias
I have some shots of before (one week before) and after (five days later). At least they remain as 'El Caminos'.
http://www.urbanlens.com/files/subwood/subwood.html
what about their trucks? I recall hearing that they were suppose to be used somewhere...
They are still under what is left of the cars. When the floors are dismantled, They will be saved.
Mark, those trucks aren't the original ones for those cars, right? I thought those were just scrap trucks underneath...
Mark, those trucks aren't the original ones for those cars, right? I thought those were just scrap trucks underneath...
So? What is to stop them from parking R-40s on them!
;^)
[Whatever items that were salvageable were removed and saved. At least parts of them will live on.]
Ahem....in someone's apartment no doubt. :)
Just how big is Heypaul's apartment, anyway?:)
It's like the TARDIS. Bigger on the inside.
Please note the totally restored Q car set in the club basement. The Standards are one level lower.
Arnines are in the penthouse.
I just looked at the photos of the cars on the www.nycrail.com website. While they were in sad shape. It is quite a shame that they weren't saved. They should have given the cars to a railway museum. Now it is too late. At least there is still one "Q" car remaining.
#3 West End Jeff
There are two saved: 1612C at Transit Museum & 1602 in Kingston.
BTW, I was able to purchase the number board from Q #1620B.
Interestingly it is the second time the number was applied, i.e. you can see the previous under it.
I was on a two fan trips in '68 and '69, with the restored three car set of Q-types. When I lived in Boston for years, I came back mostly for weekends to visit family no Long Island and didn't get into the Transit Museum for about 10 years.
When I finally made it back there, in the spring of 1988, I saw the three Q's that had been been rebuilt back to "almost" BU's and the single remaining restored Q type - I never got a direct answer from anyone about the other two restored units - where were they and why didn't keep all three to save their complete set? It was terrible judgement to scrap the other two, leaving one lone remaining one for the Museum... but judgements like that were business as usual...
And it would have been just too damn daring (and "preservation/museum sensible") wouldn't it - to have not only saved those other two units and have one restored Q-Type, but grabbed another two complete Q-type units and *rebuilt them into "almost" C-Types* - one as the prototype with the small single leaf doors in center of each car, and the second as the production design, with the large single leaf doors towards the ends - yeah, I know it would have been "fudging" since the the C's original center units were much older trailers - but it would have been pretty cool anway.... dream on.......
"It was terrible judgement to scrap the other two, leaving one lone remaining one for the Museum... but judgements like that were business as usual"
There is only so much display room in the museum as far as track space goes.
Bill "Newkirk"
True, but it would have also been valuable to save one complete operating unit for each kind of museum car, as was done with the LO-V's & D-Types, and 2390-1-2 (despite the shame so many years ago, of its maintenance being let go).
How is it in the rockaways? Is there any delays on the A Line out in Far Rockaway? Especially over the Jamaica Bay.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
NYC Subway Community (Exclusively for SubTalkers!)
Probabally not. There isn't much snow now. And, don't forget, the jet snowblower is housed at B116. So, i think Rockaway is just fine.
How many jet snowblowers are there? There was one earlier today at E180 (on the tracks parallel to the revenue tracks leading to the disused NYW&B platforms), quite a distance from Rock Park.
Recollection says there are four, but Train Dude or a couple of others are in a much better position to give an accurate answer than I am. There are at least two, per the photographs elsewhere on this site (JB-4 and JB-5).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
With LIPA, count on delays!
Here in Montgomery County PA ( 30 miles NW of Phila) we got about
9". Its been snowing from about 9 am this morning, not real heavy,
but constantly.
It has just started snowing in New York. I'm in Hastings-on-Hudson which is 20 miles north of Times Square in New York City and it is cloudy, but there is no snow falling yet. We can expect about a foot of snow when it is all said and done. The only transportaion that might be running tomorrow is going to be Metro-North and the New York City subways.
#3 West End Jeff
Alright, I'll risk it for a laugh.
I heard the hometown of John Holmes got 13" ;-)
I think its safe to say that we are well over a foot of snow now.
we got 15-16 or so inches here in college park, md. (that may be a bit underestimated though)
the report from union county is about 3 inches, it started realy snowing about 5:30
More than a foot in southern Mongomery County PA.......
How many inches you want? There's supposed to be anywhere from 8 inches to 15 in NYC when all's said and done.
Uh, out here in sunny southern California it's a nice balmy 67 degrees right now.....
So far in NYC, the total snowfall is over 20", in Queens & Staten Island they got 2 feet of snow.
Like last week, the SB W was running on the Sea Beach, making all stops.
Also like last week, the SB N was running light all the way.
Unlike last week, the NB N was terminating at 36th instead of Pacific. Furthermore, it was running on the 4th Avenue local track, making local stops, because a W train was laid up on the NB express track. (The SB express track is always closed on weekends, for R train layups. The NB express track is normally open, and I don't know why a W train would be laid up there with the yard so close unless it had to be taken out of service for some reason or tonight's another Plan 2.) N trains were relaying north of 36th. (There was also an R-40 trainset laid up on the SB DeKalb bypass track; I don't think I've ever seen that before.) The result is that the T/O who I expected to be leaving 86th at 2:15 this afternoon was nowhere in sight, since the regular schedule was thrown out the window.
Here's the full scoop on this weekend's B Division GO's, as far as Brian Weinberg and I could tell today:
A: Local NB Canal-59th, normal otherwise.
L: As described in other posts. Both single-track segments were running R-42 sets. The Brooklyn-bound run from Union Square to Bedford was especially quick, with no timers. We didn't slow down at all for the two bypassed stations (I'm sure we annoyed the cop stationed at the tunnel entrance, even though the station was otherwise closed). The only disappointment was a lone signal in the middle of the tube, signed GT 10, but apparently the timer wasn't working since we had to key by. Signage was poor (both trains were signed for full 8th Avenue - Rockaway Parkway service, and they both left from the "wrong" tracks at Union Square) and the C/R didn't bother to announce the bypassed stops in advance.
N: 86th Street to 36th Street, NB only, local.
Q: Local north of Canal.
R: As described in the advisory. At least one R-32 set ran on the north (V) segment; we rode it from 14th to the south terminal and back up to the north terminal.
W: As described in the advisory, but via Sea Beach SB and via express from 14th to 34th. I think the idea was to time W's so they met Q's at 34th. Unfortunately, the train we rode got the wrong lineup at 14th, so we did meet a Q at 34th, but we had to wait for it to leave since we were both on the local track. By the time we got to 42nd, it was gone.
Cold Weather/Snow Plan 4 is in effect. Trains laid up underground.
(both trains were signed for full 8th Avenue - Rockaway Parkway service, and they both left from the "wrong" tracks at Union Square) and the C/R didn't bother to announce the bypassed stops in advance.
I can just see the people running down from the Broadway line US station, all happy seeing the train there and jumping on the L (as the doors close) they think is going toward Canarsie, but instead are amazed (and angry) to see toward 8th instead, once inside.
This was indeed happening. I was at Union Square going west. Before the L came, they made at least three announcements about the new service; there were paper signs saying "Brooklyn trains this side -->" and "<-- 8 Av trains this side". Once we got on, the C/R also announced it.
Yet when the C/R went to close the doors, he said "next stop 6th Ave" and over half the passengers ran off the train, even ones who had already been at the platform when the train arrived.
W: As described in the advisory, but via Sea Beach SB and via express from 14th to 34th. I think the idea was to time W's so they met Q's at 34th. Unfortunately, the train we rode got the wrong lineup at 14th, so we did meet a Q at 34th, but we had to wait for it to leave since we were both on the local track.
They must have been doing something really weird then, since there are no X-overs at 14 St 8-) On Saturday, both the Q and W were running local, with the W crossing at 34 St and the Q at 49.
Really? I could have sworn I saw one from the front of the train yesterday. I know it's not on the track map but I figured it might have been a recent installation.
Then most W's were switching to the express at Canal (crossing paths with the Q). At two different times of the day, we saw a W on the NB express track at 34th with a Q across the platform. When we finally rode it, the W stopped at Prince and 8th but bypassed 23rd and 28th only to have to wait for a Q to get out of its way at 34th.
SB everything I saw ran local to Canal.
Was the N turning at 36th all day? We were hoping to catch you at Bay Parkway but the the shortened run messed everything up.
They started laying up snowbirds really early in the morning, so by the time I showed up at 0716, there had already been quite a number of short-turned trains. Even had everything been working correctly, we were running a supplement on the N, so I had only three trips, none at my regular times. Just be glad you didn't try to find me today. My put-in and three trips from Brighton became a put-in and a round trip to Whitehall with a BO train. We left Brighton at 0653 and got back at 1235.
Why were you running a supplement on the N? Were you running a supplement last weekend?
I'm impressed that the Brighton line was passable at 1235.
Good thing that all the weekend GO's were for the weekend proper and not for the extended holiday weekend.
We were running a supplement this week because last week, without a supplement, was such a disaster.
Depends on what you mean by passable. As we headed south, it was almost as though it were magic - 8 R68s running down the ROW without rails. All that was visible was the switch points (let's hear it for heaters), the third rail protection board, and the signals. Four of those were stuck, so I had to go down and dig out the stop arms. After we got to Brighton at 1235, there were only two more trains to arrive until I left at 1323.
"but via Sea Beach SB and via express from 14th to 34th."
"Unfortunately, the train we rode got the wrong lineup at 14th, so we did meet a Q at 34th, but we had to wait for it to leave since we were both on the local track. By the time we got to 42nd, it was gone."
How could you wait for a lineup at N/B 14th st/Union Square? There are NO switches between Prince St and north of 34th st.
Since I have plenty of time to spare today. I gonna share my journey at the Broadway Subway line.
8AM Today, Well, the weather wasn't pleasant. So, instead of stay at my warm coasy apartment at Chinatown, I've decided to check out Today's GO on the Broadway Line. First, went Grand St, brought a fun-pass, hop on the shuttle, get off at Broadway-Lafayette for downtown 6, get off canal, hop on the uptown W, ends at and get off at Time Sq, Grab a quick bite, went back to the station, ask the token clerk for RW Service Advisory Take-one, got it, finally! go downstair to the Brooklyn Bound Platform and saw the empty W siting at the Q Platform. Wait inside the empty R68A W Train to keep self warm. 5 sec, the Q show up at the N R W platform, hop on the Q, listing to the conductor said This Q Train run local and make all stops to Canal St. We proceed to 34st, This black female conductor had me amazed, she "this 34 st, transfer to the available D,F, and path train and also transfer to the available R at the F platform and checkout the Macy's Department Store at the upperlevel" I was like.."She is really good!. Get off at 34, went down to the downtown F platform. Saw D sitting on its own track. Wait for either R or F to show up. Crowed F comes, Hop on the crowed F, saw two guys holding hands and kissing together. Well, that doesn't bother me, This is NYC! when to 2Ave, get off and saw two empty R46 R sitting on the V platform. Stay at 2 nd Ave for while (about 2hrs) and take some pic on the R. Its 1:45 PM, Out of 100 R46 R train, only ONE R32 R Train Shows Up. That was the best moment. Took serval pic on the R32 R with the V Signage. When I get my Scanner, I'll post this pic here. Hop on the R32 R, went to back 34 for Brooklyn W. Samo R68W shows up. Went to Whitehall and saw another R32 R sitting at the terminal. Took serval pics on that. Hop a back to the W, went to Pacific, get off, didn't see any N there. Waited 10 min at the same platform, and guess what?. an R32 diamond W showed up. Woohoo! Yeeha. Never seen one b4, and now its woohoo! Took 10 pic shot on that to add to my Subway album. its 3:00Pm. Thought to stick around to see if any surprising R40S W or maybe R46 W show up. Well, it late. Called it quit for the day. Try again next weekend.
Since I have plenty of time to spare today. I gonna share my journey at the Broadway Subway line.
8AM Today, Well, the weather wasn't pleasant. So, instead of stay at my warm coasy apartment at Chinatown, So, I've decided to check out Today's GO on the Broadway Line. First, went Grand St, brought a fun-pass, hop on the shuttle, get off at Broadway-Lafayette for downtown 6, get off canal, hop on the uptown W, ends at and get off at Time Sq, Grab a quick bite, went back to the station, ask the token clerk for RW Service Advisory Take-one, got it, finally! go downstair to the Brooklyn Bound Platform and saw the empty W siting at the Q Platform. Wait inside the empty R68A W Train to keep self warm. 5 sec, the Q show up at the N R W platform, hop on the Q, listing to the conductor said This Q Train run local and make all stops to Canal St. We proceed to 34st, This black female conductor had me amazed, she said "this 34 st, transfer to the available D,F, and path train and also transfer to the available R at the F platform and checkout the Macy's Department Store at the upperlevel" I was like.."She is really good!. Get off at 34, went down to the downtown F platform. Saw D sitting on its own track. Wait for either R or F to show up. Crowed F comes, Hop on the crowed F, saw two guys holding hands and kissing together. Well, that doesn't bother me, This is NYC! when to 2Ave, get off and saw two empty R46 R sitting on the V platform. Stay at 2 nd Ave for while (about 2hrs) and take some pic on the R. Its 1:45 PM, Out of 100 R46 R train, only ONE R32 R Train Shows Up. That was the best moment. Took serval pic on the R32 R with the V Signage. When I get my Scanner, I'll post this pic here. Hop on the R32 R, went to back 34 for Brooklyn W. Samo R68W shows up. Went to Whitehall and saw another R32 R sitting at the terminal. Took serval pics on that. Hop a back to the W, went to Pacific, get off, didn't see any N there. Waited 10 min at the same platform, and guess what?. an R32 diamond W showed up. Woohoo! Yeeha. Never seen one b4, and now its woohoo! Took 10 pic shot on that to add to my Subway album. its 3:00Pm. Thought to stick around to see if any surprising R40S W or maybe R46 W show up. Well, it late. Called it quit for the day. Try again next weekend.
I was planning to be at Times Sq and 34St on the Broadway platform's to help people out who didnt have any idea what was going on but it was to cold out there so I'll do it next weekend,I don't care if it snow's like it is now.
Well, at least it was a bit warm in the subway.
Oh man, I am so pumped for tomorrow! If there is any day to get photos of the NYC Subway in the snow, TOMORROW IS IT! I'm getting up early tommorrow and heading to the:
1. Sea Beach Line
2. Brighton Line
3. Dyre Ave Line
4. Far Rockaway Line
But not neccesarily in that order. I've got 300+ megs of smart media cards, four sets of batteries, camera, long johns, a sweatshirt, coat, hat, and gloves. I'm gonna take photos till my fingers stop working. I encourage everyone who has the chance to get out there and take photos. This may be your last chance to get Redbirds in some serious snow! Good luck to you all, and stay warm and safe!
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
I would have been working the Dyre Line tomorrow but I'm off.
I'm sorry I picked to work.
Dave -- you lucky stiff! At least you don't have to go driving in this monster of a storm...
I'll call you tomorrow.
I needed a day off after Saturday's event. That 12-9 messed everything up.
Before anyone ask it wasn't me it was a S/B #4 train at Mosh Pkway.
Yea, I hear yeah. It happened about 15 min before I cleared at Mott. Not like that GO didn't mess things up already anyway.
You where at Mott PM's?! I was there as well working the #5 Line. I got stuck on the Lay Up.
Yeah I was working the 4/5 side. Was there Saturday and Sunday PMs.
The lay up, you mean the 2043 Utica that got screwed at 59 or one of the other snowbird screwups?
No the 22:41 WDL messed us up I was with my T/O on the lay-up N of Bedford PK. I was the 21:33.
Ah. Man that sucks. Sorry to hear that. What used to bug me the most when stuff like that happened the T/D would say "well at least you're being paid."
I know! I don't know how many times I heard that.
Also I only work Mott on this G.O Saturdays. I came in around 3:30PM to sign on.
Gotcha. Well, I may be around there next week as the CDO seems to want to put me in the GO job every week. Which isn't too bad as long as things go OK.
I wish you luck in getting pictures of the "Redbirds" in the snow.
#3 West End Jeff
Well if the past tells me anything it tells me I ain't getting anywhere tomorrow, and likewise, you're not getting anywhere near the Rock tomorrow :)
You'll eat your words, mister! :)
Service suspended between Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway.
Ummm... you want fries with that? :-)
SO that gives us these:
-Service suspended between Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway.
-Dyre Line between East 180 and Dyre.
-The entire M line suspended (so no rail between Myrtle and Metro - I assume the J is fine on Broadway).
-The Staten Island Railway is completely shut down from end to end
LIRR:
-Delays scattered about 30 minutes, some lengthier, but doing pretty well overall. Someone mentioned a slight derailment on the Port Washington Line, but I didn't hear anything about it in the LIRR report on Channel 2 about a minute ago.
Am I missing anything?
MNRR running hourly service with locals going all the way to New Haven, PGH, Brewster, and 30-45 minute delays, according MTA web site.
I suspect they're running diesels and catenary only, given that in '96 they blew out the motors on a lot of electrics using the 3rd rail.
I believe there's no Rockaway Park Shuttle service between B 116th Street and Broad Channel; it's been suspended as well.
No Q south of DeKalb or W south of 50th. Fred should be happy -- the N is apparently running.
Correction - N is also affected. This from MTA website at 4:45:
* 5 - Dyre Avenue service is suspended between E. 180th Street and Dyre Avenue
* Service on the Staten Island Railroad is suspended.
* A - service is suspended between Rockaway Boulevard and Far Rockaway.
* F - service is suspended between Jay Street and Church Avenue. A shuttle train is operating between Church Avenue and Avenue X.
* G - service is suspended between Bedford/Nostrand Ave. and Smith and 9th Street. A shuttle is running from Bedford/Nostrand to Hoyt/Schermerhorn.
* N - service is suspended between 86th Street and 59th Street in Brooklyn.
* W - service is suspended between 59th Street and Stillwell Avenue/Coney Island
* Q - service is suspended between Brighton Beach and Dekalb Avenue
It isn't as you corrected yourself. But he has this consoloation, the Brighton isn't running either.
Ooh, I'm so jealous!
I do have a digital camera, but it's a horrible model. This day is going to waste for me! >:(
After wrestling with trying to get Opera to work with Windows XP I finally installed the latest version of Opera which happens to be version 7 and it WORKS!! At last!! Maybe I'll finally be able to chuck Windows 98 SE and its problems in time.
#3 West End Jeff
I've been using Opera 7 BETA for a few months now. I like it a lot. It does crash often when I try to scroll backwards or forwards through too many pages at once.
I'm trying Opera 7 on the hard drive that runs Windows 98 SE. You shouldn't be having problems with crashing if you're running Windows XP based on my limited experience with it. Eventually, I'll probably be running XP either on my present computer or on a brand new computer.
#3 West End Jeff
Windows XP doesn't crash, just Opera does. It doesn't bring down the whole system when it crashes. That's the diff betw 98 and XP. If a program has bugs, it isn't gonna crash any less in XP than it would in 98. But remember, I'm using the BETA, so that could be why it is crashing. I will get the FINAL 7 version soon.
---Brian
The final version crashes too, on occasion. Even on 98, it never takes down the whole system.
I have performed enough updates on Windows 98 SE so that if a program does crash I can usually close down the offending program. Alas, it doesn't work every time and usually if Netscape Communicator crashes and brings up the BSOD, I'm finished and I have to restart the cxomputer. When Netscape Communicator fouls up, it is usually BAD NEWS!! If it is another program, I can shut it down.
#3 West End Jeff
It's time to upgrade to Opera 7.01 final. (Don't worry, I was also running the beta until Friday.) Still not perfect, but pretty nice overall. I really like the wand feature.
I'll probably download it soon. I found out about Opera 7.01 on their website a few hours ago.
#3 West End Jeff
Anyone have any plans on traveling via subway tomorrow (provided they can clear the snow from their front doors?).
If possible, I might attempt to do one of the local elevated lines in Brooklyn like New Lots, Jamaica or Canarsie -- mostly to get some good snow scenes (particularly of trains flying past creating snow trails).
As you can tell from my post a little while ago, I'll be out there! But I want to spend most of my time taking photos, only riding to get to the next photo op.
---Brian
Unfortunately, I have an important phone call in the morning. But I hope to be out in the afternoon. I was going to try to hook up with Brian at some point but I don't see why it couldn't be the three of us.
In the snow, I'm invariably drawn to the open cuts -- Sea Beach, Brighton, Dyre -- and to the Flats. But elevated lines aren't bad -- I got some great shots in the early December storm at 125th and Dyckman on the 1, and of course I hit the requisite Smith-9th.
This sucks, I ain't gonna be able to get out there this time. Take quite a few good ones and don't forget to post them.
Hmm, good luck with your attempt.
I don't even have a good camera on my hands, so why bother?
Because riding the subway in the snow is fun!
It is, but the only way to get out from where I am is through the Q65, Q25 and the Q20A/B to the 7. The snow seems to be too burdensome for me...
The snow is certainly not burdomsome for me, but I can understand your concern using buses in this type of snow. I'm in walking distance to a lesser service LIRR station, and only a mile from a heavy service LIRR station, but the LIRR is already running 30 minutes late now, and some trains canceled. I don't want to go to the city to ride the subway, and then get stuck there trying to get home this evening.
I wouldn't really want to move back to my old neighborhood, but I do long for the days when I was only one block from the subway - I could even see it from my window!
I wouldn't really want to move back to my old neighborhood, but I do long for the days when I was only one block from the subway - I could even see it from my window!
Well, I just heard that in addition to the A in Rockaway, the M is completely out too, so I guess I would have been screwed even if I still lived near the M train.
I wonder how the L is faring out in Canarsie.
I'm heading out in about an hour to tackle the FS (but of course). From there I'll grab a C to the A and ride to Howard Beach IF things have been cleared. I overheard a ham radio broadcast of B2 Divsion where the SET train was having trouble out on the Rockaway Line...maybe things have cleared up by now.
SIX HOURS on the same blanking train after a two hour early report. You, my friend, have a warped idea of FUN.
I hate early reports the last time I had one I cough your N/B #2 at Times SQ to 96 Street to find out my train wasn't even there.
I said riding, not operating.
With so many lines out of service today, what do their crews end up doing all day?
Having been there many years ago, I'm sure it remains the same. You sit and wait for an interval. Might happen, might not. :)
You sit and wait for an interval. Might happen, might not. :)
And of course the dreaded call for an interval with 15 minutes to go before you clear if no other crews available.
After along awaited abscence I am back online, kind of anyway, I finally made it to New England (thanks Coast Guard). Just want to give a quick shout to the Branford crew to let them know I am back online, albeit with a new handle.
Well, up here in New Bedford, MA the snow is coming still coming down. We have tommorrow off and I plan on heading into Boston to try and catch some of the Type-3 plows on the Mattapan-Ashmont high speed line. Unfortunately my scanner is in storage along witrh the rest of my stuff until we move into housing in Cape Cod, or I would post some pictures.
Till next time, keep it on the post,
Steve Loitsch
Dan hasn't been on all day, and I understand from the TV News that Baltimore is really getting clobbered with this snow!
Got a call from a friend in Maryland...and they have something akin to 24 inches!! I'd guess Dan is knee deep in the snow dept.!
We watched a TV show from a Baltimore TV station tonight, and during one of the commercial breaks the local weatherman indicated that they are expecting 36 inches before it is over.
36 inches, that's a lot of snow!
S'no kidding! :)
Daughter, who shares phone line with modem, was home (and on phone) all day, so no internet.
It's now 1:23 AM Monday morning and it's still snowing. 24-26 inches already and forecast is for 6-12 inches more by this evening.
BSM didn't open, neither did the B&O Musuem, the MTA here pulled the buses off at noon and shut the subway and light rail line down to passengers about 4:30, but trains continued to run, all night if possible, to keep the rails clear as possible. MARC service is suspended. Decisons will be made tomorrow.
Dan,
too bad you guys passed on our Yonkers Sweeper #59.....she'd 've
kept that line open :)
Do you have Diagrams of the R143 and R46? Im trying to get a Model done, I need Diagrams, Good Lookin
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I have a diagram of the R-46 that gives basic dimensions but not one for the R-143.
Ok Can you send the R46 Diagrams?? Thanks Train Dude and what other diagrams do you have?
Send me an e-mail and I'll see if I can help you out. No promises!!!
For R143 diagrams, look to Kawasaki's website. For R46 diagrams, you can look at Gene Sansome's book, or you can contact Pullman-Standard (there is still such a company, though they may have folded into another business). They are no longer in the passenger railcar business, but they might be able to send you some brochures, which they produced in the 1970s. There might strill be a few floating around in an office somewhere. I believe the company is in Chicago.
I was talking to one of my cousins who works for the CTEM (car and track maintenance department) division at Metro's Alexandria rail division, and he said that Metro is paying for a night at a hotel for him b/c he lives in Gaithersburg, MD and can't get home. Props to Metro for caring.
After some moderate snow it has become light again in intensity, about 2 inches so far with a long way to go.
Well at least I saw the village plow (a ford pickup truck with a plow attached!).
I have about 3 inches in Hastings-on-Hudson and the plows are out in force.
#3 West End Jeff
I'd say we have at least 3 inches here on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I saw a garbage truck with a plow on the front. How silly. But I guess that's the way they do things around here.
---Brian
I'd say we have at least 3 inches here on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I saw a garbage truck with a plow on the front. How silly. But I guess that's the way they do things around here.
Mounting plows on garbage trucks is standard practice in most places. Except maybe in the very snowiest locations, municipalities and counties aren't going to have a fleet of trucks dedicated exclusively to snow plowing, as they'd be idle most of the time. Garbage trucks are pressed into plow service as they're available and have the capability.
Where I'm from, private companies haul away the trash, so my township has it's own snowplow and the state has its own snow plows for the state owned roads and highways.
---Brian
Guess you are a recent NYC resident. A snow plow attached to a garbage truck has been standard NYC snow removal procedure for as long as I can remember (at least half a century). The Sanitation Dept. is responsible for street cleaning including snow removal. Most of its fleet of trucks are garbage haulers (naturally). Also used are salt spreaders with plows attached.
Just watched the Weather Channel and visted NOAA. National Weather Service has upgraded from Winter Storm Warning to Blizzard Warning for The Tri-State and Conn. Meteoroligist predicting the storm continues to intensified and the next 12-24 is critical as it center is sitting on Caroline Coast. I'm bit surprised to hear this has serval features. From Severe Thunderstorm in FL to Flood in Tenn to Ice outbreak in VA to This Raging Snow. This Storm is diffinitely getting some major attentions.
Mommy Nature saids "You want Snow and tired of Mild Winter? Now here's one for all of yah.
Yeah, Mama is just showing who is boss. Two points:
1. This is gonna make it hard on the Global Warming folks.
2. The one good thing about Canada. Gotta love `em for the chill.
It's 2am, and things are a MESS.
I have my radio on "A" division frequency. E.180 seems to be the most hectic place. With 2's and 5's on the road, test trains, "snowbirds" on their way to wherever, and signal problems, I can see that Monday is going to be nuts. Luckily it's not a work day for most people.
My guess is that they'll put the snowbirds on 3 tk between 59 and 125 and leave them their until Tuesday morning. This will include trains from the 5 and 6 lines. Some will even lay-up between Brooklyn Bridge and 42.
The 4 line has it good, Their trains are protected by Tracey Towers over Mosholu Yard. The 7 also has things good. Their snowbirds were done by 11pm laying up between TSQ and GC.
You guys crack me up. You'd think you're all from South Florida and never saw snow before! Got news for you, kids - it snows from time to time in the big city.
I forget that kids still get excited by snow (G). I do too...when I don't have to drive in it or shovel it!
It nevers snows big in NYC. I guess you're not from Upstate NY or Northestern PA.
I'm surprised this thread doesn't already exist (unless I missed it somewhere).
Basically, saturday night I spotted two troops wandering around the L platform at union square, carrying M16s.
I expected to see that at grand central, but i passed through there during the week and saw a lot less police and guard than I had in the last few months. the only 2 guys i saw were 2 cops with shotguns.
cops with guns i don't mind. machine guns, shot guns, whatever. more or less, they know how to handle themselves in a crowd... but are these troops given any training specific to the urban environment? is it just me thinking that guys, possible unfamiliar with the city, with large machine guns in a confined area filled with innocent bystander civilains might not be a good mix?
guess we're all gunna have to get used to such sights around town and hope nothing goes awry...
From what I have heard the NG troops' weapons are not loaded and their presence is for more of a visual effect.
You've heard wrong. The weapons are loaded but the rounds are not chambered. Bear in mind that chambering a round takes only a couple of seconds.
Well then we can only hope that those picked for this duty have some prior law enforcement experiance. Compared to State Police and SWAT teams, Army and NG training is like a correspondence cource. A weekend warrior blazing away in away in a crowded public space will trigger a storm of lawsuits such the likes of which you have never seen before.
I have spent a lot of time here recently, in the background, gaining knowledge about the subways and other transit issues. I have a lot of stuff I've scanned and am preparing to share with others. I've learned a lot from most contributers. Of the handfull of bull artists out there, you are by far the most ignorant and obnoxious. I hate to make my first real input to this board a diatribe against anybody, but you have managed to raise my spite beyond holding back.
I find it hard to believe a still wet behind-the-ears college student know-it-all can be that ignorant about the Army and National Guard. I have spent 31 years working my way up from PVT to First Sergeant (and future Sergeant Major). I take great offense at your "Correspondence Course" attitude of the Military. I, as well as those other thousands I work with, perform our duties in a highly professional and well trained manner.
I have already spent five sessions of Homeland Defense duty since 9/11. I've stood guard alongside my troops on the Bridges and Tunnels, PATH facilities and Airports. I've both froze and sweated my butt on the GWB. My weapon was always loaded. I can chamber a round in a second. I am well trained in how my weapon works and on when and how to use it.
I do this in addition to taking care of my family and working my full-time job. I spend more time "for the flag", always practicing, learning, honing my skills, than the weekend a month and 15 days every summer (or winter) I get paid for. Every time I go on duty, I lose money from my regular job. Shortly, I'll be on my way to helping Jerseyans dig out of this storm.
Before you go mouthing off about the Military, especially the National Guard, I suggest you spend some time in our boots and see what we have to put up with. See your local recruiter or call 1-800-GO GUARD. I guarantee you will learn to think before you speak very quickly in Basic Training.
I'm backing you up gearloose.
A retired E-7
Take your issue up with the NJ State Police ESU officer I was taking to, or anyone in the Marine corps or my friend's father Air Force father who got really pissed off when I slipped and said Army instead of air force. While you might posess mega job skills, almost everyone you talk to tends to consider the Army to be the bottom of the barrel national service wise with the National Guard below them. Police ESU teams do their job full time and are far more qualified at what they do than Guardsmen. There is a specific time and place for Guard involvment, but using them helter skelter without some sort of additional considerations is irresponsible at best. The military is not law enforcement and when it is used as such situations tend to explode.
The Guard goes contain a good proportion of active police officers and former active duty soldiers and I hope that there is some thoughtful consideration given to who exactly goes on urban passifacation duty.
Police ESU teams do their job full time and are far more qualified at what they do than Guardsmen.
One funny thing about most of the ESU cops I've seen is that most of them look like pretty feeble physical specimens. Sorta like the newbies I see at the gym who can barely manage to bench press 135 pounds. I mean, I'm sure the ESU dudes are well-trained and everything, but sometimes in police work there's just no substitute for raw muscle power.
Mike,
I hope you don't go to Kent State!
-Robert King
Well put.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do take comfort in the fact that the bumbling idiot who's the mayor of Toronto (and has thankfully decided to retire at the end of his current term) isn't the only person to call in the army to shovel snow.
Anyways, one thing I have learned about working in a uniformed profession is that people will do this sort of thing. Don't take it too seriously - the insults are almost never directed personally.
-Robert King
I was down in Homestead Fl doing building inspections after huricane andrew destroyed the area in 1992. there was a confrontation between army troops and local drug boys. the army had one round to chamber and the drug boys had ak-47's guess who took who's weapons?
jv
I saw them saturday night at Flatbush at the LIRR as i was making the 11:15 to far rock
they were just standing there talking, i have a feeling they have never handled subway or LIRR crime and cant tell the difference between a terrorist and a package-laiden rude person
>>> i have a feeling they have never handled subway or LIRR crime and cant tell the difference between a terrorist and a package-laiden rude person <<<
First, they are not law enforcement officers, and therefore do not need to handle subway or LIRR crime. Second they know the terrorist is the one firing an AK-47, or throwing grenades, something the typical package laden rude person does not do. They are not there to make an arrest, but to kill someone if necessary.
Tom
There where at every stop on the Lex Line Saturday night.
I guess it gives Curtis Sliwa and his Guardian Angels a chance for a vacation...
"I guess it gives Curtis Sliwa and his Guardian Angels a chance for a vacation"
The only vacation Curtis gets is from his radio gig with Ron Kuby!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, a while back someone said that if the "High" alert wasn't a fraud, where is the national guard? And here it is.
I'm really ticked at Bush on the generational equity issue, with all that debt and narrow benefit tax cuts. But I don't think they are playing games with the terror issue. He may be wrong, but I think he's doing what he thinks is right.
2 were at Sutphin/Archer on the E/J last night. Not used to seeing BIG GUNS. Didn't want to be close to them at all.
Had "fun" with a suspicious package at 47/50 Rock Center last night. Waited a while until cops decided to close off the station and service bypass. Called my wife in case it was the "real thing." Just don't know anymore. Someone left their bag behind, had a nice American flag pin on it, front and center.
I just learned that on Feb 12th Amtrak grounded all of itd MHC "box cars" in the 1400 and 1500 numbering series. These are the dirty gray ones with the big wheel on each side. Amtrak said that they learned that the cars were vulnerable to sertain track anomolies and could become unstable at speeds over 60 mph. While none of these anomolies are present on the Amtrak owned and maintained NEC, Amtrak can not vouch for the safety of freight lines and Metro North and therefore imposed a 60 mph speed restriction on the MHC's in those territories. As this would totally ruin the schedule of any Amtrak train the MHC's have been totally removed from service.
Many of the longer distance Mail hauling routes as well as the dedicated NEC Mail trains 10 and 13 and the Twilight Shoreliner mail cars have been transferred to truck transport. For intra-NEC runs the mail is being hauled on Budd heritage baggage cars. In an odd twist of fate, because Amtrak just got out of the express freight bussiness it has a surplus of roadrailers and express box cars. These were going to be sold, but are not being pressed back into service to replace the once ubiqutious 1400 and 1500 series MHC's. It is not known weather the 135 MHC's will ever return to service.
Amtrak has a 200 million dollar contract with the USPS to haul mail and it is not known what effect this will have on their relationship.
Amtrak Learned?
Total spin, CSX has had a limit of 60 on those cars for months. Check out last months TRAINS.
No kidding. It was the FRA who slapped the 60mph on those cars too, from what I've read.
What will Amtrak do?
Probbably sub out the USPS mail stuff to a trucking firm.
As I said, they have more than enough cars left over from their recently eliminated express shipping venture. They sould be back to full service in a week or so.
Actually, I think CSX, NS, and BNSF are who grounded them as a result of the Empire derailment of the test train. They are not convinced it was caused totally by a track defect. Trouble with the Express cars is that they have no HEP pass-thru lines, which means they have to be at the rear of the train, even when operationally inconvenient, like the Boston section of the LSL.
SEPTA has announced that Route 100 (private right-of-way), Route 101, and Route 102 (both street-running) will not operate on Monday Feb 17.
Just thought I'd throw it out there...I know a couple of guys will post a wiseass remark that it's a 'Plan 9' but the real numbering doesn't go that high. ;)
I'm thinking the highest, 4, but maybe it'll be 3 with high alert or something.
I know a couple of guys will post a wiseass remark that it's a 'Plan 9'
Hey Doug... I thought you'd be out already and up on one of the elevated stations of the J line... I would have joined you, but today's the 3rd Annual Heypaul Bitter Cold Bike Ride...
I REALLY don't know in this case. What do the plans mean? I'm assuming they are related to the snow?
Worked Tour 1 instead of Tour 2 so I just got home. Snowdrifts and spinouts impressive, so if you're going anywhere today do it by TRAIN! LIRR Main Line OK, holiday schedule. IRT 2 OK, R-142s caked in snow. Visibility in blowing snow less than the end of da BLOCK! Rode the RFW on LIRR and visibility was almost zero. Didn't see the snowplow train but I'll walk over to the station (Queens Village) later (when I thaw out) and try to get a picture as it rolls by. So far this AM citywide 46 car accidents snow-related. PS Let the KIDS shovel the snow today!
Be safe and warm.
Well, I hear it might slow down after 10:00, so I'll shovel then. If that's the case, perhaps the wife and kids can go to the museum in Queens later this afternoon. The MTA is saying no schedule changes "at this time."
Boy were they lying. By 1000, service was out on the Q, mostly out on the N and W and completely given up in the Rockaways.
I will be on WCBS 9-11am for Transit and Weather Together.
SubTalkers -- please "check in" with snow total amounts. Please put the time of the observation and your town/neighborhood on the message... I can't use anything more than an hour old.
Email me directly at radio88@radio88.net so you don't clutter the board.
I also expect to be on later today 4-8pm so you can do it again then with storm totals.
I probably won't be able to reply as I'll be extremely busy, so thanks in advance.
Thanks to all who checked in.
I'm off until 4pm, then back on from 4pm-8pm or later. Please check in with more snowfall totals again after 3pm via email... it really helps me with Transit and Weather Together
SubTalkers willing to check in with current snow totals, please email me directly at radio88@radio88.net. I need your first name, snow total, and town/neighborhood.
Thanks in advance if I cannot reply to all. I expect to be on WCBS 880 until at least 8pm so reports through then appreciated.
Cool! Interacive radio. I'm famous (LOL). Glad to help.
I e-mailed also, but FYI there is 17 to 19 inches in my backyard, ignoring the high drifts and troughs. Much less than the 28 inches in 1996.
I have got 26 inches and it started to snow again. Here in the Bronx.
12 inches here in Sea Cliff at 10am.
I also have about a foot right here in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York
#3 West End Jeff
Maryland broke the all-time recorded record with 26.6 inches of the white stuff. The prior record holder was 26.5 in January 1922.
I think this disqualified Maryland from membership in the Sunbelt once and for all.
Todd,
13 inches in Westport, CT....and it's still snowing!
-Nick
Thanks to all who checked in and reported, from North Dakota, to Baltimore, to Pennsylvania... to the Greatest City in the World.
Even the News Director on WCBS remarked how pleased he was to hear the "local" observations. Thanks SubTalkers for making Transit and Weather Together better.
10" here in suburban Boston now, with that amount yet to come. I wonder if I'll be able to catch my usual MBTA Commuter Train in to work tomorrow?
From what I can hear on the scanner Rockaway service is out. There are snow sweepers out there, but they are having problems. One Rockaway shuttle train has been stuck out there for about 5 hours.
Aaaaaaaaaargggh! I was gonna head out there soon! Ok, Goumba Tony, you were right.
---Brian
Well, I'm going to ride the A as FAR as it'll go...might be Euclid or Lefferts at this point.
I expected that would be the first line to go. I heard about an hour ago that JFK had about a foot of snow. All I could picture was the poor A train tring to get through that. I would love to see what the Sea Beach looks like right now. I would assume that the Brighton and the Sea Beach would be the most interesting right now.
I'm sure some ot the LIRR electric lines will be next, like Long Beach. That's something that Metro North has over the LIRR with the different third rails, and usually fares better than the LIRR in snow. The LIRR, like the subway, has to contact the snow-covered top of the rail, while MN only has to grap the clean bottom.
JFK measured 20" at 8am. So I expect the same along the Rock A line.
My metal yardstick is showing 21" in Queens Village NOW. It won't be long before they need Rotary plows here like they have out west!
Good thing the MTA website is keeping up: "At this time, there are no changes in service."
This is no surprise here since this is an outdoor line. But I have a question. Is almost impossible to clear the branch from Rockaway blvd to the Rockaways? Yes I have heard that they (MTA) have trains that spray some kind of solution on the tracks (correct me if I am wrong) but does it do the job well?
Also in the past has there been any problems on the Rockaway line due the snow, such as drailments and switch problems?
Actually its for the 3rd Rail I believe.
If you have about 20 inches, like Todd said in the other thread, nothing they spray on the tracks is going to do anything. And once the third rail gets buried, it gets harder and harder for the trains to get through. Diesel service anyone?
The els fare a little better because with the passing of each train, it probably shakes some of the snow off the el and third rail. The Sea Beach and Brighton in open cuts, however, may start to have some delays if the snow gets up to the JFK levels.
I think you are talking about the special rail adhesion trains, which spray a coating over the rails in order to keep trains from sliding on the rails while outdoors on embankments, open cuts, and open air stuctures during inclement weather.
Unfortunately, the rail adhesion does little when dealing large amounts of snowfall such as what we're dealing with now.
Damn, it sucks to be stuck here in Rochester when NYC gets all the snow. I like the snow, because it makes for great photo compositions and it was just too bad that these past few years have been basically snowless in the city. Now in college, I have less time to go railfanning and I miss the city. If anyone wants to donate some snowy pictures to my website, www.nyrail.org, just send me an email.
Thanks,
-Dan
No surprise however first mention of this was from our fellow Sub-talker Todd Glickman who is on 880 AM radio right now.
And the WCBS Traffic Center is reporting delays and suspensions on most above-ground lines... no M, reduced J,N,W. Anyone out there on the Q in the open cut? That would be great to photo today.
And the WCBS Traffic Center is reporting delays and suspensions on most above-ground lines... no M, reduced J,N,W.
No M? I guess maybe beacuse of the surface running part north of Fresh Pond. If that part is out, there's no switches anywhere from Myrtle-Broaday to Metro Avenue to switch trains.
I haven't heard a Q train since I've been up at around 7:00am. I live across the street from the cut. But the snow muffles everything so I might not hear it if it is running.
Yeah, the trains are much quieter when it snows. In cuts I guess the snow absorbs much of the sound. I remember when trains enter a station on the els you could hardly hear it entering the station. It has a distinctive sound when running on the el with snow. Definitely muffled.
A much later update. The Q did not run all day. My neighbor that lives on the track side of the street said they ran infrequently until early morning, then not at all.
When I looked, the snow was up over the third rail in places. I can hear the diesel horn in the distance, but I haven't heard it up close.
The MTA's website now says that there are no 5 trains North of E180.
I have my scanner on, loads of problems in that area, mostly signals.
it is on NY1 (24hour local news). Also the M line is closed entirly.
The only surprise is that Straphangers hasn't yet called a press conference to complain that "they" should have no right to suspend service just because of impassable tracks.
There's an R44 at the B. 60th St Station. It's been sitting there for over 2 hours.
I first realized that the "A" wasn't running at around 7:15 am when I actually saw a few people running along the platform as an R38 was very slowly crawling into the station. It stopped halfway into the station, and the passengers actually stood there in all that snow and wind for a FEW minutes waiting for that train to completely pull into the station.
Actually, I had to LOL. Reason being, as a long time resident of the Rockaways, anybody who has lived out here just for a little time knows that if there is more than 10 inches of snow on the ground, that train will not be running-guaranteed. This fact has never failed.
So my point is, why put yourself through all of the trouble of going out there?
Blizzard conditions today, opened up the front door to a wall of snow. So far about 12 inches of snow, roads have been plowed, thankfully the village is plowing the roads. The sidewalks however, are all snow covered, and to be honest, in a storm this bad, clearing the roads will have to be good enough.
According to the MTA, LI Bus service is running, and LIRR is having 30 min delays. The NYCT buses are running, but as I imagine, with major delays.
What a mess...
New York City Ordance (Law), you must clear your sidewalk by 4 hours after the last flake has fallen or by 11am the next day. Whatever is sooner.
You can't ask people to clear sidewalks until the snow stops falling.
People are safe in your town awhile since you have a wall of snow at your door.
Well even by Wednsday, I doubt many will have shoveled here in Sea Cliff. But I may report people then, but I agree, nobody has to shovel until the last flake has fallen. However with this much snow, it helps to do a little at a time, instead of facing 2 feet of snow at once!
NYC always has better enforcement of that, since unlike the city, nobody really walks around here.
I cleaned my driveway (no sidewalks here) 3 times already, and the most recent was about an hour ago. You can't even tell I did it once. It is much easier though to do it a few times, than try and move a wall of snow at the end. In Suffolk it must be up to at least 20 inces already, and there are snow drifts that are 3-4 feet high everywhere. It's like looking at waves over the ocean. I could bearly walk. Some of the drifts are up to my chest, and I'm not really short.
I did take a drive to town, just to see what it looked like, and none of the roads were plowed, but you can tell that the plows did pass through at some point on most of the roads. There were also mounds of snow taller than the houses and stores, and only one lane of traffic on a usually main road.
I was glad to get back. The turns were next to impossible to make, even with an Explorer. It's going to take a while to clean this mess up, and we still have snow falling until tonight. The best thing to do is probably to grab some DVD's and watch a few movies.
No report on the extent of damage yet, but there is potential for significant damage to the B&O's collection.
Roof collapse story
And the B&O Museum is having a BIG birthday party this summer with the largest collection of railroad equipment on the eastern seaboard, plus TWO railroad convention (NRHS & RLHS).
I hope the B&O collection can be fixed up in a jiffy.
About 1/2 of the roof is gone on the Mt. Clare building. Preliminary pictures here.
The roof collapsed due to the age of the roundhouse (1883), plus the fact that the roof trusses were reportedly cast iron and not steel, and the unfortunate fact that neither the B&O, CSX or the musuem did any major maintenance on the building for almost half a century or more.
There's a good deal of information about the roof collapse at www.rypn.org (click on "Interchange"), including various photos and some reports of what equipment was damaged. I don't know the B&ORRM collection very well at all, but from what has been said a wooden caboose is apparently heavily damaged and at least one 1800's wooden coach may have been completely destroyed. A black day for railway preservation, to be sure.
Frank Hicks
This is really sad about what happened. I heard that 3/4 of the roof is down. I can't imagine the amount of damage there. Such a beautiful place. It really is a nice place to visit. On top of that, I'm supposed to get married there in November. The museum contacted us to say that they will let us know the status about how things will be going but that the Governor has been there and they'll get their funding to replace the roundhouse. The other events scheduled in the near future will be on their agenda for now. I don't know how long something like that takes to rebuild. I'm getting a Plan B together in case we have to scrap our plans.
This is really sad about what happened. I heard that 3/4 of the roof is down. I can't imagine the amount of damage there. Such a beautiful place. It really is a nice place to visit. On top of that, I'm supposed to get married there in November. The museum contacted us to say that they will let us know the status about how things will be going but that the Governor has been there and they'll get their funding to repair the roundhouse. (I said replace in the previous one) The other events scheduled in the near future will be on their agenda for now. I don't know how long something like that takes to rebuild. I'm getting a Plan B together in case we have to scrap our plans.
How are the roofs at Branford ? The Trolley Museum of NY had a similar roof collapse years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
Haven't heard anything so I presume all is well. Two of our Board members post here on a regular basis (Thurston and Jeff Hakner) so I presume we'd hear if there was a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As dangerous as it is, you might want to get someone to shovel snow off the roofs of the barns. This would prevent the snow from accumulating to a point where the weight of it is enough to bring down some (or even all) of the roof.
A lot of kids up in cottage country earn extra money during the winter shoveling off cottage roofs for this very reason. Unless you have an A frame type cottage or one with the older style steep roofs where the incline is enough to cause the snow to fall off on its own, it's an expense that can't be avoided...
-Robert King
Ours are pretty steep... the only one that's not is the Quonset, and that's a rounded roof so it will hold a lot of weight with no problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thankfully, we have slopped roofs at BERA. Also, a Quonset hut, so our roofs should fair quite well in a blizzard like this one.
I have a number of photos taken at the B&O Museum last May 5 on a Webshots page "Around Baltimore" and six more on "Around Baltimore 2".
I have preregistered for the NRHS convention that will participate in the Fair of the Iron Horse, so I am hoping the Museum can emerge from this great difficulty.
I'm almost certain this will sound like a stupid question to many of you, but I must ask anyway. How is the snow having such a major effect on the subway system if trains are constantly going through and clearing the snow. The worst headways in the system are on the Rockaway Line at about 20? minutes. Does so much snow really fall in 20 minutes that one train can get through and the next train can't? The LIRR I guess makes more sense for it to go out. I think it makes sense for the TA to be constantly running trains along all outdoor tracks, at a prescribed interval. (Like you can send the spare Franklin Shuttle trains up and down the Brighton Express tracks every once in a while.) Also, what is Plan 1, Plan 2, etc. etc. I asked this in another thread but got no response.
Think about it logically. The snow has to go somewhere, even if the trains keep running. It's not going to disappear. On els, it's simple, it shakes off of the el to an extent each time a train passes, so not much of a big deal. In the cuts and surface lines it's more of a problem. It also gets pushed out of the way each time a train goes through, but where is it going to go? It gets pushed to the side, eventually the sides get filled up and there is nowhere else for it to go but accumalate on the tracks. In addition, if the third rail gets buried, contact becomes very difficult, and the trains get stuck.
Isn't there also an operating rule about T/O's being able to actually see the rails? I remember years ago there was such a rule, that the ROW could not be buried in snow/water if trains were to proceed...
I was wonderning since they may not be able to use the southbound express track at 4th Av to turn around trains.
That's true it would make more sense, and it would require only 1-2 extra trains.
Doesn't the G turn at Church on Saturdays? The system is running on a Saturday schedule today, so one would expect the G to turn at Church.
Now thats more like it!!!!! you go boy!!!!
No. Bedford Nostrand. The 9th St. viaduct was knocked out for a few hours this afternoon.
I think will on this top ten list http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/sotc/index.html
http://www.weather.com/newscenter/topstories/030216phillysnowPA.html
Looks like some clearing of the precip moving across southeastern PA right now, if we're lucky, it may taper off by the afternoon.
I just looked at the map on the Weather Channel and that is clearing that you see just west of Philadelphia. What is probably happening is the Low pressure system is starting to suck in dry air from the northwest thus cutting off the stream of moisture entering the storm. Once this happens, the snow will taper off and then stop altogether.
#3 West End Jeff
What do you mean, "if we're lucky, it may taper off by the afternoon."? The more the better. As the song says, "Let it snow, Let it snow, Let it snow!!!"
Jeff, I'll tell you the same thing I told Jr. when he made that same remark: "START SHOVELLING!"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ever since I purchased a 10 HP, 28" wide Monster snowblower, all the neighbors want to use it, or even worsre , have me clear their driveways. I remember 2 winters ago, when my wife was still alive,
both of us went up & down the block clearing sidewalks,
Chuck Greene
Jr. was threatening me with mayhem for not buying one myself, but with him around why do I need one? I spent the day out there too... between the two of us we cleared enough driveway to get the Ranchero in position to drive out in the morning, and then he's only got another 8' to shovel to get to the front of the Windstar (plus a path down one side so he can clean the roof). The Mustang can stay in the garage for another few days :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ch. 7 just reported a small derailment, one person injured on the Port Washington branch of the LIRR. Deja-vu '96?
Anyone have more info?
Right now alot of wind and drifting snow, just about 14 inches here,
but drifts are near 25-30 inches.
Main roads have been plowed well,side streets are a mess. So far I
havent seen any LI Buses, though main roads are passable.
The good news is there is a back edge of the precip sheild moving up
through SW New Jersey, so they heavy stuff may end by late afternoon.
Still expecting 18 to 20 inches here.
The south shore has gotten hit worse, with reports of 21 inches from
Bellmore and JFK airport.
All above ground subways and LIRR service is spotty.
Roosevelt Field is closed, as I imagine most places are.
Stay tuned and check out my blizzard of 2003 album on Imagestation, I
am user qtraindash7.
The south shore has gotten hit worse, with reports of 21 inches from Bellmore and JFK airport.
Yup, on the South Shore in Suffolk it is worse than that so far, I would say between 18 and 20 inches. Although the snow seems to be sort of sleety right now.
It's Very, Very windy, so the snowdrifts are high, at least up to my chest in many open spots.
Well, it's now about 4:30 here in Medford, we've gotten maybe 18 inches of snow, and my street has been plowed precisely once, and that was before 6:30 this morning. Cars are just barely managing to get by. Okay, it's a residential street, but it's not in the backwoods or anything. I guess the plow-boys are too busy figuring out how to spend their union overtime to actually do any work.
At least all the shoveling I've been doing is good exercise. The gym's probably closed today, so I couldn't do my usual iron-works, maybe the shoveling will help the old muscles.
Yeah, shoveling is what I was doing all day in between watching a few movies, and finally it seem that I am on top of the shoveling a bit. My street was also only plowed once or twice, and it's a mess because I guess it's about due for another plowing. It's usually one of the last ones they get to.
The south shore has gotten hit worse, with reports of 21 inches from Bellmore and JFK airport.
Yup, on the South Shore in Suffolk it is worse than that so far, I would say between 18 and 20 inches. Although the snow seems to be sort of sleety right now.
It's Very, Very windy, so the snowdrifts are high, at least up to my chest in many open spots.
I actually cannot believe that while shovelling this morning I actually found today's paper buried!!! The guy usually delivers at about 6AM and my street in East Meadow doesn't even have tire tracks on it, it doesn't look like anything came through. I guess I'll have to give him a bigger tip this month.
Its 2:00 now, and the snow has stopped in Montgomery County PA
I would say that all in all we have about two feet of snow!
I was very surprised that on NY1 this morning, they had a copy of the City Edition of Newsday on their "In The Papers" segment. I remember during previous heavy snowstorms, you could barely find Newsday in Queens, let alone Manhattan!
Jeff,
How bad is it in East Meadow? I live there, but I'm currently living in school in Brooklyn. I haven't spoken to my parents yet so I'm curious.
--MetsFan4552
I guess same as everywhere else. The main streets are drivable. I had to drive to New Hyde Park earlier to pick up my wife about 5:30 and the roads were empty.
According to NYCT, SI railway service is suspended, as well as many Staten Island buses.
Also, there is no Q service between Dekalb ave and Brighton beach, and no W service between 36th and Stillwell.
The 5 is not running up to Dyre either, and my job, City College, is closed tomorrow.
Trudged through the snow to my local LIRR station in Qns. Village and the snowdrifts are up around the plats on the E/B side. Much splendid arcing from the two M-1/3 trainsets that rolled through. Snow over the rails on the #3 track but train cane through and dispersed that. It's HARD to walk in all that snow. PS, I saw Q-36, Q-83, Q-2 and Q-110 plus TWO n-6s back-to back on my slow, snowy walk home. My trusty 42" metal drafting yardstick reads 23" on the ground as of 1315, with one drift in front of my house which BURIED my ruler. I'll try to get back up to the stastion later to get a shot of the plow as it rolls through. I still think we need a ROTARY (LOL)...
Just came back from taking pictures or the Merrick station in the snow.
The 12:53 was running 64 minutes late
electric units are serving the babylon branch-deisel only from Patchogue and Speonk
electric units are serving the babylon branch-deisel only from Patchogue and Speonk
Well, I'd sure hope Patchogue and Speonk are getting served by diesels. electrics don't really work well there in GOOD weather :)
In good weather, they just run that big long extension cord from Babylon Yard....
Did you possibly mean that the diesels from Patchogue and Speonk are serving the usually electric-only Babylon Branch? It can't work the other way.
what i meant to say is that the deisels are only serving points past babylon, not being used as local to jamaica as some may think because of the snow
Something very much out of the ordinary just past. A four car set of R68s just past the B. 60th Street Station. The car #s were 2832-35 and it was coupled onto a locamotive on both ends.
That's a Storm Emergency Train (SET). They're pulled by diesels (no lights or heat), but they move, which puts them ahead of everything else on the line, which is stuck.
David
"everything else on the line, which is stuck"
Not true. A very LOUD snow blower just blew through here at 4:01 pm and right behind it was an alcohol train.
See, everything is not stuck on this line. We have some service. LOL.
I really wanted to ride out to the Rockaways today... :(
find pictures here:
SET Train
Harry
Do the diesels used for the SET have track trips? Does other non-electric equipment have trips?
Curiously,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I think everything has trips. I know the diesels I've seen have them.
"Does other non-electric equipment have trips?"
Only hoppers don't have tripcocks.
Garbage flats have tripcocks on both sides of each truck with the diversion valves to flip them between IRT and IND lines (like SMEE Redbirds/Redbirds converted for work train service.) CI Peter
Brian, we have to ride on keith's line of these days...closest I got to the Rockaways was riding the L train from B'way Junction to Far Rockaway...the R-143 was constantly showering sparks (arcing) once we got to street-level near 105th Street. Lights flashed out and the car bucked and hesitated as the third rail shoes made contact with the snow (which was up to the third rail at most points all the way down to Rockaway Park).
The L train does not go to Far Rockaway, it goes to Rockaway Parkway in Canarsie, Brooklyn
If BMTman says he took the L train to Far Rockaway, I believe him. He has one of the saner minds here at Subtalk, which I realize isn't saying too much.
There is no way for the L train to get to Far Rockaway unless it goes to Manhattan via the J line over the Williamsburg Bridge, 6th Ave line via Chrystie Street connector and then reverse on the F to Jay St and switch to A/C line or reverse through the junction @ W4th st to A/C line.
Like I said, if BMTman said he took the L to Far Rockaway then the train must have gone "to Manhattan via the J line over the Williamsburg Bridge, 6th Ave line via Chrystie Street connector and then reverse on the F to Jay St and switch to A/C line or reverse through the junction @ W4th st to A/C line."
I can only hope he got slides of all these moves which he can show at the next ERA meeting.
OK, now you're just messing with me :)
Well I owe you an apology. That's the last time I believe anything that comes out of BMTman's keyboard. He's almost as bad as xxxx and xxxxxx. I can't mention their names because they are in my killfile.
Don't worry about it. Heck, BMTman's correction was still wrong. He noted Rockaway Park instead of Parkway. At least he was only 3 letters off this time :)
Like I said, if BMTman said he took the L to Far Rockaway then the train must have gone "to Manhattan via the J line over the Williamsburg Bridge, 6th Ave line via Chrystie Street connector and then reverse on the F to Jay St and switch to A/C line or reverse through the junction @ W4th st to A/C line."
Not at all; the wheel flanges of the diesels were able to cut into the snow enough to allow the SET to run from ENY yard out to Rockaway Pkwy, follow the old Canarsie Pier ROW to the Belt, out to Cross Bay Blvd, and over the bridge to the Rockaways.
I can only hope he got slides of all these moves which he can show at the next ERA meeting.
Doug's camera is digital; he says he took lots of shots (none of the train on the Belt, just R-68s on the Eastern Division), but a car cleaner at Rockaway Pkwy told him photography is prohibited while we're on Chartreuse Alert and made him erase everything.
I meant ROCKAWAY PARK!!! Oy....
After I put all my credibility here at Subtalk to support you when you said you took the L to Far Rockaway, now you turn around and stab me in the back and say that you made a mistake?
Well, see if I am at this month's ERA show when you deliver your 5 hour slide show covering the Franklin Shuttle.
You do???
Hey Doug:
What are you drinking to keep warm? LOL. The "L" doesn't go to Rockaway Park.
Lights flashed out and the car bucked and hesitated as the third rail shoes made contact with the snow
And this is different from normal how? Some of those cars are constantly on the verge of stalling even in good weather, and apparently Kawasaki still hasn't figured out how to fix it.
Do it during the summer. Its great out here during the summer, and you can hit the beach after doing a little railfanning :)
Why no heat or lights?
If they can contact the third rail, could they MU with the diesels?
Are they just spacers to keep the diesels weight spread out?
avid
The SETs are for times when there is no third rail power, such as a blizzard -- in those cases there will be no power for heat or lights. The cars are not spacers -- the SETs are rescue trains to get passengers to where regular service is operating.
David
And don't get your hopes up thinking if you wanna go somewhere just wait for this train and you'll get there. There are only some many run in the entire system, I think in the B division there is only 4 IIRC. 2 from Pitkin, 1 from CI YD and I forget who gets the last one (either Jamaica or CC YD). All contain 2 diesels and 4 R68's no matter what line.
Why R68's? This doesn't allow them to operate on the eastern division.
And you'll note I didn't say any of them were sent to ENY.
I have no idea why R86s. That's just what the TA picked.
So there are R-68's permanently stored at Pitkin and maybe Jamaica?
Are there any A Division rescue cars?
So there are R-68's permanently stored at Pitkin and maybe Jamaica?
No. What happens is when the TA sees that a bad storm is coming, they declare what plan will be in effect. At the same time, depending on the severity of the storm, Four 4 car sets of R68s will be transferred from CI Yard to each of the designated locations.
Are there any A Division rescue cars?
Probably, but I haven't seen any Bulletins/Notices about them.
No, this was a set that is borrowed from CI. 2832-2835 are normally assigned to the (Q).
The IRT's version of the snow emergency train was two diesels coupled to 5 R-62As. Those R-62As came from Pelham, when that yard still had them. I have no idea what the current situation is, as to whether or not R-62As are dispatched from Livonia or 240th St to be used with diesels for service on the Dyre Ave Line.
I wonder if anyone at Rapid Transit Operations and Division of Car Equipment have considered the feasibility of using R-142s on a SET.
If there is no SET available, the Dyre Av line would have to be cleared with: 1) A diesel propelled Jet Snowblower from the East 2) A De-Icer Car with a Locomotive 3) Rail Adhesion Car 8885 on a train of Redbirds or R-62/62As.
-Stef
Well, to use a 142 would require a coupler adapter, wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure that's the reason Pitkin gets 68's for the SETs instead of using the 44s it already has.
Of course, H2 Heads rule! They really do....
But there are other variations of coupler adapters..... How do diesels tow newly delivered R-142s?
-Stef
Yeah but that's during a single trip ride. I don't think they'd want a few hundred tons being pulled constantly back and forth relying on coupler adapters to hold everything together. Not that I'm saying they're weak (I don't know if they're weak or not) but to me its akin for towing a car back and forth for a few miles with chains. Wouldn't want to try it.
You're right....
Even with the 68s, you nned a coupler adapter. Diesels have the MCB Type, and are fitted with an H2 Conversion Head.
-Stef
Let's argue it this way: H2 Heads may offer greater operational flexibility that other couplers (simply an opinion). I'll leave it to the coupler experts to chime in here....
-Stef
I recall they used this type of train on the Dyre Ave. line back in 1996, pulling redbirds. Can doors be operated by battery power alone?
The problem is after anextended time without power the battery itself dies. I guess in which case the C/R on board would use the emergency door release to open the doors.
Wasn't the first time seen R68 on Far Rockaway. Some here mentioned seen R68 A Train that used in shooting movies
What does cross-honor ticket mean?
it means different systems will honor each others tickets
Why do they do it for?
[Why do they do it for?]
NJT Bus Operations and NJT Rail Operations (which are technically two separate entities) will often honor each others' tickets tofacilitate travel in emergency situations such as - gasp! - a blizzard. All bus service into PABT was suspended, so bus tickets were accepted on trains to get people at least to Hoboken, where (presumably) PATH service would be available. Similarly, if trains are out because of, say, a fire at Penn Station, then NJT buses would probably accept NJT rail tickets to comparable destinations.
I accidentally found an unlocked storm door on a nb (L) train this afternoon. It was an R-42. BMTman left me at Atlantic Av, and I continued on into Manhattan. When the train started leaving Union Square, I noticed that the handle that I had been holding on to (below the railfan window) was awfully far to the left. I released it and squeezed it again and sure enough it gave. Then I realized that the door was actually partially slid open, probably from my playing with it! I didn't even realize it! I immediatly pulled it shut. I then non-chalantly walked off the train at 6th Av, on my way up to J2 Pizza on Broadway.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
something like that happened to me,i was on a j train R42,as the train
was coming at canal st(i had the railfan window)as soon as the train hit the hard right curve the storm door slid open,and i closed it.
the people on that car were look at like as i wanted open the.(i didn,t even know the door was open)i ended up getting off at canal st.
hope that doesn,t happed to anyone ever.
til next time
It happened to me once on a #2 R-21 between 34th and 14th. I closed it immediately. At 14th the TO came out of his cab, and locked it. I remember it to this day.
I can top that. On the M train, when the R27-30's were still around, I found a side door that was open about 6 inches. I kind of pulled it a bit, and it opened more than half way. I quickly closed it, it was a strange sight having a door open while on an el. I'm hoping the current equipment wouldn't allow this to happen.
Interesting that the train did not loose indication.
That's what I was thinking even at the time, not even knowing much about trains then. But it was around 1985 or so, the trains were a mess, so it may have been broken, and no indication was given.
This was the reason back then that you had the decals "Do not lean on doors". Today its because people lean and bounce against them and damage the motor arms and knock the doors off the track if they're heavy enough.
Indication worked differently back then. Now you have the Door Obstruction Sensors tied in to indication which will cause the C/R and T/O to lose indication if you move the door more than a certain amount (I think its like 1/4"). I don't know how it worked precisely in the old days, but you could get the doors open further w/o indication. And sometimes you could lean on the doors and they'd pop open.
Indication worked differently back then. Now you have the Door Obstruction Sensors tied in to indication which will cause the C/R and T/O to lose indication if you move the door more than a certain amount (I think its like 1/4").
Thanks. And yes, it definitely moved more than 1/4". If I wanted to, I could have opened the door completely that day, while moving along an el! Maybe that's why the signs on the doors at that time didn't even say "Don't lean on the doors". Forget that. They actually said, "Please keep hands off the door."! as in, Don't even touch the door!
This was the reason back then that you had the decals "Do not lean on doors". Today its because people lean and bounce against them and damage the motor arms and knock the doors off the track if they're heavy enough.
Indication worked differently back then. Now you have the Door Obstruction Sensors tied in to indication which will cause the C/R and T/O to lose indication if you move the door more than a certain amount (I think its like 1/4"). I don't know how it worked precisely in the old days, but you could get the doors open further w/o indication. And sometimes you could lean on the doors and they'd pop open.
That happened to me once on an R-21 or R-22 as well. I gave the handle a tug-tug, as I still do to this day, only this time the door opened! My sister gave me a dirty look you wouldn't believe.
So you were in the first car, the door was unlocked and you "non-chalantly walked off the train at 6th Av"
Was there a reason you didn't tell the train operator? You seem to enjoy telling everyone everything that you see on the subway but you didn't say a word to the train operaor about this? And train operator was what a foot away from you? Can you explain why?
I once found an unlocked storm door on an R-38 A train at Howard Beach. I told the T/O and he stepped out and fumbled with his key, but he didn't bother testing it -- it was still unlocked. Should I have continued to bug him?
No...your "obligation" (and it's arguable that you even have an obligation) is only to tell the proper authority. If he doesn't do the right thing, then it's his fault, not yours.
Um, 6th Av was my stop. I had been out railfanning all day and I was hungry. Hungry for some good pizza. Sure if I stayed on longer, such as to the next stop, aka the end of the line, I would have told the T/O when he left the cab. But I'm not gonna risk missing my stop during spotty subway service in order to knock on the T/O's cab door.
---Brian
So... if a child were to open the storm door and fall to his/her death, you would not feel responsible.
My point exactly. It's amazing how one will point out everybody else's mistakes and when they make one it's no biggie.
I agree...
I admit it. I was selfish in that fact that since I discovered the unlocked door literally seconds before I was planning to get off the train, I decided to get off instead of trying to warn the T/O. If I had discovered it just one station earlier, I surely would have told the T/O. This is one of my darkest moments.
We all make mistakes, especially when we don't have time to think through what the right thing to do is. As long as you recognize that you made a mistake, it'll help you not to do it again.
The problem is the people who won't admit they did the wrong thing, and keep on doing it.
Reminds me of something that happened about a year ago on the LIRR. I boarded a train one evening at Penn Station and decided to grab the railfan window. As I was standing there, maybe a minute or so before the train left, a man said (not politely) "Excuse me!" and half-shoved his way past me. He grabbed the door handle - which fortuntely (or was it unfortunately?) was locked - and tried to open it. I said that this was the last car, the man looked through the door he'd tried to open and saw the tracks ahead, and loudly said "Oh [deleted]!"
It indeed was rather amusing.
That's happened to me a few times on the subway. Someone once went into a rage when I told him he was at the front of the train.
"Screw you buddy, I wanna be in front of this train when it starts moving!"
Good, go there. Society will be better off. :)
Doesn't surprise me it was on an R42. I noticed as a C/R that they tended to have carbodys that were slightly twisted (us gearheads call this 'frame flex' on cars, don't know what you'd call it on a train) causing the door not to close properly, and easy open if it is. So a locked door on an R42 will very likely open easily if pulled the right way, which is why I never use the door handle for stability on any car class, especially the R42.
I have never seen this on any other car class than the R42 however. Take a look for yourselves when you're out there. On an R42 you'll see the door come closer to the doorjamb near the top than the bottom or vice-versa.
You should have sought out a T/O or C/R so the door could have been locked. I found a storm door opened on a lead car once, but told the T/O about it, to avoid any potential problems.
last summer i was railfanning on the 'a'..the motorman asked 'me' to check if the storm door was locked...i guess he had a lazy moment
I've opened the front storm door on Redbirds on the 7 line many times.
18 inches so far, with snow continuing, and some heavier patches of snow lowering visibility, with the back end of the system.
Roads are snow covered, many have become difficult to get through, with mostly SUV's (now that Hummer comes in handy!).
I did see one bus in the distance on Glen Cove ave, however, I didnt see any buses running up close. If there was a Saturday schedule, the N27 and N21 buses did not show up to a half hour after their departure time.
Bus stops are buried in snow drifts and plow drifts.
LIRR is experiencing delays and track closures, and on major parkways there is only one lane open in each direction.
Where's your cameraman, Mr. Reporter John?
:)
and on major parkways there is only one lane open in each direction.
Ho Hum.... I-94 is open and clear in all lanes, with traffic speeds up to 70 mph....
We had less that 1/8th inch of snow this morning.
Don't you wish you were in NORTH DAKOTA!
;^) Elias
TAIN SERVICE EVERYWHERE SHOULD BE CUT!!! TRAINS WASTE ELECTRICITY AND DRAIN THE LIFE OUT OF TRAIN BUFFS
Plus, given ridership levels on a typical day such as today, it's obvious that no New Yorker has ever ridden a train.
:-)
My (2) train from 42 St to 96 St ran local. And the express tracks at 96 St were covered in snow. Yes, underground. In fact, I saw MANY UNDERGROUND stations that had a lot of snow on the platforms and tracks. This is do to the vents and stuff in the ceilings and walls. The funny thing is that at 96 St, people were still standing near the nb exp tracks, eventhough they were covered in snow. I took a photo, I'll get it online eventually.
---Brian
Didn't you see the 2 layed up between 42 and 72 on the uptown express track?
Come to think of it, I think I saw a bunch of (3)'s layed up there. Hee hee hee, thanks for the reminder.
---Brian
The following express tracks appeared to be in use as makeshift yards today:
West Side IRT (NB Chambers-96, also middle track 103-125)
East Side IRT (NB BB-125, I think)
Brooklyn IRT (both tracks Franklin-Utica)
Concourse
4th Avenue (both tracks all the way, including the DeKalb bypass)
The Broadway BMT didn't appear to have any express service, but I didn't see any trains parked on the express tracks.
I didn't make it to Queens or to the Pelham line. Nothing was blocking the middle track through 149th and 138th on the 4.
It seems to me that they do that on the underground express tracks, to avoid having to clean the snow off of the trains had they left them in normal outdoor yards.
Forget cleaning off the snow -- if the yard tracks are covered in a few inches of snow, the trains in the yard can't move. Imagine rush hour tomorrow morning on today's Saturday schedule.
SUBWAYS
(5) Dyre Avenue service is suspended between E. 180th Street and Dyre Avenue
Service on the Staten Island Railroad is suspended.
(A) service is suspended between Rockaway Boulevard and Far Rockaway.
(F) service is suspended between Jay Street and Church Avenue. A shuttle train is operating between Church Avenue and Avenue X.
(G) service is suspended between Bedford/Nostrand Ave. and Smith and 9th Street. A shuttle is running from Bedford/Nostrand to Hoyt/Schermerhorn.
(N) service is suspended between 86th Street and 59th Street in Brooklyn.
(W) service is suspended between 59th Street and Stillwell Avenue/Coney Island
(Q) service is suspended between Brighton Beach and Dekalb Avenue
_____________________________________________________________________
LIRR
BABYLON AND RONKONKAMA trains are running at 60 minute delays
PORT JEFFERSON trains are running-no transfer at woodside
MAIN LINE local tracks between jamaica and penn station are closed- no local stops on all eastbound trains (except PORT JEFFERSON)
FAR ROCKAWAY-LONG BEACH-WEST HEMPSTEAD-HEMPSTEAD-OYSTER BAY
TRAINS RUNNING 1-2 HOUR DELAYS
GREENPORT NO SERVICE
PATCHOGUE-SPEONK-MONTAUK
all trains at least 2 hour delays
HUNTINGTON-PORT JEFFERSON
30 MINUTE-2 HOUR DELAYS AT LEAST
Yes, and as a result of these service suspensions, I got to ride/photograph exactly ZERO of the lines I wanted to! Grrrrr! Instead, I got the (3) and (L). I'm happy with the photos I got, but I still would have liked to hit the (Q), (N), (F), and (5). It turns out I just missed the last nb (F) before they suspended it. I transfered from an (R) at 9th St to the 4th Av (F) station. Just as I came up to platfrom level, I see an R-32 (F) slowly pulling out nb. I was soooooo mad! I waited on the platform for another 25 minutes until they said they service was canceled. I came SO CLOSE to getting a photo of an R-32 (F) and/or NYC from Smith-9th Sts. Boo hissss.
---Brian
Woke up at 12ish. Saw total of 6 LIRR trains today. Four EB (to FAR ROCK), 2 WB Snow on the WB track was so high that it was not used. The 2 WB trains must have wrong-railed it to just north of Gibson. That means that there are two LIRR sets in the FR yard. The only movement on the WB track today was the snowplow, which hasn't returned yet (ironic if it gets stuck, eh?) All 6 trains arced every time a shoe made contact with the third rail. Scraping noise was also heard. Beautiful sight. Should've taken pictures (sigh). What can you do?
(Metaphorically speaking. The actual field is covered in snow.)
I started on the Bronx 4. Everything was running, but with some unusually long gaps. At Burnside there was an R-33 set stuck at the signal midway down the SB local track; eventually it keyed by and went on its merry way. Got lots of photos, including one or two of a deserted Cross Bronx Expressway.
Went down to Union Square. The L seemed to be running as usual, but I had to wait about a half hour before anything showed up at the SB Q/R/W platform (about halfway through, an R-40 W came through NB). Rode an R-32 R to 86th and an R-46 R (signed for a few minutes as an N / BROADWAY LCL / to CANAL ST) back up to 59th. There were no announcements, but according to the whiteboard sign in the booth, the N and W weren't running at all, though a few W's seemed to be coming from 95th, and around 4:00 one snow-covered R-40M N ran light up to 36th and relayed -- I'm not sure if it ran back down in service, but if it did, it was the first N in at least an hour. Over half of the R trains I saw were R-32 sets -- anybody know why?
Got off at Pacific to explore the IRT. By this point announcements declared that there was no service on the Q, N, W, or Franklin shuttle, and that the F was running in two segments. Got on a SB 3 which was badly delayed approaching Nostrand and Utica since the 4 was running local. Went to Sutter and eventually found my way onto a 2 to 42nd (running local in Manhattan). Got off to see if the 7 was running to Times Square (it was) and what the situation was like on the BMT platforms (very crowded), then grabbed a 1 home to 86th.
Hey Fred,
Another incentive to keep your train on the bridge.
http://www.subwaywebnews.com/photo_of_the_day.htm
Sorry, Fred only likes Triplexes.
IIRC the Std took out a whole row of girders and came away with nary a scratch, just one busted lite bulb over one of the side doors. :o)
wayne
Wow, that pictures a hell of a lot clearer than you can get with most modern day cameras.
It's not the camera, it's the film. Today's modern emulsions are designed for high light sensitivity at the expense of grain - people want to take pictures, without flash, in limited light with poor (read: disposable) optics. Even with decent optics, though, today's popular films won't give outstanding results because of their grain structure. Fine grained film is still available, although it's getting harder to find; Kodachrome 25, which was dropped a couple of years ago, was one of those (although Kodachrome 64 is almost as good). There are several black-and-white negative films available that still offer extremely fine grain; I'd have to look up which ones they are to avoid giving bad info since I haven't shot b&w in several years. And there are also some color negative films that have very fine grain, although you can't generally pick them off the shelf at your local camera store; they're in the pro film refrigerator. That shot was almost certainly made with a film no faster than ASA 16, probably 8 or slower, on a tripod with some fill flash at an exposure of at least one-half second or longer. It also was probably made on a camera using cut sheet film, 4" by 5" (possibly even 8x10), which has the further effect of minimizing the grain when reproduced. I wish I could justify taking 2 1/4 x 2 3/4" Kodachrome slides; the rendition would be awesome. But I can't afford a Hasselblad or even a Pentax 6x7 (cm) so I'll settle for my Canons and 35mm film.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That BMT Standard looks like it tried to ride on both the northbound and southbound tracks at the same time.
#3 West End Jeff
Gee, someone DID misalign the switches outside Whitehall station. Amazing the rats have not taken up residence in that rat-nnel yet.
And look how clean and bright the tunnel and ballast is!
Thanks for all the good cheer guys, but when I tried to download the info I got "This picture cannot be displayed". However, if you guys were trying to get me interested in seeing a Standard posing at a Sea Beach train, forget it. To me a B type on the Sea Beach is like Roseanne Barr being picked to portray Marilyn Monroe.
It works now again, and it's still the right photo of the day.
This discusses my ideas on converting most of the IRT to IND/BMT
service. All of the IRT portions discussed here were built to BMT/IND-width
tunnels. Turning these into IND/BMT lines is a matter of narrowing the
platforms slightly, and extending the platforms to at least 600 feet. The
point of doing all this, of course, is that a 10 car BMT or IND train can
carry about 30% more passengers than a 10 car IRT train. This would of
course be very very expensive (a sagan of money), but considerably cheaper
than new trunk lines.
Manhattan Changes.
(1) The Lex tracks above 42nd are sent to the West Side tracks below
42nd. A reverse switch is made for the West Side tracks above 42nd, to
the Lex tracks south of 42nd. The exact alignment for the switch is open
to debate, but (2) below represents my current thinking as the best solution.
(2) The switchover is made at 72nd St, via Central Park. To get the
West Side line under the CPW lines, Some undercutting north of 72nd St
might be necessary to get adequate space for what I propose. The Lex might
have to switch using two side streets, simply because it's a double decker
system and space is at a premium. In any event, the two lines meet under
Strawberry Fields (and probably, under the lake as well) in a gigantic
new transfer station. The current 72nd CPW gets express platforms added
on the CP side. A third-level-down mezzanine would have to be built. The
West Side would likely be east-west in orientation, while the Lex would
likely already be on a north-south orientation. The station would be complex.
(3) The West Side line continues east and becomes the Lex below 72nd.
(4) The Lex goes south, deep, to a lower level under the 7th Av BMT,
then ramping upwards to meet the 34th station once past 42nd St. A huge
new Times Square station is built somewhat north (and under)
the present BMT station, with easy transfers. The entire Times Square station,
actually, would need to be rethought, likely moving the BMT station somewhat
further north.
(5) The rump of the West Side IRT, from Times Square up to W 72nd would
have shuttle service. Possibly, one might send the Flushing line up there
to a new terminal.
Bronx Changes.
(1) Since all the trains involved are standard 60-foot IND/BMT 10-car
sets, I do not know the full ramifications this has for the Bronx. Certainly,
the Lex tunnels into the Bronx (and thus the Pelham Bay line) were done
to BMT standards. As well, I gather that at least the outer reaches of
the White Plains Road line is also BMT standard. However, I am certain
there would major problems once one gets to 149th St.
(2) I leave it to someone else to propose a reasonable solution. As
I recall, both the White Plains and Pelham lines each have three tracks,
and a partial solution might be found in this fact.
Brooklyn Changes.
(1) The Clark St. line is diverted south via Clinton St in B'lyn Hts
down to Atlantic Av, where it turns east, into the upper level Smith St
tracks of the Culver line (the F is already on the lower level by this
point). (For the Clinton St diversion, it would be the soul of wisdom to
make it four track, with a bell at Pierrepoint St, and another bell leading
to the Transit Museum station.) The IRT service from Borough Hall to the
New Lots terminal is reduced to two tracks, with all Nostrand Av service
diverted into the IND.
(2) A new, four-track, double-decker line is built from the point where
the Brooklyn-Queens crosstown line turns north, at Lafayette and Marcy
Avs, going south via Marcy and New York Avs to Empire Blvd and thence east
towards the Kings County complex. One level would be used by the IRT; the
other level would be BMT/IND. Two BMT/IND tracks turn west into the Lafayette
portion, while the other two IRT tracks continue north into the Marcy Av
portion. This would involve full grade separation, with substantial reconstruction
necessary (ie, a change in grade), probably along Marcy. A new station
is built to service the changes, one just south of Lafayette at Marcy,
with a substantially rehabbed-extended Bedford-Nostrand station. Some consideration
needs to be given for a future connection into the Fulton IND at Marcy/NY
Avs (this would probably entail a very elaborate six-track system in the
vicinity, with all sorts of horrid 53rd style switching); certainly, provision
for consolidating the current Nostrand Av and Kingston-Throop stations
into a single express transfer station should be made. At the very least,
some sort of transfer arrangement connecting to Nostrand or Kingston-Throop
would have to be constructed.
(3) The present Nostrand Av line is permanently diverted east for one
block at Empire Blvd and thence north onto NY Av. The President St. station
is abandoned, with Sterling St. perhaps also being lost, with a new station
perhaps on NY Av just north of Empire Blvd. The current Utica Av station
on Eastern Pkway is totally reconstructed as a multiple level express station,
with two additional levels underneath it, accomodating four north/south
tracks and associated platforms.
(4) All current Nostrand Av service goes north and then west into the
BQ crosstown, and thence to Manhattan via Hoyt-S and Clark St. All current
IRT service coming from east of Utica continues on to Fulton St and the
Joralemon tunnel, as present, without change.
(5) The remaining portion of the BQ X-town is converted to IRT service,
with a fully grade separated connection at Eastern Pkway into E Pkway IRT
tracks east of the current Utica Av station. This connection might not
receive much use, but it is nonetheless it is wise to make it while all
the new construction is underway. If the next point made here (6) pans
out, then lots of IRT trains would be coming from Queens, and perhaps additional
service is added eastwards out towards New Lots.
(6) Up in Queens, the BQ X-town receives a new terminal-transfer point,
with the Flushing line, at Hunters Point Av. An eye is given to the design
of this station, with the idea of having the Flushing have an alternate
ramp-up to Queens Blvd, where the third track on the Flushing line ends.
The idea is that additional rush hour service on the Flushing is possible,
with the extra trains being diverted into the BQ X-town. The connection
to Court Sq on Jackson Av is preserved, and probably, kept in use. This
idea needs considerable refinement, but trains coming from Main St-Flushing
and Court Square could both go south into Broklyn via the BQ X-town
(7) For northern portion of the BQ X-town, the IRT service continues
down to NY Av, turning east onto either Winthrop or Clarkson, with two
stations serving the ENORMOUS medical complex at Kings Co. Hospital. This
is a major destination point, and as anyone who has ever worked or visited
there knows that the hike from Nostrand is dreadful. The line continues
east to Utica Av, and thence south, at least to a tail-tracks terminal.
This finally gets the long-discussed Utica Av line under construction.
(8) Beyond those stations already discussed, I do not see any other
new station being built.
For 1/10 the money, you get 2/3 the benefit: just lengthen the IRT platforms without widening the tunnels or building new connections.
And you don't get any of the disadvantages of removing two very popular travel corridors or of reducing the three busiest local stations on the entire West Side IRT to shuttle service.
Plus not forget throwing out all the IRT sized equiptment and having to replace it with brand new BMT/IND sized equiptment
Good point. My other great idea is to convert the Eastern Division to IRT service. All those IRT cars being moved to the Canarsie line and to the Broadway/Jamaica Av el. The only downside is that service could not continue beyond Broad St., but since it so rarely does anyway, there's no great loss here.
And currently, there is a system-wide car shortage of BMT/IND cars.
The only downside is that service could not continue beyond Broad St., but since it so rarely does anyway, there's no great loss here.
Every ten minutes on weekdays is rare?
A very good shuttle service too. No passengers from up north to deal with. A 50th St station would likely be constructed under the BMT at the lower level on 7th Av. W72nd/Strawberry Fields would be a whopping big transfer point, with the CPW station elevated to express status.
For 50th St, everybody would just go into the IRT station underneath the BMT on 7th Av. 66th St is not the most active station; it'd mostly be used by culture lovers from Lincoln Center. The shuttle could be so constructed as to terminate under 72nd just short of CPW.
West Siders would STILL end up on the 7th Avenue line south of Times Square.
When you work it all out, very very few people are going to be inconvenienced. And in fact, most will be highly pleased with the improvement.
In time, I suspect most people would simply ignore the shuttle.
I amend the preceding post, noting that for persons coming from the West Side who wanted to continue down 7th Ave, yes, they would have to transfer. The Strawberry Fields superstation would be well designed, to make transfers fast, easy, and probably, a matter of just crossing the platform. The same applies to Lex people who want to continue down Lex.
It just occurred to me. The 2nd Av stubway could be constructed in such way that some Lex service switched over to it, while the rest of the 2Av would go west. This would partly mollify Lexers.
Again, the point: a 30% increase in capacity without constructing any new trunk lines, just some connections.
(It just occurred to me. The 2nd Av stubway could be constructed in such way that some Lex service switched over to it, while the rest of the 2Av would go west. This would partly mollify Lexers. )
One of the many permutions of suggestions I had to cut costs on the Second Avenue was to eliminate stations. It would hook into the Pelham and Jerome Avenue lines, have a couple of stations where the line was already built, then run express (through the deep tunnel) to 63rd Street. Basically, every line from the Bronx would be an express.
That would leave the entire Lex for Manhattan service. A tunnel could run up to Lennox Terminal, so the 6 could become the 3 going to the terminal, and the 5 would become the 3 on the west side.
Anyway, just building the Second Avenue, even just the portion from 63rd north, would solve most of the problems on the east side.
Thanks for the correction.
Please explain how you will accomodate cross-platform transfers. Remember, there are local tracks and express tracks, and a platform is a two-dimensional entity.
A very good shuttle service too. No passengers from up north to deal with.
Where do you think most of the passengers to those three stations come from? Hint: it's not the south.
For 50th St, everybody would just go into the IRT station underneath the BMT on 7th Av.
The IRT station at 50th Street has 8,052,456 annual fare registrations, making it the 32nd busiest station in the subway system (2000 statistics). The BMT station at 49th Street has 6,459,389 annual fare registration, making it number 46. Your new station had better have a lot of turnstiles.
66th St is not the most active station; it'd mostly be used by culture lovers from Lincoln Center.
No, it's not the most active station; it's only number 44 (6,674,250 fare registrations) -- many due to Lincoln Center ("culture lovers" don't deserve the same service as everyone else?) and many due to everything else in the area. The station will only get busier as Trump's development grows.
The shuttle could be so constructed as to terminate under 72nd just short of CPW.
Ah, how nice. Impose a walking transfer on anyone who simply wants to continue straight down Broadway.
Incidentally, what would you do with the brand new stationhouse at 72nd and Broadway? How would you compensate all the residents and expecially businesses along 72nd on either side of Broadway that will lose their excellent transit access? It's a long walk from West End to CPW. The station you want to close has 10,432,954 annual fare registrations (rank 22); the station you want to promote in its place has 2,046,939 fare registrations (rank 185).
West Siders would STILL end up on the 7th Avenue line south of Times Square.
Not according to what you've written.
When you work it all out, very very few people are going to be inconvenienced. And in fact, most will be highly pleased with the improvement.
Really? How aware are you of travel patterns? Do you live in one of the affected areas? (I don't think you do. My home station is 86th Street on the 1/9.) Have you seen statistics of any sort regarding the lines and stations you're discussing? (Doesn't look like it. I've seen the 2000 fare registrations and 1996 train/car/passenger counts across the 60th Street CBD boundary, and they reinforce the intuitions I've picked up as an observant rider.)
Perhaps you aren't aware that the West Side IRT isn't terribly busy, in relative terms, south of Times Square. It's closely sandwiched by two IND lines, while further north it runs in its own territory through a very densely populated neighborhood. The East Side IRT, OTOH, is busy up and down the entire line. Your plan would add capacity below Times Square, where it isn't needed, and send Upper East Siders to an unpopular destination. (Upper East Siders have ample access to the West Side already. They can transfer to the BMT at 59th or the IND at 51st for service down Broadway, 6th, and 8th, and if the 2nd Avenue line is ever built, they'll have direct 2nd Avenue-Broadway service.) Your plan would yank Upper West Siders away from Columbus Circle and Times Square, not just transfer points but busy destinations in their own rights.
Your idea is an interesting one, to be sure, but it doesn't take into account the needs of the actual people who actually ride the actual subway.
In time, I suspect most people would simply ignore the shuttle.
Yes, because by then they will have given up on the subway and moved out of the city.
Yes, because by then they will have given up on the subway and moved out of the city
Hehe, I sure started something here with my ramblings about the BMT/IND sized Dual Contract sections of the IRT. It simply just started as a statement of fact.
It sure turned into some wild ideas. Even I had some wild fantasies, not that I ever realistically thought they should be acted on.
No tunnels are being widened. Only those originally built to BMT standards are being dealt with.
12 car IRT trains would require just as much platform lengthening (even station lengthening) as would switching to BMT/IND cars.
The real expense is the whopping cost of the Strawberry Fields superstation where everything crisscrosses.
Well, I applaud the scope of the ideas you've presented. Stretching the envelope, that's the ticket. Gives us elbow room to get into the solutions with a clear head.
Well, I applaud the scope of the ideas you've presented. Stretching the envelope, that's the ticket. Gives us elbow room to get into the solutions with a clear head.
(Following up on my own original post)
It's a given my post was mostly wild ideas tossed out for conversational effect.
I have noted the various objections, especially those of David Greenberger. Whatever happens would not be done until the 2nd Av stubway is completed, and we will wait to see what effect it has.
The one non-wild idea is connecting the Nostrand IRT and the BQ X-town, going via Lafayette to Hoyt-S, then out the upper Smith St tracks at Atlantic, looping via Clinton into Clark. Squeezing in a BH station under Clinton, connecting to the others, makes things even better. Making the whole system IRT makes it very feasible. There would be shuttles from the West Side BH station out to Franklin and the Kings County complex. (See my original post under 'Brooklyn Changes'. I will likely post further on this idea.
As for turning the Eastern Division over to the IRT, this does make excellent sense. 10 car IRT trains would fit nicely into (most of) the present stations with just a bit of work, and the passenger capacity would be about the same for the present 8 car IND trains. IRT trains could certainly take the Crescent St curves better that the BMT does now. And some interesting jiggling might be done at Foley Square, sending the present local down to Broad, with the W'burgh trains scooching into BB local station. As David correctly notes, there is tremendous demand for downtown E side service, and sending the 6 further south would be a Godsend for many.
And David, I did live in the UWS, on A'dam at 73, on the south corner, right across from Verdi Sq Park. Yes, I know how horridly crowded the IRT is up there. All those huge new apt buildings have only made it worse. By the time I moved to Bay Ridge, the place was metastatically yuppified.
Actually it's fun thinking about the possibilities, even if they don;t have a chance of happening. I still wonder what the subway would look like today if they did leave the original IRT alone in it's original route, and built the 1910's extensions to join each other leaving an "x" route instead. Again, the CPW/8th Ave (or better a Columbus Ave Line) and 2nd Ave lines would have handled the up and down traffic, while the other lines would have handled the up-down-diagnal service.
Better? Maybe, maybe not, but it sure is an interesting subject.
For the 2Av stubway, I've fantasized having it X with the 8th Av express via 86th St. Getting to the east side from 8th Av or upper Manhattan is a little messy.
But this would work only if the UES portion of the 2Av were 4 track, which we are promised it most certainly will not be.
About an hour ago at about 7:00 in the middle of the snowstorm I saw an interesting site while waiting at the New Hyde Park Av crossing of the main line. A W/B train of M1-M3's first came through very slowly and all the lights in all the cars were off. The train was in service because I saw a lot of people at the windows. Looked a little odd but I figured something was wrong with the lights. While it was passing I could hear a diesel whistle on an E/B train. After the W/B train passed an unusual E/B train sped by with one of the older engines pulling one M1 (or M3) car in the middle with another older type engine in the rear. It was just one M1 car even though they are usually in married pairs and it was unusual seeing it being pulled by a diesel. As there are junked M1's out east I assume this was another one going to join it but I don't know for sure.
Were they the orange and gray SW1001's? As far as I know they are the only locomotives with M1 couplers on them.
Sorry, I don't know.
I believe an M-1 was converted to some sort of weather-fighting duty.
I also think diesel coaches 2907 and 2909 are sitting around somewhere in Holban or Richmond Hill possible with some conversion in mind.
So the slow M1 train was a work train.
Speaking of work, they should have the jet snowblower out working (and working, and working, and working)...
I don't envy the work crews today and tomorrow. What a nightmare they must have...
This train is one I pass daily. It's kept in the Hillsode Facility yard. SW1001/blue stripe M-1/SW1001. I believe it's used for weather-related purposes, possibly to clear the ice off the third rail. The M-1 (the "B" car of a pair) is not energized, so its shoes can perform this without difficulty. I will try to get engine/car numbers on my next ride.
To clarify your statement, it is one MP15AC engine on each end with an M1 in the middle. The M1 is modified from passenger service which sprays alcohol along the third rails to prevent them from freezing. These M1's are no longer in passenger service just like the ex-P72 diesel hauled coaches 2907, and 2909 that are sitting behind Boland's Landing Station at Morris Park Shops.
Does the alcohol then burn when a shoe comes sliding by?
What happens during arcing? Or is there not enough alcohol present to matter?
It melts the snow....then evaporates.
Now if they were spraying gasoline on them third rails to get rid of the snow, I'd stay slightly clear of the tracks. :-)
Thank you. I should have thought of that.
If I were to answer that, I would be confused, thanks Steve for the answer. Remember, gas and spark don't mix.
Why are they retaining P72's 2907 & 9 ?
Do they still use the ex-B&M P74B coaches for alcohol duty ?
Third rail de icer thingie car. The old one was an MP-54 converted over, I think that's scrapped :(
I've heard it a few times near where I work. They just circulate it around the system. I remember once seeing a married pair between two diesels on the PW line (!), but I think that was a regular set just being pulled for some reason. Must be great for the motors on those cars.
I wonder how the M-7s like this snowstorm? Though, they should be better than the M-1s - AC traction means no brushes to flashover and no commutators for dirt and ice and junk to chew up.
What a great break-in test, too.
All new trains should be introduced to testing either in the dead of a very bad winter, or in the midst of a scorching hot summer. If there are bugs, you'll see them very quickly.
I guess the DM-DE30's and the bi-levels on the LIRR did okay also, as I didn't hear about any problems. This was also their first "real" snowstorm. They weren't around yet with the last big snowstorm in 1996.
The MP54 was arch-roof 4791 converted to an alcohol car, operable when towed by a diesel at 10MPH. It was scrapped in the late 1980's after they had stopped using it. It was offered to historical societies, but was refused, because of an unrepairable gash in the side and asbestos oozing out.
They also have 2 ex-B&M P74B cars converted to alcohol cars operable at higher speeds. i don't know if they are used as such anymore.
I have seen scarpped M-1s that aren't in married pairs. They are work cars and look very dirty and windows are blacked out.
I have seen some M1's being push/pull on the PW line yesterday.....
Does anyone know why they kept the lights out the cars?....even the ones that are not using the Diesel locos have their lights out....any thoughts?
It's a work train, and they are focused on what's going on outside. You can see much better out of a window at night if the lights inside are turned off. Otherwise, you're fighting reflection and glare coming back at you from your own lights.
What you saw is most likely LIRR's third-rail de-icer car. It's an old M-1 retired from revenue service and inside are tanks and tanks of alcohol mixture. This particular M-1 work car has normal knuckle couplers nowadays.
There used to be an old MP54D control motor converted for this purpose, I believe it was numbered W-87. It was the one MP54 that got the MTA silver/bluw paint livery with yellow ends!!!
They have also converted another M-1 single car to a "gel train" which sprays some crap on the rails to make traction a little better certain times of the year.
As someone else mentioned, the only diesels that could hook up to M-1's that are still in revenue service are the two grey-and-orange SW1001's, 102 and 104 -- they have M-1 couplers on their cab ends.
These switchers are rush hour protection for M-1/3s that break down in the Penn tubes. They're usually stationed with a protect crew at HAROLD interlocking until the end of the rush, then run lite to Jamaica. 102/104 ARE the only diesels fitted with M-1 couplers, so I wonder what the "protect" engine for M-7s is?
As someone else mentioned, the only diesels that could hook up to M-1's that are still in revenue service are the two grey-and-orange SW1001's, 102 and 104 -- they have M-1 couplers on their cab ends.
Yup, good ole 102 and 104, the protect engines. They spend much of their lives near Harold protecting the Penn Station tunnels, and if a M1-3 needs to be rescued. For those of you unfamiliar with them here they are, but they are far from there familiar surroundings.......
About an hour ago at about 7:00 in the middle of the snowstorm I saw an interesting site while waiting at the New Hyde Park Av crossing of the main line. A W/B train of M1-M3's first came through very slowly and all the lights in all the cars were off. The train was in service because I saw a lot of people at the windows. Looked a little odd but I figured something was wrong with the lights. While it was passing I could hear a diesel whistle on an E/B train. After the W/B train passed an unusual E/B train sped by with one of the older engines pulling one M1 (or M3) car in the middle with another older type engine in the rear. It was just one M1 car even though they are usually in married pairs and it was unusual seeing it being pulled by a diesel. As there are junked M1's out east I assume this was another one going to join it but I don't know for sure.
(By the way, if you read my post yesterday how there was no way I was going to pick up my wife in New Hyde Park in a blizzard, please don't ask what I was doing in New Hyde Park!!!) :)
Hey, you must love your wife if you went out in the blizzard to rescue her! Nothing wrong with that!!
Hope you both made it back safely....
I know "TSS" stands for "train service supervisor", but exactly what are their duties? Are they in uniform or in plain clothes? How much do they make annually?
Sit on trains and observe their peers at work taking notes incase they're breaking rules.
I've been retired since 1991 but as a Motorman Instructor (that was before they had to make every title sexually correct) it was my in my job description to monitor train crews on performance and adherance to the rule book, help remove crippled trains and thus open the road for service, oversee General Orders and be the laison between the Desk Trainmaster and the Project Manager. It was also my responsibility to observe any dangerous or problematic items and report same to the proper departments for correction. At the time I retired I was earning approximately 50 grand but I'm sure it's much higher today. Hope this is of help.
Bklynsubwaybob
They ruined the title well before 1991. My badge (original one I think) said Train Operator Instructor, circa 1983, thanks to the Al and Tommy show. Then we convinced them to change it back to the IRT title of Motor Instructor. Which lasted until crazy Joe came along and changed it to Train Service Supervisor, so that it was clearly a supervisory title. We may have worked together, either as M/M or M/I's, though I preferred the IND to the BMT.
I have a view of the L train as it enters the upper level of the Wilson Ave station, and for the past hour trains have been passing by in the wrong direction, they seem empty and are the R40s from what i seen so far. Whats goin on???? Is there no service on one track or not service at all????
Could be snow trains running on the outdoor level to get the snow off the tracks.
Could be a "wrong rail" move. They might be storing some trains underground for the blizzard.
Looks like everything on a viaduct (F/G) or in an open cut (Dyre line, Brighton, Sea Beach) is out. So is the West End, perhaps because of problems in the at-grade portion at 38th Street.
The final verdict on whether my wife and kids should go to the Museum of Modern Art? I was trying to talk my wife out of it, while her friend was saying they were going and trying to talk her into it. I told her that there is a good chance the F would not be running on the way home, and she'd have to walk from the R. She finally decided not to go, but to be pissed at me for being a no-fun, spoilsport, wimp!
Good thing the F was suspended, or I'd have been meat for a week. As it was, she went to see Chicago at the local theater this afternoon, and we all wen't sledding in Prospect Park tonight after the snow stopped and had a good time. I do home our friends to get home, however.
Funny, I heard of no problems on the #7, which runs on a viaduct in Sunnyside.
(Funny, I heard of no problems on the #7, which runs on a viaduct in Sunnyside.)
My impression is that the Flushing Line is always the top priority in these cases, given the number of people it carries.
Is that a viaduct, or just an El with concrete finishing on the side? If the Flushing Line is to have a problem, I'd imagine it would be in the El-Subway transition area near Hunters Point.
Betweem 33 and 46 Streets, the Flushing is a viaduct. The rest of the elevated dtructure is a true El.
What is the difference between viaduct and El?
Look it up in your Funk & Wagnels
Viaducts have ballast laid below the tracks, such as the Gowanus viaduct on the F line. They are much quieter than Els, which are tracks on top of steel girders, and els have no ballast (little stones) below them.
Well, the Hudson-Bergen line, between Hoboken and Pavonia, has rails set in concrete, but no ballast; probably that would be closer to a viaduct than an el. It is the only part of the line not running today. I'm not sure how they cleared the rest of the line.
If that's the case, then wouldn't the Market-Frankford El in Philly be classified as a viaduct?
I dunno. The Market-Frankford felt to me rather like a true el, not a viaduct. Plus it had wooden planking on some of its slum stations a few years ago (I'm not sure what the current situation is now).
What is a slum station?
The following kinds of els and viaducts have been noticed in parts of the NY Metro Area:
-Classical Steel El: NYC's traditional elevateds, as well as (perhaps) that stretch of track in the vicinity of Newark-Penn Station. Rumbles when train runs on it.
- Concrete Lined Viaducts: Concrete on sides, ballast under tracks.
-Newark Monorail: An el as well, but trains only need one rail to ride on.
-Concrete Elevated: I think parts of the AirTrain at JFK may be of this type, and I wonder if the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line runs over a stretch of this near Hoboken station. Basically, concrete pillars hold up concrete pavilions, on which the rails run. May or may not involve ballast under tracks.
-Elevated Highway: Generally made of steel/concrete, but not considered a "true" el cuz it serves automobiles and buses, not trains.
- Stone-Lined Viaducts: Found on some stretches of the former Pennsylvania Railroad (the NE Corridor), may be a Concrete Lined Viaduct with stone lining the concrete. Ballast under tracks, of course; looks like a stone wall. New Brunswick, NJ, has a fine stretch of Stone Lined Viaduct running through its downtown area.
A New Type of El, NOT found in the NYC area:
- Maglev. A short line of this ilk was recently built between Shanghai, China, and Shanghai Airport. This is a Concrete El with magnetic strips. The train floats above and next to the strips, giving it little resistance and allowing it to go very fast. Is rumored to be very expensive to build, though.
What would you call what the Rockaway Branches use, the former LIRR elevated/viaduct?
I would call it a causeway.
Overy the bay yes, but what about the part from Mott Ave to Rockaway Park - A Concrete El?
Yup. or a viaduct. Both sound cool to me.
And then there's the other sort of viaduct entirely, the one that fits into the standard definition of a bridge over a valley, like the Manhattan Valley viaduct on the 1/9 and its neighbor on Riverside Drive. It doesn't matter what it's made of or whether it rumbles.
That, too. I was defining "viaduct" as "a raised bank of trackage inside a wall" because that was how a previous poster had defined it. Of course, a "viaduct" can also be a bridge.
Oops, I'll try again....
What would you call what the Rockaway Branches use, the former LIRR elevated/viaduct?
"What would you call what the Rockaway Branches use, the former LIRR elevated/viaduct?"
A trestle.
A very long bridge. :)
A concrete viaduct, similar to Queens Blvd on the 7.
Yes, the Hudson-Bergen Light rail runs over a viaduct north of the mall.
I think of an el as a railway that runs above and along a street, regardless of what it is constructed of. We don't have those in London because the streets aren't wide enough. We do, however, have lots of viaducts, usually built of brick, which carry railways above ground level but not above a street, and which are made up of a long series of arches. Incidentally in London the land under the arches is often rented out for industrial uses (some of them dubious!). I think of the thing that carries the 1/9 line across the Manhattan Valley as a bridge!
Aren't stone-lined viaducts basically earthen embankments with stone retaining walls?
Does this mean that if there's no retaining wall, even though the line may be 10-20 feet above the street level, it's technically not an elevated?
I was thinking, of course, about the Brighton Line south of Newkirk Avenue. You have to climb stairs to get to the platforms, and the line spans major cross streets via bridges (or, if you will, viaducts.)
"Why a duck?" ---Chico Marx
Brighton Line would be considered to be on an "embankment". Only the portion from the Neptune Ave trestle to just past West 8 St is considered an el.
A real shocker here: Portion on F and G line between Carroll Street portal and 4 Ave station is a viaduct.
The frequency of service on the Flushing line probably serves to help it keep the tracks relatively clear of snow. Lines with less frequent service, especially at night, and those with longer and/or wider concrete/open cut sections with less frequent service would be more suceptable to snow buildup or snow blowing over from unused tracks onto the ones in service and causing more icing.
It was rtunning realllllllllly slow around 3-4 pm and a light show from the thrid rail but the snow didn't cause any major problems.
There were 35 minute delays on the 7 in both directions due to areas that had too much snow on the 3rd rail causing loss of power.
Looks like everything on a viaduct (F/G) or in an open cut (Dyre line, Brighton, Sea Beach) is out.
The 1 was running over the Manhattan Valley viaduct -- but it's not a solid concrete viaduct like the one on the F/G.
Manhattan Valley is an EL, not a viaduct. ;-)
What other els do you know of that look like this?
It's a viaduct.
>> It's a viaduct. <<
All right, why a duck? Why-a-no chicken?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I have to agree with David. It is a viaduct. On a larger scale, think of the LIRR viaduct in Manhasset on the Port Washington Branch. That is also not concrete, but it's definitely a viaduct. 125th Street is just on a smaller scale than Manhasset. I've only heard of 125th Street referred to as the "125th Street Viaduct. I've never heard "the 125th Street El".
The Manhasset Viaduct
(image from Kevin Walsh's www.forgotten-ny.com site)
After exhausting myself digging out from nearly two feet of snow in South Jersey Monday morning, I took PATCO to Philly and got some SEPTA shots of the Market Street El and some Subway-Surface trolleys. They are the bottom ten shots on my Webshots "SEPTA 2"page.
Returning home, I took NJT to Lindenwold and PATCO back to Collingswood. See the bottom six shots on "Around New Jersey 2"for these. The Lindenwold shop shot is marginal because it was taken through a dirty, heavily-tinted PATCO Vickers car window.
Three shots taken from the Transit train at Race Street Engine Facility constitute "Around Philadelphia 7.
Hey, the snow is right up to the 3rd rail? Why isn't it shorting out?
Snow, being almost pure water that's frozen, is a very poor conductor of electricity. The third rail won't be shorted out but I'm sure the substation instrumentation is recording higher than normal current loss due to electrical leakage through the snow (it is not a perfect insulator either - it will conduct some electricity).
-Robert King
True, the presence of ions would raise the freezing temp and thus melt the snow so by snow existing we can infer a low ion concentration. Still, why are insulators specifically designed to thwart the effects of ice and rain creating circut pathways in complex and creative ways? It is more of a problem on high voltage systems?
"Still, why are insulators specifically designed to thwart the effects of ice and rain creating circut pathways in complex and creative ways? It is more of a problem on high voltage systems? "
Do you actually prefer having a short circuit?
Well you just said that in the case of third rail, even feet of snow only causes a small amount of leakage. Why then all the fancy, expensive insulator designs (althought new 3rd rail designs are not at all fancy). Are 3rd rail systems more forgiving than Hi-V systems?
heypaul would have enjoyed the spark showers on the trip from Lindenwold to Collingswood. With a headway of ca. 40 minutes there was plenty of time for ice to re-form on the third rail. PATCO was running 6-car trains with doors opening in only the third and fourth.
Even the fourth car that I was in threw showers of sparks while drawing a lot of current upon accelerating out of stations.
Great photos! I especially like the Septa Trolley photos.
---Brian
Thanks, Brian. I made it a point to determine whether the Subway-Surface trolleys were running and then photograph them, knowing that many SubTalkers are trolley fans.
Finally tapering off, total damage 21 inches.
But out in Staten Island, you guys got pummelled, 30 inches!
I wonder if they will be able to dig out the SI railway by tomorrow's rush. MNRR will be on a Sunday schedule. Yikes!
Ok, I decided to take a trip to ride the R via 6 Av yesterday and I met up with fellow Subtalker and Brighton ally Kool-D [first Subtalker or Bustalker I met in person, would like to meet more of you in the future] at Newkirk Av. I didn't post it earlier b/c I was caught up in the snow falling in the city :-). Anyway, let me get to the story.
We meet around 2:15pm & start out by taking the Q from Newkirk and we talk a whole lot of subway talk and people were like what the hell are they talkin about; we was laughing our asses off. So we're doing pretty good we go over the bridge and at Canal St the C/R announced that we were going local on Broadway; so we switched at Prince and made alll local stops to 57 St and at Times Sq Kool-D told the people that there was no Queens bound service north of 42 and passengers seem to appreciate a civilian helping them to travel before a TA employee[hmmmmm]. We met this lady on the train and she talked to us about being railfans and she said she does fantasy maps; so we were like that's cool talked then we parted ways at 57. Man that station was a ICEBOX! Saw the work trains and workers on the s/b tracks. Then the next Q came and left very quckly so we hop on that and we head back to 34 where we decided to ride the R via 6 Av; they should of just signed them as V's :-\!
So we talk more about Subtalk/Bustalk and the Brooklynites posts on the hand me down RTS's until our train came, F's seemed like they were on a reduced schedule. We ride the R46 and the LCD sign was blank and we reach 2 Av where we run to the other side so we don't have to wait for the same R we rode on. So we head back and we talk a bit about when the older trains with RF windows are gone and we go rather quickly and people were "HORRIFIED" to see a yellow bullet line on 6 Av so we go through the 53 tube, go quickly and we said Queens Plaza was enough b/c I wasn't going through the stress of riding the QB local, let alone the R. Gotta wait for a couple of minutes so we talk about how the system got slower until our E arrives on the express track and we share the RF window taking turns. Down the 53 tube we topped out at 47mph then we go the turn onto 8 Av and do speed on the 8 Av local track and I had the RF window to 14 St, where we get off to catch the L.
So as soon as we go on the L platform, the shuttle train arrives on the Canarsie bound track [the same R42]. Kool-D railfans the short section to Union Sq and we get off for the second shuttle train and we wait about 5 minutes until the second R42 shuttle arrives, I grab the RF window and we're off. The wrong-railing was pretty cool, we skip 3 Av and we build good speed and we whizz by 1 Av and we're going about 40mph until a red signal by the turn forced us to STOP completely; then the arms on the tracks lower and we go about 50mph down the N 7 tube and we gradually slow down arriving at Bedford. So the R143 to Canarsie was waiting and people SWARM the train to get a seat and I got a seat but Kool-D was a little too slow ;-). Anyway we leave and we go through the stops pretty quickly so it starts snowing at 5:15-5:30pm so I knew the storm was gonna be BIG! Anyway when we arrived at RP we saw converted R26's 7770-7771 then a R42 was waiting ready to head back to Bedford.
So the train was WARM, it had some real heat man. So we decide to get the RF window and then we're off and we go through the stops and the cool turn after Sutter Av then we go through Atlantic and we elect to take the J at B'way Junction. We have to wait about 10-12 minutes and while on the passageway between the J and L a subway preacher is saying her "sermon" then we hear the J arrive at Bway Junction. We make a good choice b/c the train was going through the local stops quickly and when we hit the Willy-B we both notice that the speed limit has risen slightly and then we curve into Essex St. Then we go through the Bowery and arrive at our stop at Canal St & we talk about the realignment that will happen in the future. Then 2 minutes later on the bridge platform the Q comes and it was standing room only. Then at Dekalb we part ways and this guy at Beverley asked me if he passed Pacific and I told him you been passed it & gotta take the MB back & I travel to Newkirk then I go home[man it WAS BRISK!]
Oh, here's the signs of the R
R FOREST HILLS
R 71 AV
R VIA 6 AV
R68 2854 (Q)
R68 2867 (Q)
R46 6129 (R)
R46 5834 (R)
R32 3917 (E)
R42 4698 Shuttle train 1
R42 4717 Shuttle train 2
R143 8148 (L)
R42 4861 (L)
R42 4757 (J)
R68 2780 (Q)
I was just in R143 #8148 last Thursday!
It was my pleasure to enjoy railfanning with you Flatbush41 on Sunday.
We were able to cover this much ground in 4 hours, and be back in time before the snow started picking up. While we were on our way to Manhattan in Car #2854, I was thinking: Gee there were two fine women standing by the door and how much I can appreciate the beauty of women too. Hmmmmm!!
You really would love the Branford CT trip on Sunday 3/30, I will be going there, and it's $30 for the BERA membership to the Shore Line Trolley Museum, plus rail fare and lunch money. Bring a camera and a friend.
I want to do ALL the G.O.'s on Sunday 3/9, it's last chance for 3 section L train and WPR line shuttle buses in the Bronx. Too bad the G2 signal stopped us in the N. 7th St tube, might as well with the speed were attaining, the T/O might have overshot Bedford Ave.
And next time BRING THE PET FOOD FOR FRED'S RATS! PLEASE!!!
I know, wasn't it amazing that we finished our excursion rather quickly and got out of the snow before it really picked up. Yea, those two girls were FINE :-). We really wouldn't have overshot Bedford since its an uphill and we slow down gradually and if we took the turn at the speed we went; about 40mph; we might of derailed. For those who like shuttle buses, you should ride the 2/5 shuttle bus [the express in particular], you won't be disappointed as long as you don't have a capped bus. This Saturday won't be good b/c its supposed to rain.
Who was taking pictures at 215th at 11:25 this morning?
I wish I could say it was me, but it wasn't.
The only place I took pictures on the 1 was 125th. Then I moved on to the 4: 170th, Burnside, Mt. Eden, and 167th.
Fox news reporting that Septa Regional Rail will be on a Saturday schedule. Should be a fun commute, fewer trains, more people!
What a railroad!
SEPTA was not on a schedule on Monday. At 3:10 PM at 30th Street, after the announcer had said that the Trenton and Paoli trains were in Suburban station and would be at 30th Street shortly, she announced that a Paoli, Trenton, Chestnut Hill, Chester/Marcus Hook, and airport train were all at Suburban Station on the same track, and they were trying to figure out how to re-size them for optimum utilization. The announced four-minute delay became an announced twenty-minute delay.
That's when I left and so didn't get any good photos at 30th Street.
I just heard on the television that part of the roof of the B&O Museum collapsed during the snow storm in Baltimore.
Does anybody have additional information?
Please disregard my previous post, just found an earlier post about this subject.
What is the current plan for the PCC cars stored at the Newark Subway Shops? Thanks
No one knows for certain. At least 6 of the cars are reserved
for preservation in the state of NJ. About 15 were supposed to
be sold to SF Muni but there are hangups concerning a sale vs
a lease.
To The List:
350 cars in service on the 5 through 2/14/03.
Add 7041-7045, 7106-7110, 7116-7120 and 7136-7140.
7161-7165 have interior signage for the 4. Just like the Yankees trickling into Tampa, it's a sign that Summer is coming.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Excellent. The more that come, the sooner all of this ends.
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
This is another interesting look at the Amtrak LD train issue.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Battles
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
This is another interesting look at the Amtrak LD train issue.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Slipping
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
PIPE DREAM! PIPE DREAM! PIPE DREAM!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Contract
Whatever HSR system people in the Sunshine state think of will not go ahead as long as Gov. Bush is in power. No matter how much it takes pressure off of I-4, I-75, and I-95, and no matter if any new technology makes it cheaper to upgrade the lines crossing the state. Besides, my guess is that CSX has got a lock down there.
Pipe Dream is correct. Judging from your slew of articles of this matter Mike, it's a bit surprising the entire nation is sort of reentering the railroad era that we departed at the turn of the 20th century.
Out of the four bidders, two are total pie in the sky pipe dreams. They won't happen.
The Bombardier one is based on the unproven Acela based 'Jet Train", itself based on a concept that has been a horrible failure in the past.
The other propsal is based on conventional electric technology.
Oddly, the TEL and the electric proposal are virtually identical in cost, sugessting the US DOT's obsession with turbines is a pointlss excersice as it doesn't deliver real world initial cost savings (which is understandable as the technologty itself is expensive and the cost of catenary isn't when you look at the total ROW costs). The long term prospects for a TEL based line are grim - there's zero reliability and cost data to suggest it'd be economic to operate it, and historicaly, gas turbine powerplants are money eaters, fuel issues aside.
Propulsion technology aside (No doubt the FRA and DOT will pressure Florida to select the TEL), there's little hope this system will be built because it really doesn't solve any problems. even with a useable HSR system, the local transit options in Florida are so horrid that it'll pose zero advantage over flying and be at a dissadvantage to driving. It could attract out of state tourists, but poor airport connections and poor local transit will be a problem here too.
It'd be nice to see a real HSR system go up in the US, but California is about the only place outside the northeast even approaching a practical market for it, as they have ever growing local and regional transit systems.
What's the point of an HSR system if I'm stuck paying through the nose for a taxi once I get to where I'm going?
Of course, if Tampa and Orlando and all had working LRT systems, it'd be a different issue.
Bush isn't the only one opposerd - there's already a good effort to get the HSR admendmant repealled.
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Acela
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Spuyten
Is there a more detailed (track?) map available. I tried the Amtrak web site but the maps are large scale outlines.
Thanks,
John
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Missouri
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Arizona
This project was proposed in 1997, The national park service & ADOT have been in favor of the project. However a large number of federal house and senate members have vetoed the funding required for this project.
[However a large number of federal house and senate members have vetoed the funding required for this project.]
Why? How much was New York being asked to pay for it?
I would be for the idea ONLY if they kept the one steam tourist train per day that they now run. In other words the new idea would be additional and not replacing it.
I took the historic Grand Canyon train from Williams several years ago. It was part of the fun.
What do they need an express for? If they want to curb car traffic - fine, but building an express line will not assure that.
Such a project should only be considered after the building of the Second Avenue Subway, along with every other conceivable pet project, involving trains in NYC.
Trust me, Diamondbacks fans - the hole will still be there.
Agreed. I rode the GCRY two years ago with my grandchildren and enjoyed the ride very much. But the idea of having a spur to a closer highway access point and running trains to that location as well isn't bad... it would get people out of their cars if the ride wasn't as long. Modifying the track layout (even double-tracking, let along straightening) would be sacrilege though, although some discrete changes at the Canyon station (for increased platform capacity) could be accomplished without affecting the ambience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where does the proposed route begin? I'm not familiar with the current steam train's route, so please fill me in here. Does it start in Flagstaff? Does it connect to any other rail route? Would it be easy to reach it from say, Phoenix or Las Vegas?
Mark
The existing route begins at Williams, Arizona, on the old Santa Fe main line (the line to the Grand Canyon is an ex-SF branch). It runs north to the South Rim. It's right on I-40 about 30 miles west of Flagstaff, four and a half hours east of Vegas (with Hoover Dam en route). Amtrak's Southwest Chief stops at Williams Junction, with a connecting Amtrak bus (ten minute ride) to Williams... but that's in the middle of the night.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The proposal looks like 2 totally separate apples and oranges items.
1. Make the roughly 70 mile excursion train from Williams go faster.
2. Install a spur that goes to Tusayan, about 8 miles south of the rim.
Item 1 sounds like something that should be purely a private enterprise thing. People will drive to Williams. They might as well drive to Tusayan unless thay want the scenic rail trip. No need for tax dollars or Park entrance fees to massively subsidize that scenic trip, though.
Item 2 could be a major traffic reduction method for the rim, which is massively overcrowded with cars. Park at Tusayan and take the train. Rail would be less polluting than buses from Tusayan, but also less flexible (the rim isn't just one point; there are numerous scenic points). DF says the Park Service is leaning toward buses, which makes sense (unfortunately) because of the many points of interest on the rim.
Mike, maybe you can answer this. When we were at the Grand Canyon last summer we went to the station to see the train leave. It is advertised as an old fashioned steam engine train except in winter when its diesel. Yet we noticed in had a steam engine in front with a diesel behind it as the second car. Both engines were running. What is the reason for the diesel?
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
This makes then OK in my book.
********************************************************************
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Oklahoma
What?! Destination Freedom Time so soon? You got it!!!!
Make sure to read the article under it as well. All I can say is that IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME! Sheesh, what a waste of money.
********************************************************************
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df02172003.shtml#Maryland
Now I don't have to go to europe for HSR!!!!
Now if they have railfan windows I will pay $300 to ride one. Since the R-32 stlye for railfan window is dead I just hope for a operatorless train where there is no cab except maybe for the conductor.
4.5 Billion to save 17 minutes off an existing rail trip?
This money would be much better spent expanding WMATA, making improvements to the NE corridor to let the Acela run faster, or extending the Acela to Atlanta.
Today I did a little railfanning. First there was a real air leak or 80 psi a little ahead of woodhaven (south) that put all the signals put up there tripcocks. Eventually they did train spoting and each train had to request permission to pass a "hooked" signal (tripcocks forced down). Did meet a nice TA guy at 63 dr (?, station east of woodhaven) and we chated a little as I waited for a R-32 to show up. I even had 2 friggin R-46 Es go by. errrrh. The guy said that by lowering the pressure they can lower all the signals from contenental to roosevelt, and the guy was warning the TOs to watch their ears because there was a deafening roar fomr the broken air line. Eventually they go some guys over and by the time I came to woodhaven the air was valved off and the signals were operating normally. In the end this wasted about standing 6 minutes at every signal.
I went to GCT with the hope of getting on a MU with railfan window during a heavy snowstorm but luck was against me. I came at 6:09 missing the 6:07pm train. MNRR wasn't running on a normal scedual. All the MUs were parked and not being used. Only locals were running every 2 hours. Even worse these were fuc*en Genesises with **** ****** ******** ****** ****** ******** **** **** ******* shorlines cars. No railfan window. Not even in the back. when the train left at 8:06 I relised that the reason they weren't running MUs were that the thrid rail were COMPLEATLY buried. You could only see the outlines of they in the snow. I also saw some switch warmers in action. Interestingly 80% of the switches in new rochelle aren't heated. Also you could barly make out the rail. The snow packed them all the way up to the top of the rail. Really bad.
Well thats all. Also the New Cannen shuttle/brach had electric MUs running on it.
Reuters wire story tonight from the Washington Post website. Sounds a little like the guy who set himself on fire with his flammabile liquid explosive on the IRT at Fulton Street a few years back, only this incident had more deadly consequences.
Here's a busfan type question...How long are this lines railcars? how wide?meaning are they IRT SIZE or LONGER...WIDER?
Both longer and wider. I believe the Orange Line cars are slightly longer than NYC's 60-foot B-division cars and the same width. But they have only three doors per side.
Orange Line cars are 65 feet long. Not sure of their width (not at home right now).
Jim D.
They are nine feet, three inches wide. A little wider than IRT cars. Same for the Blue Line cars, which are a little shorter than IRT cars.
All data on all MBTA equipment can be found on The NETransit Site. Just click on your line of choice, and see dimensions, rosters, etc.
oh.. thanks....and I haven't been to bean town since last summer,what the deal with the BIG DIG project? are they finished yet?
The Big Dig will never be finished!
JD
Listen to Bill O'Reilly sometime. He'll tell you all about what a waste the big dig has been thus far.
It will be finished before the 2nd Avenue Subway or a real rail link to LGA or JFK is started!
The big dig will "finish" in stages:
1. The Leverett Connector (I-93 N&S north of Boston to Storrow Drive) opened two years ago.
2. The I-90 extension (Mass Pike) to the Ted Williams Tunnel opened in late January.
3. The I-93 northbound tunnel lanes (only) underneath Boston is scheduled to open in mid- to late-March.
4. The I-93 southbound tunnel lanes underneath Boston is scheduled to open in early- to mid-2004.
5. The I-93 (Central Artery) elevated roadway will then be demolished, and surface features (parks, etc.) completed by 2006.
Unfortunately, while there was nothing done to prevent a North Station - South Station Rail Link, it is just a concept at this time.
I'm not an expert on Boston, but I think a link between the two stations would have been an great addition. Should I want to travel to Maine on Amtrak now, I'd have to ride to South station, then cross town to North Station to catch the Downeaster. Not that I'd mind a chance to do some railfanning on the T, but other travellers might not get so excited about this.
Should I also be dissappointed that no rail tunnels of any kind were included in the project? I don't know a whole lot about Boston's transit needs, but if the city has the legendary commuting troubles I hear about, a new subway tunnel could have found some use. Does anyone have any ideas about what kind of transit improvements could have been part of the Big Dig? I can think of a new subway to serve the giant wedge of southern Boston between the Orange and Red lines that has only the slightly glorified bus route known as the "Silver Line" for "rapid transit." I know this is a poor area with little of the political clout necessary to get new subway lines built, but speaking hypothetically it could have been a nice addition.
Mark
Nice addition,
no money.
So northbound traffic will (hopefully) be using the underground highway beginning in March? Wow that's getting close to finished! Good to hear it.
It stopped
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good, Now the clean up.
HAHAHAHAHA Should have done it 12 hours ago like I did.
No, no it hasn't. Snow still falling here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030217/161/3alej.html&e=4
---Brian
CPCTC, we have a target in the Straphanger Campainge Rider Diaries.
Meet
The F'N 6 Express
Straphanger
Member # 1143
posted 02-18-2003 12:41 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING!! WARNING!!! THIS THREAD WAS CREATED BE A SUBTALKER SEEKING TO BAIT US INTO TURMOIL, SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE A GOOD LAUGH AT OUR EXPENSE!!!!!!
DON'T POST ON THIS THREAD!!!!!
--------------------
SCREW ANGER MANAGEMENT!!!!
We have a result. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. LOL..OOH HOO HOO HOO HOO HA HAHAHAHAHAHA! OH MY GOD
Whew, OMG!
I already looked over there; it caused quite a stir!
HEEHEEHEE! Now that's some interesting shit LOL. Raid those boards Express M :-D.
Let say the pandora box has been open very wide
Checking cnn.com, a man who lit a milk carton filled with flammable liquid in Daegu South Korea subway caused a fire that killed at least 20 passengers.
I wonder if the asshole who did this is a North Korean agent.
Could be or he might be working for OBL.
35 Dead in S. Korea Arson Attack
IN THE SUBWAY THERE ...............
Relatives of a subway fire victim cry near the subway station in Daegu city, some 200 miles southeast of Seoul, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2003. A man ignited a blaze in a subway car with a milk carton of flammable liquid in South Koreas third-largest city on Tuesday, killing at least 35 people and injuring 135, police said. Firefighter officials said 87 people were missing. (
February 18, 2003 04:19 AM EST
DAEGU, South Korea - A man ignited a blaze in a subway car with a milk carton of flammable liquid in South Korea's third-largest city on Tuesday, killing at least 35 people and injuring 135, police said. Media reported that about 100 bodies were found inside burned cars.
MBC-TV said that one of its reporters went to the fire site with a gas mask and saw "dozens" of charred bodies in the cars. Yonhap news agency and YTN all-news television reported there were about 100 bodies at the site.
A suspect was under interrogation, but police still did not know what motivated the attack or whether there were passengers still trapped in the subway. YTN and Yonhap news agency said 12 maintenance workers appeared to be still trapped underground.
The death toll had risen steadily and officials said 35 people were killed and 135 injured. A temporary firefighter command post set up at the scene reported 87 missing.
Authorities said that the fire had been extinguished by 1 p.m., about three hours after it started. The acrid odor of burned plastic still wafted over the fire scene hours after the flames had been put out.
The injured were rushed to nearby hospitals, but details on their conditions were not known, said Kim Byong-hak, a police lieutenant in Daegu, 200 miles southeast of Seoul. YTN reported that some of the injured were in serious condition.
Kim Bok-sun, 45, said her missing daughter, 21-year-old Kang Yeon-ju, was on the burning train and called in panic.
"She only said that there was a fire and the train door wasn't opening, so I told her to just break open a window and get out," she said, her voice trembling with emotion. Kim called her daughter back a few minutes later, "but she never answered the phone."
Police were interrogating Kim Dae-han, 46, who witnesses said carried a milk carton box filled with flammable material into a subway car, said Kim, the police officer. Police still did not know what precisely was in the carton.
"When the man tried to use a cigarette lighter to light the box, some passengers tied to stop him. Apparently a scuffle erupted and the box exploded into flames," the officer said.
YTN aired footage of the chaotic scene inside a nearby hospital reportedly showing the suspect being attended to by nurses. The man sat frowning on a bed wearing a hospital smock, his face and hands smudged from soot from the fire.
Yu Heung-soo, a police sergeant in Daegu, said Kim had been burned in both legs and the right wrist.
YTN, without citing sources, also reported that the suspect worked as truck driver and had once threatened to burn down the hospital where he had received unsatisfactory treatment.
In the minutes after the fire began, thick black smoke billowed out of ventilator shafts of the subway. Downtown traffic came to a standstill as ambulances rushed to the scene. Orange suit-clad firefighters wearing oxygen tanks rushed into the subway.
Rescuers brought victims, their faces and clothes black with soot, up to the street in stretchers and slid them into ambulances. One witness detailed the terrifying scene inside the subway as the fire ignited.
"The man kept flickering a lighter and an old man told him to stop. The man dropped the lighter and the train caught fire," an unidentified male survivor told YTN. "Several young men seized him, but the fire spread and black smoke rose. Then everyone rushed out."
The subway was filled with toxic gas, impeding rescue operations, Yonhap said.
One man told YTN that his friend called on his cell phone and said he was trapped inside one of the cars. The unidentified man told YTN that he had called subway officials and they were unaware of the fire at the time.
Daegu, one of the 10 World Cup soccer venues last year, is the third largest city in South Korea with a population of 2.5 million. The city is also a venue for this year's World University Games on Aug. 21-31.
In 1995, a gas explosion in a subway construction site in the city killed 101 people and injured 143 others.
In South Korea's last major fire disaster, 55 people were killed in a beer hall in Incheon, near Seoul, in October 1999.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Better make that 120 dead.Just goes to show how people in the whole world are stupid and pathetic.My condolances to the dead and thier families.
some nut went off they tried to stop him .........too late
>>>>...some nut went off ...<<<<
LOOK in the MIRROR, boy.
Peace,
ANDEE
at least i wish this would not happen to anyone ...........at all.
........yes even you .........
because i am much better than you .......
i do not wish this 2 happen to anyone .......
......even to a VERY NEGATIVE SAVAGE, ............like you...
what happened in in south korea sez that all it take is
ONE PERSON ( not just some arab or muslim )
who can "" fly off the handle and go nutz""
it does make me wonder how far away from this U might be !!
& by the way "nut" >>>>>>>>>>>>look at yourself first !!
do something for this website!! Mr. David Pirmann has done
4 us all who use this subtalk / bustalk forum
like many of us have done .........>> excluding you !!!!!!!!
no 2 wayz bout' it you aint did nothin' for this website
{ http://talk.nycsubway.org } and show TOTAL DISRESPECT
the hard working owner of this site except attack some subtalkers
volunteers ( a long list of us )........!!!!!!!!!
who at least do go out and do the hard work !!
get up off your lazy ass & let your good work shine and do something
for { http://talk.nycsubway.org }
I appreciate this site very much .................good day folks!
Excellent post, salaam.
SUBWAYSURF, I expected better out of you.
.....thankz .....
I do want to forget about him & let it go .......
however when he accuses me of wanting to see innocent people die..
& like i the cause of this ..........what a mean person he is !!
i do wish he and maybe some others here would at least act like
mature adults when they post ( on topic ) on this board .....!!
again thankz to all of the good folks on this board no matter what
your walk of life may be ...@.. ( smile )
i would have done everything to stop him in my power if i was there
or anywhere else for that matter
there was some attempts made to do this but it was too late ...
My condolences go out to the victims of this tragedy as well. However, I saw the pictures of the charred subway cars and then flashed back to December 1996, when NYC subway car 1391 was firebombed (which looks eerily similar to what happened in this tragedy, where the perpetrator set off a Molotov cocktail). There was only interior damage to the car. (This car was quickly returned to service) Even these cars which were scrapped (links are at http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5722.jpg and http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5707.jpg) had only interior damage to them. I wonder if these cars were made of something other than stainless steel.
>>> I wonder if these cars were made of something other than stainless steel. <<<
I doubt that the car bodies were made of wood or other combustible material, but it is obvious that fire risk was not given a high priority in the construction, so the interior contained flammable materials and plastics that gave off toxic gases. This type of problem with "fireproof" high rise buildings was discovered in this country in the ‘70s, and is the reason fire codes were changed to require high rises to have sprinkler systems, and changes were made in the materials used in furniture.
Who was the maker of the subway cars, and how old were they?
Tom
Just heard on Channel 7 that 100 chared bodies were found on a subway car in South Korea, as a result of arson. They didn't elaborate.
Full Story Here
Peace,
ANDEE
Question: Was the smoke entirely the result of the accelerant, or was it the result of materials in the seats and walls of the cars that, when burning, released the fumes?
This is significant in that most of the deaths were due to asphyxiation and smoke inhalation, not the fire.
A milk carton full of accelerant will not create much smoke. Accelerants tend to burn fairly cleanly, producing mostly CO2 and water.
Flammable manufactured products such as seat cushions are notorious for the amount of smoke they produce, and the mix of particulates in the smoke, and have been a major factor in some airplane fires.
Thank you. I suspected that would be the reason.
Did transit agencies in the US change material specifications for seat cushions on buses and trains?
Passenger seats on NYC Transit don't have cushions, but are the seats themselves fire-resistant? And do we know what LIRR uses on their new trains (with executive-style seating)?
Holy moley! How on Earth can subway cars be that flamable? The fire jumped to a second train? How was that even possible? Ths Korean subway system 1) needs a better emergency plan (don't park burning trains next to trains with people in it) and 2) needs to stop buying subway cars made from foam rubber and paper mache'.
The news reports implied that the train the arsonist set fire to was at one side of an island platform, and the flames leapt across the platform to another train (going in the opposite direction) which happened to be at the other side of the island platform at the same time.
I take your point about flammable materials though.
A striking contrast with our London Central Line derailment which had zero deaths and zero serious injuries - but zero fire, of course.
High use of plastics in the interior (whoops - look at the R-142/3), wood floors (also in NYC subway cars, plus LIRR, Amtrak, etc), the occupants (who either are wearing or carrying flamables.
IMHO, the real nightmare scenario for NYC would be a subway fire, like it would be for any other system. Historically, fire has been a BIG killer in transporation accidents accross many modes, including rail. People are difficult to predict, how a fire spreads could be affected by many factors, and there's many variables that could easily set something up for disaster.
Subway fires have occured in numerous systems involving all sorts of vintages of equipment.
The only solution is -> 100% stainless steel and lots of exits.
That or an emergency fire supression system. The C/R could have a pannel that would flood any flaming car with CO2, quashing the flames and preventing the fire from spreading to other cars/trains.
Comming back to seriousness, can anyone tell me how the R62's that were firebombed back in 1996 fared?
"Comming back to seriousness, can anyone tell me how the R62's that were firebombed back in 1996 fared?"
Try these pictures; haven't done this for a while, so I hope it works.
Car 1391
Looks like it does; takes you to MS groups where I have five photos.
That car was repaired and returned to service. However, I notice that the outside of the car remained completely sound. How is that?
Stainless inside and out actually would be a good measure, but it's butt ugly for interiors and prone to scratchitti. Fire retardent paints could be a posiibility both inside and out.
Apollo 1 taught NASA to cut the number of nonmetals and synthetics down in the Apollo capsule. Thankfully, at low oxygen levels in regular air, most metals don't burn well (magnesium sure does, though, and titanium can, as can aluminum).
Elimanating the wooden floors and any flammible seat and floor materials, plus the window rubber stripping (don't overlook that), plus good flame detection to quickly ID a fire in the car and shut ventilation (which in itself can help prevent fanning the flames), plus good material selection, can make a car pretty fire resistant.
But it's a risk that's not always thought of in the design process because so many other issues might cause it to be overlooked.
BTW, on flame detection, I've seen some darn near amazing flame detectors, including on Japanese one (a vacuum tube, no less!) that could detect a lit match from like 20 yards away. I'm not kidding, it was scary how well this thing could detect a flame.
As for supression, one problem with removing the oxygen is that people need oxygen too, not to mention most suppressents are toxic or irritants or messy. I've heard of successful implementation of water misting systems, though, and recall some interesting research into superfine mists.
Straight up supression would be a difficult issue to implement on a subway car, though it's been done on locomotives (noteably the E-44) before.
Well, if you had the choice between killing a car of people or letting the fire get out of hand and killing two whole trainloads of people what would you choose?
>>> if you had the choice between killing a car of people or letting the fire get out of hand and killing two whole trainloads of people what would you choose? <<<
But when designing an automatic system, you never have that clear cut choice. It goes beyond the limits of engineering to decide in advance where the point is that killing one group of people will save a larger group.
Tom
"Thankfully, at low oxygen levels in regular air, most metals don't burn well (magnesium sure does, though, and titanium can, as can aluminum)."
Problems with aluminum fires are due mostly to the use of aluminum-magnesium alloys. Aluminum is too soft to use in such things as ship superstructures, so, for example, the US Navy used to specify magnesium alloys to stiffen them. When a cruiser with such a superstructure collided with an aircraft carrier one day, the ship literally melted down to the hull.
The Bradley Fighting Vehicle had this problem too. nice aluminum/magnesium alloys. Well, they decided to hit it with a missle one day in test. That didn't go over well.
Aircraft landing gear sometimes contain mag, especially military stuff, and it's a danger on carriers in the event of a landing mishap.
Sometimes you don't have a choice, though, and you have to use less than ideal materials.
I've heard, but not seen it, that titanium can actually get burning under the right conditions, and it's quite 'entertainning' when it happens. In a pure oxygen environment, many metals can be set on fire, too.
When I was at pratt and Whitney, one engeineer told me why they use so much titanium in jet engines - it's cheap. Cheap, compared to the superalloys used for the turbine blades, etc.
Titanium was popularly used as a 'getter' material in argon heat treat furnaces, to absorb oxygen. Titanium does WEIRD things when ure, and weird things with oxygen added. I have a few pieces of ti foil, it's really freaky stuff.
"I've heard, but not seen it, that titanium can actually get burning under the right conditions, and it's quite 'entertainning' when it happens. In a pure oxygen environment, many metals can be set on fire, too. "
That's true. Titanium has great strength for weight qualities, much stronger than steel, but it will burn.
What do you suppose they do with aircraft like the SR-71, which has a fairly high titanium percentagein the fuselage. The aircraft's skin heats up quite a bit at Mach 3.4 even at 100,000 feet.
The A-10 "Warthog" seats the pilot in a titanium bathtub. Why wouldn't that be expected to burn if hit with incediary shells (like the 30 mm coming from ZSU swivel-mounted cannons)?
I'm not sure, really. Magnesium is hard to get going, actually, if it's a big piece, but also near impossible to stop once it IS going. As for the SR-71, I find it interesting the skin is ti, as typically titanium is a poor metal for use in high temperature situations (contrary to popular belif, jet engine turbine blades are actually nickel-chromium based alloys, not titanium. The fan and compressor blades, though, often are ti).
I often wonder if the skin really is titanium (though I know it's been used on aircraft in quantity) on that plane, though I suspect it's an alloy of some sort anyway - I've heard that pure pure titanium is virtually impossible to work with.
The SR-71's an amazing plane anyway, but man, the engines on it are DINOSAURS, and were pretty dated by the time the thing officially first flew, too.
Titanium is also a fairly heavy metal....surprised it was used for the SR-71 for that reason alone...The strength of the metal to hold up to the intense pressures at high speed was what was needed in the final analysis I'd supposed...
"contrary to popular belif, jet engine turbine blades are actually nickel-chromium based alloys, not titanium. The fan and compressor blades, though, often are ti"
You're right. The temperatures and pressures at the fan inlet and wiothin the combustion chamber are different.
The turbine blades also draw their strength from being cast as a single crystal. No fissures, no cracks, no polishing or machining on the surface. If it isn't perfect, it gets tossed and a new one made.
That makes them expensive - but it also makes them super-reliable. Without engines like that, the 767 and 777 could never get ETOPS certificates.
Yeah, the single crystal processes are freaky to see. I don't recall if the PW4000 uses thermal barrier coatings, but it might. The trouble is ceramics don't like to exapand, and superalloys do. I'm guessing the NEXT big thing will be all ceramic blades, though that'd be REALLY tricky to do.
P&W has experimented with geared turbofans, and they've announced intent to develop one (PW8000).
Interestingly, the soon to be in service (It's got an FA A type cert already) PW6000 idles at....11,000 rpm on the high spool (!)
I've seen PW 4000s with the 110 inch fan up close. It's hard to imagine something that big going at 4,000 rpm...
Those fan blade are hollow, BTW
Hey - ETOPS. Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim :)
Ceramic blades - those would be cool, wouldn't they?
Can you describe more about the geared turbofan?
Turbofans have gearboxes (so you can provide the airplane's equivalent of head-end power to the cabin and for the avionics etc.) but that clearly is not what you're referring to.
I like magnesium. Aluminum foil, iron oxides and copper. Potassium perchlorate and cellulose nitrates. Components of many solid fuel rocket motors...propellants. Thiokol Corperation, absorbed by Morton (salt) manufactured a synthetic rubber grain introduced in solid fuel rocket motors to contract with expansion. I always wondered how safe I was on a commercial magnesium ladder. Nothing like a good launch followed by a white jet train. 'Electric sequence to begin...attention in the hole.' CI peter
I posted the initial report last night when the death toll was only at three. As I said, it sounds a lot like what that guy was trying to do when his flammable liquid bomb exploded on him on an IRT Lex express train at the Fulton Street station a few years ago, only in this case the consequences were far more tragic.
OMG, this is horrible!
Read AOL News, the attack was intentionally done, apparently, with him being on the train, and attempting to light a container filled with some kind of accelerant, and the passengers tried in vain to intervene bit the guy ignited the container filled with an, as of yet, unidentified accelerant, and the whole thing flash-ignited. AOL News has the details. People who work and ride the subway here should be a little more vigilant, especially considering the stae of the world. Right now they say the motive for the attack is not known.
Paul, the very reason why TA initiated 'Eyes and Ears.' What promulgated the loss of life was the inability to open the trainset doors. Trainset fire occured upon the platform...just could have occured between stations with worse results. Something to ponder about. We have been given specific instructions to look out for anything strange during inspections and report to supervision. The 'world of peace' may not come back to us for many years. CI Peter
I'm shocked by this entire episode. How could a metal train burn so much, so hot, so fast? Are the seats and floors really that flamable? They are saying that the fire was massive enough to ignite another train across the platform! I can't imagine a fire on a TA subway car doing more than burning out the inside of a single car.
1) Seat cusions, depending on the material, can generate a lot of heat and toxic smoke.
Every put a plastic bag in a campfire when you were a kid? Weren't you impressed by the amount of thick, black, hydrocarbon-based, smoke produced? With long hydrocarbon chains, incomplete combustion makes the problem worse. Now think of that cloud in a confined space.
2) If the subway cars had metal components stiffened with magnesium, that could have contributed to the fire too. Magnesium alloys offer stiffness and good structural support, but the stuff burns like crazy.
Pure magnesium burns, but do magnesium alloys (say magnesium/steel)?
Some alloys will... don't know which ones. I witnessed a fire in 1980 at a Chrysler-Plymouth-AMC dealer where I had worked a number of years previously. The main shop building had been constructed in the late '20s as an aircraft hanger for the local airstrip, back when that was the edge of town; the airport moved farther out in the late '30s and the building saw a variety of uses before being converted into a DeSoto/Chrysler/Plymouth/Imperial dealership about 1948 (adding AMC in 1974). As originally constructed, it had an 80' open span of wooden trusses on a wooden frame, supporting a Quonset-type roof, metal roofing and siding, with the beam at the bottom of the trusses at a height of between 14 and 15 feet. The building was about 250 feet front to back. Over the years the left two thirds of the end wall facing the street was replaced with roll-up glass panel doors and a cinder block wall was erected about 15 feet out from the right side, starting about 10 feet back from the front wall and running approximately 50 feet in length, with wooden walls at either end connecting it to the outside wall. This was built to a height of approximately 9 feet, with a flat wooden ceiling, and was used for the parts department. Tires were stored on top of this area. A cinder block room approximately 12' square was also constructed at the rear of the left side of the building for the storage of paint and other flammable liquids. An addition to the right housed a small (three car) showroom and the business office. The left front and central area of the shop was used for general repairs, while the rear served as the body shop. There were no other partitions in the space that I can recall.
On that day in the spring of 1980, I happened to be across the street at the Dairy Queen having lunch with a couple of old friends from the dealership. An employee, carrying an open five gallon can of lacquer thinner from the storage room, walked past another employee who was welding. A spark ignited the lacquer thinner; the employee dropped the can, which sent a river of fire coursing through the back portion of the shop. The dry timbers of the building, coupled with the magnesium in the metal roofing and siding, combined to create a huge inferno that levelled the building within 15 minutes. Those of us in the Dairy Queen took refuge behind it... good thing too, as the plate glass windows of the DQ were shattered by the heat, as were the windows of my '74 Fury that was parked in front (the vinyl top blistered too, although the paint came out OK). The two employees in the body shop area were burned, but not seriously; no one else was injured, as almost everyone was out for lunch at the time and the remaining employees were far enough from the source to escape quickly. But yes, the metal burned, fast and hot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes.
Don;t you guys read all the posts in a thread? This is the third time I'm posting this.
Aluminum-Magnesium alloys were commonly used in ship superstructures. Aluminum is too soft to be used by itself, and the Navy wanted ships to be light so four gas turbines could drive something the size of the Queen Mary at 30+ knots. A US cruiser built this way collided with an aircraft carrier and the resulting fire melted the superstructure down to the hull.
It may be the third time you posted it, but as far as I can see all 3 postings are after I asked the question.
I believe you are correct.
My apologies. I must pay more attention to the time stamps.
Ron
A couple of things to consider here:
First, we don't know exactly what the maniac used as an accelerant (or do we)?
Secondly, if the subway cars were of the modern type, chances are more than just the seats were made of plastic. Look at the R-142's: they have plastic wall-panels, seats, ceiling panels and light fixtures. I'd assume the Korean subway runs fairly modern equipment with much plastic on the interior.
The recent subway tragedy has no doubt caught Al Qaeda's attention by now. They might wind up trying to incinerate every subway train in sight for a few bucks per train. Obviously, we can't let this happen- how are we gonna stop those creeps with accelerants and Bic lighters????
Keep a lookout for suspicious characters in the subway carrying milk cartons and/or flicking their bics (illegal to do that anyhow in the subway).
Also, be wary of anyone in the subway who smells like gasoline!
I'm shocked by this entire episode. How could a metal train burn so much, so hot, so fast?
The British Navy said much the same thing when they lost a couple of warships that way during the Falklands war. Having visited a sister ship, it is difficult to imagine an interior more utilitarian, or less flammable looking. Not even in the same league as a NY subway car.
Yet burn they did. From memory it was eventually put down to a combination of aluminium structure and cable insulation. Both of which are, I suspect, quite common on subway cars.
"aluminium structure "
stiffened with magnesium, whgich is the real problem. Aluminium alone cannot be used in ship superstructures - it isn't stiff enough.
Must you always repost the same message over and over?
C'mon Tom, lay off him. This is an unusual post for him. A really long post without spelling or punctuation errors, and no exclamation marks!! Didn't even mention railfan window!
>>> This is an unusual post for him. A really long post without spelling or punctuation errors, and no exclamation marks!! <<<
And it was an interesting post – the first time it was cut and pasted it into Subtalk. The second time it was a waste of bandwidth, particularly if you were reading through it to see how the first post was updated.
Tom
omg come on guys break up the fight !!
go get some old muhammad ali videos like i do and see it done right
oh yea i still like the railfan window !!! .........lol
I don't know, bro'. Ali ain't everything. Ever see anything on Rocky Graziano? Not so stylish....but hard as stone. The only guy to ever knock Sugar Ray Robinson down. I'm serious; check out some history flics on him. To see this man punching is to see a jack hammer in action.
jack johnson was the greatest of all time remember him ??
still like the r-1 ......
RANDY KENNEDY IN LONDON
Peace,
ANDEE
RANDY KENNEDY IN LONDON
Peace,
ANDEE
A couple of comments from a Brit:
"Two lines - say like the A and the L - currently closed..."
While it is fair to compare the Central Line to the A, in terms of its length and complexity, it would be fairer to compare the Waterloo & City to the Times Square shuttle, not a full-length multi-station line line the L. And although it is seriously disappointing that the remedial work on the Central/W&C trains is taking so long, it is hard to quarrel with giving priority to safety.
"At the Camden Road tube station one evening last week, Priyesh Shah, a dentist..."
Uh - Camden Road isn't a tube station, it's on the national rail (Silverlink) North London Line.... Perhaps Kennedy meant Camden Town?
But then, when did journalists ever get all the details right about trains?
He's right about the graffiti/scratchiti, though, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as in NY in the 70s and 80s.
A couple of things he didn't say. No beautiful mosaics in London; but at least we have built two new trunk underground lines in the last 40 years, together with two entire light rail systems.......
Fytton.
Didn’t the Central Line platforms at Tottenham Court Road get mosaics in the last renovations (circa 1980, when I was still living in London)?
John
There are certainly nice mosaics on the ceiling above the escalators at Tottenham Court Road station. But they aren't *historic* ones like NY, of course, since London didn't have mosaics to begin with - which was my point.
You’re correct in that the below-ground architecture of the original tube was less than inspiring–plain walls and yellow square tiles. About the only stylish elements were the terracotta station entrances and the signage.
However, I like the panels and images that came to the Victoria line, and then migrated to the Central Line when the rehabilitation started.
John
"You’re correct in that the below-ground architecture of the original tube was less than inspiring – plain walls and yellow square tiles. About the only stylish elements were the terracotta station entrances and the signage."
The terracotta tiling on the outside of the stions can still be seen in places (including some now-closed stations).
There is original tiling on the platforms at some of the less important stations, and when it isn't covered up with advertising posters you can see it - the station names, finger-pointers to Way Out, etc. British James's Marylebone has "Great Central", the station's original name, visible. But there's nothing fancy like the NY mosaics
"However, I like the panels and images that came to the Victoria line, and then migrated to the Central Line when the rehabilitation started."
I like those too, the appropriate pictures for each station, like Queen Victoria at Victoria, the late lamented Euston Arch at Euston, etc. - the Jubilee Line has them too (e.g. Sherlock Holmes at Baker Street)
Fytton.
I like the large tablets like you have at some of the older stations (ex. "Great Central", "Camden Town", "Holloway Road (Arsenal)", "Oxford Circus", "Regents Park". And the 1939 stations (St Johns Wood, Highgate, etc.) make nice use of faux IND style decorations here & there.
wayne
"Q service is suspended between Brighten Beach and Decal Avenue. " from http://mta.info/weather/weathernyct.htm at 6 AM, Tuesday.
Do they not know the spellings of their own stations or are they using voice recognition software?
That's funny. Thanks.
--Brian
It's okay. For a while it said that there were delays on W service between Ditmas Avenue and Coney Island. Ditmas Avenue? I guess they rebuilt the Culver shuttle and were running W trains that way.
As of 6 AM, Q local service IS running to Brighton Beach from Manhattan, but about every 20-30 minutes. No Q diamonds are expected today.
Yup, it's not on the advisory anymore. To bad, I was too late to see BrighTEN Beach and DeCAL Ave.
OO, I'm getting a good laugh from the misspelling. As of now, Q service SHUT DOWN from Brighton Beach to Dekalb.
A-suspended to the Rockaways
F-suspended from Jay-Church
G-suspended from Hoyt-Smith/9
L-suspended from Myrtle-Bway Junction
Q-suspended from Brighton Beach-Dekalb
W-suspended from 36-Stillwell
Franklin shuttle suspended
I took a Q train, it was running (barely), did it get shut down again? The funny part yesterday, was some jerk was running down from Foster to the station only to find out the hard way that all wheels were shut and no trains were running.
Stalled train, not using express tracks. I gave up and went home.
Boy did i get lucky this morning.
As i walked to the LIRR station in merrick, i expected major delays, but the 7:48 train to brooklyn came at 7:55, though there was no penn service on the babylon branch this morning
got to flatbush about 8:45, saw a go by w/o stopping, less than a minute later a Q came by and i got to cortelyou road at 9:04
SO......
Q trains were running this morning though they said they werent.
Although there were packs of people waiting on the manhattan bound platforms as i went toward brighton beach
You never know, if every second counts they could be using the latter.
To add to my post, all trains that run outdoors is likely to have delays and possibly suspended service.
Maybe one of the Dell interns got a new job at the MTA.
A Dell intern that's been smokin that ganja ;-). Man are some of these MTA employees bad at what they do.
"Maybe one of the Dell interns got a new job at the MTA."
Expect the intern to hang out at Tompkins Square Park and get busted like the nerd from the Dell commercials.
Could be the same guy who wrote the following message on the sign hanging on the bank door on Montague St. a while back:
MOMIAL DAY
WE CLOSED
The pillar route strip maps at Union Square Broadway line station STILL have several stations formerly in lower Manhattan shown as part of Brooklyn. Does that mean we get the federal funding now?
Its probably another product of our wonderful school systems!
How about this heard in my office the other day, "yawl aint got the list to me by lunch, yawl can fetch your own supplies, I's gots to eat."
And she is a supervisor no less!
Well, between all the route changes and color changes on the lines running through the station since the Chyrstie St. connection opened (B, D, J, M, N, NX, Q, , QB, QJ, R, RR, RJ, W) I'll bet they've changed more decals on the route signs at that station than any other on the system, so maybe the "Decal Ave." name really is appropriate. :-)
You forgot the QT line back in the 60's. Also the NX NEVER stopped at Dekalb Ave during it's short lived run in 1967-68.
OK, swap the NX decal on my list for the QT one (and I forgot that some lines like the B kept their letters, but still managed to go through color changes since Chrystie opened, so that's even more DeKalb decals to deal with...)
I suspect bad voice recognition software, or more likely, a transcription of a phone call by someone utterly ignorant of the subway system.
I remember one conducter on the N, I think it was, who always called it DEE-kalp Ave.
duh-KALB (as in Bernard Kalb) seems the standard pronunciation.
Except on the R-143's ("de-KAHLB"), "DEE-kalb" is the usual pronounciation.
I usually say "DEE-kalb". For a minute there I thought I should be saying, "de-KAHLB" after the last post.
But then again, I still don't know if I should be saying "van-WHYK" or "van-WIHK".
But I think the real test to see if someone is a New Yorker or not is to asked them to say Houston Street. They will either reply: "YOU-stun", or "HOW-stun".
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20030218/ts_nm/korea_fire_dc
By Samuel Len and Kim Kyung-hoon
TAEGU, South Korea (Reuters) - More than 130 people were killed and 99 were missing in South Korea (news - web sites) on Tuesday after flames and smoke engulfed two crowded subway trains following an arson attack, officials said.
The mayor of the southeastern city of Taegu said a 56-year-old male with a history of mental illness was suspected of starting the blaze.
One witness, quoted by Yonhap news agency, said the man had ignited flammable liquid in a milk carton and tossed it into a carriage. The suspect is in custody.
Officials said a second train pulled into the station as the blaze took hold. The two trains, each with six carriages, had a total of up to 400 people on board.
Rescue official Lee Hyong-kyun said the fire ignited seat fabric and floor tiles.
"If you ignite a flammable liquid like gasoline inside a closed space, you'll get is something very close to an explosion," he said.
"There would have been hardly any time to escape."
As dense smoke billowed from subway air vents, soot-covered firefighters in orange suits and with breathing apparatus dragged bodies up blackened stairwells.
One man, whose wife was trapped by the inferno at the tail end of the morning rush hour, told South Korean television he had received a desperate call from her mobile phone.
"Help me," he quoted her as saying. "There's a fire on the subway. The door is locked."
Mayor Cho Hae-nyoung told reporters later rescuers had yet to reach all the bodies.
"So far all the bodies outside of the train have been recovered, but those inside the train, we haven't been able to collect them yet," Mayor Cho said.
PASSENGERS STRUGGLE WITH ATTACKER
An official at the Taegu Emergency Rescue Center said 134 were confirmed dead, 136 were injured and 99 people were missing.
More than 100 people were killed and another 100 injured in a gas explosion on Taegu's only subway line in 1995.
Yonhap quoted one witness as saying passengers had tried in vain to tackle the suspect. Another said many passengers were trapped behind closed doors.
"We are still trying to assess the situation as passengers are being transported to hospital. We don't know exactly how many passengers have been affected, but the fire appears to have been caused by arson," a fire department official said by telephone.
Rescue helicopters hovered above and traffic was halted through main streets as an acrid, sulphurous smell hung in the air.
South Korean President Kim Dae-jung (news - web sites) sent his condolences to the families of victims.
Most of those hurt were being treated for smoke inhalation.
"They were seriously injured," chief nurse Shin Kyung-in at the nearby Kwak hospital told Reuters, referring to the 19 people admitted to her emergency unit so far.
The single subway line runs through the central part of Taegu, a well-established center for the textile and dyeing industry as well fashion. A second subway line is being built.
While I can understand a car full of people dying due to the arson, I do not understand how the fire was allowed to spread to other cars and even another train. Some sort of plastic (lexan) windows and or body coating? It also appears that most of the dead were actually burned, not just smoke asyxphiated and from the last article the station seems to have caught fire as well.
This really makes the point for full stainless steel body shells, tempered glass windows and END DOORS THAT CAN OPEN.
Fabric seats? What are those?
that was oneof my links too i first broke this event on subtalk
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030218/ap_on_re_as/skorea_subway_fire_53
so some nut goes off .........!!
IF you spoke english, we MAY be able to understand,
Peace,
ANDEE
The G is running a single-track shuttle between Bedford-Nostrand and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Northbound or southbound track, or both (two trains)?
One train, one track-- northbound. Service was horrible. We waited over twenty minutes at Bedford/Nostrand for the shuttle. Meanwhile a second G arrived from Queens.
On the G from Court Square to Brooklyn, I noticed that the side signs said "TO BEDFORD/NOST" but did NOT say "CROSSTOWN LOCAL" or "G" (that space was blank). I asked the conductor about that and he didn't even know it showed like that; he had just entered the setting for the destination and that's how it displayed.
Service would have been better if the trains had gone through to Church Avenue, even if it meant fewer trains because of insufficient train sets. The wait for the shuttle and the confusion of one-track operation and the unexpected last stop at Bedford/Nostrand combine to make an awful trip.
(Service would have been better if the trains had gone through to Church Avenue, even if it meant fewer trains because of insufficient train sets.)
They were going through to Church this afternoon. At 4th Avenue, I was bypassed by an F battery running to make up a schedule. Then bypassed by a G deadheading to Chuch after stalling at Smith-9th to empty.
The R-46's can display any B Division station as a terminal, but not necessarily with a route letter or description.
My guess is that F's were moving slowly on the viaduct and there was no room for G's. The last place they can turn before merging with the F is at Bedford-Nostrand on the middle track.
What time was this? By the time I made it out (around noon), the G was running through to Carroll -- that's right, Carroll. I thought it was going to change ends and switch to the NB track south of Bergen, but it didn't -- it relayed to Church. I don't know why it didn't stop at Smith-9th on the way there (and I don't know if it stopped there on the way back).
I was stuck at Bedford/Nostrand from about 10:30 to 10:50. A co-worker who takes the F from Ft.Hamilton Pkwy to Jay St explained that the F was running through but not the G because the turn-around tracks had not be plowed, only the two local tracks.
I think that's nonsense, since the F train is running again in Brooklyn, why can't the G train run down to Church Av instead of running a shuttle that runs from Hoyt St to Bedford/Nostrand Av.
How about not enough trainsets readily available?
Perhaps. Or maybe the viaduct is only barely passable, and the F is moving so slowly that there's no room for the G as well.
But why Church and not Smith-9th, in any case?
"But why Church and not Smith-9th, in any case?"
My guess on that one is that they've plowed the local tracks at Smith-9th, but not the express tracks between there and 4th Ave that the G would need to relay.
You're only talking about 700' of express track out of the hole.
Maybe they're using the express for weather plan layups.
That 700' was totally snow covered yesterday. And now it could be icy. I took photos of it yesterday.
Crossing over two express track to relay a local train takes a bit of time. So extra train sets are need to fill the gap.
Go over there and find out yourself you damn lazy bum!Do us all a favor too:GET A LIFE!!!
V Train... please! Use your quiet voice.
As of about 12:30, the G was running to Church, but it was discharging at Carroll (not Smith-9th, and I haven't the foggiest idea why not, but it wasn't just one train). I think it was using the express track from 4th to Church and the local track back to Smith-9th, but it may have been running local both ways. Also around that time, a NB F was stuck between Smith-9th and Carroll (I don't know why, but I could see it from Smith-9th) and two F's were stacked up behind it by the time I bailed for the BMT.
Speaking of the BMT, all 4th Avenue service was local, but the West End and Sea Beach (local tracks only) were fully up and running. Back in Manhattan, I was on a Q that was sent up the local ("due to the storm" according to the C/R), but it was met by a W on the express track at 14th.
I was on my way to work this morning as usual, but when my trolley reached 40th street, no vehicles were going into the tunnel. Does anyone know why the tunnel was closed, or if it is open yet?
Mark
They had the usual trolley "collision" in the tunnel. Two trolleys bumped each other at 30th st, and a lot of people had minor bumps and bruises, and are currently calling their ambulance-chasing lawyers as we speak.
With a collision like this, there will probably be in excess of 500 injury claims.
I was watching Eyewitness News on WABC TV (for the New York City area) and the caption bar at the bottom of the screen kept reading "NYC SUBWAYS: SATURDAY SCHEDULE." The reports that the subway and buses were running (people in the Rockaways must be laughing at this idiotic report now, the A line and the Rockaway Park shuttle were both out early Monday morning, usually the Rockaways are the first one to go down in any heavy storm.) Is the media so blind as to what is going on or did somehow NYCT gave WABC TV the wrong information?
Mayor Doomberg didn't help either, he suggested New Yorkers to leave their cars home and take the subway to a dinner. Sure sure, I couldn't take the subway from my home (Brighton line was not running), and I don't want to walk a mile to get to the underground #2 line at Nostrand Ave either.
Whoever is responible at Channel 7 to do the screen crawl messages was probably not paying much attention. They were showing yesterday's message.
All NYCT subways and buses do operate on a Saturday schedule for Presidents Day and the 4th of July. It was a total disregard to viewers yesterday, telling them service is "normal" when open cut lines started to conk out from too much snow accumulations. The Brighton and Sea Beach lines already were shut down at 10 AM as I watched the noon newscast.
just remember this level of accuracy when you watch news from even further away.
The local television news stations get the facts wrong more times thenthey get it right.
I tell people time and time again to NEVER use the news media as a reliable source. HMore than half the time what they report is either inaccurate, or what they report was true, but the service had been restored already while they report service still being down. They are not reliable.
Thats why I only rely on Radio Scanner, although riding the R downtown towards deKalb yesturday, the conductor on my train, the W behind us, and just about every other train on the channel was clueless as to whether the Q was running. A lot of clueless Q customers not knowing where to turn. I was one of them. Had to walk from 4th ave and 36th street along 39th Street to 18th ave and Ocean Pkway home.
Mayor Doomberg didn't help either, he suggested New Yorkers to leave their cars home and take the subway to a dinner.
I thought his little speach yesterday was a bit funny too. First he's saying to everyone to stay home, unless you really have to leave, and then later he tells everyone to go out to dinner (and a movie) and use the subway (many lines of which were not running yesterday).
This was so convoluted and unprepared for. I was in the midst of the blizzard in New Jersey Monday and called my Car Desk to be reminded that this was an emergency and my presence IS required Tuesday morning. TWO snow plow clearings costing fiftey dollars apiece and five hours of continuous snow blowing got me out at 0415hrs and into the yard two hours later on time. Subways and rail were dead...I drove in and never stopped to present ID. Coming home this afternoon, I was greeted to giant piles of snow and ice in Manhattan.
Had a great day with the crew....no trainsets came in for inspection.
CI Peter
I got up at 530am, no Q service. Okay I'll come back in an hour.
7am and no Q service so I walk from E16 to McDonald Ave (No B82 passed me) and went looking for the "shuttle train". No shuttle train.
At this point I gave up, walked home (McDonald to E13) and called into work that I won't be in at 830 (report 8am).
Now I'll be written up for taking a vacation day without 2 week notice and calling out day after holiday.
I hope the union will fight this write up for me.
Geez ... my sympathies for what little THAT will buy you. :(
HOPEFULLY they'll be able to document no avilable service or substitutes, but I remember when I worked for the state what it was like when everything just stopped and they still expected you to use your own personal helicopter even if the wigs didn't show.
Same here, if there was a strike by the TA we could not use Sick/Vacation unless doctor note or pre-approved. We were told we MUST get to work or be DOCKED CASH no matter how much leave you had (even comp time).
Because of the current atmosphere here (pending layoffs), everything is being looked out and enforced to the letter.
I wish my sympathies were truly worth coinage ... BELIEVE me, I *know* how petty the phuckers can be (as long as it doesn't happen to THEM, then a new memo comes out) ... that's WHY I said, "enough of THIS nonsense" and quit the state for supposedly greener pastures. Of course, the SAME suspects are there to get you on the outside as well. :(
But as I delighted in pointing out to them (to *NO* benefit) "if MY task was so crucial, where was the Ski-Doo to come and FETCH me? And yes, I rubbed their noses in a few catastrophic failures over the years where if they'd just let me PHONE it in, the damage caused would have been FAR less substantial. In fact, a major transmitter failure that occurred during an "AWOL" event on MY part could have been cured in ten minutes if I wasn't lost in a ditch on an interstate when I could have VERY clearly told the poor soul in Master control how to throw a circuit breaker. But they wanted me in, cost the State five hours of no senators on TV. :)
That was the ONLY sweet spot though, and they STILL screwed me. After all, we're all just nags of grease in the gear cage, even if we're appointed as "official spare tires" ...
Ya but in a few short months I will be working for the State. They are transfering my whole division to a quasi-state agency. We have sent some of our units over there already.
We have been told we will still be city employees answering to State boses. Our unions have said to let them now if they make us work more then 35 hours (state is 37 1/2 a week).
We have been told that the state MIS unit is not letting anybody go and we will be the last to move over. So you put two and two to equal five and figure out who they will lay off?
Don't get me started... Can't wait for the law suits and greviences to fly.
Oh NO! Sounds like the tentacles of "OFT" (Governor's Office for Technology) which of course consists of lots of sticks and a few blankets flailed about real hard, a planet built on Win2000 (disregard those hackers in the root directory) ... heh. I turned down a gig with those guys, know WAY too many of them there as it is.
37.50 is a MAGIC number for the state, it's the number of the scared timecard. And WOE be to those who turn in 37.75, 35.00 being unacceptable and a sign of Bob on the La-Z-boy dispensing slack. Not going to happen. But yeah, OFT has more turnover than a Dunkin Donuts. Put up with the nonsense for two years, and you're the head of the agency. :)
When I worked at Pan Am they had a snow policy, i.e. they would calculate the average lateness & pay OT to those who arrived on time to the average lateness. You couldn't call in sick, but you could use up a vacation day.
OT motivated a lot to try to get to work.
We have the standard Trainsit Delay where they will dock you vacation then YOU call the TA and get proof of a delay that is more then 20 minutes. You then submit that to timekeeping and that goes downtown to the Div. of HR and they decided to credit you back vacation.
LIRR will fax you confirmation same day. TA takes 13-18 weeks even if you give them the Job Number/Call Sign.
Wow ... See what happens when we don't kibbitz? I had no IDEA that my motor instructor (heh) at Branford was "TA issue" ... dang, if I'd known that, I would have handed you a genuine Selkirk-signed G2 instead of just blowing my meatwhistle. That makes your situation all the MORE screwed up in my book, but then again - yeah, been there, done that, blew the supervisor, got bupkiss. THEN I got better. :)
My most EXTREME sympathies now that I know. TA always WAS a bunch of no-neck stiffs. :(
[Is the media so blind as to what is going on or did somehow NYCT gave WABC TV the wrong information?]
They have no incentive to care, unless they're reporting information directly relating to the commutes of the station's owners and senior executives. All else is irrelevant.
The news reports what the T.A. tells them. The reason that none of the suspensions were reported was that control center feels that the disruption will be cleared up in a short time and there is no need to inform the public.
Yeah,I totaly agree...I had to wait for an F train at ditmas for about an hour monday morning.
When I got of at ave. P i noticed that there was a sign hanging in the token booth that said "trains are running" but the running was crossed out and "walking" was written under it...I find that to be very true...
Better make that 120 dead.Just goes to show how people in the whole world are stupid and pathetic.My condolances to the dead and thier families.
some nut went off they tried to stop him .........too late
>>>>...some nut went off ...<<<<
LOOK in the MIRROR, boy.
Peace,
ANDEE
at least i wish this would not happen to anyone ...........at all.
........yes even you .........
because i am much better than you .......
i do not wish this 2 happen to anyone .......
......even to a VERY NEGATIVE SAVAGE, ............like you...
what happened in in south korea sez that all it take is
ONE PERSON ( not just some arab or muslim )
who can "" fly off the handle and go nutz""
it does make me wonder how far away from this U might be !!
& by the way "nut" >>>>>>>>>>>>look at yourself first !!
do something for this website!! Mr. David Pirmann has done
4 us all who use this subtalk / bustalk forum
like many of us have done .........>> excluding you !!!!!!!!
no 2 wayz bout' it you aint did nothin' for this website
{ http://talk.nycsubway.org } and show TOTAL DISRESPECT
the hard working owner of this site except attack some subtalkers
volunteers ( a long list of us )........!!!!!!!!!
who at least do go out and do the hard work !!
get up off your lazy ass & let your good work shine and do something
for { http://talk.nycsubway.org }
I appreciate this site very much .................good day folks!
Excellent post, salaam.
SUBWAYSURF, I expected better out of you.
.....thankz .....
I do want to forget about him & let it go .......
however when he accuses me of wanting to see innocent people die..
& like i the cause of this ..........what a mean person he is !!
i do wish he and maybe some others here would at least act like
mature adults when they post ( on topic ) on this board .....!!
again thankz to all of the good folks on this board no matter what
your walk of life may be ...@.. ( smile )
i would have done everything to stop him in my power if i was there
or anywhere else for that matter
there was some attempts made to do this but it was too late ...
My condolences go out to the victims of this tragedy as well. However, I saw the pictures of the charred subway cars and then flashed back to December 1996, when NYC subway car 1391 was firebombed (which looks eerily similar to what happened in this tragedy, where the perpetrator set off a Molotov cocktail). There was only interior damage to the car. (This car was quickly returned to service) Even these cars which were scrapped (links are at http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5722.jpg and http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5707.jpg) had only interior damage to them. I wonder if these cars were made of something other than stainless steel.
>>> I wonder if these cars were made of something other than stainless steel. <<<
I doubt that the car bodies were made of wood or other combustible material, but it is obvious that fire risk was not given a high priority in the construction, so the interior contained flammable materials and plastics that gave off toxic gases. This type of problem with "fireproof" high rise buildings was discovered in this country in the ‘70s, and is the reason fire codes were changed to require high rises to have sprinkler systems, and changes were made in the materials used in furniture.
Who was the maker of the subway cars, and how old were they?
Tom
Anyone know why service has been suspended on the Port Jeff line this tuesday?
"Anyone know why service has been suspended on the Port Jeff line this tuesday?"
Did you ever leave your Panic Room and look out the window yet?
Dude, diesels can go theough that much snow.
Well they should've plowed the tracks by then, the storm was over since 9pm last night!
Did you guys ever hear of drifting snow due to the wind? That did happen overnight. Yes, the DE/DM's can make it through the snow, but if it is too high, then it isn't.
Hopefully once the snow hardens from the day melting/night freezing drifting wont be a problem.
Today's Wall Street Journal had an article about the terrorism fears still running rampant among people in the financial services industry in Lower Manhattan. You've got Terrence McLoughlin, the head of a money-management firm, who has had to promise his wife that he won't ride the subway anymore. Then there's William Marsalise, a 30-year veteran on the NYSE trading floor, who tried to figure out ways to get to work from Long Island without using Penn Station, which "some residents say sticks out as a potential target." He considered traveling via Brooklyn, but decided that was too long a subway trip, and he says that on the subway "you feel like you're stuck in a spot that you can't get away from*."
Oy vey, will these transit fears EVER fade????
* = odd reasoning, as the subway trip from Penn to Wall Street is no shorter than from Flatbush.
"Oy vey, will these transit fears EVER fade???? "
Depends.
We should not live in fear, just go about your business in the age of Daffy (or Donald) Duck tape, Home Depot security, never FEAR-ing for yourself, and R143's breaking down, BIG TIME, on the outside stretches on the Canarsie line.
It sure is comforting to think that the world's financial markets are relying so heavily on such rational individuals ...
JD
Odd you post this the same day more than 100 people die in a S.Korea subway attack.
Even paranoids have real enemies.
>>> Odd you post this the same day more than 100 people die in a S.Korea subway attack. <<<
I guess it was just dumb luck that I decided not to railfan the Taegu subway today. I am still shaking from having such a close call. :-)
Tom
What's interesting about this set of fears is that the people in the area most likely to survive 9/11 were in the subway. PATH (in the form of a very alert and quick-thinking T/O) and NYC Transit operators saved thousands of lives on 9/11 and NYC Transit provided an important part of NY's evacuation capacity.
Exactly. The news from Korea shows what havoc a lone unhinged person can cause. My usually level-headed wife says she's going to avoid the London tube, in case anyone less unhinged but more malevolent decides to copycat the Korean guy.
Most likely, you're taaking about a snob who needed an excuse not to ride anyway.
It's OK with me - there are other riders who need his standing room.
If I didn't already hate the LIRR, I certainly would now. Figuring that there'd be no service from Medford, I went to Ronkonkoma this morning, arriving about 6:50. Lo and behold, a train was waiting on the south platform, and I got onboard expecting a timely arrival at Penn. We left a few minutes later, proceeded no more than 500 feet, and came to a stop. Soon after, the conductor announced that there were disabled trains ahead of us and we'd be delayed. No sooner did he finish that announcement than he had new, unwelcome information - there were THREE disabled trains between Ronkonkoma and Deer Park, and we'd have to return to the station.
The train reversed the short distance to the Ronkonkoma platform, the doors opened, and we were treated to an even less welcome announcement over both the train's PA and then the station's PA. All service was suspended on the line because of the disabled trains and it was not known when it would resume.
