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I just witnessed a heavy-wind blown snow storm pass by as I was visiting SubTalk at this ungodly hour....it lasted a total of 15 mintues, but left a dusting and brought visibility to hazardous conditions. Anyone else awake to have seen this storm in action?
I passed through a snow storm driving to Ithaca, NY just now. I passed out more than ten 4x4 and AWD vehicles. PATHETIC! These people buy SUV's and then go 10mph when it snows. What a friggen waste. I could do so much more with an SUV. (I have a FWD car.)
--Brian
Umm - you may be able to get up over 10 mph in the snow with a 4x4, but can you _stop_ from that higher speed? 4WD does not have any effect braking performance in slippery conditions.
subfan
"4WD does not have any effect braking performance in slippery conditions."
Many 4WD owners only learn that little fact from personal experience.
Yes. But the two accidents I passed consisted of cars, not SUV's, that had ended up in the ditch. So I guess the SUV drivers up here go too slow instead of too fast.
--Brian
Yeah, my brakes were worthless. So I just used engine braking. I would shift down to 3 or 2 instead of using the brakes. Worked great!
--Brian
SUV's help you get THOUGH the snow, not speed throught the snow. On ice an SUV will have almost as much trouble stopping than any other car. In fact they can flip over easier. So yes, SUV's are great in the snow, but you still can't stop if you drive too fast.
True. That's why you must resort to other tricks to slow down in snow. Such as throwing an anchor out the window or just downshifting.
--Brian
Hey, you should have been in "sunny?" Southern California yesterday afternoon. A rain shower turned into a mini blizzard and the hail came down fast and furious. Within three or four minutes our green lawn was all white. You could have sworn it had snowed. The last time it snowed in the valley's of Southern California was early in 1949, five years before we moved here. But this was awfully close to the real thing. Amazingly within half an hour all was melted and the grass turned into a flooded green. Not my type of weather, I can assure you of that.
>>> The last time it snowed in the valley's of Southern California was early in 1949, five years before we moved here. <<<
I have seen a dusting of snow (not hail) in Los Angeles after 1970. It was gone by noon.
Tom
If it was the same storm that hit Schenectady on Wednesday, I guarantee you that I wouldn't be driving too fast either. Visibility was 35-50 FEET.
I just got home to Howell, NJ and the sky is clear. All i see are the stars espectly Orion's Belt.
Robert
no snow here in nassau now 3:45 am
no snow here in nassau now 3:45 am
Dougie,
The proper term for that phenomenon is a "snow sqall." It is defined as a sudden burst of snow, accompanied by a gusty wind that lasts for minutes (vs. hours). It usually marks the leading edge of an arctic cold front. Which this one did.
Glossary of Meteorology for those who might be interested.
I've already returned to Boston from NYC (via a jam-packed AE), and we had it here too.
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Thanks Todd. That's why my handle is BMTman and not Cumulusman. LOL!
Another poster remarked that nothing happenned in Nassau County....I wouldn't have expected it there: I visually followed the particular cloud -- it went out to sea after passing over the Rockaways...never got past Queens.
Good observation, Dougie. Snow squalls are usually from small cumulus clouds (mini-versions of thunderstorm clouds) and can often cover just a small area. When these clouds are lined up, they're called a "squall line," and (in the summer) can produce intense thunderstorms and associated wind.
ON TOPIC: Last summer we had a particularly nasty squall line over Rockville Center. It was moving due east. The anchor asked me where it was headed. Without hesitation, I replied, "Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantaugh, Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst, and Babylon." The anchor, Wayne Cabot (a rail fan too) almost cracked up on the air :-)
The anchor, Wayne Cabot (a rail fan too) almost cracked up on the air :-)
I recall when I worked in the newsroom at WNEW 1130 as a copy boy back in the days when Julie LaRoasa was on the air....
Anyway... I brought in the race results, a horse named "Cunning Stunt" had won the race....
Oh Oh!...... From this time onward listeners would call in saying "Julie.... your horse is running!)
Elias
>>> When these clouds are lined up, they're called a "squall line," and (in the summer) can produce intense thunderstorms and associated wind. <<<
Todd;
Why is thunder and lightening only a summer phenomenon? There is no thunder and lightening with snow squalls.
Tom
There is no thunder and lightening with snow squalls.
Never been to North Dakota, eh?
Rare... but we have seen them.
Very Weird!
More common of course is a BigSummerTunderStorm
with hail accumulations measured in inches.
Elias
Not true! Lightning and its resultant thunder occur in winter too. "Thundersnows" happen about three or four times a year in the NYC area. It's more rare because in colder air, the air is generally more stable and thus tall cumulonimus clouds are more difficult to form. It's the difference in electrical charge within these clouds (and also from cloud-to-ground) which causes lightning.
In fact, there was lightning/thunder reported last evening (Saturday) just southeast of Nantucket. In the winter, you'll find electrical storms most likely to occur when low pressure systems are deepening (strengthening) rapidly.
Todd, I was once told that lightening actually comes from the ground but only looks as though it's coming from the clouds? (or are there different types of lightening strikes?) Also, is it true that in every lightening flash there may be four or five separate 'bursts' but the human eye can't register the speed at which these bolts travel? (Gee, I think it's time to create "WeatherTalk").
Dougie,
First of all, it's "lightning" (no "e" :-)
True, the stroke begins at the ground with a "leader" and then the big discharge comes from the cloud and joins the leader. There can be dozens or hundreds of separate strokes that the human eye sees as one.
As it turns out, there has been a "WeatherTalk" (abbreviated WxTalk) and it's a listserve that's been around longer than SubTalk!
Now, back to our trains....
Thankx (with an 'x') :)
dso you have the URL to Wx Talk? is it open for the general public?
It's a listserve. In otherwords, compilation of emails. Information is available here.
It's a listserve. In otherwords, compilation of emails. Information is available here.
I saw some snow on the cars Sunday morning. Jeez, I missed a snowstorm, we never get 'em any more...
There's some talk abt Monday afternoon and Thursday. But we'll get NOTHIN'...
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, it didn't come our way, but I heard it made for hazardous traffic conditions in Elizabeth NJ, another area where it might have passed over.
wayne
Are you sure it was snow? We are talking Brooklyn, here!!!
Either that or some really big dude with a SERIOUS dandruff problem was combing his hair....
Maybe that was the reason that some of the roads in the area iced up this morning.
#3 West End Jeff
I was briefly out at that insane hour around prospect heights, and that weird ass snow storm came out of nowhere. I got in a cab as it started, and by the time we got where we were going, it was done, just little snow sliding around the ground with the wind.
Ya, that's the one...
Photos from 11/27/2002 of the Canal St (J/M/Z) Station are available here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/CanalJMZ
--Brian
Brian, thanks for posting those. I was there a few weeks ago, but it has prgressed quite a but since I was there. (I haven'
t had the chance to get there recently). When I was there, the construction wall was around the Queens-bound "express" track already, and those little cement block walls were already covering the "holes" in the curtain wall, but they haden't "broke through" yet.
Why in the world would they be cementing over the former track there, even with the platform, if they will be abandoning it anyway?
but they haden't "broke through" yet.
"Haden't?", obviously "hadn't" had my coffee yet.
I usually visit there often, but I havent been there for a month, thanks for posting.
What happens if and when the second ave line gets built?
I thought it was to hook up with the Nassau Line? If that was the case, wouldn't the additional ROW be of use?
avid
>>What happens if and when the second ave line gets built?
I thought it was to hook up with the Nassau Line? If that was the case, wouldn't the additional ROW be of use?<<
The southern part of the Second Ave subway route has not been finalized. One route would take it down to Water St. That's right on the edge of the Financial District. That way all those living on the upper east side would have a one seat ride if they worked in the Financial District.
Anoter route would tie into Centre St. Subway and terminate at Chambers St. That's probably why the Chambers St.was neglected all these years. Just waiting, waiting and waiting for the City to build the Second Ave. subway.
You know, that's also why they are reconfiguring the Centre St. subway. If they choose the Centre St. route, the (J)(M)&(Z) would already have been shifted over and they could tie in 2nd Ave. If they choose Water St, then Centre st. would stay shifted over.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Either way, whatever route the 2nd AVe subway takes (if and when of course), what they are doing now with cutting through at Canal is necessary. If the SAS takes the Water Street route, the abandonment will remain, and there is no need for the extra platforms anyway. If the SAS takes the Nassau Line route, the break through at Canal would also be necessary because all four traks will be needed. so either way, it's a good idea to continue the work being done there.
This IS an issue. I spoke with some transportation engineering people in the know on the 2nd Av project (outside of the MTA) and they were surprised when I told them that Canal St J/M/Z was losing two tracks...
Not that unusual, if the plan is for the 2nd ave. subway is supposed to merge at Chambers St. That means the extra tracks at Bowery and Canal Street would still be unnecessary.
The 2nd Ave Subway would probably merge with the Nassau line between Canal and Bowery. Either way the issue is a non-issue at Bowery; the 2nd Avenue line will never run through there, even if the Nassau Line alignment is used, that platform's days are numbered, and will probably never see life again once closed. As for Canal - hey you never know. It may reopen again many years from now, when and if the 2nd Ave ever gets built.
I wonder if there are any of the original Canal St. signs still hiding
there? I had to create one for my Canal St. shirts, but still pine for the real thing.
Er? The original mosaics are still visible on the uptown side, though the uptown platform is something of a tight squeeze.
The original porcelain White with Black letters signs were still at Canal until fairly recently - they were all only removed about 10 years ago or so.
I know! : (
I would love to find one!
Yeah, if they lasted as long as they did, they should have left them.
OthersPorcelain White with Black letters signs lost within the last 10 years or so were (I'm sure there were more, but I remeber these personally that lasted to the early 90's) :
Grand Central (4/5/6)
Roosevelt-Jackson Heights - that was a nice one!
Times Square-Broadway (I think that's still there?) I forgot to notice the many times I've been through there.
Any others lasting until 10 years ago - or better yet - still there?
Atlantic (Brighton) still has them.
There was one at Myrtle Ave on the "L" that was within a newsstand, built around a column. When the newsstand was removed and replaced elsewhere, one white sign remained on the column for some time. I believe its gone now.
Conrad, I remember that one! ABout 10 years ago they removed the aformentioned newstand that was butt-up against the column. When they removed the newstand, there was the lone dirty porcelain sign, right in the middle of the station. Eventually it got cleaned, and it survived for quite a few years. Unfortunately, about 3 or so years ago, they changed all the Myrtle column signs, and that one also was removed at that time. I wonder what they do with all the signs like that, I guess throw them out. I would have loved the lone white one, but wouldn't have minded one of the black ones they removed either.
For a time, Myrtle had three types of pillar signs:
Myrtle Avenue (black)
Myrtle (black)
Myrtle (the lone white one)
Times Square still has the signs on the pillars (last I checked a month or so ago). I don't know about the hanging signs.
Yeah, I know they are still on the pillars at Times Square, I definitely noticed them fairly recently, but for the life of me, I can't remember if the hanging ones were still there. They were until a few years ago.
If both of the current northbound tracks are to be abandoned, what's the point in putting a concrete platform across the northbound "express" right of way? Will that new platform also be extended across the current northbound "local" right of way? Why?
If there's a possibility of using those easterly tracks for a Second Avenue routing, why cover them so thoroughly? Nice future contract for someone, one might think.
It's interesting that the TA eliminated the Houston-Second Avenue-Chrystie-Houston link from the City's Second Avenue plans that lasted into early TA days. It would have provided an alternate to some of the Manhattan Bridge reroutings BMT riders have suffered with for the last twenty something years. And there might have been a better terminal choice for the 'V'--Canal, Chambers, or Broad, giving Queens Boulevard people closer one-train financial district access than the 'E' at Chambers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
If both of the current northbound tracks are to be abandoned, what's the point in putting a concrete platform across the northbound "express" right of way?
The entire Queens-bound platform will be abandoned, no question there. As for why they are covering the "express" track there, I have no idea.
>Will that new platform also be extended across the current northbound "local" right of way?
No, that track will remain active, although not in revenue service. the track will be usable for reroutes, etc if need be.
I figure they're going to cover the "express" track to increase the storage capacity of the platform. That way, they can have work trains go into the local track, then pick up whatever they need there.
As an additional note, it looks like the street entrances to the uptown platform have been demolished. One possible spot on Walker St. looks like it has been cemented over, and another possible spot nearby has a metal plate over it. I saw this last Friday. As for Bowery, when I checked it last weekend nothing seemed to be happening.
It's interesting to see just how extensive Bowery station is. If I'm correct, it even used to have a building entrance. There's a blocked archway on the SW corner of Bowery that resembles the subway entrance at Canal and Centre. There's not much other evidence though; a store occupies the space behind the arch and there's extremely little to see aside from merchandise.
The direct street entrance to the NB platform at Canal has been closed for a long time. Anybody have an exact date? Where was it located on the street? Did the underpass connect to either of the other underpasses?
It had to be at Canal and Centre, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence other than what I pointed out. No evidence of any building entrances on the uptown side. For such a major station I would have expected more traces, but I guess there has been too much renovation.
It's been closed since 1998.
Correction: 1995. It was closed when the eastern half was renovated.
What's the latest info? It could happen (please, I hope not!) two weeks from today.
The latest news is... no news!! So what else is new?
Toussaint is still demanding the whole universe - presumably he has a plan to pay for all his demands without a fare increase, but he has yet to share that plan with the rest of humanity.
If Toussant's crew sees the expiration of a contract as a date to strike, then it's news. Most public employee contracts are finalized years after the prior contract expires, with the terms covering the period back from the present instead of the future.
The only way a deal gets done is if the potential bankruptcy of the health fund motivates the TWU, and the need for some kind of givebacks motivates the MTA. Otherwise, they can let it slide until the economy comes back, providing the funds needed for both sides to declare "victory."
Well Mayor Mike with his new no retroactive raise policy does not help the case for going with no contract if he can bring that over to the MTA. I can't see Pataki not liking it.
Most city employees contract expired June 30, 2002 and no one is even talking about talking. We are still waiting for the 1% raise from the last contract (not a raise, 1% was left to the unions to do with what they want. Some are putting it to Health & Welfare, some to raise the longivity pay).
as soon as ciywide contract is settled nyc will pay increase i.e. annuity etc.
I will likely make an appeal at either the Dec 7 or Dec 14 TWU meeting to not have any strike until AFTER the fare increase kicks in.
BTW, More Dept of Education employees got pink slips today. The seperate service on January 2nd.
Can anyone explain to me how to post photos on Subtalk??? Thanks.
Can anyone explain to me how to post photos on Subtalk??? Thanks.
You cannot post photos here.
You need to 'post' them on a website or such place that you own and or have access to, and then make a reference to them here in this forum.
I have some photos on my own personal computer, that just so happens to be setup as a webserver via a dsl line, so I can reference them here without having to post them on some other website.
The syntax that you need to reference a picture here is:
(img src="http://12.23.190.250/Photos/ETcR9D.jpg")
where the "(" and ")" are replaced with "<" and ">"
The important parts are:
1) the broken brackets (lesser and greater than signs) which tell a browser that this is HTML code.
2) the "img src" which tells the browser to go fetch a picture and to show it 'inline'.
and 3) the URL which tells the browser the absolute path to the image.
and 4) that the URL must be enclosed in quotes.
and 5) do not forget to close either the quotes or the HTML tag.
Use the "Preview" button, to be sure that it works before posting it to SubTalk.
which produces a photo like this:
if I did it correctly!
: ) Elias
However, you can also post photos here by submitting them to the webmaster for his consideration.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought of this, but that would make them part of the WebSite rather than part of the Forum....
But Good Idea... Good Photos ought to be submitted to Dave!
Elias
Like mine :)
Yeah, you could do that but if you want it to appear right away... you'll have to use your own web space. I have a huge backlog.
Yea, the last thing you want is HTML code gone sour, just because it was typed incorrectly...
Anyway, since we are on the topic of photos, here's one that I would like to share with you all...enjoy!
LIRR M-7 #7016, part of a consist of cars #7011-7016, at LIRR Jamaica Station, a few weeks ago...this is the 6:04PM Peak train from Flatbush Avenue (6:25PM from Jamaica) to Ronkonkoma...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
In addition to what the others said you can also upload them to a website somewhere and then use html codes to post them in a post here. Once you upload it to a photo site, it will have it's own address, for example, www.whatever-the-address-is.com. When you get that, you fit it into the code which exactly is [img src="www.whatever-the-address-is"], using the quotation marks, and replace[ ] with < >.
Just be aware that some photo sites do not allow for remote posting of photos, such as www.webshots.com. Imagestation allows it, and many others do also.
It's not as hard as it sounds.
On this date in...
1955...Commuting becomes a little easier for straphangers in Queens when a tunnel opens linking the IND and BMT lines just West of the Queens Plaza Station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can you clarify this ?
My Aug '47 subway map shows three lines under/over the East River: a BMT line to Queensboro Plaza, a IND line to Queens Plaza and the #7 line tunnel.
Yes, I had heard before that the 60th Street tunnel for the BMT opened in 1955, so when was the 53rd Street tunnel for the IND opened ? I also knew that they had joint service in Queens (BMT/IRT) & there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955 ?
Sorry Thurston I cannot clarify. I got the info from NY1. Maybe some others can elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
From subway maps available on this site, we can see:
- In 1951 the 53rd St and 60th St tunnels were there. Heavy BMT cars were already going to Astoria, though not connecting into the IND line.
- In 1948, both tunnels were there. The BMT service appears to have terminated at Queensboro Plaza, with IRT cars making the trip to Astoria and Flushing.
- In 1939, BMT cars traveled over the Queensboro Bridge to get to QP. The 53rd St tunnel was already there.
- In 1939, BMT cars traveled over the Queensboro Bridge to get to QP. The 53rd St tunnel was already there.
No BMT cars operated over th Queensboro Bridge in 1939, or in any other year.
My mistake. The 1939 map is very fuzzy and I misread it to indicate that the BMT trains were going over the bridge. In fact, even back on the 1924 BMT map the 60th St tunnel is there.
Oh yes, that is a fact. In fact the 4th Avenue Local, as we called it even in Queens, terminated at Queens Plaza, the only outdoor stop on that rancid line. The IRT then went to Astoria until 1949 when the #2BMT (FAL) was diverted there, giving that line about seven or eight outdoor stations.
This I know because we lived three blocks from Queens Plaza and if we wanted to go to Brooklyn or Manhattan we had to take the #2 to Times Square where we could get off and catch a breath of fresh Sea Beach air.
Of course, you'd get a whiff of fresh air while crossing the Manhattan Bridge.
Hey Fred, check out the upcoming issue of TV Guide. There's an article on Tom Brokaw's first trip to New York in 1957 that includes a photo of a Dodger game at Ebbets Field. Turns out Brokaw was a big Dodger fan. He took the subway from Times Square to Prospect Park - no doubt a Brighton express - to see the Dodgers. Don't know if he ran up the steps, though.:)
If Brokaw didn't run up the steps then he was less of a Brooklyn Dodger fan than he thought. Running up those steps quickened the blood and anticipation of a great afternoon at Ebbets Field. Good Lord, do I really miss those days. As for the TV Guide article, thanks, I will get it today after my nine holes of golf. Wish me a good round. Take care.
I had heard before that the 60th Street tunnel for the BMT opened in 1955, so when was the 53rd Street tunnel for the IND opened ?
1933.
The section of tunnel SUBWAYSURF refers to is a connection between the BMT's 60th Street tunnel and the IND's 53rd Street tunnel, also called the "11th Street cut".
I also knew that they had joint service in Queens (BMT/IRT) & there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955 ?
1949, I believe.
--Mark
>>> there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955? <<<
The 3rd Avenue El never went accross the Queensboro Bridge, it was the 2nd Avenue El, and that service ended in 1942. Big BMT cars went to Queensboro Plaza elevated station through the 60th Street tunnel from the time it was built in the ‘20s. The 1955 connection allowed big BMT cars from the 60th Street tunnel to go to the IND Queensborough Plaza subway station.
Tom
Thanks guys for all the input, now lets see if I have it streight:
1. 2nd Ave el cars came across the upper deck of the Queensboro Bridge until 1942.
2. Trolleys came across the outer ROW of the lower level until 1957.
3. 60th Street tunnel brought BMT cars there in 1920s
4. 11th Street cut connected BMT to Queens Blvd. line in 1955
5. 53rd Street tunnel gave IND access to Queens Blvd in 1933
6. Steinway tunnel, initially created for a trolley line, was completed in 1907.
7. 63rd Street tunnel has two levels (subway/LIRR), but is still not fully functional.
All correct. Here are some tidbits about the above.
(1) The upper level of the Queensboro Bridge was dedicated solely to the 2nd Avenue Line until the 1920's, when two lanes for automobiles were built. This required that the subway line be moved over to one side of the upper level (not sure which) until the line's closure in 1942.
(2) The trolley that came across the Queensboro Bridge until 1957 was operated by the Queens & Manhattan Transit Corp (Q&MT) and had just three stops: 2nd Avenue in Manhattan, Welfare (now Roosevelt) Island and Queens Plaza. The portals for the trolley can still be seen on the Manhattan side of the Bridge. Joe Brennan has some excellent information on the trolley on his Abandoned Stations site.
(5) The 53rd Street tunnel was built in the same project as the 8th Avenue IND line, the first IND line to begin operations in 1932-3.
(6) The Steinway tunnel was actually intended to be a freight line between LIC and Grand Central. The tunnel was started in the 1880's but was not completed until after 1900. August Belmont of IRT fame actually ran the trolley through the tunnel after 1907 but he intended to add the line to the IRT system as soon as he could and to extend it. The line original ran only from Grand Central to Vernon and Jackson Avenues. The rest was added later. It eventually became part of the Dual Contracts expansion in 1913.
(7) Track maps for the 63rd Street tunnel show tracks connecting the Lexington Avenue station to both the 6th Avenue and Broadway Lines. There is also a provision for the 2nd Avenue Line, should it ever be built. The station as it is currently used is only half of what is there. If the station wall would be torn down, you'd see the other half of the platforms and another trackway leading to bumper blocks.
(6) The Steinway tunnel was actually intended to be a freight line between LIC and Grand Central. The tunnel was started in the 1880's but was not completed until after 1900. August Belmont of IRT fame actually ran the trolley through the tunnel after 1907 but he intended to add the line to the IRT system as soon as he could and to extend it. The line original ran only from Grand Central to Vernon and Jackson Avenues. The rest was added later. It eventually became part of the Dual Contracts expansion in 1913.
Actually, the tunnel didn't have service for very long after Belmont opened it because of litigation with the City of New York. He was forced to board it up, and it was idle from 9/24/1907 until 4/21/1917!
Read more.
--Mark
Actually on the platform you can see a piece of the unused platform. Near the elevators there are 2 doorways (one on each level) where the door is locked by a metal chain. Look thru the hole in the door, you can see the edge of the platform and the bare wall. Sometimes you can also see a lay-up train sitting there. If the porter is working there, the door might be open and you can take a quick look at the platform. And if anyone is wondering, the platform is lit.
I think they mean the tunnel that connects the BMT 60th street to the IND 53rd Street lines that the old EE and the R used to use and now the N (?) uses.
I think they mean the tunnel that connects the BMT 60th street to the IND 53rd Street lines that the old EE and the R used to use and now the N (?) uses.
The "EE" and the (N) used to use it. The (R) uses it now.
:-) Andrew
Also on this date [12/1] back in 1972 a train of R-32s jumped the tracks at the very same spot as the infamous Malbone St. wreck.
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC that mishap took place on 12/1/74.
I looked up the date on the website and they must have it wrong. In Brian Cudahy's book "Under The Sidewalks Of New York" they list the date as December 1st 1974. Thank you for the information.
#3 West End Jeff
What has happened to John?
He has been missing for 3 weeks!
>>> What has happened to John?
He has been missing for 3 weeks! <<<
He has found Bus Talk to be much less critical of his personal lifestyle.
Tom
Nowadays, he's on Bustalk more often.
David,
It would truly be great if you would delete this thread. It is bad enough when people start insulting each other in the heat of argument. But this thread has degenerated into an opportunity by some to go out of their way to insult a SubTalk poster who hasn't even been involved in this thread.
Actually, it would be TRULY great if we had less immaturity here but you know that's never going to happen, right Train Dude? Right Clayton? etc.
I know its not a suprise to many, but it seems that most AMTRAK trains in and out of NY are sold out until 8pm or so. I arrived at Penn Station at 9a this morning, and things were already packed...but my train from philly was not too crowded.
Has anyone else ridden today....and how is NJT and septa holding up today (especially on the trenton connection)
Rode 2250 NYP to WAS, completely sold out. Large crowd took the 11:05 Holiday Extra to DC, they had people go down from both 15E and 15W. No open seats on my train until Baltimore.
Rode 2250 NYP to WAS, completely sold out.
Did you transpose the 5 and 0? I was on the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge photographing trains on Sunday and got train 2205 heading for Washington at 10:58 and train 2250 headed for New York at 11:00.
2251, my bad. Did you photograph that too? It was trainset #6 (2030-2031). 2250 was 15 minutes late getting into New York (arrived as we left) and I remember passing the 2032-2034 set but can't remember exactly where. Where exactly is this bridge? I saw another post you made earlier saying you would be out there but I didn't know where exactly the bridge was.
2251 was the next train after I left. There was a bunch of trains coming after an expected 15 to 20 minute hiatus, but I was too frozen to wait for them.
The Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge is just east of Frankford Junction. It's easily accessible from either side of the tracks (4 track NEC plus multi track yard) by automobile, or from the Frankford el (MFSE) with a 7 minute walk from the Erie-Torresdale station.
There was a bit of a lull in terms of passing NB trains between Metropark and Philly. At Metropark, the MARC consist that originated in Baltimore passed us, while at Philly, an Acela trainset went by. I don't remember the train numbers for either one. I have to say, it was quite cold out there, so I don't blame you for not waiting.
NJT ran 12 car trains and they were packed! i stood from MetroPark to NY Penn
NJT ran 12 car trains and they were packed! i stood from MetroPark to NY Penn
I tried to access it, and couldn't. Is the site down? Temporarily or permanently?
Right now. the name servers at Fatcow aren't giving a response for his domain.
Maybe he's having trouble with his service provider or is coanging providers.
(Picked up from the BMT Easterm vs. Southern thread.)
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
Given the caveats that LaGuardia and Moses wouldn't have been able to harass the hell out of the private companies. AND that the basic structures of the Dual Contracts and competition survived -- I can't speculate on the railroads, but minimally, based on history, I would expect the following:
The Brooklyn Loop System would have been completed (Brooklyn Bridge-Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street Tunnel). Ashland Place connection would be built. However, Brooklyn Bridge service would be perhaps half what it was in 1939.
The BMT would have gotten a west side subway up Central Park West and an east side subway to compete with the IRT, possibly also merging with the NYW&B.
The BMT would have gotten what is now the GG, partly elevated, and probably forming a loop in Manhattan with Broadway or the new east side line.
The only BMT els I see coming down (absent, of course a big City push agaisnt elevateds) is 5th/3rd south of 36th, probably the whole thing if the BMT got additional subway capacity in the area. And MAYBE the westernmost part of the Fulton L.
The BMT would have had a PCC fleet (Bluebirds or equivalent) as its elevated lines and compromise car. It would have incremnentally upgraded the elevated system as it went.
There would be trolley/light rail in Brooklyn, at least for the majot trunk lines.
But what would have happened to the Manhattan elevateds? I have to believe that at least the 6th Ave el would have been demolished because of real estate pressures, even without LaGuardia. If the 6th Ave. line was BMT, where would it branch from? The 60th St. tunnel? The west side lines? IMO, it would extend from the west side lines' turn onto 7th Ave., turn south onto 6th, then turn east on Canal, meeting with the tracks heading for the Manhattan Bridge. If the IRT had it's way, it would probably hang onto the 6th Ave el instead of investing in new infrastructure. If the BMT built an east side line, the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els would have been demolished.
I think the Manhattan Elevateds would have stayed IRT. The 6th Ave El would have been torn down the time it did. the other 3 would have stayed up longer. But by now MAYBE they would have been torn down. Then again maybe they would have been rebuilt.
The IND gave transit expansion in New York City one last push. Without it, nothing else would have been built in its place. The privates would have gone under in any event, though perhaps later. There wouldn't have been enough money to maintain all the Els.
My guess is the Second, Third and 6th Avenue Els would have come down anyway, along with 5th Avenue and Mytle Avenue. Fulton Street would have stayed, along with 9th Avenue. Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.
True, even with some of it's redundancy, the IND really did improve the system. Can you imagind Queens without the Queens Blvd line? Manhattan also greatly benefited from the IND. As much as I love els, and the railfan in me wishes they were still in Manhattan, Manhattan is much better off without them, with the exception of there really needing to be a second East Side line - but the 1st or 2nd Ave els were correctly removed, the line should be underground. They should have waited for it to be built though, before removing both of them. If one of those els were required to remain until a 2nd Ave subway was built, believe me, there would have been a second Ave subway long ago, just to get rid of the el. The push would have been much harder.
Anyway, back to the IND. Like I was saying, the IND did really improve the system, and we are better off for it. However, unfortunately, it could have been even better. The foolishness of the wasted money on the Fulton Subway and the Concourse line are the biggest mistakes. That's where our 2nd Ave subway, or better expansion in Brooklyn or Queens should have come from - that money. The Fulton El, and the Jerome El had no trouble serving the ares where the Fulton Subway and Concourse lines were built.
But let me throw this out, speaking of the Fulton Subway. What the hell would people have to talk about here at SubTalk if the Fulton Subway was never built - 76th Street wouldn't come up every other day.
but the 1st or 2nd Ave els were correctly removed
Sorry typo, 3rd or 2nd Ave els, not 1st Ave
>>> Sorry typo, 3rd or 2nd Ave els, not 1st Ave <<<
Was it the 1st Ave. El that had a station at 76th Street? :-)
Tom
Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.
Why do you assume the Queens Boulevard Line (or equivalent, or maybe more than one) wouldn't have been built without the IND.
My contention is that there would have been more and infrastructure built without the "go it alone" IND draining the City's Rapid Transit Debt allowance.
A problematic area is the fate of the IRT. There might have been some push at some time to have the BMT take over the IRT. This might have been a good thing, management-wise, not I don't believe in the diminution of comeptition.
************************
My server troubles yesterday cut off part of my original post. The additional post said:
The East River bridges would be in better shape than they are now, as the CIty would demand and get increased lease payments from the private companies, who for their part, would have made sure that they weren't allowed to deteriorate.
The BMT and IRT would both have vied for service to then-rural Queens. No prediction as to who would have gotten what where. Surely there would have been at least one additional East River tunnel.
The IRT's corporate culture would have exerted itself in attempting to thwart BMT plans somewhat to the detriment of their own growth.
I'm convinced the new East SIde Subway (2nd OR 3rd Avenue) would be built, IRT, if not BMT. The 2nd Avenue el would almost certainly come down. The 6th and 9th would stay, though the latter might be abandoned south of 53rd Street. This would benefit the IRT by eliminating a great deal of the drag the Manhattan Railways placed on their bottom line
(Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.) (Why do you assume the Queens Boulevard Line (or equivalent, or maybe more than one) wouldn't have been built without the IND.)
By the time the latter stages of the IND were built, the auto and road era was well underway, having really gotten rolling in the 1920s. My belief is that the city's push to build the IND, and replace the Els, extended subway construction in New York by a couple of decades. What subway lines were built in other places in the 1930s and 1940s? Was it not the era of trolley companies going under and tracks being removed?
Later on, you had the federal money era, with the Washington Metro, BART, MARTA, etc. New York botched that one for sure.
No doubt, however, we'd be better off if the IND had been built as a compliment rather than a replacement. I still think the Fulton Street line was worth it, but the 6th Avenue line should have been built on Third Avenue -- the BMT Broadway line is right next to in in Midtown, and the 8th Avenue line is right next to it in the village. And the Concourse Line should have replaced the 3rd Avenue el, rather than running right next to the Jerome Avenue Line. Make those two changes to the IND, and we'd be much better served today.
Larry, The State St tunnel of Chicago was stared in the 30's as a Roosecelt WPA gig. Similar money I believe funded some IND construction. CTA then built the Dearborn tunnel and extended it to become the first median (Congress)subway opened June 1958 (in time for a primary election Richard J. Daley). In the early 50's Cleveland opened the 'Rapid' now the Red Line.
There might have been that would have run through northern Queens extanding from the Astoria Line. There also might have been a subway tunnel to Staten Island connecting with the SIRT.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the big thing would have been connecting up the crosstown lines -- L turning north on 8th, and none of that Dead Essex, the Nightmare on Chambers Street, and the Music Tunnels of 42nd. Was the "7" built after the IND? It would have been wide-body BMT and turned north and south, maybe on the far west side like City Hall would like it to now.
The 7 was built before the IND. Originally the Steinway Tubes were bult for trolley use, so the 7 would have been IND sized anyway, in order to use those tunnels.
Actually, other than the Steinway tubes, the 7 Line could handle IND/BMT sized cars. It was built to those specs. The stations of course would have to be shaved off, but the line itself can handle BMT clearances.
(Picked up from the BMT Easterm vs. Southern thread.)
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
Given the caveats that LaGuardia and Moses wouldn't have been able to harass the hell out of the private companies. AND that the basic structures of the Dual Contracts and competition survived -- I can't speculate on the railroads, but minimally, based on history, I would expect the following:
The Brooklyn Loop System would have been completed (Brooklyn Bridge-Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street Tunnel). Ashland Place connection would be built. However, Brooklyn Bridge service would be perhaps half what it was in 1939.
The BMT would have gotten a west side subway up Central Park West and an east side subway to compete with the IRT, possibly also merging with the NYW&B.
The BMT would have gotten what is now the GG, partly elevated, and probably forming a loop in Manhattan with Broadway or the new east side line.
The only BMT els I see coming down (absent, of course
I'm still looking for someone who has the e-mail address or phone number for a regular eBay seller who goes by goodoletimes.
My browser will not let me connect with him.
Anyone have his info? He's out of White Plains, NY.
Clueless here, I've been wondering the same for awhile...
I used eBay's message service to ask him to contact you. a copy of that address is in your inbox.
I used eBay's message service to ask him to contact you. a copy of that REQUEST is in your inbox.
Make a temporary change in your browser settings to make it easier to get cookies. Once you do this, make the request for the e-mail address (if you're an e-bay registered user) then change your cookie setting back.
I've been having all kinds of problems with Optimum Online (cable modem) the last few days. A call to them gives the recorded message of "connectivity, home page and email problems."
I'm mentioning this particularly that if anyone's emailed me recently, even if I've gotten it, I haven't been able to succesfully send a reply.
Another fine product from the Dolan family
I've had no problems with Optimum at all in the several months we've had it. At least no functional problems - they tried billing us even though we had paid for a year's service ahead of time.
I've had it for well over a year and have had no problems. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for my cablevision TV reception.
They have instituted a new junk mail filter on 11/26 that might be effecting your email. You have to opt out of this new feature.
Call the general cablevision customer service number, ask for optimum online (don't hit buttons, wait for a human), then when yuo get that person ask for tech support. MAKE THEM transfer you to tech support, you'll get 2nd level that way.
Paul, the day I got my 'puter and connected to Optimum in Aug '01 I had problems with their email and Outlook Express. I already had a Hotmail account to backup my webtv and so just started using Hotmail exclusively. It has worked greatly and its free.
Jeffrey, the problem was with both in- and out-bound email. I also couldn't FTP at all. I think it may have just started working again.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Amazingly, I always have problems with my "paid" email account (which I rarely use because of that) and never have any problems with my hotmail account, which is free. Go figure.
Looks like Salaam needs to visit the Deutsch Bahn! Thats an ICE-T, the tilting version, their answer to the Acela. The ICE 3 apparantly also has a similar view, but the window is smaller.
By the way, thats from the The European Railway Picture Gallery's ICE
I thought this was an Ice-T:
:-)
Yeah, well I thought this was an Ice-T:
And while riding in this ICE train, if you're around the Karlsruhe area, you can witness the trolleys operating on the same tracks as you are! Never a problem in over 10 years! But our FRA says that's not possible. Of course, the chances are they've never visited Europe and seen the fantastic rail and transit systems that exist there. They put Western Hemisphere systems to shame.
That is truely amazing, somebody needs to tell the FRA about that, I'm sure they'd all have a collective heart attack!
Wow, strange yet true, an ICE 1 leaves:
And, right from the same tracks, a GT8-100D follows a bit later:
This is incredible, like having a R32 pull into the LIRR tracks at New York Penn , or, better, a Rt101/102 K-car pull into 30th St's Lower Platform, right in between an AEM7 and an Acela!
Not only that, but they manage to make it dual voltage, 750 DC overhead tram wire and Deutsch Bahn's 15 kV AC, 16 2/3 Hz. Oh, and now I see that they have a Bistro car! Can you actually eat while riding a tram around the city, or is it an advertizing gimmick for a local eatery?
I've seen them in Jan Bochmann's Bahn 3.80, and wondered why they were listed twice, under MUs, and under LRT equipment, but just wrote it off as a misprogram, never would I think that it was like this. I'm guessing, but Karlsruhe is down in a valley or canyon formed by the Rhine, right? Does that mean that there isn't the room for a segregated station for both the LRT and heavy rail?
Too bad that all ICEs through Karlsruhe are ICE 1s, it'd be fun to ride into the station and look like your ICE-3 or ICE-T was about to run down a GT-8!
Well, now at least I have another place on my list when I get out of this third world country (at least from our completely backward view on rail travel), and get an overseas internship, hopefully with a Eurail pass. But that's at least 3 years away.
Yes, there are Bistro cars on the Karlsruhe network, and you may enjoy eating and drinking. Some of the cars have panoramic sightseeing windows on ther roofs!
Karlsruhe is about 100 miles south of Frankfurt. If the jokers at the FRA could squeeze out a ticket to that city and then journey to Karlsruhe, yes, they'd have a heart attack - probably well-deserved!
A segregated station isn't of importance here. The trolleys stop not only in front of the Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof (main railway station) but inside of it! At the southen end of the station there's a tracks connection from the city trolley system to the national railway network (Deutsche Bahn). This is not the only connection of this type - there are others around the city where the two systems cross over each other. And Karklsruhe has the longest one way trolley ride - just over 3 hours one way! Of all the European sustems I've had the pleasure of visiting, this is by far #1. And to think the transit "con-sultants" haven't got the intelligence to even copy it over here. Perhaps there's not enough money in fees to earn from such a simple but workable system.
"And Karklsruhe has the longest one way trolley ride - just over 3 hours one way!"
Some time ago you asked the question on SubTalk, Joe, what was the longest trolley ride in the world, and I don't think you ever told us the answer. So have you finally got round to telling us now (8-) ? And how long is it in miles/kilometres?
Fytton
Maybe you guys are being a bit unfair on railway and submay administrations in the USA. Public officials have to operate within the law of their country. To operate trains and subways (or LRVs) on the same tracks in the USA (other than by time-segregation, as is proposed in Camden, NJ) would need a change in the law. How difficult/slow/expensive would it be to get that change? So you work with the law you have.
Incidentally, didn't streetcars once operate into (not just outside of) Stillwell Avenue station at one time? (I'm not saying the tracks linked up with the subway.)
>>> How difficult/slow/expensive would it be to get that change? <<<
The point was, no one is even suggesting that the law be changed. A certain inertia exists for the status quo. If no one even suggests a change, pointing out what the result would be if the law were changed, no change will occur.
Tom
And while riding in this ICE train, if you're around the Karlsruhe area, you can witness the trolleys operating on the same tracks as you are!
Atlantic City to Ocean City trolleys (the Shore Fast Line, "Short Line" on the Monopoly board) ran on the West Jersey and Seashore (subsidiary of PRR) between Pleasantville and Somers Point. The motormen had to be engineers.
Where in the 59 st station is the redbird trip going to leave from?
Here's the entire routing:
Redbird Excursion Routing 12/8/02
0930 - Board at middle platform - 59 St-Columbus Circle
Proceed south via A line to Pitkin Yard, relay and then operate to Rockaway Park. Return north via A line to Jay St, cross to B2 Track. B2 track to north of W. 4th St, relay, operate south via B1 Track to south of B'way/Lafayette, then cross to BJ1/J1 Tracks and proceed via J and L lines to Rockaway Parkway. LUNCH BREAK.
Proceed north to north of B'way Junction, relay, and operate via Q1/P1 Tracks to north of Atlantic Ave. Change ends, operate AGAINST THE NORMAL DIRECTION OF TRAFFIC via JA1/J1 Tracks to B'way Junction, then north via J line to 111 St and relay.
Then proceed south via J line to J3/4 Track at B'way/Myrtle, then north via M line to Metropolitan Ave. Then south via M and J lines to Chambers St, where guests will disembark.
what cars will the train consist of?
Should be a mix of R-29 'birds with two single R-33's on either end (for regulation B-Division safety trip valves).
what will the rollsigns be?
I meant
Will the roll signs be from the A division or will B division rollsigns be put into the cars?
Nah nah, I'm sure the regular rollsigns will be kept, but Rollsign Fun (TM) amongst the railfans will occur.
would a BMT standard rollsign fit, and how hard would it be to put in?
BMT standard roll signs were printed on both sides, much the same as the R-1/9 side route curtains. Redbird curtains are printed on one side only and alternate between two small-font and two large-font signs. They are staggered in such a way so that one small-font and one large-font sign will line up in the interior and exterior slots. If you don't set them properly, one or both signs will be upside down.
What I'm getting at is that a BMT standard route curtain would not be compatible with the mechanisms found on the Redbirds.
We actually had BMT signs on the train, including the 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and QJ trains...I have a few photos...
Carlton e-mail: carlwal@hotmail.com
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
I'm glad it went so well and that everyone seemed to have a good time.
NYD-ERA runs several trips a year to various places. Come with us!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I hope a railfan brings a B-divsions rollsigns with leter & destination markings for the B-division only.
No necessary....see my other posting on this...
would my BMT Btype rollsign fit?
hey how many of us are going on the redbird trip?
hey how many of us are going on the redbird trip?
Azn: Well as of right now its you and me.
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'm going to.
I'll be in attendance as well with a relative and a friend.
-Stef
Hey, Stef: how were you able to fanagal the day off???
I found ways. I saved my birthday (10/30) as a holiday and requested 12/8. Got it. Veterans Day was also saved, and will be taking the day off on 12/9. I will have a four day weekend, which is quite rare for me.
-Stef
I will be there also with my #7 hat. Out of loyalty to the cars of my "yout" I will sit in either R-33WF car.
It appears from a previous post that lunch will be in Carnarsie.
Also wonder if a quick discharge stop can be made at Essex street so for those of us who want to head north. Would save me time getting back to Penn Station.
[Also wonder if a quick discharge stop can be made at Essex street so for those of us who want to head north. Would save me time getting back to Penn Station.]
I believe that stops at both Essex Street and Canal Street will be made, making it as convenient as possible for all to get home. Listen for the announcements over the train PA system to be certain.
I got my tickets..And armed with my camera :)
Don't forget me!
This is my first official railfan trip, and there's one bit I don't quite understand: will there be 145 railfans clamoring for the railfan window and five empty cars?
Wrong David----Some will sit and enjoy the view especially on the way to the Rockaways..........I'll let the other 144 stay in the front window and look out the back because when they change ends........
..........I'll let the other 144 stay in the front window and look out the back because when they change ends........
Alan: I hope your referring to the train and not the railfans...
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
There is always the last car, not the best place to be but a decent "alternate" railfan window will just do for those who want to improvise and see what just got past them.
Nothing wrong with the rear railfan window, except in tunnels it is darker because of no headlights (not like the headlights help that much anyhow).
--Brian
I will be there.
--Mark
I'll be there....... I have to be.....If I'm not, Who will open the doors to let you all on???? See you on Sunday!!!
-Mark
Mr. Conductor? Oh my, can I be one too?!?
I promise to be a good little boy.
-Stef
Yeah, Stef, but it's your day to FOAM!!! :)
Hey Doug, do you still have any of those "No Foaming" signs?:)
Mark, you're qualified for IRT equipment?
-Stef
How did you get so lucky to work on the fan trip?? Anyway enjoy I'll be working on the #5 Line Redbirds Sunday.
He's got friends in high places...LOL! :)
Sending another message, this is my first fan trip and I will have my camera ready. See you on the Nine Thirty from five-nine. Does this mean we will never hear the end of it from Fred since we will not be on his Sea-Beach line?
Nah, Fred got the thrill of a lifetime last spring on that Triplex train. It ran nonstop along the Sea Beach open cut and Fred was wearing a silly grin the whole time.:)
And did Fred wore a blue chain with the letters NX on it during the D-Type Triplex trip?
I don't believe so. Can't say for sure because I wasn't there.
Even if he did, it would have been obscured by the foam. Fortunately I had a change of clothes with me :)
--Mark
Well now we don't want this trip on Subway to be hampered by a "person in need of medical assistance" a.k.a. "sick passenger" because Fred was foaming
So far, a little over 130 people have paid, some of whom (including yours truly) are SubTalkers.
The trip hasn't broken even yet, but it's definitely running, so if you're waffling about going, waffle no longer -- send $55 to NYD-ERA (look in the "Upcoming Events" section of nycsubway.org for the address and other information) and you're in!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Barring unforeseen circumstances, I'll be going also.
I can't make it, I got to work that day :(
Not going either-honestly I think it's a bit too much money to go.
Sorry. If I do go, I'll go somewhere to get a pic or 2 of it.
Otherwise I'm a no-go.
I ride Redbirds every single day to and from work. I don't think this trip is necessary for me.
Maybe next time?
#9327 7 Flushing Local
Ditto,
Well, no work that day, however a physics final the next day, along with 2 more finals later in the week will have me pretty well tied down. :(
If only you guys could have planned one week later, I'd be completely free. As it is, I'll have to make my own Railfan trips up there over my winter break. Anybody know if R32s or R38s head out to the Rockaways on A trains? Just wanna get a RFW from somewhere up north to Far Rock or Rockaway Park.
Thanks
The R-32's, R-38's, and R-44's on the A run on both the Lefferts and Far Rockaway branches.
The Rock Park specials (and shuttles) are R-44's.
Not to bust your chops, but this is an IRT Train, not IND/BMT. Who wants to stick BMT signs on a train that never ran there in regular service?
-Stef
It's only a special occasion for railfans only.
Yes, I suppose you're right. R-30 brings up something interesting to think about. In 1991, Corona Yard R-36s were assigned to refuse service on the IRT mainline for a few months until the R-127 work motors arrived on the scene. There was one R-36 car that had a B Division rollsign! I can't recall which car that was, but the signage had letter routes, not numbers. Very strange....
-Stef
Do u have a picture of that train? I'll would like to see that. And why did it that R36 had B division signs on it? Where did u see it at?
Sorry, I don't have pictures. I saw that R-36 in 1991, at Jackson Av on the 2/5. It was assigned to work service temporarily. As to why the R-36 had the sign is unknown at this point. Perhaps, it was meant to be a joke among operating crews.
-Stef
Rollsigns will most likely read 'S' (for Special) or 'No Passengers'.
I love this trip!!!!
Oh yea!!!
The sounds of a Station Agent foaming at the mouth...
-Stef
Alex,
Are they working on the ENY Yard Lead (Y4)?
-Stef
Proceed south via A line to Pitkin Yard, relay...
You mean we're gonna see 76th Street? (duck, run :)
--Mark
Not according to NYC Transit. The consist will be six R-33 singles...should be great for rail"fan"ning!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Since the six car train will be traveling on the B division (IND/BMT) it will depart from the IND lower level platform. See you there on the 8th (too bad we won't be going on my favorite line, the Brighton because there is a G.o. at Atlantic Ave station. The contractor is in the process of laying the foundation for the new ADA elevator and to finish up the yellow tactile warning strip.)
We went through 76th st!
The tiles are bright white, with a purple stripe
Sure you're not getting confused with the stops before Euclid? (The purple pattern ends at Euclid.) The color band at 76th wasn't purple: it was white -- shiny, gleaming white. (We went through pretty fast on the express track -- maybe you just didn't get a good view.)
The color band at 76th wasn't purple: it was white -- shiny, gleaming white.
Just like the walls of the hospital corridors and the coats of those nice men who brought you that comfortable straitjacket :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the fantrip went to Creedmore.
No, the tracks to Creedmore were removed about 30 years ago.
I think he was playing on the Creedmore "mentally" insane aspect of the scenario.
David: It was a fast ride but I did notice the Memorial Plaque to Judge Crater. It certainly was a fantrip not to be repeated. BTW who in blazes mooned us at Williamsburg Plaza.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Heh, we got a few Bronx cheers leaving Crescent Street by some natives who insisted this train was in service.
And to all doubters about the 76th Street portion of the trip, I haven't played my video back, but I know I have the portal from Pitkin Yard clearly visible. I remember seeing a four car train of R-46s doing a yard move into 76th Street in a rail shining operation just prior to our leaving. So BELIEVE.
--Mark
You've got a lot of doubting Thomases to contend with.:)
Yeah, well if the Georges and the Harrys and the Ethels believe, it's a majority :)
--Mark
Don't forget Lucy, Ricky, and Fred (Mertz).:)
I did find a German website that showed a route for the Fulton Street Line after Euclid Ave. Like I've said 2 tracks go to Pitkin Yard. 2 tracks go to Grant Ave and 4 tracks continue along. It doesn't say the next stop would have been 76 Street. But it shows the route going in that direction and beyond. The map is on this website:
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/ind1.htm
The map is about 3/4 the way down. The entire site is in German. I was able to get an English translation. However the translation did not entend all the way down the page
You do remember that ALL trains that go to 76th Street also stop at Willowby. It's in the 1923 Rules and Regulations for Train Operation on the Independent.
As we entered Pitkin Yard, I was wondering why we were laid over for so long, watching a couple of R-44's pass us by. Of course now knowing the surprise that followed, I can honestly say it was worth the wait. Those white tiles certainly would do a recently overhauled station justice!
Regards,
Mark Valera
Starting next Friday night (12/6 and continuing through the weekend, the following GO will be running:
Tracks A3 and A4 out of service from north of Prospect Park to north of Atlantic Ave.
Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended.
R and W will operate normal or as per other GOs.
N will terminate on F4 Track northbound at 36 St, relay, and go into service on F1 Track southbound at 36 St, operating LOCAL from 36 to 59 southbound only.
Q will operate in TWO sections.
Section 1 - Brighton Beach to Prospect Park. Will terminate on A4 Track, relay south of Prospect Park and go into service southbound from A3 Track.
Section 2 - 57/7 to Pacific St. Will operate normal from 57/7 to DeKalb, then accept diverging lineup at X96 and X4, terminating on F3 Track at Pacific St southbound.
Northbound service will originate on F3 Track at Pacific St, cross to F2 Track north of Pacific St, then cross to A4 track south of DeKalb Ave and operate normal to 57/7.
How will people get from Pacific/Atlantic to Prospect Park and vice versa? Shuttle bus? And also, what does double ended mean when you say the FS is double ended?
Train Operator on each end of the train.
-Stef
Last time they terminated Q's at the Park they didn't double end the shuttle or even increase its headways even though the GO orginaly called for it.
Sounds like people might be urge to use the IRT(#4 train) from Atlantic to Franklin and transfer to the Franklin Shuttle to Prospect Park. Or if theres no shuttle bus, then they might use the B41 bus upstairs at Atlantic. I remember the last the GO was in effect, Franklin Ave (IRT) was unusually crowded that weekend.
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
Shuttle bus on street level or FS to Botanic Garden, then 2, 3, or 4 to Atlantic Ave.
Why not merge the Q and N into one line for the weekend (57/7 to 86 via Sea Beach)? Or did that prove too confusing the last time it was done (on the West End)?
That was the weekend from hell. The ONLY train running in the South was the Q (and the shuttles, but they don't really count).
I seem to recall a number of weekends when the Q ran both ways on the West End and N service was normal. There was only one weekend (IIRC) when the Q substituted for both the W and the N.
That still doesn't beat that other weekend (two weeks later, I think) when the N ran down the Sea Beach and back up the Brighton express.
I'm surprised they didn't try running the Q down the N to 86th St for the weekend. Hope they won't have any bottlenecks as a result!
-Stef
What are the signs on the Q going to say? Atlantic isn't in the bottom roll, is it?
Yes it is since it was used on the W when it ended there every weekend untill 9/8/02.
That was the top roll sign - northern terminals. I don't know if the Atlantic Ave-Pacific St is on the lower roll for southern terminals.
Guess what I saw on a southbound R Train today while on northbound Q somewhere between Canal and 34th Street (Don't remember exactly).
This was a R-44 with the electronic signs, but the front bullet was
R Diamond --- BUT BROWN DIAMOND.
Any chance of seeing the Chambers Street R reappear????
an R44 on the R line,i thoght they were only on the A,and a diamond R
cool,but is that the only R44 on another or are there more.
til next time
WHAT??! Now that's really something, a R diamond sign hasn't been seen since 1986-1987. The Nassau special R's had brown rollsigns? And BTW, the R runs R46's not R44's.
I saw that sign before, but I don't quite remember the car number...I think 55xx or 56xx..
Carlton
Cleanairbus
The one that was out on Sunday was 6186, because I saw it at Pacific Southbound while waiting to leave with my N.
I'm still awaiting a convincing explanation for the brown N I first saw on 10/28/01, the first day N service was restored after the 9/11 reroutes.
I think I saw that as well, can't explain that. Now the N with a BROWN bullet is beyond me, maybe the yellow got so dirty it 'mutated' into the brown color or the length of it hasn't been used. Maybe its a rollsign prior to the GOH and it didn't get replaced, could be anything...........
The only thing I can say was a possible Sea Beach to Chambers/Nassau train, that was never implemented. Anything other than that, or further north than Chambers, I would assume would not be called a N. For example, a rush hour or other service extension; a Jamaica to Sea Beach train is just an extension of the J, and would probably be called "J" (or "Z"). And even if they did a Metropolitan to Sea Beach train, it would be the M, or if the M was still on West End, I would assume they would call it some other letter to avoid total confusion by calling it "N".
My guess is, it was just a thought as a possible train that would have run like the R that used to run to Chambers. But anything is possible.
BTW, does anyone know of any other brown letters on the rollsigns besides J, M, Z, R, and the crazy brown N (which I know exists, because I saw the photo).
That isn't brown; it's the old yellow, which was reddened to make a white letter visible. There was a circle "R" like that on an R-46, and there are also "B"s like that.
I don't know why they didn't simply use a dark yellow like C0C000 instead of adding more red which changes the hue altogether.
That's not yellow. It's brown or possibly orange.
It's yellow-orange (and comes up a bit brownish in the picture), but is still more orange than what is used for 6th Av. It was apparently an attempt to use white letters with yellow (probably to more easily standardize the printing process). It was done on a Metrocard stations list right before it was in all stations. The NR bullets used the orange normally used for 6th av. while BDFQ used a deeper reddish-orange.
So you think that rollsign is a relatively recent one, from the mid-90's? Interesting.
It's yellow-orange (and comes up a bit brownish in the picture), but is still more yellow than what is used for 6th Av. It was apparently an attempt to use white letters with yellow (probably to more easily standardize the printing process). It was done on a Metrocard stations list right before it was in all stations. The NR bullets used the orange normally used for 6th av. while BDFQ used a deeper reddish-orange.
That's probably #4320 and that's a GOLD "N" not a brown one. A handful of Slants are wearing white-letter "N" signs.
wayne
Looks like a pre GOH roll sign is still there since the N & R bullets were a darker yellow and had white letters on R32 rollsigns & other car classes. Did the yellow start to fade or was there a special N that may never have came to light?
That's what everyone says, but I saw it with my own eyes. It was brown, as brown as the M. If it doesn't look that way in the photo I posted, it's because of inaccurate color representation in whatever film I was using or in the scanning process.
I don't remember the car number offhand.
Since you saw it with your own eye then I believed u, it must be the film or your scanner that didn't presented the accurate color of the whole image. I remember I had that confrontation you on this topic on other railfan message board site. What was name of site?
I believed that N was light brown or dark yellow near orange.
I remember when N trains used to run to Forest Hills in the early 80's, R46's assigned to N service always had that kind of dark yellow with the white N. Pre GOH R32's had similar roll signs for both N and R bullets.
As for the brown diamond R, it was used between 1985 and 1987. It replaced the original yellow diamond R for service to Chambers. My guess is that they changed the diamond to brown because maybe 4 Ave riders may have gotten confused between Broadway and Nassau St R trains. You know how commuters can be.
The Brown "R" bullet diamond was a leftover from the Chambers Street "Bankers Special" trains. Someone at Jamaica likely didn't turn the curtain to the correct yellow R bullet, since the consist maybe came from a "F" or a "G" lash-up.
Any chance of seeing the Chambers Street R reappear????
Nope! Sleep over it! Cause that aint gonna happen.
The November Subtalk report is in!
12,123 messages were posted.
TOP 10 POSTERS:
SelkirkTMO 880 7.26%
GP38 Chris 530 4.37%
Steve B-8AVEXP 411 3.39%
David J. Greenberger 338 2.79%
RonInBayside 333 2.75%
#4 Sea Beach Fred 299 2.47%
Peter Rosa 232 1.91%
AlM 231 1.90% TIED
JohnS 231 1.90% TIED
Paul Matus 228 1.88%
30.63% of posts were made by 2.78% of posters
55 people posted only once
39 people posted twice
24 people posted thrice
196 people posted 10 times or less. This accounts for 54.44% of the population
SelkirkTMO (this month's most prolific poster award wiener) posted more messages than the bottom 209 Subtalkers, 58.06% of the population.
The top 10 posters posted as many posts combined as the 309 lowest posters (there were 360 posters total).
The average poster made 33.675 posts
The median number of posts made by a single individual was 8
50% of all posts were posted by the top 24 posters and by the bottom 336 of posters.
Neato. Thanks for the stats.
Damit, I didn't even place this time. What's a guy gotta do?
And I just found out that I lost be ONE MEASLEY POST. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
>>> And I just found out that I lost be ONE MEASLEY POST. <<<
And what did you lose? If your greatest goal in life is being a prolific Sub Talk poster, you really need to get a life. Please spare us from trolls and similar useless posts for which you were at one time (long ago) notorious .
Tom
When I saw the subject line, I thought the message had been posted by a girl aged 12 or so, if you catch my drift.
Which city has the best-looking small subway cars (under 60') in their fleet?
1)MBTA Blue Line Hawker-Siddely
2)NYCTA R-142
3)CTA 3200's
4)SEPTA M-4 MFSE
5)NYCTA R-62
6)PATH PA 1
7)SEPTA M-3 (Almond Joys)
8)CTA 2400's
9)PATH PA-3
10)CTA 2200's
11)CTA 2600's
12)NYCTA R-33/36 (World's Fair)
13)CTA 2000's
14)NYCTA R-28/33 Mainline (Redbirds)
All cars cited were built 1960 to present.
14)NYCTA R-28/33 Mainline (Redbirds)
--Brian
Second.
NYCTA R-62/62A.
Wayne
SEPTA M4 MFSE...fast, comfortable, and relatively new. Their acceleration and braking between stations is amazing, and they have the best railfan window, with a row of seats right behind it facing the window.
Please have your dad e-mail in re: scanner frequencies for FDNY
I like the sentimental favorite, the Redbirds, of course, BUT my all-time favorites aren't in regular service any more:
1) PATH Class K/MP-51 (1958)
2) NYCT R-15 (1950)
3) NYCT R-21 (1957)
4) NYCT Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-V (1938)
Out of today's crop, I simply DETEST the Vultures (R-142/142A), but find the R62A singles with the railfan window to be quite appealing.
wayne
My all-time favorites of these small guys are the R-33/36 World's Fair, especially the singles.
I like the look of the CTA 2000s, kinda like an R40 Slant, but a bit neater, perhaps what the Slant would have looked like if done correctly. Sadly, despite having lived there for 4 years, I have never ridden the Chicago El, and missed my chance to see the 2000s in regular service. I also always wanted to see the 3200s with the Pantographs on the Skokie Swift, but I'd better hurry, cause it sounds like Skokie finally eased it's restrictions on third rail, and soon the Skokie Swift will go the way of the Electroliner.
I was gonna vote for the M-4, but I hate the automated announcements and bing-bong when the doors close, after getting off a bell-ringing PATCO car, the last thing I want to hear is some computerized voice reminding me to watch the closing doors followed by some annoying electronic gonging. I've found it especially bad between 2nd and 15th, where the MSFE stops every friggin 3 blocks (2nd; 5th; 8th; 11th; 13th; 15th; ugh), sometimes less, and the announcements come practically on top of each other, no sooner has it finished "...ing doors." then it has to start up with the next station stuff. At least theres a break on the 'express' run between 15th and 30th St to recover, before another onslaught once clear of the Schuylkill and the 'Local' Sub-Surface trolleys.
BTW: Did the Skokie Swift ever provide a one seat ride to downtown Chicago, or did you always have to change at Howard to a Purple or Red train?
Skokie Swift was always Dempster to Howard; you'd have to change at Howard for Red or Purple service.
OH Yes - the late-model PCCs (were they mid 60s?) car #1-#51.
and don't forget the erstwhile CCC 4000's. THOSE were unique!
wayne
AFAIK cars 1-50 were singles used on the Evanston line. They were built at the same time as the rest of the 6000s, and used parts cannibalized from Green Hornet streetcars. They could and did run in trains; I saw a few Evanston Express trains with singles and married pair 6000s intermixed.
The 4000s were heavyweight (for Chicago, anyway) all-steel cars. At 38 tons apiece, they weighed about the same as the R-series IRT cars.
I rode on the 2000s a few times when they ran on what is now the Red line. Frankly, I thought they weren't as loud in the State St. subway as the 6000s or even the 2600s. Perhaps the 2000s were better insulated. Their blinker doors were very quiet. Ditto for the doors on the 2200s. The doors on the 6000s were a bit on the loud side.
Here's one for you: I saw a solid 6-car train of 2000s on the Red line in August of 1991. That was as surprising as that solid 8-car train of 2200s I spotted leaving O'Hare on the Blue line in 1997 or 1998.
This answer may be biased, considering where I live, but my choice is the SEPTA M-4 cars. However the car type that comes in a strong second is the PATH cars (both 1 AND 3). Hopefully, I will make a trip to Chicago to get a ride on the CTA in 2003, and to Boston to ride the T.
#12, the R33/R36 WF are the best looking cars under 60' with the original blue paint aka Bluebirds, man they were just fabulous in that scheme but I love them in the Redbirds scheme also, soon another set of cars with quality to be gone into the sunset & into history :-(
For those interested, I have the latest car/fleet assignment matrix available. It's MS Excel 2000 format (about 50Kb). The numbers are verified as of 12/01/02. As usual, I'll send it to any that request it by E-mail. (Include your Subtalk Handle so I can update my mail-list)
Crain's Business New York wrote the following in last week's magazine:
Do you think it will ever happen? It seems too easy...it probably won't get built.
--Brian
I read somewhere a reason why the PATH doesn't go further than Newark is because a bridge wasn't built after the station. It was probably about 1/4 mile after the station since PATH uses some trackage to turn trains. If the bridge was built the route would continue in the general direction of Newark Airport. Some construction would have to be done to actually have it go to the airport.
It wouldn't actually be a one-seat ride. Passengers would still have to transfer to the airport monorail at the NJT/Amtrak station. Basically, I see this plan as yet another grasping-at-straws idea to help lower Manhattan, not unlike the "Brookfield" LIRR plan.
What do you think this is, Cleveland? New York/Newark is too big to be bothered with little things like transit to the airports.
-- Ed Sachs
No, it's much more sensible than the Brookfield idea. The NJT train service from Newark Airport station to NY Penn is not frequent enough to be really convenient. If the PATH could be extended from Newark Penn to Newark Airport without undue expense, it would be a real net gain, since there would be frequent service from the airport to Manhattan - unlike the Brookfield idea, no-one else would have to *lose* a service to enable the airport users to gain one. (O.K., the PATH would get more crowded. But no subway service is evicted from its tunnel.)
So far as airports are concerned, the concept of a one-seat ride is fuzzy anyway. You can ride the Airtrain from various stations throughout Newark Airport to the train station (which happens to be off the airport and across a highway). If the Airport train station was inside one of the airport terminals, users from the other terminals would still have to use the Airtrain to reach it: the majority still wouldn't have a one-seat ride. Different airports have different arrangements - some have internal transit trains, some have moving walkways, some make you walk miles through corridors. Which is better - a "one-seat ride" to downtown that follows a half-mile walk through the airport, or an Airtrain ride to a transfer point?
Why the blanket assumption that an airport circulator can't possibly be integrated into the broader transit system?
I don't know if the Newark system could possibly accomodate PATH trains (it obviously couldn't in its current incarnation as a monorail, but are the curves and such compatible with PATH?). The JFK system could have easily accomodated an extension/branch of the A train -- the AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A -- but the Port Authority didn't feel like allowing for such an arrangement.
Just look at the Piccadilly line, which has two airport stations.
I don't know if the Newark system could possibly accomodate PATH trains (it obviously couldn't in its current incarnation as a monorail, but are the curves and such compatible with PATH?). The JFK system could have easily accomodated an extension/branch of the A train -- the AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A -- but the Port Authority didn't feel like allowing for such an arrangement.
It's been a while since I was last on the EWR monorail, but from what I recall the curves weren't too bad.
"Why the blanket assumption that an airport circulator can't possibly be integrated into the broader transit system?"
...
"Just look at the Piccadilly line, which has two airport stations."
It depends on the airport design.
Heathrow Terminal 4 is a major distance away from Terminals 1-3, which are clustered. More like LGA's Marine Terminal. At JFK and Newark, each terminal is enough of a walk from the next that walking is a pain if possible at all, but a full fledged subway ride would be overkill.
Also, at Heathrow, the walk from Terminal 1, 2, or 3 to the Undeground station is considerable. There would have been some real advantage to a smaller scale system between terminals.
Mmm - but the Piccadilly Line "Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3" station (nee Heathrow Central) is a long walk through a tunnel from Terminal 3, partially helped by moving pavements. If you get the Heathrow Express, the reverse applies - the station is at Terminal 3, so Terminals 1 & 2 customers get the long walk. At Gatwick, the airport station is at the South Terminal; if your flight is from the North Terminal you have to use the internal transit train within the airport. At Stansted the station is at the main terminal, but the gate areas are linked to the main terminal/check-in area by internal transit trains. At Luton the airport station is off the airport altogether, and linked by a free shuttle bus, rather like Howard Beach (but the connecting commuter train service is more frequent than the A line at Howard Beach!). Not sure what the arrangement at London City Aiport with the Docklands LR is going to be - when it opens, I'll go and look.
At least London's airports *are* all rail-linked....
but the Piccadilly Line "Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3" station (nee Heathrow Central) is a long walk through a tunnel from Terminal 3
Better than Barcelona - a walk across the airport car parks to get to the station.
Yes, Piccadilly Line indeed has two stations, but it's an hour to Piccadilly Circus, stopping at every little hamlet along the way (except for the brief express run), much better solution is the £12 Heathrow Express to Paddington, which reaches speeds of 100MPH+.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Piccadilly Line, and its picturesque stations, just that it takes forever and a day to get to downtown, whereas the Heathrow Express takes, what, about 15 minutes. Can't beat that.
wayne
The plan (which dates back to 1972 then know as the Plainfield corridor route) envisions either service to the EWR rail station or right into the Terminal area itself.
The strange thing is that the original pland from 1972 had a EWR rail station being built near Mclellan street where passengers would transfer to a airport Monorail.
The EWR Airtrain is more of a one seat ride than most one seat rides like DCA's Metro or the new JFK Airtrain (when it opens).
The EWR rail station is about 1/2 mile (or less) from Terminal C at EWR, Terminal C is home to Continental Airlines and is the busiest carrier at EWR.
The Airtrain takes you from the rail station directly into the Terminals themselves, when you come down off the Airtrain escalators at one of the Terminals you are right in front of the gate screening area.
It takes about 4-5 minutes to travel from the EWR rail station to Terminal C, which is quicker than walking from your car into the terminal.
I wish there was a way to extend PATH to Elizabeth, near where the Northeast Corridor's stop is located. The most annoying passengers on the Corridor enter or exit at Broad Street Elizabeth Station.
Slight correction: The NEC station is "Elizabeth" (to differentiate from North Elizabeth and the no longer in existence South Elizabeth); Broad Street, Elizabeth refers to the not in use CNJ station downstairs.
PATH extentions have been proposed using the CNJ ROW for years including going all the way to Plainfield. The last serious proposal many years ago never got anywhere possibly because the suburban towns along the ROW feared inner city youths would have too easy access to their towns. There also has been talk more recently (without funding) for a light rail line from Plainfield through Elizabeth, Jersey Gardens Mall, the Manhattan Ferry (which doesn't exist yet), IKEA, and on to Newark Airport.
Even though the official name of the NEC station in downtown Elizabeth is "Elizabeth" as you pointed out, 99% of the trainmen announce it as "Broad Street, Elizabeth". This is to avoid confusion with North Elizabeth, especially since a large number of customers from that area don't speak or understand English quite well.
I never understood that proposal of PATH being extended to Plainfield. I don't have exact numbers, and I'm probably exaggerating, but there are probably more passengers who get on or off at Elizabeth each day then if you add up the passengers at Roselle Park, Cranford, and Plainfield COMBINED!! That's why a high capacity line with frequent service (every 5-10 minutes) would make sense at Elizabeth. The platform there is NEVER empty!
To defend you further: The NEC station has an exit ont he NY boudn platform to "Broad Street:.
It is at Broad Street, but it never has been the "Broad Street Station." Show me in a timetable where it is listed as such. The CNJ was.
PATH to "Broad St, Elizabeth sounds like a cool plan. I'd rather pay $1.50 per trip over the $7 round trip only good during off-peak. Maybe the run can loop over to Union by Kean University, then east on Morris Ave to the Elizabeth Station.
how about up the rawhway valley line to summit. the nimbys would have a fun with that plan
Are there any left and what line I be in NYC in 2 weeks
Ohh.. You mean REDBIRDS.. That we have.
..[Mostly on the 7]-[Some on the 5]-[Limited on the 4]<..
I presume.
The 7 is about three-quarters Redbirds, 5 is 50/50
the 2, 3, & 6 have limited stocks.
The 2, 3 & 6 is Redbird free, however a Redbird or 2 does occasionally run on the 2 [maybe the 3] but it would be a better chance that you will see it on a weekend. BTW, the limited stocks is on the 4 & 5.
Never, absolutely never, on the 3. The 3 has been R-62A-only since the 80's, without exception.
The occasional (rare) Redbird 2's are usually on weekdays, borrowed from the 5. Weekend service has fewer Redbirds total, and it's hard for the 2 to borrow a train from the 5 in Brooklyn on a weekend since the 5 doesn't go to Brooklyn on weekends (though, if necessary, a 5 train at Bowling Green could loop through South Ferry and go into 2 service at Chambers).
There are also occasional R-62A 2's now. I saw one in June and another in September. (Both were bona fide 2's, not mislabeled 3's or 1's.)
I might have seen an R-33 or an R-36 WF on the 3 some time ago,
but I am not sure.
I know I saw a Redbird 3 in the past before, I saw it in a pic at 148 St WITH 3 train rollsigns but if it was in service is unknown. I don't think it was a R33/R36 WF it looked like a R33 mainline but I am not too sure
The 7 is about three-quarters Redbirds, 5 is 50/50
the 2, 3, 4, & 6 have limited stocks.
Hate to say it but those numbers aren't as high. I only saw 1 set of Redbirds outside rush hour on the 5 and no more than 10 total. The 2 doesn't get any on a regular basis, the 3 never does, the 4 had at least one set for now, and the 6 doesn't have any. The number of Redbirds on the 7 is now probably closer to 60 percent.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
***************************************************
Amtrak said last week that it has countersued the Canadian-French consortium that built the trouble-plagued Acela Express trains for its premium Northeast Corridor services, asking for more than $200 million in damages.
The lawsuit comes almost exactly one year after one member of the consortium – Bombardier Inc. of Montreal – filed a $200 million suit against Amtrak, charging that the national passenger railroad refused to pay for cost overruns caused by Amtrak's indecision and failure to live up to the contract, according to the Washington Post.
Amtrak's motion to dismiss the Bombardier suit was denied September 30. It is appealing. Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black said on November 21 in Washington that Amtrak had to countersue by Wednesday, the day the suit was actually filed, or lose the right to do so.
Amtrak's countersuit included no major issues that have not already been aired in public. It said all the train sets were delivered at least a year late, some more than two years late. The suit also said the trains have failed to meet operating-performance targets included in the contract, costing Amtrak millions of dollars in revenue and inconveniencing its customers.
It also contends that Bombardier's original suit broke the contract because the consortium had promised to submit any disputes to arbitration.
Amtrak President David L. Gunn said in a statement that Amtrak will continue to work closely with Bombardier and its partner, Alstom, to solve the Acela's operational problems, but "we must exercise our fiduciary responsibility and seek damages for the extensive delays in delivery and the service problems that are the responsibility of the manufacturer."
Bombardier spokeswoman Carol Sharpe said Bombardier welcomes the Amtrak action because "it's one more step in the resolution of the issue."
Sharpe said the company still thinks its claim is strong, but "we are hopeful we'll come to a settlement" before the suit ever comes to trial. She said some talks between Amtrak and the consortium are continuing. "It's time to get this behind us," she said.
The Acelas, capable of running at 150 mph, have sustained mechanical problems that have led to frequent service delays and cancellations since their introduction in December 2000.
The latest problem, cracks in the yaw damper mounts, caused all Acela trainsets to be pulled out of service for several days along with 15 high-horsepower locomotives (the HHP-8s) that were part of the same order also were pulled out of service.
After a temporary fix was devised, most of the trains returned to service. Of the 20 train sets originally ordered, 12 are in regular service, three are being held in reserve, four are in the shop for maintenance or repairs, and Amtrak has not accepted one for service. All 15 high-horsepower locomotives are back in service.
Bombardier is a shitty car builder, put it like that, the best thing they ever did was produce the R62A's. Look at the AirTrain disaster, the constant breakdowns of R142A's[they're improving] and the Acelas developig stress cracks so early in its career. NYCT should sue them as well for bringing faulty crap in the past.
Remember: R142A Built by Kawasaki = Reliable....... R142 Built by Bombardier= PIece of shit that should have never touched NYCT rails.
My mistake, I thought the Kawasaki R142's were the main car holder. The rest of the entire 142 order should be built by Kawasaki, NYCT should just sever ties with 'Bombadier', they are a money hungry car builder & the MTA should take some fault for paying nearly $1 billion for subway cars that break down more than Kawasaki. Even though the R62A's were successful & saved the MTA from getting the short end of the stick by Kawasaki in 1985-1986, the MDBF now shows a disparity THERE TOO! Its interesting how 2 companies making nearly identical cars have different characteristics, like breakdowns/malfunctions.
Many, many transit systems throughout the world use Bombardier trains and do not have problems. Toronto's oldest Bombardier T1's have been running for 6 years now without a problem. Ottawa's Bombardier Talent O-Trains are one year old and being put through the punishment of running on an old decrepit frieght line that they weren't designed for, and not one problem surfaced there either. Boston's new trains have been running without problems as well, and so have London's Bombardier vehicles. I can go into many more, but I don't want to ramble...
Now I know that NYC's subway cars are built in (by order of New York State) Plattsburgh, instead of the much better-equipped Thunder Bay plant where Toronto's cars are built, so I think that plays a big factor. As for the Acelas, I read in the article how Bombardier charged that Amtrak "refused to pay for cost overruns caused by Amtrak's indecision...". If this is true, that can cause some major headaches in the design and manufacturing phase.
Quite frankly, transit systems and/or governments who pull this kind of thing aren't worth Bombardiers time. They can get along just fine without NYCT's or Amtrak's business (who seem to be more trouble than they're worth), so if neither of these systems ever buy Bombardier equipment again that's fine, they can be another manufacturer's problem.
There was one weekend several years ago where a guard successfully blamed the then new T1s for a spurious door opening and the whole fleet was pulled out of service for a thorough going over. Nothing was found but while the T1s were out of service, all running H5s were put into service and several units of H2/4 were brought up from the Bloor Danforth line. The subsequent investigation never turned up anything in the T1s, and I personally suspect that the guard bumped the open buttons through inattention and got away with laying it on the new train...
-Robert King
Was the train in motion when this happened? That would have been serious (especially if someone was leaning on the doors!!)
I believe it was.
Shortly after, there were two door opening incidents on the Bloor Danforth which were human error. One was a training run where the guard under instruction apparantly misunderstood (quite severely) something and opened the doors of a train running between stations. Then, another guard did an illegal isolation of the last two cars because of an air problem.
The doors never closed and the loop didn't include those cars because of the isolation, so the train in question took off with the doors still open on those cars. If I remember correctly, both of these trains were formed with H2/4 cars.
The last two incidents actually generated a report to the Commission on door opening incidents. It may still be filed away in the reports section of the TTC website if you search back far enough.
-Robert King
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
***************************************************
U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), soon to have new authority over transportation matters before Congress, says that lawmakers should expedite passage of rail security legislation, and offered no reassurance for the long-term financial survival of Amtrak.
With Republicans due to take control of the Senate in January, the incoming chairman of the Commerce Committee said on November 14 he would not back substantial long-term subsidies for the nation’s only city-to-city passenger rail network.
Quoting the senator, Reuters reported, “Subsidization of forever of Amtrak is nothing that this senator will ever support,” the solon said in remarks on the Senate floor. He also criticized a legislative proposal for massive rail aid now stalled on Capitol Hill.
The commerce panel has authorization over Amtrak’s future, and McCain, a former chairman of the panel, is a strident critic of the national railway network.
He will replace Sen. Ernest Hollings (D-S.C.), a champion of Amtrak and fierce opponent of Bush administration proposals to privatize the service.
McCain expressed support for the $1.7 billion homeland security bill which eventually passed, but sharply criticized a separate $22 billion bill which not only included security enhancements but substantial financial aid for Amtrak as well. That part of the measure was excised before it came to a final vote.
Rail security concerns were heightened substantially in October when the FBI alerted law enforcement officials that rail networks, including passenger service, could be targeted for attacks.
Noting his preference for the much smaller security bill, McCain said the bigger measure was misguided. “The reason we don’t have rail security is because of the desire to add billions that don’t have anything to do with rail security,” he said.
A critic of former Amtrak chairman George Warrington, McCain praised his successor, Gunn, as a no-nonsense administrator.
“I’m pleased with some actions taken by the new regime at Amtrak. The new chairman is doing a much better job at making tough decisions,” McCain said. Gunn took over in May from Warrington, who left to head New Jersey Transit.
Gunn overhauled Amtrak’s business plan and over the summer and wrested a $300 million bailout package from Congress and the Bush administration. He has also cut costs and unsuccessful ventures, and directed resources to address the railroad’s antiquated infrastructure.
Amtrak has sought $1.2 billion in federal subsidies for the fiscal year that began October 1, but that funding remains tangled in the unresolved Congressional budget process with lawmakers in the House of Representatives proposing a subsidy of $760 million. Gunn has said the House proposal is inadequate to maintain service. Amtrak is receiving a share of its subsidy in temporary spending measures – continuing resolutions – authorized by Congress until lawmakers approve the Transportation Department budget. Approval will not come until sometime in January at the earliest when the 108th Congress convenes.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak president and CEO David Gunn rode the rails last week, just as he said he would (see D:F, November 11). He took a train to Chicago, and another from Chicago to California. Sacramento Bee reporter Matthew Barrows chronicled some of the events on November 17 while Gunn was there.
Gunn stepped off a train in Sacramento and it was as if a rock star has been spotted on the platform. An Amtrak employee zipped up to him in a cart and grabbed his hand. “It’s a pleasure to meet you,” she gushed. “You’re just... awesome.”
A passenger in a tan trench coat gave Gunn a good-natured thwack on the back and said, “Don’t let ‘em take Amtrak away.” Another voice yelled, “Go get ’em!”
Gunn just smiled and said, “I’ll do my best,” a bit embarrassed by all the fanfare.
After all, just last year the plain-talking 65-year-old was chopping wood and shoveling snow in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, trying to enjoy the peace and quiet of retirement.
That lifestyle ended abruptly in May when he accepted an offer to take over operations at Amtrak, an honor some might say is akin to being named captain of the Titanic minutes after it hit the iceberg.
The passenger rail company has lost money every year since it was created in 1970, and this summer again threatened to sink into bankruptcy until an emergency $205 million allocation from Congress bailed it out. The ball is in the Congress’ court, but they’re out until January.
With Amtrak gasping for breath, many have said it’s high time to kill it once and for all, or at least scrap the long-distance routes that gobble the most money.
Gunn, a lifelong railroad man, has a history of resuscitating ailing transit lines, turning around systems in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C., and shaping up New York City’s subway line at a time when even the most brazen city slickers were scared to use it.
He has plans to save Amtrak, too, including cost sharing, which is on top of his list. He wants to persuade states to follow California’s lead and start chipping in money for local corridor service. In the past four years, California has spent $120 million on the Capitol Corridor service from Sacramento to the Bay Area alone, and its total investment in passenger rail – $700 million over the last four years – eclipses that of any other state.
“At one point, California was the most auto-centric state in the union,” Gunn said, “and now they’re one of the most transit-and heavy rail-oriented. That’s saying something.”
Amtrak employees say the energetic Canadian is like nothing they’ve seen before.
While other corporate CEOs arrive to meetings in stretch limousines and fly across country in the first-class section, Gunn rides the rails in blue jeans and brown boots and climbs into the engine to trade train stories with the engineers.
“The other guy before him – I never even knew what he looked like,” said train attendant J.C. Adams, who jokes with Gunn about pitching in and helping make up beds. “He never even got on the train.”
Gunn took the California Zephyr on a trip from Chicago to the Bay Area [the week of November 10], and took the Sunset Limited and Crescent routes back to his temporary home in Washington, D.C.
Sitting in the Zephyr’s near-empty dome car as junkyards and pastureland glide by, Gunn said the first step toward solving Amtrak’s problems is to kick the notion that passenger rail service ever will be self-sufficient.
In 1997, Congress gave Amtrak $5.2 billion in hopes of weaning it off federal subsidies once and for all. Amtrak hasn’t come close to meeting that goal, and never will, Gunn said.
Instead, he envisions a plan in which states put up 20 percent of capital costs for local projects and the federal government picks up the rest, similar to how transit projects, such as light rail, are funded today. In addition, he would have the states pay for any operating deficits on local routes while Washington, D.C., picks up the tab for cross-country losses.
“The federal government has to treat passenger rail service the same way it treats roads, transit, waterways and airlines,” Gunn said. “It has to provide capital for worthy projects where states are willing to put their money where their mouth is.”
Gene Skoropowski, a friend of Gunn’s for 30 years and managing director of the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority, said that plan would be a boon for local rail service, which has relied on state money for past capital improvements.
In January, he said, the Capitol Corridor will add another round trip between Oakland and Sacramento, bringing total round trips to 11 and exhausting the capacity on the corridor.
Skoropowski said he’d eventually like to have 16 round trips a day, providing hourly service between the two cities from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Capacity concerns are also the thorniest obstacle for a commuter rail line local leaders want to launch between Auburn and Dixon in 2005.
Gunn’s plan, Skoropowski said, would create funding for new tracks and other infrastructure costs needed to boost capacity. More tracks would help eliminate current bottlenecks on the route, he said, cutting the time between Sacramento and Oakland by 20 minutes and making it more competitive with an automobile trip.
“It would be a massive opportunity for us,” he said.
But Tom Lawler of the National Governors’ Assn. said other states that have been getting a free ride are not ready to embrace the plan just yet. He said his group will meet with Amtrak after Thanksgiving and come back with a response in February.
“We need to make sure the trains keep moving,” Lawler said, “but (the states) have some pretty significant budget issues of their own. We’re just in the beginning stages of all this.”
California officials say that if Gunn wants a model of success to wave before Congress and state assemblies, he need look no further than the Capitol Corridor.
The service had more than 1 million riders in the last fiscal year, a 133 percent increase over passenger figures from four years ago, and has steadily added trains as ridership has grown.
According to Amtrak figures, the service loses $7.11 per passenger. The average loss on Amtrak routes is $57.67 per passenger and the long distance routes are far worse. The Sunset Limited that Gunn will take back to the East Coast, for example, loses $347 per passenger.
Still, the Capitol Corridor isn’t perfect.
On a recent evening trip east to Sacramento, the train unexpectedly stopped between Emeryville and Berkeley and the lights went out.
“Is this normal?” a woman’s voice called out in the dark.
“Yes!” several voices responded in unison.
Pat Breeding used to be a regular rider, taking the train from his home in Roseville to work in Martinez. He said delays – mechanical problems or waiting for slow-moving freight trains to pass – have become so bad that he’s considering returning to highway travel.
“I’ve only ridden the train twice this week,” he said. “My boss only puts up with so much. I know a guy who rides to San Jose and he just quit riding completely.”
Gunn said he hears similar complaints throughout the system. On his own trip out West, his train was held up coming out of Indianapolis and again outside Salt Lake City.
The biggest problem, he said, is that Amtrak has to share a limited amount of track with long, cumbersome, slow-moving freight trains – and freight traffic has nearly doubled in the last decade, according to railroad figures.
The railroads should back his plan for state funding for capital projects, Gunn said, because those improvements would help unsnarl freight traffic as well.
“The freight railroads have a big stake in this, too,” he said. “Let’s face it, we’re not going to build separate rights of way across the country.”
Passing by San Pablo Bay, Gunn says the long-distance trips like this one give him an opportunity to tour the facilities he suddenly took charge of in May.
“I want to get a good sense of how things work – or don’t work,” he said with a smile.
He said some passengers offer him feedback, one man telling him the sleeper berths aren’t long enough for tall people; the long-distance lines are mostly full of train enthusiasts or people who are afraid to fly.
When they find out the amiable guy in the blue jeans and khaki shirt is the head of Amtrak, they tend to extend their hands and beg him to keep Congress from cutting their favorite routes.
As the Zephyr nestles into its final stop in Emeryville, a voice comes over the intercom reminding passengers to make sure they have all their belongings.
It sends a message to Gunn as well:
“We want to thank you for your support. You ride ‘em, cowboy!”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak CEO David Gunn got off the Sunset Limited during a station stop in New Orleans on November 18, and visited New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal where he spoke to railroad employees and reporters.
Despite calls in Washington to eliminate the three passenger trains that serve New Orleans, Amtrak’s top executive reiterated he will fight for a Congressional budget that preserves the City of New Orleans, the Crescent and the Sunset Limited, The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported.
“Getting rid of the long-distance trains won’t make Amtrak profitable,” Gunn said.
New Orleans is served by the Crescent, which travels daily to New York through Washington; the City of New Orleans, which makes daily trips to Chicago; and the Sunset Limited, which runs a three-day route between Los Angeles and Orlando.
Although eliminating long-distance trains would save Amtrak about $300 million a year, Gunn said, the company still would be in the red because of the huge administrative cost of shutting down the services.
“There are people who think (the long-distance trains) are the problem, but that’s not the problem,” he said. “We need to keep them because they really do provide a service – but that’s a political decision.”
The trains serving New Orleans also pass through dozens of towns with few long-distance transportation options, particularly for people with limited incomes, Gunn said.
“We have an obligation to provide transportation service to people in those small communities,” he added.
Gunn said Amtrak’s “conservative” budget request provides for bare-bones operations and defers some much-needed track maintenance until the next fiscal year. The financial plan also would pay off a $100 million loan from the USDOT that was extended to the company last summer to keep it afloat, and it would help avoid a repeat of this year’s financial crisis by leaving Amtrak with $75 million in the bank at the end of the year.
A massive management restructuring by Gunn has cut the number of Amtrak vice presidents from 84 to about 20, and the company’s books have been reorganized to more accurately reflect its fiscal condition. Gunn, the former head of the New York City Transit Authority who came out of retirement on his family farm in Nova Scotia in May to turn around the troubled company, discovered $200 million in previously unknown losses in September after he sorted through the company’s poorly maintained books.
Gunn’s recent stop in New Orleans was his first since taking over Amtrak. He spent the day roaming through Union Station and nearby Amtrak warehouses and maintenance yards, where he greeted employees and talked to them about their jobs.
Amtrak worker Earl White was surprised to bump into Gunn in a locomotive cab being repaired in a workshop behind the downtown train station. “I’ve never seen a president here, and I’ve been here for 20 years,” White said.
“I believe in management by walking around,” Gunn said later. “You have to understand the physical and human reality of these places. Given all of the uncertainty surrounding Amtrak, it’s incumbent on me to give employees access.”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak said last Friday (November 15) it was seeking a few final modifications to the first of seven rebuilt high-speed trains, dimming hopes that the first Turboliner would be running by Thanksgiving. The state of New York said it is waiting for Amtrak – and the state DOT is not very happy.
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel described the issues as “minor deficiencies,” declining to identify them. “There is nothing major wrong with the train.”
Stessel told D:F on November 21 the RTL-3s, in their railroad nomenclature, are not having mechanical problems. He indicated the train will be ready for service “in a matter of weeks.” He also said when the trains enter service, a notice most likely will come from Gov. George Pataki’s office. He inferred the problems were more political than anything else, but the trainset nevertheless is in the Super Steel Schenectady shop for further work.
A week ago, a spokeswoman for the NY DOT told the Albany Times Union the agency had accepted the first train as ready for service and was waiting for Amtrak to give the nod.
However, NYDOT does not run the trains, Amtrak does, and the passenger railroad was not satisfied, railroad officials said.
Final testing of the first trainset, which has included midnight runs between Rensselaer and New York City, began in August.
Seven old Amtrak trains manufactured in the mid-1970s are being rebuilt for high-speed service between Albany-Rensselaer and New York City by Super Steel Schenectady under a $74.4 million state contract. The state’s entire budget for the seven-train project is approximately $98.5 million, including future upgrades to the propulsion system, a stockpile of some replacement parts and consulting work. Another $140 million is to be spent on tracks, bridges and crossings to enable operation of the trains at full speed, 125 miles per hour.
Amtrak will sign off on final acceptance of the train as soon as the company is confident that no further modifications are needed from Super Steel Schenectady, Stessel said. Then there will be another brief delay while Amtrak trains the Turboliner staff.
The Turboliners are expected to shave about 20 minutes off the 142-mile trip between Rensselaer and Manhattan, but won’t be able to reach top speeds at first. Current track speeds are between 75 and 95 mph with some areas rated at 110 mph.
Meanwhile, the Albany Business Review reported Amtrak appeared to be backing out of the deal, state officials said.
In a November 18 letter to Amtrak Chairman John Robert Smith, State Transportation Commissioner Joseph H. Boardman complained that Amtrak is no longer interested in upholding its part of a deal which was supposed to return seven rebuilt Turbotrains in service.
“Amtrak’s actions call into question Amtrak’s commitment to deliver a quality passenger service to New Yorkers,” the letter said. “Amtrak is consumed with its survival, and is no longer focused on the nation’s intercity rail passenger needs.”
“It is failing to honor its past partnerships and commitments,” Boardman’s letter stated.
Clifford Black, Amtrak’s director of media relations, said only that Amtrak had received Boardman’s letter.
“We will respond to it in due time to the commissioner,” he said.
Under the New York-Amtrak agreement, the state and Amtrak were to spend $185 million in a five-year effort to speed up railroad passenger service in New York. Under the agreement New York was to pay to rebuild seven Turbotrains at SuperSteel while Amtrak would upgrade track and signals.
Amtrak is more than $14 million behind in its share of the work, and has fallen a year and a half behind schedule for installing a double-track between Rensselaer and Schenectady, Boardman said in his letter. Those tracks belong to CSX.
Putting in a second track between the Rensselaer Amtrak station and Schenectady is a critical piece of the effort to put high-speed trains into service in New York.
On top of that, Amtrak now appears to be saying that it is no longer satisfied with the Turboliner trainset the state accepted.
“New York state recently received two letters signed by Amtrak officials accepting the first new Turboliner trainset, one indicating conditional acceptance, another indicating final acceptance. The state then received a message explaining that the final acceptance was in error, with a draft letter describing a new process for accepting the Turboliner,” Boardman’s letter said.
Now, Boardman’s letter said, “it appears that this retraction may be retracted!”
“Although Amtrak has contributed no money to this project, its staff is talking about reconfiguring the trains along the Empire Corridor, implying that unless all operating losses are covered, the Turboliner trainsets may never be used,” the letter said.
Amtrak is also more than eight months behind the project schedule for the final signal design and has also failed to order the turbines and transmissions for the remaining trainsets under construction at SuperSteel, Boardman’s letter said.
The program is in its fifth and final year.
NYDOT has been negotiating in good faith with Amtrak, but the passenger rail operator hasn’t done it’s share and New York wants action, said DOT spokeswoman Melissa Carlson.
Amtrak has a list of 54 items it says need to be fixed before the Turboliner can be accepted. They include rusting screws, panel cracks, loose trim, misplaced toilet paper dispensers, peeling paint, and passenger doors that are rusting at the bottom.
The Turbotrains date from the mid-1970s. Under the state’s rebuilding plan, they are being stripped to their metal shells and then rebuilt with new interiors, new electronics and controls, and new propulsion systems. The discovery of asbestos and lead paint slowed the rebuilding.
The first train set essentially has been complete for more than a year and has undergone several months of testing, culminating with a midnight run between Albany, N.Y., and New York City earlier this month.
New York wants assurances from Amtrak that it intends to honor its previous commitments, Boardman’s letter said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak and Pennsylvania’s DOT clashed November 19 over whether it is safe for passenger trains to continue running underneath the dilapidated Fruitville Pike bridge in Lancaster, Penna., which was recently unexpectedly closed to traffic.
Railroad officials are pressing the state DOT for a written guarantee that the bridge will not collapse onto Amtrak’s rail lines or commuter cars, according to the Lancaster New Era.
They warned that any further bridge damage could force the company to “stop train traffic west of Lancaster.”
”It’s about lives, for us,” John J. Diamonte, an Amtrak engineer, told PennDOT engineers during an afternoon meeting on November 19. “We’re placed in a hell of a position.”
PennDOT is refusing to provide the safety promise.
In a separate development, PennDOT is now weighing whether to build a temporary bridge to carry traffic into and out of Lancaster City. The bridge would be open to two lanes of traffic by March, two months earlier than PennDOT’s other construction alternatives.
The bridge was closed to traffic on November 12 after inspectors discovered that cracks in a support pier underneath it had widened. The pier, which stands between Amtrak’s four tracks, holds up the Fruitville Pike bridge.
Railroad officials said they are worried that the pier could fail and send the bridge toppling onto one of their passenger trains. PennDOT said it will not provide a written guarantee that such a failure won’t happen.
”They want a letter from us guaranteeing the bridge is safe for rail traffic,” said Mike Sisson, a PennDOT construction manager. “It’s a little tough to guarantee something that’s unknown. I have no idea if it is or not.
”We told them, “You guys have your own structural engineers. If you feel it’s unsafe, then shut it down,”’ Sisson said.
The trains do not move under the bridge at high speeds because the station is nearby on McGovern Avenue. About 20 trains pass under the Fruitville Pike bridge daily, reaching an estimated 20 to 25 mph, but any vibration near the bridge could cause more damage to the already cracked support pier holding it up.
”One more failure and we could stop train traffic west of Lancaster,” said Gene Kredensor, an Amtrak official based in Philadelphia.
An Amtrak spokesman said, “We are concerned about this bridge, however, at this moment there is no immediate danger and the railroad continues to operate normally.
Amtrak engineers met with PennDOT engineers Wednesday to make sure the bridge is monitored and safe for our continued operation.
During the November 19 meeting, Kredensor and Diamonte repeatedly asked a PennDOT bridge engineer if the bridge could fall down at any moment. The engineer, Harivadan Parikh, would not make any promises.
”We can’t give them 100-percent guarantees,” said PennDOT spokesman Greg Penny. “I think if we were concerned about the bridge falling onto the railroad, we’d certainly be conveying that to the railroad.
”It sounds like they’re looking for a 100-percent guarantee. If they want to satisfy themselves, they can make their own independent assessment with their engineers,” Penny said.
”We feel that we’ve made the conditions much safer by taking the live loads off the bridge.”
Among the three options to reconstruct the bridge, most of the local officials appear to support the one that would put traffic back onto it by March.
The three options include tearing down the old bridge, abutments and piers then building an entirely new pier the full width of the bridge and opening two lanes by Memorial Day, May 26. The entire project would be completed in September 2003.
Another option is to tear down the old bridge, and rebuild it one-half at a time, opening the newly completed half to two lanes of traffic by Memorial Day. Work would continue on the remaining half. The entire bridge would be completed by September of 2003.
The third idea is to build a temporary bridge, which would be is service by March. The two downsides of this idea are that the entire bridge replacement project wouldn’t be completed until November 2004, and building a temporary span would add $500,000 to the $5.9 million project.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Florida probably will not meet a state Constitutional requirement that it start construction for its statewide high-speed rail system, officials said last week.
Construction of the proposed system’s first leg, between Tampa and Orlando, probably won’t begin until mid-2004 at the earliest, a Florida High Speed Rail Authority member said. Construction can’t start until the FRA approves the project, which isn’t expected until at least April 2004, officials said. That would be well beyond the November 2003 deadline contained in the constitutional amendment that voters passed in 2000 according to the Bradenton Herald of November 14.
“It’s a long shot” that the state will meet the deadline, authority member James A. “Skip” Fowler acknowledged during a media briefing at the Orange County Convention Center.
Authority members have known “almost since the start” that construction wouldn’t begin by the constitutional deadline, said Norman Mansour of Anna Maria, an authority member. Because of that, the authority last year determined that construction would officially begin upon the signing of a construction contract, he said.
“We believe that fulfills the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law,” said Mansour, who was not at the media briefing. “Our legal advisers have agreed with that all along.”
That interpretation could face legal and political challenges, opponents of the amendment said.
“I think there could be lawsuits as a result,” said Donald Crane, president of Floridians for Better Transportation, which opposed using the state constitution to mandate the rail system. “If the authority pushes too hard, there could be some legislators offering amendments to strike down high-speed rail.”
Opponents also question whether “backdating” the construction contract, as state officials are proposing to do, would satisfy the constitutional deadline. The state’s schedule calls for executing the contract in May 2004. The state will probably begin construction by mid-2004, one year later than required by the amendment, with the system open to passengers by 2008.
Plans call for first building the Tampa-Orlando leg for an estimated $1.5 billion, followed by an extension to St. Petersburg. Service between Tampa and Orlando would start in late 2008.
Fowler said he’s not sure if high-speed trains capable of going 120 mph should be running the short trip between Tampa and St. Petersburg.
“How far apart is Tampa and St. Petersburg? Six miles?” he said. “Why put in high-speed rail for six miles? Those are commuters, not high-speed rail riders.”
He also said high-speed rail service would require building a $400 million to $500 million bridge over Tampa Bay because the three existing highway bridges could not handle the added weight.
Mansour said the rail authority has not discussed that segment in-depth nor made any decisions, but plans to operate under the premise the amendment requires high-speed service between Tampa and St. Petersburg.
The state also plans an Orlando-to-Miami line, with construction starting in early 2006 and trains operating on it in late 2010. The estimated construction cost is $6 billion to $8 billion.
State officials hope the federal government foots at least half the bill, with whichever private firm chosen to run the trains contributing at least 10 percent.
“’Much like an airport, the state and federal governments would provide the basic infrastructure, and the operator would cover operations and maintenance,” Fowler said.
Meanwhile, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers (BLE) – which could have a major stake in the eventual outcome – reported on its web site that as a group of international consortia prepare bids to run the state’s high-speed rail project, a local feud over its route shows no sign of ending, the Orlando Sentinel reported.
Orange County officials want the system to run from Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center via the Bee Line Expressway, State Road 528. From there, it would shoot down Interstate 4 on its way to Tampa.
Walt Disney World officials want the line to run along State Road 417, the Central Florida GreeneWay, skipping the convention center. The convention center area, company officials say, would be better served by light rail linking it to the airport, Disney and downtown Orlando. County officials don’t dismiss light rail, but they are loath to give up a high-speed link to the airport. The line will eventually connect to Miami, and, many years from now, to Jacksonville and Tallahassee.
Orange County Chairman Rich Crotty says the Bee Line route to the convention center “makes the most sense” given that the center is a huge public facility located in the heart of the tourist district, an area he calls “Downtown Orange County.”
The vice-president of the Peabody hotel has been even more pointed. In an October 29 letter, Alan Villaverde said not serving the convention center with high-speed rail would be “unconscionable.”
Disney officials counter that building high-speed rail between the airport and International Drive would chew up right of way, which would make it difficult to build light rail, a more useful type for locals. High-speed rail, they say, should be kept to the GreeneWay.
The constitutional amendment requires officials to build a high-speed rail system serving Florida’s five largest urban areas.
The Naples Daily News pointed out it will be years before the high-speed rail reaches Naples and Fort Myers. Those two cities are not in the first two phases of the state’s high-speed rail plan.
“I think we’ve bitten off as much as we can chew now,” said Mansour in explaining why Naples, Fort Myers and cities like Jacksonville and Tallahassee are not in the first two phases of the state plan.
That first phase will also see the state construct a rail line from Tampa to St. Petersburg. That line would be completed in 2009 after construction begins in 2005.
The next phase would build the high-sped line from Orlando to Miami, and most likely will pass through Fort Pierce, West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale.
Construction would begin in 2006 and be done in 2010, but the costs of the second line are undetermined.
The state’s “vision map” anticipates all the cities eventually would be hooked up to high-speed rail. Naples and Fort Myers are on the map along with Sarasota, Bradenton, Ocala, Gainesville, Tallahassee, Pensacola, Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach and Cocoa Beach.
“The goal is to have high speed rail hook up all of Florida,” Mansour said.
This long-range map has the rail line heading south from Tampa to hook up Bradenton, Sarasota, Fort Myers and Naples. It will then go over Alligator Alley and hook up with Fort Lauderdale.
Nazih Haddad, staff director for the Florida High Speed Rail Commission, said the state will have a ridership study completed by the end of November that will determine what the need for high-speed rail is.
Early next year the authority will begin accepting bids from private companies that want to partner with the state to build the rail line.
“We are looking for a private partner that will design, build and run the high speed rail,” Mansour said. “We’re not saying what type of high speed rail we want. We’re letting companies come to us.”
The rail system would be run as a for-profit business.
“It would be foolish to assume the private sector will do this without the possibility of profit,” Mansour said.
The cost of building the high-speed rail is still uncertain but Mansour said any company contracted to build the rail system will have to come up with a fixed, set price on how much construction would cost.
The state estimates that it will cost about $1.3 billion to construct the rail system from Orlando to Tampa as a steel-wheel, steel-rail system, Haddad said.
Florida also will look for funding help from the federal government.
“Federal funding is essential,” Mansour said. “It is also totally unknown and undefined, but we do anticipate favorable funding programs.”
The state’s goal is to have the Legislature approve a contract with a private company to build the rail line between Tampa and Orlando by November 2003. State officials say having the contract signed is all that is needed to meet the constitutional amendment requirement that construction begin by the end of 2003.
The state legislature will make final funding decisions on building the rail.
“Our responsibility is to come up with the best available plan,” Mansour said. “The legislature will then determine where the funding will come from. This will all be dealt with in the 2003 legislative session.”
The state has allocated $12 million to the Florida High Speed Rail Commission since the constitutional amendment was passed. The money has gone toward setting up the rail commission and conducting ridership and feasibility studies.
Haddad said there is a need for rail service in the state.
“We have a population of over 16 million and that will soon be 20 million,” Haddad said. “There are also 60 to 70 million tourists that visit this state each year.”
The permanent and tourist populations make it difficult for the state roads because many Florida residents drive a car.
“We are a single transportation mode state when it comes to in-state transportation,” Haddad said. “About 99 percent of the population uses cars when it travels within the state.”
The rail system should ease congestion on overcrowded Florida roads.
“The highway capacity can’t increase as fast as Florida is growing,” Haddad said. “We need to give people an alternative means of travel.”
Haddad estimates that about 10 percent of the people who now travel the roads will use the rail system instead.
The fare to travel on high-speed rail will probably be between $25 and $30. But it will be up to the company contracted to run the rail system to set the price, Haddad said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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When Garland, Texas’ two light-rail stations open last Monday, riders had the opportunity to be first in a long line. Dallas Area Rapid Transit officials say that by the end of 2003, an average of 1,409 passengers will board trains at the Forest-Jupiter Station each weekday, and that 1,982 will do the same at downtown Garland.
Mayor Bob Day told dignitaries gathered for the ribbon-cutting that having freeways on the outskirts of Garland had created a transportation doughnut and that light rail’s blue line would fill the hole, according to The Dallas Morning News.
“I think you will see people riding trains into downtown Garland as well as riding them from Garland into Dallas,” Day said.
The first train was scheduled to arrive at the downtown Garland station at 5:03 a.m. and depart at 5:08 a.m.
The trains will run from 5 a.m. to midnight daily, departing every 10 minutes during weekday rush hours and every 15 to 20 minutes at midday, evenings and weekends. Travel time from downtown Garland to the West End station in downtown Dallas is 32 minutes.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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An upstart group of small local governments wants Harris County, Texas, to join its campaign to build a high-speed rail line that would run through College Station and Houston and shoot into East Texas, according to the Houston Chronicle of November 18.
Commissioners Court was to decide last week whether to join the Texas High-speed Rail and Transportation Corp., a group started last month by College Station officials who want to be a part of any rail network federal and state leaders cobble together.
The group, which will be chaired by County Judge Robert Eckels, is proposing high-speed rail routes for freight and passengers not included in Gov. Rick Perry’s $183 billion Trans Texas Corridor proposal or in any plans federal officials are considering.
“Local governments have to make sure they’re on the ground floor of this planning,” said College Station City Councilman John Happ, vice chairman of the group and chairman of that city’s transportation committee.
From Harris County’s perspective, Eckels said, spending $150,000 a year in dues to be a part of the group makes sense. He said it would help link Houston and the Dallas-Fort Worth area by high-speed rail and provide needed routes between Houston and the Brazos Valley.
The more rail plans the county can be a part of, Eckels said, the better.
The Trans Texas Corridor pushed by Perry and state officials could take as long as 50 years to become reality. It would include a 4,000-mile network of tollways, pipelines and high-speed rail using common right-of-way and linking urban and rural areas.
Eckels said that plan routes new lines around cities, not into them. Federal plans under consideration call for one route between the Dallas area, Austin and San Antonio and another from Houston to New Orleans, with no linkage between the two.
The plan pushed by the College Station group would add another piece to the puzzle, officials said, by making other cities part of the network. It could provide a link from Houston to the proposed federal lines connecting other major Texas cities.
It calls for a line from the Killeen-Temple area through the Brazos Valley and into Bryan and College Station. It would then go to Houston, Beaumont and Port Arthur.
College Station residents feel they were unfairly left out when freeways such as Interstate 45 were built years ago, Happ said, making participation in high-speed rail projects vital.
Happ said Harris County is the first large county the group has approached.
It will not work. I live in Austin,TX and I know that Texans love their cars. The trains will run empty.
They should build them, "The Texas way." That is... built with private investment money. Unlike NY, CAL and most other places, Texas is not too socialist yet. We do not even have a state income tax (yet).
Let's keep Texas free, build with private money.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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A ferry ride from the Raritan River out to the bay, under the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and up New York Harbor to Manhattan would be breathtaking on all but the most dismal days.
Certainly it’s more scenic and less stressful than traveling overland up New Jersey’s “Chemical Coast,” either bumper-to-bumper on the New Jersey Turnpike or standing on a New Jersey Transit train, states an AP dispatch of last week, but Perth Amboy officials, who believe ferry service is important to attracting development and ensuring the success of $1 billion in projects already under way, say the transit agency’s lack of cooperation has scuttled ferry plans.
The problem is a low railroad bridge that crosses the Raritan River just west of the bay. When the bridge is down, river traffic is blocked.
During a transit board meeting last week, Mayor Joseph Vas accused the agency of failing to return his calls or written communications for two years. Vas wants to develop a coordinated schedule of train crossings and bridge openings to allow both rail and ferry service during rush hour.
“Mr. Executive Director, I’m very disappointed that you haven’t reached out to me,” Vas said, addressing the agency’s top administrator, George Warrington. “Is it that you don’t want to see our ferry service? There can be no other explanation.”
Warrington denied his trains are competing with ferries, but Perth Amboy offers the region’s starkest example yet in which ferry and rail service have been pitted against one another since September 11, 2001.
Ferries have multiplied in the waters surrounding Manhattan in recent years, particularly since the terrorist attacks. The World Trade Center PATH station remains closed, and many commuters discovered water travel while the Holland and Lincoln tunnels were temporarily shut down.
New York Waterway, which controls 90 percent of New York Harbor’s ferry business, has seen daily ridership double to 67,000 since the attacks. Peak train ridership also increased for some of the same reasons.
Anthony Cappaze, chief executive of the ferry’s would-be operator, Lighthouse Fast Ferry Inc., said plans are for three trips from Perth Amboy to Pier 11 in Manhattan each morning, at 6, 6:45 and about 8 a.m. Newark-bound trains pass over the bridge moments before arriving in Perth Amboy, which has regularly scheduled morning peak stops at 5:16, 6:12, 6:35, 7:20, 7:38, 8:08, 8:49, 9:02 a.m.
Cappaze plans five or six return ferry trips for more flexible evening travel. Trains make four stops in Perth Amboy during the evening rush.
“We can adjust to their schedule,” Cappaze said.
Opening and closing the bridge takes at least 12 minutes, an eternity to people trying to make trains run on time.
“Generally, bridge openings at peak periods make railroad operators anxious,” Warrington said, but he pledged to discuss the issue.
The city wants the ferry slip at a former industrial site just south of the Victory, Driscoll and Route 9 bridges.
A new road provides indirect access to Routes 35 and 9, the Garden State Parkway and the New Jersey Turnpike, and would keep most ferry traffic away from residential neighborhoods.
Even so, Bill Wright, a member of the New Jersey Association of Rail Passengers, said a better site would be the old Tottenville Ferry Terminal on the Arthur Kill, with clear sailing out to the bay.
“It makes no sense to have a location that is going to delay thousands of people,” Wright said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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A Michigan train wreck that killed two men last year was caused by the fatigue of two crew members who were suffering from severe sleep apnea, the National Transportation Safety Board said in a report approved November 19.
Engineer Allen Yash and conductor Jesse Enriquez, who were operating a Canadian National freight train southbound toward Detroit, were diagnosed before the accident with obstructive sleep apnea by their private physicians. Neither had been successfully treated and their conditions were not listed in company medical reports, NTSB’s investigation found.
The two men fell asleep while traveling in a wooded area near Clarkston, Mich., just before 6:00 a.m. on November 15, 2001, and did not see a stop signal or the lights of an oncoming train, the report said. Their train was traveling at 13 miles per hour when it struck another Canadian National train going 30 mph northbound for Flint. The crash killed the 49-year-old engineer, Thomas Landris, and 58-year-old conductor, Gary Chase, of the oncoming train. Yash and Enriquez were hospitalized with serious injuries, according to The AP.
Obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, causes a person to periodically stop breathing while asleep. Dr. Mitch Garber, a physician on the NTSB’s investigation team, said people with the condition will feel extremely sleepy during the day and can drift off after a few minutes in a quiet or monotonous environment.
Sleep apnea also was blamed for a light rail crash at Baltimore-Washington International Airport on Aug. 15, 2000, injuring all 22 people aboard.
Garber estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the population has the severe form of OSA.
”It seems odd to have both members of a two-man crew with a similar condition,” said board member John Hammerschmidt.
Steve Jenner, another investigator, said Yash had been diagnosed with the condition about a year before the wreck. Despite his doctor’s warning that it could cause him to fall asleep on the job, he never followed the physician’s instructions to attend a sleep clinic.
Enriquez had been diagnosed several years earlier and was treated at a sleep clinic and given an air-pumping mask to wear at night, but he still suffered from sleeplessness and snoring, so Jenner said it may not have been set at the right pressure. The report also said Enriquez had an irregular and unpredictable work schedule that may have added to his fatigue.
The NTSB recommended that the FRA develop a standard medical form for railroad companies that would inquire whether operators suffered from sleep conditions. The board also recommended that the administration require that employees with incapacitating medical conditions tell their employer and stop working in safety-sensitive positions until they are successfully treated.
It also recommended that Canadian National require “fatigue awareness training” for its employees. The company offers its employees material on sleep problems, but does not require they read them or offer any classes on the topic.
Canadian National spokesman Jack Burke said the company will consider the recommendation. “I think their focus was appropriate that this was human error,” he said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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An advertisement in this month’s Railway Age makes it official – Amtrak is getting out of the freight express business. The passenger railroad is selling all its boxcars. It is also willing to lease them.
Here’s what they are offering:
In the boxcar category, there are 50 Greenbrier 50-footers, 194 Greenbrier-Trenton Works 60-footers, and 100 Trinity 60-footers.
The passenger railroad is also giving up 71 Wabash National 53-foot Plate Trailers (Roadrailers), 12 Wabash National Roadrailer Couplermates, and 33 Wabash National Roadrailer intermediate “bogies” (trucks).
“In addition,” the ad states, “the following equipment may also become available for sale and/or lease: 111 Ebenezer refrigerated boxcars.”
B. A. Hastings, who is the railroad’s material disposal manager, is handling the sales activity. Buyers or leasers can call him at (215) 349-1192 or e-mail him at hastinb@amtrak.com.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Every day, 460,000 Chicago area motorists waste a total of 11,000 hours sitting at railroad intersections watching trains go by.
The absolute worst intersection in the six-county region is where the CSX tracks cross 127th Street in south suburban Blue Island. There, 4,615 vehicles are halted each day by the crossing gates that descend for a total of 41/2 hours a day, reports the Chicago Sun-Times of November 17.
The delays are almost as bad at a couple of dozen other rail intersections on Chicago’s South Side, in the south suburbs, and in the west and northwest suburbs of LaGrange, Riverside and Des Plaines.
At the rail crossing in Blue Island, the wait is often so long that when golfers heading home from a nearby club hear the rumble of a slow-moving freight, they turn right around and play another nine holes.
“Their wives don’t argue,” said Blue Island Mayor Don Peloquin. “They know how bad it is.”
The Chicago area’s 30 worst train crossings, as measured by how long and how often motorists get stuck at gates, are ranked in a new study by the Illinois Commerce Commission. The study was requested by Illinois’ congressional delegation to help them decide where to spend federal money on railroad infrastructure. Having figured out which of the metro area’s 1,763 rail-street intersections cause the most delays, however, transportation experts remain at a loss how to fix things. Every conceivable solution, such as running the tracks over a viaduct, is expensive and likely to displace homes and businesses.
Many Chicago neighborhoods and suburbs owe their existence, ironically, to the railroads that now strangle them. More than 150 factories, shops and bedroom commuter suburbs grew up along the tracks that rolled out of Chicago like the spokes of a wheel.
The trains have grown longer over the decades and, especially in crowded urban areas, slowed to a crawl.
In Blue Island, trains often stretch more than 1-1/2 miles and creep slowly uphill out of a nearby freight yard, said Mayor Peloquin, a lifelong resident whose father worked for the railroad. Equally long trains rolling into the freight yard often grind to a halt as their cars are shuffled and sorted.
Half-hour waits for a train to move are not uncommon and, as a result, life in Blue Island can take on a frustrating rhythm.
“It seems like even when you’re walking the dog you’ve got to wait for the train,” said Blue Island resident Pauline Bialek. “You have to arrange your whole day around these trains. You really can’t be in a hurry around here.”
As in Blue Island, many of the worst rail crossings are near rail yards. The Belt Railway crossings east of Midway Airport, for example, feed into a yard in nearby Bedford Park.
“It’s very frustrating when these trains stop traffic out there during rush hour,” said Ald. Michael Zalewski of the Southwest Side’s 23rd Ward, where many of the Belt Railway crossings are located.
With 16 rail crossings in the ward, Zalewski said, the problem will never go away “until we get a grade separation at a couple of major intersections.”
Area
Address Motorist delay
(hours) Vehicles
delayed Gate down time
(minutes)
1. Blue Island 127th 278 4,615 269
2. Dixmoor Western Ave 222 3,68 571
3. Chicago 130th St.
west of Torrence 191 3,962 273
4. Riverdale Indiana Ave 184 3,053 571
5. Chicago Ridge Ridgeland Ave 173 5,042 300
It takes a train just a couple of days to go from California to Chicago, but it can take two more days to move the cargo on that train through Chicago and on its way.
Trains slow to a crawl in the metro area, rail yards back up, and freight cars must sometimes be unloaded from one train, hauled by truck across town and reloaded onto a second train.
To alleviate some of the problem, U.S. Rep. William O. Lipinski wants to establish a federal rail trust fund to funnel money to states for underpasses and viaducts at road crossings and other rail improvements.
“The railroad situation here really is a major problem, not only for the railroads, but for the city, state and people who live around the railroads, and something has to be done about it,” Lipinski told transportation experts recently at a meeting sponsored by the Real Estate Investment Assn.
Lipinski said he’d like to see the funds included in next year’s federal transportation bill, but the railroads, wary that they’ll be hit with higher taxes to foot the bill, are unhappy with the idea.
“We are opposed to the concept of the rail trust fund as it’s been presented so far,” said Paul Nowicki, vice president of governmental and public policy at Burlington Northern Santa Fe.
Lipinski insists that it’s in the railroads’ best interest to get on board – they’re the ones who lose money when rail traffic bogs down.
“A railroad infrastructure trust fund would resolve those kind of problems, not only in Chicago but in other parts of the country,” he said.
Lipinski won’t say where the money would come from, but one source being considered is a 4.3 cents-a-gallon diesel tax that the railroads already pay. The railroads would prefer to see the tax repealed.
Another option, more agreeable to the railroads, would be to tap some of the $20 billion in customs duties collected on imported goods. Proponents point out that much of the cargo delivered to America’s ports winds up on trains.
If Lipinski’s measure passes, it could provide $2 billion a year of rail infrastructure funding.
Meanwhile, the Chicago Metropolitan Planning Council, with input from local railroads, earlier this year called for public and private support for a package of improvements, including installing grade separations at the 40 worst crossings, upgrading 55 miles of highways used by trucks to transfer containers from one rail yard to another, and establishing joint-use corridors to connect yards and allow transcontinental trains to pass straight through the Chicago area.
In the meantime, Chicago can continue to boast that it is the rail hub of the United States, with a third of the nation’s freight running through the city, creating 117,000 jobs and a $3.2 billion payroll, according to the council.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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There were angry scenes at Paris’s Gare du Nord (North Station) as thousands of cross-Channel passengers were blockaded last Monday, November 18, by union pickets on strike for a pay rise.
London-bound Eurostar trains were stuck for several hours at the station after striking French catering staff blocked platforms and stopped passengers from checking in, according to CNN.
While no trains were officially cancelled, departures were on hold as police cleared platforms and negotiations got under way between union representatives and Eurostar chiefs in an attempt to “take the steam out of the situation,” a company spokesman said.
The ranks of frustrated passengers swelled as three successive trains, the first at 6:37 a.m. failed to depart.
A spokesman for Eurostar said one train finally left Paris at 12:30 p.m. local time.
The strike was called the previous Friday by the French CFTC union at Momentum Services, the company which serves hot and cold meals and snacks on the Channel Tunnel trains, over a claim that its British employees are paid more than French ones.
The CFTC said it was also concerned about security surrounding the 31 mile (50 km) tunnel, despite improved measures since last year’s September 11 attacks.
Passengers now go through airport-style checks and have their baggage scanned before boarding.
Trains were running normally from London’s Waterloo Station to Paris, and the London to Brussels service was unaffected, a Eurostar spokesman said. However, there was no catering on trains from Paris rostered with a French crew or where catering would have been provided from London by a French staff making a return trip, the spokesman said.
The union said they wanted security stepped up at Waterloo in London and Gare du Nord in Paris, and cited a number of alleged security lapses, including stowaways in baggage compartments and stolen Eurostar uniforms and badges.
The Eurostar spokesman claimed the issue of security had only been raised by the catering staff to highlight their case.
“They have added it for good measure,” he said.
“Security is determined by the British and French governments and we at Eurostar have higher security than has been asked for.”
On the pay issue, Eurostar pointed out the cost of living was generally higher in London than in Paris or Brussels.
Eurostar, which marked its eighth anniversary on Thursday, runs up to 26 trains a day between Paris, Brussels and London, with rush hour trains running as frequently as every 45 minutes.
Eurostar awarded its catering contract in 2000 to Momentum, a joint venture between British catering giant Compass and Italian food firm Cremonini, whose staff welcome passengers on board, serve full meals to first-class passengers and run a bar for second-class travelers.
Most of Momentum’s staff are based in Britain and are not participating in the strike.
Eurostar is run by the state railways of France and Belgium and a British consortium including British Airways and bus
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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The accord that ended the 1950-53 Korean War has become the center of a dispute over a key reconciliation project between South and North Korea: the re-linking of two cross-border railways.
The conflict is the latest in the troubled history of the armistice agreement, according to The AP, which was signed after two years of acrimonious talks between the U.S.-led U.N. Command and its battlefield foes, North Korea and China.
The 18-page document did not officially end the Korean War, and the Demilitarized Zone, or DMZ, that it created to keep the enemy armies apart, is an explicit reminder of the potential for confrontation. The border area is heavily mined and fenced, and sealed off from most Koreans.
The latest dispute developed two weeks ago week when the two Koreas prepared to send military officers onto each other’s side of the DMZ to inspect demining work. The demining is a prelude to the laying of railway track inside the 2.5-mile-wide buffer zone; but the North Koreans refused a request from the U.N. Command to submit the names of their inspectors and the times they would cross into the southern side. They asserted that the U.N. Command had no jurisdiction in the matter.
However, Article I.8 of the July 27, 1953 armistice agreement states that no one in the DMZ “shall be permitted to enter the territory under the military control of either side unless specifically authorized to do so by the Commander into whose territory entry is sought.”
Construction work continues in the DMZ, and it’s unclear whether the procedural dispute will balloon into a major obstacle to a showcase project of South Korean President Kim Dae-jung’s engagement policy toward North Korea.
“There is no change in the status of the dispute,” a South Korean Defense Ministry official said Saturday. He identified himself only as Major Kim.
A bigger threat to the railway project could lie in tension over North Korea’s recently revealed nuclear weapons program. The United States and its allies recently suspended oil deliveries to North Korea to punish it for the nuclear program.
In earlier meetings, U.S. officials who head the U.N. Command had granted the two Koreas “administrative” authority in the railway corridors in the DMZ. But they declined a North Korean request for “jurisdictional” authority, which would have meant armistice terms no longer applied in the corridors.
“We fully want the North side to comply with the armistice agreement as they agreed to in November 2000 and then again this fall,” said Maj. Gen. James Soligan, deputy chief of staff of the U.N. Command.
On November 16, the North’s official news agency, KCNA, accused the American-led U.N. Command of trying to disrupt the railway project as part of its campaign to muster international pressure on the communist state over its nuclear weapons program.
“The Korean nation will never tolerate the U.S. dog-in-a-manger act of putting a brake on the Korean nation’s undertaking of reconnecting its blood ties,” it said.
South Korea is not a member of the U.N. Command but supports its position. It has tried in vain to convince the North Koreans to abide by the request.
The U.N. Command comprises 16 nations that fought on the South Korean side in the Korean War, but many Koreans view it essentially as an American entity.
If you're going to post a bunch of news stories that are all on the same webpage, just make one post that includes all of the stories.
Just a suggestion.
People complain about how Destination Freedom is too long and how most of the topics don't interest them. This way they get to pick and choose. It also makes the discussion threads easier to navigate.
Greetings, all...
Just thought I'd give a quick rundown of when I spent yesterday in NYC. With a nice long holiday weekend, it was only natural that I spend a day in the city.
I drove up the NJ Turnpike to Jersey City, where I parked in a garage next to the Pavonia/Newport PATH station and took PATH the rest of the way into Manhattan. Arriving at 33rd Street, I walked down Seventh Avenue to around 14th Street to look around in some furniture stores in that area. I then walked east until I found myself at Union Square, where I browsed around the farmer's market and some of the holiday-themed booths that are set up near the subway entrance.
Feeling a few raindrops on my head, I decided to head into the subway, and took the (R) train up to 5th Avenue/59th Street and check out the holiday shopping crowds. I walked around a bit up there, poking my head into St. Thomas Church and St. Patrick's Cathedral before crossing the street and checking out the ice skating rink and Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center. Down in the concourse level of the RCA Building, I was very pleased to find one of those cool Pret A Manger shops that I saw all over London. Here's hoping that more of those open up in the US.
From Rockefeller Center, I boarded a (D) train of R-68's up to Columbus Circle, where I transferred to a northbound (1) train of R-62's. I got off at 110th Street and grabbed a burger at The West End before heading over to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine for Evening Prayer. St. John the Divine, of course, was as magnificent as always, and it was hard for me to pull myself away from there. But I couldn't stick around forever, and being in a somewhat ponderous and brooding mood at the moment, decided to take a walk down Broadway.
How far down Broadway from 111th Street? Well, at first I decided to try to make it down to my old high school friend's neighborhood around 86th Street, which would make a nice healthy walk. Once there, I decided to continue on to Columbus Circle. Once at Columbus Circle, I figured Times Square wasn't too far away, so what the hell...
About two hours later, I finally found myself down at Canal Street with two very sore feet. That's right, a non-stop walk down Broadway from 111th to Canal Street. I parted Broadway and walked east on Canal over into Chinatown, and walked around some of the narrow side steets of Chinatown for a while. What a cool neighborhood at night, with all the shops facing the sidewalk and all the neon and colors... It was like something straight out of the movie Blade Runner. The coolest thing about New York City, I've found, is that no matter how many times I go there, on each visit I always come across something new and interesting.
By this point, as you can imagine, my feet are killing me, and I decided I wouldn't mind riding around on the subway for a while before I head back home. I realized that I had still never seen the infamous Chambers Street station on the BMT, so I naturally headed down in that direction.
Finally, in front of City Hall and nearly at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, I ducked into the subway station and ended one incredibly long walk: From the Cathedral of St. John the Divine to City Hall, with only one stop at a Starbucks in SoHo to use the restroom and grab a latte. This was probably at least as long as the walk I took on my first-ever visit to NYC, from the High Street station in Brooklyn across the Brooklyn Bridge, to the World Trade Center, and then up the East Side of Manhattan to around 86th Street and across Central Park to my friend's place on Amsterdam Avenue. Damn, there have certainly been a ton of changes since there: The WTC is gone, my friend now lives back in Florida, and I've been through about a million changes in my own life.
Once inside the Chambers Street station, all I can say is: Wow. I was very impressed to find that it was all it's been cracked up to be here on SubTalk. If Detroit had a real subway, I'm sure it would look something like Chambers. After a short wait, I grabbed a (J) train of R-40M's headed toward Jamaica. This was my first time on this area of the NYC subway, so I decided to do some exploring, nevermind the fact that it was now pushing 10:00 PM.
We went through the Canal Street station, which I see is now the topic of discussion on another thread, and also the Essex Street Station. It was only this evening, after looking around on this site, that I found out what it was I saw off to the right-hand side of the train as we passed through: the old trolley terminal.
We then headed across the Williamsburg Bridge, which made the first time I had been across the Willy-B. It seems to have a very interesting configuration, with each of the two roadways divided down the middle by the bridge structure.
Once on the Brooklyn Side, we passed some cool old loft buildings as we slowly made our way down the line. At Myrtle Avenue, I saw a train of R-143's for the first time ever, waiting on the other track as an (M) shuttle. I decided to take the (J) to Broadway Junction, where I would take the (L) back into Manhattan and transfer to PATH at 14th Street.
Out at Broadway Junction, I went upstairs to wait for the inbound (L) train, and was very pleased when a train of R-143's pulled in. My impressions: This must have been a very new trainset, as it still had that "new car smell". The interior didn't seem as harsh as that on the R-142's, and the sounds reminded me a lot of the M4's on Philly's Market-Frankfort Line. The only real negative was that stupid Mr. Ed voice that announces when the doors are closing. Somehere around Lorimer Street, I was cursed at by a drunken wino.
I got off at 6th Avenue and transferred to the PATH train, and drove home from Pavonia/Newport without incident.
This was hopefully the last major trip in my infamous 1986 Trans Am, as I'm currently shopping for a new car and hope to have one sometime this coming week. I'll let everybody know what I end up with.
That's all for now...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I thought the same thing when I visited Chambers St, I was greeted by a pile of garbage and vomit at the foot of the stairs to one of the platforms. But looking through the disrepair and shit (hard to do), did you find that Chambers St is actually a nice station? Some major cleaning work, and it could be very grand.
Rob, when you get back to Atlanta send my regards to Saxby and Sonny. Tell them and your fellow Georgians they did real good work last month.
I'm already in the Land of ATL. I was recalling the last time I was in NYC, which was last year. As for S&S, no comment :-)
Aw Rob, I can tell you're not as happy as I am.
St. John the Divine, of course, was as magnificent as always, and it was hard for me to pull myself away from there.
On your next trip, let me encourage you to visit St. Barts on Park Ave. @ 50th Street. Though somewhat smaller than St. John the Divine, it is magnificent in its own right. Although the exterior is pretty basic Romanesque, the interior is full of architectural marvels. I'm also a big fan of the Rector there, who gives most thoughtful sermons, especially in these times.
Keystone Pete
>>>I was very pleased to find one of those cool Pret A Manger shops that I saw all over London.<<<
They are opening them at a rapid pace, they just opened one near where I work. I think they are great.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, Dave...you had a FULL DAY in NYC!
[Somehere around Lorimer Street, I was cursed at by a drunken wino.]
Could've been a SubTalker on a binge...LOL!
>>How far down Broadway from 111th Street? Well, at first I decided to try to make it down to my old high school friend's neighborhood around 86th Street, which would make a nice healthy walk. Once there, I decided to continue on to Columbus Circle. Once at Columbus Circle, I figured Times Square wasn't too far away, so what the hell...<<
Addictive, isnt it? I once walked from 63rd/ Lex to Canal/ Bowery. You dont realize exactly how long it is while you'r doing it
But watch out!
Last May, I went for a substantial hike with a friend at Bear Mountain, and then strolled around Brooklyn Heights and downtown Brooklyn, finally crossing the Brooklyn Bridge. The next morning we walked from Wall Street to the Battery and then meandered up to 14th and 8th, and that night I walked another mile and change.
I was feeling fine then, but that's when my long-term recurring knee pain began.
I quite often walk from around Canal Street up to about 57th Street and back down. It doesn't seem that long when you are doing it. It's a nice walk when the weather is nice (i.e. I wouldn't want to do it on a day like today). You can enjoy the city much better on foot. But I too sometimes get a pain in my leg the next day if I overdo it. I never had that problem years ago.....just past the 30 mark not so long ago.....I guess it doesn't get better from this age, all downhill....
Here we have an image of an R32 train signed for Coney Island
with the DOORS OPEN on BOTH sides of the car... and clearly
idle in the MIDDLE track of a station....So.... why is
there a passenger aboard this train?
It's probably the TO. looks like maybe 39th av. on the astoria el - they used to lay trains up there and before returning to service on a good weatehr day, pop open all the doors to air the train out...
That worked for me when I worked with ceiling fanned cars.
IIRC, the caption read "Beebe Avenue"
Looks like a T/O to me getting air from outside after taking a layover or something. Remember, the R32's were built w/o A/C and wasn't equipped with it until the GOH.
Also notice, the glass that covers the front route destination sign has been broken.
Oh, I now just realized that, looks like someone punched it or something.
The T/O cut a juicy one in the cab, all the passengers went into the next car for relief, and now he's sitting out waiting for the car to air out so he can proceed to the next stop.
My new wife (6 months as of last week) and I returned earlier this evening, from visiting her mom in Pittsburgh. We normally fly, as we usually just come in for a weekend. However, she is increasingly afraid of flying, and I had always wanted to take an extended Amtrak trip. We also wanted to avoid the extensive drive between the city and the airport, particularly on Thanksgiving weekend.
We took Amtrak's Three Rivers #41 on Wednesday. The ride was flawless. It left NYC on time, left Philadelphia ten minutes late, but then arrived in Pittsburgh 15 minutes early. Everyone was polite, and we enjoyed the garden burger, pizza, and red wine from the cafe. I was able to take a peak when they changed engines in Philly, and the legroom in our coach seats was plentiful. The bathrooms were functional and clean.
Today however, the 8:00 train #40 arrived promptly at 9:30, and did not depart until 10:00. We had gotten up at 5:00 to make sure we made it, and were too exhausted to even bother to ask what happened. (Besides, given that they do not receive their fair share of subsidies, I tend to feel sorry for Amtrak regardless. However, I did have to hold my tongue when they came around for tickets. I was tempted to say, "Sorry, I only have tickets for the -8:00- train!") I think they made up about half an hour by the time we got to Penn, but was too tired to notice. What I did notice however was that only half the bathrooms were operational, and the other half stunk to hell. (I know, I know, it's the customers who use them, but, yecccch!)
Sorry, no pictures - I was too preoccupied with my laptop, on which I was typing an unrelated school paper, during the ride. Also, my wife couldn't care less about rolling stock. We had a square coach car going there, which appeared to have been recently renovated, and were in one of those roundish coach cars coming back. (I have an unexplainable preference for the rounder ones, anyway. - I know the subway car R classifications, but never learned the Amtrak ones.)
Though those two hours were quite aggravating, taking the train was a good decision. I was also glad to have done it, given the uncertain future of Amtrak in general, and of that line in particular.
Separately, we ate last night at the Grand Concourse, which apparently used to be Pittsburgh’s central rail station. They restored everything – it was absolutely beautiful. We sat in what used to be the main waiting room, in original wooden seats, which now have tables next to them. Quite an amazing job.
If anyone knows this off-hand, I am curious as to what those roundish Amtrak coach cars are called, and whether they are older or newer than the squarer ones that they sometimes share trains with. I noticed today that at least the windows were made by GE.
Thanks – if anyone has any more specific questions about the train or restaurant trips, I will do my best to answer them.
"Square" cars are from Amtrak's Heritage Fleet...basically, older equipment, some of which was inherited from the railroads that made up Amtrak. "Round" cars are newer rolling stock.
Round cars are the Amfleet (by Budd - based on the Metroliner shell). The four doors large windows are the Amfleet II, the two door smaller windows are the Amfleet I.
Dinning cars are usually part of the hertiage fleet.
GE developed the Lexan plastic window, which are also used in the NYC subway.
I'm surprised you didn't ask about the newer sleeping cars.
Round cars are the Amfleet (by Budd - based on the Metroliner shell). The four doors large windows are the Amfleet II, the two door smaller windows are the Amfleet I.
This is the first time I've ever found someone that knows an exterior difference between these two cars! Thanks so much!
--Brian
but he hashed the data, see my other post
Thanks - I wasn't particularly interested in the newer sleeper cars - not anymore, anyway. Before making reservations, I checked out the standard sleeper, and it would have more than tripled the cost.
Thanks to everyone, concerning the Amfleet I/II clarification. I did not know there were two categories amongst that class pf rolling stock.
a word about Amtrak sleeping car services.
Sometimes the pricing is such that you would do better to ride coach until a stop around bed time. Example lv Jesup GA northbound @ 5"30 PM NB, change to sleeper @ Florence NC 1054 PM. save thirty bucks. (miss a 'free' dinner clearly less than $30 value.
two doors large windows Amfleet II
Four doors small windows Amfleet I
cafe cars were produced in both series.
Am II's were designed for longer distance services with leg rests etc
Thanks for correcting my post. It's hard to type in the morning before the coffee kicks in.
I looked at photos just now and can't see a size difference in the windows. What dimension is bigger? Length? Width? Height?
--Brian
my reccollection--you really should chase down scale drawings in either Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman--is that Am II's had taller and wider windows. The Am I's were directly dimensioned from the Metroliner bodies, with all three featuring all electric on board amenities. I's have small windows in the vestibule doors like Metroliners, II's have vertical sliding windows large enough o reach out to pick up 'orders', make lantern signals, etc.
Thanks - I remember thinking to myself, "Hmmm...I don't remember having this much legroom on previous trips (to New England, upstate, & DC)." Now I know why.
Saturday morning I woke up to find the L train was running south of Bway Jct and there was no shuttle bus. Later on I find we have a normal schedule on the "beast". I later find that there was no major GOs throughout the system. I think only the Q and W trains in Bklyn had GOs.
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
One more thing about the L line is that from about 9:30pm Saturday night and all day Sunday there were only R143's running the line. Before 9:30pm Saturday there was only 4 R42's out at this time.
Just thought I would though in this fact.
Robert
Looks like variety on the L is soon coming to an end. I still miss the few slants there. It's funny, for a while now, whenever I ride the L (not that often anymore), I had been hoping for an R143. My hope has kind of shifted recently to getting an R42. They are still common enough that you get them often, but the day is soon approaching that we would only hope an R42 would pull into the station.
The Lex had a GO. with Uptown #6 trains running Express from 14 St to Grand Central.
During the day? It's listed online as a late night diversion.
The service advisories weren't even updated last week.
Yes, during the day. I was rather surprised to hear about it on the PA since there wasn't a single sign on the whole 6 line. They did do a good job with the announcements though. It seemed they were doing work on the local track at Grand Central.
I think there were no major GO's because it has been the Thnaksgiving weekend.
>>Saturday morning I woke up to find the L train was running south of Bway Jct and there was no shuttle bus.<<
I was lucky too. The weather was nice and sunny except for a few clouds here and there. I parked at the Muni lot in Rockaway Pkwy. I rode the (L) to Atlantic Ave and back. I surveyed the progress for the reconfiguration project. I noticed the new signal for the northbound track that was't there last time I visited. There were some contractors working and nobody questioned me for taking photos.
Rode back to Rockaway Pkwy. and drove to Glenmore Ave and photographed the soon to be abandoned Snediker Ave "el" with R-143's on it. Drove back to Snediker where the "el" curves off the Van Sinderin "el" and took another shot of 143's making the curve. Then I ran out of film ! Day over.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was there last Monday and Tuesday with my camcorder doing the same thing.
You probably weren't questioned because when I was there, I *was* questioned by a manager of one of the scrap metal recyclers in the area, telling me that some of his workers were "getting nervous" seeing someone with a video recorder in the area. I assured him I had no interest in scrap metal (unless it was a subway car being scrapped :), told him I was videotaping the section of El there because it was coming down soon, and that I appreciated and understood why he came out to talk to me. I then told him that there would be other people coming to do the same thing I was.
--Mark
" I think only the Q and W trains in Bklyn had GOs."
The W in Astoria had a GO on Sunday only. It really surprised a friend of mine in Astoria because there were no posters up on Saturday.
The Q was supposed to be running express to Manhattan but it had normal service Sat/Sun in both directions.
The Q line G.O. in Brooklyn was cancelled.
This morning I boarded an MBTA (Boston) Red Line 1700-series train to find new stickers on all the doors. They're on each door's window pane near the top, both inside and outside. "THESE DOORS DO NOT RECYCLE"
The non-railfan may wonder which meaning is correct:
1. (active verb sense) While the trains are layed-up at night, the doors don't take the opportunity to look around the car for scrap metal and paper than can be separated from the other trash.
2. (passive verb sense) After the car's 35-year life (or the individual door panel's, whichever comes first), the glass, rubber, and metal from which the door is fabricated cannot be reused for any purpose whatsoever.
Obviously the true railfan knows what the sticker is meant to mean. But on the short trip from Park Street to Kendall/MIT, while stationed at Charles/MGH, the doors opened; then started to close but reopened rapidly then closed shut. So the true railfan must be wrong.
>>> They're on each door's window pane near the top, both inside and outside. "THESE DOORS DO NOT RECYCLE" <<<
Notify the Green party. They will start a letter writing campaign. It is definitely a poor example that the MBTA is setting. Next thing you know they will no longer separate glass, metal and plastic. :-)
Tom
Are the 111 middle putins on Mondays only because of the weekend GOs or is it a daily thing now?
It is done on a daily basit becouse there are to many R143's in ENY wanting to be burn tested for service. ENY shoud be getting back to normel once more R40-42's are shiped to CIY. I sometime might have to make a lay up to 111st Middle #2 (The one away from the station with me J job on Monday night. I have been working on crossing the track on the ENY leadm since I know it's been awile since I had to do it. But since they have been doing it I have not had Leyup there.
Robert
and maybe the rehab at met with 3 tracks always out.
I was told that at one point 111 was so disused you could hit the trip as long as the signal was for you and it would be no problem the stop arm would get stuck all the time.
Well my biggest problem with 111st middle was walking on the old wooden boards that were up there. In the past mouth they now put down the fiberglass walkways. I am a big guy at 300lb so you can see why the old boards scared me to death.
Robert
I guess that you have to walk alongside the third rail on one side of the center track, and between two third rails on the other side of the center track. Perhaps the main line third rails are on the outside of the track now. I am really leery of the third rail.
I often wondered how those guys used to make up and break down trains of gate cars at 111th St before 1950. They had to be down on the track level because of the Van Dorn couplers and the cables and hoses to connect. Back in those days there were no outside walkways on the outside tracks, and both main line third rails were toward the center track.
The half rotted away ties are still there.
Don't you just flag the next guy down for a pickup?
Ties with bog gaps in between some of them. The scariest thing about that area to me was the fact that there is a hill to the north, and trains come flying over it.
I swear that middle track's ties are original 1917 vintage. It's in a sorry state.
In as sorry shape as the original rotting woodend crossovers over the "express" track at Wyckoff on the M.
Express train pulls into 34th Street (Broadway) uptown and sits behind the homeball.
The T/O gets frustrated and gets on the radio to City Hall Master Tower.
Q Train: "Cityhall come into train on A4 waiting for the lineup at 34t St".
City Hall: "Train at 34th St, we can't make you out what are your call letters".
Q: "Believe it or not this is the 7:20 Brighton (its 8:10), but you know I punched for the line up"
CH: "Yah we know 7:20, just couldn't make out what type of train you were, your cosmetically challenged"
Q: "(Laughing) Ohh there is a camera at 34th Street?? This is an R40M or Modified that's why, (red/red goes green/green) thank you".
CH: "Have a good day (laughing)"
See not just railfans get confused at the car types...
Cute.
I guess the person in the tower didn't expect to see an R-40M running on the "Q" line.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't know why not. They've been running there on and off for the last month.
Maybe there was a new person there.
#3 West End Jeff
What difference does that make? Why should the TW/O route trains based on how they look? How does he tell an R-68(A) Q from an R-68(A) W? It's not like R-40M's have never been seen at DeKalb before -- the M stops at DeKalb, too.
If a person works there long enough and starts to go by the appearance of the train rather than by reading the sign, he'll think that an R-40M for example will always run on a certain line, rather than paying attention to the sign displayed on the train, or perhaps double checking to be absolutely sure. You've got to remember that some people are stupid.
#3 West End Jeff
We were originally talking about 34/B'way on the express track northbound. Normally this track sees three trains - Q Circle, Q Diamond, and W - with mostly 3 types of cars - R68, R68A, R40. There are two buttons on the Route Request Box - Express and Local. there is a camera pointed at the front end of the train. Between the T/O punching Express and the camera showing a Q, there is NO GOOD EXCUSE for not supplying the line-up immediately.
What happens when the occasional R40 W wanders by? Should the TW/O send it Express because that's the way the R40s usually go?
And what about when an R-68 or R-68A wanders by? It could be a Q (express) or a W (local).
The tower was just confirming the punch, CYA to the max at the TA. Making sure the T/O punched correctly and that the TW/O gives the right lineup in case the T/O punched incorrectly.
Maybe they didn't see the diamond Q on the screen or the T/O was slightly off the mark.
This is at 34th Street under the control of City Hall Tower, not DeKalb which is controlled by DeKalb Tower.
As long as the TW/O blindly obeys the punches, it would take a double error on the part of the T/O to take a wrong lineup (punch the wrong button and then accept the lineup). It happens at times, of course, but aren't there enough safeguards without the TW/O trying to add on an unreliable verification system?
I don't know what they are told to do in the tower. The camera was installed for some reason and it seems (via the conversation on the radio) they are using it to verify the punch of the T/O.
No they shouldn't send it the way the r-40s normally go. They should look at the sign and send it where the "W"s normally go.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>>You've got to remember that some people are stupid. <<<
UHH, GEE, really. 8=/
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There are some stupid people in the world and I've come across some of them. The stupidest people on the subway are the ones who literally go subway surfing. They're the ones that wind up six feet under almost every time.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>The stupidest people on the subway are the ones who literally go subway surfing<<
...and that has WHAT to do with this thread?
Peace,
ANDEE
I just thought that I would make a pun on it. I'll admit that it is sick humor.
#3 West End Jeff
For the record: My "handle" has nothing to do with riding on the top of trains. It has to do with the fact that I love the "SUBWAY" and "SURF" the internet.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm aware of that. I probably made a bad, and also a sick pun since I have a sick sense of humor anyway at times.
#3 West End Jeff
Or the person came over from A division.
Yeah don't know their alphabet. Only 1 ~ 9, give them two numbers
and they go DAH!!!
;-) Sparky
But at least their tracks go 1, 2, 3, 4, not this silly 1, 3, 4, 2 stuff in the B.
That definition is what has been established policy of the railway
in particular.
At the Shoreline Trolley Museum, our layup and relay tracks are
all south of the mailine. Therefore, when track numbers are
assigned to carhouses, they read from right to left, when
facing the building westbound. When facing eastbound, the
track numbers read left to right. We enter particular buildings
from both directions, so when facing west you have a reversal.
Also our signals are numbered ODD eastbound and EVEN westbound.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most multi track railways
numbered ODD eastbound and EVEN westbound or visa~versa?
;-) Sparky
Nice. That R40M is a real fighter.
Funny -- I rode that very interval. It was indeed a train of R-40Ms (north motor 4475, for those who didn't believe me :-)). DeKalb Tower held us outside of DeKalb Avenue, and I couldn't figure out why and it seemed the Train Operator couldn't either -- didn't seem to be anything right in front of us. Maybe we were a "stealth" train.
David
Lou, I guess that's what happens when ya get stuck with Eastern Division equipment on the Southern Division...:)
Who were the manufacturer's of these three classes of cars for Metro North.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
GE, GE and Kaowisaki (or however your spell it).
M-4's (the 8900 series) was built by Tokyu
M-6's (the 9000 series) was built by Morrison-Knudsen (sp?)
Thank You!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Any time
Wait, I thought Kawasaki built the M-6s,a s someone said in another post...
Also, I didn't know the M-2s and M-4s were GE and not Budd...interesting..
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Third Avenue El
GE was the main contractor; Budd was the subcontractor for the carbodies.
David
So was the Arrow's for the NJT/SEPTA.
Maybe they are a division of Kawasaki-I don't know. Signs on the cab doors on the 8900 series say Toyku. That's all I can say.
Tokyu Car and Kawasaki are two different companies.
David
Bzzzzt!!! wrong!
But thanks for playing.
The M-2s were built by GE (70's)
The M-4 were built by Tokyu (80's)
The M-6's were built by M-K (1996)
Of the three classes, the 2 is the lightest (110,000 lbs?), the 4 is a bit heavier, the 6 is a little heavier (130,000 lbs?). IMHO, the 2 rides the best, though, followed by the 6, then the 4. The 2 is in 2 car pairs, the 4 and 6's normally 3 car groups, though they supposedly could be coupled into longer trains.
All three use pretty much the same POS GE propulsion system that's unreliable as hell, bulky, inefficient, and way way way more complex then it should have been. Just a block diagram is enough to make your head spin.
Correction:
M-2 was built in 1971-73 by Budd.
M-4 was built in 1988-89 by Budd/MK.
M-6 was built in 1992 by Kinki-Sharyo/Tokyu Car.
Ha, you did worse than me! At least I knew that the M2's were done by GE in 1972 with 630 hp per car. I read the FRA blue card in the cab :)
Just talking points, as spin free as possible.
PRO: The model board at Euclid Avenue shows 76th Street station. (Probably the best piece of positive evidence.)
PRO: Prominent rail historian Dave Rogoff drew a map of the 76th Street station track layout. Other maps show leads to the station.
PRO: The 1941 Hagstrom Map shows the line under construction to 76th Street and beyond.
CON: Hagstrom was big on including UC items, both rail and highway. The 1948 Brooklyn map (year 76 was alleged to have been completed) does NOT show it.
PRO: A usually reliable source has been told by others that they visited the station.
CON: Second- or third-hand information. The original sources cannot be questioned.
PRO: Track leads run to a bulkhead that certainly ran to 76th Street.
CON: There is no door or evidence of a door in that bulkhead. This is atypical, to say the least. Underground infrastructure must have access for maintenance or in case of emergency, such as a water main break.
CON: There is no street evidence of a subway. No manholes, no room for station entrances, no gratings. Even the ancient (sealed 1850s) Cobble Hill tunnel retain manhole access.
CON: No credible explanation has been offered to indicate why a completed station would be sealed "secretly."
CON: Kramer's Building the Independent System has no mention of 76th Street.
CON: Cunningham & DeHart have no mention of 76th Street.
CON: The Board of Transportation multi-annual report for the 3-1/2 years ended June 30, 1949 (time-span of the alleged completion) prominently mention the completed extension to Euclid Avenue and Pitkin Yard. No mention of 76th Street.
CON: The above report also lists project T-10, the extension to Grant Avenue and the BMT Fulton L, and indicates that this is to be the eastward extension of the Fulton subway. This is during the period that 76th Street was supposed to have been built, and shows that the intent was to use the elevated line at least six years before the connection was built and completed.
CON: The 1953 First Annual Report of the New York City Transit Authority also talks of the Liberty Avenue project, and no mention of 76th Street.
PRO: Believing that 76th Street, Bigfoot and Atlantis exist is a lot more fun than thinking they don't.
CON: The only known picture of a train in 76th Street has a Roswell Alien at the train controls and Elvis as the Conductor.
I'd have to say that the cons well outweigh the pros!
Good Points, and at this point your last few lines kind of sums 76th Street up....ALiens, Roswell, Bermuda Triangle, 76th Street, Bigfoot, all could be made into a Discovery Channel Special.
Well, apparently without 76th Street, there wouldn't be too much to talk about here, because there are literally hundreds of posts out at SubTalk on the subject. Well for those interested, I did a simple search using 76 and found all these threads that have to do with 76th Street. Apparently, it first surfaced in January 1999, dosed off for a while, a brief resurrection in July 2001, and kind of revived in it's current force this spring, with the pinnacle probably being during the hiatus here, where Harry's TOSOTT board had about 7 or 8 threads going on about the subject during that time (not included in this list below). Of course that was started around April 1st when Joe Brennan put his joke page on his site.
Well here it is, and I'm sure the list is much longer, 76th Street is buried in many other threads also, where it comes up under different thread titles. I'm sure this list is just a sampling:
76th Street Station on the A Line
SUBTALK TRIP TO 76th STREET STATION
SECRET STATION: 76th & Pitkin A Line
76th Street IND Station
Tracks after Euclid Ave
76 St. Station – IND
76 St. Station - IND DOES EXIST.....I HAVE PROOF
76th Street Station: I Totally Fell For It
76 St. Station – IND
What's 76 st.?
76 Street again!
76st rears its ugly head
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
At 76th Street?
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
At 76th Street?
Good One! :)
No, this is a case for Art Bell!
I know right :o), sheesh we could sure use some controversy with Rivera right now.
>>"Good Points, and at this point your last few lines kind of sums 76th Street up....ALiens, Roswell, Bermuda Triangle, 76th Street, Bigfoot, all could be made into a Discovery Channel Special."<<
I think it would reach more viewers on FOX since it is a broadcast network & almost everyone has it but would work on Discovery[maybe they could air repeats of the special]. It would be another installment of a World's Wildest show called myth or fact[FOX] or "Investigating Legends:Fact or fiction"[Discovery]. Ratings would probably be high since I know a majority of Subtalkers would watch it if it became a real special, especially the "honorable mention" of 76 St in there ;-). Hey GP, you should send that idea to FOX seeing they love to air stuff like this, they just might find airtime :o) & if Geraldo hosted it, it would be a sure ratings winner!
Getting back on topic, wow this subject has been going on for THREE years with no resolution, the way its going, this looks like at least another year in the making unless this topic dies out or some type of evidence[like a station shell] is proven.
"CON: There is no door or evidence of a door in that bulkhead. This is atypical, to say the least. Underground infrastructure must have access for maintenance or in case of emergency, such as a water main break. "
the recently (perhaps a year or 2 ago) sealed 9th av el 'polo ground shuttle' tunnel in the bronx by yankee stadium contains no doors on either end to allow access to inspect it. Unless there is a manhole I'm not aware of, there is no access for maintenance or in case of an emergency.
the recently (perhaps a year or 2 ago) sealed 9th av el 'polo ground shuttle' tunnel in the bronx by yankee stadium contains no doors on either end to allow access to inspect it. Unless there is a manhole I'm not aware of, there is no access for maintenance or in case of an emergency.
Correct me if I am wrong (Yeah... fat chance), but...
The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally.
Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it.
Still... I dare say that there may be some access to it somewhere, even if both ends are solidly capped. (ie a personel access port~ formerly called a MANHOLE).
Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel.
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of.
Elias
Refilling a dug hole with concrete would not, IMHO, be such a good idea. First you are pouring an enormous amount of processed material litterally down the drain, and you may as well spend that money on enron stock. Second, concrete isn't rock, and if the tunnel was bored out of solid rock, then the concrete plug and the rock might have different expansion rates. If you are dealing with such a massive amount of concrete, surrounded by an equally massive rock hill, then possible fissures and stuff could appear if there was, say, a very warm fall, followed by a brutally cold winter, and then a very early, warm spring. Such things could be very bad news for the building foundations above it. Also, if the concrete is less dense than the surrounding rock (what was it, granite? or some sort of sandstone?), then the concrete plug will slowly "float" to the surface, like rocks buried in a garden. The more-dense rock will force the less-dense concrete plug up out of the ground over the course of a few centuries, again, causing large damage to the foundations of the surrounding buildings.
A much better solution would be to just drive extra supports between the tunnel roof and the track bed, where the trains would have run, and then sealed either end. And you're right, some sort of person-hole would be needed to allow access should a portion of the tunnel fail somehow, or something else happen like that.
"The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally. "
Better hope for seepage, since both ends are concrete sealed shut. Maybe if there is a manhole (more on that below) we can drop some fish in there and have the world's biggest fish tank.
"Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it. "
Would it not then be the city's responsibility to ensure that it does not cave in one day? Yes, it's highly unlikely, but...
"Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel. "
I've never bothered to look, though I do recall reading a bit from people who walked through it, none of whom mentioned any manhole access, or any emergency exits.
Offhand, there's no other tunnel in that area that I know of that comes close to it. Even if it did, the likelihood of an interconnection is severely limited. Is 60th st. connected to park av tunnel? how about 53rd? (63rd lower level will eventually go under park av MNCR deep bore, though I don't think they're planning to connect them other than in GCT) the L line to the ENY freight tunnel? the Grand st. shuttle to the Bowery JMZ? B/D to the croton aquaduct?
There's a lot of tunnels in this town that pass next to over and under other tunnels, but rarely do they connect.
How many deep bored tunnels have you seen with manholes? I've been through several, and the most I've seen have been air shafts for diesel exhaust, which did not contain ladders or any other provisions for emergency access.
"if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes. "
Perhaps from the west end, with a bit of skillful driving and a ramp onto the trackway, or a skillful operator who can manuver the arm of the backhoe in a limited clearance area. Though I'd like to see you drive a backhoe up to the east end.
The plugs on either end look pretty solid and would offer the FDNY quite a workout and test the durability of their handtools. I've seen them take out cinderblock walls in 1-3 minutes, but the plugs on either end look a lot thicker than just cinderblock.
In a case of emergency, 30 minutes not good. I'd venture a guess that it would take a bit more than that to get in if there is no manhole.
"Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of. "
Perhaps, though I rather doubt they'd spend a ton of cash on such a project though.
I hope you're assumption that there is a manhole is correct, though given the above i doubt it highly.
To tie back to the original subject. if 76th was built and abandoned, mabe it was given back to the city, and given the above, the city might not give a hoot about it. The abandoned LIRR Atlantic Av tunnel was left unseen for ages until Bob Diamond came along.
The abandoned LIRR Atlantic Av tunnel was left unseen for ages until Bob Diamond came along.
But it was not unknown, and there was access.
Atlantic Avenue (Cobble Hill) Tunnel
I highly doubt it was accessible, either that or kevin's got his story wrong and bob didn't have to do any digging from the manhole to the rest of the tunnel (which is a short dug out area filled with dirt):
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/tunnel/tunnel.html
The authories, so far as I know, got in via a hole they dug from a neighborning building basement, with the hole still present in the brickwork of the tunnel ceiling. At least that's how the legand goes.
As for th ERA guys in the 50's, use your own logic here: where are they? did they take photos of it? how did they get in? when did they go in? this isn't too different than the guy that claimed to be in the part of the tunnel that is still inaccessible, who swore that there's a steam engine in there... if so - where is the "proff"?
I don't know if 76th is there. if it is, it is, if not, who cares. All I'm saying is it that if it is there, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a tunnel was sealed up and largely forgotten.
As for th ERA guys in the 50's, use your own logic here: where are they? did they take photos of it? how did they get in? when did they go in? this isn't too different than the guy that claimed to be in the part of the tunnel that is still inaccessible, who swore that there's a steam engine in there... if so - where is the "proff"?
I knew all three gentlemen mentioned, George Horn, Martin Schachne and Dave Rogoff, personally. Martin Schachne described the visit to me personally. Marty was something of an expert on abandoned tunnels. He showed me some of the visible Second System structures and also described the Grand Central loop, also visited and photographed by Rogoff. He never mentioned 76th Street either.
These three were among the most prominent electric railfans of their time. Ask anyone on this board (like LarryRedbirdR33) who is old enough and they'll tell you the same.
Rogoff's article was originally published contemporaneously to the event--i.e., about 25 years before Bob Diamond.
And the point is--even if you doubt the veracity of the "visit" the fact of the rportage proves that the fact of the tunnel was known decades before Bob rediscovered it and therefore it was NEVER "lost."
As to the steam engine--almost certainly not. I believe that assertion is based on circumstantial evidence as the tunnel was used
for horse-drawn transportation for a short while after steam quit. I don't believe anyone has claimed to have actually seen this engine.
And you don't bolster a current argument by attacking the veracity of other's experience if you don't know the issue better than they.
No one said it was 'lost'. just that it wasn't accessible for awhile...
I'm sure they were/are good folks that got to see lots of stuff most people did not if what you say is to be believed, but I haven't seen the article, photos, etc - so this information is second hand to me, and just as the witness accounts of 76th are second or thirdhand with no article or photos provided, there's little reason for me to believe it.
I haven't seen the article, photos, etc - so this information is second hand to me, and just as the witness accounts of 76th are second or thirdhand with no article or photos provided, there's little reason for me to believe it.
But it is not second-hand to me, and I've identified and vouched for the souurces, so you are engaging in solipsism.
hardly an engagement in solipsism. It's more of simple scientific method. If you can't direct me to some sorta article/photos/something that would prove they went, do you really expect me to believe what is second hand info (to me) via the internet? (on subtalk no less? :o) heh heh!).
I'll have to try to do some of my own homework on your sources though, anyone doing that sort of exploration back then must have been an interesting person to know... lord knows I'm just a bit into looking around and documenting such spaces myself... did they do much writing or publishing of their 'work'?
It's nothing personal, i just like to see lots of sources. in this case that just doesn't seem possible at the moment, so it's best dropped least we want to drive each other nuts over it...
Dave Rogoff was one of the best researchers ever, he was the Sprague Librarian at the ERA until his very untimely death in 1969 (IIRC). He helped other researchers (including me) and published quite a bit in the NY Division Bulletin.
Martin Schachne was very knowledgeable and had a great collection. He was a TA employee and had access to a great deal of inside information. He provided a lot of research and other help to me and others (he went along to help photograph and take notes when we wrote the SIRT book) but AFAIK he wrote very little himself.
George Horn was a sort of super railfan. An NYC motorman (trolley, then subway, I believe), he retired in his 40s, then went to SF to become a cable gripman, found it a little too taxing and beacme a trolley motorman (again). He both researched and wrote. I think articles partly or completely by him are in old copies of ERA Headlights and Electric Railroads.
Very good company indeed. I don't know if we have such a trio today. At least not acting "in concert." :)
"No one said it was 'lost'. just that it wasn't accessible for awhile..."
Instead of accessable, the word should be forgotten.
YOU can say it was 'forgotten'. I'll stick with inaccessable. thanks.
the Centre st tunnel DOES have a outside the station mini staircase or latter[ at the Bowery station]where the Grand st shuttle passes overhead....[dont ask me how I found this out....it was years ago and a friend of mine went snoopin' where he shouldn't have]
When I toured the Polo Grounds tunnel there was a short stairway which apparently led into the building above at the east end. There was a sealed steel door at the top. Presumably this could be used to access the tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That doorway (it's in the ground on the platform, right?) is still there, padlocked. At the end of the platform, going westward, the tunnel is plugged by concrete.
On the sedgewick av. platform there's a hole in the south side wall, but it doesn't go anywhere.
That doorway (it's in the ground on the platform, right?) is still there, padlocked. At the end of the platform, going westward, the tunnel is plugged by concrete.
That door may have been part of what used to be an entrance from the Anderson Avenue side of the Jerome/Anderson station. When I co-led a tour of the area in late 1999, that space was occupied by a laundromat.
On the sedgewick av. platform there's a hole in the south side wall, but it doesn't go anywhere
It used to lead to an entrance on Sedgwick Avenue. In fact, if you walk in that area of Sedgwick Avenue, you can see where the staircase led to the street.
--Mark
No, it's on the platform inside the tunnel at the Jerome/Anderson end... there was a concrete block structure of some sort with a wooden staircase that had been partially burned inside... at the top of the staircase (only about 12 steps or so) there was a steel door that appeared to lead into the building above. It appeared to be fully sealed from the other side, possibly plated over (no light visible around the edges), but it was definitely a door.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally.
That tunnel ws bored through a natural rock ridge in that part of the Bronx.
Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it.
Supposedly, it is "owned" by the landlords of the buildings above it.
Still... I dare say that there may be some access to it somewhere, even if both ends are solidly capped. (ie a personel access port~ formerly called a MANHOLE).
Having been through the tunnel, I doubt this very much. There were no rooftop access hatches of any kind. The only item we did see was a hand-stenciled sign in the Manhattan-bound tube indicating the location of Woodycrest Avenue.
Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel.
There are only 2 tunnels, side by side.
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
It would have been interesting to see how this process was accomplished, since the east end is above you, while the west end is below you.
Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of.
As you already said, not likely. It was simply plugged on both ends.
--Mark
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
It would have been interesting to see how this process was accomplished, since the east end is above you, while the west end is below you.
They hoisted the equipment into the tunnel and sealed it from the inside. The equipment and workers are still inside the tunnel, along with the steam locomotive that's supposed to be in the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel.
Prove I'm wrong. ;-)
Isn't there also supposed to be a buried LIRR engine somewhere on Long Island, too. West Hempstead seems to ring a bell.
Allegedly a few Brooklyn Forney engines were buried as part of
the landfill around Coney Island yard.
Paul: You've made some excellent points, but consider this. If we didn't have the 76 Street Station Mystery what would we be talking about? Do you remember the long series of post expressing angst over the closing of the men's room in the Stillwell Avenue Terminal?
Meanwhile what about the Hillside Avenue Station on the Hillside Avenue Extension. We have a track map for that one too.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, speaking of Stillwell, no one seems so much interested in the "lost" lower level controls of that station, and I've been challenged as to whether they even existed, despite the fact that I was there in person.
Ditto I've been challenged on the original layout of switches on the J Line west of Marcy, though I rode those many times too.
Also see my most recent reply to The Joe in this thread, re: Marty, Dave Rogoff and George Horn. Back me up, Fellah! :o)
Excuse me? I expressed great interest in the lower level.
As for the men's room, it's really closed now, along with that entire section of the station. That also means that the station is temporarily not ADA-compliant, since the elevator is in the closed mezzanine. (Time to update the map again!)
Excuse me? I expressed great interest in the lower level.
Nothing personal, David. It seemed for a while though (several years back, maybe) people treated me like one of those guys with "The World is Coming to an End" signs when I mentioned the lower level.
Station design is one of the topics that interests me most, especially when it comes to sections of stations that are closed now.
Speaking of which, do you know anything about a former south mezzanine and/or crossunder at Fulton/Nassau?
Speaking of which, do you know anything about a former south mezzanine and/or crossunder at Fulton/Nassau?
Nope. Sorry.
There was an underpass that connected the 2 BMT platforms at Fulton St. It was located north of the current connection to the IND lower mezzazine. It was a deserted area and it was a dangerious location.
Thanks -- that's the one I'm looking for. Do you know when it closed? Did it also have a street exit? Is there any remaining evidence?
It was closed when TA started rebuilding the station. I can't think of the name of the street. I think it was the first block north of Fulton St. I don't have my map with me. If you can break thru the tiling, you might be able to find it. But I don't think there is any evidence of it left in the street. Then again I haven't been over there in a while.
That would be Vessey Street, and I don't recall an exit to Vessey from the BMT platform at Fulton St. I do remember one at John St. SOUTH of Fulton.
There is an exit at the south end of the station which is still open part time. But we're talking about an underpass that was toward the north end of the station. And there was a part time booth there that was at Vessey as you said. The site has been tiled over. Maybe there is something upstairs on the street level still there.
That's my thing also. I love the trains, but the station infastructure can keep me fascinated for hours. Actually that's how I originally found NYCSubway.org back around 1998. I don't know which I found first, but I was doing a search about "abandoned stations" in a search engine, and found Joe Brennan's site, which linked to this one (or it could have been the other way around), but either way, I've been in heaven ever since.
Ditto I've been challenged on the original layout of switches on the J Line west of Marcy, though I rode those many times too.
Also see my most recent reply to The Joe in this thread, re: Marty, Dave Rogoff and George Horn
Paul: You were already an established expert in rapid transit when I was just starting to come into the field. I well remember Marty Schachne and George Horn. Most of the posters may not know this but Marty and George (both TA employees) obtained the necessary permits to vist virtually all the abandoned and unused tunnels and stations of the transit system. They visted the South 4 Avenue Line Station that crosses over the Crosstown Line and even downed hip-waders to explore the water filled tunnels of the 40 Street turnouts from the 4 Avenue Line. Unfortunately this was done in the late fiftes BS (Before sub-talk) and there never was any written record of what they saw save the verbal recollections passed on to you and me and a few others. As I said before Dave Rogoff was the foremost subway historian of his time especially in matters of subway construction. I never heard any of these men state that the 76 Street Station was built. Also these where railfans who grew up with the IND. By the time we got into it the IND was already thirty years old.
I appreciate what you say about the track layout west of Marcy Avenue. I went through a similar experience concerning the closure of the Fulton Ferry Terminal at Sands Street.
BTW where exactly where those lower level turnstiles at Stillwell? I remember a long row of turnstiles extending outward from the men's room and then there was some kind of a barrier. After that there was a second row of turnstiles which where at a somewhat lower level and more or less directly lead to Platforms C and D. This second row was removed several years ago I think.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The lower level bank of turnstiles was accessed on the Surf Avenue side to the west of the current (I should say "recent") bank of turnstiles to the upper, or "normal" level.
They were also accessed by a corridor from Stillwell under the stairway from the West End platform, if memory serves.
The lower level bank of turnstiles was accessed on the Surf Avenue side to the west of the current (I should say "recent") bank of turnstiles to the upper, or "normal" level.
They were also accessed by a corridor from Stillwell under the stairway from the West End platform, if memory serves.
Paul: Now I seem to remember them. I used to vist Stillwell Avenue Terminal back in the sixties. Sometimes several of us junior railfans would help the conductors change the rollsigns on incoming equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul: Now I seem to remember them. I used to vist Stillwell Avenue Terminal back in the sixties. Sometimes several of us junior railfans would help the conductors change the rollsigns on incoming equiptment.
With your brain making mental notes as each destination went past. ;-)
With your brain making mental notes as each destination went past. ;-)
This is true. At one time or anyother I had committed the entire rollsign reading to memory.
Larry, RedbirdR33
OK, can you still recall those BMT standard and Triplex curtain listings?:)
BMT DESTINATION SIGN LISTING
Ninth Ave.
City Hall
62nd St. B’klyn.
Bay Parkway
Coney Island
Times Square
Kings Highway
57th Street Manh’t’n.
Brighton Beach
Nassau St.
Franklin-Nassau
Franklin Av.
Prospect Park
95th Street Ft. H-ton
Queens Plaza
Whitehall St.
Broad St.
Metropolitan Av.
111th St.
Crescent St.
Jamaica
Canal St.
Chambers St.
Bowery
Canarsie
Atlantic Av.
Eastern P’kway.
8th Ave. Manh’t’n.
Myrtle Av.
6th Av. Manh’t’n.
Astoria
36th St. - 4th Ave.
Ditmas Ave.
Forest Hills - Queens
I take it that the "small" Standard roll sign, AND they appear to be in order, with Astoria->Forest Hills being the BofT-TA era additions.
Most of those make sense, but BOWERY? What in the world did they need that for?
I believe some trains terminated at Bowery in the early years of the Centre St. loop line.
How about the route signs? I have a large-format curtain, so I can check it. All of the Southern Division routes were lumped together, as were the Eastern Division routes.
Didn't they move those switches from west of Marcy to east of Marcy back around 1960?
Didn't they move those switches from west of Marcy to east of Marcy back around 1960?
Sounds just about right. IIRC, Myrtle-Chambers expresses made Marcy initially but Jamaica Expresses whistled by after the change, but later everything made Marcy.
It was a lot more fun riding the Jamaica Express before Marcy became a express stop.
No matter what anyone says, the R-16's handled that service very well in their early years.
That must have been before their get-up-and-go got up and left.:)
I think I must have felt about the R-16's the way that you felt about the R-10's.
Could be. Understand I never disliked the R-16s. Since I rode on them only twice, I couldn't really formulate an opinion one way or another.
The R-10s, of course, are another story. I rode on them every Saturday for three years and took in a CPW dash on them whenever I could. It was pure excitement. Whoever decided to assign them to the A should knighted, if not canonized.:)
I only knew the R16s on the 15-Jamaica. I don't recall any great negative feeling about them except that, because of them, I rarely rode a Srandard on that line.
I only knew the R16s on the 15-Jamaica.
I should say "mostly knew" as I rode them at one time or another on all the pre-Chrystie Eastern Division lines (except lower Myrt, or course).
Also con:
NYCT always needs as much storage space for trains as it can get. Why not use 76th St if it exists?
This is only the 2nd complete board I have seen in the few years I have been buying on ebay.
The bidding started at $300.00 and after the 2nd bid is up to $501.00 with 4 days to go. Too bad the price is more than I want to spend.
This is the highest I have seen bid on ebay for a NYC Route sign board. I think the bidding will go over $600.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4124&item=742343680&rd=1
Linked
That looks just like my IND sign box, and it has IND routes and destinations. Only the lower destination sign will have light fixtures. The holes in the top are where the light bulbs protrude down to illuminate the upper sign, and their fixtures were above the sign box and mounted to the car side itself.
Gee, and I paid something like $60.00 for my sign box back in 1980 when Shoreline had a few of them for sale.
I could have bought one back in the 1980's at Branford for $45 and I passed on it.
Who knew??
My sign box had Eastern Division roller curtains when I bought it. Luckily Shoreline also had IND curtains available, complete with mechanisms, so I picked up two of them along with an IND side route curtain w/o mechanism. I remember driving down to the sign shop via Farm River Rd. to load my car. Eddie S. noticed my bumper sticker promoting the sixth Lithuanian dance festival held in Chicago earlier that summer and shook his head (he's Lithuanian, too). Someone asked what I was doing loading that sign box, and Eddie replied, "He's building a subway car at home." I wish...
Wonder if it came out of #1208, judging by its olive green paint job.
wayne
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did. My sign box still has that mint green tint I remember seeing on R-1s and R-4s in the late 60s. No, it's not that awful pistachio green.
>>Wonder if it came out of #1208, judging by its olive green paint job<<
You could always e-mail the seller to find out.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021202/168/2shjm.html&e=8
--Brian
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021201/170/2sgih.html&e=6
--Brian
last one, I promise :)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021201/170/2sgiw.html
--Brian
Okay, I can sort of understand the no-tranvestite policy, but what about (male-to-female) transsexuals? Especially ones who are partway through the transition, or those in a Hedwig and the Angry Inch situation.
A truly convincing transvestite would not be perceived as such, just as a bald man with a truly convincing hairpiece would not be perceived as wearing a rug.
They have this in parts of India too.
I think the word is frotage? Of course the French would have a word for it.
Gee, now the Phillipines have the guys playing stinkfinger....a couple years ago it was Seoul, Korea.
And India? Who would want to?? Ewwww.
When I was in my teens and a quite frequent user of the Brighton line (UK version!), the locals on that line used the 4-LAV units - four-car trains of which only one car had a corridor (the one with the bathroom which gave the units their code!). The other three cars had separate compartments each seating ten people, five a side, with no way in or out of them except when the train was stopped at a station. For perhaps understandable reasons, some of these were marked "Ladies only".
And others marked "Smoking Car", meaning no women or children :-D
A touchie situation, very touch and go if you ask me!
avid
Does each T/O have an assigned run by the week? Does each T/O have to spend time on reserve if someone doesn't show? Is the number of times you have to make a trip pretty much set? Hey. . .I'm curious.
no no yes
He's the one who started the whole controversy with his "joke" page.
Has anyone asked him whether this station really exists?
He believes it doesn't exist. When one of the controversies about 76th Street came up, I correspondend with him.
What I got from the correspondence was that he didn't feel it was worth his effort to go out there himself. He presented a reasoned set of arguments why he didn't believe it existed, which form in good part my own belief that it doesn't exist.
What were his arguments?
Essentially:
That there are really no truly "secret" tunnels--examples, Atlantic Avenue, Beach Pneumatic were both known to be in existence at the time of their "discovery."
That disused tunnels must be maintained (so have access)--example, the Second Ave subway sections.
And that, connected to the above, there is no visible indication from any direction that access to a 76th St. station exists or ever did exist.
In a different email (after his 76th St. "April Fool" page) he provides some Devil's Advocate arguments for people who would try to refute his "hoax." If he wouldn't want to repeat them himself, I won't do it, but it is another example of how it's easier to fool people than to debunk a story, once it gets rolling.
In fairness, he has never (AFAIK) absolutely, categorically stated "it doesn't exist," but this seems to be because, being a good researcher, he would want to run down some leads (such as looking at city records).
It is so hard to prove a negative, which is why so many bogus stories have life.
Yup, I highly believe that the station doesn't exist myself but as I said in a previous post, if there is physical evidence showig AT LEAST a shell of the station, I'll eat my words but for now the 'myth' of 76 St continues...........
You know, this isn't like looking for Iraqi weapon sites, or trying to discover what if there really are alien space craft at Area 51. If this station had really been built, it would have been a substantial project carried out by the New York City government. It is just not plausible that there wouldn't be all kinds of documentation about it - as well as people still alive who were involved with the Board of Transportation, the construction contractors, who lived in the neighborhood, etc.
Who cares.
The present debate concerning it began long before his joke page.
Who cares.
The present debate concerning it began long before his joke page.
Most people, I would guess, are interested in what the key expert on abandoned stations has to say.
Joe Brennan is also one of the few people still doing original reseearch instead of looking up answers on the Internet or letting others do it for them.
Can anyone please supply the url to that April Fools Day page. I never saved it and have been trying to find it for a while!!!
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st.html
Thank You. When I first read it when it first came out, it did have me fooled. Now when I read it again and read how the Federal Gov't and agents with US Air Force ID got involved in a transit union labor dispute I cannot believe that I was fooled!!!
Besides, did you notice wat colors the "1948" R-10s were painted!
Yeah... RIGHT!
Elias
Well, I wasn't around in '48, I wasn't born till '53 so I really didn't know what the R-10's color's were then, but, I certainly didn't think that train was brand new as the caption stated!!
This is what the R-10 looked like when delivered in 1948:
Here is what they looked like in the 1970 after an attempt to make them look like the R36s:
The MTA scheme shown on Joe Brennan's page was adopted after the R40Ms and R42s arrived on the property.
Elias
Now then... What Happens if you compare this photo
with the one from 76th Street in 1948:
Now lets compare this image taken in 1974
with the 1948 image:
See how the 76th Street station is like the Bermuda Triangle? Notice how the guy looking out of the front of the railfan window must have been drawn through the vortex at 76th Street right after the entire station was drawn into the Atlantis Subway System around 1948 (possible right after the photo was taken.
Miraculously, the poor guy must have been drawn into 1974 and into that R10 at the 7th Avenue station. (Possibly it was the flash in the camera that triggered the vortex to spit him back out and into 7th Avenue Station in the exact position he was in when he was sucked up in 76th Street in 1948). Watch for a similar vortex at 7th Avenue.
Vortex? No vortex. That's just a diehard railfan -- he hasn't left the window for 26 years!
Nah, that's "Sparky the inflatable foamer" (otherwise known as "the motorman's friend") ... that was standard issue back in the 1970's. If you wanted to operate in peace and leave your cab door open for air, you'd pump up the plastic foamer and deposit them at the fan glass to discourage railfans from boarding your train. Worked well too, most of the serious foamers who made life a living hell in the cab would see the window occupied and wait for the NEXT train. Worked like a champ. :)
If you wanted to operate in peace and leave your cab door open for air, you'd pump up the plastic foamer and deposit them at the fan glass to discourage railfans from boarding your train.
Oh, is THAT what the inflatable foamer was used for? ;-)
Among other things. And if you hit a signal, you'd go hide in the #2 end and let the beakie write THEM up. :)
let the beakie write THEM up
Beakie ... that's a term I haven't heard in years.
Well, it's mentioned in the original Pelham 1-2-3.
Wow, 76 St ACTUALLY existed, so guys there you have it, the mystery has finally been solved.....
Do you think that R10 is still there? With that same guy at the front window?
This is creeping me out...
Yeah, it is creepy to see the SAME guy in the R10 railfan window for 26 years, yikes maybe he lives in the tunnels and exclusively rode R10's all that time I wonder if he lost le power from standing all those times :).
Do you think that R10 is still there? With that same guy at the front window?
This is creeping me out...
That same guy at the railfan window!!!!!! hahahahaha!!!!! Do you think he's still there!!!! hahahahahah!!!!!
You know. I really needed this laugh. I could not stop laughing for the last 5 minutes from these posts.
That "diehard railfan" is probably the ghost that is living in the 76th Street station, and he wants to continue living there, so that is why he has been keeping the station a major secret.
In seriousness, if in 1974 that guy only knew the hours of laughter he was going to cause people in the year 2002, I wonder if he would have stood there that day when he decided to look out the railfan window on the B that day.
A railfan window on the B? We haven't had any of those since the night of 7/21/01 (and I was at it and even ran into another SubTalker heading the same way).
Yeah, I miss the R40's on the B. For quite some time the B was synonymous with the slants. I still have that image of the B, even now.
I can still hear those slants rumbling along 4th Ave. as they ripped past those four local stops.
You can still hear those slants today, though they're labeled N, not B. (Occasionally they show up on the W, too, but usually on weekends, when the W runs local.)
I thought B's didn't have railfan windows since 1999 [maybe except for the occasional R40] when the B & Q made a fleet swap, Q's [the orange Q even though most or all R68's NEVER had the orange Q bullet] trading the R68/R68A for the R40 and a few R32's.
You're right, but once in a while, an R-40 set would creep onto the B on a weekend.
On July 21, 2001, the day before the bridge flip, someone posted here that one such set was running. That night, I was waiting at Columbus Circle for a B to take me to Stillwell for the ceremonial first ride on the yellow Q and, lo and behold, guess what pulled up!
The R40's suit the B better than the R68's, IMO. Did you get to the inaugural yellow Q in time b/c we all know how the B was [and still is] at times.
Sure did. See posts 241347 and 241427.
Looks like Keith (aka Far Rockaway ATrain) at the railfan window. Wow! He's older than I thought...:)
.....NOT!! Keep dreaming. But I have to say, that was a clever trick to throw people off. The only thing was that you could see the MTA stripe in the 2nd photo at "76 St", but he made that blue to further illusion people, that's a real historian who could even play tricks on you.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
You mean the running lights. The R-10s were delivered without headlights, so at least the fakery is accurate in the fake photo.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
Also notice how in his description, he was able to pass of the flourscent lighting with a plausibility... There was NO WAY he could have gotten away with the paint scheme, so he didn't mention it and got away with it.
GOOD WORK!
: ) Elias
Also notice how in his description, he was able to pass of the flourscent lighting with a plausibility... There was NO WAY he could have gotten away with the paint scheme, so he didn't mention it and got away with it.
I remember when the subject first came up on Harry Beck's board last April; everyone was trying to dispute the lighting in the station. Actually by drawing attention to the lights, he made everyone totally oblivious to the fact that the R10 had MTA colors. Everyone was focused on the station lighting. I myself, like most others, did not even think of the paint scheme on the train. And the fluorescent lighting was original in the stations east of Bway-ENY, so 76th would have it if the station existed. By drawing everyone to the lights, me made the eagle eyes less focused on disputing anything else in the photo. I am still amazed that none of the usually sharp eyed subfans did not even notice the MTA colors. Many here ram down people's throats for a lot less noticeable discrepancies that that! That's what made the joke even better, that it took so long for usually observant railfans to notice that blatant discrepancy!
If the truth be known, I noticed that R-10 paint scheme right away and thought, that doesn't jive with the original two-tone gray paint job those cars sported back then. Plus the graphics on the bulkhead signs didn't look right. Plus that photo looked strangely familiar. That's when I put two and two together, and it didn't equal four.
That was one of the best April Fool jokes I've ever encountered.
I think he went a little too far when he mentioned men with US Air Force ID getting involved in a NYC labor dispute. That was when I started getting suspicious. And of course the kids saying their toys were disappearing in the ground made it sound kind of science-fictionish.
I did notice the MTA stripe last night[although I had to look twice], I wanted to see how much subtalkers would be duped into believing that so I kept my mouth shut. Its the rush of believing the 76 St folly so that's what happens. The kicker was throwing in the blue shade to make it look like it was 1948, as SOON as you saw that, it should have came to mind that he was hiding something.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
Yes indeed. I didn't even notice the headlights till you mentioned it. I did however notice the first time we compared photos that he left the period from after "7 AV." It is still there in the second photo with "76".
And Joe removed the headlights in the original and added the running lights (visible in the 1st photo) to "backdate" the shot, plus retouched the car so the grafitti was gone, since it didn't exist in 1948.
Absolutely the best April Fool trick ever pulled on the railfans.
What's even better is Joe's able to say nothing, even though it's been fooling lots of folks for almost 3 years. The man is a wizard. The 76th Street Station story has to be one the best jobs ever pulled.
What's even better is Joe's able to say nothing, even though it's been fooling lots of folks for almost 3 years. The man is a wizard. The 76th Street Station story has to be one the best jobs ever pulled.
In the proper spirit of April 1, he took it off the index page within a day or two after posting it.
But remember, the nature of a successful con is the gull's willingness to believe it.
Having said that, it had me going too when I first saw it--it was so well done and had a reputable researcher's stamp on it. Only after my eye wandered to "Page last updated 1 April 2002" did I begin to pick it apart.
One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST."
"One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST." "
Hate to disagree, but (as a lifelong IND rider) on the right was the letter and the "route" (A/8th Ave, F/6 Ave, GG/Crosstown) and on the left was the terminal (Wash Hts/207, 179 St/Jamaica, Queens/Forest Hls).
Oops got that backwards, letter on left and terminal on right. Sorry.
One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST." "
Hate to disagree, but (as a lifelong IND rider) on the right was the letter and the "route" (A/8th Ave, F/6 Ave, GG/Crosstown) and on the left was the terminal (Wash Hts/207, 179 St/Jamaica, Queens/Forest Hls).
Hate to counter-disagree, but the destination (as opoosed to route)sign was constructive as LINE/STATION, not STATION/COMMUNITY so trains terminating at Euclid were signed FULTON EUCLID though the station is at Pitkin, and the D goes to CONCOURSE 205th ST though the station isn't on the Grand Concourse.
Not to try and argue with anyone...but it seems to be a 50/50 mix on those older iND signs.
While the "Fulton/Euclid", "Fulton/Lefferts", "Concourse/205th" and "Concourse/Bedford Pk" hold the LINE/street pattern to be true....there are the street/neighborhood signs such as "207th St. Wash. Hgts", "179th St. Jamaica", "168th St. Wash. Hgts.", and "71st Ave. Forest Hills" all on the same IND rollsigns!
And then there are the signs that designate neither the line's name nor the neighborhood..."Kings Highway", "Coney Island" for example.
Oh well, sure this 76th Street situation has brought up a LOT of discussion...but at least (so far) flame wars haven't erupted.
Happy holidays to everyone!
As annoying 76th Street can be, it's threads bring up everything possible about the subway to talk about from porcelain signs to paint schemes to headlights to column placement on local stations to flourescent lighting and then some. (plus every supernatural event know to man).
As annoying 76th Street can be, it's threads bring up everything possible about the subway to talk about from porcelain signs to paint schemes to headlights to column placement on local stations to flourescent lighting and then some. (plus every supernatural event know to man).
Outstanding point.
We get to discuss aspects of history, what constitutes proof, and all kinds of arcana.
All the fun of a flame war without the personal attacks! :)
....there are the street/neighborhood signs such as "207th St. Wash. Hgts", "179th St. Jamaica", "168th St. Wash. Hgts.", and "71st Ave. Forest Hills" all on the same IND rollsigns!
There are some exceptions, but in original IND practice the only valid exception of the ones you listed is possibly "179th St. Jamaica", which original read JAMAICA / 179th ST, if you accept that the line name is "QUEENS" not "JAMAICA".
But the other examples were originally WASH HGTS / 207th ST, WASH HGTS / 168TH (Washington Heights is the name of the line, whether or not those stations are in the community of Washington Heights). The other destination was QUEENS / FOREST HILLS.
And then there are the signs that designate neither the line's name nor the neighborhood..."Kings Highway", "Coney Island" for example.
Obviously, these are not original IND destinations.
Happy holidays to everyone!
Same to you, and everyone! :)
The R-1/9s followed the line-station pattern on their destination curtains. The R-27/30s flip-flopped the order, and the R-32s and R-38s followed suit.
However, you could roll an R-1/9 bulkhead curtain to show certain combinations flip-flopped. For example, you could get "168th St. Wash. Hts" or "Bedford Pk. Concourse". Assuming that "Queens-Forest Hills" followed "Jamaica-179th St", you could also show "179th St. Queens".
Ah....as I wasn't thee when those cars were new, just going by pictures which obviously showed newer signage.
As for the Washington Heights LINE....versus it being on the signs as the neighborhood name, I see your point! Never gave it a thought as the "line name", but, 'tis true!
Kings Highway & Coney Island...yeah, that went right over my head that those weren't original IND destinations. :-)
It makes me wonder if his other locations are on the level.
It makes me wonder if his other locations are on the level.
Fool me once. Fool me again?
I trust Brennan on his reputation and thoroughness. I've corresponded with him on differences of opinion, and just that's just what they are--differences of opinion or one or the other of us had more complete information on any given issue.
If it were put up straight in September and left up, you might consider it a "hoax." On April 1 and with some broad hints, it's a "joke."
When I first saw it I thought it might be real because of the pix and his reputation. But after I read the text...
"A followup story in the News Queens edition on 2 December told the story of an area man who walked through the intersection each day to reach the Fulton St El station at City Line, a few blocks to the northwest: 'I was walking home one day and noticed the new subway entrance. I was amazed because there was nothing there that morning. I don't know how human beings could work so fast.'
[ ... ]
"A neighborhood kid told me not to go in there, because it wasn't safe to stand on. He said he bounced a ball in there once and it disappeared right into the ground. A man inside the house came to the door and explained, "Hey you, get out of here. What are you taking pictures?' "
Do we need more hints?
Maybe it's 7th Ave that doesn't exist!
The R-10s were all half-and-half teal and white by 1970. The racing stripe scheme prevailed from 1966 to 1068.
The R-10s were all half-and-half teal and white by 1970. The racing stripe scheme prevailed from 1966 to 1968.
Sorry for the typo.
Don't feel bad. A lot of us fell for it, hook, line and sinker.
"A lot of us fell for it, hook, line and sinker."
I have to admit I'm beginning to believe I've been wrong.
There was a website I read where the IND Second System plan was to have split up after Euclid Ave. I think it is listed somewhere else in nycsubway.com. One branch was to have connected to the BMT Fulton El at City Line. The other was to have continued underground to S/E Queens.
If someone was to look at the 1939 BOT proposed subway routes map they would have noticed the route continues along Pitkin and makes a curve around where the 3 cemeteries are between 80 and 84 Streets. But I will admit her and now that of the proposed IND second system route the only section that was actually built was the section past Euclid Ave. After Euclid, 2 tracks go to Pitkin Yard. 2 tracks go to Grant Ave. 4 tracks continue along. The route goes on until it reaches the bumper blocks and it ends there. Why does the control board in Euclid Ave tower has 76 St listed as a station? I don't know. Are there any other towers in the system where the control board has stations that are not there?
the link is nwo broken. (the page does not exist)
No, it still works.
the link is now broken. (the page does not exist)
Thanks for posting the link. It worked for me.
Has anyone noticed that Joe's track map doesn't correspond to what's on the board, and also doesn't allow trains to reverse direction properly at 76th? There is no way to get from the eastbound local track to the westbound. A train would have to wrong rail all the way back to Euclid.
Notice also that 76th is shown as a local station, which may have been the intent. Whatever plans there were for 76th, it wasn't supposed to be the last stop. Ss this map may be accurate as far as its shown--that is, in terms of the inability to use it as a terminal.
I would have thought that 76 St was just the first station after Euclid Ave. The route would go further and more stations would follow.
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place.
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place
How would that prove it? Do you intend to drill a core sample in the street and see if you come up with a core sample of a moldy R10? Or dig in someone's backyard?
The most certain way, if you don't trust the TA, is to go to the Department of Streets and ask to see an underground utilities map for the location. Period.
>>How would that prove it?<<
Im not proving anything. Im putting a long argument to rest.
Im not proving anything. Im putting a long argument to rest.
But then we'll have to move on to an endless thread about the PCC trolley buried under Ocean Parkway and Church Avenue.
I can stand the 76 street stuff, but good lord please no.
or the "unnamed gov't spy agency" using the other half of the long lost Atlantic Ave. LIRR tunnel as their western hemisphere remote viewing headquarters.
shhh!
I have personally heard from informed sources thrice removed who are no longer with us that PCC 1002 is buried in the tunnel at Ocean Pkwy and Church Avenue on the eastbound track. In addition, there is another PCC in SEPTA colors in Brooklyn (others have seen it) which is supposed to go into service at this location once the tunnel is restored to service as part of the Kensington Access Project. Some study has been done on the effect the tunnel would have at that intersection if it were reopened.
--Mark
Interesting! That BQT PCC sounds like wishful thinking (it wouldn't be the first tall tale I've heard about cars surviving in barns/tunnels), but I would love to be surprised. The SEPTA PCC is #2739, owned by the Brooklyn Lyceum club but apparently not used for anything. I don't think that there are any plans for this car to operate, but then again the club could have sold it off.
http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-query.pl?sel_curown=Brooklyn+Lyceum&match_target=&Tech=Yes&pagelen=200
Frank Hicks
ROFLOL
:-) Sparky
You could have waited until April 1 to post that.:)
Not that it would top that 76th St. joke. (No - please don't start that again!)
Or you can just go out to western Pennsylvania and borrow one of the seismograph trucks from one of the oil exploration companies (hey, Halliburton could use the extra cash right now), park it at 76th and Pitkin and just let it pound down on the street a few times and the read the returning sound waves. That would give you a good map of what's below, and as an added bonus, if the city hasn't taken care of the supports the way they should of, you might actually see the truck pay a visit to the station...
Wow! That's a great idea! You get the truck and I'll meet you in Queens!
--Brian
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place.
I'll go if there is a trip.
We already do. Like the Roswell incident and the Philadelpia experiment, this controversy has taken on a life of it's own, despite the incredible lack of any evidence to support it and a wealth of evidence to refute it.
Fact is that people are really HOPING it exists. The unknown is always 'exciting.'
Yes it is "exciting" but at the same time some postere are taking it WAY too seriously. I say it does not exist [if it does I'll feel stupid.....NOT!], it's just a myth to make it more interesting than it actually is.
This is today's lead article in the Staten Island Advance - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/103884039718220.xml
A related article concerning the traction gel used by SIRT (and presumably by NYCT) - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/103884039518220.xml
And, a thread from their Transit Forum on this subject from last week - http://www.silive.com/forums/transit/index.ssf?artid=4462
North Shore Railroad Right-of-Way Feasibility Study
Staten Island Borough President James P. Molinaro invites you to learn more about the study at a Public Meeting on
Tuesday, December 10, 2002
The Jury Room
Staten Island Court House
126 Stuyvesant Place
Staten Island NY 10301
(Across from Staten Island Borough Hall)
5 PM - 8 PM
Funded by The Port Authority of NY & NJ
Prime Consultant - URS Corporation
What's the plan, does it include the HBLRT over the Bayonne?
Today i was on Myrtle Ave in Ridgwood Queens waiting for the SLOW bus and i noticed a rare site on the freight over pass thats on the intersection of fresh pond rd and myrtle, An R142 on a flatbed!!!!!
What was it doing there??????? and if it was there would the delivery have to pass by my house in bushwick where i have a view of the same freight line when it passes next to the L train on the embankment aproach to the Wilson Ave Station???????
Actually it happens quite often. The R142 cars are delivered via CP rail from Plattsburg NY to Oak Point in the Bronx, and from there across the Hell Gate Bridge to the Fresh Pond Yard just north of Myrtle Ave. In that yard the cars are run off the flat cars to the rails using a ramp. The cars are then hauled along the NY & Atlantic south to the Linden Shop of NYC Transit at Linden Blvd. They are then hauled north up a special track alongside the NY&A which connects with the Livonia Ave el. That's how they get on to NYCTA property. You should be able to see them at Wilson Ave, but the moves may occur only in the middle of the night.
142 or 143??
-Don't the 142s come from the Yonkers Plant via flatbed down Broadway?
it was an r142, i made sure of that lol, and of course now that u tell me they do the runs at nite im gonna have to look out the window. i hear alot of freight action at nite lately but i didnt know it was subway cars being hauled!!!!!!!!
NO, they are definitely R142's, I've seen them myself there and at LIRR (NYA) Fresh Pond Yard.
The Kawasaki R142's are delivered from Yonkers. The Bombardier R142's are delivered via Fresh Pond.
R142A's and R143's are delivered by flatbet down Broadway (on truck). R142's and the LIRR M7's are delivered by freight to FP yard by what was posted above.
I think Victor kind of covered it. But if you'd like to see some more of them on that line, head over to Glendale to the yard on Otto Road. I saw a few of them on flatcars in the freight yard there. It's hit or miss, but I have seen the R142's there at various times of the day in the yard (unfortunately, without my camera). I also saw them moving over the Myrtle Ave Bridge (at Fresh Pond Road) this past summer.
Hey GP38 Chris, I remember seeing some R14's in that yard too! Its located along Otto Rd. I believe the LIRR runs through there as well.
Its located along Otto Rd. I believe the LIRR runs through there as well.
It is a LIRR yard, or now actually New York and Atlantic, which took over the LIRR Freight. The R142's are there quite often, you just have to hit it right. Actually, the LIRR uses those tracks quite often for a few revenue runs between Long Island City and Jamaica, but more often also for deadhead moves.
Waiting for a SLOW bus, I bet its the crappy ass Q55. You're not alone, I feel your pain.
no it was the even slower B20. lol
I went to the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge, just east of Frankford Junction in Philly, to catch some of Amtrak's Sunday-after-Thanksgiving holiday extras, arriving around 10 AM. I wasn't adequately prepared for the blustery wind, and my fingers got so cold that I sometimes snapped the shutter early or late, so I left at 1 PM. It was rewarding, however, as Amtrak trains 3043 and 3095 were Jersey Arrows and train 3074 was a MARC trainset. I was also pleased to see an HHP-8 and an E60 (#600), as well as all the expected AEM7's and Acela Expresses, perhaps including the one that WMATAGMOAGH was on.
Including SEPTA R7's and NJT Atlantic City trains, as well as Conrail activity, I managed to photograph 26 trains in the three hours.
The photos are uploaded onto a Webshots page.
Why did they use ARROW III's and not something nicer like Comet V or Comet IV trainsets?
When Amtrak borrows MU's from NJTransit, Septa and MARC, do they run the cars at the regular Amtrak speeds (110 - 115 mph) or are they regulated to the normal speeds these cars usually travel?
NJT Arrow III's have a top speed of 100 mph. MARC ALP-44's can go 125 and the cars probably the same. NJT ALP's can only go 100 as NJT's rolling stock is limited to 100.
MARC ALP-44's can go 125
MARC has AEM7's.
Same differance.
Same difference???!!!
SEPTA ALP-44
SEPTA AEM-7
Equipment is restricted to the speeds in the Amtrak employee timetable, regardless if the equipment is being used by SEPTA, MARC, or Amtrak.
Amtrak speeds are up to 130 mph for the Acela Express and Amfleet between NYP and WAS.
My viewing point was the Bowie Railroad Museum in the former Bowie Tower, located next to the WAS-NYP main line.
Michael
Washington, DC
Click here for the online version. A must for old timers who rode the el back in the 30's, 40's & 50's.
Plus it tells a lot of the story of when the part from Wyckoff to Metropolitan was known as the Lutheran Cemetery line.
Since I grew up in Ridgewood, if I had a time machine, the one thing I would like to do is to go back to 1906-1916 when the Wyckoff end of the Mrytle Ave El was connnected by an embankment to the Lutheran line which was then at grade with stations at Covert (Seneca) Ave., Forest Ave. Fresh Pond Rd. and Metropolitan Ave.
And by the way Chris, I took the Q-cars and Standards on the Myrtle Ave. El in the early 60's and I don't consider myself an old timer (yet :-) - give me a year or two! I just barely remember the Gate cars, but I didn't ride the El that often early on and I was 9 years old when they were replaced by the Q's. My older (by 5 years) cousin, on the other hand, only remembers the gate cars since he didn't use the El much after 1958.
Thanks for posting that. I try to read the "Our neighborhood the way it was" link from the Ridgewood Times because it used to be my neighborhood, and am still very interested in it's history. But many times I forget to check (like this week), so thanks for reminding me. Many times the "neighborhood" article does include info on the M line route, or the LIRR, etc through the area.
The link changes weekly, so get your clicks now, next week it will be something else.
If she remembers closing windows on gate cars, she must be remembering before 1950. That was when the 600, 900 & 1200 series cars were replaced on the Myrtle Ave line by the 1300 series.
I would have posted this earlier, but I couldn't FTP to upload the appropriate map.
Since 76th Street is speculative, I feel it is up to the people who say it does exist to prove, rather than for the people who don't think it exists to definitively prove that. This is because it is hard to prove a negative.
The positives are speculation. The only piece of somewhat hard definitive evidence that 76th Street does exist is the Euclid model board, but this is flawed because the model board could have been created in anticipation of a station that was never built--sort of like pockets for lines that were never built.
The second piece which should mean something is eyewitness ID. We don't have that. The people who claim to have seen the station are unavailable. I've had trainmen pull my leg on things which common sense says are false--people do this all the time.
So we are left with drawings and maps. These also are non-definitive. I have detailed engineering drawings of the 42nd Street Conveyor Belt. The what? See what I mean.
And I have this map of the loop connection from the Brooklyn Bridge - Chambers Street connection. This is a BRT engineering drawing.
Interesting. Trains from the Williamsburgh bridge would continue south of Chambers back into Brooklyn via the Brooklyn bridge and then via the els that served it (Fulton, Myrtle, Lexington, 5th Ave), while trains from the Manhattan bridge would have continued south via Nassau to the Montague St. tube and back to Brooklyn.
It's as if Chambers St. was the convergence of 2 loops, one eastern division and one southern division, forming a figure 8. This drawing certainly makes the configuration of Chambers St. today a lot more understandable. It also implies that all the elevateds serving the Brooklyn Bridge were going to have to be rebuilt to heavy subway standards, as Fulton St. was from Franklin to Atlantic.
And a third loop was Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, via the crossovers. This could have enabled Fulton L Trains to loop, returning via the Ashland Place connection.
Thanks for posting that. It is one of the most easy to understand maps I have seen of the Nassau Line. I think the Nassau Line is fascinating - probably one of the most interesting lines in the system, even if much of it is in shambles....well they are working on that. Maybe part of the intrigue is that it is in such a state of decay. Hey, I must be sick, Chambers Street is one of my favorite stations.
Notice the three track Broad St. station (like Whitehall) and the simple Fulton St.
I take it that is on Williams St. and not Nassau St.
Good observation, I didn't even notice that the first time about Broad Street. It seems it would have made more sense to build Broad like that, instead of as a two track, wall platform station. I wonder why they changed that design. I assume it would have been much easier to use Broad as a terminal if it were like Whitehall. The M's could have used the outer tracks, and the J could have terminated on the middle track.
For those of you who aren't aware of the 42nd St conveyor ...
In 1954, Sidney H. Bingham, then chairman of the Board of Transportation, proposed a conveyor belt system to transport a dozen people at a time in small cars continuously moving between Times Square and Grand Central, following the route of today's shuttle. A contract of $3.8 million was awarded in November of that same year, but was cancelled less than a year later because it was believed to be too expensive.
This technology was revisited as a circulator for the 48th St / 3rd Ave Metropolitan Transportation Center that was part of the 1968 "Program for Action". The MTC was never built.
--Mark
Slight correction -- Bingham was Chairman of the original New York City Transit Authority, which took over operation of the subway in 1953 from the Board of Transportation.
David
Thank you for the correction.
--Mark
Your server is slow. It's taking forever to load that map.
Your server is slow. It's taking forever to load that map.
Dang! It sure is. I wonder if that's temporary--anywaythat server is going to be history in a few months anyway--maybe sooner.
Try this link.
Just after the election, the "Planning Studies" section of the Official MTA Website disappeared.
Is the link gone or has the entire section been removed from the web server?
Just after the election, the "Planning Studies" section of the Official MTA Website disappeared.
I can't say that's too ominous ... merely hearing the word "Study(ies)" creates a bad taste in my mouth.
I still see it there ... hover over or click on "Inside the MTA".
Here it is, safe and sound!
:-) Andrew
Why I believe the R-42 was controversial is that why the TA
would spend so much money to create a entirely new car which was
not so different from the old one (R-40).
What was the controversy?
David
Are you getting the R42 mixed up with the R44?
Aren't you a bit late? How many of the people who were resposible for this decision are now dead? Nothing like dragging a corpse out of the closet.
And besides, which came first, the R40M or the R42? Could the MTA have saved money by using the R42 nose on the R40M (or the R40M nose on the R42) after the minor failure of the R40 slant? I would count passengers falling and being sliced to pieces by the wheels a failure of design, especially on a passenger railcar where passengers are supposed to be able to walk between cars.
To bring this up to today, why are we paying to have a whole new R160 fleet, with all the contract talks and lawyers fees that that brings when we have the R143 fleet? To me, all the artist renderings look virually identical, why didn't the MTA just order the R160s under a massive option for R143s?
It sounds like the R143-R160's are going to be like the R27-30's. I still can't tell them apart in photos - I certainly didn't know there where different. Same with the R44-R46's. They are different, but they are more alike than the R40M-R42's, I believe. WHen the R40 slants were found to be a deign nightmare, the R42's must have been on the drawing board already. The fronts are almost identical. The sides however are distinctively different.
I just don't know why when they built the R40M's, they put the R42 end on one end, and kept the R40 end (although not a problem like the slant end) on the other end.
They had 300 cars of the 400 built and they were already having trouble with the Slants - i.e. big gaps, locked "A" end doors, etc. so they needed a quick fix. The Sundberg-Farrar design was already on the drawing board (R42) so they grafted the nose onto the already-engineered R40 body and voila! R40M. The first ones in were the 4200s followed by the Brake Test cars. By the time the last of them arrived, they went straight to their current numbers.
wayne
2 or 3 years ago, some kid fell between the unlocked doors
of an Slant.
Was on the car when it happened. The child was standing infront of the door with his mother sitting down. Someone had just changed cars and the door did not lock tight. The door opened when the train went over a track switch betweeen dekalb and the manny-b.
I believe it was at the non slant end of the car
Yes, it was the blind end of the car. If, as you state, you were on it you should know that.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "B" ends of Slant R40 and R40M are treacherous as the carbodies have rounded corners and there are no handholds between the cars as there are on, say, the R32, R38 and R42.
wayne
What about "blind" ends of Redbirds?
They have handholds.
There is a difference between the R-143 and the 160, but it is not cosmetic. It's an operational difference. The R-160 fleet will NOT carry CBTC systems. However, the contract stipulates that CBTC features can be added on as an option at a later date.
It could be one of two possible things, in my eye:
1. The original call for the R160 contract was for 5 car units. The 4 car unit part of the contract probably came around because someone realized the current 143 contract & options didn't fulfill all their needs.
2. Possibily the (proposed) manufacture date of the cars. Maybe the MTA has a time frame in which a contract must be fulfilled.
Just my $0.02.
D'oh... stupid Mozilla and I turned off the Save Forms too.
And how did you get to that conclusion? So what if the R42's resemble R40M's, they move passengers & that's it, to me this topic is controversial :).
I don't know what you're talking about, but just because a car looks like an older model doesn't mean the mechianics are the same. Do you think that the 25 year old WMATA 1000s are mechainically similiar to the brand new 5000s, since the outsides are pretty much the same? Not a chance. Car bodies are a dime a dozen, you can make it look like anything you want. Most money goes into the guts of a car.
The R-40/42's were (and are) the TA's Edsel, having spent
millions to develop a new and stylish car, only to have it
look ugly, boxy, and unsafe.
More was spent to retrofit pantograph gates, door guards, and
not to mention the worst MDBF in the fleet.
How does the R-42 look unsafe? It looks quite safe to me. Handsome, too.
The R-40 is a different story.
How does the R-42 look unsafe? It looks quite safe to me. Handsome, too.
Once upon a time it had not pantographs on it. It had those spring things at the "B" end, but IIRC there was no protection for two "A" ends coupled together.
So, people from the platform could fall in. Or worse. try to jump on, and only then find out that it had no handgrips where they expected them to be.
Elias
See, here is a picture of it (Handsome train too!)
The hand grips are inside the door opening rather than on the face of the car.
: ) Elias
At least the odd looking black trim has been painted over. Well, the pantographs were for the passengers own good, well to the topic starter, if the topic had started with the R40, then you may have more responses and THAT car was real controversial & that was 30+ years ago so we gladly accepted them after the pantographs and bars were added.
At least the odd looking black trim has been painted over.
Black Trim???
Yeah, when they first came, like the future R44 and R46 orders, it had some black trim in the front of the car [hideous!].
Amazingly, as delivered, the front of the R42's look very similar to the LIRR M1's.
It was all part of the MTA "family look" or "corporate look". That was the genesis for the silver-and-blue paint scheme.
Family look?! :-\ You wish, and with graffiti & breakdowns just a few years later, the family look was way gone thats for sure. Looked very good with the blue stripe.
The R-40/42's were (and are) the TA's Edsel, having spent
millions to develop a new and stylish car, only to have it
look ugly, boxy, and unsafe.
????? I think you mean the R40's, the slants. Your comments to match them, but them only.
There is nothing unsafe about the R40M's or the R42's.
There is certainly nothing that makes the R42's look ugly or boxy. In fact, they are among the most attractive cars in the system.
Exactly but w/o all the rust, they would look real good, I wish the blue stripe could return on the sides.
The BRT/LIRR Chestnut St. connection was in use from approximately 1896-1916. I have heard that it was completely torn down sometime in the early 1940's since the steel was needed for the War effort.
However, it may have actually been partially torn down much earlier - 1926 - if this track map from the Bob Emery collection is to be believed. The Map, which dates from about 1960, says that some of the girders (it doesn't specify steel or wood) were used to upgrade the overpass of the Port Jefferson line over what then was Bydenburgh Rd.
Here's the map:
That's really interesting. I love triva like that.
Bob, I believe that the actual ramps on Atlantic Ave were removed before WWII. I grew up in the area in the 1940's, and my earliest memories were that the rest of the steel work was still in place in the empty square block bordered by Fulton, Chestnut, Euclid and Atlantic. The LIRR was converted to subway on Atlantic around the same time that the last of the steelwork was taken down. I was so young at the time that I can't remember which happened first.
My guess is that the LIRR tore down the portion of the structure under their control. The BRT was facing for keeping infrastructure just to have it.
On the BMT J line just before Cresent St you can see the girders pointing south from Fulton St toward Atlantic Ave.
Once upon a time, there was another BRT/LIRR connection. That was on Flatbush Ave south of the LIRR terminal. The connection lasted until 1917. The rusty remains of it lasted until the mid-late 1970's. Until I found out about the BRT 5th Ave El, I couldn't figure out what was the purpose of it.
Do you mean the connection that supposedly carried August Belmont's Mineola at Flatbush/Atlantic to the LIRR so he can ride to Belmont Raceway? Or is this another one?
No, he means the connection from the 5th Avenue El (Brooklyn) to the LIRR just past the site of the Atlantic Avenue terminal.
No, Belmont's connection was on the subway level. It hasn't been used in a long time. August Belmont died in 1924. There was a curve in the wall alongside the N/B IRT route north of Atlantic Ave where the connection was and it heads for the LIRR route. With the reconstruction going on at Atlantic Ave Complex lately, the site probably has been covered over by now.
The connection I was talking about was upstairs in the street. A train would go southbound or outbound out of Sands or Park Row. After it passed the LIRR terminal on Flatbush it would make a left hand turn, Go down the ramp to the LIRR yard and go out along Atlantic Ave to the Rockaway Park line at 99-100 Street, make a right and go out to the Rockaways. That connection was severed about 1918. IIRC it was something to do with a directive from the War Department. Someone else can answer that better than me.
IIRC the LIRR connection was just before that series of switches that allows a s/b local to cross all the way over to the n/b local track. There'a a new cinder block wall where the curve used to be.
I would think it was a elevated grade crossing from a s/b local to the LIRR ramp. IIRC there was a building blocking the route of the old ramp when I first saw it in the late 1970's.
There is still a remnant of that connection. In the LIRR tunnel between Nostrand Avenue and Flatbush Avenue terminal there are two trackways leading to open portals. One of the portals has track and leads to a yard. The other does not have any track but does have niches in the walls for trackworkers. Joe Brennan told me that this portal was used for the LIRR/5th Avenue El connection.
If I recall correctly, the original connection when the LIRR was still at grade, was used from about 1899 to 1903. Here's a picture (the one car train is on the connection, the tower is on the 5th Ave. El)
When the new undergound Flatbush Ave. terminal was built, a new connection was made (the one you describe above) but never actually used for revenue service.
By the way, when they were building the new Flatbush Ave. terminal, the old connection served as a temporary terminal by building wooden platforms around it.
By the way, at that point in the picture, the 5th Ave. El is running over Flatbush Ave.
Great Photo.
A number of prints exist of that photo. I have one. It also appeared in Seyfried, where he alleges it to be the only picture of that connection with a train on it.
I've seen other pictures of that connection, and so far Seyfried hasn't been disproven.
So, what route did LIRR trains take on the 5th Ave El? I never heard of this connection before.
Until about 1980, a 'divorced' section of el ran along Atlantic Avenue, crossing 6th Ave, and descended into the cut.
Was that the old LIRR/5th Ave El connection?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It lasted even more recently than that - hunks were taken out over the concrete street bridges crossing the yard when they were rebuilt in the early 80's. The rest of the old 5th ave connection el came down in the early 90's (was living down near that nabe for a time, but moved before it finally came down).
Interesting how the el structure in downtown Brooklyn that saw the shortest, and infrequent actual use ended up being the last one up.
So, what route did LIRR trains take on the 5th Ave El?
I think they only went as far as Sands St. I'm not sure if LIRR trains went over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row.
The BRT used the connection to send some of its 5th Ave. El trains to Manhattan Beach
OK Bob, now I'm getting confused. If my memory is correct, the structure that was taken down in the 70's or 80's (which I remember) was s/o the Atlantic Av roadway over the trainyard yet in the picture it is n/o the roadway. (I'm assuming the photo is facing West) Either they moved the Atlantic Av roadway which is improbable, or my memory of the location is wrong.
Anyone have the answer?
As I mentioned earlier, the connection you remember was the second one built after the LIRR FLatbush Ave. terminal was made underground. The first one, shown in the picture was torn down around 1905.
Thanks Bob, I thought I was having one of Fred's Senior moments!!!
IIRC the LIRR was running service out of Flatbush Terminal on the surface. I know the location that you're talking about. I think in the last few years, the LIRR yard (Carlton?) has been shrinking and the leads were removed.
My old stomping grounds! I grew up about 1 mile from the lumber yard. Played many a game of Ring-O-Levio in the yard on Sundays with my buddies before one day getting chased off by the railroad bulls!
Here at work, (many of us NE Corridor Commuters) are here pondering....What would happen if the Penn Station Tunnels, or even worse the NE Corridor had to be shut down for an extended period of time?
2 questions...
1) What would the contingency plan be? How would people get in and out
2) Has this ever happened before?
My idea would be to operate bus shuttles from Trenton, and only allow bus and commercial traffic to use the lincoln tunnel. also i would restrict the nj turnpike to bus & commercial traffic north of exit 10....forcing other users to the other tunnels
I think they should do that now. Especially at night. It really shouldn't take 45 min to drive from one end of the tunnel to the turnpike. The PA should take a stand and say people need to start taking mass transit to the city.
On the LIRR side of the river, the contingency is to dump people at Woodside, Hunterspoint and Flatbush Avenue.
What about Long Island City? I'll bet we'd see the return of the LIC ferry big time.
Problem with the LIC ferry is the train no longer goes to the shore. You have a bus ride of several blocks. But, if Penn were COMPLETELY unavailable for an extended period, ferries might be viable.
>>Here at work, (many of us NE Corridor Commuters) are here pondering....What would happen if the Penn Station Tunnels, or even worse the NE Corridor had to be shut down for an extended period of time?
2 questions...
1) What would the contingency plan be? How would people get in and out
2) Has this ever happened before?
My idea would be to operate bus shuttles from Trenton, and only allow bus and commercial traffic to use the lincoln tunnel. also i would restrict the nj turnpike to bus & commercial traffic north of exit 10....forcing other users to the other tunnels<<
This was actually going to happen a few months ago when Amtrak was about to declare bankruptcy. They got their bailout package by wimping out the rail community with threats of closing all Amtrak owned facilities which included Penn Station.
If this was to happen today then New Jersey Transit would of ended trains at Pen Station in Newark. LIRR would of ended their trains at Long Island City, Flatbush Avenue and Jamaica. I would say it isnt pheasable to end trains at Flatbush grnated the limited amount of space at the station. But our fellow subtalkers have more knowledge when it comes to the LIRR
Amtrak would probably route corridor trains into Hoboken Terminal or connect with shuttle buses at the new Secaucas connection. NJT would probably terminate their corridor trains at Newark for the PATH connection. Look for expanded ferry service. If the North River tunnels were shut down for several years one option in addition to Hoboken would be for train service accross the Arthur Kill into St. George.
I thought the North shore railway on SI was partially dismantled?
And facing the loss of all through rail access to Manhattan I am sure that it would be remantled.
I posed this very same question, albeit from a more NJT commuter POV, on the Railroad.net NJT forum a few weeks ago, under the topic Penn Tunnel Construction Question. the basic answer I got was, "They don't know."
From the NJT side of things, it doesn't seem too overly complicated. I assumed that one tunnel would be made unusable due to maintenance ro restoration work and/or a terrorist act, hopefully leaving the other tunnel untouched, for Amtrak and limited NJT service. If I were running it, I'd:
<1> Drop all plans for Secaucus Transfer to ever be anything more than a nice, above-ground artificial tunnel, at least for the immediate future.
<2> Cancel all Mid-Town Direct service, pull all ALP engines from the Hoboken division and give them most of the Arrow IIIs off the NEC and NJCL. (I know there'd be a disparity there, I'd take more seats from the NEC and NJCL than I'd replace with the Arrow-ALP swap)
<3> String catenary over the Waterfront connection before the day was out. Heres where the ALPs come in, Arrows cannot make the change there to go from the 11kv NEC to the 25kv Hoboken division on the fly (I think Hoboken's 25Kv, somebody correct me if not). However, the Arrows can be reconfigured in the MMC (or somewhere) for 25kv. So now most passengers on NJT are being funneled into Hoboken.
<4> In addition to the ALP-Arrow swap, there would be lot more Diesel expresses, especially on the NJCL, which is diesel all down from Long Branch. Diesels may have sucky acceleration, but they should be able to hold their speed okay, so if they run express while the arrows and alps pick up the locals and semi-expresses, schedules should not falter too much. A few arrows would remain on the NEC, and most would provide the super-local (like stopping at North Elizablth), in addition to a rare one seat ride.
<5> You may have already gotten this from 3, but all ALP and Diesel pulled NEC and NJCL trains would be routed into Hoboken. Riders from places like Trenton, Princeton Junction, or Long Branch would have a choice between two routes. One, to get off at Newark Penn, and either grab a PATH to 33rd (I'm assuming that the WTC isn't ready yet), or a one of the already packed super-locals running Arrows into NYP on the remaining tunnel. Or, number two, which would be to stay on the train, ride it to Hoboken, where they could choose from PATH, a multitude of ferries, and possibly one or more temporary fixes to help get people over or under the Hudson, perhaps a Roosevelt Island style tramway, perhaps a quick-fix Cable-Stayed LRT-only bridge (done in 6 months? ala the 1/9 fix up after 9/11) at around 34th carrying the HBLRT into NY, this might require moving the hoboken terminal of the HBLRT closer to the NJT tracks.
The ride to hoboken would clearly be the one favored by the NJT officials, they don't want completely SRO Arrows in one of the tunnels should something else untoward happen.
<6> Beef up all ferry and fast ferry service into New York's Pier 11, or the one by the World Financial Center, and make the service much more accessable from the GSP or NJTP (ever try to find the Atlantic Highlands ferry docks, they're practically hidden!). Perhaps a permanent ferry terminal somewhere along the NJ shoreline west of Sandy Hook, ala Seattle's Coleman Docks. For those who don't mind a wait, maybe some slower, but vastly larger boats are on order, SI Ferrys is getting some new boats, perhaps 2 boats could be tagged onto that order. Then again, maybe it would be wise to contract with Todd Shipyards in Seattle, and get 1 or 2 of WSF's Jumbo MKII ferries, with the upper and side car decks removed, they should be able to carry in excess of 5000 people, possibly more than the SI Ferry Barbieri class. The trip might take less than and hour, possibly more than an hour 45 min, I'm not sure.
All those passengers gotta get moved, so maybe a specialized NJT bus line, or lines, to handle the passengers possibly to and from the NJCL. And a large parking garage for all the drive-ups would be a necesity, but that would require being placed close to an off shoot of the GSP or something, and that screams "git me" to the nimbys along the way.
<7> Finally, start calling around for the best deals on Sand Hogs and TBMs to start drilling a Lower Manhatten TC!
Well, that's my plan to get NEC and NJCL customers out of the Penn Tunnels, sorry for getting caught up in the ferry details, and hope it made some sense!
If you remember the fire at Penn Station back in late 1999, Amtrak trains ended at Newark and you were bussed from there, although PATH was certainly an option. Long term, I don't know.
My plan may have some nice spices to it. New Jersey Transit and the MTA can purchase Penn Station should Amtrak go belly-up. If rehab is necessary or in case of an attack, I would start building 2 new tubes to avoid any catastrophe. You just can't stop rail service into NYC. With 2 new tunnels, you would be ahead of the game.
NJ Senator Corzine ,NJT and the PANY-NJ and NY senator Clinton and Schumer all support building a new two tube tunnel. On weekends, they are running single track between the two penns due to tunnel rehab work.
As far as ending all trains at Newark Penn, I dont think PATH can handle all the traffic. Rememebr- they lost WTC so they can only run 7 cars due top platform lengths ont he 33rd St Line. Split servcie between PATH and Hoboken could work--perhaps send one branch NECL or NJCl to Hoboken and the other ends at Newark.
Either way look for massive gridlock on rail, bus, ferry.
So I guess the consensus is that there is no official contingency plan if the tunnels were to go out of service. I say big shame on our elected officials from NY, NJ, and PA, and AMTRAK, NJT, PATH and the Ferries.
There are only two tunnels into Penn Station....If I were in charge, I'd be more worried about a contingency plan, and much less about expanding service (e.g. secaucus transfer)
believe ir or not there is progress to a new tunnel! NJT, PANY-NK and the politicians have agreed it is needed and a study is planned. Goign a step further- the whoel NEC from Newark to NY needs four tracking. But- what can be done with Dock Bridge twin it?
Did anyone else see the picture on pg. 51 in the Metro edition of the NY News yesterday?
It shows two German made subway cars being unloaded out of the rear of a giant cargo jet at the Balyuan International Airport in China. The subway cars will run on the NO. 2 line in Guangzhou, Guangdong province.
The German built first diesel light rail car to be delivered to the Camden-Trenton light rail line (SNJLRTS) in Camden was flown from Berlin to Atlantic City last August. The three-section car was flown intact, but was disassembled and trucked from Atlantic City to Camden on three trailers and reassembled.
cool
Why the hell would they fly it? Wouldn't shipping it be a lot cheaper? It's not like they'll spoil in a week.
Bombardier is late for building them, and Guangzhou Metro was in such a hurry to open the line on time that Bombardier has to pay the cost to FLY them (2 sets of trains, 6 cars in each set) 6 TIMES.
See this for more details.
I meant the SNJLRT.
Actually, I think those might be Transrapid Maglev Cars. China has volunteered to be the guinea pig for that style maglev. Although I'd bet any amount of money that as soon as the Transrapid technicians are gone, they reverse engineer it, and produce their own 'indigenous' maglev that bears a striking resemblance to the transrapid system, and suddenly transrapid goes the way of the Alweg Monorail Company (who got screwwed by Japan in the 1960s, the Japanese basically stole the design from the German Alweg company, which had previously produced the Seattle world's fair monorail).
Either that, or something small will get screwwed up, since the system relies upon a computer to take data from a feedback circuit and adjust the height of the maglev accordingly. All of this while traveling 350+km/h just a few centimeters off the guideway. I can just see 400 or so chinese getting dropped onto the rather hard and unyielding guideway, only to have the maglev car come apart on them.
A much better system is that provided by the Halbach Array Maglev, no superconductors, no feedback circuits, no power needed to lift the car once it is moving, and fully automatic compensation for load changes. Possibly the best solution for HSR in the United States, since it offers very very high speeds, without all the supporting infrastructure that a similar TGV or NEC style line incurs.
Somebody in Germany must have gotten a deal with some An-124 provider, first the first NJT Diesel LRV for the SNJLRTS arrives by plane, now they're shipping the chinese their maglev set via plane!
Unless of course, those really are subway cars, I hate to admit it, but I don't get the times, and cannot see the picture, so I'm kinda winging it. And, in case I am wrong, I apologize for having wasted space, and would direct anyone intrested in maglevs, or some good old maglev bashing to Railroad.net's HSR Forum, right now there is a so-so discussion of the merits and problems of maglevs.
The picture was in the NY Sunday News, not the Times.
In the Metro edition that I bought here in PA, the picture was on pg.51, right across from The Justice Story.
This is the picture from hasea.com in China. As you nay think why Bombardier send the train by airplane, the reason is that Bombardier has delayed their delievery. Fortunately, only 2 sets of trains is needed to be sent as even though the opening data of Guangzhou Metro Line No.2 is opened on 12-29 others are built in China by know-how transfer.
That is very similiar to the NY News picture except that the News picture is B/W, the cars are not that far out of the plane, and more of the left wing of the plane is shown.
Long weekend translates into a long post which takes a long time to write so here goes. As usual, all car numbers refer to the first car unless noted otherwise.
Thursday 11/28
The word of the day for Thursday was DESERTED (this word of the day didn't make it into the subject line but the others did)
Take the Red Line (Breda 4019) to Union Station, which I found to be deserted. Hardly anyone was there and most of the people near gate F were waiting for people on arriving trains (people come from gate G). I picked up some reading material (holiday schedule, VRE brochure, etc) and at decided to go see if the train display was up and running. It wasn’t but while I was checking that, my train was called, so when I got back, I went to get on board. It was Acela Express 2254 (Trainset 20 2026-2029). They had a quiet car, so I sat there. Just like the station, the train was essentially deserted. Got to New York on time and went upstairs to find that the area around the departure board was not deserted. Went to the subway to discover that my MetroCard was expiring at the end of December and only had 1 dollar. Unfortunately, the subway station was not totally deserted and I had to wait to get the agent to transfer my one dollar and add another 15 to a new card. I find I always get the slowest agents when I don’t really want them, not to mention they don’t understand enough English to make these transactions go fast enough. Seems to me they need to be stricter when they make hiring decisions. Bought a fun pass and went through the turnstile with my suitcase. I didn’t feel like asking the agent to open the gate for me since she took forever and a day to transfer my money. Got on the E (R32 3640) and took that to Lex (that construction zone at the west end is a disaster, just wait until Sunday) and transferred to the 6 (R142A 7505). Had a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner at an Italian restaurant on the Upper East Side (no turkey) and went to bed. I did see D60HF 5509 on the M79.
Friday 11/29: National Railfan Day
The word of the day for Friday was SKIP
Somehow got up at 6:15 and dozed until 7:15, listening to Transit and Weather together every 10 minutes on the 8s. Unfortunately, a certain meteorologist didn’t predict the nicest whether, but then again, I guess he would be out of a job if he reported that it was going to be 80 degrees and sunny. Personally, a hearing the high for the day is 35 degrees is not the high point of my day. That said, left at about 8 to walk to 86th Street, where a train of R33s on the 4 passed as I waited for a 5 train to the Bronx. That came, and I got on (R142 7030). The new interior LED displays don’t work, they need to do them how they did it originally (with the 125 ST NEXT, not the THE NEXT STOP IS… thing). At 3rd Avenue, we got a skip to 180th although we were going to have stops at Intervale and Freeman. The conductor covered the automated announcements in the stations but didn’t change the computer, so it did announce “THIS IS JACKSON AVENUE” and so on. I wanted pictures at Simpson, so I got off at Intervale and took the next train (R142 6736 on the 2) to Simpson, where I got pictures of the 142s and the Redbirds coming around the curve at the north end of the station. Eventually got back on a 2 (R142 6686) and took it to Tremont, where I got a picture of the last 5 express coming around the curve. As soon as it left, I look and see a train of R33s signed for Dyre coming in on the northbound track, so I run through the crossover, only to just miss them. A train to 180th comes in (R33 9116) and I take that one stop, where I am discharged, to see the train I missed out of service on the middle track. I guess I shouldn’t have felt bad about missing that train. Yet another 5 came in after that (R142 6766) which I took up to Dyre. I changed ends (now in 6836). We left about 3 minutes late because there was some confusion over which crew was supposed to take the train (this was the 0933 out of Dyre). Took that train to Gun Hill, where I took pictures of trains going by (missed getting a shot of Redbirds, I would have had them if I had gotten off at Baychester) and got back on R142 7000 to 180th. Hoped to get this 5 up to 238th that goes thru 180th at 0959 according to the schedule on the MTA site although it didn’t show. Got on a 2 (R142 6411) which I was going to take to Gun Hill but at Pelham, I saw a garbage train. Turned out to be R127s EP001 and EP002, so I photographed those, and waited in the wonderful weather for the next train. It eventually showed and I got on (R142 6601). At Gun Hill, we got a skip to 241st, so I decided to stay. This conductor turned off the automated announcements after 219th. At Wakefield, the train turned back almost immediately. I was in 6604 and took that to 238th, where I waited 10 minutes for the Bx16. While there, I got some pictures of the Bee Line buses in the area. I got TMC RTS 8894, which I took to the last stop at 205th Street. We had a student driver, so it was slow going at times, although a nice trip. There was some snow on the ground in Woodlawn Cemetery and Van Courtlandt Park. At 205th, I went back into the subway and got on the D (R68 2712).
Took the D to Fordham where I walked over to the Jerome El. A train was in the station, so I got on (R62 1340, 5th car) although at Bedford Park the train was held and I made it to the first car (1336). The trip to Woodlawn took some time since they wound up with an extra train and had to pull it out (R142As 7676-7685) and then there was congestion. Once I got to Woodlawn, I got the ability to say I’ve been to every stop in the Bronx (one borough down, 4 to go). Got pictures, then got back on 1336 and took it to Bedford Park Boulevard, where I got out and walked over to Train Dude Land. Got pictures from the bridge over the yard and of a Neoplan Artic for Bee Line. Missed a train when I got back to the platform so I had a few cookies while waiting for the next one, during which time a train of R142As went by. On the trip on the 4 to 149th Street (R62 1416), I saw one train of Redbirds, although it may have been the same set I had seen at 86th Street earlier (4 hours difference almost between sightings, someone can figure out if they were the same if they want). I decided to make a quick trip down to South Ferry to see Courtlandt and then go have lunch. Got on the 2 (R142 6565) with a very slow T/O (although I am convinced the R142 played a part in this). A 1 train left 42nd Street as we came in. It made the stop at 34th and was leaving as we arrived. We passed it before 14th where we saw another 1 pull out as we came in. The 2 left Chambers about 90 seconds before the leading 1 arrived. I got on (R62A 2196) and took it to South Ferry. There were people in the back half of the train, who had bewildered faces on as the train left with them still on it. While we waited for the next train, a lady asked if “this was the uptown platform”, explaining how she wanted to go to Chambers and wasn’t sure where to go. I told her it was and explained how there was a loop. Got on the next 1 (R62A 2285) which I took to Rector. We got stuck behind the first 1 which had to wait for the starting lights and missed a connection with a 3 as a result. Got the express (R142 6371) to Penn Station where I had a very quick lunch at Sbarro’s.
After lunch, it was off to the Flushing Line. To get there, I took the 3 to Times Square (R62A 1905) and then got on a local 7 to Queensboro Plaza (R36 WF 9629). At Queensboro, I looked around for some other railfans who I told that I would be out there and got pictures of an R40 slant on the N and R40Ms on the N (including the lone R42 on the N). After deciding the other railfans weren’t there, I got on an express to Willets Point (R36 WF 9644). This was one of my best rides on the Flushing Express ever. It was fast and had the Redbird feel we won’t have for much longer. On this ride, I saw someone taking pictures at 52nd Street (now about 2 PM), was it someone on this board? I took pictures at Corona Yard, then got on a train to Flushing (R62A 1701). At Flushing, I got on a train of Redbirds which I took to 103rd, but I was switching cars most of the time. At 103rd, I got a picture of two R62As neck and neck heading to Flushing with the train I had just gotten off in the background (a year ago it was three Redbirds in a picture :’(). A I ended up getting a picture of a Redbird speeding by on the express next to an R62A, then got on R36 WF 9571 to 90th, where I got even more pictures. After 90th, it was 2153 to 74th, 2114 to 52nd, 2090 to 46th, and finally, 9609 to 33rd. Of course, I got pictures at each location. At 33rd, it was freezing (at least that unnamed meteorologist gave an accurate forecast, even though it wasn’t a very nice one). After I was almost finished there and about to go back, I saw Flushing bound trains signed as expresses going by on the local. The automatic in the middle of the station on the middle track also changed to red. What was going on? Three trains went by without stopping as well for Manhattan bound, including one empty, two with passengers, making some people on the platform rather mad. Eventually, I got on a train to Queensboro Plaza (R36 WF 9579). As we arrived at Queensboro, a train of R40 slants arrived on the other platform on the N, so I took those to Lexington (4352). It was quite a ride and better than the last one through the 60th Street tube in a slant, when I must have gotten a slow T/O, because Friday’s run was much faster. At Lex, I got on the 6 to go back to where I was staying (R142A 7241). On the walk back to where I was staying, I saw a D60HF on the M102 (can’t recall the number).
Saturday 11/30
Word of the Day for Saturday was BUSY
Didn’t ride anywhere in the morning but after lunch, I had a little adventure. Went to get Bill Newkirk’s calendar (Bill, I assume you got my e-mail) at the Transit Museum store, so I took the 6 to Grand Central (R142A 7456). Although the museum didn’t have the calendar, I got an umbrella, the 4 and 6 beanie bears (which are very cute), several maps, and the number plate from car 7661 (an R22 I believe). Called 411 which didn’t have Penn Books in their directory from a pay phone. Not wishing to chance having the store closed on Sunday when I went to catch my train back home, I shuttled over to Times Square (R62A 1986) and then took the 1 to Penn Station (R62A 2230, 5th car). Found the bookstore (so much for 411’s reliability) and found out they didn’t have the calendar either. So it was off to the Met on the M4 (RTS 8983). I missed one M4 because the stop is in the middle of the block and you don’t really have any way of knowing that, but that is another matter. I just wish the terminal stops were where the bus map says they are. I also found out there was no stop on 81st Street and Madison (I like the limited but the M4 isn’t on weekends). Later, I went to see Les Miserables so I took the 6 (R142A 7492, 2nd car) to Grand Central and shuttled over to Times Square (R62A 1986, anyone realize I like this car and some of you already know I am not a Mets fan so that isn’t the connection). Excellent show although I’ve seen better. On the walk to the subway, I saw D60HF 1070 on the M79 with LED signs. After the show, I got 6063 on the M104 although I took a cab over to the East Side (other members of the party didn’t want to wait for the crosstown).
Sunday 12/1
The word of the day for Sunday was PACKED
Does the word of the day surprise anyone considering it is one of the busiest travel days of the year? Went to Penn Station on the 6 (R142A 7267, 9th car). At 51st, I changed for the E, which I heard come in with just a few more feet to go on the escalator. I picked up my suitcase (which is on wheels) and the shopping bag with 7668’s number plate and ran down the escalator. By the time I got there, the doors had opened, but I ran around the wooden supports, people yielded to me seeing I had every intention to get on the train, and I made it on to the train (R32 3568) and situated myself at the railfan window for the trip to 34th Street. There were a few rough starts out of the stations but we did 30 around the curve entering 50th Street, the way the subway should be run! At Penn Station, things were crowded. I got the new HBLR and NJT schedules and went to the Acela waiting room. I got there at about 11:10 for a noon train. At about 11:35, red caps started taking people to the platform. I asked the waiting room attendant what track it was on, he told me (12), went down one level, and found a staircase, so I was there before the train was. Took the train (Acela Express 2251, Trainset #6 2030-2031) which was sold out to Washington, where we arrived on time. My arriving on the platform when I did didn’t get me the window seat I wanted and I did have to share (as did everyone), but it was still nice. No quiet car this time. This is this third time I got that trainset and there are now footprints (white) all over the vestibules and the bathroom doors still don’t lock! Got to Washington, saw the model train at Union Station (same Norwegian display as its been the past few years), and took the Metro (Breda 3227 with the same operator I had on Thursday) home.
Betcha didn't know that an expired or almost-expired MetroCard can be traded in at an MEM (or MVM, I think)! Just tell the machine you want to add money to the card and it'll offer to replace it with a new one.
I thought that was just the original MEM at 34th Street.
No, that one allowed trade-ins no matter what. That feature has been disabled, but the machines will still trade in expired cards.
IS that really true? And me like a Nassau hole have been throwing them out when I forget about one and they happened to expire.
I don't want to sound stupid, but what's a MEM (as opposed to a MVM MetroCard Vending Machine)?
An MEM takes only plastic/no cash, does not sell single rides and is much smaller than an MVM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Even if you didn't know about automatic trade-ins at machines, I'm surprised you didn't know that any S/A can trade-in any MetroCard until one year past the expiration date. After that, it's lost whatever value it had.
Pure stupidity on my part I guess. I only threw out a "good" card twice. Once it expired with $1.50, the other time like $3.00, or something, so no big deal, but it could have been 3 subway rides.
I knew, it just didn't consider my card to be "almost expired" so I wasn't able to get the machine to do it.
Oh, I guess over a month before expiration is too early. On 12/1 the machine probably would have done the trade-in.
I knew, the MVM just didn't consider my card to be "almost expired" so I wasn't able to get the machine to do it.
On Friday at about 4 PM or so, I was at 33rd Street. The automatic in the middle of the station on the express track went to red and several express trains went through on the local track without stopping. Also, 2 or 3 trains heading to Manhattan skipped the station, including one that was running light. What was going on?
No complaints from me, I got plenty of pictures of the passing trains!
I saw someone take a picture of the train I was on at about 2 PM on Friday as it passed 52nd Street on the 7. The lead car of this Flushing bound express was 9644 and I was at the railfan window.
Does anyone know how many of Amtrak's E60CP locomotives are still in service? I know almost nothing about these things, but I was under the impression that some are still being used. Thanks for any info.
Frank Hicks
Let's see, the number is somewhere under 10 and they are mostly used from between NYP and PHL. I know that 600, 601, 609, 607, 605, 610 and 603 are definitly operating.
I see them very often in Penn Station, #601-609 are still running...matter of fact, I saw them at New Brunswick and Penn Station on Saturday. Question is, why weren't they retired sooner, all of this while the AEM-7s are all over the place?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Third Avenue Elevated
Even with all the AEM's Amtrak still has shortages of electric locomotives. That is why most long haul trains have the power change at Philly. Furthermore, the E60's with their 6 axles have more tractive effort for starting heavy long haul trains.
E60's are beasts!
There is also something to do with the brakes that the AEM's don't have but the E60's do. Mayhap it has to do with Roadrailers or something (but that program ended...)
Yeah, but the TE on the E60 drops like a rock above 15mph. by 30, it's no better than the HHP-8, by 60, it's pretty close to 1/2 the HHP-8's.
Anyway, the E-60's were always crap from day one - poor tracking, obsolete technology, ugly as hell, and not very reliable. My guess is Amtrak would have dumped the units if not for the current motor shortage. NJT dumped theirs almost as fast as they arrived...
The E60, in it's current incarnation as the E60MA, is all but dead.
The original E60CP was basically a western coal hauler regeared for 125mph operation. The 125 mph operation thing didn't work out, they had enormous truck hunting problems, and were regeared again, this time dropping them to 90mph. It woudln't be until the AEM7 a few years later that 125mph running on the NEC would be realized. The E60CP can be recognized by it's large water tank located under the body between the trucks.
At some point the E60CPs gained a HEP generator, and became E60CHs, which, so far as I can tell, are identical to the E60CPs. There must be some difference, perhaps somebody else can shed some light on that.
But amtrak never really seemed to like the E60, it had screwwed up the 125mph thing, and required them to go overseas to find a replacement. I know that with the coming of the AEM7 Amtrak unloaded tons of E60CHs and CPs on NJT, which used them on their NEC and New Jersey Coast Line trains. Today one or two of these remain, I know one is slated for a New Jersey rail museum, whether it will wear NJT or Amtrak colors I don't know.
There are only 11 E60s left in service, they have been renumbered from the 900 series to the 600 series. The last E60CHs to go were 620 and 621, which were used in work service, and, until their deaths sometime around the summer of '01, were the twelfth and thirteenth E60s left on the property. 620 has had it's pantographs removed, and looks a mess, 621 is missing a whole axle and traction motor. Apparantly both are sitting in Bear, Delaware, near the Wilmington Amtrak station.
Now all that is left are the 11 E60MAs, numbered 600 through 610. The E60MA elminated the water tank, and placed all the HEP gear down there. These thing still see very active service, often they pull the long distance trains from florida and so on up to New York through the Penn Tunnels. The HHP-8 was supposed to allow them to be retired, but those have all the problems the Acelas have, and somebody (wisely) decided to hang onto the E60MAs just a bit longer. I see them frequently because I go to Drexel University, which has several buildings that overlook the 30th St Station/Race St Engine facility, where usually two or three E60MAs can be found hanging about.
A few months ago, before Drexel loaded on the work, and I got scared off the Engine Yard, I took some close up photos of E60MA 608 waiting for a northbound florida train, which i posted in my rather paltry webshots account. I'm sure that ChuChuBob may have newer pictures, and I know they're still operating. You may also want to check the Amtrak Photo Archive
, there are lots of pictures of E60CHs and E60MAs there.
I actually have a video with the E60CP's for NJT on the North Jersey Coast Line. This question has been bugging me for some time so maybe you guys can help me with this. When NJT aquired the E60CP's, they were usually hauling the Comet II coaches and cabs. How come I never saw these locos pushing these cars? Weren't these locos capable of push/pull service?
no the E60 were not setup for push pull the throttle is more than 8 notches for exsample on E60's , and also resets and pan up/down did not work from cab cars.
Thanks for the highly detailed info.
I'm sure that ChuChuBob may have newer pictures...
#600 last Sunday
Does anyone have photos of the area at Lex/63rd that was supposed to be used for the 2nd Ave Subway? I've tried to find pics of it but no dice.
I doubt any pics exist. You looking for a detail of it?
Mainly pics, but anything is fine.
I may know a thing or two about it. Ask your question.
The station itself, behind the wall, is bare concrete. It is lit with flourescent fixtures hanging from the ceiling, and would be usable as is (it would look bland though and it'd require signage). I got a good look at it in 1997 when the door to the finished part was open. A laid up R32 N train was sitting on the track.
I have a related question. What happens to the existing 63rd/Lex (F) station once the 2nd Ave line opens. It seems like the intention was to make the station a cross-platform transfer, but to make that happen would mean tearing down a good portion of the existing station. Will the platforms be turned into islands or will they just build coridors between the existing station and a new 2nd Ave/Bwy platform?
:-) Andrew
The existing platforms ARE island platforms. The "wall" is just a facade and can easily be removed. It is only about a foot or two from the other edge, against which is the other track.
Then it's interesting that they bothered to do anything with it. The orange brick is the major defining feature of the station.
:-) Andrew
I've been in the station shell, about five years ago on a Transit Museum tour. Took some photos but I was only carrying a little fully-automatic point'n'shoot so the pics didn't turn out well enough to scan. It's basically an empty shell, full staircases and mezzanine area, provisions for escalators, all in raw concrete.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey guys...(Doug, Thurston, Lou, et. all)...
I am going to be in NYC for Xmas week....I need a railfan trip :) Any ideas?? You guys going to be up for it??
-Jeremy
If I'm in the city for WCBS work, I'd be pleased to join in. We can talk Transit and Weather Together.
At this point I have the week following off, to watch Justin break his new toys, but I would be happy to take a day off the week of Christmas ... maybe Monday 12/23 or Thursday 12/26 or even Friday 12/27. Probably be going to Binghamton that week-end, so for me it would need to be a week day.
I only have Xmas/New Year eves off as well as the actual day. I can not get any days off until Feb (though I am greaving that they have to give me my floating holiday when I want it, they still owe me election day).
I would love to join you guys any time after 4pm (or meet at either queens plaza at 4pm when I get out).
Lou, don't you get Monday, January 20? It's MLK Day, and more important, my Mom's 81st birthday!! Our mutual employer, the Board- er, Department of Ed still allows us that. But I get a creeping sensation Hizzoner would like to strip us non-pedagogs of some of our paid holidays. True, that would STILL be better than layoffs-
In any event, I get off work at 4:00 in downtown Brooklyn, and with no after-schoool program to have to retrieve anyone from, am available for railfanning that strangely fragmented week (Work Mon 23; off Tue 24 and Wed 25; work Thu 26 and Fri 27). Rush-hour trains are considerably less crowded that week, especially to the outer boroughs. But the touristy areas of Manhattan are murder. The early sunset makes for some great skyline views if it's clear out.
"... Monday, January 20? It's MLK Day, and more important, my Mom's 81st ..."
Would you believe my mom will be 80 on Jan 21st ?
Peggy and I will be hitting the metals on Saturday, Dec. 21, starting at about 9AM, Penn Station, for a scheduled 9 hour tour.
wayne
I'll probably be at The Point that week-end doing a turn at "Winter Fest" there 5 to 9 PM ... burrr ... that is if I thaw out from this Saturday night.
I'm at BERA with Santa on the Trolley...
Ditto for me... hopefully it won't decide to snow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will be at BERA on 22nd
Peter the Pole
I'll be with you two in spirit.
Here's something very strange that I saw when I was walking along Fresh Pond Road. For those of you who know Ridgewood, there is a set of tracks that runs straight through the neighborhood. It's usually for freights, but they're somehow connected with LIRR tracks that run through Glendale, and also connects to Fresh Pond Yard. My question is, why the hell would IRT Subway Cars be in a BMT train yard? What the hell does Fresh Pond yard have that these subway cars need to go there?
I've spotted this today at 5:00 P.M., at Fresh Pond Road and Myrtle Av.. Right there I saw these 3 R142 subway cars seperated(single car units) on the elevated track. Although I believe there was more than that, I could only see those 3. I really wish I had my camera to see this rare sighting. They were just sitting there all day!
For those of you who know anything about why these R142's came to my area, feel free to answer.
Looks like these 5 cars are ready to be delivered into the system. 10 Cars were shipped in the last day or so. I would assume that in addition to Cars 7121-25, 7116-20 are also here.
Fresh Pond Yard is the Freight Yard that you saw them in, not the M Line Yard.
Cars from upstate NY are delivered by freight to Queens, unloaded in Fresh Pond, and travel on their own wheels to Linden Yard. NYCT picks them up from there for delivery to the Bronx.
-Stef
Looks like these 5 cars are ready to be delivered into the system. 10 Cars were shipped in the last day or so. I would assume that in addition to Cars 7121-25, 7116-20 are also here.
...and you know what happens when you assume.
6896-6900 came down with 7121-7125 on Sunday Night.
(Read your e-mail Stef!) 8-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Oops!. I got ahead of myself. Haven't seen either of those sets on this end here. Will report their arrival if they come through.
-Stef
HEY!!!! WE MUST HAVE BEEN A BLOCK AWAY FROM EACHOTHER HAHAHAHA i was wishin i had my camera too lololol
i was on the corner of genovese on myrtle ave when i saw them, took me a sec to realize they were subway cars but small world aint it!!
Maybe they use the freight line to transport the subway cars, its not uncommon for subway cars to go via "out of palce" tracks to arrive on NYCT trackage/property. This is what I think but sorry, this probably is not the dfinite or complete answer.
Welcome the newborns, 7123, 7124,& 7125 to our city!
Saw 8262-65 and 8282-85 heading over the Willy B at aound 8:15pm on Monday heading to Piken Yard. I then say 8262-65 @ Braodway Junction, waiting to get back inside the Yard.
I do not know if the onec inbetween are on the TA Grounds yet, i will look more next Monday when I am @ ENY for my job.
Robert
Lots of days I find myself needing to do some grocery shopping on the way home from work, so I get off the Market Frankford line at 40th Street and walk to the grocery store at 40th and Walnut. Then I walk with my groceries down to the 40th Street trolley portal to catch the 13. The distance is just a little longer than I really like to walk when loaded down with groceries, yet there is not even a bus that runs the whole way from the MFL station to the trolley portal. The stretch of 40th street between Market and Baltimore is dense with retail, restaurant, and entertainment businesses. I think it would be a great idea to have a frequent circulator of some sort running a loop that would conveniently shuttle people between the two rail stops. I think a trolley loop would be a great idea since there are already tracks on most of this part of 40th Street. (This may have been part of the Philadelphia Trolley Coalition's University City circulator trolley proposal, but I don't know.) I'd even be happy with another LUCY bus route...I should think U Penn would have an interest in this. I think there's a need for something. I just think it's odd that such a busy corridor has such poor transit.
Mark
Never let SEPTA's ineptitude surprise you.
That sounds like a great idea, the tracks and wires are already there! At least I think so......
Chuck Greene
This morning I had a treat while riding the N train to school, it was rerouted over the Manny B. It was nice going over the bridge on the N (even though it was an R68), it felt like home to me. Then at canal street, they annouced that it was going express! I unfortunately couldn't stay on, I had a test. I was so disapointed, I was like, "why couldn't this happen tomorrow!" but it was nice while it lasted.
Shouldn't they have announced it was going express before it went over the Manhattan Bridge, skipping all the stops in lower Manhattan?
Announcement was probably made at DeKalb Ave.
more like announcement in Pacific St, the N probably skipped DeKalb
Nice while it lasted? Hell, you should be celebrating to beat the band. You know what? If I happened to be your teacher and you told me that story I would have told you that you were a fool for not riding the express because I would've been more than happy to give you a make-up exam. Then, again, since your teacher is not a Sea Beach man like we are, he probably wouldn't know what the hell he was missing.
Too bad it wasn't a train of slants or good old R-32s.
Having the train go express isn't nearly as important as having it go over the bridge. The Motingue Tunnel is a bad ride for anyone going north of Canal, with SEVEN extra stops and lots of two mile per hour curves (though the tunnel itself is better than the bridge). Going express on Broadway would save just FOUR stops through Times Square, and that's on straight track. As a matter of fact, the train only skips six stops on 4th Avenue now, and that's on straight track.
Well actually the Broadway express starts at Dekalb Av since it does skip 7 stops by going straight to Canal St via bridge then skips 5 more stops in Manhattan [4 on the W] so 12 stations skipped on the Q and 11 on the W.
For N riders, its a big deal if the train makes a unexpected express runs since people who are not affected would have a nice treat and really save some time skipping the 11 stations it normally stops at. The N only skips 6 stops b/c it was designed that way and it turns off after 59 St, its not the same N we know of from the past but its return may come in 1 1/2 years. And BTW, you mean south of Canal St.
Actually, as the tracks are arranged now, the continuous express runs all the way from 59th in Brooklyn to 57th in Manhattan, with express stops at 59th, 36th, Pacific, (not DeKalb,) Canal, 14th, 34th, 42nd, and 57th. From south to north, the express has a merge with the West End, a merge with the Brighton (after DeKalb), and a diverge to the north side of the bridge (currently closed); the local has a merge with the West End, a merge with the Brighton, and a diverge to Nassau. There are also a handful of switches between local and express.
I'm sure many N passengers get off at 36th, Pacific, and DeKalb to transfer to bridge trains. I assume that most passengers who remain on the N are trying to get to the 7-8 bypassed stops (or perhaps to Prince or 8th, since transferring at Canal is a pain). To them, being sent over the bridge is a most unwelcome surprise. It's also an unwelcome surprise to anyone waiting at any of those 7-8 bypassed stations, especially those who need specifically the N, since now they have a longer gap between trains than usual.
Then throw in all the slow speed orders like after Dekalb Av, the not so fast Montague and the notorious slowdown at City Hall, lucky for me, most places I have to go I almost never have to ride the local unless I voluntarily do so. You're right, transferring at Canal is a real pain if you are trying to go from the exp to the local. If they are going to Prince or 8 St, I'd rather take the exp to 14 St then go back to the Brooklyn bound side and catch the local, that looks more sensible than goin through the torture in lower Manhattan.
So ride a bridge train. My point is that, by the time the N reaches DeKalb, most of its passengers specifically want a tunnel train. Sending their train express doesn't help them -- it forces them to get off and wait for the local behind it. How would you feel if you were trying to get to Whitehall to catch a ferry?
And am I the only railfan who finds sharp curves exhilirating?
(And am I the only railfan who finds sharp curves exhilirating?)
Perhaps. To me and most, there is nothing like a long, straight express taken at 40 plus miles per hour, especially if you have a seat and need some sleep.
Like the Sea Beach of memory. There was nothing like seeing a Triplex roar down 4th Avenue in Brooklyn whizzing by stations and picking up speed at each bypassed stop. That was exhilirating.
Ditto for the Broadway express sprint on a train of R-32s.
Of course, CPW was an express race track when the R-10s were still around.
I'd move to South Dakota if that's all I found exciting.
I suppose all the filthy rats in that rodent infested hole called the Montague Tunnel is also very exhilirating, too? Well, if they make the N a permanent express, people would learn in time that they must take the rancid R to get where they are going. And, no, I don't find those screeching turns anything but a turnoff. Sorry to disagree with you bro but that's the way it is. I only wish I could have been in New York to enjoy some real nostalgia with my train doing what it was designed to do=====be a Broadway Express.
Wayne does. The more screeching, the merrier.:)
That Broadway express run is pretty swift. Even the R-68s on the Q moved at a brisk pace during my visit in October.
It seems like Broadway is a "fast track" as I call it. The Broadway express trains seems to gain speed as fast as the IRT or faster than the other trunk lines with express trains
Well Larry, four's better than none. Besides, if we Sea Beach brigands ask for the moon we might get a piece of the rock. Express baby, the Sea Beach needs to be an express as it was designed to be and was until the TA shafted my line. Anyway, I dream big. Have a great day big guy.
Oh well, maybe another time [maybe in a GO] you could ride a "express N" in Manhattan and over bridge but come 2004, it should once again be the norm. I'm sure a certain someone[you know who you are] got to the thread already ;-).
Yes Flatbush 41 I know who I am and I did get to the post. I liked it. I even told him he should have rode the express through and ask for a make-up test, then realized I wasn't his teacher and the guy might not understand.
Fred, I would have probably rode it just to get that rare moment of the N not being called Never. From what you're saying, of course YOU would have rode it and come to school late and come up with a excuse to get a make up[I would too ;-)] but not everyone, of course the teacher probably won't, has the mind of railfans like us.
Don't worry. If all goes well, the N will run like that regularly in 2 years.
And if it comes to pass, Fred will be turning somersaults and leaping handsprings, all the while saying:
I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW IT!!!!! I KNEW IT!!!!!
I don't know how I would look doing it but I would certainly give it the old college try if this did become permanent. The Sea Beach Express again. Wow!!!!!
Is this a sign of things to come? Will the fabled "Sea Beach" express rise like the pheonix out of the ashes? Will #4 Sea Beach Fred be able to ride his favorite train on the BMT express tracks sooner rather than later? Was this a test run? The T/A, have they gone crazy? We'll never know, but it is very interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Has the TA ever been sane?:) They've had more hairbrained schemes than Ralph Kramden.
If the N does go back to being an express via bridge where it rightfully belongs, Fred will be turning handsprings while Bob will be rolling his eyes and shaking his head.:)
Ah, who give a hoot in hell about Bob. Let him get used to it. Besides I'll be laughing my ass off because one of his Brightons would be consigned to permanent duty as a Local. That would be rich.
Bob would have the last laugh, I'm afraid. There would still be a Brighton express. Of course, you two could debate it to your hearts' content.:)
My blood is beginning to get stirred real good. Am I just setting myself up for another fall? That is what worries me. Let me tell you this, if the Sea Beach was made into an express again I think I would hop on the first plane and ride it as fast as I could. It would really be something special for me.
Well Fred, that would be interesting to ride a N Sea Beach express since I wasn't even born for the NX, not to break the bubble but I do not see a regular service express N on the Sea Beach in the future but the Manny B express run looks more like a reality come 2004.
I hate to nurst your bubble. It was only a temporary change, but it might be a test run for the real thing. If they should start to run the Sea Beach Line train express on at least a portion of its run on a regular basis, I'll let you know.
#3 West End Jeff
Lets see how fast Fred comes down to NY, he'll take the Concord for an even speedier trip if he finds out the N runs express in Manhattan again and the long shot Sea Beach express makes a return ;-).
Knowing #4 Sea Beach Fred, he would take the Concorde to New York if it was available to ride on the express "N" and the long shot Sea Beach express. Maybe he'd even take a flight on a "Blackbird" spy plane if they were running the "Triplexs" on the Sea Beach Line as an express run on a fan trip.
#3 West End Jeff
You got that straight guys. I'd come as fast as I could--even if I had to commandere a plane myself. Keep your fingers crossed that my hopes are not in vain.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that your hopes aren't in vain either.
#3 West End Jeff
I owe you a call Jeff. I'll try and touch base with you tomorrow. And let's plan on next spring to get together in Coney Island.
I hope that I'll meet you at Coney Island in the spring. The "Cyclone" is expected to open up on Sunday April 13, 2003. In the meantime, let's hope that there is no transit strike. That is one thing New York City doesn't need.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Fred, you can always say a rosary.:)
I hate to burst your bubble. It was only a temporary change, but it might be a test run for the real thing. If they should start to run the Sea Beach Line train express on at least a portion of its run on a regular basis, I'll let you know.
#3 West End Jeff
You'd be saying to the pilot, "Can't you make this damn plane go any faster?":)
Just think: you're at Times Square and a s/b N pulls in on the express track. You elbow your way on, saying "Outta my way! This is Sea Beach Fred's train!" The train zips along Broadway, blowing past 28th and 23rd and, after pausing at Union Square, 8th and Prince. As the train dives down and curves into the Canal St. bridge station, you get more and more excited. You can't wait to be on the bridge again. Then at about mid-point, you see it - a rat!!! You yell, "Hey! What are you doing here? Get back in that Montague St. tunnel where you belong!!!" The train skips DeKalb and after stopping at Pacific, gets up a good head of steam down 4th Ave. Then all of a sudden, you see what appears to be a person ahead on the trackbed with a devilish grin. Yikes - it's Hillary!!! You pound on the cab door and yell, "Don't stop! Don't stop!!" Just like that, she vanishes into thin air. ARRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! Soon enough, you're out on the Sea Beach's open cut, ducking through tunnels and marveling at renovated stations. Then the train reaches Stillwell Ave. Wow, they've really fixed the place up! You disembark and make a beeline for the Cyclone, but it's not there!!!!! You let out a bloodcurdling yell and are about to singlehandedly demolish the boardwalk when you feel someone shaking you. You yell "No!! No!! NO!!!", then wake up in a cold sweat to find Linda shaking you. You start telling her all about it and she just rolls her eyes.
Steve, I don't know what I'd do without you. That was absolutely a gem. I'm even printing it to show to Linda. I think she will come to two conclusions:
1. How does this guy from Colorado know my husband as well as I do, and.....
2. Someday she will have to meet you to see if you are real or just a figment of her imagination.
LOL
Have you told Linda I was at Shea Stadium on the day you married her?:)
No, damn it. I forgot. I will tell her as soon as I get off this computer.
I almost forgot: in that dream sequence, that N train is routed via the express track through the Sea Beach open cut due to a stalled train. Too good to be true, ain't it?:)
Too good to be true. Yes, that's about it. The only thing missing from that dream I was supposed to have was when I saw that rat near Canal Street that turned out to be Hillary. That would have made it almost perfect. Perfect would have been the Sea Beach making a splat of that rodent.
That rat was on the bridge. He was hopping from tie to tie.
Check out this neat site with photos of the Moscow Metro. Using a fisheye lens is a great way to get the whole view of the station and feel like you're standing there. This person does a very good job with the stations she photographed. With absolutely stunning stations like this, no wonder Moscow has the world's busiest subway, I'm sure many people would ride it solely for the views.
Is that a train station or an art gallery? Unbelieveable.
think 'imperial monument'. Stalin had this built with essentially an unlimited budget--slave labor. Today, we in Ca have a very small "art in transit stations" program, as a "frill". The priorities were clearly different. (You give ME his budget you'll have Second Ave up and running in three years. 'Course NIMBYs will be cleaning up nuclear plants in the hinterlands, and factories which produce low MDBF cars will be turned into 'reeducation' centers.
think 'imperial monument'. Stalin had this built with essentially an unlimited budget--slave labor.
True, but by all appearances the system is being superbly maintained after 60+ years.
I think the builder of this system in his later years took off his shoe in the UN and banged the shoe on a table.
Nikita Khrushchev banged his shoe at the UN. The Moscow Metro was slave-built under Stalin.
Mark
"In the 1930s Khrushchev was promoted from one political position to the next, until finally, in 1935, he became second in command of the Moscow Communist Party. In Moscow, Khrushchev oversaw construction of much of Moscow's subway system, and in 1939 he became a full member of the Politburo."
Whatever the case, you gotta admit the communist propaganda paintings and scluptures RULE.
I need to ask my Russian friend if we can go to Moscow together, I would spend the entire trip photographing this work of art that doubles as a subway.
>>>Is that a train station or an art gallery? Unbelieveable. <<<
True, and a wonderful website to boot. I wish she had pictures of their equipment, though.
Peace,
ANDEE
That third shot was really psychedelic man !!
Was this camera film or electronic ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I emailed her and she said its a Nikon digital camera. She put a fisheye lens extension and took 4 photos at 90 degrees and Photoshopped them together, so what we are looking at is a 360 degree view of the station. Very effective.
Very nice site....
But... When I checked the rest of *this* site, I could not find any pictures of the Moscow subway. Now there is a project for sallamalla to tackle. See if he can smuggle out railfanwindowpictures without KBG catch him!
:0 Elias
There's no pictures from Moscow on this site. Sorry!
(Although I have a bunch from Bernard Chatreau he might let me use...)
We will just have to go and get some :)
Simon
Swindon UK
If it's legal to take them, I might be able to get some St Petersburg metro photos next year. I went to the London office of Intourist yesterday to enquire about our proposed trip - and was astonished to find that the office was about ten feet x ten feet, staffed by one (helpful) person! And this is the famous Intourist - how are the mighty fallen.
If it's legal to take them, I might be able to get some St Petersburg metro photos next year.
It was legal when my younger daughter was there in 1998... don't know if the rules have changed since then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems as of December 4 the photos are no longer on the site. If you go the home page, the links are there, but a "not on this server" pops up. A shame.
Working now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The section of this site covering transit systems around the world doesn't have any pictures from Russia. Presumably this is because of the authorities' historically robust attitude towards any kind of dissent, leading to visitors not trying photography there. Do we know whether this has changed in the period since the end of the Soviet Union? It would be really good to have some Moscow (and St Petersburg) pictures on this site.
I would imagine that they would encourage photography because it would show off their system to the world and possibly bring in tourist $$$ to the city. I know that looking at these photos has now made me want to go to Moscow some time in the future.
Received this form Joe Brennan:
Re,
PM > What I got from the correspondence was that he didn't feel it was worth
PM > his effort to go out there himself.
I did go out though. The two photos at street level were really taken
on site in March 2002. I walked all the way from Euclid Ave to the
cemetery at 80 St, looking for any sign of grates or hatches.
As far as Grant Ave, you see numerous gratings, but then there's nothing besides normal manholes and a Con Ed grating in front of the cemetery. It's quite a difference.
Post this if you want.
Joe
That settles it as far as I'm concerned. Not that I ever really believed there was anything there anyway. Otherwise Joe would have had something on it.
To me it just means any subway gradings that were built were covered over a long time ago.
To me it just means any subway gradings that were built were covered over a long time ago.
Yes, aliens from the planet Marklar covered up the marklar over the 76th Street marklar a long marklar ago.
And I thought it was just NYC installing new sidewalks.
Can someone post a link to the original post on this topic so I know what you're talking about?
What Does Joe Brennan Say About 76th Street?
and
76th Street Redux - PRO and CON
then follow the threads.
What he really needs to see is the original April 1at post on the subject. Original Post
: ) Elias
Subway historian David Rogoff prepared a track plan of the 76 St station area at an unknown date, but it was probably not published before it appeared in the Bulletin of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association in July 2001. It shows both the original route to 76 St and the later route to the el via Grant Ave
Just to clear up a point here. Dave Rogoff dated the map May 12,1965 for pages 1 and 2, June 2,1965 for page 3 and June 11, 1965 for page 4. He prepared it for an ERA Fantrip on the IND Rail Polisher. (This was a regularly scheduled work train of R 1-9's that traveled the system late at night for the purpose of running over seldom used switches and bits of track. I've had my copy for 37 years. The map never appeared in The Bulletin but was distributed to those who rode the trip and additional copies were sold at ERA Meetings by Arthur Lonto.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for posting some background clarification about this map Larry. I have had my copy of Rogoff's IND track map for almost as long (35 years), having picked it up at an ERA NY Division meeting. One thing about Rogoff's original map, was that he wrote a note on the page where the track layout beyond Euclid Ave. through 76th St. station was diagrammed. It basically said (map is at home, I'm on the computer at work and quoting from memory): tracks beyond bulkhead never built, proposed only. Whether or not any structure in whole or part has ever been built, that note should never have been deleted from this page when it was put up on the internet. The map is a secondary source that has become an unofficial reference for those interested in NY subway history and development. Deleting Rogoff's note misleads from his original purpose, since, as we can see (and post ourselves) from the various 76th st. threads, this altered page has been used as backup for opinions that the entire structure beyond the bulkhead was completed.
Ed: Dave was very precise in his preparation of historical materials. For completeness sake he included several items that were planned but never built but was careful to them as such. I wasn't aware that the version of the map on the internet had deleted to refernce to "never built" as I was working off my original.
How's the weather out. Must be mighty cold.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Is there a link to that map?
Is there a link to that map?
Mitch: e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com and I'll tell you how you can get one.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Aha ... I can see that the Men in Black got to Joe too. It's a COVERUP! I'll wager that if we were to examine the Con Ed grating, not only would we find a complete consist of Arnines, but they'd be shuttling the gray ones back and forth to Rockaway. :)
Here's something interesting from the www.chicago-L.org website. The CTA is proposing an extension to the Blue Line, beginning at its current terminus of O'Hare and traveling to Schaumburg. Two possible routes are contemplated, but the northern one (along the Kennedy Expressway) is more desirable because of the businesses and industrial parks along that route that would generate more traffic. The article cited on www.chicago-L.org says that some have even suggested eventually extending the Blue Line as far as Elgin. Now, doesn't "third rail line to Elgin" ring a bell? ;-)
Frank Hicks
Here's an idea: in Fanstasyland where money is plentiful and NIMBYs are not, you could build both lines and make it a terminal loop. That would be really cool, even though in our Realityland things like that don't happen.
Mark
It'd be about a 30-mile "terminal loop," so I don't know how practical it'd be. Plus the density out there is hardly conducive to large transit investments. The proposed terminal for both options is the largest mall in Chicagoland, plus significant offices and an Ikea. One of the few places with enough going on to even consider rail transit in the suburbs here.
Personally I think it'd be better in the long run to use the southern route and zone and build up around it in transit-friendly manners. I hate median-located rail. It's even louder, it's colder, it's stinky. But it's cheaper, it's biggest advantage.
That's why I said it was a Fantasyland project. I like non-median right-of-ways better, too. It's easier to build pedestrian-friendly developments around the stations if the line isn't in a median. I used to like the idea of a train whizzing down the median to remind the people stuck in traffic that they have another option, but I'm not sure how well this really works.
Mark
I don't think that map is wholely accurate. Isn't it Interstate 290, the Eisenhower, that goes up the western side of Busse woods through Schaumberg? I know it becomes Illinois Rt 53 somewhere along there. They show 294, which is the Tri State tollway, and it runs roughly north-south, but does it over on the opposite side of O'hare, just off the map. Just outside the city, I 294 and 290 run parallel for a little bit, but theres practically no interchange between them, so unless all of the tristate, from wisconsin to indiana is now 290, and all of the Eisenhower is 294, from the post office in downtown to schaumberg, then who ever made the map was a bit confused.
You know, you're completely right! I hadn't even noticed the "route number" on the Interstate because I knew where it was, but that's definitely the 290 extension and not 294 as the map says. The typo strikes again!
Frank Hicks
What they don't explain in either of these proposals is how they'll deal with all the people from Rosemont to Division Street who will then be unable to board their train in the morning because it's already packed full of people from Schaumburg and Mt. Prospect. Without additional capacity (express tracks?) further inbound, this proposal is doomed to failure. As it is most mornings already, inbound Blue Line trains are usually packed before they even get to Logan Square, and people further inbound are forced to literally fight their way onto a train.
As much as I generally favor rapid transit expansion, I think this proposal is nothing more than a pie-in-the-sky ploy to curry favor with Northwest suburbanites in order to ease NIMBY opposition of O'Hare expansion, which has been linked to the Blue Line proposal. What's needed out in Schaumburg is better Metra and Pace service, not the siphoning off of an already-strained city infrastructure.
Actually, what's needed more than anything else out in Schaumbrg is a dose of sanity in order to reign in their malignant proliferation of strip malls and cookie-cutter McMansions. If these suburbanites really want the benifits of city living such as convenient transit, nobody is stopping them from moving back into the damn city. Their traffic-choked highways are the price they pay for the lifestyle they've chosen.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Very well stated, David. I was formulating a reply along the same lines. Last I heard, the "C" in CTA stands for Chicago. CTA would do well to improve rapid transit within the city limits: improving service on existing lines, upgrading the infrastructure, extending lines to the Far South Side, implementing the proposed inner city Circle Line, etc., etc.
This idea is really, really stupid in terms of moving people. Maybe it's smart political maneuver by someone.
RailDriver has announced it will be shipping its MS Train Sim control panel by the end of December.
Here's the link.
Nice. Would be nice if it worked with BVE as well.
Paul
B"H
it'd be nice if MSTS worked well. ;)
MSTS works just fine...if your computer system has the "cajones" to handle it.....as with MANY of today's intense simulation programs.
I'm sure you could program it to. Since you can assign keyboard functions to it, make the reverser be front arrow and rear arrow, etc etc...
BVE will work with a JOYSTICK if you're so inclined ... since I've had the "pleasure" of playing with an R143, a joystick is a natural when running 143's in BVE ... and nothing fancy required either. If I read the details correctly on the raildriver site, the controller for MSTS can be "adjusted" programmatically to provide the keys for use with BVE as well, but I'd write the manufacturer and ask if the "keys out" can be reprogrammed. I'm betting it CAN ...
But who wants to run a GP40 or SD80 control stand for subway cars? :)
And the CD you were going to send me?
Email me an address and we'll get it out tomorrow.
Funny, the thing isn't out yet and already the price has gone up twenty bucks!
First time I saw the page, it said $129.95.
Look at the bright side side on this. Maybe next year, they'll develope the controls for subway cars. I would personally rather have the controls for Push-Pull Comet cab cars and Arrow III MU's. I already own a controller from the NYC subway.
Went to Canal Street today and looked at what was going on.
The crossover to northbound platforms totally gone.
The northbound express track has been halfway of the length filled with cement.
What is the whole purpose of this - why can't they leave the stations as they originally were built (especially Chambers)???
That's a question I hope someone has a answer too.To me it really makes no sense at all.
Chambers isn't being touched in this project. Perhaps it will be realigned in a later project -- personally, I doubt it -- but trains currently use a two-track alignment between Chambers and Canal, and all that the current project is changing is the four-track alignment from Canal to Essex.
Chambers - the elephant in the room that nobody sees and nobody wants to admit is there.
wayne
They're in self-denial over the fact that Chambers St. looks like the main building at Ellis Island before renovation.
Watch: one day that station is going to cave in or implode onto itself and they'll be scratching their heads saying, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......"
It looks like a dungeon with the abandoned platforms, w/o any sufficient service, it will continue to be in the condition it is in now.
>>"Watch: one day that station is going to cave in or implode onto itself and they'll be scratching their heads saying, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......"<<
We shall wait & see only time will tell........
More likely, the city inspectors checking out the Municipal Building will go down there one day, say, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......" and put a maze of column supports and scaffolding up in the station, if not shut the whole thing down entirely, cutting off J/M/Z service south of Canal while repairs are made to make sure the Muni doesn't suddenly go bye-bye (and given what's already happened in Lower Manhattan and the building's proximity to police headquarters, could you imagine the panic if somthing like that happened because the MTA let the station's infrastructure turn into a shambles...)
The configration of the Centre St. line is obsolete. It doesn't see the intense traffic it did prior to the 1960's. The need for a terminal at Canal St. hasn't exited for 34 years. Why not simplify the wole thing?
Chambers St. will not be reconfigured. It cannot due to grade differences at the southern end.
Chambers St. will not be reconfigured. It cannot due to grade differences at the southern end.
Sure, *I* can reconfigure it!
: )
I'll 1) Close Brooklyn Bridge to cars.
2) I'll put LRVs on the Bridge to terminate in Chambers,
3) ...
To me, thw hole realignment thing only puts the Nassau line into a deeper hole and I don't see the sense in doing this.
Although, I never like seeing something "downgraded", I can understand it in the case of the Nassau line, especially at Bowery. Maybe they will be able to maintain the stations better if they only have to do one platform at Bowery and Canal. It will look less rundown and depressing with the abandoned tracks gone. I see an improvement of aesthetics when this project is done. All the abanoned and unused areas adds to the depressing feel the Nassau line has. By abandoning the two platforms, it leaves less unused infastructure in plain view.
Fulton and Broad are already great looking stations (and Fulton was a real pit before). The Canal platform that will remain is also nicely restored. Bowery looks better than it did, but with a low use station like that, I'm sure what they did is all they will be doing for a while. They are working on Essex. i assume maybe a new tilejob will be done at Essex. I would also hope they put a wall up along the current Queens-Bound track there, making a nice tiled trackwall. They can even add the Retro looking tiles and mosaics like they did at Fulton and Broad. It would really improve the look of the station if there is a nice tiled wall there instead of the open look into the abandoned, garbage strewn trolley terminal. That would only leave Chambers as a disaster area on the Nassau Line.
What does concern me is that Queens-Bound platform at Canal Street is always crowded. In addition, the platforms are fairly narrow. I just hope that the Broad Street platform at Canal will be able to handle passengers waiting for trains in both directions. (At Bowery there is no problem).
I think they're going to use the uptown platform for the storage of equipment. If so, they don't need the center trackway, thus they want to fill it in for the additional space.
What I'm somewhat concerned about is the width of the downtown platform. That platform looks pretty narrow - will there be crowding problems?
Anyone have any idea on how to power an Image Replica HO R29?
I bought three of those cars at the Red Caboose in the redbird color scheme. One car was powered - I believe the power truck came from Bachmann's GE 44-ton switcher.
Information on using these power trucks can be found on the East Penn Traction Club site, www.eastpenn.org. Check the article HOliner.pdf, which discusses using this power truck for retrofitting an Electroliner.
Another source is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hotractionmodeling/. You have to become a member to join the group to view the messages and ask questions, but it should be worthwhile.
Also, check out Model SubTalk, linked to this site through Merchandise, Models, and Software.
Thank you George.
eBay #734944312
eBay #734944312 is:
FAST AND FURIOUS Awesome cast SIGNED POSTER
The correct auction number is 743944312. Thanks for pointing this out. I own a copy of this book myself in the same condition. It would be interesting to see how much it sells for just in case I should decide to unload mine. I'm figuring it sells for between $75-$100.
I have personally sold a copy of this book at a train show 2 years ago for $60, and know of another vendor at the KofP show last September who sold it for $70.
--Mark
Check out the NY1 link here:
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=26267
Just copy + paste. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make links, so don't get angry at me! :-)
I look at the $1.50 as an ADMISSION fee to the world's greatest subway and bus system, with its history, rolling stock, equipment, culture and social value.
So what is the deal with the "Fare"? Are they going to raise that too?
I'm glad you posted with your own opinion, but I have one gripe.
Why aren't more people posting to this? I'm sure this could spawn some good ole' Subtalk discussion.
The TWU has proposed some good ideas that might save money over many years, but not immediately. For example, you can't give buses signal priority citywide overnight.
As to in-house forces vs. contractors, if they are talking about construction (what else could it be -- what else do contractors do?), it depends on the economy. The TA was getting hit hard the past three years, because construction was hot and construction workers hard to get, but that's about to turn around in a big way. I'd expect low bids for the next couple of years. Of course, that must mean its time to cut the capital budget.
And in-house forces are not available to do more work, so you'd have to hire in any event. In house forces already do the track work. It might makes sense for some RR stuff, especially signals, given the collapse of the private industry. But then you are saving capital funds, not operating -- operating personnel already do all the maintenance.
There's an image on the website I'd like to use for a presentation -- it says from the collection of Joe Tesragose. How do I go about asking for permission -- if it is possible?
AEM7
I don't think Joe objects to non-commercial use of his images.
JT is a daily poster on alt.binaries.pictures.rails. You can get in touch with him there if you wish.
hey, thanks folks. i'll show it as from nycsubway.org contributed by joe :)
AEM7
This afternoon @ 2:24 PM I saw a rerouted R68 B train @ 168 Street heading to 207 Street on the A line. Was there delays on the A line around that time? If so could someone investigate this? Damn I wish I had my camera!
Did it have passengers? It could have been heading to the overhaul shops...
yes it was in passenger service.
Had they changed all the signs?
Peace,
ANDEE
no
No it was sporting its regular B-BPB,Bronx & 34 St-HS signs.
Did you ride the R68 B back to and from 207 St or did it go out of service afterward?
I didn't rode that train I just saw it & I have no idea if it went back into service @ 207 Street.
Unlikely, it must have been filling in for a delay in "A" or "C" service. 207 doesn't handle R68 MU's.
Man... I haven't seen one of those up there since the Q was sent to 207th st to replace the A SERVICE years ago....
Yeah... So he pushed the Wronk Button and didn't know his line-ups.
Betch *that* is embareassing!
Elias
No, then he would have turned at 168th.
The B was probably sent to 207th to fill in for a gap in A service.
If that created an unacceptable gap in Concourse local service, a D could have been sent local.
"If that created an unacceptable gap in Concourse local service, a D could have been sent local."
NOPE!!!!! @ 2:24 PM the B only runs to 145th St. There would be no gap in local concourse service.
Back to the issue at hand! If a B train was sent on the A line it was due to:
1) Incorrect punch
2) Gap in A/C service
3) Switch problem at 135th St
4) Blockage at 145th St.
5) The train was actually a school car train and not in passeger service.
Now - which do you think is the correct answer?
I think it was either 1 or 2.
Oh, you're right. I didn't catch the time, but Amin said it was signed for BPB, so I assumed it was rush hour. (B signage is usually correct, IME.)
My guess is 2, since otherwise the B could have turned at 168, but I have no way of knowing for sure.
(Thanks for the email, BTW.)
Looks like 1 or 2 but I'm leaning more toward #1. It is not #5 b/c the person who started this topic said there were passengers on the train.
A wrong punch would have the train turned at 168 St; school car would have no passengers; switch problems or blockage at 145 would have the train turned at 168 also. Therefore, it was a gap in A service.
the resulting gap in B service is filled by bringing the gap train, north of 145 into service early.
" It is not #5 b/c the person who started this topic said there were passengers on the train."
Apparently you've never seen a school car train. Trainees sitting everywhere. To the casual observer, they can look like passengers. In all honesty, I did not find out the correct answer today as we were a tad busy getting everything ready for the snow and the cold-weather plan.
To add on to what you said, they usually have vests on, and if there are people crowded up at the front cab it could be a school car train. On 75' school car trains, usually all the storm doors are unlocked, so you'll see two blue lights on the side of every car the length of the train. Right?
The B was sent to 207th Street to cover service because of a huge delay in the A and C service. An A train went BIE at Hoyt-Schermerhorn in Brooklyn, causing 25 to 30 minute delays.
The train probably ran light (meaning no passengers were on the train) back to 145th Street where it went back in passenger service, but on the upper level.
A man was critically injured last night when he apparently walked into the side of a moving train from the platform of the Dunn Loring-Merrifield Metro station in Fairfax County, authorities said.
The man, whose identity was being withheld pending notification of relatives, was taken to Inova Fairfax Hospital with what appeared to be a head injury, said Metro spokeswoman Cheryl Johnson. He was listed in critical condition last night, a hospital spokeswoman said. Trains were delayed for about 10 minutes after the 7:17 p.m. incident.
Metro officials asked witnesses to call 202-962-2121.
STUPID people! Just WHERE do people like these originate!?!?
Dunn Loring is a busy station... I can see this happening because often enough after passengers exit the train - if the platform is crowded some folks will walk along the platfrom next to the train and it's quite possible that this unfortunate person may have lost their balance and fell against the moving train. Now given the fact that WMATA train accelerate pretty quickly it could have easily hurled the man violently to the ground or even into a support column.
Just a possible scenario.
Wayne
At a barstool for several hours?
A man was critically injured last night when he apparently walked into the side of a moving train from the platform of the Dunn Loring-Merrifield Metro station in Fairfax County, authorities said.
How is he doing. I am interested in knowing.
- Charles Darwin
ROFLMAO
Hahahahaha....heh.
Definite candidate for the Darwins...
has this man spoke to his lawyer yet. i see a big bucks here
Oh god, I can hear the automated anouncements in a few years:
"Please Watch the moving train, please watch the moving train. Please keep all hands and fingers away from the train until the train has come to a complete stop, Doors now opening, please watch the opening doors, doors are now opening, please make room on the platform for the exiting passengers, please allow the passengers to exit first, please step aside if on the train and not exiting, please do not crowd the doors. Doors are now closing, please watch the doors, please keep all hands, fingers and other body parts away from the doors until they are fully closed, the doors are now opening, please watch the opening doors, please do not hold the doors, doors are now closing, doors are now opening, please do not hold the doors, doors are now closing, remember to check that all small children have their hands and arms away from the closing doors. Doors are now closed, please do not lean on the doors. Please watch the moving train, please do not lean on the doors, please watch the moving train, please do not attempt to touch the moving train." "The next station is..."
I'll take a mechanical bell anyday! :)
Have anybody have and/or seen the new Ad's on the MetroCards?
There's 2. One is "Why Run for the Train?" and the other one is the Zagat Survey. Have anybody got theese? If so what station was brought from
>>Have anybody have and/or seen the new Ad's on the MetroCards? <<
Both these cards are sold out of MVM's, where is anybody's guess. "Why run for the train" is one of these safety Metrocards. There should be a couple more eventually.
I was told that there are four Zagat Survey cards and also heard that there may be six ! Your best bet is to check the Metrocard readers. That's where I found mine.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's what I did. I check and fround 2 of the "Why Run For The Train" Ones but only took 1 since the other one was sort of dirty!
Sometimes I find the TransitChek MetroCards in there
>>That's what I did. I check and fround 2 of the "Why Run For The Train" Ones but only took 1 since the other one was sort of dirty!
Sometimes I find the TransitChek MetroCards in there<<
There you go, now you're learning !
A couple of years ago I was checking the reader at Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(9), I found an American Express John MacEnroe Metrocard with a matching paper Metrocard holder. I swiped it and although it was expired, it was a single ride card that probably was given out at the US Open.
And if that doesn't top it, my friend who is a LIRR engineer usually checks the reader at Penn since he is a collector too. One day he was checking the readers at Penn Sta. (A)(C)(E)a couple of years ago and found an original blueback MTA "apple" Metrocard ! Probably someone swiped it and found it to be expired and discarded it not knowing it's value.
Keep checking them readers !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder why MetroCard ads hasn't been around so much like before in the past year. Anyway I heard about the Zagat ads & why run for the train ads but no, I haven't seen any yet.
I bought a "Why Run" last week at Herald Square, south BMT mezzanine, middle (of three) full-size MVM's. Haven't found the other yet.
I did try Monday to get a Why Run for the Train or the Zagat Survey ones at the Van Wyck Blvd Station buy getting a $4 Pay Per Ride MetroCard. And did I get it? NO! I only used that card on the Q17 2 Times and now have $1 Left.
When I go get a $60 Pay Per Ride MetroCard on thursday or friday I would hope to get the Zagat One or anouther Why Run for the train one.
Also I happin to have a LIRR Ticket/MetroCard in my collection and only have $1.50 Left and expires at the end of this month(The MetroCard Part) so I try the booth as well.
>>getting a $4 Pay Per Ride MetroCard. And did I get it? NO! I only used that card on the Q17 2 Times and now have $1 Left.<<
I'm doing the math but it makes no sense. A $4 pay per ride with $1 left ? The funpass is $4. Please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
He made the wrong selection by accident and got a $4 PPR card.
Is the private bus fare still only $1 in some areas? Perhaps he was planning on taking on of those.
CG
Well I had change to get rid of. And do not consider me nuts,I have seen strange amounts on MetroCard Before(Like $7,$14,ETC,ETC!)
I have a number of cards with 1.00 and .50 on them, plus one with .52 left.
52 CENTS!!!!????
Somebody must have put 2 1 Cent Coins into the MVM or to the token booth clerk and took it
No, it was probably the outcome of the 10% bonus.
Pay $18.20 for a new card. (Why $18.20? Don't ask me.) The 10% bonus brings that to $20.02. Use the card to pay 13 fares. It's left with a 52-cent balance.
Well I used that card only used it 2 Times on the Q17 in 1 Day so I did not need a 1 Day Unlimted. I just wanted to put $4 on it b/c I felt like it and I was not in need of a 1 Day Unlimted since I just used that card on the Q17 only. I could had put $3 or $4.50 on it but I wanted $4 on it.
I found a "Why run" and a Zagat-River this morning, both in the discard stack at 86th. I guess that doesn't help anyone else find them.
>>I found a "Why run" and a Zagat-River this morning, both in the discard stack at 86th. I guess that doesn't help anyone else find them.<<
WATCH OUT ! There should be either four of six Zagats out there. They have different restaurants reviewed, that's how you tell them apart. Otherwise, they look identical.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's why I identified the card I found as the Zagat-River. I'm still searching for the others.
>>That's why I identified the card I found as the Zagat-River. I'm still searching for the others.<<
Good luck bro !
Bill "Newkirk"
I've got a Zagat-Gramercy Tavern FunPass that I'm using today. I'd be happy to drop it in the mail to someone when I'm finished with it tonight. First person to e-mail me their address can have it.
CG
Claimed.
CG
I bought a "Zagat Surver - Gramercy Tavern" yesterday at the MVM in Grand Central -- just outside fare control for the Shuttle.
CG
I got the same one at 34th street last week
Here is the one I bought
--Brian
Sorry, I updated the scan. Click HERE for the image
--Brian
My personal opinion is that advertisers got fed up dealing with the TAs bs, hence, no ads on MCs. Not that anybody ever read them anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
A good possibility but you have to add the severe abuses regarding distribution that occurred in the past and have been discussed here a number of times.
That could be easily solved ... make the Station Agent/MVM Service person accountable for every card. The problem was the TA didn't care about how many cards existed until they were encoded with money on them. The second problem is that there are collectors out there that wanted to get 50 or 100 or every new card & they wanted them pristine. Well that's not a hobby, it's a business. This week I got one of the new cards from a driver & another friend thought of me while on a out-of-town business trip. I owe both of them something, THAT IS A HOBBY!
When QSC was doing retail sales I received the cards & had to account for every one ... no big deal they come in a series of numbers. Some times there's a break in the series, but it's documented. Once I had a problem with a miss feed at the warehouse (one card had printing but no value, the next had no printing but money). The cards come in sealed boxes ... if the seal is broken, send it back without receiving it.
OK, now the cards are out of the box in the booth, but they are still in order, just don't drop them. When you go off shift you log the last card sold. If the next person finds a card missing within the group he/she's selling that will be a problem ONCE, because someone will have to explain, i.e. if you treat the cards like money from the instant they arrive you either leave them alone or you'll be looking for a new job.
Enough old cards come in the booth to keep the collector happy.
Hi.
On Thursday I fround anouther "Why run for the Train?" at the Union Turnpike Subway Station MetroCard Reader and also fround there where 2 Zagat Survey Balthazar cards. and I happin to buy a $3 Pay Per Ride MetroCard and I got a "Why Run for the Train?" MetroCard
Since the worst subway car [which I didn't start] & worst subway line threads are popular and you guys seem to be having fun with it, lets bring in a 3rd installment of the worst... by seeing your opinions on the worst and best looking stations. Lets make it a top 5 best & worst since it would make more sense.
The worst:
Chambers St J,M,Z
Smith-9 St F,G
2 Avenue F
155 St B,D
86 St R
The best:
14 St/Union Sq 4,5,6
Broadway-Lafayette F,V,Grand shuttle
Utica Av A,C
3 Av/149 St 2,5
Woodhaven Blvd G,R,V
I know now it doesn't look to nice, but when all of the construction is done -- Times Square is gonna be NICE!
It would have been in my top 5 but it is not complete in the interior but its high in my list. You better believe that its going to look nice, well great!
The worst:
76st St.
I can't see it, it's too dark down there !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The worst station: 76th Street, because it gives me the heebe jeebies.
The best station: 81st St on the 8th Ave IND, because of the interesting art.
The worst:
1 - Chambers St J,M,Z - I love the station, but damn it's a pit.
2 - 86th/4th Ave - A disgrace with painted walls.
3 - 2nd Ave/Houston - The epidomy of depressing IND stations.
4 - Broadway/Crosstown - another run-down depressing IND station.
5 - Bowery/Nassau - Much better than it used to be but still a quite depressing station.
Honorable Mention - Smith/9th would have made the list, but they are working on the viaduct, and the view is one of the best in the system, so that keeps it off my sh*t list.
The Best:
1 - 33rd Street/Lexington - I love Contract One stations, and they did a class act at restoring it.
2 - 5th Avenue/Broadway Line - great restoration
3 - Union Square/Lexington - My favorite station in the system, very unique. Probably lacking on ornamentation, so that's why it's third instead of 1st.
4 - 36th Street/4th Ave - great restoration
5 - 18th Street/7th-Bway Line - I like the way they renovated it (along with most of the stations on the lower end of the line).
Honorable Mention - 81st/CPW - another great renovation
Honorable mentions for the worst looking stations on the G at B'way, 4 Av line stations: 9 St, Prospect Av, 25 St, 45 St, 53 St, Bay Ridge Av & 77 St, damn I hate those refridgerator tiles, they make the stations look so dull, plain & ugly!
Hoorable mentions for good looking stations is restoring original tiles to all B'way local stations south of 34 St to Canal St, the in house renovations on some 1/9 stations south of 34 St and 81 St on the B & C, excellent job.
My favorite is New Utrecht on the Sea Beach. You enter a curving mini-tunnel that you see the end of, then arrive at the station only to look up and see the West End above. Always liked seeing that and still do.
But if we go back to yesteryear my favorite was Prospect Park Station on the then #1 Brighton Express. That would take you up the steps and two blocks to Ebbets Field where my childhood idols used to play.
Strange for someone who now despises the Dodgers.
My favorite is New Utrecht on the Sea Beach. You enter a curving mini-tunnel that you can't see the end of, then arrive at the station only to look up and see the West End above. Always liked seeing that and still do.
But if we go back to yesteryear my favorite was Prospect Park Station on the then #1 Brighton Express. That would take you up the steps and two blocks to Ebbets Field where my childhood idols used to play.
Strange for someone who now despises the Dodgers.
The worst:
1 - Chambers St/Nassau - I love the station, but damn it's a pit.
2 - 86th/4th Ave - A disgrace with painted walls.
3 - 2nd Ave/Houston - The epidomy of depressing IND stations.
4 - Broadway/Crosstown - another run-down depressing IND station.
5 - Bowery/Nassau - Much better than it used to be but still a quite depressing station.
Honorable Mention - Smith/9th would have made the list, as it needs help, but they are working on the viaduct, and the view from the station is one of the best in the system, so that keeps it off my sh*t list.
The Best:
1 - 33rd Street/Lexington - I love Contract One stations, and they did a class act at restoring it.
2 - 5th Avenue/Broadway Line - great restoration
3 - Union Square/Lexington - My favorite station in the system, very unique. Probably lacking on ornamentation, so that's why it's third instead of 1st.
4 - 36th Street/4th Ave - great restoration
5 - 18th Street/7th-Bway Line - I like the way they renovated it (along with most of the stations on the lower end of the line).
Honorable Mention - 81st/CPW - another great renovation
How is smith & 9th the worst, the view is fantastic!!
Which view, the one seeing the highway & other sights or the condition of the station ;-). It may have nice views but if you think its interesting, think again. Take a visit to Smith-9 St, roam through the station VERY carefully & you'll see why it is ranked as the 5 worst stations in my view. Its just depressing.
The ultimate pit - Ninth Ave / Lower Level - Culver Line.....As seen on the MOD Steeplecab Trip.......Great set for a horror movie....Wonder why they re-tiled the back of the stairway if they were going to close it down ??????
Actually, I didn't think 9th Ave lower was in such bad shape. Chambers Street is much worse, and that's OPEN!
--Mark
You think 9 Av LL is a horror show, Chambers could really be a set for a horror movie. The film could be filmed at all the abandoned stations and the real horror comes when we find out 76 St is "mysteriously not there", we experience nervous breakdowns and go at one another. It could be called "Subway Caverns". Pretty cool ;-)
Hmm, let's see, the worst stations. Here's what I think.
1. Chambers St. (J)/(M)(this is one horrible lookling station)
2. Bedford Av. (L) (easily the worst looking station on the L, the walls are so corroded)
3. 86 St. (R) (another ugly looking station)
4. Lex. Av.-51 ST (E)/(V)(Its an insult, when you compare it to the niceness of the 51 St. station of the (6) )
5. Bowery (J)/(M)
Didn't make the list:
If I could choose another, it would had been Court St.(M)/(N)/(R).
Now for the best.
1. Lorimer St. (L) (very nice, same goes to the Metro. Av. station of the G line. Too bad Bedford Av. never got any attention)
2. Flushing/Halsey/Gates/etc. (basicly all the stations on Broadway that got their new and improved look, but if I had to choose a favorite, it would be Flushing Av.)
3. Jamaica Center (E)/(J) (great, and unique looking station)
Since you did your top 5 already, go on and comment on nasty looking or good looking stations that's what the thread is all about. Court St is odd with the tube shape but not as bad as Lawrence St, it is so damn narrow, very hot and dingy. Lex/53 is just TACKY and awful with no tile & painted walls that the paint looks so cheap.
Lawrence Street is bad. I believe it was an "afterthought" station, built right into the tunnel, that's why it's so dingy, and no tiles.
There is a full blown tile job in the mezzanine, with the same colors as Grand on the "L", but with the same "ladder" pattern as found at Court and Whitehall. It includes borders, short frieze and directional tablets too. I am not sure why they did not tile the trackside walls.
wayne
I know it was a afterthought and it came out that way & the stairs are WORST than 72 St on the 1,2,3 & 9. Definitely a thumbs down, the 4 Av local statons are bad too[mainly due to the refidgerator tiles], especially 9 St, its dingy, full of storage/garbage, the fare control area and tiles is tacky & the passageway to 4 Av on the F is a workout and dark. The 2nd worst station on 4 Av and 86 St takes the award for ugliest on 4 Av, come on brown AND green; hideous 8-O!.
Hmm, let's see, the worst stations. Here's what I think.
1. Chambers St. (J)/(M)(this is one horrible lookling station)
2. Bedford Av. (L) (easily the worst looking station on the L, the walls are so corroded)
3. 86 St. (R) (another ugly looking station)
4. Lex. Av.-51 ST (E)/(V)(Its an insult, when you compare it to the niceness of the 51 St. station of the (6) )
5. Bowery (J)/(M)
Didn't make the list:
If I could choose another, it would had been Court St.(M)/(N)/(R).
Now for the best.
1. Lorimer St. (L) (very nice, same goes to the Metro. Av. station of the G line. Too bad Bedford Av. never got any attention)
2. Flushing/Halsey/Gates/etc. (basicly all the stations on Broadway that got their new and improved look, but if I had to choose a favorite, it would be Flushing Av.)
3. Jamaica Center (E)/(J) (great, and unique looking station)
4. Broad St. (J)/(M). (definitely the best, and only truly nice looking Manhattan station of the J/M/Z lines )
5. Bergen St. (F)/(G).
If I had another choice, it would be Queens Plaza, (N)/(7). Cool looking view.
What do you's think?
And #2 for my favorites is from the (J) and (M) lines. I forgot to put it on my previous post.
....Obviously spoken by a true Eastern Division Rider.
Sounds good to me. It's so subjective as to taste and what people like about the "best" looking station, or the renovations done (or not done) in stations. I guess we all agree of course that Chambers Street belongs on the "worst" condition list.
But if EVERY platform and mosaic was rebuilt and has more train lines running through, it would look like a gem but we have to live with it as a 'cellar'. Its on most people's worst list b/c its fallen to real despair, the exposed side platform brings it down and the station only serves ONE line 24 hours, the J. The Nassau line seems like its gonig to become a storage, garbage filled, dark line:the realignment, Chambers St, the future abandonment of 1 island platform/2 tracks at Canal St & Bowery and the exposed former trolley terminal, never ending work at Essex St.
Worst in condition but best in design.
191 on the 1/9 is similar, though less grand than its southerly neighbors.
Worst in condition but best in design
Very true. Chambers is one of the grandest stations in the system. I is one of my favorites. It would be an unbelievable station if it was in good condition.
Bedford Avenue station is an island platform. They are probably going to wait until a station rehab is in order before doing anything about the wall tile. As was done at other stations, they will probably do white tile panels over the existing stuff, and a hi-pressure steam cleaning of the frieze as was done at Union Square, followed by touch-up, repoint (where needed) and reglaze. The center of the frieze at Bedford, however, is a monotonous mix of three ugly shades of tan/parchment/beige. MAYBE they could get creative and paint random squares in the center some other color, like green, white, yellow or the like; they DO have enamel that works on ceramic tile (available at Pearl in Canal Street).
wayne
Ridgewood, go ahead and broaden your perspective on the stations in the whole subway system since you announced your top/worst 5. Bergen St is pretty neat and Queens Plaza on the N, W & 7 I believe has the best transfer in the whole system.
#1 and #3 onm your liost are being fixed. the E/V platfofm is beign renovated now abnd wiull have a full mezzanine, walla nd floor tile, etc.
Chambers on the J will be desaigned in the five year plan along with soem temporary remdiation work.
86 on the R si basically OK- just needs tile at platform level.
Please remember- it takes time and money to fix all stations. I have a candidate station (now being renovated) that is the IRT's version fo Chambers--rusting rebar is visible in places, wall tile is missing ands pieces of concrete missing, failing elevators,pouring in water etc. It is 191 on the 1/9.
As far as how they decide statiosn to fix-- station siae, passenger volume abd overall condition. Let's say you ahve twop statiosn needing work, # 1 has 10 passengers and was last patcheds 20 years ago while station2 has 10,000 passengers and was last patched 35 years ago, I'd go with #2. Anpother factor is structure work allowing for a line-by-line approach such as is being done from North of E180 to 241 on the 2 with structure and station renovation and is in the 5 year plan for the K from East of Broaday Jct to W of Cypress Hills (Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland, Norwood, and Crsceent)
Another Chambers station - the IRT one on the 1,2,3,9 - is in pretty poor shape too. Basically a nice design, but in serious need of cleaning and renovating.
It could use a little touch up but some stations really need some new wall tile like 7 and Church Aves on the F its developing rust and the tiles are falling off from the walls.
Right! WHile I don't have the official ranking criteria but I would imagine condition of tile (falling off) woudl be on the list.
The two stations mentioned are not in the 5 year plan.
I personally rate stations not on appearance but on convenience of getting in and out, or transfering.
Bad (maybe not worst):
- 6th Ave and 34th St IND. The easy ways in and out tend to be packed with people. The hard ways take forever.
- 23rd St PATH. Pass under the F and go back up to get to the PATH.
- Fulton St. complex. Hard to find the open entrances on a weekend. Because the J/M/Z takes up two levels, there's just no good way to get from east end to west end of the station (not that many people need to transfer from the 2/3 to the 4/5 there, but in the pouring rain it's nice, but very inconveneient, to stay dry by staying underground). IIRC there are some strange arrows that can lead you astray. Still, signage is much better than it was many years ago.
- 8th Ave. and 34th. Since the IND has so few local-only stops below 59th, often either the express or the local will do. You need good physical agility to position yourself so you can wait for the one that comes first.
Most improved:
- Union Square. Getting to/from the L is easier (wider stairs) than it used to be, and now there's an elevator too. The escalator to street level has been behaving very well lately. Peeves: they could use a few more turnstiles in the SE corner, and they made the SE stairs a few inches nearrower when they renovated.
- 8th Ave and 14th: access from the L has been improved with new, wider stairs. The elevator works, too.
Thats cool, whatever suits you best but I'm not only basing this on appearence but you got to admit, some stations are just BAD! I also look at things like ridership patterns, lighting & transfer points[or lack of].
Top five worst:
1) Chambers Street (J,M,Z); nothing even comes close
2) Broadway (G)
3) Van Alst-21st St (G)
4) Lexington-53rd St (E,V)
5) Bowery (J,M,Z)
Top five best:
1) 33rd Street (6)
2) Utica Avenue (A,C)
3) 149th St-3 Ave (2,5)
4) Jamaica-Van Wyck (E)
5) Astor Place (6)
wayne
>>>155 St B,D <<<
What on earth is wrong with this station? Other than the closed stairways?
Peace,
ANDEE
Its more than the anandoned stairways, its very dark & could sure use a little brightening up. They could have done a better job in blocking the staircases than using rippled metal sheets, there's something about it I just don't like.
Smith-9 St F,G
If anything, this is one of the best.
My worst stations:
Atlantic Av IRT-until they finish it, it's pretty rough. Passing under the trains, you can see the trucks for the cars! And you can get cellphone reception and sunlight thanks to the holes that were there!
Chambers St/Nassau st subway-It explains itself.
Bowery--low ridership seems to equal a crappy station.
Lawrence st./Metrotech-lack of wall tiles makes it seem like you're in a tunnel.
Fulton st West Side IRT-The wall mosaic is dirty, and the station needs overhaul. Wall 2/3 stop at least has a good floor
Best stations:
Lexington/63rd av- Good example of warm colors used effectively, much like:
Bowling Green-same as above. Also one stop from:
Wall/Lexington av subway- Nice colors in my opinion. Wooden Token booth too.
Archer av subway stations- They're nice examples of modern styled stations.
Bergen-Clean look. Example of how the 'bland' look of the IND can look nice.
Good Observations - just some comments:
My worst stations:
Atlantic Av IRT-until they finish it, it's pretty rough. Passing under the trains, you can see the trucks for the cars
Although it is a disaster area, I think under construction stations don't count as much as stations like Chambers where it is just left to rot. At least at Atlantic it's temporary.
Lawrence st./Metrotech-lack of wall tiles makes it seem like you're in a tunnel.
That's because it is in a tunnel! It's an "afterthought station", built right into the tunnel! Very true though, it belongs on this list.
Best stations:
Bergen-Clean look. Example of how the 'bland' look of the IND can look nice.
Yes, they did a great job at that station. Although most IND stations are a bit bland and cavernous, and even depressing, I do like the basic look at many of them. The renovation at Bergen is a great job at keeping the classic IND look, while softening up the cavernous, bland, depressing look many of the IND stations have. I'll give it an "A".
That's because it is in a tunnel! It's an "afterthought station", built right into the tunnel!
They could have added Tiles to it.
I agree there. It's beyond me as to why just because it was built in the tunnel, that they couldn't add tiles to Lawrence Street. The same goes for Grand Central on the 7. They just renovated the station, and still no tiles, and at such a high use station like that! It could be a very unique and interesting station if it were tiled.
Hey look at Atlantic Av on the Q, look how long it didn't have a completed tile wall. It makes the station look far better but already it is showing dirt and grime. Maybe Lawrence is too narrow for tiles ;-)
Part of the problem at Atlantic "Q" station's new wall is that they didn't buff off the excess grout!
wayne
And a funny thing is that b/c of the wires, one side is higher than the other. The lower side has the "A" mosaic while the other does not.
A new coffee table book written by Sandra Forty is in the stores. In the disaster section is a two page spread of a major transit accident on an elevated line.
The caption indicates that it was New York City, circa 1920. The scene would indicate this was a major derailment with one of the cars almost on its side. The problem is that the cars shown do not look anything like any New York City rapid transit cars that I have ever seen. The car numbers are unique in that they both start with a O. The car numbers were 0311 and 0934, with 0934 almost laying on its side.
I am really curious as to what city this really is. I saw the book at Sam's Club, but I would suspect it would be in the book stores as well. The picture is on pg 294-295.
If anyone would have any clue to this accident, please post!
Thats not New York, it is Boston.
There was a serious accident in 1928 at the curve at Harrison Ave. & Beach St. on the former Atlantic Ave. Elevated line. 0934 was one of the cars destroyed in the derailment.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks George! That was a quick response.
I guess I should have suspected Boston with that first digit zero business.
A new coffee table book written by Sandra Forty is in the stores. In the disaster section is a two page spread of a major transit accident on an elevated line.
The caption indicates that it was New York City, circa 1920. The scene would indicate this was a major derailment with one of the cars almost on its side. The problem is that the cars shown do not look anything like any New York City rapid transit cars that I have ever seen. The car numbers are unique in that they both start with a O. The car numbers were 0311 and 0934, with 0934 almost laying on its side.
I am really curious as to what city this really is. I saw the book at Sam's Club, but I would suspect it would be in the book stores as well. The picture is on pg 294-295.
If anyone might have any clue as to the correct city of this accident, please post!
That's has to be Boston. Till this day, their subway car numbers start with a zero.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's has to be Boston. Till this day, their subway car numbers start with a zero.
Bill "Newkirk"
So what's the big deal about the 76th Street station that NEVER existed.
What about the 9th Street PATH line! That *does* exist and you *can* get in there, if the PA cops (with their lack of humor) do not get you first.
I'll bet you there is something to see in there!
Elias
So what's the big deal about the 76th Street station that NEVER existed.
What about the 9th Street PATH line! That *does* exist and you *can* get in there, if the PA cops (with their lack of humor) do not get you first.
I'll bet you there is something to see in there!
It indeed exists. Of course, it's something like 20 feet long, but as my elementary school teachers used to say, it's the quality, not the quantity.
Of course, it's something like 20 feet long, but as my elementary school teachers used to say, it's the quality, not the quantity.
Actually, I believe it is about 200' long, and it has the original tunnel boring machine parked on it.
Or so I have been told.
Elias
>>Actually, I believe it is about 200' long, and it has the original tunnel boring machine parked on it. Or so I have been told.<<
Did they have tunnel boring machines back then ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The H&M/PATH tunnels were mostly done in silt, not bored through rock. Large portions of the ring erecting machine are in the Astor Place extension, not a tunnel boring machine. It looks like this:
that's awesome! Thanks for the info and the photo.
Terry, Great photo, thanks for sharing !
You'll be able to see that and much more at the upcoming museum exhibition. I don't want to spoil the surprise of seeing what is there, but I will say that everyone will be amazed by the show. There will be original blueprints, documents, and photos from the start of work in 1874 up to the present time. You can see the announcement that was posted here.
If 20 foot passageways are to be considered "tunnels," we have a whole new ballgame here. I guess the Winfield Spur turnoffs west of the 63rd Drive station on the Queens Blvd IND are also "tunnels."
There's a word for all of 'em : BELLMOUTH.
A tunnel that almost was.
wayne
Speaking of Bellmouths, How long is it on the IND Queensboro line north of Roosevelt Ave?
>>There's a word for all of 'em : BELLMOUTH.
A tunnel that almost was.<<
Did you ever hear of the term "tunnel pocket", also meaning "bellmouth"?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is the tunnel you can see when you pull out of the 9th Av PATH station going "railroad north"? It is filled with equipment...at least from what I can see from the train. And it looks like it goes on for a bit, around a curve.
--Brian
That's the one. It runs for about 200', as Elias has said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-China-Maglev-Train.html
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-China-Maglev-Train.html
OK, so nobody liked my idea of running 5 car trains on the 1&9 so everyone can get off at South Ferry. Here's another idea. Just plaster South Ferry signs all along the Northbound Rector Street Platform. The tourists who are stuck in the tunnel at South Ferry will think they just stopped for a signal because the next time the doors open it will say South Ferry. Up on the street have signs with arrows to the Liberty Ferry, the Staten Island Ferry, and Battery Park, and nobody would be the wiser. As far as regular commuters are concerned, they know to be in the first five cars. And the regular commuters who take the train one stop from the ferry to Rector would know damn well that there isn't two S.Ferries and that is really their stop. So only the tourists would be fooled and they would get a little more sightseeing and exercize.
Problem solved!!!
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have signs to Battery Park and the Statue of Liberty ferries at Rector St. It's only a marginally longer walk from the back end of the uptown Rector St platform to Castle Clinton than from South Ferry station. Assuming tourists who miss South Ferry will get off at Rector St in an attempt to cross over to the downtown side to get to South Ferry again (do they do this?), why not let them know they can just walk?
[" Assuming tourists who miss South Ferry will get off at Rector St in an attempt to cross over to the downtown side to get to South Ferry again (do they do this?), why not let them know they can just walk?"]
OK, for the people that do get off at Rector and cross over to try again:
Put up signs telling them to stay in the LAST four cars so they keep on doing it over and over. This way we can get the Kingston Trio to compose a NY version of Charlie of the MTA!!
It's too bad my aunt can't remember the vintage of that train she took to the Battery in 1959. She went around the loop a couple of times before a conductor finally explained that you have to be in the first five cars to get off at South Ferry, etc. Does anyone know if conductors made some sort of announcement to that effect back then on R units? Were mainline Lexington Ave. trains still using the inner loop in 1959? IIRC the R-17s were initially assigned to the 6 while the R-21s went to 7th Ave. What about the R-22s?
Did mainline Lex trains ever go to S Ferry. I thought it was always the Bowling Green Shuttle.
Mainline Lexington trains went to South Ferry except weekdays normal hours and Saturday mornings. They were (6)'s at night and (5)'s on evenings and weekends. They switched to the outer platform, enabling a transfer to the (1), and then switched back. The shuttle ran weekdays and Saturday mornings and used the inner platform (no transfer). I have never, EVER, seen a map which showed this distinction. South Ferry service stopped somewhere in the 70's, I think.
Bob Sklar
Yes:
The #5 ran to SF on weekends and evenings. The #6 served the station at night. All Lexington Ave. trains used the outer loop until the R types took over. Since these new cars couldn't just open their middle doors (necessary for trains on the inner loop) without being modified mechanically, thru 5/6 trains shared the outer loop with the #1. Only the shuttle used the inner loop.
AFAIK there were certain Lo-Vs which could selectively open only their center doors. Of course, Hi-Vs with manual end doors could do so as well. These cars, if they were assigned to mainline Lex routes, could have platformed at the inner loop.
Which they did, until the R17's showed up.
You want to get them more confused?? If its your first time in NYC, especially in Lower Manhattan, I don't really think they want to do a lot of walking LOOKING to find South Ferry. Isn't Rector a no free crossover station on the 1/9 if so, then they go to Chambers and do it all over again.
You want to get them more confused?? If its your first time in NYC, especially in Lower Manhattan, I don't really think they want to do a lot of walking LOOKING to find South Ferry.
Well, no, but even native NYers get confused in Lower Manhattan. =) But seriously, you walk on one street for like 2 blocks and you're in Battery Park. You can see the trees from the Rector St exits. As long as you direct people in the right direction leaving the station, they just have to walk straight to get there. For Lower Manhattan, it's really easy.
Isn't Rector a no free crossover station on the 1/9 if so, then they go to Chambers and do it all over again.
That is correct, but people don't know this until after they've gotten off at Rector St. Since they're hanging around the station anyway, why not let them know they don't have to wait for another train to get to Chambers St to cross over to get another train to get back to South Ferry ... it's faster just to walk.
Here's a better idea:
Put up a sign at Rector indicating that if you can see the sign, you can't get off at South Ferry. Put up signs on the tunnel walls informing passengers in the cars that the train is in the station, but they need to move forward X cars.
-Hank
But who's to say it's really a problem? Tourists are meant to be confused! It's just part of the fun of being in an unfamiliar place :o)
Bravo, Jeffrey!
The solution doesn't sound bad but STILL there will be people who will get confused; the BEST sloution is to make SF a 10 car station, how about that!
Here's the ultimate solution, and it doesn't cost a lot.
CLOSE SOUTH FERRY STATION.
No stop at South Ferry any more, no gap fillers, no confused tourists, and no megabucks need to be spent for a 10 car loop station.
Makes as much sense as every other solution posted.
The problem here is, of course, what to do with the hordes of SI ferry riders who will come after you with pitchforks and torches when you suggest a largely unnecessary service change that would deprive them of their most convenient subway access.
Dan
I assume your "answer" is sarcastic. But you know what, it may be better than spending megamoney on "straightening" the station to fit 10 cars, and in the process, slowing the line down.
I have a wild idea for South Ferry.......How about the status quo......leave it alone! That's as a good an idea as any.
Again: why do straightening and realigning have anything to do with each other?
Leave the station where it is and dig out a platform extension. If we could dig out two ten-car platforms at 59th on the East Side express, we can dig out a single five-car extension at South Ferry. Keep the loop, because any other design implemented would likely have a lower turning capacity, and the A Division can't afford capacity reductions.
Whay can't the 1 train make a double stop at SF, 5 cars each time, like Metro-North occasionally does at short platforms? Let out the first 5 cars as usual, then the T/O advances the train to a marker in the tunnel results in the last five cars being on the platform. Then the C/R opens the last 5 cars from his position at the middle of the train.
Double stops add to the time it takes to get a train through there, thereby reducing the amount of trains that can get through per hour.
Is this five-cars-open, five-car-locked REALLY that much of a problem?
I mean, how many people each day use South ferry station as their destination and get off successfully -- versus how many did not listen to announcements, etc., and go back north?
Should be easy enough to stand on the platform for a few hours on a random day and see how many people are banging on the locked doors as the train pulls out. Remember, this thread started when Todd Glickman reported seeing a bunch of tourists doing just that.
Are all Montauk/Patchogue Train run thur Hickville and Bethpage or they will just run express on the Babylon Branch?
most go on the montauk branch which goes over the entire babylon branch. the ones that go via the mainline (Hollis, Queens Village) they run mostly during rush hours or whenever they are sent that direction. the way you can tell if it is going that way is, if you are at jamaica and you hear that it is stopping at "Mineola and Babylon". if Babylon is the next stop from jamaica, Odds are its going over the south shore next to laurelton, Rosedale, Valley stream, etc.
The Hicksville-Babylon route was useful when I lived in Levittown, and when I lived in Babylon and my parents still lived in Levittown. Or at least the route would have been useful if it ran a lot more frequently, and if you could find out the information directly from a single timetable. As it is, you have to do some detective work with the Port Jefferson and Montauk Branch timetables. I don't think that even the timetables on the MTA website show that service directly.
:-) Andrew
Well whatdya know, they have it now!
:-) Andrew
...and I just picked up a printed Montauk line timetable from Penn Station, and whatdya know! It now has Hicksville on it!
Now that it's completely useless to me, of course!
:-D Andrew
Well it be useful to me if Hicksville is my home station and if someone wanted to go east.
So the Hicksville-Babylon route is not being used a lot?
Only a few trains per day.
:-) Andrew
Actually most are routed through the Babylon Branch.
Sure looks it to me:
Looks like GE was advertizing on the competition's cars at one point. Wonder how much that spot ran for, prime location, right between the front door and the cab. Letseee, that picture was taken in 1981, perhaps a Graffiti artist who was finding that the entire 70s spent painting murals on subway cars don't put food on the table or paint cans in the hand, so he decided to get with the "Me" Generation and sell himself out as a freelance billboard maker. I'm guessing he's in marketing now, probably gots hisself his own company on times square or somewhere!
Betcha it says "Westinghouse", or maybe "Adtranz" (psychic rich graffiti artist turned corporate bigwig?) further back.
That is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
I guess you must have a lot of time on your hands to come up with something like that.
What station is that?
Newkirk Image's 2003 calendar reviewed.
Paul Matus rocks !! Thanx !
Bill "Newkirk"
Another one for the books.... Welcome 6916-20 and 7086-90, in service as of today, 12/4/02. It's on the 5 getting ready for the PM Rush.
-Stef
Why not? Lets face it, the 2nd Avenue subway will not be built anytime soon and east side mass transit is a disaster. The bus line that runs along 2nd Avenue is not the answer because buses have to share the traffic lanes with other vehicular traffic.
Has there ever been a proposal for some kind of light rail service on 2nd Avenue? Light rail cars, 21st century trolleys, really, could run along dedicated portions of the roadway on 2nd Avenue and make the same stops that a 2nd Avenue subway line would have made. It could be built for a fraction of the cost of the 2nd Avenue line and would definitely have a positive impact on the congestion on the Lex because it would give east side residents an alternative to walking to the Lex.
Why?
with the butcher job they did on the newark subway, I really wouldn't want to see any sort of light rail around town.
Light rail is not the answer for busy manhattan streets.
first it will take away parking on 2nd avenue which would not be popular with shop keepers and residents.
second. It would require people in the subway to emerge to the streets
thrird it will block off two lanes of traffic which would make getting around in manhattan that more difficult
fourth it would be only marginally faster then buses. A much better idea is to inforce the bus lanes. and possible look into using bus rapid transit which coordinated the traffic lights with bus schedules and allows busses to delay lights from turning red if the bus is nearing the intersection
Bus lane enforcement can be done utilizing digital camera's on hte fron tof buses to take pictures of cars illegally in bus lanes.
Sounds like a sensible low-cost option.
Local 100 has preposed this as a way to save money by reducing delays and fuel costs
In LA they call the service metro rapid
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/projects/losangeles.html
Bus Rapid Transit only works if 1,traffic is light or prevented from sharing lanes, 2 volumes are much smaller than 2nd Ave. Having lived in Manhattan, and having recently sampled the Wilshire (LA) Red Bus , the latter is good, BUT Wilshire at 4PM on a Friday is not very clogged with traffic. You would have to insist on a dedicated lne as well as signal preempts, AND run buses so close together the labor costs wuld pay for station agents in a subway. This is really dismaying to see people try to disunderstand over a century of experience because the oil/auto crooks have a hammerlock on funding. The NECCESSITY of grade separated ROW was demostrated begining in October 1904. The mistakes of the last half century notwithstanding, rail transit IS BETTER.
(A much better idea is to inforce the bus lanes. and possible look into using bus rapid transit which coordinated the traffic lights with bus schedules and allows busses to delay lights from turning red if the bus is nearing the intersection)
Forget it. If it is to take the place of the 2nd Avenue, there will be so many buses that one will always be nearing the intersection. The problem with light rail is the same as the problem with buses -- intersections. Not a problem in less congested places, but next to worthless in Manhattan.
There are two locations I think BRT should be implemented. One is Staten Island, which is not dense enough for rail but whose bus service should be greatly improved. The second is "crosstown" routes, which also do not attract enough passengers for rail. I'd like to see the M60 converted to BRT with more frequent service, less frequent stops, and service extended on to Flushing then down to Jamaica. If we aren't going to do the full Airtrain, or the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, we should at least do that.
IMHO, a very effective way to speed up bus service, would be POP system and multiple doors. Especially on M15 limited, the dwell time is probably the main cause for delays.
Arti
"the dwell time is probably the main cause for delays."
has bus shelter where riders pay thier fare in the structure ever been concidered for busy intersections. Riders would swipe thier metrocards go through a heet. These structures would need to be closed during non peek hours to avoid becoming a homeless shelter.
I once timed the dwell time at 34th street at 4 and half minutes one day/ I still don't understand why someone would take a bus north south in manhattan unless they are handicap and unable get down to the train platform. The MTA should focus its effors on making every station ADA compatible in manhattan and eliminate most redundent bus routes
buses are useful for many trips. It is occasionally faster for short hops than walking down a flight or two, swiping a gate and then walking further down plus reversing the process at the other end. While the dwell you cite is long, it is not uncommon I suspect.
BTW, buses are FAR preferable during 'heat waves' as waiting at street level is more pleasant than underground in the saunas.
Buses do have an advantage at times. But does the advantage justify the additinal cost of operating the service when adequete alternatives exits
During heat waves I have taken buses for short distances where staying cool takes preference to time.
Larry, I doubt that there is enough track capacity let alone fleet, even assuming 30TPH everywhere to absorb bus ridership. The mix of both is highly useful particularly when schleing groceries, or other 'freight'. And we both will be buried before every station is ADA accessible. All that said, we still need the Second Ave Sub, IMHO--and preferably the genuine four track local/express version with the local probably detailed to cover Tompkins Sq Pk and south through the Lower East Side/East Village.
It's wider.
I'm in favor of priority schemes for buses and other methods of speeding up transport, but at present the term "Bus Rapid Transit" is an oxymoron trading of the positive image of rapid transit.
Likewise NYS DOT is trying to obscure its attempt to cover LI with HOV lines by promising RCVs--"Rapid Commute Vehicles"--i.e., buses.
One of the BRT catchlines is "think rail, build bus." Yeah, think steak, eat hamburger.
I agree that bus rpid transit is not a great idea on north south routes in manhattan.
BRT should be evaluated and implimented on lines that make sense. With a system as large as NYCT there will be no one soultion tht works well everywhere. It seems that TA management is looking for such solutions. One good example is automated bus tracking and diapatching which faild because of large building in Manhattan. This automated system could be implimented only at depots where possible. Even if only half the depots could utilize the system it would still be a larger deployment then most other mass transit operations around the country
I can sum it in one word (5 letters actually) NIMBY.
Unless you give LRVs pre-emtpive rights at most intersections, create boarding platforms and shelters, and spend years building reserved tracks and overhead wires, this won't fly. It will also require taking away one parking lane to provide a contra flow LRV lane for northbound vehicles, presumably on the east curb.
Limited stop buses using exclusive, enforced lanes, and articulated buses, will provide the same service at a fraction of the cost. Although I'm a light rail fan, Manhattan avenues are not the place for light rail. Rail transit only works in Manhattan if it is underground or overhead.
Whether it's LRT or BRT, this much is clear:
ANY measure that takes ANY curb space, moving lanes, or signal time away from private autos will NOT be politically tenable. The community boards won't support it, and DOT (the Department Opposed to Transit) won't implement it.
You're probably right.
And that's pretty sad, given how few New Yorkers (especially Manhattanites) own cars and how many more people ride the M15, even in its current form, than drive or take cabs down 2nd Avenue.
Let's say (I'm making up a number here) 75% of the people traveling on 2nd Avenue are on buses. Then the DOT has no business objecting until the bus lanes take up more than 75% of the width of the avenue.
Then again, I'm a hardliner: I also think that, when train service is suspended over the Williamsburg Bridge (usually due to road work on one of the adjacent roadways), two of the remaining bridge roadways should be set aside for shuttle buses only. It's bad enough that subway passengers have to transfer to and from the bus; they shouldn't also have to sit in a traffic jam. Motorists who don't like the resulting traffic can park the car and get on the bus.
"Let's say (I'm making up a number here) 75% of the people traveling on 2nd Avenue are on buses."
I'm sorry to say you are making up the number. Each lane can handle maybe a vehicle per 3 seconds (a vehicle per 1.5 seconds is maximum density, but all sorts of things prevent maximum density). With 30 seconds red light and 60 green and 3 usable lanes, that's 60 vehicles per 90 seconds, or 40 per minute, or probably 50 people per minute in private vehicles.
There's one bus every 2.5 minutes. With the severe bunching, the first bus is packed and the third is empty, so say 40 passengers per bus maximum, or 16 people per minute in the buses.
I question your figures.
There aren't three usable lanes, thanks to double parkers. There are two.
During rush hour, traffic moves very slowly. There's no way 20 vehicles per lane pass a point of observation each green phase.
If buses run at a 2.5-minute headway, that's not bunching. After accusing me of making a number (which I readily admitted from the start!), you make up the number 40 and declare it a maximum. In fact, the major north-south Manhattan bus routes seem to have an average passenger count of about 40 during rush hour, some a bit lower and others a bit higher.
I have the weekday ridership stats from 1996. (I believe bus ridership has increased since.) During the peak hour in the morning rush, 2nd Avenue had 1654 bus passengers, Lex had 1198, 5th had 2181, and Broadway had 1520.
"I question your figures."
And rightly so. I've overstated the anti-bus lane case. I took a quick jaunt over to 2nd Ave. and counted 32 vehicles in one green light phase and 28 in another, which is half of the 60 I estimated.
Note however that rush hour is not the applicable comparison, since the value of one lane on 2nd Ave for local commerce applies all day long, not just in rush hour. So I still think 40 passengers per bus is reasonable.
But now we're more nearly half bus passengers and half everybody else, which certainly justifies making one lane of 2nd Ave (and also 1 lane of 1st Ave) a dedicated busway. You still have the dwell time problem, but there are pre-pay solutions for that. You also have the cross-traffic problem, which can't easily be solved.
Thanks.
The appropriate comparison is whatever time of day the loss of a lane or two would hamper traffic flow. That means rush hour, predominantly.
One lane isn't enough. If it isn't physically divided from the rest of the avenue, other traffic will use it. If it is, a stalled bus will close the bus lane entirely. Two lanes.
Many people in cars could choose to take the bus if they felt like it. There isn't room for many more cars. There is room for a lot more buses. Freeing buses from traffic jams gives drivers a big incentive to take the bus, where they can be better accomodated.
How about subway-surface cars, that run underground in Midtown, and exit the tunnel to run on street in outlying areas?
This system is used in Boston (Green Line) & Philadephia (Subway-Suface route 10, 11, 13, 34, & 36).
And also in scores of cities elsewhere in the world, especially Germany.
How about subway-surface cars, that run underground in Midtown, and exit the tunnel to run on street in outlying areas?
Can you run a 10 car train on the surface of a street?
This system is used in Boston (Green Line) & Philadephia (Subway-Suface route 10, 11, 13, 34, & 36).
Two systems that really cannot compare with NYCT.
My aplogies if I haven't replied to messages since last Friday. I've had lots of internet problems since then, but they are fixed now (hopefully). -Nick
I just got this alert from the Downtown Alliance:
It is anticipated that there will be residual delays in service on the Lexington Avenue IRT in Manhattan due to a person under the #4 Train at West 176th Street and Jerome Avenue in the Bronx.
Don't you mean ON 176st and Jerome Ave.
Police report that the 20 Y/O woman jumped & killed herself after stabbing her baby to death. Sad, sick story !!!!!!!!
Police report that the 20 Y/O woman jumped & killed herself after stabbing her baby to death. Sad, sick story !!!!!!!!
Considering what it would have cost the taxpayers to keep her in Bedford Hills or Pilgrim State for the next 20+ years, I'd say she did everyone a favor.
>>Considering what it would have cost the taxpayers to keep her in Bedford Hills or Pilgrim State for the next 20+ years, I'd say she did everyone a favor.<<
Actually wat she did warrented the death sentence. And lethal injection makes 20 years of Pilgrim State look like buying food from McDonalds.
I boarded a NB 5 at 42 around 4:00. Even though it was a 5, the C/R made good announcements and kept us updated. Apparently, 4 trains were turning at 149-GC. This created an awful jam -- we crept all the way from 86 to 125, even though service had been resumed by the time we got to 103.
While stopped at 138, I noticed something unusual. There was a 4 train on the middle track, but it was moving south! In the afternoon rush that track is usually used by NB 4 trains, and given the then-recent restoration of service north of 149 and backlog south of 125, I'd expect that NB 4 trains would be using every track they could get their wheels on.
It gets worse - apparently (this according to Fox 5 News at 10) a woman who lives in the area stabbed her 11-month-old baby to death and then, despondent, jumped into the path of the #4 train at 176 Street station. Channel 7 is broadcasting the story as I speak.
wayne
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/amtr12042002.htm
Unless the contracted firm suddenly goes "whoops we encountered unexpected costs" and then begs for more money. I hope the MBTA gets the royal screw job out of this.
Huh? Please explain.
Amtrak decided NOT to bid on the contract, refusing to accept liability for its actions. So there are two qualified bidders now, and the MBTA will make its award soon so that there is at least a six-month transition period.
We MBTA commuters just want a safe, comfortable, reliable commute at a fair price. What else would you suggest?
Like they're not getting screwed now? The lazy conductors aren't collecting tickets (thus depriving the MBTA of income), service quality is start to slip, the MBTA - Amtrak relationship has become increasingly hostile, and frankly, even without Amtrak getting it's contract renewed, they're going to need a good shove out from the MBTA. The big worry is that Amtrak might intentionally screw up any transition to another contractor.
What are you talking about??
Amtrak is providing poor service as is.
Why don't you go up to Boston and have a heart attack on the commuter rail and see what happens??
If that incident could reflect at all upon Amtrak then it just showed that they are not willing to cave into a single indivuduals needs at the expence of everyone. Sides, most people agreed that the EMS options were probably about equal given location of hospitals and traffic and whatever the crew had done they guy wouldh ave been toast anyway.
I saw it yesterday. It was running express announcing the stops. Now if only they had the strip map for west side service and vice versa for the 2 when it's running up the east side.
Check out this photo!
--Brian
Hey look ! Jakarta has Redbirds !!]
Bill "Newkirk"
But apparently they must not be GOH Redbirds, since they still have the drop sash window instead of the tilt-in ones (or it could be where the MTA sent those GOHed Redbird R-30s, I guess...)
Some of the R-26/28/29's never got the tilt-in windows.
Speaking of which, 7925 was at Unionport this evening (I couldn't see what was coupled to it -- another train was in the way), signed as a 2! When was 7925 last used in 2 service?
This will be your typical train on the Lex Ave IRT during rush hour in 2010 (after completion of the East Side Access project)!!!!!
That's why I aspire to be a Reuters/AP world news photographer...
I guess I can't complain about the LIRR's cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons any more!
I hope the poor guy doesn't have to change at Jamaica!
6896-6900 are on the property as of tonight.
No signs of 7121-25. If they aren't on the property, they should arrive hopefully tomorrow night.
-Stef
Is 7111-2-3-4-5 in yet?
Just curious, 7111's a lucky number of mine. I remember the R21 of same number very well.
wayne
Those came last week.
-Stef
I noticed something very interesting today at 110th on the 1/9. On the downtown side, the some of the big mosaics say Cathedral Parkway. (note the period) and some only same Cathedral Parkway (without the period). Bizzare...
-Jeff
Is thje difference in spelling at one end of the station vs the middle? If so it couidl eb later when the station was lengthened? The station is int he early, early renovation stages.
nope, i think it was spelled exactly the same way, the only difference was the period.
-Jeff
Maybe I posted the reply wrong. I know the spelling is the same. Let's speak only about the periods (.)
Arte they towards the middle or towards one end or both ends and not int he middle?
The original tablets have the periods.
wayne
The $64,000 question is: why were they put there in the first place?
Has anyone ever solved the "Beverley"/"Beverly" Road thing?
I think someone didn't know how to spell "Beverly".
If it said "Pkwy" then a period, that wouldn't be so bad but with the whole entire word WITH a period it is strange but I wouldn't find that to be bizarre.
Earlier someone reported a 12-9 on the 4, I may have found out what that 12-9 was.
A woman in the Bronx killed her child before jumping in front of the train to escape going to prison. This is coming from Fox 5.
So THAT's why there was no 4 service to BPB!! STUPID SELFISH PIGS!!!!! Does she not realize how her actions screw over countless others!!!!!
What do PIGS have to do with all this?
A woman kills herself after she murdered her child and all you care about is that the #4 was delayed????!!!!
I don't condone what she did but FlyerLover - you need help badly.
Ya know, she's not the only one with problems.
>>>>Does she not realize how her actions screw over countless others!!!!!<<<
Yeah, I'm sure that's what she was thinking. Not. Get a grip!
Peace,
ANDEE
That comment was extremely unnecessary and you only care about a 4 train delay, that was a very childesh comment. So if it was delayed, find a alternative way to get where you need to go >:-o!
And you don't even have any concern for the poor baby that was murdered by her mother BEFORE she became a 12-9 on the #4 line. SELFISH
I totally agree. All these people want is to attract attention before they make 'The Final Leap.' Oh boo-hoo. She's not the only one with problems. I'm sure many people who take that delayed 4 have to feed starving families or get home from a hard day of work or school, full of pressure and unwanted stress.
If this woman wants to leave this world, she should've taken a pill and let the child live.
About two years ago, WMATA put their entire severe weather emergency plan on their website. Naturally, I saved it on my computer. It is complete with train frequencies, number of trains, where trains will turn back if necessary, where scrape and spray operations will take place, station closings, the "Early Out" release plan, and identified problems for buses as well as alternate routes. It is a HTML file which I will send to you if you request it by e-mailing me.
Were are the PCC that are in the Newest Images section from. What City I meen.
Robert
Were are the PCC that are in the Newest Images section from? What City I mean.
Kenosha, Wisconsin
A friend of mine rode an R62A 7 Express train towards Flushing this evening, and happened to glance into the motorman's cab between 74th-Broadway and 82nd-Jackson Heights. What he saw was a bit unusual, as the LCD speedometer displayed 67 MPH. I knew R62A's were fast, but didn't think they were that fast. Doesn't the R62A have a top speed of 55MPH? And also, is there a speed limit on the Flushing Express line? By the way, my friend said the train only went 67 MPH for a few seconds before gradually decelerating back down to the high-mid 50's before appraoching Junction Blvd.
The speedometrs on the redbirds and 62's at times give innaccurate readings. I'm sure the tech's on this board can explain what happens. The indicated speed will jump up and then gradually come back down to the accurate reading. Had a speedometer once read 35 while stopped in a station.
Played the BVE simulator on the 7 route on my computer and hit 104.
Yeah, I've done that too!
That's in km/h though.... Its not in mph
No subway train here in NYC could hit 67mph at the moment[well there may be a miniscule chance] plus most times the max in a R62A is 55-60mph but I don't think there is any straightaways that would allow 55 mph[unless you put them on the A in the straightaway portion, the reading of 67mph is a malfunction or a km/h reading[if that exists on a subway speedometer].
You can go 60+ in some of the east river tubes. The 63rd St tunnel and the 60th Street (The one used by the N/R)tunnel are good (And I think the only) examples. And it all depends how well the equipment operates
I am offering The Bullits Again For Download, Please Send Your Requests To Me By E-mail and I Will Send The File.
What are "The Bullits"?
>>> What are Bullits?
The font that has the subway line letters in approptiately colored circles.
and is copyrighted by the MTA.
Thank You
A misspelled word?
I have seen all the weather posts ont his site. Now I have created a yahoo group for weather-- Its is called Weather_talk.
* Your group information:
Group name: weather_talk
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weather_talk
Group email address: * Your group information:
Group name: weather_talk
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weather_talk
Group email address: weather_talk@yahoogroups.com
to subscribe use the e-mail adress: weather_talk-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Todd: IO am specifically inviting you to join!
Several months ago, the Bombardier R-142's were the whipping boy of this board. While undergoing teething pains with brake problems, pull aparts and other miscellaneous things, one could hear names like Bombajunk, BOMBbardier etc.
All is quiet, with Stef reporting new deliveries almost daily. What's your thoughts on the R-142 now ? Are any being withdrawn from service to have a Redbird fill in like months ago ? Any big problems now ?
Bill "Newkirk"
A quiet stretch does not make them good cars. The R-44/46's also went through some quiet times in the '70s but they were considered trouble overall.
I havent seen a redbird in a good while. At least on the #2
Weeel, it goes like this (Unka) Bill Newkirk Sir...
We's just a-waiting for them sparklin armadillos
to go knockin over their kibble... before we call
to action anotha' round of Bombajunk yard wars...
(Sorry folks, the cranberry juice talkin' tonite..)
:)
The day after Thanksgivng I rode the M-7's for the first time. As the 6:04PM Ronk out of Flat, I was impressed bythe interior appointments and quiteness. However, the ride wasn't as quiet as posted. Flat wheels !.......blame this on brake problems, wet leaves on rails or making panic stops at full speed while testing ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When I took my ride on em, about 2 weeks ago, it had squeaky wheels. Flat wheels as result?
I wonder if it's just wet spots or a little oil somehow on the rails.
Out here in California, we hear PLENTY of Metrolink Bombardier commuter cars with flat spots....and there aren't any trees out here!!! The flat spots all appeared the day after it rained last week (the first rain in a year....)
I just want to know for a friend dose the M-7 always do the 6:04pm from Flatbush to Ronk. That the line he rides to and from work. He would like to ride it one day.
Robert
>>I just want to know for a friend, does the M-7 always do the 6:04pm from Flatbush to Ronk. That the line he rides to and from work. He would like to ride it one day. <<
I last saw them at Bethpage on Tuesday evening about 6:55PM. I assume they run every weekday. Just tell your friend to take a chance and drop by at Flatbush. That's what I did.
Bill "Newkirk"
I posted this on BusTalk yesterday.
The Brothers & Sisters of Local 100, at the "private" bus depots, voted yesterday on whether or not to leave the Local. The majority voted to stay with Roger. The loosers have formed a group called "Opposite Directions" .... that's a joke :-(
" .... that's a joke :-( "
But then so is Roger.
If they had won it may have not been the best thing for them, now that they lost it will be even worse, i.e. Roger won't punish them for their disloyality .... NOT
What you fail to understand is that people really have no choice but to sign a petition Jennings puts in front of them and to shut up about it.
My seniorty is fixed over in the private companies the Union can change your seniority so once you elect someone to office they own you.
I won't agree with that.
The guys/gails who take a position in the TWU usually do so for a short time because the membership tends to loose faith in them or the person gets tired of the B.S. of the job (from the members as well as the company).
As an old Teamster, they tend to stay longer in the job, so there if you don't pick a good one, you can get very uphappy with the job they do.
It all has to do with how much you realy care about the job that's being done. I became a shop steward representing 50 people. I was a real pain in the ass to management as well as the union (I would ask why a lot ... I got involved in a action to stop a dues increase ... I made the company hire an afternoon & midnight shift for a group that supplied parts to A/C under maintance over night).
What has George done that has been so bad ?
Why hasn't someone run against him ?
At this depot I personally like the guys in that job now, that's saying a lot for someone in management.
I did not say George did anything bad. I am saying if you cross him and lose things might get unpleasant for you.
The fact that members in public voted Roger out but in private kept him in shows that people may fear George more than they hate Roger.
This election was the subject of an item in The Chief. The thrust of the article was that Sonny Hall, because of his dislike for Roger T. refused to intervene and delay the election. The feeling was that the election was diverting Rogers attention from the contract negotiations and Sonny Hall felt that sacraficing this contract to rid the TWU of Roger and his merry men was a fair trade-off, much tot he benifit of the union in the long run.
Here in southcentral PA near the Maryland line, we awoke to a covering of white. At 8:30, we already have about three inches of snow, and it is still falling.
Watch out New York City, it's coming your way!
Just started to stick at 7:30am here in Long Island City. Don't tell BMTMan, he'll just roll over and go back to sleep.
Just one last reminder- jopin weather_talk.
URL: weather_talk#yahoogroups.com
I am the moderator of this group which discusses all facets of weather. I already invited our resident weather guru, Todd.
Well this time it's more than a squall! :)
There is at least three inches in Hastings-on-Hudson where I'm from. I'll probably wind up with 5 to 6 inches when it is all said and done.
#3 West End Jeff
The roads have not been plowed very well here in DC. The trucks can't keep up with the snow!
But Metrorail is running well so far -- a friend of mine took it up to Rockville a little while ago without any delays.
Plus a few delays on MARC and VRE.
There were 10 minute delays on the Red Line around Fort Totten at about 8AM according to the news. My coworker took the Blue Line from Van Dorn and transferred to the Orange Line at Rosslyn and had some delays due to icing of the doors. The Orange Line my g/f rode from Ballston to Rosslyn took over 20 minutes due to the doors sticking as well.
I tried to go to work today, but after 30 minutes waiting for the 1C, gave up and decided that I had enough leave to take off today. I feel bad for those that really have to be at work today.
Be careful out there!
It's coming down nicely here in Manhattan.
A perfect day to test drive (ahem) my new digital camera!
Please pass some of those pics along to those of us that are less fortunate, will ya?
-Jeff
Jeff,
Would you please e-mail me explicit instructions on how to attach a pic to a post, please keep it simple if possible---our local "scenic railroad" just so happens to have old LIRR cars in their yard. Judging by the markings, I'd say they were taken out of use in the late 70's. Anyhow, I'd be more than happy to take some pics and post them.
Mark
You need to uopload your pics to a web server, sorry, I don't know any for the general public. After you upload your pics and you can view them in your browser, type this EXACTLY into your post:
<img src="http://www.url.com">
And your pic should come up.
Certainly. Give me an hour or so.
Here in the far reaches of Western Maryland---I'd say we have about 6 inches of snow and it's still coming down like crazy. They're calling for an ADDITIONAL 3-6 inches. Interstate 68 used to be a 2/3 lane paved highway, now it's a very wide-snow covered path. Thank goodness for 4-wheel drive
"Thank goodness for 4-wheel drive"
Just remember that 4WD vehicles don't have any better ability to stop than 2WD vehicles. You have to be able to stop for the 2WD guy in front of you who stops rapidly in a sideways skid.
You are sooooo right---where it really pays off is when you're going up hill...
Stop?? Just drive over top of him with your SUV.
Here in Ithaca, NY, the snow is coming down as very fine flakes. But it is finally starting to add up! Too bad the 4 or 5 inches we already had, melted a bit yesterday.
--Brian
Ithaca, my old stomping grounds. I still remember that unreliable TCAT service when I was out there for school. And I hated how they had one hour lunch and dinner breaks that suspended service.
It must be blizzarding up there in NYC today. The QBP webcam is showing all white.
http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=54&server=RS2&address=Queens+Plaza+N+%40+Queens+Boro+Bridge
Yeah, but not in Ithaca. Futher south you go, the more snow you got (this time).
Hey Doobie Doobie Do, I just stepped out to see for myself and the sun is out and shining brightly, the sky is clear blue and there is a nice little chill in the air. Typical of fabulous Southern California weather. Ever thought of coming out here to live? Believe me, it's God's Country--California.
It's sunny in Denver today, too. Funny thing - yesterday it snowed everywhere else in Colorado except Denver. The sun came out at about mid-morning.
I was just checking out the weather channel website---and it looks as though we're in for more white stuff around Wednesday of next week.
Well battan down the hatches and good luck guys. I hear we may get some rain.
Get your caboose back here (the east coast) and freeze with the rest of us!!!!
As I write this it's 14 degrees in downtown Baltimore, 10 or below in the burbs.
Tomorrow (12/7) Tinsel Trolley starts at BSM. We get to turn the shop into "Santa's Workshop - Baltimore Division". That includes shoveling the snow off the shop platform. Weather forecast is temps in the low 40's tomorrow.
Gee, thnaks for the tip < G >
it stopped here in northern nj.(near newark) now the work begins. hope the snow blower works!!
Was my lucky day. My neighbor got home before be & had already made two passes down my side walk with his snow blower.
Later that night I pushed my shovel down his sidewalk to return the favor.
Radioactive patients set off subway alarms
12:55 05 December 02
Emma Young
Americans undergoing radioactive medical treatments risk setting off anti-terrorism sensors in public places, and subsequent strip searches by police, warn doctors at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York.
A 34-year-old patient who had been treated with radioactive iodine for Graves disease, a thyroid disorder, returned to their clinic three weeks later complaining he had been strip-searched twice in Manhattan subway stations. Christopher Buettner and Martin Surks report the case in a letter to the Journal of the American Medical Association.
"Police had identified him as emitting radiation and had detained him for further questioning. This patient's experience indicates that radiation detection devices are being installed in public places in New York City and elsewhere," the doctors write.
Buettner and Surks contacted the Terrorism Task Force of the New York City Police Department to determine how to prevent other patients being detained.
A letter describing the isotope used and its dose, its biological half-life and the date and time of treatment, plus a 24-hour contact telephone number for the patient's physician should help, the police said.
But even in the best-case scenario, a patient will have to wait while the contents of the letter are verified, say the doctors. "They may choose not to use public transportation to avoid this inconvenience," they write.
Journal reference: Journal of the American Medical Association (vol 288, p 2687)
Sheesh - talk about "Glowing in the dark"
I wouldn't mind having the contract supplying the NYPD with adult diapers.
I've run into this myself, over two years ago... on Amtrak, preparing to cross the border into Canada. I had been hospitalized with heart problems a couple of weeks earlier and had been given radioactive isotopes as part of a stress test; the US Border Patrol inspecting the train detected the radiation and asked questions, but that was all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
Last summer before I retired, the NYPD Pension Section recommended all potential retirees to take a thallium stress test to see if we were eligible for the heart bill. After taking it, the doctor gave me a note to hold for a week to show anyone if I get stopped for radiation. They did say it was mainly for bridges and tunnels, not for subways.
Last summer before I retired, the NYPD Pension Section recommended all potential retirees to take a thallium stress test to see if we were eligible for the heart bill.
Taxpayer dollars at work.
["Taxpayer dollars at work"]
Nope, Pete, this Thallium stress test wasn't even covered by my HIP coverage. I paid $650 out of my own money.
But Jeff, isn't the reason for taking a Thallium test just because you were retiring to possibly increase your pension, which is taxpayer dollars. It's like gambling $650 for an extra $X per month per life.
I wonder what percentage of the Thallium tests do show heart problems?
That is a gamble nobody would want to win!! Sure, the pension would be about $75,000 tax free which would be great, like winning lotto, but it would come with a heart condition and triple bypasses. Besides, life expectancy would be so much less it would be a lot more profitable in the long run to get a regular pension!!!
I guess my question is: how much heart disease does there have to be for the in-service disability pension to apply. I don't know what the limits are, but if it's just something like elevated cholesterol, 10% clogging of the arteries or similar minor heart problems, then that would be unfair.
I guess my question is: how much heart disease does there have to be for the in-service disability pension to apply. I don't know what the limits are, but if it's just something like elevated cholesterol, 10% clogging of the arteries or similar minor heart problems, then that would be unfair.
I suspect it isn't much. Sgt. Jeff originally said that all retiring police officers were being urged to have this radioactive test to see if they might qualify for the heart-disease pension. That seems to imply that the pension is available to people without any obvious symptoms.
As I said, our tax dollars at work.
I suspect that the test would show many of us in the 40's and 50's (like you, me and Sarge) have some heart-related problems, although mostly minor. If that's enough to get you a 75,000 tax free pension (proabably equivalent to 120,000 taxable), then that's just not right.
Well then, come here, where minor heart problems will have you "Restricted, No Work Available". I just went through a blizzard of tests back in May, because a TA-administered EKG gave me a resting heartbeat of 58/min. After two additional EKGs, blood tests, stress test and echocardiogram came back negative for heart problems, they grudingly let me continue to work. The outside doctors, meanwhile, wished they could always find a 40 year old in as good shape as I was.
Well then, come here, where minor heart problems will have you "Restricted, No Work Available". I just went through a blizzard of tests back in May, because a TA-administered EKG gave me a resting heartbeat of 58/min. After two additional EKGs, blood tests, stress test and echocardiogram came back negative for heart problems, they grudingly let me continue to work. The outside doctors, meanwhile, wished they could always find a 40 year old in as good shape as I was.
I don't understand. Isn't 58bps at rest excellent? I got this from This site
AGE
20 - 29 yrs
30 - 39 yrs
40 - 49 yrs
50 + yrs
MEN
Excellent
under 60
under 64
under 66
under 68
Good
60 - 69
64 - 71
66 - 73
68 - 75
Fair
70 - 85
72 - 87
74 - 89
76 - 91
Poor
over 85
over 87
over 89
over 91
WOMEN
Excellent
under 70
under 72
under 74
under 76
Good
70 - 77
72 - 79
74 - 81
76 - 83
Fair
78 - 94
80 - 96
82 - 98
84 - 100
Poor
over 94
over 96
over 98
over 100
That's what I've always thought, the lower the better.
Apparently, too low of a resting pulse is a signal for some types of heart problems -bradycardias. The cut off is 60bps. And since the TA loves to put people out for the slightest little problem...
The TA Doctor's final statement as I left was, "That's all right. we'll get you next year."
I suspect that the test would show many of us in the 40's and 50's (like you, me and Sarge) have some heart-related problems, although mostly minor. If that's enough to get you a 75,000 tax free pension (proabably equivalent to 120,000 taxable), then that's just not right.
I'd say you are quite right. This talk reminds me of something I heard several years ago when I lived in Connecticut. Like New York, Connecticut has a law that allows police officers and firefighters to retire early on lucrative pensions if they have heart disease or high blood pressure, even though the conditions may be quite minor. This so called "heart and hypertension" law was and is very costly to the state. A politician suggested, at least somewhat seriously, that only women should be hired as police officers and firefighters because their lower incidence of heart disease would save the state many millions of dollars a year.
I wish NY would give 3/4 for hypertension. Then I would qualify!
I'm not positive but I would think it would have to be a serious heart condition. Most people who get the heart bill get it after a heart attack. By the way, I've heard of instances where people took the thallium stress test just for retirement and it saved their life.
Pardon my stupidity, but what's a thallium test?
Peace,
ANDEE
Pardon my stupidity, but what's a thallium test?
As far as I know, it's some sort of heart test that involves injecting a person with a radioactive substance. Presumably the amount of radiation is too low to cause illness, though it's enough to trigger radiation alarms in the subway.
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
Radioactive tracers are used to help define organ function, to check for inflammation or damage to an organ (example: nuclear scan for testicles after you get kicked in the groin or fall off your bike etc.; another example: bone scan to look for infections or cancer).
If I recall correctly, sometimes a patient will have to "bag" urine for the first few times after the test or treatment is over because the water department doesn't want "hot" substances to be washed into the sanitary sewer. It depends on the isotope and the dose; I'm not familiar with the most recent policy on that.
We all have radiation coming from us. Some just have more than others :)
Tells you something about the sensitivity of the sensors. I wonder what the threshold is. For example gas lantern mantles contain radioactive Throium and many naturally occuring rocks can be radioactive (who do you think Radon is the #2 cause of lung canser in the US). Many nuclear powerplants have to scower their grounds for naturally radioactive rocks because they set off federal inspectors instruments and can result in fines. The fact that the rocks in the parking lot are more radioactive than the power plant makes you wonder why nuclear power has such a bad name.
The fact that the rocks in the parking lot are more radioactive than the power plant makes you wonder why nuclear power has such a bad name.
Because people don't understand it. BTW, the natural radioactive levels of the Capitol building violate the EPA's standards for the still in planning Yucca mountain project. It's only the insistence of the typically braindead environmentalists that's holding it up -- in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years. There's no need to worry about storing the stuff for 'thousands of years'.
There's a great film online (54 megs, I have the url somewhere) that while poor in quality, shows a lot of footage of the cleanup of Three Mile Island, including in core photos of what happened. It's amazing, really. They totally wasted the reactor core and yet there were zero deaths (and in fact., no evidence of increased caner rates either) from the accident.
BTW, the natural radioactive levels of the Capitol building violate the EPA's standards for the still in planning Yucca mountain
This is to be expected, given the high concentration of Congresscritters and their attendant lobyists and thier spew of vapid rhetoric.
Elias
Radioactive levels? I thought it was more like toxic waste!
"in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years"
I knew that didn't sound right to me. A quick google search shows the half life of Uranium 235 is 700 million years.
"in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years"
I knew that didn't sound right to me. A quick google search shows the half life of Uranium 235 is 700 million years.
How are these two statements in conflict?
Is spent fuel U 235?
For how long is it dangerous?
What *is* the radiation level of the ore?
Are we speaking of apples and fruitcakes, or is one statement in error?
Frankly I did not know of the 300 year number, and scratched my head and said Huh?
But I didn't look anything up.
Elias
I stand partially corrected, in the details but not the overall conclusion. A google search on spent nuclear fuel says that while there is some U 235 in spent fuel(U 235 is the active ingredient in the original fuel rods), the major radioactive ingredient is the spent fuel is Plutonium 239. The latter has a half life of only 24,000 years. Still a lot more than 300 years.
>>>>"They may choose not to use public transportation to avoid this inconvenience," <<<<
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. What are these people supposed to do?
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't know there were subway alarms to detect radioactive materials.
-->pokes you...
There aren't...ones that you are supposed to know about.
I feel for them. I have metal in my left ankle due to being a victim of an auto accident and I often set off metal detectors. Every time I have to go through oen I cringe and advsie the security person before hand and usally wind up being screen with a hand held wand which beeps when they get to my ankle. I show them the scar and let them offer to touich the ankle to feel the metal and they let me pass. Thank goodness I have never had a frisk!
Saw R46 on "E", yesterday AM, first time in a while...
yea its very rare. it happens mostly mondays, because since V dont run, some V become E. and its Rare. i even saw a R32 on the R and the R46 on the E
Monday's? The V run's on Monday's.You mean on Saturday or Sunday.
The V DOES run on Mondays unless it is a holiday that runs on a Sunday schedule, then it does not.
I haven't seen such a thing in a long time. I would speculate that since R46s are needed for the (G) and (V), which must be ALL R46, and since there have been new R32s sent to Jamaica (really Kew Gardens Hills, but who's counting) Yard from Coney Island, there are enough R32s to make the (E) all R32 most of the time, and the R46s are needed elsewhere. The (F) and (R) are now mostly R46 with some R32s.
:-) Andrew
I should add that not long ago, the (F) was ALL R46, no matter what, even if using an R32 was necessary to prevent the end of the universe. It's good to see some variety now.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, but if you purposely wait for an R-32 F train to show up, usually you're out of luck. I tried that in October while riding through the 63rd St. tunnel, but time was short and I had to settle for R-46s. Not bad except I couldn't see through the cab door window - it was covered with newspapers.
I have the same problem looking for that lone R32 to show up on the F to take pictures. My last few times at Stillwell came about to be no such luck. Now I have to go somewhere else to hopefully catch an R32 train on the F since Stillwell is closed to renovation until late next year, or sometime in 2004.
I guess they don't have two sets of the R46 set aside for the E train anymore, especially with the addition of the V line. -Nick
R46 on the E is no stranger to every longtime E rider. The "R46 on the E" has on and off ever since the R32 set their foot in the system. As a E rider to commute to/from work or friend's place. R46 pop up on the E once to fourth time some months before and after the V exist. Don't be surprised when you found out that one or two of the R32 F was burrowed or come from the E. And some of the R32 R was burrowed or come from the N when slants began to dominate N. Just like the current W burrowed some R32 and R40S from N and some R46 from the R. Now, I'm trying to figured out where are the Grand Shuttle R46 fleet comes from?
Excuse my previous response to this topic.
R46 on the E is no stranger to every longtime E rider. The "R46 on the E" has been on and off ever since the R32 set their foot in the system. As a E rider to who usually commute to/from work or friend's place. R46 pop up on the E once to fourth time in some months every year before and after the V exist. The previous reports of R46 sighting on the E was dated back in sometime in March of 2002 (thats is after V existed)Don't be surprised when you found out that one or two of the R32 on the F was burrowed or come from the E. And some of the R32 R was burrowed or come from the N when slants began to dominate N. Just like the current W that burrowed some of R32 and R40S from the N and one or two R46 from the R. Now, I'm trying to figured out where are the Grand Shuttle R46 fleet comes from?
What about that time that the W had a couple of R46 sets back in September?????
what about it?? Seen in september and even sometime in August and july. Who know when or what time the next R46 W train will pop up. Only TA Knows
The Jamaica Yard.
If I'm not mistaken, they come from Coney Island Yard
Cool. The last time I saw a R46 E was when it ran to Brooklyn during the switch replacement at WTC 2 years ago and I'm not kidding. It is basically rare to see that since the R32 is almost exclusive on the E.
You don't ride 8th av daily, do you?
I've seen R46 E's dozens of times since that switch was replaced. It's hardly noteworthy.
Even more interesting: R-38's on the E...
No wonder why some E train car doesn't have the whistle sound. I can tell it must be R38, cause all R38 doesn't have whistle.
The only time you had 38's on the E recently was after 9/11 they used cars out of Pitkin for the E line (running Parsons->Euclid).
"The only time you had 38's on the E recently was after 9/11 they used cars out of Pitkin for the E line (running Parsons->Euclid)."
Really? I recall seeing more R46s on the E in the weeks following 9/11. -Nick
Really? I recall seeing more R46s on the E in the weeks following 9/11. -Nick
I didn't say that 38's made up the majority of E trains. I just said they used 38's. And the first few days (I don't know exactly how many, maybe 2 or 3), they were putting together 10 car sets for the E.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. -Nick
There was another time when R38s ran on the "E". That was when the TA had a GO to replace the crossover just north of the WTC station. I believe it was in the year 2000 and lasted for several weeks. The TA suspended "C" trains, and used "E" trains to replace them between 50th St. and Euclid Ave. During this time, the "E" was about 97% R32s-used all R32s from Pitkin and Jamaica Yards. The other 3% was an R46 or R38. Also during this time, the "B" ran one or two R38s.
Shortly after 9/11 (I believe 9/17) the "E" pretty much was 95% R46s. This lasted until sometime in November when most of the subway lines went back to their normal routing, save for the "1", "2", "3" and "9". Once this happened, you couldn't find an R46 on the "E" for a couple of months. Nowadays, there are ususally 2 or 3 R46s on the "E" at any given time.
The R-38s also ran on the E when they were new. I saw an R-38 E train once during rush hour at 42nd St. in 1968.
And of course in "Coming to America" :)
You of course are right. Inm my post I said 'recently' because I thought that Express was mentioning a time not too far past.
No, it is not an R38. When MK rebuilt the R32s, they did this in 2 phases. The first phase did not have the whistle sound. The second phase did whistle. Somebody on the board will have to explain the mechanics on what causes the whistle sound. Also, all R32s assigned to the "C" is phase one (does not whistle). The "E" has both phases and the "N" only had phase two R32s.
The Phase I and Phase II R-32s have different companies' air brakes (WABCO vs. New York Air Brake).
David
Out of curiousity, it this the same setup for the Mainline R33s?
Yes -- the mainline R-33s were all done at 207th Street, but the order for the braking equipment was split between WABCO and NYAB.
David
Even more interesting: R-38's on the E...
Might have seen one or two.
I was thrilled to see this book by Brian Cudahy rereleased. It has been updated with more pictures, and an intro which talks about 9/11. Has anyone else picked up this book? It's the best PATH book around from, IMHO, the best subway author ever!
It's been out for about a year now... not a bad little book. I had read the original version (borrowed) many years ago and was glad to see it come out again so I could get a copy at a relatively reasonable price.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just grabbed a copy on half.com shipped for 15.74. Thanks for the heads up. I love the new information age.
Don't forget, if you buy items from our Bibliography via Amazon.Com you help support this site.
If you can accept PayPal I'll support this site directly.
I can, now, if you want... pirmann@panix.com is my registered Paypal address.
Thanks Mike!
Dave
I was wondering if there exists a website or program that allows "online scanning" of radio transmission. It would be interesting to listen to the Bus Command Center announcements from home, especially whether or not the TA is providing regular service during such weather. Of course, I could just make a phone call, but the idea of listening to the actual announcements piqued my curiousity.
Does anyone know whether one can use their PC (along with WinMP or RA) to hear actual NYCTA radio transmissions?
Thanks.
(cc: BusTalk)
I don't know of anyone doing this. Streaming audio is not cheap or easy...
Thanks Dave. I found a website that offers free streaming audio of live scanner discussions between Staten Island's NYPD/EMS/FDNY but thus far, no transit related feed.
Does anybody have a screenshot of the subway scene in the "Pope of Greenwich Village" mentioned on the Subway Bibliography page for movies?
(I don't have the video)
Please try to take a shot from the video screen.
Thanks.
To those of you with early reports Plan 4 is in effect for Fri.
Set those alarm clocks.
Is that anything like "Plan 9 from Outer Space"
No. Even NYCT has a bigger budget than Ed Wood! LOL!
(Just noticed your post now).
Lets see the full length G trains!
Unfortunately 4 car would be a full length G now.
I think "full length train" in the Plans is a throwback to the day when you'd have shorter trains depending on time of day.
Just a second, I thought with the coming of 09/08 "G" trains were supposed to be restored to 6 R-46 MU's, at least during weekdays times.
Whats going on with all the 32's being sent from CI to Jamaica? They are in turn sending them ALL to Pitkin? How many has Jamaica retained
What exactly is plan 4? Is that with the trains stored underground and no express service?
Basically, "PLAN 4" requires all trains to lay up underground, where possible (ie,Concourse Line middle track). It also requires all crews to report 3 to 4 hours earlier. Express service is not affected, where possible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you for that report. This being my RDO, I would have never known..............
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
I did you one better, Mike. In a wonderful bit of advance planning, I had today off as an AVA.
I had today as an AVA as well. Thank God! I would have never made it.
So the next time u take an AVA, WATCH OUT!!!!!!! :)
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
A TSS up in Westchester was getting the diesels ready when I happenned to have spoken to him yesterday about mid-day...
Question: Is there a 'Plan 9' and when does THAT go into effect? :)
When you start seeing paper plates 'round your head.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hahahahahaha!!!!! ROTFLMAO!
MTA LIRR Weather Advisory
Thats what I just saw out my window. A m1/3 car (E4501) between two MP15AC's (one of which was 165). I assume hey were snowblowing in the Far Rock line? Cool, eh?
>>Thats what I just saw out my window. A m1/3 car (E4501) between two MP15AC's (one of which was 165). I assume hey were snowblowing in the Far Rock line? Cool, eh?<<
E4501 is an old M-1 converted as an alcohol car. There should be air grates where some windows used to be. Spraying the contact rails with alcohol to prevent ice buildup. The old M-1 isn't self propelled anymore, explaining the two MP-15's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Along with the RPA, another rational voice against the LIRR "supershuttle":
http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bzlia053032370dec05.story
Nut graf:
"Three other transportation projects are more important - Long Island Rail Road access to Grand Central Station, a third track on the LIRR's main line to increase the movement of freight and improvements to Route 347 between Hauppauge and Port Jefferson, said Mitchell Pally, the Long Island Association's vice president for government affairs."
It's one thing to hurt subway riders. But when the supposed beneficiaries are in revolt, Brookfield and their allies have a real problem.
How true. Those "Brookfield" plans looked like the answer to a question no one had ever asked.
The brookfeild plans will potenionally allow it to charge hihger rents thus make billions more in profits. Brookfeild and silverstein have both make a big bet on higher rents in lower manhattan by buying additioal real estate
This reminds me so much of developers who used to come to our design firm in Cincinnati with great ideas for new expressways, for us to help present to the Chamber of Commerce and other high-PR type audiences. Big kawinkidink -- they always had offramps right next to their property.
The Trade Center was originally meant to reopen lower Manhattan. Lower Manhattan needs and is getting diversity, housing, tourism, liveliness, and 24-hour use. When will people realize that the high-rent action and the transit transfers are in Midtown and the only reason for the "tangle" downtown is that it was built 70-100 years ago?
The best LIRR solution would be an extension of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel (using the abandoned section) through Lower Manhattan and up the West Side to Penn Station. That would let EVERY train (even from Port Washington!!) serve both Midtown and Downtown; it would allow for some interesting thru-routing options; and it would free up capacity on connecting subway lines for city-based growth.
Does anybody have a few billion dollars to spare?
(The best LIRR solution would be an extension of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel (using the abandoned section) through Lower Manhattan and up the West Side to Penn Station. That would let EVERY train (even from Port Washington!!) serve both Midtown and Downtown; it would allow for some interesting thru-routing options; and it would free up capacity on connecting subway lines for city-based growth.)
I actually have a better option, and a cheaper one (not the same!). The better one is a "super-suburban connector subway through a new tunnel, up the EAST side as the express tracks of the Second Avenue (which would thus have suburban support for its construction), over to Grand Central (MetroNorth and the Port Washington Branch also gets a super-subway Downtown), the out through another tunnel to Secaucus Transfer (NJ gets a super subway connection to Grand Central). That is essentially the RPA Rx plan. It isn't a one-seat ride, but it is an easy connection to an empty, fast, frequent train with multiple destinations.
The cheaper option is to extend the Atlantic Branch to the Brooklyn Waterfront, dead-ending at a ferry terminal. Given the shortness of the route, private ferries could carry Long Islanders to several spots in Lower Manhattan -- Wall St, South Ferry, Battery Park City -- in a couple of minutes for two bucks or less. Unlike the subway, the ferries would not be jammed with city residents before the Long Islanders boarded, and could be timed to meet the trains (and vice versa).
Of course, neither of these options deposit affluent suburban residents directly at Brookfield'd properties. But they do own BPC, and might go for the ferry option.
"But they do own BPC"
Not that it matters to your suggestion, but Brookfield does not own Battery Park City. BPC Authority is a state agency and owns most of the buildings at BPC. Brookfield owns most but not quite all of the World Financial Center.
(Not that it matters to your suggestion, but Brookfield does not own Battery Park City. BPC Authority is a state agency and owns most of the buildings at BPC. Brookfield owns most but not quite all of the World Financial Center.)
The WFC is part of Battery Park City, is it not? In any event, that's what I meant.
Just wanted to give the posters here a heads up that I have put 42 new nyc subway photos (despite the fact I now reside in Boston) on my website (www.nycrail.com). Included are more than a dozen of the Coney Island reconstruction.
Enjoy,
Harry
Nice photos! The South Ferry link didn't work, though.
Thought I was the only surfer who had problems downloading the SF photos.
Thanks for the comments.
South ferry now works.
Harry
Wow, it's nice to know you're still around Harry! Why'd you move to Boston? :-(
He goes to school there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Harry, Good luck with you mid-terms. When will you be back in town ?
Another friend will be in town from Calif. Maybe we can coor. some railfanning ?
I actually had midterms a month and a half ago... finals are in two weeks though (essentially another set of midterms). I would definetly like to get together for some railfanning, I should be back around the end of December.
I'll be in touch.
-Harry
The Other Side of the Tracks
I've just remembered that the man who first drew the famous diagrammatic map of the London Underground system, in 1933, was called .... Harry Beck. Is Harry in Ithaca his reincarnation?
A) I am Harry in Boston, not Ithaca (that would be Brian).
B) I am not related to him although I occasionally get e-mails from people who think I am...
-Harry
The Other Side of The Tracks
Just watched the abc 7 news. There reports of delay on Major Airports, Metro North (Hudson and New Haven Branch), LIRR, New Jersey Transit, Amtrak and even NEW TRANSIT BUSES and private buses.
LIRR..20 min
New Jersey Transit..15 min
Metro North...10 min
Acela Express Amtrak....20 min
Major Airport (Newark, Dulles, La Guardia, Kennedy)...3 Hours.
All MTA New York City delay because of traffic. Same story with (Queens Surface, Jamaica Buses, ect)
MTA New York City Subway, running smooth with no delays.
So that makes the Subway the safest transportation handling the major weather condition.
WRONG, problems on the W had them backed up north bound. At least one train removed from service ran light with RCI on board, I think it was the 1517 or 1527, not sure.
Yeah, there were Qs running into Jay Street on the Culver from the south, then turning around, at 3:30. There was along wait for the F, which then ran express. My wife took 1:15 to get home after 5:00, rather than the usual 30 minutes.
Ferries are presumably running with no delay. Ferries lost popularity in part due to the weather -- 120 years ago the rivers used to freeze over. Not now. I guess they benefit from global warming.
During 1 winter in the early 90's -- 1993 I think, the Hudson came very close to freezing over. Huge chunks of ice saturated the water and on some cold overnights froze together near each shore.
At that time I took the Hoboken to WFC ferry as part of my daily commute -- the sound the boat made as it scraped against these mini-icebergs was frightening.
I think there were a few days that the ferry couldn't run because there was so much ice.
CG
The NY area Hudson would never freeze. Its got too much flow and is tidal.
At 6:00 I walked thru Hoboken Terminal; ALL trains were being delayed or annulled due to frozen switches. It was as if they'd never dealt with snow before...
hmmm lets see i can see the L train from my window and i dont see them running by very often. a freind told me there were door problems on lorimer on an r143 so dont know how good the L train is running
I think he means in reference to the snow.
all day long i havent seen too many trains running by on the upper level of wilson ave.... and when they do its a turtle goin by lol
Door problem on the R143, that strange! the fleet is new and aready have mechanical problem. It doesn't look good to me.
Its more common than you realise.
hmmm lets see i can see the L train from my window and i dont see them running by very often. a freind told me there were door problems on lorimer on an r143 so dont know how good the L train is running
Actually the Acela express is seeing 2 hours and 15 minute delay.
Delays that bad, and it ain't even worth it.
Which ones? I checked on 2172 at one point (random train) and it was on time (last report from Baltimore).
Acela express from Boston. IIRC it was suppose to come in at 5. This was at 6 oclock so things could of changed.
?? What 2:15 is a fine delay comapred to the Air Shuttle which isn't even running for over 5 hours.
During the 1996 snowstorm, the only public transit system running close to schedule and all night through the storm was
*drum roll*
The Newark City Subway
with 50 year old cars yet.
Who wants to put money on whether the new system out of Newark Penn ran at all today?
My train on the LIRR (5:22 to Ronkonkoma, where I change for Medford) was about 15 minutes late - but not because of the weather. We had to make an unscheduled stop at Floral Park due to a "sick passenger." Your prototypical subway delay, only this time on the LIRR.
According to WCBS Radio's web site: NJT- scattered rail delays especxially ont he Morris and Essex Lines. SEPTA: 15-20 minutes rail delays, PATH 20 minutes delay.
I expect by the AM there will be more delays due to sub freezing weather. I know they have switch heaters but there are always problems. I also expect NJT will not use the center doors on high platform lines causing delays due to congestion.
Fishbowl- can you elaborate why they dont use center doors in snow> IS it due to closing problems due to snow buildup?
speaking of switch heaters- Amtrak uses open natural gas heaters-- it looks like the tracks "are burning" (of course they are not) They sue them near Newark Penn. An especially good view is from the Newark boudn PATH platform at Harrison.
The classic way of keeping points free was to litterally pour oil on the switches and then set them on fire. I have a great pic of an Amtrak train leaving Chicago and passing over blazing switches.
The open/shrouded gas burner was very popular with Conrail and Amtrak. They also use resistance bands on the | part of the rail.
NS, Canadian and Western RR's prefer the hot air blower style point heaters. These have a boxy gas or electric run forced air heater that connect to duct work that runs around the rails to blow hot air on the points.
The 7:30 Delta Shuttle from LaGuardia to Washington this morning had a strange journey. It took off normally, but while in flight the crew found out that DCA had just closed (the storm hit Washington first). The flight turned back to LaGuardia, but before it arrived that airport closed too. Presumably, the passengers were quite dismayed when they ended up in Hartford!
Looks like they should have listened to the "Weatherproof" Acela ads.
List:
For those (like me) who may have wanted views of the ex-Pelham R-62As on the Livonia Ave. El, it appears to now be too late.
If (like me) you've been waiting for something interesting to happen with the R-62s for almost 19 years, you are evidently about to get your wish.
This is shaping up as an interesting weekend on the IRT.
..and don't forget about the ERA Redbird trip on Sunday, either.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Huh? R62s moving to the 3?
This would mean that the R62A's that were assigned to the #3 will be going to the Flushing line, being replaced by Woodlawn's R62's, which will themselves be replaced by newly arrived R142's. Am I getting this right?
Have the R62's run anywhere but the #4 line since they were first introduced in 1984/5?
Other than non-revenue service, I don't think so.
They've made a few appearences on the Shuttle sometime back(I cant remember what year). And on the 5 due to a GO.
And speaking of the 4, what happened to car 1436
It's gone, it was the FOURTH car in the Union Square wreck of 1991. Various damages included mashed bonnets and anti-climbers at BOTH ends (it crashed into #1440, and, in turn #1435 crashed into it), and the accordion impact caused the car to go out of plumb so it didn't tram correctly and thus was scrapt.
wayne
What is the status of 1366, 1367, and 1368?
Can they convert 1368 to an end unit, and have a 3 car set for the Shuttle?
During 2/5 G.O.s, the 5 from 149-GC to Bowling Green uses Jerome equipment, most likely R33s, but once in a while, an R62 made it on the 5...
Also, some time ago, about 10 years ago...don't remember why, but I saw an R62 consist on the 6 line, one set was specifically #1416-1420, the other I think #1411-1415, but I don't remember it...it was one of those "you know where you were and what you were doing" kinda things...I was with my mother at the Parkchester-E 177th St Station waiting for a S/B 6 train when I saw the R62 #6 train briefly...I remember it like it was yesterday...but why I saw it there, idk
Carlton
Cleanairbus
There was a R62 consist on the 6 for about a week or two sometime this year. Forgot when...
I think in 2000. I remember getting a pic of 1342 on the 6. It's not the greatest pic b/c I had a disposable but you can clearly see #1342 with 6 signs.
Also I rode 1625 on the 5 the day of the MNRR Open House Trip. Took to 59 St b/c of the 7 Line G.O. Strange to see a #4 car on the #5.
There were 3 other sets I saw that day.
#1625 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
I think in 2000. I remember getting a pic of 1342 on the 6. It's not the greatest pic b/c I had a disposable but you can clearly see #1342 with 6 signs.
Also I rode 1625 on the 5 the day of the MNRR Open House Trip. Took to 59 St b/c of the 7 Line G.O. Strange to see a #4 car on the #5.
There were 3 other sets I saw that day. I forget the car #'s.
It won't be pretty to see 1301-1625 with HUGE BLUE STICKERS.
Take a look at 1791-1795 on the 1/3/9 when you get a free chance.
Then you'll know what I mean.
#1625 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Unfortunately, the shop puts one sticker on top of another. 1711-15 are a perfect example. They came into the system wearing red, then, yellow, then red again, finally blue. When I saw them a few days ago, they were still sporting blue stickers.
Do shop personnel at Corona actually scrape of the old stickers?
-Stef
Yes. Most of the R62as have purple stickers.
Yes. They replaced the redbird R17s on the Grand Central Shuttle. Pelham R62As then replaced the R62s, followed by the current Livonia R62As.
Also, there was a weekend GO years ago. The "4" was only going as far as Atlantic Ave. All "3" service was cut back to Utica Ave. Bus service operated from Utica to New Lots Ave. I didn't see the "4", but the "3" was entirely R62s.
Also, when the first set of R62s were delivered, they ran in revenue test service on the "2", "4" and "7".
Finally, the recent GO of the "2" and "5" in the Bronx prompted R62 to operate on the "5". I took a couple of pictures. If anybody is interested, please post your email address and I will send them to you.
Back in 1987 or 1988, there were a few R62A from Livonia operating on the "4" for a brief time.
I'm interested in seeing the pictures of the R-62's on the #5 email me @ marimin@aol.com for I could see the pictures.
If you are still online check your email. I just sent you the pictures. Email me to let me know what you think.
I didn't get the pictures I downloaded it but it came with a wordpad. Try to download it again.
I just thought of this. If the 3 becomes R62s, that means the shuttle does as well. There are not any single R62 sets. What will they do?
Here is what I thought of:
1. Move the shuttle to Jerome since that is where the R62As are going. When the 142s come in, put some into 4 car sets and others in 6. (10 car trains for the 4 and 4 for the shuttle).
2. Use the R62s, but put some into 4 car sets and others into 3s. Lock down the easternmost car on track 1 so that people don't get on it at Grand Central only to be stuck there at Times Square.
3. Keep some R62As at Livonia for the shuttle
4. Something else???
Jerome Assigned R-62As for Shuttle Service would most likely remain single. Some single units are scheduled to remain on the Mainline after the 7 gets all of it's R-62As.
-Stef
This is what i believe will happen:
1901-1908, 1910-1965 will be used on the 4 and S Lines.
1966 and up will be going to the 7.
1301-1625 will be going to the 3.
R142 1101-1220 will be going to the 4.
Can you say YUCK?
#1521 4 Lexington Ave Express
I believe the number was closer to 55 Cars. That would be Cars 1901-55. 1956 and up would be on the 7.
The 4 should be getting 7100 and 7200 series cars.
-Stef
WHAT? Is this definite? The West Side is losing the last of its railfan windows this weekend? And I foolishly went and railfanned the 4 today because I thought it would be losing its railfan windows soon.
I'm not happy.
I refuse to believe that this is true so since I'm going out on Sunday and beginning my trip on the 3 from terminal-terminal,I'll see if I'll be greeted with R62's or R62A's at 148th St. and let everyone know my observation later that night.
So the R62's may no longer be the mainstay of the 4? That would be something.
You sure this going to happen?? Most of the Pelham R62A's have stickers on them. Ill be on the today through Monday and note any changes...........
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
Well guess what everyone,I took my trip on the 3 today from 148-New Lots Av. and there WAS NO swap of equipment between the 3&4.So this thread is officially untrue.I was on car #1907 railfanning just in case any subtalker's were on that train.It departed 148 at 4:30 PM.
OK, time to talk about each line and the cars that would go best on it.
My favorites:
R-40S on the B
R-68 on the D
R-38's on the E
R-32 on the N
R-62A on the 6
R-36 on the 7
R-33/36 on the S (42 St) shuttle
Here are mine
R44 on the A
R68(Or R68A) on the Q
World Series car on the 7
R62's on the 4
Here are mine
R44 on the A
R68(Or R68A) on the Q
World Series car on the 7
R62's on the 4
Here is my top 10 favorite subway line-fleet
R42 on the M
R32 with the whisle sound on the E, Franklin Shuttle
R68 on the W D
R40 on the L J
R32 on the R
R44 on the A
R62 on the 4 6
R33 on the 5 with the whistle sound
R46 on the F
My favorites:
A-R-44 with reinstatement of field shunting and removal of timers. 75mph service here we come.
B-R32
C-R38. Put the crappy cars on the crappy line
D-R32
E-R32
F-R32
G-R62. Running short trains anyway...
J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68
N- D types
Q local-R40S. This might disappoint some, but....
Q exp-flatcars pulled by R-33WF or R-127/134 or diesel units. Time for a real brighton express experience
R-R32
Franklin Shuttle-Q cars R68
42nd st shuttle-Automated R21. Slated for destruction by TWU
1/9-R15
2-R2000. Everyone here will be whining about the loss of the good old R142's.
3-RTS buses. Already being phased in during nights
4/5-R46/68/R110B/BMT standards. The larger cars will alleviate crowding...
6-r62A's
7-r142a
I wonder what R2000 look like. Wait, I got one, about NEW SLANTS with R143 features.
G-R62. Running short trains anyway...
J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68
LOL! I see you are into passengers falling between the station and the platform on the G and crashes in the Eastern Division - makes for some interesting subway riding.
It'll be like the demolition derby.
Lets see:
A: R44 but bring it back to a max speed of 65mph
B: R40
C: R32
D: R68
E: R32
F: R46
G: R32[I miss those on the G]
J/Z: R40M and R42
L: R40M and R42
M: R40M and R42
N: R32
Q local: R68 and R68A
Q express: R32 and R42 bring them back!
R: R46
Franklin Shuttle: R68[no other choice]
Rockaway Park: R44[no other choice]
42 St: R62A[no other choice]
W: R68A
1: R62A
2: R33
3: R62A
4: R33 and R62
5: R26, R28 and R29
6: R62A
7: R33/R36 WF
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>"J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68"<<
R46's and R68's in the BMT LOL keep dreaming ;-)
>>"4/5-R46/68/R110B/BMT standards. The larger cars will alleviate crowding..."<<
75 footers in the IRT would help but the crowding on the Lex will be overmatched anyway.......
O.K Check it out:
A-R68,R68A
B-R42
C-R68,R68A
D-R42
E-R32,R44
F-R42,R44
G-R44(4 CAR UNITS)
J-R32
L-R143
M-R143
N-R40 SLANT,R40 STRAIGHT END,R46 (ONLY R46 ON WEEKENDS AND NIGHTS)
Q-R46
R-R32,R44
S(FRANKLIN)-R46(3 A-A UNITS)
S(ROCKAWAY)-R68A
S(42 ST)-R62A
S(GRAND ST)-R44
V-R42
W-R40 SLANT,R40 STRAIGHT END,R46(COMBINED WITH CARS ASSIGNED TO THE N)
Z-R32
1-R62A
2-R142
3-R62
4-R142A
5-R142
6-R142A
7-R62,R62A
9-R62A
A R44
B R40S
C R38
D R68
E R46
F R46
G R32
J R42
L R143
M R42/R143
N R32/R40S/R40M
Q R68/R68A
R R32/
W R68A
Z R40M/42
1 R62A
2 R142
3 R62
4 R142/142A
5 R142
6 R142A
7 R62A/R36WF
Now that is a good Combo!
R-40 (slant) on the Q
Redbirds on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
R-32 on the F and N and R
R-38 on the A/C/E
And anything with a decent a railfan window on any other line :)
--Brian
Here's what I like:
E- R46
F- R46
G- R46
J- R42
M- R143/R40 Slant(I wish they would appear on the M again)
L- R143 (obviously)
N- R40 Slant/R42 [I'm loyal to the East. Div. cars :) ]
Q- R40 Slants
R- R32
W- R40 Slants/R68A
Z- R40m
2- Redbirds
4- R142A
6- R142A
7- Redbirds
M- R143/R40 Slant(I wish they would appear on the M again)
Yeah, the slants on the M were great! I don't condone riding between cars, but when I was a bit younger, one summer night me and a friend caught an M slant at Essex, and rode between cars on one of the slant ends across the Bridge, and Broadway el. Man that was fun....probably the best thing next to the vestibuled gate cars that used run years ago.
Riding between cars is a dumb idea though. When you are a kid though, everyone thinks they are invincible.
You know what I'm going to say.:)
R-10s on the A. Best of all time, hands down.
Honorable mention: R-32s on the N. Suddenly it's 1965 all over again.
Want to see R-38's on the E?
Rent "Coming to America".
Just bought it on DVD a couple days ago. IMO, excellent movie......
"Showing Disdain to House of Pain."
Check out the newest images section. There's a whole bunch of new photos of R40M's and R42's on the M line, and others. Some really great photos like the one below. What a great shot by Richard Panse:
I'm kinda hoping Dave is sitting on some more of the older pics that he's yet to scan and put up. I enjoy the ones of the system back in the 60's and 70's.
Yeah, I like those the best also. The old ones are the most interesting. I have plenty of my own current stuff.
I did think the one at Fresh Pond Road was a nice artsy shot though.
I can't say I have any that I haven't scanned yet. But I do have a bunch of Joe T. and friends to process. Old photos are hard to come by; Joe's the only source I have at this point.
Also, I understand you are backlogged but I sent you those monorail photos several months ago. Do you mind telling me their status?
I have enjoyed the past several updates immensely, keep up the good work!
"In the queue". Sorry I can't be any more specific than that, I work on things as I have time.
p.s. the queue is not first in first out. It's "put it in and lets see what I feel like pulling out today". Also if it makes you feel any better recently I've been turning away submissions because you're not the only one who is not exactly pleased with my turnaround time.
I totally understand where you are coming from. Even though my site doesn't take submissions, I have to say, it takes alot of time and effort to get the pictures I take myself from the camera to the Internet. I was merely asking out of curiosity.
Thanks for understanding. :-)
-Dave
I don't know who Richard Panse is but I really like his photography!
I agree! He may not be a SubTalker, but I wonder if it's someone that we only know only by SubTalk handle. That's the drawback when real names are not used in our handles. Whoever Richard is, he took some nice shots!
I don't think he's got a subtalk handle at all.
All I can say this: This website will make even the non-transit afficando to appreciate the beauty and history of one of the oldest transportation systems in the world. Still taking in those pics. some great shots of your and Joe's collection dating back to the 60's.
Heh, heh, heh, I love Fresh Pond Road station. Its my favorite place to smoke a cigaratte(the exit platform below the station itself). I always enjoy the great view of Fresh Pond Road, you can also find Fresh Pond Bus Depot there as well(Hence, what my handle represents)
Although, I think the pic would have looked even better with an R143 :)
Heh, heh, heh, I love Fresh Pond Road station. Its my favorite place to smoke a cigaratte(the exit platform below the station itself).
Well, I don't smoke anymore, but during my college years when I thought it was smart to smoke, I used to sneak a smoke way at the end of the Wyckoff platform. At the far north end of the Metro-bound Platform they built a few storage rooms, one right on the "express track", another at the extreme end of the platform, and just before that there was an abandoned exit. And all the old lamp posts were broken, so it was very dark. So basically you had your own private smoking room once you walked past the abandoned exit.
Well, the abandoned exit is now gone, and the lights are now replaced, and I don't smoke anymore, but it brings back good memories.
I have one ticket for the Redbird Special for Sunday. Does anyone want to buy it?
I saw the M-7 at Nostrand Ave. Today between 7:30 - 7:40 am, Those door chimes are loud, I can hear it 1 block away from Nostrand Ave. Station.
-AcelaExpress2005
Possibly a Long Beach train.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have photos of the Triplex/Steeple Cab fan trip that was just run recently. Thanks in advance.
I have a ton of photos from the trip. But there are only a few photos I have posted. The link is below.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
If you want to see something in paticular. Let me know and I will see if I have it.
Thanks, Tony. Would you please post a couple of photos of the Steeple cab pulling the "D" Types on the elevated structure. Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Bklynsubwaybob
Ok..I posted them I put 3 more (Sending 3 or 4 photos at a time that are almost 1MB a pop with a dial up modem is kinda time consuming lol). And one really cool shot on the A Line. I think it is IMAGE #49 or 50.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
Take a look
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the photos. They're really nice. I really appreciate the time and effort you took to send them.
Best wishes,
Bklynsubwaybob
Not a problem. if you want anything else let me know.
One was ran in TRAINS Magazine (Jan 2003).
Not one of my photos I hope...lol
I took a stack of pictures, but my camera did not work, and so they did not turn out. I did get some pictures (with Piggo12) on a day of railfanning the day before, and then used a FILM camera when I went to Branford the following weekend. Some of those turned out well.
I'll get them up on my website sometime in the distant future.
Elias
I hope you all went out and got photos of the subways in the snow! I want to see some great photos! Post them!
--Brian
There's an advertisment for a car made by Nissan that's been running on TV for a while now. It shows the car pulling up to an intersection, crossing a set of streetcar or LRT tracks and then driving off, all while being photographed by a red light camera. Does anybody know where was it filmed? I'm stumped.
-Robert King
I don't think I've seen it yet.
--Brian
>>> It shows the car pulling up to an intersection, crossing a set of streetcar or LRT tracks and then driving off <<<
I have seen a similar ad filmed in downtown Los Angeles (no tracks). I wonder if they have different film for different parts of the country.
Tom
I've seen that commercial many times and I hate it.
I thought it was Chicago. Could it be San Francisco?
I have seen it here, It is the LA Blue LIne ROW On Long Beach Blvd.
I was just curious as to why some of the lines near Coney Island have the alternate names Culver Line, Sea Beach Line, and Brighton Line? I've just finished racking my brains out studying for a calculus exam on integrals abd I don't feel like looking around for the answer. Thanks for reading.
GO TERPS! WEL WILL WIN THE PEACH BOWL!
p.s. Steve Blake was screwed on Tuesday nght!
Um, they have those names because someone gave them those names and people liked them so they stuck. Or the railroads just kept calling them that. The Brighton Line is the Q and the Culver Line is the F. The Sea Beach is the N and the West End line is the W.
--Brian
BMdoobieW already told you which lines were which but I'll give you a bit more detail. The names of the lines are based on the former steam railroads origins that predate the line letters.
Basically, the Q is known as the Brighton Beach Line because that was the popular name of the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Ry, later the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach.
The N Sea Beach was the New York & Sea Beach. Simple.
The F Culver was the only line named for a person, Andrew Culver, the founder of the Prospect Park & Coney Island.
The W West End was originally the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island, but later the Brooklyn, Bath & West End.
Now that I've done you a favor, you can teach me calculus. :)
The Sea Beach route also referred to the Sea Beach Palace Hotel, where the original steam route terminated in Coney Island.
The West End refers to the west end of Coney Island, where the West End and Sea Beach routes terminated separate from the Brighton and Culver routes. The "west end" was where the current Stillwell Ave. station is located. The Brighton and Culver originally terminated at West 5th Street near today's Acquarium - there was also a large trolley terminal there as well.
The Brighton name also refers to the Brighton Beach hotel which was near today's Brighton Beach station, and the original reason for building this line.
I might add that the line names are still relevant in NYC, because different train routes can go over different sections of track. The line names are like street names, and refer to specific places. The route names are like bus routes (ie. the M104) and refer to the particular service that runs over a particular stretch of track today.
Which leads to an interesting question. Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened? You'd have to disqualify the whole BMT southern division, what with various IND connections and, in any event, the BMT originally used numbers. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the 8th Avenue Express has always been the A train. What about the IRT?
Yes, another diligent reply.
;-) Sparky
Since they fully opened (that is, the lines reached their fulkest physical extent), only the L is essentially unchanged among BMT lines.
The W and Q come close to the original 3 and 1 expresses, except that the Q predcessor switched from tunnel to bridge in the 20s, and they both run north of Times Square, their original northern terminal.
Yes, the A was always the 8th Ave. express. Before the Fulton St. line opened, A trains ran on the South Brooklyn/Smith St. line where the F operates today. Except for the B and C swapover a few years ago, today's IND routes have kept the same northern terminals down through the years. South terminals varied as lines were extended and service patterns adjusted.
..."Before the Fulton St. line opened, A trains ran on the South Brooklyn/Smith St. line where the F operates today."...
Steve, without being Nit-Picky, when the A line was opened to
Rockaway Avenue, the E was extended to Church Avenue prior to
the F, which didn't exist till 1940.
;-) Sparky
Make that before the Queens line opened, then.:)
Steve,
Now your going to make me go look.
;-) Sparky
Except for the B and C swapover a few years ago, today's IND routes have kept the same northern terminals down through the years.
Are we forgetting the Archer Avenue extension?
:-) Andrew
Whoops, you're right. I stand corrected.
"Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened?"
I'd venture to guess that only the 1, 6, 7, G, and L have pretty much done the same thing since they opened (ignoring minor or temporary changes like the recent need for the 1 to go to Brooklyn, the occasional excursions by the 6 to South Ferry, the extension of the G to Church Ave.; though I admit to being hazy about the Flushing Line connection at Queensboro Plaza).
The 2/3/4/5 have juggled southern terminals.
The A, B, C, D, E, F have juggled southern terminals. The J has had its eastern end reworked, and also has gone to South Brooklyn in some incarnations. The M has been rerouted from Myrtle Ave to Manhattan. The N and R have switched northern terminals.
>>>"I'd venture to guess that only the 1,"<<<
IIRC, and this is prior to the R units on the IRT, with the
Low and High V's, it was:
Broadway~7th Avenue Express - 242nd Van Cortland Park to Brooklyn,
Broadway~7th Avenue Local - 137th/Broadway to South Ferry
[that's the current 1 line] also
7th Avenue~Lenox Local - 145th/Lenox to South Ferry.
[current 3 express, was only local in a previous configuration].
;-) Sparky
IRT - Seventh Ave Exp. used to have a northern terminal at 180th ST.- Bronx Park, and the southern terminal in Brooklyn. This completes the four trains on the West Side IRT prior to the change in service north of 96th ST., when they made all Broadway-Seventh Ave service local, and all Seventh Ave (Lenox) service express.
Not the (L)!
The Canarsie Line used to come off of the Broadway Line until the 14th Street Line was extended out that far. That 14th St. Connection is a very late development
Elias
"Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened?"
So in summary, the only ones that nobody can point out a major change on are the Pelham Bay, Flushing, and Crosstown.
(So in summary, the only ones that nobody can point out a major change on are the Pelham Bay, Flushing, and Crosstown.)
Perhaps not those. I was including the route designation as well. The G was previously the GG, though one could argue that doesn't count. It has also shortened up since the original route, too.
Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning? In any event, the Flushing line was joint BMT-IRT service until the 1950s, so it wasn't even really the same route. The route was also extended a couple of times, but I'm not sure that counts as a change.
Was Pelham always the #6?
>>> Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning? <<<
If it did it was kept secret from the passengers who identified trains by the names on the roll signs and the marker lights on the front.
>>> the Flushing line was joint BMT-IRT service until the 1950s, so it wasn't even really the same route <<<
Wait a minute. The IRT Flushing line has run the same route since the subway was extended to Flushing. It never had different terminals. It is true that at one time BMT trains shared the tracks with IRT trains east of Queensboro Plaza, and at one time 2nd Avenue El trains shared the tracks east of Queensboro Plaza, and at one time there was also an IRT service from Times Square to Astoria which shared the tracks between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza, but the IRT Times Square to Flushing line has always been unchanged.
Tom
Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning?
If you mean 1904 - the IRT Company never used a numbering scheme - I have maps and Lo-V signs, none of which refer to anything other than the names of the lines.
The first company to assign a number scheme to its routes was the BMT.
The IRT number scheme apparently predates Unification, but it was internal only. The Manhattan els never had numbers.
Fifty years ago the only BMT cars that could display numbers were the Triplex and the Multi. The Standards, gate cars, C types & Q types could not, and did not display numbers.
People who lived on the Jamaica line for example, did not have a clue that they were using the 15 until the number was displayed on the new R-16's in 1955. Passengers back then relied on marker light colors to determine their train.
Do the R32's still have the marker lights (for route identification) or were they "rehabbed" out?
No, the marker lights were removed along with the bulkhead route and destination signs during GOH.
Ok, on the MK R32 rebuilds from 1988-1990, the lights and rollsigns were completely removed and now it looks bland but it had to be done to make room for the A/C units. On the GE R32's however, the original layout is still there but the lights are blocked out and the luminator is over where the rollsigns were.
It isn't a luminator, it's a flip-dot sign. The same kind that they use on the buses.
The R-44 and R-46 side signs are Liquid Crystal Displays made by Luminator.
Yes and the BMT remained with numbers until the R27/R30's came in around 1961 and was the first order to be delivered with letter roll signs and that is how the BMT became letter routes and the IRT became numbers.
"I was including the route designation as well."
On the back of the 1966 map on this site, all IND and IRT trains, and most but not all BMT trains, have route letters or numbers.
On the 1959 map, only the IND trains have letters or numbers.
After Chrystie St., everything had a letter or number.
So it's too much to expect the route designation to stay the same.
In the mid-60s, maps showed letter markings for BMT Southern Division routes. That was where they were implemented first. It wasn't until 1967 and the opening of the Chrystie St. connection that letter markings first appeared for the Eastern Division. Even then, not all trains displayed these markings. The Canarsie line was still all-BMT standards then. AFAIK most Myrtle-Chambers service was also provided by BMT standards as well.
Andy,
Andy, neat reply. Have to teach these younguns, what it's all about.
;-) Sparky
Since we're adding a few details...
The West End refers to the west end of Coney Island, where the West End and Sea Beach routes terminated separate from the Brighton and Culver routes. The "west end" was where the current Stillwell Ave. station is located.
While I think you are probably right that the West End name was adopted because it had the westernmost terminal (of the four steam lines) I haven't been able to establish this definitively. The actual westernmost line (without a fancy terminal) was actually the Culver's branch to Norton's Point.
The Brighton and Culver originally terminated at West 5th Street near today's Acquarium - there was also a large trolley terminal there as well.
The Brighton originally went to the Hotel Brighton, of course, later joining the Culver at its Depot. There were two trolley terminals, east and wesr of the L terminal. You're probably thinking of the Coney Island & Brooklyn terminal, now the B68 bus.
The Brighton name also refers to the Brighton Beach hotel which was near today's Brighton Beach station, and the original reason for building this line.
The Hotel Brighton opened the same time as the railway. In fact Brighton Beach was named by the railway, by a contest. There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
Well, actually there was. Brighton Beach #1 had been at Brighton England for a few hundred years (Brighton was recorded in the Doomesday book).
John
There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
Well, actually there was. Brighton Beach #1 had been at Brighton England for a few hundred years (Brighton was recorded in the Doomesday book).
Well, OK. And that Brighton Line is immortalized in (among other sources) Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest.
As to the Doomesday book, the NYCTA had one of those two. The Myrtle L wsa in it, and the 3rd Avenue el, and the Culevr shuttle, and the ...
Paul,
Thanks for the astute reply. These youngster's have no idea of
the heritage of these lines. Once again gracias.
;-) Sparky
To add to what Paul had to say: the Culver line was -- briefly -- owned by the Long Island Railroad as there was a connection at Avenue I (known commonly as Parkville Junction) where trains could be diverted to either to connections for ferry service at Bay Ridge, or to Jamaica for trains to points on eastern Long Island. This was also a feature of the steam era.
In a nutshell -- and as far as I'm concerned -- all BMT southern routes (trains w/Coney Island-Stillwell as their destination) travel on their old railroad ROWs (primarily) once they emerge from subway running. Call me old fashioned, but that's just me....
In a nutshell -- and as far as I'm concerned -- all BMT southern routes (trains w/Coney Island-Stillwell as their destination) travel on their old railroad ROWs (primarily) once they emerge from subway running.
Quite so. In some cases on the original right-of-way, albeit for short distances. Major exception is the West End over 86th Street instead of Bath Avenue.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just me....
You're old fashioned. :)
Did the old surface train run ON Shower Avenue, or was there a private ROW?
If the latter, is there still evidence of this private ROW?
Did the old surface train run ON Shower Avenue, or was there a private ROW?
It ran on the avenue--but note there have been some avenue name changes over the years, which I have buried somewhere.
There was private right-of-way involved, though. Notably, the line made a little jog as it headed south at about 84th and New Utrechct. The jog was east then south. As of the last time I looked ('70s?) you could still clearly see where this was.
Read the article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 - 1913 for your next class. Then come prepared to discuss whether the Meigs elevated railway concept would have been a good alternative for the oynton Bicycle Railway :)
--Mark
Read the article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 - 1913 for your next class. Then come prepared to discuss whether the Meigs elevated railway concept would have been a good alternative for the Boynton Bicycle Railway :)
--Mark
He hit the shot. Give hm the credit, man. Its 1/10 of a sewcond, jeez!!!!!
Terps are in the peach bowl? Who are they playing?
They recieved names a long time ago, it became popular and stuck around. Lots of people don't really use the full names like before but us railfans & oldtimers still use it.
Culver -->F
Sea Beach--> N
Brighton -->Q
West End -->W
"Lots of people don't really use the full names like before but us railfans & oldtimers still use it."
Also, here on Subtalk, if you're posting a suggestion for a change, you would say "Send the J onto the Brighton Line." It would be pretty confusing to say "Send the J onto the Q line."
This is most necessary for the 4 South Brooklyn lines, which all normally have the same terminus. You can say "Send the C to Lefferts" and be understood but "Send the J to Coney Island" is ambiguous.
I know, people would be like WTF, huh?! :-o?. You can't say send the 2 on the 4 doing that with the IRT would be FAR worse any would be so confusing. On this board, its a 'unwritten rule' to include the names of the line(s) that the posters talk about.
In honor of the first snow of the year, I figured I'd share a pic I took today from Mosholu Tower...
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/Img_0323.jpg
DUDE! YOU RULE! I LOVE YOU! WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU! (yes, I am shouting)
--Brian
DUDE! YOU RULE! I LOVE YOU! WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU! (yes, I am shouting)
--Brian
Wow. My first double post. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. I really HATE when other people do this...and now I've done it. I'm so ashamed.
I'm sure SOMEONE is going to wake up with a headache today.... :)
What kinda sucks is that to prevent the train operator from flipping out thinking I was trying to catch him at something I stood by the door (as well as to block the wind) and the train is a bit off center.
You don't know how this was killing me either... it seemed like all day there were no Redbirds passing, then around 10-11-ish one passes going to Woodlawn and as he was leaving Mosolu the yard dispatcher hands me a move to make (and the track was ready so it had to be done right then)! Argh! I had a few opportunities to get 143s but I was more concerned with getting a Redbird.
It was worth the wait!
I would have liked to see a picture of an R143 running there. I know you meant R142A.
Yeah, I'm still not used to the A division yet. Sorry. I thought of it a few hours after I posted and meant to post a corection and just plain forgot.
Tony,
Awsome shot! Thanks...
Marc
I'm trying to find a font similar to each of the following:
- the lettering on the tiles in the original City Hall station
- the old rollsigns
The name of the fonts are good enough if anyone can provide me with that much. Thanks.
Lotsa photos!
Who's da man???? Who's da man???? YOU ARE!!!! OMG!!!!
Ok, maybe i had just al ittle too much to drink
David - What a brilliant set of pictures.
OH SHIT!!! Thats snow!!!
I'm from Philly and could you tell me where that shot was taken? I can't even hazard a guess.
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Smith/9th in Brooklyn, HERE'S a shot from an earlier time, when the weather was clear.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh my favorite line, with the Ronan Painted R-10s.
Thanks, ;-) Sparky
ANDY,
Steve B is going to retch, when he see this picture of his beloved
"Thunderbirds". Attendant, give him a barf bag, please. >G<
;-) Sparky
That's OK. I know the R-10s ran on the GG, although I personally never saw them there.
You can't help but noticing the Twin Towers. I enlarged a few New York photos I've taken over the years for one of our security folks, and one of them was a pic of the Twin Towers taken from Ellis Island in 1990.
Steve,
I rode the "Thunderbirds" and appreciated them on the >GG<,
but the ones I remember carried the Hunter Green Paint scheme,
my reference was to the paint on the cars in the picture.
No punt intended to location or background of the photo.
It was that GAWD awful horrid "tagged" painting of those cars,
that nauseated me. Yet, the Blue & Gray "Civil War" paint still
adorns the Metro North 1100, ex NYC 4500 MUs and they are handsome
after forty plus years of service. >IMO<
Also, when the green R-10s came over to the >GG< and the route
and destination curtains were replaced, a hint of things to come
was included. The destinations for the >GG< included Court Square.
And that was when?
;-) Sparky
The graffiti made all subway cars look repulsive.
Of course, my favorite R-10 paint scheme was the teal-and-white racing stripe job they sported in the late 60s. Too bad they didn't keep it for very long.
David, looks like you were busy yesterday! Great shots! Thanks for sharing.
David,
Ditto on Chris comments. Glad someone had the time to capture
one of those "New York" moments on film.
We traversed Brooklyn for a medical appointment in the snow.
RTS #8000, garaged at the "pond", and assigned to the B-48 had no traction at all. [It sucked]. Soutbound on the B-44 limited was expeditious till Empire Boulevard, where Limited Service was suspended. The return wasn't that bad on the B-44 Northbound,
under the prevailing conditions. Waiting for the B-48 later,
it was amazing to see the frequency of the B-110 Bus with their
Orions. Much better service, then the TA going your way.
I know, this should be posted on BusTalk, but what you want from
a "Streetcar" guy. I wish I could turn the clock back for
yesterday was a day for "Brooklyn's" 19th Century Sweepers
and the convertibles downgraded to salt cars to "Do Their Thing".
;-) Sparky
Nice shots, David... even though I HATE SNOW!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me too, I got sent home from work early (no problem-we got paid), and snowblew and shoveled the driveway. Me thinks this is going to be the "winter of discontent".
I should have guessed the photo was Smith-9th ,because of the height and NYC in the background. Anyway, thanks , Andee.
Chuck Greene
Wow, that #1 train coming around the curve is beautiful. It's definitely going on my computer desktop. Thanks for the nice pics.
Boy do I wish I was there, camcorder in hand .... great shots!
--Mark
Thanks for the compliments, everyone. (For those who didn't realize it, that image is a link to many more photos.)
Some comments (and questions):
Entering at 86th, I scanned the MetroCard discard pile, as usual, and found a "Why run" MetroCard, a Zagat-Balthazar MetroCard, and -- get this -- an expired London Transport Visitor Travelcard.
I was hoping to get some photos of the L at Broadway Junction, but the snow was blowing and I didn't want to get the camera wet. At Atlantic there were a few moments when the wind died down but I didn't get much there either.
The A was mostly R-44's -- I only saw two R-38 sets (and no R-32's). I hadn't planned on riding all the way to the last stop, but the Flats were so serene I couldn't bring myself to get off. A talkative TSS was at the controls, and the train handled remarkably well given the conditions -- he got up to 45 coming into Broad Channel and had no difficulty stopping right at the marker. Reduced visibility was the only problem. The subway is indeed a great way to get around on a snowy day!
Is there really a one-shot timer on the NB A at the south end of the North Channel Bridge? Why?
What's the deal with the permanent "crossover" signage on the closed platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn?
Great pictures David -- thanks for posting.
CG
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Passenger-rail advocates, state transportation officials, rail suppliers, the United Transportation Union and even the freight railroad industry continue to struggle with a four-point program to stabilize, strengthen and eventually expand the nation’s skeletal network of intercity passenger trains, with plans to release a final platform later this week.
Meeting November 15 at the invitation of the Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition and the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission, the 37 conferees – representing organizations from New England to Texas – took a full day of discussion before hammering out the four principles. Once agreed upon, they hope they will soon be formalized in Congressional legislation.
“We wanted to make sure that Congress is faced with a unified movement that agrees on a simple set of principles,” said Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition Executive Director Rick Harnish.
“When any state government, or city, or interest group goes to his congressman and says, “Here’s what we want,” we want every congressman to hear the same message. When diverse interest groups coalesce around a uniform message, they gain credibility with legislators.”
The four essentials most advocates say must be in the next transportation funding bill:
A dedicated, multi-year capital-funding program for intercity passenger rail patterned after the existing federal highway, airport and mass-transit funding programs.
Creation or designation of a specific agency within the U.S. DOT devoted exclusively to overseeing the funding, management and policy development of a national passenger-rail system. This agency would function like the Federal Highway Administration, the Federal Aviation Administration, the Federal Transit Administration, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which builds and maintains the nation’s inland waterways.
Preservation of the current nationwide interconnected passenger rail system and its improvement and expansion.
Full funding of Amtrak so that it can effectively manage, market and operate the national passenger rail system, and new policy oversight with new goals and incentives to more effectively define Amtrak’s mission and ensure higher levels of efficiency, innovation and responsiveness.
“I think this is the absolute minimum that every organization promoting passenger-rail development must embrace,” said United Transportation Union Illinois Legislative Director Joseph C. Szabo, who was asked by UTU International President Byron Boyd, Jr., to attend the conference. He will submit his observations to Boyd for review.
“Obviously,” Szabo said, “each organization will have its own specific demands and agendas regarding passenger rail. Certainly our union does. Certainly the individual states do, but everyone in the room immediately agreed to set aside his or her pet projects and causes in order to develop a simple set of principles and objectives that all of us can support equally before Congress. Congress doesn’t like to sort out a lot of controversial issues from contending groups. It acts only when presented with a clear set of goals, and that’s what the Chicago meeting developed.”
In addition to Szabo, those present at the meeting included the passenger-rail officials of the state departments of transportation in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota; Jim RePass, President & CEO of the National Corridors Initiative; Ross Capon, Executive Director of the Washington-based National Association of Railroad Passengers; J. Anne Chettle, Manager of Congressional Affairs at the Association of American Railroads; former Deputy FRA Donald M. Itzkoff; Kevin Brubaker, High Speed Rail Project Manager for the Environmental Law & Policy Center; Michael Moss, legislative assistant to Illinois Gov.-Elect Rod Blagojevich; Scott Bernstein, President of the Center for Neighborhood Technology in Chicago; and James E. Coston, a Chicago attorney and member of the Amtrak Reform Council. Amtrak Reform Council Chairman and former FRA Gilbert E. Carmichael participated by speakerphone.
RePass commented: “Rick Harnish has done a great thing by gathering together a representative group of rail advocates from all over the country. That’s the kind of leadership we need. I hope that the basic principles under discussion can indeed be adopted, at least by a majority of us gathered in Chicago.
“I believe we now have the basis for an effective passenger-rail funding package that we and our other allies can present to the next session of Congress,” Harnish said. “When rail advocates approach Congress, we will now be speaking with one voice. That has never happened before.”
Harnish said the conferees deliberately refrained from specifying a funding source in their four-point program because “that’s not our job.”
“Congress does not like outsiders telling it how to raise money for new initiatives,” he said. “Legislators prefer to be sold on a program. After they accept it as something the nation needs, they reserve to themselves the job of developing a funding mechanism.”
Szabo agreed, saying, “It’s O.K for rail advocates to debate how rail should be funded, and we do it all the time. Some people say add a penny to the federal motor-fuel tax and use that to fund rail. Some say use the 4.3-cents-a-gallon tax the railroads already pay on diesel fuel. Some say let intercity rail have a share of transit funding.
“It is not our role to tell Congress where to find the money,” he said.
“Congressmen like to do that themselves. What they expect us advocates to do is present a coherent and doable picture of what a modern U.S. passenger rail system ought to look like, and that’s what we advocates have done with the so-called ‘Chicago Agreement.’ I think we’re off to a good start.”
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Capital Properties, Inc. said on November 25 that it had won a court battle with Amtrak, but they don’t know yet if Amtrak will appeal the judge’s decision. Amtrak said its lawyers were mulling over what to do.
In U.S. District Court for Rhode Island, both entities claimed they were right, but “after a trial on the merits, the court awarded the firm about $1.48 million in additional damages in connection with condemnation proceedings” brought by the National Railroad Passenger Corporation – Amtrak – “with respect to certain land and air rights owned by the company in the Capital Center district in Providence.”
A press release stated “Amtrak had previously paid the company approximately $1,250,000,” but Capital Properties lawyers argued that amount was not enough.
The condemned land includes air rights over the railroad corridor and the land immediately adjacent to the five-track railroad right-of-way, between the station and Orms Street overhead bridge.
In its latest 10-QSB filing, Capital Resources said the dispute concerns 1.9 acres of air rights over Amtrak's Northeast Corridor that Capital Properties received during the 1980s. With that agreement, the company built a parking garage adjacent to Providence station.
Over the years, Amtrak assumed the cost of electricity provided to the parking garage; but in 1997, Amtrak refused to pay for the electricity, Capital Resources said. The company then filed suit seeking an order requiring Amtrak to remove its facilities from the parking garage property, Dow-Jones Newswires reported.
The company later amended its suit to include a claim that Amtrak erected towers and a signal bridge within the air rights in 1998.
Over the years, Amtrak condemned certain air rights and property and compensated the company for what it believed was just compensation.
The court's judgment will bear interest until paid in full, Capital Properties stated.
Company president Ronald P. Chrzanowski, said, “We are pleased with the court’s decision. However, at this time we do not know whether Amtrak intends to appeal.” He said if Amtrak does appeal, he would go back to court.
“We can provide no assurance as to if and when the judgment might be paid, he added.
Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black, in Washington, told D:F “Amtrak is reviewing the decision and considering our options.”
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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New York State’s Pataki administration officials are accusing Amtrak of delaying projects and demanding too much money from the state.
Among the consequences of Amtrak’s financial difficulties, both sides suggest, is that while New York State has invested more than $100 million in high-speed trains linking New York City, Albany and Buffalo, the trains may never be used, according to The New York Times.
The dispute has festered for months in private negotiations with New York and other states, as Amtrak has insisted on more money from the states, which face their own financial difficulties.
Joseph H. Boardman, New York’s transportation commissioner made the tussle public by releasing a letter he wrote to Amtrak a fortnight ago. He charged that Amtrak reneged on promises, delayed the high-speed trains, made unreasonable financial demands and threatened to keep the new trains out of service in order to wring more money from the state.
Amtrak declined to answer the criticism immediately.
“We intend to respond to Commissioner Boardman in due course,” said Cliff Black, an Amtrak spokesman, but, he added, “Amtrak’s financial position has become much more precarious.”
In a Times interview, Boardman said that much of his grievance was really with the federal government, which, he said, must come up with more money to keep Amtrak afloat. The government created the railroad, whose board is appointed by the president and Congressional leaders.
“We need the federal government – the administration, the Senate and the House – to sit in the room from here forward when we sit down with Amtrak, to be involved in fixing the intercity rail problem in this country,” Boardman said.
Congress and the White House bailed out airlines last year, he said, and should do the same for Amtrak.
Speaking on the condition of anonymity, Amtrak officials agreed, but refused to say anything for the record that could be construed as critical of their federal benefactors.
Phone calls left with the USDOT for comment were not returned, according to the Times.
The railroad has asked Congress to raise its regular annual subsidy to $1.2 billion from $521 million, but so far, the House and Senate have been unable to agree on a figure.
The most immediate threat from Amtrak’s troubles is to its passengers, including 40,000 daily on the Northeast Corridor, linking Washington, New York and Boston; and 3,000 daily on the Empire Corridor, linking New York City, Albany and Buffalo.
The Pataki administration fears much broader ripple effects for the New York metropolitan region. Amtrak owns some of the tracks, tunnels, stations and rail yards that stitch together the region’s rail network, and are heavily used by the Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North Railroad and New Jersey Transit. Even a partial shutdown of the national railroad could hurt the ability of those regional railroads to keep serving 300,000 commuters a day.
Boardman said he had broached the possibility of the state’s buying or otherwise taking over some of those assets, “but Amtrak is not willing to discuss it.”
Under an agreement with Amtrak, New York State is paying to rebuild seven Turboliner trains for the Empire Corridor to make them faster. Amtrak, in turn, was to make improvements to that route to allow higher speeds, like eliminating grade crossings and straightening curves. Taken together, their work was supposed to raise top speeds to 125 from 79 miles per hour, cutting the time from New York City to Albany by about 40 minutes to less than two hours.
State officials say that while they have invested more than $100 million in the project, Amtrak, which promised to spend a similar amount, has not spent a cent.
While New York is supposed to own the trains, Amtrak is managing the project and dealing with the manufacturer, Super Steel, based near Schenectady. Until Amtrak declares the trains ready, the state cannot take possession (See D:F, November 25).
Boardman said Amtrak had delayed the project, which is well behind schedule, with frequent changes in specifications. He also accused the railroad of inventing reasons to find fault with the first train, which is completed, so that it cannot be put in service or transferred to state ownership. In short, he said, Amtrak is using the threat not to deliver the trains as leverage to wrest more money out of the state.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Amtrak and Indiana’s DOT are recommending bringing a high-speed rail line between Cleveland and Chicago through Fort Wayne. The recommendation came a fortnight ago after a year of study, according to The AP.
Officials said they chose a Fort Wayne route over South Bend because it would be less expensive and provide more passengers. The $1 billion passenger rail plan still needs Congressional and state approval, which may have been hindered by a lackluster national economy.
The Fort Wayne News-Sentinel reported on November 22 that if a high-speed Amtrak passenger rail service project ever gets federal funding, Fort Wayne should be on its route.
The DOT, Amtrak and the Ohio Railroad Development Commission recently released results of a year-long study examining alternative high-speed rail passenger routes across northern Indiana, between Chicago and Cleveland.
The study favored a route through Fort Wayne over a route through South Bend, but suggested improvements for South Bend’s passenger rail service to Chicago. The new service would contribute to economic development in the region and throughout the state, said Mayor Graham Richard.
Some areas of the country that have high-speed rail service already have seen economic benefits, including its use for rapid parcel delivery by businesses such as UPS, he said.
The high-speed train could travel up to 110 mph, compared with a current maximum of 79 mph. A trip between Fort Wayne and Chicago would take between 105 minutes and 115 minutes, depending on the number of stops.
Indiana is part of the nine-state Midwest Regional Rail Initiative that envisions spending $5 billion on 3,000 miles of track for high-speed passenger trains. Chicago would be the regional hub for the new service.
The federal government would cover 80 percent of the project’s cost, but with the national economy and federal budget in their current shape, it could be awhile before funding becomes available.
Tom Beck, a rail planner for Indiana DOT, estimated lines for the service could be built in three or four years, but he said it probably would take seven to 10 years of preliminary work before construction could begin, after funding comes through.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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The South Carolina Transportation Commission almost doubled its financial commitment to high-speed passenger rail development on November 21, but the state remains far behind North Carolina and Virginia, reports greenvilleonline.com from its capitol bureau in Columbia.
South Carolina’s lines would be linked to those states.
On the recommendation of Commissioner Howell Clyborne of Greenville, the commission added $2 million to the $2.6 million already budgeted for rail development.
“Not only will this increased effort help meet the challenges presented by the new air quality standards, but it will help us deliver the transportation choices that South Carolina citizens are asking for,” Clyborne said.
The $2 million, which would be drawn from additional federal funds that become available, would be used for rail-related activities such as planning, rights-of-way acquisition and corridor improvements, Clyborne said.
In a presentation to the Transportation Commission, state rail coordinator Bill McIlwain said that North Carolina’s commitment of $61 million and 66 employees makes that state’s passenger rail development the “premier” program in the nation. North Carolina operates passenger rail service between Charlotte and Rocky Mount.
The Associated Press reported earlier this month that the federal government has approved preliminary plans jointly submitted by North Carolina and Virginia for a high-speed rail corridor running from Washington, D.C., through Richmond, Va., to Charlotte. Those states can now begin engineering and environmental studies necessary to draw half of the $3 billion cost from the USDOT.
A study has shown that the Virginia-North Carolina high-speed rail link is the only one of five designated by the U.S. DOT as feasible routes that might pay its operating costs from passenger fares.
The route is expected to allow trains to average 85-90 miles per hour, with top speeds as high as 110 miles per hour, rather than the current 45 mph average for passenger trains in the region. Such speeds would allow trains to compete with airlines and cars on trips of 300 miles or less, studies have shown.
Virginia, which has established a rail and mass transit division separate from its highway department, plans to sell $67.3 million in bonds to help finance the new high-speed rail corridor, McIlwain said.
Clyborne and other South Carolina leaders hope to see high-speed trains link up with the North Carolina-Virginia corridor in Charlotte and continue through Columbia and Greenville, with lines continuing to Atlanta, Jacksonville and Birmingham.
Even with the additional money, South Carolina’s funding for passenger rail service remains the lowest in the region, behind $5.1 million in Georgia, $9.1 million in Tennessee, $53.9 million in Alabama, $61 million in North Carolina and $86 million in Virginia.
“We’re low on that totem pole,” joked Commissioner Bayles Mack of Fort Mill.
“I don’t believe we’re even on the totem pole,” shot back Clyborne.
“North Carolina has definitely put the hammer down. Air quality is already a major issue that could stifle future economic growth in the Upstate,” Clyborne said.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has the Piedmont’s industrial corridor on a watch list of regions that could come under industrial development restrictions if air quality continues to worsen.
“If we end up in non-attainment status, the EPA is going to be looking for ways we intend to deal with that. Rail is one way to deal with the problem,” he said.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Two independent studies of the financial viability of a high-speed rail link between Tampa and Orlando conclude the fares paid by riders alone would cover the cost of operating and maintaining the system.
The results of the studies, released November 20 by the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, gave supporters of the controversial transportation system a boost.
“The study shows we have a very, very viable project between Tampa and Orlando,” said C.C. “Doc” Dockery, who put $2.7-million of his own money into a campaign to pass the high-speed rail amendment to the state Constitution in 2000.
“We’ve got to get funding, then we’ve got to get approval from the (Federal Railroad Administration), and then we’ve got to build it,” Dockery said. “We’ll get there. I’m going to try to stay healthy until I can take my first ride,” the St Petersburg Times reported.
Even if the optimistic ridership figures are accurate, the project’s biggest hurdle remains funding. Proponents hope for an amalgam of federal, state and private money that doesn’t saddle Florida taxpayers with underwriting the rail system forever – but the availability of state funds is uncertain, particularly in the aftermath of voter approval earlier this month for the expensive class size measure, another constitutional amendment.
The ridership report, put together as a guide for potential contractors, does not include the rail link between Tampa and St. Petersburg. That project is being treated separately because there are so many problems associated with getting the rail line from the east side of Tampa to the West Shore area and then across Tampa Bay to Pinellas County.
Excluding commuters, the ridership study calculated that travel between Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando in 2010 would be around 50-million trips a year, according to a summary of the study sent to High Speed Rail Authority members. Of those, somewhere between 15.6-million and 16.2-million trips potentially might be captured by a high-speed rail system.
This base ridership would generate between $26-million and $36-million a year, enough to cover operations and maintenance. It does not include such ancillary sources of income as concessions, parking, express parcel service, naming rights and advertising.
The authority could generate an additional 530,000 riders and $33 million in revenue a year if Disney and businesses along the International Drive corridor in Orlando agree to use the rail system to take their customers to and from the Orlando airport.
“I can’t tell you that the results of these studies make it clear that high-speed rail is financially viable in Florida,” said Nazih Haddad, staff director of the rail authority. “It only shows that ridership could cover operations and maintenance. Financing of construction and the purchase of (trains) are not included.”
Dockery said that two consortiums of contractors have expressed an interest in the project. Asked if it wouldn’t be better to have more, he said, “It costs about $2 million to put a bid together. That’s a big chunk of change to put into a project that isn’t even funded yet.”
AECom Technology Corp., and Wilbur Smith Associates, international consultants that specialize in engineering transportation systems did the ridership studies.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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As communities throughout the nation explore rail transit options, the issue of high-density vs. low-density development is taking on higher profile status in the arena of public debate. Two reports just released point up the tradeoffs.
“Measuring Sprawl and its Impact,” a three-year research project conducted by professors and Rutgers and Cornell Universities, finds that areas with more sprawl have higher traffic fatality rates, more traffic and poorer air quality.
However, another study says there are side effects involved in some of the so-called “smart growth” methods used to contain sprawl.
“Smart Growth and Its Effects on Housing Markets: The New Segregation,” issued by a think tank, The National Center for Public Policy Research (NCPPR), argues that “smart growth” policies aimed at imposing tight curbs on low-density development are disproportionately hurting minorities and folks at the lower end of the economic chain.
Taken side-by-side, the two reports do not contradict each other. They are not mutually exclusive. What it comes down to is which concerns are to be given more weight – an individual and perhaps subjective judgment.
The Rutgers-Cornell study, as reported in the transit industry (APTA) trade publication Passenger Transport, finds that the daily distance driven per person is more than 10 miles more in the most sprawling places than in the least sprawling communities, or 40 more miles of driving each day for a family of four.
The most sprawling areas average 36 traffic deaths for every 100,000 people as opposed to 23 deaths per 100,000 in higher density developed communities.
Higher density, say the professors, means lower ozone pollution levels.
Furthermore, they charge, sprawl fails in the one benefit its defenders often attribute to it: lower congestion. Ergo, simply laying out more concrete for another highway won’t eliminate intolerable traffic jams.
On the other hand, the NCPPR argues, in effect, that trying to force everyone into a pill box above a subway stop is not necessarily the way to go either. In fact, it can lead to a form of “economic segregation.” The sponsors of the study add that “smart growth” policies are not having the desired environmental benefits that are claimed for them.
Based on a study of a “smart growth” policies in Portland, Oregon, hailed as a national model, the study tried to determine what the impact would be if the entire country had adopted the Portland regimen.
The finding: If these policies had been implemented ten years ago, 260,000 minority families “who are currently homeowners in the U.S. would not own their own homes today,” according to NCPPR President Amy Ridenour. Further, she said, “a total of a million families who currently enjoy their own homes wouldn’t be doing so today.” That, in her opinion, is “morally wrong.”
NCPPR Executive Director David Amalsi said “smart growth” programs should be checked so that they don’t “inappropriately affect poor minority communities or the general population.”
If the governments want to save open space, he reasons, government can always buy the land, but the right tell people who own or want to own property what they can and cannot do with that property should be off limits.
At the same time, the report by the professors argues that “people in sprawling areas endure no less traffic-related delay than those in more compact places, but have fewer alternatives in travel routes and modes (Read they’re less likely to have the mass transit option).”
Declaring that the Bush administration is committed to supporting smart growth “in every way that we can,” EPA Administrator Christie Whitman told Cybercast News Service (http://www.cnsnews.com) that the way to deal with minority housing is through affordable housing programs that can be incorporated into “smart growth.”
Ridenour rejects that, telling CNS, “I doubt the Bush administration has even realized that the poor minorities are the most disproportionately negatively affected by smart growth.”
As we said at the outset, the reports do not contradict each other as far as basic research is concerned.
What it comes down to is a matter of trade-offs. The second issue involved is to what extent should freedom of choice play a role? Thirdly, can we have sensible development that encourages mass transit, and at the same time, allows people the choice of the “American dream” of the house, the lawn, Mom and Dad with their kids, complete with a dog named Spot?
Both studies present facts and figures. The reader is left to balance things out according to individual values in a number of areas. For example: personal choice, government fiat, or a carefully blended combination of the two.
The Spot comment reflects possibly the only negative to public transportation--you can't bring your pooch to the vet by bus, light rail or subway!!
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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It all began some two years ago, but the Santa Fe Drive Corridor in Denver trolley line eventually replaced a bus route.
We recently learned through the online pages of Light Rail Progress – at http://www.lightrailnow.org – that the changes came about on traffic congestion in a major corridor.
Bus ridership in the Santa Fe Drive corridor was about 2,000 daily passengers before the Southwest light rail transit (LRT) line opened. Since the Southwest Line opened in July 2000, LRT replaced bus service in the corridor, with bus feeder service interfacing with the LRT at stations. In October 2000, covered by the period of the RTD study, LRT ridership averaged over 13,000 riders per day.
Denver Regional Transportation District data, from the fall of 2000, focused on traffic flow on a section of Denver’s Santa Fe Drive (north of Mississippi), a signaled, six-lane major artery parallels the Southwest LRT line to Littleton on a separate, exclusive railroad right-of-way. The roadway is three-lanes wide, eventually narrowing to two lanes.
The Southwest LRT line runs in a separate, exclusive alignment along an existing railroad right-of-way, through industrial areas, and past residential developments which range from lower-density urban housing to suburban housing. In the peak hours during the RTD study period, eight trains per hour at six two-car trains and two three-car trains ran the route, for a total of 18 cars per hour.
According to data from the Colorado DOT, peak hour, peak-direction roadway traffic volume on the section of Santa Fe studied is approximately 4,500 motor vehicles, of which about 7 percent are trucks.
The automobile count is about 4,180 vehicles. With average auto occupancy of 1.2 persons per car, the number of persons traveling by automobile is approximately 5,020.
RTD tabulates the number of peak hour, peak-direction LRT passengers at 2,000 to 2,500. Light Rail Progress calculates that total peak hour, peak-direction person-movement in the corridor ranges between 7,020 and 7,520. Of this, the percentage (modal split) traveling by LRT ranges between 28.5 percent and 33.2 percent – a significant proportion of total passenger traffic.
Put another way, if these riders chose to make their trip by automobile instead, they would further congest those three lanes of Santa Fe Drive with between 1,670 and 2,080 additional automobiles during this peak hour. Thus, LRT can be said to provide a significant amount of “congestion relief” in this case.
LRT critics and opponents consistently try to pose “reduction” of roadway traffic as a basic measuring stick for the “success” of LRT – a measure it will inevitably fail to meet.
In reality, by raising (unachievable) expectations of significant roadway congestion reduction from LRT and other major transit projects, transit and LRT opponents exploit a common fallacy and misconception: That any single transportation facility, roadway or transit, can ever truly “reduce” congestion.
It is almost universally recognized, even among highway planners, and throughout the transportation planning profession, that roadway traffic congestion is a fundamental fact of life – basically, it continues to grow with population expansion and the proliferation of motor vehicles. Acceptance of some degree of congestion is actually incorporated into the basic design of urban roadways.
For these reasons, bona fide congestion relief provided by LRT and other major transit services cannot be expected to take the form of significant reductions in road traffic. Instead, relief is far more likely to take the form illustrated in Denver – diversion of significant traffic growth into high-quality transit service in specific corridors. (We have no specific information one way or the other of any fluctuation in motor vehicle volumes on Santa Fe Drive.)
It is either an error or a deception to try to assess congestion relief by the measure of whether or not existing congestion simply evaporates. Congestion never just “evaporates.” The traffic lanes on Santa Fe Drive are probably as crowded as ever (particularly because of ongoing population and traffic growth throughout the metro area). What LRT does is to open up, in effect, a new “traffic artery” along which people can move past the existing congestion. Moreover, unlike the capacity-increasing effects of a freeway, the result with LRT is that all those cars are off the road, out of the traffic stream, and out of the competition for scarce parking spaces. Perhaps the realistic goal of major transit improvements like LRT, therefore, is to relieve mobility congestion, and not necessarily traffic congestion.
Denver’s data suggests that LRT – at peak hour in the peak direction in the target corridor – is carrying between 28 percent and 33 percent of the total passenger traffic flow. In other words, without the LRT line in service, approximately 30 percent of corridor passenger traffic would be added to the roadway congestion. Light Rail Progress stated, “We believe this demonstrates that LRT can have a significant impact on corridor traffic congestion.”
These results have significance for other communities evaluating LRT and other mobility improvements. The public might well consider whether they would rather have an additional 30 percent (or other percentage) of motorists on crowded streets, contesting for scarce space. Expanding the roadway arterial to accommodate this extra traffic in Denver’s case would mean adding at least 4 to 6 more lanes to Santa Fe Drive – an extremely expensive proposition, with very costly inner-city right-of-way acquisition as well as construction. That does not include additional parking spaces for thousands of additional cars.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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A Boston-based consortium that includes a former Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority general manager has emerged as the front-runner to operate the MBTA’s commuter rail service, agency officials and rail specialists say, in a move that could establish it as an eventual private-sector competitor to Amtrak.
The Boston Globe reported Saturday (November 30) the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Rail Co., made up of European rail powerhouse Connex, Canada’s Bombardier of North America, and a Boston transportation consulting firm headed by former MBTA general manager James F. O’Leary, is expected to get the T’s nod in coming weeks, according to MBTA officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The so-called MassBay conglomerate has become the frontrunner somewhat by default, they said: It has far more experience, money, and worldwide clout to run the nation’s fourth largest commuter rail operation than Billerica’s Guilford Rail Systems.
With three bidders, the competition was considered close, but last week’s disqualification of Bay State Transit Services, a consortium of British rail giant Stagecoach Group and Herzog Transit Services of St. Joseph, Mo., for submitting an incomplete proposal leaves the T with two very distinct bidders.
Guilford, a privately held firm, has, according to railroad analysts, a poor reputation and a checkered history running commuter rail for the T, and has thus far failed to make any overtures to organized labor, a crucial step in making itself a viable candidate. In 1986 the firm was released from its MBTA contract following a turbulent three-month rail strike that, at times, stranded thousands of commuter rail riders.
The fight to replace Amtrak as operator of the T’s commuter rail service, with its 140,000 commuters per weekday the largest passenger rail contract to be put out to bid in the country, has been one of the most hotly contested rail battles in recent history. Amtrak CEO David Gunn said Amtrak would not rebid the job because of too many onerous contract clauses.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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A Connecticut task force is considering proposals that Connecticut spend nearly $250 million in the next few years on new commuter rail cars and locomotives and some $3 billion by 2020 to upgrade all rail facilities.
Connecticut’s Transportation Strategy Board also voiced support November 19 for creating a new commuter rail line that would run from New Haven to Hartford and Springfield, reports the New Haven Register.
The funding estimates and New Haven-to-Springfield commuter line proposal are included in draft recommendations being considered by the task force.
The panel must vote by December 15 on its final recommendations for resolving Connecticut transportation gridlock problems.
However, R. Nelson ‘Oz’ Griebel, chairman of the strategy board, said a critical factor in the panel’s final report would concern the timing of any state spending. Griebel said, “no one in their wildest imaginations” expects the board to call for $3 billion in immediate state spending on rail improvements.”
One reason Griebel and other members of the strategy board may be nervous about such cost figures is that Connecticut is now facing its worst budget crisis in more than a decade. Lawmakers are now beginning to look for ways to solve a current fiscal year deficit estimated at $500 million and a projected two-year budget gap of $1.5 billion.
Griebel called the transportation cost numbers included with the draft recommendations “some ballpark estimates that need to be refined in the next couple of weeks.”
The cost estimates, made by experts at ConnDOT, provide an indication of the massive potential costs involved in trying to ease gridlock and congestion on Connecticut highways.
The draft recommendations are based on estimates that commuter ridership will grow by about 1.5 percent per year, for a 25 percent increase over 15 years.
Rehabilitation of the existing fleet of New Haven Line and Shore Line East and rail cars and locomotives is already planned, but the strategy board is expected to call for adding a significant number of new locomotives and cars in the next few years.
A draft recommendation calls for purchasing 12 electric locomotives and 40 coaches for the New Haven Line and eight locomotives and 24 coaches for Shore Line East (New Haven to Old Saybrook and New London) in the next few years. Those purchases would total $248 million, according to the DOT estimates.
The long-term costs of replacing cars and locomotives for those two lines could total $1.8 billion by 2020, state experts predict.
According to the draft report, parking should be expanded at every station along the New Haven Line from New Haven to the New York border and the cost of those improvements could total some $26 million.
The strategy board is also planning to voice support for the concept of creating a New Haven-Hartford-Springfield commuter rail line. Griebel said state transportation officials are currently studying how feasible such a line would be, and that report won’t be ready until June 2003.
Another concern voiced in the board’s draft report is what to do about financially troubled Amtrak, which owns the rail lines between New Haven and Rhode Island and New Haven and Springfield. Amtrak also has the contract to provide Shore Line East service in southeastern Connecticut.
The strategy panel is also asking that Connecticut push for voting representation on any governing board that is set up if New York goes ahead with its proposal to merge the Long Island Rail Road and Metro North Railroad.
One recommendation that won’t appear in the board’s final report involves proposals to help ease truck traffic on Interstate 95 and 84 by shifting more container freight shipments to railroad cars. Some lawmakers had hoped such a move could significantly cut the number of trucks using those crowded highways.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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It took a long time to get started, but the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority’s long-neglected Blue Line is undergoing a major transformation.
Over the next few years, the T will complete a top-to-bottom overhaul on the Blue Line that was first promised back when the other George Bush was president, writes the Boston Herald of November 24.
In all, the $740 million facelift will be the T’s second-largest capital outlay, behind the Silver Line and more expensive than highly publicized projects such as the Greenbush and Fall River-New Bedford commuter rail lines.
“I’ve never really thought of it in those terms… but you’re absolutely right,” said T general manager Mike Mulhern, who was a train attendant on the Blue Line in the early 1980s. “By the time we’re done, we’ll end up with a totally modernized system – one that will be in good shape for the next 30 to 50 years.”
The problems on the outdated 5.9-mile Blue Line haven’t changed much since Mulhern’s days there. Many stations are crumbling and lack handicapped access, and the cars often are jammed with passengers.
MBTA Blue Line chief Lisa Bono said taking the train to “Eastie” during peak hours is like traveling in “a can of sardines.”
“During rush hour, it’s rough,” she said.
Hence, the T’s priority was to go from four-car trains to six-car trains. In the process, however, it had to renovate the Blue Line’s stations to build platforms long enough to accommodate the new trains.
The overdue improvements mirror what was done at 10 Red Line and Orange Line stations in the mid-1980s. The Orange Line opened to six-car trains in December 1987; the Red Line followed suit four months later.
In all, the T will spend $205 million on 94 new subways cars and $417 million renovating 11 Blue Line stations (the 12th, Bowdoin, will be closed when the six-car trains debut in December 2004).
The Blue Line overhaul has been a long time in the making. It was originally slated to happen by the mid-1990s, but the T later committed to unveiling a new Blue Line by 1998 and then by 2001.
Opened in 1904, the Blue Line was once cutting-edge, featuring the first underwater subway tunnel in America… but it has been decades since any meaningful improvements were made. The last big expenditure was the purchase of the current car fleet in the mid-1970s, and everyone acknowledges the cars have aged faster thanks to the salty sea air along the shoreline route.
In all, the T will spend $205 million on 94 new subways cars and $417 million renovating 11 Blue Line stations (the 12th, Bowdoin, will be closed when the six-car trains debut in December 2004).
That statement appears to be a bit misleading. Aquarium station was completely rebuilt last year. A new Airport station is already under construction, and I believe the MBTA already extended the platforms at the four stations modernized in the mid-1990's (Wonderland, Revere Beach, Beachmont and Wood Island). Suffolk Downs is also fairly new, although I believe the platform is only four cars long. That leaves only four stations in true need of rebuilding (Government Center, State, Maverick and Orient Heights).
Jim D.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Kennedy Airport’s AirTrain won’t open on schedule.
The $1.9 billion service, intended to link the airport’s terminals to city subways, has been indefinitely postponed since a September derailment that killed a motorman.
The service had been scheduled to connect the airport terminals to each other and to Howard Beach in Queens by the end of the year, and expand by the middle of next year to the city’s Jamaica station, but the Port Authority of New York and Jersey and the train’s builders, a consortium led by Montreal-based Bombardier Transportation, have not resumed testing since the derailment and have scheduled no target date for a new opening, said agency spokesman Pasquale DiFulco.
“The priority is determining what happened,” DiFulco said last week. He said the agency was awaiting results of its own and a National Transportation Safety Board investigation.
Three cars went off the tracks on September 27 during a test run of the AirTrain after it went round a curve, killing 23-year-old Kelvin DeBourgh, authorities said.
NTSB spokeswoman Lauren Peduzzi said the train was traveling at 50 mph to 55 mph at the time, and her agency was investigating what role the speed played.
She also said concrete blocks located in the front and rear trains to approximate the weight of a full passenger load weren’t secure, and investigators were determining whether or not they shifted during the test run. The train operator was pinned by the blocks after the crash.
The NTSB has not been at the site since one week after the crash, and typically does not release final investigation reports for nine months to a year after an incident. Peduzzi said the agency has not advised the Port Authority or Bombardier to suspend AirTrain testing.
Port Authority officials have predicted that 34,000 people a day would use the 8.1-mile light rail system at Kennedy. That estimates is more than 10 times as great as the 3,000 people a day who are using the AirTrain linking Amtrak and New Jersey Transit riders to the monorail at Newark Liberty International Airport.
Transit advocates have said the light rail system is crucial to the economy at Kennedy, an airport notorious for difficult access to Manhattan.
A study last month by the Center for an Urban Future, a policy research group, found that Kennedy and LaGuardia have lost 10,000 jobs in airport-related businesses since September 11, a much greater percentage than hub airports in the rest of the country.
For shame, a new flying junction at the IND ROW near Howard Beach...what could have been.
Any estimates for constructions costs for such a spur line compared to this AirJunk system? I am sure it would be comparable. Heavy rail was the only way to go.
The PA wanted another cash cow all it itself, just like the EWK AirTrain. An I train connection would have meant people could get to the AirPort for a 1.50, most of which would not go to the PA.
At 3:30AM?!?
7121-25, replete with a coating of snow, are in the house!!! I love this stuff. This hound dog always thought Adventures Of The Apartment Window never failed him. Dang! He was right...
Thats why there was a power pack entering Linden Yard from the IRT on Thusday night. I guess that it was still go enought for the to do the transfer uptown. As for snow on the train, all the trains in Cansirs Yard were covered. I must have looked like a blizzed as I was moving down the tracks after leaving the yard.
Robert
7121-7125 were in Ridgewood a few days ago.
Yes, While I was shoveling snow from my driveway Thursday nite, I heard the freight train horn blowing as it passed Livonia Ave on their way to Linden Yard.
Yesterday while I was on the L, I was thinking about a What a T/O sould be singing in the Snow.
I hope you like it, it's only a start. If anyone whats to add on to it and if it's good I might get some other T/O to sing it and I try to tape it.
Here It goes.
"Dashing thought the Snow in the 8 car silver train. All the rail we go, sliding all the way. I hoping I stop this train. Here come that red Home Ball again, while sh–int in paints. Oh no there it goes. Dose anyone have a cup for me."
Robert
I just thought of what the choris shoud sound like.
Here I go again.
"M T A, M T A, M T A the only way to go. Oh, what fun it is to be working for the M T A. HA.
So there what I have so far.
"Dashing thought the Snow in the 8 car silver train. All the rail we go, sliding all the way. I hoping I stop this train. Here come that red Home Ball again, while sh–int in paints. Oh no there it goes. Dose anyone have a cup for me.
Choris.
M T A, M T A, M T A the only way to go. Oh, what fun it is to be working for the M T A. HA!"
Robert
I sorry that it's in three parts aready, but that how I have been coming up with the song. As for the first two part any idears are welcome.
After Choris.
Now I am on this platform. Frizzing my But off now, answering all the costumer questing. Most of them don't understand what I am trying saying, because that don't speak English. Oh I can't wait to be back on this train, operating once again. Oh what fun it is to be work all the day, with the M T A."
Repeat Choris.
Have fun.
Robert
Saw the pix of Smith/9th in the snow and was reminded:
Look at the bottom right, that's a electric train-stop installed in the middle of "Air" territory. Blasphemy!
Damit, and that's a prime photo location as well! I caught similar MTA narrowmindedness on the 7 near Shea Stadium.
Gack...what's next......US&S heads on top of GRS cases?!
Geez, Can you even DOOOO thaaaaat?
Isn't that like mixing acids and bases?
Evidently we will find out soon!
Oh, that. I hope proper Personal Protective Equipment is supplied in the form of lab coats,pocket protectors and welder's goggles.
I don't get it, really I do! What are you trying to say?
Some people have this liking for electro-pneumatic switch machines and stops. The TA is beginning to phase them out, and the picture is just visible proof of the "Pneumatic Apocalypse"
Some have criticized those of us who "bash Microsoft" for making a QWAPPY product because "we need to get with it" even though OUR understanding of rebooting a computer was something that was ONLY done after the firetrucks left and the computer basement had been pumped out, and the power was back on again. To those who decry the replacement of reliable, "life critical" systems with "cheap junk," I'd only offer that which is Windows. "It's a better experience." I'm all for plastic trippers running on NT. "Anything else is a dinosaur." :)
Um, I don’t quite understand this post:
–I absolutely agree that Microsoft has written nothing (ever!) that has the reliability to support anything that is life-critical. Even the various Unix/Linux flavors, although they are orders of magnitude more reliable, aren’t there yet.
However, what does this have to do with trip arms? I always wondered why switches, trip arms (even signals, sometimes it seems) were electro-pneumatic, instead of being purely electrical. To my mind, it seemed that this gave you two systems to fail rather than just one.
I saw one post that said that it was possible to get more power in a smaller space by using pneumatics (essentially, the power, compressed air, could be generated elsewhere). These days, though, with high-efficiency electric motors, I can appreciate that the equation might be different.
Can anyone tell me, in simple terms, why, today, electro-pneumatic is still better?
John
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. Why exactly is the MTA replacing them? What advantages do they have? I'm pretty sure NYCSubway doesn't cover this exact issue...
Apologies for confusing you - I was following up on another thought entirely - the "this is progress, get over it" from another thread at another time. The replacement of pneumatics with electricals and the death of position signals which functioned reliably for a long time with cheezy "knockoffs" of what once was is an argument similar to "Windows is the world, it's time we moved past unix" on the computer side of reality. I was going after a philosophical argument Mike and I had recently in an attempt to show that the same mindset applies here. Has nothing to do with signals and controls as far as where I was going with it ... "progress trudges on" was where I was going.
Can anyone tell me, in simple terms, why, today, electro-pneumatic is still better?
Air switches are MUCH faster than all-electric switch machines.
In the latter, the electric motor has to spin around a whole bunch
of times to make the switch go over. There is a friction clutch
so that if the switch points hit an obstacle, the motor doesn't
sit and burn. With A-10 machines, the movement is via a big-arse
piston which goes over very quickly. They have enough force
to dislodge most minor debris. A soda can in the points can
hang up an electric switch, causing "unavoidable delays". The
air switch will just crush that into shim stock. Of course
the down side is it will do the same to a finger.
Air stops can be made much smaller in the trackway. Look at one.
It takes up not even half of the width of the ditch. On the
other hand, the GRS electric stops take up the entire ditch.
The older ones were very deep and in many places in the IND the
stop mechanism has to be located outside of the trackway and
connected with remote rods.
OTOH, with pneumatic stuff, you have the considerable maintenance
overhead of the compressor houses and air distribution system,
freeze-ups, etc.
Also, you can operate a huge number of air machines at the same time. Large electric plants have to have enormous rectifiers and backup batteries, or sometimes there are "cascading" circuits in the switch control relays to ensure that the switches all throw in sequence, keeping the power consumption down.
Tower operators on other boards have posted unanimously that they would rather run an E/P plant than a straight electric. The E/P stuff is just easier to line routes on.
Air lines and compressors require maintenance, but so do the high power contacts controlling electric switches. Also, you haven't lived until you've filled the water up on an entire bank of lead-acid batteries. [two decks each the size of large picnic tables]
So there are pros and cons in either case. I'll dig up one of my old US&S books and see what other propaganda they have to offer.
But which sound is more railroadsy:
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-clank
or
TWOCK...tissssshhhhh.?
Aside from the advantages mentioned by Jeff H, it is silly for the MTA to invest in new old signaling. We all know that one of these decades the MTA is going to go to a cab signal based system without fixed wayside signals except at interlockings so buying new equipment that will just get throw away in a few years is stupid.
This of course only applies to the trip stops.
An interesting note along the same lines would be the resignalling of the northern end of the 8th ave line by GRS: retaining the A-10 machines from the original plants.
I posted a bunch of MNR photos from this past July:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MNR
--Brian
Snowstorm report from #3 West End Jeff:
I took out a ruler last night and neasure the total snow accumulation from this storm and it measured six inches. Quite a big storm for this time of the season. It doesn't look like we'll be getting more any time soon. Everything appears to be up and running today.
#3 West End Jeff
Effective immediately, I will be removing myself from all groups, both real and electronic, that deal with public transportation.
Anybody wishing to contact me must route emails directly to robaking@hotmail.com
-Robert King
Bob,
Sorry to hear that.
Would we be prying to much if we were to inquire as to why you have decided to leave?
The V train is the subway system's prodigal son. Lightly used,
unpopular from its inception, the V has been the beneficiary of some
impressive measures nonetheless. Newer-type subway cars were lifted
from the F, leaving that line with some older stock. The 63rd Street
route is Crowded uptown F trains frequently see delays all the way
through midtown after V trains are dispatched from Second Avenue.
Cars were lifted from the G as well, snipping that line's trains to
four cars. The Crosstown's run in Queens is now truncated during most
weekday hours to make room for the V. The resulting inconveniences
have been well noted on this board and in the media.
The V was born of a certain necessity, though. The shared E/F
trackage was badly congested between Fifth Avenue and Forest Hills.
That bottleneck is now localized (puns aside) to east of 36th Street
in Queens. Also on the plus side, there's more service between Queens
and Manhattan now, and it creates a second Sixth Avenue option --
particularly important in the aftermath of the Manhattan Bridge
service changes. (Didn't the Queensbridge shuttle run infrequently?)
Yet riders were happier without the V train. The MTA has advertised
the V in papers. They advertised it over station P.A. systems for
months; if you recall, the daily annoucements were in the parlance of
some emergency reroute. So, people are well aware of the new service.
It's just that not many want to use it.
I think the V is worth salvaging in some form. I have some ideas,
which involve keeping the V, that will fix the problems I outlined
above. After the usual period of confusion, I think, most of us
riders would be happier than we are with the present routes or were
with the preceding ones.
1. Cut V train sets to 8 cars. Return 6-car consists to the G.
2. Make some service reductions and enhancements that will leave
overall service levels approximately the same.
a. Rush hours
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 63rd Street.
(V) Queens Blvd. Local via 53rd Street. Extended to 18th Avenue,
Brooklyn.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue.
(M) Brooklyn terminal is 95th Street.
b. Middays
(F) via 53rd Street.
(V) No service.
(Q) Extended to 21st Street-Queensbridge.
(G) Forest Hills to Smith-9th Sts.
(M) No Brooklyn service.
(N) Local in Brooklyn.
c. Evenings
(M) To 36th Street, Brooklyn, until 8 PM.
(N) Local in Brooklyn after 8 PM (7 PM towards Manhattan). Offically!
--Otherwise same as Middays.
c. Weekends
(F) via 53rd Street.
(Q) to Queensbridge.
(G) to Forest Hills.
d. Late nights
(Q) Queens Blvd. Local to Forest Hills via 63rd. Broadway Local via
Bridge.
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 53rd.
(E) Local via 53rd.
(G) Queens terminal is Queens Plaza on Forest Hills-bound local track.
Alt: Turn (G) around east of Queens Plaza. Not too hard at night,
right?
Alt: Shortline (E) or (F) at Queens Plaza. (Q) to 179 (a wholly
original idea) or Jamaica Center.
My Brooklyn rush hour changes ought to decrease delays at 36th
Street/4th Avenue, which are severe at that complex junction.
Is it technically and fiscally feasible? Is it any good?
-n.
The V is currently running with 8 cars. Did you mean reduce it to 6 cars?
First off, some ideas are good,others are bad:
BAD: You cannot just switch the F line midday to the 53rd st line while during rush hours, it goes via. 63rd St. You confuse people at 50th St in Manhattan and Roosevelt/Jackson Heights in finding out if they can transfer to the #6 at Lex Ave directly or use the Metrocard transfer and walk 3 blocks south from 63rd st to 60th st/Lexington. And even if the V is extended to 18th Ave, no trains can run express on a steady schedule from Jay to Church until NYCT installs a permanent interlocking system at Bergen Tower (due to the 1998 fire), only an interim system is being used.
BAD: M line has two terminals at two branches (95th on the R and you cannot have M trains relay at 36th st. this means than all other lines at 8 PM (W, N and R) must run local), might as well bring back the RJ (later RR service between 95th and Chambers) And if you want to lessen rush hour delays, why not bring the M back where it belongs in the first place: the Brighton Line (after completion of Stillwell terminal in 2004.)
GOOD?: Q to 179th St? I must admit it is a novel approach but more wasteful in resources so why not the F on 63rd st and the E on 53rd st both running to Jamaica.
First off, some ideas are good,others are bad:
BAD: You cannot just switch the F line midday to the 53rd st line while during rush hours, it goes via. 63rd St. You confuse people at 50th St in Manhattan and Roosevelt/Jackson Heights in finding out if they can transfer to the #6 at Lex Ave directly or use the Metrocard transfer and walk 3 blocks south from 63rd st to 60th st/Lexington. And even if the V is extended to 18th Ave, no trains can run express on a steady schedule from Jay to Church until NYCT installs a permanent interlocking system at Bergen Tower (due to the 1998 fire), only an interim system is being used.
BAD: M line has two terminals at two branches (95th on the R and you cannot have M trains relay at 36th st. this means than all other lines at 8 PM (W, N and R) must run local), might as well bring back the RJ (later RR service between 95th and Chambers) And if you want to lessen rush hour delays, why not bring the M back where it belongs in the first place: the Brighton Line (after completion of Stillwell terminal in 2004.)
GOOD?: Q to 179th St? I must admit it is a novel approach but more wasteful in resources so why not the F on 63rd st and the E on 53rd st both running to Jamaica.
But in short the V line was put in at the expense on G riders who now are accustomed sardine-like conditions on the 4 car sets. And when the Manhattan Bound V train is at Queens Plaza, any E train that pulls in must go no more than walking speed (3 to 5 mph). Why not have timer set on red outside QP and have the E wait there until the V leaves safely?
"V" is 100% R46 so they are ALREADY at 8-cars, perhaps you mean running 8-cars at 60-foot (meant: R32) OR this: run it to Eastern Division through the Chrystie/Essex connection (the route of the old "K"), and use Eastern Division cars.
wayne
What would serve 57/6 during non-rush hours?
CG
"Yet riders were happier without the V train."
Says who? Various newspapers and Straphangers interviewed people at express platforms only.
- F train riders have less crowding than before.
- V trains are half full, so someone actually rides them. All those people used to be on E and F trains.
- E train riders are no worse off than before.
-" F train riders have less crowding than before".
Maybe Queens-bound, but Brooklyn-bound F trains during the pm rush are more packed than ever.
"Maybe Queens-bound, but Brooklyn-bound F trains during the pm rush are more packed than ever."
That's got nothing to do with the V train. They haven't reduced the number of rush hour Brooklyn F trains.
The R-143 cars now going into service on the L have reduced the car shortage on the B division, so they could already increase the length of G trains without taking cars away from the V. Having the F run some of the time through 53 St, the rest of the time through 63 St would only confuse passengers. At least the present service is consistent. One thing they should do is stop running the V after about 10 PM (instead of Midnight) and only then start running the G to Forest Hills. I've seen nearly empty G, V and R trains backed up to Woodhaven Blvd at 9:30 PM. There's no need for that much local service at that time. In the future, when the R-160's go into service and the Bergen St tower is repaired, they could free up more cars and extend both the V and the G to Church Ave and have the F run express between Jay St and Church Ave.
>>"1. Cut V train sets to 8 cars."<<
The V has R46's, which ARE 8 car sets.
>>"2. Make some service reductions and enhancements that will leave
overall service levels approximately the same.
a. Rush hours
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 63rd Street.
(V) Queens Blvd. Local via 53rd Street. Extended to 18th Avenue,
Brooklyn.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue.
(M) Brooklyn terminal is 95th Street."<<
Your plan for the V to go to Brooklyn is not possible right now due to a car shortage plus Church Av or Kings Hwy would be better terminals. BTW, according to some subtalkers, the tracks for the terminal is not in good shape so the G plan is knocked out too.
Some of your plans/ideas for the other hours cannot be done due to likeliness to cause delays and would not be feasible overall.
The V, as it is currently run, is a complete success. It has acheived it's goal of getting both E & F capacity below 100% for the first time since WWII. It's ridership has gradually increased and will continue to as more people realize that a V ride with a seat to Lexington/53rd. is better than an E ride on a crowded train.
Talking about changing it is moot. Only the media and the Straphangers have been outspoken against it, but each group has their own reasons to oppose the V which have nothing to do with how the V has been doing the job it was intended for.
Quite true. What aggravates me is that the media/Strappies say that the G got the short end of the stick while room was made for the V. Are any anti-V sentiments warranted by this reason, or is there underlying reasoning behind it?
I post there and most of them are anti-V.
The anti V "campaign" is most likely a result of the G getting the short end of the stick[which it did] HOWEVER the V is a success to me, people are starting to catch on to it and if you guys don't like it then too bad.
That's right,if people don't like the V that's just to bad,they have to accept it and if they refuse to then they can get the hell outta the city.
At first I was skeptical about it but now I see that it did reduce crowding on BOTH the E and F so I don't know what people are complaining about. So it is a success and people are still catching on and the smartest thing was to route the V via 53 St so kudos to the MTA for that. If you guys don't like it tough!
People are complaining that it's a local above all other things.
Well! V Train B47 Bus, we are living in a society where there are tons of things to complain, the weather, our job, school, the place we live in, our government you name it. Unlike the strangerhangers who spend lots of their precious time to complain about subway. I for one, don't waste my personal time complaining about new subway service like the V and W and the system. As matter of fact, I love the new trains and I'm thanking the MTA for doing such wonderful job on improving the system and adding new subway line. Those people who can't appreciate the good things in their life should oughta be a shame of themselves. They acting like childrens who cried to their mom just because others had stole their lollipop.
People at express stations are complaining that it's a local.
Are people at local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza complaining about it? I can't say for sure, since I don't think the Straphangers or any of the newspapers have bothered going to local stations for interviews, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that more of them prefer direct service to 53rd Street and 6th Avenue than direct service to the Crosstown line. Express passengers to 6th Avenue are better off than before (their F trains are less crowded via 63rd, and those who don't mind a local have the V as an alternate option), and arguably 8th Avenue passengers are, too (with 15 tph, up from 12).
If they'd restore 6 car G trains, the last major reasonable anti-G complaint will be eliminated.
Agreed.
I would also hope that the process of improving the LIC station cluster will continue, improving passenger comfort and convenience there and following through on a promise to bring ADA compliance there.
"What aggravates me is that the media/Strappies say that the G got the short end of the stick while room was made for the V."
This is absolutely true. A relatively small number of people has been somewhat inconvenienced to make life better for a far larger number.
"Are any anti-V sentiments warranted by this reason, or is there underlying reasoning behind it?"
No and some. My personal opinion is that the Straphangers are intrinsically anti-establishment. Whatever good the MTA does, they want it even better. This role is actually a useful one, as long as one doesn't take them too seriously.
The newspapers also have their own motives. They want to sell papers with stories about how the ordinary guy is being screwed by the big guys. Stories about how lots of people's commutes are a little less stressful don't sell papers.
If the MTA got rid of the V, increasing crowding on the F again, imagine the howls you'd get from both the papers and the Straphangers!
I'm not sure if it is a complete success, particularly on the E at times. However, I'll say that the V has definitely reduced crowding. While it is true that G train riders got the short end of the stick (only 4 75-ft. cars and it not going to Queens Blvd during weekdays), the V helped more than it hurt. I'll readily admit that I was one of those who wasn't very sure that the V would do more good than harm when it first started running. Now I'm convinced that it should be kept.
The V Train only runs 8 Car length, because 10 75' Cars would be to long for the station and 2 cars would be stuck in the tunnel.
Actually the V has been a godsend to the Queens BLVD line. IIRC the E and F are now below 100% capacity for once, and V trains are getting fuller by the month.
Keep the V, extend it to the eastern division over the williamsburg bridge through Chrystie St(as was mentioned in a different thread), knock it down to 6 75' cars and bring those cars back to the G. That should help alleviate the crowding on the G. The only problem is where to turn the V's back around in Bklyn...hmmm...
-Jeff
Better to use 8-car trains of R32s, because 75-foot cars are not permitted in the East. V trains can operate to Metropolitan Avenue. Shouldn't be a problem at all and Myrtle riders would have only have to take one train to midtown, not two or three like now.
I caught 6831 a little while go, and above the '5 Lexington Avenue' strip map sign was a message in red "Route Change-This map not in use".
Has anyone else seen it?
That is a standard message on the R142/142A. I have seen a a few times.
This message applies when the cars assigned to a specific route (such as the #2 rerouted on the #5 line) are diverted. So if the #5 line was diverted to the West Side, that message appears in the lower left side of the strip map and the next stop/current time display will go dark since it cannot be used also.
But does anyone notice on all the R142 stripmaps, the transfers are incorrect or missing? (B and D line at Atlantic Ave, and Bleecker Street. Missing S shuttle at Franklin Ave, Q and W lines at Canal, 14th St (east side), Tines Square (West side), W at 59th st (East Side) These transfers date back to 1999 before the Shuttle transfer at Franklin Ave was completed
They all have it, it just normally is not lit up. I rode a 2 train last week that got a skip from Gun Hill Road to 241st. After it announced "This is 219th Street", the conductor turned off the LED displays, route maps, and automated announcements, as seen below:
From the MTA site - J Line Service to run every 20mins. between 111th St and Jamaica Ctr, Saturday and Sunday. I would assume this means every other J train will turn back at 111th St to Manhattan, while those going to Parsons/Archer will run single track after 121th St. How does that effect us? Can we go there even with a GO? Perhaps we'll get turned back at Crescent St. Just a thought....
-Stef
According to the General Order, we're relaying at 111th Street. I'm sure we'll be threaded in there somehow -- the G.O. for the fantrip was designed to work around other GOs in effect this weekend.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Dave: About three weeks ago I sent a request to the NYD to purchase a quantity of the Bulletins. I included a SSAE and wanted to know how much it was cost me. AS of yet no one has replied. Did the NYD ever receive my letter?
My e-mail address is RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
David - great trip. The ERA staff was courteous and friendly Peggy had a great time and enjoyed meeting you after seeing your posts. Mark W was the conductor and he was great== gave a running commentary. I just wish Peggy would let me out of the house sometime!
Maybe one of these days Peggy will let me go and she'll stay home!
As of now, We are relaying at Crescent Street. As you know..... Fantrips on paper are never the same when it happens.
I guess we'll make do with what we have. Going some place is better than going to no place at all...
-Stef
Who knows.... Time saved there may make for more time to go someplace else!
-Mark
Yeah, like hooking up to a couple of red diesels and heading out to Costco for dinner! LOL! Now wouldn't THAT be an interesting Redbird trip? :)
If you relay at Crescent St tomorrow, your train will be less than 100 feet of where I spent the first 21 years of my life so many years ago.
I lived in the fourth house on the north side of Campus Place, the first short block north of Fulton St, and east of the el. This put me about 80 feet from the el on Crescent St.
I'll bet that my neighborhood has changed a lot since 1957! In those days, the middle track on Crescent St was only used to turn work trains.
In the 1960's, the siding didn't have switches at its north end. Did they have to put girders in the middle of the structure to install them ?
The only switches were on the south end in my time. The original Cypress Hills station was a center platform station on Crescent St prior to 1916. There may have been crossover girder work still existing from that time that might have been reused. I honestly don't know since I have not been under the el in that area since 1957.
The story from the Boston Globe.
Why dosen't the MBTA just run the MBTA? I mean SEPTA runs SEPTA, NJt runs NJT, MTA runs the LIAR and MNRR. Sure if the service was small like Shore Line East or long haul like out in California it makes sense to use Amtrak to eliminate overhead costs, but otherwise the transit agency should run the trains.
In fact the T says that is something they will consider after this five year contract period is over.
From the boston herald
Group led by ex-T boss proposed to run commuter rail
by Doug Hanchett
Friday, December 6, 2002
In one of the Bay State's biggest transit decisions in decades, the MBTA has selected an international consortium led by a former T general manager as the prospective operator of its vast commuter rail network.
If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week, the joint venture would take over commuter rail operations from Amtrak on July 1.
According to the T's selection committee, Mass Bay trumped former commuter rail operator Boston & Maine Corp. with its technical proposal. At $2.2 billion, B&M's bid was also double that of Mass Bay's.
``By choosing the proposal that offered the lowest price and earned the highest technical evaluation, the T is confident this recommendation will serve both to contain costs and improve the quality of service for years to come,'' said T spokesman Joe Pesaturo.
Mass Bay consists of European rail giant Connex, Montreal's Bombardier Transportation and the Boston-based Alternate Concepts. It was widely expected to win the contract, especially after a third company, Transit America, failed to outline a viable financial package.
A spokeswoman for Mass Bay said it was ``premature'' to comment until the T board takes up the matter next week.
Alternate Concepts is run by former T General Manager James O'Leary and includes a smattering of other former T employees. It also has offered a job to former commuter rail boss Kevin Lydon, who was fired by Amtrak earlier this year despite being widely respected by the work force.
Alternate Concepts runs some local bus services for the T and had been partners in Harbor Cruises, which run ferry boats around Boston Harbor and to Hingham.
The biggest hurdle Mass Bay will face in the coming months is negotiating a contract with the T's 1,600 commuter rail workers.
Workers have said they're seeking a ``significant'' wage increase, noting that they're paid 15 to 20 percent less than other commuter rail workers in the Northeast.
Mass Bay had preliminary conversations with union officials in early October, just before the bids were due. According to a memo obtained by the Herald, the company was dangling a $2,000 signing bonus in front of the workers, offering annual 3 to 4 percent pay hikes and giving them two additional sick days per year.
The memo from the Transport Workers Union of America states Mass Bay was seeking an ``agreement in principle,'' which it failed to get.
``The offer was not acceptable to all the unions,'' Charlie Moneypenny, chairman of the MBTA Commuter Rail Labor Coalition said yesterday. ``Nonetheless . . . people appreciated their outreach and they gave us a signal they wanted to work with us.''
B&M issued a statement yesterday saying that while it was ``disappointed'' with the T's decision, it was also ``proud'' to be one of the two finalists.
B&M ran the T's commuter rail in the 1980s until then-general manager O'Leary replaced them after serious labor strife. The company was replaced by Amtrak, which has been in charge since.
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid, saying the T's new contract wasn't fiscally viable.
In a memo to Amtrak's board of directors, Amtrak president David Gunn blasted the T for carrying out ``a mockery of the competitive bidding process'' by putting ``labor in an incredibly powerful bargaining position.''
Gunn has clashed with T general manager Mike Mulhern repeatedly since taking over as Amtrak's boss in May. Over the summer, he threatened a nationwide shutdown that would have brought the T's commuter rail to a halt.
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually and give the T tighter controls over the service.
>>> If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week ...
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid ...
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually .... <<<
Very interesting arithmetic. Amtrak is now getting $180 million a year, The T is signing a new contract for $1.1 billion over five years, but it will be saving $10 million annually. If I could handle my own budget that well I too would be a Republican politician.
Tom
on car #3725 on the R-32 N train, they have a yellow B rollsign with destinations from Lefferts Station to some Brooklyn station (couldn't see that clearly). Anyone know the history on it?
Between 1986 and 1988, Manhattan Bridge service was similar, but not exactly the same as now.
Today's Circle-Q was the yellow D and the W was the yellow B.
The major difference between the two services centered around the Astoria & Brighton line. The yellow B only ran north of Queensboro Plaza during rush hours. On the Brigton line the express tracks were not in use and D/Q trains ran a "skip-stop" service to local stations similar to J/Z service today. Here's how it ran:
Parkside Ave: Q only
Beverley Road: D only
Cortelyou Road: Q only
Ave. H: D only
Ave. J: Q only
Ave. M: D only
Ave. U: Q only
Neck Road: D only
It actually ran smoother than today's express/local service. Without the merger south of Prospect Park trains maintained even spacing and service didn't back up until you reached Atlantic Ave.
The yellow B [and yellow D] was born when the first Manny B reconstruction in 1986 forced the B and D FROM Brooklyn to run via Broadway express. Both lines ran in 2 sections:
Orange B: via 6 Av--> 34 St to 168 St
Yellow B: via Bway--> Coney Island to Astoria via Bway and Astoria[in the reverse peak] express
Orange D: via 6 Av--> 34 St to 205 St
Yellow D: via Bway--> Coney Island to 57 St via Bway express
Construction lasted 2 years and was restored to their regular routes in 1988.
Here it is:
The "yellow" B ran from late April 1986 to mid December 1988. From 4/86 to late May 1987, it ran from Queensboro Plaza middays, weekends, and evenings. It was extended to Astoria during rush hours only.
After the N/R terminal swap of 5/24/87, yellow B service was modified. It continued to run to Astoria during rush hours and Queensboro Plaza during middays. On weekends and late evenings, it terminated at 57th/7th.
The yellow B NEVER, EVER ran express on the Astoria line, despite what others have said and what's stated on this website.
"The yellow B NEVER, EVER ran express on the Astoria line, despite what others have said and what's stated on this website."
Was there EVER express service on the Astoria Line except for the brief recent fling by the W?
Was there EVER express service on the Astoria Line except for the brief recent fling by the W?
No: The Astoria express track was only used for layups and later for service diversions.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Didn't the IRT run express service on the Astoria line in the 30's & 40's?
I believe so, during the IRT/BMT joint service.
thanks for the clear up :)
I took a brief trip to Princeton Jct Friday (instead of eating lunch) to get Amtrak snow pix. NJT Arrow III #1311 was on the layup track waiting to be Dinky train #3839, so my effort was instantly rewarded.
Two Amtrak trains roared through simultaneously (one in each direction) at 11:45 just as NJT train #3842 pulled out 3 minutes late, blocking view of both AEM7-hauled Amtrak trains. My brief visit was further salvaged when NJT train #3835 came in, since it was a train of Comet V cars pulled by ALP-44M #4422.
Great Pictiures Bob. Makes me look forward to my upcoming transfer to New England this Feb(hopefully) even more!! One question though, how did you get the photo link to work on the message? I also use webshots and havent had any luck ....yet.
Thanks and great shots,
Steve Loitsch
<a href=url>NAME OF LINK works for me.
Forexample, <a href=http://community.webshots.com/photo/28673609/28674633kGGKobuCQi>snow shot becomes snow shot.
That helpful hint lost some characters between preview and post.
Another attempt:
<a href=url>NAME OF LINK</a> works for me.
Forexample, <a href=http://community.webshots.com/photo/28673609/28674633kGGKobuCQi>snow shot</a> becomes snow shot.
If this works this is for Sparky and his question about my 1st time at Branford.members day 1974 Thanks Bob for the help. BTW Sparky did you get the video yet?
Steve Loitsch
It worked great. Now tell us which of the personages was you. Glad you took chuchubob's posting hint(s). Show us more.
Dan, it is hard to tell but I am the kid with the blue hood, about 3 years old. My Father is the one in the Army green shirt pointing at something.
Steve Loitsch
I recognize your father and....is that Mike Scholl in the background?
Are you in the picture? Can you identify anyone else?
Jeff,
Yep that is Mike. Up on the brick is Tom Shade(next to Dad) and behind Dad, in the tan clothes is Gene Carson. I am in the picture, next to Tom Shade, I'm the one with the blue hood. I am not sure who that is with his back to us. The lady with the glasses would be my mother.
Steve
That detail doesn't really show too well on the web-version that
you posted. How can you even tell that's O.E.? His face isn't
visible. Is it from the caption on your hardcopy?
I have another slide taken shortly after that one and clearly shows Gene. That and my Dad mentioned who was there
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the trip "Down Memory Lane", now where have I heard that
before? Did enjoy the pixs posted.
;-) Sparky
Hey, could I possibly use that shot of 4422 for a website I am making about NEC interlocking towers for www.signalbox.org ? I'd give you credit of course.
Yes
Great shots Bob. I'll be seeing that station every day sometime soon. My job is transferring to that location from NYC sometime between June or July.
It is a great spot for viewing. Thanks for the photos Bob.
Paul
Nice! I've been wanting to see some Comet V cars in action.
FYI, WMATAGMOAGH & all:
There are 315 R-62s on the 4 and 304 (total) R-62As on the 3, including 10 for the S. The new assignments would be 315 R-62s on the 3 (all service) and 38 R-33s, 294 R-62As and 70 R-142As on the 4, with 10 R-62A singles off the 4 for the Grand Central Shuttle. In time, when 290 Option I/II R-142s are delivered for the 4, these would replace the R-33s and all except 55 single R-62As would be transferred to Corona for the 7.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I am mad because the best fleet in the system is going to a hand me down line like the 3, which is upsetting to me. These R-62A better be good, or I will be upset, but I know Concourse and Mosholu will take care of them.
Thanks!
Oh no! I can't imagine the #4 without those beloved R-62's.
Wayne
Thanks to all who enjoyed my photos and the positive feedback. I used to live in the Ridgewood area before I moved to Kew Gardens. That is why I like to photograph around Fresh Pond so much.
I was riding the F towards Manhattan this morning around 9:30 and at Bergen St, the C/R and the tower announced that F trains were going to get detoured through the Crosstown line b/c of a stalled train in Manhattan. Man people were pissed off and were angry, luckily it didn't afect me b/c I was getting off at Jay St and I could just take the A or C from Hoyt to Jay. I wanted to ride it but I had a class for 10 & started to run late and didn't want to take the chance [and I had a R32 on the F :-(]. So we got held at Bergen for 5 minutes then we proceeded via the G to Hoyt Schemerhorn St, where I went to catch the A which got packed like a sardine can until Jay St. At Jay, they did NOT say a stalled train was causing delays on the F and suggested people continue on the A to Manhattan.
R32 3760 (F)
R32 3404 (A)
(Man people were pissed off and were angry)
Including my wife which is unfortunate because I work for the TA, and can be complained to personally. My children's school had a delayed opening today, and I offered to stay behind to bring them in at 9:30, and then work late. My wife left for work at 8:00. I got to work at 9:48. She got to work at 9:50.
When passengers get angry over sudden detours, this is frequently due to the TA's failure to announce alternatives, aided and abetted by the passengers' own abysmal ignorance of the system
Of course, the lack of announcements is usually the bigger problem; but, in the case you describe, appalling passenger ignorance may have played a significant role as well in creating the anger of the passengers.
This morning's F riders could just have stayed on the F (running as a G) to Court Square, and could then have taken a V into Manhattan from there. This probably was obvious to some; and there ought to have been an announcement for the benefit of those for whom this was not obvious.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It would of benefitted those who were going to Queens and its a faster route so I wouldn't have been upset. Sometimes passengers do get ignorant & upset but they should announce alternatives, which THEY DID on the F train but at Jay St, they suggested people going to Manhattan that they use the A.
>>"This morning's F riders could just have stayed on the F (running as a G) to Court Square, and could then have taken a V into Manhattan from there. This probably was obvious to some; and there ought to have been an announcement for the benefit of those for whom this was not obvious."<<
People could have just taken the "crosstown special" to Queens Plaza and go around to the other side and catch the V. That is a more efficient transfer than Court Sq plus it was headed toward 179 St.
There go those R32's on the A again!
wayne
They ran a ten car consist on the "A" today. Could not catch the numbers but the cars were N: GE R32s; R38s; six MK R32s S.
That's an interesting-sounding mixed bag, three different kinds in one bunch. R32 on the "A" is always a treat. Come to think of it, so are the R38s. They should seriously consider swapping the "C" and "A" stock once they get some additional cars in. Only problem is can Pitkin Yard hold them?
wayne
I agree the R32 is a treat on the A; also a R32/R38 mix is a treat too :-) however catching a R38 on the A is just as common as catching a R44. Now if another car model like a R68 shows up, then that is something.
R68s on the "A", oh, God help us please. It took the TA over 20 years to get those slow R44s to somewhat of a decent speed now we have to deal with slower R68s - oh no.
But, I understand what you meant. Truth be told, after everything I just said, if a saw an R68 on the "A", I'd run over everybody on that platform to get to it. LOL
I would probably do that too ;-). But in all seriousness that would be a real head turner if the R68's ever makes it way to the A and C in daily service.
Actually, one time it did. It was back in 1991. I was waiting at Euclid Ave for the Far Rockaway "A" and looked down the tunnel. I saw the blue circled "A" approaching, but there was something different about this circle. I just assumed that the R44s were receiving new roll signs. Next thing I know this R68A comes crawling into the station.
No, it was not a re-routed "D". Every sign on that train, including the rollsigns between the cars were marked "A".
Unfortunately, it was going to Lefferts Blvd. Damn it. Nevertheless, I was in a hurry, so I couldn't ride it to Lefferts Blvd., then back to Manhattan like I wanted to, so I rode it to Rockaway Blvd.
It was a beautiful ride although short. Those trains were still new (2 to 3 yrs old). Not at all like the R68As of today.
That was the only time I witnessed an R68/R68A on the "A".
Oh, so it DID run on the A once[possibly more] but it was 1991 and they moved around rolling stock more often than now. I wonder what a R68/R68A would be like 'flying' down the Rockaway tracks.
Turtle derby. :o>
wayne
Huffing and puffing all the way.
Probably be a faster ride if we got off and ran along side of it. I'd place my money on us.
You're probably right.
With all due respect to the friskiness exhibited by the R-68s during my visit in October, I would give up riding on the A if they were ever assigned there on a long term basis.
What "friskiness" occured on a R68 that would cause that [if you want to say so]? I don't see the A and C having R68's in the forseeable future and whatever the A gets, the C usually gets as well [I know R44's normally don't run on the C].
The R-68s really moved along Broadway on the circle Q and CPW on the D.
I can't lie about that, the R68's really move when they are on express runs, especially on the Q via Broadway but I miss them on the Brighton express [but I like the slants too]. I wish they had a mix of R40's and R68's on the Q like the N.
They did that one month after 9/11 when the Q went to Forest Hills to replace the R.Some Q diamond's had R40 slants,some had R68's.I managed to ride an R68 along the Brighton once during that time.It was really nice.
Yes, I remember seeing a few R68 Q diamond's shortly after 9/11 but it came from the N. The (Q) recieved R32's and R46's from the R as well to replace it, man there was good service on the Q but I didn't ride the Q that much during the detour from 9/11 to 10/28. Kudos to the MTA for routing selected lines [J,M,Q,1] so well.
Yes, I remember seeing a few R68 Q diamond's shortly after 9/11 but it came from the N. The (Q) recieved R32's and R46's from the R as well to replace it, man there was good service on the Q but I didn't ride the Q that much during the detour from 9/11 to 10/28. Kudos to the MTA for rerouting selected lines [J,M,Q,1] so well.
I saw a pic of an R46 on the Q but during the whole time I never saw one single R46 on the Q.It was either a R32 or an R68.How often did the R46's run on the Q during that time? Damn,it would've been wicked cool to ride one.
I recall reading of only one R-46 sighting on the Q. For the most part, the local had R-68's and R-32's and the express had R-40's (which makes sense, since the express was unchanged). There were occasional exceptions, of course.
Yeah that was on 9/23/01.The pic of it is right here on the Subway Resources web page.
The locals also ran R40s.
Occasionally, perhaps, but not on a regular basis.
During the aftermath of 9/11, the "Q" circle did indeed run R40s on a regular basis.
I know right :-( but you never know a occasional R46 can show up again one day on the Q.
They chould put the slants back on the A.
I like that idea, if CI is willing to part with the 4400s again.
wayne
If the slants were to come back on the A, would you trade the R40's for the R32, R38, R44 or a mixture of any of the 3 car classes. I think it wouldn't be the same as the 80's though, especially with all the timers & stuff, it won't have the same 'excitement'.
I would move any stock displaced by the influx (read: R44) to the "C".
As for the timers, you are right; but the thought of a Slant screaming through Cranberry-Tube at 52mph gives me goose bumps!
wayne
Even in the Cranberry tunnel, the trains don't go as fast as they used to b/c of timers [I only know there are timers on the Manhattan bound tube] and I think T/O's are being a little safer now.
I'd settle for a slant rocketing along CPW. Reminds me of that live wire I rode on Easter Sunday in 1978.
That's interesting. I rode was riding the F train to Jay Street and planning to change to the C to get to work at Spring Street Friday morning (got on F train a little after 9am at Seventh Ave). When they changed the F to a G at Bergen, I thought that I could stay and get a V, but I figured it would take too long since I was going to lower Manhattan.
When I got to Jay Street, the A and C trains were cancelled going to lower Manhattan. The A and C trains were continuing to come into the station and drop people off, so getting back on the F (I got off the F before knowing the C was cancelled) was not likely as it was now overcrowded. I ended up transferring to the 5, then the 6 and walking a stretch and being an hour late to work.
Just curiously, anybody know why the A/C to Manhattan cancelled?
That's interesting. I rode was riding the F train to Jay Street and planning to change to the C to get to work at Spring Street Friday morning (got on F train a little after 9am at Seventh Ave). When they changed the F to a G at Bergen, I thought that I could stay and get a V, but I figured it would take too long since I was going to lower Manhattan.
When I got to Jay Street, the A and C trains were cancelled going to lower Manhattan. The A and C trains were continuing to come into the station and drop people off, so getting back on the F (I got off the F before knowing the C was cancelled) was not likely as it was now overcrowded. I ended up transferring to the 5, then the 6 and walking a stretch and being an hour late to work.
Just curiously, anybody know why the A/C to Manhattan was cancelled?
As I'm sure most of you know tommorrow is December 7. It will be the 61st Anniversary of the Japanese attack on Parl Harbor.
December 7 is also a date that figures in subway history.
On December 7,1962 a water main break at 18 Street and 6 Avenue caused a suspension of all 6 Avenue subway service between 34 Street and West 4 Street and all PATH service between New Jersey and 33 Street.
Several intersting re-routes were put into effect because of this.
Service on the A,E,GG and HH was unaffected. The AA ran between 168 Street and Hudson Terminal but only during rush hours. The BB ran between 168 Street and 34 Street-6 Avenue during non-rush hours. The CC was discontinued for the emergency.
The C was brought back to run between Bedford Park Boulevard and 34 Street-6 Avenue in rush hours. C's ran express between Tremont Avenue and 59 Street in the direction of heavy traffic and between 145 Street and 59 Street in the direction of light traffic.
The D continued to operate between 205 Street and Coney Island but during non-rush hours only via CPW express and 8 Avenue local tracks switching back to the regular route below West 4 Street.
The DD ran between 205 Street and Coney Island during rush hours as a local via 8 Avenue and Houston Street.
Normal service was restored in about two weeks.
It was the first time that the C had run since 1949.
It was the first and only time that the DD ever ran.
The only double letter IND service that has never been operated was the FF. Even the EE ran briefly as a Queens-8 Avenue Lcl way back in 1936.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Joe Korner has a scan of a service notice sign/brochure from the watermain break on his web site http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor.
Also note that EE was used for Broadway (BMT) - Queens Blvd service, Continental Ave. to Whitehall St., starting in 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: One of the places that I found documentary evidence for the first EE was a BOT servie notice which is currently posted in BRT BU 1227 at Branford. (Plug)
Larry, RedbirdR33
Too bad you didn't mention that back on Subtalk Day.:)
Oh well, it didn't come up that day.
Steve: WE had so much to talk about that day. Besides we ran the R-9, remember?
Larry, RedbirdR33
And 1962 was the last year that the Triplex BMT#4 ran as the Sea Beach.
And the Mets came into being in 1962. They lost 120 games that year. Supposedly Casey Stengel said at one point, "Can't anybody here play this game?"
Did you know Gil Hodges hit the first home run in Met history?
What do you think of Tom Glavine signing with the Amazins?
December 7th also marks the 9th anniversary of when gunman Colin Ferguson opened fire on the L.I.R.R., which killed several people and wounded many others. -Nick
I certainly remember that day back in 1993 when Colin Ferguson shot 6 people dead and wounded perhaps 18 others. Carol McCarthy who was the wife of Dennis McCarthy [shot dead] and the mother of Kevin McCarthy [shot and critically wounded] became the U.S. reprsentative in her district after elections in 1996.
#3 West End Jeff
The only double letter IND service that has never been operated was the FF. Even the EE ran briefly as a Queens-8 Avenue Lcl way back in 1936.
It's funny how some subjects come up again every once in a while. This thread from 4 years ago this month dealt with the subject of which IND letter designations had ever been used.
(note that just about everyone in that thread who still posts on Subtalk has changed their "Handle" at least somewhat since then. Is Mellow One still here?)
Listening to the Staten Island Railway dispatcher at 5pm, St. George Terminal for the SIR was closed. Power was removed from tracks 1 to 4. People were bused to/from Tomkinsville, all west bound trains discharged at Tomkinsville and most turned there. The schedule was thrown out the window with the Disptacher making up what run would go express or local. Trains were turned at Great Kills, Anadale and Tottenville (pardon the spelling) as determined by the Dispatcher.
Crews reported problems closing up at Tomkinsville as the buses came in packs. At around 6pm they were talking about restoring service at St. George, when I left for dinner they were talking about having service back for the 6:47 boat.
Anyone know what happened at St. George?
This all made for intresting listening, the SIR is run by the Dispatcher in Tower B at St. George but he has no display as to where the trains are once they leave St. George. He was calling different runs (SIR calls each crew/run by a letter in the military alphabet) to report where they were and determining when to turn them. All radio traffic from MOW to Police and Operation Supervisors is transmitted through the dispatcher so you can hear when they call for sand for the Tomkinsville overpass to the Operations Supervisor saying they will restore service. By the time I started listening whatever happened was not said over the radio.
It was a water pipe rupture in the terminal.
The Terps play the Tennesee(sp?) Volunteers in the Peach Bowl New Year's Eve at the Georgia Dome. But between the time you asked and i typed this, you might have already found out
GO TERPS!
btw, anything of great significance about the transit system in atlanta, georgia?
no, I havent. Thanx
It is alot like the DC MetroRail. Some trains are built by Breda, and there are many similarities between the two systems. Click here for pictures.
>>> If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week ...
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid ...
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually .... <<<
Very interesting arithmetic. Amtrak is now getting $180 million a year, The T is signing a new contract for $1.1 billion over five years, but it will be saving $10 million annually. If I could handle my own budget that well I too would be a Republican politician.
Tom
SUBTALKERS:
If you would like to receive a postcard invitation to "The Tubes" historical exhibit in Hoboken (more info below), forward your mailing address via email to:
jclandmarks@earthlink.net
The show promises to be the first comprehensive exhibit of the 1874 Hudson Tunnels, the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, and PATH. Please forward this post to interested subway enthusiasts, museums, collectors, etc.
************************************************
The Hoboken Historical Museum and
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy present:
"The Tubes: Rails Under the Hudson
1874 to the present-day PATH"
Guest Curator, Terry Kennedy
Members' Opening Reception: Sunday, January 19, 2003 3 p.m. ú 5 p.m.
"The Tubes" opens to the public Tuesday, January 21, 2003, through Sunday, April 13, 2003
Hoboken Historical Museum
1301 Hudson Street
Hoboken, NJ
(201) 656-2240
Museum open: Tuesday - Thursday 5-9 p.m.
Saturday & Sunday 12-5 p.m.
For directions: www.hobokenmuseum.org
From January 19, 2003 through April 13, 2003, the Hoboken Historical Museum and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy will present "The Tubes: Hudson & Manhattan's Rails Under the Hudson, 1874 to the Present-day PATH," an exhibition at the Hoboken Historical Museum on the development of the Hudson Tunnels, from 1874 until their completion over 30 years later, and their inclusion into the PATH rapid transit system.
For more info visit: www.jclandmarks.org
"The Tubes" was assisted by a grant from the New Jersey Historical Commission, a division of Cultural Affairs in the Department of State. Complementary slide lectures were made possible by a grant from the New Jersey Council for the Humanities, a state partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities. Additional exhibit support was provided by Alpine Custom Floors and Alpine Restoration, Sign Graphics, Metro Fire & Communication, Shore Contracting, and John Wiley & Sons.
I was about to check my calendar, when I thought "how can I get to Hoboken without the PATH?"
PATH is still running to Hoboken. Only the WTC and Exchange Place stations are down. You can also catch NY Waterway ferries to Hoboken.
And for those of use who may prefer rubber tired transit - there are NJ Transit and Academy buses from PABT to Hoboken. And not to slight NJ residents who may not want to drive - there are many NJ Transit commuter rail and bus routes that terminate at the Hoboken Terminal, a large and beautifully restored building that is worth seeing in its own right.
Note that the Hoboken Terminal is at the other end of Hoboken from the Hoboken Historical Museum (but that's only 14 blocks or so). Taxis within Hoboken are flat-rate ($3, I think). There is a ferry terminal (Hoboken North) just a few steps from the Museum - follow the pedestrian walkway to Hudson St. and the Museum entrance is in the walkway, on the right. It is only a few blocks from the base of the Viaduct and Willow Ave (5 blocks east, 1 block south).
I will be spending a lot of time at the Museum while the exhibition is open - if anyone wants to discuss specific topics or get more information on individual items, I'll be glad to oblige. I suggest that if you plan on attending at a specific date/time, you email me first to make sure I'll be there then.
do they still park trains in the tunnel on heavy snow strom.
Yes they do. They did that yesterday and today.
Friday evening layups were put in their regularly scheduled places. Cold weather Plan #1 in effect. All that means is to run long trains (not that anybody "cuts" anymore except for OPTO and they are running normally), leave compressors and convertors cut in (again in practice, they are never cut out anyway) and at the discretion of local supervision, trains are laid up with the air brake system charged.
As I was watching the start of Law and Order" Special Victims Unit, the first scene was a subway station at W 4th Street and a woman was getting ready to jump off the tracks when the train came. The train it turned out was the N Sea Beach, my train. At least those who produce the show know class when they see one. They paid no attention to what the TA has done to my favorite line, but rather went with the best. They could have pick the A train, the Q , the R, or whatever, but they didn't. They picked my train. Hotcha Hotcha Hotcha.
"As I was watching the start of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit, the first scene was a subway station at W 4th Street and a woman was getting ready to jump off the tracks when the train came. The train it turned out was the N Sea Beach, my train."
Since when does the N train stop at W 4th St? Make that When has the N train ever stopped at W 4th St?
>>>When has the N train ever stopped at W 4th St? <<<
back in the summer of 2000 GO when TA doing repair on prince, 23, and 8 st station. N was rerouted over the B line between 21 St Queensbridge and pacific. At that time there were no service on the broadway line between canal and 42. The R runs in two section between court and 95 and 42 and 71 continental ave. N run the 6th Ave and N was shuttled between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria
Well, I guess you can't say "Never" in that case.:)
So much for Freddy knowing 'his line'.
Maybe Fred's having a "Senior Moment" due to the lack of ice and snow in his Southern California "hacienda"! We folks in the "real world" don't have that problem. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to scrape the ice from my windshield.
Heh, a re-route at Dekalb Ave ... over the Manhattan Bridge :)
--Mark
Actually, it didn't look like West 4th Street Station. I could have sworn the tile captions said "CHURCH," but it didn't really look like Church Avenue Station either.
- Lyle Goldman
Most likely that was the filming that some had reported was going on at Church Avenue on the Culver line.
I haven't seen that particular episode, but it might have also been another 're-dress' of Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street.
Assuming the scene was shot in an IND station, What were the colors on the tile in the background?
The station was Church Avenue/McDonald Avenue (F train).
David
I thought I saw 4th Street on the sign. I am not really sure of that, but I am certain what I saw pull into the station. That was what captured my attention. It was a Sea Beach train. Maybe on the re-run two months from now I can see if I mistook the station.
They put W 4 signs on the station platform but shot the kid with the station wall in the background, and it said Church Av. The N shot was separate from the platform scenes and could have been done anywhere.
Wasn't something else filmed there in the last year? I think I heard in here a Woody Allen movie.
Men in Black II has subway scenes shot at Church Ave. disguised as 81st St. (who are they trying to kid?)
Considering Hollywood, they'll kid as many people as possible. And claim "artistic license" the more outrageious the disguises.
The tiles in the color band were purplish, just like in the real Church Avenue station. However, I could have sworn the interior band was three tiles high, even though it is only two tiles high in the real station (although I might have been looking at the outside tiles, too; it went by so fast). Also, the tile walls seemed to be a bit too clean for either West Fourth Street or Church Avenue (although that could have been because the walls were slightly blurred, which is understandable considering that wasn't the most important part of the scene, except maybe for us (:-)).
Next time that episode is on, I'll try to remember to tape the beginning and examine it more closely.
- Lyle Goldman
There was one instant where the tiles could be read as "CHURCH", albiet somewhat a blur. More interesting, however, is a later scene on the same show. The detectives are watching the 'station video' of the event. On the tape, at the instant that the young lady attempts to jump, the videotape shows a train on the local track as well as the one on the express. This was not the case in the original scene.
Guys, I started this post and all I can say that I don't give a hoot in hell what station it was. I only know and have to know that the train they showed was an N, my Sea Beach, not some other guy's Brighton, or M, or J, or D, or anything else. It showed me the program had class----and that's that.
Even more class--Ice T refers to the train as the Downtown Express. I think that hasn't been the case for twelve years.
My favorite version of L&O is "Law and Order: Elevator Inspectors Unit."
An R68 to take a shot. It definitely was an IND station with blue support columns. Where it was was a thing to me. Nice shots though!
Is it me, or has the nycsubway.org home page been rearranged?
- Lyle Goldman
It has been rearranged.
I think it looks good.
Simon
Swindon UK
Agreed. Redecorating every once in a while to keep things fresh is a good idea.
--Mark
Yes, my wife knows all about that :(
Some people think that decorating is more fun the railfanning.
Simon
Swindon UK
My wife has threated to put the house up for sale once it's been redecorated because it would be no fun to be in the house anymore once it was all done.
I reminded her that her statement can't be true because once my model subway layout was finished, it was still fun. And that was before I put it back in an unfinished state to have more fun :) I suggested that she could re-redecorate :)
--Mark
Yes, it was rearranged a few days ago.
December 5, to be exact.
Yes, it has. Very nice how you indicated that with you centering that message. :-)
Personally, I don't like how it was rearranged. I liked it the old way.
> Yes, it has. Very nice how you indicated that with you centering that message. :-)
Actually, I only indented it, like I indent all my paragraphs. I guess, depending on the size of your screen, it looks centered. It wasn't to indicate anything.
(:-)
- Lyle Goldman
lmao! Understood.
I like the BMT standard car, which is still at the bottom of this page. Standard cars are great.
It looks much easier to use, now that everything has been arranged
vertically.
The old design used too much room and had text across the screen horizontally, which was hard to read.
Where is the best place for taking photo of njtransit ALP46 over the weekend?
Hmmm...try Hoboken Terminal.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
We love the ALP46...
0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.
While I write this I am hearing on the radio...
"One system carrying the holdiday spirit- MTA going your way"
(0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.)
And private sector workers are getting? Here is the thing, wages are relative. Private sector taxpayers are hurting. Inflation is 1.4 percent, but housing prices are about to start falling. Not that I would expect us public servants to hurt as much -- we don't get as much on the upside, either.
Let's say inflation was five percent. And they were offering 3.6 percent per year over three years. In reality, it's the same thing. That's known as the "money illusion," and a reason why some economists have argued that you need a little inflation to grease the economy.
So zero percent isn't unreasonable, but the contract should be for one year, not three. What happens if conditions improve in 12 months? You don't want to be locked in to a lower figure.
It is still -3.9% PLUS A 1.6 inflation loss plus a new 2.3 pension contribution plus increased medical costs.
I think the local inflation rate is closer to 3% not 1.6%. I am using the New York table for Urban consumers and I also checked the wage earner index. I did not use the seasonal adjustment BUT fuel cost more last year so that might make things worse.
The price of a house is falling not housing costs. That is due to increases in expected real estate tax payments and the bottoming out of mortgage interest rates. Using total costing you are likely getting less house. Rents did go down in areas where airline people rented but that stabilized a few mmonths ago and even zone 1 rents are strating to creep up again.
(The price of a house is falling not housing costs. That is due to increases in expected real estate tax payments and the bottoming
out of mortgage interest rates. Using total costing you are likely getting less house.)
You are right about the rates and taxes. Still, I think housing prices are bound to fall to make up for it. We have a bubble, but the late 1980s shows there is a lag between the loss of income in the economy and the fall in housing prices. Landlords and home sellers will hold out for inflated prices before rising vacancies force them to smell the coffee. They'll probably even try to pass on the property tax increase to the buyers/tenants. But it can only go on for so long.
(Rents did go down in areas where airline people rented but that stabilized a few mmonths ago and even zone 1 rents are strating to creep up again.)
People want to come here and live here, but it can only go on for so long without jobs. Things may stabilize, but only if there is a fast turn around to the economy. I expect more losses, and then a slow pull out a la the mid-1990s.
People want to come here and live here, but it can only go on for so long without jobs. Things may stabilize, but only if there is a fast turn around to the economy. I expect more losses, and then a slow pull out a la the mid-1990s.
People may want to come to New York, but their numbers will diminish if the city and state keep boosting taxes. Higher rates may produce a short-term gain, but a long-term disaster.
0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.
While I write this I am hearing on the radio...
"One system carrying the holiday spirit- MTA going your way"
1993...Massacre on the rails: Colin Ferguson of Brooklyn opens fire on a Long Island Railroad train, killing six passengers.
May his victims rest in peace.
ANDEE
>>Colin Ferguson of Brooklyn opens fire on a Long Island Railroad train, killing six passengers.<<
That's right, on Pearl Harbor day no less.
The M-3 car where the shooting took place, was renumbered from #9891 to #9945. The last LIRR M-3 was #9944 at the time. The LIRR didn't want the car to return to service with the old number.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>> The LIRR didn't want the car to return to service with the old number. <<<<
I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson.
Peace,
ANDEE
That means that 9892 is 9946???? P.S. 9892 is the "Blood-Bath" car.
God, that is so sad.
How much time did that nutjob get for what he did? Life plus 100 years? His get out of jail card should be a toe tag.
200 years.
Who were the builders for the cars for the LA Metro?
(And what year?)
Brea of Pistoria Italy (outside of Florence, next to the SuperStrada to Pisa)
Don't you mean Breda?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, you are right. I dropped the "d" and got Brea.
....as in La BREA Tar Pits. One of the reasons the subway doesn't go too far out on Wilshire.
What about the cars fot the Blue & Green lines?
>>> What about the cars fot the Blue & Green lines? <<<
Blue Line:
Technology: P865 model Light rail vehicle, articulated, 6-axle,double-ended, pantograph
powered (750V DC)
Manufacturer: Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo, Japan
Fleet: 69 vehicles, 100-153 series
Built: 1989-1990 , 1994-1995
Cost: $1,170,000 each
Length: 87'
Width: 8'-8 3/4"
Height: 11'6" (top of rail to roof); 23'5" (plus max pantograph); 6'8" (Interior ceiling height)
Weight: 94,000 lbs.
Capacity: 150 seated; 230 max seated + standing + 2 wheelchairs
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; 35 mph street running
Acceleration: 0 to 55 mph in 45 seconds
Operation: Cars run in train lengths of two, increased to 3-cars during rush hours. At night they run as single units.
The cars carry such conveniences as air conditioning, a security intercom system, seating for handicapped, floors level with station platforms for ease of boarding.
Green Line:
52 P2000 light rail car:Siemens Transportation Systems, Sacramento and Carson, California
Dimensions:
The 52 Siemens cars are compatible and interchangeable with the Sumitomo cars. The bodies of the cars feature a streamlined, aerodynamic design with AC propulsion. The Green Line will share the 52 cars with the Gold Line Pasadena route, as well as the Long Beach Blue Line, and other future light rail lines. The cars cost about $2 million each and began delivery in early 1998.
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; increased to 65 mph in 1998.
operation: Runs in single-car train length configuration. Increased to two-car configuration during rush hours.
Tom
Just a slight correction...the newer series of cars in 1994-1995 were numbered 154-168.
154-168 originally ran on the Green Line until the Siemens P2000 cars started service (in 2000?) When the Green Line opened in August 1995, Blue Line cars 100,126 and 136 were assigned to supplement 154-168, after a month or so, they were returned to Blue Line service. Until the P2000s started operated, both the Blue and Green lines operated out of the Blue Line facility in Carson (Division 11), Green Line cars had to switch over to the Blue Line to get to the yard using a switch just east of the Imperial/Wilmingotn (Rosa Parks) station.
154-168 originally ran on the Green Line until the Siemens P2000 cars started service (in 2000?) When the Green Line opened in August 1995, Blue Line cars 100,126 and 136 were assigned to supplement 154-168, after a month or so, they were returned to Blue Line service. Until the P2000s started operating, both the Blue and Green lines operated out of the Blue Line facility in Carson (Division 11), Green Line cars had to switch over to the Blue Line to get to the yard using a switch just east of the Imperial/Wilmingotn (Rosa Parks) station.
>>> Who were the builders for the cars for the LA Metro? <<<
Red Line Rolling Stock:
Technology: A650 model Heavy Rail, 4-axle, configured in married pairs. Third-rail powered
(750V DC)
Manufacturer: Breda Construzione Ferroviarie, Ltd, Italy
Fleet: 30 vehicles, 501-530 series
Built: 1988-1993
Cost: $1.5 million each
Length: 75'
Width: 10'
Height: 12'6" (top of rail to roof); 6'8" (interior ceiling height)
Weight: 82,000 lbs
Capacity: 59 seated; 169 max seated + standing + 1 wheelchair
Speed: 70 max allowable; 55 max in first segment
Acceleration: 3.0 mph/sec
Operation: Currently runs in 2 or 4-car configurations, depending on peak period. Can run in up to 6-car lengths. Automatic train control ability.
The cars feature air conditioning, emergency intercom, wheelchair spaces, emergency braking and have automatic train control capability.
Not sure of the quantity, but there was an additional order of cars for the Red Line. The info above is correct for the first 30 cars which ran LA Union Station to Wilshire-Western. With the extension to North Hollywood going into service, manymore cars were required.
I saw 578 on a truck being transported south to LA (in Coalinga) a few years ago. I also photographed 602 at the yard in downtown LA earlier this year.
The second batch for the extension to Hollywood & Vine were 531-572. 531/532 were delivered at the end of 1996 I think (though I never got to see it before I departed L. A. in July 1998), the others were delivered between 1997 and early 1999 in time for the opening of the Hollywood extension in June 1999. The 3rd batch were 573-604, delivered 1999-2000 for the North Hollywood extension which opened June 2000.
Thanks for the info. I live all of 30 miles southeast of the yard in downtown LA but HATE to go to LA. Between the traffic and filth, I don't want to deal with it.
Six-car consists are standard on the North Hollywood line weekdays, AM through PM rush hours.
Yesterday my wife took a 6 to 51st. Within 2 hours she returned to the 6 at 51st and got a free trip. I suspect this has to do with the work on the E/V portion of the station, to encourage people to use the 3rd Ave escalator.
Does anyone know if this free transfer is:
- A fluke?
- Available only in rush hours?
- Available all the time?
Probably a fluke.
A couple of weeks ago I was forced to buy a $3.00 Metrocard after I returned a rental truck. I had left my card at home and needed to take one train and two busses to get back. I figured a $3.00 card would cover it, but to my surprise the second bus accepted the card as a transfer. Bonus for me. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, there are a few "three-leg" or "transfer-on-transfer" privileges out there. For example:
- Westbound Bx29, then westbound Bx12, then any connecting bus (not sure about the subway);
- Q79, then Q12/Q30/Q46/Q43/Q36, then the subway. The "third leg" must be the subway, AND the second leg can't be a Long Island Bus route (so don't walk the two blocks to the border);
- Any Staten Island bus, then the Staten Island Railway (swipe at the ferry), then any bus or subway station in lower Manhattan.
Of course, all of these work in reverse, too.
I don't believe there are any transfers from LI Bus to NYCTA Buses.
I don't believe there are any transfers from LI Bus to NYCTA Buses.
BZZT! Wrong.
Umm....... use a Metrocard. I think if you pay from L Bus with change or a token then there is no transfer btw LI Bus/NYCT buses but w/Metrocard it IS possible.
Not only is it possible but LI Bus is 3 leg as well... but if NYCT is involved it MUST be first OR last, you can take the subway to the N6 to the N40 but you can't take the N6 to the Subway to the N32.
Plus LI bus with change costs and extra quarter for the first transfer, free for the second (neither of which can be used on NYCT).
When the M10 was split into the M10 and M20, an extra free transfer was instituted between the two. Does anybody know if this is still the case?
There's also a few 3 leg transfers involving SI Express buses... I have no idea of any specifics, other than you can indeed take the X10 to the S61 to the S59.
Mine was the first one, 2 train to westbound Bx12 to Bx34.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well. This have happin alot to me.
Every time I allways 1st use the MetroCard on the QM1A($3) then I use the Transfer on the card on the M34. THen when I go back and use the M16 anouther Transfer is to be taken off and $1.50 is to be taken out. Then I use the card on the QM1A back to Queens and takes out $3.
Why is that I getting 2 Transfers and this also happin not within 2 Hours,Within 3 Hours normally. I guess on the M34 bus my card adds anouther transfer onto my card and besides you can't use a M16 Transfer on a M34 bus and vice versa
I have seen this advertised on posters that describe the lack of 6 to EV transfers in the morning
I thought the free transfer was only available at the 3rd Avenue end of the IND platform. The Lex end is closed for entry in the morning rush, and access to the IRT platforms are always available. The only reason the transfer is needed is so that passengers on the 6 can transfer to the E/V in the morning rush.
And this was at 5 PM, at Lex and 51st, not at 3rd Ave.
The transfer is probably rush hours only but then again, you don't know what tricks the MTA can pull.
The turnstiles at this styation complex have been programmeds to allow such a transfer via MetroCard ONLY. I also wisht o remidn you, this woukd be your transfer-- meaning no rtansfer to bus in Queens for free since you used it at 53rd Street and 3rd ave..
If you need the bus transfer stay on the 6 to 59th and use the R to Queens to get the E or V. The transfer cna be made at toher than AM rush houirs Monday to Friday.
Thanks. So it's a 24-hour a day transfer (subject to the issues you mention)?
Yes. Remember- only one transfer meaning no free transfer to bus siocne you suied the transfer for the subway. (BTW- the same codnition applies at COurt Square ont he G and COurthouse Square on the 7.)
Before that new JFK train(which is still being worked on)was made, I remember the original Airport Train. I'm looking at my 1980 subway map as I post this. It had a light blue bullet, with a plane, and it had the R44's with the blue stripe. I remember seeing this train until the early 1990's. I believe they completely ended this in 1991. This subway line ran from 57 St., Manhattan to Howard Beach. From Howard Beach station, people could take the JFK express bus. This subway line shared mostly with the (A) and the original (C)(when it was actually good). I believe they ended the Airport train(and the (K) line), was because of service cut backs, which made the (A) line completely take over what those 2 lines did.
Do you think it was a good idea to have the (A) line, what it is now?
BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan. It ran from 168 St./Broadway to WTC(which is gone now)
"BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan. It ran from 168 St./Broadway to WTC"
Same train was also called the AA for quite a few years. The AA ran in non-rush hours only if I'm not mistaken.
That is correct. After the 1977 service cuts, it didn't run during the late hours, either. The A began making all local stops in Manhattan during those hours, which it still does to this day.
["BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan."]
Forgot about the 42ndSt Shuttle, did ya?
I think a few extra trains per hour would do the A good. And frankly the JFK express would of been pheasable if there was a actual connection to JFK, and a few more stops.
>>Do you think it was a good idea to have the (A) line, what it is now?<<
As for your question I think the current A(and C) is good. I just think the C should be extended to the Bronx once more.
I think having the C run to the Bronx was useful. I speculate that the TA thought it made more sense to keep terminal branches in the family, meaning the B and D offer local/express service for people heading the same direction. But other lines do not behave exactly that way, so my speculation is probably wrong...
IIRC the B and C switch was intended to standardize equipment in each yard. Concourse Yard now has nothing but R-68s while 207th St. has R-32s, R-38s, and all of the R-44s (unless some are based out of Pitkin Yard).
>>>IIRC the B and C switch was intended to standardize equipment in each yard.<<<
This is correct. In other words, done for the convienience of the TA not the passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
"This is correct. In other words, done for the convienience of the TA not the passengers."
Non-sequiter. The difference in passenger comfort between these car classes, if any, is far outweighed by the increased reliability of service passengers get when the TA's yards can perform maintenance more efficiently.
So in this case, the TA's convenience also makes possible much better customer service, or equal customer service by spending a reduced budget more wisely.
True, Ron, but the TA eliminated the one seat ride option for say the passenger boarding at Fordham Road going to 34/8th during rush. Now that person has to transfer. Why not just change the equipment and keep the lines the same?
BTW, how did the move go?
Peace,
ANDEE
There have been a few others that only operated in Manhattan. The AA and the BB, also the 42 Street Shuttle and the Bowling Green Shuttle.
The S or B Grand Street Shuttle in any one of its several incarnations before the line was extended to Queens. The B 57 Street Shuttle between 57 Street and 47 Street. There was also the IRT #3 145 Street which became the Lenox Terminal Shuttle in 1968.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Actually when the JFK Express started service it used R-46's. There were a few in the 1200 series that were assigned and they operated as 3-car trains. I don't know the exacts units but it was something like 1201-1246. At the time the JFK Express fleet were the only subway cars that were free of graffiti. In it's early days I also recall 4-car trains of R-46's regularly on the E,F,GG & N would show up on the JFK Express from time to time. Apparently they didn't have the JFK Express signs and operated with "S" signs.
In the early 80's I also saw 4-cars R-38's on the JFK Express, but this seemed to be very rare.
The R-44's came to the JFK Express later in it's life.
Re: K line. The K, which was originally the old AA line operated all times except rush hours and later late night service was eliminated. At that time the C (old CC) operated during rush hours only. The current C line is actually a combination of the old rush hours only CC and old K (AA) because it provides 8th Ave local service all times except late nights when the A becomes the local.
Wayne
at one time the (K) ran from Rockaway Parkway (L) to 57th Street/6th Avenue Via Canarsie Line, Broadway El, Christie St Connection and 6th Ave Lines?
at one time the (K) ran from Rockaway Parkway (L) to 57th Street/6th Avenue Via Canarsie Line, Broadway El, Christie St Connection and 6th Ave Lines?
That's the one that I consider the "real" K train. The other K, that replaced the AA as the Washington Heights/WTC 8th Ave. local, was probably called that since it was on the rollsigns and by that time (I guess it was about 10 years later) the general public had forgotten about the original K.
Yes and that was until 1976, when it was cancelled. The blue K came about to replace the AA in 1985 since they were eliminating double letters but in turn got replaced by the C in 1988.
the ''K'' ran from Eastern Parkway[ENY] to 57th 6th ave.Some trains were stored on the old Pitkins ave El at Atlantic ave during middays and evenings.... also some were put ins at Metropolitan av[M],so early mornings, you might see one[K]on the Manhattan bound M line swinging 'round that curve!
For those of us (myself included) mature enough to remember the IRT West Side routings pre-Feb. 1959, there were two 100% Manhattan routes:
The Broadway-7th Ave. Local, today's #1 route truncated, ran between 137/Broadway and South Ferry. Believe it did not operate owl hours or Sundays.
The 7th Ave. Local, the ancestor of today's #3 route, ran at all times between 145/Lenox and South Ferry.
Well actually the JFK express started in 1978 but I think it didn't appear until the 1979 or 1980 map. The JFK express used R46's mostly [and later R44's] in 3 car sets and had the slogan "Take the train to the plane" on the sides when it had the blue stripe. Yeah, it went via 6 Av then switched at W 4 St[the last regular service train to do so] to the 8 Av line then ran via A line to Howard Beach.
The JFK's demise came in 1990 because of service cutbacks, lower than expected patronage & its fare of $3.50 or something like that.
As for the blue K, it replaced the AA in 1985-1986 when the system eliminated double letters for good and the C was only a rush hour train which was the diamond . Then in December 1988, the K got replaced by the C and it got expanded service to Brooklyn all day weekdays and all times except nights in Manhattan.
The A is good right now but it definitely needs more service and maybe the C should come back to the Rockaways or redesignate the Lefferts Blvd branch.
"maybe the C should come back to the Rockaways"
Back in the '70s, the Rockaway Park branch had pretty good ridership. With the decline in service, filthy slow equipment (100% R10s only), major delays, crime, overcrowding (on the "A"), passengers just found other alternatives to getting to the city.
There were several alternative services competing with the "C" AT THAT TIME:
QM16 Rockaway Park-Midtown Manhattan Express;
Q35 Flatbush-Rockaway (change for "2" or "5" @ Flatbush for downtown);
Q53 Rockaway-Woodside Express (change in Rego Park for the Queens Blvd lines or change at Woodside for the "7" or LIRR for Manhattan);
The "A" train (some people would just drive to the B67 St Sta);
Several private express services: Private Trails, Manhattan Commuter Express.
They (the TA) did everything they could to get people to ride the "C" Rockaway Park branch - even making it run all day into Manhattan instead of rush hour only. It just did not catch on. The "C" was a local, the few people rode it just changed for the "A" (the express) at Broad Channel and vice versa. This fact is one of the reasons that prompted the TA to eliminate the "C" from coming to Rockaway Park and replacing it with the 24/7 "S" and the limited rush hour "A".
Even with this arrangement, ridership is still light.
Why would people change at Broad Channel and not Rockaway Boulevard or Euclid, which have (and had) twice as much A service?
Exactly, it is more sensible to transfer at Euclid but maybe they wanted a sure shot at catching the A plus a better chance of getting a seat, particularly during the rush hour.
If it was a seat you wanted, during the rush hours, you had a better chance with the Lefferts Blvd. "A". The Far Rockaway's intervals were not as good as they are today, thus, a lot of Far Rockaways were standing room only by B. 67th St.
Because the TA always had a habit of putting anything out of Rockaway Park right smack in front of the Far Rockaway "A". Back in those days, any Rockaway resident who normally used the subway knew this was the practice. Also to make sure, the passengers on the "C" can see the "A" waiting just before the tracks merge. In the few cases when they didn't see the "A", then they would go to Rockaway Blvd. to transfer for whatever "A" arrives.
Perhaps some C trains during rush hours should go to Far Rockaway to supplement the A Far Rock service. Since NYCT made the current arrangement of running Far Rock trains 24/7 as opposed to having a dumb 'Round Robin" H shuttle (you would HAVE to go to Rock. Park FIRST then loop back to Far Rockaway, or if you started at Rock. Park first, you would have to travel to Far Rock, and then double back just to get to Broad Channel. You can avoid this by changing trains at Beach 90th St or Beach 67th st, but most of the time you will miss your connection.) Ridership at night has increased but it took NYCT almost 40 years to think of something nice like that.
The current truncated midday B is Manhattan-only.
The AA and BB were also 100% Manhattan.....
Boy, how quickly we've all forgotten about the 3 from 9/19/01 through 9/14/02.
[This subway line ran from 57 St., Manhattan to Howard Beach. From Howard Beach station, people could take the JFK express bus.]
Some notes:
- In radio communications, the JFK Express was called "the "Bird."
- Because of the premium fare, the "Bird" had priority over ALL else, which tended to cause major problems on the A, C, E, F, and Q.
- In its last days, the northern terminal was 21st Street-Queensbridge. From there, the "QT" bus (operated by a subsidiary of Triboro Coach) connected to LaGuardia. (BTW, the Howard Beach connector bus ran out of East New York depot.)
- Most riders were Howard Beach commuters. At the "Kill-the-Bird" public hearing, some speakers actually complained (on the record!!) that, without the JFK Express, they'd have to travel on the "African Queen." Naturally, Transit used those comments to further justify discontinuation.
Those yahoos in Howard Beach spent an extra $5 or $6 EACH WAY, EVERY DAY, just to avoid sharing a train with "undesirables"?
Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott and (especially) John Rocker would be SO proud of them!
--Randy Brown
Baltimore MD
Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott and (especially) John Rocker would be SO proud of them!
I know Rocker is a racist and Thurmond is a reformed segregationist, but what on earth would make you beieve that Trent Lott would sympathize with the racist whining of Howard Beach residents? Is it because he's a conservative, therefore anti-minority? If you believe that, then you're the bigot.
Chris, apparently you haven't heard about Lott's comments at Thurmond's 100th birthday celebration. Lott publicly praised Thurmond's 1948 Presidential campaign, in which Thurmond ran on an anti-civil rights platform. Thurmond won a number of Southern states. Lott said that he voted for Thurmond, and that if the rest of the country had followed the South's lead, there wouldn't have been "other problems" later on. Such as the civil rights and voting rights movements.
Lott's association with groups such as the Council of Conservative Citizens is also well-documented. The CCC is a direct descendant of the White Citizens' Councils, which vainly opposed civil rights initiatives.
Still don't believe me? Just look at this weekend's online news services, or go to www.groups.google.com and do a search for "Trent Lott Thurmond". (Remember to select "sort by date".) It's all over the place.
Lott is every bit as much a bigot as those Howard Beach yahoos. And another thing: If Lott is such a great senator, why does Mississippi consistently rank either 49th or 50th in such areas as income and education? And always at or near the top in poverty? What REALLY has Lott done for those people?
--Randy B.
You're insane. Lott has done nothing to demonstrate any bigoty to any race. I'm no great fan of his, but your attacks on him are patently unfair.
Insane? I repeat: Lott's comments last Thursday were broadcast LIVE over C-SPAN, and have been WIDELY COVERED all over the media. Here is the exact quote:
"I want to say this about my state [Mississippi]: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. [Round of applause.] And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either."
Thurmond ran for president only once, in 1948. He ran on a platform that specified opposition to integration, opposition to a repeal of the "poll tax" (used in the South to discourage blacks from voting), and especially opposition to the criminalization of lynchings. Specimen ballot brochures from Thurmond's campaign have been reprinted over the last several days, and let me tell you, they're nasty.
Therefore, when Lott says that the people of his state are "proud" of voting for Thurmond, it's a ringing endorsement of that platform. Lott and his apologists now say that the remarks were intended in jest - but having heard the speech for myself, he sure as hell didn't sound like he was joking. Even William Kristol, editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, said "Oh, my God!" when he heard Lott's remarks. There are some things you just DO NOT joke about! As a politician, Lott should have known better.
And once again, Lott's cozy relationship with the Council of Conservative Citizens is a matter of public record. In fact, he contributed articles to the CCC's magazine that closely mirror Thursday's remarks. I suggest again doing a search for this stuff: you'll find it immediately.
Yes, I'm attacking Lott. So are millions of other, sensible Americans of all ideologies. He supplied the ammunition that we are attacking him with. He has signed a check with his mouth that his rear end may not be able to cash. The sorry son of a syphillitic streetwalker deserves every insult that's coming to him. Turnabout is fair play, Jack.
Back to the subways!
--RB
There's no question that Lott screwed up royally with those remarks, and you are absolutely correct about the written record.
On the other hand, Strom Thurmond is 100 years old and is afflicted with many of the limitations of a 100 year old man. His chief of staff is now the "de-facto" senator, while he remains the "de-jure" senator, and it is my belief that he really should have been retired, because he is really not functional as a Senator. But his long-term memory is intact, and so I am sure he liked Lott's comments (I did not).
Perhaps if Trent Lott had made those comments in private, over dinner in a hotel suite,with only Thurmond and family present, it would have been in the way of an affectionate remark made to an old man that has won Lott's respect. And of course, it probably would not have reached the press (except for maybe a book published thirty years from now which we would be browsing at Doubleday).
But, Lott made those comments in a public forum, in front of the media, and he deserves whatever drubbing is dished out to him.
Lott is merely a mirror on the entire PHILOSOPHY of his party. The RICH rule, and everyone else can clean up after them, so long as they face the dais at all times. Prior to Lott's party, we were *ALL* Americans. Now some of us are MORE "american" than others, and everyone else can go to hell. I *know* because I have to pay bills, that I'm no longer an "American" since I don't own servants, and silly me, I pay 74% of my wages in taxes. Leona Helmsley WAS right.
But SOME day, it'll all catch up to them. Dang. I promised I'd quit the politics when election day came and went and yet, the POLITICS is rolling over us like a runaway bus with these loose canon "glad to be a republican" types ... latest word now is Congress is going to eliminate MORTGAGE DEDUCTIONS, add more child credits ("reproduce WHITE children or we'll dock you"), eliminate Capitol Gains, rents, royalties and "death tax" and stick everyone else with MORE property taxes (higher rents), more SCHOOL taxes, more local SALES taxes and more SIN taxes ... woohoo! I'm GLAD to be a republican. That 74% of my wages in taxes will be 275% in NO time (Enron math, it's good, I can charge it to my Visa) ...
So LET Trent Lott play the race card, we would have been better off with HOOVER. But the people have spoken, and I'll do my BEST to raise enough money to pay my taxes so I can be proud to be a republican. I'm just PROUD that the retirees are going to get it up the cornhole first. (pensions and social security 100% taxable at fed and state level) ... can't wait. :)
One of my regrets about leaving Mississippi is that I can't vote against Trent Lott anymore. I guess that's the price I pay for moving someplace with good rail transit.
Mark
Heh. And don't forget that SHOTGUN wedding you missed out on too. Well, with the bored-agains now in COMPLETE control of our government (who woulda thunk we'd blow up the Taliban only to hand them the reigns to our GOVERNMENT to control as they wished), we can STILL hope that Lott will be turned into a pillar of salt. :)
Wanna know what's beautiful? Rush Limbaugh HIMSELF blasted Lott for his boneheaded comment! That, my friends, is amazing.
Trent Lott will be one of the most powerful men in the country when the next Congress convenes. He needs to heed these words from "Spider-Man" creator Stan Lee:
WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.
Back to the subways (I hope)!
--RB
>>> The sorry son of a syphillitic streetwalker deserves every insult that's coming to him. <<<
I hadn't realized he had risen to his present position from such a humble beginning. :-)
Tom
Lott said that he voted for Thurmond
Thurmond needed the children's vote.
[...Thurmond is a reformed segregationist....]
The old-school, "hatred-for-fun-and-profit" segregationists don't reform; they either shut up or pay lip service to diversity in the interest of political correctness.
"At the "Kill-the-Bird" public hearing, some speakers actually complained (on the record!!) that, without the JFK Express, they'd have to travel on the "African Queen." "
Sordid and disgusting indeed, but unfortunately there's no cure for the die-hard racist. It was however, at best a distraction for the real issue that few airport bound commuters were using the train. Today, I imagine the connection between the 6th and Fulton Street services is still useful as an emergency re-router and for non-revenue moves, but due to the disruption it would cause other lines, MTA has said officially that the JFK Express as it ran until 1990 will not be coming back.
I hope it never comes back. I can truly attest to the fact that it was the JFK Express that held up the "A" and "C".
It was normal practice, for example for a NB "A" train to be held just south of Howard Beach, WAIT for the SB "JFK" to arrive at Howard Beach's southbound platform, bypass it, crossover all 4 tracks, reverse ends, pull into northbound platform, unload, then load passengers, then depart.
After all of this, some 10 to 15 minutes later, the "A" was then allowed to proceed.
This was just one of the many idiotic things the TA did it came to "A" vs "JFK".
Great example. Fortunately, the TA finally recognized that this arrangement was not working.
The original "Train to the plane" ran from 1978 to 4/15/90. It used 3 car R46 trains until t's final days when it used 4 car R44 trains. It was eliminated because it was hardly ever used.
Even with priority over the "regular" trains, it would get backed up on Fulton Street behind A expresses during rush hours. At least you'd have a seat for the premium fare, but not many would pay it. Now that we have midday and weekend A express service since the early 90s, I believe, the JFK Express would have almost no time advantage.
If the fare had been lower than what they were charging, then maybe it would have had more use and MIGHT still be in existence but you're right, rush hour A's interfered with it and that also had a negative impact. Now, a JFK express would not work on the Fulton line but if it were a separate line and created instead of the AirTrain, that would be better.
[>>"Now that we have midday and weekend A express service since the early 90s, I believe, the JFK Express would have almost no time advantage."<<]
Midday A express service started in December 1988
Weekend A express service started in May 1999
If only the Airtrain was built to subway specifications....just thinking that that would be a much better way to spend a billion...besides, it wouldn't involve a switch to get into manhattan
-Jeff
Also the 3 used to be 100% manhatten. harlem to 14st.
For all of the new "old" pics you put up yesterday. I'm gonna be busy for a while going through all of them.
Not to nitpick, but you've mislabeled this picture as being at Norwood Ave. on the J line, when it appears to be Prospect Park on the Brighton line.
Your right. I have my name changed to Harry P. Thre is a picture taken at 168th Street listed as being demolished, even though it was the double "A". Daves been very busy. Thanks Dave, I liked the R46s
Let me know which one that is... I obviously marked it as 168th on the Jamaica line.
The captions come from Joe T. Sometimes there are errors. If you find more let me know the image name and what's wrong with it...
Where are the pics?
Check out the newest images page. They're also integrated with the older pics in the illustrated car roster page.
Thanks.
RidewoodBus Buff started an interesting thread about train that only run in one borough (or is it burrow?).
Trains that only ran in one borough like those that never go to Manhattan had and have a special flavor to them. I lived in The Bronx and we had some interesting lines. In fact we still have one.
The Third Avenue El ran entirely in The Bronx after 1955 between Gun Hill Road and 149 Street.
The #9 (now the #5) Dyre Avenue Local between Dyre Avenue and East 180 Street.
In the days of long ago there was the Shuttle train of Composites between East 241 Street and Fordham Road.
How about any others in the outlying burrows?
Larry, Redbird R33
Queens only, prior to 1949:
BMT Flushing and Astoria shuttles to/from Queensboro Plaza.
Brooklyn only:
BMT Franklin Ave. - Coney Island service on summer weekends only.
BMT Culver Shuttle 1959 - 1975 (ran old SIRT cars for a while).
IND HH Court Street shuttle.
Staten Island:
Sort of a stretch, but the SIRT has always been unique, even today as part of the subway system.
How about the Staten Island railway?
Hmmm...But I thought the SIR was not a subway, hence the name, Staten Island Railway...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
The SIR Is a FRA Registered/Inspected Railway but use Modified R44 B Division Cars and Have Cars Sent By flatbed Truck From the Clifton Shops Over VZ Narrrows bridge to Cony Island Shops for major repair.
Exactly.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The K use to run from the World Trade center to 168 street, During GO's the 7 runs from Main Street to Queensboro plaza, theres the Franklin Avenue shuttle and the 42 Street shuttle, the B use to run from 36 Street to Coney Island, the W use to run from Pacific street to Coney Island. That's all I can think of. And the Staten Island Railway.
Don't forget the Rockaway shuttle (formerly the H).
No. Euclid Avenue is in Brooklyn, so at times, it was 2 boroughs.
No, during late weekday evenings and all day Saturday and Sunday (6am - 11:30pm), the "H" (used to be the "CC") ran between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel - both in Queens.
But at the other times, it was not.
I know this. That is why I SPELLED out the times when it operated in ONE borough only.
well now it (S) only operates in one borough anyway
That's right. Thank you very much.
If you're gonna count nighttime shuttles, then you can include the West End (until this September), Sea Beach (1976-1987), Bay Ridge shuttle, Lennox shuttle (1968-1991), 57th/6th St. shuttle (1968 to 2001 in various forms).
There was also the Pelham Bay Shuttle - Pelham Bay Park to 125th St.
Oops! My mistake, 125th St is in Manhattan not the Bronx. My apologies.
I thought of another: The IRT had a shuttle from Bowling Green to South Ferry in the 1960's and a shuttle (IND) Hoyt to Court ,(Now a museum).
If you can count the Third Ave. El after 1955, then I guess you can count the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. Els before they were extended into the Bronx.
And if we go way back to the 1800's, before some of these line were extended to Manhattan
The Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island RR
The Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach RR
The Prospect Park and Coney Island RR
The Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island RR
The NY and Sea Beach RR
(I know I'm stretching the point :-)
Don't forget the Lexington Ave el in brooklyn!
Technically, it ran to Park Row some of the time.
Between 1944 & 1950 it only ran to Bridge-Jay St.
Didn't it also run from 111th St or Lefferts Blvd. after 1944? That would also mean it was a 2 boro line.
The Lexington Ave Line's eastern terminal was Eastern Parkway.
It only ran to 111th St during rushhours on weekdays.
Then technically, it's a 2 boro line, even for just a few hours a day.
The old AA route
The old BB route
BMT routes #8 & #9, but they shouldn't count as subway lines.
Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently:
3: 148-LT to 135 (early Sunday morning only)
5: Dyre to E180 (late nights)
B: 145 to 34 (weekday middays)
N: Pacific to 86 (weekends and late nights)
R: Pacific to 95 (late nights)
S: Times Square to Grand Central (all times except nights)
S: W4 to Grand (all times)
S: Broad Channel to Rock Park (all times)
In recent years we've had the following:
3: 148-LT to 14 (all times)
B: 36 to Stillwell (late nights)
C: 145 to WTC (also 168 to WTC for a time, I think) (weekends)
R: 36 to 95 (late nights)
S: Essex to Broad or Chambers, during Williamsburg Bridge closure
W: Pacific or 36 to Stillwell (late nights and weekends)
---
3: 148-LT to 14 (all times)
---
All times except rush hours (and the last 4 trains of the night)
The other trains went to the Bronx. E 180 St(nights, early AM) or E 238 St-White Plains Road (PM rush hours)
Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently:
3: 148-LT to 135 (early Sunday morning only)
5: Dyre to E180 (late nights)
B: 145 to 34 (weekday middays)
N: Pacific to 86 (weekends and late nights)
R: Pacific to 95 (late nights)
S: Times Square to Grand Central (all times except nights)
S: W4 to Grand (all times)
S: Broad Channel to Rock Park (all times)
Don't forget the Myrtle to Metropolitan "M" shuttle, late nights and weekends.
I almost included it, but I corrected myself in time. To my knowledge, Brooklyn and Queens have not yet merged.
Duh on me. You are correct.
>>> Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently: <<<
Which one of those on the list is nicknamed the "Franklin Shuttle"? :-)
Tom
Hi:
I'm off to NYC tomorrow morning and I'm wondering if there are any stores where I might add to my NYC Subway map collection?
Thanks in advance,
Ken Jones
Try Barnes & Noble bookstores, local newstands, or the NYC Transit store at Grand Central.
If you want to get a subway map and get it for FREE, ask at any token booth.
What if he wants to buy old maps? Not current ones. I don't think he'd be asking where to "BUY" the current map.
www.ebay.com
You're right. I thought at first he was asking where could he buy a current subway map.
There are places where he could buy a subway map. But the booths give them away for free upon request. Older maps however are scarce.
I am of course looking for older maps. I know in London there are a couple of stores that specialize in transit memorabilia, just wondering if the same exists in New York.
Ken
The Transit Museum Store at Gtand Central also has for free the bus maps for all five boroughs and the downtown Manahattan Map
Or you can call MTA customer service at 718 - 330 -1234 to obtain maps and train schedule. The maps plus shipping and handling is free.
They also tend to have some out of date maps there as well. I don't think the downtown map is available anymore, it wasn't there last week.
I rember a few threads back a mention of a curio shop in chinatown (Manhattan) that had a few older subway and bus maps for sale, but i don't rember the name or address of the shop.
Oh yeah, I mentioned about that back in September. I was the one who found the old subway and bus maps in an old antique shop in chinatown. That shop is located in btw Grand Street and Elizabeth Street just located next to the chinese supermarket across from chinese bakery shop named "Fay Da." Its there, u won't missed it.
If this is the place I think it is, be careful in there. I've heard of a place in the neighborhood that SELLS the type of maps that the booths give away for FREE. And the maps they have only date back a few months.
The place that I mention sells map dated back in early to mid 80s and early 90s
How much do they sell them for? And have you ever bought a old map from the 80's?
Where was that place again?
The person said it was in lower Manhattan around Grand St.
What ever happen to the "Broadway Limited", an antique store that sold railroad related artifacts. They had a store on the upper west side during the early 70's, then they were in a building on 33 and 9th ave (the same building that is the office of the "Offical Railroad Equipment Register") by 1978.
I think they moved. I went there once years ago and there was word that the store was moving. Hopefully they relocated elsewhere. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went out of business.
All indications are is that they went out of business. The Yellow pages have no listings under Broadway Limited niether do the White Pages.
Had an interesting ride on the F train last night.
About 9:30pm, I was on my way to Manhattan from Park Slope when a group of subway afficianados boarded at either Carroll or Bergen Street (by the time my interest in these dudes was peaked, I'd forgotten where they got on, but I know it was a station with green tilework), sat right behind my wife and me, and talked subway all the way all the way till I got off at 14th Street and 6th Avenue. I was in the last car of an R46 consist in car # 5910.
It seemed like one or two of these fellahs were MTA insiders to some degree, but I'm not sure. During various parts of the trip, they made sarcastic references to the 'V' as their "favorite train," talked about Bergen lower level ("Do they still run trains down there?") and the history of the C train. One guy was pointing out various locations of current track/switch work as we made our way from Brooklyn to Manhattan. As we halted in the tunnel just outside 2nd Avenue, one of the guys talked about how trains can't enter the station if the signal at the other end of the station is still red. I don't know if he meant just at 2nd Ave, or if he meant system-wide.
He continued, "This is the kind of thing that makes the Straphangers write in...'why is it so slow?' They tell them they're at capacity, and it's all about safety. It's not about safety, and they're nowhere near 'capacity.' They could run twice as many trains if they wanted to. They just want to take everything away from the motormen."
This is what made me think some of these guys may have been insiders, or perhaps UTW.
Anyway, my wife saw me smirking, so I leaned in close. "I think I may know these guys. I think I've seen them on railfan tours before." Not being entirely certain, I kept to myself, but it sure was fun listening to them!
Was that group any of you? Did I miss a railfan tour? (One of the gentlemen was wearing a jacket with a Starfleet insignia, if that helps).
Keystone Transit Page
Today in the mail, out of the blue, my wife, through no effort whatsoever on her part, received a Brooklyn Eagle newspaper, Vol. 3, #35, Dec. 6 - Dec 12, 2002. The front page read, "Founded in 1814 by Isaac Van Anden." Inside, a mini-masthead read, "The Brooklyn Eagle is published every week on Friday...for $25 per year by Daily Eagle, Inc."
Here's their website: Brooklyneagle.net
I've lived in Brooklyn for a year, and I had no idea this newspaper existed nowadays. I knew there was a Brooklyn Daily Eagle that went out of business in the middle of the last century. I guess somebody bought the name and started this modern-day weekly. Judging from the fact that it's Volume 3, I'm guessing it's been around for 3 years or so. It seems to be like the Queens Tribune, which I saw when I lived there, but rarely read. Folded inside today's surprise was a Brooklyn Free Press, also which I had never heard of. Maybe the Free Press just copped the Daily Eagle name to cash in on some sentimental value.
Or maybe this is a trend. Someone revived the NY Sun last year and is attempting to market it as a conservative counterpoint to the NY Times (I thought the Wall Street Journal served that purpose, but what do I know...)
Now, if we could just bring back the Dodgers!
>>Now, if we could just bring back the Dodgers!<<
Now, if we could bring back the streetcars !
Bill "Newkirk"
Now, if we could bring back the streetcars !
Or the City of Brooklyn!
Amen, Brother!
>>>"Now, if we could bring back the streetcars!"<<<
I CONCUR 1000 times. Bill, you my man.
;-) Sparky
Hey, Keystone Pete! Here's some info that might interest you:
The 'new' Brooklyn Daily Eagle is published by 'The Brooklyn Paper' which is a Downtown Brooklyn/Brooklyn Heights publication. The original Eagle was a true borough-wide paper that could be bought at newsstands throughout Brooklyn. This revised version is a lame attempt to capture some of the flavor of the original. It's the Eagle in name only, as most articles revolve around stories relating to Brownstone Brooklyn activities almost exclusively (as if Canarsie don't exist! ;).
I assume you live in a neighborhood near Downtown Brooklyn? That could explain your receiving a copy.
Doug
Is the Phoenix still around? Or perhaps this is just the Phoenix renamed?
My former Boss used to be the editor/publisher of The Phoenix. He and his wife should it off a few years ago if I recall correctly. But, I hear it is still around (hard to find, though).
It's the Eagle in name only, as most articles revolve around stories relating to Brownstone Brooklyn activities almost exclusively...
I guess they couldn't very well call the print version the "Daily" Eagle, could they, it being now a weekly. I guess the website gets a way with it because they keep the headlines up-to-date.
We live in Park Slope, which, I guess, is part of "brownstone Brooklyn." Maybe they're expanding their outreach southward. Not a good sign that the "About Us" link was bogus. Seemed to be focused a lot on real estate and commerce, much like a weekly "shopper," which we used to get back home in Pennsylvania.
I wonder if the old Daily Eagle could have survived had Brooklyn not become "occupied" by New York City in 1896, much like the Newark Star-Ledger survives today, despite Newark's being in the gravitational pull of the New York Metropolitan market. (I'm assuming there was once a newspaper called the Newark Star, and another one called the Newark Ledger.) Of course, the S-L takes advantage of the claim that it is more responsive to New Jersey issues than is the Times, the News or the Post. Would Brooklyn, New York have been able to retain enough of its own identity...
Things that make ya go, "Hmmmm."
Yes, I would assume the Brooklyn Eagle would have remained had Kings County not voted to become absorbed into part of "The City of Greater New York" (hey, trivia buffs: that is the REAL name of what we call New York City).
Now that Brooklyn is merely a part of a larger metropolis, a paper focusing solely on it's inner-workings would be doomed to failure without it being inclusive of Manhattan (Da City) and the other boroughs. And of course that's what the remaining giant dailys do best.
"The City of Greater New York" (hey, trivia buffs: that is the REAL name of what we call New York City).
Not really. Greater New York was used to distinguish the new larger city from the old just-Manhattan city, but the official name remains "The City of New York." Since very few people remember the old lesser New York, the term means nothing anymore.
Unless a proposal comes about to disband this unholy union. :-)
[Unless a proposal comes about to disband this unholy union. :-)]
I'm all for that! Where do I sign?
There is a Daily Eagle. It has a lot of AP stories and some old articles from the original Daily Eagle.
They aren't published by Brooklyn Papers. They are published by the current owners of the Phoenix and a couple of other weekly titles including the weekly Eagle. They have a free weekly now called the Free Press, which, in the past, has been identical to the the weekly Eagle and is included in the Friday Daily Eagle.
Their transit coverage is pretty good, as good as Courier-Life (Bay News, Brooklyn Heights Courier, Park Slope Courier, etc.) and better than the Brooklyn Papers (Brooklyn Heights Paper, Park Slope Paper, Bay Ridge Paper, etc) They have had decent artlcles on Bob Diamond's Red Hook Trolley project.
BMTman may be confusing the current Eagle with Brooklyn Papers attempt to rename their papers The Brooklyn Eagle in the 1990s. Apparently, the owners of the current Eagle had bought the right of the name from the owners of the orginal Eagle name. There was a lawsuit. I'm not much on intellectual property, but the I think the contention that the name was abandoned and the trademark should be lost. I don't remember if the case was decided by a judge or settled.
Marc. Wow...you seem to know quite abit about this...but The Pheonix OWNS the new Brooklyn Daily Eagle? Interesting...this might be a fairly recent development? I'll have to look more into this.
You are quite right about their transit coverage though. Any time there is a Regional Plan Association report released, the Eagle most often gives it front cover status. Regular dailies would have it buried several pages in. Also, Bob Diamond's trolley ops get good notices, usually -- again -- making it to the cover with a photo spread continued inside.
What I find is that the Friday (weekend edition) of the Eagle will have a separate pullout of reprinted articles from the old Brooklyn Daily Eagle archives. I most often keep them if they're rapid transit related :) (for MY archives). IIRC, the Friday edition also has a full-color cover...haven't run into one lately, so Marc might have to answer that one.
With so much press and "counter-press" Unca Selkirk is confused ... *Is* Bob Diamond the "anti-christ" or is he "genius of Greenpoint?" There's been SO much crap both sides of reality, that I've lost my scorecard ... do I continue mentioning his "good works," or do I agree with the Joe Bruno usint that "he's a COMMIE!" :)
Inquiring homeballs knead to no!
Hey, Unca Kev! Welcome back! We're ya been?
Don't tell me you've sold out to the JB side!! Say it ain't so!
I haven't heard much from the Bob D. corner....just that plans were still afoot to get his phase I completed so he could run in the street with a loop (few blocks into Red Hook). Not sure what's going on there lately.
Good to see ya again. Don't be a stranger...:)
Didn't want to darken the doorstep of subtalk by being the "most prolific poster" for a second month, so been laying low. Besides, you know me - I'm FAR more interested in the lives and stories of those who WORK for RTO than those who would dictate how RTO operates. Not much for motorpeople and conductors to share of "war stories" lately, given the reception of the "public" here for the trials and tribulations of "beat the clock" when everyone's a TMO. :)
Hope you and Unca Lou got your BVE's and such ... once you RUN a train, you get all that less interested in where the Seabits is running today, and if you can wrap the controller AND a train around a bridge abutment in BVE, suddenly where the V train stops today doesn't matter as much. Heh.
Yeah, I was wondering about Unca Bob ... demonized by some, held up on a pedestal (so you can look up his grids easier) and was wondering after discussions of his "this is a turnout?" and other madness just how the whole project was going. I *know* if he can get it together, our Unca Sparky would NEVER have time to leave Brooklyn (can't you just SEE him in monkeysuit behind the steering wheel-less bus you couldn't pry him out with a crowbar with?) if Unca Bob's Dizzyworld is really gonna come to pass ...
You know where I'm coming from - trolleys in Brooklyn? HELL ... *I* would move to Crooklyn if there were scheduled trolleys!
Got the disk Sunday (well Sat the postman left it on the floor in front of my door, neighbor picked it up).
Thank you for sending it, I'll try to install it today on the notebook if work isn't to busy. Home has to wait for Wed, union meeting Tue about our layoffs at the Board.
>>>""genius of Greenpoint?"<<< What ever he is, was or will be,
GOOD, BAD or WHATEVER ~ POSITIVE, NEGATIVE or INDIFFERENT, how
is he associated with "Greenpoint"??? If he is, I'll have to
denounce my association with the 'Garden Spot of the World' ~
"Krakow on the East River". A Pete McGuiness he's not.
;-) Sparky
A Pete McGuiness he's not.
WOOHOO!
Another street name origin to add to the pile.
And I thought that the new name of Oakland Street had something to do with beer. :-)
>>>"Another street name origin to add to the pile.
And I thought that the new name of Oakland Street"<<<
Now there's a street name from the past. Gotta be a seasoned
citizen of the "Garden Spot of the World" to recall Oakland Street.
;-) Sparky
Kev, you're thinking of Red Hook. Wrong color/sharp object combination.
Greenpoint, Red Hook, it ain't Tuckahoe. :)
Greenpoint, Red Hook, it ain't Tuckahoe. :)
Now that 42nd Street has been cleaned up, you need to go to Hunts Point for that one. :-)
Heh. Figured you'd pick up on that. :)
Kevin,
You get on us "Garden Spoters" you in for a whirl wind session,
I know you from Da Bronex, you don't know any better. We Greenpointers
are very proud of the "Hood", which has withstood the test of time
as "Small Town America", not a section of the Megalopolis Big Apple.
A Life Long Greenpointer and Proud of it.
;-) Sparky
Heh. Sorry for the braincramp, bro ... I meant "Red Hook" but then again, I hit subtalk when I'm trying to wake up (like now) and when I'm too stupid to code or write email (at the end of the shift) ... got real work to do otherwise. But yeah, I was *WRONG* and didn't mean to insult your little neck of the woods there. :)
JUSTIFICATION ACCEPTED, but the next, we'll have to use the
butt plug on yaw or take away the handles. Red is Red and
Green is Green, and they don't mix in Brooklyn. :-)
;-) Sparky
Ah but they *DO* mix on the IRT. And just so's ya know - you can't take away the handles, I already have my own. At least I don't put trains or streetcars on the ground. Don't make me start now. :)
I'll abstain further rhetoric about it. And for the other situation,
didn't occur on my watch, Thank the Lord. Let's keep it off the board, PLEEZE.
;-) Sparky
I was talking in glistening generalities without specifics, and intend to keep it that way. But a trainman's worst nightmare (and greatest threat) is to park the locomotive sideways. :)
Kevin,
How about between the rails, without facing sideways.
;-) Sparky
Going on the ground BETWEEN the rails instead of straddling them or parking sideways is a "get out of jail free" card to every motorperson of locomotive engineer. If she goes on the ground BETWEN the rails, someone needs to call up the track department instead of asking ME to write it up. :)
Be happy to empty the air tank for the sidewinder though. Heh.
Kevin,
Most of the single truckers will posture themselves between the
rails in lieu of sideways. Besides, it would be difficult to
drain this unit, it's an ARMSTRONG. Will forward you the comments
from the Track Guru off the board.
;-) Sparky
Was about to sleep, so excuse the wait - ANOTHER 30 hour day desperately trying to keep up with many angles in hopes of selling software to NO AVAIL ... the economy CONTINUES to chew ...
Can't argue streetcars with ya, I have no practical experience, only RESPECT for them. But normally a RAILROAD car will NEVER lay down BETWEEN rails unless the RAILS let go. Dunno WHAT the rules are for single truck streetcars, THAT I have no experience in, but pray for some time with you alone (I remember the various places where you stepped in that day and had ALL the PROPER answers, that wasn't unnoticed) so I can learn how that can happen.
Anyhoo, 1689 is *my* drug ... and she would INSIST on doing it sideways, hurricane style. Heh. I *KNOW* my Arnines, and the one thing I GENUINELY got my yayas over that terrible, awful, clammy, rainy, CRAPPY day is that 1689 DEMONSTRATED the truth of my TWU situation to me and I now know FOR SURE that what happened to me was NOT my fault. The SOUL rests *SO* much easier already knowing that I really *WAS* setup. Secondly, I also came to learn a few things about them that I didn't get to deal with when I worked for the TA, and I have an even STRONGER love for the mighty Arnines since I actually managed to do something "out of title" in my OWN days with the TA ... I REPAIRED her, did some RCI tricks I learned, and loosened her up for a better day in the future.
Words CANNOT describe my gratitude, that trip to Branford REALLY fixed a lot of my own SOUL ... THANK YOU for being part of it! :)
You know, Kev, the other day I was playing that subway CD you sent me and noticed that brake plug among the graphics on the sleeve.:)
Hiya kids, hiya hiya ... ah ah ah ... I *loved* the photo in the Branford tripper too. I tell ya, that little appliance has become a legend in our own time. Back in MY time, we often envisioned using it for management satisfaction as surely as that yeller piece of wood for "customer satisfaction." 'nuff said. :)
But yeah, you DIDN'T leave home without one prior to that silly SMEE stuff. (grin)
So in other words, you'll leave 6688 for Nancy, right?:)
I preferred the AMUE cars myself. Put me in a redbird, and it's nose splints for everyone. :)
Too bad the R-1/9s didn't have a PA system. OK, 484 doesn't count.
Yeah, like there wasn't enough to do outside the car to begin with. I can just picture grabbing a microphone off the bulkhead, shaking the water out of it, pressing the button and falling off the car. Nah, be GRATEFUL there wasn't a PA on the Arnines. It was a kinda different experience from leaning against a wall, using your lips to support your body while you press a pair of buttons and speak. With Señor Microphono in hand, you'd lose your three points of contact. :)
>>>"You know, Kev, the other day I was playing that subway CD"<<<
Just because I prefer "Streetcars" over "Rapid Transit", I dun get
a copy of this "Subway" CD. >G< :-(
~ Sparky
It's a compilation of different subway sounds. The first 26 minutes consist of Heypaul's recording of an R-9 ride on the Canarsie from Rockaway Parkway to DeKalb Ave. The rest is all sound bits: R-9 compressors, R-10 door sounds, a composite featuring squealing SMEE brakes followed by a Looney Tunes crashing sound and Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff, and finally a conductor's announcement on an R-27.
Oh, if I get a copy, I can listen while reading the looney posts
on this board. >WOW< Sounds with the aberrations. >GOLLY<
:-) Sparky
I think a better description may be that the company that started the Daily Eagle now owns the Phoenix. I find it rather confusing. I try to follow this because we get all the locals at my office.
The weekly Eagle, the Daily Eagle, and the now-relaunched Free Press (formerly the Brooklyn Journal of Arts and Urban Affairs), a supplement to the Friday Daily Eagle, are broadsheets. The Phoenix, which aside from the wrap around first two and last two pages, is called the Brookyn Heights Press & Cobble Hill Press, is a tabloid. There is overlap between the content of all versions.
It just doesn't make a lot of marketing sense. I understand Courier-Life, Brooklyn Papers, and the smaller Home Reporter (Brooklyn Spectator) chains. Their editions are neighborhood specfic. Even where articles are in multiple editions, local news gets played up over other neighborboods. But the Eagle publications seem to compete with one another in brownstone Brooklyn. I think they just get lost in the clutter..
Marc, I agree. There are so many Downtown/Heights papers that it is really 'overkill'. Sure, the clientelle is 'upscale' and have some $$$ to throw away, but how much coverage can you give to a small area among a half-dozen different papers? They're all chasing essentially the same dollars and I would expect one or two to fold at some point (unless the advertising continues at the same pace for all papers).
Courier-Life started the concept (at least in Brooklyn/NYC) of 'recycling' various articles among different neighborhood papers. Sometimes it would be to unintentionall hilarious effect: Flatbush Life which covers this now heavily Caribbean community would have coverage of stories taking place in Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge or Sheepshead Bay once you got past the first five pages of the paper :). Same thing for Bay News: stories in taking place in Flatbush or Midwood would make their way into a paper geared toward Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge.
One interesting Brooklyn local is 'Skyline'. When I lived in Canarsie I would get that one in the mail. It covered neighborhoods situated along the southern shore of Brooklyn....included would be stories relating to Bergen Beach, Brighton Beach, Canarsie, Marine Park, Mill Basin, Sheepshead Bay, and Spring Creek.
Doug, that's exactly right.
The "real" Brooklyn Eagle died in 1957. It was an anti-McCarthy paper and some people liked to say that it's relative socialism make it a "Communist" paper. It was more than a borough-wide paper in the sense that it was a full-fledged newspaper with a Washington bureau and and a foreign bureau, just like the New York Times or Newsday.
About a year or so after the Eagle closed attempts to bring back the name began with a number of papers, mostly weekly, but none caught on.
It is aggressive, at the least, for the new "Eagle" paper to claim "founding" in the 18th century.
I know some people would say the same about the New York Post, founded (IIRC) in 1800 by Alexander Hamilton, but the paper is continuously published, so I suppose that's fair, but I don't see that the "Eagle" has the right.
I agree, this new Brooklyn Eagle is in no way shape or form related to the original...
And Paul, many thanks for the extra details ala Eagle having a Washington Bureau & Foriegn Press Offices.
Now if they would only resurrect the Daily Mirror ;-)
When the Mirror died (despite what would today be a huge circulation--about a million) people said that it was because its name implied what it really was--a mirror of the Daily News. Advertisers couldn't see why they should pay twice to advertise in both the News and the Mirror to reach essentially the same audience.
Paul. You might know the answer to this...Just when did the Long Island Press fold up? Did it make it into the 1960's?
I was a working printer (1970) when the LIPress was still around. In the fact, the Suffolk Sun (also a union paper) had just folded. So I think the Press went 1977. It was Jamaica based and was a full-service paper, somewhat analohous to the SI Advance.
When I delivered it from 1949-1954, The Long Island Press was supposed to be a Newhouse paper, and somehow connected to the Newark Star Ledger. The Press seemed to think that we should be able to convince people to give up their subscriptions to the Brooklyn Eagle and subscribe to the Press instead. This was in Brooklyn, and the Press carried very little Brooklyn news.
I must say that those two terrible LIRR accidents were during my time, and were very well covered by the Long Island Press, as they explored every possible aspect of the accidents.
The Press put out a monster paper on the Thursday before Jamaica Day Weekend each year. The many pages of ads made the paper larger than the Sunday New York Times. Most people in my section of Brooklyn shopped in Jamaica, and used the BMT Jamaica Line to get there.
Karl, Paul
While were reminiscing, do you remember the Long Island Star~Journal,
which was based in Long Island City just south of Queens Plaza?
That newspaper carried the news from this hood in Brooklyn besides
publishing the Greenpoint Weekly Star, the last true neighborhood
newspaper in the Garden Spot of the World. Not like that current
garbage pail liner, the Garden Spot Gazette.
;-) Sparky
I don't remember that name at all, Sparky.
I seem to recall some community weekly papers such as the Record & Advertiser, Leader Observer, City Line Post & The Ridgewood Times.
I think that a man named Edward Hershaft was the publisher of most of these weeklies.
There was once the Long Island Press. They were competiers for the Queens readers. I think I read on the Queens Board, they had an agreement to split up Queens. When the Press went out of business, the Star-Journal assumed the subscriptions. Maybe it was the other way around. Both dailys have been out of business at least 30 years.
I delivered the Long Island Press in Brooklyn from 1949-1954.
Someone else posted that the Press folded in the mid 1970's.
You might be right about the date that the Press folding. I think the Star-Journal went first. It was my parents newspaper when they lived in Jacksn Heights. I remember reading it when I was in first grade. It was like the New York Times.
You are correct. The two papers may have had common ownership. The Star-Journal definitely closed up first and their territory taken over by the LIP.
I worked for the NYC Health Dept (accounting office) from 6/71 - 5/72. During this time Jackie Onasis was suing a papparazi for harrassment. The trial was in State Supreme Court which was near my office. The LI Press was reporting on the trial and put in an article that the trial was in room XXX. I went up on a lunch hour and saw about 20 minutes of this trial.
Therefore, the demise of the Long Island Press has to be after 1971.
Thanks Al,
I reversed the closure of the Long Island Star~Journal and
Long Island Press. But they did publish the weekly "Greenpoint Star"
till the end in 1971, without a name change, whether the parent
was Star~Journal or Press. Excuse the reversal.
;-) Sparky
Douce Man,
IIRC, your right on the mark, that the Star~Journal and Press
split Queens. I think the Press folded first and then the
Star~Journal along with the Greenpoint Weekly Star, a spin off.
It's been thirty +/- years we have had that trash sheet in
Greenpoint, that is good for paper training a puppy.
Karl B.,
It was with the geographical split of Queens, because the big
shopping thing in the Long Island Star Journal was Steinway St.
in Astoria. IIRC it basically served North~Western Queens.
The Greenpoint Weekly Star and the LI Star~Jounral were NY Times
publications, not tabloids like the New York Daily News/Mirror/Post.
;-) Sparky
Wow, I delivered the Long Is Press too, in the 60's though. I remember that Newsday was a much better job for kids in those days. Since more people on LI subscribed to Newsday the distance the routes covered were much smaller for the same amount of customers. And in those days Newsday did not have a Sunday edition so Newsday carriers had a day off while LIP carriers worked 7 days.
It was hell getting up at 5 AM on Sunday mornings to deliver that Sunday Press!
When was the very first time you have ever rode the subway (in NYC)? If you remember, please describe it.
I remember riding an R1/9 on the Concourse Line at the age of 4 (1959).
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't exactily remember the first time. My earliest Subway memories are taking the Canarsie line to Union Square and then the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach - about 1956.
Now that I think about it - there werent even any Boroughs back then!
What are you talking about? The boroughs have been occupied since 1898 (1874/95 in the case of the Bronx).
I obviously posted to the wrong thread by mistake. I wanted the post about there not being any boroughs back then (meaning the 1800's, not 1956) to be a follow up to this post !
Now that I think about it - there werent even any Boroughs back then!
Very good Bob. Had the British left by that time??
Larry, RedbirdR33
Very good Bob. Had the British left by that time??
Well 1956 WAS a long time ago!
(see my reply to Pig .)
I was born that year!
My earliest Subway memories are taking the Canarsie line to Union Square
After my "first" subway ride I rmembered mentioned in a different post in this thread, the Myrtle to Union Square run of the Canarsie line is also one of my earliest memories of the subway with my father. (except instead of the Brighton, I remember getting off at the brand new bright orange 49th street station in the 70's) after transfering from the LL at Union Square.
My Grandmother lived in Flatbush and my Dad worked at the foot of Joralemon Street; we lived in Elmont in a rickety house that under certain weather conditions was unliveable (a situation resolved in 1962), so I had numerous rides from early childhood, even as a toddler. I remember riding an R16 and seeing a very scary (and incandescent-lit) Chambers Street station and being terrified of it; I remember my Mother teaching me alphabets by pointing out the mosaic icons on the Flatbush Avenue IRT, I remember going by Broadway BMT subway to Union Square station en route to NY Eye & Ear hospital for a tonsillectomy (1959, it was a BMT Standard), also remember trips to Brooklyn via Jamaica El (R16), and Broad Street station with the brown-and-mustard IND tiles.
As far as my first "pleasure trip" on the Subway, it was July 27, 1963, from Flatbush to Dyre and back. My first solo was January 27, 1969, from Atlantic to Church on the #3 train.
wayne
When was the last time Chambers street had its last renovation?
Has Chambers St ever had a renovation?
I'm sure the lighting isn't original. Outside that and new signage, nothing significant was done at CHambers since it became a thru station in 1931.
Correct. The Wall went up in 1962, and the flourescent light went in shortly thereafter. Prior to the erection of The Wall, the lighting was incandescent, bright bulbs in the original halophane fixtures. Even so, in s a space that large the light was pretty dim and the station was very spooky.
The north exit got a makeover in 2000-2001. Only renovation was at mezzanine level.
wayne
I do remember the old incandescent fixtures hanging from LOOOOOONG poles from the ceiling. The shadows cast by these fixtures must've been eerie.
And then when you go up to the street in the daytime your eyes are not used to the sunlight.
There is evidence of these fixtures' existence; you can see long wires hanging down where the original rods once hung. AND there are two original fixtures left on the northbound closed platform. These are short (no rods), they sit close to the ceiling, they're minus their cast glass shades but the iron caps are still there. They're about at the middle of the station, just about where the ceiling lowers over the northbound tracks, right by the closed stairs.
wayne
Sometime around 1888, when the Collect Pond was all sucked up :)
--Mark
My first solo pleasure trip.
I spent the summer of 1967 riding all summer long. Probably about July, 1967 and it was an all day affair. I was eight then.
I was not allowed north of 59th street or east of Franklin Ave. I had half the system to cruise. That was fine, so I obeyed my parents and never strayed past my boundaries.
My first solo pleasure trip.
I spent the summer of 1967 riding all summer long. Probably about July, 1967 and it was an all day affair. I was eight then.
Have times ever changed. I can't imagine that too many eight-year-olds would be allowed to ride alone today.
I should qualify that first solo of January 27, 1969 as the first APPROVED solo. I was 14 years old at the time. I rode a mixed consist #3 train from Atlantic Avenue to Church Avenue. It seemed like it had one of every type of car running except for the Worlds Fair cars and Steinway Lo-Vs. There was an R12 in the lead (#5780), and there was an R15, an R17, a few R21/R22,and a pair of R29 in the rest of the train. Quite a smorgasbord.
My first SOLO was April 10, 1966 - Easter Sunday - I became separated from my parents at 49th Street and a policeman shepherded me to De Kalb Avenue where I saw my Dad on the platform and rejoined him there.
wayne
Smorgasbord trains were common on the IRT for years. That was about the only good thing about the silver-and-blue paint scheme in the 70s - it homogenized the IRT fleet to an extent.
Say, I remember that Easter Sunday, too. We were still living in South Bend and went to the movies to take in The Singing Nun. Quite a kick seeing Ricardo Montalban playing a priest.
Heh, if my folks knew how often I was using the subway to get to elementary school starting in the 4th grade (age 9), I'd probably still be grounded! Of course, sometimes I would forget to get off the train coming home and take an excursion to ... where-ever, always blaming the "delay" on the wait for the B-68 bus at Coney Island Ave & Kings Highway.
--Mark
My mother and I spent an entire day railfanning on July 20, 1967. Many firsts: my first ride on an A train; first ride on the BMT standards (ugh!). About the only thing we didn't do was go up CPW. We would have gone to Coney Island had it not been for time constraints. Instead, we went as far as DeKalb before heading back to Manhattan. Saw a train go by on the bypass track and got my first glimpse of the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station.
As far as my first "pleasure trip" on the Subway, it was July 27, 1963, from Flatbush to Dyre and back. My first solo was January 27, 1969, from Atlantic to Church on the #3 train.
I remember my first "solo" trip. It was in September 1984. I was in the 7th grade, and me and a few friends decided to take the subway home. Since my school was on 101st Ave, we took the A (a slant R40!) from Rockaway Blvd. to B'way ENY, then up to the J back into Woodhaven. Boy was I terrified!
What was so terrifying? The slants ripping past those local stops, perhaps?
1. Travelling alone on the subway.
2. Going into ENY at the height of the crack wars.
3. My parents finding out.
Hey, I was 12. And the A train I rode went local.
1. Travelling alone on the subway.
2. Going into ENY at the height of the crack wars.
3. My parents finding out.
My first solo trip I mentioned earlier, my second one involved the J-A ENY transfer like yours. It was also the mid 80's. Again, I was with my cousin. We took the M to Myrtle, the J to ENY, and then the A to the Franklin Shuttle. My parents would have killed me if they knew we were alone in East New York on the subway. It was my first ride on the Broadway el east of Myrtle Ave. I was facsinated with all the abandoned and burnt out buildings along Broadway. I was running from side to side trying to take it all in....an abandoned theater near Gates, a building I used to call the "candy-stripe" building, and so many others.
When I was older, I did it quite often (then of course with my parents consent) when I used to take the same route to ENY to catch the C to Seaside to go to the Beach. As bad is Broadway is now, it sure has improved since the mid-80's!
My mother used to comment when I was little when riding the J train past Eastern Parkway was like riding "through Berlin in 1945". By 1985 I finally understood what she meant. It looks positively cosmopolitian today versus 15 years ago.
My mother used to comment when I was little when riding the J train past Eastern Parkway was like riding "through Berlin in 1945".
I assume you mean west of Eastern Parkway, right?
Yep. But east of EP was no picnic starting from Cleveland St either.
In addition to my "first" subway ride mentioned in another post in this thread, my first subway ride without an adult was when my cousin and I took the L to Lorimer/Metropolitan to take the G to Woodhaven to go to Queens Center - boy did I feel "grown-up" when we did that!
Infantile amnesia precludes me from describing my first ride.
I do remember when I was 4 or so, I used to joyride on the F line with my grandfather from Ditmas Avenue to Borough Hall. I always wanted to go all the way to 179th Street (so that means that this happened after I learned how to read, so I had to have been at least 4). I remember that the lights didn't turn on immediately when the train entered the tunnel. That was fun.
I remember going to Coney Island via subway with my father. I remember being interested by the double deck structure at West 8th.
I remember blue-doored trains running on the Brighton El at Brighton Beach. Although this was from the street. Until I found this site, I thought I had imagined blue-doored trains. When were the R-32s rebuilt?
The R32s began their GOH in 1988 and continued for two years. Most of them were done in 1989.
wayne
i first was in late 50's when a my anut took to ci. she lived on rodgers ave. i recall the car had door controls in the middle of two doors that didn't work. my first ride alone was on the H&M (pre-path)days.
That must have been awfully hard on the Conductor!
H&M - Black cars, fisheyes or "K" cars?
wayne
You're referring to the BMT standards. Most of them were coupled into 3-car sets, in which case the only door controls that worked were in the middle car. This meant that on a 6-car train, the conductor would be in either the second or fifth car. I for one cannot ever recall seeing the conductor at a button console in the two years I rode on those cars. It could be I never rode in the same car as the conductor.
One other note: the door controls wouldn't function without a key, so if you walked up to a button console and randomly started pushing buttons, nothing would happen unless the door key was inserted and turned first.
The Brighton line was almost 100% R68 from 1987 on. I never saw R32's on the Brigton line after Christmas 1986.
The blue doors were painted silver grey by the time the mid-70s rolled in, many years before GOH.
--Mark
The blue doors were painted silver grey by the time the mid-70s rolled in, many years before GOH.
Actually, in the mid-80's, the R32, R38, R40, and R42's all got blue doors again just before they were rebuilt. That's probably what Pig means. I remember them when I was a teenager, and rode them on the M.
Technically my first ride was in 1986. My mom was going to the hospital(BTW this was in May 1986. I was born June 1986). She on the A going to 59 street. I presume it was a R44.
My first subway ride I can remember was on a R62. I was going from my former apartment in Brooklyn to my grandma's house in Manhatthan. I loved the way that 4 train speed through Brooklyn and Manhatthan. I still remember seeing the crewmen on the tracks as we entered 14 street. Ironically this was nearly a week after the train wreck. Its also how my infantile fear of subways became a boyhood and manhood love for subways.
I was about three or four years old. Dad took us on a family outing to the Bronx Zoo. We rode on the 3rd Avenue El......
IN MANHATTAN! :)
Otherwise around 1963 I started going about in the city by myself. I'd go into town with my father, and while he was at work, I'd ride on the subways.
In those days he had told me that the IND had the newest equipment, but it became instantly clear that he had not traveled on the BMT, as I marveled at the R-27s...
And then I saw an R-32! (WOW)
Elias
Probably before I was one week old... and I don't remember it. But it was in 1959, probably on the Brighton Line and probably a BMT Standard running to Manhattan.
My first subway ride was on August 15, 1997, when I was 11 years old. Me, my mom and my brother rode the LIRR from Baldwin to Penn Station. Then we transferred to a northbound C train (think it was an R44) and rode it to 81st St and visited the Museum of Natural History. Then we took another C train to 42nd St and visited Times Square and had lunch. After that, we took the R train to 5th Ave to visit FAO Schwarz and the surrounding area. Afterwards, we took the N train back to 34th St, walked to Penn, and rode the LIRR back to my grandma's house, rounding out one hell of a day!
I lived in Richmond Hill for the first year of my life (72/73) off of Liberty Ave, so my first ride was probably on an A train. Yikes, that means I probably had my first subway ride on an A train of those dreaded R10's I hate so much!
As far as the earliest memory of a subway ride, they consist of riding the J train from Woodhaven to 168th St. with my family to shop. I don't recall the R7/R9's which were still running at this time, but I do remember the R16/27/30/42's.
Well for a sub-talkers like me it seems ironic that my first ride on a train was on an el not a subway. It was a Third Avenue Local from 149 Street to 76 Street on November 2, 1949. Sorry guys I didn't get the car numbers. I was only seven days old.
MY youngest son Robert took his first train ride on an el train also. It was BU 1404 on October 13,1979. He was two months old and it was during an Open House at the Coney Island Yard.
Larry, RedbirdR33
My first rides were from 23rd St. to 177th-Parkchester on the 6 to visit my aunt and uncle, though the first ride I really remember was a 1963 trip to Yankee Stadium -- Yanks 8, Kansas City A's 1, Low V uptown on the 4 and brand new R-29 Redbird on the way home.
My first solo was in the summer of 1969, taking the LL out to Brooklyn to ride the Myrtle Ave. el to Jay Street before they closed the line (plus I had to see what that "mysterious" ticket they gave you to get on the IND at Jay-Boro Hall looked like, since it had been listed on all the subway maps I had ever seen). I didn't even realize the Q cars were made of wood when I was riding on them or that they once had gates; all I knew was they made a much higher-pitched sound coming around the curve before Wyckoff than the M train did when it entered the station, and they had those cool little solo compartments at the end of the cars (though the placement of the door windows wasn't so hot as far as I was concerned).
The one ride I remember was when I was round 3-4yrs old on an R-1/9 CC train...All I remember was getting off at 110th St and being home @109th n Columbus..When we moved to Washington Heights (Dec. 1, 1974), then the CC "shrunk" and turned into a 1 LOL!!...My firt solo was in the early 80's from Dyckman St IRT to Columbus Circle..Happy times back then!! :)
I rememeber riding an R32 CC train on the Councourse, it was the scariest-looking train I have EVER seen at the time, with those blue doors and that rippled surface, I hated it...
I saw an R62 on the 4 one time at Mosholu and always wanted to take a ride on that shiny new train, all of this when I was around 5 years old...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
I'm not positive about my first ride but I do remember as a toddler in the 50's riding on the Sea Beach with my grandmother. Although most posters associate the Sea Beach with triplexes I remember that we definitely rode on BMT Standards because of the columns between the door leafs and the center door column had the door controls. I also remember my grandmother making us run to the next car at each station as the Standards had locked doors between cars. The triplexes had open sections.
In the early 60's my dad took us to the Polo Grounds to see the Mets (pre-Shea). He drove us from Nassau Cty to 179th St where we took the "E" to 7th Av then the "D" to the Polo Grounds. I believe that was the first time I rode on the R1-9's, the last being the 1689 charter a coupla months ago.
As far as my first solo if you include the LIRR I'm not sure which came first. If its subway only then my first solo was as a young teen about 12. My other grandmother lived by the Newkirk & Nostrand Station on the IRT. We were getting off after a trip to the city when after much begging she let me stay on solo to the next stop, Flatbush and then take the train back to Newkirk. However, I did a couple of solos on the LIRR for the one stop from Hempstead to Country life Press. I only had the fare for one way so I walked the other way. I remember one time I was lucky enough to get a double decker. I'm not sure if that was before or after the Newkirk-Flatbush solo.
Another thing I remember from Brooklyn was as a toddler seeing either PCC's or electric buses, I'm not sure. I assume though that they were electric buses as their span ended later than the PCC's. Either way I called them "buses with things on top". I remember in kindergarten the teacher showed us a picture of a trolley and asked what it was and I replied "a bus with the things on top"!!!
Another old memory was when my grandfather took me to a store he was doing business with in his '48 Plymouth and parked next to an el. He told me to wait for him and it took a while. I was watching the el & saw alternating gate car trains and BMT Standards so I assume(now, I had no idea then) it was the Myrtle N/O Broadway.
I don't know if this is my "first" subway ride, but it's the first one I remember:
It was the around 1977, and I was about 6 years old. My neighbor had her grandson over to visit. He was about my age, and we used to play with each other. One Friday, when her grandson was over to visit, she decided to take us to the Radio City Chistmas Show. I remember that she took us on the M train. She brought us to the "railfan" window after getting on at Forest Ave, and me and her grandson rode that (not a clue as to what class car - I assume it was an R27-30). I remember looking down and seeing the water as we went over the Willy B. I assume we got off at Essex, and continued out trip to 47-50th Street on the F. I also remember the ride home, in which we took the L train (I remember that because I remember vaguely waiting for the M to come at Myrtle-Wyckoff. It's funny how some memeories stick so clearly in our minds. Who knows that may have been the subway trip that got me "hooked".......
I believe the first station I have ever been in is Myrtle Av./ Wyckoff Av.(with my father), and I still go to it today! I believe my first ride was on the (L). During the mid-1980's, I believe the R40m/R42 have completely taken over the (L), I don't remember seeing any older types of subway cars. If there was, then give me proof.
Also, I remember riding the (M) line, and seeing these subway cars with circular railfan windows, I don't remember what subway car that was though.
Basicly, the (L) and (M) were my first 2 subway lines, and today they are still my favorite. In fact, I was born in Wyckoff Hospital, located right above the DeKalb (L) station.
>>"During the mid-1980's, I believe the R40m/R42 have completely taken over the (L), I don't remember seeing any older types of subway cars. If there was, then give me proof."<<
It would have to be 1987 or 1988 after the GOH of R42's but some R27's and R30's may have hung in there until the non GOH R30's were scrapped with R27's.
>>"Also, I remember riding the (M) line, and seeing these subway cars with circular railfan windows, I don't remember what subway car that was though."<<
You must be talking about a R16.
Sorry, but want I pictures of the (L) during the mid-1980's, or having it come from a long time, true (L) rider. That's why I said proof.
So those were the R16's that had a short life(from reading the "Worst Subway car" posts)? I never knew they were on the (M), how many years did they actually last?
Sorry, but want I pictures of the (L) during the mid-1980's, or having it come from a long time, true (L) rider. That's why I said proof.
Can I prove the R27-30's were on the L in the mid-80's....no. But I am pretty sure they were. I rode the L quite often from the mid 80's to the late 90's. I don't have any photos (I didn't take photos back then). If you remember the R16's (circled windows) on the M, you must have been on an R27-30 on the L at some point.
So those were the R16's that had a short life(from reading the "Worst Subway car" posts)? I never knew they were on the (M), how many years did they actually last?
I think the R16's lasted until late 1986 or early 1987 on the M. Actually, in 1986 they were quite prevelant on the M.
I believe you. Anyone who loves the (L), (M), and (J) like me, is someone I can trust. Not someone who lives in, lets say, the Bronx, who probably never been on the (L), and somehow knows about everything, in every borough. Those type of people on this board I refuse to beleive(they are liars to me), unless they show proof.
GP38 Chris, you said you grew up with these lines too, so I feel comfortable with your response. I just wish this site had pictures of the old (L).
I can't remember the "first" ride - my first memories are of riding on the BMT Standards and Triplexes that used to roam the Astoria line back in the early 1960's.... Heck if it wasn't for the impression those cars left I may never have become a railfan. I remember hating the R30's that replaced them (I remember hating the hard seats and facing the middle of the car instead of being able to get a window seat facing forward), although later I did find the R32's cool with their new look and blue doors.
I cannot for the life of me remember exactly when I rode my first subway train. I could have been three or four during World War II. What I do know is when I first really rode a subway train, at least that was what I call my coming out party. It was Saturday April 19, 1947, and my dad and I were shopping on Pacific Street when my father got the urge to go to Avenue U to see his parents. We got into the Pacific Street station and this nice looking train, a nice brown color, pulls into the station bearing a #4 on its head. I asked what train was this and he said the Sea Beach. That for me was when riding the subway first meant exactly that to me. I made sure I never rode another train if I could help it, and God help my parents if they decided to take the West End or 4th Avenue local where those trains criss-crossed. Now you know why I am Sea Beach Fred.
That's how I was during the three years I commuted to Brooklyn on Saturdays in the late 60s. Nothing except an A train would do between 42nd and 14th Sts. Anything else was sacrilege.
I understand you perfectly Steve. You are preaching to the choir by saying that to me. Try it on others who can't fathom how a person can get so attached to one train. Have a good week.
I grew up near the Ditmas & Church Avenue F train stations. One of the first rides I remember was as a 2 or 3 year old being taken to Ditmas to catch the Culver shuttle. I remember my mom helping me count out the number of cars on it - four. I also remember the cars being red - apparently an R27/R30, which I of course did not know about then. Nor did I realize that the line would soon be history.
I have stronger recollections of the Culver shuttle line after it closed. The structure remained up for several years, which I recall frequently passing under en route to Borough Park.
I can't remember my first ride although I'm pretty sure it was on the #2 or #5 train. However, I do remember my first time riding the IND. I was 8 years old and I know their were lettered routes, but I had never seen them. Well we moved to the West Bronx near Grand Concourse and Tremont Ave - and remember until this point I had only seen/ridden IRT cars. One day we were on the platform at the Tremont Ave station. Then a D train of R-42's arrived and I was amazed. My first thought was... This train looks like the trains on Park Ave - The Metro-North M-1's that I'd see as the Bx36 or Bx40 buses passed Park Ave. That day when we arrived in midtown and I saw R-10, R-32, R-38 and R-44 I was just in awe. The slant R-40 really blew me away.
Wayne
Hmmmm.
I seem to recall that my first subway ride was on the Jerome Avenue line in the Bronx. I lived in the Morris Heights section in the Bronx from birth in 1965 until 1970. I remember we once took the 4 from the Burnside Avenue station to my aunt's apartment on Nostrand Avenue in Brooklyn. I think that was the only subway trip I made before moving to Queens in 1970.
In about 1972,I came into NYC from Baltimore for an audition. With shaking hands,I got off the train at Penn Station with subway directions to Queens where a friend had offered to let me spend the night. I remember that the experience reminded me of a roller coaster ride I had been on at carnivals, where to increase the thrill, they had a black cover go over the car.
It was nightime.
The train was shaking so violently on the rails, that I thought something was wrong. My anxiety was soothed though, as all of the other passengers were nonchalantly reading their
papers or nearly asleep. It felt dangerous, yet safe at the same time. Amazingly, I got to my destination. I don't recall, but I imagine several New Yorkers must have pointed me to the right train
as well as the right way to walk when I got out at the station.
So much for gruff New Yorkers! I find they have always been there for me in a pinch!
I'm a Baltimore guy; however, for six months in 1963 my mother and I lived in the Bronx (don't ask where!). I have vague memories of standing on a dim underground platform and waiting for a specific train. I remember getting upset when the first thing smokin' wasn't our train. (I was four at the time.)
My first subway ride as an adult was on 6/29/84. I'm a fan of cult movies, and that Friday I'd gone to NYC to see the midnight show at the 8th St. Playhouse. I arrived at the Port Authority, thinking I would take a cab down to the Village and hang out until showtime. But on my way upstairs from the bus platform I saw the subway entrance. I didn't know a thing about the system, except that it was supposedly dirty and dangerous. But out of curiosity (and probably because Baltimore had just gotten its own subway line) I went in anyway; I knew enough about NYC to look for a downtown train, and I figured I would get off at the numbered street closest to 8th St.
I got on a local train at 42nd St. (at the time I didn't know the difference between local and express). The train was indeed dirty, but it was full of people, which seemed safe enough for me. I saw that there was a stop at West 4th St. - good enough. I remember my local "racing" an express in the tunnel between 14th and W. 4th! At W. 4th I saw exit signs for 8th St. and found myself in front of Crazy Eddie's - around the corner from the theatre!
After buying my movie ticket and shopping at Venus Records, I decided to explore the subway a little more. I went back to W. 4th and went in on the downtown side. Right away there was an announcement about trouble in the system, that Brooklyn riders should go to the "BMT track".
I didn't know what that was, but someone was kind enough to point the way. I was surprised to find another set of tracks and platforms two levels below! (Of course, I know now that there's no such thing as a "BMT track" at West 4th.) I think the first thing to come along was a D, which I rode for some distance into Brooklyn before reversing and getting off at DeKalb Ave. From there I walked to my relatives' house on Cambridge Place - a long walk at dusk in a rather rough area. (I knew the way from several car trips.) My uncle, who worked for the TA, told me how to get the A at Clinton-Washington for the trip back to the city.
I still had time to kill, so I stayed on that A deep into upper Manhattan (probably 168 St.) before returning to W. 4th. The CPW Express dash became my first favorite run.
After the midnight movie double feature I had more than four hours to burn before my Trailways bus home, so against all better judgement I headed right into the subway! Again I got the uptown A, this time all the way to 207th St. and back. I'd intended to get off at PABT and wait out the bus, but somewhere on the upper west side I dozed off and woke up as the train pulled into W. 4th. Crossing over, the first uptown train was something called an "E express". With still two hours to wait I decided to see what an E express was like - and ended up being mightily impressed by the speedy run in Queens. I think at that moment I bacame a railfan. Finally, and regretfully, I exited the subway at the PABT, and went home.
But I was back three weeks later!
--Randy Brown
Baltimore MD
The first ride I can remeber was with my father, on the culver line (I think) Im not sure what kind of car it was, It was about 1948, and I was only 4 years old. Pretty sure it was a standard. First "solo" ride was in about 1957. I used to take the Culver, into the city to visit my Grandma. I started taking the train daily to my job, in Manhattan in about 62'.
The first ride I can remeber was with my father, on the culver line (I think) Im not sure what kind of car it was, It was about 1948, and I was only 4 years old. Pretty sure it was a standard. First "solo" ride was in about 1957. I used to take the Culver, into the city to visit my Grandma. I started taking the train daily to my job, in Manhattan in about 62'.
I hope you made it a point to ride a Triplex #4 Sea Beach a few times. If not, you missed out on one great ride on one great train.
It was on July 21, 1965 on an N train of shiny new R-32s. We boarded at 36th St. in Brooklyn and zipped over the Manhattan Bridge (north side) to 34th St. Later that day, after visiting the Empire State Building, we went down to the Battery for a ferry ride to the Statue of Liberty. Can't recall what train we took; it was either a QT or RR.
I still kick myself for not seeing any Triplexes AND not realizing that Transit Day was held the following day at the World's Fair!
My first MTA subway ride was on the 4th of July weekend of 2000. A friend of mine was visiting me in Philly and we took a day trip to New York. After walking across the Brooklyn Bridge we rode the A from High Street to 34th-Penn station to see the Empire State Building.
I'd ridden PATH much earlier, though. My first ride on it was in February 1999. I'd moved to Philadelphia from Mississippi a month-and-a-half before and I took a day trip the New York for two reasons: I wanted to visit Ellis Island and, not being familiar at the time with northeast rail tranist, I wanted to find out if it was possible to get from Philly to New York only on commuter trains. I took NJT to Newark and rode PATH into the former WTC station.
My first ride on any subway was on the Chicago L. I don't know exactly when, but my parents are from Chicago, and from early childhood we'd go visit there, so all I can say is that I first rode it in the early 1970s.
Mark
The first time I rode the NYC subway for me was about 5-6 yrs ago. And I remenbered how excited I was the closer I got to Penn Sta. (NYC). And I went straight to the 34th street train station just to watch all the trains pass by for like alomost 45min to an hour. I was so overwhelmed by all the subway lines and which ones to ride b/c here in Philly as you know there only 2 two heavy rail routes and those lines are quite boring to me, since I'm a regular rider. Also, the Market-Frankford El's ATC project is halfway complete as ATC operation is operational from 15th street westward. That's the only thing that interesting here in this city as far as rail service is concerned. And now when you ride the El now in that particular section when you can hear all the neat little cab signals alerts which I find very interesting. Anyway, get back on subject, my main concern was to ride all the lines that ran express b/c I have a thing for speed and the sounds of subway trains in motion. But I soon found out that most of the expresses didn't achieve the type of speed I was lookin for as most trains seem to struggle to get good speed due to all those timers I found that quite annoying but I still continued to travel back to NYC to railfan on a frequent basis and I still do to this day.
LightRailChic ;-)
Don't remember exactly when it was, but as a tot, I accompanied my mother on many trips to her doctor near the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 5th Ave. So the ride would have been a Brighton Express to Atlantic, and then the Lexington Ave express to 86th St. I don't remember the Brighton portion, but I do remember the R-17 we rode on the Lexington Ave express, with those incandecent bulbs going by at what seemed 90 miles per hour!
--Mark
It was so long ago in my memory that one of the first times riding the subway was when the R33 (the first stainless steel cars, with the four circled windows on the doors) was sitting as the Franklin Ave shuttle at Prospect Park station as I was on the old QJ. I was only 4 then. And I remember getting stuck on an R10 car (maybe an R1-9) on the West End line once.
Those were the R-11s you're referring to. The R-33s are IRT, LAHT steel, and have one window per door leaf.
I was a number off, (and we rode the R33WF cars yesterday) was meant the R34 because it was renumbered from R11 in 1965 during a GOH.
I can't exactly recall my very first ride, but my oft-repeated favorite trip was with my parents from home in Long Island City to visit my aunt in Manhattan Beach, Brooklyn in the years during and after World War II. We took the BMT Flushing Shuttle (Q-type) from 40th St (Lowery St) and Queens Blvd. to Queensboro Plaza, which was still an 8-track station. We transferred across platform to the 4th Avenue Local (BMT Standard), which we took to Times Square. We transferred across platform again for the Brighton Express (usually but not always BMT Triplex). We exited at either Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach stations, depending on my parents' mood, because my aunt's place was the same distance from both stations.
It was a great time to ride, because SEVEN of the eight tracks at Queensboro Plaza were still being utilized. Times Square station was exhilirating, with the pie tin-like markers over the express platform, indicating where to stand for Sea Beach, West End and Brighton expresses.
It hooked me on subway riding for life!
I had my tonsils out during the winter of 1940-41. the surgery was performed at the Lutheran Hospital Clinic, and my father had to carry me home on the train the same day. I was almost five years old.
I can remember him holding me in the shelter of one of the stairways at Eastern Parkway while we waited for a BMT Standard to come in to take us out to Crescent St. The wait seemed to be forever, and my throat hurt like the dickens.
Check out the pic attached of a new R38 interior. It seems some R38's came with air conditioning. How many? I can't remember any R38's with AC until they were overhauled. Also, they also had additional flourescent light fixtures in the middle of the ceilings. These were eliminated during the GOH. Why? The cars as they are now are so dark it's hard to read a paper without straining your eyes.
10 R38s came with factory eqiupped A/C
Peace,
ANDEE
The last ten R-38's (#4140-4149) were the only ones with air conditioning, finally proving that NYC subway cars could be air conditioned after a couple of failed attempts.
As for the fluorescent lighting down the center of the original ceilings, my guess is all the cars were to have identical ceilings and the old ones had to go. Why, I have no idea. But as for the dim lighting on those backlit ads, the R-38 GOH should have had the same lighting as the R-32 GOH contract. Why, once again, who knows. Maybe everyone has their own different ideas.
Bill "Newkirk"
10 got AC as built. Ripping out the middle row of lights seems to have ben a standard on the GOH of most conventional R-units.
This car looks bright because it was new, but when old, even with the middle row of lights, it was just as dim or dimmer than the GOH version. (The same for the slants). I think the trip of clear plastic between the ads and the ceiling on the newer lights (notice that thid older one doesn't have it and the ads go up to the ceiling) is what helped make up for the lack of center lights.
Wow, the interior looks far better back then than now [also with other car classes before the GOH].
Anyway, when the R38's first came in, the system was in demand for more cars equipped with A/C so 4140-4149 [obviously 3950-4139 was not] was built with A/C, which was successful and it also brought the sliding window, which is still in future orders to this day. Since the R38 got a heavy overhaul by GE so the A/C units were installed throughout the car but the digital sign pushed the A/C units more toward the center of the car. Yes, the lights are very dark and is not good but they didn't have any choice but to do so. {And of course the original handgrabs and doors are gone along with the attractive interior}
Did you guys forget that the Kawasaki R110A has the center lights in them? Well, they do!
The car Nos. of the R-38s that had factory air conditioning are 4140-4149.
#3 West End Jeff
Check out the pic attached of a new R38 interior. It seems some R38's came with air conditioning. How many? I can't remember any R38's with AC until they were overhauled. Also, they also had additional flourescent light fixtures in the middle of the ceilings. These were eliminated during the GOH. Why? The cars as they are now are so dark it's hard to read a paper without straining your eyes.
In the bad old days of the late 70's, the R-38 AC cars didn't working AC on any of the ten cars and the cars were like a furnace in the summer. I remember them on the (B) West End. Rumor has it that the AC hadn't worked in many years before the GOH.
Bill "Newkirk"
I can't recall any functioning AC on the R42's prior to GOH either.
Prior to GOH, riders had a choice on the R-42s: working lights, or working air-conditioning. It seemed that there weren't any R-42s with both things working at the same time!
David
On the "northern D" from 1986-87, you didn't have to choose. Most cars were dark AND hot.
The south D had the same thing. In 1986, while staying with my Grandparents, I took an R32 on the Q which was hot, and vandalized by those spray vandals, and returned in an R42 on the D from West 8th Street and the Aquarium, and that was very hot as well. The interior, and the train itself was clean, but the temperature outright stunk.
Luckily the D/Q got the R68's that fall. The Northern D didn't get R68A's until 1988. They did however, get some rehabbed R42's (not overhauled, just painted and repaired) by the fall of '87.
Well, I do remember some trains on the Q (R32's) still badly vandalized in pictures seen in 1987. I guess the D/Q got whatever at that time CI shops could spare back then on top of whatever R68's were in service at that time. I do remember there were first starting to receive them, and the higher numbers were not until late 1987, then the R68A's started to appear in early 1988.
Here's a rough schedule of R68's going into service, based on personal observations:
2500-2700: October to December 1986
2700-2800: December 1986 to February 1987
2800-2924: May to September 1987 (directly to the new Astoria N)
The D got them first (to the consternation f those Brighton riders who used the "Q only" local stops. All 60' cars were gone by President's Day 1987. If there were any afterwards, they were a rare fluke.
Wow! I'll say those Brighton riders got them fast.
Yes, once the first ones began showing up in early October, they rapidly replaced the crap Brighton line riders were using. I remember the advertisements on the old trains heralding their introduction. Not coincidentally these ads were also used to publicize the bad news that the temporary B/D reroutes of 1986, scheduled to end late that same month, were to remain in effect "indefinatley".
Having lights but no A/C or having A/C but no lights is akin to being caught between a rock and a hard place.
#3 West End Jeff
They were pretty much in order in the summer of 1985, but by 1986, it was pretty much downhill then. The same with the R40s. The last summer they spent on the "A" (1984), they were working just fine. By the time I started riding them again on the Southern "B" and "D" in 1986, they were in terrible shape.
By the time the R38s hit the "A", all ten car's A/C were working.
The last 10 R38s 4140-4149 were built with A/C from the beginning. As far as the lighting is concern, all R38s had lighting down the middle. The un air conditioned car interiors were exactly identical to the R32s (car #s 3800-3949 only).
As far as the dim lights, chaulk it up to the TA not taking care of the lighting. When the R38s were first overhauled, they were just as bright as the MK R32s.
One last point, where did you get this picture? I've been trying to find color interior shots from the 1970s and 80s (pre GOH) on the web, but no luck.
This is a beautifical picture.
It's on this site... http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r38/r38-4147a.jpg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got 'em from the car roster page. They're new scans.
Here's another R38 interior from 1967.
Here's a new R42 interior from 1969.
Thank you very much. This really takes my back.
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Cleanairbus
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Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Does anybody know where you can ride a train to a college football game?
I know that Septa's Universtiy City stop is near Franklin Field for Penn, and that Temple's stadiums are undoubtedly within walking distance of the Temple Regional Rail and BSS stops.
I also wondered if the Unversity of Washington and Washington State University have a chartered train out toward Pullman for the Apple Cup games.
For those not up on your knowledge of the 42nd state, University of Washington is the Huskies, and if located just a few miles north of Seattle's CBD. Washington State University is the cougars, and they're out in the middle of nowhere, Pullman, WA, a ways northwest of Lewiston Idaho, and south-southeast of Spokanne WA. Every year they play a game during rivals week, wherein Udub and Wazoo face off, called the Apple Cup, for quite obvious reasons.
Now most of the population of washington, whether Udub fan, Wazoo fan, or damn California transplant UCKla or ewwUSC fan, lives near the Puget Sound, which makes the year that Udub hosts the Apple Cup quite convienient to the fans (not to mention that they have, undoubtedly, the most beautiful stadium in all College Football, right on Lake Washington, with the Cascades behind it). However, when a game is at Washington State, it means a drive of some 300 miles, to within 7 miles of the eastern Washington border, often through the cascades under not-such-nice condition, and the final drive from I-90 to Pullman is on tiny country backroads.
Does anybody think that a charter train of Sounder, Superliner, or Talgo equipment over Stevens Pass would stand a chance in this niche? The final distance, possibly 70 or so miles from Spokanne to Pullman would nearly have to be via bus, although, with a reverse move in Spokanne, the tracks of the Palouse River and Coulee City Railroad could be used, and that runs straight to Pullman, but, who knows what the conditions on those tracks are. Also, as an added bonus, I think that it'd be cool to see Sounder or Talgo cars crossing the old GN bridge over the Columbia at Wenatchee, doing the Trinidad curve, and passing through Stevens Pass. Another possible routing could be through Stampede Pass on the old NP, down to Pasco, then a reversing move up the Snake River to the Palouse River railroad, which is owned by the same company as the PCC, and runs directly into Pullmann. The southern Stampede pass routing might be quicker, but I don't know if Stampede is able to accept double stack equipment, so it might be Amfleets or Talgo's for the Apple Cup train.
One advantage the Sounders and Talgo's have over the Superliners and Amfleets is that they can be turned quickly without the engines having to be uncoupled. The service could be marketed as an overnight service, catch the train friday night, arrive at Pullman Saturday morning, back on the train after the game, and arrive in Seattle sunday morning, after a nice sleep on the train, that is one point where the Superliners beat the Talgos and Sounders, both feature no accomodations in the way of sleeping, the Sounders would be worst, since they are nothing but normal Bombardier BiLevel Commuter Cars, with only a little attention paid to passenger comfort, Superliners might offer sleeping accomodations at an additional price.
BTW: Anybody get to see the WSU - UCLA game? It was great, 48 to 27. IN YOUR FACE CALIFORNIA, USC OUT OF THE ROSE BOWL, UCLA NOWHWERE NEAR! And, all the better that Udub got the Apple Cup without screwwing up Wazoo's chances at the Rose Bowl too badly. Course now they gotta go play Iowa, but it's better than ewwUSC going to the Rose Bowl.
Yes, part of my purpose in making this message was to gloat over WSU's victory against UCkLA. But hey, I gotta hear all about the Angels, the Fighting Irish, or, worst, the damn Yankees beating my Mariners to steal the AL championship from them. You don't like it, move along!
I believe that there are shuttle trains that run in Syracuse for football and basketball games at the Carrier Dome. At one point, they were discussing running a round trip from Binghamton to Syracuse for the football season.
The service was/is called "OnTrack".
CG
OnTrack is alive and well. From Syracuse, you can ride a good 'ole RDC-1 over to the game. Soon you'll be able to take AMTRAK to Syracuse and then do a "cross-platform transfer" to the RDC to take you to the game.
Take Pride,
Brian
You can take trains to collge football games in New York, of course, though not to the big time.
I have taken MetroNorth to/from college football at Fordham's Jack Coffey Stadium, where my alma mater Colgate often plays. Fordham isn't a football power like it was in the 1930s, but it is in the Division I-AA playoffs this year, and my cousin is an assistant coach.
I have also taken the 1/9 subway to Columbia's Baker Field near 215th Street Station. Again, Columbia isn't what it was when Sid Luckman, NYC's greatest football player, played there. But there is a lovely view of the Harlem River from the stands.
At one time, there used to be special trains up to Army on the west shore of the Hudson. Not anymore. But the last time I was there, while taking an hour each way in and out of parking, I noticed people boarding special boats for Manhattan.
You can also get to Princeton by train. Haven't done it for football, but I did do it last year for ice hockey. I took the train straight from work, my wife drove down with kids, and we met at the "dinky" station on the Princeton spur. For the first time in a while, Colgate won last year.
By now everyone knows my favorite letter is N, the letter of my train, the letter of my favorite name, Nicolas, and my two favorite college football teams, Notre Dame and Navy. Navy sucks, I know, but the Army-Navy game is big stuff to me even know. I can tell you I was elated yesterday when Navy crushed Army 58-12. It always makes my college football season when Navy defeats Army. I even copied the story from the CNN-SI Sports Website so I have my copy I can look at the rest of the year.
Go figure Navy. They gave Notre Dame all they could handle before finally bowing, then a week later didn't do squat against my alma mater, UConn, losing 38-0. (We finally beat 'em after being manhandled by them while I was there.)
BTW, you can still take a South Shore train to South Bend to see the Irish.
My plans are to go to South Bend next fall for the SC-Notre Dame game. How I get there is something I haven't figured out yet. Probably fly to Chicago and take the train to the game.
You can fly directly into South Bend. Michiana Regional Airport is a far cry from when we lived there. It can land jets now, something it couldn't do when it was known as St. Joseph County Airport. I would suggest booking a hotel room now. The USC game is Oct. 18, IIRC.
If you do fly into Chicago, South Shore trains now go to Michiana Regional Airport, and you can take a bus from there to at least downtown, if not the ND campus. Don't ask me which one; remember, we left South Bend in 1967.
The Villanova SEPTA R5 (Paoli Local) station is on campus within easy walking distance to basketball and football venues.
Rutgers' campus bus connects Losers' Stadium with the New Brunswick train station.
Georgia Tech's football stadium is three blocks west of North Ave stationon MARTA. Not that you would want to see us play, this season was AWFUL. I have one more football season left before I graduate, I had better see us at least get ranked by then. At least my FALCONS (Dome/GWCC/Philips Arena/CNN Center on MARTA) are dominating the league, today's game aganist Tampa is going to be a good one!
Well, the Yellow Jackets stung UConn earlier this year. At least the coach called off the wolves and didn't run it up.
Well there's that big thing with the Army Navy game and all those extra trains comming from all over the east coast converging on Philly. They take you right down to south Philly and park 'em all in the freight yards down there which are just like a short walk from Municipal Stadium where the big game takes place. The only annoyance is that you have to choose weather or not to ride a GG-1 hauled train or one of those all Silverliner trains. Those Silverliners are really nice, air conditioned and even a train 14 cars long can accelerate quickly.
Mike, you're not old enough to remember GG1s hauling trains to Municipal Stadium in South Philly, and even I'm too young to remember 20 or more trains, but I caught all five of them entering the bridge over the Schuylkill River at the Civic Center in 1974.
#901 from New York
#4932 and partner, from Washington
#914 from New York (my Dad's in the pic)
#925 from New York
unidentified pair from Washington
Uh, JFK Memorial Stadium no longer exists. Besides, this year's game was played at Giants Stadium.
I know, it was a blast from the past.
How about the 1/9 to the Columbia Univ. field uptowm Manhattan.
Imagine this scenario.
You are a big shot movie director who is directing a movie that is set in New York. The script calls for a certain amount of subway scenes and you must decide how it is done. If you factor in the possible costs, would you either:
A film using the real stations in the system.
B film using Hoyt-Schermerhorn with fake signage.
C build a set
D FILM IN TORONTO USING TTA CARS, STATIONS, ETC!!!! :(
You also can use LIRR & Metro North too.
A, if too costly, then B
Filming in "real" stations is difficult thanks to New York's 24/7 operations. I suppose GO's might provide some opportunities.
There are far more options available than the ones mentioned. For example:
Ghost - filmed @ 42nd & 8th Lower level
Jacob's Ladder filmed @ Bergen Lower
Mr. Wonderful filmed @ Bergen Lower.
Lost World - Jurassic Park II filmed @ Church Ave.
French Connection filmed on West End Line and Grand Central Shuttle.
Blood & Wine (Equalizer Episode) Filmed on #1 line uptown.
Moscow on the Hudson - Filmed on the A line in Bklyn.
The Yards filmed at 207th St. Overhaul Shop
I can think of dozens more but I think you get the point. The NYCT is fairly accomodating, even to the extent of issuing GOs to facilitate filming. Of course it's a matter of cost, too. GOs cost money. SO does setting up a train for a movie. During the filming of Jurassic Park II, we spent 3 nights preparing the 4 cars for that scene that lasted under 1 minute.
To continue:
Some movies such as Money Train and Die Hard III use both, actual subway stations and sound stage footage. Of course Money Train also had the famous car that was built at Coney Island Overhaul Shop.
I think what I'm trying to say is that, yes, it is a question of money but more-over it's also a question of what the director wants based on his/her familiarity with the NYCT system
I think what I'm trying to say is that, yes, it is a question of money but more-over it's also a question of what the director wants based on his/her familiarity with the NYCT system.
Spending large amounts of money on authenticity is wasted on most movie-goers, few of whom are likely to be familiar with the system.
I would use the "PI" method. Film in real stations between 1 and 3 AM with out GO's or even city filming permits. Heck, if you go down to the Rockaways you'll probably have the entire train to yourself.
'Pi," huh? Now THAT was a very strange movie. And, for a film that won a directing award at the Sundance Festival, it has TONS of continuity errors - in the subway scenes, of course.
For example: Our hero is waiting for a train at 47th-50th Streets, when he sees someone strange on the opposite platform. He runs up the stairs, across the mezzanine, and down - to the SINGLE platform at 15th Street/Prospect Park!! (Anyone who can travel that fast doesn't need the subway.)
There weren't tonnes of continuity errors, there were a few and he admits them on the DVD commentary. They had no other choice as one subway location provided them w/ some needed elements and another location provided them w/ others. Remember, they were working w/o permits and whatnot.
'Pi," huh? Now THAT was a very strange movie. And, for a film that won a directing award at the Sundance Festival, it has TONS of continuity errors - in the subway scenes, of course.
For example: Our hero is waiting for a train at 47th-50th Streets, when he sees someone strange on the opposite platform. He runs up the stairs, across the mezzanine, and down - to the SINGLE platform at 15th Street/Prospect Park!! (Anyone who can travel that fast doesn't need the subway.)
The film crew started out at 47th-50th, but had to go elsewhere when the station started getting too crowded. Why they went to 15th Street, I don't know for sure. Someone in the crew might have been familiar with that station and suggested it as a place that would be suitably uncrowded.
As the scene in question is basically a hallucination, the change in stations isn't too terrible a blooper. Not like the whoppers in "Money Train."
and consider the following,
man runs toward a DC Metro stairway, starts down,...cut to shot from station fare mezzanine--its BALTIMORE. The movie takes place in DC, but Balto doesn't run Sundays, so much easier to film. And since 99% of the moviegoers won't notice or care, its just as good. Typically there is a specific crew member responsible for scouting and lining up the locations including permissions, equipment, fees, etc.
Of course, that Baltimore option doesn't exist any longer, as the Metro (aka subway) now runs 7 days a week. Unless you want to film in the middle of the night (say 2 AM) since we shut down between 1 AM and 5 AM every day.
>>> Unless you want to film in the middle of the night (say 2 AM) since we shut down between 1 AM and 5 AM every day. <<<
If you think that would bother a movie maker, you do not know the business.
Tom
I'd demand the MTA to let me go down to the LL of 42/8 and film using the whole station as is. Of course I would pay what it takes.
Take Pride,
Brian
I would use the LA subway simce it would cost $$ to move production to NYC just for a few shots.
BTW, here in DC on TV, they are airing an ad for Borders Bookstore (tag line is at the end of the commerical). It shows a typical subway station (actually in LA) with people dressed for a cold winter (wool hats, gloves, heavy coat). It must have been hot during the takes.
Then there was the music video with Alannis Morissette naked in the L.A. subway, and in the street, and just about every scene in between.
Go to www.ifilm.com and search for "Day Ferrous Buller Died", see 6688 in a short film (20minutes) all filmed at BERA (except for platform shots >G<).
Lou, I really enjoyed that film. And to think, it was filmed in 6688 at Branford. By the way, what did they do outside the windows to give that light moving in the tunnel effect? Was it filmed inside one of the Quanset Barns?
Jeff,
The filming at Branford was on Track 52.
;-) Sparky
I am not sure, this one might have been in the shop where they rocked the car with big timbers.
We have filmed on 52 as well using lights with maksed columns and they swing the lights past the window, then down on the ground back to the other end and past the window over and over.
They have also put normal light bulbs on a wire and pulled them past the car.
We also mounted a generator to the end of the car and run up and down the line at night.
It is amazing what the film companies come up with and I enjoy watching the whole process or operating the car >G<.
I'd film on the S shuttle. (42nd Street)
It closes at midnight and reopens at 6 am.
If you see "King og New York" with Christopher Walken, he gets on a
S shuttle at Times Square and shots a detective, only to to killed himself.
The R-33 set (9150-9151-9152-9153) incorrectly has signs that read "7", but is filmed at Times Square on the S shuttle.
Anyway, if I were the director, Toronto?: NO WAY!!
I'd film late at night or build a carefully modelled set or at a similar location.
I am not going to get into any personal debates over the so called offer by MTA NYC Transit here on SubTalk. I am going to have my say and am not interested in positive or negative responses. I ain't reading them! Don't E mail me either! The anti, out of the closet transit worker bashers will be on this board for the next week, out there in full force in many cases calling us unproductive while they make their postings not on their own free time, but on the time that they are getting paid by their employers to be doing something else. Who's unproductive now? How much productivity do they want out of the train crews? An IRT crew on the 1 or 6 goes downtown, around the loop, then back uptown, arrives late (always on paper they're on time), barely has time to take a piss, then gets on the next train for another 2 hour trip. I don't call this unproductive. What about the bus driver on the B13 who after a trip that's scheduled to take 72 minutes has less than 5 minutes to stretch his legs if he's on time, now it's time to do it again. Is he unproductive? The TA thinks so. The TA is never satisfied. Then they offer 0-0-0. Yet between 1996 and 2001, by the TA's own figures, the passenger to worker ratio has gone up yearly from less than 4200 to over 5000. Yet they want more productivity. What am I missing here? To add insult to injury, the TA financial offer isn't even revenue neutral, it will cost the employee money. For example, pension. The TA wants the union to agree to ask Albany to reinstitute the 2.3% employee pension liability, to have higher presciption drug co-payments and other stuff. The TA has the gall to say they have no money. But they have plenty of money to advertise on TV, plenty of money to produce a TV show, plenty of money to tell us what a great job we do in their employee newsletter which is always late in publication dates. It's expensive to live in this town for us family people. Auto, house and apartment insurance as well as taxes are going up. We are supposed to take home less pay from the TA and have to pay more property taxes to Major Gloomberg. A couple of hundred bucks is just a bottle of dinner wine for him, but it's a lot of money to the average working stiff with the higher tax bill. Rents will go up because the landlord has higher overhead. Transit workers are blue collar middle class citizens pure and simple. We will not accept this trashy proposal from the TA. Why are they doing this? Because they know damn well that there is no incentive to bargain in good faith with the Taylor Law on their side as well as other penalties convenienty being made up as the politicos go along. Don't tell us that if we don't like it quit. This employee vs. management senario will not go away, just the name of the employee will. I can go on and on and on but this post is too long already. After this is all over, I want all TA employees to remember the disdain the TA has for us in making this proposal. Refuse to participate in rodeos. Refuse to participate in employee recognition programs, even if they throw you a bone by offering you the day off with pay. Refuse those little recogniton pins for whatever thing the TA is celebrating. Remember how important the TA says you are as an employee relative to this insulting proposal. And please don't touch the NY POst, except to place it in the garbage can in the course of your daily duties.
Bill, couldn't agree with you more. People voted for a national futtbucking, and they GOT what they voted for. What's even worse is those who didn't bother at all. Not that there's a thing I can do to help now, but wanted to let you and the other folks who work for a living know that I support all of you, whatever happens. Some of us know what it's like "down there." :(
While it's certainly true that there is a Republican administration in place at many levels, one must still respect the laws of the land, regardless of what one thinks of the lawmakers. The Taylor Law is still the law of New York State, and even if one finds it disdainful, one must obey it, albeit grudgingly. To not do so lowers the offender to the same status as those complained about in other posts. What separates the decent people in society from the animals is the Rule of Law, and not all laws are popular.
Until the Taylor Law is rescinded it must be respected. Those that do not must then answer to the People--the citizentry who elect our leaders--and I, for one, give no solace to lawbreakers. Yes, when I get a speeding ticket I pay it. I don't like the law, and if I violate it and I'm caught, I pay up and take my lumps.
And while we're being political about this, where are our Liberal Democrat senators, Chuckie and The Witch? I've yet to hear one peep out of either of these two. My guess is they know when to side with the Unions and when to take a vacation or talk about anything else.
If the Taylor Law is of such importance and is so odious, then work to change it in the coming years. Better still, work to encourage your Union to make contract proposals that can be paid for by a city that may be on the brink of financial collapse. Finally, if you are indeed totally disgusted with what you are facing, then take the chance of seeing what you'll be offered in the private sector for similar skills (perhaps in the transportation industry or eslewhere). There is always a shortage of truckers, and most of my friends in that industry would give their eye teeth for the benefits that today's NYC Transit personnel receives. Ditto for many railroads.
BTW, I am neither a Republican nor Democrat. I'm a permanent resident of the US, but not a citizen, therefore I can't vote, nor am I a member of any political party.
-pjd
Well, if I worked for the MTA, I sure as heck would take any cool pins they give me. I could sell them on Ebay and show the TA who ends up on top. And if they want to give me the day off to go to a rodeo, awesome! I'm so there! In conclusion, if life gives you a bowl of apples, make apple juice, not hard cider.
No disrespect intended, but this is your typical Paturkey farm SHAFTING of "welfare clients" public employees. I've whined and moaned about why I got out of the Paturkey farm back in 1995 because I'd had enough of the demeaning, nasty treatment of politicos and the public. Working for the state (MTA is just another state agency) is begging to get kicked in the teeth and dissed. The morale among public employees statewide has never been lower, and it just doesn't pay to work for the "public" any longer. That's why I bailed.
The offer here is just downright unfair in my opinion - and I've been through the Paturkey hatchet-slinging before with zero increases - anyone who was with the state when he came in can tell you about that, worse than Harey-Carey. And while the law prohibits a strike, and REALLY screws those who take part in one (or a "rules action" seen as a "slowdown"), I can't say I blame ANYONE for saying enough is enough.
And sucking up to Missuh Plantation master won't buy you squat and just so's ya know, it's ILLEGAL to sell "state property" ranging from "awards" to "refuse out of the dumpster" ... I know a few people that went to JAIL for selling trinkets on eBay just because of the spite of some managers on a power trip.
I've been staying VERY quiet here because I don't want to stir the pot (nor end up on the top ten hit parade of posters again) but the TWU folks are getting a dry hump with coarse grit here, plain and simple. Working for the taxpayers ***IS*** a waste of time. :(
(No disrespect intended, but this is your typical Paturkey farm SHAFTING of ("welfare clients") public employees.)
Yes, the right does seem to have hit on public employees as the new "enemy of the people." I was wondering what they would do given that the welfare rolls have dropped two-thirds and we still have a budget crisis. Who to blame? Can't blame people who vote Republican. Have to come up with someone else.
By the way, I don't think the 0,0,0 contract was any more insulting than the 8,8,8 contract. Neither shows much regard for reality. I guess no one wants to face reality.
I *did* provide a lecture on "those who would vote for those who promise the greatest 'largesse' from the public treasury" ... but HEY! We can solve EVERYBODY'S problem here on subtalk! ANOTHER tax cut for that great "trickle down" feeling and let's fire some MORE workers for a greater productivity increase in MDBF per hominid. MOST amusing about what's BEEn coming and what's about to come is THIS recession, we're lobbing off the heads of college-educated SUBURBANITES in this wave of "trickle-down." Used to be those pesky union-label factory type individuals, not "white collar" ...
As the Japanese promised, "may you live in INTERESTING times." I know *I* feel safer ... and it's a DAMNED shame. Once upon a time, I took GREAT pride on putting my 24/7 life in the SERVICE of the taxpayer, PROUD to EARN my check as a "civil servant." If I was still doing that now, I'd feel the need to slip the taxpayer the high hard one. Fortunately for my OWN sanity, I hit the silk in 1995, and now get paid DIRECTLY by the public for the software I write and the support I provide when they need it. Folks pay me for software, they approach me often with contempt and bile, but once I get their problem(s) solved and make them happy, I get the RESPECT from those I've helped that just doesn't come from the public when you're a "public employee" ...
THAT is what I just can't get over - how so many people went to work for the TAXPAYER, intending not only to give the public their VERY best, but to be PROUD to be a "servant" of the public only to be SHIT upon ... if THIS is the mentality of the public though, for people who ensure their safety, get them to work SAFELY every day, and then crap all over those people who make things work, then perhaps the public deserves what's to come. You CAN'T have services unless you PAY for them. You either pay now, or you stick your children with the bill.
I've always been a conservative individual and believe FIRMLY in "pay as you go." We had a drunken orgy and now the hotel dick's at the door demanding payment. TWU and many other state workers have PAID with their lives, their blood and their souls. PAY them ... if the fare's going to $2.00 to make up for LOTTO losses, then let's put it at $2.50 and be DONE with it - folks will forget in four years just as they forgave Paturkey the last 8 .... PAY UP. The subways are about to become EVER more dangerous with potential terrorist attacks ...
DO YOU REALLY WANT TWU MEMBERS TO NOT GIVE A CRAP ... NOW?!?!?!
Think about it ... you DON'T want the subway folks to stop giving a qwap ... especially NOW ...
It's really a trade-off. Workers in the private sector generally get treated fairly well, but have low job security. In the public sector, job security's better, but workers tend to be treated paternalistically at best, like dirt at the worst. Which is better? I guess that's a matter of preference.
"By the way, I don't think the 0,0,0 contract was any more insulting than the 8,8,8 contract. Neither shows much regard for reality. I guess no one wants to face reality."
I really don't understand all the posturing and big talk going on here and elsewhere. Larry's statement hits the nail on the head. 0,0,0 was just a reaction to 8,8,8. They'll split the difference. Expect an agreement in the 3-5 range -- probably somewhere just shy of 4 (I'll predict 3.5/3.75/4).
Everything that's going on is just noise. The union wants their members to think they're fighting hard for them. But they know their support is too weak to risk a strike. I wouldn't know Roger T if he bumped into me on the street, but I have to think he's got a brain in his head to have gotten this far. Only a moron would lead his troops into an illegal strike 10 days before Christmas. Especially since his support among the rank and file seems tenuous at best.
TA Management knows 0,0,0 is lame -- it's just a set up to get down to a basic cost of living adjustment in the 3-5 range. If the union had proposed 6,6,6 then the TA would have offered 2,2,2. Management knows they have to ensure that the majority of workers still see transit as a "good job". 0,0,0 would end that -- who'd ever take a job where they'd get no raise for the next 3 years? Still, they have to talk and act tough to ensure that the Politicos further up the line can save face.
Expect little change on the benefits side -- that's all just posturing.
I can't see a strike happening. The real issues just aren't that big. Neither side has shown it's hand yet -- when they do the differences will be miniscule.
CG
I am still road extra so I get around. This 0,-2.3,0 thing REALLY changed people around. There was low volume strike talk now there is high volume talk by almost everyone.
How do you tell someone "oh we lost your pension money at the track i mean the stock market".
What looks like a cold winter also makes people feel this is more winable along with the Xmas shopping season being ruined.
(What looks like a cold winter also makes people feel this is more winable along with the Xmas shopping season being ruined.)
What exactly makes that winnable? If you actually strike for more than a day, you lose.
The first week would hurt, but the X-mas season is looking lame anyway, so businesses would love to lay everyone off and have someone else to blame. Now the question is do you hold out to try to get the city and state to swallow the Taylor Law penalties.
The next two weeks are low productivity weeks anyway. So businesses just make everyone take unpaid leave or vacation, and they don't lose much.
Now the strike is three weeks old, and the only people who have been hurt is NYC residents, who no one gives about anyway, including the public employees who commute in from the suburbs. We're all animals anyway.
From January 6th on, they'll be pressure to settle.
I'd put the odds of a strike at one-in-three, but I'm prepared to be laid off, and my wife is prepared to bed down at the office.
Now the strike is three weeks old, and the only people who have been hurt is NYC residents, who no one gives about anyway, including the public employees who commute in from the suburbs. We're all animals anyway
How are suburban private-sector commuters not to suffer as well? Driving isn't going to be an option.
(How are suburban private-sector commuters not to suffer as well? Driving isn't going to be an option.)
Silly me. I forget all about suburban commuters who drive. All I considered was that the LIRR and MetroNorth would be running!
"I'd put the odds of a strike at one-in-three, but I'm prepared to be laid off, and my wife is prepared to bed down at the office."
Put me down for 1-in-100.
Any strike wouldn't last more than a day. In the event of a strike, management will make a very public offer of 3-4% raises over the next 3 years (I'm sure they already have this budgeted). Perhaps there's even an announcement that Taylor law fines will be waived for those who report to work the next day.
In that scenario, does the union collapse/cave in? I think so. I don't think support for the new union leadership has solidified yet.
CG
Quiet frankly if any TA employee expects more then a cost of living increase with this contract they are crazy. Most employees in the private sector have been paying more health care premiums every year for a far less comprehensive package then TA employees get
From a customer's (not a TA employee) perspective, you are way off target. MTA claims they're bankrupt despite wasteful speding of useless TV, radio, newspaper ads (I don't care if it takes less than 20 minutes of Metro-North railroad from Fordham to White Plains, it still is a fast ride anyway). And they have done absolutely NOTHING, NOT A DAMM THING, in eliminating the scums who vandalize MVM's at unmanned station entrances and steal Metrocards and money from the MTA and it's customers.
Don't believe me? Then on a Sunday morning, stand at the 32nd St./Broadway mezzanine (on the Q,R and W side) of 34th St station and tell me next Monday how many machines are not working (see message on top of machine in yellow "NO BILLS ACCEPTED AT THIS TIME", a vandal just hit that machine.)
Thats not a good reason to take away the MTA laborer benifits. The private sector should get an increase in their benifits and a cost reduction.
avid
Bill, Interesting and thoughtful remarks, sorry you're not going to read any of the replys.
Got back from Japan, and Tokyo is one railfan friendly city. I just need some instructions on how to get still pictures and some digital footage showing moving passenger trains onto this website so that everybody can enjoy them as I did. by the way, the seats on the subways and commuter lines are SOFT, VELVET COVERED, and feel like a typical couch at HOME! If they were on the trains here, the local clowns would take them off the trains and either sell them or bring them home. Let me know how to get the pics posted, because the sooner you tell me, the sooner you enjoy them.
Get youself an account at a free picture hosting place, upload your photos, and bada-bing-bada-boom, you give us the link, and then we see them.
You can post pictures in Usenet (newsgroups) without anything special other than a new reader such as Agent, Outhouse Excess, etc.
The best group to post such pictures would be alt.binaries.pictures.rail
And for those who say, "Oh, the pictures will only be there a couple days..."--yes, that is true...BUT there is an archive site for the rail pictures newsgroup. It's at http://apbr2.railfan.net You can access all the rail photos from years ago in Usenet. While they don't put up the day-ro-day URL's on a daily basis (it's done at end-of-month) you CAN still get to the day-to-day ones by manually typing in the day-to-day URL's.
I *would* offer to take your photos and upload them on my web space, I have 100MB thru my school. However, the thing is that I can only access one 10MB partition out of the ten they allot me, and that one is almost full. Tech support hasn't even replyed to my email request for assistance, f***ing bastards :-)
I think it is grossly unfair. Station Agents also ahve poor work conmditions:
Many booths have no heat or air and are infested with pests of the crawling kind.
We get only 30 minutes for lunch and that is only if they do not pull our lunch relief to work some other booth. Bathroom- only during the 30 minute lunch and if our lunch is pulled hold it or call the field office and hope they will allow you to leave the booth.
Many stations such as Port Authority, 51 and Lex,53 and 5th had two people selling in the booth. Now there is one. MVMs are often down and many do not trust the MVMS or still wait in line to get change touse the MVMs since they disliek the gold dollars or the Susie B dollars given as change.
Let's say I was a paying customer-- why wait in two lines when I can just wait at the booth.
If you'll read Peggy's account on this site of a day in the life of a Station Agent, we do not sit around all day. We have paper work. people to sign in or out, authorized keys to sign in or out, Supervisors on the phone, calling towers to find out where the rtain is, dealing with emergencies, dealing with Revenue. delaing with Elevators and elevator operators (E/Os) and their problems. Andf on top of it all the customer when we don't immediatel;y give them their token when they pay with all pennies and we count their moneyoh yes, we are "ignoring them" due to an emetgency. I ahev ahd this problem: There is a legit fire in the station- I monitor scanner and hit the EBCS> WHile tlaking to the Desk, RTO comes on theh scanner giving my tation as a confirmed smoke condition and the location. Also then my fire alarm control panel goes off for a diffferent location. After hanging up, my supervisor calls , imemdiately after having called to get my alarm reset. Oh yes-= I had to ghet names and badge numbers from Police and fire and alarm service ticket number and deal with supervisor when they came to the station.
In any job, pay is based on specialized knowledge and skills needed for the job and any environmental strress factors such as dealing with money and people.
I also understand I am a public servant performing a vital service and the city would be paralyzed if the "S" word occurred. It would also put in me the difficuly positon of obeying the law and risking the wrath of co-workers who feel differently knwoing I have to work with them and they can pull strange things which can not be proved or do I join the coworkers adn riosk fines, arrest, jail and/or losing my job hoping for possibly amnesty. I have spent many sleepless days (I work nights) on this issue which I sincerely hope gets settled peacefully. I have come to a decision and must afec the consequences of whichever side I took. I wont reveal my position and wont answer e-mail on the subject and wont respond to posts ont he subject and neither will Peggy.
Whos getting ready to picket next Sunday? What locations?
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
7 more days to go..........
NYPD got a raise they dont pay medical,FDNY same thing,TEACHERS WHO TEACH ANIMALS WE CALL CHIDREN GET 14%increase.LIRR and MNRR get more but when it comes to the mostly black and latino's MTA is Broke?Want us to take Pay cut?0% over 3 years and paying medical and 2.3 % more pension =PAYCUT.We move millions of people a day but get no credit ,
9/11 we were there no credit ,now people calling us selfish saying we are civil service cant strike Taylor law.TAKE YOUR TAYLOR LAW AND SHOVE IT!!!!!! I DONT CARE IF I GET FINED 5 DAYS!! JUST AS LONG AS IT PROVES A POINT WE NEED SAFE AND HEALTHY WORK ENVIROMENT!!!!!!!
And we deserved to get what is rightfully ours WHY SHOULD LIRR C/R's get 7 dollars more an hour for the same job?ANd not pay medical ?Well I will be right next to SUBBUS with my pickett sign saying Screw everyone its time we are noticed.
And all you must remember we MOve those animals we call children 2 times a day, with their cursing ,fighting ,spitting and just plain animalistic behavior.Then turn right around with maybe 10 minute break if your lucky to go and pick up their parents who are just as nasty and violent.The nerve of some people to call Transit workers lazy HA Do any of you realize how stessfull 1 day can be? But according to you a paycut is what we deserve.So when we strike I will be the one spitting and cursing at passengers saying payback is a bitch.
Yes, until that -2.3,0,0 offer I was against a strike 100%.
By calling in every train with human waste and the cleaners using the Right to Know rules for cleaning it the trains crawl to a stand still. Just those two rules things. Trains are not supposed to leave a terminal isolated so if you bang it in they are screwed. Human waste is a hazard and should be banged in 100% of the time.
Ya know, I see why you want to strike, though you use a nasty stereotype. Not all children and teens for that matter are 'cursing, fighting, spitting and plain animalistic.' I've seen adults with that behavior as well.
I think Rush Hour mentions that in his next post.........
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
7 More Days To Go.
Huh? I don't follow
Parents being animals as well their children. Rush Hour made a two part post.
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
6 more days to go.
Ah....! Now I get it! Sorry, I'm just slow at heart! :-P
Who do you think teaches children to "cursing, fighting, apittling and plain animalistic" ?
Cursing, fighting, spitting and acting "animalistic" is natural. NOT doing these things is taught.
So the real question is: Who's NOT teaching their children not to act that way?
Maybe I should have made that "who encourages them?"
Maybe children act like convicted felons because they are treated like them?
Compulsory schooling is a form of slavery.
My history teacher made an interesting point:
"Schools and prisions are alike: You must be here"
in the old nyc days, schools really were just that. the sole role of the security guards was not to keep people out of the schools that didn't belong there, but to guard all the doors and make srue the kids didn't break out every day. - which of course just egged them on some more, to the point of climbing off a second floor balcony to the street, jumping out lunchroom windows, and the occasional 200+ vs. 1 security gurad student bum rush of the front doors. :o)
not sure if it's still like that. despite the prison atmosphere and lack of learning one damned thing, it was pretty fun...
I go to a punk school, so I wouldn't know about that.
Just remember, in a village of idiots, the man with half a brain is king! I'm really glad to see that anti-socialism has not passed you by.
Just remember, in a village of idiots, the man with half a brain is king!
All hail King Train Dude!
I'm really glad to see that anti-socialism has not passed you by.
Thank you, I pride myself in not being a socialist.
Too bad you don't fridde yourself in being an asshole - something you do very well.
Too bad you don't pride yourself in being an asshole - something you do very well.
Too bad you don't pride yourself in being an asshole - something you do very well.
I could take pride in that, but then I'd always be in second place. Nothing can beat your winning streak in that arena!
Just curious - if you're so unhappy, why not get another job?
Now really isn't the time when people can just up and switch jobs without much pain.
This isn't 1999.
Apply for a job at the LIRR. Nobosy is stoping you.
Health care costs have gone up 10-15% this year and are expected to go up another 23% next year - NYTIMES
A 0% salary increase without heathcare contribution is in fact a raise
Yeah but they're not even willing to give that. I have heard fellow coworkers say that they'd go without a raise if the halthcare benefits improved even slightly... but the TA wants to cut salary and benefits at the same time.
So a 0% raise, paying into the pension and paying significantly for benefits hurts a lot.
I work for a healthcare consulting company, in fact, I think our company consults for the TWU Fund Office.
Whereas I won't get into issues concerning whether a raise is needed or not, I'll give some facts about current healthcare and expected costs.
Back in 1995-1999, health care medical costs were increasing at approximately 8% annually. Today, they have been revised to 14-16%. Prescription drugs used to account for a 15% annual increase, that is now 20-22%.
Picket locations should be announced later this week. When that is announced then we'll know who'll be standing on them.
Second and last comment on all this (I made comments already on Bill's thread, sold separately) ... you guys and gals are getting the high hard one here, as I had warned before the elections. I sure HOPE that there will be some wisdom here and that only OFF-DUTY TWU people are on those picket lines. Paturkey intends to use his "aren't you glad you're a republican?" mentality to NAIL anyone who walks off the job, AND anyone who is accused of a "slowdown" or "rules action." Just wanted to warn once again to anyone who still respects my coffee-smelling ability.
Most folks haven't taken the time to read the "Homeland Security Act" nor the "Patriot Act" but I can assure you, there's draconian methods waiting on the sidelines for anyone who wishes to engage in "economic terrorism" by being a "union type individual" ... and once January rolls around and the next "Congrefs" meets, it's going to get a WHOLE lot worse as far as unions go. Be CAREFUL what you folks do out there however it turns out. Your traditional "protections" ARE NO MORE.
And SHAME on the TWU for not negotiating EARLY while there was still an election looming ... now that it's over, "no soup for you" like NYPD, FD and others got. It's not unlawful to have a contract BEFORE expiration, something everyone might want to consider as far as the TWU leadership goes when elections come around. :(
[...AND anyone who is accused of a "slowdown" or "rules action."]
Wait a minute. I thought a "rules action" (or "rulebook slowdown") involved FOLLOWING the rules, albeit more strictly than usual. How can compliance with the rules be prosecuted?
Besides, I've heard that some parts of the system actually run BETTER under a "rules action" than under normal conditions!
Depends on how "administration" considers it. The Taylor law makes it illegal to even SAY "we should strike." I offer paragraph 210, the rest of it is just as potentially onerous, and guess who gets to decide what's a violation and what isn't? When TWU went after the private bus companies, that was one thing. The Transit Authority is an "essential service" and is quite a different animal, assuming that the politicos decide to "get tough" ... here's just one piece of Article 14 of the Civil Service Law to give you an idea of how nasty management can get if they WANT to ...
210 and 211 are the criticals ... bear in mind that it's a violation of the Taylor law to even say "we should GO on strike, I'm pissed ..."
§210
Prohibition of Strikes
1. No public employee or employee organization shall engage in a strike, and no public employee or employee
organization shall cause, instigate, encourage, or condone a strike.
2. Violations and penalties; presumption; prohibition against consent to strike; determination; notice; probation;
payroll deductions; objections; and restoration. (a) Violations and penalties. A public employee shall violate this
subdivision by engaging in a strike or violating paragraph (c) of this subdivision and shall be liable as provided in
this subdivision pursuant to the procedures contained herein. In addition, any public employee who violates
subdivision one of this section may be subject to removal or other disciplinary action provided by law for
misconduct.
(b) Presumption. For purposes of this subdivision an employee who is absent from work without permission, or
who abstains wholly or in part from the full performance of his duties in his normal manner without permission, on
the date or dates when a strike occurs, shall be presumed to have engaged in such strike on such date or dates.
(c) Prohibition against consent to strike. No person exercising on behalf of any public employer any authority,
supervision or direction over any public employee shall have the power to authorize, approve, condone or consent
to a strike, or the engaging in a strike, by one or more public employees, and such person shall not authorize,
approve, condone or consent to such strike or engagement.
(d) Determination. In the event that it appears that a violation of this subdivision may have occurred, the chief
executive officer of the government involved shall, on the basis of such investigation and affidavits as he may deem
appropriate, determine whether or not such violation has occurred and the date or dates of such violation. If the
chief executive officer determines that such violation has occurred, he shall further determine, on the basis of such
further investigation and affidavits as he may deem appropriate, the names of employees who committed such
violation and the date or dates thereof. Such determination shall not be deemed to be final until the completion of
the procedures provided for in this subdivision.
(e) Notice. The chief executive officer shall forthwith notify each employee that he has been found to have
committed such violation, the date or dates thereof and of his right to object to such determination pursuant to
paragraph (g) of this subdivision; he shall also notify the chief fiscal officer of the names of all such employees and
of the total number of days, or part thereof, on which it has been determined that such violation occurred. Notice
to each employee shall be by personal service or by certified mail to his last address filed by him with his
employer.
(f) Payroll deductions. Not earlier than thirty nor later than ninety days following the date of such determination,
the chief fiscal officer of the government involved shall deduct from the compensation of each such public
employee an amount equal to twice his daily rate of pay for each day or part thereof that it was determined that he
had violated this subdivision; such rate of pay to be computed as of the time of such violation. In computing such
deduction, credit shall be allowed for amounts already withheld from such employee's compensation on account
of his absence from work or other withholding of services on such day or days. In computing the aforesaid thirty
to ninety day period of time following the determination of a violation pursuant to subdivision (d) of paragraph two
of this section and where the employee's annual compensation is paid over a period of time which is less than
fifty-two weeks, that period of time between the last day of the last payroll period of the employment term in
which the violation occurred and the first day of the first payroll period of the next succeeding employment term
shall be disregarded and not counted.
(g) Objections and restoration. Any employee determined to have violated this subdivision may object to such
determination by filing with the chief executive officer, (within twenty days of the date on which notice was served
or mailed to him pursuant to paragraph (e) of this subdivision) his sworn affidavit, supported by available
documentary proof, containing a short and plain statement of the facts upon which he relies to show that such
determination was incorrect. Such affidavit shall be subject to the penalties of perjury. If the chief executive
officer shall determine that the affidavit and supporting proof establishes that the employee did not violate this
subdivision, he shall sustain the objection. If the chief executive officer shall determine that the affidavit and
supporting proof fails to establish that the employee did not violate this subdivision, he shall dismiss the objection
and so notify the employee. If the chief executive officer shall determine that the affidavit and supporting proof
raises a question of fact which, if resolved in favor of the employee, would establish that the employee did not
violate this subdivision, he shall appoint a hearing officer to determine whether in fact the employee did violate this
subdivision after a hearing at which such employee shall bear the burden of proof. If the hearing officer shall
determine that the employee failed to establish that he did not violate this subdivision, the chief executive officer
shall so notify the employee. If the chief executive officer sustains an objection or the hearing officer determines on
a preponderance of the evidence that such employee did not violate this subdivision, the chief executive officer
shall forthwith notify the chief fiscal officer who shall thereupon cease all further deductions and refund any
deductions previously made pursuant to this subdivision. The determinations provided in this paragraph shall be
reviewable pursuant to article seventy-eight of the civil practice law and rules.
3.(a) An employee organization which is determined by the board to have violated the provisions of subdivision
one of this section shall, in accordance with the provisions of this section, lose the rights granted pursuant to the
provisions of paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section two hundred eight of this chapter.
(b) In the event that it appears that a violation of subdivision one of this section may have occurred, it shall be the
duty of the chief executive officer of the public employer involved (i) forthwith to so notify the board and the chief
legal officer of the government involved, and (ii) to provide the board and such chief legal officer with such
facilities, assistance and data as will enable the board and such chief legal officer to carry out their duties under this
section.
(c) In the event that it appears that a violation of subdivision one of this section may have occurred, the chief legal
officer of the government involved, or the board on its own motion, shall forthwith institute proceedings before the
board to determine whether such employee organization has violated the provisions of subdivision one of this
section.
(d) Proceedings against an employee organization under this section shall be commenced by service upon it of a
written notice, together with a copy of the charges. A copy of such notice and charges shall also be served, for
their information, upon the appropriate government officials who recognize such employee organization and grant
to it the rights accompanying such recognition. The employee organization shall have eight days within which to
serve its written answer to such charges. The board's hearing shall be held promptly thereafter and at such
hearing, the parties shall be permitted to be represented by counsel and to summon witnesses in their behalf.
Compliance with the technical rules of evidence shall not be required.
(e) In determining whether an employee organization has violated subdivision one of this section, the board shall
consider (i) whether the employee organization called the strike or tried prevent it, and (ii) whether the employee
organization made or was making good faith efforts to terminate the strike.
(f) If the board determines that an employee organization has violated the provisions of subdivision one of this
section, the board shall order forfeiture of the rights granted pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (b) of
subdivision one, and subdivision three of section two hundred eight of this chapter, for such specified period of
time as the board shall determine, or, in the discretion of the board, for an indefinite period of time subject to
restoration upon application, with notice to all interested parties, supported by proof of good faith compliance
with the requirements of subdivision one of this section since the date of such violation, such proof to include, for
example, the successful negotiation, without a violation of subdivision one of this section, of a contract covering
the employees in the unit affected by such violation; provided, however, that where a fine imposed on an
employee organization pursuant to subdivision two of section seven hundred fifty-one of the judiciary law remains
wholly or partly unpaid, after the exhaustion of the cash and securities of the employee organization, the board
shall direct that, notwithstanding such forfeiture, such membership dues deduction shall be continued to the extent
necessary to pay such fine and such public employer shall transmit such moneys to the court. In fixing the duration
of the forfeiture, the board shall consider all the relevant facts and circumstances, including but not limited to: (i)
the extent of any willful defiance of subdivision one of this section (ii) the impact of the strike on the public health,
safety, and welfare of the community and (iii) the financial resources of the employee organization; and the board
may consider (i) the refusal of the employee organization or the appropriate public employer or the representative
thereof, to submit to the mediation and fact-finding procedures provided in section two hundred nine and (ii)
whether, if so alleged by the employee organization, the appropriate public employer or its representatives
engaged in such acts of extreme provocation as to detract from the responsibility of the employee organization for
the strike. In determining the financial resources of the employee organization, the board shall consider both the
income and the assets of such employee organization. In the event membership dues are collected by the public
employer as provided in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section two hundred eight of this chapter, the books
and records of such public employer shall be prima facie evidence of the amount so collected.
(g) An employee organization whose rights granted pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (b) of subdivision one,
and subdivision three of section two hundred eight of this article have been order [sic] forfeited pursuant to this
section may be granted such rights after the termination of such forfeiture only after complying with the provisions
of clause (b) of subdivision three of section two hundred seven of this article.
(h) No compensation shall be paid by a public employer to a public employee with respect to any day or part
thereof when such employee is engaged in a strike against such employer. The chief fiscal officer of the
government involved shall withhold such compensation upon receipt of the notice provided by paragraph (e) of
subdivision two of section two hundred ten; notwithstanding the failure to have received such notice, no public
employee or officer having knowledge that such employee has so engaged in such a strike shall deliver or caused
[sic] to be delivered to such employee any cash, check or payment which, in whole or in part, represents such
compensation.
4. Within sixty days of the termination of a strike, the chief executive officer of the government involved shall
prepare and make public a report in writing, which shall contain the following information: (a) the circumstances
surrounding the commencement of the strike, (b) the efforts used to terminate the strike, (c) the names of those
public employees whom the public officer or body had reason to believe were responsible for causing, instigating
or encouraging the strike and (d) related to the varying degrees of individual responsibility, the sanctions imposed
or proceedings pending against each such individual public employee.
This sounds like the applicable paragraph...
"210.2(b) Presumption. For purposes of this subdivision an employee who is absent from work without permission, or who abstains wholly or in part from the full performance of his duties in his normal manner without permission, on the date or dates when a strike occurs, shall be presumed to have engaged in such strike on such date or dates."
In other words: If the "normal manner" of operation involves bending or breaking the rules, then FOLLOWING the rules would be construed as engaging in a strike. Would that actually hold up in court?
It just shows that management has you coming or going. You don't follow the rules, you are in trouble; you do follow the rules, you are in trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazing
Or Guily until proven innocent.
Or guilty if proven innocent.
Rule number one as a state employee - GET IT IN WRITING. Verbal instruction has NO meaning. That's why there's G2's to turn verbal exchanges INTO written instruction. So if a bulletin or a directive is issued in writing that circumvents other instructions in writing, you must follow the most recent "in writing" even if it conflicts with other writing and have only the right to "grieve" the changes. Of course if you file a grievance, that creates a brand new can of worms that you're permitted to eat in the cab.
It's a FINE sausage. :(
If you file a grieveance, make sure the newly written bulletin isn't dated before the incident began.
Makes we wonder which written instruction you're supposed to follow if 2 contriduct each other?
Heh. The answer to that one is "the most recent" (and be SURE to possess a copy!) ... calling supervision for a conclusion can be considered "insubordination" ... one of the BIGGEST problems in public employment is the capability of one single beakie on a "mission from God" to circumvent upper management until they're snagged. And I don't know WHAT it is about government employment, but it tends to attract the meanest sum'bitches you've ever met as supervision. We used to refer to them as "trolls" ...
But there's your answer. A written directive has the force of law, even if it demands that you smack trains into the wall - you just DO it until superceded by a new memo. :(
You NOW see why I refer to our "sausage crafters" as the trade they really are. The answer is *YES* ... if you do a "rulebook" action by STRICTLY following the written rules instead of what you're told by stupidvision, they you ARE striking! Ain't that something? And guess who gets to DECIDE if you are or aren't "striking?" Even that TSS on the corner qualifies as "supervision" ...
What are your rights as a state employee? None. What are your rights on the Paturkey farm? Even less. Paturkey already has called up the State National Guard and State Police. If anyone walks, it'll be a short work to jail as he's been telling us up here. :(
[The answer is *YES* ... if you do a "rulebook" action by STRICTLY following the written rules instead of what you're told by stupidvision, they you ARE striking!]
In other words, supervisors could "set up" a subordinate just by ordering him/her to break a rule? Oy!
It's been done. Is it "business as usual?" No ... but it CAN be done. This is the reason why any employee needs to have changes in WRITING from any PREVIOUS instructions in writing. If it ain't in writing, and the check doesn't clear twice, color it bogus. Those have always been the watchwords in civil service. VERBAL instructions DO NOT COUNT. That's how some folks have gotten fooled. State service is the penultimate game of "Simon Says" ... I'm not kidding.
TWU needs to acquire a WRITTEN policy, approved by management as to what to *DO* in such a situation, then you follow THAT written policy. Bottom line though, follow the WRITTEN policy under the assumption that if a WRITTEN bulletin supercedes the rulebook, then the BULLETIN applies.
First: Every employee is required to have a rule book and be familiar with it.
Second: Every employee should have a copy of the contract and be familiar with it.
Third: Why would a supervisor 'set up' an employee? They have no incentive to do so.
If an employee knows the rules and plays by the book - they never step on their own toes.
IMPORTANT ... just because I'm telling you guys what I know and where to look, and showing how BAD this can be if the state wants to play hardball (it IS a repub administration after all) don't forget, I'm ON YOUR SIDE here having once been UMD TWU 100 myself and a former state worker (until I got tired of being Paturkeyed myself) ... I'm not playing the right wing side here, just trying to indicate how powerless state employees are when push comes to shove. The current GOP philosophy both nationally and statewide wants to see unions made illegal. This ain't the Lindsay administration that would cave. :(
IMPORTANT ... just because I'm telling you guys what I know and where to look, and showing how BAD this can be if the state wants to play hardball (it IS a repub administration after all) don't forget, I'm ON YOUR SIDE here
I don't think that you stated the law means you're on the other side here. There of course needs to be a voice of reason, someone to tell the folks what they're getting into. I for one as a TWU 100 member appreciate it because the union itself hasn't disclosed the full facts, as far as what we're getting into and what the penalties are. It really is a shame that a lot of people I have come in contact with that feel we MUST strike don't want to hear the facts, don't "care" for the consequenes. Just yesturday I ran into 2 people at 149/GC who had a copy of the Taylor Law on them and had a more objective view.
Fortunately we need more of those people. Because one side saying "we're going to strike" and the other side basically saying "I dare you" isn't going to get much done.
I know a copy of the Taylor Law is posted on the Union Bulletin Board at 242.
Simply put, if 30 or 40 people from one work-unit call in sick, even if they follow proper procedures for making timely 'sick calls', they may be held in violation of the Taylor Law - if the MTA can convince a judge.
Assuming there are cooler heads at both sides of the table this week, the strike should be averted.
"Assuming there are cooler heads at both sides of the table this week, the strike should be averted."
We've all seen this way too many times before. This time it just seems blatantly obvious. There will be much more chest-beating by both sides over the next few days. At least one side will be accused of not bargaining in "good faith" (as if either sides first proposal represents anything resembling good faith)
Then there will be an all-night bargaining session at the deadline which will result in a settlement (probably coming about 2 hours past the deadline -- so you can have the traditional "We're Making Progress - so we won't strike" press conference just in time for the 11:00 news).
The issue at hand is $$$$ - in the form of annual base salary adjustments. Everything else is just a bargaining chip. Union demands 8% - absurd. Management offers just less than 0% - ridiculous. The middle ground is 3-4% roughly what just about every other working schmo in the country is getting these days.
There will be slight changes via tradeoffs to work rules and health benefits - so that each side can report "victory" back to their bosses.
Anyone who's looking for a settlement anytime in advance of the deadline needs only to look to the incentives of the negotiators - if you settle early you appear to have caved in to the other side. The union can't afford the appearance of having caved in, and with taxes going up left and right the TA can't afford the perception of having been overly generous.
I just don't see the issue here that could galvanize the union into striking. Sure, if managements offer was a firm 0% and they didn't budge - that would do it. But the 0% was just a volley.
CG
The issue at hand is $$$$ - in the form of annual base salary adjustments. Everything else is just a bargaining chip. Union demands 8% - absurd. Management offers just less than 0% - ridiculous. The middle ground is 3-4% roughly what just about every other working schmo in the country is getting these days.
The sign of a good settlement is one that leaves both sides unhappy. Hopefully that's what we will have.
(The issue at hand is $$$$ - in the form of annual base salary adjustments. Everything else is just a bargaining chip. Union demands 8% - absurd. Management offers just less than 0% - ridiculous. The middle ground is 3-4% roughly what just about every other working schmo in the country is getting these days.)
Just for the record, as a non-rep TA analyst I received a one percent raise last year. I expect nothing this year. Lots of my neighbors in the private sector are out of work, none are getting raises, though they did better in the boom. As a civil servant, my highest inflation-adjusted salary was in 1988. I've been promoted twice since then, and received a seven percent bonus raise (back when they had such things in NYC).
I might also point out that since the 1995 change, requiring anyone who joins the pension to contribute nearly six percent of their pay, the present value of the pension (net of what you kick in and what it could have earned in a 401K) is pretty close to zero. The pension fund is broke in part due to a big pension enhancement they put through for those already retired with much more generous "Lindsay-era" pensions. So expect the pension plan to become even worse for those of us born after 1960 -- kind of like Social Security, which gets "saved" every twenty years.
The people who got over have taken their winnings and left. Those who will still be here in ten years are the losers.
[Just for the record, as a non-rep TA analyst....]
According to one union demand, TWU-100 already represents YOUR title, as well as all other non-represented non-managers.
Hopefully there will be a middle ground so a strike can be averted. So far, the MTA and the union are continents apart.
#3 West End Jeff
But Kev, TWU went to the tables almost a month earlier than usual. This offer from Management represents their FIRST offer - almost ten weeks after negotiations started.
Yeah, I was aware of that. But look at what 1199 did. Granted, they'll get screwed in the end but look what they got by playing the game. Roger was too busy bashing busses at the time and apparently doesn't know how to play politics properly. I just hope that with the strike vote in, he doesn't play the card I think he's going to. For YOUR sakes. Private bus companies can't do much to fight back. A *STATE* looking for a scapegoat however can be vicious indeed. :(
I was there yesterday for the AM meeting. I have never seen such a show of solidarity.
The workers are apparently tired of bad contracts, bad conditions, and the terrible disciplinary system that badly needs an overhaul.
And what was the deal with their proposal? No raise the first year, and for the second and third years a raise based on productivity?
How do you get more productivity from a conductor or a train operator? A C/R and T/O does his two, three, four, or five trips on his line and goes home. It's not like working in an office in a white collar job where you can say "produce more and you'll get a bonus." What do you tell a crew who does three trips on the C, or five trips on the L or 7, or four trips on the J, or two trips on the 2, to produce more when 90% of the job is on the train?
At the meeting, I listened in disbelief as Toussaint stated that they researched every company in the United States and could not find one whose diciplinary system matched NYCT's. Even more disturbing was when he asked everyone in the room that had been written up to stand if they had ever been written up on. More than 3/4 of the room stood! Amazing!
Hopefully, management will be able to come to their senses. . . and SOON. Now's the time to start 'round the clock talks, and not wait until December 14th. The workers are not playing anymore, and the union is not the same as it was back in 1999. And if they don't hurry up and realize this, they just might find out the hard way on the 16th.
Thanks for the report. I hope TA come to their senses. And Mayor Doomberg, well all I can say that he rides the 6 in the morning......
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
7 More Days To Go.
Just as long as he stays away on the PM's.
I know I can count on you..........
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
7 More Days to Go.
Hey, maybe he'll get the message if he gets his coat tails stuck in a set of R-62 doors...:)
Well the 6 have the R142a's with the heavier doors.........
Is #6 ALL R-142's? I think I got the line confused with the 4 (I knew it was one of those even numbers). Mike you should know I'm really an alphabet kinda guy anyhow...LOL! :)
For RTO members, there would be no productivity raises since the majority of jobs already work the crews to the bone.
What do they want? 6 trips on the L? Or do they want us to make sure that our trains run on time so that at the end of the year, the on-time percentage has to be X% in order to get a raise? Could you imagine that one too many BIE's could mean no raise for you?
That's my point exactly. There's no such thing as increasing productivity for a road crew. That was just a big joke.
Z, you know it's a paper railroad. Trains can come in late and still be clocked as on time so the higher-ups can look good, so that's not an issue.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if toilets were installed in the cabs so that there'd be no need for us to leave the train at all. There's some productivity.
>>>>>>>>>>Z, you know it's a paper railroad. Trains can come in late and still be clocked as on time so the higher-ups can look good, so that's not an issue.
Of course it would be an issue, but not exactly in the way you would think.
WHAT IF the TA encouraged that the sheets be kept truthfully so that if a train came in 6 minutes late, it would be marked 6 minutes late? Mind you it's a huge if, but by doing so it would give the TA ammo by saying that because the on-time goal for RTO wasn't met, the raise to be given to the hourlies will be lower than expected? It would actually give the TA an incentive to run trains a little late. Or would they determine "productivity" by the amount of annual lost-time employee injuries? Who knows.
I know that I am really far out here, so you don't have to let me know about it.
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not aware as to whether this practice actually goes on but I'm not following this line of reasoning. Whether or not the line management is cooking the books should not be a concern of the train operators or conductors. Of course, I'm open to learning something. Please explain to me how calling a late train, "ON TIME" should affect contract negotiations.....
It seems to me that the three top issues in this contract negotiation are:
1) Wages
2) Health Care
3) Disciplinary procedures.
Why are you so concerned with line management?
The TA wants to give raises based on productivity. I was using on-time performance as a base (albeit possibly far-fetched) idea on how "productivity" would be calculated if the TA were to receive this concession (they won't IMO, but I was entertaining this option anyway).
How in the world can an RTO hourly worker increase productivity when most of us already work until we're spent? How can we justify a cause for a raise under this reasoning?
As far as line management goes, I could care less what they do as long as they don't cheat me out of rightfully gained wages.
When the TA talks of productivity in RTO, they are more likely referring to cab-time per shift, OPTO, and flexibility in scheduling. These are legitimate issues for management and TWU to hash out in the name of productivity.
When the TA talks of productivity in RTO, they are more likely referring to cab-time per shift, OPTO, and flexibility in scheduling. These are legitimate issues for management and TWU to hash out in the name of productivity.
I don't remember many of the specifics but there are copies of the TA's counteroffer floating around, and if you manage to get the complete set, it mentions what they mean by productivity enhancements. Mostly it covers Train Operators (i.e. Adding Level I and II, the more level II work done, the higher the productivity) and Station Cleaners (fixing light fixtures, paint work, among other things).
Speaking of which: the eternal debate of when a train actually arrives and even more importantly the calculation of a late clear. It seems everybody in this world who gets paid by the hour is on their way out the door at finishing time. Except the motorman and conductor. Finishing time should not be when the dispatcher clocks you in, which is when the train passes the office at best, and even there, in order to show the train on time they put you in before you actually arrive to show the on time performance being better than what it actually is. We should be paid up till the time we walk out of that cab. Because up to that time you are still working! There is a sizable time difference, when all the working days in the year are added up. By the time you come in at less than 10 MPH, perhaps having to key by signals, remove handles and lock the cab door after you fight with it to close and lock because it is heavily vandalised and out of allignment, there is a 3 minute time difference at best. And if you hit the homeball or bumper block does that count since your train has already been clocked in? That 5 minute sign out time is eaten up before you get off the train!
Easy solution remove the human supervisor from the job of writing down what time trains reach their terminal. Impliment a simple system to track trains as the enter and leave terminals.
I can think of a number of ways to impliment this system with minimal effort
The TA looks like it suffers from a big case of too many middle managers with nothing else to do but get on the line workers backs to justify thier jobs. it's time the TA does what most fortune 500 compainies did 20 years ago which was to use technology to replace do little middle managers and better keep track of what thier busisness is actually doing.
If a train is late, its late. Without acurate statistics on train arrivals how can management accurate schedule trains and buses.
"The TA looks like it suffers from a big case of too many middle managers with nothing else to do but get on the line workers backs to justify thier jobs."
And you know this how? Where do you get your information from, subtalk? I hate to confuse you with facts but the functions you are attributing to managers are actually supervisory functions. Perhaps if you are going to call yourself the voice of reason you should get your facts straight.
Not exactly.
I use the word manager/supervisor interchangeable.
I get my information from actual observations of TA operations, members of my family who have worked a various level of the TA in both Bus and train operations.
My uncle worked as a conductor, motorman and supervisor roles for nearly 30 years(currently retired)
Two of my cousins currently work for the TA. One cousin is a current train operator and the other is a bus operator.
My resume includes stints at various Inspector generals offices including the MTA inspector generals offices. My current job has me working in IT consulting where my firm develops solutions for fortune 500 companies which allow them to better track their business operations.
I am huge train buff ever since my first ride on the D train as a boy. It disgusts how the TA has done so little to update its operations. Their are hundreds of ways the ta can increase productivity of its work force but without accurate, real time statistics it make it very hard for them to do so. Increased productivity should not mean working people to the bone. It should include improving processes to allow a job to be done easier, safer, and yes in some instances using less man hours.
"I use the word manager/supervisor interchangeable."
Since they are not interchangable - if your credentials are as stated then you should know better. I have 18 supervisors who report to me. I do not report to them. Our roles are not interchangable,
I have 18 supervisors who report to me. I do not report to them. Our roles are not interchangable,
So.. You are the Supervisor's Supervisor? I'll bet even you have a supervisor, eh?
Or maybe there are supervisors and generic 'supervisors"...
And maybe they are all in some form of management, no?
I found his inital rant interesting enough, and suggested to me things that I had not thought of.
I presumed that T/Os and C/Rs punched out from a time clock in the crew room somewhere, or maybey signed their trains out and in or something. I ceertainly would not have thought that a shift eneded when someone else logged your train into the station. Surely there are details required to parking a train.
Surely in the morning they do not just go and take thier train, but must sign in somewhere... no? Somehow supervision/management needs to know that they are on the property and in a fit condition to operate a train.
Even at the end of the run, there must be a proceedure to turn in defect cards, and or pick up the latest bulletins, etc.
As for marking the arrival, departure, and passage of trains... the freight lines *Know* where every car on thier layout is to within several miles/and/or /minutes. They have detectors up and down the line that marks the passage of trains, and even do it by satelite.
You can hardly plan a schedule if you do not accurately know where your trains are.
Its 10'oclock, do you know where your train is?
Elias
"So.. You are the Supervisor's Supervisor? I'll bet even you have a supervisor, eh?"
Actually, I'm a Superintendent according to my ID card and badge. I report to another Superintendent who is the Barn Chief, hence my "In-House" title is Deputy Superintendent.
I use the word manager/supervisor interchangeable.
Within the TA these 2 terms are not interchangable.
Supervision: Train Distapatchers, Assistant TD's, Train Service Supervisors.
Management: Line Superintendents, General Superintendents.
Boy, you must think that Dispatchers do nothing but sit on their a** all day?
The title of Train Dispatcher is probably one of the most stressful positions in the TA. But since you propose a computer to do all of this work, then maybe you can answer a few questions.
How would a computer deal with a T/O or a C/R booking off sick, jumping a crew ahead on an interval or splitting a crew, having a train jumped ahead due to running around a disabled train, properly dispatching a crew onto a certain train when crews are missing due to a bad railroad, or how would a computer know if a crew member is under the influence when he/she reports for duty?
I'll be waiting for your response.
Quit simply the computer wouild not replace all train dispatchers but be an aid to allow them to do thier job better but removing many of the repetitive menial aspects of the job allowing them to focus on whats important.
The TA needs to do a top to bottom survey of how thier system opearates. Fortune 500 companies have hired management consultant which analyse their operations and suggest ways to streamline operations
"having a train jumped ahead due to running around a disabled train"
The current train dispatching system does a rather poor job of this. A computerised system would determine if their is a blockage on track A then re route to track b or C. AT&T has developed such systems for its voice and date networks, automatically rereouting traffic around blockages in its global networks.
" properly dispatching a crew onto a certain train when crews are missing due to a bad railroad, or how would a computer know if a crew member is under the influence when he/she reports for duty?"
All train operations employees would swip in when they arrive at work at thier choosen terminal. Preferable by using a biometric technique for security reasons(irus scans, finger prints scanner but proxy identification cards would do) This system would also be linked to payroll. A computerised board similar to one at grand central will show which crews are assigned to which runs. Of course the crew would be assigned their choosen run if they arrived on time. The crew should comfirm thier assignments with a certain time frame of being posted on the board.
One major productivity improvement that the TA has preposed would be to create one train operator positon to combine both train operator and conductor tittles. This would allow further flexibility in scheduling crews. Specific jobs within the tittle would be assigned based on sinority and picked in the cuurent fashion. Train operators would need at least one years experience before being able to do both jobs. The above computerized scheduling and dispatching system would assign the least senior motorman to handle a current "conductors" role on a run if not junior train opearator is available based on areeed apon criteria.
If your concern is that crews under the influence. Why not have crews take a breathizer before each run.
Removing the human aspect from this portion of train operations (and bus operations for that matter) would remove many aspects of favortism on assigning runs and will provide valuable data that managements and the union can use to improve scheduling for both train workers and the riding public. In the end it is a boon to line workers because it allows them to focus on thier job and not on whether or not the line manager like them
Of course the above explanation sounds overly simplistic. A comprehensive system would involve much more detail and would take months of planning to ensure that every possibility is thought out. But all of the above is currently possible and in use in the prvate sector. Companies such as AT&T, UPS, FedEX and USPS just to name a few have far more complex operations and have streamlines thier operations greatly. Most of the productivity enhancements came in the areas of middle mangement.
What TA will be gunning for would be the train worker titles and prepackaging of the picks for T/Os and conductors. Thats worth more money that they could save in OPTO. The TA was actually willing to give up OPTO in the last contract in exchange for TW1/2. Fight it before its too late. Fight it on the 15th. Good luck.
You guys get paid hourly correct.
A larget portion of the working public put in 45-50 hour weeks with no overtime.
Stop complaining. you get paid for every hour of work
Obviously an individual who is not a TA employee.
I suppose that you would prefer that crews overwork themselves to such a point as to become a danger to others.
After all, make a Bus Operator work a 13 hour day, 5 days a week. After all, he's getting paid by the hour and 1 1/2X after 8 hours so he'll get all the money.
I've got news for you PAL. You get tired after concentrating for 8,9 and even 10 hours a day. Why don't you try driving your car along the M101 route and do 3 round trips from 6th Street to 193rd Street while making simulated stops. Tiring huh? Now, do 4 round trips thanks to increased "productivity".
Or if you don't drive, do 2 round trips on the R,2,F,etc. which is what a normal crew would do. Now do 2 1/2 trips. You're dead tired after 2 trips, let alone do an extra half. But we get paid by the hour, so who cares?
I have no problem with putting in 8 hours work for 8 hours pay. But I don't want to work up to 12 hours a day. Driving a train is not the same as pushing pencils on a desk.
Station Agewnts also earn their money-- we are not guaranteed lunch. We xcann not go to the restroom without permission unless it is our lunch and hope our lunch is not pulled to work in another booth
Coffee Break- forget it, take the coffee with you in the booth when you start.
8 Hours? hope your releif does not call in sick and hope they have someone to cover your relief if they call in sick? You'll be stuick until they get someone.
Productivity- busy stations used to have two people in the booth and now we have one and the lines are just as long or longer.
Station agents in their current capacity are unneeded.
The job is obsolete similar to jobs such as elavator opertor and Phone operators who give directery assistance.
The TA could retrain current station agents to maintain the vast MVM network.
Imagine asking a MVM machine for:
Directions.
Change of a dollar.
Calling the police.
Calling for EMS.
A bus map.
A train map.
A working pay phone.
You COULD ask the retained station agent on duty at the station that. But if all he does is maintain a MVM, you'll not be able to get any help from him/her.
The key part of my post was "in current capasity"
Simply taking currency and handing a filled metrocards capasity of thier job is no longer needed. The MVM have completed replace this portion of thier job.
The TA still needs customer service reps who give directions(eithe r in person or over the phone - although LIRR has automated this function also) and help support fare control operations and station security and functionality.
Imagine asking a MVM machine for:
Directions. - Interactive kiosks (mapquest like service), support phone that calls TA telephone directions service. The current crop of MVM's can easily add this functioality in any language the user wants. How many staion agents can do that.
Change of a dollar. - The subway does not take coins. Therefore is not needed
Calling the police. - emergency call boxs, telephones
Calling for EMS. -emergency call boxs, telephones
A working pay phone - Has nothing to do with fare control. That is verizons responcibility
Depending on the station deferent staffing requirement are needed. Most stations in manhattan do not need token booth clerks at all. The only problem I have seen at stations like 34th street (east side of 34th street fare control) is that there are too few heets and the MVM's are not refilled often enough
But they are vandalized so often, if NYCT worked with NYPD in catching vandals who jam these machines and sell rides, taking customers money intended for NYCT. Then again it's the customer's fault who give them the money for "purchasing" these rides.
Once again, hang out on the south side of 34th st (32nd St/Broadway PT entrance) on a Sunday morning, you will see why.
Two things need to be done
1) Vandalizing MVM's needs to be a serious offense punishable by heavy fine or jail time. Ban from being on TA property.
2)Survalence Camera's need to be installed to monitor activity at MVM's. Police can quickly aprehend offenders.
3)MVM's that are malfunctioning should immediately alert someone at a centralized monitoring station of the problem. This is easier doon then it sounds. Most computer operating systems already have a facility to alert administrators of problems occuring.
4) riders need to be made aware of scams that people are perpertrating.
I use 34ths street west fare control 6 times a week at all times of day including nights and weekends. Riders tend not to mind using the MVM but only having 2 heets for both entry and exit causes a very bad problem.
1) Vandels have to be caught first before they get jail time or a heavy fine. As a rule they do not wait around after they act to "admire" their work.
2) Survalence cameras, Pay phones and infomation kiosks can be knocked out allowing certain persons to sell swipes or mug customers until Police arrive. Under a best case it'll take at least 10 minutes before Police arrive. I should word that AT LEAST 10 minutes.
3) Same thing with MVMs. It takes a moment for them to be knocked out. After that happens, people who want to enter the system are at the mercy of whoever is waiting for them.
4) Customers know they shouldn't be giving money to people who swipe for them. But paying $1 for what would cost them $1.50 is a bargain.
"Same thing with MVMs. It takes a moment for them to be knocked out. After that happens, people who want to enter the system are at the mercy of whoever is waiting for them."
MVM's are not that easy to mess up. They are as stout as ATMs. When in NY I have used them (and I use ATMs too, of course). I believe you're overstating the vandalism issue with MVMs.
Anyone not riding the subway, hanging around fare control, etc. can be questioned by police. MTA property is not exactly the same as being on the street. You can be arrested for trespassing, not just for fare beating.
All someone has to do to jam a MVM is to stick a matchstick in a slot. Then walk away.
You meant the East side of 34th st becuase the west side is a full time and manned 24/7, while it's closest to Burger King and Macy's. The East side is the one with the HEETs and closest to where the artists perform near the escalator.
Directions
Kiosks might be out of order. The same way that MVM's are out of order.
Change of a dollar
People will always need to use a pay phone. If the payphone in the station is working, that's another story.
Calling for Police or EMS
If the infomation kiosks and MVM's are not working, Call bozes are likely also out of order.
Payphones
Also likely to be out of order.
If Vandelism (aka out of order) has been committed
it'll take a while before:
Someone discovers it.
Someone reports it.
Someone fixes it.
Someone knocks it out again.
And retrained station agents will be working at several locations. So you may not be able to find one when you need one.
The handling of money (the sale of fares) is one thing, and the operation of a train station is another. All too often one agent has to do the whole thing. This 'locked-in-the-box' mentality (for the protection of the agent and his money) is a problem. You say you cannot go to the toilet during your shift. This is a BIG OSHA violation, perhaps you need to discuss this with OSHA. The booth (if booths are to continue to exist) needs to be built with a built-in restroom. If need be, you close the window and go and use the toilet. The public *can* wait five minutes.
I think that an 'open booth' is the way to go, more like a real railroad waiting room, with restrooms for both staff and the public, (yeah, it's a pain in the ass to keep them clean, so charge a token or a swipe to use them, and then hire a cleaner.) [Yeah... *that* requires a law change, so change the law!] A very well lighted room with maps and vending machines and automated ticket sales. A agent who is able to help people is a great idea. Include a concession, such as a newsstand or a resturant (Mickey D's or a Donught Hole) [Whate ever happened to Nedicks, they had the BEST hot dogs!]
Need a policeman on duty, put a policeman there for pitty sakes! That comes out of sombody else's budget anyway.
If all that costs too much at night, then don't collect fares at night! Concentrate on running the trains and moving the people. It works on Staten Island, doesn't it?
Support the Workers, yes, but don't fight innovations that are supposed to make the job safer and easier. The job of running a railroad station is still there, even if you do not have to fight with money.
Elias
I would think that station agents would want fare sales to be conducted exclusively by MVM's. Handling money brings responsibilities and headaches.
The heck with all this talk and finger pointing.
What remains to be said is a bunch of lightly educated thugs, who make excellent money and benefits for what they do, will absolutely cripple this city with a strike, and what's more, they don't give a damn.
At a time when this city is struggling, and when so many people are out of work, these miserable jackasses are holding the city hostage.
I'd say they are civil workers and ban their right to strike and if they do, fine them their entire year's salary and jail them. Let them see how those of us who are out of work and just struggling to get by like it.
Screw 'em all, the greedy jerks.
The voiceofreason did not major in spelling.
No I did not.
I am a child of the spell checker generation and often do not proofread my postings for spelling
We should ask Dave to add a spell checker to sub talk.
We should ask Dave to add a spell checker to sub talk.
A few folks have; he's indicated that it is not as simple as it might at first seem.
And from my perspective: learn to spell. Yes, I'll use a spell checker as partial protection against typos, but I don't need one to correct my spelling - nor do my children.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was a joke!!!
I kow how to spell very well. Just get a bit sloppy in my typing
It was a joke!!!
I know how to spell very well. Just get a bit sloppy in my typing
And I knew that too, or I would not have been so brash as to have made any comment at all to you. Your posts are of high quality, and well thought out even when we may agree to disagree, but the spelling does look bad and negates the good that you have been saying. So take a moment to type a little slower, and make fewer erors. That will go a long way toward bosting the issues that you want to make.
My brother has a master's degree, but still spells cake as "kake". He can get away with it because he is his own boss, and gets paid for fixing cars not for writing essays.
: ) Elias
I respect your opinion but let;s say we are in another part fo the station in a new capacity and you are stabbed by a msicreant or havign aheart attack. With your dyign ewffort you crawl to the pay phone enar the turnstiles which would become HEETs and call police? Oops- pay phone is not working? you crawl to antoher and repeat the problem oppr hope we come by before you expire0
Right-- and it will snow 4 feet in Miami next July 4th.
How things should be and how things are
Are two differnt things.
Train stations are big, and you could be so aflicted where there is no agent anyway. A moot point if you ask me.
Elias
Currently station agents stay in thier booth and have no idea what is going on at platform level which is sometimes two flights of stairs away.
Station agents are no help unless the problem occurs right in front of them.
The TA needs to install more emergency call box's simalar to those installed at Atlantic AVE brighton track. The call boxes consitst of a button and a microphone and speaker intergrated into a steal box. Very vandal resistant. At my college a camera was affixed nearby to allow campus police to view the area around the call box to see what was going on.
I'm not privy to the contract negotiations, so I've got a question: what productivity savings are being sought by management? Usually when I hear about "productivity" I think of maintenance, but operating employees (Conductors, Station Agents, etc.) seem to be the only NYCT employees talking on this thread -- is management talking about anything specific in the way of savings from productivity increases by operating employees?
David
Train Dude is in senior TA Management and he made some very informative comments.
Thanks, but:
1. He's a manager, but not a senior manager (defined as Assistant/Deputy Vice President or above).
2. He's in maintenance. I asked what productivity increases are being sought from operating personnel.
If "Train Dude" or anyone else has information as to what productivity increases are being sought from operating personnel (not those in maintenance), please post the information. Thanks.
David
John, I'm a Superintendent in Car Maintenance. I'm not sure where Senior Management begins but when I see a memo addressed to 'Senior Staff, I know it's not for me.
As to operational productivity, I speculated about three likely areas of contention:
1) Time in the cab per shift.
2) Expanded OPTO.
3) Flexibility in work schedules.
These were only speculative, based on my limited familiarity with RTO.
In their 'main table' proposal, under Productivity/Efficiency, they want:
Utilize one title with two levels for the work currently performed by Train Operators and Conductors - for the first three years in the Level II title, employees can be assigned to Level I or Level II work.
My comment: Currently, to get top pay as a T/O, you need 231 days of ROAD operations (not yard or switching). If a new Level II can spend time working as a Level I, it could take years to accomplish this - it took me about 16 months. Also note that the proposal does not say at what rate a Level II working Level I will be paid - one can only assume that it will not be at the higher rate. So, for the first three years of your promotion, you are subject to not really being promoted at all.
In the RTO negotiations, some of what we have been told they have asked for includes:
3 hour (up from 1) advance notice when calling out sick;
sick days to be paid at straight 8 hours, instead of what your pick job would normally pay;
the ability to create jobs that would get paid less than 40 hours per week;
eliminate all travel time for people working the board and picking up jobs;
people picking 'special' jobs, such as work trains and construction flagging, to be held in those jobs for a minimum of two years.
There were some others, but I don't have the list here at home.
One other thing - the reason why TWU list the increases for '03 and '04 as 0.00%, is that they are tied to an undefined productivity increase. Without having this defined, there is no way for us to tell if we have met the goal that would warrant an increase.
Where did this information come from? Are the negotiators telling the workers what's going on, or is it crewroom scuttlebutt?
(Just curious...not making a comment as to the proposals themselves.)
David
This information was distributed last week by the union to it's members as the TA's official counter proposal.
Do youreally believe that there will be a strike? That's a tough position that the TWU leadership is putting its members, the Rank-and-File, into. Even if there is a strike, Roger and the organizers will continue to draw their salary - presumably until the union has been bankrupt. The rank and file will not. Most. from what I see, daily, will not be able to financially withstand the economic hardship.
Last week the union leadership called for independent job actions at all work locations. How many actually had job actions? I do know that the very next day, union organizers were out in force, holding union meetings & chastizing locations that showed no support.
The fact is that many of the divisions within transit are young as seniority goes. Many are on probation. They also come from corners of the world where jobs like their TA job are only a dream. Clearly, these were not the people at the meeting yesterday. The question is, will they be on the picket lines next week.
Will they follow Roger Toussaint - believing that he will be able to lead them to victory? Will Roger be able to protect their highly prized jobs when he couldn't protect his own?
On the other hand, are the Pols. willing to risk the economic 'nuclear blast' that a strike would cause? Could the City or even the state withstand the fallout?
One can only hope that cooler heads will prevail this week. One hopse that the MTA dislike of Roger t. and Rogers hatred of management along with his desire to be immortalized in history, will give was to the real and legitimate issues that these negotiations should be about. To this point, i don't believe that has been the case - on either side.
a well balanced comment.
One of the 'evil' calculations in strike strategies is how long to "let them stay out" 'til the wages not paid equal the "raises". Of course when that equilibium is reached NOONE factors in the losses to everyone else. The egos on both sides do not care a tinker's damn about the rest of the equation. As o the "rights and wrongs" in this one, I can see many POV's, NONE of which except the worker safety is worth the economic savaging the city will experience if the system shuts down.
After the private lines strike they changed the rules once the members are on strike their officers do not collect a paycheck.
Jennings representing private lines still will if there is a strike but the rest are out of luck unless they are not released which applies to a few people.
I think that there will be a strike. I see that management and workers are so far apart on so many issues problems dilemmas and some more that I do not see any settlement. And to be honest they should be out on strike to prove a point that they are just like anybody else who is working. They're working for a paycheck.
And also the fare increase and the privates will have something to do with this.
Place your walking shoes on folks...You'll need it.
"And to be honest they should be out on strike to prove a point....."
Think so? Put it in human terms. A cleaner earns about $155 per day or $775 per week. If they strike for 2 weeks the cleaner loses $1,550 in salary and $1,550 in fines. Thats $3,100 lost. If they get the standard 3%, thats less than $5 per day or $23.25 per week. Seems to me that they'll be several years before they break even.
Now what point will they prove - other than the Taylor Law really stifles collective bargaining.
To be honest, when I saw your name responding to this thread, I figured that you would take a pro-management stance for obvious reasons.
I commend you for taking an objective, impartisan view in noticing that both sides definitely have faults within these negotiations.
Lets be honest, what did the MTA expect the reaction would be with their contract offer? A proposal such as this is usually made on the first day of talks when both sides make outlandish requests.
Yo Dude:
You know that most of us (TA employees) do not want to strike, myself included. I hope that a settlement can be reach b4 Sunday.....
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
6 more days to go.
Just thought I'd throw this in:
If you're a transit worker, and you strike, you're breaking the law. You cannot strike. You'd be engaging in an illegal work stoppage. You'd should rightfully be arrested and jailed. You should rightfully be fined heavily for every day you engage in an illegal work stoppage. Do not expect an ounce of sympathy from any subway rider if you decide to engage in an illegal work stoppage, no matter how justified your grevience may be.
That's about all I've got to say. I'm sure most TA workers on this board have been thoroughly offended by what I've just said. It's nothing personal. You guys just can't strike. It's illegal. Jail. Fines. Yadda yadda yadda.
If you're a transit worker, and you strike, you're breaking the law. You cannot strike. You'd be engaging in an illegal work stoppage. You'd should rightfully be arrested and jailed.
It doesn't work that way. Lots of people through history have willfully and unregretfully given their lives and their freedom to break unjust laws.
If it wasn't for people disobeying the laws, you'd be speaking English now and singing "God Save the Queen."
It doesn't work that way. Lots of people through history have willfully and unregretfully given their lives and their freedom to break unjust laws.
1. The Taylor Law is hardly unjust. In return for special rights and considerations which private sector employees do not enjoy, the law prohibits strikes by civil service employees.
2. The TWU is hardly fighting for anything more moral than money. I do agree with their assertions that discipline within the MTA is arbitrary and often unfair. However, nothing can excuse an illegal work stoppage. The city needs a functional transit system. Find another way.
Just let's hope somebody stops ALL republicans before they make America th SHAME of the world. From bu$h down to town council, Vote STRAIGHT Democrat and smash the right's STUPID handling of the economy and their crafting of virtual debtors prisons and their shielding of the saudi/oil/911 criminals. CLEAN ALL REPUBLICANS OUT, then laugh at them and their IDIOTIC policies designed to enslave America. Then get saudi arabia (W.O.T Over and won in 3 weeks). (just tax the oil cabal to pay for it)
Please take your medication before booting up your computer.
ROFLMAO
Unions - good Republicans- EVIL
I can agree with that!!!!!!!
Lithium....look into it.
Wall Street has voted. Even they know bu$h ia a fool and snow will do nothing to change anything. Americans should buy foreign currency and stick it in their matresses. Don't buy anything, you probably will lose your job soon and Bush's coming bankruptcy law, coupled with Felon adm. john poindexter's big brother computer spying activities will create a virtual debtor's prison. (which is the banking industry's fondest dream) BTW, Has anyone noticed how European companies are buying up American companies and looting them, bringing the money home. America has virtually no regulations to stop this and our jobs are being picked clean while ivory tower thoerorists make believe there is no problem and bozo bush is engaged in getting revenge for has father's stupidity instead of hitting saudi arabia for 9/11.
Well, us ivory tower folks know what you're talking about - at least some of us. We know there is a problem with the economy and with what we call "deindustrialization" (which is really a fancy word for "blue-collar jobs sucked down the drain and out of the country"). Trouble is, we don't quite know what to do about it. The main problem is trying to ram a solution past the politicians in more than one country. If y'all have a good idea of how to do this, let us know!
yea well besides a strike, how else can u get TA attention? not only that but Metro North supports NYCT
1. Rules slowdowns
2. Public support
3. Realistic negotiations
1. The Taylor Law is hardly unjust. In return for special rights and considerations which private sector employees do not enjoy, the law prohibits strikes by civil service employees.
What are these 'special rights and considerations' of which you speak?
Don't confuse him with the facts. Public employees actually have worse working conditions than the private sector.
Methinks you have an apple mixed in with your oranges!
There *are* certain benefits that accrue to public service, benefits that are absent in the private sector. Yes, this is true, and job secruity is a big plum among them...
But that does not negate the fact that public sector working conditions suck. It does not matter if you are a teacher, a custodian, or a train driver... I do not know where the *bosses* get the idea that they a dukes and earls in a castle, and the employees are serfs to be used and screwed, but this does seem to be the case.
Maybe if I was a transit worker, I'd settle for MAJOR REPAIRS in this area this time around, and let the dollars slide. It is not like that extra five dollars a day is a big deal in the big scheme of things.
Ah, but the bosses will promise you the moon in return for naught, and their promise will be frought with vapor.
Elias
What are these 'special rights and considerations' of which you speak?
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Taylor Law but were afraid to ask
From the Taylor Law:
"# defines and prohibits improper practices by public employers and public employee organizations;"
Interesting! Prohibits improper practices by public employers.
Does OSHA *know* about the lack of restrooms in the Token Booths yet?
Elias
Um, like who cares?
Token workers are well paid for what they do with solid bennies. You are a civil employee. You can't strike. And if you do you should be jailed.
Greedy and stupid...two new requirements for token booth workers.
My sincerest apologies to Dave Pirmann, if I'm making things a little HOT in here, but:
From someone hiding behind a handle with no e-mail address, you have a big mouth. You know so little about what happens in a booth. If there's a strike, you can thank your city's government for it.
Don't underestimate what token booth clerks do. I've worked some pretty terrible places under stress. No one's patting me on the back for what I have to endure for 8 hours!!! It is crap from the likes of the Customers that I have to put up with. People wonder what our problem is: it's you! Try to go into a booth like Port Authority. Lots of money, lot of paper work, and long lines. There are irritable jackasses who want to know why I can't give them a token, when I've just gone off duty and point them to the person who has just taken over the Booth. I ain't doing nothing, he says. The relieving clerk is signing the paper work so I can go home, but I haven't done a thing for 8 hours. You question what I should be doing in the Booth? Who the hell are you? When my computer is down, you get upset. When your card isn't working, you blame me. Blame yourselves!
There is no Assist (2nd Person) whatsoever. It's me, myself, and I. 30 minutes of lunch doesn't seem like a whole lot, especially when you skip your lunch and catch up on your work. I don't even go to the restroom. And I sometimes lose a few dollars because of my stress. I AM HELD ACCOUNTABLE for every cent I make for the TA. It isn't free money. The Clerk does nothing apparently. He asks for so much... BULL! I deserve a big fat raise. We want to talk about productivity. If we adopt Bloomie's theory for productivity increases and pay, then Station Agents who work Times Sq, Herald Sq, Port Authority, etc. deserve plenty for their troubles.
I am a Professional, but I have my limits. I don't come to work to take abuse from anyone. Also don't talk to me about changing jobs, because I'll stick to it and won't let my critics get the best of me. I have to support myself and my family, so enduring crap is what I'll do to survive.
Get your damn facts straight, then come back to me and talk about Clerks being greedy and stupid.
Screw him, Stef. Dude's a regular jerkoff. That statement you made applies to C/Rs, T/Os and B/Os as well......
I'd like to see some of these people who complain about an Agent or other TA employee doing their job to do the job themselves.
Thanks. The statement does apply to all of us.
It's hard to believe I was on the other side of the fence three years ago, but I now see with the eyes of a Transit Employee.
-Stef
Ah hem.......
You ARE greedy and stupid and that's why you are there - in a token booth. And you are about to hold the City hostage for what? You make better bennies than many people I know in the private sector and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and find a real job. I'll gladly swap with you any day of the week.....You make good money for...counting. Now that's an awesome skill, huh? Your arguments eing hollow, kind of like Barry Bonds complaining about not getting the extra millions "he deserves".
As for your paperwork conundrum, why don't you work on doing something bold like working out a computer-based system? Oh, pardon me. You are union and that means its 5:01 and you don't have to do a damn thing.
I'm all for you trying to better your lot. Don't do it at my expense, especially those of us who are a) strapped because we have lost so many jobs in this city and there are no jobs and b) had it up to here with the high cost of living in NY (read greedy unions like the transit workers will do anything they can to screw the public).
Oh, and as for you being "abused" in the booth, I'd say with your attitude, you deserve it. Let's see you struggle like we all are and we'll see how you like it.
Hiding behind No email? No, I don't want uneducated jerks like you emailing me. Its not worth it.
Dude, I said what I needed to say in the previous post. For your information, I've got a freaking Bachelor's Degree, so don't talk to me about being uneducated. You know so little....
-Stef
You tell Stef to "go and get a real job". Then you say there are no jobs. Which one is it? Do we have "real" jobs out there or don't we? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. How do you know if Stef's got a bad attitude when behind the booth? Have you seen him personally? He makes very valid points about what he has to do each day.
Seriously, man, try being all alone in a token booth dealing with angry asshole New Yorkers for eight hours a day with only a 30-minute break, if you don't have paperwork to deal with. And not being able to go to the bathroom? Try being an SA and your attitude will change quickly. A lot posters on this board work for the TA and describe the shitty way management has been treating them. Increasing productivity is easier said than done. Trains get delayed because people seem to have a problem with letting the doors close all too often. Trains can't just steer around each other like cars if one is slower than the other. Crews also have to deal with numerous timers on the lines which slow the trains down considerably.
Personally, I'd rather there not be a strike. Nobody wants to strike. But if the way the TA is treating its employees does not change (and it has to change), I say "Strike!" There are folks who are still there after 5:01 trying to help out commuters. The TA employees who post here on Subtalk and many others are hard workers who don't want shit to happen, but it does happen. And 90% of the time it's not their fault.
Seriously, tone down YOUR attitude and give the insults a rest. It's not needed here.
Thank You my friend. I don't go into the Booth with the intentions of having a bad attitude, but I sometimes feel like I'm left with a sour taste in my mouth after dealing with a few irritable people. In training, we talked about the fact that there would be a few bad seeds that we'd have to deal with.
Not every day we have is a bad one; I've had great days actually. Also, let me emphasize, not every customer is irritable. I've dealt with some really nice people. Clerks try to help the riding public as best as they can. However, we're only one person and can only do so much.
I've said this in two previous posts, and will say it again: The critics know so little of me. They mention I'm uneducated. What is a Bachelor's Degree?
-Stef
Sadly, that's how many people think of the people who "serve" them. These people are self-absorbed and self centered and they think they're better than everyone else and they look at the people behind the booth or in the cab or behind the cash register as being dumb. It's wrong for people to think that way, but sadly most of them will not change their line of thinking for anything. I really hope G Train Rider and others like him are not that way.
What is a bennie?
That's what I'd like to know. Maybe I can learn something....
-Stef
In this case, it's shorthand for "benefits".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahhhhhhhhh, thanks for the clarification.
-Stef
Quite frankly I thought it was a drug.
Yes, there is a drug, the slang name for which is 'bennies.'
The context in which it was used should have calrified things, but then, it could have worked out either way.
Elias
Hmmmm. Let me go down the check list.
Counting tokens is not:
1) Brain surgery
2) Something you win any award for
3) Something that will help humanity in the future
4) Does not involve partial differentials, lapacian tranforms, or even high school alegbra
And you are complaining about your job and how you deserve more than your already-too-generous pay and benefits? And you want to hold the City hostage for this, cost it billions on a daily basis that you walk and cost a lot of people money because they depend on mass transit? You want to cripple the City because you feel that, you should, um, be paid more, much more for what you are doing?
Gee, and you thought the tin man had no heart. Oh excuse me. If you had a brain you'd be doing much more creative things. I'd love to know your name and address simply so I can sue you for lost wages when you strike.
What's fare is fare (ha ha - get it?)
Not only do you NOT deserve a raise, you SHOULD NOT be allowed, under any circumstances, to strike. Don't like the job? Go out and get a new one (if you can find one, and I'm sure someone who counts tokens for a living will be in great demand).
Screw you and your union. Go strike and whatever happens to you and your union members will be well deserved. Meanwhile, I hope someone does sue your ass off for lost wages because you don't have the brains enough to look at the bigger picture.
Transit Workers Union = Greed
See, even you can understand the "new math"
I won't pursue this any further. Your point is well taken. Have a good night.
I really, really don't care if you wish to pursue it. I will.
I want everyone on this board to know what greedy jackasses you all are, how unneccessary this strike is and how you don't give a rat's you-know-what about anybody in this City but yourself. And I will be at you until you change your mind and vote AGAINST a strike, which, by law you have no right to do.
My advice to you and your union buddies is to get a clue.
Oh, and you say you have a BS? In what? Token counting? Gee, what a great thing to have.
Stef don't pay G rider any mind. I know how hard you Station Agents work. I have friends that where Station Agents. I wouldn't want to do your job even if it was double my salary. I know a lot even say it about my job but after a while you get use to it. Stef just keep up the great work and will just hope the TWU and MTA get some kind of reasonable agreement going.
Thanks to Steve, Doug, Pelham Bay Dave, and others for words of wisdom. Let your voices be heard. I'll keep my head up....
-Stef
All right all.
Let's get our facts here straight (are ya listenin' Stef?)
Here's the deal.
TWU = crooked, greedy body, that does not give one rat's ass about this city. They are the main reason fares are so high (and artificially so).
Token booth clerks = People who won't go out of their way one iota to help ANYONE. If I had a dime for all the times that has happened, I'd be rich. Let's see. A rider wants to know why the 7 train is delayed. Hmmmm. Seems to me like a single phone call would do it. After all, you have that big, old white board to write things on, dontcha? And a shiny phone....Ooopps, I'm sorry, you're union and you don't have to do one thing past your quitting time or what the contract says. That's the spirit. A real New Yorker.
Transit Workers = Greedy crooks who should be in the real world fighting for jobs based on performance. As they used to say, union job = lifetime job. Can't be fired unless there was some gross violation of the contract. Try that in the white collar world and see what happens.
Transit Workers = people who complain constantly (not to mention moan and groan) about their jobs. Guess what folks? No one put a gun to your head. You accepted the responsibilities when you signed on. That includes not breaking the law with a strike and screwing the fair citizens of this City. Its called the Taylor Law. Um, like what don't you understand about that? You signed on, that's that. Your fault. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Best sight today: An elderly woman giving it to a bus driver on the B43 line, telling him what a piece of you-know-what he is if he goes on strike. Gotta love it.
6% for a raise? Gee, I know many people getting RIF'd (that's reduction in force, folks), without packages and insurance and having families. And you want 6%? For what? Counting a bunch of coins? What a joke. I'll do it. I volunteer. Any station, any time. Atlantic Avenue on the L third shift? I'm there.
So please Stef and all, spare me the BS. Let's talk about living in the REAL world.
First of all most people don't like thier jobs inside and outside of transit
Although there are plenty of bad eggs working for NYC transit including the Bus driver on the B3 who refuses to stop at my stop (no joke) The majority although sometimes grumpy do a damm good job
In these times of economic troubles it is time that TA employees feel the pain of givebacks like the rest of society
All right all.
Let's get our facts here straight (are ya listenin' Stef?)
Here's the deal.
etc etc. ad nauseum...
Does you mommy know that you are still up past your bed time?
Does your mother realize how stupid and irritating you can be late at night?
Ok G rider, your arrogance & ignorance is reaaly starting to bug me & others here >:-o! You should do something with yourself like protesting the deep cuts YOUR G line suffered over the years and stop 'stalking' Stef. I don't know why I am responding to you but I'm going to speak my opinion.
>>"TWU = crooked, greedy body, that does not give one rat's ass about this city. They are the main reason fares are so high (and artificially so)."<<
PROVE THAT!
>>"Token booth clerks = People who won't go out of their way one iota to help ANYONE. If I had a dime for all the times that has happened, I'd be rich. Let's see. A rider wants to know why the 7 train is delayed. Hmmmm. Seems to me like a single phone call would do it. After all, you have that big, old white board to write things on, dontcha? And a shiny phone....Ooopps, I'm sorry, you're union and you don't have to do one thing past your quitting time or what the contract says. That's the spirit. A real New Yorker."<<
You want B/C's to risk their jobs, why don't YOU work for the MTA and see what the workers go through, then you can stop posting irrational comments.
[>>"Transit Workers = Greedy crooks who should be in the real world fighting for jobs based on performance. As they used to say, union job = lifetime job. Can't be fired unless there was some gross violation of the contract. Try that in the white collar world and see what happens."<<
Isn't that what they are doing now! Most workers ARE dedicated to ther jobs, its the money hungry workers who have no love for the job that should be fired/released.
>>"Transit Workers = people who complain constantly (not to mention moan and groan) about their jobs. Guess what folks? No one put a gun to your head. You accepted the responsibilities when you signed on. That includes not breaking the law with a strike and screwing the fair citizens of this City. Its called the Taylor Law. Um, like what don't you understand about that? You signed on, that's that. Your fault. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."<<]
Well if they groan & moan, it might be something called STRESS however I do agree that some MTA workers don't care about the job, people and have no love for the job. The TWU DID try to negotiate with the MTA since the springtime & now they want to do it less than 2 weeks from the contract expiration. They really shouldn't strike b/c us straphangers are the victims here but the workers are fed up with management and you MUST look at the bigger picture. They beter be careful bc they can be replaced if the gov't wants to do so but its 34000 workers so that doesn't look like a solution.
Don't really care what you think of my posts.
Any muni finance person can tell you why the TWU and their bloated contract have driven fares up over the year. I'm not going to sit here and do the math for you. Its common sense. Figure it out.
No sir, most transit workers are arrogant to the nth degree. They can afford to be. They have job security, which they really shouldn't. And I am looking at the bigger picture. A strike would be devastating to the City, but the TWU could care less. Do they really, honestly care about many of the people who DEPEND on mass transit for their livelihood? NO THEY DON'T.
Don't strike and I'll shut up. Strike and I'll lobby for every transit worker to serve jail time as per the Taylor Law. You break the law, you pay. And for every worker who gets spit upon, I'll just clap.
Hey you want pay and better conditions? I'm all for it. Just don't crap in my back yard, especially when I am losing it due to the economic downturn in this City (which by the way is being hit 50% harder than elsewhere in the US)
Oh, and I didn't vote for Bloomberg, but I absolutely loved what he said yesterday, that his office will not be cowed by the TWU. \
JAIL 'EM ALL!
You and Bloomberg also have a similarity...talking tough with no teeth. Everyone knows that if Bloomberg had a seat at the table, he would have tried something by now, for better or for worse. He has no say, and will be along for the ride.
Have you thought of carpooling?
G Train,
You may be a bit rough-edged, but you've basically said exactly what I think. And, more importantly, what many, many other people think. Let the TWU ignore these thoughts at their peril.
I'd be more inclined to beat up on TWU *if* they'd gotten a piece of the pie when things were fat and everybody else was getting bonuses. But they didn't. Granted times are tough today, but they're signing up for ANOTHER long term contract that they'll be locked into for YEARS while the economy improves quickly (so we're told) ...
I can see taking a zero for one year, but they're certainly entitled to something for the future if we're really going to have an economy again. Even in the worst of the last major crunch when "Daddy" was in office, the upcoming contract for state employees had a zero in it, but 3% in later years since these "recessions" are supposed to be short-lived. To tell them to go to hell is a bit disingenuous. :(
What woud be the drawbacks for TWU to carry on without contract, let's say for a year?
Arti
Probably no "reciprocal" ... I seem to remember hearing somewhere on here that the state or city will not allow retroactive payments in the event of a settlement. A lot of folks don't really understand what it's like to work for a government agency and only see the "upside" of PERHAPS "continued employment" ... I can assure ya though, I've had my title abolished twice (out of work) and my agency abolished twice (NY-SCAN and Cable Commission) so even the "work for life" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Then you've got a preponderance of trolls (discipline) that you don't see in the private sector, if someone else screws up and it's YOUR "drawer" that turns up short, you can go directly to JAIL ... there's a LOT of downsides to public employment (such as this long term contract situation) that many don't realize.
Just so you can get an idea of why so many TWU people are grumpy ...
But yeah, given what's offered, if *I* were a TWU negotiator, I'd want to do a ONE year contract. The state will NEVER go for that though.
Wouldn't they? My private-sector employer normally negotiates a contract every three years with those union members in its employ, but earlier this year they negotiated an 18-month extension simply because that allowed both sides to walk away happy... no strike (management), possibility of a better contract sooner (union).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That would ...
a) be logical
b) be DIFFERENT
b) is viewed as being even MORE off the board than a) as a reason why it cannot be done. But wouldn't it make sense? Whoop. Instant conflict of interest right there. I've gotta go sit in the corner now. :)
"Then you've got a preponderance of trolls (discipline) that you don't see in the private sector, if someone else screws up and it's YOUR "drawer" that turns up short, you can go directly to JAIL ... there's a LOT of downsides to public employment (such as this long term contract situation) that many don't realize."
If your draw turns up short in any bank or store you are responcibe to make up the difference and will be fired if it happens more then once.
$21 an hour for a clerk is twice the going rate. Your union has failed you where it really counts. They got you the bloated paycheck for the skill and job performed. they left you out in the cold where it really counts the work rules. Tooken booth clerks should not be on continuous duty during peak times for more then an hour or two without a break. Clerks should rotate between booths and stations in busy areas so that they can stretch thier legs and releve the strain of thier mindless job. those who do not have anything useful to think about think about what they don't have which beings on stress.
Maybee the 1/3 of the tooken booths that remain can be better quipted.
Hey station agents can you please turn the light off in your booth when your shift is over. The money saved culd go to your raise. The bank of new york awards a monthly prize to the employee who make suggestions that saves the bank money. Maybe that can adopted by the MTA.
Just to keep the record straight, when I worked for the TA over 30 years ago, it was as a conductor, and later as a motorman. Never did the token booth thing. But yeah, what you describe would be somewhat logical and probably quite the improvement in the work situation for those who do it. Alas, this is GOVERNMENT. The study groups that come up with these job descriptions and conditions don't THINK about things like that. Prisoners are often treated far more humanely than those who work for the "people." This is why a good number of folks in the system feel the way they do. And it's true, you've REALLY got to try it out to see how amazingly awful some jobs can be in civil service. And YET, the MAJORITY of those who are doing those jobs are courteous, professional and genuinely care and EARN their "fat paycheck."
One really needs to TRY the gig to appreciate it all.
"The bank of new york awards a monthly prize to the employee who make suggestions that saves the bank money. Maybe that can adopted by the MTA."
NYC Transit has an active Employee Suggestion Program that has been in place for many, many years.
David
But there needs to be a monetary reward for the effort.
For instance. Installing motion sensors in tooken booths that tuen off the light when the booth is unattended. Electricity savings alone would be worth Million of dollars over the years
"Installing motion sensors in tooken booths that tuen off the light when the booth is unattended. Electricity savings alone would be worth Million of dollars over the years"
Good idea for the country as a whole but not likely to save the MTA any money.
Large industrial users of electricity pay not by the kilowatt hour but by kilowatt of maximum demand. It's not how much electricity you use, it's your peak usage that counts. So they don't save by cutting the lights off hours.
Large industrial users of electricity pay not by the kilowatt hour but by kilowatt of maximum demand. It's not how much electricity you use, it's your peak usage that counts. So they don't save by cutting the lights off hours.
Wrong. While it is true that the "demand" rate is a major component of the bill, the number of kWh also enters in. And in many parts of the country it's not just the large industrial users, it's the homeowners as well; demand metering for residential customers is quite common in the South (oftentimes on a voluntary basis - better rates off-peak, demand rates on-peak for subscribers, great for families who aren't home during the afternoon and early evening in the summer, when air conditioning load is the highest, lousy for everyone else).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a monetary award, which varies according to the savings (sometimes it's nothing, sometimes it's thousands).
David
One of the catches, though, is that by submitting your idea, you give up all rights to it, whether or not it is chosen as a winner.
I just became a winner. All I got was a certificate, but all I wanted was to see the idea implemented on the scale I had proposed it. The award said it was implemented. I don't think they fully understood the idea. I'm going to write Reuter about it, but I think I'll wait a few weeks. He may be busy at present.
Would you mind if I ask what the idea was
I'll e-mail, it's a little long.
There is an employees suggestion program currently in TA.
Uh...isn't that what I just said? :-)
David
In the current contract, 1.10 (F) allows for 1% of gainshared productivity to be shared by the members of the unit involved. To date, the TA has never paid off, and the union probably never volunteered, not that they'd have to since the TA pays employees a small cash bonus for those suggestions on the side, similar to the rewards reaped by scabs who win the roadeos.
$21 an hour for a tooken booth clerk is defintly a fat salary for the skill needed at the job.
I agree that some other title in the TA seem underpaid but the union should be focusing on improving working conditions and work rules and not a raise in the present economic condidtions. The fact of the matter the TA surplus was less related to transit operations as it was to incresed revenues at the mta bridges and tunnel and the mta surcharge on phone bills.
The union should be working with management on utilizing new technology to improve the working conditions of workers and improving processes freeing monies for raise's for the remaing workers.
The fact of the matter the TA is a bloated ineffecient operation from the management suit, to the operations area's. there is much room for improvement.
And imagine ... at $21.00 an hour, there's VACANCIES! Unfilled jobs! If you truly believe in the free marketplace, then it would suggest that $21 an hour ISN'T enough for what the job takes, or they could pay $8.50 an hour and be full up. Government jobs aren't what folks have been lead to believe. I used to scoff too at what "government workers" got paid, and those fantastic benefits. Then I piped on board the mothership. If they paid $100 an hour, I wouldn't want to go back.
How many of these "vacancies" are due to the fact that the MTA wants to phase out the position. Is the civil service list for the postion empty. In this economy I seriously doubt it. there would be more applicants if the public knew what they got paid (many people never heard of the cheif and many more have criminal records and think they are not eligiable). There are hundreds of thousands of new yorkers that don't have the education level to earn that kind of money in the private sector. $21 an hour is more then many city workers get paid at many city agencies. $21 an hour is more then a large majority of current station agents would be making if they were not working for the MTA. The grass is always greener on the other side. In this day and age unless you possess the right skill or trade it is hard to earn a healthy living
As I have stated on this board I have worked at various inspector generals offices in both city government and the MTA. I know full well how many incompetent down right childish managers and employees who choose do do as little as possible. Pesonally I want to work in place where my hard work is recognized and I can earn what I deserve based on the quility of my work and value I bring to my company.
Civil servie system and unions and hard work and recognition for that work never coexists peacfully. This turns alot of people off and make good workers angry because they are thrown in and treated just like those who don't give a damm.
The notion that I am a civil servent and I can't get fired atitude by some workers make life a living hell for the good hard working individuals who get treated poorly by doing more then is needed to get by.
People work thier butts off to get into top colleges so that they have the skills to get that dream job. Working conditions for the average wall street worker is not peaches and creame. Constant pressure and long hours that even if you make good money you have not life and you can get fired for making a mistake that costs the company money. Slimmy managemetn exists all over. Those that don;t have to skills to say f@!@# off are stuck dealing wiht it
A "vacancy" is a line item which is FUNDED and is available to be filled. I'll leave it there, not my place to convince you otherwise. I'm quite happy in my private sector career, am living pretty well and have no fear of losing my job. I guess because I have sex with my CEO I'm pretty safe. :)
But I see no point in continuing this "conversation." You're right. Line up ALL those miserable workers and shoot them, those miserable ingrates.
The reason people are misreable useally has nothing to do with monwy.