I then had to decide whether to wait at Ronkonkoma or try another line. Clearing three disabled trains didn't sound like the sort of thing that would be done quickly, so I decided to try the Montauk line. I went to Islip, as I knew how to get there by road; Sayville is closer, but I figured that its parking lot would be filled with Ronkonkoma refugees.
I arrived at Islip about 8:00 or so. At least the station has a heated waiting room with interesting historical maps posted on the wall. From other waiting passengers, I found out that no train had been through in over an hour. The PA was annoucing delays of "up to one hour," so I figured there'd be another train soon. Indeed, a train horn could be heard in the distance around 8:15, but nothing arrived. Time passed with no trains and no news except the same old "up to one hour" announcement. Finally, about 9:15, came a wonderful sound - the gates at the crossings on either side of the platform were closing. The train's a coming!
Ecstacy soon turned into agony. An 8-car train came around the curve to the east of the station, majestically blasting its horn as it went over the grade crossing ... and kept right on going without stopping. "Crushing disappointment" is too mild a term to describe my attitude, and no doubt the attitudes of the other 25 or so people on the platform. Back into the waiting room we plodded. A woman got on her cell phone and somehow got through to LIRR headquarters. She told the rest of us what she heard, and it was not pleasant. LIRR management didn't know when the next train would be coming, and had no idea why the last one didn't stop.
By this point it was after 9:45. I figured that even if by some miracle I got into work, I wouldn't arrive until noon at the earliest and no doubt would face another nightmare going home. I called into work and said I wouldn't be able to make it in, fortunately I have an understanding employer. So now I'm back home, just totally frustrated with LIRR incompetence.
I do feel for you how horrible it is to ride the Long Island Rotten Railroad. There should be a full IG investigation as to why the Montauk diesel train failed to stop at Islip, and inconvenience riders who pay outrageous monthly fares of $200 and up.
I have a similar horror story.
I live about 2 blocks from my LIRR line in Cedarhurst (Far Rock line). On a usual weekday, peak trains come to the Cedarhurst station at 638, 649, 716, 728, 756, 819, 830 and 903. I can hear the train horns and gate ringing from my house so ordinarily I can tell if trains are running timely or not.
This morning, I heard the 638 go by but that was it. Utter silence from then until 820, when I left for the station. The LIRR General Info phone # was constantly busy and the MTA web site had NO service advisories of any kind relating to the snow/service disruptions. Since I couldn't find out what the statuts was, I left for the station. When I got there, I joined about 20 people on the westbound platform and saw another 15 crowded into a small grocery store across the street from the station. One woman told me she had been waiting since 7:00 for any train, east or west, and nothing had passed by. After waiting about a half hour with no trains and no station announcements, I trekked over to the eastbound ticket office. The westbound office is closed for renovation; real bright, starting a renovation plan in the dead of winter on the busy side of the station, so that dozens of people are either soaked or forced to freeze their backsides off waiting for trains every day. But I digress.
The clerk at the ticket office told me that there were 1-2 hour delays going both ways and that he had no idea what time the next train would arrive. I went back outside when lo and behold, an eastbound train - an M-7 consist no less! - entered the station. Figuring I'd ride the three stops east to Far Rock and then take the train back westbound, I boarded the train and settled in. (Note: I would have taken the "A" from Far Rock but I heard on the news this morning that the A was not running beyond Rockaway Boulevard. So that option was eliminated.)
BTW, The M-7's are really nice. Its much more user-friendly and smoother than the R-142s. Kudos to Bombardier on a very good job.
We got to Far Rock without incident. After a 15 minute layover, the train started westbound again. We were traveling really slowly (no more than 10 MPH). When we got to Lawrence, one station east from where I started at Cedarhurst, the lights and heat suddenly went out in my car. After a few unsuccessful restarts, the engineer left the train and physically walked along the third rail side of the consist, looking for blockages. After about 20 minutes, we were under way. We traveled at low speed to Cedarhurst, where the power failure occurred again. This time, the train crew couldn't fix the problem and an MTA repair crew was called to the scene. One of the conductors told us that the train was probably disabled and that he did not know when or if we would start moving again. He also said that since it was still snowing (at the time), there could easily be additional problems on the line even if we made it out of Cedarhurst. I figured that since there was no guarantee I would make it to Manhattan and since I was already near my home, I might as well call it a day.
So my commute ended up being a trip to Far Rock and back on an M-7. Not terrible. I don't really blame the MTA for the poor service today. Blizzards and at-grade railroad service don't mix well.
You should be lucky. From what I saw out my rear window (b/n Hewlett and Gibson), there were 2, yes, 2 WB LIRR trains. All using the wrong rail. I can imagine waiting on the WB platform, and the train arrives on the EB!!!!! Did notice the hardware. An SW1001 made its way down the WB track round 8 or 9 PM. I have yet to see the snow plow return (probabally returned during the night, I saw one on the EB BAB. track. Thanks, channel 4!). Face it. We live on the worst line on the LIRR. Why do you think the color is sh!t brown?
The train's a coming!
Ecstacy soon turned into agony. An 8-car train came around the curve to the east of the station, majestically blasting its horn as it went over the grade crossing ... and kept right on going without stopping. "Crushing disappointment" is too mild a term to describe my attitude, and no doubt the attitudes of the other 25 or so people on the platform. Back into the waiting room we plodded. A woman got on her cell phone and somehow got through to LIRR headquarters. She told the rest of us what she heard, and it was not pleasant. LIRR management didn't know when the next train would be coming, and had no idea why the last one didn't stop.
The scene at Islip sounds so ridiculous that it almost sounds like Candid Camera skit. There is no reason that that train should have skipped Islip. You would think that since the it's diesel service on the Montauk Branch that you would have fairly little trouble there, with some minor delay granted. I can understand problems on the electric Ronkonkoma Branch, but what you went through on the Montauk branch is astonishing.
And their answer for you was absolutely insane - "NO IDEA why the last train didn't stop, and no idea when the next train will come through"?????? I know some trains through there only stop at Sayville and then Bay Shore, but NOTHING should be running express on a day like today, especially if no train came through in a while, and then have no idea when the next will arrive. It's total insanity.
I went to my usual station, Roslyn, where the Oyster Bay line was
running with no problems at all.
The train made it's way slowly to Jamaica, making all the local stops,
and then got on the next MU to Penn Sta, which made it there with no
real problems.
All in all, a 1hr delay, and the MU was packed, but we got in.
It was surprising, though, given the conditions:
1) It didn't look like they cleared any snow at all, anywhere on the
line; the snow drifts were above the third rail in many areas, and the
MU set I was in had no power for about half the trip, going on and off
every 20 seconds or so.
The 4 track main from Queens to Jamaica seemed to be running on only 2
tracks, from Jamaica to Sunnyside area, they looked like they had only
been running on the three northern tracks. I did see some hi-rail
vehicle doing some kind of snow removal on the southern track, though, but it didn't seem to be making much of a dent.
So, it seems like they did the right thing on my branch, making my train make all local stops. I suspect that in Peter's situation, that there was a good reason for that train skipping the station: (1) it could have just been completely packed, in which case stopping would really serve no useful purpose. (2) It could have been previously delayed by hours because of other issues, and having it stop at all local stations would have just _really_ pissed off the people on the train. It could have been a combination of both of those things.
I just am amazed, though, at what little effort was put into actually clearing the tracks, anywhere. With snow all around, and up to a foot above the third rail everywhere, it's pretty risky to be running trains like this.
Yeah, I am quite suprised they couldnt clean it up by this morning. They probably have less snow clearing equipment out there, due to budget problems. Definately not a good sign.
Well the main roads are clear, and as a result, I didnt experience any delays with the LI Buses (they were actually more ontime than on a normal day).
["Well the main roads are clear, and as a result, I didnt experience any delays with the LI Buses (they were actually more ontime than on a normal day)."]
Today they were giving door to door service. Well, at least in Hempstead.
The LIRR page on the MTA web site says the 5:15 from Montauk was 4 hours late. Probably it was full to the brim already by the time it got to you.
The LIRR page on the MTA web site says the 5:15 from Montauk was 4 hours late. Probably it was full to the brim already by the time it got to you.
I don't think so. There were few or no people standing in the vestibules as far as I could tell, and the large door windows on the diesel coaches make it fairly easy to see those areas.
Probably just full of SCAs just trying to get back at you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
(There were THREE disabled trains between Ronkonkoma and Deer
Park, and we'd have to return to the station.)
Sounds like the LIRR learned the hard lesson that MetroNorth learned in 1996.
As heard in interviews on Newsradio88 this morning, MetroNorth ran diesels only today -- 20 percent of its normal service -- to keep the electrics from getting nailed by wind blown snow. They are waiting for a little melting and packing to stabilize the drifts. When interview, the LIRR guy said normal service, and, in response to a question, didn't say he was worried about trains getting stuck.
They should have cleaned it up by the rush hour, as the snow more or less stopped at 9pm last night.
With the MTA, it will probably be until Thursday before all service is near normal.
"So now I'm back home, just totally frustrated with LIRR incompetence."
Would you like to improve their incompetence by applying for a job there?
:0)
Having ridden the LIRR for a couple of years, I can sympathize with all of you. Especially since I too used to get on from Ronkonkoma.
I remember in the old diesel days, not having heat all the way in to
Jamaica. I got smart, and moved back into Queens, so that stopped that torture! (E,F,G,R,7,Q32 just blocks away)
Anyways, I now have the privledge of taking Septa, today was typical
drove to Norritown to get the R6, & hoping that the 100 trolley would be running. Nope, no 100, and all regional rail on a Saturday schedule. From Norristown that is 1 train every hour!
What pulls in at 6:30? A two (2) car train making all local stops into
Philadelphia! First of all, the train should have been at 6:50, but hey the earlier the better.
We are packed by the time we get to Conshohocken, and still continue
to make stops all the way in after that!
My question is, since the snow started here at around 9 am Sunday morning and having all day Monday to clear tracks and re-assign trains, why wasn't that done in time for the rush?
PM ride home wasn't any better, and oh, still no 100 trolley!
The LIRR is bad, but it could be Septa, be thankful!
Having ridden the LIRR for a couple of years, I can sympathize with all of you. Especially since I too used to get on from Ronkonkoma.
I remember in the old diesel days, not having heat all the way in to
Jamaica. I got smart, and moved back into Queens, so that stopped that torture! (E,F,G,R,7,Q32 just blocks away)
Anyways, I now have the privledge of taking Septa, today was typical
drove to Norristown to get the R6, & hoping that the 100 trolley would be running. Nope, no 100, and all regional rail on a Saturday schedule. From Norristown that is 1 train every hour!
What pulls in at 6:30? A two (2) car train making all local stops into
Philadelphia! First of all, the train should have been at 6:50, but hey the earlier the better.
We are packed by the time we get to Conshohocken, and still continue
to make stops all the way in after that!
My question is, since the snow started here at around 9 am Sunday morning and having all day Monday to clear tracks and re-assign trains, why wasn't that done in time for the rush?
PM ride home wasn't any better, and oh, still no 100 trolley!
The LIRR is bad, but it could be Septa, be thankful!
I arrived for the 8:07 at Broadway, but they were shoveling snow onto the tracks, creating huge mounds.
I thought I'd be a smart guy and take the #13 bus to Main Street and catch a 7 train, but the MTA outwitted me and cancelled service between Main St and Shea Stadium, forcing thousands into shuttle buses.
i walked to Shea and got to work at 10:30.
www.forgotten-ny.com
See anyone at third base while you were at Shea? Hope it wasn't Wigginton.
The language is a bit rough but I got a real laugh out of this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A boy and his train......
A mother was working in the kitchen, listening to her five-year-old son playing with his new electric train in the living room. She heard the train stop & her son saying, "All of you bastards who want off, get the hell off now, 'cause this is the last stop! And all of you bastards who are getting on, get your ass in the train, cause we're going down the tracks."
The horrified mother went in & told her son, "We don't use that kind of language in this house. Now I want you to go to your room & stay there for TWO HOURS. When you come out, you may play with your train, but I want you to use nice language.
Two hours later, the son came out of the bedroom, and resumed playing with his train. Soon the train stopped & the mother heard her son say, "All passengers who are disembarking the train, please remember to take all of your belongings with you. We thank you for traveling with us today & hope your trip was a pleasant one." She hears the little boy continue, "For those of you just boarding, we ask you to stow all of your hand luggage under your seat. Remember, there is no smoking on the train...We hope you will have a pleasant and relaxing journey with us today."
As the mother began to smile, the child added, "For those of you who are pissed off about the TWO HOUR delay, please see the bitch in the kitchen."
HAHAHA! LMAO!
Thanks for the laugh!
:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did anyone on here have the unfortunate honor of working on the "L" yesterday? (anyone here other than Mr. Robert NE T/O....crybaby!! :-) j/k). You talk about a day where the "L" truly went to hell, the line was hit hard by the snow and ice, at one point in the afternoon there was a large chunk of ice adhering to the third rail at Wilson Avenue, and had to have a sweeper constantly rode over it in an attempt to dislodge it.....SERVICE SUSPENDED B'WAY JCT-MYRTLE/WYCKOFF....PEOPLE HIGHLY PISSED!! I went from being what would have been 30+ minutes early to 25 minutes late because I was stranded for 40 minutes at Myrtle/Wyckoff.
After finally making it to Canarsie (finally!!), service was still heavily delayed, but the service was restored again. Then later on, trains began getting disabled at either Wilson Avenue (ice yet again) then began losing power and getting stranded on the hill north of E.105TH (half way between E.105th and New Lots) due to big time ice and snow build up on the third rail and track. My train, when almost and hour later I finally made a trip, became yet another victim of "The Hill" (n/o E.105), when the train (and EVERY LAST OTHER TRAIN THAT GOT STRANDED AT EITHER WILSON AV. OR "THE HILL".....AN R-143!!!) lost power all together, causing us to be stranded between stations in the weather for over an hour, with the result being the HVAC shut off, the TOD screen literally went crazy, displaying false door and circuit breaker fault indications. While me and my partner calmed tensions on the train, I had to go back and forth to the cab practically fighting with supervision to come assist us. While we were going thru that, yet another train (yet another R-143!!) got stranded at Wilson Avenue. Both of the trains stuck for over an hour, signals and switches briefly began failing north of B'way Jct, further complicating things. This day proved the crapiness of the R-143S. The ONLY trains who made it up and down the line without incident was the 3 R-42 trainsets stationed on the "L" (they couldn't get more because they were all either on the "J" or in undergrounds storage in Manhattan). Everyone was asking why the R-42s weren't brought in and the R-143s stored up. It was a mess, and proves the crapiness of NYCT's "so-called" New Technology trains, and also showed why the "L" truly is the "L FROM HELL!!"
Does anyone else have a President's Day storm horror story? Interested to hear it!!
How did the R142's on the IRT do? This is also their first real snowstorm also.
It would be similarly "funny" to hear that the Redbirds were hauling ass like the R42's were on the L, while the R143's and R142's were having problems with the snow.
The R142's don't fair any better. The last snowstorm the Dyre line had stalled R142's all over the place and lots of station overruns.
On the 4, which runs a nicely mixed fleet right now, I didn't see any problems in the Bronx on any of the trains, except for signal problems affecting an R-33 set (which obviously can't be blamed on the cars themselves). The R-142A set I ended up riding from 167th to 14th had no problems (except that it was running the weekday program, but I don't think that's the sort of problem you're asking about).
I did overhear two NYCT workers who had come off the 2/5 at 149-GC discussing how much better the Redbirds were than the "computer chip trains."
The R142s and R142As had the same problems as the R143s. The 6 trains were having a hard time making the grade out of Hunts Point Portal. 2 trains were having a hard time getting up the hill btwn E.180St and Bronx Park E due to ice build up on the tracks. As mentioned earlier, a couple of R142s were stuck in the Bx causing suspension of Bronx bound 2/5 service north of 149St-GC for a hour.
Da Beastmaster
Yeah, I was on the L briefly yesterday and can certainly say that the 143's performed poorly. There were 'gapping out' problems on the s/b train I was on left New Lots. The At-Grade ROW was caked over with snow between the rails and all the way up to the 3rd rail. Interior lighting was flashing and I felt the car bucking as we encountered snow and ice on the 3rd rail. While we were held at E 105th St. and took some pictures of the layup track parrallel to the platform and it's third rail was buried in snow! I was surprised that the line was in service with the snow being so close to the tops of the 3rd rail. Luckily, this only appiled to the final two stops on the "L".
BTW, I missed getting some 'fireworks shots' of a passing n/b R-143 at E. 105th...interesting display as sparks were shooting from the 3rd rail shoes's contacts with the 600 volt trackage.
BTW, I missed getting some 'fireworks shots' of a passing n/b R-143 at E. 105th...interesting display as sparks were shooting from the 3rd rail shoes's contacts with the 600 volt trackage.
I remember one ice storm where you could see something like that on the N. Channel Bridge, the ice was coming down and it was a little foggy, looked really cool at night.
OOO, that must of been quite a sight, ride a R68 Q in bad weather and its a "delightful" sight to see blue sparks shotting from the rails but DON'T stare directly into the sparks of course ;-).
Uh oh. Looks like the R143 is performing like the R16 when it snows.
Well unlike from what I've heard on the NYC subways, LI bus did well and was 100 percent on time today.
NYCT had plenty of time to clear the tracks since most of the snow was over by last night, but like LIRR and MNRR, they failed.
It will probably be until Thursday, when they get their act together.
Service was suspended North of Mott on the 2/5 because of "ice". There were reports of people jumping off of trains and walking the structure, and of course control followed the book on everything including trying to get trains to close in on each other so that passengers could walk from one train to the other. The only problem was the snow and ice build up on the anti-climbers made it a hazard to do so.
SERVICE SUSPENDED B'WAY JCT-MYRTLE/WYCKOFF....PEOPLE HIGHLY PISSED!! I went from being what would have been 30+ minutes early to 25 minutes late because I was stranded for 40 minutes at Myrtle/Wyckoff. ... Does anyone else have a President's Day storm horror story? Interested to hear it!!
Dude, try living on the Far Rock line where we didn't get service until 4PM today, and Far Rock still waiting for train service. SO my horror story is being unable to go and do ANYTHING with the A line being the only mode of transportation because DSNY feels every road in Howard Beach is a tertiary road and not worth plowing until the very end.
From what I'm reading, the subways overall didn't do too well during the blizzard, particularly when a line had to go outdoors, is this right?
A New Yorker stranded upstate
PAUL YOU ARE DEAD NEXT TIME I SEE YOU (j/k). I was not a cry baby, I was just saying that the trains were have a very hard time getting up the hill and that the service sould stoped at that time. You left on the train that I came in on and look what happen to you. You get stuck on a cold, dark train for what, an Hour or so. While you were there with frezzing your ASS off, I was in the crew room playing cards with the other crews. So I ask you, Who was better off, You or Me???
Robert
Observed today on a southbound 2 train at 72nd Street:
Routine stop.
"Stand Clear the closing dooors, pleaase"
and the doors proceed to shut JUST AS some guy steps off
the staircase and decides to lunge for the train (getting
his HAND--and only his HAND-- in the doorway) managing to
pry open that particular doorset about 3 inches (still NOT
enough to cause all the doors to reopen) instantaneously
the C/R begins to open-close-open-close-open all doors
(only a few inches more) and the guy STILL has his wrist
dead even in the doorway and stands there grinning as if
his wrist is gonna get the doors to open again.... mind you
his feet are planted on the floor of the platform and he's not
even MAKING AN EFFORT to get his feet/knees/or pudge into the
car.. the passengers try to pull him on FROM THE INSIDE but he
tells them to not worry "he'll open up again.. can't take my wrist."
Just the wrist will do... Bobo.
The C/R cranks up the automated "Please Do Not Hold Car Doors"
announcement redux as the guy peers down the platform and mutters
back to the C/R "Open up... who gave you your license?!?"
He continues to stand there for about 1 minute making no effort
to push his way onboard, (yet seeming to grin as if he's getting
some pleasure from the door jamming on his wrist).. open-close-
open-close... finally he realizes he can fit his frame between
the three inches gap he has opened and manages to get IN THE CAR
after standing there looking (and sounding) like a complete putz.
Memoirs of a certain thread about geese using NEWSPAPERS to
hold subway doors open... gotta "HAND" it to y'all... this act
was just downright obnoxious to watch.
Maybe NYC could balance its budget if they stationed cops in a few critical stations and started giving out more summonses for that kind of wonderful behavior.
Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if the conductor just opened the door for the guy? I mean, all he was doing was trying to make a train, not commit the crime of the century. Maybe the Darwin award should go to the conductor!
some people seem to think it's their god given right to hold everyone else up though. i recall new years eve night being held up by a bunch of dumb kids on queens blvd. who wouldn't let the doors close - quite a few people started yelling at them to get the &^%% out of the doors. I'm surprised a fight didn't break out...
i recall a few years ago the crews would sometimes just 'take the train out of service' - telling everyone to get off when this sort of thing happened. they probably went right back into service at the next stop...
even in the middle of the night, waiting 20 minutes for the next train isn't going to kill anyone... aggrevating a lot of people and or potientally getting dragged might though...
That's why people do such a thing, because they expect to doors to reopen for them. And then they get pissed when the train is late when someone's doing it at every other station.
I agree sometimes the way to avoid the situation is to reopen the doors, but most of the time its just impractical. Go to 59 St/IND or Broadway-Nassau (to name 2) during rush hour, watch ONE person grab the door. C/R reopens, then tries to close until someone else does. Time how long it takes that train to pull out. Now if the C/R kept the doors closed and let that person squeeze on or give up and pull his hand out, note the difference.
I was working the J line in the afternoon. I had no problems. First half trip no snow, coming back a little bit of snow, second round trip no snow. We had curtailed service of 20 minute headways all day due to layups on J1 track south of Supthin meaning single track operation from 121 to Parsons on J2. Some trains had door trouble because our customers insist on stomping the snow off their shoes in the doorways causing the doors not to close properly. Except for a few sections and thru spans above station mezzanines, the J is all structure so the snow falls thru to the street below. The only traction problem was going up the big hill coming out of the subway between Supthin & 121.
Do you know why the J wasn't running express (Marcy-Myrtle) yesterday afternoon around 4:45? At least two consecutive trains ran local. On the first, the C/R asked the T/O over the PA which way the train was going. (If it was just a matter of the wrong lineup, isn't the usual procedure to run express on the local? There was no M directly in front of either J.) I was looking forward to a brief express run in the snow.
On Mon. control said PLAN 4 was in effect for Tues. which states that all lines run maximum length trains and all trains run local.
Local towers may change the express/local part depending on how service running.
The M did not have a full compliment of trains because 4 R42 consists and 12 cars of R143's (destined for Canarsie) were snowed in at Fresh Pond Yard Tuesday. At the beginning of the PM Bay Pkwy schedule, the M's were still operating to/from Chambers for some reason. Around 4 PM, alternate M trains from Met terminated at either Chambers or Bay Pkwy until Broad St received the first train from Bay Pkwy. At that point, all M trains from Met went to Bay Pkwy but they were at least 4 trains short. The J also had a few trains snowed in at ENYD, so all PM Z trains were canceled. Because of both lines being short of cars, Queens bound J trains went local from Marcy to Myrtle and skip stop service was cancelled for the PM rush. Normal service was operating Wednesday for the PM rush (and presumably for the AM while I was sleeping).
Thanks. That answers my question and more. Crowding wasn't bad at all on the J I ended up riding (a few standees south of BJ and a bit more crowded north of BJ, but nothing terrible, at least not in the eyes of this IRT rider).
I thought the M wasn't going past Chambers because of snowbirds on the 4th Avenue express tracks. The N and W were still running local early Tuesday afternoon, at least, and the M would have been a tight squeeze along with the N, R, and W.
Speaking of which, was the M running its usual R-143's on Sunday and Monday (Saturday schedule)? Some R-42's running on the Metro-Chambers M were signed for Metro-Myrtle, but I don't think any R-42's generally run Metro-Myrtle anymore.
I decided to go railfanning yesterday on the snow-day President's Day and was met with some incredible situations:
1) The n/b parking lot at Metuchen was not plowed. I had to climb over a whole lot-length through 1-ft snow to get to the train. (I was catching the 2:11p express which was running 10 mins. late)
2) I headed over to the 2 line at Penn Station to railfan all the way up to 241 St - Wakefield. A 2 train didn't come for a long time, and the announcement stated "Because of the weather, all northbound 2 and 3 trains are running local. All local stops. Two 1 trains came before a 2 came.
3) A whole string of a group of R142 trainsets were left standing on the n/b express track from 42nd St. to 72nd St.
4) We make all stops and do fine until Prospect Av. when we hear that a train has stalled at E. 180 St. and there are 4 other trains behind it. Our train was behind the 4 trains.
5) We are delayed 30 minutes at Prospect Av. before we move.
6) We move onto Intervale Av. where a red signal delays us for an additional 45 minutes.
7) A red signal stops us between Intervale and Simpson Sts. for another 15 minutes.
8) We were delayed at Freeman St. for 20 minutes.
9) Delays at 174th St. and W. Farms Sq. - E. Tremont Av. for 2 minutes each.
10) We were delayed between E. Tremont Av. and E. 180th St. for 10 minutes.
11) The sun had gone down during the route when I was on the train at 3:30p to begin with.
12) An empty R142 trainset marked as a diamond 5 on the front and back and the LCD signs reading "LAST STOP" pulls into E. 180 on the s/b platform. We are delayed at E. 180 St. for 5 minutes. The conductor on the 5 train finally said "5 to Bowling Green" and opened the doors. The second half of that train was the cluster from #7101.
13) An off-duty R142 #5 train in the yard was signed on the LCD panel as "5 - Crown Hts-Utica Av."
14) We creep past E. 180. The snow had completely covered the 3rd rail and the trackbeds of all the tracks in some locations, but overall, the snow made it look like there were no tracks.
15) I think NYCT already pulled out the stalled train, as I saw no signs of it, but a yellow, work locomotive #79 sitting on an adjacent track with a worker inside it.
16) Normal service to 241 with a red signal that delayed us for another 5 minutes at 233 St. for one of the trains to pull out of Wakefield.
17) Along the route, noticed that the conductor can automatically close the doors to keep the heat in leaving one-half door open. To close, the conductor can just close the one-half door that was opened instead of opening all the doors and closing them again.
18) Noticed that after 3 safety "bounce-back" motions, the door refuses to continue to try and close. We were ready to dispatch at 241. (I got on #6648) The conductor attempted to close the doors twice. Sensing no obstruction, the conductor left the motorman to take care of it. The motorman walked down the entire train inspecting which door(s) weren't closing. He got to our car and noticed that door L1 was not closed. He puts in a square key to operate the door on manual. (For both doors) He kicked some snow out of the bottom alignment, but L1 still would do the faint, bounce-back feature. He put both doors on manual and tried his best to kick the snow out of the bottom alignment. After quite a few attempts, he went to the front of the platform to get a yellow, wooden block (about 3 ft. long). He tapped it on the ice that formed on the alignment that was keeping L1 from closing. Then, with repeated whacks, he broke the ice that was blocking the pathway of the door, spattering ice coming at all directions, mostly inside our car. After that was done, he put the doors to automatic mode and L1 closed fine. We were delayed about 5 minutes from our normal dispatching time, but I didn't mind.
19) Not only SubTalkers, but I noticed a NUMBER of people moving from #6648 to the next car on either end because there was a homeless person sitting at the other end of the car.
20) Noticed the "light-speed" of the 2 train going down from 96th St. to 72nd St.
21) The trip from 34th. to 241 St. took 4 1/2 hours.
22) Noticed the emptiness of Penn Station around 8:30pm when I arrived back at 34th. I saw pairs of national guard troops scattered in the avenue-long wing of the station. There was also a quartet of police officers huddled variously inside the long wing.
23) I caught the 9:03p express to Trenton and while walking there, I saw another pair of national guard troops, with one guard catching up to the pair that was ahead of him.
24) There was no PATH service from Newark when I was making the trip to NY. The train in the station had its lights off in one car, and PATH personnel standing outside of it. There was another PATH train behind it with only the first car being in the platform, with its windows blocked with metal plates.
25) 3, R142 trains came southbound towards Manhattan signed "NOT IN SERVICE".
26) An oddball R62A #3 train came trundling down s/b on our way to Simpson St.
27) Noticed the incandescent lighting at Pelham Parkway and the sodium vapor lighting for stations northbound. No fluorescents.
Questions:
1) Why was there a string of R142 trains stored in the n/b express track between 42nd and 72nd?
2) Where did the diamond-5 R142 come from as it pulled into E. 180 s/b?
3) When does the 5 go to Crown Hts - Utica Av?
4) What happens when the 3rd rail gets covered in snow? (When a train tries to overtake it)
5) How fast does the 2 and 3 express travel s/b from 96th to 72nd.?
6) Why were a few R142's marked "NOT IN SERVICE" deported s/b from the Bronx?
7) What was the news with the oddball 3 train in the Bronx?
8) Does Pelham Parkway plan to get any supplemental lighting? It looks very dim during the night.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
1) When the snow gets heavy trains are stored underground rather than in the train yards (I think this is plan 3).
2) The train was on a relay track.
3) The 5 usually does not go to Crown Heights-Utica Av, it goes to Flatbush Av during rush hours. It is possible that one or 2 of them may be scheduled for Utica to better space service.
4) I am not sure I get the 2nd part "(When a train tries to overtake it) " but if the snow cover is heavy enough it could break the contact between the 3rd rail on the contact shoe of the car preventing it from getting power.
5) It depends on the equipment. I was on an R110 years ago and it got to 52 mph. The R142's might be able to hit that on that stretch but I don't think the R62s can.
6) R142's deported? They were probably going for layup on the express tracks on the 7th Av line (see answer to #1).
7) Some #3 trains are stored in the Unionport Yard and leave from E 180th. That train was probably headed for underground storage.
8) I don't think there are any plans for supplemental lighting at Pelham Parkway for the immediate future.
several #5 trains go to Crown Hts Utica, look at the #5 schedule, many also come from there in the PM as well. More <5> trains come from Utica than from Flatbush. The last Brooklyn #5 trains also go to Utica and turn around northbound(some lay up).
1) Cold weather plan in effect trains are layed-up in the tunnel mostly on the N/B Express tracks.
2) The < 5> was programed wrong or newark fault
3) There are about 2 #5 train to Utica for the AM Rush and 5 for the PM Rush starting with the 6:52PM unitl the 7:53 then they start going to Bowling Green.
4) stalled train
5) should be around 40MPH give or take pending on if the train and T/O.
6) Because there where NOT IN SERVICE or programming problems like Netwark fault.
7) About four # 3 trains where layed up at E 180 Street since at the end tracks of Lenox YD only takes 9 cars and the # 3 runs 10 Cars now. So fours train would arrive at E 180 late at night and leave early in the morning.
8) Don't know
For the answer to Question #8:
Pelham Parkway is scheduled for rehab, along with other stations from Bronx Park East all the way up to East 241st st. East 233rd st will be ADA compliant as well, don't know if Pelham Parkway is also being made ADA, but it is one of the key ADA stations marked by NYCT.
5) should be around 40MPH give or take pending on if the train and T/O.
In my experience, R-62A's and R-33's reach the mid-40's on the SB West Side express, and as high as 50 approaching 50th. Do the R-142's tend to reach the same speeds? Higher? Lower? (It's hard to see the speedometer from outside the cab.)
I was on the R142 on the #2 and the train hit 50mph. We where really moving. I have been on the rdbirds on that strech and feels like 80mph but really going 50mph. Then you slow at 50 street. The most I have even gone on the 62s is 45. It all depends if the T/o is late and if he has the go all the way through. Sometimes I think the train is going to crash.lol
AMI
Then you slow at 50 street.
Not if you have R142's. We were flying past 50th yesterday.
(Not if you have R142's. We were flying past 50th yesterday.)
Lucky you. I have experienced slowdowns southbound at 50th on all types of equipment. There is a timer there.
As AlM said, there's a timer just south of 50th. It doesn't matter what sort of train you're riding -- if it approaches the timer too fast (above 40 or so -- I'll let someone else fill in with an exact number), the emergency brakes are tripped and the train comes to a complete halt.
If your train didn't slow down near 50th, then it wasn't going very fast to begin with. Different T/O's have different styles -- some prefer to approach at full speed and take a full service brake while others slow down gradually.
Or, it may be that I am not referring to the correct station. Our train was speeding past 66th and 59th. I think we went a hint slower past 50th but I remember it wasn't that slow.
I was on the R142 on the #2 and the train hit 50mph.
Is that a speedometer reading or an estimate? (All of my speed reports on SubTalk are speedometer readings, FWIW.)
The most I have even gone on the 62s is 45.
I reported a speedometer reading of 48 on an R-62A 3 train a month or two ago. (There are no R-62's on the West Side yet.)
PRogramming problems such as "Network Fault". I wonder if that is equivalent to "Invalid Page Fault" in Windows?
#3 West End Jeff
While arriving s/b at Newark Penn Station, I spotted a train on Track 3 of Comet IIB's and two Comet II unrefurbished's at the front, led by F40PH2CAT #4117. I thought this was the RVL train waiting to depart, but I heard an RVL train with its bells ringing entering Newark on Track 5 from the south. One of the Comet II's was #5693. One of the Comet IIB's had an "AC" below its number.
Also, multiple track switch warmers were spotted in the night in the Harrison area, and also south of Newark Penn Station all the way between Hunter interlocking. Some were very long strands of fire, and some only covered one spot of the switch. At least 6 different track switches, there was a fire burning in them.
Our express had to be operated on Track 6 because the other track switches at Elmora and EWR station were not moved for us to operate on track 5.
1) Do they use natural gas to light the fires?
While arriving s/b at Newark Penn Station, I spotted a train on Track 3 of Comet IIB's and two Comet II unrefurbished's at the front, led by F40PH2CAT #4117. I thought this was the RVL train waiting to depart, but I heard an RVL train with its bells ringing entering Newark on Track 5 from the south. One of the Comet II's was #5693. One of the Comet IIB's had an "AC" below its number.
Also, multiple track switch warmers were spotted in the night in the Harrison area, and also south of Newark Penn Station all the way between Hunter interlocking. Some were very long strands of fire, and some only covered one spot of the switch. At least 6 different track switches, there was a fire burning in them.
Our express had to be operated on Track 6 because the other track switches at Elmora and EWR station were not moved for us to operate on track 5.
1) Do they use natural gas to light the fires?
2) What is the meaning of "AC" below the car #'s on some Comet IIB's?
Those R142's. They are at an unforunate in the wintertime because some subway riders have the proclivity of kicking their shoes against the doors when they're closed to shake off excess slush and snow off of their shoes. This results in each door being "muddied" below the windows. This is not a pretty sight inside of the train.
This happens in *ALL* types of trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, I agree with ya on that. Too bad they didn't keep the carpet on the R44 :-D.
Ice and snow upon the third rail does not exhibit a 'short to ground' but rather an inhability to 'take power' resulting in arcing, flames and molten metal. Winter weather indicates application of special groved contact shoes on some head cars to scrape ice but when the third rail is completely covered in snow, trainlines shut down until special cleaning diesels/jet train cleans up the mess. New Tech AC motor traction systems fail miserably with intermittent third rail contact....the reason why R142s went out of service.
As for measured speed, R142s traction motor system remains limited to about 40 MPH....trainset can coast faster downhill with a rear end breeze. CI Peter
New Tech AC motor traction systems fail miserably with intermittent third rail contact....the reason why R142s went out of service.
The trains that went up past E. 180 all had intermittent contact with the 3rd rail. I noticed this when we were going exceptionally slow past E. 180 toward Wakefield, and I noticed the trackbeds were covered in snow, and the 3rd rails too for the most part. (The wooden cover at the top was "intermittently" covered)
It was clear because I stood by the doors on the left side of the train and the blowers kept shutting off/turning on frequently, sometimes the blowers staying off longer than other times. Also, excessive crackling and sparking at the contact of the 3rd rail, sometimes spreading sparks up to 2 ft. outside of the 3rd rail.
The train, deciding whether to shut off banks of lights, had a maze and had to have a mind of its own to take care of this.
Some track workers were out on the n/b local track switch to try and clear the snow from the switch, but trains going through past 180th after the stalled train was cleared were excessively delayed, giving the workers enough time to do their thing between each train that went n/b.
Last time I checked, the R142's were designed by Bombardier for 100 km/h as its designed top speed. The funny thing is, Bombardier also gave a speed limit to its Comet IV coaches. I thought push/pull coaches could travel at any speed the locomotives could handle.
Wow, you should of just STAYED home but you were a trooper alright; that's a horrid commute.
1) Plan 2 was in effect
2) Not sure about that one but I suspect it was signed wrong
3) Some 5's go to Utica rush hours since Flatbush Av can't handle the amount of 2's and 5's
4) Power should still be there but enough snow can decrease the 3rd rail power
5) I've been on trains that went 48mph on a R62A 3 train, 45-46 when Redbirds were there and probably 50 on a R142 in that stretch.
6) Don't know about that
7) At times (3) trains get sent up to the Bronx
8) Maybe when the station renovations via WPR starts
The R142's can't go that fast. They're limited to 40.
WHOA, that took me by surprise! Newer cars and they are limited to 40mph, interesting :-\.
The TA did that to them on purpose. They are capable of going faster than 40.
Bomba R142s are capable of continuous 68 mph on decent trackage.
Last Alstom software revision cuts propulsion power to 40 mph max.
System doesn't account for coasting. CI Peter
A bit late, but here are my answers:
1. Plan 2 was probably in effect, thus all express track were used to store needed trains indoors. This is applied to extreme cold temperatures and the snowstorm we had on Sunday.
2. Diamond #5 train nornmally pulls into center track, but may also use the local track, since East 180th St has full switches at both ends, allowing any train to any track.
3. #5 trains go to Utica between 7:30 PM-8:45 PM M-F (after the last #5 goes to Flatbush.) Additional #5 extras go to either Utica or New Lots during rush hours only.
4. If 3rd rail gets covered in snow, the train cannot move in that area. It must be cleared by NYCT's snow sweeper.
5. See other postings, speed varies by model, and T/O use of controls.
6. Maybe to get ready for Plan 2 for indoor, underground storage. Also, early in the morning rush hour since there is no Brooklyn yard (except for the tiny one at New Lots.), some trains have to start in Brooklyn because of the gap in service. During PM rush, a few #5 extras run lite to Bowling Green and run full Uptown, most of these are the East 238th Thru extras.
7. I did see the #3 train coming from the Bronx, running lite as far back as 1988. Lenox Terminal does not have enough space for all it's #3 trains, so a couple go to East 180th st for layups.
8. See my previous post, it's scheduled for rehab sometime this year.
The A remains suspended between Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway,all trains are going to Lefferts Blvd.There is NO Franklin Av shuttle service.The G is running in 2 sections:Court Sq-Bedford/Nostrand Av and Bedford-Nostrand Av-Hoyt/Schmerhorn St. Also bus wise the M27 and M42 are terminating at 2Av while the M50 and M104 are ending at Lexington Av.
...and VtrainM47bus is still picking on busfan....film at 11.
Peace,
ANDEE
F and G service returns to nornal along Smith-9th st viaduct. G service terminates at Smith-9th Sts.
A service to the Rockaways, M service to Bay Parkway, and Franklin Ave shuttle service are still suspended.
As always, expect delays on all other outdoor subway routes and all bus service.
Are G trains carrying passengers to Smith-9th now? Around 12:30 they were discharging at Carroll.
F and G service returns to nornal along Smith-9th st viaduct. G service terminates at Smith-9th Sts.
A service to the Rockaways, M service to Bay Parkway, and Franklin Ave shuttle service are still suspended.
As always, expect delays on all other outdoor subway routes and all bus service.
ADDEUM: Metro-North upgrades it's schedule today at 3 PM from Sunday to Saturday schedule on all routes. If you are planning to catch a train after 3 Pm today, look at the Saturday schedule, instead of Sunday.
In the December Mass Transit, a trade magazine, I spotted a very strange adv.
For Edwards Railcar. The small adv. has two photos of very old looking equipment. Sure enough the web site (edwardsrailcar.com) confirms: From 1917 to 1942 they mfg. 130 cars for 50 customers.
Back in business in 1997 they are producing the same models, that's right the SAME models !
So if you want a motorcar, trailer, elect. street car and other "vintage" stuff give them a call 352-383-7910 ... that's a Fla. number vs. one of those Crib. numbers that are a scam.
enter this into your URL
you can see photos of the station and subway cars burned up
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030218/ap_on_re_as/skorea_subway_fire_53
you have to do it today
Amidst wars and rumors or wars, take a moment to see if you like my new 404 page
Maybe the train should have been signed for 76th Street? :)
Excellent
AGREED,
Peace,
ANDEE
I LIKE it!!!
I imagine you might get a lot of hits to your 404 page now :)
--Mark
I get this when I visit 405.html too.
:(:))
Excellent smilie...
YOU DA MAN !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I love it.
>>> see if you like my new 404 page <<<
You get an "A" for originality, but if I am going to get an Error Message, I would rather have one that loads a bit faster.
Tom
Syntax error ... time for a three finger salute < grin >
Paul
Too bad you could not see me break into a big smile.
Phil Hom
But I can picture it, Phil. Thanks. :)
I wish to report that I had NO PROBLEMS at all on the D train. Have made it to work both days.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wish to report that I had NO PROBLEMS at all on the D train. Have made it to work both days.
Hehe, well all underground does help.....
Seriously though, I'm not a big fan of the R68's, in fact they are probably one of my least favorite in the fleet. However, I have to give them this, they seem to be pretty reliable. At least I don't really hear many complaints about them (aside from being non-railfan friendly - and the horribe worst-in-the-system scratched windows).
They have a unique grunt.
They also lull me to sleep, especially on the Brighton local. Whether that's good or bad depends on whether I'm trying to sleep or to railfan.
Not to mention that 'jet engine' noise. Some other rolling stocks seem to have them for me, like some R62A's or R46's but it's most distinct on the R68's. I also admire the Slants but most of the times, this annoying screech airs whenever an annoucement is made. It sometimes gets to be too much and I feel like bashing my head into the windows.
Most scratchiti-windows... I thought the Redbirds held that honor. The 7's are absolutely horrible.
I happen to like the "Jet Engine" noise. The noise I CANNOT STAND is the PA noise. You would think that after 5 years they would be able to figure that out. But, then again this is the TA, an organization that can give 2 shits about the comfort of thier riders.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's the jet engine noise? Is that when it leaves the station?
*SOME* R-68s make a jet engine like noise all the time. You just have to be there to experience it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Most R-68's, I think -- but only a few R-62A's. They always catch me by surprise. I don't particularly mind it but I'm more at home with the usual sound. (I find the sound the R-62A makes while stopping particularly satisfying.)
The R-62A's don't suffer from the PA noise nor from the R-68 signature grunt.
Well Andee, it was WORSE than the annoying PA system noise today. I was riding R68 2821 from Dekalb around 2:10pm and the PA was full of static, crackling, the annoying noise was LOUD, the C/R's voice was rather loud [a good thing actually] and he seemed to forget to mute the PA after making a stop. It made my commute bad and made my ears hurt >:-0.
Just purely ANNOYING! BTW, this was on the Q local heading s/b.
Yeah I know what you're saying Greenberger. It's a comfortable ride on the Brighton when you have a R68 however I love when they go FAST like when on a express [I miss when they dominated the Brighton express :-(, but the slants and R40M's are cool :-)] or the 60 St tube
I saw this on the MTA's LIRR website under the "weather advisory" page.
"The LIRR is operating on a weekday schedule today. We are currently experiencing an average of 15 – 30 minute delays systemwide as a result of weather-related problems. Some isolated train delays are longer.
For the PM peak, customers should anticipate that some trains will not have their full complement of cars; and that some trains will be canceled or combined. Train service will operate from Long Island City Station in Queens.
Bus service will operate in place of train service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport.
There are currently no stops being made at Woodside, Kew Gardens or Forest Hills on eastbound Main Line trains from New York. Eastbound Port Washington Branch trains will make stops at Woodside."
Does this mean that all eastbound service is starting from LIC station and not Penn? What about Flatbush Avenue? Boy, I'm glad I stayed home today.
"Does this mean that all eastbound service is starting from LIC station and not Penn?"
No, it means that service WILL be available from LIC (in addition to other places like Penn and Brooklyn). Previous bulletins said that NO service is available at LIC.
It meant Penn Sta - Jamaica trains were using the Express track only.
TIA for those who may know. I know the Rockaway and Franklin shuttle lines are still not running.
A number of subway trainlines were pulled because their yards had frozen switches/snow filled third rails and certain above ground
lines had snow filled third rails. On the #5, we had 'clean the inspection pits and paint yellow lines day' because no trains came in for #5 or #2 inspection. RTO ran diesels with their little snow plows into our doorways with no results. Service will be restored with rising temperatures....word was 180th would bring out the jet engine blower in the Bronx. Third rail traction systems don't work well with ice and snow. I enjoyed the break today!!! CI Peter
If the 4th Avenue express tracks (north of 36th) are still needed for snowbirds, the N and W will still run local in Brooklyn and the M will still be terminating at Chambers. (I assume that's why it was cut back today.)
I found this posted by noted NYCT modeler Nate Gerstein at Modeling SubTalk:
'Bad news! I've been informed by my Russian manufacturer that due to the death of the model maker working on the R-1 to 9's, there will be a further delay in the project.
Good news! The same manufacturer is ready to deliver Third Ave Railways 626-685 Lightweights. The car is modeled after the 629 at Branford. This car is O-scale and a photo of it is in the latest issue of Trolley Talk. The importer is GHB International www.ghbintl.com.'
GHB's web page hasn't been updated since 2000, unfortunately...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Neither the mta.info site nor 1010WINS mentioned that there was no #7 service into or out of Main Street this morning! Thousands of people showed up expecting the trains to be running, and were told instead to take the shuttle bus to Shea Stadium for the train. The line for the bus (yes, bus -- singular!) was blocks long.
The radio did mention the other service disruptions, and the mta.info site did list others, but no one seemed to know about the #7. I never would have gone there if I knew in advance. Isn't that the purpose of the travel advisories???
There was a preliminary report only. Allegedly, there was a mishap with a put-in passing a red signal and splitting a switch entering Main St. This was a preliminary report only w/no confirmation.....
That's correct. Switch run through by a put-in.
Yeah, that was VERY unpleasant. After giving up on the LIRR Port Washington branch because the ticket agents told everyone, "We have no idea when there will be a train, but it's going to be a long time," I took an N21 to Flushing expecting to catch a 7 into Manhattan. At around 8:30am, I arrived there along with countless other busloads of commuters to discover that we had to board shuttle buses...
The line visible in the photo is actually one of two ... the other one is longer, and on the other side of Roosevelt Avenue.
My mamma tol' me not to...but, I swear, I see a line like that, I walk. Or take a bus down to Jamaica.
I walked
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah. I wonder why more people didn't do so. It isn't THAT far! Thought I could see the concern for the snow and everything, the run from Main to Shea via walking is good for a run.
Well I remember when there was a GO in warmer weather that had no 7 between Main and Shea, and how few people accompanied me on my walk, choosing to wait for crowded, packed shuttle buses.
>>> The line visible in the photo is actually one of two <<<
Is that line standing in the middle of the street? What is the orientation of the picture? Is that on the south side of Roosevelt looking east toward Main?
Tom
Is that line standing in the middle of the street?
Almost. There were about 1.5 "lanes" of traffic -- .75 in each direction =) -- down the middle of Roosevelt. There was snow and and slush between the sidewalk and the street, so people ended up lining up in the street to get on shuttle buses.
What is the orientation of the picture? Is that on the south side of Roosevelt looking east toward Main?
That's correct.
Probably would've been quicker just walking to the Willets point station. I did that awhile ago when they had a weekend GO that meant shuttle buses from Main st.
No way would I wait on a line like that, I'd rather walk.
Nice photo. Shots of hot action going down are the best... Ok, this isn't hot action, but it is happening news.
---Brian
[Neither the mta.info site nor 1010WINS mentioned that there was no #7 service into or out of Main Street this morning!]
Obviously, the higher-ups at 1010WINS and Shadow Traffic don't use the Flushing Line, and thus don't need to bother announcing a disruprion.
You know I was fooled by the conductor today on the A Line, I was going Manhattan Bound, boarded at Nostrand Avenue at about 1:30 pm today and the conductor sound like the High Tech Computer Announcements, he sounded clear and C/R said everything that needed to be said about each station, This guy was professional! We need more C/R like that, and anyway who ever that was driving that train was good, stopped in the stations gradually and took off smoothly and in the cranberry tube, we must atleast topped a good 50 mph with a R44, I was in Car #5289.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Yeah, you could almost imagine it was an r160...
I know who that conductor is. I'll have to tell him that he has a fan on the A line. :)
For real??? Tell him that's he's good!!
Maybe it's the same C/R I had back in December, and (thanks to help from Goumba_Tony) was able to identify him and write a commendation letter to TA. I posted a scan of the TA's thank you letter a few weeks ago.
Yes, I remember that, Mr Todd.
Peace,
ANDEE
where did you get off? I wonder if he said Dyckman St-200th St like the announcements would say Nereid Av-238th St
I got off at 34 Street, man he was real good!!
My mom came back home about 10 minutes ago telling me of a track fire at 14 St - 8 Av. Anyone have any idea as to cause?
I know there was a track fire at 14-6 Av on Monday but I don't know about this one.
babs to brooklyn were ten minute late max
no penn service at all
the brooklyn branch was all cleared, train went usual 70 mph to ENY, then about 45 the rest of the way, the EL was no trouble.
the 3rd rail was completely covered in some places, the mus had flickering lights all the way to jamaica, and the super-curve from the st albands tracks over hillside facility where it joins the main line, the train lost power, but its momentum got it through without stopping
SO.. brooklyn service was only about 10 min late, penn 2 hours at least
What time was this?
tuesday 7:48 came to merrick at 7:55
formerly "smugglerbuddy"
Tuesday-- understandable
every day we should compose a list of all the delays and screwups of the rails, we might not have enough space though! lol
I remember many years ago the Daily News used to have a short column entitled "Late Again - Here's Why?"....
Maybe they should start it up again ;-)
Unlike in the 80s, there are not that many delays on a daily basis. (Blizzards don't count.) Most of the time, when I listen to the traffic and transit reports on WINS, they say "no transit problems reported."
Impossible. We need an information-relay system that is fast enough to allow such information to get to the website, which is currently unavailable. Once the MTA puts their 'fiber-optic' system to use, maybe we'll see somthing.
i mean at the end of each day, us subtalkers make alist of the days delays and why they were delayed
Oh sorry... I suppose that's possible! :) We just gotta ignore the trash, it has to be sifted!
Found this article on www.techlive.com look for the show notes for Friday's show.
Boost Your Biodefense
The government is recommending safety kits, duct tape, and plastic sheets to get you and your family through a chemical or biological attack, if -- God forbid -- one ever occurs. But the company that makes space suits for NASA, ILC Dover, might have a better solution. It's the SCape Hood, a "revolutionary gas mask." How does it work? Find out on this weekend's "Tech Live"
I have seen this advertized in health and emergency supply catalogs.
It is about $1000 bucks for a flimsey one-time-use escape hood.
Maybe it would have worked in Chicago, eh?
Elias
Who here was videoing trains on the NB track at the Bowery around 4:30 this afternoon? (I was standing a bit back from the railfan window on a J train.)
And who here was standing at the south end of the SB platform at 85th-Elderts with a camera? (I was at the window on a different J train.)
I got my own shots at Marcy, 121st, Smith-9th, and 62nd-New Utrecht (both levels).
I got my own shots at Marcy, 121st, Smith-9th, and 62nd-New Utrecht (both levels).
Lucky :(
I'll second that.
It wasn't planned that way. I started a Fun Pass in the morning because I also had travel plans for the afternoon. Then those travel plans got cancelled, and I felt silly disposing of a twice-used Fun Pass, so I went back out for another round of railfanning.
I have actually done that a few times. I bought a Fun Pass knowing that I would have to leave the system once or twice along the way during the course of my day (not railfanning). Sometimes, the weather was really nice, and I was in the mood to walk around the city, instead of jump back on the subway, and eventually walked to my destinations. I have done that on a few occasions using a Fun Pass only twice. I always feel dumb though afterwards because I think to myself, what in the world did I waste a Fun Pass for. But usually the walk was worth it....
The dumbest Fun Pass usage I ever had:
Once I rode into Penn Station on the LIRR and had some business somewhere in the 50's, but knew I wanted to go to Chinatown also afterwards, and some other places too, and used a Fun Pass to get to 53rd/5th. When I was done with what I had to do, it was such a beautiful day that I wound up walking downtown. It went fast and by the time I was at 14th Street, I figured I might as well walk to Chinatown, which I did. Once there, I coincidentally met someone I knew, and we wound up walking back up to somewhere in the teens to have lunch. Well you guessed it. I wound up walking back to Penn Station. I got some great usage out of that Fun Pass!
I love the subway, but if it's nice out, I really enjoy walking through the city. I more than made up for it on some Fun Pass usages, but using one once is really insane.
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of the 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & in full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. My supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $15.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
The Subway Girl is stealing some of your action :-(
Well, Drexel just had to open today, a whole two hours late, but at least the ride in on PATCO made it worth it.
First there are small mountains of snow in Woodcrest's expanse of blacktop, amazing feats of snow 'moval (they didn't really remove it, just moved it). The middle of the three tracks at Woodcrest is pretty funny, it's got the 20+" that everbody got, plus a good foot more from the shoveling of the platforms, that track looks OOS til about mid-March if they don't get a plow. Who knows how the express-local runs in the morning will work once they get back to full ridership.
The train pulls in, #286, and I grab the aisle railfan seat with an elderly gentleman to the window side. The T/O's curtain is wide open and there's a Patco supervisor who's walking back and forth up and down the car. All I can hear on the radio is stuff about trains discharging and recharging and then discharging moments later. We sit and sit, maybe 3 or 4 minutes, which is an eon to PATCO. During all of this it's fun to listen on the radios for "Westbound at Woodcrest...," as they update the T/O on when we'll get to go.
Finally we're off, no different than usual, slightly slower acceleration, and the wonderful noises of third rail arcing almost constant. The I-295 and NJTP bridges immediately west of Woodcrest flicker with brilliant white light from the 3rd rail icing and arcing. We make it to the Haddonfield layover track, where suddenly the T/O gets the beep of death and the train lurches to a stop. It was pretty clear that the stop was made while sliding, the last second was like driving on a gravel road. I had thought we hit a red caused by an OOS train ahead of us and the ATO stopped us, not an uncommon thing, especially after a considerable station hold. Turns out that the at grade portion west of Woodcrest, east of Haddonfield is highly suceptable to 3rd rail icing because the snow has nowhere to go, so it piles up next to the rail, melts and refreezes on the rail. This ice also interupts the ATO signals, and that is what caused the BIE that we experienced, the computer loses contact with the signals and assumes a red signal has been run. So it's recharge and try again. This time we make it about 2000' or so feet, get up to 60 or so MPH, before SLAM, this time I damn near hit the window, we just skidded to a stop. Again, recharge, this time call to tower, ask for ATO to be turned off, get ok, move off. We limp into Haddonfield after maybe 5 minutes running from Woodcrest (usually it's 2 or so). Out of haddonfield it's pretty bad, the cut seems like frankenstein's laboratory, alive with 3rd rail arcing. Westmont is almost fine, but there's a brilliant spark that reflects off an adjacent apartment building just before it. Finally at Collingswood the T/O calls for Normal ATO, and shoves the throttle back to "Spectator" mode.
We zoom (70MPH!) to Ferry Ave, where I see my first eastbound, turns out thats one of the ones I heard on the radio, going BIE, recharge, BIE recharge, BIE... . After that we creep past the work equipment and the work site (YAY they're almost done with the Concrete ties, less than 4 miles!). Camden is a complete mess, amazing that anyone can go anywhere in that mass of snow. From Ferry Ave onward the T/O has been getting calls about speed restrictions in between Broadway Camden and City Hall camden. We run parallel to Mt Ephraim and duck under the CSAO line, pass through the tiny open cut, and it's into Broadway Camden. Just before we enter Broadway, the points on the turnout for the crossover immediately before the station aren't aligned right. It turned out that they were supposed to be that way, we were passing an ailing trainset, but for a moment I thought for sure I was dead. This is only made worse by the fact that we go BIE right after that. A train coming over the bridge still had clearance through Broadway Camden and somebody forgot to tell the tower folks that we were switching over and would need their tracks from just before Broadway Camden through just past City Hall camden. This time the stop is worse than the other two, and the lights go out, inexplicably, the T/O charges up again, and we crawl into the station. As we wrong rail it around the Camden curve (maybe 750' of track between City Hall and Broadway, all of it on a sharp curve), I see that the stalled trainset has #259 on the east end and it's rear door is open to the tracks (I dunno why). We cross back over to the westbound tracks for the bridge, but sitting at the camden portal is an eastbound special, lead by #247, this is the train that screwwed us up at the Broadway crossover.
I hopped off at 8th and Market for a MFL train, and managed to make it to drexel just in time to find that my lecture was canceled because the professor was nowhere to be found. Oh well, I had other classes today, not a complete wasted effort to get there. The way home was downright boring, nothing happened, even though I made sure I grabbed the RFW at 16th and Locust. Can't have fun all the time.
Hey, I can't wait to se Jersey Mike's comments on you post! He's a real PATCO Lover!
I went to Drexel in the late 60's and took Commerce & Engineering.
I should be selling technical stuff, not designing w/ 3-D.
Good luck at Drexel!
Chuck Greene
Hey I love PATCO too, a great example of engineering something quite advanced without the need for great gobs of computerized crutches. They ride soooo smooth, and the seats are SOOOO well padded (least to my featherweight behind). Plus there's the Picture RFW, you can see EVERYTHING out that monster, Neu Yahkers just don't know what their missing in their portholes.
I was merely making light of the morning's escapades, PATCO was still running 10 minute headways, with minimal delays, and with very few other problems. They still got me where I had to go, with minimal driving on my part and a comfortable ride into the city, where I got to thumb my nose at the people screaming at their steering wheel on the Ben Franklin!
Yo Chuck!
I like PATCO, too. So does my grandson, who was still excited after the ride was over, at age 15 months.
PATCO snow shot
Wow! Talk about a PATCO trip! I thought I was lucky when my train used the West Haddonfield pocket track to wrong rail. Your ride ranks up there with that train that got stuck on the BFB at 2AM and they had to send a rescue train to get the people off.
Glad you had a good time. I liked your post very much. Interesting signal problems.
That train just earned itself a trip to the truing machine.
Did any of you go to this today? I did.
-------------------------------------
TRANSFORMING TRANSIT
A New York Metro Chapter APA Event, Co-sponsored by the Municipal Art Society (MAS) and the CUNY Institute for Urban Systems (CIUS).
February 18, 2003
6:00 PM
At the Urban Center, 457 Madison Avenue (between 50th & 51st Streets)
One hundred years ago, the construction of New York's extensive train and subway network transformed the region. Today, the New York metropolitan area finds itself at a crossroads, as it seeks to repair the damage resulting from September 11, while increasing its connections to the world outside. How do the many transit improvements proposed by our regional transit agencies fit into the greater policy objectives for the City and Region? How will we finance them all?
This panel discussion will be moderated by: Robert Paaswell, Director of the CUNY Institute for Urban Systems (CIUS) Our Distinguished Panelists include:
-Bill Wheeler, MTA's Director of Special Project Development and Planning
-Richard Ravitch, Principal of Ravitch Rice & Co., Former MTA Chair
-Preston Niblack, Deputy Director of the Independent Budget Office
To RSVP, call (212) 935-3960. For more information, ask for Kimberly Miller at this number. Or call the New York Metro Chapter of the American Planning Association at (212) 228-7875.
I guessed I missed it....not in your 'exclusive' circle. Just a short walk away from my apartment. Got my pick today: one more year of #5 with less and less Redbirds. Post this stuff in advance!
CI Peter
Sorry, I just found out about it today at work. NY1 the tv channel was there so maybe it will be on the news or something.
---Brian
Brian...only WE 'give a hoot about this.' Peter
Well the place was packed. I'd say at least 50 people. Many to most of them were transit professionals in the planning or engineering or finance fields...
---Brian
So what are we: chopped liver? We too are transit professionals.
If and when the LACKAWANNA CUT is returned to passenger service, Frelinghuysen Township (New Jersey) will call me up as a transportation board member because of my experience and knowledge.
Two years ago, I was servicing computers/pinball machines/CD jukeboxes and simulators. Now I MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
The following school districts are closed:
Montgomery County
Fairfax County
Alexandria
DCPS
PG County
Anne Arundel Conuty (and Thursday, too)
Calvert County
Charles County
Arlington County
Falls Church City
Fauquier County
Loundon Conuty (for rest of week)
Manassas City
Prince William County
Spotsylvannia County
Stafford County
Federal government is open with an unscheduled leave policy in effect
That said, here is the DC Area transportation situation for tomorrow:
MetroRail: 12-15 minute frequencies at all stations (today was 30), only 450 out of 680 trains will be available for service and
the full fleet is not expected to return again until next week, parking will be limited in the lots due to snow "removal"
MetroBus/MetroAccess: "Modified weekday" schedule on main routes only, no neighborhood service, board bus at nearest
major plowed street
VRE: Modified Schedule at the request of CSX
MARC Penn: "S" Holiday Schedule
MARC Camden: Two southbound trains in the AM, two return trains in the PM
MARC Brunswick: Two inbound trains from Brunswick to Union Station, bus from Point of Rocks to Brunswick, two return
trains in the PM to Brunswick, bus from Brunswick to Point of Rocks, no Frederick service, MARC tickets honored on 991
bus from Monocacy to Shady Grove and on the MetroRail
Both MARC and VRE: Limited parking due to snow "removal"
Ride-On: Limited Weekday schedule, all weekday routes in operation but frequencies dependent on demand and conditions
DASH: "Modified weekday" according to Tristan (BusStalker), If I am wrong, direct all insults and negative feedback to him ;-)
Sorry, no info on ART, CUE, Fairfax Connector, The Bus, or PRTC. I will post it if I find out what they are doing or someone
else will do us the favor.
Now I find out the rest of the info:
All ART - Arlington Transit routes will be operating on a modified weekday schedule on Wednseday, February 19. Paratransit will begin operating at 7 AM.
FAIRFAX CONNECTOR will be operating LIMITED WEEKDAY SNOW SERVICE on the following routes ONLY: South County - 101, 103, 105, 106, 107, 109, 110, 204, 383, 384, 385, and 401 North County - 425, 504, 505, 605, 950, RIBS 1, RIBS 2, RIBS 3 and RIBS 4 In addition, Supplemental Express Service will be provided from Herndon-Monroe and Reston East Park-and-Rides to and from West Falls Church VT/UVA Metrorail Station.
PRTC-all routes in operation except one
OmniLink-no off-route trips
The Bus-12, 13, 20, 21, 22, 25, 30, 32, 33, 51
15 Express will begin service at 9 a.m.
11, 15, 16 will begin service at Noon
21 Express will operate if PGCC is open
I stopped in at Princeton Junction and Cherry Hill on my way home from work on Tuesday to get some more snow pix. They are the bottom eight shots on this Webshots page.
Your photos are always great. You are always where the action is. Thanks so much.
---Brian
P.S. I was at the Jct on New Years Day 2001 I believe, right after a whopper of a snowstorm. I got some of my best photos ever there. I hope to go back sometime.
Wonderful pics!
Hi folks,
How would snow affect a MAGLEV system? If MAGLEV proves to be a waste of money on commuter lines, would you mind if MAGLEV is used on amusement park rides instead? Would we be able to protect a MAGLEV line like a normal train? What would occur if New York's subway system were to suddenly convert to MAGLEV overnight? Why is MAGLEV so expensive?
- Richard R.
I don't think Maglev in most forms would be adversely affected by snow. Most of the snows that we see out here would just be blown off the guideway just by the passing of a train or two per hour. For monster snows like the one we just had, it might be necessary for specialized snow removal equipment to be used, however there never really was a HEAVY snow with this storm, it was just steady, for 2 days, so even then it might keep up. A system like the Japanese MLX01 might have problems since it's basically an open cut, and consequently difficult to remove snow from. Monorail Maglevs like the Transrapid system would be simplicity in themselves to remove snow from, just knock it off the top and leave it for the ground dwellers to carry off. I suppose that if snow builds up on the guideway before a train could go through and a plow wasn't handy, revinue trains could be run at reduced speed. Of course ANY mode of tranportation will be slowwed down if the snow is high enough, it's just a fact of life.
Making Maglev for commuter lines is the biggest mistake that can possibly be made, and forcing it to become Disney-ized would be downright criminal. I've always taken it that Maglev is there to run extremely long runs (least for HSR trains) to compete with the puddle-jumper commuter trash that clogs the major airports today.
Right now the problem with Maglevs currently operating is that they either use Superconductors or Feedback Control circuits to keep the maglev right where it should be. This leads to the two biggest achilles heels of the maglev program, the cost and the safety factor. Superconductors are EXTREMELY expensive and require them to be cooled to below room temperature (some are very near absolute zero, like 100k), this means that not only are the tracks expensive, but they require expensive cooling systems to keep the superconductors cold. Plus theres that whole thing of floating a 300mph train millimeters above the track, which until now has been done with feedback circuits, where the magnets report the distance between the trainset and the track, and then the onboard or ontrack computer decides to increase or decrease the power to the lift magnets. This system is very very prone to catestrophic failure, wastes electricty, and can lead to an uncomfortable ride if the load should shift.
Of course I said, "until now," thanks to the Halbach Array, Maglev is possible with a dumb guideway, dumb lift system, and room temperature magnets in the guideway. The Halbach Array is really just a series of shorted coils mated to some permanent rare earth magnets. It's fully automatic in it's compensation for changing load conditions and increases it's lifting ability as it's speed increases. At zero mph, there is zero lift, as the maglev accelerates it will slowly lift off the guideway, this of course would necessitate a landing gear for speeds under 10-15 mph. Because energy is bled off the forward motion of the Maglev to create the lifting power a loss of power to the track is no problem, since it's not powered, even a loss of whatever is driving it forward, be it LIM, Diesel, or Gas Turbine, the maglev will keep coasting along until it slows and comes to a halt on it's landing wheels. In addition, the electodynamic drag of the array actually decreases as the speed increases, unlike steel-wheel on steel rail, where frictional drag increases as speed increases.
If the NYC subways were to magically convert overnight to maglev I wouldn't expect much of a change. It would be MUCH smoother since there wouldn't be any track-train contact. But don't expect to see any 70+mph running, maybe not even 60+ mph running, to no fault of the Maglev, the small tunnels of the NYC subway without the nice transitions found on European HSR lines would create a nightmare of currents if the maglevs were allowed to go too fast. The maglevs would compress the air in front of them, pushing it onto the other tracks, running the risk of damaging an oncoming or passing train with it's wake, which would be amplified by the confines of the 4 track tunnel.
I think in terrorism Maglev may fare slightly worse than the FRA mandated monsters that roam our rails right now, they're just so overbuilt that they could take virtually anything short of a direct 2000lbs bomb blast and survive. However, with that weight and apparant safety comes the fact that they cannot be used effectively in high speed operation. In order for Maglev to compete it must be built with a perfect balance between weight and safety, not sacrificing safety just to save weight, but not ending up with a trainset that will take off at 50mph with the landing wheels falling off, but excedes the FRA type II regs.
Hmmmm. I guess nobody seriously considers underground long distance vacuum tunnel trains anymore.
And why not?
Good question. I dunno. Maybe not enough young thinkers considering it anymore. That's what it takes to keep such ideas alive. Not just us old farts. But it sure would be cool....imagine walking down the subway entrance and boarding a train headed to Los Angeles. And getting there in two hours.
Science fiction stuff. For now....
p.s.: can you imagine the head-end view?? RFW at 2k mph??!
Thats a definite possiblity, however it would be nearly impractical for the NYC subways. Think of the time needed in the stations for the cars to line up with the platform doors, establish an airlock, and then make sure that the lock is big enough to accomodate enough passengers for transfers at a large station complex like Times Square. The other solution would be to have the trains themselves pass through airlocks in the tunnels just prior to, and just after the train passes through. These would need to be very fast cycling airlocks for their size, maybe as much as 45 cycles an hour. The most ridiculous solution would be to have required "Subway Suits" for the passengers to wear while on the platform in the null-atmosphere, I suppose they could actually be quite light, just weave kevlar into a plastic or fabric liner, blow it up like a balloon and tell people not to try to bend over to pick stuff up.
A vacuum maglev might be perfect for a kind of super HSR "Back door" route between North America and Asia via the Bering Strait. I think I heard something like this back when I was in 5th grade or so, the rationalization was that oil prices would eventually climb so high that they would render Airliners too expensive to operate, the solution is a 600mph tube with all the air evacuated running from like Seattle, San Fran, LA and Vancouver (where at all four it links into a standard Maglev line cross-country to Chicago, NY, Toronto, or Atlanta) to destinations in Asia, with direct runs across Siberia to Moscow or further. When I thought about it I had no knowledge of LIMs, or any of the other stuff that they're now playing with in Maglevs, and thought it would use like 3 of the Saturn V's F1 engines, now I realize that that is massive overkill and that LIMs would more than suffice, provided they were supplied with enough watts.
It begs asking.
Exactly WHAT is this oval hoop-like object on the top-front exterior of car 9676?
What purpose did this (jugglers handle?) serve?
simple, it's a missile-launcher for when the Soviets invade. The missile was removed to reduce the possibility of an accidental launch near the World's Fair, which would have led to massive panic, and eventually global-themonuclear war.
It was the "antenna" for the "Identra" train idenification system. These devices would send a signal to the signs at the station that would indicate whether the train was an express or a local.
#3 West End Jeff
We had exp/local station SIGNS back then???
IIRC, you'd not know if it was an EXP or a LOCAL
until it rolled in and you read the forehead...
Hmmm...
Of course. They were pulled later as part of a 'cost-cutting' measure over at Corona. Pretty moronic, mind you.
"We had exp/local station SIGNS back then???"
There were station indicators at 5th Ave. Grand Central, Vernon-Jackson, 45th Road, (for EXP/LOCAL) plus other stations there were used before they were removed in the mid 90's. At 45th Road/Courthouse Square, the old indicator bar still exists near the exit.
SEPTA's Broad Street Subway uses them, too.
I can safely assume that Philadelphia (SEPTA) kept them in use rather than removing as the NYCTA did in later years.
#3 West End Jeff
They WORKED in Philadelphia. Those toilet lids had a nasty habit of not being picked up accurately in TA country which is why they were never installed on ALL trains ... but they worked in Philly.
It is interesting how certain things NEVER work in the New York City subways, but they work fine elsewhere.
#3 West End Jeff
Can't blame Joe Bruno for that one ... but yeah, it IS interesting how the EMPIRE state makes does the Ozarks proud by comparison. Where ELSE can you get so many chefs for one pot? :)
NYC has the worst radio congestion of any place in the US. It's quite likely that this system used a frequency that was subject to a lot of interference from other sources.
GPS doesn't really work well in NYC, and you certainly can't blame that on NYC incompetence.
I agree with you. Look how crowd the AM dial is in New York.
#3 West End Jeff
The subways here carry the stubborness the commuters have.
You have a way with words.:) Water faucets for lever-type door controls, bottlecaps for trigger caps, and now toilet lids. That's OK; our brass teacher in high school once referred to a tuba mouthpiece as a toilet bowl.
Can't take credit for "toilet lid" ... someone else here used that monicker (though I recall the term being used years ago by the ball pein hammer squad) and I just adopted it ... I guess it's all those years in radio - sometimes well chosen words provide just the visualization folks need for that "aha!" of comprehension. :)
But it sure IS a neat term. Although some right-wing moron'll probably give me a hard time about it. Heh.
"Toilet lid" would also describe a dome put on top of Shea Stadium. They actually considered doing that, but discovered the stadium pilings would not support any kind of roof.
If you knew what Shea was built on top of, you'd be AMAZED that it hasn't caught fire, fallen over and sank into da swamp. Whoops, gave it away. :)
I know it was built on a trash dump. Flushing Meadow Park is also landfill. The former NY State Pavilion from the World's Fair is actually sinking. It wasn't meant to be retained permanently and was built on wooden pilings.
Shea Stadium is not alone in that regard. Chicago's old Comiskey Park was also built on a former dump. Once there was a shortstop or second baseman who spotted something odd-looking on the infield and started digging. It turned out to be an old teapot.
The circle looped object that you would see on the front car of a #7 train for a time DOES look like a toilet seat. I don't think that it would make a very good toilet seat however.
#3 West End Jeff
It's metallic, cold, wet and too small. Befitting of upstate life. Papyrus NOT included. :)
I would certainly have to agree with you that the toilet seat shaped metal object that was used on the front car of the No. 7 train would make a very cold and inadequate toilet seat.
#3 West End Jeff
Thank GOD for Depends. Don't sign out a train without 'em. :)
You never know when the urge to take care of an important need will occur.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the transmitters still stand along the ROW of the Flushing Line.
--Mark
They do. I was on a 7 that was stalled before going to Main St because we were waiting for trains to clear. I looked out the window and saw this black signal box which had the word "IDENTRA" printed on it.
Identra was only used on the Flushing line? Also, when was use of the Identra system discontinued?
I believe IDENTRA was used throughout the system, but was eventually replaced by much more modern signaling systems. As far as I know, the 7 will be having those boxes torn down in favr of the system standarsd. You can see all of that around Willets and Corona Plaza.
"I believe IDENTRA was used throughout the system, but was eventually replaced by much more modern signaling systems."
The signals on the Flushing line are at least 60 years old and are being replaced with a two-phase interlocking project.
Jeez...
So, I'm guess those new signals the MTA are putting up throughout the El are part of the project, yes? I just hope they don't make the overall speed of the trains slower...
I hope the new signal system on the Flushing line will keep train speeds on par with the Brighton Line and not the CPW portion of the 8th Ave line or the 4th Ave line in Brooklyn. The express is SOOOOOOOO SSSSSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWW on these lines.
The new signal system, when it's installed, is to be CBTC. What's being installed now is a bunch of new signals around 111th Street Interlocking.
David
Any idea when they are going to be used and the old signals will be phased out?
It was an antenna for the "IDENTRA" train describer system. Also referred to as a "toilet seat". No, REALLY!...;-)
That was the "Identra" antenna used solely on the Flushing line used to determine between local and express trains. The antennas were discontinued during the mid 90's, but the holder still remained on the trains. An intresting note is that R12, R14, R15, and possibly R17 cars also used to be equipped to carry the "Identra" loop antenna when they were assigned to the 7 train before the World's Fair R33S and R36 trains replaced them.
Working at 111 St Tower I notice the board has provisions for "Local" "Express" and "Super Express". What exactly was a "Super Express"?
Super Expresses from Times Square only stopped at Grand Central and Queensboro Plaza, if i recall correctly. They went straight to the Fair (Shea) after making those stops.
-Stef
Awful TV jingle (I can't imitate the music):
"Part of the fun of the Woooorld's Fair is the subway special that takes you there."
Two pages of photos. The second page will probably be of greater interest to most of you since that has trains, whereas the first page is just stations and snow covered tracks. All photos are in chronological order. Here is what I photographed:
96 St (B/C)
4 Av (F)
New Lots line (3)
Canarsie Line (L)
96 St (1/2/3)
And here are the photos:
BLIZZARD OF 2003 PAGE 1
BLIZZARD OF 2003 PAGE 2
Enjoy!
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
You did quite well.
Gosh dude! You didn't catch a cold from being in the middle of the blizzard?
-Stef
Thanks!
No, I didn't catch cold. I'm a seasoned veteran of blizzards and the cold in general. I grew up in NE Pennsylvania. I went to college in Upstate NY. And I mananged to be in NYC for the blizzard of 1993. I was in Milwaukee for the Blizzard of 1996, but we drove back to PA and I saw it there. It was actually a lot "warmer" on Monday than it was on Sunday. As long as I kept my hands blocked from the wind, I was able to keep them ungloved. On Sunday, wind or no wind, 10 seconds without gloves and my hands were numb.
---Brian
Colds are caused by a virus, not by the weather.
Colds spread easily in the winter because people tend to huddle together indoors. We railfans buck the trend by standing on elevated platforms instead.
But if you have a cold virus inside you, your body will be less likely to fight it off if you get seriousy chilled. A healthy person fights off most of the viruses they are exposed to.
MY COMMENT IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS EXCELLENT JOB
MAN I DID NOT KNOW IT WAS THAT BAD THERE
( reminds me when i was in detroit ) ..........
XLNT SHOOTING !!
Also it is good to see whats happening in other places besides where
you live and used to live etc........
Feeling rather dumb... I should recognize the location of photo 2154 but I can't place it... where it it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Livonia Av on the (L), looking Canarsie bound.
Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brian, Very nice work ! I made a copy of PDRM2223.JPG for my personal use.
Thanks for sharing your great pix, Brian. I mised Monday's non-field trip, but your photos help ease the disappointment.
Bob
Nice shots, except you missed a great photo op of me up to my knees in snow at the Livonia platform! :)
Great job dude. Too bad I missed all the fun.
Umm, btw, where are the Rockaway pics? ;-D j/k
Thought I'd be eating my words...
Well I was thinking relative to all the other lines, if they were open, then the Rockaway line would also be open. But as it turns out, almost all of the surface/elevated lines in Brooklyn (except the (3) and (L)) were closed because the storm was just that bad, so the Rockaway line was justified in being closed.
In its attempt to document some of the worst subway disasters in history, CNN neatly omitted the granddaddy of NYC incidents, the Malbone Street Disaster.
See for yourself:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/18/subway.timeline/index.html
And this is the organization we depend on for news?
>>>And this is the organization we depend on for news? <<<
Not me.
CNN=Certainly Not News..8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
And the 1987 fire at Kings Cross in London had nothing to do with the trains - it was caused by a cigarette end setting light to a pile of rubbish under a wooden escalator. Proves that (a) you shouldn't allow smoking in underground stations (b) you should remove accumulations of rubbish and (c) escalators shouldn't be made of wood. All of these have now been corrected on the tube. But there was nothing wrong with the running of any trains on that occasion.
It is correct that one of the victims is still unidentified 15 years later. The assumption is that he was a homeless person.
>>> And the 1987 fire at Kings Cross in London had nothing to do with the trains <<<
But it points out how dangerous a fire in the Underground is. The 1903 Paris fire was an empty train but resulted in 100 deaths. To leave the system, people have to go up to get to street level, and smoke is rising also. The standard advice in a house fire is to remain close to the floor when trying to get out. It seems like the best way to get away from a subway fire in a station would be to get down on the tracks and move away from the station. The fire will be drawing fresh air to it through the tunnels and sending the heated smoke up the stairways to the surface.
BTW, the Daegu subway website states that the trains consist of six 132 passenger cars with ATO. The ATO may explain why a second train stopped in the station where the first train was burning. Questions are beginning to be asked about the failure of all lighting in the station, with no emergency lighting, and the inability to open doors in the emergency.
Tom
It probably wasn't 'high enough in severity' for them.
97 dead, 250 serious injury and untold minor ones.
Notice I put quotes on the select thing I said.
That's horrible to me, but not enough for them...
Not to mention it happened in 1918. Who is going to remember an incident that far back? Only a very select few. I suppose that made it unnecessary to report. Union Square is another story though...
Last I checked, New York City is NOT in Atlanta, thus it doesn't exist. :)
(see also "Weather Channel" - same bunch'o'boners) :)
Damn right! :-)
Heh. If it didn't happen on Peachtree, did it REALLY happen? :)
And to put it TOTALLY AOL ... what R U WEARING?
Better be a "black teddy" or the chat room is CLOSED. (grin)
Remember, AOL is based at Columbus Circle. I guess the chat room didn't tell the reporter about Malbone.
You NYers have no room to talk, though. You guys think the world ends at the Hudson. It's all good, I KNOW there is nothing beyond I-285 :-)
>>>You guys think the world ends at the Hudson.<<<
Umm, true for city dwellers, but Selkirk lives *west* of the Hudson.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, but I was too lazy to mention that :-)
Heh. Actually, where I am, the Hudson's a TRENCH that you can leap across. But yeah, everything north of Yonkers *IS* Canada. :)
Any anything south of Atlantic City NJ (is there anything south of there) is another country.
Heh. Well, the CNN guys are WAY too busy ducking things falling off their headquarters. I like to refer to it as Boston's Hancock Tower redux. :)
Splain, Ricky. Inquring mimes HAVE to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Hancock Building in Boston has an all glass facade. For quite a few years when it was first built, the glass had this annoying habit of falling off the side of the building. Large areas had to be roped off and the facade was a nice mixture of glass and plywood.
Thanks for the explanation.
Peace
ANDEE
The University of Connecticut library had a similar problem. Took years and years to correct.
It was known as the "Plywood Palace."
Hancock Tower (also known as the "Plywood tower" had a problem with things falling off it ... CONSTANTLY. Same for AOL HQ at Colombo Circle ("just the facts, maam") shedding various pieces of itself which have closed the IND Columbus Circle station numerous times including a few where the "ceiling" has been pierced by falling stuff.
Oh wait, it's terrorism, nevermind. :)
The problem at Columbus Circle isn't with the building itself, like Hancock, but an inability to keep the wind from blowing construction materials off its upper floors.
Whoops! My mistake. :)
You NYers have no room to talk, though. You guys think the world ends at the Hudson.
It does, but it starts up again at the Delaware.
LOL, that's a good one.
My response was gonna be something like
"How can buncha Crackers know anything about New York City?"
General Sherman was not from New York, but they still have not forgiven the North for 'the late unpleasentness'.
John Rocker. 'nuff said. :)
I get *my* news from NewsWorld International (barely available on cable) and of course Al Jazeera, BREMR, CCTV (China), Deutsche Welle and numerous INDEPENDENT news sources, including CBC. The propaganda being fed HERE would make Richard Virgurie ill. CNN forgets a LOT of things, but there'll be a chat room soon and a vote on what COLOR duct tape you've decorated your apartment with. :(
American, Television, News.
You can have any two out of three.
Heh. The SAD part is that it isn't just Teevee nooze that's gone in the dumper. Even the venerable New York Times couldn't shoot a fact dead if they had their gun duct-taped to it. :(
The "deadline" used to be a once or twice a day thing for journalists. Now the pressure is "exclusive" to the detriment of FACT. Sometimes the wisdom of journalism was *NOT* to publish ... now, you're out of work if you DON'T blurt out ***FIRE*** in the theater and then cover the pileup with a satellite cam at the bottom of the stairwell.
While the lack of the Malbone wreck isn't the most egregious lapse of journalistic research on the planet, there's everyday evidence of the cluelessness of those who get paid SO poorly in the trade, that they have to LIVE on "hospitality suites" (any journalists out there wanna argue?) but WORSE, training in BS filtering is nonexistent. The JOB of a journalist is to be a PAID WITNESS. Who, what, when, where, why without editorial content ... and the PRIME DIRECTIVE of a true journalist is CYNICISM ... "what's wrong with this picture? Why is this story in my face in the FIRST place?"
Ministry of truth LOVES these rubes ...
Then there's the Ministry of Silly Walks....
And now for something completely different........
That wasn't a subway incident. The subway portion of the Brighton Line had not yet opened (it was under construction), and trains ran via Brighton/Franklin/Fulton Street El.
David
David,
That is a mere technicality. In NYC the "subway" is used as a generic term regardless of whether the rails are elevated, on open cut, embankment, or underground.
It is not our fault that those dang rebels get get their facts straight.
Correct. The map says NYC Subway Map. I always found it a bit ammusing walking UP the stairs to an elevated station saying I'm going on the SUBway. It is a bit of an backwards statement.
Chicago walks down to the underground El/L stations ...
It is not a generic term. I referrs to the rail transit system in NYC that is built to such a standard to allow heavier, all steel cars. EL's are light to almost be considered light rail lines. If you ride the EL in Chicago you'll see the differance.
Oy, why do we even bother?
It is not a mere technicality. David is right. All of the incidents on the CNN article involves REAL subways. Just because NYC includes els as subways does not make them subways. And even if it did, I don't think the BRT in 1918 considered this route a subway anyway. It was just a small tunnel to get under Empi Malbone Street. The rest of the route was an el from Park Row, over the Bklyn Bridge, el down Flatbush, el down Fulton, open cut and el to Brighton Beach & Coney. CNN was right
Et tu Jeffrey?
CNN *right?!* Well THAT would be news! :)
The derailment happened in a TUNNEL not on the elevated or open cut. That would classify as subway.
No, it wouldn't. There was no subway in the area at the time -- none that had opened yet, anyway. The section where the accident occurred, while underground, was part of the Brooklyn elevated system at the time.
David
How long does a tunnel have to be to be considered a subway?
CNN is at best half-assed. I find them to often deliberately give only one side of a story. By the way, the Malbone St. wreck occurred in a tunnel. How long does a tunnel have to be to classify it as a subway?
You all have no room to talk. Half of THIS BOARD, made up of mostly NYers, can't get their facts right on subway matters.
LOL. Ain't that the truth!
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, but most of us are wise to you cracker's little game and KNOW that MARTA is George Washington's wife. Neener-neener. :)
Rim shot!
Ssshhhh! You're blowing MARTA's cover!
David,
That is a mere technicality. In NYC the "subway" is used as a generic term regardless of whether the rails are elevated, on open cut, embankment, or underground.
It is not our fault that those dang rebels can't get their facts straight.
But the actual Malbone Street crash occurred at the entrance to a tunnel.
That'd make it a SUBWAY. Whoops, Unca contrarian Selkirk strikes again on his way to BED. :)
How can it be a subway if there is NO underground station on the whole route. (Unless you call Prospect Park half underground)
By that reasoning the Bay Ridge Line is a subway because it goes into a tunnel from Bushwick Av to Atlantic Av.
They missed a few others that were entirely underground in NYC, but I'll digress for the halibut. :)
Kevin, that is a carp-out :) (and I am getting a haddock).
Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! You and I have GOT to meet one of these days for some good old Joe Bruno-style PUN-ishment. Agggh! :)
Oh man - grab the hook!:)
Subways. Tunnels. Vy a duck?
Incredible!
Peace,
ANDEE
Of course, the accident in the DC Metro wasn't mentioned either. Back in 1982, within 30 minutes of the Air Florida crashing into the 14th Street bridge and then plummeting into the Potomac, 3 people were killed when an Orange Line train back up onto a cross-over switch and forced a car into a center abutment and, essentially, splitting it into two pieces. Of course, this happenend when the federal government shut down early due to, "gulp" a major snowstorm (as if we don't know what that's all about)
Another fatal accident not mentioned is the 1990 crash on the MFSE otside of 30th st when a motor on one of the Budd "Almond Joy" car fell out and tripped a switch which then caused one of the cars to crash against one of the abutments supporting the tunnel. It was similar to the accident outside of the Smithsonian Station on the Metro in 1982.
Except that Almond Joy 818 only suffered a nasty gash in her side and otherwise stayed in one piece; Rohr 1029 was pretty much cut in two in the Smithsonian accident.
wayne
What about that 1972 IC collision involving a stainless steel double decker and that Triplex-like 1926 heavy steel coach?
>>>3 people were killed when an Orange Line train back up onto a cross-over switch and forced a car into a center abutment and, essentially, splitting it into two pieces.<<<
Really, I did not know that. I guess it was overshadowed by the plane crash.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm sure there are dozens, if not hundreds, of wrecks where five or less were killed. It's not worth mentioning something like that unless it stands out for some reason.
But, they did mention at least 3 incidents where 5 or less were killed.
Peace,
ANDEE
The bomb explosion ones are fairly "out of the ordinary." The Tokyo one seems like a "normal" wreck, so I can't explain that one. Oh well, WMATA just couldn't make the cut. :-)
WHY are you surprised? The Ministry of Propaganda (whoops, meant "liberal press") is too focused on Saddam. Research is something STUDENTS do, not legitimate media types or the spokesfish they work for ...
Y'all need a moment of tooth here to regain your respect for the media ... after all, I'm sure the Post, Noozedaze and the NY Times (all of comparable journalistic kwalitee these days) would have reported the following. CNN *already did* ...
UNITED NATIONS - Secretary of State Colin Powell today offered
incontrovertible proof of the long-sought-after link between Saddam
Hussein's Regime and the al Qaeda Terrorist Network. In a speech before the
General Assembly, General Powell was able to show, through a series of "degrees
of separation," how Hussein was merely 6 people away from Osama bin Laden,
leader of al Qaeda. Using charts, graphs, and all the AV equipment
available to the U.N., Powell presented his case to the General Assembly and the
entire world, which was watching via television cameras. Never rambling or
tentative, a confident Sec. Powell spoke with a voice of authority,
outlining the solid connection between the leader of Iraq and the group of
terrorists deemed "the most dangerous people to Humanity" by Fox News Network. The
series of charts and graphs were presented in 14 different languages,
including Farsi, Aramaic and German. French was inexplicably left out
of the languages used. In sum, here are Gen. Powell's arguments:
1. In December of 2002, actor Sean Penn went to Baghdad, home of
Saddam Hussein.
2. Sean Penn is married to actress Robin Wright Penn.
3. Robin Wright Penn made the movie "Forrest Gump" with Tom Hanks.
4. Tom Hanks made the film "Apollo 13" with Kevin Bacon.
5. Kevin Bacon made a Visa card commercial with Indian-born character
actor Sahid Benjali.
6. Sahid Benjali used to bartend at the Lingerie Club in Hollywood. In
the early 80's he served drinks to Carmen bin Laden, a former USC student,
who is Osama's sister-in-law (estranged).
After Gen. Powell's presentation, there were several heated
discussions, with many of the delegates making angry responses, some of which were not
too flattering to the case being made.
"6 degrees? Fah!" said Ahmad Abul Gheit, the delegate from Egypt. "I
can get from Saddam to Osama in 5 people! Including Madonna!"
"5 people? I can do it in four," retorted Elinor Hammarskjold, the
Swedish delegate. "And I don't need to use Kevin Bacon! Just give me the
Farrelly Brothers and a pool boy in Bel-Air!" Where upon the entire floor of the
U.N. erupted into arguments.
Eventually the winner emerged: Tanzania delegate Mark J. Mwando was
able to get from Saddam to Osama in 2:
1. In 1983, Saddam Hussein met with then U.S. Envoy Donald Rumsfeld,
working on behalf of the Ronald Reagan-George Bush Sr. administration.
2. George Bush Sr. was formerly the head of the CIA, the organization
which armed Osama bin Laden and provided training to his followers in the
80's.
***************************************************
For coming up with the winning entry, Delegate Mwando was treated to a
party platter from the Carnegie Deli on 7th Ave. "This is wonderful," Mwando
said as he munched on a dill pickle. "I can feed half of Tanzania with
this!"
Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld could not be reached for comment.
However, director Peter Farrelly was reported as saying, "Far out."
I'll get you a case of beer for that one! ROTFLMAO! ;-)
Nearly 2 years after the first WTC bombing, on 12/21/94 we suffered a terrorist attack by a crude mad bomber who detonated a mini bomb on S/B #4 train at Fulton Street station. Car #1391 (one very tough car indeed, was involved in TWO incidents) suffered interior damaage and was repaired. No one died from the incident, but it forced the evacuation of lower Manhattan at that time. I was walking over the Brooklyn Bridge, when cops on the bridge, were asking everyone about the bombing.
The mad bomber was caught a few hours later.
Please refresh my memory. What happened at Union Square?
Here 'ya Go:
On August 29, 1991, an accident occured just north of the station, killing five people in one of the worst wrecks since the Malbone St. Disaster of 1918. The train operator, Robert Ray, had been overshooting platforms on the entire run. At 14th Street the train was to be shifted to the local track due to repairs. He had been running the train at 40 MPH in a 10 MPH zone and took the switch so fast that only the front of the first car made the crossover. The third and fourth cars ended up perpendicular to the tracks, having sheared off support columns and split in half. The line suffered heavy damage and service was disrupted for six days as transit workers toiled around the clock to clean up the wreckage. The entire infrastructure, including signals, the switches, track, roadbed, cabling, and 23 support columns needed to be replaced. The motorman Ray was sentenced to 15 years in prison for the worst subway accident since 1928. (14th St. Wreck photo courtesy New York City Transit)
The wreck occurred between 18th Street and Union Square on the downtown side at the entry to a former pocket track. Union Square and 72nd Street on the IRT West Side line had extra tracks on the approach to the station. These were between the incoming local and express track and were one old IRT train length long. The idea was to have a 'stacking' track where a train could be held momentarily until the platform cleared for it to enter the station. The track here and at 72nd Street were rendered useless when train lengths grew beyond their capacity. When the damage from the 1991 wreck was repaired the crossing was not made more gentle even though the stacking track here was removed.
Coutesy of David Pirrman.
Peace,
ANDEE
One small correction: this occurred at night, when the 4 normally runs local. (It even ran local in 1991 -- the 6 didn't run south of 125th.) It had been running express north of 14th due to a GO and was switching back to its regular (local) route.
All of the disasters listed are fires/explosions, not mechanical calamities.
Except for that 2000 one in Tokyo, that one doesn't fit.
Given that on Feb. 1 they posted a graphic on the bottom of the screen saying the Space Shuttle Columbia was traveling 18 times the speed of light, when it exploded, I hope you weren't expecting too much out of CNN's researchers on this one.
Odds are they did a Nexus or Google search, didn't find Malbone St. among the Top 10 hits on Page 1 under "subway disasters" and just posted the results that were the easiest to find.
Oh, you didn't know that NASA had developed warp drive and had installed it on the Columbia? I guess CNN spilled the beans on that one. ;)
That NASA was using Warp drive is no secret, but the fact that they got it stable at Warp 18 was! I mean, even Scotty was hard pressed to get the Enterprise to Warp 9.
--Mark
"I mean, even Scotty was hard pressed to get the Enterprise to Warp 9."
Now Jim, that is illogical because it's Mr. Sulu who performs that function.
BUZZ!!! Wrong.
Sulu is the helmsman (steers the ship). Checkov is the Navigator (sets the course). Scotty is the Chief Enginer, and in charge of the department that maintains and regulates the warp drives.
Kirk may call for Warp 9, but Engineering runs the engines that drive the Enterprise.
And, if the Enterprise has warp drive, why does the sound of the warp drive sound like an Lo-V winding up?
Seems like the Columbia musta been going back in time, then, as this is what things supposedly do when they go faster than light. Either that or some dimwit had his hands on the warp drive ;)
Given that on Feb. 1 they posted a graphic on the bottom of the screen saying the Space Shuttle Columbia was traveling 18 times the speed of light
LOL! 18 times the speen of light! If they were in Texas destined for Florida, were they planning to circle the earth a few hundred times before slowing down to land in Florida??
And no wonder there's a 'Dumbing down of America'....
London's Waterloo and City Line re-opened on Tuesday afternoon at 1.30 p.m. Its four trains (I thought it was five) have all been modified to cure the fault that caused the Chancery Lane derailment.
Latest on the Central Line on www.thetube.com is that it will reopen gradually and get extended as more modified trains become available. Initial operation will be Woodford to Bethnal Green. Bethnal Green seems an odd terminal since there are no transfers there, but it's a question of places where trains can be turned. At least the long-suffering passengers will be able to get to Stratford to change to the Jubilee Line and to Mile End for the District Line.
As more trains come on stream they will extend westwards to Liverpool Street and then station-by-station to Marble Arch. (That begs the question of how they might turn trains at some of the stations, but that's what they are saying.)
Seems that the required modifications of the 1992 stock were more extensive than they were letting on.
But still no information about what the modifications are!
Seems that the required modifications of the 1992 stock were more extensive than they were letting on.
Maybe some armrests and a more interesting moquette pattern? :o>
wayne
I can’t remember whether the 1992 tube stock has arm rests, but there were tube trains with armrests when I was regularly riding the Central Line in the late 1970s, early 1980s.
And that’s still one thing that LU has that NYCT doesn’t—or at least hasn’t had for a while: plush, sprung seating! Not so dowdy after all! (© 2003 Randy Kennedy!)
Source: NY Daily News
Peace,
ANDEE
Gotta love it, no mention of folks waiting for a Q, N or Dubya. No WONDER the deputy junior adminiswigs were looking for blood from the hourlies who couldn't shape up or afford the limo ride to work. :(
This may have been addressed here aleady and if so please forgive the repeated query but...
On one of the news channels last night they showed a computer simulation of the fire. It showed the first train pulling into the station with a couple of cars engulfed. Within 3 minutes all cars were on fire, fire lapping from all windows. They then said that the train in the other direction pulled in, stopped directly next to the burning train, and it quickly caught fire.
Question, why on earth would the TO have pulled into the station or stopped at all. If he were going too fast to stop before the station shouldn't he have sped up so the train would have possibly gone past the fire before the brakes automatically engaged?
What should he have done and what would you have done in that situation?
According to another posting, the train was operated automatically. No T/O.
To make matters worse (according to the newspapers) an automatic fire detection system cut power to both trains so even if there was a T/O in the 2nd train, he would not have been able to move the train.
This is all very interesting, but my problem with the whole thing is how in the world can a gallon of paint thinner start such a fire in the first place. Sure the paint thinner will burn, sure a few people who were spalshed will have burns, or maybe even be burned, but why in the world should there be so much fuel about that such a conflagration ensue?
No matter how rapidly a car might be burning, how in the world can the flames jump to another car. What are these cars made out of anyway? Paper? Cardboard? Magniesium?
OK, I can see clothing catching on fire, but clothing does not burn all that rapidly compared to the accelerant which itself will burn off rapidly.
What aspects does the air handling equipment play. Do they add extra Oxygen to their atmosphere such as they do in airliners? Why should it Jump to an adjacent train. Are not the windows closed? If the doors are open, it has then entire platform to jump across. How can it do this? What kind of air handling is there on the platforms.
No point in waiting for the NTSB to investigate this one, we will have to do our own speculating.
Elias
The car's seats were made of a flammable material.
--Mark
Ah, the wonderful savings of ZPTO.
Its ATO not ZPTO.
I read somewhere that the trains were driverless.
They are, ATO just like Washington Metro, an employee, call em T/O or C/R or whatever is on board though.
OK, but what would YOU do if you were a T/O in that situation. You're approaching a station at a speed that is too fast for you to stop before the station, you see the train stopped next to where you should stop is ablaze. Do you punch the accelerator? Seems like a no win to me.
I wonder what will they do with that station now. Close it for sentimental reasons? I mean, the system is plagued with problems--Taegu has had a subway only since 1997, but already three people had been killed during construction of an extension in 2000. In addition, the system has enough trains to carry 610,000 people a day, but so far only 142,000 are. I hope it gets better when the second line is opened. Subwaywise, though, South Korea is a wonderful country: Four systems already in existence (Seoul, Pusan, Taegu, Inchon) and one a-building (Gwangju). Not bad for such a small nation!
>>> Not bad for such a small nation! <<<
Not good either if they built the subway with so little regard for the possibility of fire.
Tom
Circa 9:15 a.m. "A" service resumed to Rockaway Park, with bus service from B.90th/Holland to Far Rockaway.
So then I assume the shuttle is suspended while the A takes on its route?
There is limited shuttle service (was limited shuttle service when not running to Rock Park).
I mean shuttle train service not shuttle bus service now.
ORANGE is the official color - if you have plain old gray, maybe you can do it on eBay ... TA will be issued yellow. But HEY! CNN sez forget all THAT noise, there's a dog trapped on an ice flow in Kearney, NJ, let's CUT AWAY!
Homeland Security couldn't POSSIBLY be all that important, they're OUT of duct tape in Atlanta. Geez ... well, so much for the paranoid, let's all join the French and ride some subways! :)
Oh, story over, they wrassled the lost dog into a boat. Now what?
Ah, back in the old days, you at least got some BREAD with your cirus. :(
the provision of bread and other foodstuffs has been discontinued as a courtesy to adm and its allied cartel members in order to reduce competition (oops, )
AND THERE is no food or drink allowed in METRO!
Not to worry, while we're wrapping ourselves in swaddling clothes of duct tape and plastic, our leaders are redoing the reichsbunkers to accomodate ALL of stature ...
Bunker readied to fight new war
I'm beginning to wonder if I really *WANT* to be a "survivor" ... everybody, time to drink the koolaid, we're all gonna die! Sheesh.
LOVED the last comment, by the way, about the "copper wire" ... here in NEW YORK STATE, the EMPIRE state, there are a TOTAL of 387 people STATEWIDE (most in NYC) who HAVE DSL ... yep - Kabul, Afghanistan has more than ten times as much DSL as New York. Ah, to be blown back to the stone age where Al Qaeda gets DSL, but we don't. :(
What is it with Verizon not offering DSL? I can’t understand why they don’t push broadband Internet as the best thing since sliced bread! There’s a killing to be made.
I live in Plainsboro, and get frequent mail adverts extolling the virtue of DSL. Which is wonderful except…not offered to my phone.
Which part of “no brainer” can’t they appreciate?!
John
Easy ... the state collects MILLIONS in "rural subsidies" and if Verizon doesn't have to SPEND it in "construction" then there's all the more cash to give politicos. It'd be a scandal of the Millenium if anybody actually CARED. Only reason I found out that there's only 387 with DSL at ALL in New York is that the PSC was asked to look into it (at the request of a Senator I've been dissing here) and one of the consultants LEAKED. :)
But rest assured, the taxpayers and phone ratepayers subsidized each of those lucky souls to the tune of $2 million a piece. OH, if only we had prosecution for corprate criminals ... oh wait ... could that be Usama hiding behind that woodpile?
I *still* can't believe the Russkies were such morons that we need to fear the diaperheads, but hell ... looks like we'se overwhelmed ... Just can't get over all this. Meanwhile, back at the wirebarn ... But DID find it interesting that now that we're worried about a bunch of lunatics, even Homeland DEFENSE can't get no DSL. Gotta LOVE it. Means that all this hoohah is just hoohah, or SEMO could get DSL. But even THEY can't. Change-NY is Verizon, Business Council is Verizon, Darth Vader is their spokesfish. Oh ... I get it. :)
Doesn't the local cable provider offer something like Optimum on line or Road Runner up there? If not, why?
Peace,
ANDEE
"Road Runner will be coming to your area in 2005" ... and besides that, I might as well put everybody's credit card numbers on our web server for where THEIR security is at. :)
This is UPSTATE. 24k baud DIALUP is about as good as it gets - if the wind's blowing in the right direction. We're "TECH VALLEY" and you should consider yourself lucky if you get a DIAL TONE. Seriously, the modem on the CELL PHONE runs twice as fast as on the land line. :(
Welcome to Brunoland, park your internet at the door. GHOD, how I wish we'd had the sense to move to AFGHANISTAN years ago where you can *GET* DSL ...
That is truly disgusting, and I thought The Bronx had it bad.
Peace,
ANDEE
Appalachia NEVER had it against upstate New York. No joke, bro ... I can show you HUNDREDS of people who do NOT have "indoor plumbing" and I wouldn't have to drive you more than five miles to get there. THIS is BRUNOLAND ... he looted US first. Then we ran out of cash.
Can you BELIEVE it though? NEW YORK CITY! And the REST of the state, and only THREE HUNDRED and FREAKING EIGHTY-SEVEN damned DSL lines in the state! And yet Verizon's collected nearly a BILLION dollars to pay for all that construction. And we though Boss Tweed and Mayor Hylan were a bit ... umm ... piggy ... woof. (as Mel Brooks would say)
but yeah, ain't them some bananas? And KABUL is a center of technology compared to "Tech Valley" ... NYPSC should have the report back to the legislature in a couple of weeks where they will NUMBER it for the media. Unless of course someone drops a lighter on a platform somewhere by accident and it gets wiped out of the papers.
WHY did I choose to setup business in New York State where I spend more time downloading my damned email than making money? :(
(only THREE HUNDRED and FREAKING EIGHTY-SEVEN damned DSL lines in the state)
You're less amusing when you make things up totally.
There's plenty of DSL lines in NYC. It's readily available and it works. It's not nice of Verizon not to deploy in Albany, but NYC is still part of NYS last I looked.
I saw the reports ... 387. No joke, no bull, it'll be in the Public Service Commission's finding. Facts derived from "in service connections" as of two weeks ago, reported as DOCUMENT by Verizon. Seriously, NO JOKE. :(
Maybe not a joke, but simply not true. If you heard this from a friend, he forgot the comma and the 3 0s at the end.
Verizon'd annual reports list far more than a million DSL lines total, and they aren't all in states other than NY.
387 in New York ... requested and OFFICIALLY FILED. Surprise the QWAP out of everybody involved. I *saw* the report. If there were more than 387 (under penalty of perjury) I would expect that Verizon would have provided another number.
But cheer up, the CABLE industry has more than a million high speed connections hooked up and whizzing in NYS ... but for VERIZON, it's 387. That's STRICTLY DSL, doesn't include T1's, fractional T1's and DS3's which we can't have EITHER up here ... but for DSL, that numner *is* what they signed a John Hancock to ...
Check back, Selkirk's facts may be way ahead of time, but they turn out right every time once the BS stops. :(
It's definitely an error. That "consultant" of yours fed you with bovine excrement, and you swallowed it.
But let's not let facts get in the way of a political rant, shall we? As the Gipper himself said: "there you go again."
First of all, Verizoff is not the only entity that's selling consumer DSL circuits in New York. Two years ago my ISP, speakeasy.net, spent a six-figure amount installing their NYC-local DSL Point-of-Presence, with a DS3 out to Internap. Nobody is going to spend this money for a measly hundred customers.
Probably the 380+ number is from three or four years ago; which would be a month or two after retail DSL became available in NY. That, I can believe. Up until two years ago, speakeasy.net's NYC customers were backhauled over Covad's ATM network for six thousand miles, all across the fruited plain to speakeasy.net HQ in Washington (state, that is). Then, the following circuits were installed:
[whois.arin.net]
CustName: Speakeasy Network DSL
Address: 25 Broadway, 5th Floor
City: New York
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 10004
Country: US
RegDate: 2001-03-01
Updated: 2001-03-01
NetRange: 64.81.134.0 - 64.81.135.255
CIDR: 64.81.134.0/23
NetName: SPEK-DSL-NYC-BR5-0
CustName: Speakeasy Network DSL
Address: 25 Broadway, 5th Floor
City: New York
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 10004
Country: US
RegDate: 2001-03-01
Updated: 2001-03-01
NetRange: 64.81.192.0 - 64.81.215.255
CIDR: 64.81.192.0/20, 64.81.208.0/21
NetName: SPEK-DSL-NYC-BR6-0
CustName: Speakeasy Network DSL
Address: 25 Broadway, 5th Floor
City: New York
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 10004
Country: US
RegDate: 2001-03-01
Updated: 2001-03-01
NetRange: 216.27.134.0 - 216.27.149.255
CIDR: 216.27.134.0/23, 216.27.136.0/21, 216.27.144.0/22, 216.27.148.0/23
NetName: SPEK-DSL-NYC-BR7-0
CustName: Speakeasy Network DSL
Address: 25 Broadway
City: New York
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 10004
Country: US
RegDate: 2001-07-12
Updated: 2001-07-12
NetRange: 66.92.96.0 - 66.92.111.255
CIDR: 66.92.96.0/20
NetName: SPEK-DSL-NYC-BR8-0
Now, those who prefer to actually research what they are talking about, instead of yapping their political pieholes, would know that IP addresses do not grow on trees any more. To get any IP address allocation out of ARIN a provider must provide a paper trail showing that they expect to be using at least half of the assigned IP address ranges within a year. Some simple calculations show that the above allocations add up to almost fifteen thousand IP addresses.
The highest-tiered speakeasy.net service level provides for four IP addresses per subscriber; but very few people cough up that much dough. Most folks have one or two IP addresses, that's all. No matter how you slice or dice it, one can already document five or six thousand DSL subscribers in NY from a single DSL provider alone. Speakeasy mostly resells covad.net circuits, so anywhere Speakeasy can provision service any other covad.net reseller can also sell DSL service, so the actual number of DSL subscribers in NY is much, much higher.
Nobody is going to burn up fifteen thousand IP addresses just to service a couple of hundred customers. Get a clue.
Furthermore, as I mentioned in the beginning: Redback-DSLAMs hardware is designed to handle tens of thousands of DSL customer circuits, and SE's NYC POP is only used to handle NY DSL circuits. SE has about 150,000 DSL subscribers nationwide, supported by eleven national DSL POPs, like the one in NYC. Maybe they route DSL circuits from northern NJ into the NYC POP, but there can't be that many of those. When the NYC POP went up, they switched off the backhaul that carried my circuit to Washington, and switched me to the NYC POP.
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh... Just yesterday my significant-other was yapping with her girlfriend; who just bought a condo in Queens, and she was flapping her gums about how her entire apartment building is wired up for DSL, which is included in everyone's maintenance fee...
But, then again, why let some troublesome facts get in the way, when one wants to mouth off a clueless political rant?
(yawn) ... ask your legislator for the report, it'll be officially released by the Department of Public Service, Agency Building 3, Albany NY 12223 in a couple of weeks. Read for yourself.
... and when it ends up not stating what you thought it was going to state, it must be because Pataki and Bruno sent their sekret operatives to intercept and covertly alter the report.
Don't forget: the tin foil is worn shiny-side out.
mrsam welcome to my killfile pus brain
I would think both of you can be right. I would guess that Speakeasy is actively cherry-picking the easy parts of NYS. I tried to see if I could get Speakeasy service in my apartment (from this website), and was directed to…(Drum roll)…a dial-up service, with a promised rebate when service does eventually arrive.
Since it’s going to be Verizon’s wires for the last mile anyway, we still need them to get the infrastructure improved (concentrators in the connection boxes to solve the 600' limitations etc, etc so that we can see some genuine competition here.
I would guess that Selkirk will suffer the same fate. And his gripe is valid: Verizon has been extorting collecting money to provide the necessary infrastructure without actually doing anything. And, since Selkirk’s business depends entirely on Internet access, don’t you think he would be at the head of the line if anything were available at a decent price in North Podunk the Albany area?
John
Verizon 1Q2002 quarterly statement, http://investor.verizon.com/financial/quarterly/VZ/1Q2002/1Q02Bulletin.pdf
Verizon has 1.35 million DSL customers.
Can you really claim with a straight face that only 387 of them are in New York?
Ask the politicians. I merely mentioned the "official" numbers, wait for the movie, it'll be out soon.
I personally know of some 30 Verizon DSL connections in NYC, I must be in with very special crowd.
BTW there are areas in Manhattan, where Verizon is the only way to get high speed Internet connection (Hudson St area) so I guess that 300+ number is extremely unbelievable.
Arti
It must be yet another Pataki-Bruno conspiracy. Yeah, that's the ticket...
You know, yesterday the Chicken Noodle News network reported that the libs are trying to launch their own leftist-oriented radio network.
I'm sure they're looking for talk show hosts. That guy should apply. He definitely meets the minimum requirements...
And I'm sure we'll have to name it the JOE BRUNO bunker!
AMAZINGLY, Joey's not invited. Joey's got a FAR nicer one of his OWN (No goobernatorial types allowed) out in Brunswick (Troylet) ...
That's why I'm saying ... if THESE creeps are going to survive Armageddon (after all, the cold war was puthy chit, Al Qaeda's the REAL deathmatch) I'm REALLY not so sure I want to be around after the nuclear holocaust we're being promised here. At least with the RUSSKIES, you had a chance. THESE guys? Nah. Concierge? Please tally up my bill, I'm checking out. :(
But yeah, all we have to fear is ourselves - screw that FDR noise.
But HEY! CNN sez forget all THAT noise, there's a dog trapped on an ice flow in Kearney, NJ, let's CUT AWAY!
HEY! I was worried about that pooch.
Puppy and TV cameras are alive, well and recharged. Not necessarily in that order, though. :)
On news 12 now.
HEY - HEY this is not BUStalk. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Do not know if bus driver was Muslim or not.
NOW you did it ... CNN Breaking News ... it's TERRORISM! :-\
From Snooze12s website ("As boring as boring news gets"):
Breaking News
A bus plowed into the Hempstead Bus Terminal at about 1:50 this afternoon. The front of the bus is inside the terminal. Nassau police say seven people are injured from the accident. The bus terminal has been evacuated; ambulance and fire personnel are on the scene. Tune in to News 12 Long Island for the latest on the Hempstead bus accident.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not available up here, but I'll take your word for it. Nothing on CNN, Deutsche-Welle hasn't covered it yet, but word is Tom Ridge will probably come out from behind the blue curtain with a website that'll tell us how to wrap ourselves in styrofoam to survive motorcoach terrorists. My sympathies to all concerned, but I wonder how many out there in teeveeland had to make a dash for a change of ... ummm ... "undergarments?"
Don't mind me, I've just had a snootful of this duct-tape stuff, the Korean disaster being a "terrorist event" ... the poor bastards who died in that Chicago disco disaster being DUMB enough to think it was terrorists THERE spraying the mace, and so on and so on and so on. I'm EXTREMELY disappointed in the human race lately ... hopefully I'll get over it, but MAN ... useless gas masks, duct tape, plastic sheeting and everybody exchanging cell phone numbers like they'll really work NEXT time just like they did for folks in lower Manhattan.
That, and the constant fear of waking up ... has no one bothered to study the COLD WAR? That was some SERIOUS stuff ... THOUSANDS of nukes taking out the USA and the REST of the world in nanoseconds. Can ANYONE *seriously* compare this to that? Oh yeah ... CNN, Fox, NBC Nightly Nukes. Nevermind. :(
>>>...... the poor bastards who died in that Chicago disco disaster being DUMB enough to think it was terrorists THERE spraying the mace...<<<
They really thought that? I know that incident has been
overshadowed by other *snooze* events, but really.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, no joke ... heard it on CNN, *must* be true. Seriously, CBC reported the same, and they actually make phone calls before putting things on the air. Survivors DID say that they thought it was a terrorist attack when the security guards decided to just empty their gas in everybody's faces, that's what CAUSED the stampede. :(
Who needs Al Qaeda when we've got ... Uh-Mericans? :(
Just a wild guess, but I'd think packed snow on pavement would have more to do with this accident than terrorism :).
As a side note, the front page story in this past Sunday's Providence Journal (just to show nothing newsworthy happened this week) was a followup with the Sikh who was pulled off an Amtrak train in Providence on 9/12/01, arrested, and roughed up a bit, for the crime of wearing a beard and a turban. He's now on the "We're not terrorists; please stop beating us up" lecture circuit.
I'm surprised John Ashcroft hasn't yet announced that the CIA has received intelligence that we didn't get snow at all, but 26 inches of anthrax direct from Iraq.
Nah, he's too busy looking for calico cats and protecting himself from the *ULTIMATE* terror, "menstruating wimmen." :)
Nah, he's [Ashcroft] too busy looking for calico cats and protecting himself from the *ULTIMATE* terror, "menstruating wimmen." :)
Okay, I know about Ashcroft and his fear of calico cats, but please do enlighten us about the rest of your statement.
I have a CALICO CAT. Does that mean I am sentenced to death?
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a CALICO CAT. Does that mean I am sentenced to death?
Yes.
- John Ashcroft
And now we know how to shut John Ascroft down once and for all - Just put a calico cat (or kitten) every place he goes. Should turn him into a puddle of jelly in no time flat.
Kindly make sure the entire leadership of the Democatic Party is apprised of this.
LOL...
Peace,
ANDEE
Wanted to show a link, but like the calico cat number, it's VANISHED from the internet. Went to a story published by Molly Ivans about a year ago (ALSO gone) about a day on the plane with reporters and John Ashcroft where female members of the media were put off the plane because they were at ... "that time of the month" and Ashcroft wigged out. They had to fly on another plane owing to their "condition." But just spent the last half hour looking for it, and nothing.
Hopefully SOMEONE else can confirm that they've caught it too, otherwise Ashcroft is a true friend to wimmenfolk and I'm wrong. :(
Ashcroft and calico cats:
Snopes.com
Ah well ... the calico musta been menstruating. :)
I hate to say it....I've been volunteering at a cat adoption agency for about five years now, and calico cats seem to be the bitchiest, moodiest felines we deal with.
We had one 3-year old pair of cats come in about four years ago -- a calico and her orange/white brother. The calico was a complete bitch, would hiss and growl and anything that moved including her shadow. She and her brother got adopted twice and brought back twice. The male cat and I got along great, so I took him home for a week to see what he was like, and his personality changed completely from a totally scared, fraidy cat into the sweetest cat around, once he was away from his bitchy calico sister.
I've had that male cat for three and a half years now!! He was so nice the first week I brought him home that I formally adopted him. I don't ever remember what happened to his calico sister; I think she got traded off to another adoption agency.
I think I'm with Ashcroft on calico cats.....
Went to a story published by Molly Ivans about a year ago (ALSO gone) about a day on the plane with reporters and John Ashcroft where female members of the media were put off the plane because they were at ... "that time of the month" and Ashcroft wigged out. They had to fly on another plane owing to their "condition."
My Urban Legend Detector is on full Orange Alert. It's an amusing story, but it fails to address just how Ashcroft knew that the women members of the media were, uh, that way. It's not as if they wore signs around their neck or anything.
I think wearing a beard should be a crime...haven't you seen Selkirk and Anon_E_mouse....round 'em up, I say! :)
Salami, Salami, Bologna ... Maha! (aha?) :)
Hi Selkirk TMO Sounds like Curly in The Three Stooges.
Nyuk nyuk nyuk ... when you want true wisdom, 3 stooges is about as close as ya gets these days. :)
You mean wisdumb...Nyuk, Nyuk Nyuk!
Why SOITENLY ... HEY MOE! Get the duct tape! :)
QUACK! QUACK!
Let's try and keep heypaul out of this...
I think wearing a beard should be a crime...haven't you seen Selkirk and Anon_E_mouse....round 'em up, I say! :)
I agree completely. This suspicious-looking shifty-eyed terrorist is photographing Amtrak from one of my favorite haunts, the South Street bridge in Philly.
This suspicious-looking shifty-eyed terrorist is photographing Amtrak from one of my favorite haunts, the South Street bridge in Philly.
You're especially suspect now; we've been told to be wary of anyone who looks like they've recently shaved off a beard. Ashcroft hasn't given any indication how many decades define "recently." :)
LOL!!!
Gawd, put a turban on that guy.....he'd look like Osama!! :-)
If you want something that has a measurable probability of being a terrorist event have a look at the plane that crashed in Iran carrying 270 passengers, since the majority of them were the elite Revolutionary Guards.
Mind you, the aircraft was an Antonov. They don’t exactly have a wonderful safety record…
I’ll just go and duct tape my new pair of Depends on and wrap it with cling film…
Don't forget to activate the "stay dry" wings of them pantalones, there. :)
Wouldn't want any unexpected puddles in the subway - after all, this ain't air conditioning season and can't blame it on the seeing eye dog.
If you want something that has a measurable probability of being a terrorist event have a look at the plane that crashed in Iran carrying 270 passengers, since the majority of them were the elite Revolutionary Guards.
It's a reasonable assumption that not too many people in the United States are sad over this event.
Hmm well at least we know that the USS Vincennes wasn't anywhere around there, it's already got one black mark on it's record in the persian gulf.
It'd odd that they simply say "Antinov Airliner" and leave it at that. That really could be anything from a turboprop An-26 to the monsterous An-124. Perhaps those sneaky Iranians were just not saying to drive people with enough time on their hands to worry about this kind of thing nuts.
Oh those devious axis of evil members!
This time, I think it was an AXLE of evil.
Michael
Washington,DC
Since you said the bus plowed into the Terminal, it must have been on snow removal duty.
You're a sick man, Rico,,,,,LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm NOT Rico.
You mean that fancy new terminal that MJTA just cut the ribbon on not too long ago, integrated with the LIRR?
Terrorism? More likely bad breaks in icy, wet weather.
Nah ... somewhere on that bus was a towel ... :)
To go with you beard no doubt!
Geez ... SANTA had a beard. And I'll BET he ain't vacationing in eastern Cuba either. If I thought I had a CHANCE of being invited to Guantanamo or other Carribean resort (KABUL would be an improvement over upstate NY right now) I'd BE there. :)
Having a beard DOES have its downside, though ... attracts media ... bad ...
A journalist assigned to the Jerusalem bureau has an apartment overlooking
the Western Wall. Every day when she looks out, she sees an old bearded
Jewish man praying vigorously. Certain he would be a good interview
subject.
The journalist goes down to the Wall, and introduces herself to the old
man.
She asks, "You come every day to the Wall. Sir, how long have you done
that
and what are you praying for?"
The old man replies, "I have come here to pray every day for 25 years.
In the morning I pray for world peace and for the brotherhood of man. I
go home have a cup of tea, and I come back and pray for the eradication of
illness and disease from the earth. And very, very important, I pray for
peace and understanding between the Israelis and Palestinians."
The journalist is impressed. "How does it make you feel to come here
every day for 25 years and pray for these wonderful things?" she asks.
The old man replies, calmly, "Like I'm talking to a phucking wall."
RIM SHOT!!!
All joking aside, Steve Hoskins a poster on Bus-talk and a bus driver in California, thinks it could be a broken throttle spring. He said that thing happens frequently on that model bus and transmission.
While we're making jokes about beards (are you listening Dougie?) etc, let's not forget that tragically a young mother has lost one leg and may lose the second. Sadly for her it will be a major life style change for her and her family.
Should bring this into Bustalk.
See http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-libus0220,0,3191836.story?coll=ny%2Dlinews%2Dheadlines
Speculation is that it was a malfunction -- roadway looks clear behind the bus.
CG
Yo Dis ain't BusTalk.
........
I was going to school this morning around 7:45am and I rode the F to school. Train got held up at Church Av for 5 minutes, a train parked on the n/b express track, crowds onn the train got pretty big so I think trains weren't at 100% yet. I get off at Jay St to catch the A or C and Manhattan bound F's were coming in ONE AFTER ANOTHER and I waited there only 5 minutes before the C came. This train was a CRUSH load and I was going to High St/Brooklyn Bridge.
Did anyone else go through this anywhere else or on these lines?
Umm, It's called a normal day on the NY subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was even below a "normal" day on the subways, shocking huh...NOT ;-).
What was suprising was there was no skip stop service on the 1/9 today.I had just missed a 1 train this morning and thought I'd have to wait 10mins for the next one,instead as I brought my unlimited card another 1 showed up and by 96St,all I saw were 1 trains,bout 4 or 5 of them.This was before 9:30 when the last 9 is supposed to leave 242St.I wonder why there wasn't any 1/9 but I sure as hell was happy.
I saw an uptown train at 96th this afternoon (around 3:45) marked as a 9. I was waiting for a downtown train so I don't know if it actually ran skip-stop.
Okay, please excuse me for being new at this, but why does a subway train have to switch from AC to DC and from DC to AC when slowing down and speeding up (respectively)?
but why does a subway train have to switch from AC to DC and from DC to AC when slowing down and speeding up (respectively)?
It doesn't.
Most subway cars run on 600v DC. Period.
The controler does have three positions.... Switching, Series, and Multiple. (yes?) It has to do with how the motors are wired (more or less) In the slower speeds the motors are wired in series, and move slower but with greater power. At the higher settings they are wired in parallel, and will run faster, but they wouldn't have the poser to start the train.
Of course the newer trains, the Motorman can crank it all they way up, but the train goes through the steps by itself automatically.
So kinda like the gears on your car.
Newer Subway trains (and locomotives too) use AC motors, but the third rail is still DC, the train converts it electronically. It has different characteristics, and so those with more expertiese on this will give you more details.
Elias
MetroNorth Commuter Railroad's New Haven line chagnes from 3rd rail 750VDC to overhead AC catenery so does the Blue Line of the Boston "T".
MNRR does it on the fly just before (go to New Haven) Pelham Station. The only way you can tell if it happens normaly is the HVAC cuts out for a little bit (blowers on the AC) then restarts.
I think a better question is, why were the subways built with DC power to start with? A good question now that AC traction motors are being used, and we have the cost of a converter.
Also, when maintenance crews draw third rail power for a bank of lights, are those lights different than those that run on AC?
«Also, when maintenance crews draw third rail power for a bank of lights, are those lights different than those that run on AC?»
Incandesent lights don't differenciate between AC or DC.
Arti
Thomas Edison invented the terminology 'incandescent lighting.'
Five bulb 'bank of lights' uses 130 volt railway bulbs. Now, if you were really old, you knew that TA bulbs were 'reverse Edison thread' because it was discovered 'cheap-asses' unscrewed them for home use.
Today, bulbs scew in clockwise. NYCTA 130 VDC bulbs are not polarity dependent....they work on AC circuits too. Problem is that 115 VAC home circuits are missing a few volts....they are 'brownish lights.' You know when you enter the home of a TA employee....
You know you're a TA employee when you recognise the Hindu prayer cards on the cash register in 7-11.
I'm missing a few volts and screws too. CI Peter
Bottom line resistive loads are not dependent on frequency nor polarity of the feeding current, only voltage.
Arti
Still... The DC current is 'genteler' on the filiments that AC. Witness LISTEN Incandescent bulbs on an AC circuit.... you can hear them before they fail.
Elias
That's an interesting question. Of all the studies on bulb
life I've read, bulbs running on the same RMS voltage don't
care about AC vs DC. The counterargument would be that
a) AC causes rapid thermal cycling. I think the thermal inertia
of the average filmanent is such that the thermal time constant
far exceeds the cycle time. b) although the RMS current for
say a 120VAC and 120VDC bulb is the same, the peak current,
and thus the peak current density, is higher for AC.
Oooooooooohhhhh!!!! Railroad bulbs are specified for 130 VDC. They can work on 120 VAC. When I inspected 10 KW radio transmitters, the filaments (another Edison term) ran DC. Over a period of time, deposits would be settled on the filaments and the transmitter had a switch to reverse the polarity to be used based upon the running time clock and the maintainance schedule. Sure the final tube would run just fine with regulated AC but the linearity of the output was always better with DC and IMD was improved. Now I change out oil and brakes.
WB2SGT Extra Class runs vintage Yaesu FT101B with FL1200B cooking 572Bs/TTL160s at the kilowatt level in AM equivalent. Beautiful glow...nice, warm and toasty. CI peter
If you want to know all about the history of power on the subway, you should read Here
Elias
Larry, the 5-bulb cluster lights use five 120V (actually
rated at 130V) bulbs. Contrary to what Arti posted,
they are NOT the same as bulbs used with 120V AC. They
have to be "Street Railway" bulbs. The reason, which has
been discussed numerous times on this board in various
contexts, is that the filament and mounting are designed
so that when the light "blows", the arc is extinguished.
Although there are only 120 volts across the bulb when it
is working, as soon as it becomes an open-circuit, the full
600V potential is across the terminals. Ordinary bulbs
will continue to arc across the remains of the filament,
generating intense heat and causing the bulb to explode.
As for AC vs DC power, that's a long and complicated story.
The short answer is that single-phase AC traction didn't
make any economic sense for rapid transit lines using
conventional technology.
A switch to AC in the third rail would not gain much except
the elimination of the substation rectifiers. You'd still need
all of the same inverters on the cars to run the AC traction
motors, since you have to adjust the frequency and phase
of the motor drive. You'd also completely screw up the signal
department which would have to switch over to 100cy or audio
frequency track circuits.
Who needs track circuits, we got da cupyooters!
«Although there are only 120 volts across the bulb when it
is working, as soon as it becomes an open-circuit, the full
600V potential is across the terminals. Ordinary bulbs
will continue to arc across the remains of the filament,
generating intense heat and causing the bulb to explode.»
This has nothing to do with AC or DC but voltage.
Arti
Actually it has a little to do with DC. The extinguishing
distance for a DC arc is longer than AC because AC commutes
every cycle. If the frequency is low enough, the zero crossing
completely extinguishes the arc. At 60cy, the hot gas in the
arc path hasn't had time to cool down, so on the flip side of
the cycle, re-ignition occurs. However, the gas has cooled somewhat,
so the striking distance is much lower. Still,
one would probably still have a problem with
a 120VAC bulb in a 600VAC circuit, but that's a largely academic
problem since such arrangements tend not to arise in practice.
I agree that AC vs DC makes no difference in terms of light
output or bulb life.
Point is that the bulbs used in 600V clusters are not the same
as bulbs for use at 120VAC line voltage. Street railway bulbs
are specifically designed for 600VDC service.
Street railway bulbs are designed for 130 VDC service. When you have to get your hands into a Redbird head out display, you discover the wonders of five series bulbs in a 600 VDC circuit. So I get called into a mid pair...head out lighting is inoperative. Two hours later, I figure it all out. If one bulb blows, the series string is dark. highly unlikely that more than one bulb will blow. T/Os swapped three bad lightbulbs over a period of time with the car I had 'troubles' with. You never want to work in the head end light compartment with live 600 VDC...one simple error blasts your ass off the pit ladder to 'Kingdom Come.' OnTheJuice
Just like old fashioned christmas tree lights.
Did you know that the front lighting circuit of a redbird
uses less than 120VDC per bulb? In addition to the 2 signbox
bulbs, the 2 marker light bulbs, and the 1 local or express
bulb, there is an extra ballast resistor in series with the string.
You forgot to mention that the ballast resistor often protects the bulbs by blowing first. :)
Eees juiceky Komrads. Beeeg Bug
>>also completely screw up the signal department
Number 1 mission!!
Many years ago, being a 'big brain know it all,' I asked a operator why the third rail wasn't changed from DC to AC because of resistive loses. The guy absolutley flipped screaming at me about traction power. The reality was nobody had much experience with AC.
The problem with Edisons designs for power transmission in New York City was resistive loss. Every neighborhood electrified had its own powerplant (just like every neighborhood had its own 'gas house.')
Nicolai Tesla took nearly twenty years to prove the potential of multiphase AC power transmission. When the IRT came on line in 1904, it was fed from three powerhouses generating 11 KV AC at 25 cycles.
The power was distributed through impregnated insulation cables (they didn't have PVC) to substations with step down transformers to bring the voltage to about 650 VAC. The power was then run through mechanical convertors in synchronisation with the AC by large clock wheels to convert AC to DC.
DC 101 Traction motor class: at the turn of the century, AC motors
were still a novelty. They ran efficiently but could not produce mechanical torque or power. An AC motor has a excited field but its rotor is not and propelled solely by the magnetic force of the field.
A DC motor has a continously excited magnetic field and the rotor which couples to the gearbox has switches called the commutator which provides a continously opposing magnetic field. No matter what the speed, the opposing forces of field and rotor in a DC motor provide torque. Problem is that AC motors usually draw the same amount of power whether moving or stuck....DC motors have the ability to draw more power until they move or burn out. MCC control: Coast, switching, series, parallel.
Bottom line: subways were designed with DC power because the 'think tank' of Thomas Alva Edison had nothing to work with but DC power.
Todays AC traction motors are far more efficient than before but lack that 'punch' to pull a dead load. One of the advantages of New Tech AC motors is the loss of motor brushes....I can come home clean without a shower. Diesel electric towmotors will continue to use DC traction motors until the application of nuclear fusion. CI peter
BUZZZZ! The MBTA Blue Line's overhead is 600v(+/-) DC, just like we have at our trolley farms.
What explains the R142A's IEEEEE noise then? Is that the converting of the DC power to AC power?
That's the whine the motors themselves make.
"Newer Subway trains (and locomotives too) use AC motors, but the third rail is still DC, the train converts it electronically. It has different characteristics, and so those with more expertiese on this will give you more details."
Indeed.
Acela's locomotive draws AC power from a catenary, converts it to DC power, then reassigns it in 3 phases to AC traction motors.
(If I got that sequence or a detail wrong let me know).
I seem to recall triple-phase AC was in the catenary on the NEC. (I know this was the New Haven's system)...
I need to take the diamond Q from Atlantic Ave to Kings Highway tonight. What can I expect in terms of what trains will be on the line, timeliness, et al.
Thanks.
Should be running. A co-worker of mine who uses the Q at Church Ave came on a Q train. ROW should be clear of snow by now.
The R40 slants used on the Q diamond express were running this morning, but on the local track on the Brighton line in Brooklyn. Status is uncertain if the express tracks are cleared enough for the slants back on the express track. If so, T/O's will still exercise caution when entering stations as ice is an obstacle in the proper train stops. A big sign on S/B Prospect Park reminds all T/O's about leaves and ice causes problems in braking and are to use SAT:
Safety
Assertivness
Train Control
Took an R40 Slant home today on the express track with no problem. It was a Motorman operating not a T/O since is was power to the C/R Board and single brake application. I get the same job most nights home, this Motorman did not change his operating style in anyway.
Please explain the difference between a Train Operator and a Motorman???? Everyone operates their own way. There is no reason to say "Oh...He operates like a Train Operator" or "He's no Motorman" EVERYBODY WHO OPERATES TRAINS IN THE NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM ARE TRAIN OPERATORS. Show me ONE pass that has MOTORMAN listed as the title.
You don't get it. It has long been a saying or expression to say someone is a motorman or a train operator. Yes, to the casual eye they are the same thing. But for people who understand this very simple concept, they are two totally different things. Let me lay it out for your obvious ignorance:
When someone (who knows how to use the terms) says "that guy was a true motorman" or something to that extent, he or she means that he operated the train like a train SHOULD be operated, because most people that operate these days are too careful (and have a reason to be).
When someone (who knows how to use the terms) says "that guy was a train operator", he or she means that he operated the train like a pussy and didn't take any risk whatsoever.
But then again by the tone of your post, you knew this...damn ***. At least someone knows what I mean about this.
Obviously you don't work here.
"When someone (who knows how to use the terms) says "that guy was a train operator", he or she means that he operated the train like a pussy and didn't take any risk whatsoever."
Are you implying that any TRAIN OPERATOR who does not "take risks" operates like a pussy? And please tell me, how does a "pussy" operate a train?
You're right, why should a T/O take a 'risk' that could cause damage; like a derailment for instance.
Screw the damage - why should I take risks that might cost me my job? just to keep you guys happy?
I thought a motorman and T/O was the SAME position; just different names for them, guess its not for some :-\. Of course you have to be too careful although some T/O's are just slow. There are new timers and other stuff that prohibit speed in certain spots and the system is just not as fast as lets say 10-20 years ago.
So if you're called a train operator, you operate like a pussy that's what's you're saying. Elaborate on that......
"I thought a motorman and T/O was the SAME position; just different names for them, guess its not for some"
The title "motorman" has it roots back in the trolley days. No trolley operators back then. Men who operated the motors on the cars. Train operator is politcally correct or gender free. I prefer motorman.
Bill "Newkirk"
What are you some union shop steward?
Yes the current new york city civil service title is Motorman. I was using literary reference in my post to explain operating styles I observed in my lay mans comparison of operating styles.
Just like I will call Dedicated Station Announcers compared to Talking Heads. Which one are you?
"Yes the current new york city civil service title is Motorman."
WRONG again...It's TRAIN OPERATOR
"I was using literary reference in my post to explain operating styles I observed in my lay mans comparison of operating styles."
What are these different operating styles?
"Just like I will call Dedicated Station Announcers compared to Talking Heads. Which one are you?"
I am a CONDUCTOR
Mark, you are one dedicated conductor. I love the info you gave on that ERA trip last year. And it was fun too!!! How about the Triplex on the Brighton line on the express tracks one day.
Perfect: The D Type on the D line.
Gee I'm wrong, thank you Mom.
I will not continue with your child like postings.
When I rode the Q around 2:15 today, I only saw 1 Q express heading n/b and none bypassed the Q local I was in so it was kinda slow waiting for it then; don't know how it is now.
So shall we start this debate once more?
Seems even though both over running LIRR and TA had problems, Metro North's under running is still haveing more problems then their LIRR/TA.
What do you think??
I think any time you have a really bad snowfall your electrical supply is going to take a beating. I think the differences between the two systems are pretty trivial.
A more significant point of debate would be whether catenary systems hold up better.
How did SEPTA Regional Rail (catenary) perform compared to LIRR in terms of power failures and disabled trains?
Or even compare Metro North's New Haven line to it's Hudson and Harlem lines. Did the NH do better with it's Catenary vs. the other two lines?
Good point.
New Haven Line trains have to use 3rd rail to get from Pelham to GCT. My impression is that they probably withheld their dual mode catenary/3rd rail equipment from service until that tretch of 3rd rail was thoroughly cleared.
My impression is that Metro North had fewer problems that LIRR simply because they kept their 3rd rail equipment out of service in the worst of the snow.
In 1996 they tried to go full speed ahead in the storm and burned out a lot of motors. This time they ran on a very restricted schedule on Monday, probably running only diesels outdoors. Then Tuesday they seem to have run some electrics and had some disabled trains, but not as many as LIRR had.
I was heading home from work on a <5> train when at E. 180th we were held. Dispatcher made an announcement that due to a suspicious package at 238th Street-Nereid Ave, the train would be heading to Dyre Ave instead of 238th St, so I get off since I have to go the Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd. Next comes a (2) train, I get on but we were held for about 5 minutes. Dispatcher announces that this train would be terminating at Gun Hill Road. We get to Gun Hill Road, everyone gets off... lots of angry passengers. I feel sorry for the token booth clerk. Her booth was mobbed with people wanting block tickets to get on the Bx41.
I was saying to myself at E.180th: "Why don't they just turn the train at Gun Hill Road. They could have also turned the <5> at Gun Hill instead of sending it to Dyre Ave.
Anyhow, I was wonder if anyone knew if they use Gun Hill Road as a terminal often?
Just thought I let you guys/gals know.
Thanks
Brian
Dunno what that was about but at around 7:30 there was something going on at 96St that was delaying 2/3 trains northbound.I couldn't quite catch exactly what happened but it was over shortly after I went from the 2 train I was on to the 1 across the platform at 72St.
"Dunno what that was about but at around 7:30 there was something going on at 96St that was delaying 2/3 trains northbound"
I heard their was some kind of fight goin on at the station.
G-d damn 2 train! If it ain't one thing then it's another with this line. Maybe I should take the BxM11 express bus from now on. Coming home this evening, my 2 train kept stopping in between 96th and 110th, no reason given, not even a battery run made to get the train back on schedule. Not only that the T/O overshot the platform at East Tremont and the C/R had to come out manually open one door in each of the first five cars. As if taking the train into the yard with all those passengers on board a while back wasn't enough!
The 2 sucks! So does the 5, but not as much.
That T/O got away with it too!!! Your train also split a switch as well during your trip into B Lead. You lucky you didn't find out what a derailment feels like.
He got away with it. Was he asleep or something? Yes, I guess I am lucky the train didn't derail on those switches. But then I and everyone else on board that train could have sued the TA. That would have sent a huge wake-up call to 370 Jay Street.
Last I heard he blamed everything on the Tower Operator. I have not heard her voice so she must have got sent back or days in the street. I think its all bull the T/O took a Wrong Line meaning he was not paying any attention to the home signals apect and not looking at his iron. It was said that he ran a red jack which is a big no no and ofcause split the switch. I don't know how the hell he did get away with it. Its unknown if he is Promotional or from the street but I will break it down like this if he was Pro he should have been demoted and if he was from the street Termination. I know people that lost there job of stuff minor then this.
The < 5 > is a lay-up and the crew on most 238 Street trips have to be at Dyre in time to do a Trip to Bowling Green. So instead of sending the train back S/B is easy just to send it to Dyre.
Just another victim of 'Eyes and Ears.'
Those passenger's had nothing to be angry about.Ohhhhh,stupid people galore.It'll never,ever end.What's to be angry about?Something happened at 238St,something happened at 238St,not a god damn thing anyone can do about it.People gotta learn to take a chill pill or else get the f*** out of NYC,cause this really f***ing stinks already.
It really does.
This stuff happens too often on the <5>
[RANT]
Don't mess with WPR and stop screwing with the service, they like to take trains out at E 180th a lot just because they "think" they need it for Dyre service, and they eliminate(supposedly) the off peak <5> train to E 238 St, if it were up to me, the <5> would get a LOT more respect and would run to E 241 Street and restore it's former glory. Plus that train can take up to 20 minutes to show up, plus it runs for LESS than 2 HOURS, the <5> should get at least 3 hours running time AM AND PM. They should put a yard right after Newkirk and terminate the 5 there instead of Flatbush and then they will know how The Bronx feels, or send about 1/2 of the trains to Crown Hts Utica.
Also would you want to take a slow Bx41 bus which is probably packed at that time as well? of course they took away our (8) train and gave us ANOTHER bus to contend with
[/RANT]
Well, we can't blame Da Beastmaster -- he wasn't working last night...
I've been seeing some R-46's under 6th Av that have what appear to be newly painted silver car ends. This seems odd, since normally the R-46's ends aren't painted, that is the color of whatever the ends are made from. By the way, what are the R-46 ends made from? They look duller than the stainless steel carbody.
---Brian
Fiberglass, painted silver.
Jamaica shop is doing the end paint work in effort to spruce up the 46's looks.
"This seems odd, since normally the R-46's ends aren't painted, that is the color of whatever the ends are made from."
The R-46 ends have ALWAYS been painted. Just a different, duller finish. The current repaint has been on going since summer. I think it is stupid. They would look much better with the shade that the R-68's have. Imitation silver just looks horrible.
Especially when the rest of the train body is more duller than the repainted end. At least for the 68 and 68A, the color of the ends and the color of the rest of the train body compliment one another.
Well before the repaint, the R-46 ends look unpainted because i guess the coating is so even. But after the repaint you can definitly tell that there is a layer of paint on there. Yeah, now the ends are brighter than the car body, whereas before they were duller than the car body. I don't know if it looks bad, but it does stick out.
I think they look better, at least they aren't a dingy brown and the springs don't look so rusted.
And the R68 color on an R46? yuck... not that I think it looks great on the R68s either.
The R46 ends may actually be carbon steel.
No, all of it is STAINLESS STEEL.
Wait, a correction! By reading other posts, the ends are fiberglass....but what that? Wouldn't it have been easier just to make it all stainless steel. I'm pretty sure the R68 is like that.
R-68/68A ends are fiberglass also, as are R-62/62As, R-40/42s (a ends only) and R-44s. Don't know about R-142/142As or R-143s though, haven't looked at them that closely.
Peace,
ANDEE
It really makes no sense though. Stainless steel is much stronger than fiberglass is. Why make it weaker unless it's stronger...?
The car ends are basically esthetic, so making them of fiberglas castings reduces the weight of the car -- after they put those strong collision posts in the car ends where you don't see 'em...hidden between the fiberglass end casting and the car interior. Therein lies the strength....
The 142 and 143 are probably 'glas also because they have that dull grey color.
I guess fiberglass works so they chose that but the R46's with the repaint look pretty awful to me.
Painting ANYTHING that is subject to weather and the ravages of car washing machines with silver paint is going to be futile. It will always look like shit in no time at all.
Look at all of Amtrak's locomotives....when they are brand new, they look great. First time they are repainted, they look nice for two weeks and then turn to crap. Remember how bad the silver and blue paint looked on the subway cars? Brand new ones -- WOW! A month later, UGH!!
Brand new ones -- WOW!
A month later, UGH!!
Although, there was more than just the deterioration of silver paint here...
LMAO!
Yeah and combine the blue/silver with the graffiti, very bad sight and the exterior looks nasty.
"The R46 ends may actually be carbon steel."
The end bonnets are fiberglass.
Bill "Newkirk"
On my way to jury duty at 161st St/Concourse today, I transferred from the downtown A to the uptown B/D at 145th St. I noticed that the Bronx-bound island platform on the B/D (lower) level is double-wide -- twice as wide as the southbound platform. There are 3 tracks on that level -- uptown and downtown locals, and express in the middle, with island plats between the middle track and the outer locals. But the layout seems almost as if they once planned a second express tarck -- the width of the uptown platform would perfectly fit a second express track plus a normal width platform.
On reflection, I doubt they planned a second express track. Probably, the layout reflects that the upper level has four tracks, and they built each lower level local track directly under each upper level local track, and the lower express track under one of the 2 upper express tracks, instead of putting it symmetrically in the exact middle of ther 2 local tracks. They probably had to do this to avoid the columns holding up the upper level. Am I right?
Still it's curious they didn't make the downtown platform the double-wide one-- that's the one with lots of people waiting in the morning rush.
Exactly right.
Southbound passengers can distribute themselves more evenly, since trains from the upper and lower levels go to the same place. Northbound passengers have to use the lower level to reach the Bronx. If there's a delay in NB Concourse service, I can imagine that platform filling up. SB, overall delays are less common since two lines feed the station.
When the Concourse Line was built there was only enough funding available for a three-track line. Bronx residents had a choice: either wait until additional funding was available for a four-track line or get a three-track line now. They chose the latter.
It is slated to open sometime this year, but when? Any ideas, folks?
Maybe this June....????
Did you give up? I didn't hear the usual outburst......
Just resigning myself to the issue...it's hopeless...:(
I believe that they said sometime this Spring, so that probably means early to mid June. I think it will be exciting when it re-opens. I haven't been there since I was about 9. That was a LOOONNNGGG time ago!
Mid Spring is equal to September.
AAAARRRRRGGGH !!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
The tracks on lower Bergen have red lights with wooden ties clamped across them - will they ever get putback into service, even for an occasional G.O.?
The interlocking @ Bergen is about to be rebuilt, then the tracks will be re-opened...Maybe within a year or two.
(The interlocking @ Bergen is about to be rebuilt, then the tracks will be re-opened...Maybe within a year or two)
Substantial completion is 36 months from start, which was October. They are doing the Lower Level first.
The air stuff is going away in favor of capacitor stops and M-3 switches, right?
Any changes to the original track layout, additional reverse moves?
The NB lower level had an A B & C home signal lever approaching the trailing point, which I could never understand the reason for ... I assume that's going away ...
Dave
The express tracks are unusable up to 4 Av since its blocked by the red lights. Doubt it BUT you never know.
"The express tracks are unusable up to 4 Av since its blocked by the red lights."
There have been some G.O.'s that have the F run express from Jay to Church or from 4th ave to Jay. ATST the G ran 2 sections between Hoyt and Court Square late nights.
Before the line to the 63rd Street Tunnel was built, they started out with the short connection to the 5th St. and Sixth Ave. station. What did the track configuration look like before that station was built, meaning how did the northbound trains run from 47th - 50th Street - Rockefeller Center? I am not sure, but the F trains were in the middle tracks and the D trains were on the outside or local tracks, but then they had to switch places after 47th- 50th Street in order to get to their proper destinations. Anybody out there able to clear this one up?
Check the track maps. On the northbound platform the local is on the "outside" and express on the "inside" like you would expect. The 57th St. station was served by Q trains which terminated there (the B/D went to Central Park W and F to 53rd St).
On the southbound side though, the local track is on the *inside* and the express is on the outside. They swap places between 47th/50th and 42nd Street.
And it is precisely this track-swapping that ultimately limits the total number of trains one can send thru the Rutgers tunnel.
Why do you say that? The tracks don't "swap" at grade at 47th St. One passes under the other. I doubt that's a limiting factor.
From what I have observed personally, as well as what the maps at this site indicate, there is indeed a grade-swap between local/express trains on the southbound tracks between 49th-Rocky Ctr and 42nd:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smidtown.gif
You're misreading the map. The local track crosses below the express track. You can see this for yourself when a local and an express leave 47th-50th at the same time.
If you look at the large map in fact you'll see one shown by a short dotted line, you can't see that in the small version of the maps.
If I'm not mistaken don't they call it a "flying junction" ?
Peace,
ANDEE
IINM, I don't think it's a junction if there are no switches.
I stand corrected. None of the trains I ever travelled on on 6th Av had a railfan window.
Still, aren't there limitations on overall capacity imposed by the 53rd switch?
"The 57th St. station was served by Q trains which terminated there (the B/D went to Central Park W and F to 53rd St)."
On that topic, but slightly more recently:
What served 21-st Queensbridge on weekends in the period approx 1999- July 2001? During that time period the B went to CPW and the Q didn't run on weekends.
Until late 2000, the B ran to Queensbridge on weekends.
For the first half of 2001, the B ran up CPW and no service(!) was scheduled to Queensbridge on weekends. Service was by GO, usually provided by the F or R. (On July 4, which had no weekend GO's but ran on a weekend schedule, there was a special Queensbridge shuttle.)
Between 7/22/01 and 12/16/01, the 6th Avenue/63rd Street shuttle had scheduled night and weekend service but it was almost always cancelled in favor of GO's on the F and R.
Thanks. I hadn't realized the time period for which the B went up CPW on the weekends was so short. In fact, it looks more like the only reason they sent the B up CPW was to get it out of the way while doing work that required the F or R to use the 63rd St tunnel instead of 53rd or 60th.
That doesn't bode well for them restoring the B to CPW on weekends once the MB reopens.
Thanks. I hadn't realized the time period for which the B went up CPW on the weekends was so short. In fact, it looks more like the only reason they sent the B up CPW was to get it out of the way while doing work that required the F or R to use the 63rd St tunnel instead of 53rd or 60th.
Exactly right.
That doesn't bode well for them restoring the B to CPW on weekends once the MB reopens.
There is insufficient demand for four CPW services on weekends. OTOH, there is sufficient demand for two local services, with direct service to both 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue, as I hope was made clear in early 2001. It's the second express service that's superfluous.
(It's the second express service that's superfluous.)
I believe you. The MTA probably agrees too. But imagine the public hearings where that gets proposed! The Bronx being shafted to benefit Manhattan once again!
I think the MTA doesn't want to spend the political capital to push that change through.
A change from express service to local service doesn't require public hearings. Such changes are done as a matter of course on a regular basis as NYCT deems appropriate.
And the Bronx isn't being "shafted." Those going to points on the D south of 59th will indeed have to endure three more minutes of riding, while seated on a climate-controlled R-68. But those wishing to transfer to the A will do so at 125th and won't lose any time, and those bound for local CPW stations will gain time by not having to get off at 125th and wait for the C.
(And the Bronx isn't being "shafted." )
You know it and I know, just like we know that the V is a huge net benefit to QB riders. That doesn't change what politicians and select members of the public would say.
Is it true that formerly permanent express service can be terminated permanently (as opposed to temporarily for 12 years as in the case of the MB closings) without hearings? The last example I can think of was the end of the F express in Brooklyn. Was that done without hearings?
Let's see.
Until 1994, on weekdays, the N and R ran local on 4th Avenue and the B and M ran express. In 1994, the M and N switched roles. No public hearing, AFAIK.
Also in 1994 (I think), 1/9 skip-stop was curtailed to rush hours only. No public hearing, AFAIK.
In the late 90's, the late night 2 and E began running local. No public hearing, AFAIK.
In 1999, the weekday J/Z began stopping at the Bowery. No public hearing, AFAIK.
In early 2002, the W began running local in Queens. (Or does that count as a temporary service? It's not clear if the W will remain after the Manhattan Bridge reopens.) No public hearing, AFAIK.
OK, so they can make moderate sized changes without a hearing.
But I still suspect that there would be a huge (unjustified) outcry if they made the A or D a local on CPW on the weekends.
Yeah, there would be a huge (justified) outcry from this Bronx resident. Don't f*** with my D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not your D train. It's part of a subway system. Right now, on weekends, the D is mostly empty along CPW while the C is erratic and often crowded. If locals are more crowded than expresses, the system isn't balanced properly.
What makes you think your 3 minutes are worth more than a Manhattan resident's (or a tourist's) 5-10 minutes? What makes you think your 3 minutes seated aboard a well-lit, climate-controlled R-68 are worth more than a Manhattan resident's (or a tourist's) 5-10 minutes standing on a cold, dingy IND platform?
(What makes you think your 3 minutes seated aboard a well-lit, climate-controlled R-68 are worth more than a Manhattan resident's (or a tourist's) 5-10 minutes standing on a cold, dingy IND platform?)
Slight exaggeration. He loses 3 minutes. The tourist's EXPECTED waiting time (given proper scheduling) drops from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes.
If the two locals are bunched together (as the N and R always seemed to be in the days when the south side of the MB was closed), the benefits of the second local are even less.
I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. But the case isn't quite as strong as you'd like it to be. The numbers issue (Cs more crowded than Ds) is the strongest part of the case.
Slight exaggeration. He loses 3 minutes. The tourist's EXPECTED waiting time (given proper scheduling) drops from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes.
If the tourist actually wants the C. If the tourist is going to the more useful 6th Avenue (or to the Concourse line), then he needs to transfer to the D. That's an expected wait of 5 minutes for the C plus another expected wait of 5 minutes for the D, unless C's and D's are scheduled to meet at 59th.
And I strongly suspect, though I haven't seen any actual numbers, that CPW local stations have much greater weekend usage than Concourse stations. One of the local stations connects to a major museum!
Besides, the C runs at 10-minute headways for only part of the day on weekends. I discovered the hard way last Sunday morning that it's still on 15-minute headways at 9:15 -- an A, a light A, a D, and another A all passed through Columbus Circle before a C pulled in (and I didn't just miss the prior C).
Good points.
Typical Manhattan resident.
I like to sleep amd all those extra "BING-BONGS" would keep me awake.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I like to sleep amd all those extra "BING-BONGS" would keep me awake.
The subway is for transportation, not rest.
The subway is for transportation, not rest.
Not according to Betty Comden, Adolph Green, or Jule Styne.
OK, I have NO idea who any of those people are.
There was a Broadway musical: "Subways are for Sleeping".
I'm guessing that those folks (who were Broadway producers, etc.) created it.
>>>It's not your D train. It's part of a subway system.<<<
Since my paternal Grandfather was one of the designers of the Concourse Line it is my D train, so there. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We've gotta talk to the Dude about getting one of those birdies redone as an observation car with a lounge suite. :)
It may have been your grandfather's train, but the IND isn't a hereditary monarchy.
Besides, I presume his grandfather was paid for his work by the city, making his work the city's property.
I should have been more specific - what did the line look like before 57th Street & Sixth Ave. station was built. This includes the tracks to access it.
Some Amtrak service remains affected by the winter storm that hit the East Coast this past President's Day weekend. On Wednesday, Amtrak will run a normal schedule between Boston and Washington, D.C. The Auto Train will operate as scheduled in both directions between Sanford, Florida and Lorton, Virginia. However, certain trains in the southeast will operate on a modified schedule. For the latest and most up-to-date information, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL.
From: Amtrak.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I was going through some of the new photos added to many of the stations in the station by station section on this site. I haven't been to the Concourse line in a while, and this photo took me by surprise. I think it's great! I gotta go there just to check this out. It makes it worthwhile to even visit an otherwise depressing cookie-cutter IND station. Is this on the platform or in the mezzanine? Any other stations that they put this kind of "art"?
This is on the mezzanine. Also, check out Times Square. It has been greatly improved with art by the late Jacob Lawrence.
Yup. Times Square is coming along nicely. Most of the artwork throughout the system really is well done.
I just kind of like that "crumbling" type of look that is at 161st STreet.
Union Square has a similar artwork (as well as historical in that case). They brought up some pieces of the wall from the sealed abandoned 1904 local platform down below. They put it up in the mezzanine, and they put it in such a way that you would think that it was always there, and they cut sections out so you can walk through it.
(from Joe Brennan's abandoned station site)
That is very nice.
There's some station, i forget where, with little brass figures sitting on I beams accross the stairways, etc.
BTW, the musical thing at 34th by Harold Square is still there last i checked.
14 St - 8 Av features that.
179 St mezzanine has figues that appear to be holding up the ceiling.
Yup that's 14th-8th you are probably thinking of. Little figures sit in corners, under stairways and on beams. etc.
Canal Street on the 8th Ave line has birds sitting in different places.
Yeah, they did a nice job at 161st -- that's why I took that picture! While you're there, check out the platform-level benches.
OTOH, the signage is a bit confusing. This sign, which shouldn't be posted at this station at all, appears at least twice:
It's tempting to find some white tape and paste "Loc over "Exp" on the sign.
But does it really matter? It is 161rst Street southbound, after all. The train isn't going to be a local much longer.
One more year till the Manny B comes back.
Huh? That station is a local station but that sign belongs at an express station. The D specifically doesn't stop there at the times the sign indicates that it does -- only the B stops at 161st SB in the morning rush.
The correct information is posted on other signs: the D (Concourse local/CPW express) stops there at all times except the morning rush and the B (Concourse/CPW local) stops there in both rush hours.
This has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge -- this has been the service pattern since the B and C traded places in 1998(?). Of course, anything can change when the bridge fully reopens -- the option I'm rooting for has the B as a consistent full-time local with the D filling in as an express when express service runs, since the current pattern causes confusion at local stops (as evidenced by this subthread).
That sign amazes me. Ironicly this sub-thread has "MTA's Sense of Humor" on it, because it almost seems like it has to be a joke. I can understand when old signs are never removed and there is an outdated sign somehwere, but what kind of moronic worker would even place that sign there to begin with? It says, "...other times on local track." Didn't he even think about what he was doing? Even if he had no idea about subway patterns, the sign says that there should be an "other" track, which there obviously isn't, since it's a wall platform. Obviously it was from a pile of signs made for the line, and he grabbed one (or two as you said) that was supposed to be placed at Tremont, or north of Fordham. He obviously didn't care about what he was doing.
"Huh? That station is a local station but that sign belongs at an express station. The D specifically doesn't stop there at the times the sign indicates that it does -- only the B stops at 161st SB in the morning rush. "
Yes, you're right of course. I had forgotten about that. Been in KC too long...
"This has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge -- this has been the service pattern since the B and C traded places in 1998(?)."
I didn't say it had. I was alluding more to the 6th Av portion of the express service ending at 34th Street. Perhaps I should have said so.
So the B should be signed simply in the Bronx as an express when it runs to Brooklyn, because it skips two stops on 6th Avenue, even though it makes all local stops on the Concourse and CPW lines before getting there?
The only line segment mentioned on the sign is Concourse. (I'm surprised CPW is omitted, but it is.) The B runs local on the Concourse line.
You've obviously been away from the subway far too long. I think the proposed 7 extension should itself be extended -- all the way to KC.
Concourse Express?
Yeah, I find that to be VERY humorous 8-). At first I thought you cut up the pic & made it look like a collage but that's a cool sight at 161 St.
That artwork is pretty cool :D
The only thing I worry about is trashing it. In fact, it's probably easier now with it like that.
And it looks like it was trashed a few times already. I see a blue line on the cement blocks in the photo.
I noticed it as well. It's hard to believe it is vandalism, given the simplistic route the possible vandal took. I mean it's just a blue line! Then again, I don't know the work of vandals anyway.
Can someone explain this to me? I don't get it.
That takes second place to the artwork at 14th St-Union Square. A replica of an original IRT pillar, is slowly "eaten" away by some unknown origin. It's on the passageway at the IRT side, start from where the L train elevator is at and walk slowly to the north side of the passageway before you turn left for the Broadway side. I do find this very amusing and funny.
Hmmm. I never noticed that one. I'll have to look next time I'm there.
Funny, the MTA in deciding this "artwork", used the eagle from the 33rd St mosaic and replaced the "33" with "14" on it. Still an amusing display to see.
Funny, the MTA in deciding this "artwork", used the eagle from the 33rd St mosaic and replaced the "33" with "14" on it. Still an amusing display to see.
Wait a minute, do you mean this?
If you do, I have seen them. This actually is however the ORIGINAL 1904 decoration from Union Square's 1904 station. They were on the local platforms that have been covered over. They are not replicas of 33rd Street's eagles. They brought these sections of wall up from the abandoned local platforms. 33rd Street, 14th street, and Brooklyn Bridge all had eagles:
Here they are when they were still on the 14th street local platform.
(from Joe Brennan's abandoned station site)
And here are the ones from the Brooklyn Bridge local platforms, that I took n an abandoned station tour:
Yes, that's it, waht a shame that the IRT local platforms at Union Square are covered, they are UGLY to look at. Now, did Godzilla took a chomp out of the last 3 pillars?
Yes, that's it, waht a shame that the IRT local platforms at Union Square are covered, they are UGLY to look at. Now, did Godzilla took a chomp out of the last 3 pillars?
I wondered the same thing last time I was there. At first I thought they brought the whole thing up from the local platforms, and then they gradually fell apart, but I assume they planned it that way. But if they did plan it that way, what did they do with the eagles that are missing from the pillars in the mezzanine? In that case, they should have just left them downstairs where they were, on the abandoned platforms.
The tiles on the Metroploitan Ave/G line and 34th St/8th Ave are IND replicas (Madison Square Garden was at 50th St when the first IND section opened, nice IND touch). So are the track walls at Atlantic Ave/Brighton line (BMT style), Broadway-Lafayette, 7th Ave/53rd st, and more recently; 42nd st/8th Ave. NYCT has made a lot of replica tiles and mosaics arround the system.
NYCT has made a lot of replica tiles and mosaics arround the system.
They sure have! To add to the ones mentioned, I think the BMTizing or the stations at 8th ave/14th, Fulton, and Broad (originally built with an IND look) are among some of the best old style reproductions in the system. 8th was made to look like the rest of the Canarsie line stations, and Fulton and Broad were matched to the look of the Nassau Line's stations. Those stations even look better than when they were new!
If you didn't know better, Fulton and Broad look just like Canal and Bowery which are still original, and you would never know that the tiles were placed so many years apart. The same for 8th Avenue and it's original tiled neighbor 6th ave.
Train derailment near port washinton station
all service suspended between great neck and port washington
as of 10:40 pm
It hasn't been anybody's week, has it?
This one shouldn't take too long to clean up, though.
Heh. How on earth did that happen with the S-L-O-W crawl from Plandome to PW?
Then again, they still have self guarded frog switches in the PW yard and area, IIRC.
Not anyone's week? Today was total hell at work for me, but I beat my loud pipes ticket in Bayville today (Cop wrote it wrong, BTW, stay the F&@K out of Bayville if you've got a bike. They're ticketing EVERY bike that enters in the summer.
It was a work train or at least not in revenue service. Service has been restored as of the 7am news.
What could be the reason causing LIRR cancel/combine some of it's rush hours train tomorrow morning?
dead equiptment
Many Trains today were canceled leaving points west b/c of no working equiptment
The fact that 18" on snow was just dumped on the Metropolitan area, and we're all still dealing with it.
"What could be the reason causing LIRR cancel/combine some of it's rush hours train tomorrow morning?"
A recent Newsday article said that the LIRR usually has about 80 MU's out of service, being repaired or awaiting repairs. Monday's snowstorm brought the number up to 140 cars out of service. Those M-1 traction motors suck up those snowflakes big time. Other electrical aparatus is affected too. When you have these many MU's OOS, trains run short, cancelled or combined.
Bill "Newkirk"
This morning....told to clear front area of 239ths barn. Jet engine blower brought out of mothballs from 180th to clear yard. In 1996, this machine propelled ballast in tracks to blow out snow......picked up track ballast destroying hundreds of subway car windows and headlights. Today....place stunk from kerosene (J1/JP4.) CI Peter
I hear that someonce can get suck in and the heat is very intense. thats what I hear. i evben got to see it sitting on the tracks on the other Island platform.
AMI
Looked like a cool sight to blow the snow away 8-).
Unlike aviation, the jet engine sits in a movable cradle in the midst of a frame of a machine that looks like an old Sanitation street sweeper. It sits horizontal or exhaust down... the propulsion end has a big and wide nozzle that can be manipulated by the operator...intake is safely away from the tracks. Tuesday, the yards were locked up frozen so we did not have trainsets to inspect.
I painted yellow lines. Yellow lines are nice. Yellow lines are inside of the blue lines. You must wear your safety shoes, protective eyewear and blue hard hat to paint yellow lines. In 1996, the unit ran full blast and spit up ballast breaking trainset windows
and headlights. I'll take another Tuesday. CI Peter
I saw one of them at Rock Park. It did remind me of an old piece of Department of Sanitation equipment.
Jet Blower
I remember hearing one of the Jet Blowers many years ago on the Brighton Line after a severe snow storm. It was loud and the air really smelled of jet fuel.
One of those was sitting outside E180 on Sunday.
It looks like it would make a good express train. The local stations would need new signs: "Hold onto your hats!"
Today I rode a Babylon train M-7 from flatbush 5:45, the M-7 fared alot better in the snow than the train I took to brooklyn in the morning...not a problem at all, great acceleration in the snow, though braking into a few stations (Baldwin, Freeport)jolted the train as it slowed
LIRR service is pretty much back to normal except PW
Formerly "Smugglerbuddy"
Chalk up another plus for AC traction. Those M-1 really like to suck up those snowflakes !
Bill "Newkirk"
Go to wwww.monorails.org for upcoming pictures of cars of the Las Vegas monorail.
You got too many w's there. And the site is down right now.
www.lasvegasregion.com.monorail.html has constuction photos and a picture of the monorail cab displayed at the Las Vegas convention center.
when does it open up got to take some pics !
Opening is scheduled for 01/20/2004. If you go to www.metropla.net under Las Vegas section, there is a link for the official websight and a map. The www.monorails.org page is still down.
It would be a cool idea to arrange next year a Subtalk West Coast field trip to explore Las Vegas Monorail, Los Angeles rail system, and San Diego's Trolley and Coaster.
sign me up my application is ready _________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________
& what do i fill in the blank with ???
Does Amtrak still have passenger service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles?
An ideal schedule is to meet in Las Vegas Strip (we can try to find a hotel that will give group rate discount), and ride the monorail and explore the different casinos along the route for 2 days.
Then Subtalkers can travel by Amtrak to Los Angeles Union Station, and stay in a nearby downtown hotel.
The next day from Union Station as a base, we can ride the red line subway, blue line, and gold line (does it open next year). From the blue line, we can connect to the green line. On the second full day, we can ride the Angels Flight funicular, and ride the Metrolink to Oceanside. Spending the night at a motel in Oceanside, we can eat and have drinks near the beach.
The next morning, we can catch the COASTER commuter train to San Diego, and explore the San Diego Trolley. I rode the entire San Diego Trolley last June with a $5.00 all day pass in about 3 hours.
On the second full day, we can ride the Angels Flight funicular
Not anymore.
amtrak does not go to las vegas..........anymore..........sigh......
.....the dog still does !........greyhound dat is......boring !!!
>>> Does Amtrak still have passenger service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles? <<<
There is good news and bad news. The good news is that Amtrak does have passenger service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. The bad news is that service is by bus.
>>> On the second full day, we can ride the Angels Flight funicular, and ride the Metrolink to Oceanside. <<<
Even when it was running, Angels Flight could hardly be the basis for a day of railfanning. It is similar to setting aside a day in New York to ride the Times Square shuttle. And, BTW, no daily Fun Pass in Los Angeles. Oceanside is hardly a place to spend the night unless you have a relative in the Marine Corp at Camp Pendleton.
Tom
The Angels Flight Railway (formal name from a souvenir pin) is still closed since an accident a few years ago, isn't it?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Thats right YOU!!!!
Please Email me delays, line, station, time of delay, and if possible real cause, and cause told to passengers.
and all other info on any delays there are
at
Smugglerbuddy@aol.com
Formerly "Smugglerbuddy"
For LIRR?
MNRR?
MTA?
LGA?
Newark?
Yankee Stadium?
Which sections, brah?
Yankee stadium is looking at delays of up to a month and a half.
Reason: first home game isn't until Apr. 7.
They can go on waiting LONGER... I wouldn't mind.
(Guess whose side of the diamond I'm on)
any system is appreciated, will post a wrapup at 10-11pm every day
You can get e-mail notification of every WMATA delay if you go to www.wmata.com. Just click on Ealerts and then check all the boxes so that you get notification of what line is delayed, between what stations, what direction, length of delay, and the cause. You also recieve e-mail when it is cleared. You can use the timestamps to figure out when the delays begin and end.
Sorry in advance about the way the tables are placed, I don't know how to fix that.
I never have time to railfan anymore, but on Monday I had to go to court at 8:00am, two hours later when they finally called my time, they told me to come back at 2:30pm for my trial (speeding 30 mph over the limit). To kill time, I "railfanned" (read: slept on the train the whole time) the East line and South Line. Seeing how I still had over two hours before trial, I went to Peachtree Center and spotted all the cars running on the line during the midday.
I went to Peachtree Center because it's roughly at the center of the North-South line and it has an island platform which allowed me see trains in both directions easily. It took about an hour to see every train. I would have never thought it, but you can really learn a lot by just writing down the car numbers you see.
There were 21 trains total for both routes. The Doraville Line had 10 trains and the North Springs Line had 11 trains. There were a total of 100 cars in use. That shows that they aren't just randomly running 4 or 6 car trains whenever they feel like it. The East-West Lines are more consistant in their train lengths. I was able to calculate the average headway for midday by looking at the schedule for running times from end to end. The Doraville Line takes 80 minutes for a round trip, so divided by 10 trains, the line is running at 8 minute headways. Calculating for North Springs, they too are running at 8 minutes. The published schedule say trains are supposed to run every 10 minutes, so it looks like run are running an extra train for each route. Four mintue headways on the trunk line is pretty damn good for middays. I wonder what actual headways are for rush hour.
Here is a table showing all the cars on the line:
SouthboundTrain (Run) #1st car2nd3rd4th5th6th 158 232 231 279 280 209 210 201 237 238 289 290 159 629 630 667 668 202 626 625 632 631 160 652 651 645 646 611 612 203 660 659 648 647 151 242 241 306 305 204 308 307 310 309 152 245 246 291 292 205 253 254 263 264 301 302 153 247 248 296 295 206 204 203 315 316 Northbound Train (Run) # 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 207 603 604 607 608 154 233 234 281 282 256 255 208 283 284 303 304 257 258 155 674 673 601 602 701 702 209 277 278 268 267 215 216 156 628 627 621 622 210 263 262 297 298 157 230 229 252 251 270 269 211 634 633 657 658 158* 210 209 280 279 231 232 201* 290 289 238 237
*Finished the cycle from Peachtree Center to Airport and back
The run numbers are assigned according to the route they run on. 151-200 is for all Doraville trains (obviously they aren't running 50 trains), and 201-250 is for the North Springs Line. On the East-West, 101-120 is for Indian Creek-Holmes trains and 121-150 is for Bankhead trains.
The bold numbers show that the first married pair of the CQ312 (Breda) car order was coupled with the very last cars of the order. Those cars looked brand-spanking new, so they couldn't have been in service for more than a week. What is *really* suprising is that the order was for 100 cars, so there shouldn't be a 701-702 married pair, it should have ended at 699-700. I wonder if MARTA actually ordered at 20 options they wanted to order. I guess we'll find out in a few month if any higher numbers are seen.
Car spotting is much more fun than I thought it would be, I can't wait to do the East-West Line.
I also can't wait to do Sao Paulo's subway in August. Those trains run at 100 second headways, I better learn how to write *very* fast by then!
I better learn how to write *very* fast by then!
BEGIN MODE=PARENT
Better that you write very fast than that you drive very fast...
END MODE=PARENT
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, dad. :-)
I got pulled over on the interstate, and anyone who hs driven in Atlanta knows that NO ONE goes the limit. I even had DOT traffic data that showed the average speed on that segment of I-75 was over 20 mph the limit. I was one of the unlucky few, I guess.
Perhaps "very few", Rob, but not "no one". One of the ways I've managed to keep a clean driving record for longer than you've been on this planet is to stick at or very, very close to the speed limit - and I've driven around Atlanta a number of times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would argue that it's the *difference* in speed that makes driving dangerous. But if what you do has worked for many years, then I can't argue with that. I have two speeding tickets and a wreck under my belt, so I'm in no position to say the proper way to drive :-)
It's all moot anyway, I hardly drive at all anymore. I now take two buses and the subway everyday. The best part is that it takes the same amount of time as it would to drive. I HATE driving.
I would argue that it's the *difference* in speed that makes driving dangerous.
That's only one factor. In my experience (over 30 years behind the wheel, about 1.3 million miles driven - I average over 40K per year) the biggest hazard in urban freeway driving like Atlanta's is the driver who slices through traffic, changing lanes constantly. Distractions, be it loud music, cell phones, passengers, or whatever, is hazard number two. Speed is number three, because generally the driver is driving beyond the limits of their ability to control their car, and almost always beyond the ability of other drivers around them to react. Traffic that is fifteen mph or more below the prevailing speed is down around number six or seven on the list. I've been in several accidents over the years, only one my fault (fell asleep at the wheel when I was about your age, hit a road sign), and none in freeway driving. Two happened at highway speed; one was due to mechanical failure of the vehicle (master cylinder failure, four miles after it was replaced by the dealer), and the one that in theory should have killed me was due to a drunk driver on the wrong side of the road (I walked away with minor injuries). The others were at low speed or while I was stopped - on three occasions I've been struck in the rear because I decided to stop for a red light or a stop sign (what a novel idea!) when the vehicle behind me was planning to run it.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who pulled you over? Was it Sheriff Lobo or Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane.
Barney Fife, of course. I was banking on the cop not showing up, but he showed up and I was found guilty :-( The prosecution recommended paying $315 fine, but since they didn't have my driving record, the judge assumed this was my first offense and she knocked the fine down to the minimum $101 plus defensive driving school. Good thing they didn't know about my other two tickets!
I'm glad I didn't plead nolo, otherwise I would have paid $315. i'm also glad I renewed my insurance two weeks ago, so I have 6 months before that gets raised.
Too bad it was not Deputy Perkins (Sheriff Lobo's bumbling idiot sidekick).
What's up with the huge gap between the text and the tables? I hate it when I have to scroll.
Webmaster Dave may be able to explain... it's always been like that on SubTalk, Rob's HTML is correct. That's probably one of the reasons folks don't use tables very often here :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmm, right now I'm looking at this on a Mac (I posted the table from a Windows PC) and the table has shifted some of the data o the right, but you don't have to scroll way down to see everything. I guess that's what I get for using Frontpage to make that table.
I guess you could call it a bug; when a message is saved, it inserts an html (br) tag everyplace you hit return (in order to preserve the formatting later). Unfortunately it also does this when you're typing in raw html, which in this case caused a problem because the (br)'s were inserted in between table row tags. Since the (br)'s were in between the row tags and not part of the rows themselves, your browser renders all the (br) tags outside of the table. I manually edited out the (br) tags in that post just now, but I'm not sure how to fix it for the future. The point is when you hit return you WANT the line break to show up. Except when you're typing in a table. Sounds like a lot of work to detect that situation and fix it when it doesn't happen all that often.
I manually edited out the (br) tags in that post just now, but I'm not sure how to fix it for the future.
Perhaps the workaround (for people posting tables, not you as webmaster) is to make one run-on line including all the table rows.
SouthboundTrain (Run) #1st car2nd3rd4th5th6th158232231279280209210201237238289290 159629630667668
This is part of the original table... we'll see.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do u post pictures on this website, anyway?
I'd like to know as well... I think it's easy as using image tags like these:
SOURCE
I believe that's how it goes, but it may be .
I haven't trid this so I wouldn't know.
What the??? I guess it worked... Weird.
What words did u put in the HTML tag brackets?
I used both IMAGE and IMG. It worked in both instances as you can see. I see the little picture symbol, so it must have worked. However, when it comes to what to type for source, I'm lost... The part I hate the most is the HREF part.
Well, first you have to have them on a web server someplace... personal web space, or any one of a variety of other places around the net. (Your own workstation won't do, since it's not accessible by other computers.) Then you have to use the appropriate HTML tags to post either a link or include the image inline. I'll give you an example here of how to do both; you'll have to do a "view source" on this page to see the actual commands I used, since I haven't figured out how to reliably interpret the HTML so you can read it.
This is a link that, when clicked, will display the same picture as you see posted inline below - Ottawa Electric Railway line car 25 at Branford.
And make sure you use the "preview" command when doing this... good thing I did, since I had a typo in my HTML and the picture wouldn't have shown up if I hadn't corrected it.
Hope that helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Left my house about 8:20AM. saw a 10-car consist DHing towards Far Rock. Okay, not bad, I think. I arrive at the platform of Hewlett at 8:35. Next train arrives at 8:53. Which train was this? The 8:35, of course! Wanna guess what the consist was? (hint: 10) This train was the local/express to Penn. At each stop V.S. - L.M. the train had the 2 front cars off the edge (I was in the second car, 9068 IIRC). Question: How is a conductor able to bypass 2 or more cars? Arent the door controls for the entire train? Anyways, the train arrives at Jamaica, and I notice that although the train is actually 30 minutes late, on the board, it says "on time" Question: When a train is listed as late (i.e. 15 minutes), is it 15 minutes from the scheduled time, or is it 15 minutes from the 5:59 seconds of "on time" lateness? Anyways, i await the nonstop express to FLA (I do not know the scheduled time. Low and Behold, an M7!!! [:-0] I take a backwards seat (no fowards) and enjoy the nice acceleration. I did not care for all of the rocking the train did. Very violent near Dunton tower, and on the EL over Atlantic. I liked the ride, though.
Later in the day, I found myself at Penn, waiting for a train to get me back home. Apparently, the cancellations were due to well over 100 (200+, IINM) MU's out. Well, first I await the 5:10 to Speonk (w/connections to FR) instead of the nice c3's coming from the west, some M1's come from the east (everythin was pullin double duty). I think to have extra DM's in WS yard, they should cut the 6:07AM bab train, and have a thru diesel instead (no change @ Bab necessary). So, Why should I transfer when I can just as well take a direct train home (5:32). Well, the Long Beach trains were combined into one train at 5:23. So, coming along the Atlantic branch, we have to slow for the LB to make all local stops. We pulled in 7 minutes late.
Another note. I took the ( Q) from Church. The express pulled in while the local pulled out. Outside of prospect, we had to hold for the Express (slow). At Dekalb, we had to hold for the ( W) also. A very looong subway ride, indeed.
Usually, the conductors use two controls (one for front doors, one for back doors), but I believe that there are bypass controls.
The LIRR does not have front-4 rear-4 door controls. They are one set of controls is for all the doors.
When the Franklin Avenue shuttle was still the 50¢ shuttle, I remember it used the former southbound platform for all services at Franklin, and the northbound side was abandoned.
I also know that at one time, the northbound platform was the one that was open, and there was planking over the southbound track, and trains opened their doors on both sides with a much wider turnstile area to the north.
When was the change made?
There was never any planking over the south bound track, only the north bound one. That planking was destroyed by fire, probably in the late 80's. I'm not sure if the fire was electrical or arson in nature.
Bill "Newkirk"
I took this photo the one and only time I ever rode the "original" Franklin Shuttle. I glad they rehabbed the shuttle, but something was really lost once it closed, at least nostalgically.
Chris, did you notice on the abandoned northbound side where the planking was, the original tracks were underneath ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That doesn't look like Franklin on the Franklin Shuttle, because that I always thought was a side platform station.
Looks like it could be one of the stations on the J line; either Norwood Avenue or Crescent Street.
I believe that is somewhere along the old Myrtle Ave. El, west of the Bway-Myrtle Station.
Those are Q-Cars -- its definitely the Myrtle and sometime near the end of its career, I gather.
That has to be somewhere on the old Myrtle Ave el. The buildings look to be in shambles, so it must be near the end of the Myrtle's run around 1969.
Reminds me of Van Sicklen on the J for some reason.
You're right, it's not Franklin, Joe's caption must have been wrong or I screwed it up. But it's definitely a Myrtle El shot, and by looking at the people on the platform it's a fan trip near the end of its life or maybe the last day of service.
But it's definitely a Myrtle El shot, and by looking at the people on the platform it's a fan trip near the end of its life or maybe the last day of service.
It looks to be a fairly warm day based on how the people are dressed. That might be a clue as to whether this is the last day of service.
Yeah, I'm almost certain it's the Myrtle on the last day of Ops...I believe I can see Una Ed Davis, Sr. (aka BigedirtmanL) in the Motorman's cab! (He operated the special fantrip of Q's on the last day).
It would have to be somewhere on the Myrtle because the platform edges run right up to the side of the car. If this was on the Franklin, or on the J (Broadway) line, there would be a large gap between the 9-foot wide Q-car and the platforms that are able to fit 10-foot wide "B"-division cars.
Those little ledges sticking out from the door thresholds were put there to bridge the gap on the upper half of the Myrt (between Broadway and Metropolitan Avenue) where these IRT-sized cars ran alongside the larger BMT cars.
I thought it might be Myrtle/Vanderbilt, the train is westbound, late '60s.
I am going to say that it is Franklin Ave on the Myrtle Ave El. I used to drive down Myrtle Ave. to get to work at MTech when I was on the 4-12 shift. Sumner has projects on the north side and Nostrand has a park on the north side. Franklin Ave. makes the most sense. Hey GP38 maybe I'll head down there next week and send you another updated picture.
Thanks! I enjoyed the last few!
It's definitely Franklin Ave. See this post:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=450657.
The building on the left matches.
I used to go to City Tech on Jay Street and Tillary St for two years before transfering to Baruch. The Myrtle El would have been of great use to me at that point! I had to take the M train to Delancey, and transfered there for the F (faster than taking the M straight to Lawrence Street). I always found it ridiculous to take the subway into Manhattan, just to go back to Brookyn again. And I did the B54 bus once or twice, but hated that. I only drove down Myrtle a few times.
My first year at City Tech, Myrtle Avenue still cut through to Jay Street, and there was a deli I used to go to in the building at the corner of Jay and Myrtle. By my second year, I watched them each day as they slowly tore that row of old tenement buildings down that faced Myrtle, in the spot where MetroTech is now. I wish I took photos!
It's Franklin Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue line. See Joe Korman's Myrtle Ave El page for more pictures.
I was just curious: Were there any Railfans from this board who were railfanning on R36 9630 today at around 12 noon? Reason why I ask is b/c I saw 2 individuals in the storm door of 9630 with a camera in hand when it pulled into QBP going towards Main St. I would've got on the train but I decided to wait and Railfan the only R36 ML Set that was on the road today at that time: 9542! I waited for the train b/c I was on 9440 earlier and knew that train was coming back. And I prefer to ride a RedBird rather than those Cattle-Car R62As.
#9542 7 Flushing Local
"And I prefer to ride a RedBird rather than those Cattle-Car R62As."
well said my brother !! stole my thunder !!!!!!!!!
Well I was on the 7 earlier yesterday.I took the train out of Times Sq. at 9:25AM and god damnit! There were a bunch of delays after 61St-Woodside!I even saw 3 7 trains,all Redbirds, go express past us at 103 and 111Sts!I got so pissed off when I saw that!The train I was on made me miss the 10:07 N20 bus I wanted to take!I took the 10:26 bus and it was 7mins late just like the previous one and I missed the N80 out of Hicksville which left at 11:51!But it was ok in the end,I still managed to ride both the N80/81 which I hadn't done in well over a year.The only disappointment was that I didn't get a chance to go to Green Acres Mall which I had planned to do.Oh well,next time.
It has been planned! The TENTATIVE date is:
Sunday, March 30, 2003 at 11:00AM
This will be a guided tour of the Coney Island complex and will include the overhaul shop, inspection shop, storage yard and master tower. The museum cars will be available to photograph as well. The tour will last 2 - 2 1/2 hours.
This date MAY change. The tour is limited to 25 people. The first 25 SUBTALKERS to RSVP will be admitted. To RSVP, Please send an email to:
RTOControlCenter@aol.com
PLEASE INCLUDE your name and Subtalk handle. I am taking reservations until Monday 2/24/03. If you are interested, Please let me know ASAP.
Mark, I'm sure you are aware that there is already a SubTalk trip scheduled for that day... SubTalk at Branford... see the Upcoming Events section of this website for more information. This shouldn't come as a surprise to you... it's been discussed with some frequency on the board.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You realize that not everyone can get to Branford.
Well aware. It's simply the choice of date... I know that there are folks who would like to do both and won't be able to if they are on the same day. As far as getting to Branford, it's not that difficult to get there by train, and I suspect there will be a car pool or two organized as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To All SubTalkers: Branford is the better deal -- you can get to OPERATE a genuie subway car, something you can't do in Coney Island Yard.
Also, you'll get to spend the day with fellow SubTalkers and relax and chat over dinner afterwards...whereas you only get 2 1/2 hours at Coney Island.
I'll take the Coney Island tour.
Unless you worked there why would anyone want to spend much more 2 1/2 hours at the facility? Oh yeah I forget about some of our fellow Sub-Talkers.
I was at Coney Island Yard up close and personal at the last transit rodeo there.I helped out as best as I could and took a good look at the CI shops and mostly everything that was there.I wouldn't mind being there one more time.
What do you mean, 'I helped out as best as I could'? You're not a worker at CI Yards, so how were you able to 'help out'?
A friend of mine who works at the TA invited me and I helped him out.
Because people who worked there wouldn't want to spend even 2 and a half hours there ;-)
This is getting very interesting.... I won't take anything away from the Coney Island Tour as I have done it and thoroughly enjoyed it, but you can do far more at Branford. Lots of hands on experience. The people do have a right to choose what they prefer.
Let us emphasize this should be made into a pissing contest to see who can get more people to attend their tour/excursion.
-Stef
P.S. I officially have 3/30 off as of this past Tuesday.
"Let us emphasize this should be made into a pissing contest to see who can get more people to attend their tour/excursion. "
Let's not.
Let us emphasize this should be made into a pissing contest...
Should?? Typo, I hope.
P.S. I officially have 3/30 off as of this past Tuesday.
Damn stations will let you put in the work this far in advance? RTO will only let you put in 30 days in advance... and will only tell you "pending" pretty much until the day before.
Yes. I can put in the request 30-60 days before the AVA, but I won't put in for the AVA no later than 7 days before I take off.
We have an automated system which tell us if we awarded our request or denied it. Stations doesn't waste any time!
-Stef
Sorry for the typo.
This should NOT be a pissing contest....
Unless you change the date, I will be going to Branford. Of course I can change my mind, but this makes every Sub-talker's dillema a reality.
Why are all of these trips on a Sunday? Why not a Saturday? That would be better for me than a Sunday.
I doubt I can go on Sunday 3-30 but I'll get back to you and let you know.
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
Why are all of these trips on a Sunday? Why not a Saturday? That would be better for me than a Sunday.
I doubt I can go on Sunday 3-30 but I'll get back to you and let you know.
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
"... this makes every Sub-talker's dillema a reality ..."
Agree with that, as I've been to CI on Transit Museum Tour (I've heard that they are also doing one in March) and it was very enjoyable. If you've never been it surely does pose a dillema. But that's the kind of problem I love in my life ... so much to do, so little time < g >
alright!!!!i,am going.never beem to the coney island yard.
til next time
It's great! I was there back in April or 2001. It was a lot of fun. I won't be going there this time though, but I'm sure that would leave room for someone that never did it.
From the Tower....
In the Shops....
Excuse the darkness, my slide scanner scans dark for some reasons sometimes.
It's great! I was there back in April of 2001. It was a lot of fun. I won't be going there this time though, but I'm sure that would leave room for someone that never did it.
From the Tower....
In the Shops....
Excuse the darkness, my slide scanner scans dark for some reasons sometimes.
Change the stinking date pleeeeese. CED won't send me to CI because I'm the 'jack in the box fix this fix that break in the new guys talk to engineering support the vendors bury the Redbird trainsets do you have a special tool no we won't offer you a cup of coffee thankyou very much.' I love my work. CI Peter
I tought you had Sunday off? I don't think its possable for Mark to change the date he is lucky the TA approved this tour as it is with this highted alert stuff.
I think all those going on this trip should be thankful that mark is making this trip possable.
Not just THIS trip..... but jest be thankful for ANY trip
we can get put on THESE days......
Yeah, its worse than China right now! :-0
As if you've been there recently.
Peace,
ANDEE
i just wanna know,is the coney island tour free?
til next time
What's so bad about the CI Yard Tour and the
Branford event happening on the same date??
Last I recall we had Peggy's Queens Blvd Tour
on the SAME SUNDAY as some Cudahy fellow's lecture
out in Jersey.... we were split back then and yet,
BOTH events went on as planned (with suitable turnout)
!!!GET A GRIP GUYS!!!
This CERTAINLY is not the FIRST time we have TWO
sub-related events fall on the SAME date...
Besides, there's NO real GUARANTEE you're bound to have
a GRAND OLE TIME at Branford.... whereas CI Yard is a place
you DON'T get to go every day or weekend.
Let's just suck in our tummies and be grateful the TA even O-F-F-E-R-E-D us the date.
1southferry9
On my trip in this AM on a Slant on the Brighton Express track we went BIE twice.
Second time we are going fast down the hill into Newkik and CHOU. Almost made the stop marker, was about two doors short on the C/R Board. T/O couldn't recharge, train tripped back by the 2nd to last car.
They opened the front half to transfer to the local, fun thing was once they found the offending car, recharged we beat that local to Church and got the lineup (waving to all that switched trains).
Where is CHOU? I don't see it on the subway map.
Michael
Washington, DC
I don't know if your kiddin about "Where is CHOU?", But anyway CHOU is the sound the train make when it goes BIE. It's all the air rushing out of the train system.
Robert
Seems everyone is just picking on me today.
Lou, you and I work in the same building. I got your back, even though my buddy Flatbush41 got on your nerves earlier.
Let's all work together and stop the flaming!
Purina Cat Chow.....CHOW...CHOW...CHOW...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Meow!!!!
I'm NOT picking on you. I'm responding to your earlier message and don't know where CHOU is located.
Michael
CHOU isn't a place... it's the sound of air brakes being applied.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that's a helpful answer and fits into the context of the original message.
Michael
Escaped from NY last Monday before the brunt of the storm
"Where is CHOU? I don't see it on the subway map."
It's not on the subway map, somewhere in Chinatown.
CHOU MAIN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, while waiting for my <5> at Fulton St. yesterday, I noticed atleast on train of R142's #6691-6700 with running on the (5) with (5) strip maps. I know its commonplace to see (2) cars running on the (5) and vice-versa (I even saw a train of 7000 series R142 on the (2)last night), but does anyone one know if any sets have been transfered from the (2) to the (5)?
The strip maps can be changed easily, becuase the LED strip map display (the lights) is compatible with all IRT routes currently in use. So you can change the strip map, then program the correct route also. Trouble is, they don't bother to change the strip map a lot of times so a #2 train might have the #5 strip map and vice-versa.
All of the strip maps need to be updated, the transfer points indicate service back in 1999 BEFORE the new Franklin Shuttle transfer opened in 10/99.
The strip maps can be changed easily, becuase the LED strip map display (the lights) is compatible with all IRT routes currently in use.
Even the 7?
They may have a strip map but the computer may not be programmed for 11 cars consists on the #7. Also, Corona may not have the space for the parts and maintenance equipment for the R142 trains. Then again, anything goes.
They could always still run 10 car trains on the 7, but I don't think the riders would go for that...
I'm pretty sure Corona is planning to undergo a massive rehabilitation, with the addition of a loop track, new yard leads, replacement of the 3rd rail... I don't care what they do as long as they keep the crossover! I love that thing...
Pooling equipment on the 2/5 is common practice. It's done to meet the needs of service.
As for Cars 6691-6700 on the 5, I can only think that the #2's allotment of R-142s is being reduced.
-Stef
It's pretty common to see train sets on the 2/5 be interchanged; I saw Redbirds in the past with green stickers run on the 2. I know the 2 has 6310-6xxx and the 5 has 6xxx-71xx or whatever it is with R142 sets still not delivered as of yet.
Last night at 34St,I saw a 2 train heading to Brooklyn and it was one of the train's used on the 5.The consist was: 7111-7115/7066-7070.
Hey folks,
I hear that traveling from suburban houses to suburban offices is very tough to do on transit, due to large office grounds, etc., and low population densities. Perhaps the best way to do this might be to take cars along for the ride on the train (there is an Auto Train from Virginia to Florida, but it takes hours to load and put together, and you can't get to the autos from your train seat). In order to do this, we would have to widen rail gauges quite a bit, so cars can be housed and accessible from the inside of the train (which would have, in my daydream, shopping facilities, perhaps casinos in Nevada, office space, restaurants, maybe even a hotel or two). Instead of parking in a station, one parks on a train, and one basically pays the fare to ship himself or herself and his or her car. The bigger the car, the higher the fare (for obvious reasons). Perhaps even a stretch limo might be accommodated, but it would take up several parking spaces, and fares to hold that sort of thing would go through the roof. (Of course, one might also park at the station itself, but it might be tough hitching a ride to your favorite suburban office after the train ride.) The more passengers per car, the lower the fare per passenger. Folks boarding by themselves pay the lowest fares. The gauge would be widened in order to support autos on both sides of the train, which means that we would have to test the effects of a wider-than-standard gauge on rolling stock and other equipment. Also, supporting ridership in a setup where autos take up so much space per passenger can be a problem. Maybe stacking cars on top of one another like slumbercoach cabins?
I'd call my concept the Trilobite, after the extinct animal that helped inspire this vehicle. Like a trilobite, the thing would have three lobes and plenty of segments.
Ah yes, and perhaps the Purple Line in DC will be built in some fashion.......Ah, what could be :)
With my back still aching from a marathon snow shoveling session on Tuesday, my respect for sandhogs, especially those who labored on the original IRT, has been renewed.
I only had to shovel for a few hours and it was for my own benefit (my driveway). My livelihood didn't depend on my back. The original IRT tunnel diggers had to do similar back-breaking work every day, for a low salary, with minimum safeguards and little overall managerial regard for their safety. True, the tunneling shield did some of the work for them but there was a lot of manual sand shoveling too. And their livelihoods depended on their bodies being able to handle their work.
Next time I travel through one of the IRT tunnels, I will think about the sandhogs who worked so hard to get these built.
AMEN to that!!
With my back still aching from a marathon snow shoveling session on Tuesday, my respect for sandhogs, especially those who labored on the original IRT, has been renewed.
I only had to shovel for a few hours and it was for my own benefit (my driveway). My livelihood didn't depend on my back. The original IRT tunnel diggers had to do similar back-breaking work every day, for a low salary, with minimum safeguards and little overall managerial regard for their safety. True, the tunneling shield did some of the work for them but there was a lot of manual sand shoveling too. And their livelihoods depended on their bodies being able to handle their work.
Next time I travel through one of the IRT tunnels, I will think about the sandhogs who worked so hard to get these built.
Not to mention the fact that the sandhogs sometimes had to work in compressed-air environments, which created quite a set of dangers. Most people in 1904 probably were more accustomed to physical labor than is the case today, but even so the IRT sandhogs had it pretty rough.
By the way, from a weight-training standpoint snow shoveling is a good exercise, hitting most major muscle groups with particular emphasis on the deltoids and biceps.
I agree completely.
I would caution those who have not kept in shape, though: doing lots of strenuous physical activity for long stretches after you haven't done it all all for months before, can be hazardous to your health. When in doubt, check with your doctor.
I would caution those who have not kept in shape, though: doing lots of strenuous physical activity for long stretches after you haven't done it all all for months before, can be hazardous to your health. When in doubt, check with your doctor.
Would that many of us could afford that luxury. Unfortunately, when the snow falls, it's got to be shovelled, and that leaves but one alternative: ME. So, bad back, hips, and knees notwithstanding, I spent most of Monday with a shovel in my hand. At least my shoulders still work pretty well... I can send a shovelful of snow flying a long ways! (My shovel is basically a fireman's coal shovel with a long handle... works much better than a conventional snow shovel.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good for you.
Stay safe!
As an experienced property owner with a 700 foot driveway, let me pass some tips when your machinery is not working. Fresh, cold snow
should be shoveled ASAP with a polyethelene scoop or a special aluminum 'backsaver.' Light coatings can be broomed with a palmyra concrete broom. The longer you wait, the more weight you may have to pick up and smaller light weight scoops are in order. My tractor is not in running order and I can't always be present so I have to pay a neighbor to plow heavy drifts. When the snow is hard and dense, I use a square spade. Nothing like having East 180ths 'jet engine blower' to clear a path. CI Peter
"As an experienced property owner with a 700 foot driveway............"
700 feet ? Is that a driveway or a long alley ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to know a Sandhog...he worked in my office till retiring about 7 years ago. Obviously he did not work on the IRT but rather on IND tunnel projects.
He built our Subway with his own two hands. Bravo!
"I used to know a Sandhog...he worked in my office till retiring about 7 years ago. Obviously he did not work on the IRT but rather on IND tunnel projects."
Going back twenty years ago or so, one of my retired tenants was a man named Charlie DeVito. He was born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA and told me once that he worked on the Eight Avenue subway. He was a construction worker by trade. I guess he moved east to New York when jobs for the Eight Avenue subway construction were available.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you look at this page:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_alignment.htm
you'll see that they CLAIM 2nd Ave will have transfers:
* to the E,V,6 @ the 2nd Ave's 54-57 St. station
* to the 7,4,5,6 @ the 2nd Ave's 42 St. station
How will this be done? Block long walks? The existing E,V and 7 platforms are roughly between Lexington and 3rd Avenues.
Queens riders thinking about using 2nd Ave. will have lousy transfers, and will therefore continue to transfer to the Lex instead.
One of the provisions in the 63rd Street line is for a direct route between Queens Boulevard and lower 2nd Avenue. The transfers from the 7 and E/V will be more of use to those coming from the west, despite the block-long walk (we West Siders are unfortunately quite used to them already, with one at 42nd between 7th and 8th and another at 14th between 6th and 7th).
OK, one thought to improve Queens access:
* Have the V use the "non-revenue" connection that will be built to 2nd Ave southbound, and run the V downtown via that link.
Right now, on the Queens Blvd lines, the R uses Broadway, the E uses 8th, and the F uses 6th. The V is the odd one out. Anywhere it goes, something better is already there. Give the V a unique destination.
The upper portion of 2nd Ave. will have two lines; one will go downtown, and one will peel off at 63rd St. to run down Broadway. For the lower portion of 2nd Ave. there will be just one line and plenty of capacity for the V. (The F would go back to using 53rd St.)
Read my posts on the V. The point of the V is to give Queens local passengers direct access to the very popular 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines. The F can't do that. Furthermore, rerouting the V to 63rd would require local passengers bound for 53rd to wait specifically for the R to Queens Plaza, since the V wouldn't stop there anymore. That's a step back from the G!
Besides, your plan would leave 57/6 and Lex/63 unserved.
When (or if) 2nd Avenue opens, I would suggest leaving the current Queens routes in place, at reduced service levels (with the V extended to Brooklyn to fill in for the F), with two additional routes, one local and one express, providing 2nd Avenue access.
"Besides, your plan would Lex/63 unserved."
Lex/63rd would be served by the 2nd Ave express coming from uptown.
Your point is well-taken. There probably would be new services to cover the new possibilities. But that isn't what they're saying, and there won't be any new line if they don't start making a better case for it.
Obviously, this comes down to the need for additional capacity into Queens. The service plan of 2001 which introduced the V increased capacity by 20% and added a new local service. The Second Av subway would add new route flexibility and new route combinations which didn't exist before (and that's always a good thing) and allow load re-distribution (also a good thing) - but it would not add new Queens-bound capacity.
So would the F go south onto 2nd Avenue or stay on 6th?
I would suggest keeping all the current routes as is, with reduced service levels, and adding an additional full-time local and an additional part-time express to 2nd Avenue.
OK, one thought to improve Queens access:
* Have the V use the "non-revenue" connection that will be built to 2nd Ave southbound, and run the V downtown via that link.
Right now, on the Queens Blvd lines, the R uses Broadway, the E uses 8th, and the F uses 6th. The V is the odd one out. Anywhere it goes, something better is already there. Give the V a unique destination.
The upper portion of 2nd Ave. will have two lines; one will go downtown, and one will peel off at 63rd St. to run down Broadway. For the lower portion of 2nd Ave. there will be just one line and plenty of capacity for the V. (The F would go back to using 53rd St.)
(Queens riders thinking about using 2nd Ave. will have lousy transfers, and will therefore continue to transfer to the Lex instead.)
1. Queens Blvd riders will have a direct train through the 63rd St tunnel and down 2nd Ave.
2. #7 train riders will have a moderately inconvenient transfer to the SAS, but they also have a moderately inconvenient transfer to the 4/5/6. The walk to the SAS will be longer (the east end of the 7 is at about 3rd Ave), but the change in elevation will be less, since the SAS will be deep like the 7 and unlike the 4/5/6.
It's Brooklyn riders who may not get such a good deal from the SAS, depending on the transfers they build in (still undecided) downtown.
Another thought to improve Queens access:
* Build a new station on the 7 line between 2nd and 1st Avenues.
As I recall, when this has come up in the past the response was the 7 is at too much of an angle running toward the river to have a station. I believe it is 3%. But it looks like the eastern part of the 7's GCT station is at 3% (part of an old station expansion?). What is the allowable grade for stations? Many stations have slopes, there must be a policy.
The exit on the 1st Ave side would be a boon to waterfront development in Queens and Brooklyn. A new ferry landing on East 42nd could have a direct entry into the subway system, instead of having to use the infernal NY Waterway buses that plod out of E. 34th. That's the problem with being on the East River. Midtown is so close (visually), yet so far away (transit-wise). NY's waterfront could start developing finally. It's embarrasing to compare to what's happening in NJ.
The lack of subways near ferry terminals is unfortunate.
However, as I proposed in another thread a while back, there is already a subway station within 100' of the waterfront, and a very good place for a ferry terminal: Roosevelt Island.
"there is already a subway station within 100' of the waterfront, and a very good place for a ferry terminal: Roosevelt Island"
Didn't see that thread. Interesting. Unfortunately, that enclave would probably resist mightily.
Don't be so sure. They like their subway access.
But if the ferry were to be acceptable, it's terminal would have to be designed VERY sensitively and be as unobstrusive as possible. And, as in all NY politics, there would be political costs...
(Unfortunately, that enclave would probably resist mightily.)
1. Some RI residents would like ferry service to Wall St.
2. Anyone coming out of the subway and onto the ferry or vice versa would never get into the neighborhoods where the residential buildings are. The locals would never see them except in the subway station.
3. The subway already provides access to a small number of unwelcome people who cause trouble (and besides, RI has its own small home grown supply of troublemakers as well). Ferry passengers are far less undesirable by comparison.
4. The station has high capacity escalators and can handle the crowds (as it does very well every 4th of July).
1) The subway already provides access to a small number of unwelcome people who cause trouble (and besides, RI has its own small home grown supply of troublemakers as well).
So your comment doesn't mean diddly-squat. Besides, you can drive onto Roosevelt Island from the Queens side.
2)Ferry passengers are far less undesirable by comparison
There are times when I truly wonder whether people suffer a seizure or are high on crack when they post ignorant nonsense like that.
"The station has high capacity escalators and can handle the crowds (as it does very well every 4th of July)."
Finally, a comment that makes sense.
What are you complaining about?
I was responding to the comment (NOT made by me) that Roosevelt Islanders wouldn't want a ferry terminal. I was discussing the usual issue that people bring up when it comes to new transportation facilities, and noting that none of them applied to Roosevelt Island.
Do you deny that good transportation makes it easier for hooligans to get around? Just because that's no reason to squash a transportation project doesn't make it false and doesn't keep it from being on the minds of people in neighborhoods where a new project is proposed.
As for my comment about ferry passengers being less undesirable than subway passengers, I guess that left a few items unsaid. Passengers transferring from subway to ferry at RI would most likely be rush hour commuters, if only because ferry schedules get pretty sparse at other times; subway passengers at RI come at all times of the day. But I very clearly said that RI wouldn't be likely to get MORE troublemakers as a result of the ferry.
I live in a neighborhood with good transportation, lots of bars and lots of unruly people who come in from the suburbs and the outer boroughs on the weekend. This doesn't make me opposed to the transportation options available, and I'd like to see more, namely the SAS. But it doesn't mean I have to like ALL the people that these nice transportation alternatives bring to my neighborhood.
These people would have come anyway. We just redistribute the load.
Makes sense to me. Maybe the developers of the east side of the East River will get MTA et al. to take a run at this.
I hope so too. They responded positively to the Roosevelt Island station (the new housing there was done in anticipation of the station's opening in 1989).
It would be interesting to compare the grade on the No. 7 line between First and Second Aves. with the grade at the south end of the Rector St. Station on the N/R/ I know the platform there (which was extended south to handle 600-foot trains) drops at least one level before turning to pass underneath both No. 1 Broadway and the IRT 4/5 line at Bowling Green, and is far deeper at Whitehall than it is at the Rector St. exit.
A First Ave. station on the Flushing line wouldn't be level, but it might not be at any more of an angle than Rector's southern platform is.
As for the Brooklyn connections to the Second Ave. line, they'll certainly be better than the Queens connections without a First Ave. station on the & being built. A connection to the Canarsie Line at 14th St. would be easy to built by connecting the new station up with the eastern end of the Third Av. stop on the L. At Houston St., the connection to the western end of the Second Ave. station for the F/V would also be easy to do, and the MTA has made some sort of Grand St. transfer to the B/D one of the priorities of any lower Second Ave. extension. Connections south of there wouldn't be as easy, but depending on the location of the proposed Hanover Square termimal was, a walkway between that and the N/R at Whitehall could be built (which wouldn't be any longer than the transfer between the Second Ave. line and the E/V at 53rd St.). And if the MTA decided to hack a couple of billion off the project and go with the Centre/Nassau St. option, then just about every station on the line downtown would have some sort of Brooklyn transfer, and the line itself could continue to Brooklyn via the Montague tunnel.
"It's Brooklyn riders who may not get such a good deal from the SAS, depending on the transfers they build in (still undecided) downtown."
Not necessarily. If enough riders are taken off the Lex by the SAS, Brooklyn-based IRT riders will have a much better ride, with fewer delays. And that's regardless of whether they ever ride the SAS or not.
(Not necessarily. If enough riders are taken off the Lex by the SAS, Brooklyn-based IRT riders will have a much better ride, with fewer delays.)
In the morning rush, the SAS will primarily reduce southbound crowding on the Lex. How does that help northbound riders?
On the other hand, there are some committed benefits for Brooklyn riders that I had forgotten about:
- Transfer from the L at 14th.
- Transfer from the F at 2nd Ave.
- Some kind of a transfer at Grand St, even if not cross-platform.
It would be nice of course if they also built connections to the A at Fulton and the J/M/Z at Bowery. But then again, it would be nice if they actually build it at all.
"In the morning rush, the SAS will primarily reduce southbound crowding on the Lex. How does that help northbound riders? "
Southbound trains do eventually have to come back the other way, don't they? What do you suppose happens to your northbound express if it is in the form of a train that is 10-15 minutes late getting into Brooklyn?
(What do you suppose happens to your northbound express if it is in the form of a train that is 10-15 minutes late getting into Brooklyn?)
Delays on the Lex almost always (except when something really serious happens) take the form of one train being fed into the pipeline every 135 seconds, while one train gets out of the pipeline at the other end every 150 seconds. This lengthens people's trips, especially as the rush hour progresses, but still provides a steady stream of trains to Brooklyn.
The southbound crush at GCT starts at about 7:45. The first train likely to be delayed gets to Utica Ave about 8:30. By that time they're already starting to take trains out of service because they don't need to send every train back to Manhattan. Some just sit in Brooklyn till it's time for the evening rush.
Oh, please. Quit whining.
-Hank
So you support spending $16 billion plus for something that is largely inaccessible to other boroughs?
"So you support spending $16 billion plus for something that is largely inaccessible to other boroughs? "
You've missed the point entirely.
1) Riders from the Bronx have an easy transfer at 125 Street
2) By taking a lot of Manhattan crowds off the Lex, you've just made the Lex a lot more accessible (read: seating and standing room, fewer delays) to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
There, we've already covered three boroughs out of four even without any transfers except for 125 Street.
Would you like to ask your question again?
"1) Riders from the Bronx have an easy transfer at 125 Street"
That's the point. You have to transfer, even where it should have gone up and captured one of the Bronx lines. As designed, 2nd Ave is a super M15 bus for Manhattan residents. Other areas benefit from good transit in Manhattan, but only indirectly. It's not worth the $16 billion.
Would you like to ask your question again?
How did (will) other boros benefit from 63rd Street connector, Jamaica subway and ESA?
Arti
"How did (will) other boros benefit from 63rd Street connector, Jamaica subway and ESA?"
Point well-taken. Projects never benefit everyone. But for $16 billion, there needs to be more effectiveness. My vote, based upon what they've told us, is to build the Stubway and call it a day.
* Of the 3 miles or so to, nearly a mile of it is already in place. Would cost "only" several billion (about as much as ESA).
* The greatest crush loading on the 4/5 is uptown, which is where the Stubway would make the most benefit.
The MTA didn't want to build the entire thing, and were pressured into it. I'm thinking they were right.
"Point well-taken. Projects never benefit everyone. But for $16 billion, there needs to be more effectiveness. My vote, based upon what they've told us, is to build the Stubway and call it a day. "
I would certainly be grateful for the Stubway to be built. New Yorkers have made it clear that this is not sufficient, but let's be realistic: the Stubway is the first segment to be built and the first to open. I won't argue with anybody when they start the TBM drilling.
«The greatest crush loading on the 4/5 is uptown, which is where the Stubway would make the most benefit»
It obviously shows, that you have not taken a rush hour 6 train. Also there are huge hospitals lining 1st Avenue all the way to 14th Street.
I'd also suggest you take M15 during any time of a day.
Arti
"It obviously shows, that you have not taken a rush hour 6 train"
I said "greatest" crush loading. The latest MTA stats I've seen show the largest crowds on the Lex being on the 4/5 between 86th and 42nd. The 6 is less crowded. Perhaps someone has the latest V/C ratios for these lines.
The point is not whether there is a need for more transit, it's what is realistic. And 2nd Avenue below the Stubway segement isn't cost-effective.
Why would it be more cost effective above 63rd Street than below. Especially taking into account, that below is where the employment is? There's also quite high residential density and it's growing.
Arti
I'm going off of the SAS DEIS that said it would cost something like $4 billion to do the Stubway. Now the whole thing is $16.8 billion.
Why is the original section more cost-effective? Guesses:
* A mile of the Stubway already exists.
* The bell-mouth straight to express Broadway service already exists.
* The tangle of tunnels to continue southward don't exist, and look expensive.
* Between the 50s and Water Street, the densities really drop off.
* The DEIS had low cost estimates.
* Between the 50s and Water Street, the densities really drop off.
50ties is where the commercial area starts, so that would be the destination of the riders. Density really drops off after 14th Street, but again having subway there could allow for rezoning and redevelopment.
Maybe lower 2nd Ave should branch off the L :-)
Arti
"Maybe lower 2nd Ave should branch off the L :-)"
Interesting. That's the kind of thing they need to think more about. Maybe bringing the Stubway south a bit more will be the compromise.
...but again having subway there could allow for rezoning and redevelopment.
Interesting. Whenever I go over subway proposals and changes, I wonder if they are designed for relieving crowds, allowing rezoning/redevelopment or a combination of the 2. Posters who partake in this never mention this crucial fact and people will see at different levels. The end result is just as drastic as the start.
Increased zoning density along Second Ave between 14th and Grand will happen only over the dead bodies of hundreds of community activists. They will also have Silver on their side because he would never survive a Democratic primary campaign if he supported increased zoning density.
The area supports a subway. They do NOT support 30 story luxury high rises. There's plenty of new 10-story luxury construction going up that conforms to the existing zoning.
"Between the 50s and Water Street, the densities really drop off. "
That's a business destination more so than residential. That's where passengers aree headed.
Do you live in New York, by the way, and if so, where?
No, Simon lives in London. And BTW, I have noticed that you have become much more confrontational since your move to KC. Just an observation.
Peace,
ANDEE
But this is a different Simon than Simon Billis?
"And BTW, I have noticed that you have become much more confrontational since your move to KC. Just an observation."
You think?
The post you just responded to contained a question posed from curiosity, not hostility. Perhaps I should have said so.
For my part, I haven't noticed any change in your posting habits - which have, on a regular basis, included a fair amount of crude name-calling.
That's my Ronnie. I've always loved your talking, though I'm a bit iffed you haven't replied to my posting of information from a poster at RD about the entire V issue. Find it and post about it, please!
Post the question again here, and I'll try to answer it.
Making me do everything! Oh well, here it is. It's a post made by the poster of how he/she thought V service was detrimental to F service.
(From a couple of days ago)
Ok then, Ronnie. Here, I manahed to get what this poster said. Here we go:
Poster 'GreatOne' posted on the Rider Diaries in Express M's thread over there:
We need Brooklyn F riders to come in here and protest this entire argument. I said it a million times before and I'll say it a million and one. In order for there to be an existance of a V train, F service had to take a cut. Not just a slight cut either, but a significant cut to allow the V and it's supposed 6 to 10 minute headways to fit in between the F schedule. This means F service in Queens took a cut, but not many people notice a difference since E service has been beefed up to replace the missing F trains in Queens. This means the E has been more crowded though as a result, but it's typical for Queens Blvd. Once again not many people notice that.
F service has been cut on 6th Avenue, but once again not many people notice that on 6th Avenue since they have a choice of both the F and V on the same track meaning the same amount of F service they received before December 2001 they are still receiving in the combination of both the F and V. Not so for those past 2nd Avenue and on to Brooklyn. An observant F rider in Brooklyn will tell you that there is less service which of course there is. I will tell you because I've been riding the F to Brooklyn in the evenings and I seriously notice the difference between now and before 12/01. You used to be able to board an F to Brooklyn during the evening rush. Now it's a battle. Not to mention that in comparison to the morning rush where service is being increased. Service is being decreased during the evening rush. No V in Brooklyn and less F service overall without any other line to help the F on Culver means less Brooklyn F service. This is the argument.
The whole idea that the Q would make more sense is that the Q would help out in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn. Unlike the V which would never go from Queens to Brooklyn unless there was an increase in R-46 rolling stock which won't happen for years. Although there is an increase in R-40M rolling stock in Coney Island which would make sense for a Q to Queens run.
That's the whole thing. Does it hold any validity?
No, the argument isn't valid. F trains still ran on average every 4 minutes or so after the V service began. Not a big deal. The extra E's are very nice, however, and welcome.
V trains took the place of G trains in the tunnel. They operate on local tracks. Yes, people now have a choice of both F and V on the same track, meaning they have an opportunity to use the train which will most efficiently take them to their preferred station. This is more efficient than the previous arrangement, and together, F and V trains provide more service than before.
I took plenty of F trains after V service began. Never had to wait more than 5 minutes for one, ever.
Hmm, I really wish you'd take the time to post at RD and set them staight! :D I remember the time you signed the Strappies' petition for the fare hike. That shows you're dedicated.
RD tends to draw a lot of protester types. It's a way to vent.
Well, I'm sure you're one of them, unless you can prove me wrong. :)
Why are you so reluctant? Since you thought the argument I gave you was invalid to you, do you think you should show them a thing or 2. RD isn't that bad.
I didn't say it was.
I did post there a few times, then forgot what my password was and didn't generate another. I used the same handle I have here.
Really?
You can always email them for password help, you know.
Thanks to a recent upgrade of the boards itself, I was able to find you handle. By far, you got yourself in some real heat from a poster by the name of 'NYCLover.'
You never cease to make me laugh!
I don't know if that's good or bad...
Yeah, 'condenscending and insinuating' you were called... Why I never thought the day! My own Ronnie!?!?
There is a fine line.
On the one hand, it is important to treat people, in general, with respect, and assume that you need not talk down to them.
On the other hand, people (myself included) are human. One pet peeve that I have is when I encounter someone who is clearly posting out of ignorance and arrogance, or malice, or dishonesty, and obviously doesn't care. In the heat of discussion, I have responded at times to this kind of posting with a tone that could be considered condescending. Except we should consider context.
But of course that's all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
What the hell, it's a message board.
(But of course that's all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?)
Yes, and sometimes what looks like ignorance to you is actually that a different subject is being addressed than you think is being addressed, or the context is one you didn't notice, or the poster is explaining what other people (who may in fact be ignorant) are thinking.
All of those are always possible.
Well I can throw a kuddo or two your way on this Ronnie. You haven't yet grown tired of having me wax poetic about my magnificent Sea Beach, so you are showing great restraint in that area. Of course, it might be that deep down you are a closet Sea Beach fan but would rather let me do the heavy work while you sit back and reap in the glory. Anything to that?
Absolutely right!
But it's a labor of love for you. Do it to your heart's content!
Good show Ron. There's always room for one more on Sea Beach Fred's N train parade.
(That's the whole thing. Does it hold any validity?)
In a word, no.
Consider the morning rush. F trains FROM Jamaica were cut from 18 per hour to 15 per hour. This is only for the hour 7 AM to 8 AM at Jamaica, not earlier. By the time those peak trains get to CI and reverse, the rush hour is over.
F trains from CI were NOT CUT at all. There were approx. 14 in the peak hour and still are.
(Consider the morning rush. F trains FROM Jamaica were cut from 18 per hour to 15 per hour. This is only for the hour 7 AM to 8 AM at Jamaica, not earlier. By the time those peak trains get to CI and reverse, the rush hour is over. F trains from CI were NOT CUT at all. There were approx. 14 in the peak hour and still are.)
That's the fact. Brooklyn F service is the same as it ever was, and 14 trains at peak hour and 8 off peak isn't bad by Brooklyn standards.
I think F express V local service could fill, by pulling people off the Sea Beach and West End. Though what would be the point of that?
I still say the only way to get F express is to split the F 7 and 7, with 7 running local to Church and 7 running express to Church than local. The stations closer in would also get the G, giving them 13 trains vs. today's 14, though with a need to climb some stairs at Hoyt to transfer. The further out stations would get fewer, but faster trains. V service would be nice, however. Pehaps if they built more towers on the west side of Ocean Pkwy...
"I still say the only way to get F express is to split the F 7 and 7"
Minor thought:
If you cut nearly 20 minutes off half the F trains, you are actually cutting total train time in service. That gives you the luxury of extending a few Vs to Church Ave. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I would think that instead of 14 Fs from CI, you could easily have 8 trains from CI and 8 from Church at no extra cost.
One note: except for the J/Z, I can't think of any service with less than 16 tph that is split into either local/express or skip-stop.
The 1/9 drops to 15 tph or possibly even 12 tph during rush hours, yet skip-stop is still in effect.
And, of course, there are off-peak examples of express-local pairs with 12 tph total or less. Late nights, CPW and Broadway BMT each have a 3 tph local and a 3 tph express, and even Queens Boulevard, with its three late night services, has only 9 tph total.
You're right, I forgot a few examples of express or skip stop service with very low combined tph.
So the obvious question is: why do people in some neighborhoods accept express service that cuts down tph at the local stations to abysmal levels, while in other neighborhoods (e.g., along the Culver Line, along QB east of Continental, and on the Astoria Line) they protest so vigorously that NYCT abolishes the express service?
Some lines have very high passenger counts at express stations and very low passenger counts at local stations. Especially if some of the more distant stations are busy ones, those lines are good candidates for lots and lots of express service.
Other lines have a lot of local ridership, or have enough ridership from close in that the express wouldn't be of much benefit to those who could use it. Those lines are good candidates for lots and lots of local service.
One interesting question worth considering: Take a line with an express track or two (whether or not there is actually express service in place). Are the express stations busier than the local stations? If there is express service, would the express stations be busier than the local stations even if there weren't? (It's impossible to get a direct answer, but it might be possible to reach a prediction based on outside factors, like population density and proximity to other subway stations.)
I asked this question when I was on a W train that ran "express on the local" on the West End to make up time (after being stuck behind a work train that was waiting for its lineup for ten minutes), and we stopped at the express stops, even though, since we were on the local track, we could have stopped anywhere. Well, I looked up the numbers, and it turns out that the busiest West End stops are 9th, 36th, Bay Parkway, and Stillwell. How convenient! So a West End express service might be useful.
"One interesting question worth considering: Take a line with an express track or two (whether or not there is actually express service in place). Are the express stations busier than the local stations? If there is express service, would the express stations be busier than the local stations even if there weren't?"
I always thought that in general yeah, that's the pattern. Wasn't the planning done with the different loading potential of major streets vs minor streets taken into consideration? 34th Street is wider than 33rd Street. 14th Street is wider than 8th Street. For whatever reason the express stops in Manhattan are located on the busier, wider streets. Makes sense to me.
(Take a line with an express track or two (whether or not there is actually express service in place). Are the express stations busier than the local stations?)
Funny you should mention that. On the Culver, 7th Avenue and Church Avenue are busier than the other stations. But the F intersects major bus lines at those points, and the land use is denser. My guess is that is a consequence of the express stops being located based on patterns that had already been established.
Getting back to TPH and when express service makes sense, 8 tph would not seem "fair" to me without the G running also. Though not useful for everyone, having the G -- with its transfer at Hoyt Schemerhorn (albiet with a climb and crossover) mitigates the decline in TPH.
Of course, if you think of the N and R as branches of one line, you have express/local service with 16 -- 12 at mid-day.
Your generalization doesn't follow -- there are lots of local stations at wide streets. In my neighborhood, 96th and 72nd are no wider than 86th and 79th; the express stations are busier than the local stations only because they're express stations. And what about 23rd, a local stop on all lines but just as wide as 14th and 34th?
Also, street width doesn't have much of an impact on station business if most of that business is walk-up. The three busiest local stations on the line are 59th, 50th, and 66th.
I concur with those observations. Even as I was writing them, the obvious exceptions to the wide streets = busier streets = busier subway stations were in my thoughts. I'll usually put the qualifier "generally" into statements like that. If you examine the system there is to SOME extent an adherence to that rule. As far as the 23rd Street situation, I have to conclude that the presence of a "wide street" doesn't necessarily mean there will be an express station on it. Obviously, there were other considerations given to the size of Manhattan streets. The street pattern along with high population and business density of Manhattan probably, on a traffic flow design basis, require the presence of more crosstown lanes every 8 to 10 blocks. The history of Manhattan includes those periods when twenty or more blocks uptown meant you were "leaving town". That legacy had in no small measure an effect on the current infrastructure. Why Twenty Third was passed in favor of 34th as a shopping and business hub is beyond me. But I'm sure Pennsylvania Stations' location had a lot to do with that pattern.
Another aspect to this issue: the location of transfer points vis-a-vie local and express stations. "Logically", you'd expect points where two different lines intersect to be express stations. As indication of the complexity of the NY subway system, I find it intriguing to have situations where on a express/local ROW there is a transfer point accesable ONLY via one of the local stations.
Another aspect to this issue: the location of transfer points vis-a-vie local and express stations. "Logically", you'd expect points where two different lines intersect to be express stations. As indication of the complexity of the NY subway system, I find it intriguing to have situations where on a express/local ROW there is a transfer point accesable ONLY via one of the local stations.
Yes, that is interesting, however, that has to do with the fact that the subway system infastructure was built by three different (and competing) entities. In most cases, where there is a transfer point only at the local station, it is usually where BMT meets IND, or IRT meets IND, or BMT meets IRT, etc. Of course when it was combined and the transfer connection made, it leaves you with those seemingly unlogical spots for transfers in a unified system.
One exception I can think of: the 6th Ave express was built long after the unification of the subway system, but they still built the 14th St station as a local, despite the Canarsie line being right there and very easy to connect to.
On the other hand, they went out of their way to convert the IRT Lex/59th St station into an express stop after they made the connection with the BMT.
One exception I can think of: the 6th Ave express was built long after the unification of the subway system, but they still built the 14th St station as a local, despite the Canarsie line being right there and very easy to connect to.
Also true, however, the 6th Ave express isn't much of an express as it is. They had to draw the line somewhere, otherwise every station on the line would be an express station. ALthough, I would consider 14th to be a fairly important station. I think the purpose of the 6th Ave express was built more for the purpose of expanding capacity on the line, rather than express service. After all 23rd and 14th are the only local stations on the whole main part of the line - hardly an express line. With that reasoning I guess they might as well have made 14th an express station, although maybe it would have been hard with PATH nearby, I don't know.
(With that reasoning I guess they might as well have made 14th an express station, although maybe it would have been hard with PATH nearby, I don't know.)
It would have cost extra money. The 6th Ave express tracks are approx 4 levels down, whereas the L is 3 levels down, the F is 2 levels down, and the PATH is 1.25 levels down. They would have had to excavate a station way down there with all the work that requires.
That would have made quite a mess. Not to mention requiring another few years before anybody could use it.
Most IRT-BMT transfers are express on both. It's the IND that seemed to go out of its way to make transfers difficult.
Yup, our good friend Hylan at work.
Actually, you are right. Much of the BMT and IRT was built at the same time, and during the Dual Contracts, so a little bit more planning went into making the potentially busy transfer stations on either subway companies lines express stations.
Only one little problem: that Bergen Street interlocking (coming from Jay leading to the express track) is OOS, and thus the express track is inoperable from just north of Bergen to just north of 4th Avenue.
Yep, and that's the key. Get that interlocking working. I'd say you could worry about bringing back the station later. I think passengers would accept non-stop service from Jay St to 7th Ave provided they have enough local service. Better yet, would it be feasible to eliminate 7th Ave as an express stop and go non-stop to Church? I ask this because otherwise, the Culver Express would be packed from everybody up to Church and then also Fort Hamilton, 15 St and 7th Ave because I'm sure most of those passengers will get off their local and wait for an express. Meanwhile the Culver Local would go into Manhattan only with 4th Ave, Carroll, Bergen, and Jay.
(Better yet, would it be feasible to eliminate 7th Ave as an express stop and go non-stop to Church?)
That's the way I would do it.
An interesting point. Say there were really only 7-8 F trains south of Church. Then lots of people further out, who now have to stop in Brownstone Brooklyn but get seats, would have to stand. Would that be worth it?
Those of us closer in would have to wait a little longer, or transfer to go onto Manhattan (from the G), but would be more likely to get seats. I've said that since I'm close I don't care about the seats. I see the F express as a benefit to others, with a minimized cost to me and my neighbors. But would the others give up the seat to get the faster ride from Church to Jay?
"But would the others give up the seat to get the faster ride from Church to Jay?"
Yes, I believe many New Yorkers put time conservation over personal comfort.
Why do you think they'd do that? Only in Queens do local passengers jump ship en masse at each express station for an express train that isn't already waiting across the platform. From 4th to Jay, the express would save about two minutes (about 30 seconds per local stop skipped). If the express doesn't show up within two minutes -- and it doesn't, on average, unless the express runs at 15 tph or more -- intelligent passengers will stay on the local, as long as it goes where they're going.
("Between the 50s and Water Street, the densities really drop off. "
That's a business destination more so than residential. That's where passengers aree headed.)
The areas east and west of the proposed SAS route are highly residential from 39th St south to Fulton St. Of course, there are some big exceptions, like the hospitals, Police Headquarters, etc. Only Fulton and south, and 39th to 60th, are predominantly business.
14th to Canal is mostly low rise residential zoning (with buildings over 10 stories being the excpetion rather than the rule) while in other areas there are lots of high rise residential buildings.
By the way, if the SAS came with upzoning of the Lower East Side/East Village as a requirement (as was suggested by someone as a way of improving the financing), then you would hear a howl of protest so loud it would reach to Albany and threaten Shelly Silver's career. People here are highly pro-subway, but not in favor of 30 story luxury high rises.
"By the way, if the SAS came with upzoning of the Lower East Side/East Village as a requirement (as was suggested by someone as a way of improving the financing), then you would hear a howl of protest so loud it would reach to Albany and threaten Shelly Silver's career. People here are highly pro-subway, but not in favor of 30 story luxury high rises. "
Yes, true.
"Do you live in New York, by the way, and if so, where?"
Big talk for a Kansas City resident.
Yes indeed. Brave talk for a (NOT!) Kansas City Chief...
I miss New York already. Lucky I got to visit every corner of it on transit for so many years.
Life was good.
Yeah, maybe you should change your name to the now more appropriate:
RonInKansas!
:-P
Do you have to rub it in? :0)
I'm trying to convince myself that Johnson County Transit is a real bus (buses run on contract by Laidlaw Transportation Co.). Rush hour service only. One of the line brochures describes exactly one run during the day.
It's too bad Kansas City doesn't have a rail transit system. The street pattern is made for it, and you do get a sense of "being in the city" in a few spots. Perhaps the in-town density could be encouraged to increase, and utilize the perfectly good street architecture. I could see it getting Greenwich Village-like.
If it encouraged more pedestrian-friendly development, that would be nice. I can't even begin to describe how weird it feels to be walking around places like the Plaza and Westport, and be the only one walking on that block. I can see people in the restaurants and stores, but nobody on the street.
A sidewalk hot dog vendor just set up shop nearby. I'll be watching to see how long he keeps it up.
One during the day? Damn that really sucks bro. I remember when I went to school in Rochester, NY, I couldn't take it up there, bus service was slightly more frequent.
And not a Brightliner or Slant to be found.
How recent are these stats?
I've only seen stats from 1996, somewhat outdated by now, but the 6 was the most crowded IRT line, followed by the 1/9, and only then the 4/5 (and then the 2/3, the 7, the Brooklyn 4/5, and the Brooklyn 2/3, in that order).
That the 6 is crowded at all suggests that much if not most of the crowding is born in Manhattan itself. Wouldn't most Bronx 6 passengers transfer to the express at 125th?
"How recent are these stats?"
1995. (From the 2000 ESA DEIS.)
Then my 1996 stats are more recent, though only slightly.
See posts 396649 and 396806.
(See posts 396649 and 396806)
The numbers in post 396649 are quite low. Where are these measurements taken (if you say where, I can't find it)?
They're my calculations based on the Weekly Cordon Count 1996, released by NYCT Operations Planning. Sorry, I don't think it's available on the web anywhere; I have it in book form.
The cordon runs along 60th Street (except for the M31, where it's on 61st Street) and along the two rivers. Measurements are taken at the subway station immediately prior to the cordon crossing on each line in either direction -- in the case of 396649, Bowling Green.
Excellent. More sensitive data, being by hour.
I had hoped there was a treasure trove of this kind of data out there that I hadn't found. Apparently they keep this close to the vest. The SDEIS should have more. BTW, it seems past due (2 years now):
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_sched.htm
It gets better! If I felt like it, I could redo the computation in 15-minute intervals by service (e.g., 4 vs. 5 rather than all expresses lumped together). I also have the bus data. But I'd have to do it all by hand, since I only have it in print.
Not sure what the relative crowding of the 4/5 and the 6 has to do with this at all. Both are very crowded, and the SAS (even as a stubway) will relieve crowding on both.
What is definitely true is that the crowding on the 6 drops off much more than the density of the 4/5 south of GCT.
"That's the point. You have to transfer, even where it should have gone up and captured one of the Bronx lines"
That's a triviality, especially considering that 125 Street is a terminal. Not even worth the electrons you spent to argue it.
"As designed, 2nd Ave is a super M15 bus for Manhattan residents. Other areas benefit from good transit in Manhattan, but only indirectly."
Not true (since there will be transfer facilities), but even indirect benefits are plenty good enough.
"It's not worth the $16 billion."
You're entitled to your opinion, but several million people have clearly and unequivocally said just the opposite. You've been outvoted.
"Would you like to ask your question again?"
It was your question - it's your problem if you don't like the answer.
"That's a triviality, especially considering that 125 Street is a terminal. Not even worth the electrons you spent to argue it"
A "triviality" which was in all the earlier 2nd Ave. plans.
"You're entitled to your opinion, but several million people have clearly and unequivocally said just the opposite. You've been outvoted."
Evidence? If the full-length has been decided by "millions", when was the ground-breaking?
The ground-breaking is in 2004.
"The ground-breaking is in 2004."
I know that's their goal. Do they have the approvals? Do they have $16 billion?
Just found the answer to my question. Somewhat ewsworthy, it's at a new thread:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=450533
(As designed, 2nd Ave is a super M15 bus for Manhattan residents.)
How often have you ridden the M15 bus?
It is not actually a viable transportation option unless you have large amounts of time on your hands. Because of traffic, the buses bunch up terribly (you wait 15 minutes and then 3 come at once) and then they take forever to get you where you are going.
Anyone working in one of the huge buildings on 3rd Ave in the 40s and living in the Bronx will save massive amounts of time by taking a subway to 125th and switching to the SAS there. Ditto people living in the east Bronx and working on the west side; they'll take the SAS Q line extension to Broadway.
I'm not saying there isn't a benefit to the full-length. I'm saying it isn't worth $16 billion. Build the Stubway at a fraction of the cost, obtain most of the benefits, and move on.
Hylan should have built it decades ago to crush the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els. But he didn't, and we can't afford the thing under today's circumstances.
It's all irrelevant anyhow, as the chances that the SAS actually will get built are laughable.
Is it me or is it that Queens always seemed to be an afterthought in the TA's thinking about subway transportation in the city? It does seem to me hearing all the complaints over the past few years that the borough does seem fourth on the totem pole in importance. Queens has never seemed to get its fair share of the pie. Brooklyn is well represented, as it should be, by the BMT, IND and IRT, and the latter has a great span in the Bronx. Manhattan has it all. Queens seems to be another matter. Except for Queens Blvd, there doesn't seem to be much subway routes save Astoria and Flushing lines. And large tracts of Queens has nothing at all despite growing populations the past 50 years. Or is this all my imagination?
"Brooklyn is well represented, as it should be, by the BMT, IND and IRT, and the latter has a great span in the Bronx."
Queens is the least subway-served borough (except Staten Island).
But before we give Queens more service, we have to fix the Sea Beach Line.
"But before we give Queens more service, we have to fix the Sea Beach Line." OK Ron, your payment for this testimonial is in the mail.
The IND Second System would have addressed the lack of Queens service.
Brooklyn is well represented because of two things:
- it was a major city in its own right, leading to the development of downtown Brooklyn elevated lines
- Coney Island was sufficient incentive for privately owned excursion railroads to be built to serve early hotels (owned by the same companies that built the railroad).
--Mark
Good post Mark. And be advised that though I lived most of my New York years in Queens, I was Brooklyn to the bone---and spent a good deal of my time there. I could never begrudge Brooklyn a thing but I would like to see subway service expand into eastern Queens where there isn't any such transit.
By god I've got it!
We can close the Sea Beach line and with the money and cars saved from serving that line we'll build Queens more subways! Maybe the MTA can auction off the Triplexes and the rest of the museum fleet to help pay for the costs of building all that they ever wanted.
Hehe, just kidding, but you had to know you'd get something along those lines, right?
With no offense to anybody on this board who might like either line, does evidence prove that it is necessary to have both the West End AND the Sea Beach in operation. Would it possibly make more sense to put all three trains (B/W, M, N) on the same line and close off the other?
(Does evidence prove that it is necessary to have both the West End AND the Sea Beach in operation. Would it possibly make more sense to put all three trains (B/W, M, N) on the same line and close off the other?)
Sort of. Close one, and some people would have to take the bus to the train. Also, the West End is in the better place and has the most riders, but the Sea Beach is the better line -- in an open cut, and covering the express for longer on 4th Avenue.
All it all, it wouldn't make sense to build it that way today, but I don't think you'd save enough money to make a closing worth while.
Well, saying you do close one of the lines: The tracks that it had at CI could become bypass tracks and increase the manueverability through Stillwell. Also, it could make up a tun of storage space. And trains can come out either way, the CI side for Brighton/Culver, or the 59th/4th side for put-ins.
I just realized that when I wrote 59th/4th I gave away the line I was thinking of.
Sure, run them all on the Sea Beach tracks. Otherwise forget it.
No double dribble there Mr. Dobner. You get a slam dunk for that. Yes, I would expect some of my Subtalk colleagues to chime in with something along your line of thought. I'm surprised those who know me well haven't heaved in with more of what you said. But, oh no, leave my Sea Beach alone. I'm going to try and get Dubya to declare it a national historical treasure and get federal money to make it a showplace and the signature line of the New York Subway System, which I think it should be anyway. How's that for chutspah?
I definitely agree with you Fred. Queens os the most lacking in subway service, with SI being last, but who really cares. I seriously doubt seeing any real subway connection toward there within a reasonable amount of time so forget them for the moment.
As mentioned by Mark Feinman, the IND's ill-fated Second System would have worked wonders for Queens, extending service along the northern and eastern Queens, where right now bus routes are making up for the lack of subways, resulting in gastly crowding. Unfortunately, the stock market crash/depression doomed it all.
Even though Queens has more routes than the Bronx does, the Bronx has its routes spread out more equally, allowing more efficiency. Not to mnention that Brooklyn and Manhattan have already sunk themselves in more than enough service. Realizing that the Queens Blvd. lines are the 2nd crowded in the system after the Lex. lines, one has to wonder how longer this agony will go. Supposedly, the problem was fixed by the creation of the V, and I support it with the majority of the posters on here agreeing with me, save for the Strappies and 'their' reasoning.
If anything, Queens' layout of lines is so insufficient, I wonder how it will manage to bear the added development that has been coming here for the last decade or so. Long Island City, Astoria, Woodside, Flushing and several more areas have been blooming and most of the development had been band-aided with incessant bus routes that never seem to be empty with passengers. Queens needs a long overdue rehabilitation of its subway lines. Reevaluate the problems and realize that it needs help, subway wise or it may be doomed.
This is a flaky thread!
No extensions can be made or added to the outlying boros until there is a place for them to go to in Manhattan.
ALL EXISTING LINS AND CROSSINGS ARE FULL (albeit inefficent)
I'd not have selected Second Avenue as my first new line, but new lines need to be built in Manhattan so that new lines from the boros have a place to go.
How would you like a new line to be built in Queens only to have them funnel throught existing tunnels and on existing lines with the associated delays and reductions in service across the board that this would require?
SEVERAL new FULL LENGTH subways are needed complete with trunk lines and crossings. All we gotta do is figure how to fund them. I do not think that FEDERAL FUNDING is appropriate. I think that the FED should be OUT of all highway funding. Instead Collect Fuel Taxes Regionally, and each region determines how to support transportation.
Heck, NOBODY even wants new highways anymore, and you cannot plan to bring more CARS into Manhattan for the same reason that we have trouble bringing new trains into the city: NO PLACE TO GO!
Fortunately it is easier to build more subways in manhattan than it is to build more avenues!
Don't wait for the FED to pay, just go out and buy it yourselves. Subways last for hundreds of years, there is NOTHING WRONG with a bond issue that will pay it off in Fifty Years. It is OK for your great grandchildren to pay for these new subways... after all YOU ARE RIDING on the subways that your grandfathers built! Infrastructure costs money, and it is OK to spread the costs of construction over several decades. BUT DO IT! It is not a federal issue, for get the feds! It ain't their affair.
Elias
(No extensions can be made or added to the outlying boros until there is a place for them to go to in Manhattan.
ALL EXISTING LINS AND CROSSINGS ARE FULL (albeit inefficent))
There is a ton of spare capacity everywhere except on the Lex and Queens Blvd.
63rd St, 14th street, and Rutgers tunnels and the WB are all running at 60% of capacity or less, as will the Manhattan Bridge and Montague Tunnel once both sides of the bridge are open. Even the 60th St, Cranberry and Clark St. tunnels are only at about 75%. CPW and Broadway on the upper west side are at 70% or less (except the CPW express track, which is at 85%).
In the CBD, the 8th Ave, 7th Ave, 6th Ave, Broadway, and Nassau St lines are all running at 70% or less of capacity (except 6th Ave local tracks and Broadway express tracks, with the latter being reduced once the MB reopens).
With CPTC (which is easier to implement than new lines), all these capacities will increase further, hopefully to 40 tph but certainly to 36 tph.
What's lacking is not capacity, but serving area. Some fairly dense neighborhoods are just a long slow bus ride from a subway stop.
The lack of Second Avenue service to Queens is a result of the failure of the original MTA plan.
Under that plan, the 63rd Street tunnel was supposed to connect to a "super express" on the LIRR tracks and/or a new line through Southwest Queens (ie. Archie Bunker Land) on the Montauk Branch. The tunnel would have served two lines from Queens, one of which would turn down 6th Avenue (ie. the current "F") and the other would turn down Second Avenue, taking the place of the line that diverges off to the BMT Broadway Line. Thus, there was to be two services both north and south of 63rd Street on Second Avenue.
The new lines in Queens were never built. Part of this was budgetary, but part of it has to do with the race and class politics of Queens. Remember, the neighborhoods stunned the MTA by mobilizing AGAINST the subuway, worring about who it would bring in. Queens is a vastly different place today, but bureaucratic memories are long, and in any event a proposed extension of the Astoria line is also dying out due to community opposition in Astoria. So the MTA is proposing high-hat commuter rail to benefit Queens, not new subways.
As it is, the 63rd Street line MUST serve 6th Avenue, because 57th Street station has no service if it doesn't. So the connection to the Second Avenue line, while it will be built, is proposed as a non-revenue connection, leaving only one service south of the Stubway.
The only way it could be done differently is to run one local service and one express service off Queens Boulevard through both the 53rd Street tunnel and the 63rd Street tunnel: there would be no Queens Boulevard service other than diversions through the 60th Street tunnel. That would make sense if they were to extend the Astoria line to and through LaGuardia to Flushing and College Point, thus justifying two services on the Astoria line. That, however, is unliklely.
But a line down 2nd Ave would take pressure off the E 53rd St line.
Instead of 15 Fs, 15 Es, 10 Rs, and 10 Vs, those 50 tph could be split 6 ways in some other way that provides service to 63rd/Broadway express, 60th/Broadway local, 63rd/6th Ave, 53rd/8th Ave, 53rd/6th Ave, and 2nd Ave southbound.
Obviously, not all combinations would exist outside the rush hour, and not all Manhattan routes would be accessible by both Queens locals and expresses, but it seems silly not to have at least 8 tph from QB to Wall St. Those trains would directly offload the Lex as well as the 53rd St. tunnel.
Never thought of cutting all QB-60th St service in favor of better 53rd and 63rd St service. Now that I think of it, it does seem like a feasible idea provided it proves to be worth it. (This is all assuming the SAS is built.) An idea that goes with it is taking those stub tracks on the Bway line that end just north of 57th and bringing them around to connect back into the 63rd St tracks after the 60th St tracks have turned off to ease congestion. (The R would use these in this layout.) It could work like this: (the letters can be changed to suit your standard but the routes are more focused on here)
B: CPW Lcl-6th Ave Exp
D: CPW Exp-6th Ave Exp
E: QB Exp-53rd-8th Lcl/Exp
F: QB Lcl (yes, local)-53rd-6th Lcl
N: Astoria-60th-Bway Exp
P: QB Exp-63rd-Lower 2nd Ave
Q: 57th-Bway Exp
R: Upper 2nd Ave-63rd-Bway Lcl
V: QB Lcl-63rd-6th Lcl
W: Astoria-60th-Bway Lcl-Whitehall
X: Upper 2nd Ave-Lower 2nd Ave
ADVANTAGES: The two QB expresses cover the westernmost trunk line and the easternmost trunk line in Manhattan (the E and the P respectively). The two QB locals would both go to 6th Ave, but the thing is local riders wanting 2nd Ave only have to get off at Queensbridge or RI to change and there is no change in elevation for the transfer. Upper 2nd Ave gets access to both Bway and Lower 2nd Ave. Astoria and 60th St have two trains, one exp to Brooklyn, one lcl to Whitehall.
DISADVANTAGES: I'm sure many riders don't care whether their train runs local or express IN MANHATTAN because the crowds matched up with the few number of stops skipped make the express a small rather than large convenience. There is no direct access to 60th St or Bway from QB, but I feel the advantages make up for it. Also, scheduling has to be completely synchronized or there'll be hold ups everywhere.
What do you think? I'm sure this is what many of you had in mind.
P: QB Exp-63rd-Lower 2nd Ave (OK)
Q: 57th-Bway Exp
(Once the Second Ave is built, there will be no place to turn around at 57th. Either you go thru to Second Avenue or you go thru 60th Street. That's one of the problems.)
N: Astoria-60th-Bway Exp
(That works, with a switch)
R: Upper 2nd Ave-63rd-Bway Lcl
(Or it could go to Astoria)
V: QB Lcl-63rd-6th Lcl
(OK)
W: Astoria-60th-Bway Lcl-Whitehall
(Replaced by B on west end. No room for 4 services on Broadway)
X: Upper 2nd Ave-Lower 2nd Ave
(OK)
You might add:
E: Queens Express, 53rd, 8th Avenue Local.
F: Queens Local, 53rd, 6th Avenue Local. Or it could run on 8th Avenue, with the F replaced by the V on the Culver.
From what I just read it seems you missed the entire top section of my post.
No room for 4 services on Broadway
Yes there is. There are 5 at the moment, consisting of:
N (max 6tph)
Q Local (max 8tph)
Q Express (max 8tph)
R (max 9tph)
W (max 7tph)
That totals 38tph - hardly a capacity issue on a 4 track line! In fact, at that rate you could run 7 or 8 services on Broadway no problem.
The only disadvantage I can see is that Local riders in Queens can only get to 6th Avenue.
But as I said, you can get off at 21 St or RI for the train behind it to 2nd Ave w/o a change in elevation. The only thing is, only 1 of the 2 locals will go to 63rd for such a connection. But I figure, the people would take whatever comes in first the 53rd St local or the 63rd St local. If it is 53rd, transfer at 53rd/Lex for the 6, if it is 63rd, transfer at RI for the 2nd Ave train behind it. That filters the flow.
You know, with any kind of NIMBY issue, could the city bring up 'Eminent Domain' and hush them up? All for the good of the city. If only we had a Robert Moses of Subways today...
Well it is ok for Queens riders to transfer to the Lex as long as there are less Bronx and possibly Brooklyn riders on it. Particularly if the cross-platform connection is built at Grand St, South Brooklyn riders will take the B/D there and wait for a 2nd Ave train any day above getting off at Atlantic and going wild upstairs. And Bronx riders would adore the 2nd Ave subway for going across town at 63rd and suddenly becoming a part of the Bway line w/o leaving your seat.
I've started putting together a one-stop-shop for information about photography on various transit systems.
Photography on Transit Systems
I have already written to each of the agencies listed and responses are pending. As I have time I will write to more agencies and add them to the list. Let me know if you want to help out.
-Dave
SEPTA requires a permit? That's news to me. You should also have a column for enforcement. For example the MTBA is pretty hard up (all employees know the policy and enforce it), but you can generally get away with photography on PATH (employees don't know or don't care, PA cops sometimes enforce).
Did you write to NJT and PATCO?
SEPTA requires a permit? That's news to me.
I was once ordered to cease and desist photographic activity at the Fern Rock Regional Rail station by a SEPTA police officer.
I was with Keystone Pete at Fern Rock more recently when the guy in the BSS booth on the platform made cryptic remarks to Pete about photography being verboten.
Unfortunately I can't pre-determine how the regulations will be enforced. But I think we can find tons of people who will be willing to describe how SEPTA enforces their rules (Peggy D. for one has had some run-ins that I'm aware of)
-Dave
I was just suggesting a non-scientific metric based on anecdotal evidence of how aggressive a particiular transit system is re: enforcing a no photo policy. Sort of like that terrorism warning thing. The same colors and labels would even apply.
Well, I think that as railfans we need to make a little effort to prove to these transit agencies that they really don't have anything to fear or worry about when we're around. That means we need to, as a group, be on best behavior. That means no stupid stuff like trespassing to get that great shot and no posting a web page indicating how likely it is you can break their rules and not get caught at it.
Whether or not you want to risk taking pictures where you know a permit is required is "caveat emptor".
-Dave
Wow, great response from WMATA!
I'll be trying my luck with SEPTA this weekend, since my e-mail query about permiting went unanswered, their customer service line kept me on hold, long-distance, while I was supposed to be working today, and I doubt I can just pop into their offices Saturday night or Sunday and get one. Just to be safe, I plan on sticking to buses, trolleys, and anything else that can be shot from the street.
I've never had a problem with MBTA, including yard areas at Riverside and Mattapan.
Thanks, Dave. That's an important resource.
Great addition to your website!
Dave:
Not sure of number but I made a posting similar to this around November 2002. Included contact info at CTA and (I think) TTC.
Not sure how you'd dig it up.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
If all systems could be as nice as the DC Metro ...
Honestly they were the last system from which I would have expected a response like that! But I guess they're used to tourists/railfans taking snapshots. Tourists are going to take pictures anyway.
Honestly they were the last system from which I would have expected a response like that! But I guess they're used to tourists/railfans taking snapshots. Tourists are going to take pictures anyway.
Right, they had given you a hassle about the track maps.
Are you planning on adding Los Angeles to the list?
I haven't had a chance to write to everyone yet, I'll add more systems as I have time (LA is on the list).
Anyone who speaks fluent French want to inquire about the Paris Metro? I tried to ask them once before but I couldn't make them understand that I wasn't a pro photographer looking to do a "shoot" in a station, that I just wanted to make sure I could take snapshots and not get harrassed.
Anyone who speaks fluent French want to inquire about the Paris Metro? I tried to ask them once before but I couldn't make them understand that I wasn't a pro photographer looking to do a "shoot" in a station, that I just wanted to make sure I could take snapshots and not get harrassed.
Heh. Considering all the French-bashing that's so popular in America these days, it might not be a good time to ask.
>>> I couldn't make them understand that I wasn't a pro photographer looking to do a "shoot" in a station <<<
Heh, heh, you, like so many American tourists before you thought they didn't understand you. You might try sending a request through the Paris Route 38 bus drivers. They are aware of your site and may be able to get the information for you.
Here is their web site:
http://bus38.online.fr/english_net.html
Tom
in los angeles i am a mta contractor with a badge i.d. and vest...
they never bother me on any mta-la rail site shooting still pictures.
-metrolink excluded-
How can we help out? What agencies would you like me to send a letter to?
--Mark
The following was forwarded to me by a friend:
'My name is Steve Kurutz and I'm a writer working on a story for the New York
Times. I stumbled upon your web-site and was hoping that you could point me
in the right direction. The story revolves around a homeless panhandler
named Sonny Payne that frequents the F train. Over the past few years F
train riders have grown very fond of Sonny, unlike New Yorkers attitudes
towards most panhandlers. In any case, I'm trying to track Sonny down and
it's like tracking down a needle in a haystack. I am hoping that some F
train conductors or MTA laborers might know Sonny or have become friendly
with him and my question to you is: do certain trains have assigned crews
who work long term on that line? And, if so, how would I go about contacting
the F train representative or boss? Any help you can offer would be much
appreciated. Thanks.'
Steve.Kurutz@FAIRCHILDPUB.com
Who exactly are "MTA Laborers?" Should I be offended? Is he saying conductors don't do real laborious work?
;-)
Dave
If he is the large black man that used to hang out in front of the crew quarters at Stillwell Avenue, then obviously he's not there anymore. He used to chat with the crew on top of the transfer bridge and enjoy a warm cup noodle every now and then sitting on a large garbage bag full of stuff I presume. I've seen him in the last car of a Q Train out in 21 Street-Queensbridge before the tunnel opened.
I like an opportunity to do some detective work, and while I had a few moments free from my search for the key to the food locker, I did a search on Google and came up with a short story that actually has a reference to Sonny Payne. It's kind of a strange story about a trip on the F train from Brooklyn to Broadway Lafayette, with a lot of observations that are sure to offend everyone.
Anyway, here's a link to the story:
On the F train
If I were you, and you ought to be glad I'm not, I'd go riding the F train to see if I could run into Sonny. While on the train, you could ask the conductor and motorman if they've seen him. Perhaps a friendly conductor might make an annoucement over the p.a. system to see if Sonny is aboard or if anyone has seen him recently. You could make up fliers and hand them out to F train riders.
In case your efforts fail, there are a few strange people at this site who would make wonderful copy.
Peehew! What a smelly story! I was getting physically sick just reading it...thanks for bringing on the nightmares, Paul...
I need to get to GWB Bus Terminal pretty soon...I was wondering which subway stop lets me off like right there. A @ 175 or 1 @ 181. Both are equally convienent, though the closer to the bus terminal, the better.
The A @ 175 is the better choice. There is a passageway right into the terminal. You don't have to go outside.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nice, just what I was hoping for, thanks.
A to 175th st, the passageway is at the north end of the station.
Use the A b/c its express and get off at 175.
Take the "A" to 175 Street which leads you very closer to GWB.
Anyone out there keeping abreast of doings on the Manny B? Haven't heard much lately. Are they on schedule to finish in time for its 2004 opening and if so what time of year? If not, what's the problem at this time. Most of you know why the opening of the whole bridge is important to me, and if the news is good I want to be there when the Sea Beach makes its first jaunt permanently over the span. Please let me know.
A flurry of postings a few months ago said the DOT work was ahead of schedule, but that there's still a lot of rail/signal/planning/management work to do, so don't expect it to open EARLIER than planned.
As soon as there's a pick that involves both sides of the MB, this board is going to be flooded with postings (if not earlier). That'll give you at least a month to buy your plane tickets.
That's what I needed to know. Thanks AIM. You hit the mark again.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bridges/manbridge.html
See this webpage for more information on the Manny-Bridge project. You can copy and paste to the ADDRESS bar at the top of your screen.
The contractor has a timeline and will be penalized BIG TIME if the project is late. If Yonkers Contracting can do it for the Willy-Bridge, so can the current contractor working on Contract #10. I will be on the first D train over 6th Ave to Brooklyn at that time, you can bet on that!!!
BTW, many posts on the TROLL ALERT were deleted, and I wanted to let you know I am down with you on getting my 4 hour POP ticket so that I can ride the Cyclone as many times as I want. But they eliminated my favorite ride of all time at Coney Island, the HELL HOLE by Stillwell side. THAT IS A REAL RIDE!!!!
The Manny B project has more elements than just assuring structural integrity and restoring subway service. I like the bikeway plan and the information system.
We have some good things to look forward to.
Agreed. I thought they were making another walkway on the other side, but a bikeway is even better. Now both bike riders and walkers can have their very own right of way, if everyone pays attetion to the signs, and not have to look out for each other.
The Manny B project has more elements than just assuring structural integrity and restoring subway service. I like the bikeway plan and the information system.
We have some good things to look forward to.
According to that timeline it should be done by January 2004? If so, that's very efficient!
But the 6th Ave B and D service may not be restored until NYCT completes 3/4ths of the Stillwell reconstruction. The pick will be out the same time instead of two seperate picks.
I've said it before, I'll say it again (for purely selfish reasons):
I hope that bridge never reopens, my subway service (D) has been excellent.
Peace,
ANDEE
Q service has been better also. It is a shorter trip to midtown with the broadway line having better transfer points
"I hope that bridge never reopens, my subway service (D) has been excellent."
Really? Then why almost every time I take a downtown D, 145th st tower "holds" the D train while we wait 5 minutes for the A train upstairs to go in front of us. Then when we get to 59th st/Columbus Circle, the tower there puts the "holding lights" on so that we wait for the C local that left 125th St, the same time as us.
Well, I agree on the downtown point, but uptown service has been perfect. Except for the annoying wait in "homeball alley" where they always hold for the B with 6 passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS: You must also remember that I travel on off hours. Downtown @ 0300.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey,
I miss the D running on the Brighton. It's been the Brighton train for years. It's next to impossible trying to get 8th Ave service without either a long walk or taking two trains just to get an 8th Avenue train. Plus I miss the relatively quick one-seat ride to Yankee Stadium!!! The D has gotta come back to Brighton!!!
So? The D was the Culver train from 1954-1967. And one rumor has the D going to West End when the north side reopens, which would give West End riders 24/7 service to Manhattan - not a bad idea.
Personally I think the service is better now. Not as good as with both sides open, but ten times better than when the south side tracks were closed between 1989 and July 2001. 6th Avenue has lousy IRT transfers, doesn't serve lower Manhattan very well, and doesn't go to as many popular areas.
6th Ave Line DOES have lousy IRT transfers, but it also sits at the heart of the office district in midtown which is a big plus during rush hours. Also remember that more people work in the midtown area than lower Manhattan, especially after 9/11.
As for running the D as a 24/7 West End service, I think that is not a good idea. The old service pattern before the bridge flip was better. There was clearly a lot more Brighton riders than West End riders late at night. I'm not sure there's even enough riders on the West End to justify a 24/7 service pattern. In my opinion, The MTA should keep B/D nighttime service patterns the way it was before the bridge flip.
I am with you all the way on this one. Since 11/26/67 (this website listed the opening date as 7/1/68), the D line has made itself home on the greatest subway line in the world. It can go express in three different boroughs during rush hours (one way in the Bronx, of course.), take in the marvelous views of the sea air and the sandy beaches on weekends. I do honestly believe that when the D ran local full time on 12/11/88, they killed was once a great express train. Not only the D line will come back to my borough I cherish in, I am hoping for the return of weekday D express service, the Q can run local on weekdays, like the M. And the M (or possibly J) is more than welcome in my home too, although the numbers only justify one of the Nassau St. Local services as a rush hour train only.
I'm with you on all your points except running the D as the Brighton Express. Though I used to love it when the D tore up tracks on its express run, one thing I remember when the D ran express on the Brighton was that it was ridiculously crowded during rush. The M and Q, though also crowded, was not AS crowded. I thought that this was because the D was both the 6th Ave train (which was more popular than Broadway and Nassau trains) and the Brighton Express. If we run the Q Express on the Brighton, and the D local, the crowd would be more evenly split, because 6th Ave would still be a popular option, but people love their Brighton Express. This would also allow the D to run 24/7 without too many changes on the line (like running Brighton Express on the weekday and local on the weekend).
"Downtown @ 0300."
Best time to ride!
For purely selfish reasons? Well I can buy that. Don't think for a second that I am open minded where my Sea Beach is concerned. I get so carried away that sometimes I say give the N train everything and to hell with the rest of the lines. Being selfish with our favorite trains should be germaine to all of us. So go ahead and protect your D.
One more thing Andee. You say you're Irish. Well I've got something for you. On March 7th a group called The Fenians will be performing at Paddy Reilly's on 2nd Avenue starting at 10:30 p.m. I guess since there is no Second Avenue Subway you might have to use car or bus BUT DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GO AND LISTEN TO THESE GUYS. They are absolutely great. The best Irish music I have ever heard. For info, the number is 212-686=1210. I haven't a drop of Irish blood but after hearing this group I suddenly think my name is Sean McBain.
Nope...separate picks. I've confirmed that with the planners. Manhattan Bridge first, then Stillwell.
David
It will be interesting to see what services run during that Manny B pick.
(According to that timeline it should be done by January 2004? If so, that's very efficient!)
The timeline on that web site is clearly stated as being for NYC DOT work only. NYCT work is IN ADDITION.
That doesn't mean they can't maybe work together and be done in early 2004. But nobody has seen any promises in writing about that.
Latest news:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/ns/ns2004/pe_NY2ndAveSub.htm
"This year, this project has received a 'low' rating for cost-effectiveness, which raises concerns about the merits of the project for Federal funding. FTA strongly encourages the sponsor to improve the cost-effectiveness of the project."
MTA is asking the feds for $8.4 billion to build the full-length project – 50% of the $16.8 billion cost. That's the entire budget for subway, commuter rail and light rail projects in the whole U. S. of A. for six years.
They ain't gonna get it.
What's the federal road budget? or the federal bail-out-airlines budget? Just curious.
According to http://www.dot.gov/bib/fhwa.html the US Federal Highway Admin budget was $28.7 Billion for FY 2002.
Remember that transit is more efficent than road or air, so naturally they will get less funding. I would like to see what the funding is per passneger-mile for each more or some other leveling statistics. However, I'm sure that we'll find that transit is stil underfunded compared to other modes.
After reading the document, it seems the feds are squarely in the middle, not trashing or strongly supporting either.
Read all of the profiles. That's their usual tone. They are transit advocates. But to say outright they will not likely fund a project is unusual.
MTA is asking the feds for $8.4 billion to build the full-length project – 50% of the $16.8 billion cost. That's the entire budget for subway, commuter rail and light rail projects in the whole U. S. of A. for six years.
If New York's construction costs weren't so obscenely hyperinflated, Weimar Republic-style, there might be a better chance of actually getting projects funded and built.
Oh please, you know better than that.
Don't read that kind of stuff out of context. This is ultimately a political decision, not a cost-effectiveness decision, so what you read in the FTA document ultimately means nothing except in after-the-fact rationalization about a decision being made.
The Bush Administration is strictly ideology and politics driven. If Bush has decided that it's OK for NY to get its subway money, it'll happen. The FTA report will be part of the paperwork, and that's it.
The same is true for decisions made in the Dept. of Interior, Energy, HHS, DoD and Homeland Security.
"Oh please, you know better than that."
Ok, show me the transit project anywhere in the USA which has gotten $8 billion in federal funding. They are choking on ESA, which is only $2 billion. They've said they're going to do it. But they will then likely say "that's it, New York -- at least for many years." They're not going to turn right around and fund another NY project that would consume the ENTIRE transit budget for 6 years.
That's politics. The money gets spread around the country. Condescension doesn't change the facts.
This harder tone the Feds are taking cannot just be attributed to politics. Boston had this problem (and still is) with its Central Artery Project, and even though Regan (who I doubt was any fan of mass transit) nearly killed it by vetoing a transit approprations bill, the Federal authorities have still leaned on the city because of the high costs of the digging, even though it was spread out over eleven years (and due to end within the next two-three years.) After that experience there may have been an extra sense of caution among Federal agencies when it came to localized projects with big budgets. This being said, I imagine that the 2nd Avenue line may not be the only thing that will be held up to a high bar. The Gowanus tunnel may also get this treatment as well (and its budget and construction specs are higher than 2nd Avenue's;) I'll think its politics if that's fast-tracked nonetheless.
Yes, our friends in Boston haven't helped the cause of mega-projects with their management of Big Dig. And that is a road project, where there is a much larger pot of federal funds. Tunnels have been a big problem also in LA and Seattle. On the upside, MTA's numbers seem honest, and shouldn't have the scandalous overruns (what was Big Dig supposed to be? $2.5 billion? Now it's $15 billion, and it's not done yet).
"what was Big Dig supposed to be? $2.5 billion? Now it's $15 billion, and it's not done yet)."
I'm sure it will cross the $20 billion line when every invoice is finally paid off.
Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes. But I agree that the original proposals were lacking in honesty.
One thing that helped get the Big Dig funded was that Boston is the capitol of Massachusetts. As Peter Rosa would say, the "suit-covered anuses" (all well-connected) demanded it.
"Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes."
In my opinion, no. Big Dig didn't even add capacity to the road that used to be there. A nice redevelopment project that should have been done with local money.
Well, the Big Dig got its funding because Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill was Speaker of the House and did some horse trading with Reagan and the Republican-controll Senate to get the project off the ground. Had Massachusetts not had someone in the government;s No. 3 power position the project would have never gotten off the ground.
Right now, given the post 9/11 situation, and with Pataki as governor, Bloomberg as mayor and with the prospect of Giuliani running against Schumer in 2004 while the Republican concention is in New York, the city and state are probably in their absolute best possible position to get funding from the current administration. That's not saying they're going to get it, just that post-2004, and especially with the prospect of a Hillary Clinton run for the presidency in 2008, the chances of any major mass transit project for the city getting a really favroable opinion after 2004 (with the exception of a 7 extension if the N.Y. Olumpic bid is approved) is not very good.
"Well, the Big Dig got its funding because Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill was Speaker of the House and did some horse trading with Reagan and the Republican-controll Senate to get the project off the ground."
Very good, I had forgotten about that. It goes further to prove my point: it doesn't matter what a government agency's reviewers think of a project. If it's politically supported enough, it happens.
"Had Massachusetts not had someone in the government;s No. 3 power position the project would have never gotten off the ground. "
Well, it might have had a much rougher time, and would have taken a lot longer. The Governor and state legislature wanted it, and so did Mayor Menino and the entire City Council. Having unified voices helps a lot too.
If Washington DC were not the nation's capitol, Metrorail would not have been quite as fancy and showy.
Well, it might have had a much rougher time, and would have taken a lot longer. The Governor and state legislature wanted it, and so did Mayor Menino and the entire City Council. Having unified voices helps a lot too.
Something probably would have gotten built if Tip hadn't been Speaker, but not this particular something -- more likely a far more scaled-down and less costly version.
If Washington DC were not the nation's capitol, Metrorail would not have been quite as fancy and showy.
Also true. WMATA was designed to be similar to BART in appearances, but with station locations closer to N.Y.C. subway distances. Unfortunately, it's own success, coupled with the explosive growth in the D.C. area over the past 30 years and the horrid design of the city for high-speed vehicular access (maybe L'Enfant was a railfan before there was rail) has created a bit of a clash between the Metrorail cars' plushness and their straining capacity given all the new riders (something the MTA did deal with by going back to longitudinal seating for the R-143s, and something WMATA will have to think about in the future). And of course, while the escallators to exposed street entrances might have made sense in San Francisco with its year-round moderate climate, running escallators up to the street without coverings in D.C. was unimaginably bone-headed (and I'll bet they were working great on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday this week while all that snow was coming down)
I'm already aware of the 7 extension's association with the Olympic bid, but wasn't the extension proposed prior to the mention of NYC's entering the Olympic bid?
I'm sure even without the games, the extension may still have benefit, like bringing life to the quaint west side.
The city is proposing that the funding for the Second Ave. line and the 7 extension be done on seperate paths (or tracks,if you prefer), and that the Flushing lengthening to the West Side be done with more local funds. But given the national emphasis on the Olympics and New York's habit of running out of subway money before anything else, federal funding for that project, post-2004, is more likely if New York wins the bid than for Second Ave., which will be in its strongest position to receive federal aid when the next transportation bill comes before congress between now and the 2004 election.
One thing that helped get the Big Dig funded was that Boston is the capitol of Massachusetts. As Peter Rosa would say, the "suit-covered anuses" (all well-connected) demanded it.
I'd also say that there's no such thing as Typical Beantown Incompetence.
(I'd also say that there's no such thing as Typical Beantown Incompetence.)
There has in the past been massive corruption however, which can also inflate prices to astronomical levels. (Not claiming any in this case though).
As Peter Rosa would say, the "suit-covered anuses" (all well-connected) demanded it.
Just one correction ... the individuals themselves are not suit-covered anuses; rather, they are Alpha Males with suit-covered anuses.
"Ok, show me the transit project anywhere in the USA which has gotten $8 billion in federal funding. They are choking on ESA, which is only $2 billion. They've said they're going to do it. But they will then likely say "that's it, New York -- at least for many years." They're not going to turn right around and fund another NY project that would consume the ENTIRE transit budget for 6 years."
Check out the Big Dig in Boston.
ESA is an example of why you're wrong. They're not choking on ESA - they funded it. They're fine with it, or they wouldn't have. The Governor decided ESA was a priority for him; the State legislature agreed, and the federal government (conveniently enough a Republican administration) stepped up to the plate, because this one's for Pataki. Whatever the FTA may or may not have said about ESA's cost-effectiveness means absolutely zilch.
FTA can make recommendations. Those recommendations are more important for less visible projects that don't get a lot of important political attention, because it is less likely that the administrator who approves or disapproves of the project will be countermanded.
"They're not going to turn right around and fund another NY project that would consume the ENTIRE transit budget for 6 years. "
A budget which can change from year to year and magically grow and shrink. Come on Simon, get real.
"Check out the Big Dig in Boston."
Nope, a highway project.
"They're not choking on ESA - they funded it."
This is my information from a report issues a couple weeks ago:
'In addition, given the size of this project and the difficulty with dividing it into more than one operable segment, alternative funding mechanisms in lieu of a traditional FFGA are being investigated. FTA and MTA are working to identify an appropriate first phase of a funding commitment, anticipated to be ready by early FY 2003. The final amount of the funding commitment for this authorization period is still under consideration.'
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/ns/ns2004/ns8d.html#3
What's yours?
"A budget which can change from year to year and magically grow and shrink. Come on Simon, get real."
The federal pot for transit projects has been at $1.5 billion for several years. Unlikely to change much. If SAS is counting on "magic" now, that's not being "real."
"Check out the Big Dig in Boston."
Nope, a highway project.
That's your view - not the government's. And part of that project is transit (the rebuild of the Green Line).
"What's yours?"
The same as yours. Having to shuffle money from account to account and take it from different pots happens a lot in government.
Now, there is an aspect to ESA that does support your view in a way - it's important enough so that the Gobvernor would be likely to squeeze the State to pay a greater share if the Feds did cut back their commitment. This thing is getting built. Perhaps FTA knows that, and so is doing a bit of distributive, zero-sum game negotiating here.
But the project is not in trouble.
"That's your view - not the government's. And part of that project is transit (the rebuild of the Green Line)."
OK, show me the documentation showing billions of federal Section 3 transit dollars going to the Big Dig, defined any way you'd like.
"But the project is not in trouble."
Didn't say that it was. Just said that the feds are choking on the large number, $2.6 billion, which they haven't agree to. The phrase "an appropriate first phase of a funding commitment" means to me MTA will be getting less.
"OK, show me the documentation showing billions of federal Section 3 transit dollars going to the Big Dig, defined any way you'd like."
Not directly relevant, except politically.
In the 1960's, when the federal government decided to expand the number of medical schools and the size of medical classes, it was done under a "National Security" bill. Effectively, it was funding that originally would have been DoD money. Great for the med schools, and it got around the fact that HHS' predecessor agency was underfunded.
I personally want to see more dedicated federal funds in transit-only budgets. I know that's not in vogue these days.
But when it comes to a specific project, like Big Dig's Green Line work, ESA, SAS, Metrorail's Blue Line extension, etc., if the check arrives, that's what counts. It gets cashed just the same.
"Not directly relevant, except politically."
The feds say this: 'MTA is requesting a total of $2.60 billion of Section 5309 New Starts funding.'
If there's another pot of money out there, MTA would love to know about it. It's what gave the downtown situation an upside: $4.5 billion of money for transit outside of this straitjacket.
As I've said, the endgame is East Side Access without the Second Avenue Subway. That's what Pataki wants -- benefits for the suburbs, but not for the city. That's why he put the MTA so deep in debt before the Second Avenue got started. That's what Bloomberg will take in exchange for his Olympics. Bush isn't going to want to give New York any more money.
That's what they can get away with as long as there are people who believe all the bullshit that comes out. Bloomberg has said New York doesn't need Second Avenue. Crains has editorialized against Second Avenue. They can just say the project is deffered. Or say nothing, and simply have it fade away.
So what happens when the crush of added traffic overwhelms the Lex, leading to a collapse in service? Desperate measures -- they'll have to find a way to get New York City residents off the subway to preserve suburban service.
One option is to eliminate service on the Jerome Avenue and Lennox terminal lines. The 2 and 3 would go to White Plains Rd/Dyre. All West Bronx residents would have to ride the Concourse Line, and walk over however may blocks to the East Side. Meanwhile, the Lex Express could start relay at 125th Street, except during Yankee Games when it could relay north of 161st Street. Bronx residents would be screwed, and the Lex would still be jammed, but it's better than the alternative.
Bloomberg has said New York doesn't need Second Avenue.
He has? I know he considers the 7 extension a higher priority, but I thought he was in favor of both.
He is in favor of both, but he's looking at the most direct way to support the stadium, the Javits Center, the Olympics etc.
He said early in his term that we should either build the Second Avenue Subway or forget it, and that as far as he was concerned the Lex wasn't that crowded if you travel before 7:30, and the Second Avenue wouldn't generate economic development like the Flushing Line would. There was an outcry, and he hushed it up. The new tact is he's sure it will get done "eventually."
(as far as he was concerned the Lex wasn't that crowded if you travel before 7:30)
Workaholics have a different view of life. I had a boss once who told me before I was hired that traffic wasn't bad around White Plains. Then I found out he came to work at 7 and left at 6 every day.
He has an agenda which is different than Guliani's.
If his agenda (not just transit - I'm talking about everything) clashes too much with the electorate, they may not re-elect him.
He said early in his term that we should either build the Second Avenue Subway or forget it, and that as far as he was concerned the Lex wasn't that crowded if you travel before 7:30, and the Second Avenue wouldn't generate economic development like the Flushing Line would. There was an outcry, and he hushed it up. The new tact is he's sure it will get done "eventually."
Bloomberg may have a point when it comes to economic development. We could argue from now until the cows come home whether the Flushing Line extension would spur significant development on the West Side. It's pretty much beyond debate, however, that the Second Avenue Subway would do very little in terms of development, simply because the East Side is basically fully developed at highest and best use. At least in Manhattan that's true; the SAS might indeed help the Bronx, but unfortunately that borough is largely under City Hall's radar screen.
What about:
1. Lengthening the IRT stations to 12 cars? If not all of them, enough for a 161st to Bowling Green service? Big question: can GCT be lengthened for less than $1 billion?
2. Implementing CBTC and getting 40 tph.
Neither is cheap or quick, but either could be $1 or $2 billion or so rather than $16 billion, and still doable by 2015.
3. Make LIRR to GCT $1 per ride ($50/mo.) more than to Penn or Brooklyn. Still worth it for people who work near GCT, but not for those who work on Wall St.
(What about: 1. Lengthening the IRT stations to 12 cars? If not all of them, enough for a 161st to Bowling Green service? Big question: can
GCT be lengthened for less than $1 billion? )
That only gets you 20 percent or less, and I'm not sure it's feasible.
(2. Implementing CBTC and getting 40 tph.)
The constraint is now dwell time, especially at Grand Central. All those people getting off, and all those other people -- more than before -- getting on. We can't get up to the signal capacity now!
(3. Make LIRR to GCT $1 per ride ($50/mo.) more than to Penn or Brooklyn. Still worth it for people who work near GCT, but not
for those who work on Wall St.)
That could be part of the solution. The key is to get subway transferees and those destined for the West Side out of GCT. That's why I believe that without MetroNorth to Penn AND at least the Stubway, East Side Access should not be built.
(That only gets you 20 percent or less, and I'm not sure it's feasible.)
A 20% increase in Lex capacity would last for quite a few decades. NYC growth isn't that fast. But I also don't know if they could lengthen the GCT platforms, closing down only 1 track and only on weekends. They might also have to modify the curves and run under additional buildings (ugh!).
(The constraint is now dwell time, especially at Grand Central. )
Only partly:
1. More trains reduce dwell time, since there are fewer people trying to get on each train.
2. The block signaling requires spacing greater than might otherwise be necessary, since it doesn't know if the train ahead is stopped or moving, and only knows approximately where it is. As a train leaves GCT, a new train ought to be ready to enter, but signal force quite a sizeable spacing.
Here's an amusing question. What will it like to have one track of the Lex out of service mid-days, nights and weekends for, say, four years while the signal system is replaced -- without the Second Avenue there to take the strain?
Also, according to plan CBTC will not be coming to the IRT for a long time. IRT signals are relatively new, having been replaced between 1960 and 1984. With the West End and Canarsie Lines done, same with the BMT. The Flushing Line has the oldest signals, but it will be replaced under current and proposed contracts -- it will be the second CBTC line. The 8th Avenue line north of 59th Street was done earlier; the Concourse Line just started.
The rest of the IND will soon have the oldest signals. The order, after Flushing, is Culver, Crosstown, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, Rockaway, 6th Avenue, 8th Avenue, etc. So maybe if they build the Second Avenue (also CBTC) 40 trains per hour on the Queens Blvd express, and a line down Second Avenue, will be possible. The Lex will have to wait.
This doesn't seem feasible, but I'll toss it out anyway: how about building four extra tracks and two extra platforms at Grand Central? That would allow for overlapping dwells, with trains alternating platforms.
Aside from the (presumably) astronomical cost, one disadvantage would be the loss of cross-platform transfers between local and express, which is already a problem on the line -- 14th to 125th is a very long stretch without any. Crowding on the express might actually get worse as a result, since people waiting for the express wouldn't be able to board the local if it came first as they are now.
A lower level Grand Central station on the Lexington Avenue Line (making the station bi-level) was proposed in the 1950s. As far as I know, it never even got to the design stage.
David
And my precious 7 is left alone. I love it. j/k :-D
I personally want to see more dedicated federal funds in transit-only budgets. I know that's not in vogue these days.
But when it comes to a specific project, like Big Dig's Green Line work, ESA, SAS, Metrorail's Blue Line extension, etc., if the check arrives, that's what counts. It gets cashed just the same.
You know, the feds might be worried that any money given to New York will be piddled away without anything actually getting built. Memories of the Beame Shuffle may still exist in Washington.
Granted, that's going to be on people's minds.
But MTA is much better run today than in 1974, and there was no formal Capital Plan in 1974. The Capital Plans of 1982-2004 are, collectively, responsible for truly renewing the transit system.
I hope people remember that - but then if they all think like you...:0)
The 63rd Street Connector was subject to a Full Funding Agreement as a result of the problems of the 1970s. The feds wanted assurance that the project would be finished and used if they funded it. MTA signed the agreement, got the money, finished the project, and now operates through the connector. I doubt the feds would shy away from the Second Avenue project because of things that happened almost 30 years ago, especially considering the track record (no pun intended) since then.
David
Yesterday, while traveling on a Flushing bound Q13 bus, I saw something rather out of the ordinary. An MTA police squad car had just pulled over a TLC limo on Northern Blvd. As the bus stopped at the to take on people, I saw the cop ask the driver for ID and to open his truck of his limo. Once all this was done, he let him go. My question is this, what jurisdication does an MTA police have over a TLC car?....it was not parked at a bus stop, nor did he try to pick up anyone at the time.
Most states have arrangements where "police are police" no matter who they work for. For instance, Rutgers University police can enforce the laws off Rutgers property within reason. Probably, so can MTA police, PATH police, NJ Transit police, etc.
MTA Police have jurisdiction in all 12 counties it serves, they are stationed at MTA Bridges, the NY state commuter railroads and 347 Madison Ave. Although NYPD has primary control patrolling NYCT property, MTA Police can assist when necessary.
Like NYPD officers, MTA Police are NY State Public Officers and enforce the State VTL, the NYC Traffic Rules, and the NYC Administrative Code in addition to the NY State PAL (Public Authorites Law.) So as long as the vehicle stopped in question took place in NY State, it's a proper stop irregardless of vehicle type.
The (Boston) MBTA has released a draft of its Program for Mass Transportation planning document. It is the MBTA's mast plan for mass transportation and the basis for its capital planning. Sections include system preservation, enhancement, and expansion.
The document is in .pdf format and can be downloaded chapter by chapter from this Web site. (It's best if you have broadband. If you don't the same page has a place where you can order a copy be sent to you.)
Here's one for you all that I found in my slide collection. A redbird but.. when, where, and what happened to it? No caption on the slide mount, unfortunately.
Wow, not a lot to go on here. I'm guessing that its near a commuter RR line judging by the poles nearby. Otherwise I have no clue.
It's safe to say that the 'bird is not in Florida or Southern California :)
LOL! Well that narrows it down. And someone mentioned that it must be in winter.....
Seriously, I wouldn't know where to start. Well if it helps at all, it must've been a work train for a while as the doors are yellow. As for where it is, I haven't a clue. It's hard to tell if it's even the NY metro area.
Well if it helps at all, it must've been a work train for a while as the doors are yellow.
Also, the primer we used for the aluminum doors on 6688 was yellow.
It's hard to tell but is that car on its trucks? I see a set of trucks to the left front of the car. As to "when" I'm guessing sometime in the winter.... (VBG)
And who stole the railfan window?
Probably on eBay as we speak!
I took it.
...and it'll most likely show up on ebay any day now...with a starting bid of a mere $9,000.00 :)
SalamAllah
It's somewhere on grade level tracks on the old abandoned LIC/Montauk trackage in the Maspeth area, looks like near Penny Bridge or Haberman stations from the industrial buildings in the background.
Nah, too rural for the LIC Montauk Branch. All along the tracks near Penny Bridge and Haberman is chain link fencing near the industrial tracks anyway.
It's pretty safe to say this train is not within the New York city limits. It may not be in NYC's close suburbs.
My guess is that it's in the area of the NY,W&B trackage next to what would be the E180 St Station.
Unless it's a scrapper that "fell off the truck", could this possibly be that redbird that went to the Smithsonian maybe?
IIRC, that one was shipped back to 207, then sunk.
Yeah, Andee mentioned it could be 6688, which is just as possible. Lacking the storm door or car number, hard to tell ...
It isn't. I've seen a picture of 6688 shipped to BERA with everything intact, and riding I-84 as a passenger, as I've told Andee in another post.
-Stef
Yeah, we were grabbing at straws ... err ... block tickets. :)
Of course. If there is a dsruption of service during our charter on 3/30, I'll be handing out block tickets....
-STEF
No, if there's a disruption of service, we're going to fetch some firewater, and dispatch it down the line as a diversion to Mr. Bill. Sledges ain't just for driving spikes, y'know. :)
Its definately an R21 or R22. No emergency knockout glass over the windows, too young to be the car now at 38th Street being disposed of with the Q cars. Definately not Naporano, but might be Sarnelli Brothers in SI.
Welll, based on the other slides I got this with I'm guessing it is prior to 1990; probably prior to 1980; but I'm not sure. I don't actually know anything about it other than what you see in the picture.
I'm beginning to think Andee's our winner here then. DEFINITELY isn't Kingston (they never got a birdie anyway, but I know the town and that ain't it) and doesn't look like any of Branford that I saw either but then I don't know East Haven all that well ... YET. :)
The poles in the background are definitely railroad poles though (12 wires as opposed to the more normal 3 or 6 of electric poles) ... ya done great here though with this "stump the chump" photo, bro.
I'm beginning to think Andee's our winner here then. DEFINITELY isn't Kingston (they never got a birdie anyway, but I know the town and that ain't it) and doesn't look like any of Branford that I saw either but then I don't know East Haven all that well ... YET. :)
It doesn't look like any spot in East Haven (or, as the locals say, "Staven.") It can't be any farther west along the New Haven line because there's no catenary.
No, on the 6688 count. She came to Branford in excellent shape...this is not 6688. Nice try, though.
Yeah, that was what I was thinking - and Peter Rosa says it ain't Rte 100-land either ... musta been somebody's tool shed then. :)
Never knew any birdies went out for private use, yet there it is. And it DOES look like it was "packaged up" for something, somewhere.
Welll, based on the other slides I got this with I'm guessing it is prior to 1990; probably prior to 1980; but I'm not sure. I don't actually know anything about it other than what you see in the picture.
You should check the other slides to see if there are any more views of this car. The photographer may have taken other pictures before this one, judging by the footprints in the snow. A view from another angle might show enough background to reveal the location.
Positive there aren't any other photos like that in the bunch, sorry!
Kingston, New York perhaps...but I didn't think they had a Redbird...looks like it was a car that was perhaps auctioned off.
Just a *guess* but, just maybe 6688 as delivered at Branford. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good guess, but 6688 was delivered with everything intact (doors, windows, etc.).
It's kind of strange seeing an R-17 destined for Pelham Bay Park, but riding as a passenger on I-84!
-Stef
Do you have an approximate date?
No, other than the fact that the bunch of slides it was with didn't have a whole lot more recent than 1980.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of OTHER pictures were in that particular set that appear to have come off the same roll? Maybe that would lead in the direction of a clue - tourista traps, other trains, etc ... it'd be a hoot if it really IS 6688 on its way to or from. I recall Bill Newkirk (I think) had pictures of 6688 as it was about to be shipped and I don't remember 6688 in the photo looking that scungy, that might help narrow it down a bit.
Might have been a stray car on its way to be somebody's tool shed too.
Don't know, i got it with a bunch of subway slides (either at an estate sale or train show, i don't remember). I've got thousands. Its mates on the roll are long separated.
Dang! Well, my hat's off to ya on a GENUINE poser there. :)
Here's another guess: I recall a Transit Museum auction some years back (maybe 10+) where a woman placed a bid on a Redbird and won the car. However, she was not aware of the transportation charges -- that amounted to more than the cost of the car -- balked at the fees and never picked up her 'prize'. I wonder if this is the unclaimed car sitting someplace in the middle of America?
This could also be one of the R21s that were canabalized for the 'Money Train' car.
Well I am pretty sure it's an R21/R22. But I doubt it's the auctioned redbird- if she didn't pay to move it wouldn't it have stayed on NYCTA property?
Not unless one of the other lesser bidders took charge of the car...maybe that's what happenned.
Where *IS* Sister Cleo now that we need her? :)
I find it funny how most of the posters surmise it was auctioned off... Is the MTA allowed to do that? I'm pretty sure the asbestos prevents it and I'm talking about auctioning it off as a whole car, not parts of it... there is a difference.
They did auction off a IRT car at a Transit Museum auction/tag sale I was at about 10-15 years ago. So it's not out of the question. If they did it once, it might have been done other times also.
You are correct...The asbestos issue has only been raised in the past several years. Subway cars have been sold and/or auctioned off to individuals decades ago w/o any problems. It is the MTA's heavy reliance on lawyers in recent years that has brought forth the 'abestos problem'.
Another thing to keep in mind is that since the storm door is missing the car MAY NOT BE an R-21/22, but rather an R-17.
hmmm....the possibilities...
I'd venture a guess that it is NOT a 21/22; how many besides 7261/9306 were painted red?
Well I was comparing it to photos on the site of the three "bumps" on each side of the stoorm door and the fact that it doesn't have headlights, Guess it could be an R17 but probably not later than an R22.
It's too difficult to tell in the scan, but emergency glass above the side windows would scream R-17.
I seem to recall there were some pictures posted a while back of several NYC subway cars on a Hollywood studio back lot, but that wouldn't explain the snow. Or maybe it became this car: http://www.trainweb.org/elso/srs140a.htm
No, the SRS car was built from a brand new spare shell, not an existing car. Intriguing idea though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No. The cars sitting in the Hollywood backlot were R-27/30 cars (aka B-Division Redbirds). They were used in "Die Hard w/A Vengence" and "Money Train".
I seem to recall there were some pictures posted a while back of several NYC subway cars on a Hollywood studio back lot, but that wouldn't explain the snow.
Nah, those were R27-30's. See Here:
http://www.nycrail.com/rollingstock/r27_30.htm
Those pictures are horrifying! How can such thoughtless people mutilate Redbirds like those... Then again, this is Hollywood we speak of. What's with the 'RTA' logo replacing the MTA's in the 4th photo? What does it mean?
Mr. Natural sez ... :)
Those pictures are horrifying! How can such thoughtless people mutilate Redbirds like those... Then again, this is Hollywood we speak of. What's with the 'RTA' logo replacing the MTA's in the 4th photo? What does it mean?
Those were the BMT/IND's version of the redbirds, the R27-30's. In the late 80's-early 90's the R27-30's were being scrapped anyway, so I guess the movie studio bought a few when NY was scrapping them. The would have been cut up anyway, so at least they lasted a little longer than if they would have been sent right to be scrapped. And it is sort of cool that they made it to Hollywood, CA even if the end of their lives was spent in a studio backlot.
The "RTA" must've been for the last movie they were used it, obviously not "set" in NY. I don't know what the final movie they were used in was. I don't know all the cities that call their transportation systems "RTA". I know New Orleans calls their's "RTA", but I doubt they only have trolley and bus lines.
They were used in "Money Train", which of course is set in NY.
Cleveland's transit system is also RTA (full name Greater Cleveland RTA) but they never operated any cars looking like hte redbirds (even their heavy rail Red Line uses overhead catenary.
Or maybe it became this car:
http://www.trainweb.org/elso/srs140a.htm
Wow, that's cool. I can't believe that was an R33! It also must win the prize fpr the NYC Subway car that traveled the greatest distance from home to Australia!
I don't think it is a R17. I enlarged the photo up to 400% and can't find the little opening for the emergency handle to pop out the side windows.
I like to rule out the car as being able to operate under its own power as all the underbody equipment seems to be missing.
I do note a set of trucks is on the other side of the car body, but the lead truck on the left is not the typical GSI cast truck. It looks like a freight car truck.
It does have SOME underside equipment, but most of it has been stripped.
My guess is it was acquired by someone for conversion into a diner as no museum has a Redbird (or would want one) in such raggedy condition. Not to mention the trucks are missing. Almost looks like it's proped up on 'crates' like an abandoned car in the inner-city.
- The season is winter
- The location is north of the Snow Line(the southernmost line in the US along which snow can fall)
- Thr location is likely not in Manhattan or in the denser parts of NYC, but it IS apparently in an urbanized area or in a factory yard of some sort. (Urbanized areas include suburbs.)
- The redbird has been abandoned for a while, and apparently came from a work train, if you posters are right about the yellow doors.
- It may have been abandoned or relegated to work train status before or during the '70s and '80s (note the hint of two-sign display above the front door, common in the era before the current color coding of NY's subway system! By two-sign display, I mean the usage of letters or numbers in one sign and the destinations in another sign.
By two-sign display, I mean the usage of letters or numbers in one sign and the destinations in another sign.
Which all Redbirds still have.
It may have been abandoned or relegated to work train status before or during the '70s and '80s (note the hint of two-sign display above the front door, common in the era before the current color coding of NY's subway system!
Keep in mind though that the "two sign" system never ended for the redbirds.
Thanx for that info... forgot about that... to me, anyway, redbirds were those trains that ran all over the Flushing line when I was growing up, and we tended to use the Manhattan IND lines more (as well as the occasional IRT, particularly on the "blue", "orange" and "green" routes such as A, C, B, F, 4, 5, 6, and E)... plenty of new-look trains and Kawasakis, which preferred one bold sign over what would've been the "railfan window" on earlier trains, emblazoned with the route's number or letter. I was born in 1979.
Did you use a flash on that picture? Was it a special tour of city hall loop and allowed?
Actually I took that picture, I used a flash. It was a special tour. Besides it's the rear end of the train so I don't think the motorman would care :-)
If you took that picture, why does Peter Dougherty hold the copyright?
Oops, maybe that is one of Pete's. :-p
It's a nice shot, whoever took it.
my observations
1.
It is not an R17, those glass circles were above the middle windows openings.
2. it is not in the current redbird style, but it is in the 1860s redbird paint scheme
Yeah, the 1860's Redbirds were really something...They had two conductors assigned to them and the fair was collected onboard :)
HAHAHA.
Peace,
ANDEE
1960s..
This may be a far-out guess, but for quite a number of years there was a subway car, or I should say the front 1/4 or 1/3 of one, serving as the front part of a delicatessen on the north side of Hempstead Turnpike in Farmingdale, which would be less than a block south of the LIRR tracks to Ronkonkoma.... It was removed about a year or two ago. I was inside a few times; the motorman's cab was complete and the front roll sign worked.
No trucks, but if you listened carefully the air compressor would come on from time-to-time.....
3 doors 6 side windows .................?...............!
homeless shelter ?
This car is defenitly within the R21/22 range. I know a majority of these cars went to work service, although not one ever had the "redbird" scheme. One R21 was painted green with one R17.
As for the town, looks like Upstate New York, maybe near Albany. Or it could be Kunembunkport Maine, but I don't recall any of these cars going up there.
I'm stumped on this one!!
^^^"Or it could be Kunembunkport Maine, but I don't recall any of these cars going up there."^^^
No its not Seashore Trolley Museum. They are actively pursuing a
set of red birds, as well as IRM. It's still the question of
liability with the asbestos. IMO.
;-) Sparky
I know its probably not because someone would definitely have mentioned it but I keep on thinking of the car in the schoolyard by the Marlboro Houses. I always pass it when I go to Spumoni Gardens.
I keep thinking that building is school also. People keep saying it looks like an industrial building. I don't think so at all. It looks loke a school to me. I don't see any evidence that it would be an industrial building.
I think you're talking about PS 248 (or is it PS 246?) It's near Coney Island Yard. But not that close.
IIRC, the Red Birdie at the school visible from the West End Line
is an R-16. And is complete on the exterior and does not have
yellow doors.
Also earlier in some of the posts its refered to as being 6688. Being a Branford member of 18 years, our R-17 arrived in tack.
;-) Sparky
Nice try Sarge, but the car that used to sit in the lot of that school in Bensonhurst was an R-27/30 Redbird (all four doors 'n all the B-Division trimmings).
Doug, I don't know if this can help, but I found this picture lying around my house. I see you in it. Maybe you can remember where it was taken & solve Dave's mystery.
You mutilated both Sparky and Mike Pompili! :(
BTW, you and On The Juice appear to be more prominent than the rest of that motley bunch! :)
Wow, Jeff has all the luck. He always seems to have his camera handy. Just last week he showed us photos he took of the first M1 passing through the Woodhaven Station in over 40 years on the old LIRR Rockaway branch, and then a photo of Selkirk at the controls of an R10 in a rare shot of 76th street station ---- And now he's solved the mystery redbird photo! It's amazing that some of the people in that photo here didn't even remember the field trip that day in the snow!
Well, if you drank enough beers you wouldn't remember anything either...
Been there, done that. Wait a minute - what were we just talking about?
:)
Yeah, wonder why he never took the detective exam. He's look neat with a gold shield, no? :)
No such thing as a detective's exam. Detective isn't a civil service promotion and they aren't supervisors.
Wow ... I always thought that was a promotional. Guess I should have visited the station more often in my youth. Unfortunately, it was to hang out with my buddies at end of shift and not "professionally." A misguided yoot for sure. :)
Well, it is a sort of promotion. They get a different shield, higher pay, and a different union. (DEA instead of PBA) However since its not civil service there is no test, its 50% merit, 50% who you know. As far as civil service is concerned they are still considered police officers. Above all they are NOT supervisors. As a uniformed cop for all my years I never liked some (not all) detective's holier than thou attitude. Especially in their fancy suits. So when I made sergeant it was gratifying to know that even though I was uniformed I was their boss too and could give them orders. To be honest, I was a very decent boss to cops and civilian employees, only wrote up two in 4 yrs as sgt and both times I was ordered to from higher ranks, but I do have to admit I did like to yell at and boss around defectives detectives!! Sometimes I treated them worse than their perps!!
Heh. Yeah, I've known a few that were ... well ... what you tell the desk sargeant when they require ... ummm ... extra attention. :)
Bronx 8th at the 52 ... they weren't so bad, and half of them were JUST PLAIN NUTS. Good drinking buddies, although a couple of them required that I apply a lot of spackle when they came up to visit and decided to shoot some flies on the wall. Heh.
I plead the fifth.:)
I plead the fifth.:)
Jack Daniels or Johnny Walker?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, I don't remember that sidetrip. Musta been when I was still waking up. However, gotta talk to that barber of yours, buddy ... I think he took a little too much off the top. That can cause brain damage. :)
[Musta been when I was still waking up.]
You mean toking up...LOL!
I missed the passing of the BONG (sans "bing") ceremony TOO?!?!?! Dammit! I gotta get a quieter hotel room next time ... :)
I thought Bingbong was with you.:)
Definitely gotta get out more often, dewd. :)
Oh, c'mon Sarge, I can see the cut-n-paste lines in the photo. No fare.
The mystery continues.
My observations
1. ThIS IS NOT A REDBIRD, the front sign area is not black
The car is in the origional R29/R33ML/R36ML paint scheme
2. The yellow door windows do not have the "frame" of the modern subway cars, so the doors are from an R12, R14, R16, R17, R21, Or R22
3. It is not an R17. (the car does not have the little glass panels above the center windows)
so... This brings up a few questions
1. When had all of the cars painted in the 1960s red scheme been repainted into another color?
2. when were the first R12,15,16,17,21,22 painted yellow?
3. Were any R21/22s painted in the origional R29/33ml/36ml paint scheme?
My observations
1. ThIS IS NOT A REDBIRD, the front sign area is not black
The car is in the origional R29/R33ML/R36ML paint scheme
2. The yellow door windows do not have the "frame" of the modern subway cars, so the doors are from an R12, R14, R16, R17, R21, Or R22
3. It is not an R17. (the car does not have the little glass panels above the center windows)
so... This brings up a few questions
1. When had all of the cars painted in the 1960s red scheme been repainted into another color?
2. when were the first R12,15,16,17,21,22 painted yellow?
3. Were any R21/22s painted in the origional R29/33ml/36ml paint scheme?
I have the answer. I figured SOMEONE would have guessed by now. The picture was taken in the 1965-68 era in Danbury, CT. (Probably closer to 65 since it looks like it was just delivered) The car pictured was NEVER a TA owned car. It is a R-33 body that was a add on from St. Louis car co. for Sperry Rail Service. Sperry modified the car to the point where is looks NOTHING like a R-33 except for the roofline. It was numbered SRS 140 and outfitted with diesel engines. The car toured the country for SPERRY for years but NEVER, EVER set foot...uh... wheel... onto TA property. The car is now preserved at a museum in....AUSTRALIA! See the link below for a pic of the car in it's current configuration.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/srs140.jpg
-Mark
Look here: The answer hint may have been posted days ago, but no one picked up on it:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=450731
I cant believe that run down train in the original photo became the Australia Sperry car!
Didn't notice that post... Thanks!
If I follow this correctly, the picture of the snowy Redbird was taken at the Sperry shop in Danbury, Connecticut around 1966?
That is correct!
Damn....and Mike Pompili was thinking that it was an early scrapped R-33...he was the closest to guessing...yet no Cohiba for the man!
You win the prize!
Thanks. I looked up the museum web site that owns the car now (the Dorrigo Steam Railway and Museum, www.dsrm.org.au) but they have no email contact listed on their site. I'd send them the photo for comment or to add to their collection but they don't seem to want to be contacted.
Try sending it to webmaster@dsrm.org.au
I did, it bounced.
Yeah, they probably don't want to be inundated with rapid transit foamers storming their country from the US. :)
A spare shell would have doors, cutouts for bulkhead marker lights, and markings (wiring holes?) where the sealed beam headlights attach?
>>> I have the answer. I figured SOMEONE would have guessed by now. The picture was taken in the 1965-68 era in Danbury, CT. <<<
Where is your PROFF? Do you have other pictures of the location so we can match the background? Or were you just speculating that this is the identity of that car?
We will, of course accept your assertions without further proof if you do not want to compromise your sources — and Tony Blair will vouch for you.
Tom
Today I was suring up the #4 line to Woodlawn finding & photgraphing Redbirds on the #4 line when I was @ Bedford Park Boulevard & saw a set of R62A from the #1 line @ Concourse Yard around the area where they are keeping the scrap Redbirds. Does anybody know what they were doing there? Because there is rumor that the #4 line is going to get R62A but fom the #3 line.
"Because there is rumor that the #4 line is going to get R62A but fom the #3 line."
The #4 line will receive a mixed set of R142/R142A cars, very few or none of the cars are scheduled to be on the #4, many of the R62A'S from the old #6 and #1 lines are going to Corona Yard as we speak.
And you made the same mistake I did in an earlier post, Concourse Yard is for the R68's on the B and D line. Jerome yard next door is where the R62 and R142A's for the #4 line are stored at.
The 3 will be getting a full fleet of R-62's from the 4. Until all of the R-142's have arrived, the 4 will be running the 3's R-62A's in exchange. I think some R-62A's will remain on the 4 permanently, with ten cars running on the shuttle.
That's the plan that I've heard, but AFAIK nothing's happened yet. There were rumors that the transfer would take place the weekend of the Redbird fantrip, but it didn't.
"And you made the same mistake I did in an earlier post, Concourse Yard is for the R68's on the B and D line. Jerome yard next door is where the R62 and R142A's for the #4 line are stored at.
That was not a mistake. Normally, Concourse yard has six #4 trains stored there every night. However, the R-62As were not for the #4 line. They were 240th Street cars. They were in Concourse yard for 'wheel truing'. The wheel truing machines at 207th St and at 239th St. were either down or too busy so the cars were sent to Concourse to have the wheels cut.
"The wheel truing machines at 207th St and at 239th St. were either down or too busy so the cars were sent to Concourse to have the wheels cut."
Well 239St yard was finally clear of snow on Thursday. Maybe that contibuted to the unusual movements.
Da Beastmaster
Nope!!! The cars arrived in Concourse yard on or around 2/15 and were cut on 2/16. The snow didn't fall until the 17th.
Transfer point.
Peace,
ANDEE
It could be for training purposes. Numbers would be helpful.
Jerome personnel need familiarization with Westinghouse Cam propulsion package and NYAB brake system.
There COULD be a corresponding set of R-62s at Livonia to train them on GE/WABCO equipment.
The R-62/62A swap per se seems to have been abandoned due to O/T concerns. Plan now R-142s to replace Redbirds on 4 first, then R-62s as they enter service. R-62s will go to 3, R-62As 3 to 7. Last remaining R-62As back to Jerome for S.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Looks like R-62 set 1506-1510 is the "School Train" at Livonia. Been there for almost two weeks. Need confirmation of cars at Concourse. Believed to be 1776-1780. These may be unofficial trransfers like 2155 was at Corona for several months in 2001 and early 2002.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
OK, here's part of the story:
2231-2235 (#1) were at CCY last week for a trip through the Wheel Truing machine.
Still don't know where 1776-1780 are (Jerome?...).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
They are at Livonia, but have not yet been stickered blue. Also, as a sidenote, 1756-1760 are also on the #3 line. I have been in each trainset on the #3. I do not believe that there is anything but R142As at Westchester now.
If the stickers on the R 62 As were red, then they came came from the # 1 line. If the stickers were blue or yellow than they came from the # 3 line.
I do remember seeing this train this morning. It had a 9 bullet up front and did not have blue stickers. It was in the 2xxx series, and was a 5 car set. It was right in front of, if not coupled to a set of redbirds (10).
You can't forget purple! That means they come from Corona.
Sure we can...
LONG LIVE YELLOW AND BLACK STICKERS WITH PURPLE DIAMONDS!
On Broadway at W. 50th St. the Forbidden Broadway Diner has an R-17 front facing North on the corner of Bway. Does anyone know which car was used to make this diner entrance? The rest of the diner is styled to resemble the rest of the "subway car"...
[On Broadway at W. 50th St. the Forbidden Broadway Diner has an R-17 front facing North on the corner of Bway. Does anyone know which car was used to make this diner entrance?]
I remember that place as "Ellen's Stardust" diner, with the mocked-up subway car entrance. "Ellen" is Ellen Hart, a former Miss Subways who now owns several diners in Manhattan.
IIRC, Ms. Hart wanted to incorporate a subway car into the Stardust diner, and even purchased one at a Transit Museum auction for that purpose. After learning of the headache and expense of having the car moved, she donated it back and had a mock-up built.
Just a funny note: I maintained the CD jukebox sound system at the diner. Didn't make fifty bucks a week. CI peter
It's a good fabrication, though. And a G-scale Union Pacific F-3 diesel runs along near the ceiling on a hanging loop track ROW.
When Thurston, Mike Pompili and I ate there shortly after the holidays, we noticed an MTH Redbird set on an oval track running around a holiday scene near the front of the diner. Also, a couple of good-condition enamel straphandles (like the ones used on R-1/9s) were on the wall of a booth near the doorway.
Great place for railfans to hang out and grab a burger and a beer.
Almost forgot: alot of the waiters and waitresses at Ellen's Stardust are aspiring or moonlighting actors/actresses and will often break out in song between their table waiting.
I once had the unfortunate luck to be bringing my wife and kids to Radio City to see "Blues Clues". As we passed by Ellen's diner, my kids insisted on eating there. Well, the entertainment was fine (singing waiters and waitresses)but the food was something else altogether. Expensive with TINY portions, stale and horrible taste is being charitable. As someone who has worked in midtown for years, I knew the reputation, but my kids had to experience it for themselves. The whole staff should have been tarred and feathered for masquerading as a restaurant.
Hot Lunch!
If you want to see a real NY subway car and real NY restaurant in one place...go to Staten Island to Golden's Kosher Deli, on Richmond Ave. just south of the Staten Island Mall. My wife and I were there last December. A real R1-9 car is inside, complete with tables for those who wish to eat in the "dining car." And, BTW, excellent NY kosher deli foods - corned beef, pastrami, pickles, knishes, etc.
Ironically, this is the only borough where the R1-9s never ran.
Can someone please describe what this person does? Thanks, in advance, to whoever answers.
I'm not too sure, but I think they have to do with public relations with the line, meaning they wouldn't be in charge of the train crew or anything. The thing is, I don't like the way Straphangers critiques the subway based on each line, b/c a line isn't really a line. It's several parts of a line put together. Like the F for example. If you live in Queens and work in Manhattan, you really don't care whether or not that F continues out to Brooklyn or not. My point though is that if you send a line through an area where it gets really crowded for a few stops but then the rest of the line is relatively quiet, but then you have one or two other trains in the same scenario in the same crowded area but with quiet for the rest of the ride, all three of those lines will be looked upon as quiet and the crowded area will never be targeted. I know this doesn't even come close to answering your question, but thanks for getting me thinking.
"I'm not too sure....."
Good answer......
In any event, a Line Superintendent is the manager who is responsible for the day to day RTO operation of any particular line. He/she is responsible for the performance of the train operators, conductors, tower operators, yard dispatchers, train service supervisors and the other superintendents assigned to that line. He's responsible for on time performance as well as other key operational statistics. He also must work with his counterparts in the Division of Car Equipment, Stations, and MOW to insure high quality in all aspects of service on that particular line.
Thanks. Does each line get one or do some get combined? For example, does the V get its own super or does it use the same as the F? I figure the J and Z share as to the 1 and 9. Finally, who do they report to?
My guess is they (ultimately) report to the Vice President of Subways (which was Joe Hoffman, though I understand he has retired, or is about to retire).
Who will succeed him?
I don't know.
"...which was Joe Hoffman, though I understand he has retired, or is about to retire)."
Joe Hoffman retired last year, I don't know who replaced him as VP, Dept. of Subways
"Joe Hoffman retired last year, I don't know who replaced him as VP, Dept. of Subway."
Michael A. Lombardi is Acting Senior Vice President, DOS.
To get the other question(s) out of the way: Line Superintendents report to General Superintendents, General Superintendents report to Assistant Chief Transportation Officers, Assistant Chief Transportation Officers report to the Chief Transportation Officer, who in turn reports to the Sr. VP, DOS. Phew.
WOW! I can see some SERIOUS fiscal savings for the state right there! By golly, just chitcanning most of those layers of croissant would pay for the SAS project! :)
Then again, maybe that's NOT such a good idea ... after all, the study group formed to reorganize (don't you MNRR and LIRR "customers" feel that "tingle" where you sit?) might well end up doing THIS:
A guy stopped at a local gas station and, after filling his tank, he paid the bill and bought a soft drink. He stood by his car to drink his cola and watched a couple of men working along the roadside.
One man would dig a hole two or three feet deep and then move on. The other man came along behind him and filled in the hole. While one was digging a new hole, the other was 25 feet behind filling in the hole. The men worked right past the guy with the soft drink and went on down the road. "I can't stand this," said the man tossing the can into a trash container and heading down the road toward the men.
"Hold it, hold it," he said to the men. "Can you tell me what's going on here with all this digging and refilling?"
"Well, we work for the government and we're just doing our job," one of the men said.
"But one of you is digging a hole and the other fills it up. You're not accomplishing anything. Aren't you wasting the taxpayers' money?"
"You don't understand, mister," one of the men said, leaning on his shovel and wiping his brow. "Normally there's three of us: Me, Elmer and Leroy. I dig the hole, Elmer sticks in the tree and Leroy, here, puts the dirt back. Elmer's job's been cut... so now it's just me an' 'ol Leroy.
Most lines have an individual Line Supt. One exception is the G & R where a Line Supt. handles both. I believe that the TS/GC Shuttle & the Franklin Shuttle also share a supt. with other lines.
Line Supt's report to General Supt's. There are 5 General Supt's for the various lines. District 1 & 2 are IRT East & West Side. District 3, 4 and 5 are IND/BMT. There are also generals for the C division.
General Supt's. report to an Assistant Chief transportation Officer - 3, I think. They report to the Chief transportation Officer.
The CTO, The Chief Mechanical Officer (CMO) and the Chief Station Officer (CSO), reported to the Cheif of Service Deloivery who, in turn, reported to the Senior VP for Subways. When the former Senior VP retired, the Chief of Service Delivery took the Acting SVP position. I believe that the Chief of Service Delivery position could be eliminated.
Franklin Shuttle shares with the Q; 42 St Shuttle shares with the 4. I think that the M and J also share a Sup't.
Thank you for posting that.
Question: Since a yard can serve multiple lines, does that mean various line superintendents share the responsibility for the yard? Where does the yard superintendent's authority begin and end?
Some lines are also in charge of the yards. For example, the E line superintendant is in charge of Jamaica Yard. The J/M/Z superintendant is also in charge of ENYD.
Is the Superintendent also responsible for budgeting and planning? Can a Superintendent ask for more service, or suggest where service should be cut.
Service levels are set by Operations Planning's schedules office, but the Line Superintendent can request modifications.
David
Is this a promotional "work your way up" position or do you apply for something like this?
[He/she is responsible for the performance of the... tower operators....]
THAT is the cause of some service problems: A tower that serves multiple lines is controlled by one of them. For example, 59th-Columbus Circle is controlled by the "A" Line Superintendent, so the tower operators have to be loyal to the A, which pretty much guts the B, C, and D.
you submit a resume. it is not under civil service. in dob most were in the sld title previously. i assume subways are the same.
when the 2nd av line is complete the ta is planning to put the Q,W, N, or R on a run from BB or CI to 125
via
brighton exp/westend/sea beach/4th av
-bridge-
broadway exp
2nd av local to 125th
Well the R would come from 95 and probably be a local if that was the line picked. A local could very easily go into 63rd w/o creating congestion if you extend those stub tracks that end just north of 57th into the two 63rd St tracks.
The express tracks are already connected to the 63rd Street line. Why not use them? Say Broadway has the N (exp), Q (exp), R (loc), and W (loc) -- the N, R, and W can run via 60th (as they do now) and the Q can stay on the express and run via 63rd to 2nd.
Well that puts the R back on QB making a third QB local service which is what I was trying to avoid as per previous threads saying that was too much.
Sorry I was thinking of the other thread. Yes David, good point. I agree that it makes no sense to send the R through b/c it is on the local.
Actually I do believe that those tracks aren't Stub tracks. They run right around the corner onto 63rd st, right now any Broadway train could run through the 63rd st connector. However to reach the connector the R would need to be combined with, or pass in front of, the express trains. Since that connector track is currently used to layup the Q trains, something would need to be done with them. Rather than doing something like moving the R from Queens Blvd, why not just run the Q past it's current turnaround at 57th st, through the connector to the Northern portion of the SAS.
If there is to be a connection between the MannyB northside tracks [B and D] and the SAS [? and ?], then perhaps the could make a comeback after it's nearly certain death when the MannyB northside reopens. The would cross the northside and provide a direct SAS link to the lower east side for Brighton Riders via the Grand St connection (maybe only peak hours or something, most of the residential, and thus most of the 24-7 demand is on the northern portion, the businesses really only need service 7am-9pm on weekdays), the (Q) would continue on the southside as always, but with a run up to 125th St via 63rd st connector now.
If the W is swallowed by the B when the MannyB northside opens then perhaps the W should provide the full SAS run, 125th-Water St. I suppose something coming in from queens would need to be tapped to work the southern half of the SAS, 63rd or so to Water St. An amusing idea would be to grab the R, turning it 180 degrees and making northbound's suddenly go south! Sadly the bellmouths don't work this way, but it would be a great way to mess with tourists. I suppose the V, the E possibly (it's already terminates in Lower Manhatten, right?), and maybe the R (running via 63rd, the MannyB, and still running to 95th as the 4th Ave local, killing any chance for the N to ever get on the bridge, but that would leave like no service south of Grand St other than the W).
Course I don't know why I'm even bothering, this thing is how far off again? At this point what will run down the SAS is the LEAST of their concerns, I think they're more intrested in where the TBMs will run long before trains will.
We're all bothering about this b/c it is fun. But anyway. . .
I didn't realize that those stub tracks DID actually already go around the 60th St tracks feeding into the two center 63rd St tracks. I could've sworn there was a wall there. However, this isn't shown in the diagram. Where did you get this from?
It's on this site... look at the link when you follow it :-)
And those tracks have been used during some G.O.'s over the past couple of years. When they're in use, trains switch into the completed portion of the Lexington Avenue station instead of dead-ending behind the wall there (the eventual Second Avenue connector).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know about that. I remember several times being on a Q local during the 9/11 reroutes. We would come up the Bway Lcl, supposed to follow the R route to Queens, but b/c of 60th St reconstruction on the weekend, we would go through 63rd. But even though there were no Q expresses running, they would still always make sure we crossed over to the express track before we reached 57th. If you could access 63rd from the local track, why would they not have done that? And also why did they always terminate the regular Q at Times Sq when they were sending Rs through 63rd?
If the R was switching to the express track before 57th, Q trains would have terminated at Times Square to avoid getting in the way.
It's right off NYCsubway.org's track maps drawn by Peter Dougherty, the link is right on the homepage.
I suppose you could be right about the wall. To the best of my knowledge no Broadway BMT train has ever run out the 63rd st Connector and it could be that, if it's just some tail tracks for the Q right now, the MTA erected a temporary cinderblock wall there.
You are right, it's remarkably fun to try and figure out how something like a new subway route will fit in with the exsisting system. I suppose that its similar to Dungeons and Dragons or other Role Playing games, I never got into them, but had friends who did, they'd sit around for hours talking about some place that exsisted only in their heads. For me a few hours playing BAHN and rerouting the subways where I want is just about the same (cept that planning subways, no matter how unlikely their constuction, is at least somewhat more useful than D&D).
just checked my maps
in the reroutes in may-november 1995, the Q went to 21 street queensbridge
Really? Off Broadway? Cause in '95 wasn't the southside closed? And if the southside was closed that means that the B, D, and Q were running down 6th Ave and over the northside of the MannyB. Thus it would be an orange Q running down 6th ave through the 63rd st. connector through Roosevelt Island to 21 st Queensbridge, just like the F today.
Course I may be wrong, I don't have any idea of the timeline of bridge closings, and my oldest map dates all the way to the Multi-Lingual 2002 edition. Does anyone know where on the internet moderately old subway maps can be found?
no during middays in '95 the bridge was totally closed, all service was through montague street tunnel (spelling?)
Wow, ok, thanks. Sorry about that.
In 1995, the entire bridge was closed middays. There was little choice but to send the Q up Broadway. The B was a shuttle in Brooklyn (CPW local had only the C) and the D terminated at 34th, I think, as it does now.
That connection is used quite frequently for weekend reroutes, often carrying the R.
I loved going through there, especially w/ an R-32 Q during the 9/11 reroutes. It goes into a curve that seems never-ending. The curve is so gradual it just keeps coming and coming and coming.
The "stub tracks" he's talking about are the LOCAL track extensions (not shown on map. The 60 St. leads are actually wyes between exp. and local). And there is a concrete block room built on the northbound (The exp. tracks always continued to 63rd, and are still used daily by Q and W layups from behind the wall at Lex.)
He's right; they were silly not to use the local track stubs (which once allowed R's to terminate at 57th, before weekend service to Continental began), because then they could still send locals directly into the connection without plugging the expresses (as well as still terminate locals there when the connection is not being used.
ASSUMING 2 Av even gets built if it were to be completed the Q would be sent up from after 57 St then use the 63 St connector and turn north onto 2 Av since it would make the most sense.
By the time the Second Avenue line is opened, the letter Q will probably be abandoned from the English language as superfluous just like the thorn.
I was down at Brighton a couple of weeks ago. There are no trains running between BB and CI right now, because of the construction at CI. Near CI the tracks aren't that bad, but from the looks of it, the elevated structure closer to BB doesn't have much life left in it. The whole thing is completely rusted all over the place. The yellow paint is peeling off. The concrete monstrousity over Ocean Pkwy has visible water damage, and it looks like it's only hours away from crumbling into small pieces.
Watch what's going to happen: they'll finish rebuilding Coney Island, and have a grand reopening with baloons and confetti. Bloomy will probably show up. Then a few months later they'll just close everything down again, and begin tearing up the tracks. Maybe if they're lucky they'll confine the rehab to weekends, for the next four years, like the #7 line.
It seems like it's a major waste not to be taking advantage of the whole line shut down like that. The line is already shut down; rehabbing it won't make things any worse than it already is. At least slap on a coat of paint, or two.
There's still time, I think, since Coney Island won't be finished for a year or two. A year should be enough time, if everything's shut down and work can be done full time, instead of weekends only. But, of course it won't happen. It makes too much sense.
Go back again, they have surrounded the structure part by part to remove all the lead and will be repainting and putting new concrete around the legs at the base.
Don;t worry about the general structure of the Els, as they are still going strong. Sure the paint peeling might be misleading, but don't let that fool you. All of the Els are like that.
Listen to this one! At about 6:05PM this evening, I enter 77 St on the R line. The token clerk is there as usual. As I pay my fare and go through I can't help but notice that an opening in the wall right in front of me is there with the sign "women" above it. Anyone would think that this is the women's bathroom but it was barred up with bars bent out of shape, and behind the bars were two boys at age about 16 or 17. They are talking loudly with each other behind these bars. I turn back towards the token clerk but he is still acting normal. I turn again to the boys, they curse at me for looking at them, and I hear my train coming in and go for it. Does anybody have any idea what was or could have been going on??? This was one freaky scene.
Naybe the token clerk brought his brats to work with him???
looks like njt is taking no chances. they placed a alp at the new secaucus xfer. it had crew on board just waiting to be called. the finaly learnrd to be ready
How do you know that this was a protecting crew?
i was able to see the crew in the cab from the turnpike.(traffic was very slow at that point). they where out there tonite also.
What are they protecting for?
We've gone around and around on this, but I suggest the following criteria:
1) Cross platform transfers to Midtown via 6th Avenue Express, Midtown via 7th Avenue Express, and Downtown Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan.
2) Balanced loading on the bridge 24/7.
3) Same letters have the same routes and terminals at all times.
Based on this, I come to the following:
Q: full time on MannyB H tracks and Brighton, local on Brighton, Express on Broadway.
B: Full time on MannyB A/B tracks and West End. Express on 4th Avenue and 6th Avenue. Full time to 205th on Concourse via local.
R: full time in Montigue Tunnel and 4th Avenue local.
D: Weekdays on Brighton. Express on Brighton, MannyB A/B tracks, Express on 6th Avenue, Concourse Express to Bedford Park. Unlike today, the D wouldn't have two different terminals on the Concourse, and run express at some times and local at others.
W: Weekdays on Sea Beach: Express on 4th Avenue, Manny B H tracks, Broadway Express, Astoria local.
N: Nights and weekends on Sea Beach. Runs as it does today -- through the tunnel. Since it's off the bridge, there is only one service on each side of the bridge nights and weekends, with two in the tunnel.
M: Same as today.
Z: Rush hours on Brighton Express, to add a few trains to the Brighton and Lower Manhattan.
Interesting. Just one thing: You better plan on increasing the frequency of the R! Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, City Hall, and all the Bway Lcl has only it to serve them under your plan.
Why switch terminals on the B and D line? That does not make any sense.
Presumably to keep full-time West End service into Manhattan as is done now on the W. If the B remains part-time, something else must run when the B doesn't. Could be the W, but for some reason, most folks here want the W to go away or only run during rush hours. That means the B would have to be full-time. But it's overkill to have two full-time trains on the Concourse line or four services on CPW on weekends. So the D would need to become part-time if the B goes to full. And the full-time service has to serve 205th Street. So the B and D would have to switch terminals, and probably rush-hour express and local services as well.
But you could also send the part-time B down the Brighton line express tracks to Brighton Beach and the full-time D down the West End line to Coney Island and avoid all that. The Q can remain the 24/7 Brighton local under that scenario too.
That is the plan I keep hearing about.
I would say to have the nice arragement pf the D as the part time express on the Brighton, and the Q the full time local, as the other person said, make the B the full time service via West End. (almost identical to the D proposal being floated aroundnow, except for CPW. As it is, I have been wondering why Concourse doesn't have all day express service (reversing about 12:30-1) like the J, 6, 7 and even the W on Astoria originally. So then the B cound be the full time local to 205th, and the D all day to Bedford Pk. Only problem is all other times, the Concourse, which has always had CPW exp. service, would now have the local, and if the C is run, that would be unnecessary, and if it is not run, no direct way from 59th to 50th. when the A is exp. So it seems, switching the B and D in Bklyn is the best way.
As for the Sea Beach, if all of this is being done to keep balanced loading on the bridge, then obviously, the first thing to do would be to keep the N on the bridge evenings and weekends at least. But it seems that taking the N off the bridge to serve the local stops and lower Manhattan at those times is more important to them than restoring the familiar Chrystie era B/D service pattern.
I want to see the "Q" be exp on the Brighton...
N Broadway Line
2 Locals on CPW with 1 Express makes much more sense than 2 Express and 1 Local
Combining yours with LIRR's post r/t 2nd Avenue I see:
Broadway Express is via BRIDGE and via 63rd Street
Broadway Local is via TUNNEL and via 60th Street
6th Ave Express is via BRIDGE and north via 8th Avenue
6th Ave Local is via RUTGERS and north via 53rd Street or 63rd Street.
Using your plan after 2004 and before SAS:
(Q) Broadway Express : 179th Street to Coney Island via Brighton Local : All Times
(D) Sixth Ave Exp : Bedford Park to Brighton Beach via Brighton Exp : Days
(B) Sixth Ave Exp : 205th St to Coney Island via West End : All Times
(W) Broadway Local : Astoria to Bay Pky (rush) or 9th Ave (Days)
(F) Sixth Ave Lcl : 179th St (via 63rd St) to Coney Island via Culver : All Times
(V) Sixth Ave Lcl : Contential (via 53rd St) to Chambers WTC : Days
(E) Eighth Ave Exp : Jam Ctr (via 53rd St) to Kings Hwy via Culver Exp : Days (to WTC Noc)
(N) Broadway Express : Contintial (via 63) to Coney Island via Sea Beach : Days
(R) Broadway Local : Continetial (via 60) to 95th St via 4th Ave Lcl : All
Clearly all headways need to be adjusted to accomodate the Queens Blvd line since it will be difficult for it to manage 3 local and 3 express routings, so the QB gets &/or Remains maxed out on its TPH but it is shared over three manhattan trunks instead of two.
When SAS is built the (N) diverts to 125th Street, and other QB trains increase freq to keep that system maxed.
Elias
What will serve Astoria when the W is not running?
What will serve Astoria when the W is not running?
The (N) can do that.
Sorry for the omition.
But does the Sea Beach go over the Manhattan Bridge or stay in the Montague rathole? That was never spelled out and it means everything to me.....
But does the Sea Beach go over the Manhattan Bridge or stay in the Montague rathole? That was never spelled out and it means everything to me....
Yes, it WAS spelled out quite clearly, and you will be gratified to recall that I said: "All Broadway Express is via Bridge and via 63rd St; All Broadway Local is via Tunnel and via 60th Street"
This arrangement means that no train will have to cross infront of another anywhere on Broadway. (This will also therefore increase the total tph of Broadway.
Elias
I like your plan. It has a lot of common sense. I would prefer a few things a little different, but they would mainly be tweaks. I especially like the little "extra" of the Z train as a revival of the Bankers Special, though I don't see why it couldn't run express.
I think you would meet resistance to having the B as the full time concourse train and the D as part time, especially since this would kill 8th avenue express service to the bronx on weekends (I assume). But maybe it would encourage them to restore Brighton Expresses Sat/Sun. I don't really know how they can justify such long hours for the Fulton Street Express service but not Brighton.
I also like your Sea Beach/West End plans, but I think they would need another letter than "W" for the main Sea Beach service, for obvious reasons...
Better to switch the Brooklyn lines of the B and D. Then you could keep full-time D and part-time B service.
But it shouldn't have anything to do with 8th Avenue express service. Concourse has never had weekend express service to 8th Avenue (as far as I know).
I meant Concourse service running express on 8th Avenue, which it usually does 24/7. I'm assuming a B Concourse would run local between 145 & 59.
Oh, you meant 8th Avenue between 145th & 59th. I'm sorry. Ithought you meant below 59th.
To make it clearer, you may wish to say CPW instead of 8th Ave to designate the section from 59 to 145.
No offense intended Larry but I think your plan is pure bull@$%^!!!!! You are further emasculating the Sea Beach and enough is enough. Keep the frigging W and other lines off the Sea Beach route. That is reserved for my train and my train only, and move some other damn train off the Manny B and mine on it and out of the Montague rathole.
See Larry, you did it again.
What I think will satisfy Brooklyn rider is this plan of mines.
Service on NorthSide Manhattan Bridge:
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Service on SouthSide Manhattan Bridge:
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave to Canal Street, Manhattan (via Montague Tunnel); All stops from Canal (lower Manhattan) to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (via West End). Note: Midday terminate at 9th Ave Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends]: No Service, Use B for service to/from Brooklyn, Use R for service to/from Manhattan and N for service to/from Queens. Transfer between B N and R at 36th Street, Brooklyn.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service to/from Queens.
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn. Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
There would be too much weekend service on CPW, and not enough weekend service on Broadway. Broadway should not go back to having only the N and the R on weekends. Either the Q or W should run on weekends too. CPW does not need four weekend services - that would give it more service than the West Side IRT, which is much busier on weekends.
What is wrong with the Broadway line that it can't have full-time Brighton or West End service when the whole bridge is back in use? Why do the full-time services have to go to 6th Avenue? Why not Broadway?
What is wrong with the Broadway line that it can't have full-time Brighton or West End service when the whole bridge is back in use? Why do the full-time services have to go to 6th Avenue? Why not Broadway?
Unless if you cut either one of the 6th Ave Weekend Service and replace it with either one of Broadway line Q or W. Then that won't be hard all. Example: You still can replace the West End weekend B service with the W while you still have D in Brighton line on the Weekends when Q is not running. That way, riders doesn't have rely on the N too much to connect 6th Ave Service with Broadway Service Otherwise you can't have two service on West End and Brighton on the weekends. That why both, M doesn't run on West End on the weekends and Q doesn't run on Brighton on weekends. Maybe you can, I'm not sure about TA Service operation policy. Since both M and N doesn't carry that much ridership. I decided the shift the M over sea beach line on my plan.
I don't see why the W can't run 24/7. It does now and it would allow for a third weekend Broadway service. West End riders would have the B on weekdays and it would, of course, run express so there would be no loss of weekday express service to Manhattan.
I would like to see the W still running west end by 2004 when/after N.S. Manny B reopen. But its up to TA whether or not they will keep the W. Let say, they will, the chances of W run 24/7 via West End is 50/50 better than 0. If not, then it back to square one where the west end riders have the same old B and M service. We still have a long way to go in 2003. But time fly faster.
Is there a need for anything more than the B/M to be on the West End?
B/W on the West End would be nice for change.
I don't see why the W can't run 24/7. It does now and it would allow for a third weekend Broadway service.
W indeed have 24/7 full time service, Thanks to Stillwell Ave Rehab and N/W flip-flop.
All this Manhattan Bridge stuff and jumbled my brain. Will someone tell me which side of the tracks each train will run on, and which side is connected to 6th Avenue and which to Broadway. I have misplaced my map.
The original plan BEFORE ANY SUBWAY SERVICE CHANGES:
B and D trains run on North side of bridge (facing Willy-Bridge) and run up to 6th Ave. Formerly the original Broadway line route
N and Q trains run on South side of bridge (facing Brooklyn Bridge, and the sight you have been begging for the longest), and run up Broadway. Formerly the Nassau loop, before 1967.
Thanks Kool-D. You are also telling me that once the northside of the bridge was used by the Sea Beach back when I used to live in town, is that right? I seem to remember that we did travel on the northside back in the early 50's.
Yes, prior to November 26, 1967, Sea Beach trains ran on the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge.
Well, some qualification is necessary here. When the Sea Beach line first opened in 1915, the Broadway line was still under construction. Consequently Sea Beach trains of beautiful new BMT standards ran on the south side tracks to Chambers St. Not sure when they began running up Broadway.
I never thought I'd ever use the words "beautiful" and "BMT standards" in the same sentence.:)
When the Standards first came out they might be considered beautiful considering what some of the other trains must have looked like, but when the Triplexes came out in the 20's the B's were sent back to the minors where they belonged.
Let just say that N will return to the bridge. Then you have the B D on Northside and Q N and possibly W on the Southside.
The delays going into Prince would be a joke. Is it a good idea to take the W from the 60th St line, make it cross over to the express track just above 34th only to cross back just south of Prince at rush hour so the N could come from the local take its place on the bridge at that point? Things are already slow going into Prince.
I generally like your plan, but let me put in my 2 cents' worth here. I agree with easier transfers. As for bridge balancing, I have not seen posted on Subtalk the evaluation of a qualified engineer as to the importance of balanced bridge loads 24/7. I also take issue with your idea of running four southern division services through to Manhattan at night (Q,N,B,R) which seems to me to be a waste. The TA is running only 2 services from the southern division, Q and W, at night to Manhattan right now.
I therefore offer a different plan which would increase service levels at other times, provide easier transfers, and decrease the number of blind-end trains (currently E, J, Q, V, Z, with B and D temporarily so). Numbers in parentheses are tph in morning rush, northbound + southbound in that order:
V (10+12): rush from Kings Highway via Culver Local, 6th Av. Local, Queens Local; middays and evenings to 8 PM from Church Av.
F (7+9): Coney Island via Culver, 6th Av., to Jamaica--Hillside Av. Express, peak direction, Kings Highway to Ditmas, rush hours. Express in Brooklyn from Church Av. rush, middays, and evenings to 8 PM. Other times, local in Brooklyn. Nights, local all the way.
R (6+6): 71st Av. to 95th St. Fort Hamilton, Broadway local, all times except nights. Nights: shuttle 59th to 95th.
Z (6+6): Jamaica Center to 95th St. Fort Hamilton, express peak direction Eastern Parkway--Broadway Junction to Essex, Nassau, 4th Av., local, rush hours only.
J (6+6): Jamaica Center to Broad St., express peak direction Eastern Parkway--Broadway Junction to Essex, 6:30 AM to 8 PM.
M (6+6): Metropolitan Av. to Coney Island, express peak direction Myrtle Av. to Marcy Av., Nassau, Brighton local, rush hours; Metropolitan to Broad, local, middays and early evenings. Shuttle all other times.
K (6+6): Eastern Parkway--Broadway Junction, to 168th St.--Washington Heights, local, via Chrystie connector, 8th Av. local (vai W 4 St. connector), CPW local, 6:30 AM to 8 PM.
C (8+6): Euclid Av. to 168th St.--Washington Heights, local all the way, all times except nights.
B (9+9): Bedford Park Blvd. to Coney Island in rush, from 145th St. non-rush, via CPW local, 6th Av. express, skips DeKalb, express under 4th Av., West End, weekdays 6 AM to 9:30 PM. Seasonal weekend operation (Memorial Day to Labor Day), 7 AM to 8 PM. After 9:30 P.M. and weekends: shuttle.
Q (10+9): Jamaica Hillside via Broadway to Brighton Beach, express all the way, 6 AM to 9:30 PM. Seasonal weekend operation (Memorial Day to Labor Day, 7 AM to 8 PM.
D (8+8): 205th St.--Concourse to Coney Island, 24/7, as was prior to bridge switch.
W (6+9): Astoria, Broadway Local, via tunnel, 4th Av., West End Local rush, southern terminal Whitehall St. middays and early evenings, weekdays, 7 AM to 8 PM.
N (9+6): Astoria, Broadway Express, via bridge, skip DeKalb, 4th Av. express, Sea Beach, 7 AM to 8 PM weekdays. All other times: Local all the way and via tunnel.
E (12+12): Jamaica Center to Chambers St., all times, nights local.
I believe that the above plan could take pressure off the E by providing express service to lower Manhattan on the J and Z, provide direct service or much easier transfer from eastern division to midtown with the resurrected K, and provide an alternative transfer for Hillside riders to downtown with the Q to Union Square, for IRT downtown.
You have some nerve to make my D train a part time line, let alone giving Fred the shaft (pun intended, in reference to the Montague shaft). NYCT has a 2004 service plan NO WHERE NEAR WHAT YOU PIECE OF GARBAGE HAS TO OFFER. I can imagine Andee taking the B local train at 3 AM in the morning instead of the D Express to the Bronx he is accustomed to.
Was there really a need to insult Larry? Have we not learned from the last time this board had to be shut down?
>>>You have some nerve to make my D train a part time line...<<
HEY HEY HEY....It's MY D train, ok, our D train. 8-)
Peace,
ANDE
And as everybody knows, the Sea Beach is Fred's train, and for that matter all others who want to climb on board and claim the N as theirs as well. Hell, there is always room for one more, or two or ten. Simply put this is what I want for my Sea Beach and carried into perpetuity.
1. Make the train the Broadway Express.
2. Send it over the Manhattan Bridge and out of the Montague rathole.
3. Send it to Stillwell in Coney Island and finally past 86th Street.
What I would like as a bonus for my line is.
1. Make it an express in Manhattan.
2. Get it out of Astoria and give some other line that route, and make the northern terminal either 42nd Street or 57th.
That's not too much to ask, is it?
Uh, I like the concept of trunk lines dedicated to an outer boro and Manhattan. I.E., the Sea Beach Express terminating at forty deuce or 57th Street. Why not? Terminal stations have always had their place in the history of railroad travel. It's a dignified way to run a subway route.
As far as the Sea Beach Express goes, I agree, it does not get the "respect" it deserves. Although paralled by other lines in general, the area surrounding the S.B. is not that similar to the F line surroundings, or the Brighton line. It's a middle to low density area. Very residential off of 65th Street and the avenues. Plenty of backyard barbecues overlooking the line. It just seems like poor planning by the, well, whomever it is that controls these things, that it isn't run in a more serious manner. In any other city in the country, the Sea Beach and its coverage area would be seen as THE major line. It would be considered the primary transit corridor. In fact, I doubt even now if any other city has the equivalent. All those new lines out there in California and elsewhere, you know a lot of the ROW is through highway-like surroundings. Or standard railroad ROW.
My point is, there is more than enough potential ridership within walking distance to require a frequent dependable service. Even with the F train and the West End nearby. And anyone who's had to ride from Bay Parkway or 18th Avenue will understand the necessity of an express ride up 4th and over the bridge. This is a long trip, man! Bensonhurst needs express train service as much as East New York does!
Nice to hear someone who knows what the hell he's talking about when it comes to our train. Once the Sea Beach was considered the top BMT line in Brooklyn and most people liked riding a train in an open cut that didn't screech and make noise while you were on it, nor cut through neighborhoods like a knife. For some reason the TA insists that nothing can be done to improve the N, and for them it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is it any wonder that I hold them in such contempt?
Aww Kool-D ya didn't have to call his ideas GARBAGE, I'm shocked :-0. Making the D a part time line, give me a break its been a full time line for so many years.
From the birth of the Sixth Ave IND in 1940, the D line has undergone routing changes, it used to travel along the current Culver line, after the Church Ave extension in 1954. Like the A line, the D is a full time subway line. In 1990 NYCT had a bold plan for killing the A express line, making it a local, then the express in Brooklyn would be served by the H. It was shot down by politicians and most MTA board members after the public hearings on the bus and subway service cuts.
So, I might have gone a bit too extreme in calling the "Final offer" garbage, but will you and the riding public accept the fact that after 9 PM on weekdays and all weekend, Brighton line riders will have no direct access to the Bronx? Riders must change for the "B" local train at Dekalb or 34th st if that plan was implemented. And it is excruciating to ride a 205th st Bound "B" local making all stops along CPW.
No & that's why I see NO SENSE in doing such a thing, its outrageous and silly IMO. The B of all trains carrying the load for D riders, I don't think so and expess service in Manhattan on weekends would be lost.
Outrageous and silly plan is correct. So, part of the plan is PURE GARBAGE, in this instance. Fred does not like his Sea Beach tampered with an imposter line, I respect that as well as our Brighton line not being tampered with. The plus side on the Brighton line is that there are more well connected riders and the politicians who mave more "marbles" between their legs to prevent a conspiracy from NYCT in turning back on the Brighton line. It worked for the Franklin Ave Shuttle in the 2000 rebuild instead of being "abandoned in 2000".
Yup, its gonna be hard to NOT see the D return to the Brighton line like before 7/22/01 and with all the political connections and the riders, they won't stand for it.
(Yup, its gonna be hard to NOT see the D return to the Brighton line like before 7/22/01 and with all the political connections and the riders, they won't stand for it.)
Who are all these Brooklynites with political connections? I sure haven't seen the results around here.
So, I might have gone a bit too extreme in calling the "Final offer" garbage, but will you and the riding public accept the fact that after 9 PM on weekdays and all weekend, Brighton line riders will have no direct access to the Bronx?
Except before and after Yankee games (when specials can be operated), very few passengers (in relative terms) travel between Brooklyn and the Bronx. Yes, a few would be inconvenienced by not running a direct Brighton-Concourse service nights and weekends, but at the same time a few others would be convenienced (is that a word?) by running a direct West End-Concourse service nights and weekends. (I really don't understand this complaint. Aren't passengers from Brooklyn far more likely to need to transfer to another line than to ride up to the Bronx? Broadway has better transfers than 6th.)
And it is excruciating to ride a 205th st Bound "B" local making all stops along CPW.
Three minutes. If you find three minutes excruciating, bring a book. You can read it while you're seated in comfort on an R-68. The passengers waiting at local stations can't. Have you ever stood on the platform at 81st Street on a Sunday morning as four expresses, two moderately crowded A's and two D's each carrying fewer passengers than were standing on that platform, rattled by, to be eventually greeted by a crush loaded C train? I have. That's what happens when there isn't enough local service. And guess what: I was going to 6th Avenue, so I had to get off at 59th and wait for a D. I would have reached my destination 20 minutes earlier if the B ran instead of the D. But the passengers on those two D trains saved 3 minutes, and that's what counts, right?
Three minutes. If you find three minutes excruciating, bring a book. You can read it while you're seated in comfort on an R-68. The passengers waiting at local stations can't. Have you ever stood on the platform at 81st Street on a Sunday morning as four expresses, two moderately crowded A's and two D's each carrying fewer passengers than were standing on that platform, rattled by, to be eventually greeted by a crush loaded C train? I have. That's what happens when there isn't enough local service. And guess what: I was going to 6th Avenue, so I had to get off at 59th and wait for a D. I would have reached my destination 20 minutes earlier if the B ran instead of the D. But the passengers on those two D trains saved 3 minutes, and that's what counts, right?
You are so right.
This talk about the D line makes me remember when I lived on E. 16 Street near R, in the mid-80s. Used to live with a girl; her mother lived on 204th St, actually, Hull Ave, in The Bronx. On Saturdays I would ride with her all the way up there and she would stay there til' Monday. I always did appreciate the fact that I could sit down for the whole trip. On one train. Did a lot of reading....
Certainly, some people will find a use for whatever direct routings are implemented -- but I'm sure you'd agree that the people in your car when you got on were different from the people in the car when you got off.
And, again, what about all the people who live along the West End line who have friends and family in the Bronx? Why is it so terrible to consider giving them a direct link?
"but I'm sure you'd agree that the people in your car when you got on were different from the people in the car when you got off."
Oh, sure. I think the turnover averaged about 4. Might have been a few who rode like I did all the way from Kings Hwy., not many though. It did cement in my mind the acceptance of the route as one of the city's trunk lines. Which, I imagine, is or should be one of the base level subway services that follow a longer route than average, runs the entire route 24/7 and is considered to be a "mainline service". Similar to riding from Jamaica Queens to Coney Island Brooklyn.
The passengers waiting at local stations can't. Have you ever stood on the platform at 81st Street on a Sunday morning as four expresses, two moderately crowded A's and two D's each carrying fewer passengers than were standing on that platform, rattled by, to be eventually greeted by a crush loaded C train?
Don't even get me started on the CPW local stations. I complained earlier about waiting for the R, and rarely having a good R experience. But I can say the same about waiting for trains at 81st Street, and some of the other stations on CPW. The wait almost always seems eternal. Sunday mornings was mentioned, but I have had that problem on Sunday afternoons, Sunday evenings and all day Saturdays also. I don't know about weekdays, because I have never really ridden the 8th Ave line north of 50th too often on weekdays (I have always avoided that line and usually use the West Side line when I can), but on weekends they REALLY need more local service on CPW.
One day I wanted to travel from 86th/CPW to 34th Penn. I waited at the 86th st station for 30 minutes. during that time, 6 expresses passed, 4 Ds, and 2 As All almost empty, at least 30 people were waiting on the 86th st platform, and the express trains seemed to average 3 people per car. Many people were already on the platform when i arrived , so I would say the average waiting time on the local was 20 minutes.
so...(i will assume that 86th st had the average # of people)
Minutes gained 3(minutes saved over local)X3(people per car)X8(cars per train)X6(trains)=432
Minutes Lost 30(people per station)X20(average time waited)X9(stations)=5400(since it was a summer weekend, and there were many more people there, 81st st is counted twice)
Net Loss- 4966 Minutes
ALL NUMBERS ARE ESTIMATES
Of course, you shouldn't have had to wait more than 10 minutes. Waiting 30 minutes was the result of a management fault and not a schedule fault.
But the point is still well taken.
Is it management who decides when it's appropriate to have an express make local stops? I thought it was up to the T/D. Management may, of course, provide undue disincentives against sending expresses on the local.
I have a management idea that might help. Based on passenger counts, NYCT should come up with a minimum acceptable service level, hour by hour, at each station. Any obvious scheduling disparities should be fixed -- for instance, if it's determined that 81st Street needs 8 tph SB at 2:00 on Sunday afternoon, then either C service is increased or a second route is sent on the local track. Once that's done, enforce the minimum. How? Install a punchbox at each station. When a train (of any route designation, whether it normally stops there or not) stops and opens its doors (and only if it stops and opens its doors), the T/O punches. The time is recorded somewhere, either on paper or electronically. If the duration between punches ever exceeds the minimum acceptable headway (as determined in the first stage) plus a small slop factor (15% or so), the T/D is required to write up a report. There would be some easily justified excuses: BIE somewhere on the local track, switch problems, police action, etc. There would also be some excuses that aren't terribly convincing: I didn't feel like switching one of the six expresses to the local track, or I sent that train express so it wouldn't be so late at the end of the line (even though the stations at the end of the line can afford greater headways than the ones being bypassed).
Does that sound reasonable? It seems like all the incentives are on making the trip from terminal to terminal on time and not on serving the stations along the way. I live in a neighborhood that supposedly has political influence but its local stations (the IRT ones, at least) have only had reliable service at a barely acceptable level for five months.
(Is it management who decides when it's appropriate to have an express make local stops?)
I guess any given problem where there are no trains for 30 minutes can jut be an isolated incident like a sick passenger.
But if it happens repeatedly, it's a management failure. You may have some good suggestions for changes in procedures.
Of course, you shouldn't have had to wait more than 10 minutes. Waiting 30 minutes was the result of a management fault and not a schedule fault.
But then why does it happen almost every time I use a local station on CPW? Granted, I said I don't use the line that often, but that is because anytime I do, it's the same thing...an eternal wait. R30 is not that far off with saying 30 minutes. I can vouch that I have waited almost 30 minutes for a train at 81st on more than one occasion on a Sunday afternoon, and if it's not 30, it's at least 20.
(But then why does it happen almost every time I use a local station on CPW? )
Because management isn't making the effort it should to make the trains run according to the schedule except when it absolutely can't be helped because of an emergency.
The solution for 30 minute when the scheduled headway is 10 minutes waits isn't more off-schedule trains, it's the scheduled number of trains, on schedule.
At least you weren't trying to go to 6th Avenue -- then you would have had to wait for a fifth(!) D at Columbus Circle.
Unless a D was held there for a connection. But if it was held more than three minutes, it would have been faster for everyone and more comfortable for most if it had simply been sent down the local track.
Agreed. It's overly complicated. Here's my plan again, and it has minimal impact:
B: Weekdays from BPB (rush) or 145th St to Coney Island via Concourse, CPW local, 6th Ave express, Manhattan Bridge, 4th Ave express and Sea Beach. Nights and weekends operates as shuttle to Pacific St via 4th Ave express.
D: 205th St, Bx to Brighton Beach weekdays via Concourse, CPW express, 6th Ave express, Manhattan Bridge & Brighton express. Nights and weekends via Brighton local to Coney Island. A return to pre 4/86 service patterns.
M: Same as today
N: Weekdays/weekends from Astoria to Coney Island via Astoria, Broadway express (stopping at 49th, switching from the local track south of 42nd St), Manhattan Bridge, 4th Ave. express and West End. Nightime hours the N would run local via the tunnel to Astoria (this entire route would run like the W does today).
Q: Weekdays only from 57th St to Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge and Brighton local (an expanded hours "QB").
R: Same as today (just more frequently in Brooklyn).
W: Weekdays only from Astoria to Whitehall St. via Astoria and Broadway local using 480' trains.
Notes:
- I swapped the B and N in Brooklyn to keep the 24 hour line to Manhattan on the West End. The B on the weekend has no logical northern terminal except 145th St on the weekends. Sea Beach service has already been reduced to a weekend/night shuttle. Swapping the B & N would mean a service improvement on both lines during times of heaviest patronage.
- I discounted a potential tunnel/Brighton route because of the TA's well known hostility towards one, given the switching logjam between Atlantic & Dekalb.
- I also took into account community pressure, not just what's most convenient for the TA. This setup has absolutley no non-desirable service changes to every line affected.
- Except for overnight hours, this service plan balances both sides of the Manhattan Bridge. Bot sides would have 2 trains weekdays, one train on weekends. The Broadway tracks would not be used at night.
Might as well extend what you call the B as a yellow B to 57th and 7th on the weekends. That's only an extra 20 minutes and it would make a world of difference to the Brooklyn riders. It would also increase service on Broadway, which can use it.
This is not a big expense. 6 tph in 2 directions doing an extra 20 minutes is only 4 trainsets, and only on weekends. 800 shifts a year, or about 4 extra crews, or under $500K per year.
I think the West End N can handle the expected ridership.
(I think the West End N can handle the expected ridership. )
But the point is you're not sending any Sea Beach trains to Manhattan on the weekend when the cost of doing so is trivial. Only the M and Rock Park lines don't have direct trains to Manhattan in normal times, and they have way lower ridership. Even Dyre Ave gets Manhattan trains on the weekend, and that's lower ridership than Sea Beach and a far greater expense.
I discounted a potential tunnel/Brighton route because of the TA's well known hostility towards one, given the switching logjam between Atlantic & Dekalb.
"Well known hostility"? Do you have any evidence of such hostility? I've never heard of any such hostility except from you. (I'm not arguing that there should be a Brighton-tunnel route or that there's no good reason to avoid one, but I'm not going to attribute to a hostility that doesn't exist.)
I also took into account community pressure, not just what's most convenient for the TA. This setup has absolutley no non-desirable service changes to every line affected.
Really? None at all?
It cuts weekday Broadway express service in half. More importantly, it cuts weekend Broadway local service in half -- the R will be packed. Broadway needs two local services on weekends, and it can support an additional express service. The reason to run Sea Beach trains in to Manhattan on weekends has nothing to do with Sea Beach service and has everything to do with Broadway service in Manhattan itself. (Outside of rush hours, most service levels are dictated by Manhattan traffic.)
It eliminates the direct weekend Brighton-Broadway service that has been in place since 2001. I think most here agree that Broadway is a more popular destination that 6th Avenue on weekends.
I could list some others, but those are the two major ones I see.
It also doesn't include some substantial service improvements that have been suggested, some quite inexpensive.
1. The Broadway local would have two routes (R/W) on weekdays.
2. Broadway service at todays levels are not due to the needs of Brooklyn riders to get to a Broadway BMT destination. It is as it is by necessity, with the northern bridge tracks closed.
3. I do not prescribe to the belief that the Broadway line is more desirable than the 6th Ave. line. While the BMT has better transfer options, the IND goes to a more diverse number of destinations.
4. Brighton service, save for a few unavoidable reroutes has been the exclusive haunt of the 6th Ave. D since late 1967. Weekday Brighton riders would have the option of the D and Q.
5. The Chrystie St. connector was designed to double the capacity of midtown bound bridge service. Since it was opened it has never utilized all this capacity. My plan does.
6. While my plan may cut the number of routes on Broadway, it doesn't drastically cut service. The added capacity of a full Manhattan bridge would allow a 25% rush hour increase on the B/D/N/Q/R/W routes, from the current 9 TPH to 12. Current rush hour service from Brooklyn to Broadway amounts to 27 trains via the bridge and 18 via the tunnel. My plan would reduce the number of bridge trains to 24, and the tunnel to 12. I've ridden the N/R to Manhattan from Brooklyn in the AM rush and neither train is very crowded leaving Court St.
7. Radical changes will no doubt bring the most community pressure. Keep it simple and familiar.
So, in concusion, my plan would allow 48 bridge trains (over the current 27) and 20 via the tunnel (a decrease of 5 TPH over current service):
From Brooklyn, AM rush:
N/Q: 12 TPH x 2 = 24
B/D: same as N/Q = 24
M/R: 8 + 12 TPH = 20 TPH
That's 68 TPH, over the current 52.
On the Broadway BMT, rush hours:
Local R/W: 12 TPH x 2 = 24 TPH. That's an increase of 6 TPH over current service
Express N/Q: 12 TPH x 2 =24 TPH. That's a decrease of 3 TPH. Of course, with the 24 B/D trains running over the bridge, demand for the Broadway express will decrease more than the service will.
Midday service would be similar to todays service. You would lose 6 TPH on the express, but with B/D service running concurrent with the N/Q demand will not be as high as it is today.
Weekend service would also essentially remain the same. West Enders keep their route to Manhattan 24/7, the Sea Beach has it's shuttle, the Brighton has it's one local. If additional service is deemed necessary, weekend Q service and the expansion of B service to Manhattan can be proposed.
Everything is balanced. Service is massively upgraded. About the only flaw in my plan is that it's boring.
Chris, it's a nice simple plan and IMHO it is the most likely one to be implemented. I can't say its my favorite plan (which I proposed a couple of days ago). But what I like about your plan is its simplicity, its increase in service, its lack of merges, and its lack of deviation from the pre- and post-2001 service plans. I would add that the B and Q would be well to run until 9:30 or 10:00 P.M., and I assume from your plan that from 8 PM until midnight the N would run via tunnel. I also assume that "If additional service is deemed necessary, weekend Q service and the expansion of B service to Manhattan can be proposed" would primarily refer to the summer season (Memorial Day weekend to Labor Day weekend, including July 4).
I'd run all "weekday" services to 11 PM. This means the Q and B would run into Manhattan during the evening.
Nice, I like the idea of a uniform schedule of lines. Then one doesn't have to be a subway fan to what is running when.
That's the reason I reject running the B on Broadway on weekends. It would be incredibly confusing and frankly the N (via West End) could handle the weekend ridership of both lines. Weekend ridership on the Sea Beach is very light.
I know my plan seems to neglect some lines in the name of simplicity. However, I view simplicity as an important factor in any service plan.
(#3) Broadway IS more desirable than 6th Avenue, at least on weekends. It serves more popular tourist and shopping destinations and its transfers are better, except to the 8th Avenue IND. The only additional locations 6th Avenue serves that Broadway doesn't are the Upper West Side and the central Bronx. 6th Avenue completely bypasses the Financial District while Broadway serves it directly. That is why Broadway can and should have more than just the N and the R on weekends.
Hmmm, the B on the Sea Beach and the N on the West End. I hope Fred hasn't seen your post on this.