Take a misreable poor person and hand him a few million dollars. After the initial joy of recieving a few million dollars wears off you have a misrable righ person
That's quite true - but when they can't pay their bills, they get TRULY miserable. personally, given an idea of what the work REALLY entails, that $20.00 an hour is a bit shy of a load. That a fair wage isn't paid in other sectors doesn't change that.
College degrees are worthless, it's the cash you can generate for an employer (or in my case, business partners) that matters as to how you get treated and what you get paid. Has nothing to do with all the time you invested in an edicational institution. Once upon a time, a college education was SCARCE and thus had value. Now it has little more value than showing up in High School, that's the reality today.
It's who you know and what you chew on that determines your fate - I know plenty of people who were in arbitrage - some of them pulled down over $100 million a year and spent most of that money on surgery to compensate for their fascination with Peruvian marching dust. What can I say? The banking and financial industry did a pretty miserable job the last few years, now THERE'S a trade worthy of disrespect. Someone who shows up for work every day, puts up with the level of crap that civil servants do on a daily basis, doesn't rip anyone off and doesn't empty a gun at their "customers" kinda sorta deserves their check. :)
We all put up with crap. Nobody should have to put up with management who quite frankly have nothing to do but to be up someone's butt. The TA has two many layers of management who don't have enough to do. Many jobs in TA mangement are obsolute if technlogy used in the private sector is applied to the TA
Some people don not inderstand that the purpose of collge is not to get a degree but to gain skills that make you an asset to your company. AKA make the company money.
My value is that I am able to solve complex problems and improve business processes utilizing properly deployed technology solutions that allow my clients to make more money. I always was a child who tried make things work better. Put some oil on the chain on your bike and it makes it easier to peddle. It was my college education that gave me the knowledge in accounting, finace, marketing, technology, commuications and managemnt that allowed me to apply my natural skills. The opera singer without the proper training is just a girl with a deap voice
If you have the skills to make your company money it does not matter if you have a college degree. Many jobs require skills learned in college and much of the productivity gains obtained in the private sector are largely due to a better educated workforce. It makes it easier for employers to weed out the bad lazy worker.
The MTA would have happier workers if they provided training and education monies to all thier workers to develope the skills needed to run NYCT well. McDonalds is a fine example of this where burger flippers have the opertunity to move up into managment if they work hard
You're missing the point on the public sector. Skills are required SOLELY to pass the test. I won't stir the pot by explaining how the skills required for a civil service test and the skills required for the job are mutually exclusive, but if you're planning on SG-21 or higher and go for the "battery test" I strongly suggest learning animal husbandry and the PROPER method of dealing with bats flying around in an apartment (no joke, this is a major part of the supervisory titles test) since you'll need to document, and then report your thought processes as to how you would discipline the bat.
And external training is of NO use when you go to work in the sausage factory - each agency has its very OWN school car where everything you knew before is wrong and you'll be pointed in the proper direction and learn to walk sideways. Fill in your 7.50 hours here, carry your accruals over to the back, note your anniversary date and sign here please. NEXT ...
The union is trying to get TA to train it's employees in the technology instead of hiring more people. The TA has two workforces union workers and non-managerial non-union workers. Out of a workforce of 34,000 I am sure at least 25% would be willing to be trained a new skill and better themselves.
Crazy train retraining is definitly the way to go vs. across the board raises. If the union came out with our workers need better traing, working conditions, more fair diciplinary system the public may have some sympathy
raises right now concidering the average staion cleaner was making more money then a teacher with 5 years experince and a masters degree is a bit crazy.
I know we all feel we are underpaid. It is human nature. But in the case of many TA workers it is just not the Case
But, those were in our demands. Unfortunately, they are not newsworthy, whereas a 24% (down to 18%) raise is.
The 24% raise demands is such a stupid thing to ask for given the current economic situation.
Of course the media covers what they think they can get eye's to thier product. It did not help that your leader never mentions it.
"Any muni finance person can tell you why the TWU and their bloated contract have driven fares up over the year. I'm not going to sit here and do the math for you. Its common sense. Figure it out. "
Just so you have it correct yourself....... Each $60 million of salary increase =5 cents at the fare box. Now you do the math.
If TA could cut their worker's wages, does that mean the fare will go down? Just wondering?
Don't be a trouble-maker!!! Actually - the TA has cut the fare by about 13 cents per ride on average without cutting salaries.
>>"Do they really, honestly care about many of the people who DEPEND on mass transit for their livelihood? NO THEY DON'T"<<
You actually have a point there, if they really cared about the people they wouldn't strike. However, most workers DO care & would rather not strike than would but then again, they could hold their true feelings in and want to join the attempt to get salary arbitration. It won't be sensible & logical to jail all 34,000 workers it won't happen. I think Touissant "offered" to modify the proposed wage increase to get to the bargaining table today in the New York Post.
There are the workers who are working at the MTA just for the salary, benefits and they are extorting the MTA out of payroll that could go to someone who really deserves it but as I said before, more are dedicated than not. A lot of us here would be grateful to work in this agency, even work for free just for the passion [but we're railfans so of course there's the passion] & other folks could do it, it isn't that hard to obtain a job there if you feel you could pass the civil service exams. These people need to come to a damn resolution b/c I'm not getting stranded for something that can be prevented.
Koch was different from Bloomberg and Pataki...one day of the strike will positively flip them out and I don't think they could handle the fallout as well. The MTA is calling the union's bluff...note that those shuttle trains WON'T RUN FOR THE FIRST 24 HOURS! Now, scratch your head and ask why those shuttle trains won't be ready? The impact may be so BAD the first day that Pataki WILL BE DRAGGED to the table. Although the amount of operating money saved from the MTA not running may mean that commuter vans might stick around in certain neighborhoods.
"Now, scratch your head and ask why those shuttle trains won't be ready?"
Because a strike is typically called around 2 AM, which doesn't give managers time to call everybody up and tell them their new work assignments for 3 or 4 hours later. Besides, it's not a good idea to call up a T/O at 4 AM and tell them their work assignment has changed. They might not be very awake when they get to work.
That elderly woman is the piece of shit. How dare she come on the bus and try to spew garbage like that! Seems like she and you do not have a clue as to what is going on. But then again it people like you and her that makes our jobs more stressful and have attitude towards customers as a whole. If I was that B/O, I would have her ejected off the bus.
No dude...its you who have no clue.
A) Please refrain from the profaine language.
B) You are out of touch. Why don't you try to get a white collar job where you can get fired for no cause?
TWU = Greedy, mindless thugs who are intent on ruining the City for self gain at a time we cannot afford it. That means all of us, jackass. What did you not understand about that?
Small minded people like you are the reason this City is going to suffer if there is a transit strike. I hope you do wind up in jail. As for the elderly lady, please respect your elders. We are all allowed to have opinions, especially those who depend on mass transit. Its you who are the piece of garbage, sir.
Oh. Oooopps, I forgot. As a union employee, the general riding public, who is being robbed blind by you and will foot the bill for your selfish shortsightedness, isn't allowed to say anything. I forgot. That stuff stresses you folks out and its worth another 10% on the old padded payraise scale.
Dude, get a clue!
Learn to spell. You have no credibility,
>>> Why don't you try to get a white collar job where you can get fired for no cause? <<<
It sounds like you have been working at a place where you need a union to represent the white collar workers. :-)
Tom
"Why don't you try to get a white collar job where you can get fired for no cause?"
There's always a reason!!! You may not agree but there is always a reason. Most companies rarely fire competant employees for no reason.
"Most companies rarely fire competant employees for no reason."
True, but very often the reason is "we have decided that your division is not profitable and everybody in it is being let go" or "we have to cut headcount by 20% and you happen to be in the 20% because we had to pick somebody."
I survived a series of 10 layoffs in a company before they were sold off, and by the 7th layoff there was nobody there who wasn't pulling their weight 110%. But business was bad and the layoffs kept coming.
"Most companies rarely fire competant employees for no reason."
If a company can take a senior employee and replace him with a new man making less, all the company has to do is find a reason that won't sound like age discrimation in the courts.
If a company can take a senior employee and replace him with a new man making less, all the company has to do is find a reason that won't sound like age discrimation in the courts.
That doesn't happen all that often, though, unless the senior employee doesn't have the skills necessary to do the job in a changing environment - and if he's a good employee to start with, the company will usually invest in the training because of all the corollary knowledge that the employee already has.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is very hard to force out old employees. In fact companies who treat thier emplyees poorly have a hard time bringing in top candidates due to their past record.
If the company is watching its bottom line, all they have to do is train new people then wait for a chance to let the senior employee go. As long as the new employee is willing and able to work, the more likely the senior employee can go. And there have been cases where good employees have seemingly fallen apart suddenly and been forced out.
You telling me refrain language. The same language that used in your post to which I answered to. And I do got a clue, unlike yourself. I see youre G Train Rider and a B43 rider so you must live in Northwest Bklyn(Greenpoint, Williamsburg). You mad at us, but you need to be mad at the MTA. They are stalling here with the negotiations. They are the reason why your G line is one step away from being obselete. Like I mentioned before, why should I or my coworkers let management give us a bogus offer so that you can go to work, come home to family, or possibly take a ride and come back and post about some greedy "uneducated thug"(laughs) whos been rude. Get a grip!
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Sounds like you're jealous!!!!
Agreed, bank tellers can be that way. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps you'd let us all know what you do for a living so we can decide if you are worth what you are paid. Before you get a little chubby, let me tell you I'm not a token clerk. I don't think I could do the job. I don't think I could sit in a booth for up to 8 hours - a target for every miscreant - insulted by the public for things out of my control - required to have all info about the system at my fingertips - and then get insulted by a person of your obvious caliber. Do us all a favor and please do not wear rings. When you walk, the sparking by your knuckles dragging along the sidewalk could be a fire hazard.
Train Dude:
Simply trying to point out that
A) Token booth clerking is not worthy of a Peace Prize
B) Will not alter the balance of power in the middle east
C) is not open heart surgery.
Anyone could do the job. Anyone.
I am a banker, and yes very proudly have a Masters from NYU. Again, not brain surgery, but none the less well above a token clerking position.
I have so many, many friends who are out of work and struggling, and along comes a bunch of really, uneducated thugs, who decided to hold the city hostage. This at a time when it is A) the holdiay season and b) people are struggling. Get it? Its really simple.
What the brainless drones in the union don't realize that for the selfish gains of a few and I do mean a few, you are going to screw so many people who rely on mass transit to even get to interviews. Fair? No way. Then you have this blow hard like, what's her name, Stef? The one who posts on the board who wants a Purple Heart for what she does. Screw her and the Union.
I don't advocate violence at all (best left in the boxing ring, hockey rink or football field) but I will tell you this. I hope to see the union get what it deserves - whether it be violence, public scorn, hatred, jail time, suspensions, fines or whatever.
They Taylor law was put in place to protect the public, not have a bunch of cowards like the TA Union hide behind it.
By the way, do you know how much money will be lost per day if there is a strike and how many companies will simply locate because the tax base is easier, the workers more plentiful AND.... They don't have to put up with the BS and pettiness of the union.
Maybe you should do us all a favor and stay inside if there is a strike. You've proved your cowardess already with this last post.
"very proudly have a Masters from NYU."
...
"You've proved your cowardess already with this last post."
Maybe you shouldn't be so proud of your master's degree. You don't seem to have learned one of the key points of written communication very well.
Maybe you shouldn't be so proud of your master's degree. You don't seem to have learned one of the key points of written communication very well.
Tone, spelling, or grammar?
K. M. A. dude.
Lets see you get through any NYU program and we'll talk.....
"proudly have a Masters from NYU"
I was considering NYU for grad school but after reading your post I have second thoughts about the quality of the education
Well, your loss.
NYU is top 10 in law and business. If you want to act like an ass, be my guest...I'm entitled to my opinion, just like your misguided opinion....
Law and Business! Well that explains your selfish rants. Oh, and by the way, this union worker doesn't need to use a spell checker.
"I don't advocate violence at all (best left in the boxing ring, hockey rink or football field) but I will tell you this. I hope to see the union get what it deserves - whether it be violence, public scorn, hatred, jail time, suspensions, fines or whatever. "
I wouldn't want to see a strike as much as the next guy, but if you think any TA worker is afraid of being fined, suspended, or hated by the public, you're missing the point. TA workers are ALREADY HATED by the public and written up by their idiot bosses for the most minor of infractions ON A DAILY BASIS.
How long have you lived in NYC, G? The subway system has come long, long way in the last 10 years, due in no small part to it's employees, whom still get treated, ironically, like shit. if there's a minute or two daily, people get all huffy and puffy. In my day, you were lucky if the god damned graffiti coated train didn't break down on the way home, and that while you were sitting their stuck in the tunnel for a half hour you wouldn't have your pockets picked or be outright mugged and assaulted.
In short, the union has nothing to loose by holding the city hostage, they get no respect and a lot of abuse for doing a fine job as it is.
PS: Only recently has assulting a TA employee become a crime holding the same weight as that of assaulting a police officer - so if you've got any bright ideas on commiting such acts, I do hope you'll enjoy your time in jail.
reply and whine all you want, but this is all i got to say. have a nice day and watch the *&$#@^ closing doors.
In short, the union has nothing to loose by holding the city hostage, they get no respect and a lot of abuse for doing a fine job as it is.
Nothing to lose? How about, like, their jobs? Don't think it can't happen.
The MTA can realistically fire 2/3 of it's unionize work force and be back up and running with the remaining workers and contract out such functions as
1) Bus cleaning and station maintained
2) Most electrical work
Plus:
1) Life would go on if all station agents were let go.
The only area of Ta operations where unique skill that may not be readily available in the marketplace are in the areas of
1) Motorman
2) Track maintained
3) Car maintained of pre r-142/r143 equipment
Most other TA position could easily be refilled or contracted
out. Positions could even be refilled from existing cibal service waiting lists. Striking when the economy is in recesion is not a good idea period.
The quility of services provided to the public would definitly degrade in the short term.
Yeah... we can contract AMTRAK to run the Subways!
On a more serious note there are numerous of contract cleaning compaies. Citibank fired all its staff cleaners a few years back and contracteed out cleaning services to clean all its bank branchs and ATM locations.
Why not contract out subway operations to bombardeir. LOL!! They currently run AirTrain.
If the current CBTC is successful on the L, don't be surprised if you see an excelleration of the deployment of CBTC which would make it fairly easy to impliment OPTO or ZPTO on many lines.
Most of the train equiptment could be upgraded to CBTC can be modified to run without a motorman at the controls
"Anyone could do the job. Anyone."
So why don't you take the test and become a station agent? I'd like to see you face your friends and brag to them how easy the job is. Assuming you can snag a free moment.
Station agents are not needed and at $20 an hour thier would be a line around the corner to fill the positions.
there is a large part of the population in nyc that would be willing to cut a few fingers off in exchange for the job
The job is not glamorous. It may be tedious but for an uneducated person it is more than one could expected to get paid for for essentially a position with a market rate salary of about $8-$10 an hour. That is the god honest truth.
$20 hour ($42,000 a year) is more then the average New Yorker makes. That includes many accountants, city employee, bank teller, many people in wall street operations, marketing, advertising, Fed Ex delivery man etc.
Could "anyone do the job" - NO most people would not be able to deal with the isolation for 8 hours a day but, the TA would have no problem filling positions.
If you can't do it, at least just say so.
It is not a matter of could I do it. If I were not educated and capable of better employment I would jump at the opurtunity to earn $20. I am not suggesting that anyone get fired but rather they should be happy for what they get paid. Sometimes you need to step back and look at the big picture. Sitting in a booth all day with nothing to challenge your mind is not something I am interested in.
Fortunitly all the hard work I have put into developing skill that are in demmand makes $20 an hour far less then what my skills go for in the marketplace.
Developing my skills is costing me $36,000 per year for 4 years. I wouldn't blame someone for thinking twice about the cost of college, although Stef has a bachelor's degree. You also seem to think that only the highly educated should make decent money. A study showed last year that in order to live comfortably in New York, you need to make $48,000 per year. Living above the poverty line is not necessary living comfortably.
Just a thought.
Developing my skills is costing me $36,000 per year for 4 years. I wouldn't blame someone for thinking twice about the cost of college, although Stef has a bachelor's degree. You also seem to think that only the highly educated should make decent money. A study showed last year that in order to live comfortably in New York, you need to make $48,000 per year. Living above the poverty line is not necessarily living comfortably.
Just a thought.
" You also seem to think that only the highly educated should make decent money."
I beilive that people who bust thier butt to learn a valuable skill or obtain a good education should be rewared. People who choose not to pay attention in school wasting taxpayers money should deal with the lot life brings for such people
If so much money was not wasted overpaying people more the then the job market warrents the money could be put to better use such as incresing bus service. Upgrading subway infrastucture and paying skilled workers a more equitable pay so that the MTA could hire and retain better people.
I definitly belive that the MTA should be paying the going rate for the skill performed. Some positions at the MTA are serverly underpaid as compared to the going rate, but the position of token booth clerk is on that is grossly overpaid.
MTA is not a public assistance agency. There are many jobs at the MTA that are way below what they deserve to be paid. I just believe that $20 an hour for a job which is essentially no more difficult then a grocery check out person is very generous. so generouse that going on strike is rediculous
"A study showed last year that in order to live comfortably in New York, you need to make $48,000 per year"
New York can be a very expensive place to live. For a single person $48,000 is more then enough to live a honest life. For a family it $48,000 is a small amount. Both spouses need to work in order to live very well. Many people choose to move out of the city inorder to cut thier living expense. Sulfork county on long island and Rockland county in upstate new york is home to many police, firefighters and teachers because of the amount of housse thier money buys
If we do not pay people for the value they bring to the table then their is no incentive to learn new skills. As a society where does that lead us
We'll make it exciting for you- Let's close all booths at 42nd street between Broadway and 8th Avenue and let you be the sole person they see. Stef and I will guarantee you will not be isolated. We'll make sure you get no lunch and let you work two shifts with no bathroom break. Enjoy!
I look forward to seeing your name in the Chief as a perfect score on the next S/A test.
From my observation at 34th street during the afternoon. people look into the tooken booth see no one there and head over to the MVM and buy a metrocard
No problem whats so ever
Got to commend the TA on the design of these machines
Funny, When I pass thru 34 Street I see people on line for the booth and no one waiting on line waiting to use a MVM. Are we talking about the same location?
Funny, When I pass thru 34 Street I see people on line for the booth and no one waiting on line waiting to use a MVM.
Some people are clueless.
Sorry to disapoint you, but in my line of work, 12 hour days are common. And they usually don't involve trips to the bathroom, time for idle chit chat, or even lunch.
Let's see how you like that.
Where?
If I remember correctly you have said you work in a bank. What position does not "involve trips to the bathroom, time for idle chit chat, or even lunch." ?
He counts the bank's money. 8-)
To G Train Rider - whyt dont you volunteer to do the work of all tellers at your bank and give up bathroom breaks, coffee breaks and lunch.also volunteer for a 2.3% pay cut. I'm sure you can do the work since everybody uses the ATMS.
Why are you even bothering? The person you're trying to "reason" with is not capable of that. Do it like a banker, "Next Window please." Now try THAT in a token booth. :)
"Next Window Please!"
Sounds like the only thing in common.
Unable to reason? So you know all about Brighton Express Bob, too.
Oh ... a wiseguy, eh? Nyuknyuknyuk ... :)
Even if you work in an office, tight deadlines and heavey workloads, endless meetings force you to skip lunch and hold it in.
Working for banks, wall street and consulting companies is very stressfull and time consuming. Many business people fly out to say a client in the morning. heading out to the airport for the 7am flight. At the client or branch office for 5-6 hours of meetings and fly home the SAME DAY. No overtime. 12 or 15 hours out of the house.. It is worse when you have to stay a few days. Yes all meals are expensable but you don't sleep in your bed and often work long hours to get the work done by the deadline. Not to mention taking work home.
Why do it. If you want move up or keep your job you do.
The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence
You may say $70,000 is alot of money. Add up all the hours the person in the suit that people on this board make fun of calling them snobs and the like and divide it by the hours and you will find out that the $21-$27 an hour tooken booth clerk with Zero skills is doing pretty well.
$42,000 spent wisely can go along way.
Maybe you should organize a union!
Lets seperate fact from hysteria.
Roger Toussaint hates management because he was fired about three years ago for insubbordination, etc. Roger would love nothing more than the follow in Michael Quill's footsteps and even go to jail - so long as he wins his place in history.
If you look at the last page of this year's TWU calandar, there is a group shot of many TWU members one is flipping the viewer a double-bird. Those are your hard-line New Direction activists. These are the people screaming strike.
The majority of TWU members range from highly dissatisfied with NYCT employment to very satisfied with their job. These are the people who may or may not go along with a strike. Whether they do or do not, the choice will not be an easy one. Heavy penalties on one side. Risking incurring the wrath of their co-workers if they don't. What would you do? The point is, that guy who's in the token booth may not be Albert Einstein or Albert Shweitzer or even Marv Albert but it's honest work. They are responsible for the revenue that they collect. At one time, they are subject to being robbed while emptying their turnstiles. Some have died when their booths have been fire-bombed. Some sit in a booth, alone, for an entire night in such great areas like Ralph Avenue on the A line. It's not the most desirable of jobs.
The NYCT is having trouble filling the open jobs. Restricted duty employees from other departments in various titles, are being re-classified to fill those vacancies. If the salary were as outrageously high for the demands of the job, why is the TA having trouble filling those slots?
I can understand your anger about the potential strike. It sure will make my life tougher. I an one of the TA managers who actually rides the train to work. I hate driving but will be forced into my car should there be a strike. Just don't blame the rank-and-file. They want what everyone else wants. I may not agree with their demands but they are entitled to try. Most are caught in the middle - having a strike forced upon them by a hostile union, management and the economic realities for post-9/11 NY City.
The TA needs a complete overhall from top to bottom. All in all the public is quite satisfied with the job the TA employees provide outside the occasioal bad egg. The public is not satified with how the TA spends our money like it is water.
The MTA has embarked on a major moderniztion effort over the past 10 years. New subway cars, buses, metrocards vending machines. Much more still needs to be done The Union rank and file should rise up to union leadership and dictate what they want. The union leadership and management should be partners in reshaping the MTA as it modernizes. Not advosaries It is quite unfortunite that unions are so politico and the case of Cand the TWU it has gotten out of hand.
I agree that Roger Toussaint is only interested in making a name for himeself and not in the general well being of the workers
Token booth clerks are not needed with the advent of MVM but MVM maintainers and computer network adminstrators are. The union should be pushing for quility retraing so that the former staion agents can obtain highe skilled higher paying jobs
The Various skilled crafts at the MTA should form thier own unions. Being lumped in with unskilled labor hurts the earning potetial for skilled crafts such as electrical, train operators, bus drivers, mechanics etc.
Nobody wants to work in a place where they feel they are not being treated fairly. If the MTA would modernize all aspects of its operations there would be more moeny to pay the remaining workers and still provide an affortable product to the public
If the MTA is bleeding to deathin red ink, why don't they take a page or two from the TWU 's list of proposals that can save the MTA money. (Then again, 347 Madison Ave and 370 Jay street, doesn't believe in such things.) One such idea is the elimination of contracting out station renovation projects and leaving NYCT in-house forces (Station Rehab dept.) to do the work. Since NYCT has a highly skilled and dedicated workforce than can do the job better (and at least on schedule or in some cases, early completion), they can save money this way.
Look at the list of stations NYCT station rehab did (and they were all completed on or close schedule, not the fiasco it took like 14th st/8th Ave complex):
Tremont Ave/IND
Queensboro Plaza
Church Ave/IRT
Bergen St/IND
81st Street/Museum/CPW
Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th Streets/Broadway Line
Franklin, Canal, Houston, Christopher, 18th, 23rd and 28th sts. (all 7th Ave Line)
36th Street/4th ave
Lorimer Street/Metropolitan Ave (L and G lines)
This is a partial list, not sure if the stations on the J, M and Z lines in Brooklyn were done by In-house or contracted out. If I miss anything else, don't worry.
>>>>completion), they can save money this way.
Look at the list of stations NYCT station rehab did (and they were all completed on or close schedule, not the fiasco it took like 14th st/8th Ave complex):
Tremont Ave/IND<<<
I *must* add that the TA did the renovation of this station without the addition of those stupid, slippery, floor tiles. Which are uneeded.
Just look at the 7th ave. IND station in Manhattan for an example of how F'd up those tiles are. They are buckled all over the place.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's why 7th Ave/53rd st station was done by an outside contractor and not in-house. Some contractors have a bad habit of screwing things up.
[Anyone could do the job. Anyone.]
Yeah, let's see you do it...preferably a midnight shift on the Canarsie line -- say Myrtle Avenue. You'd probably wet yourself.
[I am a banker, and yes very proudly have a Masters from NYU. Again, not brain surgery, but none the less well above a token clerking position.]
That's a matter of opinion...
[I have so many, many friends who are out of work and struggling, and along comes a bunch of really, uneducated thugs, who decided to hold the city hostage. This at a time when it is A) the holdiay season and b) people are struggling. Get it? Its really simple.]
Uneducated thugs? You'd be surprised at the education level of some in the employ of the NYCT. Just as a reference point -- there are legions of guys driving cabs who have Masters Degrees...so what's your point here.
[What the brainless drones in the union don't realize that for the selfish gains of a few and I do mean a few, you are going to screw so many people who rely on mass transit to even get to interviews. Fair? No way. Then you have this blow hard like, what's her name, Stef? The one who posts on the board who wants a Purple Heart for what she does. Screw her and the Union.]
What's HER name, Stef. Stef is a male....but you're too busy spewing your venim to notice...guess you must be new to SubTalk...
Myrtle Ave?? How about my stop on the L line???
Mike, if you're referring to Livonia Avenue, then forget it.
He wouldn't last 10 minutes out there.
Betcha I would.
It ain't brain surgery.
We're talking about dealing with the public (seems that goes under the category of customer service. Ooopps, I forgot. We don't have those rights as riders now, do we?), dispensing coins, counting money and doing paperwork.
Gee. I'm sure to get the Peace prize for that!
But I bet you couldn't give directions not only in the system, but the surrounding community to customers (Many a time I've encountered S/As who have helped me out in those areas). I'm sure you'll find fault with this statement also...so I'm ready for your tirade...
Livonia Ave. is a whole DIFFERENT world....I think you'd be sweating bricks if you were stationed there...
But I bet you couldn't give directions not only in the system, but the surrounding community to customers (Many a time I've encountered S/As who have helped me out in those areas). I'm sure you'll find fault with this statement also...so I'm ready for your tirade...
Want to bet? I give better directions to tourists than the agents. Who said you can go to Union Square by way of Brooklyn?
Livonia Ave. is a whole DIFFERENT world....I think you'd be sweating bricks if you were stationed there...
Sorry, Dude. I travel through East NY at 2 am. Nothing bothers me.....
[I travel through East NY at 2 am. Nothing bothers me.....]
That's the magic word 'travel through ENY'....but what about being stuck in a booth there for 8 hours and every character imaginable coming by...including turnstyle jumpers, homeless, kids f-ing with you for kicks, etc., ...could you still deal with it all? Doubt it...
That's the magic word 'travel through ENY'....but what about being stuck in a booth there for 8 hours and every character imaginable coming by...including turnstyle jumpers, homeless, kids f-ing with you for kicks, etc., ...could you still deal with it all? Doubt it...
Being in an armored booth does tend to make things a bit safer :) Besides, even a place like ENY is probably not as fearsome as people think.
But what if your pick is the Midnight tour at Broad Channel station? Then you have the definition of boredom.
Or AMs there, where two token clerks were burned to death not so many years ago when they stopped some teenagers from fare beating. Yup, a fun job that anyone can do.
Don't forget, the 2 clerks who died that day had nothing to do with the cops stopping the teenagers.
Absolutely correct!!! The three teens mistakenly thought that the token clerks had turned them in. I know that the girl got a break but I hope the other two are still building Cor-Craft furniture.
Ewww ... CorCrap. I've sat behind several of those that collapsed when the insufficient glue (wonder what happened to the proper amount?) let go. Something ELSE I don't miss about State service. :)
At least Broad Channel is safer than Livonia. Most of the people who get off there are changing to/from the shuttle and stay on the platform.
"Sorry, Dude. I travel through East NY at 2 am. Nothing bothers me..... "
Try getting off at East NY sometimes. Like Livonia, a different world.
Sorry, Dude. I travel through East NY at 2 am. Nothing bothers me.....
And, this one time, I drove past the projects too! I'm one tough cookie!
Geez, Mike, I shake in my boots whenever I'm near your 'hood...LOL!
Mr G train rider:
You are a banker? And you knock token clerks?
You are in an industry that Charges almost 20% interest on credit cards, but only gives about 1% on savings accountsCharges $1.50 to use an ATM so you can put a teller out of work Refuses to even give change of a dollar to a non-depositor nowadays Charges points when they can't charge any more interest on a mortgageIn other words, bankers are usurers or crooks. And you have the nerve to knock honest token clerks. I bet if I asked a token clerk for change for the parking meter he would give it to me without asking if I was a customer!!!
And as far as your post saying how they are so overpaid at $40,000 are you living in the past? I made double that as a police sergeant and had trouble making ends meet. And I do not live extravagantly either. I drive an '89 Corolla that I paid $300 dollars for. My trips are to Lake George & Saratoga, not cruises to the Carribean, and my eating out consists mostly of cheap Chinese Buffets one every 2 weeks. Between mortgage payments, Nassau property taxes, groceries and clothes for three, car insurance, etc it is hard to live on $85G's, let alone 40G's. My only luxury is a Harley that I bought when I was single and living at home.
By the way, did you know Stef has put in numerous hours of volunteer work at Branford for no pay? What volunteer work have you done, Mr fancy banker? And I don't mean community service for white collar banking crimes.
"I made double that as a police sergeant and had trouble making ends meet."
Mr. Rosen you must be a very poor manager of money. $80,000 a year is by no means a hugely large amount of money. With proper money management and a little frugal shopping techniques you should have been living quit well. $40,000 is not alot of money, but most token booth clerks do not have the skills to earn more anyplace else. They are overpaid only because the job they are doing does not warrent that kind of salary. Bus drivers and mechanics on the other hand are underpaid
With proper money management and a little frugal shopping
1) never pay full price for anything. It makes me sick to see people walking into the wiz, pc richards or any prvate store and paying the "asking price" for an item. Stores especially cell phone stores give huge discounts if you bargin with them. Radio shack was selling my verizon v60 phone for $225. I bought it at a local dealer for $0 after 50 mail in rebate
Example: Bought a sony DCR-PC9 mini DV video camera (yes the smallest sony made at the time)
asking price at sears $1299
Bought at sears for $910
How? sears and many large stores(comp usa, staples, etc) match any advertised price even those found online.
Bought the latest clothes at the GAP. Brought the receipt bak for a price adjustment when it goes on sale. It's store policy.
2) Buy a house or condo and stop and build some equity and reep the tax savings.
- Mortgage interest is tax deductable.
3) Buy your metrocard in $15 increments. Keep a fun pass handly if you antisapate using more then three rides in a day. use your credit card and earn money back or free stuff
Buy your metrocard in $15 increments. Keep a fun pass handly if you antisapate using more then three rides in a day. use your credit card and earn money back or free stuff
Police officers ride for free
Not after retirement.
No, you're wrong. My net pay was about 51% of my gross so I was really making a little over $40,000. That is because of taxes, social security, paying into pension, union dues (even though Sergeant is a supervisor there still is a union, the SBA), etc. And even though they repealed the commuter tax, NYC cops have to pay full NYC taxes as if they lived in the city because we were forced to sign an agreement for it upon being hired!! That law even makes us pay city tax on income earned outside of the city such as bank interest!! I do have to admit some of the deduction is for deferred comp and I'll eventually see it but it doesn't help now. Add about $9,000 in tax refunds to the net pay and my annual take home pay was just under $50,000. That is why I retired recently. My net pay with the pension is about the same so if I stayed I'd be working for nothing.
Do you really think $50,000 can support a wife and kid easily? My property taxes alone are $6,000. Although I never realized you can bargain in stores like you said those big items are not a sizable percentage of my spending. I do thank you though and will try it!!!
I do not believe I am a poor manager of money. I have an accounting and finance degree from Pace (albeit in 1975) and I keep track of every outlay in Quicken. Other than my mortgage I have NO debt whatsoever and pay my full credit cards each month. I would rather buy a cheap old used car than have car payments and full ins coverage. I pay extra into principal each month to reduce my mortgage. I think I actually do well managing my money.
Example: Bought a sony DCR-PC9 mini DV video camera (yes the smallest sony made at the time)
asking price at sears $1299
Bought at sears for $910
I *didn't* buy a Video Camera, and *I* saved $910.00
So PHFTFTFTFTFFTftftftftftftftftttttttttttttttt.....................
"I bet if I asked a token clerk for change for the parking meter he would give it to me without asking if I was a customer!!!"
Actually, I have had a clerk refuse exactly that request at a totally empty booth (i.e., no line of people behind me) many years ago. So I bought tokens one at a time until I had the change I needed. He was pissed but had no choice.
Every organization has its hostile bad apples. But you can't generalize from the few to everybody.
You probably ran into someone who had been "audited" recently. There's this strange ay-nel retentive quality about audits that insisted of token booth people years ago before MVM's that the "take" from the bucket" pretty much balanced out cash, completely ignoring that MOST people would buy TWO tokens somewhere and use the second one somewhere else. So many who had recently had an audit would get twitchy about making change. Once again, the occasionally mindless enforcement that in the MTA suggests that the lower you are on the food chain, the MORE we're going to accuse you of being a crook. But when I worked for the TA, I asked several why they got twitchy, and back then, that was the reason I was offered. Mattered not to them or to I, I merely flashed by card and badge and walked through the gate. No tokens for me. :)
Maybe the clerk at the booth didn't have that much change to give out. Sometimes they're low on quarters and no one got around to dropping off a bag of quarters.
Another reason: Sometimes the booth has to stock up on quarters for a rush period when they will go out faster than they come in. When I have enough, I gladly give change but if low then I have to save the quarters for those makign apurchase.
In that case you are supposed to call the supervisor at the start of your tour to bring a bag of quarters to the booth before the rush begins. Of course there is a difference between a supervisior saying "I'm Coming" and "I'm Here".
Once again eliminate the unnneeded token booth clerks and save on the then unneeded supervisor.
Of you need a quarter for a phone you should plan ahead and keep a suficent amount of change with you. Plus with the advent of rediculously cheap cell phones who uses pay phones anyway
Even the best cell phones won't work underground.
If you need to make a call and there is no agent there
and the payphones are vandelized,
you won't be making a phonecall!
Sometimes the booth has to stock up on quarters for a rush period when they will go out faster than they come in.
Another GOOD reason for raising the fare to $2.00!
Elias
How 'bout we put you in a token booth for eight hours at a busy subway station with no way to get to a bathroom? Oh and we'll make sure you drink lots of water, that way you have to go. And we'll do it during the rush hours so you can be there, by yourself, dealing with hordes of angry commuters who are pissed for one reason or another.
Or what about this? We put you in a cab on a Redbird train on the 7 in rush hours. We make sure the train is displaying both circles and diamonds that way people keep asking you whether it's a local or an express. When the cursing and the spitting fly, let's see how you react to it.
Or we could put you in the cab of a 2 train during PM rush hours when school lets out and when commuters are headed back home. Let's see what happens when your train gets in late because it got held once at a signal to let a 5 train cross in front of it and then again because a 3 train crossed in front. Let's see what happens when your train gets held up because riders on that same 3 train in front of yours keep holding the doors open and delaying service. When you get punk-ass kids and adults throwing snowballs at your cab window, let's see your reaction to that. Then at the end of your run, try telling your supervisor why you were late and hope he is understanding of it.
Maybe then you'll see why TWU workers want better pay and conditions for all the bullshit they must put up with. It's not so easy to go and get another job right now. Thank Osama bin Laden and Ken Lay, among others, for that!
Note:
Those scenarios described are a lot better than what a lot of other people are going thru...scrambling for jobs.
And if a conductor knew the train was a local or express, then what is the big deal? its his job.
How about negotiating in good faith? ooops, its the TW Union. That's an axymoron.
Screw the union.
"And if a conductor knew the train was a local or express, then what is the big deal? its his job."
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
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Homer: "No"
Bart and Lisa: "Dad, are we there yet?"
Homer: "No"
Can you do this job?
>>We make sure the train is displaying both circles and
diamonds<<
And this is he fault of RIDERS? If you don't want these questions, SET TE SIGNS CORRECTLY!
In my view, this little detail is emblematic of far deeper more serious stuff. Our fellow 'talker' Selkirk refers to 'geese'. Excuse me I no more or less than the workers am a human not a goose. The MUTUAL disrespect needs to go away and paying S/A's double what a similar job would pay in other situations does not help the cause. The fact that some s/A's have college degrees simply means they are "overqualified" for what is an unpleasantly managed cashier's gig. When and if the TVM's become more reliable and 'accepted', S/A's should be freed from the cash side of the business.
TWU would do well to spend some capital reminding New Yorkers of the rigors of the job on a regular basis. A picture of the vermin in a booth, info on the "unfair" discipline system could be communicated by media ads. Without "mass support" a strike is doomed.
Hey G Train Rider: Station Agents do more than 'count tokens'...even a simple mind like yours will realize that if you need directions in the subway system they'll be able to assist the customer (provided that a subway map is not enough). You must really have a hard on for Station Agents don't you?
Uh, no need to post YOUR name and address: I'll just look up 'Numb Nuts' when I visit you at Bellevue...
Doug:
I know you are better than that to respond to that lowlife maggot!
F' him and the horse he rode on!
Um, hate to tell you, dude, but half the token people have no real clue how to get from A to B. I've helped more tourists in a week than they average Port Authority person would in a year.
You want better conditions? Good for you. Don't hold me hostage.
You'd be a terrible hostage. We would have to physically restrain several members on his board from dispensing with the hostage, which would greatly weaken their bargaining position:)
If you want to talk about being a hostage, look at your (G) line, which is one notch above a shuttle in service. Why don't you channel that venom to get better service? The same people that are making negotiations difficult also cut your (G) TO BITS. Hint: It's not the TWU.
Correcting the last post I made.
Maybe that's why he's such an angry person? Running 4 car lengths every day instead of not being there in time can make you an angry person I guess.
Even 6 cars was hell. Gotta fight for the whole 8/10 cars if you're going to fight for the G.
How does one who is said to be working in a bankhelp more people in a week than a PA person? I wasn't aware that people go to a bank to ask for directions.
OK, no personal attacks. You have a right to your opinion, but you have no business personally attacking people that you do not know.
Stop immediately.
COmputer based system? Sure- You going to tell management to scrap the paper work that management wants.We dp not decide what paper work we do. It is manageemtn and what management tells us we must do or lose our jopb.
.
Why dont go give up coffee breaks, bathroom breaks and work with no lunchj. Oh yes- turn off the A/c and heat and have a vermin infested work place. Also- do not get sick. They'll come to your house or call you ro check up on you.
If we are on the phone- you goign to pay our salary when we hang up on supervision or if we are dealign with an emergency." I'm sorry p[erson stuck int he elevator, I can not talk on the phone"
or "Fire in the station? let is burn, I have a lien to deal with."
OF COURSE NOT! bette yet Take the next civil service test for transit and we'll see how long you last before you change your tune.
The job looks different from the other side of the booth.
I realize this is trying time for both sides but we are not unedeucated idiots.
I too have a Bachelor's degree as do many transit employees.
BTW_ for your job we are going ask you to clean up urine or feces from your work area alogn with vomit.
Do away with all the misspellings and I *might* be on your side.
Peace,
ANDEE
The grocery checkout person is under the same pressure and stress and only makes $6 an hour. In addition their are no barricade and no place to sit. I worked the job for a few days in high school and asked my boss to take back the $0.50 an hour raise and send me back to the stock room. One second out of focus and there goes money out of your paycheck.
Take a walk over to you local marshal’s store and see the BS the checkout girl goes through
Handling money and dealing with the public is a stressful job. That said, token booth clerks already make far more then the market rate for such a position(checkout girl, bank teller) plus have job security and an over generous health benefits. You must have known what you were getting into before you took the job.
Now do you deserve a raise for your pain and suffering? NO. Why? The MTA would be able to fill 100% of the positions even if they cut the salary 50%. In addition why should the ridding public have to pay because you choose not to study in high school and go to college and get a job that is more suited to your personality.
If I were a token booth clerk I would be happy to get out of the booth and do another job. I would not be a happy camper locked in a booth 8 hours day.
From the sounds of the working conditions there are major OHSA (Occupational Health and Safety) violations that if your union cared would have been suing the mta years ago.
You folks know so little about me - I graduated from College with a 4 Year Bachelor's Degree. I was on hard times, and took a civil service exam for clerk in December of '98. When Transit called me, I thought it was a good opportunity to get my foot in the door. With time, I could move onto bigger and better things. Gotta take the Civil Service Tests.
I knew exactly what I was getting into. My day wasn't always going to be easy. Some of my classmates quit, and didn't last as long as I have. The job has its quirks, but it's a good paying job (with health benefits), which is why I went with it.
We can debate why or why not Clerks should get raises. You don't think so? That's fine. I'll save my breath. Hey! I didn't suggest pay increases based on levels of productivity (thank you Bloomie)....
-Stef
Given the current economic circumstances nobody's getting raises in the private sector. Especially if their company has a huge deficit.
The TA is no different.
If the Union was smart they would do what the federal union did long ago. Federal workers have a set in stone compensation system that gives guarenteed raises based on time on the job plus addtioal raises for merit bonus's.
If I were a TA worker I would not turn down extra monies coming to me but if the pay was not covering the bill I would be looking for employment elsewhere.
I am currently studing for my graduate school entrance exams to move up the employment ladder. There are plenty of people working n all setors that have it much worse off then most MTA emplyee's.
If life in the private sector bites SO badly, hasn't it occurred to most folks that it MIGHT be time for a union? Nah. Everybody believes that the "trickle-downers" WILL ... but anybody yet notice that water has a distinct YELLOW color yet? :)
If life in the private sector bites SO badly, hasn't it occurred to most folks that it MIGHT be time for a union? Nah.
Well, I work for a major corporation that has both unionized titles and non-union ones. Right now the union folks have better benefits than the non-union ones but that's about it, and their jobs are strictly based on seniority - an idiot with 25 years will keep their job when downsizing hits, while the hard-working young fellow with all the good ideas but only five years of service will lose his. At least the downsizing in the non-union ranks has largely been based on the usefulness of the employee to the corporation. But I've lost too many good people who are in union titles because they didn't have enough seniority, and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. What's the union doing for its people? If they don't have a lot of seniority, it's watching their jobs go away, because the seniority system protects the fools and punishes the good ones, and my employer is eliminating as many union jobs as possible because it's the only way they can get rid of those who do just enough to get by.
I've been downsized myself, from another major corporation that claimed 16 years of my life, not because of any problems with my work but because my entire organization was eliminated by the company as a "cost-saving" measure, so I know what it's like to be out on the street looking for work (10 months of unemployment, 6 more of under-employment before I found my current job). But I'd never consider being part of a union. I take pride in my work, and I don't need anyone else to be an intermediary between me and my employer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give it to him, Stef and you made very clear points on what you're days are like. While I think you should get a raise, 24% is too much, the city can't afford it plain & simple, the workers may get less but its still a raise so whatever is offered they should just take it or leave it & if they leave it then tough stay without. Token clerks DO more than just sit in a booth for 8 hours like providing assistance and safety for passengers. He/she doesn't know what they are talking about with his/her ignorance, don't let it get to you keep doing your thing!
You may not like what I have to say. I am not suggesting that the mta does this. In fact a large redction in work force quickly puts a huge burden on the pension system (GM has this problem. They shrunk the company by nearly 1/2 thus the remaining employes contribution to the pension plan is lower then the moies it has to pay out to current retiree's thus huge discounts to increase volume of cars sold)
But if the TA was a private entity with a budget deficit, 3/4 of all station agents would probably have been the first to go.
1)There is no need to have multiple station agents at any one given station. Reducing station agents to one per station would nulify any safty issue.
2)During the day there are no need for station agents at all. Most stations especially in manahttan where there is no safty issue due to the shear volume of people using the station. There is someone to notify police if there is a problem. Whether it be another passenger, newstand person, station cleaner, train crew etc.
3)Plus PATH has not had any station agents for quite some time including busy stations like 34th street and the former world trade center.
Feel lucky you are not on the unemployment line. The MTA could have preposed as their first offer substancial layoffs as thier first offer. The riding public has accepted MVM. Especially foreign tourist and out of touners. All that needs to be added is software to give directions.
But if the TA was a private entity with a budget deficit, 3/4 of all station agents would probably have been the first to go.
Actually, if the TA was a private entity, you would have seen it plastered across the front of the Business Section of the papers long before Enron and Worldcom.
Thanks. I've said my peace on the matter and won't say too much more. You can't make a person change their way of thinking. However, there are certain things that need to be clarified. Clerks (as well as other Transit Employees) don't have it easy, and it needs to be spelled out.
If I were the G Train Rider, I might be upset as well, since I'd face an inconvenience. All I can do is offer an apology for any inconvenience that may occur during a proposed strike.
Raises? It's debatable. Certainly a compromise can be reached, it's a matter of when.
-Stef
That's a line too hard even for me to take. I think the TWU has legitimate beefs with managemnt. They just cannot use an illegal work stoppage in response. A functioning transit system is more important than anything the TWU might complain about.
Why has the TWU not made public any of the saftey and operatioal, and disiplary issues it wishes to get resolved.
If the public was aware of the problem. Maybe the public would not have such a negative opinion about most transit worker
to be honest there are quite a few rude, unprofessional transit employees out there from bus drivers to train crews and the like.
People remeber negative experiences much more then positive experiences.
In 2001 13,848 Disciplinary Action Notices were issued among 32,000 employees.
Show me another place where almost have of the workforce faces discipline in one year.
In 2001 13,848 Disciplinary Action Notices were issued among 32,000 employees.
Show me another place where almost have of the workforce faces discipline in one year.
I doubt you'd find many places in the private sector where even 10% of the workers have been disciplined in one year. Well, maybe in fast-food places and such, but certainly not in well-paying businesses.
It all goes to show that NYCT's disciplinary system is woefully flawed, based as it is on the proposition that workers cannot be treated like adults. Reduce the amount of petty discipline and labor-management relations will improve considerably.
BINGO ... one of the things that drove ME out of the state was the filing of grievances by coworkers of my working "out of title" in areas of expertise I had in the SAME pay grade that was not covered by a "line item" position (computer networking and support while in a general technical title) ... the trolls shafted me in order to keep the union happy. I walked. But the TROLLS got 75 "credits" for disciplinary action against ME ... I was disciplined 75 times in TWO WEEKS, and had I *failed* to do as told by supervision, I would have been in viloation of the TAYLOR LAW for "striking" and "insubordination." Yep, nothing like civil service. Even "Burger University" wouldn't try to pull THAT qwap ...
This is the one issue that the TWU can make a case as being unfair. Unfortunatley, they don't know how to use it to drum up public support. They simply ask for ridiculous raises, then use the spectre of a strike as blackmail. I can't find a single person out there who doesn't want to see the TWU busted if they call a strike for even one day.
I saw roger on NY1 last night. If he was my leader I would not feel all that confident.
The stike threat is not going to hurt pataki. He just got elected to another 4 years. Voters have short memories. Especially with Pataki's constant PR blitz's.
pataki claims credit for everthing that goes right in NYS whether or not he anything to do with it
This [petty discipline] is the one issue that the TWU can make a case as being unfair. Unfortunatley, they don't know how to use it to drum up public support. They simply ask for ridiculous raises, then use the spectre of a strike as blackmail. I can't find a single person out there who doesn't want to see the TWU busted if they call a strike for even one day.
I just can't imagine why the union hasn't brought up the discipline issue. It would be a way of getting some decent P.R. and might even help their negotiating position.
Asking for ridiculous raises isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's sort of the way negotiations often proceed - labor asks for the sky, management counteroffers with practically nothing, and eventually both sides come to an agreement. What the TWU seems to have done wrong is having raised the strike threat so early in the game. A strike is heavy artillery that doesn't come out at the beginning of the battle (okay, I'm metaphor-ed out!) Once again, I can't comprehend why they made strike threats at this stage.
If the descipline issue is so out of contro why not pick out the most crazy case and run TV dpots showing how poorly TA workers are treated by management
have another ad showing how tooken booth clerks have to pee thier pants because they can't leave the booth or face a major penalty. Show the public why they are so nasty and unhelpful sometimes
You then slip in the raise preposal but a more reasonable number.
THe TWU union is a bunch of amatures they totaly mismanaged the private bus lines strike.
They had a perfect oppurtnity to illustrate a point with the unfortunite deaths of track workers last month.
If the descipline issue is so out of contro why not pick out the most crazy case and run TV dpots showing how poorly TA workers are treated by management
have another ad showing how tooken booth clerks have to pee thier pants because they can't leave the booth or face a major penalty. Show the public why they are so nasty and unhelpful sometimes
You then slip in the raise preposal but a more reasonable number.
THe TWU union is a bunch of amatures they totaly mismanaged the private bus lines strike.
They had a perfect oppurtnity to illustrate a point with the unfortunite deaths of track workers last month.
The japanese aproach to car manufacturing that the big three automakers have adopted where employees were encouraged to suggest improvements and management was responcive to thier needs lead to a far better quility product. This is what is needed at the MTA.
This is what the Union's message should be to the public. This should be an ongoing relationship with the public. It may actually improve rider employee relations as well
I've got a question:
To how many employees were those 13,848 DANs issued?
David
Do you think a token booth clerk makes too much? If so post it here and then we'll see if it is too much money they are making and for the record it is NOT just token clerks that may go on strike it is all workers in the TWU. The token clerks provide MORE than just staying in the booth, they provide safety for the passengers, assist people when necessary and other duties so they are valuable. Think before you type irrational comments.
The MTA has been unfair to the workers and I don't know why they wait a few weeks before they may go on strike. The MTA had PLENTY of time to negotiate with the TWU instead they brushed them off. However, what they are asking for, 24% over 3 years is too high and the city can't afford it plain & simple. If it were me, I would have gave the city agencies NO raise and make the Sanitation workers take a pay cut so this wouldn't have happened. Should the MTA workers get a raise, yes but 24% absolutely not! Should they strike no way it would cause a catastrophe and would cost us $200 million+ a day and it would probably be worse than 1980.
Agreements never get done early. The fact that the MTA first preposal is a week before the contract expires is a normal negotiating tactic.
Blame your union for not making thier contract a campaign issue. It looks like the union itself is poorly run. They should have been laying out thier agenda to the public in an effort to win public support for thier effort.
The fact that they came out with an unrealistic 24% raise package when the TA has a huge shortfall and is about to impliment a huge fare raise show how out of tough with reality they are. In adddtion the average working Joe has seen huge increases in the premiums he/she pays for health insurence in most case far inferior to the packacge offered by the mta. The cost of medical coverage has risen 10% this year and is expected to raise 23% next year. So in fact if MTA employees don't contribute they are actually getting a rather substancial raise.
The unions only cost savings was to impliment Bus rapid transit. I could list ten ways to save money for the MTA and not negatively effect the average transit worker.
The union speaks of a deciplan system gone crazy. But lets here specifics other then how many deciplanary action occur last year.
The union needs to hire someone who knows something about marketing. The pipe fitters and steamfitters union has been marketing thier union for years. The UFT ran ads about classrooms in bathrooms.
The public apreciates their train being on time and not breaking down but a 24% raise demand or else has no public support!!!!
Ah, so in exchange for becoming a civil servant, I get to:
organize and be represented by an employee organization - strange thing is, I know plenty of people in the private sector who have done this;
go to mediation and arbitration in front of a three member board picked by the governor - who, oddly enough, also hand picks my ultimate boss. Can you say, 'The fix is in."?;
I'm still looking for something special
Nothing of what you quoted is available to private sector employees. If you read the whole Taylor Law, it lays out the processes set up as alternatives to strikes. Like it or not, it's the law. Comply or pay the price.
>>> Like it or not, it's the law. Comply or pay the price. <<<
It may be the law, but "Thou shalt not strike" was not given to Moses from God. This is a country that points with pride to a group of hooligans who tossed a bunch of tea into Boston harbor. This is also the country that lived through the noble experiment of the 18th Amendment, and even today pursues a "War on Drugs" although many Americans are trading with the enemy. And of course, who can forget Rosa Parks' refusal to obey the law. You may be able to point out to a group of German citizens that "it's the law" to have any law obeyed (and later hear "I was only following orders"), but a more logical argument is necessary in this country.
Tom
Because of unfair home-rule rules in NYC which completely favor management over rank and file that link you suggested applies to most of the state but NOT apply totally to NYC. For example arbitrators. The city reserves the right in most cases NOT to go to PERB for arbitration but to go to their own city paid arbitrators. (talk about conflict of interest) The NYC PBA (the Police union) fought to change the laws to allow them to go to PERB arbitators which were much fairer instead of NYC arbitrators and finally got the law passed in '97. Adolf HitlRudy Giuilliani took the PBA to court saying PERB was against home rule and overturned the law. Luckily the PBA was about 4 years later and PERB does arbitrate police dispute impasses. However most of the other city unions still go to city arbitrators.
SARGE, buddy! You're a LIBERAL STOOGE in your postings! I'm *PROUD* of your arse ... life was SO much simpler in the 70's ... you and I *BOTH* knew what PERVERTS were, and you and I could ARREST them if they did it in our FACE! Now, they're ELECTED and there ain't SHEET we can do about these CROOKS ... There are times, based on my POLITICAL and CIVIL SERVICE experience that I truly WISHED I had worked for Joey Gallo ... a MUCH fairer shake. :(
But yeah, BEND OVER, here comes JOE BRUNO ... and he's got a NIGHTSTICK *AND* whips and chains (he's INTO rubber and chains) ... and he'll NEVER screw with me for putting this out there, as I have three dozen WILLING "tattlers" of the female pursuasion, and FOUR of the "whoops, we won't GO there" pursuasion. Senator WHIPS AND CHAINS make you feel frisky ... sign ze papers ... there IS no "eagle Mills" fire department that had Bruno been Bill Clinton, would have given Ken Starr a CONVICTION ...
But I'll leave it here in the tease, I've had DOZENS of employees tell me tales of being female and being NEAR Joe Bruno ... and for their privacy's sake, won't TELL ... but I know why a certain FIRE DISTRICT doesn't need to BEG for cash from "The Joe" ... I know it all, and won't say ... ESPECIALLY if DSL comes to Albany County. But yeah, I could sink the phuck in an INSTANT ... but what's the point? Paturkey WON, and thus so did Bruno. Folks WANT republicans" OK ...
Giuliani ... Enjoy your love affair with your "city hole" ... means NOTHING. NYC went bankrupt in the 70's. The "Municipal Assistance Corporation" is *STILL* New York City's "government" ... You NEVER got it back! Bloomberg is just a puppet. So is the state's GOVERNOR. JOE BRUNO is your "government" under fiscal "martial law." But I digress ...
New York City NEVER got out of its "insolvancy" and is thus STILL a "ward of the state" IN New York City's "penintant position," The STATE STILL decides the outcome, and that's Joe Bruno ... here's yer gotdam ZagNut, Ossifer ... such IS the mentality ... but TWU is a STATE agency as of the MTA "merger of functions and subsidiaries" ... When *I* went to work for the "ta", we were part of the Holy Ronan Empire. We was "Staties," a concept COMPLETELY foreign to this Bronx boy. :)
The Taylor Law is hardly unjust.
Workers are forbidden from striking, so they lose something they have against management, and what restriction against management do they get in return (laws should always screw everyone equally).
In return for special rights and considerations which private sector employees do not enjoy, the law prohibits strikes by civil service employees.
What are these "special rights and considerations?"
The TWU is hardly fighting for anything more moral than money.
What is immoral about money? A fight for money is far more "moral" than many "moral crusades" that some people go off on. I'm not a big fan of the word "morality" anyway since its used frequently by the religious wrong.
I do agree with their assertions that discipline within the MTA is arbitrary and often unfair. However, nothing can excuse an illegal work stoppage.
That's the same argument that's used to justify the incarceration of people who break other unjust laws, like anti-drug laws, or underage drinking and smoking laws.
Actually, I see nothing wrong with the government incarcerating people who do break laws, unjust or not, and if the city feels that it should imprison all TA workers who don't show up for work, then they'll be fully in the right.
The city needs a functional transit system. Find another way.
Yes it does. Unlike the '99 strike scare, I am NOT looking forward for a strike this time. Nor do I think that one will actually occur.
Hell, if there is a strike, I'd like to see harsh action.
1. The Taylor Law is hardly unjust. In return for special rights and considerations which private sector employees do not enjoy, the law prohibits strikes by civil service employees.
Then what incentive exists for the MTA to bargain in good faith?.. If the transit workers obey the law and don't strike then what stops the MTA from simply stalling the negotiations and forcing the workers to continue working without a raise for years and decades even?
I'm sorry but I have to agree with the Transit Workers here - the Taylor law is one-sided, anti-labor, and unjust.
"Then what incentive exists for the MTA to bargain in good faith?"
In theory, that the Politicos who make the appointments at the top of the MTA are dependent on a well-run transit agency in order to get re-elected. A strike or job action is an embarassment to the elected officials, but one that is overcome with time. The bigger incentive is that unless the TA/MTA pay a reasonable wage they will eventually be unable to attract and retain good employees -- service will deteriorate and elected officials will be voted out.
"I'm sorry but I have to agree with the Transit Workers here - the Taylor law is one-sided, anti-labor, and unjust."
It is absolutely one-sided, but what percentage of TA employees didn't know (or should have known) about the Taylor law before taking the job?
It is only unjust if you accept the notion that collective bargaining on its face doesn't violate the anti-trust laws.
...Dah! We need more pro-management posters here. I'm making way too many posts that sound anti-union when I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around here.
CG
What I don't understand if the average TA worker feels underpaid compared to the Average LIRR worker why did they not apply for the LIRR in the first place. Stop complaining and change jobs
Apply for Lirr? Oh yeah forgot Lirr is hiring everyone that sends resume,Dude get a grip I am 25 been in T/A for 6 years Do you think I can pick up and switch Jobs just like that.LIRR is who you know and who you blow to get hired.By the way I love my job Being a C/R is great but why do I have to deal with managments B/S thats what most of us are complaining about.
LIRR tends to hire from Nassau/Suffolk residents (or MAY give them preference), although NYC residents can certainly apply.
BTW, if someone who lives in the Bronx, SI or Brooklyn signed on to LIRR it would be a real bitch to get to their job sites if they don't own a car.
IF your main issuse is money, then LIRR is your move. Many police and fireman live on long island and commute into the city
An extra $7 an hour may be worth your commutte
Then what incentive exists for the MTA to bargain in good faith?..
They have to, according to the Taylor Law. If they truly aren't, then the TWU can take legal action. Please remember that "good faith" is defined somewhat differently than TWU negotiators would like.
Correct ... once an "impasse" is achieved, there are a whole slew of procedures from "fact finding" to "arbitration." Meanwhile there's no contract and people have to show up "rady willing and able to work" ... I mentioned already that we got told on the news up here that IF there is a strike, the NYS Police and National Guard will be down there in a flash. Paturkey is *ITCHING* to take on his TWU (folks keep blaming Bloomberg when in fact the New York CITY Transit Authority was absorbed in to the New York STATE Metropolitan Transportation Authority MANY years ago and is no longer a CITY agency) ... this is Paturkey's little love shindig here ... and he's ITCHING to slap the union around. TWU "voted wrong" and retribution has ALWAYS been Paturkey's prime directive.
[TWU "voted wrong" and retribution has ALWAYS been Paturkey's prime directive.]
City residents also "voted wrong" - three times...
- In 1994, Pataki won the State, lost the City, and punished us by appropriating the city's sales-tax-for-transit funds.
- In 1998, Pataki won the State, lost the City, and punished us by agreeing to repeal the city's non-resident ("commuter") income tax.
- In 2002, Pataki won the State, lost the City, and WILL punish us in some way, shape, or form.
Don't feel bad, I live in Albany county. We voted wrong too. But just in case the good citizens of the OTHER place that voted wrong wonder why everybody ELSE was sucking up to the boy when he already had the election tied up, one must always bow and kiss the feet of the master. Or else. What FLOORED me though was hearing on the news that the State Police and the Natural Guard have been called up in anticipation of a strike. That's some pretty serious stuff. Then Bruno gets the Chinatown/Lower Manhattan enterprise zone money that was supposed to help rebuild lower Manhattan after 9/11 and where's it going? ANOTHER Wal*Mart for Rensselaer county. Geez ...
What is good faith Chris? The union brought their proposals to the table over two months ago, the TA didn't reply until recent with 0/0/0 over 3 years and 2.3% out of the employees pockets to pay for their own pensions. The TA is demanding to merge T/Os and C/Rs titles and the union isn't giving the TA a chance? If I was still working for the TA today, I'd walk, just as proud as I would have been if we went out in '99. Management disciplines half of their 32000 workforce every year. A little political discipline their way isn't going to kill them. The Taylor Law is supposed to cut both ways, but if the TWU could prove the TA did in fact bargain in bad faith, in court it would kill valuable time, allow for people to walk to work over the Brooklyn Bridge like they did in April 1980, and would take away the consequences of a possible strike, which is what the TWU really wants. No one wants to go out, but with the Christmas shopping season and cold weather imminent, it is the threat that must be in place to get transit workers a fair contract. 0% for 3 years, and cost the TA worker 2.3 for the 3 years out of pocket. Thats not good faith. Thats strike two. Next pitch on the 15th.
Hey, if it weren't for the Taylor Law, there would have been so many strikes in the different city agencies and it would have crippled the city very badly and I guarantee that there WOULD have been a transit strike in 1999. 3 years ago, they made all the talks of a strike just to grab attention but Roger Touissant looks like he don't give a shit about the Taylor law and the hefty fines imposed if he & the union elects to strike, look what happened in the summer the Queens privates went on a 7 week strike; they have more money than you think so don't think they would go 'bankrupt' so easily should this event occur. Mayor Doomberg says he has the resources ready should a transit strike occur. BTW, Doomberg's popularity has gone down to 31%, the 2nd lowest rating of all time for any NYC mayor.
I've had it with Bloomberg. His tax hike is beyond self-destructive. He should have taken a hard line with certain unions first.
He's your boy, like it or not.
Actually, Bloomberg was a Democrat. He just ran as a Republican
True, we didn't want him. Besides, in a couple years, if America isn't completely in the toilet, we can clean them out al;ong with term limits. Just think, if Giuliani was allowed to run for mayor again he would have WHUPPED Mark Greem. DOOMberg just squeaked in.
And Guilliani was a died-in-the wool Republican. I think you're looking too much at the parties and not enough at the issues. If Guilliani were still in office, we'd likely be facing a strike and hearing lots of war whoops from City Hall. If Dinkins, Koch or Greene were still in office we'd still be hearing much about a strike. Koch would be talking tough, Dinkins would be talking Tennis and greene would be talking from West Palm Beach.
Keep in mind, Roger Toussaint has a score to settle with management. A big score. His agenda also calls for him to be mentioned in history books - much the way Michael Quill is remembered. However, times are very different and Roger is no Michael Quill. But Roger will be Roger be it Bloomberg of Dinkins, Pataki or Mario.
The modern republican party is monolithic and agenda driven. In the past few days we have seen the rules for doling out committee chairmanships perverted into a reward system for adhering to bu$h's mean spirited hard right agenda. And since Senile ron, Judicial nominees are graded on many issues dear to the right wing, ignoring basic qualifications as long as their are right wing and young so they can spread their poison for a couple generations, at least.(Mass judicial impeachments are in order) When ANY republican rakes office it is a tragedy for America. We also need a combative personality like rush limbaugh to fight for what is morally correct.
John, your rhetoric does not serve you well. The Republican Party is very much like the Democratic party. Both are agenda driven. I just happen to agree with what the Republicans want to do with the money they take from me and strongly disagree with what the democrats want to do with it. That being said, yes, Ronald reagan is a pathetic soul right now. He has a disease for which there is no cure and also has some hideous symptoms. Unforthuately - each of us could suffer the same fate. However, during his presidency, he revitalized the US economy and oversaw the collapse of the Soviet empire. Now, democratic double-standards not withstanding, if you are going to hold George W. responsible for that which occurs on his watch then you have to give Reagan credit for what happened on his.
DEFICITS. At least Reagan was able to play chicken with the Soviets. IMHO, any president in the cold war period could have done the same thing. But only Reagan had the balls. Having said that, his presidency was an economic disaster.
Having said that, his presidency was an economic disaster.
The rich got richer... what's wrong with that?
It used to be in ages long ago, when welth was contained in gold coins, that there was a finite quantity of gold coins: If the rich had them, the poor did not.
But after this came the dark ages: and since the rich had all of the gold coins, the poor developed other ways of exchange. The Farmer said to the cobbler, "I'll give you two chickens for a pair of shoes."
In the world economy today, more money exists on paper, in computer records, than what ever was printed or coined since time began. Where did all of *this* money come from? It is a notionary value attached to the fruits of one's labors! It is like thaking the hours you have worked and putting them into your bank account. In theory (anyway) one can now amass wealth by *working*. Working with your hands, your labor, your mind, or your wealth. Everyone can do it, anybody can do it: you work for your living, you earn a living wage.
Well, as we all know, it is not quite that simple, but that, anyway, is the *model* of how it works (sort of). Do not complain that the rich grow rich: This is what they do, and this is what will happen for them! Of what concern is this to you? Be concerned that you have the opportunity to labor at a fair wage, and with fair benefits, for a fair employer who treats those who work for him well.
Social justice does not demand that the rich must be impoverished, but rather that the impoverished have the opportunities to grow and prosper.
All of this being said: the idea of trickle-down wealth did not work properly. The wealth poured into the system at the top, stayed there, as companies bought other companies, inflated their egos and their stock values, and then were crushed when the stock market fell and exposed not only their folly, but the fact that the cheated and lied to themselves, to each other, to the government, and to the people. For this there is and should be severe criminal penalties to be paid.
I think that it is time to try a trickle-up economy: Invest in people, in the infrastructure: Put people to work: It is only labor that can create new money! Invest not in perks to big business, but in the people and their cities. The econonomy and the fortunes of all (yes including the rich) will grow.
It is like trying to build bone mass by eating calcium supliments. You cannot do it. The excess calcium is excreted. Work and exercise that puts demants on the bones will allow the bones to use calcium (if it is available) and will build the bones and their structure. Only the labor and the stress will require the bones to take up the calcium and build new mass.
Elias
I like your post.
The rich got richer... what's wrong with that?
Wealth has become increasingly concentrated in the upper strata of society. This is to the DETRIMENT of the rest of the population. The middle class is rapidly shrinking.
It used to be in ages long ago, when welth was contained in gold coins, that there was a finite quantity of gold coins: If the rich had them, the poor did not.
Regardless of what the medium of exchange is, there is still a finite amount of wealth.
If the rich have more virtual Dollars, it is possible for the poor to have the same amount, but if there are more Dollars out there, then each dollar is worth less than it was before, and the poor people with the same amount of $$$ have less of it.
In theory (anyway) one can now amass wealth by *working*.
That works in theory, but some of the wealthiest members of society make money by sitting around on their asses and letting their trust funds grow.
BAN INHERITANCE.
There are some who actually work and buy and sell the right securities and manage a company well, but a lot of the richest people in society are just plain thieves. The recent corporate scandals prove that.
This is what they do, and this is what will happen for them! Of what concern is this to you?
It just so happens that the rich are becoming richer at a disproportionate rate relative to the rest of society. We are entering a new gilded age. Let them eat cake!
Look at the inheritance tax: Best tax that could ever exist (the only people who pay it are dead!), and those damn Republicans are getting rid of it.
I would raise the inheritance tax to 100%. The money would not be used to benefit government programs, but rather the assets of the deceased would be DELETED. They would cease to exist. NOBODY, no matter what socioeconomic class they are in deserves to benefit from the fruits of someone else. If these children of rich people want to remain rich, maybe they should do the same thing that their parents did to get up there instead of being all lazy and waiting to have everything handed to them. Not all heirs are like that, some deserve what they get. They also can succeed well enough without inheritance.
It is only labor that can create new money!
No. Resources can create new money. Labor is a resource, but so are a lot of other things.
If you allow the rich to get disproportionately richer, then eventually the poor will have nothing to lose and they will storm the Bastille, then the rich will lose everything.
Look at the inheritance tax: Best tax that could ever exist (the only people who pay it are dead!)......
Suppose your father owned a small grocery store, say on the corner of Bergen and Bond....
Suppose he was Ill, maybe in the nursing home, and you were running the store... It is your only source of income. Perhaps you are living in the apartments above the store.
Now suppose your father dies.
Now suppose the government comes and takes the store away from you, and tosses you out of your job and out of your home...
And you call *that* fair?
It does seem to me that more poor and middle class *Working* people will be hurt by this tax that you support, this tax "that only the dead people pay".
I think you need to rethink your economic theory.
Elias
Chill out. The first $600,000 is exempt from being taxed.
This tax mainly hits those who don't have an inheritence plan or die suddently. Inheritence tax planning is big business for accountants and lawers.
One notable case is gene autrey of the california angels who's family had to sell the team to pay off the tax. He died unexpectedly.
This tax mainly hits those who don't have an inheritence plan or die suddently. Inheritence tax planning is big business for accountants and lawers.
So, you are telling me that those who have taxible money, and a little bit of foresight can avoid this tax entirely?
That seems, quite reasonable...So, what *is* the point of this tax, other to impress the poor people into voting for the legislators who favor this worthless tax.
You know, I think that I *agree* with collecting more more tax revenues, and yes from the wealthy, after all the *are* the ones who have the money. But I think that you are so married to the "Democratic-Party-Line" that you cannot see the forest for the trees!
1) The graduated income tax will NEVER go away, because that is a political imposibility.
2) The higher tax rates ought to come down somewhat (It does not hurt to appease the rich before you collect more tax from them).
3) I think that ALL LOOPHOLES *MUST* be closed and eliminated. Everybody uses the short form: You earned x$ your tax is y% you pay x*y$. (PERIOD) Thank You. This existing nosense of deciting how much you earned after expenses, loopholes and etc. is what is killing *you* while letting the rich off the hook!
4) Corporate taxes are a FARCE! Just look at how much tax CSX paid last year. For the last six years. DROP the corporate tax rate to 1/2% and then collect it on GROSS INCOME, not on declaired profits, or after LEGAL bookkeeping machinations: You touched the money, you pay the tax. (PERIOD) (Use the SHORT FORM) and pay weekly!
The Republicans can claim that the tax is UNFAIR (and it is) and they will continue to ask for lower rates (as if that meant something), but you will not catch them asking for *real* tax reform, because *that* will cost them!
We have tried trickle down, and found out that it was a rich scam (in fact if not in idea). Now lets try *trickle-up*. Collect the taxes, and put them to work, building the city and its infrastructure, strengethening the millitary and intellegence, building roads, and oh yeah, lets find some way to support schools and health care too!
All of that money will trickle up into the corporate treasuries anyway (where it can be taxed again), but it will pass through many hands first, and improve the lot of the people on its journey.
Elias
One notable case is gene autrey of the california angels who's family had to sell the team to pay off the tax. He died unexpectedly.
He died a few days after his 91st birthday. Sorta hard to see how that could be "unexpectedly."
Well he died of a heart attack or something like that. He failed to properly plane his estate thus his family had to sell a large portion of the team to pay the estate tax bill
I do not need to rethink my economic theory.
The first $675,000 is exempt. I believe this has now been raised to $1,000,000.
If you have assets worth $675,000, then you are no longer "working class" or "poor." If you do not have enough cash to pay the tax, you can sell a share of the store, or sell the whole thing.
You will then have more money than the majority of people in this country could ever wish to lay their eyes on. More than enough to pay an inheritance tax.
Even if this corner store was your only source of income, why should YOU get to become the proprietor of it when it was your father who worked hard and saved in order to be able to buy his own business?
People are not entitled to reap the fruits of the labors of others.
"If you have assets worth $675,000, then you are no longer "working class" or "poor."
No neccisarily true. $675,000 in assets at one death is not that much money. Concider the built up value of one's home and both husband and wife working, and putting money into 401k's and IRA's
Many people remain poor because they are LAZY and don't know how to properly manage thier money. The sure fire way to break out of the lowere levels of society is to work togethr as a family to push each other up. One man may not be able to move a large boulder, but a goup of men and women can.
Family must work together to acheive thier dreams.
My dad top pay when he retired 7 years ago was $43,250 including overtime and interest on his cash (non-ira, 401k) investments. We live in a modest home and were able to go on family vacations plus he paid for all three of my brothers and sister college educations. HOW? My grandfather lent us enough money for a downpayment on our home. The moeny was paid back, but the cost savings due to not having to pay rent and the mortgage interest deductions allowed him to save money. My parents net assets exceed the $675,000 figure
Poor is a mind set not a assets worth.
Sure fire ways to remain poor no matter your salary?
1) use layaway - Why give a store an interest free loan
2)Lifelong apartment renter.
3)Don't contribute maximum amount to retirement savings account (401km 457b, ira) especially if you are single or have no kids
4)Don't work hard every day to move up the employment latter. If you are a police officer you should be pushing for sargent. A tooken booth clerk push for bus driver or conductor etc
Sure fire ways to remain poor no matter your salary?
1) use layaway - Why give a store an interest free loan
Layaway's not such a bad deal. Now, using credit cards all the time, that's a fine recipe for financial disaster.
Layaway is a bad ideas because it generally means that you do not have the money for the item you are buying. People put money down on layaway items for a month or more instead of putting money in the bank. Because no money is in the bank they end up paying a check casher every week to cash thier pay check. The the cycle continues
Actual credit cards save you money if you use them responcible. Unfortunitly it all comes done to being responciple. Of course you should only spend what you can pay off when the bill comes due. In addtion many credit cards give cash back, extended terms or rewards for using them.
Its all about sensible money management. Most people just don't know how to manage thier money and thus are always out of money right before payday. During my days working for a city agency. I made the same amount of money as some of my coworkers yet they were always crying over money and I lived comfortable. Many of my co-workers squandered money foolishly and cried when they had none. One lady bragged to everyone about the hundred dollar sneakers she bought her 4 mounth old son and cryed that she was underpaid. One must spend within thier means. Using layaway generally means that the iten you are buying is out of your means. Why lend the store money. Save up and buy the item. I know it sounds nit picky, but one does not know how to manage money if one spends all his/her money all the time.
A fool and his money are soon partying
Now, using credit cards all the time, that's a fine recipe for financial disaster.
I use credit cards all the time, even for small purchases at the pharmacy. I also pay the bill in full before the due date printed on the bill.
How is that a recipe for financial disaster?
I agree with you. As a matter of fact I use my cards to keep track of my budget, along with Quicken. Each of my cards is for a specific thing, one for gas, another for groceries, another for dining out, etc. Then I could figure out exactly what I paid for a certain thing for the last year. I also pay each card in full so I never pay interest.
Its when you use credit cards strictly for credit it becomes recipe for financial disaster.
Most credit cards offer bonus points, cash back or other useful items.
GM card 5% off on all purchaces towards buying a GM product
Sony card - earn points to by movie ticket, sony products or blockbuster movie rentals
Shell mastercard - 5% cash rebate on all shell gas purchaces. 1% on all other purchaces
Over the course of a year you earn yourself some nice extra cahs or free stuff.
I spend cash only as a last resort. I was able to get $3500 off the last car I bought by simply using my credit card to pay for everything from a pack of gum at CVS to my college tuition.
Think twice before you walk up to the station agent to buy your metrocard. Use the MVM and earn some money back. I believe the MTA is running an add about charging your way to a free vacation.
Use the credit cards to make purchases and don't pay the bill at the end of the month. The balance goes up and interest charges are added. One day you find your balance had doubled because of the interest charges. Instead of cutting back on purchases and paying off the bill, You open another account and use that to buy your purchases and on and on.
I'm not accusing you. Just answering your question of a financial disaster.
Reminds me of a customer I dealt with about ten years ago, back when I was involved with a hobby shop in North Carolina... older gentleman, probably in his early to mid-70s... buying a new transformer for his Lionel set at Christmas time, pulled out a huge folding stack of credit cards... took until card number eight or nine before we got one to go through. None of the denials gave the "confiscate card" message, though, so it looks like he was simply over his limit on all of them. I'd hate to see his bills!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CHAPTER 7 CANDIDATE.
>>> CHAPTER 7 CANDIDATE. <<<
Until the new Republican Bankruptcy law is enacted. It makes it very difficult to shed credit card debt.
Tom
You are correct, but that wasn't my point.
Peter said "using credit cards all the time, that's a fine recipe for financial disaster." I gave a perfect example of how that is not always true.
You gave an example of when it is true.
I signed up for a card which offered 0% introductory APR for the first 6 months about 9 months ago. I only paid the minimum balance for those 6 months. The only time I paid more was when I approached the $1000 spending limit. I also transferred balances from other cards because that was free too.
When the 6 months expired, I paid off the bill in full. No finance charges whatsoever.
Using credit cards all the time is not a sure recipe for financial disaster. Not using them is foolish and irresponsible, especially when you can collect bonuses and keep the money for a few more weeks to collect interest (and fewer trips to the ATM).
Like everything in life it is about personel responcibility.
1)use your credit cards wisely nad be rewarded
2)Pick a worthy goal and work hard to acheive your goal in life and you shall be rewarded.
Those who have learnerd to use debt wisely have been rewared. Most busiess in this country involves borroing money and using the extra capitol to make money.
Large stores do not pay cash for the inventory they have in stock. They either buy the item net 30, net 90 or borrow money to cover the purchace of items for thier store. Real estate is the same way. Developers borrow moeny with thier futer rent rolls as collateral.
>>> Sure fire ways to remain poor no matter your salary? <<<
Each of the your points are not absolute, and depend upon the particular situation. For instance:
>>> 1) use layaway - Why give a store an interest free loan <<<
If you are buying something now that you will have no immediate use for, like camping gear or patio furniture, you pay less than the full amount now and have the store hold it until you need it.
>>> 2)Lifelong apartment renter. <<<
The important thing is the housing cost. If you have a better investment than the long term real estate investment of owning a home, like buying rental properties, then renting at a lower cost may be better.
>>> 3)Don't contribute maximum amount to retirement savings account (401km 457b, ira) especially if you are single or have no kids <<<
Again, it all depends upon your alternative use of the money. If you have a better investment, go for it while you are young, and build capital.
>>> 4)Don't work hard every day to move up the employment latter. If you are a police officer you should be pushing for sargent. A tooken booth clerk push for bus driver or conductor etc <<<
This could be the worst thing of all. Usually no one gets rich working for another. (Professional athletes excluded.) When I started in an entry level job as a young man, I lived a very minimal lifestyle and accumulated capital. The stock market opens at 7:00 A.M. on the west coast, so I went to my broker's office everyday for an hour before I went to work and studied the wire service copy and spoke with my broker regarding his recommendations. I spent at least two hours every day after work going over the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and Business Week, and studying charts of various stocks. Within six months I was earning an amount equal to 80% of my salary trading both long and short, from the market. Then I got a promotion to an exempt position with a 200% raise. From that time on, I no longer had time to tend to investments and spent all my time on the job, taking work home, and shifting my investments to long term positions. If instead of concentrating on my job, I had stuck to investing, I would probably be far ahead financially.
Tom
"If instead of concentrating on my job, I had stuck to investing, I would probably be far ahead financially"
In essense you studing the business journal was in effect trying to move up the ladder whether in a company or on your own. What I ment by the comment was that many people such as many TWU memembers take a job as a tooken booth clerk. An unskilled job with no upward potential. Ten years from now they are still working the same job with no upward potetial. If the job salary was no enough to live on now it will still be not enough to live on ten years from now. IF that person does not work hard learning a new skill to get a better job or find some other way to earn extra money they will always remain on the lowere end of the food chain.
If you work hard in this country to learn marketable skills you will make a nice salary. I supported myself for 8 months from OCT 2001 until about June 2002 trading stocks. Since I began working I too have not had the time to do the needed reasearch to keep on top of riskier short term postions. I was lucky, i put nice bets on telecom over the summer, I bought lucent at $0.60, sonus networks(SONS) at $.19 and AOL at $9.50. Up larger on all three
"NOBODY, no matter what socioeconomic class they are in deserves to benefit from the fruits of someone else."
I disagree. If everyone works completely for himself and herself, then your opinion would have more truth for it. However, nobody can do everything. Thus, we HAVE to benefit from the fruits of others' labors, unless we're willing to become a Daniel Boone or a Davey Crockett who lives out in the wilderness. How much of New York City is the product of the labor of your fellow citizens? I'm willing to bet more than 99.99% of it is.
I disagree. If everyone works completely for himself and herself, then your opinion would have more truth for it. However, nobody can do everything. Thus, we HAVE to benefit from the fruits of others' labors, unless we're willing to become a Daniel Boone or a Davey Crockett who lives out in the wilderness.
No. Every person should work completely and entirely for themselves. The point of TRADE is that you can work on one thing and benefit from something else of equal value. Nobody should benefit from the fruits of someone else's labors. That means that YOU have to work to make money to buy a good or service that someone else provides.
With inheritance, people are born into their financial windfall and do not have to work for it. That is a form of aristocracy.
With inheritance, people are born into their financial windfall and do not have to work for it. That is a form of aristocracy.
So what?
Be not impressed by the wealth of others.
Nelson Rockefeller could not buy better medical care than anyone else, and so he died.
Attend to your own needs, your own peace, safety, advancement, and tranquility, and give not a thought to what others have.
Elias
Ah men.
People sometimes corolate moeny with happyness.
One must find what makes one happy. Believe me money is never that thing
Hey, Voice of Reagan, Happiness is not the issue. Unaccountable dynastic wealth is.
Hate to break the news to you but $670,000 is not unaccountable dynastic wealth. If you believe this is so then you are very small minded.
No, Id cap inheritances at $20 million. Hell,$675,000 isn't even a decent middle class retirement.
Nelson Rockefeller died in the stirrups. But he went out with a smile on his face. His wife Happy wasn't too happy with the news though. As they said in the papers, "died suddenly" ... probably might have gotten medical attention in time were it not for his ... ummm ... circumstances at the time, and the need to ... ummm ... get his "date for the evening" out of his office.
Be not impressed by the wealth of others.
Nelson Rockefeller could not buy better medical care than anyone else, and so he died.
Perhaps if Megan Marshak (literally) had been better at getting out from under difficult situations, Rockefeller would have lived may more years.
Heh. Forgot her name - thanks! :)
>>Nelson Rockefeller could not buy better medical care than anyone
else, and so he died. <<
WRONG
we all will die, BUT,The actuarial life expectancies, infant mortality rates etc, are much worse for the poor , Black, Latino segments of the US than for the super rich who have funded entire medical research facillities. The asthma rates in neighborhoods with high roach infestations and large particulate pollution rates are higher than in wealthy suburbs.
Those children will not live to go out as Nelson did because they won't live that long. Remember, this is the country where your pre-existing condition PREVENTS you from buying health insurance, or may cause you not to be hired because you will cause your employer to be health insurance blacklisted.
Aw, Shucks, Rocky went out with a smile on his face, Megan saw to that. 8->
Assuming Rocky had his "moment" before it was over. 8-)
Attend to your own needs, your own peace, safety, advancement, and tranquility, and give not a thought to what others have.
As a member of society, it just so happens that things that affect others' peace, safety advancement and tranquility also affect my own. Otherwise, being completely self-centered and unapologetic about it, I wouldn't care. But when someone else's welfare affects my own, I have to care.
Whenever wealth becomes concentrated in a smaller percent of the population, either some cataclysmic event rectifies that (depression robbed the rich, WWII revived the economy on a more balanced basis), or the peasants rise up in armed rebellion. Then my own peace, safety, advancement and tranquility are threatened.
>>> Nobody should benefit from the fruits of someone else's labors. <<<
And did you work for everything you have received these past 18 years? I suspect that at some time you accepted things that were provided to you by the efforts of your parents. Now if it is O.K for them to give you things while they are alive, why can't they give you anything when they die?
Tom
Regardless of what the medium of exchange is, there is still a finite amount of wealth.
Here, your are wrong. the amount of money is fungible, it *does* increase and decrease with outside pressures. Usually the government controls this by the prime interest rate charged to banks. But at the moment it is about as low as it has ever been. Ergo: The Governement CANNOT give the money away!
Why?
*Confidence*
Money is labor, but the circulation of money is Confidence! If there is a lack of confidence the money does not circulate, and it collapses. Each time money exchanges hands, someone else has EARNED it. And if *he* has confidence, he will spend it and another will have earned it. (And the tax man collectith from each trasaction!) Given a robust eceonomy, the taxman will collect money on your dollar several times a day! If you do not spend it, he does not, and the man who would have sold you a product is out of work! And Confidence goes down the Coney Island Station urinal (Just to keep vaguely on topic).
Why do you suppose Califorina is bankrupt overnight. Confidence. People are holding their money and not spending it. The government cannot collect taxes on money that is not spent. Then government service go down the tubes, and the government tries to raise taxes, which alienates those who still pay taxes (The middle class... for as we have seen the poor are too poor to pay, and the rich have loopholes.) and those taxes will drive the Middle Class into the Republican camp, and pushes the *haves* further to the right.
This polarazation crap that drive the left further to the left and the right further to the right is not helping matters. Just when we should pull and work together, we find ourselves fighting each other as if we were the enemies!
Mark me... It will get worse before it will get better, and there aint squat that you or I can do about it.
Sorry, that's the world from my point of view.
Elias
>>> Here, your are wrong. the amount of money is fungible, it *does* increase and decrease with outside pressures. <<<
Although the supply of money may increase and decrease, the amount of wealth (the total of all goods and services) remains relatively constant barring a breakthrough in technology which increases productivity. Therefore a concentration of wealth in a small portion of the population reduces the amount available to rest of the population. When the rich get richer, the poor do get poorer.
Tom
>>> I would raise the inheritance tax to 100%. The money would not be used to benefit government programs, but rather the assets of the deceased would be DELETED. They would cease to exist. NOBODY, no matter what socioeconomic class they are in deserves to benefit from the fruits of someone else. <<<
Huh? You cannot delete money. Dollar bills are an obligation of the government. If any number of bills are destroyed, the government becomes that much richer. I assume you would destroy all personal property, so no one would get to wear the deceased's clothing, and no one would have such things as a family bible handed down through the generations. And you obviously cannot delete real property. It must be sold or transferred to the government. (I'll leave it to you to picture the widow and children being turned out into the cold when the homestead in Astoria is confiscated.)
The idea that nothing could be transferred from one generation to another is too foolish to be given any serious consideration. But taxing amounts greater that $5 million at a relatively high rate should still leave all heirs reasonably comfortable while reducing concentration of wealth.
Tom
Everything would be sold leaving only the money to be deleted.
If the wife (or husband) survives, then she (or he) gets to keep everything. Also if there are small children. If the only children are adult children and the spouse is gone, there is no need for the money to pass to the next generation, it would be buried (figuratively) with the deceased.
"If it wasn't for people disobeying the laws, you'd be speaking English now"
Errrr - Piglet, the last time I looked we were speaking english.
Give my regards to Rod Serling.
They had taxation without representation
We have taxation with OVER REPRESENTATION
They had taxation without representation
We have taxation with OVER REPRESENTATION
There! I *knew* You and I *could* agree on something! : )
Errrr - Piglet, the last time I looked we were speaking english.
You're responding to the wrong post.
All I said is that if people didn't disobey the laws, he would be speaking English.
Where did I say that if they did disobey the laws (as they did) that he wouldn't be speaking English?
If Guilliani were still in office, we'd likely be facing a strike and hearing lots of war whoops from City Hall.
If he were still in office there'd be NO strike, cuz he'd have crushed the life out of any attempt to do so. Unfortunatley for NYC, he's not.
He wouldn't have the authority to do so. MTA is a state agency. It is up to paTURKEY to smash the TWU. And he will. But it will be a pyrrhic victory.
Guliani is more of a Republican than Bloomberg ever was or will be. Your political rantings are now so convoluted that I can't even understand them to ridicule.
Yes, Doomberg is a phony, Mark Green is a phony. Giuliani is a real Republican. Real beats fake every time.
Chris, on this board his name is Doomberg ;-). His problem is that he is not a politician, he's a businessman and while his business expertise is needed he's making some VERY poor choices like wanting to close 8 firehouses, look what happened the last time they closed firehouses in the 70's. Anyway, this strike would be destructive and would cause astronomical problems in the future.
If you like him you may call him Bloomberg but I call him DOOMberg
Or Gloomberg or Wimpberg, I've seen both and there's probably more. Hey, don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.
"My country 'tis of thee" *is* "God Save the Queen" with the lyrics changed. Hmmm. :)
That reminds me of when I visited London in 1978 with my college marching band. We played at Wembley Stadium before a soccer game and were treated to a British tea afterwards in the restaurant they have there. Anyway, a military band marched onto the field and started playing God Save the Queen. Meanwhile some of our band members started singing My Country 'Tis of Thee and the rest of us said, "Nooooo!!!! Wrong words, guys."
Heh. Should we even BOTHER to tell people that our Shrub is a descendant of the WINDSOR family and therefore our "King" is BRITISH? Yep, we actually allowed our nation to be taken out from under us. That was one of the things those cranky militia types were clammoring about when daddy was King. Just gotta love it. I know it amuses me to no end.
Well, he's not native American, that's for sure.
Should we even BOTHER to tell people that our Shrub is a descendant of the WINDSOR family and therefore our "King" is BRITISH?
And would you also be surprised to know that Bush's native language is ENGLISH? What horror!
Please, if everybody had to have pure 100% North American ancestry to be the president, then nobody would be president.
Even the Native Americans migrated here from Asia.
Not EVERY "Brit" can trace their lineage to the slack-jawed royalty, but if having a LEGITIMATE "King" isn't a problem to you, no problem to me. That "revolutionary thing" WAS unnecessary, God Save the Queen and all, but PLEASE don't irritate me again with your "occupied Brooklyn" nonsense if this is truly the case. :)
"Roger the shrubber" of "Holy Grail" fame would not be merciful. Moo. "Fetchez La Vache!" :)
It's nice to know that you can only bash me not by using what I said against me, but instead by putting words in my mouth.
Since US Citizens are not allowed to hold any sort of title of royalty or peerage, as a US Citizen, Bush or any other US Citizen, even you with your 100% pure North American Ancestry cannot be a "King."
You just find every lame excuse to bash Bush. Next you'll be telling us he's really an alien from the planet Marklar.
"You just find every lame excuse to bash Bush"
like there arn't plenty of valid reasons?
like there arn't plenty of valid reasons?
There are, and often he uses the good ones.
Sometimes he just runs out of ideas and comes up with bullshit like this.
The Taylor law is not unjust. As a employee of the MTA you took an oath to provide a public service to the riding public of NY. In return you have a stable job whith little possibility of being layed off and the assurance that your penion funds will be thier when you retire
It about time ta emplyees get a reality check. Crains New York buisness is reporting today that
"Total health benefit costs in New York City rose 10% in 2002 to $6,486 per employee, according to a survey released by Mercer today. Employers expect a health benefit cost increase of about 13% in 2003"
Therefore NYC transit employees are getting about a 20% raise by not having to pay for a portion of thier health insurance premiums that the rest of the working public has too.
As a employee of the MTA you took an oath to provide a public service to the riding public of NY.
As a NON-employee of the MTA I never took any oath.
I have a hard time making up my mind with respect to the threatened strike. As other Subtalkers may be aware from my prior postings, I am strongly anti-union. As far as I'm concerned, they're an anachronism and a major drag on regional economic growth. Even so, I am also somewhat disturbed with the fact that the Taylor Law makes public-employee strikes illegal. If that's a hypocritical position, so be it.
I am not much enamoured with unions either, and the only two times I belonged to one, there was no benefit for my buck that I could see.
ND is a right to work state, and so there are no closed shops. You can join a union if you wish, but you cannot require others in your shop to join or to pay.
I can see both sides, but think that non-union may be better. Heck, squash the union, and put your dues back in your pocket and you will have more income than the raise that you might get.
OTOH.... You *do* need some sort of solidarity in order to push for the changes and improvements that you clearly need in your working condition.
There *is* a better way to do this, you know... it will never happen, because of the varrious vested interests... but there are other ways.
Elias
I am pro-union.
The executives have their united front, the unions need their own. In good economic times, most employees will be treated well because they can always flee to another job. Those jobs where the workers are truly disposable have mostly been automated away.
However in bad economic times, the company has more incentives to screw the worker. A large reason why this doesn't happen in the occasional recession nowadays is because of a number of laws, laws that would not have existed had their not been unions and labor leaders fighting for them.
I mostly believe that REGULATION is an impediment to economic progress.
During the rapid expansion of the industrial revolution, workers were treated like shit. If there were no organizations fighting for the rights of the workers, they'd still be treated like shit. And if there stops to be organizations to fight for the rights of workers, they will again be treated like shit.
Even if you think that laws are good and make unions obsolete and that that is a good thing, do you seriously believe that plutocrats down in Washington and the fifty state capitals would have given a flying fuck about workers had there not been huge organizations mobilizing voters and giving bribes campaign contributions bribes to the politicians?
"However in bad economic times, the company has more incentives to screw the worker. A large reason why this doesn't
happen in the occasional recession nowadays is because of a number of laws, laws that would not have existed had their not
been unions and labor leaders fighting for them.
I mostly believe that REGULATION is an impediment to economic progress."
That seems to be a contradiction. Unions led to laws; laws are applied and enforced through regulations; but regulations are bad.
Can you reconcile this?
I didn't think of it as a contradiction.
Unions may have led to laws, but I would rather unions and corporations check one another without most laws. That is, laws are what are choking economic growth, not unions (as one poster said).
"Unions may have led to laws, but I would rather unions and corporations check one another without most laws..."
I'm not so sure about that. It seems that the TA "disciplinary rules" (which, to an outsider sound something like the 7th grade with people checking up on you if you're sick, etc.) is a close #2 complaint right now among the TA rank and file posting here.
From what I've been able to gather from SubTalk over the years this seems to be a direct outcome of the collective bargaining process. At least in the dysfunctional relationship between the TA and their union, distrust seems to be the norm.
The one great irony that I find with unions is that they treat their membership as a commodity -- everyone who fits a certain profile (experience/job function) gets paid the exact same amount, regardless of productivity or potential. Yet court rulings that labor is not a commodity is the the only thing that keeps unions from running afoul of anti-trust laws.
CG
That's a very interesting point. Maybe the unions need to take a fresh look at just what seniority and job classifications mean and whether unions should be looking at how their members perform.
Just a few lazy incompetent people can make a whole group look bad - and harm them at the negotiating table.
This is not news to the unions. The TWU spends 905 of its resources defending less than 10% of the workforce.
This is not news to the unions. The TWU spends 90% of its resources defending less than 10% of the workforce.
>>> Yet court rulings that labor is not a commodity is the the only thing that keeps unions from running afoul of anti-trust laws. <<<
It is not just court rulings, but federal law that keeps unions from running afoul of anti-trust laws. If you have had a chance to study organized labor history in the U.S., you would see that in the early days "restraint of trade" was the legal charge brought against those trying to organize labor, making any labor union an illegal organization.
Tom
The executives have their united front, the unions need their own. In good economic times, most employees will be treated well because they can always flee to another job. Those jobs where the workers are truly disposable have mostly been automated away.
The workers need a united front, but it need not be an union. That being said, given the situation, a union is probably the only way to go. I am generally not in favor of unions, but the specifics here, and in all similar cases, mitigate toward the need of a union. Now if you could only get a *good* union that carried the ball for you rather than screwing you.... but that is not possible, because a union *is* a democratic institution fraught with the same politics as beseiges our governments. There are too many separate, convoluted, and downright conflicted interests for this to happen, and those who serve the union are themselves human, frought with the same foibles as what afllicts all of humankind.
There is no easy way out, or through these issues, but through them you must pass. Best of Luck in these negeotions to you all.
Elias
There is nothing wrong with the Taylor Law. It exchanges the right to strike with several protections which private sector employees do not enjoy. People (especially transit workers) tend to forget that.
If it isn't too much trouble, could you remind us what those protections might be?
We don't expect sympathy from them. Hell we don't get when we are working.
But now a question - Can you honestly say that you have NEVER broken a law, whether caught at it or not? If not, then please remember what they tell people who live in glass houses.
It *is* ok to break the taylor law...
There will be a penalty.
A Long strike, will be as has been said, very counter productive.
But a one or two day strike will buy front page news coverage, and that may be worth the price.
For pitty sake, start the strike with the start of the AFTERNOON shift, then end it with an afternoon shift. It gets their attention, and creates a story... any longer than that, and people figure out other ways to get around, and your action becomes counter productive very fast.
I remember the last LIRR strike that I was a passenger on. It started around 0630 hours. My train was arriving in Jamaica, and the crew told us that the strike had started, that this train was returning to Babylon, and we could ride with them, or find other transport to the city. (It was an agreement with the LIRR to get all of their trans back to the east end of their routes, and the union was happy to do this for them, because that was where their own cars wer parked anyway.)
I went back home, called my boss and told what happened, and that I would come to work tomorrow. (I drove to Brooklyn, parked in a lot, and took the Subway... Naturally I went in *VERY* early.
Elias
I have never broken a law, except jaywalking and using milk crates for storage in my basement.
I have never lied except for saying I never lied
That's a lie.
LOL
So we should sit back and accept whatever management gives us so that you can get to work on time? So that you can go home to wife and kids when YOUR WORK DAY is over with? So that you can go and RAILFAN whenever you want and then come back and post about observations here? Let me know.....
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
6 more days to go
Honestly, I prefer not to strike. I do hope that something positive comes out of this if we do...
As for what people say here, this is the kind of response we should expect. The Union and it's membership are well aware of what the laws are in NY. A strike is illegal according to the law. That's fine. However, we have to do something to be taken seriously by Management.
Hoping For The Best,
Stef
Couldnt have said it better..........
Yeah, I second that, Mike. Hope you guys don't strike....but if you do, good luck...I'll be rooting for you guys!
There's a thread in hear about a "rules" slowdown. That I wouldn't object to. But if the TWU wants to be taken seriously, it should:
1. Make realistic contract demands, not based on what you desire but what the state can afford.
2. Stop using a gun loaded with blanks. The state has no reason to take an empty threat seriously. The Taylor law prohibits a strike. Once a strike is called, they have the laws on their side.
While I do think that the MTA should have negotiated with the TWU sooner, I think the TWU wants a whole lot of attention and a strike is NOT the way to go, especially in these times where subway ridership is at a all time high. Come on 24% over 3 years, they are asking for way too much BUT I don't blame them b/c if Doomberg gave the cops, firefighters & teachers raises it came as no surprise that the MTA workers would demand a raise as well. Its unfortunate that it always comes down to money in these situations. The real victims are the riders, who have to endure a likely fare hike next year, getting screwed over by Paturkey & Doomberg & other factors.
Come on 24% over 3 years
8,8,8 comes out to more that 24%, it comes out to 25.3312%
Negotiations consist of two initial outlandish offers. The MTA's offer came last week, 10 days before the contract expires. In order to get the figure you want, you start a LOT higher. This is how contracts are negotiated.
The state WILL PAY MONEY they do not have and so will the city in the event of a strike. A strike will yield no winners because there are a lot of politicians that don't believe the MTA is bargaining in good faith because of the TARDINESS of their offer. This offer should have been made right after the elections, not December 6. The city will not save any money because they have to pay for the courts, pay for the ferries to be on standby, pay for cops, lose education money etc. This is not cheap and the resources expended on this could be applied to the contract, but won't be. While I don't believe that Bloomberg is the greatest mayor, the attic was full of skeletons long before he came into power. Of course, NOBODY cares about who made the mess, just about the strong chemicals used to clean it up. There are people on this very board who knew the real financial shape of the city and continue to heap unwarranted criticism on this man. Granted, he's not a model citizen, but a state dispute which he has NO CONTROL OVER is going to yank $10 million out of his pocket per day. How many people enjoy having money yanked out of their pocket without a say? He is in the same boat as the rest of New York because he's got some VERY SERIOUS fiscal issues that he will need the state's cooperation on. Can't burn all your "Get Dough from Albany" cards in one shot.
By the way, blanks CAN kill people if they are fired too close to their heart or head. A famous actor died that way (the name slips me). Just because most of us can't fight crummy contracts doesn't mean those who can shouldn't. The police will not cart very many people off to jail unless things turn violent because that would play into TWU's hands.
Just because most of us can't fight crummy contracts doesn't mean those who can shouldn't. The police will not cart very many people off to jail unless things turn violent because that would play into TWU's hands.
The current contract is hardly crummy. Given the current economic conditions, you should be happy your not being threatened with layoffs. Civil service employees seem to forget that the rest of us would KILL for the rights and benefits you enjoy and dismess so handily.
You who? I'm not a transit employee...I'll suffer in the case of a strike. Of course, a strike would be the only way I could get three hot chicks in MY car:)
Just because most of us can't fight crummy contracts doesn't mean those who can shouldn't. The police will not cart very many people off to jail unless things turn violent because that would play into TWU's hands.
The current contract is hardly crummy. Given the current economic conditions, you should be happy your not being threatened with layoffs. Civil service employees seem to forget that the rest of us would KILL for the rights and benefits you enjoy and dismiss so handily.
>>> Civil service employees seem to forget that the rest of us would KILL for the rights and benefits you enjoy and dismiss so handily <<<
Speak for yourself. If you would kill for the rights and benefits, take the civil service exams and save the bloodshed. Many of us do not want them or the jobs that go along with them. In any case, whatever the benefits, civil service does not give management the right to dump on the workers.
Waiting to just before the contract expires to make a first offer of new contract terms is not bargaining in good faith, but trying to provoke a strike or capitulation to the terms to destroy the union.
Tom
BLESS YA, Tom ... there've been times when I worried about some of the positions you've taken in our various "two ships passing in the night" thingies ... but yeah, You're thinking properly.
Lemme put it this way for folks who think I "think pink" ("Commie") ... I'm an "ontapanoor", self-employed, every reason in the WORLD to be one of those "I got mine and PHUCK YOU" types ... only problem is that I've stived to be EVERYTHING the right wing demands and yet I have these PEE stains that ain't mine. Bottom line, I observe the rules of being an "ontapanoor" but at the SAME time, we make those who work for us WHOLE.
For me it's a religious thing, if you can forgive me - for I'd want nothing LESS for TWU folks. The subways are ***MUCH*** better than they've EVER been, and the "productivity" is there, which has MADE it possible. Instead of giving tax cuts to WAL*MART, perhaps the benefits of that productivity could be given back to those who PROVIDED it ...
Warning ... religious tract follows ...
Parable of the Vineyard Labourers
(a partial excerpt)
Listen to a parable.
A landowner went out at daybreak to hire workers for his vineyard and he made an
agreement with them for one denarius a day. He went out again. at the third hour and
thinking that the workers he had hired were too few and seeing other people idle in the
square waiting to be hired, he took them and said to them: "Go to my vineyard and I will
give you what I promised the others". And they went. He went out again at the sixth hour
and at the ninth and seeing some more workers, he said to them: "Will you work for me?
I give my workers one denarius a day". They agreed and went. Finally he went out about
the eleventh hour and saw some more standing in the sunshine and he asked them: "Why
are you standing here idle? Are you not ashamed of standing here all day without doing
anything?".
"Because no one hired us for the day. We would have liked to work and earn our living.
But no one asked us to go and work".
"Well, I am asking you to go to my vineyard. Go and you will have the same pay as the
others". He said so because he was a good landowner and felt sorry for the dejection of
his neighbour.
In the evening, when the work was finished, the man called the bailiff and said: "Call
the workers and pay them their wages, as agreed, beginning with the last arrivals, who
are the most needy as they have not had any food during the day, whereas the others have
been fed once. and some several times, and who out of gratitude to me, as I felt sorry for
them, have worked harder than all the others; I, in fact, have been watching them. Then
dismiss them so that they may go and rest, as they deserve, and may enjoy with their
families the fruit of their work". And the bailiff did as the landowner ordered, and gave
each man one denarius.
When the last ones came, those who had worked from daybreak they were surprised at
receiving one denarius each and they complained to the bailiff who said to them: "That
is the order I was given. Go and complain to the landowner, not to me". And they went
and said: "You have not been fair! We have worked for twelve hours, first in the dewy
moisture, then in the heat of thi sun and once again in the dampness of the evening, and
you have given us the same wages you gave the lazy workers who worked for one hour
only!... Why?". And one of them in particular raised his voice saying that he had been
betrayed and exploited undeservedly.
"My friend, in what have I wronged you? What did I agree with you at daybreak? One
full day's work and the wages of one denarius. Did I not?".
"Yes, that is true. But you have given the same wages to those who haye worked much
less..."
"Did you agree to that pay because it seemed fair?".
"Yes. I agreed because others pay less".
"Were you ill-treated by me?".
"In all conscience... no".
"I granted you a long rest during the day and I gave you some food, did I not? You had
three meals. And food and rest were not agreed upon. is that right?".
"Yes. They were not agreed upon".
"Why did you accept them, then?".
"Well... You said: 'I prefer to do so, so that you will not get tired going back home'. And
we could hardly believe that it was true... your food was good, and we saved, and..."
"It was a favour that I was doing you gratuitously and that none of you could pretend. Is
that right?".
"That is true".
"So I did you a good turn. Well, why are you complaining? I should complain of you,
because, although you realised that you were -dealing with a good master; you worked
lazily, whereas those who came after you and had one meal only, and the last arrivals
who had none at all, set to work with a will and in a shofter time they did the same work
that you did in twelve hours. I would have betrayed you if I had halved your wages to pay
them. But that is not the case. So take what is yours and go away. Are you going to come
to my house and impose me to do what suits you? I do what I like and what is fair. Don't
be malicious and don't compel me to be unfair. For I am good".
I solemnly say to all of you who are listening to Me, that the Father God makes the same
agreement with all men and promises the same reward to everybody. Those who serve the
Lord diligently will be treated by Him with justice, even if they do little work, being close
to death. I solemnly tell you that the first will not always be the first in the Kingdom of
Heaven, where we shall see that the last are first and the first are last. We shall see there
that men who do not come from Israel are holier than many men of Israel... I have come
to call everybody, in the name of God. But if many are called, few are chosen, because few
want Wisdom, He is not wise who lives according- to the world and to flesh, but not ac-
cording to God. He is neither wise for the- eafth nor for Heaven. Because on the earth he
will make enemies, will receive punishment and will feel remorse. And he will lose
Heaven for ever.
I repeat: be good to your neighbour, whoever he may be. Be obedient and leave to God the
task of punishing those who are unjust in giving orders.
Waiting to just before the contract expires to make a first offer of new contract terms is not bargaining in good faith, but trying to provoke a strike or capitulation to the terms to destroy the union.
The state has every right to use whatever legal powers it has to acheive a contract settlement favorable to it's needs. It has no right to capitulate to TWU demands. That's not "union busting". Reagan busted PATCO. No one is looking to do the same here.
No. My objections to an illegal work stoppage are based on the economic impact on the city. Inconvenience is a secondary concern. The system must be kept running. The law must and will be enforced.
Honestly, both sides aren't serious right now. Had they been serious, negotiations would be happening every 2-3 days. Instead, the meetings have been generally once or twice per week. I don't believe that that is an appropriate volume of negotiation for a contract of this magnitude.
The union and the MTA were closer than this in 1999. The city WILL have to spend $10 million per day in order to mitigate this strike. With so many dollars at stake, why is Mayor Bloomberg not encouraging BOTH sides to work it out? This IS an avoidable expense, the exact type the city is looking to avoid.
If the union is offered 9% over three years, they should take it, even with the additional health benefit payments. Anything less, and they should consider mechanisms to illustrate their value, including withholding their services temporarily. The MTA cannot afford the backlash of firing 20% of their employees. There are many people who are jealous of the ability of transit workers to fight an unjust contract, and I don't believe that anyone should be upset at their ability to fight for a decent contract.
I would kindly ask the transit employees that decide to withhold their services to respect the rights of alternative transportation modes to operate. You have your grievance with management (more so the State government than their MTA puppets), not with the 7 million passengers that depend on your services. Therefore, I would ask that you not interfere with the taxis, vans, buses, trains, and ferries (whether permanent or temporary) that are helping those people to move around. There are people that won't be able to have Christmas without their wages for that week and it would severely weaken the union's case if those things are interfered with. That would also force police to arrest you, since the majority of them will have no interest in arresting you without an official order from THE VERY TOP.
If the TWU and the MTA want to truly avoid a strike, you'll get a deal by next Sunday.
Labor discord is a sad thing. I once was told, "If you cannot support your boss, your company, you should be working elsewhere." I do not think that this translates well in the labor sector (That quote was from a professional's organization). Yet the people who move trains *are* professional, if not in terms of the definition of "professional workers" then at least in the attitudes and responsibilities that they bring to their jobs.
It is sad to see management's 'opening position.' It may prove to be more inflexible than a normal 'opening gambit position.'
If I were doing the negeotiating, I'd push those issues aside for the moment and really push hard for work rule changes, a better professional attitude toward employees by the MTA, and mre resonable disciplinary structures. I'd push hard for workers safety. These are goals that have little or no price tag to the tax/fare payers. They are reasonable goals and need to be met first.
The next big issue as I see it is health/care, health/insurance and leave policies. These are also importand issues, and they do carry a big price tag. They are also part of the total wage package: a major increase here diminishes rases elsewhere. Know what you want going in.
When my father worked for NBC, the company put a package on the table, and let the union fight themselves silly trying to cut the pie. The of course is counter productive from labor's point of view, and itr fractures the union, so that the company can then tailor its packages to the faction that it might support.
Finally, yes, there must be raises. Raises above and beyond the insurance packages. Yes, the city, the state, and the tax/fare payers are also strapped, but there is a point where a package is either just, and fair to both sides, or it is not. And if it is not, then options need be considered.
They Taylor law itself is unfair and unjust, but it is the law. It is unlikely to be changed. A token strike is a possibility, say two or three days. It will cost, but it puts your issues on the front page across the country. If you do that make your issues cogent and reasonable, your arguments appealing to justice. You are demonstrating your value to the city, the state, the nation, and the tax/fare payers, and are buying the front page. Once you have that, return to work, again to demonstrate your reasonableness and justice, for it is certainly not productive to you to take a big hit in wages and penalties beyond what you can afford, or expect to recoup in position.
There are many issues, and not all can agree to even agree on a few of them, and that is just on your side of the table. If you are in a union, then you pull together. If you are in a disunion, you will get nothing.
So say I from North Dakota, a Right to Work state.
Elias
Looks like this whole thing has turned into an "us" vs. "them" thing --- as I knew it would.
I never expected the average straphanger to understand why the memebers of TWU feel the way they do. After all, they've never been spat at, had objects thrown at them, been cursed at because the train wouldn't wait for them; and be responsible for literally thousands of people's safety at one time. They don't remember the dozens of times they got to work or home on time, but are ready to curse you out at the drop of a hat when an unavoidable delay causes a lateness or reroutes service.
I never expected them to understand how when trains go into emergency the motorman has to decend to the roadbed and check around the whole train if the cause is undetermined; never mind that there are other trains whizzing by them and that there are over 600 volts of electric current on the third rail that they must step over. They wouldn't understand the strain of having to constantly keep their trains under control; of constantly looking long distances in dark tunnels which can be a strain on the eyes.
They don't understand how crews sometimes come in upwards of 20 or 30 minutes late because of any given situation and still be sent out to make scheduled intervals "for the good of the service" with having to sit down, eat lunch, take a bathroom break, or get some fresh air to revive them from the stale environment of the subway system. All they know is the train is coming, and they get on it without a second thought.
They don't understand why station agents feel mistreated when they tell someone what the policy is for refunding money when the MetroCard takes out a double fare, and instead of "thank you" they get an earful of obcenities. Or when people come up to the booth and ask why the train isn't running and the clerk doesn't know get hostility from the customers. They don't understand the pressure of only having one person working the booth during rush hours and having a seemingly endless line of people waiting impatiently to buy tokens or cards. Better not make a mistake giving out the change either, because if you shortchange the customer, you'll get an earful and if you shortchange the TA you'll definitely get an earful.
They don't understand how bus drivers are the most vulnerable of the transit workers; after all, it's just him on that bus, in that corner, susceptible to anything and everything. They get blamed for driving too slow when in actuality they have to follow a schedule same as the trains do. They work long runs and in many cases never get to stretch their feet from the time they climb aboard the bus until the time they steo off of it.They can never avoid rowdy children on their run. but they're not thought of as being stressed. To the passengers he's just the driver and as long as they get where they're going, it's all good.
The public at large takes public transportation and the people who run it for granted. When the tragic events of September 11th happened, we were there. We didn't stop operating the trains and buses. We ran trains for weeks immediately underneath Ground Zero and dealt with the odor, the conditions, and the fear. We were nervous, and maybe even a little scared. But guess what? We came to work. We endured it. And at no time were we ever publicly lauded for helping to keep this city running.
So it doesn't surprise me one damn bit that people think of us as being greedy and selfish. Nor does it bother me one damn bit. I'm going to still come to work and do my job and do it to the best of my ability. But unless you know what the 32,000 members of the transit workforce go through on a daily basis firsthand, it's not for anyone out there to say what we should or shouldn't have.
AMEN! Thanks for saying all that ... wish the public would think about that for a little while. I've been out of TWU for more than 30 years now, but I still remember what it was like. And it's only gotten worse for the folks who work it, even if the public's getting a FAR better deal than they did for their token 30 years ago. How quickly they forget. :(
Well, Kevin, it's good to know that there are some people who have an inkling of what goes on underground.
Thanks for your undying and unwavering support of us. It's greatly appreciated.
Dude ... it's EXPECTED ... after the TA, things got better for a while, and then when Shrub's DAD got elected, I figured I'd go BACK to the state teat since after all, the GUBBAMINT doesn't go out of business. :)
My TITLE was abolished TWICE under Paturkey, TWICE ALSO for my AGENCY. I had more stable employment working for the NIPS! But yeah, the Arnines were a TRULY religious experience as to what happens when the docudroids and adminiswigs were doing better drugs than YOU could buy. Heh. And yeah, spit on, slapped, STABBED and ***SHOT*** on the job. Uh ... yeah. But what *I* went through didn't hold a CANDLE to what YOU guys went through with 9/11 and all the qwap SINCE.
You BETCHA I side with TWU 100 ... my old alma mater and TEACHER of "could be worse" as I lived the REST of my life ... heh. But yeah, did it, KNOW the realities. What *I* did with TWU is ILLEGAL today (and for DAMN good reason) ... "split shifts with 6 hour layover, Rush Hour only board." Just in case anyone can't fathom why I'm so passionate about it - even today, they won't screw you guys like they screwed *US* ... but then again, they paid us a FAIR WAGE FOR IT. Hmm.
Well said.
I know firsthand what dealing with the stench of destruction was like. Having the booth in the park at Bowling Green was an adventure of a lifetime. Let these folks try to sit in the booth and tell me what that was like! I had to go to work and deal with it for 8 hours.
Also on the Sunday following the attacks, I was on the station (BG) directing traffic as people from Battery Park City took their belongings. I helped to keep those people moving. Am I still greedy and selfish?
-Stef
Stef, I know.
Many of us had many concerns the weeks following that fateful day. Passing underneath the disaster site. What were we inhaling? What would be the effects? Was it safe? But we came in to work.
Then there was the anthrax scare. Never knowing when or if some fanatic would unleash some chemical or gas into a crowded rush hour subway train. Hearing news reports about mass transit being the next target. Not knowing if the train would make through the river tubes between stations. But we sucked it up and came to work anyway.
Then there were the suspicious packages and bags left on subway trains. Could they have been explosives, some kind of nerve agent, or other kind of biological weapon left to cause havoc, death, and destruction? We remained calm and didn't panic as we discharged and evacuated customers off the train and stayed nearby on the scene. If there was fear, we didn't show it. We just dealt with it.
So I know of what you speak of. Hopefully now others will get a better feeling also.
And ALSO forgotten are the track workers, signal maintainers, car inspectors and maintainers, money counters, backhoe operators, people in the ventilation department, electricians, station and car cleaners, bus mechanics and so many others who just do their work completely out of public view. And yet, the system works just about every day ... in the past few months, many of them have DIED needlessly and uncermoniously.
TWU's people DESERVE a raise ... unlike so many other civil service gigs, transit IS an "essential service" which requires more of its employees than the paper shufflers in other agencies. The cops and firefighters got a well-deserved raise, so do THESE folks.
All of the people you mentioned, Kev, perform the rigorous task of keeping this city running everyday. They deserve mention as well. No, they don't come into contact with the public as train operators, conductors, bus operators, and station agents do, but they provide an essential service in keeping things running smoothly and comfortably.
Like I said, it's funny how the public tends to take things for granted. They assume so much and appreciate so little.
Amen and Amen ... and THANKS for appreciating that SOME of us here on Unca Dave's place *DO* have a clue. Had it not been for being UMD myself, I wouldn't have known either. I left TWU in 1971, but the absolute unnecessary BS of the job hasn't left me yet ... and aside from wages, things DID get a bit better for conductors and motorpeople since. I did BOTH gigs on split shift, at least THAT'S gone today. :)
But yeah, the public NEVER appreciated ANYTHING that I did, or you and the current brothers and sisters of the hole do for them, day in and day out. And RARELY does a suckustomer DIE ... unless they WANNA.
Amen. I applaud you for those true words. Once again you speaketh da truth.
Thanks, buddy. Just saying what I felt needed to be said.
I think you should take your posting and submit it to the local newspapers' editorial columns. Customers simply do not know what the various employees go thru in a given day unless they did the job themselves. Customers simply do not know. Customers see the agent in the booth for maybe a minute a day. Agents see customers all day long. Non stop. Agents answer questions. Perform transactions with cards and money and tokens. Call to find out what happened to the trains. Report crimes and complaints. Then called lazy because they stop a minute to catch their breaths. They get called stupid because they don't know where an obscure address is in Queens. Or maybe they just happen to know where the obscure address is and they didn't have to spend a minute looking it up.
I had a customer once who wanted to know where is the Board of Elections Building in Kew Garden Hills. I told him to take the train behind him to Union Turnpike. Get off toward the back of the train. As he exits thru the turnstile, make a left. Go upstairs. Wait for a certain bus that stops in front of a deli. As soon as the bus makes a left hand turn off Union Turnpike, ring the bell. The building was at the end of the park on the block. The person could not believe I could give him detailed directions without looking it up or stratching my head thinking for a moment. And this was no ordinary person. This was a Borough of Manhattan President who later became a Mayor. He had a flat dark brown attachee case with his name stamped on it in gold lettering. Need I say who this person is?
Dinkins?
?
-Stef
That must have been a long time ago. I live down the street from the former board of elections - they havent been here in about 20 years!! It is now a pre-school and before that was a vision center
Dinkins was Manhattan borough president a long time ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
I really don't believe that money's the real thing in this threatened strike. Transit workers are well-paid and inflation's not an issue. What IS significant, however, is that NYCT management hasn't yet figured out that the workers should be treated like adults and not like delinquent second-graders. If the disciplinary rules could be revised, there may well be less pressure for a strike.
According to "Economic History Services", what *I* made as a conductor in 1970 was $357 a week. In 2001, adjusted by the consumer price index, a STARTING conductor on the W train would make $1,720.00 A WEEK. Is THAT what they're STILL paying?
(if you want to work out the wages today yourself, visit the place where *I* got the above number here - just so folks can test my source personally)
http://www.eh.net/hmit/compare/
Just for laughs, the wages paid by the Transit Authority to START as a conductor back in 1970 in 2001 wages based on Gross Domestic Product (GDP, or "efficiency") works out to $3,500.00 A *WEEK* for a STARTING conductor. Yep, PROUD to be a REPUBLICAN ...
Anybody making THAT? The FATCATS are ... and not even the CEO's who would be WAY ahead of that figure. Go play with the numbers on that site I mentioned, my CPI valuation of a TWU conductor was QUITE conservative ...
If MTA wants PRODUCTIVITY, perhaps they could PAY the "prevailing rate" based on their OWN wages in 1970 ... staties? Feeling SHAFTED yet? Can we say "gobble-gobble" like a Paturkey?
Since the 1960s, income and wealth have become more and more concentrated in the top percents of the population.
And instead of doing things that would help solve this problem, the federal government instead chooses to eliminate the only good tax that exists, the estate tax.
If I was in power, the estate tax would be 100%. When a person ceases to exist, his assets must cease to exist too.
And for all of those lame-o wimps who believe that people don't cease to be at the time of their death, then the deceased's assets can go up to heaven with him.
Road Dogg, let me add by saying that the public should be reminded about the employees dedication and hard work by running "Above and Below" the award-winning video by Winston Mitchell (Transit/Transit) showing the efforts of TA workers during and after the events of 9/11. I think that would humble alot of the hot-heads out there.
I tell ya Dougie ... I'm MIGHTY disappointed in a couple of folks here. I STRONGLY urge them to go out for TWU, or some OTHER "political appointment" and report back to us after a year or two on the gig as to how "sweet" picking up political soap has turned out and just how MUCH they "pucker" as election time rolls around. :)
TYIS MUST BE THE LONGEST POST EVER
Nah, I'm sure 76 St threads have been longer. Or some of those threads, which shall go unnamed, from the dark days here at SubTalk.
---BmDoObIeW
During the 53 days between the July 22 Bridge swap and the September 11 events, we had a thread that went for hundreds of responses entitled something like the Broadway Line, one big mess. If you check the archives, you can see how off topic some parts of that thread became, but it was never deleted as far as I know.
From September 10, 2001. I kid you not!
---Andrew
Yeah, that IS kind of eerie......
After taking a good look at your post one would have to agree that it was the most ironic post ever. The World Trade Center was mentioned and less than twelve hours later the North Tower was hit by the first plane then the South tower just 17 minutes later.
#3 West End Jeff
in case anyone is interested, found a 1899 manhattan railroad map with scheldules, station addresses, and map. looks cool.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@FILREQ(@field(SUBJ+@band(United+States--New+York++State+--Manhattan++New+York++))+@FIELD(COLLID+trnsmap))
I haven't myself, but I did see a TV commercial for it, and based on what I saw there might be a major blooper. The movie is supposed to take place in suburban Hartford. In the ad I saw, a character is standing at a station watchin a train leave. Not much of the train is visible, but there is a very clear glimpse of catenary above the tracks. If this particular scene's supposed to take place near Hartford, we're definitely into blooper territory. So I was wondering if that's indeed the case.
Does anyone here know where this recent Nike commercial takes place? Basically its a commercial where two guys are doing chin ups under an elevated track structure and the commercial ends when the guy not wearing a Nike shirt falls off the chin up bar (which seems to be just a support beam for the structure). Thanks for reading.
GO TERPS!
It appears to be a R-40 or R-42 on the West End, but not sure.
I have heard that the commercial was filmed without approval of or payment to the MTA. The TA threatened court action. I believe that the comercial has been withdrawn pending resolution of the legal battle.
Really. I saw it twice just last night on Channel 7 here in NYC between 6 and 7 p.m.
I saw it 30 minutes ago. Anyway, the MTA needs to learn to stop whining and find legitimate ways to close its budget deficit.
the nike commercial was did between marcy av and hewes st stations on the BMT jamaica line.
til next time
Ask mommy and daddy if they'd let someone film a commercial in their kitchen for free. Seems to me that you are very frivolous about other peoples rights, other peoples property or other peoples responsibilities. Perhaps, mikey, its time to grow up. Maybe is you sit quietly and stop foaming at the mouth for a moment, you'd come up with a few reasons why the MTA and the TA does not and should not permit Gorilla Filming on its property. Give it a try, mikey.
I didn't know that underneith an EL was considered MTA property. I also don't see the MTA going after Darren Aronofsky for filming parts of Pi in the subway. Oh wait, that's right, he dosen't have any money. Filming needs to be held to a standard of burden. The MTA was not burdened in any way and should not be entitled to compensation or Nike should pay the actual damages they caused to the MTA which is $0. Nice try with using extreme examples to obscure the actual issues involved.
There was a lot of talk about the TA switching the R62s on the 4 with the R62As on the 3 this weekend. Does anybody know whether or not this happened?
The 4 is going to be mostly R142/R142A. They have 7661-7730 on the 4 now. They're expecting 1101-1120 after the 5 receives the rest of their cars. The reason for the switch is b/c they want the East Side to be mostly R142/R142A. The R62A that are on the 3 will be going to the 4, 7 and Shuttle. Only 50 cars will be on the 4. 10 cars will be used for the Shuttle. The rest will be shipped to the 7 to get rid of all of the RedBirds for good. The R62 that are on the 4 will head over to the 3.
#7701 4 Lexington Ave Express
I thought the new R142/142A cars were strictly in the 6300 thru 7800 series, is it going to be in low nunbers too?
I was on an R-62A 3 train about an hour ago. All I saw on the 3 were R-62A's; all I saw on the 4 were R-62's. I guess nothing's happened yet. Either it's been postponed or it's all going to happen tonight (not unlikely, IMO, since the 4 runs to New Lots at night in any case, so many of the R-62A's on the 3 can simply be resigned as 4's at New Lots). We'll see tomorrow.
Coming to work this morning, the 4 was still R-62.
The Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers ran a chartered train from 30th Street Station to Reading on Saturday. The connection from 30th St to the (former) Reading at Belmont Junction has been removed, so the train had to reverse out of 30th St Station to Phil Interlocking, then move onto the West Philadelphia High Line to proceed to Reading. The train had a P42DC (Genesis) on each end, #104 on the Philly end and #108 on the Reading end. It left at 10:10 (9:00 advertised) because of two bad-ordered coaches that had to be replaced.
My photos of this train and other trains on the NEC while I was waiting are on the same Webshots page as my Sunday-after-Thanksgiving shots from last weekend.
One of the P42DC's had to be replaced early on for mechanical reasons. The 2 coaches had bad air brakes.
The story circulating on the train had to do with the yard crew bsing pissed off because their supervisor took the tv away. This allegedly resulted in an exhaustive inspection of the equipment for the charter. The train that was supposed to be in the station at 8:00am was not in the station till about 10:00.
It was a great trip!
Uncool. If I pulled that kind of shit at my job, especially in front of and to the detriment of clients most likely to support my business, I would be sooooooooo fired.
The timing was terrible. At a time when reopening former lines needs as much public support as possible, its a shame that so few can leverage so many. No wonder AMTRAK is in trouble.
I was on that train. Had a good time. My wife always likes it when she can buy me cotton docker-style pants for $10 apiece at an outlet mall.
Were you on the train too? Your post implies that you took that photograph and then went to the station to board, but that makes no sense, because the train did not have to use the High Line (the photo shows the High Line) until after we were abard and it was heading out to Reading.
The stations we visited had not had regular passenger service for decades. It would be nice to restore it. DVARP indicated that the Vanity Fair mall subsidized the train, which brought the mall around 400 shoppers. If most of them took advantage of the "buy $100, get $10 off" coupon, the mall would have enjoyed quite a haul.
Passengers were let off near a very narrow fence opening behind the mall. Maybe the mall could build a modest wooden station platform, and then arrange for Amtrak or SEPTA to run a train every weekend, on Saturday and Sunday, during the last two months of the year. Everybody the carrier (Amtrak or SEPTA), CSX railroad, the mall, passengers, would get some benefit.
DVARP is on to something here. Of course, the Inquirer article covering the trip implied that DVARP supported SEPTA's SVM project, which is not the case.
At our station stops people with camcorders and still cameras fired away liberally. A passenger train on a freight-only line...
I imagine we'll be seeing those pictures all over the Web soon.
I neglected to mention in my first post that while I was standing on the sidewalk of South Street bridge waiting for another train to photograph, camera in pocket out of view, a police car stopped on the bridge and the officer called to me to get my attention. When I made eye contact, he said "Are you going to jump?"
I replied in the negative, making no mention of photographing trains. He then replied "It's a nice view from here." [good view of Philly skyline] and drove off.
For those of u who attended the Redbird fan trip today I was there. If anybody saw me I was wearing a white Yankees hat with the American flag in front. Hope all of u had a good time on the trip & hope we have another fan trip like this again. Sorry I couldn't take the Subtalk picture with all of u.
Wish I could've been there today. Unfortunately I had some errands to do with the family and it couldn't be put off for another day. :( I sure hope that there's another 1 soon. Looking forward to seeing some great shots from fellow SubTalkers.
I will scan and email some pics I took on 12-4 to Dave P ASAP of "SnowBirds" and some other surprises. That'll make up for me not being on the trip today.
#9331 7 Flushing Local
It was a great fantrip today. We had a six car train of IRT R-33 Single Units. Sub-talk was well represented. A rough count puts at least 30 of the bretheren there. We left 59 St-8 Av and ran express to Euclid then to Pitkin Avenue Yard. A quick relay to 76 St and back to Pitkin. Then via Tk K6 and Liberty Av middle to the Rockaway Line and out to Rockaway Park. Returning from Rockaway Park we ran express to Jay and switched to the 6 Avenue Line which we followed to West 4 Street then relay to Essex via the long unused BJ tracks. Then out to Rockaway Parkway and lunch. Apparently two R-26's 7770-1 have found a home in the Canarsie Yard as offices. We then returned to East New York running over the soon to be abandoned el between Sutter and Atlantic and then ran out to Crescent Street and relay on the middle. From there to Myrtle and out to Metropolitan and the to Chambers and end of trip. At Myrtle Avenue all the sub-talkers gathered in car 9313 for a group photo. There were too many for me to name but among those present were Hartbus,Bill Newkirk, Bill from Maspeth, David Greenberger, A-8th Avenue Exp, Tony R-40M, Silver Fox , Trevor Logan, OZ12, Cleanair bus and many others. It was nice to meet such a great bunch of guys. The ERA and the NYCTA did an excellent job on this trip.
Larry, RedbirdR33
One addtional comment on the fantrip. Of course no trip to the BMT is official without the presence of BMT Man. He meet us at Canrsie after photographing the train from the street.
Larry, RedbirdR33
These are in Canarsie Yard as school cars. In order to qualify crews on the R143, these R26's are used as classroom cars, since as we all know, Canarsie is the home of the R143. For example, one of the PM t/o's on the E is part of a group who have a 3 day course on these cars Mon. to Wed. this week. They'll spend time in the "classroom", then after the PM rush they will go out to a laid up R143 in Canarsie Yard to do cuts and adds and get to know the cars up close and personal. On Wednesday night, they'll all take turns operating for a few stops doing a couple of trips on the L line in non revenue service. They'll do the J line in the event of a GO on the L. The conductors get qualified in one day. They seem to be taking the t/o's in random order. Senior guys who have no intention of ever picking the L gotta go. The TA wants everybody qualified.
Sorry I couldn't make the trip today.
Here's a photo of 7770/7771 taken last June, and here's an end shot of 7771.
Yep ! Bob was part of our "R-143 to Red Birds" Field Trip.
I'm glad to hear that the "Redbird" fan trip went well today. It will perhaps be a fitting way to say "Good-Bye" to the "Redbirds". I'm glad to see that one married pair of R-26s [7770-7771] will remain on T/A property for a time so that some ACF heritage will perhaps be preserved. Though the "Redbirds" will soon be history, let them never be forgotten.
#3 West End Jeff
It was nice meeting you guys. I had a great time!! My computer took a beating downloading more than 100 MB worth of digital photos lol.I will post a few up in a day or two. By the way...I was the one taking the group photos at the end of the trip in case you dont know :)
I took some pictures...the redbird pics came out real good, I would like to contribute some here...great idea...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
Here's like maybe one or two pics...
Enjoy!
1- #9338 at the Beach 90th Street (S) Station. Rockaway Park Shuttle
2- #9331 at Essex St (J)(M)(Z) Station. Nassau Street Lines.
Photos by Carlton Walton a.k.a. "Transit Is My Drug"
That 13 sign looks like an R-16 curtain.
One was an R-11 curtain and the other an R-16 curtain.
--Mark
Roger that.
>>>"One was an R-11 curtain"<<<
O.K. that explains the "13 Fulton" route designation, even though
it would not have been possible on that type of car with
weight restrictions between Atlantic Avenue & 80th Street.
;-) Sparky
Here's like maybe one or two pics...
Enjoy!
1- #9338 at the Beach 90th Street (S) Station. Rockaway Park Shuttle
(sign: 13 Fulton St line to Atlantic Avenue)
2- #9331 at Essex St (J)(M)(Z) Station. Nassau Street Lines.
(sign: QJ to Jamaica-168th/Hillside)
Photos by Carlton Walton a.k.a. "Transit Is My Drug"
Two very good pics.... Boravo!
Elias
They put BMT rollsigns in IRT cars? Why? I mean, these cars never ran on the QJ or 13.
It was only a special occasion for railfans only besides that was great.
I bet it was. Wish I could have been there, I had to work today (boo!).
Great pictures, by the way!
Thank you. Fine photographs is what I am striving for...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
Nice photos!
---Brian
Here is 4 of the 15 shot I took on this trip! Enjoy!
Taken here approaching the Marcy Avenue Station on the J/M/Z Broadway Elevated Structure.
Taken here as the excursion train crosses over the interlocking outside of Broadway Juction Station on the L Line.
Taken here as the train lays up beyond Canarsie Yard in prep from the after lunch pick up for the last leg of the trip.
AH THE RARE SHOT! Taken on the ill-fated, soon the be torn down Atlantic Avenue Station Approach Curve.
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
MAGNIFICENT SHOTS! Especially the last one as the train makes the Snediker Ave curve, soon to be given way as a distant memory along the old Myrtle Ave, 3rd Ave, Culver Shuttle and all the el. structures that were demolished.
Ah, yes, nice shots...especially the one at the Atlantic Ave El structure...yes, very nice...
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Trevor, I liked the first one, but they all were very nice.
Thanks for sharing !
Mr rt
Nice photos! Thanks!
---Brian
Great Shots! :-) I love that shot at Marcy with the bridge in the backgorund. I must have gotten off at completely different spots than you as I don't have any of those shots - and I took around 250!
Chris C. Shaffer
Having only heard the type of automated announcements on the 2 line, assumedly the first type, what's this second type that I've been hearing of like?
The first type is the woman and man voice. The woman says what stop the train is at and thhen saying the next stop. The Man says the available transfers and "stand clear of the closing doors please".
The Second type is the two women talking. One woman says what stop is the train at and whats the next stop. The second woman says all the transfers and "stand clear of the closing doors please".
I like the first type voices. The second type voices sound like a woman yelling at you.
Friday on the 2, I had 7086-90/6916-20 set from the 5 line. The new annoucemnts were accurate. The annoucements use two women and the man. When we got to the Bx, the woman sounded like she was getting a kick out of saying: "This is a Wakefield bound 2 train."
Interesting notes:
Correct transfer annoucements for Atlantic, 14St, and Times Square.
3 was added to the transfer annoucements at Fulton.
1 was deleted from the transfer annoucements at 34St.
Still says connection to PATH at Park Place.
I think the recent N/W switch was not updated on the annoucements.
A lot of the locals were quite pleased when we got to 174St and the woman said, "The next stop is West Farms Sq-E.Tremont Ave. I guessed they never heard of West Farms area.
This is all I can remember for now....
Did you notice that the train identification announcement ("This is a Brooklyn-bound 2 express train") takes even longer than before? Did you happen to notice if it's still called an "express train" when it's running the local program? (It still starts calling itself an "express train" at 135th, not 96th, which I find kind of odd.)
It can be programmed to become a 7 Ave Local. IDK what it say though since I was an express. It also can be programmed to run via the Lex.......
We need to start a "142 Creative Fiction" message board.
eBay Items 746278026, 746295120 and 746296338
Excellent Redbird trip today...
The train came a bit late, not sure if the train left C.I. Yard at 0830 hours, I am sure it did...the train came in on the N/B express track...coming from the Culver line and then switching to the CPW tracks. The train went north of 59th St and then came back down on the S/B express track. We rode Corona fleet R33 singles (#9311, 9312, 9313, 9331, 9314(?), 9331, and 9340) on the trip, 6 cars, travelled in IND territory, on the A from 59th St Columbus Circle to Pitkin Yard, relayed, and then left to Howard Beach...we utilized the N/B express layup track to get to Howard Beach, a ery rarely used track nowadays, though it does see more activity with the A train being messed up due to DESP-AirTrain overpass work... Then, we proceeded to Rockaway Park and got some shots along the stretch from Beach 90th to Beach 116th...After that, we took the train from the Rockaway Park line to Jay Street and took the F line to West 4th Street...went from uptown local to downtown local and rode to just past Broadway-Lafayette, where the Chrystie St connection is...
We proceeded into BMT territory from the J line at Essex St to the Willy-B to Marcy St for some photos, then to Myrtle Avenue and then to Broadway Junction, with photo stops at stations from Myrtle to Bway Jct...we flew down the M track after Myrtle, but we used the E/B local track from Marcy to Myrtle...after the train picked us up again, we rode down the L line to Rockaway Parkway for our lunch stop...
After the lunch stop, we rode the Redbird to Bway Jct via the soon-to-be-abandoned-and-torn-down Atlantic Avenue (Manhattan-bound L train platform) elevated structure..."TWU-permitted," said the conductor...we took the train to north of the Bway Jct station and the cross-switch north of the station, switched to Canarsie-bound track to Atlantic Avenue southbound L platform, then wrong-railed to the Jamaica-bound J platform...then, off to the Crescent St station...we would have gone to 111th Street, but due to the J line G.O. this weekend, the RTO personnel were not taking chances with disrupting service (or something like that) so we got shots at Crescent St...after that, the train was headed over back to Myrtle Avenue to run the train up the Myrtle El, the M line, to go to Wyckoff Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue...
We rode on the M track on the J line to get over to Myrtle...(At this point, all Subtalkers that were on the train posed for group pictures, which was kinda funny and chaotic, in a funny way, with people on top of other people and people not included in the pictures due to small space) Some of us got shots at Myrtle-Wyckoff, some just wanted to ride the R-143 M train shuttle...after taking the M train to Myrtle, we waited for the redbird train to Chambers Street (at which, all Subtalkers were once again called for group shots, not a chaotic as the first time, but was funny nevertheless...), with stops at Essex and Canal...the Essex St stop was taken out because there was a service suspension with Brooklyn-bound and Queens-bound F trains...After Chambers, the train ran light back to CI Yard...what WOULD have made the trip better was if we were to run down the Sea Beach line to CI Yard and then whatever at that point, but the trip was fine as it was...
Among the Subtalkers, ERA members, and other group members that I remember and saw...
DaShawn Pretlow, Trevor Logan, Frankie Perez, Thomas Rice, Marquise, Danny, Sid Keyles, Andrew Grahl, John Pappas, Mark W., conductor for the excursion trip, Larry R33 Redbird, Bill from Maspeth, Mark Feinman(?), Nick, etc. (was that Harry Beck on our trip too?)
If there's anyone else I forgot, please forgive me, just add your name to my list, ok???
Thank you very much...BTW, my photos came out ok, but could have been better...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
I thought we were riding in R-36 cars, no?
Nope, the R36/R36WF cars were cars #9347-9769...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
9346-9523, 9558-9769 WF R36
9524-9557 ML R36.
#9440 7 Flushing Local
That "TWU-permitted" reference was actually made by the Train Service Supervisor (or Motor-Instructor) assigned to the special.
I was rushing to try to get to Jamaica for the Tri-State computer Fair, which ended at 3:30, I saw where a J just left Bwy Jct, but when I get down to the platform, I see this redbird, and at first thought it was a work train, but it had people, and when I saw the QJ, I remembered the fantrip.
[what WOULD have made the trip better was if we were to run down the Sea Beach line to CI Yard and then whatever at that point, but the trip was fine as it was...]
The original plan called for a trip to Coney Island on the Culver, a swing through C.I. Yard and back via the Brighton Line. The G.O. on the Brighton halting service around Prospect Park nixed that idea and lead to the itinerary on the Eastern Division. All in all, things worked out very well, I thought.
I was the guy who WASN'T there, but was instead stuck in nine degree F weather in upstate NY working on his group project in CEE 593 class and counting the days till he graduates and moves to NYC.
All those associated with todays Redbird trip have done themselves proud. First, The ERA: The staff of NY Divisional Chairman Bill Erland did a fantastic job of organization. Thank goodness for a great turnout. These things are extremely expensive to operate. What if you can't break even? They made a decision to operate the trip despite the fact they weren't sure if this would happen. They got burned on the FL9 trip a few years ago due to a low turnout caused by intense unforseen competition on that day including MN's open house. As much as there is a core group who enjoy these trips, future trips cannot be operated if there is a deficit. From that informative souvenir package (written by George Chiasson Jr.), please consider joining ERA. Even if you can't attend the meeetings, the monthly newsletter and invitation to future trips are well worth the yearly membership fee. Second, The attendees: What a fantastic turnout by SubTalkers! Take a bow! I was the older fat guy with the blue coat and red Saratoga baseball cap. So great to see all you young guys: the next generation to keep this kind of thing alive when we're too old to attend or just flat out dead! I remember all the old timers 20-30 years ago when I was a young railfan and those guys can no longer attend due to the above 2 reasons cited. The torch is about to be passed! Finally: to the TA staff. Motorman Tony, Conductor Mark, and M/I Bill. They logged a lot of miles and coordinated moves with the various towers. Many thanks guys. And the cars performed flawlessly (9338, 9311, 9312, 9313, 9340, and 9331). Hope I didn't leave anyone out! A great time was had by all.
[What if you can't break even? They made a decision to operate the trip despite the fact they weren't sure if this would happen.]
The final numbers aren't in yet, but I suspect the Division will lose money despite the nice turnout for today's trip. We felt we need to provide a service to our members and to area railfans. I'm glad you and others enjoyed the trip. We in the Division were glad to organize it for everyone who was there.
By the way, I was the one handing out the yellow souvenir brochures (other than those handed out by my wife).
Interesting. Three consecutively-numbered singles. Were they in fact coupled together?
Yes, they were, and in that order.
David
Cool!
I have yet to see a 3-car light rail train in Denver with consecutively numbered cars. OTOH I've seen two consecutively numbered cars coupled together lots of times.
I wish I got the chance to meet you!
--Mark
>>Even if you can't attend the meeetings, the monthly newsletter and invitation to future trips are well worth the yearly membership fee.<<
I look forward to receiving my NY Division bulletin every month. There's a whole world of news about our subway, nearby commuter rail as well as distant commuter rail and subways. You learn a lot from these tidbits of information.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's true. I am considering the possibility of becoming a Subscriber, something I haven't done previously. I don't get to the Meetings often since I work.
A departed colleague who was an ERA member used to show me copies of the Bulletin. There was an incredible amount of information to be read!
Thanks for the Calendar. I enjoyed it!
-Stef
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have photos of R46 #1181 from the February 1979 collision at the spur track just north of Tower "A" in Coney Island Yard? Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Bob
Anyone have ridership figures for the #4 line 138 St - Woodlawn each stop?
Hello all! I am so glad everyone enjoyed the trip! For those of you that did not meet me, I was the Conductor. I am looking forward to seeing all the pics. Especially the group shots! Nice meeting you all again!!!!!!!!!!
-Mark W.
To tell u Mark u was a excellent conductor on this fan trip hope u do it again on the next fan trip.
Thank you, Mark, and everyone else who ran and organized the show. I had a wonderful time and it was great meeting so many SubTalkers (unfortunately, we were so well represented that I couldn't meet everyone).
I'll try to have the photos up tomorrow. I'm afraid my two SubTalk group photos didn't come out well.
Relax I think I got you covered in that dept. I will post one up in a day or so.
I had a great time as well. I am very happy I went. The train certainly did a great job. Did any one notice a slight difference in the speed? Car # 9338 seemed to be the second best car to ride. Car # 9331 ruled the trip. ERA.....Thank you for a great fan trip!!!!
Mark was very informative. He pointed out things as the train progressed such as the cut we used to go from the IND to BMT Essex had be used in regular service in over 25 years and that we were on the last IRT train to transverse the Carnarsie line portion at Atlantic Ave since it is to be taken OOS next weekend and eventually torn down.
I have the fantrip special videotaped as it rode on the Snediker Ave El and did that reverse move through Broadway Junction. An excellent trip! The use of the R-11/R-16 destination signs was a great, unexpected touch! Mark W. really is a great C/R. If I had a nickel for everytime he had to say "this is NOT the J train" or "this excursion train is not in service", I would break even on the fare for this trip! Kudos to all the organizers.
Car 9313 is going to be repainted in the World's Fair scheme and christened the "State of Subtalk". There must have been 50 of us hanging from the "straps" and poles for the group photo.
There would have been more of us for the first group photo had the call for the group picture not come while racing down the Broadway El between Bway Junction & Bway/Myrtle - we got up to about 43 mph. I was NOT going to miss THAT!
--Mark
Mark W-
Kudos to you, the crew and the ERA folks who organized this trip. Your commentary during the trip added to the sites we saw. Also, you did a wonderful job of informing passengers at the stations we stopped at of our trip. It certainly was a pleasure to interact with railfans of all ages!
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
Mark W. Please e-mail em off-site. I wish to submit a compliment on your commentary.
Did anyone take a picture of the Redbirds at or near the Crescent St Station while they were displaying the #14 Crescent St signs?
I DID..I got a few
Is there any chance that you could put one up?
That was my home station before I left the city 45 years ago!
I live there now. I'm right on Hemlock St. Of course I will put one up. I will make another announcement up here when I do.
That would be great!
I lived on Campus Place. I think that intersects with your street at about 219 Hemlock St.
I put them up....I think it is photo number 68 and 69. So take a look
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
Mark, did you point out to the group that LIRR/Canarsie Line switch remnant just north of New Lots Avenue station? Being the 'seasoned Transit Professional' that you are I would have hoped you would have done so...:)
President Bush has named the Chairman of CSX, John W. Snow, as the next Treasury Secretary. See:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28400-2002Dec8.html
CG
And it looks like the stock market's already having a hissy fit over the choice. Investors apparently wanted an financier rather than someone from the industrial side.
Oh, goody. The CEO of one of the most screwed up railroads in America.
Yeah, you don't get more screwed up than replacing E8's with F40's on your Business Train.....
Take Pride,
Brian
Snow was a bad choice for Treasury, his igniting of the Conrail mess was what put CSX stock in the toilet. (Snow should have asked the STB for a merger moratorium) Besides, CSX track is the WORST in the North American Class 1 railroad industry. Oh, well bu$h just wanted a yes-boy for his stupid economic plan. Smart Investors will sell US based securities and buy European or Asian ones. The reputability of US corporations will go deeper in the toilet until they start living up to their moral responsibilities and treat employees and communities with the same respect they do their stockholders and embrace regulations designed to insure that they engage in good corporate citizenship. Morality has just a little to with blue dresses. and a lot to do with how powerful entities deal with ALL of their stakeholders. VOTE 100% STRAIGHT DEMOCRAT.
while defending Snow makes me unhappy, the Conrail fight was ultimately neccessary. The cowardice of previous Chessie managers who let E-L, and RDG/CNJ go into Conrail thus giving up the New York market was a fatal maneuver. Even then the intermodal handwriting was on the wall. In turn access from the South to NY was subject to Conrail whim--not good for reliability.
The net result was CSX was very weak in the NE, and Conrail was becoming more integrated with NS (Triple Crown etc) Remember too, that NS had tried for Conrail once before.
N&W owned EL when it went bankrupt in June, 1972. PRR Owned N&W until 1964. Robert Young controlled NYC and C&O in rhe '50s. When you think about it, Senile reagan should not have let wall street get Conrail back. We taxpayers paid to repair the private sector's mistakes, and Wall Street reaps the rewards. Of course "what's good for GM " Corrupt eisenhower's trillion dollar welfare gift to the auto industry was no help, either
PRR owned 41 % of N & W. That was divested as a prelude to PC. Robery Young sold his C*O sock to buy NYC. In gact there was litigation in regard to that sale after his death by his widow.
Whil;e EL was 'owned' by N&W throug DERECO, they surrendered ownership durng the US Railway Assn negotiations which lead to Conrail. At the same time Chessie 'gave away' EDG/CNJ, PC's ownership of LV was at issue etc. During the negotiations, USRA wanted Chessie to get EL so they would have a viable NY-Chgo intermodal route. Chessie balked at havng tomaintain union contracts then in force and we got Conrail with everything. The result in the early years was mass confusion and lousy railroading. Sadly most of the tracks of all of the carrers were torn up. Check a current Ohio or PA map and compare to before.
In my hindsight influenced mind, I am sad that the C&O boys were so unwilling to consider Perlman's plea to join the B&O/C&O. It was trackage and routewise a good fit. Nevertheless reality IS.
The Chessie fatcats had to let it die so the Government could fix it up at our expense.
partially true. The other reality of the Conrail era was the wholesale scrapping of 'capacity'. In 1972 a study done for the banruptcy trustee of PC--a very GOOD railroader IMHO--showed PC could return to solvency by shutting down the 80% of trackage which generated only 20% of carloadings. Labor was furious. My view of Conrail was that it was an unholy alliance of the auto makers who needed reliable service, the labor crowd who wanted job protection and the localities facing huge tax losses as 'valuable' real estate evaporated. Early Conrail tried to keep more trackage, it was when the Harley Staggers act came along that they abandoned with a vengeance. Having shed all the low volume lines Conrail specialised in intermodal hotshots and disdained short hauls.
PS. Sadly, in my view, personalities have gotten in the way in some of these RR maneuvers--remember when SP and SCL wer engaged?
The SP guys were way too arrogant and SCL left then 'alone at the church' then made the only other deal available with Chessie. Although it fit fairly well in routings, a true transcon would have been far better for rail service.
I agree with you 100% except for one thing. Corporations treat their shareholders with the same contempt that they show their employees, customers, and the public at large. Corporations are run for the benefit of a few select insiders, Enron being a prime example.
"Oh, well bu$h just wanted a yes-boy for his stupid economic plan."
Correct. Actually, the Bush Administration has been very explicit about appointing department heads which get marching orders from the White House and take very little initiative on their own. That is the Bush White House style. Look at other appointees (Justice, HHS, CDC, etc.) and you'll see the same thing.
Bush (along with Andrew Card and budget director Mitch Daniels) create the plan, and everybody else follows that plan, while finding ways to sell it to the public.
In a sense the Nixon White House was not that different, but my impression is that several department heads were, on the whole, more savvy and independent and Nixon did not interfere with them.
This does not mean Idon't like everybody in the Administration today. Colin Powell won my respect a long time ago - but he's very constrained, constrained in a way that Henry Kissinger was not when he served in the Nixon Administration.
He's the master of "trickle down" ... first thing on his agenda is getting rid of Amtrak once and for all. Watch federal money to railroads to take over the airlines. Among some of his other agenda is to eliminate corporate taxes and the "inheritence tax" (now called the "death tax" to make it more palatable) entirely as well as capital gains. This will of course put ALL of the taxation onto hourly employees. Anyone who's worked for CSX can tell you what a $cumbag this guy is - I wish I could say I was surprised. We're back to Reagan again. Only thing missing is Attorney General John Mitchell and Bebe Rebozo.
This appointment was NOT good news. Especially for Wall Street.
>>> Only thing missing is Attorney General John Mitchell and Bebe Rebozo. <<<
They were not nearly as dangerous as Ashcroft.
Tom
Feh, Ashcroft's a pu$$y. SHOW him a teat, and he'll go straight into the fetal position. That's why he spent OUR money on that blue curtain. For me, I'm kinda GLAD that John Snow got selected, he's one of GERALD FORD'S wunderkind ... "whoops ... whoops, NO PROBLEM ... LIBERTY, HEEL!" Snow is one of the mental giants who gave us that crafty "WIN FOOTBALL" ("Whip Inflation NOW") solution to the usual republican "let's print money until we go broke to solve our deficit" mindset. And hey - we're ALREADY in debt, let's go for DOUBLE-DIGIT INFLATION! Whoo-hoo! Worked before - anyone who lived through the SEVENTIES is gonna ***LOVE*** the Shrub dynasty!
WIN FOOTBALL ... who's your daddy? :)
Ok I took this one obviously on Sunday. So take a look
It works in the preview feature. So tell me what you think.
Anthony
Nice. It works. I mean, of course it works. :)
Tony, great shot! Of course, what makes it even better is the Wyckoff Avenue curve on my former home line.
Gotta love those headlights.
Your picture reminds me of a cartoon I saw in a girlie book when I was younger.
2 aliens land on earth and the first human they encountered was a women with 2 large.... you know what, sunbathing on a backyard porch. They approach the woman quietly. She is sitting in a folding chair with a towel around her head and her 2 large.... er you know what exposed and one alien says to the other:
"Biggest damm eyes I ever saw!"
LOL!
I guess someone picked up the pun when I said, "Gotta love those headlights"!
Thanks Tony. That's a great shot at Wyckoff Avenue. Much appreciated.
Sincerely,
Bob
You'd think those are R-16s. Are the marker lights set correctly?
Well they may be R16 Rollsigns, but the red train in the scene sure reminds me of the R27-30's in their final days as Redbirds making that same curve.
Tony: Great shot. It was nice to meet you.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Nice meeting you too......MORE PHOTOS TO COME
I found a surprising statement in the fantrip souvenir booklet.
In "A Brief Synopsis of the Redbirds," Eric R. Oszustowicz comments in the second paragraph that "All R26's, R28's & R29's have been removed from service" -- so this article appears to be pretty much up-to-date. The fourth paragraph, however, claims that
The Redbirds are being replaced by new R142's and R142A's. Barring service cuts, there will not be enough new cars to replace all the redbirds. This is due to dramatic increases in ridership over the last few years which have caused a need for more trains. Therefore, a relatively small number of Redbird trains will continue to wander the system for the foreseeable future.
I thought the TA's stance on this had changed last year, and that all Redbirds would be retired from passenger service. Has there been a recent reversal? If so, which cars will be retained and which line will they serve?
Rush hour service only. Example: the #2 and #4. Redbirds haven't been saved ( as a whole) and are still ( for teh most part) headed for teh ocean. Only the Best of teh best will be saved.
Latest rumour is that 10 trainsets will be stored. The vines on which this rumour grows change daily .....
--Mark
Mr. Greenberger:
Well, the evidence is pretty strong but still circumstantial. If you add up present requirements and projected fleet numbers there is a small equipment deficit. Also, there are those 40-odd Mainline R-33s now getting the re-overhaul.
In my OPINION, there will be about 70 R-33MLs still active when all is said and done, probably used on the 2 and 5 lines in rush hours when there aren't enough R-142s available. Now, if the R-142s ever become as reliable as advertised...
As for the singles, the MTA states definitively they have plans to retain all 38 for future work service, along with about 58 "other Redbirds." More circumstantial evidence! Any retention above that 90-100 level is highly doubtful due to space and security constraints. Chances are probably also good that the NYC Transit Museum will be able to have some preserved in-house for historic purposes. Maybe that would be a good excuse to run another fantrip someday?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Interesting. I thought the TA had made the final decision last year that all the Redbirds would be gone from passenger service. Personally, I'll be thrilled if your prediction comes true and some R-33's come back home to the 2, even if only on an occasional basis.
While we're discussing articles in the souvenir handout, I would like to thank you for your detailed R-26/28/29 history and hope to see a similar treatment of the R-33 and R-36.
(There's really no need to address me so formally, BTW.)
I personally think the Redbirds will come back to the 2 if they are needed.
George is very knowledgable in this subject.
-Stef
Indeed he is -- I don't know where he gets his information from, but it's always accurate. I am looking forward to see how this turns out.
I have to admit that today's trip was quite good. It's been so long since I had been on a fan trip, today's excursion was a must. Station Agents are entitled to a brief respite, so I found a reason to take the day off. Thank God for AVAs.
It was a pleasure to meet with fellow SubTalkers and Branfordites. A certain BMT Fan (or Man?) pursued the train from Liberty Av to Rockaway Pkwy (with a camera in hand). Seeing a friend, who was also the C/R for the trip, was quite a treat. He did extremely well. I don't get to see Mark W. doin' his thing every day. LOL!
Someone listened! I questioned the suggestion of putting BMT signage in IRT Redbirds here on SubTalk a few days ago, but it was done today. Seeing the 10 making the curve at Wykoff Av on a frigid Sunday evening was dramatic to say the least.
Car movements were interesting. I think the best one was wrongrailing into the Junction from Atlantic Av, passing confused J line riders on the way to Chauncey Middle. Heh. What is this shiny red thing that passes me?!?! Fellow Transit employees not on the trip appeared to be watching the activites with interest.
This was also a good day to determine what the next RT acquisition should be at Branford (Time For Stef's wishlist, heh). History repeats itself - R-17 #6688 was among the cars used during the 1987 fan trip and subsequently came up to BERA a few months later. Could another car from a fan trip head up north? A Branford Colleague approached me about which R-33 should be picked out. 9313 looks like a fine car. Our TSS who coordinated the trip, who is a prominent BERA Member, will hold the car for the taking. This is a joke of course, but given the opportunity, I would probably do it...
I'm only sorry it wasn't warmer. The R-33's heating system didn't work too well.
Two themes came out of this - Farewell to the Redbirds, and Farewell to the El at Snediker Av. They may be gone, but they shall not be forgotten....
-Stef
Two themes came out of this - Farewell to the Redbirds, and Farewell to the El at Snediker Av. They may be gone, but they shall not be forgotten....
I'm glad everyone had a good time. I had to work, so unfortunately I couldn't make it. I will have to rely on my fellow SubTalker's photos, which I have been enjoying so far.
BTW, I remember someone saying that this weekend was going to be the last weekend for the Snediker El. Did that happen?
We were transversing the old el at Snediker Avenue. Work was in progress (as we passed) where personnel were working on the new section of track and getting it ready for use.
-Stef
Right you are Stef. I was over at Atlantic Ave on the "L" awaiting the arrival of the 'birds with a fellow SubTalker/Branfordite (RIPTA42). We were on the platform amid trackworkers who were busy with the northbound crossover on the new Q2 track (formerly a K1).
Looks like Sneidiker will be 'out of business' by time 2003 rolls around :(
"BTW, I remember someone saying that this weekend was going to be the last weekend for the Snediker El. Did that happen?"
That's last weekEND, not last WEEK. We'll find out this weekend whether the one that just passed was the last one. I'm told that if the cutover isn't done this weekend, it will have to wait until Spring (strike or no strike).
David
Stef, as for the BMT signage on the Redbirds -- gotta thank your C/R for that move...clever idea...added a nice touch.
Nice collector's items. Must be hard to find these days.
-Stef
Some of us would like to see 1575 make its way to Shoreline. Wishful thinking, huh?
We can make it possible. Never say never. We'd just have to look for people who support that idea.
-Stef
When crossing between cars I always hold the door handles for safety.
I notice the conductors usually grab the bar above and to the right of the doors when they cross. Is that safer? It seems more awkward since you have to release your hand from the door handle to grab the bar...
I always use the fixed bars too. The door can move, thereby increasing your chances of losing your grip, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Were the R-40 slants really unsafe for crossing? If so, why, if they were close to touching below?
When the R-40's first came out, there were no real handles for crossing safely between cars. Especially at the slanted ends. Handles had to be added by TA before the cars could be used in customer service.
There still are no actual handles. The ugly protrusions suffice on the slanted ends, but there's still nothing on the unslanted ends.
If one can grab them, they are handles.
He is referring to the blind "B" ends of the R40 and R40M. At those ends, there are NO grab handles between the cars, only those silly chains wrapped in rubber sheathing. The "A" ends have the heavy-duty ironmongery on them.
wayne
Whatever you can grab then it's a handle.
>>>, but there's still nothing on the unslanted ends. <<<
Very true, there is NOTHING to grab on to on the "B" ends.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then people shouldn't be walking from car to car. Doing so is risking your life. Chances are nothing will happen. But sometimes something does. How badly does one want to warrent the evening news?
Yes they were unsafe b/c back in 1967-1968, they didn't have pantograph gates and the bars yet. The TA wanted to have a futuristic looking car but due to unsafe passage btw the slant ends, they were eventually modified at first with 2 hand bars on the outside and then the pantographs came on due to safety reasons.
I'm with Andee and the C/R's here. I specifically want to avoid sudden jolts to the left or right, since those are the directions I can't afford to fall -- so what good is it to hold onto an object that slides left and right? On all cars but the R-40(M) (which don't have handlebars on alternate crossings) and the R-142(A) (whose double doors are difficult to open singlehandedly), it's easy to have one hand on a handlebar at all times while stepping between cars: slide door open with left hand, reach forward and grab bar on the car you're entering with right hand, step through, and slide door open with left hand; or, alternatively, slide door open with left hand, grab bar on the car you're leaving with right hand, step through, grab bar on car you're entering with left hand, slide door open with right hand.
Follow the rule of three points of contact at all times. Two feet and a hand on the grab iron.
Agreed, LOU
Peace,
ANDEE
I usually use the bars too. Basically I hold on to the grab iron with my left hand and open the with the right hand. I think it's the safest way to cross between cars especially considering the train could rock from side to side, buckle or slow suddenly.
Wayne
I think the safest way to cross from car to car is to wait until the train has stopped at a station. Chances are nothing will happen on a moving train with the handles, chains or whatever you use to hold on with. But do you want to risk your life? It just takes one jolt and it was nice knowing you.
Using the solid "grab irons" is part of your safety training. They don't move like door handles do. Technically, you're not supposed to pass between cars at all under the law. But if you do, use the grab irons as they're not going to surprise you (except on redbirds of course - be sure to hand it in to the conductor if it breaks off in your hand, you're not allowed to take state property home). :)
Just wondering if any intrepid subtalkers from Toronto have posted any photos yet from the new Sheppard Subway. Toronto is one of my favorite subway systems and I'd love to see what the new line looks like.
Mark
This is my first fantrip and lest to say it was well worth the time, money, and I had LOTS of fun. First off, thank you all subtalkers for having a ball (escpecially with the group shots and MAN we thought we were on the Cyclone at Coney Island once we left Myrtle Ave-Broadway going up the M line, swerving left and right as we cross over to the now-defunct MJ tracks). Mark the C/R, you did an incredible job of telling us some history (I did helped you out on the Jamaica El. opening.) Nice to meet Bill of Maspeth and Bill "Newkirk" from our favorite subway line. The next fantrip I will be attending, I will have a real camera this time. And for those who could not attend yeaterday's excursion or just plainly "boycotted" it, you missed a lot of photo ops. and fun (no Fred we did not pass through your favorite subway line, we didn't pass through mine either due to the Atlantic Ave G.O.) THANK YOU EVERYONE, SEE YOU ON THE NEXT EXCURSION.
Kool D: It was nice to meet you.
Larry, RedbirdR33
This is my first fantrip and lest to say it was well worth the time, money, and I had LOTS of fun. First off, thank you all subtalkers for having a ball (escpecially with the group shots and MAN we thought we were on the Cyclone at Coney Island once we left Myrtle Ave-Broadway going up the M line, swerving left and right as we cross over to the now-defunct MJ tracks). Mark the C/R, you did an incredible job of telling us some history (I did helped you out on the Jamaica El. opening.) Nice to meet Bill of Maspeth and Bill "Newkirk" from our favorite subway line. The next fantrip I will be attending, I will have a real camera this time. And for those who could not attend yeaterday's excursion or just plainly "boycotted" it, you missed a lot of photo ops. and fun (no Fred we did not pass through your favorite subway line, we didn't pass through mine either due to the Atlantic Ave G.O.) THANK YOU EVERYONE, SEE YOU ON THE NEXT EXCURSION.
Opps, I misspelled the word trip in the SUBJECT, sorry!
Does anyone know how to interpret the two part serial numbers on current Metrocards? I mean, if I have two Metrocards and they both have the same "second half" of the serial number, I assume that means I bought them from the same MVM? And on these two cards, the "first half" of the serial number is only different by one digit, the last one. So I figure this means I bought both cards at the same MVM, one right after the other? Would this be correct?
Take Pride,
Brian
The two numbers are simple:
the first is the serial number. Each card has a different serial number, currently 10 digits.
The second is a batch number and is currently an 8 dight number
With all this ERA fantrip talk, I think we should illustrate what we are talking about when we mention the old EL at Snediker Avenue and the track being connected to it. Here is a photo looking railroad-west from the Sutter Av platform. Ahead, you can see the new Manhattan-bound L track that hasn't been connected yet, and the track to the right is the currently used track. The photo below was taken on 11/27/2002, and when I have time, I will upload a bunch more photos of this general area taken on this date. Enjoy!
Take Pride,
Brian
No such thing as railroad-west in the subway.
Maybe not. But that picture makes the whole rebuilding process easy to understand.
Otherwise, great picture!
SIRT uses East and West. East is to Tottenville snd West is to St George. Yes- I knwo this soudns backwards but it is not wrong-- the line ran further so the directiosn are right. I'll leave it to Hank or our other Staten Islanders to explain further.
Tottenville is railroad east of St. George essentially because it is B&O east, its former parent road.
Thanks, Paul! That is what I like about this site. We pitch in our separate heads and coem up with a full answer .
Just to confuse you even more, when the LIRR still operated the Rockaway Line Rockaway Park was EAST and Far Rockaway was WEST!!! If you were taking a train from lets say Hewlett or Woodmere to Rockaway Park you'd be traveling East according to the railroad. Even now, when the line only goes to Far Rockaway the railroad would consider you to be travelling East if you went from Woodmere to Far Rockaway!!!
Good thing locomotive engineers don't carry compasses!!!
Everything leaving New York or Hoboken on NJ Transit is considered heading "west". And that includes the Coast Line to Long Branch and Bay Head. Similar to your example, a train traveling from Hazlet toward Middletown is said to be heading "west", even though the train is travelling due east.
DOH! But it makes so much sense, the L goes like "subway map" fake east-west. In reality I guess that photo is looking both railroad and actual north.
Actually, we are looking BRT west, which is also railroad west (as in the original Canarsie RR). You are looking SUBWAY north.
Subway north-south are IRT-influenced. East-west was what was used by the BRT and AFAIK the BMT until the City changed it for uniformity.
East-west fits Brooklyn and Queens better.
Then is Times Square "north" or "south" on the Times Square - Grand Central Shuttle?
On the 42 St Shuttle, Times Square is north of Grand Central.
Presumably because it was north on the original IRT subway line.
It is somewhat unusual, though, since Times Square is south of Grand Central on the 7. Are there any other station pairs (A,B) in the system with the property that A is north of B on one line but south of B on another? I can think of some past examples but none in the current system.
I can think of some past examples.....
The suspense is killing us.
Well, I don't know all the details of how the direction system works, but I assume that no line switches orientation in the middle.
There are a few connections around the system that carry trains between two sections of track in what would be conventionally thought of as running in opposite directions: the Chrystie Street cut, the Broadway Junction connection, and Stillwell are the three I can think of.
Let's say 57th Street was considered the north terminal of the K/KK. It continued to run south from Essex to Eastern Parkway, even though the J ran north from Essex to Eastern Parkway.
As for Stillwell, consider the NX. Southbound trains, after reaching Stillwell, continued "south" to Brighton Beach, while through Brighton line trains treated that as north.
Trivia question. I can think of two stations (not station complexes) where northbound trains on one line run exactly parallel to and in the same direction as southbound trains on a different line. Which stations?
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets (same level) and 7th Avenue/53rd Street (upper/lower levels).
(Extra credit?) Although not regularly scheduled, I have seen the northbound Franklin Avenue Shuttle in revenue service depart on the track directly across the platform from the southbound Brighton line.
Although not regularly scheduled, I have seen the northbound Franklin Avenue Shuttle in revenue service depart on the track directly across the platform from the southbound Brighton line.
Oops, scratch that. They obviously still run in opposite directions.
Got it. (Are there any others? As I said, I can't think of any.)
Here's my guess (and I didn't peek)
Seventh Av (Manhattan)
Stillwell Av
You're halfway there. Stillwell doesn't qualify because it's currently only served by the W. Even when it was served by four lines, it could have been considered a station complex with four separate stations side-by-side.
"...I assume that no line switches orientation in the middle."
What about the Nassau Street Loop in the old configuration, pre-Chrystie Street?
GREAT! photo--thanks :)
GREAT! photo and superb detailed synopsis for us
'little-known' weefolk... thx too!
Are they restoring a section of track here, or creating a new piece?
Also is this intened to speed up the train (less GTs)?
I believe they are creating a new piece. I assume they are doing it to be able to abandon a platform at Atlantic Av, as well as a ton of superstructure. There are many benefit$ that come from doing that.
---Brian
Bush's new Secretary of the Treasury is John Snow, CEO of CSX.
Having someone knowledgeable in the economies of rail transportation in a high administration post is worthwhile.
This is not necessarily good for balanced transportation, but it can't be bad. At worst its nothing either way.
"At worst its nothing either way."
At worst he has no idea about how to create a sensible economic policy, introduces counter-productive economic measures, and the economy gets worse than ever and the stock market drops another 50%.
Knowing how to run a corporation (asusming he does) does not mean knowing how to run an economy.
This is a transit forum, and my comment went only so far as a judgment of transportation.
CSX has been a progessive company in what was a difficult field. Being able to compete effectively when all your modal competition is government subsidized in no mean feat.
I hope Snow will do a good job. But I'm afraid his real task will be convincing Congress that we can cut taxes more, increase spending, and still balance the budget (someday) so that (those born before 1955) can collect Social Security. In other words, a "Snow" job.
Having someone knowledgeable in the economies of rail transportation in a high administration post is worthwhile.
Didn't CSX suffer a bunch of mishaps (including Amtrak derailments) and extra FRA scrutiny because of lousy track maintenance? I'm not sure that's a good record for advocating the economies of rail...
CSX's M/W program is a JOKE.
The dream of an Airline Free future came one step closer today with United Airlines going bankrupt. We can only hope that this causes disruption, inconvience and higher ticket prices for passengers so that that can consider more rational, rail alternatives to flying. With the airlines hemoraging money, we can only hope that flying will become akin to having a hot poker jabbed into your eye and wallet (or more so depending on your point of view) as passengers pay more of the true economic cost of flying.
When I have a one week vacation and wish to spend it in New York, I can't afford to spend six days out of the seven in transit. (I live in Los Angeles.) Don't get me wrong - I'm all for an improved national rail system, but air travel does have its place.
Your problem is that you are living in LA. If you lived in New Jersey it would only take you 45 minutes to get to NYC. 'Sides, you are probably comming to New York to Railfan, so why not just railfan on the way to and from?
Think about the rest of society before you type, or if that's too much at least just think. Not everyone is a railfan, and even some railfans (like myself) want to get to my destination as quickly as possible. I'm not willing to take all day to travel to any domestic destination when it takes no more than 6 hours to fly anywhere in the lower 48. Rail has its place competing and *complementing* regional air service. Long distance service is strictly made for leisure travel, and transport's bread and butter is business.
Time is MONEY, the entire transportation system since the dawn of man has been made to move people as quickly as possible. There is NO WAY in hell that any civilization will revert to a slower mode when the current mode generally works well.
You are also forgetting that KE=mv^2 Double your speed and your quadruple the amount of energy required. Airliners are an incredible waste of resources and our appitite for speed at any cost in inherently unsustainable. Trains should be used for all trips under 8 hours in a day or overnight for an 9 AM arrival from a prior 6PM departure.
Don't forget about all the kinetic friction that the airplane doesn't have to deal with because it doesn't roll along the ground. And while we're on physics (i have to take my final tomorrow), I'd wager that the expansion of gas in a jet engine is a more efficient conversion to kinetic energy than the electric motors in an engine.
By the way, if every person who uses airplanes suddenly started using railroads, calculate how much energy would be required in building all the new rails and trains to carry all those new passengers.
Railroads actually have probably the lowest kenetic and static friction of any transport medium. The area of contact per wheel is the size of a dime and the forward cross section for air resistance is only about 10 feet x 15 feet.
perhaps, but trains have that kinetic friction for the entire duration of the trip. planes only have to fight friction on takeoff.
By the way, lets not forget that friction is a function of the mass. An empty Boeing 777 (holds about 350 passengers, so it's a good plane for comparison) weighs 319,300 lbs (about 160 tons). An empty acela trainset weighs 552.9 tons, nearly 4 times as much. So now, including the fact that it has to counteract friction based on 4 times as much mass constantly, a plane travelling twice as fast as a train uses up the same amount of energy as the train.
planes only have to fight friction on takeoff
Nope. If that were the case, then a plane could just turn off the engines once it has leveled off and coast all the way. There are FOUR (and only four) forces which ALWAYS act on a plane: lift, drag, gravity and thrust. Taking off requires more power>energy>force because the plane is accelerating and knowing F=ma, you know that acceleration requires more force than near constant speed.
I agree with you that railroads are very efficient. It takes a lot of energy to fly. For short and medium distances railroads can serve quite fine. Longer distances air travel would be a necessity if time is a factor. What is needed is a balnced system of transportation. At the present time, there are too many short distance airplane flights available and they are crowding the skies. In the most part, the infrastructure for improved passenger rail service is already in place, though in many instances it would need to be upgraded. They can also electrify many of the major passenger routes so that diesel locomotives would be needed as much. It might be less costly to upgrade passenger rail facilities than it is to build or upgrade airports.
#3 West End Jeff
Hehe, I had my final today, TDEC 111 at Drexel, kinda sad to see it go, it will be a while til I get back to physics, too bad cause I like it.
Course Jersey Mike posted an equation with little concept of the variables. Lemme point out the little "m" in there, that's mass. All those precious FRA regs and stuff have driven our rail equipment to be of such undreamt of weight that we now need 12500 hp to, barely, move 400 some people at 150 mph, all while sucking back megawatts from the grid. Also planes operate up at 30000 ft +, where the atmosphere thins out and there is less resistance to the plane.
You're also forgetting that most locomotives and rolling stock are covered with all kinds of fun protuberances and stuff, just to drive aerodynamicists nuts. Even the Acelas have bumps and dips in the roofline, these are especially visible post-shroud.
General Aviation planes are more streamlined than the Acela, even the Cessna 150, which cruises at less than 120mph, was built with more of an eye toward streamlining than the Acela. In fact, I would submit that General Aviation planes are among the most efficient forms of transportation going. They are light, powered by relatively small engines, and have no road ro rail to wheel drag. Plus, a even with headwinds, a Cessna 150 will fly at an average speed of 90+ mph, which means 90mph steady, not jolting up to 150 for 3 minutes before slamming on the brakes for the MN and crawling at 80 for the rest of the trip. Of course, all the ownership costs and stuff fall directly on the owner, and they are quite considerable, but then, there's always renting!
And yes, I cannot see how a Jet engine could be less efficient on an airliner than a diesel-generator-motor set could be on a Locomotive. The Jet is operating in it's element, where the air is too thin for a reciprocating piston engine to get without massive and wasteful supercharging (although that's all a jet is, a mega-turbocharger for compressing gas for use in a pistion engine, with the piston removed and replaced by a combuster, which provides one, continuous, power stroke). The diesel is also quite efficient, since it too is in it's element, close to sea level (at least most of the US), which means that it's cylinders can be filled with lots of air to be compressed. Also, since it just shoots a squirt of fuel into the cylinder, it is a regular ULEV. However, by the time you account for the friction, the HEP load, the overweight equipment, the rail-wheel friction, and all that, the jet undoubtedly wins.
However, don't take this the wrong way and assume that, because the jet is good in an airliner, it must be better in a train. We have all seen the problems associated with TELs and Turbo trains. Rail is the realm of the diesel, it does not need the altitude capablity of the jet, it does not need the speed of the exhaust to propel it. A jet in a train cannot help but fail, especially with the new lightweight diesels that europe is putting out for the Talgo and stuff. The TEL would fall victim to the same things that play on the diesel, mostly friction, HEP load, and the mass of the cars.
I want to see rail in this country make a comeback too, but not at the cost of out flag carriers, kill some of the JetBleus (Airtrash flyers that they are), Shuttle operations and so on. Perhaps a return to regulation is needed, to get the air shuttles out of here, and free up space now taken up by damn Bombardier RJs and Embraer ERJs (gee wanna guess what RJ stands for?!). I cannot fathom the person that subjects themselves to an airline ride where you travel less than 200 miles. No sooner do you get up to altitude and out of philly's airspace than you are dropping again into the pattern of JFK.
Course, if Agusta-Bell and/or Boeing can ever get the V-22 civilian mod working, it might really give acela and the NEC a run for it's money, since it would be able to fly South Street heliport, or anywhere else convienent to anywhere within 1000 miles and do so at some 300 mph. It's not hard to see a kind of "milk run" springing up with these, to ferry the upper-middle, and upper class (who can't quite afford their own) around.
I want to see rail in this country make a comeback too, but not at the cost of out flag carriers, kill some of the JetBleus (Airtrash flyers that they are)
Discount carriers like JetBlue and Southwest should be commended for their efficiency. They provide quality service while keeping their costs - and therefore average fares - at much lower levels than the major airlines. Fly JetBlue, and you'll have a seatback TV with 35 channels and a leather seat. Just try finding that in coach on a "conventional" airline.
I have noticed very little difference in the visible demographics of the passengers on discount carriers and conventional carriers.
I'm sorry I was ambigious in my posting.
Really all I have against JetBlue is that they fly airbus A320s as their whole fleet. I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy not seeing the demonstrator for an entire aircraft fleet plough itself into the trees at the end of a runway, because it wanted to land, and the pilot wanted to do a low-speed flyby. Especially if it happens at something like, say, the Paris Airshow! Now if JetBlue would get real, dump the A320s as soon as their lease is up (oh god, please don't tell me they actually bought them!), and get a real plane like the 737-700 or -800 then I'd have no problem. I'd rather take my chances with a rudder that may or may not turn the right way than a flight control computer that will do things in direct opposition to the pilot. Plus, airbus's can't keep their tails on, that A300 in the Rockaways apparantly lost it's entire tail under nearly normal circumstances. And then there's the little matter of the CF6 and the A300/310 frame, for some reason they don't get along. In everyother airframe, the CF6, and it's derivatives, the TF39 (in the C-5 galaxy), and the LM2500 (in most of the US navy's destroyers, cruisers and frigates), works just fine, but stick it in an A300, and all hell breaks loose.
Plus, I'm a seattle native, and grew up watching green primered 737s, 757s, and 767's fly right over my house. To me Airbus, and their success in this country of all places is nothing short of a direct insult to my birthplace. Nevermind that Boeing moved to chicago (which I see as okay, cause both my parent's are from there, and I lived there for 4 years, least it wasn't LA or texas), they will always have a very strong presense in Seattle, paine field alone is one of the biggest employers in the state, you can't just sweep that away and move it to Witchta.
I picked the two wrong examples for my argument. Southwest and Jetblue are ok in my book (Southwest with it's all 737 fleet is better than JetBlue, but I must remember that Southwest is a texas thing, and must be watched warily). What ticks me off are all these damn "Connector" airlines. All they do is tie up an air traffic control system that is already stretched to it's limits. The conrollers must give the same spacing to all jets, whether Bomb RJ or a 747-400, and all that a bunch of tiny RJ's in the pattern does is lead to holds and stuff for the passengers who are flying a distance that actually requires a plane trip, rather than a NY-PHL hop in some damn puddlejumper. But lots of people have already said that further down the page, so I guess I'll stop now before I just end up reitterating it all.
But you're forgetting (soccer moms)*(men with small tools)=SUV. Considering that SUVs and trucks account for 50% of all yearly vehicle sales, the American public couldn't care less about efficency. Like I said before, TIME is the number one consideration in transportation. Everything else is a distant second. Not a single business passenger would put up with 8 hour domestic journey times if they are traveling several times a month.
And of you really think that people would take a train under the conditions you give in your last sentence, I have a bridge to sell you. People would jump into their SUVs in a heartbeat. Sorry, I wish it wasn't like that, but that's reality.
Instead of banishing one mode of transport in order to get people to use another (which 10 times out of 10 never works), you need to show people that the train is FASTER. This can work on trips of, say, 400 miles or less where a train can legitimately beat a plane.
"Time is MONEY, the entire transportation system since the dawn of man has been made to move people as quickly as possible. There is NO WAY in hell that any civilization will revert to a slower mode when the current mode generally works well".
Unless it's for pleasure, which is why we have plenty of cruise ships swanking the Caribbean Sea.
Because the cruise ship is the destination. How many people took an 8 hour train ride in order to get to the port?
Well, then make a train another destination!
By the way, I took such a train ride from NYC to Montreal to board a Canadian Maritime cruise. I enjoyed the cruise, but didn't exactly appreciate the train getting stuck just north of the border with the snack bar closed and nothing to do.
Train trips are also common with Alaska cruise-tour packages. Please note that the railroad involved (Alaska RR) is NOT part of Amtrak! (1 point goes to McCain and the Amtrak Reform Council here!)
>>> Well, then make a train another destination! <<<
The train is the destination in certain cases. But it is a mistake to lump in narrow gage tourist attractions, and a few very scenic routes with rail travel as a mode of transportation. The current cruise ships are not primarily for transportation like the Cunard trans Atlantic and P&O ocean liners were. The only passenger ships that are still operating in a purely transportation mode are the ferries traveling less than four hours over relatively short distances. This may say something about the future of long distance trains.
Tom
Why should that be a problem? If that's where George's job and his life is, should he not be as close to it as possible. We can't all live in New Jersey, nor do we all want to. And if you live in South Jersey, you ain't getting to NYC in no 45 minutes by train. You of all people should know that.
R142 #2 (who's #1?): Thank you. Yes. I do have a career, such as it is, in Los Angeles, blessed with a 7-minute commute on our Red Line subway.
Nice, I wish I had a seven-minute commute to work, even if not by train.
My handle, R142 #2, doesn't signify that I'm the second R142. I picked that handle four years ago in the hope of getting an "R142 #2" line soon. Of course that didn't happen. Only since this fall has the #2 line become fully R142s (much to the dismay of some folks on Subtalk).
A seven-day vacation, and I want to spend six days plus riding New York subway trains. Do I fly to and from Los Angeles or take the train? Jersey Mike has confused me; can anyone help me solve this problem?
[Jersey Mike has confused me]
He's confused himself.
What do you suggest, taking a bus to England?
"What do you suggest, taking a bus to England?"
I think he's suggesting a train.
If it's a bus, I insist it be a double-decker, and if a train, then it has to be 1972 MkII Tube Stock! :o>
wayne
NO, airplanes are the 'rational' choice for some trips. BUT IMHO eliminating the air option for short stuff--like Sacremento-Reno, Philly-DC, as good extreme examples, while building good HSR is my vote. As long as ALL transport is dependent on subsidy, I favor the rational allocation of these subsidies.
Now, you heard it here first, CSX Chair John Snow will be the point man for Bush attempts to kill Amtrak.
You are correct, Snow is NO friend of passenger rail.
This John Snow (the first time I've heard of the guy, actually) is the least of Amtrak's (or local carriers') problems. Just take one look at the "Rail Improvement Act" that Senator McCain drew up to modify railroading codes in the USC and CFR; that gets through the now-majority-Republican controlled Congress, Amtrak bleeds to death by 2006, and the local rail carriers (METRA, SEPTA, NJT, etc.) will be at the mercy of CSX and the other super-frieght carriers.
I thnik what is being said is this:
we have one Nationwide railway system, one nationwide bus ssytem (Greyhound) and why more than one airline?
There is a place for regional airlines just like we have regional rail services (LIRR, VR, NJT, MN ,etc) and regional bus service (Peter Pan,etc)
[why more than one airline?]
Ever hear of Aeroflot? How about competition lowers prices?
The ignorance here amazes me!
my dear "friend"= you missed my point. the government wont pay to help Amtrak-- one nationwide rail ssytem but there are many airlines each askign for federal help. If it will help let';s have 3 airlines each serving soem core cities and each with soem different cities. Bail out those three and Amtrak.
my dear "friend"= you missed my point. the government wont pay to help Amtrak-- one nationwide rail ssytem but there are many airlines each askign for federal help. If it will help let';s have 3 airlines each serving soem core cities and each with soem different cities. Bail out those three and Amtrak.
Not all airlines have asked for federal help. Far from it. In fact, only three major carriers have applied - America West, United, and US Airways.
United's not going to go out of business just because it filed Chapter 11. It almost surely will continue flying, though probably with some cutbacks. What's really happened in the airline industry is a change in the operating environment underlying the standard business model. Until recently, business travelers were willing to pay top dollar for last-minute, fully refundable tickets, and these high fares kept the airlines in the black. While I'll stop short of calling it a trend, it appears that this assumption is no longer valid, in other words business travelers have become increasingly price-conscious, and like leisure travelers are willing to endure some inconveniences in order to get cheaper fares. This is not good news for "conventional" carriers like United, but they'll manage to adjust (though not without pain).
A perfect example has taken place in Europe. While major carriers have been hemmoraging money on a daily basis, "discount airlines" like Ryanair and EasyJet have been making money hand over fist. It shows that customers are more than willing to partake certain staples for cheap fares.
I think Southwest and Jetblue in the US are also doing well following the same model.
--Mark
IMO, the money nowadays would be in international flights, especially in the holiday season. Regional flights as well, but probably not in the hub and spoke system of previous years. All are contingent on how long it takes to a) get to the airport, and b) how it takes to get on the plane once one is at the airport. In both respects, high speed rail has the advantage over the planes and, at least in Europe, has gutted the airlines in intercity travel in all but the smaller upstart carriers like BMI and Easyjet. If Amtrak could have gotten its act together, the gutting of the major carriers in the regional business would have been the case on both continents.
>>If Amtrak could have
gotten its act together, the gutting of the major carriers in the
regional business would have been the case on both continents.
<<
If Antrak were not hamstrung and starved for resources.
"In both respects, high speed rail has the advantage over the planes and, at least in Europe, has gutted the airlines in intercity travel in all but the smaller upstart carriers like BMI and Easyjet"
Much as I love rail, your analysis of the European situation isn't really accurate. For many years, internal air travel in Europe was run by a "flag carriers" monopoly, with absurdly expensive fares which no-one other than business people whose employers were paying could afford. It was that, not the railways, that limited internal air traffic. Middle-income people, admittedly, went by train; but now they drive. The poor went, and still go, by bus. Vacation flying on package holidays (from cold northern Europe to hot southern Europe mostly) uses charter airlines with low fares. With liberalisation of the market, the new no-frills airlines are tapping the potential for people flying at their own expense on trips other than their summer vacation. That takes traffic from trains, and from cars to some extent. I fly to Edinburgh on EasyJet in preference to taking the train; even though the railway line is Britain's quickest, and even allowing for airport security delays, the door-to-door journey is quicker by air. Where a water crossing is involved (like London-Belfast or London-Amsterdam) the time advantage gets even greater, and the EasyJet fares are still low.
The choice between rail and air is simply a question of time and distance. At equal fares, the quicker overall time wins. With high-speed trains, and no intervening water, rail probably wins up to 500 miles; slower trains, the boundary drops down to maybe 200 miles. At present the Eurostar Channel Tunnel trains from London-Paris barely have any advantage, since the UK portion of the journey is over slow tracks. When the high-speed route from the Channel to London is finished, they will gain a time advantage, but their fares are higher than the low-cost airlines. When it comes to really rail long journeys across the continent of Europe, it is hard even to book them nowadays--most travel agents in the UK don't deal with rail at all. So although I'm a railfan, I can't feel unqualified optimism about the future of long-distance rail. The future certainly isn't with United (or BA, Sabena or Swissair!) but it might be with Southwest ot JetBlue (as with Easyjet or Ryanair).
By the way, BMI isn't an upstart. It's the low-cost operation of British Midland, which has been around a long time as a full-fare airline, and actually belongs to SAS (Scandinavian). Buzz is similarly KLM's low-cost operation. Ryanair (Irish) and EasyJet (British) are genuinely fairly recent new start-ups, but neither could be called small any more.
United may very well disappear. US Airways was threatened with liquidation over the weekend by their primary lender. The unions at the old guard airlines still haven't woken up and smelled the coffee. Heck, United was owned by its employees and they couldn't stop feeding at the trough in time to save the thing.
It goes far beyond just the business vs. leisure traveler issue. Some of the big airlines are now just finally making adjustments to their yield management systems to reflect the changing dynamic you described.
The two biggest issues that I see right now in airline economics are labor costs and over-capacity. The discrepancy in labor costs between the "new guys" and the "old guys" is staggering.
There are also just too many airlines and not enough passengers in the current economy. Over time, I expect most of Uniteds and US Airways' operations to disappear. Someone will probably pick up United's long haul routes and US Air's Shuttle, but those are the only routes that aren't already duplicated many times over.
US Air's hubs in Pittsburgh and Philly will lie quiet -- much like TWA's old hub in St. Louis, which AA continues to shrink by the day.
CG
I also hope that more people will apprecialte the beauty America has to offer by land if they chose Amtrak over air travel. They will miss a lot of beautiful and picturesque scenery, (not to mention the many photo opportunites while traveling on train.) The biggest drawback is it can take as much as 3 whole days just to travel cross-country from NYC to California, but it's worth it. And your chances of surviving a train wreck are much better than a plane crash.
In addition to the beauty of the land, there is the opportunity to get to chat with other passengers in the dining car or the lounge. Then there is the time to unwind. We New Yorkers are always in a rush. It take time to slow down to the pace of the rest of the country. A train ride across the counrty is just what the doctor ordered. I 'Amtrak' it to California and then 'United' it back to New York. There is a big difference between the comfortable bed on the train and the knees in your face of the plane. Then of course there are the real steaks on the train and the plastic sandwiches on the plane!
And your chances of surviving a train wreck are much better than a plane crash.
But you are far, far more likely to be involved in a train wreck.
So while the chances of your death are still slim, you are more likely to die if you go by land, than by air.
I think the new model is that (instead of business flyers going anywhere anytime), the airlines fly between HUBS ONLY -- NY, LA, ORD, ATL, CVG. Everybody books the empty seats, cheaper first. The planes fill up. Then when you get there, you take high-speed rail to your final destination.
That kind of integrated transportation is the best model, in my opinion. I can even see high-speed rail stations in the airports to make the connections easier. To take it a step further, an airline could license its name and logo to a rail carrier, much like they currently license commuter airlines now. In this vision, you could fly to Atlanta on a Delta flight for example, and transfer to a Delta Rail train to take you to, let's say, Savannah, for example.
Mark
"...In this vision, you could fly to Atlanta on a Delta flight for example, and transfer to a Delta Rail train to take you to, let's say, Savannah, for example..."
That may not be very far away if Amtrak goes bye-bye. I'd think Continental Airlines would be all over the idea of running the Acela Express given the easy connection at EWR.
CG
To take it a step further, an airline could license its name and logo to a rail carrier, much like they currently license commuter airlines now. In this vision, you could fly to Atlanta on a Delta flight for example, and transfer to a Delta Rail train to take you to, let's say, Savannah, for example.
Continental Airlines' "flight" from its Newark hub to Allentown is actually a bus.
If the government eventually follows the same model it used to reorganize Penn Central, Jersey Central, Reading et.al. - will the new airline be called CONAir?
...we can only hope that flying will become akin to having a hot poker jabbed into your eye...
You mean it isn't already? I hate flying as it's very uncomfortable, what with the cramped seats and the airsickness and all. But for practical reasons, flying is sometimes necessary, and I'd like to see it better integrated with rail travel.
Mark
>>>The dream of an Airline Free future...<<<
Typical Jerky Mike statement,
Peace,
ANDEE
People in this country need to slow down an enjoy life. It'll lead to a lot less heart attacks. Many airline trips can be eliminated through the use of new information technology and tourists would be forced to have meaningful, experiance based vacations rather than destination / marketing based vacations. Next think you'll tell me is that you have a problem with my plan to eliminate the West Coast.
>>> People in this country need to slow down an enjoy life. <<<
Your idea comes straight from the Pot Pol philosophy for national improvement. :-)
Tom
Now THERE is something I will agree with wholeheartedly!!!
Typical train-brain response to current events.
Just because United Airlines files Chapter 11 bankruptcy does NOT mean they will disappear. It just means that they won't be paying their bills for awhile....until they rearrange their finances.
A Chapter 11 bankrupcty does NOT mean OUT OF BUSINESS.
How many times had Continental Airlines filed, and is still flying to this day??
There was an interesting chart in the Times showing the outcome of all the Airline Bankruptcy filings. Only like 2 of the 12 or so are still in bussiness today, Continental being one of them.
Yeah, another step closer to a few hundred thousand out of work, Pratt shutterng its doors, CT's economy going into the toilet, East Hartford becomming a ghost town, Middletown's taxes jump a few dozen%, Boeing exiting the comercial aircraft industry, and the ripple effect it'll have on the economy.
Hey Mike, do you ever actually think before you spew this crap, or are you so stupid you actually believe the crap you're spewing?
Right now, the United going away could very well smack the economy into a BIG recession. Having just found a job after 1 year of searching, I sure as hell don't want to do THAT again. But the economy tanking again would do that to me and who knows how many else.
Sure bailing out airlines is stupid. Not bailing them out is a Lot stupider. When you're talking about firms that employee 6 digit numbers and form the backbone of a lot of industry (not to mention support a good chunk of our nonexisten manufacturing base), sometimes it's the lesser of two evils.
The airline industry should be massively downsized and those carriers with weaker business models are the logical ones to go and the government should not bail out those in airline related industries or their investors but the airline dependent employees should be assisted during the transition to other work. No one has a secure job any longer and business has to learn that economic security for working families is the basis for consumer demand for their products.
Employment is NEVER an excuse to keep a failing, dying buissness alive. Look what happened in Japan. They inability to face reality and let those zombie firms die just because, god forbid, people might become unemployed, has led them into a recession that has lasted A DECADE. There is surplus capacity in the Airline industry and it needs to be eliminated through liquidation or restructuring. Those assets that are useful to the market will be picked up, while those that are not useful will be let go. Generally, workers need to be diverted from unprofitable, socially detrimental occupations to one that are more useful. Ideally, the government should use any bailout money to invest in such socially benificial projects that would make use of the cast off resources from the Aircraft industry, like giving Boeing money to start making Light Rail Vehicles again.
Boeing? Light Rail Vehicles? Again? Let's ask someone from San Francisco. Is this a good idea? Students, please respond.
Maybe not LRVs, but how about S-ICs, S IIs, and S-IVBs? Boeing built various things for the Saturn V rockets, perhaps if Butch decides to cure the economy though a large public works program, Boeing could recoupe some of their lost Airliner business. How bout another Apollo program, lets go to the moon again, and this time stay there for some time! Much better expenditure of some 50 billion or more than B(D)ouche's completely political war. We've done it once, why can't we do it again? Never mind that the first time we went about it in almost completely the wrong way, making it more of a publicity stunt than all of kruzchev's dogs, rats, and human guinea pigs strapped to voskhod capsules combined. This time Earth Orbit Redevous would be a better bet, assemble it in Low Earth Orbit like a small space station, fly it out to the moon, place it in a good orbit, one to provide good coverage, yet not be really really periodic, then use that as a moon station, so that the intra-planetary shuttle's need not be equipped to land on the moon. Give the shuttles a heat shield, and they can aerobrake on the way back, saving tons of fuel. If, and this is a big IF, we could find ice on the moon, we'd be set, not only does it mean Oxygen, and water, but also, hydrogen, and Hydrogen Peroxide. With oxygen and hydrogen in good supply, we can strike out for the asteroid belt, and it's untold quadrillions of tons of volatiles and metals.
Course all of this will require moving beyond the "el" stage of spaceflight that we are in now, where we strap a satellite, or, worse, a trio of astronauts/cosmonauts, atop some ICBM derived expendible launch vehicle and hope for the best. We need to progress to the "subway" stage of space flight, where we have manned spacecraft that are true spacecraft, never designed to cope with earth's atmosphere. It could be argued that the LEM of the Apollo missions was the first true manned spacecraft, since it never once came in contact with much more than 1 part per billion of the atmosphere, and that would be on Apollo 9, where it cavorted in low earth orbit.
We can save millions, possibly billions by installing an orbital elevator near the equator. Unlike the visions of Arthur C Clarke and others, this needn't be a 23000 mile long, graphite tube made from a carbonacous asteroid. It could also be built non-anchored, revolving around the earth in a 1800 mile orbit. One long string would stretch both inward, or down, toward the earth, and outward, upward, out from the earth. At 1800 miles up, there would be a midway station, where everything is in the freefall that we equate with spaceflight. However, drive one of the elevators up to the top, or down to the bottom,and you will feel gravity begin to push on you pretty quickly. Below midway station, around 1500 and lower, you are traveling slower than orbital velocity for that given altitude. All orbital bodies orbit at a given speed, a circular orbit happens to be one where the speed equals the gravitation pull. Speed decreases as you go further out from the planet, because you are further from the planet and the pull is now lessened.
Becuase of this, as you go down the elevator toward the earth, the earth pulls you more, but your orbital velocity does not change at all, which means that you want to fall to an even lower orbit. Because the lowest end of the elevator will be moving much slower than orbital velocity, payloads can be launched to it without ever achieving orbital velocity for that altitude, call it 250 miles, the very upper edge of the atmosphere. Because they don't need to go so fast, rockets can deliver much greater payloads to the elevator than they could to a similar altitude orbit. Course, should the payload miss the docking collar, it would pretty much be lost, and fall back into the atmosphere like an ICBM.
At the top of the elevator, some 4000 miles up, 2000 miles or so above midway station, the complete opposite would be true, the force would push you outward, away from the earth, since you are doing the orbital velocity of 1800 miles up at 4000 miles up, you want to fly to a higher orbit, but, hopefully, the latches and floor will keep you safely in the station. Also, from here there is an excellent oppertunity to launch stuff like comm satellites, interplanetary probes, and manned moon missions. All you have to do is let go and you have an imidiate push away from the planet, give yourself some thrust, and you're going to the moon, all while having saved a tone of propellant making the initial burn down low to the planet.
Think of it as the catenary or funicular of spaceflight. It may have a high initial cost, but it will pay dividends later with it's propellent savings alone. But, whats best, since the balance point is at the middle of the elevator, rather than being concentrated at the top in a 23000 mile long one. It would only be two 2000 mile long sections, and, conserquently, it could be built with exsisting materials, no need for some complex carbon buckytubes, just some kevlar, steel, composites and so on. If there were four tracks for the elevators (although I think I might go six tracked, 4 for passengers [did I mention it's be the perfect space tourist place?], and 2 for the heavy payloads for stuff like lunar landings. Each of the 3 pairs of tracks would be synchronized which would minimize the strain on the building, and would save massive amounts of power, a falling car being braked at the bottom station would provide power to an upward bound car headed for midway, a round trip would make back most of the energy expended to lift them up when they were brought back. Unless there was nothing up at the top needing to come down, in which case you'd just bite the bullet and eat into the energy budget, and lift it with nuclear or solar power.
Well, I'd say this is the furthest that I've ever run off topic, just wanted to see if it was possible. This IS rapid transit related, since it involves cars traveling on a track a 4000 miles long! Hey, it's no different from the 2nd Ave subway, and probably has the same probability of working out.
To quote the great Clarke himself, "The space elevator will get built 50 years after we stop laughing."
Thanks, hope you at least think you learned something, try the link, it might be better, it's got pictures and stuff.
Actually Boeing was not the major culprit--the design was HOPELESS. Conversely they built a well designed and speced CTA order for L cars still serving Chicagoans.
You are certainly correct; environmentallly detrimental 'work' should be ended, unfortunately most of it is very well "connected" so chance of a snowball in hell.
All of this is peripheral to the issue of whether we need as many airlines as we currently have. Given that the 'majors' have degenerated to the 'airbus' standards of the cheapies, IMHO we should lose the expensive surly carriers. Secondly, the 'need' for travel is changing. Video conferencing will I believe curtail much business travel. As a voting taxpayer, I favor restricting air to transcon/overseas services. I would for instance, build HSR between LA/Bay Area, and once it is up and runing ELIMINATE theshuttle airplanes. In turn, once the NEC is upgraded and service expanded, the same medecine for the east coast shuttles.
I have to agree with JM. This is survival of the fittest on an economic scale. Only the companies that can move on without help are the ones that become successful and create jobs.
as recent US history has shown, Lockheed, Chrysler, domestic content requirements, not to mention the 'save the nonperforming airlines fund', government will intervene to prevent the "free market" from hurting firms with clout. Watch for major worker bashing at United and THEN Federal loans.If United simply dissappeared, the others would be running close to full. Not a chance.
Lockheed and Chrysler were and are big defence firms and I believe that they were in trouble right before Regan's Cold War II. United is not critical to national security (its planes are more often used as weapons against us than the other way round), and so there is no real need to save it. In liquidation United would not just vanish. It still flies a lot of people and the profitable subsets of United would be bought up by other airlines or private backers.
In reference to United Airlines: "...its planes are more often used as weapons against us..."
That is the most offensive remark I've read on this board to date. I think a retraction is in order.
Mike, read what you just posted and tell us why that was a stupid choice of words.
as recent US history has shown, Lockheed, Chrysler, domestic content requirements, not to mention the 'save the nonperforming airlines fund', government will intervene to prevent the "free market" from hurting firms with clout.
IIRC Lockheed and Penn Central both asked for loan guarantees around the same time - Lockheed got it and was saved - PC was declined and they filed for bankruptcy... Government intervenes selectively and not always for railroads...
apparently I was not clear enough. "Clout" IMHO is the operative concept--not actual economics. My view is that United was declined precisely to trigger the bankruptcy in order to gut the union contracts so as to lead the way for the industry.
Note that at least one smaller carrier did get a Fed bailout loan--America West maybe?
My view is that United was declined precisely to trigger the bankruptcy in order to gut the union contracts so as to lead the way for the industry.
I am beginning to agree with you on this - its the only logical explanation so far...
Note that at least one smaller carrier did get a Fed bailout loan--America West maybe?
Correct. So far they seem to be doing okay. Which isn't surprising; when we went to Phoenix in August, we flew America West via Las Vegas, and on the 5+ hour JFK-LAS segment the entire "food" service consisted of a half-ounce bag of peanuts that looked about the size of a sugar packet. HP sure isn't spending much on food, that's for sure.
WOW! YOU GOT PEANUTS!
You should save those, might be able to sell them on e-bay someday as "One of the last bags of airline peanuts ever!" Nowadays all they give you on the major's short flights (i.e not big enough for a meal) is a bag of stale pretzels. Either too many people are allergic to peanuts, or the results of the allergy are too horrible for the airline to risk a lawsuit over having an allergy sufferer in such closed quarters with all those people eating peanuts.
Either too many people are allergic to peanuts, or the results of the allergy are too horrible for the airline to risk a lawsuit over having an allergy sufferer in such closed quarters with all those people eating peanuts.
Peanut allergies are quite prevalent in the population, although only a relatively few people have reactions that could be life-threatening. However, those people who DO have severe reactions to peanuts can react from something as simple as a pack of peanuts being opened ten feet away (peanut dust in the air) or being touched by someone who has touched a peanut (like a flight attendant, transmitting peanut dust by touching). So it's probably a prudent decision by the airlines to eliminate them. I have a cousin who is severely allergic, and when he and his family drop by (about once a year - they live several hours' drive away) we have to scrub the house more thoroughly than we do in preparation for Passover, even to the point of putting away the wooden spoons we usually use when cooking and getting out a set that we keep just for Dave's visits. And when we go to visit them I make a point of not eating peanuts for a couple of days beforehand, just to make sure that there isn't any peanut residue on my hands that could cause Dave a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why don't people BTO food on airlines? I mean when I go Amtrak I generally bring a several course meal plus snacks.
Considering the quality of the food offered by the airlines when they offer it, one might be better off to BTO food.
#3 West End Jeff
Why don't people BTO food on airlines? I mean when I go Amtrak I generally bring a several course meal plus snacks.
Some do. Inside the JetBlue terminal at JFK, for example, there's a shop selling packaged "meals to go" for people catching flights. I've seen similar outfits in other airports too. Of course, one's choice of food to bring on an airplane is somewhat limited by space considerations, and odiferous items should be avoided out of respect to other passengers.
United won't disappear -- it's too big to be swallowed a la TWA and American Airlines without some major antitrust concerns, even under the Bush administration -- but the current airline system does have to be changed because of the expansion of a low-fare carrier like Southwest, which basically is Greyhound with a Boeing fueslage and Pratt and Whitney engines.
When the contract system involving the majors -- United, American, Delta, Northwest, US Air -- were established, flying was more of a luxury and the airline fare structure was controlled prior to deregulation under the Carter Administration. Over the past 25 years, air travel has become more routine as prices have gone down and people like Herb Kelleher at Southwest (who arrived in Dallas by way of Brooklyn) have realized that a lot of people just want to fly for the lowest fare possible and have undercut the majors' customer base. At the same time, luxury airlines like Virgin have set up shop on the routes where high income fliers are common and have taken some of the majors' first class passenger base. That left the business class group, and with the current economy, even they are opting more for the lower-cost airlines, which was the final nail in the coffin for United.
When it restructures, the airline is going to have to decide not only what it's routes are going to be, but who it wants to serve -- high-end or low-end. Going the low-fare route and challenging Southwest at its own game (while undercutting American, Delta and the rest) is what I bet they try to do, but doing that will require getting some costs down close to Southwest's level. Doing that on the equipment side will be hard, since all of Southwest's jets are the same, which cuts down on parts and maintenance costs, so they'll have to do a lot of changing up on their salary structures, as will American, Delta and the others down the line.
I would argue about the Virgin luxury statement.
Simon
Swindon UK
Granted, it's not a luxury class line like something similar to Kirk Kirkorian's MGM Air (designed mainly to get bettors to his casinos in Nevada), but it's more of a high-end carrier than Southwest, and its rates are more uniform than United's which are all over the place, like all the old-time airlines. That's what's going to have to change for the company to get profitable again.
>>> When it restructures, the airline is going to have to decide not only what it's routes are going to be, but who it wants to serve -- high-end or low-end. <<<
Like any company reorganizing in Chapter 11, United will try to shed its unprofitable portions of its business, reducing the number of flights and routes with a matching reduction of personnel and equipment, and most importantly, renegotiation of labor contracts. It cannot compete with the low end carriers if its pay scales remain significantly higher than theirs.
Tom
How convenient.
And Canada has just ratified the Kyoto Accord. Maybe this will mean more rail extensions for Canadian cities to get those damned cars off the road and give Air Canada a run for its money with Via rail?
Oh my.
FYI, WBAI (99.5 FM) in NYC will have Roger Toussaint as a guest on the "Building Bridges" program tonight from 7pm to 8pm.
WBAI? It figures. No one else wants him.
Too bad Roger won't be interviewed on TV. He has two very interesting traits to watch.
When you see him blinking his eyes rapidly - he's likely under stress.
When you see him moving hid lips - he's likely not telling the truth.
Can't see that on the radio.
Too bad Roger won't be interviewed on TV. He has two very interesting traits to watch.
When you see him blinking his eyes rapidly - he's likely under stress.
When you see him moving his lips - he's likely not telling the truth.
Can't see that on the radio.
Ok I put some more photos up from Sundays trip. I will put up the group photos soon. I took so many of them that I have to pick out which ones are the best for putting up online.
My gallery:
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
TAKE A LOOK AND SIGN MY GUESTBOOK!!
:)
Nice photos! More, more!
Take Pride,
Brian
Finally, Bogen is GONE!!!! Xaviar Williams won the election for Union President. Now the trainmen for NJT can get some real representation (even if it's a little, it's still more than what Bogen gave them).
Does anyone recall/know a bit about when (I believe sometime in the early 90's) there was a crew rebuilding the sidewalk on the corner of 91st and bway, and whle breaking up the old concrete they unexpectedly reopened a set of stairs down into the station? It of course was soon reclosed, but if i recall right there was some dispute where the city said it was the responsiblity of the landlord of whatever building is on that corner, while they obviously felt it was something the mta needed cover...
I wonder if it's this stairway......
I took that in 1996 on a Transit Museum Tour.
I guess the responsibility for repairs goes to whoever ordered the sidewalk work to be done.
Damn, they really tagged it up with graffiti over the years. It looks like it is the responsibility of the owner of that area of sidewalk. How come they don't do tours of abandoned stations anymore[I suspect 9/11 was a factor].
The tours were discontinued because too many people were getting injured on some of the excess equipment that was left to rot on the platforms. And of course it was Ranting Rudy that stopped the tours of the City Hall station.
This decision was made years before 9/11/01 ever happened.
Ranting Rudy.
Isn't he the person who didn't know he married a 2nd cousin?
yes, regina peruggi (sp?). that was his first marriage, he's now on his third.
how the regina thing never came up in the dirty world of politics is beyond me. let's just say rudy isn't a poster child for how to live one's love life...
I know that Giuliani stopped the City Hall tours :-\. Anyway, thanks, Allan.
He also stopped the proposal to reopen City Hall as a Transit Museum annex, citing security.
Okay, but won't more people (namly "unauthorized painters") get hurt trying to get there illegally?
Okay, but won't more people (namly "unauthorized painters") get hurt trying to get there illegally
The "painters" are going to go there whether tours are given or not. It's not like they would wait to go there on a tour and bring all of the spray-paint with them while they are there. And anyone else that would venture there illegally are also going to go there whether the tours are given or not. Those people probably go just for the thrill of it. A Transit Museum tour would probably not be their idea of a thrill, especially if they had the balls to go there illegally.
i wish i knew. that's the southbound side, right?
i recall reading something about the sidewalk thing in an article about the station and the tours they used to give, and wouldn't mind trackind down a more exact date on when the little sidewalk incident happened.
i wish i knew. that's the southbound side, right?
Yeah, that is the southbound side. That station is very baddly tagged. The below image is the only mosaic on the southbound side, even somewhat uncovered. That was in 1996, it may be totally covered now. Even the little plaques are covered in spray paint. When I was at 18th Street (during the same tour) there was even a ladder against the wall with fresh grafitti. These guys dragged ladders through the tunnel to do their "work"!
man yesterday was sooooo crazy and exciting riding the Redbirds on the BMT and IND lines. just wondering if anyone posted the subtalk group photo yet?
If the unthinkable happens, will the commuter railroads contineu to make their normal stops within NYC (such as Fordham, 125th, Hunter's Point) or will they run non-stop from jamaica or the city lien to their NYC Termianl (Grand Central, Flatbush ro Penn).
I need to know because i might need them to get home if i get stranded. I could take the commuter line to Grand Central*(and walk to Penn) or to Penn.
Well right now i can speak for Metro North and say we will be running. I am expected to show up for work so u can count on my T&E counterparts running their trains. (Train and Engine). As for LIRR, i hope they run, cause they are my only means of transportation to and from GCT. im going to have to walk from NY penn to Grand Central
Today's Post mentioned that the LIRR was also out in 1980. I thought I remembered that it was running, but not stopping anywhere in NYC except Penn Station and Jamaica. Or was that some previous strike?
Bob, during the last transit strike IIRC LIRR were not making stops in Queens and Brooklyn except their terminal stations (obviously).
I believe that was the announced contingency plan for the last strike threat(s).
CG
I do remember having to be on a specific line (queue) for the PM rush for each branch of the LIRR. For example, Main Line/Ronkonkoma/Oyster Bay passengers would have to enter Penn Station at the 7th Ave./32nd St entrance; Babylon/Long Beach passengers would have to enter at 8th Ave./33rd St., etc. But I just can't remember if that was for the 1980 strike or sometime earlier.
I started working in Manhattan in 1970. Was there a previous transit strike in the 1970's?
I do remember having to be on a specific line (queue) for the PM rush for each branch of the LIRR. For example, Main Line/Ronkonkoma/Oyster Bay passengers would have to enter Penn Station at the 7th Ave./32nd St entrance; Babylon/Long Beach passengers would have to enter at 8th Ave./33rd St., etc. But I just can't remember if that was for the 1980 strike or sometime earlier.
They do that for snow storms and things. All trains run local just as quickly as they can get them in and out.
Elias
Both Metro-North and LIRR should be running, because they will still have contract after Sunday since they are a different union. However, you never know if they will take part in a sympathy strike. -Nick
Hi Folks,
Just to let everyone know, version 3.4 of my Track Map book is now shipping. If you already have version 3.3, this is more a minor update and re-printing, but if you have version 3.2 or earlier, it contains very major updates that are quite worthwhile (most were in place in September of this year) as well as complete roster/yard assignments and Canarsie alignment as of Nov. 25th.
I would also like to take this opportunity to wish everyone on SubTalk a very Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah or whichever holiday traditions you hold near and dear, and I wish everyone a prosperous and happy 2003!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
Is there any MTA plan afoot to rebuild the M-1 LIRR cars, the way the NYCT subway cars were rebuilt in the '80s?
AFAIK only the ones they plan to save (a few hundred at most), and this most likely will include the 1986 M-3s as well. Look for the surviving M-1/M-3 to be renumbered as well, the way they did the MP-54s in their later years.
wayne
The official MTA page says "Current investments include the purchase of new M-7 electric train cars; the overhauling of existing M-3 and some M-1 cars; ", so it looks like at least some M-1's will be around for a while.
No. Why would you want to rebuild a 60's vintage railcar with cracked trucks, antique propulsion systems, and worn bodies?
What the LIRR should have done was 10 years ago order M-1 bodied, AC traction replacements and moved the M-1s into diesel service.
Or shorten by 10 ft, change seats and install bigger doors and 2 more doors and you have a R-46.
Rebuild them all in NY state. Keep the $ in NY creating jobs in NY.
Keep the $ from flowing out of the country.
Send as many as necessary to replace the R/44s on Staten Island!
Rebuild those R/44s and merge them in with the R/44s in service on the "A". Rebuild those R/44s. Save a buck , save a job, save a nation! Gain the cars to increase service or length on the "G" or "V".
And modify the R/110B to run with the R/143s. If we can invade Iraq, we can modify 9 friggin cars to be compatible with the new toys the MTA has to plat with!
avid
Being this my last post for a while I would like to make this prediction
Until Friday the MTA is going to talk all big, but at the Zero hour they're going to fold like superman on laundry day and come severely close to the Union's demand. Most likely theyre's not going to be a strike.
Since everyone is doing it, here's my $.02.
There is a rally scheduled for next Monday at City Hall Park at 5:00pm, preceded by a march over the Brooklyn Bridge. The rally is endorsed by TWU Local 100; Central Labor Council; AFSCME DC1707 & DC37, and DC37 Locals 1930, 1549, 983,420,375; UFT; PSC; CWA District 1. If no settlement has been reached by 12:01 AM Tuesday 12/17, a strike will be called for Tuesday. After all, if the strike occurs before the rally, no one could get there.
(If no settlement has been reached by 12:01 AM Tuesday 12/17, a strike will be called for Tuesday.)
Ah, but that's the question, can there be a settlement? Did give em' much when the had the money, can't give 'em anything now that your broke and they're mad as hell. I put the odds at one in three. Charles G puts the odds at 1 in 50.
I will say this. As I posted earlier, 90 percent of the economic damage will happen in the first week. So after December 20th, there won't be much reason for the city/state to settle until January 6th. I'm kind of looking forward to a three week vacation over the holidays, even if some of it is unpaid. I'd bet a lot of people are. As I said, though, the odds are only one in three, so I won't get my hopes up.
Back in 1980 Transit workers lost 1 days's pay a week after they came back to work. I don't mind taking some time off. But I'll have to be working OT to keep up with my bills.
The word "strike" shouldn't be used here. Illegal work stoppage is the more appropriate terminology.
There won't be one anyway. Lots of hyperbole & grandstanding going on today. But in the end, both sides will see reality. Last second negotiations will avert a strike. Everyone will claim victory, the TWU will get more than they have now, nothing close to what they're demanding and everything will return to normal. An illegal work stoppage would be suicidal for both sides. The economic impact on the city during the holiday shopping season would be dramatic. Public backlash and financial penalties incurred by breaking the Taylor law would be suicdal for the TWU.
It will be suicidal for the workers as well.
I did some quick math. After 6 days the fine for an individual worker would be $1,575,000 ($25,000 a day, doubling [and accumulating] each day).
Monday $25,000 Accumulated $ 25,000
Tuesday $50,000 $ 75,000
Wednesday $100,000 $ 175,000
Thursday $200,000 $ 375,000
Friday $400,000 $ 775,000
Saturday $800,000 $1,575,000
Let's not even think about the 7th day.
Taylor Law fines are 'two for one'. If I'm out for six days, I lose twelve days of pay. Those ridciulous numbers you are quoting come from Rudy's injunction in 1999, which forbade Transit workers from saying the word "strike." You know how hard it was to talk about bowling or baseball?
I couldn't even read the back of my matchbook
That is the Taylor law but Rudy went further when he got the injuction.
The injuction not only covered talking about a strike but actually going on strike. You can have more than one legal action covering this situation.
Now all that remians is to see if Mikey is going to do the same thing.
BTW - if there is a strike - Roger won't be jailed - he will skip town (like the coward he is).
What RUDY did was take advantage of the LANGUAGE of the Taylor law in that it is unlwaful to "cause, instigate, encourage, or condone a strike." ... it was *ALWAYS* there but nobody expected anybody to have the STONES to "pull it."
THAT'S why we gave up our government AND our CONSITUTION to the bedwetter geeks who we used to beat up now known as "republicans." Now they don't HAVE to wet the bed anymore, anything, or anybody THEY don't like ... is going to security prison.
Whoops, that was a prohibited thought, gotta bang myself in. And *YOU* for READING this. You are a DISLOYAL American, and Komrade Selkirk's gonna drop DIME on your butt. But hey, I feel SAFE now, sheets are dry. Happy times.
and miss being labors lamb sacrifice are you nuts.
He wants to be Quillified
There's no way that they are going to fine the workers $25,000 doubling every day. Its absurd that Giuliani even come up with that 3 years ago but it averted a strike. I think its a move to prevent it, which is a good strategy but if they go on & do this, then I don't know what to say. NO worker is gonna be fined millons of dollars if they do organize a work stoppage.
If there is a strike, Transit's budget gap will disappear just from the fines (34,000 employees x $25,000 each = $850,000,000 on Day 1 alone)!!!
If the State were to implement $25,000 a day strikes (which would then double every day), then it could potentially turn a 10 day strike into a 30 day strike.
After all, if 2 days worth of fines were enough to bankrupt you, then you'd just keep on going until all of the fines (with the exception of the 2 days pay fine) were waived. I mean, what's the difference between a $400,000 and a $5,000,000 fine when you only make $50,000 a year?
It seems a $500 a day fine would be more of a deterrent -- if they were serious about fining individual workers. You're right. The $25K per day is laughable.
CG
Come on they aren't really going to fine a worker $25,000 whose making a average of $50,000 that's insane, I strongly believe that the proposed fines is a measure to keep the workers from striking. Fining the union for each day they strike would "make sense" but fining the workers NO WAY! There's a CHANCE but I am not counting on that should this strike occur. $850,000,000 that's a large amount of money & I agree it would close the transit gap but no, don't count on it.
I would put nothing past that dirty dog, paTURKEY.
That's my prediction as well; that they are going to settle at the last hours of negotiations & the union 'defeats' them. HOWEVER if the unevitable strike happens and the MTA ACTUALLY refuses to bow down, it will just be chaos and Roger Touissant is ready for it, look at when the Queens bus lines went on strike for 7 weeks, you think he won't do it with the MTA think again.
private bus contracts are not under taylor law the transit workers are.
Would a "cooling off period" help here ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It can go both ways.
Either it can create some solid ground, or it can piss off the TWU even more.
Ok guys, yes another installment of the worst... So what cars NOW do yuo think have the worst A/C units[meaning they frequently don't work, malfunction or other reasons for not wroking].
I say the R44 has the worst A/C units b/c they hardly work in the warmer months, the car gets VERY musty and when it is crowded, oh boy lets not go there.
The best A/C equipped subway car out there I say is the R40 slants they are very frigid [feels like its 65-70 degrees] in the summer months and its almost a guarantee to get working A/C [THE Q express has them :-)]. The R40M and the R42 has good A/C as well, Sumitomo installed good air conditioning units during the GOH (I know the R40m's and some R42's were rebuilt by CI). It seems like these acr classes got better A/C units than the rest of the cars that went through the GOH.
Older, retired rolling stock[R9, R10, R12 etc.] doesn't count since they didn't have any A/C.
Older, retired rolling stock[R9, R10, R12 etc.] doesn't count since they didn't have any A/C
Is that why they always seemed so warm?
R40slant were rebuilt by Sumitomo
R40M-Sumitomo
R42-MKCO/Coney Island
Is it really the A/C or the thermostat setting giving some cars a bad name ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It may be the thermostat itself.
The R62s and Redbirds on the 4 seemed to have a lot of A/C units that were crapping out this summer. I found at least one car in every R62 train I rode with dead A/C and even got a Redbird train on the 4 with four, count 'em four, cars with dead A/C. The Slants' A/C units were pretty good this summer. I didn't ride the A muich this past summer and when I did, the A/C seemed to be fine, but I will take your word for it about the R44s.
I don't think any car type made it through the summer with no failures. I found that the R-62A's on the 1 and 3 were invariably frigid when the a/c worked. Most surprising were the half-hot R-142's (they really were quite muggy at the hot end).
R40 Slant/R40m, too bad their going to dissappear from the (L)/(M) line.
Yes, the Slants are gone, but there are still 70-odd R40M in Eastern Division. They may be gone too once the last of the R143 King Vultures arrive.
wayne
Right now, the best are the R40/R40M, which are ice cold but can get drippy from the "A" ends on humid days, AND the R32 Phase I, from Pitkin Yard, all equipped with Stone Safety AC units, which live up to their name as being STONE COLD.
Worst? Any Redbird still running (they've given up on 'em), and the R44 can be dreadful if not fully charged or if the thermostat's bad.
Also the NYCT-overhauled R42 (except for #4918), not quite up to snuff. Perennial rolling oven #4908-4909 is still just that.
wayne
At least the heat doesn't come on when it's not needed.:)
I knew the NYCT rebuilt R42's had worse A/C than the MK rebuilds :-\ and yes the R32's can really get frigid in he summer months at full blast.
The 40s and 32s have pretty good A/C units. From my experiences, the 44 and 46 have some of the worst A/C. It blows around hot air in the summer.
It has been reported on CH7 news the LIRR will support the threatend strike.Meaning they will not make any stops other than terminals in Brooklyn and Queens.Its a start But i would also like to see MNRR grow some testicles ans support us as well.It would be nice if those upstate republicans also realized what a mess this could be.
I don't thinkm it's a question of LIRR or MNRR "supporting" the subway strike. Both railroads are part of MTA -- there is no way they will support a strike against another part of MTA. The reason LIRR will not make stops in Queens is because of the potential for horrendous overcrowding at the platforms and lack of capacity for special shuttle trains. The same policy occurred the last strike in 1980. MNRR, however, has enough track capacity to run shuttle trains in the Bronx, as it did in 1980.
It has been reported on CH7 news the LIRR will support the threatend strike.Meaning they will not make any stops other than terminals in Brooklyn and Queens.Its a start But i would also like to see MNRR grow some testicles ans support us as well.It would be nice if those upstate republicans also realized what a mess this could be.
I added new photos to the following sections in the RailfanWindow.com gallery:
Stations -> Sutter (L)
Stations -> Atlantic (L)
Stations -> Bway Jct (L)
Cars -> R-40M
Cars -> R-42
Cars -> R-68
Cars -> R-143
Cars -> Work Cars/Locomotives
Take Pride,
Brian
That's right folks this contract is so important that the TA waited 2 months to answer the union's proposal and now negotiations will start on WED. Hurry hurry hurry
While riding in R62A #2109 on the Main St-bound 7 express at around 4:25 or so, I peered into the unused T/O cab. The train was going between 30-35 mph. If I am not mistaken, between Junction Blvd and 90 St/Corona Plaza, the tracks make a slight left-handed turn. As the train went through this turn, the speedometer reading went past 40, and kept increasing until it maxed out at 81 mph(?!?!) before it slowed down at the Junction Blvd station.
The train couldn't have possibly gone 81 mph for that split second, could it?
I'll bet it was going 40 just standing still.
According to the speedometer, I've done 73 mph in the station with the doors open while passengers got on & off (they did it really fast).
Slow poke. I've done 99 in that same situation. But then again, I've done 0 all the way through the 60 St Tube Manhattan bound, too.
There's NO way it went 81mph, it must of stayed around 40-45mph unless it got souped up [which of course did not]. Must of been a malfunction of the speedometer, happens quite a bit particularly on R62A's.
It could have been a M series car that you might have mistaken for a R-44/46, but this is IRT track right!? And we don't have 85 ft cars, yet.
Yes, this was on IRT track.
To reiterate, I was on R62A #2109. There had to have been some inaccuracy in the speedometer, because I don't see how a train's speed increases by 40-50 mph as it goes through a slight turn in the tracks.
I have seen a R-38 do 5 mph while loading at T/O spot. Once saw on 6 a R-62 doing 99 mph at astor place (non-operating car), and seen it also on the R-38 at far rockaway doing 99.
The speedometers were designed to be accurate within 2 MPH. On some cars with inductive sensors (like the R-46 or R-68) accuracy can be affected by wheel wear. Yet the maximum wheel wear should affect the accuracy is under 3 MPH. On the more common Doplar units, accuracy is not affected by wheel wear. However, I've seen some where the transsponder was not properly aimed and it would read fluorescent or sodium lamps beneath the car. This might account for what you saw.
Could you elaborate on that, please? i know you don't mean the street lights were moving that fast, but...
Fluorescent and sodium lamps flash at the line frequency of the power source. (60 HZ) Incadescent lamps do not flash - they glow. I've seen cars over an inspection pit where a misadjusted doplar sensor will read the pit lighs as thought he car were moving. Incidently, the Doplar sensor is calibrated by holding a tuning fork in front of it.
It's deja vu all over again.... I think this is the third time this has come up. Train Dude is correct (though it's spelled Doppler after the discoverer of the phenomenon -- see below).
Here's the definition of Doppler frequency shift from the Glossary of Meteorology - Second Edition, published by the American Meteorological Society, 2000, Todd Glickman, Managing Editor:
Doppler frequency shift—(Also called Doppler effect.) In general, the change in
frequency of a signal reaching a receiver when the receiver and the
transmitting source are in motion relative to one another.
This phenomenon was first noted for sound waves by the Austrian
physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803–53) in 1842. In meteorology, this
effect is successfully employed with remote sensors, such as Doppler
radars and Doppler lidars, in which the receiver (collocated with the
transmitter) is fixed and only the scatterers (upon which transmitted power
impinges and is reradiated) are moving. The frequency shift, f, induced by
a scatterer having a radial component of motion vr relative to the radar
may be expressed as
f=-2(v/lambda)
where lambda is the wavelength of the transmitter, f is positive for motion toward
the radar, and, by the usual convention, v is positive for motion away from
the radar.
the Glossary of Meteorology - Second Edition, published by the American Meteorological Society, 2000, Todd Glickman, Managing Editor
I say, Mr. Glickman, you certainly do get around! You wear quite a few hats, it seems!
--Mark
That's a prior hat. I did that from 1995-2000 when I was Assistant Executive Director of the American Meteorological Society. That hat has since blown off in the wind :-)
The train speedometer read 81mph on the set of tracks between 82 St and 90 St. NOT between 90 St and Junction Blvd.
If the speedometers in trains are anything like the ones in buses that I drive, I wouldn't believe them for a minute.
I used a wide angle lens for these two photos, so for those of you on the edges of the pic blame the lens not the photographer. Next time we get an R-30 and run that.
and the other
And it works in the preview feature.
The photos will be up only for a few days. So in case anyone is concerned they will come down shrotly.
Anthony
Soooooo, where's Darius?
Where is IRT Girl??
Oh wait, she hasn't found this board yet...
?
Eh?
Who or what?
-Stef
..........From The Sunday Trip
Yes. I was feeling a little camera shy, so I opted not to pose for pix. There were a whole lot of SubTalkers to be found!!!
-Stef
What year this board was built?
The WebBBS version of the board has been around since February of 1998; I had been lurking occasionally at its predecessor since the previous fall, and started posting later in 1998.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris...that's not what Jeff H. was alluding to...he was doing a 'take' on a form of questioning that the 'IRT Girl' is notorious for...(apparently you have yet to meet her).
(blush) Are you saying she'd be more fun than BINGBONG? :)
Not on your life! :)
Kewl ... I never believed that "correct a dieseldyke and you'll get 4000 HP" qwap anyway. I take it "IRTgal" is one of those folks that requires application of the golden rail slipper. :)
Maybe I have... was she at Branford with the Transit Museum Tour From Hell this fall?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh-huh. I'm pretty sure you have met her,
Peace,
ANDEE
Uh, as a matter of fact she was...but I don't think she interacted much with anyone that day....at least she didn't have your ear at any point (you're so lucky for that! :)
Well, somebody got my ear at one point... fortunately it was just as we were all getting off 629 (Joe Roth motorman, yours truly conductor) and Joe was going to lead them on the grand tour.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lou...I heard Dennis Rega was there in her absence...:)
I heard that IRT girl is Riga in drag. *-)
Peace,
ANDEE
But can she VOGUE? :)
Yes, but not like me.
Peace,
ANDEE
St-eeerike a Pose, Andrew!!
Show dem' how tis done, mang..
thanks for the photos
That's me . . . front left with the blue denim jacket, white collar, and glasses, holding on to a strap, front right in picture 2.
Sorry -- front RIGHT with the denim blue jacket . . .
Would have worked out better in a 10ft wide car !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just be glad I brought over my wide angle lens :)
I would have used my fisheye lens.:)
Fish-eye lens, redbirds. I get it. :)
Moo.
That's one way to interpret it.:)
Great shots Tony. Many thanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You Tony for posting those pictures. It was a treat to put names to faces on the trip. I'm in the second picture with the orange reflective vest towards the back.
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
So nobody's going to tell us who's who? (except for a few posters who volunteered the info)
Yea...I wonder who the Conductor was?!?!?! lol
-Mark
You were! You were! All hail the almighty C/R! I'm not worthy of being in his presence.
You did quite well, as did Tony and Bill. I wonder what Bill has up his sleeve next?
-Stef
He's going to resurrect a few R-10s.:)
I think Bill's next feat will be MY Brooklyn-loop idea.....Stef email me and I'll give you the details....
I'm in the first photo - right side near the back standing on the seats. #7 line cap, silver wire-rim glasses and a mostly gray beard.
I'm in the first photo, the chinese guy with glasses.
Oops, forgot to mention, I'm in the third row from the front, middle guy.
I'm the guy wearing the bright red cap. BTW: I was selling candy on behalf of one of my sons. It was a spur of the moment thing that I decided to do it. Wish I had more to sell, I sold 32 bars by the time we left Rock Park. For those of you who were lucky enough to procure the snack before I sold them all, we both thank you!
Top pic: I see HartBus Al and Larry RedbirdR33 in the back, with a certain C/R next to Bill "Newkirk" in center.
Bottom pic: looks like Dan 'the video man' hugging the pole, with Dave P. behind him. Mark Feinman (another video maven) toward the center. Larry's in there again -- this time near the rollsign...and of course the C/R is once again present in the center b.g.
Everybody else has to identify themselves...
Actually, after having looked at things a second time...I think I've spied Jeff H. hanging from a strap handle waaaay in the back off to the left in the top shot.
Ouch! I'm correcting myself as that is SilverFox and NOT Dave Pirmann in bottom photo....sorry about that gentlemen!
Correct. And I'm directly to his left.
Right...sorry I left you outta the mix....just NOW also noticed that Sid from New Jersey is right behind Mark W. in that same shot...
Sorry guys I'm late in responding. In the top photo, I'm 2nd from the front, just behind and to the right of Marc the C/R. In the 2nd photo, I'm in the back left side, looking over and not facing the camera when the pic. was taken. Good shots Tony.
Sorry for the long delay in responding - it's been a hectic week and I haven't gotten anywhere near the computer 'til now. Nice shots Anthony!
That's me to the left of Mark and in front of Bill Newkirk in the first photo wearing the black jacket w/ green sleeves and yellow circle logo.
In the 2nd photo I'm all the way to the right standing on the seat with the blue jeans and black jacket.
Great trip!
Chris C. Shaffer
I am in the top picture Top Center, under the center lights with hair covering half of my face, I was also the only person on the trip to be waring shorts, but that is not visible in the photo
You were one of the few I didn't get to meet. I was the conductor. Hope you enjoyed the trip!
Don't recall seeing anything written about this on the board...A few minutes ago on Fox (after Seinfeld) the MTA aired a commercial showing all the circle route logos, saying "Seventeen more reasons to love New York." (With some corny fairy tale music at the end) I didn't get a good look at the end of the commercial, but I think I saw the commercial was endorsed by the TWU. Nothing like trying to get last minute support from the public.
That "corny fairy tale" music is the I Love NY music. Yes, it's corny. By the way, the Q's circle is the wrong color. The Q hasn't been running on 6th Avenue for almost a year and a half now.
There is nothing wrong with advertizing, all businesses do it. But I do think the MTA ad campaigns are unneeded. Unlike most companies, the MTA can get virtually all the free media it wants.
And if it did feel the need to advertize, the right way to do it is with a billboard in locations where the subway or rail ROW crosses a highway or major road. Virtually every billboard out there is illegal (zoning), since advertizing signs away from your place of business are only permitted in certain districts and not permitted near highways. But the MTA's would be legal, because you are allowed to have a business sign at your place of business!
Its a promo to urge customers to shop in Downtown Manhattan. All the lines shown goes to Canal St or below. Ive seen the ads on the sides of buses as well.
Metro North and the Long Island Railroad should be operating to serve same stops as ussual with no reduction in service.
The Railroads can not strike or support Job Actions as they are under federal control (railway Labor Act) a law the transit workers are not under. I would not bett on a long strike anyway since after courts set up penalties for striking workers under Taylor law, they would all be broke in a week.
last time every worker on strike would be fined 3 days pay for every day on strike, and union would be fined a 5 digit fine per day.
this is an illigal strike and they may not get much support.
just my 0.02 worth
they have my support. polls say it's 50/50.
the 'increased productivity for increased pay' thing is just disgusting. if crews spent just about all their time on trains operating, how the F are they suppose to be 'more productive'? meanwhile, mgmt around the office probably works 20% of their day, if that much.
i just hope that the workers can get the word out - tell some good war strories in the press re: what shit they put up with each and every day. i'm sure if people knew better what it they go through, they'd get a lot more sympathy. and considering how far the system has come in recent years, with overall very good service, they deserve at least their 3 or 4% a year...
[Metro North and the Long Island Railroad should be operating to serve same stops as ussual with no reduction in service.]
During the 1999 threats, LIRR announced that it would BYPASS all Queens stations other than Jamaica. (The explanation was something about not being able to handle the increased loads.)
Wouldn't it be more equitable to have some trains bypass Queens stations and others start at the Queens-Nassau line and only make stops in the city? In other words, reduce service slightly from the suburbs so the lucky city residents who can walk to LIRR stations at least get some degree of service?
(Doesn't the city subsidize the operation of Penn Station? Whatever little justification exists for that subsidy will vanish when the station's use is restricted to those living outside the city.)
The LIRR claims it's a safety issue -- they wouldn't be able to safely handle all of the extra passengers that would be generated by stopping in the city.
The claim probably holds up for some areas of Queens, but not others. Could LIRR Port Washington Branch trains handle the additional customers who ride the express busses into Manhattan from NE Queens - probably not, especially since they can't increase the number of trains going through the Penn tunnels. Could they run a few extra trains from Rosedale to Jamaica to pick up passengers from SE Queens going to Jamaica - probably.
Some other issues come to mind, though. Why would any business require it's regular customers to endure hardship (fewer trains or overcrowded conditions) so that it can provide special service to people who aren't - and will not become - customers.
I suspect the strikers would support this as well. It would be a disincentive for the MTA to settle if they were now getting $4+ from a Queens rider rather than $1.50.
The burden falls more unfairly on regular LIRR riders from within the city limits. To that extent, I'd suggest running a regular schedule and only allowing monthly and (perhaps) weekly ticket holders to access station platforms in Queens and Brooklyn during the AM rush. I don't have a good suggestion for how to make the same restriction for the PM rush from Penn or Flatbush.
CG
The LIRR claims it's a safety issue -- they wouldn't be able to safely handle all of the extra passengers that would be generated by stopping in the city ... Some other issues come to mind, though. Why would any business require it's regular customers to endure hardship (fewer trains or overcrowded conditions) so that it can provide special service to people who aren't - and will not become - customers.
Ordinary businesses indeed wouldn't require something like that. The LIRR is not, however, an ordinary business - it's a taxpayer-subsidized public entity providing essential transportation services. As such, it can and sometimes should do things that a regular business wouldn't, such as inconveniencing regular customers.
As someone who takes the LIRR from Suffolk County, I'd certainly be inconvenienced if there were extra "strike stops" in Queens. Afternoon trains in particular would be a nightmare. Even so, I'd be willing to accept this hardship given the special circumstances.
But would the UTW (that is their acronym, right)? How happy would they be if the effectiveness of their strike was decreased and the MTA actually got twice as much revenue for each person that switched to the LIRR while the strike lasted?
I suspect that the MTA won't be getting much additional revenue if Queens residents take the LIRR for the duration of the strike. Chances are, the trains will be so crowded that the conductors won't be able to check tickets.
>>>... UTW (that is their acronym, right)?<<<
No, TWU.
Peace,
ANDEE
Duh! Make that double Duh! I must have seen UTW somewhere else today.
Thanks.
CG
I agree with your last paragraph which states that only weekly and monthly ticket holders would be accommodated on LIRR trains in the event of a NYC Transit strike. However, I wonder how this plan could be implemanted?
A new version of "Throw Momma From The Train"
It wouldn't be that difficult to do on westbound trains (or on eastbound trains at stations other than Penn and Flatbush). The local stations, particularly in Queens and Brooklyn, only have limited entry to the platforms and everyone would be subject to the same ticket inspection. All you'd have to do is position a ticket collecter to inspect the ticket of each person before they go to the platform.
The LIRR claims it's a safety issue -- they wouldn't be able to safely handle all of the extra passengers that would be generated by stopping in the city.
That's why I suggested reducing suburban service slightly and running some city-only locals. The suburban trains wouldn't be much more crowded than usual.
Some other issues come to mind, though. Why would any business require it's regular customers to endure hardship (fewer trains or overcrowded conditions) so that it can provide special service to people who aren't - and will not become - customers.
This isn't a business; it's a state-subsidized public service. Regular passengers already get astounding discounts in the form of monthly tickets -- they have no additional right to exclusive access to the service.
Well, whether they did it for fairness, revenue or just because they were tired of being torn to shreds here on SubTalk, the LIRR has announced that they will provide a strike schedule in that is considerably better to city residents than what they had proposed a few years back.
"Well, whether they did it for fairness, revenue or just because they were tired of being torn to shreds here on SubTalk, the LIRR has announced that they will provide a strike schedule in that is considerably better to city residents than what they had proposed a few years back."
How about because it's a good negotiating technique? The more it can demonstrate that it can still move people during a strike, the stronger management looks.
[Doesn't the city subsidize the operation of Penn Station?]
Amtrak owns Penn Station; LIRR and NJT are just tenants.
Anyway, both LIRR and Metro-North are largely funded by state assistance (i.e. tax dollars), about HALF which are paid by CITY residents. (Why do WE always have to bail out the 'burbs?)
Yes, I know. I remember reading somewhere recently that the city itself contributes specifically to Penn Station and/or Grand Central (both, I think, but I'm not sure) -- above and beyond the state subsidies to commuter rail paid by city residents. I don't remember where I read it or I'd go back and verify the details.
If the trains ran normally through the strike, they'd be very crowded, but the suburbanites would still have their seats, at least on the inbound runs. What I suggested would insulate the city crowds from the suburban riders, who would have to give up a bit of their service in exchange. In either case, the suburbs would still have it much easier.
Why the extreme of a strike, why not other job actions before a strike like a rulebook slowdown or s sick out??
Both I beleive still illegal but might be as effective.
I'm sure there will be at least a rulebook slowdown as we get closer to Sunday. Some idiot keeps trying to block the doors while they are closing? Each time that happens, add 15 seconds to the dwell time! -Nick
Who needs an employee holding the doora open to do a rulebook slowdown? The customers do that now. The only thing the T/O has to do is tell that to Control on the radio.
Unfortunately, Control does not see 'customer interference' and 'heavy riding' as valid excuses for late trains.
I can see some rulebook slowdowns, calling in every time you get to a red signal. Calling in every defect (broken window). Buses with broken destination signs, refuse to take out.
Stuff like that.
Because it's only a strike THREAT. An actual job action of any kind would actually be turning up the heat. The threat of a strike doesn't turn public opinion against you nearly as much as making everyone 30 minutes late to get home. Also, I'm sure that the TA employees themselves aren't interested in making their work day any longer than it has to be.
Don't forget that the sides are still negotiating -- each side trying to make the other fear not reaching agreement by making wild threats
(We'll go on strike vs. we'll fine you $25K each, per day).
You'll see "job actions" and/or "sickouts" during the period of time that negotiations have been extended and workers are without an in-force contract.
Can someone tell me how to contact one of the services that helps you
get in the last bid at eBay. I keep getting beat out in the final seconds!
Thanks you guys!
So-called "sniping" software is available, where else, on eBay. I've often wondered how two bidders with identical sniping software would fare in a bidding war. My advice is to enter your drop dead high bid anytime in the auction and let the chips fall where they may. I've lost any number of auctions to snipers, but in the long run, I'm very happy with what I've acquired through eBay auctions, mostly railroad books and models.
Ubid has a nice feature called bid butler.
It allows you to put your maximum bid and handles increasing your bid once you are outbid. It is a big help in getting the product at the price you want to pay.
so does ebay, but nobody seems to realize it, or trust it (even though it never fails). Besides, it doesn't have a clever name like "bid butler".
I would not bid any other way.
As Gelorge Foelschow said, put in your absolute highest bid that you want....because even if you use the sniping software, you have to set a limit. If you used sniping software without limits, geez, you might bid a million bucks for a turd found on a subway platform.
As George Foelschow said, put in your absolute highest bid that you want....because even if you use the sniping software, you have to set a limit. If you used sniping software without limits, geez, you might bid a million bucks for a turd found on a subway platform.
I'll see your million and raise you a million. (Thanks, Steve, for spelling my name right.)
Spelling always was one of my strong points.
Question is, Mr. F. -- how do you prefer your surname to be pronounced?
My preference is "FELL show", on the advice of a German professor of painting at the School of The Art Institute of Chicago. Various members of my family use different pronunciations.
Bidding at the last second and winning an auction by 1 cent is awesome! You guys should try it more often. I've done it 3 times in the past 6 weeks.
My advice is to enter your drop dead high bid anytime in the auction and let the chips fall where they may. I've lost any number of auctions to snipers, but in the long run, I'm very happy with what I've acquired through eBay auctions, mostly railroad books and models.
I totally agree. I've learned from experience that its real easy to get carried away and start bidding up an item way beyond what you'd pay for it if you found it in a store (fortunately, I was outbid by others and didn't have to buy the item I'm referring to). Set a limit and stick to it. Unless it is a truly rare item, you'll find another one on eBay again sooner or later. And every now and then, you'll get lucky and pick up something you really want dirt cheap.
Jim D.
Go to www.auctionsniper.com -- register and follow the on-site instructions. I've been using it for a little over a year now, with decent success. Of course if someone else puts in a higher bid than my maximum I'm out, but the plus side of using this service is that you avoid getting into a bidding war with someone, and if you end up winning the item you snipe, you usually get it for a lot less than you would going through the 'regular' eBay channels. Good luck.
Of course, you COULD do like I've done....set a clock to the same exact seond that EBay's clocks are running on, and put in your highest bid at the last possible second. You DO have to know how long it takes yourself to put in that bid, hit the proper buttons and your computer to register it with EBay....but hey, I have won MANY an auction this way without the benefit of sniping software.
I've also won MOST of the close auctions just by putting in the highest amount I'd be willing to part with for a particular item, and letting others be cheap and bid minimum increments to try and beat me.
If you want to pay, for instance, $25.00 for something tops, bid $25.00. If the item is only going for $10.00 when you do it, it will only show that you bid $10.50 until someone else goes higher. It won't show your $25.00 maximum amount until someone else reaches $24.00.
If you want to pay, for instance, $25.00 for something tops, bid $25.00. If the item is only going for $10.00 when you do it, it will only show that you bid $10.50 until someone else goes higher. It won't show your $25.00 maximum amount until someone else reaches $24.00.
I'm not sure that's always the best advice. Too many times I've "watched" auctions where a shill is bidding, trying to push up the price. Yes, it's against eBay policy, but unethical sellers rarely get caught, so I've tended to wait until the last few hours to put in a realistic bid. One particularly blatant case that I observed earlier this year on eBay Motors had a shill pushing up the price of a vehicle bit by bit, always remaining high bidder but enticing another bidder to nudge the price ever higher, hoping that the other bidder would bid beyond the reserve. When that didn't happen, they did a "bid retraction" with less than a minute to go, claiming that "financing fell through". The seller advertised the same vehicle four times before finding a sucker willing to bid high enough to hit the reserve. (Having personally inspected the vehicle, it wasn't nearly as nice as represented either. But I have made a very successful vehicle purchase on eBay, so it can be done... the evidence is right here.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Put your highest bid plus 50 cent past the nearest round number amount... So instead of $24.00, bid $24.50, so when the next guy bids $24.00 as his highest and sees you still got the high bid (which is hidden) he'll back off. But make sure you bid reasonably well.
(b) Presumption. For purposes of this subdivision an employee who is absent from work
without permission, or who abstains wholly or in part from the full performance of his
duties in his normal manner without permission, on the date or dates when a strike
occurs, shall be presumed to have engaged in such strike on such date or dates.
and
(f) Payroll deductions. Not earlier than thirty nor later than ninety days following the date
of such determination, the chief fiscal officer of the government involved shall deduct
from the compensation of each such public employee an amount equal to twice his daily
rate of pay for each day or part thereof that it was determined that he had violated this
subdivision; such rate of pay to be computed as of the time of such violation. In
computing such deduction, credit shall be allowed for amounts already withheld from
such employee's compensation on account of his absence from work or other withholding
of services on such day or days. In computing the aforesaid thirty to ninety day period of
time following the determination of a violation pursuant to subdivision (d) of paragraph
two of this section and where the employee's annual compensation is paid over a period
of time which is less than fifty-two weeks, that period of time between the last day of the
last payroll period of the employment term in which the violation occurred and the first
day of the first payroll period of the next succeeding employment term shall be
disregarded and not counted.
and
(f) If the board determines that an employee organization has violated the provisions of
subdivision one of this section, the board shall order forfeiture of the rights granted
pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (b) of subdivision one, and subdivision three of
section two hundred eight of this chapter, for such specified period of time as the board
shall determine, or, in the discretion of the board, for an indefinite period of time subject
to restoration upon application, with notice to all interested parties, supported by proof of
good faith compliance with the requirements of subdivision one of this section since the
date of such violation, such proof to include, for example, the successful negotiation,
without a violation of subdivision one of this section, of a contract covering the
employees in the unit affected by such violation; provided, however, that where a fine
imposed on an employee organization pursuant to subdivision two of section seven
hundred fifty-one of the judiciary law remains wholly or partly unpaid, after the
exhaustion of the cash and securities of the employee organization, the board shall direct
that, notwithstanding such forfeiture, such membership dues deduction shall be continued
to the extent necessary to pay such fine and such public employer shall transmit such
moneys to the court. In fixing the duration of the forfeiture, the board shall consider all
the relevant facts and circumstances, including but not limited to: (i) the extent of any
willful defiance of subdivision one of this section (ii) the impact of the strike on the
public health, safety, and welfare of the community and (iii) the financial resources of the
employee organization; and the board may consider (i) the refusal of the employee
organization or the appropriate public employer or the representative thereof, to submit to
the mediation and fact-finding procedures provided in section two hundred nine and (ii)
whether, if so alleged by the employee organization, the appropriate public employer or
its representatives engaged in such acts of extreme provocation as to detract from the
responsibility of the employee organization for the strike. In determining the financial
resources of the employee organization, the board shall consider both the income and the
assets of such employee organization. In the event membership dues are collected by the
public employer as provided in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section two hundred
eight of this chapter, the books and records of such public employer shall be prima facie
evidence of the amount so collected.
When Con Edison or Bell Atlantic has a strike, managers work OT to keep some semblance of basic service operating. They can't keep it up forever, and have every incentive to end the strike and get work going again.
If the TA had trained and certified enough managers and others to operate trains and signals, it could have similarly provided a skeleton service on the IRT. It could have included the #7 from Queensboro to Times Square; the #4 from Yankee Stadium to Atlantic Avenue, the #6 from Brookyn Bridge to 3rd Avenue, the #2 from 3rd Avenue to Grand Army Plaza, and the #1 from 137th to South Ferry, all with 20 trains per hour.
That would be enough service to bring everyone into and through the CBD crush loaded in four hours, if people could get to the transfer points. Would life be good? No, it would be awful, and they couldn't keep it up for more than a few days in any event, but the economic damage would be lessoned. In any event, no such preparations have been made.
As for the TWU, if they are going to break the law, one wonders why they are going after their own customers instead of others. All they'd have to do is ride down the highways in a group at 5 mph at rush hour to bring everything EXCEPT the transit system to a standstill. They might get arrested. Then again, they might get arrested for a strike, too.
Speaking of economic damage, I think the long term effects of a three week strike at that time, if the union went bust and people were pretty sure there wouldn't be another one for 22 years, would be less than the damage from a strike threat every two or three years. If it's going to happen sooner of later, might as well get it over with.
>>If the TA had trained and certified enough managers and others to operate trains and signals, it could have similarly provided a skeleton service on the IRT.<<
Gee, that rings a bell........ and where that failed.
BRT > Strike > Luciano > Malbone St.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, boy ... talk about "skeleton service" ... when the telco goes on strike, management can disconnect a call as quickly as a customer service type. Maybe some can even create solder bridges in cables that get cut ... but TRAINS are dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced, or those who haven't touched one in YEARS.
Branford was my own little experience of this - I was once a motorman but in thirty years, lost my "touch" ... fortunately I had enough of it left that nobody DIED, but I sure wouldn't want to see those few who had been motormen that are now "upstairs" try to run a 68 for real with warm bodies on board.
The job requires a WHOLE lot more skill than it appears to.
I sure wouldn't want to see those few who had been motormen that are now "upstairs" try to run a 68 for real with warm bodies on board.
Bad example. Considering the "speeds" at which R-68 hippos operate, nothing too bad can happen.
They're just as deadly if you can't get air in the pipe fast enough when you need it. :)
And you're running in an all-GO environment, with homicidal passengers crushed to suffocation holding the doors. No, just let us cool our heels and think about real life for a while.
Heh. Don't mind me, I just wanted to toss out a dose of "reality" for all concerned. I've done the TWU shuffle, have done the PEF and CSEA shuffle too. Folks spit on state workers somehow hallucinating that those who "suck off the state teat" live a MAGICAL existence (ptoo) while those who work for the taxpayer are more than tired of being spit upon by the public, the politicos, and the MORONS they appoint to "upper adminiswig and docudroid" realms. Words cannot DESCRIBE how much it sucked for me, living in the reality of the wind never blowing twice from the same direction, doing the best I possibly could with what little I was given to work with, and being second guessed constantly by knuckle-dragging political appointees who couldn't tie their own shoes, or wipe up their own drool. And THEN to be treated like some zombied-out welfare recipient when I said, "hey!" ...
For anyone who wants to whiz on the people of the TWU, you really SHOULD try getting that "civil service plum" for yourself and SEE what it's REALLY like. I've always recommended to my own interns and students that EVERYBODY, in order to be properly rounded out, needs to be a footsoldier in ANY political campaign (whatever your party), drive a TAXI, work at a fast food restaurant, AND hire on as a civil servant. Sure does cure you of your chit ...
Hopefully there will be no strike. For those who think civil service is the land of OZ, I thought so once too. Until the SHERIFF showed up at my door because I couldn't afford to pay my RENT on what the STATE paid me, and demanded so I couldn't take a SECOND job to make up the difference ... zero/zero/zero is UNFAIR.
Or let me put it to you THIS way. When *I* signed on with TWU in 1970, they paid conductors $357 a WEEK in base pay - that's what it said on the billboards on the cars, and by gum they PAID it. Now take that $357 a week in 1969 dollars (took me a year to get called) and ply it out to TODAY'S DOLLAR. These folks are SCROOD ... pure and simple.
I don't know, Selkirk. I have a lot to lose in a strike (friends coming in, tickets bought, no way to get there, they go home and don't see stuff ever) and I'm STILL in favor of a strike. I'm willing to give up getting between midtown and downtown because the TIME HAS COME for the people who elected COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE to learn that the party's over. Transit workers do not donate their time to people who lean on the doors and piss on the floors. I'm a consultant, and the productivity losses happen because of people who WRITE REPORTS, not because of people who drive trains and man ticket booths with 5-minute pee breaks MAYBE. This is all about pandering to voters and making all government workers out to be featherbedders always. I've had it with simplistic thinking. It's about time voters learned the hard way that PUBLIC SERVICES ARE NOT FREE.
While I agree with your heartfelt motivations, a STRIKE would be bad for EVERYBODY. What many folks DON'T realize is that when public employees have no out OTHER THAN a strike, things have gotten desperately bad. The PUBLIC never gets the chance to realize the realities, the media and the politicos are forever locked in a dreadnaught of nothingness ... and the idiots STILL re-elect the same old, same old and then wonder why everybody's getting screwed.
There's something REALLY interesting about the last election though, and it's ALREADY coming to pass as PROFF ... the "middle class" is about to get what the "welfare clientele" got years ago - "abolishment" ... there's one HELL of an ugly comeuppance coming for America - folks earning LESS than $450,000 a year and more than $100,000 a year are about to learn how to live in a cardboard box under a bridge abutment ... it's about TIME ... the MIDDLE CLASS is about to be abolished, and it's going to be amusing for us "bottom feeders" to sit back and watch. All those folks who moved out to the suburbs to bask in republican "largesse" will eventually turn "liberal" just like they did in "Daddy's regime" ...
As someone who's too POOR to pay "income taxes" but too rich to avoid "property taxes, sales taxes, and sin taxes" this is going to be GREAT as the rich STOP paying taxes and make *US* pay them instead. Leona Helmsley *IS* our Queen.
They'll turn more than liberal when gas goes to eight bucks a gallon. Suddenly the Grand Concourse line will look like a smart investment again and all those six-story brick numbers in the Bronx will be the hottest property around. That 4000-square foot styrofoam "investment" in Poughkeepsie will go right straight down the tubes, and I don't mean subway. Then the highway interests will be begging the TA to be nice to them for once.
Should be some INTERESTING times ahead. Wonder how viable Ralph Nader, Jesse Ventura and Mark Green will be in two years. :)
In the meantime, it's going to be QUITE interesting to see how those who got played think of their party in two more years. Probably as bitter a taste as those who were democrats in the 70's felt when we got McGoverned and McCarthyed ... Heh. Nothing like waking up pregnant to cure one of their political promsicuity when they AIN'T CEO's. :)
(For anyone who wants to whiz on the people of the TWU, you really SHOULD try getting that "civil service plum" for yourself and SEE what it's REALLY like. I've always recommended to my own interns and students...)
My college used to send me interns. I considered it my duty to try to talk them out of public service.
LOAD OF CRAP. MaBSTOA bus operators base salary is $38,000, plus benefits. After three years, this increases to over $52,000. They paid training, no prior experience is necessary.
I make LESS than that. I have paid nearly $10,000 for training, and I am not done. A college degree is a requirement for my position, or I must have prior equivalent experience. My health plan covers me for free, but to add a spouse, the deduction is over $200/mo. My co-pay is $15, and I have a $500 deductable for hospital visits. My company has no sponsored retirement plan (yet).
And I can live on my salary, pay rent, and have money left over for 'toys'. So don't go telling me that you 'DESERVE' more money. You have the gall to ask for a $12,000 a year increase? I'll gladly take your job. I'll drive a bus for $52,000/yr. Not my first job choice, but hey, you obviously think you can do better. Fuck off.
-Hank
(LOAD OF CRAP. MaBSTOA bus operators base salary is $38,000, plus benefits. After three years, this increases to over $52,000. They paid training, no prior experience is necessary. I make LESS than that.)
Again, the TWU may think it is striking against "management" or the "rich," but all the people who will be hurt are those worse off than the average TA workers, people who no one gives a damn about. And then the pols, who are looking for someone to blame for the fiscal damage they themselves have done, will blame the TWU for 400 percent of all the economic damage they actually cause. Note that, as I have mentioned, the economic damage from a strike over Christmas has already been exaggerated.
One comment : Malbone Street!
I'm betting BMTman is waiting by the phone ready to be called up for active duty. :)
Management operation sounds good, but the difference is that most of Bell Atlantic's and ConEd's networks are automated. The physical labor aspects of management during their strikes were limited to emergency repairs. The subway system is a lot more physical-labor-intensive.
That is what the TA has done a terrible job with over the years.
Failure to automate the subway sytstem
If the TA had forsight they would have management types work X many days a year operating equiptment thus they would be ready to handle a strike
Even skelton service would be dangerous. The brighton express is at crush load even with regular service.
The bus system is another story. The TA could hire charter compaines to operate addional express service to pick up part of the load. The service would operate two and from manhattan to get people to work.
I think the unions would fight automating the system tooth and nail.
You really have no idea how few managers actually come from operating titles now. Many newer TD's and Supts have never been a C/R or TO.
And sorry but they hire overpaid cabbages at Livingston St. 11AM and NO ONE was working except at reading golf magazines and looking at web sites.
(You really have no idea how few managers actually come from operating titles now. Many newer TD's and Supts have never been a C/R or TO.)
Actually, my impression is that (compared with a typical corporation or public agency) a large share of TA managers have come up through the ranks.
With apologies to my fellow workers in Stations I was excluding them.
SA, ATD, TD, Supt.
You never have to touch a train.
"And sorry but they hire overpaid cabbages at Livingston St. 11AM and NO ONE was working except at reading golf magazines and looking at web sites."
As one of the "overpaid cabbages," I must report that
(a) I have no interest in golf whatsoever, and
(b) I do not have internet access in the office.
The "overpaid cabbages" who were doing what was reported (if it's true) should be disciplined -- they make us all look bad.
David the Overpaid Cabbage
I paid a visit to someone who is known on this board.
He was reading a train model magazine his cube mates were playing a solitaire-ish game, reading a golf magazine, another guy had a laptop and was looking at sites. There was a kitchnette/coffee station nearby and 3 guys were shooting the shit talking about how much weight a female coworker had lost or gained or something.
OK you don't really have cubes more like semi attached workstations but it did not impress me as the beehive of industry.
Sounds like lunchtime to me. That kind of stuff generally doesn't happen at other times (and remember, not everybody, even in office-land, starts eating lunch at 12:00:00 and ends it at 12:59:59).
David
(David the Overpaid Cabbage)
This is what results from this type of thing. So you are a cabbage, and NYC teachers should be paid even less relative to those in the suburbs because NYC children (like mine) are animals.
So the TWU wants to blame non-TWU staff for anything they don't get, so they can pretend that they are not striking against the riders, most of whom are poor than they are. And the pols want to blame the public employees for the budget crisis, now that welfare is down and the "welfare queens" cannot be blamed.
Speaking of economic damage, I think the long term effects of a three week strike at that time, if the union went bust and people were pretty sure there wouldn't be another one for 22 years, would be less than the damage from a strike threat every two or three years. If it's going to happen sooner of later, might as well get it over with.
Agreed. Businesses aren't going to pack up and move to Dallas or Charlotte if there's a one-time strike, even one lasting three weeks. Fears of repeated strikes might be a different story.
I was just looking through some pictures at a website which was showing the Atlantic Ave Station on the Canarsie Line. There seems to be a building going up right on top of the old East New York Bay Ridge Branch Station. Is that true? Therefore we will no longer be able to see the entrance to the tunnel which has a big engraving of when consruction took place there. Please verify this for me.
I was just looking through some pictures at a website which was showing the Atlantic Ave Station on the Canarsie Line. There seems to be a building going up right on top of the old East New York Bay Ridge Branch Station. Is that true? Therefore we will no longer be able to see the entrance to the tunnel which has a big engraving of when consruction took place there. Please verify this for me.
An older factory building just to the west of the former ENY station is undergoing major renovations. That's probably what you saw. It doesn't appear that the work will obscure views of the old station in any way.
Correct. I was just there. You can still see the tunnel entrance just fine.
--Mark
Just to add my two cents here: the building immediately to the west of the Bay Ridge branch ROW next to the ENY tunnel is the old Arrow Staples factory that is apparently being converted into residential lofts for the future Yuppification of the area...
LIRR buffs take note: with the work in progress, you can clearly see that the ground floor ceilings have heights indicating that perhaps rail freight deliveries were made directly into the building...anyone have info on whether that might have been the case?
Just to add my two cents here: the building immediately to the west of the Bay Ridge branch ROW next to the ENY tunnel is the old Arrow Staples factory that is apparently being converted into residential lofts for the future Yuppification of the area...
Wow, I would've thought that East New York is just about the last place that'd ever be gentrified. What's next? Luxury townhouses in Arverne and Edgemere?
[Luxury townhouses in Arverne and Edgemere?]
What? You don't know? Yes indeed....gotta ride the A Train out to Far Rockaway one of these days...I'm NOT joking.
(A SubTalker who lives out there can attest to this)
>>[Luxury townhouses in Arverne and Edgemere?]<<
There is plenty of unused beach that would go hand in hand with those luxury townhouses.
Bill "Newkirk"
A. Is it okay to use that "emergency stop" button on a escalator if someone falls down and can't get off the escalator? Withthe possability of being dragged by the escalator.
B. If you lift the cover (GCT escalator to food/commuter leval (split level)) on a escalator will it automatically stop without pressing the button?
C. Why are thoses covers hard to lift and don't indicate where to put your fingers to lift the cover?
D. Does anyone ever pay attention to the alarm of a escalator? OR even supposed to come?
NO! I didn't stop an escalator for the fun of it. Someone just fell and couldn't get off. Don't want to boast so I'am not going to tell the story unless someone asks. Incident happened sometime between 7:30 PM and 7:36 PM today. My train left at 7:37 PM (New Haven Express, figure it out from that, got to head car before it left (1-3 minutes of waiting)). Also that incident was why the down escalator was off, in case anyone went by it today after 7:30 PM today.
P. S. A guy (general goose commuter) had the nerve to scream at me to turn that thing back on. Damn people are hostile.
A. Is it okay to use that "emergency stop" button on a escalator if someone falls down and can't get off the escalator? Withthe possability of being dragged by the escalator.
I would certainly think so!
A) Definately YES
B) You'd have to press the button to stop the escalator.
C) To prevent people from stopping the escalators needlessly.
D) There are maintainance people that are supposed to inspect the esccalator and start it running again when it is shut down. It takes a few minutes to arrive.
You might have saved someone's life by pressing the emergency button.
I might also add; If you are not on the escalator and are near the booth and hear soemone screaming that someone fell on the escalator the S/A can stop it via a button inside the booth since most escalator stations have emergency stop buttons in the boothj. I never had to use them so I do not knwo if they actually work. We'd also hit the EBCS to call for help.
To answer an unasked question: In elevator stations, the booth ahs communications with the E/O (elevator operator) or the passengers if self service. In an elevator emergency we'd hit the EBCS and simultaneously talk with the elevator.A fetr that we'd call the field office with the info and they'll send a supewrvisor as top prioriry.
Response will be police and E & E (Elevaotr & Escalator) and if the e;eveator is udner contract, the service company. If needed, EMS will also be sent. AFter peole arfe freed supervision will offer medical to all in the elevator and ask the S/A and E/O for tons of paperwork.
Maybe the next fantrip that we go on we should make a little advance arrangement to take a full group photo outside posed in front of the equiptment. We could do it at a terminal station so as not to delay the run.
Larry, RedbirdR33
How about in Grand Central Station. It's wide enough. And on the weekend we can choose a spot and a place.
What are the legal issues in scanning thoses free subway maps? And posting the on the 'Net?
Have some historic ones (1988, 1995 mannie bridge, ancient bus map that shows the Q17 ending at 165 st terminal).
Im sure the MTA has bigger issues, on their hands right now.
IANAL (required disclaimer).
Under current law the 1988 work is in the public domain only if it has no copyright notice. The 1995 work in not in the public domain, notice or not. The cutoff date for this is March 1, 1989.
So these are probably not in the public domain. My guess is that if you post these strictly for information purposes (no financial gain in any way), you'll be left alone. But if the MTA were to ask you to take them off, I would.
Thanks!
Now, I just have to find a real lawyer.
Now, I just have to find a real lawyer.
Actually, I know some. Unfortunately they want money.
The most important thing you can do this year to help yourself, your family and your community is to come to the mass rally at City Hall Park nextMonday, December 16, at 5 p.m.
This will be a historic demonstration of the entire labor movement. On December 15, the day before, the contract between the Transit Authority and the Transit Workers Union (TWU) Local 100 expires. The MTA has offered a 0% raise for the first year, raises tied to productivity gains for the remaining years of the contract, a 2.3% giveback through reinstatement of pension contributions, and increased healthcare costs for workers. In past negotiations, including the last round, the TWU Local 100 contract has set
the tone and the pattern for the entire city workforce.
Make no mistake about it: Local 1180 members will pay the price as much as Local 100 members if management is allowed to impose these terms.
But as important as these issues are, there is much more at stake. The contract offer from MTA is part of a general effort by city and state officials to solve the budget crisis on the backs of the working class. Fare hikes, tuition increases, cuts in social services, layoffs and regressive taxes are the "solutions" being discussed now. All these proposals would hurt average working people in New York City. The wealthy, meanwhile, once again get a free ride, after having been the overwhelming beneficiaries of the
Giuliani tax cuts which created much of the budget mess we are in now.
It doesn't have to be this way! The Working Families Party has produced a report showing that the budget can be balanced with a series of fair tax increases that target the wealthy. TWU Local 100 presented its own research to the MTA, to demonstrate that costs can be saved, service improved and a fare hike avoided. But none of these alternatives will be even considered unless there is a massive public outcry against the current proposals.
It all starts on December 16: 5 p.m., City Hall Park. So come to the
demonstration, bring your co-workers, and spread the word in your community.
Our contract and the future of our city are at stake.
Lou,
Good job bringing this up. As a shop steward with DC 1707, I'll be there with that evening. We must be heard against the tax cuts for the rich while workers get -2.3,0,0!
Those who are concerned about the working class in NYC, please join us Monday 12/16
Today we work our way across town.
The Chicago Terminal is a maze or better yet, a labyrinth of rail lines. This myriad of trackage threads its way here and there throughout the entire region. There are clearly hundreds of main line route miles within the entire Chicago Switching District. If you add up all the main, yard and industrial trackage, the total amount is in the tens of thousands of miles. In the late 1970’s alone, the Belt Railway of Chicago had some twenty-two thousand miles of yard, industrial and secondary trackage in addition to their twenty-six miles of double track main line.
To give you a perspective of the Chicago Switching District, it is basically the area encircled by the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Railway. The J reaches all around Chicago starting up at Waukegan on the north shore of Lake Michigan. The line runs to the west through communities Mundelein before turning to a southerly direction. Municipalities such as Lake Zurich and Barrington are traversed as the line heads to its namesake city of Joliet. It is just east of the East Joliet Yard where the line gradually makes an eastward turn and heads into Indiana. Upon reaching Griffith, IN a turn to the north is made and the J heads on into Gary where the principal route ends at the west end of Kirk Yard. The area inside of this perimeter is what is covered in the CORA guide (Chicago Operating Rules Association). The J crosses either at grade, overhead or underneath every railroad that enters the Chicago Switching District.
Mergers, consolidations, route rationalizations and the like have taken their toll on total Chicago area route miles in the past thirty-five years. Penn Central and their Conrail successor eliminated several entire routes through the Chicago Terminal. Included are portions of the old New York Central route between Whiting, IN and Chicago, most of the old Pennsylvania Railroad Panhandle Route and most of the South Chicago & Southern (SC&S) Route. The lion’s share of the old Michigan Central’s Joliet Branch has vanished as well. The Englewood Connecting Line that linked the Panhandle and their yard at 59th Street to the PRR’s Chicago to Pittsburgh line is also a memory now.
Other roads have also consolidated and eliminated routes as well. After the Chicago & Northwestern and Chicago Great Western merged, most the CGW line in the Chicago area was deemed duplicate and eliminated. The Indiana Harbor Belt acquired a small segment of this line that operated near and underneath their main line to access and service several industries. The Chicago Transit Authority acquired another segment on Chicago’s west side for part of the "El" rapid transit system. A portion of joint track with the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal was taken over completely by the B&OCT. Soo Line and later Wisconsin Central had trackage rights over this portion for many years. And recently, CSX abandoned a portion of this line. Another column is already partially written about this line and will appear at some point in the future.
The IHB eliminated a major portion of their old Stockyard Branch in the late 80’s and early 90’s using portions of the parallel BRC West Yard Line and the Conrail 49th Street Industrial. A portion of this reroute was due to the construction of the CTA’s Orange Line between downtown Chicago and Midway Airport on the city’s southwest side.
I could easily go on and on about line reductions and eliminations but won’t at this time. Line reduction and elimination could very quickly become a massive series of its own. Instead, we will use this information as a foundation for a series of columns I intend to present over a period of time about the different routes I have operated upon to get across the Chicago Terminal. And even with the vast elimination of entire lines, I will demonstrate the difficulties we routinely encounter in getting across Chicago.
Having worked for so many railroads in the area, I have been given quite the opportunity to run trains over numerous lines within the Chicago Terminal. In a few cases, I have operated on the same line segments for several different railroads. The Canadian National Illinois Central and its predecessors would be one of those involved. Having worked for the Chicago Central, Wisconsin Central and later, Indiana Harbor Belt, I was given the opportunity to operate on portions of all of the Illinois Central Gulf, Illinois Central and then CNIC routes in the Chicago Terminal going back to 1986.
With this lesson which will be presented in two parts, we will focus upon the CNIC. We are going to take a little thirty-two mile run from Hawthorne Yard in Cicero on Chicago’s southwest side to Markham Yard in the south suburbs. Markham extends from Harvey on the north to Homewood on the south with Markham proper on the west side between Hazel Crest and Harvey.
Thirty-two miles doesn’t sound very far now does it? Actually, it really isn’t a particularly great distance but on some days it just seems like "You can’t get there from here." And with the journey will be a scenic tour and a bit of a history lesson as well.
Our journey begins on the morning of 22 November 2002, which happens to be the thirty-ninth anniversary of the assassination of President John Kennedy. This was not the reason I settled upon this date, I merely picked it at random.
Conductor Jerry Voss and I were ordered for 0600 hours at Hawthorne for the Hawthorne-Markham Transfer assignment, R954. This is our symbol for payroll purposes, but we operate using the train symbols of the trains we handle, or go by the name "Hawthorne Transfer." Our run has us taking train 338 from Hawthorne to Markham and returning with train 337. A crew from Hawthorne takes 337 to Freeport, IL turning there and bringing train 338 east back to Hawthorne.
Hawthorne Yard is located in a primarily east-west configuration between Cicero and Austin Avenues at 3300 south. The mailing address is actually 3300 S. Laramie Ave, which passes underneath the yard just west of the yard office. Sportsman’s Park/Chicago Motor Speedway and Hawthorne Park race tracks are immediately to the south of the yard. While designed and intended primarily for industrial support, Hawthorne has become a classification yard for the CNIC in Chicago. In its independent days, CCP used Hawthorne as its principal classification facility in Chicago for several years. In latter CCP days up to and then following the IC taking them back over, Hawthorne returned to its industrial support function only to be changed again after the CN and IC merger.
Back to our trip. We were given charge of IC engines 6009, 6251 and Grand Trunk 5942 (three SD40 series locomotives producing a total of 9000 horsepower) along with 85 loads, 55 empties, 13,061 tons and 8288 feet of train. Right off the bat I discovered a problem with the 5942. It was low on cooling water. I requested the opportunity to add water to the system which would not have taken but ten or fifteen minutes, but was denied. It was more important to get the train out. Of course that means we now had 3000 less working horsepower and about 200 tons of dead weight added to our train. Never mind the fact we would not come close to seeing track speed when we got onto the Chicago Sub.
Using track number two of the Freeport Subdivision, we departed Hawthorne at 0710. The Freeport Sub is a double track route between Broadview, milepost 14.5 and 16th Street, milepost 1.5. Track one is signaled for westbound moves and track for eastbound moves. The yard office is located at about milepost 9. Just east of the yard at milepost 8.3 is the crossing of the old Chicago & Illinois Western (The Wobbly) West Branch and the Belt Railway of Chicago double track main line. The Wobbly has long been part of the IC and exists in memory only these days. There are also four wyes here, one in each quadrant of the crossing connecting the Freeport Sub to the Belt. The northwest wye also connects to the Manufacturers Junction Railway, a small short line that was once owned by Western Electric. The MJ used to switch the sprawling Western Electric Hawthorne Works plant that was just north of here. The plant is long gone but the MJ survives as a unit of OmniTrax switching several other industries in the area.
The Belt crossing is called Hawthorne on the BRC. We frequently get murdered here for cross traffic. The Belt North Dispatcher controls this crossing. In an economy move in the late 80’s the tower that was located at this crossing called Belt Tower on the IC and staffed by an IC employee was eliminated. Control was given to the Belt Dispatcher and this has become an almost automatic delay to most every CNIC train that traverses the Freeport Sub. On occasion, this crossing has been the death of many a train crew running low on sand in the hours of service glass. Somehow today, we didn’t get the usual beating though. Hey, it happens.
Just east of this crossing we encounter automatic block signal (ABS) W8.2. It is dark meaning there is no signal aspect being displayed. The operating rules instruct us to treat a dark signal (or no signal displayed where there would normally be a signal displayed) as the most restrictive signal it can give. Being that this is a block signal (also referred to as an intermediate signal) equipped with a number plate on it and not a controlled or interlocking signal, the most restrictive signal it displays is the color red which means restricted proceed. This aspect allows us to proceed past it without stopping at restricted speed.
As defined in the Canadian National U.S. Operating Rules, restricted speed reads as follows;
"When a train or engine is required to move at restricted speed, it must proceed prepared to stop within half the range of vision, short of train, engine, railroad car, Roadway Workers or equipment fouling the track, stop signal or derail or improperly line switch. The crew must keep a lookout for broken rail and not exceed 20 MPH.
Comply with these requirements until the leading wheels pass reach a point where the movement at restricted speed is no longer required or have reached the end of signalled territory."
In signalled territory like the Freeport Sub, once the leading wheels pass the next signal displaying a more favorable indication, we can resume normal speed.
Under restricted speed, the onus is placed entirely upon the Engineer and Conductor of train that is required to move under this rule. If something goes wrong, we are held responsible under most circumstances. Needless to say, I take this rule very seriously. And just because I can operate as fast as 20 MPH, it does not mean I will. All circumstances must be taken into consideration in determining just how fast I will move this train. These circumstances would include weather and visibility impairments caused by inclement weather, curves in the track restricting the total range of vision and the like.
There are several sets of hand operated crossover switches between signal W8.2 and the next signal which is at the IN (Illinois Northern) crossing at milepost 7.1. We must keep a lookout to make certain these switches are lined for our movement. Should one be improperly lined and we run through it, we would be held responsible.
On the south side of the mains just east of the Belt Crossing and extending up to Pulaski Avenue milepost 7.6 is Crawford Yard. This is an old Wobbly facility that featured a small yard office at one time. Several C&IW jobs were based out of this yard when the Wobbly was a subsidiary of the IC. They also had their own locomotives, several EMD switchers. As then, this yard is used as industrial support. Cars are stored here for nearby industries on the Freeport Sub and on the East and West Branches of the Wobbly. Two jobs normally switch out and gather up cars form the yard for industries and another delivers and pulls cars from here. No jobs are based out of Crawford today as they come in from Hawthorne with their engines to work here.
We arrived at the IN at 0718 encountering a stop signal (red with no number plate). The IN, which has been part of the Santa Fe and now BNSF for many years, is a branch line that comes out of Corwith Yard and serves several industries in Chicago. BNSF sold off much of this line awhile back, but maintains the connection to interchange cars with the short line that now operates the IN. Jerry has to get off and go operate the time release at the crossing in an attempt to obtain a proceed signal for us to cross here. Being that we have been having recurring trouble at this crossing, it is not likely we will get the signal this day either. After waiting the allotted time as prescribed by the instructions posted in the release box and then getting no favorable signal, we flag our way through the crossing. Jerry positively ascertains no approaching traffic on the cross route and places lighted fusees on the IN tracks to protect the move. We then proceed across and head towards Ash Street, again at restricted speed. This little effort caused a total of eleven minutes of delay.
"Little things mean a lot."
Just east of the IN on track number one is the connection to the Wobbly East Branch. There are several industries along this line but only one left that receives rail service. And from what I have been told, their days are numbered.
We wend our way towards milepost 5.6 and Ash Street, the crossing with CSX’s Blue Island Sub and Norfolk Southern’s Chicago River & Indiana Industrial Track. CSX is the western set of tracks and the NS the eastern set. Both of these lines are double track routes that see considerable traffic with both of them connecting to the BNSF’s former Burlington Northern and Union Pacific’s former CNW. Until CSX abandoned part of the Altenheim Sub earlier this year, Wisconsin Central trains also used both the CSX and NS lines to affect interchange to both railroads. And like so many other crossings in Chicago, we frequently get stopped here for cross traffic as well. At one time in the fairly recent past, the former Panhandle line also crossed here. The diamonds were removed last year as no traffic has moved across this portion of the line in over two years.
Between the IN and Ash Street are two curves, one to the right and the other to the left. Remember that restricted speed rule and being able to stop within half the range of vision? The curves are a huge factor. As we swing out of the left handed curve we encounter the switch that leads into Bricks, Inc. This is a brickyard we do a pretty fair amount of business with. It is lined properly and we continue on. As we wind out of the curve and back onto tangent track, we join up with the parallel BNSF (former Santa Fe) line that once was a through route towards downtown Chicago. It is now a double track connection between the former ATSF mains at Corwith and the previously mentioned CSX and NS lines. The connection between the three roads occurs between Ash St. and Brighton Park which is about half a mile south of Ash. There are frequently intermodal trains to and from the eastern lines and BNSF parked here.
The Santa Fe used to cross Ash Street as it proceeded up to Bridgeport directly along side the Freeport Sub. It was truncated in the mid 90’s with the diamonds that used to cross Ash removed. The Santa Fe north main track east of the diamonds was taken over by the IC and used for a siding. Actually it is a storage track and was stub ended until just a couple of weeks ago when a switch was installed at the west end of it just east of Ash St. Until that time, the only way to get in and out was via the switch at Bridgeport. The south track between Ash and Bridgeport remains mostly intact, but with no way to get into it, as there are no switches for access from either end.
As we get straight out of the curve I can see ABS W5.8. It displays an approach (yellow) aspect. Being that the Freeport Sub between milepost 15 and 5.6 is under yard limits rules, we are still required to operate at restricted speed. Under yard limits rules, we must have a signal more favorable than approach to operate at normal timetable track speed.
In all honesty, I have no clue as to why we have signal W5.8 anyway. It is only about 800 feet from the home signal that protects the crossing at Ash Street. Based upon the maximum speed of 25 MPH, there is insufficient braking distance to reduce from 25 to a stop safely in this distance. We used to get an advance approach signal (flashing yellow) at the IN when signal W5.8 was approach and Ash Street was a stop signal. For whatever reasons, the IN no longer displays advance approach. The best signal I have ever observed here since 1996 is just approach. W5.8 was mounted on a signal bridge but changed to a ground mast signal in the late 90’s and the bridge removed. The current system requires us to operate at restricted speed for a longer distance now. We go slower instead of faster in the new millennium. Money was spent to change the signal mount, but none was spent to upgrade the signal system or resolve whatever problems seem to exist there.
There are times I have observed W5.8 displaying a restricted proceed (red with a number plate) while Ash was displaying an approach aspect. Normally, when Ash is displaying a stop signal, W5.8 is displaying a restricted proceed, but not always. Much of the time if Ash displays an approach or clear signal, W5.8 displays an approach. I’ve yet to see it display a clear (green) signal.
Now here is where you need to really know your railroad. If you are going to proceed from track two to track one at Bridgeport, the next signal and control point, and are already lined up to proceed there, you will get a clear at Ash Street. The way Bridgeport is configured now you are actually making a straight track move to cross between the tracks. More on that when we reach Bridgeport. If you are proceeding from track two to track two at Bridgeport, the best signal you get at Ash is an approach. Ash is not set up to display an approach diverging (yellow over green) signal aspect.
When weather conditions are favorable like no heavy snow, rain or fog and no bright sunshine, you can see the signal at Ash Street about the same time you can see W5.8. Being that it is somewhat overcast, I can see Ash also displays an approach signal. The signal as Ash is a dwarf or pot signal. Instead of being mounted up high on a ground mast, it is a short little signal mounted about a foot above the ground.
We proceed without stopping at Ash. However, there is a 10 MPH speed restriction across the diamonds here. This 10 has been in effect for what seems to be a million years. I recall this being in effect when I worked at the CCP back in 86 and 87. It is not a timetable restriction but rather one listed on as a General Bulletin Order on our Daily Operating Bulletins (DOB) and Tabular General Bulletin Orders (TGBO).
The tower at Ash remains standing in the southeast quadrant though it was closed in 2001. The switching equipment used to operate the interlocking is located inside the tower. The CNIC Desk One Dispatcher now controls this crossing.
After passing over the crossing, we start up a slight ascending grade and begin past the west end of IMX (Intermodal Exchange). This is the former IC intermodal facility in Chicago that is now leased to Union Pacific. The IC leased this facility to the Southern Pacific in 1995 when they relocated their Chicago intermodal operations to Markham and the MIT facility. UP took over when they consumed the SP in 1996. We also start around a right hand curve and head towards Bridgeport.
As we close in on Bridgeport we wind around a left handed curve. If there is a train on number one track we cannot see the signal at Bridgeport until we come out of the curve and are about six or eight car lengths away from it. If there are cars sitting in either of the storage tracks at IMX, we also have restricted vision and cannot see the signal at Bridgeport until we are about twenty to twenty-five car lengths from the signal. Being that we normally get an approach at Ash, we are approaching the bridge prepared to stop.
Today we have no interference on track one and can see the stop signal fairly easily. I ease the train to a stop at 0749. While we are waiting I’ll explain how things are laid out here. In the past, in addition to the IC and Gulf, Mobile & Ohio converging at Bridgeport the Santa Fe operated through here as well. Until Amtrak was rerouted off the Santa Fe between Chicago and Galesburg in favor of a routing over the former BN in the mid 90’s, the Santa Fe had two tracks extending between Ash and Bridgeport. All three rail lines converged into two tracks across the bridge which at one time was movable. The Santa Fe than went to a single track between the bridge and 21st Street. This single track was removed from service in the mid-80’s and the ICG was used between the bridge and 21st for Amtrak trains to and from Union Station.
In 1972 the IC and GM&O merged making it all the ICG. Things remained status quo on the separate but parallel IC and GM&O lines through here until the mid-90’s.
As we are sitting facing roughly east at Bridgeport, the former Santa Fe would be to my immediate right. Off to the right of that coming in at an angle from the southwest would be the former GM&O, now the CNIC Joliet Sub. Along side of it is the CTA’s Orange Line "El" route. To my left is the very east end of IMX. The leads from IMX join number one main here using dual control power switches and are part of the entire Bridgeport interlocking. Until the mid-1990’s when the entire plant was reconfigured and simplified, there was a Control Operator at Bridgeport. His shanty was perched high above it all on top of the bridge itself. There were also two sets of signals on either side of the bridge, the signals mounted right at the bridge itself and then the signals on the outermost points of the interlocking.
The outer signals held trains outside the entire plant. The bridge signals directed you onto both either the tracks on the bridge itself and then the various tracks on either side. The signal at the bridge was a four aspect affair and had its aspects explained in the timetables of the respective railroads involved. There were puzzle switches placed on either side of the bridge to direct the movements anywhere through the plant. For those unfamiliar with the term puzzle switch, their name describes them to a T. They are highly complicated, mechanical or manual operated switches. There are numerous moving parts to them (such as numerous switch points) and they are very labor intensive to maintain and, of course, prone to failure. And it is also puzzling how such a complicated piece of hardware worked so well.
The aspects displayed on the bridge were as follows; the top aspect governed movements to the former GM&O tracks. The second aspect governed movements to the Santa Fe tracks. The third aspect governed movements to the IC tracks and the bottom signal governed movements against the current of traffic on the IC, into Bridgeport Yard and the east end of IMX.
Today, the Operator, signals on the bridge and puzzle switches are long gone. The only signals are ground mast signals at the outermost points of the plant. They are a little closer in to the works on the east side of the bridge, but about the same location west of the bridge. The Desk One Dispatcher controls all of this operation. The speed over the bridge was increased to 25 MPH with the removal of the puzzle switches.
After a wait of one hour and one minute for Metra trains 16 and 18 and Amtrak 303, we get the signal and are now on the move again at Bridgeport. The morning rush was screwed up owing to a suicide on the Joliet involving a Metra commuter train. Being there is only 8000 feet between Bridgeport and Cermak the next control point we encounter, the long trains CNIC insists on operating get harpooned in favor of the Metra and Amtrak trains that operate daily through Bridgeport. Of course, we are presently blocking Ash Street, so the NS and CSX are getting stabbed there while we sit and wait here. See how such situations seem to create a domino effect?
Bigger is better, right?
So as I mentioned, we are on the move. We get a diverging approach signal, red over yellow over red. With this signal we are going from track two to track two, but are actually crossing over to accomplish this task. Track two swings to the left past the signal and enters track one. There are two separate sets of crossover switches here and the Dispatcher had the option of crossing us over to two at the first or second set, depending upon what is going on here with regards to other moves. This offers greater flexibility. We then go from track one back to two at the western set of crossovers and head east.
The diverging approach signal tells me I can proceed on the diverging route not exceeding the maximum prescribed speed of the turnouts and prepared to stop before passing the next signal. Cermak is the next signal and it is a really dandy. More as we come up to it.
As we head across the bridge, we see the Bridgeport Yard lead to the far left. That is far left as we observe it physically not politically. To the right of the lead is the former GM&O southbound now downgraded to the status of storage or running track. The old GM&O northbound was removed between here and Cermak as part of the Bridgeport reconfiguration and the creation of Cermak as a control point. I’m certain there are many days they wish they had this track back too. To my right the Santa Fe single track is long gone. The track was rolled up in 1987 and the right of way graded and extended. Today this right of way plays host to the Chicago Transit Authority’s Orange Line that runs between downtown Chicago and Midway Airport on the city’s Southwest Side.
We wind around a right handed curve passing the west end of Bridgeport Yard itself. This yard is primarily used for industry support and for the transfer of cars between Hawthorne and Glenn Yards.
We swing back around to the left by the Halsted Street CTA station, under the Dan Ryan Expressway (I-94) up to Cermak. A cost effective pot signal system is in place at Cermak. These low mounted signals are literally squeezed in between the tracks which are in the curve. Including the angle of their positioning, the curve itself, the potential for another train to be on track one here and bright sun light, these signals can be extremely difficult to see. And being that we never get anything better than an approach or diverging approach signal at Bridgeport, we must approach Cermak prepared to stop before passing its signals.
We arrive at the Cermak interlocking. The road bearing the same name in honor of the late Chicago mayor Anton Cermak runs beneath the railroad here hence the name for this plant. Cermak is where the former GM&O was split. The east end of the storage track ties into the plant here. The remaining far eastern end of the double rack north and southbound mains connects to the Freeport Sub here as well. This short segment of these two tracks swings to the northeast and connect to Amtrak’s Chicago Terminal trackage to reach Union Station in downtown Chicago.
Upon our arrival at Cermak I observe a restricting (red over red over flashing red) displayed. This aspect means I can proceed up to the next signal, which in this case will be 21st Street and less than a quarter mile east of here. Restricting is best signal we normally get at Cermak. With this aspect displayed here, we can either go straight from track two to two or cross over from two to one. We can also cross all the way over the former GM&O from here, but with either a diverging approach (red over yellow over red) or diverging clear (red over green over red) aspect. The next signal for trains using the route towards Union Station is at 21st Street at the very north end of the former GM&O.
Our route keeps us on the IC side of things up to 21st Street which is only several hundred feet east of Cermak. We encounter a stop signal at 21st and I bring things to a halt at 0905 hours. And with this stop we will close today’s tour. I will continue the trip to Markham in the next episode so stay tuned.
For those of you in the Midwest, don’t forget the CNIC Santa Train this weekend, the 14th and 15th. I sent out the itinerary last week all across the Hot Times network and you should have all received it. Once again I’ll be working the Santa train this year and look forward to seeing many of you. Even if your kids are past Santa age or if you have no kids at all, come on out and say hello to Santa’s friendly helpers who staff the train and assist Santa in his journey through Central Illinois. There should be plenty of opportunities for pictures and a look around the cab of the engines.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
This is not meant as a rant, nor, for that matter, will a lot of you will be listening to someone who lives 3,000 miles away but I have some advice to those who would listen to me. That transit strike must not happen. New York has taken in the shorts ever since 9-11 and it doesn't need anything else in the way of a barrier in its attempt at a recovery. Time for labor and management to tuck in their horns and settle this before it gets out of hand. The people are the ones who are going to be hurt by a strike---people who can't get to their jobs in restaurants, clothing stores, appliance shops, office buildings, and, yes transportation outlets. As for Governor Pataki who was entrusted to run things in the state with his landslide re-election victory, time for him to get off his ass and down to the city and get the Mayor, management and the unions to get straight and make things happen so a strike doesn't take place. New York needs breathing room to recover and not another shot in its midsection. I am through now and will call it a day, but I hope there is someone out there listening.
My friend, I don't think anyone wants a strike. I don't want to keep someone from getting to work, school, etc. What else can we do? The two sides aren't able to compromise.... Perhaps all this will settle down in a few days. Communication is a must.
-Stef
Amen and here's hoping some sanity prevails. Nevertheless, 0,0,0 plus givebacks and paybacks is INSANE. Joe Bruno, the man who REALLY runs New York State has a niec little ranch in Brunswick, NY just east of Troy. His little lovenest could stand to see a few thousands angry state employees whooping it up at the 7-11 for a few hours. He just stole NYC's last bundle, the greedy little disgratiata ...
So obviously, there's PLENTY of money ... it just ain't for you guys. And that ain't right. :(
Don't get your hopes up about Paturkey ... for those who have been too busy with the diversions, the LATEST little bit of amusement (?) is that Paturkye just TOOK AWAY the ENTERPRISE ZONE money for the former World Trade Center and declared Joe Bruno's RENSSELAER COUNTY as the replacement "enterprise zone" ... that's right, the federal money for bringing business back to lower Manhattan was just given to Joe Bruno. NYC gets nothing. Wonder why everybody's honked off at the TWU? And Joe Bruno is getting ANOTHER train station in Saratoga, once again at NYC's expense.
I wouldn't blame TWU ONE BIT for shutting it down. Obviously there's PLENTY of money for the TWU, but Bruno and Paturkey would rather hand it out to their cronies and screw everybody else. Folks voted republican. Bend over, here comes your reward. :(
Since I expect people will doubt what I just said, read it and weep ... nobody has balls like our leaders ...
http://www.nysun.com/sunarticle.asp?artID=371
you'd think they'd at least provide a little KY every now and again.
Let the rioting begin, at this rate, the bad old days will be back by the spring.
What I can't get over is everybody blaming BLOOMBERG for all of this, like he has anything to do with it. New York City has been under STATE rule ever since it went bankrupt decades ago. ALL of the city's troubles are Paturkey and Bruno and yet the morons downstate re-elected the creep. I stand in AWE ...
And don't forget how he stands by while NJ runs off with most of the Port Authority money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYBODY walks off with the state's money. I could tell you dozens of "off-topic" stories of companies like Sterling-Winthrop, BASF, Garden Way (TROY-BILT brand) and others who got "economic development money" out of *YOUR* pocket and spent it on moving vans and cardboard boxes ... but hey ... the a$$wipes got RE-elected ... 'nuff said.
Then again, I live in UPSTATE New York ... make your OWN job, or live under a bridge abutment. Or BOTH. :(
I certainly don't blame b-berg. Aside from the albany idiots, Ghooliani was swearing right up until this final moment in office that the city was in great shape. Reality is that it was starting to slide even before 9.11
I am a rider (full disclosure: not a commuter): The state and city wrecked negotiations right off the bat by claiming the workers could improve productivity. That is the nakedest political ploy any damaged politician could pull. Start nuclear, end nuclear. Productivity comes from scheduling, capital planning, good routes, signalization improvements.
I have to disagree with you SB Fred.
While it's a nice thought to ask people to think of others first, the reality is that this is how the tens of thousands of TA employees feed and shelter their families. They should be thinking of themselves here -- it's the biggest opportunity most employees will get (until next contract time) to influence their income.
I appreciate that the majority of TA employees give reasonably friendly service while they're working and I don't begrudge them their right to try to improve their situation at contract time.
If there is a strike New Yorkers, me included, will be greatly inconvenienced -- but there's no inalienable right to public transit service (as much as public transit may bring happiness to many here). We'll walk, bike, car pool, dollar van or whatever it takes to go about the rest of our lives -- we've got families to feed too. (Of course, we'll be waking up at 4:30 AM to beat the crowds).
All of the players -- TA Mgmt, State and City Politicos, Union Leadership and the Employees -- have to weigh out the pros and cons (both short and long term) of settling, stalling or striking. I think the incentives on all sides point to a last minute compromise.
And let us PRAY that Paturkey the pompous, for ONCE in his regime, does the right thing. Working in that "hole in the ground" or driving a city bus is HELL on earth. For those who doubt this, TAKE the civil service test, TAKE the oath, DO it for as long as you can stand it.
Prior to being hired by the TA myself, I thought everyone ASSOCIATED with those evil trains that broke down, caused me to be FIRED for being late to work way too often were EVIL crystallized. Then I got to see it from the "gotta get this junker to the terminal no matter WHAT it takes" (including getting zapped more times than I could stand) ... I CANNOT recommend HIGHLY enough going to work for the TA to truly appreciate what the TWU people do for YOU by somehow making it all work more often than anything ELSE the "gubbamint" does for you.
Compare the TWU to CONGRESS ... 'nuff said. :)
Dude, you need to calm down.
Sorry, the TWU bashers have really gotten to me. The next two years will cure most people of the Rush Limbaugh pied piper act as they lose their homes. The lack of an economy nearly cost me MINE last month, so don't mind me if I take these fascists personally ...
Strikes are illegal. Please remember that. Once you break the law, you deserve nothing.
Good point. I think those revolutionaries that fought back against England in the 1700's should have been arrested.
"Good point. I think those revolutionaries that fought back against England in the 1700's should have been arrested."
Yeah. Great analogy.
Explain why it isn't. Unjust laws are unjust laws in any century.
Comparing a contract negotiation to the American Revolution is silly. Please don't embarass yourself like that.
I wasn't talking about the contract negotiation. I was talking about striking.
If it's illegal for them to go on strike, why is it even an issue if they threaten to? Can't they be arrested if they strike? I really don't see how the city could function.
Oh, it won't be able to function. There's no question about that. I know I won't be getting to work if the subways are out of service. My job is at 66th & Broadway, so the express bus that runs in my neighborhood would leave me nowhere near my job. Neither would Metro-North.
Wait, wouldn't express busses be out of service as well?
The NYC Transit ones would be. But not the private ones like Liberty Lines, Triboro or Command. Liberty Lines bus route BxM11 runs on White Plains Road in the Bronx, so I can take it into Manhattan.
I forgot all about the private busses in Queens. The Q101 even goes into Manhattan. I may be able to get to work after all (along with a several mile walk, but I'm young).
The union must not cause themselves to be fined, or jailed!
Use the rule book, and the contract. Call for inspectors, slow on every signal, be careful with passengers safety,
LABOR needs a decent wage!
I'm sick of all the whining quasi government officals that wave the patriotic flag, and drag out 9/11 every time the tax payer loses a right, freedom or plain old money.
We have plenty of billions to envade Iraq, or just piss away getting ready to invade.
Wheres the money for senior Rx aid and health care?
How's the economy? Let NY take it in the teeth! Let the state, City and schools lose the money! Squeeze the fat cats and they'll find the money from some other source.
What happened to all the revenue from the successful Metro Card?
It when to Albany! Give it back.
RULE BOOK ! RULE BOOK ! RULE BOOK !
Avid
It did go to Albany! Pataki and especially Bruno only care about themselves. They don't give two flying fucks about what happened 9/11. All that matters is what they can get in their pockets.
And WAL*MART, the state's BIGGEST employer ... dunno if anyone noticed, but Bruno just robbed lower Manhattan for the WTC money ... if you didn't read it int he other thread, here it is again ...
Pataki Snubs Chinatown, Helps Bruno Instead
or ...
Shelly says screw Bruno AND the Paturkey he stuffed
Found the article and read it. Man, did it make my blood boil. Apparently this guy is invincible. Nothing seems to stop him.
I took a ***LOT*** of flack here on Subtalk from dittoheads when I tried to point that out. Sorry, I'm a BRONX boy. I grew up to RESPECT the MAFIA ... they at least "spread it around" and the democrats learned to do the same. THESE $cumbags are INVERSE Robin Hoods - they steal from the POOR to give to the RICH. As someone of extreme religious background, who once studied for the priesthood and almost MADE it (were it not for that celebacy thing), I just CANNOT morally allow republicans to breathe ... and yet they wrap themselves in GOD just as much as they wrap themselves in OUR FLAG ... $cumbags ...
And just a second thought - Paturkey is a PUPPET ... ALWAYS WAS ... a LACKLUSTER Assemblyman from Peekskill who was PROMOTED to the task of Governor ***BY*** Joe Bruno (or as we call him up here, "Boss Hogg") ... Paturkey has NEVER had his nose out of Joe Bruno's butt and here you are.
While EVERYBODY blames "DOOMBERG" for everything from acne to Windows XP, the FACT is Joe BRUNO runs this state. Isn't it about time the citizens of the city and this state talk to the REAL governor, JOE BRUNO and give him a piece of your mind? JOE BRUNO is who is screwing everybody to stuff his nest in Brunswick (just east of Troy, NY) and he is about to take out RENT STABILIZATION in NYC come June (when the budget, due April 1 STILL ain't done) ... JOE BRUNO is the enemy. And he's already decided that TWU don't get swineola ...
Meanwhile, everybody's whining about Bloomberg. It's BRUNO ... even RUDY wouldn't screw with the DON ...
dunno if anyone noticed, but Bruno just robbed lower Manhattan for the WTC money ... if you didn't read it int he other thread, here it is again ...
Pataki Snubs Chinatown, Helps Bruno Instead
It might well be that the Renssealear County industrial park is likely to produce more jobs than Chinatown would if it got the assistance. Most of the city's case is based on the assumption that Chinatown suffered severely as a result of 9/11. Is that really true? Some people are skeptical, and I'm one of them.
Wal*Mart appreciates your business. That's ALL the money's going to pay for - ANOTHER Wal*Mart. Rensselaer already had four, not they've got FIVE ... THANK YOU, NYC! We APPRECIATE them low prices, and rumor IS we now are gonna get us a CRACKER BARREL! Woohoo! OOOOOooo-hah.
NYC don't need squat ... believe that? Hey, I'm all for jobs upstate. We need them if we can't create our OWN job - that's how it IS up here. But WAL*MART? Look at it this way though, the money that will keep lower Manhattan boarded up will go to CHEAP AMMO and CAMO cloth for us yahoos. Screw NYC then. :(
Don't mind me, things SUCK upstate ... but then again, it sucks DOWNSTATE as well lately and NYC is providing most of the money to BEGIN with - given 9/11, I'd think it fair if SOME of NYC's money STAYED in NYC. Then again, I guess we NEED another Wal*Mart in Troy. NYC people would only piss it away on a stupid park or something. Silly me, I thought that as a taxpayer and resident of New York State, we were ALL in this TOGETHER as NEW YORKERS. Silly me. I'm sure SHrub will ante up to the bar with a fat check for all of us to be safe and secure, just like he did for Oklahoma, which has had FAR more attacks and loss of life than WE did ...
The slowdown has already started...missed the North Shore railroad meeting because of it. I won't say what lines or times, but it happened twice today on the same GROUP of lines.
At least I got an R-40 treat on 4 Avenue...the fastest I've gone on a non-R142 in a while.
Many of us in the paying public do try to be courteous to the Transit professionals we come across. We are the ones who feel the effects of the slowdowns, not management.
I understand why the rule book slowdowns, but is it really polite to refer to us as bastards?
Aim,
I am not referring to the riding public as bastards. I'm sure a good portion have 2 or more legitimate parents.
The bastards I refer to are in the republicking party, and government office and sitting on court benches. The Unions are representitive of the workers, the middle and the less then middle economical class. The unions are echoing the financial plight of the rest of us. The special interests are worried about their millions.
Thats good they should begin to share the fear that is already in the hearts of the working class and limited income of the elderly.
From the White House down the republickans are always steering the nations attention away from the shitpoor economy and the theives that got it in that condition. Talk of war, patroitism, terrorist and small pox are not helping the Americans in need. Billions for war, but not Rx drugs for seniors. Is this population control, let the old die off because the paid there taxes and don't produce any more.
These are the bastards I speak of. If the shoe fits, buy it!
Tm McAn
avid
"I am not referring to the riding public as bastards."
OK, but it is the riding public who suffers, not the Republicans in Albany and Washington. The union could run a rule book slowdown for 2 years and they'd never be bothered. Even the most of the wealthiest executives from the Upper East Side, Scarsdale, and Great Neck aren't really that much on the mind of the Republicans nowadays. The few that do matter to the Republicans have chauffeurs.
"RULE BOOK ! RULE BOOK ! RULE BOOK ! "
Once again, avid, you show how little you really know about the subject. Allow me to enlighten you. If an employee or group of employees engage in an activity that adversely affects the operation of NYCT AND it can be shown that the employees, under the same conditions, at a previous time, did not engage in that activity, then it can be considered a Taylor Law violation. For example train operators refuse to oprate in service without conductors because it's unsafe where they've previously operated under OPTO rules. Than would be considered an illegal job action under the Taylor Law. A less obvious example; CMBs or machinists who operate the wheel truing machines insist that the journal bearingplug on each axle must be removed by a car inspector before they will put the car on the wheel truing machine. While this might be considered Car inspector work, traditionally, it's been done by the CMBs. If the CMBs suddenly refuse to do it, that refusal would be considered a job action under the Taylor Law.
So Avid - ole buddy - I hope you see the folly of your advice, now.
That's no more illegal than a strike, and they're threatening to do that.
I AGREE, this strike must NOT happen. The victims of this whole thing is not the workers it is the passengers who will have to find alternative ways to get to work, school or wherever. The city, the MTA and the TWU must sit down and negotiate the terms of the next contract and if they do this, it will only solidify a fare hike in the future to pay for the increased salaries. We can't afford to be even deeper in the hole than we already are.
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/images/euclid.gif
From a German webpage. The IND Second System extention after Euclid Avenue. It doesn't show 76 Street. But the route would have gone in the general direction. Not much of it was built. But it does support my observation that 4 tracks continued after the turn offs to Pitkin Yard and Grant Avenue.
But it does support my observation that 4 tracks continued after the turn offs to Pitkin Yard and Grant Avenue.
Yes, but....
We know that. those tracks are right there for everybody to see!
Elias
I never thought I'd have to lean on a wife with a degree in German as part of the 76th Street nonsense.
The caption next to the "tracks" says: "Original planned extension of the Fulton Street Line of the IND."
Sheesh! Talk about grasping at straws.
At least this time the nonsence is a map. Not someone's "word". Maybe there isn't a proposed station at 76 Street. But it shows a route going in that general direction.
I got to unwind and try to steer away from the word "Strike".
The Locomotive Photos Dave put up are awesome! Well done, kind sir.
Two items caught me by surprise (Observations):
1) Work train with R-1/9 Rider Car. I didn't know R-1/9s were diesel hauled later in their lives. How many R-1/9s were designated Rider Cars?
2) Locomotive coupled to IRT Train 11/24/1979 at Morris Park. The photo Dave put up was the other end of the train involved in the accident at East 180th St. Diesel pushing/pulling on one end, 7602 the wreck, on the other end.
Locomotive Practices - The pictures would seem to indicate it was a regular practice to have the locomotive with the long hood facing out, rather than cab forward. When did that change? It's not to say you don't see it these days, but it seems more of a rarity.
Locomotives in Silver and Blue - Rather interesting. It goes to show that not even work equipment escaped the MTA Silver and Blue Treatment. They don't look bad....
I love these old pix!!! Long live GE!!!
-Stef
P.S. I think I'll try to get into bed now. I'll see all of you when I return.
I stayed away from SubTalk for a few days and now I am sorry.
How can I see these pics?
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/locomotives/
Just to provide a perspective of what we're being told up HERE on the Paturkey Farm, here's this morning's Albany Times Union article. No mention of State Police or the Natural Guard as we were told on the 11 o'clock news on WNYT-13 so far ... no subscription required, feel free to visit the TU site:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=81361&category=STATE&newsdate=12/10/2002
B"H
Yesterday evening at about 615pm I go downstairs to the downtown lex plaform at 42nd, and it's completely packed. I mean unsafe...it was bad...obviously there was some sort of problem up the tracks a bit. Okay, so an express pulls in, loads up and departs. Platform is still full, but now i'm in a position to get on the next train.
Almost immediately another train pulls in, we board, and the train pulls out. Immediately before we get to 14th, the train switches over to the local tracks. Okay, so this one is going local I think to myself, preparing to switch. Nope, here's the announcement...running express on the local tracks. Fine, i'll stay here. Another express pulls in right before we split.
We run express down the local tracks till just before BB, whereupon we switch BACK to the express tracks. Mind you, the express train that pulled in to 14th before we left 14th had not passed us at this point, and therefore was still behind us. We proceeded fairly normally the remainder of the trip into brooklyn.
What the heck was this all about? Why would they bother switching an express over to the local tracks and then bringing it back? Did someone make a goof up? Was someone tryng to prove a point? I sure hope it was fun for them, because i'd hate to think that it was all for naught...
Your thoughts?
There was probably a train that went BIE on the SB express track between 14 and BB. Rather than hold service behind it, they rerouted you to the local track. Somewhere between your train's arrival at the switch and the next train's arrival, the problem was solved. Result: you ran express on the local. Big whoop. It happens all the time.
It sounds like there was some sort of problem on the express track, so your train was switched to the local to get by it. It's good it switched back to the express track before Brooklyn Bridge -- otherwise either you would have found yourselves going back uptown or your train, full of passengers, would have been laid up for the night in one of the spur tracks.
I'll have to let someone who was there elaborate on what the problem was.
I guess this wasn't the problem...
---Brian
BABY BORN IN SUBWAY BEATS THE MORNING RUSH
Now this kid will make a great sub-talker. He's got us all beat. He was born on the subway.
Best Wishes to the little guy and his parents.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The great part of the story is that it was a FEDEX worker who made the delivery.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sadly, we all know that FedEx uses a lot of planes. So much for the kid being a railfan
Nah...this kid is an *automatic* railfan, by default. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I would suppose the kid's middle name will be 'Six'....:)
6 of 4. 8-)
A very lovely woman and a gorgeous baby.
That almost happened to me about 8 years ago. I came to the aid of a woman having contractions in the 53rd-Lex subway station. Thanks to some very helpful passersby, cops and EMTs, we got her out of the subway and over to Cornell before the Main Event.
"Thinking she could make it to Beth Israel Hospital, Dawn Martinez, 32, and her husband, Modesto, of The Bronx, hopped on a 6 train around 4:05 a.m. yesterday...."
Coincidentially, that's the hospital where I was born, in June of '79.
My brother managed to get born in NY Hospital on Christmas Day '83, despite the fact that my parents had to drive all the way uptown through winter weather from Greenwich Village.
Did you get a good glimpse of the Worth St. station?:)
B"H
train was absolutely crush loaded. and I was facin the other way (not that I had intended to face the other way mind you...)
By the way, the train was a set of redbirds which looked like they were being prepped for swimmin. the ads and frames were removed from the walls of the car I was in... the ceiling ads were still there, but they were old, and the walls were stripped...was weird.
I'm wondering what happens, security-wise, should UTW stage this work-stoppage. If there are no, or a greatly-reduced number of, transit workers in the system that day or days, how is vandalism and/or (God forbid) sabotage prevented? Does the MTA close all the entrance gates? Do they just close off the turnstile gates? What about the potential damage to areas outside fare-control? What stops graffitists or more dangerous vandals from waltzing into tunnels at their various portals, or onto elevated trackage? You get the idea. With the threat of terrorism at the height that it is, this strike could be not only inconvenient, but dangerous. [I'm not taking sides here (publicly). I'm merely asking a logistical question.]
Uh, nothing stops transit cops from staying on duty during the strike. Besides, do you really think the token booth clerks do anything as it is to stop vandals from jumping the turnstiles, other than calling cops if there happen to be any in the station?
No, but the mere presence of transit workers in booths, on trains, on platforms and in towers does act as a deterrent if not an airtight shield. Some people are only as honest as their opportunities.
There are detailed plans in place. Managerial employees have their strike assignments already.
Does anyone know if the LIRR workers will stage a sympathy strike if you guys go out on 12/15?
i cant speak for LIRR, but as for MNRR, we plan to keep running. us and LIRR are considered seperate divisions, so LIRR strikin would make no sense
Glad to hear MNRR will be running. That or Liberty Lines will be the only ways I can get into Manhattan.
I can't see any of the other TWU groups having anything to do with the TA strike, UNLESS it drags out, THEN Roger would need everybody's help to get the MTA back to the table. This would mean other AFL-CIO groups in the transportation field as well as TWU.
Not at all but it is hoped they do not use this to bang in the OT.
Not the same union, and besides, have subway workers ever gone out in sympathy with other transportation workers' strikes?
Also, as I understand the contracts of the LIRR operating employees, each day that an LIRR worker was out on a sympathy strike would be a "failure of service." Three of those in six months (IIRC) and you can be fired.
I doubt that there is a union contract any where in the world under which absence is not grounds for discipline. If a strike -- legal or illegal -- ends in a settlement, the employees' absence is dealt with in the settlement. If there is no settlement, the union is broken or the employer goes out of business, either of which results in loss of employment for the strikers.
Unlikely. If you look back to the 1980 LIRR strike, subways kept running. And during the 1980 subway strike, the LIRR was running (a 60-day cooling off period invoked by the Feds was in effect, IIRC).
--Mark
The question is an important one.
Everyone who matters in this state lives in Manhattan (and can walk) or outside New York City. Want proof? Where are the Mayor, NYC City Council Speaker, Assembly Speaker, and State Senate Minority Leader from? Manhattan. Others with power, like the Governor, Senate Majority Leader, etc. are from outside the city. Same with the private sector.
The TWU is playing a game of chicken -- who cares less about transit riders from the outer boroughs, them or the Governor. The fact is that neither gives a damn, so if a strike gets rolling, it will go on a long time. Bothering the suburban commuters, however, is another matter.
One thing the TWU needs to understand is that they are monopoly of an essential service. Striking without an offer on the table that people think of as fair would be the same as Con Edison cutting electric power unless a 25 percent price increase is approved. The TWU will be blamed for the economic damage they do, and the people who lose their jobs. They are looking around for people to demonize.
More importantly, the TWU would be blamed for economic and fiscal problems that have nothing to do with a strike. The winners have taken their winnings and left the city and state (again). The politicians who handed out the favors and haven't had the sense to leave with their beneficiaries are looking for people to absorb blame. Bin Laden was useful, but not enough.
Everyone who matters in this state lives in Manhattan (and can walk) or outside New York City. Want proof? Where are the Mayor, NYC City Council Speaker, Assembly Speaker, and State Senate Minority Leader from? Manhattan. Others with power, like the Governor, Senate Majority Leader, etc. are from outside the city. Same with the private sector.
The TWU is playing a game of chicken -- who cares less about transit riders from the outer boroughs, them or the Governor. The fact is that neither gives a damn, so if a strike gets rolling, it will go on a long time. Bothering the suburban commuters, however, is another matter.
Are the outer boroughs really that irrelevant? After all, a lot of voters live in them.
(Are the outer boroughs really that irrelevant? After all, a lot of voters live in them.)
They're all elderly, and on Medicaid -- or immigrants, young people, the poor, minorities, and other non-entities.
>>> Everyone who matters in this state lives in Manhattan (and can walk) or outside New York City. Want proof? Where are the Mayor, NYC City Council Speaker, Assembly Speaker, and State Senate Minority Leader from? Manhattan. <<<
And you really believe they can carry on the government and business without the many office workers who commute to their jobs from the other boroughs?
Tom
The question is an important one.
Everyone who matters in this state lives in Manhattan (and can walk) or outside New York City. Want proof? Where are the Mayor, NYC City Council Speaker, Assembly Speaker, and State Senate Minority Leader from? Manhattan. Others with power, like the Governor, Senate Majority Leader, etc. are from outside the city. Same with the private sector.
The TWU is playing a game of chicken -- who cares less about transit riders from the outer boroughs, them or the Governor. The fact is that neither gives a damn, so if a strike gets rolling, it will go on a long time. Bothering the suburban commuters, however, is another matter.
One thing the TWU needs to understand is that they are monopoly of an essential service. Striking without an offer on the table that people think of as fair would be the same as Con Edison cutting electric power unless a 25 percent price increase is approved. The TWU will be blamed for the economic damage they do, and the people who lose their jobs.
More importantly, the TWU would be blamed for economic and fiscal problems that have nothing to do with a strike. The winners have taken their winnings and left the city and state (again). The politicians who handed out the favors and haven't had the sense to leave with their beneficiaries are looking for people to absorb blame. Bin Laden was useful, but not enough. They are looking around for people to demonize.
First, let me say that my wife is a member of the UFT so my family unit is also involved in union issues. Thus, I can sympathize with the TWU's decision even if I don't completely support it.
That being said, let me ask this question. If the NYPD and FDNY, whose members are also grossly underpaid, especially given what happened on September 11, were to strike over wages, would Roger Toussaint support them? If the police officer's and firefighter's unions basically said "we have to think about ourselves first and the public's need for security and safety second", would that be a position that you would agree with?
In my view, the role that subway and bus operators play in NYC is virtually as important as those played by the NYPD or FDNY. If any one of them were to be lost for any significant period of time, the city could not function. And that doesn't just mean management of the MTA or NYPD and FDNY; it means the little working guy who can't get from Queens to his job in Brooklyn because there is either no transportation (Transit) or its too dangerous (NYPD/FDNY).
I agree that transit workers need a pay raise. So do the police and firefighters. Still, bringing the city to a halt and hurting many millions of innocent people is not the answer.
Just my opinion.
In some ways, a transit strike would be more disruptive than a police strike. If the NYPD went out on strike, the military could provide at least a semblance of public-safety coverage, at least enough to keep the city from descending into anarchy. With transit, on the other hand, there really aren't any other people who can provide substitute service.
the military could provide at least a semblance of public-safety coverage, at least enough to keep the city from descending into anarchy.
Martial law would have to be declared, because of the Posse Comitatus Act.
That would not be nice.
I thought the governor could send the national guard anywhere he wanted to.
Members of the Army (which includes most National Guard) cannot arrest civilians under ordinary circumstances. They can support police inc ertain ways, but cannot act directly as a police force.
Some scholars believe that at least one of the intents of the Second Amendment is to prevent Federalization of local police.
"Homeland Security Act" ... there isn't a second amendment anymore. You'd THINK that "republicans" would have HOWLED over that. Military courts, the whole nine yards. Mussolini LOVES the GOP. And ALL because INS was underfunded in the first place. Terrorists WON, we scuttled our own Constitution on their behalf. And YES, under the new Shrub Constitution, TWU *CAN* be arrested and held WITHOUT TRIAL by the tribunals for "acts of economic terrorism" if the power that be will it. Brave New World Order.
the military could provide at least a semblance of public-safety coverage, at least enough to keep the city from descending into anarchy.
Martial law would have to be declared, because of the Posse Comitatus Act.
That would not be nice.
It wouldn't be nice, but it wouldn't be the end of the world either. Any martial law declaration would last only as long as the strike itself. In addition, only police coverage would be affected. The courts and the rest of the criminal justice system would operate normally; it's not as if turnstile-jumpers would be hauled before secret military tribunals and dragged off to Guantanamo.*
* = which actually doesn't sound half bad
Hey, W is working towards that every day!
Ya got that right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Would the National Guard (non Federalized) be barred by the Posse Comitatus Act in the event of a police strike? The National Guard was (and may still be) on duty in civilian locations after 9/11. And since the National Guard is under state, not federal control, that may be a reason it could be called up.
That's all changed ...
Homeland Security Act (Adobe PDF file)
Add "Patriot Act", add euphemisms of your choice, and kiss your nation goodbye ... the corporate takeover IS complete.
Well, that document expressly reinaffirms the Congress' intent in upholding Posse Comitatus.
Let's see if Bush gets Congress to call a subway strike an insurrection
The REALITY is different. Trent Lott and the other "leaders" read what they passed in a completely different way NOW ... unlike most folks, I actually sit through CSPAN and "newsie" type things having spent FAR more time in THAT "industry" than handle time on subway cars ...
If you THINK about it, why wasn't CIA and FBI folded into "Homeland Security" and yet the CHICKEN INSPECTORS WERE? Oh, so many questions of value subsumed by Winona Ryder's bigtime heist. :)
Let's see what happens IF there is a transit strike. NYS Police and the Natural Guard will be sent in, according to our NBC affiliate, WNYT-13 as of 11 last night. Arrests of transit employees was mentioned as a possible outcome, and civil disobedience "will be handled under military rules as a matter of national security - these people are an 'essential service'" ... that's what MTA's uberboss is selling *US* up here ... that "those people will be brought to justice" ... really PYTHED ME ARF hearing that ...
When's KEN LAY going to do a perp walk while we're at it? The terrorists intended to "take out our economy" ... not realizing that we have REPUBLICANS to do that. :(
why wasn't CIA and FBI folded into "Homeland Security" and yet the CHICKEN INSPECTORS WERE? [...] When's KEN LAY going to do a perp walk
I'm beginning to detect a pattern here...
Heh. Nobody in here but us chickens. :)
Do you realize that if you break a law, damage a resource considered important to the economy, and it LOOKS like you did it to coerce a civilian, you come under the Act (notice I capitalized it?) Yikes!!
Yep ... scr00 "Papa Doc" ... like they said about Saddam, "his SON is even MORE nuts" ... yep ... what HITLER couldn't do, we just VOTED for Shrub to continue ... I'm proud *NOT* to be a republican today. :)
But yeah, serious stuff ... *SO* glad our "media" was as usual, owned and operated. Like I've said, what the terrorists COULDN'T do, the REPUBLICANS cheerily did FOR THEM ... SOVIET RUSSIA was an improvement after the bill of goods we just bought. They can come and kill me, I don't care. The economy sucks, I can barely pay my health insurance OR my mortgage ... 29 cents for a bullet would shut me up, and thus people can argue over the 142's while we've given up our nation to Enron and CSX. Ooooo-hah ...
The "Posse Comitatus Act" has been superceded by the "Homeland Security Act" ... it's NO LONGER IN EFFECT. THAT is why DICK ARMEY is now with the ACLU. Martial Law is in effect as of the passage of that bill. The Constitution has been "suspended." While folks were debating the R142's, the fascists have performed a coup d'etat. But nobody cares. But "Posse Comitatus" is dead.
With transit, on the other hand, there really aren't any other people who can provide substitute service.
How long does it take to teach someone to operate a subway train?
Longer than it takes to train an Air Traffic Controler?
The military has Air Traffic Controllers.
Without a lengthy response....
I was one of the people in favor of waiting and going Via PERB like the FD, PD and teachers did. As one of the issues is the HBT and that is in a deficit mode waiting too long is not an option without totally undercutting the unions position on that issue. They would have to raise copayments in the hope of keeping them the same.
I would add teachers to the essential list too. They are the primary baby sitter for many working families.
>>>>I would add teachers to the essential list too. They are the primary baby sitter for many working families.<<<<
True, and opening schools 2 hours later, in the event of a transit strike, is not going to help working parents at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
Please explain your acronyms: PERB/HBT.
Is this some sort of mediation as I was wondering about in another post?
John
PERB=Public Employment Relations Board, a mediation thingy.
HBT=Health Benefit Trust, their corruption ridden health plan.
Peace,
ANDEE
6926-30 and 7091-95 are preparing for #5 service. What trainset # would this be Widecab5? Trainset #28?
Still watching for deliveries... Nothing new on this front.
-Stef
I have also been keeping track of it. It should be trainset # 30. There are also 4 more sets in testing now.
CP came & went last night with nothing for NYC Subway. Seem to be shipping M-7s right now.
6926-6930 and 7091-7095 would be Trainset #29. Leaving 8 (or maybe 11?) more to go.
Through December 4, 2002 on the 5:
280 Am R-142
6701-6805, 6816-6875, 6916-6920, 6951-6960, 6971-6980, 6991-7040, 7051-7090 (5-car unitized).
Used on OPTO.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thank You very much for that info.
-Stef
I read in the Times that the average worker makes $44,000, which I thought sounded really high, given that it's twice what I make. I was curious as to how this is broken down between different jobs: how much does the average token booth person make, the average train operator, maintenance worker, etc.? Thanks.
Where do you live? That's equivalent to $25,000 in the Midwest, and the average transit worker has fairly high longevity, which he or she needs, due to the experience required to do those jobs.
I live in Manhattan (and I know I make nothing) but still $44K sounds high. That's why I wanted to know what different jobs pay, or what they start at, etc.
How can you afford Manhattan on that salary?
after 3 years a station agenst amkes 20.0125 per hour . I wish to remind you:
1= we must stay in the booth until relieved.
2- we cannot leave for a bathroom or coffee break
3- we are not guaranteed a lunch break
4= no holidays unless you have the seniority to get a job with holidays off or a holiday falls on yoru regular days off (Ie- you are off Tuesdaya dn Wednedsay and the holiday falls ona Tuesday or Wednesday.)
5- if you are a lceaner and it snows 3 or more inches and it is your day off, you must come to work anyway.
6- If Transit is short of help you may be forced to stay past your ending time.
7- Many booths have no heat or no air conditioning
8- many booths are infested with pests of the crawling or rodent type.
9- If a customer pulls a fast one such as pcoketing a token or large bill and we fall for it, w emust pay the shortage. To prove we are right, we have to count the money and tokens while still waiting on other customers and hope the lien does nto cruicify us.
Any job's salary is based on environemntal factors as well as specialized skills. S/As must be speedy and accurate (bopth of which are learned on the job.)
after 3 years a station agenst makes 20.0125 per hour . I wish to remind you:
1= we must stay in the booth until relieved.
2- we cannot leave for a bathroom or coffee break
3- we are not guaranteed a lunch break
4= no holidays unless you have the seniority to get a job with holidays off or a holiday falls on yoru regular days off (Ie- you are off Tuesdaya dn Wednedsay and the holiday falls ona Tuesday or Wednesday.)
5- if you are a lceaner and it snows 3 or more inches and it is your day off, you must come to work anyway.
6- If Transit is short of help you may be forced to stay past your ending time.
7- Many booths have no heat or no air conditioning
8- many booths are infested with pests of the crawling or rodent type.
9- If a customer pulls a fast one such as pcoketing a token or large bill and we fall for it, w emust pay the shortage. To prove we are right, we have to count the money and tokens while still waiting on other customers and hope the lien does nto cruicify us.
Any job's salary is based on environemntal factors as well as specialized skills. S/As must be speedy and accurate (bopth of which are learned on the job.)
Oh, please. It's still a ludicrously high-paying job for the type of work involved. Figure it this way - a cashier in a convenience store has to deal with most of the same things, has to face irate customers without the protection of an armored booth, AND is lucky if he or she makes eight bucks an hour. Do you really think those cashiers, and other similarly struggling working people, are going to be especially sympathetic to the TWU when they have to deal with the huge inconveniences a strike will cause? Do you want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
Plus the average cashier does not recieve $10,000 a year in additial health, vision, dental bennifits and vacation and sick days.
"If Transit is short of help you may be forced to stay past your ending time"
This is with any job. In many jobs where employees are salaried workers they don't get overtime pay including some jobs with NYC
"no holidays unless you have the seniority to get a job with holidays off or a holiday falls on yoru regular days off (Ie- you are off Tuesdaya dn Wednedsay and the holiday falls ona Tuesday or Wednesday"
You knew you were takign a job with a 24/7 365 business.
Plus in the case of station agents, the job is obsolete. No longer needed. IF I were the TWU I would be looking for retraining monies for displaced station agents and guarenteed jobs that would allow them to take higher paying jobs within the TA. MVM's are a network of windows NT computers. A skilled certified techician that has experiece with win nt/2000, lan technologies, on a large distributed network such at NYCT can earn $75-100k in the private sector. The TA needs more MVM maintainers and technicians and less sit in the booths station agents. This is a great opurtunity for the motivated SA to make real money
U
"Plus in the case of station agents, the job is obsolete. No longer needed. IF I were the TWU I would be looking for retraining monies for displaced station agents and guarenteed jobs that would allow them to take higher paying jobs within the TA. MVM's are a network of windows NT computers. A skilled certified techician that has experiece with win nt/2000, lan technologies, on a large distributed network such at NYCT can earn $75-100k in the private sector. The TA needs more MVM maintainers and technicians and less sit in the booths station agents. This is a great opurtunity for the motivated SA to make real money"
Without being disrespectful to tation agents, I think there is much merit to your post. TWU should focus on helping its members successfully tackle higher-skill jobs, and in this way the union will not have to spend as much in the way of resources fighting for obsolete jobs.
(TWU should focus on helping its members successfully tackle higher-skill jobs)
One problem is that those public employees whose agencies substantially improved their performance over the past decade -- ie. transit and police -- do no feel they have received a gain in either respect or pay. The government hands out money to those with clout in good times, and cuts everyone in bad times. And here, it still hands out money to those with clout (65,000 new subsidized middle income housing units -- who'll get them?) in good times.
"Plus in the case of station agents, the job is obsolete. No longer needed. IF I were the TWU I would be looking for retraining monies for displaced station agents and guarenteed jobs that would allow them to take higher paying jobs within the TA. MVM's are a network of windows NT computers. A skilled certified techician that has experiece with win nt/2000, lan technologies, on a large distributed network such at NYCT can earn $75-100k in the private sector. The TA needs more MVM maintainers and technicians and less sit in the booths station agents. This is a great opurtunity for the motivated SA to make real money"
Without being disrespectful to station agents, I think there is much merit to your post. TWU should focus on helping its members successfully tackle higher-skill jobs, and in this way the union will not have to spend as much in the way of resources fighting for obsolete jobs.
There is no upgrade program for S/As. Cleaners, car cleaners have such a program but not S/As. Also- computer positions require a B.S. in the field plus experience so we woudl nto qualify. Also- they class most jpobs as safety sensitive meaning older workers woudl be disqualified based on bogus medical
Like I said these are the issues the union should be tackling
The writing is on the wall that most station agents will be toast pretty soon.
Computer support and maintance positions rarely require B.S. Degrees in most compaies or even the city of NY
No degree required, unless you're going into programming. You can get certified in computer and networking technologies simply by having a good work ethinc, common sense, and knowing what an IP address represents.
$40,000+/yr without a college degree and people are complaining?
-Hank
I left out the training, which can run you $10,000 or more, plus the test fees.
-Hank
A better comparison is a Bank Teller.
Bank tellers make on average between $8-$16 h an hour
NJ turnpike toll collectors make between $8 and $15 an hour
Fed EX delivery people make between $10-$15 an hour
-they are required to carry heavy packages and must deliver packages in a set time phrame. Must deal with heavy traffic especilly in manhattan. Must climb steps.
Token boothe clerks make $20 an hour and are not happy. Come on!!
The Job is obsolete.
NJ turnpike toll collectors make between $8 and $15 an hour...Token boothe clerks make $20 an hour and are not happy. Come on!!
The Job is obsolete.
Then it stands to reason that the toll collectors are also obsolete. Since toll collectors and token clerks are doing essentially the same thing - selling access to a transportation network - then shouldn't they get the SAME pay?
What bank in NYC pays $8?
As a brand new teller in 1983, I was making $8.50/hr.
In 1983 dollars
Bank tellers make on average between $8-$16 h an hour and must were shirt and tie for men and business atire for women
NJ turnpike toll collectors make between $8 and $15 an hour
Fed EX delivery people make between $10-$15 an hour
-they are required to carry heavy packages and must deliver packages in a set time phrame. Must deal with heavy traffic especilly in manhattan. Must climb steps.
Token boothe clerks make $20 an hour and are not happy. Come on!!
The Job is obsolete.
"Fed EX delivery people make between $10-$15 an hour
-they are required to carry heavy packages and must deliver packages in a set time phrame. Must deal with heavy traffic especilly in manhattan. Must climb steps. "
Is the weight limit for a single package still 70 lbs? Or is it up to 150 lbs? With or without a hand truck or dolly, that's a tough job.
I would have to ask my cousin for specifics.
One thing I do know if you go in and there is no work they send you home without a fulls day pay
Really? Wow, not good.
I'll have to ask a friend of mine who worked in the Denver hub once upon a time. Se was hourly, but never experienced that.
A better comparison is a Bank Teller.
I would imagine that a bank teller handles far more money per shift than a station agent. As pointed out elsewhere, they make quite a bit less money than station agents.
You'll also notice that banks have fewer tellers on duty today than they did years ago, given the spread of ATM's. Many of those who remain on duty probably are retained mainly because ATM's cannot handle all transactions. The subway, in contrast, keeps station agents on duty in all stations 24/7 even though MVM's can do everything they do, and better.
even though MVM's can do everything they do, and better.
That used to be true, but then the MTA removed the trade-in feature on the MVM.
MVM can communicate with the consumer in many languages
Accepts credit card and debit card as payment
Gives receipts which many people can use on expense reports
Quicker - It takes me 30 sec credit card autorization and all to buy a metrocard
An soon MVM will have travel directions including how i get to landmark A or queens center mall
I only use station agents to ask for maps.
Last time I was in New York (Manhattan) I visited three stations before I found one that either an attendant or an operational MVM. What's up with that?
As a regular rider of the system I have NEVER experienced something like this. What 3 stations, may I ask.
(note: another new handle/troll)
Peace,
ANDEE
What 3 places?
If a customer knows how to use a MVM, I'd say it would be a close tie to see who is faster.
$20 x 40 x 52 = $42K!!!
After only 3 years? With no education? And they think an 8% raise per annum is fair?
Okay, here's the bottom line. Cleaners make about $18 - $19 per hour. Lots of money to sweep and mop subway cars. Last week, the TA had a PLAN IV due tot he snow storm. Cleaners (male & female) had to walk through tunnels, with 600 volt 3rd rails, with moving trains, with rodents, with homeless derelicts, with puddles of slime and muck, just to get to those trains. Lots of you wouldn't do that for $18 and hour or $28 an hour.
The TA has postings all the time for maintainer jobs that require:
Working on live, active tracks.
Working nights.
Working weekends.
Working holidays.
Working without clean toilet of lunch facilities.
It the prospect of $22 per hour to start entrigues you, and you don't mind the above, then just apply.
The jobs do not sound glamorous but they are paying alot more then many people make and putting roofs over peoples heads
These jobs pay down right excelent rates for the level of skills required. My great grandfather was a track cleaner and I have heard stories of the rats. He made sure all his children stayed in school so that they would have it better then he had
The realities of the world is that if you want to work glamorous clean jobs you need to work hard learning your ABC's and 123's.
Its no picnicbut many jobs pay far less
Burger flipper
Worker at the GAP, sears, macy's
secutity
national park service
FBI
bank teller
hotel housekeeping
CBS news associate
And I say again, if the pay seems so out of proportion to the skills required, apply.
Fortunitly I have developed a quite marketable skill set and earn a very good living.
Fortunitly I have developed a quite marketable skill set and earn a very good living.
So then, you *are* among the rich whom we should increase the taxes on!?
Elias
Not rich I make enough to pay my bills and I am able to find work in a variety of feilds.
I don't know how much more you can raise my tax's. Being single I already pay nearly 50% of my wages in taxes.
There is this misnoma that wealthy people (which I am not) don't pay thier fair share of taxes. In fact people making over $100k (once again this does not include me) pay nearly 3/4 of all taxes paid in this country.
If anyone on this board knows anyone who makes less then $25,000 and has kids I urge them to go to take advantage of free tax preparation provided by volunteers by the IRS and have tehm help you claim the EARN INCOME TAX CREDIT. There was something like $20 million dollars in federal dollars earned by NYC residents that was not claimed last year
If anyone on this board knows anyone who makes less then $25,000 and has kids I urge them to go to take advantage of free tax preparation provided by volunteers by the IRS and have tehm help you claim the EARN INCOME TAX CREDIT. There was something like $20 million dollars in federal dollars earned by NYC residents that was not claimed last year
Some years back, concerned about fraudulent claims for the Earned Income Tax Credit, the IRS began requiring claimants to provide Social Security Numbers for the children. Tens of thousands of "children" mysteriously "disappeared" the following year.
Yep.
I volunteered on year in college. You would not believe what people wanted me to put down on their returns.
Do us all a afavor ! Help ypur company's bottom line- Tell your boss you'll do the work of your entire departmenmt and you'll do it with no pay raise and by gettinhg no lunch or breaks and no holidays and you'll be in with 5 feet of snow too. Also tell your boss you'll replace the receptionists and secretaries since you can type.
Yes- we knew what we were getting in to.
"Also tell your boss you'll replace the receptionists and secretaries since you can type"
receptionists and secretaries do not exist except for VP's at most companies. Microsoft word and voicemail replaced most 20 years ago
"Also tell your boss you'll replace the receptionists and secretaries since you can type"
receptionists and secretaries do not exist except for VP's at most companies. Microsoft word and voicemail replaced most 20 years ago
wake up and smell the coffee big guy!!!!
Dude, tell ya what.
Why don't you work in the computer graphics industry in NY, only to be told one day your job is safe. The very next day, you are out the door and the work is outsourced to.....INDIA!!!!!!!
Well, guess what. Those people who got laid off have no union, no recourse. Its called moving on. Technology and cost structures and goals, etc. change all the time. There are departmental shifts, elimination of jobs, merging of job qualifications and skill sets, etc.
Its called change. And the TWU wants to eliminate technology so we can all suffer while some nasty jerk like Stef counts out coins? Get a grip. Go to any European country and practically every system is automated. Russia and Sweden are the only places I have been with ticket taking clerks (oh yes Toronto and Montreal too)...
Hey union! Get over it. You are not exempt from technology changes. Deal with it.
>>>....while some nasty jerk like Stef counts out coins? Get a grip.<<<
Stef is not a nasty jerk. Having met him I know that. It's you who are the nasty jerk.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why Don't those people couputer graphics unionize? Stupid pride and arrogance. To avoid the coming corporate police state, colleges had better start educating their students about the inescapable applicability of moral principles to economics and stop teaching arrogance to law and business students and grade schools better get the funding necessary to teach their students how to spell.
... some nasty jerk like Stef ...
Whoa, just one minute here! My views may be a lot more closely aligned with yours than with Stef's on the necessity of his job in the grand scheme of things (sorry Stef), but I can also tell you that he is a dedicated, hard-working employee of Transit who does that job well and also happens to be a pretty nice guy off the job. That remark was a personal attack and totally uncalled-for. If you are as educated as you claim to be you should be able to make your points without resorting to that kind of comment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why don't you work in the computer graphics industry in NY, only to be told one day your job is safe. The very next day, you are out the door and the work is outsourced to.....INDIA!!!!!!!
Been there, done that. Saw the writing on the wall and quit to take a job as a C/R. Boss begged me not to go - offered me raises and other such (that he couldn't do before). Six months after I left, the company went out of business, because they couldn't afford the four people it would have taken to replace me.
"Cleaners (male & female) had to walk through tunnels, with 600 volt 3rd rails, with moving trains, with rodents, with homeless derelicts, with puddles of slime and muck, just to get to those trains. Lots of you wouldn't do that for $18 and hour or $28 an hour."
The rodents will treat you better than the vagrants will.
Rats may live in filth but they don't smell like they've passed away - many weeks ago. Ride the 5:14 A train out of Far rockaway any AM and see what I mean.
I believe you. I've seen it.
I tip my hat to the transit professionals who not only deal with it, but still look after these people like the (miserable, ungrateful, etc.) human beings that they are.
That would be BU #728 as seen at the Malbone Street wreck.
wayne
Ozone Park wreck. You fell for the cover story.
Is that Selkirk in the hat? Did you get BingBong to take that for you?
Paul: Great picture. So that's what really happened to the Malbone Street Train and while the legal actions where so abruptly halted.
Maybe Luciano is in the tunnel too, along with Judge Crater and Jimmy Hoffa.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Well, now the entire story is coming out.
The IND loaned something like 120 R4s (I think they were) for use on the 4th Avenue Local in order to expand service to Astoria. With a number of the new R10s out of service for extended performance testing the IND realized they didn't have enough equipment to open 76th Street.
They received a ruling from the Corporation Counsel that the prohibition on wooden equipment in the subway applied only to the systems "extant at the time of prohibition," that is, the IRT and BMT, but that this didn't apply to the IND.
If the IND motorman had been better trained in the particular lapping system of the former elevated cars, this further tragedy might not have happened and there wouldn't have been the need for a six-decade-long coverup.
ROTFLMAO
Steve: Did you ever get the pictures developed that you took on Sub-talk Day at Branford? I would like to get a few from you. Please contact me at
RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Not yet. As soon as I do, I will let you know.
And Elvis and Amelia Earhart.
You forgot Jimmy Hoffa. That Meadowlands rumor is just that!
ROTFLMAO!
HaHaHa, thanks Paul, best laugh I had all week.
Peace,
ANDEE
YES!!! We passed that train on the Redbird trip. (As I said before, we passed through the station on the express track.)
Very nice. BTW, what is a BRT gate car "doing" on an IND line?
I explained the whole thing here.
That was the missing element in why 76th St. was sealed--a motive!
Is that BMTMan in the corner?
Guilty! I was a MUCH younger man then....:)
(bad case of getting some 'handle time')
The air down there must be pretty good considering the motorman of that train was still ON THAT TRAIN nearly 60 years after 76th Street was built. But he does look kind of short .... I guess a poor diet would do that to you over a 60 year period.
--Mark
Are you sure he's not the tour guide? And wondering why no one is showing up considering how much we've talked about this on SubTalk? ;-)
There has been some speculation of what the MTA was looking for as a condition of the "productivity increase".
According to today's NY Times, what the MTA wants is the TWU to agree to certain rule changes in return for the productivity raise. There is no mention that the productivity increase would actually have to happen for the raise, just that the union doesn't block the rules changes.
Rules changes mentioned in the Times were to allow cleaners to also change light bulbs and do painting.
This may or may not be the MTA's actual bargaining position, but it's what is in today's Times.
They want these changes BUT will not pay for them. To get the productivity they want additional stuff.
In the case of RTO they want most of the stuff now so there is nothing left to trade for productivity raises even if we wanted to
...for the strike vote. I have seen no numbers in this regard.
Peace,
ANDEE
One account was 12K for both combined. I was at the AM and there were 2-2.5K there. There were more at the PM but i doubt that many more to make the 12.
So, what you're saying is 1/3 of the membership voted.
Peace,
ANDEE
that is what they said, i think more like 10% it was a voice vote
Why not have the private bus companies (Green Bus Lines, Queens Surface, Jamaica, Triboro Coach, etc.) run a few trunk lines in Manhattan, and use the strikers fines to pay the overtime wages of the private sector drivers? They could even presumably use MTA busses, couldn't they?
Because they are the same union - SUPRISE!
We did not run extra busses to screw them so they wont to screw us.
I don't understand how unions work, but they sure don't make sense to me.
Well when the privat lines were on strike the Ma wanted to run NYCTA buses on those routes. The NYCT buses drivers said sure but we will not work OT to do it so the plan was dropped.
A strike does not work if someone else comes in and does your job, that is not hard to understand. Plus we are all in the same Union so having a Union scab itself is not going to happen.
It's not your job that's being done if another company serves the customers. If you object to another company getting the business, then you are not striking against your employer; you are striking against the customers.
Piss off enough customers, and the state could repeal the Taylor Law, which would reinstate the law as it stood before on the subject of public employee unions. The Taylor Law has been around so long that most people forget that before the TL was adopted, public employees were not allowed to bargain collectively.
Ask the GOP. They'll tell you that all you have to do to eliminate strikes when contracts expire is to eliminate contracts.
Bring back Condon. Threaten people with firing every time they want a raise.
They can get all the replacement bus service they want just it will not be TWU 100 members doing it in meaningful numbers.
extra Bx29 service was run in the Bronx for a while for the QBx1 even some artics were used.
NYCTA and the privates are under separate contracts (if not separate unions). Subway and bus employees are both NYCTA and under the same contract. Now, is it legal for the NYCTA managers to authorize a private to operate city buses during the strike? I would think it is.
NYCTA, Queens Surface, Jamaica Bus Lines & Triboro are all in the same union[TWU].
Heck. They could disband the TA and offer the routes for sale to the highest bidder -- if anyone would buy such money losers. There's no law that says that the legislature has to keep the TA in business. All that would be required to make a route auction work is to let the bidders set their own fares. It's just a matter of politics.
This Mayor isn't going to have anything to do with that.
He wants the bus business to go away, so he'll let the TA deal with THEIR problem.
This would be more appropiate on Bustalk but I'll take a shot at it. Should a work stoppage occur, DON'T cont on the privates running in Manhattan; they could barely keep up on their own routes plus they won't have enough buses to cover the huge amount of passengers. The best solution to cover the subways would be dollar vans, taxis and car pools. Even though the NYCT & Queens privates[not Green Bus] are TWU, I don't think they interchange management.
Here's one to shake the rocks ... just got an email from a friend of mine at Division of the Budget, a former resident at Bay Parkway who told me that one of the "reorganization plans" for the MTA for the coming fiscal year is to reduce the West End (Dubya train) and the Sea Beach (En train) to become SHUTTLES like the Franklin from their respective home lines on the fourth avenue (R train) on a PERMANENT basis (including RUSH HOUR) feeding an R train that would operate as an EXPRESS ...
EARLY conjecture, but DOB is considering MASSIVE cuts in train service (N would run from where it is now to platform at 59 St, while W's would termiante at 36 St, rush hours included) leaving the R train as the SOLE service as a Broadway local. Q trains would serve (Brighton) as the SOLE express service along with similar cutbacks in other boroughs in order to meet a "zero growth MTA budget" ... part of a plan to reduce the MTA workforce by 15% ... dunno HOW they expect this, but such is the word from the Paturkey to Division of the Budget, "work it out."
HOPE it ain't true ... but the West End and the Sea Beach may be DEAD as of the coming year's budget ...
WHAT THE F????!!! Say it ain't so, Unca Kev! :(
Just got an email from one of my buddies at DOB ... and while NOTHING is set in STONE yet, they were asked to work up the "cost savings" on such a plan. For anyone who DOESN'T understand the political sausage-making (I know you do, Doug) this is JUST a "what if, what can we save" exercise ... but YES, DOB was asked to "work the numbers" on how much it could save. To the BRUNO kids, the N and the W are "we did a Franklin shuttle, right? We did a Culver, right? It saved MONEY, right? Can we do this TOO, right?" Unca Dougie ... you KNOW what "legislative aides" will do if commanded, right?
Is it REAL? *****NO***** ... after all, we have to wait for "State of the State" to find out what the numbers are. We then have to wait one WEEK *after* state of the State for the "budget message" and "budget school" (correct me if I'm worong) and *****THEN***** and ONLY then will we find out what is PROPOSED as reality ... I'm sure you've been with the show long enough to know how to read the "line items." But YEAH, they *HAVE* been asked to "work it up" ... and given that us New Yorkers STILL haven't been given the TRUTH, anything's possible. You know the games, AND THE POSTURING of Bruno and his Smallbany Orchestra. But that's what they've been told, and MTA was OFFICIALLY kept in the dark as to this "study." So is Don Bruno. :(
But yeah, that's a plan they're SERIOUSLY considering - my source is WAY up there in "adminiswigdom" ... and THEY are not a "happy camper" as someone FROM that area ... she's already QUIT the state, so I can hint at the gender of who told me, since women in republican REGIMES *must* wear their burkha ... she's VERY unhappy and don't give a qwap anymore.
Sounds like one of those schemes to scare the populace, make the employees accept a smaller contract and the riders accept a bigger fare hike.
Ya NEVER know what JOE BRUNO has in mind - after all, he got his Penis on the Hudson (Amtrak Rensselaer), and has just STOLEN New York City's "downtown Enterprise Zone (WTC DID NOT HAPPEN!!!)" for himself and WAL*MART, he's just signed himself a SECOND "Joe Bruno Saratoga Amtrak Station" and he's already signed HIMSELF the "Joe Bruno BASEBALL STAIUM" and much more his wittwe ego has named for HIMSELF in OTHER largesse ... meanwhile YOUR taxes went up, and JOE BRUNO demands *MORE* from the city while TWU gets NOTHING ... All to make him even MORE popular in his Joe Bruno NYC SUCKS Trailer Park in "Brunswick, NY" where he has a federally subsidized "farm" paid for by Tokyo Electric Corp (TEC) ... ayup ...
TWU can go to hell, no? :(
Just wait until you see the bus cuts. The private lines could be cut in half and the express bus system could be partially sold for profit. As for trains, watch how express service will become a WEEKDAY ONLY treat and lines such as the Z and 9 will "temporarily" disappear.
The axe is falling. We can pay a lot now...or too much later.
Where do I go to support having the 9 disappear???!?!?! That could almost make me a Republican!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd support getting rid of skip stop sevice on the 9 however if that is gone it is likely that the Z would be cut as well. Hey, they could get drastic & cut the peak express service on the Broadway el or other things.
Hey, if they're gonna get rid of skip-stop with the 9, they should replace it with some kind of express service.....
I suppose so but people have said time & time that a <1> peak direction express wouldn't work and I have my doubts as well but if it is done with "thorough" planning, it could work. What destroys it chances of being created is that it is not a 3 track line btw 157 & Dyckman Sts, which in turn would save very little time & possibly cause bunching but I say there's a possibility it can be done.
It was done in the 50s and 60s with the thru Rxpress(1) exp 96-157 and Dyckman to 242nd
No, they should replace it with inverse express service. A typical express service gives more service to the end of the line by having some trains bypass lesser-used intermediate stops. Ridership patterns on the 1/9 don't support that sort of service -- it's the intermediate stops, particularly south of 137th, that are much busier than the ones at the end of the line. By inverse express, I'm referring to an arrangement that gives the extra service to the stations further from the end of the line -- in other words, short-turn some trains at 137th or Dyckman so that the busiest part of the line can get the service it needs without having to worry about terminal capacities or overserving the north end of the line.
With such a setup, it might be worth considering sending some through trains express between 137th and 96th -- but whatever is done, there shouldn't be more service at 242nd than at 116th.
This is just your friendly reminder of the day that, in some circumstances, running all trains local will get people to their destinations sooner than running half of them express.
That's an idea that I came up with a couple of weeks ago that I mentioned here on Subtalk.Run the 1 as a peak direction express from 157-96 Sts. toward SF in the morning,toward 242 in the evening and have the 9 serve stations from 145-103rd Sts. and end at Dyckman St instead of at 242St.The 9 would still continue to run rush hours only of course but without that pathetic skip stop service.
I'd support getting rid of skip stop sevice on the 9 however if that is gone it is likely that the Z would be cut as well.
The 1/9 and the J/Z are completely different situations - the 1/9 loses the average rider time - the only people really benefitted are thos who use 242nd St VCP (of whom there are comparatively few); the J/Z on the other hand benefits most those at the two Jamaica stations and, more importantly, gives a competitive timing compared to the E train to Downtown. Abolishing the 9 would benefit the subway. Abolishing the Z would mean chaos on Queens Boulevard.
"Abolishing the Z would mean chaos on Queens Boulevard."
Slight exaggeration. The Z takes 46 minutes and the all-stop J takes 51 to Broad St. The extra 5 minutes won't cause mass desertions to a much more crowded line.
On the other hand, abolishing the Z won't save a single penny either. 12 J trains cost just as much to run as 6 Zs and 6 Js. It might even cost money by adding 5 minutes to the length of the runs. What they could do (not my recommendation) would be 5 Js and Zs per hour instead of 6.
Slight exaggeration. The Z takes 46 minutes and the all-stop J takes 51 to Broad St.
No exaggeration at all. The E train takes 46 minutes Parsons to Chambers, the J/Z takes 44 minutes Parsons to Chambers, the J local takes 49 minutes Parsons to Chambers. It may only be a five minute difference, but it is five minutes enough to change which train is the fastest. Currently it makes obvious sense for those headed Downtown to ride the J/Z, but if skip-stop were abolished, the horrible overcrowded E train would become the more obvious option.
"The E train takes 46 minutes Parsons to Chambers, the J/Z takes 44 minutes Parsons to Chambers"
For the next 5 to 10 years the center of gravity of downtown employment is pretty far east and south. Also, the J/Z has several stops downtown, the E only has 1. The J/Z will be a much shorter walk than the E for most downtown workers. The only real exceptions are the World Financial Center and buildings right near Broadway and Vesey like the Woolworth Building. All the big buildings on Wall St, Water St, and near Bowling Green are considerably shorter walks from the J/Z.
I see Fred has not seen this yet
You're late my friend. I saw this two days ago and spent a whole fulminating about this sad turn of events. So far it is just a rumor but I certainly wish someone would check out its validity. Something has to be up.
I always knew they should turn the Sea Beach into a Light rail line
You're right, the E would be the riders choice simply b/c it is express from Union Tpke to Queens Plaza while the J/Z has skip stop and is express from Myrtle to Marcy Av. I'd rather the J/Z since you have a FAR better chance of getting a seat and the 5 minute difference CAN make a difference if you go for a connecting train. The J would be even faster if it were not for the S curves and the slow poke trek across the Willy-B.
The J would be even faster if it were not for the S curves and the slow poke trek across the Willy-B.
Why is the Willy B so slow? Is it that the trains are too heavy?
"Why is the Willy B so slow? Is it that the trains are too heavy?"
My personal guess is that whenever a location has had a really bad accident they put on timers like crazy. That way, there will NEVER EVER be an accident again in that location.
Definitely that happened after the Union Square accident, and after a track worker was killed on the uptown express track at Astor Place.
There was a collision on the bridge in the early nineties, IIRC.
Isn't the answer to one train giving another train a tap up the rear proper block signalling not a heap of timers? One of the things I most dislike about the NYCTA and to a slightly lesser extent LT is their idea that timers solve everything.
"Isn't the answer to one train giving another train a tap up the rear proper block signalling not a heap of timers?"
Yes, but I think their (dubious) reasoning is as follows. By 2030 all the signaling will be replaced with new CBTC technology, so let's not invest money in an interim system.
By the way, the "tap" on the WB did kill the T/O.
Yet signal replacement projects are well under way on the West End and Lower White Plains Road lines.
"Yet signal replacement projects are well under way on the West End and Lower White Plains Road lines."
Let's hope that when the signals are replaced the timers are gone.
I honestly don't see the problem with timers.
Timers belong on curves, downgrades, and the like. Timers tend to be found on curves, downgrades, and the like. There are exceptions elsewhere, but do West End and Lower White Plains Road have any gratuitous timers?
Now, some timers do appear to the untrained eye (i.e., mine) to be unnecessarily restrictive; perhaps some of them could be loosened up a bit.
"I honestly don't see the problem with timers."
Try the southbound 4/5 express track at 23rd St. Trains start to slow down dramatically there in anticipation of the switch just north of 14th. Trains only need to slow down if the switch is set to put trains onto the local track. Before the fatal accident, trains continued at high speed into the station, which is safe.
A proper signaling system would allow trains to proceed rapidly into the station as long as the switch is set to go straight. If the switch is set to switch over to the local track, only then is it appropriate to slow down the train at 23rd St.
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that exactly what wheel detectors do? They shouldn't be active if the switch is set to go straight.
I don't know the technical issues. All I know is that every southbound express has slowed down unnecessarily for over 10 years now, because of a timer.
Maybe there's a simple way for NYCT to activate that timer only when the switch is set. If so, they haven't done it.
I rarely ride the Lex, and when I do it's usually northbound (I'm not sure why, but that's the way it's worked out). I'll try to squeeze in a southbound ride on a Redbird before it's too late so I can see what's going on.
I thought the Union Square incident was exactly what led to the introduction of the wheel detector, and wheel detectors can be set to be active only for diverging moves.
I've ridden dozens if not hundreds of Lex expresses from 42nd to 14th since the accident, and they always slow down around around the south end of the 23rd St station. Often the T/O actually accelerates again after passing the timer and comes into the station quite quickly.
You often can't observe the phenomenon in either rush hour, because the train gets a red signal anyway due to the train right in front of it.
I don't doubt you for a minute -- I just want to see it for myself, if nothing else to see what sort of time control is in place (grade timers and wheel detectors are easy distinguish if you know what to look for, but it doesn't sound like you do). Besides, with Redbirds disappearing fast, it wouldn't be a bad idea anyway to get in my last southbound ride at the window soon.
There is a grade timer (or a sequence of grade timers) that has a similar effect on the SB 2/3 just south of 50th. I don't know what purpose it serves, but others here have reported that it's been there for decades, at least. It doesn't force trains to a very low speed, but given that expresses typically approach that timer in the high 40's, the effect is quite noticeable. AFAIK, it's the only sequence of timers on the line from 96th to Chambers. (South of Chambers there are timers, of course, but the line there is twisty.)
it is amazing there was a time wehn they charged a nickel and had subways, els and there were express trains all over. now they want to cut service and raise the fairs. who knows they come up with a budget that runs no trains and will charge $5.00 just to say a subway once ran under your feet. something is way out of balance
"it is amazing there was a time wehn they charged a nickel and had subways, els and there were express trains all over"
- A nickel in 1920 was worth more than $1.04 (average current fare per ride) is worth now, and a far higher proportion of a working class person's total pay.
- Transit workers were extremely poorly paid then. We can disagree about how well they are paid now, but they are better off than they were in 1920.
The R would operate as a 4th Avenue Express, fed by West end and Sea Beach shuttles?? What would provide 4th Ave. local service? Sounds awfully fishy to me. Was service cut back this severely during the fiscal crisis of the late 70s?
And what train will provide Astoria service with both the N and the W confined to Brooklyn? The Q? Service couldn't have been cut back this severely in the mid-70s. They eliminated the EE, the Culver SS, full-time GG service from Forest Hills and late night N and 6 service in Manhattan. This is far more severe.
Astoria?
Where's that?
Its a neighborhood in northwestern Queens north of Long Island city, just across the river from Manhattan mybe about 20 minutes away by car, should be less by subway.
...mybe [sic] about 20 minutes away by car, should be less by subway.
Doubtful. A car almost always is faster.
"Doubtful. A car almost always is faster."
Mid-Astoria (e.g., Broadway) to midtown is about a 12 minutes by train. By car it can be 8 minutes if the 59th St bridge is in wonderful shape, which is rare. It can frequently be an hour by car.
It took me 45 minutes yesterday to drive across the Queensboro Bridge from Queens to Manhattan around 4:30pm. Both levels were jammed like I've never seen them. I have a hunch the subway would have been a wee bit faster.
By car it can be 8 minutes if the 59th St bridge is in wonderful shape, which is rare. It can frequently be an hour by car.
In other words, it would be quicker to walk.
The Culver shuttle would be useful today; instead of transferring at 9 St, people would have a choice btw a 4 Av local & express weekdays at 9 Av and was a good shortcut. Making the Q going to Astoria is the most logical thing but you would have to increase Q service, and assuming the D comes back to Brooklyn since it takes time to do drastic cuts, weekend Brighton express service would have to be implemented.
Not to mention the KK, 3 Av line, the closing of the Jamaica el past Queens Blvd were also X'ed in the 70's.
Not to mention the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle. And for that matter all Lexington Ave. service to South Ferry.
Nothing like it ... but as the story was told to me, "customers" of the "R train" are unhappy about the amount of service from Fort Hamilton (whatever THAT is) and the rest of the system. Bear in mind, that the folks dealing with this have never SEEN a subway, much less USED one, they're from ALBANY where the BUS leaves before your workday is over ... they're looking at SUBWAY MAPS saying to themselves, "why do we NEED an express with only 13 stops to DeKalb ANYWAY?" Such is what happens when the clueless lead the blind. As long as DUTCHESS gets a tax break, who cares? Welcome to PATURKEY, and BRUNO, his puppetmaster, whose county does NOT pay MTA taxes?
PHUCK the city ... that's why we voted REPUBLICAN ... PHUCK the city.
Sounds more like Wally World to me.:)
The R would operate as a 4th Avenue Express, fed by West end and Sea Beach shuttles?? What would provide 4th Ave. local service? Sounds awfully fishy to me. Was service cut back this severely during the fiscal crisis of the late 70s?
Something similar was implemented in August of 1977, but only during the late hours. The N and B were reduced to shuttles on their respective lines, plus there was a B shuttle in Manhattan between 47-50th Sts. and 57th St. - 6th Ave. The RR continued to run 24/7, making all local stops along its entire route.
Other cuts included no late hour AA service, with the A making all local stops.
Right, I remember this. If I'm not mistaken, the late night N and B shuttles remained in effect until the 6th Avenue side of the Manhattan Bridge closed for the first time in 1986.
No, it was the N & R switch a year later. The N became full time when it went to Astoria. The B continued to be a shuttle midnights.
Uh-ohhhhhhhhhhhh, Fred is going to throw a major temper tantrum over this.
And you thought I was upset...wait till Freddy gets wind o' this campaign.. and he's a Republican who wears the GOP on his sleeve...maybe this news'll make him switch parties (if this won't do it, nothing will).
After reading Selkirk's posts about all the bad shit Bruno's been up to at NYC taxpayers' expense and how Pataki looks the other way, that made me switch parties. This is outrageous. What's next, are they going to eliminate 2 and 5 service between East 180th Street and 149th-Grand Concourse because they looked at the map and think we can just take the 6?
Who says they can read?
Isn't Sheldon Silver a Democrat who heads the Demo dominated State Assembly? If so, why doesn't he get off his ass and challenge this stupid plan that seems to be taking on a life of its own. Nothing can be passed in New York without both houses of the legislature giving the ok. This means the plan can be stopped if both informed Democrats and Republicans get on board and simply say BULLSHIT to this. That's as far as my thinking takes me on this.
"Nothing can be passed in New York without both houses of the legislature giving the ok."
The MTA doesn't need legislative approval to adjust its level of service.
But don't get too upset. This was probably a garbled version of a "worst case" plan where the fare doesn't increase. The powers that be are probably floating worst case plans so that when the fare increase actually happens everybody will be relieved rather than angry.
And even in a worst case plan, it makes no sense to terminate rush hour trains short of Manhattan. You'll just need more of whatever train they all pile into. Even Rockaway Park, which has way lower ridership than Sea Beach, can make 5 trains per rush hour full enough that it's not economical to dump the people onto a platform to catch another train.
Yep ... you hit the nail on the head - what we have in the Division of the Budget is hundreds of headless chickens trying to find money or to find a way to CUT the costs. And while the word there now is MTA will NOT go for the cuts to the Sea Beach and West End, there *is* apparently a "we need to study this further" from on high. In the meantime, Paturkey has washed his hands of the mess his OWN group of political appointees at the MTA has created ... more here in this article about what they're trying to pull ... Pataki won't get involved, so whatever happens is entirely up to the MTA ... this squares with what I got told yeserday (well, actually the night before) ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=81783&category=STATE&newsdate=12/11/2002
R=142, it should take more than this to make a major move and switch parties. It took me ten years and many issues before I jumped to the other side. I will say, though, that I have been very disappointed in some of the crap that has been coming down the Republican pike the last few days or so. And not just this stupid transit plan that makes my train even more emascualted than before.
Did you catch Trent Lott's pathetic statement about the 1948 election, saying that if arch racist Strom Thurmond has been elected we wouldn't have the problems we have today. Hell Thurmond, a Democrat back then by the way, was running for one reason only and was to stop any attempt at de-segregation of his hookwork province. True the South has come a long way since then (a two party region now) and even Thurmond has changed a lot, but I know why many African-Americans mistrust my party. Many of us are working our asses off to make the GOP attractive to many young AA's and we know the Dems take them for granted. However, we take two steps back for every forward we take when someone says something outrageous as that. I'm now really pissed off.
Wasn't there talk back in the 80's of tearing down the Jerome Avenue El north of Yankee Stadium since it so closely parallelled the Grand Concourse subway?
Yes there was, although I believe it was more like a suspension of service since, they still needed the el the access the Mosholu Yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are the ridership numbers on 4/D?
Arti
Don't know. Maybe David would know.
Peace,
ANDEE
So the TWU wants more money for their workers. They should be happy with what they have. Myself I have been unable to find work for over 8 months and on my next job that I may get I may be forced to take a $15,000 pay cut with the unemployment rate at almost 6 perecnt. TWU works should be happy they have a job and think about all the others that don't.
Hey Doug, this can't be for real. Even out here 3000 miles away I see it for what it is, a stupid idea that gets dumber by the minute. Unless they run more trains on the lines that will full routed it doesn't seem that cutting others to shuttles will solve anything unless they are simply going to run a hell of a lot less trains. If that's the case there will a hell of a lot of commuters pissed off because those trains are already crowded to the hilt during rush hours. And, yes, on a personal not, I am steaming right now.
Brighton Express Bob once told me that the Sea Beach could one day become a shuttle and he wasn't kidding. I thought he was full of it but after reading these posts he might make a good tea leaves reader. Boy, is the whole idea one shitty one or isn't it?
it already is late nights and weekends, soon full time :(
we all are gettin screwed because pataki would not admit how bad off we really are:(
That may well be ... remember, all we have at the MOMENT here in Albany is CONSIDERATION of it ... sausage crafting in thw roks has NO bearing on reality ... I merely got asked by a buddy who stopped over if it even MATTERED at ALL ... so I logged into subtalk, showed the line maps and tteack maps, showed him a few of Unca Fred's rants, and all my buddy could see was that the N and the W hit a "main line" and ***IF*** push came to shove, each of those lines ***COULD*** end wheer they hit the mainline, just like the IRT Dyre at E180. To political people from SYRACUSE, NYCTA is "logical" (if you're from BINGHAMTON -- After all, NYC is like Binghamton) ... But YEAH, making every "branch" feed into a "mainline" is as deep as ALBANY/RENSSELAER minds go, and that's why THIS is the thinking. MTA, Going oy vey ...
Does it work? We'll know soon ... but meanwhile, Lake Placid, Cornwall, and Cortland NY decide your fate ... unless there's something in it for BRUNO ...
As a partisan Democrat you are justifiably angry and your Republican buddy out here isn't too happy either at this disgusting turn of events. Pataki has to have some marbles loose to even consider such a plan as this. Could it be to scare the TWU into line? I hate to think that could be the reason, but it certainly resonates with me. Oh sure, personally, it hits me right in my Sea Beach mid-section and after all the shit my train has had to endure the past two decades I get angrier my the second. I hope to hell this ins't true because it isn't going to solve the transportation problem, only add to it. Why the hell do we have to start the day like this?
Hey Fred, here is a chance to show your support for your Sea Beach Line. REGISTER AS A DEMOCRAT!!
We need help. Can I send Hillary a letter promising her you will not only register Democratic, but be a worker in her next campaign if she not only save the Sea Beach from this potential fate, but can get it back on the bridge???????????????
You are asking an awful lot my friend. Tell you what I will do, though. If she can save my Sea Beach and get it running to where it should go I would gladly swallow my pride and write her a letter of thanks. Sorry, that's the best I can do.
Again, somebody has stolen Fred's password.
Actually, I'm a disgruntled REPUBLICAN who would rather vote for the democrats than my own party because here in NYS, the republicans are more liberal than the dems. The "borrow and spend" repubs in this state have caught up to ME though and that's the reason why I'm so personally honked off. But yeah, just posted a link to an article where Paturkey has NO INTENTION of getting involved, and Bruno never cared. That's 2/3 of our government right there. Only Shelley Silver and the democratic Assembly so far are even looking into the MTA situation but I doubt they'll be able to do anything about it.
And apparently what I posted yesterday about the Sea Beach and the West End possible changes here came back dirctly to one of my buddies (they're trying to find the "leak" rather than solve the problem), the plan has been "dropped" for now, but NOT off the table entirely ... strange indeed. For what it's worth though, they *DID* do exactly this back in the late 1970's when the city was in the toilet - they're dusting off a LOT of old plans again, looking for change to fall out of the public sofa right now ...
Please whatever Paturkey does, Bruno follows him as if they are having a affair with each other. I think they want a strike to happen b/c if they want NO part of it then there is a serious problem. I bet Shelley Silver is probably going to avoid this himself and your supposed to represent the WHOLE state. Look if Paturkey swiped a Metrocard the wrong way [I read this in the Daily News], you think he knows a lot about the subways hell no, he don't know SHIT or not too much at all. This plan of possibly cutting the Sea Beach & West End lines should NEVER have been brought up to begin with.
Oh, there were OTHER amusing little ditties in the various cups and saucers being turned over that weren't QUITE as drastic - Bruno WANTS that "M train" the state's paying for done with, there was talk of eliminating the Grand St shuttle, getting rid of the D train ENTIRELY and a raft of other dumbass ideas - but then this is what the "what if" folks DO up here when they're not surfing for porn. :)
The understanding I got in my face a few days ago about the West End and the Sea Beach was "they don't go to Brooklyn anymore anyway" (meaning Coney, they don't look at maps) so they figured nobody would miss them and since folks settled for the "Dyre shuttle" then folks were already used to this. Political thinking tends to get about this deep unless your politico that you answer to ends up on the front page of the POST.
Silver cares, Bruno doesn't and Paturkey's been a no-show since his FIRST election. Get ready for even DUMBER ideas in the coming month leading up to the budget - the squirrels are twirling so fast, they're buck nekkid ...
Eliminating the D? What the... ok this is going too far now, this foolish shit they call plans WILL NOT be implemented I bet these people don't have too much understanding of the NYC subway system. The state would be glad to screw NYC over that, they already steal over $300M from the MTA for their own personal use, NYS CANNOT live w/o NYC getting its revenue all over.
Mind you, these are folks from Saratoga and Rensselaer who have probably never SEEN a subway train. I couldn't get over the D train idea myself, since that's my old home line. But the geniuses looked at the map, saw that the B and the D pretty much did the same thing, so "let's lose one, this is duplication" ... THIS is the kind of mentality that gets appointed to political agencies as managers. This is the brain power in one who sits and decides where money goes. After all, there were a LOT of promises made by politicos that can't be kept. These are the guys and gals who have to SLICE the sausage.
I don't see any of these braindead schemes coming off either, but that's what's being shuffled around here along with the deck chairs. :(
A temper tantrum, it will be more like a war zone here when Fred sees his Sea Beach MAY be destined to be chopped ;-).
But in all seriousness it doesn't seem likely that this would ever happen but IF it were to ever happen, it would just be over the extreme.
Fred may go so far as to physically choke someone with his bare hands over this.
I'm getting my hands in shape for such a task. Again, I cannot fathom this happening. No one is that stupid. Is there?
Yeah, I could possibly see cutting one of them back, but not both.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the W have higher ridership than the R, not just on weekdays, but weekends too? With both the N and the W only in Brooklyn, what train is going to run in Astoria?
Are they also planning on permanently closing Union, 9th, Prospect, 25th, 45th and 53rd stations if the R is sent express? Something sounds very wrong with this idea, no?
Looks like the M would have to take its place and would have to run to Bay Pkwy full time but don't get so worried this doesn't look like it would happen anytime soon or ever. That's the only way to go if the R becomes the 4 Av express and also the J would have to be extended to 95 St to maintain 2 4 Av locals. West End express service or skip stop service in the peak direction or rush hour, respectively, may have to be instituted as well.
Probably the M would go to 9th Av full-time and continue to be extended to Bay Pkwy rush hours.
No? Yes---there is someting very wrong with that idea and I wish to hell someone would inform Pataki about it. I just can't believe that he is going to hitch his star on such an outlandish plan. Personal reasons set aside, this has all the makings of a Shakespearian tragedy. No one is going to he helped by this and the commuters once again will be taking it in the shorts. Someone, let's get sanity to prevail.
This is all bullshit to me but worst comes to worst, it may bring the 70's and 80's ALL over again if such a outrageous plan is brought up or considered.
Latest word today on all this is that the financial folks up HERE are looking at every possible way and contingency to cover a strike, as well as longer term fiscal shortfalls. Apparently MTA has already weighed in on this idea and it has been dismissed as "unworkable" by MTA's people. Bear in mind that the information that filters down up here isn't terribly complete nor very well thought out. These are Paturkey's folks brewing this little braincramps.
There IS supposedly some plan that if the strike comes down, there are somehow (I don't get how) plans to run "shuttles to Manhattan" from the "outer boroughs" ... first words out of MY lips was "who would run these trains?" and there's belief among the adminiswigs up here that supervisors and scabs would show up to run trains if there were to be a strike. Those of us who hang out HERE know better, but such is the braintrust running the state at the moment - they don't see any downside to thse plans. :(
That R is pokey thru Brooklyn, it could really use being turned into an express.
note: I realize that this change would probably be screwing a hell of a lot more people than it would be helping, hence I'm not endorsing this change as a good idea.
Thank God for that because it is one of the worst idea I've ever heard on this board. If the R goes express, where does it go to and who takes its place on 25th, 45th, and 53rd streets, not to mention other stops that I can't recall now. It gets loonier by the minute.
Unreal, of course, it is a scare tactic numero uno.
The West End ALONE being dumped at 36th would mean ALL off it's riders getting on a "R", which would be sardine city akin to the Queens Blvd. IND lines, which run MUCH more service than the BMT local. Add to that mix the Nancy, and the prospect of relaying TWO services, and well you get the picture. I'd bet my reverse key it will never happen, the Bobov Hasidim, which have clout en masse, would never stand for it. That's just ONE section of the populus, and mix in the Chinese, still reeling from Grand IND, and the soup gets nice and thick.....
Keep voting Republican, the shaft feels good with no vaseline, eh?
They should also turn the Queens Blvd Exp into a shuttle, making everyone transfer to the R at Court Sq, it'll save money :-)
If you force people to transfer to the R at Court Square, I bet they will accept almost any fare.
Only the G stops at Court Square, with an in system transfer to the E and V at 23rd Avenue and an out of system transfer to the 7 at 45th Road.
Make that 23rd Street-Ely Avenue. Streets in Queens run north-south.
Oops, that what I get for not looking at the map. Let's make it Queens Plaza instead.
And why the hell would you do such a thing? If you're joking its 'nice' humor... NOT! How would you get the R to Court Sq if it runs via 4 Av. I'm not even going to respond your plan for a Queens Blvd shuttle b/c it is so ludircous.
I'm totally serious. I'm majoring in Armchair Engineering, so I know everything about NYCT operation and what they should do. This is the best way to save money :-)
I'd look for some additional confirmation before I got too worked up about an e-mail about a scenario that nobody seems to know much about.
This post (at this time) is basicly yelling FIRE on a crowded message board.
CG
Selkirk figures it's never too early to start pinning down the 2004 elections. :-)
This post (at this time) is basicly yelling FIRE on a crowded message board.
I agree, Charles.
All I know is that Freddy will be devastated!!
His precious N doesn't go on the bridge anymore, now they'll hinder his line even more. Oh, the agony! :-(
He is proud to be a Republican.
Freddy is hoping that sanity prevails. Right now most of this is rumor, but as I have heard so many times----Where there's smoke there;s fire. Someone evidently has thought something up along those lines. Too many people are responding to make this just a rumor.
I know, I was just thinking of the worse possible scenario if this rumor were true.
So wait just a minute, you're telling us that they are thinking of making the West End & Sea Beach lines a SHUTTLE only???!!!! I do NOT buy that at all and plus the MTA won't stoop that low if it came down to cost cutting measures although they closed lines in the 70's but they CANNOT do such drastic measures now like cutting back lines significantly and/or closing lines & layoffs. If this ever happened the N & W should at least run to Pacific St. So should this ever happen, WHICH I THINK WILL NOT, it would look like this:
(N) 86 St->Sea Beach->59 St
(Q) Brighton Beach->Brighton express[(Q) or (D) if it returns is local]->Broadway express
(R) 95 St->4 Av express->Broadway local->QB local
(W) CI->West End->36 St
And that would be all times? Yeah right it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do such a thing. What would happen with the M train? ONE or two lines via 4 Av no way then you would have to produce shuttle buses/create new bus routes most likely to supplement service. That would leave a HUGE burden on the Q and the R it will NOT happen, cutting Broadway service by over 1/2 especially the local, look what happened when the N became a full time local in 1990 it STILL is damaged to this day. It took 11 years[besides 1995] to restore express service via Bway. I guarantee that, mark my words whatever I don't see this disaster ever coming to light.
I was thinking something more like this (if this ridiculous plan was even implemented):
N-86th to 59th via Sea Beach, all times
W-CI to 36th via West End, all times
R-95th Street to Astoria, Bway local, all times
Both Qs-Brighton Beach to 179th Street, Broadway Express/Queens Boulevard Express via 63rd Street, all times, local in Queens when F does not run on Queens Boulevard
As a result of extending the Q into Queens, the following would also happen on Queens Boulevard:
E-no changes, local if necessary
F-CI to 71st Avenue, Culver/6th Avenue/Queens Boulevard Local, all times except late nights (and if necessary weekends), all other times to 50th Street
G-Smith-9th to Court Square, all times
R-to Astoria, no longer on Queens Boulevard, use Q and F instead
V-discontinued
R-95th Street to Astoria, Bway local, all times Keep that R (pfffft!) away from Astoria - pleeeeeeeeeze!! ;-)
Sorry. The express train under my scenario has to run through 63rd Street to make up for the loss of G and V service on Queens Boulevard. The other option is to make the R express in Manhattan and Queens to 179th and the Q local in Manhattan and Queens to Astoria. The alignment has to be set at DeKalb so that at 57th, the 63rd Street train can go straight through without any switching of tracks.
Sheeeeet!!!!!! Can't we at least take the Sea Beach from 86th to Coney Island? Right now I'm grasping at straws while I comtemplate loading my rifle.
Who are you going to shoot? Hillary?:)
I made the plan based on what tracks are available. If you become one of the volunteer railfan T/Os that someone proposed, I will try to see if we can get your runs to go through to Coney Island (I assume you are picking the N train).
Yes I am picking the N train. Remember who I am.
Why am I not surprised...
Of course, if it were up to Fred, he'd be at the controls of a train of Triplexes.
No one ever said we couldn't operate the historic fleet. As David Greenberger said, if railfans filled in during the strike, there would be alot of redbirds, R10s, R1s, etc on the road, and very few R44s and R68s. I also don't think there are many R62 fans either.
Assuming that I'd scab, which would never happen - I'd have no problem with 68's, already ran 143's, and ran 32's for my paycheck. What I personally wouldn't want to touch is the 44's and 46's. But anything else would only take me 3-4 stops to get used to again.
But STILL, it's NOT as easy as it looks. And after two trips, I can guarantee you, you'll be signing a TWU dues checkoff, since you'll be late at the far end every time and probably would have forgot to put on some Depends for that rest break you won't get. :)
You're making it sound like my parents did the right thing getting me out of New York while I was still too young to become a motorman. Boy, you must have hated that job. I wanted to be a motorman in the worst way. Maybe you know a lot more about it than I do.
It had its good days, and it had its HELL days. And for a while, I *loved* it ... but in most jobs on the railroad, there's a surprise waiting for ya somewhere. I might have ended up retiring from it had I been able to do all of my trips in one shift, rather than having to sit and chill my jets for about 6 hours in between shifts at Coney. It was the SPLITS that made it a living hell. TWU eventually made that nonsense stop. But had my "pick" been better, I just might have survived the gig.
Playing with 1689 again up at Branford brought back all the various angles, and while running the train at Branford was an absolute gas, I got tired of it after about two hours. Maybe I *did* choose wisely after all. :)
When did you leave the TA and under what circumstances? I'm still not sure what transpired. Sounds to me like you couldn't wait to split.
I've doen it before, it's all in the archives, but to summarize. Hated my job quickly ... BECAUSE I was dissed by the BMT boys at Stillwell, was 19 years old, and my hair though not long was not "butch" either ... helped me GET SOME and in my TA monkey suit, chickies LOVED the (kaff) "uniform." Think of Harris on "Barney Miller" and that was me - moustache, mutton chops and hair that actually came out from the brim of that spiffo conductor's cap. Ladies LOVED it. So yeah, got some, that was good. :)
Worked SPLIT shifts. Reported to Stillwell at 0540 to collect my debris and attempt to get it to Brighton Beach. One round trip to WHERE I LIVED in the Bronx at Webster and 204th (not far from Brainbridge, the 205th St terminal) and BACK to Stillwell. Dead on hours, work as assigned (WAA) if something was up (occasional extra QB trip), usually sat at the board until I timed out.
6 hours to kill ... Coney Island thrills only for so long. Word. :)
15:20 ... BACK on duty, go find wreckage, Bronx Express D ... put-in, drag out SAME crap that died in the morning, here we go again. Heh.
Round trip HOME and then back to Stillwell. Time's up - guaranteed layup at Stillwell, perhaps switch a few northbounds back, cut and add cars, hit the ladder on CIY layup, bang consists for morning. Walk back to Stillwell, expired, half hour NOT on the clock. Deadhead home, sleep in dark unused cab somewhere on the train if possible.
It ***SUCKED*** ... LOVED *running* the trains, hated the layovers and the deadheads. If I was allowed to report at BEDFORD PARK instead of Stillwell, I could have done that tour standing on my HEAD. Alas, only "pick" as a newbie was that job number. Otherwise, it was sit extra extra at Stillwell and NEVER know where I'd be in an hour. Nah-ah.
But my BIGGEST problem? I was 19. Dealt with cranky old farts with attitudes. Guidos. Kapische? I went and PREFERRED the company of my COWORKERS on MY line, the D train. Mostly SPADES. Got along FAMOUSLY with my coworkers. That went over like a fart in a spacesuit with the Guidos. I didn't care even if the crew room would empty out when I stepped in to warn up after a cold run in January. I got the hint. I'd rather hang out with the people I worked with and had FUN with rather than hostile mooks.
So one day, did my usual PM WAA, got to lay up a train that was "mine" without anyone telling me that it was bad-ordered and tagged (tag mysteriously removed) and told to lay it up. My "brothers" told me they smelled something funny ... but does a 19 year old LISTEN? Nah. So I took it south out of BB, and it worked just FINE ... when you're a motorman, FIRST thing you did on the "old wrecks" was MAKE SURE you had brakes, that you had no "hung wheels" and when you applied, something HAPPENED. Thought the Arnines had DETENTS, they had a nasty habit of behaving DIFFERENTLY from one another, so you had to cop the feel of YOUR consist and get to know WHERE to pull, for how long after you hear your puff, lap it and feel it. Took a couple of stops, so I did the usual brake tests all the way down. You just did that INSTINCTIVELY based on how Arnines were. Cantankerous. :)
So I did all my call-ons, sit and rots, key-bys and all and everything was fat, dumb and freaking happy. Stopped on a dime, all cool. Pull into the ladder for CIY layup, did last call-on, train in my face ahead, creep up at 3 MPH to stop 6 feet off and pulled. Nothing, nada, ooo-gots. WHAM!!!
I got fired for breaking a broken train. My coworkers told me that scuttlebutt around Stillwell is "we got white boy" and that I had been "set up" by the UNION ... or at least Stillwell's UNIQUE TWU which discouraged "them IND Niggers" ... so when I bristle about my PRIDE in IND, that's where all that's coming from. May be a white boy, but I'm IND through and through, the ONLY subway division that hired people BECAUSE THEY WERE QUALIFIED, NOT WHO THEY BLEW. :)
But yeah, it caused some brain damage in this boy. But I did end up with a happier life for a good part of it. Had the TA been more willing to let me report to Bedford instead of Stillwell, I'd be a retiree by now I'd bet. But they PHUCKED me ... through and through. No regrets. Moo.
Selkirk, I'm with you baby. Too bad some of my fellow piasans were a pack of pricks. You hang out with who you want to and it should be none of their business. Why all the problems between the blacks and piasans? I never had trouble with blacks when I lived in New York and for the most part got along with them great. I still revere Richy Carter who taught me how to box and Charlie Martin who was a close confidant. Too bad with all that narrow mindedness. For the record I had my trouble with Puerto Ricans. What the hell did I know? I was only 14 when I left. Anyway, you seem happier now, butI cannot fathom why they would have you layover in Coney Island when you could have layed over at Bedford Park, very close to your home. I think they were being dickheads about it.
Amazingly the mentality behind all that nonsense had gone away largely in NYC in the early 1950's ... the folks at Stillwell though were in their own weird time capsule at the time. There were a LOT of folks there who also believed that the BMT was still in business because the plaque on Mermaid Avenue said so. The GUFF us IND guys got for running our unholy D train into the "holy of holies" was something else as well that none of us "got" ... Stillwell was just a weird place and you learned to keep your head down and your sport cup nice and tight. :)
remeniscient of testimony from an ex NYC 'green' team guy at a Congressional hearing as to why PC didn't work. I paraphrase but the quote was in Trains Magazine three decades ago, ... was raised to think they were all Protestants (the PRR red team) and I'm a good Catholic.
Likr any of THAT CRAP changes how well you control a train or take a dump.
As someone who came to NY in the 60's, the IND was a FACT not an enemy invasion. I was impressed by the grand vision and the PRR like engineering--no dumd at grade interlockings, lots of room for expansion.
Diehard B&O fan that I am, and resentful of the Crude Stupid eXecutives, I still go trackside when east and I have modern CSX loco's for my layout.
My stepdaughter gave me the little pb of subway worker interviews. The IND of course was the first to break the color bar. Draw your own conclusions.
It IS amazing the stupid things people can do to divide themselves and allow others to conquer. And yes, the IND was a very well thought out system (aside from that 6th Avenue part, but they eventually fixed that). Imagine what could have been if it ever got FINISHED? :)
Lets say I was a fill in T/O b/c of the strike, my top 3 choices are the A, Q and 4 lines. I'd hope to get a R33 for the 4 8-) and I would fight with you's for it ;-).
Problem with the R with Astoria, then you have that problem again with all the trains having to deadhead to CI yard, which is why the R was switched to Queens Blvd to begin with in the 80s.
Problem with the R with Astoria, then you have that problem again with all the trains having to deadhead to CI yard
Why do they have to deadhead? Can't the signs be changed to (N) 86th Street Broadway Express at Astoria and then run in service on the Sea Beach Line?
That would have only caused confusion and wouldn't be sensible but since it was the 80's, it could pass for kids playing with the signs. As I said before only would cause confusion b/c people would freak out if their train "mysteriously" changed from a R to a N.
Moving the R back to Astoria I'm not so sure that would really be wise but if this outrageous plan were to ever be implemented, here's what I got via Queens Blvd and in Queens. Maybe a new Culver shuttle could be built, it would be very useful.
(E)--> no change
(F)--> Hillside express makes a return, replacing special E's
(G)--> 71 Av [Court Sq weekdays like now] to Church Av all times
(Q)--> Brighton Beach to Astoria via Brighton, Broadway express and Astoria local[if the 2 Q's are still there, the Q diamond runs Astoria express in the peak]
(R)--> goes back to 179 St via Hillside/QB local with the F running express
(V)--> would have expanded hours
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Q were to go to 179 St [lets assume the D is back in Brooklyn to eliminate confusion with the 2 Q's], it would make E's and F cut 1 or 2 trains and it would switch to the local track after 71 Av and the Q will run all times except nights. The E would stay on the express track after 71 Av and the F would become express to 179 St while the R goes to Astoria. Then the V would take the R's place via QB local and become full time and the G would be restored to 8 cars[10 cars if 60 footers made a return] and to 71 Av 24 hours and no longer terminates at Smith 9 St, will terminate at Church Av all times and the V goes to Kings Hwy weekdays, other times 2 Av.
(E)--> no change
(F)--> 179 St to Av X[Coney Island if it is open] via Culver express, 6 Av local, 63 St, QB/Hillside express
(G)--> Church Av to 71 Av
(Q)--> Brighton Beach to 179 St via Brighton, Broadway express, 63 St, QB express/Hillside local
(R)--> 95 St to Astoria via 4 av express, Broadway local, Astoria local with increased service
(V)--> Kings Hwy[2 Av weekends] to 71 Av via Culver, 6 Av and QB local
All opinions welcome.
You sure that isn't an INCREASE in service?
I was thinking something more like this (if this ridiculous plan was even implemented):
N-86th to 59th via Sea Beach, all times
W-CI to 36th via West End, all times
R-95th Street to Astoria, Bway local, all times
Both Qs-Brighton Beach to 179th Street, Broadway Express/Queens Boulevard Express via 63rd Street, all times, local in Queens when F does not run on Queens Boulevard
As a result of extending the Q into Queens, the following would also happen on Queens Boulevard:
E-no changes, local if necessary
F-CI to 71st Avenue, Culver/6th Avenue/Queens Boulevard Local, all times except late nights (and if necessary weekends), all other times to 50th Street
G-Smith-9th to Court Square, all times
R-to Astoria, no longer on Queens Boulevard, use Q and F instead
V-discontinued
I should add I do not support such drastic changes but if they are unavoidable, this is what I would do.
One more thing, 57/6 is closed at all times.
Yeah your right.That's just complete and total BS.Way to extreme and NO ONE is gonna like it and they'll hark and bark like crazy if it happens.Never,ever believe what other people in transit say cause it's the higher up's that ultimately decide what to do,not the lower ranking employee's.
The Brookfield Properties plan to get the LIRR into lower Manhattan has a better chance of getting enacted than this, which someone must have thought up after an all-night drinking session.
Aside from the problems already mention of leaving no local train to handle Union, 9th, Prospect, 25th, 45th and 53rd streets on Fourth Avenue, look at the track map of the area especially at 59th St. turning the N train there and running the R express would be a functional nightmare, and 36th St. would be only marginally better (let alone that the R would have to switch back to the local track before DeKalb, or the MTA would have to abandon Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt and City Hall as well as the Fourth Ave. Brooklyn stops).
While this does make a micron of sense from the polticial side -- southwest Brooklyn in the borough's most Republican area and would love express R service -- the most likely cutback would be of R and or N service north of 36th and let the W run B'way-Fourth Ave.-West End local.
Don't give them any ideas.
Just as a transit strike would cause death because emergency vehicles can't get through with excess traffic, tampering with Sea Beach and West End service may have a similar effect. As for Astoria Service, maybe Q trains may take it over. I have seen all what you guys posted on here. And I feel the pain as well. However maybe if they are considering these cuts, we need to voice our opinions. I also agree with our TWU brothers and sisters. MTA is giving them the shaft as well as giving us commuters the shaft. The fare is going up like it or not. With all these people using buses and subways, how in the world is the MTA losing money. Not to mention all the revenues from MNRR, LIRR, and Bridges and Tunnels. Maybe the executives need to take a paycut, and leave us commuters alone. And give their employees what they deserve, not that trash they offered them.
If you guys love subways and railroads the way I do, then we should support our transit workers. They work hard for us.
SUPPORT THE TWU LOCAL 100.
P.S. By all means, I'm not a member of TWU, but I support the transit strike.
This rumor doesn't make much sense. In rush hour, those N and W trains are full of people. Dumping them onto a platform so that you need extra R trains to pick them up doesn't save money, it costs money.
On the other hand, if NYCT really wants to cut back, and can use part timers or split shifts to staff rush hours without staffing midday as heavily, there is a lot of "fat" that can be cut from the midday schedule. It's fat in that lots of midday trains are half empty, but of course cutting them would lengthen a lot of people's trips.
Just about every B division line has more trains than it actually needs to carry the people in midday (not that I'm recommending this as a good idea).
This puts the manhattan bridge reconstruction to complete waste, good job MTA!
The Brookfield Properties plan to get the LIRR into lower Manhattan has a better chance of getting enacted than this, which someone must have thought up after an all-night drinking session.
Aside from the problems already mention of leaving no local train to handle Union, 9th, Prospect, 25th, 45th and 53rd streets on Fourth Avenue, look at the track map of the area especially at 59th St. turning the N train there and running the R express would be a functional nightmare, and 36th St. would be only marginally better (let alone that the R would have to switch back to the local track before DeKalb, or the MTA would have to abandon Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt and City Hall as well as the Fourth Ave. Brooklyn stops).
While this does make a micron of sense from the polticial side -- southwest Brooklyn in the borough's most Republican area and would love express R service -- the most likely cutback would be of R and or N service north of 36th and let the W run B'way-Fourth Ave.-West End local.
Is this another "tear down the Astoria El" thread in disguise?
No N, no W...
You can be assured that the chances of that ever happening are even less that the TWU accepting an 8% paycut each year for the next 3 years.
(N would run from where it is now to platform at 59 St, while W's would termiante at 36 St, rush hours included)... feeding an R train that would operate as an EXPRESS
I'd like to see them work that out, because the relay at 36 Street is on the Express track.
Yeah, they've apparently gone on to dumber ideas. Bear in mind, the fish up here in Albany use those green, yellow and red lines on the MTA map as their track map and some old historical document they found indicated that precisely THAT had been done years ago, voila. There is nothing as short-sheeted as the political brain trust ya know. :)
Let`s see: (This is way too simplified)
When the Democrats were in power, particularly on the Oval Office, we had peace, prosperity, and had fun seeing who Billy was screwing around with. Now with the GOP in power, we got war, depression, a Senator wanting to turn back the clock to Jim Crow days, and yes, a man faithful to his wife.
Which party do you want in power now?
I'll take the one that diddled the intern instead of *US* please. :)
Could they do this without holding public hearings?
They probably could by declaring an "emergency" ... I don't know for sure what the procedures would be, but this one's apparently already off the table, and they're looking at other things to cut. We'll all know for sure how bad it is when the "budget school" is done after the State of the State address and agencies find out WHAT they'll be allocated in the next fiscal year. For now, they're just busy rearranging the deck chairs.
Here's the real (though very unpleasant) way to cut expenses:
- Massive midday and weekend cuts so that the trains are just as crowded as in rush hour. Right now the IRT is full in midday but a lot of the other lines have plenty of excess capacity.
- Hire part timers for each rush hour, so that the midday cuts actually translate into money savings.
- Cut bus lines drastically so that people either walk, drive, or take the subway, rather than waiting for the bus (which right now id the most convenient choice).
Then of course there's cutting back on maintenance, but let's hope they remember enough to not even think those thoughts.
Chances are they won't do ANY of those - the "wisdom" that was being tossed around (and turned down by the TA) was having "branch runs" end when they hit a "mainline" (Dyre from Dyre to E180 and back for instance, 3 train to 145, D to 145, etc) but that didn't turn out to be as practical as the beancounters up here thought for various reasons ... what's curiously starting to emerge is PRICE hikes.
SUNY just put out the word that Tuition will be going WAY up, higher fees, probably higher fares (more than $2.00 for the city) and various other increases in "user fees" but once AGAIN, nothing's set in stone, this is continuing exercise in where to cut and where to tax if at all. Having once worked split shift myself, I'd QUIT if I had to do one of those and many who worked the PM shift didn't "shape up" for work, another reason among others that splits went away. I don't see that happening since all those layups, cuts and adds would be deck chair rearranging, you didn't need a conductor on board to do that, but there'd be no savings in T/O's, the trains might as well roll.
If push came to shove along these lines, then they'd look to cut the RUNS themselves so trains could turn around earlier thus requiring fewer trains and people ... I don't think folks wanna go there, but THIS was the basis of the "logic" behind making the N, the W, the 5 and the 3 "shuttles" in the first place as full time.
Hello
This is my first post so here goes....
MARTA in Atlanta has contracted with Alsthom to rebuild the CQ311 class railcars to increase their lifespan another 15 to 20 years. The contract includes an option to rebuild another 118 (the CQ310 class presumably) cars as well. Delivery is supposed to start in late 2004 at a rate of up to 8 cars a month....
-Paul
Welcome to SubTalk!
I'd like to personally welcome Paul to Subtalk. I've met him a couple of times here in Atlanta, and he knows his mass transit very well. Paul, make sure you visit Bustalk, we can talk about how UGLY those new MARTA Orions look :-)
Haven't the CQ310s already been rebuilt before? Do they really want to overhaul them a second time?
30 of the CQ310 class were partially rebuilt by Noell before the 1996 Olympics. 28 of them survive (2 went off the end of the east line in an Olympic fatigue caused wreck).
Has anyone every heard of Noell, Inc. before? I would like to have more info on them.
-Paul
Oh yeah, that's right. That's why there are two different interior schemes on the 310s. I'm suprised they are starting to rehab the 311s before redoing all the 310s first.
Welcome to subtalk. There are some questions I would like to ask at a later date. Now I have two people to ask, you and Rob from Atlanta.
I hope I wont be too much of a pain. LOL.
Welcome aboard. MARTA is one of my favorite systems. You're lucky to get to ride it everyday. Peachtree Center is my favorite subway station in the world, and I also like some of the other underground stations that were made using rough-hewn lumber for concrete forms, so that the finished concrete took on the grain of the wood.
Mark
I just would like to give my 2 cents worth and wish everybody in the TWU the best of luck. Whatever you guys decide I will support you 100% As I just retired from the NYPD I finally do not have the city as an employer. So I finally can give my views without any fear of retribution. They cannot take my pension away!! The city does not care about any of their employees. You are all numbers.
Since 90% of NYC's cops do not have the b_lls to break the Taylor Law there is a 0% chance of them ever striking. That's why I respect the Transit, Sanitation, and Board of Ed workers so much. Every time I brought up to co-workers that we MUST strike they always answered "we are not allowed, we have the Taylor Law" and most believe the Taylor Law refers to cops only. Whenever the PBA had a job action for example a summons slowdown the cops just made deals with their supervisors and secretly wrote summonses when nobody was looking. I realized the extent of that when after 16 years as a cop I was promoted to sergeant and became a supervisor. (which, at promotion you get a free ballectomy) Guys came up to me and asked me not to tell anyone how much they were writing during a job action.
As far as the city is concerned they are only interested in screwing the workforce. As a sgt we had supervisor's meetings where we were instructed how to screw cops. As far as mayors are concerned, even though Dinkens, Guilliani, and Bloomberg made it seem like they were pro police they were definitely anti-cop and the last mayor who had any empathy for the rank & file was Ed Koch. I would love to see him back!!!
Again I must say I have the utmost respect for the TWU and other city unions and if you strike I will support you 100%. I do not cross picket lines. I still think of ALL air controllers as scabs and would never think of taking that job after Reagan fired them. As a big racing fan I refused to go to the track when the jockeys struck about 25 years ago!!
Good Luck
Are police officers held to higher standards of respect for the law when it comes to keeping their job? Would a police officer intentionally violating the law (Taylor law) potentially have repercussions on their job when the strike is over?
I've seen it implied in the press that a police officer could lose their job over, say, a drunk driving conviction.
CG
Yup, they could lose their job over a DWI. Of course, so could I, or any other T/O, C/R or TW/O.
TW/O?
Tower Operator
TW/O?
THR/EE?
You never have enough fun, do you Pig? :-P
Yes, they are held to a higher standard. By law a police officer loses his job if he is convicted of ANY felony. He can lose the job if convicted of most misdemeaners and many times even without a conviction. For example, if an officer has to use necessary force to make an arrest, and somehow gets convicted of assault (excessive force) he would lose his job. Many juries don't realize that sometimes there is no other choice than to use necessary force.
A big thing now is prosecuting cops for perjury and automatically firing them.
There is no compromise with controlled substances period. Most jobs will let you go get help if you admit you have a problem. Not so in the NYPD. If you fail a random (or ordered) urine test you are automatically fired period.
The department used to be lenient with DWI as a large part of the upper brass were drinkers. You had the option to go to a rehab upstate then AA for a year. However the Gray incident in Bklyn put an end to that. By the way, even though he is being made out as the devil I really feel sorry for him. I know there was no intent to kill those people and I don't doubt they didn't look when they stepped off the curb but let's not get into that here.
Another thing to be aware of is even if you are eligible for retirement you will lose your whole pension if you are fired. That is why many people say it is a big gamble to stay on one day over 20 years. For example my pension is about 60,000 which if I live over 20 years is 1.2 million. However if I got fired even if I was eligible I would lose it all!!! And don't think you can retire when you are charged. They do a month investigation of all potential retirees and will not let you retire if any action is pending.
Thanks, Jeff.
So is violating the Taylor law a misdemeanor or is it just a violation. (I'm guessing it isn't a felony). Could a striking police officer, convicted of violating the Taylor law, lose their job because of the conviction?
Just asking because your original comment got me curious...
CG
I'm not even sure. I assume it's a violation. It isn't in the penal law so it must be somewhere in the administrative code. As far as a cop losing his job. I doubt they would fire the whole department if everyone struck but they might fire those on probation. (But then after Reagan and PATCO you never know By the way, Reagan was actually once the head of a union, the Screen Actor's Guild) I know during any job action the delegates allowed the rookies on probation to write without calling them scabs.
Thanks for the info Jeff.
CG
As far as the city is concerned they are only interested in screwing the workforce. As a sgt we had supervisor's meetings where we were instructed how to screw cops.
How? It would be interesting to compare NYPD methods with MTA methods.
I just would like to give my 2 cents worth and wish everybody in the TWU the best of luck. Whatever you guys decide I will support you 100% As I just retired from the NYPD I finally do not have the city as an employer. So I finally can give my views without any fear of retribution. They cannot take my pension away!! ... As far as the city is concerned they are only interested in screwing the workforce. As a sgt we had supervisor's meetings where we were instructed how to screw cops. As far as mayors are concerned, even though Dinkens, Guilliani, and Bloomberg made it seem like they were pro police they were definitely anti-cop and the last mayor who had any empathy for the rank & file was Ed Koch. I would love to see him back!!!
Sarge, with all due respect and everything, your post sort of bugged me. I know from your prior postings that we're pretty close in age. You might be a year or two older than me, but that's about it. Point is, even though you're still young and presumably vigorous, you're now retired, with a nice lifetime pension that, as you note, can never be taken away. You've got decades ahead of you to do pretty much as you please. You can start a new career, go back to school and earn a degree in a completely new field, even open one of those idiotic alpaca ranches they're always shilling on TV. Now me, on the other hand, I'll probably be working full-time for another 25 years, into my senior-citizen years. Not that I'm complaining, as I detest idleness and still find my work enjoyable, but if I wanted to enjoy an early retirement, I couldn't.
Our experiences fairly well sum up the differences between the public and private sectors. Workers in the public sector may have to put up with a lot of nonsense, I won't deny that, but in many cases they can retire at fairly young ages. I know that transit workers can't retire quite as early as their NYPD counterparts, but even so they've got a good deal - if I recall correctly, it's 25 years service or age 55, something like that. And of course all retirees qualify for lifetime pensions. In the private sector, by contrast, the age at which one can qualify for retirement keeps going up and up. Unless you can get into one of those buyout programs, which really are just layoffs in disguise, chances are you'll be working well past 60. And that's assuming that there will be a pension for you. Companies are scrapping pension plans for new hires left and right, replacing them with 401K's and the like.
In short, I do understand that transit workers and others in the public sector have to put up with a lot. There's the childish discipline that I've noted before, and all the political meddling. But when it comes to retirement, they're by and large far better off than their private sector counterparts.
And why are their retirements better? Because of unions.
(And why are their retirements better? Because of unions.)
If everyone had that deal, the cost of living would be high enough that it would no longer exist. In the case of the police, however, extremely lucrative retirements have been balanced by (in NYC) low salaries. I think that's a mistake. No police officer has any gratitude to the people of this city -- until they no longer worker here.
if I recall correctly, it's 25 years service or age 55, something like that. And of course all retirees qualify for lifetime pensions.
That's 25 years of service AND age 55. And, did you know, the average life expectancy of a retired Transit worker is 18 months after retirement?
"And, did you know, the average life expectancy of a retired Transit worker is 18 months after retirement?"
I hope you mean that as an ironic comment and don't believe it's true. If this is something you heard from the TWU it does not help their credibility.
Transit workers are not far less healthy than the general public. The average life expectancy for an American still alive at age 65 is 17.7 years (see www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr50_06tb1.pdf).
No, that one actually came from NYCERS.
"No, that one actually came from NYCERS."
Something's gotten seriously misinterpreted here. There is no way the life expectancy of any retiree is that short, not even in an incredibly hazardous industry like asbestos related work.
At a meeting on another topic someone working with the retirees association mentioned they could not do a comparison on certain benefits becasue they could not find any old timers to ask.
At a meeting on another topic someone working with the retirees association mentioned they could not do a comparison on certain benefits becasue they could not find any old timers to ask.
They're all living in the Sunbelt.
(At a meeting on another topic someone working with the retirees association mentioned they could not do a comparison on certain benefits becasue they could not find any old timers to ask.)
(They're all living in the Sunbelt. )
Or they are working as "consulants." That's right, lots of people with valuable and scarce skills (ie. high level transit workers) retire in their early 50s and, after a decent interlude, get hired contractors that do business with the TA. And not just the TA. I hear the Board of Ed is full of consultants.
At a meeting on another topic someone working with the retirees association mentioned they could not do a comparison on certain benefits becasue they could not find any old timers to ask.
if I recall correctly, it's 25 years service or age 55, something like that. And of course all retirees qualify for lifetime pensions.
That's 25 years of service AND age 55.
Still a better deal than most private sector plans. And of course there is a defined-benefit pension plan, a sort of thing that's going the way of the Edsel in the private sector.
And, did you know, the average life expectancy of a retired Transit worker is 18 months after retirement?
That's absolutely absurd. It makes no sense whatsoever.
It's true. The average TA worker gets 18 pension checks. For those of you that don't know
New York City Employee Retirement System = NYCERS
"It's true. The average TA worker gets 18 pension checks."
If true, this means the average new TA retiree has about 1/12 the life expectancy of the average American at 65. This is simply not credible.
There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. Perhpas it's 18 years, not 18 months. That would fit very well with overall American mortality statistics.
I've cited a reputable reference that anyone can look up for my numbers on the life expectancy of the average American. To repeat, it's the National Center for Health Statistics, a division of the Centers for Disease Control. See www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr50_06tb1.pdf
Most TA workers end up working into their 60's because
1. they cannot afford to retire (money wise or because of the loss of benefits)
2. They got hired after the age of 35
"Most TA workers end up working into their 60's because
1. they cannot afford to retire (money wise or because of the loss of benefits)
2. They got hired after the age of 35"
Fine. But they do retire by about 65 on average. And the retirees just aren't dying off at 12 times the national average death rate.
They are just starting a study to see what the effects of all the toxins we breathe in all day are doing to us long term.
No more than what the average rider breathes in all day.
I'm willing to bet that the average rider doesn't spend the same amount of time underground that I do.
Lets clear up a little information about NYC retirement benefits. First of all, police, fire and corrections get far more lucrative pensions than others, in part because of the work they do. They retire after 20 years.
Most transit workers do retire before age 60. I'm sure 18 years is the actual years to death, not 18 months.
But for those entering the pension system after 1995, it isn't such a great deal. In fact, given the present value of the money I'd have to pay in, the present value of the TA's contribution to what would be my pension (I'm provisional and not in the plan) is ZERO. And that's with some conservative assumptions. For the pension to be worth anything more than you pay in , you pretty much have to sign on before age 30 and leave ASAP.
The big bucks go to those hired under better deals in the past -- those in Tier 1, Tier 2 and the old Tier 4. They just got a big enhancement to their pensions at the top of the stock market, and are retiring and taking their winnings out of state. So current and future employees are being sacrificed to make up the difference. And in the TWU, you have new leadership representing those who didn't make out like bandits. At least they had the good sense not to endorse Pataki, though I don't get why they endorsed McCall.
Sarge says the pensions cannot be taken away. That's true under the state constituion. But what happens to the state constitution when all those in Tiers 1 and 2 have retired, and don't vote in union elections, and have left the state, and don't vote in in state elections? Hmmmm.
Lets clear up a little information about NYC retirement benefits. First of all, police, fire and corrections get far more lucrative pensions than others, in part because of the work they do. They retire after 20 years.
That's an absurdity. Maybe when you're 25 years old, you think that someone in their 40's is old and decrepit and incapable of handling physically demanding work. Allowing a cop or firefighter or c.o. to retire soon after turning 40 seems a smart idea. But then, when you're past the Big 4-0, you realize that it's not that way at all. Heck, today as a 40-something I'd be much more capable of doing a challenging physical job than I would have been two decades ago.
Most transit workers do retire before age 60. I'm sure 18 years is the actual years to death, not 18 months.
I'm not a particularly good judge of age, but I've rarely seen a transit worker who looks to be older than his or her mid-50's.
(Allowing a cop or firefighter or c.o. to retire soon after turning 40 seems a smart idea. But then, when you're past the Big 4-0, you realize that it's not that way at all. Heck, today as a 40-something I'd be much more capable of doing a challenging physical job than I would have been two decades ago.)
The problem isn't that they earn a pension in 20 years. The problem is that (unlike the 401Ks most private sector workers get) it pays before age 62, so you end up paying someone 60 years for 20 years of work. As Sarge says, you are a fool if you stay on the police force even if you can. And no police officer really retires at age 42. They keep working, and have a job AND a pension coming in. Perhaps if some of that compensation was moved forward, it wouldn't be so hard for police officers to live on their salaries.
I wish I started in my early 20's. As it is now I started at 29 so I retired now at 49. If it hadn't been for 9/11 I probably would have stayed on as I enjoyed the job, even though you are still gambling the pension after 20. However, with the OT (part 9/11 & part other OT) I made I don't think I'd ever get the same pension again for at least 5-7 years. I still regret my decision at times, especially when I see a radio car!
One bad thing about the pension system is the double dipping laws. You cannot work any other NYC OR NYS job or you forfeit the police pension. Origanally I was under the impression the MTA was an exception so I sent a resume to Metro North for asst conductor. Well, at the Croton Harmon open house representatives from MN said it IS double dipping which means I cannot take the job and keep my PD pension. So, wouldn't you know, just today I got a notification to take their test next week! But I'm certainly not going to forfeit my pension!
The pension system doesn't make sense. If you add the cost of your pension to your pay, you were paid a hell of a lot of money, though you saw very little of it up front in cash. I think the police are worth it. But now, if you wanted to stay on the job, in effect your pay would be reduced, because the additional years don't add much to your pension compared with the loss of years you could be collecting. They are bribing people to leave! The same momey could be distributed a lot better.
One of the best, most honest and insightful posts I have read! You show us how things work behind the scenes. How many times have we heard that there are no such things as ticket quotas? In a follow up you make a key point that so many union bashers always seem to forget, the things we enjoy on the job (or from the job) are 95% due to unions. My grandfather worked for an MTA predicesor bus company and worked 12 hours a day, 6 (and sometimes 7) days a week. I think he got 2 holidays a year. The conditions we enjoy today are not due to the goodness of the capitalists hearts! They were won by the unions and by union members having the guts to stand up to immoral laws like the Taylor Law.
Actually there isn't really a quota. There are activity standards. In other words if someone doesn't write at all they can hardly get a good evaluation. The standards are pretty much decided by the cops themselves. When I came on the job it was pretty much 25 per month which came to a little over 1 per day. Over the years it has decreased by the cops themselves. The last few years before I retired the standard in my command was about 12 per month. Thats about 1 summons every 2 days. And that was with threats by the Captains!!
Of course summons oriented units such as Highway Patrol have different standards.
A lot has been written here about the Taylor law, which provides penalties for strikes. It takes away a lot of the bargaining power of one of the sides in the dispute–the ability to withdraw their services.
Was there also a provision for binding arbitration with a neutral (out of state?) mediator, so that there could be closure on a dispute?
John
The cops go to it all the time, but you can't enter binding arbitration the day the contract expires. I believe there is a certain amount of time that has to pass and both or one side has to state they are at an impass.
There is a provision for binding arbitration in front of a three member panel - one picked by management, one by TWU, and one agreed on by both.
Why would the Staten Island Railway will be still running even though there is strike for the City Transit?isn't it also belonged to the City Transit?
Staten Island Railway is a seperate agency.
SIR and the Ferry will be running.
Nobody has answered his question accurately.
Not only is the Staten Island Railway separate from New York City Transit, but a different union is involved. SIR is separate just like LIRR and MNR are.
But in the T.A.'s restructuring plan SIR will become part of MTA Subways.
The Staten Island Railway is actually a MAYORAL agency; Transit only operates and manages it under contract to the city.
And, for the interesting part - SIR's contract ALSO expires 12/15/02.
In 1996, Governor Pataki refunded a portion of the monthly tickets on the commuter railroads due to service lost in the blizzard. The MTA refused to do so for NYC residents, arguing that if they didn't take the train they had lost nothing, since they didn't pay a fare.
After the WTC disaster, there was no refunds or discounts for those city residents whose service was degraded.
When the Long Island Railroad strikes, NYC residents live with no street cleaning and more crowded trains. When the TWU threated to strike three years ago, the MTA proposed to cut off service to Queens.
Today, hundreds of thousands of subway and bus riders have weekly and monthly passes. Will these be refunded if there is a strike?
NOT!
I am sure they will still be taking my transit check money (for my unlimted metrocard) out of my paycheck during the strike.
.....AS REPORTED BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
In a bumpy second year, Acela Express carried 2.5 million riders
By LAURENCE ARNOLD
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Amtrak's high-speed Acela Express service carried more than 2.5 million riders in its second year, which was marred by equipment problems.
The trains, serving the Boston-New York-Washington corridor, generated nearly $293 million in ticket revenue in the 12 months ending Nov. 30, according to figures Amtrak released this week.
The high-speed service turns 2 on Wednesday.
Amtrak set ambitious goals for the sleek trains: They would carry 3.9 million riders in their first year, generating $300 million in revenue and netting $180 million. But the service is still not at full strength.
Spokesman Bill Schulz said preliminary calculations show that in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, Acela Express generated $290 million in revenues, which exceeded expenses by more than $60 million.
In May, its best month, the service carried 266,862 passengers and sold $31.8 million in tickets. But it stumbled in August, when the entire fleet was sidelined after cracks were discovered near brackets holding shock-absorbing assemblies to the locomotives.
The trains are gradually being fixed and returned to service. The scaled-back service carried 141,230 passengers in August and 199,730 in September. Repairs have also begun on dozens of other problems.
Amtrak ordered 20 trains, each consisting of six passenger cars and two locomotives. Nineteen have been received from the builders, Canada's Bombardier Transportation and France's Alstom Ltd.
The first Acela Express entered service Dec. 11, 2000. As the manufacturers built each successive train, they made modifications based on lessons learned from those in service, so each train is slightly different. Amtrak has ordered repairs and modifications to all of them.
Amtrak and the manufacturers have sued each other in federal court over the problems. Bombardier says Amtrak imposed costly new design requirements. Amtrak blames Bombardier and Alstom for "extraordinary delays and pervasive failures."
Before August, 15 Acela Express trains typically ran each day in Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Since then, Amtrak has returned 12 to daily duty, with three others in reserve, three more in maintenance and one out of service for modifications.
The trains can travel at 150 mph but, until expensive improvements are made to tracks in the Northeast, they reach that top speed only for 18 miles in Rhode Island and Massachusetts.
Schulz said Acela Express has succeeded in drawing travelers away from airplanes and onto trains in the Northeast.
"At the same time, we have to acknowledge it suffered mechanical kinks which we're still getting straightened out," he said. "We think in the long term we'll continue to build ridership."
I guess if Amtrak keeps the level of service up, business travelers wouldn't care if Acela hits it's targeted speed in the smallest state in the Union, but to arrive fresh and ready to do business. "Hit the ground running"
So Acela generated $293M in revenue...but how much did it COST to operate?
That's like these gamblers who go to Atlantic City or Las Vegas and come back and say "I won $10,000. Sure, but they don't tell you they've made four dozen trips to AC or LV and dumped five times that into the casinos without winning.....they'll NEVER tell you how much expense and loss they had,only what they won.
It's right in the first post ...
"Spokesman Bill Schulz said preliminary calculations show that in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, Acela Express generated $290 million in revenues, which exceeded expenses by more than $60 million."
After a Train is Discharged, where does the train go afterwards?
-AcelaExpress2005
Into the charger?
Forward???
To its union to file a grievance?
Jay Street to pee in a cup?
Into the tunnel.
If you want a serious answer, it either goes directly to a yard, shop, or pocket. If it goes to a pocket, it is kept there and then moved to the shop when it will cause less disruption to other trains.
It joins the reserves
It get's dumped into the sea like the Deadbird's
Seems that the Hey-Paul'less than funny' society is out in full force. Where a train goes after it's discharged is really dependent on why it went out of service in the first place.
If the train is taken out of service due to mechanical defect - many times an RCI will pick the train up. If he can correct the defect, the train may simply be put back into service en route or returned to service when it reaches the terminal. If the defect cannot be corrected, it'll usually continue to a maintenance shop for repair.
If the train is discharged for a serious mechanical defect, it'll be moved to the nearest spur or siding to be prepared for movement to a maintenance shop.
If the train is removed from service due to a customer injury or improper operation by the crew, the train can go to the terminal or to the yard, dependiing on the needs of service.
Hope that helps.
Well yesterday, my school was discharged from the C Train at Van Siclen Ave. because of the wild behavior, today we was discharged because of door problems.
-AcelaExpress2005
It seems your classmates should learn to act like humans.
Peace,
ANDEE
I ain't gonna front, it was fun!
-AcelaExpress2005
Isnt there someone in your family that works for TA??
Ya, my mom is a Bus Operator on the B65.
-AcelaExpress2005
You should know better or at least, understand why the train was being discharged.
Ummm I know why the train was discharged, I just asked where does it go it a situation like this.
-AcelaExpress2005
Ummmm, in your case, it probably went lite a few stops and then put back into service along the route.
I frequently go right by that line...
My first summer job(SYEP), I used the B65 to get to/from work. Thats when they just cut it back from Cobble Hill to Downtown Bklyn.
I know that this belongs in Bustalk.
Dont you have someone in your family that work for TA???
My Father and Uncle both retired. Many friends also, from RTO to Livingston to Jay. Also my Grandfather was one of the designers of the Concourse IND. But what's your point, Mike?
Peace,
ANDEE
It wasnt to you. Its was toward AcelaExp, the post. Sorry, Andee.
No need to apologize.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last year I had occasion to talk to the NYCT Office of Government relations and the NYPD about a similar situation. It would occur on the C train in Manhattan before Penn Station. Several arrests have been made, since, yet the rowdy behavior continues. I don't particularly care for street justice but I saw one young thug, with a black stocking streatched over his head, pushing his way through the car, deliderately jostling as many people as he could. As it happened, by 'coincidence' two hard-hat types each raised their fore-arms at the same time, 'accidently' catching him on both sides of his head simultaneously. He went down and stayed down as the normal folks filed off the train at Penn Station - smiling. One day your 'classmates' might just find that some commuters have had enough and can play by some really simple rules. too.
Well I doubt that, the C Train is usually doesn't have people on there except us, about 65% of my school was on that train, so it's like my school owns that train, Im gonna start to take the A train because Im tired of getting home at 4:00 in the afternoon.
-AcelaExpress2005
Exactly what do you doubt? Do you doubt that adult riders, when harassed to a point of intollerance, might not react or over-react. I wish that there was a videotape of that 'big bad-ass' as his eyes rolled up into his head and his knees buckled. I'm willing to bet he's boarding at the back of that train instead of the first car and then pushing his way back.
There's harely no adults on our C Train, and my school is usually in the Middle of the Train, 4 Cars are packed with my school.
-AcelaExpress2005
I generally don't agree wit' you, but you're very much right. If that kid wanted to be 'hard', he's got play the part. Apparently, he was just a p*ssy.
To the next station, where it is placed back in service...
Smokes a cigarette, and then rolls over and goes to sleep
mokes a cigarette, and then rolls over and goes to sleep
Hopefully after extinguishing the cigarette.
After all, you know what the word "discharge" CAN mean if used in bad taste~! ....no wonder "discharged" trains fall asleep... they must be guys :)
Depends on *why* the train was discharged.
Maybe it got a section 8.
Elias
Maybe the students need a section 8 ;-)
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/metro/Youth_crime_up_with_no_MBTA_unit+.shtml
Just another case of the media sensationalizing youth crime.
Youth crime is only about 10% of all crime. Youth are more than 10% of the population.
I'm not surprised that the Globe didn't bother to mention how crime among all age groups has changed since the plainclothes unit was disbanded. I wouldn't be surprised if the rise was about equal amongst all age groups committing crimes.
Every other union whose contract has run out (police, fire, sanit, teachers, dc37,...) realizing how severe the Taylor Law penalties are opted to continue working under the old contract and eventually reached a fair and reasonable settlement and everything was paid retroactively.
Why is the TWU so adamant about breaking the Taylor Law and believe me guys the hurt you suffer in your pocketbook is money that is lost and gone forever and eventually your settlement will be no better than it wuold have been if you waited it out.
This is simply a throw back to a by gone era when municipal and state workers struck and eventually got the penalties back. It is obvious this is not going to happen this time and you end up paying taxes on the money you never receive as a penalty (the 2 days lost pay is taxable income and a penalty).
What advantage do you guys think there is in a strike? You are going to lose lots of money.....why don't you come to your senses and continue negotiating like the cops did, like fire did, like the teachers did. Eventually, they got their settlement and you would too.
This is no longer the era of Mike Quill jumping on tv and telling the world, "the judge can drop dead in his black robes. We will not call off the strike."
Do you guys realize how much you're going to lose?????
Because the TWU is being run by folks with political agendas, not by people looking out for the welfare of their workers, which is what the point of unions are.
-Hank
W/o the threat of a strike the city has no reason to cave into any of the workers demands. A strike will cost the city far more than it will cost the transit workers so in the end the workers will win by inflicting more collective damage upon the enemy. I have heard that the city will loose 100 million per day in a strike. If there are 20,000 transit workers they would have to make $2500 per day to loose more than the city. A 10 day strike will add another BILLION dollars into the city deficit.
You know, there is an interesting Science Fiction short story about transit strikes. I forget the title, but I'll look it up.
Money that the city loses and deficit are two different things. The "100 million lost" will be in businesses that can't run efficiently, which means the businessmen and cubicle workers lose, not the city government.
"If there are 20,000 transit workers they would have to make $2500 per day to loose more than the city. A 10 day strike will add another BILLION dollars into the city deficit. "
Okay mikey and what if there are 34,000 transit workers and each one stands to be penalized up to $600 per day ($20,400,000) in addition to $25,000 per employee per day penalty ($850,000,000) per the taylor law. Add the $1 million dollar a day fine for the union and you have a daily penalty to the striking workers and union of over $874 Million.
Ever tried to get blood from a stone?
Key union officals as well as random members will be placed in jail if the Jersy teacher strike is precedant.
Key union officals as well as random members will be placed in jail if the Jersy teacher strike is precedant.
The scenario: Roger Toussaint sharing a cell in Rikers with a huge thug who bench-presses 400 pounds. Thug: "Hey Roger dude, you're looking mighty fine tonight."
You can fill in the rest.
You can fill in the rest.
But... But.... *THAT* would be *Illeagal*!
Maybe Bleepburg is hoping for a transit strike as a way to cover the budget.
Wouldn't help the city a penny. That money would be collected by the STATE ... and we know which Senator would spend it all in Rensselaer.
"Why is the TWU so adamant about breaking the Taylor Law?"
Why were there protests about the Vietnam War when the protestors knew the pigs were waiting to club them silly?
On the way home tonight around 6 PM at 34th St I saw a very strange sign reading on an R46 car (5554). The train was a R and it was on the downtown track (I was on the uptown platform).
While the cars on either side read: Broadway Local, 95 St, Bay Ridge, this car had "METRONORTH RR".
I couldn't believe it but both route signs on the car said the same thing.
Weird, huh?
First of all, were you in the subway? If yes, were you at 8th Avenue, 7th Avenue, or 6th Avenue, if 6th, BMT or IND? Inquiring minds need to know.
Uhh, if it was a downtown R, and he was standing on the other island platform, on the opposite side of the station from this confused R46 R car. He'd neccesarily be at 34th and 6th, on the BMT Broadway subway.
Unless there were some kind of wierd GO in effect, with the R being routed via the 63rd St, or 53rd St Tunnels. Then he coulda been at any of the BMT/IND stations on 34th and seen it.
I think it was a couple of weeks ago that one of the C/Rs posted a message relating to having changed all the signs on his train to read LIRR, but I believe he did it late night or something, at rushhour, epecically in the afternoon, you could really confuse some folks. You might want to check the archives for it, it wasn't too long ago, and came under a thread about trains passing stations late at night.
Lately I've been seeing a lot of messed up signage on the R46 with wrong info and just plain unrelated info such as what you saw. Many a time I see a train signed up for the wrong direction or a last stop sign on a train in the middle of its run, etc.
It is one of the readings, the C/R probably accidentally hit the wrong button when programming the sign and didn't realize.
It was only in one car of the entire train so I don't think the C/R pressed the wrong setting.
Another stange sign. I know a guy with a porcelin/steel sign that says something to the effect of 'No pantographs beyond this point' He got it from someone who says it was from the LIRR. Though the LIRR operated overhead on the Bay Ridge line, wouldn't the catenary limits be marked via A.C. Motor Stop, or am I thinking of the wrong pantograph? Or is it just a sign from something/somewhere else. Anyone know?
I saw that same reading several weeks ago on an R-46 stored on the express tracks along Hillside Avenue.
If that sign is programmed into the R46's computer, does that mean they can run on the MNRR?
No, the signs have those readings in them in the event of a disruption on Metro North, IIRC. They would be used on subways taking people to locations where they can catch MNCR trains. In the event of Grand Central being closed, for example. The signs also have LIRR programmed into them too, I believe busses have these destinations too.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know the Airtrain may or may not open within the next 6 months, but bear with me here.
Would it be feasible for the NYCTA to run "A" trains every 20-30 minutes that are no different from every other Rockaway-bound A train, except for that they'd have the JFK express sign on the front. This train would skip no stops, it'd just be a train for the idiots that can't read the side signs. A simple radio ad or something could bring back the old "take the train to the plane" thing, just drop a word in about the train being on the eighth ave line, not the 6th. You wouldn't NEED to take the JFK signed A trains to go to the Airport, all Rockaway and Far Rock A trains would still stop at Broad Channel. It'd just clear up some of the confusion if, while agonizing over whether to catch a Lefferts or Far Rock A train, a train pulled in with an Airplane on the front, making the choice obvious.
I suppose I should ask what equipment has the JFK express signs, wasn't the train an R46, does the R44 have it as well? I suppose that the R32s and '38s wouldn't be able to be the airtrain, cause they couldn't make an airplane on their cyclops sign, could they?
What's the point of this? The "idiots" (your term) would let a Far Rockaway train pass by and wait for a "JFK Express"? If deception is to be the practice, why not sign every A train to Far Rockaway as a JFK Express, even if it runs local?
I do think you misunderstood my idea. I don't want to decieve the passengers, however, there are bound to be some people out there who get on a lefferts-bound A train, and hound the C/R with questions about it's destination. If those people cannot remember to check the side signs, or are unable to keep the two A southern terminals straight, then this would allow an immediate and unmistakeable sign that they want this train. It would cost no money (aside from some radio spots, but those are optional), require no changing of the routes, and would give new arrivals a simple system to get to and from the airport.
You could include "JFK airport" in the LCD or Dot-Matrix (which is it?) destination signs on the sides of the R44-R46s headed for Rockaway and Far Rockaway, but those signs can only show so much information, and you have to be able to read all you need to know in one quick glance. By placing one more line to be seen (does the NYCTA do the "Happy Holidays thing like SEPTA? that drives me nuts), you keep people staring at the sign for that much longer, when they could be getting on the train. By placing a sign that is completely foolproof on the front, you take the guesswork out of the ride, and make the system more friendly to newbies, which means people may be more open to a $1.50 fare with lots of stops, rather than a LIRR fare (3.75 off-peak) with no stops to Penn.
Well, I don't think I misunderstood anything. Every Far Rockaway A train should have a JFK Airport sign. At Howard Beach station, there should be a reminder sign that returning travelers should look for a Far Rockaway A train on the return trip. People using the subway to the airport tend to be literate budget travelers, myself among them.
Alright, but what about the foreign tourists? They may be looking for a cheaper route into the city than LIRR provides, and as such, riding the subway. A symbol the likes of a large airplane on the front of a train could go a long way toward helping those people find the train they need. You've undoubtedly either been to, or seen pictures of, the interiors of European airports and major railstations, they are full of easy to read, unmistakable symboligy. Even our own airports, like JFK, are filled with symbols in place of wording, why should that end as soon as you leave the airport, or are trying to get back?
If you don't know what A train to look for, fine, just let the A trains go and wait for a JFK train to come along, it's better than getting to Lefferts and suddenly having to backtrack (hopefully the C/R would make an announcement before Rockaway Boulavard, like "Change here for JFK or something", but stuff happens).
If you do know to read the side signs, and know that only the Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park trains will get you there, then fine, more power to you, get on one of those.
People get the two A trains confused as it is.
I like the idea of adding an airplane symbol to Far Rockaway trains.
On the "corporate look" cars (R44,46,68 series) or if other cars (R40,42) show up on the A line, putting the airplane symbol just below the front A and side A's would work nicely. I don't know how you would do it on the R143 - maybe replace the front MTA logo with an airplane logo (but we won't have to worry about that for a long while).
What about putting an airplane with a red circle and bar through it (eg "NOT JFK") on Lefferts-bound trains? (I'm not being entirely serious about that.)
The R44s should be able to be programmed to read this:
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY
A 8TH AV/FULTON EXP
A VIA JFK AIRPORT
As to why they don't is beyond me but they should be. Now the 38s would be harder, but there isn't much we could do with them (restricting them to Lefferts service isn't feasible).
As an addendum, only experienced swimmers would depart an A train at Broad Channel if they were headed for the airport.
Ugh, sorry, I got myself confused. Worst thing is that I have a subway map sitting on the desk next to me, I guess I should check the maps before posting.
How about (on the R-44s anyway) simply adding "JFK AIRPORT" to the existing "FAR ROCKAWAY" and "ROCKAWAY PARK" readings? The reading could look like this...
A
to JFK AIRPORT
to FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON EXP
...or this...
A
to FAR ROCKAWAY
via JFK AIRPORT
8 AV/FULTON EXP
In reference to the last paragraph. I know that R-42's have the JFK Symbol in the front.
Well people, the slowdown protests have begun. I have been hearing reports from friends and family that trains are going purposely slower and so have been busses and spening more time when swtiching drivers. Ok, this if this is indeed what is happening, this just makes it more embarrasing for the TWU, its sick.
I had a pretty slow 5 train coming home this evening. The C/R said it was due to red signals, but I wonder...
Actually, it's funny, my trains today were pretty fast, the 2s and 3 train I rode today were pretty fast...maybe that 3 train could have gone faster, but the 2 trains I rode were pretty fast...
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Roger & his boys/girls are just trying to get the MTA's attention that there will be some pain for customers despite the Taylor Law.
(Roger & his boys/girls are just trying to get the MTA's attention that there will be some pain for customers despite the Taylor Law.)
Something tells me the pain will continue long after the contract is settled. Once this gets started, Pataki can blame declines in service on the TWU for years, regardless of the cause.
How dare those serfs (I mean workers) not to simply take the MTA's very fair offer of -2.3/0/0! Heck, there only being asked to take one pay cut! What do they want, a fair contract? Three full years with NO PAY CUT? Some nerve. They should just take after a herd of sheep being lead to the slaughther and not protest.
Excuse me, we are civil SERVANTS not serfs.
I'm very sorry if my sarcasim was not apparent. I ment no offense to the hard working men and women of TWU 100. I fully support the transit workers and will be attending the rally on Monday 12/16!
If the T.A. does go on strike. never fear. They could train railfans to operate the trains. hey some of us know how to do that already. lol (just a lil joke)
yeah, Great idea!
I mean we all got practice in BVE and Train Simulator...=)
Are there subway routes for MSTS? I haven't found any. Maybe that overgrown piece of gatesware is good for something anyway.
By now I'm good enough at the R to drive it and never miss the marks, even when I use a R68. At least in BVE. :-)
That's all we need RAILSCABS
What if the railfans do it on a volunteer basis (no pay)?
:0)
Naw..I wouldn't be a Railfan Scab...I don't wanna make enemies of some of my NYCT compadres...
I makes one.
Fluent in Mechanik, with familiarity of handles
and switch locations in r33/r62/62a equipment.
Knowledge of stations on the 1/2/3/6/9 lines.
Can survive a whole day's work on Cranberry Juice alone.
Free and Willing to book.... Call meh!
1sf9
Sign me up! I'll cover the Diamond-Q, just give me a set of Slants with fresh duck tape and that shunting stuff restored, so that I can hit 55mph a bunch of times along the run.
Take Pride,
Brian
And I call the Flushing Express with Redbirds. Give me an R62A and I go on strike myself.
Train them? Turn some of us loose and we CAN run 'em! Some of us are already qualified on SMEE equipment! :) LOL! (But chances are most of us'll go BIE before you know it :(
Doug, are there enough Redbirds for all of us to play with ? Obviously Sarge will have a field day with the IND equipment and lines all to himself and you in 1227 all over the BMT lines.
No! Don't let Dougie operate the Franklin shuttle!! You all know what that means! No one gets off at Consumers Park .... :)
--mark
Not to worry: if there's one thing I know how to operate, it's RT equipment built prior to 1915. LOL! I can handle Gate Cars w/o a problem...and even SMEE units (post WWII cars). It's the Low-Vs/High-Vs, and R-9's that I have a problem with...:)
You were running 1689 as thought it were a gate car on Subtalk Day.:)
But I DID initially put her into Emergency...remember?
There's plenty of us "old timers" out here who could indeed "do it again" but we're also not NUTS enough to WANT to. :)
Nope, never happen .... they won't even put TRAINED Supervisors in the trains.
If I was Larry Reuter I would have the simulators running 24 hours a day giving refresher courses to everyone who had ever operated a train. But the TA isn't intewrested in public service. They want the union to strike so they can invoke the Taylor law & rake in the cash. If the strike goes on for a few days they will have solved their budget deficit.
I don't know Thurston. Look what happened the last time they had a supervisor run the trains during a strike!
Jeff, et., al.,
When I worked at Pan AM I worked both sides of the line at different times in my 15 years there. As part of Management during a strike we all were assigned union jobs. I worked out of "Window Service", i.e. supplying parts to the foremen who were working on the A/C. Part of this was to drive a vehicle between hangars into the stock room. There I found all the office staff in jeans working in Reveiving or the Stock Room. We enjoyed the change of pace. It was a short strike so we didn't get THAT dirty < G >
My point, the TA SHOULD plan to put these guys/gails back in the cabs.
As a mim. they would come away with a better appreciation of what the regular crew are complaining about and be happy to have them back.
Judging from my experience running the R-9 at Branford, I'd have Bloomberg on the floor first stop, first ride. He'd call Pataki, strike over, there'd be ten percent annual raises forever.
Heh. Actually, if they HAD Arnines today, you'd have gotten your chops together before you ever got it out of the yards onto the mainline. Just a matter of feeling them out - each consist was a little different in where air happened and by how much. It was all in hearing those little puffs and counting. But yeah, a little handle time in a museum does provide a bit of respect for those who do it every day. It isn't as easy as it looks. :)
Heh, Selkirk's revenge!
--Mark
Nah, I remember the cold walks to the Coney layup yard THIS time of year at oh-dark-hundred after all these years. They just don't MAKE drugs strong enough to make me want to do THAT again. :)
Kicking ice off the pipes, grab irons and floor boards, trying to play "find the leak" and of course the cab heaters. Nah, I'm too well to play scab.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
Forget it!!!!
If railfans know how to operate electric rail vehicles already, why do museums like Shore Line, Seashore, Orange Empire, Illinois Railway Museum and Baltimore Streetcar Museum ALL have training programs if you want to operate there???
Even a PCC is hard to run properly if you don't know how. How do you expect to safely control a 10 car train of 60 foot cars?
Exactly my point. I learned it the hard way. It's why Malbone St. now refers to about a hundred feet of lane.
Here's the problem: You get railfans running trains, and suddenly the only things running are 60-footers and redbirds, including whatever R16s, R27s, and R30s they could scrap up lying arroound the yards, all with the insistence that these are much better than those slow, stainless steel things without railfan windows. (the resonse from the public: "Whato Windows?"
;-D Andrew
Hey, some service is better than no service, I am sure the riding public would rather see a Triplex or R10 show up instead of nothing. And besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the railfans were better operators than some of the management they would have trained.
The R-142/142A/143's seem to have quite a following here. I'm sure many would be glad to operate them. But there certainly wouldn't be many R-44's or R-68's on the road.
Me, I won't settle for less than R-33's back home on the 2. (Well, I might consider piloting an R-62A 1 train, but only if I'm granted permission to ignore all skip directives south of 137th Street.)
Don't the dispatchers and tower operators strike as well? You can be the tower operator at Times Square or 96th Street (if that one is still active) and ensure that there are no skips!!!
Well you have signal freaks like myself to run the towers.
That would be the T/D. The skips are almost always done on the local tracks.
If I were a TW/O, I'd send C trains over the Williamsburg Bridge or refuse to give 5 trains access to the Nostrand branch.
I'd park an R-143 (M) train in the middle of that interlocking north of Myrtle Av. And I'd strand a (Q) down in the underpass north of Dekalb Av.
Is it physically possible to send a (C) train over the Willy-B? IIRC south of W 4th, the 8th Ave tracks only connect to the 6th Ave local tracks, and there is no way south of there to switch to the express tracks, the only ones which lead into the Chrystie St. connection.
:-) Andrew
"IIRC south of W 4th, the 8th Ave tracks only connect to the 6th Ave local tracks, and there is no way south of there to switch to the express tracks, the only ones which lead into the Chrystie St. connection."
The WB to 6th Ave Chrystie St connection is to the 6th Ave local tracks, not to the express tracks.
Is the headline you'd see if your plan came to fruition.
Oh my god! ..... railfans are terrorists now? Disgusting.
You are eerily fixated on terrorism.
Well, the headline spooked me at first, so I gave yeh a taste of ur own medicine. Sorry 'bout that.
I don't think terrorists so much as incompetent.
Dan
Don't grade timers and trip arms prevent something like that from happening?
Yes. Yes they do.
Allegedly.
-Hank
Never underestimate the power of fools.
NOT ALWAYS...(REMEMBER THE WILLIAMSBURG BRIDGE)
sorry about the capslock
Remember Malbone Street; that was during a transit strike, when an employee (a clerk, I think) was pressed into train operations. I'm sure safety has been improved on the technical side since then, but you never want half-trained people running a rail system.
I thought he was a tower operator
Surely it would be gruesome train crashes (plural)
Unlikely. The system would just grind to a halt as trains pass red signals left and right.
Actually, the system would grind to a halt because railfan T/o's would be constantly stopping their trains in front of green signals, then calling the conductor's cab to say "Hey, come check this out. I didn't know this signal was supposed to have a lunar aspect! Bring your camera."
When I saw the headline, I thought it was an actual news story from something like the Bangladesh state railway.
Thank goodness that there isn't such a train disaster. That would unnerve quite a number of people for a while.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe it was from the new New Delhi subway when the train went from surface to underground!
wayne
For a moment there I thought the Manhattan Bridge had come tumbling down.
If it did, Bleepburg would probably blame TWU.
I would operate the Franklin shuttle, maybe the A or Q ;-). But in all seriousness, if more of us were qualified [for those who aren't T/O's here] hey I'd do it for free if that's what it takes should a work stoppage occur b/c I am a person who is for the people.
M-7 sighted this evening: Westbound on the Babylon branch, approaching Lindenhurst station at 2111 hrs. Lead motor was #7009, could not see the other numbers.
wayne
I was told those are "burn in" runs to rack up mileage before they enter service.
As a spicy little tidbit, my LIRR engineer friend told me that some M-1s are being retired. He said one pair had an undercarraige fire and instead of making repairs, they retired the pair. That pair was seen on flat cars on their trucks, possibly heading to Bombardier.
I heard a rumor that Bombardier is taking back retired M-1s, but for what reason I can't figure. Maybe for refurbishing for commuter rail in Afghanistan ?
Bill "Newkirk"
*I heard a rumor that Bombardier is taking back retired M-1s, but for what reason I can't figure.*
Can they be refurbished and run as trailers?
Retired M-1's can serve as work motors on any rail system capable of taking 85 foot cars. They can be trailers, too (with motors removed). Also, if the chassis is intact the carbodies can be removed or modified. They can also be rebuilt as RDCs but this would be highly unlikely (I added that last one for pure speculation, but even I don't believe it).
What about scrap metal value and parts recycling? If an auto junkyard can get some money by crushing cars and extracting motor parts and sheet metal, why can't Bombardier recycle stainless steel and electric motor parts from the M1's?
About 6:15 PM this evening, I was on the Queens bound R40S N train pulling into 57th Station. Within 2 min after the R40S N train opens it door to discharging passangers onto the train, a W pull into the station across the platform. After the W discharging its passangers. Conductor announced that the N will be held at the station until the W leave the station and follow behind the W. As the W pull out of the station, the N began to move, following behind the W.
Well, Excuse us N passengers here, We were the first Queensbound train to arrive at the 57th Street station and all of sudden the We get to leave the station last! Aren't we suppose to leave the station first and have the moving W behind us. What is this? Or does this having something to do with Q that is coming right behind the W.
That's just something the TA does to maintain balance or something. That W was probably scheduled ahead of the N you were on but it happened to be late. Therefore, the N gets held to allow the W to pull back ahead. Same thing happens with manhattan bound trains at Union Turnpike on the E/F. An E can come in, sit there for 2 minutes, an F pulls in, leaves first (even though it switches to the express track after making one more local stop after Union), and the E trails slowly behind.
Metro North is constructing 4 temporary platform accross from Yankee stadium. it would be used for shuttle trains to GCT incase of a strike.now if steinbrenner only paid for some more wood ?
Huh? Aren't they already building a permanent station there? And besides, it's not baseball season.
No, they aren't building a permanent station at Yankee Stadium -- not until the future location of the Stadium is decided. The new platforms are for the use of carpoolers parking at the Stadium lots during the strike.
My car was laid up yesterday and I had to get from Canarsie to Rockaway...looked at map and seemed simple. L train to Broadway Junction...A train to Broad Channel and then shuttle. Seemed like a 45 minute trip.
Got to Rockaway Parkway at 10:40 AM. Packed like sardine. Announcement....service running in 2 sections RP - Broadway Junction..Broadway Junction to 8th Avenue. Thirty minutes between train! On a weekday at 10:30...what bs.
Train came at 11:05...got to Broadway Junction and got on A..annoucement...no Far Rock service. Would have to wait for shuttle at Rockaway Blvd....another 20 minute delay. Of course there was the shuttle at Broad Channel but that is the schedule. Nice simple 45 minute trip turned into an hour and a half.
Don't those folks running the subways have a clue? This is 10:30 in the morning, not 10:30 at night. What the hell is going on?
Both of these diversions were posted as service advisories on the TA's website. Look at the posted advisories and you won't be caught by surprise. Work on outdoor structures is generally confined to daylight hours, for obvious reasons.
The Canarsie work was for the Atlantic Avenue realignment. The Rockaway shuttle was for AirTrain work at Howard Beach.
Just a quick note---it's EXTREMELY icy in these parts---I just checked the Metro website (www.wmata.com)and all trains are operating as scheduled although they have in place a plan should things go sour.
For those that may be traveling to this area, I-70 west of Hagerstown and I-68 through Allegany & Garrett Counties in Maryland are disastrous---I hear the same to be true on the PA turnpike to our north.
BE CAREFUL!!!
And here I thought this was going to be a post about high-speed trains in Europe. : )
How do trains manage in this kind of weather? Better than auto traffic? I'm assuming so and that we have yet another good reason to take the train today.
Mark
Mark
In the past, at least w/ the DC Metro, there would be problems with the connection to the 3rd Rail---Ice would get in the grooves and block a good clean connection...as for traction...who knows, I guess we'll know more as the day wears on...
Mark
Baltimore's Light Rail was shut down for 4 1/2 hours yesterday due to Ice on the overhead power lines----According to the Baltimore Sun, Light Rail service was suspended between Hunt Valley & Timonium from 9:15 am to 1:45 pm due to ice on the overhead power lines.
You figure they would have ice scrapers on the pantograph shoes for this. Didn't they have ice scraper shoes for the IRT rolling stock years ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
We do. Certain LRV's have a second pan (not live) that has sleet cutters on the shoes. Not every car has the second pan, and it's likely that the cars "trapped" in Hunt Valley didn't have them.
Back in the "old days", streetcars could get sleet cutters attached to the trolley wheels/shoes easily and it could be done on the street. Adding sleet cutters to pantographs is a shop job.
The management of our light rail is sorta brain dead. They actually asked us at BSM what was done in the streetcar days to keep the tracks clear once the sweepers had been over a line while it was still snowing. We told them "you have to keep cars running to keep the track passable or the snow builds up higher than before the sweeper swept the track". They didn't listen.
Dan,
It seems soooo common sense----keep the cars running to keep the tracks clear---why is that so difficult for them to understand---Just like on roadways, the ones less traveled are likely to be the ones in the worse condition during an ice storm.
Mark
What do you get with a management that considers Light Rail to be a bus you can't steer?
I'm not kidding. The line operates with a fixed, unchanging 17 minute headway. The headway is never varied for any reason. Passenger loads, traffic, weather or anything else, it's always 17 minutes between cars.
Pre-emptive traffic signals on Howard Street? Neither the MTA or the city has figured out how to do it yet. Line opened 1992. Only been ten years.
The General Manager/Administrator in 1991 actually wanted to "raid" BSM of the senior operating people to go to work with the MTA and set up the Light Rail. He knew that Light Rail is just hi-tech streetcars and saw us in action. He couldn't, but think how much different the Central Light Rail Line would be with people who know how to run a rail line properly were in charge?
Did not affect my van pool ride from Northern Virginia. The VRE did pretty good, and I think MARC had a few 15+ delays.
In the event of a strike, Unlimited ride metro cards will be frozen so no one loses any money. INFO HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
I notice this post about frozen metrocards is listed right above the one titled "ICE!!!" Coincidence?
: )
Mark
There is no such thing as a coincidence. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure. After the strike, microwave Metrocard on High for 30 seconds. :O)
Also in Andee's link one can find the link showing how the LIRR will attempt to provide service in Queens and Brooklyn during a strike.
This goes beyond what was proposed in the last strike by:
- creating hubs at Laurelton and Bayside to allow for peak period service.
- creating shuttle services (all stops) between Floral Park-Jamaica and Jamaica-Penn during off peak hours. (perhaps just one shuttle FP - Penn)
- adding Queens stops to all Long Beach and Far Rockaway trains
Apparently they will cancel 7 or so LI trains during each peak period to pull this off.
There may have been more info, but I'm having problems accessing the MTA website.
CG
There may have been more info, but I'm having problems accessing the MTA website.
As of noon 12/11, I am also having trouble getting to the MTA web site. It's probably being inundated right now.
--Mark
What about if one has a Unlimited Metrocard and one uses it on the Privates (Buses) or SIR?
That is explained in the link. If you use it the time continues to its normal expiration date.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unless you use the metrocard on one of the private bus lines after the strike starts. If you do it will expire as it always does.
remember they keep records of every swipe. It is fairly easy for them to do this. All it intails is adding a simple
if then statement into the fare control software
If users uses unlimited ride card during stike
then age card time normally
else credit days of stike to the serial number on the unlimited ride card
I have a Premium TransitChek which via payroll deducation it is good for one whole year. I don't think will stop taking money out of my paycheck during the strike, HOW DO I GET CREDIT?
Well, I'm glad to hear it. Perhaps I'm being overly cynical. Then again, perhaps not.
Okay, he may come across in a rather abrasive manner, but TWU members who dismiss his views as useless ranting may be in for a big surprise. I'll bet that most New Yorkers have viewpoints toward the strike, and towards the whole station agent situation in general, that are much more in line with G Train Rider than with the TWU.
Do people who perform on the subway platform need permits?
Yes, permits are issued by the MTAs arts for transit program, IIRC. However, the people you see on the platforms are illegal the permits are issued only for mezzanines and corridors never for platforms it is considered unsafe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Most need TALENT :)
--Mark
You can say that again.:)
Why is the Transport Workers Union (TWU) the most confrontational transportation union in the country? Every contract is a fight every time. New York and Philadelphia (City Division of SEPTA) are cursed with strikes and strike threats at every contract renewal since both are represented by TWU (100 for NY and 234 for Phila).
Baltimore and WMATA are represented by ATU Divisions and both have binding arbitration in the event of an impass. In Baltimore the contract negotiations must begin 5 months before the current contract expires. If, after 90 days neither side can agree, a neutral arbitrator is called in. At no time can a strike be called. I don't know what WMATA has, could one of our DC posters know?
In short, in Baltimore we get no strikes, and no threat of one. It's gotta be a better system.
I lived through the last Philly strike (I posted as Phillyguy), and thought the NY laws were infinitely more sensible since they forbade a strike, yet here we are under the gun again.
I just returned from a few days in New York and was wondering what the buttons/sensors on the A/C ducts in the subway stations were for. I saw a few folks reach up and hit them and then heard musical notes. What the heck was that all about?
I think you were looking at the interactive musical art work installed at the 34th Street-Broadway station. Those aren't a/c ducts, those sensors actually transmit musical tones when touched.
wayne
thanks, Wayne. That is exactly where and what I was hearing. By the way, coming from a place where everything requires getting into a vehicle and driving somewhere else, the subways were great and a lot of fun!
I graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Education?
As a Teacher I'm capable of:
1) Teaching Literacy Courses
2) Helping To Improve Communication Skills
3) Teaching Young People To Be More Courteous To Their Elders?
4) I'm also a qualified Psychiatrist who prescribes medicines for the mentally challenged. Need Bellvue? Stop by my office!
I also prepare special lunches.
If you're interested, be sure to call me at 1-800-YOU-SUCK. Thank You.
-----------------------------
About the Author:
I'm 6 feet 2 inches tall and am quite masculine. I'm every girl's dream, every guy's nightmare.
Sincerely,
Constantine, Your Friendly Neighborhood Station Agent
"Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold"
Yeah, you're a nightmare all right, especially when someone forgets to hide the handles up at Branford :-)
(Sorry Stef, I'm in a stranger mood than Selkirk today... must get more caffeine... must go strangle pointy-haired co-worker... need a couple of months of vacation... AARGH!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I love Branford. No one knows how much. Quick! Get me that reverser key!!! You're ok, pal...
Regards,
Stef
Well, they really need operators on Sunday the 22nd.
You like Apples, Stef??
;)
I DO, I DO.....
-Stef
Love that sarcasm!
Say, I have a BS in music education. Dumped the education field 15 years ago and never looked back.
I did the same thing. Tried it, didn't like it, and remained unemployed as a result. Teaching wasn't for me.
-Stef
When I left work today at around noon there were announcements that ALL trains that normally stop at 14th St/Union Square were bypassing the station. This is still going on as of 1430. Anyone have any idea what's going on?
Peace,
ANDEE
WCBS is reporting a bomb scare. Trains are running through but not stopping at the station. This disruption is now into it's third hour.
I saw a note on-line somewhere that it was/is a "suspicious package".
CG
According to my scanner, there were at least 10 suspecious boxes taped to the walls at various locations on the station. Does anyone know what time it was over? I lost track of it when I left work at 4pm.
According to official reports and WCBS, there were 18 boxes, painted black with the word "FEAR" painted on them. They were taped to walls and placed under benches at the station. Some 'speculation' on WCBS suggested that it might be the work of angry TWU members.
Somehow I have the feeling it is Bleepburg's theory.
(Some 'speculation' on WCBS suggested that it might be the work of angry TWU members.)
Could be. But as I've said, if there are strikes and other job actions, the TWU will end up being blamed for any and all declines/disruptions in transit service for years into the future. Everyone else will be off the hook.
Speaking of manuvering to shift blame, rather than solve problems, the MTA has already lost round one. They proposed a $2.00 fare with no wage increases, so they can't blame the fare increase on the workers. Unless the wage increase is higher than inflation (now 1.4 percent), and the fare rises to $2.25.
The MTA could afford the wage increase if it would just reduce its work force to the allign it with actual needs.
The mta should begin to reduce the number of staion agents preferable through attrition.
They should automate the tracking and dispatching of buses on route
Automate the tracking and dipataching of train crews.
Speed up the deployment of CBTC and adopt technology to
-reduce the number of crew memebers from two to one. If the army can fly pioletless planes and cars the MTA can run can impliment a system using video camera and nightvision technolgies to drive trains from the conductors position
Run apropaite amount of equiptment for the rider load at a particular time period- This means OPTO overnihgts for all subway lines
- Not running articulated buses at 2am in the morning
If anyone is interested in detailed ways to impliment any of the above please let me know.
Chairman Kalikow was asked at an Assembly hearing yesterday whether a new TWU contract was calculated into the fare proposals. He said that the proposals were based upon the current management offer. Of course, they also don't know what kind of discretionary (as opposed to mandated by statute) state and local aid they will get, or additional federal aid, for that matter. So, the contract is not the only unknown, though at least it should be known before an increase is decided.
As their offer only presupposes wage increases tied to productivity increases, they would only be able to blame the workers for the fare level if there are wage increases without productivity increases and no outside money is added pay for it, such as if they use the $1.75 service cuts and a $2 fare.
I think a strong argument can be made that some productivity increases are, in part, out of the direct control of the workers and must depend upon other things like technology (eg: the new signal system) and better work conditions (eg: traffic management so that buses run better) and not just workers "producing" more.
I think the bigger blame game will come if Bloomberg, the counties, and the state try to cut their required payments and balance their budget on the backs of the MTA. I think Bloomberg may be hoping the MTA does not do massive service cuts for 2003 so that he can get the legislature to relieve the city of the subsidized bus lines and/or the school pass costs and/or station maintenance contributions and/or subsidies and make the MTA cut service to make up the gap. I suppose that he can theaten to completely cut off the capital plan.
"I think a strong argument can be made that some productivity increases are, in part, out of the direct control of the workers and must depend upon other things like technology (eg: the new signal system) and better work conditions (eg: traffic management so that buses run better) and not just workers "producing" more."
The productivity increases are out of the control of the workers. They would involve reducing staffing at certian areas of transit operations as technology takes over part of the job
A good example is how MVM have replaced the need for most station agents. The MTA can not unilaterally eliminate or reclasify these workers to do other jobs. they must get union aproval.
-$200-300 million in savings per year by reducing staffing levels to one staion agent on duty at all stations at all times
New signaling system is another good example. Without union aproval the TA can not fire or transfer tour controlers to other jobs when the new signaling system renders them unnneded
In early debate among Division of the Budget people, that $2.00 fare was NOT considered a "ceiling" ... discussion of what would be available at rates of $2.25 and $2.50 were also put out on the table. Haven't heard boo about that since, but $2.00 is not necessarily limited among the possibilitites. DoB also does NOT believe there will be a strike, although the governor refusing to take part may make a strike a certainty and none of them expected him NOT to be involved. After all, MTA is his "boys" ...
According to official reports and WCBS, there were 18 boxes, painted black with the word "FEAR" painted on them. They were taped to walls and placed under benches at the station. Some 'speculation' on WCBS suggested that it might be the work of angry TWU members.
It sounds more like a very avant garde public art project.
And at 4pm there was a track circut at 57th and all service was restricted to A3 track which now backed up broadway for PM rush.
> there was a track circut at 57th
Aren't track circuits supposed to be there, to power the trains?
- Lyle Goldman
"Track circuits" (in addition to the DC return to ground) also are comprised of an AC circuit used for the signals. My guess is that the "track circuit" failed and the signals went to red in the absence of continuity fouling the line until the break could be found and repaired. A broken rail could also result in loss of "track circuit" so you don't want trains running on it until the cause is resolved and repaired.
Yes, sorry, was rushing my post. The Control Center on the radio refers to a problem of that nature as a "track circut" and if the "Track Circut has been picked up?" meaning if they have fixed it. It wasn't a broken rail just some vodoo in the circut I believe, I left on a diamond from 3 track before they fixed it.
I heard that it was boxes randomly tapped to walls that were black and said 'Threat' on them. Seems like some dipshit art student's 'art work' gone amuck. After 5 years of this stuff at UHA (including naked art students shitting into jars in building lobbies. This is 'art'?), I sure as hell hope the idiot(s) who did this get to decorate a jail cell for a while....
An announcement was made that we were bypassing Union Sqaure AFTER we already bypassed it. I was on a at the time and it was around 3:40 maybe.
The uptown Broadway platform was completely deserted and it was a pretty scary sight to see.
And if this is a prank, the indivual(s) who did this deserve a nice kick in the rear end.
I meant that I was on a Diamond Q at the time. Forgot to preview before posting.
> naked art students ????ting into jars in building lobbies.
What? Who the Hell does that? That's disgusting!
Yeah, there were 37 of these black boxes around Union Sq and they say it might be linked to the transit strike proposal but no definite details yet. They also said "FEAR" and it was thought to be bombs but it wasn't and messed up service for 5 hours or so.
>>> there were 37 of these black boxes around Union Sq and they say it might be linked to the transit strike proposal but no definite details yet <<<
It seems more like a criticism of our "homeland security" than having anything to do with labor relations. As I understand it, there is a police substation there also. This certainly must give those responsible for security something to think about.
Tom
Here are the stories in the Times and the Daily News.
The boxes were first noticed at 10:42 a.m. by a transit police sergeant on truancy patrol.
How could anybody miss seeing somebody putting up boxes, 32 boxes! with TAPE in the middle of the morning rush.
Or if they were put up in the quiet of the night did it take until 1042 for them to be noticed.
Either was security precautions SUCK!
Elias
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-fear1217,0,316152.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
...and the winner is:
"Clueless Art Student", paying 3-1
Those who had "Disgruntled TWU employees" at 4-1, or "disillusioned SubTalker" paying even money -- thanks for contributing.
CG
Boxes at Union Square were an ART PROJECT.
Peace,
ANDEE
His art teacher praised the project and gave him an A - Story Here
Both the student and the teacher should be forced to repeat the course "Common Sense 101".
--Mark
At first, I thought it would turn out to be MTV
advertising the new season of "FEAR".........
.............but to hear it was THIS jackawee?!?
From Michigan!?
It's 2002.
New York and "FEAR" don't got to the dance together, Chappy.
What is this East River I keep hearing about?
Huh?
East River that isn't a river there isn't a mouth or a source.
I thought it was torn down earlier this year.
It was. But it sprung a leak.
Really? I heard that, many years ago, it caught fire end burned to the ground.
Peace,
ANDEE
That was the Cuyahoga.
No, that was the Gowanus Canal.
Isn't a river composed of freshwater? The East "River" is anything but.
It's where 76th st. station is. Elvis plays there nightly...
Properly speaking, East River is that body of water squished in between Manhattan and Long Island (well, Queens and Brooklyn to those "real New Yorkers" who consid3er those boroughs to be separate from L.I., even though they aren't). It shoulda been called East Estuary or East Inlet. Come to think of it, the name itself is biased in favor of Manhattan, so why not just call the "East River" Fulton's Inlet instead, in honor of the world's first successful steamboat tycoon? Would go nicely with "Fulton's Landing" and "Fulton's Ferry".
and the Fulton Streets on both sides of the river
Because, strictly speaking, it is a Channel.
Lets call it Fulton Channel!
It's a cemetery for nonloyal Mafiosi, people who turn state's evidence, members of the Witness Protection Program, etc.
No, that's New Jersey, the part generally known as the "Meadowas". Swamps to everybody else.
Looking from Midtown Manhattan, it looks like a river and is East of me, that's all I care.
Can we put tolls on it?
Can we put tolls on it?
NOPE... Tolls don't float, they would sink to the bottom no matter how polluted the water is.
It may look like a river, but it doesn't taste like a river...mmm, salty...
Mark
Salt? LMAO!
What about all the other things in there?! You'd have to be nuts to dip down and take a sip!
Ok, perhaps I should say it gives different results when tested with a potentiometer tuned to detect the presence of chloride ions.
My point was that looks can be decieving, as what looks like a river is really a saltwater channel.
Mark
Getting too close to it is way too close to suburbia for me :-)
Arti
It may look like a river, but it doesn't taste like a river...mmm, salty...
Actually, the Hudson *is* a River, and it *is* Salty up to where?...
It *is* tidal almost all the way to Albany but the sea salt has to permiate up river to where? does anybody know?
Elais
I heard the 16:36 Parsons (E) was marked Abadoned (ABD) and sent to the yard because of "Vandalisim".
Anyone see it? What type of vandalisim that they would mark it ABD?
Anyone spary painting once more?
Vandalism doesn't necessarily mean graffiti. It could have been a broken picture window, broken cab window in an operating position, a cab door taken off the hinges, missing seats, etc.
There are rumors that on New Years Eve a masquerade party is conducted by invitation on a select live NYC train. I have found material on this on the web before, but can't seem to now. Do any of you know anything about this? Can you point me in the right direction?
If so, please email me at paanku@aol.com with "subway parties" in the subject line.
Sounds like that Smirnoff Ice commercial.
My wife, who is a supervisor, along with most of her staff, will be telecommuting if there is a strike. They are exchanging phone numbers, e-mails, moving stuff they need to work on to disks. Same with some friends. Others will be doubling up and holding meetings in satellite facilities outside Manhattan. Some who commute in from the suburbs will be going to Midtown, even if their regular office is Downtown.
My guess is that this is a big difference from 1980. How many people are secretly hoping to be home for the holidays?
There was some discussion at my workplace about telecommuting, but it doesn't look like a viable option because there's no way to get everything set up in time. I would imagine that's not uncommon.
And could you IMAGINE trying to pass the average Microsoft Word document across a DIALUP connection? :)
Some of the work done in my department at work is reasonably well-suited to be done by telecommuting. In fact, a couple of the 25 workers telecommute a few days a week. Getting a telecommuting arrangement set up takes quite some time, however, so there's no way much could be done before the strike begins.
My company, at least my department, probably won't be affected too badly. Many of the people live in New Jersey and either take PATH to Christopher Street (just a few minutes' walk away) or NJTransit to Penn (a little over a half-hour's walk).
I was a BIG advocate of it when I worked for the state, and given how bad the roads can get and the number of absences (or people taking accrued personal time after going in a dtich) it was practical. State didn't like it much though and it was quickly curtailed - state manager types prefer to count nostrils and can't figure out how to do so over the phone. :)
But we do it here all the time - and it works NICELY. Kinda have to with most of our "people" being in Minnesota.
I've been telecommuting since 1998. It's not fun anymore but it beats having to take the S.I. express buses every day. Our employees in the Manhattan office for the most part have laptops and will work from home via dialup. Sales people have to get into the city but most of them live either in Manhattan or in the suburbs. Employees that live in NJ or LI may report to offices near their homes by prior arrangement if they don't want to work from home. This strike could be one more reason for us to move the support people out of NYC. Our sales force and technicians have to be near our customers, everybody else can be anywhere, like Oklahoma where we have a huge customer support center.
This strike could be one more reason for us to move the support people out of NYC. Our sales force and technicians have to be near our customers, everybody else can be anywhere, like Oklahoma where we have a huge customer support center.
That, indeed, is the issue that few politicians and others are willing to address. Everyone speaks in terms of the temporary inconveniences that a strike will cause. If more companies choose to leave New York, the long-term consequences can be dire. Among other things, transit ridership will suffer; can transit-worker layoffs be far behind?
Politicians are TOTALLY clueless on ANY of this ... and there's EXACTLY the rub. Business and people locate in places like NYC because it's interesting, a cultural center and a good location to physically "network." There are MANY advantages to NYC. As far as BUSINESS goes, as a result of the INTERNET, most if not all could be located in Fiji or Lower Slobovia.
Verizon's customer service is located in some prisons in the deep south, "GE Cares" is in ANTIGUA, Microsoft's tech support is in INDIA, and so on and so on. We LOVE being located in upstate New York ourselves (it's VERY peaceful up here - and COLD) but a business can't get internet connectivity beyond a DIALUP here so our sales operation is in Minnesota as are our sites with backups located in Albany. We'd LOVE to bring jobs to our area but the politicos would rather make Verizon happy - so instead, we have to do business in Minnesota.
The internet has changed EVERYTHING and meanwhile, our politicos are trying to shake down the neighboring village to try to loot its jobs across the highway. It's madness in today's world. And as a result, our children have to LEAVE the state (and take their future taxable income WITH them) because the politicos just don't get it. Arrrgh.
I agree with you that politician are the most CLUELESS people on this earth. They have no clue what is going on in the world so they do things that are out of context. The question should be, "What does a politician know about what is going on?"
#3 West End Jeff
I think they'll study your question and get back to you on it. :)
It might be with the time to study it. You might find that there are plenty of clueless politicians in this world.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually, a WORD file of say 50 pages is not that big, maybe 100k or so. It's the spreadsheets and databases that take up gazillions of bytes.
Well, it helps a lot if you have a cable connection at home.
How many people are secretly hoping to be home for the holidays?
And what if this proves viable for a number of businesses and they want to keep it to some extent. I don't think it will prove attractive in most cases, but...
(And what if this proves viable for a number of businesses and they want to keep it to some extent. I don't think it will prove attractive in most cases, but...)
I expect that sooner of later most people will work closer to home at least some of the time, coming into a central point for meetings, negotiations, training, etc. That central point would be Manhattan. That's why I think the MTA has to stop de-emphasizing rush hour so much, and start focusing on off-peak service. There has already been a huge shift to non-rush hour travel.
This isn't bad. What is it that has limited the growth of New York's Manhattan-based economy? The number of people who can squeeze into Manhattan in a two hour period. What is is that hurts transit systems's financial viability? The concentration of ridership at peak.
It does argue for skipping the expensive commuter rail upgrades to Lower Manhattan, and going with housing and small workspaces. Entreprenuers and expatriates and their employees live in NYC -- they could occupy the area south of 14th Street. Corporate types commute in -- let them locate their central office in Midtown. I've written the LMDC and told them as much.
I'll be happy sitting in my living room. Most resources I use for my job are online. On average I work from home a few days each week. Except for meeting there is no reson for me to be in the office. It gives me plenty of time to chat with my buddies on Subtalk
FYI: Telecommuting sounds alot more glamourouse then it really is
Telecommuting isn't a bad idea at all if there is a transit strike. In a few instances telecommuting might result in increased productivity. People can work at their own computers. They can send faxes. They can send E-mails. A lot of work might still get done even in the event of a transit strike. The only place many people may not be is at the office.
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry, that would cost money....a lot of it and people don't have the money to buy equipment as you suggest we need.
If there is a strike, then the TWU shood foot the bill.
Support staff and service workers, of course, can't telecommute. They will be laid off. But they are the actual working class, and no one cares about them. In a contest beweeen Toussant and Pataki to see who cares less, they'll both win. I'd bet a lot of corporations would love to lay all those people off during the holiday time, get them back right afterwards, and make them work like slaves to catch up.
You guys are such doom and gloomers. People will get to work. Didn't the "fashion style" (that thankfully has just about finally disappeared) of women wearing sneakers with their suits while commuting develop during the 1980 transit strike?
Commuter rail, private buses, dollar vans, car pools, ferries... there's plenty of ways to get to work. Set your alarm clock an hour or two early and see a side and perhaps a neighborhood of the city you don't normally see.
You guys are such doom and gloomers. People will get to work. Didn't the "fashion style" (that thankfully has just about finally disappeared) of women wearing sneakers with their suits while commuting develop during the 1980 transit strike?
Commuter rail, private buses, dollar vans, car pools, ferries... there's plenty of ways to get to work. Set your alarm clock an hour or two early and see a side and perhaps a neighborhood of the city you don't normally see.
The fact that this threatened strike comes close to the Christmas season has two possible consequences that I see, one fairly good and one not so good. The pace of business life does tend to slow down a bit this time of year, so many people may be able to take a few days off of work and not have to worry about transportation so much. It helps that many businesses have a "use it or lose it" policy for days off. That's the case with me; I have five days off remaining, which must be used by the end of the year or else I lose them. Now, the down side of a mid-December strike is the fact that walking long distances may not be pleasant this time of year. You also have to consider that there's a fair number of tourists in the city over the holidays.
I wouldn't worry so much about the tourists ... one of the things I've noted when I visit now from way out of town is that the TOURISTS ask questions, usually at the front desk of the hotel, are more likely to either WALK or take a cab. Most are deadthly afraid of going on the subway for fear of getting lost or mugged (old habits die hard) and will be minimally affected by the transit strike aside from having to wait longer for a cab. And yes, many will ride the horsies by Central Park. Tourists don't feel the need to take a train to go a piddly 20 blocks when they can hoof it. New Yorkers on the other hand, would take a bus to go around the corner. :)
There are some people that already have the equipment for telecommunting. Unfortunately many people do not. I agree with you that the TWU should foot the bill if there is a strike. IF they can't come to an agreement, there should be a cooling off period of at least 60 days. Maybe then the two sides can come to terms. Hopefully the two sides will come to terms by the weekend.
#3 West End Jeff
My company has said that it will permit telecommuting during a strike. This surprized me since it is totally against their current policy to do so.
But then how would you get to go to Starbucks. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never been in a Starbucks in my life. Why would you think so, Andee?
As an office manager, I would be laid off if everyone could telecommute.
I know I should go to their official site for this, but I'm lazy. I'm gonna need to travel from Albany to Penn Station on 12/20, and I'd like to know how much it would cost and how long the trip would take under normal circumstances. If you know the information, you can e-mail it to me if you like.
TIA
If you had gone to www.Amtrak.com and in the box on the right hand side selected in NYP ALB 12/20 and then clicked 2 buttons you would have gotten exactly the info you needed. It took you longer to post this message than it would have taken you to go to www.amtrak.com
BTW, amtrak.com has a 35% off winter travel sale, maybe it would apply to you.
Amtrak.com does not work properly with WebTV.
$50 Even.
"Amtrak.com does not work properly with WebTV. "
No Cookies : (
Actually WebTV does use cookies. The main problem is they refuse to upgrade to Java script.
Call them here - number is inside the ticket booth at the Joe Bruno station ... (518)462-5763 ...
I know I should go to their official site for this, but I'm lazy. I'm gonna need to travel from Albany to Penn Station on 12/20, and I'd like to know how much it would cost and how long the trip would take under normal circumstances. If you know the information, you can e-mail it to me if you like.
TIA
Well, you *could* ask a token booth attend......
Ops, sorry, AMTK doesn't have any of those. Guess you will just have to dial 1-800- UAS RAIL!
: ) Elias
Nope. 1-800-USA-RAIL
Actually, he'll do better calling the Joe Bruno station directly - that number is also useful if you want to know when the train is REALLY coming since they have a tie-line to CSX and can find out what siding the eastbound has been stuck on and where. :)
Nope. 1-800-USA-RAIL
Yup... I saw tham moments *after* I hit the submit button.
Did I ever mention my dyslexia...
My fingers have it even worse.
Mostly it affects my reading numbers,
I never get my hymnal turned to the right page on the first try.
Elias
According to the Amtrak website: $43
thanks
Story at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20021211/135053646.htm
In the past couple of weeks, it's been M-7s every time I've seen it. Just in case someone feels like railfanning that early...
As did I! Returns on the 8:38, has a layover time of like 4-5 mins. Pretty neat run.
>>As did I! Returns on the 8:38, has a layover time of like 4-5 mins. Pretty neat run.<<
After a afternoon snooze at VD yard, it becomes the 6:04PM out of Flatbush to Ronkonkoma. I hear M-7 deliveries will accelerate in January.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>As did I! Returns on the 8:38, has a layover time of like 4-5 mins. Pretty neat run.<<
After a afternoon snooze at VD yard, it becomes the 6:04PM out of Flatbush to Ronkonkoma. I hear M-7 deliveries will accelerate in January.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just saw the M-7 this morning at around 7:40 am leaving Nostrand Ave., it had a loud horn.
-AcelaExpress2005
Hey guys,
When do we get a chance at the M-7 on the Port Washington line?
>>When do we get a chance at the M-7 on the Port Washington line? <<
They aren't running there as of now. Sometime in the future, be patient.
Bill "Newkirk"
Very very weird, I imagine signals must have been f0rked up due to this?
When did this happen? My lights blinked around 10:15pm or so.
I didn't notice anything and I live a block or two from Clayton.
Well our good friend at 98th & Broadway noticed it.
Well, I didn't notice it last night, but something certainly happened -- Con Ed guys are all over the place and the hallway lights, elevator, and water(!) are out in my building now.
This morning at 5AM there was a manhole explosion outside my building on 88 and west end. Sounded like a bomb.
This morning at 5AM there was a manhole explosion outside my building on 88 and west end. Sounded like a bomb.
Whew, let's be thankful it didn't happen near Wall Street during market hours. It would've knocked 250 points off the Dow.
LOL
Yes! It shook my building. My initial thought, after some of yesterday's threads, was another terrorist attack. Then I realized it was probably just a car crash. I looked out the window, didn't see anything, and went back to sleep.
["This morning at 5AM there was a manhole explosion outside my building on 88 and west end. Sounded like a bomb."]
Isn't that how Ed Norton got hurt, on Himrod Street? You know, when Ralph was going to give him a transfusion.
I did. Same as the last one. Lights blinked, my DTV box "froze", etc....
I had a voltage dip at 9:26 P.M. in Hastings-on-Hudson and both the lights blinked, and the computer went off.
#3 West End Jeff
There was a redbird with the lights out sitting halfway into the downtown express track of the 96th St 1/2/3 station at 9:15 last night. No idea if there was any connection. I grabbed a local and nver saw any other problems.
A Redbird on the West Side? Nice find; too bad it wasn't going anywhere. Signed as a 2?
"Signed as a 2?"
Too busy trying to catch the local to look.
We (149/GC) got a few transfers last night from 207, maybe this was one of them.
Transfers from 207? They're coming back to life! Did you notice if any were in 2 service?
They were transfers to E180 street, and I have no idea what future plans were for them.
An R143 was stopped suddenly in a test run along the Brighton as well.
The computer on the train went off and the train just stopped suddenly.No one had any idea how or why it happened.Must've been cause of this voltage dip.
At 149/Grand Conc. Tower quick flicker of the lights, and the AC Power Interruption alarm went off, but we didn't notice any problem up there.
Must have been so quick as not to affect the signals.
Ya know? It never ceases to amaze me that the TA doesn't have rotating metal motor/gens for the signals so that a second or two worth of lost cycles would keep generating output for signals and only an actual outage would take them out once the rotating metal stopped rotating. Out here in Podunk, we have an MG set on the power line for our computers and such for dropped cycles and short term dumps and resets of the grid. Given that the TA is a bit more "life critical" than a software company, you'd think. Nevermind. :)
Selkirk, remember the following:
State budget = no cents
MTA operations = no sense
City's budget = foul scents
TWU = incensed
There, is that helpful?
Heh. I sit corrected. :)
At approximately 10:30 p.m. I noticed my lights blink...thenthe radio I was listening to (Ron and Fez Show) when to static for about 20 seconds...came back on with a lower volume (WNEW was on backup generator).
Looked out the window and noticed streetlights were out. They came back on a few mintues later...weird...anyone else have this experience?
People are calling into the radio show talking about similar problems in Amityville, Long Island and Bergen, New Jersey, so this is not something particular to NYC...more news to come I'm sure...
That same moment, browsing SubTALK became a redbird and
hit a voltage gap (like the one just outside of TSQ on 7)
and blinked for a second or three.. Luckily I was seated,
so it didn't topple me... now I see the pattern continued
downward and into NJ... perhaps the 11th car, too?
:)
1sf9
Somebody plugged in too many appliances in Rensselaer. :)
Didn't happen in Upstate NY.
u blinked, brah...
I don't know about that. It would be an awfully good explanation for why WKXZ-FM in Norwich has been out all day.
Our lights flickered very briefly out here in Medford, L.I. It didn't seem to affect the idiot box and didn't start the digital clock blinking.
Something definatley happened. My digital cable box "froze" for about 3 seconds before returning to normal.
Nah, if you're on TimeWeenie, that happens even when there AREN'T glitches. Rebooting a cable box. Gotta love it. :)
Looks like the Berkshires and parts of the Catskills took it in the ear last night. All we got out of it was about 10 inches of wet snow that ain't going anywhere soon.
This coincided with the lights blinking. It wasn't a normal TWC glitch.
If you're ON CAMPUS at SUNY Albany, that's powered out of Rensselaer (East Greenbush substation actually) and there were a few "events" on the Berkshire feeders ...
We noticed a blink around 10:31; it made my 386 reboot, no harm done. All streetlights remained on.
wayne
serves you right
386? How long does it take you to boot up? 3 days?
lol
No problem in brooklyn
I AM in Brooklyn...streetlights in Brooklyn College area went out...traffic lights weren't affected....lasted several mintues.
Brief surge here on S.I. at approx 10:29 pm. TV screen went blue for a second, streetlights stayed on, nothing else to report.
lights flickered here in brooklyn for a sec but i thought it was just in my apt till i read this now
Same thing in the Tremont section of The Bronx.
Sorry for the previous post, I meant to specify - The West Tremont Section of The Bronx.
It is 1:55 AM. I am in West Tremont and the lights still flicker slightly every so often. Is anyone else experiencing the same thing?
Lights flickered in Polytechnic University's Dibner Library(In Metrotech Center, Brooklyn), dont recall what time, but it was most likely around 10:30.
Doug,
Are you sure heypaul didn't find a way to power his R9 setup? <^-^>
That's a to the rest of you.
Coulda been heypaul powering up his R-9 :)
I can personally attest to the power of an Arnine to suck the electrons out of a grid ... when I was out up at the museum in 1689, and had the redbird on the circuit too, went for parallel and watched the lights in the car do a 1965 as the motors said, "nah" ... you guys may be on to something here, especially if Paul replaced the original compressor with an Electrolux. :)
It happened in White Plains as well. Was on the phone to a friend in Queens and it happened in Bayside too.
I didn't experience this phenomenon in Suffern, NY.
--Mark
Not here in the outmarches. We're in the PNJ grid and not affected by Con Ed glitches.
I experienced a voltage drop in Hastings-on-Hudson at abut 9:26 P.M. last night. My lights blinked and my computer went off.
#3 West End Jeff
If there is a transit strike, it would be a bummer for railfans and bus fans in New York City. They wouldn't have a means to tour the city. Then the only way they could study the equipment is to go to the yards and the depots, not while the equipment is in service. Let's hope that there isn't a transit strike and the trains and the buses keep rolling.
#3 West End Jeff
It would be worse than that for some of you. You would not know which consists were used for fire duty or all the weird moves due to the massive number of layups.
I'm sure there would be some interesting moves if there is to be a strike.
#3 West End Jeff
The only interesting moves I could imagine is countless numbers of railfans twiddling their thumbs or banging their heads agianst the wall out of boredom.
... or fire up BVE and do a couple of round trips on the E ... :)
HUH?
THERES AN E ROUTE FOR BVE???
Where? Wow, How did I get so behind? Thought I had em all, 7,R and G, how many am I missing that I don't know about?
Both directions ... Marraro had them on his site a while ago, but went over to the dark side (MSTS and on an MSN site which requires a "passport") ... but yeah, there's even an UNFINISHED L train, Q express, Q local, D train, R train, Franklin Shuttle and a few others. Some are EXCELLENT (Franklin shuttle) and others are mediocre to middling with some minor errors ...
BVE conduct rules though prohibit making them available - if the various authors would approve it, and I could get $10 for the fee of making the CDROMs, I'd make it available. Alas, like most "free software" it's unlawful to recover the costs of making copies and shipping them, and sadder still, most of the original authors no longer have working sites where you can get them. But they ARE out there.
But feel free to hit google, search for "BVE NYCTA E" and you might find a copy out there ... substitute other line letters and numbers and you might find more of them. For all that wanted to run a train during the strike, you might be able to right at the box you're typing on now, and leave the real trains to the pros ...
Just found a way past the darkside of MSN! ...
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/routes.html
Don't forget to get the OBJECTS file here:
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nyct.zip
Thank You Very Very Much
I also found that www.bve-routes.comalso had some NYCTA BVE routes, the D Line, the E line, the V line, and the Grant St Shuttle.
Thanks again,
Will
You're most welcome ... glad to have been able to find it. They may not be the slickest (most of the really well done ones come out of German and Japanese authors of their home lines) but it's close enough to get your yayas when you find the cab door on a REAL train locked. :)
I'm almost positive that there will be plenty of bored and perhaps even disgruntled railfans. Not to mention about those railfans that will have withdrawal symptoms.
#3 West End Jeff
If anything, it should be easier to engage in illegal activities...oh wait! management will be on patrol. Damn. No sneaking into restricted areas to get pictures!
No sneaking into restricted areas to get pictures!
Does that mean the tour of 76th Street is cancelled? ;-)
You never know when those management people are lurking about.
#3 West End Jeff
Two questions came to mind over the past few days:
1) Would subway construction/repair projects staffed by contractors to NYCT continue to work through a strike? (I'm assuming that in-house projects would be halted.)
2) Does anyone know how concessionaires figure in all this? Is there some arrangement in their contracts with NYCT that freezes or prorates rent payments in the case of a strike? Or are they just outta luck?
Thanks!
::D
1) Would subway construction/repair projects staffed by contractors to NYCT continue to work through a strike? (I'm assuming that in-house projects would be halted.)
No, most projects on the right of way will be shut down. In fact, they have already been shut down for this weekend just in case. Personally, I thought that this would be an opportunity, but it isn't. By the way, a strike would affect the ever shifting idea of whether it makes sense to bring more work in-house.
On thing that might happen is that to recoup losses from the strike, the TA might shut down night service on the subway. This would make construction safer and cheaper.
2) Does anyone know how concessionaires figure in all this? Is there some arrangement in their contracts with NYCT that
freezes or prorates rent payments in the case of a strike? Or are they just outta luck?
They are screwed.
So the Snediker el will definitely be in service for the winter?
As far as construction workers working for private contractors, most of them are strict union men that would never think of crossing a picket line.
At 6:30 AM announcements were being made at Grand Central that due to an incident (fire) at Bowling Green all 4 and 5 trains were terminating at Brooklyn Bridge. If it goes on much longer, look for a lousy commute on the Lexington Avenue line.
It was a burning insulator.
David
Here is an article in the New York Times about how the new subway cars determine where they are.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/technology/circuits/12subw.html
Thanks
Anytime !!
Gee, I always wonder if GPS had something to do with it. Now I know it's not GPS, but "As the Wheels Turns" (a soap about a subtalker).
As the Wheels Turns" (a soap about a subtalker)
Good one !!!!
The next episode of "As the Wheels Turn":
Could our SubTalker and his beloved R-142 be separated by a transit strike? Find out Monday...
That movie the article talks about seems like a good movie. I gotta find it!
I came across this article about electrical irregularities in an English town being caused by horses rubbing against power poles to relieve an itch.
horsing around
You did it AGAIN .... LOL
Thanks for the morning humor !
I think it would go a long way to avert a transit strike, if the annual Transit Transit holiday show was broadcast 24 hours a day on all the major television channels. The good will engendered by that show would resolve any lingering problems between the MTA and the union members.
I think that it would actually encourage a strike. The public would rather have peace & quiet and no trains than to have service and hear TA employees sing (quite horribly).
Well, some TA employees have good voices for making announcements (Mark W. and SubBus Mike are examples), but I never heard them sing a tune, so this might be a horrible idea after all (I can picture glass breaking, etc.). :)
Maybe pull the museum cars out, charge them up, and adjust the pitch of the whistles so they could become a giant hissing TA calliope. Now THAT might be special. :)
Only in New Yrok can you do stuff like this, MTA workers singing 'very badly', it makes the people who sing in the Lotto commercial sound good [they're singing isn't too bad but is not glamorous]. It would get VERY annoying after the first time.
Sorry, but I'm not sure your idea has merit this time, Paul. :)
Actually it does but do it this way, lock the negotiators in a room and force them to watch it UNTIL THEY START NEGOTIATING.
Peace,
ANDEE
THAT might actually work !
What is this show? I've never heard of it.
Then you have alot in common with most New Yorkers....since they've never heard of TransitTransit either....:)
Here's this months highlights.
--Mark
>>I think it would go a long way to avert a transit strike, if the annual Transit Transit holiday show was broadcast 24 hours a day on all the major television channels.<<
If that fails, Transit Transit could be the perfect cure for insomnia !
Bill "Newkirk"
From Metro Traffic:
LEXINGTON AVE AT E 70TH ST - FIRE IN A RESIDENTIAL HIGH RISE BUILDING. REPORTED TO BE AT 955 LEXINGTON AV. +LEXINGTON AV CLOSED AT 72ND ST & 70TH ST CLOSED 3RD TO LEXINGTON AV+, DIVERTING M-101 BUSES. "4-5-6" TRAINS BYPASS "68TH ST/HUNTER COLLEGE" STATION.
Peace,
ANDEE
But at least the trains are still running.
They were still running yesterday too.
Peace,
ANDEE
I feel the city should set up calming centers in each borough for railfans to go in the event of a strike. They could have sign boxes from the redbirds for the railfans to scroll through. Dumpsters of metrocards which railfans could search through looking for the special TRANSIT TRANSIT card that would be worth a free FUN PASS. Grief counselors would be available for railfans overwhelmed by the absence of subways and buses.
"I feel the city should set up calming centers in each borough for railfans to go in the event of a strike."
Alternatively, railfans could use the opportunity to try out some commuter rail options.
Yeah, I would go find some M-7's, or go for a ride on a MNR line, or go ride the ferry/SIRT, or see how pissed off I can make PATH by taking more photos :) j/k
Will Amtrak be stopping in Riverside Park? Will Metro-North be stopping at 86th Street? If not, commuter rail won't help me.
OTOH, if I have a few hours to kill, I may take the ferry from the 79th Street Boat Basin to Sheepshead Bay and back.
If you had to go to the Village, you could take a ferry to W 38th, another to Newport, and then the PATH to the Village. Almost no walking.
I may have to do the reverse trip next week myself (though I'll probably just walk if there's a strike because it's quicker and more reliable than possible long ferry waits).
Holy MetoCard folks are taking Heypaul's post seriously :-(
"Holy MetoCard folks are taking Heypaul's post seriously :-( "
I knew it was a joke. I was reponding to his underlying point, which is that a strike would be a drag for railfans.
See that, you got to understand what most miss ... if you read between the lines (of humor) there is usually something of value in his posts.
I for one look forward to them. I don't alway "get it", but I always smile.
thurston you're a saint... speaking for myself, i don't think heypaul's posts are worth the time to look for a deeper meaning... he's past his prime, and just coasting on old material... i willing to bet he's going to revive his idea to have railfans form an emergency transport system to help out their fellow new yorkers in the event of a strike... you know using the sewer system for mass boat transit...
he hasn't had an original idea in years...
Hey, there are rails in the Third Water Tunnel! I don't remember the exact routing offhand, but I think we could have direct Greenpoint to Manhattan service for once.
Now look what you did? You've probably just given Sparky some bright ideas about running 3rd Avenue cars through there....geez...now the word is out...:)
I spoke too soon; the stretch under construction is Red Hook to Astoria, not much more useful than the G. There's already water in the tunnel from Manhattan to Roosevelt Island.
It's also 600-something feet deep; that would be one looooong ramp to get cars in there :).
Yeah, me thinks a submarine would be in order just to lay track...LOL!
You missed my point - the track's already there! The sandhogs have a little railroad to get to work and to transport materials from the elevator shaft. It would be good practice for the Redbirds ;).
Installing third rail might be a little hairy in the section that already has water...
Yeah, but is it equpped for overhead -- or to be more authentic -- under-rail powerlines?
Water? That doesn't get in the way of running trains. Ever been to Chambers?
Nah, the sewers are out. They've been converted into an "undisclosed secure location" which is why those covers got welded on when Enron executives and Arthur Andersen accountants were trying to escape. :)
I agree the sewer idea wasn't good. I like using Water Tunnel 3.
I've been contacting people in the amusement park industry to see if we could lease about 1000 electric bumper cars. This is the operator's off season, so most of the cars are in the storage yards. Leasing the cars during the transit strike would be found money.
The DOT could establish priority lanes for the bumper cars and hang some sheet metal for the overhead contact and cover the street with metal for the ground return. The ozone created when the contacts sparked would help purify the atmosphere.
Heh. Maybe add some old beat up Checker cabs to the fleet as well. Then it'd look like something straight out of the Super Mario Brothers movie. :)
I can still remember the old Checker cabs from my childhood. They had so much room inside, unlike the modern taxicabs.
#3 West End Jeff
My pops owned one. A *real* road tank. :)
And for those who would want to be trainmasters and are feeling a bit low, we've GOTTA come up with little brass balls for them to roll around as they dispatch. :)
They could have one of those relief centers at Grand Central Terminal. Maybe they could have one at Coney Island and if you catch ten rings in a row without a miss while riding the B&B Carousell you are entitled to operate a subway train consisting of Triplexs from Coney Island to Times Square on #4 Sea Beach Fred's favorite line on the express tracks.
#3 West End Jeff
Paul,
Slip me directions to these centers ON THE DOUBLE..!!
What we really need is a GOOD subway sim for microsoft train simulator. That way we can run and "ride" our own subway trains when the real ones aren't running.
I'm not into computer simulation that much. But I just realized that the calming centers would screen "The Taking of Pelham 123" on a continuous basis. That would keep me happy.
And invite the politicians, tie them down to their seats and make them watch "Money Train" until they puke or settle, whichever comes first. The cleanup though might get expensive. :(
I enjoy watching "Money Train" if only for the scenes involving JLo... Yum! Yum! :)
Yeah, but she's the only redeeming quality. Now if Halle Berry had been in the movie, it'd be running 24/7 in the company theatre. :)
A "portable" camera that is used to deter grafitti taggers.
The money spent to deter graffiti could have been used for true preventative manitenance. If so, would the subway system have gotten into as bad a shape as it was in the mid 70s? Might it have been a little better? Hmmmm .....
--Mark
I wonder how many John Ashcroft has ordered...
Mark
Probably just enough to look for those evil female calico cats. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
And heaven help those kitties if it's "that time of the month." And to think, we went after the Taliban for the same mentality.
HERE'S something you can have some fun with. Laughed my ass off on the way home on the train today.
Peace,
ANDEE
And then there's the subtalker's recommendations for Santa Claus :
1. Instead of milk and cookies, leave him a salad, and a note explaining
that you think he could stand to lose a few pounds.
2. While he's in the house, go find his sleigh and write him a speeding
ticket.
3. Leave him a note, explaining that you've gone away for the holidays.
Ask if he would mind watering your plants.
4. While he's in the house, replace all his reindeer with exact replicas.
Then wait and see what happens when he tries to get them to fly.
5. Keep an angry bull in your living room. If you think a bull goes crazy
when he sees a little red cape, wait until he sees that big, red Santa suit!
6. Build an army of mean-looking snowmen on the roof, holding signs
that say "We hate Christmas," and "Go away Santa"
7. Leave a note by the telephone, telling Santa that Mrs. Claus called
and wanted to remind him to pick up some milk and a loaf of bread on
his way home.
8. Set a bear trap at the bottom of the chimney. Wait for Santa to get
caught in it, and then explain that you're sorry, but from a distance, he
looked like a bear.
9. While he's in the house, find the sleigh and sit in it. As soon as he
comes back and sees you, tell him that he shouldn't have missed that
last payment, and take off.
10. Leave a plate filled with cookies and a glass of milk out, with a note
that says, "For The Tooth Fairy." Leave another plate out with half a
stale cookie and a few drops of skim milk in a dirty glass with a note
that says, "For Santa"
11. Take everything out of your house as if it's just been robbed. When
Santa arrives, show up dressed like a policeman and say, "Well, well.
They always return to the scene of the crime."
12. Leave out a copy of your Christmas list with last-minute changes
and corrections.
13. While he's in the house, cover the top of the chimney with barbed
wire.
14. Leave lots of hunting trophies and guns out where Santa's sure to
see them. Go outside, yell, "Ooh! Look! A deer! And he's got a red
nose!" and fire a gun.
15. Leave Santa a note, explaining that you've moved. Include a map
with unclear and hard-to-read directions to your new house.
16. Leave out a Santa suit, with a dry-cleaning bill.
17. Paint "hoof-prints" all over your face and clothes. While he's in the
house, go out on the roof. When he comes back up, act like you've
been "trampled." Threaten to sue.
18. Instead of ornaments, decorate your tree with Easter eggs. Dress
up like the Easter Bunny. Wait for Santa to come and then say, "This
neighborhood ain't big enough for the both of us."
Andee, Kevin
You'se made me day. ROFLOL.
;-) Sparky
Wouldn't be Noo Yawk without wisenheimers. Thanks for the excessive verbiage and hope you enjoy your vacation (somewhat) upstate! :)
Fascinating.
Mark, by that Hmmmmmmm you are not contemplating a new line of videos, are you?
Ha ha ha ha, Allan ... good one ... nope, these videos won't be mine :)
--Mark
The only problem is that with un-attended cameras, the valdals will just note their location and then go and disable them. YOu can't get a good ID from a single photo of someone in generic clothes and a mask. There is also the MagLite or Lazer Pen method to disable the camera. By shining a bright light into the lense, the resulting photograph would be a worthless blob of light.
The only fool proof method is CCTV.
Either way, such measures will only shift the problem, not eliminate it. The vandals will just go where the cameras aren't. This happened in the Uk when they tried their big anti-crime CCTV system. It was like playing wack-a-mole, nothing really changed.
Sometimes you will hit the jackpot and you catch a vandal. The cameras can still be a deterrent to at least some extent.
#3 West End Jeff
CCTV is nice, however, it can get expensive, plus you need to wire it up, and then hire a guy to watch the camera 24-7.
With this system, you can duct tape it to a tree, building, whatever, switch it on, and leave it, come back in 24 hours and check the film. The whole system sounds remarkably cheap and easy to implement, and, whats more, it can be moved at will about the city to make up for changes in graffiti activity. If the taggers find the camera at one location, you can move the camera to another perch after it is disabled one night, if it's broken, the system is quite easily replaced. The cameras could be placed in pairs, with one set to take photos with a flash, the other set to take photos without a flash, when the other camera triggers it's flash.
The camera is "portable" in that it runs on 5 C batteries and its location is changed periodically to other vandalized sites. The idea is to keep the taggers guessing. One day the camera may not be there, one day it might. Much cheaper than CCTV.
--Mark
"Either way, such measures will only shift the problem, not eliminate it. The vandals will just go where the cameras aren't"
That is partially true.
First of all many vandals are not that bright and would be caught by the cameras. Plus the cameras should be monitored especially in places busy rail terminal. The incident at 14th street could have been stoped in its tracks preventing major service disruption.
Secound. reducung areas where vandals/criminals stikes reduces the areas that need to be patrolled.
advances in modern digital technology can provide clearer pictures and less expensive cameras. For example wireless technolgy has replaced expensive wirring up off cctv systems. In addition Digital technologies allows for clearer stills out of moving pictures, cheaper storage of footage and a means of automatically segmenting relevant images.
If you want to go a step further there is technology used out thier that matches facial images with a datatbase of known criminals.
CCTV systems in major rail stations are needed to help in he fight against terrorism in our transit system.
If there were cameras 25 years ago at TA locations, they would have been the first thing tagged.
It might have been possible that the subway would not have wound up in such sad shape if they had the cameras to help deter graffiti.
#3 West End Jeff
Cameras were tried in stations (Times Square was one, if memory serves) in the late 1970s/early 1980s. The crooks used to use them to wave hi to the cops as they mugged their victims.
David
Somehow, the criminals always find a way to win, no matter what.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi. I'm writing a novel about an MTA cop who patrols the N line. I have many questions about subway curiosities. Anyone out there interersted in a dialog? Questions include - Does anyone have information on how common catwalking is in the subway, or on the N line? Also, how common is the taking of trains for a joyride by youths or train obssessed adults? And does anyone have information on what it is like to be a cop in the subway?
"train obssessed adults" takes many joyrides on the NYC Subway. I'd say about 12000 a week, +/- 2000. Not too many cats get onto the trains though. They just hang out in the stations.
Take Pride,
Brian
Ehh.. I think he meant "catwalking" as in "walking on the catwalk"
as in "the small sidewalk on the side of the tunnel"..
Tho if it's (meow)s you want, ora the Fulton Street Cat which
was a thread here some months ago... ;)
GO away.... TROLL
Peace,
ANDEE
GO away.... TROLL
Peace,
ANDEE
I strikes me as quite revelation that you guys are ablsolutely no help at all when it comes to questions relating to catwalkers, MTA cops, and individuals who have made off with trains.
As an author looking for information on the subway it seems to me that the world of subtalk seems insular and you guys are taking yourselves way too seriously. Especially in your view that a being called "train obsessed adult" is a pejorative term. You guys really need to relax. I guess I should take offense that I am a "book obsessed adult" too? HA!
And by the way... thanks for the non-insular help. I mean... REALLY!
And SUBWAY SURF... whomever you are...learn the definition and use of the word TROLL before you use it.
Peace TRAIN
orbitwhirl
i was going to reply, but i have little info to offer other than this:
when was the last time you saw a cop on the astoria line? (beyond QB).
and b) kids used to walk around the el in the bad old days, but that's when it was the r train, and they lied up trains on the middle track at night, which were a prime target for the graffiti artists. (which ironically is the last i saw of any real police presence along the line - just after all the stations were painted in the early 90's)
1) Catwalking??? What in the haich-eee-doublehockeysticks is that? I mean I once tried to walk my cat, but he didn't want to wear the harness. It wasn't anywhere near the subway though. If you think we walk our cats on subway tracks then you've got another thing coming, mister!
2) MTA Cops??? Most of us avoid them because they might say that photography in the subway is illegal when it isn't. Why don't you just go down to any subway station and talk to them yourself if you are so interested in them?
3) "individuals who have made off with trains" - Why are you asking us this? Read the newspaper. Do you think I would tell you if I made off with a train??? No way am I revealing where I hide my stolen trains!
4)
troll
v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To
utter a posting on Usenetdesigned to attract predictable
responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase
"trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream
"trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a
likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post
that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look
even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to
the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate
troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See
also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1;
regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a
newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to
annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by
the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic
at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly
creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming
characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of
life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." 3.
[Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS
students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab
policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves
lurking in dark cavelike corners.
Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower
category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing
some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See
also Troll-O-Meter.
v.,intr. 1. Music. To sing heartily or gaily.
Which one of the above definitions of "troll" do you claim not to be or do?
'Train Obsessed Adults?'
I prefer the term, 'Railfan', thank you.
There are also 'Train-Obsessed' youths as well. You can find these ' Train-obsessed' people all around the world. Think about it. :-)
In tender times like these, you have curiosities...
And we have storage areas...... like Bellevue & Alcatraz.
"train obsessed adults"????!!!!!
Sir, I am a ferroequinologist but I will answer to Railfan.
Well, then I guess we can assume you aren't siderodromophobic.
According to World Almanac there are at least 10 cities or towns around the world, 8 in the USA that have the name Brighton. BUT NOT ONE SEA BEACH.
Off to Seattle tomorrow to ride the wonderful old Melbourne trolley cars.
Way to go Bob! Just bring us back some apples please. I love it when our Brighton line is recognized in the World Alamanc as it is used in 8 different cities or towns in the USA. No wonder when the R32's made their splashy debut back in 1963, they were called "Brightliners" and not Sea Beachers.
I live in Winchester Va, which is the Apple Capitol of the east, so I doubt I will bring back apples. Salmon maybe. In fact i do not like apples, Apple Juice yes, apples no
Be sure to check out IVARs if you're into Seafood, great regional (I guess, dunno how big they are) restaurant. In addition to the old Melbourne Street Cars, check out the bus tunnel, pretty soon, if the city gets it's way, my Bredas will be out on the street with all the *shudder* normal busses! Also there's pike place market, but I suppose you won't be cooking, otherwise i'd say get a dungenous crab, huge mothers, they're a meal in themselves, not like these tiny durn blue crabs we get out here. But Pikes place market is still good for artsy-fartsy trinkets and stuff, although the last time I was in there it was really yuppified, but then I think it's always been that way, I just was too young to notice.
Oh, of course, the Ferries, they're fun to watch come and go, for three bucks you can ride the two newest ships out to Bainbridge island and back, that's like an hour round trip.
And finally, check out the monorail, it's remarkably smooth, fast, and quiet. The Seattle monorail is a shining example of how monorail can be done correctly, it just happens to be on a small scale. But it's the fastest monorail in the world (I think), at 65 mph once on the 5th ave straightaway. I'll have to look, but I think the new Green Line got the green light, so Seattle will be getting a new Monorail line from NW Seattle to Southwest Seattle (this seeming one sidedness is to avoid competetion with the mayor's LRT, LINK, which will run the really good runs, like the IND and IRT duking it out)
You see that, our Brighton line is just special like that, mo disrespect to the Sea Beach [and Fred ;-)]. Go Brighton line 8-D!!!!.
Why don't you carry Bob's bags and socks while you're at it. You would be a real hit in the Sudan.
>>> According to World Almanac there are at least 10 cities or towns around the world, 8 in the USA that have the name Brighton. BUT NOT ONE SEA BEACH <<<
That may be true Bob, but there are thousands of places all over the world where if you ask a local "Which way to the sea beach?" you will get directions, but if you ask "Which way to the Brighton?" you will get a blank stare and shrugs of the shoulder. :-)
Have a good trip, but why didn't you go to Melbourne?
Tom
Been to Melbourne in 2000, took the train to Brighton Beach. Can t find my video of it though and am I pissed
Brighton and Pissed. Hey Bob, do you see the connection?
Bravo Old Tom. But you might as well have been talking to the furniture in your house because Old Bob is tone deaf. There are so many Brightons because it is old and dull. It takes something unique to have just one of its kind----like the Sea Beach. And besides, when I want to cool off in the summer I will go to the Sea-Beach, while Bob will have trouble just finding the shower.
It's really funny that the Brighton Line has so many different control houses and mezzanines that are not all the same dull drabby look as they do on the Sea Beach Line. No wonder that 11 stations on the Brighton Line have been renovated since 1986, while stations on the Sea Beach Line ALL look like Parkside Ave (with the exception of the exterior of Bay Parkway), dull, drabby and in badly need of repair.
You can thank the TA for that. They show their favoritism towards the Brighton, which if you had been keeping up with events would have learned ages ago.
I do keep up with events, either more people ride the Brighton Line than the Sea Beach line (Fact!) or there are more political connections alongside the neighborhoods of Flatbush, Park Slope, Midwood, Sheepshead Bay, etc. (Most probably). But seriously, I hope NYCT will get it's act together and start renovating some of your stations Fred. I do believe in equal opportunity, and it's time the Sea Beach will get it's due, however NYCT's plans to eliminate the express tracks on your line is a bit misguided and unnecessary.
For people living east of Ocean Avenue and south of "The JUnction", most people who take a bus to the train hit the Brighton Line first, with its express service, and use it, rather than travel an additional 2 miles for slower service to Manhattan via the Sea Breeze.
That's pretty much why Brighton service has been higher than the other Southern division lines.
--Mark
For the record: this does not make brighton better.
Hey J, you stupid or something? Come on, you must know by now you can't reason with Brighton Express Bob. If you really need him to tell you something important have him look up your ass to see when the next load is coming.
Ha, our Brighton line is special! But even if all of this is true lets not get beside ourselves and think our line is superior to others so people don't take it the wrong way.
Yesterday, someone (or some people) left 38 black cardboard boxes all over the entire Union Square complex with the word 'FEAR" on them. It took an NYPD Sergeant to discover one of these boxes, thus the shutdown of Union Square began.
I ask myself one simple question: How could (s)he or they commit a brazen act, when there are thousands of people who use this station, (and under the noses of NYPD Transit District #4) and no one else noticed the act that was taking place? If someone did laft a "Box" on a bench, or taped it on a wall, did anyone report this to the nearby District Office? Sad to say this, customers are still not minding themselves in protecting us from any possible terrorist acts.
i was standing at the uptown union square platform last night. i noticed the signal by the 10th car mark on the uptown express track said NO KEY BY. now if this signal cant be keyed by, why is there a yellow mark on the 3rd rail?????
You are dealing with the semantics of the word 'NO'. I think the sign means NO as in "not permitted" rather than you are unable to.
Then almost all of the automatics would have No KEY BY on them.
Actually, it means that the key=by feature has been disabled. If you bridge the IJ, the stop arm will not go down. You must detrain and step on it so that it retains.
I thought that the ability to key by was an automatic consequence of placing the IJ just before the stop arm, and that "no key by" signals had the IJ alongside or just past the stop arm. No, I've never actually bothered trying to verify that hypothesis, as you can see.
So if the IJ is before the stop arm, why doesn't it go down?
Singals close to stations have been modified and marked "No Key By" as a result of the finding of cause on the accident on the Queens Blvd local track.
If an operator misses the mark long he could accidently "key by" a signal that is close to the end of the platform and not know it was the reason I believe in maknig this change.
They change the signal on A4 at Kings Hwy to no key by but it is so far past the end of the platform two doors would not have platformed if the an accidental keyby would have happened.
They now have removed the no key by feature.
"No Key By" signals have altered circuits, similar to a homeball, where the stop will only drive down when the signal clears, and only retain when if it is down when the train crosses the IJ.
Lou is correct in his assesment of why those signals are in place.
Some very few of the BMT "Manual Key" signals are out there with the key by feature removed, and have become "No Key By" signals.
The only way to operate these is to climb down and step on the stop, as Alex L said.
Many of these signals are now 10-second-key-by signals, at which the stop will not drive clear until a time delay has elapsed after the IJ is bridged with the signal red. This gives you the protection against run throughs at station stops, but keeps the T/O in the cab and off the tracks if the signal legitimately must be keyed as during a signal trouble.
Of course, the signals with the 10 second feature are not identified as such out in the field. When you key a signal and the stop arm doesn't drive, you have to wait out the ten seconds before calling Control to report the defect.
Signal refers to them as "UK" signals, so maybe a British Union Jack flag should be painted on the left side, so you can see it you're about to key by, but not if you're about to run through.
:-) Dave
Did they "just add a relay" (e.g. PN150EVT)
Heh, yeah. some jokes never die! [and for no good reason!]
That would slove your problem at 30W also, since you can get a box to bolt to the side of a line case which holds one B1 or PN-150.
The whole reason that bridging the gap works is because when a train passes the clear signal, the trip arm can't pop until the train has passed. To accomplish this the arm will stay down if both the blacks in front and behind it are de-energized. No key by woudld be accomplished by putting the trip before the joint, not by disabling the joint bridging effect.
No key by woudld be accomplished by putting the trip before the joint, not by disabling the joint bridging effect.
What if you have to change an existing signal for AK to No-K? Would you rather move the entire stop (and chip out the roadbed etc), or just make some wiring changes in the case?
No key by IS accomplished by excluding the track circuit from the equation unless the stop is already clear.
this the arm will stay down if both the [tr]acks in front and behind it are de-energized
True only for a home signal. -and again only if the stop is already clear.
The change would be made by moving the track circut joint.
If the de-energization method is disabled, then why dosen't the trip pop as soon as the train passes it and drops the signal to red?
As usual, you speak with authority but You don't understand
the way it works: In typical Board of Transportation
Automatic Block Signal practice (i.e. what became the standard
for most automatics on the NYCT system) the stop mechanism operating
coil circuit is via a front contact of the H(ome) relay in parallel
with a back contact of the Track Relay in advance of the signal.
The IJ is placed a few feet to the rear of the trip so one can
cross into the next track circuit and drive down the stop.
The No-Key-By modification creates a stick circuit through
the circuit controller box in the stop. When the arm is driven
down AND the TR in advance is down, that sticks the arm. So,
you have to bridge the joint first, then get out and step on the
arm. Once you've pushed it all the way down, it will retain.
Moving an IJ in the subway is HARD. You have to get track involved
to crop and drill the rail, you have to chip out for new bootlegs,
etc. Moving a few wires in the case is EASY.
Ok, I thought that when dave said you had to get out and step on it, you had to then tie it down to get by.
I was quoting Alex L who said:
You must detrain and step on it so that it retains.
which is correct.
Interestingly, the old BMT signals with the key on the signal head were arranged with the signal 2' in advance of the IJ, and the stop 3' beyond that. Not a lot of room to do the "Shunt-N-Step" -but you didn't need to!
anyone know why the 5 train was running on 7av today???? the sign even said 5 bronx express, 5 7av express, 5 to flatbush avenue.
??????
Delay in 2 Service.
Reroute the 5 up 7th Ave.
5 substitutes for the 2.
Demolition.
If early in the AM rush, it could be the incident at Bowling Green.
What incident at BG?
Welcome to SubTALK!
Welcome to Subtalk? I've been here for the last 3 years or so.
I heard this morning there was a smoke condition at Bowling Green. Don't know anything else about that.
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=419788
The 2 and 5 swap routes in Manhattan at the slightest provocation. It's not uncommon at all. If it was just one 5 train, the reason could have been something as simple as a small pocket of congestion on the East Side; if it was a stream of 5 trains, they were probably getting past a blockage somewhere on the East Side.
Why it was on the 2, who knows. The fact it had 5 signs for 7th Avenue, someone at the MTA had the brains to add that route into the R142s and R142As. I just hope they also program the voices to announce that "This is a Bronx bound 5 train via 7th Avenue." I am sure everyone is pleased to realize they are not going up Lex even though the train declared it was a 5.
I saw a N/B 5 at Chambers today, on the local track. Left uptown on going exp. Forced a #3 to wait outside the station.
What was the 3 doing behind the 5 on the local track? Don't you mean it had to wait in the station? The homeball is north of the station.
The #3 waited south of Chambers on the Uptown exp track, much like the practice at any station where locals cross in front of an express.
There was a list of Problems on the Lex Line for the PM Rush.
The main on was Gap fillers didn't come out at 14 St on the S/B Express track. As a Result the No.4,5,6 had heavy delays from 125 St to Grand Central. Then all train on the local track from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. This happen from 4:40PM to 5:20PM.
The main on was Gap fillers didn't come out at 14 St on the S/B Express track. As a Result the No.4,5,6 had heavy delays from 125 St to Grand Central. Then all train on the local track from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge.
Why didn't they just run the express as normal but skipping 14th St then wait til the night to fix the gap fillers?
Thats a good question and I have no clue. Also Grand Central tower DID NOT turn ANY train at 86 St or 59 St. So everyone just sat in the stations and between until they got movement. I was sitting at 96 Street for 30 Minutes. Also since nothing was turned back for Uptown service there was a big gap in #6 service until a train made it to Brooklyn Bridge.
On Jan 27th, Amtrak's Pennsylvanian will once again return to its former route from New York Penn Station to Pittsburgh PA. The Pennsylvanian was extended to Chicago several years ago to try to capitalize on the intermodal express freight market. However, its wee hours arrival and departures from Chicago and late nite (often erratic) westward departures in Ohio made the train very lightly patronized.
There is some buzz about having to train possibly turn in Cleveland or Toledo, but for right now, the "Almost Pure PRR"* train to Chicago will end its daily run in PBH. Persons wanting to continue on will have to catch the connecting 3 rivers or Capitol limited.
*The Pennsylvanian followed the PRR Main Line to Pittburgh, then the PRR Fort Wayne Line to Alliance OH then the PRR Cleveland Line to Cleveland.
The Pennsylvanian and Capitol Ltd. followed the same route through Ohio & Indiana. That means passengers at:
Alliance
lose 1/2 their long-distance, intercity train options, now only seeing the Capitol Ltd.
Passenters at:
Cleveland
Elyria
Toledo
Waterloo
South Bend
Hammond-Whiting
lose 1/3 their intercity train options, now only seeing the Lake Shore Ltd. and Capitol Ltd., and passengers at:
Sandusky
Elkhart
lose 1/2 their intercity train service, now only seeing the Lake Shore Ltd. if the Capitol Ltd.'s intercity stops are not altered.
There may be more options for local service at Amtrak stops within Chicago's Indiana suburbs, but I don't have time to research it now.
It is simply amazing how many new trolls have appeared recently, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps the strike has got lots of people thinking about the subway more.
... but just because many feel that the 'sh*t is about
to hit the Axiflow', DOESN'T mean they gotta bring it on here
in this grand cozy Pirmann pod.. :s
errrm... maybe they DO... but still, a sudden outburst
of troll posting shouldn't upset the applecart... not
when the killfile is polished and warming...
but just because many feel that the 'sh*t is about
to hit the Axiflow'
Nice. The way you took a common phrase and 'subtalkized' it.
Better an axiflo than a GE wavy blade (R-6-2).
I have purposefully stayed on the sidelines through all this strike discussion.
wayne
I have purposefully stayed on the sidelines through all this strike discussion.
If that's you're thing, more power to ya'.
Nice. The way you took a common phrase and 'subtalkized' it.
Weel, as CI Peter says "Down in the hole, SPEAK ENGLISH"...
After 2 to 3 years of daily visits to SubTALK... heh..
that's really me SPEAKING ENGLISH.... it grows on ye, chap.
1sf9
Sufferer of SubTALK Syndrome... and PROUD of it! :)
"It is simply amazing how many new trolls have appeared recently, IMO. "
Obviously there is one brand new poster who is stirring the pot to a considerable degree.
But the other new posters strike me as making reasonable, transit-related, non-inflammatory contributions. They may be new, but with one exception they don't look like trolls to me.
Obviously there is one brand new poster who is stirring the pot to a considerable degree.
But the other new posters strike me as making reasonable, transit-related, non-inflammatory contributions. They may be new, but with one exception they don't look like trolls to me.
If you mean that G Train Rider is in the pot-stirring category, I'll just repeat what I said yesterday - he's merely expressing, a little roughly to be sure, exactly what an awful lot of people are thinking.
he's merely expressing, a little roughly to be sure, exactly what an awful lot of people are thinking.
Assuredly, there is someone for every POV. The problem that I have is the fact that his opinion is made not just roughly, but with utter disregard for transit workers at all.
It's a common human frailty? Why hold the adminiswigs who MADE the bad decisions responsible when you can bitch-slap the poor schlump at the news stand instead? This is the first time in MY memory since the MTA came to pass in the late 60's that our Governor couldn't be BOTHERED to sit both sides down at a table and demand a solution from both sides or he'd bash heads. After all, it's HIS agency and HIS employees and if it's going nowhere, then it's HIS job ...
But no, let's beat up the guy or gal in the token booth instead. :\
Finally, someone who understands!
Everyone here seems to think that TA employees are rich and selfish. Asking for a raise is apparently off limits.
Better scrap asking mr. boss man about that promotion. Times are too tough for even a year end bonus. And if YOU don't like it, YOU are just a dumb jack-off. Better not rally with your workmates either!
You mean the one who was quick to lunge itself into
the collective lap of others.. forcing us to get to
know them in only their second or third stamplick?
In my 2 or 3 years on this board, I'd NEVER evvvvver
seen a quicker killfile addendum..
I've only had to use the killfire ONCE...nice to have insurance when you need it, though.
Amen, brah.... but I'm faaaaaar past one killfile occupant.
WEll, I am a regular SubTalk poster with a new name...I am formerly Cleanairbus (even though I will always be known as Cleanairbus)...now I am "Transit Is My Drug" ("TIMD")...
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
I was Phillyguy two years ago.
You might find this delicious and this is normally a BusTalk topic, but I'm putting it here because I think that your reaction might be very different to mine.
On one hand, I see that the plan includes the five boroughs with carpooling areas, but now that I'm hearing the MTA PLANS TO RUN regular bus service from Queens and Staten Island. I saw the MTA slots for bus layovers, but I thought that the planners might have been passing a joint as they wrote that. Meanwhile, the Staten Island Advance assumes all of their buses will be tucked away in the case of a strike.
The person that I heard it from is still involved in tweaking the plans, too. I'm going to assume that there won't be anything white and blue on the street. It seems the take here is the same.
The MTA website page on strike contingenncies states that NYC transit buses in Queens and SI will run, but with altered routes and schedules.
Queens and SI buses are under another union. ATU, I believe...
What about track workers? Same union? Can projects continue during a strike that would normally divert or delay subway traffic?
Track workers=Same Union.
ATU's contracta are up 12/15 as well i think......
ATU's contracta are up 12/15 as well i think......
Maybe so, but maybe they do not want to strike?
Elias
They are 2 for 2 so far: they have followed TWU out the door in both strikes. This is why the MTA website says that they SHOULD be running.
Correct. Contracts between NYCT and ATU Locals 726 and 1056 (Staten Island and Queens, respectively) expire on the 15th just as NYCT's contract with the TWU does.
David
ATU guys in Queens and SI, while they may not necessarily officially strike, probably won't or may not be able to pull out because TWU may block the depot and/or TA won't allow them on the road for safety reasons.
What they might be referring to are those two south shore express runs that Academy runs. I think the numbers are X-23 & X-24. There is also a 144 route to Jersey City that might run. I forget who runs that one.
Trans Hudson Express, which is part of Red and Tan Lines, runs the 144. They WILL be running.
I read an amazing story in one of the tabloids yesterday and now I can't remember where I saw it. Apparently a man waiting for a commuter train somewhere in India felt the call of nature and walked to the end of the platform to relieve himself. While doing so, he looked up and saw that a piece of rail was missing from the track and the train was nearing the station. Apparently he immediately whipped off his red shirt and waved it hysterically to warn the engineer about the problem. The train operator saw the man and stopped the train before the first car reached the area of the missing piece of rail.
The man was credited with saving hundreds of lives. India's commuter rail network is very heavily used and the cars are often packed.
If I can find this story I will post it.
Who stole the rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
PLEEEEEEEEEEASE tell me he zipped up shop BEEEEEEFORE
removing his shirt to wave... Otherwise the engineer
halted the train at the sight of his.......hahem....
Chia Garden./
PLEEEEEEEEEEASE tell me he zipped up shop BEEEEEEFORE
removing his shirt to wave... Otherwise the engineer
halted the train at the sight of his.......hahem....
Chia Garden./
It was in the December 10, 2002 Post under the Weird But True section of the World News portion of the paper. I was a little off on details but here's the story.
December 10, 2002 -- A pair of men's boxer shorts saved hundreds of lives. Nimai Das was relieving himself near the train tracks in Kopai, India, when he noticed that part of the track was missing and a train was approaching.
Das whipped off his red underpants and frantically waved them, catching the driver's attention. The train was stopped just a few feet from the broken track, preventing a tragedy that could have killed hundreds on board.
I reminds me of a story in an old schoolbook that my mother still has of a girl who grabbed her father's railroad latern in order to prevent a najor accident, that her mother had saved after he had died in a railroading accident. There was a terrible flood one night and a railroad bridge had been washed away. The girl went out in the driving rain to warn an approaching train that the bridge had washed away. The engineer saw the girl waving the lantern and he was able to stop the train before it went into the river. The girl was given a lifetime pass to travel on the railroad and the lantern was put into a museum.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember that story too from my 1960s "readers". She got the lifetime pass and could also flag down trains near her home.
If I'm not mistaken, her house was quite close to the railroad tracks.
#3 West End Jeff
Here's another amazing story. #1 Brighton Express Bob is back on line and he's as dull as ever.
I don't read any of his messages anyway as a rule. Maybe that is why he is as dull as anything.
#3 West End Jeff
I also wanted to add that those were the teaching materials that my mother used and she kept them in the house and I would look at them when I was young back in the mid and late 1970s.
#3 West End Jeff
Moral #2: Always wear a clean pair of underwear...you never know when it'll come in handy to drop 'em. :)
Was his CHIA trimmed??
I guess there was no third rail :)
--Mark
DAMN, bro ... don't go THERE! :)
After all, SOME of us are keeping the BIG secret that 76 St station actually exists in the Punjab. Shhhhhh!
Anyone ever see the film "The Railway Children". There is a scene where one of the children spots the broken track and flags down the train with a pair or red undies. Nice story.
Simon
Swindon UK
From the request of a Subtalker, I made up a map of a streetcar/light rail system for Atlanta:
This plan includes all the publicly proposed rail ideas that are currently floating around. My whole plan simply adds a streetcar system on top of the proposed plans and integrates them to form a coherent, seamless transit system.
The existing subway system is expanded to extend beyond the current West, South and North line terminals to what is indicated to the map. A branch east of Candler Park on the East Line will follow I-20 to Lithonia. The branch uses the existing provision that was meant for the Tucker-North Dekalb line All these extensions are currently proposed.
The currently proposed light rail lines are the Peachtree St/Rd Line, Northwest Line, Perimeter Line and the Belt (Circle) Line. These lines will be fast lines that run mostly on its own ROW except Peachtree St, which will be a streetcar route. The Belt Line is odd because it follows abandoned railroad ROW, so its route does not intersect cleanly with MARTA subway lines. Because of that, some creative work needs to be done for subway transfers, like what is proposed below.
The light rail lines will run dual mode rolling stock that can run on both the light rail and subway trackage with both third rail shoes and pantographs. The rolling stock will be like MUNI’s, where they use both high platform subway stations and where they run on their own light rail tracks, stairs move down in order to have low platform access. With this, you can have any combination of routes where light rail and subway merge. One problem would be light floor height compared to platform height of the subway platforms. IIRC, in general, high floor light rail floors are slightly lower than subway floors. Another problem I can see will be bottlenecks along the East/West line where you’ll have up to four routes running on the same two track line. Assuming that 30 tph is the operating limit, 8 minute headways per route would be needed. This shouldn’t be that much of a problem considering that the light rail routes probably will have a longer headway than every 8 minutes (most likely 10 minutes at the peak), so the subway routes can borrow the extra capacity. The Circle Line will be divided into four segments and light rail routes will be able to terminate at West End and Lindbergh Center, or continue down the subway tracks at Ashby or Inman Park. At Ashby, a light rail route can also continue past Ashby without merging with the subway. It may be possible to allow West End routes to merge with the North/South Line, but since that line is currently the busiest in the system, I think it should run exclusively subway, especially if you have lots of people transferring with the streetcar routes that intersect above Five Points. At Lindbergh Center, the light rail will parallel the North Line until the split south of Lenox. At Lenox, the light rail will merge with the Northeast Line. This is so that there can be no merging conflicts between the two subway routes and with light rail routes.
I designed the streetcar system mainly by looking bust bus routes and making a connected system. The streetcars will be low floor and will be forbidden to run on subway trackage. They can, however, run on any of the light rail lines. With this, there are hundreds (realistically tens) of possible route combos that can be created. The light rail cars technically will be able to run on the streetcar routes, but since they are oriented towards faster service, they most likely will not. The lines will run either with traffic on the street, or run on the street, but separated from traffic, whichever is the most ideal for that street. There is no physical track connection between streetcar and subway tracks at Five Points. There will also be no connections to light rail at Ponce de Leon and Circle Line NE, Edgewood Ave and Circle line NE and at Peachtree Rd and Circle Line NW because the Circle Line is grade separated from the street and the areas make it hard for a smooth connection. Routes running on Boulevard and Moreland will pass under the East Line, and passengers will have to walk to reach the nearest station. There will be four access points between the light rail and streetcar tracks: at Bankhead, West End, between Boulevard and Moreland, and at Northside Dr.
Any questions, comments, suggestions?
The second link is wrong, here are the publicly proposed lines
Those are some ambitious plans, even without the streetcars. It would be terrific if they come to pass. Of course, Atlanta is most definitely a "can-do" city when it comes to getting major projects done, in sharp contrast to you-know-where.
C'mon, Subtalkers, don't you all like my map? :-)
Yeah, there has been great enthusiasm (sp?) over all the propoed lines. I think if the Peachtree St/Rd streetcar gets built, then most people are going to want to expand it. The day after the AJC ran the article, people worte in telling where else the streetcar should run, so imagine what people will want after they get to ride it. My plan shows a practical example of what they could do.
Right now, all the projects are in limbo because our new governor-elect hasn't publicly made any plans for what he wants for transportation, so funding is uncertain.
Unfortunately, Atlanta is -- or at least was the last time I spent more than a few days there -- a "can't do" city when it comes to anyone other than students and the poor riding public transit.
Given the office park sprawl around Atlanta and the attitude of many of the locals, I suspect they've painted themselves into a traffic nightmare for many years to come.
CG
There seem to be two directions in which Atlanta is pulling. In some ways it's progressive. It built MARTA in an age when few cities were building new heavy rail systems, and it has pushed forward on transit-oriented developments around its stations. Atlanta has also managed to make a downtown that, at least during the day, is much livelier than the downtowns of a lot of other cities. On the other hand, it's sprawling like you said, with both office parks and residential development. I think an urban growth limit might be a good idea in Atlanta. It would do a lot to stem sprawl and to help ensure the success of the other progressive enterprises Atlanta has undertaken.
Mark
The #1 complant about MARTA fro the public is that it doesn't go where they want to go. In general, they are correct. By building an extensive system that covers all the major areas (like mine), more people will start moving into more denser, livlier areas.
Intown Atlanta (all the area inside I-285) is growing, though, simply because people are sick of the suburbs. Soon the public transit system will have to grow to accomodate the people. That will attract even more people.
I might also add that I recall Rob telling us that a lot of Atlanta's business leaders were supporting some of the new rail projects, so there might be some reason to be hopeful.
Mark
That's correct, see my response to Charles.
That traffic nightmare is already here and the attitudes are already changing. Two of the four transit line proposals (Perimeter, Peachtree St) were concieved by nieghborhood business associations. The Circle Line is activly endorsed by the City Coucil President, and the Northwest Line is being studied by the State, with support by area businesses. You're right about right now, MARTA isn't as useful as it could be. To ride it, you generally have to take another mode of transport (bus, auto). Once the system is established that you can take the train from point to point for many destinations, then it will finally useful.
It looks great! I had a thought though...I wonder if somehow the Lithonia line and the Northwest light rail line could somehow be combined into a third heavy rail line that would create a European-style triangle of subway lines. I know I'm switching modes here, but that's what fantasy maps are for!
Mark
I see you remember my fantasy map I posted some time ago. I'll see if I can upload the map onto the web later today.
I had another question: If the circle line's right-of-way doesn't happen to intersect the heavy rail lines near existing stations, might it be worthwhile to just build four new heavy rail stations, one at each point where the circle intersects the axes of the heavy rail lines? That would make fancy train maneuvering unecessary to make transfers.
Mark
The Belt [Cirle] line would intersect the subway lines just close enough (~600-1000 ft) to a new station so that they would be too close to an existing one, so there lies the problem.
Could a little bit of realignment of the circle line's track fix this?
Mark
Hello
Unfortunately the belt lines ROW already exists. The beauty of the plan is that fact, it uses 90% abandoned RR ROW. MARTA just this week announced the launching of the belt-line transit study which is a +/- $1million study of the proposal. Interestingly enough, the whole thing started as a thesis by a Georgia Tech City Planning student....
-Paul "Atlanta Transit" Grether
Newsday Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-bloom1212b,0,7038857.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dright%2Darea
Note that Mayor Bloomberg has publicly called for extending PATH to Newark Airport.
I have not heard anything from the PA regarding the feasibility study which was authorized and requested nearly two years ago.
Her's the link to the City's press release:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2002b/pr328-02.html
And here's the part about transit:
CONNECTING LOWER MANHATTAN
The Mayor stressed that transportation enhancements are pivotal to the City's plans to make downtown more accessible to residents, employees and visitors. Initiatives embraced by the City include:
* Direct, one-seat airport access by extending the AirTrain system from JFK through a new tunnel to Lower Manhattan and by extending the PATH train from Newark's Penn Station to Newark Liberty Airport. The new tunnel between downtown and JFK would also connect the area to any Long Island Railroad train at Jamaica Station.
* Increased investment in ferry service to bring more people to Lower Manhattan with links to other parts of the five boroughs, regional service to the suburbs, connections to tourist destinations, and potentially to LaGuardia airport.
* A new bus parking facility to provide commuter and charter buses a place to park between entering and leaving the City in order to reduce congestion on the streets of Lower Manhattan.
* In addition to the construction of the new PATH station at the site, a new transit hub at Fulton and Broadway that would untangle the knot of fifteen subway lines that converge downtown, and then connect to the PATH and AirTrain.
"Lower Manhattan's competition to be a global center isn't just Midtown or even Chicago or Los Angeles. Increasingly, it is London and Berlin and Hong Kong. In this worldwide competition, easy access becomes more and more important. We must invest in making downtown more accessible - both to the rest of the world, and to residents of the metropolitan region," Mayor Bloomberg said.
I'm just wondering where this new tunnel for the Airtrain would be, and what path through Queens and Brooklyn is being considered.
According to the 1010WINS website, Mayor Bloomberg announced today his view of what the new downtown should look like. The following is of particular interest to SubTalkers:
"Perhaps the most ambitious part of the mayor's proposal would be to extend the AirTrain from Kennedy Airport to lower Manhattan via a new tunnel, and extend the PATH train from Newark's Penn Station to Newark's Liberty Airport. A new PATH train is currently being built at the trade center site to replace the one destroyed in the terrorist attack.
The mayor also called for Fulton Street to be extended river-to-river and to become -- along with Broadway -- one of the area's two major arteries, and become the site of two transit hubs and sit adjacent to a new public market."
I'm all for extending the AirTrain to lower Manhattan. Better yet, they should try to run a subway line from lower Manhattan to JFK.
#3 West End Jeff
I can't tell whether his plan calls for a whole new line thru Brooklyn from the airport, or if instead it involves running AirTrain over the LIRR tracks in Brooklyn, then thru a new tunnel from Atlantic Ave to downtown.
II wish we both knew what is up Bloomberg's sleeve.
#3 West End Jeff
But isn't Fulton closed to cars during midday (at least in the summer) near Nassau or Broad St. and used for pedestrians only
"But isn't Fulton closed to cars during midday (at least in the summer) near Nassau or Broad St. and used for pedestrians only "
I think Fulton is open all day and it's John Street that is closed between Broadway and William. But it's been 8 years since I worked regularly downtown.
CG
Fulton St at the seaport (between South St and Water St) is closed to traffic at all times. Fulton St between Gold St and Broadway is closed weekdays in the middle of the day. John St between Broadway and (I think) Nassau is also closed weekdays in the middle of the day. And while we're talking about that area, Nassau St is closed weekdays most of the day between somewhere around Maiden Lane and somewhere around Beekman.
Thanks David. I go walking around that area a few times each year when the weather's nice and couldn't remember the exact street closings (for vehicles)
(I go walking around that area a few times each year when the weather's nice and couldn't remember the exact street closings (for vehicles)
There are far more of them now than before the disaster, for security reasons. And many that aren't pedesitrianized are guarded by the police, with cars let through by invitation only.
If you look under Maps on the TA website, you'll see a Downtown Map. It shows the no-traffic streets.
Most interesting. Nice to see that there's a plan that doesn't involve screwing Cranberry riders. But how does the 'no raise at all' TA plan to build this?
Here's a link to the NY Times story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/nyregion/12CND-DEVE.html
I didn't see the Second Avenue Subway mentioned.
Nothing about 2d Ave subway in the mayor's press release:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2002b/pr328-02.html
Second Avenue subway? What's THAT? Oh yeah, that train that goes to 76th Street. Now I remember. :)
Because he knows it's not really going to happen.
From the article--
"In addition, he proposed changes that would make Battery Park the Lower Manhattan version of the Sheep Meadow in Central Park."
Gee, I've never been mugged by a sheep before.
Gee, I've never been mugged by a sheep before.
Yeah, mugging is the sort of behavior I'd expect from geese, not sheep.
Mark
Perhaps the most ambitious part of the mayor's proposal would be to extend the AirTrain from Kennedy Airport to lower Manhattan via a new tunnel, and extend the PATH train from Newark's Penn Station to Newark's Liberty Airport. A new PATH train is currently being built at the trade center site to replace the one destroyed in the terrorist attack.
I'd much rather see the Second Avenue subway.
Here's a link to the New York Independent System Operator's "Major Emergency Report". I'm not sure what it all means, but it looks like someone tripped a mighty big circuit breaker.
http://www.nyiso.com/oasis/emergency/pdf/major_emerg_record/me_dec_11_2002.pdf
I took a look at the report and I was just a few miles from where it all happened.
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks for that.
Iced tree limb fall on a 345 kV line from Sprain Brook in Westchester which fed Manhattan. Con Ed pulled power from Jersey to compensate when their own generators couldn't make up the loss without importing extra power from Jersey. Sounds like 77th Street had an intestinal event trying to find watts for tots ...
anyone notice a power dip around 3:30 this afternoon. we are one here in seacuas nj
Just checked the event recorder here which "saw" the 56 power events last night, nothing at those time coordinates up here outside of Smallbany, so chances are it was local distribution down your way. We're in an unusual setup here since we're on a mountainside - no "street distribution" up here on our hill, we get a drop DIRECTLY off the grid (465 kV) here so we get to see the "major hits" (also why we have an MG set on it since there's many "harmonics" and other "dirty hits" that'd cream digital electronics if we didn't make our own sine waves on site ... but no, no sign of anything at that time. There WERE two "dropped cycles" events at 17:05:30 and again at 17:06:40 but that's it ...
I've heard GE PowerSystems up that way has been known to cause NYMO a few headaches when they test stuff....
What I can't stand is I'm within eyesight of the Glenwood Keyspan generating station and we STILL go out more than we should >:(
Though the last time was quite spectacular - I saw the light flash up in East Hills on Glen Cove Rd comming home. Thought it was lightning at first (that's how bright is was)
We're getting ready to ship an elevator controller next week that's two phase AC. 4 wire input. With a reverse phase relay. The only one we found that will even work is this GAL one that's actually got a mecury slosh tube and all. Looks like a 20's vintage design (probbably is...) Zero electronics on it. Single speed AC controller - nobody makes a VFD that runs on 2 phase AC or a single phase that's in the power range.
Going to the Philly area, I think. This is supposedly not uncommon. I didn't even know 2 phase AC was even used anywhere anymore....
Yeah, Generous Electric has been known to do wonderous things in Schenectady every now and then, but normally the light shows are generated "on campus" with their own rotating metal. We're on that line, ANOTHER reason to have an MG set to keep the signals from going dark here.
And yeah, our fantabulous Paturkey PSC sold ALL of upstate's generators to outsiders, from Pacific Gas and Electric to Duke Power. I'm wondering where our electrons are coming from these days, but I note on the little labels something about "Electrique de" and the rest is obliterated. Hmmm. :)
and that why i get phone calls about digtal equipment that is locked or tossing error that a safety program is engaged from all over the world.
Nothing provides for a better "UPS" than rotating metal generating local sine waves free of harmonics, spikes and lost cycles. Learned the hard way that those "backup systems" had a tendency to pass along the spikes and then hold up machines so they wouldn't reboot. Quite an irritant when the machine in question was up on a mountaintop at a transmitter site. :)
Sometimes low tech *is* the correct answer.
Are you referring to motor-generator set between you and the grid or a self-contained diesel unit?
If you want to go lo-tech you sould make a statement against AC power. Build a rotary converter and convert to 24 volt DC. Think different.
Heh. There's an MG between the grid and the internal distribution on one phase of 110. There's also an Allis Chalmers diesel since upstate, power going away for anywhere from 2 - 5 days isn't at all unusual. We even have firewood technology if required. You learn to do that when you're in Bruno country since you need a little light and a little heat to be able to find your bootstraps so you can pull on them. And the submarine batteries are 48 volts, makes the telco happier. :)
Both Philly and Chicago have large sections of 2 phaze power. My PECO friend told me all about it one day.
Dave's Train Pictures just posted some shots of various New York cars at the Museum of Transportation near St. Louis, Missouri. I thought some people might be interested. I hope that putting several photos in one post is okay! Here's New York Central S-motor #113:
...and H&M car #256:
...and Brooklyn "BU" semiconvertible #1365:
All photos were taken this year. Enjoy!
Frank Hicks
Having that H&M car running across NJ to Newark would be awesome.
The Brooklyn BU #1365 looks to be in the best condition of the two passenger rail cars.
#3 West End Jeff
I haven't been out to the National Museum of Transport outside St. Louis in many years (maybe 17 or 18), but I found it very depressing -- much of the equipment just sitting out in the weather and rusting away.
-- Ed Sachs
While there is still a lot of equipment outdoors, a fair amount is under shelter or in barns.
I'll echo Dave's comments. The Museum of Transportation has changed immeasurably in the past 15-20 years. The St. Louis County Parks Department (I think I've got that right!) took over the museum in 1985 (IIRC), and since that time has built several barns and put virtually the entire electric collection under cover. The only intact pieces of electric equipment that aren't in a barn of some sort are the Milwaukee Road bi-polar, the S-Motor, the IT Class "B" and that goofy thing from Sweden or wherever. In the past six years, a trolley line has been built and three cars have been made operational - a CTA spam can, a Philly PCC and a really beautiful St. Louis Waterworks interuban car. A lot of work is going into the MoT collection these days, and it's well worth a look.
Frank Hicks
<< A lot of work is going into the MoT collection these days, and it's well worth a look. >>
A field trip to St. Louis would definately make for a fun summer weekend. Day 1 we can ride Metrolink from Airport (Lambert Field) to College (Belleville Area Colege in Illinois), get a tour of the shops, and tour the route of the new North-South extension. A dinner on The Hill for some really excellent Italian food will be called for!
Day 2 we can visit the Museum of Transportation. If there's time, a visit to the Wabash, Frisco & Pacific RR is always fun (a 12 inch gauge live steam RR with an extensive route. Check it out at www.wfprr.com)
Isn't next year's national ERA convention in St. Louis?
--Mark
Thanks for the photos from St. Louis, especially BU #1365. The Myrtle Ave. Line, where it hailed from, was my favorite line.
Best wishes,
Bob
Speaking of St. Louis and New York subway cars, does anyone know what ever became of the St. Louis Car Company that once produced so much of New York's rolling stock? I've never read or heard anything about its demise. I think I can make some reasonable guesses as to its fate, but I'm curious about the details.
Mark
Here's a link to a few of my photographs of the St. Louis museum, including the NYC motor and BU 1365, taken on 30 June 2002.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for posting the link to your website - I hadn't check out those photos before.
I saw the "Rust in Peace" pics of the PCC at National Capital (?) and nearly jumped out of my chair! Do you know what car this is? (My best guess is #1430, bought from Rockhill in 1997 and supposedly "stored off site.") Help?
Frank Hicks
Frank, I don't, but I'd venture to guess that it's been there longer than 1997. I'm a member of NatCap, mainly because my younger daughter lives 2 1/2 miles away at the moment, but when I've been there and inquired about the identity of the car no one seems to know the answer, other than that it is a former Washington car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it's a 1200, but what number or where it came from I don't know. A crew from the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum was allowed to remove trim parts for their 1138 a while ago.
1430 came from Rockhill as an operational car and it's never been at NCTM, AKAIK.
NCTM got this one for parts and it was a stripped junker when they got it.
Follow up:
According to a realiable source, 1430 is at NCTM. It's stored between the two carhouses. 1430 is a bit of a "weird" PCC, as RTY got it from the stripped cars DCTS had stored at the yard at Bladensburg. They got two rear trucks from the scapper that was cutting the cars stored at Eastern Carhouse up and restored the car to operational condition. Having two rear trucks means no hand brake is available. The car has a plow carrier on both trucks. RTY de-acessioned it as they wish to be a solely Pennsylvania museum.
Since we have so many TA employees on this board, may I ask, what is
the general opinion of you folks on the odds of a Monday strike?
Slowdown first, then maybe a strike?
Settlement at last second?
Agree to keep talking for a while?
Probably very low. Especially if the city gets that court injunction.
My guess:
Monday AM rush hour strike (4AM-12PM)
Running in order to get people to and from union rally (12PM-12AM)
26 hour bargaining grace period (12PM Mon-2PM Tue)
If no agreement, let people find their way home Tuesday evening.
Settled Wednesday morning @ 10-12% over three years, the copayment chopped in half to 1.2%, and removal of big stick discliplinary procedures.
(Settled Wednesday morning @ 10-12% over three years, the copayment chopped in half to 1.2%, and removal of big stick discliplinary procedures. )
In that case, there would be another strike in three years, and another after that. Or perhaps in one year, as striking is no more illegal with a contract than without one.
The settlement you describe might be reached on Sunday night. But especially if the TWU intentionally strands people, the public would be in a retalitory mood. And the TWU is negotiating with the Governor (in reality), and no agreement between them is binding on the Mayor, who could still lead a class action suit. If the TWU struck and Bloomberg did nothing, he'd be toast. He's already on the hot seat for borrowing $1.5 billion to cover for Pataki.
Bloomberg is covered in margarine already because of the state. While most city folks can't see it, I clearly saw in the strike contingency plan announcement that this man is TRAPPED right now. The only reason why he hasn't been bitten into yet is because the other counties have to divide him up.
I'm venturing to say that there will be two short strikes to send the point home that he will do it if necessary. He did the same thing in Queens, and then he dropped the big one. They will not wait for the big one.
Just for the record, Paturkey REFUSES to be involved in negotiations and has more than once said that the MTA's CURRENT position is just fine by him. He has NO intention of intervening because everyone's blaming Bloomberg for the mess, not Bruno. And as long as BRUNO is OK, then Paturkey doesn't care. That's what makes THIS negotiation unusual in that Paturkey will NOT get involved.
>>> Just for the record, Paturkey REFUSES to be involved in negotiations and has more than once said that the MTA's CURRENT position is just fine by him. <<<
Can we draw a parallel to Rockefeller at the time of the dispute about conditions with the state licence plate makers?
Tom
Funny you should say that ... State Police and National Guard are on standby. Let's hope it's not too MUCH of a parallel ... :(
But then when you work for the state, there is a feel of "incarceration" at times ...
IN PRISON you spend the majority of your time in an 8x10 cell.
AT WORK you spend most of your time in a 6x8 cubicle.
IN PRISON you get three meals a day.
AT WORK you only get a break for 1 meal and you have to pay for it.
IN PRISON you get time off for good behavior.
AT WORK you get rewarded for good behavior with more work.
IN PRISON a guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
AT WORK you must carry around a security card and unlock and open all the doors yourself.
IN PRISON you can watch TV and play games.
AT WORK you get fired for watching TV and playing games.
IN PRISON you get your own toilet.
AT WORK you have to share.
IN PRISON they allow your family and friends to visit.
AT WORK you cannot even speak to your family and friends.
IN PRISON all expenses are paid by taxpayers with no work required.
AT WORK you get to pay all the expenses to go to work and then they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.
IN PRISON you spend most of your life looking through bars from the inside wanting to get out.
AT WORK you spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.
IN PRISON there are wardens who are often sadistic.
AT WORK they are called managers.
Hmm.
You're a labor man over management. Don't gag but so am I. Belonged to the American Federation of Teachers for 30 years, and not the NEA kiss assers, most of whom were administration wannabees. Still, I hope that there is no strike because it would be a black eye for New York and a lot of commuters will get stiffed, not to mention an already shaky city economy getting worse.
I've spent MOST of my life as management actually, but I've never asked my partners in any project to do anything I wouldn't do myself and felt that the best way to ensure things worked properly was to do it along with them. That way, I knew what the score was and so did everybody else. I'd go in and work on holidays (still do) so others could take it off when something HAD to be covered. Too many in "management" think that they've been elevated into the heavens and that's a disservice to everybody. Ruling by fiat is best left to our elected leaders, I could never work that way myself. :)
And yes, I'm hoping there won't be a strike either, but I'm also acutely aware of the various situations which make it almost inevitable, and THERE is the damned shame. When the disciplinary numbers are as high as it is for the number of people working there, then that's a gross indictment of the MANAGEMENT. It demonstrates a glaring failure to WORK TOGETHER and that's the surest sign that there's too many people on the middle management payroll. THERE'S the savings that can pay for wage increases RIGHT THERE. :(
Management? What management?
There are no "corporate profits" to fight over here. There are no multi-million dollar management salaries. There are only NYC riders and taxpayers (who have no power), taxpayers and interests elsewhere (who have power), and the workers (who have less power, but are threatening a strike). At least you have to admit who you are striking against.
Who you should be striking against is former public employees with all those lucrative Tier 1 pensions, and former taxpayers who ran up those big debts. But they've gone and left the state, and the rest of us are left to deal with it.
(Judging by Bush's fiscal policy, I guess the Repulicans are planning to move out of the country in 20 years. Perhaps they'll all go to Idaho, and secede. High debts is the one thing the Republicans all agree on. Mega pensions for past employees and screwing future employees is one thing unions all agree on.)
Larry, ain't nobody more cheesed off at it all than I am - with the latest round of property taxes, my TAXES EXCEED MY INCOME! That's why I've been so got-dam CRANKY lately and hissing and spitting in all directions at anyone who thinks the current political situation of (as Leona Helmsley so eloquently put it) "Only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes." ...
But civil service does INDEED have "supervisory and management confidential titles" and WAY too many of them. Efficiencies of scale COULD be found by firing many of them - the "public employee unions" were allowed by our lawgivers with the specific purpose of not HAVING to have so many layers of management ... the problem in the webs of supervision have to do with "accountability", something the taxpayers expected of the POLITICOS, but they've sloughed it off on the "little people" instead.
Sure the TWU members could use a raise, but everything I've seen here and have heard privately suggests that a strike could be READILY averted by backing off on the insane "oversight" of the "little people" (the sheer VOLUME of disciplinary actions demonstrates excessive management) a tad and concentrating on REAL safety risks. In just one week, "productivity gains" as practiced apparently resulted in two deaths from short-sheeted work crews and there seems to be little argument of that as fact. TWU has some valid issues as far as safety goes and as far as excessive disciplinaries go. I can assure you that if I'm watching out for "commies in every woodpile," I'm going to get SO twitchy that I can't function and I've been through that personally in state service.
Otherwise I agree, but it sure does seem from all I've heard and all the personal stories I've been told privately that MTA management has gone a bit overboard and perhaps TWU might be happy with some "redirection" of that as an alternative to cash and people dying needlessly on the job. Ya never know ... some dollars and a dream.
For the record, I left TWU more than thirty years ago, but I still remember the BS in *my* day. Hard to believe that for all the subway's improved SINCE that it appears to have gotten WORSE ... the PUBLIC got clean and reliable subway and bus service, the employees are still waiting for THEIR improvements from what I hear ... and with my own management "bias" I'm not spouting Mark Green or Ralph Nader here. :)
There DOES appear to be a problem that needs to be worked out.
(Civil service does INDEED have "supervisory and management confidential titles" and WAY too many of them. Efficiencies
of scale COULD be found by firing many of them.)
Yeah, its more top heavy than when I was here in the mid-1980s. On the one hand, business management may have improved. On the other hand, with better information technology and business processes a whole lot of analyst positions could be eliminated, and the remaining analysts would have better jobs. Too much paper transfer and retyping, too many reports that aren't used. To fix it though, they'd have to start from ground up, and replace the general ledger. A lot of time, money and effort, but worth it.
There are three analysts in my group. One is leaving. One is a temporary consultant hired to replace someone who went on maternity leave -- the temp is leaving, the woman on maternity leave is coming back. I'm pushing to go from three to two. I said I do all the extra, with a little comp time earned when things get heavy, which I would take when things are slow. We'll see how I do.
There are three analysts in my group. One is leaving. One is a temporary consultant hired to replace someone who went on maternity leave -- the temp is leaving, the woman on maternity leave is coming back. I'm pushing to go from three to two. I said I do all the extra, with a little comp time earned when things get heavy, which I would take when things are slow. We'll see how I do.
Heh. More likely, TA managment will hire three more analysts.
I'd be interested to hear how that goes as well. It's just so antithetical to "the way things are done." :)
Selkirk, now you have an idea of what ailes many of our public schools out here====an overload of bureaucracy and bean counting pencil pushers. It is one reason I am running for our local school board in next April's election. Too many admins just screw things up.
Absolutely ... ya see, one of the reasons why I'm SO offended when you've called me a "liberal" is that I've seen both sides and BOTH SIDES are fuller sheep. The REALITY is ofnte right down the middle, or damn close TO it ... that's why I "diss" lunatics "out there" of EITHER side. And YES, nothing can screw up reality like a "study group." :)
I got you know. We aren't so far apart as I thought we were. Too bad we can't exile those types we have had to deal with. It would make for a more enjoyable life.
Yep, and that's the reason I'd get offended here and there. And sadly as time goes on the continuing polarization of both sides is leaving nobody in the middle. I feel so ... *alone* ... :)
"an overload of bureaucracy and bean counting pencil pushers" Fred, I like it. GOOD LUCK on your School Board run. Your conservatism, combined with your love of the students will help to assure that every nickel will go to the kids but the wasters will get nothing.
And I'll second that motion. Hope you have better luck than I did when I ran for school board in North Carolina back in 1994.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
John: If I am fortunate enough to get elected, you can bet what you said is exactly what I will be voting for. As much for the kids and teachers as possible, and what's left over to the bean counters.
$crew the Bean counters, THAT's when you give a TAX CUT.
odds of a Monday strike?
Morning line is 3-2. Place your bets at any OTB ;-)
Unless operating plans change, look for a 20 minute headway on all lines beginning at 9:00 pm on Sunday with a supervisor on every train.
If you look closely, you can see some yellow, which makes me believe that it was originally an R train. I believe it is an R46 since you can not see the repainted blue stripe.
Todd, having read some of your coworkers' bio pages, it seems WCBS has quite a few train fans. I guess none of them work on the website.
That's pretty funny. Would it be so hard to just take a real photo of a (5) train.
Or leave it as an R, which is what I believe it was, although others I have showed it to think it was an F.
This is so fake it's not even funny.
Here's something that's weird. I was waiting for the Queens Bound E Train at 5th Ave and 53 St last night when 3369 pulled into the station. The front sign caught my eye and was in shock when I saw it.
It said "7" Rest of the train said E.
I was like what the??? 7 on the E???!!! HUH???!!!
Only if I was in the front of the train ot get a pic. :( Oh well!
I rode 3727-the last car in that consist.
#3369 7 Flushing Local-LOL!
#3727 E Queens Blvd Express
The flip dot sign? Sure it just wasn't malfunctioning or not all the dots were flipping?
Inside the cab, there is a dial with every letter and number on it. Someone had fun?
There ya go :)
BTW, the R-38 control is completely different -- it's more like the sign control panel on the 1981 and 1983 RTS. I don't know if it has digits as well as letters. I also don't know what sort of control the R-32GE's have.
OK, I was under the understanding it was letters only.
OK, I was under the understanding it was letters only.
Numbers too, you can even make it cycle through everything at 1/second... nice for casing confusion :-)
You're absolutely correct on that point.
I recall when the Manny-B flip occured, there was an error on the Web site -- which was drawn from information in an Associated Press report. I called from Boston to let them know about it -- no one at the station in NYC picked it up!
I've noticed a number of posts on the topic of the possible strike. First, I would like to note that a strike would be a severe blow to the city. But something that I'm really sick of is this: "We need to recover, blah, blah, blah." Some people have suggested events years down the road to help our 'crippled' city. Way it sounds, we'll be a damaged city for the next century, barring another attack. Then it would be the next milennium. Having said this:
1. TWU workers are evil.
Let's look at what's going down. The TA has said there will be no raises, and you'll have to begin making co-payments on your medical benefits/pension plan. Let's put this in simple terms for those of you who are blinded: THIS IS ESSENTIALLY DECREASING THEIR SALARY. Many here have made statements about how TWU workers should look for jobs in the 'real world'. Would any other "real-world union" accept this?
2. The MTA is cash strapped.
They predicted a budget shortfall for this year, and PRESTO! MTA is operating at a surplus. Seems to me that the TA is doing it's usual "We've got no money!!!!" cry that it brings to a bargaining agreement. Another thing is that the MTA wants to raise fares. If they're raising fares, shouldn't the workers get a raise too? That seems to make sense.
3. I supported Bloomberg calling the TWU irresponsible. In fact, his refusal to get involved was even more heroic.
Let's consider this: The man refuses to come to the bargaining table when it's very important? The union has started to bargain, and our wonderful mayor refuses to bargain with them. The truly irresponsible people here are the TA people who just keep saying 'no money fellas.' Where's the compromise?
4. TA workers are selfish, greedy and evil.
Let's not forget that they also consume little children. While some TA workers do possess the qualities that are mentioned, so do some Police, Firefighters, Teachers and even (gasp!) white-collar workers. New York City Transit workers make less money than MNRR or LIRR workers for a more dangerous job. I think that they deserve a raise.
My question is:
Would you accept a contract that offers you nothing? Probably not. But of course, TA workers do not have lives outside of their jobs, and only want to take their 5-digit salaries from the TA to smite them.
> Would any other "real-world union" accept this?
Well, if you're in the tech field like me.. you were forced to accept two pay cuts last year or take a walk. No union offered to stand up for me. I'm sorry but unions don't get any sympathy from me.
Moreover, the transit system's share of commutation into the Manhattan CBD is so high that it is a de facto monopoly of an essential service. The threat of a strike is similar to Con Edison demanding at 25 percent increase in electric charges, or it will cut off electricity.
The TWU wants the right to strike. They ethically do not have it, because they are monopoly. I think the solution, if a strike occurs, is the break the A and B divisions into separate organizations, and gradually replace TWU workers on one or the other. Then you can give either the right to strike, and people won't be so heated.
Moreover, the transit system's share of commutation into the Manhattan CBD is so high that it is a de facto monopoly of an essential service. The threat of a strike is similar to Con Edison demanding at 25 percent increase in electric charges, or it will cut off electricity.
That's extortion. That would be like the Management saying: we're raising the fares to $10.00, take it or leave it.
Essentially, every city provided service is a 'monopoly.' The TWU is not running the monopoly, nor are they making ridiculous demands. The MTA has refused to bargain at all.
I think the solution, if a strike occurs, is the break the A and B divisions into separate organizations, and gradually replace TWU workers on one or the other. Then you can give either the right to strike, and people won't be so heated.
Then, they will have to collect seperate revenues. What about interdivisional stations? In fact, I believe this solves little. And De-unionizing is a no-no.
Bet they should of never unified the Subways. Should of been kept as IRT BMT and IND
Privitization was reallllly bad. Unification was indeed good. Under that retarded IRT/BMT system, you had an oligopoly that resulted in you paying a lot of fares (IRT subway and el alone were on two seperate fare systems).
But with today's unified system, we have a system that likes to work with itself. Consider the following impossibilities that would exist:
Times Sq. Transfer
Union Sq. xfer
The R line
IND trains across manhattan bridge.
It's safe to say that the city's takeover was good for riders, bad for railfans.
IRT subway and el alone were on two seperate fare systems
How was this? I just thought that they were too lazy to build elevated to subway transfers. You could still transfer out in the Bronx.
If they do strike, and IF the unevitable event goes on for more than 5 days, then I believe the TA should STAGE A LOCKOUT! That'll teach them a lesson b/c remember, they could very easily replace the workers if they want to [which seems illogical right now especially at 34,000 workers] and us transit fans here at Subtalk and Bustalk would be glad to fill in to move the people [we're assuming this could actually happen and might be condemned but hey the passion for the job overrides all of that]. Look, they are not getting 24%, which I agree they should not BUT they should get a raise but around the 10-12% range and take it or leave it, then lets see how much workers REALLY care about their jobs.
I usually disagree with Doomberg on most subjects usually but he is right to stay away from all negotiations. Don't think he's a pushover, he looks like one but he knows business and trust me he could pull surprises. Paturkey should intervene in negotiatoins since he oversees the MTA.
>>> us transit fans here at Subtalk and Bustalk would be glad to fill in to move the people <<<
Speak for yourself. There are many of us who would refuse to be scabs, regardless of our desire to operate a train or bus.
Tom
The people who could fill in have REAL jobs:)
The MTA will not let anybody play with their toys except their trained workers. Let the private sector fill in: the strike isn't breakable and the powers that be know it. They can huff and puff, but no houses will be collapsing from the outside.
To some extent, I agree with Tom. It's one thing to be a commuter van driver or charter bus that helps people get around because the transit workers can always come back and co-exist with them. You cannot co-exist with someone sitting in your very seat. Can you say BIE every 500 feet?
Actually if you've ever done school car, BIE's can be done every 59.5 feet or every 74.5 feet if it's a 75 footer. I've seen it happen. Some don't learn what to stomp and where. I'm sure the T/O's and conductors are having a good belly laugh at so many volunteering for "handle time" ... I know I'm amused by the concept of it all. Lemme see ... yellow over yellow means I can wrap it. Hey! What's that flashy thing? :)
I usually disagree with Doomberg on most subjects usually but he is right to stay away from all negotiations.
So, let me get this right:
In a strike that would cripple the city that HE IS MAYOR OF, he should remain uninvolved? That would be like if you were about to get your ass kicked and you just allowed it to happen unless your big brother talked your way out of it for you.
It is a system that solely involves New York City. But the mayor doesn't have any control over it (not his fault, admittedly). Now, it's his chance to have some influence over the system (in fact, the union would be his ally in that situation) and he backs out. Hmmmmm!
Dewd ... what are you smoking? The CITY OF NEW YORK has had NOTHING to do with the MTA since 1967! The MAYOR of New York can huff and puff and blow Bruno all he wants, but it's PATURKEY that rules the STATE AGENCY known as the MTA ... Bloomberg is IRRELEVANT! Matters not, has NO SAY ...
Pick on Bloomberg for banning smoking, for disappearing to Carribean islands when you can't afford to tag along. But Bloomie has NOTHING to do with the subways, busses, Metro North or Long Island Railroad. NOTHING!
Joe Bruno could solve this but he won't let Paturkey come out and play because he's been naughty and is locked up in the senator's dungeon until he eats ALL his Rensselaer county Enterprise zone porridge. :)
I know that. But if bloomberg came to the table, he could use his political weight to force a settlement. But since there's a republican mayor and governor, it won't happen. Imagine if Mark Green was Mayor? We'd have the mayor calling out the governor on every 5,6 and 11 o'clock news program in the tri-state area.
For the record, my father falls under the category of 'management' at NYCT. If they strike, he gets 12-hour days. Having said that, he kind of wants them to strike....
Heh. Please don't think I've got any problem with ya here, I merely lashed out because the truth is a POLITICAL one. First up, Bloomie is not considered a "PURE republican" ... he's more of a "Trent Lott loves you" republican. If Bloomberg got involved, Paturkey would stage a visit to the Dominican Republic ... no, make that HAITI because Paturkey would want to show that he doesn't despise ALL Haitians, just Roger. Such is the mentality.
I'll toss you a little bit of "QT" that I got ... Paturkey ORDERED Bloomberg to "stand with him on the court case, but to SHUT UP." No joke, that's why I said what I said about Roger stepping on the exploding DUCK ... PATURKEY told Bloomberg to shut up. As holder of the city's purse-strings, Bloomie *HAS* to shut up and sit down and shrink from view by order of the vengeful George Elmer ... Bloomie has no choice ... but when an "uppity" Roger says EXACTLY WHAT PATURKEY said, then Bloomie's inches away from having a STROKE ... NOT good and for THAT reason ...
Pataki's going to slam-dunk Roger, and if the city goes teats-up, doesn't affedct Rensselaer county, so Pataki doesn't GIVE a qwap. Bllomie gets to hold the bag. Can't people *SEE* the setup here? BLOOMBERG gets blamed, and you people are actually BUYING INTO this three card monty game! GEEZ!
Most NYC folks think of New York as New York City and Long Island. This is how madness happens. Of course, Pataki is 2.5 hours on AMTRAK, so flogging him is too time-consuming. Bloomberg is in Downtown Manhattan. Bloomberg doesn't mind the beatings too much though...he goes home and sees that last month's interest on his bank account EXCEEDS the salaries of every political figure he has to deal with:)
Heh. Yeah, and most of the folks are STILL blaming Bloomberg after all the posts about who REALLY runs the MTA. Ah well ... so far we haven't driven any of the TWU folks to mass murder so I guess we're still OK. Them northern lights last night were BREATHTAKING. I'll bet Bloomie had something to do with that as well. :)
If green was mayor his divisive politically inspired comments would fan the flames.
That is all we need is more politics in this negotiation. As public advocate Mark Green would come out with one moronic grandstand investigation after another. None of them solved any problems.
I'd agree with you, but there's a utilitarian BENEFIT to the taxpayer in having "public employee unions" in that it provides a mechanism for the state to negotiate wages and titles. Were it NOT for the public employee unions, then there'd be twice as many adminiswigs and docudroid political appointees for employees to visit, hat in hand, requesting an individual raise. By putting up these sham "unions" the state is able to dictate salaries, titles and work rules and provide a "we treated you fairly" scenario to the workforce.
You can't compare the private sector to the public sector - rocks float in the public sector. I for one am GLAD to be out from under it all, but it IS justified in civil service and does constitute a savings to the taxpayer compared to how it would be done in the private sector. Where I personally lack sympathy is the approaching one to one relationship between employees and their management. Really BIG savings could be achieved by firing 50% of the management tier in the public sector and let the WORKERS do their jobs ...
>>> No union offered to stand up for me. <<<
Which union did you pay your dues to?
Tom
And every raise I've ever received was based on both my productivity and my employer's financial standing. Civil service employees do not live in the real world.
>>> And every raise I've ever received was based on both my productivity and my employer's financial standing <<<
Of course private employers need to make a profit to stay in business. In government employment, the profit portion is not in the equation since each agency will receive just enough funds to perform its function. A reduction in costs due to increased productivity results in a reduction in funding in the subsequent year. For these reasons, productivity and financial standing take a back seat when public employees seek a raise. The world is different, but just as real as the one private sector employees are in.
Tom
"For these reasons, productivity and financial standing take a back seat when public employees seek a raise..."
So efficiency and productivity don't matter because somebody else is footing the bill?
It's only a real world because it exists, not because it makes sense.
For these reasons, productivity and financial standing take a back seat when public employees seek a raise.
And what does it take a back seat too? Civil service agencies may not have to turn profits, but they do have to generate as much revenue as possible to meet operating costs.
I'd gladly trade my job for a civil service position. I doubt many TWU rank & file members would do the opposite.
>>> And what does it take a back seat too? <<<
Political considerations. Can the union sell the need for a raise to the voting public? Most often seen in its crudest form with police and fire departments.
>>> I'd gladly trade my job for a civil service position. <<<
There is nothing stopping you from taking the tests.
Tom
For what it's worth I *highly* recommend that anyone who believes that civil service is a honeypot *really* should take the test, get the appointment and serve their time. It's QUITE an education ...
David, you host a good site. This is not critical of you, but of your staement: You chose a job with no union. You chose a lucrative job, that suddenly went un-lucrative. If you had had a union, you probably wouldn't have had to take a pay cut. I'm non-union. I'm an independant contractor in a sales position. I don't have health insurance. But that doesn't stop me from understanding that people with health plans would get angry if they were forced to get less/worse health coverage for the same money. A bus driver who wants a raise is not evil. A baseball player who wants a raise might be.
I have to agree and my title is the only city computer title not covered by DC37 Local 2627. At the last union meeting where I thought I was going to get the city service list to find out how much city service I have (didn't get it) our $200,000 a year union head (or thereabouts) was tellnig us how Gloomberg was trying to balance the budget on our backs.
This was the first time to "union hall", and can see where my union dues are going, not into my welfare fund I'll tell ya.
BTW, Wed 18 people laid off, 12 yesterday and they are still handing out pink slips today. These aren't just hourly or provisonal people, my job is laying off PERMANENT CIVIL SERVICE under the Finaincial Emergency Clause of Civil Service Law. Where will it end?
Wish I could say something happy, but I can tell you up here from GLOOM CENTRAL, Division of the Budget keeps coming up with WORSE new every day. All that federal money NYC was supposed to get got cut off by our beloved SHRUB. And what little money DID get filtered in (resurrection of Chinatown) got snared by Joe Bruno for rensselaer county.
Hopefully, you're in a position that your wigs can't afford to lose (they'll fight it if this is the case and point to someone else) but the state is in *FAR* worse shape than Division of the Budget thought it was in last WEEK ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=82214&BCCode=&category=STATE&newsdate=12/12/2002
And they STILL don't know how bad it might be as Pataki's numbers were fudged beyond the state accountant's ability to comprehend ... we're talking BEYOND Enron as far as state finances go, and Shrub has already told us to go to hell, he'd rather a tax cut. Meanwhile, New York is STILL an active target, and the money went to the deep south.
I wish I had happier words, I really do, but from what you've described, the city cannot afford to lose what you're doing, at least not right now - time to walk in and explain to the wiglets and junior deputy wiglets that now is a bad time for you at least to go. Sorry for putting it this way, but adminiswigs know not to kill their golden goose that might preserve *THEIR* title ... and so it goes. That's how *I* survived the first four Paturkey hatchet-swingings ... I *made* their nut, and they had to face it ...
Meanwhile, New York is STILL an active target, and the money went to the deep south.
Good. Southern states would spend federal money properly. New York would piddle it away on garbage like Medicaid.
Yep, couldn't agree more. Evangelical schools ("fate-based edumication") or harassing women who need to go to the doctor, all SORTS of good things that the TALIBAN stood for. Meanwhile, New York and Washington are the IDENTIFIED SPECIFICALLY BY AL QAEDA "targets" and we can't even get a freaking F15 to do a flyover once a week. Yep, as we ALL know, that great symbolic "symbol of America," BATON ROUGE lies in absolute terror knowing that the next attack could happen any time at Bob Jones University in the HEART of South Carolina. Yep, I feel safer knowing that our priorities are screwed on right, EXTREME right. :)
All that federal money NYC was supposed to get got cut off by our beloved SHRUB. And what little money DID get filtered in (resurrection of Chinatown) got snared by Joe Bruno for rensselaer county.
Please explain.
Here ya go ... pythed OFF yet? WTC RESCUE money, like all OTHER money (that TWU could have been paid with) stolen by Joe Bruno ... AGAIN ...
http://www.nysun.com/sunarticle.asp?artID=371
At LEAST Mafiosi in the CITY "spread it around" ... not JOEY ... And ultimately it's BRUNO who OPERATES Paturkey. Paturkey HAS NO BALLS, it's BRUNO that runs New York State. Folks in the city ought to start to wonder what that painful rectal itch REALLY is ... hint, Giuliani and every mayor since KOCH has *NO* power ... New York City is STILL under STATE governance under the "Municipal Assistance Corporation" and the "Financial Control Board" ... New York City gave up its government under Gerald Ford, strangely the administration that provided SHRUB'S brain trust.
History repeats ... oooooo! Is that SOAP on the shower floor? Mine! :)
That kind of pisses me off, but I expect nothing less. Pataki doesn't give a flying f**k about NYC, and never will. Why the hell would you make some upstate city an empire development zone? Dumb. Whatever. As long as some of the 'Amigos de Pataki' continue to gather city votes for the NY republicans, NYC will KEEP getting screwed.
I would *HOPE* people would be honked off ... I don't LIVE in the city anymore, I'm way, way WAY upstate and *I* was honked off. It's JOE BRUNO screwing the city and hey, by the way "RENT STABILIZATION" dies in JUNE ... with Shrub and Paturkey and Bruno, does anybody REALLY believe it'll last past? Screw NYC? the GOP hasn't even STARTED to screw NYC yet ... but folks VOTED for these swine. AGAIN.
But yeah, WTC can go to hell, Rensselaer is going to get a BRAND NEW Wal*Mart distribution center. This is the FIFTH rape of NYC's WTC cash for Joey and his pals ... but Paturkey got his landslide. Word, property taxes have been revised for downstate. Those of you who don't OWN your apartment may not notice, but those in the suburbs who pay mortgages, Hot DAMN! Are you going to be glad you're a republican. :)
My prop taxes TRIPLED! Whoohoo! Wish I EARNED as much as I've been asked to PAY, but I don't ... Shrub FEELS your pain though. :(
(As long as some of the 'Amigos de Pataki' continue to gather city votes for the NY republicans, NYC will KEEP getting screwed. )
Just remember who "Amigo's De Pataki" are. The deal is NYC gets lots of money for Medicaid and housing, and gets screwed in favor of the rest of the state, and the rest of the nation, in every other way. Sometimes, bottom line, the city comes out ahead, sometimes even, lately way behind. But that's not the big story.
Paturkey blew up the Medicaid too ... that's the reason for the on average 25% property tax hikes, he stuck the COUNTIES with that bill so he could give the rest away in corporate tax breaks. He didn't keep a SINGLE promise, not that that's news.
At least he's consistant
Yeah, gotta hand him THAT. But I guess "borrow and spend" is preferable to "tax and spend" since "only the LITTLE people pay taxes." :(
Lord, I think I'm going to pass out.
I actually agree with Jtrainloco. . .
"New York City Transit workers make less money than MNRR or LIRR workers for a more dangerous job"
While I whole heartedly agree that by sheer numbers there are more assholes, morons, and criminals who ride the New York Subways than who ride commuter railroads, what can be more "dangerous" than walking through several cars collecting cash face to face from the riding public? In many cases, subway conductors are confined to cross cabs, and have no contact with the public except when opening their windows at the platforms. While I agree that could be the most stressful part of their jobs, picture doing that PLUS collecting fares while carrying hundreds of dollars in cash. That's what commuter rail conductors have to contend with. Having to open and close doors, observe the platform, PLUS collect cash or tickets face to face from passengers. PLUS..... commuter rail conductors have to qualify on the physical characteristics of the lines they work. Do subway conductors have to be qualified on the physical characteristics of the lines they work? Do subway conductors have to call out signals to the engineer when making a reverse move due to an emergency or equipment malfunction?
I believe that New York City transit workers should get the best contract that they can, but they should never be compared to commuter rail employees. Apples and oranges.
("New York City Transit workers make less money than MNRR or LIRR workers for a more dangerous job.")
The driver has a more difficult job on commuter rail. Aside from that I agree with the "rail equity" argument. While rail equity argues from increasing TA wages in a boom, it argues for DECREASING commuter rail wages in a fiscal crisis. If we have a strike, the LIRR and MetroNorth had damn well better have one.
Subways than who ride commuter railroads, what can be more "dangerous" than walking through several cars collecting cash face to face from the riding public?In many cases, subway conductors are confined to cross cabs, and have no contact with the public except when opening their windows at the platforms.
I heard a story where some kids kicked a C/R out of his cab and took over the PA on an A train. That happen on commuter railroad?
The fact that the People are in contact with the C/R is actually safer from him. NYCT C/R's get shellacked with stuff as their trains leave because people know nothing will be done to them.
I believe that New York City transit workers should get the best contract that they can, but they should never be compared to commuter rail employees. Apples and oranges.
They aren't all that different really.
"I heard a story where some kids kicked a C/R out of his cab and took over the PA on an A train. That happen on commuter railroad?"
Many commuter rail C/R's have been assaulted over the years. Probably not as many as New York Subway C/R's, but it still has happened.
"They aren't all that different really."
In my previous post I just finished citing multiple examples how many more duties and resonsibilities commuter rail C/R's have than New York City C/R's. I even left out a few things because I did not want to knitpick. However, if you want me to post a detailed list of what a commuter rail conductor has to do on a typical day, I'd be more than happy.
I did not say they were identical. I said SIMILAR. For instance, my pops now trains people not only for NYCT and the RR's, but also the PATH. How could someone who started as a painter do that if there were 'huge' differences in the jobs.
BTW: he trains track safety and crane ops. Being a C/R is not the only job one can hold down on a railroad.
PATH is just a SUBWAY(Just ask #4 Sea Beach Fred!) train that happens to run between New York and New Jersey. It is not considered a "commuter railroad". So, yes, you can compare PATH with the New York City subways regarding the job description of the crews on board. Commuter Railroads have more in common with AMTRAK (I'm sorry to say) than it does with local subway systems.
And yes, I know there are many crafts whithin the industry. I was specifically referring to the C/R's in this case.
PATH is just a SUBWAY(Just ask #4 Sea Beach Fred!) train that happens to run between New York and New Jersey. It is not considered a "commuter railroad". So, yes, you can compare PATH with the New York City subways regarding the job description of the crews on board.
Did I not say the RR's as well? Sometimes, you guys amaze me....
And yes, I know there are many crafts whithin the industry. I was specifically referring to the C/R's in this case.
That's fine. But to say that RR's and Subway's are like apples and oranges is purely a myth.
Commuter Railroads have more in common with AMTRAK (I'm sorry to say) than it does with local subway systems.
Not necessarily. AMTRAK is more of a 'let's go visit granma.' The MNRR and LIRR are more like a 'damn, this rush hour train is packed with investment bankers. In fact, commuter railroads are actually more like subway: they take people to and from the downtown area during the rush hours. They just operate on a larger scale than subways.
"this rush hour train is packed with investment bankers"
FYI most investment bankers live in the city. The hours they work prohibbit long commutes
....I just don't know what to say....
"this rush hour train is packed with investment bankers"
FYI most investment bankers live in the city. The hours they work prohibbit long commutes
MNRR, LIRR, NJ Transit, and AMTRAK all have to follow the rules of the FRA (Federal Railroad Admistration). Last time I looked, the subways did not fall under that jurisdiction. That's why I was comparing AMTRAK to the various commuter railroads. I know that AMTRAK caters to more of a "leisure" traveler. I'm referring to the overall operation, which includes equipment, the NORAC rule book, signals, procedures, etc.
The bottom line is that I am not downplaying the importance of subway C/R's, and they certainly deserve any money they can get. I was just pointing out that I didn't think it was fair to even bring up MNRR or LIRR in the first place, due to the differences I pointed out.
MNRR, LIRR, NJ Transit, and AMTRAK all have to follow the rules of the FRA (Federal Railroad Admistration). Last time I looked, the subways did not fall under that jurisdiction.
And so does PATH, so hence, it too is a commuter railroad.
I was just pointing out that I didn't think it was fair to even bring up MNRR or LIRR in the first place, due to the differences I pointed out.
And I think it's perfectly fair to bring them up, due to the similarities I pointed out.
And yet all these posters say that MNCR/LIRR is a totally different job, thus they should be paid more. That and the PATH T/O's are essentially subway workers.
Yet PATH T/O's make the highest hourly wage out of all of them, and not by a few pennies either.
Do you mean to tell me that a PATH T/O's job is harder than an LIRR engineer's job? It must be considering the wage scale (yeah right).
I'm not going to use the word "hard", but I will say that a NYCTA T/O position is the most DIFFICULT job in the region.
You are probably right that the actual work performed is mostly the same skill/annoyance level across LI, MN, NJT, PATH, NYCT. The realistic qustions then are two. one, will the FRA regulated workers allow themselves to lose their "premium"? or two, can the public insist they all get the same and while we are at it, change the MN and LI to smart card reader fare control and two person crews?
My point is that as long as most Americans vote NOT to tax the overly rich, can't afford total farebox recovery, the next possibility is cutting labor costs relative to the rest of the budget.
BTW if actual difficulty, or social utility were translatable to wages the Enron Slugs would never have earned a dime, but that will have to wait for a smarter population.
BTW if actual difficulty, or social utility were translatable to wages the Enron Slugs would never have earned a dime
Amen!
But it is like I said before: The Rich get to decide *what* money is.
Elias
It baffles my mind to this day why in the world in this day and age with all the technology that cheaply available do we have conductors still sticking thier heads out windows to close doors.
Install 4 cameras per station on the platform. Wirelessly transmit the video to the motorman. project the imager in front of the motorman ( or flat panel monitors. Open and close the doors without leaving ones seat. Of course the door control buttons will need to be relocated within reach of a sitting motorman.
Dwell time would also be reduced slightly because the entire train can be closes at one time.
Dwell time would also be reduced slightly because the entire train can be closes at one time.
Dwell time always goes up on OPTO, especially on stations oppisite the Motorman's position.
Unlike the current OPTO implementation there will be no getting up. No looking out the window. The train operator will be utilizing video screens or projections INSIDE THE CAB. As part of the video transmissin or possibly a beacon on the platform would transmitt a code that would not allow the train operator to open the doors on the wrong side of the platform (of course a overide switch could be included if the crew wanted to open the doors on the wrong side for say maintance or train testing ala r-142 burn in testing)
Once vandalism sets in, you can kiss that goodbye.
There are alreasy cameras on platforms all over the transit system. The rate of vandelism is not that bad. plus these camera's can double as a security system catching vandels in the act. Many of these cameras will have overlap so one camera will likely see the vandel vandelizing other camersa.
In addition when 75 ft cars with locked end doors cam out people said that vandal would destroy the cars being locked in thier all by themselves. Although vandalism has occured is it that much more then on cars with the end doors unlocked
How can a T/O can do this at Grand Central during Rush Hour? Dwell time would actually INCREASE because (s)he has to see the full length of the platform, before closing the doors, cameras canonly cover a few doors on each car and they're may be blind spots. That's why OPTO will be only in place on some shtuule trains and weekends on the G line, you can't do OPTO on the #6 line in Manhattan.
Properly placed cameras could see just as much or more then the current practice of the T/O sticking his head out the window and looking for door blockages. Each station would need to be planned out based on its own special charteristics.
I envision 4 camera's per station. ore cameras may be needed if blind spot issues can not be worked out. The images will be projected or dispayed inside the cab via projections or flat panel monitors. On newer equiptment such as R142/r143 where internal control systems know which door is blocked can actually notify the T/O on the screen that a door is blocked on the section covered by camera A.
remember since the images are inside the cab the t/o driving the train can monitor the platform as the train leaves the station unlike the current OPTO implimnetation
The system I describe will work. It will be easier and safer then the current pratice. And with increased responcibilities it is fair to say thier will be increased pay.
With any new system it is always best to roll the system out and test it properly before implimenting system wide.
SEPTA currently has CCTV cameras on its Market-Frankford el cars. They are located in the cab and the trains are OPTO and I've never seen the T/O stick his head out of the window. So far it seems to work there.
Do yourself a favor sometime. Go to Grand Central and stand at the express track conductor position, and WATCH the TV screens doing PRECISELY what you describe. Note the condition of the video quality. They've done JUST what you described ... check it out, report back. :)
"Would you accept a contract that offers you nothing?"
I've accepted a change in my employment situation that reduces my pay by well over 50%. Not happily, but I had no good alternative. I'm working very hard to get back to an increased income, but it could take me 5 or more years to get back to anywhere near what I was earning in 2001. It's pretty clear many other posters here are in similar situations.
Having said that, I don't think many people here actively dislike wish bad things on transit workers (there are a few exceptions here but not many). We've all encountered our (small) share of hostile workers, but most are doing their professional best.
But we don't want to pay for a strike with even more economic decline.
As I just pointed out in the "Wowie:" thread, Roger's attitude certainly shows a "breaking point" to his words, and that's not good. Anyone who's bothered to read me in the recent threads about the TWU situation KNOWS that my own heart sides with those who make the trains run on time ... but if what the TU reads of the tea leaves is true, there's a level of arrogance on Roger's side of the fence that rivals that of our GOVERNOR and Bruno (arrogance CUBED) and this bodes VERY poorly for what's to come. :(
Zero IS unacceptable. And yeah, I'm one of those who has seen my income DESTROYED since Shrub and his cronies pretty much destroyed the internet and any hope of making one's nut in the SOFTWARE industry (that's why Paturkey touts "tech valley" and everybody's busting a gut LAUGHING up here over it since you can't even get DSL around here where ACTUAL software companies struggle on DIALUP) ... but still, these folks worked THROUGH 9/11, took their wreteched pay while everyone else was doubling and tripling up on THEIRS, and it isn't fair to screw them out of SOMETHING ...
Fare's going up, taxes are going up, maybe TWU can pursuade Joe Bruno to give up some of HIS gelt, that'd pay for it. But -2.3, 0, 0 is INSANE for folks who got screwed out of theirs because of the contract timing. And inside 3 years, DESPITE Shrub, we'll have an economy again and they'll STILL get screwed, locked into a contract of Shrub times. I think it's THIS piece that folks don't understand.
But MAN, Roger ain't doing himself or the TWU any favors with a sound byte like THAT ... sheesh.
Where I'm going with what I said is in comparing Touissant to Mike Quill. An antagonistic relationship is to be expected. Quill, an old line COMMUNIST however had "statesmanlike" qualities and KNEW how to engineer a sound byte to HIS favor (as an example, "Oh yeah? Well, let's see what 'Mayor LINSLEY' thinks of all this when he wakes up to find a quill shoved up his arse." It showed LEADERSHIP and a meeting of EQUALS even if it was crass. Typical NYC politics, "I'm not afraid of you and you'd BETTER be afraid of me." Worked.
"The mayor should shut up" on the other hand smacks of weakness, a LACK of "leadership" or political "statesmanship" and comes off somewhat cheap. Like a kid in a schoolyard. This is NOT how to seek your place in "history" or convince politicos that you will not only not roll over, but will take them OUT if they screw with you. For the first time, I'm actually worried about my TWU broethers and sisters here and HOPE the TU mischaracterized this. With my experience over the years knowing TU reporters and editors though, I fear he actually DID this ... uhoh. :(
Paturkey lives for one thing in particular - SCREWING anyone he doesn't like. Roger just crossed the line, and while Paturkey DESPISES Bloomberg (check your taxes in NYC if you doubt this), Paturkey will SCREW anyone associated with someone he doesn't like. If Roger pulls this on George Elmer, there truly WILL be hell to pay. Only thing worse than cheesing off Paturkey is getting Joe Bruno caught in his zipper. Fortunately, Roger ain't gone THERE yet. :)
"But MAN, Roger ain't doing himself or the TWU any favors with a sound byte like THAT ... sheesh."
He also isn't doing himself any favors by saying that it would be OK for cleaners to change light bulbs as long as they get paid more for the increased responsibility.
From what everyone says about the filthy job cleaners have to do, changing light bulbs sounds like it would be a wonderful digression from their normal duties.
Hosing down tiles ... I know that's something most people would aspire to if they didn't need the paycheck. No? But yeah, there's folks who get paid to change the lightbulbs too - electricity CAN be dangerous without proper training ... what are THOSE folks to do?
REALITY is if the MTA needs to bleed jobs, ATTRITION is a way of business in government. Promote people from lower titles, and don't hire replacements. Abolish titles, and don't hire replacements. It allows those willing to do the work to move up, doesn't result in mass firings and cuts the costs where possible. I'm surprised there's any more attrition to be had with so many hitting the silk, but I believe. :)
But yeah, if you're going to have people who hose down walls and mop up floors and cars do ELECTRICIAN'S work, then they damned well better get TRAINED in how to do it without being electrocuted, and they ought to be paid for doing an electrician's job. I don't see a problem with that, actual salary value to be negotiated fairly ...
"But yeah, if you're going to have people who hose down walls and mop up floors and cars do ELECTRICIAN'S work, then they damned well better get TRAINED in how to do it without being electrocuted"
Changing light bulbs is not electrician's work. Every New Yorker changes light bulbs. Yes, you need to be trained to be careful, but it's a lot safer than cleaning litter off the tracks.
Calling it electrician's work leads to a huge reduction in credibility for the average New Yorker.
Industrial lighting IS different. It's not like I'm saying you need IBEW or IUE "brothers" to do it, but you DO need safety training for those who do it, you DO need additional skills (what if some jamoke from Brooklyn, reached up, grabbed ahold of the cage of the fluourescent fixture on the station platform and got zitzed and the bulb changer never noticed the "hot ground" until a trial lawyer did?)
I'm ALL FOR properly training cleaners to do the task, but along with the additional responsibility for PUBLIC SAFETY that the job entails, they'd BEST know to call it IN before the TRIAL LAWYERS had a chance ... and with those extra skills (according to so MANY here) comes additional "VALUE" and thus, they should be paid for the additional skill and responsibility or they might as well have gone to COLLEGE. :)
But yes, on that penultimate VALUE of CIVIL SERVICE, the current "bulb changers" are PUBLIC SAFETY critical ... station cleaners are not. The CLASSIFICATION is the worth ... and yes, they deserve more money based on the accountability and culpability of public employees on a "life critical mission" ... if you've got a problem with the justification, might wanna consult with Joe Bruno. HE's the law.
$19 an hour already includes the "life critical missing" bonus
Of course the 10 minutes of training required to train th staion cleaners to change light bulbs should be done
Sorry, additional thought - as a MOTORMAN, I've reached up to punch a route and gotten a shock - while folks may thing of changing lightbulbs to be a mindless task, grounds DO FAIL sometimes. That's why it's an electrician's job ... and on any remaining five-bulb incandescents that might still be in the system, that puppy will be HOT with 600 DC from the third rail. Would YOU want to accidentally contact 600 volts hot?
Remember the "whizzing on the third rail thread?" ... I really CAN see the point of it being subject to negotiation ...
OK, I agree changing 600 volt light bulbs is electrician's work. But (a) no one outside the TA realizes there are such light bulbs and (b) then just allow cleaners to change the ones that are 110 volts.
And most are 110 ... STILL, defective grounds and other public hazrd risks are quite real in industrial situations such as the TA.
PLEASE don't get me wrong, I'm not ARGUING, I'm merely saying that the NUANCES of electrical safety *are* a craft ... you need to know HOW to detect a problem. If the cleaners are TAUGHT the craft by the union, or other RESPONSIBLE party, NO PROBLEM. But it IS a risk to public safety if UNSKILLED "electricians" service the facilities and are unable to categorize or mitigate the risks ... it ain't ALL that hard, but I won't give away "trade secrets" either.
Sorry, once again, I've WORKED for the STATE. Many enjoy "Dilbert" without realizing that the author of Dilbert was a Pacific Bell Telephone employee who based the strip on the "phone company" and its hierarchy. New York STATE is Dilbert on STEROIDS! (NO JOKE!)
"And most are 110 ... STILL, defective grounds and other public hazrd risks are quite real in industrial situations such as the TA."
We're talking two different things here: (a) detecting defective grounds and (b) changing a light bulb.
Changing a light bulb does not create a defective ground. A defective ground can injure the public in any case, even if the light bulb doesn't need changing.
So I see two tasks.
1. Change light bulbs as needed. Requires 1 hour of training.
2. Inspect periodically (maybe once per year) for defective grounds. That's tricky and requires an electrician. So let the electricians inspect and the cleaners change the bulbs.
In any case, Roger didn't say "Changing a light bulb in the subway is not like changing one at home. There are complex safety issues requiring extensive training." He just said "Changing light bulbs is electrician's work. If cleaners do this, they should be paid more."
This kind of statement reduces his credibility with the average guy who changes lots of fluorescent and incandescent light bulbs at home. It furthers the (erroneous) image of the featherbedding subway worker.
Lets not make changing bulbs by electricians out of tittle either.
We will end with a situation where the electrician checks thr grounds and a station cleaner stands next to him wainting to climb the latter in case the bulb needs to be removed and replaced
Don't laugh, check out some of the work rules in the building maintance union. They are so restrictive that some office building owners fired all the maintainers and brought in private contractors
Nobody's accusing Roger of having a CLUE. :)
I tell ya though, if *I* was in the TWU, observing this, I'd recommend to Roger that he check out his golden parachute (if there is one) and make sure it's packed with parachute and not laundry. I'm SURE not impressed by what I've heard. And like I've said repeatedly, I *side* with TWU here ... but man ... I'm EMBARASSED ...
Besides changing lightbulbs the TA wants cleaners to paint, do some repairs, operate forklifts and fuel up vehicles, and then if the productivity increases are met (we still don't know what the parameters are) a raise will be negotiated if money is avalable. IN others words do more work and next year we'll be broke too and can't afford to give you an increase in pay.
(I've accepted a change in my employment situation that reduces my pay by well over 50%. Not happily, but I had no good alternative. I'm working very hard to get back to an increased income, but it could take me 5 or more years to get back to anywhere near what I was earning in 2001.)
Not too long ago those in your industry, and some others, were making EXTREME money. Not everyone realized it wasn't normal. And not everyone realizes that it's over. One reasons some of us lesser beings may be upset is that housing prices have not yet adjusted to reality. But they will.
"Not too long ago those in your industry, and some others, were making EXTREME money."
I never said what industry I was working in. It was software related, but not particularly internet related; rather a business that had been ongoing for over 15 years. I never made extreme money.
(I never made extreme money.)
Perhaps not, but some folks made extreme money. The point is, other folks had their expectations changed by the perception of extreme money.
Perhaps not, but some folks made extreme money. The point is, other folks had their expectations changed by the perception of extreme money.
Much the same has happened with the stock market. You'll often hear that a particular stock, frequently one on the NASDAQ, is a terrific bargain because its price-earnings ratio is one-quarter (or whatever) of what it had been at the peak in early 2000. Yet it's also possible that the stock is still way overvalued, with the comparison to 2000 being meaningless because prices then made no sense at all.
1. TWU workers are evil.
Let's look at what's going down. The TA has said there will be no raises, and you'll have to begin making co-payments on your medical benefits/pension plan. Let's put this in simple terms for those of you who are blinded: THIS IS ESSENTIALLY DECREASING THEIR SALARY.
[i] A salary increase of 1.5% would be enough to keep up with inflation. Why should you get 6%? Asking you to contribute to your insurance is due to soaring medical costs which is a fact of life for all Americans. Splitting the increased cost with you is not lowering your salary, but redirects some of it to pay for the increase in medical costs. Most people in the private sector pay for some of their insurance.[/i]
Many here have made statements about how TWU workers should look for jobs in the 'real world'. Would any other "real-world union" accept this?
[i]United Airlines immediately comes to mind.[/i]
2. The MTA is cash strapped.
They predicted a budget shortfall for this year, and PRESTO! MTA is operating at a surplus. Seems to me that the TA is doing it's usual "We've got no money!!!!" cry that it brings to a bargaining agreement. Another thing is that the MTA wants to raise fares. If they're raising fares, shouldn't the workers get a raise too? That seems to make sense.
[i]The fare has fallen a great deal in real terms since 1995 from $1.50 in 1995 dollars to average fare of $.95 in 2002 dollars, due to Metrocard discounts. Although opening their books would help the MTA's credibility greatly.[/i]
3. I supported Bloomberg calling the TWU irresponsible. In fact, his refusal to get involved was even more heroic.
Let's consider this: The man refuses to come to the bargaining table when it's very important? The union has started to bargain, and our wonderful mayor refuses to bargain with them. The truly irresponsible people here are the TA people who just keep saying 'no money fellas.' Where's the compromise?
[i]Mayor Bloomberg has almost nothing to do with this. The governor controls the MTA. The mayor is only responsible for the disaster the TWU would unleash upon the city.[/i]
4. TA workers are selfish, greedy and evil.
Let's not forget that they also consume little children. While some TA workers do possess the qualities that are mentioned, so do some Police, Firefighters, Teachers and even (gasp!) white-collar workers. New York City Transit workers make less money than MNRR or LIRR workers for a more dangerous job. I think that they deserve a raise.
[i]I think TA workers are very polite, efficient workers. I've rarely had a bad experience. I've got no problem with them seeking a raise. But a strike would be an evil, spiteful act upon 10 million innocent people, and I would have no sympathy whatsoever. Anyone who strikes deserves to be fined $25K in my opinion.[/i]
My question is:
Would you accept a contract that offers you nothing? Probably not. But of course, TA workers do not have lives outside of their jobs, and only want to take their 5-digit salaries from the TA to smite them.
[i]If my company offered me no raise (which has happened before), I would either accept it or look for work elsewhere. There are no guaranteed raises in life, especially during a recession.[/i]
A salary increase of 1.5% would be enough to keep up with inflation. Why should you get 6%? Asking you to contribute to your insurance is due to soaring medical costs which is a fact of life for all Americans. Splitting the increased cost with you is not lowering your salary, but redirects some of it to pay for the increase in medical costs. Most people in the private sector pay for some of their insurance.
Who said their getting 6%? It's plainly obvious they're not getting 6%. But the TA seems to think that a 0% raise is in order, and has refused to bargain. We all know that that is what would lead to a strike.
As for the splitting of the costs: You offer a 0% raise and tell them to make co-payments? Seems stupid to me...
The fare has fallen a great deal in real terms since 1995 from $1.50 in 1995 dollars to average fare of $.95 in 2002 dollars, due to Metrocard discounts. Although opening their books would help the MTA's credibility greatly.
I keep hearing different numbers for the fare amount: $1.20, $1.05, now $.95. Anyone know what the real number is?
Mayor Bloomberg has almost nothing to do with this. The governor controls the MTA. The mayor is only responsible for the disaster the TWU would unleash upon the city
He has a chance to add his influence to the debate. He chooses to merely hurl insults from afar.
But a strike would be an evil, spiteful act upon 10 million innocent people, and I would have no sympathy whatsoever. Anyone who strikes deserves to be fined $25K in my opinion.
No, a strike would be allowing your right to flex your muscle as a union. The MTA is saying: Take our word for it, we have no money for you. They also have been very secretive about their finances, and they're actually RAISING THE FARE. Why does there need to be such a large fare increase? Was there a fare decrease when NYCT was operating at a huge surplus? Who's f****n' the public now?
If my company offered me no raise (which has happened before), I would either accept it or look for work elsewhere. There are no guaranteed raises in life, especially during a recession
For the record, that has happend to the TWU before too. You guys are seeing only what you want to see: "MY BELOVED TRAINS WON'T BE RUNNING!!!! WAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!" Keep in mind that transit employees also have use for money, and they also deal with inflation.
Keep in mind that in your line of work, you don't have to dodge trains every 3 minutes. And when you don't, you never again have to worry about the raise you're not getting.
Personally, I hope the union goes bankrupt paying off all those fines. 24% or even 18% is ridiculous considering how far in debt the city and state are. A strike means more lost revenue for the MTA and even less of a chance for a raise. Remember when the air traffic controllers went on strike? Reagan fired them all and replaced them with Air Force controllers. Maybe something similar can be done in this situation?
Just out of curiosity, since I've had a snootful of this "fire them all and throw their asses in jail" stuff ... why is it that everybody's blaming the poor bastards who WORK on the trains rather than their management who bankrupted a railroad in the RICHEST of times? I just don't get all the bile towards the TWU people when it is the politicians and the bureaucrats running the MTA that can't cough up a pittance for those who show up every day and make the system RUN.
So now they ask for a raise after three years and are getting kicked in the teeth by those who SQUANDERED a lot of money in a time when this nation had its greatest wealth in naerly 100 years? Why isn't anyone upset with MTA management or the politicos and their cronies who stole your money? I just don't get it ... what did that guy in the cab or the token booth ever do to folks? Show up?
"I've had a snootful of this "fire them all and throw their asses in jail" stuff"
Try doing a survey of postings. I think it's under 25% who endorse that point of view. Many postings have said "you will get screwed" as a statement of fact without particularly endorsing that policy.
Also, the pro-union postings on this board have a strong tendency to think that by keeping the average New Yorker from getting to work, they will have made a statement that has an impact on people with power.
They don't seem to understand that the people who earn $50K and up will get to work and get paid, that it's the people earning $20-35K who are going to get screwed by the strike. This inflames the posters who are going to suffer a serious financial burden if there is a strike.
I fully understand and even agree with your point ... but an opinion having a majority doesn't necessarily make it right. Walking out is the ONLY option the union has ... they have nothing else to work with. The REALITY is that they are NOT going to, although at some point a strike action for a portion of a day might happen if things get desperate. I can't see *ANY* TWU member *wanting* to do this ... and I think if people carefully read all that's said, there isn't ANYBODY that I can recall who said "I'm walking and screw you" here. Everyone wants to AVOID it.
But it also cannot be argued that there's been ANY good faith from the management side of this, the politicos are scarcer than Trent Lott and the MTA *completely* removed even the screwage offer from the table yesterday according to our news sources up here.
To gas off at the TWU when the MTA won't even bargain demonstrates a knuckle-dragging quantity for the railfanning public here that suggests that perhaps a strike MIGHT be useful if nothing more than to remove those sharp edges from the knuckles of some as they walk instead of ride.
Don't mind me, but I'm just floored at how many people just don't get this - the "rank and file" here aren't even EXPECTING a raise this coming year, but certainly do NOT want to get cut back and then nothing when EVERY republican is saying that the "recession is over and by this time next year, the economy will be strong again."
Our lawgivers can demonstrate to us that these words are true by negotiating with TWU from a "position of strength" and offer 0,4,7 or 0,3,4 ... -3.2,0,0 tells ME that I'd better move out of the state because our politicians *KNOW* that things are going to be MORE screwed up and expensive next year than THIS year ... "time to bail out" is the message here.
But seriously, if TWU is taking lumps, why isn't the MTA or Paturkey? THAT'S what *I* have a problem with ... it's all so ONE SIDED ...
(So now they ask for a raise after three years and are getting kicked in the teeth by those who SQUANDERED a lot of money in a time when this nation had its greatest wealth in naerly 100 years? Why isn't anyone upset with MTA management or the politicos and their cronies who stole your money?)
Let's be clear, its the politicos and their cronies, not the bureaucrats, who are responsible. And though Giuliani committed quite a few financial crimes with Vallone's help (they'd better Thank God for term limtis). But the real evildoers and Pataki, Bruno and Silver.
Agreed. But there seem to be a LOT of people here who prefer to blame the guy or gal in the tiny TA box, OR Bloomberg. In both cases, the real fault lies elsewhere. Bloomie's got some time to create his own screwups of course, but this isn't one of them. For Paturkey and Bruno, this mess is just another day in the life. And they got re-elected and the people have a short memory so they'll slide as usual. That's just amazing ...
Anybody spot Herr Mayor and his bunker babe lately? :)
[They predicted a budget shortfall for this year, and PRESTO! MTA is operating at a surplus.]
- I don't remember reading about a surplus. Who reported that?
- Is that a REAL surplus, or just a SMALLER THAN EXPECTED DEFICIT?
Let's over-simplify this: You expect to owe $10, but you actually end up owing only $6.
1. Is the $4 difference a surplus? Of course not - you just owe less that you expected.
2. Should you breathe a sigh of relief because you're LESS IN DEBT, or should you spend another $4 (that you really don't have) JUST to meet your projected $10 loss?
There is is, plain and simple. Most people understand the difference between having a surplus and merely owing less; obviously, TWU does not.
In the 1996 contract talks layoffs becasue of a deficit were threatened and the TWU blinked later the TA did have a surplus.
That only works once, that is also part of the 'open the books' cry.
"In the 1996 contract talks layoffs because of a deficit were threatened and the TWU blinked later the TA did have a surplus"
FIRST :The so called surplus was a lower then expected loss. It did not mean the MTA NYCT took in more money then it spent.
SECOUND: The additional monies could not be anticipated in 1996. The monies came from a surcharge on phone lines. With the internet boom. People added second phone lines at record speed in order to surf the web. In addition many DOT COMS and business added additional phone lines to provide interne access to their business.
With the advent of broadband (DSL, cable modem) people are shedding the extra phone lines. Business either switched to broadband or went out of business. With the switchover a good portion of the surcharge monies are no more and never will be again.
In addition many people including myself have given up their land line phone altogether further reducing monies received from the MTA surcharge. Their is no MTA surcharge on Cell Phones
Additional money came from the surcharge the MTA charges on bridges and Tunnel tolls. Traffic over the MTA bridges and tunnels peaked in the late 1990's
It is about time the MTA stops spending OUR money like water. They need to improve the efficiency of transit operations
1) Eliminate all unneeded staff.
a) Eliminate all station agents Increase police patrols and install surveillance cameras to aid rider safety. Station agents almost as make just as much as police officers.
2) Automate most train switching and dispatching and tracking
3) Deploy technology to allow advanced OPTO where feasible. Immediately institute OPTO on all lines after 10 PM and on some lines all weekend.
4) Deploy automated tracking on buses where feasible.
5) Hold MTA management accountable to the public. Open up the books. Relocate MTA headquarters and other support staff to lower price real estate. The renovation at 2 Broadway is over $300 million dollars over budget and not finishes yet. The money would have been better spend on a new building in an area that the city is looking to redeveloped EX downtown Brooklyn where the TA both owned property usable for an office building (the Atlantic ave LIRR complex ) and the developer was looking for an anchor tenant
1. Please indicate who is unneeded and why.
1a. Police are not under NYC Transit's jurisdiction. The station agent plan calls for many to be eliminated, and for station agents to take on more of a customer service role and less of a sales role.
2. This would require millions, if not hundreds of millions, of capital dollars. There certainly would be an operating savings, but it would take many years to be realized.
3. This would require a change in policy to allow full-length OPTO trains. That would seem unlikely (remember, NYC subway trains are longer than most subway trains, and there are several sharply curved platforms).
4. Again, this would cost significant capital money -- not to say that it shouldn't be done.
5. No objection here.
David
The TWU was saying that it doesn't make sense to have a huge surplus one year and a huge deficit the next. They are right.
The surplus wasn't real. Pataki and the legislature have Enroned this state.
If you've been on this board long enough, you know I've been saying so for several years. They did particular damage to the MTA by keeping the fare from rising so long, loading on so much debt in the MTA capital plan (backed by the fare), and giving away pension enhancements while cutting employer contributions to the pension funds. Each of these generated a few letter to the editor rants from me, and others in the know. But since the pain was put off to the future, no one cared, and the bastards were all re-elected.
The future is now. So I don't blame the TWU for being pissed. They are just pissed, and threatening to hurt, the wrong people.
I don't remember reading about a surplus. Who reported that?
- Is that a REAL surplus, or just a SMALLER THAN EXPECTED DEFICIT?
It's been reported as a SURPLUS. Anywhere from 33mil to 42 mil. It's been reported. This includes money from the sales tax however.
It was reported, all right -- by news reporters too lazy to do better than quote the Straphangers' Campaign.
David
I just got off a southbound 2 at 86th Street. Is there a blockage on the express track? If it was filling in a gap in 1 service, I hereby announce the arrival of the Messiah.
(Thanks to the local run, it only took one bus and three trains, not four, to get home from Co-op City. How convenient!)
Would you believe Pelham Bay Park to Flushing in 17 minutes?
The downtown 3 was running local as far as 34 St earlier this afternoon, come to think of it.
By Subway?
QBx1. We were on it together; I got off at Pelham Bay Park and he stayed on to Flushing. I was considering staying on and taking the 7 instead, but traffic was heavy and I had to get home. It looks like I might have actually gotten home sooner on the 7.
I was on a 3 express from 72 to 42 around 4:45. A few minutes before that, a 2 passed through 86 on the express track.
[Thanks to the local run, it only took one bus and three trains, not four, to get home from Co-op City.]
Two-train options from Co-op City to 86th Street & Broadway:
- Bx25/Bx26 to Allerton Avenue & White Plains Road, then #2 to #1.
- Bx28/Bx30 to Gun Hill Road & White Plains Road, then #2 to #1.
- QBx1 to Flushing, then #7 to #1.
Of course, for a $3 fare there's the BxM7 to the M86.
It is about time to start plans to rebuild WTC. The only question is should we build it as tall as it was or should we make it the tallest building in the world?
Money should not be a problem as a bond issue with patriotic ferver should take care of the cost of building.
Defense should be taken care of with a battery of anti-aircraft guns in a radious around the new WTC and restrictions on commercial air travel (as is in downtown DC) should be in place to protect the buildings in downtown and midtown.
We are New Yorkers and Americans. It is not right for us to back down and cower to terrorist threats. Even if no one wants to lease in the WTC the building itself should be the called for monument to the victims. On the WTC grounds there should be a memorial and the new towers should be dedicated to the fallen victims in the towers and in the airplanes. A little museum can be built (similar in size to the one housing the Liberty Bell).
We should get on with our life, rebuild the towers and snub our noses to fear and criticism of future attacks.
Let's Get it On and Let's Get it Up! We are AMERICANS!
This is my own idea:
How about building one tower, just as tall as the WTC, but built with a footprint with the same area that the combined original twin towers were. (Each side would have to be 1.412 (the square root of 2) times longer than a single WTC tower.) It's total volume - office space - would be the same volume as the original combined twin towers. It, of course would have to be built much more structurally stronger so that even a Jumbojet hitting it would not make it fall down
>It would have to be structurally stronger? Naw, just put some anti-aircraft guns on the roof. The guns would be cheaper than the extra structural integrity.
I am only half kidding.
The original twin towers were already one of the widest buildings in New York City, making them wider would make them too wide.
The old World Trade Center buildings were ugly. The only thing that made them look nice on the skyline was the fact that there were two. They looked like two perfect crystals rising from a rough surface.
The old World Trade Center buildings were ugly. The only thing that made them look nice on the skyline was the fact that there were two. They looked like two perfect crystals rising from a rough surface.
The fact that there were two did make them look kind of graceful in their own way. They were not the prettiest buildings, but they did have a lot of cool features, such as the window lines going straight up from top the botton, the pointed windows near the bottom, etc. They were graceful in their own akwardness. Just one of them would have looked totally akward, especially since they were straight boxy buildings.
I like the idea of one tall replacement though. It would have to be architectually different than the old WTC though. Not only could they not be replaced, they probably shouldn't be replaced. The new building should have it's own unique architecture, and again a single straight boxy tall building from top to bottom would look strange.
I do hope though that we do get something tall there again though. The old WTC may not have been the "prettiest" buildings, but they were "ours".
I always hoped that Trump would have built his towers near the Brooklyn Bridge so that Manhattan would have super tall buildings on both sides of the island.
It was called, when considered, a balance to the WTC towers.
I always hoped that Trump would have built his towers near the Brooklyn Bridge so that Manhattan would have super tall buildings on both sides of the island.
Manhattan had balance before in an interesting manner: Midtown and Downtown had matching buildings:
Supertall building:
Downtown: WTC
Midtown: Emipre State Bldg.
Tall Art Deco building:
Downtown: American International Bldg.
Midtown: Chrysler building
Grossly large and hated building:
Downtown: 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
Midtown: Metlife(Pan Am) bldg.
The other great feature was that they were not in the same plane. This made you get an amazing angle from just about any direction. The towers had a habbit of being able to poke out above the "steet horizon" on many o NYC's thorughfares.
Reportedly, one of the new plans created by the 7 architectural firms includes a structure that would be the tallest in the world. But, it would not be entirely offices. More like a combo of Offices and a cultural center.
As far as my opinion.... The New world trade center should have 2 supertall skyscrapers, though not necessarily being twins.
They must be at least as tall as the old ones were.
Not necessarily. As long as it is tall enough to stand out among the other skyscrapers, I'd like it.
There is a developer who is proposing to construct a 1050' tower at Broadway and Fulton sts. (above the B'way Nassau complex). It's uncertain at this point, but that building would definately make a statement. It would also be the second tallest building in NY (taller than the chrysler building by a whopping 4 feet. Still, it would be taller than any other downtown building, including the 'mast' height extension of the American International bldg.) Some people believe that it would be wrong to build when there's so much space in a slumping downtown. But, we need to remember that the original WTC was built in the slumping NYC 70's economy, and it eventually led to the re-establisment of Lower Manhattan as a 1st rate business center.
Hopefully whatever they build there would be at least as tall as the old WTC, however, I do agree that even if it was slightly shorter, it would still make a statement. Whatever they build though has to be much taller than the Financial Center to make it stand out. (I'm not sure how tall the WFC is). It could not be only slightly taller than the WFC, it has to be much taller, otherwise we will have just another nondescript building, just like any other in the city. The Financial Center is a nice group of buildings, but it does not really make a statement on the skyline, at least not like the Empire State, the Chrysler Building, or the Citicorp Building does (or the WTC did).
The WFC is nowhere near the height of other comparable buildings in the area. 3 WFC is 739 ft tall, and is the 163rd tallest building in the world, and no22 in NYC. (for now, many taller buildings are going up).
The newest tall buildings are the Time warner Center's twin towers (THE TWIN TOWERS ARE STILL STANDIN'!!!!) and, ironically, the new Bloomberg tower, though the 'berg tower has a ways to grow. Additionally, the new 7 WTC is supposed to be as tall as Time Warner's towers.
Defense should be taken care of with a battery of anti-aircraft guns in a radious around the new WTC
I, uh, don't think so ...
You're right..... Hey, let's rebuild the redbirds into planes and allow railfans to fly them in defense of manhattan!
Yes, we are Americans all, but from what I've heard they have prioritized redevelopment as follows
1) Create a memorial to those lost
2) Build a transit hub
3) Create office/commercial space.
Nothing's set in stone.
wayne
I support you fully. The tops of both towers should be used by the AirForce and Coast Guard as regional air and seaspace monitoring hubs. The non-tourist tower should be equipped with SAM's and SSM's as well as a CIWS. The missiles (either Patriots or HAWKS and Harpoons) have a range of around 100 miles and could defend the entire region with 30 seconds notice.
You want to build a skyscraper or a military base? If you reeeallllly had to do this, a simple base in the Navy Yard (brooklyn) or Jersey accomplishes the same thing.
Do you want to live in New York or Hanoi? Perhaps you'd rather live in Baghdad?
AA in a large town is not going to work, you need to hit the threat before the threat can even take off. CIWS should NEVER EVER be an option, all that does is break up the target while it's over a heavily populated area. Plus, the chances of a mishap are WAY to great, how would you like to be the one to give the order to fire on civilians?
Say one day some non-responsive Cessna is heading for your building, or maybe the VFR corridor. You call to it, and it doesn't respond, so you open fire on it at 1.4km, just under a mile. We'll assume that the plane is approaching from the south, and the intercept occurs over the harbor, that way NYFD doesn't have to come out and clean up your mess. At the last second the plane jinks away and the pilot comes on the radio, screaming that it was broken, and that he couldn't transmit, you try to disengae the Phalanx.
However, it is too late, the Phalanx is made to deal with 1500mph missiles, and this Cessna isn't even doing 200, the burst from the Phalanx traces through the center of the cabin, top to bottom, three of the rounds literally exploding both the pilot and his daughter seated behind him. His son, seated next to him screams in sync with his wife, right behind the son, unfortunately for you, the son has his hand gripping the stick tightly, holding down the speak button on the radio, for the next 3 or so seconds all you hear is the son wailing his heart out, the wife would probably be audible in the background. When the plane hits the ocean, it collapses, the firewall may be strong, but it's not strong enough to keep the engine out of the lap of the son, his seat gives way when his small body is crushed by the lycoming 4 cylinder racing across the 3 feet, and it shoots into his mother, behind him, killing her as well.
Well congratulations, you scratched one tourist family out of Old Bridge, NJ, just celebrating the reopening of the VFR corridor and oggling the new tower. I hope you're pleased with yourself.
May I ask what this fixation is with the Mk15 Phalanx, it's borderline unhealthy. As I noted above, the Phalanx only has a range of 1,436 meters. That's 1.4 km or slightly under a mile. An airliner hit at that range by anything short of a 2000lb bomb is gonna hit the building, it may not cause as much damage as it would intact, but people would definitely die in your building. The Navy now considers the Phalanx obsolete, and is replacing it with a missile called the Rolling Airframe Missile, RAM.
It is just a horrible idea to even think that AAA atop a building in Manhatten can be sucessful. Where would the spent shells go? Brooklyn? Queens? Harlem? Hoboken? Bullets do not just disappear (undoubtedly much to the dissapointment of our oil enriched Persian Gulf friends with AKs), they need to land somewhere, and, a bullet has a very low drag coefficent, which means low drag and high terminal velocity. How are you going to explain to the media that the brutal sniper killing in Long Island City, you know, the one where the shell was large enough to split the victim in half after she was hit in the pelvic area, right? How do you explain that you were just trying to shoot down a suspicious looking helicopter, turned out it was ABC 7's. I'm sure that after you tried to shoot down one of their own, the media is gonna love telling about the innocent walking along the east river cut down in a hail of 20mm gun fire!
Even if you don't hit a person, think of the property damage that a 20 mm incindiary shell could do to some of the facades in the city. 20mm may seem small, however, get a ruler and look at how big a 9 mm looks, then look at a 20mm, it's twice as big, often 4x the weight (length grows to maintain aspect ratio). Now, imagine 10 of those plunging into a window row in some Glass Facade building in New York, even brick buildings would need a rather large repair job, but glass buildings would be a hazard, both to those in them, and those on the sidewalks below.
The really really ridiculous thing is that Jtrainloco's plan could very easily come to fruitation, that is if Gdubya Bridge gets his way. If Dubya gets his Missile Defence system, then we get three missile systems. At the furthest out would be the NMD interceptor, which is doing sooooo well that it has people in the Pentagon, Capitol and White House talking about using Nuclear armed missiles to intercept ICBMs. That is just great, a technology 40 years old, that we discarded 30 years ago because we realized that hardening the whole friggin country, in addition to ALL our satellites, and the systems of all our allies against an EMP pulse was gonna cost us way too much money. Seems great ideas just keep coming back to haunt us. The next layer would be the THAAD, which is the THeater Area Anti-ballistic missile Defence sytem. This would catch the leakers from the NMD interceptors, but so far this kinetic kill weapon is having just about the same luck, and now people are talking about using a nuke on it as well. So now, not only are all of our nice little elctronic gizmos dead, but we've got upper atmosphere nuclear explosions, which I thought we figured out were bad for us in the 1950s, when we thought there could be no problems from those wonder chemicals CFCs, and were considering digging a new panama canal through nicaragua with 150 kiloton nukes buried 100 or so feet underground. Yep, the great ideas just keep coming back, this administration needs to watch the history channel at the least, a quick peek in a history book wouldn't kill them either.
The final layer would be the PAC-3 (Patriot Advance Capability-3 [don't ask me where the other 2 went, I think 1 was the missile that shot down the scuds, but couldn't be sure]). This actually looks like the only missile to stand a chance. It is thusfar the only missile in the world to engage a ballistic missile in anger. However, the original had problems differentiating between the warhead and the fuel tank of the Scud, so, more often than not, it would blow up an empty fuel tank, leaving the warhead unmolested to do it's job on Isreal or Saudi Arabia. The PAC-3 somehow corrects that, I think it's with an Imaging IR camera (like the ones that brought us pictures of GBU-15s flying through windows doors and stuff[note, if the bomb is flying through something, it is NOT LASER GUIDED, no matter what the airhead anchorman says, think about it, why do they need a laser if they already have a camera on the front? laser guided bombs are seen in airplane mounted cameras and are usually at odd angles moving away from the target as the crew gets the hell out of Dodge]), which can see the missile and tell which end to hit. It also has a bunch of extra manuvering stuff, like thrust vectoring and reaction control jets to provide manuverabilty in space, or at least at very high altitudes.
Now, all of these ICBM intercepting modifications make the PAC-3 one bad ass SAM. Which returns me to my point, if 'El Presidente for Life' (just wait until the summer of 2003) Dubya goes and deploys his missile shield in numbers that would give the ABM treaty (which, BTW, we wiped our asses with at the begining of Dubyas term, I must admit that he must smell better than he did when governor of texas, those damn labor contracts and health laws are only so long, at least foreign diplomats know how to write good long documents for Dubya's hygene) a heartattack, then every large city in the country, especially New York, will get at least one or two PAC-3 batteries. And that PAC-3 battery would have had one of those airliners dead while it flew over Albany (sorry bout the CF6 in the front yard, kev).
If we wanted to actually demonstrate intelligence, and think, something that 'Il Douche' has had a hard time with until now, we'd be stopping the terrorists long before they thought about plane tickets. In this kind of counterterrorism, a success is a 3rd page story for a day, a failure is a front page story for weeks, even months. If we really ever want to feel some security like the "good old days," we need to invest heavily in our intelligence organs. Because I doubt we could find a country that could properly play the nuclear stalemate game quite as well as the Russians, nuclear mutually assured destruction is out. We could make all the world afraid of us, that seems to be the path that GWB is taking, but so far he's doing a REALLY bad job, really doing more saber-rattling than shooting, and making us all look like fools while he pursues some goddamn political war against Saddam. Isreal, masters of political subtly that they are (yeah right, Pol Pot was more of a diplomat than Sharon has ever been) So really our only alternative is to kick any opponents down as they are striking us.
This requires intelligence, to know when and where the attack will be, and a bit of the fear thing. The nearest thing I could think of would be just happening to have 10 armed federal agents on each of the 9/11 flights, not blanket coverage, but a focused counter strike catching the terrorists in the act, after all, a box cutter may be illegal on a plane, but that doesn't mean you were gonna take over the plane and fly it into the WTC, does it (think Pre-9/11)? To do something like this, we need people on the ground to talk to the natives and report back, not a satellite that may or may not provide solid intel. Actually we need a balance, but right now we are way too into the Satellite thing, we need more spies. Then comes the fear thing, if we hear about something bad about to happen to us, we have a group that can take care of it quickly, quietly, and with our handwriting all over it. Admittedly this approach doesn't sons of ex-presidents any more points than his stupid sabre rattling does, so it probably won't be adopted under the current regime, or any other for that reason, but it still seems like a good idea, unfortunately it comes close to several poor movie and TV show plots, but perhaps for once hollywood got it right.
This kind of system would be 100 percent more effective than any gun, missile, lasers, or anything else you could think to stick on that building. Not only that, but we'd stop hundreds of other things, net tons of peripheral intelligence, and go back to being the protectors of the world.
Thanks for a breath of logic. And yes, the plane that hit the north tower flew RIGHT over the property here as it was turning - if only we'd known. But it's nice to hear someone with a clue as to how things really work and what the real pitfalls are, because we're LESS safe than we were before ... hopefully nothing bad will happen within the promised two to five year time span ahead while all those Homeland Security Deck chairs get rearranged. Never could figure out why FBI and CIA, the ones who REALLY screwed up (owing to a lack of FUNDING primarily) were never put into HSA, but then again it once again shows what kind of brainpower we get when we pull those levers on the occasional November day. :(
In case you missed my post, the CIWS would be used in addition to the long range SAMS, which would be the chief weapon. The CIWS would be used as a last ditch to break up airliners or missiles (a real threat that can be possibly launched from ships offshore) on an imminant, unavoidable collision course with downtown. Light aircraft pose no real threat to anybody. Also, as it should be obvious, falling deconcentrated debris is more preferable then a missile impact with a dense population center like a building or stadium.
Well, if you're gonna put a SAM somewhere, why not just wait for Dubya's NMD when you can have your PAC-3 there for all to look and marvel at. Why put them on the building. If you MUST have missiles, perhaps you should look into getting the USS Ticonderoga (or maybe the Princeton, she might be early cause of some old mine damage) when she comes out of service in 20 years.
In the interim, are you sure I can't intrest you in the USS Kidd and Scott that are sitting down here in the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, DDGs 993 and 995 respectively, they were built for the Shah of Iran before it was discovered that he didn't have the control over his people that the thought he did. The US navy bought them in the 80's at rock bottom, all four of the class for what two new Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates cost. In the early ninties all the fleet went in for New Threat Update, which included a SPS-48E and SPS-49C radar system, Standard SM2MR missile systems, NTDS, and improved ECM facilities. With less than 300,000 miles on them, they are real cream puffs, and you could drive them home today! The kids will love em, park em at the intrepid air sea museum, they'll fit right in! What will it take for me to get you, the City of New York, into one of these beauties? They've got factory air designed to deal with the Persian Gulf in summer! Come on down to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, where we're GOING CRAZY, we must blow out our stock of ships for Kavaerner, be sure to check out the USS America, CV-66 while you're down here, perfect for that small country that has begun to feel what adolf hitler called, 'Lebensraum.' Habla Espanol!
Actually if you parked an Aegis equiped destroyer or cruiser in the hudson around the IASM, and pushed the SPY-1 radar up to full blast, not only would the ship-service turbine have to cut hotel power to portions of the ship to keep up the demand, but you'd be in danger of frying the airliners that head up the hudson before making sharp eastbound turns into LaGuardia, the system can put that many watts of RF into the air.
And even if you managed to knock the plane down at a considerable range, both of the planes headed into the WTC made extensive overland flights, with only the final, terminal portions overwater. Would you have sentenced the people who happened to be under the intercept site to death, simply because you have an itchy trigger finger? Remember Lockerbiegh (sp?), that 747 rained fire and brimstone on the scottish town, just imagine that happening over Long Island, Suburban New Jersey, Westchester, or the Rockaways (oh wait, airbus has been there, crashed that).
The only real air defence system, if you insist upon having a guns and missiles ADS, that could realistically work would be Manned F-15s or 16s on patrol at 30000 ft over NYC everyday. The fighter pilots go beyond brilliant weapons, they can differentiate between a pilot that needs help and is signaling, and a pilot that his hell bent on destruction, they can gradually escalate the intercept, it's not just "shoot at 20 miles if course doesn't change", and having an F-15C off each wing with 8 missiles apiece might just change the terrorists minds, or at least provide the hostages a real reason to fight, not that the fighters can in anyway help, but it's a moral boost to see your guys seemingly looking out for you, and that you will not just be summarily shot out of the sky like some kind of fly.
However, I belive these flights have been stopped, at some point it becomes cost inefficent to have fighters in the air at an enormous amount per flight weighed against the cost of 3000 people (You hear that National Taxpayers Union? How you like that? Butchers, knee-jerk right wing reactionaries, your avarice is keeping our planes from the skies, which could save 3000+ lives). Of course a much more cost-effective way to go about this, rather than some high maintenance fighter over the city every day, or a missile site that is a hazard to pretty much every one, is simple, Intelligence. We need a C4I system that can handle such unusual calls as the type that came in on 9/11/01, but more importantly, we need to go back to the bad old days. Way back, to WWII, when US OSS men were feared and simulaniously revered for their abilites. Blanket coverage sucks, and clearly our capturing of terrorists only leads to them throwing a bit of lead on archcroft's already heavy blanket over our rights. We need to get the intel right from the terrorists mouths, then pick them up and carry them off, right in the act.
And, for gods sakes, would the whining media SHUT THE F!@# up about our plans, Afganistan may be a stone age country, but these days, we could wire fred flinstone up with Direct DSL if we really wanted to (well not WANT, more like if there was a profit to be made). I really don't care what the CIA or FBI cares to do with captured terrorists, really, is one guy that they picked up off the street, aiming some horribly outdated missile at an airliner, for all I care they could make him a woman, so long as it deters other idiots from trying the same thing, just don't announce it in the papers, don't make a press release (I'm sure Ari Fleischer would love that one!).
It really is kinda sad, we've gone back to fort building, the Nike Missile sites that were strung around New York and other Major cities in the US were often proclaimed to be the final stage of fort building in the US. At the time the dozen or so missile sites per city, located like the marks on a clock around it, represented a major investment of capital, similar to the great fort buildings of the past. Today we can package the entire missile system into a trailer and haul it around the country, yet some retard still seems to think that we need fixed PAC-3 sites. It's one step forward, two steps back, as always with this administration (regime? Junta?).
MAGINOT LINE PART DUEX, RIGHT AHEAD, PLEASE REMEMBER, HISTORY REPEATS!
Besides, they won't fly any more planes into things, they've learned that SA-7 Grails are cheaper than airline tickets, get enough of em, and the rules of probablity say, that by some miracle, that missile, which would have a hard time following a welding torch in a meat locker, will hit something important. Just start praying to allah as loudly and quickly as you can that it crash into something that you want, it has to be more accurate than a Scud.
Had a SAM battery been anywhere around NYC on 9/11 I am positive that the second aircraft would have been shot down somewhere over New Jersey or the bays thus saving at least one tower and at least 800 lives.
Anyway, the real reason for the missile bettery atop the WTC is mostly for symbolic show. It is also common sence for the largets metro area in the United States to be protected from sneak attack. It was appaling how unprepared we were for enemy attack on 9/11. Back in the 1950's and 60's we had 5 minute fighter responce time over every populated region in the country. I had assumed that if there was identified a hostile aircraft inbound to a major US city that something would be able to intercept it. Also, I had always been told that at Pentagon had Popup missile batteries, but it seems like that was wrong as well. We don't necessarily need forts, but some place where weapons can be available at the ready.
The WTC 2 defence platform is not even for the current war on terror. It is for 50 years from now when once again we let down our guard and assume everything is ok. 5 minute responce to an identified hostile is the most basic element for "Homehald Security".
>>> Had a SAM battery been anywhere around NYC on 9/11 I am positive that the second aircraft would have been shot down somewhere over New Jersey or the bays thus saving at least one tower and at least 800 lives. <<<
You are still living in your own dream world aren't you? It was the second impact that convinced everyone that the first one was not an accident. Prior to the second impact, no one would have ordered a SAM fired at an airliner.
>>> Back in the 1950's and 60's we had 5 minute fighter responce time over every populated region in the country. I had assumed that if there was identified a hostile aircraft inbound to a major US city that something would be able to intercept it. <<<
That five minute response time was to launch a fighter aircraft, similar to what it was on 9/11/01. No one was flying combat air patrols. They too would have not stopped this type of attack. They were looking for fleets of bombers coming from over the horizon or UFOs. They were not prepared to intercept a friendly aircraft which turned into a rogue.
Tom
The air traffic controlers knew exactly what the second plane was going to do and F-15's had been scrambled from Massachuettes to stop them, however the fighters got there 20 minutes too late. I have seen countless interviews attesting to this. Had the fighters been closer the second jet would have surely been shot down.
During the base closings of the 1990's the Military stripped nearly all military infrastructuer from the Northeast to favor the South.
(I have seen countless interviews attesting to this. Had the fighters been closer the second jet would have surely been shot down.)
Are you sure of this? I don't think anyone had time to process what had happened, and get a decision from the President, at that point. Would the pilot had assessed and shot down an airliner on his own?
You're still missing the point. There won't be any more hijackings because the passengers would revolt.
I know, which is why I said it would be mstly a symbolic gesture.
However there exist very real threats from inbound overseas cargo flights (very small crews), and short range missiles launched from inbound cargo ships, like Exosets.
It seems to me just plain common sence to have defensive weapons around your largest city. Why not make a statement and put them on WIC2.
>>> It seems to me just plain common sence to have defensive weapons around your largest city. Why not make a statement and put them on WIC2. <<<
An interesting idea for a memorial to those killed. Unless the site was to be manned by volunteers (similar to BERA), the cost to taxpayers would be unacceptable to maintain a credible AA defense of NYC, and all the other cities which would say don't leave us defenseless.
Tom
Why is it stupid to have a national defence that can actually DEFEND? The cost of maintaining operational defensive weapon installations near some of our largest cities would be incredibly small compared to the national defence budget. We have thousands of troops around the world, but its too expensive to staff 30 guys in bases every 100 miles from Boston to Norfolk, Charleston to Miami, Mobile to Galveston, San Deigo to LA and Portland to Seatle?
>>> but its too expensive to staff 30 guys in bases every 100 miles from Boston to Norfolk, Charleston to Miami, Mobile to Galveston, San Deigo to LA and Portland to Seatle? <<<
It sure is. Where do you get the idea that 30 people would be able to man such a site. That is only about 7 on duty at any one time considering that it would be necessary to staff 24/7 and take into account leaves, illness, etc. Close to 100 at each site would be more like it. And of course these are positions that are not in the military now, so unless there is a cutback somewhere else, these would be new positions, and there would have to be additional support for these troops such as uniforms, vehicles, medical care and the additional missiles themselves. You don't just hire these guys off the street and put them on a missile site either. They have to be trained and practice firing the missiles they are assigned to. The missile systems have to be checked regularly to be sure they will work when required, and someone must fix any problems that are found in that testing. And unless you want to make the same mistake the French did with the Maginot line, you would have to also line our northern border and the Mexican border. If you want to protect against hijacked airliners as well as foreign aircraft then you also need to surround inland cities such as St. Louis, Denver, and Atlanta.
It is not something I want the government to waste money on.
Tom
>>> The air traffic controlers knew exactly what the second plane was going to do <<<
I am sure they were the first ones to suspect that was the destination of the second plane moments before it hit, but civilian air traffic controllers are not the ones who would have the authority to order a military jet to shoot down a commercial jet liner, nor did they have direct communication with anyone who had such authority. Prior to 9/11/01 that would have been POTUS.
Tom
Airline traffic should not be allowed near Manhattan from Central Park and south. There should also be restriction on large commercial planes flying over the two rivers around Manhattan.
Restrictions should be in proportion to the size of the plane. As previously noted, small airplanes will not do much damage, as was the experience in downtown Tampa, Fla.
What no one seems to realize is the fact that the likelihood of another airliner hijacking is basically zero. You can rest assured that if terrorists tried to take over an aircraft, every passenger onboard would rise up in violent revolt. You'd have 80-year-old grandmothers jumping into the fray with their fists flying. No way the hijackers would succeed.
The obsession you cite is a classic case of refighting the last battle.
If there is another attack (and let's hope not) it will be a ship full of explosives (hopefully not nuclear) exploding at South Ferry, or a tractor trailer exploding on a crowded midtown street.
Al Qaeda is not going to waste any precious (to them) human resources on an attack that would probably fail because it's exactly what everybody is on the lookout for.
They've surprised us EACH time ... and shame on our CHRONICALLY underfunded through the 90's (CONGRESS' fault, Clinton BEGGED for the money and DIDN'T get it) ... there's ANOTHER pattern here ... if they DON'T get their chosen target the FIRST time, they'll be back. 1993, 2001, 'nuff said. Same for OTHER targets. But there's something ELSE *we* don't understand. Once there's BEEN a terrorist act, all you have to do to keep the nonsense flowing is to blow into a brown paper bag, and slap it against your other hand.
And THAT is their strategy now ... with CNMSBNFOX constantly SPECULATING and twitching *US* out with Anthrax, smallpox, nuclear bomb in Times Square, along with Shrub "Saddam tried to kill my DADDY!" *instead* of doing their job as journalists, reporting FACT, our MEDIA has REPLACED Al Qaeda as "the terrorists" ... Usama and his buddies can kick back and do all the brewskis they WANT. WE'RE DOING THEIR JOB FOR THEM!!! (and so is our "administration.")
But as long as WE'RE terrorizing OURSELVES, and our media and politicos are *AIDING AND ABETTING* then they don't have to do SQUAT. It's a FINE "yellow day" and how are you? :(
Al Aqaeda can wait until we stop scaring OURSELVES.
The really really ridiculous thing is that Jtrainloco's plan
THHIS IS NOT MY PLAN!!!!!
Sorry, that came across wrong, you wrote:
You want to build a skyscraper or a military base? If you reeeallllly had to do this, a simple base in the Navy Yard (brooklyn) or Jersey accomplishes the same thing.
I simply took that as your interpretation of JM's crazy plan. Thus placing the SAMs off site would be your idea, not plan, sorry, poor choice of words. I merely wished to give credit for the idea, although it has probably been dreamed up by every military-type ever since 9/11/01. In response to JM's response to the message you RE'd to, I offer a similar idea, doesn't mean it's my plan, just an idea. I meant no harm, cept that I grouped you with Jersey "Deadeye" Mike over there, and for that I am very sorry.
You did not consider the deterrent effect of defense on top of the skyscraper. It should be publicized so all bad guys know that they will never make it to the building.
Addtionally, I doubt that another attack by way of hijacked commercial airplanes will take place in our generation. The bad guys have "been there and done that" so they will go on to other creative ways to kill innocent civilians. The deterrence will succeed in deterring any posible bad guy from perpetrating a kamikaze attack. Their attacks will come about in different ways in the future.
Let us always keep our intelligence up to par so we are never again fooled as we were in Pearl Harbor and on 9/11/01.
I have been told that at Pearl Harbour we keep 4 F-15 armed and ready to launch 24/7 as a symbolic gesture to say that we will never be caught unprepared again. If this is true, 1 the irony is just sickening and 2, a similar gesture of symbolism should be considered for the WTC site. I don't think that the Japanese are going to attack Pearl Harbour, but (so I've been told) we are ready to thawart one.
>>> I have been told that at Pearl Harbour we keep 4 F-15 armed and ready to launch 24/7 as a symbolic gesture to say that we will never be caught unprepared again. <<<
That's not a symbolic gesture. They are kept in a ready state to go investigate any unidentified aircraft approaching the Hawaiian Islands. This is not because we fear a sneak attack, but because approaching unidentified aircraft must be investigated, and when investigating the unknown, they go armed to keep all options open. We keep armed and ready fighter aircraft elsewhere in the United states also.
Tom
Something really needs to be done about the gaping hole, both in the Manhatten Skyline, and at the World Trade Center.
So many people have been clamoring that their loved one's remains are there and so on, it's a grave site, and so on. That kind of argumant makes me sick to the stomach. Exactly where do you think we'd be today if, every time 3000 or so people died, we made the place off limits and stuck a cemetary with graves for people who may or may not have died at the scene? All of europe would be unusable by now, way back in the 1600s with the Hundred Years war would have seen to that. 3000 some people died at Pearl Harbor, yet, with a small memorial near fords island, the base has gone on as a US naval base, and is now one of the most important bases for the US Pacific fleet, it has all of our Nuclear Powered attack boats in the pacific, we couldn't do that if we just backed off and called the whole harbor a grave site. Believe me, people didn't just die on the Arizona, they also died on all those battleships, yet most were righted, cleaned up, repaired, and sent out to battle. Josef Stalin once said, "One thousand deaths is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic." Boy are we ever proving old Joey right, 3000 people is nothing to spit at, but lets face it, we got off lightly, if anything, we should be exuberent, lets build a new tower, and do it smarter this time.
I also like AP's idea that they be crystal-like, I favor obsidian, a beautiful black rock found around volcanos. It's like a shard of glass from a beer bottle, but much much darker in color, nearly completely opaque, yet when shined slightly, is just like a black mirror, completely reflective. Unlike AP, I would go with one big 2000ft building in one corner of the site, theres more than enough room for a generous aspect ratio. The building would be slighly faceted, I've always liked the Atlas rocket, which seems to take some cue from the Empire State Building, slanting inward at first (really this was just for the zoning of the time, or, in the case of the atlas, to accomodate the lower 2 half-stage rocket engines). However, it would be the form of an Atlas that my building would take, starting slightly wide, sloping up to the main shaft of the building, where the square bottom changes 90 degrees, from there it goes up most of the height, until it begins the gentle slope inward toward the observation tower. All of it made of a shiny black glass, faceted to reflect the sun at different times.
The building would be made with a space frame, which would be accentuated by the faceted exterior and the interior would have a massive open internal area, with offices stuck to the walls, thus making exterior offices only slightly better than interior ones. At the bottom of the interior section would be a kind of rememberance thing, becuase, even though we need to get over it for our health, at the same time we've got to remember for our heritage. The bottom would have the standard stuff: museum, garden type thing, meeting area and so on. However, the bottom would not be the bottom of the building, it would be some 10 stories above ground, where some structural members from each of the 4 corners of the spaceframe meet at a central pillar that carries the load to the basement. Within the last 2 stories, there would be provisions for the street to carry on, right through the bottom of the building, as it had before. There are many cases of roads going through buildings, it's be like a tunnel for the drivers, except that there'd be cross-streets, just no pedestrians, they'd be forbidden from the tunnels, and routed up into the building. There is no reason that, with competant engineering, the base of a very tall tower cannot be pierced by a half dozen roads.
Well, that is my proposal for the building, more to follow on the folleys of AAA guns on buildings as well as a somewhat comprehensive rundown of our current ABM program is to follow.
That sound great, above all, we must rebuild. The only problem is, what about security in the street below? What could a truck bomb do to the building?
"What could a truck bomb do to the building?"
Not much if you put up a moderate sized security perimeter of giant concrete planters. Why do you think there are all these barricades around the Javits Federal Building?
All the successful attacks in Asia and Africa have been in places that didn't have any security barrier.
There would be plenty of businesses that would want to have space in new twin towers. If I had any say, I would want twin towers again. There would be no fitting way to rebuild the World Trade Center but to have twin towers standing in Lower Manhattan.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know about that. Just to build something as tall but not exactly the same would be fine to me. We need to get back on track and rebuild, but we can improve on it too.
I certainly would build something just as tall as the original Twin Towers even if it isn't exactly the same.
#3 West End Jeff
[Are we men or mice?]
Neither....we are DEVO!
We are not men / we are DEVO / we are not men / D - E - V - O
Whip it good!
--Mark
Well, the sentiment seems to be growing over the past couple of months for at least one tower that it as tall or taller than the original WTC 1 and 2. Since the odds are pretty good that nothing outside of a memorial will be built on the western eight acres of the site, the only way to come close to recapturing the same amount of office space on the eastern eight acres (between Church, Greenwich, Vescey and Liberty) is to have one lager office tower and to at least double the height of the smaller buildings that were in that area. (Relocating the office space east of Greenwhich would put workers much closer to all the current subway lines, and make putting a mass transit hub between Fulton and John Sts. east of Broadway more logical).
Of couse, the problem still comes down to getting companies to then rent anything above the 60th floor or so, and the companies getting workers to accept working above the 60th floor. Rent costs would probably have to be about on the $-per-square-foot level of a coldwater flat around Beach 36th St. in the Rockaways to get a whole lot of people/companies interested, and the only other source of tenants would be government agencies (which would bring the building back to the situation the WTC was in when it was first built).
Certainly if Larry Silverstein is going to pay for the rebuilding with his insurance settlement money, it's tough to argue that he has to build a tower that's going to lose money on its upper 50 floors. But if it's going to be built by the Port Authority, that's another story, since it would then be up to the public to decide if they want their money spent on building the world's tallest tower in Lower Manhattan again.
Of couse, the problem still comes down to getting companies to then rent anything above the 60th floor or so, and the companies getting workers to accept working above the 60th floor. Rent costs would probably have to be about on the $-per-square-foot level of a coldwater flat around Beach 36th St. in the Rockaways to get a whole lot of people/companies interested, and the only other source of tenants would be government agencies (which would bring the building back to the situation the WTC was in when it was first built).
This a COMPLETE LIE propagated by the necrocrats to discourage the building of a super tall WTC. A majority of people have expressed a desire to have a WTC as tall or taller, and a majority of people have said they would have no problem working or renting in a new taller WTC on the highest floors.
>>> a majority of people have said they would have no problem working or renting in a new taller WTC on the highest floors. <<<
Talk is cheap. What will count is getting signatures on legally binding documents committing to the rental of space in a new building.
Tom
The problem is the perception that everyone ELSE wouldn't want to work in a tall building.
Many of those polled said that they would want to work in a tall building, but they thought others wouldn't.
Very few of those "others" were found.
I worked on the 82nd floor of 2World Trade Center, but only for a month. Without hesitation, if I had the opportunity, I would work again on the 82nd floor of a new WTC.
[Money should not be a problem as a bond issue with patriotic ferver should take care of the cost of building.]
Of course, under Bush/Ashcroft, that "patriotic fervor" would carry the weight of law. People would be prosecuted for not buying those bonds (because they have no money), and companies would be prosecuted for refusing to move into the new complex.
"The only question is should we build it as tall as it was or should we make it the tallest building in the world?"
No and No. Honestly, as much as I loved the twin towers, the Port Authority did a lousy job designing the buildings, as far as safety standards are concerned.
The original design for the twin towers by the Japanese architects were to be 80 stories tall, with standard office space on each floor. But despite the warnings of the architect, the Port Authority insisted on going 30 stories taller, and having an acre of office space on every floor.
The Towers should be rebuilt as tall as possible, but with keeping safety standards in mind. In addition to a memorial, it is appropriate to rebuild the 10 million square feet of office space, Larry Silverstein is right to insist that this be done, IMO.
However, two 80-story twin towers will not cover the amount of office space needed, so I would like to see 3 80-story "tri-towers" built instead. -Nick
The rebuilding of the original WTC would prove to be a difficult task since the families are not in agreement of having a pair of "ghost" building resurrected.
In my opinion, they should. But as long as they have political factors involved, the mayor, governor, or the senator would want to hurt the families.
So with that said, most likely they will make a memorial over the graves of the WTC, but there is still massive amount of space for the WTC to be rebuilt.
Since the North Tower and the South tower were shifted N and S, you have this trapizoid hole with Vesey st. to the N and Liberty St to the S. Now, since building over the grave is never going to happen, why not build opposite where they originally were. N tower would be built South of where it originally was and S Tower would be N were it was as well. Thus leaving the original space to be a memorial, keeping the families happy and at the same time making the American/ NYC folks happy as well. Seems the most likely scenario if done.
to be cont'...
"N tower would be built South of where it originally was and S Tower would be N were it was as well."
Because both West St. and Greenwich St. (the 1/9 ROW) slant northwest to southeast, that is only possible if you build buildings with smaller footprints. Though you could build a sizable long narrow building on the former site of the Vista Hotel.
Also, north of the south tower is the PATH station, so building a massive building directly on top of it would be technically much more tricky and expensive.
The one big unimpeded space in the bathtub is the 6 WTC site north of the north tower.
*Typo* "senator would not want to hurt the families" :)
Anyways, the plan of having Air Defense is indeed a farfetched idea, in the unlikely event of someone accepting this, your going to have every other skyscraper wanting it as well...so the whole idea gets put in a complicated situation. NYC will become Fort Manhattan by the time everything gets done with guns sticking out of every building...:/
Plus, the structural integrity of the building won't be able to handle the load of massive guns on top of it (more weight on the top causes the building to sway more in the wind**) especially if made out of steel. So unless you want people to work in a swaying building, thats no good.
Bottomline, no building is can be foolproof from anything, especially a plane smashing into it (even thought WTC did survive the hit, just not the heat from so much fuel) . As long as air security increases dramatically and keep the threat to a minimum, everything should be fine without wacky gizmos having to be put in place :/
Those aren't "graves." Graves are were bodies are disposed of and cemeteries are landfills for dead waste (I have no respect for cemeteries unless they are also public open spaces). All of the body parts found at the site were taken elsewhere and those that weren't found and were disintegrated are either at Fresh Kills, or were dispersed in every direction because they were part of the dust cloud. In which case they were swept up, vacuumed or washed away with water hoses into the sewers.
All of the body parts found at the site were taken elsewhere and those that weren't found and were disintegrated are either at Fresh Kills, or were dispersed in every direction because they were part of the dust cloud. In which case they were swept up, vacuumed or washed away with water hoses into the sewers.
Sort of a crude way to put it, but you're entirely correct. There was more to that dust cloud than just inorganic stuff.
On two occassions I have boarded a R142A on the 4. The propulsion units of those trains make that characteristic "IEEEEEEEEEEE" sound as they accelerate. I remember that that sound was quite loud on the R142As on the 6 (you could hear them from inside the train too). On the 4, I cannot hear the sound at all. From outside, I could barely hear it, but inside, I can't hear the sound of the propulsion units. Is there any difference in the propulsion units of the R142As on the 4 and 6?
Kawasakis go WHEEEE, Bombardiers go WHOOOOO. Kawasakis are very high-pitched when accelerating.
If you've ever caught the difference between a R62 (Kaw) and an R62A (Bom), you'll notice the same thing. I like the Kawasaki sound better, but both are nice.
You can't compare the difference between the R-62 and R-62A with the difference between the R-142 and R-142A since the R-62 uses DC motors and the R-142 uses AC motors. The whine is the AC motors.
Also, the 4 uses the same R-142As that the 6 uses. The R-142 is used on the 2 and 5.
That would explain it then...DC Metro has the same whine.
No, only the Rohrs (1000 series) and CAFs (5000 series) have AC Traction. The Rohrs is identical to that on the MBTA 01800 series cars on the Red Line. The CAF whine is closest to the NYC cars but they are still rather different IMO.
Whichever WMATA cars have been there all along sound like the 110's.
I never rode the 110s. If you want to hear what the Rohrs sound like, I have a recording made on board one of them lasting almost 11 minutes. Click here to listen to it.
There IS one VERY slight difference that I've noticed on the R-142A's between the 4 and the 6. The interior signing on the R-142A 4 trains tends to read "The next stop is...(station name)". The interior signing on the R-142A's on the 6 on the other hand temds to read "(station name) next". That's about the only difference I've noticed.
You've spotted one of a number of telltale differences between the new program and the old. All 4 R-142A's came with the new program from the start; it's slowly making its way onto the 6.
On the R-142 arena, the 5's cars are getting the new program; I've seen it twice on the 2, but only on cars borrowed from the 5 (with 5 strip maps and all).
I think there's a new R-143 program. I only saw this train from outside, but the destination reading was "TO CANARSIE BKLYN" -- most trains omit the BKLYN.
Does the Kawasaki acceleration sound like the R143 acceleration sound?
Because I notice, the the R143 has the loud whinning sound, I also ask because I never rode a R142/142A yet.
-AcelaExpress2005
The R142A and R143 sound identical.
Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
eBay Item # 743944312
Also:
1931 IND Subway Photos, eBay #s 746295120 and 746296338
1965 IND Rockaway Division 1965 Timetable eBay #746278026
All close for bidding tomrorrow, December 13
I see that the LIRR will bypass most Queens stations in the event of a strike (as they planned to do in the 1999 strike threat). To go to work, i would have to cycle to Bayside, park my bike in a newpaper office where I work, and catch the train there.
Why is there no hue and cry from Queens commuters about this?
They don't call it the LONG ISLAND Railroad for nothin', I guess.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They don't call it the LONG ISLAND Railroad for nothin', I guess.
But Queens is part of Long Island!
This is why I came up with the name ROYAL Island.
>>>But Queens is part of Long Island! <<<
When it comes to comparative importance of Queens vs Nassau & Suffolk riders, it ain't.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The LIRR couldn't possibly handle the masses of Queens residents which would deluge them if an illegal work stoppage happens.
Don't they have the capacity to add extra trains at rush hours...?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, they do not, at the current time, have the capacity to add trains during rush hours. I sat in on a few LIRR comittee meetings over the past few months.
I found out that AM rush hour requires something like 803 train cars. And they currently own 810 operating cars. With the addition of 2 M-7 sets, they should be up to 820 or 830, but they are still operating with virtually no extra trains. Inevitably, trains fail. Equipment fails. And most railroads run with a 15% extra equipment ratio. The LIRR is under 5%, which is dangerous. And they know it. They've brought it up at the meetings, and feel lucky that the M-7's are about to come in. They're going to bring the LIRR back up to at least 15% before discarding old M-1's. So while they have the track capacity, if they use it smartly, to expand rush hour service to emergency levels, they lack equipment. That's probably why they are creating shuttle trains to Queens. It increases the usefulness of the existing equipment. Hope this answers your question. Good luck!
-Andrew Merelis
What difcultities would exist if LIRR wanted to use M1's from lets say Metro-North? Other than the third rail and the speed control, I dont know what else could be different. I would think metro north has some spare units they could give up for a few weeks if they needed to. Dont criticize me, as i'm from the island and i'm not too familar with metro north.
During the last SEPTA strike, I frequently rode VRE (Virginia) cars on my SEPTA line from Delaware County. Does the LIRR have no similar provision for borrowing equipment during disasters?
borrow equipment would make sense but unfortunatly just about every commuter agency try's to design their own equipment, which is not compatible. for example LIRR speed control is differed than equipment used by septa/mncw/njtransit/amtrak.
the DE30's are not compatible with other coaches, because of jumper setup. etc. if they standardized half problems could be solved but to justify their engineering departments they keep designing crap and keeping cost artificialy high.
the Trolley operators of past found out about stuff like this and designed the PCC car as standard car with standard parts.
another problem is because fleets are not renewed as fast a lot of operators are short cars, with no spares for strikes or snow emergencies or breakdowns.
>>>
What difcultities would exist if LIRR wanted to use M1's from lets say Metro-North? Other than the third rail and the speed control
>>>
It would cost about a $1,000,000* and probably take a few weeks to convert it to work on the LIRR trackage and then wouldn't Metro-North then be short on equipment?
*The $1,000,000 figure is an estimate based on a cost I read a few years ago for converting an LIRR car to use MNR type third-rails
Is it my imagination or is a million dollars too much to just change the third rail shoes and touch the speed control PER car.
In addition to the car shortage, LIRR is also at max capacity for number of trains going through the East River tunnels at both rush hours. This has more of an impact on the Port Wash line, because Penn is the only available western terminal for that branch.
CG
In addition to the car shortage, LIRR is also at max capacity for number of trains going through the East River tunnels at both rush hours. This has more of an impact on the Port Wash line, because Penn is the only available western terminal for that branch.
Not Hunterspoint Avenue?
Are both tracks at HPA electrified?
I don't know if turning trains there is feasible with the LIC shuttles in operation. LIC will be getting service from 6AM to 10PM.
As an aside, I'm assuming they're going to use the Main Line and not the Lower Montauk for that service. The notice does seems to imply that service will be express between Jamaica and LIC, though, so either is possible.
Are both tracks at HPA electrified?
I don't know if turning trains there is feasible with the LIC shuttles in operation. LIC will be getting service from 6AM to 10PM.
Both are electrified. You may have a point, however, about LIC shuttles being an issue.
Not to mention the MNRR will skip the Bronx during rush hours...
But will provide shuttle service to/from all Bronx stations except Melrose.
I see that the LIRR will bypass most Queens stations in the event of a strike (as they planned to do in the 1999 strike threat). To go to work, i would have to cycle to Bayside, park my bike in a newpaper office where I work, and catch the train there.
You would be better advised to ride your bicycle into Manhattan, if that's your ultimate destination. The total door-to-door travel time for a bicycle vs the subway is approximately the same for most trips.
I know someone who can get from Bay Ridge to City Hall faster than the "R" when he bikes.
I know someone who can get from Bay Ridge to City Hall faster than the "R" when he bikes.
This is usually true for most bicycle riders. It does not take any great speed to do this. The average riding speed for a bike is 15 mph, the average speed for the subways is 18 mph. When waiting time and travel time to and from a train station, then it's easy to see that it is a wash.
The transit strike monkey wrench will be that that the Brooklyn Bridge Promenade will be jammed. The City would be well advised to restrict the Brooklyn Bridge for pedestrians and the Manhattan Bridge for bicyclists. This would permit cyclists to proceed at their normal rate over the river.
I know someone who can get from Bay Ridge to City Hall faster than the "R" when he bikes.
Getting back however, is problematic....
The bike got stollen while he was at work.
: ( Elias
"I see that the LIRR will bypass most Queens stations in the event of a strike"
Not most Queens stations. Just most Queens stations on your line. Many stations are being served. See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/sd/lirr.html
Not clear why they are picking on your line.
Our New Jersey residents have to come into Penn, go out to Jamicia, then back to Long Island City and walk to Queens Plaza then reverse for a trip home.
Wouldn't it be easier to walk across town and take the ferry?
For NJ residents headed to Queens Plaza, it would probably be faster if they walk from Penn or PABT to the East River ferry at 34th Street and then take a ferry to LIC.
I don't know the inter-connections of the NY Waterway ferries, but it may be faster still for many to commute into Hoboken and then take a ferry from Hoboken to downtown and then from downtown to LIC.
CG
I suspect the NJ ferries are going to get extremely busy as people realize they can use them in imaginative ways.
For example: W 79th to lower Manhattan without walking: take a ferry to W 36th, then Newport, then lower Manhattan.
Penn to downtown: PATH to Hoboken, then a ferry.
Quite the contrary. The LIRR is adding Queens shuttles srarting from Floral Park, Lauelton, Valley Stream, Jamaica and Great Neck to serve Queens stations (although it looks like this will be for non rush hours only) see it here.
It's interesting to note that Bellerose -- a Nassau County station -- will be closed during the rush hours as well. Granted, it's only a few blocks from the City Line, but I imagine commuters from that station are even more miffed than those in Queens.
Hmm. I haven't used "miffed" in a while. It felt good.
CG
Quite the contrary. The LIRR is adding Queens shuttles srarting from Floral Park, Lauelton, Valley Stream, Jamaica and Great Neck to serve Queens stations (although it looks like this will be for non rush hours only)
It definitely is NON-RUSH hours and only 15 minute headways. Most of the lines already get half hour headways, so this is only double normal service.
Assume that an LIRR train can hold 2000 passengers vs. 1200 for an IRT #7 train. This means the LIRR's 4 tph are equivalent 6.7 tph on the #7 line. They operate 28 tph on the #7, meaning the "extra" LIRR service is roughly 1/4 of what is required.
I suppose every little bit helps, but most #7 riders need rush hour service. The LIRR respose is literally too little and too late.
"It definitely is NON-RUSH hours and only 15 minute headways."
That's not what the MTA web site says. They say rush hour too, admittedly not enough to replace the subway service.
I seem to remember that Belmont Race Way was to be put in service as a terminal os sorts. Is there any potential schedual or time table?
avid
"I seem to remember that Belmont Race Way was to be put in service as a terminal os sorts. Is there any potential schedual or time table?"
Schedule is at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/sd/lirr.html
Lots of details. Don't see any mention of Belmont.
Maybe the MTA didn't get cooperation from the RA.
I realize that in the greater scheme of things that Queens is NOWHERE near as important as Joe Bruno's precious Rensselaer county (Which Paturkey would defend to the DEATH, but not Queens - where CUOMO came from) ...
But has anybody considered calling Governor Paturkey and ASKING what he's going to do?
(518)474-8390
Good luck! Heh.
It strikes me that the contingency plan for Queens is actually fairly good.
Only the non-Bayside Port Wash stations are getting thoroughly screwed. And for them there's a ferry from Shea and a parallel bus that's not on strike that will get you to Bayside.
WELL then ... looks like nothing to complain about then. The DIRECT LINE to the Paturkey is good for any OTHER borough to call for LIRR or MNRR service too ... the number again is:
(518)474-8390
Let me know how it works out. :)
If you don't want to pay toll charges call:
212-788-3000 for Bleepburg
or 212-681-4580 for Paturkey.
Either call to praise what they're doing
or what they're not.
There are a lot of subway histories out there...Fischler's, Hood's, Cudahy's.
However they seem to overlook a fascinating aspect I've always been interrested in...transfer points, intradivisonal and otherwise.
The only cross platform BMT-IRT transfer at Queensboro Plaza is here because the BMT and IRT once jointly operated the line.
But how, and when, did the other transfers appear? When were the lengthy transfer tunnels, say, at 42nd and 14th Streets built? Were there vastly fewer transfers available before unification in 1940? Where were they?
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> I've always been interrested in...transfer points, intradivisonal and otherwise. <<<
This has been covered before on Subtalk, but let's go over it again.
Prior to consolidation in 1940, each company, IRT, BMT, and IND were independent competitors so there were no free transfers except east of Queensboro Plaza where the BMT and IRT shared tracks to Astoria and Flushing. There was no free transfer at Queensboro Plaza which was divided outside of fare control into two separate stations. Originally the plan was to physically divide the stations farther east into IRT and BMT sections, but the two companies agreed to split the fares collected by a formula based on ratio of riders continuing to Manhattan from QBP from each of the lines.
On June 12, 1940, at 12:01 A.M. Municipal; operation of the IRT began and the 9th Avenue El was shut down below the Polo Grounds. Free transfers at 155th St, Manhattan, and 161st St. in the Bronx, were made available to the IND Concourse line when the El closed.
Also in 1940, after unification, the Fulton Street El was cut back to the portion between Rockaway Avenue and Lefferts Avenue. Free transfers were instituted between the IND and the Fulton El at Rockaway Avenue, and between the BMT Brighton Line and the IND at Franklin Avenue.
In 1942 when service on the 2nd Avenue El was ended, a free transfer between the BMT and IRT at Queensboro Plaza was instituted, and a free transfer between the IRT and the southbound 3rd Avenue El at Grand Central/42nd Street was instituted.
On July 1, 1948, the fare was raised from 5¢ to 10¢. Along with the fare increase, most of the present free transfers were instituted between the three divisions. If you are interested in this, you should look up a copy of the New York Times in your local library for that day. There are pictures, stories, and a map of the new free transfer locations.
The cross platform transfer between the IRT and BMT at Queensboro Plaza did not take place until October, 1949 when the BMT North half of the Queensboro Plaza was closed and all operations were moved to the South half.
Tom
And in addition since the 1950s various tunnels have been built or put inside fare control one at a time.
New transfers requiring significant physical work that have occurred in my memory (35 years) are 42nd and 6th, 51st/53rd and Lex, and 6th Ave and 14th, and then (much later) connecting that complex to 7th Ave and 14th.
I've been thinking of composing a complete list of when transfer passageways were opened and how they've changed over time (free transfers, realignments, etc.), perhaps submitting it to Dave for inclusion in the FAQ or elsewhere. I don't have the time right now to work on it, but would others be interested in (a) contributing their knowledge and/or (b) seeing the final product?
seems like a good project.
so here is a snippet, the stairways down from the 14th st 'F.V' platforms to the L line are IRRC 1968 additions. I appreciated them as they gave me another oprion.
Thanks, but as I said, I really don't have time to start working on the compilation yet. If I decide to go ahead with this, I'll post a solicitation for contributions and then this nugget of information (which I did not know) will come in handy.
David, I did take yur point about 'free' time. What I will do is volunteer to 'collect/collate' contributions and pass them on when you indicate you are ready.
So, fellow subtalkers, info regarding transfer points/passages/dates wgen changed from outside to inside fare control etc are welcome.
david@vartanoff.com
All I could contribute would be approximate dates by looking at the maps on this site. Can we assume you'll do that?
yes, although it will wait 'til a "paper" due for a course. I was more hoping that others with 'direct knowledge' would comment. Either way I intend to archive the info here and colloborate w/ David G at his convenience. As a f'rinstance, when I lived in NY 66-70m the connection from 8th & 42nd to T square was outside fare control as was the connection from 6&42 to '5th' on the Flushing.
And of course apporximate dates can be figured out just by looking at the series of maps posted on this site.
To a good degree.
Actually, what I'm hoping to compile is somewhat more ambitious: a station-by-station history, covering among many other points connections with other stations. But transfers are a good place to start.
David -- I'd be very interested in seeing that info. Unfortunately, I have absolutely zero to contribute to the subject (perhaps that's why I'm so interested).
The posts to this particular thread have been a welcome change of pace from todays main issue.
CG
The long underground passageway under 14th Street connecting the Canarsie line and the 7th Avenue line appears to have been built in the late twenties when the lines it connected were built. It's just that it was originally OUTSIDE the fare zone. However, it wasn't until 1967 and the Christie revamping that the transfer from the 6th Avenue line to the Canarsie line was built. Around 1978 was when the free transfer to the 7th Avenue line via the long passageway became available. There's still an underground passageway outside the fare zone under 14th Street between 7th and 8th Avenues.
There are three other relatively recent free transfers that involve passage through what used to be outside the fare zone. One is the connection between the 8th Avenue line and the Times Square complex, which was made free in 1989. The free connection between Pacific Street and the Atlantic Avenue IRT and Brighton stations, around 1978. In fact the free transfer between the two Atlantic stations wasn't instituted until Christie. All the transfer passages within that complex date from when the lines they connect were originally built. Finally, free access to the Canal Street IRT, which is located in the middle of the BMT transfer complex, was finally allowed around 1979 when another fare control was removed from an existing stairway.
I remember when the transfer under Bryant Park between the Flushing and 6th Avenue lines was built. It was 1968-69, and you had to get a transfer ticket and go outside to street level. Moreover, this arrangement only applied on weekdays. The Lex/53rd transfer was delayed for many years by property acquisitions and other legalities.
There's also the much newer transfer in Long Island City between the 53rd Street and Crosstown lines, which opened in the late eighties along with the Citicorp high-rise it runs under. Even newer is the one between the Franklin Shuttle and IRT. And while the Shuttle and Fulton local has had a transfer for many years, it's only since the 2000 revamping that a connection within fare zone was built, eliminating those scam-inviting transfer tickets.
It seems that most interdivisional transfers connecting underground and elevated lines date from the late forties to mid fifties. That would include those at Jackson Heights, Yankee Stadium, Park Slope West and possibly Broadway Junction- although the long escalator/stairway shaft connecting street level and the elevated BMT lines looks like it was built before the IND came through in 1946. The Myrtle/Wyckoff transfer, connecting an underground and elevated BMT line, probably dates back from 1928.
Most of the all-underground interdivisional transfers (Brooklyn Bridge/Chambers, Chambers/Park, Bleecker/Lafayette, Times Square, Columbus Circle, 168th, Boro Hall, Union Square, 14th/8th, Metro/Lorimer, Lex/59th, Herald Square, Delancey/Essex) don't look all that much newer than the stations they connect. So you could probably change trains without going outside, but at the cost of an extra fare.
In the case of 168th, I wonder how they kept IND passengers separate from those headed for the elevators for the IRT, which was built much deeper and earlier.
I agree that the 14th Street passageway appears to date from the opening of the line underneath it. However, that raises the question of why the platform itself wasn't positioned with one end at 6th and the other at 7th, to make transfers easier.
As for 168th, there's a narrow, winding passageway between the IRT elevators and the IND mezzanine. Fare control for the transfer was presumably in the middle; IND and IRT passengers coming from the street had separate entranceways.
"I agree that the 14th Street passageway appears to date from the opening of the line underneath it. However, that raises the question of why the platform itself wasn't positioned with one end at 6th and the other at 7th, to make transfers easier."
Maybe the point was that the 6th Ave El and the 7th Ave IRT competed with the BMT Broadway Line, and so making transfers to them easy wasn't a high priority. More important was the ability to transfer at Union Square.
Also, 6th Ave to 7th Ave is 1050', so you can't really make both Avenues really close by.
Forget transfers. Obviously the demand for access to 7th Avenue was apparent when the passageway was built. So why not build the platform with its east end at 6th and its west end halfway to 7th?
But wait -- I come not only with questions but also with answers. Recall that the line originally terminated at 6th and was later extended to 8th. It wasn't until the extension was built that the passageway came, but by that point the platform at 6th was already in service in its present location.
While we're discussing the Canarsie Line, I wonder why they built it so deep at 6th Ave. The IND wasn't there yet, and it's about 15 steps deeper than it needs to be to pass under the PATH.
Do you know when they built the "Panama Canal"?
Another interesting inter-division transfer which predated 1948 was the transfer between the Myrtle and Lexington Ave. Els and the IND at Jay St. in Brooklyn.
When BMT elevated service over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row ended due to a very destructive fire at Sands St. station in 1942, a new entrance was added to the new terminal -- Bridge St./Myrtle Ave. station at Jay St., and a "walking transfer" using paper transfers was established to the IND Jay St/Borough Hall station. Unlike other paper transfer stations, this one was much more restrictive. Westbound (from BMT to IND), one had to obtain the transfer when paying a fare at Myrtle and Lexington Ave. El stations west of Broadway. Eastbound (IND to BMT), the only way to obtain the transfer was to pay a fare at Broadway-Nassau on the 8th Ave. line and obtain the transfer at that time.
The transfer arrangements were not libralized with the advent of full interdivisional transfers in 1948, and remained in more-or-less the same form until the demise of the Myrtle Ave. El in 1969.
-- Ed Sachs
Does anyone know of any books or websites that have information about the early history of British Railroads (19th century) and how they impacted the industrial revolution? For the books, they need to be easily accessible (in a library that allows you to check out the book!).
Thanks very much in advance!!!!
On the net, try this as a portal site:
http://www.railuk.co.uk/history/
I'd particularly recommend two books on the general subject; your local library probably won't have them, but should be able to get them on interlibrary loan. The most thorough recent work is _The Oxford Companion to British Railway History - From 1603 to the 1990s _, published in 1999 and still in print (including a paperback edition). An excellent older work is Hamilton Ellis' two-volume _British Railway History_, published in 1954 (Vol. 1) and 1959 (Vol. 2), and covering events down to nationalisation in 1947.
Alan Follett
Well Well Well, looks what we've got here
It was sold already?
Check what out?
Once an INVISIBLE Auction.. ALWAYS an INVISIBLE Auction.
(Tho I'm left wondering WHO had the 'blonde moment' here)
I'm looking, I'm looking! ....but I'm not seeing!
Aaand we thought SILENT Auctions were SOMETHIN'....
Just wait till Ubid.com gets a whiff of these things...
they'll be off the PC screen like dust!!!
I mean this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=747714295&category=4152
Sorry guys!
Don't be sorry, pal... your post made our night!!
:)
Something seems fishy to me about that sign. Doesn't seem authentic, then maybe I'm nuts. Clearly it's supposed to be a Fulton St sign, can't think of anywhere else all those lines come together. Gee, can somebody tell us what PART of the station complex that sign came from?
BTW: that guy really needs to change his Location, what is it now, two years since the Junkies had a World Series win? Lessee, '01 was Arizona, right? '02 was the Angels, right?
It's from the mezzanine at the corner of Fulton and William. The stairs to the 2/3 are to the left; the rest of the complex is basically straight ahead (I guess the turnstiles are/were at an angle -- I haven't entered there for a while).
Looks authentic to me.
I agree but I do question the legitimacy of its ownership.
There have been a number of signs disappearing lately during refurbishing projects and not all of it is related to replacement of the signs.
Agreed. And in the meantime, the benches, rollsigns, and straps from Redbirds are being thrown out when they could legitimately be sold or given away.
Chambers Street/WTC too, I'm sure some guys took those signs home to sell them on eBay I'm surprised no one's noticed them yet (If I'm right).
Better NOT tell Derek Cheater it's been 2 years...
IIRC, that sign mighta been from the UNDERPASS section
as it does not dictate a STREET name nor Exit, but rather
the location of train platform areas...
Hey-
I am looking for a roll box from any train with any destinations. I tried to find it on E-Bay but I can't afford the hundreds of dollars they go for. If any one could help me out... That be great!
-Ad
Don't expect to find any except on ebay for quite sometime.
There is a glut of the rollsigns and the signboxes there at the moment and people are just snatching them up at unbelievably high prices. I still can't get over the final price of the IND R1/9 series full sign box - $810.05. To think I could have gotten a similar one up at Branford a long time ago for $45.
For now the best I think you can do is keep watching ebay and hope you can get one for a reasonable price (you have to decide what is reasonable for you).
Good Luck
Where are all the red-bird roll signs going. The MTA (NYC Transit) Web page mentions them under collectables, but no item has ever been listed. They are appearing on ebay with $150-$250 prices (+ $100 shipping from 1 vendor). Railsign guy (company?) had one for $300 at the Hoboken TriRail Festival, and the March of Dimes had 10 in Aug. 2001 at their Nostalgia trip. The Tranit Museum should start selling the remaining ones. How many cars have been scrapped (at 2 per car)?
Okay: I'm letting the cat outta the bag, but this coming year the Transit Museum will start selling Redbird rollsigns for a flat price....so 'the average joe' should be able to acquire one (or two).
Now, I am not sure WHICH TYPE of rollsign will be offered: there is the end route-marker sign (#2, #3 etc.); the end destination sign (white text on black bg); then the more popular window-panel rollsign from the side of the car (three-in-one). Hopefully all three different types will be available for purchase....time will tell.
Sorry about the triple posting.
Where are all the red-bird roll signs going. The MTA (NYC Transit) Web page mentions them under collectables, but no item has ever been listed. They are appearing on ebay with $150-$250 prices (+ $100 shipping from 1 vendor). Railsign guy (company?) had one for $300 at the Hoboken TriRail Festival, and the March of Dimes had 10 in Aug. 2001 at their Nostalgia trip. The Tranit Museum should start selling the remaining ones. How many cars have been scrapped (at 2 per car)?
Where are all the red-bird roll signs going. The MTA (NYC Transit) Web page mentions them under collectables, but no item has ever been listed. They are appearing on ebay with $150-$250 prices (+ $100 shipping from 1 vendor). Railsign guy (company?) had one for $300 at the Hoboken TriRail Festival, and the March of Dimes had 10 in Aug. 2001 at their Nostalgia trip. The Tranit Museum should start selling the remaining ones. How many cars have been scrapped (at 2 per car)?
He has not posted in quite a while.
Human Communication GR568 Satellite has indicated that On The Juice was last seen in Times Square tracking NNE at unknown mph in the last 24 to 48 hours. Just Kidding! I wondered where he's at.
Got an e-mail from him this AM, so he's alive & well.
That's great! Hopefully, he'll drop by for a chip or 2 and have a nice talk over stuff. I miss him as well as Ronnie! Any idea where he is!?
Nope, I sent him (and some other friends) a copy of one of Trevor's photos of the Red Bird trip ... the one coming off the Williamsburg.
He liked it as did I. I missed that trip, but it looks like some of the best part of it was viewed from the outside (the different destination signs & photo ops). Must have had a real railfan at the controls (I may even know 3 of them personally, incl. the Conductor).
He likes his work and probably does not want to be come infected by all of the union-strike el-toro-poopoo that has been infecting the board.
Elias
We've kept our distance the last few weeks, but I'd bet it was more a superior taking him under their wing and saying "now is NO time to be caught on subtalk, ifyaknowhutImeen" ... Peter isn't stupid and probably wants to avoid trouble. You LEARN that in the sausage works, whoever's NEAR a problem CAUSED it. :)
On Da Juice (aka OJ) is probably busy rehabing some Redbirds :)
I have this issue whenever I either post topics or replies. You see, the 'Subject' line is always filled with the same text, every time. I can't seem to get rid of it. I mean, it's a real hassle when I posting a reply, since when it appears in the message index, it says something different. Any suggestions?
You need to turn off "autocomplete forms" and "remember password." It's buried DEEP in "preferences," but you'll find it. Open sores code. :)
Ah yes, I used both Konqueror and Mozilla in Linux Mandrake and that happened to me also. You can see here and here where I forgot to change the subject. I installed Opera since and I don't have that problem.
Eek, another problem.
It seems I receive a dialog box prompting me to choose which name to use for this form, which I assume are the boxes that I use to put up this message. The weirdest thing is that it has my name, 'CPCTC' up 2 times. What the...
Selly: Thank you, but where!? I have 1.1 if that helps.
Rob: Thanks, but doesn't Opera have ads within it? I'm not really tuned into that. I may give it a try, though.
I'm so frustrated. -_-
It's IN there, and YES, your symptoms PROVE it's the EDIT, "preferences," somewhere in there "autocomplete" and "remember password" ... it really IS in there, but ya gotta play hide and seek. It's IN there. Turn it OFF. :)
I did it! Thank you, Selly! :-D
Moo! Sorry I didn't know precisely where it was, them suckers keep CHANGING it for no good reason, but I knew it was in there, somewhere. :)
Wowsers ... looks like there's gonne be a strike, at least according to this article in the Albany TU ... Bloomberg promised to fine and sue strikers (though MTA is a STATE agency, but I guess he's getting tired of being blamed for Paturkey not caring) ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=82635&category=STATE&newsdate=12/13/2002
Meanwhile, the Paturkey administraion falls apart, so the GOV will be a bit too busy to care (and it's HIS problem ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=82653&category=STATE&newsdate=12/13/2002
Wowie, indeed...
Toussaint's not really showing his good side if he's resorting to name calling. He can do better, as with the MTA.
What's SAD is that Paturkey's P.R. Revenge machine has come up to speed (things like this are TYPICAL of our state GOP) but it amazed me to NO end that Roger's stumbled into the "Roto-tiller" and has CLEARLY lost the first round. Sure hope TWU can tap some proper PR or the mission was sunk right here ... reporters aren't known for being able to DIG for the truth, so whatever press release produces the best sound byte WINS ... and therefore Roger has lost in the court of public opinion. Talk Radio is alive with buzz up here over it and it's 99-1 so far that Touissant and TWU should be lined up and shot. If this is what Paturkey plays among his NYC radio talk show hosts, then TWU is in SERIOUS trouble. Playing against a war machine is a SKILL, Quill had it - this one's not looking good at the moment and may just have sunk the TWU ship. Unless Roger gets a clue FAST ...
And sadly, TWU is in the right here, but as I had warned months ago, you don't play with sharks unless you've got some of your own. TIME to PRODUCE said sharks ... :(
Funny you mention that. I lurk around the Strappies board and I see how most of them are holding hope that the TWU will somehow win all of this, despite you and your 'Insider' knowledge. Even Brooklyn67 is there, defending himself! Posters who frequent in Bustalk know who I'm talking about.
I hope TWU wins as well ... they've EARNED it ... and while everybody else got fat in the late 90's, they got screwed in a locked down contract. They're at LEAST entitled to "split the difference." but yeah, for those who doubted that the subways and mass transit was a POLITICAL GAME, here's the ugly REALITY ...
Of course, anyone who took the civil service test and recited the OATH already knew what I've been saying. And now we're in the grand elephant pything match of the politicos against the GOVERNED ... and GUESS who loses? Ain't Paturkey or Bruno, THAT'S for sure ... imagine, we call our "elected" public servants. GUESS who has to get the water and genuflect for WHOM? :(
"I hope TWU wins as well ... they've EARNED it ... and while everybody else got fat in the late 90's, they got screwed in a locked down contract."
I don't know what you mean by a locked down contract. I hope everyone here realizes, however, where the current contract came from. Yeah, Willy James was the TWU president when the contract was signed. Unfortunately, the contract was negotiated by the local 100 executive board - mostly New Direction people. The so called poor contract that got roger elected was the first collaberation of roger's elite negotiating team.
I was coming more from a direction of how the 3 year contracting works - once you come to an agreement, you're stuck with the valuations whether the economy goes up or it goes down. I was particularly surprised at how much had been given away on the disciplinary and safety sides in particular, I don't know what the money issues were. Flagging and just the sheer volume of disciplinaries based on the workforce side was a major "TILT!" in my incredibly feeble mind. Then again, I have more of an idea of the silliness of the whole proposition from several close encounters of the department of civil service kind.
But my term "locked down" was a response to the private sector types who insist that in good times you can just go to your boss and get a raise because everyone else is and in times like these, you shut up and take your porridge. Did YOU ask for a raise during those fat years? Did ya GET one? :)
"I was particularly surprised at how much had been given away on the disciplinary and safety sides in particular,"
As far as the disciplinary side goes, I can speak with some authority. The TWU actually gained some ground in that area after the last contract. While progressive discipline remained in tact, the changes can be summed up in three areas.
First: Discipline was split into two tracks (three in busses). One track was related to time & attendence while the other was related to job performance (in busses, accidents & safety were a third track). While discipline remained progressive, a penalty for a time and attendence infraction will not be afected by previous penalties for job performance - and vice-versa.
Second: While penalties for poor job performance have to be served, minor penalties (up to 10 day 'suspension')for time & attendence violations, are just 'paper penalties' if resolved before tri partite arbitration. Penalties of 20 days or more, must be served.
Third: Progressive discipline is mitigated by time. If a violation in the same track occurs within 12 months of the last, discipline progresses to the next step. If the infraction is between 12 and 18 months, the last penalty is repeated. 18 months and 2 years, the penalty is half of the previous penalty.
These three changes were actually won by the TWU in the last contract. As for safety, I'd like any of the TWU members on this board to state clearly and specificly what the losses in safety were in the last contract. I know of none.
Well, obviously I'm blithely unaware of the "true reality" having been out of the carbarn for a LONG time ... but I do have some friends in operations as well as in your portion of the funnyfarm (though not YOUR shop) and the one thing that everyone seems to have in common is an excessive fear of supervision to some degree or other. Sure there's a need to ensure things are done safely and properly and of course if you let one person slide, that allows others to challenge on a basis of "arbitrary and capricious" ... BUT ...
Some of the things I've heard people being sent downtown for or written up border on the insipid, and morale doesn't seem impressive. Am I *qualified* to judge? Certainly not. I do converse with a number of folks (many who have been with the system for decades) who are afraid to come here and say anything who almost universally agree that discipline is out of control and has been for a while. I've also noted a few here have indicated similar. At the same time, a good number have also said if you do things properly, you have nothing to worry about. One of those just got suspended, another resigned and went elsewhere, glad to be out of the TA. What can I say? But if people can get written up for real for transposing words and STILL giving a reasonably correct announcement, then there's too many docudroids and adminiswigs with too much time on their hands. Let them write up an R142. :)
As to the safety issues, the quantity of employee "road kill" this year hasn't exactly been what I would consider a "high point" for the TA, *especially* with so much supervision on the lookout. No offense intended here, but that's what colored my own opinions that I expressed. I still think the "offer" is a raw deal, but then again it would appear that Roger really blew it this time by dissing a politico. Even probies know you don't do THAT and expect to play the final round of "let's make a deal." DAMNED shame that is. :(
In the vernacular of modern labor relations, Roger Toussaint has "Stepped on his own dick" by telling the mayor of NY City to Shut Up. That was clearly not his finest hour and I suspect showed ole Rog for what he is (A low potential, high achiever) I doubt that the remark will be forgotten or forgiven any time soon. I predict that Ole Rog will pay dearly in the end. Just remember whay happened to Michael Quill for mispronouncing Mayor Lindsay - and Quill was a true leader.
(In the vernacular of modern labor relations, Roger Toussaint has "Stepped on his own dick" by telling the mayor of NY City to Shut Up.)
Unlike the former Mayor, I don't think Bloomberg is the type of guy to take things personally. I don't think it's a big deal.
Well, to be honest with you, what I'm hearing is that when roger made that statement, the assholes of other NY labor leaders, puckered. I don't know the mayor personally but I know he cannot allow that comment to pass and remain credible. Nope, roger and or the TWU will ultimately have a price to pay for it.
Doomberg is not going to do anything...he's afraid of his own shadow for cry'in out loud!
I think you have him confused with David Stinkins. If you watched the news this evening, our mayor sent ole roger a not so subtle hint that the remark will not be soon forgotten.
But what CAN he do? Again, unless Bloomie can pressure Paturkey into doing something about Rog's remark (and that's all it was), he's powerless...remember the saying: 'sticks 'n stones'....
I can ASSURE you Bloomie means about as much to the Paturkey as Roger does ... after all, Bloomie isn't a "real" republican. Not like Trentie. :)
Exactly...
Michael Quill was jailed (pre-Taylor Law) during the 1965 transit strike. All he did to Piss Lindsay off was mis-pronounce his name.
Keep in mind that Bloomberg does not come from old money. He's built his own empire. he, like most who have achieved what he has, can be ruthless when pushed.
As to what Bloomberg can do - well that's pretty much up to him. He can be a gentleman tie a settlement to a public appology. He can also tie a settlement to roger's future as local 100 president. Keep in mind that roger has burnt bridges with the TWU international and is pretty much out on the proverbial limb and that limb is looking pretty thin these days.
As to roger and many of his organizers, Roger won his job as a trackman back. If he's ousted as TWU president - he can always come back to work. I'm sure many in management would be happy to see him. Of course, many of his organizers have been walking around, thinking that they are 500 Lb gorillas. The word is many will be gone right after the contract is settled. Lots of managers can't wait to welcome them back tot he ranks.
I think Bloomberg will sue the union for full compensatory damages to the city for any strike. Bloomberg doesn't want NYC unions thinking they can expect to gain by striking.
However, he would do exactly the same thing even if Roger had been the most gentlemanly person on earth.
NYC union? Ummm ... the MTA is a STATE agency, and it's Paturkey's responsibility. It merely OPERATES in New York City, it's NOT a city function, agency or department. Bloomberg has a representative or two on the board, but it's Paturkey's agency. Where's Paturkey?
"NYC union? Ummm ... the MTA is a STATE agency"
Yes I know that. But Bloomberg will sue the UTW for damages so that the NYC unions realize he means business when labor negotiations come up with them.
He's certainly entitled to sue anyone he wants to, I suppose. But he'd get a WHOLE lot more money by suing Saudi or the Bush administration for negligence than he's going to get out of the TWU. :)
I personally think it's time for the flaming to end and pressure to begin on negotiations with a real result here. I really don't believe TWU members are going to strike. Picket like hell and make noise on their own personal time, you betcha. But I don't see the subways grinding to a halt ... yet ... and TWU *really* needs to refocus the debate on where Paturkey and his negotiators are.
New York City is getting a VALUABLE lesson on the absentee governor we've known for 8 years now. And why those of us UPSTATE sit in absolute AWE that this moron got a THIRD TERM. If you guys end up walking, you'll just be starting to get to know our absentee goobernor and understand why I hold him and his butt buddy Joe Bruno with such contempt. We've had to do without government for 8 years now - YOUR TURN! :)
"New York City is getting a VALUABLE lesson on the absentee governor we've known for 8 years now. And why those of us UPSTATE sit in absolute AWE that this moron got a THIRD TERM. If you guys end up walking, you'll just be starting to get to know our absentee goobernor and understand why I hold him and his butt buddy Joe Bruno with such
contempt. We've had to do without government for 8 years now - YOUR TURN! :)"
Gee, down in the outmarches, Maryland has Two-Term limitations on the governor. Even if our outgoing one, Parris A Glendenning (aka Spendenning", wanted a third term - HE CAN'T. So usually we get a political clone or actually somebody else sitting in the Governor's Mansion.
Once in great while, term limits do some good.
I'm coming to the opinion that ONE term is too long, at least for republicans. Then again, if Shrub hadn't screwed New York WORSE than Al Qaeda, we probably would be talking about nice nifty trains and streetcars here instead. But all we got was this BS tax cut. :(
Well, Dan, since roughly 36% of NYC voted for Pataki, I suppose that upstate and the suburbs actually elected him. So who's in AWE?
There was an analysis of it in the Times Union recently. The WESTERN part of the state voted for Golisano, the urban areas voted for McCall and the suburban areas AROUND the cities voted for Paturkey. I just saw what's coming for those living particularly on Long Island, Westchester and some of the other denser suburban populations for the upcoming FY 2003 budget. The "analysis" of costs to suburban counties is going to be MOST interesting. Nassau in particular is going to have to pay for its schools and expenses primarily on the basis of local school and property taxes. Estimates for Nassau (which is what I had a chance to look at) provides for a 35-45% hike in property taxes and as much as 65% for school taxes based on current projections. Pataki has announced that he has NO plans to run again for a third term based on the expected outrage in his "stronghold" areas.
What he did to us BEFORE the election will be coming soon to a suburb near you. The CITY ain't going to be doing too well either though the money that HAD been allocated to the suburbs for school aid WILL be going to NYC as a result of a court decision. Interesting times ahead to be sure, watch the closing doors.
In Maryland we don't get the option to re-elect a two-term governor to a third term. You get two consecutive terms, then get another political job somwhere else or a real world job. At least we get another body in Annapolis, how the job gets done is another matter.
As I said in my prior post, sometimes term limits do some good.
It will be a WARM welcome ;~>
It WAS an impressive move, but as Larry pointed out I don't think Bloomie is as much of an egotist as the former Herr Mayor. If Rudy was still in there, I could see Roger being hauled off to jail just for having moved his lips. :)
I've been warning folks though that "hardball" for the TWU was being orchestrated out of the Paturkey farm, the extent of it is beginning to become visible. Civil Service isn't as rewarding as it once was, glad to see so many people still "enduring" it. I'm impressed in all sincerity. Made ME nuts ...
>>> Made ME nuts ... <<<
AHH...you've been nuts for years...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
... and working at it EVERY day. :)
OK you've heard all those advertisements, but I would have gone that way in any case. First my grandson took a leap off a porch, so his foot is in a walking cast. This ment I needed to keep the walking to a mim.
AM we took LI Bus to the LIRR station. Had a big breakfest then caught the 10:45 to Penn Station (notice we waited for off-peek).
At Penn we met my MC collector friend, then walked to Macy's & 34th. It was packed so we caught a cross-town bus to Lex., then a R-142 to 53rd. We did the Citibank Center "Station" model RxR exhibit. Was my first time there ... very nice. Wasn't crowded so we stayed a while.
Watched a Michael Jackson impersonator within fare control (he was quite good), then took a "V" to Rockafeller Center. Saw Al Roker in the studio (there's a side walk window), did the tree/skators/angles thing then got the M3 bus to 35th where it came out of service. Used a transfer for the Q32 which dropped us off at Macy's. Santa wasn't half as busy by this time. Late lunched at Pizza Hut across the street, Justin's choice, then just had time for the last off-peek LIRR back home. The day ended as it started with a LI Bus ride.
Yesterday the temp. was milder then it's been, so it was a very pleasent day off ! I'm now all charged up with Christmas Spirit
Cost: Two "Fun Passes", a LIRR off-peek & a kids $1 pass, that was it.
Cost: Two "Fun Passes", a LIRR off-peek & a kids $1 pass, that was it.
Cost: Priceless.
Paul
Right, too many in NYC miss out on all the great stuff to do.
This was one of them, if you have never do it shame on you.
The Radio City show is another ... cost too much to do it every year, but you just have to do it when the kids are the right age. There's just nothing like seeing those elephants walk on stage or that chorus line doing their kicks.
I got a little scared when we got off the "V" because Justin tryed to push me into a Hippo doing "B" duty ;-)
Today Paul Tellier was succeeded as CEO of Canadian National Railway by E. Hunter Harrison. Mr Tellier 's new job is CEO of Bombardier. (Guess this means that rail products wil be a more prominent part of Bombardier's future than snowmobiles, etc.
Heh. Actually, the word is he got brought in to FIX Plattsburgh and refocus Bombardier on railcar construction to NEW YORK of equipment that comes close to what they sell that works EVERYWHERE ELSE. I envision heads doing pirouettes. :)
Very funny, Selly! :P
If anything, I hope he'll take care of all of the nuts & bolts that have to be taken care of in Bombardier's train division.
I guess that's good news. Sometimes a house cleaning is good for what ails you.
Penn & Teller to head Bombardier ? What's this world coming to !
Bill "Newkirk"
Just to set the record straight. Despite my being a Republican and Bob a Democrat, despite my being a Sea Beach man and he a Brighton lad and despite the fact that he is a Yankee fan and I a Mets fan, I have to clear the air with those who have e-mailed me to wonder if there is anything between us. NO! Bob and I are the best of friends and the rest of you should be so lucky to have a pal like I do in Bob. Remember when we insult each other it is all in fun and let me tell you something Bob can give as well as he can get----better in fact. The only problem is that he is deluding himself into thinking his train is better than mine, and we all know that is bunk. To those who have e-mailed me, I hope this clears things up. Bob is one of my best friends, and I love him like a brother.
Bob's a JUNKEES fan? Oh SHIRT ... I just registered Republican again. If I ever decide to SCAB, if I catch him on my Brighton Express, I PROMISE you the boy gets 12-9'd right then and there. :)
But the Seabits STILL is a train to nowhere. Heh.
Now I may hate Republicans and crooked Democrats, but I NEVER wish anyone be a victim of a 12-9 incident. Fred just ride my Brighton Express and enjoy the ride and the ease of traveling to and from Manhattan.
I'd NEVER toss mama from the train, but well ... Unca Fred says he's a republican (though I cannot FATHOM how anyone with the teachers union would still be allowed to be a republican since they're worse "scum" than "trial lawyers" but I digress) ... only people I ever threw off my train were hosers and adminiswigs, but ain't nobody got da proff to nail me for it ... heh.
I'll leave the rest alone ... for Kripes ... :)
Now, now. Let's make nice. I'm sure the good people around 86th Street don't consider themselves "nowhere". Just as the Red Line subway in Los Angeles does not go "nowhere", but I don't wish to start that discussion again.
The problem with Sea Beach compared to Brighton is that Sea Beach is underutilized. Three or four stations should be changed into express stations on Sea Beach and the Express tracks should be hooked up to signals, fixed and and used to transport riders quickly through Bensonhurst on their way to Coney Island (not 86th Street).
The Brighton Line is fully utilized (though the express should go to CI and Local end at Brighton) but Sea Beach is not nearly fully utilized. I know why it can not be that way.
If the express were used on Sea Beach, more people may use it and more units would be built to accomodate a larger demand to live near a fully utilized Sea Beach Line. Then the local could end at 86 and the express could go all the way to CI.
"If the express were used on Sea Beach, more people may use it and more units would be built to accomodate a larger demand to live near a fully utilized Sea Beach Line."
There are far more fundamental reasons why Sea Beach has lower traffic than Brighton.
- Sea Beach is flanked closely on both sides by other lines (West End and Culver). So the number of people for whom Sea Beach is their closest line is relatively small. Brighton only has a line on one side (Culver). And Culver is closer to Sea Beach than to Brighton.
- Bus lines (16 of them, according to the MTA's Brooklyn bus map!) from the great unserved SE Brooklyn reach the Brighton Line first. No one is going to ride the bus for another 10 minutes to get to the Sea Beach just because it has an express.
- All of Brooklyn is pretty built up. You aren't going to get significant numbers of massive new apartment complexes anywhere.
My thought was of the two pictures that I saw along the Flushing Line. One in 1923 and one in 1933. The area along the line went from rural to urban (as it is now) in just ten years. There was no rent control then and that could slow down the process, but if the demand is high to live near a faster Sea Beach line, then eventually the market will build more units. Market forces even work in New York City, though not as efficiently as in other places. And even in housing in Brooklyn it works.
The Brighton Line is fully utilized (though the express should go to CI and Local end at Brighton)
Okay, making the Express go to CI and the Local only to Brighton would mean an extra cross-merge, but seeing as they have capacity to merge everything in to one platform at BB to terminate, there would be enough capacity to simply cross the trains over - I don't get why it's not done, as it's a pretty good idea.
Maybe I am missing something. To send a local into a middle platform and then out onto the inbound local track would have a train cross two tracks in one direction or the other. I think it would cause a lot of back ups and possibly some confusion to cross two operating tracks at one time. And of course the tracks crossed run in opposite directions.
IIRC trains at BB relay beyond the station.
At present the tracks north of the station are:
Southbound Local, Southbound Express, Northbound Express, Northbound Local
Everything merges onto the Southbound Express to relay at BB. If you look at the track maps, relays cannot take place from the Southbound Local platform.
This limits the number of trains which can arrive and when they can arrive, various Subtalk whinges etc...
The MTA manages to do this.
Therefore it would make no difference if the Southbound Express were switched to Southbound Local North of the station - it would just be a different type of merge in the same direction - then continued to CI (if it were open), then return to the Northbound Local platform at BB, switch to Northbound Express North of the station etc.
If the current everything terminates and relays at BB works, then there is no reason crossing trains North of BB wouldn't.
IIRC trains at BB relay beyond the station.
At present the tracks north of the station are:
Southbound Local, Southbound Express, Northbound Express, Northbound Local
Everything merges onto the Southbound Express to relay at BB. If you look at the track maps, relays cannot take place from the Southbound Local platform.
This limits the number of trains which can arrive and when they can arrive, various Subtalk whinges etc...
The MTA manages to do this.
Therefore it would make no difference if the Southbound Express were switched to Southbound Local North of the station - it would just be a different type of merge in the same direction - then continued to CI (if it were open), then return to the Northbound Local platform at BB, switch to Northbound Express North of the station etc.
If the current everything terminates and relays at BB works, then there is no reason crossing trains North of BB wouldn't.
The express would be fine. I have a question about the local crossing to one express track or the other and then heading back to Manhattan. It would have to cross two tracks in different directions.
From memory, there is a tower over the station and switches on the inbound side of BB. I think that there is also a switch between BB and Ocean Pkwy. where there are six tracks and trains used to be laid up all of the time. The express would do fine to continue past BB on the express track then enter OP on the express track, then merge (if it can) to the local afte OP. The local terminating at BB would interfere with trains to and from CI. Inbound express trains could stop on the local track at BB then switch to Express but there are usually two trains at a time at BB ready to go to inbound (now expresses).
Only one local could be accomodated and it would have to terminate on the outbound express track then cross the two inbound tracks to return to Manhattan on the local track. It does not seem feasible to me.
Simple solution: there are "x" crossovers North of BB (towards Sheepshead Bay). If the express were switched to the local tracks (and the local continue switching as present onto the express tracks at that same place) on these, the local could relay on the express tracks South of BB.
Very well, then why haven't they done that ever, after about 75 years of operation. I am not assuming that they are rational, maybe they are not.
Is it just a "Brighton Line Tradition" that the express must terminate in Brighton and the local will go on to Coney Island?
Why have they never tried the logical way? They do it in Queens where the R local ends and E/F express go further on to Jamaica.
Closer to home, on West End the local did end at Bay Parkway and the express went through to CI, but they only have three tracks on West End.
What do you think? Are they just sticking to an illogical tradition?
I personally think they're just being lazy.
In 1968, terminating the locals at Brighton Beach and extending the express to Coney Island was tried, but there were too many delays caused by the switching. So the current lineup was established.
The turnaround at 71st / Continental Avenue doesn't interfere with Queens Blvd express service. That's the big difference.
--Mark
Oh yeh, and at least the express should go over the bridge instead of in that "rat infested tunnel."
When he emerged from the meeting, a Post photographer spotted Toussaint getting in the passenger seat of the $40,000 SUV, while another man assumed the driving duties.
UH-OH!!!!! HE'S EVIL!!!!!! THIS SETTLES IT!!!! THE TWU IS ONLY GOING TO STRIKE BECAUSE THEY'RE EVIL AND THEY WANT TO HURT NEW YORKERS!!!!!!
Really, how was this relevant?
Relevent in the sense that most of this board constantly gets on people who drive SUV's as the devil and greedy.
Just to let all the transit workers know that thier hard earned union dues went to buy Toussaint a $40,000 gas gugling GMC Yukon.
Relevent in the sense that most of this board constantly gets on people who drive SUV's as the devil and greedy.
Essentially, it's totally irrelevant in the strike negotiations, but since you know that fact, you put it up here so that people could continue their argument that the TWU is selfish to ask for a raise.
That in itself is pretty childish.
Maybe if Tousaint reguarly rode mass transit he would be better equipted to know what needs to be done to make his workers working conditions better.
Plus it is funny because 80% of people on this board talk of greedy SUV ownere and theier leader earns $85,000 a year and recieved a free $40,000 SUV. Thats really relateding to the average working joe
Maybe if Tousaint reguarly rode mass transit he would be better equipted to know what needs to be done to make his workers working conditions better.
That's totally wrong. Exhibit A: Railfans
Plus it is funny because 80% of people on this board talk of greedy SUV ownere and theier leader earns $85,000 a year and recieved a free $40,000 SUV.
People on this board are part of the TWU?!?!?!?!?
Thats really relateding to the average working joe
Bush rides around in not one but TWO customized 747's. And he has another couple for emergencies. Since he doesn't relate to the average joe, oust him and put in Al Sharpton as president. Afterall, he relates better to the average joe, right.
It's STILL childish.
The president does not relate to the average Joe. I would not argue with that at all.
It is a lease, when he leaves office the car does not stay with him.
The Union has actually cut back on the number and cost of vehicles. He used that car to get to the scece when Baby dies last month.
The TA has a boat and motorcycles, so what does that say about them?
That "other man" is a union assigned driver. WCBS Newswadio 880 said it was a perk of the job (being the TWU local 100 leader).
--Mark
Comment from the folks in the outmarches:
The membership of TWU 100 are fools for allowing Toussaint to have a SUV and driver paid for by the union. If he "deserves" a union provided vehicle as a perk, it should be a Honda or Toyota sedan.
This seems to be another reason why the TA's unionized employees sould be looking at another transport union to represent them. 100 wastes the dues that are being paid to it. Maybe somebody ought to be looking at possible criminal charges against the Local 100 leadership.
Then again, this is New York City ... an SUV is an economy vehicle compared to the more majestic (and properly fitting) A-1 ABRAMS TANK which would be more appropriate. We'd all be humbled that the leader of the union turned down the "depleted uranium power package" as well as a gesture of humility and sympathy for the whales. But without the gun turret option, we'd also be emasculated. After all ...
WE no screw around, DIS IS NOO YAWK. :)
I guess we in the outmarches just don't realize that "WE no screw around, DIS IS NOO YAWK. :)" makes it different.
Here in the outmarches the pres of ATU Division 1300 doesn't even get a car and driver, he get to drive his POV. The office is a converted row house (first floor only is the local's office) on West 25th Street in Charles Village. Not exactly a high rent district.
Hereabouts being the president of a transit union doesn't get you either on the 6 O'Clock news or in the local "newspaper".
BTW, since this general topic on SubTalk comes up every year or so, everybody should copy their posts to their word processor and save them, as it's the same thing, different time thing. Sames wear and tear on the brain. Don't have to think anything new, just recycle. Nothing ever changes. Check the Archives for the last strike threat. It never changes.
BTW, since this general topic on SubTalk comes up every year or so, everybody should copy their posts to their word processor and save them, as it's the same thing, different time thing. Sames wear and tear on the brain. Don't have to think anything new, just recycle. Nothing ever changes. Check the Archives for the last strike threat. It never changes.
Dunno, both sides seem pretty unyielding this year. While I still think there'll be an eleventh-hour settlement, the chances of at least a brief strike appear fairly high this year.
"BTW, since this general topic on SubTalk comes up every year or so, everybody should copy their posts to their word processor and save them, as it's the same thing, different time thing. Sames wear and tear on the brain. Don't have to think anything new, just recycle. Nothing ever changes. Check the Archives for the last strike threat. It never changes."
Of course you're right, but I think we all post the same basic opinions over and over in search of that one line response that has heretofore never actually been posted in any internet chat / message board / forum:
"I see. You are correct. I have changed my opinion"
CG
If he "deserves" a union provided vehicle as a perk, it should be a Honda or Toyota sedan.
Wake up, Dan. Only an American-made vehicle from an American company is eligible.
'Scuse me, last time I looked, Honda and Toyota have plants in the USofA, and Ford gets something like 55% of it's parts from "foreign" sources. No such thing as a totally US vehicle anymore.
So, how many CEO's enjoy the same priveledge?
If Bloomberg gets a flat tire on his 10-speed, or throws his knee out, he's got a city-funded SUV waiting as well.
It's in the Daily News.