I have----and you can certainly guess what I think of that suggestion.
The only additional locations 6th Avenue serves that Broadway doesn't are the Upper West Side and the central Bronx.
The D doesn't serve the Upper West Side -- it taunts it.
As it should ... would uptown Manhattanites REALLY wanna ride a train that brings us Bronx folks in and out of downtown? I don't think so. :)
(would uptown Manhattanites REALLY wanna ride a train that brings us Bronx folks in and out of downtown?)
They ride the 1/2/3 and 4/5/6 all the time.
Heh. But I wonder if it's different on the IND. :)
We're not picky. We'll take any train that stops for us. Doesn't matter if it has seats, doesn't matter if we have to transfer a dozen times, but it isn't doing us any good if it's bypassing our entire neighborhood.
In all sincerity it'd make a HELL of a lot more sense, instead of diverting expresses which are already far enough apart on the IND, to put in a sufficient number of locals. Back in the old days, the AA ran more often than the A and D combined even if they were four car trains. Looks like they've cut WAY back since then.
As someone who lived at 205th Street though and had to wait for 10-20 minutes to head south, the thought of my train turning into a Toonerville Trolley is disconcerting. The real solution should be more locals out of 168th. It used to be so, and with additional CC's for the rush, the expresses USED to pass a stopped local at every platform for the rush and at least two locals along CPW on weekends.
I'm with you all the way on that one. In my opinion, having the B and an 8th Ave local service both serve as the CPW Locals all times except nights, both terminating at 168, and the D (along with the A) running CPW Express all times except nights would work. That way Uptown and Bronx riders get quicker service for most of the day, while those on the upper west side have two options, 6th Ave and 8th Ave service.
Off hours, the AA DID require that you switch for the D for sixth avenue, but there were PLENTY OF THEM many years ago. At WORST, it was a 15 minute wait in the wee hours of Sunday morning, 10 minutes the rest of the time, maybe even something more like 6 or 8 minutes, I forget and didn't ride it often. But there WAS service on the local tracks and that seems to be more of the actual issue than WHICH trains stop. Concourse only contributed a rush hour local, the D ran local all other times in the usual three track peak direction kind of express service.
168th though was a BUSY place - I did some WAA's there doing cuts and adds, converting B's into AA's and back. And it was able to maintain a pretty decent TPH. Since the IND was DESIGNED to make this all work and properly service local stop customers below 145th, this is the real issue here for CPW pax ...
Clarification on the "D local" ... that was local in the BRONX, always an express on CPW ...
I'm not talking about rush hours. I'm talking about weekends and nights. On weekends, the A is fairly crowded but the D is nearly empty. Increasing C service is unjustified because its current weekend service perfectly sufficient south of 59th. Running four CPW services is unjustified. (If the money were found to increase service, it should be used on the IRT, which gets very crowded on weekends and even after midnight.)
The subway system is a system. It has to balance the needs of its many passengers. If Concourse trains run local on weekends, Concourse passengers will still have the same access to trains as they had before, but the (busier) CPW stations will finally have dependable service, especially for those passengers bound for 6th Avenue. Those Concourse passengers who can't afford the extra three minutes can transfer to the A at 125th (perhaps they could be scheduled to meet there) or can take a car service.
Agreed ... but there's already the agony of Toonerville trolley, all local in the Bronx - same for the A line. You'd be AMAZED at how many of both lines' passengers come from further north than the subway goes as it is, ESPCIALLY the A train (Riverdale, et al).
The REAL problem is the C train actually. The extended route. When the AA ran, it ran between 168th and WTC. A relatively short but tolerable route. Four car trains off hours which provided adequate equipment for nice local headways. This "C" train is what was once the rush hour only CC which substituted for the AA and made local stops in the Bronx so the D could run express. This cut and add that they did, sending the "C" to Brooklyn makes it apparently pretty useless for local service since the planning would have to adjust it for the longer Brooklyn run and long round trip time. Bring back the AA, I'll bet things would be MUCH happier.
Gack! I can't BELIEVE I'm talking about train routings. I need a beer. :)
Agreed ... but there's already the agony of Toonerville trolley, all local in the Bronx - same for the A line.
Compare agonies:
Agony 1: D train makes local stops. You lose three minutes and have to put up with doorbells. (That is, unless you're going to a local stop, in which case you avoid an otherwise necessary transfer, or you're going to 8th Avenue, in which case you transfer to the A at 125th and lose nothing.) In the meantime, you sit on a well-lighted, climate-controlled R-68.
Agony 2: D train runs express. You have to stand on a dim, cold (or hot), spooky IND platform as one, two, three expresses go by. If you're going to 6th Avenue and a D goes by, you've just lost another ten minutes right there. If there are any delays, the first C doesn't even stop for you.
Take your pick. If it's not one, it's the other.
BTW, C trains do run at 20 min headways on Sunday morning.
Perhaps the A train can make those local stops. Heh. Seriously, the REAL problem is the local. But either way, matters not to me. Up where I live, there's no train at all. No buses either. Kinda hard to well up tears if you can understand. But once upon a time, the WORST you'd wait for a local was 20 minutes in the beyond midnight zone, the rest of the time it was 6-10 minutes at worst. Folks along CPW ought to find out who they elected and apply a pair of visegrips to the appropriate appendages. Hijacking expresses isn't the solution.
Unless you restore the final field shunt step.
It's just *ONE* cut wire to put it all back. Same for 6688. :)
No thanks to current TA personnel, but I've been fortunate enough to get my mitts on some SCHEMATICS! Woohoo! The crap that they taught me in school car has been proven ...
W R O N G !
I guess the big font means something. :)
I heard about the wire, although IIRC it's a case of two wires disconnected and butt spliced together.
Don't tell me 6688 also got neutered.
Yep, you heard correctly, but on SOME propulski systems, it waws simply a single wire that was cut and spliced back. As to 6688, word is "full parallel" is no longer an option, or was about to be ... after all, railroad ain't LONG enough to let anything get up to balancing speed ... with you in the car, wanted to get 1689 to as good as it got before we ran out of track. And we did pretty well ... given ... lunatic on the handles. :)
Hey, I was happy with the speed 1689 got up to. I thought Dougie was trying his best to imitate Lucky Luciano on his turn at the handles.:)
I've heard some 6688 stories: about how it took off down the straightaway like a bullet once, how they almost ran it off the end of the line before it stopped, etc.
Heh. More like GROUCHO at the handles. :)
Yeah, I've heard 6688 can sorta get away from ya, also heard that she's been spayed/neutered to prevent that from happening again. SMEE's had stones they did they did ...
Especially my beloved Thundering Herd on the A.
Yeah, but imagine all that power on a smaller, lighter car. Aha. :)
I still wonder how the BMT multis would have fared on the CPW express dash. They would have blown the doors off the rest of the fleet.
Hopefully there's somebody who visits here who's run them. If they've done fantrips out of 59th Street, chances are good that they've been operated up to 145th and back south to get there. :)
Still ... timers ...
The last multis left the scene in 1961 and none were salvaged, so chances are anybody who did run them is either deceased or long since retired.
Whoops ... keep confusing them and "D types" ... was never much on BMT equipment since they didn't run to the Bronx. :)
Yup, and if the T/O applied the brakes going through 103rd St the train might possibly stop before going thru 125th St.
But to bring back an AA-type service would force the A to go back to being local in Brooklyn again or for the E to be extended there which would mess up its route. That would make for one long run from Far Rockaway, through Brooklyn, into Manhattan.
Good point. Sounds like they need some more C's then. If the service is that qwappy on CPW, then it must be equally qwappy in Brooklyn, thus it sure does look like it's time to put some step plates on the remaining rebirdskys and send them dashing off on the IND. :)
The B does, well not all the time.
Not on weekends, except in early 2001. (What a pleasure that was.) You were discussing weekend service.
Right - and I do agree there should be better local service on CPW on weekends, whether that means to run the C more frequently or to have a second, 6th Avenue service. CPW could definitely use another local service on weekends, but two CPW expresses on weekends is excessive.
(#3) Broadway IS more desirable than 6th Avenue, at least on weekends. It serves more popular tourist and shopping destinations and its transfers are better, except to the 8th Avenue IND. The only additional locations 6th Avenue serves that Broadway doesn't are the Upper West Side and the central Bronx. 6th Avenue completely bypasses the Financial District while Broadway serves it directly. That is why Broadway can and should have more than just the N and the R on weekends.
I disagree. Try getting to the heart of Greenwich Village on the BMT Broadway from the bridge. The BMT's only advantage is that it has better IRT transfers in Manhattan. The BMT doesn't go to Rockerfeller Center, Washington Square, or Columbus Circle. I compared Boadway versus 6th Ave bridge service, so the Financial district is not an issue.
As for weekend service, there are currently 3 routes into Manhattan (W, R, Q). My plan also has 3 (D, R, N). I'm open to the idea of running the N via the tunnel & local if demand warrants it. I kept it on the bridge so as to keep weekend service on it balanced.
Both routes have their advantages and disadvantages. Neither one is better than the other. I have a feeling this love for the BMT Broadway line has more to do with nostalgia than reality.
"As for weekend service, there are currently 3 routes into Manhattan (W, R, Q). My plan also has 3 (D, R, N)."
Historically, since 1967, there have been 4 from Dekalb: one each from Bay Ridge, West End, Sea Beach, and Brighton. There have only been 3 since July 2001, and that only because of construction. The only way to run 4 right now would be to put all 4 on the BMT, and that would of course be a waste.
For every 17 passengers on the West End + Sea Beach + 4th Av., you have 13 on the Brighton, as per statistics posted on subtalk some time ago by subtalker David. Nearly a 1:1 ratio. To have 3 services from 4th Av. and only 1 from the Brighton, at any time, is grossly unfair. Three services, fine, 2 from 4th Av., one from Brighton. Four services, then two from each.
Why is Fred complaining about his Slum-Beach line? That portion of the N line has the lowest ridership on all of Brooklyn, save for the fledging Franklin Ave Shuttle and the G line. Meanwhile, there is standing room only on a typical Saturday morning on the Q line. (I say typical because when it rained very heavy last weekend, the train I was on had standees.)
We need a 7 day a week express line on the Brighton. 4th Ave, QB and Fulton St lines all have 7 day a week express serivce (outside of Manhattan.), and only the QB and Fulton st lines justify that beacuse of long express runs.
I agree with ya! I wish the Brighton would get some weekend express service, I'd think the weekend Brighton Express would be pretty popular during the summertime. Unfortunately, from what a poster told me (David?) the MTA did a report looking into this and said there wasn't enough ridership to justify having a Brighton Express.
Maybe they could start with some specials. There seem to be little periods of time when there are enough people getting off at Newkirk and Kings Hwy to warrant a few expresses northbound in the morning and southbound in the evening. Maybe that would draw more riders and make it popular.
Perhaps they could do the samr type of thing with a weekend and weekday evening M extended up 6th or 8th Av
Specials would be nice, the MTA used to have them when the D went to Brighton, before the bridge flip. From what I saw after a Yankee game, they would have a D wait at 161 Street, collect as much passengers as it could and then run express in both Manhattan and Brooklyn on the Brighton Line all the way to Coney Island. It didn't matter if it was late at night or the middle of the weekend. That D would be a special Brighton Express. One more thing I remembered about these specials were that they tended to be R68A's, not the usual R-68's that the D would run.
Those were the layed up B's they brough out for the special service. They still had baseball specials, but they of course only went to 34th. The times I saw specials like that, (like the 1991 Billy Graham Central Park rally) they cut them back to W4th.
Yeah you're right, that would explain why these D specials were R-68A's and not your typical R-68's.
The Brighton to Yankee Stadium? Hmmmmmm, that had to be a piece of work. Boy, did things really change when I left town in '54. Back then the Brighton didn't go to Yankee Stadium because it was BMT train and second there weren't too many Yankee fans in that part of Brooklyn except for some Italians who loved the Yanks because of all the Dagos on it, and a traitorous Jewish fan like my buddy Bob. In fact, D belonged to the IND line, the slag heap of the New York Subway System. The Brighton then was the #1 Train and it took us to Dodger games, not Yankee ones.
Hey, even the Sea Beach fan admitting that the Brighton was the #1 train. I know that's gotta be hard for you. For what it's worth, I kinda like the Sea Beach line, because it's a speedy line with very few timers.
The D specials I was talking about tended to be pretty popular with those wanting to head to Brighton Beach or Coney Island after the Yankee game. From what I saw, the ride would have a good amount of riders on it up to about Brighton Beach.
I wish I was old enough to remember the Brooklyn Dodgers, but they left town some 20 years before I was even born. I wonder how Brooklyn would be like if the Dodgers were still in town. As for calling Italians "dagos" you're on your own on that one...
Well, I'm sure the Dodgers would be playing somewhere besides Ebbets Field. There was no parking to speak of and the ballpark was outmoded and in a bad area.
It could have worked if they built the new Ebbets Field at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush, in place of the Atlantic Center Mall. Of course you would have needed garages for parking, but just about every subway line in Brooklyn (save for the J,Z and L) passes within 5 blocks of this spot. The LIRR also stops right at Atlantic. From a transit standpoint, the stadium would have been well served. Oh well, what could have been...
There is a new book coming out very soon called "Hardball in Brooklyn." It shows that Walter O'Malley was not the real villian in the case but Robert Moses. It should make interesting reading because even though O'Malley does not come off as badly as Moses, the picture of him is one of a money grubbing, devious and double dealing son-of-a-bitch. Only Moses is a bigger one. I plan on buying the book as soon as it hits the newstands.
Sorry Q for getting your hopes that high but I didn't say the Brighton was the number one train, I said it was the #1 train. That was the logo it carried on its front car before it became the D. To me the Sea Beach, the former #4, will always be number one to me. I guess you aren't aware that the BMT cars used to carry numbers. Notice my handle? It doesn't say N Sea Beach Fred, it says #4 Sea Beach Fred, a great handle for the greatest train.
Oh well. Yeah, I forgot that the Brighton's old route was #1. The Sea Beach Line was #4 back in the day. The Sea Beach ain't a bad line, but no line can hang with the Brighton!!!
Les, I knew Fred wouldn't let you get away with that one....BTW, are those D Brighton Express specials the usual fare after Yankee games, and does that go for both night games and weekend day games?
Harry, I should have known better. Fat chance that the Sea Beach man was gonna let me slide on that one. From the several Yankee games I went to, the "Yankee Special" D seemed to be the usual fare. Every time I got on these special R-68A D trains, they would run express in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. It did not matter if the game ended at 4 in the afternoon on a weekend or 12 at night on a weekday, that D ran express in both boroughs. People looking for a local usually did not have to wait that long. There were usually a normal D train not far behind the special. The "Yankee Special" D was a beautiful run, especially if you were heading to Coney Island on a hot weekend after the game. Of course with the bridge flip a year and a half ago, the D no longer runs to Brighton. I wish the MTA brings this service back when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens.
Thanks for the info, Les. I'm printing it out and saving it in my collection of interesting subtalk posts.
Hey Harry, no problem and thanks for the compliment.
I simply don't see the need for both the West End AND Sea Beach to run into Manhattan on weekends. With the 63rd. St. connection fully operational there's no logical northern terminal for the B outside 145th St.
Why do you need a terminal other than 145 for the B?
Better yet, don't run the B on weekends. Run it weekdays only as now, and keep the 24/7 W service.
no, CPW needs more service, Broadway doesn't
Union Square? Times Square? NYU? Carnegie Hall? All big weekend destinations. None served by the IND.
The R alone on the local simply will not do, and there should also be an express. Three services, two to Queens and one to 57/7.
There are currently only three services because neither Brooklyn nor Broadway has sufficient demand for four services on weekends. But Broadway plus 6th Avenue has demand for at least four -- three on Broadway and one or two on 6th (plus the F, which doesn't go through DeKalb).
I'll say it again: most Broadway BMT passengers are riding within Manhattan. Especially on weekends.
I'll say it again: most Broadway BMT passengers are riding within Manhattan. Especially on weekends
The the N can run via the local when it crosses the bridge, as it did in 1987/88.
If 3 Bway services is warranted, then we can run the Q on weekends.
As a matter of fact, I'm adding the two above changes to my plan officially. They should solve the problems others have raised with it.
That certainly alleviates my greatest concern. Thanks.
Yes, that is good. The Q should run on weekends, whether express or local.
Yes that is true. Even when the south side of the bridge was closed and we had only the N and the R on Broadway, N and R trains were crowded on weekends. 6th Avenue was definitely less crowded, at least whenever I rode it on weekends. And that was with the B and D going past 34th.
How about the W running full time from Astoria to the West End, The B weekdays only, and the N all times (exc. nights) exp to 57th. That way you could have the two Broadway locals, and the N exp all the time without switching the B and D.
Eric, that is one hell of an idea. Count me in. Now tell the TA about it and then duck. It makes too much sense for them to even comprehend it, let alone adopt it.
I like that proposal a lot. It's exactly what I would like to see happen.
(About the only flaw in my plan is that it's boring. )
Let me add some suggestions.
1. The rush hour service increase is huge. Maybe some increase is justified, but who is going to pay for that much of an increase?
2. In the opposite direction, you are penny pinching incredibly to terminate the Sea Beach at Pacific istead of 57th of weekends. This is not service as usual. The Sea Beach has historically had weekend service to Manhattan. Why are you treating its riders worse than the considerably fewer riders on the Dyre Ave. spur? They don't get a shuttle on weekends.
3. Are the BMT local stations in Manhattan served by one line or 2 on the weekends? Hard to tell. One is not enough, especially from Prince through 28th.
. The rush hour service increase is huge. Maybe some increase is justified, but who is going to pay for that much of an increase?
Service could be run at 10 TPH per line if the 12 is excessive, except on the R.
2. In the opposite direction, you are penny pinching incredibly to terminate the Sea Beach at Pacific istead of 57th of weekends. This is not service as usual. The Sea Beach has historically had weekend service to Manhattan. Why are you treating its riders worse than the considerably fewer riders on the Dyre Ave. spur? They don't get a shuttle on weekends.
The #5 is needed in Manhattan to augment the #4. Sea Beach service is currently a shuttle. It's not that big a deal. If you want to run the Sea Beach (B line under my plan), where would it go? 145th St? That would be an expensive option. Running it on Broadway would be confusing.
3. Are the BMT local stations in Manhattan served by one line or 2 on the weekends? Hard to tell. One is not enough, especially from Prince through 28th.
The R, running at 8 TPH, would be adequate for weekend service. Remember, with service on 6th Ave running over the bridge, demand for Broadway BMT service will decrease. If necessary, the N could run local after crossing the bridge on weekends.
"If you want to run the Sea Beach (B line under my plan), where would it go? 145th St? That would be an expensive option. Running it on Broadway would be confusing."
A yellow B to 57th would be nowhere near as irritating to Sea Beach customers as an orange B that only goes to Pacific.
"The #5 is needed in Manhattan to augment the #4."
NYCT could save money by running the 5 as a Dyre Ave shuttle on the weekends and augmenting the 4 with some trains that run from the center platform at 149th to Bowling Green. They don't because it would be viewed as pointless and miserly.
"The R, running at 8 TPH, would be adequate for weekend service. Remember, with service on 6th Ave running over the bridge, demand for Broadway BMT service will decrease. If necessary, the N could run local after crossing the bridge on weekends."
The lack of a north side of the MB makes very little difference to traffic loads at Prince, 8th, 23rd, or 28th. If Broadway has only 2 weekend services, they WILL both be local. In 1980 maybe they could get away with only 1 local service, but residential development at those stations, and also below Canal, has been major since then.
The lack of a north side of the MB makes very little difference to traffic loads at Prince, 8th, 23rd, or 28th. If Broadway has only 2 weekend services, they WILL both be local. In 1980 maybe they could get away with only 1 local service, but residential development at those stations, and also below Canal, has been major since then.
You make a good point here. I'd augment my plan by having the N remain on the bridge, but run completely local from Prince to 57th.
Wait a minute. I take back my last post. Local means local. Lower Manhattan is a big tourist destination. Whatever runs local north of Canal runs local south of Canal.
I don't know if lower Manhattan Broadway service needs 2 locals on weeknds. Prior to 1991 it never did. I know your primary concern is for people travelling within Manhattan, but I'm trying to balance everyone's needs.
There are lots of tourist attractions in lower Manhattan, unforunately including one that didn't exist in 1991.
Subway ridership is up since 1991, especially off-peak.
(And I'm not sure why you mention 1991. The last three months of 1990 had only R service in lower Manhattan on weekends, but the last three months of 1990 had only R service at all local stations, and on weekdays, too. Before 9/30/90, the N and R ran local on weekdays and weekends.)
My primary concern, like yours, is systemwide. I just bring up Manhattan travel because people here seem to forget that it exists -- and that it exists in large quantities, especially off-peak. The W and R currently run local on weekends, and they're more crowded in lower Manhattan than the N is on the Sea Beach line (even though they run twice as frequently). Even if every single Sea Beach passenger wants a bridge train (and surely a few of them don't), this suggests that more people would be inconvenienced by sending weekend Sea Beach service over the bridge than not.
Remember, a passenger on a local traveling a long distance can choose to transfer to an express or to wait out the extra stops. A passenger waiting at a local station has no choice -- and if that passenger is traveling a short distance, the wait can easily comprise the majority of the travel time. A local serves everyone; an express doesn't.
If the Sea Beach is not crowded in lower Manhattan, then fine, let the W and R do the work and send the N over the bridge as a convenience to riders who want to get to outer Brooklyn more quickly. The Sea Beach over the bridge would make it more attractive for riders since it would be faster service. You still seem bent on keeping my train in your Montague rathole. Send your train down there, whatever the hell it is.
I predict NYCT will go back to the "previous permanent" service plan. In other words, service more or less as it was when the MB was last fully open, though reflecting a few established changes such as the N/R swap, the B/C swap, and the 63rd St connection (which has deprived the B of a weekend destination). That way they don't have to hold public hearings and get beaten up in the media.
No service reductions, but no improvements either except where mandated by heavier loads. That means:
- D Brighton Line-Concourse 24/7.
- R 95th to Continental except late nights.
- Q Brighton Line-57th weekdays via bridge.
- N Sea Beach-Astoria via bridge rush hours and maybe weekdays, otherwise tunnel to supplement the R.
- (orange) B West End to 145/Concourse weekdays
- (yellow) B West End to 57th weekends via bridge.
Not worth saving $500K a year by making either the B or N a shuttle on weekends if the price is lots of pissed off politicians and terrible newspaper publicity.
- Supplementary service as needed Astoria-Whitehall (probably rush hours only)
- M extended to 9th Ave (or Bay Parkway if load requires) rush hours only
AIM: The Sea Beach is still in the tunnel for a period or two. That is unacceptable. We have to get my train out of that rathole for good. Come on, get back to the drawing board and put some other train in there. It is their turn anyway.
"The Sea Beach is still in the tunnel for a period or two. That is unacceptable."
I know it is to you. I'm just predicting my best guess of what NYCT will do.
Since the MB started to fall to pieces in the 1980s, the Whitehall St, Rector St, Cortlandt St., and City Hall stations have seen more usage in the off hours because of an increased residential population: in Staten Island, Battery Park City, and the conversion of many lower Manhattan manufacturing buildings to residential.
My guess is that because of that usage, the Montague tunnel will have 2 services midday and weekend. I could be wrong; maybe 1 train will provide acceptable service. We'll see.
You do bring up a very good point in your second paragraph. Yes, there has been a rise in residential population in the Whitehall, Rector, and Cortlandt areas, and also in the rise of the Staten Island population. However, we could send another train to those stations along with the R and get my train out of that bottleneck of lower Manhattan. The Sea Beach was never meant to go there and they can always send another train through. Wa Wa Wa, again I say, I want my train back on the bridge where it belongs and out of that rotten, filthy Montague rat trap. I get so tired of singing that old refrain. Will anybody in the TA finally hear my pleas?
As I've said before, if I had any say in the matter I'd send the Brighton Local into the tunnel so the Sea Beach can see the bridge full time. A lot of Brighton people work in Lower Manhattan anyway, and BEING a Brighton rider, I don't like having two lines both going to the same place, that place being where I usually don't want to go.
Well New Flyer, we are on the same wave length on that one. It would still leave the Brighton Express to go on the bridge and run its normal course. The problem is with the TA. I hope they hear what we are proposing. They might have an epiphany.
Well Fred, you can always hold a novena.:)
for late night and weekend service, I think the choices for the sea beach are:
1. Stay in brooklyn
2. Run Local, via tunnel, to manhattan
As long as the Sea Beach runs on the Manny B during the day I can live with the tunnel late at night------sort of. Fact is, though, if they made it a shuttle late at night and kept in just in Brooklyn I would have no argument with that either. Just put it back on the bridge during the morning, noon, and rush hours. Besides, when I come to New York I ride only during the daylight hours. I couldn't give a rat's ass what happens late at night. Most others couldn't either since there are very few late night riders.
(Just put it back on the bridge during the morning, noon, and rush hours.)
Fred --- that's what I proposed. When you have two services on the Brighton, the N (or W or something) would run over the bridge. When there was only one service on the Brighton -- late night and weekend -- the Sea Beach (or the Brighton) would run in the tunnel, so there would be two services -- and one train every five minutes -- along the entire Broaday line, including Lower Manhattan.
The Montingue isn't such a rathole off peak, when the trains move faster. In fact, the tunnel itself isn't the rathole. It's the 20 minutes of twists and turns in both Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhatatn. It's a slow hell if the destination is Midtown, not Downtown.
The reason I call it a rathole Larry is because it is just that. I have seen numerous creatures when looking out the railfan window while riding the Sea Beach in that God forsaken pit. It might have its advantages to some but not to me because it is an agonizing ride during the day and the place just gives me the willies. However, I like your plan and think the TA should give it serious consideration, which if I know them they won't.
I can still hear you hollering, "THERE'S ANOTHER ONE!!!!!":)
(yellow) B - should be "W", as should the supplementary service from Astoria to Whitehall.
wayne
(Balanced loading on the bridge 24/7.)
Everybody please repeat 100 times:
There is no engineering need for balanced loading on the Manhattan Bridge.
THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO BALANCING THE LOAD "ON AVERAGE" unless you can do it for every minute of the day. And the latter is a scheduling nightmare and will never happen.
Unless you somehow guarantee that every inbound train on the north side has a matching concurrent inbound train on the south side, and ditto for outbound, you will have numerous cases where the loading on the bridge is unbalanced for one or five minutes.
If the bridge can't stand that unbalanced loading, the engineers screwed up in their redesign and the Dekalb-Rutgers connection is going to get a lot more real.
Very good point,
From what I've heard from engineers, the MB was DESIGNED to tilt in one direction or another when a train approaches. Having balanced service isn't that important.
(Very good point, From what I've heard from engineers, the MB was DESIGNED to tilt in one direction or another when a train approaches.
Having balanced service isn't that important. )
This is a debate among engineers, and I'm out of my league. But reports, including the MTA's East River Crossing Study, have been written that have indicated that 60 years of unbalanced loading was one of the factors behind cracking on the bridge. Given that, from a $$$ perpective I wouldn't want to repeat it.
My experience is that engineers are no better than economists. Put 15 in a room, and you get 15 answers.
(But reports, including the MTA's East River Crossing Study, have been written that have indicated that 60 years of unbalanced loading was one of the factors behind cracking on the bridge.)
Absolutely, 60 years of unbalanced loading was a major factor behind the cracking of the bridge.
BUT YOU CAN'T PREVENT UNBALANCED LOADING.
It does no good to balance the bridge on average over a day; you'd have to balance it for every single second, which is logistically impossible.
Either the "fixed" bridge WILL allow unbalanced loading, or we won't be using the bridge for very long.
It's one thing to have an inbalance each time a train crosses. But it's quite another to have it unbalanced for days (such as weekends) or the years of the last two decades, with one side seeing all the service and the other seeing none. This is what needs to be avoided.
I would guess whatever damage occurred from the imbalance was already set in place pre-Chrystie from the limited service the south side of the bridge got compaired to the tracks on the north side that went up Broadway. But the MTA only had themseleves to blame for what came after that, when they moved the Broadway line over to the south side and then proceeded to kill full-time Brighton service there, while sending the Brighton and West End lines up Sixth Ave. That IND-centric thinking in the mid-1960s (possibly coming from some execs who began working for the city 30 years earlier and who inherited some of Hylan's mindset) kept the bridge from being as balanced as it should have been, since the planners stupidly made the QJ the Brighton local instead of maintaining the Q to run with the D train.
When the bridge goes back into full service, hopefully they'll be smart enough this time to balance the load with two services on each side during regular service hours.
(When the bridge goes back into full service, hopefully they'll be smart enough this time to balance the load with two services on each side during regular service hours.)
After what we've been through, I'd say that balanced loading on the bridge is a reasonable objective. It also means balanced service on 6th Avenue and Broadway. I agree with two services on each side during weekdays -- Brighton Local and Sea Beach on the H-tracks, West End and Brighton Express on the A/B tracks.
As I said, after what we've been through, I'd like to maintain even loading -- with one service on each side -- on weekends too. Two services would use the tunnel, so that you'd have two trains -- and service every five or six minutes -- on Broadway from end to end. As has been said, the BMT Broadway Line is the best placed for off-peak destinations like shopping and recreation.
If it would make Sea Beach Fred happy, I will point out that the Brighton local could be the one re-routed through the tunnel. Based on ridership, however, I'm not sure that makes sense.
Of course, what I really wanted was for the Rutgers-DeKalb connection to be built. With the Second Avenue Subway routed through Grand Street, it would have been possible to have an A-1 network with all stations served without using the bridge at all, except during rush hours. Perhaps the reduction in wear and tear -- 75 percent fewer trains over the bridge per year -- would have removed the guilotine from above Brooklyn's neck.
I think it makes sense to send the Brighton Local into the tunnel. The D and Q need to vary in their Manhattan destinations just as much as the 2 and 5 do.
Why the local and not the express?
Sending the local through the tunnel means that local passengers are condemned to a slow ride both on the Brighton and into Manhattan. The express will end up more crowded than it is now by the masses on the local transferring to the express at each possible point.
If the express is sent through the tunnel, loads will be better distributed.
Still, I think the best arrangement is to have the local on one side of the bridge and the express on the other, with possibly an additional express service (the M?) running via tunnel to Nassau. Weekend service would be via bridge and Broadway express, and late night service would be via tunnel and Broadway local.
(Still, I think the best arrangement is to have the local on one side of the bridge and the express on the other, with possibly an additional express service (the M?) running via tunnel to Nassau.)
Nassau St only deserves one service from all the Dekalb lines. If that service runs on the Brighton, people can't get to it from the 4th Ave express lines without changing to a 4th Ave local first. If it runs on 4th Ave, everyone can get to it with a single cross-platform trasnfer.
Makes sense. (Well, 4th Avenue express riders could get off at Pacific and walk across the station complex -- but I can see why they wouldn't want to do that.) Okay, scratch that idea.
Dave: What the hell is wrong with walking across the station complex to catch another train. Physical fitness can start right there because for some of those workaholics it would probably be the only exercise they would get all day.
If it was a walk, maybe. But it's more than a walk. It's a climb, dip, and right now, a walk through a construction site with IRT tracks literally suspended above you such that you can see the bottom of the IRT trains from the walkway! When there is an automatic roller coaster there that takes you from Pacific to the Q line Atlantic tracks, then. . .
"It's a climb, dip, and right now, a walk through a construction site with IRT tracks literally suspended above you such that you can see the bottom of the IRT trains from the walkway!"
Better bring a paddle or a life preserver, sometimes you may be swimming knee deep in water at the IRT area.
When there don't seem to be any strong reasons to run the M on the Brighton to begin with, and running it on 4th Avenue has the advantage of offering cross-platform transfers to all other South Brooklyn BMT lines at either Pacific or DeKalb (as well as the advantage of providing a second service at 4th Avenue local stations, one of which is a transfer point from the IND), why not run it on 4th Avenue?
(It's one thing to have an inbalance each time a train crosses. But it's quite another to have it unbalanced for days (such as weekends) or the years of the last two decades, with one side seeing all the service and the other seeing none. This is what needs to be avoided.)
NO!!!
The damage, if any, is done in an instant.
Roughly balancing the loads on both ides of the bridge makes sense from a SERVICE point of view. But it isn't going to extend the life of the bridge one minute.
If the designers did a good job, the MB will outlive all of us. If they didn't (or couldn't because of the inherent original design of the bridge), NYCT is going to have to think up another way to get S Brooklyn residents to midtown.
"NYCT is going to have to think up another way to get S Brooklyn residents to midtown."
Replace it with tubes.
Oh, don't worry about it Larry. I am not mad at you, just a little pissed off because you insist that the Sea Beach remain in the Montague rat trap and THAT IS TOTALLY BOGUS AND UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!. Can you dig it? You must get the N out of that hole, no two ways about it.
The "W" should become a local from Astoria or Whitehall Street... 6/9 weekdays.
N Bwy
What's "6/9?"
Ok, I was waiting for the F at 1:30pm today at 18 Av going to school and as the train's coming I see that a R32 so I'm like alright a R32 F; when it arrives it says C and I'm like what the... Then it's a C train on the CULVER! What was this doing here??? 8 cars, C train rollsigns and the C/R was unfamiliar with these stops since she did not announce the stops. So I didn't pass this up so I ride it to Jay and they say that this C will be running via F up to West 4 St so I had to transfer at Jay instead of having a 1 seat ride to High St; where i was getting off. F's were running one behind the other toward Av X and ONE train was running on the express tracks in revenue service so it looked like a BIG screw up occured and then F's couldn't use the middle tracks after Jay to save time combined with the G on the s/b express that made it worse.
R32 3821 (C) [On the Culver]
R38 4076 (A)
Does the Culver line have C/R boards at the 8-car position (i.e., four carlengths back from the 8-car marker rather than the usual five carlengths back from the 10-car marker)? When the C ran up 6th Avenue due to a GO a while back, the T/O had to buzz the C/R to open up. Did you notice any buzzing?
I guess there were problems on Fulton a few hours earlier, so a C train got diverted to the Culver at Jay.
Too bad it wasn't an R-38 set!
"Too bad it wasn't an R-38 set!"
Why do you say that? Aren't the R32 and 38 almost the same, or have I really missed something?
No. They have very different front ends and interiors (post-GOH, and with the exception of the ten R-32GE's), and the exterior ribbing only goes halfway up on the R-38.
But my point is that R-38's never run on the F -- they only run on the A and C. They haven't run on the F in ages. I'd kill for an R-38 photo on the Culver line. R-32's by now are common on the F.
Why do you say that? Aren't the R32 and 38 almost the same, or have I really missed something?
They are nowhere near the same! I rmember them when they were new, before the GOH made a cyclops monster out of them.
Elias
The R32s (except 3594-3595, 3880-3881, 3892-3893, 3934-3937) have almost nothing in common interiorwise with the R38. The R38s have an old antenna similar to the Redbird antenna (the only B division cars to have them). The R38s and the R32 cars mentioned above have lighted advertisement spaces, unlike all of the other R32s. In addition, GE rebuilt the R38s and the R32s listed in the first line, while MK rebuilt all the other R32s in 2 stages. Lastly (but most importantly), all of the R38s except 414x have tape holding down the roof plates. The only thing in common is that the R32 Phase 1 cars and R32 GE cars can run with R38 cars.
The R32s (except 3594-3595, 3880-3881, 3892-3893, 3934-3937) have almost nothing in common interiorwise with the R38. The R38s have an old antenna similar to the Redbird antenna (the only B division cars to have them). The R38s and the R32 cars mentioned above have lighted advertisement spaces, unlike all of the other R32s. In addition, GE rebuilt the R38s and the R32s listed in the first line, while MK rebuilt all the other R32s in 2 stages.Also, all of the R38s except 414x have tape holding down the roof plates. The only thing in common is that the R32 Phase 1 cars and R32 GE cars can run with R38 cars. Lastly, the R32s are 100% stainless steel, but the R38s have carbon steel roofs.
I think there is a 8 car marker at Culver stations but I really didn't notice buzzing.
4 car lengths back from the 8 car Stop marker is the SAME place as 5 car lengths back from the 10 car Stop marker (based on the 8 car Stop being one car length before the 10 car Stop).
But the 8 and 10 are often in the same place.
When I rode the C up 6th Avenue, the T/O didn't realize he had to buzz at first and the C/R refused to open up.
I don't know how the markers are placed on the Culver.
Then it's a C train on the CULVER! What was this doing here???
According to this sign - it BELONGS there ;-)
Well, I am amazed and surprised! Seriously!
>>the C/R was unfamiliar with these stops since she did not announce the stops.<<
Doesn't the C/R have to be qualified on that territory to work it, or is that only the T/O?
Of course the conductor is qualified on all lines of division B. But if she is a rookie and not a railfan like the people on this board, she probably doesn't have the sequence of stops on every line memorized as of yet. This is no excuse however, all she has to do is get a pocket map to announce the stops! Then again, maybe she was quiet because she was pissed and pouting over being rerouted, especially if that was her "get away" trip!
>>Then again, maybe she was quiet because she was pissed and pouting over being rerouted, especially if that was her "get away" trip!<<
Yes, that's real professional. Keeping riders "in the dark" because she was angry about working a little later than usual, or being "not familiar" with the sequence of stops. If I tried that at NJ Transit, and it was reported by a "spotter" or a boss who happened to be riding, I'd be written up so fast my head would be spinning!
BTW: If a C/R looks out their window, can't they see the name of the station posted somewhere? Even if they don't know what's next, they could at least get the current station correct!
Hey Marty, that only tells me there's incompetency in just about every endeavor of employment. I saw my share of it in education. Why should I be surprised reading your post? It seems to be par-for-the-course these days.
Hey Marty, that only tells me there's incompetency in just about every endeavor of employment. I saw my share of it in education. Why should I be surprised reading your post? It seems to be par-for-the-course these days.
This tops the time when the F train (b/c of a GO) ran to Euclid, and the electronic destination signs on some trains read: Listen for Announcements.
If some electronic signs do not agree with each other, it a train line defect. Once either crew member sets the code, all 16 side signs are supposed to show the same reading.
I misread "trains" for "cars". Sorry. I guess the crew members didn't check with the dispatcher at 179 St. on the proper code for the signs to show Euclid Ave. as the south terminal. Those unusual codes are not posted in the cabs.
Ok, well I have changed the lines around and created the new subway lines according to what needs to be changed and here are the changes.
8 Line is now the H Line: Gun Hill Road (Webster Avenue) to Utica Avenue (Atlantic Avenue) 2nd Avenue Local
10 Line is now the T Line: Dyre Avenue (Dyre Avenue Express) to Flatbush Avenue-Kings County Plaza (Utica Avenue) v.i.a. Second Avenue Express
11 Line is now the Q Line: 125 Street (2nd Avnnue) to Brighton Beach (Brighton Lin) v.i.a. Northern Second Avenue Local, Broadway and Brighton Express
12 Line is now the U Line: Co-Op City to J.F.K. Airport v.i.a. Bronx Thru, Second Avenue Express
The 13 Line is now the X Line: Fordham Road-Fordham Plaza Bronx to Tottenville Staten Island: v.i.a. Third Avenue, Second Avenue Express
New Line The Y Line: 71st Avenue, or Utopia Parkway Queens (Through Jewel Avenue) to Staten Island Mall, Staten Island v.i.a. Queens Boulevard Express , Southern Second Avenue Local
Ok, bring the criticism now!
Expensive.
I'd not connect *my* new subway to any of the existing lines, because my new lines are all very high speed, and computer controled, and cannot be merged with existing low-speed routes with T/O's hanging on to the handle.
Elias
I went up to 161st Street on the B/D to get a look at the funny station sign. While I was walking around aimlessly, I noticed what I feel is the most unusual public toilet in the entire city. I didn't notice that there was no way to flush the thing and was quite embarrassed.
Unusual Public Toilets at 161st Street Station
You're not serious are you?
Heypaul is always serious.
You're not serious are you?
Of course he's serious.
I think the TA is smart building the bathrooms like that.
For one, they save on security becuase they don't have hire security for a secluded rest room, and it sure makes it much safer to be able to go right on the platform instead of having to worry about going into a filthy rest room.
Second, I guess they figured all the Yankee fams were using the pillars at the ends of the platforms any way, so if you can't beat them join them, and came up with this ingenious new design for the platform restroom.
So very lucky passengers. When my bowels bark and urge, I may have to run two city blocks and a flight of stairs. Never took a WHIZZ in 239ths yard, especially on the third rail. NEVER take a bathroom break on morning break or lunchtime. Always proclaim upon the throne
during work hours (T/Os RTO R142s exempt because of 'pee tube.' Blue and yellow make green') Windshields never get clean. CI peter
But those are seats. I saw them at 8:00 this morning....
When it comes to a CRAPPY subject like this, believe me, Paul DOES NOT kid around...
Thank you Doug. That is the kind of support I was giving you the other day when you said you took the L train to Far Rockaway.
Please Doug, you make Paul FLUSH with embarrassment.
LOL ... I think that's one of your best, thanks for playing < g >
It could be worse. Paul could have gone to Flushing.
LOL! I must say they do quite resemble a men's room.
I guess those must be the benches on track level that David G. mentioned in the other thread.
I'd better look before I sit.
I'd better look before I sit.
Yeah, especially after this thread.....I can hear it now...."What do you mean officer, I read on nycsubway.org that these were the latest model subway toilets."
The new thread title says it all :)
Wow ... add a third rail, and we'll have the longest thread in the house before it vanishes. :)
Oh, behave, sir! :)
No politicians were harmed in my previous post, Unca Dougie ... I can only behave so much. :)
(and I didn't even MENTION that Twilight Zone station either. Heh)
(and I didn't even MENTION that Twilight Zone station either. Heh)
Well, that's where the MTA got the idea for the toilets at 161st. The aliens had a set up with those type of toilets, in the not to be mentioned Twilight Zone station for years already. (maybe that's why they look like benches to some people).
Apparently the Krell were triangular in body shape ... and since they were invisible, no stall doors needed either. :)
Why are all of you ragging on my precios Flushing line? Stop it? Heh, it's the best anywayz.
You've got the wrong guy - follow the thread back to discover the actual wiseguy. But ya gotta admit, it's an amusing line name for twisted minds. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. :)
But we're actually cracking on the D train - it stops there.
whoa, how do u use those? u pee in the white part or the black part?? are there ANYTHING covering your privates or is everybody exposed to them??
Well, they don't call them public bathrooms for nothing! :)
Those are not toilets (albeit they may look it), those are unusual seats, but that's just part of the weirdness put into that station since it was overhauled. Someone on an earlier thread posted a picture of a split 161st Street sign. That is on the Concourse mezzanine. The station itself is a work of art!
You apparently don't know Heypaul like most of us do !
Heypaul, thanks for your thread & photo it brightened my morning.
Thanks Thurston, I'm glad you liked it.
Congratulations on the birth of your granddaughter.
I hope you have a great trip upstate, but who's going to keep an eye on BMTman??
Selkirk Kevin is coming down & will position himself at the Malbone portal < g >
Hahahaha. And I'm bringing some trainmen from the yahds to back me up. :)
Those facilities are strictly for the Krell that live up on 205th Street. Confused me at first too until one of my neighbors at the time showed me how to use them. You need to put the pincers to your head, lean over and focus on the glass dome. Water will appear if all the needles on the wall don't go off scale first. :)
NO NO NO, those are Bidets!
You lift the little lid on the front, push the recessed handle and clean the whistle!
It was originally part of an effort to better accomodate european and specifically french tourists, but they only got them installed on a trial basis at that odd location. NYC MTA advertised their new 'Bidet Service' in Air France in flight literature, Paris Metro stations, and french travel agencies. There was a brief flood of French tourists (some of which are still here, they just can't find their way home), however since tourist maps usually don't show Manhattan above 96th st (or the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn OR Staten Island for that matter), the Frenchies never ventured up to 161st station to find the bidets that the MTA installed so graciously for them.
Really it is a sad story.
If you would like to get the Frenchies back (and be able to enjoy some of your tourist attractions without the crowds), please send donations of between 50 and 100 dollars cash to the William Dobner French return fund c/o Drexel University, 32nd and Chestnut Ave. Philadephia, PA.
Now if you want to hear about the Japanese and the steam baths at 76th st station, that will be a WHOLE 'NOTHER thread!
Somehow, I don't think those "toilets" will be used heavily anytime soon. :)
Ya know, the MTA would save plenty of money if they overhauled stations to be modernized, not to add unnecessary stuff like this. And they want a fare hike... :D
I don't think you can use them as toilets, there is a cop stationed 24/7 at the south end of the Manhattan bound platform, and for the sake of this thread and all jokes aside, they ARE seats. There are 2 set of seats on each platform. Still, where are the stall doors?
>>>>...there is a cop stationed 24/7 at the south end of the Manhattan bound platform...<<<
I haven't seen any cop at that location in over 2 weeks. I do however see a cop on the N/B at 155/8th Ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a cop last weekend at 1st Avenue on the L, even though the station was closed. I hope he brought a book.
These are toilets?
Daily News article titled "Light at the end of tunnel".
No mention of commuter access or if it could influence plans for a Gowanus Expressway tunnel. But there is the tantalizing potential for a connection to Staten Island.
This rail tunnel has been talked about for about as long as the 2nd Ave subway has. The Port Authority was formed, in part, with an eye to building this connection from the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR into the NEC.
Ah! for a few Acelas running from central Nassau, Jamaica, and 59th/4th.
As for the Gowanus, it's gonna fall down before anything happens, and we'll end up with a wide ground-level boulevard on 3rd Av, one-way south, with 4th Av being one-way north, and some sort of underpass/overpass arrangement for getting into the BB tunnel and onto the BQE. For a project this expensive, it takes a lot of Congressional clout: this is the only way the Boston Big Dig was approved.
The sad thing is that the BMT probably would have built a Staten Island-Brooklyn rail link in the 1920's if Hylan hadn't blocked it. And it would not have cost $2 billion then.
Even sadder is how, later on, the IND was also supposed to have a Staten Island connection via a proposed Fort Hamilton Pkwy line to the Smith Street/Culver line.
But that project was never started. I thought the BMT did some preliminary digging for the SI line and stopped when they ran into political snags.
At 59/4 in Brooklyn the provision for the line is visable.
I wonder...could the 4th Ave. subway accommodate the potential number of people coming from Staten Island today as it was intended to in Pre-War NYC?
I wonder...could the 4th Ave. subway accommodate the potential number of people coming from Staten Island today as it was intended to in Pre-War NYC?
It probably would have been able to handle it even now. Just think of the M trains capacity. It would spell the end for the M train on 4th Ave, and the SI route would use the M Train's capacity.
Or just extend the M full time to Staten Island all times.
I'd like to think the line that would have went to Staten Island would run express from 59/4 to 57/7.
As long as those bastards can get a mention in the paper for getting funds for a $2 million study, there is no way we will ever get $2 billion improvements. We'd be better off without the studies, and saving the $2 million.
The M train in brooklyn in it's current iteration is a big waist of time, money and capasity.
(The M train in brooklyn in it's current iteration is a big waist of time, money and capasity.)
Are you talking about the mid-day and evening extension to 9th Ave, or the rush hour extension to Bay Parkway?
If the former, I have no questions for you. If the latter, do you believe that West End capacity is served adequately by the W? And do you believe Brooklyn riders should not have a train to Nassau St.? And do you have any facts supporting these beliefs?
I'm really asking becasue I'd like to know. I don't have a good feel for how well the M is used in rush hour in S Brooklyn. But others have claimed the M is well used (though not packed) in rush hour.
The issue is that most brooklyn riders have no use for a train on the Nassau line.
From sept 1989 until june 1993 I went to brooklyn Tech with Dekalb being my school stop. The M always appeared 3/4 empty no matter the time of day I observed it at dekalb. It is especially weird to see a train pull into dekalb during the morning rush empty.
From July 1996 - May 1998 I worked at 20 broad street and occasionally took the M between Broad street and dekalb and/or Broad and Bay Parkway. The only reason I tool the M ussually was because I ran into my boss at kings highway or We were leaving at the same time. Even thought the M was litterally right in front of my office building it was the slowers way to get home but, you always got a seat.
The train even during rush hour is fairly empty leaving broad street and heading into brooklyn. Broad street station itself was quite empty with only a handfull of people waiting at 5 PM and long waits compared to other ways to get to brooklyn(ie 2/3 1 block away, 4/5 1 block away, N/R 2 blocks away)
From Sept 1998 - april 2000 I worked on maiden lane in lower manhattan. I had a choice of ways to get to work (I live on the brighton(or can take any line that stops at AVE U) and my girlfreind at the time lived along the west end)
Being the railfan that I am I would alternate which route I took
M trains pulling into and out of dekalb during the morning rush were empty by rush hour standards with many aboard getting off the M at broad street (new york stock excahnge)
Not quite sure why the state senator fought to keep the service and got state funds to do so. West end riders would be better served by more frequent service that goes to broadway or 6th ave line. It is where most of there riders are going anyway. For those going to lower manhattan in most cases the broadway line leaves them within a few blocks of thier location or they can change at fulton for nassua service.
"Not quite sure why the state senator fought to keep the service and got state funds to do so. West end riders would be better served by more frequent service that goes to broadway or 6th ave line. It is where most of there riders are going anyway. For those going to lower manhattan in most cases the broadway line leaves them within a few blocks of thier location or they can change at fulton for nassua service."
Don't you think it's good to have some levels of redundancy in the system? So what if the M was less used than other trains in rush hours. I used to live near the Kings Hwy station in the mid to late 80's and from what I could see the M was reasonably patronized. And you almost always got a seat at Broad Street going downtown into Brooklyn. What a relief that was! I just don't think it's good to "rationalize" ALL the aspects of the transit system. To the extent that it's possible, let's leave some slack like that.
IF the M train into brooklyn was eliminated it would mean more service for west end riders to broadway and or 6th ave. This would provide better overall service for these riders
I'm saying I think it's wise planning to have services that are not fully used. Nassau Street line does go to the main downtown areas like Wall Street and Chambers Street. While not the most traveled line, it is a valuable element of the downtown setting. And you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket....
I understand your point, but the downtown area already has redundent service between brooklyn in general and dekalb / atlantic in particular
From Dekalb via tunnel N/R
Rector street is the equivilant of Broad
Courtland is the equivilant of fulton street
city hall is the equivilant of Chambers
From atlantic via tunnel 1(don't know the name of the IRT tunnels)
4/5 lex service
Wall street is the equivilant of broad
Both trains stop at fulton
City hall is the equivilant of chamber street
From atlantic via tunnel 2 2/3 7th ave service
Wall street is the equivilant of broad street
Both stop at fulton
Park place is the equivilant of Chambers
The M going to brooklyn really serves no purposue anymore. The wall street area is not as busy as it once was even before 9/11. Many wall street firms have moved most of there operations to midtown, jersey city or metrotech in brooklyn.
The space in the monague street tunnel would be better used increasing service on the broadway local. Trains move so slow through the monague tunnel.
One reason no one rides the M is because it doesn't go through north of Lower Manhattan. But the other reason is because it is infrequent.
I can walk one way out of my building to take the M, and the other way to take the N and R. In the morning, I take whichever comes first.
In the evening, I take the N and R. Why? Because I might have a 10 minute wait for the M, followed by 10 minutes walking up the stairs at 9th Street and waiting for the F. That's a 20 minute commute, not counting the time I'm actually getting anywhere. Yes, if the N comes first I end up changing trains a third time, but at least (between the M and the R) I might end up waiting only two or three additional minutes.
Run the M and Z thru the tunnel and you'd have service on the Nassau Loop every five minutes. More people would use the train. The underuse of the Nassau Street line is one reason I was in favor of the Nassau Street option on Second Avenue. The Nassau Street line is actually the best Downtown, both in its location and its stations. Because of what it connects to, it is underused.
If time isn't your only care, take the M anyway for a guaranteed seat.
(If time isn't your only care, take the M anyway for a guaranteed seat.)
The value of a seat is over-rated for those of us living closer in. Thus, there is rough fairness that in-bound at least, those with the longest ride get the seats.
I'm never on a train for more than ten minutes. In fact, I may only be on a train and moving for 12 minutes of my 36 minute commute. The rest is walking, waiting, changing, waiting, walking.
Now if I lived out on the edge of the city, or in the burbs, and would have one train the whole way, a seat could be valuable. I could read, sleep, or something. Most subway riders really can't. If you get a seat, you'll soon be out of it.
What's the value of a seat when you are standing on the platform waiting for a train.
Even if you live down the line. The observent rider knows that seats open up at major transfer points. If you know your subway line it you can guess which riders are going to get off where
Example: If I dont't get a seat at 34th street on the Q. I look for prepy, trendy, NYU students who have seats. I stand in front of them and 9 out of 10 times they get off at 14th street union square.
If there are none, I look for asians that may get off at canal(this one is not a slam dunk like the first one)
Have you considered the 4/5 to Fulton (incredibly frequent service), then the A/C to Jay St (also very frequent)? Then the F.
The transfer from the uptown 4/5 to the A/C is much less work than from the M/R to the F. Two minutes at most. And of course Jay St is cross-platform.
Expected time waiting for trains:
1.5 minutes for a 4/5, 2 minutes for an A/C, 3 minutes for the F.
the 23 use the clark tunnels
the 45 use the joralemon tunnels
Thanks for the info
(The space in the monague street tunnel would be better used increasing service on the broadway local.)
There are already 15 trains per hour from Dekalb to lower Broadway. How many more do you propose?
Maybe the M to Brooklyn is useless in rush hour, maybe not. Some say it gets plenty of use. But more trains to Broadway either cost more money or reduce the bridge trains that most passengers want to take.
This is the same issue the Strappies apply to the V line on Queens Blvd. They think the V is displacing the G which was used by Queensites going to Brooklyn, though in reality, they all wanted to go to Manhattan. :)
I also went to Brooklyn Tech from '89-93. You're right about the M being underused on the West End. I distinctly remember when the M ran on the Brighton, it was a more crowded than it is now. The MTA may be better off running both the B and W on the West End during rush while running the M along with the D and Q on the Brighton.
There are other factors that hurt the M now vs. the M in the 1980's
Besides it being on the west end. Wall street employment in lower manhattan around broad street have been in a steady decline since the mid 1980's. Automation, companies moved to MidTown, jersey city, Metrotech are just few of the many reasons.
If you were going downtown it was just easier to take the M and not have to worry about changing trains
Besides the broad street stop , there are not many offices along the nassua line anymore. This limits it's usefulness to riders.
I sometimes take the M to go to lower east side bars. I could just as easily switch for it in manhattan. I would welcome the M back to the brighton as long as it does not hurt the frequrncy of the D and Q. My only concern is that once many-B reopens, the headways for the D and Q on the 6th ave and broadway are going to go up. I rather more D and Q service then M service
Hey, are you going to the 10 year tech reuion. I got a letter about it a few weeks back
Good points. As for the Tech re-union, I don't think I can make it. I'm taking courses upstate, but I sure miss New York. When is the re-union anyway? I did not get a letter about it, as far as I know.
It is the weekend of april 11th
There's an informal reception on Friday the 11th at the Brooklyn Marriott's bar from 7-9pm
Saturday april 12th will be the school tour and events
There is an email adress for info BTHS1993reunion@hotmail.com
By the way what was your major at tech?
It looks like I won't be able to make the reunion. Thanks for the info. I was one of those TLA majors, where all we supposedly did was play cards all day. What was your major?
Not quite sure why the state senator fought to keep the service and got state funds to do so. West end riders would be better served by more frequent service that goes to broadway or 6th ave line.
Whether the west end would be better served with more 6th Ave or Broadway service is moot. I don't think the outcry and fight came from West End Riders, but rather Chinatown users. So it's not the West End users that wanted the M it's Nassau riders that wanted the M to go south of Broad.
Oh Yes now I remember. It has to do with alternative routes due to the closing of grand street.
But once grand street reopens, the M will not be the prefered route.
I agree. With both sides of the bridge open, and both Grand and Canal seeing frequent service, M ridership will only decline further.
The plan to connect Brooklyn with Staten Island seems like a much more feasible plan to me, since the tunnel would be a lot shorter.
Mark
Informed Staten Islanders and Brooklynites will eventually push for commuter access to such a connection. Hopefully starting with Borough President Molinaro whose hope to revitalize the North Shore line could be bolstered by this tunnel.
First off, the tunnel is supposed to make provisions for a rail tunnel.
The Gowanus tunnel would be best under 3rd avenue. The lines which go under the Bulkhead are ludicris. I think there should be a six lane tunnel (3+3) as well as a 4 lane viaduct (2+2 for HOV/ emergency use only) over 3rd avenue. An idea I have calls for this:
INBOUND Tunnel-
From SI, continue underground where the rise is currently. Have the 2 centermost lanes rise to form 2 HOV lanes. The only problem I can see is how to keep the tunnel under/over the N/R lines.
From the Belt, move all traffic to the 63rd-65th sts exit. That leads you on a small parkway of 2 lanes. Widen the parkway so that a median can be put in (currently, the ramp to the GOW is 2 lanes). The tunnel should begin at 2nd avenue and curve North to meet at 3rd. The 4 lanes from I-278 and 2 from the Belt will form the underground tunnel.The Belt will provide the inner lanes, 278 forms the outer. Exits will be from the center lane for 39th st (exit lane). A right lane exit will be provided for the Inbound exit to the Prospect, which will rise to ground level between 4th and 5th avenues, and meet a current onramp there. The downside will be having to relocate the current onramp, or simply move it a few feet south. The inbound entrance from the Prospect will occupy the current lane to Hamilton avenue as well as an additional lane. An exit will be provided, as well (without decelleration lane, though. an S curve will be fine). The inbound Prospect lanes will not merge, but rather "split" the inbound right and inbound center lanes. Before the interchange, the "right" lane will be marked as an exit only for the BQE. The right entrance lane from the Prospect will serve as a second "Exit only" lane. The current formation, from left to right, is this now:
(1) Direct lane from the Belt to the BBT
(1) Direct lane from 278 to the BBT
(1) Direct lane from the Prospect to he BBT
(1) Direct lane from the Prospect to the BQE
(1) Direct lane from 278 to the BQE
The BQE will turnoff to the current entrance before the service road (presently, this road serves an entrance from Hamilton and the BBT. In the future, these entrances will be preserved, but wil form a direct merge with the proposed road)
Viaduct:
From SI- 2 Centermost lanes rise (1+1) and follow a restored viaduct along its present route.
From Belt- 2 Lanes currently leading to the Gowanus will be preserved (however, no link from 3rd avenue will be provided to the HOV lane).
The 4 lanes will proceed along 3rd avenue, without exit until the prospect Expy. The turnoff to the Prospect will follow it's present route.
From Prospect: 2 center lanes will rise and diverge. The lane formation will copy its current route. At the BQE exit, the outer lane will turnoff, and follow the current route, taking the center lane, and having the outer serve as a median. The lanes entering the BQE will take the outer lanes. The lanes proceeding to the BBT will have a 4- lane toll area, 2 cash, 2 ezpass. There could be a surcharge (or even a discount) for using HOV.
My plan's advantage will be that there will be less traffic on both roadways. Utilizing a 24/7 HOV lane will encourage Carpooling year-round, no matter the destination. Taking 20,000 cars and buses from the tunnel means that there will be less work needed in the tunnel,and that road work will be easier, because you can reroute if necessary. Putting 20.000 cars per day on the existing(but renovated) structure will not put too much strain on the road. The viaduct will keep its current alignment, and will not need to be torn down, and no section will need to be replaced. Keeping the viaduct as a 6-lane Elevated structure will mean that There is now a shoulder in the road.
The plan may be expensive, but it will be interesting
Impressive plan to say the least.
But any proposal for a new viaduct would face a lot of opposition from communities that would love to see viaducts, no matter how discreet or enviromentally friendly, go the way of the Dodo.
No new viaduct. Just a fixing up of the old one (new paint job, new road surface, etc.). Enough to easily accomidate 20,000 vehicles.
Unfortunately it would take a PR rainmaker to convince the communities along the Gowanus to keep the original viaduct when tunnel construction begins.
But a high speed route used exclusively by HOV and Emergency vehicles would be very nice. A separate tunnel/tube perhaps? I know, I know...the price tag would balloon like a puffer fish.
Which is why it seems better to keep the Viaduct for that purpose. Plus, Why would you rob everyone of a wonderful view of Manhattan. Add to the fact that the Gowanus Bridge is an amazing structure. I would like to keep it. We need to have another Robert Moses, solely for that purpose of redesigning the Gowanus
If the rail tunnel were to be built, including SI subway connection and the Varrazanno would move to two eay toll.
The new gowanus tunnel would need less capasity then the current structure. I used to commute by car to lower manhatttan during rush hour.(was not my choice, worked for a city agency that assigned me a car). The gowanus expressway was never that bad in terms of traffic. It moved. The problem ussually was the one lane bridge entrances to manhattan. Minus out 3/4 of the express buses and half the trucks and it would be down right empty.
In order for the subway line connection to make sense, NYCT would need to reorganize it's bus operations on SI to include more subway commuter routes(like the B2/B100) in brooklyn plus make the new subway line a quick ride into manhattan. They would also need to do the politically difficult task of illiminated or serverly cutting back express bus service. As it is i belive there should be a two teir structure for express bus fares. A fare for where express buses are the only way to get to the city and a fare when other options such as the west end line are available.
"The lanes proceeding to the BBT will have a 4- lane toll area, 2 cash, 2 ezpass. There could be a surcharge (or even a discount) for using HOV."
By the time the tunnel gets built there will be no toll plaza's period.
EZ-PASS or take a picture of your licence plate if you do not. What really should be done is they should embed a chip in the licence plate that helps identify the car. This would also be useful in tracking stolen cars. Police cars could be automatically if the car was reprted stolen
(What really should be done is they should embed a chip in the licence plate that helps identify the car. This would also be useful in tracking stolen cars. Police cars could be automatically if the car was reprted stolen)
An interesting idea. They could trace vehicles a lot more closely if they wanted to. Of course, that would create a problem for those cheating on their spouses. The "right" to anonymus sleazy behaviour comes up frequently in discussions of the public good vs. the right to "privacy."
It's a great project even without commuter rail.
The possibility of passenger rail service on that line might help the project a little bit in terms of broader public support. If a two track freight tunnel via Staten Island is built, it could connect up to the Amtrak mainline at both Elizabeth and in Astoria via the NY&A and the B&O bridge over the Arthur Kill. That would theoretically allow four or so trains a day on the Boston-Washington run to bypass Penn Station and make stops in Brooklyn Queens and Staten Island, and allow people in those boroughs to avoid the extra trip into Manhattan, while at the same time (and depending on the time of day the Amtrak trains ran) freeing up some trackage in Penn Station for NJT commuter rail.
A direct connection from Brooklyn to New Jersey would make an Amtrak-Penn Station bypass more problematic, since it would presumably come ashore on the New Jersey side in the Bayonne area, and then would face the hurdle of having to get around Newark Bay (unless they dig a second tunnel). No big deal for freight cars, but it would be for rail passengers on a set time schedule, since it would probably add an addition 20-40 minutes to their trip.
Hey, where exactly is the provision from 4th Ave to connect to Staten Island? Is it a feed off the local tracks or is it something that develops between the local and the express like the West End leads? If the former, who from Staten Island would take a train into Brooklyn, run 4th Ave local, probably end up going through the tunnel rather than the bridge when they have the SIRT, the ferry, and tons of express buses to choose from (although double fare)?
Ferget about a tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island. Maybe Brooklyn to New Jersey. (Which if connected to the LIRR Bay Ridge line has multiple possibilities for freight and passenger service. Not the least would be, finally, after all these years, a direct rail connection to the national rail network from Brooklyn that doesn't require a detour through Queens. This to me is very important for the future of Brooklyn. Plus, how cool would it be to be able to board a train at, say, Fort Hamilton Parkway to go to Philadelphia or Chicago?).
So Staten Island won't be on that loop. Nope, seems to me the most efficient use of the existing infrastructure to facilitate Staten Island to Manhattan Island passenger service is to rehabilitate the North Shore Branch, SIRT, new connection to the Bayonne Bridge and linkage with the HBLRT. I can't think of any other routing scheme. Beyond a new tunnel or bridge. And which solution would be the most economically feasible?
Does anyone have pics of the old IND-style tiling at this station? What color was it? And, what year was the present red-white tile job done?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Marine green upstairs, maroon downstairs
ON the Manhattan bound platform (upper level) towards the 10 car marker, there is a signal room ( I think). If you take a peek inside the room (preferably from the first car on the train) you can see the IND tiling still inside. If I remember right, the tilework may have been brick tiling (similar to some of the tilework along the Concourse line) and the colors of the name tablet were maroon with green border.
It is a tower at the front end of the Manhattan Bound platform. you can barely see the interlocking board there. Original tile color was maroon before the station was renovated to its current design in around 1984-85
There WAS NONE. If it were to have any at all, it would have belonged to the Red family. In the mezzanines, directional signs were white letters on a maroon background, but they're gone too.
wayne
OK I have to correct myself, that referred only to the trackside wall having no tiles.
On the platforms, upper level was dark green soldier course, tablets were dark green border (same tile) with maroon center. Lower level, two tone maroon, two tiles high, tablets reverse the color pattern. This is a similar color as found at Utica, Ralph & Rockaway on the "A" line in Brooklyn, I believe it was a little bit lighter.
wayne
Hey folks,
I hear that traveling from suburban houses to suburban offices is very tough to do on transit, due to large office grounds, etc., and low population densities. Perhaps the best way to do this might be to take cars along for the ride on the train (there is an Auto Train from Virginia to Florida, but it takes hours to load and put together, and you can't get to the autos from your train seat). In order to do this, we would have to widen rail gauges quite a bit, so cars can be housed and accessible from the inside of the train (which would have, in my daydream, shopping facilities, perhaps casinos in Nevada, office space, restaurants, maybe even a hotel or two). Instead of parking in a station, one parks on a train, and one basically pays the fare to ship himself or herself and his or her car. The bigger the car, the higher the fare (for obvious reasons). Perhaps even a stretch limo might be accommodated, but it would take up several parking spaces, and fares to hold that sort of thing would go through the roof. (Of course, one might also park at the station itself, but it might be tough hitching a ride to your favorite suburban office after the train ride.) The more passengers per car, the lower the fare per passenger. Folks boarding by themselves pay the lowest fares. The gauge would be widened in order to support autos on both sides of the train, which means that we would have to test the effects of a wider-than-standard gauge on rolling stock and other equipment. Also, supporting ridership in a setup where autos take up so much space per passenger can be a problem. Maybe stacking cars on top of one another like slumbercoach cabins?
I'd call my concept the Trilobite, after the extinct animal that helped inspire this vehicle. Like a trilobite, the thing would have three lobes and plenty of segments.
R. Rabinowitz.
Yo, Whats good with this LIRR Turbine MU Train???? Can anybody give me any info? Stats?
LIRR Turbine MU
LIRR Turbine MU (2)
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
Looks as if it was an experimental alternative to the diesel+cars, based on the M-1's design. Most likely, it failed. That is why we have the DM's
Looks as if it was an experimental alternative to the diesel+cars, based on the M-1's design. Most likely, it failed. That is why we have the DM's
The turbine LIRR trains were experimental trains. It was a test from quite a while ago, long before the current DM's were even a thought, like in the 70's I believe. The test failed due to maintenance and fuel costs, so the turbo train idea for the LIRR's unelectrified branches was abandoned. I believe they ran for a short time on the Oyster Bay branch.
Trbines eat fuel like it's going out of style, and they are not cost-effective at slow speeds. A gasw turbine is a jet engine mated to reduction gears.
Ships equipped with them sometimes use a "CODOG" (Combination Diesel or Gas Turbine" arrangement or "CODAG" (the a is for "and").
At slow speeds, or at start-up, the diesel engine drives the ship (to a maximum of 15-20 knots or so). When the captain wants to accelerate to flank speed and sustain it, the crew fires up the gas turbines. When decelerating below a threshold speed, the turbines shut down and disel power is relied upon.
On an electric-turbine train making few stops, electricity could be used to start the train moving, then at MAS the train fires up the gas turbine as it leaves electric territory. That might address part of the fuel problem. Unfortunately, it's not very practical in the LIRR setting, and you still have to deal with the issue of kerosene or Bunker C oil fouling the turbine blades.
Krauss-Maffei's gas turbine locos from the 1950's had the same problems.
How does Amtrak's turbotrain compare?
BTW: Those photos deserve to be in the nycsubway.org library and the LIRR history website.
"Unfortunately, it's not very practical in the LIRR setting, and you still have to deal with the issue of kerosene or Bunker C oil fouling the turbine blades.
Krauss-Maffei's gas turbine locos from the 1950's had the same problems. "
Ron. If you are speaking of the Union Pacific's GT, they were all General Electric products.
No, he's talking about the German's experimentation, which wasa failure too. The GE turbos were only 'successful' because Bunker C was an otherwise useless by product of oil refining. They couldn't go everywhere, and couldn't stop in tunnels or under bridges, the startup and shut down procedures were touchy, etc etc. They worked, but that's about it. Once oil stopped being dirt cheap in the early 70's, they were tossed.
Most everyone tried the turbine powered train concept, and every one has been a flop. naturally, the US DOT has 'solved' the turbine's inherrint unsuitability for rail use by throwing money at the problem, thus taxpayers got to pay 50% of the cost of Bombardier's TEL ($20 million?), meaning that we 1/2 own the world's most expensive unused locomotive. Since there are zero routes to run it on at high speeds where it's efficient, it's a pointless excercise.
The US DOT also partly funded the NY state rebuilds, which are nowhere to be seen, and have been '3 months' from service for a few years now.
You can get US DOT funding for a turbine in a train project amazingly easily, since they're desperate to make it work for some stupid reason or another. Since HSR requires a lot of trackwork and signal work, the cost of catenary isn't a big factor at all. The recent bids for Florida's system resulted in the Bombardier TEL based system and the Global Rail Consortium's all electric system being within a few million in inferstructure costs. Since cost savings was the big excuse for the TEL development in the first place, this seems to be a pointless excercise, as it does nothing to reduce HSR system costs short term, and the long term operating costs are unknown, but likely to be high given the nature of gas turbines..
An excellent post, sir. Thank you.
Maybe one of the reasons for liking turbine locos is that catenary is a magnet for NIMBY in areas which don't have it. Politics...
Of course, Amtrak has run Genesis-powered trains on the NEC at 110 mph, so you don't need a turbine to run a reasonably fast train. But if you want 150 mph, that's tougher to achieve without a catenary or a jet engine.
Ya GOTTA love it though, the New York Central was there even before the LIRR!
R-40 slant meets RDC !!
Pity those poor overpass bridges !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It had a wee problem with the roof cowl dripping into the coach as well. But that has to be the STRANGEST railcar I've spotted. :)
"It had a wee problem with the roof cowl dripping into the coach as well. But that has to be the STRANGEST railcar I've spotted."
I once saw a home movie at an ERA meeting years ago. The cameraman panned the camera fast because it was really booking. It had to be doing 100 MPH or better. Everyone in the audience was amazed too.
What if it was a success ? It could only run on lines without overpass bridges, which limits it's territory big time. Still, you have to admire their ingenuity.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think there would have been a limitation as well on any right of way that had flammable trees, grass, wooden power poles ... but yeah, that puppy did over 180 MPH on the day they invited photogs to go "ooo, ahhh" as it went by. I like a good fast run, but they would have had to SEDATE me to get me into that cab. And I've run (regular) RDC's ... they musta had to scrape that BLE brother off the bulkhead. Heh.
What year was that?
The New York Central's jet RDC3 #M497, set the US speed record at 183.681 mph in July of 1966, running in a publicity-stunt-cum-experimental run between Butler, IN and Stryker, OH. The September issue of Smithsonian's Invention and Technology magazine had more about the jet tests.
Thank you.
Did it operate by itsdelf, or was it hauling a string of cars?
By itself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since Anon-e already answered, could you IMAGINE the racket a consist of those things would have caused? RDC's had enough propulski for themselves, if you had THREE cars you could handle a dead unit, but basically you had diesel truck engines down below and moving a railcar WAS a job. Once they got moving though, they could MOVE ...
But it was one of the STRANGEST looking trains I've ever seen with the B-52 nacelle on the roof. :)
That would have been noisy, woudn't it?
But, properly enclosed and baffled, the jet need not be loud. Gas turbine powered ships aren't noisy, and the M-1 battle tank has a 1,500 hp turbine which is very quiet.
Yeah, but that WAS the same nacelle found on B-52's (I think it was P&W's) and I can ASSURE ya, when B-52's take off, they're anything but quiet. :)
But yeah, that musta been something to hear whizzing through the countryside.
That's a B-47 nacelle, not B-52.
In which case, J-40 somethings, which were GEs. The B-52 used J-57s which were quite large engines, they're the same thing 707s used
I believe you are correct.
Here I thought it was a direct graft off a B-36J, the timeframe seems about right, the B-36s were just finally getting chopped at that time, so there probably would have been a pretty good deal on one of those things. Either way, I think it's a moot point, cause the B-36J's 'Burners' were the exact same thing as the B-47s, just without the outrigger gear that the Bicycle Geared B-47 needed.
I presume the engineer is Wile E. Coyote?
No, it was Mr Wiggums
Beep. beep. :)
With TWO J47s on top of that RDC, Wile E. would have been sure to catch the Road Runner. I just hope it wasn't the Acme Company that did the refitting...
Could well have been ... the BIG problem with that car was that it kept melting the roof. :)
What, they didn't have DUCT TAPE in those days?...QUACK QUACK.
Nah, we KNEW we were all going to die back then, so we bombed Vietnam to get even with the Russkies. :-\
Actually the Spruance class Destroyers, along with it's cousin the Ticonderoga class Guided Missile Cruisers, and the Arleigh Burke class Guided Missile Cruisers are all COGAG. Theres not a diesel to be found aboard the ship (Cept maybe in the ships launch, but that might be gasoline), even the Ship System Generator (power for lights, heat, AC, radar and all that stuff) is a gas turbine. All of them use the 20000-25000 hp LM2500 from GE, which is derived from the 747's CF6 turbofan, which inturn was developed as the TF39 and currently equips the C-5 Galaxy, along with the KC-10 Extender.
The navy had a problem with the fuel they used initially as well. The LM2500s were slightly modified with different burner cans (the equivilant of a diesel's fuel injector) to handle standard Marine Diesel (DFM or Nato F-76). When the Sprucans entered service with the atlantic fleet the turbines were a complete disaster, blade erosion was like 10 times what is should have been, fuel filters were being overloaded, everything was jamming and the entire destroyer program was on the verge of being curtailed at just 4 ships. At one point the filter problem got so bad that the engine crews were changing the expensive filters several times a day. Finally when the first Spruances deployed to the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean they packed several weeks worth of filters into every available spot, certain that they woudl use them up about the time they reached Cordova, Spain (they were going East Coast to West Pac, don't ask me why).
When they reached the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf they found that all the problems with the turbine evaporated. Kuwait was the only Persian Gulf refiner of JP5 at the time, JP5 is what turbines eat, arguably the perfect fuel for them. The only problem was that the Sprucans weren't sipping JP5, they were still chugging DFM, from the Persian Gulf, so it couldn't just be that they were near lots of JP5. It turned out that European and Western Asian DFM differed from American DFM in one crucial respect: the European DFM, and especially the Arabian DFM, was much more pure than the garbage that American oil dealers called marine diesel. American DFM is made using both diesel as well as recycled motor oil from everyones cars and trucks, that stuff took hundreds of hours of operation off the engines and cost the taxpayers millions.
Getting back to topic:
I always wondered why the Turbo M1s didn't work, it seems to be a good pairing. Perhaps a transmission would be a good thing in thsi case, the ships use Controllable Pitch Propellors, which allow them to run at full speed, getting good efficency while also accelerating at a good rate, not by spooling the turbines up, but by changing the angle of the props to make more thrust. The same thing could work with a Turbo-hydraulic. The Turbo-hydraulic could use a massive Constantly Variable Transmission to achieve maximum power transfer at all speeds
Course though I like the idea of an electric 3rd rail accelerating the MU out of the station, to where the Turbine takes over running it to the next station, where 3rd rail agains powers it out. This would be especially good for somewhere like the Greenport Branch where the stations are so far apart that there would need to be 5 or 6 substations per passenger station. This way it's just 1 substation at the station providing all it's juice to like a mile or two of track at the most. Even better if there were some kind of storage medium for a regenerative braking system to be used, just a few Kilowatts to give the MU a push out of the station without taking power from LIPA.
Anybody want to call up Bombardier and see if we can get the LIRR/LEAR special, an M-7 with Lear 45 pieces glued on to it. Even better, save some of the M1s from Naporano and zero their frames, strip em down to nothing and give THEM the turbines! One car is the fuel carrier, the other carries the gas turbine, both have the same electrical equipment. I want to say Allison AE2100A engines for the power car, that would provide 4125 horsepower per married pair, and is the engine of the V-22, the C-130J and the Saab 2000, but I suspect it might be a bit large for the space available. Maybe something like the GE CT-7 (note, no relation to the CF-7, other than being a GE product) engine from the S-70, UH-60 and S-92, that would provide 1750hp per married pair, but that seems underpowered.
Oh well, don't know why I'm bothering, even if it is a good idea (which I kinda doubt), they'd never go for a redux of a project that they did once before. I guess it was kind of a fun thought exercise, hope you enjoyed it at all.
Thank you for your note of clarification/correction. CODOG or CODAG are not universal, and I was mistaken regarding the Navy ship types you mentioned. There are several ship types used in the world that are CODAG, however.
I like a lot of the ideas in your post. I think much of this would be very do-able.
I think there is some possibility gas turbine trains may make a come back.
I've recently read of both an experimental turbine/battery electric hybrid switcher in the US, and an experimental turbine/battery electric hybrid bus in the UK.
The key in both cases was a new generation of small gas turbines designed from scratch for static use in industry and on things like offshore oil rigs. These units are designed to be very fuel efficient when running under computer control at constant speed, hence the coupling with battery-electric propulsion in both cases.
Of course there is a long, long way between experimental rigs and real life. But it is easy to see how such a system could be very attractive, especially for the outer reaches of an otherwise electrified commuter railway.
(But it is easy to see how such a system could be very attractive, especially for the outer reaches of an otherwise electrified commuter railway.)
What's wrong with good old diesel/electrics such as MNRR uses for the outer reaches of an otherwise electrified commuter railway?
What's wrong with good old diesel/electrics such as MNRR uses for the outer reaches of an otherwise electrified commuter railway?
Gas turbines are much lighter than diesel engines. Not a problem if their greater fuel efficiency outweighs the cost of hauling them around, as it almost certainly will for non-electrified lines.
But if the power is coming from the overhead or third-rail for a significant proportion of the journey, then the diesel or turbine is just dead weight for that proportion of the journey. So a lighter, even if less efficient in use, prime mover gains advantage over a heavier one.
Also, if you are talking comparing a turbine/electric MU with diesel/electric locomotives (as in MNRR), then the turbine/electric MU has a lot more in common with the straight-electric MUs likely used on the inner reaches.
The turbine-electrics should fit in better with the service and acceleration profiles of the straight-electric MUs, giving advantages in terms of track capacity and scheduling. Also in terms of maintenance facilities and costs.
Of course as I said in my previous post, this is all very contingent on the success of what are still, I believe, very early experiments. Like as not it will all come to nothing again.
I like a lot of what you've said.
Note two things, though:
1) Locomotives today have relatively constant-speed diesel engines. RPMs rarely go above 900, though the diesel does increase revolutions when accelerating. And the disel's only job is to spin the alternator.
2) (Turbines)Also in terms of maintenance facilities and costs.
Turbines are notoriously maintenance intensive. Your idea for their employment (constant speed) would help, as some turbines do very poorly when pushed up and down all the time; using a lighter (shorter chain hydrocarbons) fuel might help encourage more complete combustion and less fouling.
I think it was either a four-car or eight-car trainset built. The cars could run off third rail (so as to access Penn Station and Flatbush) and then when out of third rail territory, start up the turbines, which drove generators which fed power to the usual traction motors.
The cars were 4001-4004 (or maybe 4008 if it was an eight-car set, I'm not sure...) They were tested on Oyster Bay trains for a short time, and between the cost of fuel going up and the high failure rate, the cars were removed and stored for the longest while and then they disappeared. Someone said they were up on the Metro-North at Harmon about 12-15 years ago....
The turbines were Garrett Airesearch, that's all I know there.
LIRR did do testing of turbines prior to these cars, in a Budd Pioneer II carbody (similar to the Philly area Silverliners). It was known as the "GT-1" and was based at Ronkonkoma for testing east of there on the mainline so as to not interfere with too much of anything else. The car had a grey window stripe and orange ends. Once the straight turbine testing was completed, it was rebuilt to "GT-2", blue window band and yellow ends. It returned to Ronkonkoma for further testing, though the second time around it had third rail capability. I don't know whether it was ever tested on third rail operation. I don't know whwtever happened to the GT-2 either, sorry.
Actually there were 2 4-car sets strung together to make an 8 car train. 4 cars were with the Garret Turbines and 4 cars were with GE turbines.
I caught it once out of Hunters Point. Don't remember to where but it was the last train (6:14 PM IIRC) since I had to change at JAM for a Port Jeff train.
There were many problems with them as there are with any experimental vehicles. They had retractible steps so that passengers could get on and off at the (then) low level platforms in the diesel territory. Several times the stairs jammed in the down position and the doors could close and the train proceed. Also sometimes the turbines cut-out in the non-electrified portions of the system and a diesel engine had to be sent out to "rescue" the train.
Often wondered why the LIRR didn't keep the train as an additional electric train for the fleet.
Wonder if the high-level platforms now in place in most diesel territory stations had been built, would the train had shown better results.
So each car had a turbine? Is an electric MU too heavy to have placed a turbine in every other car? (Gas turbines have significantly higher power-weight ratios than diesel engines - aircraft engines can reach 8:1 or higher).
Beats me. From what I've seen, at least one version had the engines up on the roof. The electric gear was chopper type, one might have had body mounted traction motors, I'm not sure.
Amazingly, the MTA was serious about these things - and was even contemplating a large order.
Concieveably, and with today's computer management, it'd be possible - you could have an MU where all the engines were running durring start/acceleration, then as the load dropped, engines could be turned off, then asd the load increased, turned back on. Remember - a gas turbine can start up in a few seconds and be ready for immediate full power operation, they require very little warm up, but a slight cool down period.
In fact, Chrysler's turbine car prototypes actually DID shut the engine durring coasting/decelleration, then restart as required.
Naturally, the US DO paid for this, they were and are still stuck on the turbine concept, even though there's really been no viable one yet, despite decades of research all over the world....
I agree with you - this concept should work.
But turbines are maintenance-intensive, even when the company making them achieves six-sigma quality.
That's the real problem with them. They're too maintenance intensive, hence expensive. Why the US DOT even persues the idea, when the real need is to reduce the weight (and therefore cost) of railcars, is beyond me...
you could have an MU where all the engines were running durring start/acceleration, then as the load dropped, engines could be turned off, then asd the load increased, turned back on. Remember - a gas turbine can start up in a few seconds and be ready for immediate full power operation, they require very little warm up, but a slight cool down period.
Actually, turbines are not very good at that -- they are good at continuous periods of stable running, since the turbines have to heat up, and cool down, there is a lot of thermal shock associated with each fire-up cycle. Another reason why flying short range is more expensive and less safe.
The reason USDOT pursued the idea is the same as always -- USDOT seems to think aviation technology is good for everything. They are also the people who supervised the design of Metroliners to look like aeroplanes. It surprises me that the USDOT HQ building doesn't have like turbines to supply their heat or something.
AEM7
Maybe it does. They just hid them (national security, you know) :0)
Turboshafts and all actually heat up rather quickly - once they're up to idle, they're warmed up enough for full power operation. Cooldown requires a period of running at idle, though. The trouble is, no matter what kind of operation, the aviation derrived engines used for the DOT's turbine experiments are simply maintenance hogs. The 'inspection' done every few hundred hours is more of a teardown, and even simple borescoping is expensive and difficult. Simple things like dirt ingestion or a turbine overheat or overspeed can send the engine to the repair shop.
IMHO, a lot of the DOT's drive behind turbines is the typical NIH that this country gets bogged down in. We couldn't build a simple copy of the Concorde, no, ours had to have swing wings. We can't buy an off the shelf HST, no, ours had to be custom designed. We can't adopt diesel cars because Europe uses them, we build our homes with forced air heat and practically nobody else does. We can't just buy a proven LRV, no we had to have Boeing design a "United States Standard Light Rail Vehicle". And so on. It's not surprising the US DOT is 100% opposed to electrification - all the recent technology is European, and all the equipment is. So, we get failed tturbine experiment after failed turbine experiment....
"IMHO, a lot of the DOT's drive behind turbines is the typical NIH that this country gets bogged down in. We couldn't build a simple copy of the Concorde, no, ours had to have swing wings."
Certainly there is some truth to that.
"We can't adopt diesel cars because Europe uses them, we build our homes with forced air heat and practically nobody else does. "
There are some disadvantages to using diesel on a widespread basis. Particulate air pollution is one of them. And forced air-heat does offer advantages over radiator heat - but I think thgat's a toss-up. I had radiator heat in my Philly house and was pleased with it.
I remember something vague about the SST swing-wing issue. That's not really what killed the SST, though. The simple fact is that the SST was not, and is not, commercially viable except to a very small and wealthy crowd. The Concorde can and does make a profit for its own service, but just barely. There isn't a larger market for it; supersonic speed is banned over inhabited area due to noise complaints.
I do wish to correct your post on one item: Swing wings work very well (look at the B-1 and the F-14) and are a welcome innovation (they actually save fuel and represent one aspect where Europe would have done well to copy us).
The Concorde's delta design is efficient at high speed, and the airplane can supercruise at Mach 2 without the afterburners. It has to accelerate using afterburners, however (this is one area where the Russian TU-144 was a failure - it could not supercruise at all). At lower speeds and when maneuvering, the delta wing is a liability. A straight wing offers much better low-speed handling and more efficient flight.
Thus, one optimal solution is the swing-wing. At low speed, the wing is set out to maximize maneuvering efficiency. At high speed it is swept back to allow a delta-like configuration.
The added weight required for the swing box assembly was an important issue in the F-111, the first aircraft to be so equipped. But by the time the F-14 and the B-1 had come along, use of titanium and new assembly techniques had greatly reduced the weight penalty.
A swing-wing SST airliner would be more fuel-efficient than the Concorde, but probably not by enough to make it commercially viable in a market where the 777 can make money carrying 300 people at subsonic speeds who pay not even $200 per ticket.
Not Invented Here syndrome represents arrogance, and we do plenty of it - but so do the Europeans. I think you're more willing to overlook theirs than ours.
I didn't overlook European NIH, and they suffer from a LOT of it. The SECAM TV system is nicknamed 'System Essentially Contrary to American Method", because frankly, that's what the french seemed to have wanted with it. PAL is a clear knockoff of NTSC (and in fact, color subcarrier phase alternation was considered for NTSC also, but discarded due to bad effects with CRT technology of the time), but SECAM makes no sense to anyone (I don't even know if the French understand it fully).
European rail equipment also developed entirely differently from American, and the europeans even ignored early sucesses/failures with electric and diesel technology in the US.
As for swing wings, no doubt they have advantages, but the Concorde seems to operate quite well in service without them. They do have a weight penalty, even with titanium and composites, etc, so that in itself makes them unsuited for passenger aircraft. In millitary applications, the extra performance edge can justify it. But even there, few military aircraft anywhere have them, and the use of it on the F-14 has the added bonus of saving space on a carrier.
Forced air heating? It's the most common system in the US, but hot water (aka hydronic) systems dominate in Europe. Water systems are a bit more efficient, and are claimed to be more comfortable. Radiant is supposed to be nothing short of phenominal (warm floors. Cats must love it :) I never lived in a home with hot air so I wouldn't know what they're like.
Diesel particulates? Low sulphur diesel - found in Europe but not here, and much higher injection pressures can reduce that to a non problem. And you still have the fact that in terms of raw thermodynamic efficiency, the diesel is vastly superior to gas. Diesels in general have come a LONG way in recent years, too. They're cleaner, quieter, and don't produce clouds of smoke.
I like your post a lot. I agree with your comments about the French.
"As for swing wings, no doubt they have advantages, but the Concorde seems to operate quite well in service without them"
Yes, it does. It's a beautiful airplane, and commercial airliners do not have the same need to maneuver that a military aircraft does. The Mirage delta turning at 4G bleeds a lot of energy in a part of the envelope that the Concorde doesn't worry about. Nonetheless, its fuel consumption is prohibitive given its load (100 passengers). The service works, but only because there are only 13 flying (7 British Airways, 6 Air France), and there are enough people willing to pay $5,000.00 one way to fly them. Interestingly, Braniff bought one but was not able to use it.
"They do have a weight penalty, even with titanium and composites, etc, so that in itself makes them unsuited for passenger aircraft."
No, not true. OK, true in 1969, not true in 2000. Reason: Efficient afterburning turbofans combined with further improvements in the swing wing. A swing-wing SST today would surpass the Concorde in fuel efficiency, even if you re-engined the Concorde itself. But, again, not enough to compete with a $200 ticket on a 777, and not enough to justify production - the market is too small.
"In millitary applications, the extra performance edge can justify it. But even there, few military aircraft anywhere have them, and the use of it on the F-14 has the added bonus of saving space on a carrier. "
Two issues there:
1) Space saving, as you point out.
2) Performance: The F-14B and D models have the same thrust to weight ratio as an F-16, and, thanks to the swing wing, can knife-fight as effectively as the F-16. In addition, the Super Tomcat can accelerate to a point of intercept much faster thanks to the rapid sweepback.
The Mirage 2000 can accelerate nicely too, and is efficient at > Mach 1. But a in a dogfight with a Tomcat, the Mirage will bleed energy in a sustained turn and lose speed and altitude. The Tomcat will gain advantage through use of the vertical or through executing a rolling scissor with little loss of energy and end up on the Mirage's tail - and the Mirage is a dead duck.
Good point about diesel. We need to clean up our fuel. Adding barium to #2 diesel helps clean up exhaust.
Personally, though, I like LNG technology where it can be used (such as on buses. It's a little much to ask a car to use it. Dangerous in a collision.)
If you need to both air condition centrally and heat, forced air is much cheaper. You need the ducts for the a/c, so why not use them for the heat?
Europe doesn't need central A/C; parts of the US do.
The higher densities in Europe make electric much more sensible for full intercity deployment there than here.
So some of the idiosyncracies actually have a basis in different needs.
But this whole thread actually seems irrelevant to me. By far the highest cost of high speed rail is the right of way. Once you've got that (probably at about $200 million per mile; more near cities or in rough terrain like CA), you might as well electrify it; it'll just be a pittance of extra money.
"If you need to both air condition centrally and heat, forced air is much cheaper. You need the ducts for the a/c, so why not use them for the heat? "
Well argued. Unfortunately, one of the most popular refrigerants for forced air A/C was phased out recently (and banned), and many reputable contractors don't like to use this method for houses not designed around forced air. In a new house, yes (though I don't know much about those systems. In our 100 year old houses, when we installed a new forced air system our contractor told us he could include A/C with it, but he recommended against it.
That doesn’t make sense. Any forced air A/C system is going to need something as a refrigerant. I thought newer systems were designed (compressor/evaporator units) to use a different, less environmentally damaging refrigerant.
Since the interface between the A/C system and the air circulation system is merely the evaporator radiators in the air-stream downstream of the circulation fan, what changes? Why does the age of the house matter, except that it’s probably going to be more work fitting the ducting into places where it wasn’t designed to go originally?
John
(Why does the age of the house matter, except that it’s probably going to be more work fitting the ducting into places where it wasn’t designed to go originally?)
I think the point is that if the house wasn't designed with central air in mind, the number of feet of ductwork to a/c a given square footage of house is likely to be greater. This will be less efficient, and this lesser efficiency will be augmented by the fact that currently permissible refrigerants are less efficient than the banned ones.
So, in an old house, it probably ends up being much cheaper to run window a/c units.
Bingo.
Hey, don't tell you're dissin' forced air heating now as well.
Radiator heat can make the room very stuffy, and is hard to control. Forced air heat can make the room very dry, and is prone to dusting up. I don't mind either. I usually have a radiator for base load and a forced air electric fan for peak heat demands.
While the (failed) TurboTrain of the '60s was a product of United Aircraft (n/k/a United Technologies), the Turboliners used in Empire Service were Americanized versions of off the shelf ANF Frangeco RTG trains from France. Turbos are definitely european technology.
Turboshafts and all actually heat up rather quickly - once they're up to idle, they're warmed up enough for full power operation.
Yes, that is the problem. The fact that they het up quickly is why they are maintenance hogs. Fireing up and spinning down on a regular basis will compound the problem. What happens when you heat soemthing up? It expands. What happens when it cools down? It contracts. What does different expansion rates in different materials mean for mechanical systems? Maintenance.
Exactly right.
Ah....now it's all coming back, now that you mentioned the GE turbines. Yep, I do remember they were evaluating two different types -- Garrett and GE.
And the rasing/lowering steps.....nothing but headaches on San Francisco Muni's Boening LRV's, they were also equipped with such steps for high platform and street operation. Muni had major problems with the steps right until the last Boeing LRV's ran a couple years ago!!!
During the summer of 1976, 4 cars made an Oyster Bay - Penn Station round trip in the shoulder rush. 4 cars tended to hang around the LIRR, and 4 others on MNRR. During Metro North's junk era just before Brewster was electrified, they were run as EMU's to ease their equipment shortage. I believe all have been cut up. Shame they couldn't simply strip the turbines out and make EMU's out of them. The MTA never owned them; US-DOT or FRA did. Either GE or Garrett, but not Budd, had a patent on the retractable steps in the quarter mark doors. They usually worked pretty well. I suppose the concept is to be reated with the SEPTA Comet-V cars.
During the summer of 1976, 4 cars made an Oyster Bay - Penn Station round trip in the shoulder rush. 4 cars tended to hang around the LIRR, and 4 others on MNRR. During Metro North's junk era just before Brewster was electrified, they were run as EMU's to ease their equipment shortage. I believe all have been cut up. Shame they couldn't simply strip the turbines out and make EMU's out of them. The MTA never owned them; US-DOT or FRA did. Either GE or Garrett, but not Budd, had a patent on the retractable steps in the quarter mark doors. They usually worked pretty well. I suppose the concept is to be repeated with the SEPTA Comet-V cars.
Actually there were 2 4-car sets strung together to make an 8 car train. 4 cars were with the Garret Turbines and 4 cars were with GE turbines.
Alan: Thanks for the info. . To what you said I can add the following ; the ones built by Budd were numbered 4001-4004. The General Electric cars were numbered 4005-4008. all eight cars were built in 1976. The forerunner of these cars was the GT-1 Turboliner which was a test vehicle for UMTA. The four Budd cars found their way over to GCT and ran in Conrail/Metro-North service for a while and ten for several years were laid up in GCT underneath the Waldorf-Astoria. They ran on staight electric while on Metro-North.
If you have the book "Budd Car, the RDC Story" by Chuck Crouse there is a brief description and photo of the GTE's on pages 141-142.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
"The turbines were Garrett Airesearch, that's all I know there."
Garrett is a very experienced maker of small jet engines for corporate aircraft, marine applications (I think at least one model of cruise missile uses one of their engines.
Their turbines are also used for peak load power generation.
Yep, I'm very well aware of Garrett's experience. I used to work for one of Garrett's divisions in Los Angeles. Their turbines were made mostly in Phoenix, AZ. They were once owned by the Signal Companies, who also owned Mack Trucks!!
Small world!
Three things...
1) The tour is booked solid with 12 people on a "waiting list" Those of you who were the first 25 all recieved emails. I will try to email all others but with 12 people waiting already, I does not look good.
2) As I said before, The date may change. Keep checking here at
Subtalk. I am aware that there are other events elsewhere that day and have recieved emails today telling me what a scumbag I am for scheduling it to "compete" Let me say that this date was GIVEN to me. I did not ask for it. I can only go along with them. This now brings me to the last thing...
... I am doing this for one reason and one reason only, For YOU, the Subtalk community. With security high, This years rodeo will be different and getting in without an employee will not happen. So I am doing this so the people here at Subtalk will get a chance to go in and see this great facility. I do not profit from this at all. Honestly, Had I known the grief I would get from people who think I am trying to screw up the branford trip, I would have never done this. I was going to ask for a different date to please these people, but since it is already BOOKED SOLID, I will not ask. However, Like I said, It MAY still change. The TA is in control. It is up to them. I hope to have the date set in stone by 3/10.
-Mark W.
"... With security high, This years rodeo will be different and getting in without an employee will not happen ..."
That was one of the last times I was there. It was fairly easy to get in then, and mingling with the staff was a treat just by itself. The BMTman & I even got to sit on the front of N1 as she did a yard trip with a couple of cars in toe. As most of you know I work for a bus company here in NYC, so when inside the folks let their hair down & it makes it a whole other experience.
^^^"telling me what a scumbag I am"^^^
ROTFFLMAO!!!
;-) Sparky
Oh darn, I didnt get an email! :-0
No, seriously, I went on it before and it was great, but I'd rather give the opportunity to someone else who has never seen the facility before.
That's how I feel about it too, so I didn't even bother to email for it. I also have been there about 3 years ago with the NRHS-LIRR Sunrise Trail group, and would love to do it again, but if there's only room for 25 people, there are plenty of people here who have probably never done it before.
Contrary to popular belief, this board does not revolve around the Branford event schedule. I, for one, appreciate the effort you have made to make this tour happen, as well as some of the others in the past. Please don't let these e-mails discourage you from doing things like this in the future. People who have a genuine interest in both events should be happy that they have these opportunities, and let them choose the one they are more interested in.
--Mark
This is why there is a delete option in e-mail. You've done some great work and had some great ideas for different tours--all done for SubTalk, and all done for free. Ignore the idiots.
Good work Mark
I went on a tour a few years back with an ERA group.
Would have loved to gone again, but better to let someone who has not gone before get an oppurtunity
It is not easy to organize and event. Can not please everyone
............dont worry nobody was in that car except a " dummy "
it was some small compact car being rammed LIVE ON CHANNEL 4 NEWZ
this was done for demonstration purposes
here on KNBC TV 4 NEWS a 11-p.m. live special !!
the inpact on the victim vehicle was shown from all possible angels
even from inside the car... was scary as hell folks .......
then they ran tapes from all the cameras there
a good demonstration even at 25 mph took aprox 200 feet to stop..
glad i was not in it !! the dummy .............oh well........
... even at 25 mph took aprox 200 feet to stop ...
Either it wasn't going 25 mph or it took a lot longer to stop than that. I participated in the filming of an Operation Lifesaver segment in North Carolina about ten years ago (I was in the locomotive) and we sure didn't stop that fast, even in emergency.
I'm glad they took the time and effort to film and broadcast that... sometimes the public needs to be reminded of what can happen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, that sounds like a situation last year here in southern California.
Diesel engine rams into full commuter train at 25 MPH. Nobody was in the diesel loco except the dummy who ran through two signals....one yellow, accelerating at 46 MPH and a red.
this was a live broadcast here in so, cal. on knbc 4 nbc
was for demonstration purposes
i was sold hook line and sinker !!
When in 1982 a van full of hyped-up, drugged-out kids decided to play chicken with a LIRR Alco at Herricks Road, (NINE of them), and they found bodies as far as 100' away from the crossing, up in trees, in people's backyards, etc...that made a believer out of me, and I had just gotten my drivers license that year.
Unfortunately the rest of Long Island failed to get the message, and the Herricks Road crossing remained one of the most dangerous in the US until the LIRR finally depressed the roadway under the tracks in the late '90s. No more stupid people tricks there...Meanwhile, down the tracks a bit at New Hyde Park Road...
When in 1982 a van full of hyped-up, drugged-out kids decided to play chicken with a LIRR Alco at Herricks Road, (NINE of them), and they found bodies as far as 100' away from the crossing, up in trees, in people's backyards, etc...that made a believer out of me, and I had just gotten my drivers license that year.
Unfortunately the rest of Long Island failed to get the message, and the Herricks Road crossing remained one of the most dangerous in the US until the LIRR finally depressed the roadway under the tracks in the late '90s. No more stupid people tricks there...Meanwhile, down the tracks a bit at New Hyde Park Road...
Construction on the Herrick Road grade crossing elimination was an agonzingly long process, something like seven or eight years.
In the 1920's it was decided to relocate and elevate the main tracks of the New York Central through Syracuse. The project was 5 miles long, cost $15 million depression era dollars and included a 4 story station with 12 platform tracks as well as nearly a score of bridges including the then longest plate girder span in the world. Groundbreaking took place in October of 1929 and the new line opened in September, 1936. With today's technology, you'd think infrastructure could be developed even faster than that.
>>>When in 1982 a van full of hyped-up, drugged-out kids decided to play chicken with a LIRR Alco at Herricks Road, (NINE of them)...<<
I remember that accident very well, absolutely horrible.
Peace,
ANDEE
After reading one of the tours on OldNYC.com, namely the Rockaway Branch one, I found how at a certain aream the LIRR had helicopters with people shooting salt pellets at trespassers. Has anyone ever experienced or witnessed this event?
question ; 2 stop folks from stopping on railroad tracks ?
I saw the helicopters all the time when I lived on LI...never got MY ass shot full of salt, though! Took PLENTY of LIRR photos too.
Conrail had that, too in the "70s...Imagine what a lovely lawsuit that would be today...PS does anybody else remember the Salt Mountains of Hunterspoint Avenue? Is that where the LIRR got their ammo?
Ok someone already posted this but today most of the #5 trains I seen where from the #2 Line. These are a few car nos. I seen on the #5 Line 6661-6700. 6631-35 and some others didn't get the rest but all in the 6500's and 6600's.
those cars probably can't even show the 238 St reference in the destination sign
Yeah, I saw some 65xx series cars coupled to 7021-7025 today on the 5. Its not unusual to see 2 & 5 cars use the opposite's stock.
This AM I saw 6431-5 and 6386-90? on the 5. It was going to Dyre Ave.
Line assignments here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html
This may change, but those changes will likely be in the 71xxs and in the renumbered 11xxs. No word yet on those changes.
Mr t became grandpa x2 Wednesday. I now have a girl to complement my grandson. My son put his digital Christmas present to good use & has already sent the family two shots of the little girl, she's in the nude in one ... bet she'll have something to say about THAT when she gets a little older.
Anyhow, going to be spending the next three days in Binghamton, maybe I'll get to check out some of the heavy RxR action there, but I dought it :-(
Congrats!
Peace,
ANDEE
Congrats to you Mr. T! I'll have to save one of my prized Cohiba's for you! ;)
Congrats to you, now you don't have to see any buses with orange stripes for a few days.
Thurston,
Congrats
Mazel Tov!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Congrats Thurston
Paul
Congrats from another member of the 3/4 ton crew...Mazel Tov Grandpa
Thanks for all the good wishes, I'll tell my son & daughter-in-law.
I'm sure they'll appreciate it AFTER eye explain who you guys are ;-)
What's that supposed to mean?:)
Congratulations! Do we each get a cigar?
Belated congrats, bro! And not to worry about Binghamton, the trains go by so often, you won't notice. :)
Only saw one coming out of Binghamnton climbing C-L-A-R-K Mt.
Aw geez ... you weren't even TRYING then. And as to CLARK Mountain, planning on moving are we? :)
Woo-woo.
Only saw one coming out of Scranton climbing C-L-A-R-K Mt.
Boy goes to the hills of upstate New York and loses it. Gotta watch out for that, bro ... too much oxygen makes ya repeat yerself, fall down, get silly, and have visions of streetcars. :)
What nice news! Congratulations, grampa!
--Mark
Congradulations, Mr. T. The best to all.
Chuck Greene
Festive Congrats, T.
Congratulations Thurston!
Congrats to you Thurston.
Congrats Thurston bestwishes to and your new arrivals god has lessed you and yours stevie & sunshine
Congratulations and good luck.
Congratulations! Now you've got one of each gender. I just read your good news today, Tuesday. Now I know why the Q25, 34, 65 and QBX1 have been running lousy today and yesterday. Get BACK here! QS riders NEED YOU!!
Here's the Post's story today on Thursday's meeting, which focuses more on the tower selection itself, but does say of the Libeskind plan, "Officials have also been impressed with his design for a train station linking the PATH and the subways."
That's more than can be said of the families of some of the WTC victims, according to this Associated Press story, who are mad about incursions on the Tower 1 footprint for use as tour bus parking space.
***
NEW YORK (AP) - Officials have proposed a grand, airy transportation hub at the World Trade Center site, but some relatives of Sept. 11 victims are angry the plan would infringe on the "footprints" of the fallen towers.
At a meeting Thursday, officials from the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owns the site, offered some broad concepts that would drive redevelopment of transportation and infrastructure at the site.
Tony Cracciolo, director of priority capital programs for the Port Authority, said a "grand point of arrival" was needed in lower Manhattan to foster economic development in a neighborhood devastated by the terrorist attacks.
One proposal sparked an emotional exchange between the community and business leaders who make up the development corporation's advisory councils.
"Your plan preserves the North Tower, but swallows the South Tower footprint," said Michael Cartier, who said his brother died in the South Tower.
Cracciolo said a place had to be found for the scores of tour buses that bring visitors to the area.
Cracciolo also expanded on the existing idea of a hub connecting the PATH underground rail line connecting Manhattan and New Jersey with a dozen subway lines in the area.
While artists' renderings showed how the transportation hub might look, Cracciolo stressed specific decisions about design had not been made.
I have news for them. The south tower footprint has already been infringed upon by PATH tracks.
At some point, the "survivor lobby" protest will start being less legitimate and just more "noise" that you have to sidestep to get the job done.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to those who died in the WTC tragedy, or their families. But a lot has been, and is already being done to accommodate their feelings, and the PA has come to the point where "enough is enough."
Time provides healing, and I think ultimately everyone will get the most important part of what he/she wants.
In the meantime, construction activity proceeds apace. The WTC is a beehive of activity.
Personally I would either want the old two towers re-built or nothing at all. Those prosals aren't real plans...they are modernist crap that will serve no useful function and will blight the City's skyline until the next terrorist attack. God damn neophiles.
Personally, that's close to what I want, too, but there's nothing wrong witrh some creativity.
And truthfully, doing a proper transit mall first is a good idea. That was missing from WTC planning when they put the towers up in the early 1970s.
let them protest. in the end, they have no say on what goes up there. their mouths and opinions reminds me of the the old crappy stereo-type of women, they are being hard to please. their involvment has totally messed up the building process that it angers alot of people who want to see a void in Manhattan come back. i am so glad that whoever is in charge is starting to pick a model and will start building. i am dissappointed that there not be any towers taller than the Petronas Towers but at least the void will be filled in a few years.
People need to vent. The key is letting them vent all they want without obstructing useful work.
So far, the work is getting done. Let's hope it stays that way.
You got that right. In fact, the very worse they could do is march to Ground Zero, and have a hunger strike or something of that manner.
I never understood the point of a hunger strike.
When you're on a hunger strike, wouldn't the person you're protesting against WANT you to starve? Or am I the only person so callous that I would have no problem with my enemies starving themselves to death by their own choice?
You are the only one.
Or am I the only person so callous that I would have no problem with my enemies starving themselves to death by their own choice?
I'd think the same way.
Hey, wait a minute, you're a person?
Sorry, typo.
I should have said pigson.
Or am I the only person so callous that I would have no problem with my enemies starving themselves to death by their own choice?
Not the only person. You're absolutely right.
The British allowed several IRA hunger strikers to die. Doctors in the Maze offered them supportive care to reduce the discomfort. It turns out it is not, from the physical pain point of view, a bad way to go.
But it is a much slower way to die than, say, encountering an SAS team while on your way to attacking your chosen target, as had happened at least three times in the last 20 years or so.
The British allowed several IRA hunger strikers to die.
We should have hanged them anyway.
>>> Or am I the only person so callous that I would have no problem with my enemies starving themselves to death by their own choice? <<<
Of course you are not the only one. A hunger striker has to be sure the ones being protested have some sort of conscience. It might have been a good tactic when used by Gandhi to stop fellow Hindus from killing Moslems in 1948, but would not have worked if used by the Jews in Auschwitz.
Even if the one being protested has no conscience, if the strike is publicized, it may be a valid tactic, such as the 1981 Northern Ireland hunger strikes which increased sympathy (and donations) in America for the Republicans (no Fred, not YOUR Republicans). If nothing else, it calls attention, like the self-immolations in South Vietnam, and suicide bombings in Israel, to the fervor in which the hunger striker has for his cause.
Tom
There are two tower projects in taiwan and bejing that are to be taller then the petronas towers. Quit frankly, height does not make a building. I would like to see a tall building on the WTC sight but, the whether or not it is the tallest in the world does not matter. Countries that build these buildings are looking for some recognition. NYC has all the regognition it needs.
Plus ever work near the top of the trade center. ti was not the most enjoyable experience
What's wrong with more?
You sound exactly like people who derided WTC I during its planning in the 1960s.
Well, at least your attitude is better than that of the NECROCRATS AND PANOPHOBES!
I hate to say it, that is exactly what people were saying about twin towers when they were built. As soon as they were gone, all of a sudden everybody like's the towers.
The twin towers up until the mid n 90's was filled with mostly government and other small companies because big business found the building not up to thier needs
The construction of the World Financial Center and Battery Park City helped the WTC become more "user friendly" in that it no longer was a dead end for pedestrians to pass through on the West Side. As built by the Port Authority, the decision to keep the plaza level with Church Street created a three-sided walled off enclave that made the facility, especially on West and Vescey streets, very unfriendly.
The creation of BPC and the WFC combined with the people who lived and worked there and the pedestrian bridges across West Street made that area more a part of downtown in general, but it took two decades to do so. Hopefully, whatever finally gets built on the site will not repeat the mistake of ignoring the topography of the street grid west of Church and will intergrate the entire thing into the surrouding area, so a horror like "The Great Wall of Vescey Street" won't be repeated.
Very true.
The WTC was a Trophy Building. It served more as a symbol of National might and Progress than as a profit generating venture.
While I am all for bidding so long to the nasty lo-rise complex, the towers should be rebuilt somewhere on the site and that sphere sculpture thing restored to working order.
Man its ridiculous really.Everyone always has to protest about something.Then they sue whoever and win the lawsuit. Ughh...that's why the city is always low on money.We keep losing it to low class punk's who bitch and moan like a bunch of geek's.
Pathetic. I'd really wish people would get over it. In a way, a lot of buildings/structures today were build on ancient battle grounds. Most of NYC today used to be battlegrounds for the Revolution and the Civil War and all of it was covered up. The WTC is no exception. People need to learn to distinguish between their feelings and common sense.
( Most of NYC today used to be battlegrounds for the Revolution and the Civil War and all of it was covered up.)
Did you ever take American History? Even if you're referring to the draft riots, I've never before heard them referred to as Civil War battles.
Well, what about Europe after WWII. If people there felt the same way about these relatives do here, Europe would be nothing but memorials and parks. If you take 2 feet of the "holy" footprints, good for you. Do whatever you need to do. All I want out of the World Trade Crater is to build a few buildings, a rail hub, and as little amount of "memorials" as possible. When I wanted to mourn, I did it in my own house. Honestly, I do not want to be reminded of 9/11 whenever I go into Lower Manhattan. Once again, look at Europe. London, to be specific. I do not recall ever hearing about preserving ANY building's footprints which were destroyed during the bombings. Move on with life. Do not focus on the past. Move into the future. I think that even without a memorial, nobody will not know what happened.
Once again, look at Europe ... I do not recall ever hearing about preserving ANY building's footprints which were destroyed during the bombings.
Coventry Cathedral.
Destroyed along with the rest of downtown Coventry by a bombing raid on November 14th 1940; the old cathedral was deliberately left in ruins as a memorial and a new one built next door.
http://wso.williams.edu:8000/~dredmond/cathedrals/coventry/
Ahhhh. Lord do I miss the World Trade Center. Whatever the reasons behind its construction, however the variable real estate waxed and waned, and ignoring the "architectual critics", the place was a true nexus. In my mind it was always a destination. Plenty of times I'd get no further north from Brooklyn than the W.T.C. It seemed like enough.
That PATH escalator complex....amazingly busy and useful. And I'm proud to say, I rarely ever rode `em up from the station! Always walked, always walked up to the street. The stores, the crowds purposefully moving, streaming to their respective destinations...the idea that you could leave the state right from This Building...the sounds of all that hub bub...even the cool moderne aspects of the interior...modern-day art deco....
Lovely lovely place to wander. You could get lost in it. I was proud to have known it. Definitely a New York ONLY thing, in all the world.
It certainly was a busier place in the final 10-12 years of its life. Before the construction of Battery Park City the WFC and the pedestrian crossings, the busy part of the center at ground level really ended at the PATH escallator bank -- there really wasn't much other reason to go west of there, unless you worked in Tower 1 or 2, or were a tourist or a Windows of the World patron. Even the western part of the plaza became more people friendly in the final years, since you could actually pass through it while going from Point A to Point B. As designed originally, the plaza steered you in at Church Street and pretty much forced you to go out the same way.
Whatever is built there will immediately attract more people than the original WTC site did, for obvious reasons. I just hope the final plan isn't as aloof from the rest of the neighborhood as the original 16 acre layout was.
I've noticed some odd numbers on several speed signs in the subway. I guess I've been used to seeing 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40. But recently I've noticed 18, 19, 29 and 32 posted speeds. It's actually interesting seeing these unusual amounts. Has anyone seen any mixed numbers, non-repeating non terminating decimals or imaginary numbers listed?
Well riding on the N line passing 34th Street I saw a sign that simply said "guess the speed limit, if you right you make to the next station, if you wrong, you get fired" and on the Queens Boulevard Line there are alot of 36 mph signs, which is extremely odd, why not 40 or 35?
Or why not 37.5 MPH?
Good Point!
Because the speedo in the subway cabs only show whole numbers.
I'm guessing it has something to do with the trippers and the distance it takes a train at a certain speed to be able to safely respond to a less than clear signal or upcoming curve.
Michael
Washington, DC
On the "A" near Far Rock, one milepost says "Pi (3.14....) MPH" with the Pi sign.
the 7 near Flushing has one for "(radical sign) 100 MPH"
I guess the MTA wants its TO's to think more while on the job.
What is really interesting is that these signs were also posted at a time when most trains didn't have speedometers.
--Mark
Back in the old days, though you KNEW what 15, 20, 30, etc "looked like" and "sounded like" (especially on the prewar cars where the pitch of the motors were FAR more accurate than the toys used today). And of course if your eyeballs or ears were improperly calibrated, you'd end up having to go BIE or else. Made you get to know what the numbers correlated to either in number of pillars passed per second or what note the motors made at the right speed. :)
I'd hate to have to try to operate today, taking me eyes off the steel to look at a red number that may or may not reflect reality. :(
After a week or so on the same line, you still get to know what speed looks like. You also know where the posted speed does not reflect reality (and when the speedometer does not reflect actual speed). I know lots of places where doing the posted speed will just hasten the journey to Labor Relations.
Heh. I was HOPING you'd chide in with that. Yeah, timers have had the ability to "drift" for many many years. I'm also amused to hear that the southbound out of DeKalb onto the Brighton is as quirky as ever, makes me shed a tear of nostalgia. Though it was posted for 15 at one spot, 5 was often pressing your luck. You could smell the grids before it would clear sometimes as you kept bumping and braking up to those damned timers. :)
But just so ya know, I always considered the speedos as laughable just on general principle, because despite some comments by folks that never DID the job, it DOES require skill, and if you can't acquire it in three weeks after posting, you really should be doing something else.
And if you had a musical ear, those spur-cut bull and pinion gears were the sweetest sound this side of heaven!
Maybe to you ... for the likes of me it was like working at a power plant and making sure that the nice 3600 RPM didn't phase shift or change pitch. I'll say one thing though with respect to your own appreciation of the beasties - I actually got an Arnine up to Central Park West speed at Branford (no easy task given the short run and the lighter iron) and ALMOST got her up to Queens Blvd speed before we ran out of straightaway. The LOOK on Unca Lou's face was amusing until I realized I was actually starting to get him MIGHTY nervous.
But yeah, that pitch was crucial in determining how you were doing on the *real* railroad ... sorry I don't have the musician's ears and appreciation, but as a motorman it was nice to know that I got her up past 45 MPH ... wish I had a few hundred more feet (at least) ...
Well, I heard 1689's gears get up to E above middle C on the outbound straightaway last October. That works out to 30-35 mph, I'd say. AA trains used to reach that pitch between 59th and 72nd. The few prewar D trains I rode up CPW hit F# above middle C, around 45 mph or so. The BMT standards used to get all the way up to G# above middle C at the lowest point in the 14th St. tunnel. They needed a full head of steam before the uphill climb.
Picky picky picky ... well, that's the pitch they did on CPW northbound ... so looks like your "need for speed" there wasn't as intense as ya mighta thought. :)
There isn't enough straightaway at Shoreline to get up to CPW express speed. Not without derailing on that curve, anyway. Now OTOH if we were to do this on that stretch you described in your neck of the woods, it would be Katy bar the doors.:) I still wish I could have had a crack at an outbound run just to get 1689 up to E above middle C range.
Of course, with no headlights, those I-beams could be difficult to see. Still, it was a cool sight with nothing but tunnel lights providing illumination. Those I-beams became silhouettes.
In the cab, you'd still make them out as they flew by on your right through the cab side window. That's where you'd be paying attention in your peripheral view ... as the nuns would say "eyes forward" ... that's what you did on the rails. Locked in your broom closet, you were keenly aware of what was going on around you, and there was PLENTY of light to spot your beams. Remember also that where you didn't have headlights, you still had your motor and gearbox, the PRIME instrument. Never ran any of the post-war cars with no headlights, don't think it was possible actually ...
The R-10s and R-16s were delivered without headlights and received them later. IIRC the R-22s were the first cars to have factory-installed headlights. None of the R-1s ever got headlights. Nor did most of the R-4s.
Sometimes ya had them, sometimes ya didn't. They usually managed to get a 6 or a 9 on the ends though.
The last few prewar D trains I rode on didn't have headlights. I still vivdly remember the very last one I ever rode on. There was enough time for a CPW jaunt to 125th St. before our bus left from Port Authority, so I stayed on board at 59th and just savored every second of those gears wailing away. Believe me, I did not want to get off that train at 125th.
Yeah, there were a few that didn't although they'd try to knock together consists that had them. I'd get one every now and then that didn't, even got some that did where the bulbs weren't there. As for the Branford run, the one I did got up to the right pitch just before I had to shut her down for the gap and apply. But yeah, would have been nice to have had a couple of miles of straightaway. Nothing like some real speed to bring out that patented blue smoke. :)
Nancy got 1689 up to E above middle C, as I recall. So did Dougie.
You know, I never noticed any blue smoke emanating from R-1/9 trains. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Was smoke more common after express runs?
They weren't ALL heavy smokers, but where you had the gearbox grease making its way to the wheel treads, when you pulled a good hard brake, you could make them smoke. The TRICK was to get your shoes on the treads with a couple of pounds, then apply. But some of those cars could REALLY smoke up the house. :)
The last few prewar D trains I rode on didn't have headlights. I still vivdly remember the very last one I ever rode on. There was enough time for a CPW jaunt to 125th St. before our bus left from Port Authority, so I stayed on board at 59th and just savored every second of those gears wailing away. Believe me, I did not want to get off that train at 125th.
Made you get to know what the numbers correlated to either in number of pillars passed per second or what note the motors made at the right speed. :)<
Reminds me of a PATH ride I took a couple weeks ago. A new engineer was getting trained on the road by an old-timer. It started at 33rd where the south end car didn't have its end door locked or chain in place, and the engineer caught it and told the guy training him. We took tunnel B to NJ from 33rd. Before 9th, the trainer says "I normally sound the horn around here" and the engineer says "and it's in the rulebook, too". To get to the point of the story, once we cleared Morton (and dropped off a worker), the trainer said "there's no timers here - you have to count the lights to know when you're clear of the twists". I wonder why they didn't put a [R] (esume) marker up - they do have the [3] through [8] markers in the junctions for reverse-direction operation.
Perhaps, unlike MTA, they don't want to insult the intelligence of supposedly "skilled workers" and haven't had any "events" which caused the requisite study group to be formed. Either that of the R sign is still in committee. :)
I'll never forget when I got broken in on the D line (which I'd ridden for YEARS before getting the gig) ... thought I knew everything there was to know living in the foamer glass ... nope. Learned the fine art of shooting the grade timers northbound into 59th, where to slow southbound into 59th so that I could take it at speed right into the station (RUSH HOUR!) without having to stop, where to kick it on the downgrades so as to not lose speed climbing, and literally hundreds of little "nuances" about how to work the timers. Didn't know the Brighton end of the run since I lived in the Bronx, and learned all the other tricks of using gravity here, where to coast, and basically how to do the run without having to apply brake often or kick it with too much power.
I'm glad to hear actually that there's still some "skill" required and that there's motor instructors out there still willing to teach the tricks without all the fuss ...
My guess is that they're estimates of 30, 30, 45 and 50 km/h.
It's funny you should mention irrational (non-repeating non terminating decimals) speed signs, I just happened to see this last week at the approach to 76th Street.
You know I thought The_Rockaway_Kid was kidding when he said he said he saw pi on a speed sign. But you've come across with the hard evidence to prove that the TA is moving away from the set of positive integral values for speeds to a much larger set of real numbers. I want to thank both of you for your support.
But Pi is 3.14 . That's an awful slow speed! 3.14 miles per hour???
Chuck Greene
They've been tweaking the timers on the Brighton again. :)
Yeah, if Pi were a speed designation on the Brighton, then BMT would = Barely Moving Trains.
You mean? It doesn't? :)
Maybe they're trying to get T/Os with more technical education. The next step would be having the speed be the solution to a posted quadratic equation.
Now you know why there's a computer in the cab. Unfortunately though, it's running Windows and thus will suffer a divide by zero error and crash. :)
Then you'd get a message such as:
That does not compute.......
Actually, it'd go on its knees as soon as the divide by zero occurred. Windows CANNOT divide by zero. Causes blue screen and lockup. Microsoft never figured out that the answer to a divide by zero is zero. :(
4thAvenueLocal said he saw it on the approach to 76th Street. I assume he meant before you would have to knock down the brick wall, in which case 3.14 or 22/7 would be a prudent speed. Now that I think about it, on the approach to a brick wall, pi might even be too fast. I think "e" the base of the natural logarithms would be a safer speed as it is about 2.718.
For the record, a collision with a parked solid object at 3 MPH results in anticlimber damage of sufficient proportions to achieve employment termination in a moving Arnine. I managed to determine that the hard way. :)
A more prudent speed might be the reciprocal of 100 MPH.
I've seen 13, 26, 36, 45 mile speed signs. Pretty interesting.
In all seriousness, which I'm sure was not your intent:
Some funny-number speed limit signs were put up as
part of the post-1995 WB accident systemwide cleanup. The
speed is based on emergency stopping distances. Most of these
were temporary fixes until control line lengths could be increased
to take care of the problem.
The classic "36 MILES" etc. signs on the IND reflect the calculated
optimal speed based on the curvature and amount of superelevation.
In other words, you should be doing exactly that speed to cancel
out non-inertial reference frame effects and achieve maximum passenger
comfort.
"In all seriousness, which I'm sure was not your intent"
Jeff... My intent in posting the question was mostly serious, as those odd values intrigued me. Your explanation of them arising after the Williamsburg Bridge accident answers the question.
My use of humor in many of my posts reflects my whimsical take on things and a desire not to be "in an all seriousness mode".
Cbsmarketwatch.com just reported that a fire is "raging" at a Staten Island refinery. No other reports that I can find. Can anyone with a view in that direction see anything? I was wondering if it could be anywhere near the SIRT.
Interesting query: the stock market indices dropped significantly at about 10, though they've recovered somewhat. Coincidence?
The fire is in the Port Mobil facility in the Arthur Kill in Staten Island.
Most of the fire is in the water although it is starting to spread inward to the refinery area.
No further information is available.
Fox News:
Friday, February 21, 2003
Huge Blaze at NYC Oil Refinery
NEW YORK — Fire broke out at an oil refinery on the edge of the New York City borough of Staten Island, sending black smoke and flames hundreds of feet into the air over New York Harbor.
It wasn't immediately clear how the fire started. It was reported shortly after 10 a.m., according to a spokeswoman for the New York Fire Department.
No further information was immediately available.
Latest word is that it was a Propane barge being filled.
No it was not propane, it was a barge. Most liklely it was gasoline. Port Mobil is the largest fuel transfer site on the east coast. It also feeds a pipeline that goes all the way to Ohio.
A barge caught fire and sunk. Two crew members, one has died and one is missing. One Mobil employee is in a SI Hospital with 3rd degree burns.
Bouchard Transporation Co. was the owner of the barges. They have been in trouble before with NY, OSHA and the Coast Guard. They run a lot of barges all over the east coast.
Even the news up here keeps calling it a "refinery" ... as far as I know, with the closing of the Montauk Oil site at the Port of Albany some ten years ago, there are *NO* refineries anywhere in the state anymore.
According to the news here tonight it is a refinery, albeit a small one; 125 million gallons of storage, but only 55,000 gallons of gasoline refined per day (plus whatever additional byproducts come from that process).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bless your media ...
Petroleum Profile: New York
Note down near the bottom, "there are *NO* refineries in New York." The VERY last refinery (a real tiny one) was run by "Montauk Oil Corporation" (owned by former State Senate Majority Leader Perry Duryea) back in 1994. It was located at Selkirk, NY on the banks of the Hudson ... that was the last one in the state.
Silly media, tricks are for hookers. :)
CBS News, for whatever that's worth...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoops. :)
Refinery? I thought it was just a tank farm. Oh yeah, FOX ... nevermind. :(
Fuel Transfer Facility, no refining is done there.
Reminds me of one time about '81 or '82 where my wife and I were in bed one winter's night. It was about 2am and we were getting a little frisky. We were getting into it when I heard a rumble in the alleyway. At the time I thought the boiler downstairs blew up. So I broke off the activities and told my wife to go back asleep. The next day I heard that a refinery in NJ blew up.
Mob-Oil terminal ... someone failed to observe the No Smoking signs. Do NOT break out the duct tape ... :)
Since the fire reportedly started on the Barge where one died and one is missing and they work for Bouchard Transporation and not Mobil, I would bet on it but would withhold futher judgement until the investigation is complete.
I know firefighters from Staten Island who are on the planned response to Port Mobil and have trained with Port Mobil employees and they have said Mobil people are very perfessional and saftey minded. Put anyone can get a brain cramp.
I guess I shouldn't have been so flippant about it - alas, the whole "it's TERRORISTS" nonsense raised its head again among our blessed "medi-uh" and it just galls me that AMERICANS are doing the work of Al Qaeda, and QUITE prolifically. I'm of the mind that we should be rounding up the PRESS for terrorist acts. Don't mind me, I've just had a royal snootful of all this ... and of course the Rhode Island fire was also reported as "terrorism" at first by the usual suspects. :(
I saw that on TV this morning around 10:30am and it was INTENSE but I'm sure it burned itself out by now.
I heard about a serious explosion/fire at Mobil in Staten Island...anyone have particulars?
A co-worker told me the island is essentially quarantined at this point.
Some kind of barge exploded that was being loaded with propane or petroleum - the flames are high, but the fire seems contained to the waterfront area. They are not sure what caused the fire/explosion.
Come on Doug... Turn on the radio... It's a localized fire...
I was hoping it'd at least reach Sheepshead Bay...
No BMTman, the smog from the fire HAS to go somewhere along 62-64th streets in Brooklyn, then head south between West 7th and West 8th Streets.
I've got my radio set to the Conelrad frequency, and at first word of any danger I am going to evacuate up at 161st Street. There are plenty of facilities up there.
Hi Paul,
Is that shortwave?
Can you post the frequency?
Thanks
640 and 1240 kilocycles on the AM band. However, you'd need a wayback machine to listen in - the Department of Civil Defense ceased to exist when FEMA was formed back in the times of Nixon/Ford ... VERY old AM radios had a little circle with a triangle in it at the two locations on the dial so you didn't need to remember 640 and 1240 ...
VERY old AM radios had a little circle with a triangle in it at the two locations on the dial so you didn't need to remember 640 and 1240 ...
Yeah, like the one in my pickup...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure Heypaul managed to collect the whole set. :)
Oh hell yeah, those triangles...always on those car radios that were easy to set a push button for the station...pull the button out, push it back in. Easy! Why, that brings back memories of duck and cover under the desk...
Sadly, unlike other "duck and cover times" of the past, there isn't any decent music to compensate for it. :(
Conelrad's long since gone ... what you MIGHT find amusing though is that the OFFICIAL "Emergency Broadcast master facility" is ... (drum roll, please) ... THE WEATHER CHANNEL!
So since you're NOT in ATLANTA, you're SCREWED ...
Seriously though, google EBS and EAN (Emergency Broadcasting System) and Emergency Activation Notice) ... these are FCC regulations. Weather Channel is the PRIMARY ... eesh.
From Yahoo! Finance:
At the bottom of the last hour, the Dow, S&P 500, and Nasdaq plunged approximately 104, 10.8, and 18 points from their respective session highs in response to trader talk of a huge flume of smoke off Staten Island... However, after receiving confirmation from several news services that the fire stemmed from an explosion in a gasoline storage facility, rather than initial fears of suspected terrorist activity, the major indices have pared most of their losses...
I think I'd better withdraw some money from my 401K* so I can open an adult-diaper shop on Wall Street. Christ, what a pathetic bunch of cowards.
* = which, of course, has been sinking like the Titanic.
I'm always skeptical of news reports that suppose to know why stock markets go up or down on a given day. What we actually know is that that stock prices dipped when the fire became known, and when it was found not to be terrorism, stock prices rebounded. But all we've shown is corelation, not cause-and-effect. I think it is a very rational conclusion that the fire and the stock price changes are related, and it's probably correct. But I've heard many more reports where the cause-and-effect relationship is less certain, but nonetheless reported as fact. "Today stock prices soared in response to..." Of course, we could only know that if we intereviewed a statistically large number of investors to find out why they decided to buy or sell on a certain day. If that is done, it's not mentioned in the news reports.
Mark
I'm always skeptical of news reports that suppose to know why stock markets go up or down on a given day. What we actually know is that that stock prices dipped when the fire became known, and when it was found not to be terrorism, stock prices rebounded. But all we've shown is corelation, not cause-and-effect. I think it is a very rational conclusion that the fire and the stock price changes are related, and it's probably correct. But I've heard many more reports where the cause-and-effect relationship is less certain, but nonetheless reported as fact. "Today stock prices soared in response to..." Of course, we could only know that if we intereviewed a statistically large number of investors to find out why they decided to buy or sell on a certain day. If that is done, it's not mentioned in the news reports.For sure. Financial media outlets all want to seem like they have special insights and therefore pounce on the most dubious anecdotes as if they were the the Voice of Wisdom from Mount Olympus. What might contribute to this practice is what I would imagine to be the great difficulty in getting statistically significant information to explain stock moves. After all, the stock market is as dynamic as you can get, with major changes happening in minutes. I couldn't imagine how accurate polls of investors could be done, even with unlimited resources.
While it's true that correlation does not prove causation, I'd still say that this morning's events are an exception. Stock indices were up modestly but plummed in excess of 1% within the first couple of minutes after the news broke about the Staten Island fire. There wasn't anything else that could have explained such a reaction. There was no economic news aside from an as-expected inflation report, no corporate earnings reports of any significance, and nothing much on the Iraq situation.
Your formatting sucks!
Tom
Your formatting sucks!
I'd made a mistake with the HTML and posted without previewing. That's why I quickly reposted the message in proper form.
Repost - I messed up the HTML on the first one.
I'm always skeptical of news reports that suppose to know why stock markets go up or down on a given day. What we actually know is that that stock prices dipped when the fire became known, and when it was found not to be terrorism, stock prices rebounded. But all we've shown is corelation, not cause-and-effect. I think it is a very rational conclusion that the fire and the stock price changes are related, and it's probably correct. But I've heard many more reports where the cause-and-effect relationship is less certain, but nonetheless reported as fact. "Today stock prices soared in response to..." Of course, we could only know that if we intereviewed a statistically large number of investors to find out why they decided to buy or sell on a certain day. If that is done, it's not mentioned in the news reports.
For sure. Financial media outlets all want to seem like they have special insights and therefore pounce on the most dubious anecdotes as if they were the the Voice of Wisdom from Mount Olympus. What might contribute to this practice is what I would imagine to be the great difficulty in getting statistically significant information to explain stock moves. After all, the stock market is as dynamic as you can get, with major changes happening in minutes. I couldn't imagine how accurate polls of investors could be done, even with unlimited resources.
While it's true that correlation does not prove causation, I'd still say that this morning's events are an exception. Stock indices were up modestly but plummed in excess of 1% within the first couple of minutes after the news broke about the Staten Island fire. There wasn't anything else that could have explained such a reaction. There was no economic news aside from an as-expected inflation report, no corporate earnings reports of any significance, and nothing much on the Iraq situation.
Of course, with your keen insight into which events are terrorism and which ones are simply accidents -- shouldn't you have been plunging your every available penny into the market as it fell?
Or were you a coward too?
Of course, with your keen insight into which events are terrorism and which ones are simply accidents -- shouldn't you have been plunging your every available penny into the market as it fell?
Or were you a coward too?
Most of what I have is tied up in my 401K, so I'm basically at the mercy of the fund managers.
I don't have any "keen insight" as to what is and is not terrorism. I do, however, have two views on the subject:
1) The terrorist threat to America is grossly overblown, with 9/11 basically a one-shot deal.
2) Even if the Staten Island fire had been an act of terrorism, so what? It wouldn't mark the end of American society. Other counties have lived with ongoing terrorist threats.
I gotta agree with your statement about 9/11 being a one-shot deal. Not to be callous about it. But I think it's real hard for people to want to destroy this country....after being here. Gotta be light-years ahead of anywhere "they" might come from. To be immersed in this culture means the suble and no-so-subtle effects of the American Society quickly establish themselves as the norm. After experiencing toilet paper who would want to go back to pebbles...or their left hand?
I really think most guys come here, get hypnotized by the supermarkets and women and quickly forget the original purpose of their "mission". To them it's the closest thing on the planet to their "paradise". Why jack it up?
>>> I think it's real hard for people to want to destroy this country....after being here. Gotta be light-years ahead of anywhere "they" might come from. To be immersed in this culture means the suble and no-so-subtle effects of the American Society quickly establish themselves as the norm. <<<
It is beliefs like yours that keep us from understanding the thinking of the rest of the world. There are many people in many countries that think their countries are just fine. Not everyone in the world wants to be an American after seeing America. Believe it or not, there are even some Americans who for some unfathomable reason, do not want to be New Yorkers.
Tom
> It is beliefs like yours that keep us from understanding the
> thinking of the rest of the world. There are many people in many
> countries that think their countries are just fine. Not everyone in
> the world wants to be an American after seeing America. Believe it
> or not, there are even some Americans who for some unfathomable
> reason, do not want to be New Yorkers.
Oh, come on now....just because I have an ingrained suspicion that America is the greatest place in the world to live in, and that many many people who live in or come from other countries feel precisely the same way doesn't preclude me from understanding the "thinking" of those folks from other countries.
It's logical. You can get pretty used to stuff like clean water, safe streets, low unemployment, plenty of stores, no food shortages, room to dream. But sure, I can understand how it is in other places. That's no big deal. Until I see that nobody wants to come here, legally or otherwise, however, I'll continue with my belief that most of them do want to become "Americanized"....even if at first they're stubborn about learning the language. Our culture is strong. We'll get to them...or their children. And that's how it's done.
(Until I see that nobody wants to come here, legally or otherwise, however, I'll continue with my belief that most of them do want to become "Americanized")
Let's say for the sake of argument that 99% of people would love to have American culture, values, and income if they could.
That still leaves 1%, or 50 million, who don't. Of those 50 million, all it takes is 10,000 who actively want to destroy American culture, and you have a problem.
>>> Let's say for the sake of argument that 99% of people would love to have American culture, values, and income if they could. <<<
And the real number is reversed, less than 1% want to replace their own cultures with American values. There is nothing wrong with Americans loving America. The problem arises when Americans think the whole world loves or should love America, and cannot understand why most of them do not.
Tom
Dude....I don't give a flying pluck if the "rest of the world" loves America. I'm talking more granular things. Indoor plumbing, sanitary lifestyle conditions, reliable infrastructure, abundant food, clean water. Understand? For one reason or another, us Americans have been able to have these things, by and large. Any other country wants to go fer it, I say good for them. So many can't get their acts together though....
I have no desire whatsoever to move to any other country in the world. What for? (Maybe a visit to see trains. Maybe.) Talk to people in every country in the world. There'll be some in every country who want to live here. Where you getting this "one percent" jazz?
>>> There'll be some in every country who want to live here. Where you getting this "one percent" jazz? <<<
I get the one percent jazz from living in foreign countries and interacting with the natives of those countries, as well as with foreign students in the U.S. I agree that there will be some in every country who want to live here, but that is far from a majority of people in other countries as you suggested in a previous post where you said "I'll continue with my belief that most of them do want to become ‘Americanized'". Even those who come to the U.S. as political or economic refugees do not necessarily want to be Americanized any more than Americans taking high paying jobs in Saudi oil fields want to become integrated into that country's culture.
Tom
"I get the one percent jazz from living in foreign countries and interacting with the natives of those countries, as well as with foreign students in the U.S. I agree that there will be some in every country who want to live here, but that is far from a majority of people in other countries as you suggested"
Well, then those are the folks we should want to move here. The heck with the rest of them. BTW, I would temper my analysis of the native citizens of countries you've been in with the realization that maybe, just maybe it wouldn't behoove such folk to go around telling you their opinions of their country vs our country.
Anyway, they're watching our shows and movies...seen any good Iraqi television shows lately? Or German movies? Look at how France gets nutty about "American Culture". We got what the world wants. If you're a citizen of a poor country, how would you feel? Sit there and moan about how "evil" our culture is based on the times you've seen The Beverly Hillbillies? Or have a desire growing in you to Live Like That? For the average person, I'd wager it's the second statement. The thing we should be doing is encouraging them to effect changes in their societies so as to increase the level of personal freedoms available to them.
That's their problem.
Not just the stock market -- I was talking with an official in Texas about the oil/gas drilling permit applications this morning, and he said the crude/heating oil prices spiked up on news of the explosion (after which I had to tell him it wasn't going to mean much unless it was on the other side of the Arthur Kill, like the big Exxon refinery blast back in the 1970s).
I really can't be too upset with the pants-wetters any longer. It bothered me to no end up until I actually saw the "ready.gov" put up by our Keystone Cops administration ... apparently you haven't seen the highlights of WHY they were flipping out ...
* To avoid breathing dangerous chemicals, cover your nose and mouth with enough cloth to filter the air but "still allow breathing."
* In the event of a nuclear detonation one should "quickly assess the situation."
* In the event of a radiation threat, public health officials "may or may not advise you to take potassium iodide" which "may or may not protect your thyroid gland."
* An emergency first aid kit should contain such items as activated charcoal, laxatives, and a "tube of petroleum jelly or other lubricant." This unexplained advice is reminiscent of the famous scene in the movie Dr. Strangelove when the pilot of the plane (Slim Pickins) about to accidentally launch a nuclear Armageddon assesses the crew's emergency kit as what you'd need for "a good weekend in Vegas."
* In addition to the now-infamous suggestion to stock up on duct tape and plastic sheeting to create a makeshift "clean room" the site suggests "measuring and cutting the sheeting in advance to save time."
* In what is sure to become a favorite of late-night joke writers, the site suggests stockpiling plastic garbage bags and ties for "personal sanitation," an unsavory necessity previously contemplated only by astronauts and those who choose to travel long distances in hot air balloons.
* In a fine example of technical precision, the site advises that, "Many potential terrorist attacks could send tiny microscopic 'junk' into the air"
* And nicely summing up the Bush Administration's general approach to homeland security, the site contains the following disclaimer: "We are not responsible if information that we make available on this site is not accurate, complete or current. The materials on this site are provided for general information only, and any reliance upon the material found on this site will be at your own risk." No doubt about that.
One conspicuous omission from the web site is instructions on how to create the heat shield that Secretary Ridge obviously carries at all times, because his Department is constantly releasing statements and projects that would make ordinary Americans cringe with embarrassment. Ready.gov is merely the latest example.
But yeah, I don't blame folks for leaving puddles as they waddle any longer. :(
An emergency first aid kit should contain such items as activated charcoal, laxatives, and a "tube of petroleum jelly or other lubricant." This unexplained advice is reminiscent of the famous scene in the movie Dr. Strangelove when the pilot of the plane (Slim Pickins) about to accidentally launch a nuclear Armageddon assesses the crew's emergency kit as what you'd need for "a good weekend in Vegas."
Trivia: the line as originally filmed was "a good weekend in Dallas." A few months before the movie was released, however, JFK was shot in Dallas, and in the interests of good taste Stanley Kubrick agreed to change it to "Vegas." Funny thing is, "Vegas" made more sense in this context.
Yeah, Dallas just ain't the kind of place anybody would really think of when it comes to partying. What WAS Kubrick smoking? :)
With Deep Ellum and the West End (and ligh rail between the two now), it's a lot better than 20-25 years ago, but it's still definitely not Vegas.
Ah, but do they have DUCT TAPE technology? :)
Their rail cars aren't old enough yet to have the latest duct tape technology, a la the R-38s or the R-40s, though I think some of the modified warehouses that have been turned into clubs in Deep Ellum probably emmploy it to hold their buildings together (and for all I know Bill Pacells may have to use it on the Cowboys this fall...)
Heh. Touché, y'all. :)
>>> Dallas just ain't the kind of place anybody would really think of when it comes to partying. <<<
But for the Slim Pickens character, Major Kong, Dallas was his kind of party town. He was not one you would be likely to rub shoulders with at the Desert Inn, Sands, or Dunes back in 1964. Terry Southern knew what was funny.
Tom
Yeah, I know. Ya don't think "Par-tay" upstate either. That's what ORLANDO is for. Geesh. :)
I was waiting for this:
From Maureen Dowd’s Op-Ed column in today’s New York Times:
According to Al Kamen of The Washington Post, almost half the duct tape sold in the U.S. comes from a company whose founder gave more than $100,000 to Republicans in 2000.
I am shocked!
I do recommend the article for some priceless lines, such as:
What can the Bush administration learn from a focus group of understandably confused Americans about making our borders and ports more secure? Do they have a preferred thickness of duct tape? Should they head straight to the bomb shelter or stop by Blockbuster first?
John
I'm more interested in what they're WEARING in the bomb shelter and will J Lo be available in the chat room if the lights go out. But wait, gets better. They're NOW touting the "3M model R95 respirator" as the penultimate solution to terrorist attacks. Maybe it wouldn't be half as laughable if the item in question weren't designed as a WOOD DUST particulate mask. I suppose one could duct tape on a used cannister perhaps. :(
How *DID* we manage to survive the cold war?
How *DID* we manage to survive the cold war?
The did not make disposable adult diapers in those days, so you *knew* when you wet your pants.
Elias
Heh. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury ... :)
"This is Mike Jones of CNN. Panic erupted in the city today when a truck backfired in Times Square today. A 37 year old man screamed "It's the big one...get the duct tape!" and thousands of terrified pedestrians choked 7th Avenue and Broadway for hours as they ran frantically looking for a home depot. Transit police were called in to restore order when an unruly mob at the 42/8th Ave. subway station began to tear duct tape off the roofs of arriving trains. Many panic-stricken tourists assaulted desk clerks in midtown hotels when they were told there was no platic sheeting for them to wrap their loved ones in. Police officers on horseback told stories of one young woman who offered to recreate Lady Godiva's ride if only they would give her a horse to escape on. Order was finally restored when Home Depot agreed to truck in 537,00 free rolls of duct tape. This is Mike Jones, reporting for CNN, from the middle of Times Square."
Hey, it COULD happen...QUACK QUACK! ;-)
Sadly it could ... and chances are it would be the CNN TV truck that backfired. :)
Should I be equipping my ambulance crews with duct tape? When we get called to City Hall we could put it where it belongs! (LOL)
And don't forget those 3M R95 "gas masks" for prevention of sawdust stains on your nostrils. :-\
We *do* have duct tape on our ambulance, mostly to secure people to backboards, but I bought WHITE duct tape, for that would look more professional on an ambulance that the gray kind.
Elias
"This is Mike Jones of CNN. Panic erupted in the city today when a truck backfired in Times Square today........................"
That does it !! I'm facing this orange alert head on. Screw the duct tape, plastic film and gas masks. I'm heading to my local pharmacy with a doctors prescription for VIAGRA ! If I gotta go, I'm going out with a smile on my face and not a gas mask !!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Screw the duct tape, plastic film and gas masks. I'm heading to my local pharmacy with a doctors prescription for VIAGRA ! If I gotta go, I'm going out with a smile on my face and not a gas mask !!!!!!!
Use enough Viagra, and when you do go they won't be able to close the coffin.
"Use enough Viagra, and when you do go they won't be able to close the coffin."
A very UPLIFTING comment, Mr. Rosa !
Bill "Newkirk"
"How *DID* we manage to survive the cold war?"
We did !! I remember, duck and cover (under my school desk), air raid siren tests, Conelrad (sp?) which became the Emergency Broadcast System, apartment buildings with yellow and black "bomb shelter" signs. But no panic like we have today. I only have one roll of duct tape in my workshop and that's for general use. Also no clear film sheeting for my windows and no gas masks or provisions squirreled away.
In fact, I never flinched when there was a panic for the new milenium because computers would leave the world in kaos and power plants in the dark. Sheesh, gimme a break !
Or maybe it's our news story hungry news media that imforms use while whipping us into a sheer panic. The news media wasn't like that back in the day of the Cold War, duck and cover and bomb shelters. Or maybe I don't sit in front of the boob tube and hang on every word Sue Simmons and Chuck Scarborough say and bite my fingernails clean off !
"Bill Newkirk"
Maybe Fozz News will hire Bert the turtle. :)
Here's three pics of the latest Amtrak Superliner Paint Scheme..
Amtrak Superliner Phase ??
Amtrak Superliner Phase ?? (2)
Amtrak Superliner Phase ?? (3)
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
IIRC, it's phase IV (4), NEC. Phase V(5) is the Acela scheme, which was never used outside the NEC on cars (engines, yes.) What exactly is phase I livery? I know Phase II is the R.W.B and Phase III is similar to that.
Phase I was the original scheme of broad red and blue stripes separated by a narrow white stripe. It differed from Phase II in that it had a big arrow logo on a white background at one or both ends of the pier panel. See the URL below, though the images are rather small.
http://www.geocities.com/njt4148/amtrakgifs.html
Alan Follett
Hercules
Phase I liver is the paint scheme with the Amtrak Point arrow with 3 large stripes odwhite,blue,and red.
AMI
Phase I livery is the paint scheme with the Amtrak Point arrow with 3 large stripes odwhite,blue,and red.
AMI
Its phaze VI. Phaze VI is Phaze IV striping with the new Amtrak logo.
Now we all know, before they get one half of the present fleet redone to match these photos, they will bring out "Phase 56.3" in a totally different arrangement.
I think if Amtrak would stop trying to design new paint schemes and having to redo the fleet all too often, they might save some big bucks!!!
True, But I like the new paint schemes.
Cars are only re-painted when they are brought in for an overhaul or other repairs. They need to be re-painted anyway, why not try for a more up to date look.
Is is so apparent that one would think with common sense and reasoning that if you are flat broke and you cannot ask Republican led government, led by a Republican president for more federal funding. That Amtrak is at the mercey of receivership any day now, and Mr. Clean, Amtrak President David Gunn allows new coatings of pain on it's aging fleet.
One of the many reasons why Amtrak will die an unhappy death by 2006.
I actually like it, except for the fact that you can still see the large-type "AMTRAK" thru it from the last paint job (see pic 2 to see what I mean).
I see, I like the new scheme to , but I would rather Amtrak to make a Phase V Scheme, it would look much better, but then again I wish Amtrak would save its money. They look kinda like the Surfliners now, I wish they can convert the doors on the superliners to look like the Surfliners and Amtrak California Cars.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
What's a transition sleeper?
Once you fall asleep, they drag you to the baggage car to make room for more ... you'll never know. :)
Its a car that is single level on one end and bi-level on the other. It makes the transition.
Looks just like a regular Superliner carbody, with the high car-to-car doorways at one end (to match Superliners) and a low one at the other end (to match conventional single level cars, Bombardier commuter cars, Caltrain/Metra gallery cars, etc.
Was just looking around and found that "bve.w-train.com" is not available from "Echolima Web Services" its most recent host. Since I only remember the name "DarkDefender" as being its most recent webmaster, was wondering if anybody knew what happened or whether it will return?
I am working with the webmaster now, the site has been hacked and will return soon, in the mean time use my alternate website I have built...
New York City BVE Authority
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
Wow ... my sympathies ... Microsoft IIS, eh?
Thanks for the tip! :)
No Problem!! My and the Webmaster are doing our best to get the website back onto the net, He has gave me permission to start my site as a alternate and also I noticed that his site was always backed up, so I started mines, when the site is back up, I will be a official BVE builder and apart of BVE.w-train.com.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
The B&O Railroad Museum posted a number of very sad photos of the damage to the Mt. Clare roundhouse and the equipment inside on its site. The URL is at:
http://www.borail.org/weather_roundhouse.asp
Click on "new photos." There's also a list of what escaped without damage on the Interchange message board at www.rypn.org.
Frank Hicks
It's a NASCAR event this weekend and has nothing to do with transit.
It should have been Hero 400.
I will be watching it on TV, but it may get rained out =\
Wishing I can go out and get myself a Subway sandwich...
Ah screw NASCAR
Get a TGV Atlantique, a Transrapid 08 set and a Shinkansen and run them around the outside of the oval, hell outside the parking lot. All three would be passing the little rednecks in their "Stock" cars (is there anything stock about those abominations of cars anymore?), DESPITE the fact that they were on the far outside lane.
Round and Round and Round and Round and Round and and Round and Round and Round and Round and Redneck and Round and Redneck and Round amd Round and Round and Round and Round and Round and Round and Round and Round and Round
Wooo, doesn't that sound exciting?
Go get a real motorsport, either WRC or Formula 1, somethign that actually challenges the driver to stay ontop of the track and his car. Plus tell me that any track in Nascar can even compare to the wonder that is the Monte Carlo Grand Prix.
I do watch Formula 1 whenever possible, and those tracks really test a driver's skill.
I wonder if Michael Schumacher and Team Ferrari are going to dominate like they did last year...
And Dobner, it's not nice to stereotype. I've dealt with all the stereotypes and shit for a while but still bothers me once in a while. But the fact 34 races run on ovals does get tiresome (thankfully two races are run on tracks similar to those you'd find in Formula 1 or CART [Infineon Raceway in Sears Pt. and Watkins Glen Intl in Upstate NY])
Also "Stock cars" aren't stock anymore. They are built from scratch and made to look stock. I had to write a 38 pg paper about NASCAR so most of this knowledge comes naturally...
But yes, any Formula 1 car (and a multitude of other fast vehicles) would leave a stock car in the dust.
Back before the Chrystie connection, I suppose the BMT could have done a "Subway 500" by having trains loop Coney Island and then come up the Brighton, Culver, West End or Sea Beacn to DeKalb, and then go Bridge-Tinnel via Nassau St. back to Brooklyn again. Right now, off the top of my head, I can't think of any loop route you could run an actual "Subway 500" on (and Parsons-Archer/Parsons-Archer doesn't count, because there's no connection at the end).
Gentlemen of the board I have a special announcement to make.That special announcement is.... -play's trumpet's- I'm not a girl at all.
I'm really a guy.100% guy.I've been putting up this girl act because I knew girls don't have much say in the transit world so I decided to change that and pretend to be a girl who know's it all and who was a tough,don't take crap from nobody girl.After riding with Trevor tonight I told him I'd drop the girl act on my birthday next month but then I changed my mind.So sorry to have done this but hey,I couldn't resist.Afterall,I'm all for the opposite sex being equal to the male's and all that stuff.It was fun while it lasted.
I didn't even know you were pretending to be a girl. On the internet, it doesn't really matter what you are, nor what you pretend to be.
Still,it was time for me to be "normal" around here.
Please define 'normal' around here -- I am at a loss. And no mentioning of heypaul -- he doesn't count.
Me neither, I didn't really care about gender as long as we had the same passion which is for trains.
>>> On the internet, it doesn't really matter what you are, nor what you pretend to be. <<<
And all this time I thought V Train B47 Bus was a dog! :-)
Tom
LOL..
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I got kinda pissed off when u was trying 2 be a know it all, all da time but oh well, it turns out 2 be a guy or is that what u want us 2 believe???hmmmmmm.........
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
No,I'm really a guy.If you don't believe me then ask Trevor Logan.I've ridden with him on his bus run's 4 times now so he's seen me.And I hate to break it to you,but I was NOT trying to be a know it all.I know how to get around this whole city blindfolded and since I know of someone who works at the TA building in Brooklyn,he tells me the information and I just relay it here when the topic pop's up.
well !!!!! naaaaaaaaaa ok lets talk trains. any news on when they wil be cutting the northbound track in on the Canarsie line and does anyone have any updated pictures of any resent changes? thanks
john
Well I passed by there yesterday before my trip with Trevor and it's almost done.All they have to do is server the current track that goes to Atlantic and finish the remaining few feet that's left at both ends...before Sutter Av and before Bway-Junction.
Hay thanks for the info. sorry to see history disapear before our eyes thanks
john
...Unless you're in it together!
I believe you are Logan's secret lover! You are both in a plan to overthrow Subtalk/Bustalk! You're not fooling me girl!! :)
I don't need anyone to overthrow anyone or anything.I'm a one man army in everything I do.Oh yes,go to nycrail.com and dig up the profile for SubwayFanatic3QV,that's me in NYCrail style! BOOOYAH!!
Hey V Bus, let me correct you if I may and I will. It is not a special announcement at all, just an announcement period. It only becomes a special one when it is "specially announced" that my Sea Beach is back on the Manhattan Bridge. Anything else is just a normal and dull announcement.
No, that would be a 'dedicated announcement'...LOL!
Either way Doug, represent me with the TA and tell them your friend in California is pining for his train to get back on the bridge. With your pull you can bring it off. You do have influence with the TA, right?
Sure -- I was able to get a nifty shopping bag AND a $1.49 pen outta them. ;)
I don't care that you did all this stuff, but I still don't get your reasoning for doing so. It makes no sense.
Maybe V Train B47 Bus is trying to pull a similar stunt that's been played here at SubTalk by another member who rarely posts anymore...
I don't follow.
...if you haven't been here over 2 years then you might not know what I'm alluding to...BUT others know whom I'm talking about...
'nough said.
Would it be an issue if you told me right here. I wouldn't mind getting clued into this.
Yeah, me too! I want to know!
Well, what's taking so long. I'd like to know, as I've waited long enough.
I think I know who you're talking about.
Well since everyone is coming out of the closet, I have to tell you all that I am actualy a girl pretending to be a guy who is pretending to be a girl.
Bless you all,
Louise From Brooklyn
Boobe ... I *knew* you were going to come out of the cab some day. Shall we have a group hug and "coming out" par-tay? Cohibas all around, stop fondling that handle! :)
I'll make sure Andee supplies the 'smokes'....that way we all get to break rule 'G'. :)
Wow ... it's been YEARS. Heh. I'll be RIGHT down. Light dat chit, smoke dat chit, PASS dat chit. Upstate, Cohibas can be gotten in vending machines. It's funny ... when we go back and forth to Canada, the BIG thing is the smoke shops on the border. Heh. Nothing good mind ya, but folks LOVE to get their cohibas before coming home. :)
All right, who's got that electric brake plug?:)
and i wear little red bows in my hair,everyday... except sundays.thats when I wear pick ones....
Heh. Living upstate does make ya go funny ... after all, where else does a "real food coop" have to label EVERYTHING with "CO - OP" so that folks don't think a rooster fight's gonna break out or free eggs? So if them little red bows do it for ya, it'll keep Bubba on the other side of the Hudson (the NYC side) ... heh.
Some of us are actually aliens from outer space pretending to be Subfans who are pretending to be SUV nuts who are pretending to be guys who are pretending to be girls who are pretending to be aliens from outer space...
man it must be the nirtogen/oxygen rich atmosphere on this planet but my head's still spinning from that one...
Unca Selkirk claims "plausible deniability." :)
its called sub-space interferance
There's a whole bunch out here that I'm convinced must be aliens... no way any humans could be that crazy... oh wait a minute, most of them are teenagers... and those that aren't are from California :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give it time ... Rush Limbag and Michael whatsistit will eventually turn everyone into a turnip. And when we get the pods off the truck and put everybody to sleep, the world will be our erster. :)
LOL!
Oy vey!
We're going OT, but do you believe in little green men?
-Stef
Actually, not to be sexist, but do we believe in little green women?
Don't forget about the little green babies!
No, just pink elephants :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh the pink elephants!
That was the station supervisor!
Is this the invasion of the Branfordites & Branfordetes on SubTalk.
Surprised to find me here on a Saturday?
:-) Sparky
Very... didn't expect the boss to grant you such privileges :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Surprised to find me here on a Saturday?
You mean you aren't Orthodox?! ;)
No, I was confirmed, not mitzvahed.
;-) Sparky
Don't worry, he only hinted to his shabbos goy.
There was an agent working at 53/Lex who looked a little green around the edges.
If you don't believe in little green men (or women) check out this website (at least you'll get a good laugh). As long as we're going OT (as well as out of this world), anyone here ever listen to the Art Bell radio program? Art's actually retired for the third or fourth time, but the show continues. Regular topics include discussions of not wheather or not aliens are visiting us from outer space, but from which planet they come from :-)
The show is on WABC 770 on the AM dial(actually the discussion about alien visits make about as much sense as GW's tax cuts for the rich, but that is just my humble opinion) from 1 AM to 5 AM Monday to Friday (actually Tuesday to Saturday when you factor in that 1 AM EST is actually the "next" day. At the end of the day on Friday, you will hear the show, but by that time, it is really Saturday).
Here are some websites if you want a good laugh, the first one is the "official" website of the show. Again, I'm sorry that I do not know how to do active links that you can click on and go to the site directly.
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
http://www.alienufoart.com
Wow ... and I thought RUSH was outta there. :)
Not to mention the fact that Subtalk also features a pig that can read and write.
I hope this pig doesn't go "Hog Wild"!
Nah, he just likes to ham it up now and then.:)
Probably wants to be a congressman so he can bring the pork home.
Rim shot!
No wonder Mr. T was giving you the Eye last time I saw the two of you together...I hope he sent you a valentine! :)
ROTFLMAO!
This is too overwelming for me. Things are not as they seem....
-Stef
Stef -- drastic messages are needed: lock yourself in your booth where it's safe...SAVE YOURSELF from the madness!
That's why I'm always working busy booths. One madness a day is all I can stand!
I guess this is as close as SubTalk will get to classic Shakespearean comedy. Shakespeare had several comedies with men masquerading as women. But of course the women at the time were played by men, so the audiences were entertained by men playing women playing men.
But then Tom Stoppard has had Gwyneth Paltrow playing a woman masquerading as a man in Shakespeare's time to play a man playing a ... oh, never mind!
Now isn't that special? A thousand broken hearts on SubTalk. At least you didn't post it on Valentine's Day.
As of course, I don't even assume that SubTalk posters are hominids, no less worry about gender issues.
It could be worse. He could have posted this on April Fools Day.:)
I was planning to post this on my birthday on March 25 and try and make it dramatic but I said to myself "ah hell let me get it over with already".
Okay, just don't bring back the "Why are there no Women on Subtalk" thread again! ;)
I wasn't the one who started that thread.
Okay, Darlene.
No not Darlene,Ozzy!Ozzy's my name,my name means divine power so... BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!!
I still say this sounds like someone else.
Still don't believe me?Ask Trevor Logan.Hell go to Bustalk and look up one of his post's.He confirmed it.Still won't believe me after that? Go to nycrail.com and dig up the profile for SubwayFanatic3QV,that's me.If you need a 3rd proof for the charm I'll send ya pic's of me in all my magnificant glory!
I'll settle for the pic. Then again you can post anything and say it's you.
I think I found your pic anyhow.
I don't think so.you don't know how I look like in the first place.
I'll make a guess:
Chubby with short red hair and lives in the Albany area.
Got the chubby part right. >.< But I got black hair and I live in good ol NYC!And for the record,I'M A GUY!!
http://www.fof.net/
That's not you in the lower left hand corner?
YEP, that's her.
Peace,
ANDEE
So She's into boardgaming? Sounds cool. I play historical boardgames (don't have enough handy opponents these days...)
THAT'S NOT ME DAMNIT!!!!!!!!! CUT THE F***ING BS ALREADY!!!!!!HOW MANY TIMES I'M GONNA TELL YOU CLOWNS THAT IM A GUY!?!?!?!?!!?
damn,dude!cant you see ther'er picking on you? poking some fun... you know ribbin you... GEEZ RELAX....
Well I don't think they are,and I'm tired of getting picked on!I've dealt with that during my school years and just let it all slide.I'm not letting it slide anymore.
the point is ,they know how uptight you get sometimes.Most people kmow how to push other peoples buttons,and you my friend ,are famous for losing your temper here. So relax and enjoy your stay here,and dont let some of these cats here push those buttons....okay?
Well I don't think they are.Being as there's no way for me to tell if they are just clowning around or not.And I'm tired of getting picked on!I've dealt with that during my school years way way too much and just let it all slide.I'm not letting it slide anymore.
LMAO!!
Probably the same picture I saw...He's really a she pretending to be a she, despite all posturing to the contrary.
Peace,
ANDEE
At first I thought she was someone else. But I was wrong about that. In an adjoining thread I mention a brief disscription of her.
Probably the same picture I saw...He's really a she pretending to be a he, despite all posturing to the contrary.
Peace,
ANDEE
Uhhh,no I'm not.I'm a he!
UH HUH,
Whatever
Peace,
ANDEE
ARRRRGHHH!! Damnit,you and Douce can just go to hell for all I care!
I'm not even gonna bother to argue with ya both!Go ahead and believe whatever the hell you wanna believe!
I'll withhold comment on this for a while.
Looks like I won this arguement.
No you did not win this arguement!It's just a waste of my damn time to even bother to convince you of the truth when it's obvious you're not going to believe me no matter what I say or do.So f*** it,like I said,believe what ya wanna believe,I could care less.
When 2 people argue and one stops, the other person has won.
Douce man, you have standed by your position, I applaud you. Given V Train's big and harsh lashings, it's ohnly evident of a girl doing so. :)
If she is going to state she is actually a he and info I found says otherwise, I'll mention it in here. I don't care if a man or women is in here. As long as the conversation is interesting, I'll stay around and get into it. But she has going too far and there is enough tention in here about female members of this website. I'd use the killfile. But at this time I see no reason to use it. Sometimes she does talk about transit issues and I respect her for that.
I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thread gets deleted.
At first I thought it was a certain former female poster in this room. If it was her however I would have received an e-mail from her by now.
And what info is that?Where did you get this 'info' you're talking about that says I'm a she? I mentioned it before go to nycrail.com and look up the profile for SubwayFanatic3QV.There is the only info about me you need to know.
HEH, yea looks like we struck a nerve.
Peace,
ANDEE
Suuuurrrrrreeeeeeeeee!
Just for the record I am a girl and I do come in here alot just because I dont say much doesnt mean that i dont know anything. I know a lot about Boston have family on the MBTA past and present. Just wanted to let you know that there is a real girl that does come in here
thanks Kathy
Ok you're a girl. I know there are other girls that come in here.
I have no problem with that.
And you've been honest about that (and everything else, AFAIK) from the beginning. It's the ones who try to hide behind false identities, or conveniently change their stories, that none of us can trust.
There are a number of female posters on the board. Some you'd never guess, either... mainly because they have never made any statement that would clearly identify them as to gender. Those I only know because I've either personally met them or have been told who they are by people who have. Of course, there are a couple of posters who have assumed I was female... obviously not anyone who has read very many of my posts or met me, but they made the assumption that my handle was an attempt to hide my gender. But anyone who knows me or has read my posts to any extent is well aware that I am a happily married father of four, grandfather of two, with a face ugly enough to stop even Sparky in his tracks :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
^^^"with a face ugly enough to stop even Sparky in his tracks :-)"^^^
Yes, I will verify that Anon_e_mous is Branford's Hillbilly and is
of the male gender.
BTW, Sunshine Hi to you & Stevie. And if I'm correct, we have met at
some of my annual ventures to Seashore. Not 100% sure though.
As to the poster whom started this post, I must be in "its" KILLFILE,
for I get no responses to my replies. Thank Goodness. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Mouse, you're too harsh on yorself!
--Mark
Mark,
How often to you confront him in the 1st person? If you did as much
as we at Branford, your view may change. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Ozzy and Drix lol...
What is that?
I should have known when you said you hate cops. Girls all love cops! The main thing I miss by retiring is not wearing the blue magnet anymore.
If I really was a girl,I'd be the only one who'd hate them.No offense but cops are a joke.They are supposed to make sure that the law isn't broken and they go on and do it themselves.Also they act so high and mighty just cause they are what they are.They make me sick.
Oh boy, you're really asking for it now. You're entitled to your opinion, but you should avoid making broad generalizations that only serve to cause trouble.
Let the trouble come,I don't give a damn.I ain't a trendy,I do what I want and do what I feel like.The only justice in this city is ME!
That still doesn't give you the right to spread such a stereotype. It's inexcusable. You're hardly what you call yourself when it comes to statements like that.
Darn right I'm entitled to my own opinion!Therefore I can say whatever the hell I want!I'm not backing down from what I said about the cops.If they ever dare come after me,they'll be sorry.I'm a good hearted guy and will do anything to help and save other people,but when I get pissed off,ya better head for the storm shelter's cause when anyone messes with me,they mess with thier lives.I've dealt with way too much BS in my life and I'm not taking it and doing nothing about it anymore.
man o man... relax....its okay.
It's not ok.They're making it sound like it's a big time bad thing to say something like that about cops.Well ok I guess it is,but whatever happened to Freedom Of Speech?If I think cops are a bunch of dip****s then I have the right to say that.
That's a pretty broad statement. Yes, there are a few bad apples in the barrel - I've encountered more than one over my many years on this planet - but as a general statement you're way off base.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a way to generalize/stereotype.
Just like when people talk about the South Bronx, they STILL think of Fort Apache and the burning abandioned apartment buildings.
Yeah, now it's Fort Apache with articulated buses and R-142's speeding by! ;)
Please don't make ridiculous statements like that. It's just as bad as making a neagtive comment about a person's race or ethnicity. Don't do it!
Dude, you have no idea how funny this news is. I once mentioned you to the Newport Mall management because you said it's your favorite mall. As teenage girls are considered to be the prime spending group, they were delighted one was coming all the way from New York to shop there. I guess you would have had to get BX55 to come in your place if they asked you to do an endorsement!!
When did you mention that?I'm delighted you said that.I havn't gone there in a long time,since some time late last year.Maybe I'll go this week,I have thought about it.Newport Center Mall is definantly one of my fave mall's.I've been buying stuff there since 1999.My other 2 fave mall's in the NY/NJ area is Paramus Pk. Mall and of course,Palisades Center Mall.Other fave mall's include Aventura and Miami International Malls in Miami,FL.
It would have been soon after you said it was your favorite mall. Of course if you go infrequently you will always find yet another new building under construction in the vicinity.
I am very sorry I am late for this, but as long as you have a passion for trains and not try to be some TROLL, you are OK with me. You even fooled me (and maybe some other Subtalker/Bustalkers.) with your email address. Hey it's evem more fun when you pretend to be a girl, Flatbush41 and I were talking about you when we went RF'ing the previous Saturday. Keep the postings up, love to hear from everyone
But I still think your namesake subway line sucks!
But I still think your namesake subway line sucks!
Well, I think it's a good routing for transportation, but for railfanning.....it's all underground and rather boring. At least my least favorite route, the R goes through some BMT stations, and myu favorite Manhattan route, the Broadway BMT. The V uses only depressing underground IND stations. But it is a good transportation route
If they routed the V through the Chrystie-Williamsburg Bridge connecting tracks, it would no longer be entirely underground.
Boy do you need a reality check.A HUGE reality check.How many time's are we gonna go through this you V hater,It's doing the job it was made for perfectly!Why does it suck?Cause of it's current routing? Or cause it screwed G rider's? Well,those damn G rider's can rot in hell for all I care.People alway's find something to bitch and moan about and it's usually something stupid like themselves.They gotta cut thier laziness bid and deal with the walk.It's good excercise.Not only that they also have those moving walkway's at Court Sq to use.
But no,I've seen the people there when I've made that transfer,they just walk through the walkway like it's not even there instead of just standing there and letting it carry them forward.
And as I said before,the V routing is sufficient for the job that it was given on it's day of birth:reduce overcrowding on the E&F.
The reasons why I hate the V line from the onset are:
-4 car sets on the G line (good reason)
-Inability to transfer directly to Manhattan-bound Broadway R service.
-Longer waits at 21st st for a train to leave Court Sqaure (rush hours is where it happens.)
-Very ssssssssssllllllllllooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww speed restriction on Manhattan bound E service while the V train is at Queens Plaza and is the next train to leave ahead of the snail pace E.
When the Manny-B opens in 2004, the Q may come to QBL for only the second time in history, the first time was the 9/11 emergency service plan that suspended N and R service. If NYCT does implement this change, BYE, BYE V TRAIN.
4 or 6 car's on the G,it makes no difference,it's still gonna be a crowded train so that's a lame excuse.Secondly,Inability to transfer to Manhattan R trains?Oh you mean the G.Well the G&R run together on weekend's and evening's,that's good enough.People can just transfer for the L at Metro Av/Lorimer St and get off at Union Sq for the R. Those who don't wanna do that are just a bunch of lazy twit's.
Longer waits at 21/Van Alst for a G to leave Court Sq? Say wha? There's another lame reason.Alway's,even before the V,the G ran every 10mins all day long.So waiting time hasn't changed one bit.
And you call going 10-15mph a snail pace? Jeez,be a man and deal with it like everyone else and cut your lameass complaint's.Those get you nowhere in life.And hate to break it to ya,but the V stay's forever!!
Don't like it? Tough luck! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
If the Q does come to Queens Blvd, it could only run in place of the R (that may not be such a bad idea). QB needs to have two 6th Avenue services, one to serve 57th/6th and the other to run through the 53rd St tunnel. But it doesn't need two Broadway services, because 57th/7th is also served by the N and W and there's no Broadway-only station on the 63rd St connection. 57th/6th could be considered a 6th Ave-only station on the 63rd St connection, even though it opened in 1968.
What difference does it make? If the Q is another local, it has the same effect the V had. If it's express, is there even any more room.
"4 car sets on the G line (good reason) "
Not really. And new subway cars are arriving - so your G train will probably be back to at least six cars within two years.
"-Inability to transfer directly to Manhattan-bound Broadway R service."
From the G, you mean. OK. You have a point there.
"Very ssssssssssllllllllllooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww speed restriction on Manhattan bound E service while the V train is at Queens Plaza and is the next train to leave ahead of the snail pace E. "
That was not generally a problem when I was riding (before I left the East Coast). If it's consistent, it's a recent problem, not due to the V train but due to inefficient operational procedures. You might try writing to the TA and describing the problem.
"When the Manny-B opens in 2004, the Q may come to QBL for only the second time in history, the first time was the 9/11 emergency service plan that suspended N and R service. If NYCT does implement this change, BYE, BYE V TRAIN."
I wouldn't count on it. What you want is not favored by a majority of passengers.
The Manny B's return will mean re-extending Sixth Av express services to Brooklyn. As the Bergen interlocking comes back, express service in Brooklyn will improve also.
The Sixth Av corridor will most likely remain the same. The V train's service will outrank the Q in Queens. But anything is possible.
If subway service is interrupted on Sixth Av for any reason, the Q can be extended into Queens on an emergency basis.
I wouldn't count on it. What you want is not favored by a majority of passengers.
The majority of the Strappies' support it! :)
Congratulations on the successful completion of your sex change operation!
--Mark
^^^"the successful completion of your sex change operation!"^^^
You mean it now has an implant instead of a strap on.
:-) Sparky
Ouch! That was really wicked! A Big Fat LOL for you Mr. Dispatcher.
-Stef
Stef,
We have to read the shet from it all the time and now it doesn't know it's gender. ^^^Oh, it's Darlena, the SubTalk Drag Queen^^^. >GG<
;-) Sparky
It wasn't an operation,All I did was splash myself with hot water and poof!presto change-o!I'm a guy!.
Talk about holy water :) :)
--Mark
More like water from a cursed spring.
I wonder if I know what you're referring to... :)
I don't think you do.
Don't be so quick to think that.
Trust me,I know you don't.This cursed spring thing I mentioned comes from a cartoon I watch that I know you have no clue about.Not many would either.
maybe its Ramna 1/2[fell into a cursed spring of lost young girls... if you fall into the spring,you take on the shape of a young girl]I watch anima too!!!
Yup, that's it. Silly Ranma... all the girls want him and Akane is always bitchy at him. His dad's a bear and his mom is AWOL for all we know...
V Train, I know what anime is in general and what I like about it. I obviously know plenty of about it.
hah. See? WE can find fans all over the place.....Ive been watching for years[remember GIGANTOR?]I guess Vtrain is a fan too>>>>>KAMEHAME>>>>>>HA!
Yeah I've been an anime fan since 1998.I currently have 60 tapes in my collection but unfortuantely with DVD's starting to dominate over VHS,that number won't grow much more.And I here I thought I'd have over 200 VHS tapes when it was all set and done.But,time for me to buy the DVD's.
What ever...Darlene.
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
It's Darlena, not Darlene or is it?
8-) Sparky
It was Darlene, according to the address V Train had up.
Well it's not anymore ok!?I have a new email address and....no im not gonna even bother.To hell with those two.
ANDEE,
Looks like we is on "ITS" sh*t list. ROTFLMFAO!!!
SHALOM,
8-) Sparky
Good thing I not step in it. :)
I've been laying low, trying to be a good boy. Since everybody ELSE is noticing those things I've said in the past that irritated some (politics) I can take some joy in stepping back and saying NOTHING. Heh.
But as to the "special announcement" thread, I *knew* there was something not quite right here - even women on "Sliwa beret patrol" do not express themselves the way our friend did. Failed the "kickstand" test a LONG time ago. Women just don't BEHAVE that way.
That all said, I'm loving it. The "whacky stickers" thing died, maybe this will too ... "THIS WAY TO ALL TRAINS ->"
Oink.
Hey, you started it with your deception. So, IMO, you have nothing to say.
Peace,
ANDEE
0.0 Well I can honestly say I'm suprised.And it sure takes a whole lot to suprise me.
I'm happy to hold that honor. ^_^
I knew it. But it really doesn't matter. As long as you're a fan of trains and buses that's all that matters.
Well, I kinda like it! It's rather Shakespearean actually - a guy
playing a girl and fooling everyone. Lots of girls play guys in
Shakespeare and cause some trouble.
My question is...did anyone here have a crush on V Train as a girl,
and are now crushed by this information?
Crushed enough to switch??
(That's the real test) If so, I wonder how V Train feels about that?
This is another Shakespearean dilemna.
An ancient drama plays out on SubTalk.
Giggle!
Well, I wasn't affected... Can I latch on you? I promise I'll be gentle... ;)
Oh, please! Mercy!
The quality of Mercy is not strained;
It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven;
It is twice blest,
It blesseth he that giveth it,
and he that receive.
From "The Merchant of Venice"
by William Shakespeare.
Drama Drama Drama!
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-nyport213140997feb21.story
Not my idea of an informative article.
Other PA officials say it might be summer or fall. Well, fall extends till Dec 21st.
Also no clear mention of whether this is both parts or just Howard Beach.
Sounds like the PA made a press release and the Newsday reporter made no effort to find out the truth or the details.
Remember that the next time you read anything ELSE ... the media (including venerable CBS and the New York Times) has apparently fallen victim to the Stupid bomb. Lazy bomb? Whatever the cause, it's amazing that when you have a clue as to the subject, the media bats worse than the Mets ... apply and discuss. :)
(the media (including venerable CBS and the New York Times) has apparently fallen victim to the Stupid bomb. Lazy bomb?)
My vote is for the lazy/cheap bomb. I find it very sad, especially at the NY Times, which used to be so very careful.
On the other hand, I do know some journalists whose editors still hold them to high standards.
Example: an Albany Times-Union reporter was writing an article (several years ago) about a claim that some Thruway overpasses were deliberately marked with smaller clearances than were in fact true. (That way, a truck driver who thinks he has an inch or two more clearance than he does can still make it through). The editor made the reporter go to a bunch of overpasses and measure them for herself.
Example: WSJ article about executive compensation. For EVERY single statement about any company mentioned in the article, a reporter called the company and said: "We're planning to say this. Do you dispute this in any way?"
Oh, as far as the Albany Times Union goes, I have *NO* complaints! (www.timesunion.com) ... considering that they're a HEARST paper, they're AMAZING as far as accuracy goes, I know the editor and have (as a former journalist) kept a KEEN eye on them. They're EXTRAORDINARY though they DO misspell names every now and then, but FACTUALLY they get it right ... IF they don't grab something off the AP wire and print it. But even THERE, they'll check it and put an "errata" in the paper the next day.
I guess that's just another reason why I'm so picky about "Instant Nooze" from the likes of the cables and the IDIOTS that quote them. The REALITY is that journalism pays *SO* poorly that well ... "you GET what you pay for" ... and CABLE is amazing in how low they'll go to attract the bottom feeders who can make more money bagging groceries, but can't figure the difference between a #6 bag and a #20. "Paper or plastic?" :(
But here we are, DEPENDENT on the media to spoon-feed us truth and they can't get the littlest details straight (or BOTHER to hit a web browser to CHECK whether it was a refinery or a tank farm that just blew up) ...
In my many tirades on the media, let's not forget the *PRIMARY* duty of "the press" ... it's a CHECK AND BALANCE on our Government! The DUTY of the media is impartiality, truth, and ACCURACY.
GOD HELP US! :(
Kevin:
PS: Singular is “erratum”—Latin neuter second declension noun. I expect a correction in tomorrow’s news!
“News” is in the eye of the beholder. Unfortunately, two disturbing trends have merged:
1. Television news priorities are slanted by the availability of videotape—which is why so many auto accidents and fires are news staples, even though intrinsically they are less important than, say, a war in Bunga, Bunga, which threatens destabilization of the world’s ostranium supply, because the news anchor would have to talk for two minutes to a set of file photographs and “we can’t have that.”
2. Sensationalism: every story has global impact, with apocalyptic implications. It’s impossible that a day can go by without earth-shattering news so, if necesary, upgrade some. Case in point, the recent Staten Island fire, which was even reported by BBC World News (local fire has global importance…!!!!)
I long for the days of the “old BBC news”, where the important stories were presented in their order of importance, independent of the images available. Perhaps you still receive something similar from CBC and its cousins!
John
New York State law requires that all overpasses be marked with one foot of wiggle room (unless explicitly stated otherwise, I think). There's a sign proclaiming this in Owego, of all places, at an overpass over NY 96.
I learned that a long time ago during my 20 years with the NYPD. Almost every incident I was part of that made the papers ALWAYS had details such as neighborhood names, addresses, names, make of vehicles, etc, etc, etc WRONG.
>>> Sounds like the PA made a press release and the Newsday reporter made no effort to find out the truth or the details. <<<
Regardless of newspaper reporting in general, it is a bad rap to complain about this article. Not every news story is going to match Woodward & Bernstein's Watergate investigative reporting. The headline was not "Airtrain Will Open on a Certain Date." Here the reporters clearly identified the source of the story, and in no way implied that they believed that would be when the Airtrain opened. They merely relayed the PA's estimate of when the Airtrain would open. They even pointed out that the NSTB investigation is still continuing, and when the NSTB spokesperson said the report should be completed. Readers have to apply a bit of intelligence to reading news reports. This article gave enough information for a reader to judge the liklihood that the Airtrain will open before the Second Avenue Subway.
Tom
I wasn't expecting Woodward and Bernstein.
But I would have liked to know:
- Which PA officials are speaking the official party line, or is it truly everyone to their own opinion there?
- Are they referring to both parts of the Airtrain or only Howard Beach? (Because by the time in question the Jamaica part was supposed to be open too if it hadn't been for the accident, and there's no reason to think the accident investigation will delay the Jamaica part once the cause is known and addressed.)
You heard me correctly! NS is once again proving itself to be Conrail reborn by ditching its current alpha numeric train designation system (like H21J and G54) and instead implementing an Aplha-code system similar to the old Conrail system which was a hold over from the Penn Central.
The system used a 4 aplha code followed by some modifier numbers indication day of travel and section. The first two aplhas are the trains origin and the last two are its destination. For example ALPI was ALlentown to PIttsburgh general freight.
Ok, I'm sure that you are all wondering why you should care. Well, the Conrail/PC system made it easy for ANYONE (yes even older, less mentally adapt railfans ) to know what a particiular train actually was without needing to look it up in some table online. Finally, a Class I railroad doing something RAILFAN FRIENDLY! Someone check hell, it might have frozen over.
Now all we need is for NS to bring back the TV and Mail symbol trains (intermodal). You knew you were Railroadin when it was "TV Time" (TV trains had a 95% on-time rating)
if the ice is setting up below...next thing you know ATK will reinstate The Afternoon Congressional (and all the other great names) junking NE Direct and Acela.
BTW, full implementation will begin in the later quarter of 2003 and continue on into 2004
Thank you for thinking of me in your post, Mike. BTW, it's 'adept'.
1106-1110 were delivered to Fresh Pond Freight Yard Thursday morning with Cars 6806-6810.
Also, 6911-15 and 6941-45 are burn testing for the 5. This could be the final set to enter service on that line.
7046-50 and 7136-40 have each entered service on the 5 (not as one set) in the last week, with other R-142s.
There are a few tidbits on the Redbirds but I'll switch gears and post that separately....
-Stef
and where are they gonna put the rest of them? ( the new sets coming in) and when the hell are the rest of those redbirds gonna be pulle off?
They're off to the 4!
Heh ! I wonder if they (1106-1110) are using the original R-46 number boards !
Bill "Newkirk"
That would be very interesting if they slapped the original R-46 number boards on the 1100 series R-142s. That is if they even have the original R-46 number boards.
#3 West End Jeff
LOL, that would be funny! They usually keep that stuff somewhere, I think they still have the R44/R46 rollsigns in storage somewhere; who knows some of them could be in R68's right now :-0.
That truly would be funny if they still had the original number boards for the R-44/46s. :-)
#3 West End Jeff
HEEHEEHEE :-D! You never know in the MTA, let me tell ya that!
I wonder if any smart alecks in the MTA have squirreled away some R-1/9 number boards? I wouldn't put it past them.
#3 West End Jeff
I have a few dozen brass property tags from the R-4s squirreled away.
wayne
It would be interest to find which pack rat has some R-1/9 number boards.
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry, but the original R44/46 rollsigns are a one piece where the R68/68A are 3 piece.
I wish the number boards from the R27/30's were on the R143's. They'd be back at home!
Stef:
Be very careful about tripping over the car numbers. 7046-7050 was about ready and was being used to test intertrain function with 7161-7165 last week, so they could have entered service as a 5-car set.
If its 7146-7150, they were burning in with 7131-7135. 7131-7135 have been like my sickly Aunt Shirley--it's always somethin' and they likely keep the BBD vendor types running in circles. Not that they need an excuse!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Signal Dolly Work Horses 9018-19 are back home at 239th St Yard tonight. They are currently operating on the Refuse Train with 9182-83, which were recently pulled from passenger service. The Redbirds are currently subbing for ailing R-127s. I'd thought I'd post this as 9018-19 are currently placed on the Signal Dolly and haven't been a regular part of the IRT Roster in many months.... It's the first time I can recall these work motors being placed into the A Division Refuse Train. They have been on the B Division Collector on a few occasions since it operates out of 207th St.
-Stef
Where is everyone!? As I try to unwind from an 8 hour journey, I feel the need to talk. I seem to be alone here at SubTalk for the moment.
#2 Trains are still running through my backyard this hour. Looks like the GO has been put off. The switch work is essentially done, but those switches have to be wired into the tower.
I have no clue if the switch south of Prospect will be done, but I can only assume that it will be redone at some point.
-Stef
"Where is everyone!? "
Sleeping......
i'm up..on duty
Yeah, there's no sign of Da Beastmaster. Is he MIA?
I have no clue. I'm sure I saw him last night on one of his many adventures....
Well Stef, you posted at 4:46AM so there won't be too many people posting at that hour. *Everyone wake up* :0).
Hey, I saw your thread, it has gone off the deep end! Already, posts are being deleted. It really got too far...
Ummm I would like to know what r u talking??
Hehe, one of the posters here, Express M, posted a thread over at the Rider Diaries about the Q vs. V when it comes to service and everything. It got to far, pissing off some of the posters there. He did everything, that Express M...
Yeah, I took a peek there and its NOT a pretty sight :-0! But I think its getting back to normal.....
I was surprised it caused such a huge firestorm.
Well, Mr brain, CPCTC, Acela Express 2005, and Flatbush. Ever since the V set its foot in the system. The NO GOOD KEESTER Gene Russianoff done nothing but bashes the V and the riders. Only this time, He and all his V hater pals must hear what I got to say. Thanks to CPCTC for his idea and assistance and my special ingredient added in that thread. Ms. Gene Russianoff will finally the true light at the end of the Tunnel
Well, Mr brain, CPCTC, Acela Express 2005, and Flatbush. Ever since the V set its foot in the system. The NO GOOD KEESTER Gene Russianoff done nothing but bashes the V and the riders. Only this time, He and all his V hater pals must hear what I got to say. Thanks to CPCTC for his idea and assistance and my special ingredient added in that thread. Ms. Gene Russianoff will finally see the true light at the end of the Tunnel
Ok Why did you put all of our names in the subject line? I just wanted to know what happened.
Well, Certainly I doubt there no others subtalker here will discuss about this issues other than four of us here.
Well I didnt want to discuss it, I just wanted to know what happened, I thought it was on SubTalk.
Nothing serious happened beside sharing my view about the 5th QB line. Its Just that some railfanner doesn't like what I've said on the Riders Dairies. Someone who brought this topic here first few weeks ago want to know about V. Should TA keep it on the system in 2004 when MannyB Return. In response to the thread, I just add my thoughts and CPCTC want know what others in Straphanger Campainge Message board will think about my View. So from there things gettin a bit rusty on Rider Dairies.
My basic point about the Q and V issue is not just to get Gene Russianoff to know my view about the V. But let other know that there shouldn't be any big of deal or difference if you have V or Q running in QB, the bottom line QB line is eventually run by five subway line regardless whether Q or V carry less ridership. So they said V doesn't help reduce the crowd in E and F. Well, if you put Q in the V position. I don't there will be any improvement changes on the Q. Still you have less ridership on the Q.
Well I wish the V Train would just die right now, I want da 6-Car G Train back!
Its not like I surprised when the V shows up. I'm tired of whiner complained about how TA runs Transits System. These guy have been work so hard to improve the entire system and they should be thankful for they have dones
My biggest beaf with the strapahges campaign is that they never offer a ligitamate solution to issues. Just complaints
If you have not already noticed something about riders diaries. Most of the poster are straphanger campaign workers or interns. They basically argue the straphangers campaign party line.
As for switching the Q and V. If the Q can continue to terminate at 57th and 7th that is in the selfish best interest of Q riders
Why?
It is easier to get a seat on the train plus less chance for delays in queens to harm Q service. I won't scream bloody murder ala Gene "does nothing postive for riders" Russianoff.
As for switching the Q and V. If the Q can continue to terminate at 57th and 7th that is in the selfish best interest of Q riders
Why?
It is easier to get a seat on the train plus less chance for delays in queens to harm Q service
Thats a Good point you got there.
Hehe, now what you said is pretty amusing but we saw the differences of the anti V and pro V posters and you were doing a point/counterpoint between the two sides.
I was surprised to see the snow on the tracks, although with the vents in the station I guess it's not surprising. I would have liked to get a shot of the snow falling into the station during the storm.
96th Street Station
I have some pictures of snow on the NB express track at 86th and 96th during the storm, but they're not developed yet. All NB trains were running local, so it had a chance to build up.
How come for a period of time in the 90s the M ran express from Pacific to 36?
To tell you the truth, I have no idea but at that time, N trains didn't run via 4 Av express all day weekdays until 1994 when the M flipped with the N on 4 Av so N's can express and obviously still has the same pattern to this day.
Didn't the B, M and the N run express along Fourth Avenue in 1990-91?
Yes and that made no sense to me :-\ but at the time, R service was more frequent than it is now.
The MTA was stupid - that's why - West Enders were spoiled...in 1993, I actually started a little letter writing campaign that suggested letting the N run express...somebody listened...
I still have the article in the newspaper where snotty Bay Ridgers complained that there might be overcrowding at 45 / 53 St and along 4th Ave...tisk tisk...
Those same Bay Ridgers want the M to go to 95th...
I bet you, the person in charge of the holding lights at 59th St is from Bay Ridge...god knows that N train has to wait during rush hours at 59th for the R to pull up - so that they can stroll over (and I do mean stroll) and take an express train....
I wouldn't expect anything less from them...
First let me tell you about a wonderful service called ProQuest that has the New York Times in pdf files from 1851 to 1999. It is not a free service to individuals, but you can access it free on the computers at the New York Public Library.
I've been using it to look up a number of subjects.
Anyway, I came across this article from the Oct 13, 1895 issue called "The Life of a Motorman". It's really moody.
Here's two excerpts from the article:
"The motorman's conduct is that of a good citizen. He is as industrious as the sun; he is respectful to his superiors. His regard for these is proportional to his conviction that they really are his superiors. Practical workmen reverence knowledge just as they have contempt for sham. Kind treatment is always appreciated and generously rewarded."
"The motorman eats his breakfast and dinner at home; he gets his supper along the line. At one of his triumphal passages by his abode he will slacken the speed. One of his children will run out with a basket, while the others look on enviously. You may be sure the same one won't repeat the operation tomorrow."
The actual article is very long. If you want to read the whole article, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy of it the next time I'm in the library, which will probably be this afternoon.
I was reading it yesterday in the main reading room of the 42nd Street Library, which is a wonderful space.
I wonder how the reporter managed to avoid kissing a shoe paddle. :)
Sent you the usual begging email with "please please please" KNOWING you'll come through with the booty. TIA!
ProQuest is VERY good. A couple of years ago when I had to write research papers in community college, I could go online and search thru dozens of databases like ProQuest and Lexus-Nexus. What used to take days to find can now just take a couple of hours at most.
Paul, its been a long time since I've been to the 42nd St library. The periodicals are now on computer? The last time I was there about 30 yrs ago they were on microfilm. Is there no more mocrofilm? By the way, that's how I found out about Malbone St. I was looking at 1918 papers to read about WWI and found the Malbone Street papers by accident. The paper two days after had an article how they found Luciano drinking in a bar afterwards even though I don't think its true!!
If I killed nearly (or over) 100 people, I can ASSURE you, I'd wanna go on a serious bender too. *MAYBE* it was true. McTavern was about as good as "counseling" went in those days and any beertender could beat the qwap out of the Freudians of the time for "counseling" ... round for the house ... :(
Luciano drinking in a pub? That's probably some kind of misquote or just plain inventive journalism...I've never heard that one before.
It was in the NY Times article the following day. (or the day after)
I was at the library in October of 2001 and they still had microfilm. I looked through the 1967 Daily News issues until I found what I was looking for: information on the baseball scenes in the original Odd Couple film.
Some of the newspapers that I still have in my house:The Newsday issue with the last day of the Myrtle as front page pictures (which I have posted)The LI Press Extra the day JFK was killed. The Press was a morning paper so they put out a special extra that evening.The LI Press the following Sunday (the regular issue, not an extra)A bunch of papers that mentioned me or my picture during my police career, including Jimmy Breslin's column that said I shot the guy who was #1 most wanted after I found him in a car when he killed himself. I couldn't sue Breslin 'cause he didn't mention me by name, kept referring to the cop that found Richardson. But then again, how much money would that drunk have?!!!The Newsday issue when Nixon resigned.The very last Morning Telegragh before it went out of business and the Daily Racing Form took over the East Coast's racing news and past performances. The Racing Form used to be west coast and the Morning Telegragh east coast)The Daily News issue in '67 where my dad was in the Inquiring Photographer. He said they just took his picture and wrote his answer. Never asked him the question!!!Some actual clippings of my day playing basketball at the old garden for Jefferson HS in the mid 30's. (Yes, I'm talking about the same Jefferson that's on Pennsylvania Av and Jews actually played basketball there in the 30's!!!)Some old Yankee yearbooks and scorecards from the 60's Old programs from racetracks in the 60's & 70'sSome assorted papers from the 60's & 70's saved at random (no historical value)
>>> Some actual clippings of my day playing basketball at the old garden for Jefferson HS in the mid 30's <<<
I never realized you were that old. :-)
Tom
A typo. That should have been my "dad", not "day"!
Jeff, When did the LI Press become a morning paper? It was still printed in the afternoon when I left in 1957.
Come to think of it you're right. It was an afternoon paper. I should've known that being I delivered it after school. I guess they just put out an extra for the evening. Between that and my typo "day" instead of "dad" I guess I was really tired last night! I still have 4 months till I hit the big 5-0. Can I be getting senior moments already?
They say that the first thing to go is your ability to organize your time effectively after you retire.
>>> They say that the first thing to go is your ability to organize your time effectively after you retire. <<<
Is that what it was?? People tell me the second thing to go is your memory, and I didn't remember what the first thing was. :-)
Tom
Hi Jeff,
Where is that photo of the last day of Myrtle Ave. Line from Newsday posted? I'd love to see it.
Bklynsubwaybob
It was posted on subtalk but I deleted it a week later. I'll post it again. Unfortunately it is not too good. The paper is very brittle and it was hard to put in the scanner. If you do want to save it save it to your own computer as I'm going to delete it from my angelfire account in about a week. It's too bad this site doesn't allow attachments but I do understand and respect Dave's reasons. Click here to see the front page Newsday pics
Thanks Jeff, much obliged to you for reposting the Newsday article concerning the end of the Myrtle Ave. Line. I lived a half block from the el on Adelphi St., so you can see that it was special to me.
Thanks again.
Bob
Sarge... The New York Times from about 1851 to 1999 has been put into pdf files by a private company ProQuest. What's neat about it is that it is backed by a search engine. The library subscribes to the service, so you can access it at the library.
I think most of the periodicals are either in bound volumes or on microfilm. I've been looking through old issues of Billboard magazine on microfilm to find ads for Skee Ball and Coney Island.
Where were there "motormen" in 1895? Had any of the els and/or surface railways like the Brighton been electrified by then? Or did this refer to streetcar drivers?
Yes, the "motormen" referred to were tram drivers ... I found the article to be rather racist in many overtones, but then I suppose that was those times.
As you come out of the connector (eastbound at 36th street) and you're just about to merge with the express track, there's a dual signal on the ramp with white lights under the regular red-yellow-green. What is their purpose if any?
I *do not think* that is called a lunar white, but I don't know or understand it's purpose fully.
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS I mean *do think* sorry.
Peace,
ANDEE
The lunar white which you refer to is a speed signal, but it is usually on the BMT (B1) division, not on the IND except at terminals. This is a "one-shot" signal that forces the T/O to slow his train before he reaches the signal (here: a home signal). Why it would be here is unclear, since the T/O would not know his lineup before he gt here.
But isn't that redundant? Both signals red would achieve the same result i.e. slow the train down.
It is redundant, I am not even sure why it is there. If you ask me, that is dangerous at a home signal, in case some T/O gets the wrong lineup and does not have enough time to react. What should be there instead is a S/D aspect on the signal prior to the home signal if the home signal is a timer.
There's a big T sign at the signal in approach to that homeball,
plus that approach signal is at yellow since the homeball is
at R/R/W. What's the problem? Pass a yellow signal, be prepared
to stop before next signal!
The contract to connect Newark Penn with Newark Broad via new subway and street level trackage has been awarded. Construction to start this spring.
NJT press release
Thanks! This will be some interesting new "subway" construction. Very exciting!
This is fabulous.
This extension will bring the Newark subway's total length to over six miles and allow it to serve important destinations.
Just curious who will be joining me on the CI Yard Tour.This will be my first field trip of any kind.My g/f is not very happy im going, but she can go visit her friend in Brighton for a bit.
See you guys there.
You should have brought her along! Oh I forget, the ladies are afraid of mechanical stuff... :-0
>>>>Oh I forget, the ladies are afraid of mechanical stuff... <<<
Quite a sexist statement. I happen to personally know an 88 year old woman who would give her right arm to drive a train.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I happen to personally know an 88 year old woman who would give her right arm to drive a train."
Considering the train has a cineston controller !
Bill "Newkirk"
HAHAHA.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here is my idea.
1)Run the "N" train between 57th St & 7th Av to 86th St in Brooklyn all times except late night hours, making express stops in both Manhattan & Brooklyn skipping DeKalb Av at all times. During late nights, run the "N" train as a shuttle as it does today between Pacific St & 86th St making express stops in Brooklyn.
2)Run the "Q" train between Brighton Beach & Ditmars Blvd at all times making local stops in Brooklyn & Manhattan but stopping at 49th St. During late nights, run the "Q" train through the tunnel making all local stops between Brighton Beach & 34th St.
3)Run the "W" train between Ditmars Blvd & Whitehall St making local stops weekdays ONLY.
4)Run the "B" train between Brighton Beach & 145th St (Bedford Park Blvd,rush hours) making express stops between 34th St & Brighton Beach weekdays only.
5)Run the "D" train between 205th St & Coney Island (via West End) at all times making express stops in Manhattan (Bronx in peak peak)& Brooklyn. During late nights & weekends, run the "D" train local in Brooklyn but stopping at DeKalb Av.
6)The "R" train remains unchanged.
Any comments are appreciated on subtalk.
I would extend the express "Q" train to Coney Island. and also run the "N" train to Coney Island once Stillwell Ave. terminal is completed.
#3 West End Jeff
For the most part I like your idea very much as it gets my Sea Beach out of Queens where I think it does not belong. That coming from a former Queensian, there is no prejudice involved in what I say. But you do what others do, however, when you don't stress whether the N goes back on he bridge or not. My friend, any plan you have must spell out completely that the Sea Beach GOES OVER THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE or else everything in your plan comes apart. One other thing. Bull@#$% on 86th Street. When Stillwell Avenue is completed, my train goes there as well. That or no deal.
he said that the n will skip dekalb, therefore it must use the bridge
Yeah, but by the same standard, the precious would end up on SIXTH AVENUE, likely the Bronx. Unca Fred would have a CANARY if his precious was turned into an IND line. :)
Then again ... hmmm. Beats being cut back to a shuttle. Heh. At LEAST it would be on the bridge, even if with the timers they're likely to be tossing up during the contruction phase, the rathole would be ten minutes faster to Manhattan.
Yeah ... THAT's the ticket! Heh. Get that damned SeaBits onto the bridge, it's holding up TRAFFIC!
Thanks for those pearls Kevin; I knew I could depend on you to come through with some choice observations of your own. But the Sea Beach in the Bronx? Heavens to God, what are you thinking. No offense meant to my friend Andee, but I'm sure even he and Stef want no part of the N in that borough. It is a BMT train, THE BMT TRAIN OF ALL BMT TRAINS. However, I'm so desperate to get my Sea Beach on the bridge that I would even acquiesce to having it go up to Yankee country if that is the tradeoff needed to get it done. I hope, though, it can get done without the Bronx. Hell, I want the N even out of Queens. THE SEA BEACH EQUALS BMT------BROOKLYN-MANHATTAN TRANSIT.
Does that mean that the Brighton, the West end, the Culver El, and the Jamaica El are all BRT routes? The legitimate children of the orginal Brooklyn subway provider, as opposed to the bastard child of the mere pretender that followed the BRT's breakup. After all wasn't it the BMT that went in on the Dual Contracts routes into Queens? And isn't the 60th st Tunnel and the Astoria El orignally BMT stuff? I know it isn't IND, and it's debatible if you want to call it part IRT, but the BMT still had a hand in it. Seems to me that the N should feel right at home on the BMT Astoria El to Ditmars.
[J/k] just messin with you man, enjoy the nice 'weather' out there, it sucks on the right
The bastard child of what???????? Come on now, I am going to call a double dribble on your for that. The Sea Beach ain't no bastard, if I can use some slang English to emphasize my point. My train was put into operation on June 22, 1915 and hailed as the new wonder of the new BMT. You can call the others BRT and I have no problem with that. In fact I like the West End, Brighton and Culver. However, when I think of the BMT the Sea Beach comes first to mind because it was hailed as the first real offspring of the BMT. Of course, the R is also BMT but since I have nothing but contempt for that line I will close while I'm still ahead.
The BMT came into being in 1923. When your line opened, it was still part of the BRT. And service was inaugurated by the first BMT standards.
The BMT in 1923? I thought it was sooner. Thanks. I knew about the Standards. I think the Triplexes came in between 1924-1928.
The first pilot Triplexes were delivered in 1925. The rest of them came along in 1927-28.
Yeah, the observation is simply that it MUST stop at DeKalb since if I remember my tracks properly, those bypass tracks at DeKalb ONLY connected to the 6th Avenue side (north) of the Bridge ... then again, you can't send a SeaBits to 6th Avenue through the rathole (unless it ran via Culver) so looks like it'll be a Bronx train - better than ending at 168th. :)
No, access to the two sides of the bridge is operationally symmetric -- the weekday W bypasses DeKalb.
I like to think of DeKalb as a local station on the 4th Avenue line.
Aha ... yeah, just went and looked at the track maps. I guess so. Funny how I didn't remember that. Whoops! :)
There is a wye turnout just north of the old Myrtle Ave. station that is accessible from both the bridge tracks and bypass tracks. This turnout leads to the south side tracks. If a train continues straight ahead on either track, it will cross the bridge on the north side tracks.
R-30--Thanks! I got my stations mixed up; can happen when you're three thousand miles away and don't have the subway map handy. I better bring it out next time. Now the ball is in the TA's court and that's what I'm afraid of.
Hey Fred, did you hear the Veteran's Committee of the Baseball Writers of America is being reorganized? Maybe Gil Hodges will get into the Hall of Fame at last. That would be almost as good as seeing the N zoom along the Broadway express tracks again.
Gil Hodges should have been put into the Hall of Fame long ago. I have been told by a very reliable source that Ted Williams held sway over the Veterans Committee to keep him off because there were already too many Brooklyn Dodgers getting in. Hodges hit 20 or more homers 11 years in a row, drove 100 runs or more seven years in a row and almost did it two other times. He won a World Series as a manager of a team picked to finish next to last in the new division setup in 1969. I also curse the LA Bums for their refusal to retire his number 14. That is as big a crime to me as is his absence from the Hall of Fame.
Let's see - of the Boys of Summer, Campy, Jackie, Pee Wee, and Duke are in the Hall of Fame. You could make a case for Billy Cox as well as Gil.
Billy did not hit enough as a third baseman to warrant such a place. However, he was as good a fielder as Brooks Robinson. He was that great. The problem was he was overshadowed by a host of other great players on that team. One more point is that Cox was a very good clutch hitter.
And I understand he could run, too.
Wonder how fast he'd go up the stairs at Prospect Park (just to keep this thread on topic).
That used to be a hell of a station. There was greenery at the top edges of both sides of the station, and you just knew you were in the neighborhood of something special----a ballpark, a recreational facility. It was just a pleasant experience to have the #1 train stop there out of the tunnel and into God's own sunshine.
Flip the north terminals of the N and Q and the N should stop at 49 St and the Q has to run express in Manhattan since you already have the R and W via local since the Broadway line came back and is booming. Maybe there should be a seasonal express via the Brighton in the summer.
Now we are starting to get somwhere finally. Not a bad idea at all. Take a bow Flatbush 41.
I don't understand the idea. He's saying send the Q to Astoria and end the N at 57?
*Taking a bow*. The northern terminals should be left as the N to Ditmars and the Q to 57 St, its fine that way.
Half the fun of all this is playing around with destinations and routings. Which other rail transit system lets you do that?
(OK, you can do it on the LIRR a little bit. And in Chicago, a little bit.
(Half the fun of all this is playing around with destinations and routings. Which other rail transit system lets you do that?)
You bring up an interesting point.
We all tend to think of NY as being the "biggest" subway system in the world, but by any actual measurement it's not.
It probably is "most complicated" by a long shot, though. What NYC has more than any other system (I bet) is "forks in the road" as you head TOWARD (not away from) the central business district. Many systems have branches as you head away from downtown, of course.
Southbound I count:
E 149th
W 59th
just before Queens Plaza
just after Queens Plaza
5th and 53rd
W 4th
Lex and 63rd (not in use)
Northbound:
W 4th
Dekalb
at west end of Montague tunnel
prior to Boro Hall (IRT)
Jay St (IND)
before Bergen St
Christie connector (not in use)
East New York L-J (either way, not in use)
That's 12 in use, not counting the many opportunities to switch between local and express tracks. Looking at the London map, I see maybe 3.
There are 31 ways to get to Jamaica Center from CI. See here: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/coney-is-to-jamaica-center.html
Errrr! OKAY! I see this plan of your will confuses the heck out of the entire NYC TRANSIT Riders and workers.
How about going for this format:
B West End- Coney Island-145 St or Bedford Pk Blvd. Late nites/weekends to 71-Continental via 63 St
D Brighton Express- Brighton Beach-205 St, weekends via local from Coney Island
Q Brighton Local-Rush Hours Coney Island-71/Continental via Broadway/63 St/Bridge via Express
N Sea Beach-Coney Island-Astoria via Bridge. Late night shuttle Coney Island-36 Street
R Remains same except 24 hour service
M Brighton Local-Coney Island-Metropolitan Ave weekdays
W Whitehall St-Ditmars Blvd all times via Broadway Local
F Culver-Coney Island-179 St via 53 St all times. Queens Blvd local nites and weekends
V Smith-9 St-Jamaica Center via 63 St weekdays
G Church Ave-Court Square all times via Crosstown Local
E Same
Hmm, interesting, but. . .
1) Why W full time? Might as well run the N full length 24/7, just through the tunnel when the W is not running. (Hey Fred, it's better than a shuttle.)
2) There is no Queens Blvd local via 53rd on rush hour/middays, requiring anybody from the Crosstown line to change first to a Queens Blvd Exp then to a local to get to a QB local stop. Keep the F local full time. Turn it at Continental if need be.
3) If you do turn the F at Continental making it a full time local, make the B Queens Blvd Exp. Same with the V.
4) M does not need to enter South Brooklyn at any time besides rush hours. The only reason why it does now is to satisfy Chinatown residents and workers. With both sides open, the M can go back to terminating at Chambers midday.
1) No need for late night express service, let alone additional 4 Ave local service.
2) F train local. Good move.
3) B and V were Queens Blvd Express trains.
4) Need Nassau St presence on the Southern Division.
Even better. E trains run local being it runs a shorter route than F.
If the Sea Beach is on the bridge during the day and rush hours I can grit my teeth at it having to be in that rathole late at night. However, it might give the TA an idea down the road to have a redux of the past 16 years where my train is concerned. At least, though, it will be back where it belongs most of the time by your plan.
Chief financial officer says Airtrain could open in June, other PA officials say summer or fall.
"We'll have [PATH] service to lower Manhattan by the end of the year," said Port Authority construction manager John Spencer. "It's going to be a very busy year."
Newsday article
The article doesn't make it clear, but I would presume that the Airtrain segment which may open this summer or fall is the one connecting the terminals to the Howard Beach station. It looks as if the Jamaica segment is still a ways off.
You would be right, most likely.
Ironically, the How Beach segment is just as long as the Jamaica line, but more complicated where it approaches the term area. BTW the PATH to Lower Manhattan is a relocation, as well as a restoration of service. I don'y know where the transit-to-PATH connections will be put in though...
If anyone has heard of anything, please post.
As an aside, a NY Times reporter asked NYCT whether it was official policy to still call the terminus of the E train "World Trade Center". The NYCT spokesman said yes, WTC was the official name unless or until they were told otherwise by the city and the PA.
I have no info about the PA, but I very much doubt they will rename the PATH station "Hudson Terminal" or "Church St."
Taking a hint from both Newark Airport and a local street, how about
Liberty Terminal?
More than likely, the station's name will coincide with whatever name is given to the parcel or development project.
Well, temporarily at least, I hope it is still called WTC. We should never forget it.
---Brian
Why should they? They never changed the name of Pearl Harbor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, but Pearl Harbor still exists. So does Hiroshima.
WTC does not exist anymore. Only the name remains so far...
Although personally, I'd prefer they keep the WTC name.
Hiroshima was completely destroyed. They rebuilt on the same site with the same name.
Pearl Harbor got trashed rather impressively as well. :)
>>> Pearl Harbor got trashed rather impressively as well. <<<
That is not true at all. The military bases took a beating, but there was virtually no damage to the harbor itself.
Tom
Let me rephrase that then ... the structures and people in them were destroyed largely by a collosal enemy attack and they were subsequently rebuilt. The name remained the same.
Just welcoming myeself to this message board. I've read for a while, but never posted. Thanks!
Welcome to Subtalk BenBierce, hope you enjoy your time here!
Ditto...
Peace,
ANDEE
Salutations!
Take Pride,
Brian
Greetings! Let's talk buses!
Chuck Greene
just remember to keep your dukes up.....and you'll be ok[lol]
Maybe a year or so ago there was an interesting thread with transit-related haiku. I figured it's due time to start more.
Like cows to slaughter
Gathering in the half moons
Farewell, Penn Station.
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao, until
You swipe correctly.
This issue takes flight
But subways are the subject
Stick close to the ground.
To have no Sea Beach
Would be life without meaning
No struggle, no joy
The Tao in nature
Extends far into our past
Arnines on the "E"
California Fred
Thinks the Sea Beach is worthwhile
Looney bin nearby?
Men in bright white coats
Like the snow that fills his ditch
Come to take him home.
Others on this board
Also have this malady
Roommates for poor Fred.
Montague Tunnel
Home to lots of furry rats
No more on the bridge.
Stillwell Terminal
Sea Beach only needs one track
No one rides that line.
Sorry, Fred, you and that line are just too tempting a target... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse posts
Lost glory breeds Fred's sadness
Sea Beach Palace dreams
Second Avenue
When will the trains really run?
When we see pigs fly.
Second Avenue
Who will fly to make it so?
American Pig.
Ev'ry night at Penn
The Baby Elephant Walk
A sorry parade.
At night no service
Two hours between slow trains
Look for whiskey bar
A two-verse haiku from my ex, Mary Beth
Subway skells
Come shamblin' through
Billowing waves of stink
Carryin' coffee cups
Claiming infirmity
Will the coins I give buy 40-oz. Colt 45's?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Here goes:
Concourse line Andee
His Grandfather designed line
Does not want it changed
Peace,
ANDEE
Changes have occurred.
We won't tell you where or why.
D train to Queens.
Changes have occurred.
We won't tell you where or why.
D train to Queens.
Bad meter... here's the fix:
Changes have occurred.
We won't tell you where or why.
D train goes to Queens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either way, AURGGH.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, happy fingers. Also wanted the "where" to be "when" ... ah well. That's what happens when you've got flickering lights from winds in excess of 50 MPH and you hit "post" in a panic before you lose it all.
Ahhh... breezes blowing up your way too, I take it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Marone! They'll be down YOUR way real soon too. Impressive ...
Well, I've already lost one large limb this afternoon... missed the 'chero by about three feet. Not that it would have done much damage, as rotten as it was, but still, the thought pains me. (Not as much as it pained Jr., who I sent out to drag it to the curb... you'd think I was asking him to move the entire tree.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, know the feeling - this winter's done TREMENDOUS damage to our forest up here, there's STILL two trees up on the roof of the house, but it's so buried in the 24 inches of ice, won't be until MAY at this point before I can get them down. Snow's still up to my belly out there so I can wait. (I *have* to) ... but you know it's a bad winter when you lose a PAYLOADER out there and it took them a week to find it. Heh.
Oh ... I owe a Haiku since this drifted off topic ...
First snow, then silence.
This open cut subway dies
so beautifully.
Just got back from a quick jaunt over to Fresh Pond.
Turns out 6806-6810 were being offloaded from their flats when I got there.
Up on Freemont I caught site of M-7s and MORE R-142s awaiting delivery into FP...M-7 pairs are 7039 & 40; 7051 & 52. The R-142s on flats behind them were 7156-7160. The consists were sitting behind a set of CP locos all coupled in a row.
Yes...I took pictures :)
1106-1110 should already be in the system! Thanks for the update!
-Stef
You are on da money as always, Stef!
Thank You, Thank You! 6806-10 will be in the system by nightfall.
-Stef
Just for you mainline freaks I thought I'd add that CP Rail EMD SD45-2 engines #5697 & 5698 were on the front of the consist that inlcluded the four LIRR M-7s and the 5 car set of 142s.
CP Rocks! Have you tried Kicking Horse Pass for MSTS?
I'm taking lunch! Gotta run....
-Stef
So you DO have a laptop! Sneaky devil! ;)
Tricky, tricky. The answer to come after 12....
BMTman wanted to know if I was posting from the booth - no. No laptops here!
I was posting from home. I was close to home today , I had time to eat lunch in my house before going back to work. Heck, I had time to see what was going on at SubTalk...
-Stef
Split second timing!!!! They just passed me on the way up.
-Stef
Look at you -- getting paid for your railfanning duties... some guys have all the luck! :)
I just got lucky today....
-Stef
Kicking Horse Pass??? Is this someplace local?
KHP is a route for MSTS, based on CP's freight operations in Canada. Way too cool! SD40-2s anyone?
-Stef
Tonight a new car shipment went up to E 180 from Linden at about 8PM.
6806-10.
-Stef
"6806-10.
-Stef"
Does anyone know why this trainset is so late ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The set had modifications done which held it at the plant.
BBD doesn't send the cars in any particular order. Whatever they determine as finished comes down from the factory.
-Stef
You probably saw the set same reported heading uptown by Stef earlier...6806-10 (and photographed by me at Fresh Pond in the a.m.).
Where are the pictures?!?
Inquiring minds want to know.
-Stef
Gotta download 'em to the computer tomorrow. Too late right now..planning to head off to bed shortly...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZsssssssssss. We'll see you in the morning!!!
-Stef
Possibly. Unfortunately I didn't have the luxury of seeing them as I was at Livonia tower letting them out of Linden Friday evening.
Friday evening would have been the 1100 series.
-Stef
Ok, well, no matter how many times I've been there I always managed to get lost at Canal/B'way. So yesturday I enter at Canal/Centre and go down to the Q platform, convinced I'm in the right spot (screw the signs!) to head uptown. In comes a slant and he makes his announcements, crap I'm on the Brooklyn-bound side. A slant. And at this point I'll just make it to work with 10 minutes to spare. Screw that I say, and hop on the slant, and grab the railfan window. Over the bridge we go... weeeeeeeeee.
This is just a to say "You know you have a problem when you say 'screw getting to work on time' in order to ride a Slant over the Bridge." :)
And I still got to work no more than 5 minutes late. :)
I've gotten canned for THREE. Heh. And no foamer glass, the #@%^&!@ train just laid down. I ENVY you! :)
The beauty of towers... you can't work anywhere where you haven't posted, so I was posting, and the TW/O I was working with (worked with him before) was real cool about it.
You *DOG* you! :)
Wow, shows how fast the Q is :-). See, the sport of railfanning just draws you into it even when you want to resist.
I think you had a valid reason to be late anyway. No. 2,3 service was suspended between Chambers St and Atlantic Ave from 15:00 to at least 18:00. That was because of a police action at Wall St.
I'm close to a yellow-dog Democrat, but maybe, just maybe, I'll give Bush a 2nd term if he continues being nice to New York, and NYC in particular. The Republicans actually are working out a strategy to win NY state in the 2004 election. It's possible, but lots and lots of good old fashioned pork needs to be sent up to the city.
Right now, of course, there is a war brewing and the deficit is monstrous. Be that as it may, if the President and those NYC-hating Republicans in Congress need to start shipping money up here -- to build the 2nd Av, to rebuild the Gowanus as a tunnel, to build the lower Brooklyn cross harbor tunnel, the E side connection into Grand Central, etc. (you know all the transit projects that really do need doing).
So. We all need to inform Republicans (e.g., Pataki) about the facts of life. If Bush wants to carry NY in the '04 election, it's gonna cost them BIG, and it can't be vague promises, but something graven in stone, something like the TVA in its early days when it could write checks against the treasury without Congressional approval.
$50 billion over the next 15 years does not seem unreasonable.
As an ardent and passionate Republican we are in the same boat on this one. New York City is the showplace of the United States, the greatest city in the world. It needs help badly and I hope Bush will do the right thing and have a "New Deal", if I can use that phrase since I was once a Democrat, for the city. One good thing is the Republican Convention is coming to New York for the first time, and regardless of what you might have heard, when it comes to personal money they are much bigger spenders than the Democrats, who seem to make every quarter scream. That is a good start. As far as the things you suggested, why yes. It is very reasonable. Perhaps you can talk to one of your GOP reps, or write him. In a Democrat state like New York, Republicans are usually willing to listen to the other side in hopes of winning some converts. It worked to Rudy twice, and George P three times.
.
We all want to spend gigabucks on the subways. Where do you think the billions are going to come from?
If Dubya wants a 2nd term -- and carrying NY state would probably ensure one, the only way to do it is make NYC very happy indeed.
For us, happiness is a 2nd Av subway.
If dubya wants a second term (which he will get, 9/11 and his "Lets go kill some kiddies in Iraq" will see to that), he needs to carry much more than just NY. NY has 33 Electoral Votes, California has 54, nearly 1/5th what is needed to be elected (270, BTW). Bush doesn't have to give NY jack squat, all he has to do is make it look like he's doing NY good, or not doing it harm, then remind everyone of 9/11 and the evils of Saddam, and BAM he's back in the white house faster than you can say, "That's my BUSH!"
Besides, he can get all the electoral votes he needs from California (the only one that seems to be up in the air), Florida (which his brother will no doubt ensure once again), and Texas (well, DUHHH), plus the usual republican hold outs in the bible belt and deep south. No need to go as far as funding all that stuff, no SAS, no ESA, no Gowanus Expressway, No Penn-GCT connection, (wow, whats that? 4 Big digs? No, you Neu Yahkers aren't greedy at all!). Just demonstrate to California how they will benefit from greater deficits, lower taxes and his new and improved (developed by genuine Enron planners) energy policy, and he's in.
But subwaysurf is right, this topic is mostly off topic.
>>> then remind everyone of 9/11 and the evils of Saddam, and BAM he's back in the white house faster than you can say, "That's my BUSH!" <<<
You mean just like Daddy did it after being the hero of the Gulf War? And that war didn't have millions of protestors before it began. He certainly will not want to mention 9/11, if each time he does, Osama sends another taped message.
Tom
Hey, notice that bush didn't just barge into war as he could, and possibly should have. Instead he's hung around waiting for the UN to finish it's stuff. Now either he really wants to be Mr. Knight-in-Shining-Armor or he's stalling so that the war will be over just as the elections are coming up and he's riding the post-war high, like daddy did before harsh economic reality come up and bit him in the ass. Probably both, he wants to 'Save the world' from a man whom practically every one had forgotten about, he can't save us from Osama, cause he can't find him, so he goes after the first target that doesn't move.
He's completely sacificed strategic surprise so that he can still come out looking like the good guy, AND have the war end at a convienient time. Saddam isn't an Idiot, the reason that nobody's found the chemical weapons is that they're now sitting out in the desert in pressurized containers as booby traps for whatever group should be so unfortunate as to march past them.
We've forgone a quick decisive strike basically allowed to us by the terms of the cease-fire for a more policically beneficial (least to a certain president) drawn out war dependent upon superiority of numbers. We're going to fight Iraq on a war of attrition, damn am I glad I'm not stuck out there in the Saudi Desert. I don't care how advanced our weapons are, it's still going to come down to grunt vs grunt, and I would not want to be the first into Baghdad, let alone Basra.
We will win, there is no doubt about that, it's just how many teenage bodies are left in the Iraqi desert that matters. In Desert Storm I we sent over 50,000 too many body bags, I'd be willing to bet this time we send too few.
Dob, you might be surprised about that and very wrong. Why do you think the Republicans are coming to New York in the first place? They believe they actually have a better chance of getting New York than California. Here's why. In New York City, a town where the Dems outnumber the GOP 5-1, they have elected Republican mayors three straight elections. The NY Governor has won three straight. New Yorkers will vote for Republicans who expand their base with moderate stands on the issues. In California they are still pissed off with what the elder Bush did in shining on the state in 1992, and Prop 87 alienated others. Of course, if the Democrats run our state into the ground as they are currently doing, Bush might have a chance to get both states. Here is a surprise for you. I really believe that Bush likes New York better than California, and would rather carry it because even if he loses my state he would probably carry other states he lost in 2000 if he can carry New York. Walla! He then gets a second term, gives New York the goodies he might have given California and you guys are happy.
Fred,
Please find me a “Republican Presidential candidate with moderate stands on the issues” and I think New York would be happy to vote for him. Unfortunately, the one the Republican Party is likely to present has views to the right of Ghengis Khan.
Still extracting the maximum moolah is still the name of the game!
WDobner gets my point. The Dems will indeed probably pick up CA's 50+ electoral votes in 04. But NY's 30+ electoral votes could go to Bush, provided he is very good at the care and feeding of NY voters -- particularly NYC voters. If a Republican is to win statewide in NY state, s/he has to pick up some otherwise hardcore Dem support.
Clinton understood this vis-a-vis CA. Lots and lots of pork went to California. For CA Republicans, the Pete Wilson debacle still leaves a very bitter taste in the mouths of Hispanics, who consequently vote almost en bloc Democratic. Columba (Mrs. Jeb) Bush is persona non gratia among California conservatives, and has stayed under the radar. Bush understands all this too, but still needs Hispanic votes; the intensity of bitterness felt by Hispanics in CA has not spread elsewhere to any large degree, particularly in NY. Having Columba, thick Spanish accent and all, campaign in the Nuevojorqueño neighborhoods could have a remarkable effect.
But for Bush to win re-election, carrying NY is quite possible, but only if billions and billions pf pork flow into the state -- and into NYC particularly -- notwithstanding the recession, war, and deficit.
If we are to get the gigabucks necessary for transit projects, this is about the only way it's gonna happen.
But for Bush to win re-election, carrying NY is quite possible, but only if billions and billions pf pork flow into the state -- and into NYC particularly -- notwithstanding the recession, war, and deficit.
If we are to get the gigabucks necessary for transit projects, this is about the only way it's gonna happen.
Which brings up a moral issue. Okay, so vast amounts of federal money pour into New York in order to help Bush's re-election bid. Money for Second Avenue, East Side Access, various Downtown plans, and so on. While that's terrific from New York's perspective, given the fact that the pool of transit-funding money is not unlimited it also means that other parts of the country, places that aren't expected to be competitive in the election, get less funding. For instance, funding for the Denver light rail might be reduced because Bush is certain to carry Colorado no matter what. Is this really fair? Consider also that the mainly Sunbelt states that may see their transit funding reduced are places where the federal money, if provided, would have been put to good use; New York, in contrast, may simply repeat history and piddle away the funding.
New York, in contrast, may simply repeat history and piddle away the funding.
Agreed. I keep harping on a TVA style method of funding. Actually, something like the TVA for the greater NYC area (all 25 million people) would make sense. Bean counters with baseball bats aimed at the MTA, NJT, etc.
Any funding earmarked for the 2nd ave subway is going to simply disappear down the drain. The 2nd ave subway is never going to get built; at least not within the next 100 years.
They can't even decide what to put in place of the world trade center. If they can't get their act together and start building down there -- which is really a no-brainer as far as the usual political obstacles go (funding, NIMBYs, etc...) -- there's absolutely no hope of doing anything on the east side.
The comparative distance between the projected subway stops on 2nd avenue means that only handful of places on the upper east siders will get any actual benefit from the new subway line.
You want to tell me that all of upper east side is going to sit back while they tear up 2nd avenue, for a couple of years, wreaking havoc on everyone for the benefit of the few who live within a few blocks of the handful of new subway stations?
Unless you live close to a stop on the new subway line you are certainly going to strongly oppose piddling away more money than the gross national product of many third-world countries on a subway line than you'll never use. The nimbys will never let the 2nd ave line be built.
"The nimbys will never let the 2nd ave line be built."
The nimbys didn't let the 42nd St Light Rail Line be built, while other cities have done or will do the same.
Bill "Newkirk"
When you complain that New York always votes Democratic and thus gets screwed by both parties, that's not a problem, but when another state votes for one party and gets screwed, that's a "moral issue."
Mark, this one is for you and any others. As far as I know there are no subways on first, second, third, or fourth avenues in Manhattan, nor any on ninth, tenth and 11th. I can understand the latter, but have never understood why they weren't put on the first four avenues back when. As far as the 2nd Avenue Subway, why Second Avenue? And where would such a line go from one terminal to another? I have never heard of that plan. I'd like to be informed by you or someone else on this.
>>> As far as the 2nd Avenue Subway, why Second Avenue? And where would such a line go from one terminal to another? I have never heard of that plan. I'd like to be informed by you or someone else on this. <<<
ROTFLMAO.
Tom
When you're finished ROTFLYAO you might tell me what were the potential terminals for such a train. I heard of many but nothing concrete. Good you were able to get a good guffaw at my expense but let's see you put your money where your mouth is and answer my question----if you can.
Psssst ... I'll be NICE to you for a change. Heh. Here's the skinny:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/
first, second, third, or fourth avenues in Manhattan
There is a subway under nearly every inch of 4th Avenue, both now in its shortened state and in 1904, when it housed the first subway and there was no Park Avenue South.
and... This is on topic...how?
Peace,
ANDEE
Since the funding for transit infrastructure requires not just $$$, but $,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.¢¢, and the only place we’re going to get it (if we’re extraordinarily lucky) is the Federal Government, then discussion of the bribery/blackmail process that is intrinsic in politics is definitely on topic!
John
[Be that as it may, if the President and those NYC-hating Republicans in Congress need to start shipping money up here...]
1. Shipping money TO New York defeats the purpose of keeping us as the nations's cash cow. Money is supposed to flow FROM New York for projects like an electric Grand Canyon Railroad.
2. Why should we re-elect a president who promises us recovery aid, only to tell us to "Drop Dead" (again!) when we dare ask where the check is.
3. Why should we re-elect a President who consciously allowed us to be attacked in the first place, solely to justify a later war with the wrong enemy? It's already public knowledge that the FBI had half the information far in advance of the attack, AND that the CIA had the other half far in advance of the attack. BOTH report to the President. Conclusion: Bush knew everything before September 2001, and deliberately chose not to prevent it. Period. (Then again, maybe it was to punish us for voting for both Hillary Clinton and Al Gore.)
"3. Why should we re-elect a President who consciously allowed us to be attacked in the first place, solely to justify a later war with the wrong enemy? It's already public knowledge that the FBI had half the information far in advance of the attack, AND that the CIA had the other half far in advance of the attack. BOTH report to the President. Conclusion: Bush knew everything before September 2001, and deliberately chose not to prevent it. Period. (Then again, maybe it was to punish us for voting for both Hillary Clinton and Al Gore.)"
Boy, you armchair soldiers and diplomats crack me up. I would love to see some of you guys actually sitting there with the responsibility of making the right choices hanging on YOUR necks.
And have to deal with the peck-peck-pecking of the "experts".
Conclusion: You're off your rocker.
My original post insisted the promises be graven in stone, a la the funding process for the early years of the Tennessee Valley Authority.
NYCers are worse that the 'Show Me Staters' from MO. We want it in writing, drawn up by the sharkiest-of-the shark high-priced Dem-lawyers.
Well, we DID have all those armchair experts spouting for eight years during the previous administration, spotting black helicopters, yammering at Rush even though he wasn't listening to them. I'm going to make no comments on a political basis here, but geesh. If folks had to listen to all those whiny right wingers, how come turnabout isn't fair play when the boot's on the other foot? :(
Come to the middle of the road where NOBODY listens. :)
Hey N Man, there might be a reason for his problem. He's been riding the bus too long and it has jangled his brains. What he fails to tell you is that Clinton did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN REGARD TO TERROR THREATS AND WAS SLEEPING AT THE SWITCH FOR THE BETTER PART OF HIS PRESIDENCY. THE '93 BOMBING ATTEMPT AT THE WTC DID NOTHING TO GET HIS PANTS BACK ON AND FACE THE PROBLEM. And when Osama was almost handed to him on a silver platter back in '98 he demurred there, but the Bus doesn't want to hear that either.
Since "snopes.com" has become Subtalk's OFFICIAL "rumor-smasher" and accredited clearer of urban legend and gasbaggery, might want to check this out, seems everything you've been told there is a LIE ...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm
Even in X-Files, "the truth is out there." :)
The Washington Post? The New York Times? Come on, Selkirk, I appreciate your attempts to help out, but relying on those two liberal rags to ferret out Clinton and his motives is like allowing the fox to protect the chicken coop.
OTOH, your source for the Second Avenue Subway was very helpful. Thanks. Keep in touch.
Must be the Bilderbergs in black helicopters ... OK ... try this one then, links to other places. But then again, gotta watch out for ANY extremist's ministries of truth ...
http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/2002/Clinton_and_Terrorism.html
But in all sincerity, you're being spoonfed a pack of lies ... the SAS project also appeared in the Times (a paper that I've wiped the floor with here if you've noticed) ...
I know you don't like the Times. You have made that clear several times on Subtalk. I will always believe that Clinton could have done so much more in so many more areas had he been willing to take a chance and go for broke. He went kicking and screaming into signing the Welfare Reform Act in 1996, but absolutely nothing in the areas of Medicare, Social Security Reform, or Tax Cuts. He was always at the margins on big issues, relying on polls to tell him what he should do. The man has brains and talent. He could have done so much more but chose not to risk his popularity.
Well, it's the other guy's turn now to show what he can do. Shoulda, woulda coulda, we're living in the present now, and we've got sniffer dogs sniffing that present. :)
Fact remains though, that whole "did nothing" thing was pure BS. We could certainly say the same thing here since I have yet to see Usama's head on a stick as promised.
I'll give Bush a 2nd term if he continues being nice to New York, and NYC in particular.
Nice to NYC? Why does he take 2 weeks to come to NY after the 9/11 attack?
Bush has not been all that nice to NYC. Take a look at all the executive orders that he has been pushing through which are terrible for NYC
As for 9/11. Bush came to NYC at a prudent time. The presidents saftey in the time of uncertanty is far more important then making a symbolic appearence
As for the $20 billion promised. Most of that money came with so many strings attached that shumer has been fighting for NYC to be able to use the funds. In addition bush has let NYC shouldering the cost of all the extra securities measures being put in place by the NYPD. Very little money is coming out way under the new homeland security department even though NYPD and FDNY are preforming many of the duties in this area. There has been periodic article about this in the NY Times.
>>> Very little money is coming out way under the new homeland security department even though NYPD and FDNY are preforming many of the duties in this area. <<<
NYC is not alone in that regard. Homeland Security has been nothing but talk from Washington. All big cities are shouldering the increased costs of security with absolutely no financial assistance from the federal government. This is true even though one of the mandates for the federal government is to provide for the common defense of the states from foreign attacks.
Even the smallpox vaccinations of health workers puts the risk on the individuals. Although there is a known risk in taking the vaccinations, and the only reason for taking the vaccinations at the present time is to be prepared in case of an attack, there is absolutely no plan to provide compensation for anyone injured or killed by the vaccinations.
Tom
"Even the smallpox vaccinations of health workers puts the risk on the individuals. Although there is a known risk in taking the vaccinations, and the only reason for taking the vaccinations at the present time is to be prepared in case of an attack, there is absolutely no plan to provide compensation for anyone injured or killed by the vaccinations. "
There has been talk, but you're right, nothing that would be concrete. Many workman's comp insurance carriers won't cover it.
If you look at publicly available data from before 1972, when the cowpox inoculation was last given in the US (you're giving yourself cowpox disease, which allows you to protect against smallpox), the risk of a complication serious enough to visit the hospital was about 1 in 20,000 or so; a more serious complication, maybe 1:50,000 to 1 in 100,000, and the risk of death 1:500,000 to 1:1 million. Since smallpox killed up to 30% of its victims, this was a very good trade-off.
Today the smallpox risk is a lot murkier, while the quantifiable risk of cowpox inoculation complications is about the same (though hospital and ICU care has gotten much better over the last 30 years).
What Bush need to do to make this country better is to
1. Stop nosing around other countries business.
2. Stop posing war with Saddam and start finding alternative/solution to improve the economy.
IF bush can step up to the plate for funding for half of those projects I would have to through my support for him. So far he has done very little for NYC. Bush paid back the farm belt as soon as he took office. Let's see him step up for NY
My general philosophy is republican at the local level and democratic or independent on the federal level
The democrats on the local level have turned this cities govenment into a big inffective mess. On the natioal level the republican party is panders to the christain south with thier pie in the sky anti-abortion, pro wepons NRA crap which is fine and dandy in a utopian society.
Bush had made a hard turn lefwards since getting elected. Since he does not have to pay attention to the redneck vote to obtain re-nomination, and since the last election was so close, he needs to pick up more centrist/liberal support. Gigabucks for NY-NYC would do the trick.
But yes, the Feds have been shameful in making state and local authorities shoulder the costs of increasing security. Copngressional Dems and Reps alike are all passionately in love with 'unfunded mandates'.
The Nostrand Av station on Fulton St is strange, with the express tracks on the upper level, the local tracks on the lower. The notes on this station elsewhere at this site indicate that no one really knows why it was built this way, tho' I have my my own theories.
What I want to know is exactly from where to where the station runs, in relationship to Fulton St. I suspect it starts just west of Marcy running towards Bedford.
I suspect they were trying to steal the Clark St tunnels from the IRT. Everything from Utica Av on Fulton would go express. Then, they would run a line down Kingston, with a new north-south local station just south of Fulton St, cutting into the local tracks (destroying the then-and-still current Kingston-Throop station) on the lower level. This line would have turned east under E Pkway, which would have been upgraded to IND standards. These trains, then, would have made all local stops to Court St., then north into a cut into the Clark tunnels. The Brooklyn IRT would have been reduced to two thru tracks, with a shuttle from Nostrand to BH.
And if my suspicions about the Nostrand/Fulton station being just west of Marcy Av, then a connection northwards into the S 4th St station was also probably envisioned.
Comments?
Mind blowing information. Give me a while to process it all.
To be totally honest, I don't think Nostrand Avenue on the A line was originally meant to be an express stop.
Ralph and Lafayette Avenues seem to be what Nostrand Avenue would look like as a local station. The upper level of Nostrand could pass as the mezzanine at Ralph or Lafayette. I believe somewhere down the line, it was decided to make Nostrand an express/local station.
Just an observation and my opinion.
Fulton street wasn't wide enough for a two side by side platforms at that location,and there were plans for a subway under Bedford ave,WHICH surly could handle a four track line....
Exactly my point in a similar thread some months ago. I stated that the property easements along Fulton at that point didn't allow for four tracks side-by-side. Fulton street properties are set back further from the street as you go east (and west) of Nostrand Avenue.
I believe that's the explanation.
Yes, I'll concur with the BMTman, having just traversed Fulton Street
on the surface yesterday on a Northbound B-44. The easement between
New York Avenue and Bedford Avenue is very narrow. Without the
obstacles of snow mounds etc, how parking at both curbs is allowed
is questionable. But then again there are more Buses moving westbound
on Fulton than eastbound, as the B-44 Northbound adds to the traffic.
Fulton Street East & West of Nostrand is like trying to manipulate
on Manhattan Avenue in Greenpoint between Driggs & Greenpoint Avenues. Very narrow.
;-) Sparky
John, see one of my recent responses to BMT Road Dogg...I have second thoughts about my explanation. I might have to ride the A train to Nostrand one day after work this week to analyze things abit more...No I will NOT be bringing a tape measure with me :) ...might bring the digicam though...
Doug,
Remember when the Fulton Street Line was built at this location and
look at the vintage of the buildings on Fulton Street above it.
IMO, could have to do with underpinning the buildings, which are
past the century mark now. And you also had to support the weight
of the Fulton Street [BMT] elevated, which IIRC was rebuilt in that
area to support the weight of steel subway cars.
;-) Sparky
I don't necessarily agree. If that were the case the case in deciding how a system runs, then how do you explain Eastern Parkway? Eastern Parkway could very easily accomodate a four track system for the IRT; yet it has an upper and lower level. There are no property restrictions that would have limited two side by side platforms at Utica Avenue; yet northbound trains run on the lower level and southbound trains run on the upper level.
Similarly, Fulton Street isn't that much wider at Utica Avenue than it is at Nostrand Avenue. I still think that it wasn't originally planned to be an express station. As I said, it probably would have looked like Ralph or Lafayette.
at Utica avenue,the staion is underthe sidwalks also...and much deeper than the other stops along the route.the street is rather strait,but the station is curved,most likely to acommadate the Utica ave subway's station on the upper level comming in from Styvesent ave.And,yes..Fulton street is slightly wider at Utica NOW[due to the rebuilding some years ago,also they were given easments along this paticular segment]TheIRT under Eastern Pky was most likely a choice of the contractor and designers.The street is wide enought for 4 tracks,along with 2 secondary roads.
Thats right. At the corner of Utica the staircase on the N/S is really set back on the sidewalk towards the stores there, it is about 40-50ft N/O the curb. On the S/S there is a staircase on the side of Boys and Girls HS which is also set back. At Nostrand the stores are right up on the sidewalk and I assume their basements are too. If someone is in the area maybe they could check to see if there are those basement metal doors on the sidewalk there. By the way, I'm pretty sure that's the same reason the stations on Lexington Av are two levels.
Possibly, but then why is the lower level only wide enough for two tracks and two platforms?
I'm not sure I fully understand your question.
If you built a wall along the the local tracks at Ralph Avenue sealing in the space for express tracks and went up the stairs, stopped and looked at the distance between the stairs for the north and southbound, you'd see that the station takes the form of Nostrand Avenue; that space is wide enough for express tracks to be built there. It's the same with Lafayette Avenue. Those three stations have the same layout.
I thought the two local tracks at Nostrand were adjacent. You're telling me that there's space between them for the two tracks that ended up being moved upstairs?
Yes. The two local tracks are not next to each other. There is a wall that separates them and on that wall is where the express tracks are.
Visit the Nostrand Avenue station and look at the layout. The four tracks approach Nostrand Avenue side by side. The express tracks ascend and the local tracks descend. When the leaving the station, the express tracks decend and the local tracks ascend to make a four track system side by side once again.
Admittedly, it is a very unusual layout.
Right...almost like the express station was an afterthought.
Personally I think when the station was being built Nostrand was going to be a local stop. After construction was started, someone realized that Nostrand was supposed to be an express stop. By that point it was too far along to rebuild the route for 2 island platforms. So the upper and lower levels were built. I noticed one day that the local tracks at the station at Nostrand are along side the express tracks. So maybe It was not a matter of Fulton St being wide enough.
Something like that happened on the Canarsie line IIRC. South of Montrose Ave a tunnel was started before someone realised the next stop was Morgan Ave. And there was something about a station or a platform built for the propsed connection from the IRT to the 4th Ave line before the BRT was awarded the line.
Something like that happened on the Canarsie line IIRC. South of Montrose Ave a tunnel was started before someone realised the next stop was Morgan Ave.
Yup, well actually in this case, the line was built to Montrose Ave (which was the terminal for a few years), and the part from Morgan Avenue Eastward was supposed to be an elevated line. Early form NIMBY's didn't want an elevated, and the plan was changed to subway. On a sidenote, the express track on the M line between Wyckoff and Central Avenue was built with this elevated Canarsie line in mind. The Myrtle-Wyckoff el station on the M would have been the joining point of the Canarsie and Myrtle lines, probably similar to the way the J and M meet at Myrtle, and the way the Myrtle El crossed over the Broadway El. There probably would have been a track connection there also between the two lines, similar to the way some trains from Metro Ave switched to Broadway, and some went to Downtown Brooklyn.
And there was something about a station or a platform built for the propsed connection from the IRT to the 4th Ave line before the BRT was awarded the line.
I believe the abandoned lower level at Nevins Street on the IRT was supposed to have something to so with this connection to the 4th ave line when it may have been the IRT's route.
Very true. There were a number of plans for the Canarsie line, using different routings and elevated tracks (the Brooklyn Eagle ran a rendering of the structure that was going to cross Eastern Parkway. It sort of looked like the Hell Gate Railroad in Astoria).
There may have been another intent for what was at Montrose Avenue, aside from the original usage of inserting the trains into the tunnel for the first segment of the Canarsie line. Prior to 1929, some of the concepts for a Utica Avenue line included building it as a BRT Stuyvesant/Utica line, running down from Montrose Avenue. The people on Stuyvesant Avenue pulled a NIMBY, saying run it down Reid Avenue (the people on Reid Avenue were....very grateful for that suggestion), and it eventually faded away.
This scheme may have had effect on Eastern Parkway line construction, though. Why is the mezzanine at Utica Avenue crammed in to the west, and away from Utica Avenue? I think it's because they built it expecting a north-south line to be built down Utica Avenue.
There may have been another intent for what was at Montrose Avenue, aside from the original usage of inserting the trains into the tunnel for the first segment of the Canarsie line. Prior to 1929, some of the concepts for a Utica Avenue line included building it as a BRT Stuyvesant/Utica line, running down from Montrose Avenue.
Very interesting. I have heard about the Utica line, but never thought about that in reference to Montrose. As for Montrose, I have seen photos of when they lowered the BMT trains into the original part of the 14th Street line right from the street. I believe it ran like that for a few years. What I don't understand is how they serviced the trains on that line because it was totally severed from the rest of the BMT system. How many trains were actually lowered in at Montrose? I figure they must have been optomistic that they wouldn't have any problems with the trainsets because I think the trains were stuck running from 6th Ave to Montrose back and forth for a few years, and couldn't get out until the rest of the Canarsie line was connected some years later.
[What I don't understand is how they serviced the trains on that line because it was totally severed from the rest of the BMT system.]
Connection to ENY yard via Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction...
[What I don't understand is how they serviced the trains on that line because it was totally severed from the rest of the BMT system.]
Connection to ENY yard via Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction...
Nope, not that way. The 14th Street line was originally built from just 6th Ave to Montrose Avenue - and that's it for a few years. They transported the BMT trains through the streets of Bushwick and lowered the trains into the subway just east of the Montrose Ave station. They then ran service between Montrose Avenue and 6th Avenue for a few years, before the eastern end of the line was built. There was no subway east of Montrose yet, so no connection to the rest of the system. The trains were isolated in the little short 14th street line.
The tracks just beyond the south (east) end of the station had pits for servicing trains. I am not aware of any trains being lifted back out of the station for servicing at ENY yard.
--Mark
Yes, and that's what my theory suggests. I wonder if what I suspect can be proven.
The PROFF is in the Archives stored at 76th Street!
I will pay the station another visit. If there's really enough space between the local tracks for two more tracks, then your suggestion seems like the obvious answer. I know the standard four-track arrangement resumes on either side of the station, but I thought the local tracks "pinched together" through the station itself.
And I'd enjoy reading a followup post on the subject.
Perhaps they were thinking of sending the Nostrand IRT north, into Fulton St, and thence thru the transit museum station somehow-someway into the Clark St. tunnels.
If I recall correctly, somewhere else on this site they say this part of the Fulton line was built after Hylan was gone. Considering the great length of the line, some thru service to Manhattan via the local tracks, at least from Nostrand on, would have been quite desirable.
It was.The plan,2 tracks from the Court street stub to Lower Manhattan,then uptown via the 2nd ave express,from around the Pine street area.The Fulton street line is basically an unfinished project....operating way below design capacity...and should be connected with the rest of the subway system [in East New York to the Jamaica line]in Brooklyn.
To me, the question is why the express tracks are up top, and not the other way around.
The area around Nostrand Avenue is the oldest part of the community, while the area around Ralph Avenue developed later. That may have something to do with the street layout. The area around Nostrand was built up probably before the el was built, while the area to the east probably developed as a result of the el. That may be why the buildings are a little more set back.
I think you deserve a cigar!
Yes. The two local tracks are not next to each other. There is a wall that separates them and on that wall is where the express tracks are.
This statement should be the clincher to this puzzle right here. That curtain wall is the answer. You have to think of the lower level of Nostrand actually looking like let's say Kingston, except there is a curtain wall between the local tracks and the express tracks. This was done at Nostrand to hide the big void were the two express tracks were supposed to originally go because the station IS a "local" station. Sometime between when the shell for the Fulton subway was being built and when the finishing touches were placed in it, they decided to make it an express station. However, the local platforms were already there (as a shell) with four trackways butting up against each other. It was probably decided that it would be cheaper to just send the express tracks up to the mezzanine, and let them platform there, than to rip apart the entire shell for nostrand and realign all the trackways to make it into a normal express station.
All the evidence points to this. I am 99.9% convinced that this is what happened at Nostrand.
This makes sense. The question remains why they did it in the first place.
Were more passengers were anticipated than the original design provided for? Or for a new line going down Bedford with a transfer to the Bedford LIRR station?
Was the LIRR still 100% elevated when they did the Nostrand IND station? I recall reading it was mostly subwayed in the very early 40s, just before the war, about the time this section of subway was being planned/built. Would the alignment of the current elevated LIRR station permit a transfer station ahead of or behind the Bedford/Nostrand station without ripping and tearing the station apart? A line down from S 4th via Marcy perhaps?
I believe BMT Road Dogg is correct. Notice the extra width at the Nostrand Express (A Train) platforms. Perhaps the express station was deliberately built that way to handle extra crowds being that Nostrand IS and always has been a major transfer point for travelers.
Yes, exactly. The express tracks would fit between the 2 local tracks on the lower level.
And that's why if it was originally planned as an express station it would look like Utica. The street is wide enough for a 4 track wide line because the Fulton line at Nostrand IS a four track line. It's an afterthought express station.
My guess is that predicted passanger flow at Nostrand Ave may have been more than originally projected, leading to the compromise of using the upper mezzanine as an express platform.
And that also accounts for the double-wide platforms on the upper level.
wayne
judging from what I've seen from the station...I think you guys are speculating a bit much....which is very entertaning,after all.So we are left with a bunch of unanswered questions. who is willing to do the survey,and mesurements? From all the plans I've seen,the station is built the way it was suppose to be according to the neighborhood,the suface area,and a planned juction with the Bedford ave subway...so for all you guys out there that feel differently,show and prove.8^)
What Bedford Avenue subway? If such a thing was to exist, it would be far more logical to build a one-level station than a two-level one.
The only unanswered question is where you got the fantastic idea of a Bedford Avenue subway? (I'm not insulting you here) Such a thing has never existed nor has it been planned.
All I know about the Bedford Ave Subway is that there was to be a transfer at the Nostrand Ave station. I have no idea where the line went to or from. I don't think it was an IND Second System line or part of the BMT crosstown El
the BMT had plans for a Bedford ave subway line that it couldnt afford,and the IND planned a connecting passageway to join the two routes. In the ''Building The INDEPENENT Subway'' book,it has a long section stating this fact...
If you're talking about a green covered book, I've read that. The book never said anything about where the route would run. The route of the BMT crosstown El I read in a book in the library. It had the route and the stations listed. I think it was called "History of Rapid Transit in Brooklyn and Queens: Nassau and Suffolk"
Building the independent system is a black covered book, and has a photo of an AA train in the 42nd Street/8th Station.
Maybe I had an early edition.
BMT Road Dogg: Regarding the upper level at Nostrand Avenue I believe that (part of) the reason for the unorthodox configuaration at that station is then it was designed in was felt that many more of the LIRR passengers who transfer to the subway here rather than at the Flatbush Avenue Terminal. The reason that someone would get off the LIRR and walk a block in the elements when there was an all-weather transfer at Flatbush Avenue escapes me.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, I think that's one, if not the main, reason Nostrand Avenue was made into an express/local station. The Long Island Rail Road is indeed two short blocks from the station.
and a transfer point for an unbuilt subway line under Bedford ave.
I recall reading a post some time back on this board about a planned Flatbush Ave line. Presumably, then, it would have gone south under Bedford until it reached the point where it intersects Flatbush and Foster, and thence south on Flatbush.
I don't remember reading anything about this on the pages at this site concerning the plans for the 2nd IND.
The only line I know of that was supposed to run along Bedford Ave was a planned BMT crosstown El from Queensboro Plaza to Franklin/Fulton. If Hylan wasn't in office building his IND line, we might have that now instead of the G line.
And if it was built it might have never survived the 1970's.
If the G line wasn't built, it might have lasted. I guess we'll never know!
An el which didn't go into Manhattan? How many of them bit the dust in the 70's?
I don't know what letter or number it would have been. It seems that a train would come into QBP then turn south along Jackson Ave into Brooklyn. Connected with the now Franklin Shuttle and maybe go to Stillwell. Some route!
Most of them were unrebuilt 1800's els though that bit the dust. If it was built at that time it would have been a dual contract type el, and may have survived, although look what I'm saying......the Fulton Street el was a rebuilt Dual Contract el , and that bit the dust, so you may be right.
Hell, the Jamaica el was a dual contract el the WENT to Manhattan and THAT bit the dust, so you may be right, but who knows,
Let's assume this el was built. An BMT el which never went into Manhattan would have been severly neglected during the deferred maintenance period. It would have been ripe for abandonment during the 1970's.
Alternatively - if the G Line had been built as an El, it might not have survived.
But one thing we will never know is if which one would have served better, the G or the Bedford Av line.
That was the proposed extension of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle...a dream deferred...:(
I said this before but I will try again. There is less than 2000 feet between the IND South Brooklyn (F) and the Brighton Line around Prospect Park or Parkside Av. on the (Q). If a connection were made, then the V could be extended to Brooklyn and end at Franklin Ave and Fulton St.
Then Franklin Ave. would be part of a regular line as Astoria is and no longer a shuttle.
Of all doable, reasonably cheap subway projects, this is probably #1 on the list It would add about 50% more service on the Brighton, maxing out the severely under-utilized Rutgers tunnels.
But it most certainly the Franklin line would remain a shuttle (consider the platform lengths).
Where would it have gone from Franklin Av onto Bedford Av?
The reason that someone would get off the LIRR and walk a block in the elements when there was an all-weather transfer at Flatbush Avenue escapes me.
It is THREE blocks... but it is a connection to the IND which cannot be had at Flatbush Avenue.
Elias
I think there's another aspect to this matter. Years ago, people were more accustomed to the particulars of going from place to place via varying rail lines. It wasn't thought of as a hardship to have to walk from Atlantic Avenue to Fulton Street. People put up with more. Nowadays, it seems as though the population gets coddled to the point where the prospect of walking beyond a few feet from their car to the store entrance dismays people. I see how they scurry to get the closest parking space they can.
`course, that WAS in the day when all shopping was done on real live streets. Not fully enclosed completely planned and designed "retail environments". Thank goodness I can still get to 86th Street with the lovely el passing by overhead. I'll take that over Roosevelt Field Mall anytime.
It (and Kingston Throop) would have been green tile had they been originally designed as local stations. That design probably had much to do with the local topography.
wayne
True about the tiles, but the change was probably made before the tiles were even near being installed, so it was two late to make Nostrand a normal express station, but soon enough to keep the IND tile system accurate. The Fulton line and it's stations were probably just shells when that decision was made. By the time it was time for the tiles, it was already decided that Nostrand would be an express station, having the express tracks go through what was originally planned to be the mezzanine of a local station. If it was planned to be a double-decker express station right from the start because of topography, it would look like Bergen Street. As far as I can tell the underground ROW IS four tracks wide at Nostrand, not two tracks wide like at Bergen. The express tracks go up to what was supposed to be a mezzanine, and are STILL in between the local tracks, except they are one level up.
The express tracks go up to what was supposed to be a mezzanine, and are STILL in between the local tracks, except they are one level up.
Excellently said. This is why I firmly believe Nostrand was originally planned to be a local station.
I agree!
Here's another thing to consider about the Fulton St. line: why did IND planners overlook Franklin Avenue for consideration as an express stop location? It would have been a logical choice since the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was -- and is -- a major n/s transfer point for A/C riders. Was it one of those 'rivalary issues' (i.e., IND vs. BMT) that thwarted this from happenning? Seems IND planners considered an express stop of Nostrand for potenital LIRR riders more important than an express connection for BMT riders at Franklin. Any thoughts?
Yup, it would seem that way. Hylan hated both the IRT and the BMT. Aside from the Queens line, almost the entire IND was built reduntanly to BMT and IRT lines. The Councourse and Fulton lines seeming to be the biggest offeners (of course in Manhattan, the IRT els too, but I feel removal of the Avenue's els was necessary in Manhattan, not to mention the fact that they would have had to be rebuilt anyway if they were to remain). The Concourse and Fulton lines were a big waste of money with the Jerome el so close, and the dual contracts rebuilt Fulton El was fine on Fulton Street.
I don't think he had a problem with the LIRR, but who knows.
It would have been a logical choice since the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was -- and is -- a major n/s transfer point for A/C riders
At the time the IND Fulton St Line was built - the full BMT Fulton Street line continued to operate overhead. IMO the IND planners could care less about connecting to BMT services. Besides why would BMT riders transfer to the IND at Franklin for an extra nickel when they could transfer to the BMT Fulton Line for free?
That's easy. The IND assumed the Franklin shuttle would have been demolished along with the Fulton el. I'm assuming the city created the transfer here to allow Fulton IND riders a one fare ride to Ebbets Field.
Hylan/BMT issues aside (although that had to have been a major factor), the intersection of Nostrand Avenue and Fulton Street was, is, and always will be the heart of that part of Brooklyn. Politically, making that a local stop would not have been an easy thing to do.
The IND had no chose, they wanted LIRR customers just as much as the IRT.
Quite true, also. It's a very short walk from one station to the other.
If I was coming in from Long Island, I wouldn't get off at Nostrand/Atlantic to walk 2 blocks to Nostrand/Fulton when I could stay on the LIRR one more stop to Flatbush Terminal and catch the IRT without going outside and walking alot less.
I would never get offat Nostrand either. Although it depends on where I'm going. Usually I get off at East NEw York and get the L at Atlantic Avenue.
What if you needed to go somewhere on the IND, particularly on the IND in Brooklyn?
Now or then?
Does it matter?
Yes, it does. You could not get to there then via the IND as you can
do now. The interdivisional transfers came after the merger of the
three Subways under the banner of the NYCBOT. And then in 1968 came
Chrystie Street.
;-) Sparky
I'm talking about transfers from the LIRR to the IND -- whether Douce Man would transfer at Nostrand or at Flatbush. What are you talking about?
If I was on Long Island going to Manhattan, I'd take the train going to 34 St. If I had to go via Atlantic Ave, I'd get off at Flatbush Terminal and catch the IRT a few steps away instead of walking 2 blocks to catch the IND.
But what if you were going specifically to a point on the A/C in Brooklyn or lower Manhattan?
In Manhattan take the LIRR to Flatbush Terminal and change for the IRT. Depending on where in Brooklyn, the same thing.
I'm not sure how that would help you get to a point on the A/C. You'd transfer again at Fulton or Park Place?
For me personally, if I came in from eastern LI and was going to any point along the Fulton Subway, I guess I might get off at Nostrand Avenue. Although if I was going to the eastern end of the Fulton subway/Liberty El/Rockaway Branch, more likely though, I would get off at East New York and walk to Broadway Junction (I've even done that, also not that far, about a two block walk), or take the L at Atlantic to BJ for the A/C. The East New York-Atlantic L connection is a very easy one, and I have used it countless times. That's much easier I feel, and of course, it would be foolish to go all the way to Penn Station, and come back on the A/C again, and Flatbush really does you no good if you need the BRooklyn IND.
As for Lower Manhattan, I don't think I would take the A or C at all. I probably would take the 2/3 at Atlantic. The IRT in lower Manhattan goes everywhere the A/C does, and by the time it splits further, we are getting near Penn Station anyway.
Flatbush really does you no good if you need the BRooklyn IND.
Isn't it two blocks from Lafayette Avenue (C) and Fulton Street (G)?
more like three or four blocks. >GG<
;-) Sparky
It's a lot longer than two blocks if you have to walk it.
Yup, I would use that as a transfer to the Brooklyn IND. Nostrand has got to be easier (although I never did it), but I still say get off at East New York, and either walk to Broadway Junction for the A/C, or take the L at Atlantic to Broadway Junction. The headways are pretty good on the L, so I think that would be faster than riding to Nostrand or Flatbush, and walking to the IND.
I meant, I would NOT use that as a transfer to the Brooklyn IND.
Yup, I would use that as a transfer to the Brooklyn IND. Nostrand has got to be easier (although I never did it), but I still say get off at East New York, and either walk to Broadway Junction for the A/C, or take the L at Atlantic to Broadway Junction. The headways are pretty good on the L, so I think that would be faster than riding to Nostrand or Flatbush, and walking to the IND.
It depends on where you want to go to once you make the subway connection, doesn't it?
I would assume if I was taking the LIRR I'd be going to Manhattan.
That's my home station, the reason the station is split level is because the street is very narrow and underground can't handle the two island platforms such as Utica Ave. and Bway Junction. I remember long time ago I asked this question, I will try 2 go into the archives and find some answers.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Lets us know if you find anything about 76 Street!
Talking about the double level station of Nostrand on the A/C, it might of been done to force riders to stay on the local, another possibility is that it was meant to be a local stop but then it was decided to make it express.
No It's because of the space underground, you know there are pipes and what not down there.
I've had a simpler theory. Nostrand Ave was originally designed to be a local station. Construction began and a decision was made to make Nostrand an express stop. I think they raised the express tracks upwards into what would have been a station-long mezzanine (like on some Queens Blvd stations). Nostrand is unlike other bi-level IND stations. The lower level is not directly under the upper (like Bergen St.). There is a divider between the lower level platforms which would have contained the express tracks in the original plan. Also, the express tracks are the ones which rise to the level of the planned mezzanine. The lower level tracks stay at the same grade, making me suspect this was a late compromise after initial construction in the area began.
I've also been in Nostrand Ave. several times. Remove the express tracks and the upper level would look identical to any other IND station long mezzanine, like the one at Woodhaven Blvd.
No It was always made for a express stop, they couldn't do the whole big station thing like Bway Junction and Utica.
Then why the compromise configuration? Why not a station identical to Bergen St?
No, I'm still convinced Nostrand Ave is a modified local station.
No It was always madd for a express stop, Im in and out of that station everyday, and the station was made for a express stop, its split level because the street is very NARROW, and can not fit that big station down there. Believe me that stations gets very crowded ALOT!
No, I'm afraid I agree with Chris. Look closely at this photo:
Take away the mosaic "Nostrand" mosaic, and this looks just like your typical cookie-cutter IND mezzanine. This platform is screaming "mezzanine".
Now look at this photo of what a "typical" wall platform station looks like along the line:
Nostrand looks to be an after-thought express station. If they planned it as a stacked express station from the beginning, it would have platforms that look like those at Kingston, and the platforms would have been stacked right on top of each other, and the tracks right on top of each other.
Believe me that stations gets very crowded ALOT!
Yes, and they forcast that soon after the original plans. That's why they decided to make it an express station instead. They decided this early on (as the tiles change color at Nostrand), but it was after the shell was already there that they probably decided to make it an express station. The tracks ascend and decend, they don't curve too far outward, so there would have been enough to make a normal station at that point if they didn't already build a "local" station shell there before they changed the plans in the 30's.
As mentioned the express tracks and local tracks are not perfectly on top of each other like at other stacked express stations. They are in the middle, just on a different level. The row is four tracks wide at that point not two like they are at let's say Bergen Street.
That's exactly what I said. I guess it must have sounded better coming from Chris.
Don't feel bad. It's impossible to read every post here at Subtalk. I must've missed yours the first time around.
If that is so, why is there a large space between the lower level tracks? Compare Nostrand to Bergen St. The tracks are directly underneath the other. If Nostrand was a purpose-built bi-level express station, then the station would look exactly like Bergen St.
I'm 100% convinced Nostrand was a converted local station. Whether this conversion took place either on paper, or shortly after construction began is another question. I also have a difficult time believing that Nostrand Ave would have been originally planned as an express station, being only 2 stops from Utica Ave.
Well, if my theory is correct, the IND made Nostrand an express stop just to spite the BMT because the natural express stop should have been Franklin Avenue.
Doug,
I don't think it was spite work of the IND not making Franklin an
Express stop with service to Coney Island. The intent of the IND
was service to Coney Island via Smith Street Subway. The IND was
to recapture the Culver Line from the BMT. IIRC, construction
was started south of Church Avenue to make the connection, then a
little World conflict WWII intefered and the connection was not
completed till 1954. Why would the IND have built a connection
at Franklin to compete with themselves? IMO
;-) Sparky
Why would the IND have built a connection
at Franklin to compete with themselves? IMO
For that matter, why would the BMT have done it?
Ah, the old Brighton express/local. What is now the Franklin shuttle turned onto the Fulton el and thence westward, apparently as an express. The Brighton line was one upon a time a real four track line, tho' the Fulton el had its limitations.
One forgets just how short the train sets used to be.
Yup, that's back in the day when the Brighton Line was a bonafide RAILROAD!
^^^"One forgets just how short the train sets used to be."^^^
But their are some of us that do. Summer Sunday Frankie Express
service with 3 standards [67' x 3 = 201'] or AA or GG off peak
service, 3 arnines [60' X 3 = 180']. 300 foot trains on the (G)
is a service improvement. Or IRT Locals in Manhattan with 5 cars
all times [51' x 5 = 255']. Yes, those were the days. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Did service to Park Row via Fulton exist at the same time the current service to Manhattan via the Flatbush Ave. trunk?
In a sense, they wouldn't have once the Brighton line was connected with the 4th Avenue line as part of the Dual Contracts.
The concept for the Crosstown line that was pushed until the mid-1920s was to connect it with the Brighton line on the south with the subways at Queensboro Plaza on the north. They called it the "Shore (or Ocean) to Sound Line". Until the time of World War 1, it was planned as an entirely elevated line, running on some of the streets that the G line now follows (Manhattan Avenue and Jackson Avenue). What happened was that the people who lived in Bed-Stuy, Williamsburg, and Greenpoint went completely nuts over the prospect of an elevated line being built through their community, and got the Rapid Transit Law amended to forbid it (it's still on the books).
Until the concept of the IND took hold, other underground proposals were pushed. In one case, it would have connected with the 60th Street tunnel; in another, it would have connected with the Nostrand Avenue line; in a third, it would have gone down Bedford Avenue to a connection with the Brighton line, cutting over to the Prospect Park station at Montgomery Street (which might have caused a certain National League baseball team to protest, since the southwest corner of Bedford Avenue and Montgomery Street was the approximate location of center field in Ebbets Field).
Even after the IND Crosstown line concept took hold, there were still a lot of fights between the community groups near Lafayette Avenue and those near Fulton Street as to where the line should turn to head into Downtown Brooklyn. Lafayette Avenue won, but it's interesting to think about how things would have changed if Fulton Street was part of the route.
Exactly what was the route for the Bedford Ave subway? All I know for sure is that at Nostrand/Fulton is that at the old Bedford Ave exit there was supposed to have been a transfer to it. I walked around the area there before the exit closed years ago. I didn't see anything to suggest a provision to a transfer. Other than that I haven't read or seen anything about it anywhere else.
There were numerous iterations over the years. Here's one from the New York State Transit Commission in 1922 (there were actually several plans pushed that year):
Jackson Avenue to Hunters Point, crossing Newtown Creek, Manhattan Avenue, Roebling Street, and Bedford Avenue to a connection with the Brighton and Fulton Street lines at Franklin Avenue and Fulton Street.
A branch or connection beginning at a point at or near Bedford Avenue and Hancock Street and continuing thence through private property and intervening street to a point under Fulton Street at or near Franklin Avenue; thence westerly under and along Fulton Street to a point at or near Fort Greene Place where a connection can be conveniently be made with the proposed Ashland Place Connection; thence curving westerly under and along Lafayette Avenue private property and Flatbush Avenue to and under Livingston Street where a connection can be conveniently be made with the proposed Livingston Street Rapid Transit Railroad
Also a branch beginning at a point under Fulton Street at or near Fort Greene Place to connect with the existing 4th Avenue Rapid Transit Railroad at or near Ashland Place. Two tracks of this branch shall continue under and along Fulton Street and a third track shall run under and along Lafayette Avenue, private property, Ashland Place and private property to a point in Fulton Street at or near Ashland Place.
Cost: $42,000,000
Im gonna have to research on this, Now Im not saying your wrong and Im right, there are all kinds of possibilities, Im gonna do some research and I'll post what I have soon.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Having not been upstairs, I am also inclined to believe something is up at Nostrand. The dimensions of the station are not like other multi-level stations. I will also admit that I have never been on the lower level. My question is how deep is the express track? Does anyone have that info? I think that might be a clue.
The express (upper) level is directly under the street (one flight down). The local platforms are directly underneath the express. There is no mezzanine/crossover.
The express (upper) platforms are twice as wide as the local platforms are and extend over the lower level tracks. There is a tiled wall on the lower level seperating the local tracks by a distance that roughly equals the width of the two upper express tracks.
Nostrand Ave at one point DID have a crossover. At the N/E of the station (express platform) there are 2 metal doors on each platform. Once upon a time there was an overpass to an exit that left you at Bedford/Fulton.
Years ago when TA did booth closings that booth and exit were closed. IIRC the booth didn't do much business and what people were down there usually jumped over.
I remember those ramps. They roughly follow the grade of the rising local tracks as they leave Nostrand (lower) for Franklin Ave.
If you ever walked around over there, Did you ever see anything that looked like a transfer to another subway or El?
Can't say that I have.
I've been told that the metal doors led to a passageway that was for a tranfer for the never built Bedford Ave. Crosstown line.
I've used that passageway as a crossover years ago before it was closed. It leads to an exit that was on Bedford Avenue. The turnstiles and the token booth were still there, only there was a wire fence to prevent anyone from going over there.
There was also a subway entrance on Bedford Avenue and Fulton Street that has since been sealed shut. I always thought that was strange since Franklin Avenue station entrance was just one block over.
In a sense it is. Fulton Street is not appreciably wider than Smith Street in the area of Nostrand Avenue, and it was probably a big problem to squeeze in four tracks on one lever. The city had to knock down a bunch of buildings to widen the Smith Street line in the vicinity of the Carroll Street station -- that's why there's a big playground, a school, and some long-vacant land on the west side of Smith Street by that station.
In a sense it is. In the area of Bergen Street, Smith Street is not appreciably narrower than Fulton Street, and both are in old neighborhoods.
The Smith Street line widens out in the area of Carroll Street because the city was able to obtain land and level buildings. That's why you have a big park, a school, a school playground, some long-vacant lots, and some open sidewalk space on the west side of the street.
Okay, look at it this way:
A standard 4 track/2 platform express station takes up just about as much underground space as an 4 track/2 platform local station. I think the one thing that everyone seems to agree about here is that the station at Nostrand has two express tracks on the upper level in the middle with wide platforms on the side, and the lower level has the local tracks which are under part of the upper express platforms, and not right under the upper express tracks. This means that the station is four trackways wide, plus the two local platforms, making it the same width as any other local station on the line, and the same width of most standard express stations anyway.
So there's very little more space needed with a standard express station, vs a local station. (with both you need space for 4 tracks and 2 platforms wide - which is what Nostrand is, even if it's two levels) And, if Nostrand takes up the same amount of space as a standard local station (which it does), it could have been made into a standard express station if it was planned that way from the beginning. It wasn't originally planned that way in the beginning, and it would have cost too much to rip out what the already built when it was decided that the station was going to be an express station instead of a local station.
(there's very little more space needed with a standard express station, vs a local station)
I haven't seen Nostrand, but what you say is not quite true.
A standard 4 track local station can have platforms as little as 12' wide. For example, Bleecker St on the 6.
A standard 4 track express station should have platforms that are at least 20' wide, preferably 25' wide. Otherwise, there is too much danger that when you step back from one train you push someone over the edge into the path of another train.
So I'd say you need at least 16' extra feet, preferably 26', for a standard express station. I'm not saying Fulton doesn't have those 16', but you do need more space.
What does 72nd St on the 1/2/3 have? That's a really narrow pair of platforms, and it's definitely more than the 12' Bleecker has.
A standard 4 track local station can have platforms as little as 12' wide. For example, Bleecker St on the 6.
Yes you make a valid point. Open express stations do have to be a bit wider than wall platforms. So the question is then how wide are the "local" platforms at Nostrand.
ABout half the width of the express platforms. The express platforms extend OVER the local tracks underneath.
I agree. There isn't enough space in the current at Nostrand for the standard express stop. My theory is predicated on the fact that Nostrand was designed to be a standard local stop with a full length mezzanine on the upper (now express) platform.
If there really isn't enough space, the question is more as to why they didn't build it South(East)bound over North(West)bound rather than express over local.
As an aside, the island vs side platform issue is indeed a matter of space, but you have slightly overstated it. On the most recently constructed line in Paris (14), side platforms are 6 metres wide (19'8") and the island platform at the Gare de Lyon 9 metres wide (29'6"). Okay, those are goddam spacious platforms, but the proportion of an island platform needing to be 150% the width of a side platform is more realistic than your suggestion of 167%-208%. If side platforms 12' wide can be gotten away with in NYC, it follows that an island platform need only be 18' wide, regardless of what is desirable. A local/express station distinction therefore could be as little as 12' in width.
I can't argue with anything you've said here.
Well we don't know the orginal Nostrand Avenue station so until we have some real proof everybody is wrong, although I do believe the station was orginally built as a express station, hey have you ever been to the Nostrand Avenue Station?? I was there today (Everyday Single Day) and it doesnt't appear to be made as local station, But Who knows?
It never was a local station. It was DESIGNED as one. All the evidence suggests this premise. The change was probably made in the early days of it's construction, probably after changing it to a more recognizable express format became impossible or too costly.
Like I said their are all possibilties and we don't know what they are yet, and Im doing some research on that now.
Some early blueprints would help, if they still exist.
hey have you ever been to the Nostrand Avenue Station?? I was there today (Everyday Single Day) and it doesnt't appear to be made as local station, But Who knows?
Yes, I have been there. But what it is there today, is not necessarily as it was meant to be originally.
One thing is true....it ALWAYS was an express station in use, no one is disputing that or saying that it was originally a local station, and converted. However, some of us are trying to say that when they were first building the line in the 30's, they originally PLANNED for it to be local. Very soon after, they decided it should be an express station, but only after the shell of Nostrand (as a local) station was there already. A compromise was made, and the express sent upstairs to platform.
What is there now is how it was when it originally opened to service, but the original plans were different.
Aside from the transfers, would you call Broadway-East New York a big station? There's only one small mezzanine in the IND station.
No, except for the BMT portion. Question: where will the elevator go in the IND mezzanine?
I questioned Steve Krokowski about the Nostrand/Fulton station configuration and he sides with my hypothesis that indeed the property easements were an issue around Fulton at Nostrand AVenue and this lead to the double-decking of the A & C platforms.
Had a medical appointment with the Mrs. earlier and used Public Transit.
When we crossed under Broadway on the B48, noticed the
R42s stacked on the express track. Is the "POND" under water???
;-) Sparky
From what I gathered before I left work on Friday (I'm a conductor on the M), was that they were laying up on the structure 'just in case' Fresh Pond Yard flooded out from the anticipated rains over the weekend. I think (don't hold me to it) they were doing the same down in the South (Coney Island Yard).
CIY is also putting train were the Snow Birds are layup. CIY floods alot in some places.
Robert
Southbound Broadway Express is full of R40/R40M's.
Q's run local 49th to Prince.
The Q is supposed to be running local in both directions this weekend, to fill in for missing R service.
GO cancelled.
Yes Alex, to add Northbound Q was running express.
Do you know if the work was completed last weekend or if we'll see the GO pop up again later?
How was the N running today?
Best guess: look for it to happen this weekend or next.
Southbound Broadway Express is full of R40/R40M's.
Q's run local 49th to Prince.
They were also laying up on the 6th Av. express track B4 south of 34th. Visible from the D terminating there.
A modified Plan 2 in in effect for the weekend. The J/M/Z line superintendant put out a notice stating that the purpose is due to concerns of weekend flooding at FP and CIYD's due to anticipated heavy weekend rains. The 8 CIYD put-ins for Monday AM are laid up north of Hewes St, the trains for Met are laid up north of B'way/Myrtle. I don't know if all 10 are there however, they were still laying them up as of 12:01 AM Saturday. If all 10 are indeed there, they need 2 trainsets to make the 02:04 and 02:24 Monday morning when OPTO ceases. A third trainset would be needed as a gap train. Met would need the others starting around 6 AM.
As of right now, however many of Mets' trains were laid up north of B'way/Myrtle, a friend who lives near FP station has called me on the phone stating that R42's are passing by, so apparently they are now being pulled out of there. I am sure the 8 for CIYD will stay till the early morning and be moved by the t/o's who report to CIYD.
Guys,
Thanks for the replies. Appreciated.
;-) Sparky
Tune to the Discobery Channel NOW, Metrolink Crash!
Tune to the Discovery Channel NOW, Metrolink Crash!
I went out and did some light railfanning today to see what the latest GO was all about. Basically, D line service was suspended between 10th & Osage and 30th Ave. with shuttlebus service taking over the downtown portion. All trains were running on the C line to Union Station. Here's what gets me: instead of just running C trains only, some trains were carrying D signs and signed up for 30th Ave. The n/b train I took was initially marked as such, then when we got to 10th & Osage, the T/O changed the destination signs to Union Station. However, he didn't flip over the two-sided placard from D to C.
The reason for this GO was that Stout St. is being rerouted between Speer Blvd. and 14th St. to get around the Convention Center annex, and the light rail tracks are being shifted over as well. The D line will literally run right through the annex, beneath what appears to be a new parking garage. Trackwork and catenary are already in place and switches have been installed at Speer Blvd. There will be a new station at the Convention Center once the annex is finished, and the existing 14th St. stations will be eliminated by the end of next year.
There was another GO of sorts: single track operation between 10th & Osage and Broadway. S/b trains switched to the n/b track and wrong-railed all the way to Broadway. The train I was on had to come to a stop before the grade crossing at Bayaud Ave. in order to activate the track trip for the crossing gates. There is a new bridge going up that will carry I-25 over Broadway and BNSF tracks, and workers were pouring a concrete cap for one of the piers by the s/b track. All light rail service between Broadway and 10th & Osage will be suspended in two weeks while they place girders over the tracks. This bridge will take quite a while to build; it's being built in thirds with discretionary funding and will replace a 1950s-era bridge which is not in the best of shape. Construction will take place as funding is obtained.
The western end of the Broadway light rail flyover is taking shape. The retaining walls are going up and you can clearly see the outline of the three-way wye connection that will be put in.
I finally saw car 149 today, currently the highest number in the fleet. It was the second car of the s/b train I rode on back to Englewood.
The reason for this GO was that Stout St. is being rerouted between Speer Blvd. and 14th St. to get around the Convention Center annex, and the light rail tracks are being shifted over as well. The D line will literally run right through the annex, beneath what appears to be a new parking garage. Trackwork and catenary are already in place and switches have been installed at Speer Blvd.
Smart idea on Denver's part, running the light rail right through the convention center. If only New York would do the same with the Javits Center (sigh).
On top of that, the new station will be long enough to handle four-car trains. Once they close the two 14th St. stations, they may start running four-car trains downtown. The only reason they can't right now is because the 14th-California station is squeezed in between Stout and California Streets, and a three-car train barely fits without the tail end of the last car swinging out onto 14th Street. A typical city block downtown is not square-shaped. It is rectangular, and while a four-car train can stop between two numbered streets and still fit inside the block, it cannot do so between named streets.
The other reason they aren't running four-car trains now is because there aren't enough cars (imagine that!). Besides, every station except Union Station can only accommodate three-car trains right now.
On top of that, the new station will be long enough to handle four-car trains. Once they close the two 14th St. stations, they may start running four-car trains downtown. The only reason they can't right now is because the 14th-California station is squeezed in between Stout and California Streets, and a three-car train barely fits without the tail end of the last car swinging out onto 14th Street. A typical city block downtown is not square-shaped. It is rectangular, and while a four-car train can stop between two numbered streets and still fit inside the block, it cannot do so between named streets.
The other reason they aren't running four-car trains now is because there aren't enough cars (imagine that!). Besides, every station except Union Station can only accommodate three-car trains right now.
With the completion of the Manhattan Bridge work in 2004, will the M return to the Brighton or stay on the West End?
Keeping the M on the West End or moving it to the Sea Beach would help maintain a decent level of service at 4th Avenue local stations, especially if the N becomes an express on 4th.
The N has been a weekday express on 4th since 1994. It became a night and weekend express on 4th last year.
I agree that the R alone wouldn't be enough on the local track, expecially at 9th Street. South of 36th one local probably suffices.
South of 36th one local probably suffices.
The R, at it's current headways, is inadequate south of 36th St.
In pre-Chrystie days, wasn't the 95th Street service the only local south of 36th Street, and it was 6 Standards/8 R27's ? Why isn't that enough today ?
No it wasn't. It was always supplemented by Nassau St service, at least south of 59th St.
Ridership in this area has increased, especially after the Verrazano bridge opened.
I though the only Nassau Street service from 4th Avenue subway was the Culver local, then the West End loacal.
You forgot the Banker's Specials. After 1967 you had the RJ/RR specials.
You had the special R's/the Bankers specials that ran to Chambers from 1967-1987.
But prior to Chrystie, there was but one local south of 36th. The TT did the Nassau Street honors. No Bankers RR or RJ yet.
It wasn't called "RR" or "RJ" yet, but there were specials (I think signed "M" one direction, and "S" in the other) from 95th (as well as the ones from the Brighton). Originally they switched to the express at 59th, but eventually it was local.
Bay Ridge always had Broadway & Nassau St. service, going back to the completion of the Nassau St. loop.
Bay Ridge doesn't need another route, just one which runs more frequently than the R does today. A 12 TPH headway would suffice, and will be possible when both sides of the bridge open, allowing the N to run on the bridge.
(A 12 TPH headway would suffice, and will be possible when both sides of the bridge open, allowing the N to run on the bridge.)
12 tph on the R is quite possible right now. The N, M, and W are each 6-7 tph, so nowhere do the BMT local tracks have more than the R plus 14 tph of N and M or N and W.
NYCT simply chooses not to run the R at more than 10 tph for the Queens rush hour (8 tph for the Brooklyn rush hour; some trains turn at Whitehall), probably because they think that's enough for the traffic.
Actually, the N & R are at a maximum 8-9 TPH headway, with the M at 6-7. N/R service is HORRIBLE. The W and both Q's run more frequently.
Ah, I failed to notice that there are more northbound than soutbound Ns and Ws in the AM rush (8 and 9 vs. 6 and 7).
But it doesn't really change my point. NYCT could still run 12 Rs northbound if they so wished. 8 + 9 + 12 = 29, which would barely fit through the 60th St tunnel.
AIM, but what about the Vs? They share the QB local tracks with the R, NB and SB. Wouldn't there be too many R + V to be taken out of service or reversed at QP if there were 12 Rs + 9 Vs? Wouldn't 21 tph be too much to handle without extensive delays?
The R, at its current headways, is inadequate along its whole length.
Where and when do you find the R to be inadequate? I personally find that unless it is seriously delayed (i.e., not running on the planned headway) it is never really crowded.
Ride the R south of 36th St at 7:30 AM.
It's jammed.
We really need a more precise metric. "Jammed" can mean anywhere from "most of the seats are taken" to "it's physically impossible to cram another human being into the car." (I'd chime in with the number of passengers per car, as I did in an IRT thread we had a few months ago, but I only have those counts across the CBD boundary. With all the transferring at 59th, 36th, 9th, Pacific, DeKalb, and Court, that wouldn't help us much.)
Jammed would be my classification between what would be considered "at capacity" and what would be considered "crush loading".
Oh. Then you mean it's empty by Manhattan IRT standards!
Exactly.
The Ta should include weight sensors on all new cars. They would be able determin the load factors on each car at each point in it's trip.
That would allow the ta to deploy the correct ammount of rail cars per train and adjust service levels accoordingly. Instead of the huge waste of money that is running full length trains all the time.
This can easily be done and should be included on all new cars
I think only the C has worse headways than the R - at least perceptually to me anyway. I have hardly ever had a pleasant R ride.
(I think only the C has worse headways than the R)
According to MTA schedules, as bad or worse than the R are the B, C, D, G, J, M, N, V, W, and of course the rush-hour only Z.
I know, that's why I said "perceptually" in my post. It may or may not be unfounded that it has bad headways, but I don't know why I hate the R, I just do. Like I said, I've hardly ever have had a pleasant experience on the R. Aparently though I'm not alone in my perception - I didn't come up with calling it the "Rarely" train; I've heard that used here many times by many different posters.
The terrible service on the R costs the MTA in the extra expense of running addtional express buses in Bay Ridge Brooklyn. The R is so bad that people are willing to pay $5 for express ferry service.
Hey Chris, I've called the R a lot worse than that. As a kid I hated riding that train but I had to until I got to Times Square. We used to call it the 4th Avenue Local, even in Queens. What a crappy ride. It took eons to get anywhere and we got bummed out going home because we had to take it five stops to Queens Plaza. It is right in its element in the Montague rathole.
It is right in its element in the Montague rathole.
Alright Fred, just for you we will change it from the "Rarely" train to the "Rat" train.
For a while.. particularly before the Broadway express service.. the "R" was a better line than the "N".. I will see 2/3 and one N train.. I was baffle of why they ran the "R" more than the "N" since the "N" is more popular than the "R".
N Bwy
The N and R were really bad back when the MB was closed to Broadway trains. I hated having to use the Broadway line back when only the N and R used it on the local, and the express was closed. Between only the N and tHe R running there it was torture. However, even through all that, Broadway is still my favorite Manhattan trunk line.
Yes, service on the Broadway Line completely sucked while the south side of the bridge was closed. I hope we never have to go back to that, not even only on weekends, when the north side reopens.
That's the TA's call. But it is good to hear that most of you want the Sea Beach back on the bridge. That is where it has always belonged and hopefully the TA will do the right thing and use their heads this time around.
Since you said it, it's your call. I have thought of giving the R that name for the past few years, but even thinking of that line made me queasy since I have despised the R, formerly the #2BMT, since I was a kid. But the the credit goes to you. From now on when I refer to that train it will be the rat train. Good job Chris.
Yes, but don't some R trains at peak times do an EE and terminate at Whitehall?
The "C" might have worse headways.. but it's tends to be on schedule more often than the "R".
N Bwy
That's why they call it the RARELY.
wayne
I think most likely the M will stay on the west end .Rumor has it that the Q will run express along six ave. and be extended to 71 cont.(local) and the V will be retired. This was planned when the connector first opened but then the sixth ave side of the bridge closed and it could not be put in effect.
Rumor has it that the Q will run express along six ave. and be extended to 71 cont.(local) and the V will be retired.
Yeah, rumor.
Where did you hear this? The First Annual Montgomery Burns Convention of Lies, Half-truths and Falsehoods?
Rumor has it that the Q will run express along six ave. and be extended to 71 cont.(local) and the V will be retired.
Write letter to the TA. And they will say NO!
I'd see the M staying on West End where it is just fine as a backup to the B during Rush Hours. I'd definitely see more Q's extended to Queens in 2004, but as far as V, no it is staying. The Q will be on Broadway to 57th St. unless something changes.
No! No Q on 6th Avenue, never again. Let this remain just what it is, a rumor.
The way I see it, the M would stay on the West End since R service can't be increased too much right now. It would be nice to see the M return to the Brighton though :-).
(The way I see it, the M would stay on the West End since R service can't be increased too much right now.)
R service (i.e., 4th Ave local service heading for lower Broadway) can perfectly well be increased if the traffic warrants it. If NYCT doesn't want to send the additional trains to Continetal, they could send them to Astoria, which probably needs more than just the N anyway.
But is there a need for more 4th Ave. locals at all?
I do wonder if there is really a need for extra 4 Av local service; if the M were to be moved BACK to the Brighton the R would have to be increased in service or move the N to the 4 Av local.
You already jave the N and W at Astoria however if its like that, might as well let those special R's run via Astoria express to Astoria Blvd in the middle track so it won't clog service but you could run it to Ditmars too but it doesn't stay at Ditmars very long.
There definitely needs to be more than just the R (at its current service level) stopping at 9th Street.
As AlM pointed out, if the M is moved back to the Brighton, 4th Avenue express passengers will have to transfer twice to get to Nassau. That's best avoided.
The R can't terminate at Astoria Boulevard unless it runs in both directions on the middle track. Even if headways are great enough that it should work in theory, I doubt NYCT would adopt such an arrangement. Why not run all the R's to Continental, as now? Yes, some routes have a few runs that deviate from the normal service pattern, but that's always for the purpose of reaching a yard or avoiding a terminal that's already at capacity. Why confuse the passengers for no good reason?
That's why I'd be in favor of reducing number of R trains to 6 tph and sending the 6 tph Z through to 95th St. That gives 12 tph south of 36th in rush as well as direct access to both Broadway and Nassau. On the other end of the R line, I would compensate the reduction of R with increase of V to 12 tph, which of course leads to a further chain reaction toward a plan I posted in another thread....
I don't know why this keeps coming up. The J and Z are not different lines -- they're simply two minor variants of a single line. They have to follow the exact same route. What happens if a Z gets delayed at DeKalb for a few minutes? Then two J's get sent out of Broad consecutively while Z-only stations are left hanging. The J and Z must alternate out of Broad, and the only way to guarantee that is to run them on the exact same route.
And what do you do about the reduced service on the Broadway local tracks?
Oh, and more importantly, the Z only runs toward Broad Street in the morning rush and toward Jamaica Center in the afternoon rush. That's the wrong direction for the Bay Ridge crowd. In the other direction, only the J runs, at about 6 tph. Sure, skip-stop could be instituted in both directions, but why should it be? The line is amply served in the anti-peak direction by 6 tph.
Yes to make it simpler, a Z *IS* a J only difference is the letter so the Jamaica line is really every 5 minutes at ab stops.
In that plan, I posted the W service from Bay Parkway to Astoria, 6 tph NB and 9 SB in the morning rush, also running mid-day and early evening to 8 PM. So that gives two Broadway Local services which could easily run 12 tph morning rush, all day, and early evening (and, which according to the plan would have 15 tph SB morning and 15 tph northbound evening).
As regards the J and Z, the SB service in morning rush from Jamaica Center would be unaffected. Just the Z would continue on to Fort Hamilton rather than returning to Jamaica. NB service on the Broadway/Brooklyn to Jamaica would not be adversely affected in the morning rush, as both J and Z make all local stops. The opposite situation would occur in the evening rush. J and Z would be unaffected northbound, but southbound trains designated Z would continue to Fort Hamilton.
In that plan, I posted the W service from Bay Parkway to Astoria, 6 tph NB and 9 SB in the morning rush, also running mid-day and early evening to 8 PM. So that gives two Broadway Local services which could easily run 12 tph morning rush, all day, and early evening (and, which according to the plan would have 15 tph SB morning and 15 tph northbound evening).
Thank you. I have trouble remembering all of the details of the many proposals posted.
Based on the posted timetables, the R currently runs at about 8-9 tph and the N at about 6 tph. Your plan would reduce NB morning local service by about 2-3 tph. I don't know if that's a good idea.
As regards the J and Z, the SB service in morning rush from Jamaica Center would be unaffected. Just the Z would continue on to Fort Hamilton rather than returning to Jamaica. NB service on the Broadway/Brooklyn to Jamaica would not be adversely affected in the morning rush, as both J and Z make all local stops. The opposite situation would occur in the evening rush. J and Z would be unaffected northbound, but southbound trains designated Z would continue to Fort Hamilton.
Perhaps you're not aware of the schedule. The very first Z of the day reaches Broad at 8:07. Based on the M and R schedules, that brings it to 95th at about 8:43, and it gets back to Broad at 9:19. That's the first Z in the morning. Anyone who has to be at work before 9:19 will not be able to take advantage of the extended Z.
The last Z in the afternoon is the 5:45 out of Broad. If it's coming from 95th, it has to leave at about 5:09 to reach Broad in time. And to get to 95th by 5:09, it has to leave Broad at 4:33. Anyone who gets out of work later than 4:33 will not be able to take advantage of the extended Z.
Anyone who has to be at work before 9:19 or has to stay at work past 4:33 will be stuck on the 6 tph R.
If the M were to go to Brighton, the W would have to stay on West End as a local via Broadway instead of express unless the N would stay as is, but highly unlikely.
If the M were to go to Brighton, the W would have to stay on West End as a local via Broadway instead of express unless the N would stay as is, but highly unlikely.
"Your plan would reduce NB morning local service by about 2-3 tph. I don't know if that's a good idea."
David, please look at it again, I have 6 tph NB R + 6 tph NB W, both running local in Brooklyn and Broadway Local in Manhattan, for a total of 12 tph. That's more than the current 9 tph R NB morning rush.
"Perhaps you're not aware of the schedule. The very first Z of the day reaches Broad at 8:07. Based on the M and R schedules, that brings it to 95th at about 8:43, and it gets back to Broad at 9:19. That's the first Z in the morning. Anyone who has to be at work before 9:19 will not be able to take advantage of the extended Z."
David, my idea was to have trains marked Z leaving NB from 95th earlier than that. Except perhaps for the first one or two leaving Jamaica Center that arrive at 95th St. at the late hour you noted, these would not be the same consists that run SB at the same time during the AM rush. The NB consists could be laid up at Eastern Parkway, same as other Nassau services in the pre- and post-Chrystie eras. Reverse for PM.
David, please look at it again, I have 6 tph NB R + 6 tph NB W, both running local in Brooklyn and Broadway Local in Manhattan, for a total of 12 tph. That's more than the current 9 tph R NB morning rush.
The N also runs local in Manhattan currently -- at well more than 3 tph (though it may not seem like much more at times -- they don't call it the Never for nothing).
David, my idea was to have trains marked Z leaving NB from 95th earlier than that. Except perhaps for the first one or two leaving Jamaica Center that arrive at 95th St. at the late hour you noted, these would not be the same consists that run SB at the same time during the AM rush. The NB consists could be laid up at Eastern Parkway, same as other Nassau services in the pre- and post-Chrystie eras. Reverse for PM.
That would be doable, but it has nothing to do with the Z as it currently exists. Wouldn't it be simpler to just extend the J to Bay Ridge for a brief period each rush hour than to create a new service, give it the same letter as an entirely unrelated service, and largely duplicate an existing service that doesn't need a service boost?
"That would be doable, but it has nothing to do with the Z as it currently exists. Wouldn't it be simpler to just extend the J to Bay Ridge for a brief period each rush hour than to create a new service, give it the same letter as an entirely unrelated service, and largely duplicate an existing service that doesn't need a service boost?"
Actually, it doesn't matter whether the 95th St.--Nassau service is called Z, J, or R. I felt that as a rush-only service, it would be least confusing to call it Z.
"The N also runs local in Manhattan currently -- at well more than 3 tph."
You're right about that. What I had in that plan was a redistribution of and addition to the present tunnel service, with 6 R (4th Av., Broadway), 6 Z (4th Av., Nassau), 6 W (4th Av. local, Broadway local), and 6 M (Brighton Nassau) = 24 tph (12 Broadway + 12 Nassau). What I don't have (but what you probably do have) is the present schedule NB tph morning rush, but my best guess is 9 R + 7 N + 6 M = 22 tph.
(What I don't have (but what you probably do have) is the present schedule NB tph morning rush, but my best guess is 9 R + 7 N + 6 M = 22 tph.)
You're just about right. This is published by the MTA. Go to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/schemain.htm
Actually, it doesn't matter whether the 95th St.--Nassau service is called Z, J, or R. I felt that as a rush-only service, it would be least confusing to call it Z.
It's a rush-only extension. There others in the system, and they all keep their original letters: M (to Bay Parkway), 5 (to Brooklyn), B (to the Bronx). And the Z is already taken, and it means something entirely different.
I wouldn't object to a J extension to 95th. As for the schedule, the first Z of the day would be the first train not to go to 95th and the last Z of the day would be the last train not to go to 95th. That simplifies matters and it ensures that the extension doesn't get in the way of skip-stop.
You're right about that. What I had in that plan was a redistribution of and addition to the present tunnel service, with 6 R (4th Av., Broadway), 6 Z (4th Av., Nassau), 6 W (4th Av. local, Broadway local), and 6 M (Brighton Nassau) = 24 tph (12 Broadway + 12 Nassau). What I don't have (but what you probably do have) is the present schedule NB tph morning rush, but my best guess is 9 R + 7 N + 6 M = 22 tph.
I don't have any exact schedule, but I'm referring to Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, City Hall, Prince, 8th, 23rd, and 28th -- the J/Z and M doesn't help those stations, and 12 tph would be insufficient at many of them. (Think about it. Some of them are a lot busier than any of the 4th Avenue local stations, but you're giving them the same 12 tph as the 4th Avenue local -- except that the 4th Avenue local north of 36th has a full 18 tph.)
you can't reduce the "R" train.... it is the only line that goes to express station right after Queens Plaza.. It's an important line..
N Bwy
What do you mean? The terms "R train" and "express" do not mesh well unless you are referring to an express train passing the R. Do you mean the R is the first train to reach a transfer point in Manhattan?
I wasn't really recommending the R to Astoria plan, just showing the possibilities of doing such a thing and I think it won't be worth it. As for 4 Av express riders, they could take the N to Canal then transfer to the Nassau line but the drawback is they may have to transfer again at Fulton St or Essex St for connecting trains so I see what you're saying.
Of course the R CANNOT be the only 4 Av local line on weekdays at its current headways.
Not a bad idea, though what I think the MTA should do is have the W replace the M as 4th Ave/West End Local in Brooklyn and have the B run express on the West End and 4th Ave lines. The W could also be the Broadway/Astoria Local as well. The M could then be free to run on the Brighton to Coney Island during rush hours only.
"You already jave the N and W at Astoria however if its like that, might as well let those special R's run via Astoria express to Astoria Blvd in the middle track so it won't clog service but you could run it to Ditmars too but it doesn't stay at Ditmars very long."
I prefer the current service...
N Bwy
Astoria
I sure hope they don't remove the "W"... otherwise I'm moving.. I just can't go back to the days when I use to wait for the "N" and it was too crowded to ride... And I just thought they were favoring "R" riders over "N" because it go to Forest Hills... and we know what type of people live their.
N Bwy
Astoria seems to need two services, unless they do increase the current N service if they take the W away in 2004. Hopefully, if the B returns to the West End after the MB reopens, they will keep the W as an Astoria to Whitehall train.
When did the M stop going to Brighton anyway?
When did the M stop going to Brighton anyway?
The first time the Manhattan Bridge was closed. That was around 1986 I think, give or take a year.
In April 1986 when the first Manhattan Bridge project started, the M was moved to the West End on a "temporary" basis and was supposed to return to the Brighton once the bridge project was done in 1988 but as you know, it is *STILL* there :-P.
But the Manhattan Bridge has been undergoing "temporary" closures since then. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the M would still be "temporarily" rerouted?
Yes it would be reasonable to assume M's are still rerouted and you know how "temporary" reroutes go in the MTA.
Was there a public hearing for the M reroute? Or if they keep it on the West End, will they have to hold one? That is the real way of knowing!
I have a feeling that a public hearing MAY come up in the future for the M in So. Brooklyn, we'll just have to wait and see.
April 1986.
And it had nothing to do with the bridge. The M was rerouted to West End because the Brighton line was reduced to only two tracks skip-stop service from 1986 until 1988 because of reconstruction.
The D started at CI, the Q at BB. Each of them made all of the express stops and they alternated the locals:
D: Neck Road, M, H, Beverley
Q: U, J, Cortelyou, Parkside
That's what was told. Truth is that the Brighton express tracks were usable all during the first northern bridge closure. There was no major work done on the Brighton line during this time outside routine track replacement.
I would take a hunch and believe M will return to Brighton if W trains remain in service. I never heard of the Q train returning to 6 Ave. Far as I know, Q train was always a Broadway train until the Manny B south side was closed for repairs. I think the 6 Ave Q was only temporary.
Should that be the case, Q returns to 6 Ave, V train eliminated, maybe the R142A announcements will finally be legitimate on the 6.
That leaves W to remain, and M to return to Brighton. All we can do is wait and see what happens.
And the Q should remain a Broadway train, now and forever.
I doubt the Q would ever go back to 6th Av. Remember, it's the F that now goes through 63rd. Putting the F back in 53rd and running the Q through 63rd local to Continental would force many Queens local riders going to Queens Plaza, or wanting the E onto the R.
They could send the F over the Bridge and extend the V to replace it if they want 3 6th Av. services again. But since the aim now seems to be to have more balanced loading on the Bridge, that is very unlikely.
Or how about F via West End and cut the B back at 2nd Av.?
Or how about the F local to Forest Hills and the Q express to Hillside... zillions of possibilities...
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This afternoon, I'm standing at East 180th looking to head down to The Hub. A #5 pulls up, consisting of Rebirds. The lead unit, #8826, had very prominent graffiti sprayed on both sides of the car, lettered "New York" all over the sides and doors. A couple of youths at The Hub who were getting on the train took note of the car's condition and said that the 80's were coming back.
I noted to myself that there were at least thirty R142s stored at East 180th that could have been used in place of this set. And I bet that there also had to have been a married pair set of Rebirds that could have been used in place of #8826-8827. Why this set went out on the road I don't know. I hope it wasn't cynicism on the part of whoever was in charge, figuring that these cars were on their way to South Carolina very soon so what gives.
Never ascribe to malice what can be attributed to incompetence—or in this case, probably bureaucracy.
I would bet money that the person responsible for putting the trainset in service didn’t even know that the cars had so much graffiti. Unless the TO/Yard switcher/someone/… complained that there was a mechanical problem, into service it would go!
It’s hard to work against the inertia of a large, sclerotic bureaucracy.
I was under the impression that trains with even the slightest grafitti were not allowed to go out.
I've ridden Redbirds on the 7 where some light graffiti was visible on the interior. I suppose that's not a surprise given Corona Barn's lack of caring for the aesthetic condition of them. Thought the 5 Redbird story was too far. I thought the MTA's policy on such an issue was top priority.
It is, but at this point MTA is hard-pressed with weather-related work, and the Redbirds are, after all, headed for the junk heap or the reef. So, other than safety and mechanically-related stuff, more than likely they are focusing on work involving the stainless steel fleets.
Actually, no, the Redbirds are generally being kept clean.
So this was somebody not paying attention...
Either that or it had just happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe they needed to get it to a different yard for cleaning???
They must be Yankee fans. Check out the #4 train. If that line is clean as a whistle we might have a case. Actually, I thought when you mentioned disgrace I was hoping you meant what the TA has done to my Sea Beach.
Next stop on the fabulous N Train----New Utrecht Avenue.
It is ironic that the Met logo looks like a "tag" I saw on a station the other day. And those bums sure played cellar dweller baseball in 2002, looks like more of the same for your bunch in 2003.
At least Yankee fans know how to have a good time, before and after the game.
I was ON that train!! You might have seen me at the front window. I'd boarded it uptown at 180th, rode car 8888 to Dyre, and then stood at the front window all the way down to 59th. We passed 180th downtown around 2:00 or so. Apparently the snowstorm had cancelled the weekend Bronx GO. This particular Redbird had the black 180th stickers, unlike the ones that had been working the weekend 5 'shuttles' below 149th. They had the orange Mosholu stickers.
I did notice the graffiti when moving up to the front car at Dyre. So did two employees, one of whom commented that "the seventies are back". Seems like weekend Rebirds on the 5 aren't all that unusual; another one passed the other way at 138th.
In any event, I can't pass up a chance to ride a mainline Redbird, knowing each time might be the last.
Couldnt the V be extended to serve the sta?
There aren't switches that can allow trains to switch tracks. That's why the Grand St. shuttle utilizes only one track rather than two.
Because of the single track operation at B'way/Lafayette and Grand Streets, if train "X" is late, then train "Y" will be made late and so on.
The V could have two branches, with alternate trains serving Grand. If one train was late leaving Grand, the sequence would get messed up with two consecutive trains at 2nd, but nothing catastrophic would occur.
Another idea I had, much more timing-sensitive, would extend both the B and D to Grand, but not all trains. Here's how it would work. Say the B and D are each on 10-minute headways, with a 5-minute dwell time required at the terminal. The B scheduled to reach 34th at (e.g.) 9:00 would then continue down the SB express track to Grand, arriving at 9:10. At 9:15 it would head back up the SB express track to 34th, stopping at the SB platform at 9:25. In the meantime, another B train will have arrived at 34th at 9:10 and headed back uptown at 9:15.
The D would run similarly, in both directions on the NB express track.
Practically, this would be difficult. I mentioned the sensitivity to timing. Passenger confusion is an issue, with trains running in both directions on both tracks, and some B's and D's terminating at 34th. The express tracks probably aren't signalled for traffic in both directions, and even if they are, doesn't single-tracking of this sort require the use of a baton?
That won't work no matter how many way's you put it.That's why they made the shuttle instead of extending the B and/or D to Grand St.If that were REALLY possible then they would've done it.
There's no scissors switch at Grand St.
Also known as a crossover or interlocking. :) That's the first time I ever heard it called as a 'scissors switch.'
This was relay to me from a person attending the NY Toy Fair;
"I was at toy fair on Wednesday and spoke to the Life Like rep. They are doing another R17 in silver and blue for the general public and then will have another R17 in red bird scheme about 6 months later. As far as more subway cars in the futrue the answer was just wait and you will see."
Hmm ....just wait and you will see.......
I wonder what that could be?
Phil Hom
Anyone who ever operated a locomotive, are the desktop style or stand style more comfortable? The desktop seems to have a better layout since a control stand has the controls located all on one side. Most engineers prefer the stand, what do you think?
I don't have much experience on AAR desktops since the closet I came to was the NYCT Republic Locomotives, which don't really count as a locomotive and didn't complete training at NJT to work the EPICs. I hated the 10 position electric throttle desktops in the TA, there wasn't enough room to rest my elbows and the pushtop button deadman caused discomfort to my wrists. Perhaps there are engineers with experience that could best answer that one. I prefer the brake valve stand over electronic controls though, I felt more in control over equipment when I can get the feel and sound of the air. It took me a while to get used to the old P-wire equipment as the brake rheostats were screwed up and you never knew what the train would do in a given brake position. In a nutshell, I want to be lapping away with my heavy gloves on that brake handle.
Amen ... I've done the joysticks, and had the "pleasure" of running an SD80-MAC with the AAR gear and the computer screen. The 142's and 143's bring in this operating characteristic and I've gotta agree. If it don't hiss and turn, it's very hard to really feel what you're doing. Next time Branford rolls out 1689, ya gotta be there. It just feels SO good. :)
While I am NOT at present a locmotive engineer, I do have quite a few friends who are, and I do get to ride the cabs often. Most seem to prefer the old fashioned stand. One of the guys (who runs a Metrolink F59 all the time...) says the desktop controls are like "driving a motorboat" (referring to the throttle...) The one thing they DO say is that it's nice to have a place to set their lunch.....harder to do on the stands than the desktops!!!
That's right! Due to flooding, the Mount Vernon Square station was closed. Trains ran through the station without stopping, but Yellow Line trains terminated at Gallery and then ran light to the pocket to relay. I saw a train of Bredas with its lights out on the northbound track, so I figure that was how they did it. Didn't see how they signed the train though. PIMS displayed that the next Yellow Line was going to Mount Vernon Square at the MCI Center mezzanine.
Was this that leak through the station walls that they haven't been able to fix yet? That station is a sieve, WMATA's equivalent of Chambers Street here in NYC.
wayne
I wasn't aware of any super big leaks at Mount Vernon Square, especially since that station is cut and cover. I don't normally go up that way as it is. The worst leaks are on the Red Line between Farragut North and Medical Center. Are those the ones you are thinking of?
Wait a minute... Mt. Vernon Sq has the problem of flooding, despite groundwater damage being more evident at Foggy Bottom-GWU... which had no problems? Weird.
I am sure other stations had problems. There was quite a leak at Judicuary Square which was somehow seeping through one of the escalators. You could also see quite a bit more water than normal on the walls at Van Ness-UDC. I am sure many stations had problems, Mount Vernon Square had the most.
Federal Triangle had the same leakage problems only three years after it was first opened -- the side walls at platform level near the exits were already developing a lovely rust color, though that may have been in part to the amount of aboveground construction in the area and not due to any natural water source that WMATA hadn't accounted for during tunneling.
Does anyone know when did the Myrtle Avenue/Fifth Avenue EL BMT stop running on Brooklyn Bridge? Also can anyone furnish me with the closing dates of the following stations: Park Row, Sand Street, and Adam Street.
Thanks a bunch.
The 5th and Fulton stopped running with Unification, June 1, 1940. The Myrtle & Lexington Ls lasted until March 5,1944, and Park Row, Sands Street and Adams closed same day. Trolleys then shifted to the former L tracks and ran over the BB until 1950.
Thanks for the great info!
The Myrtle & Lexington Ls lasted until March 5,1944, and Park Row, Sands Street and Adams closed same day.
Why would service have ended during World War II, when presumably there was very high demand for service?
This fact is misleading. Truth is - only the Brooklyn Bridge segments of the Myrtle and Lexington was terminated March 5, 1944. The 5th and Fulton Els had of course, stopped running in 1940, leaving the Lex and Myrtle the only routes on the bridge from 1940 to 1944. Story that I've heard was that the old terminal structure at Park Row was demolished to provide scrap metal for the war effort. Myrtle and Lex el patrons at Bridge/Jay could transfer to IND subways or trolleys to continue the trip to Manhattan. The trolleys switched to the el r.o.w. in the center of the bridge, but turned on a surface level loop at Park Row that was devoid of any shelter or amenities. The trolleys continued for six years, one day (service ended on March 6, 1950).
El service continued, wholly within Brooklyn and Queens, until 1950 (Lex) and 1969 (Myrtle).
Still, I believe Peter raises a valid question, and one which has bothered me.
The trend was toward de-emphasis of Park Row since the Dual Contracts. The BRT initially expected to strengthen the importance of Brooklyn Bridge by including it in its Brooklyn Loops system. This didn't happen. The completion of the Nassau Loop in 1931 was another blow, and Ashland place, had it been built, could also have moved traffic from BB. A fire at Sands Street was also supposed to have been a blow to use of the Brooklyn Bridge complexes.
Now taking the opposite point of view--at Unification the only significant line that was lost to Brooklyn Bridge was the western part of Fulton Street. That was VERY significant, but still Brooklyn Bridge carried non-competitive traffic from most of Bedford-Stuyvestant, Ridgewood and Middle Village, and the outer Fulton Street Line on new Fulton-Lex trains.
Point is, World War II kept many less important traction lines running. Steel was an important wae commodity, but even more so were petroleum and rubber (the Japanese controlled virtually all the sources of natural rubber).
So the timing (1944) was odd. LaGuardia had to know that cutting Myrtle/Lex/Pitkin/Liberty from the Brooklyn Bridge would be an eventual death blow to Brooklyn elevateds, and this is what happened.
Paul: The loss of direct service over the Brooklyn Bridge by the rapid transit and streetcar lines lead to the creation of one of the most interesting bus-subway transfer points on the system.
A free transfer to the B57,B62,B67,B69 and B75 buses at the IND High Street Station was available for passengers who purchased a token at the IND token booth at Broadway-Nassau Street and then had to request the transfer at the same time. Sometime in the late 70's the transfer for three of these buses was moved to Jay Street and continued until all subway-bus transfers were discontinued. The buses also issued transfers to the subway at Jay Street which I believe bore the restriction that they could only be used as far as Broadway-Nassau Street though of course there was no way to enforce this.
A second free transfer was from the IND Jay Street Station th the BMT Bridge-Jay Street Terminal on the Myrtle Avenue El. It also was issued at Broadway-Nassau Street at the time of token purchase. The transfer carried the legend that it was good for the Myrtle Avenue Line for stations from Navy Street to Sumner Avenue. In the reverse direction BMT stations agents from Sumner Avenue through Navy Street would issue a transfer to the IND at Jay Street. This transfer bore the legend that it was good on the IND only as far as Broadway-Nassau Street. The tranfer privilege was transfered to the B-54 bus when the el stopped running in 1969 and continued until almost all subway-bus transfers were discontinued.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, my memory of these transfers was different in two aspects: (1) the transfers from the buses to the IND were issued departing at High Street only. (2) the transfers from the Myrtle L were issued departing at Bridge-Jay, not entering at lower Myrt stations.
My memory is from 1957 on. Perhaps there was a different arrangment earlier?
Paul: If you have a copy of the 1961 or 1963 subway maps look at Note A in the upper part of New York Bay (Map reference). I believe that the token booth that one had to use at Fulton Street is the one at the north end of the IRT Lexington Avenue Line platform.
The transfers from the BMT to the IND were issued at Bridge-Jay Streets Terminal only during the midnight hours when there were no agents on duty at the stations from Sumner to Navy. The reason that they were issued by the agents was to prevent passengers from Broadway north from abusing the transfer priviledge. Considering that the fare was only a nickel at the time the BOT must have been a real bunch of cheapskates.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Paul: If you have a copy of the 1961 or 1963 subway maps look at Note A in the upper part of New York Bay (Map reference). I believe that the token booth that one had to use at Fulton Street is the one at the north end of the IRT Lexington Avenue Line platform.
The transfers from the BMT to the IND were issued at Bridge-Jay Streets Terminal only during the midnight hours when there were no agents on duty at the stations from Sumner to Navy. The reason that they were issued by the agents was to prevent passengers from Broadway north from abusing the transfer priviledge. Considering that the fare was only a nickel at the time the BOT must have been a real bunch of cheapskates.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
My recollections, from the late 60s/early 70s, was as follows:
(1) B57/62/67/68/75: Bus driver issued departing passenger a bus-sized transfer coupon at High St. IND A train stop. Coupon accepted for entry into subway - printed on coupon that it was good only to Broadway-Nassau (of course, no way to enforce this on NB trains). Returning to Brooklyn, a specific booth at Fulton St/B'way issued a smaller ticket upon request with a token purchase. The ticket was only good on the bus routes upon exiting at High St. Of course, this practice effectively enforced the Broadway-Nassau restriction for any round trips.
(2) Myrtle El: Transfer ticket to IND at Jay Street stop issued upon token purchase at all stations from Sumner Ave. to Navy St. Accepted at Jay St. with restriction that it was only good to Broadway-Nassau. Returning, ticket had to be purchased at Fulton/Broadway Nassau using the exact same procedure as for the High St. buses noted above - but of course a different ticket was issued for the Myrtle El tranferees. After Oct 1969 the B54 bus offered the same transfer privileges, and it worked exactly like the High St. bus transfers.
I remember taking the LL out from Manhattan to Myrtle Wyckoff in 1969 to ride the el a few months before it closed. At that time, at least, the transfer ticket was issued to departing riders at the Jay Street station for transfer to the IND.
The Sumner-Navy booths may also have had transfer tickets, but I never boarded at any of those stops, and I know there were transfers available upon exiting.
I'm sure you're recollections are correct. Probably the transfer issuance was relaxed a bit in the last months of the Myrtle El south of Broadway. My personal experiences with the IND transfers only involved TA buses at High Street and Jay Street. I never made the transfer from the Myrtle El to the IND at Jay Street. The one or two times I tried the agent told me that the transfers were not available - had to be issued between Sumner and Navy upon fare payment, as was noted on the subway maps at the time.
Wasn't service on the bridge eliminated because of a fire decimating the Park Row terminal?
I doubt that. My understanding is there was a fire in Sands Street Loop Terminal which prevented its use and they decided not to repair it, but this was not, in itself, a sufficient reason to close bridge service.
whats the real differance between them beside exterior appearance
I have seen them coupled together alot
they sound the same to me
whats the real difference???????
The 38's were the first subway cars with sliding Motorman/Conductor windows. Nice feature for the workers...
"The 38's were the first subway cars with sliding Motorman/Conductor windows. Nice feature for the workers..."
The R-143's have brought back the drop sash, that was eliminated starting with the R-38. What goes around comes around !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, I don't get that! Now it hits me way I thought the R-143's had a 'older' look to them. It's that drop sash window....dumb idea to go back to the drop sash as they were a pain for the C/Rs to use.
The problem with those side to side cab windows (R38 to R46) is that they don't stay open when the train starts and stops. You'll get your head chopped off if you don't hold them with your free hand.
"Yeah, I don't get that! Now it hits me way I thought the R-143's had a 'older' look to them. It's that drop sash window....dumb idea to go back to the drop sash as they were a pain for the C/Rs to use"
I think you mean "retro" look. Ponder this, just like the R-32's:
1) 60ft carbody lenght
2) Drop sash in cabs like the R-32's.
3) Longitudinal (sp?) seating similar in color to the R-32 and 38's when they were new.
That's all I can come with now.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R32 was made with superior construction, while the R38 doesn't had good construction, the R32's have better lightning, and have black flooring, while R38 doesnt, and they also have different manufacturers. I take the A/C Lines everyday, and I see them coupled all the damn time.
And Im guessing your new, right?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
How often is "all the damn time?" I see it about once every two to three day.
I take the A/C Lines everyday, I should know, the C Train most of the time is made up of R32 and R38 in consist, and then other times its mostly solid R32.
It used to be real easy to tell the difference. The doors on the 32's including the storm doors used to be blue which contrasted really well with the silver. The 38's always had silver doors. The 32's were one of the nicest looking cars at the time. I remember when the 38's were first introduced. They started on the E & F trains which were only R1-9's then. I used to take the E or F from 179th then as I took the Bee Line from Hempstead to Jamaica and couldn't wait to ride the new trains. Well after a few rides I wanted to go back to the arnines!
Now I think both trains are ugly, especially without the destination signs in front. The small single letter sign in front just looks out of proportion to the car. But seeing the 142 & 143 I guess they plan on keeping it that way.
The R32/R38's front displays are 'Flipdots'. They are also used on some of the older buses in the system.
The R142/143 use LED displays that are far superior.
They may be superior to the R32-38's (I agree), however, they still suck. It was much easier and faster to recognize a rollsign when a train entered a station, than that stupid red light.
Well, what can you do? Email the MTA and tell them you want rollsigns on those trains! Will a sheet of looseleaf suffice? I'm sure I can get some of the T/O's to color it in... :)
Make color prints on a paint workshop on your computer and create the bullets and paste them on the LED spot in the front ;-).
I don't mind 'em being flip dots or LED. I just think they should put the destination up front.
I have seen them coupled together alot
they sound the same to me
One (R32) has the whistle while other (R38) don't.
R-32's were the only LARGE fleet of New York cars ordered by the Budd Company.
Budd was a pioneer of stainless steel train carbody construction and held many unique patents. R-32's have a completely stainless steel body (except perhaps for the chasis and the original steel door panels). The St. Louis Car Company R-38's, on the other hand, have stainless steel sides, but have painted steel roofs, which are now rusting as badly as those on the redbirds; this same problem also plagues R-40's and R-42's.
Budd never won a large contract to build cars for the NYCTA prior to the R-32, since stainless steel cars cost more than LAHT steel cars. I think whatever extra money was spent for these cars initially has paid off handsomely; indeed, these cars will outlive most of the other stainless steel cars of the same era.
R32-made by Budd[3350-3949]
*superior construction
*first stainless steel cars since R11
*has better lighting
*has fluted sides
R38-made by St Louis Car[3950-4149]
*made of carbon steel
*first car to have sliding T/O window
*first car to have built in A/C
*last car built with marke lights
*doesn't have fluted sides like R32's
Actually, the lighting was better only on the lower-numbered R-32s -- the R-32A cars (3350-3649) had the then-standard lighting design you can still see in the remaining R-33WF cars on the Flushing line. The R-32s (3650-3949) had the exact same lighting design as the R-38s, with the back-lit ads in place of the lighting in front of the advertisements. They also shared the modified axleflow fan design with the R-38s and the non-ACed Slant 40s, which was far less effective that the original design for everyone except possibly people 6-foot-8 and taller who were standing up in the car.
The R-38's have fluting halfway up.
And which arrangement is superior is a matter of opinion. I think the R-38's looks much better and IINM it gives off more light.
OO, I left that out. In aesthetics, I agree with you but on lighting NO WAY! If the R32 had the original layout after the GOH; besides the 10 GE cars; then it would be some good competition.
I agree, the R-38s do look much better. The R-32s look like garden shacks, IMO. As to whether or not they wil last as long...well.
Peace,
ANDEE
whats going to happen when it opens back up
I wonder if they will keep the on broadway
and the W on west end or possibly make it an west end express
what do you people think
Welcome.
This has been a frequently-discussed topic. There are lots of opinions, some based on analysis of train frequency and passenger travel destinations, some based on sentimentality and (frankly) bigoted opionion.
Some recent threads: this one, and this one. You can use the search feature to find many other spirited discussions! There are almost half a million postings to review!
John
The W on the West End as an express would be interesting, but here are some problems with the W as a whole, once the bridge reopens:
The M is always a problem. Ever since it was thrown off the Brighton, it is a train serching for a southern terminal. I don't feel the M would be necessary on the Brighton all day (or even Rish hours), and there is no place to short turn or terminate the M between Broad Street and Brighton Beach.
By the same note, even though during the day 9th Ave is a great place to whort turn M's, and it does provide extra service for West End Riders rush hours, when the B is brought home to the WE, and if the W was to remain (as a WE local), there would be too much service on the West End. As for a WE express, I think the the "WE local stations" are just as busy, or almost as busy as the "WE express stations". Express service may actually be a hiderance to the line, and do we really need three total services on the West End?
MY ideal plan would be to return the B, D, N, Q back to where they were before the bridge was closed.
As for the M and W:
Option one: Leave the M on the West End, and either eliminate the W, or use it as a Astoria to Whitehall, rush hour only train.
Option two: Bring the B back to the WE, leave the W there as a second local train (giving the WE both Broadway and 6th Ave service. Then you have the M again, with no place to terminate. I feel Chambers is a terible place for the M to terminate, because it banishes the M from the important Fulton Street hub, giving M trains riders bound for either the West Side IRT or the 8th Ave line a real problem. Someone once recommended turning 8th Ave on Sea Beach line into an Island platform station giving the M an place to terminate, while allowing it to run through the tunnel, and providing extra 4th Ave service. I kind of like that idea.
Actually, 9th Avenue, 36th Street, Bay Parkway, and Stillwell Avenue are the four busiest West End stops. An express just might work! I'd like to see it, for selfish reasons: I don't know why, but I find the West End a real drag, even though I have no problem with most other locals of the same general length.
An express just might work!
WHO STOLE DAVID'S PASSWORD?! Did I hear correctly?
Seriously though I have to agree about the West End being a very boring El. I don't hate the West End, but it is my least favorite south Brooklyn line. The W running express sure would be interesting, I said that right away. Well, maybe they should try it. If the W ran express, there would be enough room for for the M as a local, however, I think there would be a problem for the M terminating at Bay Parkway with the W running express, and I don't know about sending it all the way to Stillwell. I doubt there would be room to have three services terminating at the West End Platform at Stillwell. So again, what to do with the M. How about terminating it on the lower level of 9th Ave? That would get it out of the way of the B/W West End local/express service, but then would leave the B as the only train serving the local WE stations. If you take the M away from the WE (making it always terminate at lower 9th Ave, the local stations will loose rush hour service if the W runs express, and they are left with only the B stopping at the local stations.
The M may be a line searching for a terminal, but it does do it's job on the West End to Bay Parkway. I don't see how they could just take it away without increasing B service, or keeping the W local. But again, do we need three services on the West End, and is it even possible to keep the M to Bay Pkwy if the W is running express. It's a tricky situation, but I'd love to see the W express!
I seriously doubt that three services would even be considered for the West End, obviously it is not needed. As you know B headwyas was pretty awful pre 7/22/01 and the M helped out BIG time. Now if you could increase the B to every 5-6 minutes in the rush hour, then W service could run via Wets End express in the PEAK direction. As for the M, terminating it on 9 Av LL won't be such a bad idea but are the ramps still there from 4 Av; it should be; but it IS out of place on West End & moving it to the Brighton is better for it, had some of its best years in southern Brooklyn there but the red flag is turning them around and Ocean Parkway would be a good candidate but that means the crew at BB would have more work on their hands so that's probably out :-(.
(Then you have the M again, with no place to terminate. I feel Chambers is a terible place for the M to terminate)
Non-rush there's plenty of room to terminate the M at Broad.
Rush hours, it really isn't a huge cost to extend the M to S Brooklyn and give those folks one sparse service to Nassau St. It can go to Bay Parkway if justified by usage on the West End Line, or otherwise just to 9th Ave.
Correct. Even thought I planned to, I did forget to mention that the non-rush M's should go to at least Broad, when I mentioned that Chambers was a terrible place to terminate the M trains during the week.
ANd yes, I think the M should still go to it's home at 9th Ave at least during the rush hours.
The "logical" southern terminal for the M is 95th St. Unfortunatley there's no place to store trains at this location. That precludes using 95th as the M's terminal.
Welcome to Subtalk R38IND4LIFE, hope you enjoy it here. There are LOTS of Manhattan Bridge topics in the archives but I don't know how to command links.
I think the M should be done away with,or rerouted uptown.The J/Z line could handle traffic to the Nassau street stations and south Brooklyn.The J could traverse the southern lines with ease,and the Z could make the short turns from Broad street.A small incress in cars for the ENY Yard could help.....
Not a bad idea. Convert the V to 8 car, 60 foot trains, and combine it with the M. The only station that would loose some service would be 2nd Avenue, and it would give Broadway El riders direct mid-town service. After expanding the hours of the Z's operation, the J would terminate at Broad, and the Z would run to Bay Parkway during it's rush hour runs. During the day when only the J runs, it could either be extended to 9th Ave, or just terminate at Broad.
Sometimes you get very lucky.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/queens/nyc-sub0222,0,63193.story?coll=nyc%2Dmanheadlines%2Dqueens
Isn't it always stressed officially (and unofficially) not to peer so close? I see this done all the time.
You're right.
There's something odd in the story. It says that the man is being treated at Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan - yet he was injured at Jamaica-Van Wyck on the E, which is just about underneath Jamaica Hospital. Why haul him all the way to Manhattan?
Maybe he was transferred there - Or Jamaica ER was on diversions - or the reporter just got that detail wrong.
???
That is normal for serious injuries. Bellevue and KCH* have the best emergency room trauma centers. As a cop in Bklyn whenever we had a serious injury from a shooting or accident especially with possible loss of limb we had them brought to Bellevue.
* KCH except the day Yankel Rosenberg was brought there of course
Thank you for posting that.
I picked up pediatric patients from Jamaica ER for transfer to LIJ from time to time. I was always impressed by the concern and professionalism of Jamaica's ER with the kids. Their heart center is also very good.
I didn't see the original Newsday story but according to the 'official' report - it was an 'F' train at Briarwood-Van Wyck.
I was at Jamaica Van Wyck the other day (didn't get off there but saw it) and I noticed that about half to 3/4 of the platform was PITCH BLACK. Lighting failed either from snow or it just plain failed. Anyone been there recently? Are the lights back up and running?
Jmaica Van Wyck was designed to get a fair amount of natural lighting. Thay doesn't work well when the skylights are covered with several inches of snow.
The electric lighting in that station, as well as the other two Archer Av stations, consists of flourescent lighting following the platfor edges, and spotlights in the ceiling.
Were these not working?
If by natural lighting you are referring to the skylights that abut the Van Wyck Expressway, forget it. Not only are the skylights dirty, they are covered by graffiti and brush. NYCT seems to have forgotten about cleaning the skylights.
They do tend to accumulate that.
Daily graffitti removal is required. Not removing brush means the maintenancer crews are slacking!
Half of the eastern portion of the platform was pitch black. It was probably the skylights that were covered in snow. I don't quite remember if the platform lights on that part of the platform were working. If they were, they didn't illuminate the area that much.
But I think it's pretty likely snow was blocking natural light from entering station.
>>> I think it's pretty likely snow was blocking natural light from entering station <<<
That shouldn't cause the station to be "pitch black" since those skylights are dark every night whether they are blocked or not. The flourescent lights must have been out also.
Tom
I agree, luckily he was able to pick himself up but got a broken leg; who knows what could of happened had he not done that.
He would probably be dead.
I know right.
The Manhattan bound E comes in Jamaica-Van Wyck from a curve, yet the person who peered doen the platform, did not bother to listen the train annuncicator (the Next Train Indicator display that BEEPS real loud, and in some cases like Newkirk Ave/Brighton line, you can hear the buzzing from the other end of the station.)
This man was indeed very lucky, God bless him. Still, he should know better to listen for the beep near the mezzanine upstairs, instead having a reckless disregard for himself and inconviencing other riders. Imagine if this happened on the L platform at 14th st-Union Square at 8 AM on a Monday. As it take is one person to do something dumb and screw up as many as 20,000 to 50,000 riders.
The buzzer at the mezzanine serves two useful purposes: To alert customers that a train is arriving within the minute AND as a safety factor in preventing a person from putting over half of his/her body over the edge of the platform. I always listen for the buzzer whenver I can, I know no buzzer sounding, no train is coming. Can't do that at every station though.
I got a big feeling NYC is so desperate to improve things with their highway system, that I would not be surprized if they went Big Dig with highways like the BQE which they have preliminary plans for already, and other major highways. They already said that the Cross Bronx Expressway is no longer meeting its capacity but surpassing it instead. So that either needs to be widened, or sent below ground. Robert Moses, was smart, but he had no common sense, and serverly underestimated how much traffic there would be. The L.I.E. might also be looked at for being sent underground, it would be amazing if this occured in our life times, along with a Second Avenue Subway. Just imagine walking down 3rd avenue and brooklyn and no longer seeing the B.Q.E above us or the old rusting structure? It'll be weird.
GOD NO!!!!!!
Look at Boston. Over a decade of construction for under 10 miles of highway, and they're not even done yet!!!!!!! It's a disaster waiting to happen.
the geology of Boston and of New York isn't quite the same, though
The Cross Bronx is a Parking lot all day long right now! It needs at least SIX more lanes to handle the traffic. It's so bad that transport crews at MetroCare Ambulance are SUSPENDED if they get stuck on the XBX. They're supposed to stay OFF the XBX unless assigned to a call on it...Now that's BAD...So maybe a Big Dig is just the thing..or maybe the XBX just needs a decent burial...;-)
My Father always said that, The CBX was 10 years outdated the day it opened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Andee, since I am a pilgrim when it comes to the Bronx, could you or someone tell me when the XBX opened and where it runs from beginning to end. How close is it to the Major Deegan Expressway and are they parallel? No kidding, I am interested in your borough and want to shake my ignorance of it. Surprise! And you thought I had no interest in the Bronx.
"Surprise! And you thought I had no interest in the Bronx."
Good, how about strapping you to a bleacher seat, next to the Bleacher Creatures, while you wear a Mets t-shirt, or better yet, a Bosox shirt and matching cap.
Welcome to da Bronx!!!
How did you know? Yes sir, the Red Sox are my favorite American League team. In fact, since they haven't won a World Series since 1918 if they should get into a World Series with the Mets again, this time I might even be inclined to root for them over the Mets. Well, maybe.
Right..........
The CBX opened in the early 60s, but wasn't fully completed until the late 70s (IIRC) with the completion of the Bruckner interchange on the eastern end. It runs E/W and intersects with the N/S Deegan on the western side of the Bronx, at a point approx. 1 mile north of your favorite ball park. There is a website that gives much more info. I will try to find it for you when I get home later. BTW, a lot of the CBX is open cut, like your favorite train line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gents ... read all about the Cross Bronx Expressway.
Robert Caro in "The Power Broker" also spends a great deal of time discussing its construction. It displaced many thriving neighborhoods and Caro argues this is what lead to the Bronx's downfall.
--Mark
Thanks, Mark. That was the link I was looking for for Fred.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> It displaced many thriving neighborhoods <<<
TRUE, I lived in one of those neighborhoods, I wiil never forget watching the explosions for the excavations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Mark, that's what I'll do. Andee was helpful,too. I now have in my head the geographical positions of those places.
See, I knew you would come through Andee. The next time I come to New York we have to touch base, maybe take me to one of those good Italian restaurants you have on Arthur Avenue, then a game at the Stadium====on me. How's that sound?
VILLA Avenue's even closer to where he is, and just as legendary. We're gonna make you move east yet. :)
I love to come east to visit. The problem is the cold and rain. I can't stomach either and today we have a humungous storm out here so even though we realy need the rain it does dampen your spirit. I can live some of it though. What I can't abide by is the cold. I don't know how you guys put up with it, and I can tell you that even as a kid I always looked forward to spring. Even riding the subway in the rain is a bummer of the first sort. But, God willing, I plan to make many trips to New York in the future but not in winter. Stay warm.
Moo! Well, with SEASONS, you APPRECIATE them all that more. Christmas without snow and howling winds is like a ride in a subway lead car that has no foamer glass. But most of all, the deadly cold upstate makes people forget about political affiliations and WATCH OUT for one another, regardless of voter registration stats. There are no dems or repubs when the power goes out, just huddled masses. It's refreshing. :)
And when it gets up above 32 degrees, we peel off our clothes and run up and down the street. At 40, it's SUMMER!
From what I understand, the Gowanus over Third Avenue was built on the support pillars of the old Third Avenue el. Not all of it but some portions. So Third Avene has been el-ified for a lot of years.
You're correct, but some additional details are in order. The original Gowanus Parkway, opened in 1941, used the support pillars of the old BMT Third Ave. El from 38th to 65th Sts (closed in 1940). It was four lanes and restricted to autos. In 1964, a new Gowanus Expressway, the current elevated highway, replaced the old parkway with a new six lane freeway open to all traffic, as part of the V-Z bridge project. So the BMT Third Ave. el lived for another 24 years after its original demise, but ironically enough carrying private cars.
"From what I understand, the Gowanus over Third Avenue was built on the support pillars of the old Third Avenue el. Not all of it but some portions. So Third Avene has been el-ified for a lot of years.{"
That section just had the original "el' structure decked over for the original Gowanus Parkway. The roadway was just four lanes with no real shoulders for emergencies. To build the Gowanus Expressway, the old "el" structure was demolished and a new wider structure was built to handle six lanes of traffic. No trace of the old "el" remains.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sheesh. As you and Andy pointed out, no trace of the original el pillars remain. I've walked under that thing many times. Yet I always looked at those support beams and thought they WERE the original supports. Of course they couldn't be.
What Moses really wanted was for the entire Bronx to be a 5,000 lane expressway complex to serve Long Islanders and Westchesterers. The maids and nannies could live in subsidized housing built around the support piers of the highways.
:0)
"What Moses really wanted was for the entire Bronx to be a 5,000 lane expressway complex to serve Long Islanders and Westchesterers."
Hmmmph. And here I thought they were called Westchestians....
He also wanted to obliterate Fire Island so that Staten Islanders could go to Montauk Pt quickly in their cars only.
An expresss bus from St George to Flatbush Avenue Terminal and a Montauk Station shuttle would have sufficed.
Once he had one stupid idea in his head, nothing else mattered, even turning the South Bronx into a bowling alley.
It's a bold vision (or is it a flight of fantasy)and one I share.
I see all expressways/parkways submerged and on the surface a mixture of parks, bike/walk/jog trails, busways and even a little bit of developement.
That's what Boston's Big Dig ids all about...
< Robert Moses, was smart, but he had no common sense, and serverly underestimated how much traffic there would be. >
I don't think you get it. While Robert Moses had no common sense, his own roads generated more traffic to make them obsolete so as to have an excuse to build more roads and bridges. You aren't going to cure traffic with more roads any more than to cure an alcoholic with more Scotch.
That's a great post.
I'm with Joe V. We've past the point where building more roads will solve anything. Burying them may improve the looks of an area but won'tdo anything help with transportation. The only solution to future needs is to get people out of their cars and into mass transit!
I agree entirely, though the gowanus is falling apart. it needs to go in a tunnel. why not add a little capacity while they're at it?
I'd love to see some big new tunneling around town... the gowanus and a cross harbor freight line would be a great start.
I agree, mass transit is the good mode of transportation :-). However, that's going to be a monumental task.
think you need to rethink your post there fella.... we dont need more roads,we need more RAILROADS....AND we don't need some crazy project like the BIG DIG to make matters worst insted of better. More subways are the in order for the day,now.Places in Bklyn,Queens,Bronx,light rail could be built as a feeder lines to some subway routes...much can be done,and should be done,but we dont need new highways,peiod.
All of these highways are over capacity and the structures are shoody, especially the Gowanus; tear it down & build it underground already [of course the $$ is not there]. As for the Cross Bronx, it should be two levels, one underground and the current one that would increase capacity and reduce the moving parking lot it is at times. It would be weird NOT seeing those overhead highways assuming they were turned into underground roadways :-0 but it'll be better in terms of increasing the speed limit and more capacity.
As for the Gowanus, tear it down and forget it. Make like it's the West Side Highway and make it a boulevard. What good does increasing Cross Bronx capacity do when the GWB, Throgs Neck, and Whitestone bridges are at by definition of fixed capacity. There would be no greater throughput.
Doubledecking the LIE in Queens accomplished nothing, neither will double-decking anything else.
"As for the Gowanus, tear it down and forget it. Make like it's the West Side Highway and make it a boulevard."
And what do we do with all the traffic coming from Staten Island and Long Island that's being dumped into the local streets ?
Bill "Newkirk"
What do we do with it now ?
"What do we do with it now ?"
Clog the current elevated roadway. Clogging the streets would be a disaster.
Bill "Newkirk"
SQUEEGIES! :)
You could build the new underground Gowanus Expwy FIRST then when its complete then you start to tear down the old structure in sections.
The latest work on thev LIE improved throughput and added 12 acres to Alley Pond Park, reuniting several fragments of parkland.
That was well worth it (don't know if that job is quite finished yet).
Replace the highway lanes with LRV lanes, and let them keep their cars at home where they belong.
Elias
I don't know the Gowanus yet, but isn't the CBE choked with long-distance trucks going to LI? We don't have a rail freight plan yet, like LA got when they did the southern transit corridor to Long Beach. LA ahead of NYC on getting people off the roads?
I don't know the Gowanus yet, but isn't the CBE choked with long-distance trucks going to LI? We don't have a rail freight plan yet, like LA got when they did the southern transit corridor to Long Beach. LA ahead of NYC on getting people off the roads?
People the way to go is not more roads or big digs.Republicans want more roads ,which = more cars which =more gas and oil profits.They way to go is Mass Transit. Instead of a big dig of 3 rd ave aka the Gowanus why not a transit super project.First start with cros Harbor tunnel makes it 6 tracks 4 freight tracks and 2 subway.Then the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR to be converted to subway as a cross town connector aka it connects whith most other lines that will take you to Manhattan.Now for the real project the CBX,anyone who has evered used this so called expressway knows its slower than the J going to Crescent.Solution is simple TOLLS. Instead of tolling 100 year old east river bridges and pissing Brooklynites off ,Toll the CBX heavily I am talking NJ turnpike heavy.Watch how traffic dissapates,EZ pass profits will go thru the roof.Lastly under the CBX is to be my big dig directly under the CBX to be dug a Freight train route with ties to L.I. I know this would never happen because NIMBYS,POLLS,and Unions.Plus it would cost at least as much as the war on Iraq will.Also all of you guys interested there will be an NYC succession meeting at the TSQ Marriot on Monday 2/24.
[Also all of you guys interested there will be an NYC succession meeting at the TSQ Marriot on Monday 2/24.]
Anybody can show up?
I've read thru this whole thread. One common theme is that more and bigger highways beget more traffic, and become overcapacity soon enough.
Be that as it may, something has to be done with the highways. My own take on this makes the Boston Big Dig look tiny by comparison.
With the Gowanus, most of the traffic is coming from the VN Bridge and headed to either the BB tunnel or north into Queens. I'd build what is essentially an extension of the VZ bridge, HEAVILY TOLLED, as a tunnel replacing the Gowanus connecting to the BB tunnel, and similarly, as a tunnel underneath the present BQE, with a tunnels branching under the LIE and GCP way out into eastern Queens, or even into Nassau. There would be few exits and virtually no on ramps (save for emergency vehicles).
The Feds would pay 80% of this, with Albany paying the rest via the tolls.
Third Ave in Brooklyn would become a tree-lined boulevard.
the T.A claims that the headway on the C- line is to long
what they should to to increase headway is to run all R38 on the C- line
the A would get all R44 and some R32 no R38's on express
next is the V-line
the V should have have r40 slants like it did when they first started it
that waould take the strain off the R-lines car assignment therefore giving the E mostly all r32's
the only problem with that is moving the R40 slants to Jamaica
what do you people think????????
The only time R40s ran on the V was during the test to see if the R, G, and V could all terminate at Forest Hills during rush hour. The V is never to run anything other than R46s.
Getting away from this a little, the all stainless R32's should be used on outdoor routes where newer (and corroding) St Louis-built cars are now.
the T.A claims that the headway on the C- line is to long
what they should to to increase headway is to run all R38 on the C- line
the A would get all R44 and some R32 no R38's on express
next is the V-line
the V should have have R40 slants like it did when they first started it
that would take the strain off the R-lines car assignment therefore giving the E mostly all R32's
the only problem with that is moving the R40 slants to Jamaica
what do you people think????????
the T.A claims that the headway on the C- line is to long
what they should to to increase headway is to run all R38 on the C- line
the A would get all R44 and some R32 no R38's on express
next is the V-line
the V should have have R40 slants like it did when they first started it
that would take the strain off the R-lines car assignment therefore giving the E mostly all R32's
the only problem with that is moving the R40 slants to Jamaica
what do you people think????????
I think you shouldn't post the same thing 3 times!....There is no reason to run anything other than R32 and R46 cars on lines assigned to Jamaica Yard. There are well over 1000 cars assigned for maintance to this yard. The more diverse models of cars assigned to a particular maintance facility, the greater parts inventory you need.....If the TA feels C service in inadequete, then they will run more service based on ridership stats! The reason why the C runs both R32 and R38's is because at the end of the day when all C trains layup, Pitkin is the inspection barn for the R32's and 207Yd does the inspections on the R38's. The dispatchers at 168 St. and Euclid can "spot" particular trainsets to wind up at the appropriate maintance facility if in fact a particular train has inspections on it. Finally, the TA does not assign cars to make the railfans happy. The V never had R40's assigned. On Saturday 9/8/01, the day the new service plan was tested, the only reason why the R40's were on the V was because they were availiable since the line they ran on Saturdays did not operate.
Exactly. While I think the C at 10 minutes is kind of inadequate, that's the best they could do since we are still in a car shortage and siphoning A train R38's to run on the C to increase service does more harm than good. The R40's has the V rollsigns but the R46's were chosen instead, ending the # of years that the F was exclusively R46.
I don't recall seeing any R40 Slants on the V. Saw an R32 once, but no R40's.
When they tested the V they used slants.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was one day, 9/8/01, that the V test took place using the Slant-40s. It was originally supposed to continue into the early morning hours of 9/9, but it was cut short around 9pm due to "operational concerns" (as told to me by a TSS at W4th Street). It was the same day as the Hoboken Festival and the NYD/ERA 207 Shop tour. I did all three.
I rode an R40S on the V on the day they tested the current service pattern.
Yesterday while waiting for an uptown Duce at 42nd St I saw 6688 ride the rails once more heading downtown. Good to see that number ply the IRT rails once more. Too bad she has to be a "B" car.
Pardon my dripple but I'm found of that number. Kinda like everything named Enterprise.
I'll go you one better. I rode on it a little while back, I posted on it at the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw it last fall on a 5 train. Didn't ride on it, though.
I rode 6688 on the 2 from the BusFest to Times Square last June.
Got to admit those 5 car sets have to go. Singles would be so much better.
#6688 2 7 Ave Express
I might have to agree with you on that point. If one car should be wrecked, then the entire set becomes unusable.
#3 West End Jeff
So whenever you rent a car I expect you go to 'Enterprise Car Rental'? :)
Too bad you weren't carrying a camera.
Nah, 2 six packs for Beer. Going to a poker party all the way up at E225th on the Duce, thank gawd the GO wasn't in effect.
I have photos of it from a SubTalk field trip, near the end of the page.
Based on the length of time it takes to replace a simple escalator bank at Boro Hall (2 years and counting), I'm just wondering whether it is realistic for me to think that I will ever ride a Second Avenue subway in my lifetime, even if they put shovel to ground tomorrow. After all, I'm already 38. Perhaps the SAS is a legacy my 14 month old son will someday enjoy.
depends on if we get the olympics...
if we do, it will open around 2010
if we dont... 2015 or later
I dont think that it is a good time to decide when it will open. at least wait till construction starts
My grandchildren, who aren't even born yet, won't see the Second Ave. subway. In fact, I have 2 teenage sons who don't have girl friends yet, let alone married!
The upper section could be built in four years if the TA had the funds and really wanted to do it, and the politicians were willing to tell people they had to make allowances to get the job done. Remember the 1/9, rebuilt in one year.
There is no reason, other than selfish political choices by rotten political people (some already made during the boom), why the LIRR to GCT and the Second Avenue Subway above 63rd cannot open simultaneously by the end of 2008. Do I think it will happen? No. But it SHOULD happen, and there is no excuse for it not to.
After 2010 all available public funds will be going to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and the construciton of new nursing homes. Anything promised after 2010 is a lie and a fraud. We should be investing now to be prepared for the burden of the elderly later. Instead of handing out goodies and running up debts.
(The upper section could be built in four years if the TA had the funds and really wanted to do it, and the politicians were willing to tell people they had to make allowances to get the job done. Remember the 1/9, rebuilt in one year.)
1. The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion the upper section is what's really needed. The rest would be nice, but is probably a lower priority than other transportation projects (and I live right off lower 2nd Ave!).
2. The 1/9 is unfortunately not such a good example. That was 1200' of destroyed track, above ground once the demolition was done, involved the building of no stations, involved no competitive bidding, was cost plus fixed fee, and it took 6 months.
Actually, when I rode through the new tunnel, it looks like they built the Cortlandt Street station, it,s sealed off with metal false wall.
Arti
"it looks like they built the Cortlandt Street station [1/9], it's sealed off with metal false wall"
That may be right - but if so they only put platforms back, there is no street-level station because the 1/9 "tunnel" is actually in the Ground Zero hole, with no way of pedestrians getting to it from the outside world. What gets provided as a station there is dependent on the decisions about the downtown transit hub.
Yes, the Cortlandt Street shell has been built, but that's it, just the shell. There's nothing else there but the spce where it will be, no tiles, stairs, etc.
I beg to differ on the stairs. My last time through, a door near the north end of the NB platform was open and I could see a staircase. Whether that staircase will ultimately be used by passengers hasn't been decided yet, I'm sure, but it's there.
Interesting. You obviously are right as you have seen it. I was just going by what others have said here.
Which escalator do you mean? The one leading from the mezzanine down to the Brooklyn bound 2/3 or the one leading down to the M/N/R? And if you look at it often, you'll notice that not only does the completion date on the sign posted on it get extended, but the STARTING DATE sometimes changes, at least for the M/N/R. It says they started October 2001, but I don't think I've been on that escalator since '99.
This is a little like all those years we said "if they can put a man on the moon, why can't they...", in reverse. But it was easier to go to the moon than, say, fix health care, because we had a concentrated goal and one institution focused on the science of rocketry. The escalator department has a concentrated goal and one institution focused on the science of messing up maintenance contracts. However, if politicians and the public finally WANT the SAS -- and they will -- and they don't have the escalator department write the contracts, it'll happen.
2004 - feds appropriate $$ for SAS
2005 - 2007 - New York piddles $$ away
2010 - New York comes begging again
2015 - feds appropriate more $$ for SAS
2011 - 2014 - New York piddles $$ away once again
2015 - feds finally tell New York, once and for all, to get lost
Perhaps the SAS is a legacy my 14 month old son will someday enjoy.
Not unless your "son" is actually a Galapagos tortoise.
You're a raving optimist, Peter.
Yea -- I would have said a Redwood or a creosote bush...
I once carried a redwood home on a rush hour 2 train. (It was still a baby. I won it at PC Expo.)
Cool! Redwood Sequoia sidewalk trees in Manhattan!
"A Tree Grows in Broo ...ehh... Manhattan".
Better watch the shallow West Side IRT....
Although it's probably a better chance that a Redwood would survive in New York than for any of us to see a 2nd Ave subway. But it's true, it will take the lifetime of a baby redwood to become a speciman before anyone rides under 2nd Ave.
I once carried a redwood home on a rush hour 2 train. (It was still a baby. I won it at PC Expo.)
Was the Redwood on a Redbird?
Sure was, with two fingers holding the tree and three fingers holding the strap.
That must've been one small redwood. Amazing what it's possible to grow into.
Or a bristlecone pine.
I'm 45 and I do believe i will see the Stubway (63-125) running before I'm retirement age. Not the full-length 2nd avenue though. I think we're talking 2030 or so for that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Perhaps the SAS is a legacy my 14 month old son will someday enjoy."
Maybe you are right, when you son has grandchildren, he can take them to the line's opening.
So, whatever happened to George and Jane Jetson and those helicopters? We've got a couple of ports for them on the east side already. And it's not like the locals can't afford them. So the congestion happens a few hundred feet higher up ...
Ru ro, rorge...
I was at Jamaica this morning and saw two LIRR switchers pulling M-7's on flatcars. They were heading westbound. I took photos, and I will post them online soon.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Correction, heading EASTBOUND.
Today was a foggy day in NYC, and it made for some interesting photos. Highlights of the photos I took today include an M-7 delivery and foggy Jamaica scenes. Enjoy!
07 LIRR M-1 (Page 3+)
03 LIRR M-3
10 LIRR M-7
02 LIRR C-R
03 LIRR DM30AC
03 LIRR Jamaica Station
04 New York & Atlantic Rwy
Take Pride,
Brian
Thanx. Nice photos. Where are the M-7's built. I know the new subway cars come from Plattsburg, I've seen a few of them on the old D & H mainline north of Albany but I haven't seen any LIRR cars.
I'm not sure where they are built. But hopefully someone else knows and can answer your question.
---Brian
last tuesday on the C :
3628-3669-3892-3893-4129-4128-3421-2558
3628-3669- Mismatched Phaze 1 R32 with black floors, 3669 used to be 3668
3892-3893- R32 GE(why do these cars not have grab irons on the b ends?)
4129-4128- R38(4128 has different style # plates)
3421-3558- Mismatched R32 Phaze 1 with old floors
has anyone seen a better salad train recently?
Correction
3558, not 2558
It's better than seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains.
Or this abomination:
You had to bring that up.:)
Thank my lucky stars I never, ever saw R-10s intermixed with anything else. I would have thrown a screaming fit on the spot.
How the heck did they manage that, with the different door controls?
wayne
I assume the same way they did it on the IRT when it was a normal sight to see R12's & R14's coupled with later cars. They never had the trigger door cars (12's & 14's) in the middle conductor's positions. I don't know how it worked but it was a common occurance.
Electrical train line ... the door operators were electrical, door engines on the older cars were air but the valves still ran by benefit of relays. It worked. :)
R10-R22 had three position door controller switches, closed to de-energize the door unlock/ door open trainlines, unlock (middle position on the R15-22 handles, first trigger on R10/14) and open, which energizes the unlock and door open trainlines. R26-R42 used button controlled momentary relays to open and close doors using the same trainlines as the older circuits. Pre-GOH, the R40-R42 before automatic zoning used two keys to run door controllers, with a skate key to establish the conductors position (zone)and the R10 key to feed the buttons. Mixing the trains should have been possible as the car's door engines regardless of class would receive the same signal to do their thing. One thing that was possible was to have SLRs opened on closed cars equipped with momentary relays if the door controller car zoned was in unlocked position. I recall playing with mixed R17/33 consists and the entire front or rear consists would show guard lights in unlocked. The R33s were not capable of holding back indication. The only difference I know of between the R10s and later cars is the DO1/2 and DU1/2 fed carbon brushes on one and magnet valves on the other. The door control was basically the same until "Vaporization".
For the longest time I was under the impression that the R-10s could not run with anything else because of their pneumatic door engines. Train Dude was kind enough to set the record straight. One thing I was curious about was how the doors on the R-10s would behave when coupled with later cars. Would the doors unlock when the key was turned and open when the button was pushed or lever moved?
Add to that, I also thought the door engines R-12s and R-14s had been modified so they could m. u. with later cars. Not so. Those cars had electric door engines from the factory.
AFAIK you could have R-10s in the middle of a train of mixed cars. The trigger boxes would activate all the doors just fine.
The answer is YES ... I rode them mixed with 32's many many years ago. Now you see another reason why I liked the Arnines for operating. They wouldn't DARE mix those with other cars. They COULDN'T. Electrical portions were different. :)
True, true; I've seen many salad bowls and shmorgasbords in my travels, but one thing I've never seen is an R-1/9 class car mixed in with anything other than its own species.
wayne
You spoke too soon....see here.....
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=452520
That's why I loved working them. Didn't need a sausage consist for THOSE to buck and chuck, each car behaving uniquely. That set of 16's and the 32's up front was the only time I ever had the "pleasure" of mix and match, it's fun to do, what MTA wears is up to you ... and actually it behaved fairly OK.
I'd LOVE to have seen a pair of 10's in there though. That'd be amusing.
What about the time you had to contend with levers as a conductor? Was that on a solid R-16 train, or was it a mixed bag?
It was THAT one ... I thought they were 27/30's but HAD to have been 16's since that's what was at my position. It was a D. :)
Not to mention the braking and propulsion systems were totally different. I feel sorry for 1575. Poor thing, looking like an R-10 while having R-7A guts. It must have been the butt of jokes among both the R-19/s and R-10s.