So?
It's funny. Roger Toussaint chose to take a 1/3 pay cut (as well as the union officers) when he took office, but the New York Post chooses to be nitpicky about him in an SUV. Roger makes $85,000 a year, his predecessor Willie James made around $130,000 a year. Would all of you rather he put the SUV back and that he go back making what Willie used to make? Please.
It's funny. Roger Toussaint chose to take a 1/3 pay cut (as well as the union officers) when he took office, but the New York Post chooses to be nitpicky about him in an SUV. Roger makes $85,000 a year,"
Of course that does not include the expenses charged on his TWU credit card, does it? Did that 1st Class trip to Ireland that Roger just took (to capture the spirit of Michael Quill) come out of Roger's pocket or yours (the TWU Members)? When Roger mortgaged the union hall, where did that money go? I don't have the answers but you guys should be asking those questions.
Both of you guys have no idea of what is going on.
Rogers salary is lower than James but not by much. James' total package with benes was much bigger. Roger has more credit card expenses than James did BUT the James gang had many suspect accounting methods. Even the old car leases were suspect with the Union eating the entire cost of the car and interest plus some over the course of the a 3 year lease.
As for the line of credit, the organizing/education dept, family program, strike benefits, Family Day and some other things ate that up fast.
One SUV is a hell of alot better than 8 Willie James leased Buick Park Avenues, which the union has since gotten rid of, and $85,000 is a paycut from the old regime. The Food Emporium has a 20 year lease with a 20 year option well below market rate, little over 22 a square foot I recall. They moved out and are subleasing the property. Whatever Roger did with the mortgage, he was not 100% at fault with it, thats for sure. I asked those questions. Roger ain't no Mike Quill. Thank god he ain't no Willie either.
Well, it's your union. If you guys don't mind getting hamburger while paying Filet Mignon prices, than far be it from me to say otherwise.
unions drain its members dry.
add all the dues you pay and what do you really get in return?
It would seem that it's ok for TA management to have a company car. But the head of TWU Union can't.
BTW How has Bleepburg been getting to work the last few days? By chance has been been taking practice rides around the block on his new Bike? Does he remember how to ride a bike?
If the members of TWU 100 wish Roger to be chauffered around, that is THEIR priviledge. However, IMHO it is rank stupidity on his part, because of the obvious bad PR. Feeding your enemies ammunition is not considered good military procedure.
Of all the big shots at the hotel tonight talking about the contract, How many of them have company cars? How many of them are taking Mass Transit to and from the meetings? How many of them besides Bleepburg have a Bike?
MY POINT EXACYLY. Roger should have the image of the rider not management if he wants rider sympathy.
So why doesn't the members of TA management ride the subways? A picture of them riding the rails would invoke rider sympathy. Company men riding the trains instead of company cars.
The problem is, there is no rider sympathy. To the union and management, we're lower than garbage at the bottom of the East River.
If the guy from the Post took a picture of TA management getting into their cars, maybe this thread would be about them instead of Toussaint.
I think we agree here. SF voters some years back passed a non-binding referendum asking city pols to use transit a minimum of one day a week.
The last time a TA official rode the subway on a regular basis was (at least)David Gunn.
It's typical for a piece of human trash like him. Hopefully, it crashes.
I'm leaving for Brazil tomorrow for warm weather and hot women. I was offered to take a tour of the Sao Paulo Subway from somone who is a Civil Engineer for the subway company and is friend of my family. The three choices I have for a tour is an Operations tour, Maintenance tour or a New Line Construction tour. Being a Civil Engineering major, I'm thinking about doing the construction tour, but I was wondering how interesting the others would be. From you all who have done similar "behind the scenes" tours with the NYCT, what did you consider the most interesting ones? In any case, I plan on taking plenty of photos and sharing with here when I get back in January.
rank, new construction 1, ops 2,, maint 3.
This assumes relatively similar degrees of thoroughness access to non public areas etc.
Well for the last few days the cities Newspapers have been ripping TWU and its members a new asshole,It has become clear the public thinks that working in T A is not a "Real Job"That we are mostly lazy guys who sit around all day doing nothing.Well got to be honest its not.Ridership is UP ,The have 30 mil surplus but because Of Govenor Paturkeys appointees mis managment we get shafted.Thats plain and simple.It happens with all civil service jobs and it will happen everytime a contract is up.Thats just life in NYC.We run the city, yes its illegal to strike but what else do we have to threaten to get a raise.So MTA says there is no money take a paycut and we are supposed to say Ok back to work 5 trips on the 7 is waiting for me.
Get real. If we didnt make big stink now in 3 years they would be like well now we have even less money and you take another cut.Where would it stop.Then there are people out there who think our jobs are outdated and can be replaced with cameras and new equippment.HA you obvoulsy never had the pleasure of Rush hour and suicidal babie carriages and umbrellas ,Drags.OR if there was just one operator what happens if he is assaulted or has heart attack?.Or can video cameras and CBTC stop muggings and attacks?With the depression that we are in Violence is going to shoot up in the city and it will be even more beneficial having a 2 person crew.
Ny Post's editorial page is just plain slander,IF it were up to the post everyone would be fired and replace us with monkeys.
Sorry people to inform you most T/A workers are educated we are not all 5 th grade dropouts,I have a degree ,But guess what I make more here than in the open market ,In my school car class we had 2 lawyers and someone who went to colombia.They were extremely satisfied with our compensation rates. And all of check out this site COPVCIA.COM
THE REVOLUTION IS COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People keep saying there's a surplus. There is no surplus. There never was a surplus.
If NYCT anticipates a deficit for a given year of, say, $200 million, and at the end of that year finds the actual deficit was $150 million, that doesn't mean there's a $50 million surplus. This sort of thing has been happening for the past few years, and the Straphangers' Campaign and other groups have been trying to get the public riled up by exclaiming the lower-than-expected deficit to be a surplus. Saying it doesn't make it so.
David
Wasn't there a surplus a couple of years ago? I distinctly remember reading about one in the News.
Let's get back to this in 1-2 years after the contract talks are past history. I'll bet a 7 day acrd that TA will announce they have a surplus.
Surpluses, like deficits, merely exist on paper. Creative accounting can create surpluses or expose deficits without a single dollar figure changing.
[Wasn't there a surplus a couple of years ago? I distinctly remember reading about one in the News.]
Go back to what David said. It was NOT a surplus; it was merely a smaller-than-expected deficit.
- - - - -
To repeat an example I cited in another thread... Let's say you originally expected to owe $10, but you end up owing only $6.
1. Is the $4 difference a surplus? NO!! You just owe less.
2. Should you be happy that you owe less, or should you go out and spend $4 (that you don't really have) JUST to meet you original budgeted loss? Straphangers would vote for the latter.
Most INDIVIDUALS understand this distinction. Unfortunately, masses of PEOPLE do not, nor do Straphangers or the media.
if you budgeted $10 to cover a predicted deficit which turned out to be six, either you have the four dollars in your rainy day slush fund, or the 'virtual' money not spent "reduces" the carry forward debt for your next budget cycle. So IMHO it is not entirely vaporware.
(if you budgeted $10 to cover a predicted deficit which turned out to be six, either you have the four dollars in your rainy day slush
fund, or the 'virtual' money not spent "reduces" the carry forward debt for your next budget cycle. So IMHO it is not entirely
vaporware.)
Oh yes it is. Several years ago, the City ran a $2 billion surplus. The next year they broke even, but claimed a $2 billion surplus because they included the money from they year before. This went on for several years. They gave the impression, after a bunch of $2 billion surpluses, that hey had paid off $10 billion in debt, or had $10 billion in the bank. In Giuliani's last year, they had a $2 billion deficit, but including the old $2 billion they said they broke even. Now we face a fiscal crisis with NOTHING left from the boom.
The state did the same thing.
Don't blame the press. Everyone who has cared to look knows this, and knew it years ago.
Amen ... and the drunken sailors are STILL pything away the money as though there were no shortfall to BEGIN with. But they're promising restraint NEXT year maybe ... but not now. Except for TWU which of course CAUSED all these deficits, not anybody else. :\
"But guess what I make more here than in the open market ,In my school car class we had 2 lawyers and someone who went to colombia.They were extremely satisfied with our compensation rates."
The public gets that.
You have a degree? Based on the way you write, quite frankly, you could have fooled me. I guess sentence structure and punctuation was not one of your strong points.
I don't see where you get the idea that people don't think Transit is a real job. The problem is that riders have a hard time accepting that the people who are operating the trains and buses want to make more money than they do.
You guys are balking at paying a share of the health benefits costs?
Well wake up and come into the real world. In most private companies employees have to pay upwards to 50% of the costs. All the MTA wants is you to cover about 22%. Consider yourself lucky. Healthcare costs are skyrocketing so that no company - public or private - can shoulder that burden alone.
Face it - Roger T. is a socialist revoluntionary - he had to leave his home country of Trindad otherwise he would have wound up in jail or worse. He caused problems when he got here and in the beginning even the TWU brass didn't like him. He is going to lead the TWU local to extinction.
That's all I am going to kvetch about.
I hope you can afford the loss of 2 days pay per day of striking. In 1980 the 11 days ruined a lot of bank accounts. There was no amnesty then and there will be none this time around.
I really think that all of you Train Operators, Conductors, Bus Drivers, etc. are doing a great job. Anybody with any brains at all should realize that , yes , you don't have to have a college degree to do the job, but you have to have a lot of wisdom and common sense to make the right decisions on the road, and that puts you all up there with the best of them.
The sad point is that you will have pay partly for your benefits. Most people have been doing that for years, and it's getting worse.
The trick is to pick the plan (if it's offered) that is the most advantageous to you with the minimum of cost.
Sorry to get on the soapbox.
Chuck Greene
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was a Motorman in 1980 and I remember quite clearly that the loss of 22 days pay was something that we never recovered from. The Authority is one of the few places on earth that you can't get fired from unless you're a general screw up. Just because you don't get exactly what your looking for as far as pay and health benefits are concerned is no reason to strike. Especially when you may have to settle for what was on the table prior to any strike. It happened in 1980 and it can happen again.
My union has seen to it that the retirees have virtually no health or prescription benefits at all. Maybe the active employees should be a little more interested in the retirees benefits because one day they'll be in my shoes and it's no picnic.
Bob
(Maybe the active employees should be a little more interested in the retirees benefits because one day they'll be in my shoes and it's no picnic.)
In NY public service the current retirees are in "Tier 1." Those now hired are in "Tier 4," but with the 1995 changes they are actually in a de facto Tier 5. Add on the 1982 changes in social security, and those to come, and those in your shoes ARE at a pincic compared with what we've got coming. No wonder guys like Toussant are going wacko.
Say one thing for the police and firefighters -- they are all in the same tier. No wonder they think of the older guys as their "brothers."
After I retired I tried in earnest to get the active supervisors to force the Union to make better provisions for their retirees. Actually, to revert the union's cost cutting at the expense of the retirees. It went on deaf ears and that's why things are the way they are today. From what I gathered my fellow supervisors were willing to let their wives work flipping hamburgers at McDonalds's to get better benefits than to lock horns with the SSSA. And the only reason why the Fire and Police Department are in better shape is because their union leadership has the balls to confront the city with real and meaningful demands. And if my life is considered a picnic, as you so aptly put it, then you and your union brothers haven't made the TWU or the SSSA look realistically at the plight of the transit worker of today. The unions are suppose to help the retiree not slit his throat.
That's my take on the subject.
Bob
(And if my life is considered a picnic, as you so aptly put it, then you and your union brothers haven't made the TWU or the SSSA
look realistically at the plight of the transit worker of today.)
I disagree. The decision was made in the late 1970s and early 1980s by unions all over the country. They had gotten more for themselves than their employers could afford, and it was clear that it couldn't go on. So the question was how to apportion the pain. In NYC, after first letting the city fall apart and raising taxes through the roof, the decision was made to lay off thousands of low seniority employees (who had paid dues) and preserve everything for current employees by having a lower standard of living for future employees (who would also be forced to pay dues). Having done it once, they did it twice more.
Hence the decline of unions. What does anyone who entered the workforce have to say to a union other than "oh yeah, well screw you too?" If you aren't in a union, you see them as grabbing for themselves at your expense (ie. the strike). If you are in a union, you see that your predecessors took all the money off the table and left you with less.
No different than social security and the national (and state and local) debt. I can understand it happening once (oops, we made mistake, but we really can't adjust to a little less, so you'll have to adjust to a lot less). But over and over.
So, with the winners out of office I don't blame the "New Directions" crowd for being pissed. But they won't be striking against the winners. They'll be strking against the other losers.
But guess what I make more here than in the open market
Er, that's not a convincing argument for paying you more in a lousy economy, when the rank and file in the "real world" (i.e., working for private companies) have been enduring pay freezes/cuts and lay offs for the last couple of years.
This entire indecipherable rant only proves that transit workers don't get it: we won't tolerate a strike, no matter how much you cry poverty, or how much you complain about it being unfair. We need an operating transit system. That need outweighs any petty disputes TWU members have with the MTA.
Didn't you learn anything from the '80 strike debacle?
I agree with you, Chris. My sentiments exactly.
I tried to read your post but got dizzy from the lack of punctuation and poor sentence structure. I will try to give you my opinion for what its worth, though. As someone who rides the trains 4-5 days per week, I'll tell you why the public is anti-TWU. There are three primary reasons:
1) You strike and it FU@Ks up their lives. People can't get to work. People can't go out socially. Ever people who normally drive have their life fu@ked with. Kids can't even get to school. Now parent need daycare so they can try to get out and earn 1/3 of what you do. Don't be suprised that people are not sympathetic.
2) Most people who ride the subways don't earn $50, $60, or $70,000 per year. Most people who ride the subways don't get 100% paid medical coverage, 20-25 vacation days per year, 12 sick days per year and 12 paid holidays per year. Don't expect them to feel sorry for you.
3) Many of you who are in the public eye do not act in a professional manner. At terminals, guys are always smoking on the platform, shouting to each other from one platform to another, or sometimes simply horsing around. Work crews stop road trains constantly, especially at night. They come on with dirty tools and dirty cloths and toss their filthy gear on the car floor or even seats. They make alot of noise, delay the train, take up seats and, oh yes, they do it while wearing TA vests.
For the record, I'm not anti-TWU but some of 'your ' behavior annoys and embarrasses me.
Work crews stop road trains constantly, especially at night.
Ok, while working platform, I got a lot of this. And I always had to ask: In a 24/7 system, when do you want them to do work?
Second, work gangs holding up trains are not the fault of most Transit Employees.
And just recently a customer was cursing out a T/O here at Howard Beach, because he was coming in slow because of a TA ISSUED SLOW SPEED ORDER. This is the fault of the T/O?
And as far as horsing around and smoking, I used to work in a bank and saw it in many other "professional" settings. We would always be horsing around (throwing packs of 100's in the air... I wish :-) ). It goes on everywhere, and I'm sorry if it doesn't where you are. You need some fun to relive stress. Smoking though is bad, I'll agree. Don't do it kiddies.
Very well put, Steve. Especially the comments about the *night riders*.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well said, my man!
1) Sometimes the public likes to mess with the agent in the booth.
>Sometimes during rush hour there are people on a long line who throw in the window a handful of change and tells the agent to hurry. The correct money is there. Sometimes the amount isn't.
>There are also some who insist they gave the agent a $20 when the clerk is holding up a $10 that they received.
>Sometimes the agent has to deal with an injured customer and the other people on line simply just care.
>There are also some customers who ask an agent for directions then complain when they are told directions that differ from what they know.
2) As a station agent I make about $45,000 a year. I can make more if I want to work overtime. However after working 40 hours a week, I really don't want to handle too much more stress. Getting up at 4am to be ready for the hordes going to work. Or getting home after midnight after making out reports about customer complaints. Most common is the person who leaves their change at the window and the person behind them takes it. Between that and the constant fear of someone robbing the booth, I'm glad I have 12 sick days and 20-25 vacation days a year. Holidays? Unless they happen to be on my day off, I have to work them. I don't want to be felt sorry by the public. I just want to get people on their way. When something happens on the subway and I have to give alternate directions, at least give me a moment to find out what has happened. Then I can give proper directions. Sometimes in the booth we don't know what is going on. We're too busy working to have a radio on. We are supposed to get announcements from Jay Street of disruptons in service. As a rule they don't tell us what is going on until it is already common knowledge.
3) Sometimes employees don't act "professional" (Would someone define professional?) Yet they are not that different from office workers all around the city. Go to any office building and you'll see people smoking outside the front door. There are people wo spend their time at the water cooler. Thereare some who spend a few minutes talking to their co-workers in the next cubical. Not always about business. Work trains sometimes cause service to be rerouted. Not because someone "feels" like it. But because if the service isn't rerouted, the work simply will not get done. Think of the janitor who mops the office floor every night. He has several hours to do his job correctly. Work a little more on stains that can't be cleaned up quickly. If he tried to do it during the day, he wouldn't be able to do it with all the people going back and forth. People would also complain that the janitor is getting in their way. Work crews sometimes have to go from here to there on the subway. True their clothes and tools are dirty. After all a subway tunnel isn't the cleanest place in the world. Sometimes when they have to work somewhere, it isn't always at a station. Sometimes they have to fix a condition in the middle of a river tunnel or between stations. Trains sometimes have to drop off or pick them up there. It's an inconvience. But not as bad as one where a train that can not get from here to there because of a condition that wasn't taken of earlier.
Sometimes transit workers do not act very "professional". They act like people who work other jobs.
A couple of thoughts...
Sometimes the public likes to mess with the agent in the booth.
Unfortunately, this is true. Most of this is associated with the handling of money; eliminating the token and switching 100% to Metrocards, sold only by MVMs or alternative sales outlets, will solve most of this problem. Follow the example of Washington, D.C., where the booth personnel answer the public's questions and monitor the ticket machines and turnstiles from inside the booth, and convert lower-usage entrances to HEETs with remotely-monitored full-service MVMs, debit/credit-only MVMs, or no MVM at all, depending on entrance usage. This can be phased in over a couple of years - it will take that long anyway to install the HEETs - so normal attrition should cover part of the workforce reduction. Other station agents can be trained to serve as platform conductors, freeing up those in the C/R title who are currently doing that job to actually be conductors on the trains (again, normal attrition in the C/R ranks would handle this shift in duties).
As a station agent I make about $45,000 a year. I can make more if I want to work overtime. However after working 40 hours a week, I really don't want to handle too much more stress.
I'd love to have that option. My salary is higher, but my benefits aren't as good as yours, and I work about 50 hours a week, not including those times when the phone rings at 0300 because something's gone wrong in the network and I have to scramble a couple of programmers to figure out what went wrong and fix it. (I've been on five hours of callouts and conference calls this weekend, and the weekend isn't over yet. Thanks to modern technology, I can be reached any time, any where, and since I prefer to remain employed I can't turn the &@*% thing off except when I'm in shul.)
I'm glad I have 12 sick days and 20-25 vacation days a year. Holidays? Unless they happen to be on my day off, I have to work them.
Wish I had that much time off. I've got 15 days of vacation (I'll be eligible to retire before I get 20), being sick just means working from home instead of in the office, and I do get seven holidays. However, I have to take a vacation day for my own religious holidays... if I were Orthodox I might have to take unpaid days like one very observant fellow on my staff used to do (my boss recognizes how much more work he's doing than some of the others so I've been able to quietly arrange comp time for him). And only working 40 hours a week? If I tried that I'd be unemployed in a hurry. Sorry to sound sexist, but only the younger women in my company (those with small children) can get away with that.
Sometimes employees don't act "professional"... Yet they are not that different from office workers all around the city.
Or elsewhere, for that matter. I know a fair number of working transit employees, and of those I know most are what I consider to be professionals - they do the job as best as they can under the conditions that prevail, and they care about the job and the people they work with (co-workers and customers). Then again, almost everyone that I know I've met through this board. But I've also seen a lot of transit employees who aren't particularly professional - and, unfortunately, most of the bad apples I've encountered are station agents. Either you're cut out for a customer service job or you're not, and a lot of SAs don't seem to be. On the other hand, all of the employees that I've encountered who were either heading to a work site on the tracks or returning from one appeared to fit the definition of professional as I articulated it above. They may not have been the cleanest (certainly none had just bathed in rose water) but that's to be expected in their job, and they observed the basic rules of courtesy so that other passengers wouldn't end up dirty as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the employees of the Transit Authority worked for peanuts the riding public wouldn't be any more sympathetic than they are today. It's not too often that you get to say the hooray for me and the hell with you! So as far as I'm concerned, if the riding public doesn't like their plight let them do something about it instead of begrudging the TA employees. Sour grapes.
Bob
"So as far as I'm concerned, if the riding public doesn't like their plight let them do something about it instead of begrudging the TA employees."
Rightly or wrongly, what they'll do is shrug when they hear about the 2-day for one fines and any money that NYC wins from the union in its lawsuit for samages.
If we transit workers worked for "peanuts" the public would be trying to get out "peanuts". It isn't about the money. It is the respect. The public knows that if they make a loud enough stink they will have our supervisors giving them what they want.
I had a supervisor one day who was with me when a customer gave me a $10 bill for tokens then turns around and says they gave me a $20 bill. The supervisor tells me to give the change due from a $20 bill. Something about keeping the line moving. I refused. I told the supervisor that this person gave me a $10 bill. I still have the bill in front of me. There are no other bills on the board that the customer can say was theirs. By me bowing to you and giving change from $20 I am telling this person that anytime they want to make a quick $10, all they have to to complain. A supervisor will make the agent pay up. Be the customer right or as I said the customer was wrong.
You missed the most important point of the explanation ... WHO would cough up that ten dollar "short" ... did the Supervisor whip out the $10 to make your drawer WHOLE, or were they going to stick YOU with coming up with the now missing $10 out of YOUR wallet? Gotta explain to folks what happens when your bag turns up $10 short for a situation like this ... they don't get it ... you're just overpaid despite your "contributions" in order to stay out of jail if things don't prove out. They don't GET it yet ...
Supervisior expected ME to come up with the $10. Either I come up with the money or the supervisor would have to conduct a booth audit or/and write me up for slowing up the line.
I will not give out $10 to anyone and everyone who claims I shortchanged them. If I had shortchanged a customer, then I should be held responsible for it. No problem. I goofed and I'll say "I'm Sorry". But if I haven't, I'm not.
If I was to remit $10 short, No one wants to know what happened. They just want to know when will I pay it back.
Overpaid? I am just like the Missionary in "The Ugly American". I make big money. I also have big expensives.
There ya go ... you see? Most folks are happy to just go blissfully away saying folks in the token booth are OVERPAID. Nobody's making the case that it's quite common for a portion of that big fat outrageous paycheck to go back to the MTA out of your pocket. And I'm not the least bit surprised by the rest either, such is life in civil service. The ONLY people responsible for ANYTHING are the "bottom feeders" in "hourly titles" ... I've NEVER seen wigs or wiglets get keel-hauled.
And certainly NOT the politicians. :(
Like they teach in business screwel, the customer is always right. Actually, you should have gotten a cop and had the customer busted for attempted fraud.
If I was to call a cop, it would take a few minutes before one arrives. When he comes, I probably would have to have a supervisor there because it more of customer problem than a crime. During that time the line would grow longer and I'd have to deal with other customers. Annoyed because the line isn't moving, they are late and it would be "my fault". Like you just said "The customer is always right!"
THE REVOLUTION IS COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PEOPLE WILL BE TOO BUSY WALKING TO NOTICE A REVOLUTION!!!
Can someone give me a site where I can find (IN PLAIN ENGLISH) how to INSTALL BVE Correctly on a non-Japaneese PC. I downloaded it, but I dont want to mess up my PC in anyway. And I know a few of you guys on here use it so help me out :)
Anthony
I believe the newest installers are in english. Just run the installer and then go back to the site to download the english string.ini and replace the one in the program folder with the one on the site.
The BVE program on the original site from the mackoy should have the installer in english
Here ya go ... this'll explain it all for ya ...
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Hi. I know this is a hell of a time to be getting into the so called Christmas spirti with the threat of a subway and bus strike looming. That goes for TA employees who will without a doubt get hit right in the wallet and the riding public who depend on those subways and buses. Anyway I have a question concerning the strike. Will be up in New York on Sunday. Will the subways be rolling on Sunday? Or will a strike if it occurs be on Monday? Thanks for any help. Hope this works out for everyone.
The strike is scheduled for midnight on Sunday, so you should be OK.
There is NO scheduled time for a strike. The EARLIEST it could come would be 12:01am Sunday. The decision on when (or if) to call a strike by the Exec Board was ALL that was agreed on.
Right, Sunday 10PM
He didn't strike; Space Ghost fired him as announcer after he failed miserably in replacing Zorak on Coast to Coast.
I always said, maybe he will go form the Ghost Planet Tansit Authority
:-) :-) :-)
Time to play devils advocate.
What would happen if all TA personnel decided not to strike, but to quit. all at the exact same time?
Sure, their chances of being rehired at the TA/getting unemployment/etc would be challenging, to say the least, but hey, they couldn't be fined for quitting, could they? and just what would the TA do?
Even if many currently unemployed people appiled to take the massive amount of openings, the system would be in utter chaos for months, delays, bad service, accidents, you name it - and many folks that would consider such a job would probably say to themselves "if it was bad enough for all them people to leave, why should I even consider it?"
In the end, it would probably be so utterly ugly that the TA wouldn't have much choice but to take back many of the 'quitters'.
ah well... bring on the chaos!
A happy telecommuter :o)
That could easily be the strategy. If the fines of $25K per striker doubled each day are actually endorsed by a court, everybody is completely bankrupted if they strike. But if everybody quits the union has a lot more leverage. The issue may be how does the union insure that everybody really hands in their resignation. A strike is easier to organize.
Baseball umpires tried that a few years back. When the strategy failed baseball did not hire back all the umpires
Sounds like a winning strategy to me. All the dead wood will be cleaned out and not rehired
Only the non-replacable workers could quit. This means that token booth personel, car cleaners, track cleaners, janitors, etc would need to stay on the job. The MTA could put out a general hiring call and have those positions staffed in 72 hours (maybe longer for Token Booth). This is how mayor Randel averted a garbage strike back in Philly. He basically anounced that there would be 5000 job openings the next day and 25,000 showed up to apply. Of course of the trains aren't running and the towers aren't staffed and if the signal system isn't being maintained the end result is the same.
There's another possibility. There are millions of people who ride the subway and buses each day. These cogs in the military industrial machine could wield tremendous power, if only their minds and delicate areas weren't numbed by newspapers, television, radio and ads for Preparation H. The unwashed masses should stay home starting 12:01 Monday morning until the fare is brought back to 5 cents per ride or $1.75 for an unlimited monthly pass. There is no judge in a black robe that could force these lumpen proletariat to return to work.
If there was a mass exodus of employees, there would be alot of people that would be forced into working OT. After all if there aren't enought people what would happen? Of course TA would hire new people to take over the new openings. But it will take a while for those people to be properly trained to do the job. And that will require at least 2 weeks training. Otherwise we have have another Luciano.
We'd also be much closer to ZPTO, or at least OPTO. Seeing all of the workers quit would make the public much happier to accept a system that required as few people as necesary.
Same goes for things like token booth clerks, which quite honestly are even less essential than T/O's and C/O's. Station agents: don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you do useless jobs, but quite frankly you are easily replaceable by machines.
The public doesn't like getting screwed often, and in this day and age it's feasable to replace a lot of the transit workers by computers. A mass quit-off may work briefly, but it would probably lead to many layoffs down the road as their jobs are replaced by machines.
(The city filed its own lawsuit Thursday that sought even stiffer fines of $1 million a day from the union, to be doubled each day a strike continues, and $25,000, doubled daily, from each union member who strikes.)
I wonder if anyone involved understands the power of geometric progression. As I said, all of the economic damage would occur in the first week, as not much will get done Christmas and New Years week anyway. Start with $25,000, double it each day, and after 20 days every transit worker will owe $26 billion. Geez. They should have started with something reasonable, like $100, and limited the total fine to a few tens of millions.
It does seem counter productive. After 2-4 days the fines will bankrupt the average UTW member, and then they have nothing more to lose by staying out longer.
(It does seem counter productive. After 2-4 days the fines will bankrupt the average UTW member, and then they have nothing
more to lose by staying out longer. )
Not so. How about this -- "We'll collect the $2.6 billion by deducting 20 percent of your pay AND your pension until you die, and forgive the rest if you die before its paid. And by the way we can afford that 8, 8, 8 contract now -- it will really be -12, -4 and 4 compared with what you earn now. The higher salaries (without the penalty) will help us to recruit your replacements."
If this is the type of treatment the workers get they should just quit and fuck the city. While the city can take a hard like with people like garbage men and janitors (they can be replaced w/in the week), many transit workers are non-fungable. Most of their job skills take months if not years to learn. If they all quit the city would face months if not years of disruption. After about a week the city would be forced to hire them back w/ all their old benefits. Non-fungable workers don't the protections of a strike as they are exactly that, not replacable.
(While the city can take a hard like with people like garbage men and janitors (they can be replaced w/in the week), many transit workers are non-fungable. Most of their job skills take months if not years to learn. If they all quit the city would face months if not years of disruption.)
All that is true. Moreover I believe you are talking about the subway workers, and they back the current union leadership. I believe the bus drivers backed the prior union leadership, if I am no mistaken.
It makes you wonder about the mindset of the people proposing these fines. It's like being sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, then adding on 999 years. Is one supposed to sweat the thought of an additional 999 years?
(It makes you wonder about the mindset of the people proposing these fines.)
I wonder if they know what they are proposing.
No, you're seeing PRECISELY the attitude that had all the TWU people cheesed off in the FIRST place, the arrogance of the Paturkey farm that caused me to quit 7 years ago. Hopefully this little exercise will serve to show the PUBLIC why your civil servants don't feel terribly "civil" ... this is the mentality THEY'VE had to deal with all along. This move is just in keeping with the REST of the mentality of Paturkey's "style."
Even if they didn't double the fines, at $25,000 per day per worker, I think the City wants a strike so that they can eliminate the budget deficit. If the strike lasts more than a week, the city and state budget deficits will be completely eliminated. Any additional fines at this point can be used by Bush to provide tax relief for the rich.
Who would seriously have 25k in their bank accounts to pay the fine even just for one day?
Uh, heypaul.
I think they mean doubling like $25k, $50k, $75k, which of course would also wipe most people out pretty quick. The city could collect from the TWU, but I don't see how they could easily collect from individual employees unless they garnish their wages forever.
The state does indeed have the ability to do just that. And the "plan" is $25,000 on day ONE, $50,000 more the next day, $100,000 more then NEXT day, $200,000 the fourth day, $400,000 the fifth day, $800,000 more on the sixth day and $1.6 MILLION more at the end of the week. Serious stuff that only politicians can concoct. AND ENFORCE.
Gotta love them zany republicans, and thanks for your participation in Enron Math 101. :)
Just heard on Channel 11 that a judge ruled in favor of the MTA's injuction which means if the TWU and the members DO strike,not only will they get fined big time but they'll also go to jail.That'll teach em to cut the crap and accept whatever is offered to them.It's illegal to strike and that's not gonna change.So maybe now they'll think twice about doing it otherwise it's to the slammer they go.
You know it would take several weeks to process all 34,000 transit workers and by that time the damage would have been done. Jail is not a deterrant to striking, as seen by those teachers in New Jersey. All it did was turn public support against the administration.
The workers should just resign en-masse so they are technically not striking. Unless the MTA hired them back on their conditions, the MTA would face a 6-12 month transit outage while new workers were hired.
Not so for all parts of transit.
Transit would be able to get bus operations back in a matter of a few days. Maybe not the full schedulal but some semblance of a schedule to get people in and out of manhattan.
Plus enough subway workers would cross the pickets line(not quit) to get the major trunk lines running.
Boembardier and Kawasaiki could step in and handle maitainece on the r-142/r143 car classes
No worries about fare control since the system is automated. Since the economy is so bad, thier are plenty of out of work plenty of MCSE and CCNA networking specialist are available for hire. Bring in some techs from cubix to maintain the fareboxes.
No worries about fare control since the system is automated. Since the economy is so bad, thier are plenty of out of work plenty of MCSE and CCNA networking specialist are available for hire. Bring in some techs from cubix to maintain the fareboxes.
Or just let everyone ride for free until operations are back to some semblance of normalcy.
Could do that but it is not needed. Just refill the MVM's, clean the swipes on the turnstyles and all is well
If a few people jump the turnstyle, so be it
My guess though if quiting became the union bosses tactic, there would be few takers
I agree, wholesale resignation is not a wise move. Remember the baseball umpires a few seasons ago? The union called for a mass resignation and a large number did just that. Baseball used that as a way to get rid of the umpires they wanted to get rid of, accepting some resignations and hiring minor league umps to replace the one they had wanted to get rid of. Now I'm not saying umpiring a baseball game and running a consist of R-32's is the same thing. But the TWU memebers have put in years at thier job and mass resignation is way too risky. Why? Because even the strongest union has those who will break ranks, some because they deperately cannot lose even one day's pay, some with critical medical problems who need the medical coverage and some just do not support the union and put themselves ahead of the common good.
If the union knew it would get around 90-95% support, the plan could be effective, albeit still risky. We need to remember the government has move far to the right in past 20 years or so. Reagan fired an enitre union (in and of itself an interesting situation; they were barred from striking becuase they were a "vital" service that the country could not survive without, yet they apparently were not so vital they could not ALL be fired on a moments notice). Republican governors and presidents have filled the courts with right wing judges that are far less likely to interperet labor laws in a manner favorable to unions.
I just hope the MTA and Gov Paturkey figure out that the MTA may not be as broke as they are pleading. Remeber, the agency had a surplus in the last fiscal year, this fiscal year revenue is up. Makes me wonder if somone is cooking the books. Maybe the former Enron execs have been hired as MTA consultants???!?!?!
Reagan fired an enitre union (in and of itself an interesting situation; they were barred from striking becuase they were a "vital" service that the country could not survive without, yet they apparently were not so vital they could not ALL be fired on a moments notice).
And gave them such a bad name that a lot of them had a hard time finidng a job afterwards.
Ooo, good point, I forgot about the bus system, but still, could the MTA buses take over for the subways?
Anyway, it looks like the state has the TWU's nuts in a vice. The only option for the workers is to stop taking any sort of pride in their jobs.
>>>Plus enough subway workers would cross the pickets line(not quit) to get the major trunk lines running. <<<
It has been been esitimated that 90% of TA workers do not suport a strike, seeing that only 10% were in attendance at the strike vote.
AND up to 60% would cross in the event of a strike.
Peace,
ANDEE
Everyone that did not support the strike did not attend?
10%? You may want to double check that.
12,000 showed up IIRC out of 34,000.
This gives me 35%.
That was an inflated number, too.
Among the many bad things that can happen is a legacy of distrust between some workers and others. Labor-management relations are bad. If there is a strike, labor-customer relations will be hostile for 30 years. If there is labor-labor conflict, transit is really in trouble.
If they really wanted to break the union by having people cross, they'd better divide up the TA into separate organizations in the MTA reorg. Perhaps the A and B division could be separated, with one staffed exclusively by those who cross and one by those who do not. Otherwise, you'd have a mess.
"Noo Yawk ees A u-nyon toun." So they say.
English please?
I find it very difficult to imagine that 60% of the workers would cross picket lines. That would make the crossing rate far higher than for just about any strike in any industry.
even if 90% are against the strike...I think that it is more up to the workers union if they strike or not.
a judge ruled in favor of the MTA's injuction which means if the TWU and the members DO strike,not only will they get fined big time but they'll also go to jail.
Yeah, Right!... Where they going to find 34,000 jail cells in this city!
Elias
Well, that would only be an issue if all 34,000 TWU members were arrested. I doubt that it would be likely or necessary to arrest em all. Besides, in reality, I doubt that the TWU expects 100% participation from its members.
Fox 5 asked the union rep at 126th street depot how many of the drivers supported the stike
Only 18 dupported the strike out of the entire depot.
There was an alleged job action of sorts at 126th St Depot last month. Some drivers lost between one and 3 days pay with possible taylor Law violation hearings to come. In the meantime, documents, previously signed by the TWU, contradicted the issues raised by their own members. Hence, the reaction by most drivers there might be expected.
The only TWU members that will be thoung into jail would be the Presdent and his staff. The rank and file will only lose money two for one days lost.
And one more thing V Train B47, why should we just take the bull shit that the TA is offering. I don't know what you do for a living or if you just a kid and gets money from your parents when ever you need something. But ether way it is a bunch of crap, they don't even want to give us a raise of %1, and to top it all off that want to take money out of our wallets to boot. Thaey want to raise our CoPay to see doctors. I don't know about you be $45 a vistit is a lot of money for were I come from. I just found out that my doughter have Auttisum, now if see has to go to a specialest it might even coust me more for them. And how do you think I will pay for my home I just bought. I see I should go around and pan hanlding on my days off to pay for it, or should I just sell my house and live one the street with my wife and my three year old daughter.
So don't talk out of your DAME ASS, untill your in our place, and say that we sould just take it up the F--KING ASS like some good little Bitches.
Remenber with out us there would be no danm railfan for people like you. And yes I am railfan and not just a person who work for the TA.
And if this gets me kicked off this board, then so be it.
Thank you
Robert
I hope your message do not get you kicked off the board. You are just expressing your opinion like everyone else.
It won't be all 34,000 members.It'll only be those that DO decide to strike anyway like the morons that they are.It's illegal to do it,it's already been ORDERED BY A JUDGE NOT TO DO IT so if they do it anyway,sucks to be them. fines of $25,000 per day plus to the jailhouse they go. I tell ya right now,if I worked for the TA and even if the Taylor Law was in effect or not,I'd still work wether the union strikes or not.To me,the people are more important than what I'm getting paid.
OMG!! You are SO cold and uncaring. People have to support their families through these jobs, and as such deserve a comfortable wage.
Not to mention the people who rely on these workers to take them to their jobs to make money. They are not the only ones affected.
How can someone whos as sweet as yourself be so god damn cold?
In this world,you gotta care only about yourself and to hell with everyone else.The only time I care about someone else is when someone's life is in danger or is in a life threatening situation.
And of course I care about my family and friends,obviously.
"And of course I care about ........... my friends,obviously"
Obviously a very small number of people!!!!!
I agree. Who'd want to be friends with a person who thinks of other people that way?
And how has this thread taken such a drastic turn? All of you have to keep your personal fights out of this. I'm sure all of you are much more mature than this. If people post in this kind of environment, animosity and ignorance will prevail, I'm sure of it. Now kiss-up and hug!! :P
OMG! I never realized that TA workers had it so bad. I feel your pain, Robert.
After reading this I am now in utter support of a transit strike. The good members of the TWU are being forced to accept a contract that offers them shit. If they go to Jail then so be it. IM going to a revolution standpoint here by saying my next comment, but so be it. It is time for the good man to stand up against corporate America. And It is time to start a coup against Bloomberg. Bloomberg is doing nothing but taunting the TWU and is not doing anything useful that would halt any plans for a strike. And Toussaint is right, Bloomy needs to shut the hell up!
They get $52,000 after three years on the job to drive a bus. That's more than a lot of folks with college degrees make. They recieve their training from the Authority, at no cost to them. The only skill required is a valid driver license and a HS diploma. They train you for CDL now. They contribute nearly nothing to their health plan. They contribute nearly nothing to their pension plan. Guess who bears these costs? The taxpayers and farepayers. Everyone here bitches and moans about the fare hike, they bitch and moan about a tax hike, then they side with the union when they demand more money. NYCT workers are already among the highest-paid municipal workers in the city. They are amongst the highest-paid in the public transportation industry.
What's most screwed up about this situation? The same people that are polled about a tax or fare hike to support transit say 'NO!' because of the impact it will have on the low-wage worker, but then believe that the transit workers deserve higher pay, when they have no clue that they already get more than the 'impacted' person does. THey they start to complain about the increase in taxes.
WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE THINK THE MONEY FOR PUBLIC TRANSIT COMES FROM, THE MONEY FAIRY???
The current union leadership is more interested in making a political impact than securing their workers future.
-Hank
Very well put.
NYC Train Operators are paid less than Metro North, LIRR, and PATH T/O's.
In the case of the LIRR and Metro North, the MTA is setting the precedent by paying them so much money. I still want to know why I don't earn as much as they do. So, as long as the MTA demonstrates an ability to pay our counterparts such high salaries, it's only fitting that we ask the same.
THEY ARE ENGINEERS NOT F___ING TRAIN OPERATORS! Since when are transit Train Operators FEDERALLY certified? Since when did T/O's have to spend YEARS of training and study to qualify for their jobs? When was the last time a NYCT T/O operate a 550+ ton train with 85 foot cars reaching speeds of 80 mph or more? When was the last time a T/O operated on a line with out trip arms, grade timers and multiple red block redundancy where a SINGLE moments inatention can lead to a horrible accident?
ENGINEERS on real RAILROADS get more money because they are MORE SKILLED, their jobs are harder and they require more training. They are not in the TWU because they do a different job. They are not transit workers, but Railroad employees running on a national interstate transportation system.
Mike, What is the minimum time interval on an FRA railroad? Now, what is the time itnerval on the Subway? The T/O's job is MORE difficult than that of an engineer.
On LIRR, it's 2-3 minutes. This is why some people call the LIRR an "oversized" subway. On Metro-North, it gets pretty crowded on Park Avenue too. This is part of the reason those lines are generally grade-separated.
"The T/O's job is MORE difficult than that of an engineer."
An engineer on NJT who overshot a red signal by 30 feet put his train in the way of an oncoming train on a merging track, killing a whole bunch of people. With all the timers in place now, could a mistake by an NYCT T/O be that disastrous?
(I actually don't know the answer, and wouldn't even claim that the answer determines how the two jobs should be paid relative to each other.)
With all the timers in place now, could a mistake by an NYCT T/O be that disastrous?
Union Square.
Ok, let me make clear I do realize he said "in place now" and Union Square was 10 years ago, but the same still applies, timers are easily defeated. And such a thing can happen again.
Once again, Mikey, you've shown what a pucillanimous little weasel you really are. Where does a mental midget like you, who has no experience with either job (and likely no real job experience at all) get the balls to come off, not only as if he actually knows what he's talking about, but to be such a nasty little putz in doing so?
I have looked into the qualifications and experiance necessary for each job as well as the operating conditions. It is abundantly clear that the position of Engineer requires more training and skill than that of train operator. In my original post I stated a few of the factual reasons for this. Would you care to refute what I said? Would you please offer some of your infinite Train Dude wisdom to contradict my assertion? If you cannot refute what I said then you have no bussiness to tell me that I am wrong. I will accept either reasons why a T/O's job is harder or reasons why the reasons I gave are wrong.
Mike, as long as you asked the question, let me give you my thoughts on the subject:
First - Operating an M-1 and an R-46 are remarkably similar. The skill level required for both are about equal. Operating other rail equipment of both types (railroad & subway) require different skills but I don't think you can say one is decidedly more difficult than another. Such a comparrisons would be highly subjective.
Second - you are correct in stating that federal requirements are more stringent. However, you'd have to admit that the federal government often over-regulates industries.
Third - LIRR & Metro-north engineers operate at higher speeds, mostly in the open. NYCT Train Operators operate slower but in confined space of a tunnel with much sharper curves and far more interlockings. The environment of the NYCT operator is more congested and stressful that his RR counterpart.
Forth - LIRR/Metro-North have far mor comprehensive signal systems. Those same signal systems offer passive train control that NYCT operators do not have. For example - a LIRR engineer passing an approach signal at max speed will be alerted by an alarm and then find his brakes applied for him. The NYCT operator can pass a yellow signal at max speed with no mechanical enforcement. Hence, the NYCT operator is more prone to accidents under similar operator errors.
Fifth - Despite their more stringent qualifications, RR Engineers have a higher rate of passenger injury/passenger death and accident per passenger mile than NYCT operators do. NYCT train operators are statistically far safer than their RR counterparts.
I could give several more examples but the point that I'm trying to make is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Such comparrisons are often meaningless especially when you are trying to say that apples are worth less than oranges.
By the way, Mike, I didn't call you a weasel and a putz because I necessarilly disagree with you. I called you a weasel and a putz because, well, ...... you are a weasel and a putz.
And I am calling you an arrogent dickhead because you're an arrogent dickhead.
First, it dosen't matter if the government is over-regulating the railroads. Their regulations have created a requirement floor that is higher than than of the NYCT system. Because Engineers have to meet more requirements they get more pay. Plain and simple.
Second, the LIRR / MNRR does not hire M-1 engineers and Other Stuff Engineers. They hire Engineers and their pay stoped being linked to locomotive weight quite a long while ago. The railroads need people who can switch around from MU's to loco hauled trains with a relitivly simply qualifacation process. If some Loco hauled job is low on the bid list the railroad will need some non-senoir guy to be able to become familliar w/ the loco and then start railroading.
Yes the subway has more interlockings and curves, but the subway also has (especially in recent years) a plethora of timers that will slam on the brakes if a T/O does not obey a speed restriction. For example, on Metro North, there is no tie in b/t PSR's and the signaling system and if the E/R wants to take that 60 mph curve at 80 there is not much stopping him.
This is the crux of the issue. Between EMU operators and transit operators there probably isn't anything more required in terms of motor skils. However, the railroads require much more dicipline as railroad operations are so much less forgiving. Heck, this is abundantly clear in the MTA's decisions in recent years to decrease operating speeds, eliminate key-by and install more GT and WD signals. If the MTA can't trust every one of their own workers to maintain control of their rail vehicles how could the T/O's as a whole be trusted out on the open railroad where there is little or no supervision as to compliance of the rules.
On the NYTC if you blast past a yellow at full speed you'll get tripped at the red and come to a safe stop because the system is designed so that there is ALWAYS a braking distance behind every train. Almost every damgerous curve (and many non-dangerous ones) is protected by speed timers. T/O's don't have to deal with unsignaled lines or hand thrown switches. Finally, probably the most important factor is speed. Most NYC subway trains hit top speeds of 25 to 40, usually closer to 25. Yes, in the subway the clearances and distances are usually proportionally smaller, however, in the railroad world engineers can face tight curves, abrupt speed restrictions and limited visibility. The only differance is that they are in a vehicle that has the ability to reach speeds that are far beyond what the conditions allow for and that would result in a horriffic accident. It is like if you had a teenager and an adult both of equal driving ability would you allow both to drive a sports car.
My two primary arguements are one, necessary of not, Engineers need to jump through more hoops than T/O's and two, the T/O job can accept a lesser skilled/diciplined person than an Engineer job. I am sure that most T/O's if given the circumstances could go on to become good engineers, but I don't think that all of them could and because the T/O job can draw from a larger pool of people, therefore T/O's should in economic terms be paid less.
Your arguments are at best faulty and at worst, based on ignorance
"On the NYTC if you blast past a yellow at full speed you'll get tripped at the red and come to a safe stop because the system is designed so that there is ALWAYS a braking distance behind every train"
And then how do you explain the Williamsburg Bridge Accident, mikey? I sure hate to cofuse you with facts when your mind is made up. Timers not withstanding, the NYCT signal system does not enforce a yellow signal whereas LIRR approach signals are always passively enforced. Do you dispute this?
the LIRR / MNRR does not hire M-1 engineers and Other Stuff Engineers. They hire Engineers and their pay stoped being linked to locomotive weight quite a long while ago.
NYCT has diesel locomotives as well as MU equipment. The equipemnt, again is similar to LIRR equipment. I can tell you first- hand that there is little difference in operating skill needed between NYCT MU equipment and LIRR/MN MU equipment. There is little difference in the operating skills needed for LIRR diesels and NYCT diesels. Can you dispute this with first-hand knowledge?
First, it dosen't matter if the government is over-regulating the railroads. Their regulations have created a requirement floor that is higher than than of the NYCT system. Because Engineers have to meet more requirements they get more pay.
On one hand, the FRA requires a level of certification that the NYCT does not. On the other hand, the NYCT operators operate in a far more hostile environment and without exception, average more time in the cab that their RR counterpart. Now I suppose with your vast knowledge of running a railroad, you've taken these few bits of information and with no first-hand information, with no first-hand knowledge, you, Jersey Mike, has decided that LIRR & Metro-North engineers are worth more than NYCT train operators. I'm here to tell you that whether you are correct or incorrect is not the issue. The issue is that you are a child, making childish value judgements about people and jobs for which you are not qualifies to make.
"And I am calling you an arrogent dickhead because you're an arrogent dickhead"
Feel free, Mikey. I've been called far worse by far better. Besides - it doesn't change the fact that you are a putz - just a putz who can't admit he's wrong.
And then how do you explain the Williamsburg Bridge Accident, mikey? I sure hate to confuse you with facts when your mind is made up. Timers not withstanding, the NYCTA signal system does not enforce a yellow signal whereas LIRR approach signals are always passively enforced. Do you dispute this?
With Williamsburg bridge there was a malfunction with the train brakes and the fact that the driver fell asleep during the wheel. Under normal conditions the timer at a signal would of stopped the train.
On one hand, the FRA requires a level of certification that the NYCTA does not. On the other hand, the NYCT operators operate in a far more hostile environment and without exception, average more time in the cab that their RR counterpart. Now I suppose with your vast knowledge of running a railroad, you've taken these few bits of information and with no firsthand information, with no firsthand knowledge, you, Jersey Mike, has decided that LIRR & Metro-North engineers are worth more than NYCTA train operators. I'm here to tell you that whether you are correct or incorrect is not the issue. The issue is that you are a child, making childish value judgments about people and jobs for which you are not qualifies to make.
More less both environments are hostile. With the Railroads your operating a machine going at least 80MPH and which takes a good distance to stop. Plus the switches will go against you at the drop of a dime if u take to long to move your train. In the subways any little mistake can result in a deadly accident. you can take forever to move past a switch if you want to but your superior isn't gonna be all smiles. Your train goes through cramp, hot, damp and uncomfortable spaces any other human being would choke in(litterally). And even at 55mph your train is to fast. So both positions should be paid the same amount, or the equivalent.
The Willy B incident happened because the T/O fell asleep AND the signal system was inadequate for the equipment that is still being used.
The Williamsbug bridge accident did not occur because of a brake malfunction. The accident was due to an inadequate signal system. If, as I alluded to, the signal system had enforced the yellow signal, the accident would likely never have happened.
As to the LIRR vs Subway environment, I don't think there is any comparrison.
Hang on a second. Weren't there other factors besides the signal system. What about the GOH to the R40M. Wasn't the signal system designed for a train that was heavier, slower accelerating, that came equipped with steel brake shoes instead of the composition brake shoes. As an aside, did the R40M orginally have an air inshot valve? I know that the R36WF had one before it's overhaul although I don't know if that would affect emergency braking.
Absolutely correct - to a point. at the time the signal system was designed, the balancing speed for the heavier BMT cars was far less than the post GOH IND cars with 460 HP. But, in the final analysis, it is the signal system that must protect and it didn't - albiet for the reason you stated.
Agreed. Braking distance was insufficient. What about the air inshot valve question?
The inshot air was not an issue. The change-over to cmposition shoes made inshot moot. Besides, braking graphs of post GOH cars are identical to the original design criteria. Issue was balancing speed with 15% more HP
So air inshot did not play a role in emegency braking?
Of course, I left out the most critical point. Inshot air was used only during dynamic braking to keep the shoes against the wheel. This kept the shoes warm in preparation for braking - something that steel shoes needed but composition shoes did not. However, in the Williamsburg Bridge incident, inshot was not an issue because dynamic braking was never used. the train went from power, into emergency braking. There was never a demand for a service brake - so inshot would not have been there even if it were part of the braking system.
More often - the issue of suplimental air braking is raised. Again, this was dismissed during the investigation because it was never part of the original design criteria of the R-40/R-40M/R-42. Additionally, supplimental air would also have not been part of the emergency brake in this instance.
Again, this was dismissed during the investigation because it was never part of the original design criteria of the R-40/R-40M/R-42.
Thanks. That answers my question.
Komrad TrainDudesky: never caught the past posts BUT I had asked the question of why 'inshot pressure' was incorperated on R142 undercar inspection reports. The supervisor inquired of gave a long and babbling explanation...it was another sup who you know that erroneously added it to the form. "Inshot pressure is the mantained brake cylinder pressure required to place steel brake shoes upon the tread to keep them warm and ready for rapid shoe brake response." I experienced the R142 burning composition shoes firsthand...heard all the tales of dropping 45 pound steel shoes...and saw in Branford what steel shoes do (a shot one still weighs about 15 pounds.) I learn everyday and will NOT go back to THAT supervisor with your common sense explanation. TA work is FUN work!
Oh, the pinko Commies and 'fellow travelers' were in force at Mondays demonstration at City Hall. 'We support you, we support TWU, just don't bomb Iraq.'
Seems competance is no longer a virtue and true knowledge is no longer an asset. Seems another one of my protogees is moving up.
'Oh, the pinko Commies and 'fellow travelers' were in force at Mondays demonstration at City Hall. 'We support you, we support TWU, just don't bomb Iraq.' Like fine wine, I savor vintage JUICE-- GLAD to have you back.
You are correct that the inshot valve had no relevance to the
WB incident. Likewise supplemental air only came in to play
in service braking and only on old-school SMEE equipment.
However, don't lay it entirely at the feet of increased speed
from the peppier motors. The NTSB found that the effective
rate of emergency deceleration on that class of GOH cars in 1995 was
far lower than spec of 3.0++ This was a result of a deliberate
decsision to reduce emergency brake rates which were felt to
be causing excessive flats and minor passenger injuries and
resulting lawsuits. The J1.4-14 relay valves were installed
as the cars were GOH'd. After an extensive study of emergency
braking rates, the relay valves were very quietly re-adjusted
to get back to the 3.2 rate. So you are 100% correct in saying
that today the GOH cars have emergency braking performance comparable
to the original spec, but in saying that you gloss over a major point!
The Willy B accident proves my point. Its cause aside (faulty brakes or humans) after the accident the MTA lowered system speeds and increased the use of timers. This shows a definite lack of confidence in the ability of their T/O's to operate trains safely. On a railroad such an accident would probably have been deemed an isolated incident (like that Amtrak bangup in Syracyuse) that would have required no real need to alter operating practices.
It is imaterial if subway operators operate under worse conditions. If we paid people based on the comfort of their jobs Janitors would stand to make the highest saleries. The price of labour is determined by size of the applicant pool. RR engineers have a smaller pool of applicants and thusly they are paid more. This is the ONLY thing that matters. Supply and Demand, plain and simple. In the labour market the skills of a transit driver are worth less than those of a locomotive engineer.
I had a feeling this would happen. Why all of the ad hominem attacks? All of us here except the extreme trolls are mature people who CAN conduct all of ourselves in a civil way. Must we resort to childish name-calling to get our points across or is civilized, acceptable conversation a thing of the past?
I implore someone to answer me. :-(
Mike. you said, ""On the NYTC if you blast past a yellow at full speed you'll get tripped at the red and come to a safe stop because the system is designed so that there is ALWAYS a braking distance behind every train"
I've refuted that argument. Either defend your point or give it up. YOU ARE WRONG no matter how you fog the issue. On the Class I RR approach signals are passively enforced. On NYCT, the yellow signal is not.
The TA has not eliminated the key-by feature in it's signals, the NO KEY-BY sign just tells the T/O what procedure must be used to pass that particular signal. If the key-by feature were eliminated trains would back-up behind red signals waiting for a TSS or signal maintainer to show up.
How dare you correct mike. he knows everything there is to know about signals.
Methinks "Dude" is on a roll.
Is it buttered or an egg?
Would you consider a PATH T/O an engineer?
Since you seem so informed, tell me, something. How many years do LIRR and METRO NORTH T/O's spend studying? What qualifications do they need to possess to be hired? What kind of exams do they take in order to get the job? Or, do they simply send a resume and then get hired based largely on who they know!
Whether you like it or not, I do the same job as a LIRR or Metro North T/O, and deserve as much pay.
Engineers at the very minumum have to be Federally certified, which requires an exam taken after no less than 60 hours of class time. An engineer has to re-qualify every three years. They also have to pass a rules and equipment examination given by the operating railroad and I believe spend 6 months as a student engineer. Qualifacations for Engineer do vary greatly depending on the railroad with of course class 1 freight carriers being the most rigourous and shortlines generally being pretty easy. However, anyone with an engineer card can be called upon to opperate any sort of train.
Engineers are most definitly held to a higher standard, especially so with the Feds breathing down their neck (every engineer must have 2 surprise operating safety tests per month by law). Engineers have less room for error and much greater responsibility. The trains are faster and heavier and take a lot more distance to stop. There is much less in the way of safety enforcement devices. Most railroad safety is reliant SOLELY on the dicipline and professionalism of the Engineers to do their jobs properly. Often times Railroad speed restrictions aren't even posted wayside and Engineers sometimes need to have down to a tree specific knowledge of the route. I am sure that many Subway T/O's have all these necessary abilities, but the thing is that they aren't required for them to do their subway T/O job adequately.
Anyway, to answer your question in general, Engineers get paid more because they have a little white card from the government and you don't. They are watched over by Big Brother and you are not. Their job has less margin for error. How much they get paid more is then based upon the specifics on their job.
NYC Train Operators are paid less than Metro North, LIRR, and PATH T/O's.
Chiago and Boston too, I believe. I'm not going to get into the MNRR and LIRR thing (as usual with Conductors in NYCT) though because the Conductors there collect tickets, responsible for money, etc.
What's most screwed up about this situation? The same people that are polled about a tax or fare hike to support transit say 'NO!' because of the impact it will have on the low-wage worker, but then believe that the transit workers deserve higher pay, when they have no clue that they already get more than the 'impacted' person does. THey they start to complain about the increase in taxes.
WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE THINK THE MONEY FOR PUBLIC TRANSIT COMES FROM, THE MONEY FAIRY???
That's New York for you. It goes way beyond transit too. People want cradle-to-grave social welfare service and high pay for municipal employees - especially the now-sacroscant cops and firefighters - but haven't quite figured out that the money's got to come from somewhere. Christ Almighty, I wish like anything that I lived in the Sunbelt.
"I wish like anything that I lived in the Sunbelt."
Why don't you look for a job there? Some people actually like what New York has to offer. If you don't, why stick around?
I wish like anything that I lived in the Sunbelt.
Why don't you look for a job there? Some people actually like what New York has to offer. If you don't, why stick around?
Because my job is located in New York. I've been there over nine years, make a decent living, and generally enjoy what I do. That's not to mention family and other ties keeping me here. Note that this does not mean that I have to like Typical New York Incompetence and its financial irresponsibility.
This is plain utter bull
Gotta send this gut back to the FARM!
Bulls do not have udders!
(That's how you can tell them apart: If it ain't one thing, its an udder!)
Elias
"That'll teach em to cut the crap and accept whatever is offered to them."
Cut the crap and accept whatever is offered? Let me offer you this. Go F^ck yourself!
Luch:
Couldnt have said it better!
Read the post that I put just for "V Train" in this thread. I think it says it all to whomevery thinks that that we should get Crap.
Robert
If they don't wanna offer you more than what they already have and nothing will change their minds then accept it,better to accept it than to keep on waiting for something better when they wont give it to you. Although I really do think that they should offer something better. Cause do the math,if there are 7 million people who use the buses and subways and the fare is $1.50,that means they make about 3 million dollars PER DAY! Per day! And then they don't say that they have enough money and they want to raise the fare? That's BS! Where the hell does all that money go to? It get's sunk with the Redbirds or WTF!?
Eloquently said Monsieur Luch.
You know, you could have gotten across without that swearing. I swear, this thread has gotten off the deep end with all these personal attacks.
That'll teach em to cut the crap and accept whatever is offered to them.
Ok, ya know, the money thing I'm not going to get into. Its been run to death. And honestly I don't care about that.
Health care. Big thing. I should settle for having to pay a good amount out of pocket? When I'm getting a 0% raise?
Now for what the public has heard little of, and of which I'm disappointed of Roger. The discipline. Yes I agree that rules violation is a bad thing, but the TA takes it to the extreme. This one of the important issues to the workers (and why is Roger not making this apparent to the public, instead leaving them to think its all about the money?). I'm sure you so the public some of the penalties that we're exposed to, and for what reasons, you'd get a little more support. I should have to settle with that? I hold the doors open for 9 seconds instead of 10 and I have to go downtown? Absurd! I say "This is a G train to Smith and 9th Streets" instead of "This is a Smith and 9th Streets bound G train" and I go downtown (I gave all the information, but the first is not as bad as a tongue twister :-) ). Again, I should have to work under those conditions, knowing one word out of place, one second on the doors puts me on the chopping block? These may seem extreme to you, and the first I give an example, but in the case of the announcements they have done exactly what I mentioned (Condutor said "G train to Court Square" instead of "Court Square bound G Train"). T/O's have their own variations (not a T/O not even going to speculate on the major discipline on minor infractions).
Get the point? I don't think you would want to have to deal with that.
That is fairly ridiculous, I agree.
I've heard numerous announcements that don't follow the official script. They're often quite good nonetheless -- sometimes superior to the official script. (I heard one that comes to mind on a Redbird 2 train this summer -- "This is a 2 train making all stops to 241st Street in the Bronx," or something like that, providing useful information for those who were unaware that the 2 ran local.)
It's particularly galling that human C/R's are disciplined for giving accurate information in the correct form while some of the automated R-142 and R-142A announcements are almost 17 months out-of-date.
It's particularly galling that human C/R's are disciplined for giving accurate information in the correct form while some of the automated R-142 and R-142A announcements are almost 17 months out-of-date.
Not to mention that the C/R that doesn't correct the out of date automated announcement can be written up by supervision (Bulletin released a few months back on the matter).
That I don't have a problem with (although I'd certainly prefer that the automated announcements themselves be corrected), but I rarely hear it done these days -- on occasion a C/R will "ping out" the announcement (and maybe even replace it with a correct one), but more often it will play normally.
Some points that C/R's seem to miss frequently (IME):
The N doesn't run north of Pacific at nights or on weekends; the W does.
Weekdays, 2 C/R's should announce the V at 14th (but not the shuttle, as I heard last week on a 3).
The M does stop at Fulton, Borough Hall (Court), and Atlantic (Pacific) middays.
PATH is not available at Park Place.
When the 2 is making all local stops for whatever reason (late night or otherwise), it's not a "Bronx-bound 2 express train."
I don't know if the bulletin explicitly includes or excludes any of these examples.
Some C/R's have gotten complacent with the R-142's: even if the program is way off, they don't make manual announcements. A month or two ago, during the big 2/5 weekend GO in the Bronx, I was on a 2 from 149-GC that thought it was coming from 241; two station announcements were made before we stopped at 135, but neither was for 135. And a few weeks ago, during the late night Lenox GO, I boarded a SB 2 at 96 shortly after midnight on the local track. I needed to know if it was going local (I don't know offhand when exactly the 2 is scheduled to start running local, and the express track was obstructed by a work train, so it was possible that this was the last express). The interior signs gave 72 as the next stop, but the system didn't make any announcement at all, nor did the C/R.
Some C/R's have trouble making accurate announcements. Penalizing C/R's for making accurate announcements of the wrong form is a distraction, at best.
Incidentally, say SB R/W trains are running over the bridge one weekend. A C/R on the 3 is aware of this fact and wants to make sure none of his passengers get off at Borough Hall to transfer to the SB R/W. Is there a canned announcement form that fits the scenario, or is the C/R forced to choose between proper form and accuracy?
Is there a canned announcement form that fits the scenario, or is the C/R forced to choose between proper form and accuracy?
Usually they do have a script that the C/R is supposed to follow, usually attaches to the "Schedule Subway Detours" booklet that each operating employee is supposed to pick up and the beginning of the week.
Some GO's don't have one in there and the Superintendent will have one made up (as in the case of the Queens bound E/V skipping Lex weekday morn).
Other times (the only one that I can think of is when the J skipped certain stops due to rehab), the Supt would put out a letter at each terminal saying "Please make the appropriate announcements" in which case I guess its up to the C/R.
I had no idea there was such a booklet. Many C/R's obviously don't look at it. Does it cover both operating divisions?
Note that I'm referring to transfer announcements on line X that are affected by changes to line Y. Most C/R's seem to make good announcements about their own detours. The one major exception is when locals are sent on the express track: the usual "This train is running express" announcement is ambiguous (this train only, so you should wait for the next one if you need a local, or all trains, so you have to go to the next express stop and backtrack), and C/R's on the express usually don't bother informing their passengers not to bother transferring to the local that isn't a local.
If the local is rerouted due to problems with a train ahead of it the C/R doesn't know if the next train will be rerouted or not.
The C/R should try to find out. Otherwise passengers have no way of knowing how best to reach their destinations. I realize further information is often unavailable.
But I was referring to scheduled GO's. If the local track is closed from 72 to 42 all weekend, "This train is running express" is a needlessly vague announcement. How about something like this, made on both locals and expresses: "Attention ladies and gentlemen, due to track work this weekend, all downtown 1, 2, and 3 trains are running express to 42nd Street. Passengers for 66th Street, 59th Street, and 50th Street should stay on this train to 42nd Street and transfer to a Bronx-bound 1 train, which will make all local stops." (Many C/R's do make announcements of this flavor, but many don't.)
I always tell my C/R to say ALL trains are running express because people always ask "Will the 9 be making all stops?" and we all know the answer to that one "Yes, Monday morning"
That's even better. Thanks!
In this case, there is more than likely a 'scripted' announcement, but the C/R just doesn't follow it sometimes. Or doesn't make it at all.
Gotcha. Well in that case, where the 3 conductor made the announcements about the R & W, no, there is no set of announcements. What you usually get is an intra-district memo that will say like this is only an example):
"E, F, G & R Conductors
Starting XXX make the following annoucement at all station between Continental Avenue and Queens Plaza:
'Ladies and Gentlemen starting XXX the G train will no longer stop at these stations', yadda yadda."
That's probably the closest down here you'll get to inter-line announcements.
Oh and another thing... C/R's must make announcements in the station, those who make station announcements outside are written up. The R142/143 however do just that. And let's not get into the 'better PA' issue because I have been on quite a few 142s and 143s where the PA was almost inaudible.
Here I agree 100%. I still don't see what's wrong with making most station announcements while the train is moving, but whatever the rule is, it should be applied consistently.
Well the only thing I can think of, and its not the fault of the Conductor, is that most train PA's do suck.
Back in the old days, IF we had a PA, we were supposed to tell them what station we were ABOUT to stop at, so folks could gather up their stuff and get ready to shuffle off the train. Before closing doors, we'd tell them what was going to be NEXT. Must be me, but strikes me as begging for a "customer chinoix fire drill" if you have to wait until the train stops to tell folks where they are, so they can run in panic mode as the doors close in their face. Must be me, but then again we didn't have to play "beat the clock" on top of all else. If I still lived in the city, I don't think I'd appreciate the current procedures for a conductor.
And I *loved* when a conductor would "wing it" ... made for a pleasant surprise, enjoyed entertaining the geese myself when the opportunity presented, and most folks LIKED it. Ah well ... we ARE living in humorless times I s'pose ...
Must be me, but strikes me as begging for a "customer chinoix fire drill" if you have to wait until the train stops to tell folks where they are, so they can run in panic mode as the doors close in their face.
This is why when I was a conductor not too long ago, certain stations (like 59/8, 42/8, 34/8, 34/6, 34/BWay, W4, Bway-Nassau, etc etc) I would break the rules on that matter and make the announcement coming in IF AND ONLY IF I knew I had a good PA.
I usually worked Arnines back then, so there wasn't a PA and DAMN if I didn't drop my megaphone somewhere along the railroad dismounting. But when I had a PA, I'd make it a point to use that time before dropping my sash to let folks know where they were. Amazingly, doing that helped me beat the clock better since MY geese were ready to leave the train. Often saved a few seconds at each major and I'd get to the other end on time.
Now you have to play "beat the clock" ... wonder why? :\
Also realize that the press doesn't want to hear about discipline, even if Roger speaks about it they will never show it because it does not sell.
There are other ways to inform other than the press. Like the newsreporters out there asking about the strike, you can have a FEW (I know 100 does not have tremendous resources in the way of personnel) and maybe some volunteers (members on their way home, whatever) getting the word out.
Heres a bargin deal. I am going to give you a 0% raise force you to pay for your own healthcare and if you dont like it? Go to f^ckin jail.
Oh yeah. I love that type of deal.
If you were mayor then New York would be up shit creek.
If I were a million dollars rich,I wouldn't give a damn.I'd quit transit and live a life of luxury.
And the people who work for the MTA obviously don't have 1 million dollars. Thats why theres about to be a transit strike.
And as I said in a previous post,the MTA makes about 3 million dollars everyday,so they have to give some of it to thier worker's. Then they say that they don't have enough money? Like I said in the same post,where does the money go to? It get's sunk with the Redbirds or WTF!?
The MTA spends about 7 billion a year on operating cost. And mainly on rail and bus maitenance. Also for salaries, contracts, many transit proposals, lawsuits, service alterations, and other cost. In the end thats about 1.095 for subways and busses. For the LIRR and MNR I dont know. But in all the MTA is still short a few hundred million. There are services which are unneded, but thats another story.
"And as I said in a previous post,the MTA makes about 3 million dollars everyday,so they have to give some of it to thier worker's"
The MTA does not earn a rat cent in profit. The fares collected does not cover operating expense.
"where does the money go to?"
$4,098,630 a day goes to pay employee's salaries not counting health bennifits and other bennifits such as sick days and vacation days
(34,000*44,000)/365=4 million a day in salary. This seriously needs to be reduced
nearly $700,000 is spent a day on unneeded tooken booth clerks
And the people who work for the MTA obviously don't have 1 million dollars. Thats why theres about to be a transit strike.
Nor do the overwhelming majority of transit riders, the people who'll be greatly inconvenienced by the strike.
So we'll march day and night
By the big cooling tower
They have the plant
But we have the power
Sorry couldn't resist :-)
LMAO!!
Ha, someone lied it, and I screwed up and only got in the last stanza. Well, fixed it:
Come gather 'round children,
It's high time ye learned,
'Bout a hero named Homer
And a devil named Burns.
We'll march till we drop,
The girls and the fellas,
We'll fight till the death
Or else fold like umbrellas.
So we'll march day and night,
By the big cooling tower,
They have the plant,
But we have the power.
Heh, I really loved that ep of the Simpsons. Though, I can't pinpoint why they did so in the first place... I thnk it had to do with the Dental Plan...
This begs the question: Why does the City (or anybody else) need an INJUNCTION against a strike? There's already a LAW prohibiting a strike!!
The answer, of course, is the dollars: Since the CITY sought and got the injunction, the CITY (instead of Transit) gets to collect the fines and penalties, on top of the $5 million that he wants from TWU to cover all those contingency plans. Transit gets only whatever it doesn't pay the strikers.
"Since the CITY sought and got the injunction, the CITY (instead of Transit) gets to collect the fines and penalties"
The MTA got the injunction.
I think the point of the injunction is so that it's also contempt of court and union officials can be jailed.
It also begs the question: Is Bleepburg hoping to take his $25,000+ fines to balance NYC's budget? Why else would he be threatening to collect all this money for which he wouldn't be able to collect otherwise?
Tonight, I got my first look at the SJLRTS car doing preliminary tests on the tracks in Camden, NJ. Due to the poor weather, I did not stay around, nor get a good look at the number of the car that was making the test run. This sighting was at the intersection of Haddon and Mickle Blvd, 1 block away from the Walter Rand Transportation Center, at 6:45 pm. From my quick view, the car is a low floor model with a slight resemblence to the HBLRT car, but with the mid section being the diesel power unit. Maybe when the weather gets better, I'll get a better look of the car as it makes its tests.
The car is scheduled to test on the streets of Camden on Saturday and Sunday, too. I'll be out looking for it.
Some photos of the first two cars (in the 32nd Street shop) are on a Webshots page.
I saw the test car, #3505(the second car delivered) on private ROW at Mickle Blvd at 12:30 Sat. A number of people were inside having a major conversation. I couldn't wait for it to move onto street running because my better half was with me.
I anticipate going back.
The diesel light rail car testing in Camden today is #3506, which was in transit on the Atlantic Ocean when I took the SNJLRTS 32nd Street shop tour on Nov 16.
Photos of #3506 at the Walter Rand Transportation Center light rail station are on a new Webshots page.
I went into Camden again on Sunday afternoon and found DLRC car #3506 at the Waterfront Entertainment Center station, the southern terminus of the line. Six photos were added to Saturday's six photos on a Webshots page.
Note that all the black railings are PRR style railings.
I would have been out looking for the car, but today I worship at the "Church of the Gridiron", so I will be in all day. Maybe during the week, I`ll get a sighting or maybe a picture.
Heypaul's fully equipped R-9 cab could go along way in helping the foaming public deal with their withdrawl pangs during the strike period.
I think Paul should set up a Cubix swipe reader in the doorway of his apartment and collect $1.50 for everyone who enters. As well he should have the option of having people reswipe so that he would get a full $3.00 per person visting his establishment...This would benefit the diehard foamers as well as lining Paul's pockets so that he can buy more Greyhound monthly excursion passes...
Doug... You took the words out of my mouth... I am astounded...
Apparently, warped minds think alike :)
It will be "Calming Center Central".
What?!? No FunPass at heypauls? Forgeddaboudddit!!!
--Mark
Fun pass for friends only...I'm sure you'd be included.
Peace,
ANDEE
But how would we get there if the Brighton line isn't running?
Well, if I still had my '69 Chrysler 300 I think I could've carpooled most SubTalkers to heypaul's apartment. On the otherhand come to think of it, I don't think there are parking spaces big enough for a 'land yacht' in his neighborhood. :)
My new Mopar will only hold four comfortably (well there IS room in the trunk).
Hey Doug, I've got a seven-seater Windstar now - no more Monte carlo -
Lot's of roonm to go to Ocean Ave.
Great! Let's organize a carpool in the event of a strike! I sure hope heypaul has enough coffee 'n doughnuts for some hungry railfans! :)
Maybe we could try putting #4 Sea Beach Fred, #3 Brighton Bob Exp., and myself #3 West End Jeff in the same car.
#3 West End Jeff
HEYPAUL is not about to support a bunch of foamers at his place of residence, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
...but, they could come over here....IF they're good looking...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
....or are armed with six-packs or a litre of Cognac....LOL! :)
Uh, too late...don't you remember the 'gathering' from two years ago? I recall even YOU were present...:)
Heypaul's been making a list and checking it twice. He's been noticing who's been naughty and nice (on SubTalk). So you had better watch out and you had better be good because his tunstile has been programed to admit only good little boys & girls.
Tis the season folks, I don't know about you but I'm getting a little tired of all the "... strike ..." post on SubTalk.
I can just picture foamers wanting to take a "ride" in heypaul's R-9 cab. They want to feel like they're riding the subway while they're inside the cab.
#3 West End Jeff
Will copies of "heypauls biography" be on sale?
Will there be a selection of Tee Shirts depicting heypauls adventures with and against the Evil "Kingfish" be for sale again?
Will his skeeballs be on view? Who will authenticate the balls?
Will a select few see them and and even selecter few be able to touch them?
Will the famous heypaul baseball hat with earmuffs be availible with the Kingfisk logo?
Will heypaul do a reading from "Narrow Gauge Mountain Rail Road" ?
the spauning scene was the best!
avid
[Will copies of "heypauls biography" be on sale?]
Yes. But I don't know how many people would be interested in ready a book of 3 pages long (of double spaced type)?
[Will there be a selection of Tee Shirts depicting heypauls adventures with and against the Evil "Kingfish" be for sale again?]
Should be available....but be prepared to fork over $23 p/shirt!
[Will his skeeballs be on view? Who will authenticate the balls?
Avid, why are you interested in his balls? This doesn't speak well for you...
[Will a select few see them and and even selecter few be able to touch them?]
Uh...I ain't going there!
[Will the famous heypaul baseball hat with earmuffs be availible with the Kingfisk logo?]
It comes in XXXXL only (fits heypaul's cranium just fine)
[Will heypaul do a reading from "Narrow Gauge Mountain Rail Road" ?]
Only if he wants to entertain insomniacs...
Well, Avid, there you have it. Hope I was able to help you out! :)
In recent months I've been absorbed in Coney Island, Skee Ball and the Parachute Jump. A couple of days ago I was watching the 1953 movie "Little Fugitive" which was about a young boy who ran away to Coney Island when he thought that he had killed his older brother.
Anyway, another member of the Coney Island group, asked me to freeze a frame of a scene with a boat ride. When I looked at it carefully, I noticed that the boats had a pole just like the bumper cars. In fact the ride looked like it was at a bumper car installation. Anyway, someone wondered how the ground return was achieved. I thought that there might be a contact on the bottom of the boat that completed the ground to the metal floor.
Since the Scoota Boats were a form of electric traction, I am sure that some of our resident electrical engineers and Connecticut trolley enthusiasts would know the answer. I'm sure it has something to do with the Biot Savart Law.
Click on the attachment to my post at the Coney Island Yahoo Group. If you're interested in Coney Island, Parachute Jumps, Philip's Candy, Bungalow Colonies, Stillwell Terminal or Skee Ball--- why not join the group??
Scoota Boats
Yup, Paul, this is absolutely the best place to find that information. However, if by some small chance, no one here is up to speed on scoota boats, perhaps you can check out some of the Mah Jongg groups on Yahoo.
Paul ... my guess is that they floated in salt water (not hard to come by in that location) and the conductivity of the salt water completed the ground path ... it's JUST a guess, but it would work.
Kevin... I thought that might be also, but I imagined electrochemistry problems with that. Gases would be given off as the water breaks down. I just tried a small scale experiment with an electric train transformer and a couple of lights. I took a small bowl of water and threw a lot of salt into it. I interrupted the flow of electricity to the lights and took two wires and used the water to complete the circuit. Even with the wires very close, the bulbs did not light, although you could see gases bubbling off them. I don't think this would be practical with the much higher currents needed to power the car motors.
_______________ ceiling
)
| <--- upper power pole
|
BOAT
| <--- contactor to the floor
)____ floor
Here's how I imagine the grounding system working.
Yeah, sounds like you're right. I'm still attempting to achieve consciousness (or at least what passes for it here) ... I guess the only real answer will come from an on site "car inspection." There might well be WHEELS under them boats.
Not knowing anything about electricity I think what you said about wheels under it might be true. The water definitely looks shallow in the picture. It looks like it just might be a regular scooter ride with boatlike cars and a small layer of water to make it look like a boat ride.
Well, spent most of my life in things electrical and salt water can conduct a good amount of current. Alas, Heypaul's little experiment went horribly awry so there's gotta be a better method. Then again, only on Coney Island would they have people on a ride where there'd be electricity in the water. Then again, I think of all those mornings sloshing through Coney Island Yard too. :)
Paul, you might not believe this but you did pique my curiosity with this bit of NY nostalgia. I spoke to my uncle last night (who was a Conel Island regular) from as far back as the early 30s. He doesn't remember the scoota boats but I found some color slides (actually 2) of myself and one of my brothers in what might have actually been a scoota boat. Anyway, I digress.
What I was really thinking is, as you did with the R-9, get something like a 16' round pool in your livingroom and build a prototype and experimment. Likely, a 3' or 4' deep pool would do. I'm sure that many subtalkers, as curious as myself, would be eager to help you resolve the issue.
I doubt it. Salt water isn't a great conductor (as a matter of act, pure water ISN'T), you'd have hydrogen gassing like crazy amazing current drops, not to mention, it'd probbably be honk'n dangerous to do it.
Not to mention elecrolytic corrosion!
I'm guessing a contact under the boat to the bottom of the pool (which is the ground return). With sufficiently pure water and good grounding, this would be a bit safer.
As an aside - the coolest bumper car interpretation I ever saw was the early 'flying saucers' ride at Disneyland. The floor surface had a grid of 4" diameter holes, each with an air shutter of some sort to turn the flow on and off. as the car passed over a hole, the air would be turned on, thus inflating the skirt and actually causeing a hovercraft like levitation. By leaning, one could steer the device around.
It only lasted three years, so I suspect it was either really unreliable or just not practical - it had to be popular...
Yeah, wasn't terribly awake when I posted the original, was thinking back to physics class with distilled water, 110 and bulb (nothing), throw in a little salt and light ... it eventually dawned on me that there HAD to be something dragging along the metal.
And back in the heyday of Coney Island, folks'd get a zitz and think it was FUN. That of course before the days of 1-800-GETRICH ... of course, over the the subway yards, some briney water, 600 volts and grounded steel cars was just another day on the job.
. A couple of days ago I was watching the 1953 movie "Little Fugitive" which was about a young boy who ran away to Coney Island
Heypaul,
The Little Fugutive is one of my all time favorite movies. The little boy in the film, Richie Andrusco, is actually only a few (3?) years older than I, so I have many rememberences of the Coney Island that appears in the picture. It recieved an academy award nomination for best original story. More importantly, it has a couple os scence of BMT Standards.
bob... more importantly, the movie has some wonderful scenes of coney island during the 1950's... an operating parachute jump, nathan's frankfurter grill and a moody glimpse of stillwell terminal...
my friend carol sent me a link to a review of little fugitive as well as 2 other films made by the producers...
little fugitive
Nunlies in Baldwin LI had one of those boat rides.
Never paid too much attention to how it worked as I watched my kids enjoy the ride :-(
With the 4-person carpool rule going into effect on Monday if a strike occurs, will any exceptions be made, especially to celebrities? The entertainment industry depends on people like David Letterman, Regis Philbin, and others to show up to work. -Nick
They can take the railroad, or they can pick up a few hitchhikers to fill up the car.
I don't think celeb's are exempt. I do know that NYPD has issued special permits for some to drive to work without 4 people in the car in case there is a strike. Wanna guess who got them?
Hmm, I'm gonna say politicians. Still, while the police have pulled him over for speeding, if someone saw David Letterman w/o 3 other people in the car, they just might let him go. -Nick
Police Officers?
More than likely the "Celebrities" would be put up in fancy hotels paid by their networks of course I dont think Reeg or Dave have anything to worry about, like me who has to work two jobs to eat pay rent, or watch it wither away in the stock market.
A member of SubTalk will be staying in a mid-town hotel if there is a strike...his company is footing the bill...not bad, huh?
You remember the Rocke-Belt (aka Jet-Pack) don't you? It was featured in the classic James Bond film "Thunderball" and the TV series "Lost In Space". In the past it's been used at SuperBowls and at other sporting and entertainment events held outdoors.
Funny thing is it is a real device, developed by Bell Labs (the same group that makes helicopters). The Rocket-belt uses Hydrogen-Peroxide for fuel and can take a sole traveler on short trips. At the time it was invented (late 50's) it was rather bulky and combersome, requiring two people to assist the pilot with strapping it to his back (it weighed close to 100 pounds!). It also only had enough fuel to be airborne for no more than 45 seconds at a time before requiring refueling. Also, there were only two pilots qualified to operate them over the years (two AirForce pilots, names escape me).
If you want to avoid those traffic snarls I believe you can buy a rocket-belt from Bell in a kit form for around $5,000....the propellent -- highly unstable Hydrogen-Peroxide (under pressure) -- not included...fly at your own risk...:)
Funny thing is it is a real device, developed by Bell Labs (the same group that makes helicopters).
Almost but not quite... the rocket belt was developed by Bell Aircraft (later Bell Aerospace). Bell Labs was the research and development arm of Ma Bell, a.k.a. AT&T; when AT&T split off the Baby Bells they kept it but when they divided again in 1996 it went with Lucent Technologies and is now very close to disappearing entirely as Lucent collapses. (AT&T did retain a small piece of it, now known as AT&T Labs.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, thanks for the additional clarifications!
Notice went out yesterday for "B" division transfers.
So for people like me who are stuck in the A, now is our chance to get out, and work closer to home.
So what kind of jobs can I expect if I am able to pick?
RDO relief on the PM's in Queens? Extra list? Anyone have any ideas?
Im thinking of crossing over as well. When is the deadline for the G2?
"Crossing Over with SubBus."
I think it's January 17th. Unfortunately, I may not be able to pick this time. I might have to wait another pick or two. But I'm hoping to transfer.
Not that I have any problems with the A division. It's great. I like the people, and I like most of the equipment. But the long commutes by train, or the tolls when I travel by car, are taking their toll on me. Extra List is terrible. I'd rather have a shitty job that pays just 8 hours, than do what I do now. These hours suck. 12n-9pm one day. 6p-2a the next. Then 6p-7a on the garbage train. Oh well, it's part of the job I guess.
Yes it is. I got the info via email. I saw the notice at work yesterday but did note the deadline. Where I live, the "North" section (A,C,J,L trains) would be perfect for me. I like the A divison, but going up to the Bx is getting to me as well. Especially during bad weather conditions. I barely got three days out of Bklyn this pick. Ill see what happens btwn now and Jan 17.
3 days out of Brooklyn is not so bad. But you'll have no problem getting 5 days on the A from what I hear. But remember this; you'll have to make announcements at every station in the B division. If you stay in the A, and get work on the 2 or 5 and 6 lines, the 142 does the work for you. Good luck.
Unless I go to the L which right now is about 80-85% R143s. But I dont see myself doing that line for 5 days. Im still deciding on it. I eventually will do the whole system.
I'll tell you, I really think I have a good shot at jumping to the B. So many "off the street" T/O's in the A div are afraid to make the move. And that will make it easier for me to make the jump.
They fear the many new lineups, and they are also under the impression that B division management is more strict. Ironically, these T/O's work the East side, and are not familiar with certain TSS's found on the West. God, I can't work the 7 or 1 lines without hearing stories about guys being written up by the same TSS's over-and-over. Truth be told, it's all the same system. NYCTA! People talk like it's entirely different entity.
Supervision in the B division is not as bad as people say.
If you do your job the way it's supposed to be done, and don't talk with a smart mouth, then you won't have to worry about them in the first place. I've been with the B division for almost 8 years and have only been written up once. And since I was indeed guilty of the violation, I swallowed my warning pill like a good boy.
I know what you mean about the TSS's on the 1 and 7 lines especially the 1 line. A certain TSS on the 1 line is not a fan favorite right about now. Anyhow, if I stay in the A itll be the westside. The eastside is ok but I dont want anything to do with the 6 line.
I know what mean. Thats one of my reasons for leaving the #1 Line. The #6 really is not that bad since it all R142A's.
Hold on one second. The 6 line is the only good thing about the East. It's all 142's, you're outdoors for a while, and management over there is great.
Plus, if you get hungry or tired between trips, you can run downstairs, grab something to eat, or get a cup of decent coffee. I wish I could say the same for Dyre and Woodlawn.
Oh man I'm glad too see I'm in good company being in the North but getting stuck in the A :-)
But at least at your position you get Brooklyn. I'm posting all in the Bronx and in TW/O you can't work anywhere you haven't posted. So until they post me in Brooklyn (and who knows when that will be) I won't see it.
I think its Jan 14 but I'm not sure. The only way I'll make the switch is if I can work the A,C lines out of 207 or 168 PM'S.
I believe you also got the B,D out out of the Bronx. The Q's out of 57St-7Av. Ask the Road Dogg about seniority over there. I believe he got one of the C jobs out of 168St.
That's correct, I do work one of the jobs on the C out of 168th Street this pick.
The good thing about the C line is that the work program never changes. Picks come and go but the C line's schedule always stays the same.
You'll definitely be able to pick something on the line on PMs. They are always two trips, during the week. Weekends are different. Unless you've got sufficient senority and can pick two trips, the three trippers are what will be left. Those are always backbreakers; so unless you don't mind doing them for 945 or 947, I'd opt to work the A out of 207th Street on the weekends.
The money looks good but if its a backbreaker then thats something different. Ill have to take a look at the borads and see what the deal is........
You'd be able to pick RDO/PM/QNS in my opinion.
You already know that it would involve OPTO on the G every Sat/Sun, but you've said that it wouldn't bother you. Not to worry, there will be a whole lot of those G jobs waiting. Those are always THE LAST to go.
Boy, Z, you sure know how to be a ray of sunshine on an otherwise cloudy day. LOL
I was just watching Travel Sick on comedy central, the host was going around Seoul Korea looking for the country's worst toilet. He goes into the subway looking for some bad toilets in the stations. Previously he had tried to eat a live Ocotopus, sampled dog, broken an inch thick board, played golf on the DMZ (which included using North Korea as a driving range), and sang kariyoke for his dinner.
He didn't find the disgusting toilet in the subway, but he did walk through some of the cars that Heypaul mentioned in a previous post. I forget the link, but they showed some of the same cars that were pictured both on the site. The final car was decorated in a toilet theme, complete with big brown human feces floating in a toilet scene on the wide-cab end. I'm not sure if new york exactly wants to follow that example for arts on transit.
And yes, he did find the most disgusting toilet. It was a squat-toilet affair that had seen some pretty poor aiming on the part of the users. Worst, to pass his challenge, he had to clean this toilet, that was pretty bad.
Some pre-Chrystie questions here for railfans of the mid 1960's:
1. Did the R-32's run on any IND lines or the Brighton QT prior to late 1967?
2. Had any of the Bway/Bklyn lines featured letters on their roll signs, or did they still have the numerical designations if the trains were made up of R-16's or 27's???
Tony
I believe the answer to that is that there were no R32s on the IND before the Chrystie opening. The Brighton R32s used for the Q went to the D and the West End R32s used for the T went to the B and AA (when B wasn't running). The R27s had only letter route designations. The R16s had the number designations for B'way B'klyn.
I don't post very much, but I wish everyone happy holidays.
Jose
The 32's did run on the D right before the opening, I read, to familiarize the crews.
The Eastern Div. still used the numbers, and with the southern div. (low) numbers replaced by letters, it kind of became contiguous with the IRT numbers (IRT:1-8; BMT East: 10-16. though 8 was probably not reassigned to 3rd Ave. until Chrystie, and it didn't appear on the trains. 10-16 weren't used on maps either.)
The BMT East letters were in place on the signs, though, and while J/JJ, L/LL and M we are familiar with, KK was allotted for the #14 to Canal. Of course, by the time it was actually used, this route had been sent through the other Chrystie link to 6th Av.
1. Did the R-32's run on any IND lines or the Brighton QT prior to late 1967?
I was only 10 at the time but I recall that the QT was almost always R30's or 27s... However on the day before the switch to Christie - the QT was running and it was all R32's that day. It is something that stuck in my memory since only the T and Q ran 32's back then... Then the next day Astoria got the pffffffft!! RR.... sigh....
Pre-Chrystie the TA still adhered to the BMT practice on Southern Division.Eastern Division equipment and separate fleets for the IND. There are some notable exceptions to this between the end of WWII and the advent of Chrustie (R1-9s, R10s "loaned" to the BMT, R16s "loaned" to the IND) but those were exceptions.
The R16s used numbers until Chrystie and were BMT Eastern Division cars. The R27s had letters from Day One and were BMT Southern Division cars. So the R16s used the numbers up to Chrystie and the R27s didn't run in the East.
Just a nitpick on my own answer, we still talk about the BMT Southern Division and Eastern Division, but strictly speaking, these became BMT Division, Easrern and Southern SECTION after Unification.
Now one could call them B1 division south and B1 division "NORTH" (the latter being grouped together with one part of the uptown IND, and the other remaining grouped together with the BMT south it was severed from)
Now one could call them B1 division south and B1 division "NORTH" (the latter being grouped together with one part of the uptown IND, and the other remaining grouped together with the BMT south it was joined to, then severed from)
I recall some occasional R32 trains on the QT prior to Christie st. Usualy rush hours only.
I also remember the QT ran 8 cars in rush hours, and 6 midday. They did cuts and adds in the CI station.
As I recall, the N, T, and Q trains used a mix of R32s and R27/30s. The QB/QT and RR were normally all R27/30s, with an occasional R32 seen on the QB/QT. The D was all R1-9s, while the E and F used a mix of R1-9s and R38s. A was normally R10s exclusively.
In 1968, first year after the Chrystie changeover, this what I remember:
A: R10s with a few R1-9s.
AA\B: Mostly R32s, a few R1-9s and R10s.
D: Mostly R32s with some R1-9 sets that looked out of place on the Brighton Line in Brooklyn.
E and F: R1-9s and R38s. When the R40s arrived in 1968 first ones were on the F.
EE: R1-9s exclusively
N: R27/30s, R32s and some R38s.
RR: Mostly R16s that had paper signs for the south terminal (95th St) since the normal roll signs must have omitted this designation.
QB: R27/30s
QJ: R27/30s with a few R16 holdovers.
One thing that happened when Chrystie St opened was that R16s started mixing in the same trains with R27/30s. Prior to this, with the R16s on the Eastern division and the R27/30s on the Southern division, they never were mixed.
-- Ed Sachs
I remember that in the first years after Chrystie was opened, the new Brighton D line used at least 30% R1-9's. More during rush hour and probably none on the weekend and few if any overnight.
This is just my memory, not any official stat, but I did ride the Brighton out of Sheepshead Bay often, and I watched the trains from the walkway along the tracks over the Belt Parkway crossing even more.
I do not remember what was prominent at Sea Beach prior to 11/67. Can anyone (such as #4 Sea Beach Fred) let me know what Sea Beach used during 1967 before Nov? All that I remember is riding R32 cars on the N.
What about NX? Wasn't that an R27 line?
It's funny you asked. I rode the NX several times strictly for railfan purposes only to ride on the middle tracks of the Sea Beach and I have no recollection whatsoever what car they used! I guess the novelty of riding the express tracks was so great that it didn't matter at the time what I was riding in.
this came up maybe a year back. photos were posted showing a variety 27, 3-, 38. And I too rode at least once have no memory of cars.
Does anybody out there have the old schedule for the "NX" line. For instance, were there 4 or 5 NX trains that ran 10-12 minutes apart??
Tony
I can fill in some blanks:
GG - R-4/6/7
HH - R-6/7
QJ - R27/30, sometimes in mixed consist with R16.
That practice stopped when the R16s went to RR service.
JJ - Mixed: R27/30 and R16 (service ended early 68).
KK - R7a/9
LL - R7a/9, with the last of the BMT Standards
M - R7a/9, with the last of the BMT Standards
MJ - Q
RJ - R27/30 (service ended early 68)
wayne
Once they started to use the R-27/30s on the BMT's Southern division, the letters started to go into effect. By 1969 the numbers were effectively eliminated, though you still saw the numbers from time to time on the roll signs of the R-16s, perhaps as late as the 1980s.
#3 West End Jeff
Honestly, I dont recall any number designations still used in the '70's and 80's on the Eastern Division. I DO recall the R-16's still using "JJ" or "QJ" for the "J" trains though. TOny
I haven't head much about this happening, but has it happened before in NYC?
It tends to happen when folks get fustrated or management acts to replace the strikers.
Most union workers know the difference between doing something to get management's attention vs. doing something distructive or dangerous to the riding public.
Sorry but this is going to be shorter than originally intended since everything i typed earlier decided to disappear.
After 20 years I revisited the stub ends at Pitkin Yard today (12/13). I can comment on some of the things i have read or misread here over the past few weeks.
The cutouts for Tracks A7 and A8 extend about 200 feet beyond the present yard leads. The benchwall ends about five feet short of the bulkhead, and the duct work steps down in a sort of staircase. The bulkhead is of cinder blocks, not the solid concrete ususally associated with IND bulkheads. Interest has certainly been stirred up about this bulkhead; one can see (1) a smashed cinderblock, and (2) the beginnings of a hole being dug under the bulkhead, with the shovel still in place.
Only vestiges of the tracks that were here originally remain: ballast, some ties, signal boxes and pedestals, third rail junctions, reverse home signal [A7-2 (X66)], etc. The current signal prints, originally dated November 1964, indicate that switches 65 and 67 beyond H/S A7-5 (X70) have been removed, although their relays remain in service in the tower. These switches would have diverted trains towards the bulkhead. The spike holes can still be seen in the ties, which were, in some cases, shifted when the area was reconfigured. There is no pile of sand in front of the bulkhead.
The rails on the current Track A7 were produced in March 1947. I am looking at the drawing for relay case A8-3Z, located at stationing 2+90 within the stub end, produced by the Board of Transportation, New York City Transit System, IND. Div, Engineering Bureau. The case wiring diagram for a contact rail indicator under contract S-44 and S-45 was approved on September 19, 1947. The original prints were produced on January 28, 1949. Track A8 is designated as the East Bound Track.
Some pictures (darkish at times) are available at http://briefcase.yahoo.com/metro_ny look in the folder marked Pitkin Yard.
You mentioned tracks designated Eastbound and Westbound. I've seen B.O.T. prints for the same area with all nomenclature E/W and not N/S. Why was this done, was the IND originally and E/W railroad?
"I've seen B.O.T. prints for the same area with all nomenclature E/W and not N/S. Why was this done, was the IND originally and E/W railroad?"
We'd have to get out hands on more old prints from throughout the system before we can decide that one.
Nobody knows off the top of their heads?
I was reading in todays Daily News, that, the MTA wants to prepose a third track to for quicker service from JFK to lower Manhattan,I dont think its such a good idea, This line is just too slow as it is, even though, its one of my favorite lines.I thought this might of better and even a cheaper idea, why dont the MTA have a "loop spur" from the A line run through the airport, and come back to the line and run into Manhattan.Plus with a third track you can only run one train in one direction duhh!!I think you can do the same thing with loop service with the F and E line also. The A, E and F all have 4 track systems. Any suggestions?
Here's the Daily News story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/43340p-40853c.html
Love it. They can afford to build a third track but they can't afford a TWU raise. Ayup ...
Get a grip.....
One thing brings in revenue
the other thing takes revenue
The project will be financed. - muni bonds
You're absolutely right. Selling bonds is free money. Sorry, forgot about the money fairy. :)
How much will it cost to build a single track down Jamaica Avenue?
N Bwy
nice to see you back... havent seen you around for a while.
Thank you sir... Glad to see you as well.
N Bwy
Never Happen....
People at the Daily News have been smoking newsprin, and inhaling printer's ink again.
They never even mentioned building a single track down Jamaica Avenue after Cypress Hill which will made a BIG difference..
N Bwy
Sounds like a solution for the capacity problem on Queens Blvd, but not as useful as airport access. A single express track going into Manhattan in the morning and out in the evening will only accomodate half the airport traffic, since airport traffic goes both ways in both rush hours.
Many subtalkers have proposed renovating the abandoned LIRR/Rockaway ROW between Howard Beach and the LIRR Mainline in Rego Park. And I'd have to agree with them.
But discussing all this stuff is about as useful as discussing the 2nd Ave subway. Neither proposal will happen in our lifetime.
Actually, if they were to use the federal Lower Manhattan money, this one could go. The stole my idea off Subtalk!
First of all, the J/Z Archer Avenue connection runs through the LIRR yard, so it wouldn't be hard to tie in a couple of tracks from the LIRR platform.
You'd run the third track down Jamaica Avenue and extend it on Jamaica Avenue, avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Next stop after Jamaica -- Broadway Junction, where Woodhaven, Cypress Hills, and Richmond Hill riders could transfer.
You'd use the existing 3rd track west of there, using a new flyover at Myrtle Avenue to avoid slowing down the express. Next stop after Broadway Junction -- Marcy Avenue. Then onto Manhattan.
You could have six "J" trains local from Jamaica, six "M" trains local from Metropolitan -- and 12 to 18 "Z" trains express to/from Jamaica. It would be pretty quick.
I always liked the idea of adding a third track to the Jamaica El. I know they had discussed that a few years back but I believe community opposition killed the plan.
Your plan sounds good, except in addition to some kind of "flyover" at Myrtle, you would also need one at Cypress Hills and Broadway Junction. The express track would have to run high above through the middle of the Cypress Hills station to avoid an at grade crossing of the Manhattan Bound local track there. It could continue west from there as a single track along Jamaica Avenue until BJ. At BJ it would again have to be raised above the Manhattan Local track to regain it's position in the middle for the Broadway Junction Station.
At BJ it would again have to be raised above the Manhattan Local track to regain it's position in the middle for the Broadway Junction Station.
Wouldn't that cause problems with the 14th St - Canarsie Line?
There is an extinsting structure which ends a just west and above Alabama ave. this was to be an express track that was never completed. All they have to do is tie into this structure and it will go right down to bj on the express track
Running it down the Jamaica El is just a reinvention of the JFK Express, substituting Jamaica Av an Broadway for Fulton Street. That didn't work, this won't either, to say nothing of completely incompatible technology.
The loop spur idea is a very good one. I would also consider extending the Astoria Line to LaGuardia Airport and the running that line south to JFK and then it connects with the the "A" train line somewhere in Queens.
#3 West End Jeff
If the TWU really wanted to convince the riders that they were on the same side, then threatening a strike is playing right into their opponents' hands. As you see, you've turned half the board against you.
Alternatives?
1) Refuse to collect fares (buzz people through, let them ride the bus for free), then argue in court that it really isn't a strike in the sense that the Taylor Law outlaws -- a critical threat to the public.
2) Block the highways and bridges into Manhattan, screwing the swells. The TWU's own customers would be unaffected.
The Pols are looking for people to blame for their own decisions. Why do you think the economic impact of a strike is being over-estimated?
"Refuse to collect fares"
That's insubordination, grounds for firing, which I believe is the one thing the Taylor Law doesn't permit management to do.
"Block the highways and bridges into Manhattan"
That is a fairly serious misdemeanor. Political protestors who do it don't usually get serious punishment (except in southern states or when the feds are involved), but if you are doing it to increase your pay check the judge could get pretty stern.
("Refuse to collect fares" That's insubordination, grounds for firing, which I believe is the one thing the Taylor Law doesn't permit management to do. "Block the highways and bridges into Manhattan" That is a fairly serious misdemeanor. Political protestors who do it don't usually get serious punishment (except in southern
states or when the feds are involved), but if you are doing it to increase your pay check the judge could get pretty stern.)
The existing judges ruling permits draconian fines and firings. The question of what punishment is imposed comes down to who is now against you. Vandalism and sabotage (seems to be already happening) and/or a strike is a declaration of war against you front line supervisors, the police, and the riding public. Blocking the highways only bothers the police, refusing to collect fares bothers none of the above.
...Blocking the highways only bothers the police...
What about those little things like emergency vehicles - police cars, fire trucks and ambulances.
(What about those little things like emergency vehicles - police cars, fire trucks and ambulances.)
They are based in the borough they serve. If the bridges to Manhattan were blocked, they'd get around easier. Emergency vehicles are something to worry about if the subways shut down and the bridges AREN't blocked.
Larry, wouldn't the traffic back up like hell onto the local streets if the bridges/tunnels were blocked, thus impacting emergency vehicles?
(Larry, wouldn't the traffic back up like hell onto the local streets if the bridges/tunnels were blocked, thus impacting emergency vehicles?)
At first yes, but not for long, as people went elsewhere.
Has anyone noticed that City crews are quietly putting down rubberized pavement on the streets above major subway routes? The reason is this: Mayor Mike, being a businessman. knows his history--during the Great Epizootic, in which there were insufficient horses to pull horsecars, teams of the unemployed were hired to pull horsecars. It didn't work too well--I guess people didn't like working for oats, hay and carrots.
But there is an enormous reserve of energetic healthy humans padding their way along City streets anyway for NO PAY--joggers! So let's get the old omnibuses out of the City museum and make the Mikey Marathon a road running event! When the joggers see that they have those shiny new rubberized tracks to run on, instead of nasty old pavements, they'll happily run the new courses. They'll certainly follow the "track" wherever it goes, and we can give them beepers for traffic light priority. They'll stop at regular stations where they'll get brioche and Evian water.
Jogger Rapid Transit lives! The only thing I haven't figured out yet are operating the switches...
Assuming that the average transit worker makes $45K per year, a 3/3/3 contract would cost $47.3 million per year for three years.
Gee, imagine that. The city would have to spend that amount of money EVERY 5 DAYS in the case of a transit strike. We would lose that amount in education aid for every 8 days of a transit strike. According to Mayor Bloomberg, a transit strike would cost 2-6 years of that wage increase PER DAY. The new AMTRAK station up in Rensselaer, New York cost 1 year of this contract. Just for kicks, a brand new 747 goes for more than this contract is worth over a 3 year period. And I'm sure the 747 won't move as many people.
Boy, if you didn't see why the transit workers were upset before, now you understand. The wage increase they are expecting to get is less than 5% of this year's MTA budget deficit ($1B) and less than 3% of NEXT year's MTA deficit ($1.7B).
If you search really hard in Albany, I'm sure you can find that money STASHED in a CLOSET! :D
Bruno's already hit up the closet to build ANOTHER train station in Saratoga ... Gotta love it though, state and city's broke and Bruno's going to build yet another p*nis in his own honor. But clearly there's mad money still around, just not any for TWU. :)
The NY Times today reported that the Port Authority is going to shift some cargo to Albany. For once, this seems to make semi-sense, even though our favorite senator has something to say about it.
NY Times article here (Free subscription required)
Wowsers ... Albany isn't even Senator Joey's district - so his comments on it all demonstrate who's REALLY running the state. I'm trying to figure out how Joey's going to scam this one though. There isn't much rail service there other than the CP "Kenwood Yard" which has been severed from the Selkirk Mainline somewhat owing to one of the bridges having failed a few years ago. There IS *one* track from there to Selkirk which is sorta OK ... but yeah, we could use a bit more pollution. Wonder where they're going to park the trucks though. Reason I mention this is that the Port of Albany is serviced by Pearl Street, which is pretty small and trucks would have to cross that one CP track to get TO the port. Problem is that track is usually blocked with a train and that prevents the trucks from getting in and out of the port.
But I won't argue with the good senator. Apparently there'll be funding for hovercraft or dirigibles or something. :)
obvious solution--divert ships to Balto and Philly. I see NO good resaon to run deepdraft ocean vessels u to Albany. just more 'bilgewater' further inland.
obvious solution--divert ships to Balto and Philly. I see NO good resaon to run deepdraft ocean vessels u to Albany. just more 'bilgewater' further inland.
Shipping lines don't like using Balitmore because it's several hours' sailing time from the open ocean. Philadelphia has the same problem too, though to a lesser extent.
and the sailing yime to Albany? 'Cause you know the next shoe will be "oh, we forgot, we have to dredge the channel deeper for these boats.' Do I see an end run for our friends at genius electric here?
There's even more potential fun. First off, the "facilities" at Albany are highly lacking (though the locals would LOVE to see it happen), there's the salt water line near Beacon where NYC gets its "emergency drought supply" of water from the Hudson when needed and if the salt line comes up to the intake, that's done. And yes, the water depth would also be an issue, and some channel dregdging WOULD be needed. The Hudson is MIGHTY narrow up here too, more like a creek.
But the really big one is the lack of existing railroad and truck traffic infrastructure - this would be a pretty big project if it really happens. Guess the state isn't so broke after all.
actually there is a history. forty years ago (you know, last week for us over fifty guys), a non blood uncle of mine did '1st engineer gigs' on Hudson River trips of ocean going ships. It was an easy gig where his alcoholic behavior didn't get him fired as fast and the crews coming in from the high seas were glad to book off as soon as they hit NY..
Ergo, there must hav once been facillities for trans shipment albeit obsolete even if extant.
There is a yard at the Port of Albany - they DO have at least one 50 tonner. It fell into horrible disrepair and DID get track replacements this past year. But the section in question is mostly oil tanks and "TankTrain (tm)" along with one or two warehouses. All of this then empties out onto a SINGLE TRACK. One end north to the Kenwood yards (6 tracks I think going to two north onto ratty CP track) and ONE track south to the Selkirk yard that's mighty curvy with a 3MPH restriction for the couple of miles that it runs. That's going to need some SERIOUS work. The roads in the vicinity will need some serious work too in order to handle trucks.
As far as floaters go, I'm sure it won't require all THAT much work, but definitely not sufficient for today's ocean-going container ships. I did read BARGES, and that would work ... should be interesting to see how well thought out this is ...
>>how well thought out this is ... <<
surely you jest
Needed to be said. You know how much faith I have in our (ahem, kaff) "leaders" ... :)
Do the tracks leading away from the Albany port facilities have the capability to handle double-stacks?
MANY low bridges. Interstates ... like I said, I'm interested in seeing where this braincramp goes. It won't be cheap, that's for sure.
I think they are looking at 5% over 3 and they are worried about everyone else getting that. Local 100 is a fairly small union.
I think 12% over three years is good. They is fine be me if they don't cut Health coverg and make us give back 2.3% for a penction.
Robert
I'd love to have 12% over three years. I haven't had that much over the last five, plus my healthcare contributions have gone up considerably (they are DOUBLING this coming year, don't yet know what the raise will be), making the effective rate per year an average of -1.8% since 1997 before factoring in inflation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A rate of 3,3,3 would mean that transit workers (and others following the pattern) would become vastly better off relative to those in the private sector. This would require tax increases and service cuts in addition to those likely to occur in any event.
Everything is relative. I think public employee wages should be indexed to the average private sector wage, and go up and down accordingly.
If that was the case, we'd owe them some serious money. :)
Hey, that sounds just like my last low raise and my health care costs going up like crazy. Is this so hard to understand that this is the scene all over the place. Grin & bear it!
Chuck Greene
Of course I would like 12% better than 5-7, DUH. I just don't think this is in the cards.
One food for thought. Any raise in transit salaries will probably result in layoffs in the near future.
Transit fares are going up but the public will not accept a $2.25 transit fare.
Looking at what Connecticut is offering it's unions to close the state budget deficit, the MTA's offer was very generouse
"After a month of angry recriminations, the Connecticut state employees' unions and the Rowland administration resumed negotiations yesterday on union contract concessions that could help alleviate the state's budget problems and, perhaps, reverse the layoffs of 3,000 government workers."
The MTA could easily layoff a few thousand workers and not miss a beat. Concidering the average MTA worker makes more then the average worker in most state and city government, concider yourselg lucky hte MTA's first offer was not layoffs
Ugh, could you please give me even a semi-educated guess as to where these "few thousand" people are currently working that they could be laid off and the MTA "...would not miss a beat"?
Maybe in the management ranks?
Ugh, could you please give me even a semi-educated guess as to where these "few thousand" people are currently working that they could be laid off and the MTA "...would not miss a beat"?
All of the station agents, for a start. Many, maybe most, of the conductors, depending on how quickly OPTO can be expanded. No doubt some managerial layers. Probably others too, although I don't know enough about behind-the-scenes operations to know for sure.
I'll agree OPTO offers SOME oppurtunities for savings in manpower and dollars, but I think it is mostly applicable to say nights and weekends and then only on some lines. I don't think 500 and 600 foot trains lend themselves to OPTO. As far as station agents go, I thought that was already settled in court. The value of station agents was recongized and they are staying. Again, SOME booths most likely can be shut down. In both cases I think the number of postions you can resonable reduce (with due consideration to safety and operational efficency) in is the dozens, maybe reaching the low three figures. Even then I think you need to be careful with the number of live humans you remove from the system. Even the DC system has station agents on duty in their automated stations.
Lastly, I would hope that once the number of beans have been counted and the heads to be lopped off have been totaled, let's let attrition do the job!
I don't imagine that a 3/3/3 settlement is likely. That would be giving too much to the TWU.
(I don't imagine that a 3/3/3 settlement is likely. That would be giving too much to the TWU.)
The only way I see the TWU agreeing to a zero is if management and non-reps had their wages cut by two-percent, in addition to having all the givebacks the TWU gets. That would show management was serious.
I'd rather get 0/2/7
0/2/7 would be more than acceptable to me.
This way, the MTA would get the first year golden goose-egg that they so covet and the TWU would get a decent total percentage over the life of the contract.
It would also give the MTA time to sort out it's financial difficulties.
I am a train buff since the age of three, and I was born in 1985 so I never knew about the transit strike that occured in 1980, and I remember how close to a strike we came three years ago, but with giuliani's iron fist they never had a chance. Now I know the stats, the TWU wanted 24% over three years, and the MTA wanted a pay freeze the first year then the raises that they should recieve should be payable from new rules. Given with that, and current fiscal situation, the TWU's demand was too much. I think the fact that they saw Bloomberg and not Giulani made them think that they can bully the. The TWU spokesperson told Bloomberg to Shut Up, personally, if it was Giuliani, we know that he would've never said that to him. Now the offer stands at 16%, which is still to much. I understand that they want a raise, we all do, but even 16% is too much concidering what is going on, I say 12% will be what they get over three years. I think also that if they wanted to strike after new years it would make them look better cause it would show that they are compassionte to everyone around the holiday season. Now with the New York State Supreme Court's ruling saying now that it is illegal to strike, will they still do this and create absolute hell. Now if they strike the finical situation would be worse as the city might lose over 100,000,000 dollars per day. If given the situation doesn't favor both sides at all, concerning the time of year and the way people will be affected. If they strike, everyone loses, if they lower their demand to 12% then we can see that happening, until then the TWU with the publicity campign that bloomberg and the MTA are doing will make them look like their Greedy Bastards. Unfair, but this is politics whether we like it or not.
The TA's offer is actually 0,-2.3,0.
They want a to increase the pension plan contribution and the cost of the medical benefits.
As for productivity bonuses it is not the worst thing BUT the TA is demanding so many work rule changes right now there is not any productivity left to trade for. Then there is the issue of what to trade for. on most midnight jobs the breaks are padding for management to cook the running times to preserve their bonuses. The work program makes it seem like I get all these breaks but in reality I am working an extra 45 minutes a day on an 8 hour shift, there IS nothing left for me to trade.
Federal workers are getting 3.1% and we get a paycut? Then there is the inflation factor which is at about 3%. The offer on the table works out to be something like -6% a year (not fully compounded).
Chris,
One point I think you missed is that the 24% the union put out was thier STARTING POINT. When a union and employer begin negotiations, both START with a number they know they will never get. I agree that the 24% would be a very large raise (but as I have said in other posts, the TWU played the "good citizen" a number of times in the past during other fiscal emergencies. They accepted contracts that provided much needed cost containment for the cash strapped city and state. But when the good times came in parts of the 80's and most of the 90's the MTA did not reward the TWU for thier restraint and cooperation during those tough times) and possibly might reek havoc on the MTA budget (but again, the MTA had a surplus last year, revenue is up this year; where did the money go?). Yet you must not lose sight that the 24% put out by the union was contered by the MTA's 0/minus 2.3/0 (and as Wannabe1 points out in his post in this thread "... and we get a paycut? Then there is the inflation factor which is at about 3%. The offer on the table works out to be something like -6% a year [not fully compounded]."). I find it interesting that you made mention of the union's opening number of 24% and their current number of 16% (I thought the union was at 6/6/6 currently which would be 18%) but made no mention of the insulting figures the MTA has put forward (but then again, maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, management is asking for ONLY ONE direct pay cut, so maybe I'm being too hard on them). I think a reasonable person would agree that the unions figures of either 24% or 18% are no more unreasonable than the MTA's offer of a net of at least MINUS 2.3% (and that is before we even figure in increased co-pays ect.)
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, it is very commendable that someone of your age takes such an active interst in the subway in general and important topics like the issues at stake in such an important labor contract. But I would ask you to take on honest look at both sides and the merits therein.
Last contract our pension cotribution was lower 2.3% now the TA wants to play Indian giver with it. The TA's first offer would cost me $2000 in take home pay the first year of the contract and as medical cost go up so my net pay would go down.
The produtivity payments are a joke, if they are met (what are the paramaters)we will negotiate a raise if the money is available. Sounds like take on more duties and sorry we still have no money.
Passing through the new black tiled exit from the north end of the northbound platform at 49th St, I saw signs directiong to the Rockefeller Ctr. concourse. I was surprized, but sure enough there was a new passage behind a glass door, but it was closed. I couldn't exactly figure where it came out on the 6th Av. side, as there was no new passageway there.
I found it was only open weekdays from 8-6, so it took a few days for me to get to go throught it. It was built apart of the new building on 7th and 49th that is covered with LED displays. The first section has some sort of art displays on the wall, then it makes a left turn, (so you can't see beyond there) then a right, and another left and right, and becomes a long hall with some shops and an immigration office. Then it leads to the right into the 1251(?) Av. of the America's underground lobby (I kind of figured it must havwe connected to that), which leads to the concourse next to Burger King.
So now you can get from the Broadway line to Rockefeller Ctr. indoors, and from 7th Av. to 5th Av. (there was already the extensive passage from the pedestrian space running between 6th and 7th Aves. that almost reaches the Cre Office)
Too bad Federated Dept stores, or whoever bought and runs the Manhattan Mall wouldn't maintain the 33rd St. passage like that. Once again, it would make a great connection to the newly revitalized Penn Station corridor. If these buildings around Rockefeller Ctr. can, then it can be done.
(So now you can get from the Broadway line to Rockefeller Ctr. indoors, and from 7th Av. to 5th Av. (there was already the extensive passage from the pedestrian space running between 6th and 7th Aves. that almost reaches the Cre Office).
I believe it would be worth the money to dig out a connection from Rock Center to Grand Central. It would be worth at least double the proposed connection from the former WTC to the Fulton Street hub. The ability to walk cross-town without waiting at stoplights would be a real amenity.
Sites like St. Patrick's Cathedral or Saks are not going to have new buildings put up, so it would have to be under the street/sidewalk and would be difficult and costly to the city. But I do love those underground midtown mazes! I was fascinated the first time I explored 41st St. with all the ramps and turns. I always wished it would be extended to 6th.
A passageway from Rock Center to Grand Central wouldn't have to be very long. It would run from 49th and 5th (across from Saks) to 47th and Madison, where the north end access to GC has an entrance.
I found it was only open weekdays from 8-6, so it took a few days for me to get to go throught it. It was built apart of the new building on 7th and 49th that is covered with LED displays.
Lehman Brothers.
Yeah, I couldn't remember the name or address (751 7th Av. Was back over there today)
When they were starting it, the passageway was out of fare control. Is this still the case?
Yes. It's right in the stairway to the street. It is apart of the office buildings, not the subway.
How and where is the cutoff that the Metro North trains if a strike were to occur would use to get to Yankee Stadium for the shuttle????
Anyone have any maps??/
Metro North's Hudson line cuts trough the Parking lot of Yankee stadium. the platforms are built allong controlled siding (riverside) leading to new Highbridge yard.
Now I wonder if, now that the platforms are built, they might not use them for service to Yankee games next year?
Why does the LIRR have a Shea Stadium stop, but not MNR at
Yankee Stadium?
Lmao, all they are is little wooden podiums with stairs, door's will line up with them and people can board. Nothing to accomodate Yankee Game crowds.
Strikebound park&ride crowds will DWARF Yankee crowds.
Since a strike would reek pure economic havoc on the city, the MTA is about to announce how it will operate the subways on Monday morning. All new R142 and 143 cars that are not being overhauled, will have their NOBTO system energized. No On Board Train Operator relies on a video camera aimed out the front window and another aimed down the length of the train for door operation. These two cameras and the train console display will be transmitted to operators in India & Malaysia who will operate the trains remotely.
The older equipment will require on board operators. Ads will be placed on local radio and television stations about a hiring program which will rely on a 30 minute on-line training video which will prepare temporary workers to operate the trains Monday morning. No paperwork is needed for these seasonal workers as they will be paid in cash at the terminal for each successful trip that they complete.
Heypaul! Where can I sign up!? Please! I want the video! I wanna drive a train!
christopher... keep tuned to the radio and television tonight... you'll be given a web address where you can watch the 30 minute training video and then take the 10 question true/false/maybe qualifying test... i've put the word out at headquarters to give you a choice run on the lex... just don't let any railfans into your cab when you're operating...
it's okay if you work on your 2nd ave plans during station stops, but keep your eye on the road when the wheels are turning... good luck...
This strangely reminds me of a recurring dream.
I'm on the platform at Franklin Avenue Brighton Line impatiently waiting for the train which has just gone the wrong way on the Fulton Street Line and had to be backed over the crossings.
The train finally comes in and Guard Turner tells me "Paul, Billy Luciano is sick--he's been working all day and can't take the train any further. You know the controls, take 'er out, will you? It's a strike situation and nobody will care. It's only a short run to Brighton Beach..."
Fortunately, you're saved at the last moment by Unca Dougie who smiles broadly and flashes his handle, saying "I've got it. Boowahhahhah ..." :)
PAUL WAKE UP!!!! Don't take out that fleet of Gate Cars!!! It's only a dream!!!
:)
All kidding aside, during the "anything goes" '80s, a private group decided they could make a profit running the Princeton Shuttle by having students and railfans run the line for the fun of operating a real choo-choo.
It was also suggested that some suburban-to-city buses (the ones where the bus could be parked in the city all day) could qualify some of the commuters as bus drivers and could they drive their regular buses to and fro their homes in exchange for free commutation and coffee and doughnuts.
It was also suggested that some suburban-to-city buses (the ones where the bus could be parked in the city all day) could qualify some of the commuters as bus drivers and could they drive their regular buses to and fro their homes in exchange for free commutation and coffee and doughnuts.
Hey, we did that kind of thing in North Carolina for years... except they were school buses and the drivers were 16 or 17 years ago. And of course no doughnuts... just minimum wage... but the kids only had to be paid for the time from when they left their driveway until they parked it at school, no minimum hours or shuttle-home time for the split shift. That practice ended in the late '80s because the kids tended to have their minds on anything but their driving; although using adult drivers ended up costing the school systems (in wages) more than three times what it did to use the students, the decrease in liability payouts turned out to save significantly more than that, and the average adult driver stays with the system for seven years, so training costs are significantly reduced as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kitsap Transit, the transit agency for a peninsula just west of Seattle, on the far side of puget sound. Their Worker/Driver Ptogram was inherited from a World War II navy program to get people to and from the shipyards at Bremerton.
That's really interesting. Thanks for pointing me to that.
I thought the 100th caller was the one to get the job
No On Board Train Operator relies on a video camera aimed out the front window and another aimed down the length of the train for door operation
Until the automatic camera is in operation, I volunteer my services to coordinate the video gathering portion of "Plan ArNINE" in the public interest.
Please note that during this time, if anyone sees an individual with a reflective vest saying "official transit photographer", contact the authorities immediately!
--Mark
There are several strange aspects of the city's strike contingency plans:
1. You can't enter any part of Manhattan by car weekdays without 4 people in the car. What if you live in Manhattan and commute (or otherwise travel) outside of Manhattan by car? You leave Monday morning with just you in the car. You can never get home again!
2. The restrictions drop to 2 people in the car after midnight Friday till midnight Sunday. Why not lower the restrictions at 6 pm Friday, so couples can get to Friday night shows by car? Surely there woundn't be that many people clogging up the roads on a Friday night -- not many more than on a Saturday night.
3. There is a loophole for entering Mahhattan for through traffic on I-95 (Cross-Bronx--Alex. Hamilton Bridge--G. Washington Bridge). You can cross these bridges as long as you keep going through Manhattan and out the other side. How will this be enforced?
4. Several parkways/expressdways are HOV (4 people only) both ways during the week, e.g., H. Hudson Pkway, LIE, Bruckner. Why both ways? It's enough if you keep cars from entering Manhattan on these roads. Leaving Manhattan, only the same cars that went in will leave. In the Boroughs, why not let all cars enter in direction leaving the city, at least in reverse peak hours? For example, I can't enter the HH Pkway. in Riverdale going north to leave the city in the morning at any time during the week -- how does this help traffic?
1. You can't enter any part of Manhattan by car weekdays without 4 people in the car. What if you live in Manhattan and commute (or otherwise travel) outside of Manhattan by car? You leave Monday morning with just you in the car. You can never get home again!
My understanding is that you can't ENTER or LEAVE without 4. People at work were asking me if I could pick them up and drive into the city on Monday - I refused because I figured that if one of them found another way home then I would be stuck sleeping in my car for a week. Sort of like the song about Charlie but in a car instead of the Boston MTA ;-)
I did offer to take anyone to the ferry dock though -
"What if you live in Manhattan and commute (or otherwise travel) outside of Manhattan by car? You leave Monday morning with just you in the car. You can never get home again!"
You have to pick up hitchikers to get back in (at the base of the Third Ave. Bridge, e.g.). I bet there will be plenty.
Here's the MBTA Press Release.
Ha! Bombardier and Connex. Forget about a fan, that shit's going to come rocketing out of a fire hose.
lol quite - Connex were so pisspoor that even our useless Strategic [sic] Rail Authority stripped them of one of their two franchises.
Here's the MBTA Press Release.
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
At Rhode Island, I boarded 4019, 4019 and 4018 were completely decorated for Christmas. The windows had murals painted on it, all the handrails and poles were wrapped with Christmas tree streamers, there were "toys for tots" and completely dressed christmas trees in open spaces of the trains, as well at sleigh on snow mockups, and icecicle lights dangling from the ceiling, the cars were completely dressed up.
On a slightly related note, I recall seeing some NYC express buses (I think those were the Orions with Coach seats) that had various Christmas decorations pasted on the windows during the Christmas season last year.
Get any pictures? I know they run these trains every year but I am never lucky enough to catch one. Also, I have yet to see a CAF car have a working interior display. How many times have you ridden them? I've been on them twice (only 2 sets out on one day) and saw one once at Gallery while waiting for the Yellow Line to the airport.
the christmas cars or the CAF cars? I only rode the christmas car once and today was my first time riding it, i wish i brought my camera but i didnt. At fort totten today, as i came down the stairs from the red line, I saw a greenbelt bound CAF train leaving. The next train that came (for Branch Avenue) was also a CAF train which i got on. I dont know what u mean by a "working interior display" The interior display was displaying "GREEN" and nothing but "GREEN" Arent they suppose to display station names also??
I never get the Xmas cars but I know they are around every year. I've been on the CAF cars twice (riding up and down the Green Line one day I got both sets running at one time or another) and taken pics of them one other time. They are susposed to display the next station and which side the doors will open, but as you may have already seen, all they did was this (on both sets):
I know we've discussed a lot about subway movies, but does anyone know of ant mistakes in the subway scenes of movies? If you do, tell us (the length and irrelevancy of the scene(s) doesn't matter).
How about showing a TTC (Toronto Subway) in a movie taking place in NYC? I think it was "Car 54 Where Are You?" I stopped the tape and was able to read the TTC Logo in the middle of the subway car.
Another had a movie legnth subway ride in a Low V but an outside shot had an R18 (or some much newer IRT ) exterior.
Many movies show the inside of one model and the outside of another. Even in subway stories, the characters were inside an R46 but the outside of the train showed an R38 for the same subway car.
I will leave the other to other sub-talkers.
Yes, the awful remake of the Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3, shot completely in Toront, making no attempt to disguise the H-1 cars.
75-footers on the IRT? Humbug! I'll retire to bedlam.
wayne
Maybe the prosucers of the remake of the "Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3" should retire to Bedlam. They had a few screws loose to begin with and many more came loose through the years.
#3 West End Jeff
75-footers on the IRT? Humbug! I'll retire to bedlam.
Yeah, every car on the IRT is 72 feet long!
Here are some on:
Money Train
Here's a transit related mistake someone found on one of the Star Trek movies of all places Click Here
Ok, I saw this movie once, forgot what it was. Some weird movie on SciFi. Anyway, I don't know if this is the guy that did the station in the movie, or he said "I don't live in NY but I'll model a station from NY based on the movie cuz movies are never wrong" :-)
"Delancy Street"
This is identical to the station in the movie. The train in the movie looked like that too.
Not only a poor represntation, It says, "Dalancey" instead of Delancey.
Not sure if that's the one, but there was one filmed in Sydney, Australia....cars had some round windows here and there.
I wonder how many times they get the signs mixed up when they shoot the movies on the subways? I also wonder if they have showed station names that do not exist in real life? etc.
#3 West End Jeff
Most unintentionally funny mistake in a subway themed movie:
In a scene near the end of 'Money Train' the T/O of the R-27/30 Redbirds (played by Bill Nunn) gets a radio call from Chief Patterson (Robert Blake) at the Command Center to by-pass all stops. Now, the T/O is operating his train properly with hands on controls, etc. However, he answers the radio with his LEFT HAND completely letting go of the deadman's control! BUT, the train continues moving at the same pace! I never noticed this until I viewed it recently and I was laughing my arse off!!! Gotta love it! Still, not as bad as 'Plan 9'...but funny nonetheless!
Maybe Heypaul wired up the cab on that one. :)
I wouldn't put it past him...
Just keep him away from 1689. Damned BMT types. :)
Shouldn't be a problem....he avoids Connecticut like it's plague territory...
If it weren't for Branford, so would I. Had to execute some complex road maneuvers to avoid New Haven, birthplace of ... you know. But clearly that cab in that hosejob of a movie had its stands reversed like 1227. Well, you know what happens when you grab hold of a "regulation controller stand" and go to reach for your ... ummm ... microphone if you're steeped in "wrongway BMT mode." Moo. :)
I posted some commuter train-related nitpicks on The Ice Storm. In addition to the ones whose titles are obvious, the one called "I Thought Extras Were Cheap" is also rail-related.
While they don't have anything to do with trains, I also posted the ones called "Location of Apartment," "A Curiously Long Drive," "Turkeys," and "Icy Windshield."
Inotice there is a comment there about octagonal highway-type stop signs "never being used in railroading".
Never say "Never". Have seen them at the ends of tracks in yards, and at locations where a stop is required in other places out here on the BNSF, SP and UP. Not mainline use, but in yards, and also on some shortline railroads.
In "The Yards", the plot is set in the NYCT subway yards, but for
some reason, the cars are actually the 1963-vintage LIRR/MNR coaches.
In Subway Stories (HBO Movie) the woman said that she would take the Brighton Line, but she got off at Prospect Park on F train in South Brooklyn (IND) station.
I know we've discussed a lot about subway movies, but does anyone know of any mistakes in the subway scenes of movies? If you do, tell us (the length and irrelevancy of the scene(s) doesn't matter).
In Die Hard With a Vengeance, a #3 train destroys the Wall St station. The station used was a set, since the real Wall St station has a significantly narrower platform. Also, they used a R30 in that movie (in the scene where Bruce Willis chucks the bomb out of the train, for a split second, you can see the rollsign reading "(C) Rockaway Park") though they portrayed it to be an IRT train.
And who can forget the remake of "The Taking of Pelham 123" that was shot in Toronto?
Those scenes were done in a completely fake subway in Los Angeles, California.
Notice the R27/30 cars also had an extra window on the end, as well as the sides? The real cars don't have left side end windows...or a corner passenger window in the left front corner.
Remember that TA "caution" Metrocard with the gray diagonal stripes that proclaims:
"WHY RUN FOR THE TRAIN? THERE'S ANOTHER ONE JUST LIKE IT ON THE WAY"
Well, there is a new one that looks just like it, the wording is different and proclaims:
"PLEASE, NO RUNNING IN THE STATION."
(Although we applaud your boundless energy and zest for living)
I bought this one at an MVM at Grand Central Terminal. There is a alcove with Metro North TVM's and two MVM's, located across from the Station Masters office and the Transit Museum Gift Shop. This card I bought from the left one. I bought another $3.00 card from the MVM on the right and got a Zagat "Babbo" card. Don't say I didn't warn you !
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder what the T/A will come up with next.
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks for the hot tip. I will try to get that Metrocard when i am in NYC in a week or so.
Maybe your MetroCard could have the message "Please Stand Clear Of The Closing Doors."
#3 West End Jeff
I have been working with my obsession on the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
Here is a look at what I built so far.
+ That *is* a six track mainline between 79th Street and the WTC.
+ As you can see, there are long express runs: it is designed to serve people from the outlying areas rather than those in-close.
+ The (5A) and (5B) lines run on a two track ROW under Grand Concourse but do not connect with the existing IND line.
+ The (5B) line shares Fulton Street, taking exclusive rights to the local tracks from Hoyt-Schermahorn to Cross Bay Parkway. The (E) runs express and continues out Linden Blvd to the county line, but as part of the 8th Avenue subway, is not shown.
+ Two major four-track tunnels are built, one at Pineapple Street, and the other at 79th Street.
Elias
I like the idea of a subway under Myrtle Avenue. It sure would provide service right through the center of Queens. It sure would have been useful to me when I lived in Ridgewood. And the section East of Wyckoff Ave never had any kind of subway service.
Some changes I would suggest though would be:
At the line just east of Wyckoff you have many stations close together, but then you go all the way from Cypress Hills Street to Cooper with no stations, and then from Cooper to 75th is only about 5 blocks, and then another wide gap all the way to Union Turnpike, then skipping Woodhaven Blvd, which really isn't any further from Union Turnpike than Cooper is to 75th.
For the section of the "Myrtle Subway" between Broadway and Jamaica Center, I would suggest:
-Broadway
-Wilson Ave
-Wyckoff Ave
-Cypress Ave
-Forest Ave
-Fresh Pond Road (platform running east of the intersection to allow for an exit further east at 64th Street or somewhere)
-66th Street (or some other street between Fresh Pond Road and Cooper Ave)
-Cooper Ave
-80th Street
-Union Turnpike
-Woodhaven Blvd (allows for bus transfers)
-109 Street
-Lefferts Blvd
-Sutphin/Archer
-Jamaica Center
I assume you have the line joining Archer after 121st Street (in your version) and using the Sutphin and JC Archer stations, when you mentioned those? If so, that is why I used Lefferts instead, to avoid confusion of having both the Jamaica Line and the Myrtle line have a 121st Street station after Sutphin.
Wow! Very generous wit Queens. Me like!!!!!!!!!
:-) Andrew
Very generous wit Queens. Me like!!!!!!!!!
Just wait until you see the other lines I'm planning!
Elias
Impressive.
How about going for a big time fantasy and divert the 5E down Main St or Union St, then Kissena Blvd and Parsons Blvd to Jamaica; and extend the 5H to Flushing then over the Whitestone Bridge as a QBx1 type of route to Co-op City?
divert the 5E down Main St or Union St, then Kissena Blvd and Parsons Blvd to Jamaica; and extend the 5H to Flushing
There *is* another service on Northern Blvd, that is not shown here, because it is part of the 9th Avenue Subway.
Elias
There *is* another service on Northern Blvd, that is not shown here, because it is part of the 9th Avenue Subway.
Can't find that one on your website... is this some new big idea? Care to tell us all about it?
THIS SUBWAY KICKS ASS MAN! Especially the service to Queens, my favorite borough!
Thanks, especially when you realize that those long express runs are at 80 mph!
It's about time someone brought Co-op city into the subway system.
Based on my inexpert opinion, it seems that the R68 (and R68A) and R143 are in a dead heat for quietest. The R142 and R142A aren't really that quiet, but then the IRT is just a noisy place. Everything squeaks and squeals going through the Lex at Union Square.
The noisiest would be any redbird--the ones on the Lex and Flushing were, for whatever reason, somewhat worse than those on 7th Ave. Perhaps they weren't as well maintained. But all were (and are) very noisy monsters. Apart from these, the 60-footers seem to generally be noisier than the 75-footers, with one exception: The R44. That thing carries on like a garbage truck!
Though not the noisiest, I've noticed that the R46 is surprisingly noisy. It doesn't deliver too many screeches, but it does produce a distinctive song of loud bumps an rattles and rings. It's not much quieter than the R32s it shares Queens Blvd with. I should say, though, that these noises are only really pronounced when you're outside the train. Inside they're not too bad at all.
:-) Andrew
I like wheel noise, the more the better - and right now the R32 and R38 are kings of wheel noise, followed by the Redbirds. Overall rattle and hum award goes to the remaining Redbirds (they were built noisy!), but for GOH cars, the R38 are the noisiest.
Oh, yes - one more thing - Wheel noise can be severe on the R142s, judging by the several I recently observed at Mott Avenue in the Bronx, one of the tightest of the tight curves. One bunch (7056-7065) were in especially fine voice. Singing Vultures!
wayne
I assume you mean the track switch where the 5 and the deuce meet on approach to mott, correct?
Yes, especially in the northbound direction. The wheel noise there is absolutely beautiful. The jughandle curve is very tight, I believe only about 5 chains (1 chain=22 yds=66 feet) radius.
wayne
When you're inside the R-142s, they are quieter than any of the other subway cars on the IRT. Outside of the cars may be a different natter though.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-143 has the exact same earsplitting brake squeal as the R-142A.
The R-33's on the 5 are the exact same R-33's that used to run on the 2.
I suspect your judgments are colored by factors of the lines themselves.
My opinion? They're all noisy, in different ways. Different people have different tolerances to different types of noise, so different people will have different preferences.
Different people have different opinions on your different opiions!
....any class car at Lexington's Union Square Station. :)
Or coming into Mott Avenue. Another good spot's Simpson Street; they haven't denatured that curve yet.
IRT cars have been notoriously wheelnoisy, going all the way back to the Lo-V's. The R21 and R22 had some of the worst wheel noise in the entire system.
Yes, the Union Square station gets pretty operatic at times. The most moosical? Redbirds, of course.
wayne
Also at East Tremont, where that tight curve is, right after the station
I think the slant 40's or the box 40's are the loudest cars in the system.. They also seem to rock more than the rest of them.
N Bwy
I guess you weren't asking an "all time" question, but IMO the BMT Standards, taking the totality of running gear noise, motor and brake noises and auxiliary noises (ventilation system, compressors, etc.) were probably the least noisy subway cars. And add another dimension to the issue of "noise," the kinds of noises the Standards made were less intrusive than most--none of the higher-pitched whines and whirrs that typified a lot of other (esp. newer) equipment.
When high speed compressor and Axiflow ventilation systems came in, subway cars became much noisier.
If you want to talk about all time noisiest cars, dont for get the R16's and the R27/30. Man they were loud, other than that, the R10's, R17's, and R21's, were pretty loud as well. If you think about it, most subway trains are loud!
Paul
Do you have any idea if the BMT Bluebirds lived up to their billing as being amongst the quietest?
No Jim, they were around when I was a little kid but I never rode one. I didn't even know they existed until they were out of service, but judging by the PCC trolleys (same technology) I would guess they were pretty quiet.
Paul, I think the Standards were quieter mostly because the doors between cars were always locked. The non-A/C IRT cars almost always had those doors open which brought in a lot of outside noise. I know the windows were open on Standards but that didn't bring nearly as much noise as the open storm doors.
Today's air-tight cars are very quiet as there is very little outside noise. A good example, even though we weren't talking about the LIRR is the new tri-levels. My biggest complaint about them (although most people feel that's its greatest plus) is they have no sound at all. It doesn't even feel you were on a train.
the LIRR is the new tri-levels. My biggest complaint about them (although most people feel that's its greatest plus) is they have no sound at all. It doesn't even feel you were on a train.
Yeah, I know just what you mean, Jeffrey.
My wife hates that too. She liked the old ex-electric cars that were on the diesels, but I didn't care for them too much. The one thing I DO miss about them was being able to stand on the back platform--there aren't too many places where you get any semblance of outdoor railroading any more.
One example of quiet that I forgot about was the old wooden gate cars. When they were stopped in a station, especially during the winter when they were all closed up, the silence was amazing. You only heard the wind blowing outside and the bang of the people open and closing the end doors and stamping up the aisle. That silence was broken by the ringing of bells and the growl of the motors.
Its been a long time since I was able to stand on that back platform. For at least the last 10 years of the old diesels they had an engine on both ends. But when you were able to stand on the open rear it was better than a railfan window, especially when the manual side doors were open also.
Another place I liked to stand on the old diesels was on the first car platform behind the locomotive. As a kid it was a great place to stand to get a free ride as no conductor ever bothered going there. You just had to be prepared for the crossings as the whistle would scare the Heck outta you!
I don't mind the hum of the 142/142A/143 when they are accelerating, but the noises they make when they come to a complete stop are outright painful!
i,ve gotten on all the cars that were running back in 2000,i think the quietest cars the R42,R44 and the R143.the R143 are quiet when they are running,but the breaks are diffrent story,damn noisey,same goes for the R142a,and i don,t like the wine when the train starts running.
the R143 does not need the wine,who,s idea was it to put the wine on
the R143?hope the R160 doesn,t have the wine sound that the R143 have.
til next time
The whine is both necessary and unremovable--it's the sound that the AC traction motors make as they propel the train ever faster. That noise is characteristic of that method of propulsion and, short of soundproofing the motors (causing increases in weight, cost and difficulty of maintenance) nothing can be done about it.
Dan
All time noisiest: R12, R14, R15. You can hear them coming from further away. They blast the station wall out louder than a boom box in Harlem and then THE BRAKINGGGGGG! That blows out the eardrums from the high end with a screeeeeeech.
No subway in the world is louder than those beutiful IRT dinosaurs. The memory of just their noise brings back ear splitting sensations of the train (sometimes mixed models) pulling into Brooklyn Museum at Eastern Pkwy and Washington Ave. that can bring tears to my eyes and my hand over my ears.
Inside the train it is the same with the roll down windows wide open and the walls of the tunnel going by fast amidst the ear splitting sound of a train that is in a hurry to screech into the next stop. Let's face it, what train today do you have to shout loud to be heard while the train is in motion and do not even try to talk when the train is pulling in/out of the station or speeding by on the express track and you are on the platform without earplugs?
NONE. You must shout to be heard when on those IRT classics.
Well, you have to also give a nod to the "Thunderbirds", the IND counterparts of the above mentioned fleet - that being our long-lost and in many cases much beloved R10. These were the loudest cars I've ever heard while in full flight. Not too bad on curves (they hissed more than screeched), but on, say, the CPW express run, EARSCHPLITTENLOUDENBOOMER.
Steve B, you can bear witness to this cacophony.
wayne
The difference between the R-10's and its IRT counterparts was when you had an R-10 the whole train was R-10's (with the exception of 1575) but the IRT counterparts (except when new) were usually mixed with newer cars, so the R-10's were louder as whole trains.
A big part of this is acoustics. The IRT tunnels really do echo a lot.
When the Market-Frankford line received the Adtranz (now Bombardier) M4's, the ride became much smoother than the Budd Co.'s "Almond Joy" cars offered - but in the tunnels, the noise reduction was not what Iexpected - until I stopped to consider the acoustics of that old tunnel (SEPTA's engineers confirmed that).
The R-10's were one of the noisiest in the system. By far, there was only one other car class to exceed them in decibel levels, and that was the pre-GOH R-32's....real rattle-cans they were! Your ears were hoping to leave you whenever those cars were flying at top speeds (with the end doors opened -- particularly in long tunnels).
I spent hundreds of hours on R-10's and R32's. In the 1960's they were not half as loud as the IRT subway cars. Not half.
Notice my handle? I was primarily a BMT-IND rider in my youth...IRT only recently (last 10 years or so).
Well I rode the IRT #1 75 percent of the time when I was a young child, and the Broadway Line was definately the loudest train I rode.
N Bwy Line
Are you kidding me peppertree? From about 1960-1989, I used the subway's every day to get to work, transfered from the IND, to the IRT, everyday. Most IND/BMT cars were about 5 times as loud, as the IRT cars. Also, R10's were much louder than 12's and 14's.
nothing tops the 38's[before rebuild]....they were by far the worst cars for noise... ever.
They still remain noisier than the R-32.
In my opinion, the R44's make a hell of a lot of noise with its loud traction motor and loud exhaust. Defintely the loudest exhaust of any current car type. On the inside however, it may be the quietest car class on the road. You can barely hear any noise from outside.
Well, judging by the previous posts on the subject, it is agreed that the noisiest cars are the R-10, R-12, R-14, R-15, any Redbird, R-27/30, R-32, R-38, or R-46. :)
But what made them noisy, really? Was it flat wheels, which were more prevalent in the deferred maintenance days? Was it the type of wheel, maybe? Was it the fact that when there wasn't A/C, the storm dors were left open, adding to the noise, whilst today they're closed because of A/C?
--Mark
The quieted single transit vehicles I can remember at all were the trackless trolleys in Brooklyn. They could really sneak up on you, and their electric acceleration accompanied by only a light electric motor whine was absolutely eerie.
The HLBR Kinkisharyo LRV's are ghostly silent. Newark's are similar, (have different wheelsets) but make a "swoosh", especially in the underground portion.
wayne
I complied a list of NYCT cars, from most noisy to quiet:
Redbirds (especially the R-36 Corona fleet)
R-40
R-38
R-42
R-32
R-62
R-44/46
R-68
R-142
For some reason the Corona R-36's are noiser than the Main Line
R-33/36. I can't explain why, but it probably has to do with the
General Overhaul.
Good news for TWU members if the need arises, Metro North will not scab you in the backs. Perhaps their train crews will forget to stop at Yankee Stadium or something like that. What are the LIRR guys talking about?
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/27057.htm
The MTA must be worried, they REFUSED to crew me for Sunday for Monday. They want to wait until the morning.
"Perhaps their train crews will forget to stop at Yankee Stadium or something like that."
If an MNRR crew does that, they'll probably get fired. They have a contract.
Also, on MNRR especially, the NYC stops serve predominantly low income passengers. It's not exactly being a labor hero to keep the office cleaners from getting to work while still carrying the executives.
From this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) last week briefed officials about the state of the region’s water and homeland security, including railroad protection.
The Arizona Daily Sun reported McCain said eventually rail would be the “threat du jour” and that, eventually, the government would have to address the vulnerability of the country’s rail system. He also commented on Amtrak, which has been at risk of losing federal subsidies for years, saying a new solution might put the burden of funding a transcontinental Amtrak line on the states through which the line passes.
“It’s hard to make an argument for a Miami-to-California line when you’re subsidizing at $300 per passenger,” McCain said. “We’re probably going to be asking states to contribute if they want the service through the state.”
McCain added, “We’ll probably see legislation that provides a lot of what the Northeast wants, but not all. There are very powerful supporters there, and rail service in the Northeast is finally becoming viable.”
On December 3, U.S. Rep. William Lipinski (D-Ill.) said he would introduce legislation to raise federal gasoline taxes by up to $15 billion to pay for transportation improvements, including creation of a special fund to spur modernization of the freight railroad industry.
Lipinski said users of highways, Amtrak and mass transit would benefit from the increased funding levels, wrote the Chicago Tribune, but his concept is focused on directing $5 billion annually into a proposed railroad trust fund.
The trust fund would be used to expand the capacity of freight railroads, relieve gridlock and improve the quality of life in communities whose residents are affected by freight trains blocking grade crossings and causing noise and air pollution while idling for hours.
The Blue Island area in Chicago is among the worst in the U.S.
”We have an aviation trust fund, we have a highway trust fund. I want to create a railroad trust fund,” Lipinski told the Tribune’s editorial board. He said he will introduce a bill in the House next month to fund his proposal.
The freight railroad industry has long opposed the idea of a railroad trust fund, even though the railroads’ investment in infrastructure has lagged far behind the growth in freight traffic, which is expected to almost double over the next 20 years. Officials representing the industry say they fear a railroad trust fund would create a new layer of bureaucracy and take away some control over their operations.
At the heart of Lipinski’s plan is a five cents a gallon increase in the federal gasoline tax (currently about 18 cents a gallon), coupled with an additional nickel a gallon increase based on changes in the Consumer Price Index. The gas tax hike would generate $10 billion to $15 billion a year, Lipinski said, including $1.7 billion he has earmarked for the railroad trust fund.
Lipinski acknowledged his proposed tax hikes will face opposition around the country and perhaps in Chicago, where motorists pay one of the highest gas taxes in the nation but Chicago is the only city in the U.S. served by all six of the largest freight railroads. Lipinski said the trust fund would stimulate the state economy by improving efficiencies for businesses that ship products by rail.
Chicago Mayor Richard Daley supports the Lipinski plan.
“The freight rail system in this country is antiquated. It takes as long to get freight trains through Chicago as it does for the trains to get here from the West Coast,” said Chicago Transportation Commissioner Miguel d’Escoto.
“The solution is not to put triple-long trucks on the highways.”
Lobbyists for the freight railroads are pushing for an end to a 4.3 cent per gallon tax on diesel fuel that the railroads pay. The money, generating $170 million annually, goes into the government’s general revenue fund.
Lipinski is seeking to retain the diesel tax and transfer the money into the railroad trust fund. To generate the $5 billion a year for the railroad trust fund, his plan also calls for an array of new taxes and fees.
On the same day, The Richmond Times-Dispatch reported that region has lots riding on the future of Amtrak, but the passenger railroad can survive only if Congress gives it a green light for improvements.
That was the message from U.S. Rep. Eric I. Cantor (R-Va.) to about 75 members of the Richmond Friends of Rail, a business-backed advocacy group trying to upgrade local rail service.
Cantor said, “Development of rail means jobs; rail means making Richmond a better and more attractive place to live,” according to the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
The 6 Main Street Station is expected to reopen by spring after a $48.2 million renovation.
Other efforts seek faster rail links for the Southeast, with Richmond playing a key role in a regional transportation network. Backers hope better rail service can provide an alternative to car and air travel.
The state has spent millions of dollars in recent years to replace tracks and interlockings in Northern Virginia and is working on making improvements in the Richmond area, yet service provider Amtrak “has been held hostage” by wrangling in Congress, Cantor said.
The solon helped secure $250,000 in federal transportation funds for improving local railroad grade crossings this year and also helped start a Virginia-North Carolina High Speed Rail Commission.
Two bills are pending in the House and Senate to finance Amtrak in fiscal year 2003, but neither measure addresses the railroad’s deeper need for help in maintaining thousands of miles of track, bridges and stations, Cantor said.
Amtrak has never made a profit, and that’s not likely to happen, Cantor said, unless Congress comes up with a way to finance a structural upgrade of Amtrak.
Cantor noted that during the past 30 years Congress has appropriated $750 billion for highway construction and billions more for airports.
Amtrak received $11 billion for improvements during that time, he said. “We have to change that,” Cantor said. “This country has to come to grips with its view of where rail fits in the pecking order.”
Congress should find a way to fix decaying rail infrastructure, and “let Amtrak focus on service,” Cantor said.
For its part, Amtrak needs to prove to Congress that it can get its financial house in order.
“It’s all about accountability,” Cantor said.
Speaking before key local business and government leaders, Cantor urged the Friends of Rail to keep lobbying Congress. By law, Amtrak can’t lobby on its own behalf.
S. Buford Scott, chairman of Scott & Stringfellow Inc.,a brokerage and investment banking firm, said after the meeting, “Groups like Friends of Rail become much more important because they’re the only ones that can lobby their congressmen.”
James Dunn, president of the Greater Richmond Chamber of Commerce, said Richmond is part of a regional business coalition pushing for high-speed rail service that would link the Southeast’s major cities.
Cantor said such regional alliances are vital for achieving better rail service in states such as Virginia and North Carolina, which have devoted considerable time and money to the cause.
Asked when central Virginians are likely to see faster trains, Cantor said, ”I hate even to guess, because so much has to do with making physical improvements along the way.”
From this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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Its number is F-40PHR No. 231, and an Oregon man is trying to rescue the power plant before its number becomes ‘zero.” Amtrak’s numbers of working F-40s are dwindling.
Chris Fussell of Portland, Ore., started his preservation project more than a year ago. He said efforts are underway to preserve the locomotive for the local Northwest Rail Museum.
“Starting last year, we worked on generating contacts, making special trips out to Amtrak’s facilities to assess the possibility of obtaining the 231. Then, we received word on November 19 that Amtrak would let the F-40 go, but at a price of $20,000.”
Fussell said time was really short – but an “angel” came to the rescue.
“We also had a deadline – December 5 – to pony up the cash, or the 231 goes with another deal being finalized in mid-December for possible scrap.”
It was almost too late.
The December 5 deadline arrived, and Fussell said, “We’ve raised a pledge of over $4,000 from at least 20 persons in six days That is certainly encouraging news for all of us involved in the project, and that includes every contributor.”
Great news came, however, in a phone call “from a nice gentleman on the East Coast, who made an offer to loan the $20,000 at zero percent interest. The purpose of the loan,” he said, “would allow the project to meet its December 5 deadline, and it did.”
Fussell added the loan could be repaid within one year “through contributions made to the project.” So, he is accepting donations to pay off the loan.
“I gave Amtrak the notice, and received the sales order that details the purchase of locomotive,” but before he signs the document, he said, “I have a responsibility to ensure the remainder of the acquisition project is free of any obstacles that may terminate the efforts. We got some bad news from BNSF, which are no longer able to provide donated tax-501(c) transportation due to funding.” He said he an estimated cost of the move “would range between $3,000 and $4,500 for transport from Chicago to Portland.”
Atop No 231
He also pointed out “The contract states that the new owner is responsible for all inspections and parts for the locomotive. This is generally the wheels, roller bearings, air hoses – just good enough for transport in a freight consist. I’m no qualified mechanic, otherwise I’d fly out to Beech Grove myself.”
The FRA requires a qualified mechanic to sign off equipment prior movement, and Amtrak is selling the engine “as-is, where-is. I was informed that the 231 is just the way it was from when I checked it last July, but who knows – maybe a brake valve part was robbed.”
Since transportation options dissolved, he is looking into other alternatives, including a possible move by Union Pacific, running the engine dead-in-tow on the Empire Builder, or transporting on a flat-bed truck.
He now has some new deadlines to meet.
Contract signature – December 14, 2003.
Removing engine by January 18 (subject to late a fee of $75 per day, or $2,250 monthly).
Getting a qualified mechanic to inspect locomotive to ensure transportation of unit is FRA approved, and that all parts are there as they should be (note from Amtrak indicates everything should be.)
Fussell said transportation costs, by rail or truck are tax-deductible through a donation to the Northwest Rail Museum (501(c) non-profit status).
“As for pledges,” Fussell said, “I have been keeping track of each one e-mailed to me (chris@portlandtransit.org). I won’t start actually accepting them until the contract is signed, when ensured a volunteer is willing to make the effort of inspecting the locomotive, and when transportation options become available. For now, those are our top priorities.”
He wrote an essay and posted it on a web site, http://www.portlandtransit.org/essay.html, in which he sated, “I’m making a last chance effort on the internet, to seek ideas and options.…”
He noted No. 231 was “the only one that stuck around,” in the Portland area.
“Sure, I saw Nos. 281, 340, 353, 369 – but look what happened to them. The 281 had a bad motor. 340 was gutted. 353 mowed down a house, and 369 just gave up.”
He pointed out “No. 231 really stuck it out on the West Coast, particularly on the Surfliners, Cascades corridor, and the Coast Starlight. Every time I saw it, or rode behind it, I always said to myself that one day, I was going to try to save this masterpiece of Amtrak.”
In November 2001, the 231, and many other F-40s, were recalled to Beech Grove, ending their heavy presence at Amtrak. A few lingered, some went to new owners, the rest rusted away in Indiana.
Last July, he traveled to Beech Grove “via Empire Builder and Cardinal, to meet with some Amtrak managers. We inspected the No. 231, and determined it was still in good shape.”
He wrote a proposal to Amtrak, “detailing why the No. 231 should be preserved, and seeking assistance from Amtrak.”
The principal reason was that the engine still ran.
“It had a heavy presence on the West Coast, so should be preserved on the West Coast. Another was the well-known nose decal ‘Operation Lifesaver’ with a safety message of ‘Look, Listen, Live.”
Fussell said he consulted several people. They agreed: it should be donated to the Northwest Rail Museum.
“Doyle McCormack assured there is a home for it at the Brooklyn Roundhouse in Portland for restoration and maintenance.”
He said he has “A team ready to get to work on it, which includes me, some folks from around town, and even as far as Southern California. I also have word from BNSF and UP for possible transportation at no cost.”
In late November he “received word from Amtrak that they will let the F-40 go, but at a price of $20,000. I was given a deadline, Thursday, December 5, to pony up the cash, or the F-40 goes to scrap. I tried to get more time, but the deal is about to be finalized in mid-December.”
He even met with bankers with written proposals of possibly getting a grant (which is tax-deductible) at the last-minute effort.
“No luck with the banks, but I did meet with a rail buff in the Portland U.S. Bancorp Tower who gave me a list of foundations that are likely to assist. The problem is, most of the foundations meet every two months.”
He said he tried to put a notice in the local newspaper about obtaining the locomotive for a local cause, a museum. That didn’t work, because of the last-minute efforts that did not meet their deadline.
He said he would like to get a donation of $20,000, or $10,000 from two persons, to buy the locomotive. The donation(s) would be made to Northwest Rail Museum, and it is tax deductible.
Fussell’s e-mail address is chris@portlandtransit.org
It may be possible to get a three-month extension from Amtrak, but not without some cash on hand.
Another option, he said, is “if the pledges we receive reach $20,000 from individuals, we can purchase the locomotive. That’s $1 from 20,000 persons, $20 from 1,000 persons, or $100 from 200 persons.
Chris Fussell’s yarn is further detailed at
http://www.portlandtransit.org/f40phr231.html
From this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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A Boston-based consortium that includes a former Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) general manager has been chosen by current MBTA boss to run the region’s commuter rail service.
The T’s General Manager, Michael H. Mulhern, will ask the MBTA board to award a $1.07 billion, five-year contract to the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. to operate the nation’s fifth-largest commuter rail operation, starting July 1, according to the Boston Globe of December 6.
If its bid is accepted, the new commuter railroad, made up of European rail powerhouse Connex, Canada’s Bombardier of North America, and a Boston transportation consulting firm headed by former MBTA general manager James F. O’Leary, would replace Amtrak as commuter rail operator. Amtrak declined to rebid on the lucrative contract last summer citing new and onerous requirements.
Boston’s commuter rail network, with 146,000 riders per weekday, is the nation’s fifth largest behind the Long Island Rail Road, New York’s Metro-North Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and Chicago’s Metra, according to Jane’s World Railways. Boston is also Amtrak’s largest and most profitable commuter-rail operation.
“By choosing the proposal that offered the lowest price and earned the highest technical evaluation, [Mulhern] is confident this recommendation will serve both to contain costs and improve the quality of service for years to come,” said MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo. “He wouldn’t bring this recommendation to the board if he felt otherwise.”
Running the region’s commuter rail system would give Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad the chance to prove itself a worthy rail operator to succeed Amtrak.
“MBCR is very pleased to learn that its bid has been placed on the MBTA board agenda for next week,” said spokeswoman Tara Frier. “However, it’s premature to comment further until there is a final decision.”
Guilford Transportation Systems, Inc. officials (formerly Boston & Maine), said December 5 they were disappointed that Mulhern did not choose them, but they applauded the T for a fair and comprehensive bid process.
A third bidder, TransitAmerica, was disqualified for submitting an incomplete bid. Officials also said the selection process was equitable.
The MassBay conglomerate had emerged as the front-runner because of its rail operation experience, deep pockets, and worldwide clout.
Under the contract, MassBay would receive an average of $214.4 million annually from the T over five years, plus another $15 million under a separate contract for “mobilization services,” making the total cost of the contract $1.087 billion.
T officials said the one-time $15 million payment will be used to pay for the transition from Amtrak to MassBay. It includes purchase of support and maintenance vehicles, cost of a 100-person-plus transition team, inspections of all track and infrastructure, and setting up and meeting payroll for 1,700 employees when the changeover occurs on July 1.
T officials say the new contract will yield an estimated $50 million in savings over five years.
The cost of the new pact includes operating the planned Greenbush service on the South Shore and other costs Amtrak never had to pay for, Pesaturo said.
Other T officials said the increased price probably includes a 15 percent to 20 percent pay raise for current commuter rail workers, something rail unions had called for.
The new contract also includes financial penalties for poor service and financial incentives for accurate fare collection and for exceeding performance levels, he said.
Amtrak dropped out of the bidding process in July, saying the terms of the new contract would prohibit it from turning a profit.
Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad bid $1,072,194,212 on the contract while Boston and Maine Corp. bid $2.02 billion. It could not be determined why there was such a large financial discrepancy between the two bids. T officials refused to provide or discuss details of either proposal.
Many rail analysts say the new contract could be a key first step in bringing privatized rail services to the United States.
The pending move also marks the beginning of the end of Amtrak’s often-strained relationship with the MBTA.
A commuter rail passenger died of a heart attack this year after the Amtrak crew delayed getting him immediate medical help while making two scheduled station stops – but most likely those same Amtrak commuter lines crews will be the crews operating the new entity; they simply will have a new employer.
Mulhern told a legislative committee this week that the quality of service offered by Amtrak has recently begun to “drop off.”
Pending the award of the contract, legislators and T officials have said the focus will shift to the transition to the private carrier.
One of the most stubborn issues in the transition will most likely be over control of a section of the Attleboro rail line that stretches from Boston to the Rhode Island border. As it now stands, Amtrak dispatches all trains from South Station enroute to New York on the so-called “Southwest Corridor” and the mainline to the Rhode Island state line, Providence and New Haven, Conn., where Metro-North takes over. M-N runs the Amtrak trains as far as New Rochelle, N.Y. where they make a left turn onto “the branch,” and the Hell Gate line to Penn Station, New York City.
Also being considered is who will make the twice-weekly track inspections, and maintain communications and signals, especially at interlockings. There are 13 interlockings between South Station and the state line.
Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black in Washington told D:F on Friday the railroad does not yet know the answers to many questions that have arisen with the coming changes, including who will do the dispatching from South Station’s fifth floor, or if the T, Amtrak or the new entity will dispatch the trains, at least as far as the 38-mile distant state line.
“All your questions are good ones, but most of them have not yet been resolved. Dispatching, for example: the issue of control of the “Attleboro Line” remains in negotiation between the T and Amtrak. As for transfer of jobs, they depend to large degree on the outcome of the Attleboro Line issue.”
Black said “Amtrak is working closely with the T to resolve these and many other transitional issues, including – but by no means limited to – disposition of motor vehicles, transfer of employees (and their benefits), and disposition of outside contracts (for materials,” for example.
Three words... Connex South Central... need I say any more?
Stories from October, 2000 and August, 2001:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/988016.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1509731.stm
Man Mike, I know you're a big amtrak guy, but now even your lifestyle's beccoming 'amtrakized'!
This story has got to be at least a week old.....
Mike just blindly cross-posts on a regular basis... doesn't stop to think that (A) most of the people here don't care, and (B) those that do have already read them on the original web site or elsewhere. I think he's trying to maintain a place in the top ten posters of all time (quantity, not quality).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have been specifically asked by several people to post Destination Freedom stuff here as their newsletter is inconvienant to read. I don't you see getting on other people when they post links to the Boston Globe, NY Times or NY Post.
I don't you see getting on other people when they post links to the Boston Globe, NY Times or NY Post.
Most of the articles linked from the newspapers are actually current news, not stale information. Ever notice how incredibly few of your cross-postings from DF have any followup posts (in contrast to the linked articles from the newspaper)? That implies very little interest. Perhaps if you just posted the links, instead of violating copyright laws by reproducing the entire article, I'd be less annoyed. (And yes, I know you've indicated that you have permission to cross-post Hot Times, I'm not talking about that one.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are no links plural. There is a single page and when I used to post the link to it few people would bother to read down and find the article in question. Many people complained about D/F and its format and said they would never follow a link there.
Most of the stories I post have not gotten any play on subtalk and I feel that for the ones that have, D/F might provide a fresh prospective.
From this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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The crowd had grown a little restless when the special Connecticut DOT train finally started moving again.
“We’re moving back onto a double-track section. No waiting here,” said Justin Fox, a transportation consultant working on a feasibility study for commuter rail service between New Haven and Springfield, Mass.
“We’re approaching our maximum speed of 79 miles an hour,” wrote a Meriden Record-Journal reporter who was aboard ConnDOT coach 1001.
The snow-covered tobacco fields of Windsor filled the windows as the three-car train rattled north on December 4 along a section of the line on which Amtrak did not tear up one of the two tracks. Only scattered sections, totaling 24 miles of the 62-mile line, remain double-tracked. Perennially facing financial difficulties, Amtrak tore up the rest of the tracks in 1990 to save money on maintenance.
In addition to existing stops in Meriden, Wallingford and Berlin that are served by Amtrak long-distance trains, the proposed commuter service would include new stations in North Haven and Newington as well as others between Hartford and Springfield.
Tour-guide commentary over the public address system by Fox and others also discussed the potential of the line, including the possibility of building a “regional transportation center” in Wallingford.
Featuring a train station, regional transit bus terminal and expanded commuter parking lot, the center would be at the junction of U.S. Route 5, interchange 13 of Interstate 91, and Toelles Road, just north of the Wallingford-North Haven line. The railroad runs alongside Route 5 at that point, two miles south of the downtown Wallingford railroad station.
The study is just getting started, but it was clear that pointing out problems with the condition of the line was one purpose of the excursion train. It carried about 50 public officials and transportation experts who are involved with the study as well s media.
Commentators made announcements each time the train entered track sections with reduced speed limits required for urban and suburban grade crossings. While service could be started with the current travel time, planners are concerned that double tracking of the entire line may be needed to run more trains, according to Harry P. Harris, chief of the state DOT’s Bureau of Public Transportation.
Amtrak, with five trains per day in each direction, runs New Haven to Wallingford in 13 minutes, Wallingford to Meriden in seven minutes and Meriden to Hartford in 22 minutes. For New Haven to Springfield, the timetable calls for an average speed of 47 mph, including station stops.
To eliminate speed restrictions, the line would need state-of-the-art crossing signals and gates, which cost about $1.5 million for each street. Some crossings might need to be eliminated by building bridges or tunnels or by closing them, Harris said.
He suggested that significant improvements should be made before the first commuter train rolls:
“When you start a service with minimal investment, you get minimal ridership.... We can start a service on a shoestring, but will it be successful? In all probability, no.”
No official estimates have been made of the possible cost of getting the rail service started, but All Aboard!, a Hartford-based commuter rail advocacy group, said last spring that the cost could range from $5 million to $10 million for a minimal upgrade of existing facilities to as much as $250 million for an all-out modernization of the line.
The New Haven-Springfield commuter rail study, one of many planning projects under the umbrella of the Connecticut Transportation Strategies Board, is scheduled to be completed by late next year.
Riding aboard the special train were state Reps. James W. Abrams and Christopher G. Donovan, both Meriden Democrats and leading legislative advocates of the commuter rail proposal. Representing a district that includes Meriden’s poorest neighborhoods, Donovan sees commuter rail as more than a remedy for congested highways.
“For Meriden, it’s of particular importance because it’s a question of accessibility for people to travel to different places for employment, people who can’t afford cars or can’t drive.”
However, in addition to competing with an array of other mass transit spending ideas, the proposal would have to survive scrutiny in Hartford amid projections of a massive state budget deficit next year. With the legislature’s regular session due to start next month, Abrams has an argument ready.
“Several economic cycles will come and go before this is a reality, even in the best case. We don’t know what the budget situation will be. This is long term, just doing the further planning that would be needed will be a few years. We have to consider this in a long-term context,” he said.
From this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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The national’s capital is getting a new Metrorail line – to Dulles International Airport, with 11 stations in between.
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) directors said November 21 the line would extend Metrorail through Tyson’s Corner, Va., to Dulles and eastern Loudoun County, Va.
The $3.14 billion route includes a rail yard site on Dulles Airport property, and storage tracks and a new yard connection to the existing West Falls Church Rail Yard.
Plans call for the rail extension to begin from the Orange Line near West Falls Church, travel through Tyson’s Corner, continue through Dulles Airport, and end near Ashburn in Loudoun County.
WMATA said the existing enhanced express bus service will be modified to incorporate elements of Bus Rapid Transit to satisfy the increasing travel demand in the Dulles Corridor until the start of revenue operations for the Metrorail alternative.
Virginia’s Commonwealth Transportation Board will act on the plan during December, at which time the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation will seek Federal Transit Administration approval to start preliminary engineering for the project and to advance the process to the final environmental impact statement.
And how many years has NYC waited for a line to either airport?
We all know where the money originates after it leaves the taxpayers pockets.
The line to Rockaway runs near JFK and Astoria (N &W) could be extended to Laguardia. The distance between the Ditmars Terminal and Laguardia is sparsely populated by New York and even Queens standards.
Oh well, maybe in the next century we will get the extension?
Any plans to run through service via Metro Orange line to DC proper?
While they're at it, they should run it all the way out to Winchester.
My Mom & Dad would love it! The way that town's growing they're going to needs something one of these days.
wayne
Here's a facinating Op Ed from this weeks Destination Freedom. Located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12092002.shtml
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Why transit supporters should oppose transit tax increases
By Daniel G. Jennings
One of the biggest mistakes that transit backers make is to mindlessly support tax increases designed to pay for new transit systems. The backing of such tax increases is the worst thing that transit backers can do for several reasons and here are several reasons why:
Transportation funding in America is already at an adequate level. There is plenty of money available for transportation projects. This includes existing highway funds raised by gas taxes, and federal and state funding for transit construction, which has been increasing. The problem is not the amount of money spent on transportation but how it is spent. In most cases, money diverted from highway and freeway-building funds is more than enough to pay for new rail lines and bus system improvements. Nor is diversion from highway spending necessary in some states such as Colorado. It may be possible to get gas tax funds diverted for purposes such as “general government operation” (read increasing funds for politicians pet projects here) reallocated to transit construction.
Major transit system construction can be funded without tax increases. In city after city, transit officials and politicians who claimed that new rail lines couldn’t be built without tax increases have found the funds for new transit lines after tax increases were defeated by voters. The prices of proposed transit systems often go down when the tax increase bonanza disappears.
In Denver, several major tax increases for rail construction have been defeated at the ballot box, yet nearly 20 miles of light rail have been built since then. Portland, Ore., too, has opened at least two major new light rail lines since a tax increase was defeated.
Contrary to liberal orthodoxy, tax increases and high taxes do hurt average Americans. In particular, the tax increases demanded by transit backers hit the poor and working classes hardest. These are sales, property and gas tax increases which raise the price of necessities required by everybody regardless of income. Sales tax increases raise the price of things like clothes and household goods, property tax increases raise the price of housing – and yes, property taxes hit renters. When property taxes go up, landlords have to raise the rent to pay the increased property tax.
Fuel tax increases hit almost everybody, especially the working poor, who need to buy gas to get to jobs. Is it fair to finance new transit lines on the backs of the poor and working class, especially when such lines often serve affluent suburbs where developers who make big campaign contributions are building new subdivisions?
The huge amounts of money raised by such transit tax increases often make transit systems too elaborate and expensive. When bureaucrats and politicians get a blank check, they act just like the rest of us: they spend more. They design transit lines that are too long, too big, and too elaborate. At the same time, contractors, and others who profit from such construction, smell more money, and start making more campaign contributions to politicians who drive up construction cost and contractors’ profits. Politicians with a big stash of cash are also less likely to stand up to community groups demanding that a subway be built under main street so there can be a few extra parking spaces in front of Mr. Chang’s restaurant or so Mrs. Smith doesn’t have to see the train from her garden.
The result is we get subway and elevated lines that aren’t needed, expensive art works in transit stations and other massive wastes of tax money that turn the public against transit. When politicians and bureaucrats know that only a certain amount of money is available to build new transit systems, they can and will design transit systems that can be built within that budget.
Linking transit taxes to transit makes the debate not about what it should be – transportation – but about taxes. Average people will see not hard working public servants trying to improve their communities but another gang of politicians and bureaucrats trying to raid their pocketbooks. Many people who might normally support new transit systems will oppose them because they don’t want higher taxes.
Linking transit to taxes makes transit opponents job easier. The transit opponents can count on the support of the third to half of the population that always votes against any tax increase. Worse, they can portray transit supporters as arrogant liberals trying to finance their pet project on the backs of working Americans. This means it is easy for a tiny minority of anti-transit fanatics to defeat any transit proposal.
When transit proposals haven’t involved tax increases the public has voted for them. For example, the T-Rex proposal in Colorado, which diverted some freeway funds to rail construction, passed by a wide margin in 1999.
If transit supporters want to see many more transit systems constructed in the United States they have no choice. They have to forget about the idea of tax increases.
this is from the same chap who thnks rail transit can promote conservative ideals like "mom the homemaker" and sending children to parochial schools. You can read more of his 'small government/large family POV at>>http://www.trolleycar.org/<<
The Free Congress Foundation. It IS comical to have anti-government railfans support public transit.
Right wingers can foam too.
indeed, my perspective is that railfans, particularly older steam fans, tend toward a nostalgic conservatism. I remember hearing racist comments on a trolley trip in DC in '62 as we passed the NAACP office.. I thought some progress had occurred when I was offered a joint on an excursion in '71 (in Ca).
I don't think love of trains is restricted to any socio-political group, nor should it be. I DO however find the tone of much on Weyrich's site infuriating. Mind you I defend his right of speech every bit as much as anyone else's; I just find some of his other positions abhorent. I visit his site because he disributes an occasional newsletter from Harold Geissenheimer--a veteran transit manager with wide experience and contacts.
While the writer has a point with transit taxes often chosen to be those that are regressive, he also blatantly misrepresents the state of transit funding. The fact is, transit funding waxes and wanes, and lately, it's been waning, especially in places that don't have dedicated capital funding. He also purposefully doesn't tell you that the trend in highway vs. transit is for transit money to be hijacked for highways, not the other way around.
Light rail is great, but there are places where it's too slow, too inefficient and doesn't produce enough gain for the money you spend. Light rail is better than nothing, but in places where populations grow quickly, heabvy rail may have to replace it ultimately.
In cities which already have subway service, the most cost-effective expansion is more subway service. The greater New York City area does have light rail service (west bank of the Hudson), but Subtalk posts have illustrated some of its shortcomings (though I am glad it was built. It is a positive and welcome thing overall). You're not going to extend PATH or the NYC subway with a trolley. Ditto in places like DC and San Francisco. Washington Metrorail is expanding - with more Metrorail. Even then, people arenoticing that the two-track design has some capacity limitations that WMATA is not going tobe able to address anytime soon. Light rail would not address that.
Light rail is great in San Francisco, but BART and commuter rail cover the longer distances more efficiently.
The answer: There is no one best answer, I suppose. Progressive income taxes are better, in my opinion. Or simply shifting more money from highways to transit. Of course, I say "simply" without regard to how complicated, politically, that really is.
The following text in bold was sent via e-mail by a unknown sender concerning the potential transit strike.
Subj: Finally an article that tells the TRUTH, straight up!
Date: 12/15/02 1:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Alias hidden by order of AOL!
To: MTAboy99, Septa3371, SciGuy6586
The New York City transit dispute—the class issues
By Bill Vann
14 December 2002
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the authorThis article is available as a PDF leaflet to download and distribute
With the contract covering 34,000 New York City train operators, bus drivers and other mass transit employees set to expire December 15, both the city and the state of New York are threatening to carry out drastic repressive measures if there is a strike. Supporting these attacks, the mass media in the city has sought to whip up an atmosphere of hysteria against the workers.
The city administration of billionaire Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg went to court this week seeking an injunction that would ensure personal financial ruin for strikers and the destruction of their union. The measures demanded include $25,000 fines against each individual worker on the first day of the walkout, with the penalty doubling for each additional day on the picket line. If workers stayed out 11 days—the length of the city’s last transit strike 22 years ago—the fine would mount to more than $25 million each. Fines against their union, Transport Workers Union Local 100, would start at $1 million, mounting to over $1 billion in an 11-day stoppage.
Republican Governor George Pataki has sought further punitive sanctions under the state’s anti-union Taylor Law, including the jailing of union officials. He has also threatened to call out the National Guard in the event of a walkout.
This campaign of intimidation is aimed in the first instance at forcing New York’s transit workers to accept a contract that would saddle them with a wage freeze and ultimately cut real wages $4,000 each by the end of three years. Starting salary for most transit workers is about $33,000 a year, barely enough to pay for housing and food in a city that has among the highest living costs in the world.
More fundamentally, city and state governments, backed by New York’s powerful financial and corporate interests, are determined to defeat the transit workers in order to set an example. Their aim is to force public employees and the working class as a whole to pay for the fiscal crisis created by Wall Street’s tumbling share prices combined with the massive tax cuts doled out to big business and the wealthy over the past decade.
With the city, state and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority all facing multibillion-dollar deficits, the answer to this crisis from both Republican and Democratic officials is wage-cutting, the destruction of benefits and the dismantling of what little remains of the social safety net upon which the city’s growing ranks of unemployed, homeless and poor are forced to depend.
Underlying the strikebreaking threats and the ferocious denunciation of the workers and their union is a gaping class divide. Never has the chasm been so wide between the working class and poor, who make up the city’s vast majority, and those at the top of the city’s social ladder. New York boasts one of the greatest concentrations of multimillionaires anywhere, together with a pampered upper middle class. These privileged layers have come regard the rest of the population as little more than their servants and react with fear and anger to the threat of a transit strike, seeing it as something akin to a slave revolt.
Leading a campaign to vilify transit workers is the ineffable New York Post. There is more than a whiff of fascism in the tabloid’s denunciation of the transit union and its members. Its owner, Australian-born media magnate Rupert Murdoch, is himself a specialist in breaking unions in the newspaper industry. He speaks for an extreme right-wing group within the ruling elite that is infuriated that a section of the working class would even threaten to fight back.
The Post has repeatedly described the strike threat as a union “jihad,” equating the refusal to submit to management with the September 11 terrorist attacks. It has called for workers to be fired and jailed, while waging a vile campaign of character assassination against Local 100 President Roger Toussaint.
In an editorial on city strike preparations, the Post declared: “The most important step the city can take? Prepare an arrest warrant for Transit Workers Union leader Roger Toussaint.” The editorial concluded, “True, even these sanctions may not deter Toussaint’s jihad. In which case, if someone’s got a tougher penalty, we’d be all ears.”
Toussaint, with justification, responded that the newspaper was calling for his assassination.
The paper’s editorial page editor, John Podhoretz, son of the neo-conservative guru Norman Podhoretz, drafted a column attributing the threat of a strike to union members “whose fantasy it is that evil bosses are exploiting the workers.” He called for the state to fire transit workers the way Reagan fired PATCO strikers in 1981.
Dismissing workers’ concerns about management’s drive for productivity increases, Podhoretz writes: “It means that when one guy who does nothing retires, a second guy who does nothing will have to take on the first guy’s responsibilities rather than the MTA hiring a third guy who can spend 30 years doing nothing just like the first two guys.”
Podhoretz should tell that to the families of the four workers killed on the tracks in the past 18 months because of the Transit Authority’s attempt to boost productivity by refusing to observe federal safety standards. Better yet, why doesn’t he drag himself down to the tracks and see how he fares? No doubt, having imbibed the rigorous work standards of Reverend Moon’s and Rupert Murdoch’s editorial boards, he can show the workers how it’s done, increasing output while dodging trains. All for the princely sum of $33,000 a year.
While the Post is the most virulent in its attack on transit workers, it is by no means alone. In its usual sanctimonious style, the New York Times editorialized that “workers have neither the legal nor the moral right to hold the city hostage ... nothing would excuse a transit strike at a time when the city is in fragile financial and emotional condition.”
The media is unable to summon up similar moral outrage when big business “holds the city hostage.” Thus, they reported without comment news that investment banking and securities firm Bear, Stearns & Company is threatening to leave the city once again unless it receives tens of millions of dollars more in tax breaks and other subsidies.
This is in effect an employer strike threat endangering the livelihoods of thousands of workers. It is also the third time in barely a decade that the finance house has issued a similar extortion threat, each time coming away with massive benefits paid for by taxpayers. No one calls this “hostage-taking”; it’s just business. In the last few years alone, billions of dollars in such subsidies—drained out of vital social services—have been forked over in response to corporate threats to stage “walkouts” from the city.
As for the city’s “fragile” emotions in the wake of the September 11 attacks, they don’t become an issue when corporations carry out wholesale attacks on their workers. Thus, when Verizon announced this month that it plans to sack 3,500 telephone workers, or when the city threatens to cut funds for everything from daycare to meals for the elderly, editorialists merely note that tough times call for tough measures.
Transit workers and every section of the working population should treat such hypocritical arguments with contempt. It is the same claim that has been made since 1975, when the city was brought back from the brink of bankruptcy and the banks were bailed out with sacrifices, layoffs and budget cuts negotiated between City Hall and the union bureaucracy. Even during the period of the longest stock market boom in history, public officials and the media insisted on concessions and cutbacks from workers, conscious that the billions made on Wall Street had to be paid for through fresh attacks on workers.
Once again, the Metropolitan Transit Authority is claiming that it is deeply in the red and can sustain itself only through cutting employee compensation and raising passenger fares. The union has responded that management is exaggerating its financial crisis in order to push through its reactionary agenda.
While the claims of a deficit may be inflated, the agency’s fiscal crisis is real enough, the result of definite policies pursued over the last two decades. The running of the TA, like every other public institution, is subordinated to the interests of the wealthy.
To further tax cuts for the rich and the corporations, operating subsidies for the city’s subway and bus system have been eliminated on the federal level, while neither the state nor the city have provided any increase in nearly a decade, despite a sharp increase in ridership. As part of its budget cuts, the city is proposing to slash its own contribution. To make up for the shortfall, the MTA has turned increasingly to fare-based bonds as its main source of financing, incurring a total debt approaching $30 billion. Management’s aim is to compel both transit workers and the riding public to shoulder the full weight of this debt burden.
As for the claim that workers have no “moral right” to strike, nothing would have a more powerful moral effect than for transit workers to shut the city down. A transit strike would demonstrate the objective power of the working class to stand up against the massive assault that is being carried out against its living standards and basic rights not only in New York City but nationwide.
The city and state’s attempt to bully transit workers into submission with the anti-union Taylor Law is essentially no different than the use of the bankruptcy courts to wage an unprecedented attack on the jobs, wages and working conditions of tens of thousands of workers at US Airways, United and throughout the airlines industry.
Resisting these attacks requires above all a political strategy. The last city transit strike in 1980 brought the Koch administration to the verge of collapse before it was called off by a TWU bureaucracy that was terrified of the political implications of continuing the walkout.
The threat of jailings, fines and the National Guard only underscores that transit workers today also face a political struggle that cannot be won based on the narrow trade union outlook of the TWU bureaucracy or through its alliance with the Democratic Party. Toussaint has in the past week appealed for both Governor George Pataki and Mayor Michael Bloomberg to join the talks, promoting the illusion that these politicians will somehow intervene in the workers’ favor.
A massive movement of support can and must be built among working people in New York City. Millions of workers, youth, immigrants and struggling middle class people will respond to a clear demand that Wall Street, the corporations and the rich be forced to pay for the crisis rather than working people. There is bitter opposition to cuts in services and the Bloomberg administration’s proposals to raise taxes for every section of the population except for the rich, who are to receive another windfall.
This opposition can find active expression only through a struggle against a political establishment that represents the interests only of the corporations, banks and the super-rich. Working people in New York City and nationally need their own political party based on a fight for social equality and genuine democratic control of the mass transit system and the rest of society’s vital resources.
Only such a party can advance a socialist program that begins with the needs of the majority of society, rather than the interests of the corporate elite and Wall Street financiers, and fights for well-paying jobs, decent housing and schools, and free quality health care and mass transportation for all.
The Socialist Equality Party is committed to the defense of the transit workers through a fight for this program. The confrontation building up in New York City demonstrates the urgency of building the SEP as the mass party of the working class to carry forward this struggle.
Please do not ask me who sent this to me!
>Please do not ask me who sent this to me!
AH The Socialist Equality Party?
ROTFLMAO.
I TOTALLY AGREE with all but the last two sentences, Socialism is not the answer. Regulation of corporate activities and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Remember the pendulum of political history ... if we let the laissez fairy swing that pole too much further to the right, Karl Marx WILL have a monument in DC some day. :)
Like the weather, extremes only get balanced with other extremes, no room for a "center" in America ...
The only thing that Marx got right was the existence of class warfare
I'm personally a John Lennonist and a Harpo Marxist myself - but man oh man - the "little people" still don't seem to get where they stand in the current regime and keep VOTING for their "captors" ... in the next two years, we're going to swing even FARTHER to the right. When the pendulum starts to swing back, zipping right PAST the middle again and out to the other side, I don't wanna be around to see what happens when the poor start cooking the rich over a low flame.
"in the next two years, we're going to swing even FARTHER to the right."
Maybe Trent Lott will be their Achilles heel. In 2 years every challenger to an incumbent Republican will say "My opponent voted to make Trent Lott majority leader of the Senate after his Strom Thurmond speech. I rest my case."
I'm hoping that approach will do well in about 25 of the 34 states that have senatorial elections in 2004.
kirk',you said it a long time ago.... and word for word ,it all true. Those Bastards.... it was just a matter of time before they showed their ''true'' colors[hiding in plain sight or eyes wide shut?]Snakes,Vipers!!! Come out of her,least you taste the wraith of that which is yet to come.,.......
and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Ah... Er... pardon me.... How do inheritance taxes affect corporations?
Confused
They do not, however the geratest threat to America's freedom are those families who have anassed dynastic wealth such as the Mellons who'se "Clinton Project" so harrassed the President that he was unable to administer the Government, leading to 8/11 and the ascendancy of the bu$h dynasty Part II. so that what wea inheritance tax laws we do have will be elininated. This it why, barring a miracle, American leadership is a thing of the past. (You need a strong manufacturing base to support a 21st. century superpower jmilitary and they're rightsizing it out of existence. Engineering and technology education is shrinking in favor of WORTHLESS business and economics courses. R.I.P. America
ey do not, however the geratest threat to America's freedom are those families who have anassed dynastic wealth such as the Mellons who'se "Clinton Project" so harrassed the President that he was unable to administer the Government, leading to 9/11 and the ascendancy of the bu$h dynasty Part II. so that what inheritance tax laws we do have will be elininated. This it why, barring a miracle, American leadership is a thing of the past. (You need a strong manufacturing base to support a 21st. century superpower military and they're rightsizing it out of existence. Engineering and technology education is shrinking in favor of WORTHLESS business and economics courses. R.I.P. America
Because rather than having new people make their money through hard work or shrewd investments, worthless children of rich people get control of the power their ancestors actually WORKED to achieve.
I've said this before: When a person dies, their assets must go with them. All of the hard assets would be sold, the cash would be used to pay off as much debt as possible and any miney that's left over once all debts are paid would be deleted.
Regulation of corporate activities and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Regulations of corporate activities will only stymie innovation. What needs to be done is to put an end to corporate welfare and to provide tough enforcement against common thieves like Kenneth Lay. Kenneth Lay deserves to be classified an enemy combatant.
From Microsoft to Enron, about the only "innovation" we've really seen here is accounting practices. All other "innovation" was achieved by theft from smaller operations with associated screwage. Agreed on "ending welfare as we know it" for the rich, but some regulation that stifles the kind of "innovation" we've seen would certainly be in order as well. TRUE "innovation" makes profits and is a good thing. With Microsoft having walked after all they've done, time to regulate "innovation" as well ...
I will be in Miami in 2 weeks, and I would like any input about good Cuban restaurants close to Miami Metrorail stations. Also, how far is the Cuban-American business district of Calle Ocho from the Metrorail station? I am staying in downtown, and will not rent a car.
Thank you.
Uh, I don't know. Sorry. Thank you, come again. :)
Most of the good Cuban restaurants are in Little Havana, which are a good distance from the Metrorail.
Paul
>Please do not ask me who sent this to me!
AH The Socialist Equality Party?
ROTFLMAO.
I TOTALLY AGREE with all but the last two sentences, Socialism is not the answer. Regulation of corporate activities and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Remember the pendulum of political history ... if we let the laissez fairy swing that pole too much further to the right, Karl Marx WILL have a monument in DC some day. :)
Like the weather, extremes only get balanced with other extremes, no room for a "center" in America ...
The only thing that Marx got right was the existence of class warfare
I'm personally a John Lennonist and a Harpo Marxist myself - but man oh man - the "little people" still don't seem to get where they stand in the current regime and keep VOTING for their "captors" ... in the next two years, we're going to swing even FARTHER to the right. When the pendulum starts to swing back, zipping right PAST the middle again and out to the other side, I don't wanna be around to see what happens when the poor start cooking the rich over a low flame.
"in the next two years, we're going to swing even FARTHER to the right."
Maybe Trent Lott will be their Achilles heel. In 2 years every challenger to an incumbent Republican will say "My opponent voted to make Trent Lott majority leader of the Senate after his Strom Thurmond speech. I rest my case."
I'm hoping that approach will do well in about 25 of the 34 states that have senatorial elections in 2004.
kirk',you said it a long time ago.... and word for word ,it all true. Those Bastards.... it was just a matter of time before they showed their ''true'' colors[hiding in plain sight or eyes wide shut?]Snakes,Vipers!!! Come out of her,least you taste the wraith of that which is yet to come.,.......
and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Ah... Er... pardon me.... How do inheritance taxes affect corporations?
Confused
They do not, however the geratest threat to America's freedom are those families who have anassed dynastic wealth such as the Mellons who'se "Clinton Project" so harrassed the President that he was unable to administer the Government, leading to 8/11 and the ascendancy of the bu$h dynasty Part II. so that what wea inheritance tax laws we do have will be elininated. This it why, barring a miracle, American leadership is a thing of the past. (You need a strong manufacturing base to support a 21st. century superpower jmilitary and they're rightsizing it out of existence. Engineering and technology education is shrinking in favor of WORTHLESS business and economics courses. R.I.P. America
ey do not, however the geratest threat to America's freedom are those families who have anassed dynastic wealth such as the Mellons who'se "Clinton Project" so harrassed the President that he was unable to administer the Government, leading to 9/11 and the ascendancy of the bu$h dynasty Part II. so that what inheritance tax laws we do have will be elininated. This it why, barring a miracle, American leadership is a thing of the past. (You need a strong manufacturing base to support a 21st. century superpower military and they're rightsizing it out of existence. Engineering and technology education is shrinking in favor of WORTHLESS business and economics courses. R.I.P. America
Because rather than having new people make their money through hard work or shrewd investments, worthless children of rich people get control of the power their ancestors actually WORKED to achieve.
I've said this before: When a person dies, their assets must go with them. All of the hard assets would be sold, the cash would be used to pay off as much debt as possible and any miney that's left over once all debts are paid would be deleted.
Regulation of corporate activities and "Vicious" enforcement of inheritance taxes is what is needed here.
Regulations of corporate activities will only stymie innovation. What needs to be done is to put an end to corporate welfare and to provide tough enforcement against common thieves like Kenneth Lay. Kenneth Lay deserves to be classified an enemy combatant.
From Microsoft to Enron, about the only "innovation" we've really seen here is accounting practices. All other "innovation" was achieved by theft from smaller operations with associated screwage. Agreed on "ending welfare as we know it" for the rich, but some regulation that stifles the kind of "innovation" we've seen would certainly be in order as well. TRUE "innovation" makes profits and is a good thing. With Microsoft having walked after all they've done, time to regulate "innovation" as well ...
On Sat., Dec. 14, at 1000am, an Amtrak test train derailed at Lyons, NY (near CP335). Nine cars on the ground, upright and in line. Power was AMTK 104/147. No injuries. The train was operating as CSX P975-14. Assumedly it was operated as Amtrak Train 975, the 900-series usually indicating an Extra.
-AcelaExpress2005
Oh yes, the boxcar train. Gotta love it, even in this day and age, we're still investigating why boxcars derail...
More details, please.
Probably high center of gravity. The SDP40F loco derailments were never really scientifically proven, but likely from that as well.
Ok, with the fact of the matter being that new subway lines are becoming a dream, and subway overcrowding becoming a problem, here is a great solution, putting light rail lines on major roads. Here is I would like to introduce the program, put a light rail line on the Grand Concourse and Queens Boulevard, these roads are wide enough that adding two tracks and stations along the side walk will not impede problems. These are faster then busses, and with their ability to adjust the lights, they can speed up trips and reduce congestion on the subway lines below them. I think Light Rail for NYC would be the best way to go from now on, especially in Queens and in the Bronx, and maybe on certain roads in Manhattan. What do you all feel?
QB and the Concourse don't need more local service.
The trouble is that at the places where light rail would really help at a far lower cost than a subway, it won't work.
Suppose you steamrollered the merchants and took 2 lanes of 2nd Ave for light rail. What happens when the trolley gets to a westbound street and the rail is blocked by cars backed up from 3rd Ave.? Don't tell me no driver would dare stand on the tracks. NY/NJ drivers will literally risk killing a pedestrian for advantage, they won't have any qualms about delaying a trolley.
did ya ever think about the money,i don,t NYC has the money to do a project like that,the light rail would help NYC with the overcrowding,
but NYC needs the money,and i don,t think they have the money to do it
til next time
I agree with AlM... the outlying areas need more SUBWAYS!
Where I do see a need for LRVs (trollies) is some connecting routes in the boros.. but more especially in the CBD. Of course my plan ELIMINATES provate automobiles from even entering the CBD, so better service there would become very necessary.
I would probably stop a broadway car every 3rd block, and I would eliminate the cross streets at the blocks where they do not stop. But then I already CLOSED broadway to all traffic, and made it a pedestrian mall anyway.
I'd close the Brooklyn Bridge to cars, just LRVs and pedestrians... this makes some great circulation between downtown Brooklyn and downtown downtown. All of these cars are fare-free.
Elias
NYC missed a great opportunity when they rebuilt the West Side Highway from 57th to Battery. There was plenty of room to build light rail next to the road. It could've started near Columbus Circle, swung west and down West Side Hwy., serving Passenger Ship Terminal, Intrepid, Javits and Chelsea Piers.
High Speed Train Could Be Put On Hold
Dec 15, 2002 10:05 am US/Eastern
Talk about a high-speed train from Baltimore to Washington is down to a whisper because of the state's budget crisis.
Officials say the 4-point-4 billion dollar magnetic levitation train is being edged off the list of Maryland's transportation priorities.
Maryland is competing with Pittsburgh to win 950 million dollars in federal money to build the nation's first maglev line. The Federal Railroad Administration plans to pick a winner by next fall.
But because of concerns about the budget crisis it's unlikely the project will receive a positive review from the state's 27-member maglev task force.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
YAY! Pittsburgh will get the MAGLEV! Glory days are here!
count not your make work dollars until they are deposited. Remember Md elected a Rep gov., PA a Dem IIRC.
disclosure I was raised in Md. However, I think maglev is not real yet and thus a huge waste of money. If the locals are serious about DC Balto service, four tracks ALL the WAY on the Penn Line (forgive me fellow B&O fans) with half hourly service would do fine @ 90-110 MPH. This could be done at much lower overall cost, AND as segments are upgraded, equipment received service can increase incrementally. BTW upgrading the frt bypass to full NEC standards and restringing the catenary to VA, would facillitate Balto -- Alex skipping Union Station, and begin the needed march of wire to Richmond.
The MAGLEV was meant to be the first in the US and was to be brought in mainly if we got an Olympic Bid. That is why we are a finalist with Pittsburgh. I don't know much about the details for the Pittsburgh MAGLEV, but since we lost the Olympic Bid (I envision a NYC Olympics to not be a very good one and DC and SF had the best bids), our need for a MAGLEV is not worth the cost. I also wonder if we even have the money to build one in either location.
Pittsburgh seriously needs more trains. Maglev would kick ass, but sadly the chances are nil that it'll be built and working by the time I graduate and move outta here.
I should clarify that I mean public train transportation...there are tons of freight trains moving thru here.
I am going to take an unusual stance here and talk about political issues that affect the economy and in turn everything going on lately. The amount of bickering and finger pointed has gotten me extremely annoyed. So I have found the perfect solution to getting the raise for the workers and help the economy of NYC. DROP THE DEAD WEIGHT! There are a lot of jobs that have no use or were created for friends of politicians, and really serve no use except ink the city of money. Uncontrolled spending sprees by certain city employees on phones, internet and stupid items, which the city and in turn us must pay for inevitably. The dead weight must go, the positions that are useless must go, and this goes right into the MTA, there are many positions there that are quite useless, and there are too many high positions that exist too that serve no purpose and ink the system of money. Too many supervisors of course are an example, and other such high positions. I am sorry; it is rare that I take a radical stance with this, but the political b/s that has gone on needs to stop. This city needs money, and if the MTA needs money, drop the dead weight! Thank you for listening to me.
The catch is that the people who have the dead weight jobs don't go around admitting it. It takes superb management skills (lacking in many agencies and departments) to root out the dead weight without rooting out the people who are doing valuable work that the voters really want done.
The REAL catch is that the deadwood titles are former assembly members, staff members, political operatives and people who KNOW where the bones are buried and could make a BIG stink to the press as to what they know. I got one of those kind of situations for myself many many years ago. When the particular politician (who I like, admire and is still alive) is no longer with us, I'll maybe tell the story.
Point is, the deadwood will be protected at all COSTS by the politicos because a civil service title (or appointment) ensures that they won't squeal to the press and take out a powerful politico with way too many skeletons in the closet with remaining aspirations of higher elected office. Thruway Authority, Dorm Authority, MTA and other "authorities" tend to get these folks as do smaller agencies. Any place where they can be hidden and not too closely audited. The REALLY naughty ones end up as lobbyists and consultants because what they know is SO extreme, they can go out independently and still make some politicos quake.
So the "deadwood" in practice tends to be the hourlies once again. :(
Quite true. I often read threads at the Rider Diaries' and here saying how the MTA should ve dealt with, not knowing it will never happen. I swear Selly, you have it right on the mark. Politicians can never lose!
And we keep REWARDING them for doing this by re-electing them again. Meanwhile we bash the hourlies who have ZERO control over anything. I just don't get it. :(
I concur... You should visit the Rider Diaries and set them straight. I wouldn't mind seeing you there!
Subtalk kills more than enough productive time. :)
I *did* check it out and saw a plethora of different boards, strikes me as a place you have to setup a cot to hang out in and make it a full time gig. But I'm hard-pressed to keep up with THIS place and Uncle Harry's.
Alright then... I understand your reasoning...BUT if you ever want to drop by, please don't hesitate! We need you knowledge there to set some people straight! :-P Until then, thanks Selly.
MMMMmmmmoo. :)
The catch is that the people who have the dead weight jobs don't go around admitting it. It takes superb management skills (lacking in many agencies and departments) to root out the dead weight without rooting out the people who are doing valuable work that the voters really want done.
There are a couple of quick and dirty ways to get rid of deadwood - for instance, going through the employee directory and re-engineering everyone with the word "Co-ordinator" is his or her job title.
Ah the dead weight! Truely the first and foremost thing that should be discharged from NYC and MTA. Unfortunately that dead weight is protected by the bureaucracy and the politicians.
A bureauacrat won't move to fire his fellow deadwoods because he might just happen to be one himself. Of course if he has to go, he's not going unless he gets a golden parachute.
The politician is unlikely to dump the deadwood. He would lose his friends in the process. His former friends would have some damaging infomation that would allow the politician to lose the next election. and whoever wins the election who have new friends to give out plum jobs to.
So if deadwoood has be thrown out, and it will, what do you think will happen?
Management will first try to have their agents do more work for what they are earning. TA has done that already cut back on assists working in the busy token booths. Now they are trying to declare the workers are lazy and overpaid so that they can be laid off in the name of $avings. And after all that is done, there will still be alot of deadwood protected by Politicians and Bureaucrats.
>>> So I have found the perfect solution to getting the raise for the workers and help the economy of NYC. DROP THE DEAD WEIGHT! <<<
I suppose you are for Mom and Apple Pie too. :-)
Tom
For those holding unlimited cards, if the unthinkable happens, the clock will stop. ie- if you would have three days left, when service resumes you would still have three days. ONE EXCEPZTION- if you use a private line in Queens or SIRT then the clock continues to run. (SOURCE: MTA web site.)
If you have a transitchek or mail and ride card (LIRR, Metro North) you will receive a credit on the next bill after service resumes
disclaimer- this post is not an attempt to influence the personal decision by any transit employee on this site. This post is only an attempt to supply informationm about unlimited farecards.
The judge has issued an injunction and while he has not forbidden talk on the "S word" I'll comply with the spirit of the decision and not use the word.
Will an unused $17 7 day unlimited card still be good for a 7 day period after the fare goes up?
The details of the fare hike haven't been approved yet, only that the base fare will be hiked in some manner (that can still be overturned: fat chance though).
It's just a matter of time. In the meantime I'd like to tell people to buy and stockpile 7 and 30 day unlimited cards to $ave.
That one I do not know the answer. I will make a guess that since it is a seven (or 30) day card that it woulkd be honored.
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/64628.htm
Why shouldn't it be open as usual? Financial services types (at least the ones who haven't been laid off yet) use company-paid limos and car services; they'd probably be fired retroactively for setting foot on a bus.
"they'd probably be fired retroactively for setting foot on a bus"
Actually, many firms are providing charter buses from GCT and Penn.
[Financial services types (at least the ones who haven't been laid off yet) use company-paid limos and car services; they'd probably be fired retroactively for setting foot on a bus.]
If ignorance is bliss, you must be one very happy fellow.
If this was dsicussed already, please ignore me.
In a previous thread, it was made clear why A & B division subway workers have to covered in the same contract, which of course makes perfect sense.
However, subway and bus operators have different jobs, which presumably require somewhat different skills. I can understand both groups of workers belonging to the same union, but why the same contrat? One would think that it would be easier to have one contract for subway workers and one for bus workers, to ease the chaos if either group were to strike.
Any thoughts? (If I had to make an assumption, it would be that the union would want a combined contract, for this exact reason.)
because they are smart enough not to be "devide (d) and conquer (ed). The logic of a srike or even the threat is a massive enough disruption to make the other side give in in a hurry. The more workers out the greater the pain. Besides, expecting members of the same local to "cross" lines if either bus or subway were out alone is nuts.
For a comparison, in the Bay Area, BART (oue subway) is separate and organised by three separate 'bargaining units'(none TWU), SF Muni is represented by TWU 250A, AC Transit yet another. But, when BART has struck, AC has refused to put out extra vuses (presumably as a concession to its workers).
One other note, Rescue Muni an analog of Straphangers (all volunteer however) posted on its site the entire text of the last Muni/TWU MOU for all to read. It would be interesting to read the NY version.
Thanks - makes sense.
I wonder if a splitting of the bus/subway contracts could be obtained, in exchange for $$$ terms that are closer to what the union wants. Probably not, but just a thought.
It's the same contract because it's the same union. However, the contract contains clauses pertaining solely to individual titles (Bus Operator, Train Operator, Conductor, Station Agent, various maintenance titles, etc.).
Queens and Staten Island Bus Operators are represented by two locals (one each) of the Amalgamated Transit Union.
David
Or shall I say what didn't happen ?
I attended the ERA Redbird fantrip last week and the talk was that this was your last chance to ride the Snediker Ave segment because next weekend, the changeover would take place.
I rode the (L) past Atantic Ave and nothing was going on. Even the ERA NYD Bulletin listed work today and yesterday. Could this be because:
1) Possible strike ?
2) Too close to Christmas ?
Anyone hear any news on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably both.
Even though the new trackway's in place almost to Sutter, they still have some steel to erect and track and third rail to cut in. I'd say it will take them one week to complete it. Perhaps it isn't the right time just now, with all this strike threat going on etc.
wayne
Because of the possibility of a strike, ALL of this weekend's scheduled track projects throughout the system were canceled.
David
Maybe all the guys' wives had babies.
This route needs a lot more work in my mind before I am ready to add it to my website (which I want to rebuild anyway). But here is the Metropolitan - Ninth Avenue Subway
Elias
Move 233rd Street-Union Tpke east a couple blocks to Winchester Blvd-Creedmoor and you've got a deal. 244th Street is really Cross Island Parkway; better relocate it to Commonwealth Boulevard.
Price tag: $15 Billion plus.
wayne
I'm confused.
This (The Ninth Avenue Subway) and the 5th Avenue Subway that I posted last night are all new lines, taking advantage of new high speed equipment. Their main focus in on the under-served outer-lying areas of the city, although as you can see there are also new local routes closer in to the city. It is thought that existing lines cannot be extended because they, their ROWs, Crossings, and Trunk Routes are all maxed-out.
New lines require new crossings and new trunks. No Manhattan really does not *need* a 5th Avenue and a 9th Avenue subway, but those traveling on new lines need some place to go. (You will notice my concession to Fifth Avenue over endowed NIMBYs.... I made NO STOPS for them at all. : )
This 9th Avenue Subway then started with the idea of providing service to the east end of Union Turnpike, via Metropolitan Avenue to New York City. It crosses about where the second system wanted to cross. Indeed it does make a passenger connection with the IND at Second Avenue, but then veers off on to Bleecker Street, in order to avoid getting tangled with the IND. Some routes turn south to WTC and others north along 9th Avenue.
My 5th Avenue Subway built two four track tunnels, but the 79th Street tunnel only had three services running on it, so the second local track serves from the Whitestone neighborhood to the 9th Avenue trunk.
Other 9th Avenue service continues up Amsterdam Avenue, and crosses into the Bronx to provide a cross-Bronx service along Treemont Avenue.
Because these are all high speed trains (Express runs up to 80 mph) there are long stretches of express track, the trains are also computer regulated for maximum tph and safety. Because of this, they cannot be intermixed with existing routes... which would delay these routes anyway.
If you look at my Fifth Avenue map, you will see service on the Fulton Street Local, but this route has been fully captured by the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway. It connects to the local tracks south of Hoyt-S and continues past Euclid through 76th etc. to Cross Bay. (We *will* FINALLY find out about 76th Street!) The IND will use only the Express tracks on Fulton Street, the (A) up on to Liberty Avenue, but extended east, and bending north on Supthin to terminate at Hillside Avenue. The (E) will be the second Cranberry-Fulton Service, and will run express to Cross Bay, and then local on Linden Blvd to the County line.
Hope this explains my maps a little.
Elias
Does anybody know the manufacterer and/or model of the exterior destination signs on these new CAF cars?
If NYCT workers strike, what will happen to everyone working at 12. Will they pull into the next station if they are a T/O (stay on the train if C/R), dump, and go out of fare control? Will TW/O's and the rest of the force just walk away from where they are and go home? Seems kind of surreal to think about.
Train crews that left before 12 Midnight will finish their runs.
Station agents will wait in the booths for supervision to arrive. Thwy will bag out and also drop in the booth safes all of booth property.
Cleaners and meal reliefs will likely be told to go home after they put their equipment away.
It won't be a matter of employees just walking away at the clocks toll 12.
Yes, you are so right.
If there is a strike, he should be first to go to jail. Look, I understand why the employees are upset, but times are tough in the city. Cops and firefighters didn't get a big raise. Everyone has to do there part. I find Toussaint a money hungry, selfish, hypocriticle, and ignorant piece of sewer garbage who cares only for the union and no one else. Hopefully, the union is fined into hell. I look forward to missing work if they strike. I can't drive, and can't afford a cab everyday, unlike Toussaint.
[If there is a strike, he should be first to go to jail.]
Whatever the law calls for is what should happen.
- - - - -
[...Toussaint...cares only for the union and no one else.]
If any union leadership gives priority to the union itself at the expense of its members, then the members should respond by voting in new leadership. That's why elections are held.
Toussaint as a martyr! What a great idea!
If he chooses to call a strike instead of caving in to sign a contract with 0%, 0%,and 0% and other givebacks, he'll go to jail and he'll be reelected at the next union election by a landslide!
Since I haven't worked for the state for a while, I haven't been keeping that big an eye on things until I hit the local paper today. Look for the "Aha!" thread and check it for yourself.
Touissant and the TWU have been SCAPEGOATED ... and then the REST of the fertilizer hits the Axiflows in the coming weeks, there will be NO TWU members present to clean it up ...
If there is a headline stating:
PATAKI & BRUNO IN JAIL!
The next line will probably say:
WHY ISN"T TOUSSAINT?
As long as it shows Paturkey and Bruno getting into their separate GMC black Uber-SUV's, I'm sure we won't mind. :)
SUPER-Suv's?....Dont you mean ULTRA SUV's?
Let's call a shovel a shovel, these guys don't drive them piddly skates on wheels popular in da burbs, these are heavily armed recreational vehicles. Only the finest for our finest. :)
Who's Bruno? :)
He's the REAL governor. Wiseass. :)
Bruno is hoping for questions like that to stay out of jail and have his pork projects.
That's righ, the cops complained when PERB suggested a 10% raise.
I checked the online editions of many papers and it seems that the whole country is watching.
Good...hopfully they'll get to see that labor in NYC is standing it's ground and not being intimidated by the corporate greed-mongers that have devastated lives with their acquisitions and 'mergers' in the past few years (Top Execs lining their pockets while laying off thousands).
The coward pataki doesn't have the courage to get involved. He'd rather use the MTA to ruin those workers' lives. then he comes out smelling like a rose, dirty dog that he is.
Man wishes not get his hands dirty.
Yeah, notice how he hides himself RIGHT AFTER getting re-elected... BUM personified!!!
He does appear to be a bit of of chicken, irrespective of one's views of the strike.
He's been our absentee governor for 8 years now, going on 12. New Yorkers CONTINUE to get their money's worth. :)
State of the State address is coming a few days after New Years' ... the truth HAS to come out there, can't wait to see what the spin doctors have summoned up. If folks think TWU members are honked off, the REST of the state work force just got wind that they're going to get it too, including those nice State Troopers that have to supervise the trains if they stop running down yonder.
Screw ... for sale ...
Standing it's ground by making us all walk????? Yeah, I call that standing in the ground.
Better to stand in the ground than to lay under it.
Didn't you take our Great Mayor's advice to heart? Get ya butt on a Schwin! (I know your a Manhattanite -- so you don't have it as bad as the outer-borough folk!)
I wonder how many people are going to try riding a bike monday morning and realise they're not kids anymore? I wonder if Bleepburg will be able to go to and from City Hall on his? I hope he remembered to bring a device to hold his briefcase.
I'm going for it!
Never ridden a bike outside the summer before, but I've planned out my 9.7 mile commute, and plunked down forty bucks on a special pair of bike gloves. (They keep you warm and still grip.)
If it's really messy out, I'll walk. However, I've always wanted the opportunity to bike to work, w/o having to worry about getting there at 9:00.
Weather forecast says an inch of snow by morning. It'll be interesting to see how many people will actually try biking or walking to work in the morning.
I have a stubborn personality, and a good pair of boots. Will trek it. :)
Well I'm not a Manhattanite yet. I'm looking for an apartment now, to move into in 2 or 3 weeks. If you know of any good apartments on the UWS or in Washington Heights, let me know :) But you are partially correct, because the last time in "lived" in NYC (summer of 2002) I was living in Washington Heights.
---Brian
BTW, I already have a TREK 850 :) ...which I WILL be bringing the NYC with me next month. Summer of 2001, on my last day of work, I rode my TREK home from midtown to Ave J in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn via the newly opened pedestrain walkway on the Manhattan Bridge. Hey, I almost got killed by taxis on Broadway, but that was one heck of a ride!
---Brian
So, you're a Brighton Line user...eh? I'm not too far from you...near Ave I....close to BC...(2/5 train is my rush hour ride despite my 'handle' :)
im from I too, got the Q on the side and the lirr in the back
You ever RODE on the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch?
Everywhere except California.
If it weren't for discussions here in SubTalk, I wouldn't have known a thing about it. Nothing has been mentioned on the TV here in southern California that I've heard...and our papers haven't shown a thing.
Not exactly true. The Los Angeles Times carried an article titled "Rush Hour For N.Y. Transit Talks" on page A34 of yesterday's (12/14) edition. Of course, the Cardinal Law/Henry Kissinger/Trent Lott stories took precedence.
Oh well, I don't read the LA Times....
Nothing in yesterday's OC Register or SD Union Tribune.....I didn't see today's SDpaper yet but nothing otherwise.
But, as George mentions, those other stories seem to be bigger news. (The OC Register would rather run such stories than REAL news....)
San Diego Union-Trib has two AP articles in today's (online, at least) edition.
CNN.com has it as a major story.
It's SoCal. A nuke could go off in DC and they wouldn't care.
The Fox channel in Philly had the story as a tease for the 10 o'clock news. They attempted to show a video of an approaching subway train, but all that showed up was headlights. Then they showed a Metro North train.
Times Union ... what's happening to TWU is about to happen to EVERYBODY ELSE!
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=83244&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=&newsdate=12/15/2002
And of course, the SPIN ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=46293&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=CONFI&newsdate=12/15/2002
Just for the record, here's a listing of increments over the past 12 years for the average state worker:
1990 - 5.5%
1991 - ZERO
1992 - ZERO
1993 - 4.0%
1994 - 4.0%, 1.25% for some
1995 - ZERO
1996 - ZERO (I bailed here, couldn't afford it any longer)
1997 - 3.5%
1998 - 3.5%
1999 - 3.0%
2000 - 3.0%
2001 - 3.5%
2002 - 3.5%
Source: CSEA
Cool. Thanks.
So it's been a little over 3% per year... wish I had done that well during that time in private industry. The last six years I've averaged -1.5% with the added health care costs, and before that (excluding the 16 months I was unemployed and the wage delta between my former employer and my current one) I was getting an average just under 3%. Civil service guys did very well by comparison.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, but they also had a lot of catching up to do for all those zeroes as well. Certainly not the near 6% per year of the 80's and earlier though. But I thought putting the numbers out might be helpful as a comparison, with all the various pay grades though, it'd be a nightmare to throw it out in dollar amounts, but state workers in general do not make as much as folks in the private sector except in a very few highly specialized titles.
When you operate subway trains for a living for example, there's not exactly that many private sector gigs to be had. Computer network engineers for example make a salary in the low $20k range ...
Ok, its before midnight and I just wanted to take some time to ask why on Earth we keep putting ourselves through this bullcrap every 3 or 4 years. I remember that last big NYCT "strike" threat. It filled up Subtalk for weeks. Everbody yelling at everybody else. The MTA is greedy, the workers are lazy, the Union bosses are a bunch of power mad, uncaring hypocrites, the MTA bosses are a bunch of are a bunch of power mad, uncaring hypocrites, etc, etc and so on and so forth. And then, surprise suprise there was a "breakthrough" and the negioations were extended and then wadda you know, 3 days latter an agreement was reached. So all the postering and name calling and fingerpointing and hate and bile filled SubTalk threads were all for naught.
Just like in Philly we can always count on a strike, NYC will "barely" manage to avoid one. I predict that we will see the exact same thing that happened every contract renewal in NYC happen again. After this is all done we'll look back at all the posts and say to ourselves, "boy, I sure did waste my time getting caught up in that pointless hype.
Question: Why did you even waste the time to post this then?
I wanted to predict that nothing would happen so I could have a chance to say I told you so to someone.
This one is quite different due to a new union leader who is not part of the old guard.
Easy.
The pols and the TWU ignore the success in Baltimore: Binding Arbitration. The union got binding arbitration. The riders got total freedom from transit stikes.
Last transit strike here: 1968. ATU Division 1300 vs. Baltimore Transit Company. 22 days. State takeover of BTC: 1970. Binding arbitration begins 1970.
It works. New York and Philadelphia are too stupid to even try it.
I thought the Taylor Law provided for binding arbitration. The NYC police have certainly gotten better contracts than NYC wanted to give them through arbitration at various times.
The Baltimore solution to constant transit strikes here was Binding Arbitration with the union giving up the right to strike. We had strikes in 1952, 1956, 1966, 1968 before enough was enough.
It works like this: 5 month before the contract expires, the two sides must begin negotiations. If nothing happens after 90 days, the arbitration begins. Both sides MUST accept the arbitrators decision. There's no appeal. Sometimes the arbitrator comes up with a settlement that either side doesn't like, but it's binding. 3 times the figure was more than the MTA wanted, but, they had to accept.
The TWU refuses to give up the right to strike, which our ATU union did. That's 90% of the whole problem. It's the most militant tranport union and in New York there has always been an antigonistic atmosphere. The union is always right and NYCT is always wrong. Same in Philadelphia in SEPTA's City Division.
Per the Taylor Law, TWU Local 100 has no right to strike against NYC Transit. The law allows for binding arbitration in the event of an impasse.
David
Why haven't both sides gone for binding arbitration after 12 am last night?
Evidently, the two sides hadn't reached an impasse. They'd reached the end of the contract, but they evidently believed they could eventually hammer out an agreement on their own.
David
In the PERB's booklet "What is the Taylor Law? and how does it work", it says "Generally, an impasse may be deemed to exist 120 days prior to a contract's expiration. Under..., mediation is the required first step."
Thanks for the information. Maybe somebody should have read that paragraph to the MTA and TWU negotiators :-)
But seriously, folks, it appears that one or both sides either didn't come to the conclusion, or refused to admit, that an impasse had been reached. Since a contract DID result from the negotiations (eventually, and pending ratification by the rank-and-file), I would conclude that there never was an impasse.
David
But they weren't talking 120 days before the expiration!
So, maybe next time, at 120 days out, we need to file for an impasse and bring in a mediator. This will force Management to negotiate for 4 months - not 10 days.
"So, maybe next time, at 120 days out, we need to file for an impasse and bring in a mediator. This will force Management to negotiate for 4 months - not 10 days."
I can't imagine that the UTW leadership is ignorant of the Taylor Law. They certainly chose their course of action either (a) because in their opinion it was the one likely to get the best results or (b) it was what they felt they had to do politically to seem responsive to the membership. Going to binding arbitration may not be the course of action that is expected of people elected on a "militant" platform.
Please, please, DON"T put words into my mouth (and I'll promise to do the same for you). Under the Taylor Law, there is a difference between "mediation" and "binding arbitration."
Upon declaring an impasse, a mediator is brought in as a liaison (OT - did you know that Stephen Sondheim once rhymed 'liaison' with 'raisin'?) between the parties. This mediator is appointed by PERB at the request of either party (and, as I've noted before, the three-member PERB is picked by the Governor, who also picks the head of the MTA).
If the dispute is not resolved in mediation, then PERB will conduct an investigation into the status of the dispute, and may order further mediation. PERB can refer the dispute to binding arbitration ONLY if such request is made jointly by parties, or if PERB certifies that a voluntary resolution of the dispute cannot be effected.
Sorry, I was thinking at the same time about another set of postings on the topic, and also that there is a sequence of steps leading from mediation to possible eventual binding arbitration.
Who is behind the reluctance of the parties on board to accept binding arbitration? Is it labor or management? That seems to be a crucial part. If one side is for it and the other against I would have some real reservations about siding with the latter. BA might be just the ticket to stop these shutdowns in the future. Dan Lawrence has said it is working in Baltimore. Why not in New York? And if there is money available in Albany why hasn't it gotten to the city where it belongs. One more question, is this Joe Bruno guy as big an asshole as my friend Selkirk says? What's his problem?
Binding arbitration is binding, so if the TWU doesn't like the decision, they have no choice, they have to accept it. But, if they can successfully negotiate, then they can possibly get a better deal.
The TWU could get 'binding arbitration at any time.
Binding arbitration is binding on both sides. It may result in a solution that the union is unhappy with or it may result in a solution NYCT is unhappy with, but it will result in a solution. (Union members still have the upper hand: if they're really unsatisfied they always have the option to quit -- individually or en masse -- while NYCT has to stick around.)
Fred, I will try to be non partisan in this: The state of New York has not had an annual budget pass on time in 14 years. The Assembly and Senate has relatively little to say about the process. The real power in the legislative branch rests with Sheldon Silver (D), Assembly speaker, and Joseph Bruno (R), Senate majority leader. The badget process has been described as three men in a room. (Bruno, Silver, and Gov. Pataki) They ALL have to agree for there to be a budget. Republicans like yourself may prefer to chew on Mr. Silver, while I prefer to blame Bruno, But Selkirk lives in the Albany area which happens to be Bruno's neck of the woods. Bruno, with his power, gets B*I*G**P*O*R*K and Selkirk resents this. As for Silver, I assume he has less of a pork barrel because he is the lone Democrat in the mix ,but his district is in Manhattan where post 9/11 help is needed.
You all keep missing the point.
Read my post on what has worked in Baltimore since 1970.
I read it more than once. If I read it correctly, it seems that in Baltimore, in return for the transit union's giving up the right to strike, binding arbitration was made available in the event of an impasse. That's ALREADY the case in New York City, so nothing has to change to make it the case.
David
However, the "magic bullet" is that the union (ATU Division 1300) gave up the right to strike. The Taylor Law says that the union cannot strike and refers to binding arbitration, but since TWU 100 has not given up the right to strike, it's not the same thing.
ATU 1300 gave up the right to strike. Even if the contract expires (with our time frame it shouldn't, but you never know) they cannot strike. The trains and buses keep running and the public is never affected.
TWU didn't. Taylor Law or no Taylor Law, they still can strike.
If New York had what Baltimore has, none of the pocket drama we all just went through (it affected New York, but the news was in every major TV and newpaper market in the USA) would have never happened.
That was my point.
I do mention that in the 32 years since our system started, 9 of the contracts (usually 2 years, but we've had a couple of 3's and one 4) have resulted in the arbitrator awarding a wage figure larger than the Union wanted and the MTA could afford, which causes much fiscal shuffling at the William Donald Schaefer Tower and in Annapolis. 3 resulted in a lower figure than the Union wanted, but that's what sometimes happens.
In the last 15 or so years the Union finally realized that they are dealing with the State of Maryland, not the Baltimore Transit Company any more, and since they are taxpayers too, the contract process has become a very civilized process. This has resulted in contracts that are fair to the employees and not a burden to the MTA. The local media ignores the process, and I suspect they don't even know when the current contract expires.
It's not all sweetness and light here, though. The grievance system is as active as ever, there's friction between the bus and rail sides of the system (the rail guys feel the union ignores them as most of the problems are on the bus side, so that's where the attention is.) and nobody knows how that's going to play out.
So then the difference is that in Baltimore the union gave up the right to strike, whereas in New York the TWU's right to strike was removed involuntarily? The bottom line is, in neither place is there a right to strike, and therefore the TWU should not have been talking about a strike. (You're all welcome to disagree all you want, but Judge Spodek agreed with the position I just stated, as did the judge who signed a similar restraining order to Judge Spodek's in 1999.)
David
>>> So then the difference is that in Baltimore the union gave up the right to strike, whereas in New York the TWU's right to strike was removed involuntarily? <<<
Wrong! Since the Baltimore no strike agreement is part of the union contract, once the contract expires the union would no longer be bound by its agreement not to strike. The real difference is that in Baltimore both sides enter into meaningful bargaining far enough in advance and have dispute resolution methods that both sides respect so that the workers never have to work without a contract.
Tom
Negotiations for the new NYCT/TWU contract started in September to meet a December deadline. How is that not far enough in advance?
The same dispute resolution methods are in place in Baltimore and New York. I ask again: why is that not good enough in New York?
David
>>> Negotiations for the new NYCT/TWU contract started in September to meet a December deadline. <<<
Read my post again. I said "meaningful bargaining." It does not matter when negotiations started, if the TA was presenting its first offer of a 0,0,0 raise with increased contribution to medical one week before the contract ended, it is hard to believe that there was much meaningful bargaining during September and October.
>>> The same dispute resolution methods are in place in Baltimore and New York <<<
Not according to Dan Lawrence. He stated earlier in the thread that in Baltimore "5 month before the contract expires, the two sides must begin negotiations. If nothing happens after 90 days, the arbitration begins. Both sides MUST accept the arbitrators decision." September is not five months before the middle of December on my calendar, and there is no provision for binding arbitration in New York.
Tom
Although I apparently missed the "5 months before" reference, I am correct on the rest of my statement. THERE IS BINDING ARBITRATION in New York -- the two sides simply did not choose to avail themselves of it. As far as "meaningful bargaining," look at the history of public labor negotiations in New York. No matter when the bargaining starts, a deal is NEVER struck (or at least never announced) until the last minute -- or later! It feeds the media frenzy and makes both sides look like heroes. In other words, they could start negotiating the 2006 labor agreement tomorrow morning and not come up with anything until mid-December 2006.
David
[In other words, they could start negotiating the 2006 labor agreement tomorrow morning and not come up with anything until mid-December 2006.]
My guess is that they've already agreed on the next contract, and are now busily scripting the associated "us-versus-them" press conferences.
>>> THERE IS BINDING ARBITRATION in New York -- the two sides simply did not choose to avail themselves of it. <<<
You are still missing the boat, Baltimore REQUIRES binding arbitration if an agreement is not reached 60 days before the end of the contract. New York does not, and if I remember correctly from earlier posts, New York goes to mediation first before arbitration without time limits allowing talks to string out far beyond the end of a contract. These are significant differences.
Tom
Aaah...now I've got it. I'm still not sure any of this would stop the TWU from having its say, but I've got it.
David
I suspect the TWU would never go for a plan like Baltimore's. The TWU is possibly the most militant transit union. ATU is percived by the TWU types as "pansy union" and has been for many years. ATU was once known as the Amagamated Association of Street, Electric Railway and Motorcoach Employees of America. Quite a mouthfull and usually referred to as "the Amalgamated". When the Baltimore Transit Company was being organized by the Amalgamated in the 1940's it was pretty bitter. Employees who signed pledge cards were harrased and several suddenly discovered that their deferments vanished and Uncle Sam was giving them a new job. By 1944 BTC was under NCL control and the union finally got representation, but the next 25 years were a succesion of strikes, one of 19 days in January 1952, a second one in 1952 was about shirt colors, I kid you not. The company wanted grey, a lot of the operators wanted white and the union said "either". The company suspened 165 operators for wearing white shirts and the union walked. That one lasted two days. Our '56 strike was about money, plain and simple and that one went from January 30, 1956 and lasted until March 15 when the State seized the property and service resumed. The company took the seizure to court and the whole mess was finally wrapped up in April 1956. Strikes were rare until the 1968 one. The union struck on October 1, 1968 and buses stopped until the 22nd. The period from 1956 to 1968 wasn't all strike threat clear. The union threatend to strike in 1958, 1960, 1964, 1965 and 1966. (The company went for 1-year contracts in that period.) The public was pretty much on edge.
The 1968 one was the seed for the Agreement. It was radical for the time, but 30 plus years shows it does work. Would the TWU accept it? I doubt it.
I think the solution for New York is to amend the Taylor Law to require the NYCT and the TWU to begin formal negotiations 6 months before the current contract expires. That should reduce the hysterics that accompany contract negotiations in New York. NYCT might like it, but I doubt you could sell it to Roger. The pols might go for it, but if 100 won't you are left with the same mess.
Not correct.
The union gave up the right to strike permanently in return for the binding arbitration. It's not part of any individual contract.
Many of the contracts have been negotated without the b/a being implememted.
Regardless of whether b/a is or is not used, the union cannot strike. Ever.
>>> The union gave up the right to strike permanently in return for the binding arbitration. It's not part of any individual contract. <<<
Of course it is part of the contract, but because of the binding arbitration clause, there is no possibility of the contract expiring. If the union and management could not agree on terms and the arbitration produced a result that management refused to follow, or management refused to go to arbitration, (thereby breaking the contract) you would quickly see the union threatening to strike. Their agreement not to strike is not absolute, but conditioned on management adhering to the terms of the contract also.
Tom
And binding arbitration (which has been used extensively in the distant past) was something the state and the city despised because in the end, they would have given up more than they ended up giving by threatening the civil servants with jail. $1000,3,3 is less than 4,4,4 which would have been the split between 0,0,0 and 8,8,8 ...
Binding arbs may keep things neat and pretty, but the sledgehammer results in a better deal for the politicos. :)
I told my wife that there was almost zero chance of a strike, particularly in our post-9/11 world. She looked at me like I suddenly sprouted a second head.
I think a lot of the strike talk was media-driven. While driving to the doctor this morning, I was listening to WINS on my radio and every two minutes, they announced that a transit strike "may still happen" and that everyone should stay tuned to 1010 WINS for further info.
I told my wife that there was almost zero chance of a strike, particularly in our post-9/11 world. She looked at me like I suddenly sprouted a second head.
Did you?
Actually, you'd better hope not, haircuts would be expensive.
Nope, still have just one head.
Would make railfanning a little easier, though. One head could be looking out the front window and the other one of the door windows.
Hey Pete, nice post. A little humor can come in handy at a time like this. Here I am sitting three thousand miles away from a potential strike that will not effect me in the least, yet I am angry that such a thing has to take place. It certainly will discomfort New Yorkers and, worse, it will have a negative impact on the economy of a city that still has not recovered from 9-11. Let me also state that I am a little chapped at Governor Pataki. He ought to know better than to let this charade continue. He has to step in and use his good offices to bring some sanity to this problem, and if there is some money available that has been diverted to needless pork barrel projects less important to the state, then the state legislature must also get into the act.
Because it is FUN! Every three years, we have a guaranteed topic that will bring out the worst in people for three weeks or so. Then it goes away and we resume business as usual - Redbirds vs R142s; What's faster - IRT or IND, etc.
We keep going through this because the script says so.
Whether at the local, state, or federal level, ALL of politics is scripted. Every controversy, every debate, every campaign - EVERYTHING (except, perhaps, the death of a candidate or office-holder) is planned far in advance and advances each day only as far as the script allows.
We keep going through this because they don't start to do anything until the last minute so they barely avoid having a strike. The rule of the T/A is, if it makes sense don't do it.
#3 West End Jeff
(So all the postering and name calling and fingerpointing and hate and bile filled SubTalk threads were all for naught.)
For those who avoid insulting people, and don't take offense easily, labor relations discussions are interesting. It is, after all, an important aspect of transit. It would help if people could forgive a word out of line every now and then. It's pretty easy to hit "post" while you are pissed.
For once I will agree with you, JM.
Ever notice, too....when the threat of the NYC transit system strike looming, how all of a sudden all these never-heard-from-before handles show up and start spouting all sorts of trash -- not too much here, but heavily in any groups related to NYC in the Usenet groups. And NEVER does one of them EVER show their real name, just some crap like "Mister MABSTOA" or "THE Subway Train Operator" (no offense to anyone here if I mentioned your exact handle -- just those sorts of handles trying to be know-it-alls start spewing the crap around about how overworked and underpaid they are...the usual.
There have been a whole slew of new names on Subtalk and I just figured they had found out about the website and wanted to join. I guess there is more to it than that. I've read some of their posts and while I wouldn't call it exactly trash I have wondered what their angle was? Maybe your post throws more light on it than meets the eye.
Well, I am in the employment of a transit agency myself, as a bus operator...and believe me, we have our bigmouths that seem to know everything -- or THINK they do -- and did the very same sort of thing when our contract was close to expiration. They set up their own Yahoo Group, they went to Usenet, spouted all sorts of crap how evil the agency is. I say if the place is THAT bad, quit the job and make an opening for someone who might really like doing it. (Oh, I usually add..."Don't let the door hit you where the Lord split you!" too.)
Funny thing was, they were all saying how bad it was -- and it was voted in by a 3 to 1 margin!!!
Back in 1995, we DID get shafted as our county was going through a bankruptcy -- and all the bigmouth know-it-alls claimed the county "owed us this" and "owed us that" -- the county gave us everything they agreed to in the contract, bad as it was, and even a little more. And NOBODY seems to admit they voted the contract in.
Kinda like Massachusetts where nobody ever seems to vote for Ted Kennedy, but he always gets re-elected!!
Steve: It just goes to show you that some guys are not happy unless they're bitching all the time. Believe me, I saw plenty of that type of cynicism when I was a teacher. Some guys made their day by complaining all the time and a few of them were my friends.
I just looove how everyone here says that TA workers have an easy job, and don't deserve a 6% raise. I'd like to point out a story that my father relates to his track safety classes.
New track walkers are trained to face trains when they stand in a clearance area. My father always tells the new guys this story:
He and one other man on his crew had hopped up into a clearance as a train passes. As the train went by, the guy my father was with got sprayed by something. He tasted it. Then he started spitting. "THIS TASTES LIKE PISS!"
The funny part? My father said: "Ah ha, you know what piss tastes like!"
My pops then goes on to relate the moral of the story: "We want you to be able to face the train, so you can face the problem, and go on with life.
When he says 'go on with life', he means that literally. If you're not facing it, you could just jump out... and into the path of another train. So, you have to just stand there and get pissed on. (or pelted with some type of debris).
I think that the workers deserve a raise. After all, they have to STAND THERE and get PISSED ON! Any of you private sector guys have to do that?
And you idiots say MNRR/LIRR has it easier. NYCT track work is almost as dangerous as being a firefighter.
That is a one time thing, not consistent. You can't go to the MTA and say "I got pissed on, I demand a raise". You don't see mothers or fathers asking their employers for a raise because their baby threw his or her breakfast on the father or mother's shoulder. TWU should shut the hell up and realize that the money isn't there this year, whine again next year or something.
Bad example, more like a doctor saying to the hospital "I worked 24 hours straight I demand a raise", when he signed up for the job, when he went through medical school, you can't say that he was blindfolded throughout his learning experience with the risks/what the job entailed. When you hear about track workers getting killed, conductors getting spit on, etc, think twice before you apply for the job.
[" TWU should shut the hell up and realize that the money isn't there this year, whine again next year or something."]
As someone who just retired from 20 yrs working for the city and has been through a number of contract disputes I have to say that the excuse that the city doesn't have the money or can't afford giving a raise is NOT a valid excuse! My answer to them is "TOUGH". If I need a new roof on my house or have a plumbing emergency I cannot tell the workman that I can't afford the going rate and that I will give him less. I have to pay the going rate, PERIOD, even if I have to get a loan to do it.
As someone who just retired from 20 yrs working for the city and has been through a number of contract disputes I have to say that the excuse that the city doesn't have the money or can't afford giving a raise is NOT a valid excuse!
I have to absolutely agree with you on this! A government agency is not like a private employer. If a private company does not make a profit it can argue that there is no money available for raises but a government agency is not designed to make a profit. Given the political climate against privatization of the transit system and a fare structure that does not allow for profit in the true sense of the word - the MTA will always run at a loss. Does that mean that its employees should never get a raise? I'm sorry but 0/0/0 is not a viable offer.
As someone who just retired from 20 yrs working for the city and has been through a number of contract disputes I have to say that the excuse that the city doesn't have the money or can't afford giving a raise is NOT a valid excuse! My answer to them is "TOUGH".
And the city's answer should be "Don't let the door hit you on your way out"
You know that Janitors have to clean up piss and vomit and shit for 8 to 12 hours a day. If pay was decided by how confortable your job is then CEO's would make minimum wage and septic suckers would make millions.
Um, I wish someone would explain to me the following: if the job is so bad, why do you all stay? There are thousands of other people who need jobs and would be willing to do the work for the current wage. If being a NYCT worker is so bad, just quit and do something else, let the people who want the jobs do it.
then why arent they going to the mta to ask for a job, if they are willing to do it for the current wage?
There ARE openings ...
So why aren't they down there applying for the jobs? On Bustalk I think there are openings for Bus Drivers.
Heh. 'nuff said. :)
The number of people who apply, and their qualifications, are a pretty good indication of who is underpaid/overpaid. In the private sector, if you can't recruit you raise wages or do without. So what does recruitment tell us.
1) Wages are relative. At the peak of the boom, public agencies were having trouble recruiting for any job that requires a skill - police officer, military, teacher, and any skilled transit trade. Now it isn't -- because private sector wages are being cut, and private sector jobs are disappearing.
2) Transit worker doesn't seem to be a bad job overall. Lots of people are willing to take it. But many people get pretty fed up once they are there. Why is that? Yet they do not leave. Why is that? My guess is that the wages and benefits are higher than they can get outide, but the work environment is poor. They become dependent on the former, and are stuck with the latter.
As for getting pissed on, there is a certain number of assholes out there. If there was better communication, I'd favor stopping a train, sorting out the person who did it, and letting the punishment fit the crime. It isn't just employees who suffer. Back in the pre-AC days, I was riding a redbird with an open window. As the train was about to go, someone reached in the window and smacked me just for the fun of it.
But many people get pretty fed up once they are there. Why is that? Yet they do not leave. Why is that? My guess is that the wages and benefits are higher than they can get outide, but the work environment is poor. They become dependent on the former, and are stuck with the latter.
Actually, for similar jobs, private contractors make more money.
As for getting pissed on,...
The point was the danger of the job. Everyone thinks that every TA job involves sitting on a seat and sliding a controller around. That's completely wrong.
I think that the workers deserve a raise. After all, they have to STAND THERE and get PISSED ON!
Some people would pay good money for the privilege!
I'd worry about people who'd pay for the privilege of getting pissed on.
Why do we hear this stuff about New Yorkers with stories like what happens to subway workers (getting smacked, splashed with stuff, pissed on, etc.) don't seem to happen on other big systems (Boston, Chicago, London). Does it happen everywhere, or is it a New York thing?
No direct evidence, but train companies in England have prominent posters on stations stating that if any acts of violence or abuse towards their staff occur, the company will press in the courts for the maximum penalties against the offenders.
Why do we hear this stuff about New Yorkers with stories like what happens to subway workers (getting smacked, splashed with stuff, pissed on, etc.) don't seem to happen on other big systems (Boston, Chicago, London). Does it happen everywhere, or is it a New York thing?
Maybe workers in New York are just more likely to complain.
Does the NYC media report on what happens with mass transit in Boston, Chicage and London? I doubt it.
There is a lot of crappy private sector work out there. For example, security guards take all kinds of crap from the public. I was talking with one about a month ago who had been pissed on by someone once because they were angry about the public washrooms in a mall being locked.
-Robert King
Press conference on the hour - turn on the TV
NY1 - significant progress made
fine -- be that way -- no one respond to my post, the FIRST one about the postponement of the strike :(
Psst.. Hey brah, when you tell people "turn on the TV"
do ya really think they'll be sitting at the PC?
I even took your advice and hit the TV for 2 hours... :o
I was busy sleeping. But I did have the radio on when I woke up this morning.
Thanks. I appreciate it :)
Unlike some people, there are those of us with better things to do at midnight. For example, there is always SLEEPING! This is a good thing to do at that time, especially when you need to get up at 0255 to go to work.
Yeah, I'll be doing that next month when I start working. But for now I'm living life to its fullest!
I was in bed sleeping. In case the strike is averted, I have to get up for work.
Yeah, gotta shape up bro ... time to do the TA shuffle. :)
hey guys, just remember its POSTPONED, NOT ERRATICATED. it is possible it can happen tonight at midnight after the Rally.
Talks continue past the deadline, a good sign so far ...
'Clock is stopped....preparing for some sudden death overtime...any free throws from the foul-line before the clock starts ticking?' OOPS!
I heard something about a clock being stopped and went into my 'Marv Albert NBA' mood :)
Nah, the battery just went dead. Once we get a push, the motor generator should charge it back up again. :)
Trains roll for Monday at least ... I wonder if it's possible to get that increment for TWU if we send Marv and Mike Tyson to bite some butt up at the Hyatt? Tonya Harding can referee ...
Hahahahahaha!!! Wishful tinking, Unca Kev! Tanks for da thought, though...heading to bed now that I know I DON'T have ta be da designated driving to woik in da a.m.
Heh. You mean the BRT won't be running tomorrow? Hell, if we'd known that I'd bet Paturkey would have folded by dinnerchime. :)
I'm listening to WINS 1010 AM and there will be no transit strike for the time being. Negotiations are continuing, so are the trains and the buses.
#3 West End Jeff
All they did was stop the clock since headway on certain issues have been made. No settlement yet.
Ed Watt (TWU guy) didn't look too happy (am watching the satellite feed from the Hyatt) but said "some movement has occurred on "dignity issues" but NO movement on the wage issues. However ENOUGH movement has been shown that FOR NOW, the negotiations will continue with the clock stopped at 12:00.
MTA doesn't appear to want to budge on the money and it is THIS issue that is not only important to TWU, but clearly TWU was setup by Paturkey to skank all the OTHER unions and thus TWU is under even MORE pressure than they might have realized at first. If TWU caves, it'll be used against all the other state employees.
Here's hoping ... but we're DEFINITELY not there yet.
We have an "official here" now saying that TWU members are being told to REPORT TO WORK for Monday and it'll be played by ear from there, but TWU stewards will be getting the word in the next few minutes to tell everyone to show up Monday - those of you "on the line" should be getting the word when you hit your terminal, and the messages on the twulocal100 site should be updated in a few minutes ...
It's 4:45am am by me. No word yet so I'll be going to work soon.
Right, Unca Kev! The TWU's gotta hang tough and not just accept the 'dignity issue'....they've gotta look at the whole picture and go for some cost of living increases (at the very least) so that the other state and municipal employees will see some light at the end of their own dark and skanky tunnels...at least that's what I'm hoping for...besides, Paturkey CAN afford it...I mean where the HELL is the surplus from increased ridership and the MetroCards?
Bruno's about to spend $3.5 million BRAND NEW dollars in Albany, he's about to build a BRAND NEW railroad station in Saratoga, and he's STILL spreading Change NY dollars to businesses go left and right like a drunken sailor. Obviously any talk of shortfalls CAN'T be true or someone would have told Senator Joe to cool it, we're broke. :)
There's money ... just not for YOU. Bullpucky to THAT! And yes, I hang my head in shame for not having seen the setup earlier. But there it was in the TU, and even THEY didn't get the game. I could smell the scam from 13.6 miles away. Heh.
It looks like there may not be a strike. We'll know by the morning rush.
#3 West End Jeff
Morning rush will be normal, according to news reports. However, especially if you drive into the city, the 4-person carpools will still go into effect for the PM Rush if a strike occurs! -Nick
Let us hope that there is no strike during the P.M. rush. Will keep our fingers crossed.
#3 West End Jeff
Let us hope that there is no strike during the P.M. rush. Will keep our fingers crossed.
*THAT* is EXACTLY when I'd start a strike....
maybe not this day but perhaps on Thursday, say at 1 PM....
Elias
"maybe not this day but perhaps on Thursday, say at 1 PM...."
The UTW has a better sense of public relations than to do that. Think of all the stories in the next day's paper of children left alone because of transportation foul-ups.
They always strike in the middle of the night because then at least no one is stranded in a way that could be dangerous.
They always strike in the middle of the night because then at least no one is stranded in a way that could be dangerous.
New York is enough of a 24/7 city that a sudden strike in the middle of the night could indeed leave many people stranded. One might argue that being stranded at such hours is more dangerous than being stranded during the daytime. The numbers involved would, of course, be much lower.
I know of another time to start s strike. Try Friday P.M. You can also try Tues. December 24th, the day before Christmas.
#3 West End Jeff
"I know of another time to start s strike. Try Friday P.M. You can also try Tues. December 24th, the day before Christmas."
If the union doesn't strike soon (by Wed. or so) they lose their leverage until Jan. 6. When Christmas and New Year's fall in midweek like this, NYC operates pretty much on 2/3 speed for the 16 days from Sat., Dec. 21 to Sunday, Jan. 5. Employers will have those who can come in do so, and those who can't will get a holiday vacation whether they want it or not. Lots of employees with accrued vacation time are already planning Dec. 20 as their last day of work this year.
The stores will lose some business, but a lot of people are shopping early just in case.
All they would do by striking on Friday or Dec. 24 afternoon is make people miserable, not disrupt the economy of the city.
I'm sure that there are some that would like to strike just to make people miserable.
#3 West End Jeff
No strike at all as of this afternoon. A tentative agreement was reached.
At least that is some good news so far. Let's hope that a strike does not occur at all.
#3 West End Jeff
Is anyone listening to the silliness on the transit frequencies this morning? hello 1999
Wanna share some of it with the rest of us 'non-scanner' owners?
Confusion's the word to be heard...more details later.
I guess some NYCT bus drivers, T/O's and C/R's not sure whether there is a strike or not? Yeah, I suppose that could lead to some interesting scanner ease-dropping.
i want the juicy details! How much does one of these scanners cost? And how close to the subway do you need to be to pick up stuff?
$80 to $200 at Radio Shaque. Go right in, the clerks are very helpful.
Whbat frequencies? What kind of scanner? Same a police? Someone explain with more than a single sentence!!!
-Andrew
YOu get a basic Radio Shaque 200 channel scanner, it covers most of the VHF band excluding FM radio/TV from 1 to 200 or so MHz and then stuff in the 500MHz range. Yes it should pick up police as well. For frequencies you can buy the Radio Shaque regional frequency guide or you can look online.
Exactly what would you like to hear?
Everything
Just a reminder to everyone that repeating anything you hear on the scanner is against NY State law and also a violation of FCC rules.
So if you decide to post anything don't say you heard it over the scanner.
And let's not also forget that listening to cell phones, transmitting computer viruses and intercepting ANY communications is a violation of the law, even worse if you DISCLOSE it, regardless of the transmission means. Reality is, if you do it WIRELESS, expect that folks will be listening. Most people who have acquired scanners over the years with "lockouts" for particular frequencies (police, fire, cellular, transit) are aware that some "diode tricks" can be done to UNLOCK those communications. And since they're NOT encrypted, ain't hard. (and don't BOTHER to email me asking how, I don't listen in the wrong places since I have an FCC LIFETIME First class license and have no intentions of losing it, but I sure ain't gonna help anyone ELSE do it either).
Lots of things are illegal, but that doesn't stop people. Especially when you consider that Ken Lay isn't breaking rocks either, seems to justify "illegal" activities among many since the law is the law ONLY if it's actually enforced. :)
Say your friend heard it and told you or your heard it off of a radio an MTA staffer left turned up too loud.
Just a reminder to everyone that repeating anything you hear on the scanner is against NY State law and also a violation of FCC rules.
Not entirely true. Monitoring police frequencies while mobile or portable is against state law, but divulging what you've heard is against federal law (Communications Act of 1934).
In short, when you take your scanner or VHF receiver into the subway, you may legally listen to operations communications, but not to police. It's a misdemeanor if you're caught, and they have the power to confiscate. Play it safe and stick to operations frequencies only.
Also don't forget that it's system policy that any type of radio must be played through earphones or a headset.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Amateur Radio Operator W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
i want the juicy details! How much does one of these scanners cost? And how close to the subway do you need to be to pick up stuff?
A scanner is a VHF/UHF receiver that can be programmed to rapidly sample each frequency programmed into its memory for activity. Once activity is found, it will stop on that frequency and allow you to listen to the activity on it. Once the radio transmission is finished, it can either resume scanning or stay on the frequency you tell it to stay on.
There are a number of good vendors of scanning equipment, the most common being Radio Shack and Uniden. A cheap unit can sell for under $100, and a good one for about $400 or even more. For portable use, the new Uniden BC-250D will set you back around $379, but will be able to monitor almost anything that transmits (except cellular phones and anything that's encrypted).
You do not need anything fancy to listen to NYCT activity, however, and an old cheaper unit should work OK as well. NYCT uses VHF frequencies in the railroad frequency band (between about 159 and 161 MHz there are 97 AAR channels for railroad use only). Signal maintainers use something else, and SIRT and PATH are up on UHF.
It's also possible to purchase used two-way radio equipment and have it programmed with the receive frequencies only (it's unlawful and potentially dangerous to transmit on these frequencies unless you're a TA employee authorized to do so). The advantage of a commerical two-way radio is the receivers are generally MUCH more sensitive to weak signals than scanners. Scanners, on the other hand, are much more versatile and will allow you to monitor many different services with greater ease.
Of interest to subway fans are two different types of radio transmissions. The first is operations (train and wayside/control) and the second is the NYPD Transit division. It's illegal to monitor police transmissions while portable or mobile in New York State (it's OK to listen from a fixed location, however), so it would NOT be a good idea for a transit cop to hear his dispatcher's voice coming out of your scanner while you're waiting for a train! And while you're at it, plug your headphones into the radio while you're riding--it's against the TA's rules not to, and it really is annoying to people who don't care about your obsession with trains and just want a quiet ride home!
There are a number of good frequency guides (the inside-rear cover of my book is but one example) to tell you what you need to enter into your scanner to monitor the TA,. However, in a nutshell, here are the operations frequencies. On these frequencies you will be able to hear everything relating to the running of trains in the NYC subway:
A-division: 161.190
B1-Division (old BMT trackage): 161.505
B2-Division (old IND trackage): 161.565
Simplex Yard channel: 160.845
Note that the #7 line uses the BMT channel. Shades of the Dual Contracts indeed.
Visit http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/radio.html for more information.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Amateur Radio Operator W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
Do NOT ever suggest programmed commercial radios. Period!!!! I will not get into any arguements about compliance or security.
RadioShack has a trunk tracker at closeout for 79.95 but you have to learn to program groupings for that feature...the latest scanners have a learn feature but cost much more. DVP decoding is not available BUT some new scanners coming out WILL be analogue/digital compatible.
QSL n TNX de WB2SGT extra class ck 73. Wanna hear some of my work???
'This is WWV Fort Collins National Bureau of Standards........' TMC GPT-10K units running at 3500 watts AME. Gimme a weekend sked and I'll wire something up on the estate (eight acres) fed by my circa 1974 Yaesu KW (I can crank about 800 watts of AME on eighty.)
WB2 Subway General Technician is OnTheJuice. God Bless. CI Peter
Do NOT ever suggest programmed commercial radios. Period!!!! I will not get into any arguements about compliance or security.
Nothing wrong with getting an old Motorola MT-1000 or similar programmed by a shop to receive only. I have exactly that and I'm happy as a clam with it, despite the fact it has a really crappy internal speaker and I don't like the speaker-mic.
There is absolutely no possibility of transmitting accidentally since the TX is blank on every public-service channel, but it beats my amateur receiver six ways from Sunday, and can outperform any scanner ever made. I also receive FDNY on the same radio as well as the NOAA broadcasts, and even transceive on 146.52 with it when I'm railfanning or firebuffing with other hams.
There is nothing illegal or immoral or even grey-area about this. It's completely legal to own any kind of radio you want--EXCEPT one programmed or crystalled-up to Transmit on frequencies for which you are not authorized.
That you choose not to do so yourself if understandable and commendable, but to suggest that a serious monitoring enthusiast not be able to get the best quality equipment is doing the railfan commnity a disservice.
When I Elmered new hams I always encouraged them to get an HF radio, but get the driver and finals removed before taking delivery and install them once licensed. Responsible radio ownership and usage is to be encouraged, in my opinion.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Amateur Extra W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
How close does one have to be to the source of a NYCT transmission on the frequencies you list above in order to be able to pick it up on a scanner? Within 5 miles?
--Mark
I live In Edison, NJ and can pick up transmissions on the Rockaway Lines when they come above ground. I can pick up PATH, Staten Island, and NJT. I don't know why I don't get the Brooklyn elevateds out of Coney Island. I don't get the Bronx elevated although I get fire and police transmissions. I'm using a scanner hooked up to a roof antenna. Your home location has something to do with it but as you can see I'm picking up 25 miles. You won't get what's underground unless your on the train or near the tunnels.
I don't think they are running much power in the south. I know there's a repeater at New Utrecht/62nd Street. The antenna is mounted on top of the station, but it's not that high above the street. On the IND, the antenna at 4th Avenue is way up there, so they should be easier to receive. You're probably hearing Liberty Junction if you're getting trains from the Rockaways.
This is all from observation and carring a ham rig on the subway for many years.
I appreciate that. After I posted I thought about why I receive the Rockaways and not Coney Island. One reason is your explanation about the location of the repeaters and these frequencies are line of sight. Between me and repeater on New Utrecht is Todt Hill on Staten Island. Something like 400 feet high (and the dump which they say is just as high). I can receive the Staten Island Rapid because the repeater is on one of the towers of the Verrazano Bridge. I wish I could hear the rest of ths system.
Thank you! I doubt I'd pick much up then ... your location is probably closer than mine.
--Mark
Monitoring Surface 800 system, alot of the guys are calling in to see whats the story is...basically it's stay in service till you hear otherwise...the dispatchers knows as much as the b/o's know...the hawk buses are coming out just fine as well
At this hour the only people who have their scanners are are the people who had to work Sunday Night. They'll be getting out of work after 6am. The rest of us were in bed sleeping and are listening to the radio. The last I heard, they're still talking.
What is everyones opinion on the best handheld scanner for subway and bus frequencys? I really do not have the room to have a desk one, I need mobility.
Uniden (Bearcat) models are hard to get at the moment (I think they are upgrading their line of scanners). Bearcat is considered one of the best. You can check out their website www.uniden.com.
The BC80XLT model looks like a good one. They still have the BC60XLT (which I have). It appears that all the scannesr they have on their online store are factory refurbished ones. The prices look pretty good.
You can check out the ones that Radio Shack has. Most people I know have those. The model you want depends on how much you are willing to spend.
A word of advice - when using a handheld scanner in public it is wise to also use headphones. This way you don't disturb others and also there is less of a "risk" of you being mistaken for a TA employee by irate passengers and set upon accordingly in the event of a delay. Also do not have it operating or visable if you are in a passenger car - that is illegal in NY State. Also - as mentioned in an earlier post - it is illegal to repeat anyhting you hear on a scanner.
Good luck and happy scanning.
A good way to CYA when listening to a scanner in a car is to get an Amateur Radio license and buy a Mobile or handheld transceiver which has all the functions of a scanner built in. Licensed Amateurs are federally exempt from vehicle/scanner laws
A good way to CYA when listening to a scanner in a car is to get an Amateur Radio license and buy a Mobile or handheld transceiver which has all the functions of a scanner built in. Licensed Amateurs are federally exempt from vehicle/scanner laws
Indeed, a good idea, but not everywhere is this true. Michigan and NY are really anal about scanners. The way many scanner laws are written is that it's illegal to possess any radio equipment capable of receiving police transmissions, but most if not all states do in fact exempt licensed hams from this requirement. That doesn't mean that they can listen, only that they can possess equipment capable of receiving police frequencies. NY enforces the no-scanner rules unless you have at least a Amateur technician-class license. There seems to also be an exemption if you have a county-issued permit (maybe to allow for folks like volunteer firefighters and EMS people to listen in to the sheriff's frequencies).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Amateur Radio Operator W2IRT (extra-class)
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.4 Now Available!
It's sort of funny that states like New York get all hot and bothered about police-frequency scanners in vehicles. One would presume that these laws are designed to prevent criminal types from monitoring police transmissions while they're carrying out their nefarious activities. Point is, if they're out committing serious crimes in the first place, they're not likely to be too concerned about minor anti-scanner laws.
"Point is, if they're out committing serious crimes in the first place, they're not likely to be too concerned about minor anti-scanner laws."
But it gives the police one more tool. If they don't have enough evidence to prove the crime, at least they can get the guy for the scanner. Also, if they see the scanner, it gives them the right to search the person.
This principle works very nicely. It's amazing how many illegal substances the police find while searching those arrested for public urination.
In fact, one theory is that the murder rate has gone down in large part because few criminals dare carry a gun for fear of it being found after a search for a minor infraction.
LOL, people mistake me for an Amtrak employee all the time. After I explain what I'm doing they use me to find out what the reason is that we're late/stopped.
LOL, people mistake me for an Amtrak employee all the time.
Once upon a time I worked as a building superintendant, and I had a yellow hard hat, a yellow flashlight on a belt loop, and a big bunch of keys.
I also went to night school at NYCCC (in Brooklyn of course). When it was time to go home, I went to the Flatbush Station and the LIRR. I always rode in the last car, where I could stick my head out the window. Many passengers thought I worked for the RR. One lady was running up to the train after the doors had closed, looking at me as if I could stop the train and open the doors for her. All I could do was shrug.
Many nights the conductor never asked for my ticket, not that I had ever gotten away with anything, they didn't even bother to punch the monthly tickets in those days.
Elias
I forget them offhand... what are some good ones.
MTA New York City Subway
161.190 Division A dispatcher-to-train (IRT)
158.880 Division A train-to-dispatcher
161.505 Division B dispatcher-to-train (BMT)
158.775 Disision B train-to-dispatcher
161.565 Division B dispatcher-to-train (IND)
158.805 Division B train-to-dispatcher
160.845 Yard IND/BMT/IRT/SBK
470.4375 MOW
160.565 South Brooklyn Railway
470.4375 Staten Island Railway
160.470 Path
I will only repeat what everyone else has said. Get a portable scanner so you can wear it OUT OF SIGHT inside in a coatpocket. Use an earphone. Never repeat what you hear cause sometimes it's not "signal problems" up ahead. One time my train had a fire between stations. A railfanner would not repeat that outloud on a crowded rush hour train. The closer you live to the city the more you will pick up if your not listening on a train. From my house in Edison, NJ I can pick up the IND Rockaway line, Staten Island, Path, and NJT Coast-NEC-Raritan Valley-Gladstone. On a subway you can pick-up master control, the dispatcher for that part of the line, the TO & CR, the police. Scanning is one of the enjoyable parts of railfanning. The more you can afford for a handheld the better the unit's sensitivity is for listening on a train. Maybe someone can explain this better but with a cheap radio being to close to the transmission point the message is garbled.
The transmission is so strong that your scanner is picking it up on the next open frequency you have programmed in rather than waiting until it gets to the right one. I have this happen to me a lot when I am at 125th/Lex. I try to lock mine on the main frequency of the division I am riding on but sometimes I leave it on scan if I am going from a train on one divisin to a train on an another.
It happens on all scanning radios - cheap or expensive.
From my apt in the NE Bronx, I can pick up most of A division and various parts of B1 and B2 (depends on atmospheric conditions) to at least the Mahattan Bridge and sometimes further south.
How about the bus frequencys? I remember seeing a site a while ago with frequency listings but I am not sure what they were.
danke shun.
i rarely let anyone see it, but the scanner, mini tripod and camera are always with me... you never know when you'll need ehm.
the little SLIK comes in useful...the scanner is good for getting the know ahead of time, the camera is good for....oh we both know
oh yeah.
i was surprised, there was no call for a 10-51 saturday, with the 200+ drunken santas on the loose. you have seen them photos of this event, right?
yes i have...quite a riot..you sure no 51s? maybe theres a new permit for public drunkiness
'What is the frequency Kenneth?' I wear my Yaesu VX-5 everday with a speakermike (which I just lost.) Had a great time today at City Hall with my scanner in railroad clothes. Sound comes out by my NYCTA lapel pin. Cops look at me, "Hey officer, have a great day!" Always listen to 160.905 Division A TPD for 'news of crime on Birds.'\
In the shop it's 160.810 'tower' to catch 'rapid movement of trainsets' so I can look out for my crew. CI Peter
I never heard of 160.810 as a TA frequency. What do you hear on that?
Can't find my references right now but I'm pretty sure Division A Yard Operations is 160.810 PL 127.3 (I listen to alert my shop crew.)
I also listen to 160.905 PL 103.5 Division A Transit Police. I can comm on 50/144/440 NBFM but maintain my radio locked out of unauthorised frequencies for security reasons. CI Peter
I thought the yard frequency for TA was 160.845. "A" Division has a seperate frequency?
Peter,
Double check that. I progarmmed my scanner for 160.810 and heard nothing for hours.
According to my records 160.815 is an Amtrak frequency for Road and/or conductor's walkie-talkies.
160/161 is railroad except for special gov't applications like NYC parks Department. I set up an odd simplex split many years ago for Parks and had to reorientate jay pole antennas so as not to interfere with rail in NJ.
160.215 to 161.565 is the railroad band. NYC Parks department is in the 151 MHZ area.
When I look at the way the TWU acted in handling the contract situation, I lose a lot of respect for them. This entire ordeal was very unprofessional and did nothing except cause a large amount of panic in the city.
We must look back and ask some questions. Did the teachers strike after 2 years without a contract? No. Sure they talked about it, but it never came to anything like this. They continued to teach NYC students with no raise in pay and few benefits, and frankly no job security. How about police and firefighters? They work in jobs much more dangerous than transit workers and in some cases get paid even less.
This was probably the worst possible time to threaten to strike. There is no money after 9/11. It's just not there. The TWU doesn't seem to understand that money can't be magically pulled out of the air. The MTA never had a surplus. That was a bunch of phony baloney. They had just made more money one year than last. This put them slightly less in debt, but they were and are in debt just the same.
Look at all the people who have been laid off in the past year due to lack of revenue in their companies. What will they do? How many people have gone without a raise or without a Christmas bonus? They aren't going on strike. It's because they understand that a strike won't make money appear.
The city and state are broke. Instead of watching the TWU threatening to strike over this, maybe we should be asking where the heck is the federal aid money we were promised after September 11? "Our nation will help rebuild NYC." Rebuild what? Here we are, $3 billion + in debt and who's helping us? Aren't all the politicians we voted for in Albany supposed to be lobbying for federal aid? When was the last time you heard the names Chuck Schumer or Hillary Clinton in the news? I can't remember hearing a report on their work in Washigton, acquiring funds for the state.
Maybe we should all go on strike from paying taxes, since most of it goes to build Joe Midwest Farmer a new house after the the cow stampede knocks it down and not to New York's failing economy. Oh, I forgot, that's tax evasion and it's illegal. Well I'm glad my hard earned money is going to pay for the renting of the Grand Hyatt in Manhattan so that the TWU and MTA can beat each other over the head on such a stupid issue.
Just my $.02.
R40M - Mike D.
For what it's worth, Hillary and Chuckie DID battle hard for the money and ALMOST got it. Alas, a moron named Paturkey decided to up the needed money to the ludicrous to spend on his campaign upstate and pursuaded his OWN party's Congress that New York was stupid and greedy, so Shrub and Congress blew off New York. After all, we voted wrong.
I'll leave the rest to the same common denominator, them zany republicans. There's PLENTY of money - ask local 1199, ask the Business Council, ask all those others STILL collecting their corporate welfare into the coming fiscal year. I don't blame the TWU at ALL for what's transpired. Look at it again and see how politicians and a completely CLUELESS media whipped this all up for their own purposes ...
SOMEBODY had to fight the politicians, TWU was the only group so far that's shown up. And if you think the transit situation is something to behold, only three more weeks until Paturkey drops the Budget bomb right on your doorstep. I saw some of the numbers for the first time last night and as Mel Brooks would say, "woof!" ... you'll forget all ABOUT the TWU next month when Paturkey finally has to fess up with his "State of the State address" ... it'll be on your PBS affiliate, don't miss it. :(
So you think that the way TWU acted was unprofessional in the handling of the contract situation. Tell me then, how were we supposed to act? Should we have remained passive and embraced anything the MTA offered us (in this case, 0-0-0 across the board and -2.3 towards our pension)?
I'm sure you think so, but then again you don't what it is like to be a worker in the system. Tell that to the two C line conductors who were hit in the face with bottles last week while on their trains, guilty of doing nothing but their jobs. Tell that to the families of the two track workers who died while doing their jobs.
There's no money? Open up the books and show me what's been done to justify having a $1 billion deficit. They said the same thing last contract, which was in 1999, and then in 2000 "found" a surplus. But it was too late. We were locked into the contract that we were working under. There was no mention of a projected deficit in 2000 or 2001. Now all of a sudden at contract time they're broke? Please.
Explain to me how ridership is at it's highest ever, yet a $2 fare looms in the year 2003. More people are taking mass transit, MetroCard sales are up, subways and buses are running more frequently. Yet the workers are asked to produce more, and the raises will be based on that. Just how do you do that?
Just a little something for you to think about.
Dude, it may not be fair what the MTA is doing, but you and your fellow TA workers' attitudes during this whole mess is what pisses us all off to the point we wish you would strike and face penalties and see what the rest of us are facing out here in the real world.
Remember the baseball strike last summer or the threat of one? I am a major sports fan, but I won't go near a baseball game. These guys are overpaid a-holes who are just greedy. Likewise, Toussaint and his idiotic mouthpieces, Schwartz and Watt, tend to flame the fires of discontent and paint a "woe is me" scenario. Then they put a gun to Bloomberg's head, not to mention seven million other New Yorkers and you want us to side with you? Uh huh.....
One idiot on this board said we in the working public look down on civil service people. Yeah, right. I don't. I look down on greedy assholes who have no heart. You want 24% over three years and significant upgrades in health care, pension, etc. Don't we all? In light of the economic troubles in this City, don't you think Toussaint is grandstanding since a man with no college education and has come up through the ranks, wants to bloody the nose of those who he thinks are above him? I refuse to be caught in this politcal game of egos and you should too. Meanwhile Louie the Saint is wasting $25,000 of the unions money for each commerical they run on NY1. Kinda smart, huh?
Consider yourself lucky regarding the climate out there. I was RIF'd in February and have had to struggle to find even temp work. So have my friends and former collegues. I have had to pay my bills and health insurance and my package was pretty crappy. But you know what? I survived. I was RIF'd because of technological changes and efficiency changes. But I don't go whining about it as your token clerks do. Its reality, its a fact so retrain and deal with it.
They City has lost a sigbificant amount of business since 9/11. Has the TWU not heard about 9/11? It seems that way. We are all pitching in to rebuild this City so we can all benefit. Your Union's threats are the most disgusting, vile form of "business terrorism" I have seen to date, and I have seen a lot of crap gp down on Wall Street. You are a public employee and you gave up your right to strike when you signed on. What don't you understand about that? No one forced you to sign. Your Union's threat have already cost this City money in tourism not to mention in other ways. That's fair? And your timing? You people are in many ways worse than baseball players. Your greed is numbing and your leadership totally misguided.
I know many people (including relatives) who are contract employees. it means if they don't show up for work, they don't get paid. You cannot, by law, prevent people from seeking their livelihood. You cannot prevent, by law, citizens from vital services. If it were me and you decided to strike, I'd sue your ass personally. I know anybody who loses revenue due to a strike can sue the union for damages.
Be thankful you have a job and good benefits and don't have to face what we all do out here. Its brutal.
And if you do go on strike, expect to get sued. You deserve it.
Our attitudes are what pisses you off? The MTA got the union's proposal a month before the contract was set to expire. When did they answer with a counter proposal? 10 days before. And with three zeros. What did you expect, dancing and singing in the streets? They were playing games. They knew it and they played off it, successfully I might add, because they knew the public would get caught in the middle and look at the average transit worker (conductors, train operators, station agents, bus operators, cleaners) with contempt and disdain, which is exactly what your posts radiate.
Contrary to what you might think, I live in the same "real" world as you do. I face the same things. Times are hard on me, too, same as they are on anyone else. Just because I'm a transit worker who wears an MTA patch does not mean that I'm exempt from problems and I don't face the same troubles the average New Yorker faces. I pay a mortgage. My property taxes will go up too. I drive a car. I'll have to pay tolls over the East River bridges, too. I'm no different.
Yes, I make good money. For that I am extremely grateful. I'm not going to deny that. But I've put in 6 day work weeks. I do extra trips when I've finished my job because nobody wants to ABD them. I've jumped ahead on trips before my scheduled start "for the good of the service". I'm responsible for the public's safety from the time they enter my train until the time they step off. And in this line of work there is no guarantee that I'm going to come home in one piece. Anything can happen at any given and I can be thrust into any situation. If anything goes down, all I have is a radio to call for assistance; and that's no good if the battery is dead. I earn every penny I make, trust me.
My sick record is unblemished. I have dragged myself off to work when I was sick as a dog. Head spinning, sore throat, and nausea notwithstanding, I got on that train and did my job without a complaint.
I am loyal to my job. Why should I not expect some sort of wage increase? Why am I being greedy?
I am tired of hearing everyone say that the union is asking for too much with a request for 24%. None of the members expect to get that. Everybody knows that when labor and management meet to negotiate a contract that starts off high and comes down and management starts off low goes up until they meet in the middle and agree. It's called collective bargaining. To say that the union wants too much is absurd. If we asked for 10% at the start, we would probably end up with 2 or 3%.
You ask if we've heard of 9/11. Many transit workers were there on the scene helping get people out of the area. You'd never know that because only police, firefighters, and EMS were shown as the only real heroes. I may not have been picking through the rubble looking for survivors, or rushing into those burning buildings getting people out; but I sucked in those noxious fumes every time I went underneath that site. Why? To keep this city's service running. I stayed on that train when people reported seeing a powder-like substance on the train fearing it to be anthrax. Why? Because I put the general public's safety before my own.
Yes, I signed on to be a public servant, but I didn't sign on to be abused. And until I am treated with respect, and paid what I am worth for what I do, my co-workers and I will continue to be a loud voice in opposition. Don't want to hear it? I suggest an investment in earmuffs.
I suggest an investment in earmuffs.
In this case, blinders.
Bravo!!
The service depends on people like you. If everybody had your outlook, there would be fewer service disruptions and less passengers pissed off.
I did the job on the serface in the early 60's with streetcars. I went to work at screwball times, worked straights nobody else would take, swings that started long before the sun came up and ended when the stars were out. 'course I did get middays off then. I worked with colds in the winter and once with a sprain. Hurt like hell. Pulled out at 5:32 AM Monday morning on the worst line in Baltimore - the 15. Dollar bill line. Every day, every trip. Dollar bills, dollar bills. Cash fare was a quarter. Got to stop a street man (supervisor) every day for more change by North Avenue. Hated that run. Couldn't wait for the fall pick. Did I ever mark off? Hell, no. Mark off and somebody else gets to work that dog.
My leader and my follower both put up with the same conditions. Did we refuse to do what the company was paying us to do? NO!
Then there was the gravy run to end all gravy runs - 804. All Night on the 8 line. 45 minute layover at Catonsville. Great for naps. Cut the the car lights and curl up on the long seat. Pull the compressor fuse, the car takes 40 minutes to bleed below 55 PSI. Alarm bell goes off, you wake up. Takes 4 minutes to reset the fuse and pump the car up. Leave on time.
There were good times and there were bad, like anyplace.
Don't ever lose that attitude you have. It's what makes a good employee.
Don't compare us to baseball players, we make nothing near what they make! Please read post #421317 about how business is up in the subways and the comparison between costs of health benefit plans among the MTA entities. You don't have any idea how the collective bargaining process works. Union asks for 24% over 3 years. Collective bargaining means that labor works down from that figure and management works their way up from theirs. Labor has already worked their way down from 32%, or have you forgottent that already? Management hasn't changed their stance very much up to this point. I am sorry that you've had employment problems. But the MTA is taking in a lot of money, unfortunately yours wasn't. The average salaries of behind the scenes employees are much higher than those of the front line employees, yet you don't complain about them because their salaries are kept quiet. The MTA has money coming in upfront, lots of it, thanks to MetroCard. As a public tax supported agency, they would open the books if they have nothing to hide.
Sorry, the 32% figure should be 18%, my error.
Caught in the middle? HAHAHA! You'll find out that if you live on earth, you are a pawn in something. You WILL be paying a $2 fare starting in April, you WILL lose your federal tax cut AND THEN SOME due to state taxes. You WILL be bailing out the giveaways that happened during the time of plenty that should have been deposits in the rainy day fund. If you decide to escape New York, both the east and west coast states are in the same shape.
California's in REALLY bad shape from what I hear. But I'm sure most other states aren't in as bad shape as Cal and NY.
Dude,
You've said dude enough times for the next 3 years, including the next set of transit collective bargaining talks. Maybe it's your whole 'dude' attitude that's blinding you.
it may not be fair what the MTA is doing, but you and your fellow TA workers' attitudes during this whole mess is what pisses us all off to the point we wish you would strike and face penalties and see what the rest of us are facing out here in the real world.
What attitude is it that they've displayed? Almost everyone has said that they do not want to strike, but that the Transit Authority has not made any real offers. And they haven't. 0/0/0? That's a real offer? Get real.
I'd like to know what 'real' world you exist in that is so vastly different from the world of transit workers. Just because you can't get a raise (or even a job) doesn't mean that transit workers don't deserve one. That is what we commonly refer to as jealousy and envy. And, it's selfishness on your part. More on this later.
Remember the baseball strike last summer or the threat of one? I am a major sports fan, but I won't go near a baseball game. These guys are overpaid a-holes who are just greedy. Likewise, Toussaint and his idiotic mouthpieces, Schwartz and Watt, tend to flame the fires of discontent and paint a "woe is me" scenario.
....you compare transit workers to baseball players. Let's look at the logic you have provided here.
1. Baseball, like public transportation is a public service.
2. Transit employees are paid ridiculously high salaries.
3. You will never go near a subway or bus again.
I mean, is your brain completely fried?
Then they put a gun to Bloomberg's head, not to mention seven million other New Yorkers and you want us to side with you? Uh huh.....
Number one, Bloomberg really has nothing to do with this, and they were merely inviting him to the negotiations. If there were a Democratic MAyor, you can bet that he'd be there in a flash. But The republicans won't squabble among themselves.
For the record: There are many people who side with the TWU. Not every NYer has the: "If I can't have it, no one can" mentality that you possess.
One idiot on this board said we in the working public look down on civil service people. Yeah, right. I don't. I look down on greedy assholes who have no heart.
Everytime I see you call the collective group of TA workers "greedy assholes who have no heart", I just get angrier. They are greedy because they ask for a raise? How the fuck does this make you greedy? Kenneth Lay=greed. Station porter cleaning up vomit & piss for a living asks for raise=honest living. Adjust your view accordingly.
You want 24% over three years and significant upgrades in health care, pension, etc. Don't we all? In light of the economic troubles in this City, don't you think Toussaint is grandstanding since a man with no college education and has come up through the ranks, wants to bloody the nose of those who he thinks are above him?
You really must be an idiot. The original demand was 8% (24% through 3 years). That has since been lowered to 6% (18% through 3 years.) NO ONE IS SAYING 24% ANYMORE!!!! And, perhaps you should venture into the real world that you keep saying the TA workers do not exist in. When people bargain, they always meet at a center point. I don't think that anyone expects to recive 6% every year. But When I go down, you come up a little. We meet at the middle. Since you evidently don't understand this though, you should probably go try it out sometime.
BTW: Insulting Toussaint for not having a college degree is not a valid argument. But nice try.
I refuse to be caught in this politcal game of egos and you should too.
Sounds like you're doing the exact opposite.
Meanwhile Louie the Saint is wasting $25,000 of the unions money for each commerical they run on NY1. Kinda smart, huh?
The commercials are to put out the perspective of the TWU. But you of course knew this.
Consider yourself lucky regarding the climate out there. I was RIF'd in February and have had to struggle to find even temp work. So have my friends and former collegues. I have had to pay my bills and health insurance and my package was pretty crappy. But you know what? I survived. I was RIF'd because of technological changes and efficiency changes.
Guess what? Just because you got 'terminated' does not mean that others do not deserve a raise. But of course, you do not understand this. You don't understand that Transit workers have always gotten good benefits. It's a perk in the job. Especially when you consider what a private contractor doing the same job hired by the TA will make.
But I don't go whining about it as your token clerks do. Its reality, its a fact so retrain and deal with it.
A token clerk has one of the most dangerous jobs around. I don't wanna hear some bs comparing their job to a bank teller either, because bank tellers are in a bank with 10 other people and armed security guards. All a clerk has is the armor of the booth, and they must leave the booth at least once a day.
They City has lost a sigbificant amount of business since 9/11.
Yet NYC Transit's ridership levels remain just as high. Their taking the same number of fares, so your point here is wholly irrelevant.
Has the TWU not heard about 9/11?
Not only did they safely evacuate people from the Area around the Trade Center, but they were also there putting in overtime digging out people and assisting in the coordination of the use heavy machinery. What did you do to help.
Your Union's threats are the most disgusting, vile form of "business terrorism" I have seen to date, and I have seen a lot of crap gp down on Wall Street.
A threat to strike is not a 'vile threat'. It is a way to force the MTA to actually NEGOTIATE, something they were not willing to do. They're asking for a raise, and as usual, the TA is crying no money, something they always do. Wanna blame somebody? Blame the MTA. But a strike is the only thing that the TWU can do to the MTA. Otherwise, the MTA could go years without renewing their contract. NYC did just that to teachers. If the powers that be could do this to teachers, imagine what they would do to the TWU.
You are a public employee and you gave up your right to strike when you signed on. What don't you understand about that? No one forced you to sign.
In other words: Allow the TA to bitchslap you at will!
You people are in many ways worse than baseball players. Your greed is numbing and your leadership totally misguided.
As already pointed out, you are the greedy one. For the record, It would Take TA workers more than 100 years to make as much money as A-rod.
I know many people (including relatives) who are contract employees. it means if they don't show up for work, they don't get paid.
Technically, they aren't under a contract right now.
Be thankful you have a job and good benefits and don't have to face what we all do out here. Its brutal.
And, they want to gove them no raise, and make them pay for their benefits.
Transit workers have one of the most difficult jobs. Their job can be difficult, and the job of a track worker is nearly as dangerous as that of a firefighter (don't say anything here about september 11th. That was one event, not everyday work danger). Token clerks are sitting on top of loads of cash with little actual protection. Conductors and Train operators are dealing with a riding public that is not always friendly toward them. But according to you, the job is equal to that of a private sector employee.
The TWU gave the MTA their demands, but as usual, the MTA decided to bully them by just waiting until the last minute. A sort of 'WE RUN SHIT HERE!' mentality. What would have happened if the MTA had bargained from day 1? We wouldn't have had this problem. IT wasn't until TA workers threatened to strike that any serious negotiation was carried out. In fact, as stated earlier, when teachers allowed their contract to expire with no threat of a strike, the city allowed them to work without a contract for more than a year. Would the MTA have done any different? Nope.
I would like to point out here that I am not a TA employee, I'm 17. My father now is officially management, so in the event of a strike, our vacation would be postponed, and he would have to work 12 hour days. And, I have in the past gotten into arguments where I referred to some transit employees as 'punk-asses'. So, unlike many of the people you have attacked, I am not a transit worker.
Having said this, I would now like to say I side with the TWU because the TA is just jerking the TWU around. And you are REALLLY becoming smoewhat of an annoyance. You're the one who's being selfish. If you can't have a raise, then no one can right?
You need to pull you head out of your ass and wipe the sh*t from your eyes. Stop being a selfish jackass. And stop making idiotic assumptions that all transit workers are in the same boat.
I've had differences with the TA employees on this board before, but I'll gladly jump in and defend any Transit worker from your selfish, greedy, jealous ass.
Have a pleasant evening and a safe commute,
J Trainloco
P.S.- This goes for any of you other assholes as well.
wow...good rebuttal....well said...*clap clap clap*...must hear more....btw, A-Rod deserves a raise! LOL :P
I am sorry that your inability to find a job has embittered you so much.
Sorry to hear you got canned. Why don't you put your college degree and your bruised ego aside and take the open competitive test for Train Operator comming up in May of 2003. If you can't beat 'em...
Why does nobody get this?
The MTA surpluses are a SCAM. The MTA continually runs on a deficit, only Bridges and Tunnels makes money and then that's not enough to pay for the rest of the MTA. As a result, the MTA needs tax contributions from the state in order to balance its books. All these "surpluses" were just lower than projected deficits.
Every extra passenger that the MTA takes on is a greater loss. When the fare went down in 1997 and 1998, the MTA needed additional funding from the state in order to break even, as it expected losses since people would be paying less. The losses were less than projected. This does not make it a surplus.
And a $2 fare still won't bring the MTA into solvency. Not that it should, but unlike years past, the state or the city DO NOT have the money to subsidize the MTA to the extent they have before.
"The MTA continually runs on a deficit, only Bridges and Tunnels makes money and then that's not enough to pay for the rest of the MTA. As a result, the MTA needs tax contributions from the state in order to balance its books. All these "surpluses" were just lower than projected deficits."
That is true.
"Every extra passenger that the MTA takes on is a greater loss."
That is not true. If the MTA runs the same number of train and bus trips tomorrow as it did yesterday, but tomorrow 1000 more people use them, it collects (give or take a little inaccuracy at the edges, due to unlimited Metrocards etc.) 1000 more fares in extra income. In previous threads, people have attempted to calculate the extra electricity used because of the weight of the extra bodies on the trains, but I think that is pretty marginal.
Extra passengers only incur extra losses if the MTA runs more trips to accommodate them. If it simply crowds more people in to the existing number of trips, there has to be extra income and (almost) no extra cost.
I said it before and I'll say it again: open up the books and show me proof of this. It's that simple.
If it is as you say it is, then I have no problem with it.
The threat of a strike made the MTA MOVE. They were not moving until they realized that the private bus companies PAID this summer for not moving. Furthermore, they understood that the pressure was slowly shifting to Pataki, so they had to get the spotlight off of him. You have to strike (or threaten to) when most people will be inconvenienced...a strike isn't supposed to be "nice".
Of course, I respect your opinion. Just make sure that you made your contribution to plugging the hole in the deficit when the $2 fare is passed next month and implemented in April and your state taxes go higher to offset the tax cut you will receive from the Feds for Chirstmas. Then I will know that you truly believe what you say.
With apologies to anti-union SubTalkers like voice of reason and others, I have some facts from TWU about what has been going on. Obviously MTA/TA will not respond to this. On 9/20/02, TWU presented their contract demands, sans a wage increase figure. It took MTA till 12/5/02 to respond, 10 days before the expiration of the contract. I do not call this good faith bargaining on the part of MTA/TA. Both sides could not agree to the definiton of what productivity menas. Consider this: according to TWU (TA is welcome to deny) in the past 5 years, the cost per passenger has decreased by 15% while passengers per worker has increased by 19%. In 2001, The American Public Transportation Association called the TA the "most efficient and effective transportation system in North America". Doesn't this award qualify for increased productivity? In 1997, the system cost per rider was $1.98, today it is $1.69. Subway ridership has increased 29% over the past 5 years while bus ridership over the same period has increased by 50%. In 1996, the ratio of passengers to worker was 4166, today it is 4962. Sounds like increased productivity to me! Cost overruns at 2 Broadway due to renovations is $450 million. Finally employer cost per hour for health plan for MTA employees: NYCT: $2.47, MNCRR: $3.02, LIRR $4.46. Sounds like the TA gets off cheap! Until the TA, a public tax payer supported agency decides to open their books, they would be unable to challenge these figures. If they have nothing to hide, they'd open them. ABout 10 years ago, they cried poverty and TWU reopened the contract and gave up wage increases. A week later, they reported a $200+ million surplus. Or you forgot about that?
It's far more sinister than that, Bill ... I posted this link in a previous thread, but you guys in TWU were merely "first in the barrel of love, Paturkey style" and screwing YOU guys is the precedent for the mass screwing of the REST of the workforce ...
Everyone should read, because Paturkey is STILL hiding the truth of JUST how much he's screwed up the state ... TWU's negotiations are just the TIP of the iceberg that the ship of state whacked ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=83244&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=&newsdate=12/15/2002
Typical political style, steal from the poor, give to the rich. Only put out press releases that you are stealing from the rich, and giving to the poor. Meanwhile, we shmoes in the middle realize it's steal from the middle class, give 90% to the rich, and 10% to the poor.
-Hank
spot on. a rereading of Gibbon is in order.
New York has no FOIA?
MTA is hoping alot of people forgot about that $200,000,000+ surplus and won't notice if another one is announced later in 2003.
I will believe in a surplus AFTER the Second Avenue Subway is up and running!
Elias
Then you'll have a long wait and no surplus.
(Consider this: according to TWU (TA is welcome to deny) in the past 5 years, the cost per passenger has decreased by 15% while passengers per worker has increased by 19%. In 2001, The American Public Transportation Association called the TA the "most efficient and effective transportation system in North America". Doesn't this award qualify for increased productivity? In 1997, the system cost per rider was $1.98, today it is $1.69. Subway ridership has increased 29% over the past 5 years while bus ridership over the same period has increased by 50%. In 1996, the ratio of passengers to worker was 4166, today it is 4962. Sounds like increased productivity to me!)
This certainly lines up with what the TA reports to the FTA. So what's the problem?
1) Fare reductions. (This can and will be reversed).
2) Employer and employees cut contributions to the pension plan, assuming sky high stock prices are forever. Forever was a little too optimistic, and pension costs are going through the roof.
3) The elimination of state support for the capital plan, leading to massive borrowing, leading to huge debt service.
4) The health care industry is jacking up premiums through the roof.
Numbers 2 and 4 will drive up operating costs, no fault of the workers. Number 3 was a crime, but remember that a lot of operating personnel are paid for by the capital program, so it works both ways.
Pataki, Bruno, McCall, Silver etc. are to blame for number one and number two. To its credit, the TWU screamed about all the debt in the capital plan. So did the Straphangers, AND the business community! They did it anyway. And were re-elected.
(Cost overruns at 2 Broadway due to renovations is $450 million.)
We wuz robbed. I guess the next time privitization comes up, it is worth pointing out that in government getting value out of contractors is no easier than getting value out of employees. The problems and issues are identical.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=425&e=1&cid=425&u=/nypost/20021215/lo_nypost/delays__vandalism_and_protests_were_the_order_of_the_day
enjoy!
Fair, balanced, and official spokesfish of the evildoers. Somebody ought to file a police report, sounds like incitement to violence to me. :)
True. I never would have known that it is expected that we revolt againt the strike and cause trouble. I feel like causing trouble, now that I know this. Who's with me?
I'm sure Fox News will have instructions on where to appear and what to break in the morning. In the meantime, most of us have better things to do with ourselves. Besides, Paturkey has mobilized hundreds of skull-cracking State Troopers to watch over the equipment, the tunnels and the yards, and you can count on seeing plenty of National Guard troops stationed wherever a train or bus runs, just to ensure that every good resident of Paturkeyburg knows who's boss.
Meanwhile, enjoy the snow - the city's VERY pretty for the first few hours after it gets a coating of the white stuff and rest assured that your TWU folks will get you wherever you're going ... as usual. :)
Monday (Dec. 16) in Munich and Frankfort apparently brought tram strikes. This site is updated frequently, but an hour ago it had a fotogalarie or slideshow of strike scenes in both cities. Reference: http://www.bild.de
"Monday (Dec. 16) in Munich and Frankfort apparently brought tram strikes."
There are trams in Kentucky? (Only place I know of called Frankfort).
*snicker snicker* so he spelled Frankfurt wrong...is their alwayz a sarcasstic post that folows? :P
No, it's the new spirit of Franco-German co-operation:
French: Francfort
German: Frankfurt
=
Euro-babble: Frankfort
Heck, why don't we all just settle it by having a Frankfurter in Frankfort, Indiana... and then tip the waitress with some French francs :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only if Frankfort, Indiana, has some sort of Rapid Transit worth the trip...
The francs would be useless - France uses Euros now.....
Gimme Anonomousoleny...he knew how to make the trains run on time.
>>> Monday (Dec. 16) in Munich and Frankfort apparently brought tram strikes. <<<
This was a public employees' union requesting a 3% increase which the government has said it cannot afford. It was a one day strike/demonstration. Today, baggage handlers at several airports have walked out also. There are almost 3 million workers that this contract would cover.
Tom
From today's Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/350/metro/Boston+.shtml) - note that they went almost 6 months without a contract, and settled for a '0' this year:
MBTA union ratifies 4-year contract
By Globe Staff and Wires, 12/16/2002
Members of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority's largest labor union ratified a four-year contract yesterday, according to the MBTA. Local Division 589, which represents nearly 4,000 active employees and more than half of the entire MBTA workforce, approved the contract by an overwhelming margin after the last collective bargaining agreement expired on June 30. The agreement calls for no wage increase this year, but provides increases of 2 percent, 3 percent, and 4 percent in subsequent years through 2006, when the contract expires. Under the terms of the pact, MBTA bus operators will continue to be among the highest paid in the country.
JD
..... On 16 December 1977, the London Underground Piccadilly Line extension to Heathrow Airport opened. I was on the first public train into Heathrow.
Fytton.
Did you catch your flight?
On this date in 1984----The Metro Red Line opened a 6.98 section that included 4 new stations in Montgomery County Maryland---Those stations include White Flint, Twinbrook, Rockville and Shady Grove.
On one of the news channels yesterday they showed a NYC subway train with a purple 8 or B (like the purple 7) on the end of the car. Was I seeing things?
The closest would have been a light blue 8. The B was originally white on black circle.
My guess is that the news channel was trying to avoid violating the MTA's trademark on the route bullets by changing the color.
Either that or your TV set needs adjusting.
Nope, there has never been a purple 8 or B. However, on some of the newer IRT roll signs (I believe on the R62s and R62As), there are other bullets on there, in case lines were added. It doesn't look like the diamond 7 would ever be replaced with a different route, especially since it's a 3-track line instead of 4. But in case I'm wrong, there is a purple #11. -Nick
But in case I'm wrong, there is a purple #11
Maybe in case they wanted to come up with a Flushing Skip-Stop like the J/Z and 1/9.
Yeah, that might also be a possibility...who knows. -Nick
Well...the 7 is technically a 4-track line if you're waiting for a 7 at 111 st. 5-track if you count the elevated express track. I stress use of the word, 'Technically.
Eh, I wouldn't call it 5. MA and MB are yard leads (MA and MB are the 2 tracks at the level with 1 and 2) and lead to the yard (except for an extension of MB, called MC, used only in G.O.s and is conisdered a yard lead itself).
No, but undoubtedly, the IRT Times Sq - Astoria (8) would have become purple had it survived.
For those who either live or work in New Jersey, or who are located in Manhattan near Penn Station or the Port Authority Bus Terminal: Check out the front page of today's (12/16) "Newark" Star-Ledger. There's a nice color shot of a C/R sticking his head out of the window of Redbird car #9194 on the #5 line at Grand Central. It was even taken by a Star-Ledger photographer, which means they sent him all the way to New York!
The photo's on the online edition, at least as of 12:30 noon Monday.
The only photo I see online is one of a C/R sticking his head out of an R-142 car. Did you see the redbird shot online?
I see the R-142 (#7236), not the redbird.
Yes, I guess evrybody has to go to a newsstand to see the Redbird photo.
I see a pre-GOH R-32
Oh dear. That's the very same photo by Joe Testagrose that the New York Times stole (off this site, presumably) in August or September. It's making the rounds. What gives newspaper publishers the idea they have the right to plagiarize anything they find on the web?
I figured it was off this site, but I didn't take the time to look.
Oh, neither did I -- this time. I already did my search when I saw it in the Times. It's the exact same photo.
See this thread, including a comparison.
Sorry it took me so long.
Beautiful! Wish I'd been there. Were they all singles? Who donated the R16 rollsigns? I didn't know they had Fulton 13 on them.
wayne
All singles. IINM, the bulkhead rollsigns were provided by the C/R, Mark W. One end had R-16 signs; the other had R-11 signs.
Very nice! So i guess that camera is no more?
I'm sure it still exists, but it's back at B&H. Back to film for the foreseeable future.
Wish I could have been there.
It's funny, from the other photos I've seen, and some of these also, (like the front end photo of the Redbird at Chambers), it almost looks like a train from a movie set! The train looks out of place and fake! I don't know why, we would not even bat an eye if it was in an IRT station.
Great Photos.
Great pics, David! Thanks for sharing. I love that shot at Broadway Junction where you ran to the other platform - a lot of exercise, but worth the run. Wish I had thought of it.
Chris C. Shaffer
Hey, no knobs on the side signboxes. Torture for railfans!
Where's that Flx Metro at Jetaway?
They were all singles. One car had one knob; look in the photos for the 1 from Dyre to Bowling Green.
Here's the bus:
Glad to see you got my better side at Broad Channel. Otherwise your camera would have severe damage - LOL
Were the railfans playing with the side destination signs the entire trip?
There was only one side sign with a knob, and it was well-used. The Corona cars generally don't have knobs. Otherwise each car was set for a different line: the 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and shuttle were represented.
In the Canarsie Yard in one of the photos there was a Z train. Is there one Z train from Canarsie daily?
No, not as far as I know (I don't think the connector from the Canarsie line to the Broadway line was in place last week -- the opposing connector was in place and in use). I assume it's just stored there for whatever reason, or maybe it was moved for L service but not yet resigned.
The J/Z line lays up one train in Canarsie Yard every night. Of course, it stays there for the weekend.
On Page 5 of today's NY POst (Hey I get it for nothing so I read it), they have a picture of a train yard. You can see lots of R142/142A's and a couple of redbirds and the carbarn but the caption puzzles me.
It says Morris Avenue train depot in the Bronx.
The nearest yard to Morris Avenue is the Concourse yard and it would not be filled with R142/142As. You can clearly see the 3 door sets and the a/c units on top. Also this picture has a train of R62/62As crossing over the yard in front of the parked trains. I wonder what yard this actually is?
It can't be Westchester Yard because the carbarn is not next to so many tracks. It is too large to be E180th, and Unionport doesn't have a carbarn.
Could this be 239th St yard?
There is no online picture that I could find and I don't have a scanner handy.
Anyone?
Do yourself a favor: if you depend on the NY Post for accuracy, I have a used car for you to buy!
I never depend on the Post for accuracy which is why I am asking the question.
It is a good picture and I want to know which yard it is.
If it's an R-33, I'll take it!
If it's any consolation, Fox 5 at 11:00 last night had live images from SkyFox to show that trains were still running normally "over the 59th Street Bridge." I didn't realize R-68s ever ran on the Second Avenue El.
Doesn't it make you wonder about how well they're reporting the news?
Very, very scary
I saw a bit about the city on CNN this morning. Had a picture of a subway train, yes it did. So can anybody tell me where in the world they would have found a BLUE SUBWAY car, looked like a BMT Blue Bird, but there was no video tape back in those days... so it has to be a fairly recent picture, but it sure as little boxes was not in New York City!
Elias
I didn't see it, but if it vaguely resembled a PATH car, it was Boston's Blue Line.
Someone asked about the new cars from CAF that the Washington Metro is about to receive. CAF (CONSTRUCCIONES Y AUXILIAR DE FERROCARRILES)is a Spanish manufacturer of rolling stock of all kinds (subway, LRVs, commuter, trolleys, intercity, high-speed, freight), plus steel, aluminum, and stainless steel. They have been in business since 1860 and have recently become a prominent name in the industry. They have a number of factories around the world, including two in the U.S., where their LRVs can already be found in Pittsburgh and Sacramento. Info on their trains for Washington can be found at
A Spanish manufacturere? I thought they were based in Italy
No, CAF is Spanish, you are thinking of Breda, which is based in Italy.
wayne
You are so right Wayne.
My bad
Mark
Shortly after 2 PM Roger said he had a deal, then Peter Kalikon, of the MTA, said there wasn't a deal yet.
http://www.masslive.com/newsflash/topstory/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?g0352_BC_MA--MBTAContract-Unio&&news&newsflash-massachusetts
I've been sitting on this film for 2 years now. i finally got around to editting it and placing it on the web. It's a mosh poge of subway footage shot by me, and an english project which placed me and a friend trying to get a reaction out of riders.
www.geocities.com/pps_inc_2000/films.html
perhaps you will enjoy it, perhaps you wont, no skin off my back.
-Pat
www.metrocard.cjb.net
www.ppsinc.cjb.net
www.radiofrenzy.cjb.net
www.cretv.com
Very entertaining and well done. Be forewarned that it is a 9 minute download on cable (22mb), since it did keep rebuffering for me.
hey, thanks a lot. I'm glad you liked it
NBC-10 down here in Philly reports that a "Deal has been reached".
Can anyone confirm?
Chuck Greene
Yes it has. Probably in your papers this AM.
Deal is done
http://www.wnbc.com/newyorktransitstrike/1834133/detail.html
While everything seems all done, it isn't. The Workers still need to approve the deal. And that could be a bit iffy with no raise at all.
The only problem I have with it is that it is a three year deal. Who wants that? If the economy keeps going down, the MTA may not be able to afford the raises. But if it turns around, the transit workers may end up on the losing end. I never liked multi-year deals. Don't the negotiators get paid every year?
Larry, it might be a chance the parties have to take. We can't have these problems creeping up every year. Perhaps a two year contract might be the answer. It would provide a little breathing room and wouldn't impact the TWU that much since it is still a shorter period of time. Besides, it might afford those contending parties an opportunity to put together a team from both sides to mitigate whatever gripes each has against the other. You just can't keep having these labor-management problems popping up every time you look around/
A three year deal is best because we are looking at a bearish economy for the next couple years, anyway.
Now that you got the raises. How many MTA employees are going to get laid off. The money needs to come from somewhere
There is a no-layoff clause in the contract. The money will be found from somewhere, it always is.
Um, not every MTA employee (the subject of the question) is a member of TWU/100. Some are not unionized at all and could be laid off if that's what the board decides.
David
>>There is a no-layoff clause in the contract. The money will be found from somewhere, it always is.<<
The salary increase will most likely come from a fare increase. If before the strike the MTA was set on a 25 cent increase, that may be a 50 cent one making the fare $2.00. Let's see what happens next year.
Bill "Newkirk"
All taken care of. Just got the e-mail that the tentative agreement between MTA and TWU has resulted in the deactivation of the Emergency Management Center thanks to a few individuals giving up some luxuries.
Question is what luxuries were given up??? TA employment is Civil Service...everyone in every title is equal...firing the bad will also fire the good. Nobody is going to be fired, especially if they have reached 'permanent status.' 'Attrition culls the herd' and what can happen is a greater workload upon union membership BUT is that not what we have a union for??? TA obtained New Technology trainsets through FRA grants which were supposed to reduce maintainance costs...what they got were trainsets assembled ahead of schedule which gave Bombardier employees bonus bucks...resulting in poor MDBF.
Everyone loses and firing experienced provisional employees will result in short staffing and cutbacks in RTO operations. The settlement was just a tiny fraction of MTA operational costs...any lost revenue will be made up by increased fares.
There is a lot of turnover over the course of the year. Once the newbies realise that they have to work weekends, midnights, Thanksgiving, Christmas and the like, lots of them decide to leave.
Bill, are you on vacation this week? You shouldn't be on here now unless they got internet access at in the crew room at Parsons.
Yes, for 2 weeks actually. In accordance with the Taylor Law, they would cancel my vacation and in a legal sense, I would be on strike.
The problem is the MTA playing a game of chicken with the TWU. This could have been settled a while ago, but the MTA wanst to see how far this particular TWU will go with a strike threat. If they are really serious, then the TA will negotiate, but if not, they'll just sit back and offer idiotic contracts.
I think the union would be better served with a longer term deal with raises indexed to some cost of living calculation. Perhaps some type of bonus tied to TA coming in ahead of budget in a given year.
I suspect the TA wouldn't agree to that, because it becomes more and more difficult to forecast "productivity gains" and the resulting changes in headcount as the contract goes further out.
Not good for the union either if the economy takes an upswing.
Either way, the TA basically says: 'we're loosing money, we're loosing money' whenever a new contract needs to be negotiated, and then when it's passed, 'well what do you know A SURPLUS!'
I think after the potential problems arising from the strike authorization vote and all the press afterwards the TA will be hammered if they all of a sudden find a surplus.
They won't announce it. They're looking to raise fares by April, and announcing a surplus would hurt their case, as much as they probably want to throw it at the workers.
The only problem I have with it is that it is a three year deal. Who wants that? If the economy keeps going down, the MTA may not be able to afford the raises. But if it turns around, the transit workers may end up on the losing end.
It looks as if both sides have to face some risks. At least the burden is shared, which isn't so bad.
Actually, a three year deal is better for the union because the economy is likely to continue to suck for quite a while yet and by then there may be some chance that there will be a badly needed enema of the White House and both houses of Congress courtesy of the voters.
So we get this 'bogus bonus.' Then we get 48 cents plus or minus an hour. ATU has been meddling about...other unions won't touch us because they're AFL-CIO. Time to uncork Jimmie Hoffa from his 55 gallon drum in Secaucus.
If Mr. Hoffa was sealed in a 17E/H type 55 gallon drum back in'75 and you opened it, the odor would be so gross that management would COWER IN FEAR. "we'll give you 8/8/8, just make that #@!$#!$# stink GO AWAY!
Now IF I uncorked the 17E/H 55 gallon drum and Mr. Hoffa walked out unaided to meet with MTA and TWU, we'd get 16/16/16 minus Teamster dues. That's another point...TWU losing meant loss of automatic dues.
Time for QRT and SK....everyday is a decent workday to rise early for.
GodBless, Peter
Rumor has it that Hoffa was chopped up into little pieces which were dumped into the concrete foundations of the Meadowlands Stadium as they were being poured.
Might be Urban Legend, but considering who Jimmy hung around with and the fact that he just disappeared and nothing was ever heard from him again, it just might be true. The Mob is capable of some wonderous things.
NY1 is reporting that WNBC is mistaken. The union has called an executive board meeting at 8:00 PM to discuss the MTA's "lump sum" proposal.
That's why it's called tentative. Contrary to pouplar belief, Roger Toussaint does not make the final decision.
Actually, it's called tentative because even after the Executive Board approves it (IF the Executive Board approves it), it has to go to the membership for ratification.
David
I mentioned that in another post.
From NY1--
"WNBC reported this afternoon that there was a tentative three-year deal for pay hikes in the last two years, with cash bonuses in lieu of a raise in the first year. But in the only official update today, at 2:30 p.m., MTA spokesperson Tom Kelly said there was no agreement, adding talks were at a 'sensitive stage.'"
The Associated Press is now reporting there is a tentative agreement (in fact, Mr. Toussaint is announcing it as I type).
The MTA threw Toussiant a $1,000 per employee bone. MTA wins this one, again. What I'd like to see is the changes in disciplinary rules which were supposedly agreed upon before the clock was stopped.
I say that it was a draw. The MTA didn't give a raise for the first year, and the TWU got some money for the first year in the form of a lump sum.
If Useless Willie James was still in power, we'd be voting on whether to accept -2.3%.
The object of giving the 'limp sum' was to give the money without settlement so as NOT to having appease other unions when their contracts expire. It was all pre-ordained and written in stone. 'Done deal' before our demonstration at City Hall today.
'Take out the old boss, bring in the new boss, old is new again.'
Seems that most cities Transit Unions are seperated by rail or bus,
Witch usually means Train crews get paid more than bus operators.
Does anyone think that can work in NYC? For example if Mta seperated Busses and trains will train crews be classified engineers like LIRR?
Does anyone feel that Bus operators hold back potential raises for Train operators?Or is it Vice versa do Train operators hold back Bus operators?Or could Everyone involved in subways decided to switch unions?If that was the case and subways decided to branch off and Join LIRR and MNRR unions would they get raises or would MTA say that just cant happen?
It would not be in the employees' best interest to split up like that. It weakens your strike threat. bu$h and his cowardly cohorts won't be here forever.
I have not yet seen it in writing but busses might have been sacraficed in favor of subways in the negotiations. If true, busses and subways personnel will no longer be able to view themselves as part of one collective bargaining unit.
Maybe Toussaint was blindsided.
Then, you would have to seperate the Systems too. Bye-bye metrocard xfers.
"Then, you would have to seperate the Systems too. Bye-bye metrocard xfers."
There is no logic in that statement. There is no connection between what unions workers belong to, or what different groups of staff get paid, and any fare arrangements that the MTA chooses to institute.
(Does anyone feel that Bus operators hold back potential raises for Train operators? Or is it Vice versa do Train operators hold
back Bus operators?)
My guess is that if there were separate unions or organizations, train operators, tower operators, and maintenance of way workers would be paid more, and everyone else in the TA would be paid less.
First of all, thanks to recent productivity gains and with the expected fare increases, the subway is pretty much covering its costs, so subway workers could argue for a share of the profits. Meanwhile, bus transit is loses money here as elsewhere.
Second, the subway system is essential to the regional economy, while buses are of secondary importance -- more a social service for the poor and elderly and student transport than anything else. Of course, this isn't true of all bus routes.
Third, rail workers have scarce skills, while there are lots of bus drivers and diesel mechanics who could be retrained to work on buses.
(Or could Everyone involved in subways decided to switch unions?If that was the case and subways decided to branch off and Join LIRR and MNRR unions would they get raises or would MTA say that just cant happen?)
After having a gun put to my head by a monopoly, I'd like the see the A and B divisions as separate organizations with different locals and different contracts expiring at different times, as well as a separate organization for the buses. Perhaps if transit workers had more of a choice of employers and could move on in search of a better deal, there'd be less frustration.
After having a gun put to my head by a monopoly,
The TWU is not a monopoly. They don't regulate fares, service or anything else. The MTA is a monopoly. And seperating the A and B division would be disastrous. Seperate fare systems. Seperate operating procedures. Seperate everything. What about state funding? The state controls everything. No way we can 'split' up this without privatization.
"The TWU is not a monopoly"
If I'm the TA, and I want somebody to staff a token booth, or drive a train can I hire somebody who isn't in the TWU?
Sounds like a monopoly to me.
What do you call the motorman's test?
"What do you call the motorman's test? "
Yes, but that person will have to join the union before they can be hired. So the TA is bound by the agreement with the TWU. Effectively, the TWU has a monopoly on labor.
If a business that doesn't have a union can find someone to do a job for less then they can hire that person and cut their costs. If the TA finds someone who is willing to perform the duties of a station agent for less than the rate they're paying TWU workers -- it doesn't matter, they can't hire that person unless they join the union and get a union wage.
For that reason, non-unionized businesses generally pay more than union shops. Otherwise, you'd be faced with huge turnover as people traded in and out of jobs. In a union environment, workers generally trade job security (i.e. 3 year contract) for lower wages. Where it really becomes sticky is when you subtract out union dues from your already lower pay -- then you have to ask whether the trade-off is worth it.
CG
So the TA is bound by the agreement with the TWU.
This is the TA's fault here. But you are right.
Anyways, he's talking about a monopoly to the riders, and that just doesn't exist. At least not as a result of the TWU.
(Anyways, he's talking about a monopoly to the riders, and that just doesn't exist. At least not as a result of the TWU. )
The subway is something like 68 percent of those going into the CBD at rush hour. That's pretty close to a monopoly.
Anyway, you don't need to privatize, of pay two fares to separate the A and B division. If a person used both in a trip, the two would split the fare. You'd just need to have two sets of management, led by two different Presidents, with yes -- two different contracts and two different policies.
Each management would compete both to attract riders, based on service quality, and the best workers, based on pay and working conditions. Each would receive equal salaries. The winners get bonuses, and get extra fare revenues to provide bonuses to the workers. The losers? Let's just say voters in neighborhoods served primarily by the subways with inferior service and higher employee turnover would pressure their elected officials to get someone else in charge.
Charles G."For that reason, non-unionized businesses generally pay more than union shops." WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING.
What he said made sense.
"Charles G."For that reason, non-unionized businesses generally pay more than union shops." WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING"
... well, nothing.
Perhaps I'm missing an obvious example that you see, but in what job do you see non-union workers being paid less than their union counterparts. If I'm not mistaken, this is the number one reason why unionism has been on a sharp decline everywhere except the public sector.
There aren't a whole lot of comparison points, especially locally. Here in NY metro unionism in private industry seems to be just about dead, except where it has a monopoly. Some exceptions are supermarket employees for which (I believe -- based on what I read the last time one was trying to unionize) the non-union shops pay about the same as the union shops (so the net after union dues is higher).
Where it really shows up is when you compare job functions. Administrative assistants and other office personnel earn considerably more in non-union environments than they do in a unionized one. Admittedly, though, it's not an entirely fair comparison as the non-union is overwhelmingly private sector and the unionized is overwhelmingly public -- but the difference is so significant that I think the union/non-union effect is a meaningful part of it.
CG
There aren't a whole lot of comparison points, especially locally. Here in NY metro unionism in private industry seems to be just about dead, except where it has a monopoly. Some exceptions are supermarket employees for which (I believe -- based on what I read the last time one was trying to unionize) the non-union shops pay about the same as the union shops (so the net after union dues is higher).
What about the construction trades? They're pretty heavily unionized in the New York area, and to a lesser extent elsewhere.
And that drives up the cost of business in NYC driving thousands of jobs out of state.
The construction trade union has been so successfully that it is far cheaper to put up a building in jersey city then in NYC or brooklyn for that matter. This has drove thousands of good paying jobs to jersey city and even further away. It has also driven up the cost of housing for all new yorkers
but in what job do you see non-union workers being paid less than their union counterparts.
While a small example...
For years, I worked Off-B'way as a non-union Carpenter and Electrician. Compared to those who were in the Union and working Off-B'way, I made appreciably less than they did (even after dues and fees). If you compared me to someone working for Local 3 (Electricians) or the Carpenter's Union in the building trades, well, they always snickered
Become a T/O without the union and you get whatever the TA wants to pay you, no counsel at disciplinary hearings, reduced benefits and other things. I happen to be celebrating my birthday and not striking this week so if I end up ranting, rambling or just babbling excuse me.
Better idea, have another company run another line((8),(10),(K),(P) etc) to Manhattan and The Bronx(more on this in another thread). Privatization is good, but they should make their own lines (like the buses have QBx1), not take over existing lines. They can be the C and D division, or the 1 and 2 division.
How would they collect revenue?
not sure yet, now it is just an idea could share Metrocard with MTA, or make up it's own cards/transfers to (own)buses and compete with MTA. Collection would be in the stations that will be replacing much of the torn down #8 stations in the Bronx like 200th St and 210 St
"The TWU is not a monopoly. They don't regulate fares, service or anything else" But they do regulate fares throught there economic terrorist like illegal strike threat which forces the MTA to give a raise to every worker no matter thier quality or difficulty filling the position thus artificially driving up operation costs and fares
Oh come on! Don't be so overdramatic. This was not a threat of economic terrorism. The union agreed to productivity changes. The savings will cover a big portion of the raises. The fare was going to go up anyway, even if the union took the TA's original offer.
What do you expect from the voiceofreagan.
Don't be so overdramatic. This was not a threat of economic terrorism.
Dunno ... a transit strike would have wrought economic havoc, especially this time of year. Whether that makes it "economic terrorism" is a matter of opinion.
You do not believe in the right of collective barganing anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>I'd like the see the A and B divisions as separate organizations with different locals and different contracts expiring at different times, as well as a separate organization for the buses. Perhaps if transit workers had more of a choice of employers and could move on in search of a better deal, there'd be less frustration.
That would be dreadful for us. By having separate systems and locals, it would completely destroy any leverage that we would have in Local 100.
An additional thing that would be bad for union workers (and good for the riders) is that that proposal would permanently eliminate the possibility of a strike. If the IRT goes on strike, then you would just use the IND/BMT and vice versa. Or you could use the bus.
It would also pit one division against another because the possibility would exist of one division having a higher hourly wage than the other. Also, it would permanently eliminate the opportunity to switch divisions if one wanted to. And no, one cannot switch unions at the drop of a hat.
Rotten idea.
It could work if the divisions were operated on a for-profit basis, or perhaps even if management compensation were tied to the service provided.
The UAW has historically done quite well for its members. While they struck one of the big 3, the other 2 were still churning out cars and making profits that otherwise would have gone to the one being struck.
Profits turned into losses, stock values fell and bonuses for management disappeared.
You are mistaking power for leverage. The TWU has leverage now, but over the wrong people. It can shut down transit for the city, but the TA management will continue to bring home the exact same paycheck every two weeks. If the TWU actually struck in the current economic environment, TA management would probably be happy to sit back and let the union implode.
When you can hit management in the pocketbook, then you have leverage.
CG
It could work if the divisions were operated on a for-profit basis,
Then you get another IRT/BMT scenario. The riders paying two fares and not necessarily getting the best decisions (the call to put Luciano behind the controls directly involves this discussion).
"Then you get another IRT/BMT scenario. The riders paying two fares..."
Not necessarily. Businesses find ways to share revenue all the time. Joint Ventures, co-branding, reasonably intelligent people (not me) could come up with some way to estimate who was transferring where and to share revenue accordingly.
I'm not advocating for or against this, the real reason for my post was to point out that not having a monopoly over an entire product doesn't necessarily diminish your leverage. In this case, my opinion is that the TWU really had no leverage at all -- the TA negotiators had nothing to lose with a strike. Once the Governor declined to come in (they have some degree of leverage over him -- though with election day behind him it was very small anyway) they didn't have any leverage over the people they were negotiating with.
Public perception is very nice but what matters are the people sitting across the table. The TA had nothing to lose, Mr. Toussaint had everything to lose -- over time, the TWU membership will decide if he lost it or not.
CG
Of course LL would suggest something that was bad for us.
(An additional thing that would be bad for union workers (and good for the riders) is that that proposal would permanently eliminate the possibility of a strike. If the IRT goes on strike, then you would just use the IND/BMT and vice versa. Or you could use the bus.)
Perhaps as part of a deal to separate the divisions, a strike could be legalized. After all, a strike is illegal now because it would be devastating. If it would be merely inconvenient, there would be less reason to keep it illegal. In any event, I've rarely heard it admitted that the interests of TA employees and TA riders are not always the same. Shutting off the entire subway system is as legitimate as shutting off the entire electric power supply.
(It would also pit one division against another because the possibility would exist of one division having a higher hourly wage
than the other. Also, it would permanently eliminate the opportunity to switch divisions if one wanted to. And no, one cannot switch unions at the drop of a hat.)
Being able to switch divisions, and competition between them, is the whole point. If one division's management did a better job for riders, at least some of them (those who could walk or ride a bus could switch. AND, if one division's management did a better job for WORKERS at least some of THEM could switch too. And since its the best workers who are likely to be accepted by the other division, the division that did best for workers would also be able to do better for riders. In other words, MANAGEMENT would be forced to innovate and compete. This monopoly mutual deathgrip doesn't seem to make anyone happy.
There would still be a monopoly. Much of the Bronx is nowhere near IND/BMT lines; much of Brooklyn and Queens are nowhere near IRT lines.
Not true. In most cities with bus and rail systems, Boston T and Philadelphia SEPTA and San Francisco MUNI being good examples, the rail and bus operators belong to the same union. In fact, in cities with the newer rail systems, such as Baltimore and Washington, most rail operators are former bus drivers who reached the train operator ranks through seniority.
The issue you bring up would make for an interesting study comparing the histories of labor unions in urban transit systems versus railroads. The TWU and other transit-oriented unions tended to organize all labor crafts in entire transit systems. The reason behind that was that in one large union there was strength – any threatened strike would idle all workers and guarantee that all transit service would stop. In the 1950s, the TWU under Mike Quill’s leadership attempted to organize all NYCTA employees under one bargaining unit. The TWU also represented the majority of the city’s private bus line drivers as well. The NYCTA organizing drive almost succeeded 100% – by the late 50s all TA workers were TWU members except for the Staten Island and Queens bus drivers and mechanics – who to this day remain in two separate ATU bargaining units.
Railroads, whose unionized work forces predate those on city transit systems, historically organized, and are largely still organized, by craft. That is why the conductors, engineers, signalmen, tower operators, etc. on most railroads (including the MTA’s commuter lines) tend to belong to different unions based on their labor craft.
>>> Railroads, whose unionized work forces predate those on city transit systems, historically organized, and are largely still organized, by craft. That is why the conductors, engineers, signalmen, tower operators, etc. on most railroads (including the MTA's commuter lines) tend to belong to different unions based on their labor craft. <<<
Good post.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many on this board by their posts show complete ignorance of labor history and particularly the different philosophies of the AFL and CIO.
Tom
Chris Fussell's attempt to purchase #231 for preservation was successful.
F40PHR #231 website
I read the one page about it on the website, but it seems to be lacking a bit. Is there more information on the background of this purchase and what has gone into it and why this guy wants it and why it is in such an old paint scheme? Thanks.
Chris Fussell posted an explanation on trainorders.com on Nov 29.
I posted a Destination Freedom article that explains the whole thing. Maybe next time you should look through my Destination Freedom cross posts.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=420970
If this question has been asked and answered before, I apologize in advance.
The movie was shown yesterday on AMC. There is a scene where Gene Hackman and Fernando Rey keep hopping on and off a shuttle until the doors close and Hackman is left on the platform.
Does anyone know the car #'s that were used in that consist? I was able to pick out 6609 & 6671. I would love to know if Branford's beloved 6688 was in that shoot.
No. I believe 6688 was not there.
Can ayone also add why there was an N running on the West End Line? That N then smashes into a B. I wonder how they did that scene.
They filmed the "collision" in fast reverse. The "N" was #4572.
wayne
The N was on the West End Line because they just grabbed an unused N trainset out of Coney Island Yard to do the filming.
To simulate the collision, they film the thing in reverse; it was actually 4572 backing away from the B train and then speed the film up.
I also read that the director insisted on a clean set of cars, and the only cleanly washed set, free of wintertime grime, only had the "N" signs. That's intersting about the reverse filming you just posted, Steve.
Chuck Greene
Al, if 'our' car had been in "The French Connection" don't you think it would have been bronzed and visited by film buffs from far and wide?
The only claim to fame for 6688 is that it is featured in a noted children's book, 'Barto Takes the Subway' (which was published in 1961). Amazon.com may still have copies available...
"The only claim to fame for 6688 is that it is featured in a noted children's book, 'Barto Takes the Subway'"
Thanks, Larry! I knew you'd come through for us :)
The car numbers changed mid scene. The train leaves with one consist and returns with another. None were 6688.
Observant viewers will notice that the chase isn't filmed linearly, ie. they cut from 86th Street to Stillwell and back again, to max out the chase.
So is this the best car chase scene in the movies? Bullitt is good as well as The Blues Brothers. What is it about els? Both FC and BB car chase scenes are under els.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The movie Running Scared (starring Billy Crystal and Gregory Hines) had some great L chase scenes...on the L itself!
Say one was to take the open competative Train Operator or Conductor exam some while ago and get called then further get hired, does one get a choice of joining the union or not? Im not quite farmiliar with union practices.
Not at NYCT. A person in a "represented" title has to join the union that represents the particular title.
David
thanks for the clarification
The issue you point to is the "closed shop." New York is a "closed shop" state. Even if you don't want to join the union, you still get dues deducted from your paycheck. In other states, you have a choice, these are "right to work" states.
The argument for the closed shop is that "freeloaders" will avoid paying dues, then get the benefit of union negotiation anyway, and that's unfair. The argument for "right to work" is that unions do not always represent the interests of their members. Unions, however, have a hard time organizing in "right to work" states, which implies the first point may be right.
«which implies the first point may be right. »
Not necessarily, that may also indicate, that lot of workers believe that union does not represent their interest, and where possible, exercise their choice.
Arti
>>> In other states, you have a choice, these are "right to work" states. <<<
Actually "Right to Work" states tend to be anti-union in all respects. It is also possible to have the "Agency Shop," in which workers are not required to join a union, but must donate an amount equal to union dues to the union since they get the benefits of collective bargaining.
Tom
Hey Union folks, Railfans, Business Owners, and New Yorkers (whether in fact or in Spirit),
I have recently heard of a tentative deal which would give the union more $$ in the form of a "lump sum" rather than a raise for the first year, and then a raise for the following two years. This came after a well-known argument down to the wire between Touissant and the MTA Negotiators - classic brinkmanship at its finest. Touissant may not have been college-schooled, but he DOES have political savvy and arguing skills that might present well in college and academia. See how this was accomplished? Boss says one thing, union says otherwise, boss and union reiterate the points until the clock runs down to the last minute, each side backed up by threats that keep everyone on edge, then someone announces a "breakthrough" that grants a temporary reprieve. Knowing they have no real time in which to dillydally further, both sides reach a face-saving deal: "I say potato, you say pohtahto, let's call the whole thing off". In this case - "let's not call it a raise, let's call it a lump-sum payment!" Yup, once again, classic brinkmanship. Don't y'all go about forgetting that.
Of course, some of you folks might still want to quit your job or go on strike. Fine. Go ahead. It's not my fault if you wind up having to pay for damages, go to jail, or get gassed by riot police. On the other hand, I think union workers DO need better working conditions, and on the third hand, we passengers need a better subway! :)
Richard Rabinowitz.
Hey Union folks, Railfans, Business Owners, and New Yorkers (whether in fact or in Spirit),
I have recently heard of a tentative deal which would give the union more $$ in the form of a "lump sum" rather than a raise for the first year, and then a raise for the following two years. This came after a well-known argument down to the wire between Touissant and the MTA Negotiators - classic brinkmanship at its finest. Touissant may not have been college-schooled, but he DOES have political savvy and arguing skills that might present well in college and academia. See how this was accomplished? Boss says one thing, union says otherwise, boss and union reiterate the points until the clock runs down to the last minute, each side backed up by threats that keep everyone on edge, then someone announces a "breakthrough" that grants a temporary reprieve. Knowing they have no real time in which to dillydally further, both sides reach a face-saving deal: "I say potato, you say pohtahto, let's call the whole thing off". In this case - "let's not call it a raise, let's call it a lump-sum payment!" Yup, once again, classic brinkmanship. Don't y'all go about forgetting that.
Of course, some of you folks might still want to quit your job or go on strike. Fine. Go ahead. It's not my fault if you wind up having to pay for damages, go to jail, or get gassed by riot police. On the other hand, I think union workers DO need better working conditions, and on the third hand, we passengers need a better subway! :)
Richard Rabinowitz.
How much is this "Lump Sum" that warrants ending threats of a transit strike?
$1000 a person. If y'all don't like it, vote against it~!
$1000 a worker is about 2% on average but the workers lose on this one.
If I get 2-3-3 the raises are compounded as to the $1000 lump sum then 3-3. e.g. $10phrx2%=$10.20x3%=10.51x3%=10.83
$1000 Then$10phrx3%=10.30x3%=10.61
The TA wins on wages again.
FWIW, I'd offer that the zero increment the first year was one of those inflexible things. In talking with a number of folks over the last few days, the REALLY important items were the health benefits, rule changes and of course that 2.3% thingy. Most were willing to accept the zero for the FIRST year IF they got the other items. The lump sum payment is a trick the state's done before and about all you can do is take it and accept that it could have been nothing.
And no, not to worry about me, I've not gone over the other side, I'm pleasantly surprised that TWU got the lump sum at all, and good for you guys if there aren't other snakes in the sack. :)
Is there anyone on this board who is a NYC subway train operator? I want to take the civil service exam for this job but I have a few questions that maybe someone who is a train operator can answer. First of all, how safe (from a crime perspective) is it to be a train operator? Have there been frequent assaults on or harassment of train operators by criminals or troublemaking kids? Second, I have heard that severe racial tensions exist among NYC Transit Authority workers.... basically I have heard that black transit workers harass white workers, and vice versa.... I tend to believe that this is all a rumor and is not really true, but is there anyone who can verify this?
Second, I have heard that severe racial tensions exist among NYC Transit Authority workers.... basically I have heard that black transit workers harass white workers, and vice versa....
I've never heard of outright direct harassment, but I have heard of some stories of unfairness due to race...
you thinking of the May exam?
Actually I am not sure when the exact date of the exam is, buy I know that the application filing dates are sometime in May.
right, thats what I was refering to. I too have heard of many "race selection" practices among the ranks in the TA and many iffy practices among people developing "cliques"
If you don't confront people (passengers) you will be safe 99.7% of the time(this is still NY)
People not getting along is not a race issue, I am a white T/O and there are some crew members I do not get along with both white and black, while I get along with others of all races and creeds. It is very simple if you don't get along with somebody don't bad mouth them among others but respect them as an equal.
Clicks will form some people work well together, some went thru school car together, some have common interests, and yes sometimes skin color does enter the equation.
Just do your job the best you can, don't bitch and moan until you get some senority, and for God sakes don't act like you know everything.
If anyone has a photo of the builder's plate on the 1971-73
Metro-North M-2 electric MU cars, please post online so I can see
it.
Sorry, I only have a pic of a Budd M-1 plate.
looks like its aa done deal
Breaking news...
Tentative agreement reached!!
Thank you
1000-dollar lump sum payment for first yeat, 3% raises for next two years...
TWU President Toussaint just announced it...
That's what they're saying...I hope so.
What are the chances it won't be ratified?
"What are the chances it won't be ratified?"
Slim to none. And Slim's in Texas.
Well, I'd wait until the ink is dry before I'd be cheering for the contract. Toussaint comes from track. The past leadeers have all come from busses. Toussaint gave up something that he swore he'd never give up. Hall and james went to the wall not to give it up. We'll see if the good people from busses will be so willing to give itr up. BTW: I'll bet bus talkers have a whole different slant on things.
I'm missing something here. What exactly did Roger give up?
While it has not yet been widely publicized, my undestanding is that Roger has given up the one thing that the MTA said they had to have, the co-mingling of NYCT bus and MABSTOA bus people in the same facility. The past practice of MABSTOA garages and NYCT Bus garages was a major stumbling block in the MTAs plan to reorganize the MTA..
Sonny Hall and Willy James absolutely refused to give this up in previous contracts. Roger - coming from track - might not know how central this issue is.
It was all pre-ordained and written in stone, wasn't it???
'Take out the old boss, bring in the new boss, we won't get fooled, old is new again.' Timely words from 'The Who.'
Perhaps Ole Roger needs someone patient to teach him the 'Gandy Dance'
Pulling spikes, slipping ties, track gauging, laser alignment and GPS
mapping, HF welding and continuity tests with a Wheatstone Bridge. Fish plate insertion and affixment, signals insulation and operation.
Pandross clips with nylon blocks and continuously welded rail.
I'll reserve judgement on it till I find out what the entire package looks like. By merging the bus entities, they get the 12 sick days. We'll have to find out how civil service status for one and not the other plays into it as well as if MABSTOA drivers would now be subject to Taylor Law provisions.
from where I sit, the archaic distinction between MAVSTOA and NYCT personnel inbolved with buses is a generaion lae getting abolished. This is like pretending the BMT and IND are still separate. How many MABSTOA drivers actually were hired begore MTA vecame the umbrella?
Lump limp bonus when they cough it up. More like two percent the next two years.....48 cents an hour??? Now don't get me wrong, I left private industry where my direct employer pocketed profits from my hard work and kept any raises I should have received for himself...I am grateful for TA work...I know I cannot make up for all the many years of lost wages and vacation from previous employment...but 48 cents an hour in 2002???? It was all pre-ordained
and 'written in stone.' Neil Persaud banned all CED reps from negotioations as a matter of record. Daimler/Chrysler should soon be receiving the order for new Mercedes Benz sedans. Have a nice day!
Benzes?
Don't one of the negotiators have a collection of Ferraris? Or is that just hearsay?
If I knew that to be true, I'd walk away from negotiations with that guy, he didn't have that kind of money by giving it away in raises and benefits.
If NIMBYs can be convinced that this is for the good of Manhattan
1st or 3rd Av line(not sure of it yet) Express/local stops same as Lexington Avenue line after 14 St to 125 St(with some differences)
Private company is needed so the Bronx doesn't get screwed out of service if a strike happens in the distant future, plus Manny needs a line on as many blocks as possible. Some connections(and free transfers) could be worked out with the MTA(like transfers between private and MTA buses) if not, disregard the Bronx transfers
(8) Line(1st or 3rd Av line)
Manhattan:
Grand St
Houston St
14 St
23 St
28 St
33 St
42 St
51 St
59 St
68 St
82 St (different local stop, 116 St eliminated)
--------
if many opposition for Lower Manhattan, line will begin here
86 St(NIMBYs should become more accepting of els after this point)
96 St
103 St
110 St
116 St(if line starts at 86 St, this will be a stop)
----------
if more opposition, line will begin here and connect with Second Avenue line
125 St(1/9 and Metro North are elevated here as well)
Bronx
138 Street-3 Av (connect with (6))
149 Street-3 Av (connect with (2)(5))
(on Webster Avenue from now to terminal)
156 Street
161 Street
166 Street
169 Street
Claremont Parkway
174 Street
Tremont Av-177 St
180 Street
183 Street
Fordham Road-190 St
Bedford Park Blvd-200 St
204 Street
Gun Hill Road-210 St
Woodlawn-233 St
Nah, it wouldn't be profitable... what kinda passenger road makes a profit those days?
Perhaps a road that runs First Class el service, maybe? :)
How about A 4th System, Start with The IND Second System Lines & The Second Avenue Line then the tunnel from Bay Ridge To Staten Island, then from South Ferry To St George SI, The Extend East From Euclid Avenue and reopen 76th Street Station.
Okay, you've heard the tentative deal struck by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and the Transport Workers Union.
Your thoughts?
Winner: Toussant.
Why? Strikes are illegal, and with the expected injunction and crippling fine, really had no logical chance of happening. If he had pushed a strike anyway, the whole city would have turned against the TWU, and it would have been crushed. DESPITE THIS, by threatening or seeming to threaten a strike, he probably got a better deal than transit workers would have had otherwise, made the transit workers and their issues seem like the number one concern in New York, made the transit workers seem like the most important public employees in the city, and made himself seem like the most important union leader in the city. Especially with much the Democratic Party turning against Denis Rivera and Local 1199.
Loser: Pataki
Why? First of all, with all this public education as a result of the strike threat even more people are aware that the Governor, not the Mayor, is in control of the MTA. That can't be good for a guy who likes to hide out. People are mad that he covered up the state's fiscal problems, many of his own making, until after the election, and the TWU highlighted it. AND, the MTA announced the need for a fare hike BEFORE the deal, so the TWU can't be blamed for fare hikes and service cuts. He can be.
"Winner: Toussant". Time will tell. Did he promise too much and deliver too little? This is for the membership to decide. He's not entrenched enough (hasn't fed long enough at the trough and paid off the appropriate parties) to guarantee his position at the top. I suspect the real test won't the money -- the rank and file know $$ are tight, and this isn't a blatantly bad deal $wise -- but the changes in benefits and discipline. Are they real or are they just window dressing?
"Loser: Pataki" Oh no. I don't think you could be more wrong on that one Larry. The man is pure Teflon. Nothing you've said here is wrong, but what the average Joe on the street saw was a union that wanted 8/8/8, that got 0/3/3 plus a Xmas bonus and there was no strike. He's a huge winner, as usual.
CG
And to add to Pataki's losses, the TWU was FIRST in the barrel to get it "hurricane style" and prevailed anyway. Nine OTHER state unions are up for negotiations in the next couple of months. They too have been offered zeros and givebacks. Whoops. :)
Ummm, I wouldn't be sure about that, if the media keeps playing their game.
Listening to 880 today and every time they talked about the contract they said something like "And who will pay for this? The MTA expects to raise fares by April to cover the additional money needed."
The MTA said they would raise fares no matter the outcome of the contract would be.
Yes, but the question is when the hell are they going to get my Sea Beach back on the Manny B. See guys, I haven't forgotten my mission.
Never, you will be lucky in the Sea Beach goes into Manhatten during non-rush hours at all
Preliminarily, I like the sound of it.
But I eagerly wait to see what the changes with the discipline, health benefits and sick leave will be.
For me, this wasn't about $$$. Sure I'll like the lump sum (which will be cut in half by the IRS), and the 3% for the 2nd & 3rd years is fair enough. I'm just giddy that we still have a job to do....without disruption.
I agree with you ZMan, although I expect the productivity changes in RTO will be Train Worker I & II (hope I'm wrong). All things consdiered I think this is contract is a win for Local 100. Considering that Sunday evening I believed we were going to walk, I'll sign up for this one in a heartbeat.
You know, I've heard through the grapevine that in lieu of Train Worker 1 & 2, the TA was willing to discontinue OPTO. Whether or not that was in the contract, I don't know.
But from what I've heard so far, I'm voting yes.
The OPTO guys on the G will be happy to hear that.
The TA in the last two contracts was willing to give up OPTO, it loses money. TW1/2 and prepackaged pick are on RTO's agenda, that would save them lots more. I heard tonight RTO remained neutral, second contract in a row. Thats good, no givebacks, no gains. I wouldn't be happy that buses were sold, I have never seen single digit contract totals in my 16 years there, and the 1000 reminds me of the lump sum "bonus the former TWU pres sold us in 1996. Speaking of Willie, I think ND is finished for GOOD now. Imagine, Willies contract actually got you 5/3/4, and nobody in RTo voted for that. If the contract is passed by the membership, it would be because they actually believed the MTA had no money. Keep reading before you vote yes.
I agree this is a terrible contract considering what was promised and what the members and riding public were put through. We would have done better with PERB if they had acted responsibly and raised the copayments. With the HBT in so much trouble PERB was out of the question.
What surprises be is people are thinking Roger is a GOD for getting this.
Paturkey, Paturkey...crooks at the TWU...fat cats who spit on the working man...get a job, you lazy bums...high school students who know more than everyone else...crooked politicans...Bloomberg is an idiot and Bruno is a pig...blah, blah, blah.
There, I think that covers everything. On to the next subject.
Bleepburg will have to balance his budget fineing somebody else.
2% the first year would have been equal to the lump sum of $1000 but a bigger raise in the following years. Loser TWU members
Will have wait until the departmental changes are known to determine the rest.
No opinion until I see the rest of it.
I don't like this $1,000 bonus. It doesn't count in the base pay, and so it hurts the future raises. Its not that I'm worried about the money so much as the trickery involved. Everyone that's talked about it said "I'll take the $1,000." not knowing that future raises are now going to be less. (3% on top of 0% for the second year as opposed to 3% on top of 3%).
Gotta admit, the TA knew what they were doing when they came up with it though.
From the financial side of things, the TWU losers who negotiated contracts throughout the 90's allowed the Office of Labor Relations to become a big machine. They are no match for a Roger Toussaint, who started out as a rebel and today is far from one. Gone are the days of big raises, in 3 years even if the MTA's books are in good shape, the excuse will be to hold the line. No union leader, be it Roger or whoever the next guy will be, will be able to be in the same playing field as the Office of Labor Relations. Guys like me who are approaching the 1/2 century mark have no choice but the stick it out till retirement. Anyone else under 10 years of service, once the novelty of driving your own electric train wears off (and other TA jobs) will be well advised to put in your resumes to other railroads or go into another field of employment. Come 12/15/05, that 6% raise over time will have us all in the poor house considering the cost of insurance and tax hikes will greatly increase our mortgages and rents.
Personally, I thought Toussaint and Kalikow were being a bit too touchy with that hug of theirs...
Finally realizing something besides that deal, huh guys? :-P
While visting the NYCDOT website I learned that the operation of the Brooklyn-58 Street Ferry (aka Bay Ridge Ferry) has been taken over by New York Waterways as of June 24. The information is a little ambigious. Does anyone know if NYW is running their own boats or are they using the ALICE AUSTIN and the JOHN A NOBLE?Thanks.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, if Mike P. (aka RIPTA42HopeTunnel) doesn't get to answer here by noon tomorrow, I'll give him a call and let him know about this post...I dub him somewhat of an 'expert' on harbor information.
Doug: Thanks. I didn't know Mike was a harborman. I ry to keep current on martime stuff but we don't have a water version of sub-talk. Say if this is sub-talk why don't we talk about submarines. I know of one guy on this board we could nominate for "The Ancient Mariner."
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'm no expert on ferries, and my main answer man, Mr. G., is presently unavailable. I'd guess that NYW would run their own boats, though.
As an unrelated PS, a NYW ferry was sitting at the end of Riverside Pier most of today. I guess the City feared a strike at any moment.
Mike: Thanks. The 58 Street Ferry became very popular but the only way the city could run it was by cutting back on the Staten Island service. They had the boats, not the manpower.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Well, I DIDN'T mean 'expert harborman' in a literal sense...just that you usually have 'an in' with someone or another with info in the area of waterfront activities...
IINM, the ferries ran this morning, since the city had already paid for them. I was up at Fairway and I think I saw one at the dock, but I wasn't really paying attention (it didn't occur to me what I was seeing until after the fact).
In a way I'm sorry there was no strike -- the ferry to Sheepshead Bay looked like a nice ride. OTOH, the 79th Street stop was moved down to 69th at some point, so I would have had to walk a mile just to reach the ferry, and off-peak headways were lengthened to 60 minutes, with no actual schedule posted anywhere I found.
I was actually looking forward to commuting by ferries from Shea Stadium to Riverside. It would have taken forever and a day, but it would have been well worth it (for a few days, anyway). I wish I had known they were running; I got up extra-early today anyway, in case negotiations broke down sometime between 11:58 P.M. and 4:00 A.M.
It doesn't necessarily mean the boat wasn't in service (since the pier isn't exactly convenient), but I didn't see any passengers heading to Riverside Pier. It also appeared to go uptown after departure.
I don't think anyone realized the ferries were running. The ones that ran on regular routes got their regular passengers, who lucked out and didn't have to pay the fare. The ones that didn't run on regular routes ran empty. If the city had publicized that this morning's ferries were going to run no matter what, I'm sure they would have gotten some passengers.
I take that ferry to work every day. They are using NYW boats, for the Brooklyn run the boats used are the "Portuguese Princess" and the "Royal Sunshine". Boats run every half hour during the week. (Rush hour) Boats are free, and you get a free copy of the Daily News, Post or Newsday as you board and exit the boat in Brooklyn.
-Larry
I should add that today because of the strike threat, the Brooklyn - Manhattan run was taken over by the Circle Line and went to Battery Park instead of Pier 11. Was on the Miss New York, and the Miss New Jersey today.
-Larry
I found a site about the Royal Sunshine:
http://www.screamingreel.com/report289.html
http://www.screamingreel.com/report296.html
Larry, I had forgotten about your ferry-to-work travel route.
So this makes you the 'expert' harborman :)
One of my friends and I were talking last night. Instead of our usually deep discussions about the shadows cast by the parachute jump at Coney island, the physics of wooden skee balls or even the electro-mechanical wizzardry of the scoota boats, last night we were discussing the Taylor Law and how it might now impact LIRR employees.
My feeling is that once the LIRR gave up its freight operation, there was no longer any ICC regulation, hence the LIRR fell totally under the rule of the MTA. Hence, since the MTA is a state agency, the LIRR employees are simply state employees and should also be subject to the provisions of the Taylor Law. Thoughts??? Will it be tested during the LIRRs next round of contracts?
BTW: Does anyone know what type of wood skee balls were made of?
There hasn't been any ICC regulation since the ICC was eliminated in the 1980's. The question comes down to the question, are LIRR employees, state employees as the Taylor law bars state (or local government I am assuming) from striking. Given that they they work for a division of the MTA, a state agency, I would say that they are state employees and cannot strike. Now, an agency like New Jersey Transit presents more of a problem as NJT Corporation is a private firm running under state contract.
See my response to Train Dude, the Supreme Court says they are covered by federal, not state, regulations.
Now, an agency like New Jersey Transit presents more of a problem as NJT Corporation
It is my understanding that the LIRR never really gave up its corporate identity. IIRC It is a corporation whose stock is owned by the State of New York, not an agency.
To try to bolster its case before the Supreme Court, NY changed the LIRR from a stock corporation to a public benefit corporation, but the legal tapdance didn't help them any.
Does NJ have a version of the Taylor Law?
Steve, but aren't LIRR engineers FRA certified??? Even though their PAYCHECKS are state checks, wouldn't their certification give them some status above 'mere' state employees? I'm not an expert in this, so I will await others to chime in here.
BTW, why the reference to New York & Atlantic Railway? Those guys don't fit into the equation aside from them having taken over the freight duties formerly handled by LIRR employees.
I think Steve's point is that since the NY&A now handles everything which could be "interstate commerce" the LIRR could get out from under the FRA. Not so.
Correct...because the LIRR TRACKS themselves are still dual-use (passenger + freight)...only two sections that I know of are strictly freight (Bay Ridge & Bushwick branches). Well, actually three...the Garden City Secondary...but that's another story (or thread) altogether.
Actually, FRA allows common use os ROW between freight and non-regulated passenger service if certain scheduling requirements are met.
The Taylor Law (Article 14 of the New York Civil Service Law, also know formally as the "Public Employees Fair Employment Act") dates only from 1967--it came about as a result of attempts to impose the penalties in the 1947 Condon-Wadlin Act on the transit workers who went out on strike on 1 January 1966. (I think it was a dentist from Flushing who took advantage of a change in that law that allowed any citizen to go into court to demand that the strikers get fired, lose all seniority except three years if rehired, and other punitive measures.)
Condon-Wadlin was enacted because of a strike by Buffalo schoolteachers. The Condon-Wadlin firing clause was imposed by Robert Wagner when he was mayor on the Staten Island Ferry boat captains--I think that was in the fall of 1965, though it may have been earlier. Interesting that the mayor would bring down the ax on 25 or so but not on 40,000 transit workers. (Obviously, the numbers make a difference--just as Reagan fired 11,000 air traffic controllers but wouldn't act against 3,000,000 postal workers threatening to strike.)
I don't know the name of the earlier New York law (if any) that prohibited public employee strikes--it may have been based on English common law the way lots of our legal system is. Historically, these laws probably arose from the notion of the 'power of the sovereign'--the king or queen is absolute.
Most of the states (except Pennsylvania and Hawaii, I believe) have prohibitions on public employees striking. With all three branches of the current federal government obsessed with "states' rights" (except when comes to snooping on your e-mails and library visits, which are federal) it's unlikely any changes in the anti-public employee laws will occur.
One thing that would likely answer the question of LIRR status would be if the MTA does merge the LIRR with Metro-North.
Just for the record...
Robert Wagner when he was mayor on the Staten Island Ferry boat captains--I think that was in the fall of 1965, though it may have been earlier. Interesting that the mayor would bring down the ax on 25 or so but not on 40,000 transit workers.
Different mayor. Lindsay was the Mayor during the 1966 subway strike.
(Obviously, the numbers make a difference--just as Reagan fired 11,000 air traffic controllers but wouldn't act against 3,000,000 postal workers threatening to strike.)
The firing of the air controllers was Jimmy Carter's plan, which Reagan carried out.
I know Lindsay was mayor during the transit strike. My feet still remember walking from downtown Brooklyn to Bay Ridge.
A reason the Condon-Wadlin Act was amended to allow anyone to go into court was because it got the politicians off the hook. If I recall, there was a special amendment to that law to exempt the transit workers from the penalties, but it was never done for the ferry workers.
Carter, as a Southerner, would have been as anti-union as Reagan, who led the Screen Actors Guild in a strike but later turned anti-labor.
New York's Taylor Law really needs more work--it took years to get a provision in that would penalize employers like school districts who would try to provoke a strike and then balance the budget on the two-for-one penalties. I think some recent posts about the MTA suggested a similar strategy. But proving anything like that is close to impossible unless you can find written evidence of such a plan.
Ed Alfonsin
There's another side to the Taylor Law that probably seemed like cold comfort in the past but could be important now.
In private industry, when a contract runs out and there's no specific provision for extending its terms, an aggressive employer can begin to apply his own standards of work--i.e., cut wages selectively, take away certain privileges, alter hours that were set in the previous contact--as harassment if he perceives that the union can't afford to strike. He can also fire and hire replacement workers.
Under the Taylor Law the employer must continue all the terms of the expired contract while negotiations continue.
The "Triborough Doctrine," which continues provisions of a contract after expiration, was orginally an improper labor practice ruling and now part of the law itself. It's one of those trade-offs for prohibiting use of the basic workers' tool of withholding services.
(The provision was named for a decision under which the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority lost its attempt to discontinue payment of increments after a contract had expired. Across-the-boards for a given year were added only in that year, but other provisions that had no 'sunset' language limiting them to a particular year or two were to be continued--health insurance is a good example of an ongoing one, while career development funds might sunset with the contract. After a number of years, the concept was put into the law itself.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
"would have been as anti-union as Reagan, who led the Screen Actors Guild in a strike but later turned anti-labor."
Whether Reagan was anti-labor or not is a matter of opinion. Even those who came out of unions and move into management must, at times, make decisions that, in their mind is 'only doing my job' but to others, may appear to be anti-labor.
Case in point- the lawyer for the air traffic controllers union, when Reagan fired all of the controllers, is now a Labor Relations Attorney for the NYCT. The prostitution rests.
>>> the lawyer for the air traffic controllers union, when Reagan fired all of the controllers, is now a Labor Relations Attorney for the NYCT. The prostitution rests. <<<
But lawyers do not necessarily take on the views of their clients. Almost all good criminal defense attorneys start their careers working as assistant DAs. Johnnie Cochrane was once the chief assistant DA in Los Angeles. He already had a name locally as a defense attorney when he was hired by the DA.
Tom
LIRR employees do not fall under the Taylor Law. The MTA attempted to do this years ago on the basis that the railroad was not interstate and that the LIRR employees were state employees. This went all the way to the Supreme Court (yes, that Supreme Court) who ruled that there was a significant public interest in federal oversight of the railroad system and that a state couldn't get out of it simply by buying a railroad.
Possibly the State could revisit the issue if they could totally sever the LIRR from the national rail system but I don't think this would work because (1) it is a near physically impossibility, (2) the SIRy (closest analogy) is only under a waiver and (3) the Supreme Court tends to look askance at didling with earlier rulings.
Skee balls are not past tense. I know of a number of places where you can still play skee ball. A good guess is oak--very hard, very tight.
But many states can regulate railroads above and beyond what the federal government requires. Pennsylvania requires a toilet on all leading locomotives. New Jersey requires automatic speed control on all passenger trains. Many towns have had their whistle ordinances upheld in court and you mussn't forget the famout NYC No Smoke law. Unless the Feds specifically provide Railroad workers the right to strike, the state should be able to prevent state railroad workers from striking.
From the Supreme Court ruling:
[...] Application to a state-owned railroad of Congress' acknowledged authority to regulate labor relations in the railroad industry does not so impair a state's ability to carry out its constitutionally preserved sovereign function as to come in conflict with the Tenth Amendment.
[...]
To allow individual states, by acquiring railroads, to circumvent the federal system of railroad collective bargaining, or any of the other elements of federal regulation of railroads, would destroy the longstanding and comprehensive uniform scheme of federal regulation of railroads and their labor relations thought essential by Congress, and would endanger the efficient operation of the interstate rail system. Moreover, a state acquiring a railroad does so knowing that the railroad is subject to such scheme of federal regulation. [...]
Now, incredible as it may seem, the U.S. Supreme Court overrides the Court of SubTalk. Except in matters of 76th Street Station, of course.
You responded to by counter-point perfectly. Congress has SPECIFICALLY assumed the role of regulating railroad labour relations which overules the state's own in house regulation. I am surprised this case made it to the supreme court at all. A railroad has time and time again been said to be part of interstate commerse as long as it is still part of the national railroad network.
Paul, thank you Some of the info is really fascinating. My friend, who is a UTU member feels that the tide may be changing. I honestly don't know. Some of the info I've read in Progressive Railroading (I can't find the specific article right now) would indicate that recent changes in federal regulation may lead to a different outcome if tested again.
>>> My friend, who is a UTU member feels that the tide may be changing. <<<
Your friend may be right. The Supremes have lately been playing up the Tenth Amendment in many areas where federal regulation was thought to be normal for many years. The case cited could be differentiated by pointing out that it was not just the buying of the railroad by the State, but its very limited local operation. I doubt that the MTA would push the issue for the LIRR though, since it would not work for Metro North (interstate).
Tom
For it to end up before the Supreme Court (again) they would need a new test case--i.e., you can't just say "we think you're more sympathetic to us now, so here we are again."
Typically this would involve a strike threat and going to state court for an injunction under the Taylor Law. Since the Supreme Court already ruled that the Taylor Law doesn't apply the lower court would simply cite the precedent and that would be the end of that.
The MTA already used the ploy (and the Court saw it as such) of changing the LIRR from a stock corporation to a public benefit corporation. In all other respects the LIRR is the same as it was when the high court ruled 20 years ago.
An interesting topic (and very on-topic for SubTalk), which I've looked into a little, is how the subway workers ended up under the Taylor Law, since they clearly had the right to strike as private companies. A partial answer is that the TWU pretty much came in with the IND, which was civil service from day one, and thus as the TWU battled the IRT nd BMT's unions for supremacy they didn't really have much standing for trying to get their members out from under the Taylor Law.
If we were able make a test case today, we might get an interesting result, but we would probably have to find an active operating employee of the BMT or IRT who was with the system at Unification. Anyone know if Strom Thurmond ever took out on a run on Brighton Line? ;-)
Anyone know if Strom Thurmond ever took out on a run on Brighton Line?"
That's assuming Strom remembers ANYTHING past today's breakfast, if even that.
Doesn't the Taylor Law date from the 1970's? What was the law prior to the passage of the Taylor Law? And, what prompted the passage of the Taylor Law?
Taylor Law dates from 1967; directly ascribed to 1966 transit strike.
1947 - The NYS Condon-Wadlin Act continues the Common Law prohibition of strikes and enforces the prohibition through severe penalties. Striking employees are terminated with re-appointment possible only on condition that a) compensation not exceed that received prior to strike; b) no pay increase be granted for three years; and c) re-instatement be probationary for five years.
1966 - Twelve day NYC Transit strike. State Legislature grants amnesty to striking employees.
Thanks Alex.
This brings up an additional series of questions:
1. What unions represented IRT and BRT/BMT employees prior to Unification and how did TWU get to represent these employees?
2. As noted, the NYS Condon-Wadlin Act was passed/implemented 1947. What barred IND/Civil Sevrants from striking besides the Common Law, since both predate Condon-Wadlin?
>>> For it to end up before the Supreme Court (again) they would need a new test case--i.e., you can't just say "we think you're more sympathetic to us now, so here we are again." <<<
It is possible that the TA could convince a lower court that the situation now is different than what was in effect at the time the Supreme Court ruled, or the TA could appeal up the line to the Supreme Court. That is how Supreme Court decisions are overturned. It occurred with Plessey v. Ferguson, and it is attempted over and over with Roe v. Wade.
>>> A partial answer is that the TWU pretty much came in with the IND, which was civil service from day one, and thus as the TWU battled the IRT nd BMT's unions for supremacy they didn't really have much standing for trying to get their members out from under the Taylor Law. <<<
TWU history pretty much gives Mike Quill credit for organizing all subway workers. What unions were representing IRT and BMT workers before the TWU?
Tom
The IRT workers had a powerful independent union, which pulled off a swift and successful strike in 1919, which resulted in a 25% wage increase. This strike will be covered in an upcoming Third Rail.
I'm still studying the interesting ins-and-outs of the BMT situation. The BRT had a company union but the BLE made major inroads. Befpre Unification the IND-centered TWU also made inroads into the BMT.
By the '50s the MBA/CBA represented a lot of the BMT men and also (I think) on the IRT. The MBA strike (1954? 1955?) was broken with the active help of the TWU. You could say this worked in favor of the subway workers ultimately since this consolidated union power in the hands of one union (TWU) and lead to important gains such as no-layoff for conductors and the big wage increases coming out of the 1966 strike, but it was a dim chpater in unionism with one union helping management break another.
Wow ... I'm looking forward to reading THIS! Your other articles have always been WONDERFUL, sounds like another winner in the making.
If LIRR did go on strike, how would this effect NY&A? could they still operate? would mgmt. be able to line up the switches &clearance for them? I'd imagine there's got to be some sorta provision for such a sinario.
You can be sure NY&A wouldn't run, since all they have is trackage agreements with LIRR. When Amtrak strikes, LIRR is shut out of Penn.
[BTW: Does anyone know what type of wood skee balls were made of?]
That was a very nice try a humor, there is hope for you !
regarding LIRR/Taylor Law ... others seem to have covered it.
I think the more modern skee ball machines use wood looking plastic balls.
List:
Rollin', rollin' rollin'!!
Now that its time to move on, note the arrival of R-142s 7126-7130 as of December 13, 2002.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thank God, we can finally move on....
And thank you for that note. I wonder if there are any 1100 series R-142s cars to be found at the plant?
-Stef
I read about the possibility that there would be some 1100 and 1200 series R-142s. Who is going to be building the 1100 and 1200 series R-142s?
#3 West End Jeff
What are the 1100's and 1200's series R-142s. I thought they there only 7XXX's and 6XXX's. Are the a new Opt order.
Robert
This will be Option Order #2 from Bombardier (1101-1220). Option Order #1 (6981-7210), and the Primary Order (6301-6980) should hopefully be complete soon.
The reason for the Option Order #2 not using 7700 series numbers as originally planned has to do with the fact that 7731 and up will be held for the R-160 order.
-Stef
No 1100 series cars have been put together yet.
Thanks for that note!
-Stef
Add 6911-15 to the list as well. That set came in on Sat nite. Dec 14.
More junk for MTA from BombaJunk. You can be sure BombaCrackers will get a bonus for turning out trainsets ahead of schedule complete with leaking pneumatics, messed up doors and a whole lot more. The 'timers' break my chops because they see overtime. I look at the junk and wonder why SOAC cars eat up my time doing work that vendors should have taken care of. Redbirds live! CI Peter
Keep the Redbirds alive as long as you can, Peter. Has anybody decreed how many Birds will be reprieved? And you probably heard, they signed on for an ADDITIONAL option order of 120 tin cans, from Bombardier.
wayne
WHY do they keep buying subway cars that they KNOW are seriously fucked up? If they need more cars, why not just get working ones from Kawasaki, and save themselves so much trouble?
Because all the cars that were supposed to be delivered from Kawasaki has already been delivered so that leaves the 2nd option order from Bombadier left.
Kawasaki would be happy to sell the MTA some more subway cars. Why not just make an "extension" contract of R142A's?
I guess the TA want's them delievered fast and doing that would delay the order and they're just so anxious to get rid of those Redbird's.
Those additional 120 cars were ordered some time ago.
David
>>Those additional 120 cars were some time ago<<
Are these the cars with the #1100-#1200 series numbers ? I heard that they couldn't extend the numbers to the high 7000s because of a conflict with the R-160 car numbers. Is this true ?
Bill "Newkirk"
We all seem to be hearing the same thing from the same source. I haven't been able to independently verify it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Assuming it's right, these 120 cars should be the 1100s/1200s.
David
Peter I noticed you have a Redbird with my name on it every Saturday night. It doesn't matter how many redbirds run even If it only 1 set I get it for the last trip all the time.
Heres a NYTimes Article that deals with the automated announcememnts.
They feel it's pretty reliable, even if it has some glitches. I guess they expect half of the subway system to have new cars by 2005, because they claimed that by 2005 about 3000 of the 6000 cars in the fleet will have the automated announcements. Some of the glitches mentioned include a train in Brooklyn that said it was approaching Nereid Avenue, and a 6 train that announced "Last Stop" along the entire Lexington Avenue stretch in Manhattan.
The article mentions that the biggest "glitch" causer is service changes. Apparently, there was not enough memory in the on-board intelligence to program them in before they occurred. eventually they will be able to program them in.
They also claim that the R143's have screens capable of receiving news or sports scores from stations. The MTA is in the process of buying technology to carry the signal by radio frequency. Interesting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/12/technology/circuits/12subw.html?tntemail1
They also claim that the R143's have screens capable of receiving news or sports scores from stations.
How about placing a flat screen monitor behind the cab that gives riders a view from the cab - a virtual railfan window ;-)
Why would the MTA do this?
It was a joke..
Was hoping to get the attention of the railfan window fans ;-))
I grew up in the days of the R62\a. I never had the opportunity to truely railfan... So, I don't really appreaciate it as much as most SubTalkers.
When I was a kid (before I even knew I was on my way to becoming a railfan) my dad used to take me to the first car so that we could look out the front window and he WASN'T even a railfan... It was really cool.
The clear railfan window is (was) one of the real fun things in the subway. When you know what we had then and what we have now, my generation really misses them. Go to Chicago, Toronto, Philadelphia and see what it is like to stand or sit at the "rail fan" window. I don't know what other systems have, maybe other fans could let us know about them.
When I was a kid, my mom used to take me to the front of the train to look out the window. I used to press my nose up against the window and it became black by the time we went home :-).
It was a joke.
This will lead to advertising on these boards. In the current ad climate teh MTA has little chance to make any money on these advertisments
"They also claim that the R143's have screens capable of receiving news or sports scores from stations. The MTA is in the process of buying technology to carry the signal by radio frequency. Interesting."
My guess is the sports scores would be shown on the "rolling" LED screens, which currently shows reminders from the MTA? -Nick
Whatever they were original made of, skee balls are now made of "a wood compound, which is basically compressed sawdust," according to Skee-Ball Executive Vice President Mark Kane. (skeeball.com) The brown balls measure three and an eighth inches in diameter and weigh about five ounces.
I understand that if you read SubTalk religiously for four years and take an equivalency exam, you can get a Bachelor's Degree from Culver University.
In true subtalk spirit:
"Is this transit related?"
Just messin' wit' youse.
>> "Is this transit related?" <<
At least as much as SelkirkTMO's political-rants-in-the-guise-of transit-talk are...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
"Is this transit related?"
Culver University? I should hope so.
Is skee ball similar to bocce? I recall hearing that the right of way under the Culver Shuttle was a popular spot for bocce.
Yes, the SBK ROW under the Culver El was a great place for Bocce ball. The area between the rails of the South Brooklyn Railway tracks was a favorite spot for the locals to play the game. There exist a photo or two of the Bocce 'back-board' setup on the tracks, IIRC.
There you go, Peter. Right back on topic!
I saw reference recently to playing bocce on the "cinders" of the SBK (actually PP&CI) right-of-way under the Culver. But actually bocce is played on a very smooth course. I used to like to watch the Italian men smooth the course before a hame to get it just right.
There was also a bocce field near the police station at the far West End (West End! On topic again!) of the Parade Grounds. I wonder if its still there?
Not quite right. It seems that the Second City is host to Culver Hall and the Independent Transit Network Cirriculum.
Early derivatives of this education canbe traced back to the West End School of 1916.
Overseas students looking to persue study of transit planning may attend the prestigious Brighton College in England.
Here is an example of putting this knowledge to use (see page 2 of this short PDF file). It is, admittedly, right out of heypaul's playbook and IT IS TRANSIT RELATED!!
If I can be of assistance with any college matters that some of our younger subtalkers may be concerned with, please post.
--Mark
Professor Feinman:
Can you recommend a good school for Journalism Studies in NY?
Grateful,
1SF9
Assuming you mean New York State rather than NYC, Syracuse University has an excellent journalism school. There may be others, but I happen to be slightly familiar with theirs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't Columbia University also supposed to be known for its journalism program?
--Mark
Aye, thanks Dr. Mouse and Prof. Feinman;
I was asking on behalf of a relative whom would
be transferring soon.. Columbia tends to be out
of our $$$ bracket at the moment..
HUNTER came to mind first, but I hear now that they
don't carry Journalism/Communications...
Thanx Pals!
"Overseas students looking to persue study of transit planning may attend the prestigious Brighton College in England."
Ah yes, but owing to the confusing way we use words like "college" in England, Brighton College is actually a (private) high school! [I lived close to it as a boy, but I didn't go to it, because my parents couldn't afford its fees and I went to the state (public) high school instead.]
There is, however, the University of Brighton (http://www.brighton.ac.uk), where you can take a BA degree in Travel Management. In its senior year, this programme contains a course on Transport Terminals Policy and Management, which should be good for aspirant station agents.....
"I understand that if you read SubTalk religiously for four years and take an equivalency exam, you can get a Bachelor's Degree from Culver University."
I sure hope so! I dropped out of college to read and post on Subtalk.
Very interesting. My granddaughters and I often go to Nathans in Commack. They have 3 skee ball machines but the balls are some sort of resin material.
The one on Long Beach Road replaced there's with video machince & the neighbors made the bikers go away :-(
Paul: you inadvertandly turned the key and pressed 'LAUNCH.' I have repaired two generations of electronic Skee Ball machines and am still wondering why TA hired me! The first batch of electronic SBs used microswitch sensors...fifty points clicked five switches, thirty points clicked three. Almost any ball would work.
Skee Ball Two used optical switches. Wood composite balls worked fine, giant solid orange plastic balls too.....but when I ordered a case of replacement balls from Happ Controls, they were black plastic
and were not sensed. Mixed machines in an arcade ran into big problems not scoring. I was miffed about the loss of composite balls
stolen from bars and restaraunts. I fix trains now.
TA: gimme my raise NOW!!!!!! Incorperate SkeeBalls with Revenue...200 points gives you a one way ride...500 a full day pass.
Funny how I remember the electromech digital display SkeeBalls at a dime a play. I also remember 'toobs' but never want to touch an old SeeBurg again. So what is the connection??? I still fix pinball machines in a job I love... NYCTA R-142s. CI Peter
Hey, Peter...thanks for a fun posting....and the information on your 'younger days' as a skeeball mechanic
Glad to have ya back, bro ... so I take it they did the coin rejector mods in the cabs so Pacman can run again? :)
LOL....I'm dyin'
Peace,
ANDEE
If only Kronenberg still posted here.
Well he still LURKS here...and that's all that matters.
SHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!
Hey Paul... I only got wind of this thread this evening, so I'm not sure what started you off on Skee Ball... Just for the record, wood composite Skee Balls are no longer manufactured... Skee Ball only sells a brown plastic ball now...
Plastic.. Even worse.
Thank the Lord! What really makes my day is wheel gauging 38 X 0 on four axles. The drunks in the bars can smack eachother to hell with those giant plastic golfballs. Gimme R142 pinball action!!!
Skee Ball only sells a brown plastic ball now
(Sigh) Another one bites the (saw)dust...
Read the following on the 1010wins.com website:
http://1010wins.com/topstories/local_story_350172109.html
Now tell me if Mr. Recca is the world's biggest dickhead.
-Hank
With guys like that no wonder Wall Street isn't doing so well these days ;-)
Did Recca graduate from SUNY Binghamton??
What's that supposed to mean?
It's my direct experience to know some (Dickus) who come
from SUNY Bing...
Self am a citizen of SUNY Purchase.. :)
some one due for reeducation. (in a humanitarian manner of course)
rec-dum the biggus dickus
Don't buy anything from Harvey Electronics.
I wonder what happened to his chin. Looks like a burn injuries.
Or maybe someone kicked him in the face for being a cocksuckah.
ehehe
I thought it looke like teen-aged acne.
>>Don't buy anything from Harvey Electronics.<<
Harvey Electronics specializes in high end audio with high end prices.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably would have REALLY flipped if he hadn't gotten a seat. :)
Here's to hoping he has transmission trouble on the Major Deegan on his way to work or on the way home.
What a PRICK!!!
The Metro-North is not for me, it's "for the public"----You could just smell the attitude Michael "Reginald" Recca all the way down here. Hey A$$hole--keep driving we don't want you, although remember, your tax dollars help to support transit.
Michael Recca---You truly win the Biggus Dickus award!!!
Interesting comment: The banner on the 1010wins.com site has the line
"Give us 22 minutes and we'll give you the world"
Sorta sounds like the MediaBreak line in the RoboCop movies.
Interesting comment: The banner on the 1010wins.com site has the line
"Give us 22 minutes and we'll give you the world"
Sorta sounds like the MediaBreak line in the RoboCop movies.
That's been the station's slogan for many years.
"That's been the station's slogan for many years"
Why is it 22 minutes? They seem to operate in a 20 minute cycle -- headline stories at :00, :20 and :40 -- except for some features which are every 30 minutes.
I have listened to 1010 WINS-AM for many years and "Give Us 22 Minutes. We'll Give You The World" has been their slogan for many years. Whether they really give you the world in 22 minutes is another matter. BTW, you can still hear the sound of the "Teletype" machine in the backfround when you're listening to the station, even though they probably don't even use it anymore.
#3 West End Jeff
"Teletype?"
Hah! They've been gone for decades. What you hear is a digitzed recording played off a chip.
At WCBS, even when there were teletypes (which disappeared in the 80s), the sound you heard in the background was an endless loop tape.
On Topic and only marginally related: Even though Shadow/Metro Traffic is reporting on WCBS and WINS that "Transit is on or close...," uptown 8th Ave. IND services are bypassing 42nd Street due to a police action. As I went by about 30 minutes ago, there were cops towards the rear of the otherwise unoccupited platform, with areas taped off. Passengers on board my A train were advised to proceed to 59th street and transfer to downtown A trains.
Why do they even play it anymore? Not that I mind, but is it for nostalgia?
It's a signiture. No other station in NY does it.
-Hank
Hah! They've been gone for decades. What you hear is a digitzed recording played off a chip.
I seem to remember several years ago (when they were still competing stations) that WCBS ran a commercial making fun of the sound effects used on WINS, particularly the teletype in the background. I got a kick out of that, though I'm not sure I would've switched stations on that basis...
I still have my WCBS fly swatter from that ad campaign :-)
Funny... I just came back from the WCBS holiday party, and one of my colleauges brought up that same ad.
Many were lamenting the fact that the transit strike did not occur, as it makes good "news" and is good for ratings, and thus ad sales. I guess the taxi drivers aren't pleased either.
(Many were lamenting the fact that the transit strike did not occur, as it makes good "news" and is good for ratings, and thus ad sales. I guess the taxi drivers aren't pleased either.)
Perhaps they'll get lucky and have another terrorist attack.
Seriously, my sister is a saleswoman for a CBS affliate TV station. Once, when we were shooting the breeze, we started talking about the fact that the only time anyone watches network TV anymore is when something big happens. That's either the Superbowl, or something very, very bad (a normal election isn't big enough anymore, but the 2000 fiasco worked).
So I suggested having a high contingent rate for those who want to advertize during disasters. She said that during disasters they lose money because they pre-empt all the ads. Sounds like a wasted opportunity. If nothing else, insurance and home security companies must love the idea of advertizing during "intersting times." These days, and Newsradio88 gets is investment scams, herbal suplements, and purported aphrodisiacs.
These days, all Newsradio88 gets is investment scams, herbal suplements, and purported aphrodisiacs.
Newsradio 88's ads aren't too bad. You want true junk, watch some of the second-tier cable channels like Discovery Health Network or Trio.
or MSNBC ... they run things that PAX wouldn't take. :)
Jared Max used to advertise for "Body Solutions" which is now in the midst of various lawsuits for deceptive advertising practices :)
--Mark
I'll bet Kenny Cramer bought a rickshaw. :)
I remember when WCBS would use the distinctive WINS background "Teletype" sound just to make fun of WINS, I don't think that many people switched over on that basis. As one might expect, they exaggerated the "Teletype" noise just to try and win people over. One time when I was listening to WINS I heard the distinctive three note phrase that signals incoming mail on Outlook Express.
#3 West End Jeff
Public is soooo stupid.....deep sixed my Teletypes (AT+T trademark) and Navy Kleinschmidts. 60 baud is sooooooooo slowwww.
I too would ditch a "Teletype" since it is so sloooow.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> At WCBS, even when there were teletypes (which disappeared in the 80s), the sound you heard in the background was an endless loop tape. <<<
Hell, even Walter Winchell used a recording for his distinctive background.
Tom
Why is it 22 minutes?
Silly Goose! The want you to hear the *COMMERCIALS* at both ends of the newscast!
Sheesh!
At the :00, :20 and :40 they spend a minute with the headlines. So it comes out to "22 minutes to give you the world"
That's sound promising, despite the fact they report the 'News Times' without such a notice. They still play the jingle at :00, :20, and :40. Hm...
Media break took the idea from WINS. For that matter, the short-lived syndicated series was a ton of fun, with a villan, who when looked up in the computer, had his middle initial and title revealed:
(something), Cray Z., Doctor.
And such memorable locations as the E. Coli Brothers Meatpacking Plant.
-Hank
Or Sal Menella's Poultry!
wayne
Speaking of Sal Manella....where is he? He hasn't posted in a good while...
Might be sittin' on th' bowl.
wayne :o>
Maybe he's washing his hands.
He'd better!
wayne
He just left the building but I could swear I saw something dangling from his hands.
...but I could swear I saw something dangling from his hands.
Like this thread! Who'd ever know a joke would go on this long! -_-
An investment banker who disdains public transportation, Recca had overprepared. He usually drives his car from his home in Pelham to his job on Wall Street by 6 a.m. ... "This is not for me," he said, gesturing disdainfully at the Metro-North train tracks in Pelham. "This is for the public."
All this downsizing of Wall Street executives somehow doesn't seem altogether bad anymore.
Unfortunately, Mr. Dic--um..I mean, Mr. Recca's point-of-view is fairly commonplace in Los Angeles. Many people here view public transportation as the domain of "the unwashed" crowd--only the poor, minorities, the elderly, and children use it. I know people who brag that they've never used a bus or subway in their lives--and never intend to do so, under any circumstances.
These people prefer to spend hours in massive traffic jams, driving solo in their Lincoln Navigators, guzzling gas to support the Middle Eastern oil sharks and producing iodine-colored air, all while complaining to friends and colleagues on their cell phones.
As long as we're talking about MORONS, and since this probably won't make the news down in NYC, I just HAD to pass this along ...
"Cut Lott some slack, Bruno says"
Wonder if we'll ever spot Bruno on the IRT? :)
man-o-MAN!!!!!!I can't stand it!Kirk',could it be that we all were TRANSPORTED overnite to a place that only looks like America,feels like America...but just aint AMERICA? It's like some sick nightmare that you want to wake up from but can't!!!!
Sure does make you wonder ...
SOME Americans are MORE American than others, I s'pose. There's many things about Senator Joey's province that remind me WAY too much of Mississippi.
Off topic for here though, only thing remotely on topic about it is that the boy just got re-upped for another two years as Senate Majority leader and he'll be lootin' the corn-squeezing money for his own projects at the expense of the MTA.
I don't suppose you're going to have Joey over for Christmas dinner. A pity. You two have a lot to talk over and I'd bet it would be a hoot if we could get you two together and put in a recorder somewhere it couldn't be seen.
Considering Kevin's animosity where Bruno is concerned, I suspect that just might be the Fight of the Century. We should sell tickets. Might help reduce the deficit.
Well I can tell you this Dan----the Fred and Bob Show would have to take a deep back seat to the Selkirk-Bruno drama. At least Bob and I like each other, are real close friends. Those two, wow!!!! Sell tickets? I could scalp them and make a killing. Hell, even El Marko Feinmann would buy a bunch and you know it takes a lot to impress him.
Hell, even El Marko Feinman would buy a bunch and you know it takes a lot to impress him.
It does? Oh yeah, yeah, it does, it does :)
I'll volunter to do the video, but not before I get a shatterproof lens cover :)
--Mark
Pull this thing off and I'll spring for tix to upstate from Charm City.
I want 25% of the gross. It was my idea.
Your on. Now if we could get Selkirk and Bruno to agree, we'd have a great show. I don't know about poor Bob, though. He might crawl into a shell because he's been upstaged.
You've got me signed on ... but you'd better bring a few boxcars full of cash if you want Bruno to even send out a secretary. :)
Since when do we like each other, Since we met Dick head, How about Trent Lott?
NOW girls. 8-) Play nice.
Peace,
ANDEE
You got it all wrong Bobby babe. It is Dick Head. Remember you capitalize the last name. And no, I didn't tell anyone he was your lover. You just did that by dropping his name and now your secret is out. I warned you.
Only in New York ... well, I take back my snide comments about Trent Lott being a racist ... at least HE apologized. Over and over and over again. Nope, Trent has just been outdone by our own Senator Bruno ... Bruno, not happy to ENDORSE Lott's comments, went even further with his own that I linked to the other day.
Well ... New York City's City Council called on Bruno to apologize for outdoing Lott ... and wouldn't you know it? Senator Hairball REFUSES ...
Bruno comment causes stir
The same Senator Bruno that's about to lower the boom on New York City ... but hey, I see now that this wasn't just Lott going off, Bruno PROVES that racism is the domain of the republicans, official policy. And like Lott, Bruno too will remain in power. I give up.
Well what about it? I told you that El Marko Feinman will film you and Bruno in combat and we are all united behind the effort. We could even charge a hefty price and raise a ton of money. Think of all that bread going to rehabilitate my Sea Beach stations, among others. So what are you waiting for? Dan Lawrence came up with a great suggestion and we have all fallen into line supporting it. The ball is in your court Clinton, errrrr, Selkirk.
Bruno and I have already gone at it "mano a mano" before, but SURE I'll do it again. But as to making any money out of it? Bruno'll duck out with every penny. Ever see George C Scott in "Flim Flam Man?" 'nuff said. And that goes for your Sea Beast too. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. :)
Well since I have a high regard for you and have heard numerous stories about Bruno I'm beginning to believe that this guy is one real son-of-a-@#$%^. Then there is that moron Trench Mouth Lott. You would really have a lousy feeling about Republicans if you didn't know me. You would think we're all bad. But I'm here for you pal.
Once upon a time, we had a democrap we deridingly called "Padre Mario" ... and he was one genuine piece of work tax and spender. Then we got even with him when he ran for a fourth term and elected Paturkey. Paturkey was a BORROW and spender, and that's WORSE. And he's outdone Padre Mario! Unbelievable!
I *must* forgive Lott though - he's a SOUTHERNER and there's still some underlying "issues" that some of these old timers need to work out still. But Bruno is a NEW YORKER ... words CANNOT describe my shame when this a$$hole has outdone the OLD SOUTH. And then REFUSES to apologize for OUTDOING Trent. Trent repented ... Bruno WON'T. There is *NO* excuse for racist swine in NEW YORK.
Then again, Bruno's district is VERY much like Mississippi circa 1960. VERY much like ... :(
I'll settle for nothing less than a special hour on FOX with Tonya Harding as the referee. To keep it relatively on topic, we'll let Joe Bruno run a 143 and I'll take an Arnine on the same track, 1000 feet with no timers, may the best train win. :)
Nah, we're already having PATURKEY for Kissmoose dinner. We already had Joey Bruno for lunch at his precious Fort Orange Club and all he did was yammer about the various forks and serviettes while we BEGGED him to bring some technology to "Tech Valley" ... he just wanted us to move to Troy and give him some money. He HAD his chance and the grace of Bingbong's company and good sense of humor. Skew him. :)
>>>I don't suppose you're going to have Joey over for Christmas dinner. <<<
No, but he might be having Joey home AS Christmas dinner...hehehe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Although "the other white meat" is an acceptable dietary supplement in this house, there's WAY too much fat between the ears. Besides, we KNOW where it's been. Ewwww. :)
do we need anger management classes,young man?[lol!!!]
No ... we need an OPPONENT for the boy next time. Or maybe "freedom rides" to Rensselaer county ... but then again, once you GET there, ain't much to do other than admire the pretty Wal*Marts and spit on the trailers. :)
lookin' at that ''tower'' there.... one can hardly tell... by the way ,are those ''bullit holes''?
Redneck laptop of course. :)
I read that story this morning in the NY Daily News.
Only way we'll see Bruno on an IRT or any NYC Subway is if he decides to run for a statewide office. Or he gets kidnapped.
Heh. Wasn't sure if the story made it down there, no peasants bearing torches in the Albany area so I just assumed the story got buried. Wonder if the Post mentioned it being the official mouthpiece of the official regime? :)
It wasn't on the front cover. It was somewhere in the first 6 pages.
I'm amazed there was no outrage - the boy got recoronated today without so much as a whimper. Even Trent tried to repent ... not da Bruno though. :(
"Station stop: Pelham. Please keep your nose down as you exit the train ...."
--Mark
People like that make me want to vomit. Let him walk a mile in somebody elses shoes and learn some HUMILITY and some HUMANITY.
wayne
Funny, I wanted to see some people like that working a TA job for a day.
Eh....who cares? I guess some people have arrogance like that all the time and there's nothing I can do.
As for myself, I am PROUD to take public transit here in NYC, and help the envionment at the same time. Moo!
Part of the deal is No more Opto on any line more than 5 stops.The population at the rally was mostly people from bussess.Prelim Contract sounds fair ,we all knew we werent getting Monster raises but the new sick rules and no opto ,plus Medical Seems like Roger got his wish.But dont know how Mabstoa gonna like merging garages.Final thought All of you who bashed TWU tactics it seemed to have worked.Do you think T/A would of negotiated fairly if they thought the threat of a strike wasnt really there?
I'm an active trade unionist myself, I'm delighted that the strike threat is probably gone, and that a deal that is acceptable to TA employees has probably been reached. And I agree that it probably wouldn't have happened without the threat of a strike.
But I'm not so sure about this triumphalism about OPTO. One (among many) of the reasons for the decline of rail in the USA was the insistence of the unions in keeping non-existent jobs when technology changed (e.g. firemen on diesel locos). Most rapid transit systems in the world use OPTO. The TWU won't be able to fight it off for ever. In the meantime, that fight might have damaged both the pay level of their members and the financial strength of their employer, the MTA. Fewer but better paid jobs is a possibility, and given the twenty-year pension deal, the loss of jobs could have been dealt with by natural wastage with no-one actually being fired.
And yes, I do know that the NYC subway has longer trains than most other rapid transit systems in the world, which *is* a valid argument for two-person crews! But technology (e.g. CCTV in stations) exists to deal with that issue.
20 tear retirement? What's that? 25/55 for TA
Part of the OPTO problems is that it is dangerous to be alone in some places, too. This has never been adequately addressed.
Part of the OPTO problems is that it is dangerous to be alone in some places, too.
The T/O is *never* alone....
He has all of those wonderful customers crowding around him!
Though, the demise of OPTO on the (M) will keep all of the 143s on the (L). yes?
Elias
Like at 3am the drunks and the crack twins at Smith and Ninth or the gut with bleeding ulcers on his feet at 86 St.
"But I'm not so sure about this triumphalism about OPTO."
My guess is that the MTA has no plans in the next 3 years to introduce technology that would allow any kind of widespread use of OPTO. For example, I don't recall anything about installing extensive CCTV systems in the current capital plan.
Therefore OPTO offers not real savings in the current contract period, so why not drop it and offer the union a cheap victory.
If the 2008 capital plan has the money for CCTV on an entire line to test out OPTO (say the L), then the MTA can make this a non-negotiable point then. Even then, they could call it "experimental" and restrict OPTO to the one line.
It would probably be more like 2012 at the most rapid before the MTA is ready to do OPTO on any kind of a wholesale basis, even assuming the test on one line is succesful.
"Therefore OPTO offers not real savings in the current contract period, so why not drop it and offer the union a cheap victory."
So why are we (TA) preparing to implement it on the J line even as we speak?
"We" are? The J runs four cars at all times, all R-40M's and R-42's. If there are any plans to substitute with four-car R-143 trains at some or all times, this is the first I've heard of them.
"The J runs four cars at all times, all R-40M's and R-42's."
The J runs 4 cars in rush hours? I could have sworn it was 8x60'.
I meant eight cars, of course. Sorry. Eight cars at all times.
"We" are? The J runs four cars at all times, all R-40M's and R-42's.
While I don't know of any plans to substitute any of the J train's R40M-42's with R143's, I don't think I ever saw a four car J train (unless they do that late nights). I know they are 8 cars on weekends and during weekdays. Even the few times I rode the J train sort of late, I don't think I remember being on a 4 car train.
The J is 8 cars long, 24/7.
...during its rare appearances.
Odd, ZMan posted something about this the better part of a year ago. If I had the time I'd go look, but it is there somewhere.
I'm afraid I'm not going to spend the rest of the day reading all of Zman's posts in 2001 just in case I find it.
Heck, even I wouldn't look back at all of my posts.
What I had heard is that the J may have OPTO implemented on the weekends only when the full 143 order is on the property. If you've worked/ridden the J line, you've probably seen the O with a slash through it spray-painted on the platform to signify that that is where the OPTO stop car marker is to be installed.
Now whether the TA plans to go through with this remains to be seen. Remember that the TA originally wanted to implement OPTO on the C during the weekends when it was running between 168 & WTC. You know what happened to that.
Part of the deal is No more Opto on any line more than 5 stops.
How does that affect the wweekend M shuttle. Does that go back to normal? That's 8 stops.
"How does that affect the weekend M shuttle. Does that go back to normal? That's 8 stops"
Beginning 2/29/03, the M will be operated as 2 separate Opto lines. M1 will run from Metropolitan to Wyckoff. Passengers will change at Wyckoff for the M2 which will operate from Wyckoff to Myrtle.
At a later date, the overnight A local from 207 to Far Rock will be split into 15 separate OPTO shuttle lines labeled A01 - A15.
CG
ROFLMAO!!!
So in essence the riding public looses as usual
OPTO ahould be used overnights on most lines period. There is no need to run 8 car trains at 11 pm on most lines. The addtioal cost savings could have ment incresed service and greter pay for TWU members
OH well once again the union screwed its own workers of the opurtunity to make addtional money!!
GO TWU!!!!!
"OPTO ahould be used overnights on most lines period. There is no need to run 8 car trains at 11 pm on most lines."
There's very little money in overnight operations. The vast majority of runs are rush hour, midday, evening and weekend. NYCT has already cut back the number of lines that run end to end at night.
There's also a considerable cost in breaking trains in half just for the night run. And what do you do with the extra 2 cars on a 10-car train? The labor of managing that takes away from any savings.
The real OPTO money is in rush hour/midday/evening and weekend, but that will take a huge capital investment in equipment to make it safe.
Yes tremedous saving will be realized with 24 hour OPTO.
I disagree with the cost issue of spliting trains up overnight. A smart aproach to overnight OPTO would save big time.
1)use the r-68 for opto service. Most r-68 are already set up into two 4 car units. Simply split the train into two and have the two T/O assigned to the run move the drive the train. No switchman needed.
2)Only run even sets of trains. If an uneven number of runs are needed. run the odd run with a regular length train with a two man crew.
3)Redesign the coupler so that it automatically disconnects and reconnects.
4)Install digital signs on th R-68 that will be used in the OPTO service.
Running shorter routes overnight where rider need to transfer is terrible, It forces riders to avoid mass transit overnight and those who can not afford to take a cab suffer. I often take mass transit on weekends and overnihgts. If the riding public was given the option of shorter more frequent trains or longer trains, less frequent service and the hastele of transfering and waiting. What do you think they would choose?
But spliting trains means reassemblying them a mere 7 or so hours (or less later) for rush hour service...doesn't pay to do that in most cases....the savings in electrical use would be minimal in any event. So savings overall would not be substantial enough to go through the trouble of splitting trains in the first place.
PATCO runs the exact number of cars that it needs for any given run, either 6, 4, 2 or 1 cars. They have timed it down to the minute and I used to commute right at the place where they go from 6 to 4 cars. This intense attention to cost savings allowed them to go 14 years w/o a fare hike and kept ware and tear on equipment down to a minimum. The NYCT would be wise to follow their example.
Real simple in a single line route, not so simple with routes that are so long certrain trains have to leave in the early am to be positioned for rush hour. PATCO stores cars and trains at their terminals, not many terminals in NYC can store large amount of cars. You can not run single cars in NYC as they will gap out at some places.
Well of course they wouldn't run single cars, but splitting train from 8 to 4 or 10 to 5 is not that difficult. At like 12 midnight or some time insread of a full train leaving the terminal, half a train leaves. The next train is the other half. The arriving train that is not used just deadheads to the yard.
"Well of course they wouldn't run single cars, but splitting train from 8 to 4 or 10 to 5 is not that difficult."
I thought it wasn't possible to run 5 car trains with most NYCT equipment because the cars have to operate in pairs.
Most NYCT trains are 10 cars. I think you have 2 cars left over that then have to be merged into another train.
I thought it wasn't possible to run 5 car trains with most NYCT equipment because the cars have to operate in pairs.
Depends on the equipment. Redbirds are paired; many other cars are in four or five car sets, while some others are paired as well (which are which I'm not certain).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Starting with the early redbird class of cars they were pairs but with a regular coupler between them. I think the 27s started with the drawbar. In these married pairs (either kind) the A car had some equipment for the pair, while the B car had other equipment... but bot an A and a B car were needed to run together. Some with the drawbars became mismatched either via accidents, or during the GOH
Starting with the R44s they were married into four car sets, but these were 75 foot cars, so you had an A B B A consist.
The R142s have FIVE car sets A B C B A but of course ar 50' cars.
The R143s are FOUR car sets A B B A, but are the first 60' cars to be quaded.
The R160s will be FIVE car sets A B C B A, and will also be 60' cars.
Say GOOD BYE to the 75' cars.... there will prpbly be no more of them purchased.
The R142s are A-B-B-B-A in five car sets.
The key to my proposal is to design a new way to split up the trains. In the case of the R-68 fleet this would only entail only 4 points on the train to have new coupler equiptment. In addtion adding digital destination signs would reduce the need to change the side signs A more flexible nimble MTA would benifit booth the riding public and the employee's
A good example would be a W train pulls into stillwell station. The crew hits a button and the 8 car train separates into two 4 car train. T/O changes the digital destination sign. One train pulls out as a W the other as a N
One of bigest problems with the new r-142/r-43 equiptment is the unnneeded digital rout maps inside the cars which reduces flexibility of moving from one line to another.
The cost savings come also in the form of reduced wear and tear on the rail equiptment extending thier life and reducing maintnece costs.
Multiply the cost savings over a number of years and all the lines operated by the MTA and you will find it is substancial
The key to my proposal is to design a new way to split up the trains. In the case of the R-68 fleet this would only entail only 4 points on the train to have new coupler equiptment. In addtion adding digital destination signs would reduce the need to change the side signs A more flexible nimble MTA would benifit booth the riding public and the employee's
A good example would be a W train pulls into stillwell station. The crew hits a button and the 8 car train separates into two 4 car train. T/O changes the digital destination sign. One train pulls out as a W the other as a N
One of bigest problems with the new r-142/r-43 equiptment is the unnneeded digital rout maps inside the cars which reduces flexibility of moving from one line to another.
The cost savings come also in the form of reduced wear and tear on the rail equiptment extending thier life and reducing maintnece costs.
Multiply the cost savings over a number of years and all the lines operated by the MTA and you will find it is substancial
Still sounds like your're playing 'musical cars' to me...splitting up trains for a mere few hours of use just to re-assemble them for the morning rush doesn't make a heck of alot of sense...
Nah, vor might want to go for pin-pulling duty. A quarter turn with a nutcracker oughta cure that. :)
LOL!
Do I lie? :)
Nothing like trying OUT a gig before filing a report on it.
It makes very good economic sense espeically in a system as larger as NYC Trasit.
If NYC transit was operotarated as a for profit company you can bet your bottom dollar that they would find a way to make it work.
More difficult supply chain issues have been solved by business over the years
Don't forget NYCT is a 24-hour system...no 'downtime' to waste time spliting and re-assembling cars/train sets....that's how other Municipalities can afford to do those 'switch-a-roonie' kinda things...
The time required to spit and reassemble train sets can be reduced if someone with a vested interest wanted to make it so.
It is just a matter of wanting to solve a problem.
Educate me : How long does it take to take apart a 8 car linked bar r-68 trainset ?
Hoe long does it take to put it back together?
What are the steps?
How can some or all of the process be automated?
"If NYC transit was operotarated as a for profit company you can bet your bottom dollar that they would find a way to make it work. "
And we would be paying $5.00 or more each way.
We would not because the public would not use the service. The private operator would invest in technology to reduce operating costs.
The cost of the technology would be offset by the reduction in overhead and salaries
1)Energy efficent lights would be installed. Turned off when not in use.
2) full automated train operation with station gates would be used where possible
3)tooken booth clerks would be limited to one per station and possible none per station based on the time of day. Busier station would have none while station with security issues would have someone to monitor the station.
4) the layers of management would be stream lines
5) Busy station concourses would be filled with stores where possible generating another source of revenue.
The mta can literally shed 1/3 of its work force and no skip a beat if the proper technology were put in place. How many muggings have thier been PATH's manhattan stations?
The mta can literally shed 1/3 of its work force and no skip a beat if the proper technology were put in place.
Yeah because there's nothing like having more unemployed in this city. Why is it that people are so intent on finding ways of getting rid of other people's jobs?
I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate if I said "I think we don't need any more of in NYC, let's find reasons to get rid of you."
The higher taxes used to support unneeded public sector jobs chases away good paying private sector jobs.
And likewise. Those in NYC are paying higher property taxes to support those who work outside the city and still utilize NYC services. Should we kick those out of NYC that don't pay NYC taxes?
Those in NYC are paying higher property taxes to support those who work outside the city and still utilize NYC services. Should we kick those out of NYC that don't pay NYC taxes?
We've been over this before, many times. Suburban commuters are a terrific deal for the city. They pay taxes and spend money, yet place few demands on city services. They don't send their children to city schools, don't use the city's array of social services, are relatively unlikely to use city hospitals (and if they do, they have health insurance), and make little use of city parks, libraries, and other amenities.
It makes very good economic sense espeically in a system as larger as NYC Trasit.
Actually, it would be more expensive. At present, you need 1 T/O and 1 C/R. Under your plan, you'd need 2 T/O's.
It's more expensive to operate smaller, more frequent trains. And splitting them up requires more workers, to do the splitting.
And another thing: Do you actually ride trains after 11pm? It's always funny when you guys come up with these ridiculous ideas to screw the nighttime riders. I've ridden at night a few times recently. The "A" train gets to a standing room only point at 42nd st, and remains that way for a while. This is at 11:30pm. I imagine that it does eventually drop off, but it would still be significant. New York never sleeps. And that's literal.
Yes - I've experienced that too, on a variety of lines during late-night hours.
Moreover, as a passenger, I really don't like the idea of trains being staffed by only one person, especially if I am not in the first car. Anything can happen, and I think just the presence of a second person (ie, the conductor) would help deter crime.
I do however understand the logic of OPTO for such things as the 42nd Street Shuttle.
Peter on 75 ft cars riders are already all by themselves. Have been for many years. Unless the conductor is in your car he is of no use. The shorter trains increases the chances one of the patroling police oficers will be in your car increasing saftey.
As my many posts have stated in the past. Impliment OPTO where it makes sense. Some lines warrent full length trains most do not.
I can speak of the Q brighton line. If you begin OPTO at about 10 or 11 pm on the Q at brighton terminal. THe first Q reaches 34th street at about 10:40 or so. By that time the Q is at about 50% of seats full. At the current 20 minute overnight interval on the Q the train is about 40% full on average. I get out of night class at a school near the 34th street station at around 10 PM a few nights a week. I also utilize the Q to come home from the city at all hours of the night.
The "A" train gets to a standing room only point at 42nd st, and remains that way for a while. This is at 11:30pm. I imagine that it does eventually drop off, but it would still be significant.
As one goes out with friends till all hours of the night, and working odd hours too, let me assure you the A never really drops off. You can get seats at some point, but it is NEVER empty.
Same thing goes for the E in Manhattan, and for the 4 from what I've seen.
Then again the N and R are dead except for a few stops in manhattan where if you need to stand it is far better then paying $2.50 a ride
The 1/2 is crush loaded well after midnight between 42nd and 96th (and beyond?). Not just crowded -- crush loaded. But south of 42nd the passengers could fit into one car and still have seats left over.
If the riding public was given the option of shorter more frequent trains or longer trains, less frequent service and the hastele of transfering and waiting. What do you think they would choose?
They would choose longer, more frequent trains that went door to door.
Right after 9/11, when 8 car M trains were running on the SeaBeach, we couldn't get them to wait at the 8 car marker. Now, with 10 car trains, they wait past the 10 car marker and have to run for the train. You want 4 car trains? No one will ever get on, especially at stations with entrances only at either end.
No one will ever get on, especially at stations with entrances only at either end.
No, you'll get someone holding the door for everyone to catch up, even the ones that feel like they're so great that they can walk the 300' because someone will hold the doors for them.
Happens on the G all the time.
I really don't want to sound too condescending torward the riding public, but there are many (not saying all, not even saying most) that aren't particularly bright. The G has run four cars since 12/16/01, and still, the same people run for the train day after day after day.
Of course the T/O or C/R being courteous and professional (in most cases) waits. And this is on a 6 to 10 minute headway (midday).
Now imagine this on every line, during midnight hours. You already waited 15-20 minutes for the train (If you've had to make a connection or two, you're in pretty bad shape). You just want to get home. But people are holding the doors for their coworker/friend who is taking their time walking 300' to the train because they were waiting at the opposite end (like every other night).
On a 20 minute (or more if they cut train length and service) headway, you think that customers knowing its going to be 20+ minutes are going to let the train leave without getting everyone on the platform?
Or how about at the express stops where you come down the stairs, and the doors are closing. A conductor, on a large headway will probably open those doors back up for you (unless he's a prick). But the T/O has to check indication, then walk over to the over side, and release a full service brake. You're standing there a good 15 seconds before he leaves. In that time a C/R would have had you on the train and moving (unless you hold the doors for someone). Even on local stops, the T/O has to release a full service (remember T/O's here, proper OPTOP operation, F/S brake and hand off handle).
Are you still praising OPTO? Because for those few dollars that the TA is saving it could become a major inconvenience to riders (including you).
The MTA just have not implimented OPTO correctlly
First, The area where the train will stop should be clearly marked. A good idea would have the gap extrender or tiles closes to the platform edge be a different color. Have the train stop closest to the most heavily used stairway or transfer point in the station. Add signage clearly stating where the train will not be stoping and supliment the signage with station announcements.
"You're standing there a good 15 seconds before he leaves"
Make modifications to car systems to aliviate this situation. Possibly add the brake control to both sides of the train.
To make a long story short. Identify the problems with the current OPTO implimentation and work to fix them one by one.
First, The area where the train will stop should be clearly marked. A good idea would have the gap extrender or tiles closes to the platform edge be a different color.
I agree with that. At stations where they are running short OPTO trains, it should be cleaerly marked where the train is going to stop; not the stupid photocopied papers they put up on the columns at stations such as on the M line, where kids rip them off anyway - and even more so at stations that always have short trains like on the G Line.
They should so something like they do on the LIRR. At many LIRR platforms, such as on the Babylon branch, they have green platform edges and signs clearly stating that "Off-Peak trains stop in Green area". There is no reason they couldn't do that at M line weekend shuttle stations, or at G line stations, etc. It would not even cost that much.
Make modifications to car systems to aliviate this situation. Possibly add the brake control to both sides of the train.
Now *there* is a guy who has NEVER seen the inside of a subway train!
They don't work that way fella!
Possibly add the brake control to both sides of the train.
Explain how that helps.
Brake controls on both sideds of the train? Currently the left side has the route sign. Where would you put the sign? You'd also have to put another vision glass in. Very expensive modification indeed!
The left side doesn't have the route sign on the newest (or oldest) equipment, only the R-40 through R-110B.
More useful would be door controls for the left side by the operating position on the right, along with CCTV so the T/O can watch the doors on the left without crossing the cab.
"More useful would be door controls for the left side by the operating position on the right, along with CCTV so the T/O can watch the doors on the left without crossing the cab."
How does the M, G, and 5 operate safely in OPTO mode at stations where the doors open on the left? The T/O can't be watching the platform as the train leaves the station.
Also, controls for the left hand doors on the right side certainly would be needed if OPTO ever is used on long trains. But it seems to me that right now the issue of the T/O crossing over is more one of additional fatigue rather than dwell time. Taking a quick look at the track maps, it looks to me that at close to 75% of stops the doors open on the right.
How does the M, G, and 5 operate safely in OPTO mode at stations where the doors open on the left? The T/O can't be watching the platform as the train leaves the station.
He can't watch the platform no matter which side it is on. Now you see one of the reasons why the union always said OPTO was unsafe.
But with CCTV and monitors inside the cab, he can.
(More importantly, with CCTV and monitors inside the cab, we railfans can get our window back!)
So the T/O watches T.V. instead of the road ahead of him.
The T/O watches both as the train leaves the station (the same way I can look out the windshield and still keep an eye on the rear view mirror when I drive a car).
And tell me how does the bus driver watch the curb side of of the bus when he is pulling off the curb?
The train operator is on tracks and does not have to contend with other vehicular trafic, pedestrians, bycycles etc. Monitoring cctv cameras on screens directly in front of the T/O and driving the train is far less skill then is needed to drive a bus or car for that matter. When you drive a bus or car you utilize multiple mirrors to assist you in driving.
The saftey bennifits of watching the platform when trains enter and leave the station is a bit overrated.
I have been studing this issue and watching conductors as trains enter and leave the station for about 10 years.
1)Many Conductors rarely look up and down the train to look for people two close to the tracks. I have observed many who simply look straight ahead into space and close thier windows halfway to the tunnel. When the conductors position reaches the tunnel opening half the train remains in the station.
A bus is 40 feet long. 1 unit if someone is dragged he'll either hear them or the yelling passengers, no doubt about it.
The shortest OPTO train in the NYCT system is 150' (Prospect Park), 2 75 foot units, end doors are locked. So if someone is being dragged in the second car its unlikely the T/O will know until its way too late.
Not true.
There were at least two incidents over the past few years where a passenger got caught under the rear wheel or an RTS last year.
In addtion passenger often bang on buses when the bus driver begins to pull away and they want to get on. The bus drivers routinly ignor this not even agnoledging the sounds and not rechecking their mirror
Sit up fron ton a NYCTA bus for a few hours and get back to me
Once a NYCT bus pulls away from the bus stop, the bus operator is not suppposed to pick up anyone until he/she pulls into the next bus stop.
Transverse cabs have door controls on both sides of the cab.
The mTA has done a poor job of making OPTO a palitable option to the UNION. The MTA has once again failed the public and the public is going to pay the price for this failure
This contract the MTA signed with union is absolutly unacceptable tot he riding public,
I have no problem with giving the union the raise they recieved but the MTA failure to win productivity enhancements is a crime.
>>> But it seems to me that right now the issue of the T/O crossing over is more one of additional fatigue rather than dwell time <<<
Actually rather than being fatiguing, the opportunity to leave the operating position and walk a few steps would be more healthful than sitting in the same place for the full run.
Tom
rather than being fatiguing, the opportunity to leave the operating position and walk a few steps would be more healthful than sitting in the same place
Apples and Oranges!
Yes, it *is* fatiguing.
Yes, it *is* more healthful.
EXERCISE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FATIGUING!
But do you really want a fatigued train operator?
Elias
>>> EXERCISE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FATIGUING! <<<
Exercise as done in a gym to build muscles (including the heart muscle) is fatiguing, but getting up from a seat and moving a few steps relieves the monotony of the job, which is also fatiguing. When driving long distances, it is much more fatiguing to stay seated behind the wheel for long periods of time than to stop the car and get out of it and walk around it and get back in and resume driving. The same is true of repetitive factory jobs where a worker is doing the same few motions over and over again. A T/O sitting at the controls is not dissimilar to the factory worker doing repetitive motions.
Tom
Who needs endsigns? Most of the time they run down the staris and yell "What train is this?"
(I really don't want to sound too condescending torward the riding public, but there are many (not saying all, not even saying most) that aren't particularly bright. The G has run four cars since 12/16/01, and still, the same people run for the train day after day after day.)
Sounds like the TA could get a "productivity gain" if the Conductor just made a little announcement every now and then on how to use the subway effectively as the train rolled down the road. Such as "attention you passengers, and you know who you are, who haven't figured out where the G train stops. I've got the secret for you. See that sign with a 4 on it? That's the front...")
Except it would be a 6-car stop since it's 75' equipment
And it would be the OPTO stop marker on weekends, which isn't necessarily in the same place as the 6-car marker. I think that's part of the problem -- the train is always the same length but it stops at different places on different days of the week.
LOL. Don't tempt me, I would. (I'm one of those guys on the New Tech's that would play "For your safety, do not hold train doors open while the train is in the station." 20 times after pulling out when people held the doors. :)
Oh, and for your safety please hold the doors ONLY when the train is INSIDE the station (outside would be a bad thing).
In reponse to Jeff H, its a bit tracky. 6 car stop marker, 4 car Conductor's board (when applicable).
What they should do about signage is the same as with Hoyt St/Schermerhorn St, the hanging Route destination signs ("G Crosstown Local to Smith-9 Sts") outside the limits of the train have been replaced with "G Trains stop at middle of platform" with an arrow to aid those who can't find the middle.
Alex, I didn't mean you specifically when I used the word "you", but as a general term referring to the public. Realized it could be taken that way after I hit post d'oh!
Not to worry. Unlike some, I can usually tell when I'm being picked on. 8-)
does OPTO work well on the (5) at night?
If I remember correctly, those stations all have one entrance (I don't do midnights and am not OPTO-qualified), so it probably isn't a major problem waiting for people at odd locations to run for the train.
You know, your foul sense of humor and condescending attitude throughout this whole thing leaves much to be desired.
Thankfully, this whole MTA vs. TWU thing will be over quickly and you will be able to give your opinion on something you actually know a little something about, like redbirds vs. R142s, which line is the best/worst, the best equipment, the best station, or something along those lines.
What about the Dyre Avenue shuttle. I count 6 stops.
Collapse those cabs.
They're probably better off getting rid of OPTO altogether if in truth it is unsafe.
#3 West End Jeff
OPTO is the final frontier (except NOPTO) of labor saving--the MTA's biggest expense. I wonder if they asked people "you can have one operator on every train and a $1.50 base fare of two and a base fare of $2.50" which do you think most people would vote for?
That is a very good question.
#3 West End Jeff
Make sure you tell them it also means shorter trains as well.
Make sure you tell them it also means shorter trains as well
But why does it mean shorter trains?.
Why exactly do people think OPTO is unsafe on ten car trains (where the back of the train might be 600 feet from the T/O) but ok on five car trains (300 feet).
Surely if OPTO is safe for a five car train (and experience elsewhere says it is), then it is just as safe for full length trains.
During day time hours short trains are not possible on most line's.
If people realized that if the MTA would run shorter trains overnihgt and on weekends. Reduce to one the number of token booths open at a station at one time and some other minor cost saving measures that could be immediatly implimnented that would allow the MTA to keep the fare under $2 they would jump at the oppurtunity.
The MTA hs failed the riding public with this contract. MTA workers deserve a raise to keep up with imflation but, the productivity enhancements have not gone far enough.
The MTA has failed the riding public with its lack of accounting.
The MTA has failed the riding public in countless ways. It is about time the public demands they get thier act together. THe straphangers campaign is not the answer. Their agenda is not inline with that of the riding public. It is time that they keep accurate books and allow the public to audit them. We are paying far to much for thier lack of accountablity
IF any subtalkers are interesting in forming such a group I would be interested in helping it get off the ground
We can not afford anymore 2 broadway fiasco's. The reason at the time the mta gave when it outbid Goldman Sachs for the building (golman sachs is moving 1/3 of its employees to a new building in jersey city which it decided to build after being outbid by the mta) was that it needed to immetialy vacate the columbus circel site. 3 years latter and $200 million overbudget the building is still half empty. The MTA could have signed on to be the anchor tenant of the office tower over the atlantic ave/flatbus ave complex saving hundreds of millions and genrating incresed tax revenues for the city.
I can live with inflated salaries for line worker because the money they make gets dumped back into the economy but their needs to be a serious reduction in headcount and the workers need to more accountable for thier actions.
>>OPTO is the final frontier <<
And most everyone else has gotten there.
As to train length, BART ten car trains are as long as anythig NYCT runs (10x72), riders CAN learn to wait if specific areas of stations.
As to safety, in the long run having more transit cops roving the system is far better than hoping the C/R is in the car where you have trouble. I expect full OPTO before the SAS.
"I wonder if they asked people "you can have one operator on every train and a $1.50 base fare of two and a base fare of $2.50" which do you think most people would vote for?"
This is not the OPTO question at the current moment.
1. OPTO on all trains would save far less than $1 of the fare; given that subway operations just break even, C/Rs aren't 40% of subway expenses. And they are 0% of bus expenses.
2. People are really pissed at the extra dwell times of the long buses. They'd be even more pissed at 4-car trains. They probably wouldn't notice the extra dwell time of 10 car trains, but 10 car OPTO will take a lot of time to implement.
I predict that in the next contract the MTA will want to bring OPTO back as an experiment on the L. Then if that's succesful, a few more lines in the following contract.
Have you ever ridden the L on a Saturday night? I am not exaggerating that those trains are very crowded on a 12 minute headway. The L would need a 5 minute evening headway if you want OPTO there.
"Have you ever ridden the L on a Saturday night? I am not exaggerating that those trains are very crowded on a 12 minute headway."
I know the L is crowded. Why would it need a shorter headway if running OPTO? I was referring to 480' or 600' trains, not 240' or 300' trains. I specifically said people would dislike 4-car trains.
I realize that OPTO on long trains requires a lot of technology improvements, but that's why I was saying the MTA might propose it in 2005 (implying for implementation some time in the 3 years that followed).
You would need shorter headways because TA policy is that OPTO trains are 1/2 length trains. In the case of the L line, a full length train is 480", so an OPTO train would be 240'. If you are advocating full length OPTO trains here is my problem: at each 8 car marker you would need a functioning video screen (tough to see 480' or 600' on a 10 car line clearly), also in the case of a door problem the lone crew member may need to walk all the way to the last car. Many times our customers discard AA or AAA batteries on the floor. Many times a customer may inadvertantly kick one into a doorway while the train makes a station stop. That tiny battery, thanks to the door mod a few years ago, will prevent the door from closing completely. This will cause a longer delay than if the conductor, stationed in the middle of the train, had taken care of the problem.
Down in DC there only one Operator on the train. How come do we rarely hear complaints?
Because the train is operated almost totally automatically. The only thing the operator does under normal circumstances is closes the doors and announces the stations. Often, when there are problems with the trian, they rarely go and look for the problem, they just discharge, do a bed check, and get out of there so the backed up trains can get in.
The DC system was newly made for OPTO. No curved or unlevel platforms (34/Sixth), no poles in the stations, full length trains are shorter than 600' or 480' to my knowlege.
Our platforms are 600 feet long (8 x 75) but we don't have enough cars to run more than 6 on most lines during rush hour. Most trains are 6 or 4 cars.
>>> You would need shorter headways because TA policy is that OPTO trains are 1/2 length trains. <<<
If the TA was serious about implementing OPTO (with TV in cab, etc.) it could change the policy about ½ length trains.
>>> Many times a customer may inadvertantly kick one into a doorway while the train makes a station stop. That tiny battery, thanks to the door mod a few years ago, will prevent the door from closing completely. This will cause a longer delay than if the conductor, stationed in the middle of the train, had taken care of the problem. <<<
When you say "many times" are you talking about multiple times on one run? I think not. This same argument could be used to suggest there should be a C/R in each car.
Tom
All you need is one of these incidents on a heavy corridor like the Queens IND or the Lex and the result will be the whole rush period shot to hell.
You would need shorter headways because TA policy is that OPTO trains are 1/2 length trains.
So change TA policy.
Have you ever ridden the L on a Saturday night? I am not exaggerating that those trains are very crowded on a 12 minute headway.
There is no way they could run short trains on the L Line. Forget Saturday nights, the L is busy almost every night, even after midnight many times. Many times it is hard to find a seat, even around 11:00 P.M. on the L, especially between Union Square and about Montrose Avenue.
(OPTO is the final frontier (except NOPTO) of labor saving--the MTA's biggest expense.)
I don't have the figures in front of me, but I remember being surprised at how few train operators and conductors there were. Like 7,000 between them, or less. Lots of station agents, tower operators, car maintainers, ROW maintainers, etc.
Still, I think the reductions in cost with OPTO could exceed any reductions in service, if it's done right. For example, you could put conductors on the platforms in curved or crowded stations. Or, you could have conductors begin and end their trips partway through each run, since the trains are less crowded in outer stations.
For example, on the F you could put a crew room at Church Avenue, and the conductors could join or end each run there. The stations are straight, and the trains are less crowded, south of there. That would mean you'd need fewer conductors. Perhaps on beach days, you'd put someone on the platform at Stillwell.
How much safer are you with a 2-man crew? If it's a safety issue, the all late night OPTO trains should have a cop on them.
All late night trains for that matter. Currently any line that uses 75ft cars has people locked in cars all by themselves unattended.
Shorter trains means less cars to patrol for the existing police patrol
They're probably better off getting rid of OPTO altogether if in truth it is unsafe.
The idea that OPTO is unsafe is frankly laughable. It has been in widespread use since the 1970s and is now the norm on practically every transit operation world-wide. I cannot recall a single transit accident that has ever been blamed on OPTO.
There are at least three different variants of OPTO in use.
The original 60/70's style OPTO kept a head-end train operator for emergencies and to operate the doors, but had computers drive the trains.
Later systems moved back towards having the train operators drive the trains, as well as operating doors. Some systems like Paris use automated driving during peaks, because it is better at maintaining the short headways, but have the operators drive manually off-peak and on less busy lines so they don't lose practice.
The most recent systems use fully automated driving and the train operator becomes more customer facing (often called a train captain) and is able to move through the train. In other words there is no-one at the front of the train.
This latter seems (surprisingly) to be pretty well accepted by customers. I think the fact it results in full-width railfan windows (not to mention fights between kids who want to 'drive the train') outweighs the worries after a short while.
Those who said OPTO is gone under the new contract are full of {name appropriate substance here}. I talked to one of the key subway scheduling people, and she told me that there is nothing in the new contract or in any memorandum of understanding that changes OPTO in the least, or gets rid of it altogether.
David
Shit. Piss. Fuck.
Sorry. But I've always wanted to say that. That's what the mayor says in Taking of the Pelham 123.
And that's my response to no OPTO. You don't know how sick and tired I am of C/R's who run on the train at the last minute, or just after we get starting lights, while the T/D is looking at me, the T/O, asking, "why aren't you moving". And even though I haven't hit any signals yet, I'd still rather be alone, so I don't have to worry about someone banging me in to Control.
BRING BACK OPTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OPTO works really well on the Philly Market -Frankford El. But I think we only go to 6 cars long, not 8 or 10.
Chuck Greene
I take it they have TD's that can't spot the warm glow of the indication fairy over the air gauge? Nope, don't mind me, rhetorical question. :)
More like TDs who can't see the obvious: train no go with doors open.
Pardon my illogic. I'd think if they were leaning into the cab window (as they always did) they'd never notice them red lights along the carbodsky sides. But the lack of da sacred lamp might have been a clue. :)
But yeah, that'd be an obvious clue also. And we didn't have bing-bongs back in my day (another clue).
Don't worry. Do you know how many C/Rs say the same thing about T/Os that can't charge a train before the lights go on?
Go to "http://www.twulocal100.org/" to view the summary of the proposed contract. I would think that the elimination of OPTO and the reported consolidation of TA & MABSTOA bus operations would be very prominent, but I am mistaken. Perhaps it was in the newspapers, I haven't read once since Friday as I am disgusted with all the published mud slinging at the workers. I am confident that the membership, thanks to the new leadership, will get much more info when they are asked to approve or disapprove the tentative agreement.
" I would think that the elimination of OPTO and the reported consolidation of TA & MABSTOA bus operations would be very prominent, but I am mistaken."
See http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/18/nyregion/18RULE.html for some details of the contract.
Based mostly on the MTA point of view, but not inflammatory in any way.
Mentions the bus merger prominently, but doesn't mention OPTO at all.
In a low key manner, the article riases the question of whether even the MTA thinks that there is much money in what the MTA calls the productivity issues (such as cleaners being allowed to change light bulbs). It's clear from the article the MTA didn't push for them very hard.
The sort of opto that this thread is discussing (T/O operates doors and drives train; no C/O) is pretty old technology to most transit operations.
It also has customer perception disadvantages, because passengers prefer the presence of accessible on-train staff.
So I would suggest that the MTA should by-pass that stage of opto evolution, and go for the automated driving that we are starting to see (Meteor in Paris; DLR in London; SkyTrain in Vancouver). Despite the AirTrain fiasco it does work.
Basically each train carries an operator (call him a train captain or whatever) whose principal duties are customer facing, but who is trained to drive the train at limited speed in an emergency. In normal operation, the train is driven fully automatically.
The MTA is currently implimenting this system on the L line as we speak. The only problem is that the mta has estimated it will take until 2030 to have the entire system wired up
The advanced OPTO utilizing CCTV would be an interum solution that is far less costly to implimnet these days due to wireless digital cameras that cost a fraction of what it cost to impliment a wired system. With the level of service that NYCT runs it would be a huge cost saver.
Haven't seen this anywhere. I can't imagine that they'd limit OPTO to 5-stop lines or fewer, as this would eliminate OPTO on every train not using the letter "S". Perhaps there was some agreement to not expand it to the levels the TA would want.
Haven't seen this anywhere. I can't imagine that they'd limit OPTO to 5-stop lines or fewer, as this would eliminate OPTO on every train not using the letter "S".
*That* was a JOKE!
I fiduew that out by the time the got to train (A25)
: ) Elias
Going back to making and breaking trains.
When I was a kid, at the beginning of the evening rush hour, the 4 car 'AA' on which I was riding, would couple onto the previous 4 car 'AA' to make an 8 car 'BB' before opening the doors at 168th - Washington Hts. After the two 'AA's were coupled, the T/O would then open the cab door and rearange the chains between the cars at the point of coupling. In the meantime the C/R was opening the doors. This was reversed at the end of the rush hour.
Chicago has OPTO - the T/O has to get out of the cab and cross the car to get to the door controls in order to open and close the doors when the platform is on the other side of the train. I think this is the case even during the rush hour - at least on some of the trains.
Minor minor point ... those 4 car AA's became "B" trains (rather than "BB") ... I used to do some WAA there putting them together and breaking them up many many years ago ... breaking them would be a major pain sometimes if the cutting valve didn't wanna go, and you'd have to go down between cars to crack the locks. Went pretty smoothly when things worked, but if you had a problem with a cut or an add, the railroad got screwed up. That was one of the reasons why cuts and adds at terminals could get dicey, especially going INTO a rush hour and probably why they did away with it to benefit reliability.
Minor minor point ... those 4 car AA's became "B" trains (rather than "BB") ... I used to do some WAA there putting them together and breaking them up many many years ago ...
Sorry, they did become 'BB'. I am talking about the time before the 6th Avenue Express Tracks were opened and the rush hour 'BB' terminated at 34th Street.
Do you remember if there was any other service terminating at 34th Street at that time? Was there any other service on the 'Express Tracks' at that time? Were those 'Express Tracks' used during non rush hours at all?
What would have run on the 6th Avenue Local tracks -- would it have been the 'F' to Brooklyn and the 'D' to Hudson Terminal?
Wow ... sorry about that, you're older than I am then. :)
It was the D that ran on the Culver then and the F went to 2nd Avenue (I *think*) ... the time period for me working the AA/B was 1970/71. I had no idea they were doing the cuts that far back. In my day, it was almost always R32's although the occasional Arnines would roll in (my faves) and they were always cantankerous when you wanted to cut or add them. The ones that came apart and went back together reasonably easy were on the Queens lines since they were madmen out there with cuts and adds.
But alas, I don't know the answer for certain back when the BB ran ...
Wow ... sorry about that, you're older than I am then. :)
I was born in 1938. Our station was 168th St on Washington Heights. (served by both IRT & IND) By the time I was old enough that I was aware that I was love with the Arnines, I was probably 5 or 6 years old (1944 or so?). I think I was love with them before I was born. I am presuming that my mother and father would be riding the IND - to which my father would, on occasion, refer for many years as, "The new subway"). We took the IRT to The Bronx to my grandmother's house - that is when we did not take the trolleys - which was most of the time.
Incidentally, I remember the first time that I heard busses (yech) running on Amsterdam Avenue. I asked my father if the trolleys were coming back and he said, 'No.' But he also said that we would walk over to Broadway and take those streetcars to 155th Street for the Crosstown trolley.
Sometimes it's nice to be older - I have so many memories.
Indeed ... well, I'm a pup - 1951 for me. Got to ride the last of the Bronx streetcars though I was too young to be able to tell them from busses except that they only had one headlight and no steering wheel. With the Macks and the early GM's that became MaBSToA eventually, it WAS hard to tell the difference.
My childhood dream got fulfilled though - before they went away I actually got to *RUN* Arnines. And just a few weeks ago, got to do it AGAIN at Branford. I'm STILL in love with them. :)
I think that by 1951 the streetcars you were riding were coming in from Westchester County - Yonkers or (?) Mt. Vernon. I think that the last Trolleys in The Bronx went out in 1948 (sob).
Webster Avenue ... 1954 I think was the last time I saw them. Too young to have "gotten it" though. :(
I am thinking even pre-Culver. (I vaguely remember when that connection opened up.)
When we went to Coney Island, we had to do what we are doing today - change to the BMT at 34th Street. I don't know which service we used to get to Coney Island.
I remember when my father took me to see the new stations on the IND at some place called 'Euclid Avenue' - they had fluorescent lights!
Heh. HERESY! The warm glow of the flickering 25 cycle incandescents provided a nice mood for the place. And made the Arnines seem brighter. That fluorescent nonsense was inspired by those awful R10's. :)
I liked the R10's. Just as now, I like the R32' & R38's and my beloved Red Birds. But my favorites remain the Arnines. My dream is that someday I will be able to ride a restored set of Arnines. I imagine that this is asking for the moon!
The city transit museum DOES have some, and Branford has 1689. Branford's baby is in DELIGHTFUL shape and runs NICELY. :)
I know, I ran it many years ago at Branford. It is not the same as a good run down Central Park West or a good burn into 42nd Street!
Years ago George Horn (he's even older than I) told me of the time that he flew into 42nd Street/8th Avenue, with a string of Arnines, heading down the hill on the post until he hit the beginning of the platform. He said he took one application, one partial release and stopped right at the ten car marker. When he got to the end of the line, his Conductor came up to him and said that he didn't think they were going to stop at 42nd Street that day. He really knew his equipment. That must have been some ride.
Heh. The CPW run WAS nice, as was the Brighton run too. Used to do two round trips a day on them for a living. And yeah, if you had a good train you could fly, and stop on a dime. Alas, Branford's about as good as it gets these days. :(
Riding them was OK - RUNNING them was the teats. :)
I'd like to say that I can imagine it, but one has to have lived it to know it and savor it.
Amen ... it was one of the NICE things about working the TA. And so many of my coworkers would rather take one of the new shiny trains out, I'd often get my wish. :)
I had a BLAST playing with 1689 though - brought back the jollies after 30 years away from them. Wish I wasn't so whipped tired that day though. I coulda gone for MORE. Heh.
The D ran to/from Coney Island via Culver from 1954-1967. Prior to that it's southern terminal changed from Bway Lafayette, Hudson Terminal or 2nd Ave. As for 34th St. being a terminal for lines other than the BB, I remember hearing that the late night "F" also terminated here. The "express" tracks between W4th an 34th didn't even exist until 1967.
Ohhh, I nearly forgot it, yesterday December 16 is marked the V train's first anniversary. Few months ago in July, it was Q W train first anniversary. Two more weeks, it will be 2003, and then Manny B returns in the following. As the years gone by quicker, more surprises comes.
wasn't that suppose to be 2004?
Yes it is.He's obviously mistaken.
ok...thank you....and how's it been? haven't had the chance to kick it with you in awhile....[love9400],will be in NYC next week. how about we hook up for some railfaning?
I'll think about it.I already have planned a trip out to Long Island but I don't know when to do it.I'm waiting for a nice beautiful day and in the 40's to do it.But for some railfanning next week,anyday except Tuesday and Thrusday since I got some TV shows to watch at 8PM those days and I hate to miss them. Where in the subway do you have in mind for railfanning?
Sorry it took so long to get back to you,it's just work has been REAL ''crazy'',and doing what i do,you have to make sure all the LOOT and PAPER WORK is right at the end of the day,IT THROWS off your whole weekly reports.... so its all good... anyway thats up to you what we do.... holla at me and we'll make plans...
actually no, you two are mistaken
---
Two more weeks, it will be 2003, and then Manny B returns in the following
---
the following would be 2004
Yes, that is the way I undeerstood the statement.
Elias
I almost forgot too! buwahaha!! To hell with all the critics about my V train! Long live the V for it will be around for all eternity!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
huh?
-smirks- heh.You know me and how I feel about the V train,being obsessed with it an all.So I suppose acting a little wacky doesn't hurt.I love that V so much,I truly hope that 20 years from now or so,it's still around.I'm happy that some people are getting used to that train but I still have no sympathy for those who still hate it.
She's getting a bit power crazy. Don't worry; all female railfans are like that! They are foamers that actually foam at the mouth... :-P
Heh, most of the posters would hate you at the Rider Diaries, as most of them hate the V! Don't worry, I'm on your side. ;-)
Well V Train B47 Bus, lets put it this way. The only people is this planet who gives a danm about V Train is the MTA (for now), me, you and other V Train fans. Don't be surprise when TA have decided knot out the V later. By that there is nothing you and I and other V train lover can do about it.
Oh I can think of a million ways to make sure they keep the V around forever and ever. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Very complicated but now you can take that extra day off if you can find the right person.
Wow ... forward into the PAST ... used to be that way in 1970. As long as the TMO knew WHO was going to take the run beforehand, you could do that but both of you bought it if nobody showed.
I'm surprised that wasn't already allowed, provided both workers were qualified.
Somewhere between the time I left and now, they got anal. :)
Ive noticed over the years, that subway cars have some stickers that are unknown to me. Here is what I noticed:
A star located at the 3rd door panel on the left side of the car next to the fault light.
on the R142s and 143s there is a letter V next to the intercom. Does anyone know what these stickers mean, and if there is any more that I haven't mentioned, please let me know.
The star is were the crew can find the Brake Cut Out handel (BCO for short). The V on the R142-43 are for the Voltage Regulator is under the car. This is of no use to the crew, so I don't know why it's there.
Robert
How many of these people won't make it all the way?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021215/168/2vfda.html&e=7
Looks like NYCT during rush hour.
And this is supposed to be different from the LIRR?
yes Peter over there they do not bitch if they don't have at least 1 1/2 seat. only thing same with LIRR is even that railroad needs state subsidy to operate.
I think that's a picture of a 1 train this morning. See me waving from the third car?
I've heard of crush loads, but that is way beyond ridiculous. Heck, in any other part of the world (let alone Lexington Avenue at 8AM), that wouldn't even be tolerated.
I guess with the sensitive nature of the strike they removed certain features from the original, here it is :-)
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/crowd1.jpg
Clever! I had to do quite a bit of monkeying around to see it, though... Yahoo! didn't want to let me get to it since it wasn't on a page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah I know, they're screwy. I found the link wouldn't work but if you cut and pasted it, it would.
Once my alma matter gets their damn website fixed I can use some 'real' webspace :)
How could the Engineer/T/O see out the front????
They depend on the force. :)
It's a push pull unit and he's at the other end.
wayne
Maybe the person in the very front of the loco radios the engineer on channel 4.
cab signals, ato, and remote from the train in front of this one
No need; the bangladeshi's are already ahead of NYCT and have implemented ATO.
Shoe slipper in the throttle control?
And you guyz think I'm wacky. 'Pleeze watch the opening of the closing door thankyouverrry much. Next stop New Dehli..don't trip over the sacred cow. MOO.' Three of these guys can't bust off an inspection cap on a gearbox. For what I do for them they should get me certification as a 'magic carpet pilot.' CI Peter
Hey! Watch it with that moo. Want flies with that? :)
When enough people fall off the engine, he can see out the front!
Other than head car operation? I think I see the one guy wearing a sound powered phone.
Is that the 5:02 to Ronkonkoma?
No problem, they just grab onto the next guy's bedsheets or diaper.
Puts a new meaning to a customer request to be dropped off somewhere!
Gee... it doesn't look like that train is running on 130# rail!
Gee... I guess the operator just has to guess where the train, signals, and stations are.
Gee... What will those people do when they come to New York City, and start riding on the subways?
Elias
They'll learn how to play that old favorite midwest carnival game, "Whack-a-pole." :)
I thought it was a large group of youths surfing on the train.
After thinking about it, I've decided to return to Subtalk, but it's the only group I'm going to be on for the forseeable future.
If anybody's interested, I'll see what I can do about getting some pictures from the first service day of the Sheppard line up on the internet.
-Robert King
Welcome back, bro! Glad to see ya! :)
And a big wet welcome back for Mr. Carbodsky as well!
Eees Carbodsky Komaraden: 12.7 mm DaShenko dat dat dat dat dat.
Now all I have to do is keep myself clean, change out my railroad clothes everyday, ALWAYS wear the heavy leather gloves, shower every night, stay out of the dirt and pay Bloomys dentist cash. The transit dirt nearly took my life...two bouts of dental infections and penacillin applications. The public sees heroes in NYPD and NYFD...bitches about the subways...and never meets those who MAKES TRAINS GO. I'm not the only one to be sickened on the job from exposure and wouldn't wish it upon anyone.
Strike OVER....I will NOT ratify contract. Period. CI Peter
(The transit dirt nearly took my life...two bouts of dental infections and penacillin applications.)
I don't understand. What happened to you?
The filth and dirt from trainsets, especially the Redbirds which I do love to work on, made me ill. There is no other explanation...I have no exposure to anything anywhere else. During the summer, barn temperatures rise when crews run AC to make a cool place to rest and AC condensors raise ambient temperatures to unsafe levels, especially working undercar. When fall came, I was feeling better but had problems. My dentist with years of experience never understood my relation with dental problems and physical pain/illness but gave in after discovering the first dental infection...it went systemic. Cleared up, I had a second and had three root canals, two of which did not require anesthetics, the last had the smell of ten dead skunks
when drilled out. We do not know what we are exposed to on the job...it is part of the 'hazards.' When a Doctor gave me the latest vaccine for influenza at 207th yard, she suggested I get a Tetanus shot. Being burned/electrocuted/run over by a trainset can be avoided...the biggest hazard for Car Equipment Department personel is what cannot be seen or felt. If you do thorough inspections, you stick your nose into the dirtiest parts of trainset undercar. We had Z95 respiration filters but TA pulled them for safety considerations, leaving us with Z90 dust masks. So, I have learned...avoiding as much as I can without jeopardizing my employment and getting better.
TWU is mostly moot in these matters, only coming out to make a stink.
Sorry to hear about your tough year.
Funky things grow in steel dust, dust and other dirt - especially when it's kept moist. Flake it off and things can go airborne. Folks who live with mildew and mold on the loose can experience similar in their homes. As long as things remain intact and undisturbed, no problem. For those who disturb it though, there's the possibility of breathing it in. Miners have experienced similar problems too.
But of course, the people who do this every day in the land of TWU are overpaid. To SOME people. :(
Sorry to hear that, glad to have you vertical again. Now we mount turret on carbodsky and fill the air tank with Wodka. :)
"..pictures from the first service day of the Sheppard line..." I'd love to see those pictures. As an aside, my framed, translucent carcard Toronto subway map is now an historical artifact.
Which version of the subway map do you have?
-Robert King
Welcome back! And yes, we'd be delighted to see some Sheppard line pics :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good God Anon, where the hell have you been? You were getting to be like Gary Wengeroff and Brighton Express Bob. They're getting rarer on Subtalk that the goony bird. In fact, where have many of our old posters gone. Is there some more popular website I don't know about?
Still here, Fred... just that I have enough sense to keep my mouth shut when I don't have anything to say, unlike a few other posters lately. Been too busy either at Branford or working on another Branford project here at the house to do any railfanning and the last couple of weeks this board has been focused on strike talk so I really haven't had anything much to contribute.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well Anon, the strike talk is finally over, thank God. It was getting to be a real downer. I'm glad it all worked out. A strike would have been the last thing New Yorkers needed. I'm glad for Stef and the others who work for the TA. My reading on this was that the guys didn't want to strike but were determined to unless management gave them something tangible.
There was a one week period where I was quite prolific. I had posted 50 messages in a one week period which is a record for me on Sub Talk.
#3 West End Jeff
The map has no date. Yonge-University-Spadina terminals are Finch (Yonge) and Wilson (Spadina). Bloor-Danforth terminals are Islington and Warden. There is no reference to the Scarborough line.
That would be the 1978 map. 1980 brought the one stop Bloor Danforth extensions to Kipling and Kennedy, the Scarborough RT opened in 1985, and the one stop extension from Wilson to Downsview on the Spadina line opened in 1996. So, your map's been a collector's item for quite a while now...
I do dimly remember the next version of the map after yours, which had the Kipling and Kennedy extensions along with the Spadina line up to Wilson but with no Scarborough RT. Then, once the line opened, an event I remember being excited about, it was like a change took place overnight and all the maps were replaced with updated ones showing the RT.
-Robert King
You're back? Where were did you go?
Transit employees have gotten their new contract. Good, it seems like the salary increases they received were fair and, in light of the fact that it was often said employees were mainly looking for respect from management, if they feel they have achieved this then that is even better.
I have two problems with the current state. There is something wrong when transit employees are making comparable salaries to police officers and teachers, to name two. These are jobs which require higher education, and in my opinion, not to be demeaning, but a much greater intelligence level. I cannot possibly fathom salaries approaching 60K for bus and train operators performing duties that require a high school diploma. I'd like to hear what others think as to the comparably salaried professions of transit workers.
Secondly, it pains me to see the waste in the system. Simply put, there is no longer a need for booth clerks. Downsizing the ranks and employing the majority of these clerks as customer service reps is a much better idea, rather than relegating clerks to worthlessness in the booths while vending machines are capable to perform their duties, as they do in almost every other transit system.
The union has to realize that to a degree, their interests are harmful to that of our city and that of our transit system, as money funded to needless employees is money taken away from service increases and, indirectly, capital improvements.
This is such trash that I think Im the only one that's going to respond to this simply to say this is garbage...Yea lets see, Train operator, rush hours, repsonsible for 1000 passengers on his train..moving at 40mph...there are 1000s of examples of why they're pad what they're paid.
10 years ago I could understand that, but with all the timers and such now, is it really possible for a T/O to screw up very badly?
Even with all the new saftey implementations..it only takes one incident to prove all of it wrong.
Right...besides the paying customers, the T/O has to be alert to work crews that -- as has been pointed out in two recent tragic incidents -- are not always properly marked/flagged/indicated on the road to on-coming train traffic. It ain't as easy as those BVE and 'Trainmaster' programs make it out to be...
(gotta put the 'armchair T/O's' in proper perspective).
Ah ... so you got your Mojo working, eh? Didja find the Canarsie line in BVE yet? :)
Unca Kev, not yet...awaiting to download to a new system (a few weeks away now). I'll keep ya posted.
Heh. Once you get it going, I'll bet you'll be as scarce as Salaam. :)
Yeah, but when I do return I won't be using ANNOYING ALL CAPS or using !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to make a point...if you get my drift!!!! :)
I'll bet those are safety exclamation points, designed to provide traction in deep foam. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...lol..lol!!!
The work crews should ware a becon of sorts that communicates to the train crew where exactly they are.
The information could be transmitted over the regular communications channel or a special saftey channel.
On CBTC lines the becon could alert the oncoming trian to slow down
Maybe give them a beannie with a propeller on the top, so that it can lift them up over an oncoming train.
: )
10 years ago I could understand that, but with all the timers and such now, is it really possible for a T/O to screw up very badly?
UGH!!!! DO YOU RIDE THE TRAINS!?!?!?
One example: The "C" train at Hoyt. There are NO timers, only a posted speed restriction. Trains COULD STILL DO 30 OVER THAT SWITCH!!!!
Signal department has been dispatched to the scene. Thanks for banging it in. :)
"There is something wrong when transit employees are making comparable salaries to police officers and teachers, to name two."
Face it, NYC and NY State unions have had some success in getting their workers halfway decent working conditions, but they haven't really affected salary much. Salary is pretty much based on supply and demand. When NYC can't find teachers, it offers bonuses, even tough the contract doesn't require them.
Supply and demand puts transit pay roughly (not exactly) comparable with teachers and cops because if the MTA paid less, they wouldn't be able to fill the slots with competent people.
Supply and demand doesn't enter into it in this case. It's a monopoly, outside market economics.
"Supply and demand doesn't enter into it in this case. It's a monopoly, outside market economics"
The employer isn't a monopoly - there are other ways to earn a living in the NYC area. The labor supply isn't a monopoly for the same reason.
The result is that if NYCT doesn't pay enough, they will have lots of vacant positions and won't be able to run the trains. The only monopoly would be if the UTW could actually persuade NYCT to pay more than the going rate in return for labor peace. And I contend that's not true, or at least not to any significant degree.
One of the first things I learned when I worked in a union shop was not to compare anyone's job to anyone else's unless you've done both.
That holds true in the private sector as well.
I agree with you on the booth clerks. But at least they do something. Philadelphia's booth clerks aren't allowed to touch money.
Yeah....I remember going into the Philadelphia subway about 30 years ago, and being told by the booth clerk that I had to have exact fare! When I replied with an amazed "Really?", the clerk got indignant and asked "Yeah, did you ever hear of a robbery in the subway?" I just laughed at her, told her I was from New York, and asked her if she had ever heard of bulletproof glass.
I don't care what others think, and it's not because I'm a Transit Nut, you T/o's, B/o's C/r's deserve every nickel you are paid.
There is no way it cannot be called a responsible job with a lot decision making the whole day.
Chuck Greene
But my entire point is that these are jobs that are theoretically replaceable by computers. Some people seem unwilling to accept that.
"Some people seem unwilling to accept that"
Incuded are the customers?
Essentially, all transportation operators are paid well, because of the value of the equipment they operate. So that's the judgement of the marketplace.
I'm paid well because my TRAIN is expensive? I'm not sure I understand the logic in that one.
"I'm paid well because my TRAIN is expensive? I'm not sure I understand the logic in that one."
If you pay more you have a much better chance of finding people someone who are highly responsible and treat expensive equipment with the care it deserves. No guarantees, and of course there are a huge number of people working for $8 per hour who are highly responsible and some being paid $100 and more per hour who aren't responsible, but the probabilities work that way.
But my entire point is that these are jobs that are theoretically replaceable by computers.
This is true, but not that true.
Yes, a line *can* be built that will do this: ie BART, Metro etc.
But... NYCT is built with 1800s vintage structure and technology, and it really cannot be changed except in certain 'captive-runs' such as the (7) and the (L). IND routes have the best chance of upgrade, what with flying crossings and 1930s technology, but even this is really not in the cards. Too much traffic and interchange.
These lines you cite do not have expresses weaving in and out, converging and diverging routes and close and narrow ROWs.
Building the Second Avenue Subway will be cheaper and easier than upgrading present NYCT main-line subways... and will be done first.
Even so, that will NOT be a state of the art computerized line because they plan to merge its trains in and out with existing routes where such capibilities are not available.
So, I think that the NYCT has to plan more realistically, better signalling, perhaps computerized dispatch, signal, and enroute timing, but I just can't see it extending into train control.
Elias
But, in fact, the strategy current signalization program (in-cab signals) is to lead eventually to automated control.
[There is something wrong when transit employees are making comparable salaries to police officers and teachers, to name two.]
Correction: Most teachers earn LESS. That's why, when teachers were laid off in the 1970's, so many of them moved to Transit - and DIDN'T go back when teachers were needed again!!
BTW, as a reflection of the overall economy, most train and bus operators outearn most passengers.
Starting salary for NYC teachers is now 39K with max base pay being 79K, for roughly 9.5 months of work...so you're not really correct. I don't know what survey you undertook for your second assertion, but it seems very broad given the wide range of people who take mass transit.
[I don't know what survey you undertook for your second assertion....]
The Census Bureau obtains income data from the "long form" (mailed to about one in six households), then extrapolates it to include the "short form" respondents.
From the 1990 census, the city-wide AVERAGE wage was $9.55 per hour. I don't know the 2000 figure, but even after 12 years (and especially with the current economy) it can't have gone up much.
Average census wage is always much lower than what the typical full-time job pays. It takes in a lot of part-timers, part-year, etc.
Wait a minute. Isn't the whole point of the way the NY system works that the booth clerk can see the platform and call security? Otherwise you've got a fortune invested in roving guards.
This is only partially true. The clerk can only see the platform in a small minority of stations. I'm not advocating wiping out clerks, just reassigning the majority to duties outside the booth helping them use machines that work as well if not better than humans, while at the same time, their position outside the booth makes them an increasesd system of eyes and ears.
The station agent can always see the platform; if not directly, then by CCTV. The areas on the platform marked "Off Hours trains stop here" or "Off Hours waiting area" are those visible or under surveillance.
That doesn't help much if I'm boarding at a station with the booth at one end and exiting at a station with a booth at the other -- nobody's watching me as I leave the station. I might even have to walk past a locked part-time booth that would be available as an exit if it were replaced with a row of HEETs.
If we're going to rely on CCTV, then the person watching the monitors need not be physically in the station. I'd certainly feel more secure under the watch of someone sitting in an office in Brooklyn whose sole responsibility is to watch the monitors covering two or three stations and to summon help when necessary than I do waiting for a train now.
I do have to admit, if there were a concerted effort to organize security around roving guards and full camera coverage (more interesting for the guards to have handheld monitors than to sit in an office), then we might even be able to open up some more of the late night portals.
You guys come up with the most insane things ever. Downsize transit? That's what I like to call 'creative thinking'.
I've already posted why transit workers have jobs that merit their pay here. Now, I'd like to explain another simple economic factor that no one can answer yet.
At ACME Co., they decide they can cut costs by laying off 10,000 workers and replacing them with computers. So they do just that. In fact, they cut overall costs by 20%. They are hailed as a model for efficiency. Soon, everyone is doing the same. Unemployment skyrockets with everyone being laid-off. And, the companies start doing bad, because many fewer products are purchsed. So, they downsize their operations. Soon, the economy is in full blown depression.
I know this is hard to believe, but there's a good reason why unions exist.... and why people aren't replaced by computers.
(At ACME Co., they decide they can cut costs by laying off 10,000 workers and replacing them with computers. So they do just that. In fact, they cut overall costs by 20%. They are hailed as a model for efficiency. Soon, everyone is doing the same. Unemployment skyrockets with everyone being laid-off. And, the companies start doing bad, because many fewer products are purchsed. So, they downsize their operations. Soon, the economy is in full blown depression.)
Congratulations, you have independently arrived at the central thesis of Marxism, the central "contradiction" that will lead to the DOOOM of capitalism. It is in every company's individual interest to cut their workers' real pay, right down to the level of subsistence, but then who do they have to sell their products to? Workers! So every company has an incentive to cut its own workers' pay, but must hope that other companies' workers will earn more.
Capitalism is very inventive. Here in the U.S. we have solved the contradiction between lower inflation adjusted pay for workers and higher spending by consumers (the same people) by having consumers (and governments) go deeper and deeper into debt. Not only did that provide demand for rising employment in the U.S., but it seems to be supporting the economy of the entire world.
At least so far. Here is a thought to consider as you wonder if stocks have hit bottom -- just because Marx's solutions (and/or those of his followers) were awful doesn't mean that his analysis of the problem was all wrong.
Well put. It is also not widely know that Marx called for capitalism as an evolutionary state society needed to pass trough before communism (actaully revolutionary socialism then communism, the USSR was not really communist). The USSR went right from monarcy to revolutionary socialism. They skipped a step. But if you read his works, he said capitalism would evolve into monopolistic capitalism (where are just about at now) then the evolution would continue.
HE WAS NOT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alother theory is that ACME is then able to lower prices to increase its compeditive leverage, comsumers then need to spend less money on food and so spend their $ elsewhere thus creating more jobs. This time the jobs are useful, not redundant. BTW those computers ain't free either. They represent a significant capital investment that is probably more expensive than paying the workers for the short run. The money that ACME pays for the computers goes into the paychecks of workers somewhere else who then demand goods. Goods that are now cheaper thanks to ACME's capital investment.
The end result is that ACME has put capital $ into the market and lowered prices for consumers. The average comsumer's dollar now goes farther so they can buy more goods and now new jobs are needed to make and distribute those goods.
The MTA should invest in things like CCTV OPTO that increase productivity and decrease cost.
"The MTA should invest in things like CCTV OPTO that increase productivity and decrease cost."
The obove OPTO inpimenteation also helps train operators because they no longer need to stick thier head out onto the platform and deal with the public.
It's nice to dream, but if ACME Co. cuts jobs, and everyone else follows suit, there will be NO NEW JOBS!!!! Contrary to what you believe, if a worker is laid-off, he does not get extra cash.
The MTA should invest in things like CCTV OPTO that increase productivity and decrease cost.
CCTV is already in place at some stations for C/R's. Why doesn't it just become policy to just use CCTV? Rider safety. This is something that every subtalker seems to ignore.
Except that when you lay off workers on account of automation, there are other jobs that replace the now obsolete ones.
Do you think that we should go back to having one conductor per car? After all, laying off all of those conductors led to massive unemployment and a prolonged depression, especially since the population of the city, the country and the world has increased since then.
That’s the theory. However, I’ve been saying for several years now that the problem here is that the new jobs require different skills and a lot of people are unwilling to adapt and change. This has the result that the jobs and the people don’t match.
Sadly, I see the situation getting worse rather than better.
John
IMHO, the idea of redeploying token booth clerks (at least some of them) as customer service agents has merit. I also agree that teachers and policemen should be paid more than transit workers, but I would not suggest that transit workers are overpaid. We rely on these people to get LOTS of us where we're going safely, they do go through considerable specialized training, and their working conditions aren't exactly cushy. If some transit workers are making as much as teachers and/or policemen, I would suggest that it is because the latter are not paid enough.
Hey all, I just rode the L out to Canarsie from Union Square and I got some questions that I was wondering if you could help answer:
1)What are those tracks next to the L near the Wilson Ave station?
2)Around Bway Jctn, I know that they are reconfiguring the el structures around there, but I can see that there is a lot of old structure that rises after atlantic (going towards sutter) right before sutter and goes towards somewhere, but I'm not sure where....
3)from Bway Jctn until past New Lots, there is more track next to the L (below the L?) that looks like it used to connect to the L at the north end of either New Lots or E105, I forgot which....
4) On the Manahttan bound J platform towards the front, there is a blocked off staircase going down....
thanks,
Jeff
1) New York & Atlantic (NY Connecting RR) Bay Ridge branch, used for freight.
2) That is the last remnant of the Fulton Street EL's Pitkin Avenue line. It went east on Pitkin to Euclid, then north to Liberty, then east to Grant, and connected to the current "A" line at 78th & Liberty
3) Same as 1), the line parallels the "L" until Linden Boulevard, where it diverges. There is a connection to Linden Shops just outisde Sutter Avenue .
4) The "J" had a west exit at Eastern Parkway, it's no longer in use, used for storage space and no access to the street.
wayne
Hey all, I just rode the L out to Canarsie from Union Square and I got some questions that I was wondering if you could help answer:
1)What are those tracks next to the L near the Wilson Ave station?
That's the old LIRR Bay Ridge Line, now used by the New York and Atlantic for freight. In it's heyday it was electrified with catenary, and was originally build for four tracks. There was even passenger service on the line that I believe ended in the 20's.
2)Around Bway Jctn, I know that they are reconfiguring the el structures around there, but I can see that there is a lot of old structure that rises after atlantic (going towards sutter) right before sutter and goes towards somewhere, but I'm not sure where....
Atlantic Ave used to be a real "swinging" place back in the day. Much of the unused infastructure became obsolete when they built the Fulton Subway, and abandoned the old BMT Fulton El there. After Atlantic the line used to break off and go onto the Fulton EL. At Atlantic you had Fulton El service, the 14th Street-Canarsie Line service the way it's run today, and you also had a service that ran from Canarsie, through Atlantic, then switched over to the Broadway El (J Line) and ran to Canal Street/Nassau.
3)from Bway Jctn until past New Lots, there is more track next to the L (below the L?) that looks like it used to connect to the L at the north end of either New Lots or E105, I forgot which....
That is again the LIRR/NYA Bay Ridge Freight Line.
4) On the Manahttan bound J platform towards the front, there is a blocked off staircase going down....
That is just an abandoned mezzanine/fare control area, just like many stations have/had.
That's the old LIRR Bay Ridge Line, now used by the New York and Atlantic for freight. In it's heyday it was electrified with catenary, and was originally build for four tracks. There was even passenger service on the line that I believe ended in the 20's.
Read about it HERE
Now that Local 100 has a tentative contract will they still be as vocal as they were in opposition to the upcoming fare increase in April?
I'll bet they won't.
Nope.
Why the hell would they care? More possibility for money in the future for them, and all their members have a free ride on NYCT, nothing to complain about as far as I can see.
Probably not. No reason why they (or anyone else) should.
As a fare-payer myself, seven years is a long time between increases. Had Pataki been more frank with the public prior to the election, the new fares probably would have been implemented already.
Those who really cannot afford such increases should receive some other kind of assistance, enabling them to do so.
The Fare should be Increased to a minimum of $2.50 per ride.
1)Keep the Unlimited ride cards in place but increase the cost of these cards proportionatly.
2) Have a Federal Incom tax break for people who use public transportation vs. use of private vehicle to commute to work. A seperate line item adjustment to Income on the 1040, 1040A and the 1040EZ is all it would take. I would not be in favor of an itemized deduction on Schedule A that would only benefit those who file a 1040 and itemize.(Not all employers in NYC or the metro area participate in Transit check...so this would be fair treatment for those who must pay out of their own pocket.)
3) If people don't pay taxes or refuse to file a Federal Income Tax return....no tax deduction. In the long run this benefit all the residents of the NYC Metro area. A specific percentage of the Funds received from this fare increase should be "Restricted" by Law by placing the revenue directly in "TRUST" with and independent and ethical Investment Bank. This institution would be accountable to the people on how funds were disbured each year. These Special Funds should be used as collateral for future Bond Issues and specifically "earmarked" for "Maintaining the current Infrastructure of the NYC Transit system."
5)Any surplus funds recieved should not be used to expand the system nor could they be loaned to fund any project other that "Beefing Up" the maintenace of the existing system.
2) Have a Federal Incom tax break for people who use public transportation vs. use of private vehicle to commute to work. A seperate line item adjustment to Income on the 1040, 1040A and the 1040EZ is all it would take. I would not be in favor of an itemized deduction on Schedule A that would only benefit those who file a 1040 and itemize.(Not all employers in NYC or the metro area participate in Transit check...so this would be fair treatment for those who must pay out of their own pocket.)
Not a bad idea, but it could be difficult for people to substantiate the deduction.
Stop all this socialism.
The biggest problem at the MTA is that they constinue to operate thier system as if it were in the rock ages.
There are plenty of cost savings that could be implimeted to keep the fare at a reasonable rate. -one S/A per station - cutting most of the antiquated adminstrative staff -Advanced OPTO - etc.....
A $2.50 fare will drive people away from mass transit and not adress the many proble at the MTA that is a bloated workforce and antiquated operting proceedures. It would result in nearly a $500 a year tax increse for the average commuter.
People who dirve already pay an unfair amount of taxes inorder to drive.
$0.50 per gallon
3.50 mta surcharges on MTA owned bridges
If Pataki had been more frank with the public, we would have had a new governor who could count his balls and come up with the same number twice. As it IS, Paturkey did NOT win the election with 50% or more of the vote. And the public never remembers when they get lied to and then hosed on top of it. They vote for the boobs AGAIN. :(
i hope they do, cause i work for Metro North and i dont feel like paying more money to get on the subway. i also feel kinda stupid wearing MTA I.D and a MTA orange vest and PAYING to get on the subway.
I didn't know only transit workers got free transit. I also assumed they could ride the commuter railways for free as well.
I think $1.50 (with discounts) is pretty cheap and it should be raised to $2.00 (with bigger discounts for regulatr commuters) to pay both for the new union contract and to avoid deferred maintainence and to continue with the Capital Program)
I think LIRR and MN are also due some fare increases (just the cost of living is about 15% since the last increase in 1995, I believe.
>>> will they still be as vocal as they were in opposition to the upcoming fare increase in April? <<<
When did the TWU oppose the fare increase? Are you sure you are not thinking of the straphangers? It would be quite inappropriate for the TWU to oppose fare increases, because pricing is a traditional management prerogative which the union should not interfere with.
Tom
The TWU joined with Straphangers' to rally the public against the fare increase, prior to the 2002 elections.
David
Just like they opposed the dime fare way back when.
I noticed our resident Thorn-in-the-Side -- aka Salaaam Allah -- has been AWOL for a good while here....shhhhh! Maybe he's a part of Forgotten LA now! LOL! :)
Anyone want to email him and see if he's OK? I don't really want to give him my addy. His address is asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Maybe one of his 'buddies' like avid, heypaul, or Sea Beach Fred can rattle his cage? :)
Aw come on Doug, I don't rattle any cages, do I? Besides, two things to keep in mind. One, heypaul doesn't post here anymore, much to my chagrin since I always enjoyed his posts. He, Brighton Express Bob and I met in October and we hit it off real well. Besides, heypaul wasn't at odds with Salaam as far as I know. They cage rattler you want is subwaysurf. He was always on Salaam's case. Probably the guy is just taking a little vacation from Subtalk to get regenerated for the coming year.
Ya know what? I have e-mailed him, he has my e-mail address, and he is a perfect gentleman when communicating through e-mail.
We were supposed to get together in downtown LA for lunch a few weeks ago, but it turned out to be a nasty weather day and I didn't feel like dealing with it.
So make a hotmail email address, use it to email him, then once he writes back, never use the email address again.
I hate to break it to you, but your email addy is in each post you make (it's on the link of your name). So if he wanted to, he could see it.
EYE FOR ONE HAVE N-O-T MISSED HIS POSTS TO THIS BOARD !!!!!!
EYE EVEN HAVE NOT NOTICED THAT HE WAS MISSING ... WOW, GREAT, NICE ???
Mr. T what's with ALL THE CAPS!? Are YOU taking over in Salaam's absence? Hope not!!! LOL!
Hey, what about Ronnie? I miss him too. :(
Who's Ronnie? Ron from Bayside?
Yes, him. That's my nickname! You couldn't make the connection? ;)
Maybe he's on strike.
You gotta have proff.
Maybe with all the racist/religious bulls**t of a few weeks ago, he decided that he can get along fine without us.
Maybe he got stuck in 76th st station after an MTA worker let him in there, cause he had the Vest Hard Hat and so on.
[Ducks flying fruit, runs]
That would explain the shovel marks on the bottom of the blocks and the fresh mortar it would, it would ... ah ah ah ... :)
I hear Joe Bruno is looking for you. I think he wants you to be his legislative assistant. How about it?
Bust'em if ya got'em I s'pose ... I never thought much of Senator Shakedown, but since Trent Loot is about to be looking for a job, it's obvious Bruno likes the boy and could use the help. As Governor Keane used to say about Joisey, those two would be "puhfect together" ... I won't stand in the way of love. :)
what nobody misses the Fred and Bob Show?
Are you kidding?:)
You really have to half wonder whether or not Salaam has finally gone to far with the photography and landed himself in real trouble with the authorities... I really do hope that isn't the case but it is possible, especially in this day and age.
-Robert King
That thought HAD crossed my mind...particularly since another SubTalker (whom I spoke to earlier tonight) suggested just that same scenerio.
Oh I don't know ... I've seen some flying bird photos from another SubTalker recently that scared me.
I haven't seen Boston T Party for a while, for example. Who else is AWOL? What happened to all the old names?
AEM7
Apparently RoninBayside is in the process of moving...also missing -- but perhaps of his own choosing -- is QTrainDash7.
There might be others, but handles escapes me at the moment.
Qtraindash7 was posting regularly on BusTalk till about a week ago!
Maybe he waiting to make a grand entrance back here.
OK, here's some names from the past:NYC Transit AKA BMT LinesChao-Hwa ChenThe Transit Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46Josh Hilletc,etc,etc I also remember a guy long ago who wrote everything in the 3rd person. And how about the guy, I think his name was something Lee whose posts were a bunch of questions, as if this board was an official question & answer board.
I don't think Chao-Hwa was ever a very frequent poster. He still posts on occasion, I think.
Josh Hill still posts to nyc.transit.
The 3rd person guy is BLX over on BusTalk.
The questioner is Busfan.
Chaohua was a frequent poster for a while, but not recently. He still posts occaisionally on other boards.
He also was on a SubTalk "Field Trip"
I saw Boston T Party last week, in person, in uniform, on his MBTA Blue Line train. He's just fine, but very busy. We talked a bit about Seashore, where he too is an active volunteer.
Haven't hear from JohnS a.k.a. " Sparky " as well. Perhaps MIA upstate?
Paul
I believe so... he's scheduled at Branford on Thursday (tomorrow) and again Saturday. Last email I got from him was on Sunday or Monday, IIRC (not at home right now so I can't check).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey guys,
We is around, been doing the "Santa on the Trolley" at Branford on
Saturdays, plus some weekdays. Due to the way the cards were dealt
to both employable persons in this household, being an non-exempt
of State Authority, retired, but not by choice and the current
resident income comes from a State Authority non-exempt. Also over
the years, when we were employed, most were non~unionized jobs, so
instead of spitting rhetoric, I just glace quickly at the posts,
which where not labor related.
But we will be AWL, starting Sunday in Ulster County, so we wish
all on the board Seasons Greetings, Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas,
Felis Navidas, Happy Kwanza. Will return about the 6th
of January in 03. Paul thanks for the query neighbor for now???
Anon_e_mous, the formal update was written on Sunday & posted Monday.
You should have received two supplements also. >G<
:-) Sparky
Good to hear from Sparky. Haven't seen you around the neighborhood lately.
Right back at you. All the best to you and your family as well.
Paul
Sparky, Been trying to send you a e-mail Christmas card, including a photo of your favorite youngster with Santa ;-)
Been having trouble with several AOL accounts ...
Anyhow, Merry Christmas if I don't get through to you & Lucille !
Todd,
Have you seen Gerry O'Reagan recently? He hasn't posted here in quite sometime now. I wonder if his name got deleted during the long subtalk haitus, since he probably had less than 25 posts per month. Hopefully he didn't get insulted if he found out his handle didn't work; all he has to do is sign up again. -Nick
This morning NY1 had very nice pics of what was once the north shore extension of the SIRT and that there will be a new study to see if bringing back some sort of transit along the closed line would benefit Mariner's Harbor and other areas along the line. I also saw a small piece mentioned in this past NYTIMES in the CITY section of the paper.
It's the top story on the SI section of their site.
http://www.ny1.com/Boroughs/staten_island.html
meanwhile, freight over AK and into howland hook is progressing along. i forget the date, but it's suppose to start up around 2004.
I think the Hudson/Bergen Light rail connection via the Bayonne bridge is the best option, it provides more access to and from Staten Island. And the lower construction/operating cost of the Light rail compared to the heavier transit rail is a big factor.
I prefer heavy rail. It cost a LOT of dough and takes up too much space to separate transit from a mainline railroad. The cut is only two tracks wide and freight will not be thrilled with single track operation here.
Except that there is no freight, and there is no real potential (meaning no potential customers) for freight service in the corridor. Light rail, and an extension to the HBLR would be preferable. At that point, you convert the Tottenville line to light rail as well.
-Hank
There IS the through tunnel plan...it may be a pipe dream, but let's not give them the excuse of a light rail to block it. Besides, the railroad is already signaled for commuter rail and they cost about the same per car to operate. Why concentrate the money on the non-broken part of the system when you can just use the infrastructure to go to Newark or Manhattan. Where will those buses go when the Gowanus is being rebuilt? They all can't fit through Jersey.
Hmmmm, same thing happened in CT.
They got the State to foot the bill for track, etc. between Middletown & Hartford. T-H-E-N they went out to see if there were any customers, nope none there.
Well maybe they'll turn it into a light rail line ?
Light rail may be a little more costly. Remember, SIRT lines were designed similar to BMT operations. To convert to light rail means building new plats, newer signal system, and of course, new rail cars. Also, the Port Authority would not want such service operating over the Bayonne Bridge. Cost more money, and there is not enough space for trains on the span. If the line ran as it was before 1953, we have us a successful service. Once the R160 arrives on TA property, some R44's can be transfered to SIR for the extra service. Maybe even the South Beach line can be rebuilt, but that's pushing it. The ROW barely exists anymore. We can also expand service to Travis and maybe extend to serve the Staten Island Mall.
Personally, I can't stand buses. I'm not crazy about Staten Island either because of lack of rail service and access. If this happens, I'll reconsider my feelings about Staten Island.
There is room for a Light rail (or trolly) as originally intended when the Bayonne bridge was being built, on the outer parts of the roadway. Hard to explain but when you drive across you can see the "gap" between the outer edge of the roadway and the actual span, no need to loose any lanes.
The Bayonne Bridge had space allotted for trolley service when it was built. The deck superstructure on the bridge itself is wider, but the approaches would require expansion. The approaches are also rather steep, which prevents any kind of non-mu service.
-Hank
"Maybe even the South Beach line can be rebuilt, but that's pushing it. The ROW barely exists anymore."
The ROW is almost built upon with homes. Also part of the ROW was filled in. The Bouth Beach Line is gone forever.
Bill "Newkirk"
This time it is part two of working our way across town.
If you survived the first part of this trip, part two may bring you to your knees. I will barrage you with information in the second leg of this journey. It may put you into overload and shut all of your thought processing systems down altogether. Should this occur, I will then have you under my complete and total control.
Before we dive into this part of the trip a correction; the Santa Fe had two tracks not one between Bridgeport and 21st Street no one. There was only one track left between these two points when I started at the CCP, and it was not in service at that time, just lying there dormant.
It has been written that the average speed of a train working its way across Chicago is just 7 MPH. The numerous junctions and crossings at grade play out as a major culprit of the delays. As you have observed from part one of our little journey we have indeed proven this theory. The first portion of this trip took one hour, fifty-five minutes to go about six miles. This equates to just better than 3 miles per hour, not exactly approaching mach one here or any type of land speed records.
This time we will look at some of the other factors in the equation that make getting across town more than just a job, but an adventure.
When we left you all last time, we had just stopped at 21st Street. This is the crossing of Norfolk Southern’s former Conrail Chicago Line and Amtrak’s Chicago Terminal. At 21st, the ownership changes from one to the other. Conrail sold their interest in Chicago Union Station and the associated trackage to Amtrak about 1980. All trackage north (compass) or west (timetable) of 21st Street, called Alton Junction on Conrail went to Amtrak with Conrail keeping perpetual trackage rights.
The 21st Street name is also a misnomer as the real 21st Street is a bit south of here. 18th Street is actually closer. Another railroad used to cross and connect here besides CNIC and Conrail and their predecessors. The Chicago & Western Indiana came in parallel to and just west of the Chicago Line. It made a right turn and crossed the other two railroads at 21st Street. The Santa Fe connected to the CWI using it to reach Dearborn Station. The Chicago & Eastern Illinois, Monon, Wabash, Erie Lackawanna and Grand Trunk Western all used the CWI to access Dearborn Station. The CWI operated a fleet of commuter trains called "dummies" in and out of Dearborn and through 21st Street as well. With all of this traffic, 21st still wasn’t the busiest interlocking in the Chicago Terminal, though it was damn close.
With all the railroads involved here, 21st Street also carried several different names depending upon which railroad you were operating. As I mentioned, Alton Jct. was used on Conrail and its predecessors. This name comes from the GM&O predecessor Chicago & Alton, the Alton Route. As you recall from part one, I mentioned the very northern terminus of the GM&O proper was 21st Street where it connected to the former Pennsylvania Railroad for the trip downtown to Union Station.
Now in its day the GM&O called 21st Street Fort Wayne. This comes from Conrail predecessor Pennsylvania. Through their subsidiary Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railroad, they built what eventually became the Chicago Line. In fact, this name carried forward into the ICG and was shown as such in the timetables well into the 80’s. Both the IC and CWI called this place 21st Street. Gee, what’s in a name here?
Just east of the crossing is a wye on the southeast quadrant that connects the Chicago Line with the Freeport Sub. There also used to be a set of crossovers between the main tracks here that were removed last year. When I inquired as to why they were removed the answer I was given was "We don’t need them anymore." We don’t huh? Just several days prior to their being removed, we used those very crossovers to go from track two over to track one. The rail was still shiny when it came out.
Between the two crossings of 21st and 16th Streets, we take some huge delays owing to the Amtrak, Metra, NS and UP trains operating on the Chicago Line and the Metra trains operating on the Rock Island District. There are morning and afternoon rush curfews in which no trains on the CNIC are allowed to cross either of the of the lines during these periods. Each curfew is over one hour and a half. And yes, we have been stuck here on numerous occasions.
It is now 0915 and after watching two inbound Amtrak trains come across, we get the signal and proceed east with only a ten minute delay. The best signal we can get here at 21st going east is a restricting, in this case displayed as lunar. For those unfamiliar with the concept of lunar, it is sort of a silvery colored light. I guess it looks like the moon hence then name. From this point we begin a maximum speed of 10 MPH.
Just east of 21st is ABS W2.6. This signal governs the approach to 16th Street, the crossing with the Metra Rock Island District. We have an approach (yellow) signal displayed at W2.6. This means I must proceed prepared to stop before passing the next signal. As recently as last year, it used to be that when we had the line up at 16th Street, we would get a clear (green) signal at W2.6. For whatever reasons, it no longer displays a clear signal under these circumstances. It has been reported many times but……
As we approach W2.6 we are dropping down a bit of a descending grade and start into a gentle right hand curve. After we pass the signal we turn to the left. To our left along the right of way is now a park. This is built on what was the CWI right of way. To our right is a cluster of apartment buildings and condominiums at the very northern edge of Chinatown. The Santa Fe coach yard and passenger train servicing facilities were located here until the late 1970’s or very early 80’s when Amtrak consolidated their Chicago mechanical facilities into a new complex along their Chicago Terminal trackage between 12th and 16th Streets. To the east of the condos is vacant land with a few telltale signs of the former facility located there.
We cross a little road that accesses the park, duck under the 18th Street overhead and begin a short steep climb to 16th Street. We also now begin to swing back to the right as well. The signals at 16th are on a bridge that spans both tracks. It sits strategically behind the 18th Street overhead as any good signal should. This makes it just that much more difficult to see. Now being that we had an approach at W2.6, we need to be prepared to stop at 16th Street. Should the signal at 16th be displaying a stop indication (red without a number plate), I have to stop before passing. Should I not get stopped, it means the loss of my certification. Should I get too far past it, the results could be a wreck.
I have learned how to spot this signal in advance without having to be prepared to stop. There are a couple of spots where it is briefly visible long before I get past the 18th Street overhead. Now should it not be readily visible owing to bright sunlight, snow, heavy rain or fog, I am creeping up to it. Having a big train, particularly like the one today that has 51 empties in the head 90 cars and the very rear 24 cars as loads, particular care must be taken to keep the train in one piece. Keeping the slack action to a minimum is also very important as the excessive action can and does cause derailments. There have been several through here but fortunately for me; I have been party to none of them.
This day I could see the approach signal displayed at 16th Street far enough in advance that I could keep rolling without having to use anything more than throttle modulation to control my speed and get through here.
16th Street was known as Clark Street on the IC for years and years. Metra and prior to them, the Rock Island and the New York Central and their Penn Central successor which shared this trackage with the Rock until 1972, called it 16th Street. There are actually two crossings here, the Metra Rock Island District and just west of it the connection between the Rock and the St. Charles Air Line.
The best signal we can get here is at 16th is an approach (yellow). There is a signal just east of the crossing where Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) begins. The signal system here is set up in such a way (or so they tell me) that if the CTC entrance signal is not lined up, you cannot get the approach signal at 16th.
We are now climbing and swinging hard right. In between the diamonds and the CTC entrance signal is the connection from the St. Charles Air Line. The Air Line connects the Freeport Sub to the BNSF’s former BN line at Union Avenue and to UP’s Global One, the former Chicago & Northwestern Wood Street Yard. Amtrak uses the Air Line between Union Ave and 16th as part of their journey between Union Station and the CNIC.
In my Wisconsin Central days, I used to operate across the Air Line. For quite some time I worked the run that operated between Fond du Lac and the IC at Markham. We used to come through Global One and used the Air Line as a part of our route. The turnouts where the Air Line and Freeport Sub connect have very tight radius. While I was fortunate enough to never have it happen, there were many derailments here involving WC trains. The speed across the Air Line is 10 MPH.
As we approach the CTC entrance signal, it is partially obscured by the overgrowth of brush and trees. At night is not as difficult because the signal does stand out a bit in the dark. In daylight in can be more difficult. In the late fall and winter seasons the trees have shed their leaves and the signal is a little more visible. As we pass this signal the track levels out a bit but now starts to curve to the left and then back to the right before remaining tangent for about a quarter mile or so. We are now passing various grossly overpriced town homes, condos and lofts, many of which abut the right of way.
With all the curves through here and the bind of them against the flanges of the wheels, there is a considerable amount of whining and squealing coming from the trains as they pass through this area. With the buildings closed up so tightly against the right of way, there is a considerable amount of reverberation making the noise all that much louder. Add to this the scream of the engines working the tonnage against this rolling resistance and the grades, the sounds of flat spots on wheels pounding the rails and a few joints where the rails meet each other and you have quite the formula for noise. I have no clue as to why anybody would pay so much to live here. We are talking about studios that start at $100,000 and climb up well over half a million bucks. All that cash for all that noise. And they are still building these places stuffing them anywhere there is vacant land next to the right of way.
I’m sure the big press release in 1997 announcing that we were moving out of here had a great deal to do with the mad dash to build everywhere around the right of way. I’m sure the management firms marketing these developments are telling everybody the railroad will be gone shortly. Wait until these people find out this railroad is not going away anytime soon. Although I think a few have discovered this fact as several for sale signs have appeared in front of some of these places. Gee, I hope it is not because we are being bad neighbors.
We cross above several well known Chicago Streets including State Street, that great street. At Indiana Avenue milepost W1.2 was once South Wye Junction. This was where the trains off the Iowa Division used to turnout and head north toward Central Station or Congress Street Yard. The junction was removed sometime before I began at the CCP in 1986, but the name remained at this spot for many years after. It was still alive as recently as the latter 1980’s. It is also at this point the mileposts change. The Chicago Sub mileage ends and Freeport Sub mileage begins. Chicago Sub mileage ends at 2.2 and Freeport begins with W1.2.
Just east of the junction we then make a hard, right hand turn. As we approach this curve, Metra’s 18th Street MU Shed where they perform service on the electric Highliner cars comes into view. Soldier Field, the home of those hapless and pathetic Chicago Bears (I am an Indianapolis Colts fan) is just beyond the shed separated only by Electric District tracks 3 and 4 and Lake Shore Drive. Lake Michigan itself is just beyond Soldier Field and can also be seen. We are now dropping down again as we make the curve. About halfway into the curve is ABS 1225 displaying a clear (green over red) signal. This signal was moved north several hundred feet to its present location last year as part of a project to build a bridge under the railroad between the 18th Street bridge and McCormick Place. The number on this signal represents two distinct markers. The 1 indicates this is track 1 and the 225 indicates 2.25 miles from what would be the end of the line in downtown Chicago at the corner of Michigan Avenue and Randolph Streets if the line went straight into the city from here. The signal adjacent on track two is numbered 2225.
Just south of signal 1225 we once again pass under a portion of 18th Street, only this time in the manner of a pedestrian bridge. We duck under the bridge and begin to climb again up to the north edge of McCormick Place West, the giant exhibition center. Between the bridge and McCormick is the previous location of signal 1225.
McCormick Place West was built in two phases in the mid-80’s and early 90’s. During a portion of its construction, track two of the Chicago Sub was removed from service. To accommodate the trains through here on track one in both directions, remote controlled crossovers were built and placed into service at 18th Street and 23rd Street. They have both since been removed and track two returned to service. While single tracking through here was the method of operation, northbound trains often took quite the beating in delays to allow for the passage of higher priority southbound trains like P51 the ICG’s hot intermodal train out of IMX as well as Amtrak 391 and 59.
At the north end of the tunnel we use to pass under this giant edifice, the four main tracks of Metra’s Electric District emerges underneath us in a northeast/southwest curving configuration. This line then straightens up and begins to parallel us from this point all the way to Steunkel, milepost 31.6 where it ends . Once inside the McCormick Place tunnel the track begins to drop down back to what would be considered ground level.
The area to the east of the main tracks here was home to the Illinois Central 27th Street Yard. This facility was the servicing facilities for their inter-city passenger trains. The passenger car and locomotive fleet were serviced here. When Amtrak was created in 1971 this facility became redundant and was eventually closed. Over a period of time, much of the property affiliated with inter-city passenger operations was sold off to developers. Air rights over the railroad in several locations were also sold for development as well. This was how McCormick Place West was able to be constructed over the railroad.
Located straight north of here at Roosevelt Road (12th Street) was Central Station, the Chicago home of IC’s passenger terminal as well the IC’s operating headquarters. The operations were eventually moved out of this building; it was torn down and like so much other downtown real estate the IC owned, sold for other development.
An interesting fact about the Chicago and Freeport Subs in the McCormick Place area, it has been renamed several times since 1997. For many years the portion of the Chicago Sub used to extend up to milepost 2.2. From here it became the St. Charles Air Line. At Clark Street the Air Line veered of to the right as I mentioned previously. The line that went straight (didn’t make the turnout to be more correct as everything is winding and bending) became the Freeport District. The Freeport District extended its namesake city ending at Wallace Yard there where the main track then became the Dubuque District.
The first change was made when the Iowa Division from just west of the Belt crossing all the way out to Council Bluffs, IA was spun off to become the Chicago Central & Pacific in late 1986. With this sale the trackage between the Belt Crossing and South Wye junction was renamed the Bridgeport District. The next change occurred in the late 1990’s and had the Chicago District being extended from milepost 2.2 up to Bridgeport. The most recent changes came after the merger with CN and the issuance of the first CNIC timetable. All the lines known as districts in IC and ICG days became subdivisions. The Bridgeport District was eliminated and the Freeport Sub was extended to Bridgeport. The Chicago Sub was extended north from 2.2 up to Bridgeport. Even though it was generally an east-west configuration according to the compass, we were timetable north and south.
This created confusion as the track designations were changed to correspond to the change of direction. The Bridgeport District was an east-west route and the Chicago District a north south route. Generally railroads call the so-called westbound track in current of direction double track territory track one. The eastbound would be track two. In a north and south configuration track one would be the southbound and track two the northbound. Track two on what was now the Chicago Sub was then extended by proclamation as it were; to Bridgeport replacing what was track one of the Bridgeport District. Track two on the Bridgeport became track one of the Chicago Sub. Got that? These are the things that try a person’s sanity. By the time I got comfortable with this change, there was yet more change.
Lets everybody pause for a moment, place an index finger on your lips, making a rapid motion up and down on them and say blee-blee-blee-blee-blee-blee-blee.
It was decided by the powers that be that we needed to change all this change. Why leave well enough alone? By proclamation the Chicago Sub was shortened by making Clark Street its northern terminus. The Freeport Sub was extended east to Clark Street. Simultaneously, Clark Street was renamed 16th Street. What now happens is that you proceed eastward from Freeport two to southward on Chicago one when you cross 16th Street. I have become comfortable with this change, so it is very likely it will all be changed again soon.
Reasoning like this is why nuthouses everywhere are full of people whose little trains have gone chugging down the tracks of life. Or why some people just go postal and came in one day and shoot up the place. Probably explains too, why railroad rulebooks prohibit employees whose duties do not require them from possessing firearms on the property. They are afraid we would seek out those in charge who create such confusion and send them into railroad hell where they belong a lot sooner than they were planning to go there.
But I digress.
The 10 MPH speed restriction ends when the entire train passes milepost 2.2. Timetable speed for all trains increases to 25 MPH between here and milepost 2.7 at the south end of the tunnel. Certain trains are restricted to a maximum speed of 10 MPH while passing under McCormick Place West. We have one of those trains today meaning we will operate for another half mile at this nice slow speed. Again, the entire train must be past milepost 2.7 before I can increase my speed. This can really be a pain in the ass. With a big train like today’s beast, you have the train in several states of ascending and descending mode. As we proceed south out of the tunnel, the track levels a bit and then begins a gentle ascent again. As the tail end of the train works its way south, it begins to start down through the tunnel.
Another aspect that makes operating a big train between 21st Street and the south end of the tunnel is the undulating or rolling terrain. As I start the climb up to 16th Street I am starting to work the power to begin pulling the head end up hill. I can back off the throttle a bit as I start into the curve by South Wye Junction, but then have to start working it harder again as I start into the tunnel. About halfway through the tunnel I can start backing off the throttle and eventually get back into run 1 or even idle.
If you remember you basic laws of physics and Newton’s theory of gravity, you can quickly calculate that what goes up must come down. And when you carry a lot of weight, you tend to drop faster than you went up. When you apply these theories to railroading, it means the tail end of the train is now trying to go faster than the head end. So what this creates is a run in of the slack. The tail end is now trying to push me faster than I desire to go. And when you have twenty-four loads on the very rear beginning their descent down the hill inside the tunnel, they really want start going very fast, very quickly.
When I have a lead unit equipped with dynamic brakes, I can use this handy, dandy little tool to keep things under control quite well. By the time I have reached the south end of the tunnel, I can have the dynamic brakes starting to bunch up the slack and hold the train speed to the required 10 MPH. Even just a single unit with dynamic works well here against a heavy tonnage train like we have today. As I am bunching up the slack and keeping the speed in check, I reduce the in train forces and the tail end will not smack us as it starts down the hill in the tunnel.
But today I have no lead unit equipped with dynamic. I have two choices remaining to control my speed, using the automatic brake valve and setting the train brakes or using the engine brakes. Being that it is rather cold outside and that we have a very long train, I decide against the train brakes. I would only need a minimum reduction (the least possible amount of air I could set) to control my speed. With all things considered, there is a certain possibility of having some brakes sticking after I release them in the train should I go with the train brakes. So I opt to go with the engine brake method. In this manner I will gradually apply about twenty pounds of brake cylinder pressure against the wheels of all of my locomotives slowly gradually bunching up the slack in the train as it rolls down the hill against the engines. I’ll keep the train at 10 MPH and won’t get that big smack of slack in the process.
We roll through the 2700 or so feet of tunnel under McCormick Place West and back into daylight. Just south of the tunnel is I-55, the Stevenson Expressway named for Illinois politician and former presidential candidate, Adlai Stevenson.
With a train of appreciable length and no delays it takes about fifty minutes to go from Hawthorne Yard to the south end of McCormick Place West. Add another forty minutes of running time to Homewood and get one hour, thirty minutes of total time between Hawthorne and Markham. Today it took us almost twice that much about eight and one half miles. We still have some twenty-three plus miles to go to reach Homewood, at the south end of Markham.
We’ll track this final leg of this trip in part three.
The Santa Train was another rousing success this past weekend. I’ll give you a rundown on it next week. I want to thank all of you that took the time to come out to visit and say hello. A great time was had by all. I don’t know for sure who had the most fun, the kids who came to see Santa or those of us who helped Santa out on his train.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Did anybody see the SJLRTS cars on its test run today?
I haven't looked since Sunday.
A source tells me that newly hired train operators are high railing to learn the physical characteristics of the line.
I saw 3504 in 36th St yard yesterday. I finished up an eye doctor appointment up around willingboro and decided to take the long way home. I headed for the river and wound my way back south on 543, stopping along the way to look at the progress and hoping to hear the Mercedes of LRVs coming down the tracks. Sadly I saw none out on the northern part of the line I drove down, but I only spent like an hour driving, and may have missed any that were out during the many side trips 543 takes off toward the river.
I was surprised by the size of the LRV, it's tiny. It always seemed huge in the pictures on CCB's webshots, but from what I saw of it, it looked smaller than the HBLRT's trains. Sadly my cheap-a$$ digital camera crapped out on me, and my APS camera is AWOL, so no shots of 3504 from me, you'll all have to contend with Mr Vogel's excellent shots.
Thank you for the kind words, Mr Dobner. Here is photo that gives a perspective regarding size. The foamer standing in front of the car is 5'10" (formerly 5'11", but beaten down by 35 years of marriage).
My Webshots page was still in "edit" mode when I copied the url. If it doesn't work, use this.
Fred Ciocciola emailed this report to fellow members of the West Jersey Chapter NRHS:
December 17, 2002
Went over to Philadelphia today to check on progress with refurbishing route 15.
Looks like most trackwork is completed. This includes several fairly extensive sections where track was renewed, and other places where the street was resurfaced over the existing track, which did not require renewal. They were still working on the special work at 40th & Girard/Parkside, where they were connecting the new track to the existing track on the east side of 40th street on Girard. They still have to reconnect the turnback loop on Parkside Avenue where it goes to Girard Avenue.
Most of the safety islands along Girard Avenue have been completed.
Girard Avenue, from about Richmond street to Broad Street, has been relined to keep automobiles off of the track area, where practical.
All the wire work is finished, except on Richmond Street where it passes under the Reading near Lehigh Avenue. This is a low clearance underpass, where trucks keep tearing down the wire. I guess they will replace it just before they are ready to resume service.
The most recent part of the work to be completed is at the Callowhill Depot. It appears that they will be using, counting from Callowhill Street and working south to Vine Street, the second, third and fourth bays for trolleys. The first bay burned down some time ago and was torn down. There is now some parking and a metal building (both recently added) in the area that was the first bay. Access to the bays will be from 58th Street. The route 15 cars will gain access from Girard Avenue westbound, turning south on 60th street, and east on Callowhill to 58th. An interesting feature of this operation is that the cars going into the second bay must first turn south onto 58th, then back up into the tail track past the switch into the second bay, and then pull forward. The cars will leave all three bays on 59th Street, and proceed north two blocks to Girard to rejoin the route. For the second bay, a new switch and connecting track has been installed to connect it to 59th street north. It is interesting to note that the track on 60th street is formerly route 46, the last route to use standard double end cars in 1958. Also, the switch point for the track leaving bay three was replaced (it had been missing for several years), apparently using the point from another switch on Callowhill street at 59th. Even though there are three tracks in bays three and four, only two tracks will be used. I did not go up to 60th and Lansdowne to see if they reinstalled the switches there, which would provide access for route 10 cars to the depot, since these cars are supposed to use Callowhill also.
Can't wait until they receive the rebuilt PCCs and start testing them.
Fred
Bob, Thanks for the forward ... very good news !
Nice to see they're actually expanding the system again, rather than shrinking it.
Without sounding detrimental, let's see what SEPTA does with the 23,
if the restoration of the 15 is successful?
Also how about the 53 & 56? Are they still tracked or wired?
While on the subject of SEPTA Surface a/o Subway~Surface Lines, what
is the life expectancy of the 'K' cars? Are they due for a mid
life overhall soon? They are now in 20+ years of service.
Any plans from SEPTA, besides the new PCCs look-a-likes for other
cars? More steel wheels on steel rails under wire, not rubber tires.
;-) Sparky
A lot of SEPTA's Kawasakis have already been overhauled. If you sit in the very first row of seats on the left side of the vehicle, and look up at the wall in front of you, you might see a plaque giving the date of that vehicle's overhaul.
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the data about the K cars. Just so busy with other things,
that I do not venture to SEPTA Country often enough. I'll see what
comes me way in '03. May be less time here and more time there.
Happy Holidays,
;-) Sparky
56 is still tracked and wired but there is lots of community pressure on the east end (Torresdale Ave in Tacony) to pave over the tracks since the paving is so bad. SEPTA probably can't find the $ to rebuild this just yet, so the only politically expedient solution might be a temporary cover (and anyone's guess on how long temporary would/could be is as good as another).
53 is pretty much covered over with no wire. There is one block of rail on Pulaski Ave just north of Erie but that will probably disappear with planned sewer work next year. The remaining track in 17th St is also slated to get paved over. 53 is not on SEPTA's list of lines to save at any rate. An off-again, on-again proposal to tie the 53 north of Wayne Junction to the 75 trackless would bring electric operation back to most of the line (if this ever happens, and the trackless itself is an endangered species on SEPTA depending on who you listen to, the H and XH buses would probably be split, with one being rerouted to cover the portion of 53 below Wayne Junction).
15 is slated to return in fall '03 at this point. The trackwork and related items are pretty much done but there are no cars to run the line until the rehabbed PCC's return from Brookville.
BobW,
Much gratitude for answering my queries, as to the current status
of SEPTA's Surface Lines. A lot of the on again/off again is the
same lore just a different time. Well, wishful thinking on the
part of this Streetcar Fanatic from the Big Apple. Been around
long enough to recollect the hopes for the 50 line and now the
53 has joined it as a "What If?" they didn't dewire it etc...
Happy Holidays,
;-) Sparky
Route 50? No longer in existence, even as a bus. For some reason, they reorganized EVERYTHING in 1992 or so. Route 5 no longer goes to South Philadelphia, Route 47 is on 7th and 8th instead of 8th and 9th (the 47m does 9th Street), and Route 50 is gone. At the same time, Route P in Frankford was dropped, and Route 89 was restructured into parts of the P and 57. The Jefferson/Master Streets crosstown has since been dropped (too close to the 15), and that brings me to Route 57 (once used the crosstown segment), which takes up part of the 50 in some spots, and uses 3rd and 4th Streets between Girard Avenue and Whitman Plaza... 4th Street was part of the southbound Route 50, and 3rd was part of the northboud Route 5. I've STILL no clue why they did all that reorganizing, but it works.
Before you can ask, Route 6 is paved over and wireless. I remember the last days of the trolleys on Ogontz Avenue... not that many people ride the 6 anyways...
As far as Route 10 and access tracks to Callowhill... 60th Street will likely NOT be re-tracked, because the trolleys can take 63rd Street straight to Girard... also, I'm still myself unsure as to whether the 10 wll even USE Callowhill, or if it will continue to mix with the 11 and 36 trolley short-turn trips to Island Avenue & Woodland/73rd (Island Avenue)& Elmwood to use Elmwood Depot.
I think SEPTA might keep the 17th Street trackage in Nicetown. If they ever restore the 56 trolley, remember that 17th & Erie was a short-turn point (only for trips from Tacony). Likewise, they might also keep the access tracks to Luzerne Depot (which is currently little more than a storage facility, and looks more like an abandoned depot) from both Erie Avenue and Germantown Avenue, as they'd pretty much need Luzerne reopened if either rotue (56 or 23) were to be restored to trolley service, and DEFINITELY if both were. Germantown was a rather small depot, and didn't do much heavy maintenance (now, it serves as PCC storage and a training facility), Elmwood and Callowhill are too far away to use (The 56 would need to merge into the 23, and the 23 into the 15 (and if using Elmwood, the 15 into the 10 into the 11 or 36 by going through Center City - likely in REVENUE service) in order to get to those districts). Midvale wasn't built with trolleys in mind, and I don't think Allegheny ever did trolley work (If they did, it was back when Route 60 was still a trolley... and given that Allegheny seems exclusive to the 1980 to current era of SEPTA's articulated buses (and the ONE 40-foot Volvo they had; note that Allegheny Depot RARELY if ever saw a Neoplan or RTS II bus), which came about long after Route 60 was stripped of its trolley status, I doubt the possibilty of using it either. However, the 17th Street tracks, if extended, could eventually reach Midval district. i think lack of a nearby service facility is what mainly keeps SEPTA from restoring trolley service to Routes 23 and 56.
A few clarifications.
The east-side South Phila reorganizations were done to rationalize transit service there. The need for service on 2nd/3rd, 4th/5th, 8th/9th and 11th/12th just wasn't there any more. As a former resident of that area, I think the basic changes made sense, to better space services (now basically 3rd/4th, 7th/8th, 11th/12th). The replacement of 5 with 57 didn't help the area, since one long and generally undependable line was replaced with another. 47m is purely a political creature to placate the Italian Market riders.
Jefferson/Master still got service by the reworked 89 for a short time, until SEPTA got gutsy enough to face the poltical pressure and end it.
6 is a bus but it is one of SEPTA's highest volume lines (notice that Neoplan artics serve it 24 hours a day). There is ridership that would support rail service.
Callowhill, in its ultimate configuration, is supposed to house both the 15's PCC's and K cars for 10 to avoid the long deadheads from Elmwood. Both classes of cars will need to travel to Elmwood for anything more than routine maintenance.
The 17th St trackage is a goner. SEPTA retained it for years as a 56 turnback but its condition is not good (and the turnback is only 6 blocks shy of the 23rd/Venango loop anyway). The last talk about its use was during Railworks when the ex-Reading bridge over Erie Ave was being rehabbed and the cars couldn't travel under it, but most of that work happened after 56 was bussed.
Luzerne will most likely not return as a depot, which poses problems for any future of 23 and 56. Midvale's use as a car depot would require a decent amount of track connecting it to either (or both) 23rd/Venango or Germantown/Berkley (via Roberts). Midvale has no provision for rail (all bus storage is under cover but basically outside) although the property is sufficiently large to accommodate a car house.
The 17th St track only runs for one block (Erie to Pulaski) and is only a single track. To get to Midvale it would have to follow the 53's routing (Pulaski/18th) to either Hunting Park/Wissahickon or Clarissa/Roberts. Neither is a short hop.
Germantown Depot was a maintenance base and did indeed perform heavy work on its stable of PCC's while they were stationed there. Some of those 2700's which arrived there when they came from the builder in 1947 were still there when the depot closed as a trolley base in 1976.
I'm not sure how you would merge 23 and 56 or 15 and 23 since they go in perpendicular directions. Details would be helpful.
Allegheny was originally a trolley base, although the current version (completely rebuilt in the mid-80's) never saw any trolleys. It was one of the three PTC depots which served trolley, trackless and bus (Southern and Frankford being the other two). Before it became 100% artic two years ago, it was the base for many different buses, including a small fleet of Neoplans (parts of the 3100 series and 3300 group were there). Over 100 RTS's were also assigned there when they arrived in 1980. When Germantown closed in '92 the 60 +/- RTS's assigned there moved to Allegheny and roughly 40 of the lower-numbered Allegheny buses went to Callowhill, so by the time the RTS's were replaced by Ikarus/NABI's in 1996-97 there were about 115 of them still based at Allegheny.
Your last point is well taken. The issue of storage will need to be resolved before any serious discussions can take place on the 23/56 revitalization. So far, no answers are forthcoming.
This, of course may be SEPTA's way of shutting the City up. 15 comes back (please note that even though the cars will appear to be PCC's, they will in reality be LRV's in PCC shells. Even the trucks will be B3 variants with LRV wheels and motors. The cars could not be equipped with the low center doors and keep the traditional PCC control, so the only option was solid state controls. Once that decision was made, SEPTA wisely decided to make the cars as close to the LRV state as possible so to reduce the amount of spare parts that needed to be on hand at Elmwood.) and it may actually work, but SEPTA can than claim that the money spent to bring 15 back could have been better spent in low-floor buses that could do the job.
SEPTA has gone on record as eliminating all non subway-surface streetcar lines. They suceeded in 1992, but City keeps trying to bring them back.
Question: What does Ed Rendell in Harrisburg do for Philadelphia transit?
Ed Rendell isn't in Harrisburg yet.
The hope of many Philadelphians is that with a Philadelphian as governor, the state government may pay better attention to the needs of the city. Since SEPTA is a state agency, this could mean the transit agency will be more attentive to what the city wants and needs, as the thinking goes. (Note: I think SEPTA is much more controlled by the state than is MTA.)
Mark
Keep in mind that, as mayor, Rendell fought with SEPTA over the city/suburban imbalance of funding. A result of this fight was the revitalization of 15. Since then, SEPTA has done just about everything in its power to ensure that 15 could fail, and after over $40 million spent on it, it's a sure bet that few others like it will happen. Whether Gov Rendell can do anything here (now that he can't take sides in a city/suburban battle), we shall see. No doubt that SEPTA will benefit, but the projects may be more on the lines of the Schuylkill Valley Metro, Cross County, etc, which serve the region.
To merge the streetcar trolleys:
23 via southbound routing to Girard Avenue (or all the way to Noble, Bainbridge, Snyder Ave, or 10h & Bigler, then back north to Girard).
From 11th/12th & Girard Avenue, Route 15 to 63rd & Malvern (either change to Route 10 trackage at Lancaster/48th Street & Girard Avenue, or go all the way via Girard Avenue & 63rd Street (an original part of the proposal to bring back the 15 trolley was to terminate it at 63rd & Malvern loop instead of at 63rd & Girard)).
From 63rd & Malvern loop, Route 10 to 40th & Market Streets, then Route 11 to Island & Woodland or Route 36 to 73rd/Island & Elmwood Avenue. OR, run all the way underground, and change line designation at Juniper/13th Street.
If including Route 56: Run via Erie Avenue to 10th Street to Luzerne Depot. (Not sure of track configuration at Old York Road & Erie Ave.) Exit Luzerne onto Old York Road, proceed to Germantown Avenue to pick up Route 23 southbound, and go from there.
Quite obviously too long a run to make just for maintenance. They'd be better off reopening Luzerne or Germantown, those being the closest depots to the 23 and 56 line. The 23 alone could MAYBE handle a run to/from Callowhill... Elmwood would be a stretch. The 56 couldn't do it.
Route 6 is THAT heavy? The service frequency doesn't show it... The ONLY other SEPTA bus routes using artics 24/7 are the 33 and 60... which originally used RTS IIs all the time (well, the 60 had the Volvos when they came). I think the 48 also uses artics for every trip, but it doesn't run all night for some odd reason.
Thanks for the clarfications of routings.
Luzerne could come back as a reincarnation (another building on the same site, which is fairly large). It is a good central location for 23 and 56 and could work for 15 (it did in the late 60's/early 70's when the Girard Ave bridge over the Schuylkill River was being rebuilt). During the bridge work 15 ran only east of 26th & Girard.
Going from memory, I believe there is a south to west and east to south connection at Old York & Erie, so this may need to be modified for some of your line proposals.
6 is carrying about 15,000 passengers per day. You'll note that it has some limited stop service in the peak direction in the peak hours. Its ridership has actually grown since it was converted from trolley to bus (you may remember that, in days gone by, it operated a dual service, with trolleys on the Cheltenham & Ogontz portion and buses on the Willow Grove/Johnsville segment, and both buses and trolleys alternated on the Ogontz Ave service). The bus portion was separated as 22 a few years ago and now operates via Broad and Cheltenham instead of Ogontz.
All service out of Allegheny Depot is handled by artics (6, 9, 27, 33, 48, 60, and half of 65). Some of 54 may be moved there to use them also. About 50 artics are based at Midvale and usually turn up on 18, 22, 55 and 80, with occasional service on C.
I agree with Sparky here. Although I am a big fan of SEPTA's well maintained K cars (they do keep them pretty nice considering the heavy wear these cars are subjected to).....before discussion begins on the expansion of rail service, SEPTA needs to look at the replacement of these cars before it gets too late (see market-frankford line for example)
Ok, I am still planning on a Mid-Holiday SEPTA railfan trip. Take some time off of work and spend the day enjoying SEPTA's weekday schedual. Not only that, but the lack of Supervisors due to the holiday vacations makes cab rides a definite possibility.
So far the itinerary calls for an R2 round trip to Wilmington and then some combination involving the R3 to Media, the R6 to Norristown, the Rt 102 and or the Rt 100. The preliminary date is the Friday after Christmas. Please respond to this or e-mail me if you are interested. Last year was a blast and we got TWO cab rides.
Last year was a blast and we got TWO cab rides.
The second cab ride, on the Broad Street Subway Ridge Ave express train gave us an unobstructed view of the Ridge Ave Spur/BSS junction.
I neglected to say "Count me in".
Another example of last year's experience.
Is that Friday good? You might try making another anouncement at the Chapter Meeting. I sadly will not be abe to attend said meeting, but my dad will be showing up in my stead. I have also invited the author of http://www.sjrail.com I got to now him a bit via e-mail exchanges.
That Friday's good for me. I'll make the announcement at Thursday's meeting. Maybe Fred will join us again.
eBay Item # 2150575136
What the ???
Just gathering my composure here, suffering from foamer syndrome....
Observed in the last 30 minutes of a transfer of two diesel locomotives towing REDBIRDS! 9054-55 spotted between locomotives, no power on subway cars
Don't know the destination of the train, but believe these are off to to Linden Yard, for departure from the system.
Could this be the shipment to IRM? Need confirmation. Redbirds could very well be passengers on a freight train for the trip west, if this is the case. Got to check Linden, Fresh Pond (Freight), and Oak Point Yards....
-Stef
I thought the IRM wanted an R-26 or R-28 pair because they were made by ACF. The 9054-55 pair would be St. Louis Car.
True, but they may not have been able to secure an ACF pair, since ACF cars are virtually extinct as of this writing (damned reefs). Whatever remains of the R-26/28s is being held for NYCT (for instance, school cars).
Only IRM knows for sure, I'm merely speculating.
-Stef
For the record, I have no idea what is happening with the IRM Redbird project. Pretty much the last I had heard was about three or four years ago when the decision to get a Redbird was made.
Actually, it is true that we were hoping for an ACF... but perhaps red tape and other concerns made it impossible to get one. As for whether these are our cars and when they might get here, all I can say is that I'll let you know when I see a pair of red subway cars show up in Union.
Frank Hicks
We'll be awaiting the big news.
Regards,
Stef
With all due respect to the many dedicated volunteers at IRM and other trolley museums, why does the ILLINOIS Railway Museum need a pair of NEW YORK CITY subway cars?
I've never been to IRM, and I've heard good things about them, so this is not intended as a direct criticism of them. Rather, it's just that there are way too many trolley and railway museums that collect old equipment like packrats. They all have finite resources (including space). Does every one really need NYC subway cars and Chicago El cars? Here in Syracuse, the local railway association has a Pennsylavnia GG-1 electric locomotive stored at the State Fairgrounds. It's an interesting curiosity the first time you see it, but what's the point really?
This summer, I visited the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. I photographed and rode ... Baltimore streetcars. It was great to visit a museum which is focused on a specific city, and not distracted in trying to be all things to all people.
Rant over.
JD
I think IRM has always been inclusive to railcars and equipment in general irregardless of geographical origin....maybe their 'subtitle' should be the 'National Historic Railway Museum' (or something like that) since they do collect from far and wide. I don't have a problem with them having Redbirds (or anything else) as long as it gets TLC (meaning that they just don't collect the cars merely to brag: 'look, we have some genuine NYC subway cars', only to rot out in a weeded field -- but to be run and have a crew of workers able to restore and preserve the cars).
Branford (aka Shoreline Trolley Museum) has a nice collection of cars primarily from Connecticut and New York. They also have some Canadian, Boston and Chicago items, but these are few so the organization remains pretty much focused on electric railway vehicles from the 'tri-state' region.
Also, isn't the reason IRM wants those redbirds is because the ACF cars were built in Il.?
Peace,
ANDEE
A.C.F. is Berwick, PA...my good man! ;)
Then I must of meant St. Louis Car company.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think IRM wants ACF cars because they're older and rarer...as St. Louis made the bulk of the fleet of Redbirds.
Who cares 'ya stinkin' foamer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also ACF made single units...
Such as the R-10s and R-16s. And, of course, Shoreline's own 1689!:)
I'd rather see the cars preserved somewhere, anywhere, than not at all. More power to IRM if they have the resources to acquire a set.
--Mark
I agree. However, as in another post on this topic, I hope that they will be used and not left to rot in a field. I made a contribution for obtaining them and I hope to be able to see them run when (if) I go out there again.
I don't see why there couldn't be an Active Exhibit versus a Static One. If Branford adopted the "no pole" policy, virtually all of the RT Equipment would not be operational, except for certain Gate Cars that had poles originally. The key to consider would be $. Would people pay more to see a static display, or riding a piece of history?
I would compromise by putting only one pole on the car. The other end of the pair could still look authentic. The question of authenticity can be debated.
We certainly don't want equipment that's going to rot in a field. Hopefully some shelter could be found.
There might be ways to make the cars run even with no pole mounted on them. Tow them as motorless coaches is one possibility. The other might be to run a 600v jumper cable from the pair to something that has a trolley pole, such as a work utility vehicle.
This is just my two cents worth.
-Stef
>>>"We certainly don't want equipment that's going to rot in a field. Hopefully some shelter could be found."<<<
Oh, no duplication of cars that are at a Museum in New York State.
>>>"There might be ways to make the cars run even with no pole mounted on them. Tow them as motorless coaches is one possibility"<<<
Why not, the Museum in New York does it with an R-16, while most of
the collection, basks uncovered in the sun, returning to nature. >G<
;-) Sparky
The Transit Museum is no better in that respect, since most of that equipment resides outdoors.
But what can we do?
-Stef
Stef,
I really am not that familiar with the rolling stock, assigned to the
"Transit Museum", that's not at Court Street.
But are these the cars that are leased to the "Transit Museum" by RPC?
And is any type of preservation, restoration or stabalization
being done on any of them? Everytime some posting comes to light
on this board, a certain person, seems to wants to quell any mention.
I was asked, once if I would like to visit, but never came to fruition,
maybe because I queried, if I could bring my video camera?
Enjoy the holidays, more so this year, since they're on your
normal days off. :)
~ Sparky
I'll try and put in my two cents on a number of different points made in this thread...
JD makes a very good point - that New York subway cars are going to be a little unusual at the ILLINOIS Railway Museum. It's true - we've never before acquired electric equipment from so far abroad, and the acquisition of the Redbirds is one of the more internally controversial moves we've made in the past few years.
BMTman also makes a good point, though, and that is that IRM's collection has grown far beyond Illinois and even beyond the Midwest. The electric collection has always been centered around the Midwest, and that fact hasn't really changed although the steam-road collection is now essentially nationwide in geographical scope. One of the arguments for acquiring the Redbirds was that they would provide visitors with an obvious contrast to the shorter, narrower and lighter Chicago "L" cars that are in IRM's permanent collection. This keeps the focus on the Midwest, and yet allows us to acquire a small sampling of eastern cars (Broad Street #55 at IRM is an example of this as well). Our resources are such that, by now, we can afford to acquire cars that aren't strictly within our acquisition guidelines without sacrificing much in the way of money or effort that might be spent on the Midwestern collection.
The main reason IRM is interested in ACF-built cars isn't related to geographical location of the builder, but is because the only ACF rapid transit cars we currently have are wood cars built soon after the turn of the century. While IRM owns "L" cars built by St. Louis in the 1950's, we don't own any modern ACF cars - which is regarded as a "gap in the collection."
Now go out there and send $$$ to the IRM Redbird Fund! That's an order!!! :-)
Frank Hicks
Years ago there was a huge fight between the IRM Powers-That-Be over whether the collection should be just of equipment that ran in and around Chicago or more broad in scope.
Thank You for the clarification.
Peace,
ANDEE
Frank, I was under the impression that your organization wanted them for the reasons you stated AND that they would see a lot of service vs. some of the other mass transit items in your collection. This way the IRM family wouldn't mind too much there getting used up.
It's a struggle for all operating museums. You want to provide a good example of what you're all about for the public to ride, but then every trip takes it's toll. Some at Branford have been re-stored several times because of this. As more & more time passes this becomes a greater problem because some of the components that ware will be harder & harder to replace or re-new. So, what do you do then, leave the car "Stuffed & Mounted" or use it until it won't run anymore ? Cast wheels on the old trolley cars is another example ... do you upgrade to steel wheels ? The purist say NO WAY.
Thurston, you're right that one of the original reasons given for acquiring the Redbirds was that operating them would "take some of the heat" off of the Chicago collection. The idea was that we could run the Redbirds more and the Chicago stuff less, thereby saving wear and tear on the more locally historic equipment.
However, the decision was made to stipulate that trolley poles not be mounted on the Redbirds because that would be historically inaccurate. Poles were put on our Broad Street subway car after that was acquired in the 1980's, and that action raised an uproar among the purists. Partly because of that, and because of IRM's long-standing determination to go out of its way to be historically accurate, the Redbirds are being acquired solely for display.
Frank Hicks
I believe Seashore's interest in some ridercar/trolley dolley/etc. Red Birds is just to body styles (I'm a member there too, so see there newsletter).
"Poles on subway cars ... that action raised an uproar among the purists." We tell them that THAT is the reason we only put a pole on one end ... so go photograph the car from the other end < g > We also hid the power cable within the cars frame.
My personal feeling is that operators were quick to upgrade, replace, substitute components just to keep the fleet going, so why can't a museum do the same if it doesn't permanently alter the appearance of the car. And in some cases so what if it does ... take Branford's "Shunter". Borrowing a model term, it was Kit-Bashed in Montreal. Parts of a trolley car became a yard tug (no roof, no sides, just couple of motors on a frame. you get to sit on a board that's on top of the resister banks). We added a box to her tail, now she's a tool car, and a very handy one at that. For the purists there is a plan to modify her back to the state she was in when she left that Montreal shop when a replacement tool car can be made/found, but mean while she earns her keep very well. We have two other MOW cars that see a lot of service, but we're a trolley company, so they are just doing what they have always done since they were manufactured.
Thurston, I know what you're getting at. The statement (as regarding modifications) that "if we hadn't done it, the railway would have" is nearly always true, and from a certain viewpoint treating the museum like its own railway is one of the most authentic ways to interpret history (no interurban would have been running cars in 18 different paint schemes, for one!). In many ways the Strasburg Railroad is a better example of a "typical" shortline than is, say, IRM with its multi-colored fleet of varied-heritage cars.
On the other hand, though, you can look at it sort-of like news. News reporters aren't supposed to make news, they're supposed to report it. If a newscaster goes and does something outrageous it's just as much "news" as if someone else had done it, but they're simply not supposed to be doing this stuff themselves. In the same way, you can say that a museum is not supposed to be "making" history, even if that involves something that someone else would have done. The museum's job is to interpret (to the extent it can) what actually did happen, and not what would or could have happened. That's the purist viewpoint. And, I would like to make a preemptive apology for that goofy analogy. :-)
Frank Hicks
Frank, I liked your remarks so much I printed off a copy & will keep it for future reference in my new position at Branford < grin >
Seriously, well said from both prespectives !
Oy, let the games begin ... Glad the meetings of this illustrious
group are now held off site. The operators at Branford would have
to acquire waders to step thru all the "You-Know-What"
that's going to be generated in '03 between WBY & Mr. rt. :) :) :)
Frank, between us, hasn't been to his 1st "Offical Meeting" yet as
an elected member. >G<
;-) Sparky
All that ROW that the Redbirds could run on and get up to good speed. What a wasted opportunity. You could argue they're not "pure" Redbirds anymore because of their GOH and A/C retrofits. A good compromise, as others have stated, is to put a pole on one car and leave the other unaltered. Then you get the best of both worlds.
--Mark
"A good compromise, as others have stated, is to put a pole on one car and leave the other unaltered. Then you get the best of both worlds."
No offense, but my familiarity with the IRM operation leads me to suspect that putting a pole on one car would actually be the worst of both worlds. You'd be modifying the cars from regular service (regardless of whether you put on one pole or two, it's still "wrong"), and yet the cars would still be virtually useless for operation because IRM's main line doesn't have turning loops.
Someone had mentioned hooking the Redbirds up to some other car with poles via a 600v jumper. This might actually work, although how I have no idea (and it would be certain to look bizarre). It would also not bother the purists, since 600v jumpers can usually be threaded through something that's already on the ends of the cars (we've done that with 6000's, beefing up the heat-and-light jumpers for motor current). I've always thought that putting a pan or pole on a reefer or something would be the best way to get the S-Motor running. Hah! :-)
Frank Hicks
Turning equipment --
Find a line frog where you can turn the single pole. Also, obtain a pole turning mechanism. At BERA, we also have a long retractable rod which serves this purpose, so single pole cars such as PCC 1001 could be run. It only has controls on one end, and is backed up going the other way.
As for no poles on the Redbirds--
If I recall correctly, you can run the 600v jumper from an electrical box underneath the car. I believe that's the box with the knife swictches. On one or two occassions, when the R-17 was shopped, Jeff H. jumpered the car in with the 600 from that box. That would be the electrical box located near the center doors.
I'm throwing around ideas to consider.
-Stef
"There are ways to do everything"
Stef:
You're certainly right that you could run a car with one pole. We have - Indiana Railroad #65 has been run many a time, and it's a single-ended car with a pole only at the rear. We bit the bullet and installed a retriever mount to the car side, along the underbody about halfway back (we also had to put in a rope guard at the roof line). Our line is equipped with specially-installed pulloffs that aren't frogs, but allow you to place the 65's pole on the wire when its swung around. Hard to describe. Anyway, it's possible, but a real pain in the butt. I'm not even sure that we ever ran the 65 in regular service on the main line - too much goofing around. At some point we plan on building turning loops at both ends of our line, but as long as 65 is the only single-ended car (it has other problems that keep it from being operated more than once or twice a year anyway) it's not worth it.
Frank Hicks
Eddie S. did the same thing to 1689 back in 1980. He ran a jumper wire from the box beneath the car to one of the power lines, literally touching the power line with a ten-foot pole. He was quick to point out that this method was "UL disapproved".
UL disapproved? Oh no!!! Use at your own risk!!!
-Stef
Hey ... what's electric railroading without a few sparks every now and then? :)
Yeah! I got to tell you, I haven't been jolted with the 600V yet, I hope to keep it that way... I might get an unwanted tan or new hairstyle as a result of my "experience".
Going on vacation soon, need to visit the old gal and pay her my respects!
-Stef
You've gotta play with 12,000 volt overhead. 600 volts is a mere TICKLE. :)
If you see 1689 soon, pat her on the arse and say hello for me. She's a GRAND old girl. We were nice to 6688 while we were there, Nancy took her out for a little spin and LOVED it. Guess whose train SHE adopted and hugged? Not mine. :(
She must be an IRT fan. Ahhhhhhhh - so wonderful!
Bingbong is my friend for life. LOL!
Oh wait - the car was chiming in her honor. No wonder she liked it so much...
-Stef
Heh. Yeah, she's a cheap date. :)
She'll be the first to tell ya - I hauled ash once I had the keys to the carbarn. I was up in 1689 in seconds. So, dejected, she came out of the closet as the "hey, I rode these too and they don't have that silly lapping thingy like YOURS." Heh. She done GOOD too ... SMEE's are such WIMPS. (grin)
But yeah, she rolled it out and parked it with Unca Lou while I was firing up 1689, loosening up the doors, and waiting for my 90 pounds with our own Steve B constantly asking "what's this? what's that? What happens if I touch this? (slap!)" So she rolled 6688 around the corner (and back) and THEN 1689 came out. She did all her own frog-pounding too. Moose-cular she be, a TRUE railroader. :)
You got cute and cut out the door control breaker on me once.:) I was just having fun, honest. All kidding aside, I figure the only way you're going to learn, other than actually doing it, is by asking questions. Just as Eddie S. was so helpful 22 years ago, so were you.
The door chimes on 6688 must have been off when I was working its doors because I didn't hear them.
P. S. That was a wooden pole I touched the power line with back in 1980. I wouldn't be here today had it not been.
Heh. So was I ... I did that to you in order to demonstrate that the drum switch ISN'T the sole method of zone control on those old girls, as well as why that conductor who had a train leave without him ... well ... phucked up. But I was happy to walk you and anyone else who was interested through the minutae of the mighty Arnine - not too many folks still with us that knew them well. But I s'pose you also got to see why I *loved* them so much and why they were probably the most flexible piece of equipment on the subways. Nothing like being able to just pull a brake handle and change ends WITHOUT dumping. Can't do that on many trains these days other than top-charging and that's got limits too.
As it turns out, we BOTH got fooled by 6688 ... seems there was a little chromium switch on the bottom of the door control panel that had to be thrown and it was in the off position. So I had to settle for pushing the PTT button and giving out a MOO instead. Stef was hot enough when he heard 6688 was desecrated by a bingbong module - he woulda had a cow if he'd heard me MOO. Oh wait a minute, *I* had the cow. Nevermind. :)
Give 1689 and 6688 my regards, too.
Bummer. OTOH as long as the Redbirds were maintained at least cosmetically along the same lines as Blue Goose 4021 and stored indoors, I could live with that.
"OTOH as long as the Redbirds were maintained at least cosmetically along the same lines as Blue Goose 4021 and stored indoors, I could live with that."
I'm honestly not sure whether they'll be stored indoors. Each new arrival needs to raise a certain amount of money for its own track storage, to be paid to the IRM General Fund (the concept here is that new acquisitions must pay for the Museum to build the track they'll sit on - essentially a method of weeding out junk acquisitions that no one is interested in). Indoor storage is more money yet. The Redbirds have raised a good deal of money, but I don't know whether they'll have enough to go inside once the next barn is built in the next couple of years (this may depend in part on transportation costs). The only thing I can say is: send us your money!!! :-)
Frank Hicks
Actually the truth is, the pair is on the way to Branford! I will handle these two gals like they were my very own, and get the same TLC as another old gal often receives.
Psyche!
-Stef
P.S. I wish this were the case. LOL!
So I was on my way home from the demo at City Hall and I say to the C/R, "I serviced this Redbird pair the other day." What I did not know is that some of the crew caught me on ABC Channel 7 news. Redbirds: we keep em going like a bad stomach ulcer.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh. Yes they seem to have a life of their own, don't they? Fearless creatures working through the night.
-Stef
I have been told that the train in question was a scrap car transfer, East 180th St Yard to 207th St Yard. Very interesting....
-Stef
I buried hundreds of birds...most went to the fishies, a few to museums. A pair culled to work service reappeared RTO...special cars that I remember. #5 has gotten a few pairs of SMS rebuilds that need TLC. Good work, easy work, trainsets to learn systems on. East 180th will preserve the Redbirds to the last.
Stef: On another matter, I was just wondering if the settlement met your approval. From what I've heard some workers were convinced they didn't get what they deserved. I hope it past muster with you because a strike would have been bad. On the other hand, people deserve to making a decent living and from my own experiences management will do all they can to bullshit their employees and always cry poverty when they have to ante up. Not all management fits that description as some are really up front people, but after teaching for 35 years I ran into both kinds and it just bums you out when you have to deal with the dishonest and phony kind.
The settlement is fine. It's better than nothing at all. I'm just glad I didn't make it to the picket line. I wasn't looking forward to it....
-Stef
Some of them should be happy they have a job, what with the Bush Depression going on right now
One more crack like that and I'm deporting you to Iran.
Hey CI Peter: you got your 15 minutes of fame? Not bad!
Why would IRM take a R-33?
The R-36 has more historical value.
(They served the 1964 World's Fair, 2000 Subway Series, Mets Games, US Open, & the '66 Beatles concert at Shea.)
>>>"Why would IRM take a R-33?"<<<
Why not a R-33WF vs R-33ML???
>>>"The R-36 has more historical value."<<<
>>>"(They served the 1964 World's Fair, 2000 Subway Series, Mets Games, US Open, & the '66 Beatles concert at Shea.)"<<<
Why not a R-33 Worlds Fair instead of a R-36 Worlds Fair???
Same historical value, except it was never ac~eed and it's a
single unit not a pair. Whatever goes to IRM, it'll only
be stuffed and mounted. So what's the difference other than
windows? Will the stuffed unit be returned to it's World's Fair
paint, if it's a R-36 pair? Or does IRM, just want a pair of
New York City Subway cars, for comparison to its midwest peers.
;-) Sparky
Why the obsession with the WF varieties? To a Queens historian, they're of greater interest, but to the city as a whole the R-33ML has played a more substantial role.
David,
No obsession with the Worlds Fair Cars. Just a thought, if it's
stuffed and mounted as originally painted, then Worlds Fair YES...
but for a general A division car[s], a R-33 Mainline is O.K. by me.
Besides, IRMs preference was for an ACF built pair, not Louie's.
Seasons Greetings,
;-) Sparky
FWIW they also served the Beatles' 1965 concert at Shea. Yes, the Beatles did perform at Shea in '65. That concert was sold out while the one in 1966 wasn't. QVC was offering unsold tickets from the 1966 concert, framed and authenticated, a few years ago.
I may have underestimated the availablility of R-26s/28s. A source close to me explains that a rep from IRM was on the ERA fan trip back on 12/8. The following day, he visited Concourse Yard to examine the last 8 R-26s/28s pulled from #5 service on 10/7. I had assumed these had already been removed from Concourse for reefing. This was not the case. Suggested cars for acquisition would either be 7818-19 or 7862-63. A final decision has to be made on the acquisition.
-Stef
I hope you're right. Too bad they can't mix/match an R26 and a R28 as a set.
I also wish that 2 Redbirds from each class be held for Museum charters. The Triplxes, Lov-Vs Standards, and R1-9's just aren't going to be road-worthy foeveer; then we'll have nothing.
If the R-26s/28s had retained their H2C Couplers instead of drawbars, that might have been possible. It was regular practice for pairs to be married with other partners prior to the 1990s.
-Stef
Saw this train on the Express Track tonight at 645pm completely dark and with MANY broken windows. 9741 was the North Motor and all the other cars were lit. 9573 was the south motor. Anybody knows what happened to that car tonight? I assume the stoonad school kids had too much fun vandalizing it?
Either that or they want the Redbirds gone from the 7.
1656-1660 are on the road. 1660 is the north motor. Be on the lookout.
#9722 7 Flushing Express
PS 9741 was the only car that had the broken windows. All others were ok.
#9573 7 Flushing Local
Probably vandalism, so the car was isolated until it could be taken out of service.
-Stef
1651-65 went over, no? I saw 1665 on the 7 with purple stickers about a week or so ago. 1666-75 should still be on the 1 as of this writing.
-Stef
1656-1665 have seen service on the 7 (purple). I saw 1666-1670 with red stickers on the 1 about 2 weeks ago.
Not sure about 1671-1675. I assume still on the 1?
1651-1655 I assume are in hiding at Corona (sticker change).
They'll be on the road shortly.
#1665 7 Flushing Local
They are planning to transfer all the 1600-1700 cars PLUS how many singles to the Corona Yard, correct; so I can keep my numbers book straight, I have to put a purple flag on the page
wayne
Correct!
That should be 1651-1900 for linked cars, while most singles will also go over...
-Stef
Hi guy,
I am just writing to let you all know that I will be off line for about a week or so.
The reason is that my Farther just pasted away yesterday afternoon. He was taking my mother in for a preoptation visit. He was parking the car and told the person at the parking lot to park his car he was having a Hart Attack, and walked into the EM and collasped at the door. The doctors tryed to bring him back, but nothing could be done. My Morther did not know this was going on untill later on.
I could say this the TA curse got one more good person, he just retired in Februay after 32 years of serivce.
Robert Mencher
I ment to say ER not EM.
Robert
No problem.
I am very sorry to hear about your father. My thought and prayers are with you and your family.
-Mark W
I'm sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
Regards,
Stef
I am sorry. also. May God be with you in your time of need.
Chuck Greene
My friend, may the Grace of the Lord be upon you and yours always. There is no TA curse...this is good work and your father put in decent effort for a decent career only to seccumb to illness. I get the biz on the job...gonna put in thirty years...I'll be 79. You make your best, you do your best and you give the Grace. Robert, your father did so. CI peter
My condolences to you and yours in this time of hardship.
So sorry to hear about your loss, Robert. You and your family are in my prayers.
My condolences.
I'm sorry to hear about your loss.
---Brian
Condolences on your loss, Robert. May the Lord comfort you and your family.
I am sorry to hear about your father's death Robert. May he rest in peace in heaven & be okay yourself too because I know death really hurts alot when you loose people or the person that you care alot. The best to you & your family.
Robert, our thoughts and prayers are with you in your time of loss.
May the words that our sages prayed grant you comfort: Eil malei rachamim... God full of compassion, dwelling in the heights and in the depths, grant perfect rest under the wings of Your Presence to your father, your loved one who has entered eternity. He has found refuge forever in the shadow of Your wings, and his soul is bound up in the bond of eternal life; for You, the Everlasting God, are his inheritance. May he rest in peace, as we say: Amen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert, My deepest condolences to you and your family at this time of sorrow. Your father's passing was quick and he probably didn't suffer. My father also died the same way 27 years ago, so I know how you feel.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yikes, my condolences are with you all the way. Sorry to hear this :-(
Robert,
My sincerest condolences.
The Vulcans have an expression: "I greave with thee".
I lost my father to a massive heart attack in 1969, so I know what you are going through. I still miss him. He was 62 when he died.
The pain will dull, but you will always recall him.
My condolences to you and your family, at this time of loss.
wayne
Robert, sorry to hear of your loss. May you find solice in the many friends you have made hear at SubTalk...my condolences to you and your family....
Doug
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. Your dad was obviously a man of great courage and kindness.
My condolences to you and your family Robert.
Paul
Robert -
I'm very sorry to hear of your lost. May your father rest in peace and I wish you and your family the best during this difficult time.
Wayne
robert i lost my mother at this time 13 years ago and know the pain you are feeling. take solace in your family.
Robert: That last sentence really got me. Thirty-two years on the job and hardly a chance to enjoy his golden years. Not only a pity but a rotten shame. I wonder if there are any people out there who now don't believe the working man still gets the short end of the stick. They work their buns off most of their life and hope that they have some golden years left. My sympathy is with you and please accept my deepest condolance at the passing of your father.
Robert, I'm so sorry. May you be comforted by pleasant memories you have shared with your family.
--Mark
Thanks to all of you her on SubTalk.
Robert
Sorry to hear about your loss.
May you and your family have only good things happen from now on.
My most extreme sympathies as well ... just got to your message. :(
You have my sympathies. Like Fred mentioned earlier, it's a shame when somebody passes on shortly after retirement. It's happened to quite a few NJ Transit engineers over the years, it's kind of scary.
Robert:
Even though you do not know me, My family and I are sorry for the loss of your father and he and your family will be in our family prayers. take care
John
My Condolences, i pray for you and your family. God be with you always
You have my sympathies, Robert. May your father rest in peace.
My sypathies for your loss.
Sincerest sympathies for your loss.
Sorry to hear that. In 2001, I had a number of relatives pass away, and now it seems that my grandfather won't be far behind.
I (sort of) feel your pain.
Robert, My sincere sympathy!
Bob A.
You and your family have my prayers and condolenses....
Robert, Our deepest sympathies. Our thoughts and prayers are with you at your time of grief. We know only too well how you feel at this time.
My sincere condolences and sympathy go out to you and your family on hearing this sad news about your Dad's passing.
Robert,
My deepest sympathy to you and your family. May God Bless all of you during this time of sorrow. -Nick
Robert:
My deepest condolences to you and yourfamily on the passing of your father. May he rest in peace.
Sincerely,
Danny
With deepest sympathies to you and your family Robert.
Robert: Please accept my deepest sympathies for your loss.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Robert:
If its any consolation, I can relate!
My father had a massive coronary one morning, exercising at home while I was experiencing a routine day on the job. No warning, no sign of trouble. My Mom found him dead when she came home from the hairdresser. He was not quite 69 years old at the time.
Hard as it hits, your faith will keep you strong. Focus on the love shared and the good memories. You'll find that the most innocent of his mannerisms will take on new meaning and stick with you forever. Above all, resolve to make the most of YOUR future! Every day and every hour of it!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Please accept my condolences.
Bklynsubwaybob
i am also sorry to hear of your loss.
My deepest sympathy on the loss to you, your mother and the rest of the family. May you have fond memories of him!
I'm very sorry to hear about your father passing on. Please accept my condolences.
Robert King
While taking an unusually uncrowded 9 from Penn Station to Houston Street this morning, I was looking at a brightly colored advertising poster touting international telephone calling cards. According to the ad, calls to Jamaica are 49 cents per minute, while calls to Japan are 14 cents per minute. Does anyone else see something very wrong with this picture??
Well if you look closely at ads for international calls I always note, with amazement, the cost of calls to India. Which hovers somewhere around $1.75 a minute. I figure it has something to do with the phone company in the called country.
Peace,
ANDEE
By now it costs the phone companies only a relatively small number of cents per minute to connect you anywhere. The main cost is the charge levied by the remote phone company and/or government, which can vary from 0 to multiple dollars per minute.
I saw al ist somewhere with every country and berg in the world listed.
You DO NOT want to call Afghanistan, it was around $8.00 a minute!
(Heck, do they even HAVE phones there?)
>>> I figure it has something to do with the phone company in the called country. <<<
More likely the taxing authorities. After all, who better to tax than someone in another country who can afford to make international calls, and what is easier to collect than money from the government controlled telephone company?
Tom
In the case originally mentioned, Jamaica, we weren't talking about a government controlled companmy, we were talking about a private enterprise(?) monopoly, Cable & Wireless, a British company which had the phone concession in many former British colonies now independent.
>>> we weren't talking about a government controlled companmy, we were talking about a private enterprise(?) monopoly <<<
That will not stop the government from taxing the incoming calls, and collecting from the telephone company.
Tom
In a word–competition.
Since there’s competition these days in many parts of the world, international phone rates are quite cheap (UK 6-7 cents per minute, for example).
However, there are still some hold-out monopolies. Most of the Carribean is served by Cable and Wireless, and the market’s presumably not big enough for other companies to enter, even assuming that they would be allowed to. Hence the outrageous charges.
There are also capacity issues. There’s tons of undersea fiber going to the Pacific Rim (one of the reasons why telecom companies are in the doldrums) as there’s lots of economic activity there. On the other hand, the Caribbean doesn’t have much beyond the tourism, with the probable single exception of Grand Cayman.
Yes. If people would use their local carrier to call Jamaica, Queens, it would cost them only $.25 for the entire call :)
--Mark
"Yes. If people would use their local carrier to call Jamaica, Queens, it would cost them only $.25 for the entire call :) "
Why call when they could just change at 42nd and go visit them in person?
In telephone rates to foreign counties, often the largest part of the cost is the fee collected by the local (often government owned) telephone company at the receiving end. Many countries look at this as a good source of foreign exchange income (soak the rich Americans). Jamaica is obviously one of them. Japan doesn't need to soak international phone users to collect dollars.
-- Ed Sachs
Correct. And the same thing exists here in the US, on an even larger scale overall... it's called origination and termination charges, the fees that the long-distance carriers must pay to the local phone companies to originate and terminate calls. But don't get me started...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The vote was 31-9, with 2 members abstaining. I thought the vote would be closer than that. Ratification by the rank and file should be closer, but it'll go through.
NUKE the executive board. Four CED reps were barred from negotiations. Vote NO on ratification....send a message to the rats that the bannana boat is in port to take em all back to the islands.
Shut Up, Shut up bloomy, Shut Up, Shut Up bloomy.
Twenty five cents an hour bonus....Plantation Wages!
Upon entering a downtown 3 today at Penn Station, a slurry conductor announced that the next stop was Times Square. He didn't correct himself and a number of passengers, probably tourists, looked around in confusion and got off the train.
Welcome back, guys.
Returns?? It never left.
>>>....a slurry conductor announced .....<<<
What's a slurry conductor?
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe a conductor who slurrs.
This also happened after the 1999 contract agreement. Conductors routinely kept doors open at express stations while another train entered, only to close the doors after people who wanted to x-fer got off the opposite train. And I can't even begin to count the number of times TA employess responded to requests for information with a terse "I don't know, go look at a map".
It'll pass, by mid January.
I'm not willing to accept this conspiracy theory, but, for the record, I did notice an unusually large number of missed connections today, including many at 96th on the 1/2/3/9, where connections are critical.
I doubt a conspiracy, just individuals attempting to take their frustrations on riders.
I doubt a conspiracy, just individuals attempting to take their frustrations out on riders.
No, that's getting banged around in the doors. :)
Guess what?
The conductors are human beings and make mistakes too. Maybe he didn't even realize he made a mistake.
Haven't YOU ever made a mistake and not corrected it until it was too late -- or not at all?
I on't get too biblical and say "Let him without sin cast the first stone". But *I* have mis-announced things ont he bus I drive, and about three blocks down the line realize it after it's too late.
I've done this a few times. Once in a while you forget where you're going.
Some of my blunders as a Conductor include:
1. Announcing stops in the wrong direction, as you described. Usually I caught and corrected myself, but I'm sure there have been times I didn't.
3. The 'Blonde Moments'. You know the next stop, but when you get to "The next stop is" you forget.
3. My personal Favorite:
Announcing similar stops from other lines, examples:
"This is Beford Avenue. This is a Broadway Junction bound L train, the next stop is Classon Avenue..."
"This is Grant Avenue. Manhattan bound A train, the next stop is Elmhurst Avenue..."
"This is 42nd Street, transfer... Queens bound A train the next stop is 49th Street."
To name a few of my blunders.
Does this mean I'm an idiot. Nope, I just screwed up.
And in particular you'll hear this from the XL and XXL guys, because they hit every line. And in the B division that leads to a lot of errors.
My biggest blunder was when I was a C/R on the downtown R train. At 28th Street, I stated that it was an L train to Canarsie.
Don't ask me why. I hadn't worked the L in months.
BTW, I've screwed up the stops more than I could count thanks to "zoning out".
(My biggest blunder was when I was a C/R on the downtown R train. At 28th Street, I stated that it was an L train to Canarsie. Don't ask me why. I hadn't worked the L in months.)
I know what you mean. I've been with the TA for nearly two years now. But every now and then, when I'm distracted, I still answer the phone "City Planning." Then again, sometimes at home I answer the phone "Transit Authority."
Perhaps those automated announcements aren't so bad. But they should have used real NYCT transit workers to record them, instead of folks who sound like they are from out of town.
Perhaps those automated announcements aren't so bad. But they should have used real NYCT transit workers to record them, instead of folks who sound like they are from out of town.
I thought I was the only one who felt that way.
"Thank you fer ridin' wit' MTA New Yawk C'ty Transit."
No, they should have used actual celebrities, like in the taxis.
I nominate Robert DeNiro for "Stand clear of the closing doors, please." Don't think anyone'd want to screw with him. :)
I nominate Robert DeNiro for "Stand clear of the closing doors, please." Don't think anyone'd want to screw with him. :)They'd be damn sure to get out of the doors.
one of the Yankees can be the announcer for the 4 line
This afternoon, I was on a 9 train that pulled into 96th, and the C/R started making the announcement for 72nd before apologizing and correcting himself.
But he had just been through a bit of stress. At 79th, seemingly an entire school was standing on the platform, and nobody decided to get on until the C/R started closing up. Between 86th and 96th, he reminded us that all 30 doors open at each station and urged us to use them.
So I'm willing to cut him some slack. (Not that he needs it -- he did catch his error in time.)
Many years ago, I was on a Red Line train (Washington, DC) going towards Wheaton (Glenmont had not opened yet). After leaving Friendship Heights, the operator, who I found not to be one of the best over the times I got her train, announced "Next station, Takoma". She corrected herself almost immediately by saying "Correction, next station Tenleytown and the American University", but I found it rather funny since:
1. Takoma and Tenleytown are nowhere near each other
2. Takoma is a surface station located in the middle of the CSX ROW, Tenleytown is an underground station on one of the deeper parts of the system
I figure she just knew the next station was one starting with a T but announced the wrong one. Then again, Twinbrook is the only other one besides Takoma and Tenleytown. If this is possible on a system run with ATO, this operator's train tended to be rather late, crowded, and she didn't do a very good job getting people to move into the center of the cars.
I was wondering if anyone could give me a list of what was removed, and what was just refurbished, during the overhaul's of the R26-R36's. Were the side doors removed, or was the steel lining around the windows, just put over the old? Any info. would be appreciated. -Ben
Per chance was a SubTalker the C/R on an R-38 southbound A this morning that stationed at Columbus Circle at 6:20am?
His announcements were superb. Among the best I've ever heard. Clear and concise. Full of useful information for both regular commuters and tourists. If you're here, take a bow.
Write a recommendation to TA. Just a while ago, I heard about some C/R on the 3 annoucing the wrong stop. Strange world.......
Unfortunately the Ambassador program isn't too well publicized but it exists for people like this. Unfortunately I don't have contact info (I was never a candidate anyway :-P ) but I'm sure Customer Service (718-330-1234) can help you or point you in the right way. Or ask Train Man Paul, he's received the award as well (he may be one of our AWOL bunch though).
Unfortunately I think you will need more than the time and location, as it could have been an extra person and you may be commending somoen who is the exact opposite.
If you hear this C/R again, get his name and badge/pass number and be sure to tell him why.
I was riding at the STORMFAN WINDOW of course, so when I got off at Penn Station (with suitcase in tow as I was heading back to Boston), I waited on the platform to see if I recognized him. Alas, the R-38s were zooming by at that point, and I only got a brief glimpse -- but did not recognize him.
Even if he is an extra, won't they know that he made the trip?
Customer Service wouldn't, and they won't go through the trouble to look up who it was. Railroads get screwed up, trains run late. Even more digging. So was that the 0524 LEF? the 0514 FAR running hot? (Both scheduled to arrive at 59 somewhere around 6:20). I'd venture a guess at the 0524 LEF (due at 59 at 0618), the 0514 FAR is due there at 5:29, but at that time of the day could be running 5 minutes hot. So the best would be if he knew it was out of Lefferts call in for the 0524, and out of The Rock, call in the 0514.
It was definitely a Far Rockaway train. I check the sign, and the C/R announced it often. I recall we arrived at 34th street at exactly 0623.
OK it looks like the 0553 207/FAR. Excuse the earlier incorrect times. Maybe you can get somewhere with CS with that info.
In another thread, Todd Glickman wrote:
Even though Shadow/Metro Traffic is reporting on WCBS and WINS that "Transit is on or close...," uptown 8th Ave. IND services are bypassing 42nd Street due to a police action.
This reminded me that, a few years ago, I brought up the question of why radio traffic/transit reports so rarely give meaningful tranist updates. (See the thread here.) Mr. Glickman responded to that post, pointing out that both WCBS and WINS contract with Shadow Traffic for their reports. He continued:
For transit information to get on-the-air, first the Shadow reporter (whether in the copter or in the studio) must know about it. For this, they rely on the TA to pass along the information (and occasionally listers).
My question is: why doesn't Shadow permanently station someone at MTA headquarters? If they did this, they would know immediately about anything the MTA itself knows about.
Mr. Glickman said:
But the limiting factor is that the reporters have one minute maximum, and sometimes less, to give EVERYTHING, including the traffic report over a large three-state metropolitan area.
Yes, this explains why transit is sometimes not mentioned at all.
But, I am not really complaining so much about the complete ommission of transit; I am complaining about that "on or close to schedule" business at times when it is clearly inaccurate. If the IND lines are skipping 42nd St. northbound, then all trains are NOT "on or close to schedule" at that moment. And, if Shadow had a reporter at MTA headquarters, they would know about it.
I just don't understand why this crucial aspect of New York transportation is ignored, and why there isn't a dedicated "transit reporter" at Shadow.
Of course, whether any given subway problem makes it into the next one-minute report on station WXXX is a separate question. But, Mr. Glickman points out that "[f]or transit information to get on-the-air, first the Shadow reporter...must know about it"; so, it would seem that having a transit reporter stationed at the MTA is essential.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ferdinand, that's a great idea (of course it costs money -- a consideration for Shadow/Metro). Perhaps when the new command center is operational, something like that will happen. Or even better, maybe NYCTA will have a better way to transmit real-time system condition information directly to the Shadow and Metro operations centers.
Obviously, Todd can comment with much more authority, but I think a big part of the decision of what to report in that one minute has to do with (a) reporting things that have a lengthy impact on the commute and (b) things that are out of the ordinary.
In the example you gave, northbound trains skipping 42nd during the rush hour is out of the ordinary, but it isn't a particularly lengthy delay -- maybe 10 minutes for any one passenger.
I recently changed jobs and now drive 40 miles to work each way. (I hope this doesn't get me tossed of SubTalk). One thing I noticed is that there are certain choke points on the roads which are heavily congested throughout the rush hour every day. These delays also tend to go un-reported on the traffic reports. The regulars expect them, so why bother reporting it.
The places where traffic reports have been most helpful is where you have (a) and (b) from above in a situation where you have a possible alternate route. If you don't have those three things, then it's just another radio voice telling you something that you can't do anything about.
Charles wrote:
...I think a big part of the decision of what to report in that one minute has to do with (a) reporting things that have a lengthy impact on the commute and (b) things that are out of the ordinary. In the example you gave, northbound trains skipping 42nd during the rush hour is out of the ordinary, but it isn't a particularly lengthy delay -- maybe 10 minutes for any one passenger.
Well, it is true that a 10-minute delay is pretty minor, especially compared to one-hour delays at the bridges for motorists.
However, I was listening to this wonderful clip from the old radio station 99X (WXLO) from 1978. (The station is at 98.7, and, since 1982 or so, has been WRKS/Kiss-FM.) Charlie Steiner (now of ESPN) was the newscaster on Jay Thomas's morning program.
This is before the days of Shadow; presumably each station had its own sources. Steiner always led off the news segment with the "traffic and transit" report, and here is what he reported this day:
"Long Island Rail Road reporting the 7:11 from Far Rock, due into Penn Station at 8:03, eleven minutes behind schedule. Southbound West Side Highway bumper-to-bumper..."
Click here to hear the clip. Steiner's newscast begins at 7:30 into the clip.
Steiner led this report with the announcement of ONE LIRR train that was 11 minutes late! THEN he went on to list the traffic problems on the West Side Highway, at the Lincoln Tunnell, the GWB, the Harlem River Drive, and an accident on the Deegan.
So, yes, transit backups can come and go, sometimes within the space of a quarter-hour. But, that isn't really a reason to ignore them. On news stations, the traffic reports come every 10 minutes. A mention of a problem such as the IND-skipping-42nd-Street problem would have been very useful to thousands in that particular report, even if it would have been old news by the time the next report came around. Remember that Steiner's newscast as once an HOUR, yet he mentioned the LIRR delay.
It seems to me that information of this sort should really be available on the radio today. Traffic/transit reports should have room for mention of items of transit items of the calibre of the one that Steiner reported, like Mr. Glickman's example of the uptown IND trains skipping 42nd St. Other examples would be:
downtown F trains running on the A line from W4th to Jay St.
all no. 7 trains running local
delays on the E and F lines; use the V instead (this is modelled on the frequent traffic report items advising commuters to use the Holland Tunnel rather than the Lincoln Tunnel, the Northern State rather than the LIE, etc.)
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- About the clip: It is from a site called New York Radio News, by Martin Hardee. According to the site, Hardee produced a documentary about radio news in New York for the University of Florida School of Journalism and Communications back in 1978. He has made some of the segments available on the web. Right now, there are sections for eight different stations on the site. (The site has a page with the WCBS segment, on which I would bet that Mr. Glickman can be heard. However, I must admit that I haven't listened to the WCBS clip yet.)
Because, for the most part, it is very hard to receive radio broadcasts in the subways. Chances are that most problems have cleared up by the time anyone hearing them on the radio actually gets there. Those that are already there, can't hear the broadcast, so, why bother.
is not mentioned once. The is no change in OPTO it is coming to a line near you.
What I don't understand is why the average T/O is afraid implimentating OPTO systemwide.
If T/O would demand as part of the contract to have T/O on the planning commitee it would stand a chance that the concerns of the T/O would be adressed in the implimnetation. Best case senario OPTO could be implimented systemwide in 10 years.
Standard union intransigence--look how long there were 'firemen' on diesels. Safety issues aside(see previous coments by many on OPTO implementatin worldwide) it boils down to job protectin fitsst last and always. Look back at the bitter comments by "chicago motorman" regardin OPTO on CTA (which pioneered the concept in the mid fifties on the Evanston Line--Purple). That was an instance where the workers agreed to OPRO retaining frequent headways rather than insisting on two man and halving the service.
TWU can try any holding action they wish, but OPRO WILL happen.
Been on a human staffed elevator recently?
Been on a human staffed elevator recently?
Well, uh, there are a couple of deep subway stations in New York ...
yes, and in Sacremento the elevators in the State Capitol are staffed so the legislative slugs don't have to push buttons for themselves, but we have both underlined the point; its a rarity.
5 man train crews were mandated by Federal regulations. After de-regulation the crew size collapsed fairly quickly into the two man crews we see today.
It wasn't quite that simple. The Florida East Coast had a long and violent strike in the early/mid 1960's which was eventually won by management, resulting in the two man crew. Union voilence (blowing up bridges, removing rail sections) led to the company's successful petition to terminate money-losing passenger service, citing potential danger to passengers. Management ran one freight train in each direction between Jacksonville and Miami every day, and with deferred maintenance, showed substantial profits.
I did a double-take driving down Route 1 one afternoon when I saw a brand new Chrysler running down the track in Coral Gables. The FEC ran one train per week to Homestead, and the high-wheeled Chrysler ran interference, looking for missing rail, bridges, &c.
Nah, that was just BMTman when he went on vacation. :)
Full OPTO implementation would be impractical unless CBTC technology accompanied it. OPTO increases dwell times and currently no rolling stock is equiped to close an entire full length A or B division trainset from one location.
It makes more sense on lightly used lines or during off hours.
By the time any CCTV based OPTO implimenteation could be installed and tested the TA will have quite a few trains that will be CBTC equipted or capable.
Triains would needed to be mechanically altered to utilize OPTO on full length trains any way you look at it. For one both controls for booth sides of the train would need to be moved to allow the T?O to control doors from his current control system
Like I said the technology exist to impliment such a system. Dwell times would not be effectd if the T/O does not need to get out of his seat
A few weeks ago someone posted a message stating that there were temporary lights strung up at Worth Street and that there was construction material on the platform.
Has anyone passed the station recently? Any change? Any idea what's going on, if anything?
the lights are still there but theres no activity currently
An interesting article on "The Five Points" in the 19th Century, an area encompassing the present day court area and Chinatown: http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/movies/ny-p2cover3050548dec19,0,6220333.story?coll=ny%2Dentertainment%2Dheadlines
The new epic movie, "The Gangs of New York" will be a movie that I'm sure 'marty' will appreciate (or other 'ghetto foamers').
Its about NYC then why was it filmed in Italy?
Because you'd have to come to Troy, NY (as many motion picture crews have had to do lately) to get that "feel" of turn of the last century NYC ... and Bruno's upped the ante. It's cheaper to shoot in sunny Italy. :)
There's not much left of Manhattan of the 1860s, and virtually nothing of the Five Points, so Scorsese had to re-create it at Cinecitta Studios in Rome. (You would think that filming it at one of those huge Hollywood backlots would have been cheaper.)
["You would think that filming it at one of those huge Hollywood backlots would have been cheaper"]
If they could build a whole el in Hollywood like they did in Hello Dolly they could build anything! (Mentioned the el to bring the thread on topic!)
>>> You would think that filming it at one of those huge Hollywood backlots would have been cheaper <<<
Wow, you are behind the times. The huge Hollywood back lots went out with Lo-Vs and Standards. They are now things like Century City (20th Century Fox), housing tracts (MGM), tourist attractions (Universal), or industrial parks (RKO/Paramount). Warner Bros. with about 20 acres is about the largest one still in existence, used mainly for TV production.
Tom
Based on some rough guesses as to how many trains run each week and how many token booths there are, I come out with estimates that of the 34,000 transit workers, about 2000 are C/Rs and 4000 are S/As.
Does anyone know if those numbers are in the right ballpark? If so, it indicates that the savings for 100% OPTO and even for reducing S/As, while significant, are not that huge.
(Based on some rough guesses as to how many trains run each week and how many token booths there are, I come out with estimates that of the 34,000 transit workers, about 2000 are C/Rs and 4000 are S/As. Does anyone know if those numbers are in the right ballpark? If so, it indicates that the savings for 100% OPTO and even for reducing S/As, while significant, are not that huge.)
First of all, the 34,000 that has been in the press is wrong. It doesn't include all the employees supported by the capital plan, which includes 3,000 in CPM alone, and several thousand more in the operating departments. This includes flaggers, work train drivers, and those doing in-house construction. In many capital contracts, the TA actually hires itself, especially for track work. Ironically, this incorrect figures was included in the U.S. Census Bureau's Census of Governments.
The latest "Facts and Figures" book I have is from my first tenure at the TA, back in 1986. Maybe they don't give them out anymore. But it had, as I recall (I keep it at work), less than 3,500 conductors and somewhat more T/Os. I'd love to see employment by title today, if anyone has it.
I can’t help but think that there’s a lot of room there for cost-cutting elsewhere.
Let’s see: 2000 CRs, 4000 SAs, say about 2000 TOs, and allow 3000 for maintenance. That’s 11,000 people out of 34,000. What do the rest do?
(Let’s see: 2000 CRs, 4000 SAs, say about 2000 TOs, and allow 3000 for maintenance. That’s 11,000 people out of 34,000. What do the rest do?)
You forgot the whole bus system, all the signal operators, and everyone maintaining the right of way. Not to mention all the support staff. As I recall, MOW is the biggest group.
The total number of NYCT employees is in the neighborhood of 45,000. The 34,000 figure supposedly covers those represented by TWU; I don't know whether it's accurate.
David
3200ish C/R
Under a new law you can face the same charges for hitting a MTA T/O or Conductor as you would for hitting a Police Officer or a Fire fighter. I saw this on a 4 train
BTW in the citigroup center there is a model railroad exhibit
u can bring the kids if you want to.
More info!
also for bus operators. NYCT under the new contract, will ask for the same law to be extended to include CTAs, Station Agents, and all Front-line employees.
>>> NYCT under the new contract, will ask for the same law to be extended to include CTAs, Station Agents, and all Front-line employees. <<<
Here in Los Angeles the protection is extended to passengers also. Why didn't New York think of them too?
Tom
What I don't get is why there should be a need for the law. When I worked for the state as a techie and paper shover, *I* was protected by the "full force of the law" if I was confronted or assaulted IN PERFORMANCE OF GOVERNMENT DUTIES ... that "public officer's law" bit should have been enforced ALL ALONG ... "it's already in there."
Now if it was a CHICKEN INSPECTOR, it'd be death penalty stuff.
Just today a C/R on a S/B #6 was spit on at Spring Street during the PM Rush. The guy who did it was cought by the TSS at Brooklyn Bridge where he held him until Police arrived.
Hallelujah. It *is* assault on a public officer. And if the person is infected with a disease, it should be considered attempted murder. Sorry for the harshness to outsiders, but pull that nonsense up here with a federal or state worker and your arse WILL be handed to you. Should be the same in the city, I'm AMAZED that it isn't. You might as well walk up to a cop and do that, law is the same, and so is the punishment elsewhere.
[Under a new law you can face the same charges for hitting a MTA T/O or Conductor as you would for hitting a Police Officer or a Fire fighter. I saw this on a 4 train.]
I've always wondered about that law...
1. Does it apply at all times, or only when the person in question is on duty?
2. Does it apply even in self-defense?
As an extreme example: A police officer (or train operator, etc.) hits his wife. Can she be arrested for fighting back (which involves hitting a person who holds a protected title)?
Nope ... fat chance ... beating your lover is grounds for tombs time. The "public officer's law" ONLY protects civil service employees "while in performance of their official duties" ... pi$$ on a conductor DELIBERATELY, INTERFERE with a conductor while trying to close the doors, beat up a state employee "on the clock" and whoever is STUPID enough to do so can do 10 years or more. That's the law.
When OFF-DUTY though, you're on your own. Same holds for Police officers OFF-DUTY though there are allowances when they "clock in" as a cop in the event of criminal activity in their FACE. That TOO is the law.
So STOP beating your wife. :)
And OH YES, you can have a CO-WORKER arrested if they strike you as well. But THERE it gets dicier ... but if the SUBJECTS of the law strike you, assault or threaten you in ANY way, you can make them "instant toast" depending on the District Attorney's willingness to pursue. And yes, by law of our lawgivers, every NON Civil servant is a "subject" and every MINOR under the age of 18 (17 for females in NYS) is called "ISSUE" ... for those who don't give a qwap about politics, those who SERVE as minions of our lawgivers (including that STATION AGENT) can eat you for lunch and laugh at the challenge. So says our lawgivers. Screw with a public employee, and woe be ye.
Can't believe it doesn't get enforced in NYC ... sure does up HERE.
Ladies and Gentleman,
For those of you opposing OPTO, and answer sincerly now.
Do you use "EASYZ PASS" on your vehicle(s)???
Do you use an "ATM"???
Both were personed full time positions of employment, no machines.
Think about it.
Yes, I do use "EasyZ Pass", discount & quicker passage thru.
No, I have not or ever attempted to use an "ATM", still deal
with lines and live persons at my bank. Thus far, they haven't
instituted charges for dealing with a "Teller".
If this topic has been posted previously,
pardon the excessive rhetoric,
I'm just not into reading all the posts.
;-) Sparky
As a matter of fact I shun the self-scanner at the supermarket in favor of the regular checkout line. Those high school kids and senior citizens need jobs too! This should drive voiceofreason wild. I'm probably the reason prices are high at Waldbaums.
I also stand on line at Penn Station to buy a LIRR ticket from the ticket seller INSTEAD of using the vending machine. Gotta keep those clerks working.
The Mrs. is a Metro~North reverse commuter and uses the ticket
window at GCT. But she has special needs, that I do not know
if the machine will handle. Yet, without offense to station
agents, you can not buy a "Fun Pass" from them. Gotta use the
machine or out of system. For Metro Card, she is eligible for
mail 'n ride, no offense to S/A but monthly statements of usage
and auto refills with a qualifying C/C. Somethings are inevitable,
but must be done by attrition. Just remember, Streetcars were
two person operations a century ago. >G<
;-) Sparky
>>Just remember, Streetcars were
two person operations a century ago.<<
NO, 44 years ago. CTA's 22 Clark Wentworth, the last streetcar line closed up in 1957. One of the reasons cited at the time was woeker unwillingness to lose the C/R jobs on these three door PCC's. The buses were of course OPTO.
Feb 1958 was the end.
Some thoughts--
How could a bus, even in Chicago, be "OPTO"?
When did Fifth Avenue Coach get rid of the conductors on its buses?
Didn't New York subways have a second conductor on ten-car trains until sometime in the early fifties? And didn't gate cars on the elevated lines have a conductor between each two cars?
How many transit jobs were lost when the Saturday morning rush hour was eliminated?
Don't forget all the high school and college kids who lost summer job opportunities when office buildings went to those newfangled automatic elevators.
We all have mixed feelings about change--we get used to things and may be uncomfortable when they change, but we may adjust to them. I'm sure conductors were happy to have door controls moved inside the cars. I don't think many people give a second thought to riding an airport train with no operator or seeing a BART train attendant facing back into the car talking to someone as the train accelerates to over 60 mph. With New York's version of OPTO (as well as Chicago's), is it really necessary to block off so much space in the front of a train--taking away seats, standing room, and a railfan window? Philadelphia's OPTO works quite well with a standard-size cab and a TV monitor and several riders have seats and we keep railfan windows. I think one of the few BMT mistakes was closing off the front of the end units on the Multi-Section cars--it was obviously for one-person operation, but that was never implemented.
Problems arise when change for the sake of change occurs--did Chicago have to drop tokens completely? Should New York? Or when an edict is issued without any real thought. Remember when one-time Mayor Robert Wagner, in a crime-fighting effort, declared that the rear two doors of every subway train were to be locked off after 10:00 or so at night around 1963 or 1964--that was fine on a ten-car 'A' train, but those of us on four-car Fourth Avenue Locals were close to suffocated on those two-car 60-footers.
Just some thoughts.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Forget OPTO. How about all those conductors on the LIRR and Metro North. Some REAL savings there.
You could go to Metocard -- just have entry and exit swipes at stations other than GCT and Penn, and assume people are going to Manhattan on pay per ride cards, refunding the balance if they are not. That gets around the crowding at the terminals issue. CCTV could catch those ducking the turnstiles on film -- they could be tracked down at the next station and fined up the wazoo.
Heck, the last couple of times I've ridden has been on the weekend, when the station ticket counter was closed. I was going to buy a ticket on the train, but no one showed up to sell me one. If they had a Metrocard machine, I would have paid.
YES!!! MN and LI two person operation and automated fare control could save millions. *MBTA should do the same.
Good idea. One minor issue:
MNRR conductors, when they punch a ticket, can help people who are on the wrong train from going any further astray than they already are. I have often heard them say this train doesn't stop where you're going, do such and such. I assume LIRR conductors do even more of that because it's a more complicated system.
"Fifth Ave Coach, I don't know
IIRC there were 'extra' conductors on ELEVEN car trains on Queens Blvd, but I have no direct knowledge. Maybe Larry Redbird 33 might know, or perhaps Paul Matus or others who were there then (I was growing up in DC and spending summers in Chicago)
one person TRANSIT operation" giggle, chuckle.
the gate car example is spot on. So now we have another step. Kinda like moving from 8 in floppies to 5.25's
And didn't gate cars on the elevated lines have a conductor between each two cars?
A six car gate train had five gatemen besides the motorman!
>>>>And didn't gate cars on the elevated lines have a conductor between each two cars?<<<<
...}A six car gate train had five gatemen besides the motorman!{...
Karl,
Wasn't one of the five gateman, the conductor besides a motorman?
That would be four gateman, a conductor and a motorman per train.
Usually in the car with motorman? On MN & LIRR, it's a conductor
per train, motorperson and assistant conductors. And the conductor
is in charge of all movements, even though they don't make them.
;-) Sparky
Sparky, I think all of the gatemen were technically conductors. You're right though, there was one senior conductor, and his position always seemed to be between cars one and two.
Thanks Karl,
You are more familiar with the gate cars then I and could not think of
the exact job title. Well, if it were Beantown, then they all would
be guards.
;-) Sparky
>>> there was one senior conductor, and his position always seemed to be between cars one and two. <<<
That makes sense since the conductor was responsible to give the motorman the signal to go, and the way they closed up was from the rear with each assistant conductor pulling the bell cord to let the one ahead know he was closed, and finally the conductor pulling the cord in the first car to let the motorman know the whole train was closed and he could proceed.
Tom
Listening to the bells being passed forward on a five or a six car train used to be music to my ears, especially when I was standing on a side platform, opposite the train.
Sounds that will never be heard again!
When did Fifth Avenue Coach get rid of the conductors on its buses?
1947, when the last of the open roof double deckers was retired.
The closed double deckers were OPTO.
I'm sure at the time that the drivers were also did not want to be alone on the bus by themselves. But over time it became accepted
>>>The closed double deckers were OPTO. <<<
Wouldn't that be OPBO. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
did Chicago have to drop tokens completely? Should New York?
Tokens are interesting.
For the TA they are like the ability to MINT MONEY.
And they keep the value of the token in their bank account until you drop the coin back into the turnstyle.
Well MetroCards do the same thing financially... so no deal.
The deal was when the fare went to 15c, and people could not drop a dime any more. Coin machines were rudimentary and could not handle multiples of coin, or give change. So a token was the way to go.
One draw back of a token (Especially that dumb one that was the EXACT SAME SIZE as an electric box knock-out) was that counterfiet was theft of service and not counterfieting. So only a misdemeanor theaft of service. Drop a slug on the PATH and you are up on federal charges!
But the token is reaching the end of its days, and soon too the token booth.
According to me, stations need a well lighted office, with a helpful agent on duty, to give directions, monitor security devices, attend to malfunctioning equipment, supervice the security of clean restrooms, etc... but all financial transactions are handled by machines.
Elias
Funny, you should mention the self scanners at Super Markets,
haven't run into them in the stores we patronize the most.
Prices are competitive at "Shop-Rite" in Ulster County.
Also it's the closest to drive to.
When in Brooklyn, where we walk to the Super Market, it's
either Key Food a/o Associated. But the A in Greenpoint, does
carry many goods cathering to the Eastern European populus of
the neighborhood. No self scanners at either store. Many
Mom & Pop Butchers, Delis, Restaurants and yes now Bakery's
also.
Yet, when we vacation in Maine and use Hannford's vs Shaws,
competitively priced, it's a rare occasion, that there are
not two persons at the check-out. Cashier & Bagger. >Go Figure<
;-) Sparky
Teh only self scanner's I know if in brooklyn are at the Pathmark on AVE Y and Nostrand Ave. Unlike the MVM's pathmark needs to design the self scanner area better.
two registers were replaced by 4 self scanning terminals with one attendent monitoring the area
The Pathmark in Starrett City have self scanners as well. I preferred them over the "express" line.
The Pathmark in Starrett City have self scanners as well. I prefer them over the "express" line.
No, I have not or ever attempted to use an "ATM", still deal
with lines and live persons at my bank.
Funny thing is you deal with long lines someplaces at the ATM too even during banking hours.
No, I have not or ever attempted to use an "ATM", still deal
with lines and live persons at my bank. Thus far, they haven't
instituted charges for dealing with a "Teller".
Charges for dealing with a "live" teller may not be too far off!
>>>"Charges for dealing with a "live" teller may not be too far off!"<<<
I concur with you there Karl, it's just that it is going to be a
tough sell to the Seasoned users of the "Greenpoint Bank", even
though it's not a "Savings Bank" anymore, but your dealing with
an institution in the 'hood. Branch #1. It may happen in some branches,
but not all outright. Time will tell.
;-) Sparky
It was just six months ago that our bank here stopped sending back our cancelled checks with our monthly statements. We can get photocopies of the checks for a fee, but we can absolutely not have our cancelled checks returned. It is apparently cheaper to destroy them than to return them to the customer.
There seems to be a fee for everything, but they still say that banking is the poorest paid occupation.
It is apparently cheaper to destroy them than to return them to the customer.
Absolutely. Even assuming that you can return all the checks you write in one month along with your statement, without adding additional postage (pretty darned unlikely), there is still the cost of handling the checks, ensuring that you get yours and only yours, etc. I remember that, as recently as the late '60s, my bank charged me 10¢ for every check I wrote... even had the fee pre-printed in the check register. (And that was when first-class postage was 6¢.)
But how many times have I ever needed to have my cancelled check? In nearly forty years of check-writing, no more than a half-dozen times. So having to ask for a copy (and even pay a buck or two for it) isn't a big deal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've dealt with my bank ever since I have lived here.
At least six times in all of those years they have posted a cashed check for more than I wrote it. Each time they made an error. The next time this happens I will have no way of proving whether they were wrong or I was wrong. I hope this problem does not come up again. It's no big deal if it is a few cents, but if it becomes a substantial amount of dollars then I will mind.
Only once have I ever had to deal with an error on the bank's part. All the other times were when I needed to prove I had paid a bill - medical bill at least twice, don't remember the others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
New York State Income Tax requires copies of front and back of the check if you insist that you sent a check and they cashed it.
I had to pay $10 to get the back copy of the check (front is free) in order to PROVE to the state I paid em.
They would not accept the copy of the front of the check.
The laws have changed though, big clearing houses no longer send back the check, they image it and destory it. Physically sending it back was a huge cost to them as well as the bank to resort it and get it to you each month.
There's another service, that's going to be missed. Returned
checks, which my bank still does, except the one's payable to
them, they're never returned. I think, we are living in a time
warp, with many services, that are gone in other areas, reading
these replies. I know my bank pushes all the new fangled gizmos,
etc., but try selling that to the silver haired set. Also am
amazed at the various customers, who are on the lines at the bank,
whom you know are non-residents of the neighborhood.
;-) Sparky
Remember when you could get a teller's or a cashier's check, and there was no charge for it?
>>>"Remember when you could get a teller's or a cashier's check, and there was no charge for it?"<<<
Probally yes, but not 100% sure. Do remember getting checks certified at no charge.
Also remember 15 cents money orders purchased at the "Savings Bank", prior to there issuing checking accounts etc. When you had to go to a business bank to get a checking account and pay a per check fee.
It's nice reminiscing, but back then did you think we would be having
such chatter electronically?
;-) Sparky
>>> The laws have changed though, big clearing houses no longer send back the check, they image it and destory it. <<<
The law was the misleadingly named "Bank Secrecy Act." Prior to that law, banks routinely returned your checks to you without making copies, and that was the end of it. The law required that banks keep copies of all checks (so the government could examine your check transactions). Since banks were required to make copies before returning the checks, the idea of saving costs by not returning the checks was born.
Tom
My only concerns with OPTO are time and safety, not the reduction in jobs. No one will be laid off; it'll happen by attrition.
I love EZPass because it saves me time.
OPTO has to be done well so that dwell times don't increase and so that if someone gets their foot stuck in the door they don't get dragged off into the tunnel wall.
>>> OPTO has to be done well so that dwell times don't increase <<<
Why is that? No one complains about the increased dwell time for buses without conductors. An increase in operating speed would offset a minor increase in dwell time. But then again, no one has complained about the increase in travel time due to the slowing of the operating speed, why will they complain about an increase in dwell time?
Tom
On the contrary, people *do* complain about increased dwell time for buses. But maybe that is because one-person operation of buses is a more recent thing in England than in the USA. It is one of the reasons why some buses in Central London still have conductors.
Not to mention the fact theat people jump on and off those roving red castles while they are moving by a rear door that has no door.
Trust the British to build a better bus!
Elias
>>> Not to mention the fact theat people jump on and off those roving red castles while they are moving by a rear door that has no door <<<
I know what that is like, I tried to board a double decker with a back porch in Berlin just as the driver started up. I found myself hanging on to the bar in a horizontal position until I let go and fell to the pavement. I couldn't help but think of the comic strips that had Dagwood Bumstead hanging on to the back of the bus while going to his job. (Probably only the older Subtalkers will remember those images.)
Tom
>>> people *do* complain about increased dwell time for buses. <<<
Yes, I lived in Europe at a time when all buses and trams had conductors and I appreciated the quicker travel, but I was referring mainly to Subtalkers who have accepted one person bus operation without complaint, but think it would be intolerable for subways.
Tom
I think a more germane question would be when was the last time you used a self-service elevator.
>>>"I think a more germane question would be when was the last time you used a self-service elevator"<<<
I think you meant person operated elevator. I remember those
at Abraham & Strauss in Brooklyn, with the gentleman and the
ladies at Gimbel's & Macy's in the city.
;-) Sparky
There was one time when my bank bounced two checks on me on the same statement. The only problem was that neither check was mine and neither check was drawn on my bank.
The local bank manager said that it would be a simple matter to correct.
After a month of trying the bank manager said that it was impossible to go up the chain of command any further. I asked what to do and said that I wanted the name of the highest officials of the bank.
I was given the name of the President of the Bank and the name of the Chairman of the Board. I sent letters to each one of them. The matter was settled in a few days.
The point? I want my checks - not some midget page copy of my checks.
My Employer just changed servers and has just determined that Subtalk it not a place I should be spending my time during working hours - so they have it lableled it a restricted site. This happened once before for about 6 monthes (the funny thing is that neither NYCSubway Resources, nor BuSTalk , The yahoo LIRR Forum or the Other Side of the Tracks message Boards are restricteed). I must have been generating too much bandwith during the workday. We'll I guess I'll be posting a lot more in the evening that during the day!
I'll have to blame this on American Pig since he was the one who started these statistice :-)
I've been out of the workforce for a few years now, but I am amazed at how many of you seem to be able to read and post to SubTalk from your jobs.
It wasn't that many years ago when I thought I had it bad because I was encouraged to wait till lunch hour for a bathroom break.
LMAO!!
It's the Subtalk drug... You can't get enough of it. :-)
I wish I had the time to llok over each message but the net is to slow. I would like a system where I can download all the new messages for that day and browse them offline.
LOL 8-)! Once you join, you don't want to stay away for a long time, you MUST be there every day or you miss out on some things. BTW, I'm not suggesting you guys go every single day but when you miss a day, boy does it throw you off trying to catch up.
Unfortunately, it is like a drug, and addictive.
And like you said the time needed to catch up if I haven't been here for a while is staggering, especially since I use dial-up.
ANd I don't post here because I want to make "Pig's List", believe me, I don't even want to be on "The List".
It's just a lot of fun. I learn a lot. I never get tired of SubTalk.
I am the network administrator here, so I get decide etc. etc....
I'm also the nurse, the webmaster, the wine master, and the EMT.
But I work when if feel like it (more or less) and play when I feel like it (So how come my model train hasn't moved in months?).
I don't get paid very much, but the retirement benefits are out of this world.
: ) Elias
Wine master? Keeper of the Sacrements?? Father Bill had been serving this really sour wine, asked for contributions, I could not afford 'Harveys Bristol Creme' but his eyes lit up when i appeared with a bottle of Jerez sherry. Of course, in TA, we celibrate with 'Powermaster Fourties' and 'Wild Irish.'
LOL! Bottom's UP!
Now now me boy ... we all know the subways run on Ripple, Twister and Night Train. :)
"Wild Irish"? That brings me back to my days at the Chicago Post Office. A night-long session of consuming cheap gin would be finished off with a bottle of Wild Irish for dessert.
Once upon a time, we ran a school here, and to find venues of funding we came up with the idea of Wine. The deal with the Brookside Winery of California was that they sold wine nationaly with our lable on it, and we got a royalty which helped pay for our schools. We also filled our cellars with altar wine htat we sold to the varrious parishes. We also sold table wine locally from our own wine cellars.
Later our schools were closed, and the Brookside winery was bought out by a huge food conglomerate who cut down the vines and planted houses. We got even with them though, and cut down the schools and planted grass. (LAWNS... Kentucky Blue... Sheesh!)
Now we do business with another winery, but they do not sell wine under our lable. We print the lables here, send them down to California, and they come back with wine bottles glued to them.
The Altar wine is in one cellar, under the cafeteria building. and the table wine, which I take care of when I am not posting to SubTalk, is in the Monastery building. (The difference betwen them being the amount of TAXES collected!) (Thus the physical separation of the cellars). So when you are visiting North Dakota, stop by and I'll sell you some wine.
Elias
... I am amazed at how many of you seem to be able to read and post to SubTalk from your jobs.
Some employers are more tolerant than others, I guess. I occasionally scan selected posts during the day when I'm camped on a conference call, waiting for my turn on the agenda, but I do most of my reading and posting from home (even those threads that I do get a chance to view at work I end up glancing at a second time in the evening, simply because they're not marked as followed links on my computer at home). If I wasn't getting my work done, then it might be a different story, but my 24x7 availability is well known so my spending ten or fifteen minutes during the day on SubTalk isn't going to be an issue when I'm often on the phone for a couple of hours in the middle of the night with a business emergency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I usually post during the day while I watch large Medicare B claim files wend their way up the Web to their clearinghouse in Syracuse.
It can sometimes take 15 minutes for one batch of claims to upload.
wayne
I went tp WiFi (Sidekick) so I could get my Subfix on MetroNorth. Now if it just wouldn't go offline under Grand Central.
Bob, the 'restriction' probably has alot to do with some of the silly posts that heypaul has posted here recently. I guess your employer doesn't share in our twisted sense of humor :)
I guess your employer prefer you spend time at 'jiggles.com' than 'waste your time' at SubTalk...LOL!
me too!!! maybe our companys buy the same filtering software or we work tor the same company. i am in nj
I'm a LAN Admin - so I'll always be able to roam freely on the net. Like anything else... I think the key is to do it in moderation. My employer is pretty laid-back and don't really bother folks about going on the net. However, some people have gotten in trouble for going to porno sites. The big thing has been people downloading MP3 files. I'll let them download the files, but I don't allow anyone to store MP3 on the network. I've had people try to hide them deep in their home directories and even in shared areas.
Wayne
They won't even let us be online while I'm at...
The world's biggest store
I'd surf all day.
Surfing is a right, not a privilege.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Surfing is a right, not a privilege.
I don't know about that, especially when on a boss' time. Well, as long as I get my work done, my boss don't care. I don't get paid by the hour, so he could care less when I get my work done, as long as his bottom line, and then some is obtained. It helps that I use my own laptop also, as even when I get home I can tell what I read and didn't read (as some mentioned, it took them some extra time rereading posts) and also, I'm not using a company computer that can knock me out of any websites such as SubTalk.
I wouldn't make a good manager. Under me, you could surf all you want, and come in as late as you like--as long as your deadlines are met and your assignments are completed on time. If they weren't, then I'd crack down but good.
There shouldn't be rules and regulations for their own sake.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When we had employees here, those were the rules. And amazingly, folks would stay late if they had too much fun. When projects were completed, the folks would be handed toys by management here (video games, whatever they wanted) as a sign of appreciation for work done on or ahead of schedule. Company bar. Compare to civil service. :(
While compiling code, gave your idea a little more meat-rom time and I think I know what it is ... we're in "republican times" once again (like so many other gray, doom-filled mentality zones) and what we seem to have globally is "Blue Meanies" (ala the Beatles movie, "Yellow submarine") ... the mentality being "if someone, somewhere is having FUN, we're going to come and STOMP it. No kidding. Workplaces were allowed generally to be FUN (as long as the WORK got done) and we were slowly headed towards that good old New York mentality, "work hard, play hard, have fun" with an economy and a number of other things that contributed to life being fun.
Now we have Ashcroft, and ANYBODY suspected of enjoying their life MUST be shipped off to the regrooving center. Doom and gloom, Gloom and Doom and WOE be anybody caught having some fun. After all, happy people are PRODUCTIVE people and we just can't have THAT. :(
Good thing I work in the Transportation industry or I would have a problem too !
Just this AM one of my BusTalk friends sent me a shot of one of our buses with a Red Bird set in the background. Forwarded to my VP.
Also, actually do a little WORK on this site, mostly BusTalk, AND you'll only see me here before 9 AM, then at the end of my day.
B-U-T they know I'm a railfan/MC collector, one Christmas got the Professor Putter's book as a present < g >
Our internet use policy states the internet can be used during duty free time. Lunch is used as an example of duty free time. It also states that you can't be used for personal gain or proffit like running a business.
In any case, I use dial up on my laptop to bypass the servers, I give up a T3 for 56k but just to read msgs it ain't bad.
We were given notice at work that internet use is strictly for business purposes only. Repeat offenders will be disciplined. Consequently most of my posting is now during evenings and weekends from my new home computer. You wouldn't believe the amount of sarcasm being thrown around at work over this rule enforcement.
Jeez, they want you to use the net for work purposes only? the nerve. Surfing is a right, not a privillege.
But seriously folks. If your assignments are done on time, what's the problem? Some boss I'd make...heh...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Does the M-7 have a bar car? If so, are any photos available? -Nick
i dont think we at Metro North have even gotten the M7 yet. If i hear anything, i will let you all know.
There are no M7 bar cars.
I don't think LIRR has any bar cars. but on MNCW only a few CDOT M2's have bar cars.
soon to be re-done into minibar cars with regular seats in remaining area.
so answer is no bar cars in M-7 series.
Ok, thanks for the input. I've seen the bar cars on the MNRR New Haven Line, and those bar cars have seats, and a pole with a place for cup holders. -Nick
Are the M-2's to be scrapped in the near future, to be replaced by
M-7 or the like?
no the M-2's are New Haven cars (dual mode AC 12.5 kv 60 hz/DC 700 volt) the M-7's are for Harlem/Hudson and only run of Third rail(700 volt).
I wish...then I wouldn't have to deal with dirty cars with empty cans and bottles under the seats and the smell of bear on the floors....
I hope they pass a no alcohol rule so the M-7s don't get trashed.
"I hope they pass a no alcohol rule so the M-7s don't get trashed."
I doubt that will happen. However, in future years, MNRR should not use the M-7s if they have enough older cars to go around after Midnight on New Years Eve. -Nick
I won't try to create a link (geocities seems to give a hard time to everyone), so you'll have to cut and paste:
http://www.geocities.com/secondavenueproject/index.html
This is a project I started a few weeks ago, and its geeting near completion, so I figured I'd post it. The lighting is way overdone here. I have corrected it, but unfortunately this takes 4 hours to render, after a few moe major changes I'll post the updated render. Hope you enjoy.
Wow! That's quite an impressive station & train!
One REALLY fussy thing - on the map in the station, the 2nd Avenue Line doesn't seem to be there, which as the station modelled is 59/2 might be a good idea to add...
I'll be honest, I took the map off the MTA's site for "accuracy", yet I never even thought of adding the 2nd Avenue line. Thanks for pointing that out!
GREAT JOB.....You should be helping them design those stations.
Very impressive. What kind of software are you using?
I'm using Caligari's trueSpace 6. Its a 3D design program. 6 is the latest version, but earlier versions (up until November) of the station used version 4, with similar results. I may make a move soon to LightWave 7.5, once I've gotten better. And I plan on animating it too (when I have a nice fast PC), maybe in the form of a 'tour'.
Access to this site will be restored within an hour. Please try again later.
http://www.geocities.com/secondavenueproject/index.html
Tripod is better. Like Geocities they have a down load limit, but they average it throughout the month, not on ah hour by hour basis.
Sorry, this site is temporarily unavailable! The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer. Visit our help area for more information.
Access to this site will be restored within an hour. Please try again later.
http://www.geocities.com/secondavenueproject/index.html
Nope... Still can't get in. : (
I changed it, its now on tripod. Check the original message for a reply with the new link. Screw Geocities.
What gives? I get some error message involving going past the data tranfer limit, too many people accessing the site and waiting an HOUR before it comes available again!?
Try uploading your stuff onto a better free web server. Geocities just plain sucks.
Try uploading your stuff onto a better free web server. Geocities just plain sucks.
Thank I did, the new link is at the top of this thread. I can't wait till school fixes their webserver so I can do away with this transfer limit crap.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, due to a stalled website, we would like to redirect you to:
http://secondavenueproject.tripod.com/index.html
We apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit."
Hope this one works better.
That's sexy! ;-)
If anything, I don't like the window borders that edge the doors. Get ride of them..
About the LED display, will the bullet look like an actual colored bullet or will it remain like a LED display?
If anything, I don't like the window borders that edge the doors. Get ride of them.
Those are really just placeholders until I get the time to do them properly. Same for the windows.
About the LED display, will the bullet look like an actual colored bullet or will it remain like a LED display?
well as the Second Ave subway has yet a while to go, I envisioned it with LCD displays (Interior Info and Exterior sidesigns), that will look exactly as you see the since LCD's tend to be high res. Neat, no?
I want to replace that almost #7 purple, but believe it or not finding a color that isn't exotic that hasn't already been used it harder than it sounds.
but believe it or not finding a color that isn't exotic that hasn't already been used it harder than it sounds.
There are dumber things to do than having a look at the Paris Métro Map ("http://www.citefutee.com/orienter/plans_gif.php" then click link "Métro") - with 14 Métro and 4 RER lines, a rather good use of colors is made.
New link works swell. Images look great! Nice job.
---Brian
Nice Job! : )
Far too intensive for Geocities.
And you can still FTP to Tripod, Geo only lets paying customers do that now.
Elias
Nice. Musta took some time.
Very nice, Tony! Does this mean you favor the 2nd Avenue Line being two tracks, or do you plan to do a 4-track station design as well? -Nick
Well, I went with the current idea of 2 tracks, but 4 tracks could easily be implemented in my design with the Upper/Lower level approach. This would also hopefully discourage the Local->Express transfers that increase dwell time in so many of the busier areas. So in fact I favor the 4 track 2 level version. And maybe with 2 levels through you can reduce vibration through surrounding buildings.
"This would also hopefully discourage the Local->Express transfers that increase dwell time in so many of the busier areas"
Yeah, I definitely understand what you are talking about. I know the MTA thinks it's being nice by keeping a local or express train in a station for a few minutes, but thats not necessary and just frustrates the passengers who want the train to keep moving. Especially with the freqeuncy of trains during rush hour, a train waiting for a connection is not needed. -Nick
Really nice work! I like the station design - clean, modern and uncomplicated.
Excellent job.
WOW What a shovelnose THAT one is! You forgot to incldue the walk-through gates, or maybe it's a four-car unit like R44/46/68 with the shovelnose only at the DM end. Very nice indeed.
wayne
WOW What a shovelnose THAT one is! You forgot to incldue the walk-through gates, or maybe it's a four-car unit like R44/46/68 with the shovelnose only at the DM end. Very nice indeed.
That was the plan. With barrier springs at the slant ends to keep the blind from falling though, but it has the hideaway type like the R143. Keeps from breaking the front LCD and glass if it comes loose, and also avoiding someone loosing their head under the same circumstances.
The front rake I don't think is that much (maybe 7-10 degrees from the vertical), but the perspective does throw it off a bit.
In viewing some of the railfan window videos I notice that there are walkways on both sides of the track on the els now. I can remember a time when el tracks did not have outside walkways except at island platform stations. Between stations the trackside walkways used to be toward the center of the el structure only, and I suspect that motormen, sitting in their cabs, felt as if they were hanging in mid-air.
I assume that this was done to provide additional areas for trackworkers to get out of the way of the el trains. Is that correct?
The trackside walkways on the Els seem quite interesting to me. Perhaps your theory is correct that they were placed there so the workers have a place to get out of the way of approaching trains.
#3 West End Jeff
I can see it now:
*TOOOOOOOOOT TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT TOOT TOOT*
"Crap, jump!!!"
*The two workers jump to the street, nearly getting hit by a car*
*Train rolls by*
Maybe the two workers might go "SPLAT!!" when they hit the street if they're at the Smith & 9th Street station.
#3 West End Jeff
Walking those tracks in the old days must've been scary with no outide catwalk and an exposed third rail.
Can you imagine cutting and making up trains on the center track at 111th St on the Jamaica Line?
Two uncovered third rails on one side, and one on the other.
>>> I can remember a time when el tracks did not have outside walkways except at island platform stations. <<<
I do not seem to remember that about the Flushing line. It had outside walkways as long as I can remember. Pictures at this site show outside walkways on the 3rd Avenue El also. Are your memories of the BMT perhaps?
Tom
Yes, BMT definately!
Here's some proof to what your talking about. Taken at 88th St/Liberty in 1970:
Exactly! Thanks for the picture proof!
I believe the walkways were always there, at least on one side of the tracks. If I remember correctly, there was no outside walkway on the Jamaica bound J elevated structure (no torn down). The walkways used to be narrow wood, now they appear to be prefabrocated yellow plastic
modules much wider than the previous wood.
Yep, they were always on one side of the track, but now they seem to be on both sides of the track. The Jamaica el is a good example, and the one I was most familiar with. The same pattern could be found on the Fulton, Lexington & Myrtle els years ago.
I believe they're fiberglas. I have seen one broken, in the yard fortunately, and looked like 'Glas.
The Coney-Island bound local track of the Brighton Line between Brighton 2nd Street and Ocean Parkway didn't have an outside catwalk until the early 1970s. It would abruptly end at Brighton 2nd St. I remember watching as a kid, looking up and seeing nearly the entire underbelly of the train, asking myself why it just didn't fall down to the street. I used to think the side rails of the catwalk acted more as a guardrail that would prevent the train from falling off the track, and where one didn't exist, there'd be nothing to prevent the train from falling to the street!
--Mark
The motorman's position must have seemed like a precarious one when there were no outside walkways. I guess motormen did not suffer from a fear of heights in those days.
Heh. Not really. We really got our thrills on the BRIDGE. Now THAT was pretty high up without a parachute in the cab. :)
I'd feel a lot safer walking on one of the yellow prefab walkways than the rickety old wooden boards which often looked pretty well rotted through.
BTW, ever notice the clever pattern of ties that shift one tie left to carry the third rail, then one centered, and the third shifted right to carry the walkway?
Does every third tie support the walkway?
I don't think I ever noticed that.
It has been a lot of years since I rode the el though!
I assume that this was done to provide additional areas for trackworkers to get out of the way of the el trains. Is that correct?
Equally likely is so they have a place to work. Imagine having to work inside a signal casing (signals always on the right side, which would be to the outside of the track), having only ties to stand on.
Shivering just thinking about it.
Did anyone else bother to comment on the MTA options? Mine is below (shouldn't surprise long time Subtalkers who read my posts).
_____________________________________________________________________
This is to acknowledge receipt of your e-mail comments on the MTA financial plan options. A copy of those comments, which
will be made part of the record, appear below for your reference.
Your Comments 11/22/2002 08:36 PM
Peak hour pricing.
Raise the fare to $2.25 in the AM peak and $2.00 in the PM peak, and raise the monthly and weekly unlimited ride cards based on an assumed five AM peak and five PM peak rider per week. Eliminate senior discounts during rush hour.
Keep the off peak fare at $1.50. Have a separate one day pass for $4.00 that can be used weekdays beginning after 9:30 a.m., and weekends.
Shave rush hour trains and buses where crowding is tolerable. Do not reduce the frequency of trains at other times.
Infeasable with metrocard.
This is to acknowledge receipt of your e-mail comments on the MTA financial plan options. A copy of those comments, which will be made part of the record, appear below for your reference.
Your Comments 11/21/2002 08:01 PM
A transit fare raise to $1.75 is reasonable and prudent but, I feel the MTA has not done enough to reduce costs. Concidering contracts are now being negotiated the following staff reducetions should be implimented
1) Eliminate 40% of all token booths. Eliminate all part time booths. Close all token booths uptown on the broadway and lexinton ave local leaving one full time booth open at each station. Estimated $200 million a year savings
2) Utilize OPTO nights and on weekends. Reform work rules where neccissary. Think out of the box to develope new solutions for running OPTO on current stock of full length trains. One solution would be to install infrared and regualar camera's on the front of trians and have the train operator operate from the conductors position doing booth jobs. Utilize vison glasses currently used in circuit board manufacturing. These glass are clear lightweight and comfortable.
3)Automate bus monitoring. Utilize a simple interum solution to track buses on route. One such solution would be to utilize inexpensive 811.b wireless lan transmitters ($50 per bus) to transmitt bus location at intersections($200 per monitoring point) where bus supervisors currently are situated. The info then could be transmitted from the collection point at the intersection to the depot via telophone lines or wirelessly at a set intervalThe entire setup would cost less then $200 thousand to set up systemwide. Granted it is a far cry from the system that was preposed a few years back but it would be cheap and just as effective as the current bus monitoring method.
4) Shut of lights in fare control areas that are sealed off from the public at night. A simple motion detector can be utilized to turn off lights if motion is not detected in a half hour.
5)Institute more subscription metrocard options. Utilize EZ-pass processing center and possible have metrocard and EZ-PASS account linked.
6) Install digital camera's on the front of all buses to catch violators of bus lanes and for cars that park in bus stops. The digital footage can be uploaded via the same 811.b wireless transmitter on the bus to a central computer which will utilize image mapping technology to automatically find and send out summons. The cameras would both increase the flow of busses and generate revenue
None of the above reductions will drive riders away from the system. The MTA has done a fine job with the MVM's. They are simpler to use then most ATM's and far simpler then similar automated systems at other transit operations. Elininating metrocard discounts and larger raises in unlimited ride cards will drive users from the system further putting pressure on revenues. In addition the $1 monthly surcharge on EZ-PASS will just lead to longer cash lines and increased labor costs at toll crossing. I believe express bus routes where convienent subway alternatives exist should be cut back. One example is Bay Ridge and Bensnhurst in brooklyn. Scheduling improvements on the R and possible reinstituting express service on the west end line should be looked at. One radical aproach would be to rebuild some local stations on the west end line to better allign the service with ridership concentrations
If I had to choose a poison it would be
>>>>Keep the off peak fare at $1.50. Have a separate one day pass for $4.00 that can be used weekdays beginning after 9:30 a.m., and weekends.<<<<
#3 West End Jeff
My comment -
Your Comments 11/22/2002 11:06 AM
I'll take Option "C". Raise the standard fare to $2, and the express bus fare to $4, but keep them at that level for as many
years as possible. I live on Staten Island and use the express buses and would grudingly pay more rather than contend with
fewer, more crowded buses. But don't call the $0.50 toll increase a "security toll surcharge". That's nothing more than a cheap
attempt to capitalize on legitimate post-9/11 security concerns.
>>>, and the express bus fare to $4...<<<
The express bus fare NEVER should have been lowered. IMO. But, then again that was Rudys gift to SI.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok...I'll bite.
I was looking through the site's newest pics and found a pic of an MBTA PCC at the Coney Island Yard (actually a few of them).
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/historical/mbta3204f.jpg
So what was it doing here? Make a wrong turn?
It was on its way to the Trolley Museum of New York, but why it came to Coney first I'm not sure... maybe some repairs?
The way I understand it, they were bought to run on a proposed heritage line using the former SBK right of way by an early TMNY group. It didn't happen. Everything that TMNY had in storage or being worked on in Coney Island ended up in Kingston. The 3 T's never ran in Brooklyn, but I think they were towed around a couple times.
The 3 T's never ran in Brooklyn
3204 and its All-Electric sisters never ran much around Boston either in their later years! They were the black-sheep of the MBTA's PCC fleet, and the first class of cars fully retired after the Boeing LRV's arrived. Even aging Tremont cars 3004 and 3008 outlasted them.
JD
If I remember the SBK tracks on MacDonald Av there was no trolley wire, not that it would have mattered as the car in the picture doesn't seen to have a pole. Would it have been towed by a diesel and if yes, how would the coupling work? Does Boston use conduits or did they just take the pole off?
On an unrelated note, I've never seen center doors like that on the operator's side of the car on PCC's. Did MBTA use conductors in the middle like Peter Witt cars? Or was it the honor system?
All Boston PCC's except the very first, 3001 have left hand center doors. They were used in the Central Subway where left-hand platforms are found at several stations including Park Street and Government Center (aka Scolley Square).
>>>"All Boston PCC's except the very first, 3001 have left hand center doors"<<<
or to be politically correct???, the 100th Brooklyn (St. Louis)
PCC that was diverted to Boston and the Queen Mary Clark Built
1000 came to Brooklyn instead. >G<
;-) Sparky
The poles (and in one case, unintentionally the entire roof monitor as well) are removed to provide road clearance when they were shipped by truck.
The idea for this heritage line was to restring wire over the SBK and tie into the remnants of McDonald Ave. tracks by Ave. X towards Coney Island and the former Church Ave. loop at 39th St. south of 1st Ave.
Boston's left hand doors were to enable the cars to load on certain stations with island platforms - there are a few in the subway downtown and one on Ashmont-Mattapan.
Funny story about the SBK tracks on MacDonald. When I was a teen in the late 60's-early 70's I used to visit my grandmother often when she lived in the Warbasse Building next to the Van Sicklen (Neptune Av) Station. One day I took a walk n/b on MacDonald. I had no idea about the SBK RR and always assumed the tracks on MacDonald were left over trolley tracks as there were many places in Bklyn that still had tracks left at that time. Imagine my surprise when a small freight or work train pulled by a diesel went by right on MacDonald!! Probably the only other time I was surprised by a train was when I saw one cross Stewart Av by the Garden City Secondary Yard!
Maybe they are being converted to run on Fred s Sea Beach Line, like I predicted as a shuttle(ha ha ha)
I also noticed that there are R-44s in original livery with the ORIGINAL number boards in back of the MBTA PCC trolley.
#3 West End Jeff
That car has been there for years (at least since the late 1970's). I took a picture of it many years ago. If I can find it I will let you know when I took it (I don't have a scanner so I couldn't post it).
Just noticed - that's 3204, which now resides at Bob D's in Red Hook.
Check out the BTM site at Brooklyn Historic Railway Association
When did 3204 relocate from New York's Ulster County to Kings County???
BHRA roster, shows only MBTA 3321, 3303, 3299 only.
;-) Sparky
I sit corrected.
Now, the million dollar question: What happened to 3304?
3204 is still in Kingston. You must be confusing it with the other PCCs on BHRAs roster.
Evan,
I knew MBTA 3204 was in Kingston, I was just kibitzing the noted
member at BSM of relocating the unit 100 miles south. I have been
a member of TMNY since 1977 and am knowlegable of the roster.
May be inactive, but I'm not an ignoramus. Nothing confusing in
my reply to Dan Lawrence.
Have a Happy Holiday,
:-) Sparky
Evan,
I knew MBTA 3204 was in Kingston, I was just kibitzing the noted
member at BSM of relocating the unit 100 miles south. I have been
a member of TMNY since 1977 and am knowlegable of the roster.
May be inactive, but I'm not an ignoramus.
Have a Happy Holiday,
:-) Sparky
OOPS, this reply should have been deleted.
;-) Sparky
first can irt stock run on bmt lines? is there a problem with platforms?
second, vice versa?
third, more interesting, can bmt/ind stock roll on lirr lines?
last mnrr and lirr?
All stock can roll on all lines.
IND-BMT stock running on the IRT will smash into the platforms which are designed for the narrower IRT cars.
IRT stock running on the BMT will leave gaps for little old ladies with babies to fall onto the tracks.
IRT and IND-BMT stock have their trippers on opposite sides of the train, so their is no safety control for these movements.
This being said, IRT equipment regularlly moves on the IND-BMT division (when taking (7) cars to Coney Island for service) but they have special pilot cars with dual trippers, and are not carring old ladies with babies that may fall down onto the tracks.
All subway equipment can run on the LIRR albeit the LIRR operates at 750 volts, while the Subway cars run on 600 volts. The extra 150 volts ought not harm the motors which really can run on a wide range of voltages given the transmission losses endemic to third rail operation.
MNRR has a different kind of third rail that is not compatible with subway equipment. I do not know, but what you might have to remove your shoes to tiptoe across that lion.
Elias
Metro North uses underlying third rail, which is the original Sprague-type. All other services use overriding third rail, and a cover board above it.
which is the original Sprague-type.
Sprague cars in Paris, then Sprague 3rd rail on the MNRR... who or what was Sprague?
Frank J. Sprague: Inventor, Scientist, Engineer.
More Info HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Frank Sprague??
That name rings a bell for some reason.
He invented many things, but his key invention so far as railfans are concerned was multiple-unit operation.
"MNRR has a different kind of third rail that is not compatible with subway equipment. I do not know, but what you might have to remove your shoes to tiptoe across that lion. "
Careful it may be illegal to cross a staid lion.
Careful it may be illegal to cross a staid lion.
Only if you want to tranport mynas for imortal porpiouses! : )
This being said, IRT equipment regularlly moves on the IND-BMT division (when taking (7) cars to Coney Island for service) but they have special pilot cars with dual trippers, and are not carring old ladies with babies that may fall down onto the tracks.
Also you'll see old IRT converted stock on some work trains.
The Refuse cars were designed to IRT specs and are seen running the rails everyday.
I spent 15 minutes in awe this morning watching a police officer at 110th Street on the 2/3 show dozens of passengers how to jump the turnstiles. At least half of the passengers who entered during that period didn't pay a fare.
why was he showing them how to jump turnstiles?
He was bored?
and you wonder why the fares are going up
There's got to be more to this story. Any other details you can think of that you forgot to write down the first time?
Well, R-142's make a hell of a racket rounding that curve south of the station, but I don't think that's what you're asking about.
Isn't this called "entrapment"?
-Robert King
Sounds more like "encouragement"
He wasn't giving anyone tickets.
Were the turnstiles not working at all at the time? I don't see why else would a police officer demonstrate the art of turnstile jumping...
The turnstiles were working just fine. Lots of people were swiping in. Lots more weren't.
Isn't this called "entrapment"?
-Robert King
WTF!? That officer should be put in jail for something as stupid as that! All the more reason why I hate cops!They're supposed to make sure that no one breaks the law and what happens? They turn around and do it themselves.Now that's just truly pathetic.Hey and what the heck did the token booth clerk do during the whole time? Just sit there and look stupified?
Could it be possible that the computer connection was offline so that the MetroCards could nto be read and the turnstile arms would not release?
Perhaps to compound matters the slam gate would not release as well.
Not everyone was jumping. Those who swiped swiped successfully.
I admit, I haven't been thrilled with the NYPD lately (no offense intended to our recently retired police officer on this board). I've had enough of the highly selective enforcement of traffic laws, delaying other drivers (and, ObTransit, bus passengers) and putting pedestrians at risk. After I got off the subway, I crossed 5th Avenue at 42nd Street and was cut off by a commercial van turning right, even though there are prominent NO TURNS EXCEPT BUSES signs -- and then I noticed the cop standing right there, doing nothing. But actively showing people how to jump the turnstile is far worse than passively ignoring violators.
I don't know what the S/A did. He may have called someone who could deal with the problem.
David... As one who delights in puzzling Subtalkers with my posts, I must say that your description of what you observed yesterday for 15 minutes is puzzling. Were the turnstiles allowing people to move through them after paying a fare?
Certainly, for those who opted to pay a fare.
I'm not surprised. As a daily user of that station I've seen it all--Including rampant turnstyle-hopping.
One day the service gate was propped open and the booth empty. A sign was taped to the booth saying "Will be back in -- minutes, please use gate"
On another occasion, back when the station had only two turnstyles, both of them broke at the same time, forcing all entering passengers to "jump" their way into the system.
It's a special station. I love it.
I am a S/A. They should not leave the booth unattended. We are supposed to call supervision if we need a comfort break and on rare days,they'll let us go. I do not have names, but many S/As think they are above the rules. If they went for coffee to the street they are in big trouble when supervision finds out. (I do not tell since I do not know they wre not granted approval.)
As far as turnstiles out of order they have a proceedure for that. There is a black bnox near the service gate. Put the token int he black box and go through the gate.
As far as the S/A at 100 and Lenox, let's hope supervision was not around or is reading this board or that the S/A got approval before leaving the booth.
You guys think S/A's propping open the booth is bad? That happens DAILY here in Boston -- yes DAILY. Late at night, I think it is MBTA policy to prop open the gate. The supervisors show up and prop open the gate, and let the agent go home early (sometimes). I won't say which station to get no one into trouble, but I once met a supervisor who said (his very own words): "I'm going home, I don't care if anyone gets locked out" as he was locking up the system some 15 mins before the last train was due. I understand where he is coming from -- he said that he is working an early shift tomorrow at 4am.
During the middle of the day, I also sometimes see gates propped open. There would either be a piece of paper saying "go through gate" or at least "put token or change in box and go through gate". I have also stood there looking official (if I had time to burn, cuz I was waiting to meet somebody) to make sure people did put the token in. Some people will try to show me the pass, others will ask me if they can just go through. I don't even wear T-uniform type clothes.
AEM7
I don't think it was the S/A at 110 Street who had gone out for a comfort. But it would be interesting to know what his/her side of the story is.
BTW what time did this happen?
About 10 years ago at the Forest Ave Station on the M line, the token clerk was fast asleep in the booth. How he managed to be asleep I have no idea, because Forest is a school station for nearby IS 93, and it was about 2:00 or so, but probably just before school let out. I needed tokens and even after banging on the glass about 5 times, I couldn't wake him up. I should have just went in like everyone else was doing, but I am an honest person, and would have felt guilty all day. Not to mention it was so ludicrous that it seemed like it had to be a Candid Camera skit.
When the MetroCard turnstiles were being installed, Transit got an unusual complaint from the civil-liberties crowd: While the ACT of jumping the turnstiles may be illegal, the physical ABILITY to do so is a pre-existing (and thus protected) right. Clearly, that went nowhere.
That probably explains why plastic shields weren't installed along side each turnstile. It was meant to deny a jumper a handhold so they could jump over. I always thought in the pilot program it was just that they were all smashed by youths and their "friends".
"Transit got an unusual complaint from the civil-liberties crowd: While the ACT of jumping the turnstiles may be illegal, the physical ABILITY to do so is a pre-existing (and thus protected) right. "
Can you cite a reference for this? This sounds like the kind of thing Rush Limbaugh makes up to make people horrified about the ACLU.
Same thing happend at 42nd St/7th (2 weekends ago) when the booth computer went down and ALL, repeat ALL MVM's would not accept cash.
Stations would only allow tokens to be purcahsed but when the crowd got so huge the NYPD for saftey reasons allowed people to enter the service gate.
This still did not cut down on the crowd as it just jammed up the gate so NYPD allowed people to jump the turnstiles or wait on line at the gate.
If you had a card you could swipe but not a lot of people were doing that.
I don't think Stations would let people in for free, had to be NYPD to do it.
Transit has a policy for such an event:
If all turnstiles are out of order and will not acceptt MetroCards then they must buy a token. If they turnstiles are also not accepting tokens there is the black box known as the NRFB (non-Reveunu Fare Box) by the service gate or even hand collect.SOURCE: AFC Office via a Superintendent to me personally and givewn as official instruction.
Of course- NYPD instructions are to be followed and we often defer to NYPD for those claiming not to have money to buy a fare.
As I stated, this was a crowd control issue as the place was wall to wall with people. I believe it was an excellent move by NYPD and Stations should change their policy when all methods to purchase metrocards via cash is down. Unless they will issue tokens at the same discount as the metrocard?? nah never happen.
>>>If all turnstiles are out of order and will not acceptt MetroCards then they must buy a token. <<<
If I ever go into a station where the turnstiles are not accepting cards and I have a bought and paid for Metrocard I am not going to buy a token I will jump. That is their problem. The TA can bite me if they think otherwise.
Peace,
ANDEE
"The TA can bite me if they think otherwise."
They won't bite you but the police certainly might arrest you if they feel like it.
And I would hire a lawyer.
Peace,
ANDEE
"And I would hire a lawyer."
And you'd win.
Then you'd be several hundred dollars poorer in attorney's fees. And unless you spend tens of thousands, you won't set a precedent that the police can't arrest others in a similar circumstance.
And I would hire a lawyer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well David, I'm impressed. Half the cops I've seen couldn't jump over a donut box, much less a turnstile.
Who said he could to it himself? He was just giving instructions to others.
We were all biting our nails as to whether the TWU
would authorize a strike on the busiest holiday of
year. We all breathed a collective sigh of relief
when the MTA and the TWU reach a deal. Now that
sigh has been replaced with a gasp. Talk of a two
dollar fare hike is once again rearing its ugly
head. The MTA loves to toot their own horn in
saying that ridership has increased. So where's the
increase in revenue to prove it?
For a long time I have indirectly criticized the MTA
for their capital spending habits, or should I say
capital squandering. Why not raise the fare to three
dollars now so they will not have a lame excuse to
raise it again in seven years. The riders that will
suffer most are the hardworking souls making minimum
wage. Spending 20 dollars or so on a new Metrocard
every week doesn't seem like much, but if you're
renting a room and living by yourself, that 20 bucks
can make a difference. I can say this because I was
one of those hardworking souls making minimun wage.
There were days when I had to go without food just
so that I had money to go to work. It didn't help
that I was living in a two fare zone at the time. I
survived thanks to a caring mom.
I'll admit the subway has come a long way from the
days of a graffiti scrawled Broadway local and a J
train with flat spots on every other wheelset. So
has the bus system with new air conditioned Orions
and New Flyers. But most riders will say that there
is still room for improvement. I can't fathom paying
two dollars to ride NYCT. The MTA can hold the fare
at the current 1.50 if they would just trim the fat
but not pass the extra calories to the riding
public. Those of us who live in the suburbs are not
getting off any easier, fare hikes have been
proposed for the LIRR and Metro North collectively.
The MTA will be scheduling hearings on this subject
and I hope that members of the riding public will
Pay three bucks for a ride. Maybe four or five. When R160s hit the rails, six or seven. Wanna clean car with fresh air filters...add an extra buck or two. Don't forget to leave me a tip.
For those who are familiar with the original Outer Limits series, it will come as no surprise that the Federal Government has secretly installed Outer Band Individuated Teletracers (OBIT) in the consoles of the R142/143's. Specially trained train operators have been taught the correct sequencing of switches to throw so that they can tune into the thoughts of their customers during service delays. You can protect the privacy of what's left of your mind, by wearing a knit cap lined with at least 3 layers of heavy aluminum foil, which are separated by layers of paraffin wax having a dielectric constant of at least .024 biot-savarts.
Methinks you have been inhaling too much steel dust lately. Stay away from shovelnoses on the Brighton Express for a few weeks.
"Methinks you have been inhaling too much steel dust lately. Stay away from shovelnoses on the Brighton Express for a few weeks."
So you think I'm making this up??
Well, here's a picture I have of a train operator scanning the brains of his customers.
train console
And if you don't believe the picture, ask BMTman about his experience a couple of nights ago. He was looking out the window of his apartment and imagining that it was the control tower of the Bay Ridge branch and that he was using his PROTRAC RC1 radio controlled train transformer to control the movements of the freight train that was passing through the Junction area.
A #2 train operator who was waiting for the signal to leave Flatbush Avenue scanned BMTman's frequency and was alarmed at what he saw. He alerted the authorities who questioned BMTman for 5 hours before they realized that he was not an imminent threat to vital freight movements in this strategic rail corridor. However, they did program BMTman's main frequency in all #2 and #5 consoles and will keep him closely monitored for the foreseeable future.
Wait -- aren't they just really counting his wheel rotations and PRETENDING to know where his head is at?
My goodness! What did I do to deserve this?!
My mind hasn't been my own since I stepped into heypaul's R-9 cab. I suppose his cab was a portal to another dimension...not of sight or of sound.....but of mind....:)
First time bingbong and I stepped out, Tom Mix rode by on a horse. Fortunately, despite the confusing layout, I was still able to operate the reverser key. :)
Wait a minute ... I recognize that cab ... that isn't the 142/143, that's the secret altar in the R68A's stored at Concourse yahd. You can tell because it still has the round corners on the screen while the Coney Island rebuilds have rectangular screens. What were you doing in the BRONX, boy? :)
I don't know how he got there, but I betcha it was in a Kreisler 300.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ooch ouch. I take it you haven't been out to his house lately - hidden away in the secret bedroom is the ORIGINAL Boynton bicycle. :)
Staples has biot-savarts measuring tools on 4 week backorder. Quick - do you know a place I can get one quicker? I'm scared, I'm REALLY SCARED .....
--Mark
I overheard something interesting at my company's holiday party this evening. A young woman who started working in another department a month or so ago was talking about her move to New York. She had moved here from another state - I didn't catch the name of the state, but from context I believe it was Ohio or Indiana - after being laid off by her prior employer. This turned out to be something good, she said, because she always had wanted to live in New York and now had the opportunity. She seemed quite enthusiastic about her experiences. Although she didn't really know anyone in New York when she arrived, she was making some friends in the city. She said that she was pleased with her apartment, and really liked working for our company. It is rare to see such enthusiasm in people these days.
While I'm happy that life is turning out well for this young woman, I couldn't help but thinking that she wouldn't have been so happy if she knew what New York is all about. She probably doesn't know that the Second Avenue Subway has been in the planning stage since our great-grandparents' generation, and has been paid for twice without ever being built. She probably doesn't know that the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction, scheduled for six months, has been going on for 12 years (or is it 14 years?) with no end in sight. Nor does she know that it takes a year to fix a broken station escalator. And this isn't even to mention other forms of Typical New York Incompetence, nor the whole Medicaid can of worms. Someday, of course, she'll be less naive. Maybe ten years from now, assuming she's still in New York, and realizes that the World Trade Center site is still a weedy hole in the ground. Time will tell, I suppose, but her naive ways surely will end.
Something tell's me,she wouldn't really care about any of that whatsoever.
Gotta remember though - if it wasn't for newcomers and transients, those "going out of business sale" stores REALLY WOULD go out of business. :)
Selkirk is right. Its that constant infusion which both renews, and also causes lower wages because they want so badly to be in NY. No much of that in Peoria or Kokomo or Dayton.
Yeah, then she'll have become a Noo Yawker. Midwesterners are enthusiastic, positive, and not always ready to rain on anything that anyone tries to do. That's why I hate New York, hate the Northeast, and IHTFP in general. I can't wait until I move out to Chicago.
New York is cool, but definitely a place to visit and not a place to live. New York would be wonderful without all its people.
AEM7
Sorry to disagree. I grew up north of Chicago and JUST moved here from Cincinnati to escape the riots and negativism and conservativism. Yeah, I'm gung-ho, but the snotty NYers are usually displaced Midwesterners like me trying to prove something.
I LOVE this place. The MANNY B is a blip on the radar. It'll get done. Lighten up. You got 25 other lines. Cincinnati has 0 other lines. Fuggedaboudit.
it would have a subway if they ever finished it... right now its just holes in the ground with stations...much more than whats under 2nd ave....... [just tunnels and no stations!]
They will never finish it.
The Cincinatti Subway was a late 1920's project. It was finished, more or less in the early 30's. What it was intended for was the interurbans that served Cincinatti when the project started. When it was basicly complete the interurbans were going out of business.
It never saw a train or a streetcar.
Some of the tunnels are boarded up and decaying. Some are used to carry water mains and telephone cables.
I toured the downtown tunnel when that was unusual and maintenance looked unlikely. Now, however, the tunnels look like they might get a new life. The first light rail corridor (trashed by the voters) went up a freeway, but the second corridor might go through the old tunnels.
They actually ran out of money prior to any of the stations being finished, and prior to the Depression. They would never have been able to handle PCC cars.
Since the tunnels were built to handle interurban cars, I suspect that running PCC's would work. PCC's are basicly 46 foot cars.
We'll never know, since the idea was dropped 70 years ago and the tunnels were more or less sealed.
Since Cincinatti turned down light rail recently and the streetcars went away half a century ago don't expect anything to ever happen.
I would have to check the site again, but I believe this was not interurban (the newer freeway on the other side of town runs on Cinti's one interurban r.o.w.). The cars were to be short, local, and narrow like the IRT. This predates the IND example.
>>> Yeah, I'm gung-ho, but the snotty NYers are usually displaced Midwesterners like me trying to prove something <<<
Yes, I've noticed that too. It ain't a good thing. What do they need to prove and why?
Oh and the Manny B really does need to be rebuilt. C'mon, six months turning into 16 years? Definitely not just a blip on the radar.
Midwesterners are enthusiastic, positive, and not always ready to rain on anything that anyone tries to do.
You may have a point. Most Midwesterners I've known indeed have had similar outlooks.
New York is cool, but definitely a place to visit and not a place to live. New York would be wonderful without all its people.
You do realize you are trying to tell this to a group of mainly New Yorkers......
New York is cool, but definitely a place to visit and not a place to live. New York would be wonderful without all its people.
Eh, some maybe. But to tell the truth, I've been in Towers for several months now, and kind of regretting making the move. I kind of enjoyed the interaction with (some) customers when I was a conductor. A lot of them would talk to me for the whole ride. Interacting with different people is the fun of NY.
Not to mention going over the Manny B, having my head out the window (until things got too close, eighteen inches clearance is really not enough for a head :) on the Willy B, "The Flats", Culver, the 31st Street El.
I love going to Little Italy, Katz' (best Pastrami :) Astoria, among other places. And their people. They all have some form of character.
You really can't generalize New York because you'll find similar people and experiences everywhere.
And I'm a native New Yorker of 23 years. I went to school in Rochester, not the best of places to go I know, but after a year, I couldn't stand to be away from the city any longer. Visit my sister in PA, can't stand even a weekend. Nothing going on.
And I do "know better". This place rocks, even to a resident.
Aww, give this young woman some confidence! So she believes the cup is half full and not half empty...we need more people like that in this world. Sure, every place has it's problems, but that doesn't necesarily mean you can't be excited and enjoy where you are living. -Nick
There are probably people who have lived in Manhattan for 30 years who don't know about the Second Avenue Subway situation or the Manhattan Bridge Construction!
There are probably people who have lived in Manhattan for 30 years who don't know about the Second Avenue Subway situation or the Manhattan Bridge Construction!
That's true. People who don't ride the Lex or any of the Manhattan Bridge lines probably wouldn't be personally affected by either fiasco. Assuming they're among the 99% of the population that are not railfans, they indeed might not know. Point is, if they DID know, they'd probably be horrified at the city's incompetence.
And what could they do? The people who do know haven't made much of an influence either.
Well, this Swamp Yankee from the farm has been here 25 years & S-T-I-L-L likes the place !
I feel the good stuff far out ways the bad, if you take the time to do the good stuff, e.g. last Thursday my grandson & I spent a day in Manhattan. We used the MTA extensively (LIRR, subways & buses (LI & TA)). The wife got permission to take the rest of the day off just after we left :-( But that was OK because she would have wanted to do a lot of shopping < G >
Come on, Peter. I know you disagree, but some people think this is a great city despite its problems. Perhaps she's one of us.
Yea! Brothers and Sisters!!!!!
WIll you let your children move to NEW YORK CITY????? Do you know what EVIL they will ENCOUNTER!!!!!
They have been led by SWEET TOUNGED HUCKSTERS to believe that THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY WOULD BE BUILT!!!!!!
DEMONS who walk like MEN have convinced them that THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE WOULD BE RECONSTRUCTED!!!!!!
THEY shall HAVE TO LEARN THE BITTER TRUTH for THEMSELVES!!!!!!
Amen.
Or musically:
Someday Sweetheart
You're going to be sorry
When you realize
What you have done
Your Oshkosh folks
Will always love you
Though you face
New York's broken vows
Oh you're happy now
And you can't see how
Those subway blues
Will ever come to you
But they promise to build
Then the projects are killed (dear)
And when they're killed
Your hopes are spilled (Sweetheart)
With apologies to the Spikes Brothers
Scwoo THAT ... they're going to discover (gasp!) The New York Post! Talk about brain rot that even TimeWarner can't program! Oh, the humanity (substitute New York Times if you're glad to be a republican). :)
AMEN . . . AMEN . . . all hail brother Paul. Say amen
Peace.
ANDEE
C'mon Peter, stop being such a cynic... be thankful that there are people like her who have the enthusiasm that the City needs. The immigrants who first set foot in the City 100-175 years ago and lived in places like Five Points, the Bowery, and the Lower East Side didn't exactly find a bed of roses waiting for them, but they were enthusiastic about being here and helped make the City and the US in general a vibrant place to live. The culture shock of coming from the Midwest isn't quite as great as that coming from overseas, but it's still different; glad to see that she's enthusiastic about it all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
New York City RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whaaa....
I think she's just happy to be here. You don't have to downplay her just because she isn't aware. If you care so much, you should've told her about all of that.
I think she's just happy to be here. You don't have to downplay her just because she isn't aware. If you care so much, you should've told her about all of that.
I didn't say anything to her. Raining on someone's parade is hardly polite behavoir.
Heh, we got a few transplanted Midwesterners working at my work who moved here over the summer. I gotta admit, they do come off as tourists who have overstayed their welcome.
It's funny, so many people want to move to New York, while those of us who are native New Yorkers or who have lived here for many years want to get the hell out. Don't worry, she will know better one of these days. Wait till her train stalls for umpteenth time or someone bumps into her for the millionth time. Wait till she gets an unexpected raise in her rent. By then she'll get it. I've seen it happen.
Whoa! Step back, Jack! I now accept this as a formal challenge and I intend to overstay my welcome for the rest of my life, no matter how much I get bumped. Man, you people are delicate!
Good luck! I know one girl at my job who moved here from Michigan six months ago and now she's moving back. I gotta admit, I was surprised when she told me.
Last Saturday afternoon it took my wife and me 2 hours from Long Island to Staten island for a B'Day party for our friend's 1 Y/O granddaughter. "THEY" install EZ Pass on the Verrazano Bridge to speed things along and then let traffic from non-EZ Pass holders back things up into Sheepshead Bay. Mediocrity reigns supreme in municipal services. "Good Enough" seems to be the standard of performance. Planning without vision - planning without purpose - planning without reason - planning without any real planning.
2nd Avenue Subway???? I've been living on Long Island for 18 years and can't remember a time when there was no construction on the LIE. We pay for quality and get equality in its place. Why else would a new school in NYC cost 6 X per square foot more than a school in most eany other east coast city? We build 'em to high standards but don't have any standards for the final product.
Forgive the rant but it's become abundantly clear to me that we've empowered the bitter and visionless of our society. They replace the corrupt and ethicly challanged. Same trough - different pigs feeding from it, while the good & honest continue to pour their feed into it. The inmates continue to have the keys to the institution. Last year at this time, my wife would never have thought of leaving New York and our 3 grandchildren behind. Now - even she is beginning to realize that the things that make NY great, make life in it suck. You're new co-worker - give her a few years.
FWIW, guy ... I think you're getting to understand why I throw my own tantrums. It's JUST as bad upstate, (smaller crowds but just as dumb) only difference being we're just around the corner from the sausage factory that CREATES the mess. But the brain trust ain't all that better elsewhere either. You may pay less down south, but you STILL get your money's worth, just a whole lot less of it.
Welcome to the institution of New York. Medication time ... medication time. :)
Trust me; if you lived in southern Ohio, you'd have to go four hours to Cleveland to visit your friends. There'd be orange barrels all the way and the Statehouse would have used the same visionless methods to cram the highways with trucks that they use here to cram the tollbooths with cars. The same suburb-versus-city fight happens everywhere in the country. The difference is, when the dust blows away everywhere else, there's nothing left. Here, there's still New York City.
Forgive the rant but it's become abundantly clear to me that we've empowered the bitter and visionless of our society. They replace the corrupt and ethicly challanged. Same trough - different pigs feeding from it, while the good & honest continue to pour their feed into it. The inmates continue to have the keys to the institution. Last year at this time, my wife would never have thought of leaving New York and our 3 grandchildren behind. Now - even she is beginning to realize that the things that make NY great, make life in it suck. You're new co-worker - give her a few years.
You've put it very well. It's almost as if New York, both state and city, have become self-destructive. Either that, or they're totally deluded and can't grasp the concept that people can and will move elsewhere at the drop of a hat. A truly disgusting situation.
Yet NYC has its greatest (recorded) population ever. Apparently, despite all the stupidity in the air, some people still find reasons to live here. Yes, it's outrageous that the Manhattan Bridge is still under repair -- but I'd be crazy to leave because of it. (At least we have a Manhattan Bridge.) I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
I'm sure I'll learn the hard way, and other architects in the office working in NYC know how hard it is to get through all the entrenched and questionable methods. But remember when the 70's meant the end was near? When Tweed was insurmountable? The riots of the nineteenth century? This is a living organism with more energy than most.
It's ELITISM, and it exists on BOTH sides of the aisle. Politicians are SO far removed from reality in general (especially the leadership) that they cannot even begin to fathom reality nor are they interested in it. They discuss life and death among a small clique of similar interests ... I know, I've worked AMONG it for years and it's no different here than in Montana.
As far as THIS goes, rather than elections, politicians should be DRAFTED from among the public by random selection. You get a post card in the mail and you MUST go to City Hall or Smallbany (fare provided) and be forced to serve. I think we'd get a bit more logic that way. :)
It's ELITISM, and it exists on BOTH sides of the aisle. Politicians are SO far removed from reality in general (especially the leadership) that they cannot even begin to fathom reality nor are they interested in it. They discuss life and death among a small clique of similar interests ... I know, I've worked AMONG it for years and it's no different here than in Montana.
It's not just the politicians. New York's voters are imbeciles too, voting for the same schmucks year after year in truest knee-jerk fashion.
Not just New York there either. :)
How about your beloved sunbelt. jesse helms, strom thurmond trent lott. I'd take New York's politicians over those who come from your dreamworld. Oh, BTW why are you so interested in the New York City subway, Marta or Dart should be more to your liking.
How about your beloved sunbelt. jesse helms, strom thurmond trent lott. I'd take New York's politicians over those who come from your dreamworld. Oh, BTW why are you so interested in the New York City subway, Marta or Dart should be more to your liking.
The Sunbelt has its share of idiot politicians, but they're effective idiots. They bring jobs and propserity to the area. New York's idiot politician bring nothing but unemployment and hardship.
Tha6t is The result of undertaxed underregulated and underunionized fatcat big business abusing their xasat economic power to bulk up the right to work confederate states at the expense of the northeastern states which comprised the most productive region on Earth until the corrupt republican party rammed through taft-heartless and destroyed the Northeast. BTW, did you know that the planes that scrambled in response to 9-11 were scrambled from the nearest air defense facility, Hancock Field, an Air NATIONAL GUARD base near Syracuse, NY 250 air miles away (it seems that all of rhe air bases closer to NYC were shut down by partisan generals to favor building up the scab states and ever that is not enough for the plutocratic fat cat businessmen. China is constantly getting all of America's manufacturing jobs because they underbid US plants. As this happens, our engineering and technological educational establishment is withering away, replaced by anti-moral MBA programs. While the 20th. century was the American Century, the 21st. will belong to China as they evolve to a system which allows for greater civil liberties, FREE UNIONISM, and regulated private ownership of the means of production and all the while our military capacity becomes more and more outdated as the new powerhouse, China develops weapons that are far more advanced than anything our atrophied manufacturing and technological infrastructure could ever envision.
When I first moved to NYC, I had to learn not to smile at people on the street and not to wear shorts no matter if it was 105 degrees outside. At that time, I was really unhappy with the men of NYC.
Seemed like I couldn't be friendly or comfortable.
Once I learned how to not make eye-contact and cover up, my life got
easier. Now that I'm older, I can even smile again without being a target. And I've learned that most New Yorkers are not cold or indifferent. The people are what I love about NYC. The diversity here is unparalled. If you stay open to it, there is so much to experience. I keep hoping the infrastructure will get better. Now that we're in lean times, I'm not expecting much. But people still want to be here. Otherwise...they're missing something!
The people are what I love about NYC. The diversity here is unparalled. If you stay open to it, there is so much to experience. I keep hoping the infrastructure will get better. Now that we're in lean times, I'm not expecting much. But people still want to be here. Otherwise...they're missing something!
It might be too much to expect major projects to get done right now, what with deficits and all. Yet there's the fact that the Second Avenue Subway fiasco has encompassed several business cycles. It easily could have been built during the 1950's, for example, which were a prosperous time for the city and the nation. And consider that the Manhattan Bridge travesty stretched the entire length of the 1990's, once again a flush period. Typical New York Incompetence is so egregious that things can't get done even when money's practically growing on trees. That's the real tragedy.
"And consider that the Manhattan Bridge travesty stretched the entire length of the 1990's, once again a flush period."
But in that case the system worked and the flush period was the seed for reconstruction. What was needed was:
- A few years to realize things were flush.
- A few years to put together a full reconstruction plan.
- Eight years to execute the plan; a lot of time, but needed because closing the bridge entirely to either cars or trains was considered unacceptable.
So with the MB the system has worked, slowly but surely.
In the state of Washington they just wait till the bridge collapses or sinks, then rebuild it quickly. I suppose we could do that in NY too; it would be a lot quicker.
(I'm not making this up. Three MAJOR WA bridges have collapsed (or sunk in the case of floating bridges): the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the early 50s, the Hood Canal Bridge in the 80s, and the Lake Washington Bridge in the 90s).
I don't know the history of the two latter examples you cited, but the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed in November 1940, just a few months after it was opened. Its collapse was caused by strong winds setting up harmonic vibrations in the roadbed, the strength and frequency of which had not been anticipated in the design. It is in no way analagous to the situation with the MannyB.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know the history of the two latter examples you cited, but the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed in November 1940, just a few months after it was opened. Its collapse was caused by strong winds setting up harmonic vibrations in the roadbed, the strength and frequency of which had not been anticipated in the design. It is in no way analagous to the situation with the MannyB.
It took only ten years to build Galloping Gertie's replacement. Keep in mind that World War II occurred during that time and presumably brought construction activity to a halt, or nearly so. Then consider that New York has been piddling around with the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction for at least 12 years already, with no end in sight. I guess there's no such thing as Typical Washington Incompetence.
Then consider that New York has been piddling around with the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction for at least 12 years already, with no end in sight. I guess there's no such thing as Typical Washington Incompetence.
Apples and Oranges.
It takes less time to build a new road or bridge than to do a major overhaul on an existing bridge, especially when that bridge is not closed to traffic. Fixing half a bridge now, and half a bridge later is the same thing as fixing two different bridges.
If the bridge would have closed completely, then each trade would only needed to have come to the work site once, and do the whole thing at once.
Elias
It is in no way analagous to the situation with the MannyB.
Both bridges were designed by Leon Moisseiff.
Both bridges were designed by Leon Moisseiff.
True, and in that sense there is a connection - both bridges were of flawed design, although it took over half a century for that to become obvious in the case of the MannyB, rather than almost immediately in the case of Galloping Gertie. My reference was to the failure of the City to maintain the bridge and respond quickly and appropriately at the first sign of problems, which is the main reason that the Manhattan Bridge's problems became as severe as they did. Deferred maintenance and governmental inertia, obviously, had nothing to do with the collapse of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So your message is what? That anyone who's excited about NYC should know better? This might be a frustrating place, but it's a wonderful place too. I know of no other city like it in the world. It is unparalelled for its diversity, its opportunity, its energy, and so much more. I'm proud to be a part of it. And I've lived in the NY area my entire life.
:-) Andrew
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Railroaders around the country were wondering last week why White House spokesman Ari Fleischer ducked a question regarding Amtrak at a daily news briefing.
On December 6, a reporter asked Fleischer a question regarding Amtrak’s financial condition.
The questioner asked, “The White House has taken somewhat of a standoffish attitude toward the imminent bankruptcy of United Airlines. I was wondering, with the new economic team coming in, will they be looking at problems like this collapse of a large chunk of our transportation grid? Also we have, going into 2003, Amtrak facing possible bankruptcy. Will they look at these with new eyes?”
Fleischer responded, “I think that you can expect that all people in the administration, whether they’re the current people or future people, will be guided by the law; and the law in the case of the airline industry created a fund that could be made available for finite and set purposes limited to law, which is to provide assistance and to make certain that the assistance went to organizations who would be able to use the taxpayer funded assistance in a way that would not lead to money that could no longer be reimbursed to the Treasury because the financial entity – in this case, the airline, – did not have, as the Transportation Board stated, a viable financial plan. So these matters are decided by this board, and per the criteria established by the Congress.”
Not a peep about Amtrak.
Elsewhere in Washington, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) last week told reporters what he described as “initiatives” for the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation is planning for the 108th Congress. He will be the new committee chairman.
He said hearing dates would be announced as they are scheduled, but in his tentative agenda, Amtrak will be in the mix.
He said Amtrak reform will be on the table.
“The committee will hold hearings on the future of intercity rail passenger service, including comprehensive reform of Amtrak, the introduction of competition for the intercity rail market, the extent and nature of the passenger network, state involvement, and long-term funding options.”
He also noted TEA-21 reauthorization will be a topic.
“The committee will hold a series of hearings to reauthorize the safety programs under the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, including the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. The committee also will consider legislation to reauthorize the Hazardous Materials Transportation Program, the Rail Safety Act, boating safety programs, and other federal transportation programs.”
Transportation security will be a topic.
“The committee will continue to oversee the security of our nation’s transportation system, including the ongoing implementation of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act and the Port and Maritime Security Act. The Committee also will consider legislation authorizing rail and bus security programs.”
Other topics the committee will look into include reauthorizing the Maritime Security Program and reform of the Title XI Maritime Loan Guarantee Program. Also, communications, ranging from the FCC to cable rates; aviation; consumer protection; and even climate change. The Committee will consider a proposal to establish an economy-wide “cap and trade” program on greenhouse gases and examine the impacts of climate change on the environment, the economy, and public health, and will consider changes to the corporate average fuel economy standards. The committee even deals with sports. The members will consider legislation to prohibit gambling on amateur sports and other topics.
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) plainly thinks long-distance passenger train service is a failed experiment.
“America put forth its best effort, but I think you have to face up to an impossible situation... that there are only certain geographic locations which can support passenger transportation and that we ought to focus on those areas,” Virginia’s senior senator said recently. Asked whether he supports the elimination of Amtrak’s money-losing Cardinal that goes through Virginia on its way from Washington, D.C., to Chicago, Warner practically blanches. No way, the Republican said, would he ever propose such an unpopular idea.
Warner’s reaction typifies Congress’ ambivalence toward Amtrak: unhappy with the system in general but reluctant to do away with a program that serves constituents, no matter how few, Gannett New Service reported on December 8.
Next year, federal lawmakers and the Bush administration will have to resolve that dilemma. Amtrak’s reauthorization – or radical reconfiguration – will be the subject of fierce congressional debate.
Amtrak is looking for a record $1.2 billion subsidy from the federal government this year.
The November elections where the GOP gained control of Congress do not bode well for the quasi-governmental, 31-year-old passenger rail company. Republicans are generally less supportive of Amtrak than Democrats, particularly Sen. John McCain (see story above).
McCain said he wants to eliminate federal subsidies of Amtrak, especially for long-distance lines, and has proposed privatizing passenger rail service, but he admits overhauling Amtrak won’t be easy.
“Look, I’m not making any promises just because I’m the chairman of the committee,” he said. “I understand what the entrenched interests are that we fight, but we never give up the fight.”
Some of those interests include senior members of his own party. Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott has said he’s not willing to support a system serving the densely populated Northeast unless it goes through his home state of Mississippi as well.
“We’ve got to have a commitment by Amtrak that it’s going to be a national system,” agreed Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas), who said the company devotes too much money and attention on the Northeast. “There’s got to be an evening out of the resources.” The Texas senator has been a staunch supporter of Amtrak.
Since its first trains chugged out of the station in 1971, Amtrak has been a creature of political design. Under various company presidents, it has tried to act like a private corporation while also trying to please Capitol Hill, and fallen short on both counts.
The Cardinal is a prime example.
During the 1970s, the train became known as the “Harley Staggers Special” because the powerful West Virginia Congressman provided Amtrak with the money to keep the service running daily. In 1981, after Amtrak cancelled the Cardinal and two other lines because of budget cuts by the Reagan administration, Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), inserted special language to a transportation appropriations bill mandating that Amtrak “provide through rail passenger service between Washington, D.C. and Chicago, via Cincinnati.” Service to the Cardinal, the only Amtrak train mandated by law today, resumed within four months.
In 2001, the Cardinal lost $12.6 million, or more than $187 per passenger, according to the General Accounting Office.
Amtrak’s hiring earlier this year of respected railroad veteran David L. Gunn to be its president has been met with widespread praise, even by critics like McCain. Gunn has trimmed management, opened the company’s books and struck the kind of responsive, no-nonsense tenor that Capitol Hill likes to hear, but Gunn cannot overcome Amtrak’s inherent flaws, said Tom Till, former executive director of the now-defunct Amtrak Reform Council, which Congress created to monitor the company’s financial progress.
“Over the long term, the problem is not finding the perfect executive,” he said. “The problem is you don’t have a program structure to allow a reasonably competent administrator to perform their jobs without political interference.”
Gunn, who was lured out of retirement in May to become Amtrak president, wants the Bush administration and Congress to decide what to do about Amtrak: either get rid of it, or decide its role and fund it accordingly.
“It’s not stable the way it is,” Gunn said.
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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A second high-speed Turboliner was delivered on December 11 to Amtrak’s Rensselaer, N.Y., shop to begin final testing, state transportation officials said, but Amtrak still refuses to put in service the first trainset.
The trains are being reconditioned under a $74.4 million state contract with Super Steel Schenectady, and now the new equipment is starting to stack up – and New York transportation officials are getting impatient to see the state’s investment in action, reports the Albany Times Union of December 12.
“We’re going to send them down there so fast that they’re going to have to run them just to get them out of the yard,” state Transportation Commissioner Joseph Boardman said, apparently only half-joking.
Amtrak continued to balk at officially signing off on completion of the first of seven trains – including cars and locomotives – being produced at Super Steel’s plant, a move that could clear the way for the national railroad to put the train into service between Albany and New York.
The first train went to Amtrak’s Rensselaer shop in August for its final round of testing. While the state DOT continues to insist the train is ready to roll, Amtrak maintains there are problems still standing in the way.
An Amtrak spokesman said those include a lack of operations manuals, spare parts and training for employees.
“We expect to put the trainset in service at some point, but these details need to be worked out first,” said Daniel Stessel, an Amtrak spokesman in Washington, D.C.
“Give me a break,” Boardman said of the concerns expressed by Amtrak about the trains. “They seem to come up time after time with manufactured reasons not to put them in service... They desperately need equipment, and this equipment is a lot better than what they have.”
Stessel insisted the delay in accepting the first Turboliner and putting it into service is not related to Amtrak’s current financial crunch and potential national restructuring, but he did say Amtrak believes the Turboliners will be more expensive to run and are harder to expand from their normal five-car configuration.
The trains are designed to travel at speeds of up to 125 mph, but until tracks are upgraded, the new equipment is not expected to improve much on the 85-100 mph maximum speeds of current Amtrak trains in New York State.
Letters between state DOT and Amtrak officials last month hinted that the turbo trains and the track improvements expected as part of a $98.5 million state high-speed rail project could be getting caught up in the dense thicket of issues surrounding Amtrak’s future.
In a November 12 letter to DOT Assistant Commissioner John H. Guinan outlining Amtrak’s concerns about the first train, an Amtrak vice president stated, “As you are aware, Amtrak currently is losing a very significant amount of money on its Empire service operations. Amtrak’s board of directors is considering a policy that would require states to make up any losses generated by corridor service.”
Boardman said he is eager for Amtrak’s future to be settled, but he’s insistent that the federal government must get more actively involved in mapping out the game plan.
“Right now, that hasn’t happened,” he said. “I think the states are willing to be partners, but they’ve got to know what the rules are.”
In the meantime, Boardman said, he believes the Turboliners will roll.
“I presume they’ll go into service right here,” he said. “I hope Amtrak runs them.”
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Passengers traveling aboard the Amtrak Sunset Limited are promised picturesque scenery and first class accommodations, as well as fine dining and entertainment. That may be the case once they get on board, but those catching the train from the Beaumont, Texas unstaffed depot will first have to survive nightmarish conditions – total darkness due to broken lights, broken windows, holes in the ceiling, urine-stained floors and often a homeless person or two sleeping in the shadows.
The Beaumont Examiner News reported on December 5 it is unsettling no matter how streetwise the traveler, and the sad thing is that it’s been that way for as long as most can remember. For more than 10 years, Amtrak has leased the depot from Union Pacific.
The newspaper stated both companies promised to make improvements, yet the condition of the Cedar Street station has only continued to worsen. Fed up with empty promises and unreturned phone calls, city leaders are now turning to code violations to end the fight.
“It’s unfortunate, but that’s what is in the works,” said Jim Rich of the Beaumont Chamber of Commerce, who was originally hoping to relocate the depot near Crockett Street. That now looks unlikely, Rich said, since Kansas City Southern Railroad is unwilling to grant Amtrak permission to use their downtown tracks.
Mayor Evelyn Lord said she first received letters regarding the deplorable depot shortly after taking office this summer and has been working with City Manager Kyle Hayes to rectify the dangerous situation before someone gets hurt.
“If they are not going to do something about it, then the city will,” she added.
Hayes said the city sent notices to Union Pacific regarding the unkempt lawn, litter and debris on the property several weeks ago and received no response.
“By law, we have to notify the property owner, give them a certain amount of time to abate it. If they do not – which they didn’t – we clean it up and then bill them for it,” he said. “We are in the process of billing them now.”
Twenty-five bags of trash were removed from the property on Monday, Hayes said. However, that evening more trash littered the depot and a homeless man loitered inside. Now the Clean Community department is working with the Fire Marshall’s office to see what building and fire code violations can be found.
“I think we are going to go at it that way to get them to clean up the building and secure it,” Hayes said. “It’s unacceptable the way it is. We are doing everything we can to go after them as far as violations are concerned. If they are not going to fix it, they should just close the building down. It is not serving the city well at all to have the location looking like that with a ‘Welcome to Beaumont’ sign on the side.”
Neither Thomas Mulligan, director of passenger operations for Union Pacific, nor Mark Davis, regional director of public relations, returned phone calls seeking comment on the situation. Pamela Loiacano, of the Clean Community department, said she has had the same problems getting representatives of the railroad to call her back.
“I’ve been trying to get something done since October. I’ve called the railroad, the railroad police. They moved me on to a detective in Fort Worth, who won’t return my phone calls,” she said. “I’ve dealt with the railroads on many occasions, and they are always very difficult to deal with.”
Loiacano said the situation is more difficult to resolve since the property involves an open business.
“When it’s a private, vacant structure, and it’s left open and accessible like that, we can force them to secure it. If they don’t, we can file charges against them,” she said. “The (depot) building doesn’t meet the dilapidated structure requirements in that it is structurally sound. The roof is not about to cave in. Legally, you’ve got to be careful of what you do when you go messing with people’s buildings. We can’t just go in and secure a building that is actually in use. I have to come up with some kind of violation to send them a letter first.”
Earl White, of the Fire Marshall and Arson Investigation office, said he is currently trying to schedule a time to perform an inspection of the property.
“I’ll meet a representative at the property, do an investigation and give them notice of violations,” he said. “They’ll then have 10 working days to take corrective action.”
White would not elaborate on what specifically would happen next if the property were not brought up to code after the 10-day period.
“We will take action and bring them under compliance,” he said. “It’s a difficult situation, and we’re trying to get it corrected.”
“Ultimately, it’s Union Pacific that owns the building and is responsible for the building,” Loiacano added. “If it persists and no one will get back to us, we’ll have to have our legal department handle it.”
Problems with run down, unmanned depots are nothing new for Amtrak. Due to tight budgets and years of operating losses, only five of Texas’ 31 Amtrak stations have attendants. Shortly after last year’s terrorist attacks, even the busy Houston Amtrak station was temporarily locked and unmanned on weekends in an effort to save the company money.
“It’s not an unusual situation,” Amtrak spokesman Kevin Johnson told the Houston Chronicle at the time. “More than half of our stations across our network are unstaffed.”
According to police records, there have been 16 calls in the past two years to report suspicious persons or activity at the local depot. City Attorney Lane Nichols said he hopes it doesn’t take a serious injury on the property to get the railroad companies to take some action.
I finally found a document that had some info on those two Whitcomb center-cab engines.
Diesels 8 and 9 were built in 1943 for the US Army (#7966). 8 went to SIRTA with no other info given. #9 was ex-US Army #7983; was sold to Brighton, Michigan as a mining locomotive. Later ended up at Kingston, NY Railway Museum.
The information was in the souvenir brochure from the DType trip over SBK trackage (1975).
Leave it to Dougie to furnish the info. Thank You! I think we need to expand our SBK collection at BERA, don't you?
-Stef
I concur....gotta speak to the right TSS if ya knows what I mean...heh! ;)
But Doug, You forgot 9..... You do know about 9 don't you?
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Stamford, Conn., leaders are urging Connecticut transportation planners to order new trains immediately rather than wait for results of a study on double-decker cars.
In a letter to state Transportation Strategy Board Chairman R. Nelson “Oz” Griebel, Westport First Selectwoman Diane Farrell said new cars are needed now and should not be delayed by a study expected to verify the double-decker cars would be too costly and unfeasible for Metro-North Railroad’s New Haven Line, according to the December 9 Stamford Advocate.
“Additional rail cars are needed now to meet existing demand, support any growth in ridership and help mitigate congestion in the I-95 corridor,” Farrell said in the letter, endorsed last week by the full membership of the South Western Region Metropolitan Planning Organization, which represents lower Fairfield County’s eight towns.
The Connecticut DOT is conducting a study to determine whether double-deckers could be a solution to overcrowded trains.
The higher coaches can accommodate about 150 passengers; existing trains have a 110-passenger capacity. Double-deckers are used on the Long Island Rail Road but have not been used by Metro-North because they do not fit under the 16-foot tunnels of Grand Central Terminal in New York City. The DOT study is looking to determine whether double-decker cars can be modified to fit under the tunnels.
Farrell warned that any changes to the rail fleet could require costly infrastructure improvements that would have to be paid entirely by the state.
“Given the state’s current fiscal condition, it seems more prudent to invest in rail cars that are compatible with existing infrastructure than to significantly increase the cost of operating commuter rail in Connecticut by redesigning the fleet in such a way as to incur significant capital costs,” Farrell said.
Griebel had not received the letter by December 9, but said the TSB is considering expanding commuter rail service in the state. He said the board is looking at recommendations to provide interim relief until other questions can be answered.
“There are several technological questions we need to answer that could prove to give us more bang for our buck,” Griebel said.
The state recently took delivery of four new diesel locomotives and 10 new coaches at a cost of $35 million. No more rail cars are on order and commuter advocates say the state needs to act fast because it takes six to eight years for delivery of new trains.
The state’s almost 350-car rail fleet is about 30 years old and, according to DOT figures, about 15 percent – 50 cars – are out of service daily for repairs.
New York recently took delivery of half of the 1,266 cars it ordered in 1999 at a cost of $1.7 million each for use on the LIRR and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson lines.
“Obviously, time is of the essence in ordering new cars, given the lag time in getting them built,” said Jim Cameron, vice chairman of the Connecticut Metro-North-Shore Line East Rail Commuter Council. “In the long run, I think the bilevel cars might work, but we need cars desperately, and we need them now.”
Stamford, Conn., leaders are urging Connecticut transportation planners to order new trains immediately rather than wait for results of a study on double-decker cars.
Yes.... that makes sense. Order cars before the study is out, so when the study concludes that the cars are a waste of money (especially someone else's money), then we can conclude that they are a sunk cost and ask for more of someone else's money to modify the infrastructure.
It's most blatant attempt to spend other people's money I've seen yet. I'd like to see someone say the towns can spend their own money if they want to build the railcars before getting the report.
AEM7
Actually, if you read the fine print, the Stamford folks want CDOT to order more of the existing single level cars rather than wait to figure out how you can modify double deckers.
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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The Minneapolis metro area’s first light-rail line is 65 percent complete as winter takes hold and the second construction season ends. Officials report that the Hiawatha Line is on time and within budget, but money continues to be tight.
“The budget is a great concern,” said Ed Hunter, director of the project for the Metropolitan Council. “It’s always been a great concern” reports the Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune.
Work on the line is right on schedule, according to John Caroon, director of the construction project for the Minnesota DOT (MnDOT).
Rails have been installed along the route from Nicollet Mall in downtown Minneapolis to 54th Street in south Minneapolis. An eight-bay maintenance building near East Franklin Avenue is finished and ready to receive its first coach in February or March, and crews are branching out from the maintenance facility, stringing the contact wire.
The budget came under renewed scrutiny last week when the Rail Transit Committee asked the staff to try to find $116,748 to add the Somali language to automatic ticket-vending machines that will serve the line and the coming northwest busway between downtown Minneapolis and Rogers.
Though it’s a relatively small amount compared with the project’s $675 million budget, Hunter said it’s difficult to find an extra $116,748 because the contingency budget for unexpected expenses was only 3.5 percent of the budget, when 10 percent is typical.
“We were skinny to start with. We’ve been against the wall from Day One on this,” he said.
Foes of light rail are closely watching its bottom line, and the legislature passed a law prohibiting the Met Council (which will own and run the line) and MnDOT (which is building it) from adding money to the budget. So even if both agencies could come up with money to solve the ticket-machine controversy, the law prevents them from doing so, according to Hunter.
Taking it from the project’s balance will be difficult because major cuts already have been made to stay within budget, he said. As of October 31, the project’s contingency budget totaled $10.9 million.
A worrisome June forecast predicted that contaminated soils, extra right-of-way costs and consultant fees threatened to put the contingency budget $9.5 million in the red upon completion of the line.
To address that concern, chief of staff Mark Fuhrmann took two rail cars and corridor landscaping out of the budget with the possibility that they could be added back in if the budget picture changes. He also scaled back the use of consultants from $34 million to $15.4 million and refused some design requests by Minneapolis and Bloomington. So Minneapolis and Bloomington paid for $3.8 million worth of enhancements that they wanted included in the project.
(Minneapolis’s contributions included $1.5 million for a redesign of the Lake Street rail bridge and $1.6 million to add a passenger vestibule and escalators at the Lake Street station. Bloomington put in $78,000 for additions to the Mall of America station.)
Fuhrmann reported last week that the adjustments will pull the contingency budget out of the red, but he doesn’t expect there to be contingency money remaining.
So where might money to add the Somali language to ticket machines come from?
Two Met Council members, Saundra Spigner and Frank Hornstein would like to take the estimated $117,000 from the project’s consulting budget.
The staff opposes that suggestion. In fact, Fuhrmann last week recommended adding money back into the consulting budget with URS Corp. and raising its contract from $15.4 million to $16.9 million by taking $1.5 million from the contingency fund.
He said it’s now clear that the consulting service they want to restore is critical to keeping the project on schedule because it would provide the technical expertise needed to set up the radio communication and electrical power systems on the train.
Although the line isn’t scheduled to start running until April 2004, Joe Marie has been hired by Metro Transit as the assistant general manager for rail operations. He directed rail service in Pittsburgh, for the Port Authority of Allegheny County, and is planning the start of service in Minneapolis.
Marie is in the midst of hiring staff to run and maintain the rail line and will direct testing of the first rail car when it arrives. The $2.5 million rail car, which was built more than 2,000 miles away in Mexico, will arrive on a low-bed truck.
In all, 24 cars have been ordered, and 22 will be needed to meet service schedules, Marie said. Initial tests of the first car will take months, and the second, third and fourth cars will not be delivered until tests on the first one are finished.
You can see a picture of installers working on the overhead wire.
Note the bucket trucks are riding on the rails, with the front truck tires lifted off the track by the hydralic guide wheel assembly. A simular assembly is at the rear, but the tires are not lifted.
The inner tire of the rear dual wheels rests on the rails to provide power.
http://www.startribune.com/images/embed/3518829_51732.html
Here is a MAP of the Minneapolis Hiawathia light rail line:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1608/3475984.html
(requires free Flash plug-in)
Could this be a problem for Railfans?
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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The Maryland Transit Administration is offering free passes to plainclothes officers who agree to watch for terrorists and other troublemakers during their commute.
“Our goal is, with heightened concerns about potential threats from the al-Qaeda, or vis-a vis the sniper, to try and have some added eyes and ears out there,” Simon Taylor, manager and chief operating officer of the Maryland Rail Commuter system, said December 10 at the agency’s Point-of-Rocks headquarters.
The FBI warned in October that terrorists have considered targeting U.S. passenger trains.
Taylor said MARC has just one paid security officer covering its 200-mile system and is hoping enough people sign up to provide at least one undercover officer on each of its 86 trains.
The plan is based on a program the neighboring Virginia Railway Express commuter service implemented after the September 11, 2001 attacks.
A Virginia service spokesman, Mark Roeber, said the program has 68 plainclothes officers, including federal marshals and National Park Service employees, and 10 to 20 uniformed police officers.
The program costs VRE $40,000 to $45,000 a year, substantially less than the $65,000 to $70,000 in wages and benefits for a single security officer, Roeber said.
There have been no incidents requiring the undercover commuters to act, Roeber said.
Their obligation “is simply to be our eyes and ears on the train. If something were to happen, we hope they will be able to rise to the occasion and deal with the issue,” Roeber said.
Could this be a problem for Railfans?
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Utah Transit Authority’s TRAX light-rail system is only three years old, but it’s growing up fast. Its trains have become a familiar sight in Salt Lake City. Revenue service on the Sandy Line began three years ago, on December 6, writes the Deseret News.
The north-south Sandy rail line officially began running December 6, 1999. Those who protested prior to its construction are now mostly silent. Its fans, however, are more vocal.
“This is one of the best things that ever happened to downtown,” said Richard Wirick. He has been running the Oxford Shop, a men’s shoe store, for 52 years. He is also an executive board member for the Downtown Merchants Association.
Downtown Alliance leaders are equally enthusiastic.
“It services events very well,” said Alliance events director Tracy von Harten.
Utah Jazz games, concerts and arts festivals have helped pack TRAX cars. Compliments came rolling in, she said, during the 2002 Winter Olympics when TRAX ran into the wee hours – and last year’s First Night New Year’s celebration downtown drew 20,000 riders.
Downtown Alliance executive director Robert Farrington said TRAX has made it easier for people to access downtown and has even staved off gridlock.
“Most business people would say it’s a good thing, better to have it than not,” he said. Over time, he said, TRAX will attract redevelopment along its lines. Though fewer in numbers these days, TRAX detractors still exist, including perennial critic Michael Packard, who would rather see light rail just go away. The reason, according to his research, is that TRAX pulls too many riders from buses and does not generate enough new transit customers to justify its existence.
Today’s bus system, Packard maintains, is run less efficiently and at a higher cost than ever, mainly because of TRAX.
“People have just abandoned the bus system.”
Though TRAX cars are often bursting with riders, Packard says it’s because people are no longer using buses, not even for rides to TRAX stations. He’ll have a hard time, though, convincing UTA general manager John Inglish that TRAX is anything but a raging success.
“We are carrying more than 27,000 people a day and would carry more if we had the capacity,” Inglish said. In fact, UTA is negotiating with a California-based transit authority for the purchase of up to 25 more cars at $250,000 each. “We’re putting more miles on our rail cars than anyone else in the country.”
The people keep riding and UTA keeps spending more money on more miles of rail line. Money spent or budgeted so far:
$312 million for the 15-mile Sandy-Salt Lake line, with 16 stations, funded 80 percent by federal money and 20 percent with a local match.
$118.5 million for the 2.5-mile spur to the University of Utah with four stations, also funded 80 percent by the government and 20 percent locally.
$89.4 million for a 1.5-mile spur (under construction) to University Hospital and Primary Children’s Medical Center with three stations, an expected completion date of late 2004 and a 60/40 federal and local funding split.
UTA is tallying higher-than-projected ridership numbers. UTA officials say they’re seeing more trips than expected by people who live downtown and use TRAX to travel south and those who ride TRAX for reasons other than getting to work, such as shopping and entertainment.
UTA is also trumpeting TRAX as a means toward economic development. Cities are planning for transit-oriented developments while UTA is marketing surplus land along its rail corridor for private development. A possible result: More people who use light rail will end up living closer to TRAX stations.
Five people have died in light-rail accidents in the past three years. Four of the fatalities were pedestrians; one was in an automobile.
Could this be a problem for Railfans?
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Richardson, Texas officials are celebrating the opening of the Bush Turnpike light-rail station six months after the city’s other three Dallas Area Rapid Transit stations opened. There was a time they didn’t know whether it would ever exist.
“We knew there was a need for a station somewhere between Galatyn Park and Plano’s station on 15th Street to pick up all that traffic from [the turnpike],” Mayor Gary Slagel said.
Plano and Richardson agreed the best spot would be just south of the turnpike, with parking under the lanes. There was lots of open land and room beneath the turnpike for a huge parking lot, according to The Dallas Morning News of December 8.
DART examined the cities’ proposal but labeled the station ”deferred,” saying it wouldn’t build it for several years. Construction was moved up when Hunt Petroleum Corp. donated the land.
Now, DART officials are evaluating Richardson’s request for a station at Main Street that is not on DART’s plan even as a deferred station.
“We start a major investment study early on to determine stations’ potential impact on traffic and development,” said Doug Allen, DART executive vice president.
“We end up with a plan for where the line and the stations will be, which will have parking and which won’t.”
Allen said DART didn’t immediately see a good fit. Officials reconsidered when they saw what could be accomplished at Galatyn Park.
Galatyn Park, too, was at first a deferred station, but Richardson officials worked with the landowner and developers to show they could make Galatyn Park a place where people would go.
When the station opened in July, Galatyn Park had a full- service hotel, a public plaza and a performing arts hall. A landowner plans to build office, retail and apartments on a large adjacent tract.
The same company, Hunt Petroleum, owns the property at the Bush Turnpike Station and plans a similar mix of uses there.
City officials have high expectations for the Hunt properties, though they aren’t developing as quickly as was hoped before the economy soured.
The city has considerably more control over development at the Spring Valley and Arapaho Center stations, leading it to undertake the city’s most extensive land planning exercise ever.
The city has hired consultants, brought together landowners and engaged residents in breaking the mold on ways public places can be assembled. Richardson officials want to mix things up and put homes, offices, stores, restaurants and entertainment all within walking distance of the stations.
These ideas may not take shape for a decade, but thinking forward has gotten DART’s attention.
“Richardson’s attitude with DART has been good from the very beginning. They’ve been out there making things happen,” said Ray Noah, who represents Richardson on the DART board of directors.
Mr. Noah said this is likely to earn Richardson the coveted Main Street station, across Greenville Avenue from the China Town shopping center. Richardson is planning for development in that area with all the fervor it’s aiming at the Spring Valley and Arapaho stations and has even obtained federal funding for construction.
“I’m optimistic the city and DART will be able to put that thing [the Main Street station] in place when the economy recovers,” Mr. Noah said. “DART will be receptive to helping good things happen in the rail corridor. If the city’s trying to put in a station, and they’ve got their act together, DART’s going to make that happen.”
Officials hope to revive the city’s old downtown with small-scale development. They see opportunities for large-scale redevelopment at China Town shopping center, Harwood International and Richardson Heights Village Shopping Center. They envision a public plaza at Main Street and Greenville Avenue and parking structures to alleviate congestion.
“Main may have some of the best components going for it of any station around,” City Manager Bill Keffler said.
[“Richardson’s attitude with DART has been good from the very beginning. They’ve been out there making things happen,” said Ray Noah, who represents Richardson on the DART board of directors.]
Compare that with the folks in Arlington, who reportedly want DART service but refuse to tax themselves to pay for it.
Could this be a problem for Railfans?
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) received a birthday present on December 2 from regional transportation officials: A look at the monorail under construction along the Strip, a system that Reid is working to expand with federal dollars.
The visit to the monorail construction site, reported the Las Vegas Sun, was the first in about six months for Reid, who has been a stalwart backer of federal funding for mass transit programs in Southern Nevada.
The monorail route under construction runs south from Sahara Avenue and will connect with the 1.5-mile monorail line linking Bally’s and the MGM Grand. Reid, Democratic Senate whip, is negotiating with the Bush administration in an effort to bring home $150 million more to extend the line north from Sahara to downtown.
The funding, if it comes, would provide much of the $350 million needed to bring the monorail downtown, transportation officials said. The rest would come from a government loan and sales of bonds, Regional Transportation Commission General Manager Jacob Snow said.
The $650 million privately funded line already under construction is scheduled to carry passengers in early 2004. The officials told Reid that test runs of the monorail could begin early next year.
“There will be a lot of tourists wondering why there are empty trains going back and forth for six miles” next year, said Tom Butterfield, monorail installation supervisor for Bombardier Transportation, the major contractor for the construction.
Reid, who turned 63 a fortnight ago, said the monorail and similar programs such as a proposed light-rail commuter train from Henderson to the south end of the Strip represent the future of transportation in the area.
“It used to be the belief that we could solve all our transportation problems by building more roads,” he said.
“That cannot be done. It is so good that we’re doing other things. If we’re really going to help people... we’ve got to do other things.”
He gestured at the dusty interior of the new control and power center at Sahara and Paradise Road.
“This is the state of the art in mass transportation today, right here all around us,” Reid said.
Progress on the grand vision of a monorail extends beyond the workers busy bringing together the steel and concrete.
The RTC’s Snow said he expects the federal government to open up for public comment this month a draft environmental impact statement on the monorail extension to downtown.
The monorail route under construction runs south from Sahara Avenue and will connect with the 1.5-mile monorail line linking Bally’s and the MGM Grand.
I'll be in Las Vegas for a few days in early February, on my way home from California. I'll get some photos of what they did so far. One thing puzzles me. The current monorail doesn't have automatic doors on the run between Bally's and the MGM Grand. I remember a few years back that all the doors had to be closed by hand. Are they going to get newer trains in which that won't be necessary? Out of all the systems they have in Las Vegas (Bellagio to Monte Carlo, Treasure Island to The Mirage) the MGM Grand to Bally's seems to be the most antiquated (probably because it is).
BTW, where is the current under construction extension being extented to?
Yes,they are going to get newer cars with automated doors.
The two trains presently on the MGM-Bally's section came from Walt Disney World, and are slated to be retired when all the new trains go into service. They were originally built in 1981, and rebuilt in 1995.
The two trains presently on the MGM-Bally's section came from Walt Disney World
They did? Wow, I even thought of Disney WOrld when I rode them. They look like the WDW monorail system. So they went from the "Happiest Place on Earth" to "Sin City". I kind of thought they may have come form there. Almost everyone on the monorail had a beer or drink in their hands (including me), and I remember thinking, "This isn't the Walt Disney World Monorail......."
But even the new cars will be nothing but Dizzyland monorails, they just happen to be built by Bombardier, brand new. They're even called the same thing, Diney's was the Mark 6, Conbardiers is the MVI, or M6. If you look at the Bombardier, and then at the Dizzy monorails, they're practically identical. Las Vegas is getting fleeced big time, bombardier is pulling the wool over their eyes by selling them an outdated, passenger unfriendly, screwwed up monorail. They aren't even true Alwegs, only two main wheels per car, only 5 per bogie, sheesh. The only group that seems to be anywhere close to what Alweg had 40 years ago with the seattle monorail is Hitachi, which basically ripped off Alweg years back and has built them for all fo japan ever since then.
Still, I'd say that the Las Vegas monorail is a step in the wrong direction for those of use who want to see it finally have it's day in the sun. It's placing it in another place where we go for fun, further enhancing the 'Theme Park' stereotype of the monorail. Railfans may balk at people who insist on calling trains 'Choo Choos,' I balk at people who say, "Oh yeah, I've ridden monorails, the Disney one." Monorails are SO friggin superior to nearly all forms of elevated transit, yet so far only two cities seem to have caught on to this, Seattle and Las Vegas, and all Las Vegas is getting is a another Theme Park monorail. Seattle ain't much better, but at least theirs is a real commuter system, 14 miles long, linking the northwest and southwest sides of the city, through the CBD.
BTW: don't bother replying to this message, I'm overdue for a post on the Seattle Greenline Monorail, you can yell at me there.
Here are three pictures we took of the monorail when we passed through Vegas on our cross country car trip last August. The third picture is of my 6 yr old son Arthur. I was shocked that the monorail cars weren't air-conditioned considered it was 110 degrees that day and the cars have closed windows. I assume it was a malfunction and that it usually does have A/C. By the way, after Vegas there was a lot of railfanning on the way home, hundreds of freight trains on I-80 in Utah, Wyoming, & Nebraska, then 3 days after Vegas we were driving under the Chicago El.
By the way, these will be deleted from my angelfire site in a few days for space.
>>>The third picture is of my 6 yr old son Arthur<<<
He's 6 already?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, time flies. By the way, since I occasionally take him to Branford when I volunteer as an operator, he has been telling everyone he works at the trolley museum!!!
The a/c must have been malfunctioning, I've always had nice, cool rides on the LV monorial even in the blazing heat.
Gotta remember, those trains were built in 1981, rebuilt in 1995. And they both have a million miles on them going 'round in circles at Walt Disney World.
A Hopefully more Up to date article from Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12162002.shtml
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Nearly 900 workers at General Motors Corp.’s London, Ontario locomotive operations were given layoff notices on December 6, as orders for the railway units have dried up, according to a Canadian Press report that appeared in the Toronto Globe and Mail.
The move will slash the Canadian Auto Workers work force at the factory by 62 per cent, said Terry Mason, chairman of CAW local 27. Labor law dictates the company must give workers 16 weeks’ notice of a layoff of more than 500 people, but workers won’t be off the job until March 31, which gives GM’s Electro-Motive Division time to land more orders.
The southwestern Ontario plant, part of a GM complex that earned widespread attention for a $6-billion deal to supply armored vehicles to the U.S. Army, has had little success bringing in new work for EMD. There are no orders coming in to keep the rail line running past next spring, said Chris Dennett, a GM spokesman.
“Due to a slowdown in locomotive orders, we don’t have a choice but to announce layoffs,” he said, adding, “It’s a business decision, and the timing is very unfortunate.”
“We want to make the point we are very optimistic about our ability to bring in new business in 2003,” Dennett said. “We know we have the technology. We make the product the rail industry wants.” There is less demand for locomotives now because consolidation in the railway industry has left fewer companies to buy the units. The plant now employs a total of 2,878 people.
BTW. GM Defense has agree to sell for cash its GM Defense Division today. So it's locomotive workers can't really work next door to keep busy.
Has anyone looked at the new proposals for the WTC? I have, and my stomach hasn't stopped turning yet.
Doesn't anyone know how to draw a straight line anymore? What's with all of the twisty, helix shapes? Don't these bubbleheaded designers know that these building are meant to be USED by companies for office space. How are architects supposed to incorporate office space into twisting, curving structures? And how about those buildings that look like tic tac toe boards? It would be laughable if these guys weren't serious about that.
And what's with all the glass? Do these guys know how HOT glass buildings would be in the summer and how much energy it would take to air condition them? And how about that design for that 1800 foot tower? What a corker. Can you imagine that monstrosity blighting the city landscape?
If these designs were produced by some of the finest architectural minds, I shudder to think what the city could look like a century from now. Whatever happened to the timeless classic designs like the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building and the Woolworth Building? Even the clean, simple yet dignified design of the original WTC would be preferable to what's been proposed.
I'm beginning to think that the best design for the WTC rebuild is to rebuild them exactly as they were, with all modern safety systems built in.
I loved the new designs, more innovative, more spectacular, more risk taking, except the one that looks like a giant tic tac toe board. The one thats the giant one tower, or the World Cultural Center, got my picks, I want a tall building. Sky Park I also like, whatever happens, we're getting a tall building. Which makes me happy
>>> I loved the new designs, more innovative, more spectacular, more risk taking <<<
I agree with you on that. I only caught a glimpse of the designs on TV so I have not studied them, but the first set did nothing for me.
Tom
Why do you want a tall building so badly?
Cause NYC is all about Tall Buildings, we are the sky scraper capitol of the world, and we've always had the strongest, most beautiful, the most sky scrapers in the world. I won't let 9/11 stop me from wanting NYC to get the tallest building in the world. These designs are beatiful, they give us the tallest towers in the world, and they respect the footprints and give proper memorials to the victims of 9/11. I want tall, this city loves it tall, and since I want to become an architectual engineer, I have a passiont for the best, for pushing the envelope. These designs do just that.
Who do you think is going to want to move into any office building that has more than say 60 floors? Very few.
I kinda of like the design with the 2 lattice work towers with midrise buildings around them. Although I can't see why these towers have to be 1,665 feet high.
As one of my collegues says - after the buildings are completed they have to make sure they out the bullseye target on them. Funny but I see his point.
Who do you think is going to want to move into any office building that has more than say 60 floors? Very few.
Many people.
A common misconception is that everyone ELSE doesn't want to work in the upper floors of a new supertall building. This is total bunk. A majority of people have expressed a desire to have a new WTC as tall or taller than before and most of these people would be glad to work in the top of such a tower. Unfortunately, the necrocrats have brainwashed a significant portion of the population into thinking that they are the only ones brave enough for a supertall building and everyone else is a coward.
If people were really afraid of supertall buildings, then how come companies aren't streaming to get out of leases in supertall buildings like the Sears Tower or the Empire State Building?
In the Listening to the City online dialogues that took place this summer, a poll found that 40% of people wanted a tower taller than before and that 20% wanted one as tall. So a clear majority of people who chose to vote want to build as tall or taller. Only 8% said "Not as Tall."
Hell ... in most cities, hook and ladders can only reach to the fifth or sixth floor. In New York City, I *think* the tallest building a "super" hook and ladder can reach is the TENTH ... so therefore, if you're working on the 11th floor or higher, you can die. Seems 55 stories is the "usual" height and nobody's afraid to work in those. Once you're above ten, the risks are pretty much the same.
>>> Once you're above ten, the risks are pretty much the same. <<<
Not really true. Firefighters will get to the twelfth floor much quicker than they will get to the 112th Floor, and will have more energy to fight a fire when they get there. Also each floor below your floor increases the chances you will be trapped above a fire.
Tom
I did intend the words "pretty much the same" to indicate some variability, but of course you're right. THANKFULLY though, we've seen the days of "go upward" and "evacuate to the designated fire floor" be reconsidered. But where 50+ stories is the norm, 110 isn't all that much more risky in ordinary circumstances. That, in a rather roundabout way, was what I was trying to say.
"But where 50+ stories is the norm, 110 isn't all that much more risky in ordinary circumstances."
The perceived risk is that someone will be able to pull the same trick with a plane again (which I personally doubt very much; they'll try something else). In a 50 story building you're safe because they can't find you among all the other 50 story buildings.
Also, to be economical, a 110 story building has to be built lighter than a 50 story building. They didn't put stairwells with masonry walls a foot thick (like many buildings have) into the WTC towers because they would have cost too much.
Even with today's technology, it may be too expensive to have 110 story concrete stairwells that are not vulnerable to an airplane or a truck bomb in the right place.
Remember though, I said "ordinary circumstances" ... under "ordinary circumstances" we'd still have two towers standing. And while masonry may not be practical for the height, there are other alternatives but I won't bother with that. Personally, I don't like tall buildings. I think a THIRD floor is too damned high, but then I live upstate. But once you're up 55, then 110 isn't all that terribly much more. Under ORDINARY circumstances. :)
I don't think ANY design would suffice for an act of terrorism, and if a building was SYMBOLIC (which is what these folks go for) then a rebuilt WTC would be a target if it was TWO floors high. The UN building is a potential target. For all we know, Papaya King could be a target in someone's mind and it could be hit by a plane in a steep dive mode of someone wanted to take it out.
What I see a number of folks missing is that a big bada$$ revitalized WTC would probably attract MORE tenants than the original, just for the prestige and defiance of being able to make commercials showing their offices in the new building saying, "Proud to be Americans." Ya never know ...
In a 50 story building you're safe because they can't find you among all the other 50 story buildings.
What about 50 story buildings that face large parks, bays or rivers?
What about the last 50 story buildings before it's time for the density to go down?
Unless you decide to abandon New York and move to gigantic underground bunkers, then there will always be a target.
They didn't put stairwells with masonry walls a foot thick (like many buildings have) into the WTC towers because they would have cost too much.
Masonry stairwells are standard practice in just about every skyscraper in the country, and are actually required by law in most large cities. I know for a fact that the stairwells in both the Sears Tower and the Hancock Center are all masonry, because I've personally been inside them.
The simple fact is that the designers of the WTC cut every corner imaginable because they could get away with it. Why? Because the towers were built by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and were therefore exempt from NYC building codes (which are actually among the toughest in the nation). In other words, the government built the WTC as cheaply and sloppily as they could, while thumbing their noses at the same regulations that every other builder is required by law to follow.
This much was obvious as far back as the first bombing in 1993, when what should have been an orderly evacuation became mass chaos because the WTC lacked crucial life safety equipment and procedures. What is becoming more obvious with the continuing investigations after 9/11 is that the WTC probably would have remained standing if not for some penny-pinching on the part of the Port Authority during design and construction (i.e., stairwells built of flimsy sheetrock, the use of only a single bolt to anchor the floor trusses to the exterior structure, etc.).
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
(What is becoming more obvious with the continuing investigations after 9/11 is that the WTC probably would have remained standing if not for some penny-pinching on the part of the Port Authority during design and construction (i.e., stairwells built of flimsy sheetrock, the use of only a single bolt to anchor the floor trusses to the exterior structure, etc.).)
That is a pretty serious charge. I think it is as likely, and more troubling, that many buildings are less robust than the WTC, and might be felled by a tractor trailer full of fertilizer and diesel a-la McVeigh.
That is a pretty serious charge.
This should not be surprising. Reread the cover article from the NY Times Magazine from this past September 8th.
Since neither the New York Times Archive nor Lexis-Nexis tells you which is the cover story, are you by any chance talking about "The Height of Ambition" by James Glanz and Eric Lipton?
Yes
The simple fact is that the designers of the WTC cut every corner imaginable because they could get away with it. Why? Because the towers were built by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and were therefore exempt from NYC building codes (which are actually among the toughest in the nation). In other words, the government built the WTC as cheaply and sloppily as they could, while thumbing their noses at the same regulations that every other builder is required by law to follow.
This much was obvious as far back as the first bombing in 1993, when what should have been an orderly evacuation became mass chaos because the WTC lacked crucial life safety equipment and procedures. What is becoming more obvious with the continuing investigations after 9/11 is that the WTC probably would have remained standing if not for some penny-pinching on the part of the Port Authority during design and construction (i.e., stairwells built of flimsy sheetrock, the use of only a single bolt to anchor the floor trusses to the exterior structure, etc.).
How true. I suppose we could say that the whole thing was a learning experience, but unfortunately the cost was a little bit too high (though many of the 3,000 dead probably would have been doomed in any event). We also could say that the replacement buildings will be better and more safely designed, but inasmuch as the site is likely to be a weedy hole in the ground a decade from now, that's sort of pointless too.
NYC as BANANAland.
Then why dont you move your company up to the top of the building. I know me and my co workers dont want to go back to any tall buildings. We made sure our current location was on the lowest floors possible.
Your company is just one of many. Probably small and insignificant too.
If I had a company, I would be the first in line to rent at the new World Trade Center. By the time the complex is rebuilt it will be 2010 or even later, and most of the post 9/11 acrophobiacs will have forgotten the reason for their fear and will move on (or they'll retire and won't matter anymore).
Capitalism always triumphs over baseless fear.
As an example of forgetfulness, the period where Battery Park City had to offer steep discounts to get people to rent the apartments vacated by those who couldn't stand living there any more was only a few months. Pretty soon they went back to market rents because they found plenty of bargain hunters.
The more likely cause for buildings that aren't excessively high is a capitalistic one. Very tall buildings are more expensive to build per square foot, especially if you build good safety features (useful totally independent of terorism) like stairwells with thick concrete walls.
the period where Battery Park City had to offer steep discounts to get people to rent the apartments vacated by those who couldn't stand living there any more was only a few months. Pretty soon they went back to market rents because they found plenty of bargain hunters.
Well, people who agree to live in BPC for at least two years are getting several hundred dollars per month in subsidy ... it still amounts to a discount to entice people, it just doesn't manifest itself as a lower asking rent.
Very tall buildings are more expensive to build per square foot, especially if you build good safety features (useful totally independent of terorism) like stairwells with thick concrete walls.
Very tall buildings often become landmarks and prestigious addresses, which fetch higher rents per square foot and could help justify the higher construction costs (although I'm not sure what the case is now, when some companies would probably rather avoid locating themselves in a well-known landmark building).
Heck, you could go one further. There's one WTC proposal that has a building standing about 2,130 feet or some 500 feet higher than the tallest building in the world and almost 800 feet higher than the old twin towers. Do we REALLY have to go that high up to make a point??? I wonder if we'll get nosebleeds working that high up...
No, but in the even the air conditioning were to shut down, oxygen masks WOULD drop out of the ceiling. :)
Geee, at that height, if you said "Oh my God", you might get an answer.
>>> Cause NYC is all about Tall Buildings, we are the sky scraper capitol of the world, and we've always had the strongest, most beautiful, the most sky scrapers in the world <<<
When I read your post, the image of an adolescent checking the guy next to him at a urinal flashed through my mind.
In my opinion, the skyline looked better before the WTC was built, with smaller (but still tall) buildings at the tip of Manhattan, and the real skyscrapers in midtown. It gives the island more balance.
Tom
It gives the island more balance.
Actually, The Twin towers gave each part of the island matching structures.
WTC=Empire State
Chrysler=American international
1 Chase Manhattan=Metlife bldg.
They had perfect balance.
he wrote:
It gives the island more balance.
----
then you wrote:
Actually, The Twin towers gave each part of the island matching structures.
WTC=Empire State
Chrysler=American international
1 Chase Manhattan=Metlife bldg.
They had perfect balance.
----
now i write:
Yeah i agree....once of the most disconcerting things for me about looking at Manhattan after september 11th was that the empire state building was all alone, as opposed to in the old days when you could see it facing the WTC towers across the city. i can still point to the approximate angle between the two structures along the skyline from where i live in brooklyn
These may sound like sarcastic questions, but they're not meant to be.
I too have read that many people would want to have the tallest buildings in the world to be built at ground zero.
But I have also read the opposite - citing concerns about fears, etc..
And I even read that Larry Silverstein, the owner, will only build what he thinks is the most economical design for his own interest. Considering that he will probably receive half of what he was expecting from the insurance people, this doesn't sound too far fetched. Greedy? Maybe. Selfish? Maybe also.
That said, I have some questions. If the company you would work for would decide to lease space in the upper floors of this future "world's tallest" skyscraper, would you move up there without any hesitation?
Also, if some kind of "building fund" were set up to help pay for the costs of building the world's largest building, would you be willing to contribute to such a fund?
Remember, this is based on the assumption that Mr Silverstein is not willing to pay for the huge costs involved resulting from both construction and the income lost from the time it would take to build such a structure.
Just curious.
1) Maybe some hesitation, but if the building's been up and running for more than a year without a problem, probably no hesitation
2) Absolutely.
(1) My only hesitation would be my implied support of such a silly idea. Tall code-compliant buildings are quite safe and I love the view.
(2) Never. "World's tallest buildings" always precede economic crashes. If Silverstein's not building "tallest", it's for a good economic reason (i.e., he's in NYC in a recession and not in Midtown). I would not contribute to such a cheap arrogant gesture when the schools and transit are going begging.
That said, I have some questions. If the company you would work for would decide to lease space in the upper floors of this future "world's tallest" skyscraper, would you move up there without any hesitation?
Also, if some kind of "building fund" were set up to help pay for the costs of building the world's largest building, would you be willing to contribute to such a fund?
Yes, and Yes (via taxes)
Silverstein does not *own* the building or the building site, he leased the WTC on a 99?year lease (standard for city buildings such as this), so he has some right under his still valid lease (presuming he *is* keeping up with the payments ;-)
The WTC was and is owned by the Port Authority, and they built the first one out of thier own pockets, they can do the rebuild likewise.
That being said... A memorial of some sort: "yes"; that makes those two acres of land sacred and out of bounds in the construction project: "NO!"
Elias
That said, I have some questions. If the company you would work for would decide to lease space in the upper floors of this future "world's tallest" skyscraper, would you move up there without any hesitation?
Also, if some kind of "building fund" were set up to help pay for the costs of building the world's largest building, would you be willing to contribute to such a fund?
Yes.
No.
Pictures of the 7 new plans are at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2587707.stm
I actually LIKE the Peterson Littenberg Plan! Seems that most people are voting for Foster on the BBC site - quelle surprise, he is British, even though he has no talent - and quite a lot are voting for the tacky tasteless over-hyped Think effort.
Check out the NY Times' three articles and the Interactive (on the right side of the page) of all the WTC plans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/nyregion/19REBU.html
The Lower Manhattan Development Corp.also has info on the plans:
http://www.renewnyc.com/plan_des_dev/wtc_site/new_design_plans/default.asp
even though he has no talent
He certainly does have talent. Go take a look at his HSBC building in Hong Kong; it is one of the most exciting buildings built in the second half of the twentieth century.
Exterior by night
Escalator Up To Banking Hall
Can't say I like what I've seen (web sites only) of his WTC proposal though.
The same guy who designed the greatest eye-sore in London - City Hall:
http://www.unavuelta.com/Santiago/Arquitectura/London_City_Hall/Principal.htm
From the BBC... "Ken Livingstone and the Greater London Authority have moved into their new home, a futuristic structure beside Tower Bridge that has been likened to an egg, a fencing mask - and even once described as a "glass testicle" by Mr Livingstone."
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2129199.stm)
IIRC he also designed a bridge across the Thames with a tendency to wobble.
Other vile Foster buildings:
- Stansted Airport
- Canary Wharf Station
- The Reichstag refurb with the leaky roof
- Bexley Business Academy (under construction)
- Cranfield University Library
- Daewoo Electronics HQ
- University of Cambridge Faculty of Law
- The new Wembley Stadium (if it's ever built)
Okay, it was a little harsh to say he has no talent - it takes a lot to design a flaccid bridge near to a "glass testicle", but quite frankly it's mainly vile.
That is a strange looking city hall, sort of hard to believe it when you first see it. And the Millennium Bridge is not very spectacular. I didn't feel too comfortable walking across it (on my only rainy day in London).
Pray tell, what architecture school did you graduate from? Cornell? Yale? How did you rank in your class? What other architects have you apprenticed under, and what architects have you collaborated with in your own practice? What notable projects have you completed recently? What design awards have you won?
Speaking as somebody who has toured Norman Foster's office and corresponded with him personally, I think you're way off-base in your bashing of his skills. It's one thing to not care for his style of design, as that's mainly a matter of taste. But for a (presumably) non-architect to say he has no talent is absurd, and frankly quite insulting to those of us who have gone through architecture school and lived to tell about it. I personally can't stand most of the music Elvis ever put out, but you'll never hear me deny he had musical talent.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Norman Foster was the same guy who also wanted to build the "Millenium Tower" in Tokyo, which would measure in at a whopping 2,755 feet high! Found that out in a book about skyscrapers.
Heh. The "Lava lamp" one looked ridiculous, as did the gigantic pair of slinkies. We've gone from "commercial space with a tasteful memorial" to full tilt monuments. There were some even sillier ones that didn't get shown. At the rate the debate is raging on which monument will be built, I suspect the 2nd Avenue subway will be finished ahead of it. :(
I don't know. Call me sick, but I like the TIC TAC TOE one.
Peace,
ANDE
You're not alone ... a silly appearing structure, but those horizontal members would be USEFUL if there was another attack down the road and would probably also be practical for other purposes. Ugly thing though, but not as silly as some of the others. Some of the other designs look like structural failure in progress, and that one that looks like a giant lava lamp ... well ...
I'd say back to the drawing board again ... maybe some SUBTALKERS could design something - it'd sure beat rearranging the D train. :)
and that one that looks like a giant lava lamp ... well ...
LOL, yeah just what New York needs, a giant phallic symbol right at the tip of Manhattan.
If it's a phallic symbol we need, just cruise up on Amtrak to Rensselaer and look at the top of Joey's train station. Whoops! Almost on topic! :)
I know it was a joke, but that FIRST piece of artwork that circulated here a couple of days after 9/11 that looked like a big hand with finger extended towards Mecca was the best design I've seen so far.
.
Some of the other designs look like structural failure in progress, and that one that looks like a giant lava lamp
Yeah, the United Architects design (lava lamp) was pretty silly.
Two of the designs by THINK featured those 'slinkies'. One is supposed to put the tribute in lights back in the sky.
Keep in mind these are concepts to give ideas for the final plan.
tic tac toe...A$LL the way.
Peace,
ANDEE
And how about that design for that 1800 foot tower? What a corker. Can you imagine that monstrosity blighting the city landscape?
Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Dec 19 07:04:39 1929
And how about that design for that 1250 foot tower with the dirigible mooring mast? What a corker. Can you imagine that monstrosity blighting the city landscape?
In retrospect, I shouldn't have attributed my fake 1929 post to Mitch45, I should have made up a name.
So even though I can't edit the page I just posted, please assume that I used the name Joe72 instead.
And what's wrong with dirigibles? :)
I don't know. Ask someone in Lakehurst, New Jersey.
Oh, a wise guy, huh? Why I oughta ... heh. It'd be plenty modern up here though. :)
Jeff: I'm not one hundred percent certain but I believe that the huge dirigible hangers at Lakehurst still stand. Our first two airships were quartered there; the "SHENANDOAH (LZ-1) and the LOS ANGELES (LZ-3). For many years Lakehurst was the home of the US Navy's lighter-than-air program.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Did it ever occur to anyone that if the incident in Lakehurst happened a few years later (like 1942) we would have been cheering the event?
Except that by 1942 we were at war with Germany. (Japan bombs Pearl Harbor December 7 1941, Congress declares war with Japan on December 8, Germany declares war on the United States on December 9, war resolution is amended to include all Axis powers on December 10.)
Any German aircraft would be shot down long before it reached land, Hindenburg included.
That's what I meant!
Jeff: If you watch the film of the Hindenburg exploding what is really remarkable is how many survived; 62 out of 97. Several factors contributed to this. When the first explosion occured and the ship started to settle by the stern, Captain Max Pruss resisted the normal instinct to dump ballast aft to raise the ship. By letting it settle to the ground he provided the means for many of those onboard to leap to safety. A second factor was the presence of a well trained group of brave men, namely the sailors of the US Navy. Under the leadership of a veteran airshipman; Chief Petty Officer Frederick J "Bull" Tobin,
the navy men stood fast and were able to quickly pull the survivors from the flaming debris.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Ain't nothing wrong with Dirigibles, just got a bad name is all. Twas all a conspiracy by the airlines, out to kill the (then) faster Dirigibles between NJ and Germany and force everybody on the hot, crowded and small Seaplanes to go back and forth to Europe!
Course they had a lot of help. The US wouldn't give Germany Helium, cause you can use it to do nuclear research of some kind. The Germans were stupid, cause they actually used a dope on the body that we now use for ROCKET FUEL. In addition, the Germans actually went ahead with the filling of it with Hydrogen, sheer insanity, a hydrogen filled rocket fuel covered envelope! Yes, this is a good idea. Admittedly, these were Nazis, not really Germans, Germans are logical, organized and meticulous. Nazis are like the Mr. Hyde version of germans, they just run around killing and plundering (and yes, much much worse things [gotta avoid pulling a Lott]). So if the Nazis national project is threated by America who wont give them Helium, then the Nazi just say, "Ugg, Me use Hydrogen," and move on.
If you look at the film, it's not the hydrogen burning, it's the skin that does all the damage, the hydrogen leaks out the top once the envelope burns off, some of it will ignite, making a pretty little fireball coming out the top, but most of that fireball would quickly spread out the top, lighting most of the hydrogen above the Hindenberg.
And then theres that insane reporter from the Radio that was there. You cannot tell me that he wasn't in cahoots with the Airlines. He says something along the lines of, "Oh this has to be the worst tragedy in all the world." Gimme a break, the Titanic was hundreds of times worse, but did we stop sailing, hell no, we kept sailing, into ice no less! It was carrying 97 people that day, 62 survived, those aren't bad odds. Certainly not the "Worst Tragedy in all the world" (or some similar huge exageration) as reported by the reporter. Heck, for some reason the Space Shuttle is still flying, even though it was about the same age when it's big disaster occured, and it had an even higher fatality rate, 100%. But that's NASA, so logic need not apply, sometimes I wonder if even Keplers laws apply to Nasa space missions.
The truth is is that the Hindenberg would have burst into flames whether or not it was filled with hydrogen, that skin provided all the fuel it would ever need to bring the ship down. Also the skin was in contact with the oxygen, it should be remembered that Hydrogen is a non-flammable gas when no oxygen is present, and the hydrogen was contained in the bladders, away from the oxygen. It was just bad luck with static electricity discharge and poor choice in materials to cover the exterior. Hydrogen was really about the least of hindenberg's problems, it would have lit if it had been filled with helium gas.
Half-way intelligent discussion of the Hindenberg disaster.
Yep, agreed ... and as any firefighter would tell you, if it was HYDROGEN burning ... "what flame?" It's INVISIBLE. That's why you carry a broomstick for hydrogen fires (or IR viewer to see the flame front) because your EYEBALLS won't see the flame until they're burning.
One nation, in dirigible, fill in your own joke ...
And what's wrong with dirigibles
Selkirk: There's nothing wrong with dirigibles. I voted for several of them in the last election. They won all seats in Zepplelinheim.
Larry, RedbirdR33
??And what's with all the glass? Do these guys know how HOT glass buildings would be in the summer and how much energy it would take to air condition them? And how about that design for that 1800 foot tower? What a corker. Can you imagine that monstrosity blighting the city landscape?<<
I semi agree with you. There is nothing wrong with a building thats 1800 feet tall, but if its all glass then no one would want to look at it. Remember, glass reflects so anything as tall as the Twin towers(in this case taller) would have the potential to blind us all. Wouldnt it be better just to make the ORIGINAL twin towers just without the trusses? To me its logical. I would never want to have to stare at a all glass building in the summer(or any other season for that matter).
>>> There is nothing wrong with a building thats 1800 feet tall, but if its all glass then no one would want to look at it. Remember, glass reflects so anything as tall as the Twin towers(in this case taller) would have the potential to blind us all. <<<
Modern "glass" buildings usually use a highly reflective surface, more like a one way mirror than a window to reduce the air conditioning load in the building. The reflected light may bother people in the street, but more seriously, can also reflect additional heat to nearby buildings increasing their air conditioning costs, bringing up the question of whether the new building's reflection is trespassing on the older buildings causing damages that the new building's owner must pay for.
Tom
What is the building going to do with the light?
It can either absorb it or reflect it. There isn't an option #3.
Actually, option 3 is to let the light into the building (good thing) and not the heat (bad thing). Heat-reflective glass that doesn't reflect light is now standard design. You don't see those Houston-style mirror-glass buildings any more, but new buildings always reflect heat or the utility companies would stick the owners with mega peak utility pricing. Not to mention humungous air conditioning units.
That's good to know.
What material does that type of glass use?
Sorry I haven't posted - I'm working on a two inch computer screen. The American product is called Solarban, and to get the effect of shading 4/5 of the sunlight causes a grayish look from the outside that cuts the sunlight by about half. You can see it from the outside on north windows as a kind of steely color -- the coating is usually used on the inside face of the outer pane (generally all outside windows are two panes sealed together).
P.S. I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but I lost control. Norman Foster is the only one of the six I can stomach, and I feel about a tall building on that site exactly the way I feel about that "finger" building that (Selkirk, I think) reminded us was posted days after 9/11. Arrogant. And even Foster got his notoriety by building the most expensive building (per square foot) in history (the Hong Kong Bank building). This is all eye candy for the front page of the Post and none of them will look anything like what you're looking at.
Arrogance is good.
America should be proud it has so many things to be arrogant about.
The only people who complain about arrogance are those who have nothing to be arrogant about and are jealous, like all those people who complain about US policy (if they don't like US policy, they should shut up and form their own superpower).
>>> America should be proud it has so many things to be arrogant about. <<<
You got it wrong as usual. America has many things to be proud of, but should not be arrogant about any of them.
>>> if they don't like US policy, they should shut up and form their own superpower <<<
Or possibly fly airplanes into tall buildings in lower Manhattan to get the attention of those too arrogant to pay any attention to anything but themselves. The idea that we can control the world through naked power is the dream of a fool. That is what concerns me about the present situation in Washington.
Tom
RIGHT ON,TOM!!!
I agree, Tom.....
Actually I've always thought it was a great feature to reflect the light. Some of the blocks downtown that otherwise would be in near-perpetual darkness (thanks to the narrow unaligned streets and masonry-clad buildings around it) become at least indirectly lit thanks to modern office buildings with reflective glass.
Doesn't anyone know how to draw a straight line anymore? What's with all of the twisty, helix shapes? Don't these bubbleheaded designers know that these building are meant to be USED by companies for office space. How are architects supposed to incorporate office space into twisting, curving structures? And how about those buildings that look like tic tac toe boards? It would be laughable if these guys weren't serious about that.
Actually, I like most of the new designs, Barring the tic-tac-toe one and the United Architects design that looks like rectangles sitting on arches. I LIKE the twisting design. And, If anything it would create more office space, because, it could widen out without taking up more street space. Plus, it resembles the original twin towers. And, it's tall. I miss the twin towers height. Now, I can only see the crown of the American International building from my block. Before, I could see the top 30 floors of the WTC.
And what's with all the glass? Do these guys know how HOT glass buildings would be in the summer and how much energy it would take to air condition them?
Actually, the twisting design was designed to require virtually no air conditioning for most of the year, and it's reliant on glass.
And how about that design for that 1800 foot tower? What a corker. Can you imagine that monstrosity blighting the city landscape?
I can only remember 3 supertall buildings:
Foster & Partners twisting design: No listed height, but depicted as more than twice as tall as 3WFC.
THINK design 2: A conical shaped tower with broadcast tower reaching to 2100 ft. to be incoporated with 30 story high covered space (whole 16 acre space)
Studio Daniel Libeskind- With the design that keeps a hole in the ground, a 1,776 (coincidence? Think not.) ft tall building would be constructed full of gardens.
I liked all of these buildings. Let's also keep in mind that if designed properly, they will fit in with surrounding buildings. The Empire State building is way taller than anything nearby. No one disses it.
If these designs were produced by some of the finest architectural minds, I shudder to think what the city could look like a century from now.
I'm sure people felt the same when the Empire State building went up. Or even the first 'modern' styled building. Probably didn't fit with the Art Deco designs surrounding it. But today, we don't even doubt them.
Whatever happened to the timeless classic designs like the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building and the Woolworth Building? Even the clean, simple yet dignified design of the original WTC would be preferable to what's been proposed.
The 'classic' design of those buildings was from another time period. You cannot continue the same designs of almost a century ago. Today's style involves different looks. Buildings should develop their own style, and these plans do just that. Many of them aren't that bad, though some are pretty nasty.
I'm beginning to think that the best design for the WTC rebuild is to rebuild them exactly as they were, with all modern safety systems built in.
Every architect knows that this is definitely not the way to go. The memory would be brought up every time you looked at them. These designs will create a new skyline, one that may ultimately blend in with new buildings of the 21st century. Humans do not go back in time, they go ahead.
But it's alright. The peterson/Littenburg proposal is right up your alley: familiar looking buildings with a simple plaza and more buildings surrounding that plaza. And, since LMDC and the PA must ultimately choose the plan, We could get just this, what NY Times Architecture critic Herbert Muschamp hailed as a '70's remake'.
Also according to Muschamp:
"Peterson Littenberg is the state agency's in-house planners. Its inclusion has put the other six teams in the strange position of competing against the agency that will be judging their work."
I gotta agree. I just don't like any of the designs I've seen.
The problem is, I don't know what I want to do there.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Seconded ... I kinda liked what was there. With better steelwork for floor supports, I'd personally prefer to see a replacement. Move them to the other corners if necessary to placate the public, but the only way *I* can see New York being "made whole" is to restore what was. With improvements.
I'd like to see something that looks like it was built by people, for people, not by aliens for a aestehtic goal. To achieve this, all the government has to do is ... NOTHING.
That's right nothing. The Port Authority and the LMDC have no business financing and constructing buildings. They'll be empty buildings.
All the money should go to transportation and parks. Zoning and very general design guidelines should be laid on the development sites. And they should be sold, or Silverstein should be allowed to build on them. Depending on what will make money, which in turn depends on what tennants might want and can afford.
All this "cultural center" stuff bothers me. Raise your hand if you think New York has too few museums chasing too few public and philanthropic funds? The Brooklyn Philharmonic is in a deep budget crisis due to funding cuts, I'm told by those who work there, as are many other institutions. We have enough already -- lets build up the ones we have.
I have my own opinions as to what kind of space for what kind of user might make sense Downtown. But that isn't the point.
All this "cultural center" stuff bothers me. Raise your hand if you think New York has too few museums chasing too few public and philanthropic funds? The Brooklyn Philharmonic is in a deep budget crisis due to funding cuts, I'm told by those who work there, as are many other institutions. We have enough already -- lets build up the ones we have.
It's been said that the Guggenheim Museum is in extremely bad financial condition. The Soho branch was shut down, the main building on Fifth Avenue suffers from severe deferred maintenance (gee, does that sound familiar?), and the directors have been selling off parts of the collection to pay bills.
>>> The Port Authority and the LMDC have no business financing and constructing buildings. They'll be empty buildings. <<<
At this point it is not the PA that will be paying for the construction, but the insurance on the WTC. But as long as the site remains unoccupied, there is rental income loss, loss of taxes to the city (from businesses that were located there) and the secondary benefits to the city from the people working there who buy goods and services in the immediate neighborhood.
Tom
(But as long as the site remains unoccupied, there is rental income loss, loss of taxes to the city (from businesses that were located there) and the secondary benefits to the city from the people working there who buy goods and services in the immediate neighborhood.)
Some of that in inevitable. Downtown is now the overflow outlet for Midtown. If the WTC had not been destroyed, some other part of Downtown would be vacant, as the tide of economic activity receded back into Midtown. When the tide pushes out in the other direction, Downtown will once again fill with whatever New York requires.
The important thing is to have sites in the hand of builders who are able to build whatever that is. Immediately. Not some art piece.
Heck, I'd be satisfied with the through contstruction of West Broadway/Greenich and the reconstruction of Hudson Terminal on the other side. Wouldn't a modernized but identical version of that building do the site proud? With a 1500 square foot TV tower rising from the center of it!
I definitely agree with you that the new WTC proposals are not becoming. The best design for the WTC would be the original. There is no worthy substitute for the original WTC. They should just build twin towers even if they are a little taller than the orginal twin towers.
#3 West End Jeff
One thing to keep in mind is that the LMDC is primarily looking at land use in choosing one of these plans. They are not bound to follow the specific architectural designs in any of the plans (doesn't the Sky Park plan specifically leave out ANY architectural design for the skyscrapers, just using placeholders in the renderings?). In fact the memorial designs aren't specifically bound to the larger site design either. So they could take the memorial design from one plan, combine it with the street-level layout of another plan, and end up building boring 40-story glass boxes.
That said, I think it's important to build the world's tallest building there, and I rather like the architecture of most of the 9 plans out there (sorry, I don't like the tic-tac-toe design). It may be symbolic to have that title, but it's an important symbol, especially in a city that many associate with its towering skyline. Most significant structures and public spaces here were either constructed many decades ago, or made to look like they were constructed many decades ago. That's a sad state of affairs for a place that claims to be the "greatest city in the world", which ought to be constantly looking to improving itself, not gazing wistfully at the past and refusing to accept anything new. Not that we should go out demolishing anything more than 30 years old, but when there's the chance to build something new and bold, we should take it.
I agree with rebuilding just as they are with the safety stuff in it.
Why, you ask? Simple. If ANYTHING else is built, there is always going to be disagreement with the new concept itself. The problem is that you have too many people to impress. The familes of the people who died, fellow coworkers, political figures, even people who live near there! The list goes on and on. It's quite how I see some people say that the designs are 'bad' or 'unacceptable'. They ought to put up or shut up. I bet they couldn't get away with designing something and getting no criticism at the same time. *Sigh* All we need is to rebuild them. No other alternative is feasible.
Rebuilding the World Trade Center with its old design is the worst form of reaction.
We've gone very far in the last 30 years, it would be an insult to the present to rebuild using a 30 year-old design.
I hate all of those new buildings that are made to look like they were built in the pre-war period. I hate those new lampposts that look like the old ones. I don't have a problem with old things preserved or restored, but I can't stand it when some architect or designer can't come up with an original idea and just scratches together something that would have looked familiar to someone from 1930. What will people think in the future of our current time when they see that the only crap we could come up with is the same thing that existed in the past?
American Pig
NEO-MODERNIST
Well, they can build their new stuff elsewhere, Mr. NEO-MODERNEST. :)
I only suggested this idea because I think that any other design is going to draw so much criticism.
Even a revived WTC will draw criticism from the necrocratic and panophobic communities. There's nothing you can do down there that won't draw complaints from one group or another.
Why should new stuff be built elsewhere? Do you suggest that "old stuff" therefore be built at the WTC site?
I wouldn't mind about the 'old stuff'. :) ...but other people will complain. That's the unfortunate thing. People never seem to agree...
`The replacement buildings should be (a)- practical but unique (Not of the "Space Cadet" school of architectural design) (b) - the tallest buildings in the world, both in the number of office floors and overall height of the structure. And (c) - Space in the megastructure should provide for a university devoted to world peace and justice.
I agree with A and B, but I don't think that a university for world peace will actually achieve anything. That can be housed at the UN.
Following your argument, I guess buildings like Penn Station and the Metropolitan Museum of Art were crappy designs since they were modelled after really old Roman buildings. Same for St. Patrick's Cathedral, which is a replica of Gothic Cathedral. Or the Woolworth Building--a Gothic version of a skyscraper.
1903...The city celebrates the opening of the Williamsburg Bridge - the second span to link Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Peace,
ANDEE
How old are you now? How old are you now? How old are you noooooooooow? How old are you now? Wait, you already said. Never mind.
AND MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANY MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
lol
wow i share a birthday with the Williamsburg Bridge??? i turn 20 years old saturday morning 845am. December 21,1982- December 21, 2002. A train turns 20 years old, while starting a new Career at the Metro North Railroad. I love it!
no...you do not share a b'day w/wb. wb's b 'day is TODAY.
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't share a birthday with the Williamsburg Bridge, but you do share a birthday with Joseph Stalin.
lol oops. Well i hope Mr Stalin has a good birthday cause i know i will. i still gotta work tho LOL.
And the next day after a brief rainstorm they realized the stupidity of using non-galvanized metal in it's construction. That baby was well rusted before a single automobile ever graced it's roadway.
...they could start by getting rid of the political hacks and do nothings infesting the offices at Jay St and Livingston Plaza. IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or they could get rid of the guys selling swipes EVERY NIGHT at 34th/6th
That guy IS one of the political hacks from Jay Street selling swipes on his way home to pick up a few extra $$$. Where do you think he gets all those Metrocards from?
CG
>>>Or they could get rid of the guys selling swipes EVERY NIGHT at 34th/6th <<<
Really? I use that station daily, never noticed them. Guess I'm just not paying attention.
Peace,
ANDEE
Psst, I'll let ya ride for a buck..
You guys are great. Even know I have only met up with a few of you in the passed, I could not beleave how many of you have sent your respects to me and my family. At the time that I posted the masage about my Farther passing, I was doing it as a way just to vent it out of me. Now I know that the people her are the best.
Thank again from my Famely and My Self. I have to get ready now for the Funeral. I hope to run into you guys one day at one of the Rail Fan Trips or other places.
Robert Mencher (North-Eastern T/O)
That's the thing about us here at SubTalk, Robert. We all argue and bicker at each other, and at times can be downright mean and nasty.
But in times of crises, whether it be something as catastrophic as what happened 9/11/02 or something as painful as losing a loved one, we all can come together in unity, in support, and --- dare I say it --- in love.
It all just goes to prove that what makes us the same is a hell of a lot more important than what makes us different.
I hope that the support you received here at SubTalk has provided some comfort to you and your family during this sad time.
<>
Amen.
Despite a few sour souls who want to eat TWU members for lunch, most of us care about you guys and gals and care. The funeral and burial will be the hardest part, don't be shy about letting your emotions go. You'll need that. Once again, my most extreme sympathies to you and the family.
The Funeral and Burial was today. He looked so at peace. My Wife and I still can't beleave he is gone. My wife and my farther were just realy staring to get along after five years. I know that I will get better with time, but for now it still heart like you know what.
Robert
You and the missus are now over the worst of it and into the healing time. And it WILL take some time. The BEST part though is that you all were at peace with one another before it was too late. A lot of people never get the chance. Remember him for all the great times you had together - that will help to keep his spirit alive. THAT'S what immortality is all about ...
Amen, Unca Kevi!
Robert,
When my father died in July, 1969 (right over the Fourth holiday), he was in Monkton, New Bruswick with my mother, aunt and uncle. I had to make all the arrangements to get my mother home (my aunt & uncle drove back to Baltimore) plus the funeral arrangements. I had a cousin pick my mother up at BWI Airport, as I didn't want her to come back into the house they had shared since 1932 after the death, trip back to Baltimore (on the same plane with the casket) and all that preying on her mind.
At the funeral home (while I'm setting everything up, including picking out the burial casket) all I can hear is my father saying "It's a racket, just a damn racket. All they want is to get your money" The funeral home's owner was a long-time friend of the family (30 plus years) and we were taken care of like one of the Ruck family.
The Rucks still own the business, one of the last family-owned funeral homes in Baltimore.
After everything was set up, I walked into the room, closed the doors and cried like a baby. It hit me that hard. Then I put on the iron face and became the family leader. Makes you grow up damn fast. I was days away from reaching that magic age of 21.
Three weeks after the funeral, I was coming home from work, turned into our street and saw my father's car parked by the curb. "Dad's home" popped into my mind. Followed immediately by the realization that he's not coming home ever again.
I still wear his Illinois Bunn Special pocket watch whenever I'm in uniform at the Museum. He bought it in 1922 when he went to work as motorman for the United Railways and never got rid of it. I'm glad.
The pain will dull and you will have the happy times you spent together.
Most people on here will do anything for a fellow subtalker, Robert. We love trains, but when more important things come up, we try to do what we can for each other. Sort of like a second family :-) -Nick
Would SubTalkers ever be able to work together like this? ;O)
See NY Times article from today, 19-DEC:
Mounting an Online Posse to Catch a Thief
Let's go git us sum NIMBY's. Yee Haaaa!
From NY Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/nyregion/19TRAN.html
"Saying Riders Need Data, City Orders Transit Audit"
Maybe Bill Thompson got the idea from SubTalk. (That's a joke.)
An interesting highlight:
"The [MTA] budget leaves out several large pieces of income, he said, like subsidies from the city and state and dedicated taxes. It also did not include expenses like new labor costs or debt service on capital projects."
Could somebody explain to me why the tiles for the stations on the A line between Grant Avenue and Liberty Avenue look different from the rest of the Fulton Street line (from Broadway Junction to Hoyt-Schermerhorn)?
Was the last stop on the A line Broadway-East New York at some point and then extended along Pitkin Avenue to include the five stations?
Yes. And before that, the last stop was Rockaway Avenue, forcing a walking transfer to the L at that point.
Paul, when the terminal was Rockaway wasn't there still an elevated shuttle between Rockaway and Bway Junction?
Jeffrey, the Fulton L ran a full eervice from Rockway Avenue to Lefferts Blvd.
After the A Line was extended to ENY, Fulton L trains ran from Eastern Parkway on the J level during nights and weekebds, and there was no service to Rockaway Avenue at that time.
You couldn't run a service from Rockaway Avenue BMT to Broadway Junction because the Fulton L tracks turned east to Atlantic Avenue.
Thank you. I assume there was a free transfer between the IND subway and the El at Rockaway. (after unification of course)
There was a free transfer. Before the general introduction of interdivisional transfers in 1948, transfers were issued to serve truncated lines.
Question: Instead of spendng millions of dollars to build the tunnel from Rockaway Ave. to Grant Ave, why didn't they simply ramp the existing BMT Fulton St. line as it curved west north of Atlantic Ave down to the IND tunnel, then upgrade the structure from Atlantic to Hudson St. so it could use longer heavier cars? I understood the logic behind building under Fulton south of Rockaway, to deprive the BMT of passangers to a major revenue generating line and therefore speed up the BMT's demise, but by 1940 that reason was rendered moot.
Good question. I guess maybe they wanted the new line to stop at Bway Junction. Or maybe it would have been impractical to build the ramp over there or uneconomical to upgrade the structure. Also I think the subway would be faster as I'm sure the trains had to go slow through the S-curves on Sneidiker from Fulton to Pitkin, just like the S-curves on the Jamaica El slows the trains. But considering how the IND made the connection to the Fulton El further east and also the connection to the Culver from Church Av your idea does seem feasible.
Also, if they kept the Fulton El from Rockaway Av eastbound we would be cheated out of having the 76th St Station controversy.
We'd have a "Broadway-Junction IND: Fact or Fiction" controversy instead.
The line as far as Euclid was already in the works before Unification became a sure thing and (I believe) was actually under construction. Ramping down from Atlantic Avenue would have required quite a bit of new construction and engineering in order to keep an elevated line, which I'm sure the City didn't want at the time.
Besides, how would they have gotten access to 76th Street? :)
When the Fulton St line was extended to Euclid I dont understand why they didnt have a ramp built to the Canarsie line just for non revenue service. If that was case the test R143 wouldnt have to run all the way to manhattan to get to the Rockaways for testing and the A would of had access to the ENY yard
When the IND was first being built, I think the purpose was to elimate the BMT and IRT.
Right but that part of the line opened after the 3 lines were unified.
I think there was to have been an IND Second System route that was to start after Euclid Ave. If it wasn't for the Depression and World War 2, it might have been built.
The IND First System already put the city deep into hock.
They wouldn't have been able to afford the Second System as planned regardless of various wars and crises.
I think the IND planners were drinking too many beverages that were fermented in bathtubs.
IIRC NYC was able to build their IND First System by careful editing of their budget. It helped that Hylan was the Mayor. In 1929 the IND Second System was announced. If not for the depression that started 3 weeks after the announcement, I think a good part of it would have been built. If it wasn't for funds coming from Washington DC, in the 30's, Some of what we have now wouldn't have been built.
The line ended at East New York (well Rockaway Ave, like Paul mentioned) for a while because work haulted during WWII. The rest of the line was built I believe further (at least the tunnels), but not completed because of WWII. After WWII they finished the tilework, the rails, etc and by that time they did that, they had changed the IND tile design.
BTW, Lower 42nd Street on 8th Ave is also done in that "new" IND style.
As is 179th Street on the F, although it's hard to tell nowadays.
The style developed into the one with beige and green tiles on the 50's IRT extensions, and from there to the plain style at 57/6 and Grand. Then the 70's happened and everything changed, and the late 80's and early 90's happened and everything changed again.
Then the 70's happened and everything changed, and the late 80's and early 90's happened and everything changed again.
And luckily with the recent renovations they have resorted to the "retro" look buy either restoring what should never have been covered (like on Broadway) or went to an "old" look in a "reproduction", such as at Fulton and Broad/Nassau Line, and 8th Ave/14th - ironically covering over original IND-type tiles that were original to the stations.
If I had to choose between the 50's extensions on the IRT Contract One stations or the late 60's tiles that covered over the BMT mosaics on Broadway, I would choode the former Broadway look. I don't particularily think the look was so hideous; what I hate is that it covered over all the mosaics. If the 2nd Ave subway was built during that time, it's stations would probably look like Broadway looked (and 4th Ave Line in Brooklyn does). In that situation, it wouldn't have been so bad in my opinion as original tilework because it would not have been covering over the mosaics. And was the style at the time the stations would have been built.
There is absolutely no redeaming features in the Lexington mint green extensions which had absolutely no effort to blend with the existing tilework. At least on the West Side Bway Line they are beige, and somewhat neutral, although just as ugly.