Hard to say ... you'd see it out there though. I personally never saw it in the lead, but I've seen pictures of it there here. The truly sad thing is that most New Yorkers were non-plussed seeing it in an Arnine consist given the variety of cars that often made up rush hour put-ins ... "if it rolls, it goes." :)
I never saw 1575 in revenue service, period. Had I seen it, chances are my reaction would have been, "What's that car from the A line doing in THAT train?"
1575 actually probably did as many wheel turns as any other car of the period ... I saw it every now and then and it supposedly made the rounds. What I never saw was it in the lead or tail position, always somewhere in the middle away from the conductor position as well. Second car, fourth, ninth, etc ... but I saw it every now and then.
1575 spent its final years on the Eastern Division. Funny thing - in every photo I've seen except one, it was always a lead motor.
I heard that 1575 received different journal bearings during its metamorphosis. Sansone's book says it had Babbit bearings, but it doesn't specifically say whether or not they were roller bearings.
Babbitt bearings were often used in cars on the crankshaft years ago. No rollers, it was a softer alloy used as a journal type bearing and they were a BEAST to repair. I can see why it didn't catch on in railroading, wonder even why they BOTHERED? :)
I only rode the Eastern division for fun, mostly the Myrt though I did a few obligatory trips out to 168th just to SEE it and ride the line. On the IND though, 1575 was kept out of the way any time I ever saw it, never saw it as lead or tail car. Then again, them Jamaica folks were always zany. Wonder if they whipped it onto the end to convince folks on the line that they weren't riding the OLDEST cars on the railroad. I think some REAL R-10's made their way out there too, probably 1575 was placed on the point just to tease and torture the riders. Heh.
Well a group of 30 R-10s went over there in 1954-55 to give personnel a taste of operating 60-foot SMEEs in anticipation of the R-16s. Karl B remembers them well. A few R-10s also ran on the Canarsie in the early 80s.
Yeah, once the air conditioned jobbies came to the A, the "A trains" migrated as a majestic symbol of blight spreading through the system. There's a FEW people who liked the R10's, I wasn't one of them. Nor were a lot of other motormen that had to endure their "more POWER, Scotty" and their other antics. And in their final days, they looked like HELL. Ran like it too. Those things shoulda been in a Wild West Rodeo ... :)
Well, William Padron and I are probably the two biggest R-10 fans around. I guess I was lucky in that out of all the A trains of Thunderbirds I rode on, and there were many, none ever broke down.
Now if the R-10s had had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, they would be at the top of my list, hands down. As it stands, they're in a dead heat with the R-1/9s.
Yeah, they had their good moments too. I respect Mr. Padron immensely and that's why I feel so sheepish about dissing the R-10's. But they were real dogs to run for whatever their "marvel points" may have been. And many of them were in incredibly bad condition by 1970/71. That they managed to remain on the rails for another ten years is just nothing short of amazing to me. They were in worse shape than the redbirds.
That didn't last long. A lashup with anything but another R-10 was banned because of the delay the R-10 doors open and close. They're air doors. The R-12/14's didn't have that problem when they mixed them with anything on the IRT. They didn't have air doors.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wow - I didn't know that. No wonder the Thunderbirds stayed by themselves (hooray!). How much of a delay was there?
"How much of a delay was there?"
I don't know, maybe a few seconds longer than they should have. Seconds count when doors open and close.
The lashup from hell:
Two R-10's, a pair of R-40 slants (without gates), a pair of R-32's, a pair of red R-30's and two R-11's. A consist like that make you and William Padron have nightmares !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Remove the 32's and substitute a pair of R21's as cars 5 and 6 and you'd absolutely be over the top. But I must admit, the 11's were a nice touch. :)
"Remove the 32's and substitute a pair of R21's as cars 5 and 6 and you'd absolutely be over the top. But I must admit, the 11's were a nice touch."
Swap the R-10's and R-11's so that they are in the conductor's position. You know, having the C/R in between the R-10 and R-11. I think it would have worked, but the sight of it would have driven the foamers nuts !
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. That WOULD be amusing indeed. I did manage to get me a set of 16's with one pair of 32's thrown in one fine morning on a northbound, and the 32's were at the lead. Had all SORTS of funky indication wonderment on that run. Fortunately I leaped ahead on the relay and someone else got stuck with that dog of a train. That was the closest I ever got to a smorgastrain while working there.
But I think the step plates were at a slightly different height between the 10's and the 11's ... not much, but enough to have left me more unbalanced than usual. :)
". I did manage to get me a set of 16's with one pair of 32's thrown in one fine morning on a northbound, and the 32's were at the lead."
R-32 and R-16 mix ? The sublime and the rediculous !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, musta fooled a LOT of people that their D train was a real one, until the first pair of cars whizzed by. 16's RARELY went to the Bronx, that was one of them. I was a conductor at the time, and the LOOK on people's faces was priceless. Look Ma, WATER FAUCETS in the cab! :)
I wonder how the CPW express run went. The R-32s no doubt wanted to sprint, but the R-16s probably held them back.
Don't really remember, so chances are it wasn't all that different. I was too busy on that run musing that the IRT had taken over the IND (the 16's looked TOO much like IRT cars, even if a bit wider and a spare set of doors) ... they were completely out of place headed towards da Bronx. :)
Well, in a way you're right. The R-16s and R-17s were practically first cousins. It would have been interesting had Shoreline gotten 6398. 6688 would have had an SMEE playmate.
Never say never, 6688 could still get a playmate, somewhere down the line. 6398 and 6688 would have made an interesting mix. Big brother gets to play with it's smaller sibling!
-Stef
Last time I saw 6398 was a number of years ago and she was in pretty fair shape though unable to run on her own down in Kingston. I know that they roll her around with their diesel for fantrips here and there but last I heard, she was still in need of a good amount of work. She LOOKED fine though.
Pardon my OWN partialities, but I'd much rather see 1575 coupled up to 1689 if a new car were to come along. I'd say the chances of THAT happening though are about equal to acquiring 6398. :)
Hey, if Shoreline were to acquire 1575, you'd have to surgically remove me from the step plates between the two cars.:)
As for 6688 and 6398, why not? They could and would m. u. perfectly.
Nah, you can ride out there all you want - I can just drop the breaker on ya. Safety foist, ya know. :)
In which case I'd say, "All right, Kev, what's the big idea?":)
Now that you spilled the beans, it won't be such a surprise anymore.
Yeah I know, the look on my face was priceless, etc., etc.
Heh. There's other cutouts besides that breaker. As Jimmy Durante once said, "I got a million of 'em ... ha-cha-cha-cha."
Party pooper.:)
Moo.
OK ... OK ... OK ... I'll pass DC0 to you while in motion when we do the milk run. :)
Just how many ways are there to cut out doors on the R-1/9s? I know about the drum switches and the cab breakers. Inquiring minds want to know.
Milk run - cute, very cute.:)
Those were the two ... and you're welcome. :)
^^^"Pardon my OWN partialities, but I'd much rather see 1575 coupled up to 1689 if a new car were to come along."^^^
GMTA and signed for the D or the GG.
;-) Sparky
... or BOTH! Remember, I'm not so picky about the destination signs. All I want is 90 pounds of air and the ball to drop for me. :)
Breakfast is on you at the next gathering, if you want the green ball.
>GG<
;-) Sparky
I'll settle for a lower yellow. :)
With the "economy" where it is, we're still not sure if we're going to have the scratch to get there as yet ...
Or an A, occasionally.:)
Nah, we'll wait for 1575 for THAT signage. After CC, GG and D, the most likely signage would be "E" ... :)
ARRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
No, not the E! Anything but the E!! I still refuse to set my sign box for an E.
I think I'm going to be sick.
The E was mostly old girls too, just like the CC and the HH ... if it went to WTC or the Rockaways, it was a niner-niner. :)
Can't change the reality, but that's where they lived. Sometimes on the D, DAMNED rare on the A ...
You're on a roll, aren't you? Niner-niner indeed.:)
My intense dislike for the E began on September 23, 1967, the same day I became an A fan for life. It had everything to do with the "E-8th Ave. Express" side signs on the R-1/9s. When the train we were on stopped at 23rd St., I had a stroke. Some express, I thought. To this day I will not take an E south of 34th St.
Now Queens was another story. My first E ride there was on May 11 or May 18, 1968. We boarded at Union Turnpike. Of course, I didn't know the E (and for that matter the F during non-rush hours) ran local on the outer portion of the Queens line. When we stopped at 75th Ave., my blood was starting to boil. Here we go again, I thought. Then our train switched over to the express track and man, did it move. I still remember when we hit 36th St. The motorman gave it juice at that moment, and the gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C. Those I-beams were a blur.
You're right about old timers on the A. I can count on one hand the number of prewar A trains I ever rode on, none up CPW. I have a hard time picturing an R-1/9 sign box set for an A, even though I set my signs for it now and then. Right now it's still signed up for a D, albeit to Coney Island.
It's funny - I still associate the R-1/9s with the D. Maybe it's because that was the first IND train I ever rode on back on April 30, 1967.
Sorry for your bad experiences with the E ... I hear it's an even worse ride these days. But that's where the old gals hung out, even on the D they were usually ONLY rush hour put-ins, the Brightliners had pretty much taken over on the line by then. CC (also a rush hour jobbie) was ALL Arnines with the exception of an occasional 42 that got stranded somehow on the line every few days. Back then, you'd be able to tell your train by WHAT pulled in even if the marker lights and route signs weren't enough of a clue. Just like slants on the F. When you saw a slant with the robin's egg blue E up front, it was special. :)
I saw slants on the E fairly regularly when they were new. Of course, I refused to ride on them BECAUSE they were running on the E. We did ride on them once on an F train, from 34th to 42nd, because my sister liked them. And she is definitely not a subway enthusiast.
As for R-1/9s on the D, yeah, once the R-32s took over, I almost never saw any oldtimers there. We got them a couple of times on Saturdays at 34th St., and naturally it was a treat to look through the railfan window and see only tunnel lights. Ditto for R-1/9 A trains.
And yes, if you saw R-10s back then, you knew it was an A train. I got fooled once, on September 5, 1967. We were at 59th St. and needed to catch a s/b A. Well, there was an A sitting there just waiting for us to board, but at the time I didn't realize those teal-and-white cars with the nifty racing stripe ran exclusively on that line. Plus I didn't see any signs and didn't know about the roofline signs. That train left without us, and as the last car went by, I looked at the bulkhead signs and said, "What luck - THAT was an A train!" Those were my exact words, and I remember that to this day. We wound up taking a CC to 42nd St., and it marked my first ride at the railfan window. Or was it on the D train we took to 59th? One of the two, anyway.
Oi vay! Oi gevalt!!
You don't suppose there's a picture of that ultimate borgaschmord train anywhere, do you?
"You don't suppose there's a picture of that ultimate borgaschmord train anywhere, do you"
No Steve, I made that up as the ultimate lashup from hell. But in those days, anything was posible when you're short of equipment.
Bill "Newkirk"
Quite true. Hey, I just thought of something: if you took two cars of this class, two of that class, etc. until you had 10 cars representing five different car classes, you'd have a Noah's Ark train!:)
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
Throw in a couple of P-wire cars, and it would have TRULY been an adventure in bucking and hissing. :)
Don't forget coupler adapters.:)
Nah, CHAINS. :)
How about a length of rope?
Too CSX ... NY Fire Laws require metal. :)
Now *THAT* is real surprising!
Well I can beat that! Jeff Rosen isn't the only one that gets lucky with his camera and is at the right place at the right time.
Just today I was standing on the platform at Flushing Avenue on the Broadway El, and this beauty pulled in.
I was just stood there with my mouth open before I snapped the photo. I was equally surprised that they installed a switch between the Manhattan Bound track and the Queens Bound track right over the express track just west of the station! ...Not to mention the huge addition Woodrow Hospital looks to have built blocking the view of the original part of the hospital........
Click here for a full size image
Cool. Where was that taken, 76th Street?
Nice trick, though.
I do notice that this "picture" was combined from at least two different pictures. Notice the vertical line between the first set of R44/46's. Nice computer trick though. Flushing ave elevated has three tracks, NOT four.
What you don't trust me? R46's on the Eastern Division?
I do notice that this "picture" was combined from at least two different pictures. Notice the vertical line between the first set of R44/46's. Nice computer trick though. Flushing ave elevated has three tracks, NOT four.
Hehe, well actually, it is indeed one of Joe Testagroe's photos at Flushing Avenue on the Broadway El, during the construction of Woodhull Hospital....
I plea the 5th though on how the R46, etc got into my "photo" though.
It's a little early for April Fools Day, IMHO.:)
"3628-3669-3892-3893-4129-4128-3421-2558"
2558 ? I know it's a typo, but an R-68 in that mix wins first prize.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not recently, but a salad train I remember seeing years ago was an R27/30, R16 and R32 mix on the "QJ". And let's not forget the smorgasbord trains on the IRT, mixing anything from R12 up to R33 in one consist.
wayne
Smorgasbord (or borgaschmord, if you're a Mason Reese fan) trains on the IRT were no big deal IMHO since everything from R-17s thru ML R-36s looked very much alike. The silver-and-blue scheme homogenized things even more. On the IND/BMT, with each car class looking vastly different, it was a different story. I never saw slants intermixed with anything else, bot looking at the photos on this website, it appears they stuck out like sore thumbs just as much as R-10s or R-12/14s intermixed with later cars.
How many of you SubTalkers remember New Jersey Transit's $10 Systemwide unlimited tickets on weekends? It was in the early/mid-80s, and it got you unlimited travel between "any and all" NJT lines and stations! I used them to travel all over the system, including the day they retired the Lackawanna M.U.'s in 1984. As one NJT conductor put it, they were good for all stations between "Hoboken and Hong Kong!" Think they'll ever have that again? Originally it was part of a campaign by NJT to fill up empty seats on weekends...
I believe they still sell it, but don't market it, and costs around $26.
They still do. From NJT's website:
"Weekend Passes (Special Excursion Passes)
These one-day passes are good for unlimited travel within NJ TRANSIT territory. Passes are sold at ticket offices only and are priced at a fixed fare that is the same regardless of distance traveled. Two children ages 5 through 11 may travel "free of charge" with each adult carrying a full-fare special excursion pass. Additional children ages 5 through 11, senior citizens, and passengers with disabilities may purchase discounted special excursion passes. Passes may be purchased in advance and can only be refunded prior to their validity date. They have no refund value on or after the validity date. Special excursion passes are not valid to/from Metro-North stations or on Amtrak trains."
While surfing the Ninth Avenue page of the site, I came across the enclosed photo:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i12000/img_12924.jpg
While its a nice, recent shot of the Ninth Avenue station, I think the little girl facing the camera was caught with one of her hands in an unfortunate position. Perhaps the photo could be cropped to give her some dignity?
Why? I don't think so.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think a blue curtain might suffice. :)
I thought I saw a calico cat in evidence. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
If you think I'm going to take THAT one, we gotta have a beer. :)
fer shure.
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL!
That station looks like the subway in the bad old days! Exactly when was that photo taken?
During the March of Dimes fan trip last September.
I was there with Piggo12 that day.
Station is in worse condition than when it was in use by passengers since now it only in use by MOW, and has 'stuff' stored on the platforms.
Elias
That's the lower level of 9th Ave which is abandoned anyway, and that's why it probably looks like that. Now it looks better than some of the other abandoned stations like 18th and 91st! But yes, I remember in the 70's and 80's many in use stations looked like the photo of 9th Ave above.
HUH????
If you're looking at the photo after about 10:00 pm on 2/23, I altered it. It was not very flattering to an innocent bystander.
Hi David:
I just checked the picture. It doesn't look altered. Was it?
It was cropped. There used to be a little girl in the lower right corner. Maybe you need to reload it, you could be viewing a cached copy.
David:
She's gone from the thumbnail only, but she mysteriously reappears when you click for the large version.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i12000/img_12924.jpg
See?
I guarantee you didn't read my message about clearing your cache.
My system does not have "caches." However, I did clear my history, cookies and temporary files. I then went back to the site and saw the same thing: the girl is not in the thumbnail but she appears when you click on the thumbnail and get the larger image. I am pretty sure my computer is not using an old image.
Just to confirm ... the photo *has* been fixed, your browser isn't ACTUALLY cleaning up, no surprise there - I make a living cleaning up browsers where the browser says, "oh yeah, we clean." The thumbnail AND the underlying full-size image have been "sanitized" ...
I cleared my history folder and again deleted cookies and temp int files. I am still seeing the girl in the larger image, not in the thumbnail. Why is that happening?
What do you see below?
The photo with the little girl in it.
Then it's your computer, because there is no little girl in it to the right of the pillar anymore. Very Strange.
Ok, this is getting a little weird. I think you should drop the issue. It got more attention than it deserved after the second post about it.
Just to drive you all nuts - I'm seeing the little girl also, and I NEVER opened the original post.
And I'm still seeing the little girl in the large photo but NOT the thumbnail. And I've done everything possible - cleaned out history, caches, cookies, temp internet files, you name it. And still I get the little girl in the big photo but not in the thumbnail.
Spooky.
Road Runner? If so, apparently they're keeping it. :)
The girl is gone. It's your computer. The girl that used to the left of the 9th Ave pillar is gone.
Either of two things is happening - most likely you're using Internet Explorer and your "Temporary Internet Files" are actually NOT getting cleaned (a way of life with Microsoft) *or* your ISP is caching the picture on their site through a "Proxy" (if you're on Road Runner (tm) they "cheat" by saving things on their OWN servers to keep their bandwidth costs down) ... most likely it's your browser though, it's a common problem with IE ... if you see those ads from unscrupulous spammers ("The FBI can see your files") this is the issue they're peddling. FWIW, what WE make here actually DOES clean the cache ...
But I checked, and the photos in question HERE have been changed. So what your browser is displaying MUST be on YOUR machine still, or you're looking at a cache from your ISP if you're on Road Runner. RR is the only ISP that I'm aware of that won't let you get past their cache by holding down the SHIFT key and punching reload ...
I use Comcast, and they set a proxy by default. However, once I had loaded their software (which they forced me to do before I could get network settings :-(), I immediately removed it and used standard settings with no proxies.
Can you just remove the proxy from the browser with Road Runner? Can you use a vanilla browser?
John
Yes you can, but most people are stuck with it. And when you do a request, the DNS on RoadRunner is STILL going to try to redirect you to a cached copy if they have it. We do updates for our customers on a regular basis and if I had a nickel for every RutRudder user who complains at *me* that the update is the wrong date, I'd have enough nickels to start my very own evil traction interest. :)
I have RoadRunner and I entered my old school's DNS server address in my network settings. That means RoadRunner ain't cramp'n my style, right?
THAT'S an amusing way around it, but yes - your solution would work. Of course you've blown your cover now and Wile E. Coyote, their attorney, will be knocking on your back door. :)
Seriously, do you think so? I used it for a couple years up at school while I had Verizon DSL and they never complained.
Nah, RR can barely keep their servers running, they're too short-handed and too cheap to go looking for folks bypassing their DNS servers. Gotta admit though, pretty damned clever of ya. :)
Oh, ok. I thought you meant my school might get mad at me. I couldn't care less about RR :)
Heh. Chances are the school won't care all that much - a DNS lookup isn't exactly the biggest CPU or bandwidth hog there is. They'd get miffed perhaps if you were using their proxy for surfing though.
Sheer, unaldulterated....
GENIUS!!!!!!!!!
It could also be a network cache, similar to an ISP cache. Some network servers are set to use cache versions to keep conserve bandwidth. At my old office, the consulant set the server that way because we were 45 computers sharing a DSL connection.
Yep, concept is identical and in fact, that's what Road Runner and other cablemodem providers do. I never cease to be amazed that so many cable plants use a single T-1 to provide service for ALL their customers. Without those cache servers, their customers would be better off on dialup. :)
Hehehe, what were they doing, "digging for gold"????
On the right side of the photo there was a girl, about 10, who apparently needed to urinate or had an itch in a feminine area, and the photo caught her placing her hand in "that" area.
Either that or someone directed her to do that (like picking your nose or flipping the bird)...come on -- I find it odd the way the picture was set up...kinda suspect...
Can you see it? David insists that he cropped it out in response to my suggestion. Although she is not in the thumbnail, I can still see her if I click on the thumbnail and get the larger image.
I strongly doubt that the photo was set up that way, unless there's a very sick mind involved. We're talking about a little girl.
The photo has been cropped. Delete your temporary internet files / cache and try again.
By the way, the whole West End station by station section seems to not be working. I keep getting an error message when I click on the individual stations, does anyone else have that problem, or is it me? All the other lines seem to work. Click on a station on the left, once in the link below:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/westend/
Working peachy ...
Whoop! The STILLWELL pair at the bottom are broken with two forward slashes in the URL ... ( // ) here and there ...
That's strange, but you are right, all the West Ends work again, but the Stillwell one is still broken.
Yeah, that " // " is still in there as:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/westend//bmt/stillwell/
Oh, I get it now, it must be a typo in Stillwell. That's what must be wrong with the Dekalb station one too. I guess when the pages were rearranged into the new format, some bugs got in. It's amazing how something as simple as an extra "/" can mess things up. It was worth it though, I like the new format.
Given the sheer enormity of the site, and all that's on it, it's amazing there aren't more glitches. And Dave sure fixed the other one pretty damned fast. :)
Ok I am fixing the program that makes the side link bar right now. So check again later...
That's strange.
Not working in IE, but working fine in Netscape.
I have IE and it does not work, I get an error message on all of the West End stations, but all the other lines work fine. I feel a little better that you aren't getting the West End stations either in IE, so it must be a problem with the individual station pages working with IE.
This thread sure brought up some weird problems.
I can't get the West End stations to work in MSN Explorer either, but all the other lines work fine.
It's IE (MSN Explorer is plain old IE) improperly resolving the link (even though the "shortcut to" shows the CORRECT link so it SHOULD just go there) ...
But instead of resolving the link, Aiyee wants to go to:
The error was: 404, File does not exist: /web/subway/bmt/westend/bmt-westend9.html
Heh.
Suggestion to Unca Dave, see what you've got for the root location on that page as compared to the other pages, but the relative path is causing Aiyee to make things up.
Ah, if only Microsoft followed STANDARDS, it'd be fine. Opera also resolves the URL properly, it's just ALL VERSIONS of Aiyee that don't.
Well, Dave must've fixed it. It's working now.
If I was in a similar situation (and I often am) I'd be doing the fix rather than replying to emails or messages. But yep, it IS fixed. :)
Maybe I'm a little slow or having a senior moment but I don't know what you're talking about. I honestly don't see any girl. And believe me, if there was one in a compromising position, the voyeur in me would see it.
The photo has already been cropped, removing the girl.
At east this girl wasn't nude.
I was playing with my drawing program, and wanted to see if I could make a complete subway map with it. Here is the dumbed down result (1000 pixels). The full size map is 2000 pixels, if you want a (corrected) copy of it, send me an email.
Elias
I think you want to send the Brown Line past Ninth Avenue to Bay Parkway.
What software did you use?
Serif (www.serif.com) DrawPlus 4.0 (cost me all of 9.94 + Shipping.)
Their website has the more recent editions (for more money) but I always get email or snail-mail from them offering them at a rock bottom price. (Without Manuals etc.) They have a nice line of products.
Elias
does anybody know of a map of all of the north east commuter lines?
Yes. Professer Pathfinder's Northeast USA Passenger Rail Travelers Map.
It's 6 section, double-sided laminated. ISBN: 1-885508-76-X. Lists for $6.95
where can I get it?
Barnes and Noble
amazon
walmart
Isn't it also on-line on a website at Columbia University? I believe a Subtalker creates it (a logical map, not geographically to scale). You can look at it and even download it...
It's on Joe Brennan's (of Abandoned and Disused fame) site. It's only New York City and its environs, not the entire northeast, but still very cool. There are both distorted and scale versions.
ACORDING TO THIS ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw that article.
The long run answer is better access to the whole transit system, because Access-A-Ride is a band-aid.
BTW, the blind woman should and can learn to take the subway and buses. They are free to her, and she would not have to "ride all over town" like she complains now.
Unless she has additional issues with balance or hearing or vertigo, this woman is not legitimately in the class of people who cannot use the subway, in my opinion.
There was some discussion yesterday about M Trains being layed up on the Broadway Express Tracks. I noticed today that the M shuttle service on weekends is made up of 4 R143 cars. This eliminates the need for conductors. The R143's are from the L Train and have their signage on the wall. The computerized announcements are correct for M shuttle service. The Fresh Pond Yard was nearly filled to capacity with R42's today.
Yes, when you passed by. But this morning and yesterday the R42's were not in FP Yard.
This question is regarding electrical power systems on subway platforms. What words would define the type of electrical power supplied to lighting systems on platforms? Obviously this is AC power and is not the same as used for traction. Would this AC power be called "force lighting power?"
Second question - has anyone ever heard of a "pre-station?" If such a thing as a "pre-station" exists, where would it typically be located in relation to "tail tracks?"
Thanks in advance to anyone who can supply the answers.
Hi Dave.
Those are odd questions. I've never heard the term "force lighting
power". Perhaps that's a corruption of something else? I'd
call the AC power that lights the stations either house power,
commercial power, Con Ed power, or, counter-intuitively enough,
station lighting power.
Tail tracks are an extension of the station tracks at the last
station of a line to allow additional trains to layup or in some
cases turn back beyond the end of the station. Examples would
include Archer Avenue or Times Sq on the 42 St/Corona line.
Never heard of a pre-station.
In what context are these terms seen?
The electricity that operates the AC & DC on the New York City Subway is
New York Power Authority power transmitted by Con Edison. There is
a metering system at each station, that tracks the usage of the
electricity.
;-) Sparky
To All SubTalkers:
bve.w-train is now back on the net!!!
NYC Subway BVE Trains & Routes - BVE.W-Train.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
My Bad, wrong link:
NYC Subway BVE Trains & Routes - BVE.W-Train.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
http://bve.w-train.com/index2.html
I just played the 7 Line. I was able to hit 104mph by the interlocking b4 the Main St. station and then ALMOST managed to stop by the bumper blocks at the end of the platform (I was going like 30 when I hit them). If only the real 7 express was like that (I mean with out the crashing and all).
I don't think the speed is in mph, its in kmph...
At the site, they said that there is an R62 trainset.. did they upload it? thanks
They did not upload the R62 yet, but since I am cool with them I already have the new R44 and R62 trainsets
It's KPH unless converted, I believe the 62 is KPH.
Converted as in the graphic converted.
I thought you could pick MPH or KPH. The LUL stock I was driving earlier was accuriate in that it pegged out at 45 mph.
Nah Its just Kph
It is MPH on the LU routes. If you make the speedometer graphic a certain way, you can put the marks for the MPH markings.
Here's the deal on that ... the "digital" display can only resolve to km/h whereas the "analog" meters can have the scales painted any way you want, thus you can convert km/h to MPH by simply drawing the numbers elsewhere ... most of the "trainsets" for NYCTA all are based on the original redbird panel that Ernie did a while back (R32, etc). Now Ed Yee's R68 and 142/143 trainsets are NICE ... but that's why the redboids, 32's and a couple of the others with their digital speedo are stuck in km/h ... Mackoy doesn't plan to fix it either since just about all the world uses km/h ...
the Speed is put into Kph.
Well I just played the L and I got it up to 118 KPH in the east river tubes in an R32. I don't know how fast that is in MPH cause it went way off scale, but its about the E in PER HOUR
Damn, here I was only able to get up to 270kph, and that was with my running of the DB 101 class locomotive. My geese were suitably pissed, after about the time Grand Central vanished at 100kph+, they were in the red for the rest of the trip. And yes, I too ran through the wall at Main St.
I had borrowed my brother-in-law's book on Coney Island. The photos were just fantastic. If I recall, the name of the book was Coney Island-Lost & found. A lot of great photos of the area as well as the old West End and Culver Depots, even a view of the Stillwell terminal when it was spanking brand new.
I had read how Coney Island had changed through the years, and I recommend this book for reading if you haven't read it yet.
A few months ago, I posted on Subtalk if anyone had any pics of the old Coney Island Creek Drawbridge. No one has responded as of yet. I did find the old Stillwell Ave Bridge in the book I mentioned above, but thanks to my luck, the shot was taken from the side where the subway drawbridge was at. I remember seeing the bridge as a kid while trainspotting with my father at the Coney Island Shop from the parking lot of that wholesale warehouse( forgot the name of it) that was next to the yard. Stood there for an hour watching B and N trains passing by. Since I wasn't close enough to view it up close, does anyone here have any photos of this old drawbridge? I would be most thankful!!!
Do you mean the draw bridge that is at the end of Cropsey Avenue?
And I agree that Charlie Denson's book is a wonderful book.
No, the Drawbridge that B and N trains crossed over Coney Island Creek.
Sorry, too stoopid to learn how to post pictures to the Board, but try this...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/seabeach/1040002.gif
Being stupid is not something you should be proud of.
Cool, thanks.
Sorry, too stoopid to learn how to post pictures to the Board, but try this...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/seabeach/1040002.gif
..."click once" it said...
Here's a link to the new Metra MP36PH-3S Locomotive!
Metra MP36PH-3S Locomotive
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Membership required for this Yahoo Group.
Just join and then leave! Thats exactly what I did, LOL
Sheesh, it still has a Mars light. Who'd have guessed those would have survived into the 21st century.
I think Metra is the last user of them....
Caltrain removed their when their equipment was rehabbed, first the F40's and now the older gallery cars.
Does anyone have any specs on these things? I gather since MotivePower is NOT saying much about them, they're not exactly 'cutting edge'. Then again, Metra loves to buy antiques anyway, so I guess they'll be happy with them.
This may or may not work:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?f=1&i=220841&t=220518
That's a link to a photo of Metra 402, one of the new locomotives. Good god, is that thing ugly. They've also jazzed up the paint scheme with an orange/maroon diagonal stripe across the side. Could that be an effort to combine the Metra and South Shore liveries? I don't even want to think about seeing these on the Racetrack.
Frank Hicks
I have a presentation, to make for my Second Avenue Subway Line in my school and to some organizations which are interested, I need to create a map for people to understand where my subway line is. I am asking any subtalker who knows how to use Abobe Illustrator, Microsoft Paint, Microsoft Visio or any program and know how to make real good subway maps, please, I will pay money! As much as $50! I do not have the time to learn how to make a real good map, so if there is anyone, please send me an e-mail with what you can do any how much time, I will give you whatever data is needed to complete the map and if you want to be paid, how much you want to be paid, I wish I could pay more, but I am only 17. Sorry
Surely a school project need not be a masterpiece of graphic design! Isn't the important thing the research you have done rather than the quality of the presentation?
This is school, not the advertising industry, after all. Can't you draw a map by hand with colored pencils and then get someone to scan it in for you as a jpeg?
Also, especially for school, shouldn't it all be your own work?
its my professional project for my second avenue subway, I will presenting it soon to the RPA and Straphangers Campaign and soon borough presidents. Color pencils wont do.
Yes, I can see that borough presidents would want a higher level of artistry than your high school would expect.
Yes, I can see that borough presidents would want a higher level of artistry than your high school would expect.
Do I detect a note of sarcasm? I'd thought that the borough president job is wholly ceremonial.
No, actually the politicans have vested interests in art. Bill Clinton stained more than glass.
Not to mention stuffing cigars in, shall we say, unorthodox places.
(Do I detect a note of sarcasm?)
I was serious, though not necessarily approving of borough presidents. I can imagine their sense of importance being offended if presented with a well done hand drawn chart instead of a fancy computerized graphic.
I can't do it for you but I suggest you use Microsoft Power Point, which allows you to draw lines, insert shapes, insert text, and insert photos into one comprehensive presentation, which can be multiple pages. Once you print a set multiples can be easily xeroxed. You can also electronically project the entire presentation using a laptop and a light box projector designed to be compatible with a computer.
Well you got alot of suggestions.
I built the map (See "New Base Map" below) in one afternoon.
The finished size of this map is the same as your NYC subway map. So you's ahve to take it to a commercial copy place to make a paper print out of it.
I'll send you the base gif by email. If you have a thing like PhotoShop you can add to this and then get it printed somewhere.
Elias
Check out the new look to the "Line by Line" sections on this site. Looks like David Pirmann has been busy....
I love the photo that was used for the Concourse Line section, although each "symbol" for the each line was well chosen. A job well done.....
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/
Due to problems with the canopy, south entrance of Congress Heights Metro station has been closed. Customers are adviced to use the other entrances to the station. We regret any delays to customers.
I imagine this is ice/rain related. No official word on Metro service for tomorrow so I assume we are back to 3-6 minute intervals during rush hour. Yippee! Luckily, I had nowhere to go when they were running at the decreased headways.
Geez! It seems that even the groundwater runoff from the melting ice and snow and the existing rain can't flood the trash away! Of course, Regional Rail is exempt, as they get the royal treatment (Penn Center Suburban Station concourse notwithstanding, but who is supposed to clean that anyway?)... now you see why I'm glad to live near the R3. But anyways, my big problem is the latest construction at Walnut-Locust. WHY are they bothering with that stop? There are more passengers carried through Girard, and they've not even started renovating. Same goes for the smelly, depressing North Philadelphia, the nearly dilapadated Fairmount twin set, the dingy Race-Vine and Spring Garden, and everyone's favorite high-ridership, low-maintenance station, City Hall. If anything, they should have started their rehab efforts with City Hall, and moved on to Girard, Fairmount, Race-Vine, Spring Garden, North Philadelphia, and THEN Walnut-Locust. But the southern Express train terminal gets the first bid for renovating, despite having the LEAST amount of structure and cosmetic flaws.
Over on the Market-Frankford end... not too bad. They've been keeping 40h Street, 15th Street, and everything east thereof clean. 34th Street, I'm never on the platform... but 30th Street... I could scream... I recently saw a cartoon about the video game character Kirby (who none of you probably know of, but never say never...), and the episode had trash being dumped all over the place. My first thought: Since when did they film this show at 30th Street Station? Seriously, 30th Street is that bad. I'm aware of the ongoing construction, but you'd think they'd clear the garbage and cigarette butts from between the rails, and get SOMEONE under the MFL platform to get the junk there... umbrellas, backpacks, and who knows what else lies under there.
Now, lest you think I can only complain about my own home transit system, hold it a second. I will say SEPTA has kept 13th Street station (the MFL level) pretty damn cleam ever since their new HQ opened at 1234 Market Street back in 1995 at the last ever Trolleyfest. they've eliminated the foul stench that once plagued 11th Street station every weekend, and 5th Street and 2nd Street seem to never have problems. 8th Street has become less of a dump recently, at least since the 2000 Republican National Convention (A year previously, they'd had reddish rats roaming about at night, but I've not seen any since), and 15th Street (once sharing City Hall's problem) looks more like a stop traveled by many passengers (ON the platform, that is). On the BSL, They've kept Olney and Erie surprisingly clean, restored bright light to Hunting Park, Wyoming, and the north side of North Philadelphia, and since the South Philly renovations, Lombard-South, Ellsworth-Federal, Tasker-Morris, and Snyder Avenue are more frequently maintained (you'll still find dirty periods, but it now looks like they actually CLEAN the stations instead of just letting the grime accumulate.
My big problem: It seems that SEPTA enjoys keeping their more highly traveled stations grimy and filthy in some cases (Girard, City Hall, 30th Street), and flawlessly clean in others (Olney, 13th Street, 8th Street) Litter isn't the only issue, there's floodwater running, rust damage, clogged sewage drains. It makes no sense. It also seems that SEPTA's forces have forgotten what a Subway-Surface Line is, as the shared stations at 15th Street and 13th Street have seen almost no maintenance work whatsoever (my horrid memories of the roach I set on fire down at the Juniper/13th Street SSL station last year - yes, I set it on fire!). So, my point is, when I say SEPTA needs a bath... I mean, a good brainwashing! They can't keep on letting their high ridership stations and Subway-Surface stations rot in garbage hell just to work on the less needy stations. All stations are created equal, why not treat them as such?
Which 'City Hall' station are you talking about - Broad St. subway or Market Frankford or that horrible little one where the streetcars terminate that's called Juniper St.? Frankly, I think Juniper St. was the worst in the City Hall station complex.
For what it's worth, I do have vague recollections of a video game character called Kirby. From Sega in the early to mid 90s?
-Robert King
Amen! The trolley station at 30th Street is a landfill. The tracks are strewn with garbage, and the tunnel rodents feast happily on the mess. Yuck!
Mark
Juniper Street is part of 13th Street Station. the other two City Hall stops are both 15th Street. The only City Hall Station is on the Broad Street Line, and for such a highly traveled station, it gets little maintenance.
Kirby is from Nintendo. 1992 to the current day. He's small, round, and pink.
How is the progress on the new Franfort Transportation Center ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Supposedly, they'll be running buses between Erie-Torresdale and Frankford Terminal until they've finishhed the new guideway, but when that's going to start... no idea. I'll be in Frankford sometime this week to check it out.
"THEN Walnut-Locust. But the southern Express train terminal gets the first bid for renovating, despite having the LEAST amount of structure and cosmetic flaws."
I think you just answered your own question, the mostly suburban oriented SEPTA management need a make-work project for the city-division to do to one of it's stations, Walnut-Locust fit the bill perfectly. Oddly enough the station's mezzanine looks like it was done fairly recently, maybe early 1990s or so.
You are right, the entire city hall complex needs one hell of a scrub and a few coats of paint, as well as some reworking of the passageways, if that is at all possible. For one the Fare Gate at the southern end of the BSS platforms needs to be open, at least something like 10-6:30 like 30th st's west end faregate (even though that drives me absolutely F!@#ing insane when it's 10 degrees out, the wind is from the east, and I have to walk another friggin block into the wind to catch a subway!). 30th st could definitely be worse, just look at 15th st Trolley station, that is a hole if there ever was one, and the BSS at City Hall isn't much better, but only marginally. 34th ain't bad, it's an Island platform so all the junk that accumulates along the outside walls is highlighted by the flourescent lights in the middle, making it look worse than it is.
I really like to think that SEPTA's trying to serve the city-folks as well as the suburban people, but they make is really hard it keep believing that. At the same time, it's pretty easy to belive they don't give a Sh!t about us, a quick walk through City Hall pretty much confirms that.
Regarding the presence of garbarge along Philadelphia railroad lines. Um, doesn't Philadelphia have a Department of Health or something similar? They could bring about a cleanup of such conditions on the grounds of disease prevention. I'm sure that the Fire Department there could step in and declare the ROWs fire hazards. Plus, what about the Department of Sanitation? It's hard for me to see how such conditions could officially be allowed to continue.
People could stop being such pigs, too.
I actually use Walnut Locust every day, and you are correct, its really not that heavily used. More people are crossing the platform than actually getting on or off. They actually repainted the walls about 3 years ago.
Erie Station is nice now that they redid it, as is Olney and Race-Vine, which is little used also. The busy Spring Garden is in terrible shape, and should be the next station to be redone. Girard should come next, then North Philly, which is really not terribly busy.
Many subway-surface stations stink, but I am pretty impressed with the underground Market Frankford stations.
If I recall correctly, Girard was repainted in 1997 or 1998. The limited lighting didn't reflect well off the cream coloring within, so rather than add new bulbs, they painted the walls white; this also avoided riders confusing Girard and Spring Garden stations.
A lot of the reason Walnut-Locust is little used is because City Hall is so close; most riders from the south need City Hall station itself, and most riders from the north do as well. Really, it's hard to see what keeps Walnut-Locust open, but the same can be said for Race-Vine. However, Race-Vine isn't as close to City Hall as Walnut-Locust is. I think it is that, aside from the hospital, there's little of interest there. Note that they've made the Race street mezzanine exit-only, and don't bother maintaining it.
When it comes to renovations, if we're talking Spring Garden, Girard, North Philadelphia... I'm looking for similar designs to Erie, Olney, Snyder Ave., and the like. Spring Garden would be the first to use tan colored tile on the columns. For what it's worth, Erie and Race-Vine need to be reworked as Lombard-South was. New tile, "bumpy" tile on the edges, and better station signs. Olney, as it was a 1991 reconstruction, is actually pretty new looking. When it comes to the need for renovations, North Philadelphia needs it worst, but Spring Garden needs it first. So, as such, the in-house forces should handle them simultaneously, THEN get Girard done. Then rehab Erie and Race-Vine like they did in South Philly.
With the Subway-Surface lines... you mean 15th Street/West Plaza, right? The stop under the Richardson Dilworth Plaza rotunda on the west side of City Hall? Same entrance used also for Broad Street Line? (as such, you pay to enter system, not board trolleys, so there's free interchange here) That one isn't so bad, aside from cigarette butts everywhere. Pigeons are the big problem, as the station is more or less in what would be an open cut if not for City Hall above it. Or maybe you meant Juniper/13th Street. That's just as bad, but without the pigeon problem, instead having a few rodents here and there.
30th Street could be worse? Yes, but then it'd be hazardous to your health. Remember, there's four trackbeds filled with litter. There's feasting rodents, clogged sewer drains, and if you're on the Subway-Surface platforms, you can see the junk that lies under the Market-Frankford platform. None of the other MFL stations are this bad, although 40th Street, 15th Street, 11th Street and 8th Street once came close. I will also grant that there's junk under the platforms at Race-Vine, so someone needs to clear that away also.
Isn't Walnut-Locust the interchange point (not free) to PATCO for the BSS? It is always anounced as such on the Flyers and Eagles express trains from Patison, and a good number of people exit the trains at that point.
Of course, the remaining "half" of the train empties on to City Hall, which I agree could use some freshening.
Yes, that is where PATCO and the Broad Street subway intersect. Too bad there isn't some sort of joint pass for both transit agencies.
I have an idea to clean up Philly's subways, which to me look like they laid tracks in old sewers. It involves two new peices of equipment. The first is the vacuum car. This is like the Green Machines that they use to vacuum up the trash in Old City, only on rails and much more powerful. Send it down the tunnel every day to suck the trash up. It might take two or three passes, of course.
The next step is the sudser car. You might think of it as an inside-out carwash, that runs down the track spraying hot, soapy, disinfectant foam on the tunnels to wash them out. (If the tunnel supports weren't made of steel I'd say it should spray hot sulfuric acid to clean everything up.) My only unsolved issue is how to keep from shorting out everything electrical in the tunnel, including the train itself.
Any suggestions?
Mark
My other idea is to install an array of acetylene burners on the platforms and under the tracks at every station. Then after shutting down for the night, just fire up the burners to several thousand degrees, and presto! No more trash!
Mark
I like the Vacuum car, why not just add it as an accessory to the trash car?
The tunnels themselves, with all their odd jogs of extensions lost and strange alignment shifts, seem teaming with trash at various locations. But it seems to be collected to these stubs, almost like it was swept there.
City Hall Station just needs some TLC. When you see the cleaning staff on one of the upper concourses smoking, I don't hold out much hope for what they can accomplish.
Now if we could only genetically engineer a pigeon that could eat cigarette butts, half of the job would be done!
Mark
Yes, that [Walnut-Locust] is where PATCO and the Broad Street subway intersect. Too bad there isn't some sort of joint pass for both transit agencies.
There IS a joint fare transfer. Starting on PATCO, you can buy a round-trip SEPTA ticket for less than the price of two single fares.
Starting on SEPTA, I suspect there's a transfer that will allow the return SEPTA trip at a discount.
What year were the following station renovations done?
53rd St/5th Ave (E,V)
49th Street (R, N)
Hoyt Street (2,3)
IRT platform extensions with 'new' tiling
Broadway Line re-tiling (old tiling restored in most Manhattan stations)
Wall Street (4,5)
Thanks, www.forgotten-ny.com
David, I like the new rearrangement of the index pages for IND, IRT and BMT. The added splash of color is a nice touch.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks. The pages did need some spcing up.
-Dave
Did anyone here ride the uptown 4,5,6 lines today(Sunday). Did you notice if uptown 4 and 5 trains were making express or local stops on the local track?
Some trains did local stops and others went Express.
There was station work on the Uptown platforms at 86th st and 125th st stations this past weekend. All Uptown Lex Ave trains are supposed to make local stops from GC to 125th St, unless directed by RTO supervision.
No it is the other way around Express on the Local unless ordered by R.T.O supervision. The G.O just said #4,5 trains where to operate Via 4 TK.
I was just reading through some of Ray Sanchez's subway columns in Newsday looking for a way to pitch my story to him.
In today's Newsday, he has an article about the workers of the Hydraulics Department, who maintain the pumps and fans in the system.
Hydraulics Department
Then there was an article from 2/10 about Lenny the Token Man, and the difficulties of his work.
Lenny the Token Man
And from last week, an article about the heightened security alert and how it affected the W train.
No Worry on the W
Interesting stories.
The Token Man is a low-grade moron who risked life and limb over - tokens.
There are people who would have accepted his swipe, walked in, and happily beaten the crap out of him if he tried to collect on his "service." (and, frankly, he was asking for that). And on top of that he would have gone to jail anyway.
Of course, at Rikers, he gets free housing, food and medical care. Not a bad deal.
I wish him well in the Catskills. There's hope for him yet.
I wonder what kind of story about "Lenny" and his trade, robbing NYCT of it's needed fares, and shifting the burden of a fare hike. I personally like some of Ray Sanchez' writing, but remember he wrote in a 9/16/02 article about the reopening of the South Ferry loop, that "..1 and 9 trains began running to South Ferry again.", when in fact, the first day was a Sunday when there is no #9 service. I don't want to make a mole out of a mountain but if Mr. Sanchez writes about the NYC subway and it's people, he should consult a subway map first before writing an article with an inaccurate statement as that. It shows how liitle he knows about the subway lines and the days and times each line operates.
Back to the story about Lenny, good riddance; may he stay in the Catskills and stay away from NYC. I have more respect for panhandlers, and peddlers in the subways and stations, than the piece of trash that rob the system of much needed revenue. If he really needed to make money, then learn a trade like singing or a comedy act, and go from car to car.
From Monday's Daily News. Florida seems to be the location preferred the most over the hearing rooms.
Of course, odds are even if they all showed up, the 50 cent fare hike would still be approved, but in PR terms this is managing to make a bad situation worse for both the Pataki and Bloomberg, especially when it's combined with this story about $80 million no-bid contracts to Mafia-connected companies.
On the positive side, the News does say that some of the 177 booths scheduled for closure might be kept open. Cynical people would say the MTA highballed the booth closing number at 177 in order to later lower that total and still shut down the booths they really wanted to close in the first place, but we don't have that kind of cynicism on this board...
I would not disagree with that. Asking more then you expect to get is the first rule of negotiations. Nothing to be cynical about.
The two train operators and some subway officials have been arrested in the Korean subway fire.
One fairly obvious question is why did the C/R of train 2 not open the doors, but he himself fled the station.
Two why did officials allow the second train to enter the station in the first place.
I *know* that no NYC C/R would have acted thus, though maybe having seen a fire in the station one might well keep the doors closed and have told the T/O to get the heck out of the station, then stopping safely to keep the signals red against another train coming in.
What are your thoughts on this.
Is a fire like this possible in NYC?
How would you manage it?
Korea is supposed to be computer controled, is it possible for computers to react this quickly?
Elias
First, the pax has to call 911(or whatever it is) to alert the the fire department and police. They FD, PD then have to alert the control center. The control center then alerts the operator of the second train. All that takes time since they are not talking to each other directly.
The T/O of the first train can alert the control center but it may been too late. Also, the second train, since it is moving(most likely faster then a NYCTA hippo) requires time to stop.
I suppose it is possible though less likely. NYC Subway cars nowadays have more flame retardant objects than ever before.
But something real close to the Korean subway fire did happen on the Times Square shuttle in 1964. From my writeup on the Times Square Shuttle (emphasis below is mine):
On April 21st, 1964, a small but intense fire engulfed a manually operated train on track 3 and melted it away. Steel beams holding up the station roof actually buckled and 42nd Street was closed for a time. There was fear that the street would collapse into the station. R-17 Cars 6595, 6597, 6601 and R-22 car 7740 were carted away from the station as scrap. The automated train was sitting on track 4 and was significantly damaged. Ironically, the wayside / relay equipment, a short distance away from the train, was not touched at all.
The fire started in electrical equipment in the dispatcher's office at the western end of the platform between tracks 1 and 3. There was no sign of arson or sabotage. The flames reached the laid-up train on track 3 and ingnited the grease and oil under the train, and the seats inside the train. This in turn touched off the "temporary" wooden platform. The fire grew to six alarms. As the fire raged, the last train from Times Square, the 4:57am, arrived on track one. The motorman, Patsy De Sena, discharged the passengers from the train, then operated the train light back to Times Square. Firefighters were unable to fight the fire from the mezzanine level of the station due to the intense heat, so they were forced to drag their hoses from manhole covers on the west side of the station, and through the connecting passageway between the East Side IRT and the shuttle station. It took a number of days to restore shuttle service to normal. Today, there is no evidence that such a fire ever occurred, as both platforms are now built of cement, and the station walls have gone through two replacement tile schemes over the years, the most recent just a few years ago.
Do you think the motorman was wrong to discharge the passengers at Grand Central and take the train back to Times Square? Shouldn't he have just reversed direction immediately and taken both the train and the pax back to Times Square?
(I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what occurred - just pointing out a similar occurrence).
--Mark
Was the gate that is at the end of track 1 there at the time. I would have continued through Grand Central unto the Lex line (at least up to the switch until the tower allowed passage. In those days, was there a T/O and a conductor, so that the T/O would have to walk to the back of the train in order to reverse. I think passages would have panicked if the doors remained closed at that time. Discharging the passengers and getting the train out of there was probably the best idea at the time.
There were also "fire doors" that trapped the passengers and the trains in the station, the second train might have been stopped by the doors and couldn't leave the station.
You bring up some interesting points Elias. A fire like the one in Korea is not likely to happen in NYC and God frobid something of that magnitude should happen, many NY'ers would try to save as much people as possible. Well since its computer controlled, if there's a glitch then it would cause a delay.
Starting from the 1968 Program for Action through the 1970s fiscal crisis ending with the Diamond Jubilee, enjoy my writeup of the NYCTA in the 1970s. There is also a comprehensive, though incomplete, list of accidents that were deemed to be newsworthy.
Corrections and comments are welcome.
--Mark
Mark, you put together a wonderful piece of history. I do remember that there may be just one correction, the first segment of the Jamaica line between 168th st, and Queens Blvd was shut due to a fire on that portion of the line. It was determined by then NYCTA to scrap that portion of the line because the Archer Ave extension was opening "soon".
The May 20 1970 accident at Roosevelt:
* disabled GG train was R40M not R16
* Slants not involved, train was an R40M.
* There was a fatal in 1936 on the IND involving R-1 and R-4, happened west of 7th Ave in Brooklyn. The trains were not in service.
wayne
Oh yes, July 17 1970 saw an accident betw. Hoyt & Jay in which R-6-3 #986 rear-ended R10 #3062. The R-6-2 was demolished, the R-10 badly damaged. 45 injuries IIRC, the motorman Clarence Berry died later as a result of being trapped in his cab.
Feb. 12, 1973 accident at Church Avenue IND between non-revenue R-6-2 #1236 and R40AC #4420, the slant was demolished.
wayne
1936 is not in the 70s :)
--Mark
This crash was the first fatal crash on IND tracks since the IND started operations in 1932,
The above is what I was referring to, and in reference to the accident on IND metals (and involving IND equipment) west of 7th Avenue Park Slope in '36. The motorman of the oncoming "C" train (yes that is what it was) was killed when a parked train rolled backward into its path.
wayne
Wayne: The incident that you are refering to is the Smith Street Wreck of February 17,1936. It was indeed a ten car C train enroute from Bedford Park Boulevard to Jay Street. After discharging the passengers at Jay Street motorman Eliott Abbott and conductor James Reilly proceeded along track B-3 toward 7 Avenue for layup. Shortly after entering the portal at Fourth Avenue he encountered two red signals which he keyed by. Motorman Abbott saw a train coming toward him at great speed and set the brakes on his train and yelled to his conductor to jump. Abbott lived but Reily died. The runaway train had been layed up south of Seventh Avenue and apparently the brakes had not been properly set because it started to roll backwards toward Manhattan. (Wrong-railing). Three cars; R-1's 212 and 378 and R-4 472 were destroyed.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I think it was car #4501.
Wayne
Aye, and the R16 was #6304; she was nearly cut in two lengthwise. The R40M had just received her permanent number a few months prior to the accident.
wayne
"A transfer between the BMT Brighton line at Atlantic Ave with the BMT West End, Sea Beach and Astoria Lines at Pacific Street and the IRT at Atlantic Ave"
The transfer opened was the 4th Ave line (previously a extra fare zone if you had to walk through the passageway.), not the passageway to the Brighton line. Before then, the free transfer was between the Brighton line and the IRT lines was only available.
You do speak of some memories abouth the Beverly Road incident back in 1976, I placed in an earlier post. I rode the R42 to Beverly and back, and I was a kid then. It was fun when the shuttle ran lite from Beverly road, back to Propspect park, it left from the unused track at CI bound platform at Prospect Park.
Excellent report Mark, well detailed and its nice and long so you could read it if you're bored.
nice and long so you could read it if you're bored
I'm not quite sure how to take that ....
--Mark
Don't sweat it bro ... those of us who lived through that time and WORKED for the TA at the time enjoyed every word. :)
Its not a insult, I enjoyed it every bit and since I have no idea what the subway was like in the 1970's [I wasn't born yet], I could read all about it.
I remember the 70s very well; those were my high school and college years. By 1971, my subway riding had dropped to next to nil. I rode on the system once in 1972 to a Mets game; twice in '73 (once to another Met game); not at all in 1974 and '75, and once in 1976 before things began to pick up in 1977. I started visiting the city more frequently after my sister enrolled at FIT and my folks moved out here, so from 1978 until I left for Colorado in 1980, you would find me on the subway once, perhaps twice a month.
I saw the ads for the Nostalgia Trains, but never rode on them. Drat!
I saw the ads for the Nostalgia Trains, but never rode on them. Drat!
We were living large then. Multiple trips every weekend during some summers. $3 or $3.50 is all it cost. Still have a few of my original tickets.
--Mark
Get this: I didn't even know about the Triplexes until I saw one of those posters.
That was a very good writeup. I actually learned a lot about the subways in that time perion. The sad part is that most of those projects listed were never built.
The R62s were originally supposed to be 64 feet long? Why did they change it to 51 feet? Were the original IRT tunnels that restrictive?
My guess ... tight curves, clearances too close and too high a cost to fix.
--Mark
Whoa, I'm looking forward to reading that, but that's a print now and read it later type of write up.....I'm sure it will be interesting though. I only expreienced the subway of the 70's of a small child, but do have many vivid memories of it.
very well done
Mark,
An excellent job. Thank you for sharing that with us.
The subways were so bad during that era that my grandfather - who didn't have a driver license and took me on every other sort of public transit - only took me on the subway once. I don't even remember where we were, except that we got very lost on the system.
Chip
Very nice work.
Ihaven't had a chance to read everything, but I like what you prepared.
Here's one minor factual correction you need to make:
(Regarding St. Louis ' R44: "On January 31st, 1972, a speed record of 83mph was obtained during tests on the LIRR. Legend has it that half the motors burned out after that record-shattering run."
Change to:
"On January 31, 1972, a train of R44s being tested on the LIRR ROW between Woodside and Jamaica achieved an official world speed record of 88 mph. When the speed trial was repeated with two motors per car cut out to simulate rush hour passenger loads, the R44s still managed to reach 77 mph. One of the consequences of that run was the discovery of "birdcaging" among the motor windings."
The R44's motors did not burn out during those trials. Additionally, other posters have said that the third-rail voltage on the LIRR was 660 volts at the time, not the 750 volts of today - you should double-check that.
With proper adjustments, the R44, as built, was capable of routine operation at speeds approaching 90 mph.
Thank you for the correction.
Could you explain "birdcaging" to the layman; I would probably include that in the revised text as well.
I do not know the specific voltage used by the LIRR in 1972, but weren't the M-1s already on the property by then, using the current 750 volts?
--Mark
Here's an example of birdcaging you can try yourself:
Take a piece of stranded, not solid, copper wire. Any gage will do.
Strip off a half-inch of insulation from one end. Note how the individual strands are nice and straight. If possible, tin the exposed strands almost up to, but not quite, the insulation.
Now push the stripped end against an immobile object such as a wall or table. Notice how the untinned strands bend outwards in the shape of a birdcage.
That's it!
Here's an example of birdcaging you can try yourself:
Take a piece of stranded, not solid, copper wire. Any gage will do.
Strip off a half-inch of insulation from one end. Note how the individual strands are nice and straight. If possible, tin the exposed strands almost up to, but not quite, the insulation.
Now push the stripped end against an immobile object such as a wall or table. Notice how the untinned strands bend outwards in the shape of a birdcage.
That's it!
As to how it applies to motors, birdcaging occurs when excessive motor speed causes the armature windings to pull away from the center due to centrifugal force.
Mark: As always a great document. Thanks
Larry, RedbirdR33
Well, the switch from Southbound express to Southbound local South of Jackon is reconnected. BTW, the express track looks all new. Did they replace the entire express track from 180th to Jackson? Also, is all the switching the same?
I believe they did in fact replace all the track from Jackson-just south of East 180 St.
The middle track from East 180th St to Prospect Av was replaced in the early 90s.
The construction has brought in three new items: 1) New switch installation north of Jackson which will allow a downtown train to enter the middle without backing up. 2) A new switch south of Jackson which will allow an uptown train leaving the S/B Plat at 149th St to crossover to the northbound local track without having to make express stops on M Track to 174th St or the East. 3) A "Y" switch connects the end of M Track to northbound and southbound local tracks, due in part to the placement of signals and the installation of the new switch.
-Stef
What is the point of the switch to allow a train on the SB at 149th to crossover to the Northbound? That train could continue South, take the switch between 149th, 3rd and 149th GCC, and relay North at 149th, GCC. I'm getting very scared. The TA is actually ADDING, ADDING switching instead of tearing it up to save money????? Thank you for ruining my sleep. ^_^
Alright, perhaps it shouldn't come as a surprise, but it would seem that SEPTA doesn't really know it's own system.
Last thursday I stopped at 1234 market and bought (yes bought, 8 friggin bucks!) a city division-wide map showing all the city-division Bus, Subway, Trolley and LRT lines north from the airport, south from 276, east from 69th St or so, and obviously west from the Delaware. I must say I'm thrilled with it, I've already used it twice to wander the system seemingly at random. However I've now started to realize that it's not quite as nice as it would seem.
For one thing the Kawasaki Double-ended LRVs and single-ended trolleys are swapped, the Double-ended car is listed in Green next to the 10,11,13,34, and 36, while the Single-ended trolley is listed in Brown next to the 101 Media and 102 Sharon Hill lines.
Also, in the same section 'Trolley' appears under two entries. It appears in red next to a NABI as, "All bus, trolley, and trackless trolley are red" It also is next to the Green Double-ended LRV with the phrase, "Subway-Surface Trolley lines in Philadelphia are Green." Does this mean that when the 15, and if the 23,53 and 56 come back they will be listed not in Green like all the other trolleys, but in red like the bus lines?
Also, the map shows the Rt. 76 Bus, does that thing even run anymore? I never saw it, I thought it got taken over by the Phlash busses (which the map also shows). It's also pretty clear that the map is at least Pre-2001, since it still shows the 21 and 42 driving in front of Independence Hall on Chestnut, along with the 9 and 38 driving the Chestnut 'transitway.' This probably belongs on bus talk, but whatever happened to the 9 running down Chestnut? It doesn't seem to have an actual road that it is designated to use, if you belive the bus shelter numbers.
Finally, another one that may belong on Bustalk, does anyone know what kind of bus that is on the back cover (the side with the pair of ParaTransit vans, the Rt13 Trolley, and the Rt100 N-5 car)? It's weird, instead of the usual look where the driver's window is lower than the passenger windows, this one is level, what kind of bus is this?
I think when 15 returns to trolley service and is rechristened as the Girard Avenue Light Rail, they should give it its own color, maybe yellow.
I have a very detailed Philadelphia area transit map, circa 1958. Got it off of eBay. Haven't even taken the time to look it over yet. Want to save that thrill for a nice warm day when I can concentrate on it...
One thing I noticed from the back cover of the map: Philly seemed to have lots of "night-owl" bus service in 1958.
I got this idea from a prior thread, when a poster asked how long it takes to put in an interlocking. I pointed out that it is hugely expensive because the whole signal system has to be redone around it, and the process for approving and planning such a large expenditure takes years. But moving or adding interlockings and restructuring service IS possible, with a small increase in cost, when the signal system for a line is being rebuilt anyway. So every such rebuild is an opportunity to rethink and replan the system, at least a little bit.
With that in mind, I thought people might want to know what signal jobs are likely to come up in our working lifetimes, so that you can imagine the changes that could be made to the lines. Essentially, the BMT will have all new singals after Canarsie, and the IRT will have all post 1960 signals after Flushing and Dyre. The IND will have the oldest signals, and will be first in line (after Canarsie and Flushing) for CBTC. Then it will be time to do the rest of the IRT over again, starting with the Lex (if the Second Avenue isn't built by the time they start doing G.O.s to replace the Lex signals, boy will we be sorry).
I believe the order is -- the Culver/6th Avenue line, probably right through Second Avenue; the Crosstown Line, the Queens Boulevard Line in two segments -- right through 50th Street, the 8th Avenue line from 59th Street south, the Fulton Street line along with Liberty Avenue and the Rockaways, and the 6th Avenue line.
I'll bring up the Culver -- my home line -- first. I think the 4th Avenue interlocking should be moved south of 4th Avenue under the parking lot from its present location to the north. First of all, if the interlocking is underground, it won't be blocked by snow like it was this week. Lower maintenance cost.
Second, if the G continues to short run rather than to to Church, it could platform at 4th Avenue then relay on the platform at 7th Avenue. The extra time traveling from 4th Avenue to 7th Avenue would be offset by less time spent at the terminal, since there would be no need to clear the train. The F often has to wait behind the G as the T/O conductor makes sure everyone is off before relaying on the center track. And G riders could transfer to/from the BMT without first changing to/from the F.
OK, for the Queens Blvd line, here's my shooting-from-the-hip wish list, in decreasing priority and possibly also increasing cost.
1. Fix the E train interlocking at Parsons/Archer so it can handle 30 tph like the 7 at Times Square can.
2. Remove any obstacles to running 40 tph on the express tracks between Queens Plaza and Union Turnpike.
3. Loop track from local outbound to local inbound at Continental.
4. Loop track from local outbound to local inbound at Queens Plaza.
(3. Loop track from local outbound to local inbound at Continental.
4. Loop track from local outbound to local inbound at Queens Plaza.)
That sounds like it would require tunneling, which is more costly that what I'm talking about. But you are right -- there is a capacity problem caused by the number of trains that can be turned at 71st Street, hence the truncation of the G.
I lieu of a loop, I wonder if the Winfield Branch has enough tunneling (or almost enough) to permit the creation of a second QB Local terminal? That would allow the QB local from 71st Street to battery run as a 3rd express betweeen Queens Plaza and Roosevelt, if CBTC and ATS allows tight enough timing. The second local terminal is my suggestion to Queens Blvd. But if lots of tunneling would be required anyway, your loop might be a better idea.
Beyond the scope of what I'm talking about, it could also permit an extension to link up with the Myrtle Avenue line, allowing a local to run on QB, Myrtle, and 6th Avenue via the unused Christye Street connection.
I like your G train idea. It's frustrating waiting at 4th Ave after transferring from the BMT, and seeing the G train sitting there on the express tracks, knowing that you need the G train. Then it pulls out while you are waiting for the F, and you know that you will have to get off again at Smith, Carroll, or Bergen to wait for the NEXT G that will take you to Lorimer/Metro for the L.
(Can you sese I've experienced that agony.....)
I've done that. If I have the extra time though, I'll usually ride the F straight through to 14th St. Transfer there. Less annoying.
Essentially, the BMT will have all new singals after Canarsie
Except portions of the line A (Broadway mainline) in Manhattan
which still have the ca 1914 signals. The rest of Broadway
is "modern" (from the 1960s)
The A3/A4 tracks are like 40/60 between 3-position AC cases and DC line cases done under contract S-92.
Lotta times is an HV in advance flipping the AC energy to pole the H.
Or an S picking up a DV for distant.
In short, it's a brain bender!
Plus, I think that moving or adding interlockings will be much easier cheaper and faster once we've done away with wayside signalling and fixed blocks and moved totally to CBTC. Just "let the computers figure it out".
note. on BART the only wayside signals ARE interlockings with traffic stlye arrows to indicate routing. The Cal PUC insisted they be added.
Don't take my word for much, because I'm a budget analyst and economist not an engineer, but I don't think the computer will be controlling interlockings where trains merge and diverge. That will be controlled from the Rail Control Center.
I can only hope that CBTC cuts the cost of signal systems. What I have learned is that they are the most expensive thing in the subway, and as the railroad industry shrinks they are getting more expensive all the time. Almost all the expense and complication is in the interlockings. Perhaps since the electronics industry is growing and has falling prices, we can get out of this.
In any event, based on the cost of the next signal job to close, the cost of replacing the signals every 50 years on an ongoing basis is 10 cents per ride. That's just the capital cost. The cost of replacing the subway cars every 40 years, based on the cost of the R160 order, is 17 cents per ride. Again, that's just the capital cost. Then you have to operate the system, maintain and rehabiliate the stations, provide power, etc.
"The cost of replacing the subway cars every 40 years, based on the cost of the R160 order, is 17 cents per ride. Again, that's just the capital cost."
To put that into perspective, the FTA report that someone posted says the capital cost of the full SAS is $39.70 per hour of projected usage. That's part of what makes me suspect we won't get a full SAS.
(The IND will have the oldest signals, and will be first in line (after Canarsie and Flushing) for CBTC.)
Does this mean that by the time parts of each IND line are done, the 75' cars are pretty much history? Only lines running between Astoria and CI will be able to use them. If the SAS stubway gets done, that leaves only the present day N or equivalent.
(Does this mean that by the time parts of each IND line are done, the 75' cars are pretty much history? Only lines running between Astoria and CI will be able to use them. If the SAS stubway gets done, that leaves only the present day N or equivalent.)
The Canarsie and Culver will have a conventional signal system along with CBTC. Only after those two (and Flushing) would there be no wayside equipment, as I understand it.
But 75 foot cars cannot run on the Canarsie, so I guess that doesn't add much -- unless they install conventional signals on 6th Avenue. The Concourse and the 8th Avenue line north of 59th are fixed block, and will remain so for 50 years plus.
In any event, by the time the IND is done I'd expect the 75 foot cars will be between 40 and 50 years old.
To put in crossovers in the hole, you'd need to remove sections of the columns, which might be a major engineering feat, and quite costly.
What would you do about the B5 layup track if the interlocking was moved south?
Essentially you're talking about a layout like the south end of 57/7?
(To put in crossovers in the hole, you'd need to remove sections of the columns, which might be a major engineering feat, and quite costly.)
If the interlocking could go under the parking lot, rather than under the building, it wouldn't cost so much. My experience is the structural work isn't the big expense, the signal work is. You could even removed part of the deck to rearrange the supports. Of course, if the interlocking would have to go under the building, the alteration probably isn't workth doing.
(What would you do about the B5 layup track if the interlocking was moved south?)
Does anyone ever use that track? What for? I could see it if it was pointed the other way, so you could short run some of the trains from Queens, but I don't see any purpose to it as it is, and I've never seen anything in there.
With this, maybe money can be shifted into the transit system to get us out of the fare hike. Let NYC sue the Federal Government for homocidal neglegence. The F.B.I. and the C.I.A. have admittied to not listening or shrugging off information or "chatter" before 9/11 and NYC can sue the Airline Companies for neglegence as well. Sue the Federal Government for the money to cover NYC's debt, because if the U.S. can spend nearly 300 billion on Defense and 30 billion on Turkey, then we can get 6 billion. 9/11 was not NYC's fault, nor should we be paying the debt with cutting jobs because of the after effects, the Federal Government should.
Chris, maybe you're right about our "friend" Turkey treating Uncle Sam like he's a big ATM machine. I know you're a high school kid but before you say something like "NYC can sue the Airline Companies for neglegence" consider the fact the the pilots of those planes were probably murdered the instant the terrorists entered the cockpits of the 4 planes on 9/11/01.
I am not saying the pilots were wrong, they had no clue it was happening, nor could do anything about it, but the lack of security that these airlines offered period, is one that NYC can sue over.
All the weapons used by the terrorists were items that were allowed to be carried onto a plane. That puts the blame on the Feds.
However, IIRC, the Federal Gov't cannot be legally sued. Can anyone confirm this?
All the weapons used by the terrorists were items that were allowed to be carried onto a plane. That puts the blame on the Feds.
However, IIRC, the Federal Gov't cannot be legally sued. Can anyone confirm this?
I believe the federal government indeed does have immunity from suit in areas such as national security. That immunity probably would relate to airport security guidelines.
You cannot sue Government, it's just a fact.
Also if NYC were to sue the FEDs the Republican Party might not want hold to GOP Convention here in 2004, that would be a loss of revenue.
>>> You cannot sue Government, it's just a fact. <<<
That is not entirely true. As a general rule, governments cannot be sued based on the doctrine of sovereign immunity which comes from the idea that a king who rules by divine right can do no wrong. In spite of sovereign immunity, the federal government and state governments have passed laws permitting suits against the government in certain situations. Any lawsuit against a government must be authorized by statute. Usually there are shorter than normal time limits to file suit, and a claim must be made and rejected before a suit can be filed.
Tom
Such suits are usually for breech of contract. In NYC, this happens when road or subway reconstruction projects reach the point of maximum inconvenience for everyone. All work ceases while all parties slugh it out in court for several years, leaving us out in the cold. At the Federal level, such suits are in the US Court of Claims.
With American Airlines, they are close to filing Chap 11. The are so heavily indebted, it's unlikely we'd get much money out of them. We'd have to sue their insurance companies too. And if we won, Congress would step in because we'd probably drag the whole re-insurence industry into ruin.
The mega-judgments the City pays out to accident victims comes from the fact the tort lawyers (Republican and Democrat both) control the Legislature, which has allowed such suits to be brought, and such judgments to be made.
I think it's offensive to talk about lawsuits in the face of disasters such as 9/11. Especially as a gambit to get the city out of debt.
The ONLY reason 9/11 probably won't happen again (at least for a long, long time) is that passengers now wouldn't assume that it was a hostage situation and would fight back. You could still smuggle a ceramic knife onto a plane. You could still kill someone with any number of things other than boxcutters. You could still gain access to a cockpit (international carriers aren't nearly as vigilant as keeping that door shut as domestic carriers, for starters).
For that matter, if terrorists can find 20 people to volunteer to die, they can find 200, fill a commercial flight and then there's no one to fight back but the crew. The airlines are not at fault. The federal government allowed small knives onto flights prior to 9/11, mainly because a large percentage of American men carry pocketknives.
The fact is that it is not the airline's fault they were hijacked, and trying to treat them as some sort of cash cow is immoral.
The Federal Government neglected this city after 9/11, and refused to give the money needed to cover the debts of the city, thanks impart to the botching of the federal agencies and their arrogance. The goverment is helping other coutries in their campaign to get war, why cant they give money to help this city? If they wont help, then we have to force it out. This city should not be in this debt, or the people havin to suffer a higher tax hike, thanks to the republicans not giving a crap about NYC.
The Federal Government neglected this city after 9/11, and refused to give the money needed to cover the debts of the city, thanks impart to the botching of the federal agencies and their arrogance. The goverment is helping other coutries in their campaign to get war, why cant they give money to help this city? If they wont help, then we have to force it out. This city should not be in this debt, or the people havin to suffer a higher tax hike, thanks to the republicans not giving a crap about NYC.
Most of New York's fiscal problems are entirely or largely self-inflicted. Consider the preposterous amounts being squandered on Medicaid. NYC spends more money on indigent health care than the entire state of California, which has 5X the population, and I can assure you that city streets in the Golden State are not filled with the rotting corpses of poor people who've died due to lack of medical care.
More on-topic, consider the recent discussion here about the city's transportation system for the disabled, a financial rat hole that also manages to provide atrocious service. And then you have the huge pension benefits that NYPD and FDNY retirees* are getting, thanks to their amassing of heavy overtime in the year before retirement. Oh, and let's not forget that NYC is surely the only city in the nation with an (expensive) Department of Homeless Services, for Christ's sakes. I could go on and on.
Some New Yorkers are so deluded that they think the city should get special "sympathy" treatment from the rest of the nation, on account of 9/11. Sorry Charlie, it doesn't work that way; whatever sympathy the city managed to garner is shrinking like snow in July.
* = assuming you can call people who leave work in the prime of their lives "retirees."
"Assuming you can call people who leave work in the prime of their lives 'retirees'"
1)I'm close to 40 and I thought the "prime" of my life was 20 years ago.
2) Emergency-service personnel (except EMS, the "bastard child") have 20-year retirement because the city and the unions agreed on it in good faith. Running into burning buildings, facing off against criminal maggots, hauling away millions of tons of trash (Yes, Sanitation is an "emergency service" in NYC), or dealing with the worst of the worst in our jails for 20 years, takes its toll on people. (EMS has to deal with disease, death and injury for 25 years and does NOT get half pay for life. Plus if you work for a hospital or proprietary service, you work until you're 67) But I have no problem with these dedicated professionals retiring after 20 years if they choose. Most of these "retirees" go right back to work, considering that in most cases "half pay for life" doesn't amount to much. That's why you see so many 30- and 35-year people in these agencies. BTW most EMS people never get to the 25 year-mark, let alone working until 67. EMS is VERY physically demanding--remember, 700-pound patients get sick or hurt, too. I like many of my colleagues, am in EMS because it definitely is a calling, and EMS as a whole is under-recognized and under-appreciated by the powers that be, until THEY need an ambulance.
3) It bears repeating that on 9/11, as horrible as it was, your emergency services still effected the greatest rescue in HISTORY--35,000 people--a feat unmatched by anyone, anywhere. Far from being NYC's darkest hour, I think it was one of its shining moments. Always remember that we in emergency services are prepared to be there when needed, even at the cost of our lives.
4) Incidents like 9/11 create overtime, as do "normal" occurrences like late calls (which begin during your tour but extend into OT), special details like parades and sporting events, protest marches and call volume (too many calls, too few available units). Persons who build up OT in their last year are doing what their contracts allow. That's an issue for the city, if the city wants to cap OT. But the city will cap OT at the expense of available personnel when it needs them.
"Preposterous amounts being squandered on Medicaid"
"NYC spends more money on indigent health care than the entire state of California"
1) Where? How? What's your source for these statements? Medicaid, like health care itself, costs money. Money spent on medical care, whether for rich or poor is NEVER "squandered". If YOU, God Forbid, ever suffer, say, a major trauma beyond your ability to pay for, you will become eligible for "catastrophic Medicaid", your safety net which ensures that financial issues will not interfere with your recovery and care.
2) Maybe the streets in California aren't filled with the corpses of the indigent, but I DO know that their Medicaid program denies a LOT of claims made to it. Where is it written that the poor are somehow less deserving of medical care than more affluent people?
3) Our city ain't going broke on Medicaid. Medicaid DOES deny, deny, deny, (based on my own experience with our billing department) and that's a problem. However, the city's hospitals and ambulances are also supported by taxes, and still show a deficit. This isn't the fault of the indigent, it's the fault of administration. That is, if the city would fight a little harder for its poor, the money would be there. That means lowering health care costs (pharmaceuticals would be a good place to start) and improving care so repeat trips to the ER wouldn't be necessary. Plus, the ER shouldn't be the family doctor, as it is now for so many poor folks...
1)I'm close to 40 and I thought the "prime" of my life was 20 years ago.
Definitely a your-mileage-may-vary situation. At 45 I'm in the best condition of my life thanks to a fairly rigorous weight training and exercise program. And believe me, I used to be the couchiest of couch potatoes. I'd wager that most NYPD and especially FDNY personnel are in much better shape than the average person their age.
2) Emergency-service personnel (except EMS, the "bastard child") have 20-year retirement because the city and the unions agreed on it in good faith.
The city has a habit of agreeing to pie-in-the-sky labor pacts when times are good, only to regret those decisions when things aren't as favorable. New York's certainly not the only city to make this mistake, but as with much else the consequences are worse here.
Running into burning buildings, facing off against criminal maggots, hauling away millions of tons of trash (Yes, Sanitation is an "emergency service" in NYC), or dealing with the worst of the worst in our jails for 20 years, takes its toll on people. (EMS has to deal with disease, death and injury for 25 years and does NOT get half pay for life. Plus if you work for a hospital or proprietary service, you work until you're 67) But I have no problem with these dedicated professionals retiring after 20 years if they choose. Most of these "retirees" go right back to work, considering that in most cases "half pay for life" doesn't amount to much. That's why you see so many 30- and 35-year people in these agencies. BTW most EMS people never get to the 25 year-mark, let alone working until 67. EMS is VERY physically demanding--remember, 700-pound patients get sick or hurt, too.
Once again, it all comes down to the individual. I probably couldn't have managed the physical demands of an emergency-services job at age 35 - heck, I couldn't have hacked it at 25. But I certainly could manage very well today.
By the way, I have no sympathy for those 700-pound patients (and yes, massive obesity is definitely on the rise in New York and elsewhere). People should not let themselves get like that.
3) It bears repeating that on 9/11, as horrible as it was, your emergency services still effected the greatest rescue in HISTORY--35,000 people--a feat unmatched by anyone, anywhere. Far from being NYC's darkest hour, I think it was one of its shining moments. Always remember that we in emergency services are prepared to be there when needed, even at the cost of our lives.
As I've said before, while I don't mean to deny that some acts of heroism did occur, there really weren't many rescues on 9/11, at least given the magnitude of the tragedy. Almost all the people who escaped from the WTC did so on their own accord.
4) Incidents like 9/11 create overtime, as do "normal" occurrences like late calls (which begin during your tour but extend into OT), special details like parades and sporting events, protest marches and call volume (too many calls, too few available units). Persons who build up OT in their last year are doing what their contracts allow. That's an issue for the city, if the city wants to cap OT. But the city will cap OT at the expense of available personnel when it needs them.
Better planning probably could lessen the amount of overtime, though admittedly it can't be eliminated entirely. As for people who run up OT in their last year of service, see above re the city's propensity to agree to just about anything when times are good.
Preposterous amounts being squandered on Medicaid"
"NYC spends more money on indigent health care than the entire state of California
1) Where? How? What's your source for these statements? Medicaid, like health care itself, costs money. Money spent on medical care, whether for rich or poor is NEVER "squandered". If YOU, God Forbid, ever suffer, say, a major trauma beyond your ability to pay for, you will become eligible for "catastrophic Medicaid", your safety net which ensures that financial issues will not interfere with your recovery and care.
New York's runaway Medicaid spending has been mentioned here on several occasions. Look in the archives for some of Larry Littlefield's postings, he's cited actual numbers and sources.
2) Maybe the streets in California aren't filled with the corpses of the indigent, but I DO know that their Medicaid program denies a LOT of claims made to it. Where is it written that the poor are somehow less deserving of medical care than more affluent people?
3) Our city ain't going broke on Medicaid. Medicaid DOES deny, deny, deny, (based on my own experience with our billing department) and that's a problem. However, the city's hospitals and ambulances are also supported by taxes, and still show a deficit. This isn't the fault of the indigent, it's the fault of administration. That is, if the city would fight a little harder for its poor, the money would be there. That means lowering health care costs (pharmaceuticals would be a good place to start) and improving care so repeat trips to the ER wouldn't be necessary. Plus, the ER shouldn't be the family doctor, as it is now for so many poor folks...
At least some of the poor are guilty of abusing the system, though of course many medical professionals and others do the same. Perhaps if people didn't let their bodies deteriorate, they'd be healthier - not to mention far happier.
>>> At 45 I'm in the best condition of my life thanks to a fairly rigorous weight training and exercise program. And believe me, I used to be the couchiest of couch potatoes..... Perhaps if people didn't let their bodies deteriorate, they'd be healthier - not to mention far happier. <<<
There is no one more pious than a reformed whore. You seem to be taking the Calvinist position of so many conservatives that if I can do it, those who can't must have some character defect. In that case, why aren't you a multi-millionaire?
Tom
At 45 I'm in the best condition of my life thanks to a fairly rigorous weight training and exercise program. And believe me, I used to be the couchiest of couch potatoes..... Perhaps if people didn't let their bodies deteriorate, they'd be healthier - not to mention far happier.
There is no one more pious than a reformed whore. You seem to be taking the Calvinist position of so many conservatives that if I can do it, those who can't must have some character defect. In that case, why aren't you a multi-millionaire?
I'm not trying to sound pious or anything. What I was doing was responding to the claim that emergency-services workers should be able to retire young due to the physical demands of the job. There's sort of an assumption that people become physically incapable of that sort of work when they get into their forties, when in fact that's manifestly untrue. And keep in mind that unlike me, who was a marshmallow until six months ago (and still has a long way to go), the average 40-something NYPD/FDNY/EMS worker probably has been in very good condition all along.
"There is no one more pious than a reformed whore."
Indeed.
Do you know the difference between a nun and a whore in a bathtub?
:0)
I believe that under the current regulations, a single person is no longer qualified for Medicaid if his or her income exceeds $650 per MONTH! I would hardly call that overly generous. If one is making $650 per month, they most likely will be homeless, never mind able to pay for private health insurance.
>>> Persons who build up OT in their last year are doing what their contracts allow. <<<
I do not think anyone is knocking the individuals for looking out for themselves, but it is extremely poor personnel management to base retirement pay on the total amount earned in the last year, as opposed to either the base salary for the last year, or the perhaps average base salary for the highest five years of employment. Whoever negotiated the contracts on behalf of the city did a really poor job in this respect.
What 9/11 did was force many experienced police and firefighters who had sufficient time to retire, to actually retire because they could not expect to have such a high annual salary based on so much overtime again, and therefore staying on the job would reduce their pensions over the remainder of their lives. The fire department is particularly hard hit by the lack of experienced people in a job where inexperienced new people learn on the job by having many experienced firefighters working with them. The number of deaths and retirements has dangerously lowered the ratio of experienced to inexperience firefighters in some companies.
Tom
Is it possible to "cap" the open cut areas of the Sea Beach and Brighton ROWs? The sections I am asking about are from Prospect Park to Newkirk Ave (Brighton) and from 8th Ave to 86th St (Sea Beach). Also, I am not taking in account of the cost.
Anything is possible when you don't take cost into account. This would be simple with no cost constraints. I would choose a heated tent of sorts filled with a hallucinogenic gas.
---Brian
LOL
Hey, is you pumped in enough gas, I bet you can get enought folks willing to pay a "premium" fare to ride that section. More than enought to cover the cost~
Yes, it's possible. It was proposed a few years ago to sell the air rights over the Sea Beach to build a Fairway or Costco or something. The community board wouldn't allow it, primarily because of the vehicular traffic such an establishment would generate.
(Yes, it's possible. It was proposed a few years ago to sell the air rights over the Sea Beach to build a Fairway or Costco or something. The community board wouldn't allow it, primarily because of the vehicular traffic such an establishment would generate.)
Yeah the Crunchy Granola types -- and their luddite corunners -- claimed that new stores located directly over subway stations would be "auto-oriented" development. Especially since they would have parking lots -- which could be used for park-n-ride during the day.
the brighton ROW goes through a residential neiborhood-so just picture the NIMBYs now
-but might work if it were a huge parking lot, parking is scarce in the area around those stations
Excellent idea. Have private developers to it, as condo garage spaces (and yes, Brooklyn already does have condo garages -- just garage space, nothing else in the building).
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. The City would get some money for the sale of the air rights, and then collect annual taxes on the condo garages, with the benefit of the open cuts being all-weathered.
Tell you what Mark, try it on your Brighton and enjoy it to your heart's content. Just keep your half-ass ideas away from the Sea Beach. BTW, do you work for the TA? Sure sounds like it.
I've heard of things and seen them with my own eyes, things that have emasculated the Sea Beach, but this idea of capping the N route would completely made the line lose its unique identity. I happen to have always loved the open cut. It makes it a subway but out of doors below street level and I have loved those mini-tunnels since I first rode the train in April, 1947. Cut those ideas out because it is like putting a dagger through my heart. Don't you dudes out there realize what an emotional attachment I have for the Sea Beach? Are you trying to make me miserable? Cut it out.
Hey Sea Beach Fred et al.
I too have this emotional attachment for Sea Beach. I'll be honest. I grew up on it. We didn't have any money for a car...everything was via Sea Beach, to my grandmother's house on Sundays, to school, to work...I never deviate from Sea Beach...
My aunt and uncle met each other on Sea Beach and they have been happily married for almost 20 years.
I myself found love or realized love on Sea Beach on more than one occassion. On the flip side...I ended a few relationships on Sea Beach as well. But I do know that the N was there to comfort me and to offer solace...
Solace from Sea Beach...
When it snows, Sea Beach is a scene from Currier and Ives...you can't get that on Brighton...
The Solace on Sea Beach is unique...I can read on Sea Beach, cozy up, take a nap and not feel threatened...I can even cry, and I have in the past...I can still remember coming home on that R40 N train on 9/11...nothing to do but cry, a grown man...I remember that morning where my R68 N train zipped past WTC/Cortlandt...I found out later that it was the first train to bypass the station...my friend who took the N train before mine actually got off at Cortlandt...I let that one go because I didn't want the R40 on that came...the N train saved my life...I oculdn't been standing there under the falling debris...who knows...
The crowd on Sea Beach is a humble litle crowd...they are not rowdy, they are not savages...they are quieter compared to those of West End - who are quite rowdy...
The N is a humble little train, tossed around, sometimes badly beaten...but it still runs and it tries...and one day, it will shine again...
You may have noticed that I myself was absent from subtalk for a long time...it was merely from my last breakup on the N coupled with an accident I was in while on the N train...
Thus, I took a break from Sea Beach to rest and to heal...I took the F train, which actually comes every 2 or 3 minutes during the morning rush - hence, I posted some F pictures over the summer...but speed and frequency can't compare to the N, which after a while, I came back to, no doubt...
The N & Sea Beach is like me, a little beaten, cut short at times, cut off by other trains, ignored, etc...but it still runs...a little slow sometimes, a delay here and there...but it still makes it...
And it's good, it's beautiful.
Thanks to all of you who actually read through this....
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Well said! I definately love the crowd on the Sea Beach the best, it has the nicest quiet crowd of all the Brooklyn BMT lines.
There's just a certain magic about the Sea Beach, thanks for touching on it. :-)
It is a nice run. I like the N / Sea Beach. It doesn't get the respect it deserves. It is local in Manhattan and doesn't go over the bridge, it has older cars with duct tape all over the roofs and the Sea Beach line stations are in horrible condition. And yes, the crowd is much less rowdy on the Sea Beach comapred to the West End. If I feel like eating at L & B Spumoni Gardens, I take the N there. I could also take the W, but the N is closer, and I like the Sea Beach's railway more than the West End's elevated structure.
Here's to hoping that the N will return to the Manhattan Bridge and run express in Manhattan once we have all four bridge tracks in service again. Hope you're feeling better now, Sea Beach 53.
[The Sea Beach] has older cars with duct tape all over the roofs
Pretty soon, we'll all be complaining about the R-1xx's forcing the removal of the duct tape R-40s and R-42s. So enjoy 'em while you have 'em.
But because of the duct tape, you'll be safe their when a bio-chemical attack occurs :)
--Mark
One more thing - the N runs express in Brooklyn 24/7 now. We can consider that a small bit of good news for the N, given that the N ran local in Brooklyn 24/7 from 1989 to 1994, except while it used the bridge for the three months in 1990.
I guess one thing at a time. Express in Brooklyn is a start but there is still a long way to go. Are you listening Mr. TA?
"I found out later that it was the first train to bypass the station...my friend who took the N train before mine actually got off at Cortlandt...I let that one go because I didn't want the R40 on that came...the N train saved my life...I oculdn't been standing there under the falling debris...who knows..."
What became of your friend ? Did he survive 9/11 or was he a victim ?
Bill "Newkirk"
A few more posts like that and I'll have to take a back seat to you as far as the Sea Beach is concerned. What a fantastic post Sea Beach 53, truly a gem. I mean if I had an emotional attachment to that train back when I was a youngster, you seem to have it in gross right now. Relations and love on the Sea Beach? Wow! Unless a person really rides that train with feeling he can never understand what an emotional attachment you can have with it. I mean along with the Dodgers and Coney Island my life was tied around the Sea Beach as a kid. When I saw the #4 on the Triplex pull into Times Square it was like unrapping a brand new Christmas toy. I just don't think anyone not in love with our train can ever understand that. Brighton people like their line, say it is great and convenient, but their relationship with it is platonic. Ours is love of all kinds, romantic, unrequited, jealous, passionate, you name it. Thanks for a great post.
Don't worry Fred, because this idea is not exactly "high priority" on the TA's list. Plus, I only asked if it was POSSIBLE to do it. Covering the Sea Beach and Brighton lines would be so damn expensive anyway.
Toronto has been doing this to the Yonge Street line for years now. It is odd to be going under buildings now seeing the lampposts still in place that used to light the cut at nighttime.
--Mark
The section of the Brighton line cut through Beverley, Cortelyou, and Newkirk is rather shallow. The tops of the trains actually are above ground level, and there is a noticable "hump" in streets which cross the cut.
-- Ed Sachs
For those of you who would like the R62 and new and improved R44 trainsets for the BVE Train Simulator, it is now available at my website at NYC Subway BVE Authority.
Enjoy!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
nice very nice,i like the back round screenshot of the R143 on the M
did ya take yourself?also are you going to put the R40 and R42 in your
trainsets?
til next time
They are my trainsets, I host for other people, other sites get BACKED UP so badly that nobody can download anything, so I created my website to clear some of that up, right now Im training on how to become a Route Builder and how to create trainsets. And That R143 Pic is not mines, Trevor Logan let me borrow the pic, me and him are cool and he let's me borrow his pics.
hey Acela i know how to make routes in BVE also. I'm currently learning though. If your interested in any help or tidbits. E-mail me. I'll be glad to help
Very nice website, I'll have to grab some of those routes when I'm on my school's T3 line tommorow, 56k is waaay too slow for that stuff.
Sadly you took my idea for a BA instead of TA, I was all set for SEPBA when I finally start making some routes in and around the Philadelphia area.
Actually some of the routes won't take that long, depending on which file you download, LOL, the routes section is not done yet, I still have to upload the B, D & etc. Lines, the 2 & 3 Lines are almost done, all the track work has been put done, just needs to have some scenery and what not.
I had a chance to do some railfan fun riding on BART today while my SUV was serviced next to the El Cerrito Plaza Station. First I took the Richmond line from El Cerrito Plaza to Richmond. I rode in the front car and noticed a BART Supervisor riding shotgun with the T/O. After we left El Cerrito Del Norte, the train moved very slowly and then stopped just after we passed under Interstate 80. At that point the supervisor left the front cab, got on his radio and informed central that he was going on to the tracks. When he hopped off, he closed a gate in a cyclone fence that was locked but adjar. An oncoming train stopped as well, but power was never removed. After fixing the gate, he hopped back on as the T/O keyed open one of the right side passenger doors. I talked with the supervisor when we arrived in Richmond, apparently they've had two fatals on that part of the line since January 1, and one of them came through that gap in the fence.
I then rode the same train to Fremont. After leaving South Hayward we made a whistle stop at the short platform next to the Hayward Shop Facility. We changed T/Os and also discharged a couple of off-duty BART workers. What are the odds of seeing two stops like with the special key opening of the side door of the first car?
Needless to say, I enjoyed the ride.
I was in Atlanta last weekend, and I rode the MARTA subway. Since many parts of its route parallels freight train tracks, is there any plans to bring commuter rail to Atlanta, and build transfer stations to MARTA?
Not that I know of.
There have been plans off and on for years for commuter rail in Atlanta, most using Five Points as a transfer station.
For info on current plans, check out http://www.garail.com/
There have been plans off and on for years for commuter rail in Atlanta, most using Five Points as a transfer station.
For info on current plans, check out http://www.garail.com/
Yes there are. The GDOT has a PDF map of various commuter and intercity rail proposals. Read summaries about the proposals here.
The first two lines to be built go from Five Points to Macon and another from 5P to Athens. There has been recent political activity about regional transit, so commuter rail may actually become a reality with the nest decade after many years of proposals.
Just a note, an aside to the on-going debates. Viewed abstractly, and when "functioning properly", the Brooklyn rail transit system is really an exciting works in motion. The different multi-track multi-level rail corridors, adhering to their respective tangents like rays of light, or stolidly keeping to the pattern and direction of the streets, the all stop and limited stop services, trains riding express over bridges, trains going local into tunnels, day and night, all converging in a mission to leap or burrow under a busy river into The Heart of The City...that it functions so well is astounding.
I think of all those platforms, the hundreds of stations and entrances on hundreds of streets and avenues, stairways on the streets going up and down, els overhead and subways underneath, the thousands of signals of all types, the participant adjacent neighborhoods which fill the busy trains with people day and night, the soldiering of the Transit Workers keeping it humming. Come on guys. It's something to be proud of. And the mechanical dynamics of the whole construct boggle the mind. Talk about your perpetual motion machine...
That, plus the other four boroughs, LIRR, MNRR, NJT, etc.
You're right, Brooklyn has excellent transit service by and large. Imagine what it would've been like had the Second System been built!
The entire system is fantastic, except for a few holes -- the lack of a second line on the East Side, the reliance on the Willie B. and the Manny B, and the lack of capacity in Queens.
The entire system is fantastic, except for a few holes -- the lack of a second line on the East Side, the reliance on the Willie B. and the Manny B, and the lack of capacity in Queens.
I'd consider the lack of a second East Side line to be a very significant problem. Other deficiencies would include the lack of direct subway access to the airports, no service to the far West Side, and the lack of more crosstown service in Manhattan.
Capacity is a much greater problem on the West Side IRT than anywhere in Queens. Actually, capacity on the West Side IRT wouldn't be so great a problem if Nostrand branch passengers were willing to transfer across the platform for East Side service, but that's politically untenable.
(So much for your ideas that Manhattan is where the political power is. The greatest political power is in the groups that appear to have the least, since NYCT wouldn't dare oppose them for fear of bad press.)
Actually, capacity on the West Side IRT wouldn't be so great a problem if Nostrand branch passengers were willing to transfer across the platform for East Side service, but that's politically untenable.
Rebuilding the Rogers Avenue interlocking would solve this without pissing anyone off.
Except for whoever has to pay for it.
On a rational basis, the argument against running only West Side service on the Nostrand branch makes no sense. Doing so would allow an increase in West Side service without a dent in East Side service. Even those inconvenienced would have more reliable service, with fewer merging delays. The inconvenience is minor compared to the improvement that others see, and the IRT is far more crowded in Manhattan than in Brooklyn (I've posted the numbers). The argument might hold some water if Manhattanites would gain what Brooklynites would lose -- but Manhattanites haven't had one-seat access to both the East Side and the West Side since 1918! If I need to get to a stop on the 4/5/6, I have to go to Times Square, walk to the back of the platform, climb up a flight, go down half a flight, take the shuttle to Grand Central, walk the length of a long passageway, go downstairs, and wait for a third train. That's more walking and waiting than riding. I don't expect any of that to change -- while it's possible, in theory, to fully reconnect the shuttle to the mainlines and to run through service along it, doing so would force severe service reductions over the entire line. So why does the Nostrand branch run a service that similarly forces service reductions over the entire line when eliminating it would yield only a tiny inconvenience to some of its passengers?
Because everything in this city is viewed through a political prism. The communities that supposedly have the most influence of all can't even get their basic needs met because of the race card or, perhaps, the borough card. Manhattan inevitably gets less than it deserves because, if it got exactly what it deserved, it would quickly be accused of getting more than it deserves.
Because everything in this city is viewed through a political prism. The communities that supposedly have the most influence of all can't even get their basic needs met because of the race card or, perhaps, the borough card. Manhattan inevitably gets less than it deserves because, if it got exactly what it deserved, it would quickly be accused of getting more than it deserves.
Maybe so, but I maintain that if the residents of the Upper East Side flexed a little political and economic muscle, they'd be able to get the Second Avenue line built. Unfortunately, they've been unwilling to do so, why I can't imagine.
(So why does the Nostrand branch run a service that similarly forces service reductions over the entire line when eliminating it would yield only a tiny inconvenience to some of its passengers?)
And furthermore, it only works less than half the time.
Say you're at Flatbush in the AM. There are more 2's than 5's departing. Do you wait for a 5? No, you take a 2 if it's next, and ride to Franklin where you might get lucky and catch a 4 right away.
So more than half the time, you're changing at Franklin anyway, unless getting a seat is more improtant than speed to the office.
On the other hand, do the 2/3 need more trains on the UWS? I though the 1/9 were more crowded.
Both need more service
So more than half the time, you're changing at Franklin anyway, unless getting a seat is more improtant than speed to the office.
According to Chris R27-R30, many people do wait for a 5 even if a 2 comes first. I don't understand why, and I'm not sure I believe it, but that's what he says. Then again, I suppose I don't have much of an appreciation for the one-seat ride -- even if I don't need to change trains to reach my destination, I rarely have the luxury of sitting.
I once tested it out in reverse in the afternoon rush. I waited on Lex for a 5, which happened to be running directly behind a 4. It was mostly empty (a few passengers in each car) all the way down. As we pulled into Franklin, a packed 2 was pulling out -- carrying, I presume, many passengers who had come off the 4. Yet even though the 5 came second and was empty, the 2 was held in the tunnel as the 5 got the lineup.
On the other hand, do the 2/3 need more trains on the UWS? I though the 1/9 were more crowded.
Both are very crowded -- more crowded than the oft-cited 7 and more crowded than any of the IRT lines in Brooklyn. Both could use more service.
Increased 2/3 service can help the local, too. Some 2's or 3's could be scheduled to run local for all or part of the Manhattan run. Even if they all run express, each time an express platforms across from a local, the local loses some of its passengers. The shorter the headways on the express, the more often this happens, leaving more room for the passengers boarding at the next batch of local stations.
that is similar to the situation of upper WPR many people will let (2) trains pass and wait for the <5> to show up, you should see the number of people at 238 Street. I was there once and a few people got on the (2), then the <5> was pulling out of the yard right after the (2) left. They really should increase the <5> service. Also I think some people may have waited for (3) trains (at E 238 St) as well if they figured out the schedule on WPR (3 was express and 2 was local during this time)
What happened to the Lex line around 10:30am on Monday? There seemed to be no 5 trains at all going uptown. I just missed a 4, then another 4 came, then another 4, and when the 4'th 4 train came I just got on. The first 3 were jam packed, if I couldve even made it on.
I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like a blockage on the line had just been released. When there's a blockage, 5's are sent up the West Side, but 4's have no option but to line up and wait for the blockage to clear. That accounts for all the crowded 4's and the absence of 5's.
FWIW, I was on a 3 at Times Square around 10:15 and I didn't see any 5's. (There may have been a few Redbird trains on the West Side, and I just missed them. Sob.)
if the 3 and 4 could have the Lenox-Jerome connection (at 149th Street), than the 4 would have the same flexibility as the 5
FIVE 5"s in a row between 0817 and 0838 Monday morning, S/B at FBA/ Atlantic. 3 on their normal express track, 2 on the local track reading "5- 7 Ave. Express". Something happened.
Was off checking out a page that I thought folks might enjoy - covers early traction from horsecars to streetcars with an emphasis on cable cars as seen in NYC and surroundings. I figured some other folks might be interested in it here, so here ya are ...
http://www.geocities.com/cable_car_guy/html/ccnynj.html
Kevin,
Thanks for the diversion. This Streetcar guy has to find the time
to read all the goodies that are about.
;-) Sparky
I may be one of them pesky RT types, but my heart's in the right place and without Rasmussen's strange toys and other early experimentation, we'd still be sniffing horse dung downtown. Wait ... OK, just a passing politico. :)
Kept me amused for quite a few hours though taking the various sidetrips and thought yourself and a few others here might get a kick outta it.
Can anyone give me the model number or other designation for the Kinkisharyo low-floor cars used on these lines? Thanks.
I understand that once Bronx-Thru restarts in March, they will begin switch work at 180th. Do you think there will be anymore weekend G/Os with no service downtown? If all work will be done South of 180th, I'm wondering what kind of G/Os to expect.
Whenever you say GO's and E.180 in the same sentence, you can expect the worst. It's such a busy area. To me, it's the busiest in the whole IRT.
Look for lots of GO's with split service between 180 and 149.
when are they going to shut down the entire 2/5 lines and run shuttle buses north of E 180 Street
That will be the worst G.O yet when they do E 180 St. There are 2 options they are looking at and that is 1. Only 1 service will single track into E 180 Street or 2. Close E 180 Street and provide Shuttle busses.
I'd go with single tracking into East 180th St and run buses to Dyre.
-Stef
In today's Newsday, Dennis Duggan has an article about a book being published next month by Dr. Angelo Acquista, who is medical director of the city's Office of Emergency Management.
I have not studied the issue, but I was alarmed and amused with some of the suggestions at the end of Dennis Duggan's article. They seemed very simplistic. Open the windows. Inform the station agent. Stay centered. Do not go on the tracks.
Anyway, here's a link to the article:
Duck and Cover
Is there any mention of Duck Tape....uh, I mean DUCT tape during such emergencies?
(I am told that) Imus said Monday morning that the terrorism alert status was reduced two levels: first from duct tape to masking tape, then to Scotch tape.
ROTFLMAO!!! That is TOO rich!
What happened to the universal advice for such occasions:
Bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your a** goodbye?!
May the duct tape force be with you!
For a less distressing article on the subways, try Randy Kennedy's column today on the building of the subways.
Birth of a Subway
Interesting article... and for once no innuendos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our Subtalk friend has become a City Icon, Friday on my way out of town (headed toward Binghamton) I got behind a A. Duie Pyle truck.
Written in the dirt on the back door was "Heypaul don't fall", yes it was O-N-E word HEYPAUL !
My wife just shook her head at my laughter.
Why is it that eastbound PJ trains slow to a crawl before smithtown?
Not sure, but I seem to remember a station in the diesel territory on the LIRR where there is a somewhat sharp curve just before the station going eastbound, could it be Smithtown?? (I know there's one out in the Hamptons, too...I think it's just before Southampton.)
Possibly a switch on the tracks that needs to be triggered at a certain speed...?
Yesterday while I was at East New York Yard, I saw a pair of R42's with griffty over half of the train. Is was like the type you saw in the 70's and 80's, all full of colors and nicely done (that is for griffty.) The car number it was on was 4908, it was already sent to be cleaned off, so you woun't see it one the road. Dame I wish I did not leave my camera in my car.
Robert
They should have kept the graffiti for historical purposes. Dang!! Oh well, I guess the general public wouldn't approve of it.
#3 West End Jeff
4908-4909: Ah, that's the Oven Car! Maybe whilst they're scrubbing off the murals they can send it over to Mechanical to have the A/C serviced. That unit has been hot now three summers in a row.
I wonder if the murals had scenes from Dante's Inferno or a likeness of Beelzebub :o>]
wayne
One would hope the heat doesn't come on in those cars when it isn't needed.:)
OTOH as cold as it's been here the last few days, I thought about how nice it would be to have 1277 pull into a station, nice and toasty.
And the pungent smell of a lunch puddle as well. Eeeeeewwwwww! Ugh!
BTW on my 11/04/1973 trip on the same car, there was no heat whatsoever. Fans, yes; heat, no.
AND the IRT's going to sprout 1200's soon, but don't look to see a new 1277 unless they up the option order.
wayne
Don't tell me the fans were working perfectly in November when they were sputtering on the day Ralph lost his lunch.
They must have replaced the heater breakers, or perhaps disabled the circuits somehow.
Same thing happened on the 4 line last week. Someone vandalized a car that was laid-up during the cold weather plan.
This is the problem with cold weather plans. Vandals have figured out that the TA stores trains underground all night, without security.
This past sunday I remember a R62A sitting @ 137 Street Yard & @ the edge of the train under the cab window to the door the car was hit with a little bit of vandal of graffiti.
There one R33 9xxx hit with heavy graffiti @ Unionport Yard other day & i came back the next day with my camera the R33 9xxx gone. I bet they went to clean up the graffiti.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT TCO
If you're planning a long day of railfanning, a good hearty breakfast is a smart idea. For convenience's sake, you could start out with this delicious item. Don't forget to scroll down a bit and check out the "nutrition" label. Bon appetit!
Really makes having breakfast at Mcdonalds look good and healthy for you. LOL
I think that's called a Breakfast of Mass Destruction.
Mark
Also, while that breakfast is disgusting, the author's lament that the eggs will never get a chance to be chickens is inaccurate. The eggs we eat are usually unfertilized.
I know it's picky, but I'm a science teacher. I have to point these things out.
Mark
How many people remember This Breakfast Item ?
I remember eating that when I was a kid.
I also remember what Jerry Seinfeld said about Cookie Crisp. He said it should be called "To Hell With Everything." As if that weren't enough, there's now a Cap'n Crunch cereal called, I kid you not, Choco-Donuts. Yes, that's right. John Belushi's Little Chocolate Doughnuts are a reality. It's another case of life imitating satire.
Mark
All this talk of breakfast cereals reminds me of a joke:
Did you hear about the Cereal Killer? He took out Quake and Quisp -- now he's after Tony the Tiger and Capn' Crunch.
Forget the Cereal Killer,
Remember the bicycle rapist?
He gets his strokes playing with spokes??
Agggh. While reading that, the heads-up display on my R142 BVE train provided the following screen:
BREAKFAST.SYS halted... Cereal port not responding.
You forgot QUAKE!
Yeah, I know, but if you may recall, Quake lost out to Quisp when they asked kids to vote on which one was to survive. At least Quisp is still available for purchase through the internet, and at assorted stores around the country. And every few months, the Acme supermarket in Milltown, N.J. carries Quisp for a "limited time only".
Wowsers ... I'll stick to the recognizable animal parts for breakfast. :)
Wasn't Quake and Quisp another of those Jay Ward created characters (like Cap'n Crunch)?
For the uninitiated, Jay Ward is most famous for having created the cartoon characters of Rocky & Bullwinkle, and Boris & Natasha (among others).
Of course they were.
For extra credit - who was Quisp's sidekick (always traveled in the spaceship with him)?
My wife will LOVE this link. She is a registered dietitian. She can tell you just how bad this is!
By the way, IIRC, a Whopper may have 82 grams of fat.
--Mark
Actually, strikes me as yummy but too small a breakfast. When you live upstate, that's an appetizer. A good breakfast around here starts at the Gateway Diner and usually consists of pancakes, omelette, followed up by your choice of griddle greats. You know you're full when you hear the table move. And if Medicaid continues to pay for SPORTS injuries, then they can pay for my eggs. :)
What a shame! About 10 or 11 years ago I attended a wedding in the Albany area, and for breakfast on the next morning we ate HERE instead of the fine establishment you referred to. Oh, well, our loss!
Denny's isn't such a bad choice if you don't know what places are safe to eat in. And I'm maybe 10 miles west of where you were. Diners can be a genuine qwapshoot. But when you live in a place for a while, you get to know who has cooks without sinus conditions. :)
I'll have a #1, scrambled, dry wheat toast with raspberry preserves, and some ketchup for the hash please :-)
Oh, and when you go to Branford next month, don't even THINK about trying the corned beef hash at the Twin Pines... it comes out of a can, and a rusty one at that :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. I think you got to see what I woof down the last time, I'll do the same thing next time, it was kind to me. Place wasn't at all bad for what I went for. Another nice thing about that little town up there is they have some "Chinese Buffets" that are pretty good. Around here, it's guaranteed layup time for a few days in the yard. :)
You people! Since when does this Message Board became Food Message Board. well who cares, I still can't gave up my craving on that yummy grewy deep fried twinkies. MMM MMM MMM
Geez, you ought to post this on BusTalk -- it looks EXACTLY what the bus fans in Los Angeles consume on a daily basis. They're all a minimum of 400 pounds!!
Article in today's NY Daily News (also in NY Post too.) about subway crime the lowest levels since the 1960's.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/62359p-58191c.html
(just copy this link and paste to address bar.)
Kudos to NYPD for jailing fare evaders rather than issuing a TAB summons. But what I do notice is NOT all offenders that are caught turnstile or gate jumping get a warrant check like they supposed to. Warrant checks by phone are not done at Times Square, just the summons write up. I feel that ALL people who are caught fare beating should get the warrant check. Better yet, lock all fare beaters up.
Do you have any idea how much that will cost? A 500 dollar ticket is more suitable. Agree with the warrent check though.
A 500 ticket may be more suitable provided the miscreant pays the ticket. Most don't.
I would rather go with the warrant check. It turns up better results and keeps more would be thieves out of the subway.
(A 500 ticket may be more suitable provided the miscreant pays the ticket. Most don't.
I would rather go with the warrant check. It turns up better results and keeps more would be thieves out of the subway.)
Both are important. If they don't pay the ticket, eventually the warrant check gets them.
"Both are important. If they don't pay the ticket, eventually the warrant check gets them."
In the subways, the officer does not have to use a warrant check. Failure to pay the TAB summons and if it goes into judgement status, well you name goes into a NYPD roster card of sorts that the officer can check in his log book to see if you didn't pay any outstanding fines from prior TAB summonses. This roster card (might have a different name under the NYPD) gets updated frequently. If your name is on that card, might as well get the cuffs on. Anyone on that roster card gets locked up for the next offense, so people should pay up so that they can get their names off the roster card and not risk getting jail time. This is addition to your wages garnished, seizure of your car or house by the Sheriff's office, negative entry into your credit report, offset of any NY state Tax refund, etc.
It really doesn't make sense to avoid paying fines.
Unfortunitly the word about NYC lax collection of fines over the years is all over the streets. People routinely just ignor the fines.
The same could be said about lax inforcement of fare beating. Back in the late 80'd and early 90's turnstyle jumping and walking through exit gates was rampant(so much for S/A providing security HAH). The more people observed people getting away with it the more other people do it.
The same can be said about illegal U-Turns. I can't tell you how many times I see people hooking U-Turns on busy streets such as flatbus ave, utica AVE and voorhees road (which is narrow and always busy)
>>The same could be said about lax inforcement of fare beating. Back >>in the late 80'd and early 90's turnstyle jumping and walking >>through exit gates was rampant(so much for S/A providing security >>HAH). The more people observed people getting away with it the more >>other people do it.
People still beat the fare, that hasn't really changed. All I can do is say Pay Your Fare, but I'll be ignored. What security would you like to have provided? The guy in the booth doesn't mean squat to criminals. Should I go and chase them down for the fare?
-Stef
Very effective a warrant check, but the current practice by the NYPD is discriminatory. Seems like (hate to go into this subject and it is very sad), but only certain people of color get the warrant check. The people that are caught drinking or smoking before or after a game at Yankee Stadium station get a summons, not a warrant check prior to issuing a summons. Warrant checks should be done for ANYONE AND EVERYONE who is stopped by a police officer after observation of an offense, no matter how trivial it may be. Doesn't matter if it's a mother with a baby and a stroller and she used the gate without paying her fare, the P.O. should allow her to call for a family member or friend to pick up the baby if she does have an outstanding warrant. Imagine if everone went through the check, you really have a much safer city, even by today's standards.
I can see making an exception for people with babies as long as it's uniform for all colors and classes.
But I do agree that the preppie college student beating a fare should get exactly the same treatment as the ghetto kid in baggy pants.
I think that's more the case than it used to be, even if not uniform. Here in the East Village people with very middle class appearances complain they can't smoke a joint on the street any more without getting arrested. Well, guess what it was always like above 96th Street!
The problem right now is that the in-car computer systems needed to do warrent checks on everyone and anyone is not currently available. The NYPD has been having problems deploying the technology (the main problem is that up until recently the cheif technology officer was an ex beat cop who had not technolgy background) If warrent checks were done on say women with carrages, it would overwelm the current system.
In essence the police check the most likely people to have a warrent against them. It is just a matter of the system needed automation. It is less of a matter of color of skin and more of a matter of suspicious behavior. If you drive a flashy car with $4000 rims and tint you windows you are far more likely to get pulled over for speeding then the guy in a normal looking Toyota.
The key to slipping under the radar is to be lo-keyed and coopoerate with the police officer. He/She is only human.
"If you drive a flashy car with $4000 rims and tint you windows you are far more likely to get pulled over for speeding then the guy in a normal looking Toyota."
Speed KILLS no matter what car you are driving. Once again, you pointed out an arbitrary scenario. If someone did committ a major offense such as armed robbery, do you think that person will take the chance of driving the flashy car with a $4,000 rim? Or will he or she play it safe and drive a beat up Nissan or Honda and not risk getting stopped for speeding as you claimed?
It is so simple, P.O. does the warrant check, it comes back clean, you get a summons or ticket and you are on your way. Many times, a P.O. will use a pay phone to contact the warrant squard for the check, this is the most effective method. Skip a required court date, and be prepared to pay the price of jail time when the warrant is discovered. Many repeat felony offenders, do skip court dates, many cases are bail jumpers. Get the scum off the street, and fewer crimes will be committed.
Still, fare beaters and card swipers need to spend a night in jail. Summonses should only be issued for everything else.
Yes I agree that they should do a warrent check on as manny people they can. The proble is the warrent squad has only so many people working for them. Currently it is physically imposible to check everyone. The solution is to allow the officer to check themselves on the spot either with an in-car computer of PDA. This is in the process of happaning.
As for speeders. No every person commiting a minor speeding offence can be pulled over. You would have to line the highway with police cars to do that. Police tend to pull over only those cars that appear to be driving recklessly such as weaving in an out of lanes. Flash cars tend to gain more attention then less flash cars.
Take a look at the cobustion chamber board on Autoweek.com. There is a whole thread on what cars and colors fall under the radar. It is more expensive to insure a red accord coupe then it is to insure a green accord 4 door with the same engine and package. Why? The insurance companies have data the red coup buyres on average tend to drive more recklessly
(The insurance companies have data the red coup buyres on average tend to drive more recklessly)
If the NYPD had a positive correlation between arrest record and skin color, would you suggest that skin color should be used as a criterion for warrant checks?
This is a tricky topic, as is shown by a lengthy legal history. One person's idea of "suspicious behavior" is another person's impression of obvious prejudice. Black dentists in New Jersey making well over $100K per year and driving conservative (not sporty) luxury cars have a surprisingly high rate of being stopped by the police.
You are absolutly correct in stating that it is a tricky topic. A topic where the numbers don't neccissarily tell the true story.
In the case of red cars and insurance compaies, insurance companies base thier insurance rates on actuary table which messure risk based on past data. The compstat program has shown that appling the same methodology to police work has a positive effect on reducing crime.
If you look further at moving vioations statisitcs, You will see that luxury cars in general are pulled over more often then non-luxury cars no matter the race of the driver. If one looks hard enough one could find a pattern to support one's theory or prove one's point. I worked as an investigative auditor and a paralegal. My job was to find patterns in statistics to prove an overall objective.
Education and training is the key. Profiling is a very effective tool in helping to find the needle in the haystack. It is a cornertone of all police work. Proper supervision and common sense is needed in addition to raw statistics. Unfortunitly that did not seem the case in NJ.
Growing up in NYC and attending a school that was racially diverse, rooming with an african american in college I am able to look past race as a factor in judging a person. Just as Dr. King stated in his "I have a dream speach" people should be judged on character.
It is unfortunite that the most public face of the african american community is the Hip Hop industy. It is not only what is portrayed in video's that contributes to stereotypes, it is the real life violence that surrounds major players in the industry. There were two separate incidents where shots were fired at members of the hip hop industry this past weekend at the grammy awards
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/62481p-58304c.html
In addition an MTV "Battel of the MC's" contest similar to American Idol brook out into a near riot outside MTV's studio's yeaterday. Thousands of people from all races and ethnicities participated in the American Idol adition with little incident. Bring a binch of Hip Hoppers together and right away you have problems. Chris Rock clasic joke is about hip hop award shows and the near riots in the seats.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/69392.htm
Young people tend to imitate thier idols in music and entertainment. As long as you have young people mimicing hup hop artists behavior of disrespect and put downs, one is going to draw attention to oneself. This include white teanagers who dress and act in the same manner.
I was recently followed around and stopped by security at the sears store at kings plaza. I stoped in after going to the gym across the street in baggy jogging pants, hoodie and bandana. I was walking around the hardware department (somewhat aimlessly because it was hard to see because i did not have my glasses or contacts on) I was acting somewhat suspicious picking up and putting things down.
The point is with limited resources, suspicious behavor will lead to getting checked for warrents, stoped and frisked and the like more often then non suspicious behavior.
>>> fare beaters and card swipers need to spend a night in jail <<<
Why? Assuming they are not wanted for any other crime, what is so horrendous about these crimes that the perpetrators must be removed from the streets and held in pre-trial detention?
Tom
I'd support that for repeat offenders.
On the other hand, stealing is stealing. Many retail stores will have you arrested and taken to a police station for booking even if you steal a $10 item, and it's your first offense. The store sign says "All shoplifters will be prosecuted."\
And, indeed, when living in Boston, I saw store security detain a woman for shoplifting an item. Five minutes later, Boston police arrived, sirens wailing, to pick her up and take her away.
>>> I saw store security detain a woman for shoplifting an item. Five minutes later, Boston police arrived, sirens wailing, to pick her up and take her away. <<<
What you saw was a citizen's arrest by the security guard, with the police transporting the person. If fare beating is a misdemeanor, anyone in the station could hold the person and turn him over to a police officer in the same manner, and the police officer would transport the arrestee to jail, with a warning to the citizen that if he/she failed to follow up he/she could be sued for false arrest. Police officers do not like to get involved in this type of situation and will try to dissuade the complainant from going forward.
For minor crimes such as petty theft, there is usually a (low) bail schedule, so a person arrested can post bail at the police station once booked, and not have to spend a night in jail. In the east, many places have a night court where those arrested are taken and may be released by the judge with minimal or no bail avoiding a night in jail.
In this country, pre-trial detention is not supposed to be punishment, but reserved for those who are a flight risk or pose an immediate danger to others.
Tom
I saw store security detain a woman for shoplifting an item. Five minutes later, Boston police arrived, sirens wailing, to pick her up and take her away.
What you saw was a citizen's arrest by the security guard, with the police transporting the person. If fare beating is a misdemeanor, anyone in the station could hold the person and turn him over to a police officer in the same manner, and the police officer would transport the arrestee to jail, with a warning to the citizen that if he/she failed to follow up he/she could be sued for false arrest. Police officers do not like to get involved in this type of situation and will try to dissuade the complainant from going forward.
In most states, maybe all, stores have special authority to stop and detain suspected shoplifters pending arrival of the police.
1) Peter Rosa's reply is accurate. In some cases private security officers have been offered the training and certification required to earn the authority and limited immunity of sworn peace officers, when protecting the property they were hired to protect.
"What you saw was a citizen's arrest by the security guard, with the police transporting the person. If fare beating is a misdemeanor, anyone in the station could hold the person and turn him over to a police officer in the same manner, and the police officer would transport the arrestee to jail, with a warning to the citizen that if he/she failed to follow up he/she could be sued for false arrest. Police officers do not like to get involved in this type of situation and will try to dissuade the complainant from going forward."
This is not true in the retail setting. Stores often have policies prosecuting shoplifters, and make follow-up and testimony part of the security employee's job. The police know this. In the case I cited, the officers asked the store manager "Is that person in custody?" The store manager said, "yes," and the police took her away.
Obviously, making bail for shoplifting is fairly easy. But the process we just described is more involved and less convenient (for the accused person) than simply giving the person a summons and wishing them a nice day.
And I agree with it.
>>> But the process we just described is more involved and less convenient (for the accused person) than simply giving the person a summons and wishing them a nice day. <<<
As I pointed out in a previous post, police officers cannot make an arrest for a misdemeanor committed outside their presence. Since in the shoplifting scenario, it is not the police officer who is making the arrest, but the merchant, the police officer has no authority to issue a summons even if he wished to do so.
But this begs the question. The original post indicated that fare beaters should be thrown in jail overnight, and I questioned the necessity for pre trial incarceration for that offense. The real reason for giving out summons for fare beaters is so police resources are not tied up transporting such minor miscreants to the police station or night court where they would be released on a very small bail. Even though only a summons was issued when the offense occurred, a judge could sentence a convicted fare beater to jail if he thought it were appropriate.
Tom
That is certainly true.
On the other side of the coin, it was only recently that suspected spouse beaters were guaranteed a trip to jail. In 1995 or so (exact dates??) NYPD officers were informed that, in the case of suspected spousal abuse, the alleged perpetrator would be sent to Riker's Island and be held overnight regardless of whether the victim wished to press charges. This was done so that the victim would have at least one night of respite and would be better able to receive services from responsible authorities (police DA medical) without facing the immediate return of the alleged perpetrator from the police station or that the alleged perp would remain in the home.
I think it was also meant to reinforce the message to perpetrators that jail is real and you can be sitting in one soon. I don't know how much of a deterrent that is, though.
>>> it was only recently that suspected spouse beaters were guaranteed a trip to jail <<<
It takes more than suspicion. There must be physical evidence of assault. No marks, no arrest by the police. If a wife says "He hit me" but there is no physical evidence, then the wife has to make the citizen's arrest and the police will take the husband to jail. If she does not want her husband to go to jail, they will not take him.
The real purpose of the mandatory arrest with any evidence policy is to prevent the battering spouse from blaming the other one for his arrest. Since he is arrested regardless of what his spouse says, the arrested spouse gets to associate his arrest with his own actions, not with the idea that his spouse had him arrested. The theory is that this will reduce future violence, and at the least prevent retaliation against the spouse for the arrest.
Tom
What needs to be done is if the fare beater does not produce proper ID, the fare beater should be hauled down to the station house or whatever needs to be done in oeder to acertain the persons true identity.
There was an article yesterday that stated that nearly 50% of summons issued don't get paid, many contain incorrect contact name and or contact info. Chances are the career vagrant knows how to beat the system by not carring or producing ID. IF he knew that he would be haled down to the station, maybe the police would have a better chance of the person producing the id on the spot. I agree this may seem like an excessive waiste of time. But it may actually be bennificial in the long run.
It is time that the police replace thier paper summons books with PDA's ot tablet PC's to cut down on mistakes in handwritten tickets. The PDA's could also contain other information to help verify the identity of the purpetrator such as a listing of all NYC phone numbers and adresses, pictures and or descriptions of known offenders. Scanners to scan driver's licences etc.
What needs to be done is if the fare beater does not produce proper ID, the fare beater should be hauled down to the station house or whatever needs to be done in oeder to acertain the persons true identity.
There was an article yesterday that stated that nearly 50% of summons issued don't get paid, many contain incorrect contact name and or contact info. Chances are the career vagrant knows how to beat the system by not carring or producing ID. IF he knew that he would be haled down to the station, maybe the police would have a better chance of the person producing the id on the spot. I agree this may seem like an excessive waiste of time. But it may actually be bennificial in the long run.
I believe that people stopped for summons-able offenses such as fare-beating in fact are taken into custody if they can't produce identification.
Most likely, people fail to pay summonses not because there's insufficient contact information, but because they figure (correctly, I'm sure) that the police have better things to do than go looking for them.
>>> Chances are the career vagrant knows how to beat the system by not carring or producing ID. <<<
Those who can produce no ID are taken into custody. The real problem is with those carrying false ID, or inaccurate ID, such as a former address rather than the person's current address. These are the ones responsible for the uncollectible summonses.
Tom
Evidence does point out that a great percentage of fare evaders are the ones looking for the opportunity to committ a more serious crime. They now know that Metrocard transactions can be traced, and why bother with a token? I do not endorse locking up people for ALL offenses, why lock people up for selling merchandise, or for drinking beer, unless there is a warrant out on that offender? Just fare beating and card swiping are two offenses I would very much like people see in jail. A misdemendor, yes but it is for Theft of Services, the equalivent of walking out of a restaurant without paying, or diverting cable service to a illegal box.
Theft of cable service carries pretty steep penalties and jail time
This will change as the NYPD upgrades it's technolgy. Tight now it is just too labor intensive to do warrent checks on all people who are caught. The NYPD will soon have PDA's that will allow officer to check warrent's themselves on the spot. This has been delayed due to the NYPD utter poor management. They had an former cop as cheif technology officer who had no technology experience. They hired consultants to develope and deploy the system. Knowing that noone in the NYPD had a clue about technology, they milked the NYPD dry. Kelly has recently hired a technology guy to head up the project
Yes, and lets keep it that way! Meaning, dont cut police and token booth clerks!
Don't get your hopes up, that federal money WON'T be coming. MORE layoffs and further tax hikes can be expected so that Shrub can give away more money we don't have to his chosen few ... AND New York will have to share the reduced money with Keokuk and Grand Fork which obviously are more likely to be hit by terrorists than New York City.
"Bush: No special aid for states"
Albany NY Times Union, no subscription required ...
Yet we are giving 40 billion to win the support of turkey to use there nation to launch attacks. We are also giving quite a nice sum to jabuti in africa to use thier nation as a launch point.
Bush is shorchanging the american people to support the intersts of oil baron freinds.
There are plenty of untapped energy sources in the US
One of the biggest is sewage treatment plants. These plants are optimized to reduce the production of methane(natural gas) Pen state has developed a process to extract out hydrogen and methane from sewage and other food processing waste.
http://www.psu.edu/ur/2003/wastewater.html
One thing NYC has is tons of waste. The largest expense of building out this project is the fermentors for which NYC sewage plants already have built
A secound is animal wastes from hog and chicken farms. Up until recently these operations were allowed to simply create waste pools that would pollute the air with methane. Smithfeild pork has just entered in to an agreement to turn some of it's waste product into bio-diesel.
http://www.wastenews.com/headlines2.html?id=1045865420
What bothers me even more is the pap among the right-wingers when they get together (this administration is mostly retreads from the Reagan, Ford and Poppa administrations) and talk of "America being the heartland" (which excludes BOTH coasts) and the importance of defending that. There have been several overtones out of various speeches that these guys consider New York and California as receiving "God's wrath" and thus throwing much money at either is a waste of money since they're about to get the "Sodom and Gomorrah treatment they deserve" ... such is the prevailing attitude.
I was once a PROUD republican. Then Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and the other zanies hijacked the party. NOW they're in control. :(
But no, I doubt New York or California will get squat. While the Taliban may be gone, it never ceases to amaze me when listening to various right wingers spout their bile that after deposing THOSE guys, we're so hell bent on creating it in our own image. Or so it appears.
When riding Amtrak thru Syracuse at night, look out the south (same side as the platform) windows of the train about a mile west of the station. As you pass the Onondaga County Metropolitan Sewage Treatment Plant. look at the good sized "eternal flame" which burns atop a stack at the facility. This is how they get rid of unwanted methane at the plant. Meanwhile, Natural Gas prices rose by over a third on the spot market today.
It has bothered me for years as I pass the sewage treatment plant by my house. As a child I remember being facinated by the flame with a sign on the fence that said do not call the fire department.
The methane is released as part of the process of treating the sewage. In the past the goal was always to come up with ways to try to reduce the methane production during the process because they did not know what to do with it. They reduce the methane production by changing the acidity of the sewage to a state where the microbs that preduce the methane don't work as well. There is a pilot project in westchester that feeds the methane into fuel cells. the energy and heat produced powered the plant making it almost energy self suffucent. But if the plants were modified to maximize the production of methane and Hydrogen these costly treatment plants would be somewhat profitable for manicipalities
The Penn state resaerch I mentioned in my earlier post modifies the digestion(treatment) process by introducing specially created microbes that at certain acidities priduce hydrogen. Once all the source material for the hydrogen is consumed. The acidity is changed again and microbs that maximize methane production is introduced.
The process also reduces treatment costs by removing the airation step which cost 40-60% of the treatment costs.
It makes me laugh when Bush ran his mouth about the Kyoto accord not being in the best interest for America. In reality, we would be close to be in complience if we just collected methane emmited from landfills(which methane production could also be increased if desired), Redirected methane from sewage plants to natural gas power plants, switched over to flourecent, turned off monitors and lights at offices at night and a small increase in overall fuel economy of auto's, trucks and buses.
Time did a story a few years back that demonstrated that if certain types of factories were co-located in the same industrial park, the waste product from one facility could feed the other facility with raw materials it needed saving companies money and reducing energy consumption and polution.
USE NYCT as an example. NYCT never shuts off lights in areas locked off at night. Tooken booth clerks leave the lights on in part time tooken booths. It runs 8 car trains all night and weekends when 4 cars with more service would save energy and increase riders service
A few years back all gore required all electronics makers to use 1 watt standby circuits vs a mix of 3 watt and 1 watt(they cost the same to make). That saved a 100,000 barrels of oil a year with zero addional cost to consumers.
Economic enviromentalism pays off for companies. If NYC was smart it could create tons of jobs if they would seek to enter this market
1)sewage to methane and hydrogen (or biogas that can be mixed with used vegatable oil to create biodiesil)
2)Cooking oil reprocessing to be used in biodiesel production- The times stated that there is enough disgarded cooking oil and animal fat to create enough bio=diesel to power 2 bus fleets the size of NYCT.
Tooken booths provide ZERO deterent to crime. They are a big waste of money. Money that could be used to increase real security.
>>Tooken booths provide ZERO deterent to crime. They are a big waste of money. Money that could be used to increase real security.
I would disagree with that. If there's a Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Attack in my Subway Station, it will be up to me to take appropriate action and notify the Authorities. If I notice anything out of the ordinary such as suspicious persons, I am to call it in. If I notice people coming to the booth and complaining of similar symptoms of illness, I MUST call it in. The list goes on.
On that subject we have Gas Masks in our booths now. It's good for 15 minutes. I have 15 minutes to get myself out of the booth and evacuate the station.
-STEF
YEH, I saw the "NBC" memo from the TA, what a joke.
>>>I have 15 minutes to get myself out of the booth and evacuate the station. <<<
What about the people you are evacuating, who do not have gas masks?
Peace,
ANDEE
There's a few things wrong with the directive such as, who gets the mask in the booth, if there are two clerks in there? The TA's answer? Whoever grabs it first....
Should we also be getting a protective suit as well? I can still get the contaminants on my skin.
What about the pax? I just don't know. I do know for sure, I'm going to get out the station ASAP.
-Stef
All of the above is even more why the TA would want to close as many booths as possible. The cost of protective gear for people that are not needed at the station
And what about if there's a roaming Station Agent on or about that Station? What should happen then? Is that person still not entitled to have a mask? The TA is STILL going to have to spend money on protective gear.
-Stef
Aren't the masks given to Train Operators and Conductors designed to be carried on a belt or someplace similar? What's to prevent roaming Station Agents (once they're out there) from being issued the same type of mask?
David
You're right, but someone mentioned here that Transit was wasting money on protective gear. I better have a mask if I'm going to be on any station, in or out of the booth.
-Stef
>>>I better have a mask...<<<
You should wear a mask all the time! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I've *SEEN* Stef ... won't help. :)
Wise guy, eh? Nyuk, nyuk. I'm just a wild and crazy guy...
-Stef
You ain't fooling ANYONE, bro ... 204th and Webster - Kinsbridge Rd and Sedgewick, 230th and Tibbets ... moo. Bronx boys won't be fooled, but we're willing to play the game until we see the card palmed, in which case the old Louisville slugger comes out to play. Moo, Oink. :)
Louisville? Whatever happened to ma's broom handle? At Webb and 195, I got my first and last tastes of the broomstick and Spaulding. Took it to the fields behind Walton hitting foul balls at fire engine reds on the el. Much more satisfying than Wiffleball. Found a picture on ebay of those old chain driven dumbwaiter garbage trucks under a teardrop streetlamp. Now I"M feeling old. Thanks a lot:-)
Heh. Broom handles broke. Ya needed something a BIT more substantial in MY neighborhood. :)
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I am the Silencer of the Lambs (Pardon the Pun Andee). I love fresh meat. Did you know Hannibal was my father?
-Stef
And you think you're gonna impress BRONX boys how? Geez.; Get a grip. Even cheapass trannies don't faze us if it feel good. We're from DA BRONX ... Al Qaeda would vomit, then run away in fear. We ain't BROOKLYN. Heh.
I know Stef, I've SEEN the directive, but out of respect to my source I am not allowed to scan or post it. But it is really ambiguious.
NBC=Nuclear/Biological/Chemical, I figure I'm able to say that much.
Peace,
ANDEE
I understand.
-Stef
There's a few things wrong with the directive such as, who gets the mask in the booth, if there are two clerks in there? The TA's answer? Whoever grabs it first....
Same thing for Tower Operators.
Well at least I know I'm not alone! I hope we won't have to deal with an emergency down the road....
Regards,
Stef
I would think if something happens in the subway, I wouldn't have to tell them to leave.
Oh c'mon. You see what you would have to deal with everyday. Get real!
Peace,
ANDEE
I bet you couldn't do that in 15 minutes...
I wouldn't actually round the people up. Yelling is more like it....
Yelling would incite a riot and would not be effective in evacuating in case of chemical or biological attack. In fact it may make the situation worse by spreading the agent outside the station.
In chemical an biological attacks, I t sometimes takes a period of time before anyone begins to become ill or notices a problem.
The only way to detect is with sensors. The is a new devise that is being rushed along that can kill 98% of the most deadly airborn biological agents. It is being adapted from the space program.
"The only way to detect is with sensors. The is a new devise that is being rushed along that can kill 98% of the most deadly airborn biological agents. It is being adapted from the space program. "
And it's not yet effective, and won't be for some time. There are ways to deal with NBC (and detectors that help with the N and C parts), but that's currently not one of them.
Once again the expert speaks!
Actually, the way to do it would be to make announcements by speaker to evacuate a station. If at all possible, I would assist them. But I am obligated to help myself first and foremost, as I only have 15 minutes of protection.
-Stef
Not true.
If Station agents are the public safety staff you profess them to be, they should be obligated to make sure that the station is clear of passengers before leaving oneself.
You can not have it both ways. Station agents are needed to provide safety. But, only if my butt is not put into harms way. That is exactly how most station agents handle fare beating, MVM vandalism, swipe seller and other station issues. They turn the other cheek. I've seen it a thousand time's. S/A don't get involoved.
Therefore like I said before S/A provide very little security to the riding public
Flight attendents are the last to get off a plane if an emergency occurs. Followed only by the pilit and co-piolet
Followed only by the pilit and co-piolet"
Since you are the Voice of reason, perhaps you can explain this. Why do you spell pilot P I L I T and co-pilot P I O L E T ?
Ok wise guy.
I'm not trying to be a wise-guy. Being the "Voice of Reason", I just though that there must be a reason..........
It's called a typo's
It's called a typo's
Funny thing is that i was teching my four year old niece to spell the other day.
Funny thing is that i was teching my four year old niece to spell the other day.
Well, start with the word T E A C H I N G !!!
ROTFLMAO!
You teaching her grammar too?
Anyone can have a typo on the Web in chat rooms, on bulletin boards, etc. Fingers press the wrong button, and it goes unnoticed.
But official signs hung on transit properties should be proofread (or is it "proffread?"); there is no excuse for typos, grammar errors, etc. Two examples come to mind:
1. At the NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn (before it closed), one of the explanatory signs for a subway car talked about its "break system." "Brake" was misspelled TWICE. I told the office about it -- and when I returned months later it was still not corrected. Shame on them -- how many school children read that sign and assumed it was the correct spelling?
2. Recently, I saw an official notice posted by the Boston MBTA on a Green Line platform explaining a temporary service change. It concluded with "The MBTA apologizes to it's passengers for any inconvenience."
This last one is a pet peeve of mine. The apostrophe in "its" belongs between the 't' and the 's' if-and-only-if the word is a contraction of "it is." If you cannot expand the word "it's" to "it is," then the apostrophe does NOT belong ANYWHERE IN THE WORD. And there is NO SUCH WORD as "its'" with an apostrophe after the "s"; when in doubt -- leave it out!
Sometimes Todd I get so anxious to answer a post that I run it off without proofreading it at all. It makes me look like a moron when others see it. It happens to all of us. It's just that Train Dude has a unique way to respond to it and that entertains all of us.
I'm terrible at that too when I'm typing fast. When typing, sometimes I use there instead of their, or fare instead of fair, not because I'm a moron and don't know when to use either of those words, but because I didn't proof-read before posting and wasn't thinking when I was typing. Sometimes the fingers work faster than the brain can process, and you get seemingly dumb mistakes, which are just typos, not moronic writing or misspellings. Unfortunately, I usually notice it right after it comes up as posted, but there is no way to change it unless you add a whole new post. And I would hate to "double-post" just to say, "Oh by the way it should say 'their' instead of 'there'." I think most people can figure out it was a typo. I usually just let it go, unless it's a REALLY bad typo, and people would think I was a total moron for the incorretly spelled word.
I know the feeling. Often I'll be speed-typing much like a train of R-10s on my favorite route without taking the time to proofread what I've written. Then I hit the Post button and - damn! - catch an error after it's (or should I say it is) too late.
I agree with Todd: it's and its are pet peeves of mine, too. "Its" is a possessive and does not include an apostrophe.
Well guys, we all have Train Dude to keep us honest. I'll tell you this. I think we all make mistakes because we are so enthusiastic and want to respond to posts in the quickest time allowed. It has made for some embarrassing moments for me but what the hell----you guys all know what a cool guy I am and accept me for what I am. Right? Right?
This used to be posted at Herald Square. How about turning it into an English sentence? It even ends in a period.
A punctuation mark after the first word would have been nice here:
And I don't have photographic evidence, but many bytes have been spilled over the word "Limeted," appearing on some signs in Queens (in reference to the E specials to 179th).
"The MBTA apologizes to it's passengers for any inconvenience."
This limerick might help, if only MBTA, NYCT, and others would take heed...
The spelling of "its" is just "its,"
But its usage gives people the fits;
They expect to see
An apostrophe,
But it's really "it is" when it's "it's."
The sign at Union Tpke comes to mind Kew Gardens "limeted service to 179 St". A typo is typically missing letters or letters transposed. Mispelling like that I personally can't see as a typo.
You would think that by now they'd have been fixed.
Maybe instead of trying to find college grads for O/C T/O slots they should be looking for college grads to be doing such work.
Perhaps a witty graffiti "artist" will take a can of red or light
green spray paint, as appropriate, and place a squiggly
mark beneath the offending words.
>>>This last one is a pet peeve of mine. The apostrophe in "its" belongs between the 't' and the 's' if-and-only-if the word is a contraction of "it
is." If you cannot expand the word "it's" to "it is," then the apostrophe does NOT belong ANYWHERE IN THE WORD. And there is NO
SUCH WORD as "its'" with an apostrophe after the "s"; when in doubt -- leave it out! <<<
Languages, like species, evolve slowly over time. The words "orange" and "apron" started out with initial 'n's, centuries ago, but they were dropped off because of confusion with what article the words took..was it "a norange" or "an orange"? The latter won out.
If enough people start using the apostophe in the possessive "its", then," it's" it shall be...after all, some other possessives, like "Kevin's," "the subway's" take apostrophes.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Languages, like species, evolve slowly over time. The words "orange" and "apron" started out with initial 'n's, centuries ago, but they were dropped off because of confusion with what article the words took..was it "a norange" or "an orange"? The latter won out.
If enough people start using the apostophe in the possessive "its", then," it's" it shall be...after all, some other possessives, like "Kevin's," "the subway's" take apostrophes.
A more recent example involves the use of "hopefully" as the first word in a sentence, e.g. Hopefully, the Second Avenue Subway will be completed within 100 years.*
Until just a couple decades ago, most language experts considered it to be bad grammar, indeed a few hard-core purists may still think that way. Through constant use, however, it's become fully accepted as part of proper English.
* = this is of course a wholly fictional statement, I'm just using it as an example.
And the Apple campaign. "Think different" sounds much more declarative than the adverbial "think differently."
Captain Kirk said, "to boldly go" which is a lot more macho than "to go boldly."
www.forgotten-ny.com
'Captain Kirk said, "to boldly go" which is a lot more macho than "to go boldly."'
So, where does the word illogical as said by Dr. Spock fit in? Or is it ill-logical, similar to ill-mannered.
"So, where does the word illogical as said by Dr. Spock fit in? Or is it ill-logical, similar to ill-mannered."
It's the negative use of the prefix "in-". The letter "n" can change depending on the following letter.
PS, my pet peeves,as a "hard core purist": presently means soon; criteria is a plural; and hopeful does mean full of hope. I have others, but that will do for now. I shutter at the thought that someday we may need the equivalent of a French Academy to keep the American English language pure and up to standards, which doesn't mean it has to stagnate.
>>> we may need the equivalent of a French Academy to keep the American English language pure and up to standards <<<
Yo, man, a totally rad idea! :-)
Tom
It's the negative use of the prefix "in-". The letter "n" can change depending on the following letter.
Except when you're speaking Latin and don't feel like it.
I think everyone's come across the verb:
illumino, illuminare, illuminavi, illuminatum: vb trans, to illuminate, to give light to, to light up, to reveal, to brighten
Then the Vulgate goes and writes:
erat lux vera quae inluminat omnem hominem venientem in mundum
John 1:9
Language is defined by its (native) speakers. Language change is natural and is nothing to be afraid of. Take an introductory linguistics course and find out why.
(Yes, I ended a sentence with a preposition. If you don't like that, tough -- it's grammatically correct English.)
This is a suggestion up with which I will not put (Winston Churchill reportedly). If you wish to be slovenly in your use of the English language, please yourself.
Perhaps one day "I shutter to think" will replace "I shudder to think" as an acceptable English phrase and you'll both be right.
On the subject of bad grammar in transit signs, here's the text of SubTalk (the in-car paper version brought to you by the MTA) advisory I spotted a few days ago:
Safety Tips for Winter Trips
Subway
Be careful when the weather is stormy, particularly on elevated and outdoor platforms.
Hold the handrail, you can't always see ice.
Stand back from the edge, platforms can get slippery.
Bus
Stay on the sidewalk until the bus stops completely, curbs may be slick.
Hold on getting on and off, slush can freeze on bus steps.
Wait for the bus to pull away, don't walk in front of it when you get off.
That's a mind-numbing five comma splices in a row.
I am not being slovenly in treating language as a product of the human cognitive system.
It's a lot easier to ignore cognitive issues and pretend that language is based on a set of simplistic yet artificial rules found in a grammar book. A lot less interesting, too.
Language changes. You don't speak like Shakespeare did. Shakespeare didn't speak like Chaucer did.
'Captain Kirk said, "to boldly go" which is a lot more macho than "to go boldly."'
But scans exactly the same as the better phrased "boldly to go".
You realize that "proff" is going to become the mainstream in very short order :)
--Mark
We have in a local hospital, some signs that were clearly written by someone with English as a Third Language....
"Access to Basement thru Seventh Floor"
Elias
Watch that first step - it's (see, Todd, see? :) a LU LU!
--Mark
I wonder if Yogi Berra said that...
Reminds me of an old radio I used to have that advertised its (see, Todd, correct grammatical use of its!) "supper sensitivity" :) Of course, supper should have been spelled "super".
I guess you could only feed it breakfast or lunch!
--Mark
Dude, I always get a kick of reading your posts and hate it when you go off line for any length of time. Your sarcasm has a beautiful edge to it and cuts right into the heart of the matter. Good to see you posting again. I have got to meet you face to face some day.
Thanks, Fred. Actually, I have not stopped posting. Things have gotten busy at work and my wife & I are getting into a neew business venture (of sorts) so time's been at a premium. In fact, I had to cancel my trip to Daytona (this Saturday) for "Bike Week".
I'm sorry that we've not yet met but as those who've already met me can tell you, I'm really kinda shy in person. Next time you venture off the left coast, let me know and I may be able to show you the north end of the Brighton Line.
Oh no, my Subtalk pen pal is another Brighton man. Good Lord, I am beginning to think I'm really surrounded. You, Kool-D, Q Brightliner, Brighton Express Bob and the whole other bunch. I need some backup quick. Have a great weekend my friend.
You didn't know Train Dude is a Brighton man? Now you know...
Don't forget the N is a sentimental favorite of mine.
"Since you are the Voice of reason, perhaps you can explain this. Why do you spell pilot P I L I T and co-pilot P I O L E T ?"
I have a better idea that eliminates most spelling errors:
1. Start posting message in MS Word file
2. When done, press the F7 key, it's between the F6 and F8 keys.
3. A dialog box will appear, follow the buttons on the dialog box, to correct spelling error, press "Change" or "Change All"
4. When "The spelling and grammar check is complete" dialog box appears, click OK.
5. Highlight the message, using the mouse.
6. Press CTRL + C at the same time, this copies the text you highlighted to the clipboard.
7. Go to Subtalk, and position the cursor in the "Message" box.
8. Press CTRL + V at the same time, this will paste the message you typed in MS Word earlier.
PRESTO! All your spelling mistakes are gone.
(I have a better idea that eliminates most spelling errors)
That works, but someone who claims to be a voice of reason can also use the following simpler and quicker method.
1. Type message.
2. Reread message. Look for spelling mistakes, which your education allows you to identify without the aid of other tools.
3. Correct mistakes as they are found.
4. Post the message.
Sounds like something I should do. I have been making at least one tyographical error in most of my posts.
Oh my, I didn't make one this time! Don't worry; it won't last.
Oh? Then tell me, what's a tyographical error?
"Oh? Then tell me, what's a tyographical error? "
Well, it wouldn't count if I had actually caught it before posting, now, would it?
:0)
It's a graphical error in the tyo langiage. Geez :)
Also known as a "tpying" error :)
--Mark
His are not typographical errors, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
I can go you one better on this. I run dual monitors on my computer, and so I can type directly in Word on the auxiliary monitor, and then paste it directly to Subtalk on my primary monitor, even without touching my mouse!
Now ain't that slick!
Elias
I'm glad you put instruction #2 in there. Some people might find it very difficult without directions (how to find the F7 key..)
>>> I'm glad you put instruction #2 in there. Some people might find it very difficult without directions <<<
But it was rather machine specific. My F7 key is between the F5 and F9 keys. :-)
Tom
You must have a really ancient keyboard!
>>> You must have a really ancient keyboard! <<<
Not ancient, classic! I use a Northgate OmniKey Ultra keyboard. I like the touch and feel so much, I bought four more of them when the company went out of business. I am still using the original one. Here is a picture of one.
Tom
If those are the Function Keys on the left, what are all the buttons along the top?
>>> what are all the buttons along the top? <<<
That is a second set of function keys. They come programed as Shift+Function Key. They can be programed to be Ctrl+Function Key, or just Function Key, according to the user's preference. The keyboard also comes with a choice of layout for the Caps Lock and Ctrl keys. The model in the picture has "T" configuration for the arrow keys. Mine is slightly older and duplicates the layout of the number pad for the arrow keys. Another nice feature for those used to a typewriter is a key which temporarily reprogram the keys so the "<" and ">" are replaced with "," and "." , allowing one to hit the Shift key for a capital letter and leave it shifted to follow it with a period such as "P.O. Box"(rather than "P>O> Box") There is also a key to adjust how quickly a key being held down will repeat. The best thing about the keyboard is the tactile feel of the keys which is missing in other cheaper keyboards.
Tom
Cool! I'll have to ask some nice relative for one for my B'day!
I have a $10 keyboard with a tactile feel. Unfortunately, I bought it in 1992, and I haven't been able to find anything similar in recent years. It's going to die eventually. Any idea of a keyboard with a gentle click cheaper than the Northgate?
Well, there's always the Macally iKey... for those of us who have an Apple it's the best :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Any idea of a keyboard with a gentle click cheaper than the Northgate? <<<
Sorry, I have not had to go shopping for a keyboard lately. I got my first Northgate keyboard (which I am still using) when I bought a locally built 286 AT clone in 1986 from the guy who sold me my first Z-80 CP/M computer in 1979, and the keyboard was included as a component. Since I have four spares, I expect it will be a lifetime supply.
Northgate is not that gentle a click. The feel mimics an IBM Selectric, but you are sure of when you have completed a stroke without looking at the screen. That is really good for touch typists who want to keep their eyes on the copy. Northgate Computer Systems, which sold direct to consumers by mail, went bankrupt in 1992 when it could not compete with Gateway and Dell. They made a quality computer at a low price. In the bankruptcy, the rights to the keyboard were sold to another company. Reviews at that time regularly complained that these new keyboards did not have the quality of the original Northgate boards. Last year a company in Industry, California began using the Northgate name with a Logo similar to the original company, but I doubt that there is any real connection between this new company and the original one.
Tom
Hell, by the time I get through doing all that I will have to take a potty break and then lose my whole train of thought.
Followed only by the pilit and co-piolet"
Since you are the Voice of reason, perhaps you can explain this. Why do you spell pilot P I L I T and co-pilot P I O L E T ?
You're focusing on voiceofreason's spelling mistake but not addressing his point. And he does make a very good point. If a station has to be evacuated - which can be for something much more mundane than a poison-gas attack - the S/A should be helping people evacuate and should be among the last people out. That's the sort of responsibility and risk that comes with being a transit employee.
You know something, I'll address it. When the evacuation is done, and I'm one of the last people out, I could wind up as a fatality, because I stayed behind and took chances trying to help everyone else. No disrespect to the people, but I'm not about to lose my life, not to mention I only have 15 minutes of protection. Do you comprehend that?
I'm going by the book given to me, and the book says to get out, report the incident, and NOT ATTEMPT TO LEND ASSISTANCE if it delays my escape. However, I should prevent others from entereing the affected area, once I'm outside in safety. I am within my rights.
-Stef
You know something, I'll address it. When the evacuation is done, and I'm one of the last people out, I could wind up as a fatality, because I stayed behind and took chances trying to help everyone else. No disrespect to the people, but I'm not about to lose my life, not to mention I only have 15 minutes of protection. Do you comprehend that?
Sure, staying behind to help people evacuate may put you at greater risk - and that's exactly my point. Transit workers should be expected to take some risks to help ensure rider safety in case of emergency. It's just like the flight attendant analogy that voiceofreason mentioned. If a airplane has to be evacuated, say if it's burning on the runway, the flight attendants are to help passengers off and be the last ones out themselves. That may put them at greater risk, and that's precisely the way it should be. Flight attendants, and NYCT personnel, are the first line of passenger/rider safety and must act accordingly.
I'm going by the book given to me, and the book says to get out, report the incident, and NOT ATTEMPT TO LEND ASSISTANCE if it delays my escape. However, I should prevent others from entereing the affected area, once I'm outside in safety. I am within my rights.
The "book" speaks a lot about what NYCT management really thinks about passenger safety.
None of us know what we would do in an emergency until we are faced with it. Stef was just being honest about it. The term "every man for himself" may have a nasty ring to it but in reality it seems that when faced with such a calamity often that quote rings true. Let's hope none of us ever have to face such a thing.
(Flight attendants, and NYCT personnel, are the first line of passenger/rider safety and must act accordingly. )
The job description for flight attendants specifies their role in helping in evacuations. They are also trained for this role.
S/As evidently don't have this role in their job description and aren't trained for it. Under those circumstances, they have no obligation beyond that of an ordinary citizen, namely get out and call 911.
If they feel they can contribute as individuals, that's different, but not an obligation.
Besides, this is all moot. A briefcase sized container of poison can wipe out a subway car, or maybe even a whole platform full of people. It's not going extend up to the token booth too. And in case of fire, there really is no obligation for unprotected civilians to help. They can easily just become another victim for the fire department to deal with.
The job description for flight attendants specifies their role in helping in evacuations. They are also trained for this role.
S/As evidently don't have this role in their job description and aren't trained for it. Under those circumstances, they have no obligation beyond that of an ordinary citizen, namely get out and call 911.
If they feel they can contribute as individuals, that's different, but not an obligation.
While there probably are other reasons for this policy, one could interpret it as meaning that subway riders are less deserving of protection than airline passengers. I just don't see why S/A's cannot be asked to help with station evacuation in emergencies.
They can. But, ethically, if you ask employees to perform a task which is potentially hazardous, you have to train them first, equip them appropriately, and then periodically check to see if they know how to do it and their equipment is in working order.
(You're focusing on voiceofreason's spelling mistake but not addressing his point.)
Someone who calls themselves "voice of reason" deserves to be held to a hire educational and logical standard than someone who calls themelves, say, "goumba" (not that Tony's spelling, grammar, or logic are bad).
And boy did I ever put a blooper into that posting.
It's OK. You're "hired" anyway...welcome aboard.
:0)
"If there's a Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Attack in my Subway Station, it will be up to me to take appropriate action and notify the Authorities. If I notice anything out of the ordinary such as suspicious persons, I am to call it in. If I notice people coming to the booth and complaining of similar symptoms of illness, I MUST call it in. The list goes on."
In station sensor to detect biological and chemical agents combined with survailance cameras is far more effective then an clerk sitting in a booth two football feilds away from some platform.
The sensors are being deployed at many stations.
Stef, noone like to here that thier job is not needed anymore. But in the case of the station agent from the security prespective, is useless. The money wasted on station agents if spent on technology would be able to detect and notify experts quicker and more accuratly.
You admitted yourself in an earlier post that you are powerless to stop someone from jamming a MVM. How in the world are you able to properly analyse a chemical or biological incedent.
You have to stop making so much sense, my intelligent, reasonable friend!
Seriously, if the S/A title were abolished tomorrow, my life would go on, because I would move elsewhere. I'm not worried about it. Who says I'm going to be a S/A for the rest of my life?
I may be obsolete, but damn it, I'm making good money. You cannot take that away from me.
Not looking to take anything away from anyone,
Just want to see my favorite transit system upgrade itself to the 21th centurey to provide riders with they really want. Fast relieable frequent service.
This city spends to much money on obsolete jobs that could be better redirected to needed area's such as education and economic developent
So by eliminating the S/A we get rid of the timers and WDs too that slow the system down? And the customers that hold the doors and increase dwell time? Malfunctions in equipment? Excellent! How come you don't share your plan with the TA?
Just curious how every thread you take part in no matter what the original subject you manage to somehow get to how the S/A is obsolete.
So by eliminating the S/A we get rid of the timers and WDs too that slow the system down? And the customers that hold the doors and increase dwell time? Malfunctions in equipment? Excellent! How come you don't share your plan with the TA?
I'm not going to get into the S/A issue, but it certainly seems to me that there wouldn't be so many times and WD's if NYCT weren't so litigation-adverse. Life is a matter of taking reasonable risks, but NYCT seems to have gotten way too risk-adverse. As far as door-holders are concerned, I'd like to see a major, well-publicized crackdown using undercover cops.
I'm not going to get into the S/A issue, but it certainly seems to me that there wouldn't be so many times and WD's if NYCT weren't so litigation-adverse.
I only made the S/A statement because someone else had stated that by paying for "obsolete" employees it was holding the TA back from entering teh 21st century and preventing more frequent and efficient service. But S/A was part of the original group of postings.
The fault of being "litigation adverse" is not totally on the TA. How many TV/Radio commercials for lawyers in the NYC area can you spot that specifically say "hurt in a subway accident?" How many advertisements can you find in the subway itself that say the same? So the people are lawsuit crazy and the TA has to protect itself. Composite brakes that take longer to stop the train mean that you have to slow the train down before it even gets to that point. Or you need steel brakes that send people flying when activated. People weren't meant to fly and get hurt. And then they see the ad right above their head and call that lawyer from the payphone in the next station. :)
How many TV/Radio commercials for lawyers in the NYC area can you spot that specifically say "hurt in a subway accident?" How many advertisements can you find in the subway itself that say the same?
I can't understand why NYCT accepts those ghastly ads.
I can't understand why NYCT accepts those ghastly ads.
I believe there's a law or MTA policy (someone please elaborate on this) that says that the MTA may not refuse most ads, and I think the only ones they can refuse are extreme (like graphic images, extremely political, etc).
It is common practice in an outsouced advertising representation deal that the owner of the billboards/website/radio airtime/tv airtime has the right to ban any class of advertisement it deems inapropiate or copetitive in any way. Ever wonder why you don't see ads for NBC tv shows on ESPN(abc owned). The rep company that sells some of ESPN's adverting inventory is not allowed to sell.
A major isp website my company represented disallowed ads from tons of competitiors or competitiors of it's business partners. If the MTA wanted them banned it is in it's right to do so. They loose far more money in lawsuits then they make in ad revenue from selling those lawyer ads
>>> If the MTA wanted them banned it is in it's right to do so. <<<
A government agency does not have the same freedom to censor the content of ads that a private company has. They can not arbitrarily ban the advertising of legal services.
Tom
You know something? I'm getting tired of beating a dead horse, because obviously you're view isn't about to change. Well neither is mine. I've said my peace on this subject and am going to try to refrain from saying anymore, but as Goumba Tony says, it's very interesting how you always bring Clerks up in your arguments. You are such an expert in these affairs, perhaps you should be working for Transit.
I'm getting out of the political nonsense and going back to talking about trains like I've been doing for the last 5 years here. It's better for me.
BTW, just out of curiousity, are you a G Train Rider?
-Stef
Two comments:
1. "Safer" refers to the physical structure of the system. Police don't keep the ceiling from caving in. The title of this thread should refer to security.
2. "Subway policing" is an oxymoron, and has been since Rudy merged the Transit Police into NYPD. The purpose was to put police (whom he controlled) on the streets (which he controlled), and to put the crime (which he did not control) into the subway (which he did not control). Bloomberg, as Rudy's place-holder, should not be expected to violate Rudy's policies.
http://wcbs880.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_056070227.html
It would be nice to have a full SAS (125th to Wall and Water Sts.), but after some thought I contend that the "stubway" (extending the Q up 2nd Ave to 125th St) offers 3/4 of the benefit for 1/4 the price.
Consider:
- The stubway already attracts a lot of UES residents, plus Pelham Bay Line residents who want to go to west midtown. This offloads the Lex.
- UES residents east of Lex want to go all over the city, but in rush hour, probably 75% to midtown and 20% to downtown. A stubway (with a few good connections) can meet most of their needs. Extending it to Wall St will only save a small percent of people a few minutes, especically if the F is rerouted to go downtown (see below).
- Residents on the east side below 60th could use an SAS, but much of the time another subway would be more convenient. For example, I live right by 2nd and 14th, but unless I worked on 3rd Ave in the 40s or 50s, or near Water St., I expect I would only use the SAS for 10% of my trips. There are many places I go in the city where the SAS would be no use at all, even though it would be the closest line.
- The stubway could get built for a few billion. No one has the $16 billion for the whole SAS. Other projects deserve the money more even if it were available.
Here's a few minor projects that would make the stubway really valuable, allowing easy connections to all Manhattan lines:
- Switch IND locals south of W 4th, so that the F trains at Lex and 63rd (across the platform from the SAS) go downtown to Fulton St.
- Add an underground passageway between Lex/63rd and Lex/60th, offloading Lex passengers for Rockefeller Center at 59th and giving stubway passengers easy access to the Lex if they want to go to the GCT area.
- Add an underground passageway between 7th/55th and 7th/53rd, providing the SAS with a much better connection to the 8th Ave and CPW trains than the one at Times Square.
I don't think "Full Subway" vs "Stubway" is an issue any more. Didn't they already choose the "Full Subway?"
They've already chosen the full subway, but there isn't funding for it yet. Also, the first phase of work will be north of 63rd. Even if all work goes according to schedule, the Q extension to 125th will be in operation before the route down to Water St.
I guess my main point is that a stubway is far, far better than nothing at all, which is the biggest risk with a project of this size.
(I guess my main point is that a stubway is far, far better than nothing at all, which is the biggest risk with a project of this size)
I agree. The TA should grab the money for Phase I, if it is offered. I'd be amazed if we even get that. They'll have to make the case that most of the beneficiaries are in Manhattan and the suburbs, not the city, to get the funds. Perhaps if LIRR riders are concerned about o overcrowding at GCT, it will be more likely.
If they get the Stubway done, and the TBM is coming down from the north, they should just keep tunneling down toward 6th Street, taking the stuff out by work train. That shouldn't be that expensive. Then, if in the future funds become available, at least we'll have the hole.
Manhattan? Why Manhattan? Who cares about Manhattan? The outsiders who don't trust the city find Manhattan the most suspicious part of all.
(The outsiders who don't trust the city find Manhattan the most
suspicious part of all.)
Except when your richer neighbors are donating money to political campaigns. Being the richest county in the country by far, in terms of per capita income, counts for something. Even if you are in a city which -- thanks to the 718 area code -- is not that rich overall.
What specific recent examples can you name of Manhattan benefiting at the expense or exclusion of the other boroughs that can be attributed to political influence (rather than, e.g., demand)?
I think the project should be divided into three phases:
Phase I -- 3 1/4 mile upper Second Ave. construction from 125th-Lex to 63rd St., to connect with the 63rd St.-Broadway Express tracks.
Phase II -- 3 1/2 mile construction on Lower Second Ave. and Forsyth/Chrystie St. to either Grand or Delancey. Going to Grand would allow a link-up to the B/D trains over the Manny B, while at the same time if the money runs out after that, the line could still be hooked into the Nassau Loop to be continued downtown and on to Brooklyn.
Phase III -- Grand St. to Hanover Square. The final segement would make subway access to Chinatown and to the offices and apartment buildings along Water, Pearl and St. James Place easier, but given the narrowing of Manhattan south of Grand Street, if any segment was to be dropped because of lack of funds, this would be the one I would go for (however, if they built it before the Second Ave. center segment from Grand/Delancey to 63rd, it could still be made useful by tying it into the now-unused former KK connection between B'way-Lafayette and Essex St., which would allow a Sixth Ave. local like the V train to serve the east side of Lower Manhattan).
I've been a "stubway" advocate for years. Most 2nd Ave riders above 60th Street who need downtown Manhattan would avoid the 2nd Ave line anyway, given it's 2 track/no express configuration. What the "stubway" does is provide an alternate route to midtown, especially Times Square and Herald Square. This would immediatley reduce ridership on the Lex as people who need these 2 locations can avoid the horrors of the 4/5/6 for the wonders of the new, uncrowded 2nd Ave stub.
I've been a "stubway" advocate for years. Most 2nd Ave riders above 60th Street who need downtown Manhattan would avoid the 2nd Ave line anyway, given it's 2 track/no express configuration. What the "stubway" does is provide an alternate route to midtown, especially Times Square and Herald Square. This would immediatley reduce ridership on the Lex as people who need these 2 locations can avoid the horrors of the 4/5/6 for the wonders of the new, uncrowded 2nd Ave stub.
Sorry, but you are off by a bit on some of your points. Not to say you are dumb or anything, just that you don't have all of the info.
I've been holding off on speaking for a while 'cause I didn't want to conflict my job with a hobby. Hopefully no one will be able to pinpoint me now. Anyway, I'm on the 2nd Ave design group. Just building the Stubway would not cost 1/4 of the "total" costs of building the whole subway. Yes, there are tunnel portions built already in the upper portions, but there are considerable costs to include those into a modern alignment. Nearly 1/4 of the total cost of finishing the 2nd Ave subway is just conceptual design and prelim/final engineering of the entire subway. If you just do the Stubway, well, we already did the conceptual and prelim engineering (not final, but that is just refinements), so you already sunk about 3 billion.
As for the routings and/or re-routings, I can not speak either way because it is obvious that most of you have a much better grasp of the entire system then I do. Also, for how money is best spent, you also probably have a better plan than I do.
Some things that are not usually mentioned in 2nd Ave threads is that there are plans to extend the line past 125th street into the Bronx, and (less certain) plans to run the line into Brooklyn.
Oh, the current plans call for the line to end in Hannover Square (not Wall or Whitehall).
Feel free to ask questions and such, but I may have to be vague (I may have already screwed myself if some of my co-workers visit here).
I appreciate your offering us information.
However, always use common sense and good judgment when posting. You don't owe us anything.
Thanks,
Oddly enough, I normally work on DoD projects, and I know exactly how much I can tell other people. This one is weird, due to the extreme political nature of the project.
I just wanted to put out some good info for the group. Everyone now owes me 1 donut! :-)
(Yes, there are tunnel portions built already in the upper portions, but there are considerable costs to include those into a modern alignment.)
Sure, but the stubway is only 40% of the total length, and it only has one out of 6 of the complex connections with other stations, and much of the expensive non-bedrock portion is already complete. Obviouly the 25% as a guess. So maybe it's 30%.
(If you just do the Stubway, well, we already did the conceptual and prelim engineering (not final, but that is just refinements), so you already sunk about 3 billion.)
Are you suggesting that the better part of $3 billion (maybe 2/3) is already sunk cost? If so, the MTA has done an amazing job of concealing that from the press and the public.
I agree of course that if the detailed construction drawings for the southern portion of the line are done, that will be quite a waste if it's never built.
(Some things that are not usually mentioned in 2nd Ave threads is that there are plans to extend the line past 125th street into the Bronx, and (less certain) plans to run the line into Brooklyn.)
Not mentioned by the MTA on their web site. I think these are blue sky ideas rather than "plans".
(Oh, the current plans call for the line to end in Hannover Square (not Wall or Whitehall).)
Hannover Square is less than a station length south of Wall St. Also, everyone knows where Wall St is, not everyone knows Hannover Square.
So the southern terminal of the SAS could be called Wall Street, or Hanover Square, or something else...
"Old Slip" would be quainter, and most certainly, more memorable.
I wonder if they plan on a new W Side IRT station there, perhaps as a replacement for the current the Wall St. station -- which, as I recall, is a nightmare; it makes the old version of 72nd/B'way look like West 4th: narrow platforms and very narrow staircases, what few of them there are. It's almost as bad as the Christopher PATH station.
LOL! You're right.
They should put in better stations. Your observations are accurate.
(I wonder if they plan on a new W Side IRT station there, perhaps as a replacement for the current the Wall St. station )
William St is very narrow. They probably made it as wide as they could in the first place.
So, they build a new double-deck station at Hanover Sq/Old Slip, then burrow under the existing Wall St. station, double decking it, a la Broad St.
Wall St. is probably the most dangerous station in the city. Like the Christopher PATH, a panic could cause people being crushed to death.
Let's be clear about something: there is perhaps one or two people on this board, at most, who believes the Second Avenue Subway shouldn't be built.
There are many more people who believe that it won't be built, because money has already been seized by our political leadership in Albany for more politically powerful interests, and these same leaders put the state -- and the MTA -- deep in debt during the biggest boom in state history. They've scammed us. And will probably soon announce that due to "circumstances beyond their control" the project is deferred -- but East Side Access is not.
A further point -- especially if East Side Access takes place, the upper portion of the SAS is essential, not to improve conditions on the Lex, but to keep them from getting worse. To build one, but not the other, would be an outrage (that may be lost amid the other outrages). So the Stubway is better than nothing. I'll be, well not happy, but slightly undisgusted if we get that.
There are many more people who believe that it won't be built, because money has already been seized by our political leadership in Albany for more politically powerful interests, and these same leaders put the state -- and the MTA -- deep in debt during the biggest boom in state history. They've scammed us. And will probably soon announce that due to "circumstances beyond their control" the project is deferred -- but East Side Access is not.
I'm not even certain that East Side Access will get built. Sure, there's been some actual, physical work already, but a similar set of circumstances wasn't enough to save the Second Avenue Subway in the 1970's. Until the first LIRR trains arrive at Grand Central, remember the adage about not counting your chickens until they are hatched.
"I'm not even certain that East Side Access will get built. Sure, there's been some actual, physical work already, but a similar set of circumstances wasn't enough to save the Second Avenue Subway in the 1970's. Until the first LIRR trains arrive at Grand Central, remember the adage about not counting your chickens until they are hatched. "
But Peter, you have to admit you're not even sure you're riding the trains at all. And when you pass a rehabbed station can you be sure that was built at all? Maybe it's just a papier mache front?
When your reality is different than everyone else's (and yours is), your comments automatically need contexts which aren't available, except perhaps in a parallel universe...
:0), by the way
is your nose REALY that BIG?
But of course. What if a particularly good bowl of chili goes by and I didn't know because my nostrils weren't the right size?
:0)
Oh, but you'd wish they were smaller when the after effects of chili begin to show. :.)
LOL...I love this place....
I just hope you don't have Spring allergies!
I just don't understand how you can maintain such optimism in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. Let's try a story that might help illustrate the situation. Suppose you're a high school dean in charge of discipline. There's a real punk kid in the school, let's call him Spike, who's been a very frequent visitor to your office. He's constantly getting into trouble - fighting in the lunchroom, cheating, vandalism, you name it. The local cops know Spike pretty well too, as he's gotten caught for shoplifting, joyriding, maybe worse.
One day Spike comes into your office and says, "Mr. Bayside, I want you to know that I'm changing my ways, starting now. I'm not going to keep hanging around with the same crowd, I'll do all my assignments, and I'm going to be keeping my nose clean."
Would you really believe Spike right away? Or would his reputation be so bad that you'd want to wait a while to see if he really manages to clean up his act? I suspect you'd follow the latter path.
NYCT is to capital improvements like Spike is to behavoir - it's got a very, very bad reputation based on a long history of failure, and unless it shows massive improvement it's hopelessly naive to believe things will change.
"NYCT is to capital improvements like Spike is to behavoir - it's got a very, very bad reputation based on a long history of failure, and unless it shows massive improvement it's hopelessly naive to believe things will change."
And that change started in 1982 with the first Capital Plan. That was when MTA turned a new leaf, and started proving itself.
You see, Peter, it isn't just a matter of finishing new subway lines. Most of the money spent since 1982 was for rehabilitation and upgrade of existing subway lines, and that program has, by and large, been a spectacular success. The latest projects include rebuilding major subway terminals. Yes, each project is relatively small (hundreds of millions) - but all together, they still add up to $3 billion per year. And then you have the new commuter rains and subway trains MTA bought. All kinds of teething problems, to be sure, but how many people (other than Subtalk nostalgia fans) really want to go back to the MP54s, the grungy trains pulled by yard switchers, and the R-9s?
Of the new starts, the Archer Av line was completed to the extent that it could be with money in the Capital Plan, and its construction followed the schedule of availability of funds and manpower. I'm not going to concern myself with what happened prior to 1982, other than to insist we don't return there anymore. The line was completed in 1988, and has seen good service since then.
The 63rd Street line was, similarly, restarted after the Capital Plans began. Now, there I think one could be critical of the time required to get the line opened to 21 St, but no one can argue with the quality of the finished result along the line's ROW. Central Park was restored in painstaking fashion, and the Roosevelt Avenue stop is gorgeous.
(Actually, even some specific aspects of the pre-Capital Plan era weren't bad either; the East River tunnel segments were dropped into place right on time and right on budget.)
I don't like the fact that it then took five years to decide what to do next. That's a minus. But, when they did finally decide, MTA set up a schedule, kept to the promised schedule and to the budget, and opened the line. A lot of nonsense has been put out about why it took so long etc. etc., but you can't build in and around a main subway trunk, while maintaining full service through it at the same time, unless you stretch out the schedule. And while they were at it, they also lengthened the LIRR tunnel underneath it. They made a promise (if you think the time promised was excessive, that's your privilege). And they kept that promise. Before 1982, they never kept promises at all. The difference is like night and day.
So now we come to ESA. ESA is on-time and on-budget so far. Construction is underway.
Jamaica Control Center and Howard Beach station upgrades: on schedule.(This is not the PA's portion of the work, but the PA did contribute $$$).
Manny B and Stillwell Av (related projects, City DOT on the bridge and MTA at the terminal - requires cooperation by both agencies). On time for 2004 opening.
World trade Center IND and IRT re-opening: Special case, special circumstances, but welcome nonetheless. You seem to forget that MTA COULD HAVE screwed that project up. It didn't.
Rebuild and enhancement of transit facilities in WTC/Lower Manhattan: Set to begin 2004, funds released by FEMA. Special circumstances, yes, but so far so good. Let's not take it for granted. People in MTA worked hard to make it happen.
I don't think everything's perfect in NY. I'm waiting with baited breath to see what really happens next.
Your posts seem to indicate you appreciate nothing about the transportation services you use. That's unfortunate.
that was a well thought out,and well presented case. The subways have made a tremendous come back from the 70'and 80's. The MTA did screw up with the 63rd street tunnel[the subway is another case],the case being the tunnel ceiling being too low for trains to clear at 1st Ave,and the shoddy craftmanship[shotcret being substandard]. just plain terrible planning....but they did manage to complet the connection to the QB subway....so you have give credit where it is due....
"The MTA did screw up with the 63rd street tunnel[the subway is another case],the case being the tunnel ceiling being too low for trains to clear at 1st Ave,and the shoddy craftmanship[shotcret being substandard]. just plain terrible planning"
Yes, true. Fortunately that was eventually resolved. I only hope they've learned a lesson there...
The 63rd Street line was, similarly, restarted after the Capital Plans began. Now, there I think one could be critical of the time required to get the line opened to 21 St, but no one can argue with the quality of the finished result along the line's ROW. Central Park was restored in painstaking fashion, and the Roosevelt Avenue stop is gorgeous.
You do mean Roosevelt Island, I hope. "Gorgeous" isn't the word that comes to my mind when I think of Roosevelt Ave.
The MTA certainly has done a better job over the last 20 years than they did in the agency's first 15 years of existance. What they and the Port Authority do in redesigning the transportation infrastructure around the WTC area (along with the South Ferry rehab proposals) will likely be the next big "visible" projects the MTA will be involved in, though approval of New York's bid for the 2012 Olympics would likely put the Flushing line extension to the Javits Center on fast track.
Hopefully the first can be brought in under budget and ahead of schedule, the same way the post-WTC projects were. How effectively the MTA and the city handles the rehab work may go towards determining how much federal funds are granted in the future for the Second Ave. project.
I would not use the 63rd Street tunnel as an example of success. Sure, it looks nice, but the time frame was far beyond anything remotely reasonable that I'd have to count it as a failure. Doing things right necessarily means doing them without excessive delays. Station renovations? How about 14th/8th? Or Union Square? Both of them took ages. Or let's think about elevator/escalator work. Look at the recent thread about the Borough Park escalator disaster. Or the elevators at Penn IRT, "under construction" for years.
In the real world, there are such things as deadlines. NYCT hasn't grasped that point.
"I would not use the 63rd Street tunnel as an example of success. Sure, it looks nice, but the time frame was far beyond anything remotely reasonable that I'd have to count it as a failure."
But that's just your problem. You don't have a definition of success. To you, calling something a failure is like taking a breath. You don't have the time or even the ability to consider anything else.
"Doing things right necessarily means doing them without excessive delays."
But delays do not automatically mean failure. They mean improvement is needed.
dude I hate to be the one... but I have to agree with you... in some things.True,the T.a's tract record is dismill at best. but over the last few years they have been making strides in bringing about improvments to the system.....the new routes program ... on the other hand,made us the laughing stock of the world... its a shame to say it,or see it. other cities continue to build,while we do nothing...but plan,and plan ,and plan somemore. then spend stupid amounts of money to ''study'' the study.... then more CASH TO FORM A committee to study the study of the sudy....to begin a E.I.S.....nd that insane
1) MTA spends a lot more money maintaining and rehabilitating its system than any other transit system. It does little good to expand and build new lines if you don't maintain what you have in good repair.