86th street at lex has platform extensions that look quite nice
86th street at lex has platform extensions that look quite nice
Yeah, but it's not one of the awful extensions that they added to the Contract One stations, which on the West Side Line is north of Times Squarem and on the Lexington Line, is south of Grand Central, (well actually the extensions south of Union Square on the Lexington Line - for some reason the Contract One stations at 33rd, 28th , and 23rd got good extensions - the tiles are the same on both sides, and match somewhat to the old tiles - and the extensions match up with eachother both in tiles and position).
The 50's/60's style tiles can look great (57th/6th), awful (lower level 59th/Lex before makeover, Grant Ave.) or bland (Grand St). 70's & 80's restorations attempted to completely destroy the existing looks and to make the stations look like newer, more modern subway stations in other cities. Jamaica Van Wyck, as it is designed, would fit nicely into many other urban subway systems around the world. The trend now is to restore, or even simulate (lower level 59th/Lex) the older tile designs. I love what they did at 28th/Broadway, 5th Ave/60th St. and 81st St/Museum of Natural History (my personal favorite).
I think 57/6 is awfully bland, while Grant isn't spectacular but it isn't bad either.
The West Side extensions aren't offensive but they are boring. The East Side extensions are gruesome.
I'd say the turning point in modernization vs. restoration was Herald Square. The IND platform was modernized, but in a more tasteful fashion than earlier modernizations, and the BMT platform kept its BMT-style tiling.
Very true about Herald Square. It was one of the first renovations that actually did not destroy the old aesthetics of the station. I also like the lighting at Herald Square.
One West Side Broadway Station that would probably look great if they cleaned it up and increased lighting is the 168 Street station on the 1 and 9 lines. I'm not sure about this (and correct me if I'm wrong), but it appears that the station was designed to have chandeliers in the middle of the ceiling. Chandeliers in a NYC subway...now that would have been interesting.
but it appears that the station was designed to have chandeliers in the middle of the ceiling. Chandeliers in a NYC subway...now that would have been interesting
It's very possible that 168th Street on the West Side line had chandeliers at one time. Actually the abandoned City Hall Station did have brass chandeliers when it was in use. They still hang there from the ceiling (at least they did the last time I was at the station back in 1996). They were used for the station lighting still at that point. I assume they are still there, although I don't know if they have working bulbs in them currently. The last time I was at the station was in 1996 on a TM tour, and all the lighting was in use. However I haven't even been around the loop since that day, so I can't say if they still change the bulbs now.
Around 1999, a motorman (with a dispatcher's permission) allowed let me have a free look at the old City Hall Station from inside a 6 train. While some of the light bulbs on the chandeliers were off, most were still on. The old City Hall station back then still looked great.
Actually, the first time I "snuck a peak" at the City Hall station was almost as much fun as the two times I was there on tours. (The first tour was a tour of just that station, the second tour was "Day One on the IRT", which did some of the other stations, and ended at City Hall - hey the tour was going there, even though I saw the station a few years before on a different tour, so I was happy to go a second time).
Anyway, I learned about the station around 1990. By 1992 the suspense was killing me, and I had gotten a friend of mine interested in it also. One day we decided to stay on the train at Brooklyn Bridge. We were at the railfan window since 125th Street, and just stayed in the first car. Of course we were asked to leave the train by the T/O, but asked him if we could stay on to see the City Hall station. He was impressed that we were interested in it, and although he knew nothing about the history of it, he said, "Yeah, there is a station there, and it is a cool looking station". He said, "I'm not supposed to let you stay on, but stay - but if anyone asks, I know nothing about you being here". He told us to look off to out right as we went through. He then went back into the cabin and closed his door. The doors closed, and I was very excited.
I still get chills when I think of it, as we slowly approached the loop, the station I heard so much about finally appeared before our eyes, in all it's glory. It was probably just as fun as going to the station itself, because of course it's always more fun when your not supposed to be doing something, and second because it was "the first time".
When we got back to BB, the T/O came out and sain, "So, did you see it? Did you like it?" We thanked him. He did his good dead that day!
That'll have to be something I do soon: catch a glimpse of the old City Hall station.
I've been a conductor for almost four years and I have never seen it. There have been many times that I've been curious about what's back there.
Maybe one day soon I'll get on Dave's train and take a look when they go around the loop. :)
I love what they did at 28th/Broadway, 5th Ave/60th St. and 81st St/Museum of Natural History (my personal favorite).
I think the job they did on 81st St/Museum of Natural History is worth the price of the fare just to go and enjoy it.
The line ended at East New York (well Rockaway Ave, like Paul mentioned) for a while because work haulted during WWII. The rest of the line was built I believe further (at least the tunnels), but not completed because of WWII. After WWII they finished the tilework, the rails, etc and by that time they did that, they had changed the IND tile design.
Sounds like a brief description of the IND extention after Euclid Ave. And I'm not talking about Grant Ave.
Liberty, VanSiclen, Shepherd and Euclid date from 1948. They use the 10X5 "block" tile. Stylistically they are similar (with regards to the captions and tablets), but the tile isn't white (it's eggshell beige), and it uses the larger size rather than the standard 4.25".
Grant Avenue is different still, opened in 1956. They use textured 5X10 Nile Green tile with a Bottle Green tile band.
Broadway-East NY, which opened in 1946, was actually constructed and tiled earlier but not opened; the tile is the original IND style. The color was changed sometime in the 80's from dark green; they applied two different blue glazes to the tile band.
wayne
the tile is the original IND style. The color was changed sometime in the 80's from dark green; they applied two different blue glazes to the tile band.
Interesting. So you meant that even though this is the original tile, this is not the real color of the tile band? I wonder why they changed the color on the tile band.
Station was renovated some time ago..[minor one at that]
They probably did that so the blue tile color would match (to some extent), the three newer local stations (Liberty, Van Siclen and Shepherd) all of which are also blue. This was probably done in the IND tradition. If you can, check out the history of the IND on this website for info about station tile colors.
>>>>They use the 10X5 "block" tile.<<<
Wayne, what was the deciding factor in using the different tiles?
Peace,
ANDEE
Grant Avenue is different still, opened in 1956. They use textured 5X10 Nile Green tile with a Bottle Green tile band.
Howard Beach also used this style on the platform level by the staircases.
Broad Channel, too.
Ah. My original message included Broad Channel, but then I couldn't remember if it was true so I removed the statement. Always helps to have photos to remind :)
Are you sure about that? I can remember the tile band at B-ENY being the color it is today way back when the station was lit with incandescent lightbulbs.
When I was a kid riding the IND subway, with the incandescent lights on the platforms, I thought the tiled walls were a light shade of yellow. Not dirty. Just a pale yellow. I was very surprised when new lighting came out and I saw they were white.
Yeah, I can't believe that anyone thought the old incandescent lighting systems were adequate.
The New York Times has an article about a website, morrispark.com, which mixes community stuff with pornography, ethnic/racial slurs, etc.
Now I would call this an example of domain name abuse, but what's really frightening is that "State Senator Guy J. Velella of the Bronx is drafting a bill requiring Web site operators to register with the attorney general."
What? What is he thinking? If they are doing something illegal, I would totally support bringing them down, or perhaps (more appropriately) having them use a more descriptive domain name.
We worry about loss of freedom, but what is the instinct that would impel an elected official to force webmasters (including me, and Dave, and many others here) to register with local law enforcement, rather than deal with the specific problem at hand?
And considering what the registration info says:
Administrative Contact:
www.MorrisPark.com
Tony Guido (mp@morrispark.com)
0
FAX: none
Via Pignatelli Aragona
Palermo, Sicily 90144
IT
I can see trying to get him to register with NYS will do a whole lotta good.
>>> And considering what the registration info says: <<<
Obviously a phoney registration which should lead to his IP closing the web site down.
Tom
"Obviously a phoney registration which should lead to his IP closing the web site down."
If honesty in the registration information was a condition of service than I'd agree. If only the fees were required, then why close it down? Is there not enough room in the world for differing ideas?
There used to be. Among the most popular nations for hosting these days is .ru (Russia), .cz (Czech Republic) and .za (Zambia) ... a LOT of "controversial sites" are setup there. Strangely, some of the .ru servers are in BROOKLYN. Whenever I hear politico gasbags trying to regulate the internet, I gotta chuckle. Clamp down here, it pops up over there. Just ask China. :)
The country code does not necessarily indicate where the servers, the web site, or the registrant are located, since many countries sell registrations to anyone in order to get $$$. China just opened up .com.cn, .net.cn, .org.cn for registration worldwide.
BTW, .ZA is South Africa.
Whoops! You're right on South Africa, it was originally assigned to Zambia but got swapped. And yes, resolves to a particular IP can be resold and are, but the actual TLD still belongs to those nations. But that's not the point, so lemme hit the reset button. Brrrrrrzzzzzp! Ah, there we are.
There are a LOT of web hosts located on little tiny "sovereign" islands in the middle of nowhere, in countries that do not recognize international law and will SHOOT anyone who wants to get near their national server farm. Enforcing laws on websites requires access to the host computer and there's plenty of places on the planet where our good Senator will NOT be able to take out sites he feels are "offensive." :)
You don't need physical access to the servers, all you need to do is delete the delete the entries on the root name servers, and the web addresses would no longer resolve. It could probably be done for the generic TLDs like .com, though you could create an international incident if you tried it with a country code.
A lot of foreign websites are hosted on servers in the US, because of the good infrastructure, though they pay a penalty in hops. Some of these island country codes can't possible have a server farm--it isn't so much the sheep kicking the servers, it's more the waterproof extension cords for the T1 line. ;-)
Valella is just blowing smoke. Congress, OTOH, has been considering legislation to require accurate domain registrations with, at a minimum, a real name, a real address, and a real telephone number. That's easily enforced--if the info is found to be false, you cancel the registration.
True ... then again, I'm sorta in a unique situation since the business I'm engaged in requires playing in the toilets of the internet, looking for scammers, trojans and script kiddies. They live in a world of redirects, direct IP addresses and numerous "rogue sites" out there. There is an underworld that hosts porn sites and far nastier things that have been shut down too many times for their taste on the "angelfires" of the planet.
You're more likely to carry a handful of Atlantic Ocean water to Albany than you are to get at some of the slipperier operators out there, another reason why this ain't going to succeed. But we're out of the realms of what subtalk's about - I wish the good Senator much luck, but know better. :)
>>> That's easily enforced--if the info is found to be false, you cancel the registration. <<<
The root servers will do that now if you can show the information is false.
Tom
>>>Valella is just blowing smoke<<<
Which is all he knows how to do.
Peace,
ANDEE
And to think ... blowing smoke has been illegal in the capitol for quite a number of years now. Of course, the sausagecrafters conveniently exempt themselves from their own laws. :)
DON'T get me started. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> If honesty in the registration information was a condition of service than I'd agree <<<
It is. I spend a considerable amount of time trying to track down TCPA (Telephone Consumers Protection Act) violators, many of whom use web sites as their only point of contact in their advertising. If the names and addresses are phoney they cannot be reached to be served. When people in business are trying to hide their identities, there is usually a scam involved. Getting the web site shut down at least foils the scam for a short time.
Tom
The constitutionality of such a bill is questionable.
The ENFORCEMENT of such a bill is even MORE questionable. But then, that's our Senate Majority for ya ... meanwhile the FUTURE is on hold among those boys since they'd rather cash their checks from VERIZON than bring technology to "Tech Valley" ... up here in Senate Majority land, 26k baud is "high speed internet" ... if you can even get a DIAL TONE of course. :(
*up here in Senate Majority land, 26k baud is "high speed internet" ... if you can even get a DIAL TONE of course. :( *
"Hello, Central?"
Heh. Well, Verizon just chitcanned Mabel, so now we have to crank TWICE as hard in hopes of contact with Manhattan, Kansas so's we can call the sheriff. If only Verizon had brought DSL out thisaway, there'd be a lot more money coming into their central office. Alas, they'd rather not have the money.
But yeah, rumor is we might be getting flush toilet technology in a few years. Woohoo! :)
Velella is a TOAD. And a BRUNO boy. 'nuff said. If he DOES go for it, WE will sue. While we're in New York, our web site is in Minnesota. We can show him a few loop-de-loops to bite. And I'll bet his "offensive site" isn't even *IN* New York. This little episode though only adds to the reason why I diss our moron lawgivers - we're in "Tech Valley" and can't even get DSL. No *WONDER* New York is in the toilet. :(
>>>Velella is a TOAD. And a BRUNO boy.<<<
Totally agreed, and under investigation to boot.
Another worthless, corrupt, piece of shit.
Peace,
ANDEE
Look at who his MENTOR was. Maybe Velella and an oak tree can have a "hot date" ... nah, like Joey, he'll walk. Who's investigating? :)
we're in "Tech Valley" and can't even get DSL. No *WONDER* New York is in the toilet. :(
And *we* are on the Plains of North Dakota, with a DSL connection from our local telephone COOPERATIVE! You remember cooperatives.... *we* own the company, and elect people to run and manage it for us. If *I* need to talk the their network administrator, I pick up the phone and TALK to him!
: ) Elias
DSL service is available in Kabul, Afghanistan!!! But as they say, "THIS is New York." And VERIZON just fired over 4,000 people TODAY. I guess it'll be a while, but good old Senator Joe Bruno can count on getting HIS check from Verizon. Mississippi on the Hudson. Thanks, Senator JOE.
But yeah, you wonder why New York is broke. 75% of our gross sales money remains in MINNESOTA because we cannot obtain the facilities WE need in New York. But at least Minnesota's got some money coming in.
Of course I just HAD to check out the site for myself - all Guy Velella did was give them free advertising.. In between the porn they have some photos of the Dyre Avenue Line - taken from guess where - THIS SITE!!!
With the talk of higher fares and service cuts due to the MTA budget problems i propose a challenge on what service changes can be made at this time to eliminate waste and improve service
the first changes i will make
1-Run short trains during the midnight hours( you do not need 8 or 10 car trains at 2AM)
2-Have the D train make local stops on the 8th Ave Line between 59th Street and 145th Street when the B train does not operate late nights and weekends until the Manhattan Bridge is reopened to 6th Ave Line service and then when the D resumes Brooklyn service during midnight hours only
Any ideas?
Thank You
I personally think the fare should be increased to a point where no service cuts are necessary.
--Mark
And if that means $2.00, so be it. It's still a bargain considering the price of other city's systems, what you get, how far you can ride, etc. Of course as long as they still have the MetroCard discounts included: Buy ten, FunPass, monthlys, etc.
I concur with the idea that the fare should be put at the point needed to be sure NO service cuts are made. The improvements we have seen are too important to lose for the sake of keeping the fare below a symbolic level like $2 I think most people don't mind paying for quality service. I rather pay $2 for trains that run frequently and are safe and reliable rather than $1.75 or even $1.50 for trains that are not.
As to your idea of short trains on the midnights; I think that was discussed in a thread yesterday or the day before. You need to consider the manpower and cost associated with splitting and then reconnecting trains for a period of less than 7 hours per day. While I have not seen the numbers on this issue, I tend to feel that the added costs would more than offset the savings.
Suggestion 1 is being discussed in other threads.
I agree with suggestion 2 as a service improvement, but it would increase costs (very slightly), not decrease them.
>>>2-Have the D train make local stops on the 8th Ave Line between 59th Street and 145th Street when the B train does not operate late nights and weekends until the Manhattan Bridge is reopened to 6th Ave Line service and then when the D resumes Brooklyn service during midnight hours only <<<<
The pax would kill you, me included.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who is the pax?
PAX=passengers
Peace,
ANDEE
Channel 31 PAX-TV. :)
--Mark
How about abolishing the single fare and making everyone buy at least a Fun Pass? ;-)
How about getting Scrooge McDuck to donate 5 trillion dollars to the MTA? Now that's improvement right there. :)
I'm thinking of a trip to Boston after Christmas to do some railfanning. My thinking right now is to travel on Christmas Day, spend Thursday and Friday (12/26 & 12/27) in Boston and return home sometime on Saturday. Yet the plan is still flexible and still subject to change.
If any Subtalkers from Boston (or who aren't from Boston but may be in the area on or about those dates) who may like to meet up, drop me an email! I've only been to Boston a few times, so any railfanning suggestions are welcome. Also, suggestions on a resonably priced hotel would be greatly appreciated. I am most concerned about price (really want to keep it under $100 per night), so location (as long as it is near mass transit) is not too much of a consideration.
Also, despite having joined Amtrak's Guest Rewards program, I don't have any discount codes to use when booking my rail fare from NYC to Boston, so if anyone has a code I could use, it would be greatly appreciated.
Hotel ... how about a "Bed & Breakfest" on Beacon Street at St Mary's (the 1st above ground stop of the Green line that goes down that street). 617-232-0292 ... three of us stayed there overnight in 2000.
With your day pass you C-A-N do all the colors in one day !
But purple will cost you extra.
Check out AMTRAK's eBay site. If you hurry, you'll get Acela Express tickets for LESS than the Regional.
Thanks, I found a Motel 6 at the end of the Red Line (booked for the first night), I'll check this place out!
What does Purple mean?
The "T" colors are: Green; Red; Blue; Orange & maybe Silver, i.e. BRT (not sure who this service reports to, but I think it's the "T").
The regional rail/MBTA is Purple ... get yourself a map to see what I mean.
P.S. coming from the South there's also a convient hotle at the end of the Green line at Riverside, but the Bed & Breakfest puts you downtown right at a trolley stop (if you get a front room you can here them ... I was in the basement in the back, nice room, but too quite ).
"maybe Silver, i.e. BRT (not sure who this service reports to, but I think it's the "T")."
The Silver line is a busway, and yes, it's operated by the T. -Nick
Not if you stay within Zones 1A and 1B of the commuter rail. When I visited Boston in August 2000 (on a pleasantly warm summer day), I took a Needham Line train to Forest Hills and the conductor accepted the pass. I took the Orange Line back.
Free rides on all T services after 8:00 p.m.; "rush-hour level of service" during the evening on rapid transit; and extra commuter rail trips after midnight. Details from the MBTA's press release.
The NYCTA could learn something from them. If only to promote no drinking and driving.
Peace,
ANDEE
They could even spend MILLIONS advertising it ... that would be their style :-(
Another great shot by Joe Testagrose in the newest image section.
What I wouldn't do to be standing on that wood platform, in front of the Valencia Theatre, awaiting a ride over Jamaica Avenue (even if the R42's were beginning to show their new unofficial "paint scheme"). I was only a year old when this photo was taken.
(BTW, I didn't realize the Valencia was already a "church" in 1972!)
Oh by the way, the photo above was taken on September 10th, 1972, according to the caption.....five years to the day to the last day of full service on the old Jamaica El.
That was a beautiful old station. It seemed so out of place with all of the other stations on Jamaica Ave being concrete. Of course back then, the five stations on Fulton St (Crescent thru Alabama) were still wood too.
It was great to see a movie at the Valencia, come up and get on a Standard on a snowy Friday evening.
The Valencia was a beautiful theatre too.
The Valencia was a beautiful theatre too.
It seems like it must've been. I remember walking by some time in the early 80's and they had all the exit doors open. I took a peak in and it seemed amazing. Actually the "church" seemed to be keeping it in pretty good shape. Of course that's almost 20 years ago. Who knows what the condition of the interior is now.
Becoming a church was probably the best thing that could have happened to it in the way of preservation. So many of New York's theatres were vandalized, burned or demolished after closing.
Becoming a church was probably the best thing that could have happened to it in the way of preservation. So many of New York's theatres were vandalized, burned or demolished after closing.
Church use is one of the very few possible conversions of an old movie theater that does not require it to be rebuild beyond recognition.
Long Island University has converted the old Paramount Theatre at Flatbush and DeKalb into a basketball arena. The Blackbirds have the most unique home arena among all Division I teams -- as well as the most railfan friendly! (I still count St. Johns home arena as Alumni Hall which is just too long and cold a walk from the F train.)
CG
Long Island University has converted the old Paramount Theatre at Flatbush and DeKalb into a basketball arena. The Blackbirds have the most unique home arena among all Division I teams -- as well as the most railfan friendly! (I still count St. Johns home arena as Alumni Hall which is just too long and cold a walk from the F train.)
SUNY Stony Brook, which is now in Division I, is pretty railfan-friendly too, as their arena is just a couple minutes' walk from the Stony Brook LIRR station.
Church use is one of the very few possible conversions of an old movie theater that does not require it to be rebuild beyond recognition.
When I was a kid, I saw a few movies at the Oasis theatre on Fresh Pond Road, near Metropolitan in Ridgewood. I remembered it well as a theatre from the 70's. In my teenage years I used to go there when it became the Oasis Roller Skating Rink in the early 80's. The old area where the screen used to be had neon Egyptians Dancing, and you could sit on the "stage", and they put pyramids in the middle of the "rink", or what used to be the seating area. All the glass stained lamps were all still there (that I remembered well from when it was a movie theatre), and they used to light them up at the end of the roller sessions.
The Oasis didn't die an easy death though, it became abandoned for years after the roller rink, and even burned at one point I think. A few years back they put it out of it's misery and made a CVS out of what remained of the building. You can tell that it used to be a theatre because it's a tall building, but the entire facade, and even the area where the lobby used to be is gone, and they even made a parking lot out of part of where the theatre was.
Was the Valencia an RKO or a Loews'? RKO's weren't too shabby (and NICE and spacious) but the Loews' were particularly extravagant.
Loews.
Then it would likely have compared to the Loews' Paradise up in da Bronx, another Taj Mahal of regal proportions (they got to be cookie cutter designs) ... musta been PRETTY in its day.
>>> It was great to see a movie at the Valencia <<<
Karl;
I remember my grandmother taking me to a theater on Jamaica Avenue with the El out front to see vaudeville in the late ‘40s. Would that have been the Valencia, or another theater? The theater had eight acts of vaudeville and a motion picture.
Tom
I don't think that was the Valencia, at least I don't remember seeing any vaudeville there. The Valencia was at the last stop on the el at 168th St, and was north of the el.
I do remember another theatre on the south side of Jamaica Ave, much further west, that became a playhouse of sorts, after its career as a movie house ended. I can't remember the theatre's name, but my parents saw a number of three act plays there in the 1950's.
I believe the other theater you are thinking of is the Alden.
That name sounds familiar, you are probably right!
Do you remember the Alden's location?
Not really. I know it was on Jamaica Avenue (not sure which side) west of the Valencia and before Parsons Blvd. Having grown up in Queens Village in the '70s the only things my family took me to Jamaica for were glasses at Cohen's Optical and to use the Main Branch of the library. We usually went to the movies either at the Community on Jamaica & 215th or the Village (?) at Jamaica & Springfield. By the time my folks would let me travel on my own the Valenica & Alden were no longer showing movies. I hope this helped.
I lived just west of the Cypress Hills - Woodhaven border. It seemed that our family and all of our neighbors shopped in Jamaica, and we all used the el to get there. In those days, it seemed like a business location was described in relation to the station on the el.
My first solo trips to Jamaica were to the stores that sold the used records that came out of jukeboxes, first 78 RPM, and then 45 RPM. There were several stores, two under the el station at 168th St, and one just down a side street.
When I started dating, it just seemed natural to take the girl out to the movies at the Valencia at 168th St or the Merrick, which I think was at 163rd St. The Merrick was another great old theatre.
Naturally, we used the el to get there.
I didn't start making solo trips to Jamaica until 1977 to use the Main Branch of the library. Never really did much else in Jamaica. If I was going to ride the train into Manhattan it was always the E or F from 179th Street. Taking the Q49 to Queens Blvd for the J always seemed to be a bit of a pain in the ass.
BTW What year was the Merrick theater around? I don't seem to remember it.
The Merrick was a Skouras theatre, located on the south side of Jamaica Ave at 163rd St. I left the city in the fall of 1957. I'm sure I was at the Merrick that year, but patronage was really dwindling then.
You could very definately hear the el trains passing while sitting in that theatre.
I had two separate instances of mechanical problems with LIRR M-1's within a 14 hour period last night/this morning.
Last night: Caught the 6:59 p.m. out of Flatbush Avenue to Far Rockaway. I'm not sure why, but as the train was rolling through the Atlantic Avenue tunnel between East New York and Jamaica, it felt a little "weak." After stopping at Jamaica with no problem, the train ran express, as usual, to Valley Stream. After opening the doors at Valley Stream, the doors opened and closed several times and then remained open. There were a number of "channel 4" calls between the engineer, the brakeman and conductor. After approximately five minutes, an announcement was made that the train was experiencing electrical problems and that help had been summoned. About ten minutes after that, another announcement was made that the train could not be repaired on the spot and would have to be towed back to the yard. A replacement train was sent out of Jamaica to Valley Stream to rescue the refugees from the stricken M-1s. I eventaully got home about an hour late.
While waiting for the rescue train I spoke to one of the ticket collectors about this incident. She told me that this was the third time she had been assigned to a trip where the train had experienced a power failure. She told me that since the oldest M-1s are being replaced by the M-7's, the MTA is not performing thorough maintenance on these trains anymore, but are just doing enough to keep them rolling.
This morning: On the 8:30 a.m. out of Cedarhurst to Penn Station, the train experienced a fuse blowout right after leaving Jamaica, eliminating the lights and heat in two of the middle cars.
If the rest of the M-1 fleet is this bad, the M-7s can't get here fast enough.
There are plenty of M-1s on Metro-North and they're still working. Who knows for how long though.
#3 West End Jeff
Not long, if that conductor was correct.
Maybe if I'm lucky, a train of M-1s might breakdown at the Hastings-on-Hudson station which is were I live.
#3 West End Jeff
Not long, if that conductor was correct.
Well... It's guess it can be expected since they've been around for 30 years.
Wayne
Hey, *I* started falling apart 'bout the time *I* turned 30....
There is nothing wrong with the M-1's. There is everything wrong with LIAR's maintenance. 30-34 year old Budd cars should not be going to scrap.
The M-1s that will eventually get replaced by M-7s are being given the same treatment as the remaining Redbirds. Meaning the LIRR keeps them running barely enough to provide service so long as they're not a danger to the riding public.
went rail faning on monday. rode on four m-1, each had flat wheels, grinding gears or motors, blinking or no lights, and a cab heater that was stuck on high(the engineer had call the station master office for a open cab door). when do the phanton trains start again?(trains canceled due to lack of working equipment)
>>and a cab heater that was stuck on high(the engineer had call the station master office for a open cab door)<<
In the last years of the MP-54's, some cabs had such bad air leaks in the winter, engineers had to tie newspapers arounf their ankles to stay warm. I heard sometimes snow would blow in them too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone remember the famed 7:55 Ghost train from Babylon to Brooklyn, in the early 70's?
What I don't understand is that they've redone a lot of the M-1 and M-3 Bathrooms lately. Now they're rebuilt in a more plastic than metal style.
"What I don't understand is that they've redone a lot of the M-1 and M-3 Bathrooms lately. Now they're rebuilt in a more plastic than metal style."
I was told the rehabbed M-1 bathrooms are being done on the cars that will be retired later on.
Bill "Newkirk"
Gee, that sounds just like the transit authority I drive buses for.
They put new engines and transmissions in buses that are slated to be retired in a few months and then they get sold to Tijuana and cities further south....
So, in other words, the M1's that are falling apart, are getting a "patchwork" job (running them to the ground) so to speak?
"So, in other words, the M1's that are falling apart, are getting a "patchwork" job (running them to the ground) so to speak?"
That's what it looks like. The cars getting the rehab will be the last M-1's to go. We're talking replacing some 700 + M-1's, so this won't happen overnight. I don't know why the LIRR is rehabbing the lavatories. Maybe the old ones are problematic and they won't last ? Who knows.
Bill "Newkirk"
May be for ADA compliance!
"May be for ADA compliance!"
No. the rehab lavatories are the same size as the old ones. Can't get a wheelchair in them.
Bill "Newkirk"
You know what? The M-1s are not THAT old - only range between 29 and 32 years old! Commuter rail cars like the M-1 should last 40 years, unless they were built to last only 30 or so.
wayne
the fairytail of equipment lasting 40 years is based on rebuilding the equipment from ground up every 15 year or so.
MTA on both LIRR and MNCW has failed to do so , and when news broke on the ordering of M-7's both railroads severly cut back on maintenance of M-1's. the fleet is in pattetic shape, and crews are complaining to deaf ears. 3 out of 8 are dead or have dynamic brake failures. doors that are to be tagged when broken are left untagged and railroad pretends to have new door failures next day but infact the same shit differed day moto is filled out on defect card every day.
its about time MTA does a managment cleanout like Amtrak cause untill thasts done the old boy network will survive .
How come you call it MNCW? It used to be MNCR and now it is MNR.
The official reporting mark is MRCW as MNCR was never assigned by FRA and even though in every day use ,the Commuter was dropped in name the official name of Metro North is STIL ,Metro North Commuter Railroad as per New York State charter.
ok, thanks for clearing that up. Think they'll ever ammend the charter?
Yeah, but bear in mind that these were designed by the same folks that brought you the R40's and R42's of similar vintage. Hmmm.
The M-1's are pure junk, the fact that they weren't scrapped several years ago should be a matter of shame for LIRR (mis)managment.
It's amazing how M-1 cars are only 30 years old and in horrible shape, but the R32's are turning the big four O soon and are still running almost like new, they can be around for another 10 years. Like most everying else, Metro North maintains the M-1 cars better than the LIRR, anyone have a horror story to share here that happened on MNR?
Don't forget, the M-1's run over far longer distances and at far higher speeds than the R-32's and perform 90% of their runs exposed to the elements. That definitely shortens their life spans. Depending on the line, R-32's spend a lot of time underground (the E line is 100% underground, for example).
But how long did those old LIRR diesel cars run before they were retired in 2000? They were exposed to the same stress and elements as the M-1 but were around longer.
But they weren't powered - they were trailers. Trailers can run forever, if they don't rust to the ground first. They also traveled at much lower speeds than the M-1s do.
You're saying that the failures in a train car are in the power, the drive and the brakes? Not even the doors?
?
Why? Can't it just go one more stop?
That's what I meant. Ignore the first similar post.
Okay, I didn't know that you couldn't do this ( <5> ) in the subject line. Ignore the first 2 posts on this subject. But seriously, can't the <5> go to 241st St?
Well it can but it makes no sense to bring it all the way to 241st.When the train is dischared it can go straight to the yard.
if the (2) is delayed for a long time you may see a <5> going to E 241 Street or WAKEFIELD-241
It used to. But because the < 5 > went into 239th Street yard after discharging passengers at 241st, crews had to make sure no one was on the train before taking it into the yard. That held up other trains. But in that case < 5 > trains had to reverse direction before going into the yard. Now the trains just go into the yard.
Don't they still have to check the trains at 238th Street to make sure that it's empty?
Yes but it still takes less time this way.
Yes, but walking through the train won't take much time. However, if it goes to 241st Street it's many more steps. At 238th they just discharge the passengers, verify that no passengers are on board and then the train will switch to a yard lead track that's just north of the station. This way takes just a couple of minutes and won't be much of a delay for the other trains. If it goes to 241st Street in addition those first steps the train also has to do a reverse move which would take about 3 times as much time.
Wayne
It did, until 1994/5. Since all the trainsets that the diamond 5 uses come directly from the 239th St. yard in the AM and go directly there in the PM, the termination at 238th St. simplifies things. No reverse moves to get to/from the yard. It also eases congestion at the 241st St. terminal.
From www.wmata.com:
Pentagon Metro station is closed due to police activities. Shuttle bus service is being established from Arlington Cemetery and L'Enfant Plaza to Pentagon City.
More details when (if) I get them.
Went back to the website just after posting this and the message was gone. Also, the 10 minute delay reported on the Blue Line had cleared. I will report more when I am able to.
According to today's Washington Post, the station was closed due to a suspicous package found on the upper level (DC bound) platform near the faregates. The package proved to be harmless.
Maybe another art project ;-)
If it was, a very stupid place to do it. Warning to all: Do NOT try photography in the Pentagon station and NEVER try the Pentagon Bus Station!!! The bus station has signs saying no photography but the rail station might not be allowed either.
What two street intersections in NYC have four (yes, 4) levels of tracks underneath them?
Hint: in one case, a fifth level of tracks is planned.
Note: the answer is not Herald Square or GCT. Those general areas have 4 levels of tracks, but spread some distance apart and not all under the same street intersection.
Question 2 (and I don't know the answer to this one): is 4 (or 5) a world record?
[What two street intersections in NYC have four (yes, 4) levels of tracks underneath them? Hint: in one case, a fifth level of tracks is planned.]
One of them must be Lexington & 63rd, which features the following:
- Lex locals;
- Lex expresses;
- 63rd Street Line southbound (with 2nd Avenue spur track behind false wall);
- 63rd Street Line northbound (with 2nd Avenue spur track behind false wall);
- planned LIRR-to-Grand-Central.
I can't think of the other.
53rd and Park? I don't know how far north and east those two sets of tracks split into bilevel formation.
I'm amazed at how many threes there are.
I hadn't thought of 53rd and Park. The E and V are definitely well on their way to being on separate levels (since by just west of Madison they are truly on 2 levels). I think MNRR is also starting to be on two levels at that point. As you head into GCT, when you see a sign that says "59th Street exit" there are still only 4 tracks on one level, but very soon thereafter things start to split. Probably part of the reason 53rd and 5th is quite deep is so that it has clearance under MNRR.
But there's another one. It's been mentioned several times on this board as having three levels, but that's inaccurate. I've counted stairs and it's really 4 fairly distinct levels.
Given the questioner, I should have figured 14th and 6th would be one of the answers. My mind simply skipped over that section of Manhattan.
what about 34 and 6 ave, you have path, broadway, 6 ave, and amtrack-lirr-nj transit
what about 34 and 6 ave, you have path, broadway, 6 ave, and amtrack-lirr-nj transit
Sorry, LIRR is at 33rd Street (As is the PATH)
Actually, LIRR is under 32nd AND under 33rd. IND is under 6th Ave. BMT is under Broadway and crosses under IND at 33rd. PATH terminates just south of 32nd. So the 4 levels are all within a block and a half of each other, but not exactly in the same intersection.
Similarly at GCT 2 levels of MNRR, the shuttle, the 7, and the Lex all get within a block and a half, but aren't really all in the same place.
1. 14th & 6th Path, 6th Ave local, L, 6th Av Exp
2. 53 & Park two levels GCT leads, two levels IND as it moves to stack @ 'Fifth Av, and the LI connection from 63rd might be five
14th & 6th Path, 6th Ave local, L, 6th Av Exp
The PATH and 6th Avenue Local are, I believe, on the same level.
I think the PATH is a little higher than the 6th Ave local. I noticed it when I entered the station on the downtown side at 14/6. I forget by how much. But I'd say about 5-8 steps.
"But I'd say about 5-8 steps."
20 steps (I counted them).
When you enter the PATH northbound, you cross over the northbound F and then only have to take about 3 more steps down.
The PATH is really about 3/4 of a level higher than the F.
63/Lex (as Gotham Bus Co said), 14/6 (6th Av Local, PATH, Canarsie Line, 6th Av Express)
"14/6 (6th Av Local, PATH, Canarsie Line, 6th Av Express)"
You got it. The express tracks are 4 levels, down, the L is 3 levels down, and the F is 2 levels down. The PATH is 1 (plus a fraction) level down, not 2 levels as people have claimed. To get to the PATH northbound platform from 6th Ave you cross over the F tracks and take just 3 more steps down to the PATH platform.
Question 2 (and I don't know the answer to this one): is 4 (or 5) a world record?
I think it is 4, held equally with Bank (Waterloo & City above Central above Northern above DLR), Baker St (Met up a flight of stairs from H&C/Circle above Bakerloo above Jubilee) and Waterloo (which I think is W&C above Northern above Bakerloo above Jubilee, but I only ever use the Bakerloo Line there so I'm not sure).
The only possible 5 I can think of is République in Paris (5 above 8 which I think may be slightly above 9 which is above 3 above 11).
How about the Les Halles complex in Paris? I am not sure how many levels there are (there seemed to be six when I was there, but I know that shopping does not count).
The RER lines A, B & D and Metro lines 1, 4, 11, 7 & 14 all stop there, or in the vicinity.
The thing with Châtelet - les Halles is it is very dispersed, so the nature of what is a level above what becomes confused and to some degree academic. I can't remember the street names off hand, but from the river northwards the Châtelet stops on lines 7, 11 and 1 are on three separate parallel roughly East-West streets, with line 4 under them and in a vaguely North-South direction. At the extreme North of the complex is the next line 4 station (les Halles). Somewhere closer to les Halles and deep down is the cavernous RER station and I've never quite worked out how line 14 fits into any of this.
A similar situation exists with St Lazare - Haussmann - Havre-Caumartin - Auber - Opéra. I once walked from one end of the complex to the other and it took a VERY long time!
Try this one here:
1) What are the total number of tracks at 111 Street/Roosevelt Ave?
2) Which interlocking or junction is nicknamed "Homeball Alley"?
1. 5 tracks. There are the 2 local tracks, 2 tracks that are leads into Corona Yard, and the "center" express track.
2. Homeball Alley is at 135th Street on the A, B, C, and D lines.
Correct. I know they were easy, but I figured, let me try it out anyway.
Where in Chicago does one find six (6!) levels of track? It's not a street intersection, but a small area. Hint: add the air and the river for eight (8!) levels of transportation.
not sure what 'area' meams but, in the area of the confluence of the N and S Branches of the River the L, the CNW station, the north throat of Chgo Un Sta, CTA Subway, Chicago Tunnel Co. (OOS but there), and on the Merchandise Mart Side the ex CNW freight branch.
That makes maybe six but the area is a bit spread out.
Bingo! My list of six included streetcar tracks on Lake Street (admittedly covered by asphalt) and excluded the C&NW branch under the Mart.
Before the train leaves the station, I hear a buzzer just before the doors close and the train starts. What is this buzzer?
the buzzer is used for communication from Conductor to Engineer.
im not gone tell you what the signals are so we don't get people to see if they can fool the crew opr so.
Why, what a GREAT idea which I never thought of! I'm gunna try it!! Heh, premature door closings galore!
Not going to happen. Conductor's supposed to check their starting lights and the indication fairy has to smile BEFORE the buzz. :)
One buzz stay, don't move
two buzz ready, let's go
And let's not forget the signals back - long buzz to conductor = "You REALLY thought we were going to move? Nah-ah. Open up." and two back to conductor = "Hello? Anybody back there? Lez go ..."
Beulah the Buzzer says, "Aloha" ... Book 'em, Dan-O. :)
And then there's always the MNRR T/O on the intercom back to the C/R going "Would you PLEASE lay off that buzzer?"
Heh. Well, the buzzer communication method predated intercoms and walky-squawkies ... and the motorman could get their revenge by deteriming how LONG that "one buzz" could be. And in older cars, the buzzer was big and bada$$ed ... they'd rattle the car. :)
It wasn't that nasty on the R-1/9s. Too bad they couldn't make it go neener-neener.:)
And several frantic buzzes from the train operator is "I have my break handle out and I'm about to crack open a drunken guy's head if we don't move NOW."
Ah for the glory days of the Arnine where you could pull the brake handle without dumping. :)
I remember on the old (1928) Broad Street Subway cars. If the indicator light (one of two) for the doors was out, the conductor would buzz twice after every stop was complete, throughout the ride. The T/O would buzz back twice before leaving.
The BSS cars (B1-3) had no PA in the cars.
Many of NYC's older cars had no PA either - however the rules prohibited operating if you didn't have indication in NYC. Had to discharge all passengers and take it out of service.
I hope your hearing the buzzer after the doors close >G<.
A train can not leave a terminal until the buzzer signal from the conductor. Even if the motorman has indication he has to wait two from the C/R when leaving a terminal. The T/O can answer with two short ones but this is not required, most answer some do not.
Once on the road and a C/R has to leave their operating position for lets say a door problem. They fix it and then close up they should "pass two" buzzez to the T/O.
If the T/O overshoots the stop marker he is suppose to "pass one long" buzz back to the C/R to tell him not to open up the train isn't platformed.
The signal system has been in use way before an intercom or public address system.
The full buzzer/horn signals and their definitions can be found on this site.
I don't know if they are doing this anymore. I get on the train daily at a terminal station and always ride in the first car, I have not heard a buzzer in quite some time.
Peace,
ANDEE
It should be done. Like Lou stated, the C/R is supposed to give the T/O two after closing the doors at a terminal station. The T/O will then proceed after receiveing the buzzes.
Its still in the rule book and if they don't do it someone is going to get in trouble. It coudl be a quick biz biz or maybe they are using the intercom if the train had one but the intercom should not replace passing of the buz.
What kind of equipment? IIRC certain equipment doesn't buzz in all location, just there the drum switch is set to other than "Thru".
The T/O will also give two buzzes if it's safe for the C/R to open even if he's not facing a board.
For two or three weekends this summer, C trains were running up 6th Avenue, and the T/O had to buzz the C/R at each stop since there are no 8-car C/R boards on the line (but there are 8-car stop markers). I was riding up front with a T/O who had apparently just started for the day; it took him two stops to figure out why his C/R was refusing to open the doors on his own.
Yeah, the two from the T/O is merely a courtesy and not required before moving out. BUT a C/R HAS to give the two long buzzes as a way of indicating 'ALL CLEAR'.
Or the train comes to an unscheduled stop.
"vershooting the stop." Is reverse while in revenue operation totally forbidden in NYC? I was on a Market St. train in Philly that did back up but until then, I did not even know that subways could go in reverse. (That was prior to the Queens Blvd incident).
In a word, YES! although from a recent article in the SI Advance, SIRT operators do back up in revenue service.
SIRT may have different rules.
"overshooting the stop." Is reverse while in revenue operation totally forbidden in NYC? I was on a Market St. train in Philly that did back up but until then, I did not even know that subways could go in reverse. (That was prior to the Queens Blvd incident).
As I was riding to Philadelphia on NJT/SEPTA last weekend, I noticed a little something. As we passed the old Boonton Line before crossing Portal Draw, I noticed that DB Draw was left in the open position. I know that section of the Boonton Line was abandoned by NJ Transit, but doesn't any freight service still operate along that portion of the line? Or is it officially abandoned and scheduled for demolition?
I think the frieghts only use it once or twice a week. On those days they lower it but otherwise it is left up.
it was open on weekends any but now it almost all the time
How do they lower a rotating bridge?
-Hank
The frieght service is run by the New York & Greenwood Lake Railway
(NYGL).
Not by NS?
How did operators set the colors on marker lights? Were there multiple bulbs or some kind of rotating lens? How were they accessed, especially the one opposite the operators cab?
Kind of a moot point now, but still curious.
bill
On many of the older trains, they were little colored filters in a sliding bar (sorta like a small tennis racket with a color filter on the round end) in front of the bulb. You'd slide the appropriate one over and the others would be to the side out of the light. On the newer cars, you had the color filters on a cylinder that you'd turn so the proper one was facing forward into the fresnel lens.
Bonus points for any motormen (Steve B 8th Ave Exp and other Branford members are disqualified, that'd be cheating) who remember where the color paddles are hidden on the CAB side of an Arnine and we'll give you a nostalgic, genuine good old fashioned, egg-cream flavored Bronx cheer!
Bonus points for any motormen (Steve B 8th Ave Exp and other Branford members are disqualified, that'd be cheating) who remember where the color paddles are hidden on the CAB side of an Arnine and we'll give you a nostalgic, genuine good old fashioned, egg-cream flavored Bronx cheer!
Yes, *I* KNEW where they were on the redbird and was playing with them, but I could not find them on the arnine. Later examination of the arnine from the outside said that I was looking in the wrong place, but I didn't get a chance to go back into the cab and look again. And waht about the portside of the car. where is that conrol. I thought that it was behind the ad panel, but I either didn't see it or couldn't open the panel.
Elias
Well, since there's been no takers ... the OFFside marker is up under the curved advertising panel above the storm door, all the way over to the left and up top. You can see them and the bulb readily. The CAB side marker light is INSIDE the cab, above the roofline and a spring loaded little door on the ceiling with an oval cutout just large enough for your hand to get up there is provided to reach the paddle sliders up there, change bulb, or store tools.
When I first saw 1689 again, I had forgotten - kept looking for it on the RIGHT side of the roll signs and couldn't find the damn thing for a couple of minutes until it all came back after 30 years. They hid it WELL ... heh.
Yeah, I do remember you were wondering about that while 1689 was waking up.:)
It made me crazy because so many of them had the cabside marker up there next to the roll sign. We didn't get many R-9's on the D train. :)
IIRC by the time you were working the D line, most of the oldtimers were R-4s.
There were a lot of 3 digits, and not quite as many 4 digit cars. When you work them, you really don't pay much attention to what you got (unless it was a repeat offender) and the only time you really bothered with car numbers was when you had to write them up. The Westinghouse controls behaved differently from the GE's and THAT seemed pretty evenly divided by "pot luck" ... but what you had for a throttle and what you had for a brake stand was what you paid attention to, as well as trying to see if that switch on the bottom threw the headlights or if it was the reverser. The cab door switch panels varied a bit, but it was a simple matter of checking it rather than caring whether it was an R4, an R6 or whatever. At least to those of us who had to climb in them.
So chances are you're right, didn't notice much at the time though there were SOME who were giddy when they got 6's, the rest of us didn't care as long as we made it to the other end and had some motors. I preferred the GE's to the Westinghouses, but I was in a minority of that opinion among many old timers. 1689 felt VERY familiar, so I'd bet there were a good amount of 9's out there at the time too.
Whoops ... the OFF-side marker lights were accessible by dropping the front ceiling advertising hatch. Inside were your markers (except for Arnines and probably others) and your roll sign. On some cars, you could throw your COAT up there. There were also usually spare bulbs, fuses, lost wrenches and other crusty things up there too. There was a wee bit of room up there on the older cars. Forgot to answer part two. :)
Isn't the off-side marker handle behind the swing-out advertising
panel adjacent to the RAILFAN WINDOW? The swing-down panel above
the storm door just has the end route and destination signs.
On some cars, there's a panel. On Arnines, the offside marker flags are to the left of the rollsign in the drop down. The CAB side one is amusingly located though. I still won't rat myself out and give it up, but I *know* YOU know where it is, found handles and tools up there. :)
I'm sure it's where you expect on da reboid at Branford, that's where they were on the newer cars though if I remember correctly it was in the same location on the 32's as on the Arnines, though that might have changed when they stuffed the air conditioning nonsense up there.
Next time you're up there, drop by the barn, climb up on 1689 and check it out for yourself ... moo!
I still won't rat myself out and give it up, but
What's the danger, that a railfan will tamper with an R-9
in service and cause the wrong lineup to be given??
You're talking about the little handhole flap to get at
the 3 paddles. Yes, not very intuitive. The early R-types
had a similar arrangement with a single red panel for the
headlight/marker light. I think that was the R1 and R4,
not sure about the R6 order. Later cars had the two bulbs
in each compartment, with a red filter between them, automatically
controlled from the reverse key and coupler switch.
Already gave it up ... no, no fear of nefarious BMT type people commandeering 1689, more a "does anybody know where it is" that apparently went nowhere. I was embarassed when I couldn't remember where it was myself since the Arnines we usually got on the concourse had access to both upper markers through the drop down lid, but apparently the nines had that flap in the ceiling. I'd forgotten about it and it drove me nuts for several minutes until I finally remembered where it was.
Like they say, it's the mind that goes first. Good thing it's not a vital organ. :)
Does the 5 train use 239st, E180st, or unionport yard? Also, why do the 2/5 trains need THREE yards? I think that that's a bit excessive.
The 5 uses both E180 and Unionport yards while the 2 uses 239th St yard.
Yes, and to add to that, any 5 train that runs to 238th St-Nereid Avenue is usually laid up in a certain area of the 239th St Yard.
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Ok here are all the Yard # 5 train lay up and night and during the day. E 180 YD, Unionport YD, E 239 YD, and Livonia YD.
As to where they're inspected/maintained, that's E. 180th Street. Major work is done at 207th Street Overhaul Shop, as it is with all IRT equipment (except #7 equipment, which is "main shopped" at Coney Island Overhaul Shops).
David
Back in the day, the 2 had four yards to lay up. Then it switched Bklyn terminals with the 3 and now have 239 yard to itself. Before the 2 had 239St yard and Livonia yard for inspections/work and used Unionport/E180St for layups if need be.
Did anyone else witness yesterdays trama at sixth Ave? I just want to know did anyone know him? Why was he so depressed? How about that poor train operator, I can't imagine what he is going through.
#8 for this silly season between thanksgiving and new years. 8 since november 27. Time of year - loneliness - financial woes? Who knows. The 45 Y/O white male and the 30 Y/O black male 2 days earlier and the 6 before them. All relegated to case #s on some police report. No different than last year! Why do you ask?
More likely the time of year than the fact that it's the holiday season. Seasonal depression is probably worse here, farther north, where the days get relatively shorter in the late fall. It's so heartbreaking; you just wish you could go back and catch them and tell them there's another way out.
Statistics do not support the popular theory that suicidal behavoir increases during the holiday season. Rates are remarkably similar throughout the year. I would imagine, therefore, that the recent increase in the number of subway jumpers is just a fluke, not indicative of any long-term trends.
How about the state of the economy? I know some people who haven't gotten a decent paying job in nearly a year....that could send some to desparation...
Nobody wants to call the economic state what it really is: a depression and NOT a recession...guess the 'powers that be' don't want to scare the populous.
"...#8 for this silly season..." I think your remarks are a tad insensitive. We are talking about human lives here.
Actually, I think you misread my mood. You are entitled to your opinion, however.
What time did this happen? I rode the L around 1:30 from Union Square to Livonia and back to 6th Avenue. Was that before or after?
I ask because I'm wondering if this explains why the midday GO (split service at Broadway Junction) wasn't in effect.
I think it happened about 8:30 am.
And might that have cancelled the GO for the entire day?
Incidentally, the realignment is not yet complete -- the new tracks still aren't connected at either end. Wasn't it supposed to be done by now? Did the cancellation of last weekend's GO doom the project until spring?
I see you like coming to my stop(Livonia Ave). I mean I passed by your stop everyday that I work(actually stopping there on ALL THREE TRIPS on Tuesdays.) :) :) But anyhow, all GOs were cancelled last week due to the strike threat and I believe last week was supposed to be the week of the connection. I gotta go to Sutter and take some pics b4 it goes bye-bye.
Mike, get a couple of shots for me...I'll swap you a copy of the LIRR Belmont Spur/IRT connection shot I just acquired last night :)
I suppose I do end up at Livonia more often than the average Manhattan resident -- I would have crossed under at Sutter but I was at the north end of the train and I didn't feel like walking all the way to the other end and back, so I stayed on to Livonia, where the crossunder is in the middle.
Given how often you're in my neighborhood, we really should meet one of these days. Email me your schedule if you're interested -- I don't bite unless you skip my stop, and that doesn't seem to happen much these days.
I know the weekend GO's were cancelled. I didn't know the weekday GO's were, too. I think David-with-no-last-name posted that, if the work wasn't complete by now, it would be put on hold until spring, so it looks like you have some time left for your photography.
The weekday GO wasn't cancelled at all.Well at least not yesterday.
I rode the last L train that was ending at Broadway Junction and turning back while also the last shuttle to Canarsie left a few mintues later so it happened yesterday,that's for sure.
Correct. The "old" connection will remain in place until the spring.
David
Well, today it looks like everything is "normal" on the L line.
What's 'normal' about the L line? :)
The GO might have been cancelled for 1 day because of the customer incident. By the time the body was removed from the roadbed and the train shopped for inspection and the train crew being treated for trama it was probably too late to start the GO that day.
Not because of the incident, the GO probably has been postponed until after the holidays.
I was at the Grand Army Plaza library this evening after work and was routinely searching through their archives, when I came across an odd picture that at first I thought was the Times Square shuttle. However, under closer examination (of a written identification on the back of the of the xerox) I learned that it was a shot of the LIRR Atlantic Avenue connection to the IRT mainline (aka Belmont's Spur) as seen from the bare roadbed of the spur looking toward the merge area of Atlantic Terminal. At some point I will scan the image and get it posted here....Date of pic is June 1, 1908
When I was a teen, that opening (it was curved) was OPEN and visible. Don't think it had any tracks on it. This is back when on the northbound platform of the IRT, there was a GATE separating the IRT and the LIRR at a diagonal to the IRT line (like 45 degrees or so) ... last time I was there, it had been walled off.
The spur is still visable from the IRT platform. However it has long since been cut off from the LIRR. I think at one time it was used mostly when August Belmont had his private train and liked spending an afternoon at Belmont Racetrack. Belmont died in 1924 so the spur has probably not been used by then. In any event the spur was cut off when the mezzazine for the IRT/LIRR complex was built.
IIRC there was also a spur that connected the IRT with what would now be Metro North at Grand Central.
Yeah, that connection's been denied forever ... but I saw it and there WERE ties (rotted and old) and very CLEAR signs of a connection there at the north end of the northboud outer track and the LIRR trains behind it. MP54's still roamed the line at the time, mostly Hemphead-bound jobbies. The connection was gone, but no question that it was for real and THERE. I have no idea though of what it looks like today. My very first job in 1968 was out on Beverley and Nostrand, and that meant the 4 train at the time. Got to see that from the foamer glass each night on my way home to Da Bronix ...
I'll concur with Kevin, the trackless connection was there.
IIRC, from the early fifties, the alignment would be right
in front of what were the LIRR ticket windows on the platform
level at that time.
;-) Sparky
I agree also. I have seen the connection from the IRT tracks. It all adds up. There was a connection, the question is just whether or not it was ever used.
---Brian Weinberg
www.railfanwindow.com
I think the spur was broken by the early 1920's. Considering that the BRT/LIRR connection upstairs was broken in 1918 makes it likely.
I'll join the crowd agreeing that the connection, minus tracks, WAS there. I lived in Flatbush area in the latter half of the 1950's, and rode the IRT past that spot frequently. The IRT tower was visible across the empty "right-of-way" leading to the LIRR. I always wondered what it was all about in those days, and never learned its reason for existence until long after I moved to California.
But I thought someone (Ziel, Seyfried??)found a picture from about 1915 of them ripping out the tracks. The Picture, I believe was found sometime around 1990.
Bob...thanks for that info. I'll have to track that down too!
Please read my post...I said the connection was there -- MINUS TRACKS.
One could tell thee was a trackway there very easily in the 1950's.
> IIRC there was also a spur that connected the IRT with what would > now be Metro North at Grand Central.
Cite?
I bet he's thinking about the hotel siding.
Maybe it was the hotel siding. But I remember one day I was wondering around the lower level, I saw a track that led toward a metal gate.
IIRC about the location, the ROW of the original subway passes just behind it. I also remember walking to the tower at Grand Central one day years ago. The tower is in the tunnel. And I remember seeing a route from the ROW that went into the "wall". I was too busy trying to make the toilet to be exploring the tunnel area.
That ROW that went to the "wall" is the connecttion from the southbound local track to the 42nd Street Shuttle. There was also a photo in one of the recent NY Subway Calendars (by Bill Newkirk) with a train on what was the abandoned express track connection to the shuttle (part of the original route).
Dave, you're thinking of the 'other end' by the Belmont Hotel...
Wasn't The Belmont hotel "spur" merely a portal in the wall of the southbound IRT local track in the tunnel eats of the Grand Central (now shuttle) station?
The Belmont Spur has only recently been covered over by a construction contractor and is now totally unrecognizable.
The ROW nearest the terminal is now occuppied by the LIRR ticket/information booth (and has been for decades).
And as I've said elsewhere, I think the spur was broken/taken out when August Belmont died in 1924. And maybe before then.
Yes. If the 'pro' Belmont Spur crowd is right, the tracks only were in there for little more than 10-12 years or so.
And I don't think the spur was used that much to begin with.
I'd have to agree with you there. Aside from August Belmont's car 'the Mineola' -- and perhaps some MOW equipment -- I'd guess no other IRT cars ventured through the switch onto LIRR trackage.
Could that spur have also been used to deliver new equipment to the IRT?
Just a wild thought.....
Good thought...but not sure if the cars of that era...Gibbs/Hi V's...were floated or railroaded into the system....
Big question ... is there a switch and track? We all know that there was a trackbed, but the argument is over whether there was a track.
Paul, no track but concreted roadbed and in the distance (just before the switch into the N/B IRT local track) is an interlocking signal. No track or ties (a work gang is visit in the distance next to the signal). I forgot to mention that the back of the original photo -- of which I have a xerox -- has the line 'Brooklyn Eagle -- June 1, 1908'. The original was also in poor shape -- a couple chunks missing off the right hand side. Also, as was popular in that period the picture has a heavy amount of photo-retouching evident.
Story HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's awful! That's one of the contracts I monintor the budget for. Already the head of SIRT and the construction manager for the contractor have been knocked out of action with heart attacks. What next?
Construction Worker Crushed by Forklift
Melanie Lefkowitz
December 20, 2002
A construction worker was crushed and killed yesterday when the forklift he was operating toppled over while lifting a heavy container near the St. George Ferry Terminal on Staten Island, authorities said.
Mensur Capa, 41, of Staten Island, who was working on a signal-modernization project for the Staten Island Railway, was killed about 11 a.m. when the forklift tilted because of the container's weight, said Charles Seaton, a spokesman for New York City Transit.
Police said Capa jumped off the forklift as it began turning over and was trapped beneath the machine.
Emergency crews from the Police Department, Fire Department and the Office of Emergency Management responded to the scene at Richmond Terrace. Capa was pronounced dead at the scene, and the accident still was under investigation last night.
Capa worked as a masonry contractor for the project's contractor, Ferranto Construction Co., Seaton said.
Copyright © 2002, Newsday, Inc.
How stupid can people be? Very stupid. Maybe this one is for the Darwin Awards.
#3 West End Jeff
How stupid can people be? Very stupid. Maybe this one is for the Darwin Awards.
I would caution against jumping to any conclusions just yet. Forklifts can be dangerous to operate, and accidents sometimes happen even when safety precautions have been followed.
Can you elaborate? I don't see it as anything but a tragic accident.
Agreed, I don't know where he gets this Darwin award crap from. I think it's totally uncalled for.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why the Darwin nomination? Because the operator jumped off as it began to turn over. Forklifts today, thanks to OSHA, have a safety cage designed to protect the operator in the event that the forklift overturns. He would most likely have received only minor injuries had he remained seated, leaning away from the ground as the forklift overturned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See:
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1040399135102150.xml
According to this article in the Staten Island Advance, the piece of equiptment was considerably more complicated than a forklift.
We don't know what he was lifting and whether it might have crushed any cage on the lift. Nor do we know if perhaps he was thrown from the tipping piece of equiptment but reported by a witness to have
"jumped from it".
There seems to be a immediate presumption on this board that anyone who is killed on or near a railroad has been killed as a direct result of their own stupidity. Unless, of course that person is a railroad employee -- then it's an unsafe working condition. Perhaps -- maybe just once in a while -- there's an exception to that rule.
CG
According to this article in the Staten Island Advance, the piece of equiptment was considerably more complicated than a forklift.
Now that we have a more accurate description of the machine: it is designed to lift and move significantly higher weights than a forklift is, while standing still. The article noted that it did not have its stabilizing arms deployed - mistake number one - and that it was overloaded (mistake number two). And I wouldn't be surprised if there was also mistake number three at play: the operator may have been trying to move the machine while the load was suspended in the air. I've seen that done, and it's dangerous even when the machine isn't anywhere near its load limit.
... perhaps he was thrown from the tipping piece of equiptment but reported by a witness to have "jumped from it".
Also a possibility, which if true means he committed another mistake: failure to wear his seat belt (yes, these machines are so equipped).
There seems to be a immediate presumption on this board that anyone who is killed on or near a railroad has been killed as a direct result of their own stupidity. Unless, of course that person is a railroad employee -- then it's an unsafe working condition. Perhaps -- maybe just once in a while -- there's an exception to that rule.
I've noticed that too, and you're absolutely right. Most of the time the persons involved have been major contributors to their own demise, railroad employees included. Carelessness and complascence are the biggest factors. Working conditions on a railroad are often not the safest, but the biggest factor influencing safety - by a wide margin - is the people involved, and the people generally know just what the safety considerations are. They simply don't always follow the rules, common sense, or both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is seriously bad. That is five killed in less than two years. We were told the average in the "bad old days" was three deaths per year, but it had been reduced to one every three years. Now that is shot to hell.
"... perhaps he was thrown from the tipping piece of equiptment but reported by a witness to have "jumped from it".
"Also a possibility, which if true means he committed another mistake: failure to wear his seat belt (yes, these machines are so equipped)."
Machine (as delivered to property) did *not* have seat belt (under investigation). Witnesses are probably correct, he tried to jump from rig and got crushed by it.
>>> Now that we have a more accurate description of the machine: it is designed to lift and move significantly higher weights than a forklift is, while standing still. <<<
Here are pictures of the type of equipment involved. These are definitely not just fork lifts, but look like they are intended to move loads. I am sure when moving the load must be "tucked in" close to the body, and would be lighter than when working in a stationary position with outriggers.
http://www.pettibone-mi.com/
Tom
"Here are pictures of the type of equipment involved. These are definitely not just fork lifts, but look like they are intended to move loads. I am sure when moving the load must be "tucked in" close to the body, and would be lighter than when working in a stationary position with outriggers."
The rig, tho similar, was made by Lull. It had no outriggers. It had a rated *maximum* (or best case) load of 6000 lbs; the container was 7200 lbs. The boom was not "tucked in."
Now that we have a more accurate description of the machine... mistake number one... mistake number three at play: the operator...
All very nice to blame the operator, but where is the training? More frequently than not, operator stupidity results from inadequate training. We don't often get pilots trying to land the plane with the wheels up (although instances of this happening has been more frequent since deregulation). Usually, if the pilot/operator does something that is so blatantly stupid, it's not because they don't value their life -- it's because they haven't been told what to do and what not to do.
AEM7
"All very nice to blame the operator, but where is the training? More frequently than not, operator stupidity results from inadequate training."
Yes; -- well take that up with the (sub)contractor. NYCT is not responsible for training the employee (not that you said it was). And if employee was not adequately trained to operate the rig, he should not have been operating it.
There was a picture in the print editions of the Friday Daily Snooze. It looks to be more of a small crane than a forklift.
Peace,
ANDEE
Though some accdients with forklifts are inevitable, this one looks like the operator might have been careless. Look at the threads.
#3 West End Jeff
Got on the bus last night and dipped once. Five minutes later a poor tourist gets on with two $1 bills. Gave her 50 cents and dipped for her.
Changed to the subway 20 minutes later. When I swiped, the display showed two transfers.
Question: How long after you dip can you dip again to generate the extra transfer?
Probably within the infamous 18 minutes. Because that is when the first transfer expires and the timing is "reset"
I don't think so, the first transfer is good for 2:18, not 18...
The explanation may have been wrong but the number is still a good guess.
My apologies, I left off the 2 hours part.
When you use a Pay-Per-Ride Metrocard, you get up to four free transfers IF you swipe them at the same station WITHIN 6 minutes. Therefore, if you swipe once then two minutes later you swipe again at the same station or bus, you get two transfers encoded on the card. But if you swipe once and do it again as before seven minutes later, you get the transfer from the second swipe. So only transfers can be encoded on the card within a six-minute period.
I don't think he was using an unlimited card. I think it was a Pay-per-ride card.
It's interesting that it works that way, i.e. a single MC can hold 4 Transfers because four folks can use one value card.
Now here you go trying to us a MC on the same bus, but NOT at the same time, so it doesn't reject. Instead it logs the second of four fares.
If it is a pay-per-ride card, yuo can use it up to 4 times at once. I guess you were invoking that rule. It is only the unlimited can only be used once every 18 minutes on the same bus line or at the same subway station.
--Brian
Let me try: Each bus line and each station has a code such as sub 1234 or bus 5678.( I do not have a full list of codes and wont print those I do have.) When a card is swiped or dipped it records the time used alogn with the place such as sub 1234. Let's say you use a regular card on the bus and dip twice. It records two transfers. You have two houirs to use the transfer on the subway. You'd swipe once and the turnstile displays shows "Two transfers OK" and both enter, one at a time. if you start on the subway you'd swipe twice and dip once on the bus.If you wait beyond the two hours (or 2 hours and 18 minutes) the transfer "vanishes" and a second fare is deducted. For those cases where a subway to suwbay rtansfer is approved such as Court Sduare G to the 7 you do not get a third leg. ie- you start on bus to 179 and get off for the 7 at 23-Ely. You used the transfer at 179 and a full afer is deducted.
But do you know the answer to the original question? If you swipe once, and then swipe again x minutes later, it counts as two concurrent swipes and results in 2 concurrent transfers being allowed on your card.
How large can x be? My guess (with no evidence whatsoever) is 18 minutes.
Mine is 7. As you may remember, the Unlimiteds can't be used for 7 minutes now. It was 18 to begin with but the time was reduced. Somone else had suggested 6 elsewhere in the thread, I think that if you swipe your card at 12:01:00, you will get transfers until 12:06:59. At 12:07:00, a fare would be deducted.
12:01 to 12:07 AM is 6 minutes (7 minus 1)
I don't think so. I have dipped someone ten minutes after using the card and gone in the subway and swiped to reveal only transfer. The question is how long after the first dip do you have to get a multiple free transfers if you dip again before you swipe?
I don't think so. I have dipped someone ten minutes after using the card and gone in the subway and swiped to reveal only one transfer. The question is how long after the first dip do you have to get a multiple free transfers if you dip again before you swipe?
The new contract is now availabel on www.stationreporter.net as four PDF files.
Our office secretary just told us that while she was waiting for a Brooklyn bound M at Broad, a J entered into the station. A seemingly drunk woman initially refused to get off the train. After leaving the train, the doors closed then supposedly was leaning on the train as it started to pull out of the station. Apparently she fell onto the tracks. Our secretary didn't stay for all the events to unfold, but she heard that the passenger did not make it. Anyone else hear about this?
yeah I heard it on the radio ,Seems the C/R is at fault in this situation .If he was observing the platform properly this never would of happened.
From 10:30pm on 12/28 until 8:30am on 12/29, northbound 2 trains will be running up the East Side from Nevins to Wall, then changing ends, passing through the South Ferry outer loop, and resuming regular service at Chambers.
Here's the advisory.
(I wonder if this will interfere with 5 operations -- the 5 still runs to Bowling Green at 10:30pm. Maybe it will be cut back to E180 early.)
Not really, this GO was already done within a couple of weeks after SF loop reopening. So this will be the second go' round for this GO since Greenwich St reopening.
Also the last 5 train to the Bx is scheduled to leave BG @ 10:21pm (Sat nite). There will be about 20 minute gap from that time until the first 2 train rolls through.
Yah, I know that 22:21 Bowling Green very well.
Thats you! Ok. :) 10:30pm Sat night, Im supposed to be at Chambers Street, so Ill probabably be the last normal train to go through.
Ok, So you must follow me in the Bronx then. Mott like to hold me to time but you alway pop up on the board and they have to let me go.
Well, I guess I always come to your rescue.:):)
Yes, you do keep up the great work!! Happy Holidays!
On Saaturday and Sunday, #5 train service in Manhattan ends earlier at 10:30 PM. Do note that the hours that the GO take place are when the #5 Bronx Shuttle is running, so it will not interfere with the #2 trains running the South Ferry loop. Not too long ago, weekend #5 (and #3 train service) in Manhattan ended at 9 PM each night.
You're right, this GO seems to be timed around the 5. The last through 5 on Saturday leaves Bowling Green at 10:21pm; the first through 5 on Sunday reaches Bowling Green at 8:35am.
But did you take a look at that weekend GO on the A line (Manhattan Bound A runs express from Euclid Ave to Broadway-East New York, from 11:30 PM Friday 12/20 to 5 AM Monday 12/23)
What about the C train? Is it running that weekend, if so why is NYCT neglecting to include it in the Service Advisories page on their web site, ("NO DIVERSIONS SCHEDULED") OR in the weekend service changes poster? C service runs on Saturday from 6 AM to 10:30 PM and Sunday from about 7:30 AM to 10:30 PM.
Another vague G.O.
Good question. Maybe the C isn't running all weekend so the A's filling in as the local. If so, it should certainly be posted somewhere (on the C page if not also on the A page).
What they do is send the last few #5 trains to Brooklyn Bridge instead.
Yesterday I posted about my experience Wednesday night on an LIRR M-1 from Flatbush Avenue to Far Rockaway that lost all power at Valley Stream and had to be towed to the yard (not sure which) thereby stranding hundreds of passengers at Valley Stream. We had to wait 30 minutes for a replacement train to arrive from Jamaica.
Who says lightning doesn't strike twice?
Last night, I caught another 6:59 out of Flatbush Avenue to Far Rock. This time, the train made it as far as Jamaica. After getting the "all aboard," the doors opened and closed a few times and I heard a lot of hissing coming from the brakes. After about 10 minutes of waiting, the engineer came on and told us that due to a braking malfunction, the train was being taken out of service. Once again, I and about 250 fellow travelers exited the train to the platform. This time, the wait for the replacement train was much less, as the Hillside Yard is very close to Jamaica station.
Funny part was that I had the same crew on both nights. I joked with one of the conductors that this was getting to be a habit. She told me that she couldn't stand the M-1's and that they were never designed to last more than 15 years.
Who knows what will happen tonight????
You know that there are 700 some odd M-1's and even if each broke down once a year that would still average out to 2 failures per day.
Given how acient the propulsion systems are, I'm amazed they work 1/2 the time they do. They get the snot beaten out of them, must be maintenance nightmares, and yet they manage to work (most of the time).
Thankfully, the M-7's have up to date propulsion systems (IGBT inverters, no less!). i bet the LIRR will save a bundle on the fleet once the bugs are all squashed.
Let's see, only a few line breakers to maintain (they're probbably off load operated anyway), no brushes, no cam group, no series/parrallel contactors, no junk ingestion into the motors...
I think really all that ever gets done to an inverter besides an insulation inspection is a capacitor replacement every few years. The motors are as close to maintenance free as you get. Might even be totally sealed at that power level.
With all of that, the LIRR should save a LOT with the new fleet, simply because there's fewer adjustments and few mechanical parts to break.
I was just wondering.
Given all of the subway suicides since the beginning of November that may be attributable to holiday depression, does NYCT issue any special orders regarding speed restrictions on entering stations during those months?
I've never heard of the TA slowing down because of suicide scares. I doubt it will happen at all. {It hasn't happened yet from what I've seen.}
The following was distributed to ALL employees of the New York Power
Authority at 1046 today. I've copied and posted for ALL to read.
Thank you, Seasons Greetings,
;-Sparky
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Telephone Scam
It has come to our attention that a new telephone scam is now making the rounds through the general public. A person receives a call from an individual claiming to be an AT&T technician performing a line test. They will tell you that they need your assistance to complete the test and ask you to dial 9, 0, and then # (the pound sign) and hang up. If you do this, you will give the person access to your telephone line and long distance service. You will then be billed for any long distance calls that they make.
THIS IS NOT A JOKE OR A RUMOR. The Inspector General’s Office, through Verizon Security, has verified that this is a legitimate concern. If you do receive a call like this either at home or the office, immediately hang up. If you are at home you may then dial *57 (star 57) which will lock the last number you received a call from onto your records. Then notify your local police and advise them that you have locked in the number. ONLY the police will be able to retrieve that number.
Please advise other members of your family of this and do not become a victim to this scam, you may find yourself facing large long distance bills if you do.
Have a safe and happy holiday season
Except that this hasn't worked in years... someone's pulling the wool over NYPA's eyes. The ONLY systems where this will work are those businesses that use long-discontinued Centrex systems that are analog-capable only. I've verified this information on my employer's intranet... and those of you who know where I work know that's an unimpeachable source for this kind of information.
Someone at NYPA's been hoaxed, and fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the NYPA still has some of those old Centrex systems in some of their premeses and a scammer is aware of this and is targeting it specifically, the warning would still be valid for NYPA employees, though.
-Robert King
We're talking systems that were last installed in 1978 or 1979... I doubt it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They'd be gone by now? You're probably right, especially since a lot of that kind of equipment would have been taken out and replaced a few years ago over Y2K compliance concerns. But, on the other hand, I've seen PBXs from the 60s still running so I imagine it's possible that there'd be some 25 year old equipment around still, though unlikely...
-Robert King
Some areas of the TA still have rotary phones.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I should tell you guys about the equipment still installed at the high school I graduated from a couple of years ago. Most of it wasn't in use anymore but had never been removed, and a lot of it was really wild stuff...
-Robert King
It will work on older PBX and Centrex and there are still some around in the Dept. of Education.
Some areas of the TA still have rotary phones.
You mean they got rid of the homing pigeons???
I had my hopes up for some good old fashioned railroad telegraph keys.
Oh well...
-Robert King
Yes, they'd be gone by now... we're talking about equipment that doesn't have the capability of supporting modern fax machines or computer modems, among other things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, that would be cause for quick replacement...
-Robert King
I told him that, this types of things are worse then a virus its the same as chain letter emails. Pass this on or you'll get bad luck type stuff.
While I agree people should be aware of this, lets not get this board into a general clearinghouse of scams, spam prevention, virus awareness etc. There are other sites for that.
Dave,
Your being the host of this web site, I adhere to your common sense
of not using it as a clearing house. Kindly delete the post and
let's all keep peace in this "Holiday Season".
;) ~ Sparky
On that note, check the following site:
Urban Legends Reference Pages Absolute best place around to check out all the crap. I don't recieve them anymore, because I came down harshly on the people who sent it to me. As in 'Hey Dumbass, you sent this to me three times in the last month, and you still believe it?'. I spared no relative. My mom got one too.
-Hank
Unless of course it involves subways!!
rigins: Is this scam possible? Technically, yes. This trick can work
with business phone systems or switchboards where pressing '9' is
the signal to obtain an outside line, and where there are no
restrictions placed on outgoing calls. (As many of us know, our
employers' phone systems are often configured to prevent us from
making long-distance calls from our desks.) We can't give any more
definitive information than to say that this is possible, since there are
so many different types of phone systems all throughout the USA and
the rest of the world.
Do you, as the average residential or cell phone customer (in the USA,
at least), have to worry about this scam? No, not unless your home
phone requires you to press '9' to obtain an outside line. Otherwise,
the only result you'll obtain from trying this is likely to be a fast busy
signal. However, this isn't to say you shouldn't be wary of phone
scams at all. Telecommunications fraud is a rather unfortunate, yet
common, occurrence in today's high-tech age, and there are many
ways that someone can run up your phone bill without your
knowledge. This particular scam is usually directed towards
businesses, government agencies, and universities. It is known as
"social engineering," where a caller convinces you that they work for
the phone company (usually AT&T or your local Bell company) and
somehow gets connected to an outside line, where they can run up
significant charges. Every phone system is slightly different, and it
takes a different combination of numbers to be able to transfer a
crook into high long distance bills. Here are some examples of some
similar scams and how they work:
>>>Here are some examples of some
similar scams and how they work: <<<
we're waiting.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> we're waiting. <<<
Heh heh, some guys never catch on when they have been scammed. :-)
Tom
>>> The following was distributed to ALL employees of the New York Power Authority at 1046 today <<<
I do not know whether this so called scam is just an urban legend or is possible, but a similar warning from the local police department was posted on the bulletin board at the senior housing community where I live in California almost a year ago. I do not remember what the digits were in that memo, but I do not think they were "9" and "0." The local service in this area is also provided by Verizon, but of course most phones here are single lines, not Centrex.
Tom
We actually had that sort ofnotice posted where I work!!
It was *90 (Star 90).
Snopes.com
Thanx for the lookout, Sparky!
I just got this in my e-mail:
---------------------------------------
WARNING!!!
It has come to our attention that another telephone scam warning message is now making the rounds.
This warning is virtually identical to the warnings that have been clogging email boxes since the mid 1990's. It can be identified with the phrase, "THIS IS NOT A JOKE OR A RUMOR", and a return address that ends in "@aol.com" and it urges you to forward this message to as many people as you can, thus clogging up inboxes around the world.
Please do not become a victim to this scam, if you receive this message DO NOT FORWARD IT! DELETE IT IMMEDIATLY!
For more info read:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/jailcall.htm
The "forward this to everybody" is the prime spotting feature of scams, also important to spot it as a scam is "AOL, Microsoft, McAfee or CNN" being the "lab" that first discovered it. Hopefully as folks get to spot the warning signs better, we won't be reading about these neverending manual labor (Amish?) viruses here on subtalk. :)
Whoops! Scratch McAfee and substitute "IBM" ... brain cramp ...
No, you see McAfee and Symantec listed as well. Especially in ones that try to convinceyou to delete windows system files.
-Hank
Yeah, I've seen a couple of those - but the usual ones cite companies that AREN'T in the "virus business" and those are automatically suspect. When the names of "real" AV companies are mentioned, then a visit to that specific vendor's site is in order. On the rare occasion when McAfee or Symantec suggests "notify everybody in your address book, ding-ding-ding, orange alert" then they would have the good right there on their main page. Lotsa folks get taken in without checking. Oh, for the days when they taught "introduction to newspaper readin'" in school. :)
Here's a rare pic of the M-1, R1 & R44 coupled to each other:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r44/r44-399.jpg
-AcelaExpress2005
How is it rare when it is on this site?
Anyway the M1 is NOT coupled to the R9 (coupler transition car). It is sharing the same track, but not coupled.
The R9 has "MCB" stenciled on the end closest to the M1, which might imply that they are indeed coupled.
You may be right, though. I presume a diesel was used as the motive power.
Is this pic from the R44 test on the LIRR?
Except M1 cars do not have MCB couplers.
Back when I did the TA shuffle, they still had some Arnines over yonder. I was told they used "cobbage" to couple up and the MCB end was part of the dance. Whatever it was they did though definitely used adaptors so I was told as they pointed out specific cars that I was not to board or move without orders. That's the reason why I remember that. Might have been an adaptor between the MCB end and whatever LIRR was using, but it was a big funky piece of couplage that was left on that end of the car on the floor.
Are the R1/9 and the M1 really coupled? It looks close, but I'd say they're just maybe touching each other, even then, thats a pretty big gap between them, and the R1/9 must have had one heck of an extention on the coupler to reach the M1. Looks like the shot was on a layup track or something, they're clearly not moving, pigeons are sitting on them.
Would the R1/9s be modified to couple with the R44s so as to protect them from the brunt of a head on? What modifications would need to be made to the Arnines to do this?
I don't think the R-1 and the M-1 are coupled either. By the way, does anyone have the story behind this picture? I assume the station is Jamaica but I'm not positive.
This isn't jamaica. My idea is that this was during the delivery of either the M-1 or r-44. I remeber the r-44 going through non electric fright lines. Being pulled by diesel. They were still in shrink wrap. Picutres are on this site.
The R44 were tested for max speed on the LIRR. The R9 has a MCB coupler on the end where the M1 was. The picture was taken in Jamaica.
I froze my butt at Forest Hills just to record the event.
Now that you mention it, that's right. There were some "M" car numbered Arnines with MCB's (they should have had MCB stenciled on the end where the coupler was) ... there was also an Arnine at Coney that had a Van DORN on it, though usually the honor of hauling anything with VD couplers went to some LoV's that remained. But absent an MCB equipped car, there were adaptors available as well ...
Not that I want to start a discussion on location, are you sure that isn't Jamaica? Behind the last car way back there is a bldg there that looks like it says Chelsea. Isn't there a bldg like that there. Also the track starts to curve in the rear just where the track curves W/O Jamaica Station. That sure does look like the platform with track 8, just minus the fancy destination signs hanging up that were put up years later.
It IS Jamaica. I found the picture on Dave's site at http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r44 and the caption says Jamaica.
We have a winner! Give the man a kewpie doll. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
An ADAPTOR was used between the Arnine and the M-1's ... they were used as a "protection car" when NYC cars were lashed up to LIRR gear and Arnines were sometimes used as "rescue units" for LIRR equipment in snowstorms when the M1's (I was always under the impression that they were called A1A's) would suck up snow and die on the railroad. The practice of using the Arnines only lasted as long as they remained on the LIRR, which wasn't long. I think it was during the period where they were testing NYCT cars out there. But yes, with an adaptor they hooked right up iron to iron.
This wouldn't be a revision to the quadratic equation, now, would it?
If I solve for R, I get 2 and M = 2.99. Is that correct? :)
Anyway, it didn't take long for those vultures to start attacking that first R-1/9!!
--Mark
Here are a few Trivia teasers for you guys to try out
1) What year did NJ Transit eliminate service to Atlantic City?
2) Name all bridges on the North Jersey Coast Line in order from Bay Head to Avenel.
3) Name all three "Phase-Gaps" on the Morristown Line between Hoboken and Dover.
4) Where was NJ Transit's first major Locomotive Shop located?
* Not MMC!
5) What was the original first stop on the Montclair Branch?
6) Which two interlockings are still man'd on the Hoboken Division?
7) What is the difference in mileage on the Port Jervis Line between the original Erie Route and the Graham Line between CP Newburg and CP Howells?
8) Name the two movable bridges on the Atlantic City Line.
9) Which local freight is often found on the M & E Division?
10) How come Arrow III MU's are not used in MidTown Direct Service?
1) What year did NJ Transit eliminate service to Atlantic City?
1983
4) Where was NJ Transit's first major Locomotive Shop located?
Elizabethport
6) Which two interlockings are still man'd on the Hoboken Division?
There should be only 1, Terminal Tower. The only other canidate is West End, but according to every tower site I know, TT is the only active NJT tower.
8) Name the two movable bridges on the Atlantic City Line.
Delair and Atlantic
10) How come Arrow III MU's are not used in MidTown Direct Service?
The transformer's can't change voltages.
9) Which local freight is often found on the M & E Division?
Conrail local, DJ-61, now known as Norfolk Southern DJ-02
Two of my sources state that Lindenwold to Atlantic City service ended June 30, 1982. What I haven't found (with a cursory look) is whether it was NJT or still NJDOT.
Oops, got the year one off.
AFAIK they were never run under NJT. They were the Conrail Seashore Trains up until the end.
1) Uhh, they still run that service, Amtrak eliminated it in 1989 I think. I sure hope NJT didn't eliminate the AC line, cause I've been riding it recently to and from school, seems to still be there to me.
2) Brielle D; Shark Inlet D; Oceanport D; Navesink River Bridge; River D, over the Raritan; Does the NJCL cross the Earle Naval Railroad at a diamond or an overpass?
5) Ampere, although wouldn't Newark Broad be first? it's just not out on the line.
8) The Delair Lift Bridge over the Delaware, and the Beach Thorofare Swing Bridge.
9) Cause the passengers would get damn impatient while the mechanics came out to the Arrow trainset and switched the Transformer Taps while they sat just before the gap before the 25kv-11.5kv change. ALPs do it automatically, Arrows can't, although that might change if they ever get rebuilt.
The NJCL crosses the Earle line on an overpass, IIRC... in any event it's not a diamond!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok, so add that one, and would woodbridge Jct be on there? It's not an overpass, it's an underpass, but it's still a bridge on the NJCL. Also I know theres some highway over- and underpasses I left off.
I suppose it would suck if an Arrow plowwed into the side of a Navy boxcar full of weapons bound for the AOEs at the end of the Earle dock.
The westbound NJCL drops down under the NEC where it splits off, if that's what you mean by Woodbridge Junction (I'm not sure of the proper name for it). The eastbound track rises from the NJCL and merges into the local track on the NEC but does not cross any tracks to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you have a phase break at mid-town direct leads to nec(also a voltage change). i think there are breaks at south orange and denville.
The proper name is Union Interlocking in Rahway.
Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Answers are:
1) 1982 under NJDOT/NJT due to low ridership.
2) Brielle, Shark River, Oceanport, Navesink Trestle, Morgan, and Raritan Bay.*
3) Staffords Phase Gap(MMC), Maplewood Phase Gap, Morristown Phase Gap
4) Elizabethport shops in Elizabeth
5) Ampere Station. Newark-Broad St is Morristown Line, not Montclair.
6) Terminal Interlocking and HX Interlocking.
7) 7 miles
8) Delair and Beach Thorofare
9) Morristown & Erie( I should have been more specific with question)#.
10) Unable to change automaticaly from NEC 11kv to M&E 25kv.
*Bridges over major rivers and bays
#Freight rail company to be more specific. Conrail is interstate freight, Morristown & Erie remains fairly local.
Are you sure that HX counts as an active tower? Does it retain local control of switches and signals, not just open the bridge? I would love to get confirmation because I have never seen HX on and of the active lists.
I was right, HX closed on January 23rd, 1993. You can see the info at http://zippy.cso.uiuc.edu/~roma/towers/towers-1995-closed-data.html
They do this in Washington and as I understand in many other cities. I believe it is to check the distance and remove from the card accordingly. Why hasn't NYC implemented this system? My guess is that it would not go well with paying by tokens, which I don't believ is done on WMATA.
There is no need to. The New York subway has a fixed fare, regardless of the distance traveled.
Perhaps in the future they should do it. Then we can have Peak and off peak fares and it wont be the same fare if you traveled from Rockaway Park to 241 St. However this may be a cost saving way for the LIRR. They wont need as many conductors on the train however it never would happened the unions would protest.
Sssssh! Don't give the MTA any ideas!
Well, I think the fixed fare is fair because most people who ride the subway use it for travel necessities anyway. You pay what you travel for. But of course you can ride the subway all day and still pay $1.50, (riding the subway all day seems like a waste of time and I don't feel at my upmost feelings if I do) I have ridden the subway for 4 hours without exiting the system but I felt if a normal person did it, it would be pointless and just get off to where s/he needs to go.
Well, I think the fixed fare is fair because most people who ride the subway use it for travel necessities anyway.
Please defend your statement.
AEM7
Meaning, if you consider normal everyday people, they would much rather be doing something else during the day than ride the subway back and forth. For the rest, read the rest of the paragraph.
Since PATCO openned in the late 60's, most new transit system based their fare on distance traveled. If this happened in NYC, how will you control the flow of passengers thru the fare gates, where will you put the add fare machines, and how will you educate the passengers.
Since PATCO openned in the late 60's, most new transit system based their fare on distance traveled. If this happened in NYC, how will you control the flow of passengers thru the fare gates, where will you put the add fare machines, and how will you educate the passengers.
Distance-based fares also would go against New York's one-city-one-fare policy. That issue doesn't arise with many other systems, such as the DC Metro, MARTA and PATCO, because they cross city (and sometimes state) lines.
a few NYC buses do cross city lines Q5, Q85, Bx16, etc
The same way you educate bovines...with a cattle prod!!
Maybe because NY has a greater tourist population than
DC or MD or elsewhere? It'd discourage tourism in this
great city if we were to deduct a fee based on distance
traveled... and we all know what tourism means to NY.....
>>> It'd discourage tourism in this great city if we were to deduct a fee based on distance traveled. <<<
Ahah! That's why you never see any tourists in London or Paris! :-)
Tom
There are still a number of stations in London (Goldhawk Road immediately springs to mind) and an even larger number in Paris where you don't need your ticket to exit.
Personally I think the NYC fare structure is better - it penalises those who need transit least - those who are too lazy to walk a few blocks and take up precious space in rush hour. It also avoids the "How much to ____ Street" discussion every time someone boards a bus, something which is immensely timewasting and annoying.
Actually, a distance-based system would yield lower fares for short distances. Most tourists generally ride fairly short distances, so they'd come out ahead.
Actually, a distance-based system would yield lower fares for short distances. Most tourists generally ride fairly short distances, so they'd come out ahead.
Tourists don't get a vote, so lets try and make as much money from them as possible!
London would do well to follow NYC's example and do the one city one fare thing and have the following sort of structure (unweighted averages of 2003 fares rounded):
£2.70 single fare - tourists currently pay £1.60
£8.95 one day travelcard (peak) - tourists currently pay £5.10
£5.00 one day travelcard (off-peak) - tourists currently pay £4.10
Anyone in Zones 4-D would be very happy!
Tourists don't get a vote, so lets try and make as much money from them as possible!
True, but if fare are high enough some tourists will opt for taxis.
True, but if fare are high enough some tourists will opt for taxis.
Then you'd need a taxi tax - yay, more revenue $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
True, but if fare are high enough some tourists will opt for taxis.
They will likely do this anyway... certainly a family traveling together will pay less in a cab than on a subway... and since they *are* tourists, and do not know their way around, the taxi is certainly easier.
Just so long as the driver doesn't go from the planaterium to the Guggenhiem via South Ferry!
Elias
True, but if fare are high enough some tourists will opt for taxis.
Many tourists do use taxis. Many are "scared" of the subway. (I don't mean crime-wise, I mean they may be confused on what line goes where). NY does have a very intimidating system if you are not familiar with it. Most cities (obviously not all) have systems that only go from point A to point B, with everything in between. In New York you can go from point a to point B, C, D, or even E, right from one track/platform.
Tourists can go elsewhere if travel gets too expensive for them in New York.
A flat fare is effectively a subsidy from those who happen to travel short distances off-peak to those who happen to travel long distances at rush hour. I have yet to hear a cogent argument in favor of such a subsidy. Do you have one to offer?
There are two reasons the subway flat fare is likely to remain for the foreseeable future: (1) few people seem to realize that the basic laws of economics apply to transportation resources, and (2) the turnstiles are already overcrowded at many stations without exit swipes, and there's no room for more turnstiles without major (expensive) construction.
A flat fare is effectively a subsidy from those who happen to travel short distances off-peak to those who happen to travel long distances at rush hour.
Not true. Cost allocation occurs at the most scarce resource, and those could be diffcult to determine at one given moment. For instance, if a seat is likely to travel empty because some short-distance person used it to get to 125th when it could have been used by someone going to Queens, then flat fare is fair ASSUMING that the seat is the constraining factor on that system. If there are more seats than demand available, then flat fare makes no sense. In considering cost allocation, we have to consider: train capacity, seat capacity, time variation of demand, geographical variation of demand, etc...
I've yet to seen a proper analytical model that prices subway rides (or any transportation rides) properly. The airlines do pretty well, with their revenue management system, but that system would be waaaay to complex to explain to commuters, especially when commuters often want a single-fare contract (i.e. a monthly pass).
(1) few people seem to realize that the basic laws of economics apply to transportation resources,
They do apply, but the problem is that it is almost impossible to apply them correctly. If the fare is changed to reflect the crowding levels, then suddenly the constraint on the system shift from crowding at peak to say the crowding at the Triborough bridge or something, and then suddenly you have the problem of how to price the city streets. Then if you change the fare to reflect the externalities and compensate those who choose to use the subway, then you have the problem of one off-peak ride costing $7 or something because the system is not constrained and therefore the subway can charge whatever they can get away with, but what effect would that have on monthly pass sales? It's a question far too complex even for me. The flat fare system is pretty good, in my opinion, not because it is economically correct and optimal allocation of resources, but because it is simple.
AEM7
Not true. Cost allocation occurs at the most scarce resource, and those could be diffcult to determine at one given moment. For instance, if a seat is likely to travel empty because some short-distance person used it to get to 125th when it could have been used by someone going to Queens, then flat fare is fair ASSUMING that the seat is the constraining factor on that system. If there are more seats than demand available, then flat fare makes no sense. In considering cost allocation, we have to consider: train capacity, seat capacity, time variation of demand, geographical variation of demand, etc...
If many people are taking short trips (which a distance-based fare would encourage) over the entire line, then that seat that I vacate is instantly filled by a new farepaying customer. If short trips are only commonplace on the inner portion of the line, then NYCT can short-turn some trains and still provide enough service to the end of the line.
I've yet to seen a proper analytical model that prices subway rides (or any transportation rides) properly. The airlines do pretty well, with their revenue management system, but that system would be waaaay to complex to explain to commuters, especially when commuters often want a single-fare contract (i.e. a monthly pass).
I'm afraid I don't have the training necessary to provide you with a plausible analytical model. I hope that some people who do have the training are at least trying to find the proper model.
Have any transit agencies hired former airline employees to work something out? As you point out, the constraints are very different, but the related experience might be helpful nonetheless.
They do apply, but the problem is that it is almost impossible to apply them correctly. If the fare is changed to reflect the crowding levels, then suddenly the constraint on the system shift from crowding at peak to say the crowding at the Triborough bridge or something, and then suddenly you have the problem of how to price the city streets. Then if you change the fare to reflect the externalities and compensate those who choose to use the subway, then you have the problem of one off-peak ride costing $7 or something because the system is not constrained and therefore the subway can charge whatever they can get away with, but what effect would that have on monthly pass sales? It's a question far too complex even for me. The flat fare system is pretty good, in my opinion, not because it is economically correct and optimal allocation of resources, but because it is simple.
Again, I can't give you exact numbers. Of course, everything fails if some parts of the transportation system try to be economically sensible while others don't. Canal Street eastbound suffers quite visibly from the toll differential between the $6/7 Verrazano Narrows Bridge and the $0 Manhattan Bridge, and I would argue that the absence of user fees on most of our roads cuts severely into transit usage and often leads to inefficient spending decisions.
Simplicity is a virtue, of course. I'm just afraid that our transportation problems have become serious enough that we can't afford simplicity anymore. Perhaps I'm paranoid.
Have any transit agencies hired former airline employees to work something out?
There are plenty of them available!
I'm afraid I don't have the training necessary to provide you with a plausible analytical model. I hope that some people who do have the training are at least trying to find the proper model. Have any transit agencies hired former airline employees to work something out?
This is the way I see the situation:
(1) When pricing transportation, you have to firstly decide a few things: do you price the demand to fit the infrastructure, or do you build the infrastructure to fit the demand? Infrastructure is constrained by the amount of capital $ available, while the demand is constrained by how many people are living in the areas where you already have infrastructure. Immediately, there is a circuity in the system: if you build more infrastructure, you will get more people living in an area, then you will end up needing more infrastructure.
(2) Secondly, you can only build infrastructure in lumps (e.g. units of one subway car, or one subway line), and you have still got to manage the demand in the meantime, while you are spending capital dollars making extra capacity.
(3) Thirdly, if you started pricing things rationally, some politican will always jump out and yell that it's unfair because a certain group of people is paying more than they can afford, or they cannot afford a certain ride that they "need". Yelling this kind of stuff is bound to make you popular, so rules change every 5 years or so. The economist thinks that if you can't pay for it, you don't need it -- but social scientists think otherwise.
Conclusion: you really don't need such a model, because if you tried to build one it would not only be extraordinarily complex, it would also piss a lot of people off, and it wouldn't fly anyway because some politican will come along and tell you that you can't run a transit system like that.
By the way -- the cost allocation models I am talking about, and revenue prediction models -- they do have them, for instance, British Rail had ORCATS and APTIS models to work out revenue projections and revenue distributions. NYCTA probably has its own internal revenue and cost models. They don't apply these to pricing, because that would guarentee their being minced politically. These models (at least the BR ones) are not very sophisticated, and there are definitely ways to game them (was part of my old job to run empty trains to take a bigger slice of revenue from the pool)... the ones I have seen (for instance the models at TTC) are even less sophisticated, and makes no attempt to find the constraints in the system.
The other inherent difficulty in these models is that you can never accurate model passenger behaviour.
Flat fare is nice because, guess what, if you drive on the road, that is effectively a flat fare. The flat fare is the loan on your car -- no matter how many miles you drive, or how many trips you take at what time, the price is the same. That's why a flat fare on the transit systems (esp. with the monthly passes) is a reasonable economic compromise given that the highways are not priced rationally.
AEM7
(1) When pricing transportation, you have to firstly decide a few things: do you price the demand to fit the infrastructure, or do you build the infrastructure to fit the demand? Infrastructure is constrained by the amount of capital $ available, while the demand is constrained by how many people are living in the areas where you already have infrastructure. Immediately, there is a circuity in the system: if you build more infrastructure, you will get more people living in an area, then you will end up needing more infrastructure.
How does Wal-Mart decide when to build a new store? The question of when to build new transportation infrastructure is related, though far from identical.
(2) Secondly, you can only build infrastructure in lumps (e.g. units of one subway car, or one subway line), and you have still got to manage the demand in the meantime, while you are spending capital dollars making extra capacity.
I don't understand the problem. Presumably, the idea behind building new infrastructure is that the user fees will pay for it over a (predetermined?) number of years.
(3) Thirdly, if you started pricing things rationally, some politican will always jump out and yell that it's unfair because a certain group of people is paying more than they can afford, or they cannot afford a certain ride that they "need". Yelling this kind of stuff is bound to make you popular, so rules change every 5 years or so. The economist thinks that if you can't pay for it, you don't need it -- but social scientists think otherwise.
Unfortunately, politics often gets in the way of what makes sense. A shift to a distance-based fare system is not a fare increase (although its implementation might be concurrent with a fare increase) -- some people end up paying more for their rides but others end up paying less.
Food is a far more basic need than transportation, but I don't see any attempt to ensure that a box of Cheerios costs the same around the city. What I do see is an income-based food subsidy to those who might otherwise not be able to afford food. I wouldn't object to an income-based transportation subsidy, although I'd prefer that the subsidy be available not only for transportation use (so that someone who saves money on transportation can use that money towards food or housing, which may be more expensive than average).
Occasionally we find a politician who understands economics. Michael Bloomberg appears to be such a politician -- he has been investigating the possibility of tolling the toll-free East River bridges and has cut off funding for the remarkably heavily subsidized weekend DOT express bus services. Needless to say, his ratings have dropped substantially.
Conclusion: you really don't need such a model, because if you tried to build one it would not only be extraordinarily complex, it would also piss a lot of people off, and it wouldn't fly anyway because some politican will come along and tell you that you can't run a transit system like that.
I don't think we can afford not to move toward such a model over time, despite the inevitable challenges.
The other inherent difficulty in these models is that you can never accurate model passenger behaviour.
So work with approximations.
Flat fare is nice because, guess what, if you drive on the road, that is effectively a flat fare. The flat fare is the loan on your car -- no matter how many miles you drive, or how many trips you take at what time, the price is the same. That's why a flat fare on the transit systems (esp. with the monthly passes) is a reasonable economic compromise given that the highways are not priced rationally.
So price the highways rationally! We have E-ZPass now. All that stands in the way is politics. And do away with zoning laws that assume (and ensure) that everyone will drive everywhere.
"All that stands in the way is politics."
And that is a huge obstacle.
Here's a roughly cost-based pricing algorithm for the NYC subways that would never fly politically.
- Charge x cents per mile to cover operational costs.
- Charge y dollars for anyone who crosses the East River or 60th St. during rush hour in the rush hour direction, to cover the huge capital costs incurred to create the infrastructure and rolling stock needed to handle this peak load.
I personally would love this pricing. Since I live between downtown and midtown, I am almost never using the subway in the rush hour direction. Adding me onto a rush hour train never fills it to the crushing point since many commuters have already gotten off at a previous stop. So I shouldn't have to pay much, should I?
And that is a huge obstacle.
I don't deny it.
How does Wal-Mart decide when to build a new store? The question of when to build new transportation infrastructure...
A few reasons why these are fundamentally different questions: (1) Wal-mart stores costs less than $50 million a piece, whereas any meaningful infrastructure costs $500 million or more. Secondly, there really is no need to manage demand at Wal-mart; if demand is too great for a certain good, they will stockout and no one buys anymore (or they wait for it to be restocked). Transportation infrastructure cannot "stock" -- it is being produced for the user as it is consumed. Like electricity, there are unique problems associated with such a specific just-in-time production requirement. Why do you think Sam Walton hadn't gotten into the business of building electricity generators?
I don't understand the problem. Presumably, the idea behind building new infrastructure is that the user fees...
It's more difficult than you think, if you want to do it right. Let's take a toll road: you can only build the road all-at-once, and not incrementally. So in the first five years, the road would be empty, and you would price really low to ensure the capacity is used. As soon as it becomes congested, you will have to raise the prices to choke off the demand. The problem: This will never fly, politically. It would not be economically correct to charge either a distance-based fare or a time-based fare for the road. You'd have to find out where the road is operating in excess of capacity, charge a flat fare for that portion, and charge a mainteannce-related distance-based fare for the rest of it.
Try explaining this to people who use the Mass Pike: your drive will cost $30 flat-fare between Newton and Boston, and $2 per mile between Newton and Wellesley, and will be free between Wellesley and the New York State Line. Oh by the way, and the fares will change depending on how much traffic is out there and what time of the day it is.
I don't think we can afford not to move toward such a model over time, despite the inevitable challenges.
I don't know. I was all very in-favour of congestion pricing, because I was brought up that way (British Rail has congestion pricing). Then I kind of slowly began to realize that in a U.S. setting there are good reason why even approximations of congestion pricing might not work. We should not pretend that congestion pricing is rational -- it's not; it's an approximation of rationality closer than a flat-fare. I would argue that pricing the highway is the first goal, before transit becomes congestion-priced. And the highway pricing doesn't apply to just bridges; it applies to every inch of road. We now have GPS technologies that will track vehicle movements over space and we could theoretically price vehicle movements based on location, time, and type of facility. We can also toll for parking, or give refunds for environmentally-friendly moves (e.g. refund the user if they use Park & Rides). As you will probably see, such "big brother" approach would mean the privacy/paranoid activists will have a field day. Little do they realize we already track their movements with their credit cards, Metrocards, employer ID's and other such unique identifiers.
AEM7
on some buses the off peak fare is 1.00 (change only) maybe the MTA can do that for a while with buses(not trains) to encourage more off peak ridership(weekends only), of course Metrocard users would still pay 1.50 or 1.36, change users would pay 1.00
[On some buses the off peak fare is 1.00 (change only) maybe the MTA can do that for a while with buses(not trains) to encourage more off peak ridership(weekends only), of course Metrocard users would still pay 1.50 or 1.36, change users would pay 1.00.]
That's on NYCDOT's local routes, and it was Rudy's gift to Queens, out of gratitude for some politician's support on some issue. Since the fares go to DOT anyway, all taxpayers eat the difference.
I see no reason why the MetroCard can't be programed to handle time-of-day or day-of-week fares. It's shouldn't be too hard to insert a couple of lines of code (e.g. "IF TIME>0930 AND TIME<1500 THEN FARE = $1.00" or "IF DAY = SATURDAY THEN FARE = $1.00") into the program.
That is also in Brooklyn, Manhattan and The Bronx as well with some buses like Queens Surface
Sort of. The NYCDOT has only one local route in Brooklyn (B100) and one in the Bronx (QBx1, which returns to Queens as an afterthought).
Note that the B103 and Q53 are considered one-zone express routes, and thus do not qualify for the discounted fare.
"There are two reasons the subway flat fare is likely to remain for the foreseeable future"
(3) Even if you can figure out cost-based pricing (price highest for the people consuming the most constrained resource), it would be so complicated that the customer base wouldn't understand it, and therefore wouldn't modify their behavior to make more efficient use of resources.
The phone companies used to be very big on regulatory pushes toward cost-based pricing, but they have to a large degree given up on the push because the complexity just isn't worth it. You see a lot more flat fee nearly-unlimited calling plans, whereas in 1980 AT&T and the local companies were trying like crazy to get rid of them.
You see a lot more flat fee nearly-unlimited calling plans
Wish we had those over here. I get free phone calls to every other number in the University (except annoyingly the Library and the Health Centre), but everything else is charged at criminal rates per second.
Many reasons:
Historical - NY has always had a flat fare system, not distance based (there have been some exceptions, such as the double fare to Rockaway).
Current - The Metrocard introduction in 1997 only solidified the flat fare with the "one city/one fare" policy - one $1.50 Metrocard ride gives the rider an uninterrupted trip even if modes are changed. A short L-shaped Manhattan trip involing bus and subway; a longer trip to say Main Street Flushing followed by a bus to Bayside; or a long trip from Midtown to Staten Island via subway, ferry, and then a bus or SI Railway all cost one fare.
Exit checking would require installation of thousands of exit turnstiles, vending machines, and barriers; as well as personnel to support them. Plus, imagine the crowding to leave a crowded Manhattan station in the morning going to work.
The NY system is good - leave it alone. One of my complaints about the DC system is that bus and metro fares are not integrated for
one-way trips or one-day tourist riders - separate fares are required.
They do this in Washington and as I understand in many other cities. I believe it is to check the distance and remove from the card accordingly
What happens if someone loses the card while riding - how do they get out?
What happens if someone loses the card while riding - how do they get out?
Short answer - You don't. Otherwise it is presumed you never had a ticket to begin with, you criminal.
Most of the time on patco, you just walk up to the phone and say, "I lost my ticket, I got on at [Whereever] and need to get out." The station person will buzz you out through one of the gates, and you get to leave. Unless they have you as having hopped one of the gates at another station, and that's why you don't have a ticket. Undoubtedly more than a few people have gotten rides from Lindenwold to the city and back with Philly-Camden, or Intra-NJ tickets.
Two weeks ago my courses were intermitant with finals and all, so I was just buying 2 rides as I needed them at the station. However, one night on my way home, I stuck my ticket in, it got eaten (recycled for later use, another plus over leaving them with commuters to throw away), when a lady pushed me aside and walked through the faregate on my fare. There was nothing I could do, even if a DRPA cop had been right on the other side of the gate, watching it all take place, she could claim it was an accident. I got stuck in the fare control area, and had to call to get out, worse, there was a line of people who'd dropped their ticket or something, and I wound up at the back.
The automatic fare thing has always made me a bit uncomfortable, cause they know when and where you are going, especially if they have sent you some 10 rides in the mail (no month or day passes, just 1,2 and 10 rides), then they have your name address and all along with what stations you come from and go to. I know I'm being a bit paranoid, and patco probably could care less where I'm going, so long as I paid my fare, but still, with the police state that now exsists, it could be something to worry about.
especially if they have sent you some 10 rides in the mail (no month or day passes, just 1,2 and 10 rides), then they have your name address and all along with what stations you come from and go to. I know I'm being a bit paranoid...
Yes you are. With PATCO's system, do you realize how much processing they need to go through to enter that information? You know, with a system like CTA's (which I have experience working with), which has fairly good "Metrocard serial" information, we have problem tracking individual cards, let alone individual people. We know roughly where they are going, because the same card is swiped again when the rider re-enter the system for a round-trip ride. Usually, we can work out where they are if they used only rail services, but as soon as you integrate the bus data (which has never been tried, by the way), the IT on that becomes impossible (or very difficult -- beyond what I thought was feasible). If you think the PATCO ticket selling people can get their act together and get the fare gate people to share the data... you're dreaming :-p
AEM7
However, one night on my way home, I stuck my ticket in, it got eaten (recycled for later use, another plus over leaving them with commuters to throw away), when a lady pushed me aside and walked through the faregate on my fare. There was nothing I could do
Yes there was... you could have beaten the daylights out of her. I know I would...
["What happens if someone loses the card while riding - how do they get out?"]
Two options:Pay the maximum fare like they do on the NYS Thruway if you lose their ticket Change your name to "Charlie", stay on the train, and have the Kingston Trio sing a song about you.
You forgot THREE! Break into the cab and be escorted out. At least it gets you out of THAT system and into another one. :)
Not to mention the free token the legal aide attorney gives you when you are released from the court on Centre Street!
Or hope that the station manager is sympathetic (usually the case in DC)
I haven't read all the responses so the answer might already be out there. The reason you use your farecard on the Washington subway system has NOTHING to do with distance. It has to do with the subisdy formula. Costs are allocated by the number of miles operated in each jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction has a different formula for determining the subidy. In Virginia, passengers pay 2/3 of the cost and the state, county, etc pays 1/3 of the cost. In Maryland and the District, the state pays 1/2 of the cost and passengers pay 1/2 of the cost. Consequently, it costs passengers more to travel one mile in Virginia than in Maryland and the District because the subsidy rate is less in Virginia than the other jurisdictions.
Michael
Washington, DC
Coming to New York for New Year's eve to dance tango!
Every now and then discussion comes up about a so-called "orange" or "light brown" N and R on the signs. People speculated that these were provisions for the lines running on 6th Av, that were'nt on any other sign. One person recently suggested the N was a holdover from the 1967 colors (where it had the white letter). Years agao, you could also see a "B" on the slant 40's that was the same color as the N, but also with the white letter.
I saw the orange R this week, and got the car number-6964. Since I was working a V putin job all this week, I began keeping my eye out for the car, epecially in the yard. Yesterday, I find out that iw as my last car on my last trip in on the V. But there was no way to check it out. So now that it was on the V, this morning I'm hoping it might be my putin. I cross the yard looking for it, and what I had was a G and V set put together. But upon arriving at the front, there it is three tracks away! So I had given myself extra time, and could freely explore the sign.
As I had suggested in the earlier discussions, that was simply an attempt to create a yellow that could be used with a white letter. It was all the Broadway lines that were done the same way, including B, D, Q, S and even ‹W›with a deeper orange for the 6th Av. lines.
RSNWBDQDQB...SV
as compared with
RSNWBDQDQB...SV
The "yellow" in the first case can definitely pass for orange, and sure enough, in sogns that had that color, it was used for orange on the B and Q back when they ran R-40's (saved a few placed in sign changing). Once again, the last MVM station list poster also used those colors.
My suggestion for darkening the yellow without compromising the hue (i.e making it orange) is:
May look slightly greenish, but is not as close to ["G" green] as the other yellow is to orange!
The brown ‹R›, of course, was actually brown, and was a provision for the Nassau-4th Av. service. R40-46's use the same sign boxes, and signs, inclusing Nassau/Eastern Div. lines.
I saw an R train with the brown sign yesterday just as the V train I was in arrived at Woodhaven Blvd toward Forest Hills so I couldn't see what the car number was.
I also forgot to add that these signs (which were already few) are disappearing, as the new signs with the circle W and circle and diamond Q are being put in the 40-46 class. Fellow workers, better grab them when they are being replaced. One way to tell it is that kind is that the little display on the top edge of the sign that appears on the inside to tell what is displayed outside, is in black & white.
There are a few older signs left on the slants, and perhaps if one of that kind is left, we may be able to catch an "orange" diamind W. (Imagine people's response to seeing that: "Oh, are they going to put the W on 6th Avenue too?")
I guess that accounts for some of the "F" bullets that are in a very dark orange while others have it in a lighter shade.
December 8 was the day for the "Redbirds to the Rockaways" fantrip which many of us took. Someone said that a rollsign from an R-11 was put in one end of the train on the end route roller. There certainly is a picture of an R-33 displaying a #13 route sign.
I find it odd that the R-11's carried a reading for this service. They did indeed carry number routing for all the route over which they could have been operated in 1949. (1,2,3,4,5,7,10,14,15 and 16)
By 1949 the #6 was long gone and the #8 was going to be absorbed into the #1. #9 was goiing to the IRT and the R-11's never could have run on the #11 south of Broadway or the #12.
What remained of the Fulton Street El in 1949 was the line between Rockaway Avenue and Lefferts Avenue. The Fulton Street El from Atlantic Avenue west had been third tracked during the Dual Contracts and the line from Grant Avenue west was built new at the same time. The portion between Atlantic Avenue and Grant Avenue had never been rebuilt and remained a two track structure. The only metal cars that could run over this portion of the line in 1949 were the Multis, Bluebirds and Zephyr. The Multis did run over this line in the rush hour only #13 14 St-Fulton St Express service.
Now the Multis weighed about 180,000 lbs and usually ran in three car sets making a total weight of 540,000 lbs.
An R-11 weighed about 81,000 lbs and assuming that they ran in an eight car trains the total weight of 648,000. I don't know if the el structure could have supported that weight or not.
Any thought or comments??
Larry, RedbirdR33
I also seem to recall that "13" was on the R-11 signs, though that may be "recovered memory," if you know what I mean.
As far as your figures go, Larry, you're about right on the weights, except that the equivalence would be a NINE-car R-11 train to a three-unit Multi train, which are almost the same length amd would have the same number of axles.
The unladen axle loading on the R-11 train would have been about 35% higher than on the Multis (20,365 vs. 15,100), which is pretty significant. The weight was also better distributed on the multis because of the articulation.
The R-11s were only lightweight in comparison to the Standards and Triplexes. They were slightly heavier than the R-27s, and no one ever called those lightweights. The R-32s as delivered were about 70,000 lbs., lighter than an IRT redbird, but still only midway between the R-11 and a Multi. By the time the R-32s were delivered, the "13" was history.
So I don't know what was going on with the "13" designation. By the time the R-11s came in the planning was to attach the A Line to the Fulton el, so there is no question of reinforcing the BMT Fulton Line like the Alabama-Cypress Hills section of the J.
The only thing I can think of is that "13" was the intended route designation for the Fulton service to 76th Street. Seems appropriate, no? ;-)
76 Street was to have been served by the Fulton St Subway. Not the Fulton St El.
It's a joke.
Paul: So our old friend 76 Street rears his head again. I was thinking that only an eight car train of 60 footers could fit on the 14 Street Line. Your analysis bears out my contention. In 1949 there were only three services that could properly carry the #13 sign.
1)Fulton Street Local (Lefferts Ave-Rocakaway Av)
2)14 St-Fulton Exp (Lefferts Ave-8 Avenue)
3 Fulton-Lexington Lcl (Lefferts Av-Sands St or Jay St)
Perhaps you're right and that the thought was to thru-route the Liberty Avenue portion of the Fulton St El into the IND Eighth Avenue Subway as was done but to retain the BMT #13 instead of using the IND A.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
You want to look at truck loads rather than gross weight. The multi's had 6 trucks per car for a total of 18 truck for a 3 car set. This works out to 30,000 lbs/truck. The R11's have 2 trucks per car for a total of 16 for the 8-car train, weighing 648,000 lbs. This works out to 40,500 lbs/truck. That's 33% more than the multi's rather than the 20% figure for gross weight.
Isn't it disappointing that they did not have the 12 on those signs?
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that being 10' wide, the R-11 could never fit on the #11 (Myrtle) or #12 (Lexington) lines west of Broadway.
Anybody know if the R-16s had #13 on their route sings (as delivered, before they got new signs with letters rather than numbers)?
-- Ed Sachs
Nope. The #13 was already scheduled to be toast less than a year after the first R16 was introduced. They only carried the #10, #14, #15 & #16 signage.
The Fulton St. El would have been able to support the weight of the R-11s since it was upgraded so that the BMT 67' "Standards" could run on it. The "Standards" weighed about 95,000lbs. each.
#3 West End Jeff
The Fulton St el that ran from Atlantic Ave to Grant Ave was never upgraded.
Would it have been able to withstand the weight of the R-11s?
#3 West End Jeff
It was a old lattice work el, almost a duplicate of the Lexington Ave el.
It apparently held the weight of the Multi's though.
The MS weren't that heavy, comparatively speaking, were they?
wayne
As has been explained, it's not so much gross weight that determines whether or not a car could travel on the old els but axle weight.
The MS was a 5-car set, like Bluebird. I think you are confusing the MS with the "D" types. I can just picture "D" types on the eastern leg of the Fulton Street El - CRUNCH!!!
wayne
Bluebirds were a THREE-car set, 80 feet long in all--if it were five cars, it would have looked like a caterpillar :).
MS were five cars, like the Hornet and Zephyr.
More like,
TIMMMMM-BERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
1988...All aboard a Pan Am 747 jet bound for New York are killed when a terrorist bomb blows up the plane over Lockerbie, Scotland.
1994...A firebomb explodes on a southbound 4 train at the Fulton Street station in lower Manhattan. More than 40 passengers are hurt, some of them critically burned. Edward Leary, an unemployed computer technician from New Jersey, is quickly arrested and later convicted. He's now serving a nearly 100-year sentence in prison.
Ironically a few days ago I saw a bumb attempt to burn down car 1391(the same car that had the firebomb explosion) with a unlit cigarette.
He obviously failed.
Does anybody know the story behind this picture?
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142-6306-bc.jpg
-AcelaExpress2005
Going into or coming out of the test track.
Speaking of tests, I saw a 142 set getting the burn-test last night...seats were still wrapped in plastic...the set had 7100 in the C/R position (lead 5-car set), and was marked for the (5). Came through Franklin Avenue around 9:20 p.m.
The IND Franklin Ave.?
-AcelaExpress2005
I think he meant Franklin Avenue in the IRT. If it was an R142, it was either going to Livonia Yard or one of the yards in the Bronx.
No, It was a "burn test". The train was directly behind my train going back uptown after 149-GC. In fact it was waiting outside of Flatbush as we were pulling out.
Good catch!
Does anyone know if SEPTA is running a holiday trolley this season, as in past years? Last year it looped through West Philly on subway surface routes; im another year it looped through Center City on some of Route 23's old trackage.
SEPTA is not running holiday trolleys this year. The enabling corporate sponsorship was not forthcoming.
SEPTA PCC #2168 at the Island Ave loop and SEPTA PCC #2799 in West Philly on Dec 20, 2001.
This time while doing my christmas shopping, I was at 14th street on the northbound plat when an N pulled in on the southbound express track. I ran like the speed of light to that other side, and got on that train! It continued to run express as I made my way to the front car (this time it was a slant), and pulled in to the Canal St bridge platform. At Canal St, the C/R announces "this train will be going over the bridge, the next stop is dekalb", then the T/O says, "negative conductor, this train's going to pacific street". You should have seen the smile on my face when he said that! The only bad part was that someone had beaten me to the railfan window, I could still see, just not as much, but it was still a great ride!
The N that was going over the bridge was an R32? Then you really got treated like royalty!
I was just thinking about those days when the B, D, N, and Q ran over the bridge together; B and D on the north side and N and Q on the south side. When they got into Brooklyn, the B and the N would hook up, skip DeKalb Avenue, go into Pacific Street and then start that fast express run down 4th Avenue to 36th Street. What a majestic run the N had back then! The original Broadway Express!
Now look at it: running local in all the boroughs and becoming a shuttle nights and weekends. A mere shell of what it once was.
So I hope you enjoyed that nostalgic run over the bridge because it's becoming increasingly rare. Soon, it might not be possible at all.
(I was just thinking about those days when the B, D, N, and Q ran over the bridge together; B and D on the north side and N and Q on the south side. When they got into Brooklyn, the B and the N would hook up, skip DeKalb Avenue, go into Pacific Street and then start that fast express run down 4th Avenue to 36th Street. What a majestic run the N had back then! The original Broadway Express!)
Would be great. Just look at all the stations skipped. Then think of it as a Coney Island special running express all the way from 59th to Coney Island non-stop!
(So I hope you enjoyed that nostalgic run over the bridge because it's becoming increasingly rare. Soon, it might not be possible at all.)
Actually, in mid-2004 it will be possible once again if ridership and other funding is high enough, and the Manhattan Bridge doesnt' fail immediately. With Atlantic Pacific, DeKalb, Stillwell and Times Square stations rebuilt, it could be the rest ride since 1925. For a few years at least.
...and the Manhattan Bridge
doesnt' fail immediately...
Very encouraging. How many repairs, rebuilds and patch-up jobs does the Manhattan Bridge have left in it's useful life. The current regime of "repairs" began back in 1983.
They shoulda replaced the bridge tracks with tunnels. Would've been a more sound long-term solution.
Ah! Memories of the old NX from 1967-8.
That's only part of it Peppertree. Real memories from the 40's and 50's see the Sea Beach Express roaring through Manhattan, over the Manny B and blasting down 4th Avenue enroute to Coney Island. That was my train, the Triplex #4 Sea Beach. What a hunk.
Well Fred, had you stayed in New York, you would have seen a return of the BMT standards to your signature line by the late 50s. You could say they went full circle.
Hey pal, let's get one thing straight right away. I never was a big fan of the Standards. As far as I was concerned, the B types were synonomous with the 4th Avenue Local or the #2 train. I despised that train and had little use for the Brighton Local which also used the Standards. Now the Brighton Express which used the Triplex and carried Bob's #1 was an altogether different kettle of fish. But the standards were never my cup of java. In fact, when I joined Subtalk and found out they were transferred to the Sea Beach in 1963 I nearly had a fit. Just setting the records straight Stevereno.
When they got into Brooklyn, the B and the N would hook up, skip DeKalb Avenue, go into Pacific Street
I bet there were a lot of merging delays "North" of De Kalb:
Southbound:
- B and D demerge
- N and Q demerge
- B and N merge
- D and Q merge
Northbound:
- B and N demerge
- D and Q demerge
- B and D merge
- N and Q merge
How about these for suggestions for avoiding all this merging/demerging if/when both sides of the bridge are open:
Scheme I (6 Av - 4 Av Exp, Bway Exp - Brighton, Bway Loc - 4 Av Loc)
(B) 168 or BPB - CPW Loc - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Exp - West End - CI
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Exp - Sea Beach - CI
< M > Metropolitan - Nassau Loc - 4th Av Loc - 9th Av (- West End - Bay Pkwy)
(Q) Astoria - Broadway Exp - Brighton Loc - CI
< Q > Astoria - Broadway Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
(R) Continental - Queens Loc - Broadway Loc - 4th Av Loc - Ft Ham
Scheme II (6 Av - Brighton, Bway Exp - 4 Av Exp, Bway Loc - 4 Av Loc)
(B) 168 or BPB - CPW Loc - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Loc - CI
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
< M > Metropolitan - Nassau Loc - 4th Av Loc - 9th Av (- West End - Bay Pkwy)
(N) Astoria - Broadway Exp - 4th Av Exp - Sea Beach - CI
(R) Continental - Queens Loc - Broadway Loc - 4th Av Loc - Ft Ham
(W) Astoria - Broadway Exp - 4th Av Exp - West End - CI
Scheme III (6 Av - 4 Av Loc, Bway Exp - 4 Av Exp, Bway Loc - Brighton)
(B) 168 or BPB - CPW Loc - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Loc - West End - CI
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Loc - Ft Ham
< M > Metropolitan - Nassau Loc - Brighton Loc - CI
(N) Continental - Broadway Exp - 4th Av Exp - Sea Beach - CI
(Q) Astoria - Queens Loc - Broadway Loc - Brighton Loc - CI
< Q > Astoria - Broadway Loc - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
Scheme IV (6 Av - 4 Av Exp, Bway Exp - 4 Av Loc, Bway Loc - Brighton)
(B) 168 or BPB - CPW Loc - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Exp - West End - CI
(D) 205 - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - 4th Av Exp - Sea Beach - CI
< M > Metropolitan - Nassau Loc - Brighton Loc - CI
(Q) Astoria - Queens Loc - Broadway Loc - Brighton Loc - CI
< Q > Astoria - Broadway Loc - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
(R) Continental - Queens Loc - Broadway Exp - 4th Av Loc - Ft Ham
Any thoughts as to whether any of these would be any good?
*WARNING, THIS IS ALL HYPOTHETICAL AND NO DECISION HAS BEEN MADE BY NYCT AND NOR WILL IT BE FOR YEARS BLAH BLAH BLAH* (So we're all aware and don't need any more smartass comments to that effect)
It all depends on the philosophy the TA decides to implement:
- If (as you suggest) two Brighton trains go over the same half of the bridge and two 4th Ave trains go over the other half, you have fewer merging delays, but you have a lot more transferring. In particular, since the 4th Ave bridge trains are best off skipping Dekalb, it becomes very difficult for 4th Ave express passengers to get to the half of the bridge that's not served by their trains, and ditto for Brighton passsengers.
- The post-1968 plan whenever both halves of the bridge were open was that both 4th Ave and Brighton have access to both halves of the bridge. This is much more desirable as long as merger delays can be kept to a minimum. Of course, if you needed 30 tph on each half of the bridge, you couldn't do this plan, but you don't, so you can.
Scheme I: No way for Brighton riders to get 6th Avenue service without the time consuming change from Atlantic to Pacific.
Scheme II: West End riders made a political issue out of the loss of service to Grand Street. For that reason, I'd say the B has to be restored to the West End.
Scheme III: Might work politically, but you are substituting merging and switching at Pacific for switching at DeKalb. Might not be worth squeezing three services through the express tracks.
Scheme 4: Same problem as scheme I.
The TA would probably benefit from scheme II operationally. I think the most likely scenario, however, is Broadway and 6th Avenue express service on both the Brighton and the 4th Avenue, as was the case before 1982. Better for the customers. We built that whole interlocking plant at DeKalb, so we might as well use it.
Controlling the Merge-demerge is a good thing, but not that good a thing.
Here are my plans, they take into account what trains are running at what times of day.
(D) 6th Avenue Express : All Times -> Brighton Local to Coney Island
(Q) Broadway Express : Day Times -> Brighton Express to Brighton Beach
(W) Broadway Express : All Times -> West End Local to Coney Island
(B) 6th Avenue Express : Day Times -> West End Express to Bay Parkway
(N) Broadway Express : Day Times -> Sea Beach to Coney Island
(R) Broadway Local : All Times -> 4th Avenue to 95th Street
(M) Borad Street : Day Times -> 4th Avenue Local to 9th Avenue (lower Level)
why 3 trains on the West End, do they have that many more passengers then the Brighton?
There are two trains on the West End: The (W) and the (B).
The (M) terminates there only to get it out of the way of other trains.
Besides, don't count the services, count instead the total tph.
I line *could* have three services and still have less service that another line.
Elias
You're giving more service to the West End than to lower Broadway in Manhattan. The W should be a Broadway local terminating at Whitehall St., certainly in the non-rush hours.
Even rush hours I don't see the business that justifies three Broadway expresses and only one local (though admittedly you may have the R running more frequently than the N, Q, and W).
Other people have said the current W and M trains on the West End are more than is needed. Rather than 6 Ws and 6 Bs, have 9 Bs on the West End and have the Broadway folks transfer to an N at Pacific.
No, that was not #4 Sea Beach speaking, it was BMT Road Dogg. But there seems to be a few of us who moan at what happened to the Sea Beach.
LOL @ Fred
I always had tremendous respect for the N line back in the day. That wonderful express run between 57th Street/7th Avenue, Manhattan and 59th Street/4th Avenue, Brooklyn was one of the best (I guess the trip over the bridge can count as an express run between Canal Street and Pacific Street).
The thing I loved most was despite the fact that DeKalb Avenue was a major stop and transfer point in Downtown Brooklyn, the N was much too important to make a stop there. It skedaddled right past the station and over the Manhattan Bridge to allow one and all the chance to marvel at the magnificent skyline New York has that compares to no other.
Yes, Fred, I remember those days well.
Then reality sets in. . .
The N now makes stops at DeKalb Avenue and is now screeching through those sharp S curves around Court Street and City Hall making all stops on Broadway that it used to thunder past. Oh, sure they threw it a bone letting the N run express from 59th Street to Pacific Street but just when the run gets good, it's cut short. And it's forced to share tracks with the R and the M (ugh!) through the Montague Street tunnel. Assuming of course that the R and M don't get preference over the N (the few times I worked the N we had to wait in the station while an R or M came and went).
Oh well, memories are a good thing, aren't they?
I remember when the R-32s made that N run effortlessly along Broadway and over the bridge. Hopefully we'll see a renaissance in 2004.
Hey Road Dog, great post----but we need more than memories. What we need is a Sea Beach renaissance and the first item in such a transformation is to get the N back on the bridge and out of that Montague rat hole. Of course, we must get the TA to get our train to Coney Island. 86th Street must not be a permanent terminal. And, yes, we need to make it an express again in Manhattan, and to bypass that horsedung DeKalb Station once and for all. If the TA doesn't want to comply the rest of us must pay them a visit and offer them a cigarette and a blindfold.
What about a Sea Beach express along the Sea Beach line? What were the two middle tracks put there for? They should be used and not left to rot.
No point using tracks where there is insufficient demand for the service. Nothing annoys people more than waiting for a local while an empty express whizzes by.
The Sea Beach Line goes through low density neighborhoods and has lines in close proximity on either side. There just isn't a big customer base there. Most South Brooklynites have quicker acces to another line.
Fred, 86 St is NOT a permanant terminal it is just until Stillwell Av gets rebuilt and reopens. Come 2004, we should see if the N gets the glory restored and I agree that the Sea Beach needs its respect back and a renaissance. Just let time pass and we will see.
Yeah.. I remember waiting at the Court Street platform and watching three M and two R trains go by.. That was a little over 3 years ago.. Well... lets pray that the TA changed this backwards mentality.
N Broadway Line
Just you my friend, no one else really cares
It just wouldn't seem normal is someone didn't chirp in with some totally assinine remark. Fortunately we have the perfect candidate in you to do the ridiculous for us.
The person said it was a slant R40. And the N runs express in Brooklyn [Pacific-59 St] all times. I agree the N has lost its glory over the years but who knows maybe come 2004, the renaissance of the N may return.
Wow! You rekindled some great memories of the N when it was the awesome Broadway Express. I used to ride it quite often with 6-car R32 trains on weekends. The Manhattan express runs were pretty good, but those 4th Ave, 36th to Pacific run was off the charts.
Wayne
Well said Wayne---and if others didn't sample it they have no idea of what they missed. If they did and weren't impressed, then they are just one screwed up dude.
Wow! You rekindled some great memories of the N when it was the awesome Broadway Express. I used to ride it quite often with 6-car R32 trains on weekends. The Manhattan express runs were pretty good, but the 4th Ave, 36th to Pacific run was off the charts.
Wayne
Hmmm...... my scenario:
Have the (Q) Bdwy and (D) 6 Ave to Brighton/ Coney respectively. both express
(B) 6 Ave and (N)>EXCEPT NIGHTS/WKNDS< Broadway go to normal service
(R) BDWY/4 Ave local via TUNNEL
(M) Nassau/ Brighton local. Terminates at OCEAN PKWY. via TUNNEL
This way,you don't need to transfer. You will need a few switches, however, they are already there. They served a purpose once, they can do so again. Besides, I ve been at DeKalb during rush. The thing I hate is that an (R) thru the tunnel has to wait for a (Q) before departing. It backs up the system if one train is even a minute delayed.
"The thing I hate is that an (R) thru the tunnel has to wait for a (Q) before departing."
Do you mean they DO wait to allow the connection? There's nothing in the track arrangement that would REQUIRE the R to wait. And rush hour trains aren't supposed to wait for connections. Sounds like a management issue rather than a routing issue.
Sounds similar to the late 70's service plan where the M went to Stillwell via Brighton and the QB was the rush hour local on Brighton.
Um, who doesn't need to transfer? Anyone going from a Brighton local station to any point in Manhattan north of Delancey Street has to transfer.
The M doesn't go where most people need to go in Manhattan. Wherever the M runs in Brooklyn, it can't be the only service at any station. It can be an express or it can be paired with another local, but it can't be the only local.
The M doesn't go where most people need to go in Manhattan. Wherever the M runs in Brooklyn, it can't be the only service at any station. It can be an express or it can be paired with another local, but it can't be the only local.
That's very true for the Southern Division, but people are stuck with just the M (or J) who live on the other end of the line, the Eastern Division. All the more reason that they should bring back some kind of Willy B to 6th Avenue service. At least the Southern DIvision lines do have a choice, provided of course the M doesn't become the only local service on let's say the Brighton, like was suggested in the above post.
While I was parking my car in 207 Yard, I saw a set of four-car redbirds that had been stripped of everything and was ready to be shipped off to their watery grave. The car numbers were 9106-9107-8874-8875.
The countdown until redbird extinction continues. . .
And soon the "Redbirds" will become extinct.
#3 West End Jeff
Those 4 redbirds were recently used as motors for the Signal Dolly. Guess they switched up.
Where has she been sighted lately?
Saw the dolly on QB the other day with 4 different redbirds for motors.
Those car numbers would be: 8958-59 and 9018-19
I only seen 5 Redbirds on the # 5 Line today but only 3 where in service.
I still see a LOT of redbirds on the 7 line, and in the Corona Yard. Are they scrapping those last?
And where are the ones that are being scrapped stripped? Are they being stripped at the Corona yard?
207th St., I would imagine.
A train set of M-7s was parked this morning as of 9:30 in the Long Beach yard, track 7. The east-end pair was 7014-7013. Check it out!!
I saw the M-7 everyday this past week during the morning.
-AcelaExpress2005
Yes, but a sighting in the Long Beach yards on the weekend is a new thing!
Maybe it was just staying there, because it doesn't run on the weekends, I don't find that new.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I took a bus to Hoboken yesteday and noticed that under the bridge between 19th and 15th Streets new concrete ties were laid down. What's going on there?
That's the right of way of the northern extension of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail.
Thanks,
I thought, that the extension is going to happen years from now.
Arti
This is a question for the New York radio buffs - I know there are some here...
I've got a working vintage FM tuner here that I'm sketching out an overhaul for since it has all original parts including a full complement of those pesky American Radionics Ceracaps. But the transformer doesn't appear to be original at all. Its top has a maker's plate that reads:
Audio Exchange
Jamaica, N. Y.
AX7-7577
If someone can tell me what kind of shop this was or any other information like that, I'd help me go a long way towards figuring out what this oddball transformer is doing on a tuner that otherwise appears to be totally original.
Thanks,
Robert King
Did you try calling that number?
Seriously though, if I'm not mistaken I think HeyPaul might be into old radios. Maybe he could help.
during the PM rush I heard (2) trains and <5> trains were delayed for a long time?
But city residents who have to do with less can breathe a sigh of relief, this one will cost only $5.9 million. Trains not included ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=85432&category=REGION&newsdate=12/21/2002
No subscription required ...
Cheer up. At least he's a petty tyrant. It reminds me of the line from "A Man for All Seasons."
Sir Thomas More is being interrogated by a former student. He asks the man, what is that medallion you're wearing. He replies, it's the seal of the Attorney General of Wales.
More says, "It would not profit you to lose your soul in return for the entire world. But for WALES, Richard?"
Does anyone know how the dispatcher decides what train are leaving the yard, or do the train operators go into the yard and pick?
The yard dispatcher will have a certain amount of trainsets available for full service depending on line requirements. Sometimes, a certain line timetable requires a certain type of car or length of train for service as well. A C train putin, will require 8 60 foot cars in the timetables; an A train bound for Rockaway park requires 10 car lengths, but R44 type cars. Crews are assigned their trains by the yardmaster ATD, or TD in these cases. A crew can always try and request a particular train if the yardmaster didn't already fill out the register sheet and doesn't want to change it, but usually they are ordered to one track. When I worked the B division, I used to have one type of car controller easier on my hands than another, I used to try to get one. A dispatcher at Lefferts was kind enough to swap trains for me before I arrived for work. It depends on who you are working for.
See http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/21/nyregion/21TRAN.html
The MTA claims the union is exaggerating the increased finding of the health plan, in violation of an agreement that neither side will boast about the contract. The MTA claims the wage and benefit increase comes to 3.4% per year.
They also say they now have the right to lay off workers, though have no plan to use it.
They also say they don't know what the bus merge will save, but that it will be real. The spokesman said "We don't know whether it's 4 percent more, 6 percent or 10 percent more."
That's really very unusual. During Mayor Wagner's administration it was the practice to let the Union talk up its gains to give the members the impression that they got a great settlement, thus assuring labor peace with reasonable settlements.
The clause is part of the "new directions" of the Paturkey administration - they didn't want TWU saying much since the other nine major bargaining units are all up for renewal this year as well. The other bargaining units are given a choice of zero raises with no or few layoffs, or take what TWU got and 7 percent layoffs. Of course, they don't want THAT mentioned either. Whoops.
I've had a chance to get a brief look at the contract. I can understand why so many are unhappy with it. Based on my unscientific survey - IT AIN'T SIGNED YET!!!
I hear that union officials have not been greeted warmly as they make their 'Victory Tour' of various work locations. Unconfirmed but I heard there was a particularly contentious incident at the Coney Island overhaul shop.
Union gains included 7 additional employees on paid 'release time' for union business. Roger also got some to be paid for 50 hours although the union pays the hours over 40. Nice way to reward the loyal.
I did find one area in which workers made solid gains. The union won the right to have their pay checks in sealed envelopes.
More to come - I'm sure.....
There were gains but i did not get to see any of it.
MABSTOA drivers go from 5 to 12 sick but they are wary of consolidation. One title got an extra dollar but not mine. Retirees go bought off by the prescription clause.
The secure health plan is valuable BUT there are some catches. The copay goes up and with the changes in the MAC and relaxed doctors lines fewer people will have to go to the doctor. Health coverage for the checkers is great but with the creation of full time checker slots they will get rid of some checkers and not have to pay for that or the 1K bonus. This is possible because now the no layoff clause is gone. Layoffs would be a strike type issue but with the death of the HBT the strike card is gone from the table no matter how bad the offers get.
For someone like me still working forced OT not having the money as part of my base stinks.
I do think 15 is fair. Having a deduction was not because the coverage is not that good anyway, if it was better I would not mind and there will be a third plan where you pay in to be part of.
The real rub is that if they were not such tough guy big shots i would have been very happy with this. If WJ came back with this they would have had a fit. If you hear about a member that gave a Union VP a 'first class condom' to celebrate the 'first class contract' it was me.
For a T/O starting out the difference between a 1K bonus and 1K base increase is around 100K over a lifetime, this might be the same for an RCI depending on OT and such like.
(If WJ came back with this they would have had a fit.)
Again, wages are RELATIVE. You should see the e-mails I got from a reporter formerly with Crains, who wrote an outraged article demanding that the bus system be privatized so bus driver wages could be cut. When I submitted some FTA data showing the real high wages and low productivity is out in the burbs, he responded that he'd never gotten such a positive response on any article his entire career.
Why? Because wages are relative. In the private sector people are being laid off, having their wages cut, having their benefits cut, having their taxes rise, having the quality of life decline. And they are pissed. WJ's four percent raise was falling behind when other raises and housing prices were rising faster. Six percent over three years is not bad when other people's take home pay is falling. The other people are pissed.
Today, the following occured:
Red Line, departing Central, the conductor closed the doors. The motorman inched the train forward. I heard "ding-ding-ding-ding" coming from the conductor's cab. The motorman threw on the brakes, train stopped. The motorman started the train again moments later, moving forward at about 10mph. About 15 seconds down the line, I heard "ding-ding-ding-ding" again, motorman then opened up and ran at full speed.
Q:
(1) What does the "ding-ding-ding-ding" bell signal mean?
(2) Was the stop necessary? If it is, what determines how long afterwards the morotman is permitted to re-start the train?
Incidentally -- today, on the Blue Line, the T/O apparently backed the train at Maverick without talking to anybody -- is that permitted? He overshot the platform by about 7', then immediately backed up (thus didn't leave him enough time to call the dispatcher).
AEM7
Sounds like the bell on LIRR MUs.
Im guessing its the automantic speed control. As far as I know, the red line is ATO. I guess the train starts by itself, when the speed indications change from 0 to whatever.
No, that's the communication between operator and guard (conductor) on the 1500-1700 series cars. It can be used alone as a signal, or "pick up the intercom."
Backing up trains a few feet in Boston is not all that uncommon, and does not have the same "stigma" it does in NYC.
On the Blue Line, there might have been an Inspector in the cab - that's often the case since they went OPTO. Maybe Boston T Party is lurking and can offer his insight?
Hi Guys,
Happy Hollidays! Todd's right. An Inspector on board or on the platform can direct a back-up move without a call to dispatch. He should have made back-up announcements for his passengers. If the train only backed up 7 feet and you were heading westbound, into Boston, the op didn't blow the station, just the the pantograph detection circuit. He has to get the train in the right spot, then lower the pantos, for the signal to clear and the trip to go down. If you have a train with soft brakes, this is the place that will likely cause you trouble.
4 bells is pick up the intercom. 5 is check out the "honey!"
Well thanks, BTP, for that! I didn't know about the five-bell secret code :-)
Sounds like the bell on LIRR MUs.
Im guessing its the automantic speed control. As far as I know, the red line is ATO. I guess the train starts by itself, when the speed indications change from 0 to whatever. About the overshoot, SEPTA operators can do that. Don't know about MBTA though.
Just for the record I found this on a goverment web site - interesting.
http://www.local-transport.dft.gov.uk/nysubway/index.htm
Simon
Swindon
Interesting things shown there:
1) we're more 'underground' then the Underground, by percentage.
2) the Underground has no air conditioning! how do they survive when it gets hot?
3) it's a few years old, because the 63rd street connector is listed as "under construction"
1) we're more 'underground' then the Underground, by percentage.
Yep - I suppose it is quite an irony. Here's a trivia question: which three Underground routings (excluding the DLR) are in no part underground? There used to be two others - where?
2) the Underground has no air conditioning! how do they survive when it gets hot?
Just as folks in NYC used to - open the windows and loosen your tie.
3) it's a few years old, because the 63rd street connector is listed as "under construction"
Published 25 April 2001.
Yep - I suppose it is quite an irony. Here's a trivia question: which three Underground routings (excluding the DLR) are in no part underground? There used to be two others - where?
Well the only ones I can think of are short shuttle lines:
Chesham-Chalfont/Latimer shuttle (Metropolitan)
Woodford-Hainault shuttle (Central)
Earl's Court-Kensington Olympia (District, or does all Olympia service run to Edgware Road like shown on the strip map?)
Mill Hill East-Finchley Central shuttle (Northern)
Epping-Ongar (Central, discontinued)
Olympia shuttle trains turn at High Street Kensington. Edgware Road trains run to Wimbledon and it is the only District Line service to use C stock.
Chesham-Chalfont/Latimer shuttle (Metropolitan)
Woodford-Hainault shuttle (Central)
Yep!
Earl's Court-Kensington Olympia (District, or does all Olympia service run to Edgware Road like shown on the strip map?)
They run to/from High Street Kensington (aka Hi Ken). I think there's also a bit in tunnel just West of Earl's Court under the Exhibition Centre.
Mill Hill East-Finchley Central shuttle (Northern)
I thought all Northern Line trains on the MIll Hill East Branch were to/from Morden - via Charing Cross (M-F any time, Sat 0900-2100, Sun 0900-1900) or via Bank (M-F off-peak, weekend any time) is the information I have, but I don't ride the Northern Line enough to know for sure if this is still the case. The ones on the Charing X branch might have been chopped back to Kennington when they redid the timetable (which they don't publish - pretty annoying when you are trying to get to/from Mill Hill East and there are only 4tph!), but I hadn't heard of there being a shuttle.
There is one other current routing which is in no part underground.
Epping-Ongar (Central, discontinued)
Yes - that's the better known of the discontinued ones... any guesses on the other?
> There is one other current routing which is in no part underground.
I can't think of this one besides depot related moves like acton town-rayners lane.
> that's the better known of the discontinued ones... any guesses on the other?
If we go way back, Acton Town-South Acton shuttle.
I can't think of this one besides depot related moves like acton town-rayners lane.
Okay, I guess I was slightly cheating - it doesn't involve an actual depot, but it is about getting trains into service on a branch: Amersham/Rickmansworth - Watford.
If we go way back, Acton Town-South Acton shuttle.
Absolutely! A very silly routing if ever there was one!
I was thinking about putting three down and citing Quainton Road - Brill as the third, but that was before the Met was part of the Underground, so I thought that would be way too obscure.
From my understanding, London seldom gets the sweltering heat of the U.S., and the open-topped Metropolitan Line is breezier than our hell tubes. Since you gave up steam engines, at any rate.
Few U.K. buildings have A.C.
Even the newest cars (the 1992, 1995 and 1996 Tube Stock) do not have any air-conditioning.
One thing I was relieved to discover during my week in London last year was that the LU trains sing just as loudly on curves as their NYCT counterparts - and NO track sprayers/wheel greasers etc. The Bakerloo's 1972 MkII Tube Stock is guilty of especially vicious wheel noise, in particular at Paddington. This symphony can be heard even in the street above!
wayne
It states that LUL has had no crashes in the last ten years, but my stock book states that:
29 March 1994, BakerLoo line at Harrow & Weldstone, 3539, 4539 lost
22 April 1994, BakerLoo line @ PiccadillY Circus, 3249, 4249 lost
3 December 1996, BakerLoo line @ Piccadilly Circus, 3257 lost.
I have no details as to injuries etc. only the date of the incidents and the unit numbers.
wayne
Ah the Portaloo line was always terrible... but it goes to Marylebone, so it can't be too bad!
New trains on Victoria and Jubilee lines by 20102
Man, and we thought our rolling stock was old... they have another 18,000 years to wait for theirs. :)
Its interesting how they note 2nd Avenue as a planned extension. maybe they should create a category "Longest planned but never executed extension" as well.
I just purchased some un marked passenger cars in Metro North Colors. These units are used on the Upper Hudson Division un electricfied division. They are in MTA colors but no markings. Can I have some Metro North Decals from previous models, can any one tell me where I can find a roster of Metro North Cars. Thanks
Some data is right here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/commuter/mnrr/index.html
Everything here:
http://www.fl9.railfan.net/roster1.html
TELL me you didn't go 1:1 scale. :)
Thanks I found what I needed
Cool! Ya never did answer the question of what scale though. 1:1 or something a little more practical and smaller? :)
If the cars are HO or N scale, you CAN purchase Metro-North decals for them from Micro-Scale, about four bucks a set. They have all the striping, logos, car numbers and names.
http://www.microscale.com
Thanks Steve, I will check them out later
A general order seems to be in effect today on Queens Blvd, although it does not appear on any in-station Service Notices or the Transit website. Basically...
E: Local in Queens.
F: Express between 21st-Queensbridge and Union Turnpike.
G: Turns at Court Square.
R: Normal.
Why all the secrecy? Why couldn't this have been announced like all other GO's?
It might be an *emergency* GO. Something that they don't tend to advertise.
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard this morning on Shadow Traffic that there was switch problems. This would last until about 4 pm.
Maybe they don't want G riders to know that their line is being short-turned even when it isn't supposed to be! {except for those that go through there}
Anyway in a GO of this case, I don't see why the E and F shouldn't both be local.
they might be doing track/signal work on the Queens plaza express tracks?
That makes sense. I can't see why else the F would be local, while the E would not.
E is local, F is express I believe
If there is a problem with the switches, It'd make sense to have the E run local and the F as an express. And the switches that connect the R with the line apprantly wasn't affected.
Well, I finally joined the 21st Century and bought a home computer complete with printer/scanner. They're really clamping down on non-business internet use at work, so that's why I haven't posted in a while.
I finally got my Subtalk Day photos developed and will practice scanning them. Details to follow. Hey Kev, you really came out good while running 1689. Dead serious look, too.
Welcome to the 21st Century, bro! Heh. Yeah, I could never help myself when running trains. It IS serious stuff, always has been to me. After all, it was an Arnine that ended my TA career, I learned many years ago to NEVER let them get away from ya. And they WANT to. :)
One of these days, we're hoping to find the time to scan ours as well, wasn't all that much though out of OUR camera - mostly shots of Nancy and I and a few other people. I'm sure YOURS will be MUCH better than ours were. Looking forward to it indeed.
I missed ya!
I also took a photo of Nancy as she threw that switch when we were guiding 1689 out of the barn.
There's a general candid of the gang inside the car with you turning one of the crank handles on a sign box.
I'm still checking out all the bells and whistles on this computer. It can burn DVDs, among other things. I need to import all of my subway sound bits I have stored on my computer at work.
I married a foamer. Heh. And I'd do it again. She's no slouch. She ran the damned Arnine better than *I* did! :)
Now that you have a new computer, I highly reccomend the anti-trojan products put out by: www.nsclean.com.
Peace
ANDEE
Personal attention from Unca Selkirk and a free Joe Bruno voodoo doll in every pack. :)
Doesn't NSClean also hide any picture of Arnines it finds on your computer? ;-)
AEM-R9
Only if you drag them to the FileVac ... you'll never recover them. :)
But why would ANYONE wanna DO that?
I highly reccomend the anti-trojan products put out....
Why? Are Lifestyles, Durex, etc better?
Sorry, bad joke....I couldn't resist.
>>>Sorry, bad joke....I couldn't resist. <<<
You SHOULD have.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh well.
.....Ducts out of the way while rocks are being thrown.
lol
My god! The amount of messages that you post, one would have thought that you had your own computer. Now you have one for sure. When I first started to post messages on Sub Talk, I didn't have a computer so I used the ones at the local library. I bought my own computer from Dell in late September 2000 and received it in early October 2000. It has certainly been great having my own computer.
#3 West End Jeff
The amount of messages that you post, one would have thought that you had your own computer.
Wow, that's what I was thinking!
No, that was all from work. Not any more. Most of my postings will now be on evenings and weekends.
Also, please note my email address has changed. The other one is my address at work. It's still valid.
Well, enjoy your new computer. Soon, you won't know how you lived without it!
Once you light up BVE, you won't be here nights or weekends either. :)
Moo.
Steve, Did you really do it?
After all of these years of posting only during daylight hours you will finally be able to stay up till all hours of the night on SubTalk.
I still need my beauty rest.:) Gotta get up very early (before 4 AM) to go to work.
I'll bet you'll still need some time for the AF S gauge too!
That and a nice, big basement.:)
Lionel's Flyer New York Central passenger set just came out. I picked mine up last week. The funny part is they didn't call it by any of the named trains of that railroad's heyday. No Empire State Express or 20th Century Limited. Nice color scheme, though.
My dad worked for the New York Central, so it is sort of a special railroad for me.
I have a 2333 NYC F-3 AA diesel from Lionel. I got it slightly used way back in 1952. It doesn't have Magne-Traction, but with twin motors it still pulls anything I put behind it.
I got four AMT extruded aluminum passenger cars with NYC plates on them and it makes a attractive train even though the cars are not NYC gray.
For anyone who "cares", I haven't been here lately myself and I'm back and ready to post again! Welcome back.
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Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
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As far as I know, these are the rules:
one blast, warning or caution to track workers, et. al.
two blasts, passing a station platform without stopping
three blasts, emergency
I have been on a train, where someone had some medical attack and the T/O used the three blasts (at Times Sq, BMT) to call for help.
Can anyone tell me about any other rules for horn blasts or if I am wrong about any part of it?
Two long blasts when passing yellow flags or lanterns;
two short blasts to acknowledge the flagman's signal;
three short to call for RCI;
Long short Long short to call for assistance (police, EMS)
Succession of short sounds to warn people on or near trackway when operating against the normal direction of traffic or when bypassing stations.
One blast: conductor flirting with you. I was at Porter Sq. one time with some friends -- an attractive female conductor was on, so I smiled and said thank you (train was already moving). Got a smile, a wave and a blast on the horn :)
My friends were later flagbasted that I knew conductors on the MBTA. Of course, I never gave away the fact that I didn't know her, although, knowing me, I may have flirted with her before and she may recognize me :-p
AEM7
Am' I lucky or what. I just found 7 old subway map today at the local flea market on Broadway/Prince. Maps dated back in
May 24, 1987
Dec 11, 1988
1979 (Not date)
August 21, 1989
1992
May-August 1995 (with MannyB service diversion on both sides)
January 1994
Here is May 24, 1987 map with these interested features
K Train operate in 8thAve as local
Brown diamond R train runs btw Chamber and 95th during rush hour only on the Nassau line.
Yellow (B) (D) (Q) (N) running on the Southside MannyB...N runs on the bridge Late nite evening and weekend. B run to Astoria like today's W train. Yellow B and D are broadway express service.
Service Notices with the Manny B lines and N and R switches terminal at Queens. And JFK Express line and H and diamond C to/from Rockaway Park.
The 1980 map has and (N) running southside MannyB and #5 terminate at Utica and (2) terminate at New Lots. (3) and (4) to/from flatbush ave and J train service notices
Did they had anymore? If so when will they do another flea market like that @ Broadway & Prince Street? Also were they for sale
Sorry Amin, they only had those 7 subway maps which I paid only $2.00 for all seven. I even asked the seller if he has more other old edition maps. But, he only have those 7 maps. The flea market is where they sells old antiques and other used stuffs. You might wanna check out at the chinese antique shop in Elizabeth Street and Hester Street in Chinatown. They do have old subway maps. I'm not sure if they still have it.
Thanks anyway.
Why did you have to be so greedy LOL ;-). Damn, I wish I knew of that :-(.
Odds & Sods from the NYCT Metals, Dec. 21 2002.
There was an R32 gadding about on the "W" today, making for a nice break from the endless line of R68A, this was made up of:
(north motor) 3713-3712, 3700-3701, 3816-3817, 3724-3725 and 3602-3603 (south motor); all were Phase II CI Yd cars, formerly "N" stock. There was also an oddball R32 on the "R" as well (3759-3758, 3774-3775, 3643-3642, 3806-3807, 3748-3749).
R46 #6130, leading a s/b "R" train, caused some consternation and confusion among the passengers by boldly wearing its "Brooklyn Bankers Special" Brown Diamond "R", I managed to get a picture of it as it paused in 34th Street station.
Some of the Pitkin Yard R32s got out for a run in the sun today by filling in as "A" trains on the Far Rockaway shuttle service (there was a G.O. as there was a large crew working in Howard Beach station, and they set up a one-lunger from Aqueduct Racetrack - oh, yes, we stopped there going in BOTH directions and both times pax boarded and alighted).
Out-of-sysstem highlight was a first-time-ever walk around the full perimeter of the former WTC site, and a visit to Winter Garden to view the exhibits. I liked the idea with the floating park and three towers. The tic-tac-toe building had most people scratching their heads, as did the "perisphere and trylon" design. They are busy as beavers working at the PATH station. 130 Liberty looks as if she will have to be torn down; floors are pancaked halfway up the tower. Century 21 was doing a land-office business and despite the mob the cashiers had me in and out in mere seconds! Try doing THAT at Macy's!
wayne
Don't even get me started on Macy's. Knowing what their lines are like at this time of the year, I got on a line at the SI Macy's and pulled out a book. A staff member approached and:
What do you think you're doing?
I think I'm reading a book while waiting on line.
You can't do that.
What? Read a book? or wait on line? Cause if you don't want me to wait on line, I'll gladly take this stuff and walk out the door.
That would be stealing.
No. If I offer to pay and you decline to accept my money, it's not stealing - it's a gift.
R46 #6130, leading a s/b "R" train, caused some consternation and confusion among the passengers by boldly wearing its "Brooklyn Bankers Special" Brown Diamond "R", I managed to get a picture of it as it paused in 34th Street station.
I guess that proves that the R46's are capable of running to at least Chambers Street on the Nassau Line. Someone said a few months back that he remembered seeing the R46's being used on the rush hour R's to Chambers.
It would be interesting to see a photo of one of them at Broad, Fulton, or Chambers.
Presumebly they will make it to Chambers, although it is a tight sqeeze. Policy dictates that you can't bring them past Broad, so when that R T/O got the wrong lineup at the Nassau cut and took it, they bad him reverse into the relay tracks south of the station, then reverse back onto to the southbound track, before going back to Brooklyn.
If they shaved the n/b tunnel approaching Chambers, then a 75-footer will pass. This reverse curve is ALMOST as daunting as that above Cortlandt, not as much angle (probably about 60 degrees on the second, tighter curve) and a little more breathing room betwen the bends. The first curve is actually graduated slightly, it's the second one that is more severe.
wayne
B divison equipment (R40/42/44/46) use an interchangable end sign box.
Elsewhere on this board it's been proposed that the "E" be connected throgh the Cortlandt St. BMT station and run through the tunnel (given that the 8th av. & 53th st. routes are otherwise so valuable, it' a shame they stop in Manhattan.) Does this car length limitation at these curves on the Broadway line make this idea totally impossible, or can the walls be shaved back at the tight points?
No problem with the R46's (or any 75 foot car) running on the Broadway (Manhattan) Line. The problem is only on the J/Z, M, and L Lines.
All the tunnel clearances have been adjusted to accomodate the 75' cars, all the way from Pacific up the Montague Tunnel to just n. of City Hall. The big problem was n.of Cortlandt.
wayne
I heard of Slant R-40s on the "W", but this is the first time I've heard of R-32s in the "W".
#3 West End Jeff
A few R-40's and/or R-32's usually float over to the W on weekends. Coney Island only has three R-32 trainsets left to begin with, so they're not all that easy to find anywhere, but on weekends they're about as likely to be found on the W as on the N.
That explains why R-32s are occasionally seen on the "W".
#3 West End Jeff
They were sporting DIAMOND "W" side route signs, and the front bulkhead sign looked like an upside-down "M".
wayne
I'll post photos as soon as I scan them. I just got through about 10-15 rolls and I have 10 left in the backlog.
I don't think the R-32's have circle-W side signs. The diamond will have to suffice.
and the front bulkhead sign looked like an upside-down "M".
Was it yellow or brown?
Faded yellowish-green. R-32, remember.
I don't know, it was so dim I couldn't tell! :o>
wayne
"130 Liberty looks as if she will have to be torn down; floors are pancaked halfway up the tower."
The Deutsche Bank building had no real structural damage from the WTC collapse (I know someone who was working security as they salavaged papers from the building). The windows were blown out, and there are reports of extensive mold in the ventilation system and toxic substances all over. Everyone who works there has to wear fairly elaborate hazard protection suits.
If you see pancaked floors, perhaps it means they are demolishing the building, but that certainly was not original damage.
>>"There was also an oddball R32 on the "R" as well (3759-3758, 3774-3775, 3643-3642, 3806-3807, 3748-3749)."<<
Actually an R32 running on the R is not a oddball, the R has a few sets of 32's. BTW, I saw 2 sets of R40M's on the Q diamond on Friday, looks like the R40M's are really making a move to CI.
The Jamaica R-32's are assigned only to the E and F. Sometimes they drift over to the R, but they're not assigned there (just as no R-46's are assigned to the E).
And that would explain #5746-7-9-8 and its sister foursome (didn't get the bunch #) running on the "E" - the "E" and "R" must have swapped a trainset each.
wayne
I bet this has been discussed in the past, but why do some R32 signs have a diamond N in the signroll ?
Those signs were part of an order to replace damaged signs in the R-32 and 38 on a sign to sign basis and I'd guess less then 20 cars got them. Aside from the diamond N, It also says "Train to the plane" as opposed to "JFK Express" and this sign also has "K 6th Ave Local" instead of "K 8th Ave Local". After the mistakes were discovered, Almost all of them were thrown into a dumpster at Coney Island Yard (1,000 or so of them)
-Mark
I thought the diamond-N was the Manhattan-only reading, with no reference to Astoria or Sea Beach, perhaps for short-turns at Whitehall:
The sign in the photo you posted it another variation that was used very early. It should have all 6th Ave readings as "Avenue of the Americas Express" I'll try to get a pic up of the one I am talking about.
It should have all 6th Ave readings as "Avenue of the Americas Express"
????
"N - Avenue of the Americas Express"??????
He meant that for the 6 av lines (B, D, Q, F, V) it would have "Avenue of the Americas" instead of 6 av listed.
I dont think that Q will see 6 Ave again. As long as the Manny B can hold up. The Q was is and will be a Bway BMT line.
I doubt it also, it was just a "temporary" move [12 years of course doesn't make it temporary and stuff like this is the MTA's definition of temporary]. Its about time the Q goes back to Broadway where it belongs.
So there are three different extant versions of the R-32 rollsign?
I saw one R32 sign on the E that read (if I remember correctly)
E - Queens Blvd Express
Eighth Ave Local
The font in the sign was in Aksidenz by the way.
That can't be. That "Ave of Americas" stuff was removed when the R32's were overhauled. The font is also all wrong.
The pre-GOH'ed R32I, II and R38 MU's had signage to show the Broadway Local N turning at Whitehall. This was before the 1987 terminal flip flop, when the Nancy was the IND local.
At that time, it was one of the few trains to have been shopped/yared at two locations: Jamaica and Coney.
The pre-GOH'ed R32I, II and R38 MU's had signage to show the Broadway Local (diamond) N turning at Whitehall. This was before the 1987 terminal flip flop, when the Nancy was the IND local.
At that time, it was one of the few trains to have been shopped/yarded at two locations: Jamaica and Coney.
It's a special sign that will be used during the April 2003 GO where any Sea Beach Express that Sea Beach Fred rides on will run express between Stillwell Avenue and 57th / 7th Avenue, and will be signed "N diamond".
--Mark
The N used to use the diamond when it ran over the Manhattan Bridge in the 1980's.
The Feb 2003 issue of Classic Toy Trainshas a very favorable review of the MTH hard to find R-32 Subway Set.
The review does mention that the cars are 14" long which scales out to a 56' car. Since the actual R-32's are 58' 9" long, does this mean that this much touted set is really not made to scale afterall?
Sometimes the manufacturers and reviewers are measuring from different points. One might measure the body -- one might measure over couplers, one might even measure from inside the pulling faces of the couplers. That could be the difference.
I haven't read the article, but as an owner of all of the MTH subway sets except the blue-stripe R-42 and the Chicago set, I would have to say that the R-32 set is not my favorite, for reasons other than the possible lack of scale:
1) The operating passenger doors. MTH decided that the R-32 set, as a "Premiere" set as opposed to a "Railking" set, should have added features. They put in these operating side doors, which are more of a nuisance than they are worth. For one thing, they are operated by a small lever found on the underside of the car. This lever is hard to reach and activate. Also, the tiny metal lever has a plastic cover, which easily pops off or breaks. (MTH included extra platic lever covers.) Additionally, the mechanism is really stiff and can get stuck. What's more, I've noticed markings on the blue doors after opening and closing them--some of the doors scrape the silver outer body, and I could see gouging them and scraping off the paint if used frequently.Finally, these doors cause other problems, such as:
2) Less-detailed interior than the other MTH sets. There are no real door pockets; when the doors open, they occupy space where seats should be. Furthermore, the door mechanism runs ON TOP of the seats. The doors are also recessed too far in the car body; to have this recession to scale, the outer body panels would have to be too thin.
3) Maually-operated tail lights and marker lights. To set the "Local/Express" on the front car, and the headlights/tail lights on the rear car, you must open the passenger doors (which is a real pain) and flick some switches. On the rear car, the switch is inside an large black box that takes up a portion of the car's interior; I fail to see why they couldn't have put a couple of tiny switches on the car's underside.
4) Modelling detail errors. The door window frame mouldings (with bolts) and the side window frames (one-piece casement on the longer windows) are post-GOH versions of these features; The car front ends, with marker lights and Local/Express signs, are pre-GOH. And while the addition of car end safety chains is a nice idea, why did they use that grossly out-of-scale chain?
5) The cars are underpowered. A common criticism of all of the MTH subway sets is that the unpowered cars use sleeve-bearing trucks with flat wheelsets, as opposed to needle-point bearings and fast-action wheelsets. The rather heavy, friction-laden unpowered cars limit the ability of the powered car to pull multiple units. A powered unit can pull 3 cars easily; five cars more slowly; and seven cars with great difficulty. A ten-car train is a virtual impossibility, unless you combine two four-car sets (with two powered units). The R-32 model makes use of the same drivetrain as the other Railking sets, even though cars are longer and heavier. Try running these cars up even a mild grade and see what happens.
6) Less bang for the buck. For more than $100 over the cost of a Railking set, you get: a) metal grab bars instead of molded-in grab bars; b) more detailed end gates; c)lighted destination signs (although the side signs are lit by the car's interior lights, not from separate bulbs); d) metal roof ventilation grates; e) end chains; f) switchable headlight and tail lights for the rear car; g)red-painted third rail shoe (they included this on the new R-36 Railking set); g) more detailed anticlimbers; h) switchable local/express signs on the front car; i)those cumbersome operating doors; and j) a train operator figure.
Are all of these added features worth the added cost?
So far, the best set MTH has offered is the R-36 set. The reason? the highly detailed paint job: they even painted the door gaskets and door window mouldings black, and the windfow frames silver. The worst sets? Either of the R-42 sets.
I haven't read the article, but as an owner of all of the MTH subway sets except the blue-stripe R-42
I was on the verge of buying a used set of the R-42 Blue Stripe when I had an opportunity to get a brand new set of R-17's at a better price. I had done a lot of work on the R-42 for the owner, including replacing all of the light bulbs, and changing some of the couplers to close up the gaps. I ran it on my layout, and really enjoyed the bing-bong sound, even though technically it was not on the prototype.
the tiny metal lever has a plastic cover, which easily pops off or breaks.
I actually saw the little black plastic cap come off in the hands of two dealers trying to demonstrate the door operation at train shows.
Not a good selling point as to quality!
Karl. It is my understanding that MTH made the R-32's in O scale, while the IRT cars (R17,21 and 36 sets) in O gauge...what's the difference? Put an IRT car next to one of the R-32's. You can plainly see that the IRT is built slightly larger than the R-32 car. All of my other O scale models match the R-32...while the Redbird set measured a tad larger.
Doug, I think I know what you mean, but I would like to see it for myself.
Unfortunately, while there are a lot of subway sets in this area no one seems to have the R-32.
I guess we are doomed to having nothing but IRT equipment offered in the RailKing line unless MTH breaks down, and decides to offer some of the old BMT 50 footers, and I don't think they will do that. I personnally did not mind the R-42's as a 50' car, but I don't have a set either.
What do you think is MTH's most popular set?
It would seem to be the R-21!
Karl, I agree...the Redbirds or the new R-36 sets seem to be their big sellers.
The Redbirds are doubly popular since they look great running around a Christmas tree in their unintentional holiday color scheme :)
Karl,
I sympathize with you Karl. I have one set each of the MTH subway cars including the R32s, but really hope MTH will begin making BMT/IND models. What would look better than BMT ABs and D-types on an O-scale layout? Come to think of it, the BMT Q and C types and gate cars would suit me fine.
Hot Lunch!
Well, that makes two of us. I wonder if we might gather some more support, and get a petition to Mike Wolf at MTH.
***>>>R9s<<<^^^
Now if they only made Arnines in N gauge, I'd be a happy clam. (not to worry, I'll buy a looto ticket, better chances). :)
Or S gauge, for that matter.
A Russian firm is making O gauges arnines for a colloboration with Q-Car Co.
I am not interested in 2-rail bra$$
Sounds like the colloboration is St. Pertersburg Car Works if Quenton is the other half. Pricey, but worth every penny you'll spend (cars and what you pay of what to run it on). Also may have waiting time equal to any MTH product.
If it's a collaboration with St. Petersburg, very likely, it will be quite expensive and it won't come powered. (I have the St. P. BMT Bluebird--priced around $600--it's a beautiful piece of work, very if not completely accurate, but to motorize it would have cost another $130 plus another $30 for the "correct" third-rail shoes. The motor, from Q-Car, was two-rail DC only.)
Did Q-Car have a collaborator for the IRT Lo-Vs? I think the powered three-rail version was over $500 for one car.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
With 2004 coming, someone could make a PILE of money making Gibbs cars or HiV's to sell for the upcoming "birthday". (hint-hint)
You are correct, sir.
Same company that made the Bluebirds in the former USSR is making the R-9's. One car is going to be around 500-600 bucks. And yes, as rumored, they will come unpowered (BUT, Q-car will -- for an additional charge -- supply powered trucks for the cars)...:(
TO: Hot Lunch
I have many O-Scale "Q" type El Car models -- both in IRT 3rd Ave El service, BMT 1939-1949 Queens colors and service and doing a set in 1958 Myrtle ave El (high roof) colors....as well as BMT and IRT el gate cars....see below--a Q type (IRT style) and BMT 1200 series gate motor (unconverted Q so to say !)
Regards - Joe
(Joseph Frank)
PLUS - shades of the Bronx 3rd Ave El - 1957 thru 1969 --- Low-V Steinways relacing Q's in Jan 1957 and 1939 WF Low-V Steinways trains
(Models)
AND -- My NYCTA R-32 cars look great on my EL system--and they are 1/48 O-scale ---R-32 (and all BMT-IND R-types from R-42 down to R-1/9) should be appx.60" from anticlimber to anticlimber !!
Hey, Unca Joe! Happy Holidays!
I've been AWOL from the O Gauge site cause I forgot my password! Gotta get in the groove for 2003 (now that Lifelike is due to produce a set of IRT R-17's in HO -- the subway hobby is GROWING).
Hope you had a good holiday.
Doug
I've only seen the R/12s in the catologue in white and original. I'd like to see'em up close first.
I like the MOW work r/17. in yellow and black! I'd like to swap the running gear from my red birds to creat a revenue train.
avid
I wonder how long it will be before the R-12's will be available.
I'm still waiting for my R/32s.
A recent MTH catologue has a two-car add on set! I'm still waiting for the first set!
If past performance is an indicator, I figure a year plus. Just enough to miss the next seasonal wave of peaked demand.
MTH has reduced its work force in the USof A, and the world economy is kinda edging towards the crapper.
Has any one done a performance test on Lionels MU sets?
They start out with a two car power set, then offer a two car unpowered set as an add-on. How do they compare to the R32s?
A recent catoluge had the Yellow and Black MOW car unpowered.
So Plan #1 Get two and create Revenue colleter after swapping the running gear.
Plan #2 Get ten and great welded rail laying train.
Plan #3 get one , paint black, create Bloomberg buisness Car!
Plan #4 get one and install R/9 cab and create heypaul car!!!!!!!
A VERY POLITICALLY INCORRECT "MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL"
not holiday, not seasons greetings.
I used the EM CEE words.
avid
avid... the heypaul car conversion kit is available for a considerable sum from heypaul heavy industries of coney island...
a merry christmas and happy new year to you... heypaul--ceo heypaul heavy industries of coney island
Many thanks my good friend. I was thinking of a horse car conversion kit and calling it the BRTman car.
Do you think it will fly?
Your input would be appricated if the price is right?
avid
I don't know about the horsecar theme. Convert it into a 2 car Franklin Shuttle train and I think you'll have a winner.
Only if the switch on the southbound side is spiked wrong rail to southbound local access. He's a bit fussy about that. :)
....hmmmmm....
[... a horse car conversion kit and calling it the BRTman
car. Do you think it will fly? ...]
Well, at least it would get a lot of flys < G >
I assume you guys know they want to close to only hansom carriage barn in Manhattan ? Something about realestate development. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put a businessman vs. a politian in the mayor's office ? Seems it didn't work out too well in the Oval office either.
"Seems it didn't work out too well in the Oval office either."
Didn't work out too well before, either. At least with this president interns won't be getting "Oval Office" carpet burns on their knees and our tax dollars won't be paying for the carpet cleaning bills for those funny white stains.
Frankly, I'd prefer a president that did it to an intern than one that's doing it to US ... we HAD "folding money" prior to THIS guy. :(
errrrrr some of us still do....
Where do ya live? Bruno'll be around in a few minutes. :)
"Frankly, I'd prefer a president that did it to an intern than one that's doing it to US"
Interesting point,Kevin. I must say I'm disappointed though. I thought it was always the primative cultures that allowed the sacrificing of a virgin (almost a virgin in Monica's case) to appease the gods.
Dude ... I offered you some time in Albany ... gotta take it in for yourself to believe that screwing SOMEBODY is business as usual and hardly impressive amongst our lawgivers. Doesn't matter what side of the aisle either. They actually have "legislative aides" whose SOLE job is to make sure they're zipped up again before going in front of the cameras. Sometimes they forget. That's why the NY-SCAN channel died. :)
Perhaps the point Kevin is trying to make, is that it's less primitive than sacrificing all of us for the sake of the upper 1%...the price to clean the oval office carpet is miniscule by comparison.
I heard Monica's father address that subject a while back when on "Law and Order" oral sex was referred to as "a lewinsky". I don't think that he believes that lending his name to pop culture (let alone his daughter) was a small sacrafice. Then again, perhaps she kept bill relaxed enough so that he wouldn't blow up too many asperin factories.
heypaul heavy industries of coney island .... is your stock ticker symbol "hic"? I think it's trading at around $10 ....
--Mark
Paul... call me if you wanna shoot a commercial for HIC!
Karl, according to the MTH Website, the R-12s will be shipped on January 3, 2003. Of course for those of us who have been through this before, that can mean only one thing. The R-12s will be shipped from China to the US on 1/3/03. If MTH runs true to form, the R-12s will be in the hands of the dealers around July.
Actually the R32's are 60 feet long.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Subtalk has changed so much since I was last here -- you guys actually talk about SUBWAY things now, and it's only like 250 messages daily. I remember when I was around, it was like 550 messages daily and there were so many off-topic posts that I could take part in. And no one else posts about BOS anymore, apart from two messages I saw today :-(
Come on, let's make this more interesting to the non-MTA people, and you guys should reply to my off-topic postings so it can escalate.
AEM7
I have an idea. Why don't YOU start a forum called "OTtalk" and we'll all come and post subway stuff on it?
I think one of the reasons I don't post regularly on Subtalk anymore is the lack of interesting subway topics that tickled my fancy. I am mechanically minded, and read into those who posted of train troubles, operational troubles, and union/management issues. Selkirk and his R9 days, the Transit Professional with his announcements, Bill from Maspeth with the 600 volt headlights, and the rookie days of tier one and two motormen is about all I might respond to nowadays. Aside from learning when Todd Glickman is in town, I find mysself clicking here less and less, and riding my motorcycle more and more.
That's pretty much what I get my OWN yayas over, alas I've pretty much shot my wad in the archives here already - there aren't all THAT many "noteworthy days" on the iron, and having done just under a year's worth myself, there's that much less for me to chip in with. And I don't really get my cookies discussing where the N train should run tomorrow. Still, there's some REALLY great folks here so I still come back to razz 'em. :)
You still know your stuff when it comes to the R-1/9s.
BTW, do you realize 1689's heater breakers were never turned on during Subtalk Day? The fans, well, that's another story.
As for boring, nothing breaks the monotony more than:
R-10s on the A
R-4s on the D
Actually, the fans (as well as the vent openings) were done to take some of the "musty" out ... alas, it rained and it became law of diminishing returns. :(
But the HEATERS? As nice and crispy as they would have been it would have BANKRUPTED the museum to have lit those up - wasn't about to. NYCTA may have been able to pay the electric bill for those - I wanted to save those precious watts for tots for the traction motors so's I could get you that HAPPY NOTE (much to Unca Lou's twitchiness) as I bore down on the curve and he didn't see me go to take a minibrake where HE woulda.
It was nice getting the car to hunt on the rails like they did on the subway (you need to really get them up to speed before they'd hunt, causing that comforting, familiar Arnine side motion) and we were running out of space. Fortunately for Unca Lou's blood pressure, I got my application in just before we hit the curve, once again just like the good old days when you actually DID get to the terminal when the clock said you should be there (and arrival time was actual lock up the cab time when trains were trains and the homeballs were nervous). :)
Forgoing the heaters was worth it though - I don't think others would have had the stones to wind up 1689 the way I did there - ah if only there was a couple of miles of straightaway ... but that's why I really enjoyed 1689 - she's in GREAT shape. As healthy as an R6-2 on a GOOD day! :)
Nancy wound it up pretty good, too. Got it up to E above middle C. I still wish I could have gotten an outbound run. Oh well, maybe next time...
Yeah, she's just like me when it comes to operating. And she had a great motor instructor (Unca Lou) ... and DEFINITELY, we gotta do that again. Considering how many people put a door out of the station on the way back in (and LEFT it that way) I think I'll make it a point to do more inbounds next chime. I think next year though, it'll be Dougie's train we play with, although I wouldn't mind taking out 1689 either. Maybe in two years. I *do* want to find time once the ice melts to do something about those damned cab doors and storm doors though and see if we can fix up that ME23 valve a bit. Considering that's all that was in need of being written up, she's in great shape. Poor Peter - CI on board and nothing for him to do. Heh.
Man oh man, Peter was licking his chops when he saw 6688.
Heh. Yeah, I noticed that too. And CI Peter and 6688 can BOTH enjoy one another's company and love. It helps to round out Peter's background with his beloved bye bye birdies (and keeps a piece of his own history in place somewhere after they're all gone) and 6688 can be kept happy. What'd REALLY do it for me personally is someone who can give 1689 the TLC as well - I'm really not qualified to fix mechanical gear, and my electronics background would be of little use either. I worry that 1689 will have the care she needs down the road - it's simple stuff mechanically, but for her age, most of what she needs will be in the form of freshly machined parts - that's something I can't do very well. :(
Hey what about me? I saw her first!!! She's mine.... LOL! I hope to devote the following two Saturdays after this one to BERA as I head into some much needed TLC. Heh. I go back to work tomorrow, and will only have a two (?) day work week.
Have to check tomorrow and see if I got Friday as an AVA.
I wouldn't worry too much about 1689, we'll take care of her. Jeff H and our shop foreman are pretty well versed in the mechaics of the R-9....
-Stef
Yeah, hopefully THIS year we'll be able to start hiring folks again so's I can get a day or two OFF (working today too) and get up to Branford. Would LOVE to learn the mechanicals and electricals on 1689 just to be "handy" ... and not to worry about CI Peter "covetting" your ride, I'd think you'd be HAPPY to have someone ELSE willing to spread the joy of TeeYay monkey grease. :)
I was truly impressed with the condition of 6688, you guys have done a great job with her so far. Nancy had no problem moving her, and that bingadebongeder was a genuine hoot. I hear rumors that you ripped it out of the panel and stretched it around somebody's neck. Heh.
SelkirkTMO writes:
>>I hear rumors that you ripped it out of the panel and stretched it around somebody's neck. Heh.
Who me? Nahhhhhhhhhhhh.................
-Stef
My my ... that counseling's coming along famously then. Mind if I replace your brake stand with an ME-23 then? :)
Reminds me of what I used to see at see at 81 Street/Central Park West.
Yeah, unfortunately I have to agree with you. I used to post a whole bunch here, but it got boring for me too. Not enough subjects tickled my fancy.
I still do enjoy the London Underground based posts.
I'll be "in town" on Wednesday, for XMAS Transit and Weather Together, 5-11am.
I forgot to mention -- when I took Acela Express back from NYC to BOS this past Wednesday morning, the AE engineer played "jingle bells" with the horn when he passed work crews. Nice touch.
Dear Todd,
Welcome "back!" I love the Jingle Bells story.
To tell the truth, I'll be doing my XMAS morning radio weather from home in Boston. Also Mon 12/30 & Tue 12/21 5-11am and 4-8pm.
Is 12/30 and 12/31 from the city or at home?
Home in Boston, alas. I will be going in to MIT during the midday. The students may be off, but the staff isn't!
Ah, but Universities are wonderful places in the vacation...
- the library's quiet enough to work in
- there's no queue for the Xerox machine
- the canteen's half-empty
- it's so much more relaxed and conductive to work in the way that otherwise only the night can be
the library's quiet enough to work in
Especially if it's locked up tight, as it tends to be IME.
British university libraries tend to be more 24-hours than their U.S. counterparts, surprisingly. I was shocked that MIT does not have a 24-hour library, in fact the MIT main engineering library closes at 7pm on some days. Considering that the engineering students are mostly only awake at night, I don't understand how anyone is supposed to use the library. Maybe that's because the books in there are out of date anyways.
AEM7
I was shocked that MIT does not have a 24-hour library, in fact the MIT main engineering library closes at 7pm on some days.
Yikes! At Leicester our Main Library is open 8:30 am thru midnight and the Clinical Sciences Library (lucky sods) is open 24/7. There is some pressure to further extend the Main Library opening hours, but I doubt it'll happen. It still sucks that it's closed from 12/20 thru 1/2.
Considering that the engineering students are mostly only awake at night, I don't understand how anyone is supposed to use the library.
Archaeology students too!
Maybe that's because the books in there are out of date anyways.
Heh! At least we don't get that problem as much. For Ancient History I took out a book from the Library with a publication date of 1911 (or MCMXI as it was written) and that was still relevant.
Dear Todd,
Welcome "back!" I love the Jingle Bells story.
I love the Jingle Bells story.
How do you do it? I always thought that the Acela only had a two-tone horn :-p
AEM7
One tone, but it's the duration and spacing of the notes that does it. You have to be creative :-)
Hey, if i can play it on TCRT 1267, it can be played anywhere! :)
Was the horn in tune?
I couldn't tell; I was in the "quiet car." :-)
Heard that just now as it came through New Rochelle.
Todd, if your in town for New years Eve let me know
Thats one nice thing about PATH. The door chimes can be interrupted on the first chime, and all of them are of different tones. One conductor played Beethoven's fifth closing down the front and rear zones at Journal Square by reopening twice and closing three times. I have an AMTRAK video of the jingle bells notes being played. I wonder how that would sound on a WABCO AA-1, I'll find out, road training begins Monday. Happy NEw Year Todd
H - I suppose this could be a new event at the rail road-e-o: playing creative songs with the door chimes. Longest song (with no mistakes) wins!
San Francisco gets annual mileage out of the trolley bell serenade. Why not? Maybe we could arrange for a few hot water bottles of varying sizes and some pipework to the airhorns on some Arnines, musical mooing. First operator to get the bag to vibrate at a low frequency would be disqualified. :)
Maybe we mostly talk about NYC subways because that's what we know about.
I could post about the T based on my experiences when I was last riding it regularly.
But then I'd be wondering if they were ever going to extend the Red Line past Harvard, and regretting that the A line got shut down because it didn't have a dedicated right of way like the B, C, and D.
Maybe we mostly talk about NYC subways because that's what we're interested in.
This is SubTalk, after all. Pretty much everyone here (except AEM7) has an interest in the subway. Beyond that, our interests diverge, but the NYC subway is our common ground.
Precisely.
i wish there was more national and non new york rail transit subjects
and posters on this board from all over the world and the usa etc...
""other places besides NYC"
now i dont mind hearing about the nyc rail systems and that is ok but;
it does get quite boring just reading only about nyc systems only.!
Hey guy! Glad to see you're still breathing and all ... I think this place always HAS welcomed various discussions on subways and transit in other places - that's why the site has so many pictures of so many other cities and their systems. Granted, nycsubway.org does tend to draw more people interested in NYC, but I've never noticed a lack of Boston, Chicago or LA here - just a smaller number of PEOPLE. Sounds like "we" need to DO something about that.
But yeah, the non-related conversations and brow-beating and insults sure ain't what this place is about. I'd love to hear about Budapest, Berlinischer and Mockba subways too from folks who do THOSE every day. There's plenty of room for Jello. :)
Where have you been hiding, Salamm?
i have been a bit busy..........long story there...............
oh yea got some shots of you on the D type train
sure wish i could have been on the redbird trip .............
can i e mail them 2 U ??
We cna always hear stories about you getting detained in all the other subway systems.
what does the "cna" in your post supposed to mean ?
along with the rest of your silly little post ............?
Wannabe 1 was just trying out a little joke---no harm and no foul, But one thing has come through here. You are more popular than you thought. Hell, dozens of us missed you. I only hope that if I take a hike for a month or so some of my Subtalk buddies will send out an SOS search for me as well.
thankz you know guy i just got tired of the sam old bull s_______
and the attacks on the unfortunate #4 incident that happened etc...
( very unfortunate ) the (NYC rail only)type posting.
Like i wanted to post on the new mta la gold line ( pasadena-L.A.).. construction/testing and discuss other rail transit systems in other
areas of the couintry / world but when U do that the freaks come out.
not that i do not like to hear about my birthplace at all....
i think you catch my drift .....lol
Fred, if you turn up "absent" we'll see about having Joe Bruno getting your mug on a milk carton. :)
I only hope that if I take a hike for a month or so some of my Subtalk buddies will send out an SOS search for me as well.
No SOS, but we will dispatch a few N trains for you .....
--Mark
Funny, I thought there were more postings now than in the past. And isn't NYC Transit and related subjects what we're supposed to be talking about?
And isn't NYC Transit and related subjects what we're supposed to be talking about?
Again, this is SUBtalk after all. There is nothing wrong with talking about other rail issues here, it does spice it up. But I don't understand how anyone can get upset when people here are mostly talking about the subway, on a NYC subway message board?!
Who knows?
Maybe someone is hoping we'd be talking more about their subway.
We can talk about all the different subway systems. Hell, I've ridden on most of them, but I only care about New York's. I never tire of hearing about it. It is the reason I am on Subtalk. The more New York the better, but if there are those who want to talk about others, fine with me. In fact, I often wonder if we could get a group together for a real trip to test out all the different systems in the US and then a year or so later head for Europe and give that a try. Just a thought.
There ARE other subways, and Dave does seem to invite discussions and sharing. Somehow I suspect talk of other systems is most welcome here. :)
and there are other rail transit systems too .................
& how bout' dis' >>>>>>>>not in NYC !!!!
lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Show and tell, bro! :)
I try i really do but.........they only want to talk about nyc only
dont get me wrong i want to hear bout' nyc but not 100 % all of the
time ..............!
I'm always up for Paris and London. Been there, done those, bought the NOPTO from Ligne 14 (news flash, year 2099: NY MTA installs its first platform door!). Light rail across the Hudson and around the world: yes or no? 100-yr-old subways need to hear what's out there.
Isn't this NYCSubway.org? The reason most of us come here is because we are interested in the subway. I am interested in other things also, and if I had the time I would probably go to message boards that covered those interests. For example, I like the LIRR. So every once in a while when I have time I may go over to that board. I like Amtrak also, but just don't have the time to go over to boards that cover Amtrak, etc, and don't know enough about other railroads to get involved in worthwhile conversation.
My main rail interest is the NYC subway system, and that is why I choose to spend my free computer time here. I often read the posts about other systems, if I am interested in them also, especially if I'd been on those systems. But my knowledge of them may be very limited, even if I had ridden them, so I usually don't post in those threads often, unless I have something valid to say. It's nice that they occasionally show up, because if the topic does wind up here, it is usually something important happening on the other systems. Extension of the Las Vegas Monorail, changing of some Amtrak route, a trolley accident in San Francisco, etc. Time constraints would stop me from reading about events like that otherwise elsewhere.
Remember though the common ground of the majority of the people here is the NYC subway system, that is what drew most of the people who post here to SubTalk, and this is basically a message board about the NY subway system. The other stuff, although interesting to many, is probably secondary, at least on this board.
However although I do enjoy the occasional topics from the other systems, railroads, etc because I don't have the time to go to other boards to read about them, this board is after all a board about the NY subway system. So by all means continue to post here about Amtrak and other rail topics, I'm sure there is an interest here in it, but remember the majority of posts here will probably always be the NYC subway system, that is basically what this board is about. Just like if you go to an Amtrak board, you probably won't find to many posts about the NYC Subway system.
Thank you.
If anyone is interested in talk about NY Subways and off-topic crap at the same time. wander on over to the Rider Diaries. Originally, they would complain about service and the like, but now they have a whole load of off-topic stuff to talk about. It's crazy!
If you wish to go off-topic crazy, go over to the Rider Diaries. They talk plenty of crap there.
There are still plenty of days where over 500 messages are posted. Some days there are fewer messages posted than others. Sometimes there are a lot of messages posted. It all depends on the amount of traffis you have on the website on a given day.
#3 West End Jeff
I'll be in Boston from 12/25 to 12/28, send me an email and maybe we can get togehter and argue politics or something (in a friendly sort of way).
hehe, unfortunately 12-26 to 12-31 I would be in Chicago, I can't stand this town. But if you're here on 12-25 maybe we will get to at least have breakfast before I leave on #449 on 12-26. Let me know how your schedule is.
As for the rest of this thread... it seems that people are interested in NYC Subways. I'm interested in NYC Subways too, but given that I don't ride the system daily, most of the posts make no sense -- for instance, why is a diamond-green-Q so amazing? That sort of posts make no sense to us outsiders. That's why I think it is boring. Funny enough, I've had a few non-NYC people tell me they feel the same way.
I'd like to see more posts on PATCO, more posts on WMATA, and more posts about the MBTA. If posts about Amtrak come up, even better -- that's where I might be able to contribute.
Why do I hang out here? Because people here are cool, unlike in other boards like Rider Diaries. I don't read any other board. They are even boringer.
AEM7
WMATA and Ride-On dominate about half the discussions over on BusTalk. During the strike talks, you could almost always find posts about which WMATA buses were operating where as we work on the WMATA Roster Project. I don't think too many people here ride PATCO alot, which is why it isn't discussed too often. MBTA has a following here but it doesn't seem to be active right now. The Rider Diaries are a bunch of commuters who know a tiny bit about the technical aspects of the trains complaining about service. They are more boring than this. I am not a NYC resident but I still find the discussions here to be of interest to me. When they aren't I just wait until something I like comes along.
A green Q? Do you have a picture?
I think he meant the Green 9 thread.
Nah, I think AEM7 was showing his uninterest in that kind of thread and David was showing his interest in that kind of thread. Both were witty in their posts.
Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
Anyone read this lately?
I don't post as much as I used to, not enough "aesthetics" topics for me to add my 2¢ worth to, but I do hang out an hour or so a day, and sometimes during uploads at work, just to see what's cooking.
wayne
and sometimes during uploads at work, just to see what's cooking.
That's when I do much of my posting, while waiting for something to load, print, etc.
Maybe you should try going to other message boards, after all this is SUBtalk and mainly we talk about NYC Subways. Between Monday - Friday, SubTalk has a high volume of posters, which is good, but on the weekend, that's different, we have less volume, but then again it's always been like that.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Between Monday - Friday, SubTalk has a high volume of posters, which is good, but on the weekend, that's different, we have less volume, but then again it's always been like that.
The funny thing that that proves is that many of us post from work.....scary isn't it.
I post in the morning before I go to school and when I come home from school. Hopefully I will be scheduled to take a computer class next semester and I will be able to post from school.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Oh, you were the kind of student I got a REAL kick out of when I was teaching computers. Please, please be kind to the underpaid scum at the front of the room who can't see your screen.
Please, please be kind to the underpaid scum at the front of the room who can't see your screen
But why? If this country has such a dysfunctional education system that kids who already knows how to use a computer is put through a compulsory computer class, then the scum who represents the education authority deserves all s/he gets. A much more useful use of AcelaExpress2005's time would be sitting in a database class or maybe a programming class. This country is big enough for that kind of consolidation to happen (i.e. kids who are at the same level being taught at their level), but people involved in education seem to have their heads stuck up their ass and don't realize that they are just wasting kids time if they are not developing the kids' individual talents.
AEM7
... people involved in education seem to have their heads stuck up their ass and don't realize that they are just wasting kids time if they are not developing the kids' individual talents.
Hopefully we're not spending too much time educating baby goats, although we can all probably take a lesson from them in constructive head-butting :-)
You do have a point, one which I appreciate from various perspectives: that of a teacher (which I was many years ago, and continue to be on occasion), a student (which I was even longer ago, and still am from time to time, courtesy of my employer), and a parent (now and forever). What I would remind you is that there are many ways of developing talent, and one of those is to ensure that the students have a solid foundation in the basics. On the assumption that our student in question already has a reasonably solid foundation (which I suspect is a reasonable assumption in Acela's case), it is not unreasonable to expect that this student can serve as a peer mentor, learning something about the art of teaching in the process as well as helping his fellow students master the basic skills. In addition, it would not surprise me if he actually does learn a few things that may be necessary as a prerequisite to follow-on classes offered by his school, even if they are as mundane as basic access procedures for his school's computer network.
Because of the nature of classroom education, it is very difficult to spend a large amount of time focused on the individual needs of one particular student, since doing so means that time is taken away from the others in the class. This does not mean that talent cannot be developed, though, since much of what is needed to fuel the spark of genius is a solid foundation in a wide variety of subjects. I am quite thoroughly convinced that over-specialization in education at an early age is not good for a person, and by extension for society as a whole. Breadth of experience and perspective is important; a healthy society depends on people understanding their relationship to others and the interdependence of all of society's members. So too is there a relationship between science, language, literature, history... the list goes on. My own degrees are in history and library science, but my primary career has evolved from a computer tech to a programmer to a project manager, with a detour into tech writing and a secondary career in the retail industry (hobby shop) along the way. My liberal arts background has stood me in good stead throughout my life, giving me the perspective to understand how to manage my career and how to manage those who work for me today. I have seen far too many young people who have been focused on one talent, to the virtual exclusion of all others, for so long that - while they may be the very best in their field of expertise - they are at best dysfunctional in society, totally clueless (and usually uncaring) about how their behavior affects others and about how to survive in the event of a major disruption in their chosen career.
Food for thought.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Apologies for the harsh verbage earlier.
What I would remind you is that there are many ways of developing talent, and one of those is to ensure that the students have a solid foundation in the basics...
I think that is a cop-out, actually. It almost always serves no purpose to spend time in a basic class to reconsolidate foundations unless the kid in question is really flakey in basics but has lots of potential. Kids who are interested, when dumped into an advanced classes, will spend their own time catching up on the basics.
I do think the peer-mentor approach is a good one, but it really is for classroom management more than for individual development. I do believe that classroom management is necessary from a small-town, resource-constrained school point of view, but in a place like NYC, there are probably enough kids with an advanced understanding of computers to justify one of the schools running a fast-track computer programme for all the students in the area. If this means they can be exempted from school on Fridays (having taken care of all their other requirements Mon-Thurs) and attend the computer class on Fridays, it should be done. By the same token, musically talented individuals can attend a music college on Fridays. These are things that the education authorities are not doing in the large cities, even though opportunities are available, because they are "authorities". They think they know what is the best for the kids. They don't.
You might have noticed already, I have really big issues with authority -- whether that be transit authorities or education authorities.
since much of what is needed to fuel the spark of genius is a solid foundation in a wide variety of subjects...
I, too, went through the liberal arts route. Not because I believe that it was good for me, but for social reasons: lots more girls at liberal arts colleges. However, I have discovered that my liberal arts education has actually helped me a lot throughout my career -- I am able to see other people's perspectives, challenge my own assumptions, and integrate different fields to produce analysis that are not in standard textbooks.
However, I don't think this is particularly relevant when discussing Acela's computer class -- if you mean that Acela should be given the opportunity to dissect Macs, PCs, and unix-boxes, then I would agree with you. If you mean that Acela should spend more time doing colonial history just because he already knows the computer class, I might possibly agree with you (as long as he is exempted from the computer class and takes a different subject of his choosing). But if you mean he must sit through the class and mentor other people or learn other basic things like how to access the network (that he could probably learn in 10 minutes by asking a peer), then I think either (a) the school is ill-equipped resourcewise to deal with kids like him, which is reasonable if it is in Central PA where there are no funds and little consolidation of kids geographiaclly, or (b) the school "authority" thinks they know best, and the are wrong.
AEM7
You guys reminded me of something which I had forgotten, since it had been so long since I've taught. The education authorities DIDN'T know what they were doing. They put the Acelas in with complete newbies, in classes of twenty or more, and expected me to keep them all riveted with fascination. Small-group work and making Acela help the newbies goes just so far and wastes Acela's time, which, given that he's paying tuition and not getting paid to be a teacher, he doesn't have much of. So, yes, Acela needs to be put in a small tutorial, to tear down CPU's and write operating systems, and not be sitting in classes. The schools won't figure that out anytime soon.
How quickly we forget. Right after 9/11, SubTalk became very "un-boring" with thousands of OT posts. But they got so bitter amd contentious that webmaster Dave suspended Subtalk for several months. Is that what we want again?
SubTalk became very "un-boring" with thousands of OT posts. But they got so bitter amd contentious that webmaster Dave suspended Subtalk for several months.
The reason Subwalk was subspended was because of several posts that were threatening. Interesting topics do not have to be threatening.
Subtalk also nearly died when E_DOG started racial threads consistently. I didn't enjoy Subtalk all that much then, but I think that racial issues are interesting and discussing them here, within reason, and within context of the transit service, is what makes Subtalk more interesting than any other transit discussion groups.
AEM7
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14991-2002Dec19.html
I was on the 9 train yesterday and to my suprise, there was a green 9 on the rollsign.
I think you saw an upside down 6 sign. What was on the other side of the roll? I take it this was a side sign.
Thats exactly what he saw. Maybe the rollsign was hard to turn and when the personnel got to that upside down 6, they said, "Good Enough".
Te entire roll could have been installed upside down rendering a green 6 to look like an upside down green 9.
I've ridden a 6 train on the 1/9 line.
WHAT?! I really don't think it was a green 9 rollsign and as WMATA said, it was probably a upside down 6 rollsign; it happens.
A tip of my cap to all of you Sea Beach fans who just awakened ala Rip Van Winkle and came to the front of the line. FINALLY. For awhile I thought I was the 21st Century version of John the Baptist crying out in the wilderness. You guys have restored my faith in the righteousness of the real Subtalk fans, the Sea Beach fanatics. We must not rest until we have our train back as the Broadway Express, over the Manny B and express down 4th Avenue on its way to Coney Island.
Next stop on OUR train-----20th Avenue. All aboard?
How about a Sea Beach only reunion or party or something? With so many fanatics of Sea Beach, we must all get together.
That would really be great. A Sea Beach fan club reunion. Why the hell didn't I think of that? If we could get the dozen or so Subtalkers who love the Sea Beach as we do maybe we could plan a trip and work out an schedule of events. Two things we have to do for sure. One, we have to raid the TA and give them the what for, and second, we have to invite Brighton Express Bob for some comic relief.
December 1932 through the moment of me typing this post... However, it doesn't run today, as it's a Sunday. Yes... the Broad-Ridge Spur turns 70! Are we smiling and happy? Do we care? I do.
From what I know, the spur WAS intended to be tied into what is now the PATCO High-Speed Line, and actually was part of the original Bridge Line to Broadway Camden. I don't believe trains ever ran from Fern Rock to Haddonfield or Lindenwold, though. And, since the connecting track between Chinatown and 8th Street was severed, they never will.
Under the operations as just "the spur", the Broad-Ridge Spur has undergone many changes. I've no idea how many times they altered service, but it was originally used as a shortlne from Girard. Peak period trains were run to Erie (and some to Fern Rock) as local service. There have been many suspensions/reinstatings of Sturday service (thank The Gallery Mall for keeping it active in the last couple decades), but no Sunday service in who-knows-how-long.
RailWorks saw a new breed of Spur service. Trains were operated between Fern Rock and 8th Street as express trains, with an additional stop at North Philadelphia (and the end of the stop at Spring Garden on the Ridge). Of course, with all three regular service levels using Fern Rock, even the new loop couldn't handle it, and there was much overcrowding, and lengthy delays.
1997 restored Ridge Spur service twice. In October, addressing the increased student commuter base at Temple University (as if they didn't have ENOUGH ways to deal with that *coughRouteCcough*), they returned Ridge trains to their Girard shortline/Erie (Fern Rock) local operations, and added North Philadelphia as a stop for Express trains... in December, they returned to Ridge express operations (and eliminated the extra stop for the regular express), apparently after much public outcry against it. However, to avoid delays in Fern Rock, they turned back all AM peak, midday, and PM peak trains at Olney, only sending extra service to Fern Rock to hit the yard and shops. Of course, once the express has ceased running (i.e. Weeknights, Saturdays), the Ridge takes up service to Fern Rock. However, this causes for slight confusion. The marker light system forces all 8th Street-Fern Rock trains to the Local tracks (leaving Fern Rock, and going north from Fairmount, Girard, or Erie). So, southbound trains must ride through with the Giradr-8th Street sign on, while northbounds use Girard-8th Street until the Fairmount stop, then Fern Rock-Walnut or Olney-Walnut until they clear the switch north of Erie, then back to Girad-8th Street. So, onlookers at North Philadelphia may be confused as to just which train is coming (although, express trains often sound the horn when passing through, to avoid confusion; the A and B Market-Frankford Line trips also do this when passing skipped stops), since BOTH levels of srvice will be using green lights.
What looms in the future for the Broad-Ridge Spur? Well, some speculate that it will become the south end of the Roosevelt Boulevard subway (or else, it will take Fern Rock, while the Boulevard subway takes on Express trips to/from Walnut-Locust). Hopefully, they will at least alter the ID systems. Perhaps add in an express track setting for Fern Rock-8th Street, or at least one for Olney-8th Street (which they never used, despite having unused parts of the destination sign itself (Snyder and South, but no settings on the dial to use them), as well as an Erie-Pattison sign and a Local setting for Special trains (this might be to keep the signals south of Walnut-Locust from allowing the train to just breeze by (in other words, the train runs Local until Walnut, then picks up the Express tracks; I've seen it before, and it could make a decent regular service))) Maybe, they just might add the stops at Chinatown and Fairmount on the Ridge to the Ridge Spur timetable. (If you read it, you'll see that they skip from 8th Street straight to Girard)
Well that's my 70 year rant on the 70th anniversary of the Broad-Ridge Spur. Have fun! Keep riding!
Thanks for the history lesson!
---Brian
You are welcome!
Something ELSE I forgot... It was 5 years ago to this very day that they eliminated the Ridge Service as a Girard shortline and Erie/Fern Rock local to restore it to the current state of operations. December 22, 1997 is the date of the reprinted BSL timetable that included the change (although trains were running as Ridge express as early as Friday, December 19th, 1997; and of course, the change didn't affect the Spur until the 23rd, because SEPTA doesn't run the Spur on Sundays. However, for anything running on Sundays at all, that is when the schedule changes take effect, and the Spur is always listed under the Broad Street Line, which runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Except from Midnight to 5 AM, when they use bus service in place of the trains; this applies to Market-Frankford Line also (and makes more sense there, since nobody living alongside the El wants to hear it when they're trying to sleep, but who can hear the BSL underground at night from a second or thrid-story room? Even at Fern Rock, where curve screeching occurs, and the trains are outside, it doesn't make much noise.
The 2000 and 2001 versions of the Jersey Mike-organized SubTalk SEPTA excursion (the 2002 version starts on the 9:28 Wilmington Local at Market East on Friday Dec 27) both managed to ride the Ridge Ave spur. A cab ride in 2001 allowed these two photos of the southbound BSS express track and the Ridge Ave spur.
Nice shots! However, I can't tell if the first one is part of the crossovers north of Girard, or part of the Spur junction. I also wonder just what the Ridge alignment was like when it first opened, as the express tracks were added long after the Spur was opened.
The Bridge line opened to Broadway/Camden on June 7, 1936. At that time it and the Ridge Spur were two separate services both ending at 8th and market, although starting on 8/8/43 they were through-routed Sundays and evenings. The line to 16th/15th Streets opened on 2/15/53 and was serviced by Bridge trains, although the following 9/13 the Ridge-Bridge (hey, that's catchy!) through service Sundays and evening was restored (and shuttles would run from 16th to 8th).
Then on August 27, 1968, The Ridge and Bridge services were separated, the Ridge Spur would now have its own station at 8th and Market. On December 28, 1968 the bridge line closed. PATCO opened from 16th-15th Streets to Lindenwold on January 4, 1969.
Hmmm... I wonder when and how the terminals on PATCO were added. I only know that Broadway was first, Haddonfield came later, then Lindenwold, and that when Woodcrest opened, it replaced Haddonfield as a short-turn point (hence the third track between the stations) . Never even SEEN a Ferry Avenue trip.
I'm heading into the city this morning to look at apartments. I'm not sure how much time I'll have for railfanning, but I'll be sure to fire off a few shots of my digital camera. I'm planning on driving to Denville now to catch a MidTown Direct into NYP. I hope to see some you up at the railfan window...
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Lucky you.
For me, it's an R3 from Fernwood to Center City (30th Street, Suburban Station or Market East), then an R7 to Trenton, THEN the NJT NECL to NYP... fortunately, I only need cash for the NJT trains and anything in NY itself; I have passes for SEPTA.
Well at least Septa has railfan windows whereas the Comet IV's do not. Also, I had to drive 1.5 hours to get to Denville, so riding two Septa lines is more fun than having to drive 1.5 hours....
You're looking to get an apartment in Manhattan? Good luck. Let me know if you get a closet for UNDER $800. ;)
I looked at something a bit bigger than a closet for a bit more than that amount of money. But it is only one "big closet" in a 3 bedroom apt and the rest of the apt is awesome! I hope I get it!
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
I think the below BusTalk thread is important for many of us SubTalkers to be aware of also, due to the rash of the Virus emails that have been sent to many SubTalk/BusTalkers recently. These emails are not being sent by the people they appear to be sent by. Some SubTalk/BusTalker's computer is infected, and this individual's computer's virus is picking up our email addresses from his address book, and using them to send the virus to others.
It is not actually using our email addreses, it just appears to be. Just read the below link, and this will make a bit more sense.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=61545
That's the reason I do NOT show my e-mail here.
I stopped posting my email address here after I got some of those emails about 6 months ago, purportedly from other people here.
How do we know this isn't your computer spreading a virus using your name?
Probably for the same reason that you know it's not mine spreading it. As someone pointed out, the virus emails are originating from someone with a Verizon internet connection who has us in his/her address book. One of our other SubTalkers has reported receiving several of these emails from me... except that I don't have a Verison connection, and I'm not infected (and indeed couldn't be, since this particular virus requires Microsoft products to spread the infection - products that I am thankfully free of, since I have a Mac with absolutely zero Micros**t products on it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That one is one of many random titles used by a worm virus called "klez.h" ... it grabs email addresses from WEB documents out of your browser cache and uses a randomly selected email address as the "origin" ... in other words, the person whose name is the "sender" is not the actual SENDER, but a victim. Someone who visits the site IS infected and sometimes you can spot the victim from the "reply to" address. But yes, people who receive Klez get it because their email address is visible here. I get dozens of them a day but ANY antivirus will smack it down in an instant. It's a WELL KNOWN virus. Simply means that some folks aren't USING their antivirus software or haven't kept it up to date. This one's been around for almost a year now.
Sorry Dave for once again talking viruses, but it seems as though folks don't understand what's going on and are apt to point the finger at the WRONG person and possibly flame them - only reason I'm typing this ...
Sorry, but I felt it could only have been asked here. I'm interested in what software this is exactly? I mean, is there a way to get it?
The original version of this web board is called WebBBS and you can download it here:
http://awsd.com/scripts/webbbs/
One feature about SubTalk that was present when I started using it, but is now missing, is the number of new responses for each thread posted on the compressed main list. It was a real timesaver when reviewing threads to see if new messages have been posted.
Really? I wonder why is was discontinued?
Thank you, I am much obliged David.
I just got back from my ride from 69th St. to Frankford terminal and back. The new Frankford terminal is progressing nicely. I just hope it's ready by the esimated completion date, which is???
I noticed on the Western leg of the El, 30th to 69th st, the new "cab" signals are installed on the right of way and instead of a green signal as clear, it's kind of like a "lunar white".
Anyone have any comments on that? Also Frankford depot is teaming with New Flyer buses...
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
I rode the Market Street "El" in Philadelphia on April 13, 2001. One part of it reminded me of the IRT Corona-Flushing line in Queens. It was fun riding on a different subway system. The new cars have a great railfan seat. You don't have that in New York.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually the first couple of seats on the left are great to look out the front window. Even though the train is OPTO,no full width cab is needed because of the CCTV system. On the Broad St. Line, we have full width cabs because no camera system was ever installed in the B-IV cars.
Glad you had fun with our sysytem Some day I'll come up and railfan with you guys a check out some or NY's system.
Chuck Greene
You'll find the various parts of the New York City subway system quite interesting. If you ride the Rockaway segment of the "A" train in Queens, you get to see houses on stilts while the train goes through a marsh.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually, the cab signals are also now operating between 30th and 15th (since a couple weekends ago).
I'm particularly happy about this new stretch, because it was always a tad annoying how the train had to go really slow starting down the hill into the Schuylkill river tunnel in both directions. The signal timing always seemed overly restrictive - especially eastbound.
Now with cab signals, the trains can fly down and up through the tunnel at pretty much full speed. Yippee!
All of the equipment has been installed for a while now, and earlier this fall, they were shutting down the line on weekends and converting sections of track (between crossovers) to active cab signals every other weekend or so.
But now, with the line half-converted, they've inexplicably stopped the conversions until spring 2003... Anyone know why?
That's a good question. I saw signs today saying that El shutdown weekends are postponed until sfter the holidays. And, yes , our train flew through the tunnel under the river, also. I did notice
a lot of slow operation eastbound from 63rd to 46th, though. Also, at one point heading toward Frankford, out T/O stopped before he entered a station (I forgot where), and got out of his cab and walked the length of our first car. Then he got back in and took off again. (He had a green signal all the time this occured).
Chuick Greene
Overly restrictive? Are you nuts? That is like a 30 degree downward slope and there is only one timer. Many TO's would creep forward to get the timer at the bottom of the hill to run and then notch it up to 8 while still halfway down the hill.
Overly restrictive? Are you nuts? That is like a 30 degree downward slope and there is only one timer. Many TO's would creep forward to get the timer at the bottom of the hill to run and then notch it up to 8 while still halfway down the hill.
Well, that's exactly what annoyed me before. Perhaps then the timer was just poorly designed. It just seemed silly that they would have nothing but a red light in front of them until they got halfway down the hill, then all of a sudden it would be green all the way.
I guess it was designed a bit better going the other direction, where it was a series of yellow-red sequential timers. But even that seemed to limit the train to an unecessarily slow speed.
Regardless, it seems that SEPTA agrees that it was too slow before, because the speed limits are clearly much higher with the new cab signals. Trains really fly thtough those stretches now.
Agreed. I noticed the trains now seem to take higher speed eastbound between 40th Street and 34th Street... and I am also pleased with the elimination of speed restriction going under the river... but the trains sometimes slow up between 22nd Street and 19th Street (Subway-Surface Trolley stops), and increase speed east of 19th. Still kinda slow between 52nd Street and 46th Street, unexplainable. The trains take the curves near 40th Street cruising, and breeze through the crossover swiftly... though I've yet to see the crossover used for anything.
The crossover becomes useful when the service begins to shut down for the weekend replacement of the El (which is supposed to start sometime next year - I think summer '03 was the last guess I heard). The trains will run from Frankford to 40th with buses continuing west from there, using Chestnut/Walnut and (I believe) stopping only at the intersections with El stations. SEPTA's initial thought was to bus from 30th, possibly ending westbound service at 34th and starting eastbound at 30th to balance the loads, but with all the congestion in that area, opted for 40th (also useful if the subway-surface is out, since a direct connection, rather than a trolley-bus-el transfer, can be had there). Not to say that 40th's area is any less congested, but...
I believe the el outages are off for a while for two reasons - one, to allow ATC work to catch up on the east end, and two, to avoid outages during the Regional Rail catenary work between 30th and Market East (when the El would be a good alternative for train riders). ?
On the grade timer subject, a truer picture of the grades under the river tunnel can be had by a ride on the subway-surface, which still has a number of grade timers in place for the whole grade (down and up). I say 'still' since the proposed CBTC system for the s-s will no doubt remove the signals at some point.
SEPTA has begun installing the caissons for the new support structure for the El at 60th and Market. They're reinforced concrete columns about 15 feet high. They've put up about 5 or 6. Station work begins 2004.
Wow, that's great news. I didn't see them , from above , because I was on the train. Next time I go down , I always park at 69th st., I'll drive my car(van) down that way to see the new construction.
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
You may want to park nearby and walk. Market Street is all but impassible by car between 63rd and 59th Sts. Only two blocks of it are open to traffic.
They're directly under the el structure itself. You really can't even see them from platform level.
You may want to park nearby and walk. Market Street is all but impassible by car between 63rd and 59th Sts. Only two blocks of it are open to traffic.
I took some pictures today - I'll post them somewhere soon.
Thanks, Rich . I'll be interested in seeing what type of structure they came up with and any pictures of future work will be fun to see,also.
Chuck Greene
I noticed that the French TGV's have only 1 pantograph up and that's on the rear power unit, and there's a cable that extends for the rear power unit over the roof to the lead power unit to power it, Why wasn't the feature put into affect with the Acela Express since it supposed to be a American TGV?
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Why wasn't the feature put into affect with the Acela Express since it supposed to be a American TGV?
Because that feature is shit. The reason French TGVs have only one panto is because le Frogs can't figure out how to engineer a train such that the first pantograph does not create a resonance in the wires that causes the rear panto to get caught and get ripped off. The German engineers that built the Acela figured out how to do that (maybe this is why in some curvey areas the catenaries are closer together -- but I think there may be other reasons for that), and thus there is no need for a high-voltage line on the train.
In short, the Acela is better engineered than the TGV.
AEM7
Yea, but which system had to be shut down twice due to shittiness?
Three times. In 1963, when the TGV was in its experimental stages, a turbine explosion caused testing to be suspended indefinitely for some 2 years. By the time testing resumed, they had already decided to use electric power. When the first-generation electric TGV entered squadron service in 1981, system shutdown occured another two times: once due to axle cracks on the power cars, and once due to signalling anomolies.
AEM7
Yea, but which system had to be shut down twice due to shittiness?
And which system is basically just one line with no expansion planned, and which system is part of a nationwide HSR network?
The German engineers also figured out - about 15 years ago - how to run their Acelas (in Germany, they are called the InterCity Express or the ICE Train) and ordinary streetcars on the same tracks without any probems to date. Of course, our backwards Federal Railway Administration, possibly staffed by personnel who should have retired long ago and who probably have never even heard of this great accomplishment, cooped up in their dusty Washngton, DC offices, flatly state this is impossible and cannot be done.
how to run their Acelas (in Germany, they are called the InterCity Express or the ICE Train) and ordinary streetcars on the same tracks without any probems to date..
without any probems, except the one time when the streetcar-wheels they had been using for the Intercity Express fractured, the train derailed, creamed itself aganist a bridge, bringing the bridge down, which then squeezed the cars like a tube of toothpaste making goo out of the 32 kids from Hamburg that was going on a field trip (they were unlucky -- just happened to be in that car that was squeezed by the bridge).
See here:
http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/reports/eschede/eschede.htm
http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/icecrash.htm
I'll take a GG-1 any day.
AEM7
I'm well aware of that unfortunate Acela accident, but it had absolutely nothing to do with "streetcar wheels." That statment in itself makes your response laughable, childish and very irresponsible. The cause was attributed to possible metal fatigue or failure to change wheels in a timely manner. To make a false statement like that, especially after you had posted the full text of a number of articles related to this unfortunate incident, and then compare the Acela/InterCity Express to the outdated (but very reliable in its day) GG-1, leads me to the opinion that you might be in cahoots with the archaic Federal Railway Administration..... Again, I state, there has never been an accident, to date, involving joint the railway and streetcar operation in Germany. I've been to see this operation numerous times - it works. I suggest that before you post any additional unfounded remarks you check your facts like a prudent person with a bare minimum of common sense would. And, IntercityExpress trains do not use streetcar wheels. If they do, I challenge you to prove it.
And, IntercityExpress trains do not use streetcar wheels
I suggest you look up the keywords "composite rubber wheel ICE" or "vibration rubber wheel ICE" in google or something. If you knew the history of high-speed rail wheel development, you would also understand why it is necessary for ICE to use rubber wheels, and not necessary for TGV to use them, and why they caused the Eschede derailment.
Now I've given you some directions, do your homework and find out why I am right. Labelling me as "childish" doesn't exactly make me want to write a long explanation as to why what I say is backed by technical research.
AEM7
I did state, and continue to state, these are not "streetcar wheels," as you so clearly stated. For one thing, streetcar wheels are much smaller. The use of a rubber sandwich insert, common since the PCC days, in a wheel does not make it a "streetcar wheel." It makes the composition of both types of wheels similar in and of themselves, but actual streetcar wheels are not used on high speed trains nor vice-versa, and to make a false statement stating such and deliberately wishing to lead others astray is wrong. And childish. And again, there has never been a streetcar / railway accident to date.
The use of a rubber sandwich insert, common since the PCC days, in a wheel does not make it a "streetcar wheel." It makes the composition of both types of wheels similar in and of themselves, but actual streetcar wheels are not used on high speed trains nor vice-versa
So, have you answered your own question? In Germany, track-sharing occurs, requiring the track to be generic and not engineered to fit the train. In France, the track is dedicated, thus the track can be engineered to fit the train. Without going into economics for a moment, do you see how the German track is so much more difficult to build because it has to carry heavy coal trains, streetcars, and high speed trains? That means the track has to be stiff (to carry the coal), but it has also got to be precisely aligned (to carry the high speed traffic). The solution: fit streetcar wheels to high speed trains, so that they can absorb some of the vibrations.
It's an engenius solution in itself, but it does mean additional maintenance costs on the fleet, and in this case obviously the maintenance was not done properly (very unusual for Germany). Now, if the coach bodies had been FRA-compliant, it is likely that the bridge would not have caused the level of destruction that it did to the lightweight, flimsy European coaches. However, FRA-compliant coaches are also very heavy, and streetcar wheels would probably not have cut it. But then, the vibration may not have been so bad to require the use of streetcar wheels.
The German approach, where the infrastructure costs are divided over a much greater number of trains, is economically sound. However, the German approach of using lightweight trains is not proven, in terms of either safety or costs. A mixed-traffic railroad, like the Amtrak Northeast Corridor, is economically sound, unless the traffic on the corridor can support two separate dedicated rights-of-way. The cost of making subway/transit/high-speed rail cars FRA part 123 compliant is very small in comparison to the cost of building a dedicated right of way. The cost of building a vehicle lighter and trading additional maintenance for a lighter vehicle is at best marginal.
My verdict: mixed traffic FRA railroad is economically the best for most circumstances, regardless of what the signalling technology can offer.
AEM7
Thank you for your response. I am not disagreeing with what you have stated; my original response to your posting about the accident was that they were not "streetcar wheels" as you stated, even if they were a sandwich design. The sandwich design may have evolved from an original streetcar wheel design, but to call them "streetcar wheels" is a misnomer. It is true that European trains are built more flimsy, and in an accident such as the one you mention do tend to self-destruct. However, their track maintenance and overall maintenance standards in general are far superior to just about anything in North America. It would be, in my opinion, in the best interests of American railroads and transit systems for them to study and utilize systems from Europe which have proven themselves. However, it appears no one is interested in copying or learning from the Europeans. Perhaps American pride comes into play here, but in reality it is, I believe, stupidity. If you can make something work with someone else's help, why not? And they don't normally overbuild there. Most European railroad and transit systems are simple and workable. A very recent perfect example of American overbuild is what "con"-sultants did to the Newark City Subway - it wasn't broken so they really "fixed" it. If had common sense had prevailed, the PCCs could have been kept with proper rehab, such as in Boston, Kenosha, Philadelphia or San Francisco, but instead they made the line into a slower high-tech system that really wasn't needed for such a simple trolley operation. Now NJ Transit offers 6-miniute rush-hour headways; before it was every two minutes. I really would like to know ridership figures today vs. the PCC days......
Newark City Subway ... ridership figures today vs. the PCC days.
From what I've been told, it's actually up... by how much I don't know. I'm a bit surprised, given the service frequency, but I have no reason to question my source.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the larger carrying capacity of the new LRVs compared to the PCCs almost certainly accounts for their ability to handle increased usage with one third of the streetcar frequency. On the other hand, I doubt that usage is up too much otherwise they'd have to move to two car trains or bring the frequency up from once every six minutes. Personally, I'm disappointed that they didn't retain the PCCs...
-Robert King
they were not "streetcar wheels" as you stated
Okay, fair enough, I'm sorry. I admit that my using the term "streetcar wheels" had been partially delibrate sensationalism. In the same way that I say "flimsy" coaches when in fact I could not lift an European traincar and just fling it like a piece of paper. I guess I should watch my using these emotionally loaded words.
AEM7
Thank you. Emotion should never play a part in posting, especially when referring to such a terrible accident.
The national rail system is a rough and tumble world where certain safety features are necessary. It is a world where safety proofing the right of way would cost 100 times more than safety proofing the cars. The American system is a system designed to haul freight. In europe they have nothing even approaching an American style freight train. This raises the stakes in potential rail collisions so passenger vehicles must meet special standards when put on the same system with these freight trains. You cannot ever eliminate accidents. Whenver there is an accident in Europe people die, usually it is more than just a few people. In this country we go years between passenger rail fatalities despite having accidents every month or so.
The American system is a system designed to haul freight. In europe they have nothing even approaching an American style freight train. This raises the stakes in potential rail collisions so passenger vehicles must meet special standards when put on the same system with these freight trains.
If a passenger train collides with a freight train, it's not going to make much of a difference whether the freight is a European-style train with 50 cars or an American-style train with 150 cars.
Nor will carbody design matter either. The Europeans figured this out years ago and started down the road of cab signalling, ATC, PTC, etc
All of Amtrak's recent train/train collisions were all 100% avoidable, had cab signalling been installed on those lines. The metrolink accident this summer wouldn't have happened, had cab signalling been installed.
The easiest way to survive an accident is to not have one
Cabsignaling don't do shit if train on adjacent track derails or fouls. or if train with Cabsignal derails and hits a catenary support.
The metrolink accident does support the tier 1 and 2 collision standard. so did the crash worthiness of AEM 7 when a piece of non shunting track equipment was hit near Philladelphia a few years back totaling one of the engines but , I believe engineer even survived.
so did the crash worthiness of AEM 7 when a piece of non shunting track equipment was hit near Philladelphia a few years back totaling one of the engines but, I believe engineer even survived.
Right. Then there was in UK, the Great Heck accident, where an American-built class 66 was totalled by a head-on collision at a combined speed of 160mph, where the engineer died but the assistant engineer survived. Only those who have lived in Europe will appreciate what FRA has done for railroad safety in the USA.
As for carriage construction -- the figures speak for themselves when you compare death toll in the flimsy value-engineered coaches in Europe in recent years against the more robust designs of yesteryear. For instance, in the Paddington accident, the majority of those who died were in a 1997-built DMU and not in the 1975-built HST. Those that died on board the HST died from a diesel fire. Those who died on board the DMU died from the aluminium bodyshell bursting open and throwing passengers onto the track and then grated over by the remainder of the train. If you visit that accident scene and see the seats that are strewn across the tracks, you will think twice about doing away the FRA standard.
Incidentally, you can show that had automatic train stop been installed on the layout at Paddington, if the engineer had passed the red signal at a full 55mph, he would still have fouled the path of the express. The impact would not have been so severe, but it was not avoidable without full automatic train control.
AEM7
The Metrolink accident would have happened whether cab signals were there or not.
The problem was, the BNSF engineer had his head up his ass and passed TWO red signals!!!
He passed a Approach without slowing down and the next signal (red) without stopping, not two red signals.
According to local newspapers, they stated two red signals. Which is normal for the area the trains were in....the first red signal is to hold trains back away from two busy highway crossings IF the diverging route (Olive Sub) is lined up. The news reports stated he passed the yellow signal at full speed, the first red at 46 miles an hour and about 20 through the red right short of the collision point with the Metrolink train. If you were in the area (as I do live ten minutes away) you'd be familiar with the layout.
Cab signaling is more expensive than upgrades to rolling stock design. Safer rolling stock is the least cost avoider.
Cab signaling is more expensive than upgrades to rolling stock design. Safer rolling stock is the least cost avoider.
Yes, but PTC has other benefits other than avoidence of crashes. Safer rolling stock is necessary independently of any changes in signalling design. Better signal design is not an excuse for flimsier rolling stock; better rolling stock is not an excuse for not engineering the signals to a high standard.
AEM7
But to require it for a new or exsting passenger lines will raise the startup cost above acceptable levels.
But to require it for a new or exsting passenger lines will raise the startup cost above acceptable levels.
hehe, capital planning is always an interesting subject. My take on PTC is this: it's not necessary until the traffic require it. If the traffic is mostly freight, and the train frequencies are high enough to need the capacity benefits of PTC, it should be installed. Safety alone is never a good enough reason to install PTC, but capacity usually is. The safety benefits are marginal.
So yes, heavy rolling stock should be required where there is mixed traffic, for safety reasons; PTC is only necessary where the capacity required is higher than that available from conventional (e.g. dark, or CTC signalling). On the other hand, to hack CTC just to increase the capacity by a sliver almost never makes sense; more sensible to go over to PTC as soon as CTC starts hitting the ceiling.
AEM7
First, the Chase MD wreck was a lot less deadly than many similar accidents in the UK and Europe, which actually occured at lower speeds. Three of the deadly accidents in the UK included a sinple vehidle vs train, broken rail derailment and a switch point derailment. These happen constantly here in this country, yet people rarely die.
Second, most accidents will be things like grade crossing accidents, heat-kink derailments, vandalism derailments, loading guage incursions, loose rolling freight cars, etc. A full on collision with a freight train/locomotive will be less deadly and a class 2 accident will probably not be deadly at all.
one Panthograph is sufficient for power draw, but with our electrification we have Phase breaks and Phase gaps. so the Acela's high voltage could not be trainlined over the cars as it would create a dead short at those phase breaks.
Don't the French system have phase breaks too? There are surely electronics that can deal with this kind of situation. I think the real reason is that they finally worked out how to make two pantos up simutaniously without causing electrical and physical resonance problems.
AEM7
Because Amtrak wanted to flexability to remove/add cars freely from the trainsets. I have seen video clips of 8 car ACELA express trains.
Which is a hoot, because you can't split an acela in a yard anyway, bcause the interconnections are too complex.
Of course, with typical US RR maintenance ("We'll fix it aftter it falls apart"), splittable trains are good. If you've got a proper maintenance system, like the Europeans (and apparently the NYCTA, since they order drawbared sets now too), you don't need to split trains up as much.
In any case, the reason the Acelas don't trainline the pan is because the current draw is too heavy to run two locomotives off one pan. The TGV, since the locomotives are lower powered, can do this, and it improves pan tracking considerably. regardless of catenary design, the pan sets up a wave in the wire, and at the high speeds the TGV runs at, this wave can disrupt another pan on the wire if it's too close. Since the Acela runs at slow speeds anyway, this isn't a concern.
A happy, healthy and prosperous New York for all my friends at SubTalk, and for all your loved ones... :)
I LIKE IT!!!!
Wow, a Standard with the left window glass still in place!
Paul, did you mean to type New York?
Wow, a Standard with the left window glass still in place!
Yup, and the original single piece storm window.
Given the fact that this is the holiday season, let's take the time to share what you plan to do this year.
I'm traveling to Boston to do some railfanning up there. I've been to Beantown a bunch of times, but never got to check out the subway. I figure this will keep me busy, my ex-wife took off for France with our son in April and I've barely heard from him since. I figure doing something to keep me busy will be better than sitting around the house feeling sorry for myself.
Piggo
Working... off Tuesday PM and Wednesday, but with my wife, younger son, and two of the dogs out of town for the week (back home in North Carolina) it will be rather quiet, just me and one dog in the house. Hopefully we can sneak down to NC next weekend for a few days though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, it sounds as if everyone in your family gets back to North Carolina but you!
They do... but since I have this nagging obligation called employment, I don't have much choice in the matter. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well. We have Mon, Tue & Wed off and I have Thur & Fri as vacation days. So I'll be coming home (NYC) to visit the family. Of course I be on the subways and buses, but I'll probably spend most of my transitfanning on the buses - specifically NYBS' GMDD fishbowls.
Hope you all have a joyful and safe holiday season.
Wayne
Girlfriend is out of town -- back in PA -- therefore I'm probably either working or lazying round the house. I'm going to Chicago from 26/12 to 31/12, then I will spend New Year's Eve in an Amtrak Cafe Car (to be precise, onboard #66 the Party Train). I may go visit a friend in EWR if he's not too drunk by the time #66 hits EWR. After that I am heading home. Then I have to double back out to SPG -- and since I have the railpass, I might go to Maine just for the hell of it.
AEM7
a short mainline STEAM excursion on 29 Dec
Going to Wales on Wednesday to visit my Grandparents, then sometime in the following week I'm hopefully going to London (sadly not to sit around and ride the tube all day, but the person I'm meeting rather makes up for that ;-)!).
Who are you meeting in London? :)
Is Wales in England? Do you need a passport to go to Wales?
Who are you meeting in London? :)
A certain lady whose only flaw is being from Surrey ;-) still, at least she chose the right University (gratuitous plug: www.le.ac.uk)...
Is Wales in England? Do you need a passport to go to Wales?
Nice try at winding me up! For the benefit of the anyone who doesn't know as much about the UK as AEM7, Wales most definitely is NOT in England and you don't need a passport to go from England to Wales any more than you need a passport to ride PATH from Christopher St to Hoboken.
A certain lady whose only flaw is being from Surrey ;-) still, at least she chose the right University
hehe, I didn't know other railfans can get girlfriendues, hehe. I think it's us railfans that can abandon a train to be with a girl that have the advantage -- you know, it's like the famous donkey experiment: you have a fast moving railfan, a girl on one side and a train on the other, which way does the railfan turn? Answer: he zooms past right between the two :-p
Hey, you are from East Midlands, aren't you?
By the way, when I was in college, I met a Surrey girl too, and I had the biggest crush on her for the longest time. She never even talked to me :-p My later encounters with a Chiltern Valley girl more than made up for it :)
AEM7
hehe, I didn't know other railfans can get girlfriendues, hehe.
I thought you were going to ask if one needed a passport to go to Surrey! Yeh, well, I had no intention of ever being with a gal again, but I kinda went to uni and changed my mind about one of them - I guess it makes me normal in at least one way (quite a relief seeing as I spent some time in a mental hospital this term).
I think it's us railfans that can abandon a train to be with a girl that have the advantage
I couldn't agree more - I'm still trying to get C. onto a Class 168 "Clubman", but give me time...
Hey, you are from East Midlands, aren't you?
I'm confused really - my dad was born in Consett, Co. Durham; his parents live in Ponteland, Northumberland; my mum was born in Neath, Glamorgan, where her parents still live; I was born in Cardiff, but I've lived most of my life in Birmingham and now I'm at Uni in Leicester, so I really don't know what I am... I suppose I should take the next step and cross the pond like you!
By the way, when I was in college, I met a Surrey girl too, and I had the biggest crush on her for the longest time.
Awwwww... I know how to upset someone from Surrey - introduce them to someone saying they're from South London... C.'s just perfect - but I would say that... I really miss her now it's the vacation... I kinda had a crush on her and we were always talking to eachother (conveniently in my room), then she decided she liked me...
It was SO difficult when she found out I was a Railfan! She kinda noticed the copy of BAHN on my computer and all the files I'd created trying to design/redesign subways - oh dear - still, she forgave me for it!
XMAS Day: Transit and Weather Together on WCBS Newsradio-880, 5-11am. Nearly all of us on-air that day will be of the faith that doesn't celebrate Christmas, so that our colleauges may have the day off to be with their families.
Revised schedule: I'll be on 5am-8am, then possibly again after 4pm. This "GO" is due to the fact that Craig Allen will be working some TV.
While it will be wet and wild in NYC, those taking the train north (upstate or to New England) will find more white and less wet the more you head north.
I'm scheduled to work the Raritan Valley Line both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve. Christmas Eve I don't mind, but on New Year's Eve I have to work the 1:04 am train out of Newark. Oh, well!
At least I'm off on both Christmas Day and New Year's Day. I'll probably need all of New Year's Day to recover!
Yow ... my sympathies. Don't forget to bring rubber boots and a mop. :(
I have to work the 1:04 am train out of Newark. Oh, well!
Hey, I'll be riding on #66 that day. If I happen to be riding in the headend I'll give you a wave as we go through EWR :-p
AEM7
I'll be most likely on Track #5. I don't normally see any eastbound trains going by unless things are ultra screwed up, and they bring you in on Track #4! And I never saw that happen in the 4 years I've been on the railroad.
Showing NYC off to visitors. My thanks to those of you working the rails over the holiday -- we'd have to cross the street and watch movies if it weren't for you.
The usual on Christmas day - visiting kids, grandson, mother, aunts, and then dinner at my wife's cousin's house with family from my wife's side.
The biggie, though, will be Friday, doing the SubTalk + West Jersey Chapter NRHS SEPTA trip beginning with the 9:28 Wilmington Local out of Market East.
On the first annual SubTalk SEPTA excursion, I met Jersey Mike, Transit Chuck Greene, and Bill Steil (from Milwaukee, IIRC, but he took the train down from New York to join us). I met Isaac Shomer on the second excursion, and he's the one who got us the oft-mentioned cab ride on the Broad Street Subway Ridge Ave spur. Fred Ciocciola, of the West Jersey Chapter, joined us. He's the one who wrote the Route 15 trolley report that's still an active thread. He'll be joining us again, as will at least one (and possibly several) additional West Jersey Chapter members.
I'd like to meet some of the other Southeast PA/South Jersey SubTalkers who are actively posting these days.
I'll probably get out of work around 3 on Tuesday, so I might take advantage of the time to ride one of the R-143's on the L - so far, I've only had the chance to ride one a couple of stops.
It seems one way to get a good, long, passionate thread going these days, it's to bring up a labor relations issue. The issue of the day is that the TWU is claiming the TA is top heavy, with too many managers.
My comment is this: the TA is top heavy, because there are so many people whose job is to get other people to do THEIR jobs. In the private sector, they got rid of all the extra top level staff, and told line workers to take responsibility for their own jobs or be replaced. But at the TA, workers can only be fired through protracted fights over picayune rules, something that doesn't seem to have made the workforce happy.
What would happen if management backed off and made the workers, not the managers, responsible for the quality of service? That is, if a someone doesn't show up to drive a train or bus, it's the TWU's fault, not management's fault. If a bus or train has to be taken out of service because maintenance wasn't done, it's the TWU's fault, not managements fault. Have each such incident documented and published on the web. What would happen?
Sixteen years ago, when I was with Material, the TA created scheduled maintenance kits for the buses -- I was responsible for ordering them. Generally, the mechanics didn't want to be bothered replacing parts that might not fail until a few weeks or months later, perhaps on the road. Why do all that work? So we found hundreds of thousands of dollars of parts being thrown in the garbage. So what do you do? You hire managers and analysts to stand over people and make sure the work gets done. A huge an wasteful expense.
But, as has been pointed out, most of the workers with those attitudes have now retired. So you TWU guys, be honest, what would happen to MDBF, percent on-time, percent of cars/buses clean etc. TODAY if the amount of oversight were reduced?
ah, Larry, stirrer of s#$%. The thrown away parts are a great story--the "ad" with that tale run during negotiations would have been fun. Maybe counting up the "new" parts discarded and "billing them to the shop crew en masse?" I forgot, that is collective punishment, which in a culture of 'solidarity', coverup to protect your 'brothers/sisters', is considered unfair. Conversely an MDBF bonus by shop? How far are we from, "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work."?
IMHO, one of the advantages to RIDER/Taxpayers of CBTC, GPS, et al is the availability of more transparency in operations. If the ATO/CBTC hardware is reliable, you can actually determine if a train/bus is on time. Fudging by manual record keepers trying to 'look better' is thwarted.
The reason we are migrating to the obnoxious and often innaccurate canned announcements on transit nationwide is the persistent refusal of many bus drivers to make them even after the ADA regs came out. Or worse the cute announcement of a potential transfer after the line in question has stopped running for the day.
Actually, this is an interesting theory. I didn't know about the parts being thrown in the garbage.
The problem with handing management responsibilities over to the TWU is that you will end up with the union running the show. That happened in San Diego after privatization. The union boffins took over the bidding and couldn't give a crap about workers and started paying them a very low wage just so they can keep the non-union "scums" out. Most of the workers were pissed off that the union is not protecting them, yet there was nothing they could do about it.
If an union is given management responsibilities, it will behave like a management towards its people. Worse, if an union is behaving like management, there is no one to look out for the interest of the workers. You can't organize a union against a union, especially not one that has the contract from MTA or whatever authority to "manage" the operations.
AEM7
I don't know anything specifically about the TWU, of course, but it's a general rule in most businesses that workers will live up to the level of responsibilty accorded them. In other words, treat workers like wayward children, watching them like a hawk at every moment, and that's just how they'll behave. Give them a high degree of responsibility, and they'll act responsibly.
UNTIL the layoffs begin, then we go right back to "who cares?" A whole new regime of responsibility in the workplace was created in the 1990's and for the most part it worked well. Now that folks are seeing layoffs as reward for all that hard work, we may see massive setbacks to this theory.
But yes, what you say is true. The BIG secret though is that with the responsibility must come the AUTHORITY to make necessary changes. The state has dabbled with this theory in the past, but forgot that LAST part. Only a handful of managers in state service are capable of saying "here's what needs to be done, go DO it" and step back to an advisory ONLY capability. But responisbility without the corresponding "authority to act" only shuffles the deck chairs of the "blame game."
So, your opinion, Selkirk (in case you get back to this thread). Is the problem due to the individual middle-level state managers (or political appointees?), or is there something built into the promotion system and org chart that makes butt covers our most important product?
The REAL problem is organizational and philosophical in nature - yes there are too many managers in most state agencies. The good citizens demand "accountability" from their lawgivers, and the lawgivers (who don't give a CRAP about the people) turn around and beat up on agencies any time they get bad press over anything. Political appointees run the various agencies and live in constant fear of the "second floor" (Gov) so any time the leadership twitches, the beatings are administered up and down the chain. As they say, sheet floats and everything else goes downhill.
Remember that in private industry, it's all about making MORE MONEY. In GOVERNMENT, it's all about making the porcine swine at the top happy and make them go away without the administration of beatings. When the beatings DO come around though, management confabs, appoints study groups and committees and decides that a brand new direction and layer of management is necessary to administer whatever got the leaders (and their plug-ins at the top of an agency) in a knot and provide a response. This usually ends up as more rules, an oversight person or persons for those rules, and more paperwork to document and quantify the "improvements." And of course, you need a compliance officer and lots and lots of memos.
You also have a number of folks in management who couldn't make it out in the private sector who also have to justify their existence annually, so many are compelled to "make work" and shake the trees just to maintain their importance. Dunno what it is about so many layers of state "management" but many of them are the kids that used to pull the wings off flies when you were in school, and set fire to cats. You know the type. Government attracts them like flies to a blue light in summer. :)
Bottom line, in government service, if you were GIVEN the authority to solve problems on the "front line" you'd be taking food off the table of some deputy assistant deputy adminiswig whose entire job is to count the sugar cubes in the coffee room and write up the shortages and then file a memo on proper procedures for washing coffee cups after the coffee committee has submitted its study.
I don't miss it at all. :)
Worthy of printing (on a private xerox machine in another state; your pension is safe). The beatings come around in the private sector, of course, and considering the size of some of the firms and the way they slip over compensation, they attract their share of top-level nincompoops. But we've gotten past all the committee-appointing lately, and I wonder why the few pols who DO downsize don't advertise better (Clinton being a case in point).
To quote any politician, "I'll get back to you on that." :)
I think there was a clerk working in a token booth that looked just like him!
Merry Christmas to you too, and a Happy New Year!!!
"Re: Xmas Card (76 St Station)"
LOL!!!!
Very nice Paul, I assume this was actually used by the BMT at some point ?
Can you give us some more information about it ?
It was the very first cover of the BRT Monthly, June 1916. I colorized it in 2000 and added the Brighton Express marker lights (an anachronism since Standards didn't operate on the Brighton for another 4-1/2 years). Ernest Hamlin Baker was a self-taught illustrator who later did covers for mainstream publications, including (IIRC) Time Magazine during WWII.
On NPR "The Next Big Thing" radio show they are doing a feature on
how the first car of every NY Subway train is the "Singles Car."
Has anyone heard about this?!
Cool
The rain/snow line could be close, but it looks like the tri-state area could be in for a true white Christmas. In other words, not a white Christmas from past snow cover, but from a snow storm on Christmas Day! -Nick
Stay tuned!
In other words, not a white Christmas from past snow cover, but from a snow storm on Christmas Day! -Nick
It would be nice. I could go out and get some good train photos......nothing too much else to do that day. In my family, we do our gift-giving and other family stuff on Christmas Eve, so some snow will do me good for some photos on Christams Day.
Christmas Day 1992:
Oops, Christmas 1993
Good photo, Chris...thanks so much for posting! -Nick
We'll just have to get Todd to arrange for some snow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
From Xmases past...
We had 6" on Dec. 24, 1966, 2 inches on Dec. 25, 1969, a couple of inches on Dec. 25, 1976 (but that snow started in the evening), and IIRC, two inches fell on Dec 21st, 1996 or 1997...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ou sont les nieges d'hier?....
I don't remember when it fell, but there was snow on the ground Christmas 1993.
>>>but there was snow on the ground Christmas 1993. <<<
That year we had a very cold christmas (and a very cold winter for that matter) and we had flurries on Christmas eve that stuck, so there was a smattering of white on the ground. Early in '94 we dropped below zero...the last time it has done that in NYC.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There was snow on the ground during Christmas of 1995 and two weeks later we got almost two feet of snow on January 7th and 8th for the "Blizzard of 1996".
#3 West End Jeff
You guys are stealing Todd Glickman's, uh, thunder :)
I'll leave it to the professional and his holiday forecast!
--Mark
Heh.
But this is not WeatherTalk so y'all will have to check out Transit and Weather Together on Wednesday morning :-)
The National Weather Service says that some accumalting snow is possible on Wednesday. We'll know soon whether we'll be getting a white Christmas.
#3 West End Jeff
That year we had a very cold christmas (and a very cold winter for that matter) and we had flurries on Christmas eve that stuck, so there was a smattering of white on the ground.
It seemed like more than a furry, but I can't remember. But anyway, here is another photo from that White Christmas.
In Trent Lott's dreams.
Heh. He's a reformed man now. I'm sure we'll see him on the L train Thursday evening after he lights his Umoja candle. :)
"In Trent Lott's dreams."
LOL...I was wondering if anyone was going to say that! -Nick
The way things look now, there is a chance that we could be in for an all out snowstorm if were lucky. I wouldn't be surprise if New York City winds up with 6 inches of snow out of thins storm. Is things really get going, there could be more.
#3 West End Jeff
Has antone seem himue?
He is Matt-Davis Sq. now.
Well, the "historical confusion" phenomenon has struck again, as played out the other day as follows:
1. Train arrives at station (this time, northbound F at 14th/6th);
2. Conductor announces transfers to the "BMT L train and IRT 1, 2, 3, 9 trains";
3. Passenger hears the "R" in IRT, says "Oh, I need the R" and jumps up to run out of the train.
- - - - -
Now for the soapbox:
Most riders neither know nor care that the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Company once operated a route which is now (but wasn't then) designated "L." That company ceased to exist OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO; it's in the PAST, and that's where it should stay.
The historical names belong in the Transit Museum, not in CURRENT service announcements. "BMT" and "IRT" have zero meaning for CURRENT subway riders, who plan their CURRENT trips according to CURRENT routes as shown on the CURRENT subway map. They do not need to hear historical names or internal Transit terminology. Conductors who announce the old names obviously do so for the purpose of confusing the riding public.
There, I said it.
The historical names belong in the Transit Museum, not in CURRENT service announcements... purpose of confusing the riding public.
Not true. Here up in Boston, you will still hear people talk about the Orange Line "Trolley", the "Harvard-Ashmont Line", and the Watertown "Trolley". The Orange Line is a subway, the Watertown trolley is a bus, and the Harvard-Ashmont line does not terminate at either Harvard or Ashmont. At least that the MBTA's rebranding exercise is successful, and people are actually refering to the lines by their color codes. But old habits die hard, and I still get people asking me on the Green Line how they can get to Watertown, some 30 years after the fact.
AEM7
I beg to differ. And how come you referred to 6th Ave. when we all KNOW its the Avenue of the Americas? I hope you don't object to the painting of MNCR/ConnDOT equipment in "historic" colors of RR's which have ceased to exist thirty years ago. Everyone who uses a 'system' gets to "learn" it. Mistakes of a non fayal sort are useful reminders to pay more attention.
[And how come you referred to 6th Ave. when we all KNOW its the Avenue of the Americas?]
Both names are officially correct; "Avenue of the Americas" was Mayor LaGuardia's idea of political correctness.
You'd be surprised how many people still refer to the lines by their old names. One reason why my announcements sound similar to the guy on the F train. What you witnessed here is much more the exception than the rule. After 16 years as a conductor, believe me, I know what works as far as announcements go.
do conductors announce 200th Street at Dyckman or Bedford Park Blvd?
I haven't worked the A or D in many, many moons, but I don't recall announcing '200th Street' at these locations. Maybe policy has changed since, I don't know. I picked an A job for President's Day to save an AVA, I guess I'll find out then.
Billy
You're working the A on Washington's Birthday????? God save us!
2. Conductor announces transfers to the "BMT L train and IRT 1, 2, 3, 9 trains";
3. Passenger hears the "R" in IRT, says "Oh, I need the R" and jumps up to run out of the train.
I wonder if anyone got off to transfer to the I or T trains there also.....
Seriously though, I understand what you mean. It can easily be thought to mean, "Transfer to the I, R, T, 1, 2, 3, 9 trains".
Old habits die hard. For example, on a less "damaging" note, I often still hear conductors announce "Myrtle-Broadway" on the J trains. That's still a remnant of the Myrtle Ave El, that hasn't run since 1969! There is no reason to have to call the station "Myrtle-Broadway" anymore. Every station between Marcy and Broadway Junction is on Broadway. I even find myself calling the station Myrtle-Broadway many times, and I wasn't even born when the Myrtle El was still running! I guess on M trains there could be a slight reason to call it that, but on the J, definitiely not necessary.
There is no reason to have to call the station "Myrtle-Broadway" anymore. Every station between Marcy and Broadway Junction is on Broadway.
Yes, but every station between Myrtle-Broadway and Wyckoff is on Myrtle Avenue.
Conductors who announce the old names obviously do so for the purpose of confusing the riding public
I hardly think it is deliberate. Old habits are hard to break - Heck I still refer to the BMT, IRT, Sea Beach Line, West End Line, Lexington Avenue Line, Flushing Line - etc. When giving directions I have to literally pause - think and "translate" those names into the current nomenclature. So I don't think anything was done to deliberately confuse anyone.
And unlike you I do not intend to see the memory of the BMT die - I even created a website so that its legacy will never be forgotten.
BMT-Lines.COM
[And unlike you I do not intend to see the memory of the BMT die...]
I never said I wanted the memory of the BMT to die.
Let me clarify that my original remark: The HISTORICAL names belong in the Transit Museum (and in the hearts and minds of railfans everywhere), where they can be remembered in their proper HISTORICAL context. However, CURRENT service announcements, which CURRENT riders need for their CURRENT trips, should contain only CURRENT information.
However, CURRENT service announcements, which CURRENT riders need for their CURRENT trips, should contain only CURRENT information
Up to 1967 the terms IRT, BMT, and IND were still the official division names on all the NYCTA maps and service guides. These terms were still in common usage up until the late 1970's or early 1980's. In fact, many of the old signs were still up in those days. IIRC the MTA only started a concerted effort to force people to use the line letters/numbers in the early 1980's by removing references to the old divisions and changing all old signs. You are right - employees should be trained to make proper announcements, but I wonder how many long-time employees are still using the old terms out of habit and not out of any intent to confuse.
Perhaps it is the TA that is still confused.
The emergency exit signs found in the front and read of every subway station indicate the direction of train travel, track numbers, the distance to the next emergency exit and the division of the subway that you are in. The division of the subway is represented as IRT, BMT or IND! For example, the TA insists that the southbound 49th St / Broadway BMT station is part of the IND division :)
So I would say that while the TA is discouraging passengers from the historical nomenclature, it is NOT doing so for employees and emergency personnel.
--Mark
A quick story. Earlier this year a Train Service Supervisor was operating for my conductor to give him a break. He hads been a TSS since 1989. His announcements were straight out of 1982. He refered to the L as the LL and the R as the RR. I don't think people on this job are PURPOSELY trying to confuse the passengers. It's just that old habits do die hard.
[He refered to the L as the LL and the R as the RR. I don't think people on this job are PURPOSELY trying to confuse the passengers. It's just that old habits do die hard.]
It's about choices, not habits. Most conductors choose to make a habit of following the script when making their announcements. Others consciously decide to announce ancient route letters or just plain wrong information. (One such conductor on the A several years ago included the M at East New York. I asked him when the M started serving that station; he said, "It doesn't, but you can get to it from here." He also had the train signed for Far Rockaway - "because that's where we normally go" - even though a G.O. had the train turning at Euclid!)
so would it be a bad thing to announce Bedford Park Blvd or Dyckman St as 200th St?
[so would it be a bad thing to announce Bedford Park Blvd or Dyckman St as 200th St?]
Yes, because "Dyckman Street" (Manhattan) and "Bedford Park Blvd" (Bronx) are the CORRECT names of those streets, and "200th Street" is not.
I guess Nereid Av-238 St is one of the exceptions to the rule.
BTW BPB used to be called 200th Street(officially), and if you go east of Webster Avenue near Bronx Park, the Botanical Gardens consider that to be 200th Street (so 200th Street technically still exists in Bronx Park)
If it weren't for the tearing down of the (8) and Lehman College being opened there still would be Bedford Park Blvd-200 St signs and references around (especially in the (8) station)
(One such conductor on the A several years ago included the M at East New York. I asked him when the M started serving that station; he said, "It doesn't, but you can get to it from here."
That's insanity! By that thinking you could announce almost any line from any transfer station because "you can get to it from here". He might as well announce the G from Wyckoff Ave on the M, "because you can get to it from here".
He refered to the L as the LL and the R as the RR. I don't think people on this job are PURPOSELY trying to confuse the passengers. It's just that old habits do die hard.
My father to this day still calls the L, the "LL". He used to be a daily rider of the LL back in the 70s, and just can't shake calling it that, especially because he only rides the subway occasionally (rarely actually) now. I believe he even thinks the M still runs on the Brighton to Coney Island. And no matter how many times I may correct him about current routes, etc, a week later he'll be back to the 70's. Actually, he could give someone perfect directions to get any where in the city using the subway - that is if it still ran like the 70's.....
sometimes the conductor will announce "34TH Street-Pennsylvania station." Is the official name Penn station, or Pennsylvania station?
It's a question of what the agency policy is. I've never heard of J.F.K./UMass being called "Columbia Ave", Downtown Crossing being called "Washington", or Government Centre being called "Scollay Sq." MBTA pays a lot of attention to its signage and announcement on the rail transit systems (it's a different story on the buses), and therefore the station names stick once they have been renamed and all the crews remember. I think part of the reason is because Scollay Sq simply isn't there anymore. The color designations are a different story, though.
AEM7
[sometimes the conductor will announce "34TH Street-Pennsylvania station." Is the official name Penn station, or Pennsylvania station?]
Pennsylvania, which was the name of the railroad that originally owned both the station and the nearby Hotel Pennsylvania* (whose phone number is still PEnnsylvania-6-5000).
* Not to be confused with the Hotel California. :-)
Which last I looked wasn't called the Hotel Pennsylvania anymore. And, Amtrak - the current owner - calls the place Penn Station.
Which last I looked wasn't called the Hotel Pennsylvania anymore.
It was when I walked past it a few weeks ago.
Yes, they changed it back a few years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last I looked was a long time ago, when it was the Penta. In all honesty, I don't care what they call it - I can still get people there.
Unlike Sunday, when I found that some in the Asian community have changed the location of "Downtown Brooklyn" from, well, downtown Brooklyn, to 8 Ave and 62 St.
What about official references to the BMT Southern Division lines that are still part of every day use? These lines are even listed as such on today's subway maps yet none of the other lines are listed with names. What about the F listed as "Culver Local" on the electronic R-46 destination signs?
Also, as I point out from my "History of the IND" right on this site:
In the late '70s and early '80s, mostly from the effects of the Chrystie Street connection project, the New York City Transit Authority tried to delete the separate identities of each division, dropping them from maps and no longer using these terms in station announcements. While you won't find references to these divisions on maps anymore, you will still hear references to them in some station announcements as well as by conductors-- and at some stations (the "IRT" station at Cortlandt St./World Trade Center had the IRT name on entryway signs). In addition, at the front and rear of virtually every underground station in New York City, you will find a red sign identifying to emergency personnel the current location, where the next emergency exits are, and what division (IRT, BMT, IND) of the subway you're currently in.
--Mark
The C/R was no doubt making announcements for the benefits of those riders caught in a time-warp....like heypaul and Sea Beach Freddy. :)
......bought it at the monrovia ca. wal mart last week .............
>>>>>>>wow.....!!
i like it big time !!
maybe some other train simulator software out there folks ?
rail transit would be the bomb !
I've heard rave reviews (and seen pictures) about Auran's Trainz, which I intend to buy now that I have a new computer that can handle its speed, memory, and storage requirements.
i finally got a new pc that can load it ...
looking 4 other rail simulations of the transit type of cource !
So that's why you haven't been on SubTalk that often!!!
Some advice: Make sure you put the settings on "derail" otherwise it will not be as realistic. When it is not on that setting you can go around any curve and nothing would happen. If you use the steam engines make sure you set it on "automatic fireman" or you will melt the whole tank! One problem with the MTS is no track maps. You can be on a route you don't know for an hour, go around a curve, and hit a surprise bumber!!!
actually that was not the only reason but;
the microsoft TRAIN SIMULATOR
is one badass PC game dont you agree ??
the brake controls are a bit too slow .........
trying to get desktops downloads cant seem to find that program
...as of now that is .....lol .....
Somebody educate a wide-eyed midwestern newbie. Was there a time at which the Manhattan Bridge work (not the planning, but the actual construction) was stopped or slowed due to scandal or mismanagement? Or is this just a slow job being done around active traffic in the admittedly ponderous NYC construction culture?
"Was there a time at which the Manhattan Bridge work (not the planning, but the actual construction) was stopped or slowed due to scandal or mismanagement?"
Maybe some questionable management, or at least insufficient engineering study. For a few short months in the late 80s (roughly) they restored service to both sides of the bridge, and then discovered that the bridge was in a lot worse shape than they thought. If they'd understood the condition of the bridge to begin with, the serious fixing might have started earlier.
But nothing particularly scandalous or incompetent. A lot of time was spent trying to figure out where to get the money to fix it.
Nothing as bad as the State of Washington allowing two key floating bridges to sink.
Thanks. "Existing conditions" can be an elusive animal.
I think the Puget Sound area has also had mare than its share of rammed bridges and slipped bascules. Not to mention Chicago's Michigan Ave. bridge sticking up like a middle finger the same year the basements all flooded. Sometimes it just sucks to be a city.
I do believe that AIM was refering to the Hood Canal floating bridge over the Hood Canal of all things, and the I-90 floating bridge over Lake Washington via Mercer Island. I think the Hood canal sank because of extreme tidal currents or something, prior to that they'd only been built over non-tidal lakes and so on. I can remember the I-90 sinking, I was pretty young, but I remember the NEW I-90 bridge going in, and talk of having three spans over lake washington, something that would be nice now, given all the california transplants that move out around Issaquah and commute to the city. I think that one resulted from a construction accident by one of the workers on the new I-90 bridge (can't really call it a span if it sits on the water can we?). Around the same time a car was smashed by the 520 floating bridge while it was opened, 520 is well to the north of the I-90 bridge, and was completely unrelated. Now theres talk of replacing the 520 bridge, some are even speaking of a non-floating span, possibly a big suspension bridge, or some form of cable staying bridge. All that the eastsiders can hope for is that it at least has a pathway for some form of fixed path transit, be it LINK LRT service, or some extention of the Green Line monorail.
Of course I am forgetting the most famous WSDOT failure, the Tacoma Narrows. Probably the worst bridge disaster since that rail bridge that collapsed in england back around the turn of the century. That one's blame is squarely on the engineers and the builders, of course it all hinged on a branch of aerodynamics little understood at the time, it too none other than Theodore von Karmen to figure out what was wrong with it.
It's important to remember that ALL the spans that have been mentioned here are still in operation, the hood canal bridge was rebuilt and still carries people between the Kitsap and Olympic Pennisulas. The I-90 Floating bridge was actually replaced before the older one sank, although there were fears that the sinking of the older one might bring down the new multi-million dollar bridge, it survived. 520 was closed for only as long as neccessary to clean up the cars and was reopened, and of course, the Tacoma Narrows 'Galloping Gurtie' was rebuilt with the same suspention towers, anchorages, and approaches as Sturdy Gurtie, and still carries people from Tacoma out to the base of the Kitsap Pennisula.
Right now there are no real spans over the Puget Sound proper, Washington State Ferries is the only alternative to an easily 3 hour plus drive for people commuting between Seattle and Bremerton. I wouldn't be surprised to see plans for bridges linking Faunleroy and Southworth via Vashon Island, although the NIMBY problems would be nearly insurmountable, since the waterfronts of the Pacific Northwest are completely different from those out here, there people built mansions on the water, not industrial plants of varying kinds, and those people want their views, which they think that a bridge wil; ruin. The affluent people on Mercer tried to have the new I-90 bridge bypass their Island, making a hop across Lake Washington at nearly it's widest part, and nearly sinking the replacement program. Fortunately the burgeoning eastsiders in Bellevue, not to mention places like Redmond, shot them down, and when the old, narrow I-90 sunk, it didn't leave the East side hanging by a thread at 520.
Any danger there won't be a ROW for transit on a 520 bridge replacement, since transit levies are starting to get voted down?
... the Tacoma Narrows 'Galloping Gurtie' was rebuilt with the same suspention towers, anchorages, and approaches as Sturdy Gurtie ...
Wrong. The approach highway is the only substantially intact reuse. The towers were removed and replaced with significantly wider ones, mounted on the same piers (the original piers were as overbuilt as the rest of the bridge was underbuilt, so they could stand the 60% increase in load with no problem). Portions of the original anchorages were blasted away to accomodate the new cable anchors (spaced 60' apart, vs. 39' in the original) and new anchorages were constructed, using what remained of the old anchorages as a core.
Interestingly enough, what remains of "Galloping Gertie" on the floor of Puget Sound is now designated as a National Historic Landmark; it is also the largest man-made object to have been "lost at sea".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interestingly enough, what remains of "Galloping Gertie" on the floor of Puget Sound is now designated as a National Historic Landmark; it is also the largest man-made object to have been "lost at sea". <.i>
Amazing. Any underwater / glass bottom boat tours offered where one could see these remains?
--Mark
Interestingly enough, what remains of "Galloping Gertie" on the floor of Puget Sound is now designated as a National Historic Landmark; it is also the largest man-made object to have been "lost at sea".
Amazing. Any underwater / glass bottom boat tours offered where one could see these remains?
--Mark
They're too far down to be visible, Mark... but there are some underwater photographs at this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for posting that site -- I drive over that bridge a couple times each summer when I'm up in that neck of the woods.
The affluent people on Mercer tried to have the new I-90 bridge bypass their Island, making a hop across Lake Washington at nearly it's widest part, and nearly sinking the replacement program. Fortunately the burgeoning eastsiders in Bellevue, not to mention places like Redmond, shot them down, and when the old, narrow I-90 sunk, it didn't leave the East side hanging by a thread at 520.
The access provided by the bridge probably helps keep Mercer Island property values so high. It's not as if the bridge terribly undercuts the quality of life on the island. Another illustration of the stupidity of many NIMBY's.
I used to ride my bike across the old I-90 bridge, while the new bridge was going up. The construction across Mercer Island was a mess to navigate. I'll have to say though that it beats my current commute, the Q train from Newkirk. For anybody that has never been there, the Seattle area is just beautiful. Someday I'll figure out a way to live there again, hopefully while I can still get on a bike.
If anyone has any photos relating to the subject above, can you post the links or the photos themselves on SubTalk? Thanks.
Please go to joe korner web site, I beleive you can get to it through this site and go to joe's pictures. I sent him 3 pictures that I took from back in the mid 1980's. These shots were taken on jamaica ave west of 121 st station, you can see where they removed several blocks of the el. all shots show the new ramp and where the el was severed west of 121 st and the now higher section of el above the lirr tracks that was demolished. I hope this helps
john
All I can say is that those are some damn good photos!
Thanks, I am glad you liked them. well i guess that is something we will probably won't see again in our life time. enjoy
john
WOW. You can't ask for a clearer depiction than that!
Train passengers will be able to check and send e-mail, shop, and watch videos via NRoute's satellite service.
Linda Rosencrance, Computerworld
Friday, September 13, 2002
True to its mission to support public transportation, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has invested in a test that will offer wireless Internet access to riders on Amtrak's Keystone Line, which stops in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and New York.
Chris Johnston, assistant deputy secretary of local area transportation at PennDOT, says the agency issued a $155,000 grant to Philadelphia-based NRoute Communications, the company providing the technology. Johnston says PennDOT will gauge customer reaction and interest via an online survey as well as through face-to-face interviews.
(In-Seat Internet)
NRoute's system will allow Amtrak riders to watch movies and television, check and send e-mail, and shop online using interactive touch-screen displays integrated into the back of each seat, Johnston says.
NRoute markets a proprietary mobile, high-speed wireless network that delivers full video, audio, and Internet access via wireless and satellite technologies to passengers on trains and motor coaches.
Initially the yearlong test, on track to begin next month, will be conducted on one lounge car on the line, which has about 36 seats, Johnston says.
NRoute President Bob Lisowski says the grant from PennDot will cover the costs of purchasing and installing the equipment. NRoute will operate the network with revenue from the advertiser-supported site, Lisowski says.
Ultimately NRoute plans to allow riders to connect to the network via their laptops for a fee, and also offer pay-per-view movies, Lisowski says.
(High-Speed Service)
Lisowski says NRoute's technology uses geo-positioning and satellite capabilities to distribute high-speed interconnectivity to the train while it is moving. A local caching server on board would hold video content, updated news, weather, sports, and advertising. Large updates to the server would occur when the train is at the station, he says.
Amtrak will get a small share of the ad revenue, says Amtrak spokesperson Bill Epstein.
Although Lisowski says NRoute is looking forward to a long-term relationship with Amtrak, Epstein says if Amtrak were to offer Internet access on a national level, it would have to partner with a company with deeper pockets than start-up NRoute.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I have a few questions on why some subway lines aren't running express:
1) The Culver Line. Is the express track suitable for normal train travel? If so, are all the resources available to run trains safely on that track?
2) Sea Beach Line. Two express tracks. Suitable for normal train travel? (I think there is a 3rd rail missing from the outbound exp. track by New Utrecht Av.) Resources available?
3) Is there any express track on a line (preferably an "El" or open-cut) that is not being used at all? Can some possibly have considerations on its usage?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
1. Culver Line express service operated from 1968 to 1975 and was discontinued due to New York City's fiscal crisis of the mid-1970s. There was a move to resurrect it in the 1990s, but the riders on the inner portion of the line (the "IND" part from Church Avenue north) shouted it down because there's a lot of riding at the local stops.
2. Only one Sea Beach track is available (the other was disconnected a few years ago). It's used frequently for General Orders. The Sea Beach Line has no "express" stations, so any express trains operating on the line would be OPERATING on it but not SERVING it. Years ago, the tracks were used for express service to/from the beach in the summers, but Coney Island isn't quite the destination it once was. There was, of course, also the "NX" service of the late 1960s. It was actually a Brighton Line train that ran over the Sea Beach express tracks -- didn't last very long.
3. There are several express tracks that don't see any regular service. Riding levels at what would be the "express" stations don't support their use. Among them are Jerome Avenue and West End. There's also the Queens Boulevard express between 71st Avenue and 179th Street, which had service for many years. The residents up there several years ago indicated a preference for F local service (then express south of 71st Avenue) over F expresses and R locals.
David
[There are several express tracks that don't see any regular service.... There's also the Queens Boulevard express between 71st Avenue and 179th Street, which had service for many years.]
Those tracks are currently used by the "oddball" E trains operating to and from 179th instead of Archer/Parsons (peak hours, peak direction).
What times does the E to 179 St leave Chambers St?
What times does the E to 179 St leave Chambers St?
check mta.info, it is probably on the E schedules
"check mta.info, it is probably on the E schedules"
It's not.
Others have said one every 20 minutes during peak rush hour (approx. 5 trains total). Evidently the TA posted paper signs which have probably long ago been torn down.
Four E trains from WTC to 179 St. They leave WTC at 1708, 1728, 1840 & 1920.
Do those E trains run express from 71 Ave to 179 St? Or do they run local like the F trains?
I thought they ran express, but the one I rode this afternoon (the 1728, I think) went local, and the C/R had been announcing that it would go local all along. It was signed for Jamaica Center.
I realize ridership patterns this afternoon were different than on most days, but the car I was in (north end) had about a quarter of its seats empty until we reached 23rd-Ely, where we picked up a few standees. I have a hunch the E's claims of overcrowding are somewhat overblown -- the 1 train at 9:30 on a Sunday morning is more crowded than this rush hour E train was.
I have a hunch the E's claims of overcrowding are somewhat overblown -- the 1 train at 9:30 on a Sunday morning is more crowded than this rush hour E train was.
The real test though would be to see if that was also true on a day when a lot of people didn't take off.
Agreed, this was far from a scientific experiment -- but on my F - D - 1 ride back home afterwards, well after the rush hour peak, the D was a bit more crowded than the E and the 1 was much more crowded.
Wait until people return from vacation, then you would make a valid argument but its Christmas Eve and a lot of people are gone. I rode it on Friday and it is NO fluke but look at the Lex Av line, now that's overbloated crowding.
There's also the Queens Boulevard express between 71st Avenue and 179th Street, which had service for many years
Doesn't the Jamaica Center E's also skip 75th and Briarwood? I don't remember, it's been a while since I took the E east of Continental. I think east of Briarwood is the only portion of the Queens express not regularily used (except for a few occasional special E's rush hours).
On weekdays between 6am-6pm [Manhattan bound] and 7am to about 9pm[Jamaica Center bound] the E skips those two stations but I say skipping Briarwood is pointless since it has to switch to the track toward Jam. Center. You're right other than the special E's, no service uses the middle tracks east of Briarwood [the F last used those tracks until 1992, when the R got shortened to 71 Av].
Culver Line express service operated from 1968 to 1975 and was discontinued due to New York City's fiscal crisis of the mid-1970s. There was a move to resurrect it in the 1990s, but the riders on the inner portion of the line (the "IND" part from Church Avenue north) shouted it down because there's a lot of riding at the local stops.
I believe they did run express F's between 18th and Kings Highway on the Culver El in the 80's also. (but not on the IND portion of the route, as you mentioned)
>>"3. There are several express tracks that don't see any regular service. Riding levels at what would be the "express" stations don't support their use. Among them are Jerome Avenue and West End. There's also the Queens Boulevard express between 71st Avenue and 179th Street, which had service for many years. The residents up there several years ago indicated a preference for F local service (then express south of 71st Avenue) over F expresses and R locals."<<
Don't forget the WPR line north of E 180 St, east of Grant Av and the 2 middle tracks via the Rockaways on the A, the Astoria middle track, east of Myrtle Av on the J/Z, all the middle track portions on the 1/9, east of Parkchester on the 6.
the express tracks that are not being used:
IRT BROADWAY(96-145,dykman-242)1 track
IRT WHITE PLAINS ROAD(E180th-E241st)1"
IRT DYRE AVENUE(some track is not in place)2
IRT WOODLAWN JEROME 1
BMT BROADWAY BROOKLYN(Myrtle-ENY, trackbed continues to 121)1
BMT WEST END 1
BMT SEA BEACH (one track is disconnected)1-2
BMT/IND CULVER BMT-1 track, IND-2
IND HILLSIDE(Briarwood-179, limited service on this line)2
IND SIXTH AVENUE (temporarily out of use)2
currently none of these would be very useful, ecxept for the 6th ave exp tracks.
IMO more express services should be cut,(all bronx expresses, the "D" line, all skip-stop lines, all late night expresses, weekend express service on the all lines but the 4 and 2)
Wow, and I thought I was a radical. Even I can see the value in keeping the 3, 5, A, E, F, and Q express on weekends. (But the D should certainly run local on CPW whenever the B doesn't, and the late night Q should run local between 57/7 and DeKalb.)
[(But the D should certainly run local on CPW whenever the B doesn't....]
In other words, you'd swap the B and D service spans: The D should run weekdays only, and the B should run 24-7 (to/from 205th when no D).
Yes, and that's the terminology I'd prefer, just as I'd prefer that the late night local between 207th Street and Far Rockaway be called the C rather than the A. (Especially to infrequent riders of the line, the local-express distinction is more important than how far out the line runs.)
After the north side of the Manhattan Bridge reopens, presumably the B and D will have different routes in Brooklyn, so we won't have the same flexibility in naming the late night CPW local. Still, it might be desireable to run the full-length B overnight and on weekends, with the Q serving the Brighton line full-time.
After the north side of the Manhattan Bridge reopens, presumably the B and D will have different routes in Brooklyn, so we won't have the same flexibility in naming the late night CPW local.
After the Manny B re-opens, the B train won't necessarily go to BPB anymore as it can be run out of CI instead of Concourse. It could return to 168th St :-D
Unlikely. The B-C north terminal swap took place a few years before anything happened to the Manhattan Bridge.
But are the specific issues related to storage of certain equipment in certain yards still applicable now? If not, the trains might switch back as part of an overall 2004 reorganization of lines.
Certainly there are customer benefits to having 6th Ave trains and 8th Ave trains on both lines. It might also persuade a few more peop,e to stay on the local.
I don't see how the issues would have changed, though I admit I never actually understood what the issues were to begin with.
I agree that the former service arrangement was more useful.
Furthermore, I'd argue that Concourse Express is of greater detriment than benefit and that resultantly all trains should run local on the Concourse Line giving all Concourse Line passengers a direct choice of 6th or 8th Avenue.
I'm not sure about that. With the exceptions of 167th Street and the 161st Street complex, Concourse express stations are somewhat busier than their local counterparts. I'm sure that's partly the case because some passengers who live closer to local stops prefer to walk a few extra blocks for express service, but there may simply be more demand at the express stops.
I wonder why Washington Heights is linked to 8th Avenue and Concourse is linked to 6th Avenue. Might the two communities not prefer the reverse? Given that the Concourse line is a short walk from the 4 and the Washington Heights line is a short walk from the 1/9, I have a feeling they might.
The issues with the B and C were to do with specific types of equipment best being all serviced in the same yard. But with the introduction of the R-143s, everything has been juggled, so it's possible that those issues don't exist any more. But I have no idea. I never paid attention to what the issues were in the first place.
Neither did I. Could someone please fill us in?
IIRC it had something to do with allowing the B to have access to yards with R-68's at both ends. I don't see why that matters. By that reasoning, one would have expected the F to go all-R-32 years ago.
I believe the reason behind the B/C northern termianl swap was that Concourse can maintain R68s only. It was not for passenger convenience. Honestly I prefer the old arrangement of 6 and 8 Ave lines together outside of midtown.....
I guess the Train Dude will have better clarification....
It may be easier to for service reasons, but it seems that has higher priority over passenger convenience.
just like the 5 going to 238 instead of 241, easier for service reasons, higher priority over passenger convenience
I agree on that, it has taken some service away from 241 St but it was done to 'reduce' congestion.
there may be SOME exceptions, I even seen a <5> going southbound after running uptown(I guess to 238/241). And if the (2) takes 30-40 minutes to show up, you may see a <5> going to 241(guessing).
There was even a <5> that terminated at 238 at 10:13am
The 10:13 5 train is probably the last train that goes to 238 until the PM rush. What makes the 2 take so long if crowding is not the only factor?
Sorry, I don't see B's going back to 168 St on a regular basis.
"...and the late night Q should run local between 57/7 and Dekalb..." I would not have the Q going via tunnel. That is a horribly slow ride, with all the sharp turns, and would constitute a serious downgrade in Brighton line service. I suppose you meant local between 57/7 and Canal....
No, I mean between 57/7 and DeKalb. The ride through the tunnel costs about, IIRC, 7 minutes (in seated comfort on a well lit, climate controlled R-68) for who can use the bridge but gains an average of 5 minutes but up to 10 minutes (standing on a dark, weather-prone platform) for those who can't.
Recall that one of the local stations between Canal and DeKalb is a connection point to the Staten Island ferry, which has hourly headways late at night. Having to wait for a W can cost some people an hour.
ammendment:
on weekends-
1 all times- local
2 no changes
3 would run the way it does today, but to atlantic ave
4 brooklyn local- replaces 3 past atlantic
5 same as today, less bronx express service
6 less bronx express service
7 express during rush hours only
9 cut completely
A local all times except rush hours and middays, no lefferts service
B ALL TIMES W4th-205th local CPW Express 6th ave, every 3rd train to grand st
C 168 to lefferts weekdays, euclid-lefferts nights and weekends
D RUSH HOURS ONLY 205th-2 av
E Express in queens all times except nights
F Express in queens weekday midday/rush hours express in bklyn to church rush hours
G court sq. -church all times
J no changes
L no changes
M no changes
N no changes
Q LOCAL local in manhattan weekends and nights
Q EXPRESS rush hours only
R no changes
Z no changes
aren't the 3 and 5 supposed to be the designated expresses? I heard that the 2 and 4 can be switched to local at any time due to something happening.
Why get rid of all Bronx Expresses? in that case eliminate Brooklyn IRT express as well as well as all express service outside of Manhattan.
Skip Stop is unique and should at least stick around, the (9) needs a reason to exist, plus it allows for two direction "express" service in the Bronx.
The 9 does not have a reason to exist to begin with. A line with no reason for existance often is discontinued.
skip stop service that is the reas)on for the (9) to exist (and also the (Z))
The (8) had a reason to exist, but NIMBYs and the MTA got rid of it forcing us to take a bus with worse headways and now no night service.
I'm surprised that the TA doesn't cut (5) late night service and run shuttle buses
The Bronx needs some kind of alternate service, not just all local while everyone else has express.
But the 9 is the very opposite of express, it is super local. By running skip stop, you are forcing more people to spend more time to get from point A to point B. Yes, for the folks traveling bewteen "all stop" stations and south of 137, it does save up to 4 mintues (maybe!). For everyone else, it adds time.
IMO more express services should be cut,(all bronx expresses, the "D" line, all skip-stop lines, all late night expresses, weekend express service on the all lines but the 4 and 2)
Whoa, a little extreme don't you think? What is wrong with the Pelham and Wite Plains expresses? I don't think the Pelham El local stations need the amount of headways full Lexington Line 6's would provide it. The same goes for the White Plains Line.
The same goes for Weekend service. On many of the lines, it isn't necessary to have all the lines running local.
Also, you have:
IND Liberty Av el(80 St-Rockaway Blvd, 104 St-before Lefferts Blvd)1
IRT Pelham line (East of Parkchester)1
You CANNOT eliminate certain express service like the Pelham express, it just wouldn't work.
Many express service cannot be cut, for the express lines are needed to provide the necessary capacity to the line.
Elias
Very true. The 6th Ave express being a good example. The main reason for it's existence is to provide capacity, not really "express" service - it's not much of an express now is it, skipping only two stations.
One of them a transfer point!
I do think that capacity is the primary reason express service exists. However, it doesn't apply in the case of late night service or (on most lines) weekend service. It also doesn't apply to most three-track lines, where capacity is limited by the "what goes up must come down" principle.
Yeah, 14th Street/6th really should have been an express station. Actually, I don't even really understand the reason it is a local station. In this case I don't even think we can use the normal "IND trying to screw the BMT" argument. By the time the express tracks were added to 6th Ave, there was no issue with that. It's almost as if they thought, "Well we have to skip something if it's an express", and just decided to skip 14th and 23rd.
The only thing I can think of is the fact that PATH is there, and maybe it would have been hard to make 14th an express station. This is totally hypothetical, I can't think of any other reason why they would have chosen to make 14th a local station, especially being an transfer station. Under normal Manhattan Bridge 6th Ave service, L riders only have one train, the F, to transfer to at 14th/6th, whereas they would have had the B, D, or F (and even Q for a while) if it had been an express station.
Constructing a lower level express station probably would have been a substantial expense, and it would have left many boarding passengers with the same predicament they have at, e.g., 59/Lex, with no (practical) option of waiting for whichever train happened to pull in first.
Constructing a lower level express station probably would have been a substantial expense,
That's what I figured. Actually, even just fitting the express tracks in there did cause some serious engineering. Those express tracks were by no means cheap from what I read.
and it would have left many boarding passengers with the same predicament they have at, e.g., 59/Lex, with no (practical) option of waiting for whichever train happened to pull in first.
True. The only thing it would have helped with though is avoidng a second transfer further up or down the line for the L passengers using the 14th/6th transfer, bound for stations were the B or D go but the F doesn't such as Brighton, West End, Bronx, etc (again under normal MB service). It's a bit different than let's say waiting at 59th/Lex and just deciding whether to wait for the local or express. At least the Lexington's local and express do run the entire length of Manhattan together before going their seperate ways. The 6th Avenue riders may be a bit more specific about what line they would need to wait for, as the locals and expresses stay together for only a short amount of time compared to some other lines.
As a funny sidenote, while on the subject of the "predicament they have.....with no (practical) option of waiting for whichever train happened to pull in first". That instantly made me think of both of the subway stations at Penn Station. I always drive myself crazy about whether to wait on the express platform or the local platform....and then I ultimately always choose the wrong one, no matter which I choose!
At the IRT station, it's not too hard to run through the underpass if you find yourself waiting on the wrong platform. Your best bet is to wait at the tail end of the platform (south end for NB, north end for SB) -- but don't try that NB on a weekend, since access to the NB local platform at the south underpass is gated off on weekends.
The IND station is a more of a pain, since the underpasses inside fare control don't line up. If I need the E specifically, obviously I wait on the local platform. If I need the A/C, I'm inclined to wait on the express platform if I'm going north of 116th or south of Franklin, or on the local platform otherwise. If an E comes first, I take it to the next "normal" express station (42nd or 14th) so I can take the A or C, whichever comes first.
One Sunday evening I was on a NB A, going to 59th. At 42nd, a C pulled up on the local track. Acting on a hunch, I crossed to the C. I was right; the A hadn't even arrived at 59th by the time the C left. What was my hunch?
The IND station is a more of a pain
Yeah, it's the IND station I was mainly thinking of.
One Sunday evening I was on a NB A, going to 59th. At 42nd, a C pulled up on the local track. Acting on a hunch, I crossed to the C. I was right; the A hadn't even arrived at 59th by the time the C left. What was my hunch?
You maybe assumed the A was probably going to wait for the next E?
No, I doubt that's done often (the A already made a connection with one local; why wait for another?), and if it was the plan, I would have been able to tell by the holding lights. This was on a weekend (with no related GO's), which means that there was D service but no B service. My prediction was that the A might be held around 50th behind a D, and if that happened, the D would then be held at Columbus Circle for a connection with the C. I was 100% correct. On a weekday I would have stayed on the A, since the symmetric pattern (C held at 50th to let a B through, and B held at CC for a connection with the A) would be equally likely.
Well right now, there is no 6 Av express so its the F and V you have to ride [of course you know that]. While skipping 2 stops isn't much, it does save a few minutes plus I love that express run.
It doesn't save a few minutes. It saves about a minute, assuming no connections are made at either end. An express saves about half a minute for each stop skipped. (And, of course, it costs time for those trying to transfer at 14th Street.)
And expresses in rush hour just save large amounts of time. Why have everyone from the East Bronx come in on a 6 local, when many of can them get to a few minutes faster on a 6 express, while still allowing ample tph (approx. 12) on the local tracks?
It's different in other circumstances, especially at night, where the expresses save people a few minutes at the expense of giving people at the local stations 3 tph instead of 6 tph.
You missed the BMT ASTORIA LINE center track.
Heard on WINS that some of TWU-100's Executive Board members are "encouraging" the rank-and-file to REJECT the new contract settlement - it's basically the first-year-zero issue again.
How can the new contract be voted down? How can a member of the Executive Board publicly, or privately, disagree with the union's president? Isn't everybody supposed to just agree with Toussaint and vote the way he tells them to? (I became a cynic while working my way though college as a member of SEIU 32B/32J under Gus Bevona's dictatorship!)
according to a decision of the Central Comm. of the Russian Social Democratic Party (Bolshevik) later known as the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, once the Central Comm, establishes a 'correct' line, "deviation" is strictly forbidden. TWU however is here not there and not then. I for one am pleased to live in an era when the full text is out there on the web at TWU's site for ALL of us to read if we choose, and yesterday I did read most of it.
Ah, but READING the contract and VOTING to ratify it are two different things.
I ask again: Since Toussaint has agreed to the proposed contract (and thus effectively intructed the local's membership to ratify it), how can any member of the local's Executive Board say otherwise? Isn't Toussaint the boss? Aren't his orders supposed to be obeyed?
No the Rank dose not have to go agreed with Toussaint and go with the contract. I am not thing of vote yes for it. For what I have read about some of the thing it is all black mail. One thing is that to get an extra two AVA to be saved, you must save more then half your sick time within a one year time frame, over two years from both. This is so dame crazzy, that mean if I take off 7 days over one sick call that I do not get the AVA for that year. This could happen if I get a bad flue of a brooken leg or any other thing.
I also just heard that a menber of the TA Board agread to buy Toussaint a house somewere in the Jamica*or somewere like that.) if that the cast then he sold us out bigger the Willie James. Also Toussiant is not going out and telling people that the fair increase is not becouse of the raises we are getting.
So if this is what the Contract is like, then I will vote NO, and then there still can be a STRIKE.
Robert
Where did it say RTO gets two extra AVA's? That is for some of the other depts.
Isn't Toussaint the boss? Aren't his orders supposed to be obeyed?
Toussaint aint a boss. He is an elected officer who has negeotiated a contract the best he could (one hopes).
Those who as voted him to this position will not vote to accept or reject the fruits of his work.
What do you think this is, some sort of a mob racket.... it is a respected labor union.
Pssst: Wanna buy a BRIDGE?
[What do you think this is, some sort of a mob racket.... it is a respected labor union.]
Oops - methinks I touched a nerve.
As I noted in my original post on this topic, my cynicism regarding unions comes from having once been a member of SEIU 32B-32J. Under Gus Bevona's capable dictatorship, the union had only two purposes: (1) to enforce obedience, and (2) to line his family's pockets.
([What do you think this is, some sort of a mob racket.... it is a respected labor union.] Oops - methinks I touched a nerve. As I noted in my original post on this topic, my cynicism regarding unions comes from having once been a member of SEIU 32B-32J. Under Gus Bevona's capable dictatorship, the union had only two purposes: (1) to enforce obedience, and (2) to line his family's pockets.)
Yeah, I too had favorable ideas about unions before I was in one: Local 375, DC37. Where the ballots disappear if an insurgent candidate is on them, and many of the former officers are in jail for embezzlement.
The union was also bad for my health. They were collecting more than $600 from me every year, and all I got out of it was a catered Christmas lunch. So I went down there and tried to eat $600 worth of food every year. I've been on a diet ever since I changed jobs and got out of the union.
let me clarify. I live in Oakland Ca and am self employed as an electrician. My perspective is as a citizen, I am very happy that the "magic" of the Inernet not only allows us our hobby, BUT importantly allows ALL of us to read the contract language. As to whether any individual member of TWU 100 should vote aye or nay, THAT's WHAT SECRET BALLOTS ARE FOR. My comments about the CP were meant to make a crude comparison, not to express my attitude about what members should do.
I was getting nostalgic for the good old days when only the USSR had appointed leaders, and they say the USA won the cold war!?!?
Hereditary monarchy is a respected form of government.
I didn't vote for him. :)
The executive board is not voting agains the contract - at least not the entire board. There were 9 (NO) votes and two abstaintions. They've already registered their opinions but it's now the rank-&-file that are weighing in on the issue. Consolidation was one thing Willy James and Sonny Hall swore they'd never let happen. Also the gains in discipline and sick leave - ain't. The real kicker is the loss of the "No Lay-Off" clause. I said it before the newspapers but this contract ain't signed yet...
There were nine (9) NO votes of the Executive Board (2 abstains) one of the no votes is the number 3 man in charge of the union.
About a year ago on Sunday, my mom, brother and I were taking the train to NY for Church. It was a heavy, drizzling, gloomy morning when the interests of all interestendom were beginning to happen. We were relocated to the lower level, wooden platform for us to board when the train arrived on Track 2.
The train arrives, and we slowly pull out of the station, We switch over to track 3 and cruise along about 40 mph to Metropark. Somewhere in the middle, a conductor states over the microphone, "Track 4 for Metropark. Track 4. An orange, work diesel locomotive (AMTRAK) also passes by us en route.
We reach the switches south of Metropark, switch to track 4 (I have never had this experience before.)And I peered out the window and saw a "dead" AMTRAK train with about a 6-car consist of the new, Acela Regional "Aqua" color Amfleets was sitting on Track 1.
While still standing, I hear a noisy sputtering of another orange, AMTRAK diesel trundling up speedily on Track 3 northbound. We close doors, pull out, and we switch to Track 3, with the forever unknown two locomotives that have passed us for a "dead" reason. (Remember this is during a gloomy, heavy overcast, rainy morning)
We continue about 30-40mph to Rahway, and have a temporary setback for the switches to configure us to get back onto Track 1. We switch over 4 tracks, one after the other. (If someone had an aerial view, this would look interesting.) Everything was normal after that, with the orange locomotives never to be seen.
Can someone explain this ghostly phenomena? I don't know if someone will know but I will ask anyway.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Hey guys, this is kind of silly, but, when I type in a reply to a
message, and then go to preview to see it, and find mistakes,something odd happens. When I go "back" the message I typed in the reply box is gone!
Am I doing something wrong or is it something with my computer -
HP Pavillion 762 w/ Windows XP.
Thanks in advance,
Chuck Greene
I am not having this problem, I run XP on a GENERIC computer (wouldn't have an HP, compaq or an IBM as a GIFT!). It is more likely an issue of the browser, I am using Netscape 7.0 (with the Forms and Passwords TURNED OFF!), but I have had good success with the MSIE too. (as in also not as in v2.0) : )
Elias
>>> It is more likely an issue of the browser, <<<
And more particularly the browser cache. When you go to "Preview," your browser should save a copy of the previous page, with the additions you made in the message area. Then when you use the "back" button, your browser should display that cached image for you. If you have cache turned off, when you hit the "back" button the browser will get a new image from the web without the comments you added to the message area.
Tom
I don't have that problem (but have occasionally). What I would do if you put a lot of work into typing something is to right click, highliight what you typed, and press "copy" before you preview. This way the worst possible scenario would be that you would just have to paste it back if it happens not to be there when you go back.
That's what I learned to do (the hard way) especially if you are writing a long post.
Thanks, Chris. In fact, I started doing that ever since I had the problem. that way I can always paste it back in to the reply box.
Thanks for Elias's reply , also.
Chuck Greene
highliight what you typed, and press "copy" before you preview - GP38 Chris
I do that too, especially if I post a number of url's to Webshots pix. It's a real pain in the tusch to start over from scratch.
After you write a posting, Instead of previewing it, Read it over before posting.
That works good when checking for spelling errors (which I should check for more often), but sometimes if you put a photo or link in a post, it's a good idea to preview first.
It happens to me also once in a while. If you are typing a long post, I suggest you type it in a word file then copy/paste to the message box so you don't lose it [that's what I do for long posts].
I've been doing that lately. Thanks!
Chuck Greene
Here's the story from WHDH-TV.
Will they ever return, will they ever return? Remember the Kingston Trio song about poor old Charlie? This is yet another delay for the Type 8 cars, which are badly needed...
Chuck Greene
How are those low floor cars constructed. Do they have trucks like the PCC cars, or that there ditterent wheel arrangements. Dave has some very nice pics of cars in Lyons France, but they do not seem to have trucks.
Maybe it is the lack of trucks that give the cars difficulty running on old boston tracks. It looks like those Lyons cars are running on all new trackage.
Elias
Why are Type 8's badly needed? Are the Boeings unreliable already?
AEM7
repeat after me ACCESSIBLE
The center truck for the type 8's (the C-truck) is unpowered and is not a "truck" but four independent wheel and axles mounted to the center frame of the type 8 car. INFO PROVIDED BY NUMBER 8 LOW FLOOR CAR - LRV'S FOR THE MBTA BY BREDA COSTRUZIONI FERROVIARE VOL.O-01 Sunshine and Stevie
Wow... They were still dealing with those Type-8's 2-1/2 years ago when I was living in Boston. (Luckily I got to ride in a couple before they were all yanked from service.) Say what you want about the Bombardier R-142's... Things could be worse.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I need to know what type of train each car is for the captions for my website, as well as the operators. All picutres were taken in England. Thanks very much!!
#1 at Harrow on the Hill, I believe this is a Clubman 168
#2 at London Paddington, First Great Western
#3 at Bath Spa
#4 at London Paddington
#5 at Bath Spa
#6 at Farringdon, I believe this is a Class 319 EMU, Thameslink
(1) Chiltern Trains, Clubman DMU class 168/1 -- Adtranz construction, around 1998.
(2) The "High Speed Train", or HST. In the old days, class 252 would have been the designation (Western Region HST's). Now they are numbered separately as class 43 powercars and Mk.III coaches. These were delivered between 1975 and 1979.
(3) Class 150/2 "Sprinter" in Regional Railways colours. Delivered 1984-86. 150/1 is the version without the gangway doors. These were built by BREL (British Rail Engineering Limited).
(4) Class 166 "Networker Turbo" in Thames Trains colours (I assume). Adtranz construction, about 1994.
(5) Class 153 -- these were built as two-car units, class 155, as an alternative design to class 156. They were crap, so when they went for squadron service they ordered more 156's.
(6) You are correct.
AEM7
Damn, you got there first! #1 (the Class 168) is the best train on the rails at the moment, running on the best line (London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill (- Kidderminster)) - not a bad shot either, for a moving train!
You probably know the answer to the one thing I never quite figured out about this kinda terminology: is there ANY difference in usage between the terms IC125 and HST, other than the former seems to have died out?
Damn, you got there first! #1 (the Class 168) is the best train on the rails at the moment, running on the best line (London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill (- Kidderminster))
I personally found it amusing that WMATAGOAGH called them "English Engines" -- how quaint, when they are blatantly not engines. I personally have a dislike for the class 168's, if only because they are just like the cheap-ass class 170's. Perhaps they do perform well, but they don't look too endearing to me. I much preferred the class 166's -- these could be decked out nicely, too, like the Chiltern 168's.
If you would ask me about Chiltern Valley, that's something else :) But it's off-topic.
is there ANY difference in usage between the terms IC125 and HST
I don't know, to be honest with you. HST is what they are called now, and the timings info they have are shown as HST+7, HST+8 and HST+9 (basically two class 43's with 7, 8, or 9 coaches). Perhaps IC125 referred to the 'sets' and HST implies that the sets could be taken apart and reconstituted? I don't know. I know that the IC125 designation was dropped when Intercity took over the operations and rebranded the whole fleet with the Swallow logo. Although the class 91's were unofficially referred to as the Intercity 225, they were never branded as such. I suppose Intercity Marketing decided that the 225 branding is naff, and that's when they decided to drop the whole 125/225 thing.
(Wow, I just caught myself sounding British -- "naff"?)
AEM7
I personally found it amusing that WMATAGOAGH called them "English Engines" -- how quaint,
Hehe!
If you would ask me about Chiltern Valley, that's something else :)
Pray, tell me about Chiltern Valley - if it's too off topic use jad29@le.ac.uk
(Wow, I just caught myself sounding British -- "naff"?)
Old habits die hard!
Thanks! I only rode the train from Paddington to Bath Spa and I already forget what that was. My National Rail pics should be up this week at www.orenstransitpage.com.
The last Acela set is still not in service, are they still testing ? same question on the MARC HHP-8's a few got delivered almost 7 months ago to Philly for testing, so whats the holdup ?
Engineering Department layed off or so ???
For the train that was delivered as the second prototype, and was used for "testing", and needed to go back to the factory to become the last one to be delivered, read "Christmas Tree".
The 2nd prototype is not a 2nd prototype; it's a parts supply to get the fleet into service. It usually needs overhaul before it is finally "delivered".
AEM7
This set went back and came completly rebuilt from Bombardier about 6 months ago , its in its final delivery, not used for parts.
The J was supposed to be single-tracked this weekend between Essex and Chambers, but when I rode it late this afternoon, it was running normal (I rode it from Chambers to Canal and got off there in disgust). Was the GO cancelled all weekend? What about the late night GO this past week?
the g was single tracked last night, and apparently every night till the 30th...
the J i'm not sure about, though I can tell you that much new track has gone in on what will be the new northbound track btw. bowery and canal. not sure about south of that, but if i had to guess i'd say that by the summer the track will be realigned and the east platforms at bowery and canal closed. (unless signal work takes a long time, of course. anyone got any ideas on that? I don't believe much signal work has been done on the 'new' northbound track...)
Yes, it's true, despite all efforts of City Hall, unSound Transit, and Initiative 695, Seattle will be getting a monorail after all. The initiative passed by less than 2% or 800 votes, but so far the Sound Popular Monorail Authority is acting as if it was a unanimous vote, they're off to a flying start, most of this is helped by the fact that they basic engineering work has been done for the past 3 or more years while it was the Elevated Transpotation Corp running things.
The current plans call for the Green Line monorail to run 14 miles from NW 85th and 15th NW Avenues, north of Ballard and Green Lake down 15th ave, across the Ship Canal on a dedicated ROW Cable Stayed Bridge, further down 15th to Elliot, then follow Elliot, or possibly the BNSF tracks down to Broad St or so, where it will cut to the east, and head for the 1962 Fair Grounds. It will join up with the Seattle Center Monorail on the grounds.
Currently the SPMA is unsure of whether the Green line will simply take over the 1962's two tracked line from the Fair Grounds to Westlake Center, or if the 5th ave section will be triple tracked with two tracks for the Greenline and one for a heritage 1962 monorail to be preserved. Given the bottleneck that occurs at the EMP, this looks difficult at best.
In downtown it will continue south down 5th ave past Westlake Center, and finally pass King St Station and the new Stadiums at SODO station. From there the monorail will head out over the Duamish waterway, crossing it somewhere in the vicinty of the West Seattle Freeway, possibly near the site of the old Spokanne Street viaduct that served the old Seattle Trolley cars. I am unclear as to the southern terminal, I'm not very familiar with the area, but I think eventually it's supposed to end up at the Fauntleroy ferry docks, allowing the people who commuter from Southworth and Vashon Island to leave their cars at the dock and ride as pedestrians, which will ease traffic on the West Seattle Freeway.
In any event, it's great to see Seattle finally get some actual fixed transit, it's been too long since they went all bus, and this is every bit as big as the building of the first elevateds in New York were, all I can hope is that it survives to breed offspring like the New York Elevateds did. The monorail has the oppertunity to serve a whole host of communities in the Seattle area, all without adding bus traffic to the streets as the LINK's take over of the Bus Tunnel will do.
Right now the Monorail will only really serve a handful of communities north and south of the city, still more than the south-only LINK can claim. Moreover, the Monorail is easily extendable, the first 1962 monorail's 1.2 mile ROW was constructed in 10 months with little disruption of traffic on 5th ave below it. The Green line could serve as a starter for eventual monorails running along I-5, across the 520 or I-90 Floating Bridges, bringing much needed transit to the east side of Lake Washington, and a line could be run down to Rainier Valley, to provide Transit Service in the event that people come to their senses and realize that the Bus Tunnel provides a much needed service, and that the LINK doesnt make sense.
As to what will run on the Green Line, that's still completely up in the air. All that can be hoped for is that Bombardier's POS Dizzyland MVIs being used in Las Vegas aren't chosen. I'm rooting for a Hitachi design, the Type 2000, similar to what runs on the Tokyo Hadena 16km, 10 station monorail. The design features the same Alweg characteristics of walk-through trainsets from the Seattle monorails. Each trainset of some 4 cars can be coupled into larger cars, and end doors allow a transfer from one coupled trainset to another, as is familiar to New York subway riders. Imagine an R142 5 car set setup so that the 5 cars could be walked through at will, with no doors, and then at each end of the 5 cars, you could walk through to the next trainset.
Of course, I should mention that Seattle has a terrible history with transit. Seattle, like most prewar cities, had an extensive Trolley car and cable car system, of which NOTHING remains today, in 1941 when the first trolley busses appeared from Brill, the wooden trolley cars were literally burned where they stood in the yard, rails were ripped up and the entire system was completely gone by the end of the war. The Trolley and Cable Car system had never made a profit, and after the city took them over, it went even more downhill, finally, when they got busses, Seattle saw a way to cut their losses and run, and completely abandoned the trolleys, the PCC came way too late for the Seattle sytem. Even the basic idea of the Green line is nothing new, Seattle passed on it back in the 1960s, when ALWEG wanted to build them a system, free of charge, so long as ALWEG got to run it. Seattle refused, and all that was left standing was the Worlds Fair Monorail, even ALWEG quickly disappeared. There were also plans to have Light Rail running up and down I-5 when it was built, but those were passed on as well.
More recently attempts to get transit, even BRT up and going have been hard. The Bus Tunnel had HUGE problems with it's cut and cover construction, which was originally supposed to be TBM bored. However the muck that they had to drill through brought it to a halt, the machines were dug out, and the tunnel was finished with cut and cover construction. Also the fast ferry service to Bremerton from Seattle proved to be too fast for the residents of Rich Passage, who had it slowwed down after they claimed beach erosion, adding 15 minutes to the advertised 30 minute trips, and only saving 45 minutes off the car ferries.
Given these past failures, it will be interesting to see how the Seattle Popular Monorail Authority will do against the Seattle Eco-Nimbys that have quashed so many other proposals in the past decade, and the automatic hex that all Seattle transit systems seem to have placed on their head at conception. I think that the Green Line will be built, however, it will be interesting to see how much it will end up costing, and if it is successful in getting people out of their cars.
Monorail expansion would be nice, but the exceedingly close vote on the initiative - which merely called for a study, with no funding actually allocated or taxes imposed - doesn't bode well. You'd have to wonder just how the voters would react when push comes to shove and they're asked to come up with money.
I swear it's Seattle's only choice, throw up your hands and raise your voice!
MONORAIL! MONORAIL! MONORAIL!
But Main Street's still all cracked and broken.
Sorry mom, the mob has spoken.
MONORAIL! MONORAIL! MONORAIL!
MONORAIL!
Mono... D'OH!
!!!! I love that episode!
Let's hope that Seattle actually builds this monorail system that they propose. Maybe the vintage 1962 monorail system will actually become a major force in Seattle's transit system once it is expanded. Perhaps the original trainsets will run where they never did before.
#3 West End Jeff
A few days ago, I spoke with a conductor on the N train, who said that the construction work on the Manhattan Bridge was so far ahead of schedule that the North Side tracks could be available for use as early as April 2003. He said that the MTA was working on the revised train routing that would result from this. True?
I don't know the answer to your question, but can lightning strike twice? First the 1/9 Line between Chambers and South Ferry is reopened WAY ahead of originally thought, and now possibly the Manhattan Bridge may reopen ahead of schedule?
Wow, hell might have frozen over......maybe there is hope for a 2nd Ave subway after all!
Don't get your hopes up just yet ;-). When (if) ground is re-broken for the 2 Av subway in 2 years, then I have hope just like you but if not well we know the result :-\.
Wow, hell might have frozen over......maybe there is hope for a 2nd Ave subway after all!
I don't *know* about hell.... but NORTH DAKOTA has surely frozen over!
Elias
Well they ought to freeze over the Montague Tunnel while they're about it. That was I know the Sea Beach will get over the Manny B in 2004. I just don't trust those TA bums to do the right thing. And all the while my friend Q Brightliner is moaning to beat the band because his Q might have to go into the Montague rathole. Oh, poor Q! It's ok for my train to be marooned in that hellhole but pity your poor Brighton Q having to undergo such a travesty. Well wake up and smell the freaking coffee and understand what the Sea Beachers have had to endure for years.
Hey Fred, maybe we should freeze the Montague Tunnel - I guess for you it's the closest thing you have to compare to hell.
I think Fred would be perfectly happy to see the rats freeze to death.:)
Say Fred, do you know what ESPN Classic is showing this morning? A feature on Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world".
I'll bet you remember that day as though it were yesterday.
I don't know why you guys hate the Montague Tunnel so much.. If it wasn't for the Montague tunnel, if you thought the service was hetic than, it most surely be a disaster to get from Blkyn to Man.. visa versa... Anyway, The Montague has held everything together! and thank GOD for it! Otherwise, where would we be without it?
N Bwy
I don't hate the Montague Tunnel, and I know it is a very needed/useful link. But if I don't have to ride it, I don't. For example, I went to college for two years in Downtown Brooklyn before transferring colleges. I lived near the M line in Ridgewood at the time. For the first week or so, I took the M straight to Lawrence Street. I hated it. After some experimentation, I decided to get off at Essex Street, and catch the F to Jay-Street Borough Hall. It was much faster, and less miserable (not to mention Lawrence Street is such a depressing station also). I actually gave up my one seat ride on the M, for the M/F combination at Delancey. It averaged out faster too, even including wait time for the second train. I was very happy with that routing. The only thing better would have been the direct Ridgewood to Downtown Brooklyn service the Myrtle El once provided, but that's a whole other story. I always thought it was stupid to have to take the subway to Manhattan, just to come back to Brooklyn again......
Hey Chris, mine has been a similar story. I usually avoid the Montague rathole by taking the West End to 36th Street and then get off to catch my Sea Beach to 86th Street. I then can burn some of those calories I consumed by taking a brisk walk to Coney Island. However, I hope that by 2004 I can burn calories other ways and take the Sea Beach over the Manny B to Coney Island.
I know its crazy to ride from Brooklyn to go through Manhattan then back to Brooklyn, especially when I go to Jamaica on the J where I take the Q to Canal then the J but its well worth it. Before the Q went through the bridge again, I would take the F to Delancey to the J at Essex or take the Q to Times Square [which I usually do] but then I hate going through the smelly Times Sq corridor between the Broadway line & 8 Av line, where its hot & smells like shampoo mixed with sweaty armpits [I think you know what I'm talking about]. That's what makes me miss the W 4 St connection btw the old 6 Av Q and the 8 Av line.
I would use ANY transfer and alternative to avoid using the extra slow Montague tunnel when I don't have to use it but come next year on weekends the Q loses the bridge for a year or whenever this goes on.
The only thing better would have been the direct Ridgewood to Downtown Brooklyn service the Myrtle El once provided, but that's a whole other story. I always thought it was stupid to have to take the subway to Manhattan, just to come back to Brooklyn again......
Yeah, don't get me started on that "story" again!
I hate the Montague Tunnel because my Sea Beach is stuck in it and I want it back on the Manny B where it once traversed and where it really belongs. Besides, have you ever look into that rathole from the railfan window. Go at least three stops and you will definately see at least one disgusting looking rodent plying its trade. The place is full of them. Keep the Montague Tunnel but just get my N train out of there.
I don't usually go further than Canal Street.. and I'm coming out of Astoria.. So I guess you can figure the Montague tunnel.. (or anything that leads to Brooklyn) doesn't concern me as much as what serves Astoria Blvd.. Which OF COURSE is my PRIZE "W" and "N" line.. Sometimes I wonder why I still call myself "N Broadway Line" since I hardly use it.. Since it doesn't run as often as the "W" line.. And I usually just wait a few extra minutes just to ride the W Broadway Express.. But if everything goes as planned, I might just switch my handle to reflect the line I use most.. The W Line ... Sorry Fred.. is that a west end line... hahahaha.. well that irrelevant.. as far as I'm concern ... it will always be a Broadway regardless...
N Broadway Line
Obviously I don't want you to change your handle. However, it is your right to do so. It just means, however, that we have one less Sea Beach man on Subtalk. A pity.
Er....your coffee's burning, Fred.
I don't drink coffee Q. Orange Juice mixed with Cranberry Juice and a splash of orange carbonated soda is my drink of choice. I knew I would get you with that message. Merry Christmas to you and if you do not celebrate it, then just a happy holiday to you.
Merry Christmas to you #4 Sea Beach Fred from #3 West End Jeff. I have some news for you concerning the North side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. They will not be in full service until the Spring 2004.
#3 West End Jeff
That's a very interesting drink Fred, and I'd like to try it with you some day. Thanks for trying to get my attention. A very merry Christmas to you Fred and to all my Christian friends. But it's a regular work day where I come from now.....
Well Fred, it seems like Q Brightliner does't have to worry about his Q traveling via Montague RatHole cause I have been overheard serval rumors from the public and TWU that the 2004 service will be same as in the 80s. B D runs on the Northside and Q N on the southside. Possibly W will also remains on the bridge as well Or T might reappear. The Montague Ratholes will be serve by the only M and R in 2004. Wanna know why? M Train represent Montague and R Train represent Ratholes. Now everyone think "Montague Street Tunnel" is aka "Montague Ratholes" And been there for many centuries. So, Sit back and relax and see whats specialties TA will have in stored for all of us in 2004.
I have a strong suspicion that the W will either be dropped or relegated to short turns at Whitehall St, possibly either during rush hours only or weekdays only a la the old EE.
W = Whitehall plus any other catchy nicknames associated with that route.
Bring back the mighty B ... we don't need a dubya train. :)
As long as dubya doesn't use a yellow dubya sign as a reelection campaign ad, I won't mind.
Unless it's rerouted to Mexico, I don't think he gives a rat's arse about the Dubya train. Now the SEA BITS ... plenty of rat's arses there. :)
Maybe the commercials will be made in Mexico.
Stop! making fun of the W line!!! It serves a very useful purpose..
Idiots!
N Bwy
"I have a strong suspicion that the W will either be dropped or relegated to short turns at Whitehall St, possibly either during rush hours only or weekdays only a la the old EE."
I sure hope they don't drop the W entirely.. The W still has a very reliable purpose at Astoria.. I wouldn't mind using it as a short-run since I usually don't go past Canal Street anyway.
N Broadway Line
I agree, I hope the W doesn't get dropped; it probably won't and this would allow N's to go express via bridge in Manhattan again[if everything goes as we want it to]. That is true it has brought increased service into Astoria to run with the N [at leat the Astoria express is history (for now?)]. Plus the Broadway line is busy 7 days a week and local service in particular needs an increase in service.
If I recall correctly, the N used to be two trains: the Montague local and the Manny B express, with the Q being an additional express service. The R was strictly a local.
It will be interesting to see exactly what they do when the Manny B opens in 2004.
"If I recall correctly, the N used to be two trains: the Montague local and the Manny B express, with the Q being an additional express service. The R was strictly a local."
The 1978 map shows a Sea Beach N to Continental and a Whitehall to Continental N; none through the Montague Tunnel. In previous years the Whitehall train was called the EE.
I don't see on any old maps an Astoria to Whitehall service to supplement Astoria to Brooklyn service. But I believe Astoria traffic has gotten a lot heavier and such a train is justified in 2004.
Thank you for correcting me on that.
In 1990 when the N was back on the bridge for a while, there were a few rush hour trains that went local to Canal, I believe. I had said that this basically was the future W in disguise.
As for the final 2004 plan, it depends on the budget. If they are in cutback mode, (as they were during the mid-90's bridge forecasts), they would swing the Astoria peak direction trains to the local and tunnel at Prince St., but the other direction would remain bridge and express.
That would cover pretty much all the ground of an N exp. via bridge and W local to Whitehall.
I think the W should be a supplement to the B. I noticed that the West End is a little bit busier as of late, especially when I rode the W on Friday to Stillwell.
A little busier? You mean there was somebody else in your car?
(My impression of off-peak W ridership in Brooklyn, based on nothing other than my own observations on the train, is that it is exceptionally low, lower than almost any other branch in the system.)
Not really needed, you have the M for that. Now making the W a special peak direction express via West End might be the only way for the W to run via West End with the B w/o getting rid of the M [or if you plan on moving the M let it go back to the Brighton]. I thought this out in a earlier post under the thread "Middle tracks on......". I posted it Saturday morning around 11 or 12pm; for those who look at this post, take a look at the Middle tracks thread and tell me what you guys think.
I would drink to that and so would Q. However, we'd be drinking different brews. I hope you're right.
Well at least with the new lighting being installed in the Montague Rat-nnel, the T/O can see how the rats get run over by steel better.
BURN BABY BURN!
I don't think they want to see the blood that may splatter on the rail but it is not as greusome as in the outdoor stations[particularly the Brighton] where pigeons get run over YUCK! The Montague is a poor excuse for a tunnel, bad lighting and the masses of rats that call it home.
No need to rehab or put new lighting on the "Montague Rat-Holes" or "Montague Rat-House." Save the tax dollar. Pay Binny Bin Bin Laden $500 to bomb that thing off the map. Maybe he can live there with the rats (AHAHAHAHAHA..LOL).
BURN BABY BURN!
Hey Express, I could have written that myself. A real gem. It gives you the real lowdown of what I think of that vermin infested tunnel. They ought to seal it up.
If the montague tunnel needs upgrading, than it should be... But to attack such a viable resource, shows your lack of insightfulness.
N Broadway Line
It would be more exotic if it were Binny Ladis's Blood that splatter on the rail. I say capture the S.O.B. and BROUGHT TO NYC. TIED HIM TO MONTAGUE' RAIL and ram him over with the high speed R32 E Train. Let the SOB know the R32 E Train that kill him is to remind him of the 9/11, WTC Tower and it victims.
It is time to DESTROY "THE SOCIETY'S S.O.B"
No, I think its better to let the masses of rats in the rathole get him :o).
I think the rats would look upon Osama as a blood brother and welcome him with open arms. I'll take the bomb.
The Q had to go through that Montague rathole back in 1995 during the 2nd Manny-B project only b/c the south side tracks and Canal St were in horrid shape. But N riders and your line went through a whole lot of disgusting N service over the years and hopefully, the MTA will make sense & restore the N on the South side in late 2003 or 2004.
OH POOOR Q MY FOOT!!! The Q has always got preferential treatment.. First it was sixth Avenue.. now it's on the Broadway line.. WITH MUCH SERVICE THAN THE N LINE! And, if it wasn't for the W line... I WOULD BE SCREEMING EVEN LOUDER!!!!
SUFFER Q LINE!! SUFFFFEEERRRR!!!! like we been suffering for over 15 years!!!! now!!!
N Broadway Line
The Q did NOT get better treatment [OK it did] but it is the busiest line of the Broadway line and has more service, & ridership than the N and the alternate was to route it via Montague. As for the Q, it got bounced to 6 Av since it wouldn't be wise to run 4 lines through the rathole [M,N,R,Q it would have been] and it was "temporary". But I agree your line has suffered for a long time and in 2004 we'll see what happens in the future once the Manny-B is done. Damn, my Q line has to go through the rathole on weekends next year :-(.
Well Mr. N Broadway, if I had a medal I would pin it on you right now. I can't fathom all the pissing and moaning from the Brighton fans about their poor condition. What the hell have they been thinking about us for the last decade and a half? Join the club Q fans and see how the other half lives. Maybe then you will see our point of trying to get our N train a little more respect that it currently gets.
Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
#4 Sea Beach Fred will be estatic if the North side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge opened up ahead of schedule. Then his line will be express at least in Manhattan and probably in part of Brooklyn also. Then you can have abother fast train to Coney Island, Oops! Almost to Coney Island since they're still doing work at the Stillwell Ave. terminal.
#3 West End Jeff
Seems like every time NYCT does work at or near Stillwell terminal, the N train is the first one that gets the cut back to 86th Street first (remember the work done over the Neptune Ave viaduct back in 1992-1994?). But why not restore the abandoned section on the 6th Ave/Manhattan side of the Bridge where the tunnels were used to link directly to Canal St/Broadway station, pre Chrystie St./1967 connection. That was one mistake NYCT did, because if work ever was needed on the south/Broadway side of the bridge, there will be always one of the 3 lines that will traverse via. the north side tracks and then divert to the Broadway express tracks once it reaches the tunnel under Canal Street. So 2 lines (B and D) will continue up to Grand Street while the N or Q will go left to Canal Street. Do you hear this Fred, I talked about your line.
The decision has been made !!!!! The NYCT will opt to NOT restore revenue service over the A/B tracks until spring 2004 to coincide with the re-opening of Stillwell terminal...
Am I reading this correctly? The bridge will be ready for full service this coming spring, but the north side tracks will gather rust for another year until Stillwell is fully reopened?
I suppose I can understand why having an average of 1-2 major service changes per year is undesireable, but ISTM the advantages would outweigh this concern.
Will anything change at all? Maybe the Grand Street shuttle will be based out of CI rather than Jamaica, now that it will have easy access to the bridge?
ISTM?
ISTM it stands for it seems to me.
I had never heard of it before and I didn't look it up, I swear!
ISTM you are correct.
I honestly have no idea if it's a standard acronym or if I made it up on my own -- but if I made it up, I made it up a long time ago and ISTM it should be a standard acronym.
Actually, a Subtalker is CLAIMING that the bridge will be ready, based on what he was told by a Conductor. Information based on crewroom scuttlebutt is notoriously unreliable. Can anybody here with access to first-hand information confirm that the bridge will be ready? I know for a fact that the service plan isn't ready yet.
David
The NYC DoT Web site implies the bridge work (at least the north upper roadway) will be done in July 2003, but it specifically says that restoration of full subway service is up to NYCT:
"In order to perform the work activities in Contract #10, it will be necessary to implement two major service interruptions. The first will be the suspension of B, D and Q subway service across the north tracks of the bridge during reconstruction of the north subway framing structure. The transit structure reconstruction began on August 1, 2001 and will continue for approximately thirty months. It should be noted that this schedule refers to NYCDOT construction work only. New York City Transit (NYCT) rerouted subway service effective July 22, 2001. Also, the schedule to restore subway service once construction is complete will be determined by NYCT. During this reconstruction phase, the B, D and Q transit lines will be rerouted."
The aforementioned Contract #10 includes activities more than the north upper roadway.
Thanks for the link. I looked at it -- hasn't been updated in several months (it mentions that closure of the North Upper Roadway was SCHEDULED for August 2002 -- anybody know if that's when it happened?). As far as I am aware, NYCT isn't planning to resume full service on the bridge until early 2004 -- maybe to coordinate with Stillwell, maybe to allow for some delays in completion of the bridge work, maybe both, maybe neither!
David
You're welcome, David. Hey, I gotta do something to keep busy while talking on the radio about the storm.
Early this morning, my report was sponsored by SUBWAY. Truly, Transit and Weather Together.
heh heh.
David, in the MTA anything is possible, you should know that. I think a 2003 reopening is TOO EARLY and I predict that the target date for reopening the North side would be early 2004 as well.
Actually, a Subtalker is CLAIMING that the bridge will be ready, based on what he was told by a Conductor. Information based on crewroom scuttlebutt is notoriously unreliable.
The SubTalker I was responding to was Train Dude, who has access to more reliable information than the average SubTalker. He seemed to be suggesting that the OP was correct.
I know for a fact that the service plan isn't ready yet.
Good! More time for us SubTalkers to come up with pie-in-the-sky proposals based not on ridership patterns but rather on which unused express tracks we want to see used.
Seriously, are any components of the service plan ready to be shared with us yet, or are we going to have to be patient a bit longer?
"Train Dude" reported that the service plan utilizing both sides of the Manhattan Bridge would not take effect until the spring of 2004. On that score, he may be correct. He did not say when the bridge would be ready; the Conductor cited by the original poster (who was NOT "Train Dude") claimed the bridge would be ready in the spring of 2003 and that the service plan was being developed.
The service plan IS being developed (and no, I have no new information to report as to what it entails), but it would be difficult if not impossible to finish the plan, start writing the schedules, present the plan to the Board, get permission to hold public hearings, hold the hearings, get a final decision from the Board, tweak the schedules based on the Board's approved final plan, submit the schedules to the Union for its comments (as required contractually), produce a final version for crews to "pick," and implement the pick within the next six months or so -- all this assuming, of course, that the Conductor is correct and the bridge is usable by then, which is a huge assumption.
David
You bring up some excellent points. Designing and implementing a service plan is a BIG deal. It's good that they're starting now; assuming that the bridge is useable by 2004 is not a risky leap, though. The current contract work has gone well since its start and there's no reason to believe that NYCDOT will suddenly deviate from the first-class work its crews are doing.
The city deserves a lot of credit for this job done well so far. I hope that NYC Transit will complement that with a first-class service plan.
Wow, that's silly, the bridge will be ready, but they want to delay the reopening due to Stillwell?.....So much for the hope for the 2nd Ave Subway from my previous post.
Waiting for a full year before Stillwell Av reopens to reopen the North side Manny-B tracks I agree with you and it doesn't sound sensible to me. I don't know if you read my reply but I told you so! I told you not to get too happy with the 2 Av subway unless they actually break ground again in a few years [or ever].
Forget about breaking ground! We do not need any more meaningless ceremonies. Start building the darn thing. Get the bulldozers and derricks in there and start construction.
P.S. I think that it needs express service. But that's just one opinion.
Tell that to the MTA. I agree they should stop holding off the damn project and start already this is how project overruns cost them so much money as well. I feel it needs exprress service as well but the proposed stations are spaced out every 15 blocks or something like that so it MAY not be necessary but increased capacity would be better.
The way the stations are spaced, express service probably wouldn't be necessary for the 2nd Ave subway. Although I feel they should at least build in the ability for provisions of adding two more tracks if they needed to in the future. But, I'd be happy with the just the two tracks. Unfortunately, we've come full circle again with the 2nd Ave subway. It seems that every time as soon as they are about to cross over the mountain of building the SAS, an economic downturn occurs and the project is scrapped. It happened in the 20'w with the original plans, and again and again until here we are in 2002 and it seems like that may happen again. Hopefully I am wrong, but it seems like the light is glowing dimmer, once again for the SAS. They have been trying to build the 2nd Ave for over 70 years.
The best shot of building the 2 Av subway was in the 1970's when they were real serious about it but then the doom of 1975 had killed a consistent chance of it being built and now we shall wait even more. The *light* for building the 2 Av subway is dim like Chambers St 8-), its been rejected/put off quite a few times, in 1929, the failed promise to build it in 1940 when the el was due to close, the bond rejection of 1951 then the crisis of 1975, then the $3,8 billion rejection a few years ago but I think it MAY start in a few years.
Nothing has changed yet. If no ground is broken in 2004, I'll start to worry. Otherwise, things are still on schedule.
The Second and Third Els were torn down. Will the Second Avenue Subway, as planned, have the capacity of the two Els it is replacing?
The Second and Third Els were torn down. Will the Second Avenue Subway, as planned, have the capacity of the two Els it is replacing?
Probably not, but it sure will have more capacity than what is on 2nd and 3rd Ave now. The third Ave el should not have been torn down until a SAS was built. We probably would have had one by now, because I'm sure there would have been a great push to do it if it meant that the EL would be removed only after a SAS was built.
Four tracks would be ideal, but I guess we should be happy if we even get two!
We should be happy if it ever gets built! I agree the 3 Av el shouldn't have been torn down, it seemed like the 3 Av el was the strongest of the old 4 Manhattan els since it was not torn down until 1955, then the Bronx portion was gone in 1973.
actually the second ave el was. they removed it before the 3rd, because they said that it would be replaced buy a subway. the real reasonwas that it was in much better shape than the third ave el, and so in 1955, they said that it was falling apart. If the second ave el was kept it would have lasted much lo9nger.
Four tracks would be ideal, but I guess we should be happy if we even get two!
If the line is only going to serve Manhattan, then two tracks is all that is needed. I would bend the tracks west at 125th street to the Hudson River so that there would be a 125th Street crosstown line in addition to the Second Avenue Subway.
In my dreams there is also a line that runs north on 3rd Avenue the the Bronx to Fordham University.
In less space that it would take to build a three track line, a two track line with gantlet tracks could provide an express train, albeit it could not pass a local. The express would leave immediately ahead of the local, and it would run the length of the express run catching up to the leading local just before 68th Street. All the gantlet would do is to pull the express about 18 inches away from the platform edge so that it could fly through the stations, but as far as signals are concerned, the trains would be operating on the same track.
But even this is far to complicated, so I am resigned to a two track main lion on Second Avenue.
Elias
The Second and Third Els were torn down. Will the Second Avenue Subway, as planned, have the capacity of the two Els it is replacing?
Yes.
They may have had six-tracks between them, but both of those els were served by IRT-sized cars in 5-car trains.
Well, the els were torn down long ago and ridership patterns had changed dramatically since then. I don't think it would have the same capacity since the 2 Av subway is designed for 2 tracks. Its main puropse though is to provide much needed relief to the Lexington Av line but if it were 4 tracks, that would be even better.
It's good news that the north-side repairs are proceeding well. As to the rumors about delaying the reopening due to Stillwell construction, I would take those with a big grain of salt. Perhaps the conductor missed something in the translation; a query letter to the MTA would be worthwhile.
My posting did not come from crewroom scuttlebutt. It came from senior RTO management. I heard that the bridge would be ready in 2003. I asked when I should anticipate getting 60 cars back from Coney Island in preparation for the resumption of regular D service. I was told not before 2004 as planned.
I stand corrected, then. However, just because DOT is finished with its portion of the bridge work, that doesn't mean that NYCT will be ready -- there will still be track work, etc. to do.
By the way, folks, it's going to get worse before it gets better -- for much of this coming year, there will be NO Manhattan Bridge service on weekends. It won't even be done under a General Order -- it'll be part of the regular schedules!
David
B division t/o's and c/r's would look for this to be reflected in the new work programs in which 2/3/02 is the anticipated start of actual picking of jobs.
I think '03 was meant, not '02, but in any case I wouldn't expect to see Sixth Avenue Manhattan Bridge service in that pick.
David
Oh no! But hold on David, how are you so sure of this? Are you sure that this may happen next year and what sense would that make possibly running Q's through Montague?
I am one hundred percent certain of it. The information was given to me by a Superintendent who is part of NYCT's general order coordinating committee. The reason is that the bridge will be unavailable on weekends for several months because of the reconstruction project. Since the Brighton is the most heavily used "Southern Division BMT" line it certainly makes sense to run Q trains via the tunnel, rather than truncate them in Brooklyn someplace.
David
How can you truncate the Q line? (as it is being done on the N line now). Truncating the line requires at least one crossover, and the Q line has only one double crossover south of Prospect Park. There are no switches it can relay back above this station before it enters the bridge. And no line can use the Lawrence Street double crossover either, it would severly impede train service. So that's why the Brighton line is a direct connection on Manhattan (any way it travels, via. the bridge or through a slow rathole tunnel.) 24/7. And people will NOT stand for constant weekend shuttle bus service between PP and Atlantic/Pacific either.
I agree, you cannot truncate the Q, its just too busy and I doubt that would happen. The most likely scenario is that our Q line would have to experience the rathole for the first time in 8 years :-( [not including GO's]. It would run all stops from Dekalb Av to Canal St then switch before Prince St and run express to 57 St.
And share a rathole with two other lines too. Weekend service most likely would have to be cut back to ease train traffic. So the Q line may operate every 10 minutes as opposed to the 8 minute headways now. And MAN is it soooooooo SLOW traveling through the Montague Street Rat-nel
I really hope a reduction in Q train service doesn't happen, that will just be moronic. Then it has to navigate through the Rat infested tunnel and through the notorious slowdown btw Whitehall and Canal St :-( but come next year we Q riders will have no choice but its only weekends so it isn't too bad but not too great neither.
What would have to be done in the Montague Tunnel to increase train speeds through it?
Getting the rats permission to send another intruder through it. I think they are already chapped having two interlopers barging in on their territory.
Hahaha LOL! Seriously Fred, your train doesn't "deserve" to run through that rathole and soon my Q line will have to go through the slow torture on weekends next year as well so you're not line the only one; heck you think your line had it bad the R been running through there forever, the M has to use it weekdays and recently the W was siphoned there from the flip-flop with the N weekends & late nights. But damn, your line had to go through that for over 10 years at least the Q will go through on weekends only for about a year.
It's not the tunnel that's the problem. It's the extra 2 miles of route length from Dekalb to Canal, the extra 5 stations, and the sharp curves on either side of City Hall.
Thanks for that information.
It is that and not to mention that the tunnel has more timers than any other in the city. Then you have the Nassau switch for M's to use which also causes a slowdown if it beats a N or R to the tunnel.
Well the tunnel does have turns that you can't go too fast on particularly when they approach Court St[BB] and Whitehall St[MB] and if a M crosses in front of a N or R then it has to go slower than it already does. Then you have the notorious slowdown btw Whitehall St and Canal St [btw City hall and Canal forget it], so basically, you're not going more than 25-30mph through the rathole most of the time.
Manhattan bound, Have the grade timers cease once you get to the bottom of the tunnel, like all the others. That tunnel is the only one where the timers go almost all the way to the other side. This is supposedly because of the switch to the Nassau line, but then they could only have them in effect when the switch is set for Nassau. Otherwise, they should allow faster speed once you get to the bottom of the downgrade.
"This is supposedly because of the switch to the Nassau line, but then they could only have them in effect when the switch is set for Nassau."
Are there any timers intelligent enough that they only operate when the switch is set for the sharp turn? Certainly many timers operate no matter which way the switch is set.
Wheel Detectors can do that.
David
"Wheel Detectors can do that."
Yes. but are there actually any (or hopefully even many) locations where wheel detectors ARE USED to avoid unnecessary activation of timers?
My personal observations are limited, but I have never seen any timers that only activate when the switch is set so that they need to activate. All the switch-related timers I observe activate all the time.
There are many places right before switches that have GT signs, but are all clear when the switch is straight. One place is southbound on the local track going into 59th St. As soon as you go around the bend, you see the yellow and red, but they clear way, way ahead of you, then as you approach the switch, you see a series of GT signs getting slower and slower, but the signal has already cleared. I assume they are for the diverge then, and there are even some new "D-GT" signs, meaning the time for a diverge is different than going straight.
Absolutely.
Northbound at 96th on the 1/2/3/9, there's a WD on the express track. It's inactive unless the interlocking north of the station is set for a merge (either express into local or local into express). I didn't even know it existed until the 2 started running local all day last year.
"Weekend service most likely would have to be cut back to ease train traffic."
It shouldn't be necessary, assuming proper management. The Q, R, and W each run every 8 minutes on Saturdays. That only totals 22.5 trains per hour.
And MAN is it soooooooo SLOW traveling through the Montague Street Rat-nel
If it is really that slow you can always transfer - oh and you have quite a choice:
Brighton Beach, Av U, Kings Highway, Av M, Av J, Newkirk Av, Cortelyou Rd, Church Av: Bus to (F) 6th Av Lcl
Prospect Pk: (S) to (C) 8th Av Lcl
Atlantic Av: (2)(3) 7th Av Exp, (4) Lex Exp
Court St: B51 Bus
Anywhere: taxi
Anywhere: taxi
You intend to successfully hail a cab deep in Brooklyn?
It's been done before...
When? The last time I remember seeing yellow cabs regularly looking for fares in the areas of Brooklyn where I used to live (Midwood, Madison, Marine Park) was back in the late 1970s - early 1980s. As a matter of fact, while there are still areas marked as "Taxi Stands" outside the Q stations at Avenue J and Avenue M, I have not seen a cab there in at least ten years.
subfan
I remember in the late '80s Flatbush was totally devoid of yellow cabs, but in the last several years, more West Indians have gotten into the yellow cab business, so now you do see some there.
Ridgewood is mostly livery car service territory (the main mode of transportation sometimes!), but you occasionally see a yellow taxi here as well.
Ridgewood is mostly livery car service territory (the main mode of transportation sometimes!), but you occasionally see a yellow taxi here as well.
A yellow cab in Ridgewood? I doubt the cab driver would get too many people hailing a cab in Ridgewood. If you occasionally see one in Ridgewood, it must either be a cab that someone hailed in Manhattan for a ride to Ridgewood, or a driver who lives in the area - or a service trip to LaFres Ford on Fresh Pond Road which supplies many of the taxis.
My point exactly.
David
Can't beat a 100% certainty. I know that the Q going through the tunnel would make sense and I understand that it must be done to complete the reconstruction.
Thank you for posting that (I should have read your post first).
This is good news. The city has done an excellent job this time getting the bridge rehabilitated.
Is the reason for the delay truly Stillwell's reconstruction? It doesn't seem likely, intuitively, because the TA seems to be managing well enough turning trains short of that terminal. I would be interested in what your opinion is on that, and if you have access to the real explanation (and the real explanation could be Stillwell, of course).
RTO (and Operations Planning for that matter) work in strange ways. I still can't figure out with the forcast for significant snow for X-Mas, we only had a Plan-I.
It must have been pretty dangerous for the RCI's, car cleaners and t/o's getting those put ins ready this morning as they were walking those yard tracks.
Hey Dude, I will be more than willing to wait until 2004 if the Sea Beach is allowed back on the bridge. Others may complain that if the tracks are ready next spring why wait until 2004, but I would rather have them open in 2004 with my train on the bridge rather than open next spring with the N still in that Montague rathole. See what you can do on my behalf. Let them know you have a crazy friend in California who is agonizing over that.
By the way, have a very merry Christmas.
That's a year away - of course that also means it's only a year away.
All in all, good news.
If anyone here in Subtalk would realize that, it only makes sense. The Manhattan Bridge reopening of the north (6th Ave) side should take place to concide with the Stillwell Terminal reopening in May 2004. This way T/O's and C/R's will only have to pick once for their upcoming jobs instead of TWO seperate picks. And after we go through a whole spring and summer of NO WEEKEND TRAIN SERVICE OVER THE MANAHATTAN BRIDGE IN 2003.
And after we go through a whole spring and summer of NO WEEKEND TRAIN SERVICE OVER THE MANAHATTAN BRIDGE IN 2003.
This thread is the first I heard of this, when is that supposed to begin. Anyone have any more information about this?
When the CR's and T/O's make their picks on 2/3/03, I will hear from my spies as to when this will take effect. Not an exact date but a close appromoxiation as to when the final phase of the Manhattan Bridge detour (hopefully final!) service plan will commence. We endured this back sometime ago, we will lose the weekend scenery (not to mention one line cut back to Pacific Street, a W or R) as the trains go through the Montague Street rat-nnel.
The Q, R, and W can all fit through Montague with no problem, and two local services are necessary in Manhattan. The N is already cut back at Pacific.
It was common understanding that the W, and now N was cut back on weekends because "The bridge would be out most weekends, so we might as well cut it back all the time"
Since it is not until next pick that all this weekend work will begin, that means it will have been two years since the bridge flip, with only a handful of weekend shutdowns (of both or one track).
So they could have had the two services (Q and W or N) on the bridge running to 57th on weekends (And the N even swinging to the bridge at Canal St. like '86-88) all this time.
They could have, but would it have been necessary? Do you really think the Broadway BMT needs two locals and two expresses? Two locals and one express seem to handle the loads just fine.
Incidentally, there have been many weekend shutdowns of either the bridge or the tunnel, one direction or both. (Granted, for some of those shutdowns the R was split into a Brooklyn segment and a Queens-Manhattan segment, but that seemed to be a later modification to the plan.)
It's not a matter of necessary. In all other bridge scenarios (north side open, fully open), all three branches of 4th Av. had weekend service to Manhattan. Cutting back one is only if there is not enough capacity (as when the bridge is fully closed). The excuse used here was that it would be closed most of the time, but for the first two years, it wasn't.
In any event, it's a small price to pay for bringing the bridge back into full service in 2004.
What a time that will be. Stillwell will be reopened (though with some work left to finish),PATH will have restarted full service by then. The New York region's rapid transit services will celebrate their finest hour.
And I'll be standing on some street corner in Kansas City, waiting for a rush hour bus that runs every 20 minutes...
OK, I'll be driving by then, but I wanted you to feel sorry for me anyway. :0)
I don't recall seeing a formally stated excuse on the part of NYCT. Various SubTalkers came up with potential reasons.
With the 6th Avenue side open, the B, D, N, and R each had distinct north ends that needed to be served: Queensbridge, Concourse, Astoria, and Queens Boulevard. With the Broadway side open, there are only two distinct north ends: Astoria and Queens Boulevard. Weekend service before 7/22/01 needed all four lines at their north ends as well as their south ends, so they ran in between as well. Weekend service now only needs all four lines at their south ends, so one is cut back to Pacific. (Two lines would suffice in Manhattan if not for volume considerations.)
I do think there is currently a shortage of weekend service on 6th Avenue. The V, in some form, should run on weekends, IMO.
I do think there is currently a shortage of weekend service on 6th Avenue. The V, in some form, should run on weekends, IMO.
Would extending the (D) as local to 2nd Avenue (like the old (BB)) suffice?
"Would extending the (D) as local to 2nd Avenue (like the old (BB)) suffice? "
It stirkes me the most irritating issue with the lack of a weekend V is that there is no service from 6th Ave to E 53rd St. That would not be satisfied by extending the V.
I think there ought to be a V from 2nd Ave to Queens Plaza on the weekend. However, some people have said the middle track at QP (shown on the track map) can no longer be used to turn trains.
Not that it can't be used, but it seems to have to do with the new computerized interlocking system at QBP: they don't like to do something different than the preprogrammed routings. When the G on the Queensbound track at Court Sq. needs to relay to get to the layup position on the Brooklyn bound platform, they will send it all the way to Continental. Likewise, they try to avoid turning B/O trains from Queens there as well.
What I'd like to see is from QP to Metropolitan on weekends.
Just be lucky you got V service all day weekdays.. because in the 80's the V most likely would have been a rush hour only service.
N Bwy
It wouldn't be a bad idea to turn the D to a local to 2 Av but would it really be worth it? HOWEVER, you may be able to run a 6 Av express on weekends towards 2 Av by having D's switch after W 4 St to the local track uptown, it could use the middle track from B'way-Lafayette to 34 St then regular.
The V needs to have a weekend service, how about bringing it to 179 St on weekends, 3 locals via QB could fit w/o causing too much wear on the tracks.
"It wouldn't be a bad idea to turn the D to a local to 2 Av but would it really be worth it? HOWEVER, you may be able to run a 6 Av express on weekends towards 2 Av by having D's switch after W 4 St to the local track uptown, it could use the middle track from B'way-Lafayette to 34 St then regular.
The V needs to have a weekend service, how about bringing it to 179 St on weekends, 3 locals via QB could fit w/o causing too much wear on the tracks."
Forget about the V! it's a waste... and leave the B/D alone!! The F can handle the crowds.. Thank you... It's about time the 6th Avenue line suffer the way we did for over 15 years... YIPPY!!!!
N Bwy Line
It's about time the 6th Avenue line suffer the way we did for over 15 years... YIPPY!!!!
N Broadway Line - if you really want to make them suffer, you should suggest something like this:
(F) 57/6 to 2nd Av not nights or weekends
(Q) and <Q> extended via 63rd St tunnel to 179/Hillside
(V) weekdays Forest Hills - 53rd St - 6th Av - Culver - Av X; nights and weekends 57/6 - 6th Av - Culver - Av X
But still in the late 80's, both services ran to 57th, and at first only Astoria was needed to be served. (so actually 3 services terminated there for the first year. Imagine if they had cut back the R as well).
That's ancient history. The subway system has changed, the TA has changed, and ridership patterns have changed. Right now, the Broadway BMT doesn't need four weekend services and there's no other reason, like north terminals, dictating more service through Manhattan than is otherwise needed.
Good point. Of course, in 2004, you will have only three distinct northern terminals for the Sixth Av lines if you don't count what the B does when it's not serving as the Concourse's local service.
So, in all likelihood that leads to the F in the Rutgers tunnel, the D and the B on the bridge, along with some form of Q service and maybe a retained W Astoria Express (who knows? A lot of posts have been devoted to that) and N and R local service through the Montague.
If only one of these last two uses the Montague, it means somebody riding the BMT in Queens or Brooklyn loses access to stations below the Manny B, so I'm betting the TA will leave that alone.
"If only one of these last two uses the Montague, it means somebody riding the BMT in Queens or Brooklyn loses access to stations below the Manny B, so I'm betting the TA will leave that alone."
80% of Manhattan office space is in midtown. That would suggest that the vast majority of current Sea Beach riders would PREFER the bridge to the tunnel.
Also, various postings have pointed out that the R, N, and M get pretty full, but then dump many of their people at Pacific and Dekalb to the bridge trains.
All this suggests that the wisest course would be to run the Sea Beach over the bridge once it's possible. But of course that doesn't guarantee that NYCT will do it.
Broadway in Lower Manhattan should have 2 services, and Astoria needs 2 nowadays, so an Astoria to Whitehall W local to supplement the N and R makes sense.
80% of Manhattan office space is in midtown. That would suggest that the vast majority of current Sea Beach riders would PREFER the bridge to the tunnel.
Likely but not certainly. It's possible that, since the Sea Beach has had direct access to lower Manhattan for the past 15 years, residents of the area desire direct lower Manhattan access more than average.
Many passengers to Prince and 8th probably prefer tunnel trains, since the transfer at Canal is somewhat of a pain. Even some passengers to 23rd and 28th prefer tunnel trains.
And it's kind of convenient that the Sea Beach and the West End, which serve the same general area, run to different places in Manhattan. I suppose that will remain the case if the Sea Beach goes over the bridge as long as the West End uses the other side of the bridge.
"It's possible that, since the Sea Beach has had direct access to lower Manhattan for the past 15 years, residents of the area desire direct lower Manhattan access more than average."
Very likely, in fact.
However, the Sea Beach neighborhoods are quite stable, so many people have been there a very long time and moved there when the Sea Beach Line went over the bridge. Also, some people who moved to the Sea Beach area for a better commute to lower Manhattan have seen their company move to midtown.
So maybe 30% of Sea Beach riders during rush hour want the tunnel rather than the usual 20%.
I would agree there's a strong argument for sending the Sea Beach through the tunnel on weekends, when traffic isn't so strongly related to commuting, and lower Broadway needs the service.
"They could have, but would it have been necessary? Do you really think the Broadway BMT needs two locals and two expresses? Two locals and one express seem to handle the loads just fine."
YES WE DO!!! FOR ONCE!! WE GET A BREAK!! AND YOU READY TO SNUFF US AGAIN! SHAME ON YOU!!!!! DAVID!!!
FOR YEARS WE HAD TO DEAL WITH ONLY TWO LOCALS COMPARE TO THE 6AVENUE LINES!! WITH THREE EXPRESS SERVICES!!! NO WHERE ELSE DID THIS EVER HAPPEN! NOT EVEN THE LINES FEEDING CENTRAL PARK WEST HAD THAT LUXTURY.
N Broadway Line
NOT EVEN THE LINES FEEDING CENTRAL PARK WEST HAD THAT LUXTURY.
Would it really be necessary to have that "luxury" on CPW anyway?
Calm down. I'm talking about weekend service.
Why two locals and one express? Why not two expresses and one local? Do those 5 stops really need all that extra service?
Those extra 11 stops, you mean.
My impression is that, on weekends, Broadway BMT locals (in Manhattan) are at least as crowded as expresses. Some of those 11 stops are quite well-used on weekends. Ten-minute headways aren't enough -- and are totally unnecessary.
Off-peak, on most lines, there should be less express service than local service. The lines with heavy ridership to the end also tend to be heavily peaked.
With Rarely, you could definitely fit the three lines through the rathole Montague funnel ;-). Seriously, the N, Q and R did it in 1995 during the 2nd Manny-B project and its weekends only so it is possible for the Q, R & W to run through it. Damn, my Q train might be moving from the nice scenery of the Manny-B to possibly experience the rathole once again :-(.
[First the 1/9 Line between Chambers and South Ferry is reopened WAY ahead of originally thought....]
THAT was just to get Pataki re-elected. There's no such consideration for the Manhattan Bridge, so the work can be done correctly instead of quickly.
Exactly. Remember the bridge plan of 1995 when they ran trains on it during rush hour, that is how this 3rd project came to life.
"THAT was just to get Pataki re-elected"
And since lower Manhattan, and all of us, benefitted from the line opening earlier, there's no reason why the Guv shouldn't benefit too. Fine with me, and by election results, fine with the vast majoerity of New Yorkers.
"THAT was just to get Pataki re-elected"
And since lower Manhattan, and all of us, benefitted from the line opening earlier, there's no reason why the Guv shouldn't benefit too. Fine with me, and by election results, fine with the vast majority of New Yorkers.
The B division t/o's & c/r's are scheduled to start picking new jobs around 2/3/03 which will go into effect sometime in the spring. When we see the work programs about a week before hand, we'll be able to report any upcoming changes in the service patterns.
You probably won't see anything different. Since this is not expected, they will schedule based on the current pattern, and then if it changes, they will issue supplement schedules for the rest of the pick.
Cool, but probably optomistic in the extreme.
I don't think April 2003 will be the reopening date. I don't know if you had recently visited the Grand Street Station. The unuse platform piled up with huge chunk of rock and track bed had been taken out. It looks like the schedule of the Reopen NS MANNY B will be delayed.
Bringing up the 6th Ave express tracks in another thread made me really think about the 6th Ave line, and how it originally was built. In the IND section of this site I got the following information about when the line was built (I knew the express tracks were added in the late 60's):
50th to 34th St - 2 local tracks opened 12/15/1940
34th to W4th - 2 local tracks opened 12/15/1940
34th to W4th 2 Express tracks opened 07/01/1968
My question is about the portion of the 6th Ave line between Rockefeller Center and 34th Street. It says that only two tracks were opened in the 30's there. Was the 6th Ave line built as four tracks right from the beginning between 47-50th and 34th, or was it just the two local tracks and two express tracks left as unfinished trackways in the 30's? Did 47-50, 42, and 34th basically look like 2nd Ave/Houston for 30 years, or did they actually use the express tracks between those stations?
I am assuming that all of the construction on the 6th Ave line in the 60's was between 34th Street and West 4th Street, and that 34th to 47-50 was basically built the was it is now, waiting for 30 years for the trains to come.
I think what they did between 47-50 and 34th was to use all four tracks for whatever services were using 6 Avenue:
"D" (like today's "F") using the outer (local) thru trackis
Rush Hour "BB" (like today's weekday "B")
"F" From Queens, both terminating at 34th Street, like today's "D" does.
wayne
All 4 tracks were in use from day #1. The D ran on the express tracks from Rock Center until just north of 34th, where it switched to the local tracks. The BB used the express tracks all the way into 34th St.
The info from the website is probably incorrect. The 6th Ave. Line, as I remember it from the 1950's, had four tracks between 47/50th and 34th Sts. I wasn't born in 1940 so I don't remember its earliest days, but as I recall the two express tracks stub ended at 34th St. and resumed again at West 4th St.
The normal 6th Ave. Service patttern between 1954 and Nov. 1967 (Chrystie Street and 6th Ave. express tracks opening) was:
BB - Rush hours only, from 168th/Wash Hts. to 34th.
D - all times from 205th to Coney Island. Via express track from 50th to 34th, then switched to local tracks south of 34th. South of 34th St. the D used today's F route via the Culver Line.
F - all times from 179th/Jamaica to 34th St. Weekday rush hours and middays extended to 2nd Ave. or B'way-Lafayette.
Thanks for the info (and Wayne too!). Actually it seems that service on the 6th Ave line before the 60's express track construction between 34th and W4th was somewhat like it is today with the MB closed (except with the letters mixed up a bit).
Another question. Besides the JFK Express, was there ever a "true" 6th ave service that ran the length straight up from WTC (or the Cranberry Tube) to 57th (or Queens)?
GP38Chris asks, "Besides the JFK Express, was there ever a "true" 6th ave service that ran the length straight up from WTC (or the Cranberry Tube) to 57th (or Queens)?"
'D' trains ran from Chambers Street (local) via 6th Avenue prior to the opening of the Culver connection from Church Avenue to Ditmas. The 'D' replaced the 'F' on the Brooklyn Line ("Smith Street-Eighth Avenue Subway," as the old signs had it) at that time. There were new black on white painted signs all along the Culver elevated structure reading "Concourse-Culver." It was odd to see those 'D' trains called 'express' when they ran local from Coney Island to Columbus Circle.
In the 1930s before the opening of 6th Avenue, 'C' trains ran from Church Avenue via Smith and Rutgers to 8th Avenue. I don't know if 'C' trains ran express on 8th Avenue from West Fourth or if they ran local to Columbus Circle.
Other than the JFK train, I don't think there was ever any Cranberry Street Tube service to 6th Avenue.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Interesting. On a similar note, I think I also remember seeing "backwards" service around Jay Street-Boro Hall. As originally routed at the beginning, I think the routing through there was:
High Street
Jay Street
Bergen Street
-backwards from the way it's run now.
Any train running through Rutgers and up 8th Avenue must run on the local track at least to 59th Street. Conversely, any train on the SB express track at 59th Street that doesn't branch off to 6th Avenue right away cannot reach Rutgers without a reverse move.
In the 1930s before the opening of 6th Avenue, 'C' trains ran from Church Avenue via Smith and Rutgers to 8th Avenue. I don't know if 'C' trains ran express on 8th Avenue from West Fourth or if they ran local to Columbus Circle.
NO!!!
Take a look at the this service map availabile on this site.
The E ran to Church Ave via the 8th Ave-Houston St Line. It ran local in Manhattan. The C ran express in Manhattan and terminated at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The A terminated at Rockaway Ave.
That map is 1939; I was thinking of earlier service patterns, but
I guess I was wrong.
I thought the 'C' replaced the 'A' on Smith Street when the 'A' was rerouted to Fulton Street while the 'E' went to Houston (Broadway-Lafayette).
If memory serves, 'E' service went to Broadway-Lafayette during the years the 'D' went to Chambers before its rerouting so express service could be started on Fulton Street.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
That map is 1939; I was thinking of earlier service patterns,
The service patterns shown in the map were introduced on 4/8/36, when both the Fulton St Line and Rutgers St Tunnel were opened.
I thought the 'C' replaced the 'A' on Smith Street when the 'A' was rerouted to Fulton Street while the 'E' went to Houston (Broadway-Lafayette).
No, the E replaced the A to Church Ave. Both the A and the C operated to Brooklyn via Cranberry St before then.
The 1940-1949 patterns were AA or CC to Hudson Terminal; E to Bway-Lafayette; D to Hudson Terminal; F to Church Ave
The 1949-1954 patterns were: AA to Hudson Terminal; E to Bway-Lafayette (non rush hours, rush hours to Bway-ENY via Chambers St); CC to Bway-Lafayette; D to Hudson Terminal; F to Church Ave.
They could have started express service from day #1 had they run the C to Utica. Express rains could have terminated there without blocking locals to/from Rockaway Ave (like at Brighton Beach).
When the C ran express to Hoyt, How did it change ends and go back north? Did the train run light to the center track between Lafayette and Clinton-Washingto to turn?
I have no references on this subject but your scenerio appears to be the only logical solution. I'd assume that this was definitely done before 1940, when the C was a fulltime service.
There were very few C's after 1940, so it is entirely possible that trains ran one-way and were stored on the Fulton St express tracks before the Pitkin Ave yard opened.
AFAIK, it was the E, not C which ran to Church Ave before the 6th Ave. line opened. The "C" was an pre-6th Ave express which ran from 1933 to 1940 and couldn't have used the merger south of W4th without complicated switching.
What was the purpose of having the D and F switch paths? Why not terminate the D at 34 (as now) and run the F to Brooklyn (as now)?
Incidentally, the SB D stopped against the wall at 47-50, in the middle at 42, and back against the wall at 34.
The story I head was that at the time the F ran along 11-car trains and they didn't want to run 11-car trains on the Culver line because it required an extra conductor and additional lengthening.
In 1967, they stopped running 11-car trains on the F anyway.
The reason they ran the D to Coney instead of the F was that (incredible as it may seem) they planned the service to serve customers they thought would use it.
Running the D to Coney Island provided a direct line from Harlem and the Bronx to Coney Island. This replaced the necessaity of taking the A train to Franklin Avenue and a walking transfer to Franklin Expresses to Coney Island. It also replaced the necessity for D passengers to change at 34-6. These were the typical routings before 1954.
Of course, this led to the inevitable end of Franklin through services.
But why the assumption that no one in Queens would want to go to Coney Island? Were they expected to take the F to the GG to the D?
But why the assumption that no one in Queens would want to go to Coney Island? Were they expected to take the F to the GG to the D?
It was planned as a positive, not a negative. They considered it as giving service to Harlem and uptown, not taking it away from someone else. Northern Manhattan and the Bronx were a big source of Coney Island traffic and it seemed to make more sense to create this Bronx/Manhattan/Coney Island line.
People from the Queens area were more inclined, if available, to follow the older patterns of going via the Fulton Line to Franklin or through downtown, rather than the long way around via midtown. But people who wanted to go that way could transfer across-the-platform at 34-6.