2) Some of the obstacles are not MTA's doing. This being a democracy, if emnough people say "no" to a project, it doesn't happen. If NIMBYs have enough clout, it doesn't happen. How isd that MTA's fault? You want to fix that, look in the mirror. How many times have each of us gotten up and said "We really want this done" and threatened to not reelect people unless we got it. It's partly our fault.
As to EIS process, that may be long and involved, and sometimes too long, but it does serve a valid and useful purpose. That's not MTA's doing either. If you think it's too long and involved, write to the feds and the state and ask them to streamline it.
There are things that MTA is responsible for not doing well, but as you can see, it isn't a one-sided picture.
i 've done most of those things,and came up against a wall of burrito crap indifference....we have a major project up here in the Capital district under study.... The CDTA's planning to to build a BRT line from Downtown Albany to Schenectady......this has been going on for awhile EVEN BEFORE the commuter rail line was being planned. Window ? about 4 years of study... and guess what? not one shovel,or backhoe. bullshit? yes. 8^)
Yes. So what do you propose as an alternate.
If you want it badly enough, organize your fellow citizens and get it. And put in the time required.
I was involved that way with AirTain for over six years - and now it's here.
Some of the obstacles are not MTA's doing. This being a democracy, if emnough people say "no" to a project, it doesn't happen. If NIMBYs have enough clout, it doesn't happen. How isd that MTA's fault? You want to fix that, look in the mirror. How many times have each of us gotten up and said "We really want this done" and threatened to not reelect people unless we got it. It's partly our fault.
As to EIS process, that may be long and involved, and sometimes too long, but it does serve a valid and useful purpose. That's not MTA's doing either. If you think it's too long and involved, write to the feds and the state and ask them to streamline it.
Community opposition can be a problem anywhere. And federal environmental requirements are nationwide. But other cities manage to get transit projects built. New York cannot.
"Community opposition can be a problem anywhere. And federal environmental requirements are nationwide. But other cities manage to get transit projects built. New York cannot. "
Not true. The same disease afflicts Los Angeles. San Francisco is running into that with the next phase of BART expansion.
We've seen that New Yorkers not being able to agree with each other and not willing to compromise.
Look in the mirror, Peter. (Did you remember to cut holes in the bag, first?)
:0)
you know the biggest headache,dealing with the SAS? The TA itself.Don't get me wrong,I believe they have done a teriffic job getting the system back on its feet after years of neglect[we dont wash the cars.the grime provides a ''protective layer''against rust.]As a kid,I watched the work being done on the SAS,63RD,and Archer lines,waited on them to start Utica ave[never happened]with great excitment. When my pops told me forget aboutit,I didnt know what he was talkin about! shoot,we were getting new subway lines! Then the newscast came,laced with scandles[City has no money to finish it new routes,Mayor takes GRAND SUBWAY PLAN monies to save 50 cent fare,President tells NY>DROP DEAD!]Where Im driving with this,the money WAS there,and then it wasnt.. I can go on and on about the in's and outs of the burrito crapic bullsh*t,but most here already know. The facts are ,the Tax payers PAID FOR these lines TWICE and got nothing,[SAS] and now we gotta do it again! WHAT we did get was a half a loaf at best,and still it's not enough. We spend MILLIONS for PLANS and basically,thats what we got....PLANS...studies.....crap. I guess we are suppose to thank the folks we put in office for that.My personal feeling,too much B.S flying,and not enough dirt. This citiy never fails to amaze me.. we want a subway here... oh no you dont! not here... it might bring the ''BAD ELEMENT''into our sleepy hallow neck ofthe woods.. but trafics so bad here and backed up.. our buses can get us to work on time... tell u what,you pay me for ALLOWING this line thru my neighborhood and its a done deal...my property value will sink faster that the Titanic,so I need some asurances that my house will still be worth the $......[this is that selfish crap the TA dealt with in regards to the Montauk line for 63rd strrt service] People cant agree on nothing unless it directly bennifits them!
(The facts are ,the Tax payers PAID FOR these lines TWICE and got nothing,[SAS] and now we gotta do it again! WHAT we did get was a half a loaf at best,and still it's not enough. We spend MILLIONS for PLANS and basically,thats what we got....PLANS...studies.....crap.)
You're right, but this time it's worse. People caught on to politicians getting political credit for plans, then sending the money elsewhere. They demanded more. So this time, we are getting designs, which are much more expensive.
If they don't break ground in 2004, people should got nuts. And not at the TA or the MTA, at their political bosses.
I'm holding my breath... we have something like that here in Albany... the CDTA wants to build a Bus Rapid Transit Line along Route 5[Central ave/State street].It's been under study for EVER... with no end in sight... while the commuter rail line is ''DEFERRED''untill the burrito craps can get their heads out of the a** TO DECIDE where THEY WANT IT TO FRICKIN GO!!!Does that make any sense? Shouldn't that be decided by the CDTA,and the public[voters]?
I'm holding my breath... we have something like that here in Albany... the CDTA wants to build a Bus Rapid Transit Line along Route 5[Central ave/State street].It's been under study for EVER... with no end in sight... while the commuter rail line is ''DEFERRED''untill the burrito craps can get their heads out of the a** TO DECIDE where THEY WANT IT TO FRICKIN GO!!!Does that make any sense? Shouldn't that be decided by the CDTA,and the public[voters]?
"The facts are ,the Tax payers PAID FOR these lines TWICE and got nothing,[SAS]"
The taxpayers were promised the SAS in the 1960's, but the money was used instead for maintenance and repairs of existing lines - which at the time was actually a better use of the money, considering the ugly shape the subway was in.
But the TA did a lousy job setting priorities and communicating with its patrons.
One of the best things that ever happened to the subway was the formal Capital Plan process, started in 1982.
At the very least, I think the "stubway" portion of the SAS has an awfully good chance of getting built, because the LIRR connection to Grand Central simply isn't viable unless there is significant relief to congestion the Lexington Avenue line.
But I don't discount the probability that the SAS will be completed down to Hanover Square (the currently proposed southern terminal). There was a significant public outcry when the "stubway" was proposed, and as a result the project was expanded to run the full length of Manhattan.
Many readers may recall that when planning for the full-length SAS was restarted a couple of years ago, the MTA announced two options for the southern end: a Nassau Street alignment (which would have leveraged the under-utilized J/M/Z route) and the Water Street alignment (resembling the original plan from the 1960s).
The MTA website has been updated lately, with the Nassau Street alignment being dropped. I tend to doubt that the less expensive of the two options would have been discarded, unless officials were in fact serious about building the full-length SAS. A note on the CB1 website mentioned that the SDEIS is to be published within the next couple of months. (Recently, a non-functioning link to the revised SDEIS was included on the MTA website by mistake; when I pointed it out, the link was removed, but someone at the MTA replied by e-mail that it would be returning shortly.)
I also think it's notable that Hanover Square has been chosen as the southern terminal, which suggests that the possibility of a future extension to Brooklyn is being taken seriously. If this were not the case, I think that South Ferry would be a much more logical southern terminal.
)
(At the very least, I think the "stubway" portion of the SAS has an awfully good chance of getting built, because the LIRR connection to Grand Central simply isn't viable unless there is significant relief to congestion the Lexington Avenue line. )
Sure it is: just take action to make it so city residents can't ride it.
As I've said, as far as I'm concerned East Side Access, the "stubway" portion of Second Avenue, and MetroNorth to Penn is one decision. If, as expected, the State tries to put off even the Stubway until 2015 (at which point every available dollar will be going to the elderly) while building ESA, it is a declaration of (even more) war against NYC. On the other hand, building those improvements and the Flushing extension by 2010 would be a significant improvment for the Downstate Region.
Fulton is probably worse -- not because it's any narrower (it's about the same width or maybe -- maybe -- a hair wider) but because it's a transfer point so it probably has more traffic.
But Wall is still bad. I wonder if a bilevel arrangement, like on the BMT at Fulton, was ever considered.
I've never heard of Hannover Square. Where exactly is it?
As I said, less than a station length south of Wall St., on Water St.
Hanover square midway between Wall and Broad streets, and between Pearl and Water streets. When the Second/Third Ave. el ran down to South Ferry, it made an 'S' curve at Hanover square, coming up Water St. and then going one block north to Pearl and continuing uptown to Chatham Square (Water street wasn't widened to it's current configuration until the 1950s -- back in the el days it was as wide as the surviving section between Fulton St. and the Brooklyn Bridge).
(minor point: it came up Front St.)
(not Water)
Just wanted to let you know that I was not denigrating your ideas, just trying to give some of my insight (as little as that is) to the discussion.
Ok, the Stubway is only 40% of the length, but you did say 1/4 of the price. Well, that is only a 15% difference, so maybe the Stub would be ok.
Prelim costs (pre construction), as I have seen, from 2002-2004, are $2-3 billion. I can not vouch for the validity of those numbers. I can not also itemize those costs, ie. how much has been spent, what will be spent in the next year, if those costs include prototypes of systmes, etc. I have only seen the "overall" cost figures.
No, extension plans are not on the MTA's website, these are internal discussions that have been taking place within and between NYCT and DHA as possible "good things" (lacking a better phrase).
As for the Hannover Square part, just a fact correction, not a criticsm.
There is also a rumor that the MTA will not fund construction in their next capital plan. But this is a rumor, and you did not hear it here.
(Rumor)
I expect that the 2005 to 2009 capital plan will consist exclusively of paying off the debts of the 2000 to 2004 capital plan with no construction. Our transit system was put on the road back to the 1970s in 1999, and everyone said so at the time -- except Pataki, Bruno, Silver, and the MTA's well paid advisers at Bear Stearns (who now want yet another tax break in exchange for again not leaving the city).
Yup, I pretty much agree, 2nd ave retreads itself. There goes my freakin' project. We had some really slick shit to put in there.
sigh...
"If you just do the Stubway, well, we already did the conceptual and prelim engineering (not final, but that is just refinements), so you already sunk about 3 billion."
Off by about 3 orders of magnitude. Millions, not billions, have been spent.
"there are plans to extend the line past 125th street into the Bronx, and (less certain) plans to run the line into Brooklyn."
These are only provisions. There are no plans to do either.
bryan1945 claims to be working on the SAS design. So I do wish he'd explain where the billions number comes from. On the other hand, he's being so careful to protect his identity that I doubt we'll get any kind of real explanation, especially if his statement has any truth to it.
1. If MTA has spent billions, there's a public document somewhere showing it.
2. Even MTA isn't so ineffecient that they spend 25% of a project's budget on preliminary design. By the time the whole project is done, it may get to that high for all design work. But it only takes a percent or two to get through the EIS work, and they are only on the SDEIS right now.
Simon and AIM,
The 2-3 billion dollar figure I've quoted was from a project plan I've seen presented in project meetings. Again, I can not validate the veracity of this figure, nor what "pre-construction costs" include.
I may very well have been misinformed or misread the numbers. I presented the facts as I know as well as I could.
I'd love to give you guys a tour of the offices just so you could see the massive amounts of engineering we have put into this thing; we have walls and walls full of engineering drawings, plus artistic renditions and scale models of the stations.
Ok, this is disturbing considering the work I put into my previously posted 3D project, so who wants to suggest a new fictional subway line to be 'built'?
huh?
Amen.
The only other segment that makes sense is a true "stubway" continuing down from 63rd down to 42nd. Anything south of that is not cost-effective, and is money that should be spent elsewhere (such as improving cross-town service in those areas).
They sure better be breaking out the cost and ridership estimates by segments in the SDEIS. The tendency is to aggregate all this data into an all-or-nothing proposition.
"The only other segment that makes sense is a true "stubway" continuing down from 63rd down to 42nd. Anything south of that is not cost-effective, and is money that should be spent elsewhere (such as improving cross-town service in those areas). "
An interesting opinion, but one clearly not shared by most New Yorkers, or even well supported by evidence. There are all kinds of numbers flying around, and the Second av subway is as cost-effective as anything currently on the table.
I wonder what London Underground customers would say if I said that rebuilding the Central Line isn't worth it - replace it with buses!
"An interesting opinion, but one clearly not shared by most New Yorkers, or even well supported by evidence."
What poll? What evidence?
"I wonder what London Underground customers would say if I said that rebuilding the Central Line isn't worth it - replace it with buses!"
Who has suggested that a subway line be replaced with buses?
"I wonder what London Underground customers would say if I said that rebuilding the Central Line isn't worth it - replace it with buses!"
An aside to the main argument, but please note that the current problem with the Central Line is not the line, it's the trains. The line doesn't need rebuilding, but the trains have to be modified to the satisfaction of the Health & Safety Executive.
Yes, true.
I wonder what London Underground customers would say if I said that rebuilding the Central Line isn't worth it - replace it with buses!
Apart from the fact that it is not the line that needs repair, have you ever been to Oxford Street? It's already got so many buses on it that they scarcely move at all.
So the answer is simple: unfold metal ramps from one to the next, allowing passengers to walk through from one bus to the next!
:0)
I prefer what we already have - at least sometimes - buses where you get on and off at the back without doors - so on a street like Oxford Street, you can just leap on and off where-ever (at least unofficially).
(I wonder what London Underground customers would say if I said that rebuilding the Central Line isn't worth it - replace it with buses!)
Not quite a good comparison. The main troubles with the SAS below 63rd are that (a) it wouldn't eliminate the majority of the trips currently taken on the 2nd Ave bus (b) all the 2nd Ave buses together wouldn't really fill up 1 train per hour and (c) for 85% of trips of people who live on 2nd Ave, the SAS wouldn't get them where they want to go.
I just don't see how the lower SAS can achieve 6 full rush hour tph, which is the minimum that would justify a new line.* I think an extension of the E into SE Queens, properly fed by bus routes, could do better at lower cost.
* Note that the MTA projection to the FTA is 600K rider entries per week for the ENTIRE LINE, which is probably only 12 rush hour tph. 10 of those 12 should be Q extension usage, leaving 2 tph of actual usage between 63rd and Water St. As a sanity check, note that the entire Lex line, because it uses smaller IRT trains, only runs 36 IND-equivalent trains per hour.
"Note that the MTA projection to the FTA is 600K rider entries per week for the ENTIRE LINE"
Those were weekday boardings. How does this change the tph calculations?
"Note that the MTA projection to the FTA is 600K rider entries per week for the ENTIRE LINE"
And in what context is that offered? One week after the line opens? Six months after it opens? Two years after it opens?
Washington Metrorail made projections about the Green Line while planning it. The train doors are in danger of bursting open because of the loads they've seen. Somebody badly underestimated demand.
I suspect that's going to be the case here. It wouldn't be the first time.
My mistake.
It's 600K weekday rides, not weekly.
The projection is for 2020.
More impressive than I'd thought.
Thank you.
So let's compare: Queens Blvd. gets 900,000 riders, and SAS will be getting 600,000 as ridership builds up. And only two blocks off the Lex.
Sounds pretty good to me.
You keep helping me prove why the SAS is a great idea.
"You keep helping me prove why the SAS is a great idea."
Let's find out where those 591,000 are getting on and off, then we judge whether the whole SAS is worth it. (By the way, this number was 1,135,000 in last year's report. What happened? Simple math error?)
My guess is the feds already have the detail, and just gave a huge nudge to MTA to get them to go back to the stubway. The SDEIS hopefully will give us the basis to have an informed debate.
(By the way, this number was 1,135,000 in last year's report. What happened? Simple math error?)
591K is getting on only. Perhaps the 1,135,000 is getting on and off.
Incidentally, I wonder if they count those neither getting on nor off, e.g., transferring from the 6 at 125th and riding into existing Q train territory.
If to follow your logic, there would be few lines where dropping the service could be the most cost effective. In order to get some backing (incidental) to my point I'd suggest Sea Beach (Fred, go decimate them)
:-)
Arti
Spending millions to keep a marginal line going is one way not to be cost-effective; spending billions more than is necessary is entirely another.
Another way to look at it: there is no need to shut any lines down under today's conditions. Saddle MTA with $16.8 billion in new debt, and that could change.
"Not quite a good comparison. The main troubles with the SAS below 63rd are that (a) it wouldn't eliminate the majority of the trips currently taken on the 2nd Ave bus (b) all the 2nd Ave buses together wouldn't really fill up 1 train per hour and (c) for 85% of trips of people who live on 2nd Ave, the SAS wouldn't get them where they want to go."
You state a lot of statistics for which you provide no documented evidence.
(You state a lot of statistics for which you provide no documented evidence.)
Evidence:
MTA bus schedules. Note small number of express buses, reflecting the demand for local service.
MTA subway map indicating the best current subway to anywhere.
Map of square footage of office space in Manhattan.
Methodology:
Pick a few representative residential and office locations. Estimate percentage of time SAS is best route.
Here's the problem -- the Lexington is the best route too much of the time. Something has to be done to move some people off it. Instead, ESA will put more people onto it.
BTW, my original low cost Stubway counterproposal: built the the line with no stations, or just one station at 72nd, then hook it into the Pelham Line from 125th north. The Lex local would originate at 125th, so you'd have two expresses and one local on the east side. Almost everyone from 125th and north would ride one of the two expresses from 125th south, leaving room on the local.
The MTA had considered having the SAS run on the #6 line in the Bronx. This was a relatively recent proposal, in additio to hooking the line up to the #5 train, which was also proposed at one time.
Were you the author of, or did you contribute to, the MTA proposal about the #6 (this was an internal discussion which apparently was not formally presented in public).
Too bad they can no longer hook the SAS into the 5 line - the TA is building some sort of bus facility in the path of the old Boston & Westchester ROW at 177th Street. They can only use the 6 line or share Amtrak's NE Corridor if they're looking for an existing ROW to use for the Bronx portion.
Too bad they can no longer hook the SAS into the 5 line - the TA is building some sort of bus facility in the path of the old Boston & Westchester ROW at 177th Street.
Just like the lower level of the 42nd St Station or the recent Main St Flushing rehab.
BTW, my original low cost Stubway counterproposal: built the the line with no stations, or just one station at 72nd, then hook it into the Pelham Line from 125th north. The Lex local would originate at 125th, so you'd have two expresses and one local on the east side. Almost everyone from 125th and north would ride one of the two expresses from 125th south, leaving room on the local.
Except then you'd have to deal with the mortal opposition of the Upper East Siders, who'd have to deal with the disruption of construction for a line they couldn't ride. Yes, they'd benefit through less crowding on the Lex, but an indirect benefit like that probably wouldn't be enough to stave off the opposition.
"MTA bus schedules. Note small number of express buses, reflecting the demand for local service. "
But not reflecting demand for subway service, nor reflecting what people do once offered subway service, nor reflecting what businesses and landlords and developers then do when they know subway service is coming (and you can see evidence of this everywhere new subway lines have opened in the last 25 years). So what you're looking at reflects, at best, about a third of the true picture. Not irrelevant, but incomplete.
"MTA subway map indicating the best current subway to anywhere."
The subways, historically, were not built entirely in response to rational demand. You already know that. Or am I misinterpreting what your sentence means?
"Map of square footage of office space in Manhattan."
Bad evidence. It actually proves just the opposite. The areas you're looking at easily support subway service just as they are.
Methodology:
P"ick a few representative residential and office locations. Estimate percentage of time SAS is best route."
Given which population having which opportunity? Roosevelt Island wasn't a hot residential destination until the 63rd Street line opened. Look at what PATH and the promise of Hudson Bergen light rail did to Jersey City.
You have zero evidence here to prove your point. But you did help me prove mine. Thank you!
_MTA bus schedules. Note small number of express buses, reflecting the demand for local service. _
Looks like you are fishing. In reality LTD service on M15 is more frequent on weekdays than local. I personally will never even try to catch a local as it would be as stupid as waiting for Fift Ave local south of 34th Street.
Arti
The great blunder of the 2Av was the 63rd St alignment, instead of 61st.
Unless the 2Av is extended way down into midtown, 1st or 2nd Av buses would still be the best bet below 63rd.
Have you ever noticed how 2Av buses travel in convoys at rush hour? Ten or more at a time, then none for the next ten or twenty minutes?
(Unless the 2Av is extended way down into midtown, 1st or 2nd Av buses would still be the best bet below 63rd.
Have you ever noticed how 2Av buses travel in convoys at rush hour? Ten or more at a time, then none for the next ten or twenty minutes?)
I've personally never noticed a 2nd Ave convoy of more than 5 buses. But that's enought to mean none for quite a while thereafter.
(Have you ever noticed how 2Av buses travel in convoys at rush hour? Ten or more at a time, then none for the next ten or
twenty minutes?) I've personally never noticed a 2nd Ave convoy of more than 5 buses. But that's enought to mean none for quite a while
thereafter.)
Buses cannot cope with the crowding or congestion in this corridor. That's why service is so bad. If one passenger delays the bus for a few seconds, the next stop is more crowded, leading to an additional delay, etc. If it a testimony to how bad the crowding on the Lex is that anyone rides the buses at all.
(it a testimony to how bad the crowding on the Lex is that anyone rides the buses at all.)
I guarantee you that 2nd Ave bus riders are mostly not avoiding crowding on the Lex. Mostly they are people who would rather spend the time than do lengthy walks to/from the Lex.
Example: get off the L at 1st Ave and take the bus up (say to a job at NYU Hospital). The Lex would be slighty quicker and not crowded (the uptown 6 has plenty of AM capacity), but more of a walk.
Example: elderly people who don't like the subway and don't want to walk to/from the Lex.
Example: lots of people transfer from the 34th St crosstown bus and head down 2nd, getting off at each stop along the way. Why not take the 6, which again has plenty of capacity below 42nd and frequent service at all hours? Less walking (but more time) to take the 2nd Ave bus.
Note that only half the 2nd Ave buses are limiteds. My personal experience indicates this is the right balance in terms of demand. This indicates lots of people taking short rides.
Note also that all these people don't amount to a hill of beans when talking about subway service. There is a local bus and a limited bus each every 5 minutes. That's 24 bph, which is equivalent in capacity to about 1 tph.
"I guarantee you that 2nd Ave bus riders are mostly not avoiding crowding on the Lex. Mostly they are people who would rather spend the time than do lengthy walks to/from the Lex. "
And many of those people would be among the folks riding the SAS when offered to them.
"Example: elderly people who don't like the subway and don't want to walk to/from the Lex. "
That (along with the disabled and folks with strollers and shopping bags and luggage) is an important issue.
The SAS (whatever portion you'd like to consider) will be fully ADA compliant and designed for comfort from the get-go. So you'll find a significant number of people in those categories being able to ride the subway. Not everyone, of course - but they will have a real choice now. And without the walk to the Lex.
"Note also that all these people don't amount to a hill of beans when talking about subway service. There is a local bus and a limited bus each every 5 minutes. That's 24 bph, which is equivalent in capacity to about 1 tph."
Did you (conveniently) forget about buses on Lex, 3rd Av and First Av? SAS ridership would draw from four avenues of bus service, not just one. How many buses is that? If all four streets run 24 buses per hour (I don't know that they do - you can correct me on that), that's 96 buses per hour, which amounts to 4 trains per hour, or 2 trains per hour in the peak direction.
And that doesn't count the folks ho are now crammed on the Lex.
So here's the argument for the full SAS.
1. Add up the two big components: Lex avoidance and the vast unserved areas on the upper east side. Anybody who resides on the UES east of Lex will find the SAS a good way to get to lots of places. Though this mostly applies to the stubway also.
2. Random bus passengers who would take a subway if there is one. Not much by subway standards but it helps. This partially applies to the stubway.
3. Good connections with the 4, 5, 6, 7, F (twice), E, V, L, B, and D feed traffic in. If you're going from virtually anywhere to (a) midtown east of Lex, (b) the hospitals on 1st Ave, or (c) Water St, the SAS makes a convenient last leg of your trip. This does not apply to the stubway.
The argument against the SAS (as opposed to the stubway) is:
1. The stubway is critical to prevent such overcrowding on the Lex that well-off people leave the city, dramatically reducing tax revenues and economic viability.
2. The rest of the SAS is just a matter of minor convenience to many people. It subtracts minutes off trips, saves a few dollars on buses, etc. Add up the cost of the rest of the SAS, divide by the incremental time saved by people, and what do you get in capital dollars per hour of person time spent? I don't know the answer, but I fear it is very large. I really have no idea how it compares to EAS.
What do you think the real estate industry would say to this.
1) Bloomberg/Pataki has decided not to build the SAS because unlike the far west side, the east side has no more development potential. Good thing, because the Lex and the streets are over-full right now.
2) So why not impose a permanent development moratorium on the entire area east of 5th Avenue and north Chambers Street? Nothing to lose, right?
Compare the quality of life of those living on the East Side with the federal, state and local taxes they pay, and have paid since the early 1950s when bonds were first floated for the Second Avenue. Do you think they've earned it?
1. The stubway is critical to prevent such overcrowding on the Lex that well-off people leave the city, dramatically reducing tax revenues and economic viability."
No, that's actually true in the long run for the whole SAS, not just the Stubway. But we have to start with something.
And your Argument #2 is entirely unsupported.
A reasonable argument, ignoring politics completely, against the SAS is that New York needs other projects first (like new subways in Queens). But that's a political decision, not just a financial decision. Even if, for example, I want to build a train to La Guardia first, or extend the J along Archer Avenue deeper into Jamaica, or build a new tunnel to extend the E into Rosedale, or (you pick whatever you want) I have to consider how many people are pushing for it, how much political opposition there is (NIMBY and other types) and is the agency willing to do it?
SAS has no political opposition within New York, overwhelming support, no NIMBY to speak of and the agency is willing to build it.
A similar situation existed with AirTrain vs. the LIRR Rockaway branch. The former had an agency with budget (even one not involving general taxes!) and a mandate to build, no significant NIMBY (the airlines' lobbyist got his head chopped off and served to him on a plate- with yours truly helping), a great ROW in the Van Wyck, and lots of people for it. The Rockaway Line had a mountain of NIMBY, the MTA not willing to build it, no capacity on the LIRR to serve it (OK, ESA will change that), and significant engineering/ROW problems which would have raised the cost. It was politically and logistically not possible to do it.
If we lived in a benevolent dictatorship, perhaps the dictator would build other lines first. But we don't. So we do the best we can.
"Have you ever noticed how 2Av buses travel in convoys at rush hour? Ten or more at a time, then none for the next ten or twenty minutes?)"
A bus rider's nightmare. Not unique to NY, of course. My condolensces to you.
(Unless the 2Av is extended way down into midtown, 1st or 2nd Av buses would still be the best bet below 63rd.)
I forgot to say: without a full length SAS, the best way to travel up and down 1st or 2nd for able bodied people will be exactly what it is now: walk to the Lex, take the Lex, walk back east again. Since I live right near 2nd Ave, I do this quite a bit.
Good for your heart, actually.
I owe a lot of my not being overweight to my use of transit. Walk to the subway (or bus), ride the bus, walk a couple of blocks to work, store, school, what have you, then back again. Walk upstairs, walk downstairs...
Using a car on a reglar basis would not be good for my health.
Yes, when I'm traveling I consider "wasted" time to be only the time spent sitting and standing. Walking time is productive exercise time and doesn't count.
Living in the east village allows me to have a reasonable walk to almost any subway. I try whenever possible to walk to whatever subway allows me a single seat ride (except, in the rain, comfort takes priority over exercise).
You're a practical person.
"The great blunder of the 2Av was the 63rd St alignment, instead of 61st. "
Couldn't be helped. Too many important institutions and people objected to the 61 St alignment. Besides, there's already a major interchange station at 59th Street.
It was unfortunate in some ways, but not a great blunder. I personally would have liked to see it aligned further north (say, 68th Street), so that a free interchange with the IRT station at 68th Street-Hunter College could be established. Would that have caused a major problem in building stations at Roosevelt Island and Queens? Would that have prevented the line from being efficiently plugged into Queens Boulevard?
(Couldn't be helped. Too many important institutions and people objected to the 61 St alignment.)
IIRC, 61st St was shot down because it would be more expensive construction. The MTA wanted 64th St, and Rockefeller U successfully lobbied against that because of their seismograph.
(Besides, there's already a major interchange station at 59th Street.)
All the better. The F would be more popular, reducing congestion on the E, if they had built it on 61st and built a connecting tunnel to the Lex at 60th. You'd also unload more people from the downtown Lex at 59th if they had an easy transfer to the F and maybe also the Q. That wouldn't reduce the max density on the 4/5/6 between 86th and 59th but would reduce the platform/entry/exit congestion at GCT.
"IIRC, 61st St was shot down because it would be more expensive construction. The MTA wanted 64th St, and Rockefeller U successfully lobbied against that because of their seismograph. "
Thank you. You're right. I do remember a NIMBY problem - didn't the MTA want a 64th Street alignment at one time?
"All the better. The F would be more popular, reducing congestion on the E, if they had built it on 61st and built a connecting tunnel to the Lex at 60th. You'd also unload more people from the downtown Lex at 59th if they had an easy transfer to the F and maybe also the Q. That wouldn't reduce the max density on the 4/5/6 between 86th and 59th but would reduce the platform/entry/exit congestion at GCT.
That's certainly possible. But it's spilled milk now.
Have you ever noticed how 2Av buses travel in convoys at rush hour? Ten or more at a time, then none for the next ten or twenty minutes?
It's been like that for at least 40 years. Even before the advent of limited buses, the Second Ave. M-15 buses would play a massive game of leap-frog downtown (and uptown on First Ave., to a lesser extent), with emptier buses passing the more crowded ones at some stops -- fine if you happen to be someone getting on a few blocks south of there; miserable if you're waiting at that stopped an a jammed-to-the-gills bus opens its door while the one with plenty of seats goes shooting by.
(The other side of the Second Ave. bus game is the "take what you can get" rule, which is, when you're going someplace south of Houston St., and the jammed buses stop at yor stop while the first empty ones shoot by, if you decide to be smart and wait for a less-crowded bus in the back of the pack, you are 100 percent guarenteed of getting s short-turn bus that will either say "14th Street" or "Houston Street" on its destination sign, after which, of course, there will be another 20 minute wait before the next South Ferry or Park Row bus comes by)
I think they should at least build it to the United Nations. That's the least they can do.
N Bwy
'Stubway +'
I hope the SDEIS tells us what this much would cost, and how much ridership it would have. It may be the logical phase 1.
(I think they should at least build it to the United Nations. That's the least they can do.)
Ideally I would agree with you. But take a look at what it means:
Now you have to run two separate services: the Q extension and also 125th to 42nd/2nd.
The latter service is only going to get people who want to go from the eastern UES to the office buildings on Lex and east in the 40s and 50s.
That's a whole bunch of people, but nowhere near enough to even fill 6 IND-size train per hour.
Result: double the operational cost, but very little added revenue. Reluctantly, I suggest that if you want to go from 2nd and 86th to 2nd and 42nd, you should take the Lex.
"Now you have to run two separate services: the Q extension and also 125th to 42nd/2nd."
That is true whenever you have branching lines. Of course, the full 2nd av subway is designed to operate a main trunk and a branching service to Broadway or Sixth Av.
"The latter service is only going to get people who want to go from the eastern UES to the office buildings on Lex and east in the 40s and 50s. "
No, more accurately people from UES and those transferring from the Bronx (this will not be an indsignificant number), going to addresses down to the 30s - including the UN itself, which is a major employer.
However, it will not reach lower Manhattan - so your basic point is correct.
"Result: double the operational cost, but very little added revenue"
Agreed. If this were done, it would have to be as an additional operational segment while the extension to Wall Street got finished. That would have the effect of encouraging riders to come down that far, and helping build ridership for the final segment, when it opens.
That is true whenever you have branching lines. Of course, the full 2nd av subway is designed to operate a main trunk and a branching service to Broadway or Sixth Av.
And unless the whole line is 4 tracks (which it's not), it will fail to alleviate congestion on the 4/5/6. Let those who really need the East Side south of 60th St and lower Manhattan stay on the IRT. Let the "stubway" absorb all those who want to go to the West Side. These people are currently jamming the transfer points at 59th St, 51st St and Grand Central. The "stubway" would render the 42nd St. shuttle expendable.
"And unless the whole line is 4 tracks (which it's not), it will fail to alleviate congestion on the 4/5/6."
False and illogical on its face.
"The "stubway" would render the 42nd St. shuttle expendable."
An interesting opinion. How much traffic would it actually siphon off of the Shuttle? When the Stubway opens, we'll actually get to see that. One thing to keep in mind is that they are 20 blocks apart.
Sorry, I wasn't finished typing. It could siphon traffic off of it, but not all users are coming from the same place. Thus, I suspect there will still be a use for it.
False and illogical on its face.
Whose gonna choose to take a local train to lower Manhattan when the Lexington Ave IRT has an express option? No one on the UES who sorks in the financial district will choose to use the 2nd Ave line over the Lex IRT.
An interesting opinion. How much traffic would it actually siphon off of the Shuttle? When the Stubway opens, we'll actually get to see that. One thing to keep in mind is that they are 20 blocks apart.
I'm assuming the Q will be routed up the stubway route. The Q will go directly to/from Times Sq. making the whole point of using the shuttle from TS to GC for the Lex IRT pointless.
"Whose gonna choose to take a local train to lower Manhattan when the Lexington Ave IRT has an express option? "
The SAS' stations are roughly the equivalent of express stops, except for 116th Street. And people on the UES will not walk an extra two blocks to get an identical service with no available seating.
"I'm assuming the Q will be routed up the stubway route. The Q will go directly to/from Times Sq."
Correct.
" making the whole point of using the shuttle from TS to GC for the Lex IRT pointless."
The Shuttle itself used to be part of a crosstown line. How ironic that would be.
However, you must remember that SAS will not remove all riders from the Lex - just some of them. The rest will still need the Times Square Shuttle, because the SAS will not serve them all.
Very true! like riders from the Bronx, which the SAS won't serve and the Metro North Commuter Railroad.
N Bwy
"like riders from the Bronx, which the SAS won't serve and the Metro North Commuter Railroad"
Passengers from the 4,5,6 lines in the Bronx or from Metro-North could transfer to the SAS at 125th on to the Q train that would start there, and thus ride to midtown destinations without using the Grand Central to Times Square shuttle.
They *could*. Of course, given the renowned opposition of New Yorkers to any innovations of any kind on their subway, whether they would is another question!
(Passengers from the 4,5,6 lines in the Bronx or from Metro-North could transfer to the SAS at 125th on to the Q train that would start there, and thus ride to midtown destinations without using the Grand Central to Times Square shuttle.
They *could*. Of course, given the renowned opposition of New Yorkers to any innovations of any kind on their subway, whether they would is another question!)
1. Not sure it would be as fast. Stops take time on the subway, especially in rush hour.
2. MNRR seating is more comfortable than subway seating. Why give up your nice seat 10 minutes early?
3. The shuttle is more convenient than the Q extension if you're going to Penn and want to change to the 1/2/3.
The shuttle will still have plenty of customers.
The SAS' stations are roughly the equivalent of express stops, except for 116th Street. And people on the UES will not walk an extra two blocks to get an identical service with no available seating.
North of 63rd St. The SAS will make all stops into lower Manhattan. The Lexington Ave. express is faster and will retain the bulk of passangers headed from the UES to lower Manhattan if a full length SAS is built according to plans.
However, you must remember that SAS will not remove all riders from the Lex - just some of them. The rest will still need the Times Square Shuttle, because the SAS will not serve them all.
True. But what the stubway will do is remove the thousands of passangers who use Grand Central, 58th St and 51st St. as a x-fer point to lines taking them over to the West Side. This is the major benefit of the stubway. It'a a crosstown line, providng the UES with a 1 seat ride to popular west side locations (Times Sq, Herald Sq, 57th St).
And unless the whole line is 4 tracks (which it's not), it will fail to alleviate congestion on the 4/5/6.
It will still help a good deal, but a four-track line with closely spaced local stops would certainly do a better job.
The "stubway" would render the 42nd St. shuttle expendable.
Explain how the stubway will help me get from 86th and Broadway to 33rd and Park.
(Explain how the stubway will help me get from 86th and Broadway to 33rd and Park.)
- 1 from 86th to 42nd.
- Q from 42nd to Lex/63rd.
- 6 from Lex/60th to 33rd.
(Just kidding)
Explain how the stubway will help me get from 86th and Broadway to 33rd and Park.
1/9-to-7-to-6
I don't want to eliminate the shuttle. I'm just saying the stubway will take a huge chunk of it's patronage away.
Only towards Times Square in the morning and towards Grand Central in the afternoon. In the other direction, the crowds won't decrease much if at all.
I share the operational concerns of continuing the extra mile. Also, constucting the tangle of intersecting tunnels would be very pricey.
The Harlem-UES segment looks to be the most cost-effective, though there are some pretty good densities through east midtown. But increasingly residential: I believe the City has drawn the line, and all commercial must now stop at 3rd Ave.
Still, release the results of the models for each segment. (The consultants have no doubt done this. The only question is whether they will be made public.) If this 63rd-42nd segment doesn't pencil out, continuing the line several more miles through much lower densities REALLY makes no sense.
"I share the operational concerns of continuing the extra mile. Also, constucting the tangle of intersecting tunnels would be very pricey. "
It was part of the original design.
"The Harlem-UES segment looks to be the most cost-effective, though there are some pretty good densities through east midtown. But increasingly residential: I believe the City has drawn the line, and all commercial must now stop at 3rd Ave."
That's very murky line. And it really doesn't apply the lower Manhattan.
"If this 63rd-42nd segment doesn't pencil out, continuing the line several more miles through much lower densities REALLY makes no sense."
The only thing that makes no sense is what you just posted. In fact, the line extension from 63-42 probably makes less sense only if you DO NOT extend the line to lower Manhattan.
We have a lot of nonsense to disabuse you of, don't we?
(In fact, the line extension from 63-42 probably makes less sense only if you DO NOT extend the line to lower Manhattan.)
Can you restate that so it's not a double negative? Not sure what you mean.
(But increasingly residential: I believe the City has drawn the line, and all commercial must now stop at 3rd Ave."
That's very murky line. And it really doesn't apply the lower Manhattan.)
The line is not in the least bit murky. We may not know where it runs, but murky it isn't. Every square inch of the city has specific zoning.
Roughly speaking, the allowable density drops off on 3rd Ave below 39th St so that office buildings no longer make sense below that point. This is due to neighborhood concerns, long range planning goals, and the depth and solidity of the bedrock.
Certainly there is no construction of office buildings below 39th and east of Park. It also holds below 14th if you consider 4th Ave/Lafayette St/Centre St to be the southward continuation of Park Ave South. Not until Fulton St do office buildings show up on the far east side of Manhattan again.
Here's the basic point:
If $16 billion isn't available, the full length SAS threatens the building of anything at all.
If $16 billion IS available, is the SAS south of 63rd the right place to put the money. Wouldn't some well placed extensions in Queens be more cost effective?
What frightens me is the estimate the MTA gave the FTA that for every passenger-hour of use the SAS gets in its entire lifetime, its cost will be $39 in today's dollars. Surely there are projects in Queens, or even in Kansas City, with better return on investment.
"(In fact, the line extension from 63-42 probably makes less sense only if you DO NOT extend the line to lower Manhattan.) " - Ron
"Can you restate that so it's not a double negative? Not sure what you mean.?"
My apologies if it was unclear. What I meant to say was that, if MTA is going to spend the money on the line, it should build it to Wall Street, because only building it only as far as 42nd is probably not cost effective (though others may disagree). So the dichotomy is: build the Stubway only, or build the full length (to Wall Street, or hooking it into a BMT line etc. etc.)
That's very murky line. And it really doesn't apply the lower Manhattan.)
"The line is not in the least bit murky. We may not know where it runs, but murky it isn't. Every square inch of the city has specific zoning. "
Which is subject to change, variances, etc. ad nauseum. It's a political issue. You missed the point.
Roughly speaking, the allowable density drops off on 3rd Ave below 39th St so that office buildings no longer make sense below that point. This is due to neighborhood concerns, long range planning goals, and the depth and solidity of the bedrock.
"Certainly there is no construction of office buildings below 39th and east of Park. It also holds below 14th if you consider 4th Ave/Lafayette St/Centre St to be the southward continuation of Park Ave South. Not until Fulton St do office buildings show up on the far east side of Manhattan again."
All right. But there is still more than enough density to support subway service, and those residents have, in fact been bugging their elected officials for it.
Now, if you wanted to, just for the hell of it, you could consider deleting stops in the relatively lower density areas, so that the Second Av subway, once it left midtown would run "express" to Fulton Street. Just a thought experiment, if you like.
"If $16 billion isn't available, the full length SAS threatens the building of anything at all.
If $16 billion IS available, is the SAS south of 63rd the right place to put the money. Wouldn't some well placed extensions in Queens be more cost effective?"
You put far too much credence into that number without considering its context. A better question would be, what specific allocation asnd % of Capital Plan in the 2000-2004 period is being spent ($1.05 billion if I recall correctly), how much in the 2005-2009 period, and how much in 2010-2014 period?
Answer those questions first, then come back and we'll talk again.
I'd rather see the stubway extended into a new 49th St. X-town, with tail tracks just past 8th, with stations at 6th and B'way/7th stretching to 8th (with a box at Lex for later development). It would be wildly popular.
I suspect, tho', that it would cost almost as much as sending the SAS all the way to Old Slip/Hanover Sq.
The idea is you'd eventually extend the 2Av south, with a new tube across the E River at 49th for service over the LIE.
Congested area. How come there's no wide street between 42nd and 57th, e.g. 49th or 50th? Never figured out what they were thinking in 1811.
Or between 57th and 72nd. Yet just a few blocks past 72nd is 79th, and then 86th.
Must have been the politics of the landowners in the "country." They were planning for a larger population than anywhere "this side of China" as I recall, so these inefficiencies are out of character for their relentless grid.
And why are some blocks between avenues longer than others? Landowner Ruggles (of Grammercy Park fame) later had to invent Madison and Lexington to break up the mega-blocks on either side of 4th.
Has someone written the book on this subject? We keep bumping up against the results of their decisions two centuries on. Like the need for better crosstown movement at about 49th.
"It was part of the original design."
Doesn't change the price tag.
"That's very murky line."
It's a very clear line in the zoning. And there is no effort to change it.
"The only thing that makes no sense is what you just posted. In fact, the line extension from 63-42 probably makes less sense only if you DO NOT extend the line to lower Manhattan."
East side 63rd-42nd has very high densities with relatively little subway coverage. Anything that better serves the east side deserves consideration -- such as East Side Access, which doesn't extend downtown either.
"We have a lot of nonsense to disabuse you of, don't we?"
Still waiting to be disabused. Condescension doesn't change the facts.
(East side 63rd-42nd has very high densities with relatively little subway coverage.)
Absolutely true.
The catch is that extending the SAS south from 63rd to 42nd won't be helpful to more than a tiny percentage of the people in the city who want to get there. Conversely, the people who can use the SAS probably only have about a 10-15% chance of wanting to go there.
It might actually make more sense, if extending the SAS to 42nd, to activate the Queens link and use that stub as a way to short turn about 6 F tph and also take some of the pressure of the Lex/53rd station.
The question is, can a stub south from 63rd to 42nd comfortably fill 6 rush hour trains per hour? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but not certain.
I believe that only the Harlem-UES segment will be built. But I also concede that there's another mile of 2nd Avenue that could really use more transit and further relieve the Lex. There probably isn't a cost-effective way to do it, but it's worth exploring.
"It's a very clear line in the zoning. And there is no effort to change it."
I wouldn't count on that holding. Subweay development has a funny way of propelling change. And the existing densities are plenty good enough.
"It's a very clear line in the zoning. And there is no effort to change it."
I wouldn't count on that holding. Subweay development has a funny way of propelling change. And the existing densities are plenty good enough.
"East side 63rd-42nd has very high densities with relatively little subway coverage. Anything that better serves the east side deserves consideration -- such as East Side Access, which doesn't extend downtown either. "
I support East Side Access, but many of those customers do in fact, want to go downtown.
"Still waiting to be disabused. Condescension doesn't change the facts. "
I wasn't been condescending. I was merely ribbing you (unfortunately message boards are not good at conveying facial expression. Lighten up.
The facts are, you've posted an oopinion with little evidence to support it.
"I wasn't been condescending. I was merely ribbing you (unfortunately message boards are not good at conveying facial expression. Lighten up."
Neat tactic... I was ribbing too. Lighten up.
"The facts are, you've posted an oopinion with little evidence to support it."
Funny, I've been posting mostly facts on SAS, including a great deal of information that isn't in the papers. You've been mostly posting unsupported opinions (like suggesting NYC zoning is easily changed in this post). Or is this another joke?
"I wasn't been condescending. I was merely ribbing you (unfortunately message boards are not good at conveying facial expression. Lighten up."
Neat tactic... I was ribbing too. Lighten up.
Do we go to swords next? Or daggers? :0)
"Funny, I've been posting mostly facts on SAS, including a great deal of information that isn't in the papers"
Uh, no, not really. You've been posting some facts, but much of your information lacks proper context. That makes it a lot less useful and applicable. You've also not been able to draw appropriate conclusions from the information you have.
"You've been mostly posting unsupported opinions (like suggesting NYC zoning is easily changed in this post)"
This is not unsupported opinion. It's political reality. In fact, most of what I've posted is easily verifiable. I'm also not tone-deaf politically, though your posts do not consider politics at all. That also tends to undermine your position.
"I'm also not tone-deaf politically, though your posts do not consider politics at all. That also tends to undermine your position."
If you think NYC's tough zoning laws don't reflect political reality, you don't understand the City's politics.
"You've also not been able to draw appropriate conclusions from the information you have."
... i.e. you disagree with me. Well, I say the full SAS is dead because of ballooning costs and because the feds have bailed. If I'm wrong, we'll find out in due course. In the meantime, I'm advocating the stubway, so that we don't get the SAS we've been promised in the past -- namely zip.
(Well, I say the full SAS is dead because of ballooning costs and because the feds have bailed. If I'm wrong, we'll find out in due course.)
That was just a mirage to get approval to tax NYC residents to built East Side Access, which will load more people onto their most crowded subway line. Unfortunately, lots of money has been spent, and lots of MTA employees have worked very hard, only to be duped.
(In the meantime, I'm advocating the stubway.)
That was ALSO just a mirage to get approval to tax NYC residents to built East Side Access, which will load more people onto their most crowded subway line. The decision was made when so much was borrowed for the 2000-2004 capital plan, with no money for SAS construction.
"That was ALSO just a mirage to get approval to tax NYC residents to built East Side Access"
I guess I just don't see LI as that powerful. If ESA was for Westchester/Fairfield, on the other hand...
"I guess I just don't see LI as that powerful."
Bingo. How much time have you spent in the States?
"Bingo. How much time have you spent in the States?"
Lame humor again? Sure keeps coming off as smugness.
I'll assume you're serious: compare the concentration of office towers around Metro North's train station to that around LIRR's station, and you have the answer.
"I'll assume you're serious: compare the concentration of office towers around Metro North's train station to that around LIRR's station, and you have the answer."
I'll have an answer, but not to the question you're thinking of. Midtown is amply fed from three sides, and is a closer commute than downtown is to a lot of people.
I'm not saying Westchester and CT folks aren't powerful - maybe that's why Metro-North tends to run more efficiently than LIRR. But if they were as powerful as you say, ESA would have been shelved, because it doesn't help them enough.
"But if they were as powerful as you say, ESA would have been shelved, because it doesn't help them enough."
Of course not. ESA gives LI workers better access to Westchester executives' office towers.
Not really. You would have to go twenty blocks in the wrong direction into GCT on an LIRR train in order to transfer to a Stamford- or White Plains-bound MNRR train. Few LI commuters will want to do that. Unless an intermediate LIRR/MNRR transfer station is built in the vicinity of 63rd Street. And I haven't heard anything about that even being considered.
"Of course not. ESA gives LI workers better access to Westchester executives' office towers."
That's quite a fantasy you have there. Not that this kind of commute doesn't happen - it does. But your reasoning is unsupported and unsupportable.
But I can understand how someone looking at a map who's actually never been here can come to that conclusion.
OK. I'm tired (it's midnight) and that was a bit harsh. Let's try it again.
A commute from LI to Westchester becomes more convenient if you can transfer at GCT and this does let you do that. But the commute you're talking about is too expensive and takes too long for most people. A few executives will do it; a few office workers will do it. The maids, butlers and clerical types can't afford either the time or the fare (there are plenty doing the reverse commute on Metro-North's Maid Special reverse peak train from the Bronx).
But that hardly qualifies it assomething that the westchester crowd is especially enamored of in terms of spending tax money.
No, the Li folks are, by and large, heading to Brooklyn or to Manhattan.
(ESA gives LI workers better access to Westchester executives' office towers.)
Do you mean the office towers near GCT in Manhattan of companies whose CEOs reside in Westchester? Or do you mean office towers in Westchester.
If the first, I agree.
If the second, in addition to Ron's comments, please note:
1. Westchester doesn't have office towers. It has low rise office buildings spread over 100s of square miles.
2. Only a relatively small fraction of the office space in Westchester and CT is within half a mile of a train station.
I used to work "in" (i.e., a few miles from downtown) White Plains. I live east of Union Square.
My choices were (a) drive (40 minutes with traffic pushing it up to 60 some of the time) or (b) walk + subway + railroad + walk + bus + walk (100 minutes minimum). I drove. I was far from alone among Manhattan residents.
"Do you mean the office towers near GCT in Manhattan of companies whose CEOs reside in Westchester?"
Yes.
Thank you.
Now, see, Simon, I miunderstood your original comment entirely, so I take back much of my reply. (It was also midnight).
Everybody working in Manhattan and using LIRR from LI wanted this. That the people who run the towers in midtown liked it too is a plus.
But they are not all based in Westchester. And you still may be giving them too much credit. But that's OK. It was still a "win win" for the project, even if based purely on selfish interests.
"But they are not all based in Westchester."
I'm simplifying. Fairfield and UES are important, too. My point remains: compare the business district around Metro North's train station to the business district around LIRR/NJT's train station. The former has 700,000 jobs within 1/2 mile. The most recent tower near the latter was residential.
"The former has 700,000 jobs within 1/2 mile. "
OK - then how many jobs does the latter have within a half mile? Your statement compares an apple to an orange.
One item you've missed is that Penn has a lot of shopping nearby - more so than GCT does. It sits below Madison Square Garden; walk east one block and you arrive at Broadway, the Herald Square area, and one of the densest commercial shopping districts in the world, never mind New York.
Do those business owners all live in Metro-North territory?
What is your point?
Surely you admit that the GCT is convenient to a far greater percentage of midtown jobs than Penn? From GCT, by walking or taking a single train 1 or 2 stops, you can get to most midtown office buildings, expect for the area around Penn, which has relatively few large office buildings. From Penn, much of the square footage of midtown office space is a significantly more irritating trip.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that this thread is assuming there is a lot more employment at midtown than there is at Penn.
It is true that there are a lot more office jobs in midtown, but we haven't considered total employment (retail, culture, entertainment, transportation) in the two areas. Comparing a half-mile circle around each station would be interesting.
(It is true that there are a lot more office jobs in midtown, but we haven't considered total employment (retail, culture, entertainment, transportation) in the two areas.)
True, but if you look at shuttle and 1/2/3 traffic between Penn and GCT, it's mostly in the GCT direction in the AM. I've walked from the Lex to the shuttle in the morning and been in danger of being trampled by the oncoming hordes.
Also, the well off folks in the burbs are more likely to work in offices than in Macy's.
Off peak, like midday and weekends, I agree the load is far more balanced. Probably it's even the other way, with more Westchester people heading for Broadway, Lincoln Center and Macy's, than LIRR/NJT people heading for the GCT area.
OK, I like more what you just said. For work, we're headed to midtown. When we're on shopping time, a lot of us head in the direction of Macy's or we take in a show or go to the basketball game at Madison Square Garden.
Heh, I was just an hour ago on 6th Ave, between 14th and 23rd, unbelievable, how busy it is, compare it to Macys's.
Arti
"From Penn, much of the square footage of midtown office space is a significantly more irritating trip."
Yeah, the Tenderloin District is slightly off-center to much of the relatively recent office developments. Although I think it does offer better subway choices for various downtown destinations. What is really needed is some type of dedicated service looping 34th and 42nd Sts., say, river to river. Maybe we should push for that development. Some DBOM arrangement perhaps. Didn't Parsons Brinkerhoff have suggestions along this line?
Well, you could extend the 42nd Street Shuttle and make it into a loop, going from near the UN to Times Square (or further west to 11th Av, south to (where's Javits?) then to to Penn Station-Madison Square Garden, then back across to 34th and back up to the UN.
Good idea. But, also living in the area, I'd say 14th and 23rd would deserve a treat like that.
Arti
"OK - then how many jobs does the latter have within a half mile? Your statement compares an apple to an orange."
I provided the apple. You can provide the orange. I say it is a fraction, do you disagree?
"Do those business owners all live in Metro-North territory?"
Mid- and low-end retail in Herald Sq. etc. Doubt the owners, employees or customers are Metro-North. 5th and Madison, on the other hand, are likely to be.
I'm looking at a job in Putnam County. My choices are:
(1) Drive. Takes about an hour (no traffic on the Saw Mill in that direction); costs $2.50 in tolls (unless I can spare the ten minutes to dodge the Henry Hudson Bridge) plus 4 gallons gas plus miscellaneous other driving expenses per day (figure about $250 per month total), and I can split that if I find someone who needs a ride.
(2) 1/9 to 2/3 to 125/Lenox, walk to 125/Park, train to Brewster, drive to office. Takes about two hours; costs $255 per month (no off-peak discounts available on monthly passes) plus the cost of parking at the Brewster station overnight and on weekends, and as a bonus I get free subway rides on weekends.
That's a great bonus, but it's not enough to push me to the train. Well, I'll try the train for a week -- if I can get work done while riding, it might be worth it. But that's unlikely.
(plus the cost of parking at the Brewster station overnight and on weekends)
One more thing: crime. I occasionally parked my car in the suburbs overnight or weekends for 10 years, and also one summer long ago I parked my bicycle at the New Rochelle train station.
Total results:
1 stolen battery (I forgot to secure my manual hood lock), 1 set of stolen wheel nuts (could have been bad if I hadn't noticed), 1 set of stolen bike gearshift components.
It looks to me as if driving's the best option. The train might be a better idea if the office were within walking distance of Brewster station, but from what you said it looks as if that isn't the case.
If you could have walked or taken some kind of bus service from Brewster (like Peter said), I would do the train, because what's nice about the train is that it's not "wasted" time, or at least not like driving. When you take the train you have a few options: You can sleep, read, do paperwork, work on a laptop, etc. When you drive it's totally wasted time. In addition, with the train, if it says it will arrive at Grand Central at 7:00, within reason, most of the time you will arrive around that time. With driving, who knows, it could be before 7:00, or traffic could make it the drive from hell, and make it 8:00. The one advantage would be driving in the off-peak direction.
Hmmm, the real interesting end to this story will be is if David will still be a staunch supporter of making the commuter railroads' fare/cost ratio more like the subway's - equal fare raises to both!.... Just kidding.......
It's in a suburban office building a few miles away, and the bus doesn't seem to go anywhere close.
Another problem with your train idea is that I'm afraid I'll glue my face to the window rather than work or even sleep.
I don't expect reverse-peak driving on the Saw Mill to be a problem. The only concern is parking back home in Manhattan, but I can park on either side or even at a meter since I'll be using the car again the next morning, and I'm in no particular hurry most evenings. (But Fridays will be a pain, since I do have a strict deadline to be parked and I can't leave the car at a meter.)
The particular fare inequity that makes this trip by train less attractive than it could be is the lack of an off-peak discount (or, equivalently, a peak surcharge) on monthly passes. If the MTA thinks that peak surcharges make sense, why are they only applied to the form of ticket that peak riders are least likely to use? In other words, if it costs more to take a single ride from Brewster to Manhattan than from Manhattan to Brewster in the morning rush, why doesn't it cost more to take a month's worth of rides from Brewster to Manhattan than from Manhattan to Brewster in the morning rush?
But I am perfectly capable of keeping separate my calculations of what policies are best for my wallet and my calculations of what policies make the most sense globally. Maybe I'm stupid, but I've criticized the widespread existence of free municipal parking, especially in areas with high property values, even though I have a car and I park it for free on the street in Manhattan.
Another problem with your train idea is that I'm afraid I'll glue my face to the window rather than work or even sleep.
Yeah, that would actually be my problem too. I never commuted to work by commuter railroad, only pleasure trips, but did use the subway daily for work or school for many years. My daily trip changed a few times over the course of time I used the subway daily. The years I used mostly elevated lines regularly, I rarely was able to read, study, work, etc on the subway, because even though I saw the same scene out the window everyday, I almost always looked out, especially when I had no seat.
The years I used mostly underground lines I got a lot more done on the train. Even on crowded trains I managed to read, or whatever.
I don't expect reverse-peak driving on the Saw Mill to be a problem. The only concern is parking back home in Manhattan, but I can park on either side or even at a meter since I'll be using the car again the next morning, and I'm in no particular hurry most evenings. (But Fridays will be a pain, since I do have a strict deadline to be parked and I can't leave the car at a meter.)
Perhaps you could drive out to work on Friday morning, and leave your car upstate and take the train home on Friday evening (provided it would not be a problem riding the train after sunset - which may be hard to avoid in the winter. And also the problem of having to pay for your subway ride home after arriving at Grand Central after sunset, which I believe may also be a problem). But the disadvantages to this would be no car on Sunday, and you would have to take the train again Monday morning, subsequently "double-paying" about 8 times a month by buying a monthly ticket, but still having to drive sometimes.
As for the monthly passes, I believe they should have "peak" direction monthly passes, and "reverse-peak" montly passes, but that sounds too logical I guess.
(As for the monthly passes, I believe they should have "peak" direction monthly passes, and "reverse-peak" montly passes, but that sounds too logical I guess.)
That was discussed as a way to make it affordable for low wage workers to work in the suburbs but not live there. The problem, as I understand it, is that on most lines the reverse direction really isn't off peak since they don't have capacity. There is only two tracks, and the second track is used for a wrong-railing express. That was the LIRR issue.
Yes, that is true, there is quite a gap in reverse peak service on some lines (like the Ronkonkoma Branch). However, there are trains that go in the opposite direction. If people can fit those trains into their schedules, it shouldn't be a problem to provide "reverse-peak" service to them with a reduced rate monthly pass from the "peak" direction monthly pass.
(The problem, as I understand it, is that on most lines the reverse direction really isn't off peak since they don't have capacity.)
I guess that applies to the LIRR lines. But on MNRR (a) they have at least 3 tracks and (b) they use the outbound track in the AM rush hour to get trains back to the suburbs for another trip in. So the outbound rush hour trains are already there and have spare capacity.
But on MNRR (a) they have at least 3 tracks and (b) they use the outbound track in the AM rush hour to get trains back to the suburbs for another trip in.
Are you sure there are three tracks? The last time I was on the Harlem Line, I seem to only remember two being there for most of the length, and only one after Brewster North. I don't remember the trackage on the Hudson line, but I also thought it was only two tracks all the way north. But again, it's been a while so I could be wrong. (Of course the New Haven line has four tracks all the way).
(Are you sure there are three tracks? )
I'm sure 3 tracks Mt Vernon to White Plains. Not sure about Hudson Line. Parts have 3-4 tracks, but not sure how much.
However, MNRR does manage, in the morning rush, to run a lot of reverse trains. Between 7 and 8 leaving GCT:
- 2 trains to Croton (1 express, 1 local)
- 6 trains to White Plains (4 express, 2 local)
- 4 trains to Stamford (2 express, 2 local)
Even if Hudson Line is only 2 tracks, it doesn't have so many inbound trains that they can't squeeze a few outbound into the mix.
(After years of fights, they're just getting a third track between Mt. Vernon and Crestwood built now.)
That's why we need a third track along the main line (truthfully, I'd put one on the Hempstead branch too.
The issue isn't peak vs. reverse-peak -- it's peak vs. off-peak.
However those periods are defined, there is a price differential on individual tickets but not on weekly or monthly tickets. Why not?
As for Fridays, I have to be home well before sunset to prepare. That inevitably means leaving work early for most of the year. The only problem with driving is that parking sometimes takes a minute and sometimes takes a few hours, so I have to plan on it taking a few hours. The train might be a better option, but single rides are expensive.
But this thinking is all still premature, since I don't even have a formal offer yet.
"In the meantime, I'm advocating the stubway"
I personally appreciate that. I hope that means you can spend a little time writing to Governor Pataki, Mayor Bloomberg and the MTA, explaining that, as a foreign visitor, you see the SAS as a plus for New York and that it would improve your ability to ride the subway etc. etc.
They do need to hear from you. Don't limit your advocacy to Subtalk.
"as a foreign visitor"
????
Again, you are forgetting huge hospitals lining First Avenue.
Arti
(Again, you are forgetting huge hospitals lining First Avenue.)
Most of the people who work there don't live on the Upper East Side.
However, there definitely would be traffic, as people change from the V/E, the 7, the L, the F, and the B/D.
There's a huge stream of people each morning who get out of the L at 1st and 14th and wait for the 1st Ave bus. The question is how much those people add up to.
«However, there definitely would be traffic, as people change from the V/E, the 7, the L, the F, and the B/D.»
You're forgetting Bronx, xfers @ 125th Street.
«There's a huge stream of people each morning who get out of the L at 1st and 14th and wait for the 1st Ave bus. The question is how much those people add up to. »
There are also visitors and customers.
Arti
*Magically appears from a puff of smoke*
this is just my personal opinion with no statistics to back this up but speaking as a regular rider of the LEX the Dyre ave #5 to be specific there is very little chance that I would be willing to give up my seat on an express to take some pokey local...
On the other hand I might consider it if my trip required that I transfer to the local anyway...say I needed to get to 96th street or something...so I guess you do have a point
*snaps fingers and disappears in a cloud of smoke*
I'm silly...lol
The SAS is not a pokey local. Given the delays on of the Lex today you might be better off transferring at 125 Street - you'd get a seat and you'd get there faster than if you stayed on the Lex.
I was just speaking for myself and speculating on what I might or might not do given the options...who knows. However, speaking for myself only, I would probably stay where I had a seat and where we don't have to stop at every stop.
"I would probably stay where I had a seat and where we don't have to stop at every stop. "
There is very little difference between the SAS and the Lexington Av express line.
"There is very little difference between the SAS and the Lexington Av express line."
??? Explain ???
It does depend on where, ultimately, you are going. I should not say that my claim applies to all situations. It does not.
If you are coming up from Park Avenue or going to Park Av, stay on the Lex. That's your best choice.
But if you're going elsewhere, SAS is your best choice.
For its initial operating line, SAS will have stations about half a mile apart from each other. There will be six stations between the 125 Street stop and 63rd Street, where you will be offered a transfer to the F train (or stay on the SAS as it becomes the Broadway express service).
If you start your trip at 125 St, the Lex Express, assuming it leaves on time, is faster, because there are no stops between 125th and 86th St. But if you're coming from the Bronx, the % of your total ride is quite insignificant - and the initial "Stubway" isn't going in the same direction after 72 St anyway. If both are operating optimally, the SAS will be slower by about 2 minutes covering that distance, but if you have to wait, it may be a bit longer. But you're guaranteed a seat on your inbound run, because 125 is a terminal. And the SAS stations will be new and designed for more efficient boarding, so average dwell time will be less. The transfers at 63rd Street and 125 St will be very efficient. In fact, you can see the transfer at 63rd Street right now - it's a same platform transfer, and the station and tracks are already built. A false wall separates it from the F train and I'm told you can peek at the other side. That wall will be removed.
Now, on the way back, assuming that you are coming from the Broadway line, you are probably better off staying on the SAS and transferring at 125 St.
SAS stations will all be ADA-compliant and more easily negotiated than Lex stations. (125 on the Lex is now ADA compliant, but older retrogfitted stations are still not quite as good as ones designed from the start that way).
"If you start your trip at 125 St, the Lex Express, assuming it leaves on time, is faster, because there are no stops between 125th and 86th St. But if you're coming from the Bronx, the % of your total ride is quite insignificant."
I know I'm throughly upset by the time I get to 125th, especially since the Thru Express is out for now, that I love it when I get to 125th so I can at least feel like I'm going somewhere...I just sit there and imagine all the people I'm passing by and how frustrated I would be if for some reason my #5 had to go local to 42nd...I do see your points however I just think with most New Yorkers it's just a mental thing. We like to think we are getting a better deal than someone else. That's why I think alot of people would rather stay on the express...but If I was a local rider it would look like a an added bonus I would have a choice.
You do whatever you feel comfortable with.
too bad I'm not an express rider...
N Broadway Local
*frowning*
The SAS is not a pokey local. Given the delays on of the Lex today you might be better off transferring at 125 Street - you'd get a seat and you'd get there faster than if you stayed on the Lex.
Of course, if the Second Avenue line were running, the Lex would have fewer delays.
True...
LOL
... and you obviously love to walk 4 avenue blocks instead of 1.
Arti
I need the exercise...and it's better than my walk to the station where I get on. LOL
Now that makes a lot of sense. Your heart is thanking you every day. Keeps your cholesterol down and your fitness up.
"Most of the people who work there don't live on the Upper East Side. "
They don't? How do you know that?
(They don't? How do you know that?)
Vast personal surveys that show that doctors either live near their hospital or in the suburbs, not in a different urban location.
And the rest of the staff can't afford the upper east side.
"Vast personal surveys that show that doctors either live near their hospital or in the suburbs, not in a different urban location. "
1) Are these surveys pertaining to the hospitals in question, and who conducted them?
2) Doctors aren't the only ones who can afford to live on the UES. Senior nurses can too, and nurses with the right kind of MRS degree - or a male nurse with the converse (such as to a doctor or administrator). And then you have scientists, psychologists, administrators, etc. etc.
"And the rest of the staff can't afford the upper east side. "
You've jumped to a conclusion too early.
And let's not forget patients and visitors...
What about the patient families and friends.. which I'm sure make up a large bulk of the hospital population?
N Bwy
Vast personal surveys that show that doctors either live near their hospital or in the suburbs, not in a different urban location.
I could see that being the case in areas, where there aren't many desirable neighborhoods in the cities themselves, but that's not the case in New York.
Unless you consider New York itself to be undesirable, in which case Syracuse is a better choice...
:0)
"Again, you are forgetting huge hospitals lining First Avenue."
The corridor below 42nd definitely would support a new subway line. But do the densities demand one? In my opinion, no. Since the SAS has lousy transfers (block long walks) to the 7,E,V,N,R and W, it is likely that better crosstown bus service would be more beneficial to this area.
Having said that, I am open to what the models say ridership will be. My main point throughout is that the MTA better make public ALL the data on the SAS, segement by segment, so that we can judge for ourselves if the whole thing should be built, or just parts of it. At $16.8 billion, the public is entitled to ask these kind of detailed questions.
"The corridor below 42nd definitely would support a new subway line. But do the densities demand one? In my opinion, no. "
In 99% of NYC residents' opinions, yes.
"Having said that, I am open to what the models say ridership will be. My main point throughout is that the MTA better make public ALL the data on the SAS, segement by segment, so that we can judge for ourselves if the whole thing should be built, or just parts of it. At $16.8 billion, the public is entitled to ask these kind of detailed questions. "
You take too much credence in figures taken out of their context (and you do it out of convenience).
However, I agree that financial disclosure is important.
The most relevant financial information is what amount and % of each of the next three Capital Plans does SAS occupy. It requires $1.05 billion out of the 2000-2004 Capital Plan, or a little more than 5%. But this is not the bulk of the effort. What will that look like in the next Capital Plan and the one after that?
"In 99% of NYC residents' opinions, yes."
Unsupported opinion.
"You take too much credence in figures taken out of their context (and you do it out of convenience)."
The SAS isn't estimated to cost $16.8 billion? What is the true number, if it wouldn't be incovenient?
In 99% of NYC residents' opinions, yes."
Unsupported opinion.
Wrong. Why don't you check every opinion poll (large and small), trhe campaigns undertaken vy Manhattan (and other politicians) under pressure from their electorate, and then find one example of signifdicant political opposition to the SAS within the city.
You won't find it. Even the suburbs support it (though upstate may not - but they hate NYC anyway).
"then find one example of signifdicant political opposition to the SAS within the city."
1) Not after you downzone their neighborhoods.
2) Not after they find out the price: their fares go up to pay for it, or service levels go down, or other projects get cancelled.
I originally supported the full SAS. But the feds said they're out because it's not cost-effective. That doubles the cost of a full SAS.
Spew all the "kidding" you want at the people that disagree with you, but we ought to be circling the wagons around the stubway. We'll be lucky to get it. If it's all or nothing, we'll get the latter.
1)Not after you downzone their neighborhoods...
False statement. Downzoning is a perjorative, not an effect; even if zoning changes occur, they will not affect the project much. Look at Bethesda,Maryland, Silver Spring, Rockville MD, Decatur Ga, Roosevelt Island and the lower 60's here. Yes, they whined about construction (this is New York. You're on your honor to whine).
2) Not after they find out the price: their fares go up to pay for it, or service levels go down, or other projects get cancelled
Fares have already gone up, and after a 7-8 year plateau, are headed up again. People whine, but their subway has been rebuilt, and that's the bottom line. 7 million daily riders on NYC transit (and climbing) can't all be wrong.
"But the feds said they're out because it's not cost-effective. "
The "feds" said nothing of the kind. A group of FTA people said so, but what the "feds" say is ultimately expressed in only one way: does the money come or not?
"Spew all the "kidding" you want at the people that disagree with you, but we ought to be circling the wagons around the stubway."
We are circling the wagons around the Stubway. It's the first segment to be built, so we have to focus on getting it done.
But if we do not also support the entire line, the political repercussions will be serious. You haven't got a clue about that, obviously, despite my repeated attempts to explain it to you. Get on a plane, fly over here, and research it yourself.
I've lost count of the number of hearings I've been to, letters I've written (and gotten answers to), hours spent on the Manhattan SAS task force etc. etc. It was worth it, though...
And I wasn't kidding with anybody. The remark you just made was uncalled for, and untrue.
I'm sorry you took offense, despite my explaining to you that it was not meant that way. If you wish to be personally insulted, so be it.
"But if we do not also support the entire line, the political repercussions will be serious. You haven't got a clue about that, obviously, despite my repeated attempts to explain it to you."
There've been lectures, but non as I recall on this topic. If you're referring to Shelly Silver, well explain to him how downzoning is just a "perjoritive" term without effect that works just fine in Maryland. Even he isn't powerful enough to come up with the extra $10 billion to get this to reach his district.
"The "feds" said nothing of the kind. A group of FTA people said so, but what the "feds" say is ultimately expressed in only one way: does the money come or not?"
This is the Administration's position. Tell me one major project that Congress funded over FTA opposition.
"I'm sorry you took offense"
Non taken. But the uncivil tone gets old.
"Non taken. But the uncivil tone gets old."
I have to assume responsibility for my posting - but cannot assume responsibility for how you choose to interpret my posts.
It is a two way street. Fair enough?
"I have to assume responsibility for my posting - but cannot assume responsibility for how you choose to interpret my posts."
Your posts are frequently uncivil to my ear. I don't take it personally, as you seem to be coarse with most everyone. If others agree with you that you that is just your way of "kidding," I'll retract the accusation.
"Your posts are frequently uncivil to my ear. I don't take it personally, as you seem to be coarse with most everyone"
If you choose to hurl insults, that is your prerogative. Don't expect me to address them, however.
"If you choose to hurl insults, that is your prerogative. Don't expect me to address them, however."
Ironic.
("The corridor below 42nd definitely would support a new subway line. But do the densities demand one? In my opinion, no. " In 99% of NYC residents' opinions, yes.)
If this corridor doesn't support heavy rail based on projected riderhship, what corridor does? Densities from 59th Street to 14th Street are higher than just about anywhere else in the United States except for other parts of Manhattan. Densities from 14th Street south are also very high by American standards -- and remember that this was once the most densely populated place in the WORLD.
As for the "development potential" arguement than fine -- put a permanent development moratorium in effect wherever the SAS isn't built. That last thing we want is more people in Manhattan paying federal and state taxes and getting nothing in return, not even a decent ride to work.
The return on the lower portion of the SAS is low compared only with the upper portion of the SAS. The upper portion is absolutely essential if ESA is built, the rest merely desirable. But if the SAS isn't built, then I don't want to pay taxes for any transit improvement anywhere else in the country ever again, because none will show a greater benefit honestly. Neither will any road improvement.
"If this corridor doesn't support heavy rail based on projected riderhship, what corridor does?"
I should have clearly stated in a cost-effective sense. At $2 billion a mile, and without the feds picking up half, hardly any corridors pencil out...
"The upper portion is absolutely essential if ESA is built"
...This is one of them. 125th-63rd should be done even if MTA has to do it solo. They also need to commit immediately to Metro North to Penn Station. The ESA EIS has the ridiculous claim that even though LIRR ridership to Penn will drop in half, the number of LIRR trains will stay about the same. Half length or half full trains to Penn make no sense.
The feds haven't said they won't pick up half the cost.
Take off your political blinders, and you'll understand.
"The feds haven't said they won't pick up half the cost."
They did in this year's 3J, as you know from the other thread. Take off your rose colored glasses, and you'll understand.
"They did in this year's 3J, as you know from the other thread. Take off your rose colored glasses, and you'll understand."
The only thing any of us needs to understand right now is the groundbreaking next year. The 3J is cute, but it's, in the long run, written in pencil, as are most things in govt.
"The only thing any of us needs to understand right now is the groundbreaking next year."
Second Ave. has had several groundbreakings over the decades.
"Second Ave. has had several groundbreakings over the decades. "
None under the aegis of a Capital Plan. You really do need to come here in person. It would give you a much richer perspective. You're missing a lot of stuff.
"You really do need to come here in person."
Kansas City?
Well, if you come to Kansas City, I shall be obliged to treat you to the largest, most juicy steak you will have ever seen. And a monster baked potato.
Just make sure to stop by NYC on the way here.
(On the other hand, if you like barbequed ribs (a variation of rack of lamb, after all), then we shall see what a "saucy" fellow you tuly are :0) )
Fair enough. I do want to see what they've (you've!) done to Union Station.
I look forward to it!
(The only thing any of us needs to understand right now is the groundbreaking next year. The 3J is cute, but it's, in the long run,
written in pencil, as are most things in govt.)
Ron, with your comments and your tone, you've really put yourself out there on this one. If the groundbreaking is next year and even the upper part is built on schedule (really shouldn't take more than five years), then I'll be happy but surprised. I predict, however, that you should have joined me in criticizing all the debt in the 2000-2004 MTA capital plan. The MTA COULD HAVE done it on its own, if not for that. Now that won't be possible.
"I predict, however, that you should have joined me in criticizing all the debt in the 2000-2004 MTA capital plan. The MTA COULD HAVE done it on its own, if not for that. Now that won't be possible. "
OK. I'll join you in criticizing the debt. But expecting any agency to complete a major network expansion entirely on its own is asking a lot of it.
The corridor below 42nd definitely would support a new subway line. But do the densities demand one? In my opinion, no. Since the SAS has lousy transfers (block long walks) to the 7,E,V,N,R and W, it is likely that better crosstown bus service would be more beneficial to this area.
Or, better yet, crosstown light rail, though there's a snowball's chance that it'll get built.
"Or, better yet, crosstown light rail, though there's a snowball's chance that it'll get built."
I'm for it. Let's see how these guys do:
http://www.vision42.org/
(though banning all traffic is a non-starter)
Impractical here. And there is already crosstown bus and subway service on 42 St.
Why not try that concept on streets which do not have any cross-town services? Doing it on 42nd achieves very little.
"Doing it on 42nd achieves very little."
The 7 only roughly serves 3rd to 7th Aves. It misses the important edges, such as UN and Javits. I'm not saying they'll succeed, and their cost estimates are way low, but as an alternative to the plan to extend the 7 westward, they'll have a chance to make their case.
So you're suggesting it as an alternative to extensing the 7? That definitely won't fly.
"So you're suggesting it as an alternative to extensing the 7? That definitely won't fly."
They're suggesting it as an alternative to the 7 extension. It's a tough case to make, but it'll be interesting to hear them make it in the coming months. They have some good points.
Agreed. It's worth discussing.
They're suggesting it as an alternative to the 7 extension.
No they are not. This is what they actually say:
These two proposals serve very different functions and are complementary. The light rail system serves the 42nd Street corridor. Its easy boarding and frequent access points make it an ideal collector/distributor, while its placement in a pedestrian street enhances access to all the subways, including the #7 line. It extends the reach of the subways, and also serves the massive new residential developments that are planned on the East and Hudson Rivers, as well as important tourist generators on the waterfronts, such as the UN, the Circle Line & Port Imperial Piers, and the Javits Center. The subway extension links two new stations, on at Penn Station and one at 11th Avenue, with three existing stations, each deep below 42nd Street, where transfers are available to north-south subways.
The UN is not on 42nd Street.
Yes it is. I was thinking of the 44th Street side...
"No they are not."
I'm referring to what they are saying in community meetings. (The 7 is more likely to follow the Empire Cut, by the way, and miss Penn Station.)
Absolutely not. A network of dedicated, enforced bus lanes has nearly all of the advantages of light rail (as it would be implemented in Manhattan) but don't have three major disadvantages: (a) the inability of any old bus route to hop onto the light rail tracks, (b) the need to purchase, store, and maintain a dedicated fleet, and (c) the need to purchase, store, and maintain buses for the route anyway, in case service has to be diverted for a water main break or a parade.
Light rail often makes sense if a section of the line is on private ROW. It doesn't make sense if it just runs on streets.
A network of dedicated, enforced bus lanes has nearly all of the advantages of light rail (as it would be implemented in Manhattan) but don't have three major disadvantages: (a) the inability of any old bus route to hop onto the light rail tracks, (b) the need to purchase, store, and maintain a dedicated fleet, and (c) the need to purchase, store, and maintain buses for the route anyway, in case service has to be diverted for a water main break or a parade.
Light rail often makes sense if a section of the line is on private ROW. It doesn't make sense if it just runs on streets.
Good points. I had been thinking in terms of light rail that would have signal priority at intersections, but I suppose that could be done with bus lanes too (conversely, without signal priority both crosstown light rail and crosstown bus lanes would be almost hopeless). Bus lanes would of course require rigid enforcement measures.
Correct. Ilike your post.
If the bus lanes are physically divided from the rest of the street, enforcement can be automatic, with the help of E-ZPass readers and license plate cameras. Post prominent signs and just charge a "toll" of, say, $100 per block to unauthorized vehicles. Now, how to persuade the DOT?
(I had been thinking in terms of light rail that would have signal priority at intersections, but I suppose that could be done with bus lanes too.)
You can't give signal priority to the cross town streets, because that would cause absolute gridlock on the Avenues. Hence light rail would be stuck in traffic just like the buses, even with bus lanes. Manhattan is too congested. It just won't work.
You know what would be better? An underground walkway across 48th and 49th, so people could take the four subways on the West Side than walk over the East Side without waiting at lights at each avenue. THAT would be faster than light rail!
Note that in mid-sized European cities, a common plan is to have light rail that runs on the street in less congested neighborhoods -- but goes into a subway in the CBD. Manhattan IS the CBD.
"Note that in mid-sized European cities, a common plan is to have light rail that runs on the street in less congested neighborhoods -- but goes into a subway in the CBD. Manhattan IS the CBD."
Boston and Philly use that model.
"Note that in mid-sized European cities, a common plan is to have light rail that runs on the street in less congested neighborhoods -- but goes into a subway in the CBD. Manhattan IS the CBD.
Boston and Philly use that model."
True. Ironically, Manchester (UK) does precisely the reverse (private ROW in the suburbs, on-street in the centre) - because they gave up hope that anyone would ever fund the necessary tunnel through the city centre (the Pic-Vic tunnel linking Piccadilly and Victoria railway stations). The suburban sections are converted suburban rail lines, which now do better business than before, because light rail frequencies are higher than the heavy rail ones were - and because the trams go right to the main shopping areas instead of terminating at the main line stations.
Manchester (UK) does precisely the reverse (private ROW in the suburbs, on-street in the centre) - because they gave up hope that anyone would ever fund the necessary tunnel through the city centre (the Pic-Vic tunnel linking Piccadilly and Victoria railway stations)
That just shows how useless this country is at funding anything even slightly useful.
I wonder if any of these will ever happen:
- Princes' Risborough - Oxford reinstatement
- Aylesbury - Leicester Central reinstatement
- extra 2 tracks through Borough Market Junction
- Uckfield - Lewes reinstatement
- Yeovil Junction - Exeter Central redoubling
- any meaningful transit in Birmingham
Fytton's views:
I wonder if any of these will ever happen:
- Princes' Risborough - Oxford reinstatement: NO
- Aylesbury - Leicester Central reinstatement: NO
- extra 2 tracks through Borough Market Junction: YES - it is a key part of the Thameslink 2000 proposals, which probably will happen.
- Uckfield - Lewes reinstatement: NO - the trackbed has been built over with a new road
- Yeovil Junction - Exeter Central redoubling: POSSIBLY, if traffic ever justifies it
- any meaningful transit in Birmingham: Depends on your definition of meaningful - you don't like the Midlands Metro and I do!
extra 2 tracks through Borough Market Junction: YES - it is a key part of the Thameslink 2000 proposals, which probably will happen.
Pity Thameslink 2000 isn't the best use of that track capacity... really the only places the Holborn tracks should go to are Beckenham Junction via Crystal Palace, the Catford Loop to the slow lines at Shortlands etc, the St Helier loop, West Croydon via Streatham, maybe via Nunhead and Beckenham Junction to Hayes.
A slight rejig of the tracks East of London Bridge would enable neat high-frequency pairings without all the trains crossing over each-other:
- Cannon St - London Bridge (1 Down, 2 Up) - Greenwich
- Charing X (Fast & Slow) - London Bridge (3&5 Down, 4&6 Up) - New X (Fast & Slow)
- London Bridge (terminal - 8-14) - New X Gate (Fast & Slow)
- London Bridge (terminal - 15-18) - South Bermondsey
any meaningful transit in Birmingham: Depends on your definition of meaningful - you don't like the Midlands Metro and I do!
Pity it's got these flaws:
- it's taking up space which could be used to relieve congestion on the Stour Valley Line.
- it serves just about nowhere. The only stops of any significance are B'ham Snow Hill, Jewellery Quarter, Handsworth Booth St, The Hawthorns, West Bromwich Central, Blacklake (what was wrong with the name Swan Village?), Wednesbury Great Western Street (what was wrong with Wednesbury Central?), Bradley Lane, Bilston Central, Priestfield, Wolverhampton (St George's). It would do better to be switched to Wolverhampton (Low Level) and have 3 stopping trains an hour and lots of fast trains stopping at Snow Hill, West Brom, (maybe Wednesbury or Bilston) and Wolverhampton only.
- there are other parts of the City which need it much more: mainly the South - the most urgently needed route is from the City to Moseley and King's Heath (like buses 35, 50, 177 and 178), which again could be better served by heavy rail (there is a nice convenient double track line which hasn't seen a local train since they were temporarily discontinued for World War 2).
- it drops you a long way from the Railway and Bus Stations in Wolverhampton.
Portland and Denver here in the States do that to. But then again they don't have the horrible gridlock that we get in New York.
Yet.
You know what would be better? An underground walkway across 48th and 49th, so people could take the four subways on the West Side then walk over the East Side without waiting at lights at each avenue. THAT would be faster than light rail!
That's an idea. It would have airport-style moving sidewalks, I presume.
Yes, the hospitals lining 1stAv. I know all about it. I usta work at NYU Med Center, and getting there from the subway is pain.
More than once, I've suggested that, if the SAS is to go south beyond 42nd, I do it as an el via 1Av (turn east under 42nd, south onto 1st, and then ramp up, to at least at far as 14th St.
At the very least, they should have a 2-way bus-only transitway on the east side of 1st Av from 14th to 49th (with extension up Sutton Place/York to the Vanderbilt/Cornell campuses), with decent x-town service to all the subway lines.
Densities on the east side is an variable thing which also relates to the topography of the shorline of the East River, which is nowhere near as straight as the Hudson River shore.
If you look at a map, one of the worst places for "density" along the upper Second Ave. line is at 96th Street, because the shoreline itself comes within 1 1/2 blocks of Second Ave. (in contrast, no west side subway station is within two blocks of the Hudson until you get to Franklin St., on south or 79th on the north of the 1/9 line, unless you count Christopher Street on the PATH). The same holds true for a Second Ave. stop at 34th St. or even 42nd, though the buisness activity in that area would make up for the lack of residential homes east of Second Ave.
But in other areas both above and below 63rd St., the river moves towards the east and there are a lot of buildings, mostly residential, in those areas from 90th to 72nd St., there are about three whole avenue blocks east of Second, and the same holds true from 23rd St. all the way down to Grand, where in some places, Second Ave. or Chrystie St. would be almost a mile from the East River (it's not three blocks at 23rd, but building the Waterside complex over the East River itself makes up for that). Residents living near 14th, Houston or Delancy Streets have the L or the F train options, but if you're on the east side and you're going some place uptown on the east side, neither would be perferable to a straight ride up Second Ave.
And of course, a full-length route -- or at the very least one that got down to a tranfer to the B/D or a Nassau St. connection at Grand or Delancey -- would make it easier for Brooklyn residents to have direct access to the east side without having to brave the crowds on the IRT 4/5 trains. Remember, the Stubway solves only half the Lex crowding problem -- it's not like the uptown IRT expresses during AM rush have interiors covered with cobwebs and echoing with the sound of crickets. They're jammed, too and a full-length SAS would help relieve some of the pressure there as well.
Very well thought out on all points.
"They're jammed, too and a full-length SAS would help relieve some of the pressure there as well."
Though the 4/5 isn't as crowded from the south as from the north, it is true the Brooklyn transfers to the SAS actually work and would be well-used (unlike Queen's).
The question isn't whether SAS would be used. A full-length SAS would be one of the best-used lines in the system. The question is whether it's cost-effective. At $16.8 billion, it isn't. And the feds just told us so. Time to focus on "phase 1" and be happy if we get it.
"And the feds just told us so."
No, they didn't. Come over and spend some time in NY. seriously. See for yourself if your opinion still holds.
"Time to focus on "phase 1" and be happy if we get it. "
Great! What will you be doing?
"No, they didn't."
Time will settle this argument soon enough.
OK. You still haven't told me what you planm to do in the way of advocacy.
We need you Simon!
Your regular calls for direct involvement are well-taken. It does have an impact. I've done some things. I'll do some more.
Bully for you!
I sincerely hope that the Central Line reconstruction goes well, early, under budget and the trains start running again.
"I sincerely hope that the Central Line reconstruction goes well, early, under budget and the trains start running again."
Ron, I think you are under a misapprehension. "Simon" isn't Simon Billis, who like me is English. Simon Billis's handle is Simon Billis.
And as I pointed out a couple of days ago, the Central Line doesn't neded reconstucting. It's the trains that need modifying, not the line. As far as I am aware the repairs to the tunnels, platforms and track damaged in the derailment have been made. There isn't really a schedule or a budget for this work - it is emergency work resulting from an accident, not a planned renovation.
A previous post had said that Simon lives in London, referring to this Simon. Therefore I surmised that both Simons live in London.
Of course I could be wrong, because on the Internet, you can't be sure of anything 100%...
(in contrast, no west side subway station is within two blocks of the Hudson until you get to Franklin St., on south or 79th on the north of the 1/9 line, unless you count Christopher Street on the PATH).
There's a sizeable park between Riverside Drive and the Hudson.
Riverside Drive is about the equivalent of 11 1/2 Ave., while Broadway runs for about 1 1/2 miles between 10th and 11th Aves. before moving over to take the place of West End (11th) Ave. at 108th St. For the next three miles the 1/9 is really quite close to the river, though the hills and valleys of upper Manhattan offset that closeness quite a bit.
So the 79th through 103rd St. stations have about one full avenue block of seperation between their exits and the furthest west apartment buildings. The same holds true south of Canal -- you've got Washington and Greenwich streets before you get to West Street, but they're not full avenue widths apart from Varick (though once you get to Chambers and Battery Park City's additions begin, you're actually back to having the nearest subway line quite a distance from the Hudson shoreline.
Riverside drifts back and forth. It's fairly close to West End in places but it's quite far in others -- over a full avenue-to-avenue block. And there's still a park between Riverside and the riverside.
I see your point..
N Bwy
There is an intesting article in the times concerning Radio frequency identification (EX-PASS technology) as it applies to consumer goods.
Stores are begining to experiment with the technolgy to track inventory on shelves and eventually used for checkout lines.
The article states that it cost aproximatly $0.30 per item for the radio transmitter. This is most likley a dumb transmitter that does not record info on the chip. Stores hope to get the costs down to about a penny a chip. This would make it affrtable for the MTA to replace the current magnetic Metrocard
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/25/technology/25THEF.html
Much of the original research was done here at MIT in our Auto-ID Center.
I believe that was mentioned in the article. Interesting stuff
Somehow, I don't see Smartcards coming to New York any time soon, considering how recently the MetroCard was introduced in New York. Currently, the only US systems that I know of that have a smart card available to the public are Washington (since May 1999) and Chicago (introduced in late 99 or early 2000). London may have one or they are testing one. The systems are very nice but a DC SmarTrip costs about 10 to 15 dollars to make and costs the rider only 5, so Metro loses money on those sales.
My point is that the cost of the technology is coming down quickly. If you factor in the cost to maintain metrocard swipes on HEETS and turnsyles the economics start to make sense.
The article stated that the cost per transmitter is down to $0.30 each. The system could be overlayed over the current system using the smart cards at first for subscription metrocards, senior cards and monthly cards where users hold onto the cards longer. The retail industry wants to get the costs down to a penny a tag.
With such a large need in the retail industry and tons of $$$ going into thr research and developement, count on seeing the cheaper transmitters sooner or latter.
The transmitters could also be used to track buses and trains and reduce the need many of the layers of supervisors, dispatchers and the like which drive up the cost of operting buses and trains
I like the sound of that! Assuming smart-card technology is available within the next decade or so, can the MTA convert the current turnstyles/HEET's only by installing the technology on it or what?
All that would need to be done is to add the recievers to each turnsyle. It is similar to adding another devise to your computer at home. Both smart cards and Metrocard could be used at the same time at a turstyle
The smart card technology is available today. It is just a matter of cost. Even if it is used only for monthly and or subscription(pay per ride with auto refill like ez-pass) It would cut down metrocard swipes by 50% or more reducing the need for swipe cleaning and also MVM refiliing and maintance.
Does the DC smart card need a swipe to work, or can you just walk past the turnstile?
My apartment in Hartford had a smartcard for laundery. No fumbling for quarters, but the cards would occasionally get corrupted and if you couldn't get to the recharger machine to feed more money intoyour card, you were SOL.
We had cards like those in college for the laundy machine. This was nearly 10 years ago.
Pay phones in mexico and canada use a smart card which you dipped that resembles the american express blue card (all credit cards in europe use this type of card) I went swimming with the card and it still worked
If the DC smart card works anything like the Hong Kong smart card, you don't swipe or insert it into anything but you do still have to hold the card up against (or very close to) a panel to be read. Many college student and employee IDs work this way too. I've heard this kind of thing referred to as a proximity card to distinguish it from the chip-embedded smart cards like the Blue credit card or the NYC Parking Card, where you still have to physically insert the card into some kind of reader.
This is the way the Chicago cards work - you hold them near or against the reader - you can usually keep them in your wallet even. The security in many office buildings here in Chicago use a similar system for key-card access (including my building, and also the Sears Tower).
What happens in Chicago if there are two cards in a wallet?
Then you take out the one you're using and DON'T wave the whole wallet by the reader.
I'm asking what would happen if I didn't do that.
The issue might arise in any case. If the reader is slightly oversensitive and my wallet is in my right pocket, I'm worried it might read even a card I'm not holding out.
There's no way to accidentally swipe or dip a MetroCard, and I see that as a design feature.
Judging from my experience with proxy-card(smartcard) at work.
The card literally has to be brought up and almost touch the reader to beread. There is a slight pause before another card can be read. If another card is put up to the reader to quickly it is not read. The reader makes a beep sound and has a led light that turns green when accepted and red when not ready, yellow when waiting for the next card.
My company used the smart cards in lue of timesheets. So there was always a mad rush at 9 am for those arriving just in time to start work.
Even if two cards are in a wallet, it is unlikely that both would be read at one time. Even less likely that a card could be read from a distance. The readers used for these applications are just not that powerful.
The DC card works exactly the way emathias described it. I would not be surprised if alot of the software/chips/etc are the same in both cities.
The CHicago cards works great on the CTA. I never have to take it out of my wallet and I can literally make a train at the last second instead of having to insert the transit card and wait for it to be returned. The time savings is only a couple seconds, but it is great when the next train isn't for 15 minutes or longer.
It has two problems. Number one, it costs $5.00 per card. Rail-fans or people with alot of money don't mind paying the one-time fee. However, people who are making low wages and don't have a lot of money consider saving a few seconds and convience not worth their $5.00. Don't get me wrong, everytime the CTA sells Chicago cards, which is rare, they go like hot-cakes. But the majority of riders still use Transit-Cards and the agency will never be able to get rid of transit-cards unless they give away smart-cards for free just like transit-cards.
The other thing that sucks is that they don't really work well with transfers between rail & bus. I had the first Smart-Card and now I have a replacement Chicago Card and they both suck for more then one person transfering from the L to a Bus. Everytime I ride with me and one or more people using my Chicago Card (It's suppost to be up to 7) it works perfect when we enter the L system. However, it only deducts one transfer when we get on the bus. For the second person it displays an error message. It's not that big of a deal because after about 5 trys the bus operator usually tells us to sit down. But it still is a pain. The moral of the story is that now I only use my Chicago card for myself and if anyone else is riding with me that doesn't have one they have to get their own transit-card.
Atleast we insert our transit-cards here VS swiping the Metro-Card. I had to get used to that. I got hit in the stomach a few times before I realized I should see if GO! was displayed or not. But that's just me being stupid.
"Everytime I ride with me and one or more people using my Chicago Card (It's suppost to be up to 7) it works perfect when we enter the L system. However, it only deducts one transfer when we get on the bus. For the second person it displays an error message. It's not that big of a deal because after about 5 trys the bus operator usually tells us to sit down"
In NYC when you use a metrocard for more then one person on the train and then transfer to a bus. You dip the card once, and all the display says x number transfers ok.
The smartcards cost will have to come down to completly replace the current metrocard. But they have a great use here in NYC. The current magnetic metrocard is unreliable as it ages. In order for the MTA to begin subscription metrocard service to reduce the traffic at MVM's and completly illiminate Tooken booths it will need to be deployed. There are enough New Yorkers that would use them to make it worth wild for the mta to deploy
In order to offset the $25 deposit required for EZ-PASS in NY, the MTA waves the deposit if one links the EZ-PASS for automatic refills. The same can be done for the smart-cards. The MTA would be saving far more then the initial $10 cost of the card in maintainance of MVM's and bus and subway metrocard swipes. Many buses which have the mechanical dip type readers are brooken in service each day costing the MTA money. People using smartcards would reduce this occurance.
The rider would not own the card and would need to return the card inorder to for thier credit card not be charged for the card. In addition seniors and the disabled would most likly have the fee waved. Unlike the CTA the MTA is sadled with over $200 illion dollars in costs from it's legacy tooken booths that would offset the price of the cards
Last week, someone here reported seeing 8565 in Ulmer Park Depot. I was at Jackie Gleason Depot today (2/25/03) and saw 8565 there. 8565 has been assigned to Gleason since it was new and is apparently still assigned there.
David
Ummm Hey Buddy oh pal, this is SubTalk not BusTalk.
Dang...I SWEAR I had it on the BusTalk screen...oh well.
I'll post it over there!
David
No harm done. Just don't drive the RTS in question onto the Sea Beach line.
Fred might get upset with you.
:0)
David: Sorry I took so long getting back to you. The IRT Broadway Line north of 96 Street was to have been constructed as a two track line with eight tracks between 137 Street and 145 Street. During the construction stages this was known as the West Side Branch. After construction had begun it was decided to add a third track to the line for express service. The third track was added to the east side of the two existing trackways making the causing the stations at 103, 110 and 116 Streets to be off-center. It involved a great deal of reconstruction as these stations had been designed with an arch roof. It was somewhat easier between 137 Street and 145 Street because the contractor simply converted the yard track closest to the east side of the two main tracks into a through track. This is why the yard today has two tracks on the east side and three tracks on the west side.
The present middle track was to have been the northbound track and this is why north of 145 Street it is the northbound local that merges back into the center track. The use of the center track for express service has been very limited in part because there was no provision for express platforms. It has been used for express service twice. Once in the very early days around 1910 for a short while and again in the fifties for a spell. In both cases the express only used the center track between 137 Street and 96 Street. Someone on this board says that he remembers riding the northbound express all the way through 145 Street but I cannot verify that.
The elevated Manhattan Viaduct had not been built yet so it was unaffected by the reconstruction. If you ride the line though you will notice the track jog slightly to the west just before the portals.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thank you! I will look closely the next time I'm in those stations.
I think I mentioned in my earlier post the brief arch tunnel just north of 116th. Since it's a single arch covering all three tracks, I assume it wasn't built until the design was modified.
For anyone looking for a ride on the middle track, this weekend, NB 1 trains will be running express from 96th to 137th, stopping there, and resuming the express run to 157th. I'm wondering how this will impact 3 operations, since the 3 has been turning on the middle track north of 137th on weekends due to its own GO. I don't see any way it can turn south of Dyckman(!) without interfering with the 1. If it does relay at Dyckman, there will be some interesting photo ops.
While we're on the topic of three-track lines, I have one more question. There is a third trackway on the 2/3, east of the existing tracks, running from the point at which the 2/3 clears the 1 until the point at which the 2/3 curves to the right. What is or was its planned (or actual) purpose? Were there ever plans to run the express tracks up Broadway and the local tracks to Lenox? Is this just an artifact of the widening overhead, sort of like the extra-wide platform at 145th on the Concourse line? Or is something else up? Was there ever an actual track there? This question has been bugging me for a while.
You can't send the 3s up on the 1 when there's already work in progress. It would be too much of a hassle. I believe the plans call for single track service at 137th St. This will allow customers to change to a downtown train on the same platform without going all the way to 168th St to backtrack. This has been done in previous times.
I'd look for 3s to turn on the n/b express track past the double crossover north of 96th St. They'll need switchmen to get these back into 96 as quick as possible.
-Stef
Wow -- 1's single-tracking through 137th? I was wondering why the advisory didn't mention the necessity to pick up a transfer at 137th, as it usually does when there's no free crossover. What kind of headways are we looking at? The 2 or 3 had better run local to fill in.
It might not be necessary for the 2/3 to fill in for the local, but headways could be increased on the 1 slightly.
-Stef
Headways are already increased from 5 to 6 for the 3 GO, but I don't think 6 is enough to single-track -- the 2 is bumped up to 10 for its single-tracking. (Granted, it's quite a bit longer, but the scheduling is much simpler at the end of the line. It's the waits to get into 137th from either direction that will kill everything.)
Do you know where the actual work is taking place?
If I didn't know better, I'd say in the vicinity of 137th-145th Sts.
-Stef
Makes sense. Trains have to run express all the way from 96th only because otherwise they're stuck on the NB local track at 137th.
6 minute headways should be more than enough for single-tracking through 137 - providing, of course, that trains actually show up on or close to schedule.
That's an ambitious proviso, don't you think? When was the last time you heard the phrase "on or close to schedule" and the number 1 in the same sentence?
The upcoming GO works differently depending on if its Midnight or Daytime.
Day: The 1 will be running via M from 96 to 137th, and the only stop single-track wise will be 137th. so its M from 96 to 137, to 1 for 137th, and right after back to M, and along its merry way. No significant headway change is needed because its only one relatively short section of track being afected.
Midnights on a 20 minute headway no big deal. I forget exactly how the midnight part works though.
Working at 240th tower I've found that the 1 line during non rush hours tends to run pretty close to schedule, never more than 2-3 minutes late (can't say for weekends, haven't been up there wkends). VC can easily adjust their service without making trains too late if the need arises.
Working at 240th tower I've found that the 1 line during non rush hours tends to run pretty close to schedule, never more than 2-3 minutes late (can't say for weekends, haven't been up there wkends).
You've only been a TW/O since 9/15/02 or thereabouts, correct?
That's when the line suddenly got reliable. I don't know why or how, but until then (both before and after 9/11/01) it was notoriously unreliable, with gaps of 10-15 minutes very common both rush and midday, weekday and weekend alike. Since 9/15, with the two exceptions of a 30-minute gap in SB local service at the tail end of one morning rush hour and a skip from 96th to 72nd (and maybe beyond; I wouldn't know since I waited at 96th for a real local) in the early evening, I have not had to much more than the scheduled headway ever and all trains that I've encountered have made all the stops they're supposed to make. The difference is striking; it can't have been an accident. I was worried in September that the loss of the 2 as an intermittent local would hurt local service, but we have better service now than I've ever seen (and I've been riding the line on and off for most of my life).
In any case, thanks for the information. Will the 3 be relaying north of 96th, north of Dyckman, or somewhere else entirely?
Ok, listen, I said in my observation, of recent times during the later non peak hours. I said I have NOT been there weekends. And living in South Queens I had never any need for the 1, so I wasn't a regular rider.
If you had read that the sarcastic remarks had not been necessary. However I don't see too many other people that followed suit with your complaint so are you the only one that notices this on the 1?
Sarcastic remarks? I'm dead serious. Service on the 1/9 was as erratic as could be before 9/15/02, for many years (i.e., the WTC attack can't be blamed). Something substantial changed on 9/15/02 in how the line is treated, and now service is generally very reliable. I don't know what was changed, but whatever it was, I'm quite grateful.
I'm not sure why you took offense, but I apologize if it's anything I said.
"You've only been a TW/O since 9/15/02 or thereabouts, correct?
That's when the line suddenly got reliable."
Ok, well, then this is my understanding. Unfortunately a statement worded this way is sometimes directed offensively ("Oh yeah, so that's why all of a sudden..." and that's the way I took it). Get what I mean? Sorry dude. 100% my fault on this one.
The last time I worked this GO on the midnights, it was up M from 96 to south of 137, cross to 1 Track, wrong rail 137 and 145, then cross to 4 Track north of 145. Of course, that was almost 2 years ago, and things do change depending on where the actual work is being done.
David, your email isn't working. The plovers and the email.coms and the edus are all spitting back your mail. Get a real email address that doesn't do this to you every few weeks. I can get you one for free. We'll talk. Anyhow, I need to know info about tonight. Time, place, etc. I'll try to call you during the day.
---Brian
While we're on the topic of three-track lines, I have one more question. There is a third trackway on the 2/3, east of the existing tracks, running from the point at which the 2/3 clears the 1 until the point at which the 2/3 curves to the right. What is or was its planned (or actual) purpose? Were there ever plans to run the express tracks up Broadway and the local tracks to Lenox? Is this just an artifact of the widening overhead, sort of like the extra-wide platform at 145th on the Concourse line? Or is something else up? Was there ever an actual track there? This question has been bugging me for a while.
David: That trackway was the so-called "Lenox Stub." It was in use from about 1904 to 1910. It was only accesible from the north end and ended in a bumper at the south end. It may have been used for layups or work trains.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. You really know your stuff. The last time I asked about that trackway, nobody even knew what I was referring to.
Why was it removed? It seems like a useful place to store gap trains, especially if connected at the south end, though it's probably too short for today's trains.
Why was it removed? It seems like a useful place to store gap trains, especially if connected at the south end, though it's probably too short for today's trains.
David: I don't know why it was removed but there was another extra track on the Original Subway that didn't last too long either. I'm refering to the center track at Spring Street. I don't know how long the Lenox Stub was but I do not think it could accomodate a ten car train and since it required a reverse move to get access it in created an awkward switching move. Likewise the one at Spring Street in the middle of a busy four track main may have been difficult to access also.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
While on the subject of extra tracks on the original subway, was there also a little track just north of Union Square, between the 18th Street station and 14th, around where the derailment took place? That always drove me crazy, because it looks like there is supposed to be a track between the southbound local and express tracks. Currently, they have some maintenence rooms, etc built there. But what was that? Was it indeed a track, and for what purpose
That was another spur track. The original IRT had a few. They still exist on either side of 72nd. They're only long enough for 5-car trains, so now they're only used as part of the crossover between local and express.
Okay, one last question (I think). Middle track through 135th/Lenox. Purpose? It would be a lot more useful if it connected to either of the mainline tracks at either end.
Okay, one last question (I think). Middle track through 135th/Lenox. Purpose? It would be a lot more useful if it connected to either of the mainline tracks at either end.
David: The original plans for the "East Side Branch" as the Lenox Avenue Line was known during the planning stages was to run to The Bronx north of 135 Street, no 145 Street and no yard. The plans were amended to include a "Lenox Avenue Extension" which provided for the 145 Street Station and the 148 Street Yard. The third track at 135 Street was for layups but it always had that strange configuration in that it could only be accessed by trailing point switches at both ends. When the 145 Street Shuttle and later the Lenox Terminal Shuttle used to run they had to make a double reverse move at 135 Street. This was before the X crossover was installed north of the station.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Okay, one last question (I think). Middle track through 135th/Lenox. Purpose? It would be a lot more useful if it connected to either of the mainline tracks at either end.
Well now its used for turnarounds and stroage, I don't know what the original purpose was.
Thanks again!
The 3 shuttle still runs for about an hour early in the morning on Sunday. Since there's no free crossover between platforms, trains can't simply use the X crossover -- they have to stop at the SB platform so passengers can transfer to the SB 2 and then do the double relay to get to the NB platform so passengers can transfer from the NB 2.
Since there's no free crossover between platforms
What do you do if you're trying to get, say, from 148/Lenox to E180? Where can you change direction?
There's definitely an island platform at 110th.
You walk to 145 st, take the bus to 149/GC use the free transfer on your Metrocard and take the 2/5 north.
I'm sorry half asleep. Now its just used for turning around trains, like washes, and the occaisonal (cold weather) layup.
BTW, it would still require a reverse move for that shuttle, but since there's no more shuttle, there's no more reverse move needed. :)
Even with the X crossover north of the station that middle track is still pretty much impractical. Service has to be held both directions for that reasonably long move to be made into the spur. Add to that you can't establish a lineup in either direction until the timer runs out, and it can hold up service pretty good depending on the time of day (and Lenox sends up some washes during the later part fo the PM rush).
The recent Daily News story which covered the reduction in subway crimew and the effects of NYPD's Operation Impact reinforced the concept that busting petty criminals keeps out the felons too - or at least helps track them down.
For example (from the article)
"Nine days after the vicious attack - which made headlines - transit police arrested Edwin Santiago on charges of illegally selling MetroCard swipes through turnstiles at a Brooklyn station."
While not every one doing this is capable of violence, someone who is engaged in this activity comes with a certain % chance he or she is. You don't know what else he likes to do until he does it.
That is why, when I encountered a similar person selling swipes on MARTA at the Decatur, Georgia, station, in 1998, I immediately had him arrested and removed from the station - and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
I'm a fan of quality of life arrests in general. They conform to an idea tha the public realm belongs to ALL of us as a shared place, as opposed to belonging to no one and available for occupancy by those who seize it by driving others out.
If you feel that shared space is a place for people to trash and get their ya-yas out, we might as well all retreat into private, gated communties and private cars. Not good for public parks, mass transit, and other things I value.
If you feel that shared space is a place for people to trash and get their ya-yas out, we might as well all retreat into private, gated communties and private cars.
Which, of course, is exactly what's happening in many parts of the country.
There are two approaches to the concept of public property. Does public property come primarily with a responsibility (to preserve it for the public, including future generations thereof) or does public proprety come primarily with a right (for any member of the public to use it as he or she sees fit)?
I see you're a proponent of the first view. So am I. I don't think it's a popular view in the U.S. nowadays.
"Operation Impact reinforced the concept that busting petty criminals keeps out the felons too - or at least helps track them down."
The fact is that most felons come out of the pool of petty criminals. Once the MTA impliments it's video survaliance technology, it will be even easier to identify and track down prior offenders. It is likley that the MTA will install technology that can compare video fotage to pictures of wanted people and terrorists
That would be a good thing.
According to the photo below, the tile at the time was blue, and yet the description of the station states that it was green before 1990. Those tiles don't look like they were replaced in 1990 and this photo doesn't look like it was taken recently. Besides, Liberty, Van Siclen and Shepherd are blue.
On a hunch, could this photo have possibly been taken at Broadway-LAFAYETTE instead of Broadway-East New York? Those pillars look out of place at ENY.
Something is wrong here. That exact photo is listed in both the Broadway-East New York page and the Broadway-Lafayette page:
From the Broadway-East New York page:
From the Broadway-Lafayette page:
That MUST be Broadway-Lafayette then.
Yes indeed. And from the other photos, on the East New York page, it seems the original column porcelain signs said "EAST NEW YORK" at Bway-ENY (some of the pillars are tiled there), while these have just "BWAY" on the tiled columns. I remember the light blue tile band at Broadwy-Lafayette also. ENY's was darker.
On the bottom picture, Can anyone make out the survey marker in the lower right hand corner? If anyone can make that out we'll know if it's B'way-E.New York or B'way-Lafayette.
Fixed, thanks.
That's probably right.
Still, this photo from 1974 OBVIOUSLY is of the B'way-ENY station, and it still uses blue tiles.
I would believe it if B'way-ENY had purple tiles, since that is the next color after red (Utica) in the IND cycle. The Fulton line swaps blue and purple.
Sure looks blue in that picture, almost to the point of being touched up. The light was very poor in the station prior to installation of the flourescent light, and the tile looked to be grayish-green in that dimness. When I revise the tile page, I'll have that footnote stricken off.
wayne
I have the same slide. This photo was taken at Broadway-Lafayette on 10/5/69. This was the farewell to the Myrtle "EL" fantrip.
-Mark
The captions at Broadway-East New York read "BWAY" and "EAST NY" respectively, alternating. As duly noted by Mark W and Italian Guy in SI, above, the station is BROADWAY *(Lafayette)*.
And that is one of the few pictures I've seen of the original tile. The post-rehab tile is indeed blue, but the wrong shade (too dark!) and border (black).
wayne
I used that station quite often between 1985 and 1991 as a teenager going to the beach. Unless I am loosing my mind, I always remember that station having a blue tiled band. I don't remember it ever being green.
Hi Folks,
Rockhill Trolley Museum is sponsoring a four hour fantrip over the Media (101) and Sharon Hill (102) trolley lines with a suburban Kawasaki car and line car D-39 on April 6, 2003.
The trip may be the last chance to photograph D-39 in operation as it has now been virtually replaced with new diesel line car #862. D-39 is the oldest vehicle currently in use by SEPTA and was originally constructed in 1908.
The Kawasaki car will be one of the remaining cars in the older paint scheme with the red and blue striping below the windows. This scheme is disappearing as the cars are overhauled at Woodland and then repainted in the new scheme.
The trip is limited to 45 passengers so everyone has a seat.
There will be a number of photo stops and opportunities for run-by's for the pleasure of those shooting video.
Come enjoy the warm (hopefully) spring weather in Delaware County.
The cost of the trip is $35.00 for adults and $27.50 for children. All proceeds will benefit the Blacklog Narrows track extension at Rockhill, which was placed in service this past operating season. For more information, contact Gerhard Salomon at (610)965-9028. Pre-registration is required to guarantee you a seat. A printable fantrip registration form is available at the following address:
http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/trip2003.htm
For more information on the Rockhill Trolley Museum, go to:
http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/
Hope to see you on April 6!
Matthew Mummert, Rockhill Trolley Museum
(Also thanks to Matt Nawn for writing this up.)
What will happen to D-39 after she is retired ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
My understanding is that Rockhill Trolley Museum is negotiating with
SEPTA for the acquisition of D-39.
;-) Sparky
There will also be a similar fan trip on May 4th, sponsored by the East Penn Traction Club as part of their National Trolley Meet... details here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the update! I already signed up for the Meet, now I have to sign up for the SUnday fantrip. Sounds like fun!
--Mark
See you at the meet... but not the fantrip this time, I'm afraid, too much else going on at home to take the extra day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, it's a nice deal if your a dealer. Rather co$tly [$18] for
the $pectator. Also read all the fine print as to cut off dates &
costs for the fan trip with or without registration. Also no
guarantee that D-39 will be available on Sunday 4 May or a seat,
as they will sell tickets up to 60 passengers vs 45 passengers
on RTY trip 6 April. Also RTY has a childrens rate, for the youngsters.
;-) Sparky
Heh, not having a seat is no problem for me. I don't usually sit :)
--Mark
That's you specifically. And this is a Surface Car, it doesn't run
in the HOLE!!! But 90% of the attendees do want a seat.
Otherwise we would have seatless units for foamers only!
;-) Sparky
We should try to have Mr. Pirmann post this in "Upcoming Events." Hope I'll see you there!
Fellow RTY Member, Keystone Pete
^^^"We should try to have Mr. Pirmann post this in "Upcoming Events." Hope I'll see you there!"^^^
It has to be submitted on the "LEAVE FEEDBACK FORM" on nycsubway.org
and it will be listed in "Upcoming Events". I have done it before,
for both BERA & RTY. But Dave will not pick it up from the postings.
Hopefully, I'll be there,the Good Lord Willing & the creek doesn't rise.
Have to be at Seashore on Saturday, the 5th.
;-Sparky
BERA, STM, RTY, TMNY
For something that has a limit of 45 attendees it probably doesn't need to be listed on the events list...
You're probably right. But sometimes, as happened on another fantrip last year, they get an extra car if there's enough interest. They don't mind the extra attention, and funds, either. But there's no guarantee that's possible for this trip...
Pete,
I'll concur with you that on other trips there is a possibility of
more then a single car. And Dave will gladly place it in the
"Current Events" if approached properly. He did it for RTY for the
October Route 23 for this poster.
The April 6 trip is similar to an excursion run by ECTM in 2002 and
is restricted to a single car, either leading or chasing D39.
It's not the same as a Route 23 or Route 15 trip, where the
available trackage is strictly occupied with the Charter.
Any further question, e-mail me privately.
;-) Sparky
The previous fan trip with D-39 in Philly, June 2nd, was covered in the August issue of Railpace (three photos of trip).
So, bring your camera.
Do I hear an interest of 3/4 toners doing this trip with RTY.
Will I have other Branfordites joining wa on that Sunday?
Please advise.
;-) Sparky
Well, three of the 3/4 Tonners who did Philly last year never did get to ride 101 & 102 < g >
Oy, another useless rant from "been there, done that" Time to change
the channel.
;-) Sparky
No, I just thought I folks wanted to SEE what they were going to get for their money they might want to check it out in Railpace.
Oh. Didn't know that. I've only fantripped in W. Philly with the Peter Witt, and on Rt. 23 with PCC's. Haven't done 101 & 102 yet.
They've had trips on Rt. 15?
I recall a possibility of going on Girard Av. during that W. Philly trip a couple of years ago, but we didn't make it.
(Would have emailed, but thought this post might be of interest to other Subtalkers...)
^^^"Haven't done 101 & 102 yet."^^^
Ditto for that, neither have I.
^^^"They've had trips on Rt. 15?"^^^
I've been on two trips on Route 15 in recent years. One was a BERA
trip, which we did all surface lines, no subway & Rt. 15 as far as
26th Street. Then the famed "three generation trip" with the Peter
Witt, a PCC & a K-Car. Did the Subway twice from 40th Street &
return and the third time to Rt. 10. Did all of the 15 and the
Welcome Line on Rt. 23, Center City.
^^^"(Would have emailed, but thought this post might be of interest to other Subtalkers...)"^^^
You do not show a return email address on your posts. Just would
like to have your email address for my personal file. Thanks. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Sorry. My lame attempt at Spam Avoidance.
keystonepete@earthlink.net
Again, I'd email you if I wasn't at work!
Thanks Pete, I'll add it to my address book.
;-) Sparky
Also, Please note, there is a Fan Trip planned for the Day Before in Washington DC---perhaps some railfans can do both.
Mark
What's happening in DC on this fantrip?
--Mark
What's happening in DC on this fantrip?
look here
All the info is here!
^^^"The trip is limited to 45 passengers so everyone has a seat."^^^
I have been informed that there a still a few seats available for this trip. So come on down to Philadelphia on April 6 for a chase on SEPTA's Red Arrow Division to Media and Sharon Hill.
For full details post #452669.
See yaw in Philadelphia,
8-) ~ Sparky
Today i made the 11:05 local babylon train to penn changed at jamaica for the brooklyn train, went to the Q platform, and what do I hear:
"because of signal problems at 7th av, all BB boung Q trains are running at slower speeds, please be patient"
in about a minute or so, a Q local pulls in atlantic, crawls to 7th av, then stops, and sits for about 20 minutes then the C/R tells us our train is being taken out of revenue service and to take the W to coney island for the B68,
i needed to goto cortelyou road so i went back to atlantic and took the 2 to beverly and walked to E 9 street
I just hate the ta after this
Why do you hate the TA after that for?It wasn't there fault.If a signal got busted,a signal got busted.They weren't the cause of the problem or anything so chill out and blame the signal itself not the TA.They aren't responsible for that.
At least you heard announcements. Alot of times people complain they never heard anything.
If they have to run the Q on the Sea Beach line in an emergency, there is nothing wrong with that. These things happen. The worry is that the TA might get some bright idea and the thought sickens me. When the emergency is over get those other damn trains off of my train's tracks. The N line is for my Sea Beach and no others. Stay in your own territory.
Yeah,those damn[pardon]Q trains......
Hey hey man!Don't trash the Q train,I love the Q train just as much as I love the V train.Same can be said for the 3train.
Agreed, and hopefully the Q will keep its fleet of upper R68's that it used to have before the B/Q swap back in 1997 of slants and R68A's when the Manny Bridge reopens to B/D trains.
Hey hey man!Don't trash the Q train,I love the Q train just as much as I love the V train.Same can be said for the 3train.
What's so good about the 3? Chance of getting a railfan window for the 7th Avenue Express?
Before the R142s came about, I wouldn't even set foot on the 3 train.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
The Q is one of my favorites too.. Sorry fred..
N Bwy
Nothing to be sorry about N Broadway. I have always liked the Brighton after the Sea Beach, but it has always bothered me that Q fans, or D fans, or #1 fans, or QB fans, or QT fans (that line has had so many different handles its's a wonder it can even run straight) are so damn arrogant where there line is concerned. They act like it is some exclusive mode of transportation that is their province to ride and ours to hope to be allowed to ride also. They remind me of Yankee fans. Well, I had better stop now before I begin a feud. I wouldn't want to do that, would I now?
I can't wait to strap you on the outside of an R40 slant on MY EXPRESS LINE, YOU LOUSY MET FAN.
Mets stand for:
My
Entire
Team
Sucks
Well, they did last year, anyway. Until things get better, Shea will be known as The Toilet Bowl to me.
Why do you care what letter is on the train? The Q runs over the bridge and terminates at 57th. Given your other posts, it seems like a Q running over the Sea Beach is exactly what you want.
No sir, the Q running on the Sea Beach line is not the Sea Beach running on the Sea Beach line. Very simply put, the Q is the Brighton. Let is stay on the Brighton tracks; the N is the Sea Beach, let it run on the Sea Beach tracks. Besides, Q is not one of my favorite letters while N has always been my favorite, just like #4 was my favorite number when I was a kid. Both are part of the Sea Beach past and present. Ooooooopppppps, I hope the TA didn't read any of this. Knowing them, they probably have something sinister up their damned sleeves concerning my train. Are you now clear Dave?
Very simply put, the Q is the Brighton. Let is stay on the Brighton tracks; the N is the Sea Beach, let it run on the Sea Beach tracks.
Actually, to most of their passengers, the Q is one of two Broadway BMT expresses and the N is one of two Broadway BMT locals. Where they go in Brooklyn isn't of concern to most.
The N is still a Broadway Express to me, even though it's been some time since that was the case. Always will be, too. And the R-32s will always be synonimous with the N to me just as the R-10s and the A are one in the same.
I'm from the same era. The R32s were M, N, Q, and T. The latter three were signed up on the R32s as "Broadway Express".
Well now that we've got that straight Steve and Q Bright, why do you say we try to convince the myopic TA is finally do something right and restore the N to express status? Any others out there want to back us up on it?
Fred, take a look at the plan I posted a few days ago. Or at the plan Chris R27/30 posted a few hours ago, which in my estimation is the most likely service plan for 2004. Both have your train on the bridge weekdays 7 AM through 8 PM, all other times tunnel or shuttle, take your pick. But hey, 7 AM thru 8 PM weekdays is when you have the most riders. I believe there is but little doubt that your train will be restored to the bridge during those hours, at least.
Well Q, I am keeping my fingers crossed on that. I would be more optimistic except I know of what the TA has done in the past to my train and wouldn't put anything past them. However, optimism is supposed to spring eternal so I will keep a stiff upper lip and hope for the best.
And on the R-27/30s, they were known, respectively, as the Broadway-Sea Beach Express, Broadway-Brighton Express, and Broadway-West End Express.
I never rode on a T train, but saw one once or twice on Saturdays just before Chrystie St.
Nothing can compare with the "A" 8th Avenue Express.. NOW THAT'S THE TRAIN!
N Bwy
That will make Steve's day. I have to tell you though that when I leave the airport and take the train into the city it does seem to get there fast because of all the stops it skips. For that I am grateful. The only trouble is that it seems to take forever for the train to get to the Howard Beach Station for me to get on.
Especially when the R-10s ruled with an iron fist, thundering along CPW. When a n/b A hit 81st in full flight, you got the feeling that nothing could stop that train.
I probably wasn't alive to ride it.
N Bwy
You missed a helluva show. A teal-and-white blur, eight or ten cars long, rocketing past. When I saw that for the first time, I knew I had to ride on one of those trains along that stretch. I got to do just that many times over the next few years.
"Where they go in Brooklyn isn't of concern to most." Well it is to me. And I don't like hearing the Sea Beach described as a local. That was the TA's doing. For ages the Sea Beach was an express and rightfully so. Hopefully it will be one again.
Why is it your concern?From what I can remember,you don't even LIVE here!So what happen's to the N has absoultely nothing to do with you.
Stop being so obsessive.
No I don't live here and I can be obsessive as I want. All my friends who know Sea Beach Fred know that he is obsessive where his train is concerned. So I will be as obsessive as I want---na na na na!
^^^"Where they go in Brooklyn isn't of concern to most."^^^
Typical unfledged egotism of a Manhattanite, if it doesn't run
on the West Side, who gives a IOTA about it. >GG<
;-) Sparky
No, it's a statement of fact: most passengers on the Broadway BMT lines are riding between Manhattan and Manhattan. I'm not making a value judgment; I'm just stating an observation.
How did you reach that conclusion?
What do you mean how did he reach that conclusion? He is probably a Manhattanite and knows most riders on the subway ride it in that borough because that's where most of them work. Of course, he does have a little of that Manhattanite arrogance, doesn't he? Well, it sort of reminds me of those Brighton fans of Brooklyn, who display that type of superiority complex. Come on, Kevin, it's what makes Subtalk so much fun. I love these "friendly" exchanges as long as it doesn't get too out of hand.
"He is probably a Manhattanite and knows most riders on the subway ride it in that borough because that's where most of them work. Of course, he does have a little of that Manhattanite arrogance, doesn't he? Well, it sort of reminds me of those Brighton fans of Brooklyn, who display that type of superiority complex."
Well Fred, I don't know about those Manhattanites, but us Brighton fans of Brooklyn have got the superior line.
"Well Fred, I don't know about those Manhattanites, but us Brighton fans of Brooklyn have got the superior line."
THAT IS 110% CORRECT, AND CLEANER, MORE SCENIC, AND MORE FREQUENT THAN FRED'S SLUM-BEACH LINE.
You and the Q. I swear if you were both of a different sex you'd be married about now.
Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha OOH HOO HOO HOO HOO LOL. OMG. OH Fred you are so so funny, that just made me loss few calories because of this post of yours. AHoo Ahoo Hoo Hoo ha ha ha ha.
Glad you enjoyed it. I always try to please. What do you think? Notice how those two always mimmick (sp?) each other. Maybe one is a ventriloquist and the other a---well, you can figure than one out. I like them both, though. I hope they could laugh at it themselves.
They r fine, don't worry about them.
I am happliy married, and she is so nice and beautiful. The only problem I have with "her" is that she is too quick for me, especially when she goes on top at Avenue H.
I'm not touching that.:)
Having never met your lovely wife I will still wager a statement of fact. SHE IS DEFIFNATELY YOUR BETTER HALF. And since she is much quicker than you it is time to hit that weight room and get your walking and running shoes to get into proper shape. She might even cook you a meal if you behave yourself.
Hehe. I know lots of guys complaining about their wife cook. Some of those guys said their wife is an amazing cook while other said she terrible. Well, I'm not married yet.
I'm happily single, too.
Thats make two of us.
Of course, Linda is your better half.
Absolutely.
Observations. Watch all the people who hop on at Times Square and off at Union Square. Or on at 57th and off at 34th. Or who transfer from an express to a local and ride the local two stops. Remember, someone who rides from 34th to 28th counts as much as a passenger as someone who rides from Coney Island to Astoria.
Although I still doubt it, I will admit that it's possible that a small majority of rush hour Broadway BMT travel is interborough. Off-peak, including all day on weekends, most usage is clearly within Manhattan.
(Off-peak, including all day on weekends, most usage is clearly within Manhattan.)
Certainly a lot of it is. But if I ride the BMT from 57th or 42nd to Union Square on a weekend afternoon (which I do a fair amount), I sense a gradual increase in density. The most crowded point is Union Square, and most of those folks aren't getting off at Canal St.
Once the MB is fully open, many of those people may end up on a D to Dekalb, however. Certainly before July 2001, the southbound BMT trains were getting emptier as they went south.
It's been so long since both sides of the bridge were open that I don't think we can really predict what Broadway traffic, especially on the weekends, will look like.
That's because the intra-Manhattan passengers ride short distances.
Consider a simplistic example:
60 passengers board at Times Square -- 10 bound for Herald Square, 20 bound for Union Square, 10 bound for Canal, 20 bound for Brooklyn.
60 passengers board at Herald Square -- 20 bound for Union Square, 20 bound for Canal, 20 bound for Brooklyn.
60 passengers board at Union Square -- 20 bound for Canal, 40 bound for Brooklyn.
The train is most crowded leaving of Union Square, but of the 180 passengers who have boarded, less than half are going to Brooklyn.
And that's the express. On the local the numbers make my point even more strongly.
I wonder what Bob has to say about this.:)
Who gives a rat's ass what Bob thinks of it? The Q is running on my tracks. Let the Sea Beach run on his tracks and then we can hear what he has to say. Until then he keeps his damn Brighton mouth shut.
Linda must be rolling her eyes about now.:)
Linda does not get involved in my rantings about the Sea Beach my friend. She knows when it comes to that, the Mets, and the Republicans she treads very lightly. Of course, my wife actually converted me to the GOP and now she realizes she created a monster.
Ah, but the real question is, did she know about your fanaticism for the Sea Beach when she married you?:)
No, and I never mentioned it to her until one day early in 1974 when I suggested that I should visit New York for the first time since I left 20 years earlier. It was then I first mentioned the Sea Beach because up until then I didn't have any interest in ever returning to New York. It just hit me one day in Pasadena. From then on, she heard it until she tuned me out. In those days I coached Babe Ruth League Baseball and later Stan Musial ball and my teams were first priority with me. After I stopped coaching in '96 I became more fanatical about my train as I needed new hobbies to occupy my time.
BTW, is your new Brooklyn Dodger cap ready yet?
I agree, the Sea Beach should run on its tracks. That includes the Broadway Local through the Cortlandt St.-City Hall torture, right?
Hey Q, did your lovely mom have any kids that lived?
We've both managed to survive, Fred, thank you. I just like taking you to task once in a while. BTW, where is your friend #1 Brighton Exp Bob? Has he been diverted to the Montague Tunnel again?
Q, who knows? Actually Bob has been taking care of his mother who is in her 90's and very ill. Hopefully my good friend will be back online very soon and we can resume our friendly exchanges. As for taking me to task, have at it. It is fun, isn't it? What gets me, though, is that a few of us on Subtalk really have a very slim sense of humor. This is supposed to be fun so keep it going.
I'm starting to miss The Bob and Fred Show already.:)
They complain they never heard anything even if they DID!That's how people are.Always aching for some dumbass attention over something so trivial.
OOH, Such anger.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey it's the truth ya know.Trust me,I've seen it first hand.I can't even use a basic word like ridiculous cause it's way,way,WAAAAYYYYY beyond that.
Yeah, and you ARE female. I have it on good account. Someone I know *SAW* you and Trevor together>>>>>>>HAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm talking about this one person in this one case. Sometimes people do hear announcements.
V, you sound like a frustrated transit worker. Are you?
I'm not a transit worker....yet.But a annoyed transit buff,that I am.
Well I'm annoyed with you if you believe the Q should be allowed to traverse on the Sea Beach tracks. In an emergency it can't be helped, but knowing your friends at the TA, they would suddenly get a bright idea to make this thing semi-permanent. My train has been screwed up enough by those dorks. It's time a few pearls were thrown the N's way.
Ya know,you need to chill man.Sides I never said that and in my view,any train can be allowed to go anywhere wether it be permanent or not.But don't worry,luckily for you,the N will always be the Sea Beach route.Just don't come yip yapping at me when other train's run over the Sea Beach,which in this case is always the W.Hell,a few late night's and even some weekend's they don't have the N run at all and have the W run in it's place cause the N will just get in the way of the W when it doesn't run on the West End.
ROTFLMAO......I should chill out? I've heard your rantings over the past few months. I thought you'd appreciate hearing someone who could give you a run for your money in the chilling department. BTW, why don't we just get rid of the V train? It's a piece of useless garbage, I'm told.
Calm down!...Calm Down Relax Fred! Let just concentrating on getting the N back to the Manny bridge. Anyway, do like my Manny B service plan on the "Manhattan Bridge 2004: My Best and Final Offer" thread.
Express M, I love your plan. I think it would work very well. It did take a lot of thinking to come up with that, didn't it? I hope the TA is reading it and implements something like it. It would make my day. As for chilling out, I was trying to get V 47's goat and I'm sure I will hear from her.
It did take a lot of thinking to come up with that, didn't it?
Oh yeah! I have I look through all my old maps from 1980 - present putting all the previous Manny B Service all together revised its serval time. I gotta tell u, Its fun to do that.
Uh Fred, V 47 revealed not too long ago that he's male.
Say Fred, I hope you're sitting down.
The Veteran's committee didn't elect anyone to the Hall of Fame. Gill Hodges came up just short, I'm afraid.:(
I read it in the morning papers. What a pisser. Gil Hodges really deserved to be voted in. A real miscarriage and I'll tell you what's even worse. The Fu@#$^&* Dodgers won't retire his number 14. They retired Gilliam's after his tragic death, but he couldn't carry Gil's jock. The least they could do is recognize the Dodgers' all time second man in homers with 376.
The last few dingers came when Gil was with the Mets. Did you know he hit the first home run in Met history?
I remember when the Mets retired his number 14. It was on Old Timers Day in 1973. After they presented his uniform shirt to his widow, Joan, she addressed the crowd and thanked everyone for remembering Gil.
I could send you the copy of my own 2004 Subway Plan document via email if you like one.
I would like one====fperitore@altrionet.com
Fred, You can find them on the attachment from my email
That's what your told?Well it's wrong!That is said by all those jackass V hater's.Nobody bother's to listen to the people who really like the V train,me being the #1 supportor of the V IMO.
I was trying to egg you on and I succeeeded. Now maybe you will know how I feel about the Sea Beach. When I read how people don't care for the V I think of you and I'm sure you're not happy about it. Same with me where the Sea Beach is concerned. The only difference, I think, is that I have made a number of friends on Subtalk who know me well enough to razz the hell out of me and I laugh it off and kid them back. When you get some real buddies on Subtalk you will find that ragging on the V will all be in fun and you can retaliate in the same spirit.
Hey I am both a transit worker and a train buff, and I admit by everyday experience with even overly-loud PA systems, and the most clearest, clean cut announcements that I make, PEOPLE STILL DO NOT GET IT NOR DO THEY UNDERSTAND!!! You have to practically take them by the hand and guide them, like babies, and spoon-feed directions to them like they are babies. It gets downright frustrating and very much annoying, especially giving how patient I am and how professional I am. You can only deal with so much stupidity and sheer deafness!! I agree completely with what V Train says!!
"I just hate the ta after this"
GOOD! We hate you too!
It wasn't a signal problem. It was a broken rail. Service was diverted for about 3 hours during the late morning/early afternoon.
David
well you see the reason i hate the ta is the 10:05 AND 10:39 were canceled and i was running 3 1/2 to 4 hours after this double fiasco from the "mta" i was just pissed dont take it to heart
Story here:
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=5843
The restriction of use of insurance money for the Capital budget is appropriate. MTA just got paid back 100% of the cost of rebuilding and reopening the IRT (Tully-Pegno did it for about $100 million), plus about $80 million for other things.
If it gets an additional $650 million, that could help get the new transit mall done. The preparation work is already underway, and the mall itself will start construction in 2004.
That, in turn, will allow MTA to spend FEMA construction money on yet other capital items.
This is, in general, good news.
Oh, don't take my postings which point to articles as being necessarily negative - I thought it would just be something folks here might be interested in since nobody else seemed to have noticed the "news" ... I'm quite ambivalent personally, and having worked in government for a number of years know the administrative need for separation of "operations" and "capital" line items.
I don't know why UTU put the Hevesi piece into the same story, but wanted to let folks know that both were in there. Then again, UTU does make it a point of republishing whatever they do without editing or comment so if that's what the original reporter wrote, they won't cut it or break a story in two.
But I'm personally glad to hear MTA did get some money, that'll allow the existing line items prior to the event to be put back into the original accounts for which the monies were allocated. And as to their problems with the state Comptroller's office ... well ... agencies ARE supposed to account for themselves properly. Enron style accounting is NOT allowed in New York State agencies (unless certain politicos get a cut of it of course). :)
Interesting that it's a Democrat subpoenaing. Are the anti-fare-hike forces primarily Democrat?
I agree with you.
I wasn't insinuating anything about your post, BTW. It was fine.
Howdy! Nah, I wasn't worried about YOU ... last few weeks, any time I've said ANYTHING about any issue even peripherally connected with the elephant party, my email gets stuffed with all sorts of weird stuff and hate mail. So natch, I'm trying to be careful that folks understand that I'm merely putting things out there to be examined and not trying to form a religion. :)
Saw a full consist of R-40M running downtown express at Union Square last night. (Mon, around 8:45pm or so.) Are they mixing the modifieds in with the slants now, or was that a one time put in from the N? Anyone know?
There is at leaste one R-40M trainset running on the Q. It has been there for a few months. I saw one trainset R-40M trainset on the Q about two weeks ago that had one R-42 mixed into the consist. Unfortunitly the train was moving in the other direction at Church ave and I could not get the car number
Just yesterday ago, I saw a R68A diamond Q sitting on the lower level canal street brooklyn bound platform around lunch time when I was tranferring from the Z to the uptown N. I was in a hurry to meet someone and I couldn't get even the number.
I can assure you, there was NO R-68 or R-68A on the Q diamond.
You mean there ain't none of these:
---Brian
Brian, I believe he means NOW. Not months (or years) ago.
Yeah, the R-68s are all arranged with the full-width cabs facing out now.
That could have been a full width cab; there was probably someone in the cab with the T/O.
As far as I know, the last time 68s and 68As ran on the diamond Q was during the post 9/11 service pattern.
Someone asked about car numbers to that R42 and R40M paired together. R40M 4460 and R42 4665 are the mismatched pair.
The T/O is in the center window and (i hope) a TSS operating.
That is indeed a TSS operating.
I stand corrected, then.
First of all I just verified with the Q dispatcher that there has not been a 68 or 68A on the diamond in months. How old is this picture?
August 2001. I was just providing an illustration. I didn't say this was taken yesterday or that you were wrong. You gotta cut me some slack here. There may be other prople on this board who try to pick fights with you or be wisearses, but I'm not one of them. So from now on when you see me reply to a post, unless I specificly state otherwise, you can assume that I'm on your side.
If you bothered to read the post that I responded to, the poster said that there was a R68A on the train "yesterday". So unless that was taken on MONDAY, All you are trying to do is be a wise ass.
Calm down Mark W. Brian is just nice enough to share with us this photo. So relax and enjoy.
I read the previous post, but from your answer, I couldn't tell if you meant that there NEVER have been any R-68's or that there just weren't any yesteday. So for good measure, I popped in my photo to show that it can and has happened. But I'm in no way disagreeing with your answer about "yesterday."
do i see a railfan window on that hippos set of subway cars ?
or is that a nyc transit employee?
..................................?....................!
Pretty sure it's a transit employee.
x...........!!..........thatz what i thoutz .........K
Ah! The beauty of a Brighton Express train rising from open cut to embankment between Newkirk and Ave H stations. Such a lovely sight indeed, sit down in comfort as it whisks you to Kings Highway in under 3.5 minutes. Another reason why I cherish the Brighton line.
There used to be one R-68A set assigned to the diamond-Q in one of the rush hours -- afternoon, I think. With all the R-40 and R-40M arrivals, I don't know if it still is.
That was done only immediately after 9/11, when the R40s were given to the M to provide extra service, because many of the R40Ms and R42s were in service on the J (Jamaica via Broadway Junction to Bay Ridge) after the 9/11 disruption.
No, it was the in the official car assignment matrix for some time of "normal" operation, I think in July 2001 or maybe January 2002.
I've seen it, too.
I don't know what the current assignment is.
Sounds like you saw 4460 and 4665, the widows from the Williamsburg Bridge accident. They were remarried. As you can see in the picture below, look at the car in front of 4460. It isn't the same. That is 4665. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get any better views of both cars.
"I saw one trainset R-40M trainset on the Q about two weeks ago that had one R-42 mixed into the consist. Unfortunitly the train was moving in the other direction at Church ave and I could not get the car number"
You mean car #'s 4460 (R40M) & 4665 (R42) the only mismatched pair using two different car models in the current car classes.
The R-40M's (including the married pair of one R-40M and one R-42) are being run on both the N and the diamond-Q.
Contrary to the impression some seem to have, there is no fixed set of cars used on each line from day to day. Any given R-40 or R-40M can show up on the diamond-Q one day and on the N the next (and on the W when the weekend rolls around).
I can verify this (wish I had photographic proof). I saw a R40 on the Q diamond one day with "Ditmars Blvd Astoria" on the North Terminal Roll.
Yeah, there have been two 40M's running on the diamond Q this week, with three or four running on the N (and 4522-25 newly transferred, moving around the yard).
I was wondering why they didn't standardize the fleet by putting all the modifieds and remaining 32's on the Q, and all the slant on the N. That would be somewhat a return to 20 years ago, when the Brighton had all the 40m's and many 32's. (they seem to fit better on the Q than the slants).
But it seems the modifieds are in better condition than the slants, and the whole idea is to have the worse cars on the part time line. (Plus, the 32's don't have diamond Q)
I have seen R40M's on the Q myself, even rode a consist last week.
I also saw one surprising right after Christmas, but of course that is when they started popping there.
Tutch was interviewed for a local nwspaper. You can read the story at:
http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2003/02/25/features/ink/c9f2ac1d4c69510886256cd7005236f7.txt
thanks, Moke. Tuch managed to get across without the reporter getting in the way.
Norfolk Southern anounced today that they were fully converting their automatic track greasing machines to use a soy based grease that is 100% bio-degradable. They are puschasing the grease from some environmental lubricating firm out in Iowa. Currently there will be a winter and summer mix, but they are working on an all season mix. Hopefully other railroads will follow NS's lead. Not only does it pollute less, but it takes a little money from forgein oil exporters and gives it to US farmers.
Soy! Soy! Soy!
I'm going to invest in soy on the futures market. I hope to make enough money to visit the Wigsphere at the WO D F IR in Knoxville, TN and buy an Al Gore doll.
"You are hearing me talk" -Al Gore.
"MMMMmmmmm Soy based grease" Homer Simpson
NO! Homer Simpson would never eat anything made of soy.
IT'S LOW FAT!
When why would he ever eat a fish sandwitch?
That was OK, the wall turned clear.
The MTA had a pair of Redbird r-33 cars which were outfitted
(and labeled on the interior) for having a Video Camera
system installed within the confines of the (axiflow?) fan
housing in the ceiling.
The purpose of this project was an attempt to catch scratchitti
vandals in the make.....
Now,... my question is this:
Did the project ever prove beneficial?
Where did these cameras feed a video signal TO?
(I'm not posting car numbers for sake of security in the event
this set still happens to be active in service)..
Was this ever a beneficial expense?
"Was this ever a beneficial expense? "
Considering that it was only done this way in a couple of cars I would say it wasn't.
The set is (or recently was) still Active.
Because it says in the cars, that there is a video camera, I think that it would cause no harm to say the #s(9000,9001)
I remember seeing the camera in R 33 car # 9101
The story from The Boston Herald.
Let the good times roll.
There was a really interesting peace on the Toronto Subway on the TV show "ACME SCHOOL OF STUFF" on channel 13 last night. Acme school of stuff is a science show from the late 80's in canada that demonstrates how mechanical and technology works.
The peace on the Toronto subway went over what the signals ment, how the signaling system works. What causes and how to get out flat spots in wheels. There were pictures of toronto central command center(even through the footage was from 1988, it was light years ahead of what i saw at CI yard a few years back), tunnels etc. A subfans delight.
The program was part of channel 13's ITV (instructional TV program)
The Next time episode 8 which includes subway technology will air is Saturday, March 15
Episode(s): 8-13
2am
Get your VCR's ready
Some topics covered in the series
"13 programs, approximately 25 minutes This imaginative series explores the basic principles behind everyday items like telephones and light bulbs, and shows what makes them work. For his explanations of the complex stuff that surrounds us, host David Stringer uses a variety of household objects and homemade gadgets. In most programs, he explores three items -- one filmed on location, and two in his own workshop. Besides learning about technology in the home, students get a firsthand look at the science involved in the manufacture of such things as cellular phones, elevators, and TV cameras and in processes such as the treatment of water and operation of a subway system"
http://www.thirteen.org/edonline/itv/search.php?step=2&program_id=17
Did they show any trains? If so, any red ones?
-Robert King
Yes they showed trians and the differnent types of tunnels. Including trains going through the car wash. Traveling down tunnels, in the shop getting wheel repaired etc.
I only caught the tail end of the program. Id did not see any red trains. The train was stainless steal with two bulkhead signs similar to the redbirds.
It is a must see for subtalker
I couldn't sleep so I ended up watching about 1 1/2 of shows on other topics. Very interesting stuff.
No TTC subway car has ever had two end signs. The only thing I can think of that might be confusing you is if you saw a Y-U-S train with the signs in use in the 80s:
Wilson VIA Downtown
Finch VIA Downtown
The small VIA in the middle could make it look like two signs when it was really only one.
Who knows, there could have been footage of Gloucsters in an earlier part of the program. They were running in large numbers up untill 1988 and 1989, when the scrapping really took place in earnest.
-Robert King
You are probably correct. It was 2 am and i could not sleep and just happened to stumble upon the program.
The 'stainless steel' subway cars actually have aluminum skins on top of a steel underframe.
-Robert King
Believe it or not -- and I'm going to show my age here -- decades ago when the Mickey Mouse Club was on TV every week, they did the same exact sort of thing about NYCTA!
They showed the CI shops, and then a lot of yard scenes and from what I remember, CLEAN R-10's!!!
Interesting stuff. I would love to see it. I have a freind that works for ABC news. He might be able to request a copy (for the news ha ha). Do you have any idea the of the general year/date it aired.
The Scottsdale, Az City Council Just approved a Link to the Valley Metro Rail System. They are going to run the line north on Rural Road from Terrace St Tempe (Connecting with Main Line to Phoenix & Mesa) to Scottsdale Road and Camelback with future Ext. North to Scottsdale Airport. No date has been set for construction or opening.
Hi. I am making an independent documentary video about commuting on the NYC subway system.
I am compiling peoples stories, memories or general anecdotes about experiences they've had on the subway. The stories can be either good, bad, or neither. Most of these are interviews on video, usually about 3 minutes long each. If you would like to be part of this, please write to me at themadparade@hotmail.com
I am in the downtown area, and I will come to you to videotape your story if it is feasable for both of us.
Thank you.
Hi. I am making an independent documentary video about commuting on the NYC subway system.
I am compiling peoples stories, memories or general anecdotes about experiences they've had on the subway. The stories can be either good, bad, or neither. Most of these are interviews on video, usually about 3 minutes long each. If you would like to be part of this, please write to me at themadparade@hotmail.com
I am in the downtown area, and I will come to you to videotape your story if it is feasable for both of us.
Thank you.
DV or AV?
I'm referring to the Five Points area. Thanks to the research of Gregory Christiano, there is a new set of clippings and illustrations on the urbanography site.
What fascinates me is how much of near downtown was water and swamp. We know that the shoreline was built out--I'm talking about the interior. Is it only in New York that they should drain a large pond (a small lake, really), build a neighborhood on top of it, and then wonder why it all crumbles?
Well, much of Mexico City is built on top of a large dried out lake bed, which to add to the problem is also in a major earthquake zone. So they problem knows no international boundaries.
The PL42AC will be a series of diesel-powered locomotives that will soon arrive on NJT property (Dec. 2004)
Does anyone have any details of this locomotive?
Here are some technical aspects of the locomotive (by A-nonny-Moose from Railroad.net's Forum):
New locomotives for NJT: Underneath the PL42AC's sleek monocoque all-steel carbody is an EMD 16-cylinder 710G3B-T1 prime-mover and TA-17 main alternator driving an IGBT traction inverter and frame-mounted a.c. traction motors on bolsterless two-axle trucks with 44-inch wheels and combination disc/tread/dynamic brakes. Starting tractive effort is 69,975 pounds; continuous tractive effort is 27,000 pounds. Horsepower is 4,200; traction power at the wheels is 3,620 hp - enough to pull eight bilevel coaches at 100 mph. HEP of 800 kW is supplied by the prime-mover. The PL42AC weighs 144 tons and is 69 feet-10 inches long, 10 feet-8 inches wide, and 15 feet-5 inches high. Fuel capacity is 2,250 gallons. In addition to standard AAR 27-pin connections, the communications system is equipped with NJ Transit's pioneering DTN (Digital Trainline Network) technology. The locomotive meets FRA/APTA Tier I crashworthiness standards, EPA Tier I emissions requirements (upgradeable to Tier II after Jan. 1, 2007), and, at 88 dB, exceeds federal noise level standards. The first two units are scheduled to be delivered from Alstom's Valencia, Spain, plant in March 2004, with the full order of 33 completed by December 2004. STV, Inc., is providing engineering and design services to the NJ Transit/Alstom project team, which is led respectively by David Carter and Ricardo Albeda.
Bah, I would have preferred to see some of those MHC36's or whatever they're called, or better yet, re-rengined GP-50's.
I hope this dosen't mean the end of the 13 Original CNJ GP-40P's.
Why buy an antique when you can have a better, more modern design? DC traction is a maintenance nightmare, performs poorly, and has poor traction control (even the best DC's can barely approach what AC traction can do - the control an AC invert has over a motor is pretty impressive)
Though for some stupid reason, the PL-42 will be obnoxiously heavy, even for what it is. I'm starting to wonder how great Alsthom/Bombardier really is at design, since they can't build anything light.
Interestingly, the HHP-8 and ALP-46 meet the same FRA standards, yet the ALP-46 is a whooping 10 tons lighter, yet equally powerfu, and in fact can edge out the HHP-8 specwise in some places.
At 145 tons, the PL-42 is quite heavy, even for a diesel (and especially a monobody design, even the P-40/42 is nearly 10 tons lighter, yet I believe is built stronger than what Tier I requires, to say nothing of an F-40, which is significantly lighter). The weight won't be of any use above about 20mph, due to the low HP.
And, I'd STILL like to know what exactly it was about the M-1's body that put it out of compliance (beyond the bogus cab issues), as the M-6s were delivered in the late 90's, were the same design, and complied.
You use them cause they're cheaper. You could even get away with installing a pre-packaged AC traction system if you wanted. EMD builds a quality frame and for commuter operations you don't need a multi-million $ wonder vehicle.
Most AC drives are prepackaged. I can't imagine RR ones are anything special anymore, since AC drives exceed 1000 hp/motor in indusrty by quite a bit (I believe 10,000 hp is where your choices start getting narrow these days). Probbably just hardened against weather/vibration.
DC's dead. DC sucks. It really does. It's going away from everything. The current crop of AC inverters are simply better in every single way.
Except price. A/c is much more expensive. When manufactures come down in price, more units will be acquired.
True, but the cost of replacing brushes and dropping motors as part of routine DC traction maintenance does have its price too. Nothing rings up the cash register faster than a stall condition or full power at 2 MPH where the ammeter smokes and you're STILL not moving. But of course, the "powers that be" rarely think that far. Conrail was MIGHTY pleased with the SD80MAC's and 90MAC's ... plenty of power when you needed it and if an inverter cabinet died, you'd just crane out the old one, drop in a new, wipe the windshield and away it went again. :)
Sure you might not get the absolute "oomph" to start a dead load out of AC like you did with series-wounds, but you also didn't suffer the wheel slip with AC traction either. I really got to like the SD80MAC's before CSX acquired them, went "what de fuh?" and ditched all the units in the midwest. :(
It seems to be going that way, but railroads are still balking at the initial cost. Even though they are pleased with the lower maintenance cost associated with A/C traction. But that is little consellation for all the people that BNSF laided off in Burlinton, Iowa.
Don't count the SD80MAC out of the east coast just yet, I saw one northbound over the High Line here in Philly in the twilight yesterday.
Course the consists that go over that line are so friggin predictable, either it will be the NS C44-9W+ 2nd or 3rd Gen EMD diesel, or the CSX SD60M + C40-8W, or late nights a GP38 pair seems to crawl up out of the area around the naval yard and up over the high line. Really the SD80MAC was a welcome sight, something quite out of the ordinary.
It was northbound, perhaps it was coming up for a visit to Selkirk-land?
Maybe, but CSX ditched *ALL* of them because their still-builders had no IDEA of what to do with AC traction. Seriously, CSX ditched them because they don't want to LEARN AC locomotives. NS did get a few, wish I could remember which midwestern railroad got the Ex-Conrail 4100-4120 locos, but you don't see them HERE unless they're leased power. Dumbchits. Knew a mechanic for Conrail who accompanied me on a couple of trips I did at the console, and he thought they were GREAT.
Motors didn't burn - any problems on them were the inverter of power conversion units. Attach minicrane to hooks, loosen a few bolts, lift out, drop another one in, good to go. Send back the unit to the factory for repair, when it came back, put on the spares shelf. Lazy mechanics LOVED the AC units. Merely a question of WHICH box to lift off the loco and replace so it could leave the barn. :)
Dropping motors in a pit bites. There was next to NO undercar with these things - grease, change shoes, off it goes. But to CSX, it ain't a GTO, ditch the mutha.
Ah, but what happens when they run out of spares? Can they build more from scratch at Selkirk?
Nope ... at Selkirk, it's all DC ... CSX don't want no "newfangled AC motooors" and by gum, they's gone. Lo, verily, put your hand on the RED wire and FEEL the power! Moo. :)
The problem is what if our country accidently declares ware on everybody and those german inverter packs stop rolling in? What if the national infrastructure is damaged to a degree where all you have available are the tools in your locomotive maintainence shoppe?
In DC locos the weakness is in the motors, of which there are 4-6 per locomotive. In AC the weakness is in the inverter system, of which I believe there is a single unit. If you burned up 2 or 3 of your DC motors you could still keep rollin.
Critical infrastructure needs to have a failsafe mode that can have some degree of functionality with high tech gadgets and/or computers cut out. These would include things like motor vehicles, transit vehicles, railroad locomotives, elevators, fire supression systems, utility distrabution, waste treatment, etc.
sorry Mike but on any DC locomotive you can only cut out one motor on a 4 axle loco and two on a 6 axle unit.
if you cut out more than two the DC loco is dead.
On ac locomotive, EMD uses one inverter for two motors so a 6 axle locomotive has three traction inverters.
you can cut out one inverter for 100% hp or two inverters for 50% power yes plenty of spare on AC traction motors
on GE's they use one inverter per tracktion motor so the odds are even higher to get beast over road.
AMEN, bro! Didn't want to get into the arguments of the nitties and the gritties, but you did it FOR me. I owe you a brew. :)
Hey, that's super, at least they aren't totally daft.
Well then, brother ... we're SCOOD ... fortunately EMD and GE have a clue as to making Triacs do triple duty. In the cabinet, there's a separate inverter for each motor. If you screw up SIX motors by burning out their supplies, well ... might wanna drive a BUS as your next career option. :)
Besides ... what's wrong with Deutschland or Vive la France? Just because we've got A$$HOLES who can't understand the concept of "show us da money?" HELL ... any TRUE American patriot would ALSO be asking Rummy "where's the beef?" But even then, just like now, they ain't GOT no cow. But we'll blow the QWAP outta them damned towelheads even if we CAN'T find Usama ...
"GOING TO WAR WITHOUT FRANCE IS LIKE GOING DEER HUNTING WITHOUT YOUR ACCORDIAN."
- DONALD RUMSFELD
'nuff said, NEW YORK don't need no federal funds to prevent terrorism ... after all, the REAL terrorist threats are to ATLANTA, New York will NEVER be attacked ... Shrub SPENT so ... word. :(
Most locos have multiple inverters. But then, inverters are remarkably reliable (no moving parts, well protected against transients). I believe it was either EMD or GE that was claiming that they've had zero failures of them on some series of locomotive. They're a mature, well understood technology by now. In any case, lose an inverter, you still have 100% HP available on at least GE units, probbably EMDs too. Can't get that with DC.
I'm guessing GE does an inverter per axle to get that extra fine control (Does anyone know if they use feedback encoders on the motor shafts?). There's no arguement an AC locomotive gets better adhesion than even the best DCs. They simply have MUCH better control over things.
Interestingly, the ALP-46's starting TE is something like 30% higher than the ALP-44's, despite being the same weight. AC traction makes the difference.
And, as pointed out already, DC motor cutouts aren't totally flexible, and on some equipment, it's cut a truck out (lots of MUs are like this I think).
Does anyone know if the motors on the new subway cars are totally sealed types? They looked it in the pics I've seen.,,
I don't care how the loco is powered, but at the very least it should be able to function after being hit by an EMP of either nuclear or conventional origin.
e current crop of AC
inverters are simply better in every single way.
Interestingly enough on the R142/142A order, the AC traction
package undercar is bigger than the DC equivalent. There was
insufficient room under there to fit the two packages needed for
4 motors plus compressor and LVPS, so the compromise was to make
the compressor cars 2-motor. And this is with the space savings
from the new package HVAC units!
Does anyone have a measurement of the maximum amount of power that a train can draw from a catenary wire or 3rd rail?
This can include speed (if "unlimited-powered" motors are available), and acceleration. Supplemental information will be helpful.
Thank You.
Interesting question.
It has been posted here that a NYC subway train draws 5,000 amps of 600 volt electricity when "charging up."
The amount of power being delivered would be limited by the supply and by the carrying capacity of the third rail. I don't know what that is, however.
You could have a million amps or more running throughh a third rail that has to support several trainsets.
In an effort to obtain additional rolling stock, the BMT bought 30 old SIRT cars, 25 motors and 5 trailers, in 1955. The cars were quite similar to the BMT Standards. The motors were renumbered 2900-2924, and the trailers were renumbered 2925-2929. The cars were repainted, and the seating modified. The cars were also equipped with ceiling fans and gate car destination signs. The motor cars went into service in the fall of 1955 on the Culver Line. The trailer cars were used for yard storage around the system.
Trailer 2925 had been set up at the entrance to Fresh Pond yard, and was being used as a dispatcher's office car. On the morning of Jan. 14th, 1966, it was struck by an empty train of Q cars, led by 1609C. It was hit hard enough that it was knocked into the LIRR cut.
It is interesting to note that this occurred on the first day of service after the prolonged 1966 transit strike.
Some at the BMT Division in those days referred to the SIRT cars as "E" types to fit them into BMT car classifications.
Wasn't the modification to the seats some sort of block so that the walk-over mechanism wouldn't work? I may be wrong on that, but I seem to recall that being done.
The blue and maroon paint scheme on those cars was a handsome one.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I can't believe that a car weighing the same as a BMT standard was done in by a train of wooden, albeit modified, el cars!:)
can't believe that a car weighing the same as a BMT standard was done in by a train of wooden, albeit modified, el cars
Steve: Incredible but true. The old girl litterly as well as figuratively threw that SIRT cars clean off the BMT. (down into the LIRR cut).
Larry, RedbirdR33
From what I heard described of this incident, the Q car that did the hitting was demolished; and the SIRT car was set in rapid motion by the force of the impact, headed nose-first downhill and onto the LIRR tracks.
wayne
Contrary to that statement, 1609 sustained relatively minor damage and was returned to service.
Best wishes,
Bob
According to the August 1967 issue of the New York Division ERA Bulletin, both 2925 & 1609C were cut up for scrap on July 10th 1967. It would seem that neither car fared too well in the wreck.
1609A was renumbered to replace 1627A, which was wrecked in another accident. There is no mention of 1609B, the middle car of the original 3 car Q set that was involved in the crash with the SIRT car.
Mass * momentum = whump. :)
Usually it's the steel car that does the whumping. If that had been a BMT standard slamming into that SIRT car, the outcome would have been different, i. e. more damage to the SIRT car.
I suspect if it had been standards, the LIRR would have been closed for a week. :)
That SIRT car would have blasted a new ROW.
8 standards and a SIRT car would have dug a whole new subway. :)
Four Triplexes and that SIRT car would have been buried on the spot.
Yeah, Heypaul's right. It's fantasyland. :)
More like Wally World, IMHO.
I think Graham Chapman is about to stop this thread for getting too silly...
^^^"8 standards"^^^
IIRC, the Myrtle~Chambers were only sets of 6 standards. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Ah well, whacky terbacky not required to imagine "what if?" Hell, you know me ... IND ... 4 cars, 8 cars, 10 cars, 6 is RIGHT out even if they hung stop markers for them. :)
Kevin,
I still remember 11 cars of our favorites on the "F" with two C/Rs.
All the original IND was built to station at most an 11 car train [660'].
;-) Sparky
You're a real pain in the asp today. Heh. Yeah, heard about it, never saw it and yes, 11 car markers lasted a long time. But one of the things that pleased me the MOST was that if I "ran too long" (Tremont or Fordham, forget which now) would STILL leave me on the platform even if the brakes were "slow" and thus, BUZZZZzzzzz ... good enough for gubmint work. :)
But I *do* recall seeing some rotted out 11's in Queens. Wonder WHY the MTA never considered how crowded the trains were when they needed 11 cars in the first place and decided to built a stupid extra tunnel into Manhattan with nowhere to really go on either end. Meanwhile ... ah, nevermind. I'll only be getting into hours of discussions that I can't afford over where the damned V runs. Or worse, why isn't 76th Street open yet? Heh.
^^^"You're a real pain in the asp today"^^^
You mean I've gotten to one of the "Masters of Nut Cracking" on SubTalk!!!
But you confirmed what I said. Didn't realize the 11 car markers lasted till the early seventies.
I remember the 11 car F's in the fifties. Just might have been a CO$$$T factor, since they ran in rush hour only. The extra C/R & labor to cut the extra car. IMHO. >GG<
;-) Sparky
YEP ... really DID see them out there in Queens (another part of school car) ... but they were long in the tooth, and short in the comb. :)
None on Concourse or Wash Hgts though. Unknown except the local platforms south of 42, and on most, long since gone or replaced by 4's ...
If you watch the subway scene in The Wrong Man, look carefully between the first and second cars of the train when Henry Fonda gets off. You'll see a conductor on the step plates.
Between Pelham, Money Train and a few GENEROUS donations from Heypaul Heavy Industries to our video library, I've got ENOUGH foamerfilm. Heh. Wrong man? If it ain't on DVD, then it ain't. :)
I have a VHS copy of it. They show it on AMC every so often.
OK, as a Catholic I get it, "Holy Film of Obligation" just like that piece'o'qwap "Munny train" ... I get it ... will watch the DirecTV schedule. :)
OK, as a Catholic I get it, "Holy Film of Obligation" just like that piece'o'qwap "Munny train" ... I get it ... will watch the DirecTV schedule. :)
Selkirk: I'm sure that you are familiar with "Days of Fast and Abstinence." My wife works with a young married girl who thinks that on a "Day of Abstinence" you can't have any sex.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Heh. Don't feel bad, I know some people who had no idea that they could listen to AM radio in the afternoon. :)
Days of fasting and abstinence are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday for us Catholics. We're also supposed to abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent.
Steve, with Eastern Euopean ties, I'm sure our households still
follow those traditions.
;-)Sparky
We do. I've met some non-Catholics who still think we follow this practice year 'round, and are surprised when I tell them we dropped that back in 1966. AFAIK people over 65 are not required to observe fasting and abstinence during Lent.
Personally I prefer to have meatless fridays. Fish or Caesar salads or Cheese sandwiches at Subway or Blimpie.
'Freedom Fries' with Coca-Cola. Don't forget to turn in last years palms before Wednesday. CI Peter
We do. I've met some non-Catholics who still think we follow this practice year 'round, and are surprised when I tell them we dropped that back in 1966. AFAIK people over 65 are not required to observe fasting and abstinence during Lent
Back in 1966 St Christopher was busted too. So whatever you do don't get lost.
Larry, RedbirdR33
in fact several other of the denominations have similar traditions. and to mention movies --with transit content!!!-- see Black Orpheus for a killer retelling of Greek Legend over Carnaval in Rio de Janiero including nice trolley footage. Happy Mardi Gras in whatever manner you choose to observe.
We'll, I've been trying to lose the weight I put on after the disaster all year. I'm down 45, but nothing in the last few months. So I'm looking forward to Lent as an opportunity to lose the last 20 or so.
Back OT, I'm going to try to get my butt out of bed and get back in the habit of walking up to Grand Army and taking the IRT. The timing of the trains is such that walking the 1 1/2 block to the F only saves me 10 minutes! Tough to get out and do that walk in the cold and dark, however, on the days I'm due in at 7:00 am. I like the snow, but now I'm looking forward to the new season.
Eastern Rites are still observed by many Episcopalians as a matter of custom. ECUSA shares much with the Greek Orthodox denominations and I'm always surprised when attending a Catholic service to see how common and united our services are. Nothing like attending 'High Church Smells and Bells.' CI Peter
They use incense during Mass at our cathedral in Denver. The church I attend almost never does.
I've played at a Western Antioch Orthodox Mass, and the liturgy is nearly identical to a Catholic Mass. It's a time warp for me, as the priest has his back to the people, and during Christmas and Orthodox Easter, everything is in Latin. I still remember the all-Latin Mass.
I'm old enough to remember when the Episcopal Church 180 degreed the alter. The former Rector of the little Church I attend in NJ was once the Rector of an unusual Church in Northern NJ. For whatever reasons, this old Italien Catholic Church seperated from the Diocese and became Episcopal. All of the old Catholic traditions sans Latin hence the title 'Church of Smells and Bells.' Ah yes, that little Mass Book with one side in English and the other in Latin with indications for the bells. The very reason why I attend Church at 8AM...the Olde English Service. Old remains good...just like my Redbirds on #5. The Minister of my Church keeps trying out new stuff like South African services...the locals have all walked out and visitors of other denominations never come back. Catholics who felt unwelcome in their parishes come and are familiar with a more orthodox service and leave because they feel unwelcome. I had a big surprise in how Communion is now served in the Catholic Church...parishoners never received the chalice before. I make an extra effort when I serve Communion in the 'olde ways.' CI Peter
^^^"For whatever reasons, this old Italien Catholic Church seperated from the Diocese and became Episcopal."^^^
Peter,
A little know fact to many, there are two Roman Catholic Churches in
the City of New York, which have seperated from their respective Dioceses,
to maintain their Ethnicity. St. Stanislaus Kostka, Greenpoint, Brooklyn,
was the first to do so with the Diocese of Brooklyn to maintain itself as a Polish Roman Catholic Parish. Now St. Stanisluas B&M on Manhattan East 7th Street, is not a Diocesan parish either to maintain its Polish Roots.
There may be others for ethnic groups, but these two parishes have remained Roman Catholic.
8-) Sparky
You know, this could get serious ... what about ABORTED subway cars and car pairs that managed to get through the gauntlet of a TA anulment? Inquiring car inspectors knead to no. :)
And do nuns sneak out of #2 end cabs to rap the knuckles of motorpeople when they take too big a bite on the handle? Oh, the possibilities of religion as observed by MDBF. The mind numbs at the possibilites. Is it a "coupler of convenience?" Is fast brakes in one car and slow brakes in another "spousal abuse" and is doing a top charge a sin of Onanism? And what about those guard lights?
As a Catholic myself, this whole thing just amuses me. Now. Slap on a fez and see how much of a sense of humor would prevail. It's nice to know God has a sense of humor, or you'd all be rotting in hell. :)
And ... even more important, does schedule AMUE constitute "original sin" or shall we blame "triple valve" for our malfunctions? Are we forgiven if we dump or are we saved by the sacred tripcock? Does a small amount of anticlimber bending on a layup constitute a bris or does it mean we're sent into limbo forever? Or does it mean that we've achieved salvation because Unca Selkirk crunched one for our collective sins and Father Cosgrove gave the car last rites before it got chopped by Naporano?
And what about Naomi? :)
Are you sure you don't mean purgatory and not limbo?
LOL! (Forgive me fadda fa I hav sinned! :)
OH BOY HAVE YOU!!!! (clap of thunder) ... now BOW before the COW! :)
And yo ... ain't seen your sorry butt up here YET before the snow's melted (relax, you've GOT a week or two yet, is 6 below now) ... that'll be six Hail Mary's and a single malt plus a Cohiba ... bend over, darling, we're gonna do it HURRICANE style. :) (Firesign Theatre)
Now about that cutting key ... heh.
For a moment there, I thought you were going to bring up the electric brake plug.:)
The Wrong Man is actually a good film by Alfred Hitchcock. The subway sequence is at the beginning, and since it has R-1/9s, you might like it. The subway is simply portrayed as a vehicle for a working guy to get home during the late hours. There is also a brief shot of a 7 train of R-15s in their original colors going by after Fonda emerges from the IND and walks up the steps to his house.
Yeah, I'll check it out. Got hooked into watching "The Incident" several times because it had LoV's and WF Steinways, a nice mockup of a WF Steinway in which most of the movie was shot, but above all else, it was shot on the Third Avenue El. Mediocre movie, great train shots.
That was one meticulous mockup of 5674. About the only thing I noticed that looked out of the ordinary was the single metal plate "Woodlawn - Jerome Ave." destination sign.
If the Q cars were moving, their kinetic energy would have easily overwhelmed the heavy but stationary SIRT car.
"The cars were also equipped with ceiling fans."
You would figure for a car built in 1925 would have exposed paddle ceiling fans installed, but no, the SIRT/BMT cars received axiflow fans installed in the clerestory area. Wierd but true.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was just watching channel 7 and they were talking about the LIRR's Diesel & C3 Coach Problems and could be caused by ther Weather, they said the Diesel have been having problems on switching from Electric to Diesel and vice versa, and the C3's have braking problems, and the LIRR Commuter Campaign President said that the Diesels have been having problems since 1998 and wasn't weather related, Anybody Care to comment on this?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtark Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
I was just watching channel 7 and they were talking about the LIRR's Diesel & C3 Coach Problems and could be caused by ther Weather, they said the Diesel have been having problems on switching from Electric to Diesel and vice versa, and the C3's have braking problems, and the LIRR Commuter Campaign President said that the Diesels have been having problems since 1998 and wasn't weather related, Anybody Care to comment on this?
Well the dual-mode locomotives have been unreliable right since the beginning. It's a topic that's been discussed here many times. I have not, however, heard of any significant problems with the diesel-only locomotives or the coaches, other than the fact that some of the coaches are starting to show quite a bit of interior wear and tear.
Hmmm, maybe LIRR should of purchased F59PHI locomotives or maybe some P32AC-DM Locomotives like Metro - North.
"Hmmm, maybe LIRR should of purchased F59PHI locomotives or maybe some P32AC-DM Locomotives like Metro - North."
Too late, now they're stuck with them for some 25 or 30 years !
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, looking back at LIRR's diesel locomotive history, as far as the "mainline road power" it's only the GP38-2's that stuck around that long. Everything else lasted around 13-14 years. The C-Liners came in 1950 and lasted until 1963-1964. The Century 420's came in 1963-1964 and lasted (for the most part) until 1976-1977, except for the last eight which stayed on quite a bit longer.
Actually, looking back at LIRR's diesel locomotive history, as far as the "mainline road power" it's only the GP38-2's that stuck around that long.
Damn, do I miss them...... I can't warm up to the DM/DE30's. They are one of the most unattractive engines I know off.
I miss the C420s. Nuthin' sounds like an Alco!
NOW you're talking!!!!!! I grew up with the C-420's -- and can still remember their sound to this day, as well as the plume of smoke whenever one started from a station!!
I have ridden behind C420's when I was a kid, but I was too young, I don't really remember them. I like the way they look in photos though!
the F59phi is only about a foot to high for northeast and its tunnels and overpasses.
These locomotives have been on LIRR property since 1999, and have a 5 year warranty from EMD which also means the one DM30AC #503 which was burned to a crisp from striking a metal shopping cart in Greenlawn causing frame damage is being completely rebuilt. So, don't worry after a few years when the reliability will be better.
Isn't the DM30 and DE30 otherwise known F59PHI-DMAC or something? Really the DE30 really is just an F59PHI with a more plain wrapper, lower clearances and a pepped up engine. The DM30 of course carries the 3rd rail equipment on top of the DE30s engine and such.
The DM30s have had problems, however as I recall, no Dual-Mode has yet to even come close to accomplishing what the DM30s have done, they run in full electric keeping schedule with the MU sets, not even the much flaunted FL9s can claim that. Both the P32DM-AC and the FL9s are diesels first, electrics sometimes, running diesels even when the 3rd rail was available for power, and even when it is required to shut off the diesel, they are restricted to 60mph (in the case of the P32DM-AC). This means that they do not meet the requirements set by the LIRR for a new dual mode, which means that they go shopping for a custom job, for something that will more readily act as an electric as well as a diesel, and enable 80mph running in electric whenever the 3rd rail is available.
It's too bad that Super Steel Upstate royally screwwed up the order, resulting in fires and such. The DM30 really could have been a great locomotive, but now they'll undoubtedly have a stigma over their early years with the fires and breakdowns. If anything, hopefully the DM30s will be fully fixed and be able to live up to their potential.
What the @#$$#@$$%(%^!!! The DM's were never called a F59PHI at all.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
DE/DM-30AC's were also called F59PH to my knowledge....F59PHI, I don't think so.
No, the DE/DM 30's are NOT like the F59PHI's.
The F59PHI's have a 3200 horsepower engine for propulsion, and a separate engine (either a Detroit 12V149 or Cummins, depending on customer choice) for the Head End Power.
Well anyone would be insane to go with anything other than good old Detroit. :-0
Oh, I dunno about that. Metrolink HAD the 12V149's in their original bunch of F59's out here in Southern California. The F59PHI's came with the Cummins engines, and as the original 23 F59's are being rehabbed, they are being replaced with Cummins HEP engines.
I'm not a big fan of Cummins myself....
Cummins is not bad with speed, but the reliability is much less than Detroit diesel products.
Thats why when LI Bus ordered its newer batch of Orion V CNG's, they went with the Detroit Series 50G instead. Now if only they could repower that Cummins garbage.
They can maintain near MU schedules with 20% fewer seats. They need a loco per 4 cars and E mode to do it.
IMHO, the LIRR was stupid to even bother replacing the diesel fleet. They should have electrified Port Jeff, to Patchague, Oyster Bay to Glen Cove (Actually, I'd just cut the line there and leave it), replaced the M-1s and demotored a few and ran them as push pulls to fill in the missing parts of the system.
There's no real compelling reason to retain diesel operation on the LIRR and plenty to dump it.
Newsday has some ideas:
http://www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/ny-p2foodmain3146126feb26,0,5091214.story?coll=nyc%2Dent%2Dshort%2Dnavigation
A couple of late items from the Associated Press. The Liebeskind deisgn reportedly has been chosen over the THINK latticework towers as the replacement for the World Trade Center, while the Federal Emergency Management Agency has released a funds distribution list for the $8.8 billion earmarked for the WTC infratructure and related items effort.
From a transit perpective, the interesting thing about the Liberskind design according to the story is the plaza will be sunken 30 feet into the bathtub, which means it there will only be about 1 1/2 to two levels above the PATH tracks in the same area. At the same time, a 30-foot deep plaza means the downtown wall of the IRT Cortlandt St. shell will, in at least some places, be about 15 feet above the area directly to the west.
As for the FEMA plan, the story says the funding for rebuilding transportation in Lower Manhattan is $3.3 billion, which is the first time I've heard that number -- the total before always has been $4.5 billion, though since the story doesn't give a complete accounting,m the other $1.2 billion might be in some other transit-connection category.
Anyway, here's the WTC selection site story:
NEW YORK (AP) - A complex of angular buildings and a 1,776-foot spire designed by architect Daniel Libeskind was chosen as the plan for the World Trade Center site on Wednesday, The Associated Press has learned.
Libeskind's design beat the THINK team's "World Cultural Center" plan, which envisioned two 1,665-foot latticework towers straddling the footprints of the original towers.
The new building is planned to be taller than the trade center towers, which briefly stood as the world's tallest at 1,350 feet. Libeskind's tower also would surpass Malaysia's 1,483-foot Petronas Twin Towers, the tallest buildings in the world.
The choice was made by a committee with representatives of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the governor and the mayor. The committee met briefly on Wednesday afternoon and decided on the plan that was favored by Gov. George Pataki and Mayor Michael Bloomberg, according to a source close to the process.
LMDC Chairman John Whitehead telephoned Libeskind with the news, the source said, telling the architect that his "vision has brought hope and inspiration to a city still recovering from a terrible tragedy."
Libeskind told the chairman that being selected is "a life-changing experience," the source said.
Nine proposals for redeveloping the trade center site, where nearly 2,800 people died Sept. 11, 2001, were unveiled Dec. 18. The design competition was launched after an initial set of plans, released in July, was derided as boring and overstuffed with office space.
Redevelopment officials were scheduled to announce the decision publicly Thursday.
After the two plans were chosen as finalists earlier this month, both teams of architects were asked to revise their designs to make them more easily realized.
Libeskind, whose original design called for a memorial at the trade center foundation 70-feet below ground, reportedly changed that to 30 feet, allowing for infrastructure and transportation underneath.
The LMDC was created by Pataki and former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani after Sept. 11 to oversee the rebuilding of the trade center site and downtown Manhattan. The Port Authority owns the site.
***
Here's the story on the FEMA funding distribution:
***
WASHINGTON (AP) - A final tally of the $8.8 billion in federal emergency funds for New York's post-Sept. 11 recovery includes $260 million to help pay pension benefits to the families of firefighters and police officers killed in the attacks.
The accounting released Wednesday by the Federal Emergency Management Agency details $2.4 billion for debris removal and related work, $500 million for services and counseling to victims and their families, and nearly $3.2 billion to rebuild transportation and infrastructure.
The agency was able to calculate the cost of all its Sept. 11-related programs after Congress passed a spending bill this month giving FEMA greater flexibility in how it distributes some of the aid.
The $8.8 billion is part of more than $20 billion President Bush has pledged for New York.
The survivors of rescue workers killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center towers are entitled to full pensions, and FEMA said Wednesday it would contribute $260 million to help pay those costs.
The attacks killed 343 firefighters, 23 New York Police Department officers and 37 Port Authority police officers.
"Over the past 18 months, the city and state of New York have worked very closely with us to identify critical needs and help rebuild New York," said FEMA director Joe Allbaugh in a statement. "While there has been tremendous effort by FEMA, the city and the state, the real tribute should be made to all New Yorkers for their amazing resolve."
I think it's just a matter of what goes in which account.
In any event, it's good news. And New York needs it, badly.
Nothin is "chosen" until after the 8 ka'gillion lawsuits and injunctions are settled. I predict this to be sometime just short of the 1000th aneversary of the 9/11 attacks.
I find it horriffic that a GERMAN firm was one whose final design was chosen (ah America, home of Lip Service Patriotism and flags made in China).
Second, it will not have the world's tallest "building". A spire is not a "building" it is a "structure". Nobody really cares that the CN tower is the world's tallest freestanding structure, heck, you can even go to the top. Its those darn towers in Malaysia that get all the credit. To have a real Trophy Building you need a full sized tower with a restaurant and obsevation deck (or an ariship docking station/helipad) on the top and millions of sq ft of office space.
Do you know what's worse that having a building that provides surplus usable space? Having no space at all. NYC already has a useless symbolic tourist trap, its built on an old fort out in the bay. Does NYC stand for legitimate productivity or sham tourism?
Whoops, never mind that German bit. I was misinformed by local Hartford news.
Why is it so horrifying that a 'German' firm was chosen? It's good that the designers didn't just pick some underqualified ugly-ass SOM design, just cause they're an American firm.
I would have prefered a much taller (2,000+ ft) singular tower that would fill the whole gap left by the twin towers. We don't need super-expensive replicas, any such building would be a complete abortion of design. We need need to move ahead and build something that would assert our power for a change. Also that would pretty well knock down any Petronas-Towers-wannabes for a while.
BTW, The Sears Tower is taller than the Petronas towers in all areas except the one that counts, tallest structural member. The Sears tower has higher occupied floors, more floors (110 vs 88), and it's antenne (tell me those aren't structures in their own right) wind up MUCH taller than the top of the Petronas Towers. It's just that one damn truss holding up the Spire happens to be just slightly above the highest truss in the Sears Tower, so the Petronas Towers are suddenly the tallest buildings in the world, by a hair.
I guess I'll have to settle for a shorter, more flash than substance, spire-using tower to fill the gap. Anything would have been better than that THINK design!
They need to go and weld some structural I-Beams on top of the ST, put it back on top if the differance really is that strong.
I felt that the WTC was a perfect example of American power. The design had no fancy engieering what so ever. No big trusses, no circles or triangles, just two 1,300 foot tubes that maximized the available floorspace. The coolest thing was that their "absence of design" was a totally unique and creative design in and of itself. Crap happens for two reasons, an effort to be cheap and an effort to be too creative. The WTC was great because it didn't try hard.
I felt that the WTC was a perfect example of American power.
So did 15 terrorists on 9/11/01.
I beg to differ. The THINK design was awesome! At least, it was kind of like the WTC. 2 Towers, and the white, light and airy look they project was heavenly for me.
Rethinking what I said earlier, I kind of like Libeskind's design as well. I don't know why, I have a tendency to change quickly like that. Maybe it's the spire. Ooh, that sends shivers down my spine!
"NYC already has a useless symbolic tourist trap, its built on an old fort out in the bay."
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Tell me one thing that the SoL generates besides tourist dollars?
If you want NYC to have its even more based on the incredibly fickle tourism market, so be it. I prefer something with a more solid foundation.
So thios new "spire" for the site...is this something that people will be able to go up on? Or are people stuck visiting something 30 feet below the surface only?
I'm sure you'll be able to go up to some point of it. It'll be a cross b/t the Washington Monument and the CN tower.
...the other $1.2 billion might be in some other transit-connection category.
Hmmmm. According to its president, our national passenger railroad needs exaclty that much to remain in operation this fiscal year...
:O)
7046-50 and 7131-35 are burn testing for 5 service. This should be the final set to enter service on that line. Widecab5 was right. I was mistaken about 7046-50 already being in service. It's hard to keep up with this sometimes...
#5 Assignments should be like this when the last set enters service.
6701-6805 (105 Cars)
6816-75 (60 Cars)
6896-6900 (5 Cars)
6906-20 (15 Cars)
6926-30 (5 Cars)
6936-45 (10 Cars)
6951-60 (10 Cars)
6971-80 (10 Cars)
6991-7140 (150 Cars)
Total Is 370 Cars.
As Cars Enter Service On the 4:
1101-1250 (150 Cars)
6806-15 (10 Cars)
6876-95 (20 Cars)
6901-05 (5 Cars)
6921-25 (5 Cars)
6931-35 (5 Cars)
6946-50 (5 Cars)
6961-70 (10 Cars)
6981-90 (10 Cars)
7141-80 (40 Cars)
Total is 260 Cars, which only makes up a portion of the fleet. This will change after all cars enter service. R-142s would be regrouped as they had been when the 2 and 5 traded off R-142s.
The final assignement (unless this changes) should be 6701-7070 to the 5, 1101-1250 and 7071-7180 to the 4.
-Stef
And what is supposed to happen to the current R142A's that are on the 4 now?I believe the 4 is gonna have the 142A's otherwise they wouldn't be there right now.
The 4 will have a R142/A mixed fleet. There will be no more R142A's coming in.
Thank God! R142A's are worse than the R142s in that they break much faster.
What!? I think it's the other way around.The R142's break down quicker than the 142A's.I dunno bout you but I have not once heard anything bad happen with those Kawasaki made 142A's.
They had some brake problems, but only during the first few months or so.
BOMBARDIER R142 MDBF: 61978MI (12 Months Ending 12/2001)
KAWASAKI R142A MDBF: 45843MI (12 Months Ending 12/2001)
A lot's changed since December 2001.
Bombardier R142 trainsets have a 'supermarket list' for vendors to investigate, repair or upgrade. The warranty period is winding down and TA management/engineering is pushing to get as much done as possible. Once the warranty is expired, choice of repairs will be costing TA to have the work done OR have Car Inspectors do the work when the parts become available to us. The vendors do not appear to be very cooperative so as to preserve their work and employment. We learn our work firsthand during inspection and TA has experienced personel.......significant emnployment opportunities for experienced Car Inspectors who should not be lost to 'overhaul shops.'
As I was saying, the BBD R-142s are only a portion of the assignment. The 70 R-142As aren't going anywhere to the best of my knowledge, unless someone decides to change car assignments all together. 260 R-142s and 55 R-62As will replace the 315 KHI R-62s going to the 3. While the 55 R-62As go to the 4, the remainder of the Livonia R-62As will be transferred to Corona.
Assignments Are Subject To Change.
-Stef
Why are the R62A's necessary, if the 4 already has 70 R142A's?
at least 5 sets are needed to retire the remaining Redbirds (there were 108 cars, of which some have already been removed: 8836-8857, 9216-9223, 9226-9305; 8856-7 replaced 9236-7 when that pair was reefed at the end of 2001).
thanks!
There aren't enough cars to meet service demands, which will make the R-62As necessary.
260 R-142s and 55 R-62As will replace 315 R-62s sent to the 3.
-Stef
Thanks!
You're welcome!
-Stef
So the R-62s will be leaving the 4. That's the only line they've ever run on, except for the few that ran tests on the 7 in 1984, right?
R-62s have been part of the #4 fleet since 1983. They've made test runs on the #2 and #7 routes. The R-62s made a few guest appearances on other lines, particularly during GOs.
-Stef
Have they determined which R62A will be going to the #4?
wayne
There is no information on that at this point. I can only assume that since cars being sent to the 7 are starting from 2155 and working upward, it would be Cars 1901-1956. The cars in this group have transverse cabs.
-Stef
The Birds' are still and well on the 5. The question would seem to be is what will happen to the remaining R-33s as the last R-142 set enters service on the 5? One such possibility would be to put them in work service.
-Stef
I have a better idea: send them back home to the 2 and put the 2's R-142's in work service. (Let them blather off their two-year-old outdated announcements where the passengers won't get confused.)
I can dream, can't I?
You're a good man! But seriously, those cars will see service on an as needed basis. They're not toast yet! Heh.
-Stef
Why should we 2 line riders have to get them back? Put Redbirds on the 1 or 3 if you like, but keep them the hell away from the 2.
The 'Birds could be bounced around, and be used wherever needed.
-Stef
bringing them back to the (2) will also revive the 2/5 interline, the off peak <5> running on upper WPR
Let me ask you this, what's to stop them from using an R-142 for interline service? What is the difference?
-Stef
announcements would be wrong "this is a Nereid Av bound 5 EXPRESS train" when it is running local, strip map difficulties(the 2 strip map on an off peak 5, would ruin the moment), BRONX EXPRESS on a local <5> train, yeah r-33, r-36, or r-62 (or r-62a) would work better. Note this is no normal interline, it should be treated specially and a redbird would be something good for this special train.
Too bad the 1 and 5 couldn't resume that interline that had r-62s terminating at E 180 St then running lite to 239 St. Although a 9 train could run to New Lots and become a 5(and reverse in the PM)
Not really. I rode a 5 from Burke Avenue this morning and the train announced itself as a local (thru express service is suspended). I'm pretty sure it could do the same in the uptown direction.
R142s numbering from 6301 to 6700 frequently show up on the 5 and R142s from 6701 to 7100 or so seem to make quite a few appearances on the 2. So it can be done.
How about giving them to the 7? The 7's own Redbirds are in even worse condition.
That is definitely true. But I'm sure 7 riders would like newer cars too after so many years of rusty old cars.
Because the 2 is their home turf. When was the last time you saw a redbird on the 1 or 3?
Come on, haven't you grown tired of the same exact voice announcing the stops in the Bronx the same exact way every single time? I used to find that run interesting but now I dread it -- it just seems to drag on forever. Could it hurt to occasionally have a human make those announcements from time to time? With comfortable seats and a real railfan window?
I miss the human voices. Each conductor had his/her own style. I remember each day on the L, I would hope for one particular conductor, and was sorry when I was running late and would miss his train. He had a very disctinctive sooothing voice. "This is (pause) LAHRRimer STreet.....next stop (pause) Grommmm AHhhhvenue.....Stohhhnnnnd clear of the closing doors." He did it musically almost (but it was his real voice).
If I remember correctly, he was (well 10 years ago) a middle-aged African-American with a goatee. Who knows if he's still even working....sigh, now just pushin buttons on the boring R143's.
Is there anything that would preclude a C/R from shutting off the pre-recorded announcements and using his own voice to announce the stations and connections? (i.e. a work rule). I know if I were running a Vulture (either division) I'd look to shut off the canned blather and make my own announcements.
wayne
Yes, except where the automated announcements are incorrect, they must be allowed to play.
Those are all railfan pipe dreams, nothing in the eyes of the MTA. The new trains are just fine. Besides, on the issue of annoucements, what happens if isn't clear? I've had many encounters with C/R's who can't speak well or clearly enough, which is simply unacceptable in today's world. You want clear and good announcments which the automatic ones do.
They're clear? That only makes it worse. The announcements on the 2 and 6 are 19 months out of date. The announcements on the 4 and 5 are 5 months out of date. And everybody can hear them, and everybody can get lost. The late night 2 still announces and signs itself as an express, even though it's been a local since 1999 or so -- and I've seen people jump off to wait for a local. Correctness is more critical than clarity -- and correctness is especially critical in the presence of clarity.
Some C/R's give extra information, like where each line goes or how to reach them. The automated announcements blurt out a flat list of letters and numbers. Not very useful. Compare: "THIS is FourTEENTH Street-UNion SQUARE. TRANSfer is aVAIlable to the (pause) 4 (pause) 5 (pause) L (pause) N (pause) and (pause) R (pause) trains." vs. "14th Street-Union Square. Transfer to the 4 and 5 express across the platform or to the L, Q, R, and W trains on the upper level."
Human C/R's can time their announcements appropriately. The computer speaks slowly no matter what. Many off-peak announcements are cut off mid-sentence, since they just take too long. "THIS is a BROOKlyn-bound 2 exPRESS train. The NEXT stop is (pause) CENTral Park NORTH-One Hundred TENTH Street.
But they're loud. They have to be loud to be heard over the obnoxiously noisy fans. Yes, they're relatively quiet inside, but to the people standing on the platform, they're the noisiest cars in the fleet.
And I don't see why you consider comfortable seats a railfan pipe dream. I don't fit the R-142 seats and I've seen others squirm for comfort. What was wrong with the shape of the redbird seats?
some 2 and 6 trains are updated like the 6 trains that spell out completely BROOKLYN BRIDGE (instead of BKLYN BRIDGE) AND PELHAM BAY PARK (instead OF PELHAM BAY PK) and the 2 trains that say WAKEFIELD-241 ST (instead of WAKEFIELD-241)
AFAIK, none of the trains assigned to the 2 have been updated yet. Some of the 5's R-142's float over to the 2 from time to time.
I'm glad the gratuitous abbreviations are being eliminated. Somebody needs to fix the R-46's now.
one announcement that the (4) train is missing "This is Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street"
That's because the name of the street is Bedford Park Boulevard, not 200th Street.
I wasn't specific enough in what I said earlier,... oh well. Comfortable seats are of course not pipe dreams, and GreatOne already explained the annoucements. I am perfectly fine with the seating and perhaps, just perhaps, you happen to be the odd way out with these seats. To be honest, I really don't know what they based the new seat design on. Why don't you take some time and email the MTA? You may get an answer.
I am perfectly fine with the seating and perhaps, just perhaps, you happen to be the odd way out with these seats.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. They're not just a little bit uncomfortable -- they jab me in the back and force me to slouch. I've seen others squirm in the seats, so I don't think it's just me. Besides, no other seat has ever jabbed me in the back. The design of the seat is obviously peculiar.
To be honest, I really don't know what they based the new seat design on. Why don't you take some time and email the MTA? You may get an answer.
Email the MTA? Do you have an email address?
Well, I was basing my recommendation from Ron. Write them instead and tell me what you get.
rode a 'bird' on the 5 saturday..had one hell of a wheel flat..had to change cars for a quieter ride..i guess repairs to these trucks is a non-issue now..i didn't get the car#
Says who? They could be just fine on another line, but not the 2 or 5 which are neglected enough as it is.
They could always shut the announcements off. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they did. But you can still see out the front of the train. At least there's still a window to look out of. We're not in Montreal or Sao Paulo or most European cities, where riders are stuck with a completely solid wall separating the cab. They never had a railfan window to begin with. I don't hear them complaining about it. We've been spoiled by the railfan window here in New York. Ask someone in London how the view out the peephole in the cab door on a Tube train is. I'm sure a London train buff would take the R142's large cab window over the Underground's peephole any day. And that's if the Tube train driver doesn't catch you looking into the peephole.
Oh, and Redbird seats weren't all that comfortable anyway. The R142s seats are not an improvement, but I never found Redbird seats to be particularly comfortable.
Ahh, the days of 100% redbird 2's and 5's.
I saw Redbirds being used as propulsion units on the garbage trains during the summer last year. Might that still be done? They could also be used as money collection trains and replace some of the older rider cars.
That may be in the plans. There are reports I'm hearing that a Redbird Pair is in the process of being converted to work service and is at Coney Island Yard for the conversion. Exactly what the pair will be after the conversion is done is unknown to me at this point. The R-33 pair in question could be a new Money Train.
-Stef
"The R-33 pair in question could be a new Money Train."
I thought money trains were to be defunct having amoured trucks as their replacement.
Bill "Newkirk"
Money Trains haven't disappeared off the map as of yet. I don't know for sure what that Redbird Pair was being converted to.....
-Stef
Budget cuts ... they'll be riding the bags around on Harleys. :)
go go go !! ..............keep tha railfan window !!
( maybe a quck trip to see em this summer ) !!
Let's hope so....
-Stef
yep ! one mo' - ride on a bird would make my day , any day
Okay, I'll admit it. My knowledge of the transit system has never included knowing about the specific car types beyond knowing the general shapes of the different cars. Not that I wasn't aware of the differences; just that keeping track of them didn't catch my fancy. Although by reading Subtalk after a while a little more data has managed to slip into my head.
Anyway, I'd have to say that the best front-of-the-train window I've ever known was the one that was a circular window. You could open it up for half the circle and really get the sounds and smells of the ride. I remember these trains being on the Seventh Avenue trains. It was a standard door but with the porthole window. I wouldn't know the number of the car type but I'll never forget that window.
Hmmm, I would probably say the R40 Slants, because you can still get a good view, even if you are standing a few feet from it.
You know its coming... SLANTS!
Best railfan window and STILL best seats!
i would say the same too,my fav is the R42,room for 2 people and looks
cool too.
til next time
The first three double seats on the Philly El are marvelous! You have a large front window to look through , which is still a good view from the second or third row.
Chuck Greene
"The first three double seats on the Philly El are marvelous! You have a large front window to look through , which is still a good view from the second or third row."
Ditto for PATCO (on the opposite side !)
Bill "Newkirk"
The first three double seats on the Philly El are marvelous! You have a large front window to look through , which is still a good view from the second or third row.
I got this shot from the second seat on Presidents Day (last week). A railfan couple, each with his/her own camera, occupied the front seat.
Wow, what a shot! Were you railfanning all day on your "snow day" off? Lucky you, I was shoveling sh** , whoops , I mean snow.
Chuck Greene
Yo Chuck!
We share a driveway with our next door neighbor, so with three shovels and one blower, plus another blower from across the street helping out, we got finished in time for me to get over to Philly for a couple hours for some SEPTA snow shots. While on the el, I noticed that the subway-surface was running, so I rode a #34 to 43rd & Baltimore and then walked back to 40th & Woodland.
Okay I hear that, with that big front window. I'm not trying to start a thing here but thinking about it, an open window facing directly forward with nothing in front of your face but the air and metal dust blowing by....that has to beat even a floor to ceiling window. Unless I'm remembering this incorrectly. Do you know what type of subway car that was, with the openable porthole window?
R-15s, 16s and 17s all had openable round windows. So, too did the R-11s (as R-34). R-21/22s had square drop sashes, as I mentioned earlier. :-)
Cool, thanks.
The BMT standards and Triplexes also had drop sash storm door windows,
My vote goes to the slants for the best railfan window. Interestingly enough, Denver's LRVs have an equally long window in the cab door, and it's never blocked. You can look ahead through it as much as you want and the T/Os don't mind.
you could be talking about the R15 they had circle windows.
til next time
"You know its coming... SLANTS! Best railfan window and STILL best seats!"
The railfan window on the slants were great for a four year old child because they were low. But they were narrow enough for one railfan. The Railfan window on a R-26 to R-42 (R-40mod only) is the best for twofers. If you say the seats on the slants are STILL the best, then I know you're kidding.
Bill "Newkirk"
No joke at all there.
The best subway seating in New York had to be the cross seating on the ARNINES for their high backs. R-10, 11, 16 would come in second place. The BMT Standards and Triplexs would tie for second place. These would be for cushion and not fiberglass seats.
You're the only one who raves about the seating on the R-40 slants and modifieds. For fiberglass seating the best is still the R-26 to R-38. In fact this seating is more comfortable than the ones on the R-142/143's ! They seem to be lower than the Redbirds.
The fiberglass seating to replace any cushion seating (R-7 to R-22) was uncomfortable at best. And let's not get started on the small butt R44-68 seating !
Your thoughts.
Bill "Newkirk"
The railfan window on the slants were great for a four year old child because they were low. But they were narrow enough for one railfan. The Railfan window on a R-26 to R-42 (R-40mod only) is the best for twofers.
Agreed, but I think that's heresy in these parts. Actually, the R-44, R-46, and R-68(A) have huge railfan windows, but at the wrong end of the car. (I'm afraid I never experienced the days of the R-68 singles.)
For side-by-side railfanning, redbirds are the best, since one railfan can hold the door handle and the other can swing on a strap. R-62A's aren't terrible (though the door handle is a bit low), but the others leave little for the second railfan to hold onto. R-32's are especially bad -- the nearest handrail is a joke.
If you say the seats on the slants are STILL the best, then I know you're kidding.
No, that's really how he feels. I still can't decide which seats are worse, R-40 or R-142(A)/143, but I'm tempted to say the latter, if nothing else because soon that shape of seat (which clashes with the shape of my back) will predominate the fleet. Give me a redbird/R-32/R-38 seat any day.
If you say the seats on the slants are STILL the best, then I know you're kidding.
LOL, no, Tony has mentioned many times he actually likes the R40 seats. He is probably in the group of about 1% that does.
Trying to get the railfan window of an R-40 slant on a future "Farewell to the Slant-40s" should fun to watch :)
--mark
My two choices:
R-1/9's BIG RFW's, and
R-21/22s RFW's that had drop sashes all the way across the window. There was one R-21 that had a one piece drop sash window and a green interior. In the under-river tubes the rush of air was a BLAST!
The R-1s and R-4s had one large glass pane on their storm doors and yes, it was great to look through it.
The drop sash front windows in the R21s and 22s played a pivotal part in PELHAM 123 (Lord spare us another protracted thread about THAT!), because it was perfect for a hijacker to stick the barrel of a machine gun through the lower half and then slam it shut dramatically. If he'd shot through the one-piece front window of an R28 through 36, which were very common on the 6- R21s and 22s seldom, if ever, ran on that line- he'd be cut down by flying glass.
Nobody's mentioned PATH, which has a very generous front window for standees, and an additional front window on the left that you can look through while sitting!
The front windows on the M1s through 6s are almost as low as the Slants, but it can be difficult to get an LIRR or MN train with an open front car off-peak. And oftentimes the engineer keeps his door open to chat with the crew, hence blocking the front window off. But when you DO get it, the high express speeds (particularly on the Main Line, Babylon, East River tubes, New Haven, and any MN into the 97th Street portal) make it a very rewarding experience.
I remember once taking a train from Gibson on the Far Rock. branch one night. At one point when the train was curving over the el connection to the Babylon Branch, I was standing in the last car and the lights were off. I got a perfect view of a long diesel express heading east as it zoomed past Valley Stream. The express was just flying down the tracks.
The circular window sounds like R-16s or even R-11s; I forget whether R-15 and R-17 windows opened.
My favorites were BMT Standards and Triplexes, because you could drop the upper half of the window and there was enough room to rest both upper arms on the window while all the crud and steel dust in the tunnels filled your nostrils and made your face look like you were wearing dark make-up under your eyes.
Outdoors could be a lot of fun. A Brighton Express with Triplexes was a great outdoors run. And you could tell by the smell on any West End or Sea Beach that you were approaching Coney Island Creek. Coney Island odors drifted up to Stillwell Avenue station, too.
Standing at the open window on the Manhattan Bridge let you really smell the Brillo factory; I think there was a bakery on the Brooklyn side of the Bridge, but I forget the name.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
"My favorites were BMT Standards and Triplexes, because you could drop the upper half of the window and there was enough room to rest both upper arms on the window while all the crud and steel dust in the tunnels filled your nostrils and made your face look like you were wearing dark make-up under your eyes."
Of the pre-war cars, I agree with both your choices. Any open railfan window was always the best. I do remember when they would bend the brass window latches, preventing opening of the window. I used to bypass that by using my house key to move the latch and pull the window down, one side at a time until the entire window was open. This used to take a few minutes, but it was worth it.
Bill "Newkirk"
"My favorites were BMT Standards and Triplexes, because you could drop the upper half of the window and there was enough room to rest both upper arms on the window while all the crud and steel dust in the tunnels filled your nostrils and made your face look like you were wearing dark make-up under your eyes."
Of the pre-war cars, I agree with both your choices. Any open railfan window was always the best. I do remember when they would bend the brass window latches, preventing opening of the window. I used to bypass that by using my house key to move the latch and pull the window down, one side at a time until the entire window was open. This used to take a few minutes, but it was worth it.
Bill "Newkirk"
i am with you on this one adding philly broad street line cars too!
I would have to say the R32 and R38's have the best railfan window in my opinion.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
..........add this to the mix .......
Best Railfan Window-r21-22.. !! rock & roll is here 2 stay !!
The best RFW is either the one on the BUDD/GE/Etc M1/2/3/4/6 or the PATCO cars. The PATCO cars have both a railfan door and a railfan seat and an open operators position. Its like riding in a big old greenhouse. The M1/2/3/4/6 window is just freakin HUGE, the door is not recessed at all and the M1/2/3/4/6 trains run on lines with 80-90mph operation.
I'd give the R "slant" 40 second place. The Slant 40's one is full length which allows two 'fans to use the glass at once (one kneeling).
Third place goes to the METRA Gallery Cars. Being on commuter rail is nice, but its a bit small and not as comfortable to stand on.
You guys are all insane, New York has some pretty paltry railfan windows. R-whatevers can never even come close to what Philly has going for it right now. PATCO offers a picture window view out the front with running speeds approaching 70mph, the MFL also offers railfan views from seats located right behind the window, no standing or squatting here. Both the Subway Surface Trolleys and the Media-Sharon Hill lines offer great views out the large front windows. Even the BSS, with it's newly minted widecab OPTO offers railfan views under the right conditions (ie the T/O doesn't hang something in front of the railfan window).
You guys need to get out of NY some, experience the many other cities, I swear that the center the universe does not lie on earth, let alone in New York!
Hey Buddyboy!! NYC Subway has some of the best railfan windows in the world, and we have the best subway system in the US!
You Need to get up in NYC and experience some NYC Subway, NY Style!
You see New Yorkers what we have to put up with ????
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
I won't argue with you on the best subway system in the US, NY wins there hands down.
However, you have yet to see the majesty that is the Philly railfan window experience. All the RFWs have seats right in front of them (no squatting before a tiny pane of glass), all the railfan windows are at least 3'X 2', and all the RFWs are not subject to the vagaries of a T/O that decides to ride with the door open (cept the BSS, which has been widecabbed). You are always asking about the speed of the subways, come ride PATCO and do 65-70mph between Broadway-Camden and Ferry Ave Camden, you actually would PASS New Jersey drivers on the adjacent I-676 and Mt Ephraim Rd. The Market Frankford Line does 55+ between 15th St City Hall and 30th St regularly, and the BSS averages over 50 on the express runs in north philly.
I have ridden several NY railfan windows, the 7 TSQ to 74th Continental on an R33 or R36, the 57th-Prospect Park with a Slant 40, the C, Franklin Ave to Utica (where I idiotically changed to an A train to get to ENY *STUPID!* ) with an R32 or 38 (didn't know the difference at the time), and the J, ENY to Chambers St with an R40M (or R42, again I couldn't tell at the time). I must admit that NY can be pretty good for a Railfan ride, what it lack in comfort and view it more than makes up for in what you see out the window, all kinds of amazing crap that a hundred year old subway can collect. Bellmouths to forgotten subway extentions, abandoned trolley terminals, and all sorts of other stuff.
It's too bad we can't get the SEPTA and PATCO rolling stock onto the NYCTA track, I'd love to ride a re-trucked M-4 down the West side or Lex, and the Rockaway line over Jamaica Bay would be particularly impressive from the front seat of a PATCO car (preferably a single unit [cause I like 'em, OK?] Budd, none of this Hawker stuff). Course those cars would driver the T/Os nuts, they'd only have a thin curtain separating themselves from some of the most intense railfans I think I've ever seen, they'd cry themselves to sleep at night, having dreams of R44s, 46s and 68s with full widecabs to keep the Geese at bay.
There is something interesting about PATCO's railfan windows that I've noticed, in addition to the expected camera wielding railfans and the toddlers who run to the front screaming 'Choo-Choo,' it also seems to bring out the closet railfans. Sometimes there will be a very nicely dressed lady sitting up in the front, book lying discarded on her lap, paying rapt attention out the front window as we hum along through Collingswood or somewhere. Other times it's a man in an overcoat, with leather gloves and a shiny brief case, or some retiree, who's just riding with their 'choo choo' screaming grandchild, and sometimes its a PATCO trackworker, who seems to just want to talk to the T/O on the way back to Lindenwold, yet doesn't say a single word the whole ride, just stares out the window. It could be that I'm reading way too much into people who sit at the railfan window seat, but it seems to me that all these people are, at least for a little while, curious about what they see out that window.
"the most intense railfans I've ecer seen"
That's because NYC has the most intense subway system in the world!
That's because NYC has the most intense subway system in the world!
I don't know if "intense" is the right word. About the only things "intense" these days are the the (2) and (3) exp runs in Manhattan and maybe some east side IRT. The rest of the system is interesting and enjoyable, but it would sure be a lot more intense if most trains weren't limited to about 35mph and railfan windows weren't being done away with.
I wouldn't say the world, London, Tokyo, Paris, Moscow and a few others readily pop into mind when it comes to a subway line that is larger, offers more service, and runs more often. NY is definitely the best subway system in the world (provided that you don't use he cleanlyness of a system as part of the rubric), but there is little really exciting about the speed it achieves, and there are gaping hole in it's coverage area (supposedly the four boroughs), with a severe disparity between areas with adequate coverage and those areas that are devoid of service. Add to that that no major trunk line has been built on the NYCTA lines in the city center for one heck of a long time (outside 63rd St connector), and the defunding, stagnation, and graffiti of the '70s. NY comes up looking pretty pathetic next to some European and Asian city that have truely maintained their subways throughout the life of the lines.
Listen, I wouldn't trade NY's system in for any of the other systems I have ridden, not even this railfan window view:
Don't keep us in suspense, are you going to tell us where that picture is from? Rio?
For me the most spectacular railfan window is on the Pikes Peak Cog Railway - it would be difficult for NYC to replicate that scenery however great its trains were!
And back home in London, the driverless trains on the Docklands Light Railway provide four railfan seats right across the front of the train.
Don't keep us in suspense, are you going to tell us where that picture is from?
That's the view from the Powell-Hyde Cable car route in San Francisco, with Alcatraz off looming in the distance. The view from the cable car lines are not too be beaten. ANd of course riding on the running boards is great too. San Francisco is a very railfan friendly (and busfan too) city with all the cable cars, PCC's, Light Rail, electric trackless buses, etc.
Although I'm not particular fan of the BART system. It's pure commuter monotony (good system), but not the greatest railfan route.
"Don't keep us in suspense, are you going to tell us where that picture is from?
That's the view from the Powell-Hyde Cable car route in San Francisco."
Of course - I should have recognised it. And to your list of public transit modes you can add the Caltrain and ferries too.
Of course - I should have recognised it. And to your list of public transit modes you can add the Caltrain and ferries too.
--Not to mention also, Amtrak and lots of freight (nearby on the other side of the bay).
California in general has great rail transportation. I was just in southern California recently, and San Diego and Los Angeles is great with it's Coaster route (San Diego), Amtrak, MetroLink, freight, trollies, etc. The stations are for the most part immaculate. And the Pacific Coast route is the most scenic I have ever seen!
>>> the Pacific Coast route is the most scenic I have ever seen! <<<
I will agree that it is a great route, but you must someday take the Copper Canyon train from Los Mochis to Chihuahua in Mexico. Every rail fan who appreciates scenery should consider it a sacred duty to make a hajj to this railroad at least once in his lifetime.
Tom
That's the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad at Walt Disney World, Florida :)
--Mark
You mean this......
a sony image station pic ? i did not know they allowed uploads !
most websites block this kind of stuff
It won't let it be displayed remotely any larger than this photo, that's the only drawback, so anytime I put a photo in a post, it will only be this big, it won't allow the full sized image to display. But it's good enough for me, and it lets me post some photos sometimes on subtalk. That's more than webshots, or some of the other photo sites allow.
yea, webshots BLOCK uploads and yahoo photos too
nice to know sony is not doing that
K
now i know where to go ! ..................thankz ..........
maybe lycos allows uploads as well .........
[Best Railfan Window]
Most likely NOT to be found in heypaul's apartment...
Don't hold your breath...:)
Current, NYC, any window that you can see out of is good for me, i.e.
Red Birds, R-32, R-38, Slants.
Past, NYC, the circular window of which you speak is only available at two locations: Branford = R-17; Kingston = R-16, unpowered, :-(
Out-of-town: Boston, Philly (SEPTA/PATCO) & PATH all are mighty fine, many includes seats with the a view !
For NY I would have to say the R1's - R9's. Nice and wide and low enough for kids.
2nd place I would call a tie between the CTA & Path.
r21 -22
Best RF window currently: Slant R40, and the view of the "Q" and "N" lines is worth the trip.
Honorable mention goes to the R21 and R22, with their dropdown sash windows, I used to love to get one on the #5 and I'd drop the sash just as we'd leave 138th St-Mott Haven and the window would be open as we went squealing and screaming around the jughandle. I annoyed the heck out of more than one carful of passengers doing that. Last time I got a chance to do that was in 1988 when the R21 were doing their swan song on the #5.
wayne
Any car without a full-width cab is good. M.U.'s on Metro-North and LIRR are cool, too. Best railfan window I ever had was on NJ Transit Arrow III MU from Penn Station to Long Branch. Had the hook up because I knew the engineer and conductor on the train at that time. If the North Jersey Coast Line had all high level platforms, and Metro-North M2, M4, and M6 mu's had a chance to run to Long Branch, that would be the ultimate of railfan window trips.
Are there problems with the M-7 since the LIRR doesn't seem to say much about them?
I've heard of two problems. The one that has been 'confirmed' has to do with the suspension of the cars. I'm told that the yaw-dampers are being replaced on all cars delived to date. The problem seems to be excess lateral movement at high speed or low speed depending on which source I believe.
The other comes from a trainbuff who befriended me recently. He says that he's heard that the LIRR is having trouble with power-draw on trains in excess of 6-cars. While no one that I know from the LIRR has confirmed this, I've yet to see the LIRR run more that 6 cars in any consist in revenue service. Of course, the LIRR had a similar problem when they brought the M-3s on line.
". The problem seems to be excess lateral movement at high speed or low speed depending on which source."
The two times I rode the M-7's, I noticed a side to side rocking motion. Is that the same as lateral movement ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Side to side motion is the same as excess lateral motion.
the 5:45 babylon from fba had an 8 car m-7 consist last night
the M-7's rock more than a roller coaster as they go on the atlantic av elevated and are even more violent on the speed trip from ENY to jamaica
BTW, Whats the Maximum speed between ENY and Jamaica?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
(BTW, Whats the Maximum speed between ENY and Jamaica?)
85 mph
I think it's just a matter of what goes in which account.
In any event, it's good news. And New York needs it, badly.
Nothin is "chosen" until after the 8 ka'gillion lawsuits and injunctions are settled. I predict this to be sometime just short of the 1000th aneversary of the 9/11 attacks.
I find it horriffic that a GERMAN firm was one whose final design was chosen (ah America, home of Lip Service Patriotism and flags made in China).
Second, it will not have the world's tallest "building". A spire is not a "building" it is a "structure". Nobody really cares that the CN tower is the world's tallest freestanding structure, heck, you can even go to the top. Its those darn towers in Malaysia that get all the credit. To have a real Trophy Building you need a full sized tower with a restaurant and obsevation deck (or an ariship docking station/helipad) on the top and millions of sq ft of office space.
Do you know what's worse that having a building that provides surplus usable space? Having no space at all. NYC already has a useless symbolic tourist trap, its built on an old fort out in the bay. Does NYC stand for legitimate productivity or sham tourism?
Whoops, never mind that German bit. I was misinformed by local Hartford news.
Why is it so horrifying that a 'German' firm was chosen? It's good that the designers didn't just pick some underqualified ugly-ass SOM design, just cause they're an American firm.
I would have prefered a much taller (2,000+ ft) singular tower that would fill the whole gap left by the twin towers. We don't need super-expensive replicas, any such building would be a complete abortion of design. We need need to move ahead and build something that would assert our power for a change. Also that would pretty well knock down any Petronas-Towers-wannabes for a while.
BTW, The Sears Tower is taller than the Petronas towers in all areas except the one that counts, tallest structural member. The Sears tower has higher occupied floors, more floors (110 vs 88), and it's antenne (tell me those aren't structures in their own right) wind up MUCH taller than the top of the Petronas Towers. It's just that one damn truss holding up the Spire happens to be just slightly above the highest truss in the Sears Tower, so the Petronas Towers are suddenly the tallest buildings in the world, by a hair.
I guess I'll have to settle for a shorter, more flash than substance, spire-using tower to fill the gap. Anything would have been better than that THINK design!
They need to go and weld some structural I-Beams on top of the ST, put it back on top if the differance really is that strong.
I felt that the WTC was a perfect example of American power. The design had no fancy engieering what so ever. No big trusses, no circles or triangles, just two 1,300 foot tubes that maximized the available floorspace. The coolest thing was that their "absence of design" was a totally unique and creative design in and of itself. Crap happens for two reasons, an effort to be cheap and an effort to be too creative. The WTC was great because it didn't try hard.
I felt that the WTC was a perfect example of American power.
So did 15 terrorists on 9/11/01.
I beg to differ. The THINK design was awesome! At least, it was kind of like the WTC. 2 Towers, and the white, light and airy look they project was heavenly for me.
Rethinking what I said earlier, I kind of like Libeskind's design as well. I don't know why, I have a tendency to change quickly like that. Maybe it's the spire. Ooh, that sends shivers down my spine!
"NYC already has a useless symbolic tourist trap, its built on an old fort out in the bay."
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Tell me one thing that the SoL generates besides tourist dollars?
If you want NYC to have its even more based on the incredibly fickle tourism market, so be it. I prefer something with a more solid foundation.
So thios new "spire" for the site...is this something that people will be able to go up on? Or are people stuck visiting something 30 feet below the surface only?
I'm sure you'll be able to go up to some point of it. It'll be a cross b/t the Washington Monument and the CN tower.
What is the purpose of the 3 section weekend "L" GO. Normal service from Rock. Pkwy to Bedford. One track shuttle to Union Square (skipping both 1st and 3rd Ave.s (what are they doing that will prevent 1st and 3rd Ave. stops except for decreasing wait time?, and then a third shuttle between Union Sq. and 8th Ave. Do they not want to pay for a tower operator at 3rd Ave.
Two part GO, 2 trains each leave at the same time (Bedford/8th Ave., S/B waits for arriving NB (either track) at Union Sq., then tower operator switches S/B to appropriate track to continue into Bedford.
Wow! thats really alot of transfer and waiting
I'm remember the three J GO few months ago, where J run between 3 sections
Chamber and Canal
Canal and Essex
Essex and Jamaica
The work area is just west ("north") of 3rd Avenue, at the interlocking. That's where you'd need to switch SB trains according to your plan. Can't be done.
AFAIK, the only reason those two stations are bypassed is to keep the headway down to 15 minutes.
Interesting article.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0203/27marta.html
No more stank-ass carpet!!!! YAY!
From what I heard in an eariler article about the rehabs, the Hitachis were going to be rebuilt first, THEN the Franco-Belges (the 24 year old cars mentioned). It would make more sense to rehab the Francos first, since they are the oldest, the Hitachis are getting to be only around 15 years old. I hope this is really the case.
You should hear the unrehabbed Francos, they sound like complete shit right now. I hope they are going to put the Breda's A/V system that annouces and displays the destination.
Do any Subtalkers know where in New York Alstom will rebuild the cars? If you know, I expect some photos of them when they are up there. Maybe they could test the cars somewhere in the MTA :-)
I know that I am definately not an everyday rider of MARTA, but I'm sorry, I am going to miss the old MARTA scheme-including the carpets. I have always thought of MARTA as one of the clasiest train systems around.
Maybe it's because I'm from NY, but I never could see what was the problem with MARTA's equipment. I find MARTA cars (older ones only) among some of the smoothest I have riden.
As far as the new MARTA trains, I found them similar to the R142As we have in NY-which I am not to fond of. By similar, I mean the interior colors, the sound and the ride quality.
Granted I havent rode the new trains in MARTA since 2001, so maybe MARTA has improved the qualities of these new cars. But when I did ride them, I was not impressed at all.
As a personal question to you Rob, could you please tell me all that you don't like about the current MARTA equipment? I'm just curious of your input.
Thanks for your time. Your answer is greatly appreciated.
Most people overlook MARTA when talking about subways, it's nice to hear that you like our system.
All of our cars ARE pretty smooth, especially compared to NYCT, but if you are a regular rider, you can tell the difference in ride quality between the new Bredas and the two older models. Just like how some of you NYers can tell the difference in sounds between the NYCT's different equipment.
I love MARTA, everything about it. There's not anything I *really* dislike about MARTA's equipment. I grew up with the current scheme, so I'll miss it once it's gone. Of the Franco cars that didn't get a minor facelift in the early 90's (about 20 of 120 got some interior and mechanical imporvments), the interiors and getting very worn out. The Hitachis' interiors are the same as the Francos' but they look in mcuh better shape. The carpet on both models holds in some rank funk sometimes, and the new carpetless Bredas don't and won't have that problem. The Francos without the facelift also sound awful when idle and accelerating, kind of like a subway version of a bad engine belt on an auto.
I need to go out and photograph all the different interior schemes in MARTA cars before they get replaced. I have only one so far. This is a Franco post-facelift interior, in pretty good shape. I'm not a big fan of the harsh "landscape" looking patterns. The non-facelifed Francos have a better pattern.
Ilived in Atlanta for several months. I like MARTA a lot (except there isn't enough of it). The bus service can be pretty decent, too.
When I went to the airport, I used MARTA exclusively. The trains were always full of people.
I read in an Airport Engineering book about intermodal facilities. It said that Atlanta Hartsfield and DC National have the two highest rates of train to airport usuages in the country relative to the number of passengers who use the airport. Both are at 9%. Since ATL is the world's busiest airport, that a hell of a lot of people riding MARTA to the airport (probably around 7-8 million/year, or about 10% of MARTA's yearly ridership!)
I would like to point out that Airport (remember to use the correct name of the institution!!!) and National Aiport (again, I used the correct name) are the two closest subway stations to their respective airports, Hartsfield and National respectively. Maybe NYC should take a look at those two.
I wonder where SEPTA's R1 ranks on that scale. Seems like a popular service.
IIRC, Philly was around 2%.
IIRC, Philly was around 2%.
What about the CTA's Blue Line to O'Hare Airport?
I even try to get long layovers in Atlanta just so I can railfan on MARTA from the airport while I'm on the ground.
Mark
i remember when i lived in college park back in the bus 88 dayz
( no college park station ) !! -1983-1987-....!!
i remember when fort mac opened up and when the hitachi cars were
shiny brand new .........i moved to detroit after the airport was
opened.......a long time ago now
....glad they got r9id of that floor carpet and the paper transcard!!
2 big mistakes !!
You're ahead of yourself! It'll be a couple of year beofre ALL the cars are rid of carpet. Also a couple of more years before they get rid of the weekly paper transcard for a much better system.
oh no !.............justr when you thought it was safe 2 go back into
the water ..........!
.& i thought they got hip ! .............lol !!
life is a bitch "" then there is marta "" not- "smarta" at all ..
he he he
Oh yeah, here is one thing I absolutely hate about MARTA: The fare system.
Over half the turnstiles never work. You can have a bank of 5 and only have one of them working properly. At stations where extremely high usuage is expected (ie, a football game lets out at the Dome), the station agents will freewheel all the turnstiles and place buckets for you to drop your token in while they suprvise. They know the turnstiles can't handle too many people or they'll break, which is why they do this. At stations with always high usuage (like Five Points or Lindbergh Center), they have to same thing set up all the time at one turnstile just in case the working turnstiles break.
The token machines don't make change. Only have a $20 and want one token? Too bad, you're going to be stuck with 11 tokens and 3 quarters. Usually only one token mackine works out of the 2 or 3 they have at an entrance.
The handicap gates make it soooo easy to evade fare. I gotta admit I've done it a few times. Just reach around to the other side and pull the gate open. Piece of cake. I've stood at an entrance waiting for someone to pick me up and seen maybe 20 evaders in about 10 minutes. Fare evading is out of control here because its too easy. The broken turnstiles also make for a convienent excuse for using the handicap gate in case you get caught.
Calandar based passes. Weekly and Monthy transcards are for canlandar months only. If you buy a pass on the 2nd or 3rd, you just missed out on a day or two of usuage.
The good news is that an RFP has been placed for a new fare system, we should have a new system in a few years.
How soon do monthly passes go on sale? SEPTA uses calendar-monthly passes too, but you can buy them starting on the 20th of the previous month, so you have plenty of opportunity to buy them ahead of time, losing no days of use.
Mark
I have no idea, I'm sure it's about a week or so before the month starts.
Rob, I still haven't heard from you. Did you remember to send Saxby and Sonny my heartiest congratulations, and those four state senators who saw the light?
They've been so busy lately, I haven't had time to talk with them. :-)
You're a good sport. When I get to Atlanta we have to ride their Metro and talk some baseball.
does anyone know if any of the hitachi or franco-belge rail cars have AC traction motors? or what the benefits of ac traction are? i've tried to ask a few marta employees about it, but the only info i got was listening to two operators talking about it thru the cab door.
i live in atlanta too, and am rather obsessed with marta... i heard a rumor that someone fell down into the trackway at five points station yesterday (thursday) afternoon, and they ran north/south service along the southbound line for the afternoon... anyone know about this? i apparently arrived home at north avenue right before it happened.
(phew... that was my first post here...)
Do you go to GSU? I go to Tech.
The Francos will keep their DC motors while the Hitatchis will be fitted with AC.
yep... i go to gsu... i just started last fall, moving here from athens... i've thought marta was cool since i was about 5 (the first time i rode it) and moved here and promptly started learning as much about it as i can. i want to build a web page with as much technical info about the system as possible. people at marta headquarters are very nice about talking to their customers about stuff; off-shift operators have told me a lot too... i still have a lot to learn though...
it also keeps me from having to drive, and we get monthly transcards free in the dorms since we have to ride to class every day. (pop a mentos-commercial smile here (minus whatever sarcasm might be attached)... "thanks, MARTA!")
it also keeps me from having to drive, and we get monthly transcards free in the dorms since we have to ride to class every day. (pop a mentos-commercial smile here (minus whatever sarcasm might be attached)... "thanks, MARTA!")
I thought you guys had your blue GSU buses to take you to campus.
haha... we do, but marta runs *way* more frequently... i think that most of the gsu buses run out to the parking lots by turner field. i don't even know how often they go by the village... maybe once an hour at peak class times? no one i know in the dorms rides the gsu buses, haha... it's a nice gesture though.
That right more snow is possible for Northeast States. Just got off the phone from a friend of mines who was a meteorologist at National Weather Service in DC. She said there is two clipper type low pressure systems heading to Northeast states
A low still sitting in Gulf water continuing to fired up in last 12hrs moving ENE heading toward Tri-State direction by tommorrow.
But we in NYC may or may not get less snow than Southern New Jersey. It is still unknown pending on well the storm system strengthen.
Another low sitting on the New Mexico Arizona Utah Colorado panhandle is in the process of organizing and moving toward Southeast and then shift it track to the Northeast direction in late Fri or Sat Sun will bring us more snows by next tue or wed.
OH my, I get the feeling that this winter will be stick aroung for while. Few months National Weather Service predicting EL NINO growth. Since then, I knew there will be troubles. As mentioned here on the El NINO threads. And I'm still smelling it. Blizzard 2003 is one of them. I wasn't expected the Blizzard 2003 would come here and done its duty by changing the 20-30years old weather record. Now, I think Have to change my Caribbean trip schedule from August to May of this year instead. My guts is telling me that there will more intense hurricane that will caused catastrophic this summer in south hemisphere
AP story from tonight on the latest federal indictments in the local construction industry. I'm sure the local papers will have their own takes on it Thursday morning.
No transit-releated projects are listed in the story, but it goes to show why something like the Second Ave. subway is pegged at X kagillion of dollars to build, which of course goes a long way towards keeping it from being built at all.
***
NEW YORK (AP) - Two mob families skimmed millions of dollars off prominent city construction projects - including small baseball stadiums and the Museum of Modern Art - by infiltrating the unions that did the work, authorities said Wednesday.
The Genovese and Colombo families took control of two union locals using bribes and intimidation to gain key positions, collecting the money through deals in which mobsters and associates were paid for construction work they never did, prosecutors said.
The revelation came as prosecutors unsealed indictments against 42 people, including high-ranking members of the two crime families and members of the International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 and 15.
"This joint venture would be the envy of Wall Street," state Attorney General Eliot Spitzer told reporters. "It guaranteed profits and full employment and required no money down."
Joe Brady, a spokesman for the Washington-based union, said he had no immediate comment because the union had not seen the indictments.
The federal indictments accuse the mob families of getting their hands in construction work done by Locals 14 and 15 at prominent sites in all five of the city's boroughs going as far back as 1997.
Among them are stadiums for the Staten Island Yankees and Coney Island Mets, Staten Island University Hospital and the high-profile renovation of the Brooklyn General Post Office.
In one case, an indictment says, mobsters and associates held secret meetings inside a construction shed at a site where workers were building an addition to the Museum of Modern Art in Manhattan.
The Colombo family alone netted at least $2 million in wages and union benefits, the indictment charges - money officials said rightly belonged to union rank-and-file and to developers and taxpayers who footed the construction bills.
Hello, I'm SUBWAYMAN.
Welcome!
I hope you enjoy your visit here.
Regards,
Stef
Hello! and welcome to the NYCSUBWAY.org subtalk.
Hello, I'm RAILFAN WINDOW. I run the website below:
Take Pride,
Brian
Welcome to SubTalk "SUBWAYMAN"! Hopy you enjoy your stay!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modleing Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
Welcome, now, tell us a little about your self.
Daily commuter, school student, out-of-towner who wishes he/she was back & could ride the trains ?
Got some suggestions for changing the system (everybody here does), wishing you could work for the system, or want to get dirty helping to preserve the old stuff ?
Note the "Field Trips" in the Comming Events section of this site. Also look at the reports of past Field Trips to see how we have F-U-N underground.
I'm from Massapequa Park. I love trains. I just turned 20 last week.
Happy Birthday!
Why thank you!
I also use the LIRR on the South Shore, but catch a train a little closer to the City ... now for FUN, but did 11 1/2 year commute. Prefer to take the train vs. drive to Manhattan. Usually ride in the first car at the front window ... is a nice ride.
So do I. Not because I can't drive a car, because I love it.
Hi, Mitch45 here.
Welcome to the wild and wacky world of SubTalk.
Before I say anything else: Where do you check in on the 76th Street Station controversy?
Hello SUBWAYMAN
Are you more powerful than a locomotive?
No just a regular 20 year old.
I've been posting so much today that I thought I'd post on this particular item. The old IRT homeball which governs movements S/B from Track M to Track 2, south of Jackson Av, has been restored to full operation as of today. This is a good sign, as this construction can start to wind down soon. The switch work has shifted signals a few feet, particularly on Track M and Track 2.
The signal to govern movement N/B from Track M to Track 3 south of Jackson has not been placed in service as of yet. Also, there are no homeballs installed at the new switch north of Jackson to govern movements. For now, the Train Operator only has to deal with an automatic in front of that switch.
I'd love to have one of those IRT signals kept preserved! Too bad we don't use these interlocking type signals at Branford, I'd love to find a place for an IRT homeball!
After the switch work is done, I'm sure a few GOs will be in place to deal with completion of the signal work.
-Stef
We'll be PROUD to park it here in Voorheesville, where it'll remain lit and happy. :)
I'm all for installing some "real" signals at Breanford, bring'em on!! I already have my 'secret plan 506-A.33' ready to go for resignalling Alex interlocking* with a 65 lever machine :-)
( *-Alex is all of two switches )
SUBWAY TOKEN BOOTHS WIN A REPRIEVE
The MTA is derailing its controversial plan to shut down 177 token booths while it remains on track next week to approve raising the bus and subway fare to $2, The Post has learned.
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (news - external web site)'s 23-member board is "flexible" when it comes to closing the booths, sources said.
The plan has sparked widespread criticism from straphangers at several recent public hearings.
"Many of the booth closings make no sense," said one MTA official. "The board will have a real discussion on how feasible the closings are at this point."
The MTA has said closing token booths would save $25 million.
[The article continues...]
This isn't necessarily good news for passengers. Many of the booths proposed for closure were part-time.
An entrance open 24/7 with MVMs may be more useful than one open rush hours only with a token booth, and otherwise locked up tight. Especially if the alternative is a long walk to another entrance, involving crossing busy streets.
Absolutely, but somehow that point was missed by the masses.
There were some flaws in the plan. Some stations, including my home station and a transfer point to a bus to the airport, were scheduled to lose all attended access to one of the platforms. Good luck trying to squeeze your luggage through the HEET. My station was going to lose its only NB booth but keep its SB part-time booth. I would have loved to see that booth go away, but that wasn't in the cards for some reason.
The latge majority of booths to be closed were part time with a few exceptions. It is not that the large majority of people wanted the booths to remain open.
The problem with these situations is that the special interest groups, unions and politicians utilize these situation for thier own political gain spreading false information to the public.
The average subway rider does not care either way. As the trasit authorities own statistics show, 58% people buy there cards at MVM's. The majority of these people would not care if every tooken booth was closed tommorrow.
Stations where fare control area's are unmanned most of the day has not drawn major public outcry. This is because the average rider does not care if there is a tooken booth or not. The union bringing up the false security issue played on the minds of a fearful public.
"As the trasit authorities own statistics show, 58% people buy their cards at MVM's. The majority of these people would not care if every token booth was closed tommorrow. "
Considering it is the TA that is looking to close the booths can one really put much faith in those statistics?
That would be like letting a fox take inventory of the chickens in the henhouse.
I agree that stats can be twisted in any way that one want to. The easiest way to do this is to pick a period that best backs up your cause
The straphangers campaign and NYPIRG in General is famous for this I know first hand. I worked with them in high school for community service.
Even if the Ta twisted the number by a few percentage point by picking the best period possible, MVM are a hit. With the fact that metrocards are available in stores in addtion to in station at the MVM's, The tooken booth clerk as a seller of fares is obsolete and would not be missed if they were completly illiminatd.
The most objective way to observe the lack of need of s/a is to observe stations that have automated entrances. In addtion there has not been an outswell of protest at stations that operate without a tooken booth for large parts of the day. Many of these stations have been operating this way for years with little complaint. Most of the current issues being raised are manufactured by the union and politicians who are looking to get their name in the paper.
I am in favor of closing part-time booths and replacing them with full-time access points.
I am in favor of implementing a comprehensive remote monitoring and customer service system, with cameras and customer service phones, and turnstiles instead of HEETs. Once such a system is installed, I will be in favor of closing the rest of the booths. A limited number of agents, most of them circulating around small sections of the system, would continue to lend a hand (but not handle money), but that would be primarily the job of a roomful of offsite customer service agents.
But until such a system is implemented, as long as NYCT insists that unattended entrances can't have standard turnstiles, I think it is absolutely essential that each platform have access to an attended booth.
And I think it is outlandish that one of the booths on the hit list is the only booth accessible to the NB platform at a designated transfer point to a widely publicized bus to the airport.
There is a SECOND NY Post article on 2/27 that takes the opposite view.
Reporter Stefan C. Friedman gets very critical of one particular female Token Booth operator.
You mean THIS ARTICLE ?
Wonder why he doesen't mention the booths location??? Hmmm.
Peace,
ANDEE
If he mentioned where this agent was working, people would "visit" her. Still the Post ran a pic where Ms Jones who won all those grammys lives.
I always had my doubts about NY Post columnists. You do have to wonder about someone who deliberately buys 2 tokens every single day. The most charitable explanation I can think of is that he does it deliberately to gather material for a story.
"... You do have to wonder about someone who deliberately buys 2 tokens every single day ..."
The TA has wanted to get rid of the Token for the past few years, BUT so many folks prefer to buy tokens vs. "Single Ride Ticket" that they haven't been able to/were unwilling to bite the bullet & do it.
I still see 600 to 700 a day at this bus depot.
If he's so frustrated by his S/A and so pro-technology, why is he buying two tokens every morning? I'm skeptical that this even a factual account...
I am skeptical also...very skeptical....the NY Post is SUCH a rag.
Peace,
ANDEE
Rupert Murdoch should go back to Australia to push his poison.
If Murdoch can make $$$ here he'll push his poison here.
Economic anarchy like that is exactly what is rapidly destroying America.
So it's ok for people who agree with you to push their opinions, but it's not ok for people who disagree with you to push their opinons.
And which small Latin American country were you dictator of?
bu$h and the repubilcan party, with murdoch's help is turning America into a police stste.
How come Martin Sheen, Susan Sarandon, and Harry Belafonte get belittled by the Shrill right while charlton heston , john milius and leading anti- rail agitator jay leno skate free.
The booth was probably in KOREA. You know how the Post is ALL editorial and zero journalism. But I suppose trashing token booth staff gives them something to talk about besides "Whacko Jacko" ...
Then again, maybe it's someone we know from SubTalk who is actually pleasent & helpful to him, BUT that doesn't make good copy, so the only factual part of the story is that the agent is female ?
It's the *POST* fer krissakes! :)
And as for facts, unless the token booth agent was dangling a baybee out the coin hole, it wouldn't be worth noting to Murdoch's droids and ideologues. After all, facts and POST are kinda mutually exclusive. Let's all turn to page six and whip the monkey. :)
It is an opinion... Not all opinions are backed with good points. :)
Let me get this straight. We have a reporter from the NY Post who buys 2 tokens every morning? Hasn't he ever heard of the MetroCard?
I seriously question his reasoning ability.
But he is ranting about getting rid of the booths yet he buys 2 tokens every day?
Seeing as you cant buy tokens at MVMs. A somewhat contradictory position to take, don't you think?
Heh, I question also why he doesen't mention what station either.
Peace,
ANDEE
Let me get this straight. We have a reporter from the NY Post who buys 2 tokens every morning? Hasn't he ever heard of the MetroCard?
Maybe he's testing to see how competent the S/A's are(n't).
But he is always buying them at the same station every day.
How can he get a reading of competancy that way?
This guy is almost as bad as Ray Sanchez of Newsday.
Maybe he likes waiting on line and spends the time looking to see why the line doesn't move.
Maybe this reporter does not know how to use a metrocard.
Last night on CBS news, another perspective, one of safety, was utilized in protesting both closings of token booths, and using the recent rash of fires in Rhode Island, and the subway fire in Japan. They claimed high wheel turnstyles would trap persons during stampede conditions, and closing token booths and associated points of exit will kill people. The matter will be taken to the governor according to the news. Thats as good a shot as any to get the matter dealt with.
Many stations in Boston's subway that have high turnstiles at one end of the station also have "crash gates" for emergency exits. That's good. But they are often opened (they're not alarmed) and so people can come "in the out" and evade the fare.
Hey Todd, I like those helicopter pictures of Jamaica Yard and Stillwell pre demolition you left for us in new images. That Van Wyck never moves.
I took those a number of years ago; Dave just got around to posting them. I can't recall if the Jamaica Yard picture were taken from the jumpseat of the USAirway Shuttle approaching LGA, or from the WCBS traffic helicopter. The Stillwell pictures were definitely from the helicopter.
Here are some more.
...and using the recent rash of fires in Rhode Island...
AFAIK, there was only one fire!
Maybe he thinks that South Korea is in Rhode Island?
If Pyongyang pushes the button, South Korea may just land in Rhode Island.
But if you look at it from another prespective.
Station automation will allow the MTA to keep open more exit ways increasing the path to safety
Under the current setup, if a bomb goes off in a station at night, many exits are locked off with no escape'
There are two sides to every coin
One side says "New York City Transit Authority" and the other side says "Good For One Fare"
LOL,
Peace,
ANDEE
Not for long.
"There are two sides to every coin"
Yes, one is heads and the other is for MTA Management.
A better example is the tragic 1984 Kings Cross station fire in the London Underground. Fires are a real danger in subways and mass evacuation plans are critical It is false economy to create such a huge potential liability. Manned subway stations are mandatory for the forseeable future.
"A better example is the tragic 1984 Kings Cross station fire in the London Underground. Fires are a real danger in subways and mass evacuation plans are critical It is false economy to create such a huge potential liability. Manned subway stations are mandatory for the forseeable future."
Major London Underground stations have lots of staff, both in ticket offices (LU equivalent of token booths) and on the platforms - but that didn't prevent the 1984 fire at Kings Cross. Those on this board who advocate the closure of token booths don't advocate completely unstaffed stations, they advocate that staff should be able to move around the stations rather than just sitting in a booth, and that such staff on the platforms and in passageways would be a greater help towards public safety than staff shut in a booth.
Incidentally - to get into another controversial area - platform staff are also helpful in achieving OPTO, since the platform staff can double check that no-one is caught in the doors. (LU is all OPTO.)
Well well well. I for one will miss the token a great deal. And I LIKE digital technology! I liked having a purely mechanical entry system. All it needs is planetary gravity and friction. In all the years I've used tokens I never had one jam on me. I just liked it: a special coin gave entry to hundreds of sit down travel miles.
The system seemed to be able to handle the heavier ridership of years past with just the token. And paper transfers for buses and trolleys. The idea of totally automated entry still doesn't seem like the right thing to do. I don't think a system of video cameras peering onto the platforms will make many woman riding the system feel safer than standing within site of a manned booth. Especially at night. This is where the penalty of "realistic economics" is taking us to? Making the system less safer? Seems like an uneconomic tradeoff IMO.
I don't think a system of video cameras peering onto the platforms will make many woman riding the system feel safer than standing within site of a manned booth. Especially at night.
What about women standing elsewhere on the platform, or anywhere at all on a platform that isn't on the same level as the booth? What about women walking through passageways? What about women who have to walk to the far end of the platform (and back on the street above) because the near exit is locked up at night?
Video cameras and full-time access to all entrances and exits solve these problems. Token booths don't.
Well, from what I see most women still tend to position themselves nearer to booths (if nearby) or will wait at the control area near wherever the booth happens to be located. I thought that was why they started the approaching train alarm, so that people could wait near the booth for the train. My concern is whether the technology can ever offer a similar level of "confidence" for a rider, even if fully decked out. Sure, the PATH stations have this but it's not a real equivalent to the subways.
Well, from what I see most women still tend to position themselves nearer to booths (if nearby) or will wait at the control area near wherever the booth happens to be located. I thought that was why they started the approaching train alarm, so that people could wait near the booth for the train. My concern is whether the technology can ever offer a similar level of "confidence" for a rider, even if fully decked out.
Point is, the "confidence" offered by standing near a booth is a wholly false confidence.
Well, from what I see most women still tend to position themselves nearer to booths (if nearby) or will wait at the control area near wherever the booth happens to be located.
Okay. Now what about the other end of the trip? What if the booth where they boarded was all the way at the back of the train but the booth (and only full-time exit) where they get off is all the way at the front? Which is safer, to walk the entire length of the unattended platform or to walk halfway under video surveillance and duck out through an unattended exit midway down (and walk one block less on the street)?
Okay, you're presenting valid points. Yes, there can be a bit of a platform/train shuffle to riders seeking greater safety. Anyway, outside of Manhattan the percentage of female riders after sundown drops significantly lower. I basing that opinion on personal observations, not any collated data on the subject.
I'll nudge with one more point of my own. Is it your opinion that the eliminating of token booths is a done deed? We will "never" go back to the concept of a live person (more or less) administering "entry rights"? My own thoughts are that the feasibility of this might be lower than other systems around the country. Soley due to the volume of passengers riding the trains. Maybe there can be other ways to bite the bullet? Of course, I can't come up with any offhand....uh, unless we start educating people right from grade school of the true worth of that train ride, thus the legitimate necessity of raising fares to cover at least the operational costs of the system. That would be an elegant solution but....
The volulume of people that can be accomadated from entering is not significantly affected by illiminated tooken booth clerks. Tooken booth clerks sell fares, they do not affect the flow of people through fare control
HEET's in thier current implimentation with magnetic metrocards handle slightly fewer riders due to the placement of the reader and the lightly more force needed to push through the turnstyle. This slight reduction in capasity can be overcome by adding addtioal HEET's. Many stations have the room to add addtioal heets where fences now stand. Some entrances that are smaller such as Kings Highway and AVE U have addional room once the booth is removed.
Riders adjusted to the slight slower progress through the turnsytles that metrocard caused vs tokken. They will adjust again. RF-smartcard metrocards will allow quicker access through heets. Plus the MTA should adjust the tension on the HEETS to make them easier to push
For those who claim it is hard to bring packages through a heet, I did I little test yesterday(If the S/A were really the security eyes and ears to defeat terrorism they would have called the police with my suspicious behvior while i was performing the test). It was far easier to get through a HEET with a suitcase, small duffel bag and a large bag containg a new cannon printer and coat I bought then it was at a turnstyle. The narrowness of the turnstyle made it extremly difficult to contort the items to get through, while the heet just like a revolving door at a office building allowed be to shuffle the item along the floor as I proceeded through
My point about large packages is that some simply won't fit at all through a HEET, and with NYCT's current (or former?) plans, a traveler to LGA who gets off the 2/3 at 125th to transfer to the M60 (as indicated on The Map) may have to choose either to miss his flight or to abandon his luggage on the platform, since the only access to and from the northbound platform at that station (and at a few others) is via HEETs and HXTs.
I was helping someone travel with luggage today. It was too large to fit through the turnstile so I asked the S/A to open the gate. There needs to be a gate and there needs to be someone to ask to unlock it -- I don't care if that person is physically on-site or is reachable on a (working) customer service phone.
"I was helping someone travel with luggage today. It was too large to fit through the turnstile so I asked the S/A to open the gate. There needs to be a gate and there needs to be someone to ask to unlock it -- I don't care if that person is physically on-site or is reachable on a (working) customer service phone"
I completly agree that there needs to be a gate at certain exits. Especially one that is marked as a route to transfer to a bus to the airport. Sheepshead bay stations has a a nifty customer assistant box next to it's MVM's at it's automated entrance. The call box combined with a cctv camera to see if the exit gate is really needed to be open will do the trick.
To play devils advocate. Any bag that would be too big to get through a heet would not be allowed on most planes. The airlines have gotten a bit strict on baggage size recently
No, every station needs at least one gate accessible from each platform. How would you like to reach your destination station after flying in only to find that you couldn't get out?
To play devils advocate. Any bag that would be too big to get through a heet would not be allowed on most planes. The airlines have gotten a bit strict on baggage size recently
What if the person is planning to check the luggage when he or she gets to the airport?
Checked luggage requirements have also changed.
Anyway your point about there should be a gate at the entrance is well taken. I also have reservations about an all HEET setup.
Currently many fare controls not just the booths close down at certain hours of the day. In that case the person would have to walk all the way down to the other end of the platform having no choice as to exit through the automated entrance exit.
Plus that women will have to walk the entire platform, stairways and tunnels with no supervision of any security personel.
Monitored video surveliance of the entire station complex is provides far more security then a manned tokken booth. In addtion lets not forget if a criminal would commit a crime it would be caught on tape and it would be far easier to track him down and capture him. This will further reduce the crime in the subway by reducing the number of perpetrators. In adddition police could be deployed prior to a crime happending if the camera monitor notices a person demonstrating suspicious behavior thus preventing a possible incident
I agree with all of this, as long as the video cameras are treated as the safety-critical devices that they would be.
Whatever the security benefits of on-site agents are (I'm not convinced there are any, but others obviously disagree), those benefits only apply where the agents are on-site: near the booth, perhaps including a small piece of platform. The rest of the station (most of the platform, the passageways, the stairways) is unsupervised. A comprehensive security camera system would not only take the place of agent-based security, it would extend it to the rest of the station.
The video camera's would have to be treated as safety critical devices and would have to be actively maned and monitored The system could be further enanced by using security software that gives priority to areas currently occupied. Utilizing face reconition software could also help the police track down people with outstanding warrents or otherwise wanted.
I spoke with our buddy Gene Russianoff at the bronx public hearing about using the tooken boot closings as leverage to make sure the MTA institutes the proper security measures to improve security. All he is interested in is presuring pataki to provide more transit funding. He admitted that the whole station agent provides security issue is bogus due to the fact that the many stairwells and platforms are complety unmonitored including his home station on the N/R 4th ave line
We spoke about OPTO and the tests on the G. He mentioned his concern about safety with OPTO. I asked him what was his solution to improve safety. As with the tooken booth issue use his leverage to impliment inteligent OPTO(in cab flat pannel monitors or heads up display of the platform) Riders on his home line N/R would see greatly improved service with 4 car or 6-car OPTO (with Inteligent OPTO any length train is safe because the T/O will be able to see the entrire platform) which will allow increased train frequencies at the same or reduced costs(the 4th ave and broadway locals have tons of excess capasity)
FYI his public statements directly contradict what we spoke about and he supposely supports. At the hearing he got a big round of applause by praying on people's fear's of osama bin ladden stating that by closing tooken booths we are inviting osama and freinds to blow up the subway.
His respone to my inquery about what the press reports as his position and the actual position of straphaners campaign was that the press covers what it wants. My personal opinion is that he tells them waht he thinks will get him a headline.
The straphangers campaign would get more bang for the buck in improving service for riders if it focused on obtainable goals and gets away from the pie in the sky give us money crap
(Video cameras and full-time access to all entrances and exits solve these problems. Token booths don't.)
I agree. But has the MTA promised that concurrent with closing booths they will install video cameras and have people actually looking at them?
No. As in the case of automated announcements on trains, NYCT is embarking on a poor implementation of a good idea (IMO).
I think that automated fare control is fine, If there is an effective way to collect the fares. I dont think that we currently have that
For anyone who grew up in the '70s, like I did, today is a very sad day. CNN is reporting that Fred Rogers, known to me and millions of other children of the '70s as "Mr. Rogers," has died of stomach cancer at 74.
From what I've read about him, Fred Rogers was the genuine article, a kind and gentle man whose on-screen persona was almost identical to his real one.
Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/27/rogers.obit/index.html
This is not really off-topic because Mr. Rogers seems to have been an avid railfan. He had a nifty trolley setup in his house and used it daily. I think seeing that trolley daily sparked my original interest in model trains when I was a kid, and then to real trains when I got older.
Farewell, Mr. Rogers. Hope you like your new neighborhood up there.
Man, I just saw that! May he and his trolley be remembered forever.
Take Pride,
Brian
There goes a small piece of my childhood.
Mr. Rogers always reminded me a little of my dad. He had a similarly gentle personality and also wore cardigans around the house. He died in 1981 at age 52, so now I feel a little like I lost him again.
I think that's the kind of dad we would all like to have had.
If there's anything we lack in TV for our kids, it's warmth.
Really sorry about your dad. You must miss him a lot.
I think of him daily. My son (14 months old) has his name.
The good new is that Mr Shows are timeless. PBS announced when he retired that there is enough Mr. Rogers shows to continue to run them for the next 20 years without ever repeating one show. The trolley was my absolute favorite part of the show. The content of the show is timeless.
Farewell Mr. Rogers. You will be missed
My 15 month old niece absolutly loves him
I used to love when the teolley segment of the show would begin.
I also loved the beginnng and ending when the camera would zoom in and out of the model HO-scale neighborhood.
--Mark
PBS announced when he retired that there is enough Mr. Rogers shows to continue to run them for the next 20 years without ever repeating one show.
I assume you mean to rerun each show once for 20 years, not 20 years of new shows?
Mr. Rogers stopped filming new shows during the summer of 2001. Basically, his goal was to have enough colour shows to cover all the myraid of problems that kids can be faced with. Appearently he retired having completed his task and thus enabling children for even centuries to come to have a better childhood. Its not too often when someone dies or retires having truely finished their life's work. It just tells you something about what kind of man Mr. Rogers was.
I think any of us who have lost our fathers feel the same way. I lost mine 24 years ago. The pain never really goes away.
That is sad news. At least he lived long enough to see his theories of children's television proven right.
He'll be missed, along with other favorites of children's television in New York, Officer Joe Bolton and Ray Heatherton.
I hope someone remembers to feed his fish in the kitchen tank. He always remembered to say hello to his fish when he passed by every day.
Respect for all, big and little, was a big part of his message.
I agree. A very sincere man indeed and he will be surely missed.
I am now 23 years old and I grew up watching Mr. Roger's Neighborhood and Sesame Street but Mr. Rogers was my favorite. There were many parts that I loved about the show but the best had to be the RedBird trolley of course.
And yes Mr. McPheely will give a "speedy delivery" of food to the fish.
RIP Mr. Rogers!
#1979 7 Flushing Local
I'm too young to have seen the "Merry Mailman". But Bolton seemed to have just introduced the Dick Tracy cartoons and the Three Stooges shorts. Did I miss something?
A shame. Unfortunately, it couldn't have been the other Mr. Rogers instead who owns the evil cable empire.
-Robert King
It may sound silly but I was in my twenties when I watched Mr. Rogers and I must say that he always had interesting topics to talk about. My children watched his show in the late 80's. He would show films and have on stage demonstrations that I'm sure sparked interest in a number of careers. When I worked for the TA I remember a fellow Motorman Instructor by the name of Fred Rogers and I remember always kidding him by asking him "do you have a traffic light in your kitchen? I remember he did a story about the Branford Trolley Museum and if memory serves me correctly there was a clip showing BQT PCC #1001.
Farewell Mr. Rogers, you certainly are what most people strive to be.
Keep the trolleys in good order until we get there.
Bob
I always watched Mr. Rogers withmy kids, and at one point he did a show from a trolley museum, although I was under the impression that he did it from a museum by Pittsburgh. He actually operated one of the trolleys, and sounded thrilled about it. I'll probably miss him (and his humanity) as much, if not more than my kids.
You're probably right. It may have been the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (aka the Arden Trolley Museum) near Pittsburgh.
Bob
It probably was.
A few years ago, the Childrens Museum of Manhattan had an exhibit on Mister Rogers, complete with a visit from some of the cast members. They, of course, had a replica of the Neighborhood Trolley running around the exhibit, and my son was beside himself with joy at the sight of it.
An end to an era. Mr. Rogers was an institution to many of us. He was brilliant, amusing and educating. He will be missed.
He taught my wife and me that "everyone has to be somewhere." Wherever he is, it's a place without suffering. I wish his family and his zillions of fans peace and fulfillment.
Every childhood's dream of riding in that cute little trolley as much as I remember, in addition to the "King" and "Queen" will be long remebered to all Subtalkers young and old alike. When I went to San Francisco, I rode in the Powell/Hyde and Powell/Taylor trolleys and the first thing I can remember is that trolley I adored with the DING-DING on that PBS show.
Mr. Rogers, I hope one day you get to a computer in heaven and read all these postings, we will miss you forever. God bless you and your dedication to making millions of children (including myself while growing up in the 70's.) smile and tell them that they are special in this world.
It was mine. Because of Mister Rogers' show, I always wondered why we didn't have real trolleys when I was a kid and I used to see them in the history books. I never rode a trolley until I visited colleges in Boston. Then I read how they "disappeared".
Normally when a celebrity or someone famous dies, I couldn't care less. But I'm REALLY saddened by this :-(
I feel the same way, Rob. I watched Mr. Rogers quite often in the 80s, and even a little bit into the 90s. He was so gentle and made you feel special, no matter who you were. I also know that he was really a true man; he acted the same way off camera that he did on the screen. And of course, a tv show with a trolley....you can't beat that. -Nick
I agree Mr Rogers will be missed.I am almost certain he sparked numerous railfans by his trolleys and field trips.I am saddened by his passing ,but happy he no longer has to go thru the pain of stomach cancer.
I think he was around in the 80s as well, I remember watching Mr.Rogers all the time when I was a kid. A sad day indeed. :-(
He recorded his final episode last year.
I watched it, it was the first time in at least ten years that I did. It didn't feel stupid for me to do so.
I wish I could have seen his final episode. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just bussiness as usual. He always intended for his bank of episodes to keep running long after he stopped making new ones so there would be no real need for him to have a farewell episode.
I didn't watch it but I read that if you didn't know it was the last episode, you wouldn't have been able to tell.
That's the way it was, I don't even remember what it was about.
This is a truely sad event and I say this as someone who watched Mr. Rogers Neighborhood all throughout my youth and even to this day when I'm home during the afternoon and there is nothing better on. I think Mr Rogers was by far and away the nicest and most descent person in America who was universally loved and admired. It was hearting that in a world filled with such "false profits" (Catholic priests etc) Mr. Rogers was a shining light that always represented all that was good.
His death comes as something of a shock, having recently seen him do the coin toss at the Rose Bowl and while he completed his work in the medium of television about 18 months ago, he still had the ability to improve the human race for years to come. In a world so filled with hate and ignorance it is people like Mr. Rogers who are needed more than ever.
To someone who always put children first, to someone who personally inspired and taught me, to a fellow railfan and to someone who lived on the PRR main line I bid a fond farwell.
A very nice post, Mike.
May his ideals live forever.
I'm with you all the way, Mike. Mr. Rodgers was "the man". He taught my son a lot in his growing up years. The trolley was also the best.
Chuck Greene
Hey, he still teaches me alot. I was watching the show recently and I learned how traffic lights were made (no, not the LED kind). It was very informative.
Hey, stop laughing.
I like when they show the video making peanut butter!
Damn, I actually remember that! Another I liked was how they made erasers.
Where did they find all those super-generic factories with ::gasp:: non-mexican labour?
Those aren't set in New York obviously! :) It's probably in the mid-west or something.
PITTSBURGH (Feb. 27) - Fred Rogers taught his young viewers that death was something to be talked about. It shouldn't be any different now that Mister Rogers is gone.
The group that produced ''Mister Rogers' Neighborhood,'' Family Communications Inc., is telling parents not to shy away from their children's questions in the wake of Rogers' death. A pioneer in children's television, Rogers, 74, died in Pittsburgh early Thursday after a bout with stomach cancer.
''As Mister Rogers always said, 'Whatever is mentionable can be more manageable.' Crying, feeling sad, that's part of being human,'' said Hedda Sharapan, an associate producer with the show, which has continued to broadcast repeats since the final new episode aired in August 2001.
''Young children need help in dealing with this. They don't understand death the same way adults do,'' she said.
The people who created the show say parents need to be aware that every child will experience the news of Rogers' death in his or her own way. It's important, they said, that parents ask how their children feel about it and listen to what they say.
''If you only say, 'He was sick and died,' children may worry that you or they might die, too, when you're 'sick' - with the flu or a cold,'' the group said on its Web site.
Some children may not believe Rogers is dead because they just saw him on television. In this case, parents may want to explain that when people die they cannot come back to life, ''but Mister Rogers put his programs on videotape so they can be shown over and over again,'' the Web site said.
Rogers faced the subject of death on his show. On one program, he discussed the death of a fallen bird; another dealt with the death of one of his goldfish.
At the end of the program about the goldfish, he sang a song in which he said it's OK not to have all the answers about death.
In an article on the Family Communications Web site, Rogers and collaborator Barry Head, a member of the Family Communications' board of directors, wrote about the need to be honest with children.
''Just being close to our children and being willing to listen to their concerns about death - or anything else - allows them to know that they can mention difficult things to us and we'll respect their 'wonderings' and be as honest and helpful as we know how,'' they wrote.
The two also wrote a book entitled ''Mister Rogers Talks with Parents.''
''Fred always thought of children first and how to talk to them,'' Sharapan said. ''Every parent has to decide how best to talk to their children about this.''
Source: America Online News
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Rogers faced the subject of death on his show. On one program, he discussed the death of a fallen bird; another dealt with the death of one of his goldfish.
At the end of the program about the goldfish, he sang a song in which he said it's OK not to have all the answers about death.
Best not to carry the goldfish analogy too far ... it would definitely send a mixed message to tell your ankle-biters that "Mr. Rogers has been flushed down the toilet."
You ARE cold, IMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, just the ultimate cynic.
You are probabaly right.
Peace,
ANDEE
You know what Oscar Wilde said about cynics.
LOL!
You ARE cold, IMHO.
I've probably spent too much time on Stiffs.com
But seriously, I recall reading some time ago that Fred Rogers was as nice a person in real life as he was on his show. It's almost the opposite of what you'd expect. One would tend to think that a person with such a warm-'n'-fuzzy TV persona would be a hateful schmuck in real life. But it certainly wasn't the case with him.
Thank you, for posting that.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you for the wonderful suggestions, maybe you should copy this whole text, and email to as many friends, post this in news web sites under "Talk about this story" or similar language.
The spoken or written is the most powerful tool in the universe, compare that with "The pen is mightier than the sword."
Pass the word everyone!!! America will miss his gentleness, impartiality, and undying love for childre of the whole world, as well as his oppression to bigotry. It's not a "Make Believe World" what Fred Rogers did. He even took a parody of an Eddie Murphy SNL skit in stride by thanking him later on. A gentle giant and so many words and phrases I cannot describe at this time, all positive of course.
One of the 20th Centuries' greatest icons ever, God bless him forever.
Sesame Street also dealt with death occasionally - the death of Mr. Hooper, for example.
--Mark
Speaking about death, you were not allowed to mention it on Nickelodeon at one time. In 1995 (until 2000) Nick started cracking down on the kid-friendliness of it's shows, remember on Rocko's Modern Life when Chokey Chicken (adult reference) became Chewy Chicken. On the Mother's Day episode of the Rugrats in 1997, Chaz was interupted when he was about to mention that Chuckie's mother died soon after he was born. Hey Arnold, Spongebob, and As told by Ginger had bouts with the word. By 2001, Nick lifted the restrictions. As told by Ginger in season 2 had an episode were Dodie's grandmother passed away, they were allowed to talk about death.
That reluctance all seems weird to me now, at least in my neck of the woods.
A lot of NYC police and fire live in my school district. My older daughter remembers the kids who had to leave early one day. The boutique in Babylon Village has a display of more than a dozen pictures of service personnel and others. The house of the little girl at the end of my block still flies a flag at half-mast for a father no longer with us.
It's called 9/11, and it's worse than explaining why Mr. Hooper isn't in his store any more.
Mr. Rogers domniated my TV viewing habits from 1988-1990, but I still think the show is awesome.
Mr. Rogers, here's one fan that says thank you.
If there was one thing that Mr Rogers taught me, is that you can do anything you want as long as you put your mind to it, and you believe in yourself. He was the only unselfish television personality that ever lived. I always wanted to live in his "make-believe" house with the trolley and the fish.
And I still love Mr McFeely with his "Speedy Delivery" routine.
Even though I'm 26 years old now, I still watch Mr Rogers on TV, and this morning when I heard the news on CBS FM 101 this morning, a part of myself had died along with him. I always expected Mr Rogers to outlive me because he was such a good person.
If I was able to, I would name a street after him. In Manhattan, I would rename First Ave to Fred Rogers Blvd, because to me, he will always be NUMBER 1.
I think we should have a Salute and Homage to Fred Rogers on SubTalk Sunday at Branford on March 30, 2003. Hopefully, I'll be there to attend.
Thanks for 26 wonderful years Mr Rogers. I owe you one.
I wouldn't be surprised if a street were named after him.
We all sorely miss him. :(
Its a shame that cancer always gets the best people in life, while rats like Castro and Saddam living on and on despite heavy cigar usage.
Anyway, it would be really nice if a trolley museum could somehow build a replicia of the "Neighborhood Trolley" and run it in Mr. Rogers memory.
That sounds great. I love it. I would defenitly make a trip just to see that.
In honor of Fred Rogers, here's his song, forever in my mind, and heart:
" It's such a good feeling, to know you're alive, It's such a happy feeling, very good feeling, and when you wake up, ready to say, ' I think I'll make a snappy, today' (Snap, snap)".
"It's such a good feeling, a very good feeling, a feeling you'll know, that I'll be back, when the day is new, and I'll have more ideas, for you."
"And you'll have things you'll want to talk about,
I will, too."
So long Fred. I hope I got the words right.
Its a shame that cancer always gets the best people in life, while rats like Castro and Saddam living on and on despite heavy cigar usage.
Fidel Castro quit smoking cigars many years ago. He may still be photographed with one from time to time, but it'll be an unlighted prop.
The CIA should install some billboard ads in Havanna. He'll be back on the wagon in no time.
I remember watching Mr. Rogers as a kid. He was an institution in among our generation. A household name for families with small children, much the way the name Dr. Spock was to baby-boom generation.
One of the things that always comes to my mind is how Fred Rogers made such an impact on the world through the medium of television. Even top comedians spoofed him -- most notably Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live with that great recurring sketch, "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood". Also, the Newark-based "Uncle Floyd Show" also did a good rift on Fred Rogers' wholesome kiddie program.
He was a giant among his craft and we will not likely see someone of his caliber for some time.
I remember the "Neighborhood Trolley" from Mr. Rogers. It would wend through the "Land of Make Believe".
#3 West End Jeff
If it wasn't for watching Mister Rogers on Channel 13 as a kid, I probably wouldn't have been a trolley buff. I liked watching the trolley come into his house and stop, then head to the land of make-believe. I used to wish I had a trolley stop in my house.
Oh well. I will miss him. He did a lot for children's television and it's hasn't been the same without him.
That was my favorite things in the show. I don't know if it actually ran from one room to the other like that or it was two different sets; but the only thing comparable seemed to be the old toy train set at Macy's toy dept. at Christmas.
Has anyone noticed something very striking about this thread?
We all agree.
I've never seen anything like it on SubTalk. Mr. Rogers would be proud.
Now let's get back to fighting about railfan windows and escalators.
I have always found it amazing that given the great diversity of viewpoints in this country, everybody loved Mr. Rogers.
Yes, I'm a little amazed. Mr. Rogers was never "hip" and he was sometimes made fun of, though rarely with any vehemence.
He and the late Bob Keeshan never gave up the idea that children needed love and protection, and it was reflected in every show they made.
It would be nice to think that he's looking down on us and seeing how much he was appreciated.
The kids show Barney tries to follow the same themes, but by the time the kids are 7 and 8 years old, even they start making fun of the purple dinosaur. Yet you didn't hear similar types of fun-poking at Mr. Rogers.
--Mark
Yes, that's exactly right. In fact, Bob Keeshan liked to remind parents that "Barney the Dinosaur" was not made for them, it was made for children.
I bought my children their first Barney tape about the time PBS picked it up, so I got to see it before the then-dark-purple (now more like magenta) extinct guy became an object of wide-spread derision. From the point of view of a parent with two pre-schoolers, there was nothing not to like. You got a 45-minute story with a single continuous theme, some pleasant (from a 2 to 6 y.o. point-of-view) fantasy, noone was mean, and there were simple values of love and acceptance. Just what kids need more than ever and there is too little of today. The basic formula, preserved until PBS really took over in the second TV season was six kids, two boys and two girls, a "white" brother and sister, two Mexican-American sisters, one black boy and one Asian boy, so it's hard to say it wasn't inclusive.
Each tape had a lot of well-orchestrated songs. Everything that appeals to a kid of the intended age group. I think the kids have to make such a big deal of rejecting Barney (early rejection of their parents--not to get too Freudian about it) because so many adults spit on the beast, so it's sort of a rite of adulthood.
I bought my children their first Barney tape about the time PBS picked it up, so I got to see it before the then-dark-purple (now more like magenta) extinct guy became an object of wide-spread derision. From the point of view of a parent with two pre-schoolers, there was nothing not to like. You got a 45-minute story with a single continuous theme, some pleasant (from a 2 to 6 y.o. point-of-view) fantasy, noone was mean, and there were simple values of love and acceptance. Just what kids need more than ever and there is too little of today. The basic formula, preserved until PBS really took over in the second TV season was six kids, two boys and two girls, a "white" brother and sister, two Mexican-American sisters, one black boy and one Asian boy, so it's hard to say it wasn't inclusive.
I sort of think that the adults who make fun of Barney do so not because they think he's so awful - I'm sure most of them realize the show is for small children - but because it's sort of trendy to rag on him. Or at least it was trendy; today the au courant diversion is finding the homosexual themes in SpongeBob SquarePants.*
* = to the extent he is of a non-straight orientation, SB SP is carrying on an honorable kidvid tradition, following in the shoes (or, more accurately, in the light loafers) of Bert and Ernie, not to mention one of the Teletubbies.
the au courant diversion is finding the homosexual themes in SpongeBob SquarePants.
THere are certainly enough gay characters in cartoons going back to our grandparents' time, but SpongeBob? He seems in the same vein as Rocko--or Stanley Moon in Bedazzled--a shy young guy, just starting out as an adult and trying to figure it all out.
the au courant diversion is finding the homosexual themes in SpongeBob SquarePants.
There are certainly enough gay characters in cartoons going back to our grandparents' time, but SpongeBob? He seems in the same vein as Rocko--or Stanley Moon in Bedazzled--a shy young guy, just starting out as an adult and trying to figure it all out.
As it's a children's show, there of course can't be anything too explicit. For instance, SpongeBob's pipeapple house does not appear to have any dog-eared copies of GQ or any Maria Callas CD's. The innuendo, that's a different matter. There must be some young single ladies (if that's the term) living in Bikini Bottom, but do we ever see SpongeBob with any of them? I think not! We don't even see him shyly trying to ask one of them out. On the other hand, SpongeBob spends a curiously large amount of time with Patrick, does he not? I know, male friendships can be straight as an arrow, but these two take their interspecies relationship maybe just a wee bit too far, if you catch my drift. Oh, and then there's Squidward, who's your stereotypical older closeted gay dude who's never come to terms with his sexual orientation and therefore becomes sort of a crusty old curmudgeon. And let's not forget Mr. Crabs, who's fully straight but somewhat bewildered by the atmosphere in which he's found himself; he's not a homophobe, not exactly, but finds it hard to relate to the swishy set.
It's always fun to look back at kids TV, books, etc with adult eyes and imagine things that really aren't there. After all, who here hasn't wondered what's in those Scooby Snacks that make Scooby and Shaggy always see monsters? Is it the same thing that makes them hungry all the time?
Mark
I thought they just had the knack to be the first ones in their group to find monsters.
For anyone who saw the NiteLine special 18 months ago or its repeat tonight, there is a clip of him getting off of an Amtrak train at Union Station. If I recall correctly he was in town for a special evend and got to ride in the Beech Grove. After he got off the train the camera followed him through Union Station where hundreds of ordinary people recognized him and just had to come up and say thank you.
I would have thought Mr. Rogers more of a trolley rider than mainline customer :)
Yes, but the Toonerville Trolley "Met All Trains." :)
I will miss Mr. Rogers dearly. I grew up with him in my earliest of my childhood age. When I first came to America, PBS was the first station that I recall with the utmost quality of children's programs and educational programs, I have watched countless shows daily, none that I recall that were "reruns". He was always a classic to behold. The red trolley that he had was also a spark of interest. The way he controlled the motion of it was like acting over the controls as an engineer. The trolley took us to "magical" places, the most common one to a castle, where the arrival of the trolley would be the beginning of a story.
"It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood... would you be mine?"
Found this site referenced on the Strappies board:
http://www.ddp-ny.com/work/index.html
Has a graphic of what the Gun Hill Rd (WPR) and Stillwell Av terminal building will look like after completion.
Thank you for posting that.
Do New Yorkers appreciate design efforts made on their behalf by transit architects?
Hope springs eternal...
I would say your average NYer hasn't a clue as to what goes into the rehab/rebuilding of a subway station. As far as they are concerned, they grumble when the station is closed or has limited access while the work is being done and when it is finished they use the station as if nothing had changed.
But I think most do appreciate it but in typical NY fashion most people would not say it out loud.
Sadly, I would agree.
Unless they do a really outstanding job, as with Franklin St. Or if the station happened to be the ugliest and most delapidated in the system, as was the IRT Hoyt St. station.
The bright orange ceramic bricks of the 49th BMT above TS also gets comments, but not necessarily nice ones.
Am I one of the few people that actually like the 49th Street station with it's funky 70's look? It's the ONLY station I wouldn't want to see restored to it's original BMT mosaics. It also has some nostalgic interest for me too. I remember that bright orange station from when I was about 5, and it seemed like one of the only stations in the 70's that was clean, and not falling apart. It does show a bit of wear and tear now, but it's nothing that couldn't be cleaned up fairly easily. I think they should leave it.
Although here is what we are missing.......
From the book, "Subway Ceramics" by Lee Stookey - a must have for anyone who likes the mosaics, etc throughout the system.
"remember that bright orange station from when I was about 5, and it seemed like one of the only stations in the 70's that was clean, and not falling apart. It does show a bit of wear and tear now, but it's nothing that couldn't be cleaned up fairly easily. I think they should leave it."
I'll agree with that observation. It WAS one of the earlier manifestations of sleek moderne designs in the subway system. I too recall seeing it and walking through it and thinking how good it was to have a new looking station like that. Definitely a stand-out from nearby stations.
And the thing I noticed most was the amazing sound absorbing material between the express and local tracks. The sound dampening result seemed miraculous.
And the thing I noticed most was the amazing sound absorbing material between the express and local tracks. The sound dampening result seemed miraculous.
I think that was part of why that station was renovated. It was supposed to be some kind of experimental test, or prototype of future renovations, which included soundproofing. I remember my father talking about it once when I was a kid, and I asked him why the station looked like that (a time when the rest of the subway was in shambles). He is/was not a subway-fan (just a daily rider), so it wasn't just a rumor in railfan quarters. The general riding public was even aware of that test at 49th Street.
The fiscal crisis of the 70's killed other stations getting done, or continuation of the test. Someone mentioned that 50th Street on the Broadway-7th Ave line was also supposed to recieve the "49th Street" treatment, but the money ran out before they got to it.
Many people (non-railfans, including one who has told me how much she hates the subway) have commented to me about how nice new 72nd Street headhouse is.
Do New Yorkers appreciate design efforts made on their behalf by transit architects?
I always appreciate skilled industrial design efforts, whether this or the work of a William Gove.
But when you say "appreciate design efforts made on their behalf" are you implying the work was done pro bono?
Mrs. Sparky reports that the elevator from the #7 platform at GCT
is WORKING TODAY!!! >GG<
;-) Sparky
Mrs. Sparky reports that the elevator from the #7 platform at GCT
is WORKING TODAY!!!
Let's see, you posted this about 25 minutes ago, it's probably broken by now.
It would have been operational between 0600 & 0615. That's what time
the Mrs. would be at that location. Have to insert the positive
with the negative for equality. >GG<
;-) Sparky
The elevator at GCT to the #7 platform is still working as of 1700 this afternoon,
reports Mrs. Sparky. She says the lift is smoother,
but the ever present stench is present. She says it is not the
urine odor either, but something STINKS!!! >GG<
;-Sparky
We'll dispatch a crew. :)
Who cares. :)
Obviously not you :0)
I was thinking of something I saw one morning at the 34th-Penn IRT station. The elevator that runs from the shared express platform - yes, the one that took three years to build - was out of service. A man using a wheelchair, actually a wheeled scooter type of thing, must have come to the station, expecting to take the elevator, and got an unpleasant surprise. A police officer and a transit worker were helping the man walk down one of the stairways; he was just barely able to manage it, with their help. Two other cops were carrying his scooter down the stairs. It must have been humiliating to the man and blocked other people from using the stairway at a very busy time.
A good friend and railroad hardware collector has recently come across some items, and asked me for help in identifying what he believes to be some early subway hardware.
There are several locks and keys involved. Some marked NYRT, and others marked TD Co. He thinks that NYRT stands for New York Rapid Transit, and TD Co Transit Development Co. The TD Co key unlocks the NYRT lock.
Is he correct as to what the initials stand for? What branch of the subway or els would these items have pertained to, and how were they used? They appear to be rather old.
Any help in properly identifying these items would be greatly appreciated!
Karl, I believe all those would be old BRT/BMT keys.
Karl,
"A BRT subsidiary called the Transit Development Corporation was set up to attend to such tasks as research into new transit technologies and the construction of new rolling stock for surface and elevated lines." - How to get to Coney Island - Brian J. Cudahy, Fordham University Press, 2002.
Unable thus far to find any reference to NYRT.
Hope the above helps.
;-) Sparky
Sparky, the name of the book is "How We Got to Coney Island." Wonderful reading!
^^^"How We Got to Coney Island." Wonderful reading!"^^^
Yes, marvelous reading that goes way beyond "How We Got to CI".
It covers the formation of the very many underlying segments that
virtually joined together to form the BRT\BMT in Brooklyn and did not go to the "Shore".
;-) Sparky
... some of which is updated from Cudahy's "Malbone Street Wreck" book, BTW.
--Mark
NYRT, TDC and NYM were all shadow companies of the BRT.
Is it a key similar to the current subway keys except the
bit at the bottom jogs to the left of the round shaft?
Jeff, I personally haven't seen the keys or locks. Lee lives in another state. I will pass your question on and hopefully get an answer for you.
Doug, Sparky & Dave, Thanks for your help! I have passed your comments on to Lee. If anyone can add anything further, please let me know.
Thanks Again!
...the other $1.2 billion might be in some other transit-connection category.
Hmmmm. According to its president, our national passenger railroad needs exaclty that much to remain in operation this fiscal year...
:O)
I looked on Amtrak's web site and couldn't find any descriptions of the difference in seating or service. I'm thinking of taking it from WAS to BOS this fall. Acela Regional only takes about 1:20 longer; how does Regional Business Class compare to Express BC? Is the Regional BC that much nicer than unreserved coach? Is Express FC worth almost double the money over Regional BC?
Acela Express has 2 x 1 seating in FC, vs. 2 x 2 in BC. FC also gets you a hot meal at your seat, including beer/wine/soft drinks. I've tried it twice (with the free upgrades that Amtrak gives "Select" members of its frequent rider program). My assessment is that if BC is not that full (i.e. you can get a double to yourself, not much of a wait for the cafe car and lavs), BC is fine and FC is not worth the extra price. If BC is full -- meaning you will definitely have a seatmate, and lines for the cafe and lavs are long -- FC may be worth a few extra dollars, but not (in my opinion) the premium currently charged.
Regional BC is 2 x 2 seating with no meal service. You get free soft drinks by showing you boarding pass at the cafe car. Seats have a tiny bit more leg room. I have found that the BC car in Regional can be very noisy with lots of cell phone users. (If that's an issue for you, note that Acela Experss weekday trains usually have a "quiet car," the first BC car at the front of the train, where cell phones and loud conversations are prohibited. That's another GREAT reason to use AE BC over AR BC or AE FC.)
Agreed. I've taken Acela First Class when I feel like celebrating something or just feel like pampering myself. And it is pretty good.
I suspect that it's more worth it for a longer trip, or when you know you'll be eating on board. Boston-NYC, or NYC-Washington. Philly-Newark or NYC -it's not worth an Acela ticket. Except if you've never taken Acela in your life - in which case you should take Acela, either class, once just so you know what it is and can show your face here on Subtalk. 8-)
After all, is dinner at Le Bec Fin really worth $95 per person?
That's another GREAT reason to use AE BC over AR BC or AE FC.)
And don't forget the outlets that provide DC AC :)
--Mark
Better humor through electricity!
Natch. But AE BC and FC as well as AR BC (but not CC) have DC AC.
I C :)
--Mark
Thanks, everyone. I'll be traveling with my wife so we'd make up the "row." Sounds like AE BC is the better bang for the buck. Does AR BC offer a quiet car?
There's only one BC car on every AR train. And it's definitely not quiet!!
LOL! Thanks, Todd. Where's the Cone of Silence when we need it? *G*
Wow. And I take heat for drinking Starbuck's. Or have I just been spoiled by the bargain-basement airline prices?
Is ACELA ever going to be more affordable?
When I'm taking a trip in the NE corridor, I have to schedule carefully to avoid the expensive Acela runs.
Also, I wish they'd schedule more of a headway between Amtrak arrivals in South Station and Downeaster runs from North Station. In October I had to be Hairbreadth Harry in order to make the Downeaster and then again in order to make the train at South Station. You have abt a half hour to get across town from South to North Station and you have to transfer from the Red to the Green or Orange...I made it with 10 mins. to spare each time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wish i had gotten this out sooner, but a few of us Seashore types are heading to Philadelphia this weekend for a retirement party for one of our own who is leaving SEPTA after MANY years (including yours truly, making the trip from California!)
We are going to have some free time so we will be riding the rails. I haven't done much railfanning in Philly so I could use some suggestions as to where to go and what lines to ride. I have done some of the Market Frankford...actually been at the controls of a #36 Kawasaki out by the end of the line, but that's about all i can remember.
I am leaving tonight so if you could email any suggestions off-line , i would greatly appreciate it!
-Jeremy
Have fun -- wish I could join you -- and think of me in transit-unfriendly Wichita!
Jeremy YOU MUST ride PATCO! (Ben Franklin Bridge Line).
I know! I really want to!
bring your winter gear. it look a major snow storm. it's fun in the snow
bring your winter gear. it look a major snow storm. it's fun in the snow
Hi Guys,
Just a quick question to Sparky and Jeff H. What time does training class start on the first? Trying to figure out what time I need to leave New Bedford. Thanks and hopefully, see you there.
Sparky I have the tape.
Steve Loitsch
Steve,
Arrival between 0930 & 1000 for check in would be desirable.
Class slated to start at 1030.
;-) Sparky
Thanks Sparky, should be there around 9-9:30.
Steve
FYI, Steve is one of about a dozen who are taking the trolley training course at Branford over the next 5 Saturdays.
I won't be there, but several of your Subtalk friends are part of the training crew.
Hopefully they wont beat us up too bad!!!!!!
Steve
The mandatory scavanger hunt for loose electrons starts at 7:00AM - and there's a minimum quota of two Coulombs per trainee!
-Robert King
Nah, they can cash those in for megajoules per fortnight. There's SO many cheats for folks who already HAVE railroad/trolley traction experience and can PROVE it. :)
Gotta LOVE Branford ... school car is only for those who DON'T already have the guns to pass the road test. And the five weeks, if you pay ATTENTION, guarantees you will pass the road test. I was EXTREMELY impressed with the BEYOND the NYCTA PROFESSIONALISM that every operator at Branford demonstrated to cynical Unca Selkirk. Schoolcar at Branford REALLY WORKS. MTA could learn a thing or fifty from the way Branford operates. Seriously.
What impressed me the most is how folks could be DEAD serious and still have fun at the same time and SHARE it with everybody ELSE. Branford's a particularly SPECIAL place because of the people that run it, and RUN it ... they can make know-nothings "expert hands" ont he controller on these field trips with "handle time" ... Unca Lou especially as a "motor instructor" for those who never did it, but wanted to. And others as well ...
Branfor provides the bucket. All ya gotta do when handed the controls is rhyme "bucket" or she's YOURS. :)
Silly me. The Ontario Hydro (or whatever they're calling their various pieces now) fumblesplat doesn't apply to any of you so no need to hunt for electrons.
That's fine if you can get there... As you know, I'm further away than you are...
-Robert King
Of course, it doesn't hurt to have an operable, doted-on R-9, either.:)
She's one sweet ride. :)
I'll second that. It looks and rides great.
FYI, Jay Zee BMT [Jeffrey] is also one of the students.
Steve, we are not that GAWD awful bad as "TIs", why we even qualified a person who works for a BUS COMPANY. And we qualified retired COPS also!!! GOD BLESS the BERA Inspectors
and of course blessing the palm with Alex Hamilton helps also. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Oh great. Now TWU and the Inspector General know. Thanks a LOT! :)
And to think, you guys actually let UNCA SELKIRK run a freaking D train. Multiple times! Have you no for shame? Is no seated passenger safe? Heh. I can imagine you teach the eggs well ... it ain't so hard once you understand where the pedals are, where the compressor cutout switches are, and on rabbit transit not to apply power if the reservoir reads zero or the iron's against you. Extra credit for having stones to grab an overhead pole with 600 volts on it in a blinding rain. Hahahahahahaha ... STUNATZ!
Dunno yet if we'll have the scratch to shape up for this gig yet, hopefully will know a couple of days if we've sold enough IEClean/NSClean/BOClean to pay our bills and escape the hilltop. Been one HADES of an expensive winter up here, since we OWN our "street" and had to pay for its cleaning regardless of our bucks. This winter's been a BEAST and twenty.
I'm *REALLY* hoping we can afford to do this ... just to let other 'talkers know what a lunatic I am in person. Alas, for the second time in a decade, we've got ourselves ANOTHER "bushleague economy" ... alas, I don't own any dividend-bearing oil companies. Can't AFFORD them. :(
You're just looking to sneak into 1689's barn and fire it up.:)
Nah, I'm well behaved. If I'm not INVITED to light up a train, I don't. Ain't 16 anymore ya know. :)
But yeah, would like to stroke her even if she's NOT coming out to play. Given my TA sentence with Arnines, you know how I am. I could pat those puppies and make them smile for me. Aside from my "career killer" consist, I got along better with Arnines than most crews and RCI's ... I *knew* them on the road through hard times, and almost never needed an RCI unless it was a matter of obtaining the necessary BO tag to drop on my TMO to PROVE that it wasn't *MY* fault the dog was late. Heh.
But RCI's and I got along nicely, because once I *got* one, we'd go "do" the problem and they'd be MIGHTY impressed at my understanding of what was required to make the car work. I also had the sense not to cross job titles ... and that's why myself and the ball pein squad got along so nicely, and I learned *SO* many tricks of the mighty Arnines in mutual "brotherhood" (something TWU's obviously chitcanned since) ... once upon a time, *ALL* of us on the road and everynody else all the way up to just shy of Ronan were in the *SAME* God-forsaken ARMY. :(
Well to be honest, I've lost respect for some TWU members, still waiting for the palm blessing from a C/R I qualified in 2002. I served as an Inspector last year and should of flunkit the C/R, just for obessive verbosity, even if I could not find fault with his operating. >GG<
;-) Sparky
Hey what do you have against C/R's? Anyway next year I will try to make the classes.
Pelham Bay Dave,
Nothing against C/Rs per say, only against "Transit Professionals"
whom think they know everything and tell the "Instructor" so.
Had a TSS in the class of 2002, one of the better students I've
worked with. BERA and the TA are not identical. So that C/R
better be ready to shine this Trolley Service Supervisors shoes.
Also did you enjoy the company of the foamers last evening.
I have two private emails on that and it's only 0600. Time to
get my ars in gear and pick up my passenger off the first (R) and
off to Branford. >GG<
;-) Sparky
["And we qualified retired COPS also!!!"]
I don't know if you were referring to me Sparky, but a small technicality. I wasn't retired yet when I took the class. I retired in the summer. :)
Feh ... as long as you carry your sidearm to deal with recalcitrant geese, we're all set. "Shoot to maim" *is* authorized. :)
ROTFLMFAO
:-) Sparky
O.K. almost retired cop for the Sarge. Also wasn't Ed R in your class
retired?
;-) Sparky
See you in the morning.
Philadelphia's Market-Frankford line's trains consistently operate and around 55-60 mph through the "express" run eastbound from 30th Street to 15th Street in Center City.
But the westbound run often slows to a crawl, tiptoeing past the 18th and 22nd Street "local" (Subway-Surface Car) stations.
This phebomenon is relatively consistent. Does anyone know why?
the W/B trains are heading down a long downgrade. Before the new signaling was put in you could see about 4 timer signals holding them to 25-30 or so mph. On the other side there was a single timed signal held at red at the bottom of the shorter e/b grade. There block started just beyond the platform and most T/O's would crawl at like 5-10 mph and have the red signal clear while the train was still far up the grade. the T/O would then peg it and hit 55-60. Now with the new CSS I believe that even at the top of the e/b grade the trains get a "design speed" code, however, because the old signaling starts at 15th St the T/O has to make a safety stop before the 15th St X-locking which totally kills the speed. With the old signaling the train would hit the platform at like 40-45.
I understand now. Easier to run the train faster uphill; you don't want to lose control of it barrelling downhill.
PS: Check out my signaling diagrams in the MFL section.
Have you ridden recently? The cab signals are now on-line from 69th street to 5th, and that stretch is *much* faster now.
Its not much faster, only a little faster in certain places. Most of the line was straight untimed ABS where the chief limiting factor was station stops.
heypaul's favorite newspaperman is doing research for a new article and he is posting on the Strappies board asking for information.
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=002952
It reads as follows:
"hi --
it's randy kennedy from the new york times, once again asking for some help on a subway column i'm thinking of doing. more often lately with trains more crowded, i've come across conductors who use hard-line tactics to get the doors closed. they yell, they threaten, they shame, they say they'll take the train out of service or call the cops. they seem to take delays personally.
have any of you come across conductors like that? or ones who use other kind of persuasion, reverse psychology, etc., to try to get everyone inside and speed the ride??
any help would be greatly appreciated and will probably end up in the pages of the nyt... if you've got stories you'd like to tell me about over the phone, you can e-mail me at kennedyr@nytimes.com and let me know how to contact you. or call me at 212-556-3749.
thanks in advance.
rk "
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I think some of our fellow Sub-Talkers should get into the act on this as well of those who happen to be Conductors (for equal/rebuttal time).
I emailed him and told him this is hardly anything new...I heard warnings like those constantly during the late 70s and all through the 80s. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. I also told him that similar tactics are used on occasion in both Boston and DC, but they aren't nearly as commonplace as in NYC because the riders in both those places are generally more cooperative and less selfish than a huge number of NYC passengers.
I think Randy should consult heypaul as it has been at least three long months since there was a story on heypaul in the New York Times. Another one is long overdue ;)
You're right Doug. I am due for another feature article. I'm debating in my mind whether to spill my guts out and tell how I feel when I read most of the posts here at Subtalk. I think this place has turned into fantasy land.
I think this place has turned into fantasy land.
HEY! I resemble that remark!
BTW: Did I show you my latest efforts at mapmaking?
Elias
Well, Heypaul isn't going to get it this time around, another subtalker, me, will get his attention and spotlight when I show him my second avenue subway project. I am sorry Heypaul, but my subway project, needs some attention. *puts heypaul on a R-1/9 to happyland*
Christopher... You're a good "kid" and you've put a lot of hard work into your 2nd Ave plans... I'd be very happy to see Randy Kennedy give your project more exposure...
Heypaul, what about 'MY' Franklin Avenue Shuttle. Doesn't it deserve some attention?
No. It's gotten more 15 minutes of fame than freaking Andy Warhol. :)
LOL!
It got all of its (see, Todd, see :) :) attention in the 1990s :)
--Mark
Part of the problem is that some New Yorkers are stuck in the era of "deferred maintenance." MDBF was about three feet, and constant breakdowns were the norm. Every train could potentially be the last that would move for quite a while, so everybody would try to cram into anything that moved.
While the subway system still has plenty of problems, the MDBF is much more than three feet. There's really no excuse to hold a train (and 2,000+ passengers) to wait for one more person, especially when that person is still figuring out what "insufficient fare" means.
Anyway, all this is moot. Randy Kennedy will just write whatever Straphangers tells him to, if he hasn't already.
Philadelphia comprehensive high school seniors have one more month to turn in essays.
Paid and mentored summer internships at SEPTA and St. Christopher's Hospital for Children are up for grabs. Akso, second place prizes of $250 each will be awarded.
For details, point your browsers at:
http://www.philaedfund.org/collegeaccess/Proofread%20Contest%20Flyer.htm
I know that subway conductors wield wide powers over the operation of a subway train, but is threatening passengers one of those powers?
Scene: Last night, approximately 6:30 p.m. Downtown R-62 "3" train at Fulton Street. The train was pretty crowded. I got in and moved to the center of the car. Suddenly a loud voice came over the PA, saying "Stop holding the doors in the rear or I'll take this train out of service!"
Can a conductor take a train out of service because he thinks passengers are being uncooperative?
Coincidence or something more?
SPOOKY
No, but ....
After multiple failed attempts to get indication in a zone (especially during rush hours), a C/R may take a train out of service for "No Indication." Control will allow the discharge and request the C/R to attempt to fix the problem en-route. If problem can be fixed, the train goes back in service.
I wouldn't consider that a threat to passengers. That is to say, "threat" usually means a danger of physical harm or injury.
True, it is not a threat - just mild coercion.
In fact, definition of "threat" from Merriam-Webster:
"an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage"
Source:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=threats
Well, it may fall under "evil", but that depends on whether or not you believe that retribution (an eye for an eye) is considered evil or just, because that's what this boils down to: if you waste my time, I'll waste yours (by making you wait for the next train).
Well, with the average subway rider using the mentality "this is the last train that will ever run to my destination, I must get on no matter how crowded it is", I think the proposition of taking a train out of service might be a threat.
I heard somewheres that the rules have been changed with respect to what conductors can say over the PA when there are door-holders. They're no longer allowed to say anything that might tend to identify a specific door-holder to the other passengers. For instance, it's now verboten to say "Will the tall man with the denim jacket near the rear of the train please stop holding the doors." That's considered to be too "confrontational."
Can't swear to the accuracy of this, but it sounds logical.
How about:
"May I ask the passengers near the rear of the train to persuade the the tall man with the denim jacket to stop holding the doors?"
And then "Hey, moron in the jacket, let go of the door..."
:0)
I say kick him off the train tell him to keep his hands off the doors and little women! Unlike the doors though, most little women dont mind. :-(
In the days before intercoms/PA systems on the trains, we actually had to walk the cars and "go find the problem" ... often accompanied by our trusty yellow piece of wood. Would you believe that I've had door screwers in the tenth car that let go ONLY when I actually got back there? It's too easy with a PA system.
But in the "battle of wits" conductors CAN assist themselves by REFUSING to reopen or recycle the doors. If conductors get together in solidarity until it's FIRMLY established that the doors will NOT reopen, EVER ... then perhaps we can finally get past this silliness. Every time a moron wins the battle, they'll do battle again.
I think I said this once before here, about not reopening. The passengers must be "taught" that once the doors close, they're closed; but during the day and rush hours should this be done.
I've seen conductors do this at late night, where its really not so good. Personally on the late nights coming from 240th I'll grab the doors on the A coming from the 1. You gotta admit that the TA is great at arranging the across the platform transfers, but with other transfers, they're horrible. I mean to have both the A and 1 arrive at 59 Street at 1:59AM at a reasonably busy station (I see at least 30 others running for the stairs to the A from the downtown 1) is stupid. But they make a good effort to make sure D riders who are on the D only because they got there too late for the A are able to get a cross-platform transfer. And the C/R usually isn't too pleasant about it.
On the other side however, it is in the TA rulebook that a conductor "will make every effort to avoid a train door making contact with a passenger." Refusing to reopen the doors is not making an effort to avoid contact.
Its a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation.
Absolutely ... and if the TA was willing to accept a conductor saying "I'm late because people held the doors" without being looked at askance, then conductors would be a LOT more "friendly" to such situations. In all sincerity though, I couldn't possibly find fault with a conductor not knowing what's happening on another line that happens to be a transfer point, and if I JUST missed a train because it closed in my face when I got to the platform, I'd be unhappy but them's the breaks. And yeah, I worked nights so I know the drill. But look at the bright side, you USUALLY got a seat at those hours when the next train DID show up 20 minutes later.
But people will do that because it WORKS ... when there's a universal reality that once the doors close, TS ... it MIGHT stop. Back when I worked the TA (as someone else pointed out) MY train may very well have been the LAST train ... I still didn't open up once I'd closed up and heaven forfend indication was passed because the doors closed. No WAY are you allowed to open up then, your only option is to pull the cord and hope it actually stops the train. I wish people would realize that, and be mindful that hand in the door tricks COULD result in their DEATH ... but since a lot of people don't have any sense (and they're legally protected against harvesting by Darwin) about all I can recommend is that road conductors be mindful that reopening the doors for any boob who insists on holding up the train only encourages them to do it again.
TA requires conductors to have a watch and USE it, playing "beat the clock" ... dwell time is a limited offer, and it should be ENFORCED.
I take it you flipped the cab breakers before leaving your post if you had to do so.
Absolutely. And the drum switch. Back then, you'd have to walk the train often for various stuck doors and other maladies. And on occasion to wave your finger in their face as a sign that you were not only NOT going to open up, but that you spotted their face. :)
[How about: "May I ask the passengers near the rear of the train to persuade the the tall man with the denim jacket to stop holding the doors?"]
No, because it's still "calling out" the offending party. Better to ask EVERYBODY in that car or section to stand clear.
>>>Can a conductor take a train out of service because he thinks passengers are being uncooperative? <<<<
He/She surely can.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's not a threat -- that's a promise! :)
The only threatening C/R is Mark W. LOL!
Absolutely they can, I had to do that a couple of times in my short TA service. I note Randy Kennedy is fishing for whiners over on another place - and he'll likely get plenty of them. I've explained this a few times here in the past, but here's the scoop ...
The conductor is responsible for keeping the train ON TIME. If a train arrives at its terminal late, the conductor gets hung by the yardarm - possibly written up, possibly even taken out of service for retraining or discipline if it happens frequently.
Every time some yutz holds the doors on a train, that train becomes late. Conductor faces discipline. At the same time, doors can fail so about the only thing a conductor has (aside from doing their best to "pursuade" morons to let go of the doors) is calling it a "mechanical problem" (no indication) and emptying the train entirely. I had to make that decision several times. And it was EVERYBODY off the train, period. Of course, once the train was emptied, the indication fairy smiled and we accepted a fresh set of "customers" who had SEATS waiting for them in rush hour at the very next stop.
But until the day comes that they don't hang conductors for a late train, if that train is already a little late owing to multiple situations of door holders at several stops along the way, you can expect that the conductor's patience wears ever thinner with each "tick tock" they face as they head towards "tardy" ...
The TA *really* needs to start cracking down on the PUBLIC *or* ease off on conductors if they report late with an explanation of "morons holding the doors" ... can't have it both ways. But yes, the conductor is "captain of the ship" and *CAN* enforce the "either the door closes or everybody gets off" policy. In the name of political correctness, they're apparently no longer allowed to leave their position, go to the car in question and kick some butt like WE used to be able to do. :)
[In the name of political correctness, they're apparently no longer allowed to leave their position, go to the car in question and kick some butt like WE used to be able to do. :)]
Hey, Kev....that's not a good idea these days as you don't know who's packing what in the subway -- you could end up with a 9mm in your face -- and from a 12 year-old to boot!.
And what makes ya think that conductor ain't packing? Like they say in the Looto ads, "hey, ya never know." :)
Yeah, I'm always packin' mini-nuclear weapons cause 'ya never know'...I'll take it nuclear on ya arse! :)
These ARE republican times. :)
I *do* understand your point though ...
Nuke 'em till they transfer to the local.
Amen...
One afternoon while working the #1 line at 14 Street the guy refused to let the door go and by the time he did the door got stuck in the pocket. We spent 15 Minutes in the station before Control ordered us to Discharge the train. We went back in service at 168 Street after the RCI took a look at the problem.
I have seen Police officers take door holders off the train and write up a ticket. They think there slick by letting go after the cop walks towards the train but I always reopen for the cop.
Yep ... EVERY conductor going back to 1904 has stories to tell about the MORONS who hold doors. And for someone in THAT much of a hurry, that 15 minutes musta been a REAL treat. :)
Hate to sound callous, but the former conductor in me says "good for them ALL" ... next time someone holds a door, the beatings might commence. That was one thing that made me CRAZY on the railroad. And of course we had no PA with which to plead with them years ago ... I actually had to walk cars to undo what they did. And the Arnines were notorious for blowing seals when you did that, causing the door leaf to just hang there half open. No opening or closing would make it move when it jammed, it was either brute strength, getting people out of their seats to open the panels behind them or go under the seat to cut it out, then walk all the way back. Agggh.
Needless to say, a 15 minute delay or worse was a way of life. Then you had to face the TMO at the other end like it was MY fault. But for "civilians" maybe this helps explain my own attitudes when it comes to "the geese" ... as I've often said, the "riding public" should be mighty appreciative that train crews are NOT issued sidearms. :)
What was this seal on the R-1/9s you're referring to? I was under the impression that air-operated doors could withstand abuse better than electrics.
Nonsense. :)
When the rubber gaskets on the sliders failed, they'd hiss and nothing would happen as far as the doors went. When you and I were alone on 1689, I showed you the mechanisms (once I remembered which seat the lockouts were under) and the panel opening where yuou could push them and where the tappet valves were, along with the cutout to lock the doors in place ...
Air doors were MUCH more forceful than the electrics of the time, but a determined moron could screw them up. With the Arnines, there was a seal in the push cylinder that could let the air leak out if it failed, and when that happened, the door was scrooched. That's what the TA paid me to detect, push closed, flip the lever on the piston and lockout with its mate by pulling the red lever under the longitudial seat. I showed ya, if you remember where it all was ...
OTHER Subtalkers out for that field trip with Unca Selkirk weren't so interested in the nuts and bolts like YOU were ... you're a SICK puppy, GLAD to have met yer face. :)
Gee, I'm speechless.:)
Thanks for the compliment. It was nice to meet you, too. And Nancy.
Eddie S. showed me the levers and other goodies under one of the seats in 1980. If we're both at Shoreline again someday, I'll have to take a refresher course.
Now you know how I feel about the R-1/9s. If something really interests me, I try to find out as much as I can about it.
Heh. I *really* appreciate your torture while I was going through my own "where IS it?" stuff ... heh. But enjoyed the HELL out of someone as interested in the minutiae of Arnines as you were - to ME it was JUST a job, things learned, things to be dealt with on the road and if I *had* to call an RCI for something I couldn't fix, but was SUPPOSED TO, then SKWOO being LATE, my arse would have been int he sling for failing to detect and cure a problem I had been TRAINED to fix on the road as a "Conductor, revenue" ... certain problems had BETTEr be fixed by the conductor or motorman, if an RCI came out and it was the fault of a dropped breaker, or an easy fix, the RCI *AND* your TMO would cut you a new blowhole. Then put you on the street for being too stupid to breathe. :)
I made a friend on Subtalk Day, in all sincerity.
THANK YA! I'm sure other tubtalkers wonder who's gonna become whose biatch here. Heh. But seriously, it waws MOST amusing meeting someone who CARED about the nuances of waking up an Arnine from no voltage and all the weirdnesses of the car. To ME, it was a touch of old times, waking them up in CIY for a put-in, and you see how schoolcar made what I did for a living on the railroad a TRUE obsession in every nuance, right down to the roof vents ... but to ME, that morning was just like nbeing back in CIY, pressed to deliver a put-in on TIME regardless of what the consist FELT like presenting. :)
GHOD, I love 1689. (moo)
It all seemed to come right back for you. If I hadn't known better, I would have thought you were still plying your trade for the TA.
I haven't conducted in front of a group of musicians in years, but it would come back in a second if I were to do so now. Now if I were to try to ski again, that's another story.
I wasn't sorry one bit if the riders don't know how to act they should stand on the platform on a nice 90 degree day and wait for the next In Service train.
[Can a conductor take a train out of service because he thinks passengers are being uncooperative?]
Holding doors damages the door mechanisms, and thus qualifies as VANDALISM. That should be grounds for removing a train from service.
Perhaps they can take the soon to be unemployed tokenbooth clerks, arm them with wooden batons, to smack doorholders on the knuckles or push them into the cars as they do in Japan during rush hour. Oh for the days when the C/R would just chop people with doors.
Proudly served ... if your reflexes were fast enough, you could work your fingers from the triggers to the caps and back fast enough to induce bleeding. "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" or "sucker punch with a 200 pound door." :)
Don't forget the "Thunder Thighs" part.:)
Did you ever make a door holding-related announcement on the R-32s?
The FEW times I got a 32, I'd make it a point of "move it or lose it" ... if anyone was on the subways in fall/winter 1970 and heard that (along with "the doors are open, feel free to use them") then you were on *MY* train. I guess that's why the TMO would go out of his way to make me leap ahead or fall behind my normal intervals so I had an Arnine. Both as conductor, and later in UMD. :)
And as to "thunder thighs," not me ... I got NOOKIE in my monkey suit regularly ... heh. I was 19 and jail bait as far as most of my "seducers" went. Got me PLENTY a cab blessing long before Hep B&C and AIDS ruined the whole point of BUYING a uniform. Heh. NYCTA was a nookie train. Over and over. heh.
Didn't you say that all that climbing onto and off of those step plates as a conductor give you thunder thighs?
probably did somewhere, but "thunderthighs" is used commonly to describe people OUT of shape ... on the Arnines, I could clench my legs and crush my own ... mooooooo ... and THEN some, including buses. :)
Aside from being a bass guitarist (Like Cathy Valentine of the GoGo's) there's no better exercise. :)
You'd love these radio spots they play for Keystone, a ski resort out here. I think of you whenever I hear one - two guys playing cows with lots of mooing in the background. They even punctuate their dialogue with moos.
Damned cowpones ... :)
The funniest part is when one of the guys wonders how a cow is supposed to dial a phone. Well, use a touch tone phone, anyway.
Conductors are not allowed to say anything other than "Ladies and Gentlemen do not hold the train doors. Please release the doors so the train can move." Source: The Blue Book.
A$$wipes ... sorry, the "Sayings of Chairman Wow" date back to the redsky Chinesesky ... sometimes ya just gotta say, "Go ahead, HOLD the door - we ain't going anywhere, and thanks to YOU, nobody on this TRAIN will either" ... For those of you who would LIKE this train to move, please convince that moron to let go of the doors.
Yeah, I think I know now why I kept getting reshifted to consists that didn't have an intercom. Nothing breaks up a boring day on the railroad better than a carload of geese beating the QWAP out of a moron that won't let the train move. Yeah, Unca Selkirk grew up in Da Bronx. Can ya tell? :)
Hey, all I said was that's what the Blue Book allowed you to say. Like you, I let the doors speak for themselves. I wasn't much for talking into the PA anyway. Try "snapping" the doors on an R143... KERASH that's a sweet sound for today's equipment (although I'm sure still nothing compared to the days of old).
I had a guy complain to me once on the G about how I hurt his shoulder hitting him with the doors. With an R46 (we all know how slow and softly those doors close). All I said in return was "You wuss." :)
Hahahahaha ... I wanna have your baby. :)
Yeah, "sayings of the committee" (formerly sayings of the chairperson) had a wussy texture ... we got a "guidebook" and a folded map to carry ourselves ... "whoopss, got sucked into the vortex between the cars as I stepped down, could I have another? What do you MEAN you don't have any maps? Whaddya MEAN, "improvise?"
Ah, the TA of 1970/71 ... heh. If it moved, not ONLY did you SALUTE it, you FONDLED it. (grin)
You're going to have to give one of your spiels on 6688 next time we're at Shoreline.:)
Mess with the doors, and I'll be pleased to show you the "Rock'em Sock'em" move. :)
You mean the old triggers-to-caps-in-less-than-a-second trick? I hope I don't fall for it.:)
On 6688, it's a matter of flicking the lever from close to open.
The fastest was the original 32's ... place fingers appropriately and hit your pair of switches, you could get 4-5 kicks to the head per second - I understand that after GOH, you can't really beat the geese with the doors like it was prior - the faucet style jobbies were slower. I *liked* the pushbuttons though. The Arnines required a hell of a technique to rock the doors since the pistons took a bit of time to change direction.
IIRC the doors on the R-32s open and closed at roughly the same rate of speed then as they do now.
I wonder how the doors on the BMT standards held up to door holding. Although they open and closed a tad on the slow side, once in a while I'd see an improperly adjusted leaf whip open and slam shut, R-10 style.
Dunno the details of what happened when they went for the cyclops mod, but was told by folks on the railroad nowadays that you can't get four cycles per second out of them like you used to. Probably mods to the control circuits. The 32's ain't the same as they used to be. Couldn't get OVER all the crap that's in the cabs of them nowadays. Woof. Amazing there's room for a TWU brother or sister in there. :)
Here's a news story with the details: Albuquerque announces $700M light rail transit plans.
I was just in Albuquerque in December, and I was thinking it needed a good rail system. Of course, I think that for every city I visit...
Mark
You and me both...
Maybe it was just because Denver and Salt Lake City have systems in operation and Phoenix is working on one that I had to imagine a light rail system in Albuquerque. Or maybe it was because I saw the attempts that the city ws making to try to make in reviving hteir downtown, including construction of lots of downtown residences that made me think good transit needs to be part of the plan. Or maybe it was that I was visiting and had no car, or that I was disappointed that the trip gave me no railfanning opportunity.
Whatever the reason, I was thinking about a light rail system for Albuquerque, but I'm surprised to read how soon they want to implement the plan. I would have thought it was a long way off looking at the website of New Mexico Rails, the local transit advocacy group.
Actually, in some places you can still see the trolley tracks on Central Avenue (old Route 66) in patches here and there where they haven't been paved over yet.
Mark
Mark -- Stunned as you were to hear that I lived in Albuquerque, too (where haven't I lived? Where haven't I laid mental rail tracks?) the only advantage Albuquerque has over Jackson is sheer size and speed of growth. I can't imagine their freeway traffic problem even at 800,000 people is insurmountable. The density is appallingly low for supporting transit, and the original tracks were for the north and south Rio Grande valleys, which would now make them the high- and low-end socioeconomic target markets. Coronado Mall and Central are completely sprawl-oriented and would have to be fed by bus. I'm wondering if this would be voted down and they'd substitute articulated buses for rush hour, maybe a Lomas Blvd. diamond lane.
ABQ is one of those cities I lived in for 6 weeks (school at Kirtland AFB).
Yes it can support a light rail system. But it needs to serve the Valley first, then the Height. People in the valley need dependable transportation. (The old ATSF yard makes a great storage yard)
Definitely a rail system alone isn't enough, and that goes for any city, not just Albuquerque. The rail system has to be complimented with sound urban planning for the kind of land use that makes transit work. To some degree Albuquerque is trying to do this. A lot of new medium-density residences have been built within walking distance of downtown. Older buildings downtown are being coverted to luxury condos, as has the old high school just next to downtown. Some things still need to be done. There still aren't regular businesses like grocery stores downtown to serve the new residents. What's more, Albuquerque would have to foster transit-oriented development in other neighborhoods along the route of the proposed rail line.
As for the route choice, it looks like the same old story. The poorer neighborhoods need it most, and their less-sprawling neighborhoods are better suited for transit. But they're not the ones with the political clout to get a rail line to their neighborhoods. It sounds like scenarios that have playe dout in Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Charlotte (though I think poorer residents in Charlotte have been more successful in lobbying for transit parity).
Mark
The real irony is, all these cities need *residential* parity, for lots of reasons. A balanced transit system in both the Heights *and* the Valleys (north and south) would mix it back up and bring it back down from the mountains and the desert, but only if the city has the political will to put things like businesses (grocery stores, smaller schools, high density residential) in *all* the neighborhoods. Will I live to see it? With New Urbanism, maybe.
Where would it go? From the tumbleweed on the left to the saguaro cactus on the right?
LMAO!
"I was just in Albuquerque in December, and I was thinking it needed a good rail system. Of course, I think that for every city I visit... "
I hear that. I remember exploring around the old CRRNJ trackage around Bayonne. Got to see the old W. 8th Street station. Even boarded the Cranford Shuttle from there to Elizabeth once. But I remember seeing how the tracks were basically just going to waste. All those linear neighborhoods up from Bayonne...missing their spine line.
It amazes me that I've lived long enough to see a brand spanking new passenger railroad service get reborn on that line. That, and the ferries. I used to lament the fact that I just missed the era of connecting railroad ferries. So the good luck Fairy granted me yet another request.
hold your breath on dat' one folks !!
that town is too dammed slow to do this one !!
Train Had 800 Passengers On Board
Posted: 8:26 a.m. EST February 27, 2003
TOKYO -- A passenger train service in Japan says it's apparently a first -- the driver of a bullet train falling asleep at 170 mph.
West Japan Railway says the train with 800 passengers on board was on autopilot and came to a stop about 300 feet short of where it was supposed to.
When station officials went to see what had happened, they found the driver sound asleep.
Nobody was hurt, but local police say the bullet-train driver might have violated some sort of railway law.
Driver Falls Asleep At Controls Of Japanese Bullet Train
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
"Nobody was hurt, but local police say the bullet-train driver might have violated some sort of railway law."
So they'll have to research this before they decide what to do next.
Hmmm.
:0)
I'm surprised the racket that ATSP was ringing in the cab didn't wake him up. :)
I'm not. people can block out noises if they want. I actually fell asleep at the Milwaukee Metalfest when I was there this summer. It's not hard, just curl up and get comfy and close your eyes.
Anyway, my guess is he's fired, at the minimum. They barelyt tolerate late trains there. IIRC, one got in trouble a few years ago because he left the controls to fetch his hat (which they'rerequired to wear all the time).
Yeah, they take things MIGHTY seriously over there. And MTA has adopted many of their "regulations" ... I understand that RTO is still struggling with the problem of issuing swords so that RTO employees can self-skewer if they don't salute the board properly and pray to its ancestors. :)
There are thousands of peple who live right outside Els that have no problems falling asleep with the trains rumbling every 10 minutes right outside their windows.
--Mark
When I lived at 204th and Webster, the headlights blared RIGHT into my second floor bedroom JUST before they diverged onto the curve into 204th, about 10 feet outside my bedroom. From an adjacent room, the gates of the platform catwalk were 18 inches away. :)
When I moved upstate, I couldn't sleep because of the lack of the train every 8 minutes. Know it ALL too well. As Jake told Elwood, "the trains go by so often, you won't notice." (grin)
My wife had a friend of hers from Brooklyn come over for a weekend many years ago. He could not sleep the entire weekend because the crickets kept him up!
--Mark
Yeah, same story up here - it's *VERY* quiet here. Since we've still got about 20-something inches of snow on the ground, them crickets are quiet still too. Heh. What's amusing though is you can hear the trains from ten miles away. But yeah, city folks find it *too* quiet around here. Makes them nuts. :)
I know the feeling. My in-laws live in Briarcliff Manor. They asked me about 10 years ago if I wanted to move up there. I said it was too quiet. When I was up there last May their neighborhood was buiding up and I thought it was getting congested. But was houses. No stores.
Wow ... around here, Briarcliff (used to hang there, worked at WRNW-FM in their "heyday") is North Bronx by comparison. The traffic noice from Rte9 and some of the other major highways through there still create a buzz. But I suppose it's still quiet compared to da city. Up here, you can hear gnats "doing it" ... heh.
When I moved out of the Bronx (161 and Jerome) I missed the El. It was too quiet in Los Angeles!
Train Had 800 Passengers On Board
Posted: 8:26 a.m. EST February 27, 2003
TOKYO -- A passenger train service in Japan says it's apparently a first -- the driver of a bullet train falling asleep at 170 mph.
West Japan Railway says the train with 800 passengers on board was on autopilot and came to a stop about 300 feet short of where it was supposed to.
When station officials went to see what had happened, they found the driver sound asleep.
Nobody was hurt, but local police say the bullet-train driver might have violated some sort of railway law.
Driver Falls Asleep At Controls Of Japanese Bullet Train
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
When was the Intervale Avenue station destroyed by fire (date) and when was it reopened?
Why do announcers, after a problem has passed, say "After an earlier incident at X Street, Y trains are running"
This is slightly confusing. When you hear the first few words, you think there's something still wrong and the whole sentence assumes that the trains are only running because of an earlier incident.
They should say instead "In SPITE of an earlier incident, X trains are now running on their normal route."
You're assuming that announcers, or more likely their script writers, should have command of the English language.
You're assuming that announcers, or more likely their script writers, should have command of the English language.
And, most importantly, their audience.
What exactly is wrong with the phrasing? Service changes during an incident and is restored afterwards. The purpose of the announcement is to inform people who waited throughout the contingency that service is back in shape, and also to inform new arrivals about residual delays. If you change the tense and substitute for "incident", the resulting sentences wouldn't raise an eyebrow in, say, a newspaper story:
X service was suspended during the police investigation.
X service resumed after the police investigation.
For all of you who complain that the DC Metro doesn't open early enough, maybe this will make you like the system more. How they will do this when they need to make budget cuts is beyond me.
For immediate release:
February 27, 2003
Metro’s Board Operations Committee discusses possible expansion of Metrorail hours of operations
At today’s Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) Board of Directors Operations Committee meeting, Metro staff presented a menu of options for a possible expansion of Metrorail’s hours of operations, designed to increase Metro’s level of service to the Washington metropolitan area. A possible expansion of hours would not take effect until the new fiscal year begins on July 1, 2003.
"At a time when we are seriously contemplating readjusting Metro’s fare structure, I think we need to justify any increases by offering better value for the fare dollar," said Jim Graham, Metro’s Board Chairman. "That’s why I am proposing that we consider these expanded hours."
The options presented today are as follows:
Extend Metrorail Hours Until 3 a.m. on Friday and Saturday Nights
Extend late night weekend service by one additional hour from 2 a.m. to 3 a.m.
Open Metrorail an Hour Early at 7 a.m. on Saturday and Sunday Mornings
Open the rail system one hour earlier (7 a.m. instead of 8 a.m.) on Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Open Metrorail a Half-Hour Early at 5 a.m. on Weekday Mornings from the End of the Rail Lines
Open the rail system one half hour earlier from the end of the line stations by converting non-revenue trains to revenue service. This component would change how Metro initiates service from opening at 5:30 a.m., throughout the system by opening at 5 a.m. at the ends of each line and 5:30 a.m., at downtown stations.
If Metro’s Board of Directors endorse all three options for expanding rail service, it would expand Metrorail’s hours of operation by 6.5 hours a week, (a 5 percent service increase) and increase ridership by an expected 1.1 million riders per year for a minimal cost of $3.0 million (2 percent).
"Board Chairman Mr. Graham was an original sponsor of the extended weekend Metro hours, first from midnight to 1 a.m., and eventually to our current Friday and Saturday night closing time of 2 a.m.," said Richard A. White, Metro’s CEO. "For the last three fiscal years, we have met and exceeded ridership expectations. By staying open later on Friday and Saturday, it has allowed more people to enjoy the benefits of the Washington, D.C., area for a longer period of time, who in turn, have provided a significant economic growth to downtown and the entire metropolitan region."
When Metro first extended its late-night hours of operation in fiscal year 2000, it was done incrementally — first staying open until 1 a.m., then 2 a.m. In the last three fiscal years, ridership met, and exceeded, the original projections of 7,400 for average weekend ridership. Metro recorded 9,200 average weekend riders in fiscal year 2000, 11,500 in fiscal year 2001, and 12,500 in fiscal year 2002.
"We proposed a menu of options aimed at providing more service for our loyal and dedicated Metrorail customers," noted Jim Hughes, Metro’s Director of Operations Planning and Administrative Support. "Depending on what option the Board chooses, and they could choose all three, our customers would be rewarded with additional safe, convenient, and reliable rail service that have grown accustomed to for almost 27 years."
I like that. It will serve early morning commuters better, take care of weekend partyers better and help night-shift workers a little, too. And why should we wait till 8AM for the first Saturday morning train?
Good news. Hopefully this proposal will be implemented.
washingtonpost.com
Metro Track Blamed in Derailment
Section Not Made For Regular Use
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 27, 2003; Page A01
The section of Blue Line track where a six-car train derailed last month was not designed for everyday use and violated Metro's standards because it lacked metal rail guards meant to keep cars on the track, Metro's top safety official said yesterday.
In addition, Metro's immediate response to the accident was flawed and could have made the situation worse, according to an investigation of the derailment.
When the operator of Train 410 told Metro headquarters his train had jumped the tracks, the train controller suggested that the operator restart the train and try to move it to the next station -- a directive that violated Metro rules and could have damaged the train and injured riders, said Fred Goodine, the Metro assistant general manager who oversaw the investigation.
The operator couldn't restart the train, however, and the 60 passengers were later evacuated by rescue workers; no one was hurt.
Goodine was scheduled to release his written findings today, but Metro Chief Executive Officer Richard A. White postponed release indefinitely. "The CEO has made a judgment there's additional information we need to complete this investigation," Metro spokesman Ray Feldmann said. "There are still pieces of the puzzle that are missing."
Last night, after inquiries about the investigation from The Washington Post, Metro officials decided to brief the board of directors today in a private session.
The Jan. 20 derailment took place about 8:20 p.m., moments after the train left the platform at the Reagan National Airport station, headed toward Crystal City. The train was traveling on a stretch of track that was designed to store cars temporarily but that had been used for daily service since November because a construction project had made the regular inbound track, Track 1, unavailable.
Metro officials didn't check to see whether the center track was engineered to handle routine traffic -- trains running every three minutes -- before they pressed it into service, Goodine said.
If the track had been designed for daily use, Metro's safety standards would have required a rail guard -- a metal lip that holds a rail car's steel wheels in place and prevents them from leaving the track. The track had such a guard only on a short section near a switch.
Metro had used the storage track for regular service without a problem in the past, giving subway managers confidence that they could do so without trouble, Goodine said.
Goodine confirmed that at least one track supervisor noticed heavy wear on the rail of the storage track shortly after daily trains began running and that he told a manager about his concerns by early December. Nothing happened.
"We're aware those statements were made; we're finding out why they went unheeded," Goodine said.
Investigators looked into why Train 410 derailed after trains made thousands of trips along the same track. They found a series of factors that contributed to the derailment.
Earlier in the day, two track inspectors noticed wear on the rail and installed a gauge rod, a piece of metal that acts as a brace, Goodine said. The track wear was within accepted standards and was not bad enough to require rail replacement.
The rod forces the rails closer together, making it more likely that a derailed car would swing further off the track bed than it might otherwise, Goodine said.
Another factor was how the train moved on the track. Just before the derailment, the train passed through a switch and was coming out of a curve on the storage track to rejoin Track 1 when it stopped momentarily because of a problem with automatic train control -- a common occurrence on Metro trains.
As the train restarted and lurched onto straight rail, the last car was still on curved track that had been braced, and the jerking motion caused the rear wheels to pop off the track, Goodine said.
The train continued to move, and the derailed last car bashed into the safety railing and sheared off the cover of the electrified third rail. Meanwhile, air gushed from a hose connected to the brakes on the last car, causing the train to stop automatically 620 feet from the point of derailment.
Train controllers in Metro's downtown headquarters noticed a problem with Train 410 on their electronic monitoring screens and called the operator to ask what was happening, Metro officials have said. As the train operator spoke to a controller, a passenger on the last car used the intercom to tell the operator that the train had derailed.
The operator relayed that information to the controller, who asked him whether he could restart the train and move it into the Crystal City station, Goodine said. Metro rules specifically prohibit a train from being moved after a derailment.
"This concerns me very deeply, and we're going to have to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible," Metro board Chairman Jim Graham said yesterday after a reporter told him about the findings. "We all feel that safety is the number one objective of this system."
Since the derailment, Metro put the construction project on hold and returned daily service on Track 1, avoiding use of the storage track while the investigation was underway.
Goodine said his investigation identified at least 10 other stretches of track in Metro's 103-mile system, including a center track at the West Falls Church station, that are sometimes used for daily service but were designed to a lesser standard as pocket, or storage, tracks. He said none of them pose the sort of safety risks that his investigation found at the National Airport station.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
END OF ARTICLE
A point to make note of: The center track at National Airport was used daily from 1977 until 1991. The West Falls Church middle track, the only other one on the MetroRail system, is only used for occasional short turns and trippers.
Am I to understand that a "train controller" instructed the operator of a derailed train to try to move it to the next station? That person is a menace to WMATA riders and should be fired immediately.
Agreed, if the facts have been accurately reported.
If they're going to use layup tracks for service anyway, why not just upgrade them?
Are NYC subway layup tracks any different than revenue tracks?
The track involved is the one shown in the picture below. National Airport is a three track station with two island platforms and three tracks, looking something like a Flushing Line express station. The only difference is the center track ends at the end of the station, where it merges back into the two mainline tracks.
Seen below are trains on the National Airport center track or just switching off of it. Photos all taken November 27, 2002. The train in the third picture is in roughly the same spot the derailment occurred.
The conclusion that I reach is that this track should be equipped as a revenue track. In the long run, it's cheaper than inviting derailments and injuries (and lawsuits).
My question is considering this was revenue until 1991, what did they do to it since then so that it didn't meet safety standards?
Good question. I don't think WMATA has a good answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wasn't there a derailment there several years ago on the same track, just north of the Airport station. If memory serves me, it was where the center tracks splits to join the main tracks.
I remember reading in the articles after the derailment mentions of a derailment in the same place. I do not have a definate answer for you.
If we really wanted to in April and the blossoms weren't out, we could go to the airport and study the center track switches.
I like the idea, although I don't know how close they'll let us get to the scene, a quick thought though, I wonder if we could get a WMATA manager to let us have clearance/access to places normally not accessible to the open public, perhaps areas in the tunnels or the WMATA HQ to see how they track the trains and such.---Somewhere at home, I have a picture, out of "the Post' of them pulling the front of train back onto the track, I'll try to locate it.
Mark
The Control Center at WMATA is cool. I've seen it before as well as the one for the MBTA when I took a transportation class at MIT. I took a tour of WMATA HQ once as I know someone due to my job, but I dont' know if I could pull it off for such a large group. He even let me walk on the catwalk of the tunnel by Judiciary Square which was cool when a train was coming through and we took a brief tour of the Brentwood shops. It was neat because I had always been an passenger sitting through letting people on and off there, but I then became the reason for the train stopping.
I've maintained my low profile because I've been fortunate enough to have a great working relationship with a lot of transit agencies and they are always more than happy to take me on tours, but I don't want to take advantage of that since its not really job related.
I think we will stick to the rails this time around. Of course, if one could arrange a DC area tour like the ones you described above, it could be a future trip.
Actually, when I jokingly said go look at the center track, the accident scene is visible from the platform, but there really isn't much to see. There would be no need to get any special permission to stand at the extereme north end of the National Airport platform. We might just turn a few heads but nothing else.
I will be scheduling our contingency plan for if the Tidal Basin blossoms aren't as good as my alternate site this weekend. Hopefully, we won't have to use it.
I'm looking forward to the subtalk trip. I agree that there wont be problems being at the end of the platform. I'm sure enough curious people have already done that.
A whole transit agency tour would be fun. They are always looking for ways to show off their system.
It wasn't on the original plan. Cherry Blossom forecast is due this week so we will see how that turns out. If we have time, we could hop on the Blue Line to the airport, and then go back towards Addison.
Not much different. In fact, the layup tracks are usually revenue express tracks (such as the Queens Line E/B track between 75 Avenue and Parsons Blvd., the 8th Avenue Line between Lafayette Avenue and Euclid Avennue, and the 4th Avenue Line between 36th and 59th Streets) not used at late nights or on weekends. However, most layup tracks are different in that they have dwarf signals for slow speed moves.
Try to pull a train from National Airport to Crystal City with a derailed car? How DUMB can you get? Was the controller high or drunk or something? Seriously, tat makes you just want to find the guy, slap him, and yell "Stimpy, you EEEDIOT!"
I take it Metro will do some inspections on the third track at West Falls Church now, especially since that's supposed to be used frequently when and if they start running trains to Dulles Int'l Airport. That also means to check the center tracks between Dupont Circle and Farragut North, west of Grosvenor and east of Silver Spring on the Red Line, and the third track between Mt Vernon Sq and Shaw-Howard Univ. on the Yellow/Green lines.
Pocket track and layup track... is there a difference? I know the terminology refers to a third track between two "regular" tracks, often used to lay over or store trains... but sometimes, the third track stub ends (What the track west of Franconia-Springfield would be should an exstension south ever be opened), and other times, it merges back with the two tracks (Stadium-Armory, Grosvenor, Silver Spring, the spot between Haddonfield and Woodcrest on PATCO, and just west of Spring Garden on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line). While I'm on that, I also don't know any official terminology for three-track island platform stations like PATCO's Woodcrest or WMATA's West Falls Church and National Airport stations. And it seems the designs for Rosslyn, Pentagon, Wheaton, and Forest Glen stations utterly defy definition.
A pocket track is a layup track.
The only center tracks used to carry revenue passengers on a REGULAR basis are the tracks at West Falls Church and National Airport. Avoiding use of the West Falls Church track is possible but could possibly cause delays. The National Airport situation is not avoidable if they are working on the canopy. That work has been suspended. Passengers do not ride the pockets at Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mount Vernon Square on a regular basis. The track at Farragut North was used when the Red Line terminated there and again when the Green Line Commuter Shortcut ran, but never carried revenue passengers on a regular basis. Even if trains had to use those tracks during trackwork for a weekend, it would be OK. The issue at the airport was that the tracks were susposed to be in use EVERY DAY for several MONTHS on a regular basis. Even if multiple weekends of work required use of the center track, weekend services are not that frequent.
I do not know the purpose of the Franconia third track. It is currently used for storage but could be a provision for if the Blue Line were further extended. That way, trains could easily be turned there.
Rosslyn and Pentagon are built the way they are so trains don't cross at grade when the lines split. Make those stations single level and you would have a standard island platform. Forest Glen and Wheaton were done that way to save money I believe.
You coming on the field trip in April?
I wish... I'm supposed to be moving sometime this spring, albeit NOT out of Philly. If I can scrounge up the cash to go, I'll go. I haven't been to my favorite getaway city in almost a year.
I know of why Rosslyn and Pentagon were done that way (Wheaton and Forest Glen... your guess is as good as mine). I'm just unsure as to what name you'd give to such a platform design. "Split-Level Island" sounds good for Rosslyn and Pentagon. Wheaton and Forest Glen... "Excessively Large Island". Forest Glen also may have been done that way because of the elevator-only exit. You need plenty of room when dealing with that many elevators.
Hey, here's a question. If Metro knew they'd only turn trains back from one direction at Grosvenor and Silver Spring, then why did they make the pocket tracks accessible from both directions? Especially Silver Spring, which has double crossovers west (actually south by geographical direction) of the station. Moreover, why did they put Stadium-Armory's pocket track so far east of the station itself?
The pockets at Silver Spring and Grosvenor enable trains to use them almost as diamond crossovers. A train can use the pocket to switch from track 1 to track 2 in both of those locations. A stub track would not be able to do that.
Not sure why the Stadium-Armory is where it is. Might be to reverse trains coming from the New Carrollton to go to Addison and vice-versa so that they don't block other train traffic.
It is probably from when Stadium-Armory was the terminal for the Blue Line when it first opened, as when Farragut North (and later Dupont Circle) was the terminal for the Red Line. Another use is laying up special put-ins for major events at RFK (they have done it on occasion for soccer games and that car race last year).
Or kind of like the Yellow Line above Mt. Vernon Square
I was referring to its location, at the D&G Junction itself instead of closer to the Stadium-Armory Station. The similar pockets, at Silver Spring, Grosvenor, and Mount Vernon Square, are right next to the station. Stadium-Armory is not. R6 asked why, I was offering my hypothesis.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory was not in service when phase II opened back in 07 1977 trains were crossed over at the interlocking at Eastern Market The same situation existed when the Yellow Line service started between the lower level of Gallery Place and National Airport back in 04 1983 the crossover at the north end of L’Enfant Plaza was used to crossover trains.
You are absolutely right in regards to the Yellow Line, but in the case of Stadium-Armory and 1977, this was only done as a temporary measure---some time in early 1978, before the New Carrollton branch opened, they did use the pocket track on the bridge beyond Stadium-Armory. If memory serves me, they started using it at the same time they were testing trains for the New Carrollton Branch, which opened in November of the same year.
I know for a fact that the two week period prior to 11 20 1998 opening of the New Carrollton extension trains were run beyond Stadium-Armory during the normal two week preopening shakedown. As for using the pocket track during testing, I don’t think so. After completing exceptence testing and WMATA taking over the operations from the contractor but prior to two week preopening shakedown I don’t recall that happening. I could be wrong.
A number of the segment I got sneak looks at by riding trains during two week preopening shakedown. This was back when I lived in DC and I new most of the train operators by name.
Ah yes, those were the good 'ol days----when you could watch it all as you went up & down Kenilworth Ave.----the good 'ol days.....
Wheaton and Forest Glen were built the way they were built because of the geology of the bedrock and to lower costs. The bedrock in this part of Montgomery County Maryland is very different the bedrock west of Rock Creek Park.
The pocket track are not just for making short turns. They are also used to stage what WMATA calls gap trains. Gap trains are put in service to replace trains that encounter in service failures that require them to be taken out of service. They are also used to store bad order trains that are limping back to yards. This is why pocket track are accessible from both ends on both mainline tracks. As was said by WMATAGMOAGH it can also be used as a crossover.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory at D and G junction internally known as D98 is there because this is a single interlocking plant and was the most convenient place to put it that was on a tangent with a 0.35% grade. All pocket tracks are on a 0.35% grade.
The third track at Springfield-Franconia is just that a third tail track for storage of trains. The now under construction Largo Town Center station will be configured the same way as the Springfield-Franconia tail tracks along with a small maintenance building.
I'm updating my trains for BVE and went through the archives of the Jeff H. and Brake posts. But, I was just curious, on the standard pressure gauge, what two needles are displayed? The Straight Air and Brake Pipe or Cylinder? Also, if possible, what pressures of the main reservoir does the compressor turn on and off?
I don't have the answers for current equipment, but I *do* have a question since you're into the TRAIN.DAT files for your WONDERFUL panels (my favorite - I often sub the 68A, 142 and 143 for many OTHER routes) ... is there a line I can diddle to eliminate the multiple minute recharge time on a penalty dump?
I looked at the TRAIN.DAT editor and got lost immediately and can't figure out how to recharge faster ... seems like almost ten minutes or so before I can release and go again.
I went through the old posts and found 135 and 150 PSI as the pressure of the main reservior. So they're a little lower than the numbers I just plugged in for my trains last time. It does seem to charge faster now in addition to that, through the panel.cfg, I changed the way the gauge acts completely. As far as I can tell, when you dump, the needles are spot on accurate.
I'm sure they are, as I said I'm *MOST* impressed by the fine work you did, ESPECIALLY on the movable controls for your namesake 68A. Absolutely WONDERFUL! But you should be able to get a chargeup back on after about 30 seconds or so and for some reason, it takes a LONG time for the compressors to bring the needles back up. And I just don't have the cluefulness to figure out how to tweak that.
Other than that though, your trainsets are absolutely the teats! :)
On anything other than "new tech" equipment (or "really old tech
equipment" such as R9s) the black hand is Brake Pipe and the
red hand is Straight Air Pipe. Unless the train is in emergency,
the Brake Pipe pressure will be 110 psi (except on the R44
where it will be higher). You'll never see main reservoir pressure
on any gauge, except on the R44 where the Brake Pipe will charge
up to main reservoir level.
i was waiting for a manhattan bound J train and as i saw a queens
bound J train leaving b,way Junction saw R42#4727&4684,they were the
last cars on that train.first time i see those cars.
til next time
4684/4727 have been together since they came back from M/K in 1989. Both original mates were destroyed in derailments during the '80's: one at 145 St. (D line) and the other at 168 St. (current C line).
The other mismatched R42 pair is 4665 + 4460. 4461 & 4664 were wrecked Williamsburg Bridge 6/5/95.
4461 wasnt wrecked... I heard it was back in service... (as 4260) They unmodified it!!!!!!!
4260 is not back in service yet. I saw it outside CI main shop on 2/24/03 with shop trucks on it. The slant front is that of 4260 and the rest of the car is 4461, converted from a compressor (odd) car to a convertor (even) car. It's mate (4259) is now in the main shop getting worked on. Thes would not be the usual even/odd mates. 4258/4261 have been running together for quite some time.
It was subtitled:
Safety Device Prevents Subway Runaway When Dead Man Falls from the Cab.
HIS HEAD HIT SIGNAL POST
Had Left Open Side Door of Compartment When Train Started Downtown, and Was Leaning Out.
Here's the first sentence:
"The death, in the rush hour yesterday morning of William A. Stone, a Subway motorman, proved the splendid efficiency of the automatic mechanism used in the Subway for the stopping of trains within less than their own length in a moment of emergency"
This happened south of Dyckman Street, which was then the starting station on the line. Apparently the motorman stuck his head out the door and hit a signal head. The impact pulled him out of the train and onto the roadbed. The conductor and the guards went up front, found the cab empty and went looking for the motorman on the tracks. They found him about 3 cars back. They brought his body up to the front car delaying the train about 12 minutes. Inspector Henry arriving from 137th Street then took the train to 145th Street. A fresh motorman was brought aboard and no further details of the trip were reported.
General Manager Hedley used the opportunity to reassure the public that the Interborough had provided fool proof safety features that would stop a train should a motorman faint, have a weak spell or experience sudden death.
This was really a gruesome and sad story. No mention was made of whether motorman Stone left a family behind.
And here I thought we lived in coarse times. "Death" proves a "splendid efficiency". That sentence speaks for itself.
They found him about 3 cars back. They brought his body up to the front car delaying the train about 12 minutes. Inspector Henry arriving from 137th Street then took the train to 145th Street. A fresh motorman was brought aboard and no further details of the trip were reported.
A 12-minute delay??? Times certainly have changed.
Ouch- Definitely pre "PC".
Ok, so I've seen Best Railfan Window, Best rolling stock, best stations, but I came up with an odd idea today (when hearing a 46 release), how about best sounding rolling stock or station (how it sounds when a train runs through)? Or even just the best subway sounds.
I put in two votes: 1. When a r46 releases (a constant sound) and 2. when a 32 releases (that high pitched whoosh).
How about when the bells are going at New Hyde Park (two crossings) and a string of M1s trying to catch up to schedule rockets through at 90 blasting the horn all the way?
Best sounding station.....that has to be my favorite station in the system.....Union Square - Lexington Line. I love the screeching, the sound of the trains through there, the echoing sound of the announcement, "Stand clear of the moving platform...", just the whole sound and cavern like feel of the station.
#1 sound, hands down: the moaning and groaning of spur-cut bull and pinion gears on prewar equipment. Throw in the grunts, snarls, hisses, and throbbing compressors of the R-1/9s and you've got a subway symphony. Not to mention their door sounds.
Second place goes to the n/b platform at 81st St. as an A train of immortal R-10s just rips past in full flight with a deafening roar.
"#1 sound, hands down: the moaning and groaning of spur-cut bull and pinion gears on prewar equipment. Throw in the grunts, snarls, hisses, and throbbing compressors of the R-1/9s and you've got a subway symphony. Not to mention their door sounds."
If those were the cars that I rode in the late `50s and early `60s down to Rockaway Beach, oh yeah! When those babies settled down to their business it was most definitely a symphony. Play a recording of that at my funeral. Something nice to go out on....
If you rode on an HH, chances are you rode on the R-1/9s. I'm a musician as it is, and those old timers were music to my ears.
Heypaul has a tape recording of those cars which I highly recommend.
when an R44 releases(that whoosh)my fav.
til next time
I agree.
I also like the release and, "whooo-oooooooooo" sound of the R-46s.
My personal favorite: the air compressor sound from the pre-GOH R-29, R-32, R-33 and R-36.
I liked the R-10 compressor sounds. They were about twice as fast as the throbbing R-1/9 compressors.
WMATA Rohr AC Traction
I can tell you what's the WORST sound: the flat wheels on too many of the LIRR MU's.
Oh yeah I love slant 40's with flat on the Brighton line too... makes it sound like an old time railroad. Chuggachuggachuggachugga. Just need an air whistle :)
Best rolling stock sound: R-62A. Very satisfying, especially while braking.
Worst rolling stock sound: R-142A/143 braking. The R-160 had better not have that ear-splitting squeal. Runner-up is the R-68 signature grunt.
Best station sound: South Ferry.
Worst station sound: either 63/Lex or 110/Lenox.
My choice is the relase in the pre-GOH R-38s through R-42s.
I have two:
- the R-1/9 series.
- R-14x series acceleration. Like violins off key.
--Mark
I agree with the R-46, albeit not the sound it makes now, but the one when it was new. 2nd place for me would be the R40 and R40M before GOHs. They made kind of a Darth Vader exhale sound that was not too loud, but unmistakable(R-42s were similar but more quiet). 3rd place goes to pre-GOH R-44s. Man, when that puppy released, it sounded just like an M-1, and rightly so.
the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ........PE cars 418 & 314 .....
wait till you hear the compressor and grinding gear sounds on them !
nice museum rolling stock to see in person !
riding them is joy to do too !!
a must if you visit peris california go see em yourself !!
Am I to understand that a "train controller" instructed the operator of a derailed train to try to move it to the next station? That person is a menace to WMATA riders and should be fired immediately.
Agreed, if the facts have been accurately reported.
If they're going to use layup tracks for service anyway, why not just upgrade them?
Are NYC subway layup tracks any different than revenue tracks?
The track involved is the one shown in the picture below. National Airport is a three track station with two island platforms and three tracks, looking something like a Flushing Line express station. The only difference is the center track ends at the end of the station, where it merges back into the two mainline tracks.
Seen below are trains on the National Airport center track or just switching off of it. Photos all taken November 27, 2002. The train in the third picture is in roughly the same spot the derailment occurred.
The conclusion that I reach is that this track should be equipped as a revenue track. In the long run, it's cheaper than inviting derailments and injuries (and lawsuits).
My question is considering this was revenue until 1991, what did they do to it since then so that it didn't meet safety standards?
Good question. I don't think WMATA has a good answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wasn't there a derailment there several years ago on the same track, just north of the Airport station. If memory serves me, it was where the center tracks splits to join the main tracks.
I remember reading in the articles after the derailment mentions of a derailment in the same place. I do not have a definate answer for you.
If we really wanted to in April and the blossoms weren't out, we could go to the airport and study the center track switches.
I like the idea, although I don't know how close they'll let us get to the scene, a quick thought though, I wonder if we could get a WMATA manager to let us have clearance/access to places normally not accessible to the open public, perhaps areas in the tunnels or the WMATA HQ to see how they track the trains and such.---Somewhere at home, I have a picture, out of "the Post' of them pulling the front of train back onto the track, I'll try to locate it.
Mark
The Control Center at WMATA is cool. I've seen it before as well as the one for the MBTA when I took a transportation class at MIT. I took a tour of WMATA HQ once as I know someone due to my job, but I dont' know if I could pull it off for such a large group. He even let me walk on the catwalk of the tunnel by Judiciary Square which was cool when a train was coming through and we took a brief tour of the Brentwood shops. It was neat because I had always been an passenger sitting through letting people on and off there, but I then became the reason for the train stopping.
I've maintained my low profile because I've been fortunate enough to have a great working relationship with a lot of transit agencies and they are always more than happy to take me on tours, but I don't want to take advantage of that since its not really job related.
I think we will stick to the rails this time around. Of course, if one could arrange a DC area tour like the ones you described above, it could be a future trip.
Actually, when I jokingly said go look at the center track, the accident scene is visible from the platform, but there really isn't much to see. There would be no need to get any special permission to stand at the extereme north end of the National Airport platform. We might just turn a few heads but nothing else.
I will be scheduling our contingency plan for if the Tidal Basin blossoms aren't as good as my alternate site this weekend. Hopefully, we won't have to use it.
I'm looking forward to the subtalk trip. I agree that there wont be problems being at the end of the platform. I'm sure enough curious people have already done that.
A whole transit agency tour would be fun. They are always looking for ways to show off their system.
It wasn't on the original plan. Cherry Blossom forecast is due this week so we will see how that turns out. If we have time, we could hop on the Blue Line to the airport, and then go back towards Addison.
Not much different. In fact, the layup tracks are usually revenue express tracks (such as the Queens Line E/B track between 75 Avenue and Parsons Blvd., the 8th Avenue Line between Lafayette Avenue and Euclid Avennue, and the 4th Avenue Line between 36th and 59th Streets) not used at late nights or on weekends. However, most layup tracks are different in that they have dwarf signals for slow speed moves.
B-
Bedrord park blvd to Coney Island via CPW exp, 6th, Bridge, and West End
all times
D-
Norwood bronx to Coney Island via Concourse, CPW exp, 6th exp, Bridge, and Brighton local to Coney Island
all times
M-
Nassau street subway, tunnel, Brighton express to Brighton Beach
Current Q schedule
N-
Astoria, Broadway exp , Bridge, Sea Beach to Coney Island
all times
Q-
Jamaica center, QB exp, 63rd tunnel, Broadway exp, Bridge, Brighton < Q > express am rush only peak direction only all other times (Q) local to Brighton Beach
all times
R- no changes
V-
Continental-6th-Kings HWY local all the way
weekdays middays and rush
W-
Astoria- Bway local- tunnel- 4th av local
5:30am - 9:00pm
Like it, but is that the MTA's official posting??? And where does the E go, back to Hillside?
NOPE!
It is also unworkable...
1) it would have both the (B) and the (D) running full time, something that is NOT needed in the Bronx.
2) it has both local and express trains using the 60th Street Tunnel, whereas if the 63rd St. Tunnel is used to Broadway, it would save switching to keep the Locals via 60th Street and the Express via 63rd Street.
: ) Elias
The Bronx and Queens sections are still flexable
But the Brooklyn and Bridge config is pretty much set - as to 6th av or Bway too
Oh yea? What have you heard about it that the rest of us don't know? As far as I know it still hasn't been decided what trains are on the bridge and which ones will be confined to the Montague rat trap. Let us in on your knowledge or you get no more Long Island potatoes.
I like your ideas but have a criticism. Even though Brighton locals are being turned at Brighton Beach while Stillwell terminal is rebuilt, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Brighton Beach is a bad place to turn locals as it was not designed to do so. How about this wacked-out idea: Put in a double crossover switch North of Neptune Avenue (if the old el could take the stress). Then the F could terminate at Neptune during rush hours and mid-days. Then, reinstall the local tracks on the ramps from Ocean Parkway to the lower level of West 8th Street (sure, put in switches to allow Culver access to the yard via CI). Now run Brighton Locals and Expresses all the way to CI except for nights! I'm sure the thousands of people whom live in the apartment buildings around there wouldn't object to direct Express service. Now, forget the fact that the trains running from BB to CI would be mostly empty except for rush hour. I like the idea; so there. Oh yeah, and I purposely left express service in place for the weekends (at least some of the time). Why not? I'm a billionaire. I can fund it....
"V- Continental-6th-Kings HWY local all the way
weekdays middays and rush"
Which Kings Highway are we talking about? The Sea Beach? The Culver? Or the Brighton?
Probably the Culver.
I don't like the idae of AM rush hour-only Q express service along the Brighton, plus with four tracks available, why would you want peak direction-only service other times?
My Plan-
A- all times to far rockaway, otherwise no changes
B- west end -4th ave exp, 6th av exp, cpw lcl, comcourse local to 205th st all times(late nights local)
c- lefferts-168 local, all times but nights, nights, lefferts-euclid
d- 205-Brighton Beach EXP, same hrs as current B
e- No changes
f- same as current service, nights/weekends through 53rd tunnel and local in queens
g- church-court sq ALL TIMES
J/Z- extended to brighton as LCL when D runs otherwise, same
L-No changes
M- combined with R weekends
N- weekdays- astoria-Coney island via broadway/4thave exp, seabeach and bridge, nights/weekends, via tunnel
Q- weekdays, Brighton lcl, Broadway Exp, From CI to 57/7, nights/weekends, extended via 63rd st to 71/continental, Express in queens, local in manhattan
R- weekends combined with M, Late nights to Essex st.
V-same as current, to church ave
W astoria to whitehall, weekdays
Well it has some flaws----the N in the tunnel late at night? It might pass muster. In the rathole on weekends, never.
Interesting, combining the M and R on weekends. I guess the M would simply replace the R on weekends. But without the R, you have only the N and Q on Broadway on weekends. There should be more than two weekend Broadway services.
True... There should more service on Broadway BMT...
Maybe run some extra Qs as Expresses in Manhattan and brooklyn
I think that the weekend M/R would be signed as a Brown R, to distinguish it from other lines
IMO, during the current bridge phase, the weekend M should have been extended via the Sea Beach (or, earlier, the West End), doing away with the N (or W) shuttle and providing a bit of additional connectivity at little cost.
57/6 is left unserved in your plan.
ok...
J- Weekend Jamaica center-57/6 Local
Once 21st St. Queenbridge opened and ultimately the extension to the Queens Blvd. IND, 57/6 can no longer be used as a terminal station.
If all of the 63rd st service is routed via broadway it can
If the B & D are both CPW express what about the A train? With the A going to 3 Queens terminals plus the B and the D it would cause major congestion at Columbus Circle...unless the A is local!? That's insane. However, I like the idea of the Q at Jamaica Center. This could mean express service on Hillside Av on either the E or the F.
As for the V, unless the F is gonna run express in brooklyn there's no point in extending it to Kings Highway...in fact I think they should scrap the V train altogether. I have seen it virtually empty during rush hour.
"I have seen it virtually empty during rush hour."
Yet that is enough people to relieve the over crowding on the (E) and (F).
If you kill the (V) there will be no 6th Avenue service via 53rd Street (and at Queens Plaza)... unless you returned the (F) to 53rd Strret, in which case there would be no service to the 57th Street Station on 6th Avenue.
Personally, I'd send the (V) to WTC (via 6th Ave with flying crossover south of W4th St.), and then I'd send the (C) to Kings Highway on the Culver (via Rutgers), that would send the (A) and the (E) out Fulton Street.
The (C) would be express on the Culver and on the lower level on the Bergen Smith section.
So for the Culver:
(GG) Crosstown to Church Avenue (all times)
(F) Culver Local to Coney Island (all times)
(C) Culver Express to Kings Highway (Rush, Day, and Eves.)
Elias
Okay, fine. But why the (C) express and the (F) local? Isn't that kind of wierd, having the (C) local in Manhattan and express in Brooklyn, and the (F) express in Queens and local in Brooklyn? Shouldn't it be the other way around, with the (F) express and the (C)/(G) local?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, with the (F) express and the (C)/(G) local?
Ever hear of NIMBYs?
The NIMBYS especially along Smith Street would have kittens (well they would have a cow, but the city doesn't allow cows!) if their service was cut back by so much as one train per hour!
So Existing service remains exactly the same, and the additonal service provides the Express. Additionally, Local trains cannot be turned at Kings Highway, only the Express (without the panic and confusion of having trains cross over in front of each other (read delays.))
Also the (C) is a Part-time service and Express service is also a part-time service, while the (F) and local service, is 24/7. So less confusion out in the hinterlands.
Those who as MUST RIDE the Express "'cause it is faster" will switch to and from the Express regardless of what track it is on.
Finally, the (F) is LOCAL both in Brooklyn and in Manhattan and is only Express in Queens. It will not upset or confuse Brooklyn Riders that the (F) is express somewhere else, nor will Queens riders ever notice that their train is Local in Brooklyn.
The issues are track capacities, and speed of service is optained not only by using the express track, but by making the most efficient use of the physical plant.
Elias
B-
Bedrord park blvd to Coney Island via CPW exp, 6th, Bridge, and West End
all times
D-
Norwood bronx to 95th street via Concourse, CPW exp, 6th exp, Bridge, and 4th av exp to Bay Ridge brooklyn
all times
M-
Brighton express to Brighton Beach VIA Lower Manhattan
Current Q schedule
N-
Astoria, Broadway exp , Bridge, Sea Beach to Coney Island
all times
Q-
Jamaica center, QB exp, 63rd tunnel, Broadway exp, bridge, Brighton < Q > express am rush only peak direction only all other times (Q) local to Brighton Beach
all times
R- no changes
And for some radical changes, why not put the V to WTC, and the E AS brighton Express, being the first direct 8th av train in south brooklyn
Ok I see one major problem... your suggestion makes almost everything express there. With this, the C would be the only local CPW, and the R being the only 4th Ave express all times.
Cut CPW express... It hurts more people than it helps.
Coming home today, I personally observed 3674-5, 3680-1, 3700-1, 3712-3, and 3842-3 on the R. Also, i saw various cars in the 452xs on the N (I was in 4523). What R32 phase I's went to Pitkin?
Maybe none...yet.
Apparently that leaves TWO trains of R-32s at CIY. Anyone see them on the N lately?
Thanks for the tip!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I worked ont Wednesday. Didn't see any yesterday.
Last Night the four test M-7's without interiors were brought over hellgate to New Rochelle and then on to Harmon (yes behind diesel) the cars are being brought to Harmon and GCT for testing of clearances.
its believed the cars will be send to Plattsburgh after MNCR has done their testing. no they won't run on mainlines unless they are towed.
And they get their interiors...
I was thinking, is it practical to run the C train from Manhattan to say Kings Hwy as a local complementing the F Express in Brooklyn?
And how about extending the V to Euclid as a local to the A giving Eastern Brooklyn a one seat 6th Ave service?
Just a thought as I was looking over my map.....
Any thoughts?
No, because that would clog up the switching at Jay Street/Borough Hall.
No, because that would clog up the switching at Jay Street/Borough Hall.
No, it would NOT...
Because the switching WOULD NOT be made there, but rather just south of West 4th Street....
There are FLYING CROSSOVERS there so that LOCAL trains *could* switch routes without getting in anybody's way.
The (V) would be via Cranberry and the (C) would be via Rutgers.
Elias
No, it wouldn't clog up the switches at Jay Street. It would clog up the switches at West 4th Street messing up four different lines. If the C and the V switched at that point, service would be affected on the E and the F lines as well going both north and southbound.
F trains would be delayed by C trains crossing over and vice versa.
E trains would be delayed by V trains crossing over and vice versa.
F trains would be delayed by V trains crossing over and vice versa.
E trains would be delayed by C trains crossing over and vise versa.
Add the fact that the E and the F run on shorter headways and have more trains running and you have supreme gridlock tying up 6th and 8th Avenue services.
In short, the C and the V should stay the way they are.
There's another form of that argument, which goes...
It would clog up the switches at Gold Street Interlocking (in 2004) messing up four different lines. If the B and the Q switched at that point, service would be affected on the D and the N lines as well going both north and southbound.
N trains would be delayed by B trains crossing over and vice versa.
D trains would be delayed by Q trains crossing over and vice versa.
N trains would be delayed by Q trains crossing over and vice versa.
D trains would be delayed by B trains crossing over and vise versa.
Add the fact that the D and the N run on shorter headways and have more trains running and you have supreme gridlock tying up Brighton and 4th Avenue services.
In short, the B and D should run on the Brighton and the N and Q on 4th Avenue, so NYCT never has to move a switch again.
See why that's all bullshit?
Thats not a good option either! Its better to keep the C Train going to Euclid.
Only if you switch the E and F south of West 4th as well.
You're not the first to make such a suggestion.
Of those who propose switching some locals at W4, there seem to be two schools of thought: switch some but not all (to maximize flexibility), or switch all (to minimize the potential for merging delays).
One negative side effect is that many SB passengers waiting at W4 will have to choose between a local on one level and an express two flights away. Annunciators in the mezzanine could help.
[Of those who propose switching some locals at W4, there seem to be two schools of thought: switch some but not all (to maximize flexibility), or switch all (to minimize the potential for merging delays).]
Some of the some-but-not-all group go one step further, asserting that the mere existence of an interlocking (such as West 4th) mandates its usage, regardless of actual passenger demand for the mixed/matched services.
True. Express tracks, too.
Any suggestion to improve transfers are always welcome. But with a
management that switched the Northern Terminals of the (B) & (C),
so that all 6th Avenue service goes to the Concourse & 8th Avenue
goes to Washington Heights vs the flexibility during peak of either
6th\8th Avenue service from either branch. I don't think so. >GG< IMO.
;-) Sparky
For 14 reasons why this is a good idea, see:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=412975