I'm sure somebody (if only briefly) must havegiven some thought to direct Coney Island to Queens service.
Of course, the Myrtle elevated would get you from parts of Queens to a transfer in Brooklyn...
It's not as incredible as it seems. The NX in 1967 wqs planned to service the then-new housing developments opening up on the western end of Coney Island. The TA really thought there'd be a need for it.
--Mark
It's not as incredible as it seems. The NX in 1967 wqs planned to service the then-new housing developments opening up on the western end of Coney Island. The TA really thought there'd be a need for it.
In this particular case, Mark, that's not so. The NX was an attempt, along with the QB, to allay Brighton riders' anger at having no Broadway service as part of Chrystie. That's why it had its odd reverse routing from Brighton Beach. The TA never wanted to run it and it was "set up to fail." And it did.
My question is about the portion of the 6th Ave line between Rockefeller Center and 34th Street. It says that only two tracks were opened in the 30's there. Was the 6th Ave line built as four tracks right from the beginning between 47-50th and 34th, or was it just the two local tracks and two express tracks left as unfinished trackways in the 30's?
The 6th Avenue Line sans the express tracks between W4 and 34 were as built. Two tracks were not used in the 30s because the Queensboro line (the (F) train) was not running yet.
The line from Queens arrives on what looks like 'local' tracks, while the line from the Bronx arrives on what looks like express tracks. While they *can* switch tracks, you would not do this in practice since it will bolix up the merge of trains and really slow the line down. Even now the (B) and (D) are terminating on the 'express' tracks. Although this was in fact the tracks that the (F) terminated on when it did terminate there, for clearly the (D) *had* to use the through 'local' track to W4th.
Elias
I thought the story with the 6th Ave Express Tracks was that NYC was going to take over the H&M tracks for their line. But it would have cost too much to convert the tunnel for IND clearences so H&M was allowed to stay. It was the depression at the time.
thought the story with the 6th Ave Express Tracks was that NYC was going to take over the H&M tracks for their line. But it would have cost too much to convert the tunnel for IND clearences so H&M was allowed to stay. It was the depression at the time.
That story is true. They were still considering doing that after WWII, within my memory, before deciding it just wouldn't work and they built the deep tunnels.
The future PATH dodged a bullet there!
So, did the middle tracks at 34th & 6th end at a bumper block in the station or did they go past the station to end as a tail track? Another question...what was the original alignment of the tracks on the 6th Avenue line between north of W4th and 2nd Avenue? Did the middle tracks from W4th continue through Bway-Lafayette straight to 2nd Avenue or was 2nd Avenue middle only accessed from the current track alignment?
I didn't pay as close attention to the IND as the BMT in those days, but my memory is that (1) the two express tracks stub-ended in or not far south of 34-6. Trains did not relay south of the station (there was no room with the H&M) but reversed ends there.
(2) IIRC, the "express" tracks on the Houston Street Line went thru from Broadway-Lafayette to 2nd Avenue.
I thought the express tracks picked up at W4 and continued south to 2nd Ave. After the connection to the Manhattan Bridge was made the express tracks went to Grand St and the Bridge after B'way-Lafayette. The express tracks at 2nd Ave was then connected to the local tracks.
Yes, that's my memory.
I didn't pay as close attention to the IND as the BMT in those days, but my memory is that (1) the two express tracks stub-ended in or not far south of 34-6
In the original plan for the 6th Ave IND, was it always planned that they would build express tracks between 34th and West 4th? If so why did they not do it in the 30's with the rest of the line?
Someone mentioned that they were planning to take over the H&M for the 6th Ave IND. Would that have been for the local or the express. There are stations along PATH, so it doesn't seem to make sense that they would have wanted that used that for the express tracks.
Perhaps the original plan was for a four-track local.
The original plan apparently always anticipated a four track line. The H&M was in the way but they decided they could leave that for the future, with the H&M forced out when the time came. As I said, into my memory they still thought they could take over the H&M but finally decided that the effort to clear and rebuildingteh tunnel for IND profile equipment wasn't worth the effort, and so "The Dash"...
We can fairly assume that not much of the original H&M infrastructure would have remained in a rebuilding, so where express stations (if any) "would" have been I have no idea.
We can fairly assume that not much of the original H&M infrastructure would have remained in a rebuilding, so where express stations (if any) "would" have been I have no idea.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way. If they were ripping apart the tunnels to allow for IND sized trains, the stations would have been ripped up also.
One thing of interest along 6th Avenue is the mezinine level tunnel between 34th Street and 42nd Street.
This was a wide tiled tunnel, outside of fare control, with enterances to the tunnel every block or two.
From the way it ran, it looked like the PATH *could* have used it to 42nd street (it was that big a tunnel). I guess for safety reasons it was closed, was it not. What is to be recalled of this.
Elias
From what I understand, the passageway originally had entrances at 38th Street. These entrances were meant more or less as compensation to area business owners for the loss of the 6th Avenue El, which had a station at 38th Street. In other words, while there was no longer a transit stop at 38th, people could enter or leave the subway at that spot and, hopefully, patronize adjacent businesses.
I think Peter Rosa is right about compensating businesses for the loss of the El on Sixth Avenue.
It might have been from 38th Street, but I seem to recall that it was possible to walk underground from 41st Street and 6th Avenue (corner near the Park) all the way through to the far west part of Penn Station at 31st or 32nd Street and Eighth Avenue. Most is closed or rearranged now, including the walkway under Gimbel's. I walked the full distance just to be able to say I had done it at least once back in the 1950s or 1960s. I haven't used any of those subway entrances in a long time, but a visual survey might reveal where the trek would start.
What I don't remember is if there was an underground passageway from Penn Station into the Post Office, in which case it would have been possible to continue right through to Ninth Avenue.
The passageways under Rockefeller Plaza might have provided a precedent. Other cities have underground systems put in during the last thirty years or so--Montréal, Toronto (whose system is called "Path")--and skyways are in many places, such as downtown Rochester, NY, continuing the principle.
It's too bad we didn't have videotape back then; fast forward would have been fun to watch.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It might have been from 38th Street, but I seem to recall that it was possible to walk underground from 41st Street and 6th Avenue (corner near the Park) all the way through to the far west part of Penn Station at 31st or 32nd Street and Eighth Avenue. Most is closed or rearranged now, including the walkway under Gimbel's. I walked the full distance just to be able to say I had done it at least once back in the 1950s or 1960s. I haven't used any of those subway entrances in a long time, but a visual survey might reveal where the trek would start.
I believe that was indeed possible, although it may have been necessary to pay a fare in order to pass through the Herald Square station underground.
What I don't remember is if there was an underground passageway from Penn Station into the Post Office, in which case it would have been possible to continue right through to Ninth Avenue.
Not that I've ever heard.
Trekking along on the Sixth Avenue Foot Express, it was possible to thread through the Herald Square complex without paying a fare. That was part of the fun of doing it.
Ed Alfonsin
I think Peter Rosa is right about compensating businesses for the loss of the El on Sixth Avenue.
It might have been from 38th Street, but I seem to recall that it was possible to walk underground from 41st Street and 6th Avenue (corner near the Park) all the way through to the far west part of Penn Station at 31st or 32nd Street and Eighth Avenue. Most is closed or rearranged now, including the walkway under Gimbel's. I walked the full distance just to be able to say I had done it at least once back in the 1950s or 1960s. I haven't used any of those subway entrances in a long time, but a visual survey might reveal where the trek would start.
What I don't remember is if there was an underground passageway from Penn Station into the Post Office, in which case it would have been possible to continue right through to Ninth Avenue.
The passageways under Rockefeller Plaza might have provided a precedent. Other cities have underground systems put in during the last thirty years or so--Montréal, Toronto (whose system is called "Path")--and skyways are in many places, such as downtown Rochester, NY, continuing the principle.
It's too bad we didn't have videotape back then; fast forward would have been fun to watch.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Sorry about the double posting. I have no idea what happened; I just saw my name pop up a second time.
Merry and Happy,
Ed Alfonsin
You can still see where the entrances were on 38th St. The sidewalk widens where the staircases were, and IIRC there is a grating that can look down into and see the stairs.
--Mark
The H&M line was to have gone north on 6th Avenue to 42 St then east over to Grand Central. Maybe it would have went up 6th Ave on a upper level from the IND line. And it might have went thru the passageway from 35 St to 41 St.
As Peter Rosa said, the purpose of the mezzanine was to have entrances on 38th Street to compensate merchants who complained about the loss of the 38th Street station on the 6th Avenue el. IIRC those entrances were still open in the mid '70s but were gone by the early '80s without a trace.
Paul: I seems to recall that during the 1980's that passageway became a virtual underground shantytown for the homeless.
Larry, Redbird R33
Yeah, it became bad. I think there was a murder, or an aggravated rape or some similar horror down there which caused the final decision to close the passageway, but in earlier days it was a real luxury, if you had business over on or near 38th (and I did) to be abl to duck into the entrance there and walk out of the rain and cold all the way to Penn Station.
I recall getting off the train at Penn Station on enight when it was raining walking through the Gimbel's passageway and up through the IND passageway and not having to go above ground until 41 Street. It was nice to have an all-weather route like that. Now that you mention it I do seem to recall that there was a murder there. I'd like to see it put back into service even if it was in the fare control zone. They did that with the 41 Street passageway between 8 Avenue and 7 Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
What about the 14th Street passageway between 7th and 8th avenues? Was it closed because of a specific incident, or simply because NYCT decided that outside-fare-control passageways were unsafe?
I think it might have been closed down because:
> Walking from 7th to 8th was longer than from 6th to 7th Aves.
> TA was using parts of the passageway for storage of some equipment such as turnstiles.
> There was an abondoned ramp to the L station that customers were trying to use to enter the station.
> Homeless were sleeping in the passageway at night and there was fear of something happening. Although I know of nothing that actually did.
I think it was closed b/c the MTA used it for storage [which it actually is], the fear that the homeless would take it over and possibly menace passengers and they felt that if there is already transfers btw the 7 Av and 8 Av lines at 34 St/Penn Station, 42 St/Times Sq and Broadway Nassau, then it wouldn't be needed so much so it probably became unnecessary.
IIRC the passageway between 7th and 8th Aves at 34 St (actually 33 St) was closed because TAPD, AmtrakPD, NYCPD, LIRRPD, ect could not agree who was responsible for it.
IIRC the passageway between 7th and 8th Aves at 34 St (actually 33 St) was closed because TAPD, AmtrakPD, NYCPD, LIRRPD, ect could not agree who was responsible for it.
That *was* the "Gimbles" passageway between 6th and 7th... Between 7 and 8 *is* Penn Station, and is wide open.
I believe they call it the "Gimbles" tunnel for a reason. I believe it actually in in Gimbles' Basement rather than under the street. (Witness the jog to the south that it makes when leaving the street, and also the many enterance to the store from the tunnel) When the building closed, so did the tunnel.
Am I wrong? who can tell us for sure on the alignment of this tunnel. In no case would AMTK or LIRR have been responsible for it.
Elias
Off hand I forget if Gimbles was between 33 and 34 sts or between 32 and 33 Sts. Either way, it didn't go from 6th to 7th Ave.
Off hand I forget if Gimbles was between 33 and 34 sts or between 32 and 33 Sts. Either way, it didn't go from 6th to 7th Ave.
Macys is on the NORTH side of 34th Street.
Sack's 34th Street, later Korvettes, later whatever was between 33rd and 34th.
Gimbles was between 32nd Street and 33rd Street...
And if you must know, The Fransciscan Friary is between 31st and 32nd street (near the 7th Avenue end), and is the last place I worked in NYC before moving to North Dakota.
On the 32-33 bolck, Gimbles was at the 6th Avenue end and there is a hotel (of varrious name changes in the past 30 years) on the 7th avenue end.
So... if the Gimbles tunnel was really in "Gimbles Basement" then it also cut through the hotel basement.
Does anybody have more details?
(detail is at the other end of the cat!)
Elias
he Gimbels (sp) basement tunnel ran along the "north" edge of the "bargain basement" which originally had several entrance/doorways and display windows. at the end of Gimbels the tunnel turned south to a staiwell which came to street level in the entryway east of 7th Ave beween two retail stores in the 'Hotel' building. When I lived there in the 60's one was "Minifilm" a camerashop. AFAIK evidence of the stairwell is no longer visible and the retail establishments have turned over several times. It was a convenient escape from inclement weather but it was also one of the first places I recall being used as a 'home' by a "bag lady" who camped in one of the Gimbels doorways.
Hi, people. Talking about those underground passages....yeah, I used to use the one from PS to Sixth Ave all the time. Sort of a shame about how so many passageways nowadays, those that aren't "spiffied up" but instead, function more as surface streets(as in being open to all and subject to the normal results of the passage of humanity), and including things like the long connecting passageways that were so a part of the IND lines in all the boros, how these seem to be more and more shunned by the public.
What the hell does this mean? Have we grown....what? More afraid of such environs? Just my HO but, if true, how shameful. Maybe it's some kind of squirrel empathy in me but I sure do love utilizing more than one plane if at all possible in my daily travels. I like how some streets in The Bronx will be ambling along, la de da, pretty as you please...that suddenly the street is a stairway...and looking up, there continues the same street, back to its business. Or when a sidewalk remains the same width as it crosses pavement, overpass, tunnel, and so on.
Just seems a fitting way to get about town, real NewYorkish frame of mind. Or how about those cool department store entrances RIGHT THERE AT THE STATION PLATFORM!? Love that too. If there is a heaven I figure that's how we'll get inside it: walk down the platform past the dusty but interesting window scenes and step down into the revolving doors of the joint....under the neon script....
Plus, there's the Museum of Natural History. Come on, now. Ride uptown on the local....step off the train...there you are. That huge collection of our selves....and the steady rolling of the long trains passing....it's freaking sublime, damn it. Step off the train, and be amazed.
Anyway, so yeah, the underground walkways. I support `em.
You'd LOVE Montreal ... they made fantastic use of underground passageways to get around town. And it works NICELY.
And in Montreal they wouldn't allow half of the things that we allow here.
They couldn't do a joint operation :-\.
They couldn't do a joint operation :-\.
No Way... Joints are not legal!
I believe the passageway was private property of Gimbels. There used to be entrance to Gimbels from the passage. So it would have been either the province of NYPD or Gimbels security.
You're off by a decade. I remember using the passageway. I was born in 1974 and my memories are not from age 6 or younger.
True, I recall those entrances being open until the renovation of 34/6th. Which was in the early 90s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Funny thing is the passageway is still there. It was sealed off. I think it is used mostly as a (large) storage room. I passed by there one evening and a door was open. I looked in and saw the passageway going off into the distance with a lot of "stuff" on both sides.
Yes it is still there, they just built a wall and put a door in. It is right behind the token booth.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's where I saw it.
It definitely was still around in the late 80's. I remember being in Penn Station as a teenager, and in the LIRR Concourse (or the pit it used to be), remember seeing a sign directing to the N,R,etc trains.
I'm basing my memory on when my wife worked on 38th, which ended in 1985 or '86. At the end of her work there, as I recall, the entrances were gone. This wouldn't mean. of course, that the passageway was closed yet.
It's possible that they were closed right around then, but I think they were closed a few years later.
My initial foray into the railfanning avocation was, IIRC, in 1989. (My very first railfanning trip had a somewhat surprising end. Although I had only been riding an hour or so, I was greeted when I got home by two police officers, called by my overprotective parents who had expected me home by then.) Perhaps I noticed the entrances before I became a railfan, but it's more likely that I noticed them in 1989 or 1990.
Paul,
The entrances were closed at the same time the passageway was, about 1991. I remember because I started working in the area around 1986 and used the passageway and entrances at 38th many times. But, the passageway was *behind* fare control IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a common misconception about the H&M/PATH and this passageway. The H&M never got permission to build on their franchise to Grand Central. And the original H&M 33rd St. station was lower (and further north) - it was relocated to the south and raised to allow the 6th Ave IND to rise up into the 34th St. station. They planned to go under the BMT 34th St. station as seen in the attached photo. Finally, in Kramer's "Building the Independent Subway", page 71, you can see a picture where the IND 6th Ave. construction is going through solid rock at 35th Street.
From the way it was constructed, they probably assumed 14th St as an express station and 23rd as a local. Notice how the platform at 14th is "inside" the local track.
From 34th street the old (F) trains ran into the tunnel a short ways where there was a double crossover switch. The North bound trains always left from the uptown platform IIRC.
I do not remember much about how W4th Street looked in those days, but Houston and 2nd Avenue were always four-track two-island stations. Remember that one pair of tracks was to contiue east along Houston, cross the river and serve the BIG South 4th Street Station!
Elias
So, did the middle tracks at 34th & 6th end at a bumper block in the station or did they go past the station to end as a tail track? Another question...what was the original alignment of the tracks on the 6th Avenue line between north of W4th and 2nd Avenue? Did the middle tracks from W4th continue through Bway-Lafayette straight to 2nd Avenue or was 2nd Avenue middle only accessed from the current track alignment?
Prior to 1967 the express tracks of the 6 Avenue Line ended about 140 feet south of the south end of 34 Street Station although the tunnels extended for another 260 feet.
The express tracks at the south end formed n/o West 4 Street and ran through 2 Avenue. Trains terminating at 2 Avenue used these tracks until Nov 10,1958 when construction began for the Chrystie Street Subway. The connection of the express tracks between Broadway-Lafayette and 2 Avenue was broken at that time and F trains cut back to Broadway-Lafayette. It was still possible to access the express tracks at 2 Avenue by switches just north of the station and this was done by F trains when they were temporarily re-extended to 2 Avenue from July 11-Aug 30,1966.
Larry, RedbirdR33
It was still possible to access the express tracks at 2 Avenue by switches just north of the station and this was done by F trains when they were temporarily re-extended to 2 Avenue from July 11-Aug 30,1966.
And it is done today by the V train.
And apparently it was done by the B at some point:
Ah yes ... buzz buzz at 14th. Been there, done that, pulled up to X148 and ROTTED. :)
David. A few B trains did terminate at 2 Avenue. After the K (Bway-Bklyn) ceased B trains operated to both 168 St and 57/6 during the rush. During the am rush trains ran from Coney Island to 168 St and 57/6. Returning from 57/6 during the am rush a few ran to 2 Avenue and laid up until the pm rush. They did not carry passengers from 2 Avenue however. During the pm rush they ran light from 2 Avenue to Broadway-Lafayette and then made all stops to 57 Street.
Larry, RedbirdR33
According to my 1980 map, the B ran as a shuttle from 47/50th St. to 57th St. late at night. I can't see how this was done. How did they run those late night shuttles to 57th St. before 1986?
According to my 1980 map, the B ran as a shuttle from 47/50th St. to 57th St. late at night. I can't see how this was done. How did they run those late night shuttles to 57th St. before 1986?
Chris: Starting in July 1968 and continuing until August 1976 B train service was very consistent.
Rush Hours between 168 St and Coney Island with additional turns at Bay Parkway. Express on Sixth Avenue.
Non-Rush Hours between 57 Street/6 Avenue and Coney Island. Trains leaving 57 Street M-F from 728am 748am and from 325pm to 630pm ran express on Sixth Avenue otherwise the 57 Street trains made Sixth Avenue local stops.
When Rt K Bway/Bklyn-6 Av Lcl was discontinued on August 27,1976 it became necessary for Rt B trains to provide service to 57 Street during the rush hour as well.
Rush hour service continued between 168 St and Bay Parkway/Coney Island and non rush hours service remained the same between 57 Street and Coney Island.
The following changes occured.During the morning rush there was northbound service from Coney Island to 57 Street and turned as follows. Trains leaving 57 Street from 803am to 840am (four trains)ran local to 2 Avenue and laid up.Trains leaving from 853am to 932am ran local to West 4 Street and then light to Church Avenue for layup.
During the pm rush the Second Avenue layups left 2 Avenue from 346pm to 431 pm and the Church Avenue layups left from 423pm to 459pm. Both sets of trains ran light to Bway-Lafayette and then made all local stops to 57 Street. They then turned and ran to Coney Island. Bear in mind that trains leaving 57 Street from 728am to 748am and from 325pm to 630pm continued to run express on Sixth Avenue.
Effective August 28, 1977 through nighttime service was discontinued. B trains ran two shuttle services.
West End Shuttle between 36 Street and Coney Island
57 Street Shuttle between 57 Street and 47-50 Streets. I know from the station signage the the northbound 57 Street Shuttle left from track B2 (northbound local). I believe that this shuttle ran single track on the northbound local but I can't be sure of that.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, your answer to the midnight B shuttle is essentially correct. The B could single track on either B1 or B2 track from Rockefeller Ctr. to 57th & 6th. I worked that shuttle occasionally as a conductor in 1983 and remember coming in to Rcokefeler Ctr on the southbound platform and wrong-railing back to 57th St.
MJF: Thanks for the info. I never was down there that late at night to check it out.
Merry Christmas
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for your help, too. Merry Xmas.
How did you avoid interfering with F or D service coming off of 53rd St??
D and F services all ran on a 20 minute headway. The shuttle would usually enter 50th St right behind a departing D and leave for 57th Sreet before the next southbound D would arrive.
Next question: did anyone besides crew, cops and homeless people ever use this shuttle?
For a while it was mostly people going to and from Roosevelt Island.
I was refrring to the one track shuttle to 57th only which ran from 1978-1986.
Is there room at 2av to layup 4 trains? I thought the tails were about 500' ...
Dave: I think there was room then. The platforms could hold 10-11 60 foot R-types and the tail tracks extended about 535 feet beyond the end of the station. The most the B used back then was an eight car train of 60 footers.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Dig; 8 cars = no problem. 1st guy keys by the dwarf, and #2 takes a call-on.
Those B Trains to 2nd Avenue were really the old Queensbridge Shuttles in disguise that ran overnight.
-Stef
During what time period?
Early 90's map service guides claim that the late night F ran between Stillwell and 47-50, while the Q ran between Broadway-Lafayette and Queensbridge. My assumption has been that this was a single route, labeled F, from Stillwell to Queensbridge, but to avoid the potential confusing of having three different routes serve Queensbridge at different times of day, the map divided the route in two. Eventually the service guide was changed to reflect the reality -- during the Manhattan Bridge closure in 1995, IIRC, Queensbridge had 10-minute headways overnight, since it was served by both the F and the Q.
Is my assumption incorrect? Were these really two different lines? How (and why) did the F turn at 47-50?
It did exist it was called the F/Q line (really!) some pre--GOHd R-46s had this on their rollsigns.
Peace,
ANDEE
The middle tracks at 34 St ended at a stub end. In Jan or Feb 1963, an F overshot the platform and hit an overhanging beam. I remember thinking if the motorman had only waited a few years until the express tracks were extended, the crash would not have occurred!
I grew up riding the D train int he 1950's....and all four tracks were in use from 34th Street north. The two "express" tracks at 34th Street were the terminal of the BB and F as I recall. Coming in from uptown/Queens, there is a flying crossover between 47/50th Streets and 42nd Street. Northbound, trains would use the scissors crossovers just north of 34th Street to orient themselves to the proper tracks for Queens or Uptown.
The construction in the 1960's was from 34th Street south to West 4th. Once that was done, the center tracks at 34th Street became true express tracks. Not sure, but I think the D train took crossovers between 42nd and 34th to get from the outside to the inside/express tracks. (It's been awhile....)
Before the 63 st connector how far did the tunnel run north of
the 57st station. In the early 80's I seem to remember the tunnel
continuing a long way past the station. When was the construction to
link up the tunnel with the 63 st tunnel finished (it must have
been well before it was opened since I dont rememebr construction
at 57/6 or 57/7 in that time frame)?
I don't know the date or the distance. But the tunnel north of 57/6 went toward the 63 St tunnel a good while before the line opened up in 1989. And 57/6 opened up in 1976?
57th opened in 1968.The 63 st ''tunnel'' was started in 1969,and the subway was started in 1971.......
I don't know if this came up, but:
The 6th Ave. express tracks between 34th and W. 4th opened on 11/26/67. However, because the new 57th St. station wasn't ready yet, the express tracks were used only during rush hours at first by B and D trains. During non-rush hours, B trains terminated at W. 4th St., so D trains had to run local. The 57th St. station opened on July 1, 1968, at which time D trains began running express along 6th Ave 24/7.
The Baltimore Enamel Company did a lot of sign and license plate work early in the 20th Century, including Mass. license plates, now-rare ID plates for cars using the old Long Island Motor Parkway...as well as a lot of work in the subways.
Not much of Baltimore Enamel's subway work is extant today, but I believe an entire station's worth remains, at BMT Times Square, where the old black on white signs have yet to be raplaced. I miss those old signs. The lettering has a lot more character than the generic Helvetica or Akzidenz used these days.
Can someone check the Times Square plates to see if they were by Baltimore Enamel? You should be able to see "Baltimore Enamel" in small lettering towards the bottom...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am not sure but I think Times Square is Ingram-Richardson?
Why are R-143s assigned to the L and M lines and not the J/Z lines???
Mostly because they are testing CBTC on the "L" line. The line does not interface with other lines. The M getting the R-143s is because of the OPTO shuttle on that line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because on the L Line, they were testing the R143 for CBTC, and that's the only line where it does not share track with other trains, they did this to made sure CBTC worked and now since it worked, they are putting all the R143s on the L Line, I have no idea why they put them on M Line. My guess is that the J/Z Lines would of F*** them up badly.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
They are on the (M) because they can operate in OPTO mode and are 60' long. Nothing else on the J/Z can run in opto, because heretofore all opto capable B division equipment was on 75' cars which cannot run on the J/Z.
Elias
The reason the L line is getting the R143 is because the MTA wanted to pick a line that had no cross overs with any other line.So therefore the L gets R143 CBTC to there self. Now the M train gets the R143 for shuttle service. Reason why the J/Z lines did not get them is because they come in contact with other lines and the R143 order probaly would not have cover the J/Z.
PS: If you want to ride the R143 get on the L train and stop wondering.
R142/143MAN
AMTRAK MODElIN'
Will the 1,3 and 9 lines get the R-142/142A??
As of now, no. But, things change.
Peace,
ANDEE
According to the rumor mill, the 3 will get the 2nd option order 142's the replaced 62's will go to the 7. REMEMBER this is according to the rumor mill.
Now I here from people that the #3 will get R62. And the #4 will get R142 to add on with their R142A fleet.
They aren't supposed to get them on delivery. But a few years in the future when something comes in that's "better" than the R142, those lines may get the R142s as hand-me-downs.
Will there be any chance the V line gets extended to Brooklyn???
No.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Is there really any point.Is the V line serving a purpose to go to brooklyn. You know what the V train to brooklyn cause more subway traffic that is unneeded in the Coney Island area.
MODELIN' AMTRAK
Yes it is, if you ever take the F/V at rush hour, the F comes down the 6th Ave line from Queens to Brooklyn packed, while the V comes down relatively empty. And along 6th Ave, nobody takes the V b/c it doesn't go anywhere. By extending it to Brooklyn, you balance the load a little bit and give the V a purpose, something that many have said of it to lack.
Right now, the V has reduced F crowding so it is successful however, its existence hasn't lived up to expectations by not being able to go to Brooklyn. Also, there isn't sufficient rolling stock to extend it to Brooklyn and from other subtalkers posting on related topics in the past, the Church Av terminal tracks and switches needs an upgrade and the Bergen interlockings are not ready to support regular service.
It would seem from these observations that there is a need for:
1) rehab and upgrade the Bergen St interlock and provide for a "G" terminal at this location.
2) upgrade the terminal at Church for the "V" terminal service. This would provide one train service from Church to Manhattan for either the "F" or "V" riders.
3) Rehab the second best M-1s from the LIRR, at least 60, and send them to the S.I.R.T.
3a) rehab the SIRT R/44s and send them to the "A".
3b) release an equivlent length of R/38s and or R/GE38 tp go to "G"
service.
3c) Send an equivilent R/46 cars to the "V" service.
Yes Virgina, the "V" could go to Brooklyn!
"3) Rehab the second best M-1s from the LIRR, at least 60, and send them to the S.I.R.T.
3a) rehab the SIRT R/44s and send them to the "A".
3b) release an equivlent length of R/38s and or R/GE38 tp go to "G"
service.
3c) Send an equivilent R/46 cars to the "V" service."
Can't you just send the SIRT cars to the V?
The "V" uses R/68s. For purposes of maintainence, its best to keep fleets with a common car type. You reduce your inventory of replacement parts at storage yards.
The riding public is subject to less stress when they see a familar car type.
Some cars have operating limitations when type are mixed.
I personally would like to mix the R/40s and the R/40Ms to produce a two car set containing one Slanted and one Flatheaded married pair.
Then I'd stir in the R/42s. I'd keep these on Elevated lines just so the visual effect could be enjoyed by all! They have few, if any operating limitations and their commonality is high.
avid
>>>The "V" uses R/68s.<<<
The "V" is exclusively R-46s.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what I was just thinking. I didn't think I've ever seen anything but R46's on the V.
Well when they tested it one Saturday a few weeks before the official debut you could see R-40s and 32s, but since its official opening nothing but
R-46s.
Peace,
ANDEE
I humbley stand correct. You are correct. I was thinking R/46, but typed R/68. I always get in trouble when I think.
avid
>>>I always get in trouble when I think. <<<
I know the feeling.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never seen an R68 on the V, but I could be mistaken, because I don't ride the V too often.
V's use R46's, not R68's/R68A's, it took rolling stock from the F so it would be more sensible to send them to the V or to compromise send half to the A and half to the A problem solved everyone's happy. BUT its only 52 cars so if you were to divide tem it would provide 3 extra trains each so its better to send it to one line to provide it with 6 extra trains.
R46's run on the E, F, G, R and V
R68's run on the B, D, N, Q and W
R68A's run on the N, Q and W
BTW, mixing R40's and R40M's wouldn't make much sense but a R40M/R42 combo is not unusual.
it is possible that it will be extended to church ave, along with the G in 2004
Chances are slim, but one proposal that would send the V to Brooklyn without costing the TA any additional money is described in
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=412975
Has anyone checked this for things like infrastructure capacity? As I understand it, the reason V train terminates where it does is because there's insufficient capacity to extend it (along with the lack of funds for the necessary infrastructure investment).
AEM7
My proposal requires neither new/repaired infrastructure nor more rolling stock.
Other proposals for the V do require both, since they propose having the V run local on the Culver Line while the F runs express.
I don't think capacity is a problem, as I believe there is room with the F in the Rutgers tunnel. The biggest problem may be not enough trains.
For instance, I know that the G train extension is a capacity issue. With the V coming online, G can no longer run all the way to the end. Thus, similar situation may exist elsewhere in the system. However, AlM already said that he's keeping the total # of trains constant, and trainpaths constant... so I guess it's okay :)
AEM7
You may recall that in prior threads about dissatisfaction with the V line, I proposed "giving the people what they want" three express trains. In this scenario, a new terminal would be built for the V using the provision for the Winfield Spur east of Roosevelt. The R would serve stops between Continental and Roosevelt, then battery run on the local track to Queens Plaza. The V would pull into Roosevelt right behind it and then serve stops west of Roosevelt, clearing Queens Plaza before the next R express arrived. With the new intermediate terminal, you could run 10 tph on both lines despite the battery run.
I've now expanded on the fantasy. What if the Winfield Branch provision were extended south approximately 2 1/2 miles to the M train terminal at Metropoltian Avenue? New stations could be added at Queens Boulevard, Grand Avenue, and Eliot Avenue, providing service to Maspeth and Middle Village in addition to the existing stops in Ridgewood. The line would become a continous loop, running down Queens Boulevard, 6th Avenue, through the unused part of the Chryste Street connection, over the Williamsburg Bridge, and up the Myrtle Avenue line.
You'd run ten 8-car trains per hour in both directions at rush hour, with six per hour at other times. People would either head south toward the Willie B or north toward Queens Blvd, depending on where in Manhattan they were going. West Queens Loop riders could transfer at Essex Street for Lower Manhattan, and Roosevelt Avenue for the 59th or 63rd Street lines or for one of the three expresses.
Combine that with other Queens Fantasies we've discussed and you have a full rail system for the borough at "modest" incremental cost.
That's not a crazy idea. Actually, the ROW even exists for the M train to be extended north of Metro Ave, along the NYCRR ROW. I believe that is built for 2 tracks, but I wonder if they could squeeze a third track in there. That would leave 1 for freight (necessary) and two for the M line extension.
Could you please explain the streets this ROW uses and where it ends up?
I guess it uses the same streets the IND II plan used; 69th Place etc. and it would have quite a few kinks in it.
The Metropolitan Avenue station would have to be relocated to the NY&A tracks, and I envision it being half-and-half like Morris Park-the north end would be underground. Add a stop at Juniper Blvd and you've got a good plan.
wayne
Could you please explain the streets this ROW uses and where it ends up?
It doesn't parallel any particular streets, so it's a bit hard to explain. (it's on the Hagstroms Map if you have one).
After passing Metropolitan Ave Station (which would have to be relocate, as Wayne said) it goes under the Lutheran Cemetery, and then just left of Juniper park. It goesw northwest roughly paralleling 74th Street until Queens Blvd. It goes a bit more before roughly paralleling the BQE until it hits the Grand Central Pkwy. After that it goes to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Of course the fictional subway expansion of the M Line would not go that far, although, it could probably go to LaGuardia fairly easily if it followed the NYCRR ROW to the Queens Blvd line, and then ran along the East wye of the BQE to the Grand Central and then into the airport.
Thanks! This helps a bunch!
The Rutger St. tunnel can handle the excess capacity. There have been questions as to the ability of the Church Ave. relay tracks to handle both the V and G line's total number of trains.
(The Rutger St. tunnel can handle the excess capacity. There have been questions as to the ability of the Church Ave. relay tracks to handle both the V and G line's total number of trains. )
I heard they are going to do a project to fix up the yard and remedy that.
In any event, just in cast the G line doesn't go to Church, I told the design manager of the Culver Line resignalling (design start in 2004) that I want input. At the very least, I'd like to see the interlocking located west of 4th Avenue moved under the parking lot east of 4th Avenue.
You'd have to eliminate some columns and put in a transfer beam or two, but it would be worth it. The G could stop at 4th Avenue and terminal at the express platform at 7th Avenue, just by traveling one more stop. You wouldn't need to clear the car at the last stop so you wouldn't hold up the F. And you could put in a crew room so the train crew could take a leak and grab some water without crossing live tracks.
Still, Church would be better, and the yard could be used as the G base.
Are you saying that four relay tracks can't handle relaying 2 lines that aren't even that frequent? Isn't this essentially what they were built for?
Are you saying that four relay tracks can't handle relaying 2 lines that aren't even that frequent? Isn't this essentially what they were built for?
This is correct, and that is NOT what they were built for.
I do not know all of the details, but it seems as if the crossover is in the wrong place, making for long crossing times (wrong railing).
It was IIRC built with the thought of a line down Ft. Hamilton to Staten Island. (LOL)!
Elias
Yes and no.
The way things are configured on the relay trackage running under the mainline south of Church, it cannot handle the numbers of combined V/G trains (probably 20 TPH during rush hours). It will need to be redesigned and replaced before it can be used efficiently for that amount of service. This came up last month on here and it answered a long-held question I had about why both D and F service never ran into Brooklyn together prior to Chrystie St. It seemed logical that both routes could've been used and full express service from Church to Bergen would have been possible from 1954 to 1967. But with the necessity of running the GG to Church as well, it was simply too much for Church Ave. to handle.
This location was never meant to be used as a terminal anyway. It was simply a diversion point between the IND connection to the Culver el and the never built IND subway down Ft. Hamilton Parkway to Staten Island.
That's true, the express tracks btw Church Av and 15 St are 'technically' not express tracks since it was supposed to be used to build the Ft Hamilton subway which of course was never built but Church Av could handle terminating trains if it is upgraded.
No. The V line is doing its job: relieving congestion on the Queens Blvd. line, contrary to what the Straphangers' Campaign thinks.
Now that *they* have all had their say...
No, I'd not send it there, I'd send it to Chambers WTC, and I'd send the (E) out onto Culver. The problem with more service out there is what to do with it once it gets there.
Once the Bergen Street interlocking is rebuilt, I'd consider my (E)-(V) swap, and I'd then run the (E) express to Kings Highway at least rush hours if not all weekdays.
I would NOT send the (F) express because that would upset the people who are used to the (F)s current routing, and would bitch a storm if they got less service: so they get the same service as now.
The (E) becomes the express (via 8th Avenue of course) giving Rutgers Route customers a new option.
The (G) would then have to terminate at Church Avenue, since the express tracks now used for relay at Smith-9th would now be in service.
The (V) remains a 6th Avenue Local but terminates at Chambers WTC, giving 6th Avenue customers a needed service to the Financial District.
This is possible because of flying crossovers south of West 4th Street that serve the local tracks but not the express.
Of course *ACTUALLY* I'd want to send the (E) via the Fulton Street Local... in which case the (C) would become my Culver Express as described above. But either routing serves this purpose.
You see, it is not a simple matter of saying "Let's extend the (V), but how the whole picture interlocks and shifts because of one (good) idea.
Elias
Forget it,your plan is flawed.That flaw being with the E-V swap at West 4th St. That would cause major delay's and delay's is what need's to be avoided at all costs.
It would cause no more delay than the popular scheme for having both sides of the Manny B open (B 6th Av-Bypass, D 6th Av-De Kalb, N Bway-Bypass, Q Bway-De Kalb). It would be exactly the same move at W4th St, but with a junction set up marginally better. Whether it is desirable is another matter.
"It would cause no more delay than the popular scheme for having both sides of the Manny B open (B 6th Av-Bypass, D 6th Av-De Kalb, N Bway-Bypass, Q Bway-De Kalb)."
True if both locations supported the same number of tph. But the local tracks at W 4th support 25 tph on 6th Ave and 22 on 8th Ave.
At Dekalb, the West End plus Sea Beach supports 14 tph, and Brighton 20 tph.
The delays get worse and worse the closer to 30 tph you are trying to squeeze through each side.
Who says the N would bypass Dekalb? For all we know it could stop at Dekalb that would mean the B would bypass while the D,N,Q stop at Dekalb.Would that still cause delay's?
"Who says the N would bypass Dekalb?"
Actually, I didn't say that the N would bypass Dekalb.
But it probably would. If you look at the Brooklyn Heights track map on this site, you'll see that if the N goes over the south side of the bridge and bypasses Dekalb, it only has to merge with the Brighton service that goes over the south side of the bridge. But if it doesn't bypass Dekalb, it ALSO has to merge with the Brighton service that goes over the north side of the bridge.
Any bridge - 4th Avenue express service will almost definitely bypass DeKalb, at least during peak periods. Doing otherwise is akin to having an express switch to the local track to make one stop and then switch back to the express track, which is never done as a matter of course.
There are six tracks south of DeKalb. There are six tracks north of DeKalb. There are six tracks through DeKalb. All Brighton trains and all tunnel trains must stop at DeKalb. That doesn't leave much room for trains that could bypass DeKalb to not bypass DeKalb.
Depending on the final service plan, it might be desireable on weekends to have 4th Avenue expresses stop at DeKalb. (If the service plan has, say, only the B and Q running over the bridge on weekends, it would be nice to have the B stop at DeKalb so Brighton passengers can get to 6th Avenue without having to walk across the Atlantic-Pacific complex.)
You need to remember that DeKalb *was* a four track local station with side platforms. They *added* two tracks to the outside of this to make a six track line with two island plaforms and two non-stop tracks.
Given this tidbit, you get to see why certain trains go one way and others another.
Elias
And that was in the late 50's to early 60's after the Myrtle Av station was closed [for thoe who don't know]. Yup that's why they do go where they go.
Before Myrtle Av closed, what kinda level of ridership did it attract?
very light in my few experiences. Pay fare on train becase agents were uneconomic IIRC
Right. The 4th Ave express tracks were ALWAYS meant to bypass Dekalb. There original plan had no Montague St. tunnel connection to the north of a Brighton connection to the south. Trains ran either to the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (to Chambers St) or on the north side to the never built Canal St. subway. I'm not sure which bridge side would have fed either local or express routes, or if there were provisions for both Manhattan routes to access either 4th Ave. local or express tracks once the merged north of the old Myrtle Ave. station.
Northbound Brighton had a connection to the bypass track, too, but if there ever was a southbound bypass-to-Brighton connection, that was gone by the early 1950s. I don't think there ever was a southbound Brighton service skipping DeKalb. The Brighton Nassau Loop Specials in the morning did skip DeKalb.
There was a handout at an ERA fan trip in the early or mid-1960s that pointed out that DeKalb is actually a four-track local station; apparently no expresses were expected to stop there but that changed rather quickly, especially if the bypass-to-Brighton rail was never installed.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
DeKalb was NEVER a 4-track station. It may have been intended to be one, but by the time it opened in 1913, it had 6-trackways. The inner tracks were not in use until 1920.
It would cause no delays whatsoever.
There are flying crossovers on the local side south of West 4th Street.
Done correctly, They will interfere with no other trains.
Elias
Just a side question: What is a flying crossover? {My guess is one track goes over/under the other such as the 6th Ave southbound side south of Rockefeller Center?}
Correct, the IND was built with many flying crossovers that the other systems do not have. It is to speed things up so that one train will not block another.
They work well, as designed, but some route changes and re-routes may use fat crossings that defeat the purpose. (An example might be trying to reroute the (C) via the Rutgers Tunnel, it works in Manhattan via flying crossovers, but then it is on the Smith-Culver line, and would have to transvers a flat (service) crossing to get back onto the Fulton, causing delays to both lines.
Elias
It would be nice but don't count on it anytime soon.
I have thought of this idea as well! I like it!
aside from all the IND Phase II plans, were there any other plans for subway expansion within the IND division??
The Phase II plans were the expansion plans. Anything not included in the original system and the second system were post-Unification patchwork, such as the Fulton subway-Liberty el connection.
I thought the Fulton subway-Liberty el connection was second system.
I thought the Fulton subway-Liberty el connection was second system.
Not exactly, the heart of the second system plans avoided "recapture." The second system plan would have gone through the famed 76th Street station. After Unification the plans shifted to take advantage of the Liberty el.
The Culver el connection was planned as first system.
How much would Kinkos charge to scan a map I have of IND expansion plans for 1939?
http://www.kinkos.com?
Yes, and in fact, Mayor Hylan has his own plan before the IND even became a reality. Read all about it!
--Mark
Hylan was the force behind the IND being formed!
If there are any more plans for subway extensions, which division would be most needed??
I think the *most-needed* extension would be on the (7) train. I'd extend it into Queens by just two stops (Parsons, and Broadway) but the reason *why* it is needed is not because we need these two stops, but because we need a better terminal than Main Street, which was, ina all fairness, never intended to be a terminal anyway.
My line would have a two-track, two-side platform station and Broadway would have a four-track, two-island platform station, but the tracks would continue east from broadway, making a wide loop under the existing LIRR station. This non-stop terminal-station system will allow an increase on the (7) line to more than 30 tph.
With a similar loop at the west end, perhpas picking up Javits Center, there is no reason why this line cannot manage 45 tph. That is a dramatic increase in service in an area that truly needs it for relitively little investment.
The Next project would be the same sort of an extention at Flatbush Avenue on the Nostrand Avenue line. The subway would extend to the LIRR ROW is, and would have a two track loop under the existing LIRR ROW with enterances from both Flatbush Avenue and Nostrand Avenue.
Again, great improvement for little investment.
Elias
Why call it Broadway and confuse more people? Call it Northern Boulevard. The 7 already stops at Broadway: 74th Street-Broadway.
IIRC (and my memory IS dusty) there was once a proposal, perhaps the late 1940s or so, to extend the "Steinway" route from Main Street to College Point. I'm guessing this would've used an alignment up Parsons Blvd. to the Industrial Park or so.
It's also interesting to speculate how things might have developed if the Dual Contracts weren't so exacting in 1913. The IRT and LIRR could have long ago conspired and shared ROW for service to Whitestone and/or Bayside. It would be easy to visualize Lo-V's in that LIRR cut through Murray Hill station. Of course, in those days Northern Queens was a dead-end, "no-growth" area and the LIRR assumed it would be wasting its time and money with such things I'm sure...It occurs to me that the person most singularly responsible for the maturity of that part of Queens was Mayor LaGuardia and his city-sponsored bus enfranchisements.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What a surprise... and we name an airport after the guy. : )
Anyway, College Point wouldn't need a a subway line anyway. It's a waste of money that can head over to the SAS. If this extension was carried out decades before, College Point wouldn't be as desolate as it is now.
Why call it Broadway and confuse more people? Call it Northern Boulevard.
Good Plan. The name of the LIRR station is "Broadway Station" not that I actually see a 'Broadway' in that neighborhood. Better to call it Northern Boulevard, since that is were the station actually is.
Hey, that's from your website. Not to be smart with you or anything, but you haven't updated in some time. Can't think of anything else? :)
I am planing an update, but I have a big project (100+ pages) that I am *supposed* to be working on before I can come back to the fun stuff.
But I do have many ideas, and refinements in presentation that I want to work on when I get the chance.
Elias
Broadway is the old name of Northern at that point. But it should be changed -- it's confusing.
There is a plan being developed by NYCT to demolish the south exit at the Flatbush Ave/IRT station and replace it with a 2 track layup area south of the exisiting station using the LIRR R/O/W if necessary (a/la 179th Street or 205th Street/IND). It would definitely ease the delays and burden currently encountered on the 2 and 5 lines. But as we stand now, there will be no new stations south of the Flatbush Ave/IRT station.
Were there ever trains classified M-5?? If not, why not?
no, it was just skipped.
By the time the M-4 was ordered, the pattern had, coincidentally or not, emerged that odd numbers were "Metropolitan" cars (third rail pickup only) and that even numbers were "Cosmopolitan" (New Haven). When it became necessary to order new cars for the NH line only, they were called the M-6. Now that a new Metro class emerges, they are the M-7 instead of reversing the numbering.
Nope, that was reserved for Dr. Daystrom's supercomputer that was installed on the USS Enterprise, NCC-1701.
That is was ... LOL ... and a good episode too !
What was it that the other Captin called Jim Kirt ?
Easy, Captain Dunzel.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's a Nathan Airchime air horn for old locomotives....made in Long Island City.
The M-5's were designed to be single cars MUable with M1/M3 replacing the pullman ACMU's but LIRR vetoed the idea when a shared design was mentioned.
So M-5 was skipped and the new Technologie M-7's were ordered.
Click Here
Nice! Thanks. Same to you.
Hey Jeff,
Thanks so much for the Holiday Cheer! That's a great card.
I Hope all Subtalkers have a very happy and safe Holiday Season!
Bob Andersen and Linda (both new members of BERA for 2003).
Hey Bob,
Now that you're a member of BERA remember the operator's course begins in March!!!
Hey, Sarge! You could've tried to put on a better smile....
Nice card otherwise....HAPPY HOLIDAYS BACK AT YA!
Doug,
I didn't want to really use that pic, especially after retirement, but it was the only picture I could find with all three of us in it!!! Usually one of us is taking the pic so most of our pics have 2 of us!!!
That's a great "card." Sarge.
And best wishes of the season to you and your lovely family!
Paul
What would happen if someone swiped a Metrocard at a turnstile but before the person could walk through, someone exiting the subway walked through the same turnstile the other way?
This morning at Penn Station that is what occurred. I was exiting the LIRR going to the subway and had swiped my Metrocard. The turnstile clicked "GO" but before I got a chance to walk through, a woman came running from the subway and ran right through the turnstile. I was a little freaked out but the turnstile still let me pass.
Have there been any problems with fares being accidentally erased in this fashion?
"What would happen if someone swiped a Metrocard at a turnstile but before the person could walk through, someone exiting the subway walked through the same turnstile the other way?"
I know someone with an unlimited card who says he couldn't get in (for 18 minutes) after that happened.
If that happens, go to the S/A and ask them to "check your card". Tehnt ellt hem what happened. They should buzz you in.
If that happens, go to the S/A and ask them to "check your card". Then tell them what happened. They should buzz you in.
Really! Wow. Looks like I will have to be more careful.
Thanks for the head's up.
I've always been afraid of this happening! It's good to know I can no longer live in fear. Thanks.
---Brian
I've heard that, if you swipe in at a HEET and push the bars the wrong way, you can lose your fare.
I don't know if that's accurate, and the rules at standard turnstiles may differ.
I once swiped at a HEET but the card didn't register. Before I had a chance to step back and try again, someone else swiped behind me. The next time that happens I will consider it a gift.
You do that.
It sounds like you answered your own question ("What would happen . . ?). The turnstile let you through, didn't it?
Yes, but will that happen every time was my question.
You've probably seen the announcement here of the upcoming H&M / PATH exhibit at the Hoboken Historical Museum, which will open in late January and runs through mid-April.
I just dropped off a stack of postcards announcing the exhibit at the NYC Transit Museum store at Grand Central Terminal. So if you hurry, you can pick one up there.
Terry,
In case they run out, could you put some of the details on Subtalk?
Things like location of the Hoboken Museum, how to get there, admission, hours (or at least the website if it has one).
Thanks.
DOH! I was just there on sunday. Anyhow, isn't that author of the H&M book gonna speak at the museum? I saw info about it once and now I can't find it. Can you tell me the details? Thanks.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Sure. For starters:
The Hoboken Historical Museum and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy invite you to
The Tubes: Rails Under the Hudson
1874 to the present-day PATH
Guest Curator, Terry Kennedy
The Tubes opens to the public Tuesday, January 21 through Sunday, April 13.
Hoboken Historical Museum
PO Box 3296, 1301 Hudson Street
Hoboken, NJ
(201) 656-2240
Museum open: Tuesday – Thursday 5-9 p.m.
Saturday & Sunday 12-5 p.m.
For directions:
www.hobokenmuseum.org
Four programs complement the exhibit. Please call the Museum to reserve your seat and to inquire about admission costs:
Sunday, January 26, 3 p.m. “Rails Under the Mighty Hudson,” slide lecture by transportation historian and author Brian J. Cudahy.
Sunday, February 9, 3 p.m. “Antique Stocks & Bonds,” illustrated talk by scripophily dealer Donald T. Mesler.
Saturday, March 8, 4 p.m. A reading of Theodore Dreiser’s short story about sandhogs, by Chris O’Connor, Mile Square Theatre.
Sunday, March 9, 3 p.m. “Saving the Hudson & Manhattan Powerhouse,” slide lecture by Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy president John Gomez.
On reverse: Hudson & Manhattan Railroad postcards, ca. 1908. Collections of Paul Neshamkin and the Hoboken Historical Museum.
The Tubes was assisted by a grant from the New Jersey Historical Commission, a division of Cultural Affairs in the Department of State. Complementary slide lectures were made possible by a grant from the New Jersey Council for the Humanities, a state partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities. Additional exhibit support was provided by Alpine Custom Floors and Alpine Restoration, Sign Graphics, Metro Fire & Communication, Shore Contracting, and John Wiley & Sons.
If you attend, you will be amazed at the amount of material that will be on display. A large part of my collection will be there for viewing, and there will be lots of other items as well. I'm not going to spoil the surprise by "leaking" the list - you'll have to come and see for yourself. Though I expect someone will post a trip report here after the show opens 8-)
To get there, you can take the PATH (of course!) to Hoboken. The Museum is at the other end of Hoboken (13th and Hudson) but it's possible to walk it - go north on Washington, then turn right onto 13th. You can also take a cab from the Hoboken PATH station (currently $3 flat fare) or take a ferry to "Hoboken North" which unloads at (conveniently) 13th St.
Terry,
Thank you.
I will put it on my calendar of things to do in 2003.
Seasons greetings to all subtalkers from Canberra, Australia, where it was 37C yesterday (that's 99F) and where it's generally very hot, very dry and smokey from bushfires: in short your traditional Australian Christmas.
Happy 2003, too
G'day, mate!
Seasons greetings back to you Mate !
Forcast is sleet & snow for Christmas Eve ... as you would expect.
This writer has finished being Santa's helper at a couple of trolley museums. Lots of kids saw Santa for the first time either in the back of a Toronto Peter Witt or a Boston Type 5.
Merry Christmas from Chicago.
Merry Christmas from Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
Be good and be safe,
Paul
And a Merry Merry, Happy Happy from us up here in the Great White North! 24 inches down, 24 MORE inches to go. Yipe!
Depicted left, a future subtalker of the 1950's who now is KING of the BMT. Watch the closing doors please, next stop ... HELL.
Could that be Heypaul? :)
HAPPY HOLIDAYS from Unca Selkirk and Bingbong!
Season's greetings to all from chuchubob and family, including grandson Pete.
Happy Holidays everyone. If only I can learn HTML...
Shouldn't be too hard. There are instructional sites all over the web.
That was a rhetorical question. :)
i was at woodhaven blvd and there was an announcement that there was an incident on the 7 train today.. something about a fire? anyone know what happened?
I tuned to 1010 WINS and I just missed the 'Shadoe Traffic' bit. Luckily, no one was injured.
4:40pm announced at 57th St, no queens bound 7 train to take NRWFQV and the stations you could get those trains at.
The last Train to Wading River. Oct. 9 1938
Bob, thanks for posting that. It's a real shame that line was abandoned. It would be such a well used line now, and even help alleviate some of the traffic on congested nearby Route 347. If it had lasted only a few more years, we may still have had it today.
I believe the ROW is still intact (meaning it hasn't been sold off and built on). I don't know if LIPA or the MTA (or someone else)owns it though. Although trying to resurrect it would be quite difficult, with the NIMBY's - the same people who would benefit from it.
"I believe the ROW is still intact (meaning it hasn't been sold off and built on). I don't know if LIPA or the MTA (or someone else)owns it though. Although trying to resurrect it would be quite difficult, with the NIMBY's - the same people who would benefit from it."
The ROW has not been built on (housing developements) and LIPA power lines utilize it much like the Central Branch.
Bill "Newkirk"
Exactly, but they want to use it as a bike route (12 miles), instead. Why not both?
"Exactly, but they want to use it as a bike route (12 miles), instead. Why not both?"
Trains make noise, bikes don't !
Bill "Newkirk"
Too bad there's not much hope of #35 or #39 running any time soon :-(
At least the two G5s from LI were saved & maybe some day we all can ride behind them & inhale a lot of sinders < g >
Paul Matus will be pleased to know that I submitted the Horsecar idea to the Prospect Park Alliance along with our annual donation (in NYC if you don't pay donations to maintain parks they don't get maintained.) The proposal was informed by Subtalk advice, especially Pauls.
Perhaps they'll think it worthy to put in the "someday" category, although their usual MOs is that if it wasn't on Olmstead's plans is shouldn't be there today. I pointed out that the last stable outside the park could disappear at any time, and horseback riding was definately in the plan (hence the bridle paths grade separated from both the road and walking paths!), so bringing a stable(s) into the park, part of the idea, would be "historic."
Anything to get the fake trolley out of there.
I am pleased ... from your lips to bureaucracy's ears... ;-)
The Zoo wasn't in Vaux & Olmstead either, IIRC, and the renovated zoo looks nothing like when I was a kid (though I think it's better now, especially for the animals).
The caroussel is also not original. A little pregnant?
They have a chance to revive a BIG piece of Brooklyn heritage. Wouldn't it be nice?
You get another S/Tlker in argeement here...I'd be for a horsecar in Prospect Park. It'd bring back a much needed classy -- and romantic touch -- to the park.
Perhaps the OTHER Mr. Diamond would digest the idea of a horse-car with the plans for a trolley in Brooklyn, maybe both?
I hear the hansom cab live-stock are to be evicted from their current stables. Maybe a win-win-win situation all around?
avid
(Perhaps the OTHER Mr. Diamond would digest the idea of a horse-car with the plans for a trolley in Brooklyn, maybe both? I hear the hansom cab live-stock are to be evicted from their current stables. Maybe a win-win-win situation all around?)
There's the big picture. Diamond gets his electric trolley. A Horescar in Prospect Park. A garage somewhere for the museum bus fleet. And more watercraft in the harbor. With hybrid eletric engines increasing fuel economy of higher weight vehicles, bring back the Checker cabs. Add in (for at least a while) subways on both sides of the Manhattan Bridge.
Forward into the past!
Of course, this being New York, the horses would join the TWU and demand $25 per hour.
On the way home tonight I passed by the Metrocard reader for the N, R & W at 34th St. I "swooped" up the bacth of cards that was sitting on top. In this batch were a couple of Zagats , a Safety #1 card and a Safety #2 card.
But the most interesting was a Millenial Journey card - Japanese warrior clan on the move. The card had expired 11/30/00. The card is in very good condition.
I can make a guess as to how this card got there. A tourist visted NYC a few years back, purchased a $15 card from the Transit Museum store, didn't use it up before they left for home. They came to visit NYC after several years had past and tried to use the card but since it expired and was also past the 1 year value transfer period just left it.
This is the 2nd time I have seen such a thing - the first was in 2000 when I found a MetroCard blue card (expired in 1997) at Times Square.
Has anyone else had this experience?
A few weeks ago, I found a recently expired London Transport Visitor Travelcard on one of the MetroCard readers at 86/Broadway.
I also once found a 7-day unlimited that had been discarded by accident. It had been used once, in the morning; I found it that afternoon. For the rest of the day, I had two unlimiteds to choose from, since I had already activated a Fun Pass in the morning.
Last week I found a 7 day unlimited that had been activated a few days before, plus someone wrote 7 day unlimited card (or something like that) on the back
I've found cards with money still on them (ranging from $1.50 to $18).
However, my oddest find was a book of transfers from PalmTran (Palm Beach County Transit in Florida), on the sidewalk at the Q10 boarding stop in Kew Gardens. Maybe one of their drivers was on vacation in NYC?
Zagat cards: Babbo; River Cafe; Balthazar; Gramercy Tavern
Anyone know of any others ?
Safety cards: Why run for the train ? ...; Please, no running in the station. ...
Anyone know of any others ?
"Zagat cards: Babbo; River Cafe; Balthazar; Gramercy Tavern
Anyone know of any others ?"
So far that's the four and only.
"Safety cards: Why run for the train ? ...; Please, no running in the station. ... Anyone know of any others ?"
The second one just came out. They may be more of these from what I heard.
Bill "Newkirk"
If anyone cares, while looking through my kids' inheritance, I noted the readings on the last Brooklyn PCC cars...
SPECIAL
NO PASSENGERS
16th &
McDONALD AVS.
CONEY ISLAND
BARTEL
PRITCHARD SQ.
---------------------------
FIRST AV
BRISTOL ST
CHURCH &
McDONALD AV
8th AV &
39th STREET
PROSPECT P'K WEST
& 20th ST.**
NEPTUNE AV
Where I have lower case letters (th), these are superior CAPS. The inclusion or omission of a period as a noted.
** was a new reading sewn over
10th AV &
20th STREET
So ended one of the greatest trolley systems in the world.
You have lucky kids, Paul, if they are going to inherit a genuine Brooklyn PCC car. Merry Christmas, and I'll try to finish my remembrance of the last North Shore Line trip before the fortieth anniversary rolls around in January 2003. Incidentally, I know of at least one other SubTalker who was on the same train that night.
And I missed the trip by a month... I rode the 'Liner from Milwaukee to Chicago for the last time on either 29 or 30 December 1962 before proceeding back east on the Broadway Limited.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I figured you would have been there.:)
Speaking of last runs, how crowded was that Broadway streetcar on its last run back on 2/16/57? AFAIK Green Hornet 7201 had the honor of making that run.
Unfortunately, I never had the chance to ride a streetcar in Brooklyn or even on the Queensboro bridge. However, I was on the last run of the 36-Broadway line in Chicago, and I have the "proff". My picture was published in CTA's Transit News of the conductor punching my transfer. There was only a handful of railfans present, and the car wasn't too crowded, since Broadway cars ran every 15 minutes all night.
Do you have a copy of this famous photo now?
Merry Christmas and Best Wishes, George!
A whole PCC? I wish. I might even have to convince my wife that it was a great reason to have no room in the backyard. I came by the rollsigns with "sweat equity." Brooklyn Day Camp got (IIRC) six PCC bodies to use as lockers. The owner (who my family knew) let me take the signs and also a PCC bullet light in exchange for doing some painting inside the cars.
I know everyone will love your North Shore memory. I'm looking forward to it.
Best for the New Year,
Paul
What became of the PCC bodies at Brooklyn Day Camp anyway? Were they still there when BDC burned (1981)? Pictures here.
I used to check on those bodies when I would swing past Brooklyn Day Camp. They lasted into the '60s, but I think I saw them gone while BDC was still open. They were used as locker rooms and I suppose they decided they were weren't ideal for the purpose after a while--or maybe they began to leak.
Paul: Thanks for the roll sign posting. Who actually ran the PCC's. Was it the BMT itself or the Brooklyn-Queens Transit Corp?
Larry, RedbirdR33
It would have been the B&QT, but in effect it was the BMT. When the PCCs came out in 1936 the brochures said "BMT LINES PRESENT MODERN STREET CARS".
Thanks Paul. I never seem to get all those BMT subsidiaries straight. Now the rapid transit part was run by something called the New York Rapid Transit Corp wasn't it? I think a few cars actually carried that logo but I could be wrong.
Larry, RedbirdR33
BMT was the umbrella company but it was also the public face of the corporation. The NYRT was the rapid transit operating arm. The subsidiary names sometimes ended up in visible places. For example (of all odd places) the Standards had little round holes in the headboards over the front doors which I think was for lubrication access (the doors were pneumatically operated--something you don't have now). Little round plates over those holes said "NYM", the BRT equivalent of the NYRT, but some replacement plates said "NYRT." SOme of the cool signs on the sides of elevated stairways originally said "MUNICIPAL RAILWAY" but later these were painted over as "BMT LINES."
Thanks Paul. I had wondered how prominately the NYRT logo was displayed.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Wow, I seem to remember the signs that said Municipal Railway on some of the Jamaica Av El stairways as late as the 70's.
By the way, in your original post you mentioned how your lower case letters like "th" were originally superior caps. I'm not sure if you know this but there is an html command for superior: (sup) and (/sup). For example:
10TH AV &
20TH STREET
Sometimes the BMT LINES paint wore off and you could see original wording.
And next time maybe I won't be so lazy and use the "sup" commands. :)
The Brighton Line had those "Municipal Railway" signs at the Brighton Beach station until around 1974.
--Mark
16th Avenue used to run through to McDonald Avenue??
It still goes to Dahill Road, which is the next block west. The loop was known as the 16th Avenue Loop.
Paul....Do you have any idea how the PCC route and destination rollsigns read when delivered to the BMT in 1936? In pictures, I have seen 67 SEVENTH, 68 SMITH ST. and 69 McDONALD/VANDERBILT, but have been told by somebody at the Shoreline Trolley Museum that there were many more routes listed on these cars when originally delivered.
Hayos
Hayos, I don't know them all, but a prominent (and disappeared) route was 28-Erie Basin.
A friend who reads Subtalk (Hi, D--) but never posts gave me this list about two years ago--it was a reproduction done around 1990 from the original, according to his source, but 68 Smith-Coney Island got left off the final printing. It was done by a sign company believed to have the original records.
Here's the information I was given; sorry if the alignment is off--I tried to straighten it out manually.
"Of all the route signs listed on the roll very few were used. Those being 28 Erie Basin line (until 1941), 67 Seventh, 68 Smith-Coney Island, 68 Coney Island Ave., 69 McDonald-Vanderbilt Aves.
Somewhere around the time of the 39-40 World's Fair the cars carried signs to that event." [There might be a picture of that somewhere--no route number, though. There was also a short-lived 72 Smith according to my friend.--Ed]
Destination Signs (Top Down)
SPECIAL
NEW UTRECHT Not Used
AVENUE
UTICA AV Not used
39TH ST. FERRY Used
ROCKAWAY AV Not Used
16TH & Used
McDONALD AVS
ROCKAWAY Not Used
PARKWAY STA.
WMSBG. BRIDGE Not Used
PLAZA
DEPOT Used
DELANCEY ST Not Used
FLATBUSH AV Not Used
AVENUE - U Not Used
E - 71ST. ST Not Used
BORO. HALL Used
E - 49TH ST Not Used
ATLANTIC AV Used Short Turn
SUB. STA.
NOSTRAND AV Not Used
AVENUE - N Not Used
BARTEL Used
PRITCHARD SQ.
NAVY ST Used Short Turn
BKLYN. BRIDGE Used
7TH AV & 20TH ST Used
CONEY ISLAND Used
PARK ROW Used
MASPETH Not Used
LONG ISLAND CITY Not Used
ERIE BASIN Used until 1941
BOX ST Not Used
NASSAU AV Not Used
PROSPECT PK. WEST Used
& 20TH ST
HAMILTON AV Used Short Turn
RIDGEWOOD Not Used
FLUSHING Not Used
3RD AV & 63RD ST Not Used
25TH & HARWAY AVS Not Used
Route Signs (Top Down)
SPECIAL
NO PASSENGERS
8 CHURCH
10 RALPH-
ROCKAWAY
11 RALPH
13 GRAVESEND-
CHURCH
14 WILSON
15 CROSSTOWN
16 GRAHAM
26 PUTNAM
52 GATES
54 MYRTLE-
COURT
28 ERIE BASIN
LINE
34 BAY RIDGE
41 FLATBUSH
AVENUE
43 NOSTRAND
SHUTTLE
44 NOSTRAND
57 FLUSHING
AVENUE
58 FLUSHING-
RIDGEWOOD
67 SEVENTH
68 CONEY ISL
AVENUE
68 SMITH-
CONEY ISLAND
69 MC DONALD-
VANDERBILT
75 SMITH ST
71 UNION ST
Ed......Thanks a million for the Brooklyn PCC info!You don't know how long I've been trying to figure this out. All the signs seem to make sense(from pictures I've seen). Have a Happy Holiday season and a healthy New Year.
Hayos
Here's the one at Branford set for 68 Smith/Coney Island.
Note: This will be deleted in a few days from my Angelfire account for space.
Here's a scan of an old canvas rollsign that I had up in my attic. I wrote to the TA back in the 70's and asked if they had any subway rollsigns I could have, but they said I could only have old obsolete signs, and sent me to ENY to pick up this one:
Are those PCC sign curtains or were they from a bus? 'Shore Road' (at least the Bay Ridge Shore Road) was never a streetcar terminus; I'm not sure about 'Brighton Station.'
They look like they might have been from a post-war GM bus or perhaps a Mack from the 1950s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
They must be from a bus because the date on them is "1959".
Was there a 50 MacDonald Avenue bus? (That is one of the listings on it.)
Whether bus, streetcar, or subway/elevated car, sign curtains are lots of fun to have and to look at.
50 was the route number used on the streetcar line, but when the PCCs were retired, no bus replaced it, but part of the route was covered by extending the Vanderbilt Avenue bus. They apparently were prepared to have a McDonald Avenue bus in case they needed it (or popular pressure forced the issue). A similar non-replacement was the West End streetcar, also the Tilden Avenue-Holy Cross Cemetery Shuttle, and probably others.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
["They look like they might have been from a post-war GM bus or perhaps a Mack from the 1950s"]
Not to get into a bus discussion but did they use Macks on those routes? The only Macks I remember (other than the Av B East Bway busses) in the city were either in Coney Is or Staten Island. I'm talking about the 60's. In Nassau I remember Macks on only the Hempstead Bus Company.
I don't know specific routes, but I remember when they introduced Macks on Fifth Avenue, in the summer of 1954 or 1955--I was working in my aunt's gift shop on Fifth Avenue across the street from St. Patrick's Church. I don't recall seeing them on any other Bay Ridge lines.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
After you posted this about Macks on Fifth Avenue I went looking through Dave's site and I found the following picture of a Mack owned by the Fifth Av Coach Company. So you have a great memory!! Seek and ye shall find!
Coincidences--I meant Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn and St. Patrick's Church on Fourth Avenue and 96th or 97th Street.
8-)
Ed Alfonsin
I thought you might have meant Brooklyn because you mentioned Bay Ridge in your post but when you said Saint Patrick's on Fifth Avenue I figured you had to mean Manhattan. I thought maybe your aunt's store was in Rockafeller Center. I had no idea there was a Saint Patrick's in Brooklyn. Now I'm going to have to find a picture of a Mack on Fourth Av, no easy task! :)
mack buses ran out of ulmer park,flatbush and eny. up had the b9,b34 and b68 among others. probably b64 and maybe thats where you saw them.
I saw the Macks on the B-63 Fifth Avenue, which was the only bus line operating along that stretch of Fourth Avenue.
BTW, there were still streetcar tracks on 99th or 100th Street (I forget which) since both Third and Fifth Avenue trolleys terminated there, but no overhead. If anyone is in that area, are there any trolley poles (the curb ones, not the ones on top of the cars) surviving?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Wowsers! neat looking stuff, and in GREAT shape. You DO realize that Unca Lou and Unca Thurston are already plotting a break-in now for 1001 at Branford? :)
Was looking over the "collection" and noting in a search that Bob Marrero did a Sea Beach line (N train) for BVE, but have been unable to find it anywhere. Does anyone have JUST the route file? It would probably be named NYCTA-N.RW ... does anybody have a copy of this one?
I don't think he did, I have one really crappy N line which runs express over the bridge but expects you to stop at every local station, including Myrtle Avenue, from the express track.
There are a bunch of new lines floating about which you can find at www.bve-routes.com. I did both the D (which needs some work) and Q (which was decent enough) today and have volunteered to do the announcements for the guys doing these modifications to existing routes.
They ALL needed some work. :)
That sounds like the N line I'm looking for - the solution to the stops that you AREN'T supposed to be making is to look for the appropriate "Station" lines in the RW files, set the ",1,ats" at the end to ",0,ats" (1 means stop, 0 means skip the stop) and then remove the FIRST time line (arrive time) and just take it out so that it looks more like this:
Station(Union St,,11.3920,0,ats)
instead of
Station (Union St,11.39,11.3920,1,ats)
Fixing a sitch like that in the RW file is easy. It's some of the other things that present more of a challenge. I also have the skeleton of the Canarsie line. Assuming there's some free time in the coming months, I was planning on cleaning up a number of the discarded classics. Have already done the R, Q, D, G, B and a couple of others. Opening up a D train at 72nd to dump geese on the third rail wasn't my idea of fun either. :)
I know how to change that and did it on the Q (6th Ave). The person who is doing the routes now (link from www.bve-routes.com) just puts a ; in front of the station name, so they don't appear at all. Their Q is much better although it is missing a few curves and this person doesn't seem to believe in speed restrictions. I took a train of R68As off the south side of the MannyB at about 50 MPH yesterday. They also don't have the Beverley Road curve or the long curves from Prospect Park to Atlantic Avenue, nor do they have the grades from Prospect Park down to 7th Avenue. Finally, they expect you to pull into a "reverse siding" at 57th Street, I just dumped in the station.
It looks like a few promising routes will be coming your way, although they won't be like the LU routes and the 7 and E. By the way, have you ever done my BVE route (WMATA Red Line)? A little warning for you: It is not like any NYC route you have ever done.
Bless you! Yes indeed, of COURSE I went and grabbed the Red line! :)
If you have that N line thingy handy, would appreciate it. You can email it to me - knowing how Robert did things, I'm sure all I need is just the wee RW file ... THANKS for mentioning bve-routes.com ... it's actually coming together from the looks of it. Can't fathom why Mr. Marerro went over to the dark side with MSTS, it's a pretty crappy sim as far as RUNNING a train goes - pretty lame "action" to the trains, although it'd be nice if Mackoy adjusts the next version for the ability to cause a BIE on passing a red and perhaps being able to put a train on the ground.
Always got a kick out of the name "Boso" for it, means "crazy driver" in Japanese. :)
THANKS, bro!
Mr. Marrerro didn't make those routes that are being modified, they were done by "TonyWalnuts" and are being modified by someone named Travis Alexander. Mr. Marrero is serving at as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until some time in 2004. He had left his website online but it was taken down for whatever reason. Travis and his friend are hosting Mr. Marrero's route as well as the other E, which I imagine is of TonyWalnuts quality. I would not be surprised if the L that Travis is working on is Mr. Marerro's skeleton, which I never downloaded.
Hope you enjoyed the Red Line, I never figured out the train file so some things aren't perfect nor could I get too many objects in but it gives you a pretty good impression, doesn't it? I hope you can handle my announcements, some operators are extremely annoying to listen to.
Heh. It was JUST FINE ... so was the train. That's a piece of it that I have yet to figure out myself because that R44 really needs some R44 touches ... the SOUND of the brakes is OK, but that panel. I *really* liked what R68A-5200 did with that R68A panel of his - a TRUE class act. Same for the 142 and 143 panels. The rest of them are all variants of the Flushing line redbirds - nice, but basic. One of these days when I have time, I've gotta get my chops together on writing those TRAIN.DAT and PANEL.CFG thingies ... from what I've seen of MSTS stuff, BVE's going to be with us for quite a while yet. :)
I saw the Tony Walnuts stuff, VERY nice ... I have the L line here, and aside from it needing the elevated end done, the tunnel portions aren't bad - what I'm more in mind to do is go with smooth curves, the gleiss switches in smooth curves and doing something about those awful tunnel walls. Something a little bit MORE "ta" ... one of the other problems with Marerro's work is that his runs are excessively long between stations, but those are all major overhauls. Still very nice routes nonetheless.
But MAN would I like to get my hands on that N line, cut a CD, mail it to California and give Sea Beach Fred something to *DO*. I'd even make sure it goes over the damned bridge and runs ONLY on the express tracks. Heh.
On December 23rd I took an "A" train downtown to Broadway Nassau. Between the Chamber Street station and Broadway Nassau station the train stopped and passengers were told that due to a sick passenger on the train ahead thy will be delayed until the train with the sick passenger leaves the station. A few minutes later the conductor sez that we will be moving into the station and only the first car doors will open to let passengers out and all other passenger going on would have to wait. The conductor said he will open the inter car doors which are locked so the passengers can walk thru and get thru to reach the first car. I was on the last two cars and all of us got up and waited until the conductor opened the doors. We saw the people walking thru the cars but our door would not open no matter how much we pulled. This is a something that if it was a real emergency we would have all died and improvements would be made after the tragedy. I can see now how much you check the system on the trains and still you want raises.
Theres a saying abotut the FAA, FBI and the MTA how everything is written in blood with these agencies because every safety improvement required a deadly incident to happen. MTA-Williamsburg bridge, Union Square, FAA-Valujet in 1995 And I think the FBI speaks for itself.
This is all due to the cheapness of those in higher power. The MTA can check all those doors if they want to, but it will cost to much money until the next deadly incident(god forbid), then the MTA will magically come up with the money to fix the door problems.
>>"Theres a saying abotut the FAA, FBI and the MTA how everything is written in blood with these agencies because every safety improvement required a deadly incident to happen."<<
I absolutely agree with you on this statement, it always takes a tragedy to make improvements like as you mentioned the Willy-B disaster of 1995 before they made it pokey slow [it could be a little faster]. Don't forget about the Columbus Circle disaster. Now on the FAA, Valujet was not on the FAA, the company itself was bad but they did not penalize them as much as they should have, now the Pan-Am Flight 103 disaster could have been prevented. Security even today still has its holes to fill. You see what happens when you have too much money.
"Don't forget about the Columbus Circle disaster. "
Either you mean Union Square disaster or else I already have forgotten about the Columbus Circle disaster!
CG
Or, you could have just kicked out the window on the storm door in case of a "real" emergency.
What sparked the idea of making every side window on all cars of PATH to be "forced in or out in case of an emergency"?
When the train is moving, I can see the windows wobbling in and out because only one plastic window covers a large area.
I don't know. Every once in a while PATH gets a brainstorm and then pretty much drops everything to implement it. The side windows on the PATH cars have been this way for quite a while now. Shortly after they did it, they had a bunch of windows pop out due to crowding, so they had to add the stainless steel crosspiece. The employees don't like 'em because they leak when it rains and then the passengers complain.
Other brainstorms they've had include:The "Emergency Cabinet" behind the cabs (a good idea - they've saved a few lives with it).
Passenger alert switches - also a good idea.
Retrofitting the pre-PA4 cars to have separate near/center/far door controls and then never using them - a waste of money.
The never-ending quest for more indicator lights on the sides of cars.
Changing the door controls from the old "railroad style" key to a round Ace key - I don't know what prompted this, but the Ace keys and locks will not hold up to this kind of use. They did the entire fleet over the span of a week or two.
Adding ladders and bridge boards at each station (either in stainless steel cabinets on the wall or exposed and chained to the structure).And the most recent ones, currently in progress:Changing the end door glass to have single-piece windows instead of drop sashes. This has implications they may not have considered, and I expect we'll see a couple of them popping into the cars before they catch on.
Adding additional fire extinguishers at the conductor's position. I wonder how long it will be before they go missing or are vandalized?
Adding additional fire extinguishers at the conductor's position. I wonder how long it will be before they go missing or are vandalized
Hehehe. Think of all the late night fun one could have with one, though >:)
>>>I can see now how much you check the system on the trains and still you want raises. <<<
Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
Or TWU 100, for that matter ;)
So because a storm door malfunctioned, it's the train crew's fault? Get real. When was the last time you were able to solve a problem before you knew it was a problem?
I'm starting to get tired of taking the heat for things that I cannot control. I don't control when a train gets taken out of service, I don't control when somebody gets sick on a train, I don't control when I have door problems, and I don't control when the train in front of me has problems.
You got problems with the way something was handled, then take it up with the people who can actually do something about it, not the low man on the totem pole.
Ordinarily, I leave such posts alone and I keep my mouth shut. But lately, I'm becoming increasingly intolerant of these people who badmouth every single transit worker. If things are that bad, hire a limousine service to take you back and forth where you don't have to worry about such things.
You mean the crappy economy ISN'T your fault? DANG! Gonna have to go beat up a bus driver then. :)
Can't say I blame you for your words at all though - in the 70's, deferred maintenance was MY fault.
Unfprtunately when something happens in the subway, people tend to take it out on the first TA personnal they encounter. Usually it's the T/O. C/R or the S/A. I'd like to rant back at the customer who blames me for an incident that just happened. But I'm not likely to win that arguement. I just give rerouted directions and a block ticket to each customer at the booth either with a smile or in a non-threatening way. If they want to call up on me, I show them the phone number in the booth window. If they call, I hope they don't make up charges against me. And I hope they don't wait around for me afterwards!
For the next few months, I think people are going to be ticked off at TA employees they encounter. The general feeling I get is the fare will be going up to pay for their raises. Even though no TA personnal will actually see the first raise for about a year and a half. $1000 bonus not counting.
If someone says they'll hire a limo to drive them around, I'll just smile and think about the gridlock they'll face.
I don't think that $1000 will show up for a while either - lump sum payments usually occur at the END of a fiscal year, and this year's budget is going to likely be the LATEST EVER ... September perhaps, lump sum next December if this goes the way it usually does. So when the TWU brothers and sisters take it in the ear, there'll be nothing to show for it. Some of the talk up here is another MAJOR hit in cigarette taxes and "why stop at $2.00 for a fare? Why not $2.50 and put the extra 50 cents into the general fund?"
From what I've been hearing (two weeks now until "budget school") this year's going to be a CORKER. But Joe Bruno's getting ANOTHER train station for himself, and enough pork to open a chain of restaurants. :(
I've heard the $1000 will be in July. I'd be satified if it comes in December just before Christmas. If it is lumped in with the regular paycheck and gets taxed at a higher tax rate,, I'll probably be able to get a new pair of uniform pants or 2 and not much else.
Hard to say when it'll actually come in ... but ONE thing for sure, it WON'T be in any TWU pockets when the fare hike comes down. It's been a number of years since I did my last "lump sum" ... so I forget exactly when the eagle would crappeth. But it sure wasn't SOON.
Meant to add ... the "lump sum" payment is ALWAYS a separate check with deductions taken ... but it's a separate check. Like I said, been a LONG time for me, but the dues were taken, but not the other items like health and stuff. Taxes of COURSE. Makes for a nice bender though. :)
A seperate check. But the tax man gets his little fingers in it taking his cut.
But of course! After all, Senator Joe needs a new pair of boots. :)
At least a pair of boots for every employee working for him!
Ah, you don't know Joey do ya? In order to get your free boot, you'd have to move to TROY. But Joey does reserve the right to determine precisely where on your anatomy the boot is applied. In other words, don't go there. He's a kinkjob. :)
Good lord, uniform pants cost $300 apiece?
BTW I never realized that you guys had to pay for your own uniforms.
Peace,
ANDEE
We are required to wear uniforms. Every 3 years or so we get to pick out a new set of clothes according to out measuements. BTW the clothes are free. TA pays us $50 a year to have them cleaned. After tax it's more like $35. Not much for the entire year..
How do you get reimbursed? I never heard of this uniform cleaning allowance in RTO.
"How do you get reimbursed?"
$50 a year.
As I said, as a member of RTO, I never got reimbursed a dime.
And as a member of Stations, I was reimbursed $50 a year. The money lasts longer when I throw the clothes in the washing machine instead of the dry cleaners.
Hey, its better than getting $0 and then paying for that as well! Looks like the TA doesn't know their math if they provide $50 but then it goes down to $35.
It's all the taxes!
Damn taxes! Everything these days are taxed food, clothes, paychecks anything of decent value is taxed and sometimes can be a little heavy.
>>> Looks like the TA doesn't know their math if they provide $50 but then it goes down to $35. <<<
It looks more like the employee does not know how to take the proper tax deductions.
Tom
What would you suggest?
>>> What would you suggest? <<<
The cost of cleaning your uniforms is a tax deductible expense. If you spend $50.00 (or more) per year on dry cleaning uniforms, you deduct $50.00 (or whatever you spent) from your income for tax puposes, and therefore the $50.00 received from the TA is worth $50.00, not an after tax $35.00.
Tom
"The cost of cleaning your uniforms is a tax deductible expense."
Unreimbursed employee expenses are only tax deductible to the extent they exceed 2% of your gross income. Most people don't reach that 2% threshhold.
>>> Unreimbursed employee expenses are only tax deductible to the extent they exceed 2% of your gross income. Most people don't reach that 2% threshhold. <<<
There does not appear to be any such limitation on uniform maintenance expenses, but they must be claimed on Schedule A which means itemizing expenses. If a taxpayer is using a standard deduction it is because it is more favorable than itemizing, so they are already getting more knocked off their income than the $50.00 uniform allowance.
Tom
>>> There does not appear to be any such limitation on uniform maintenance expenses, but they must be claimed on Schedule A which means itemizing expenses <<<
Oops, my mistake! It has been so long since I itemized deductions that I did not realize that one of our many tax cuts put that sneaky 2% provision in the law.
Tom
Deductable expense?
On lf if you can claim 2% of your income went toward the expemse. For $50,000 income that means you have to had spent at least $1000. Very few people can say they have.
Cut the workers some slack. It was an R44. Those things have mechanical failures if you sneeze on them too hard.
In a system this large and this dependent on mechanical devices, failures are not only unavoidable but inevitable.
IOW, sh!t happens.
A train has many many mechanical and electrical parts, a very complicated machine. Once passengers in the forward cars come through, it is the responsibility of the conductor to physically walk the train to see if there is a situation you described, then manually unlock the doors. Dis this happen, or by the time you would have been left out, your train was able to enter the station fully? You never said either way. There has to be a controlled exit, not a stampede!
Yes but if a criminal wanted to get into your car, he would have been foiled.
I assume this is your first posting here so let me give you a few pointers.
First - It's A Train and not "a train".
Second - This site is frequented by many NYCT employees of all callings. We're willing to impart much in the way of information but most of us dislike criticism from uninformed sources.
Third - The R-44 subway car has an electronic lock which is de-energized by removing the voltage from it. It's designed to open in an emergency but many homeless, peddlers and vandals have found a way to defeat the lock and pass through cars - illegally and illadvisably. This sometimes damages the lock - frequently after it's been checked.
Fourth - The end door glass on all 75' subway cars is actually not glass but a semi-flexible polycarbonate. It is designed to be removable by customers in the case of an emergency.
Fifth - I assume you did not get the car number. If you did, you could have reported the car and it would have been pulled from service and repaired.
Now, aren't you glad you asked ??????
>>"First - It's A Train and not "a train"."<<
You could have just changed the the A into a capital. Ok, I'll change it happy ;-).
>>"Fifth - I assume you did not get the car number. If you did, you could have reported the car and it would have been pulled from service and repaired."<<
Seems like the person did NOT get the car #.
Thanks for the informative follow-up.
Your welcome. I guess you feel better now that it's a capital (A) LOL. Some people gotta learn how to use the CAPS lock key or shift to use capital letters when necessary 8-).
definitely.
Just to clear up a few points about the early days of the C and CC;
C and CC trains began operating when the Grand Concourse Line was opened on July 1,1933. C trains ran between 205 St and Bergen St (LL)
displaying "JAY STREET-BORO HALL" signs. Trains ran extended rush hours on weekdays and Saturday morning and afternoon. C's ran express between 145 St and Canal St in both directions and express on the Concourse Line in the direction of traffic. CC trains ran between Hudson Terminal and Bedford Park when the C was running and 205 St when it was not.
Effective July 1,1937 C trains run between 205 St and Hoyt St. A few C's continued to run to Bergen St stbd in the am rush and ntbd in the pm rush. CC remained the same.
Effective Dec 15,1940 with the openning of the 6 Avenue subway C trains continued as above but CC trains would run between Hudson Terminal and Bedford Park during weekday rush and Saturday morning and afternoons. There was no longer a need for full time CC service as the D was now running.
Effective on Jan 10,1944 or sometime earlier three morning C trains ran between 205 St and Utica Av making three round trips. They ran lcl on Fulton St.Midday Saturday C service was discontinued.
Effective October 24,1949 C service was discontinued. CC's were re-routed to Bway-Lafayette during weekday rush hours but Saturday service continued to Hudson Terminal.
Saturday CC service discontinued December 29,1951.
Effective October 30,1954 CC trains would run between Bedford Park and Hudson Terminal during weekday rush hours.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The Rutgers Street Tunnel opened on April 8,1936 and E trains provided the first service operating through to Church Av and replacing A service which now ran to Rockaway Av via the Fulton Street Tunnel.
Effective December 15,1940 the 6 Avenue Subway opens and E trains are cut back to Bway-Lafayette St. The new F now runs via Rutgers St to Church Av.
Effective October 30,1954 the IND is extended to Coney Island via the BMT Culver Line and the F is cut back to Bway-Lafayette. The D now provides full time service via Rutgers Street to Church Avenue and Coney Island.
Effective November 26, 1967 to the present F trains provide service via the Rutgers Street Tunnel to Coney Island.
Has anyone looked at the 91St abandoned station recently? Well, the S/B platform have a mural for Jam Master Jay who was killed the day before Halloweeen. The N/B platform is sporting a "Happy Birthday" message for some chick. The new "artwork" has been up for a couple of weeks now..........
Maybe SeVeN can answer that one :)
On the subject of the 91st Street Station, does anyone know what is the thing that looks sort of like a heating unit on the north bound platform?
Well, Well, Well, its seems to me that our little Straphanger friend had just got his first free subway ride in his lifetime. I still wondering why that little fury creature (Squirrel) stared me straight in the eyes few hours ago on the R42 L Train. Hmm he board the L train Wilson Avenue and get off be4 me at Livonia Ave without saying goodbye. How Rude! But, why did he stared at me with he strange looking eye. I Know why he stared at me, cause he thinks that I'm gonna report him to conductor so the conductor would throw him off the train for not paying his fare (AH HA HA HA...LOL). Or he thinks that I'm gonna scared him off. Now, Let see. there reports of Animals riding the subway. First the Bat, then the cat, now the Squirral. HMM who's gonna be the next to have his first free subway ride later on. A Skunk! But I wouldn't be surprised if I or anyone see one. By then any Subway car be contaminated with Skunk' odors.
I believe there was a 'Tunnel Vision' article done that involved talking about pigeons hitching rides on the Rockaway line.
Betcha the squirrel is just a reincarnated motorperson looking for their biweekly nut. :)
groan
One can always make their OWN joke ya know. :)
Merry Kissmoose to ya just da same though.
skunk cant stink no worse than the homeless bums already riding.
I bet that little twit had traded his acorn for a subway ride. Let see 2 Acorn = $1.50.
Maybe the skunk will be employed by MTA to act as a spokesman for people to leave the station in case of major service disruptions.
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.(LOL) OH You are so funny. AHAHAHAHAHAHAOHMYGOD. Like the chiWaWA saids. "Pss Yo Quero MTA."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A31389-2002Dec23?language=printer
a "balanced" article. Detail worth considering. In the FRA track defect report one of the 'headline' locations on the ex B&O main which had been re double tracked and upgraded for the Conrail split--ie, it was recently worked on but still defective. Item two, while not soo carefully running CSX Snow had time to support Gingrich's fight with Clinton over the budget--insisting on cutting welfare.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Just what we need , delays at entrances to the system.
Put the friggin things on the trains, run MTH ads. Dr Zits commercials, heypaul documentary sound and sight bites, scenes from Selkirks roundrobin sexcapades in the r143s.
Theres all kinds of educational stuff begging to be foisted upon the riding prolitairet.
avid
>>>Just what we need , delays at entrances to the system. <<<
We already have that. The morons with yellphones who perch themselves at the top of the steps before descending down the stairs. Self absorbed assholes that they are.
Peace,
ANDEE
You certainly have that right! I don't think we should entertain them with the screens at the entrances.
A far off corner in the station , with and insurance ad for extend senior care at a lovely farm/spa in Middland Texas.
avid
First step towards KENO in the subway cars. I'm surprised nobody's wondering how LONG those nifty widescreen TV sets will last? Has NYC changed so much that a TV set left on the street will still be there INTACT in the morning? I'm disappointed in your guys and gals. :)
Something in that story doesn't add up.
100 screens at $45,000 apiece is $4.5 million. If you're only getting annual revenue in the "tens of thousands" it doesn't make sense.
I suspect that Clear Channel is buying the screens and getting the advertising revenue. The "tens of thousands" that the TA will get must just be location revenue for the placement of the screens.
CG
Clear Channel is on the verge of bankruptcy ... I'm wondering who they're gonna stiff for all those TV sets. :)
Between all the radio stations and concert halls (see Jones Beach) they control, they're bankrupt ? I thought monopolies don't go belly up! Although a quasi monopoly Coach USA is hurting if you read Bus-Talk.
Don't know how effective those screens would be. Many of the malls have signs that rotate the pictures in a vertical manner every few sections. Does anyone even notice them ? Also similar to the bus wraps. Are they cost effective.
Assuming the screens go up does CC have committments from ad agencies for the time on the screens ?
Ad revenue's WAY down and Clear Channel sucked up WAY too many stations at a time when revenue ... well ... sucked. They own two TV stations up here in Smallbany and all but six radio stations. Employees of clear channel play "bounce the check off the parking lot asphalt" before entering the bank. Yeah, they be hurting.
One of the amusing bits in the article was "we don't know how we're going to charge for the advertising" ... typical Clear Channel Texas business mentality ala Enron ... maybe they'll back-bill those ads to themselves and then bill one of their internal partnerships, yada yada. :)
Rapid expansion is a red flag for just about any business. In addition to Coach USA and Clear Channel which have both fallen victim to this, FAO Schwartz is having huge financial problems for these same reasons.
CG
>>>Rapid expansion is a red flag for just about any business.<<<
Except, it seems, Starbucks.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Rapid expansion is a red flag for just about any business.<<<
>>Except, it seems, Starbucks. <<
Patience Andee... their day will come.
CG
I can't wait.
Peace,
ANDEE
Any business capable of doing THEIR markups can expand exponentially. Starbucks' prices (considering the crappy coffee they sell) would be like paying $35.00 to ride the D train one stop. :)
You have a point after all it is only flavored water.
Peace,
ANDEE
Even Pepsi can't do THAT markup. Heh. Even more amusing though is those other guys charge for the sugar, the milk, the napkin, it's like Microsoft. Oh wait. Microsoft is a major stockholder in Starbucks. 'nuff said. :)
And badly flavoured water at that. I don't know about you, but their coffee is so strong it tastes like mud to me. The Second Cup is much better - their coffee's much better, their prices are lower and they've got a shop right inside my subway station, above the northbound track. I don't see how Starbucks can beat that combination...
-Robert King
What was I THINKING???? I was discussing mere city-saving rapid transit while you huns were trashing my STARBUCKS!?!? I have GOT to keep up with more threads at once. Starbucks is going to replace Microsoft and Disney and sell everything from clothes to books and I will buy it all, because I am AN ADDICT. (not to mention a doormat who will pay any upcharge for anything). LEAVE THEM ALONE.
I like Starbucks because of their Frappucinos and other cold coffee-based drinks. I don't drink anything hot.
Rapid expansion is a red flag for just about any business. In addition to Coach USA and Clear Channel which have both fallen victim to this, FAO Schwartz is having huge financial problems for these same reasons.
FAO Schwartz ran into trouble after acquiring Zany Brainy, formerly known as Noodle Kidoodle. Must be something about the cutesy-poo names ...
Yeah, the cutesy-poo PRICES. This has largely been a Wal*Mart and Target style Kissmoose, folks have been avoiding the "premium" stores. I'm hoping the hobby stores survive this one.
You got it backwards.
Zany Brainy BOUGHT FAO schartz i beileve. The whole toy industry is hurt by the wal marts of the world plus the original toys that FAO Schwartz were famous for are now fairly common place
Ad representation deals are usually based on a spit rate ex: 60/40 clear channel or 60/40 MTA.
Clear channel is only going to be placing these screens in high traffic, high visability areas where they can demand a higher ad rate. Plus they are going to be rotating multiple advertisers vs. only one advertiser on a traditioal displays. They will make thier money back fairly easily. This allows them to increase thier inventory in valuable locations which always equals big dollars. You will never see such a screen in say washington heights for instance.
In addtion you need to realize the cost of deploying and lagistics of an outdoor ad campaign is fairly expensice (print the ad, crews to physically place ad in locations). The ads on the screens can be deployed from a central location using an ad management package such as doubleclicks DART product.
Anyone want flat panel screen, cheap?
I bet a good number get either boosted (heh:) or just smashed, esp if clear Channel puts their name/logo at the bottom.
I mean, really, you see two semi appropriate looking guys unbolting a screen and loading it into a van - who's gonna say anything?
Hope the T/A isn't paying for this!
Two semi appropriate guys got away with walking out of a Bay Outfitter's store (during their brief existance) with a canoe, of all things. So, I agree completely... It would be entirely possible for a group of people to drive up in a generic van wearing generic uniforms, something like coveralls with a name badges like 'Mark' or 'Stan', carrying toolboxes to one of the stations with the flat panel screens and remove a couple of them for 'repairs'.
:)
-Robert King
I can't wait until the first one of these thing's are bashed in by a baseball bat.
That is a great NEW YORK reply. I love it.
Wonder if Clear Channel has come up with some sort of flat-screen TV that runs on direct current only, sort of like the left-handed threaded bulbs the subways use to use to prevent people from "borrowing" light bulbs from the R 1/9 or earlier cars or from the station platforms themselves to use at home.
I suppose 22nd St. and Broadway was picked as the test site because it is a fairly low-crime rate area, and the entrance itself (if it's the one I'm thinking of) is located pretty much out in the open and in the view of people walking north or south on the east side of Broadway. So the visibility from the street should be pretty good even for people not taking the subway, considering the entrance itself is not that heavily used.
If the thing can't survive the vandals/thieves there, it probably can't survive anywhere (though I'd probably at least put an extra layer of shatterproof glass in front of the screen if I were CC or the MTA...)
A few CoachUSA questions: What happened to them? And in what way were they a monopoly? How did they go belly-up and is that why they are currently British-owned?
If you think that flat screens at subway entrances are ridiculous, wait until you read THIS:
Police cars in Fla. town to sport ads
Washington Post
Sept. 01, 2002
If you saw a car in your rearview mirror with flashing lights and a McDonald's logo on the hood, would you pull over?
In these days of budget-cutting and creative financing, a Florida Panhandle town commission has voted to purchase a fleet of 15 police cruisers for only $15, but resplendent with corporate sponsors.
The mayor of Springfield, a suburb of Panama City with 9,000 residents, estimates his town will save $500,000 over the three years it takes for delivery on the new cruisers, half the Police Department's annual budget.
"Roughly, we are talking about $1 million in cars and equipment that is going to be freed up to do other things. We could hire more police officers; the Fire Department needs another truck," Mayor Robert Walker said.
"We don't want to do anything that would make our city a laughingstock. We have pretty much final say on the designs; it can't be anything with alcohol, tobacco or gambling. It is going to be a recognizable police car."
"If it doesn't go well, no other police department is going to go for it," Police Chief Sam Slay said. "I've had calls from Arkansas, Mississippi, St. Louis, Orlando, Miami police departments asking about this."
The cars come from Government Acquisitions in Charlotte, N.C.
Charging the cities a dollar a car legalizes the contract.
Went to look at this today, and assuming the sign would be facing the stairway, I saw an unlit Diet Vanilla Coke ad and said "this is it?" But that was the back of the sign. I was assuming a sign that size would be plasma, which you now see all over, but it was full color LED's! Not simply separate red, green and blue LED's together, but each diode is full color. The only other signs like this I know of were at ESPN Zone and the CBS Morning Show studio window at Grand Army Plaza. Those were much bigger, but now as they are getting smaller, it shows they are becoming more economical. RGB LED's are still expensive, though, and this is why the sign is $45,000. (In all 3, the pixels have space in between them. Not sure why. In other LED signs, the pixels are usually right up against each other).
Wouldn't it be nice if the MTA could get Kawasaki and its other vendors to use the technology on bulkhead route signs, interior and exterior destination signs, interior message sign (R-143) and station message signs, all of which are currently single color or at the most RYG only. If they used them on buses, for the first time ever they could display map route colors. They seem bright enough to be visible in daylight. Hopefully by the time the R-160's are built, the price will be down even further, and Kawasaki will have the signs available as an option.
People here mentioned potential destruction of the signs, but they are probably very durable. Unlike CRT, LCD and plasma, in which the pixels are built into the glass screen, LED is a solid state techology, and they are arrayed in square panels. You can break the glass covering, but that will not affect the electronic display. Even a baseball bat might damage a few panels, but these could be replaced easily.
Why is everyone so hell bent on non-red bulkhead signs? Does it really matter what color the sign is?
I guess folks got spoiled thirty years ago in the stone age days when the front of trains were a veritable palette of colors. You could actually tell what train it was from two stations down the line. Of course now in our modern whizbang Hi-tek world, we've enahnced things so much, one color fits all. And Ted Turner even managed to colorize Citizen Kane in all those years. :)
Aside from the flat screen ads for subway stations, why not flat screen subway maps that changes route patterns according to the time of day. That way riders would understand which trains stop at a certain station at a certain time. For instance, late night(4) service to New Lots is not shown on the map, but it says it in the service guide. Not too many people take their time to read that. But anyway whats the problem? PATH has their maps on T.V monitors in stations.
Ha, The MTA IS at least 20 years behind the times in the way of tech advances. BART started in the early 70's with signs/Monitors in stations anoucing the destination of arriving trains, OPTO/Automated operation, Farecards and farecard vending machines ect.
"PATH has their maps on T.V monitors in stations. "
When you only have 13 stations in the entire system it is easy to do.
No so easy when you have 467 (468 with Cortlandt St) stations.
When you only have 13 stations in the entire system it is easy to do.
If it is never started, it'll never get finished. Metrocard was phased in over time (and was supposed to provide the fiber insfrastructure for updated in-station announcement/display devices).
Shame on you! That'd be LOGICAL! :)
They could be on the platforms and on the trains as well.
On the platforms they could announce which train is pulling in on each track and give the destination and next stop (useful in case a scheduled local is running express or a train is diverted to a different line). On the trains they could list transfer opportunities at upcoming stations. On both they could list scheduled diversions.
Does anyone know if anymore of these signs have been installed? All 100 were supposed to be up in Manhattan below 96th by March? The only one I've seen is still the first one on 23rd St./Bway
Take a look at the attached R42 picture. It sports a huge black "J" on the front. I was unaware that the original gigantic front bulkhead signs carried the single "J" designation, only the grey "QJ". Am I wrong or is this picture a fluke?
Strange....I remember a SMALLER white J on a black background... the one in this picture must have been an field alteration.
Wish we could see the side rolls better, they'd have the answer.
The pic is from 1977, well after the QJ bit the dust. But the J font looks funny too. Here's what a J would look like on the "large" pre-1978 R42's:
Notice the J has a more definitive curve on the bottom. It could be a field modification. Only a couple of sets of R42's ran on the J in the late 70's. This car clearly has the older 1969 signs, which had no plain "J" on it. Could it be a modified "LL"??
The one I have has a small "J" and "K" but a large "M". I've never seen this variation.
wayne
Could it be that the rollsign was placed in backwards?
Paul
I thought that too, but at the time there was no L train, just LL.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its most likely just a diffrent variation made by Trans-Lite. Just like the first R40S displayed a green 'F' when on display, at 34th st.
The reason the "F" looked green was that there were green flourescent tubes (the kind they used in the R16/27-30/32 side signs) installed behind the magenta "F" sign on some cars! I actually saw a Slant in "EE" service, with its front end sign either missing or rolled-up AND the green flourescent tubes bare for the world to see.
wayne
No, I was talking about the actual green sign, look in the New York City Subway Cars book, and you'll see what I mean.
Whoa, now that's strange I never saw a large J roll sign, had to be a variation, I only saw a single J roll sign when the rollsigns were changed to accomodate the current bulle scheme. Looks like it was installed after the QJ was eliminated.
I had a strong desire to go to Gertz Department Store in Jamaica to do some last minute Christmas shopping, but I discovered that the 168th Street Jamaica line station was recently closed. For no apparent reason, I went to 168th Street on the #1 instead.
This is a stunningly beautiful station that I have been to several times in the past. A couple of questions though, which weren't answered by the 168th Street information at this site.
From what i read, the wall lamps are using high intensity lighting now. But were those lamps incandescently fired in the past? If so, did the station have a more somber tone with that light?
Are the crossovers original? They do not go well with the barrel vaulting to my eye.
I was at the north end of the south bound platform and looking into that gated stairway when I noticed that there was a 168th Street Station plaque kind of hidden behind the stairway BUT most strangely very low to the ground. It was a couple feet lower than the nearest sign like that. Anyone know why this is so low to the ground?
low to the platform sign
Those big lamps were installed during the station renovation. They just LOOK retro. The pigeons love 'em, they just sit there and doo their thing.
The crossovers are original, IIRC. Not sure about the tablet. Next visit there I'll check it out.
wayne
Wayne... What was the source of light at the station before the renovation? We noticed there were several beautiful ceiling medallions. Was there a single bulb associcated with each one, or was there a chandelier hanging from each one??
Are you serious about pigeons?? We didn't see any last night. How would they get down there?? Unless they came through the tunnel from Dyckmann Street portal.
Thanks for the info, and I'll be curious what you make of the 168 tablet.
Any chandeliers were probably removed years and years ago. Looks like the same people who brought us City Hall Loop brought us this one too, based on the shape and style of the medallions.
The light that predated the globe-type fixtures were pretty much your standard "outdoor" square mercury-vapor fixtures. I don't know what preceded that. The first time I ever saw that station was in 1969. By then the flourescent light was in the low-ceilinged parts (south end, etc.) and MV fixtures were up along the wall near the beginning of the arch every 20 feet or so.
Pigeons get in two ways - via the old elevator shafts and the Dyckman Portal. Last time I was there, they had made quite a mess about, and were found strolling along the platforms and flying about. They like to perch on top of the globes and along the outside of the crossover.
wayne
Yes, I've seen pigeons there on many occasions. That station sure is dark. It could use about a hundred more lights.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
I always thought that a pregnant pigeon made her way in there by stowing away on a train and then giving birth.
Since then that whole society has lived there from the one pigeon.
but I discovered that the 168th Street Jamaica line station was recently closed.
Ummm... if you call recently about 15 years, then I guess so. :-)
More like 25 years ago (closed in 1977). But remember that J trains now terminate a few blocks west at Parsons and Archer/Jamaica Center.
>>"I had a strong desire to go to Gertz Department Store in Jamaica to do some last minute Christmas shopping, but I discovered that the 168th Street Jamaica line station was recently closed."<<
>>"168 St in Jamaica closed back in 1977 and the portion from after 121 St to Queens Blvd was closed in 1985, so it ain't that 'recent'. I was at the north end of the south bound platform and looking into that gated stairway when I noticed that there was a 168th Street Station plaque kind of hidden behind the stairway BUT most strangely very low to the ground. It was a couple feet lower than the nearest sign like that. Anyone know why this is so low to the ground?"<<
Masybe b/c of the A and C running over it or maybe b/c of the change of elevation but I do not know for sure.
Heypaul raises some interesting questions. I wonder what the station looked like in the period 1906-1932, that is, before the Independent was opened. My memory of the 1940's is crowds at the mezzanine level, which I now realize was probably caused by the cramped design of the Interborough fare collection area vs. the spread-out mezzanine of the Independent. Until 1948, to transfer, one had to leave the IRT fare zone and pay another nickel on the Independent, which at that time was considered a more modern, faster ride downtown. I have a vague recollection of some old, some new elevators to the southbound Interborough platform, but I cannot trust my memory. With the introduction of the ten-cent fare, I recall a fence was built in the center of the connecting passageway to separate paid passengers from those who had not yet used a turnstile. With the free transfer, the crowds at the elevators increased. As for lighting on the station platform, perhaps paired incadescent bulbs along the walls in (bronze?) horizontal fixtures.
I was snooping around on Google and found 2 sites with some more info on 168th Streeet.
The first site talks about the presence of the pigeons.
The second site is a student project on improving the 168th Street station. This is a Google html version of the original page, which on webtv takes a little reading between the lines
I found one other reference which I haven't seen yet. It is a Christopher Grey column in the New York Times from his column of April 21 1991.
Boy, this site is really for the birds!
Paul, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the pigeons RODE the 1 or 9 trains to that stop and got off? I mean, they're known to be fare-beaters from previous accounts, so why the 'mystery'?
Check 'em out here.
When you get there, click on "pictures" at the bottom of the screen to see the rest.
Steve: Thank you. The pictures are great. The outside one is terrific. Selkirk in the motorman's cab lends an air of authenticity to it.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Ah, if only I had seen WHO was right under the anticlimber, I woulda given her a notch. :)
Sure was nice running an Arnine again - wish I wasn't so tired, I would have kept her going until the cops had to come back to remove *ME* from the property. Heh.
NOW the skunk's out of the bag! Remember how many times I said they'd have to surgically remove you from the cab?:)
It's a lot more fun running 1689 now that you're not doing it for a living anymore, right?
Heh. It's twoo, it's twoo ... I always loved the Arnines. It was the Transit Authority that I despised. Now Unca Sparky is a strict by the rulebook kinda guy and all, but at least with Unca Sparky as TMO, that rulebook doesn't change every 4,000 feet. It was nice to run a train only having to satisfy Unca Lou and Unca Sparky, and as I recall I wasn't asked to fill a cup at the end of the run. That's always good too. :)
Glad you liked them. I have some light rail pics I'm going to scan eventually, including one of a train busting through a banner when the new spur line opened last April. Gotta try out my new toys and learn how to use them.
Let's try this again. Sorry about the gaffe the first time.
Check 'em out here.
When you get there, click on "pictures" at the bottom of the screen to see the rest.
NICE stuff ... and you caught me sitting down on the job. That group shot is humorous ... all I needed to do was throw the reverser and subtalk would have been a ghost town. I wonder what the proper code is for a multiple 12-9? :)
A strike!:)
Hahahahahahaha ... Nancy was thinking "144-81" but that's better. :)
Steve, I like the shot of the 'No Foaming in Cab' sign in the R-9.
Also, Bing Bong struggling with the switch lever is another good one (I know it wasn't THAT hard to throw :).
OH, I'm telling the boss you dissed her. :)
"No foaming" is alive and well and hanging in my R143 cab here. Man, wish I had realized when I had pulled in there how easy it would have been to take out a LOT of subtalkers with just one notch of power there. Heh.
I've got one of those No Foaming signs, too.
Good! Then they both went to good homes. That, and all the other fantastic humor by all sure did make that subtalk handle time outing a once in a lifetime highlight. THANKS for coming up with the idea, bro!
It all started when Brightin Exp. Bob suggested I come out a few days earlier than originally planned (Saturday instead of Monday and one thing led to another.
The Branford subtalker's handle time road-eo was an absolute DELIGHT. It'd been a long long time since I last ran an Arnine, and that was the penultimate fix-me-up! Gotta do THAT again. :)
Very nice Steve, looks like you caught almost all of us in your photos. The one of Kevin in the cab ... I can here Bing-Bong saying "OK, enough playing, time to go home now ...."
Heh. You were there when she said it too. Whoda known it'd be ME trying to drag her away from the restaurant? :)
DEFINITELY the most fun I've had in about twenty years coming out to play with you guys ... can't WAIT to do it again!
Nancy took a similar picture at about the same time I did.
For immediate release:
December 24, 2002
What's new for Metro in 2003
As 2002 concludes, the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) is looking ahead to 2003 with new services, new challenges, and a continuing dedication to provide the best level of transportation services found anywhere in the United States.
"As we reach the end of the year, Metro is looking ahead to 2003 with a continued commitment to being an integral part of the national capital region by providing safe, reliable, and convenient transit service despite the significant financial challenge that we are now facing," stated Christopher Zimmerman, Chairman of Metro's Board of Directors.
Here is some of what Metro has planned in 2003:
Metrobus
• In 2003, during the month February, Metro will celebrate the 30th anniversary of Metrobus service to the greater Washington metropolitan area.
• Beginning this spring, and continuing through the summer, Metro will install a new SmarTrip bus farebox system on all Metrobuses. The $20 million contract for the new fareboxes will provide the foundation for a seamless, regional, "smart" fare system with the replacement of the old fareboxes. Similar equipment will be installed on all the local bus systems and the commuter rail systems serving the metropolitan area and the state of Maryland. The new fareboxes will have the ability to accept SmarTrip cards, which are currently available to customers utilizing the Metrorail system. SmarTrip cards are permanent, rechargeable farecards which are plastic -- just like regular credit cards -- and embedded with a computer chip that keeps track of the value of the card. In addition to accepting Metro's SmarTrip cards, the new fareboxes will also continue to accept cash fares.
• In 2002, Metro placed 164 Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses in service. In 2003, Metro will continue its efforts to help reduce the emissions in the capital region. Metrobus will begin and complete the installation of the majority of over 600 exhaust after treatment filters on its diesel fleet. These filters will nearly eliminate the particulate matter (PM) emissions. In addition, Metro will repower 100 buses with new engines that meet the latest EPA regulations. These engines will not only nearly eliminate PM, but will reduce nitrogen oxide (NOx) by 40-45% from previous EPA requirements.
• In spring 2003, rehabilitation work at the Southeastern Bus Garage will be completed.
• In spring 2003, Metro will award a contract for a second CNG facility at Four Mile Run Bus Garage in Virginia.
Metrorail
• Metro is continuing to take delivery of its new series 5000 railcars. The cars, which came on line in August 2001, are currently operating on the Green, Orange and Blue lines. Metro has accepted 96 railcars, and expects to have the entire fleet of 192 new railcars in service by summer 2003. This deployment will enable Metro to run all six car trains during peak periods.
• This year, Metro will reintroduce into service its first rehabilitated series 2000/3000 BREDA rail cars. The cars will look very similar to the series 5000 cars. In 2001, Metro awarded a contract to Alstom Transportation Inc., to rehabilitate 364 rail cars. With many of these rail cars in service for nearly 20 years, Metro initiated rehabilitation to modernize these cars.
• Construction for the Red Line New York Avenue Metrorail station, and for the Blue Line extension to Largo, continues. Both projects are expected to be completed by the end of 2004.
• In early 2003, Metro will open its new $132 million Branch Avenue rail yard, located in Prince George's County, Maryland. This new yard will have storage tracks designed for 178 railcars along with a new railcar wash maintenance facility.
• This spring, Metro will open a new expanded entrance at the Mount Vernon Square/Convention Center Station to serve patrons at the new convention center. This new expanded entrance will have new faregates, four new street level escalators, and two new street level elevators.
• This spring, a new parking structure will open at the Shady Grove Metrorail station on the Red Line. The new structure will provide space for 2,140 cars, increasing total spaces available at Shady Grove by 1,530.
• This summer, a new additional 1,000-parking space structure will open at the Franconia-Springfield Metrorail station on the Blue Line, expanding the number of spaces at the terminal station to approximately 5,000.
• This summer, Metro will have completed work on installing a canopy covering the balance of the platform at the Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Metrorail station.
• In fall 2003, Metro will award a contract to begin access improvements to the Ballston-MU Metrorail station to handle the increasing number of customers in the growing Ballston neighborhood.
• This spring, Metro will award a contract to construct a new mezzanine and canopy enhancements at the King Street Metrorail station.
• In early 2003, Metro will award a contract for a new parking structure at West Falls Church.
• In spring 2003, Metro will award a contract to construct an expanded New Carrollton rail yard facility, and parking structures at the College Park and New Carrollton Metrorail stations.
• In early 2003, Metro will complete Huntington Metrorail station parking garage renovations.
• In early 2003, Metro will start renovations at the Anacostia Metrorail station parking garage.
Escalators/elevators
• This spring, Metro will start construction of canopies at four Metrorail stations (Brookland-CUA, L'Enfant Plaza, Medical Center and Virginia Square) as part of the Comprehensive Escalator Canopy Pilot Program.
• Metro plans to modernize 11 elevators with units scheduled for completion in 2003 at Huntington, Friendship Heights, Arlington Cemetery, Fort Totten, Metro Center, and Mount Vernon. As part of a six-year program to overhaul 32 elevators, Metro will have completed 30 elevator units by the end of 2003. Escalator modernizations and controller upgrades will occur on 44 units throughout the system, including McPherson Square, Clarendon, Crystal City, Metro Center, Farragut West, Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, Pentagon City, Medical Center, and Rosslyn.
• By the end of 2003, Metro will have completed rehabilitation on 112 escalator units as part of a six-year program to overhaul 170 escalators. 2003 will also see the completion of the systemwide comb plate repairs on 14 remaining units under Metro's multi-year program for this essential work.
• In early 2003, the Vertical Transportation Panel will issue a report on Metro's elevator and escalator program, reviewing Metro's existing policies and procedures for repairing its aging escalator and elevator fleet, and provide recommendations on what can be done to improve this service. The report will also include information and recommendations from Metro's escalator and elevator mechanics.
Safety and security improvements
As part of its ongoing effort to improve safety and security, Metro will implement the following safety and security measures in 2003:
• Increase and enhance police and safety capabilities, by adding 10 police officers to increase coverage and visibility at core transfer stations.
• Install programable intrusion equipment to alert police of the exact location of any unauthorized intrusion into the Metro system. Installation is expected to be completed by fall 2003.
• Metro will continue to install intrusion detection alarms at its rail maintenance facilities. Complete installation is expected by the summer 2003.
• Metro will continue installation of its chemical sensor program to additional stations. Installation is expected to completed by summer 2003.
• 100 Metrobuses have been equipped with video cameras to record incidents on buses and to deter crime. The buses will primarily operate on routes that have higher rates of incidents occurring.
• Provide personal protective equipment and training for 5,000 front line Metro employees in the various operating departments. All front line employees are expected to have this equipment and be fully trained by spring 2003.
• With the installation of a new radio communications system, Metro will add an Automated Vehicle Location (AVL) system to all Metrobuses and its support fleet to pinpoint their exact location at all times. The installation should be completed before the end of 2003.
Technology enhancements
• In 2003, Metro will continue work to complete above and below ground infrastructure enhancements for its fully integrated 490MHz Comprehensive Radio Communications System designed to provide Metro with a complete
radio communications system for the Metro Transit Police, bus, rail, and maintenance departments. By summer 2003, Metro expects complete installation of the Metro Transit Police Department radios and mobile data terminals, and the Metrobus radio system installation is expected to be completed by the end of calendar year 2003.
Project development
• In 2003, environmental assessments and preliminary engineering work will continue on providing rail service to the Dulles Corridor. Metro is preparing this technical work under the direction of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
• In 2003, Metro will continue the development of a draft environmental impact statement on the proposed Purple Line, under the direction of the State of Maryland.
• In 2003, Metro is preparing technical work under the direction of the District of Columbia on proposed transit services within the city.
Operating budget/funding issues
In 2003, Metro's executive staff will be working closely with its Board of Directors to close a $48 million shortfall within the projected fiscal year 2004 annual budget, a $275 million shortfall in its six-year Infrastructure Renewal Program (IRP) beginning in fiscal year 2006, and looking to secure $625 million needed to purchase an additional 120 new rail cars and the necessary support systems to allow us to begin the operation of 8 car trains.
At this time, Metro's executive staff has proposed $24 million in cost reductions, and is developing a plan that will help raise $24 million in revenues to close the budget deficit. To understand the current situation, it is necessary to review Metro's financial situation.
Since 1995, Metro has enjoyed strong ridership growth, with revenue growing faster than the operating subsidies provided by the jurisdictional partners. During the period of fiscal year 1999 to 2002, Metro's total ridership grew by 17.5 percent. This created annual operating budget surpluses totaling $79 million, which were rebated to the jurisdictions. Now that the originally planned 103-mile system is complete, Metro can no longer count on 6 or 7 percent ridership growth.
Besides reduced ridership, the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks added to operating costs by increasing insurance costs and by raising new security and preparedness priorities. Health care benefits and paratransit services have also become major cost drivers. While local government budgets are stretched to the limit, they have agreed to increase their subsidy levels for FY 2004, as this is a strong vote of confidence.
Background
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) was created by an interstate compact in 1967 to plan, develop, build, finance, and operate a balanced regional transportation system in the national capital area. The Authority began building its rail system in 1969, acquired four regional bus systems in 1973, and began operating the first phase of Metrorail in 1976.
Today, Metrorail serves 83 stations and has 103 miles of track. A fleet of 862 rail cars provides service from 5:30 a.m. to midnight Monday through Thursday, 5:30 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Friday, 8 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Saturday, and 8 a.m. to midnight on Sunday.
Metrobus serves the nation's capital 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week with 1,455 buses. Metrorail and Metrobus serve a population of 3.4 million within a 1,500 square mile jurisdiction.
A sampling of Metro accomplishments in 2002
• Metrobus riders had the opportunity to catch a cleaner mode of travel as Metro introduced its first new environmentally friendly - compressed natural gas (CNG) low-floor buses. A total of 164 CNG buses were delivered during the year, and the Bladensburg bus garage was upgraded to support CNG operations.
• Metro issued contracts for the continuation of construction of the Blue Line extension to the Largo Town Center and for the new Red Line station at New York Avenue. Both projects are expected to be completed in late 2004.
• Metro unveiled its new emergency training tunnel facility located at its Pennsy Drive site in Landover, Md. The new safety training tunnel provides a realistic environment for fire, police and emergency response departments from local jurisdictions to use for mock fire and rescue exercises, terrorism and disaster drills, and other simulations involving Metrorail trains and tunnels.
• Metro's Board of Directors selected Alstom Transportation, Inc., as the company to build 62 new rail cars known as the series 6000, with an option to buy an additional 120 cars.
• Metrobus officials began testing new high-tech fareboxes that accept SmarTrip cards on buses departing from its Arlington bus garage marking the first step toward extending the use of smart card technology on the entire Metrobus fleet and other transit services throughout the region.
• With safety and security a top priority, Metro installed new bomb containment trash receptacles near the fare vending machines and faregate areas of all Metrorail stations and returned retrofitted newspaper recycling receptacles to all of its 83 Metrorail stations.
• Metro's Transit Police Department introduced eight new explosive detection canine dogs to patrol rail cars, stations, and Metrobus garages throughout the region.
• Metro's Board of Directors adopted a 10-year, $12.2 billion Capital Improvement Plan designed to preserve the rail and bus system and adopted a new Strategic Plan.
• Metro's Board of Directors selected a locally preferred alternative (LPA) under the Dulles Corridor Rapid Transit draft environmental impact statement process, choosing to expand Metrorail through Tysons Corner, into Dulles Airport and eastern Loudoun County, VA.
• Metro released a Regional Bus Study report exploring the efficiency and effectiveness of the region's bus service and documented approaches to double ridership by 2025.
• Despite the downturn in the economy, ridership continued to grow in the Metro system. For the calendar year, total Metro ridership grew by 2.7%, with a 3.6% growth on Metrorail and a 1.6% percent growth on Metrobus. In addition, Metro's paratransit service -- known as MetroAccess -- grew by 39% for weekdays and a dramatic 140% on weekends.
• Metro continued to introduce its new series 5000 rail cars on the Green, Orange, and Blue lines, accepting 96 of its 192 rail cars.
• Bike racks became new fixtures on Metrobuses as Metro officials purchased and installed a bike rack on the front of each of the transit agency's more than 1,400 buses.
• Metro declared its car sharing program a success after a year as the transit agency expanded the scope of service offered to Metro's riders and enhanced their options for travel in the region.
• Metro broke ground on new parking structures at Franconia-Springfield and Grosvenor-Strathmore and completed an environmental report for a new primary structure at the West Falls Church Metrorail station.
• Metro unveiled a new second entrance to the King Street Metrorail station, offering patrons a new direct covered north entrance to the existing mezzanine with access into the station from King Street.
• In November 2002, Metro unveiled the new voice-activated Ride Guide.
• Metrorail recorded its third highest weekday ridership in its 26-year history as it carried 718,747 customers on April 15, 2002 in part due to the pro-Israel Rally at the U.S. Capitol.
I've only been to Washington twice and the last time was back in 94 or so.I remember that farecard system in the Metrorail very well but what I want to know when and if I'm able to return there and obviously I'd want to take a trip around the entire rail system,would I be able to do that and if so,how much would I have to pay for the SmarTrip card? And also where can I get pictures of all the trains or at least most of them in the U.S. online? I'd like to see what these new rail cars for Metro look like.
All the info you need is right here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Article in the Times.
So now subway is going to sell sandwiches made with deli staples like pastrami and corned beef?
Mmmmmm. Can't wait to have curried BLT on pita. :)
theres been a subway car in goldens deli on staten island for twenty years. its half an r1-9.
I think we know where the other half is. :)
Yeah, right. Just try to get some beef in New Delhi!! The cattle walk the streets there!
Feh ... don't have to travel THAT far ... come on up and spend a night in Troy. Moo. :)
'Bout time. There's been a subway in Hungary for over 100 years and nobody had done anything about it...
and if youre hungry why not come to the subway deli in staten island.
Click Here for the first picture of the NEW New Delhi Subway's inaugural run!!
I think you're mistaken, Jeff. That looks like the hind end of any westbound afternoon rush Northeast Corridor train as it pulls into Edison!
At first I thought it was the R-9 charter at SubTalk Day at Branford.
bravo! I was going to say MetroPark! or Elizabeth (Broad Street Elizabeth).
Bah humbug, I posted that photo last week.
I know! That's how I got it!! Thanks!!!!
Oh! You're welcome!
Wow, if only the Lex during rush hour could have that much open space...
Correction to the NY Times article, this is the third (not second) metro to open in India. Chennai (formerly Madras) opened its MTR elevated system in the late 12990's.
correction, meant to type late 1990's
hey guys just wanted to say happy holidays from me and the MTA Metro North Railroad. happy new year and may the rails and the railfans ride on......
I don't know if you guys heard this already but I heard on the news earlier that the MTA is proposing to raise the fare to $2.25, which would be a WHOPPING 50% INCREASE!!! This is just insane, there is no way I would pay that for the current at times slack service the hell with that shit [pardon my language], paying $1.50 is bad enough but I am very upset at this possible plan. What do you guys think of this?
Total Bullshit[don't pardon my language].
Arrgh. What is the MTA coming to? Certainly, the 100% fare increase they had back in the earlier 1900's did not even match to this.
It sounds like the usual trial ballon, so that when it goes to $2.00 you will think we made out well.
Exactly. tell people it'll be 2.50, then raise it to just $2 and the mindless public will feel like they got a bargain.
1.75 is more than enough of an increase, and no increase ought to take place until they open their books. if they want to cry poverty, they better prove it.
I agree with you!
I agree with that assessment. Make it sound really bad out the gate, then when the price goes up but not as high as previously rumored the poor suckers will think they actually got a break. Just another way of sticking it to the consumer. My take is that it is going to have a very unsavory effect on those who are having trouble making ends meet. Then, again, it seems these are always the people who get hit the hardest.
Let's go back. I am sorry if I had missed this, but why is MTA proposing an increase for the subway?
Here it is. The MTA claims it will be in a $1.1 billion dollar deficit; which I find hard to believe; so we [the passengers] have to deal with a fare increase to help plug the deficit. Plus, if the TWU approves the contract they just negotiated last week, we'll have to pay for that too :-\. The passengers always get stuck with bullshit like this and its not right >:-o! There might be more to why a fare increase is needed but these things are the main issues.
Your right,a 1.1 billion dollar deficit sounds fishy to me.They make million's of dollars per day.Sure that goes to a whole bunch of things but there's no way there can be a billion dollar deficit,it's just plain ridiculous.
Yes, I do NOT buy that if you have a $200 million+ surplus a year, how do you have a $1.1 billion deficit, no way I think its a lie and its just greed. I read in the Daily News that the top execs make over $150,000 a year and Presidesnt Reuter makes over $220,000 a year, so upper management can't seem to do the math on the budget but on their paychecks the math is perfect. This is what happens when you have too much money and you have shady execs.
The MTA never had a surplus, all they had was a lower than expected deficit.
This year they have a higher than expected deficit because of lower tax revenues and still mounting costs.
The subway hasn't made a profit in decades.
As for executive salaries: You can claim there are too many executives with an MTA salaries, but $220K is fairly low pay for a top executive compared with the high salaries that the executives of private companies make (not counting outright theft).
Yes, that's true.
Don't believe everything you read in the news. That could be twisted as well.
If you try to compete for even competent top management at those salaries, you'll get yet worse morons, who'll say they need to hire more middle managers and supervisors, etc., etc. Adequate top pay and sense of public service are both required. But if what I'm reading about the military-style supervisors-of-supervisors is true, it's the NUMBER of managers that's the problem.
Is there someone who could act in the people's behalf and ask to check the MTA books? One point one billion in the hole? That sounds like a load of crap to me. Where the hell could that amount of money been sent? Of course, no one will step in and speak for the people so they will get the shaft again.
Yes Fred, I see it that way too. We all wonder how the MTA could be running a $1.1 billion deficit then it would rise to $2.7 billion the next year, there is more than they are releasing/telling the public.
I would like to know where all of that money is disappearing to. Where are all the leaks?
#3 West End Jeff
We all want to know where it went. I have a feeling that the $2.25 possible fare is blown out of proportion and that is unlikely and when I heard that I got heated as you see in the first post and I cooled down now. However, don't rule a fare increase out [including the $2.25 proposal] b/c you know the deal with the MTA.
Four words ... "Joe Bruno" and "train stations" ... and LOTS of goodies for nice major corporations in Santa's sock. And a sock full of quarters for the rest of us. :(
>>"Four words ... "Joe Bruno" and "train stations" ... and LOTS of goodies for nice major corporations in Santa's sock. And a sock full of quarters for the rest of us. :("<<
LOL, we'll be lucky if we even get dimes or pennies in our "stockings" ;-). But you know how it goes the people in power get more while we get stiffed :-(.
Could be ... but remember a sockful of coinage feels pretty much the same no matter what the denomination when applied upside the head. My church welcomes ALL denominations, but my favorite is the $100 bill. :)
Any fare increase is going to be painful for many people. Hopefully, the fare will go to just $1.75. Maybe it will go to $2.00 in the worst case scenario.
#3 West End Jeff
Hopefully I hope it goes to $1.75 as well but not $2 unless there are drastic changes that would make the system worth $2 and w/o the MTA proving whether they are really in the red.
At least you agree with me that the fare shouldn't be raised past $1.75. $2.00 and especially $2.25 is too much.
#3 West End Jeff
A $2 or $2.25 fare not with the current services they provide and their probable lies on the budget, its unjustified.
Tax cuts and unfunded mandates from the federal level were a good piece of this newfound loss, so was the lack of economic leadership. tax cuts are fine when you're awash with money and can't spend it fast enough, not so smart when you can't pay the bills. All those $300 checks add up and now it's time for the little people to pay up so the fat people can have another bottle of Chateau Neuf ...
Welcome to the Land of the Great Unwashed......[can YOU smell the STINK in the air?]
I beg your chardone! We've got a cement pond and indoor plumbing now. We'se MODERN! Ayup. I believe you're smelling TROY. :)
I don't see this on Newsday, the Times, or NY1.
I'm hearing $2.50 up here for what little political trial-balloon filling is worth. State needs a new pair of shoes. After all, can't charge them suburbanites ... their gift will be huge hikes in taxes. Bend over, time for New York to be "made hole" GOP-style ...
I think they need to reorganize this 'monopoly' and consider privatizing some bus lines. Also, they should force the upper management to take a paycut or be subject to being fired or suspended w/o pay for 30 days. The city is already hit with an 18% property tax and layoffs are possible so that's our gift from these absent minded politicians Doomberg and Parturkey for repealing the commuter tax, he finds money for health care, we vote him in and then we get stiffed by other things anyway. Just thinking about a fare hike is sick enough, with this lousy service currently HA.
Just to put it in perspective, that "no layoff" clause in the latest TWU contract pretty much tells you where MTA's planning to go. Not YOUR way ... and 18% for a hike ain't bad. Ours upstate went up 35%! And they're coming back for MORE next year. This is the reason though why I'm always popping off about Bruno - he's STILL dipping his hands into the till, even with all this financial doom. He's STILL looting the treasury. As far as Doomberg though, it's the STATE that calls the financial shots for the city, all he can do is sit there with his thumb up his arse and take the BLAME. Bruno runs NYC from up here ever since the Financial Control Board was created ...
And Bruno wants MORE champagne and by gum, he'll have it. As Leona Helmsley put it, "only the little people pay taxes." :(
Just to clarify, the "no layoff clause" to which I referred has been REMOVED in the new contract ... the way I phrased it would make it seem as though there wouldn't be layoffs.
The state looted the treasury AND they loot the MTA out of $300+ million a year. They are lucky that NYC is what it s or else it would be a small market state and it CANNOT live w/o NYC. A 35% property tax increase is rather steep but you see upstate you guys make more money for the same jobs than NYC since it is not as large & dense. You're right, Doomberg doesn't have much say in a lot of these things but he gets he same amount of blame as the state. BTW, the MTA is NOT going our way, it hasn't since they created that slogan, it still does not and this trend will continue in the future.
Huh? While I agree with you, salaries upstate are typically half or less than what you make in NYC for a comparable job. NYC is considered a "high cost location" and thus premiums are paid for those who work in the city. That's why folks who live in the suburbs prefer the torture of commuting to trying to make their nut where they live. But when you get WAY upstate, the costs of living are typically lower and the wages are MUCH lower. You pretty much have to make your OWN gig up here since jobs are scarce. The 35% hike is DEVASTATING upstate, and a lot of people are losing their homes because they can't afford the outrageous taxes. I was almost one of them last month.
As bad as Bruno and Paturkey have made life in NYC, believe me, they've made it *far* worse upstate. They came and shafted us KNOWING we'd robotically re-elect the creeps. Down there, they held off on the shafting and alas, now it's time to pucker up for the reality we got PLUS the interest caused by the delay in letting reality settle in. But for anyone who wondered why Unca Selkirk's been going apesheet over Bruno and Paturkey, it's the city's turn in the barrel now. :(
Get this Selkirk, our state is 34.8 billion in the hole. You heard right, 34.8 Billion big ones. And you guys thought your state was screwed up. Governor Davis then appoints the same jerk to got us into trouble over the energy contracts last year to his top financial advisor. And Selkirk, this state is run my the Dems, so party affiliation is no benchmark for greed, stupidity and incompetentcy. Fortunately, we may have big Arnold coming to our rescue in four years but by that time many Californians will be so taxed out they won't know what hit them. How come there are so many stupid politicos around?
Fred, maybe you and I and Q can throw a party and invited all our colleages here if our N goes back to the bridge by 2004
You think Q would come? He's a Brighton man and right now he's a little chapped at the message I sent him on Subtalk. Seems he wants nothing to do with one of his Q's in the Montague rat hole.
"What do you guys think of this?"
I think that the media made this up, or took a really far-fetched possibility and tried to make a big deal out of it. I have VERY LITTLE trust in the media, especially when they report on TA proceedings. Did they even say when/where this idea came up? Because if they didn't, I'm sure it isn't an idea at all.
Nope, it is not a media fabrication and the MTA is really serious. It was on Ch 7 this morning, they said the MTA is considering hiking the fare 75 cents which would make the fare $2.25 a 50% increase.
$1.50 is dirt cheap, and an increase is long overdue.
$2.25 is a tad high, probly is a bargining point, so that when they settle at $2.00 the pols can claim to have saved the farepayers 25c.
Elias
there is no way I would pay that for the current at times slack service the hell with that shit [pardon my language]
I AGREE! I don't know how many of you ever use the A to JFK, but I live on the Far Rockaway branch (and Lefferts is just as bad), but the headway on each side is 20 minutes, DURING THE DAY! So to ask these customers out here especially to pay anything more than what they do is insane. When the A gets to HB-JFK all of the seats are already gone, so its not like you have no ridership out there judging that service. Now you want them to pay more for the same crappy service. Its just plain bull plop. BULL PLOP!
>>"Its just plain bull plop. BULL PLOP!"<<
Nice word LOL. But seriously, it is stupid that the MTA could even come up with this outrageous plan of hiking the fare by 50%. While we had a run of no fare hikes for 7 years, it might be time for a hike even though I am AGAINST a fare increase. It would be 'justified' if the MTA is in financial trouble and if the service improves dramatically other than that forget it and the RR riders may get hit with a 20-30% increase so NYCT won't only get hit.
"But seriously, it is stupid that the MTA could even come up with this outrageous plan of hiking the fare by 50%."
Nobody here has been able to verify that MTA DID come up with this "outrageous" plan. Every newspaper article I've seen has talked about a $2 fare, not a $2.25 fare. Please name the source.
David
WABC-TV reported it yesterday or the day before - their source was the LEGISLATIVE budget commission. There's been MUCH discussion of what gets cut, what gets taxed, and who gets left on bat up here in Albany, NONE of which is set in stone as yet - what has been reported statewide is TRIAL balloons and "feelers" ... but there IS serious discussion of "zero-summing" MTA up here which would require 100% farebox recovery. In the end, the subsidy is likely to be cut, but not completely abolished.
Governor's budget message about a week after the State of the State should have some ACTUAL details ... until then, it's just political zizzing gasbags up here stampeding towards any cameras and notebooks they can find. :)
Selkirk, would an actual breathing human being suggest full farebox recovery on an urban transit system (making it the only unsubsidized transportation on the planet)? Do they actually not read anything at all about this technology? I'm stunned.
These are REPUBLICANS. They expect AMTRAK to do so also. My suggestion is Enron accounting - have every station agent "buy" their tokens and cash drawer every day, declare a loss at the end of the day and the MTA will be the most profitable thing since Microsoft. :)
But YES, they REALLY BELIEVE that the Subway can make more money than Lotto. :\
I take the 'A' at JFK when I come in from a trip to the West Coast. I take the 'Red Eye' and get in around 6:00 AM. By the time I get to the Howard Beach Station about 30 to 45 minutes have passed. When the trains come in from the Rockaways they are crowded. I consider myself luckey to get a seat most of the time.
What surprises me is how far into and up Manhattan some of the people go on that train.
Are you telling me that Mr. X is behind the fare increase? I thought he was on the island.
Why Hasn't the MTA upper management taken a paycut to accomidate the 2 billion defecit? Is the $2.25 another way of the state saying "New York Bend down and pass the KY jelly." And what about the state? How much of the MTA's income is going to the state? 18%? 20%? How much?
Apparently this is the result of bad money management, the State screwing over New York like usual.
Great idea. Get rid of some VPs, Executive VPS and give upper management(AT Jay Street and 130 Livingston) a 20% cut in pay.
give upper management(AT Jay Street and 130 Livingston) a 20% cut in pay.
So then who's going to run the TA? Graduates of the GENUINE COLLEGE DIPLOMA BY E-MAIL program?
The salaries, staffing levels and benefits of upper management is a big secret. These have to be much larger than that of the hourlies who are the people actually delivering the service to the public. Never does the media take this into account. Years ago you had one zone trainmaster per shift for an entire district (for example J/M/L lines). Today you have 4 superintendants per line. Downtown you have superintendants doing the kind of work dispatchers used to do before David Gunn changed the entire bureaucratic structure. I wonder how many superintendants are presently employed in the TA? Years ago you had TA bureaucrats at 370 Jay St. Today you also have them at 130 Livingston. Meanwhile you have less motormen as switching/yard jobs have been descimated, fewer road jobs as trips have been added as well as more cab time. Years ago switchmen relayed trains, today it is the road man in most cases. Then the dispatcher holds the train in the hole for longer than scheduled so the motorman loses his layover time and lunch time. Conductors spend more time on the road as well as fewer platform and OPTO jobs have required fewer total conductors. Bus operators pick up more people and deal with more traffic. S/A's sell MetroCards in which the transaction time per customer takes longer than selling a token. Then the hourlies have to get blasted by the media at contract time.
In fairness, the J/M shares one group of superintendants and TSS". Curiously, the A and C lines each have their own set of managers, despite the fact that the C line is actually the A line making local stops.
So has any union work force ever taken the opposite "line" and called for 'increased' supervision? Not bloody likely.
If TWU 100 wants "their" POV circulated, they need a well oiled PR campaign. I habe suggested before (and still believe) a regular ad campaign s necessary. Explicitly, labor must win the "hearts and minds" of riders/taxpayers. In turn, demanding fairer treatment, better safety regs is far more likely to elicit support than simple wage increases.
I am reminded of a TA employee who was 'apparenly' stranded in Jersey on 9/11, and was according to posts here initially charged with a 'personal day' as being AWOL. Very few New Yorkers IMO would have sided with management in this case.
In our paychecks, we have deductions taken out for C.O.P.E. (Committee Of Political Education). Maybe it's about time they did something.
Funny, we always referred to COPE as Committee of Political Expenditures, the folks who gave dues to the committee to re-elect. Now HERE'S something you might get a kick out of - not only did Paturkey overspend your wallet, he overspent HIS!
In tomorrow's papers will be the sad story of Paturkey's need to raise an IMMEDIATE $300,000 to cover excessive spending on the campaign and the letter he sent out begging loyal republicans to dig deep and send him some more gelt to pay off his debts. I'm sure TWU members will want to kick in to express their gratitude also. :)
State of the State address comes in the second week of January, then everybody gets to know the reality. Although the MTA is a Paturkey Farm enterprise and will say nothing, Buffalo's transit authority ISN'T a Paturkey subsidiary, so perhaps this article about Buffalo's Transit Authority might put things in perspective for NYC residents:
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20021224/1042337.asp
and a 'nice' profile of Selkirk's fave senator in the NYT
Wow ... not only is Senator Joe's electric fence broken, looks like the manure pump's broken too and backed up right into his gay-rage ... that article is the biggest pile of manure I've ever read. Poor Senator Joe - he's in the majority 2/3 of the triumvirat and impotent. Maybe the spammers can get that boy some of those blue pills so he can get it up for the job again. Sheesh. What a puff piece.
Pore old Senator Joe - had to walk 22 miles to the capitol in the driving snow, hoping to have electricity some day out on the ranch. Just him and his hunny and a little popgun out in the log cabin. Geez.
Why wouldn't I believe it? Unca Selkirk has been threatening us with this for quite awhile. Yesterday, the MTA deficit jumped another few hundred million (one of the "News at Noon" shows - don't remember which one), so it's no surprise that today the fare hike would also jump.
In the month of November and December the defecit was 300 million, 700 million, 600 million and now 2 billion dollars. Yet the MTA's operating expenses has remained 7.1 Billion dollars.
In the month of November and December the defecit was 300 million, 700 million, 600 million and now 2 billion dollars
Wonder if it's tied to that deficit clock that used to run in midtown Manhattan showing the national debt ....
--Mark
Who knows, maybe there is a link ;-). What a surprise 8-o! But in all seriousness, the MTA is trying to play mind games with us and the financial books should be released & then the truth shall prevail.
You ARE aware that the olde cloque is running again, and FASTER than ever? Man what a difference two years makes, can't wait to see what the NEXT two are like ... peace on earth, purity of essence, let's celebrate Christmas by kicking some butt. :\
Yes, I know the clock has restarted and caught up with itself ....
--Mark
I sure don't want credit for that - I merely live among the adminiswigs and docudroids that "implement" political sausage. The fare hike isn't the worst of what's coming - Bruno needs MORE monuments and the next word is that in June, "rent stabilization" will NOT be renewed, freeing all apartments in all boroughs to "what the traffic will bear" ... it is *THIS* that is expected to balance the budget through higher property assessments and tax payments. Come summer, folks will forget all about the fare as they struggle to find a rent they can pay. This one's Bruno's MAJOR putsch ...
2.25 huh? Maybe that'll shut up the whining twats here in Philly who bitch about the 2 buck fare down here. Then people like me can say "It's even more in NYC!"
By the way, what is the proper price of transit fares? For example, in DC, the fare is a measly $1.10 on WMATA buses, plus all of the cheapies on the suburban systems, and the distance based fares on Metrorail, how can anyone really determine what is an average price of transit fares? Is the fare determined by how much subsidy the system gets? Does NY state have a law (like PA) that mandated a certain amount of the transit system's cost be borne by the riders? Or like the DC area do the governments bear the greater cost of providing the services?
Here's an interesting thought. When NJT raised ther fares a piddling 10 cents back in April, was there an outcry like the one in NYC? No. Everybody more or less knew that the fare was going up as soon as Christie Twitman moseyed her ass out of the governor's mansion, and any blame was going to be put on her successor (McGreedy).
When SEPTA raised the fare in 2001, almost everyone knew that Mayor Street kowtowed to the SEPTA board when he tried to prevent the strike down here. Basically, they told him that they`ll settle with the TWU in exchange for a fare hike, and he cannot say shit about it. So our Mayor made his deal with the devil and shut his mouth up. That was a different approach than Rendell, who was willing to take a strike to keep the costs in line.
But you see, that is 10 CENTS and plus NJT buses has fare zones, and its RR commuters could handle 10 cents, who can't [well it adds up over time but it is not too much]. However back to NYC, the MTA wants a 50 cents raise at the least and I think its a bunch of shit to come up with that w/o providing evidence to justify a increase.
[Does NY state have a law (like PA) that mandated a certain amount of the transit system's cost be borne by the riders?]
No, but there's a long-standing UNWRITTEN rule stating that any public facility or service anywhere in the State must be paid for (to the extent possible) by NYC residents!!
Calm down. They'll propose a ridicoulous hike so that the real hike they want seems to be more "reasonable". We'll all be paying 2 bucks by summer, so get used to it.
Sounds fine to me -- as long all other fares and tolls in the MTA network are raised 50% as well.
What are the chances of that?
Yeah, what is the chance of that? Anyway, in order for me to justify a fare increase, the MTA must show its finincial records to see if they really are that deep in the red and service needs a dramatic improvement. Just coming up with the price of $2.25 as a new possible fare got me real heated and its ridiculous.
Well they won't. When TWU was in contract negotiations they requested the same thing and were turned down.
Again Bill I ask the question. Is there any authority in the city that can get the MTA to open their books and show us just how bad off they are? If that was so I would think they would be more than willing to prove their point. That they refuse to tells me volumes about just how chicken shit many of those people are. Then, again, we have a 34.8 billion deficit out here in California and many of my middle class neighbors are getting ready to take it in the shorts. Is there no end to the incompetence of the people who have an influence in our lives?
New York City's Comptroller is having his staff audit the MTA's books. The results should be out in a few months, but by that time the fare increase public hearings should be over and a decision should be made.
David
State's books are cooked. Freedom of Information Act IS no more (Patriot Act allows public records to be hidden by merely saying the words "national security" and clicking your heels twice - we actually have VILLAGES that have pulled that nonsense around here) and they don't HAVE to reveal the data at all, not even to the State Comptroller or the Legislature. What we have is the codification of Enron and Authority for politicos to play the same game. :(
Damn politicians! They come up with anything to prevent the public from knowing the truth to possible shady actions >:-o! Selkirk, tell us that there is a loophole or else we will have to go through secrecy forever. It's that strong that they don't have to reveal it to the state Comptroller or Legislature, now that's something.
The Legislature CAN subpoena the information - if they're not willing to release it, it CAN be viewed in "Executive session" ... if there's a WILL among the politicos to look, THEY can. But the state's fiscal mess is one of those pandora's boxes that's best left closed.
ONE week after New Years', Paturkey will do his State of the State Address. It's almost entirely rhetoric and puffery, but the governor is also required to "present his plan" in a general way. Your local PBS station will carry it live via NY Network from Smallbany, it's usually right at Noon and usually on a Wednesday.
One week later, the "Budget Message" and "budget school" for the media where each flowchart and power point presentation shows the shuffling of the deck of cards ... "find the queen, find the queen" whereupon the official State Budget is released. THEN we get to find out what the numbers are and who gets short-sheeted.
Next step, the state budget is due on April 1 - this hasn't happened in EIGHTEEN YEARS! June to September is when the ACTUAL budget gets done (months and months late) - THAT'S when we all find out. Given the brinksmanship and intransigence of Paturkey and Bruno vs. Silver, this year promises to be the LATEST budget ever ... stay tuned, watch the closing wallet - WHOOPS! Wallet gone.
But there's the sidewalk act for y'all ...
Who in the legislature? A majority? (snort) Or could a motivated ad hoc committee of Dems get a subpoena, or even ask NYC for its report when it's finished?
A committee (dems assembly majority, reps senate majority) CAN subpoena as a part of "budget hearings" ... these occur towards March though, it's much more difficult to do so without the budget criteria. MTA can keep it all NICE and quiet until then ...
>>"Next step, the state budget is due on April 1 - this hasn't happened in EIGHTEEN YEARS! June to September is when the ACTUAL budget gets done (months and months late) - THAT'S when we all find out. Given the brinksmanship and intransigence of Paturkey and Bruno vs. Silver, this year promises to be the LATEST budget ever ... stay tuned, watch the closing wallet - WHOOPS! Wallet gone."<<
The folly of the late budget shall continue for years and years to come, especially wth Paturkey and Bruno in control. Who knows, maybe it'll be submitted by Christmas of next year then we see how bad it is and it spoils our holiday 8-).
I don't doubt for a minute that there's a huge deficit. If a 50% hike is what's needed to cover it, I can live with a 50% hike, as long as it's a 50% hike across the board.
There is a deficit no doubt but "at" $1.1 billion, I really doubt that. I'd be willing to pay extra ONLY if there is sufficient reasoning to do so and I'm only going for a 25 cent increase nothing more [hopefully]. I say the hike is just to benefit greedy execs and management.
I would rather see a fare increase than service cuts, and if $2.00 is what is needed, then so be it (as long as they keep the MetroCard discounts - FunPass, buy 10, etc). The ultimate humiliation would be a fare increase AND service cuts, as some were mentioning may be necessary if they only went to $1.75.
I certainly can't see keeping the $1.50, and then having to endure service cuts.
I agree though, if the entire MTA has a deficit, the burden should not be left mostly to the subway/bus system. The Bridge Tolls, and commuter railroads should share equally.
It's probably just a scare tactic, so that when they only raise it to something like $2.00, everyone will let out a sigh of relief.
Here's my take on this(If anyone cares). Fire the damn cleaning crews! Im pretty sure most New Yorkers really dont care what the subway's look like, just how cheap they are, and when they come.
Im pretty sure most New Yorkers really dont care what the subway's look like, just how cheap they are, and when they come.
That sounds good. Let's make the subway look like the 70's. Ridership was REAL high back then considering the condition: plenty of muggers, homeless, rapists, and grafitti vandals. That'll keep people riding and sticking to the floor from the filth. That's the subway I would want to ride.
< /sarcasm >
>>"Im pretty sure most New Yorkers really dont care what the subway's look like, just how cheap they are, and when they come."<<
{{>>"That sounds good. Let's make the subway look like the 70's. Ridership was REAL high back then considering the condition: plenty of muggers, homeless, rapists, and grafitti vandals. That'll keep people riding and sticking to the floor from the filth. That's the subway I would want to ride.
< /sarcasm >"<<}}
Yeah, let it go back to the jungle it once was then lets see the subway population rise even more [it would increase not b/c of ridership but to attract more crime and vandals]. Lets go back to the days of decorated, hot cars with none or rarely working A/C and filthy platforms/walls and rampant turnstile jumping, that would be so cool ;-)........NOT!
[Let's make the subway look like the 70's. Ridership was REAL high back then considering the condition: plenty of muggers, homeless, rapists, and grafitti vandals.]
That was part of Giuliani's motivation when he merged the Transit Police and Housing Police Departments into NYPD: Put the cops back on the streets (where thay belong), and the put crime back in the subways and housing projects (where it belongs, and where Rudy won't see it).
and the put crime back in the subways and housing projects (where it belongs, and where Rudy won't see it).
????
Rudy put crime BACK into the subway? I believe subway crime dropped considerably during his 8 years.
Some of you people are really foolish. There was lots of crime in the subways in the 70's, because there was crime all over the city! I didn't say fire the transit cops, I said fire the cleaning crews! Dirty subways dont lead to more crime, fools. Oh yes, MERRY CHRISTAMAS
I ment Christmas...
"Dirty subways dont lead to more crime, fools."
There's a whole sociology theory, called "broken windows," that postulates that things like dirty subways DO lead to more crime, because they give the impression that nobody, including the police, cares what goes on. It was the theory behind William Bratton's crime-fighting strategies when he led the NYC Transit Police Department and he retained it when he took over the NYPD. Under his watch in both places, crime dropped precipitously, and the people who followed him as heads of the TPD (now the NYPD Transit Bureau) and the NYPD have had great success in keeping crime low (even as it's started to increase again nationwide) by operating according to the same theory.
Besides the crime angle, dirty subways lead to more track fires and to car equipment problems (debris in the door tracks, etc.).
David
Alright, so your not fools. I still don't agree with you totally, but you make a good point.
>>"Some of you people are really foolish....... I said fire the cleaning crews! Dirty subways dont lead to more crime, fools."<<
First off, we are not fools and I don't know who you are calling foolish so lets get that out of the way. Yes, there was crime all over the city during those times but lets get back to the subways. Now, dirty stations leaves a bad impression of our subway system and then leads to track fires which was so common; about 2000 a year or so; until 5-7 years ago when things were turning around. It does lead to more crime since it will look like no one cares about the system and it would lead back to the days when people were pushed in front of trains, robberies, murders, vandalism and a host of other bad things. Plus, there WERE layoffs of cleaners & throughout the system and budget cuts which caused this whole mess.
There was lots of crime in the subways in the 70's, because there was crime all over the city! I didn't say fire the transit cops, I said fire the cleaning crews! Dirty subways dont lead to more crime, fools
You are right about crime being all over in the 70's, but actually, there is a correlation between crime and a run-down dirty system/neighborhood. Crime is generally higher in a run-down neighborhoods. That is because there is a general consensus that nobody cares, and criminals prey on that. The same is true for the subway system.
I think most NYers DO care what the subway looks like, that's why ridership has increased so much in the last decade. Where would you rather wait for a train on a daily basis: Chambers St/Nassau, or Brooklyn Brige/Lexington Line. I think if given a choice, most would choose the latter, a clean attractive looking station, over the filthy, rundown Chambers Station. WOuld you want to go back to riding the subway the way it looked in the 70's when it was a hell-ride? Many people spend 45 minutes to an hour on their subway ride/wait each day, morning and evening - a total of almost 2 hours a day, 10 hours a week in the subway. Shouldn't that ride be a pleasant one instead of a hell-train ride?
Sorry Brooklyn, that is NOT the way to go. Filth does nothing but give the city and transit system a bad name.
This is no longer the real world, kids. This is NEW YORK STATE. Anything can happen here. Especially when you pay for your future with revenue bonds. How do we pay for revenue bonds? Well, REVENUE. How do you increase revenue? Through FARES. The invoice is in.
By the way, Selkirk says his sources are saying $2.50, and who better to scapegoat than the TWU for the LATEST BOOST. As Busta Rhymes says: "It ain't safe no more."
my comment is
""All Rail Transit Systems Should Be 50cents...!!""
TO HELL WITH ANY RAISING OF ANY BUS / RAIL FARES!!
( this is not amtrak folks !! )
or some oriental express or LUXURY COMMUTER sleeper cars !!
dont bother to attack me on this either ............
I agree with this post.... is this meekly possible?
yea and with a new redbird fleet ..............scrap da r-142s!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and that's all I have to say about that!!!!!!!
I can't believe I didn't add my thoughts on this yet...
So be it. It probably would've been wiser to increase the fare in small increments years earlier, but alas...
I was in Boston recently, and while on the Green Line in the Boylston station, I noticed a car on a side track that said something like "Emergency Car”. Does anyone know what that is?
Is the car used to relieve passenger overflow after large events? To respond to 911 type emergencies, etc?
Thanks in advance.
-Josh
It's for trolley-related emergencies. Rerailing, collisions, etc. Kind of a rolling tool-box.
Nice to see some old PCCs still earning their keep.
Isn't there also a museum piece stored there too ?
The emergency car is a retrofitted Boeing LRV, and is stored on a siding in the tunnel. The PCC and Type-5 to which you now refer are on a siding in the Boylston Station proper. The T owns the PCC, and Seashore owns the Type-5 (it's leased to the T for $1 per year).
I remember when the T used a Type-5 as a snow sweeper; stored it at Reservoir when not in use. I presume that's long gone! What's used now?
There's a Type-5 (I think) sweeper at Riverside. I've never seen it in action, but since it's sitting out in the open, it looks like it's still used.
NEAT photo! Perhaps someone can help - is that 2626, or some other dump motor on the left in the picture?
The "T" retains two old converted streetcars as snow plows, 5138 and 5164. They are both rebuilt from Type 3 semiconvertibles built by St. Louis in 1908.
Frank Hicks
Correct Frank just out of the shop with a brand new cab on it. One of the cabs had a controller fire which destroyed one end. Still has its original K controller and straight air brake. The car number was orignaly 3626 and was changed upon arrival of the Type 7's after an operator took 3626 the Dump Car from Reservior to Riverside during the rush hour. The inspector was refering too Type 7 3626 which was sitting next to the Dump Car at the time. Sunshine and Stevie
Interesting. Branford also has an ex-Boston DifCo dump
car, #3271, and it also had one cab completely destroyed by
a controller fire in Boston!
Yes Todd correct. Car number in question is LRV 3417 which was the last LRV on the Green Line,before it was modified to its present state, with trolley poles used for shifting cars to Watertown.
Type 5's were used for sand cars, salt cars but not snow fighting. The cars that you might be thinking of are Type 3 snow plow's which two still reside at Riverside with a pantograph and one over at Mattapan which still has poles. And also three were acquired by Seashore and are used regulary for multiple purposes. The MBTA uses lead sleds, a B-2 PCC truck with a plow, headlights and is used with current equipment.
The PCC work car on the Green Line is over at Mattapan as a wire car. It is a former Dallas Texas double ended car. Sunshine and Stevie
I am wanting to post a few CONRAIL photos that I have picked up from my gallery.
Is it possible to post a picture on here without the picture being on a website?
Nope ... you MUST have the picture on a remote site (and one that PERMITS remote downloads) and then link to it ... it's the only way. This little "inconvenience" keeps us ALL safe from malicious stuff getting posted here, a small price to pay.
Unless of course you are running your own server.
MS Win2K and WinXP both have IIS services that can run a website from your own computer. These are not loaded by default, but can be installed just by using your system disk, and asking that IIS be installed.
After that you need a static IP number, either a static dial-up (slow) or a static dsl IP will do. (Of course *this* opens your computer to hackers, but a good fire wall will take care of that. You do NOT need a domain name for this to work, your IP number is sufficient, such as http://123.234.122.108 etc.
Whenever I post a picture here, it *is* on my own computer. I do not deem my connection sufficient to run a big web site, but it is just fine for posting photos on SubTalk. Actually I knew a man who ran a big web forum on a 56K dial up line. But he did have a domain name that pointed to his ISP, and his ISP could re-rout his traffic to whatever dial up line he happend to be on. Complicated, but if I can do it and reasonably savvy computer geek can do it too.
Elias
IIS? Yipe! With all the security holes in that unvarnished ... ummm ... "organic matter" you might as well just cut to the chase and post your passwords and credit card numbers HERE. :)
Kids, do NOT try this at home without a major league firewall, serious antivirus and antitrojan software and make SURE you have an admin on duty 24/7 to recover. Now if it's on a machine that you don't MIND being hacked and don't mind reloading, then go for it.
I'll use the company server, thank ya. It's Linux. It's SAFE. =)
Hmm, yah, will worry you.
Selly, what do you recommend for a good Firewall. Will I have to pay? I hope not... :-(
I'll leave it up to Kevin to make a specific recommendation - he's a professional in that field, I'm not - but I can tell you that there aren't any freebies out there that are worth considering.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
but I can tell you that there aren't any freebies out there that are worth considering.
I am using "Tiny Firewall" it is a freebe, but the computer it is protecting is used only as a pocket server.... email and the occasional web photo. There is no sensitive information on it.
Elias
Certainly a safe use - the BIG worry is people putting up the likes of IIS on their "real" computer ... Nice thing about Linux ... you can blow the whole thing onto a bootable CDROM (read-only) ... let's SEE the script kiddies try to change anything there. And if they crash it, rebootsky and it's back just like it was. :)
I have looked at Linux twice, and have not decided to deploy it anywhere. I do not understand it well enough yet, and the rest of our network is Win2K with some XP workstations.
Maybe another distribution sometime when I have a little better machine to try it on...
Elias
Mandrake, and find the time. Even if setup ONLY as a firewall for Billy's baitboxes, it's a good thing to do. SUSE is good for setting up on one of those old scrap 133 386's you might have in a broom closet somewhere. Our firewall here is a 386 DX2-100 ... and it works GREAT feeding a DS-3. And the machine it runs on was SCRAP. :)
ZoneAlarm is the most frequently recommended (ahem) "firewall" out there and it's fairly OK - slows your system down like no tomorrow and many nasties breeze right past it, but it's the "best" ... the only REAL solution in all seriousness is a SEPARATE hardware box running Linux or BSD on it with IPTABLES and "stateful packet inspection" to ensure that only that data you WANT coming in and out does so. I'd gas off more about it if it were appropriate here, but it isn't, so I won't. But anything less than a SEPARATE box acting as a firewall is asking for trouble. Still, a toy like ZA is better than nothing at all.
Another thing:
1) How do you make the picture appear right on the posting page? Last time I posted, I think I had to make a link.
You use the (IMG SRC="") (substituting those < and > thingies for the rounded ones I showed ... inside the quotes goes the link to the pictures. There's some other HTML commands that can be used to format or resize the pictures but there's a bunch of them ... but the basic IMG SRC="" bit will suffice ...
Merry Christmas everyone!
I'd just like to know why the MTA wastes money on commercials when it's a monopoly. Is there any private subway system in operation around here that I don't know about? Why bother with these commercials. If you're in New York City and you don't know about the subway or bus system, then the only commercial you need is one advertising Bronx State.
Happy Holidays.
Tony
They may be a monopoly on Subways, but they aren't a monopoly on Getting Around. You can walk, run, ride your bike, take a bus (theirs or somebody else's), take a taxi or drive.
Since their fares are regulated, the only way they can increase revenue in between fare increases is to convince more people that they should switch to busses and subways.
CG
That, and of course, encouraging people to travel at times when they minght not have, such as an outing to the Bronx Zoo or Coney Island.
Elias
Those commercials are geared towards getting people out of their cars, so it's not really a waste of money.
Then, they should give reasons why it's more economical to use the train or bus than a car. I volunteer to direct the next commercial. :)
Maybe just trying to make the subways appeal to more of the riding
public as a way of generating an increase of fares paid...
But then again, WHO in NY doesn't know about our badazz subway system?
The radio, television and print advertisements help grease the media. Most organizations do not bite the hand that feeds it. This is the MTA's way to help insure a more symapthetic view by the print and broadcast press.
They're telling you that you should take mass transit rather than driving.
-Hank
William Bryk, who did a couple of articles on the NYW&B's history a few months back, has one in this week's New York Press on the 1918 Malbone Street wreck (which in terms of loss of life is still the second worst train disaster is U.S. rail history).
Most of what he has in the story isn't new to people on the board, though the last paragraph did include something I didn't know (and answered a question I'd wondered about for years as to what those initials in the magazine stood for).
Interesting... thanks for posting the link.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Art by Tony Millionaire". Too funny! Wishful thinking? :)
--Mark
The reference to "TRB" = "BRT" is known in literary circles. My brother was aware of that when he published political pieces in the '70s editions of The Third Rail as "TMB in the Poltical Underground." :)
An enjoyable piece, but there are a few fairly minor issues that I want to address before they pass into urban myth:
[...] the Brighton Beach line [...] was one of several lightly built steam railroads linking the city of Brooklyn with its seaside resorts.
The Brighton was not lightly built, it used chestnut ties, heavier rai, double track, and large Atlantic locomotives from day one.
Mysteriously, although the prosecution knew that Luciano had perjured himself by lying that he had applied the brakes, they never used the evidence.
Nothing at all mysterious. The prosecution was after the big fish.
In 1923, the BRT was reorganized as the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation–the BMT. It, too, went into receivership and then dissolved itself on Nov. 1, 1941, the 23rd anniversary of the wreck.
The BMT did not go into receivership, and my research says it continued as a corporate entity until 1943.
Right, Paul. The writer appeared to take some liberties in his article. I would suppose a topical paper like the NYP ran the piece on Malbone in light of the recent threat of the Transit Strike? Why else would they have brought up the subject?
>>>I would suppose a topical paper like the NYP ran the piece on Malbone in light of the recent threat of
the Transit Strike? Why else would they have brought up the subject? <<<
I suspect nothing ulterior...William Bryk, a lawyer by trade, writes a historical column twice a month for NYPress. For the most part, he knows his stuff and is an engaging writer. A few weeks ago, he identified the man who brought chewing gum to the USA.
General Ssanta Anna of Mexico...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks, Kevin.
William Bryk's Old New York columns are always interesting. He's got quite an encyclopedia knowledge of the city's history. I read the New York Press every week and am glad when there's a new column, they're my second favorite* part of the Press (the worst part are publisher Russ Smith's grotesquely self-indulgent "Mugger" columns).
* = Rehabilitating Mr. Wiggles is, of course, number one
Well, the new owners of NYP have cleared that one - Mugger's a goner.
I am partial to the Maakies strip probably since I've been following it since its infancy in the Waterfront Week. I know several folks with drinky crow tattoos (yes it happens).
Well, the new owners of NYP have cleared that one - Mugger's a goner.
Really? Wow, I didn't know that, but it's certainly terrific news. Must've just happened, as the most recent online version still has the column. I am so glad that Smith is gone, a more egotistical, self-indulgent, and boring schmuck I've rarely encountered. Reading about "Mrs. Mugger," and "Junior," and "Mugger II" (what, they don't have names?) was a definite Syrup-of-Ipecac experience.
I am partial to the Maakies strip probably since I've been following it since its infancy in the Waterfront Week. I know several folks with drinky crow tattoos (yes it happens).
Forgot about Maakies, that's a cool 'toon as well. Though I miss Shutterbug Bee.
Actually, I think Russ Smith (Mugger) is the owner, unless he's a front for some unnamed moneyman or investment group that has never been revealed. Unless that's the case, odds are he's going to be around for a while unless he decides to fire himself.
Is it just me, or does "jammed to near-standing-room-only" sound like an oxymoron?
Is it just me, or does "jammed to near-standing-room-only" sound like an oxymoron?
That doesn't sound like a phrase from 1918, and actually it makes no sense at all. If the car is "near-standing-room-only" then it means that the passenger load has NOT quite achieved "standing-room-only" which means everyone had a seat with a seat or two left over.
There were about 600 people on the 5-car train, according to most accounts, so it's a reasonable conclusion that the train was SRO. I believe there also were reports that people were flung to the floor as the out-of-control train careened into the tunnel just before the crash. While I suppose people could have been tossed out of seats, those reports do imply standees.
If the car is "near-standing-room-only" then it means that the passenger load has NOT quite achieved "standing-room-only" which means everyone had a seat with a seat or two left over.
Not so...
"Near SRO" could also mean that it is near "SQUIZHED WITH NO DAMN ROOM LEFT AT ALL!"
I think...
: )
Elias
>>> "Near SRO" could also mean that it is near "SQUIZHED WITH NO DAMN ROOM LEFT AT ALL!" <<<
Actually that is "beyond SRO."
Tom
I've heard of such a line, but know Jack Squat about it (and Mr. Squat is on vacation).
Does anybody know more?
Only what I've seen from Bob Andersen's LIRR site, and I'm guessing you've already seen that. But in case you haven't...
http://www.lirrhistory.com/nymbry.html
CG
I did read that, and this is where I heard of the Marine Railway, but I still know nothing about it.
The Marine Railway ran from Hotel Brighton to the Manhattan and Orient Hotels and there was an extension much further east. IIRC, the last portion to go was the part between Brighton and Manhattan Hotels, and it was a battery car operation at the end, steam before.
Also IIRC, much of the original eastern extension of the railway was lost to storms--its only in modern times (post-Moses) that the shoreline has been stabilized. At one time it ran a good mile east of the current end of Manhattan Beach--i.e., you might find remains of an underwater railway there to run them deadbirds on.
Also IIRC, much of the original eastern extension of the railway was lost to storms--its only in modern times (post-Moses) that the shoreline has been stabilized.
Heh. King Canute couldn't hold back the sea, but Robert Moses could.
Just a minute, I thought this was about the shoreline being stable after Moses parted it ... you know, THAT one :)
--Mark
Of course there's all sorts of speculation about the fare increase now, just like we had about the strike. Someone throws out the idea that the MTA wants a $2.25 fare and everyone gets up in arms. I haven't seen the $2.25 proposal yet, but it strikes me as no different than 8/8/8 or 0/0/0 were in the labor negotiation -- hard line starting points that will be quickly negotiated away.
Every time there's a discussion of a fare increase or contract negotiations, somebody posts something along the lines of:
"Why doesn't the MTA upper management take a paycut?"
Well, it depends on what you define "upper management" to be of course -- but, just as a goof lets assume that "upper management" consists of 1,000 managers each earning $150,000 per year. And lets suppose that each of these dedicated souls go one step beyond taking a pay cut and decide to work 2003 for free.
So you save 150,000 x 1,000 or $150 Million dollars -- which in the grand scheme of things isn't really very much.
You could ask those "upper managers" to take a 10% pay cut, but that would only save $15M -- which is pretty much nothing at all.
So you still have a requested fare increase -- probably not very different from the one already on the table.
All of which isn't to say that doing some serious pruning of the upper management ranks at the TA and MTA might not be a bad thing. (I think that's a triple negative, but hopefully the point comes across).
Meanwhile, the TA transports nearly 2 Billion passengers a year. Raise the fare by 50 cents, and you've chopped your deficit by $1 Billion. (yes, I realize one should expect a falloff in ridership after a 33% fare increase but this is SubTalk not InelasticDemandCurveTalk).
Comments? Rotten vegetables?
CG
(yes, I realize one should expect a falloff in ridership after a 33% fare increase but this is SubTalk not InelasticDemandCurveTalk).
Actually, unlikely. Since the curve is inelastic, the falloff would be much less than 33%. People need to get to work whether or not the fare is $1.50 or $3.50. And lets not kid ourselves, this is a government-imposed monopoly, so any notions about supply-and-demand determining the subway fare are ludicrous.
Since the curve is inelastic, the falloff would be much less than 33%.
No, inelastic in this case just means the falloff in ridership is more than compensated by the additional revenue from the price increase. Anyway, he didn't say the ridership will drop by 33%. He said the fare has been increased by 33%. And anyway elasticities are not constant, thus if you raise fare first by 50 cents (to $2.00) you will lose less customers than those lost by raising the fare another 50 cents (to $2.50).
...so any notions about supply-and-demand determining the subway fare are ludicrous.
Of course supply and demand determines subway fare and subway ridership. The real question is, given the way people behave (i.e. they would rather be stuck in traffic for 3 hours than pay $4.00 in subway fares) -- would raising the subway fare hurt the economy of New York as a whole? The two hours lost per day for those people who turn to driving translates to x amount of productivity loss...
But transferring value from the government to the public by subsidizing subway service may not be sustainable. And anyway the calculations I outlined above is always subject to debate as to how much. The real answer?
Toll the highways.
AEM7
I think the dropoff in demand will be much less than people think, at least on the subway. You have the round trip to work and you have other trips.
The number of people going round trip depends on the number of jobs in Manhattan, and unless the economy gets worse this is unlikely to change.
The unlimited ride cards and free transfers has reduced the MARGINAL cost of taking a bus to the train, or stopping off somewhere on your way home, to zero. After the 33 percent cost, the MARGINAL cost of riding the subway an extra time or transfering to a bus will still be ZERO for anyone who uses the subway regularly.
The subway will still be much cheaper than the car, so switching to auto for price reduction doesn't make sense. For middle class people who use mass transit rarely, but do use it, the price increase is insubstantial, since it is applied to a small number of trips.
The only loss in ridership I see is among poor people who don't use mass transit (ie. who do not work) who might have taken an extra trip with kids somewhere, in addition to the monthly trip to the welfare office, and now will not. The way to eliminate even this loss is to raise the fare to $2.25 during peak hours, but leave it unchanged off peak, increasing the cost of the unlimited ride cards based on the assumption of two peak hour trips per weekday.
The only loss in ridership I see is among poor people who don't use mass transit (ie. who do not work) who might have taken an extra trip with kids somewhere, in addition to the monthly trip to the welfare office, and now will not.
But Qtraindash7 will still railfan. Qtrain, you got a jobue yet?
AEM7
after the fall off they can cut service too. once the Manny B and CI are finished that gets rid of about 5%+ of TO jobs too.
[once the Manny B and CI are finished that gets rid of about 5%+ of TO jobs too.]
So major capital projects, once begun, must remain uncompleted JUST to preserve T/O jobs?
So major capital projects, once begun, must remain uncompleted JUST to preserve T/O jobs?
They do preserve planners' jobs. Look at the 2nd Ave Subway - 50+ years and counting. :-)
I did not say that and I think you know that.
The TA will save money in the near future even without service cuts. Think 3% raise and 5%+ fewer employees is not a big cost increase at least not in that one title.
"once the Manny B and CI are finished that gets rid of about 5%+ of TO jobs too."
It doesn't seem plausible that replacing the B, D, < Q >, and W by two services can save 5% of T/O jobs. More like 5% of T/O jobs ON THOSE LINES.
And if NYCT provides an Astoria-Whitehall St. local in 2004 to supplement the Astoria-Sea Beach service, (a logical idea, though not one they are under any compulsion to institute), they wouldn't save any jobs at all.
CI is Coney Island they had to add TONS (80+) of extra switching jobs for the duration of the renovation. Most of the jobs lost would be here.
OTOH when you reunify the D and circle Q you will get rid of almost every 4th job! Consider to run 6 r/t from CI to 205 it took 3 crews doing 2 trips each it now takes 4 crews doing 3 short trips each two on the Q and 2 on the D. There are even extra jobs that are on the schedule to round out the service where it does not quite work right do to putins and such.
It is more complex with the W, diamond Q and B train because of the added Astoria service.
Thanks. I hadn't realized how many added jobs result from those two items.
and another 10-12 for the GGS!
Even I don't believe it.
I was wondering what the history of this was.
Did they ever terminate the EXPRESSES at 177th instead of the locals? Did the express run from day one? I assume that the locals ending early is a product of a car shortage. Am I correct?
"I assume that the locals ending early is a product of a car shortage."
What do you mean by "early"?
It often makes sense to short turn half the trains (where you can) because you don't need all that rolling stock going to the far end of the line. This saves operational and capital costs. It happens in one form or another on many lines, especially those with a high enough tph rate that half the rate is still tolerable.
If you mean early in the evening (7:30 PM or so), this doesn't save cars since you need your peak rolling stock capacity at the height of rush hour, and it doesn't save on rolling stock to terminate a service immediately after rush hour.
Pelham Line Express service was inaugurated on Oct 14, 1946. Prior to that all trains operated local between E 177th St and Third Ave.
We have been talking about the roll sign readings on the Brooklyn PCC's lately. Now several trolley museums have preserved PCC's but I wonder how many of these come from Brooklyn? Branford of course has the Patriarch No 1001. (They also have BMTMAN,Thurston and Lou from Brooklyn, among others. Kingston has the not quite PCC No 1000 aka "The Queen Mary" which was built by the Clark Equiptment Company. (Bluebirds anyone?). Does anyone have information? Thanks.
Larry, RedbirdR33
AFAIK, those are the only Brooklyn PCC's to survive.
Just the Baltimore fleet, all but one went to scrap. 7407 is the only original Baltimore PCC to survive.
The second PCC we recently acquired is a ex-San Diego/El Paso car.
Car 503/1503 is a close relative to our 1936 St. Louis cars, all which went to the torch in the 1956 purge. It will be used to recreate BTC 7303. It's the first non-Baltimore car in the collection.
Those are the only two Brooklyn PCCs. 1000 wasn't The Queen Mary.
That was the lone Boston car that was diverted from SLCC Order 1600.
I think it was numbered 3001 in Boston. It was not preserved.
Evan J. from TMofNY mentioned the car bodies at Brooklyn Day Camp.
Those are LONG gone, although some parts from them may or may not
currently be installed on a Brooklyn PCC in a museum near you :)
"Kingston has the not quite PCC No 1000"
I would say that B&QT 1000 really is an official PCC; it uses B2 trucks and, as far as I know, TRC-patented control equipment. The body was an early prototypical design and was not duplicated, but the term "PCC" generally describes a car built using TRC-patented equipment (mostly trucks and control) - and that does apply to 1000. And, 1000 and 1001 are the only Brooklyn PCC's to survive, and 1000 is the only electric car built by Clark to survive.
Frank Hicks
No, this isn't a crazy proposal from some local nut, it ACTUALLY happened. Around the turn of the century, an early type of monorail linked the island with the station on the NH at City Island Road (remains exist).
But City Island Avenue (formerly Main Street) is still all cracked and broken!
And it was a true monorail, with a single standard profile rail on the ground.
"Around the turn of the century"
Would that be in the late 1990's?
Philip Hom
Golden Oldies - SMEE
The monorail experiment dates from 1910. The debut run derailed because the car tilted off the rail on a curve.
wayne
I understood that it ran for awhile, and was abandoned after a chicken-hearted motorman went around a curve too slowly, lousing up the angular acceleration necessary to keep the car on track.
Now wouldn't it just KICK ASS if it was still running today?
TA would probably be trying to kick the Monorail's so that it could run its bus over there. Bx-12?
There was an ERA Electric Railroads issue dedicated to the City Island Monorail some time ago, I think EJ Quinby was the author, perhaps 1960 or earlier. It ran from the New Haven Bartow Station to the City Island Bridge. It was later replaced by a battery car.
As I understand it, the experiment was underwritten by the IRT, to see if slender trains could allow two-direction express service in the center trackway of three-track elevateds.
I dont think they were serious though, since the line was shabbily built. It wasn't the only monorail in NYC, if you count the Boynton Bicycle RR, an experimental gyroscopic car at Coney Island, and the 1964 Worlds Fair AMF monorail. Does anyone know of any more (Freedomland perhaps?)
I recall reading in Trolley Time Treasury of an hybrid monorail
with an overhead support that was tried in the Pelham Bay area
but collapsed on the test run.
I think it's in the chapter "Weird And Wonderful Horseless Carriages"
which is near the front of the book (either chapter 2 or 3).
wayne
There is a monorail at the Bronx Zoo.
Conrad: The Bronx Zoo has had an operating monorail for about 25 years now. There are six ten car trains. If your interested let me know and I'll dig out the rest of the details.
Larry, RedbirdR33
HI LARRY: Oh yes, I'm definitely interested. I havent been to the Bronx Zoo in about 30 years (since my 1st grade field trip!). Since you mentioned it, I recall hearing something about a monorail there, but I had no idea it was that extensive.
If it operates year round, perhaps its worth a pit stop the next time I head home to Ridgewood so see the family (and for a Karl Ehmer fix, decent bratwurst are lacking here in Boston!).
THANX
CONRAD MISEK
Don't forget the Forrest Ave meat store across from the public school ( 96 ? )used to go there years ago....1960 ish.
Last I checked, it was still there, with the sequentially flashing red pigs above the window! I think the school is 93. I went to St Matthias myself, but I used to play roller hockey in 93's playground. HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Conrad: My Bronx Zoo information is in two locations and right now I only have immediate access to one. The monorail opened sometime in the late 1970's. It is about 1 1/2 to 2 miles long. It operates in a continous loop in an anti-clockwise direction. There is a three track yard adjacent to the IRT East 180 Street Yard at a somewhat lower level. Each yard track can hold two trains. The is a concrete shed covering one half of one of the yard tracks which serves as the shop.
There are six ten car trains numbered 1 to 6. Except for the drivers seat all seats face sideways into the exhibits; that is to the left of the direction of travel.
There is a single station called "Wild Asia Plaza" located on the west side of the Bronx River in what used to be the southern portion of the Buffalo Parking Lot. The closest entrance is the Boston Road Gate which is three blocks north of the IRT East Tremont Avenue Station on the White Plains Road Line.
Leaving from the station the monorail crosses the Bronx River and after this is located the only switches on the line. There is a two position switch between the main and the yard lead. Then is a three position switch between the yard lead and tracks 1,2 and 3. After passing through Wild Asia the line recrosses the Bronx River and is 40 feet high at the point. The highest on the line.
Electricity is 480v dc and the line is divided into 13 blocks with color signals. Indications are as follows;
Flashing Green- Clear for more than two blocks
Green- Clear for two blocks
Yellow- Clear for one block
Red- stop and stay
If a train advances a red signal power is cut off for three blocks and a bell rings in the shop.Control panels for the switches are located at the Wild Asia Station and in the shop.
The Wild Asia Monorail is also referred to as "The Bengali Express".
It is usually open daily from Good Friday until the end of October but check with the zoo to make sure.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
THANKS LARRY.
In a similar context, consider ALL the modes of transportation that have served New York over time - Cable Cars, pneumatic tubes (Beach's and the postal tubes), helicopters to the Pan Am building, and the Roosevelt Island aerial tramway/gondola. It would be very tough to think of a mode (within reason, for instance dogsleds would be a bit of a stretch) that hasn't served New York City at one time or another. Though there are some that are questionable:
Dirigibles. I believe the Empire State Building was built to allow dirigible docking before the comunications antenna was added. Does anyone know if this was capability was ever actually used? I think it was tried but abandoned because of winds. Perhaps dirigibles served Floyd Bennet Field or Idlewild, I dont know.
Funiculars. There were several in New Jersey and one in Yonkers, but I don't think NYC ever had one in the city limits.
Moving Sidewalks. I dont recall a moving sidewalk of any length at either of the airports, though perhaps there were some at the World's Fairs. The Robert Hall Village/Rentar Plaza development on Metropolitan Avenue in Middle Village as one of a sort, but it is on an incline (it serves the rooftop parking area).
Hovercrafts/Hydrofoils. I think the Atlantic Highlands to Lower Manhattan ferry might have tried one out in the 1970s, does anyone know for sure?
Ice Railways/Roads. I was once told that, during a particularly brutal winter in the mid-1800s, the East River froze solidly enough to allow small railroad cars, pulled by horses, to access Manhattan from Brooklyn. I find this doubtful, but perhaps there could be some elements of truth to the story.
Hope an interesting discussion follows....HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.
Moving Sidewalks.
Hasn't one been installed at Court Square?
Closest to dogsled was the horse drawn carriages and trolleys.
The Empire State was supposed to have had Dirigibles make stops. After the fire at Lindenhurst, NJ that idea was scrapped.
The Hovercrafts and Hydrofoils are still a while away. Closest we have are the different water ferrys going around the city now.
>>> The Empire State was supposed to have had Dirigibles make stops <<<
Dirigible service was never realistically considered. The dirigible mast was added to be sure the Empire State building was taller than the Chrysler building (and to give a sturdy handhold to any giant apes that might want to swat at circling aircraft).
Tom
A dirigible was looped to the mast once, I believe, and a crewman transferred, but the wind was too high to attach the mooring line. They were serious about wanting to get a ramp from the gondola to the little circular widows-walk below the mast.
Conrad: Although the Empire Sate Building was built with a mooring mast for dirigibles it would never have worked in practice. The nose of the dirigible would have attached to the mast but the actually acces to the passenger accomadations is a few hundred feet aft, at 1000 feet in the air. Also the high winds would have mitigted against any passengers embarking at that altitude.
Another point is that only one country actually had passenger airships. I mean of course Deutche Zepplelin-Rederei which succesfully operated the Graf Zepplein for several years and one successful year for the Hindenburg.
The British experimented with passenger carrying dirigibles to link the Empire but gave up after the loss of the R101 in 1930.
All American dirigibles were commisoned vessels of the US Navy and two; Akron (ZRS-4) and Macon (ZRS-5) were actually flying aircraft carriers.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The '64 NY Worlds Fair did indeed have moving sidewalks, in many pavilions. I recall GM's in particular.
Oh, and don't forget the simulated helicopter ride (really a continuous loop "train") around the panorama at what was the NYC pavilion at the World's Fair. Does that still survive in Flushing Meadow Park?
The Panorama is still there, last updated in 1994. The ride is gone, but one car is on static display in the World's Fair exhibit at the QMA.
The international air terminal (terminal 4) at JFK has moving walkways.
A "people mover" fits in the gray area between monorail and SkyTrain -- no driver, small vehicles, and a guideway that distinguishes it from standard double rail stock. Many airports and some office and amusement parks, as well as downtown Detroit and Miami, have them. No place has an actual Personal Rapid Transit system (individual vehicles, full merging, individual stations), but are there any people movers in NY?
I don't think there are any people movers in NYC, at least in Manhattan. Although there are some backwoods sections of Queens with no subway service that I've never visited so I can't be too sure about the city as a whole.
---Brian
I think you'd know if there were peoplemovers in Queens.
Besides, why would "backwoods" places have peoplemovers?
Morgantown, WV, home of the University of West Virginia has a PRT system.
It's a GRT (group rapid transit) like Skytrain in Vancouver, London's Docklands or our own benighted Airtrain. Even allowing for it's having been a pioneer, Morgantown is a very heavy rubber-tire buslike guideway network with heavy switches and shared rides, and so expensive and slow that it hardly justifies not having had drivers.
Taxi2000 (their website may or may not be up) proposed in Cincinnati and (in a previous marriage with Raytheon) Chicago. It has the only switching capable of doing true PRT.
"Monorail" is such a nebuolous term. There have been very few "real" monorails, in the sense of a single rail on the ground and some sort of balancing mechanism. Most so-called monorails are really monobeams, and there is no standardization.
Very much so. If you are interested in transportation curiosities (as I am), you may like monorails.org, which has a pretty good overview of various "monorail" design principles, such as straddle-beam, suspended, etc. Also many links to kool stuff....
monorails.org
Been there. Very interesting and well done site. I'm also interested in alternative technologies but one problem most of them share is an inability to truly identify a compelling reason for their existence. After that we get on to their failures on the merits.
No Message. The title says it all.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Sounds like a good idea. Maybe we should all take a few days from this site and enjoy Christmas.
This is my L-A-S-T day for a week.
Will be back Jan. 6th all full of piss & vinegar ready to TALK somemore !
Take it easy on the P&V, drink in moderation, bro. :)
Yesterday I had the pleasure of LOOKING at the snow. Our guests left a little early because of it :-(
Will be in Binghamton, a big RxR town, but there to see my son & his very pregent wife. Then it's on to Middletown (near by that town) which is a P&W town now. Always look over the bridge to see what's in the RxR yard as I cross the CT river.
The BMTman has been talking it up about some "Field Trips" including a couple of out-of-town friends and a guy who normally works the week-ends for the TA. I hope to tag along on one of these.
Kewlness! Here's hoping they get dug out by the time you get there. The boneheads at CSX shipped their rotoblowers down sooth, so the entire railroad has laid down and nobody KNOWS when and if they're going to come through here and clear out the Chicago Line. The winds were SO bad last night, a number of cars in the yahd flipped. We took a pair of trees on the roof but so far, it's been SO bad out there, the trees are gonna sit there for another night as far as I'm concerned.
NOW would be a great time to come visit ... by HELICOPTER. :)
"The boneheads at CSX shipped their rotoblowers down sooth, so the entire railroad has laid down and nobody KNOWS when and if they're going to come through here and clear out the Chicago Line."
Maybe they sent the roto blowers to Florida for some warm sunshine and a Christmas vacation ?
Bill "Newkirk"
My bet is they sent them down to ventilate some of those cruise ships. But yeah, ain't nothing moving on the CSX rails - CPRail of course has all of their lines (and Amtrak) nice and clear, but then again what we got up here is a yawner in Canada. For the morons in Jacksonville, it's a "what do we do now?" kinda day. :)
TIS THE SEASON TO RIDE TROLLEYS.......FA LA LA LA LA...LA LA LA LA !!
Merry Christmas everybody !...Santa Claus rides the Brighton Express !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, Santa rides the Culver line ... Unca Dougie sent us a photo Kissmoose card containing the PROFF! As a Brighton boy myself, I can only say I'm a bit disappointed. It's almost like Prancer and Dancer riding the Sea Beach ... oh wait, nevermind. :)
Merry Merry, Happy Happy also - finally finished all the email and trojan updates, I'm going to fire up BVE and run an F train to 179th while drinking heavily. Boowahahahaha ... and once I'm #@%^&$!@, I'll do a couple of runs on the Franklin shuttle for Unca Dougie. Heh.
Bellowing "MMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" all the way, I'm sure.:)
Merry Christmas, everyone.
I'm impressed. Managed to take the curve into Prospect at 68 MPH. The *computer* crashed! I *love* it!
I even made it 2-1/2 minutes ahead of schedule. :)
I'd rather have a computer crash than a train.
One of the things that engineers and "train operators" LOVE about BVE is that you can take out your frustrations by whacking the rubber wall past a terminal, blow past stops, run homeballs like there's no tomorrow, cackling all the way. Try doing THAT on a real railroad! :)
I find BVE VERY therapeutic when I'm in "one of those moods" ... the main reason I prefer it to MSTS though is the car-rocking, ballistics, sound and the behavioral physics of the cars based on how you operate. VERY much more real than the wooden MSTS behavior. Though it may lack that "out of train experience" with the run-bys, folks who spent their life in a cab aren't interested in watching their train blow by from the sidelines. Hitting the mark becomes the adventure. I note the R68A trainset has some REAL quirks to it with the braking and that delights me to no end when everything's going fine and suddenly no brakes at the 10 car marker. Then again, everyone here KNOWS I'm not well. :)
With the R-142s and R-143s, now you can have both :)
--Mark
Were you running BU gate cars?
wayne
Nope, R143. I do it in style. No Arnines or BU's yet for BVE but when time permits, I will try. By the way, REAL BU Gate Car handle time next year at Branford, Judge BMTman presiding. And with Riverside curve up there, I have EVERY intent of causing the BMTman to show a visible skid mark. :)
On Saturday afternoon, 7 December, there were at least eight Santas on a PATH train I was on, but I can't remember where they were riding. Since that was the case, they couldn't have been on the Brighton or the Culver.
It might have been leaving Hoboken, where I saw Father Knickerbocker (in costume) back in the mid-1950s walking to catch a Lackawanna train. (He was the Knickerbocker Breweries' advertising and TV star.)
I'll agree with the Merry Christmas and Good Night to All.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Merry Christmas to you too Larry and to all the Subtalkers. Enjoy your holiday everyone!
¡Feliz Navidad!
It's been a tough two weeks. Christmas midweek in TA makes it worse.
So, let off early Christmas eve, replaced a blown tire, drove off to mom in New Jersey and took her to midnight mass. Drove back to the 239th yard before the heavy snows and rested from 2:30 till my 7 AM shift. I did not want to spend Christmas Day alone...I was with my crew. One of the crew brought Russian cakes...CTAs found them before us. What we had Christmas Day was our friendship...the little LCD screen TV I carry had the Christmas Mass from the National Cathedral in Washington, D of C. Sometimes, the simplest things mean the most.
All the Best to All. CI Peter
I once posed this question to a chat, and nobody answered it.
If you were in that chat, then DO NOT answer.
What was the first elevated line in New York City to be abandoned?
If you have a guess, or an answer, please respond.
Answer will be posted tomorrow or when I feel like it, whichever comes first.
6th and 9th Avenue Els were abondoned about 1938.
2nd Avenue El was about 1942.
3rd Avenue El about 1955.
Unless your answer is the Gilbert El, 6th Avenue north of 53 Street, 34 Street or 42 connections on 2nd and 3rd Aves, I don't know.
How about Park Avenue Elevated in Brooklyn, ca. 1895?
David
According to Alan Paul Kahn's Track Book (1974), the date of closing was 1894.
...hence the "circa" in my post :-)
Thanks for narrowing it down for us.
David
That, of course, was before Brooklyn was part of New York City, as, I am sure, would Pigs be the first to point out.
The question was:
What was the first elevated line in New York City to be abandoned?
In 1895 Brooklyn wasn't part of NYC yet.
Just installed Netscape 7.01 (from 6.0), everytime I try to read or go back to a message, on Subtalk, I get a select user box with my handle appearing 4 times. Whether I click on cancel, OK, or just close it will reappear before I can view the next message. My handle, password, e-mail address appears (as it always did) automaticaly in the "post a New Response" box.
Solution:
Use IE.
BZZZT! Wrong answer. See the correct one in Selkirk's post here. Or for the other correct answer: switch back to Netscape 6.2. It works.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IE has so many holes. that swiss cheese has fewer holes. Hardly a week goes by without some patch to a security breach in IE and even cheesier Outlook Express. The real solution.. revert to Netscape 4.8.
You'll have DOZENS of those in no time. It's one of MANY nasty insects in the open-sores Mozilla code that Netscape's based on.
SOLUTION (for real) ... click on EDIT up above, select Preferences. From here it gets a bit natty since 7's on one of my other machines. Look for "remember passwords" and "autocomplete forms" ... make sure that they're NOT checked ... remove the checkmark when you find them. Finding them will require going through all of the items - I don't remember WHERE these two items are off the top of my head but they're IN there somewhere.
Turn those off and the madness will stop. :)
I use NS 7 too, and while I have finally gotton it tweaked for Subtalk, telling it to NOT remember passwords requires my having to enter it to use mail/news, so as to to screw up the subject line.
It does not always shut down when I "X" out the two windows. When I hit Start to shut off the computer, it stays Nescp is not respoding, and have to do ctrl/alt/delete to End Task. The computer also had a problem bringing up Outlook Express and Netscape 7 simultaneously when the internet dial-up software was fired up. Invariably, one of the other would not start, and would have to reboot.
Netscape is not really Netscape anymore. Its techies were fired by AOL, and AOL's geaks is responsible for it now,and it is pure junk, if not fraud. IE has too many security breaches to be worthy of my usage. Ultimately, I will change to Opera browser.
Actually what you're struggling with is the open-source MOZILLA project, which is SUN's geniuses and a bunch of hobbyists. I was involved personally with the Mozilla project a long time ago until the AOL Timeweenies got involved. And yes, they've created quite a mess. That's why I still use 4.73 and if a site doesn't appear, to hell with it, I'll go somewhere else or open the source and paste in where I want to go from there.
Opera's not too shabby, but it's got issues too. :(
Grand Central Spur of the 3rd Avenue El, 12/6/1923.
-Stef
For the Manhattan Els at least....
-Stef
CORRECT answer.
None of the Brooklyn answers are correct since at the time those els were abandoned, Brooklyn was not part of New York City as others have correctly pointed out (those of you who did get to share partial credit).
BINGO! Do I win a prize?
LOL!
-Stef
"Metrocards Make Great Stocking Stuffers"
"Metrocards Make Great Stocking Stuffers"
I should show you a deck of (merto)cards I purchased at the Transit gift shop.
The answer depends on your definition of "abandoned." The portion of the Lexington Avenue L in Brooklyn (old Main Line) which ran over Park Avenue from its junctions with the 5th Avenue L to the Myrtle L at Grand ceased in 1891. It was never electrified.
If you push "abandoned" to mean "completely discontinued and not reopened in the same form" I would nominate the original 9th Avenue cable el. It closed in 1870 because of the problem with the cable mechanism and only reopened April 20, 1871 with cars hauled by a steam dummy.
If you're thinking the Sea View Railway (Coney Island Elevated) and you accept it as an "elevated," this survived through the 1899 season, so it wouldn't qualify anyway.
You have something else in mind?
Since the question was:
"What was the first elevated line in New York City to be abandoned?"
I'd have to agree with the original 9th Ave El. The Gilbert El.
Everything else is Brooklyn. At the time not part of NYC.
I wasn't thinking of the original form of the Ninth Avenue El. Was the structure reused for the steam service or was it completely demolished and replaced?
I think it was demolished and replaced.
It was not completely demolished at that point, but the company did fail. It was discontinued and auctioned to its bondholders for (IIRC) $960. At that time it extended from the Battery to 30th Street. What I'm focusing on is the complete cessation of service for an extended period of time. The cable never reopened.
The new owners "repaired" the structure which probably included straightening the structure and removing the cable mechanism. When it reopened the original cable cars were pulled by a steam dummy.
Citing the "first" or "last" of something usually requies definitions. I completely missed the point about "New York City," therefore you leave the Lex-Park L. So then we might say the Sea View in Coney Island, which had two seasons in the City of New York. But that was a kinda-sorta elevated. The trestle portion was mainly to carry it over Ocean Parkway. If you accept that that made it an "el", then what was the first NYC subway? The tunnel under Park Avenue south of Grand Central? Not an electric subway? That also leaves out Beach, which was like a large version of those things which brings your deposit to a drive-in teller. How about the "mirror" of the Coney el, the Ocean Parkway tunnel of the Church Ave. Line? 1895, and electric, too! :)
Many el structures were completely replaced , but if it was done under traffic, or with short discontinuance (a long weekend, say) I wouldn't count those as abandonment.
So first el abandoned in NYC? If we mean corporate NYC, I guess the 42nd Street-GC branch of the 3rd, but that was just a branch. Whole line? 6th Avenue, 1938.
Maybe I didn't think of everything. I'll be interested to see what answer your group came up with.
Brooklyn's Main Line El was abandoned in two stages. The outer part, from Hudson Ave to Grand Ave was abandoned in 1891, before Brooklyn was not part of New York City. The inner portion from Hudson Ave & Myrtle Aves to Fulton Ferry was abandoned in 1904.
Frankly, I wasn't aware that any elevated lines in New York City had been abandoned. What a shame. Look at the example of Chicago. It has "L"'s running through the central business district, to the rapturous delight of all.
I didn't think it was possible not to know that.
I knew of the Third Avenue El when I was 7. And that was in 1990.
I first learned that there were once els in Manhattan when I was about 13 or 14 (around 1985 or so). It's when I first got a bit interested in the subway system, and I found a book at the Library, "The New York Elevated". I was amazed that some of Manhattan's Avenues had els at one time. It was a pretty good book, I wish they would reprint it.
I wouldn't be surprised if very few people in New York know that Manhattan had els, short of older people of course who expreienced them. But for anyone born after the 1960's or so, I'm sure it isn't common knowledge - aside from us railfans or historians etc.
I understand that it isn't common knowledge amongst the general populace, but I always thought that people here all know about the now gone els, I mean we talk about them often enough.
I need to get my NYCTA BVE routes (particularly E and Q) lines back, but for some idiotic reason they are nowhere to be found on the web.
Im kicking myself for not backing up the files when I deleted them, figuring they'd "always be there" on the web. Go figure!
http://www.crotrainz.com/ seems to be down right now. I was trying to download these routes earlier. I gave up and instead downloaded a London subway route. It was neat.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Which London one? I did Piccadilly last night (over 3 hours but worth it!!!). I also have done Circle, Northern, East London, Waterloo & City and Bakerloo. DLR is coming out soon which I can't wait for. Also, for the "modified" NYC routes coming out, yours truly is conductor.
"LUL Nothern NB"
What are these "modified" NYC routes that you speak of?
www.bve-routes.com, you can find them there.
NOBODY goes without on Kissmoose ... here ya go, guys ...
http://www.bve-routes.com/
Moo! :)
Thanks!! Merry Christmas!
John, you spelled it wrong, it's KISSMOOSE.
Right, with the note that up where you and Selkirk live you only kiss the moose with one of two things: the front end of your vehicle or the business portion of a 12-gauge rifled slug :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
YOu have to live upstate to get it I s'pose ... but a Merry Crispness to everyone else. :)
I hope this helps
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nycta.html
Yep, another good place. :)
How do I get the main program. I hear so much good thing about it and want to try it.
Robert
You'll LOVE it ... it's *SO* forgiving. Blow all the homies you want and no penalty. BIE on your own, BIG penalty. It's a kick for anyone who's ever run a real train. Heh.
Everything you'd want to know is here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Tells you where to get it, how to install it, how to use it, and the rest of us here can point you at other goodies once you've got it going. I've made some CDROMs for a few friends of everything I'd collected, so that's an option too ... but if you hit the site above, you can have it running by morning. :)
I can't get it to work. I installed it and all I get when I try to run it is a bell sound and that it. The program dose not even run. Please Help if you can. Maybe If I send you some blanks CDROMs you can make me A copy of it. EMail me if the sound good.
Robert
Send me an email and I'll get back to you - address up above is good. For some reason, a few have had problems with it going on XPee, but it should be good to go otherwise. Given what you describe, you got everything OK and would suffer the same odd behavior if I blew a CD as well. I take it nothing appeared on screen?
Robert If your running Windows XP you need to do one more step so it will work. Right click the shortcut->properties->Compatibility Tab. Go and check compatibility mode for Windows 2000. Apply and Close and it should work.Btw Happy Holidays
Cheers,
Adam
Thank that did the trick. Now all I have to do is download some routs.
Robert
This'll get you started ... I assume that you already got Uchibo, got your strings.ini squared away and grabbed the four other files that were recommended on the helper site? (those contain some default textures and objects that are needed to avoid errors in the route files for some) ... if you've got the other stuff, you can get started with some neat routes here:
http://www.bve-routes.com/
I highly reccomend the 7, E (inbound), and WMATA Red Line. The Q express rates. A new L is coming out with semi-automated announcements (we have the woman's voice and the stand clear but I have to fill in with the station name). All of them (except the L which is not available yet) are on the website Selkirk gave.
I have the L route and aside from the el portion, it's pretty nice. Even the el portions aren't too bad. Needs salt though. :)
This is susposed to be spruced up. You even get me trying to make the automated announcements all lined up (you will see what I mean when you run it). I never ran Robert's L although I hear this is based off his template.
The L line REALLY needs smooth curve work out on the elevated portion, but Robert DID rough it out pretty nicely in all sincerity. Though it's missing things, it DOES work right as he had left it, and it IS complete as far as the trackage and running goes. If anyone wants the NYCTA-L.RW file (you're on your own for the objects, I just used the standard NYCT folder contents) be happy to email it out tomorrow to anyone who wants it. I did include it on the CD that I sent to a few friends from Branford ... it's VERY rough but sufficiently complete that it could be used.
Looking forward to seeing the finished work. Robert did pretty well on most of them, though the occasional tunnel wall crossing the track in front of you and having to smash through it to get to the station was amusing. The R train line in particular suffered from many an impinging tunnel wall on the railroad, and a number of the lines had glaring errors in the trackage. Coming in on the E train side of 7th Avenue on the northbound D was an amusing feat and the lack of elevation changes was also a bit strange. Perhaps the most obvious errors in his files were the EXCEPTIONALLY long runs between stops and the timetable that was way off. Purists and those of us who actually RAN some of those lines notice that, but most people wouldn't. Ernie's Flushing line route and Ed Yee's Franklin shuttle though are absolute works of ART ... and it is by those benchmarks of quality that I reluctantly diss the others.
STILL ... DAMNED grateful to have so many subway lines for BVE and even more grateful that they WORK. :)
Those very generic runs like the D were NOT Robert's. The D timetable was a bit outrageous, I didn't mind the station lengths too much but I am sure you noticed 59th and 72nd were the same distance apart as 81st and 86th. The lack of grades and speed restrictions is a little strange but those routes are being worked on.
I'm gonna pass up on your offer for the L, I will wait until it is sent to me for the addition of the announcements.
Oh, it wasn't for posting - there's a number of friends who are partial to the Canarsie line after they've tired of the Franklin shuttle. :)
I thought the D was one of Robert's, apologies if wrong - so many of those all seemed made of the same cloth and with the same tunnel wall and other issues, just assumed that was another. Yeah, the D also required all local stops along CPW, dumping geese on the third rail. Wrong tracks not only at 7th, but the 135-135 interlocking was ALL wrong too. Still, it was my home line so I still ran it.
It is susposed to be fixed, I don't know how much progress they are making on it. I don't think I've been asked to do announcements for that, but I am doing the G as well now. Robert's route is being extended to 71st Avenue.
Cool! One of the things that is sadly needed for most of those subway routes though is something other than a flat black wall (the shell style with some vague lighting to it would be nice and it's just ONE B3D object that could be used for all) and replacement of some of the solid walls with steel pillars like the real deal - then again one of the nice things about the existing NYCTA routes is that they're SO basic and unadorned, they run nifty on old, tired machines. The demo of the BAHN is MUCH nicer though with so many objects in it, it does run pokey on older machines.
BVE is actually capable of far more graphical detail than MSTS, though very few authors outside of the Brits and the Germans and Japanese have really taken much advantage of it all. Don't mind my whining though, I'm still quite happy with everything that's been done.
Thanks! Ill check that out too!
OK I have found many routes, but there was a really good E train route that was from Jamaica CTR to WTC, and had a touching memorial at the end. Anybody know where I can find that?
On the same site with these "modified" BVE routes.
Is there a way to accelerate the graphic/playing speed on
BVE in a Win95 platform?? Even with my controls at full
throttle (and brake released fully), I still can only move
at a snail's pace (asif frame-by-frame)..
Unfortunately the limiting factor is Microsoft's MISERABLE "DirectX" rendering. It's not all that great on a 266 MHz box either, from what you describe it sounds like yours is slower than THAT.
What you CAN try is click on the little rectangle thing in the lower left corner - that'll pop up a menu. There's an item there called "Graphics" settings ... click that and move the slide bar for distance all the way over to the left. That'll reduce the distance of the display (which will lower the amount of rendering needed) but you'll still have fits and starts. While BVE is recommended for anything from 233 and up, the more complex the scenery, the more computing power you need. That minimum SHOULD be 450 MHz, and for some of the British routes, 750 should be a requirement. The simpler the scenery though, the more likely it is that it'll work.
But that trick with the graphics distance setting is about all you can do other than upgrading your motherboard ...
You should keep your video card drivers updated and have the latest version of DirectX installed. I get 21 FPS with the slider at max on the E Line initially.
Yeah, mine's a 266 and is more of a "business machine" than a gaming machine so I just put up with it. I don't mind. Now my LAPTOP is a pathetic old IBM 760XL with a 133 in it. I get one frame every five seconds or so. Not good. :)
I suggested to a few T/O's here that they give your R68A train some exercise. I LOVE that one - since I run with a joystick, if I pull too hard and dump it, it takes FOREVER to recharge. Now if we could ONLY get Mackoy to give us trippers for passing a red. Heh.
Go to these following websites:
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nycta.html
http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/
http://www.crotrainz.com/
http://www.crotrainz.com/cgi-bin/forum/board.pl
Go to these following websites:
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nycta.html
http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/
http://www.crotrainz.com/
http://www.crotrainz.com/cgi-bin/forum/board.pl
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alstoer1/bve.htm
Still cant get the 7 line, R32,R36, and R46 trains. Seems there is a terible lack of outlets to get these files.
Im gonna do my part and start having them on my Rails and Trains yahoo club, as everyone else seems to be asleep at the controls. :-(
You can get the R44/46 from here:
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/routes.html
Scroll down to Grand Street Shuttle.
I will email you the R36 and R32.
When did this end?
I don't know that there was ever a passenger terminal at Chambers Street. To my knowledge, there was a terminal not far north of the Battery. In 1869 this was cut back to a big terminal at St. John's Park--not the location of the industrial structure, but the former urban park bounded by Hudson, Beach and Varick, where the Holland tunnel car carousel is now.
Passnger service there would have had tohave ended no later than 1927, when it was turned over to cars.
I had read an article in the paper over the weekend about the old
freight line that ran down to the Village, and thought with all the talk of having a commuter rail link to downtown, why not use the
existing elevated structure? Use some light rail vehicles instead
of full trains. It appears to run right into the LIRR yard and extend it into Penn,
Any comments and thoughts?
your plan was not originated either within MTA or City Hall; thus it is ineligible to be considered by the pols who control the money. That said it would be a fine extension for the L direct to the Penn/Javits area
only i'm bored enuf to post on subtalk at midnitue on christmas, hehe :)
at least im not stuck at werke :)
AEM7
And a very merryue christmasue to you too - hic!
break out the egg nog, brah~!
Lay off the egg nog...
-Hank
We have about an inch of snow here in Gettysburg PA, and they say that is what it takes for a White Christmas. We are supposed to have more before this storm is over.
I hope you all will have a wonderful holiday!
It was late getting to NYC, but it's now official. It's a white Christmas, my first in 30 years on this planet. Finally!
We had 7 inches of snow before it quit down here.
An absolutely beautiful scene for Christmas.
We probably have about an inch here in Mongomery County PA
It was a wild day of weather, snow last night, then rain on and off
earlier today, then snow rain mix, then snow, then rain, etc...
It seems to have cleared up now, its 6pm.
And the first plow just went by, and mind you I live on a major state
road. What do we have stock piles of salt & sand for when they dont use it?
I'm wondering if it's all gunna freeze now?
11.5 inches in Voorheesville, NY ... major band for about another 13 about an hour away ... anybody WANT some? :)
You can keep it, Kevin... we're got just over an inch of wet sticky stuff here in Eatontown, NJ and it's still falling... wife's down home in NC and VERY thankful it's only raining there. We had enough rain here this afternoon though to close some roads with flooding... went over to a friend's house in Long Branch for an early dinner and to make some repairs on his HO layout for him (one of his double-slip switches had gotten out of adjustment again... why we had to go design two of those into his triple-track helix I'll never know... wish he had the space for a four-track one... but since it was 50% my not-so-bright idea I get stuck with the repair job... at least he and his wife are good company and are tolerant of my language when I get to working on that #&@* thing) and had to detour twice on my way back due to flooded roads.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're pushing 16 inches now, SURE you don't want any? We'll be happy to ship FedEx if we can get the frontloader to drag one of their trucks up here. :)
I'll pass, thanks... it stopped by about 1945h, about 1 1/2 inches is all we got... that's more than enough to last me a lifetime!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NO sense of adventure, son ... we're at 19.75 now, next town over has 26 and they just adjusted upwards from the previous 20 to 30 inches to 25 to 35. Meanwhile, folks in the city are flipping out at what is it? 4 inches or so? :)
Reminds me of when I went on vacation in Florida in 1996. Someone I was talking working there couldn't understand how we New Yorkers could live and work in 40 degree weather up here.
Plus or minus? Yeah, but let's face it ... how often do those of us up here in New York get to go flying trailer airlines to meet the Wizard of Oz? Yahoo. :)
I probably have around six inches of the white stuff right here in Hastings-on-Hudson. It was blizzard conditions for a while in the New York metro area. Thanks for the offer, but I don't need any more white stuff.
#3 West End Jeff
Dang! FREE SHIPPING if you order now. Ain't heard any trains here since early this afternoon - them CSX boys didn't invest in any snowblower trains, so they be scrood. :)
Maybe you should ship the snow to Buffalo. They always want snow.
#3 West End Jeff
Wish I could ... nothing's moving up here, we got 32 inches and trees landed on the house. Still trying to get out there and cut 'em up but the snow's too high with the hurricane force winds, drifts and all. Man oh man, this one was a corker, even by upstate standards. :\
You certainly have your hands full up there. I don't have anything to do down here anymore. Last night I finished shoveling the driveway and now I have nothing else to do.
#3 West End Jeff
Heh. Well, we're still stuck here - the PAYLOADER broke and is getting a new axle. When we get snows like this, that's the only way to clear our road, at a cost of $350 a throw. OWWWW! But at least after 38 hours of operation, we finally shut down the Allis Chalmers ("Little Allis") when Niagara Mohawk was once again able to crank a watt. :)
I remember about two years ago a plow truck in your location wound up buried in the snow and if I remember you couldn't extricate it.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, they had to bring in a BUS tow truck to drag it out. Happened again yesterday. $350 later, we JUST got dug out about an hour ago. One of these years, will have to buy my own. Here's what it took to do it though:
That looks like a thoroughly used PAYLOADER. I could certainly see that you'd need a BIG tow truck to pull it out with.
#3 West End Jeff
Nah, it ain't thoroughly used until it's a lawn decoration up on cinder blocks. THEN it's thoroughly used. :)
A PAYLOADER makes a great lawn decoration that can be yseful when it is needed.
#3 West End Jeff
While folks down in the city throwing rocks at the SUV's, those of us who live up here in the Great White North use THOSE as our vehicles of choice. Much like a powerful locomotive, nothing says testosterone on the highways and biways like a huge diesel-powered payloader that says, "I'm cutting in here ... OK?" SUV's don't stand a chance. We take our road rage SERIOUSLY up here. :)
They're ALMOST big enough to pick a fight with a locomotive, but they'd still lose.
Unlike the people in the city and its suburbs, you probably KNOW how to drive the SUVs. Most suburbanites don;t even know HOW to drive them. They drive them halfway over the double yellow line for god's sakes. I'm sure up there where you live in the great White North, you hardly see people drive over the double yellow line with their SUVs.
#3 West End Jeff
We have 7 inches in Westport, CT...and a few more inches is expected through 4 AM. It was raining this morning, but changed to snow after 2 PM. The Winter Weather Advisory was changed to a Winter Storm Warning, since the accumulation is now 6+ inches. -Nick
MERRY CHRISTMAS
From The Family @ TransiTALK
May You & Yours Be Blessed This Holiday Season!
Regards,
Trevor Logan & The TransiTALK Family
www.transitalk.org
To my Subtalk colleagues a very merry Christmas and or a very happy holiday to all of you out there.
Merry Christmas to you #4 Sea Beach Fred
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Fred, may all your trains be #4 Sea Beach Expresses!
--Mark
I just wanted to share my experience of this Christmas Eve.
It was almost somewhat magical - I came home around 8 after working -- even the last hour of work was really fun, as we were laid back and took a lot of group pictures and wished greetings to each other as we recovered merchandise--
anyway, I get home and continue stringing lights around the house, meanwhile my parents and I had our traditional quiet Christmas Eve dinner, consisting mostly of seafood and pasta that my mother prepared, then caught part of A Christmas Story on TNT, and my father and I even got into a lengthy discussion about transit in the area and different ways it could be improved!
Afterward, I called my [girl]friend -- not 'girlfriend' (although we dated for a while) but she is my closest and best friends, almost like a soulmate-- and we went to midnight mass at the Cathedral Basillica in Newark.
I don't attend church regularly, in fact I haven't been to mass in ... well I'm sure God knows! But I was pleasantly surprised to see snow falling when I left my house. We got down there and took our seats and the whole service was really uplifting. I'd have to say the most riviting parts were the processional ('Come All Ye Faithful) and the recessional (Hark the Herald Angels Sing) - between the choir, the organ and the sight of the robed altar servers walking down the aisle carrying the large cross, it was really something.
Then the Postlude (Tocatta from Symphony No. 5 by Charles Marie Widor) came right after the recessional, and I was bound and determined to remain there until the last chords echoed through the hall. Toni rolled her eyes in that loving way, but we were staying! As the piece ended and we emerged from the Cathedral, snow was falling pretty steadily and there was a coating on the ground...
Considering I have had some pretty rough and painful personal issues over the past month or so, this evening really opened my eyes and made me realize that as bad as things have been for me, it could have been so much worse. I really think this was one of the best Christmas Eve's I have ever had.
As I sat and knelt during the service, my thoughts and prayers went out to those who are lonely souls and are not able to be in the presence of loved ones, family members, and friends.
Loneliness is one of the worst feelings in the world and if anyone reading this is in such a state, my heart goes out to you. Believe my, if I could make it go away and provide love and support, I would do it.
"Loneliness has followed me my whole life - in bars, in cars, sidewalks, stores, everywhere. There's no escape. I'm God's lonely man"
-Robert DeNiro (as Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver).
~Merry Christmas~
Sometimes we ALL need to be grateful for what we have even if we don't realize its abundance at first. So many of the most PRECIOUS gifts don't cost a penny and have value beyond anything money can provide. Glad to hear it, guy ... looks like you've got the VALUE of Christmas ... good for you! :)
Yeah Im goin through the loneliness myself. It is quite difficult. I remember when I was a kid Christmas was a time I'd get presents, and that was all I thought about then. But now, I dont even care if I get any "material" presents as I realize there are things much more important than that.
When I went into the city on Monday, I ran into a fellow LI Bus driver I knew at the transit museum shop in GCT. That was nice. The transit store was out of calenders though, but it didnt really bother me.
I have been praying alot lately, not in church but just looking up at the sky, and talking to God. It does help, it gives me something to believe in. There is a reason all of us are here, and the Earth and human civilization is more than science, it is a miracle.
Im trying my best to change myself, and not be so shy when it comes to girls. I even was forward enough to give a particular sweet bank teller a Christmas gift which she thought was "so sweet" of me.
I know what is missing in my life, and it is nothing material. But I hope and pray, and know someday, I will find her. And maybe someday soon.
I wish you all a happy holiday!
You should talk on IM with Joe. Joe is a classmate of mine. His AIM username is MITSGuy2001. If you use IM, add him to your list, he is going through the same kind of thing. All he want is hugs, and he keeps on asking me what hot girls that I knew that he could hug. He is just very lonely. You can tell him I gave you his username.
I was like that too, but then I got used to it. Railroading is a lonely profession.
AEM7
Merry Christmas to you too! It's good to see you back here again!
I'm faithful that all ye will come to NYC and ride the subways with me! That's about it I'm faithful about.
Just after Whitehall Street going into Brooklyn, what is that tunnel that merges off to the right and a few feet down, what is that tunnel that merges in from the left?
The one that comes from the left is the Nassau St line {today's M line}. I don't know anything about a tunnel that goes to the right and down.
The one that goes to the right and down is the Capulet Tunnel.
:0)
FIE UPON THEE!!!!
Just leaving Whitehall Street and before the M train coming in from Broad Street is a 2 track provision. It isn't sure what it was meant for. Some people have said in this site it would have been a connection to Staten Island. Others have said a connection to Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
And still others claim that it was just made to pull the tunnel making machine out of the way.
Which is the most likely event in my opinion.
Elias
Since there were no "tunnel making machines" in the late 1910s/early 1920s, it's highly unlikely that this piece of tunnel was put there to get the "tunnel making machine" out of the way. Underriver tubes of the era were dug out by people called "sandhogs," basically by hand. Tunnel Boring Machines are a relatively recent invention and aren't suitable for all tunneling environments.
David
Nice call!
I still think it was a route that was planned but never started outside of a bellout provision.
I think it was planned to go to Staten Island, but others laugh at me. I want to believe!
What would be quite fun would be routing new tunnels from those bellmouths just South of the Montague Tunnel to line up with Remsen St then do a double bend to get into Court St station (currently the transit museum) to take over the Fulton St Local (BMT back on Fulton St!). This would work especially well if all Montague tunnel trains headed up Nassau St onto the 2nd Avenue Line... (dreams...)
I like that. Very creative.
I'd like to help you believe. But from just off South Ferry to near St George is a long run. The tunnel would have been a major project to avoid ship traffic in New York Harbor.
The BRT/BMT had plans to send service to Staten Island from a connection to their 4th Avenue line at 59 St/4 Ave. The IND had plans to send their service via Ft Hamilton Pkwy from after the 7th Ave station. At that part of Brooklyn the river tunnel would have been alot shorter than across New York Bay.
At least the tunnel between South Ferry and St. George would have a free pass from the NYMBYs for five miles, and that is something.
Building it would disrupt ship traffic in New York Harbor.
Not that much. The harbor is deep enough to use the sunken tube tunnel construction method safely.
The harbor is deep enough. But dropping the tube tunnels would dispupt the ship traffic.
The harbor is deep enough. But dropping the tube tunnels would dispupt the ship traffic.
Ach! The harbour is wide, ships can sail this way or that at will.
Elias
In that case the first thing that should be done is to plot the bottom of NY Bay so that when ship traffic gets rerouted, there is a alternate way for boats to get to/out their ports.
Anyone who operates ships in NY Harbor already has a plot of the bottom. Even I have one, although it's slightly out of date.
There is one major north/south channel that averages about 55 feet deep. It runs pretty much straight through the middle of the Upper Bay along the NJ/NY border, passing just west of Governor's Island and continuing up the Hudson. This channel is about 3000 feet wide.
Just south of Manhattan (get a map - draw a straight line that continues along the SI Ferry car loading approach (just off State St) and hits the B'klyn Battery Tunnel Ventilator) is an 800 foot wide channel for East River ship traffic. This one averages 40 feet deep.
To get from the Bellmouths in the Montague Tube to SI, you would need to tunnel under the East River Channel, curving back towards NJ, tunnel under Governor's Island, and then continue on the Brooklyn side of the main channel to about 65 St, then swing west to hit SI by the St George/Stapleton waterfront.
For those with time on their hands, go to the US Geological Survey website and search for the "Jersey City Quadrangle", which will show you the Upper Bay.
That route would provide for access to govenors island which would allow for some nice casino or conference center development to help support the resoration of the historic homes. Riders boarding at the casino stop could pay a premium say $5 a ride to get back to the city subsidising the cost of the new subway tunnel.
I never know why NYC is so opposed to casino development. It would bring thousands of jobs. Anyone who wants to gamble can get a virtually free bus ride to atlantic city. In fact the NY times ran an article over the summer where elderly poor chinese people make a few dollars a day by taking the bus to AC, grab a free lunch at the local soup kitchen and take the bus back in the evening
I think that gambling should be legalized in the Rockaways instead. That place already has access, is isolated and has plenty of empty spaces. It's also close to the airport.
The ferry when it goes from the Battery to St George, it doesn't take a straight path. If you've been on it, you'd notice.
Alex has been on the ferry. In case it's not obvious enough from the fact that he lives in Staten Island, I have personally ridden it with him (though he sat inside while I gawked like a tourist).
It was cold out David. Given the choice, I prefer the warmth.
It was actually quite warm for December -- in the 50's, as I recall.
But of course you'd sit inside. Only a tourist would stand at the front. When it comes to Staten Island, Manhattan residents are tourists.
Come the summertime, I stand outside (weather permitting). It's fun being out in the open after spending 8 hours in atunel. Besides, someone has to tell the tourists that that bridge is NOT the George Washington.
someone has to tell the tourists that that bridge is NOT the George Washington.
LMAO! Tourists... even if you gave most of them a decent map, they wouldn't know how to use it!
I only rode the SI Ferry once. It was also the only time I rode the length of Staten Island Railway, and also the first time I rode to South Ferry on the 1. It was in the middle of January of I guess 1990, and I also gawked like a tourist outside in the cold for the whole trip. When I get home, I have to pull out my photos of that trip, I haven't looked at them in years
If Governors Island isn't blocking shipping, how can a tunnel building project do so?
Errrmmmm... isn't Staten Island an island? Doesn't that mean you can sail a boat around it if the worst comes to the worst?
>>> isn't Staten Island an island? Doesn't that mean you can sail a boat around it if the worst comes to the worst? <<<
Yes, if the boat is small enough. Or you could direct traffic up the East River, then around Manhattan (another island) to the Hudson River. :-)
Tom
"Yes, if the boat is small enough."
Arthur Kill and Kill Van Kull (between SI and NJ) actually support sizeable ocean going vessels, though they may not be quite as deep as the main harbor channel. The Outerbridge, Goethals, and Bayonne are all nice and high above the water.
The Harlem River probably isn't as deep. I've never heard of ocean going ships there. Also, to send any kind of ship with a high mast that way means the drawbridges would have to be raised, disrupting traffic.
I have also heard that this was a provision for another paralell tunnel to Montague St. for Broadway-only service so that the existing tunnel could be used exclusively by Nassau St. loop service.
The tunnel from the left toward Brooklyn is used for the M train going to 9 Av [Bay Parkway rush hours] weekdays. I do not know of any other tunnel spur around there.
I was always curious about this. Entering the tunnel from Broad Street station, the tracks where J and Z trains turn around. Was this the original purpose for these tracks or were they meant to go somewhere else?
Powerball time!!!! So, I decided to go (with my folks, of course)up to Connecticut to press our luck.
Got the 11:38 out of Hewlett. The ride was very enjoyable. At Jamaica, it turns out our 12:06 connection was a direct to Penn. So, we had to wait for the 12:14 to Woodside.
Here's the confusing part. 12:14 comes and goes. We hear nothing. At about 12:18, as we see the headlights passing the S. Atlantic underjump, we hear the info booth announce that the "12:14 train will be approximately 6 minutes late". Now, the solari board posts the lateness. The ride was not bad at all.
We arrive at woodside, and what do we see? Is that? Yes, it is! A redbird! We run upstairs, but miss the train by about 6 seconds. Much to my surprise, I look towards 74th street. Another redbird?? Yes, it is! So, maybe for the last time ever,I took the railfan's window. Pulling out of Woodside (Somewhere between the 61st and 46th street sta.s,)I looked out the side window, and spot an Acela Express coming off of the Hells Gate Approach. Most likely the 1pm to DC.
Upon arrival at GCT, we headed straight for the ticket counter. My goal was the 1pm super-express to NH, Stopping at Westport first. However, the time was 12:57. Oh no!!!!!!!!!
Got the tickets, ran to track 100, and.... The train was pulling out! Luckily (I guess) the train on the adjacent track was the 1:07 normal express to NH. The conductors told us to go to the last car of a jam-packed train. The car stunk of rotting balogna. The ride was painstakingly slow. Note: At the Woodlawn sta, we switched to the local track (there's another station with a switch IN IT!). On the NH line, we stayed on the local track (4, IIRC) all the way. Before New Rochelle jct. we heard the conductor exclaim "what the hell is going on?". After NRC, we halted for a good 5 minutes. Another slow trek to Stamford. Outside of Stamford, we halted for 10 minutes due to "inspection"(in the middle of the ROW???) Mind you, we were NOT at the platform, but a good 50 yds. away from it. The WB express track is next for the Triangle replacement, with its wires down, and partial reconstruction underway. Also, the local tracks have the concrete ties, but the express don't. Can someone clarify this for me?
At Milford, saw a flying banana leading AMT173. Also saw Amt93 Pass somewhere in Connecticut.
At NH, saw AE2167 make a stop on track 1. Man, that thing has real presence about it. And it moves very nicely and fast in and out of the station. Without the hood, it DOES look a little doofy.
Got to NH, and got the 3:28 SLE to Stamford. SLE runs to Stamford off-peak? Also, it seems that the train originated in NH (union sta.) Weird. Anyways, the train made minimal stops. There were 3 cars (2 open), and only 50 or so people on the train (If not less). It is a much better ride on the desiel than on the MU's. I loved the sound of the horn as we blew by. A real presence there.
At one of the Conn. drawbridges, we passed 2164. Didn't look so mighty as it had to cross the draw at 30MPH. The SLE run ended at STAM. and as we awaited an MU set, I saw 142 Arrive and depart.. I also passed 86 somewhere along the route.
Do you think the M4's are better under catenary, or 3rd rail? I think that once we switched at Pelham, the ride got rougher. We kept hitting the overspeed, also. Nice semi-express run down parallel to the NE Thruway.
Got to Penn (thanks to subway), and decided to take te 6:02 super express, with no stop at Jamaica. Before we depart, though, it is announced that there WILL be a Jamaica stop, due to a stall on the 5:49 out of Brooklyn. We pull into Jam, wait. What do we see pull up along us? Car 7011, Yes, an M7! Beautiful sight! If you needed THAT to rescue you from a Far Rock train, you are one lucky bastard!
Regards,
TRK
How can you get to New Hampshire on MNRR? Only the Amtrak Downeaster goes there.
NH.
New Haven.
Oh, that's DOWN to NH (New Haven), UP to NH (New Hampshire). Because he said up to NH I assumed that he meant New Hampshire. New Haven is South so you go DOWN South and New Hampshire is North so you go UP North.
AEM7
Dont be so anal on christmas.You knew what he meant as well as everyone else on here.
MUDEY
????? you trying to say MOODY??
"Oh, that's DOWN to NH (New Haven)"
If traveling from Long Island, New Haven is up.
Amen.
I experience the Pelham switchover regularly and don't notice a change in the ride. Often some intercom traffic there and at the Cos Cob drawbridge, however, to get the power turned back on in the rear cars. The bologna smell may have been the lavs; cars second from either end are avoided by the regulars, though one way to get a seat on the New Haven is next to the toidy.
Did you go all the way to New Haven for railfanning purposes? You could of bought Powerball in Greenwich, Stamford, or Darien. -Nick
Its easier I find to go to NH. This was the first packed train I have experienced. If you recall, the first powerball was a mess. The turnover rate at STAM was about 50%. At NHV, I purchased tichets within the station. Mabe next time I'll venture out onto the branches.
There is a place called Desi's corner here in Westport-Saugatuck (not Greens Farms). Allyou have to do is go under the tunnel to the westbound side. When you are up the stairs and have your body faced towards the street, you'll see it kiddy corner to you on the right, across the street from the post office. It takes an hour from GCT. -Nick
The 15:38 SLE train orginates at NH from the yard, its would be a deadhead move to Stamford for the PM rush hour return trip but as you saw they got revenue of 50 customers plus yourself instead of no revenue at all.
MetroNorth won't let Shoreline store trains at Stamford as they are too crowded there to begin with. SLE yards most of their trains at New Haven.
One of my Hannukah/Christmas presents was a calendar entitled "Those Magnificent Trains." It starts off with the following quote:
"There isn't a train I wouldn't take, no matter where it's going." - Edna St. Vincent Millay
Edna St. Vincent Millay enjoyed the social aspect of riding trains... the people you meet, or just observing other folks interacting... she also enjoyed the changing scenery. (All of these are reasons I enjoy trains and subways too.) On the other hand, I don't know as she would have known the difference between one locomotive or car type and another.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll admit I'm graduating slowly from my preferred R-68's to recognizing an other CARS. But I get a wealth of material for short stories from PEOPLE'S faces and stances and where they gat on and off, and especially on the MNRR, where the conversations (or spats) are loud and lingering. I'll get up to look at the face of the wife that just got insulted and -- shazzam -- she's ready to come back with a good one. No wonder Edna couldn't stay home. No wonder NYC produces so many writers.
I was over at Model SubTalk earlier and read a posting that indicated the model railroad company, LifeLike, is going to release a three-car set of IRT R-17 cars. Pricing is supposedly $150 for the set which isn't bad provided there is good detailing throughout.
Has anyone else heard anything along similar lines?
This is my 1st time on subtalk hello everyone.I have not heard anything but if the detailing is good thats not a bad price.
Welcome to SubTalk! There is so much to learn here! Current events, historical tidbits, etc.
The LifeLike Products website doesn't have any mention of it, and they list new releases through at least July of next year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, that's also what I had read. Not sure if this means LATER next year in time for the holidays of 2003 (leading into the Centennial Year for the Opening of the IRT). Might be that that is the plan.
BTW, the set will be a FOUR-CAR train NOT 3 cars.
so are we fantasizing Images Replicas dies traveling to the P(rison Rep of China?
I'd surmise that if Lifelike's subway models do indeed like 'lifelike' (sorry about the pun) then it spells bad news for guys like Joel Lovitch who make brass HO models exclusively. Image Replicas may not take too much of a beating because his kits would come in handy for those who are trying to make a 10 or 11 (Flushing) length IRT trains....Lifelike will be selling their R-17s in four car sets. Chances are that the average subway modeller will want two sets for an 8-car train. Others may want the Flushing length trains and this means buying individual add-on cars....that's where IR would come in. MTS Imports would take a beating 'cause who the heck would want to spend $300 on just 1 IRT car?
A buddy of mine out here in California (up in Sacramento) sent me an ad from (I think) TrainWorld...and it mentioned "Proto 1000" R-17 subway cars, but it had details listed such as "Magnetraction" (isn't that something Lionel used??) and had a photo of what looked like MTH IRT cars.
It made me THINK Life-Like ("Proto 1000" is one of their lines...) but it also made me think that whoever did the ad copy messed things up, put that "Proto 1000" logo in there, and those are NOT Life-Like.
The ad DID mention a $150.00 price tag.....
Kind of cheap for R17 HO Scale. Red Caboose in Manhattan would sell them for double the price. I bought my first ALP-44 loco from him at a whopping $145. To expand my NJT fleet, I discovered Trainworld in Brooklyn sold the ALP-44 for only $70. I ended up buying 2 of them for that price. I was dependent on R.C. for my Comet II fleet, but now that I can order them from the railroads themselves, and cheaper too, I no longer give that guy my business anymore. But now, I'm wondering if any of these are available in fully assembled models( I hate kits):
Arrow II or III, Metro-North FL9, or NJT E60CP locomotive.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
PS I already have MNRR F40 and P32DM( repainted one for LIRR service)
Hmmm, I repainted one of my P32's for LIRR service as well. What do you use for coaches? Waiting for a possible production of LIRR's DE/DM's along with the new C3 equipment in HO, possibly by Frank Cicero, or Mike Bartel. Don't hold your breath on it. It could take a few years. FL9's are made by Branford Hobbies for $150.00 undecorated, and $199.00 painted in the New Haven Scheme. I would like production of the FL9AC model for LIRR. Also, next year, IHP will be selling (Comet III/Shoreliner III) coaches/cabs. Check out their website.
I checked IHP and they want too much for the Comet III fleet. As for my LIRR coaches, I stripped 4 NJDOT cars and used the M from the Metro-North Microscale decals. I wrote in Long Island RailRoad next to the M as small as HO scale allows. I'm pretty good with that. I don't know if the two-tone blue M is available. Two coaches and two cab cars make up my temporary LIRR fleet. P32 was easy. Just rub out Metro North and put Long Island in its place and just leave Railroad alone. On the coaches, I only stripped the NJDOT/E-L logos and painted black over them. The M and lettering is in a similar position to the Metro North coaches.
Microscale makes a LIRR set as well, with the 2-tone M
I hope they make R33/R36 Redbirds instead of the Blue and White WF Colors. That would look nice!
#9542 7 Flushing Local
Proto 1000 and proto 200 is made by life like, that is the better products they make. I collect ho trains and I do buy alot of proto products from life like. It is a good product, but as of yet I have not heard of the r-17s. alot of the subway product made for the most part now do not have traction power except for the brass products which cost the better part of $ 300.00. I would be courious to see if these potential products will be motorized and how good the detail is
Proto 1000 and proto 2000 is made by life like, that is the better products they make. I collect ho trains and I do buy alot of proto products from life like. It is a good product, but as of yet I have not heard of the r-17s. alot of the subway product made for the most part now do not have traction power except for the brass products which cost the better part of $ 300.00. I would be courious to see if these potential products will be motorized and how good the detail is.
this is a edited comment i meant to say proto 2000 sorry
I was wondering if anybody other then myself has a subway
themed tattoo? I have the front of a redbird #7 on my calf
My next will be the letter/number symbols of my old neighborhood
E-F-G-R-7.
I have heard of foamers doing some strange things but you - go to the top of the list.
After you get the E-F-G-R-7 done, let us know. I'll see if the Transit Museum would like to put you on exhibit.
You are not alone in your madness. There is another sub/bus talker who has mentioned that he has a transit related tatoo. Anyone remember who?
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably me, I had mentioned it last year sometime.
I was a little leary about getting it done, but everyone I know who
knows me thought it was perfect since I was obsessed with subway
cars from when I was real young.
The guy who inked me thought it was a great idea too, so I feel
good about it.
No it's not you that I was thinking of.
Peace,
ANDEE
I like the idea....I'm saving up the $$$ to have the map of the DC Metro placed on my back (not to be confused with my backside ;)
I like the subway, but wow, you guys seem to be taking this to the extreme! Well, if anyone ever gets lost in the subway, I guess you could help them by taking off your shirt and directing them where to go using your back....until service changes.
Until Service changes?
Who says I couldn't update the tattoo w/ the service changes?
As long as its not a track map ;-)
Ed McKernan has two that I know of, an R-9 (the same drawing that Victor Gordon has on his video tapes) and an IRT substation window design (that does not appear to be transit related, but is).
I have the "Legs of Man" tatooed on my arm (technically, a celtic triskelion), which does not appear to be transit-related, but is the logo of the Isle of Man Railway. I left out the Gaelic lettering, just went with the design, which is a series of armored legs inside a banner. Ive gotten quite a few compliments on it, I never regretted getting it.
For anyone seriously thing about some body ink (transit or otherwise), I would very highly recommend Modern Electric Tattoo in Jersey City, where I had mine done, the woman who owns the place (Denise) is a fabulous artist who, like me, drove a yellow cab in NYC. The difference between scratching and body art, well worth the price difference.
I have a question, in a storm such as this tonight how often are they clearing the tracks on the Rockaway line from Liberty ramp aLL the way to Rockaway? It must be something to be on an A-train heading to Rockaway in this storm.
Right now, they're not going anywhere except for Lefferts. Power's out between 96-Rockaway Blvd and the Peninsula.
The stretch along Liberty is standard boxgirder elevated; it's along t he former LIRR ROW where there could be problems with snow.
wayne
I didn't encounter any problems whatsoever on December 5. The only concern was visibility. (Well, I suppose it doesn't help that R-38's aren't exactly weatherproof -- it was snowing in the cab and at the railfan window.) The T/O (TSS, actually) got the train up to 45 into Broad Channel and stopped right at the marker.
i looks like is winding down here just out side of newark nj. looks like about 4 inches so far. the dogs love it
Definately worse than I thought here, the convection really caught me by suprise this time. It'll sure be interesting once the snowfall tallies come in.
Just west of 9 Avenue Station on the West End Line there are two sets of ramps rising to the west. The first set contains the yard leads for the yard. (Y1,Y2). These ramps were also used by the 5 Avenue El trains before 1940. What was the intended purpose of the second set of ramps?
Thanks,
Larry, RedbirdR33
As of 6:30PM we have about 8 inches of snow at Beacon, NY.
8 Inches!!! We got Zero so far in Suffolk. Just a lot of heavy rain and wind, although it is getting colder.
Wow, I guess I spoke too soon. Right after I posted that it started to snow, and there's about an inch on the ground already!
Snow is like sex. You never know how many inches you'll get, how long it will last, or how hard it is going to get.
LOL! I guess we're all hoping for a long, hard snowstorm with a large accumulation.
we got about 3 ft so far.....and it still hasn't stoped.
The set of ramps nearest the 9th Avenue station were the yard leads pre-1940. The second set was for the 5th Avenue L. Culver was a busy line. They didn't want the yard tracks fouling a main.
Paul: So the second set of ramps was used by the Fifth Avenue El? I always had thought that this was the case since I have a trackmap of the area which was published in Silver Leaf Booklet #3. Lately though I have seen reports (like a recent RA Bulletin) that the el shared the yard leads which is what prompted my question. Thanks,
Larry, RedbirdR33
It's been debated for years whether the second set of ramps actually ever had rail or whether the Culver 'L' trains actually did use them.
No one I've ever met remembers. (It would have been Culver, not 5th Avenue 'L' trains--5th Avenue trains went down to 3rd Avenue and over to 65th Street.)
I would think that some train operators who were in their early 20s and operated Culver up to 1943 (ideally 'L'operators, but subway would be all right, as would West End operators) are still around.
Some day, someone may uncover a photo of a Culver train on its way up or down those ramps and we'll have a definite answer.
The entire complex was always an amazing thing to ride through, especially southbound Culvers, and I still occasionally like to draw the track map from the 1950s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Living above the Snow Belt--nothing but patches of last weekend's snow, so no White Christmas for us in the St.Lawrence Valley.
I was told by someone wo did remember that those ramps were for the 5th Avenue L connection of the Culver. I have an old pre-construction engineering map which shows this, but of course it doesn't "prove" the tracks were installed.
But why would we assume that the ramps were built for the purpose and never used? 39th Street Yard was the key yard of the Southern Division before Coney Island was built and it would not have made sense to have an active line service (all Culver trains went to the 5th Avenue L before 1931) to be using the only yard leads to an active yard if there were any other choice.
Further, it would have been a challenge for elevated trains to climb from the lower level at 9th Avenue, immediately negotiate slip switches and continue a further climb without a chance to level out and recover.
Paul Matus's logic makes a lot of sense and I'd like to agree. But I'd still like some evidence--photos, rail, even remaining pieces of ties or used spikes--that the second set of ramps was used to get to the elevated on Fifth Avenue. I don't know if the big concrete footing on the east side of Fifth Avenue is still there, but it was impossible to tell even from that where the tracks went once they got onto the embankment.
If I ever get around to doing a rapid transit layout (and could learn to solder), that complex would be a major part (along with Park Row in the 1930s and the great set of switches currently at 33rd Street on PATH).
Let's keep looking. Does the New York Public Library still have its run of BMT employee magazines? If I were nearer, I'd try looking through them for a picture or a notice.
Hoping,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
On the no overhead, no third-rail CSX, former Conrail,
former New York Central Montreal Secondary
Here is a view of 9th Avenue looking west when it was brand new. Unfortunately, for you conspiracy theorists ;-) the foorbridge blocks part of our view. I don't see the slip switches to get the Culver center to the westbound yard lead. It looks like we can see the eastbound second ramp, but I don't see a track on it. I think I see a standard near the center of the picture.
Nice picture, even if a bit blurry. I don't see a second ramp, but it could be like saints' faces in the clouds or on the sides of snow-covered mountains. Where did you find the picture?
What's interesting is seeing a Standard on what seems to be the northbound Culver local track--I don't think Standards were used on the Culver until inauguration of subway service after the Nassau Loop connection to the Montague Street Tunnel was opened. It might have been a shop move or something. Neither West End track is connected to that track either.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Nice picture, even if a bit blurry. I don't see a second ramp, but it could be like saints' faces in the clouds or on the sides of snow-covered mountains. Where did you find the picture?
It's a detail from a larger pic, scanned from a 35mm neg. I came across it while trying to rationalize and digitize some of the Silver Leaf archive. What I think is the second ramp is two diagonal lines to the left of the Standard.
What's interesting is seeing a Standard on what seems to be the northbound Culver local track--I don't think Standards were used on the Culver until inauguration of subway service after the Nassau Loop connection to the Montague Street Tunnel was opened. It might have been a shop move or something. Neither West End track is connected to that track either.
It could have come from the West End center track. Or maybe a shop move.
What bugs me is that I seem to recall seeing a track diagram recently of the yard as it was before 1940 with the ramps used, but I have no guess where. Of course, "recently" for me could mean a decade ago. ;-) If I find out more, I'll post it.
I finally changed the spelling to "second." 8-)
A track diagram, whether "official" or done by a railfan, would be a good way to clear up the question.
I'll look at the picture again.
Thanks for the updates.
Ed Alfonsin
Just looked at the photo again--I can see why the parallel lines to the left of the Standard look like a ramp, but weren't those ramps further west?
I'd love to see an aerial photo from the time. Did the Little Flower commission such views of the city? (BTW, it just dawned on me after decades of not thinking about it that "fiorello" is the Italian for 'little flower'--his nickname was simply a translation--like calling someone named "George" by the nickname 'Farmer,' since that's what the Greek original meant.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
From the station at 9th Ave, going west, first was the ramp to the yard. Then was the ramp to the 5th Ave El.
As of 6:30PM we have about 8 inches of snow at Beacon, NY.
Glad I declined an invite to go to Poughkeepsie for the day! We've only got just over an inch in Eatontown, NJ as of 1920h and that's too much, as far as I am concerned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have about 14 inches here north of Scranton.
BMDoobieW,
Is the Laural LIne put to bed for the Winter?
If so, when will it re-open in the Spring?
avid
Why did the TA allow the scratchiti to get out of hand a la the grafiti epidemic of the 1970's?
The R-68's operating on the B and D are disgraceful.
I agree with you. That scratchiti stuff is pretty ugly, no beauty to it compared to the subways of the 70's and 80's. I was once a young artist myself( I stick to canvas and paper now) and seeing this scratch stuff makes me sick. I'll admit seeing your tag running through the city was cool at one time, but at least it was with paint, and it was washable at one time. That scratch stuff can't be removed. If I'm not mistaken, they need to replace the whole window if it was scratched up. Maybe MTA needs to invest in that car product I once saw on paid programing. If it works on autos, it should work on trains, if they are still selling that product.
And it was only $19.95 for each set along with a 2 for 1 when you call within 30 minutes :o). Seriously, that scratchiti is awful and its whack, ugly and has no artistic flavor. However, the graffiti made the cars & stations colorful and "brightened" ugly paint schemes [what were they thinking painting them white :-\] and a depresseing, declining system.
Queens No Service on A train from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Boulevard because of Power Outage
There is no service on the train from Far Rockaway to Roackaway Boulevard because of a Power Outage. Look for bus service if provided because of problem.
I got this from 1010 wins.
"Look for bus service if provided because of problem."
Is TA providing the buses or are people hoping for the Q-21, Q-22 and Q-35?
Hoping for the Q21 to show up now that's funny! And its a Sunday schedule, that means double the waiting for those routes, especially the Q21. It would be sensilble if there were shuttle buses but how much B/O's would you find to work since it is a holiday. Maybe its back to normal now.
With the Q21 it's all a matter of timing. If you know when it comes, you're able to get in and out of the Rockaways. Provided that it's able to get thru.
Good old LIPA!
Uh...it's KeySpan now (technically LIPA has been gobbled up by Brooklyn Union Gas Co.).
Gobbled up? Wouldn't that constitute "LIPAsuction?" Don't blame me - we've got 26.6 inches on the ground and are on diesel power now. Must be da fumes. :)
While the name has changed, it's still the same LILCO we all know and love. :-0
Who can decipher the subject line?
Hint: it has something to do with the 3 train.
Last 2 digits on 4 successive cars? I guess it was 1944, 1948, 2048, and 2148 all on the same train.
Can't be 2144, that one's at Corona. Unless one of them's 1844.
wayne.
Umm, the topic says 44-48-44-44 not 44-48-48-48. Anyway, I'll take a shot at it; maybe its 1944, 1948, 2044 and 2244?
I meant 44, sorry.
Hey, we all make mistakes. I wonder what is the purpose of this, if this is some sort of trivia question.
Greenberger woke up sick this morning so I think he is going nuts or something. But feel free to play along with his little game...
---Brian
Maybe those were the results of a winning pick four ticket he found on the 3 train. Ya never know. :)
Thats true you never know. Now how do you get 3 of the same number on a Lotto ticket :o).
For pick four, there's four separate hoppers, so you can get the same number all four times. I don't think it goes up to 44'ish though. I don't play the (ahem) "games" ... way I figure it, the politicians already empty my wallet enough without having to voluntarily hand over even MORE. Let them tax Donald Trump. :)
And you're right Pick 4's usually don't go that high. Taxing the rich like they tax the middle class ha yeah right,if that were to happen I'll think were having a Armageddon! :o)
Win 4 only goes from 0-9, so you pick a 4-digit number.
You get partial winnings for matching them in the wrong order.
Numbers is the same, just with only 3 numbers.
Ahhh, I was thinking it may be a drunken stuphor, but fever can have the same effects....
Seriously though, I racked my brains - can't crack it. I thought maybe an extremely large woman on the 3 train......although WMATA's idea seems the most logical.....for lack of me coming up with any idea.
You're on the wrong track. I almost never pay attention to car numbers.
Think. Where was I on the train? What was I paying attention to?
I was thinking some kind of wierd GO up at 148th back and forth to the next station - 145th but that doesn't fit with the 44, so scratch that idea. You have a way of driving people nuts with these things! Well at least there is a clue this time. That time you had me do that map thing with the Sept 30, 1990 map, I came close to loosing my mind (well not really, but you know what I mean), and it was such a simple answer. But anyway, back to the drawing board.
If it's what I'm thinking it has to do with number of seats. But, that would be 46 - 48 - 46 - 46, since expanding a cab only removes 2 seats not 4.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmmm, that sounds a bit like something David would notice. I think you may be getting closer.
Yeah, but I just checked an interior pic of an R-62A and my assumption is wrong. There are 44 seats in an R-62A without the expanded cab. 42 with.
Peace,
ANDEE
The train in question had no transverse cabs.
Then it *MUST* be something to do with observing the speedometer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Finally.
I rode from 148 to Fulton at the railfan window, with one eye peering over the T/O's shoulder at the speedometer.
The 3 has four express runs: 96-72, 72-42, 34-14, and 14-Chambers. The top speeds we hit were 44 (approaching 72), 48 (through 50), 44 (approaching 14), and 44 (through Houston).
I challenge all of you to find any other line in the system that reaches those speeds.
LOL....it crossed my mind some time ago, but I figured that no subway reaches those speeds anymore.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah all those timers especially on CPW and the Fulton express really spoiled the good express runs basically you only find those speeds going through tunnels.
"I challenge all of you to find any other line in the system that reaches those speeds."
Maximum speed doesn't help get you where you are going if it isn't sustained. But the really useful thing about this run is that it sustains an average speed of about 25 mph for over 5 miles, including time stopped.
The Q Express line also has four express runs between Prospect Park and Sheepshead Bay with NO GT timers unlike your 3 line (timers at s/b 50th Street, s/b Franklin Street, n/b Christopher Street.) Now try your senses when the Q Diamond line runs northbound and passes the Avenue H station. If it weren't for the Newkirk Avenue station we have to stop there, we could easily top your 48 MPH.
I've watched the speedometer on the Brighton express (NB from Kings Highway to Prospect Park). IIRC it didn't top 38. Sorry.
Once on the Brighton Express (Manhattan bound), we hit 48 entering Newkirk. Would have been more if it weren't for the station at the end of the downgrade. I could see the speedometer clearly since a new T/O was being trained and the door was open.
Yes, the great Brighton express! Throw a R32 on the Q diamond and its definitely reaching 45 mph, possibly more, particularly btw Newkirk and Kings Hwy & btw Kings Hwy and Sheepshead Bay. You're right if Newkirk was local it would probably top 48 MPH.
Trains routinely hit 50 MPH in the Joralemon St. and 60th St. tubes, but there they have gravity to assist. R46's can hit 50 MPH on Queens Blvd. I'm not sure how fast the slants can go on the Brighton exp.
Damn David, did you really have to put us through all this stress, sheesh LOL. The Brighton line shall challenge those speeds! Just throw an R32 or R42 on there and you got a challenge. Since the IRT cars starts slightly faster than the IND/BMT cars, the 3 and the IRT lines have a advantage there. You also have the Rockaway stretch on the A. And if it weren't for the timers on CPW express, it would easily reach 40+ mph.
This is a stretch for me. There are four stops on the 3, the second being a two platform at (boy am I laying myself open, I'm new here, gang), Columbus Circle?) Four doors opened at 96th, eight at CC because they unloaded both sides for the first time in a dog's age, four at Times Square, four at Penn Station.
Oops. Never mind; it's, like, 125th that has that two-platform business. I spend too much time in Stamford MNR.
No, it is Columbus Circle that has the extra platform, not 125th.
But that's Columbus Circle IND, not Columbus Circle IRT. IRT expresses don't even stop at Columbus Circle.
And IRT cars have three doorways on each side, not four.
But you certainly win on imagination.
The IRT has the number trains [1/9,2,3,4,5,6,7]. The IND & BMT are letter lines. CC on the 7 Av IRT is a local station actually, the IND Columbus Circle station is the level with 3 platforms. IRT cars have 3 doors per side while the IND/BMT has 4 doors per side. Relax, its OK to be wrong and make mistakes we all do.
Sounds like a gamarrah question :-)
To be honest, I might wait this out and wait until someone gets it right or you post the answer. If I think of anything else, I will post it.
Was it the chest sizes of 4 girls sitting opposite you ?????
Holy cow. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Better them then the waist sizes of some us Sub-talkers.
Hey! I resemble that remark :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I may be going way off base, but does it have to do with on how different the second stop (145th st) is, when only the front 5 cars open. (148th st ALL, 145th st FRONT 5, 135th st ALL, 125th st ALL). That's why the 48 is a unique number in this set.
Not at all.
Will you stop watching the speedometer!
Theses are top speeds on a downtown 3 express:
44 between 96 and 72;
48 between 72 and 42;
44 between 34 and 14; and
44 between 14 and Chambers St.
Did you peak at the answers?
No. I just know David too well.
Sounds like you've had personal experience.
Personal experience? I lived on the Brighton Line when the R34 (formerly R11, the first stainless steel train) was running on the Franklin Shuttle, the QJ was the Brighton local, and R32's were running on the D line. That was over 30 years ago.
I think we're all well aware that experience from 30 years ago isn't terribly relevant today.
My experience in this case is about 14 months old. The post-9/11 service plan had some R-32's on the circle-Q, and a GO one weekend had northbound Q's running express. (Speedometers aren't visible through the R-40 cab hinge.)
I can see the speedometers through the hinges on a slant R40 (of course never on the R68's). You may be able to see it better if you peer through the gap between the door and the cab wall behind where the T/O sits.
Thanks for the tip. Do you know if it works on R-42's also?
Maybe, some R40M's are popping up on the Q diamond and on the N line recently so if you can do the same on these cars, it should be no problem on the R42, either.
Loads of power outages, roads are impassible here in Nassau county. The whiteout continues, as the storm more or less sits off the coast and LI is slammed. 6 inches on the ground now.
I'm predicting 8-10 inches before all is said and done, Suffolk could see a foot.
Meanwhile, the NWS is still at 2-3 inches.
Yeah right!
Also, lots of storm related subway delays, on above ground lines.
Also just to add, we've had quite a bit of thundersnow, seen quite a few flashes of lightning since 4pm.
Thanks for the observation, John. On the 8:28 report on WCBS, I'll quote my weatherwatcher, "John from Sea Cliff." Next stops, Locust Valley, Mill Neck (!), Oyster Bay.
Yes, I was listening! Thanks!!!
Heh. I don't get to work a good-old-fashioned snow storm too often, being part-time. But the "stars" aligned well today.
Here in suburban Boston, 2-4 so far, and it's coming down hard.
On topic, I have a friend who just rode AMTRAK from NYC to BOS, and had no problems. It's WEATHERPROFF! :-)
Purple banana for sections west of Albany - 17.4 inches here in Voorheesville, out near Fonda/Fultonville, 28.2 ... record setter for the Smallbany area, looks like hell HAS frozen over. Bruno's roasting his OWN chestnuts. :)
I have plenty of snow right here in Hastings-on-Hudson. I have around nine inches on the ground at this time. I'll have a more accurate measurement in the morning.
#3 West End Jeff
Timing is everything, and to think that your article in the BERA Tripper is coming out soon too >G<.
It's out already... for members, at least... on the BERA Members Only Page.
Interesting and informative article, thanks Todd.
Peace,
ANDEE
In Jersey City, we only had about 4 inches, but as soon as I entered Fort Lee to cross the GWB, it shot up to 8 to 10 when I arrived home. Lots of downed trees in the Northern Bronx.
Thanks, H. I heard an NYC DoT guy on WCBS last evening saying that The Bronx had "two to ten" depending on what part of the boro you were in.
Sounds like it was interesting night, weatherwise. I realized after you were off the air I could have tuned in because you were on until 11:08, but didn't think of it until it was too late.
You can catch me next week, Mon & Tue, 5-11am and 4-8pm. There should be some pre-sunrise and post-sunset listening in there for your somewhere!
And thanks to all the SubTalkers who provided snowfall observations which I got on the air. It really helped localize the reports.
It was a lot of fun listening and reading SubTalk as it was going on....and no one realized that the meteorologists for the evening were all railfans too.....
Hey Todd...I should have chimed in too :)
Subtalker from Cali in NY for the holidays!!!
I can hear it now, "Jeremy from San Francisco reports no snow on the ground... and the Market Street/F-Line is on or close to schedule."
Well, maybe on KCBS.
Around Bedford Park I would say around 7".
Peace,
ANDEE
John, the way you're always knocking the people of Sea Cliff, are you sure you want to thank Todd for associating you as one of them to the thousands of WCBS listeners????? :)
Ooops, you skipped Glen Street and Glen Cove.......
Too bad they closed Mill Neck, that was an unusual station. I guess it's still a police station.
It was the rare OB express :-)
I used to live in Roslyn Heights (my closest station was Albertson), so OB was my train through jr. and sr. high school.
More snow observations? Let me know and I'll credit your name on the air on WCBS 880 -- I'm on live until 11:08 this evening. They bagged the usual 8pm start of Weather Channel remote reports in favor of Criag & me -- the "local" meteorologists.
Well right now I'm in Bellport. There's only about an inch on the ground but it only started about 1 1/2 hours ago, and it's coming down very very heavy and with a lot of wind. I went outside and really got pelted!
Well right now I'm in Bellport. There's only about an inch on the ground but it only started about 1 1/2 hours ago, and it's coming down very very heavy and with a lot of wind. I went outside and really got pelted!
I'm not too far from you, in Medford, and right now I'd say there are maybe two inches on the ground, but it's coming down like crazy.
Yeah, it definitely doubled since I posted that!
10:39pm West Babylon
I just got in from clearing one of the walks, looks to be a good 4 inches on the ground, the snow's like cement. I heard ambulance music in the air while out there.
wayne
You guys have it pretty good -- at least so far. 10 inches in Rockville Centre as of about 11 PM. I was shoveling for an hour -- an inch fell while I was out there!
CG
Todd:
In Oceanside, about 4 inches at 9:00 PM - but very windy with wet, blowing snow making driving hazardous, and very poor visibility.
Andy
Thanks, Andy, and thanks for riding the LIRR :-)
The next stop will be Island Park...
(Your report will be on at 9:08.)
Hey Todd, I heard my Bellport one a little after 9:00.
I guess the Montauk Express stopped at Bellport for once.
Pretty cool, I guess won't be listening to that "other" news channel anymore.
Yeah, too bad it doesn's top at Blue Point any more :0-)
tg
Yeah, too bad it doesn's top at Blue Point any more
You're REALLY dating yourself!
Well, I vaguely remember Landia :-)
Landia, Wow I only know that one from maps!
I guess Bellport's Station did luck out better than Blue Point, or more recently, Center Moriches.
I remember Landia too, and South Farmingdale (one sign, 6 light posts), and Springfield Gardens, and Bellaire...and even Hillside.
wayne
I don't remember Hillside in operation, though my father has told me about it... he rode the Hempstead train every day to go to college at Hofstra in the early 50s.
I recall the shells of the platforms before the new Hillside facility was built.
Thanks for your report... it's coming up now at 10:48.
Thank you, Todd!
Hillside's station building is still standing. The eastbound platforms are gone (maybe the stumps are still there), but more remains of the westbound side. Going back to '67 or so, it wasn't much more than a rush hour stop even then.
wayne
Did you catch that, Wayne? I said, "here's his SLANT on the snow..." An inside joke just for SubTalkers!
Yep, gotcha.
Somehow I don't think there are many Shovelnoses out tonight, unless there are some out on the "N" and maybe the lonely one on the "W".
They're sleeping snow sculptures in Coney Island Yard.
wayne
I remember riding by the abandoned Springfield Gardens until about 10 years ago or so. I have a photo from when they were tearing it down.
I remember riding by the abandoned Springfield Gardens until about 10 years ago or so. I have a photo from when they were tearing it down.
All that remains today is a wide space between the tracks and a rusted train-stop sign.
Oh, Wayne, I'm dating myself but I actually remember being on trains that stopped at Union Hall St and the underground Woodhaven Station!!
I recall the same things (Woodhaven & Union Hall St. stations). Back in 1976 I believe, I was going to night school in Hempstead. I had jury duty in Brooklyn one time, so one night I made sure to board at Union Hall to get over to Hempstead. Nice, that station. "Plain", uh, maybe but the location was the key. Deep in the heart of the good ol' Jamaica shopping district. And I the el was still running then, so the setting was complete. And it was a cold brisk winter night, to boot....could see and hear the elevated trains passing over the Avenue as I waited on my own platform a few blocks across. Always liked being around adjacent parallel elevated electric passenger train lines.
Woodhaven I remember also. Great urban station. I didn't manage to board a train from there but kept track of the three or four trains that actually stopped there. Something about the Woodhaven design...the lights gave it a subdued, secluded air. It seemed unlike most other underground passenger rail station platforms. Definitely "rapid-transitish" streamlined, looking optimistically towards the future from a 1940s' standpoint. I have a schedule from 1950; lots of trains stopping there. Damned malls and whatnot. They really screwed it up for places like Woodhaven and Jamaica. Given my druthers, I'd rather do my shopping under the comforting shadows of an el. Like 86th Street in Bensonhurst. Ahem.
I think I like the Brooklyn-Jamaica LIRR branch the best. It seems underappreciated. One long stretch of in-town high speed two tracked grade separated right of way. Probably the fastest commuter trains within the city limits. Yet it gets no respect, relatively speaking.
Those louts shoulda NEVER banned steam locomotives within the Brooklyn city limits. Screwed us up badly.
Damned malls and whatnot. They really screwed it up for places like Woodhaven and Jamaica.
It was the closing of the Rockaway branch that doomed the Woodhaven station on the Atlantic Avenue line. Without the transfers to and from the Rockaway line, there wasn't enough patronage to make the station worthwhile. Neighborhood change didn't make much of a difference.
I have never seen a photo of the underground Woodhaven station. Was it tiled? What kind of signage did it have, was it tiled signs like the subway, or metal signs attatched to the walls.
The Woodhaven station looks something like an IND station. It is tiled in the 1960's style.
Check out Joe Brennan's take on Woodhaven.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/woodhaven.html
You can still see it from the railfan window. There are still some lights in the station. It is pretty hard to see from side windows though.
You can still see it from the railfan window. There are still some lights in the station. It is pretty hard to see from side windows though.
I'll have to try it from the front one day. I've tried many times from the sides and it is next to impossible to see the station. I can't even tell when I am passing it with the speed of the train.
If you're going E/B it's right after the train crosses some switches which make noise when the train is going fast.
In addition, the sound of the train rushing through the tunnel changes slightly but noticeably when it passes Woodhaven.
Union Hall St. was actually built near the site of the original Jamaica Station. When the current station was built about 1/2 mile to the west, the residents of the area demanded an additional station (Union Hall St.) be built at what was then still the "center of town".
Note that the church in the backround of the 1878 picture above still stands (with an extention). You can see it on the north side of the tracks just west of the old Union Hall St. station
Great photo. I always look at that church with the "Jamaica Center " building next to it when I am on the train. The area around that little church sure has changed! The building next to it totally eclipses it. All the windows are boarded up also, so I'm sure it's not in that great of condition. Hopefully it is landmarked.
Eatontown, New Jersey reporting that the snow has stopped, moderate gusts of wind, 1.5" accumulation of VERY WET snow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're up for 9:28...
I appreciate all the SubTalker checking in with snow totals; it really helps me localize my reports. Early this morning when I was on of course I encouraged everyone to take the train instead of drive today :-)
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Neat! And I note that you got faxman's report in there too. Had to grab my key and go out to the truck... AM band isn't working on the radio in the house... but the truck is so old all it has is AM (and that was an option back then... FM wasn't even available). Hopefully we won't have any more of this nonsense for a while... the next century will suit me just fine :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, and Harry's next at 9:48. He's missing a fun time here in Boston while on break from BU. I'll see if I can scarf up a biggie for him in January :-)
Todd- just heard it on 880.
Thanks so much!
I made my parents listen- I suppose it is the highlight of our night.
Hope to see you up in Beantown when I get back.
Thanks again
-Harry
Absolutely!
Come by my office... right near the Kendall/MIT station of the Red Line. Maybe the Type-8s will run on the Green Line before you graduate :-)
Todd,
Brooklyn NY (On winter break from BU)
About 3-4 inches. Very heavy snow... much less windy now... seems to be slowing.
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
8 inches on the ground here in Sea Cliff, finally starting to taper off. Lots of drifts and boy is the snow heavy and wet.
The plow has come through, the road is better but the trees are all covered, tons of power outages. My power went out for half a minute, fortunately it came back on.
Now I can look forward to walking in the street for weeks. As for the non-shovelers, they will be reported to village hall, and fined accordingly.
Hey Todd ... yeah, I was surprised to hear Craig Allen this evening ... anyway, "Mark from Suffern" reports as of 9:40pm, about 6" on the ground, light snow still falling outside, light winds, temperature 29 degrees. Nice to hear you local guyz :)
--Mark
Thanks, Mark, you're on at 9:48 too.
Of course I'm "local," I'm from LI, just live in Boston. Through the magic of ISDN, I can sound like I'm in the studio!
(Is being "local" better than being "express"? Nah.)
Heh, I know that! (You're a local that's not local and like expresses better than locals :) :) But it's true, you do sound just like you're in the studio ...
Geez, this was fast turnaround! Much faster than when I call the WCBS traffic center as a cellmate. I guess it's who you know :)
Keep up the great work!
--Mark
From 600 volt SubTalk to 50,000 watt WCBS in less than a minute. That's quite a transformer :-)
I already have at least nine inches in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff
Earlier, I recieved a call that Long Beach was under water a few hours ago. My girlfriend and mother-in-law soon-to-be live out there and told me the bay is coming on in. Before I make a trip out there, is it safe to drive or use the LIRR to get out there? Or better yet, should I hire a fishing boat? LOL. Any details will be helpful fellas. Thanks.
My suggestion:wait till tomorrow!!
OK. If you insist. But if they are evacuated, where can I pick them up? My nearest guess is either Island Park or Oceanside.
If there's an evacuation, the evacuation reception center will be announced on the news. In the meantime, the following number is available for the Long Beach Fire Department:
516-431-2434 (24 HOUR INFORMATION LINE)
The official procedures for the county are:
Listen to radio stations NOAA Weather Radio, WHLI,
WBAB, WGBB or Cable TV Channel 12. There will be
specific instructions concerning evacuation areas. Listen
closely for specific instructions for your area. Evacuate
when ordered to do so. Use the designated evacuation
routes. Follow the " Coastal Evacuation Route " signs
Thanks a lot Selkirk. I don't live on Long Beach, but I can pass this info to my girl and her Mom. If anything, I'll put use to this info. I'll call them right now. Thanks again pal.
Bklyn
You're most welcome. Having a GOOD source of information that's credible is everything. Wouldn't want you depending on CNN or da Leather Channel. After all, we're north of Atlanta so we don't matter. :)
Dont get me started on the Southern Weather(?) Channel!
Just what I want to see when I'm getting a bunch of rain and wondering when it will turn to ice and snow! SOME G!@#$#$ Southern HICK telling me what happened in Atlanta yesterday! I see Philly and a vaguely moving purple line coming toward me for all of 3 seconds in the time it takes for Bubba to move across the screen so that he can tell me that the snow has stopped for now in Washington. G!@dammit MOVE! Let me see what's happening here! YOU KNOW A$$hole, where the F'ing weather is?! After that it's a good 30-40 seconds spent telling us how the people in Mississippi are going to clean up from the storm, including 3 or 4 people telling me that the tornado (which hit a trailer park, of course) sounded like a freight train, my only question to them is, EMD or GE? Then they have to tell us that it's gonna get cold down there, NO SH!T, it's called a cold front, course all them down in HOTlanta aint never seen this stuff, their brains are so cooked, it aint funny. Finally they wrap up with the Pacific, which seems to be covered in the same method of the North East, pick one city and cover it, this time it was Seattle, where it's raining, NO F stupid! Welcome to the earth bubba, were you friggin born yesterday?!
The scary thing is that the Atlantic City public access channel almost had better weather coverage than the Weather Channel, the data seemed to be more up to date than the Weather(?) channel.
Heh. Getting the pizza pan on the roof cured me of the "Cracker Channel" ... they COULD have used the display capabilities in the DirecTV receiver to superimpose "your local forecast" and there IS the means to use the overlay to do the radar nonsense that people on cable see. But they went OUT of their way to make themselves COMPLETELY useless on satellite. Then again, I'm a certified Animation and Mouse School (AMS) Meaty-urologist myself and have many friends at NOAA that allow me access to pasrts of noaa.gov that even Uncle Todd can't get at, so I just do my own weather forecasts and simulations from the raw data and use the computer in Omaha to do the compilations. I tend to get it right FAR more often than the storms center, so I certainly don't need those guys in Hotlanta at all.
I was AMAZED though at how WRONG the models for THIS storm were until early this morning. This one was quite the surprise, though we all knew the trajectories and energy flows were going to be a biggie. Still, this one exceeded everyone's expectations up here. When I went to bed last night, I pinned it down to 12-14 inches. We got double that. Dunno WHAT the Cracker Channel predicted, nor do I care. I don't live in Atlanta. :)
I always found those "Coastal Evacuation Route" signs a bit odd. In the case of Long Beach, there's only 3 ways off that Island to begin with! (well, 4 if you count the LIRR -- but they're not such a great choice if you've got all of your worldly possesions in tow)
True, but then again one needs to be mindful of priorities. Worldly possessions are kinda useless if you die. And living on sea shoals is pretty risky. I know as pretty as they are and romantic, I wouldn't. When I worked for the state, one of the things I was involved in was the Emergency Alert System (EAS, which replaced the "Emergency Broadcasting System" or "Conelrad") and its formation representing New York State when I was at the PSC. I got steeped in FEMA stuff and one of the things we needed to be concerned with was "Tsunami" ... the thought of a 200 foot high wave crashing into the shore is one of the comforts of living way upstate in the high hills. Might get my feet wet at worst. Then again, just measured 32 inches of snow and it's STILL coming down. Hmm. :)
I guess that's what convinced me to install motor-generator sets (to keep EMP events to a minimum) and my trusty old Allis-Chalmers is sucking diesel out of a 1000 gallon tank right now while most everyone else around here is burning wood in the dark right now. But for what it's worth, if ya gotta go, that's how you get there. I'd bet the LIRR wasn't running out there tonight.
todd
west west of newark in union nj looks like it stopped. about 3 to 4 inch. still getting a little wind gusts
alan
I suggest trying to call Long Beach city hall. Some parts of Long Beach are very susceptible to flooding, other parts don't flood at all. I believe they have a pretty set procedure of setting up "evacuation centers" if they're needed. Also, most of the houses in the flood areas are about 6 or so feet off the ground. Probably some very wet roads and flooded garages, but I don't think its anything more than your ordinary extraordinary flood down there.
CG
Loads of power outages, roads are impassible here in Nassau county. The whiteout continues, as the storm more or less sits off the coast and LI is slammed. 6 inches on the ground now.
I'm predicting 8-10 inches before all is said and done, Suffolk could see a foot.
Gee... it isn't snowing *here*. We have cold temperature in the teens, but that is *good* weather out here.
We grilled our Christmas steaks on an out-door grill. (We give our cooks Christmas off, and do the cooking ourselves.) One of the monks was bundled up like Nanook of the North and running the grill in the dark, with just the light of the coals flickering around the steaks.
But boy... were they ever good!
Enjoy your storm!
Merry Christmas and a Happy Football...
Elias
Yeah, brings me to a tasty idea, a nice pig roast on a grill. I'm addicted to pork, so....
At least NYC didn't get hit as hard as upstate. Although we got hit with like 4 or 5 inches in 4 hours, lets say it kept going we would of had a major snowstorm. I think Upstate got 20+ inches of snow and it is STILL snowing I believe. Over 5000 people lost power in Westchester and thousands more in New Jersey as well, they always seem to lose power in bad weather before everyine else. Its just bad out ther, I went out for 10 minutes and my boots on the outside were wet very quickly , my hat was covered in snow amd its was basically 0 visibility out there, by foot or vehicle.
As of 4:35 São Paulo time, it´s sunny, about 25 degrees C, and I´m wearing shorts with the window wide open while typing this. Tomorrow, I´ll be heading to the beach where I´ll will spend New Years.
See y´all later, suckas :-)
-Rob from São Paulo
Ahh, go jump off a cliff. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Cliff-diving? Hmmmmm...the weather is WARM enough to do it... :-)
The least you can do now is send us a warm front .....
--Mark
Rode for the first time yesterday AM. Took 8:38 from Long Beach. Went as far as Jamaica, then reversed to Long Beach on M-1.
We were allowed to watch the engineer charge up and brake test. Nice computer screen, when it breaks, it's going to be ugly. When we were ready to go, the engineer said he had to shut door and leave shade up. Boo! No more railfan window, even though there is a seat and window up front. Pretty smooth ride, but slower than normal between Island Park and Oceanside. I liked the computer generated announcements and displays. Chimes for the doors instead of buzzers. Doors between cars very easy to open and close, and the driver's consoles close off so you can walk through the whole train.
Are two trains sets running now? We were in 7009-7014, six car train. Where are 7001-7008?
We all know how packed both the East and West Side IRT lines are within Manhattan, but I was curious--does anybody have numbers or a ranking of the volume of passengers that use the outer branches (ie. White Plains Rd, Jerome, New Lots, Nostrand)??????? Tony
Between 250,000-500,000 people ride the 7, I know.
For a fresh look at something new and different!
1) The IRT (7) line is rerouted with new elevated structure continuing along Roosevelt avenue and then west to the existing Steinway Tunnel along Hunters Point Blvd. The existing el on Queens Boulevard is torn down.
2) A new Subway line is constructed along western Queens Boulevard, serving the (V) train from the 53rd Street Tunnel, and the (Q) and (W) Trains from the 60th Street Tunnel
3) The new line rejoins the existing Queensboro Line at Woodhaven Blvd, which remains an express stop, with the addition of the new Queens Blvd tracks on the outside of the existing platforms, where accomodations already exist for tracks.
4) The (V) Train will continue along the present Queens Blvd line on a new pair of tracks to Continential Avenue.
5) The (Q) and (W) trains will follow Woodhaven Blvd with the (Q) bending east on Metropolitian Avenue to terminate between Continential and 72nd Avenues on Metropolitain
6) The (W) Train will continue along the old LIRR ROW and connect with and replace the existing service to the Rockaways.
7) The (R) Train will be removed from the 60th Street tunnel and be rerouted through the 63rd Street Tunnel, which becomes possible since no trains will use 57th Street as a Terminal. The (R) train will run local all the way to 179th Street.
8) the (GG) train will return to the old Queensboro Line to Continential Avenue. Local Passengers west of Roosevelt avenue will that the (GG) to Queens Plaza if they wish to change to the (E) or they may take the (R) to 21st St Queensbridge if they wish to change to the (F).
In case you cannot picture all of this in your mind, I have gone through the trouble of doing it for you! What the heck.... It's Christmas!
Elias
Cool map, Elias and I like your new route of the Q, V and W to make the G train riders feel much happier now that the V is separated from the main QB line 8-). Yes, the Hillside express would make a grand return!
How about extending the E and the J/Z to eastern or southern Queens. How about making the 7 a four track el line [with upgraded Redbirds :-)] to make it more interesting. You have some good plans going here.
>>"6) The (W) Train will continue along the old LIRR ROW and connect with and replace the existing service to the Rockaways."<<
I know you did this to make all A's go to Lefferts only but I would still keep some A's running to the Rockaways, it makes the line more interesting. If that AirTrain were never built, my suggestion would be to create a new JFK express from Manhattan, going via the current route of the new W but nonstop to a redesigned Howard beach station with double platforms running via the old LIRR ROW and terminating in the middle tracks w/a scissor switch so no relay is necessary.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
I know you did this to make all A's go to Lefferts only but I would still keep some A's
Actually the (A) trains are extended along Liberty Avenue to Supthin Blvd, and then bend north to pick up the LIRR Jamaica Station and then terminate against the Hillside Avenue line.
Much of the planning of these changes are intended to interlock with other plans, such as the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway. It is this service that would extend along Jamaica Avenue to the County Lion. The Metroploitan-Ninth Avenue Subway will cover Union Turnpike to the Lion, and these two lines render a Hillside extension redundant. I am of the opinion that the Queensboro lines are already saturated and cannot accomodate the additional traffic.
As far as the Fulton, the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway captures the local track past Euclid through 76th Street to Cross Bay Blvd. I would have the (E) running express on the Fulton following this Pitkin routing and then running on Linden Blvd to the Lion.
The extension of the (7) beyond its new connection with the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway at Northern Boulevard is a moot point, the new line will follow Northern to the Lion, and a supr (part of the Metropolitan-Ninth Avenue Subway) will break off of the Northern Blvd route at Shea Stadium and go into the Whitestone neighborhood on a more direct route.
Thanks for your comments. I love it when *somebody* looks at my work.
Elias
No problem, I'm always eager to look at other Subtalkers thoughts and ideas. I love writing suggestions and drawing maps in my notebook seeing what expansions/extensions could be made to improve the system. Its good you focused on Queens b/c they really need more subway lines, especially in eastern Queens.
what about Brooklyn and The Bronx, they need more lines too?
The Bronx needs a Cross Bronx Subway - extend the 'D' to Co-op City. Make interchange possible with the other lines that it crosses. Bring in the '6' to Co-op City also. Create a terminal a la Jamaica Center - one service over the other.
The Bronx needs a Cross Bronx Subway - extend the 'D' to Co-op City. Make interchange possible with the other lines that it crosses.
The (D) DOES NOT need to be extended to CoOp City. It is ALREADY FULL!
My Fifth Avenue Subway plan has a new two track line that also follows Grand Concourse (Without ANY stops between 161st Street and Bedford Park) but then jogs a bit to the west, makes a trasfer stop with the (4) and tne turns east along Gun Hill Road to CoOp City. As part of the Fifth Avenue Subway it is a computer controlled line with 80 mph express runs.
Leaving Bedford Park Blvd (southbound) it makes 161st Street and then 59th Street as its only stops.
So why would you want to ditz with that (D) train, I'll never know!
Elias
The "D" extension will make matters easier for persons using the IRT Lines.. and who travels within the Bronx.
N Broadway Line
The extension that I proposed makes all of the same connections with the same IRT lines, and the (4) Jerome Avenue line as well, which a (D) extension would not do.
Any extension of the (D) just puts more people on an already over crowded train. A new Fifth Avenue Express, as I have drawn it accomodates all of the people from CoOp-City and from varrious connecting lines, and runs express on two new tracks under the concourse, and then express to 59th Street.
Elias
Any extension of the (D) just puts more people on an already over crowded train.
The number of D trains can be increased - at least in theory.
Along its route a maximum of 8tph on the D shares trackage with either 7tph (total 15tph) on the B or 15tph on the A (total 23 tph). There should be room for a further 7tph or a 87½% increase in D train service. If the trains are crowded it seems more to do with economics than capacity.
There should be room for a further 7tph or a 87½% increase in D train service. If the trains are crowded it seems more to do with economics than capacity.
Ah..Hem... maybe so.... BUT WHAT WILL THESE TRAINS DO AT THE OTHER END OF THEIR RUNS!? The Brighton and the West End already have two services each on them, and riders out there *like* having the choice of two different routes.
Keep the *whole* line, the whole *system* in balance when making plans.
: ) Elias
"The number of D trains can be increased - at least in theory.
Along its route a maximum of 8tph on the D shares trackage with either 7tph (total 15tph) on the B or 15tph on the A (total 23 tph). There should be room for a further 7tph or a 87½% increase in D train service. If the trains are crowded it seems more to do with economics than capacity."
I think the "D" can do it, but I do see some problem along the way... Not unless they build a Third Avenue Line coming out of second Avenue from Manhattan.. It will either dead end at White Plains Road, or continue to Co-op City, visa versa.
Without this second option, people will almost automatically choose the faster route, which would be the D over the 2/5. And with that in the way, it could definately present problems for D riders using the line south from there.
N Bwy
yeah.. but you talking about the cost of building an entirely difference system, and I am not.
N Broadway Line
Yes, absolutely! An entirely NEW SYSTEM.
To get the best return on your money you do need a new system, one that can be computer controled, run with high speed trains that do not weave in and out with heritage equipment and lines.
Extending already over burdened lines will create bottlenecks. Most crossings are already running at maximum TPH. The merge and diverge that goes on also slows the lines down.
I *am* proposing a *new* system (does anybody have a good three letter acronym for it~ IRT, BMT, IND and......???), with three major trunk routes: Myrtle-Fifth Avenue; Metroploitan-Ninth Avenue; and the 23rd Street-Nostrand/Flatbush Line. Trains from these lines do not connect with trains from the other three systems (Except for the Fulton Street Local, where the local track is completely captured and cut-off from the existing IND service which will remain on the express tracks.)
Yup, it will cost, but I still think that it does need to be done, so move that Joe Bruno character to Queens, and let him build his trains there where they are needed, instead of in Saratoga Park!
Elias
you make a good point.. But your talking dollars... and right now, that's isn't going to happen.. Sorry.
N Bwy
Yup. mucho bigo bucks!
But with REPUBLICANS in office, maybe we could interest PRIVATE ENTERPRISE to build it. Let some company have the franchise, issue some bonds, and go to town. I have been thinking of that a little. The routes would be a little different. The fares would be much higher and there would be no free transfers.
I'm thinking of a cash fare of $5.00 to any station on the route.
A credit card fare of $4.00 to any station on the route.
Fare Card fares work on a two zone system: $4.00 to or from outlying areas, and $2.00 to or from the city zone (About 10 miles from WTC). A second swipe upon exit verifies the lower fare. Fare cards are sold in $20, $50, $100 and $200 denominations. Cards reported as stollen can be conficated by turnstiles, and reunited with their registered owners. Multilpe entries are permited with this type of card. Multiple cards may be issued on a family or company account.
A Commuter Fare is the lowest fare, sold on a weekly, 10 trip, monthly, or 60 trip basis: It is only good at the two stations specified when it is first purchased, your account will be billed a $4.00 fare if used at a different station, in which case a PIN number is required, or the card is confiscated as stollen. (To be reissued to the rightful owner as quickly as possible.) This type of card cannot be shared, and is not good for multiple entries.
: ) Elias
HOW MUCH WILL IT COST????? SIR????? BRING ME SOME DOLLAR FIGURES!!! OTHERWISE!!! PLEASE STOP PUSHING THESE PLANS ON ME!!!!
"and from varrious connecting lines, and runs express on two new tracks under the concourse, and then express to 59th Street"
OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!! WHAT ABOUT WEBSTER OR THIRD AVS... Where no TRAIN SERVICE EXIST!!! hmmm... I'm getting tired.. please.. I HAD ENOUGH!!!
N Bwy
OH MY GOD!! OH MY GOD!!! WHAT ABOUT WEBSTER OR THIRD AVS... Where no TRAIN SERVICE EXIST!!! hmmm... I'm getting tired.. please.. I HAD ENOUGH!!!
Hehehehe.....
I presumed a new Third Avenue service as part of the Second Avenue Subway, and so did not include it with other plans.
Elias
My first time posting so hello all...I've been reading all your posts for a while though...
I like your ideas for the line in the Bronx hope you don't mind if I make a few suggestions.
- space the stations on Gun hill rd out a lil...move the station at bronxwood ave over a couple blocks to between paulding and laconia avenues...it's like 2 blocks from there to Bronxwood and one block in the other direction to boston road. nix the boston road station
-leave sexton place-gun hill rd station the way it is or move it to the other end of the block and it would be called dewitt place-gun hill road you could still transfer to the 5 there and it's one block to eastchester road in one direction from there and three short blocks to eastchester road and gun hill. nix the eastchester station
the rest of the line is cool but you might want to extend the line by one or two stops into section 5 say stopping at einstein loop and then earhart lane or erskine place
it would look something like this
Earhart Ln-Erskine Pl
\
Einstein Loop East
\
Bartow Ave-Co-op City Blvd(Bay Plaza Sopping center)
\
Bartow Ave-Asch Loop(alcott place)
\
Bartow Ave-Gunther Av
/
Dewitt Place-E. Gun Hill Rd. transfer to the 5
/
Paulding Ave-Laconia Ave(E.Gun Hill Rd)
/
White Plains Rd.-E. Gun Hill Rd transfer to the 2
/
the remainder of the line as before
Hi Jiggy3055
Welcome to Subtalk.
I was placing stations at bigger cross streets, but you tell me that this is not the right thing. Maybe you are right, maybe in the Bronx you want your stations closer to the apartment houses! Though of course, the busses run on the bigger streets to feed the subway.
I was never all that familiar with the Bronx, and now that I live in NORTH DAKOTA, it will be a cold day in.... before a subway train stops here...... SAY! IT *IS* A COLD DAY! What the heck!
Anyway... my trains are LONGER than your trains!
: ) Elias
Welcome to SubTalk, Jiggy3055. I already did enough posts on this thread so I won't say anything on the subject[don't feel offended], just wanted to welcome you.
LOL I know...But thanx!( why would I feel offended?)
I figured as much I was just bored and needed a project...lol
I LOVE THE "D" idea too! because it's more rational than building an entirely new system. Hopefully they decide to put it above ground... since putting it below ground will be cost prohibited.
N Bwy Line
That's true, Brooklyn and the Bronx could sure use some new lines but Queens is large yet it doesn't have as much subway lines as it should have.
Hi.
Interesting concept but there's a few problems with it.
(1) The IRT viaduct on Queens Blvd is considered one of the most beautiful in the city and it may be landmarked. It was also recently completely rebuilt. Its not likely that it will ever be torn down.
(2) Roosevelt Avenue ends at Queens Boulevard. The street that continues beyond Queens Boulevard is called Greenpoint Avenue and it is much narrower than Roosevelt Avenue. Besides, you will never be able to build el trackwork in this day and age.
I haven't looked closely yet at Hunterspoint on a map, but does this need to be a replacement? Can the QB el and the new Hunterspoint both be running and handle the increased Queens/midtown load, now that the 63rd/ESA are opening?
Besides, you will never be able to build el trackwork in this day and age.
This is not so. You will NEVER build another steel el such as you are thinking of. but elevated transit lines can and will be built. You build them on slender, graceful concrete columns, with concrte trackways. They will be virtually silent in operation (Same as LIRR elevated lines such as in Merrick).
Elias
Well, if that's the case, there should be no problem rebuilding the 2nd Avenue El ASAP and everyone should stop wasting time and money on a subway line.
Aren't most LIRR elevated lines actually constructed on dirt berms? That would account for the silent operations (which are not silent at any rate).
Aren't most LIRR elevated lines actually constructed on dirt berms? That would account for the silent operations (which are not silent at any rate).
Yes they are, but...
where people interface with them, through downtown villiages, they are on concrete risers, and I have never heard of any noise complaints all of the time I lived on Long Island. You cannot hear those things passing more than 100' away, and they run at 80 mph.
Elias
That's not exactly true. I live three blocks from the Far Rockaway LIRR line as it passes through Cedarhurst and its plenty loud. I just got used to it. Besides, I love the sounds of passing trains...
Why not a rubber tired line?
That's not exactly true. I live three blocks from the Far Rockaway LIRR line as it passes through Cedarhurst and its plenty loud.
Far Rockaway is a far cry from Merrick.
We are takling of newer construction, it is hardly fare to compare old structures. (It *is* an old sturcture, isn't it? ~ Built the same time as the Subway Lions out there....)
Elias
"it is hardly fare"
Don't you mean FAIR? See where that over-abundance of subway-related thoughts gets you?
I think he meant Cedarhurst, which is actually on the ground, not a structure.
Or BART in San Francisco/Oakland.
(1) The IRT viaduct on Queens Blvd is considered one of the most beautiful in the city and it may be landmarked. It was also recently completely rebuilt. Its not likely that it will ever be torn down.
All I remember of the viaduct is how much of a disaster it was to try to drive on Queens Boulevard in and around that structure.
If the structure is as good as you say it is, then no doubt the new line can run on it until it ducks underground for the rest of its run. (Although *that* does make a difficulty in connecting the (V) train to it.)
The puropse of moving the (7) train off of it was to get rid of those sharp curves around the Queesnboro Bridge. When the line was built, it was supposed to be a bridge line, but when that did not work out, they contrived a connection to the Steinway Tunnel (which was designed for streetcars anyway) which is tortous, noisy and slow. Since the (7) is such an important run, and because Queens Plaza is no longer the center of the eastern world, it makes sense to cut off that noisome loop, and shorten the running times.
: ) Elias
There was an Regional Planning Association plan in the '80s that would have kept the 7 on the Queens Boulevard viaduct all the way to Sunnyside yards, and then along a cutoff to the Steinway Tunnel. That avoids the problem of building an el on Greenpoint Avenue. It would still be possible to have a subway under Queens Boulevard, although that new 39th Street station would probably not be needed.
Both the RPA plan and this plan end the transfer between the Flushing and Astoria lines at Queensboro Plaza, which I think is a major consideration. Also, unless I'm missing something, I don't see a track connection of any kind left between the Flushing line and the rest of the system.
Yes with the Queensboro connection gone, the seven line would have re connect to the IND near the Sunny Side Yard cut out of the current F line just east of Queensbridge 21st station. That or to the "G" near Court St. Or knock a hole in the wall under 42nd St between Fifth ave and Sixth Ave.
avid
I don't want the #7 line to be gone.. even though I hate how those passengers invade my train at Queensboro plaza.
N Broadway Line
Humph... hadn't thought of that...
With the extension to Northern Boulevard, and the new loop there, it should be a simple matter to connect up to the Northern Boulevard line.
It can also connect to the 14th Street and 23rd Street Subways at Javits Center. So really, it gets good connections at both ends albeit to B division lines in all cases.
Elias
There are a lot of good things in the plan - like adding capacity in the Queens Boulevard corridor and reducing travel time to the Rockaways. Perhaps rerouting the 7 train should be considered somewhat separately - doing that is really a distinct project that probably has lower priority than the first two issues I mentioned.
I'm not sure, but it seems that you are putting everything at Queensboro Plaza underground. I wonder if that is really worth the cost - it might be fine to leave the Astoria route on the elevated structure through that area.
My plan *does* leave the Astoria Route on the bridge, and in fact moves the (Q) and (W) Routes to the bridge structure too, using the platform space vacated by the (7), and would probably remain elevated across the sunnyside yards before seeking the tunnel or possibly remaining on the vacated (7) viaduct.
Elias
While your plan sounds good, I am a little sketchy about moving the 7 from the Queens Blvd portion.
I have a plan on what I would do with the Astoria line; which is extend it to LaGuardia, create a new line or keep the W via Astoria to run with the N. 2 ideas:
Possibly turn the Astoria el into a 4 track subway after Queensboro Plaza and the N would run express weekdays [maybe weekends if necessary] while the new line [lets call it Y] and would run local to LaGuardia. Weekends N's run local.
(N) stops *=new stops
----------
Queensboro Plaza
Astoria Blvd
Ditmars Blvd[would be relocated]
82 St*
LaGuardia Airport*
"Y" stops
----------
Queensboro Plaza
39 Av
36 Av
Broadway
30 Av
Astoria Blvd
Ditmars Blvd[would be relocated]
Steinway St*
46 St*
71 St*
77 St*
82 St*
LaGuardia Airport*
Or if the el is kept, make it a 3 track underground but would have to make a sharp 90 degree turn via Ditmars Blvd which may lead to a relocation of the Ditmars Blvd stop and let N's run express in the peak direction and would follow the same stops mentioned above.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Your plan is full of NIMBYs....
Well, whose plan isn't?
Anyway, I'd not extend or mess with the Astoria... ore NIMBYs per square inch... they don't want new service, they already *have* service, and they don't want to share it with others.
As far as LAG goes, forgetaboutthesubways....
LIRR is better equiped to handle this, both from NYP and soon from GCT (and even from WTC if my plan bears fruits)... via the existing Hell Gate ramp and then onto new el structure over GCP. No neighborhoods are touched, and better, direct service from the major NYC transportation hubs. Only two miles of new el structure are required, with no ROW/NIMBY issues.
Subway services into new areas IMHO require new lions tunnels and trunks.
Elias
Well, it was worth taking a shot at :-(. Your plan for extra service on Queens Blvd and the Rockaways would go through but on the 7, people are NOT going to stand for it. Sheesh, these NIMBY's have to ruin a lot of our proposals but even if it would probably be successful its their loss :-\.
My plan for the (7) might not be as troublesome as that. There are three major elements.
1) an extension of the (7) to a new Northern Boulevard loop... The main reason for this is to build a better terminal with a greater turn around capacity. The (7) *can* handle more trainsets, if we could turn them faster. The new construction is underground, not disruptive to surface structure; it *is* serving the people who will see the line, rather than serving new people that will not be coming to your neighborhood.
2) an extension of the (7) to Javitts Center, same reason: Faster Turn-arounds! It also gives the (7)ites an additonal Manhattan destination, putting more teeth in *their* lion.
3) The elimination of several sharp (slow) turns, and the lopping off of several stops on the (7) route. Since the stops to be eliminated will be picked up by a new service the people in this are are not affected. A new track (under or above) Greenpoint Avenue, runs only a few blocks before it is in an industral neighborhood (sans NIMBYs), where one or two new satations again provide new service to the local neighborhood or to businesses in the area.
Somehow I do not see the (7)ites complaining about these improvements... I would have thought there might be more complaint on the 'virgin' parts of Queens Boulevard even thought we all know that that correidor needs more service... or along Woodhaven Blvd, the NIMBYs might ought shout those whose lot in life would be improved by said new service.... especially since those trains will also be serving people who live far (rock)away from their neighborhoods.
Elias
That's a good idea to build loop terminals at Northern Blvd & at Javits Center since 7's frequently back up and at times bunches up or produces gaps. Since Main St was built underground it was meant to go further east in Queens so your loop plan at Northern would make sense.
Speaking of new lines. Is it just new paint, or are they expanding the #7 structure west of the Queens Plaza station. It appears they doubled the width of the structure on the eastern side as it crosses over the Queensboro Bridge-Tompson Ave. (upper level) roadway.
"While your plan sounds good, I am a little sketchy about moving the 7 from the Queens Blvd portion."
I agree.. (that connection b/t the N/W and #7 is a very important connection at Queensboro plaza) at least the "7" local.. of which the express will use the shorter stretch.
"I have a plan on what I would do with the Astoria line; which is extend it to LaGuardia, create a new line or keep the W via Astoria to run with the N. 2 ideas:
Possibly turn the Astoria el into a 4 track subway after Queensboro Plaza and the N would run express weekdays [maybe weekends if necessary] while the new line [lets call it Y] and would run local to LaGuardia. Weekends N's run local."
I would go even further by building an extension to the Bronx and possibly taking over the Dyre Avenue terminus from the #5. It will make a connection with the #6, 2/5 at 180th Street and the "D", if extended, at Gun Hill Road.
N Broadway Line
But then the N and W will probably become too long. BUT an interesting thing is that it would be the first BMT line to go to the Bronx so it would be pretty cool. My question to you is where would the tunnel from Astoria lead to in the Bronx what street would it run under in the Bronx to connect to E 180 St and to Gun Hill if you're extending the D? Its fun when you look at all of these proposals and see how the system could be expanded.
In Queens.. it will most likely duck into the street via 31st Street before it reaches the Con Ed plant. Once in the bronx, it will take over the Old Westchester/Boston Railroad tracks up until Dyre avenue. Meanwhile, the #5 will become the White Plains Road express.. and those merging problems will be a thing of the past.
Whether people will use this new service, remains to be seen. But I think you will be encouraging a new clientele who travels from Queens to the Bronx regularly.
N Bwy
The 5 is already the WPR express unless you're thinking of extending it to Gun Hill Rd which is a good idea but you really can't do that north of GH Rd unless it goes back to 241 St, which won't happen anytime soon. So it looks like the N would run non-stop to E 180 St then would run via the Dyre Av 5 line to Dyre, while it would bring a new influx of Queens-Bronx riders, it should be separate platfroms and the middle tracks should be utilized for the N to run on. But then you have to make the tracks be compatible with IRT & IND/BMT standards which shouldn't be too hard and possibly make modifications to platform length.
Since you brought up a Queens-Bronx subway, how about creating a Main St subway in Queens. It could run from Jamaica (168 St) mainly via the Q44 route via Main St, Union St into the Bronx via the Whitestone(or a parallel tunnel) to Co-op City. I'm looking at ny Queens & Bronx maps at the moment to see if it should run from eastern Queens via Jamaica Av as well. It would also bring more riders to the QBx1 route as well and people would really appreciate the transit system even more and would broaden the subway in Queens.
"But then you have to make the tracks be compatible with IRT & IND/BMT standards which shouldn't be too hard and possibly make modifications to platform length."
This is simple, since provisions were already in place before the line was converted to IRT specs.
"Since you brought up a Queens-Bronx subway, how about creating a Main St subway in Queens. It could run from Jamaica (168 St) mainly via the Q44 route via Main St, Union St into the Bronx via the Whitestone(or a parallel tunnel) to Co-op City. I'm looking at ny Queens & Bronx maps at the moment to see if it should run from eastern Queens via Jamaica Av as well. It would also bring more riders to the QBx1 route as well and people would really appreciate the transit system even more and would broaden the subway in Queens."
I have not thought this through enough to give it that much consideration. But, at this day and time, it sounds a little to radical to be taken seriousily. Although I agree with you, this will be better, since it will be connected to more lines.
N Bwy lines
While all you good Queens Lines folks have me thinking (!), how about these:
1)Extend F line from 179th Street to Little Neck Parkway as per the original 1939 plan ;
2)Extend 7 service to Northern/Francis Lewis with a possible branch along Francis Lewis to 14th Avenue ;
3)Extend Rockaway Park A/S service (this would be hard but doable) from now vacant land east of B108 St west along BCD to Neponsit.
OK maybe not the Neponsit line... :-)
Now that you brought that up, extending the F east would benefit those via Hillside which would mark a return of the Hillside express but now would be extended. We did propose a eastern extension of the F via Hillside in the past but my plan called for it to be extended to Springfield Blvd with a extension futher east later on. The R and V would follow the F via Hillside local while the F is the Hillside express.
I’ve been pondering this plan for a couple of days. If I may offer one way to do it (not the only possibility, for sure):
The core of the plan is the “new Queens Blvd.” line, Sunnyside-Woodhaven Blvd.-Rockaways, with a spur to 72nd Avenue in Forest Hills. This new line should be connected to the 63rd Street tunnel. Then we could have these services:
53rd Street tunnel: Handles E and F as God and the Board of Transportation intended. E and F are then expresses on original Queens Blvd. line as now.
G returns full-time as Queens Blvd. local.
60th Street tunnel: as now, handles N to Astoria (maybe W too if it runs beyond 2004) and R as Queens Blvd. local. R should probably continue at times to 179th/Hillside to allow F as express the whole way. Queensboro Plaza el stays in use, as you said; route of 7 train is a separate issue.
63rd Street tunnel: handles V and Q. Both use the new, two-track Queens Blvd. line. Q goes on spur to 72nd Avenue; V goes to Rockaways. Probably some A trains should continue offering Rockaway service.
Seems like everything would be well balanced this way, giving the best use of the three East River tunnels and plenty of capacity through Queens itself.
Your thoughts are good, but I did not even think of tying the New Queens Line into the 63rd Street tunnel. The 53rd Street Tunnel and the 60th Street tunnel both point directly to the new line, while the 63rd Street tunnel points directly to the Existing Queesboro line.
The other issue is in Broadway in Manhattan... With my plan all Broadway locals run through the 63rd Street Tunnel, while all of the express trains run through the 60th Street Tunnel.
Here is the street map:
Elias
With my plan all Broadway locals run through the 63rd Street Tunnel, while all of the express trains run through the 60th Street Tunnel.
Wouldn't it be easier running expresses thru 63rd and locals thru 60th because of the track configuration at 57/7?
That's true James, I thought about that & it would be more sensible. To Elias, maybe you should flip the lines, have the expresses use the 63 St connector via Broadway since they lead to the express tracks anyway and locals could use the 60 St tunnel. If you leave it the way you do now, people would not use a local via 63 St. In other words, if the V had ran through 63 St, the E & F would be even more jam packed than before.
To Elias, maybe you should flip the lines, have the expresses use the 63 St connector via Broadway since they lead to the express tracks anyway and locals could use the 60 St tunnel.
Yes, you are correct, we may have to re-think that part of the plan.
Elias
Just flashback to the bridge plan back in 1995 where Q's used this connection it shouldn't be that hard, typically when trains used the connection they ran express. Looks like its back to the drawing board.........
"Woodhaven Blvd.-Rockaways"
YEAH! Kill that annoying Q53!
A question to Subtalk: Would this work? I've been thinking of this Woodhaven Blvd-Rockaways system for a long time. But in my many trips through the area of Liberty and Woodhaven, I've seen that Woodhaven does not match up at all with the A line to Rockaway.
A question to Subtalk: Would this work? I've been thinking of this Woodhaven Blvd-Rockaways system for a long time. But in my many trips through the area of Liberty and Woodhaven, I've seen that Woodhaven does not match up at all with the A line to Rockaway.
Correct. The Rockaway line is on the old LIRR ROW.
My trains leave Queens Boulevard via Woodhaven Boulevard, but when it cuts through the parks and the cemetaries it jogs over to the LIRR ROW, and so is not running on Woodhaven Blvd in the Bronx but on the old LIRR ROW.
I could have run it on the old ROW all the way from Queens Blvd, but it seemed that there would be better access to the line from the more populated blvd.
Elias
I would swap N/W and 7. B division has more capacity per train anywqay + after 63rd Street tunnel connection one could divert more local traffic via V instead of R. Even more possibilities after Manhattan Bridge reopening.
Arti
Sure you will - they're putting up new box-girder structure on the "L" line north of Sutter pretty much as we speak. Now, if you want to talk about builing a new box-girder El over a residential/commercial street (like Greenpt Avenue), that's a whole nother story. Likely nobody near the proposed construction zone would stand for it.
wayne
I've always thought a 2 track viaduct down the center of a WIDE avenue would be acceptable today. Perhaps this is the way the 2nd Ave. line whould be built. Modern technology can be used to deal with the noise issues.
For the 2 Av subway, a 2 track line is acceptable if the stations are spaced about every 15 blocks but if it can be a 4 track line, it would handle more capacity and would be a better option.
All plans for a 2nd Ave. line since the 1960's have been for 2 tracks. No 4/6 track line has been proposed since 1929.
What might be a good idea would be a compromise (2-track Southern half, 4-track Northern half):
2nd Av Express:
from Montague Tunnel: Broad St, Fulton St, Chambers St, Grand St, Houston St, St Mark's Pl, 14th St, 23rd St, 34th St, 42nd St, 50th St, 57th St, 66th St, 116th St, 125th St, to the Bronx.
2nd Av Local:
from Broadway Express: 57th St, Lex/63, 66th St, 76th St, 86th St, 96th St, 106th St, 116th St, Lex/125, Lenox/125, Manhattan/125, Broadway/125.
Oooh! I have an idea! Would this work?
Rearrange {if it hasn't already been done} the J/M/Z line to use only the two west-most tracks at Chambers, and have the used-to-be loop bridge tracks be the start of the 2nd Ave line, such that the next stop north would be Grand St using the tracks behind the walls there. Is there any strange pipe or wall sitting in the way of that?
["The IRT viaduct on Queens Blvd is considered one of the most beautiful in the city and it may be landmarked. It was also recently completely rebuilt. Its not likely that it will ever be torn down."]
Here's a picture of it when it was just built.
And of course here is the live webcam picture of it now!
Was on the live web cam of Queens Blvd & 36th St and
saw a redbird going toward flushing and not two minutes later one
of the new silver #7's went past towards the city.
Ahhh! The next best thing to being there!
Whoa! I could watch that all day!
Are there any other cameras on that site where we could see trains?
Oh my goodness.. What the hell happened to the buildings...!!!
N Bwy Line
Intriguing pictures, Mr. Rosen. It's so hard to imagine so much change has went through Queens. It's a pity we see no more of those quaint little farms.. :(
They shot that right throguh the farmland! .....No NIMBYS to get in the way.
By the way, what station is that?
Cool pic, Jeff. Wow, its hard to believe how Queens changed from mostly farmland to what it is today, amazing.
I love all your ideas, it reminds me of when I was younger how I used to draw extensions all over my Hagstrom.
I was wondering if you had put all your past ideas on a web site
where you can look at all your past fantasy maps?
Or can you bring them back for those of us who are new or switched
our internet carriers and lost all of our old emails?
Thanks!
Johnny
Whoa. How many does he have?
I do have a website called Subways 2020 which has some of my stuff on it. I will rebuild and revise the site sometime next year, but at the moment I am working on a big upgrade for the Abbey website, and so it will have to wait until this project is up and runing.
Elias
Elias,
Once again, we have similar ideas! Great minds think alike!
Alan-scott
How did you do that? What program did you use in creating this map?
Can you explain the process? I`m trying to create maps like that and I need someone to explain the process to me.
Thanks
Mark
Mdlbigcat@aol.com
How did you do that? What program did you use in creating this map?
There are two different generic kinds of programs that you *could* use.
Raster Graphics (such as Microsoft Paint~ free, its on your computer now) set the bytes of information and that is that, they cannot be changed, moved or manipulated, but can be erased in total, or simpy drawn over.
I have made maps with that kind of program, but not subway maps that require tweeking as you go...
And so the other kind: Vector Graphics, which uses a mathmatical formula to plot the position of each element. Since each line, dot, text and or whatever is a discrete object, they may be continually manipulated and adjusted.
This subway map was made using vector graphics. There are many programs that employ variations of vector graphics, I use a product from Serif Software: "Serif DrawPlus 4.0". Actually they are up to 8.0 now, and the price is $89.00, but if you are not in a rush, sign up for their mailing lists, for they frequently offer the older programs (just before a new one comes out) at a real low price, I think I paid $9.95.
Or just look around the bargain bins at K-Mart or other such places. You may also find some deals on Vector Graphics programs at Tucows and other similar places.
I set up a special size page 22cm x 80cm it will drive your printer crazy, but I never print it on a printer. What I do is save it in its native format so I may play with it again lager, but I export it to a gif format for posting to a web page. Keep it under 750 pixels across, otherwise your readers will have to scroll in all directions.
Enjoy, Elias
Nice work you got there but would wanna replace the existing Rockaway Service. Do have any plans or ideas extend one those lines to the Bronx.
The replacement of Rockaway service will give the Rockaways much faster access to Manhattan, and especially Midtown Manhattan.
The (A) Train is to be extended along Liberty Avenue, and then turn north under Supthin Blvd to access Jamaica Station, and terminate at Hillside Avenue. With this additonal capibility, all (A) service will be needed on the Liberty Line.
In my plan the Fulton Street Local Service will be captured by the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway (A high speed computerized service ~ and would no longer be compatible with the IND line). Some of the present express stops will be walled off, so that only the local train will serve them, and then the (E) train [replacing the (C) service to be sent onto the Smith-Culver route] will continue along Pitkin to serve Linden Blvd to the Nassau County Lion.
Elias
>>"In my plan the Fulton Street Local Service will be captured by the Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway (A high speed computerized service ~ and would no longer be compatible with the IND line). Some of the present express stops will be walled off, so that only the local train will serve them, and then the (E) train [replacing the (C) service to be sent onto the Smith-Culver route] will continue along Pitkin to serve Linden Blvd to the Nassau County Lion."<<
I like your idea of a high speed computerized service BUT you CANNOT wall off any express stop on the Fulton line, they are all too busy to do so and I'm not so sure that would be sensible.
Will your terminal of the A lion at Hillside Ave have a physical connection to the F lion, or just a transfer point?
avid
It will be a transfer. Supthin comes in at a right angle to Hillside and ends at Hillside. Perhaps it *could* end at the LIRR, but the connection at Hillside is just so inviting, and not that much more expensive, once you started on that extension.
The (A) is a two track lion at this point but a nice four track terminal will make room for layups.
Elias
The north extension on the A is totally ignorant.. when you have people in south east Queens without subway service. I would extend it via Linden Blvd to Spring Field. Express service could be provided via the third track.
N Bwy
I say leave the A the way it is now and let it stay in the Rockaways. Extend the E to southern Queens like it was supposed to via Brewer Blvd [a better choice] or via Merrick Blvd to Green Acres [I think someone suggested this] via Brewer and nonstop via Conduit Av until making a stop at the Rosedale LIRR stop then to Green Acres.
As for a Jamaica Av subway, extend J's and Z's east to Springfiled Blvd and would be intertied to the Queens-Bronx subway via Main St; which has two lines, which would also run via Jamaica Av. Z's and one of the Main St subway lines ("X") would continue to be express via eastern Jamaica Av along with the flyover track from B'way Junction[Z]. J's and one of the Main St lines ("U") would run local all the way to Springfield Blvd.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
"I say leave the A the way it is now and let it stay in the Rockaways. Extend the E to southern Queens like it was supposed to via Brewer Blvd [a better choice] or via Merrick Blvd to Green Acres [I think someone suggested this] via Brewer and nonstop via Conduit Av until making a stop at the Rosedale LIRR stop then to Green Acres."
Southeast Queens is big enough to accomodate the "A" and "E" lines without over lapping...
Linden Blvd is midway between Jamaica Avenue and Merrick Blvd when the street verges towards Southeast. There is approximately about 15 to 30 blocks between Linden Blvd and Jamaica Avenue... and Linden Blvd and Merrick Blvd.. This is ideal for rail transportation and that's why I stand strongly by it.
Another reason why I support this idea, is because, it will allow individuals living in Queens plenty of transfer options. One, individuals heading towards Central Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan has the option of using the "A" line.. While individuals heading towards Central Queens (which include Flushing (a north Queens destination)) and midtown Manhattan can use the "E" line.
N Broadway Line
Extending the J/Z is a LOST CAUSE, 'cause the J/Z is *ALREADY* a LOST CAUSE! (fogetabouit)
I have plans for good extended Queens service, but expanding existing lions (without making some better provision for doing so) is quite out of the question.
I shall now try my hand at drawing a map that makes clear my whole plan.
Elias
And just HOW is the J/Z a lost cause? The J/Z terminal at Jamaica Center [like the E] is NOT the real terminal & I say that extending it east towards eastern Queens via Jamaica Av looks sensible if you have another line running with it. Extending the E to SE Queens is what was supposed to be done.
That's correct, the E, J/Z were originally to use LIRR's Atlantic Branch ROW, as I said earlier. Perhaps if this conversion work were done to Green Acres, a further extension could be done above the Belt Pkwy (possibly a shuttle from Rosedale to Howard Beach) creating a Rockaway to SE Queens connection which would be faster than the current Q6/Q113 bus lines now in operation?
I don't know if the shuttle from Rosedale to Howard Beach would be needed but then again I may be wrong. On the Q113, all they have to do is expand the Q113 LTD to all times except nights and let all Q111's and every other Q113 run local.
I'm not sure what route would be more feasible since I live three thousand miles away, but a crosstown local from the Bronx to Queens does seem to be a reasonable idea. After all they have a Brooklyn-Queens, crosstown local, the G train. I have always been under the impression that Queens has gotten the short end of the stick of the New York Subway and as a former Queensian that rankles me a little. If I had my druthers I would like one to connect Shea with Yankee Stadium but since three trains already go to the latter that is an impossibility, and since finances are what they are a proposed Queens-Bronx subway train is only for the imagination right now. What do you guys out there think?
I'm not so sure about your proposal on the A, I think it should stay in the Rockaways, you're taking away its character by removing it from there but then again your idea of the W is interesting so lets compromise and have BOTH lines run to the Rockaways. Southern Queens could really use a subway you know.
Under my scheme the (A) train is extended along Liberty Avenue past Lefferts to Supthin, and then north to the LIRR station with a terminal at Hillside Avenue. Given this extension all of the (A) service would be needed there. And the Rockaways do not need *that* much service anyway.
My scheme diverts the (C) train south of West 4th Street to run as an express on the Smith-Culver route via the Rutger's tunnel.
The (V) train then runs from 6th Avenue to Chambers Street (WTC) giving 6th Avenue a decent shot at downtown.
The (E) train follows the (A) out onto Fulton Street, then diverts at Euclid to follow Pitkin through 76th Street, under a corner of Aquaduct and then east to the Nassau County Lion via Linden Boulevard.
Anyone from the Rockaways who really wanted a slower service through Brooklyn *could* change to the (E) at Aquaduct or to the (A) at Liberty.
: ) Elias
"My scheme diverts the (C) train south of West 4th Street to run as an express on the Smith-Culver route via the Rutger's tunnel."
C as an express? Why not the F? That way, the C could end at Church or Kings Hwy and the F go to CI.
C as an express? Why not the F? That way, the C could end at Church or Kings Hwy and the F go to CI.
Because the customers along Smith Street could not tolerate any changes to their service. But if there is to be a new express service that skips them, at least they will have identical service to what they have now.
Also, the (F) is a 24/7 train as such it makes all stops, and goes to Coney Island.
The (C) as a day-time service is the express and only goes as far as Kings Highway. Yeah it certainly makes no sense to those from CI who want a one-seat express, but it makes sense to those who live along Smith Street.
Elias
How come we are all saying "lion" instead of "line?"
I agree that the A line would be better off just serving the Lefferts Blvd Extension... But instead of turning north (since other services alread exist there), why not turn it south.. Make it run via Linden Blvd to about Springfield.. At the same time, extend the E southwards via Guy or Merrick Blvd into Green Acres. Meanwhile the J can be extended along Jamaica Avenue.
N Bwy
Interesting plan. Nice drawing!
One modification I'd make: in place of the new elevated 7 structure, put it underground. That way you accomplish a significant reduction in elevated lines while accomplishing your goal of expanding subway service.
I'm curious, why is it that lion is used instead of the word line?
Is this a inside joke?
No disrespect, just wondering?
Because
I *Like* LIONS, *that's* Why.
Aslan
AH!
Scary!
One modification I'd make: in place of the new elevated 7 structure, put it underground.
And where do you suggest putting the portal?
How about resurrecting the 1970s plan to extend (JAY/ZEE!) and E lines south along LIRR's Atlantic Branch ROW out to Rosedale, or dare I say Green Acres Shopping Mall (1500' east of present Rosedale LIRR Station?
"1) The IRT (7) line is rerouted with new elevated structure continuing along Roosevelt avenue and then west to the existing Steinway Tunnel along Hunters Point Blvd. The existing el on Queens Boulevard is torn down. "
I'm TURNING RED NOW!!! YOUR NOT GONNA TEAR THAT FREAKIN EL DOWN!!!!!!
AND YOUR IDEAS ARE VERY EXPENSIVE!!! AND JUST A FANTASY!!!!
Please stop attacking the cleverness of the SUBWAY FANS!!!
N Bwy
He can fantasize if he chooses. However, I agree that the plan for tearing the el via Queens Blvd makes absolutely no sense, and plus there were many disagreements to that already.
Thats right! This Friday, Decenber 27th, the Philadelphia Chapter of Subtalk is planning a multi-modal SEPTA trip. If you want to participate please meet at Market East Station (either near the ticket window or on the platform) where we will catch the 9:28 departing R2 train to Wilmington. The trip will include a round trip on the R2 and them probably an R3 trip to Media followed by an Rt 101 trip to 69th St and then maybe Rt 100 to Norristown and then R6 back to the City. If you are in the area please try to stop by.
Gee mMke, give me more than a few hours notice, I can get the day off :/
This is your THIRD notice. The first one was posted back in November. If 30 days is too short I can post after Haloween.
Hey I would like to know the differences between these New Haven Car classes both Cosmetically and Mechically. Any help is appreciated.
Adam
Simply contract numbers and one group of cars are a 3 car married set, vs. a 2 car married pair for the other 2 contracts.
One's got red trim (Cosmopolitan) the other's got blue.
wayne
Well, the M-2s (Built by Budd) are the 8400 through 8800 series and they are pairs. They have white passenger window borders. The M-4s (I think also Budd) are in the 8900-series, are coupled in triplets, and have white passenger window borders. The M-6s (built by Kawasaki) are in the 9000-series, are coupled in triplets, and have black passenger window borders.
Anyone else that can further explain the differences? It would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Carlton
formerly "Cleanairbus", still am, but not on Subtalk
Almost right.
The M2's were built By GE from car bodies assembled at Budd in married pairs from 1973-1976 total built 244 cars
The M4's are built By Tokyu in Japan in 1987 in triplets total 54 cars.
the M6 cars were built at Morrison Knudson in 1994/95 as triplets total of 48 cars.
the fleet is split 33/66 ownership between MTA/CDOT
Thank you for the clarification.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
To be right:
M-2: Budd/GE, 1971-73
M-4: Tokyu Car, 1987-89
M-6: MK, 1992-93
Does anyone know what trains on the New Haven line has the bar cars. I'm thinking about railfaning the line. It would be nice to ride in one of those bar cars. Can someone can give me the times of these new Haven trains that have these bar cars.
Thanks,
Adam
The New Haven Schedules have little wine glasses with the trains that have bar cars. I dont have a current schedule, but try the MTA website, I assume they would put the wine glass on those also.
Outbound from GCT -- 1.07, 2.07, 2.34, 2.37, 5.11, 5.32, 5.40, 5.44, 6.04, 6.07, 6.12, 6.16, 7.04, 7.11, 8.04, 8.07, 9.07. Inbound NH State St. -- 3.48, 4.48. Inbound NH -- 4.24, 6.59. Inbound Stamford -- 4.03, 6.33. Inbound Harrison -- 4.45. God knows what they've done with all those extra bar cars piling up out in the yard.
I believe there were 20 to start with, each as a member of an M2 married pair. MTA's 10 were rebuilt into coaches during their GOH with a few more windows cut out. CDOT's 10 are still around as such.
I'm submitting a request to the New Haven RR Tech & Historical Assn., but when the merge with PennC. and then Conrail happened the data probably got thrown away. My mother remembers my grandfather making first the model, and then when he showed it to the New Haven RR, the actual interior, of the first "Counter Car", in 1937 (Nov. 7 was the debut date but the year might be wrong). Breakfast on the 7:00 train in, liquor and snacks on one train outbound. The promo for the morning train: "Gone Is the Insidious Divorce Menace: The Commuter Breakfast Table".
My paternal Grandfather, rest his soul, used to ride the NHRR bar cars regularly as he was the Supreme Secratary of the Knight of Columbus (and one of the designers of the Concourse IND). Family legend has it that in the early 60s he fell off of one of those bar cars, around Easter, his nose looked like an Easter egg for the next few weeks.
Peace,
ANDEE
Family legend has it that in the early 60s he fell off of one of those bar cars, around Easter, his nose looked like an Easter egg for the next few weeks.
A bit worse than falling off the bar stool I suppose.
I'm impressed though - one of the designers of the Concourse Line.
>>>...one of the designers of the Concourse Line.<<<
One of 3. Pop pop (as we used to call him) was the ONLY one to advocate a 4 track line. But, alas, he was voted down. As we know today.
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the big reasons it took me so long to move here was my mom warning me how hard you easterners could drink. So your grandpa helped try to knock off the Jerome Ave. line (along with Hylan), and my grandpa helped try to knock off your grandpa. Looks like your grandpa might have been just a little tougher than Jerome Ave.
>>>>Looks like your grandpa might have been just a little tougher than Jerome Ave.<<<
Maybe true, he died when I was 7 years old in 1962,
He did not put up with up with any shit, as I remember.
His picture still graces my living room.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I was thinking that the drinking must have contributed to the Concourse Line being built so close to the Jerome El - why else would such a redundant Line be built.
Well we know the real answer. It's a shame that the IND was meant by Hylan in many cases to destroy the IRT and BMT. If not, we could have had a few extra lines on the map. If the money that was used for the Concourse Line and the Fulton Subway was used for a 2nd Ave subway or some other line in Queens or Brooklyn where it was really necessary, it would have been money wiser spent.
The Concourse Line for the most part is a bit redundant, but The Fulton Subway replacing the mostly upgraded Fulton El was completely redundant. I think the map would look much different. You would still have the Fulton El (or by now the subway may have taken over the almost parallel LIRR Flatbush Line), a line may be on 2nd Ave, and the Rockaway Line may in addition to being connected to the Liberty/Fulton El may run straight through Queens on the abandoned section, connecting with the Queens Blvd line, because there would have been no Fulton Subway to connect it to.
In those days, I imagine it was assumed that the ridership would retire the bonds and let all the additional planned IND lines be built AND the els be torn down. And Red Hylan stay in office. They never learn.
Lets keep in mind, the original IND with the exception of the Smith-9th St Viaduct and yards, was a SUBWAY. Out of the Weather. Not as subject to the whims of Mother Nature. The captures and connections are the vulnerable segments. The IND once flew!
avid
All true. Personally, although not my favorite lines, I do like the IND.
My problem with it was some of it's redundancies. In Manhattan it was a must to replace the els - no problem there. My problem is with replacing the mostly rebuilt Fulton El and building the Concourse Line where they did, so close to Jerome. I feel the money should have been used towards extensions or lines where there was no current lines in Brooklyn or Queens, or in a 2nd Ave subway.
From New Haven:3:52,4:24,4:52,6:59
From Stamford:4:03,4:53,5:25,5:52,6:33,7:53
From Harrison:4:45
From GCT:
1:07 to New Haven
2:07 to New Haven
2:34 to New Haven
2:37 to Stamford
5:11 to Stamford
5:23 to Bridgeport
5:32 to Old Greenwich
5:40 to Danbury
5:44 to Bridgeport
6:04 to New Haven
6:07 to New Canaan
6:12 to Danbury
6:16 to Stamford
7:04 to Stamford
7:11 to New Haven
8:04 to New Haven
8:07 to New Haven
9:07 to New Haven
Of course there are no promises ,sometimes there are no bar cars due to break downs, then again sometimes bar cars are on trains that usually dont have them.
In the same context.....Didnt the Erie-Lackawanna have some Comet I bar cars in the 1970s? Im assuming they were used on the longer runs, perhaps to Lake Hopatcong and/or Port Jervis. Anyone know - if I'm correct - what their fate was/is? Most of the Comet I's are still around.
BTW, I understand MARC in Baltimore/Washington has a first class car with beverage service, perhaps intereresting if you're in the area.
While on the subject of bar cars, how many did the LIRR have? I only rode in one once on a fan trip to Greenport. (A very cool trip, it used the Penn Station Dashing Dan Orange Protect Engines, open Gondola cars (which we could ride outside on), Parlor and Bar Cars, that was):
SW1001 #102-Open Gondola Car-Parlor Car-Bar Car-Parlor Car-Open Gondola Car-SW1001 #104
Anyway, I remember seeing the bar cars in revenue runs on the Montauk Branch before years ago. Did they run right until the new trains come? Now instead of buying beer, etc at the Bar Car, many commuters bring it with them, especially on Friday Montauk runs. I think they also serve beer from carts at some stations like Jamaica.
Some of the bilevel coaches have built-in bars, but I've never seen them in use.
Not as I recall....They were in such bad mechanical condition that they were junked before the bi-levels came in.
Incidentally, I once took a train from JAM to somewhere in the Hamptons with a girlfriend at the time to go water skiing (unsuccessfully) and to spend the day with her folks who were wrapping up a week's vacation. Anyway IIRC this was a Sunday and the bar car sold coffee, doughnuts, bagels and other "breakfast" food on this AM run....That was ended before 10/76.
The original bar cars were the class P74B (ex-Boston & Maine) 7521-7550 and P74B1 (ex-Bangor & Aroostook) 8551-8553 coaches. All were the "American Flyer" type cars that wre very common on the New Haven.
All three of the ex-BAR cars were done, and about half of the ex-B&M cars. There were variations in the interiors, but basically they has 3/4 of the seats removed and a full bar installed, along with pink flourescent lights and small standup counters along the non-bar side of the car. (I have a list of which specific cars were done, but I am NOT spending the afternoon trying to unearth it, it may be in my storage unit.)
There was also another one-of-a-kind bar car, 530. It was an ex-New York Central Budd-built car....in the 529-544 series that LIRR bought in late 1967 to make their "Silver Streak" train for the Port Jefferson line.
In the early 1970's, some of the former P72 2901-2980 class cars were converted to bar cars and numbered 2991-2993. Not sure of the original numbers; I do have a list around here somewhere.
i remember the e-l had "bar cars" on some of the pm runs. the attendants just set up on a plank between 2 rows of seats
does LIRR still do bar cars? i have seen bar cars on Metro North on trains as late as the 1217 new haven. funny i got a pass, and i never rode a MNRR bar car. some of my co workers are service attendants.
Yes. LIRR still does bar cars. A train leaving at around 5:30PM or so from Long Island City (Hunters Point Av) was featured in a NY Times article a while back (TGIF parties with food). A friend tells me that the party starts in the bar car every Friday.
Yeah, someone else mentioned that some of the bi-levels have bar areas, although he never seen them in use.
I remember years ago, when the third rail went only as far as Mineola on the Main Line (actually to E Eilliston) that there were bar cars on rush hour Main Line Trains. Although they were only used as bars on the PM rush I do remember you could stand in them (no seats) in the morning rush. Guys would even stand behind the bar in the morning with card games on the bar. As I got on at Westbury at the time I don't know if those trains were Huntington, Ronkonkoma/Greenport, or the Central Branch Montauk trains. (I doubt Montauk trains stopped at Westbury though)
This was posted on the Strappie board:
"The LIRR has released a statement saying that the LIRR M-7 will be testing the M-7 cars in sets of 8 on the A train between Eucalid Av and Rockaway Bch. These trains will serve as the A train between those two stops. You will have to transfer for Rockaway via JFK at Eucalid when they do this testing work. Lefferts Blvd will run as schuduled from 207th to Lefferts using the R32 ot R68... Expect the M-7 as ur new subway cars for a few months for final testing. "
Anyone ever hear of such a thing?
How would they get the cars to the A line in the first place?
Sounds like April fool's.
The LIRR car's platform height is different that the subway. "Watch the (vertical) gap!"
And 8-car LIRR trains are longer than 10-car IND platforms...
Also, since when do R-68s run on the A.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's easy for somebody who's not paying attention (or is copying info without thinking about it) to confuse the different 75 foot cars with each other.
But the posting about LIRR testing on the Rockaway IND sounds bogus to me.
Not to mention, how are they supposed to get there. They would have to ride through the Fulton Subway to get there, unless they are going to run them through the trees on the Old Rockaway Branch. I wouldn't take Rider Diaries to seriously.
Heh, I saw that on strappies too, another foamer fantasy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah since I post there I said simple "car weight, voltage difference, car length, no direct connection" make it all impossible for L.I.R.R. cars to run on the A line, it can be vise versa when the R-44s were test on the L.I.R.R but things can not be done in the reverse.
Yup, that's true. It's just too dumb to imagine.
Other knowledgable posters here have said that the LIRR itself was supplied with 660 volt power in December of 1972, when this R44 test and world speed record-setting run happened.
An 85 ft. car will N-E-V-E-R make the curves or switches on the IND ROW.
If the M-7 could fly, it might be able to do the RockPark - Howard Beach run. The fly part would be necessary to get from Far Rock LIRR to Far Rock IND.
You could take a beat-to-crap M-1, cut out a ten foot center chunk. Reweld it back, and have a 75ft shorty M-1. Multiply that by eight.
You would wind up with an old sawed-off proto type to park next to the R/110B and R/110A.
Now after pissing away $$$$$. Ask for a Fare Hike!
avid
If the M-7 could fly, it might be able to do the RockPark - Howard Beach run. The fly part would be necessary to get from Far Rock LIRR to Far Rock IND.
I know the M1's never ran on the LIRR Rockaway Branch when the LIRR had control of it, but shouldn't 85 foot cars be able to run from (forget about how you would get them there) where the Liberty El turns onto the old Rockaway ROW to both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park? How long was the equipment the LIRR used to run on that line, after all that section was the LIRR's until 1958
MP-54s and their kin; roughly 60-foot cars. (the 54 indicates the length of the passenger area)
wayne
The old double decker cars went as far as Aquaduct, and layed up on the express tracks. I'm not sure of their length, but I had the impression they were longer then the MP54s.
The M-1s would never make the curve from The Rockaway branch to the Liberty Ave El. The R/44s just squeeze through when they pass each other on that curve. Put two M-1s and you get sparks, weeping and wailing and Knashing of teeth.
avid
I think the old DoubleDeckers carried the MP70 designation.
wayne
That is correct....
200 was a T-62 (shorter than the rest)
201 was a T-70
1347 was MP70 (first control motor)
1337-1346 were MP70A
1287-1336 were MP70B
I don't know what the differences were in the MP70/MP70A/MP70B.
Some cars had controls; they would have been "MP70Ac" or "MP70Bc" (the little "c" desginating Automatic Speed Control equipment.)
Years back, I recall seeing a news item on one of the networks that was carrying a segment on the car shortage at that time.
The gest was that ten MP70s were overhauled and being stored at the Suffolk Airport, that was the former West Hampton Air Force Base.
Does anyone else recall this or know of an overhaul of MP70s?
avid
The cars (MP series) were shorter.
I suppose the LIRR could load a bunch of M-1's onto road trucks and haul each with a tractor, then set it up on tracks. But the whole thing's so illogical - LIRR has plenty of places to test trains and plenty of time slots to do testing in the off-hours.
The 85-footers would possibly be OK on the two curves at the end of the Jamaica Bay end since each is pretty wide, but the one coming into Rockaway Blvd from the old LIRR ROW is quite tight, the 75-footers treat it with deference (actually all "A" trains do).
wayne
I agree about the Rocaway curves at Hamels. They seem to have a radius that would permit an 85ft car.
What about the swing bridge clearence on the north and south channels? Would the M-1s roof clear the overhead?
avid
I would guess it would, since an R44 can. The M-7 is to the R143 as the M-1 is to the R44.
wayne
Good analogy
Not that good.
We're talking R/44 (75 ft)is to M-1 (85 ft) as R/143 (60 ft) is to
M-7 (85 ft). I'm thinking car height, truck location and ramp angle
plus or minus the fudge factor.
It would be a close squeeze, please.
avid
What the @#$%?????????? Oh Hell nah, a 8-Car M-7 will not fit in any of the A Line IND Stations, and the curves, dont let me get started on that.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Nevermind the lack of good connection, size differences, and the fact that the M7's will die if they try it. How about this one:
Why would they do it? There's test track thats primed for 80 MPH. It's 15 miles long or so. Its hardly used on middays, and almost never used on weekends. AND ITS ON LIRR PROPERTY!!! So, why would you test it on 30-mph (45 ,tops) track thats 3 miles long?
Point, set, match!
avid
I'd venture to guess that the M-1 would clear the bridges, if they are the same bridges that were there in the early 1950's. There was a fan trip run with LIRR MP70 double-deckers back then, and those sit a tad higher than the M-1's...same width and length.
Would it make a stop at 76th Street?
Crew change, pit stop and coffee from the Deli above on street level!
avid
Huh?? LIRR testing on the A line I seriously doubt that and basically you just answered your own question just HOW would they get on subway trackage, do they even have the same track gauge[they might]? And R68's do NOT on the A!
If any of you guys are going to watch the Rose Parade, I'm in it. I'll be marching with the Walton High School Band and playing the trombone. This will be the last post I'll make before New Year's because I'm leaving tomorrow. So, Happy New Year and watch the parade!
i walked what will be UNDER THE PARADE .....last month or so ..
the Pasadena GOLD LINE TUNNEL ....right under colorado blvd
where the atsf railroad used to run .....4 sure !!!
how about that ?? GOLD LINE under da' parade !!!
my high school band marched in the rose parade back in 1965 ...
TWU is trying to force a yes vote ont he proposed lousy contract. Vote No now and rememebrr this when they face re-election.
It seems they held a meeting to discuss the election process for the contract and all those dislking the proposed contract were asked to leave the room.
We need an "Honest Direction" Slate and not "New Lies" Slate.
for an editorial go to www.stationreporter.net/editorial.htm
Transit workers opposed to Toussaint’s sellout contract will be meeting to organize a campaign to get the truth out to workers about the contract and defeat it. This is not an RTW meeting, and is open to all transit workers, regardless of political views and affiliations, who are opposed to the contract and want to join together to defeat it.
When: Friday, December 27, 6:30pm
Where: 322 West 48th Street (between 8th and 9th Aves.)
For more info., call: (212) 330-9017
To all NYTA employees who have received 'Ole Rogers' message on their answering machines: Wake up and think!!!!! No matter what your title is, skill or background....the contract is an insult to you. We need the decent work and TA needs us!!! When you receive your contract ratification in the mail, VOTE NO. Worst case scenario is that this goes to arbitration...we'll get better wages but no arbitrator ever caves in to 'no layoff clauses.' CI Peter
RTO is not backing the Contract ether from what I was getting yesterday, after comming back of my DIF. I also talk to two B/O who told me that suface will also not be backing it.
Robert
Sounds like a crappy deal all around. If *ONLY* TWU's leadership had done what CSEA and PEF are, with TV ads illustrating on the proper "emotional basis" the good works of those who show up every day and are powerless to do much more than the "people's duties" in exchange for their biweekly eagle qwap ... It's a BAD contract (YES, I read it) and really needs to go to binding arbs ... if *I* was still UMD TWU, I'd be showing up downtown to grab some of Roger's NECK and choking the qwap outta him.
Granted, things are bad and about to turn straight to Hades for New York State, but the jewelers' rouge treatment in that contract should have been worth 10% for the "survivors" ... I don't see OPTO going away, I don't see any MEANINGFUL safety and rulebook improvements, I don't see WRITTEN withdrawal of supervision, and I see a LOT of undefined taffy that people have to wade through to MAYBE get their increment. Joe Bruno got ANOTHER train station and lots and lots of Pork Fried Lice, what did YOU guys get?
I'd vote it down too. Roger can blow me, not that the television HUG I saw means that Roger's a submissive, but dang ... I ain't seen a hug like that outside of Starsky and Leroy, or perhaps the "Velvet Jones School, 'BE a 'ho'" ... :(
Toss it, get the binding arbs BEFORE the Budget school, or y'all will be Joe Bruno's beech ...
hey guys just wondering if i am the only subtalker who works for the MTA Metro North Railroad? let me know or im me under the A 8AV FULTON EXP screenname
nope your not only one
I've been trying for a while now. I'd really like to work for MNRR but I guess I do not fit their qualifications. I need the contact name in the Employment Office to send a cover letter along with my updated resume. Maybe if I do that, I'll get in?
Otherwise, I'm just gonna keep on trying especially in 2003. I want out of the job I'm in now (office job). It is so horrible!
Maybe I can use you as 1 of my references, A 8v Fulton Exp? Please feel free to email me if you have any questions or suggestions. Thanks.
#6317 MNRR
(#1979 working for MNRR in 2003-I hope!)
After sending 2 resumes to MN I got a letter two weeks ago to show up for an interview and a test for asst conductor. However after a little research I found out it would be double dipping & I'd have to waive my police pension which would be ridiculous so I had to pass up the job.
sure u can use me, i will even give you their personal employee office number. im me whenever u get the chance, or drop me a email at paulroach2001@yahoo.com. look forward to seeing you get a blue card! (MNRR ID AND RAIL PASS)
On January 15th at 10:30 PM, Philadelphia's PBS station, WHYY will be airing a special on the Chicago EL system to accompany the nationally produced television documentary about the city. The short text that comes under the listing reads:
"Chicago, like Philadelphia, is one of the few American cities with an elevated train system. Hop on board Chicago's 'L' and learn about this city's hidden treasures."
I guess they neglected to include New York. Amazing how the oldest existing "el" structure in NYC (Jamaica line from Alabama Ave to Crescent Street) is only 110 years old, and they never include this "hidden treasure".
It is in conjunction with a nationally televised documentary on Chicago, not transit systems.
Does anyone know if this series is being aired on WNET or WLIW here in NY?
--Mark
This may have been a thread some time ago but I will mention it again.
A link to NYC Subway Resources is on one of the historical pages in the "Today in History October 27" at the Library of Congress website.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/oct27.html
The link is the 2nd one on the page: New York City Subway System. It goes to the main index on NYCSR.
Among all the accolades and feathers in the cap that Dave has received this would have to count this as among the top. The LOC in its own way is recognizing our favorite site as an authority on information on the NYC Subway (like none of us didn't already know that).
Dave - what can I say - this site is a "National treasure".
Yeah, that is a pretty cool accolade. Although if I had to choose I would have to say the first appearance in the NY Times (paper edition) is cooler, considering how long ago it was for two reasons - the site was much less massive back then, and the web was still pretty small overall. This article ran on the entire first page of the weekend Technology section on July 15, 1996.
350 Years of New York History Enshrined in an Infant Medium
Wow ... FRAUNCES TAVERN, a place where I enjoyed lunches once upon a time when I could deduct it. :)
A TOAST to nycsubway.org and the WONDERFUL place YOU have given us! Wowsers, you've been at this internet silliness almost as long as I have. Heh. THANKS in all seriousness for the link, and MAN OH MAN, this little old corner bar you've provided us ingrates is MIGHTY special to me. Wish we'd crossed paths between last Kissmoose and the Branfor event, I'd like to shake your hand and introduce ya to bing-bong. Ola! :)
> you've been at this internet silliness almost as long as I have
The first time I had anything to do with a public service on the internet was starting in 1989 at Rutgers University. So that might put me before you? :-)
I worked on the ARPANET in 1973 as a freshman at MIT.... yeah, we had email then. Everything was text. The operating system was MULTICS, a pre-cursor to UNIX. Terminals were "dumb," made by ADDS (this is even before the DEC VT-100).
We have a winner! No more calls, please. :)
I wasn't trying to start a debate over who'd been on "the net" the longest-- clearly that's not me-- but merely pointing out that I'd been running public servers long before the web. Systems you had to telnet to to use are few and far between now; most users nowadays haven't even heard of telnet. Much less the web's short-lived precursor, gopher. :-)
Same here, but it's nice to know there's others that remember the days before Al Gore "invented the internet" (something he never actually said) ... things were amusing back in the days of ! addresses instead of DNS. :)
things were amusing back in the days of ! addresses instead of DNS.
Actually, that was UUCP. The ARPANET used user@host, but there weren't any domain names and the list of hosts was a text file that each host kept a copy of. Anybody else remember "@O" to connect to a host from a TIP?
AT&T continued to use UUCP-style addressing even after they converted to TCP/IP internally - some habits die hard. And remember when .UK hosts "drove on the wrong side of the Internet"? [They used their own set of protocols, called Coloured Book, and the gateways rewrote the addresses back-to-front and back again. Some got confused by host names like edu.com, though.]
Yep ... UUCP was the way of the world, didn't do ARPANET for the first couple of years I was with the state, we were on MILNET, though the protocols were pretty close to the same. And yeah, the old HOSTS file still lives in many places, though good old MS has to have LMHOSTS in addition. Well, this ain't the place to be going off on these memories, but sure is nice to have others around here who remember the days when usenet was actually useful (and spam free) before Microsoft came in and screwed it all up. :)
"milnet" for me, since 1985 but only at an official state "terminal" ... good old gopher. I remember the excitement over MOSAIC. :)
Yeah, that first Times article is always cool. Forgotten NY was just up for a couple of weeks when it got a whole column by David Kirby in the Sunday Metro section on April 11, 1999. I got 2500 hits that day and Forgotten NY was on its way...I even got an email from a woman who wanted a date. We had the date. We didn't have a second one though.
Very nice, all around, Dave. Your site has become an institution.
What I wanna know is when is the nurse coming around with our medication? :)
Wow ... 427,000 attaboys for that honor ... congrats!
--Mark
anybody have a current update. last update listed 8108-8248 as active with 8249-8268 being tested.
Not having been on the L line recently, is almost all of it made up of R143s?
P.S. Sorry to pose a new question without answering the other.
Yesterday it seemed like the L had more R42's hen R143's. I had three different R42's within my first two round trips and one for one hole round trip my second half, whitch buy all means is alot of R42 for me. Over the past few mouths if I got two the hole day that was alot. One more thing one set that I had of R143's had two all four motors dead on them. I told Disp. at Rackaway before leaving and they already had it listed. The cars were 8110 and 8112 if anyone instred. Most of the time there are only two dead motors on a car. The train was dame slow have 8 out of 32 motors out.
Robert
Heh. You woulda LOVED the Arnines, bro ... most cars in a consist were dedicated TRAILERS. Sometimes you had to call control for a "push" up the bridge. :)
No more Standards on the LL?
Yes, its hard to miss a R143 on the L Line now.
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I'd say it's 75% Vulture by now, with one set of R40M and the rest being R42.
wayne
152 R-143s have been accepted as of today.
This is directed at Goumba Tony in particular, in response to those amazing renderings. Something has been preying on my mind and I now know it's the stairways interrupting the platforms. Is there a reason the trains can't stay back-to-back and the platforms stay to the outside, as in most of the existing local stations except for some "E" and "7" midtowns? The stair interruptions around 42nd street (admittedly, the construction makes them downright perilous) are bad for flow, and at a local stop, there's no need for cross-platforming. This wasn't an express, was it?
I notice most new systems (MARTA, WMATA, Montreal) use central platforms, and I'm not sure there isn't a better way to save money on column spacing.
WMATA (Metrorail) has quite a few bay platform stations in addition to the island platform ones, which are more common.
Metro Center (upper)
Gallery Pl (upper)
L'Enfant Plaza (upper)
Dupont Cir
Judiciary Sq
Smithsonian
McPherson Sq
Farragut W
Arlington Cem
Pentagon City
Crystal City
Eisenhower Ave
Cheverly
Clarendon
Virginia Sq-GMU
Ballston
Prince Georges Plaza
W.Hyattsville
There may be a few others here and there
wayne
I have the full list from my VERBAL track map (I can't draw):
The following stations have side platforms:
ORANGE LINE:
Ballston
Virginia Square
Clarendon
Farragut West (also Blue)
McPherson Square (also Blue)
Smithsonian (also Blue)
Cheverly
BLUE LINE:
See Orange Line and...
Crystal City (also Yellow)
Pentagon City (also Yellow)
Arlington Cemetery
Yellow Line:
See Blue Line and...
Eisenhower Avenue
Green Line:
West Hyattsville
Prince George's Plaza
Red Line:
Dupont Circle
Judiciary Square
The downside to an island platform station is that while you save money on duplication of stairs, escallators and elevators, you also sacrifice some capacity because there is less access (Metro Center in DC can be pretty tough to navigate if a Red Line train has just let out during rush hour on the upper level while two Blue/Orange trains have done the same thing on the lower level). But that's mainly a problem for the highest volume stations on the lines.
If a Second Ave. subway line is ever built as a full-length two track arrangment, station depth at transfer points (Houston, 14th, 42nd, 53rd or 60th) and predicted volume would probably determine whether or not the MTA went with a bay or island arrangement. Of course, if they ever came to their senses and made the line a four-track length of the island route, then the center/express stop and side/local stop platform arrangement would be the most likely option.
I'm assuming you mean two-platform, as at Times Sq IRT, with one platform for each direction allowing local to express transfer.
Yes, the most common arrangement that debuted with Mr. Parson's IRT Contract 1 line, where the local stations are side platforms and the express are island platforms.
I'd guess that if they ever did build a four-track Second Ave. line for the length of the island, the natural transfer stations would probably be express stops, though the MTA would probably have to pick between Houston and 14th St. as an express stop, so the other would be a side platform transfer, unless the bi-leveled the thing, like the IRT Lex between Grand Central and 103rd St.
We don't have this currently in New York, but do any systems have center local tracks with island platforms and outside express tracks, with the standard express station configuration at express stops, except reversed.
If they ever decide on four tracks for the SAS, how about this for the Local Stations:
Second Avenue Express
Second Avenue Local
Local Platform
Second Ave Local
Second Ave Express
And for the Express Stations, the standard configuration, except reversed by New York Standards, with the Expresses against the wall. Wouldn't this make it cheaper to build/maintain, since only one platform would be necessary instead of two at the local stations?
yes, the confiuration with island local platforms w/ express tracks outboard exists on the North Side in Chicago. The Red Line north of Wilson Abenue is like that. Also the Metra Electriv (former Illinois Central is similarly configured from Roosevelt Road (12th St. ) to Kensington 115th where the line splits in three branches. While the Metra is an "FRA" mailine operation it is really much more like a rapid transit operation--all high platform, mostly grade separated.
Technically -- sort of, kind of -- there is one station in New York, plus one half of another where that alingnment exists.
The one station is DeKalb Ave., where the outer platforms connect to/from the Manny B tracks, bypassing downtown, while the inner platform tracks link up with the Montague tunnel. Of course, as a six-track station the "real" express tracks off Fourth Ave. bypass DeKalb entirely, while in ye olden days, when the N used the Manny B while platforming at DeKalb, it had to cut in front of the R to switch to/from the Fourth Ave. express tracks to get to the outer platform bridge track shared with the Brighton line.
The "one half" station is downtown on the IND at 47th-50th Sts., where because of the track alignment leading from 53rd St., the B/D comes in on the outer platform and the F/V on the inner platform, with the positions switching between 47th-50th and 42nd St. (There are also a couple of other oddities, like downtown on the IRT Lex at 125th and uptown on the IND between 59th and 110th along CPW, where the local tracks are on the "wrong side" of the express tracks. But neither of those situations is a four-track alignment).
I believe that London Underground's Jubilee Line spends part of its route with the express-running Metropolitan Line outside of it - but that may be on one side only. If so, it would resemble the LIRR's elevated line track config. as it looks at Valley Stream station.
Chicago. The Purple "Evanston Express" runs outside the Red local.
Ooops I just realized I "wrong railed" the scrolling text. Well, you all get the idea.
Ooops I just realized I "wrong railed" the scrolling text.
You must have been thinking of our lovely metropolis here in warm sunny England...
Jubilee Line (local) and Metropolitan Line (express): Finchley Road - Wembley Park
Wembley Park itself is a bit odd - it has an "express" station setup with the Jubilee Line on the inside faces of the island platforms and the Met stopping trains on the outer faces; however outside of these are another track on each side with a side platform for the Met Fast/Semi-Fast trains (which incidentally don't stop there most of the time anyway)
West of Wembley Park there is a flying junction where the Jubilee Line dives off North to Stanmore.
But guess what this leaves - yep, the Met stopping trains on the inner two tracks and the Met Fast/Semi-Fast on the outer two. This continues for the section Wembley Park - Harrow-on-the-Hill.
Perhaps I should say that an added complication to all this is that for all of this section the twin-track main line out of Marylebone runs immediately to the south of all this. The first stop on these tracks is Harrow-on-the-Hill, so as well as the two island platforms of the "express" station, there is a third island platform for the Main Line trains.
West of Harrow-on-the-Hill, the Met stopping trains to Uxbridge dive under the main line leaving the Met Semi-Fast Lines and the two Main Line tracks. It is at this point that the Met Fast trains switch to the Main Line tracks, resulting in a really dumb layout from this point outwards: Down Express, Up Express, Down Local, Up Local. This means that if you are at Moor Park (a station with two island platforms at the extreme end of this dumb formation), if you want a train towards Amersham and Aylesbury, you have to know whether it HAS BEEN Fast or Semi-Fast (Express or Local) coming from London.
Anyway, the point of this all was: yes, this happens on two sections of the London Underground.
You were just channeling the Chicago & North Western, which runs on the left track.
You guys forgot about the CPW line. It DOES have this configuration but it is on one side and it is two levels btw 72 St and 103 St so it does technically.
Yes, that's what I posted last night though as I said, it's not a four-track side-by-side arrangement, so it doesn't really count (plus the downtown level is normal configuration anyway).
island platforms require fewer elevators/escalators than wall. They may not be appropriate for all installations, but where feasible they are cheaper. As a further design, the Baltimore system is all island, all OPTO and the cabs are all lefthand.
Additionally, in order to provide passengers with the ability to reverse directions without paying an extra fare (such as when a passenger accidentally travels too far or in the wrong direction initially, stations with side platforms often require a mezzanine level inside fare control, unless the street level can be enclosed within a fare control perimeter. Other reasons for reverse-drection transfers include such situations as the Archer Av line, where a northbound passenger ends up transferring from an east-bound J train to a west-bound E train. This adds to the expense.
What a quiet way to come back. Ronnie, why the hiatus? :-D
While there are advantages to island stations, they always require a mezzanine unless you can put the entrance in the middle of the street. Where feasible, Parsons' orignial design for local stations -- a short walk down to a side platform -- is nice for the customer.
It turns out the number one limitation on the Lex Express is now dwell time at Grand Central, not the signals. At that location, it's too bad they didn't separate local and express, as at Penn Station, and have two platforms with entrance in one direction and exit in another, on the express. I doubt any Second Avenue stations would justify that treatment, however.
It turns out the number one limitation on the Lex Express is now dwell time at Grand Central, not the signals.
It's been 2 years since I last studied problems on the Lex Ave Express. Loading at Grand Central, while ineptly handled, was not the number one limitation. I'll check it again to see, if anything has changed since then.
BTW, dwell time was not even the number one problem at Grand Central.
It turns out the number one limitation on the Lex Express is now dwell time at Grand Central, not the signals. At that location, it's too bad they didn't separate local and express, as at Penn Station, and have two platforms with entrance in one direction and exit in another, on the express
I'm surprised the IRT didn't make GC like Penn Station. They were built around the same time (Since the original GC became part of the shuttle). Obviously they thought it warranted it at Penn, so I don't know why they didn't do the same at GC when it was rebuilt when they extended the Lex Line north and the West Side Line south.
The three-platform stations (34th, 34th, and Atlantic) each have another express station one stop away, so the inconvenience is only imposed on those boarding, not on those transferring between local and express. There is no express station one stop away from Grand Central on either the original line or on the Dual Contracts modified line.
Island stations are cheaper to maintain, since vandals do not have access to the walls!
Elias
"vandals do not have access to the walls!"
But they can get to the different things on the platform.
eg Payphones, signs, benches, stairways ect.
Island platforms are mainly appearent as express stations and terminals but there are local island platforms as well [this occurs on 2 track lines and when express tracks run under or separate from the local tracks on 4 track lines]. Wall stations are mostly local stations and islands are safer [particularly on 2 track lines] and cheaper to maintain and not all islands are narrow[example Roosevelt Av] but there are wider islands on 4 track lines.
Their systems are much newer, they are mostly or entirely 2 tracks and they built more islands than side platforms to cut down on expenses.
What would be smart is to put the express tracks on the OUTSIDE and the local tracks on the INSIDE. Then, you could have one island platform at local stations and two island platforms at express stations.
Yes, it would be a smart thing to do then at express stations you could do a over/under before approaching express stations and would be a first for the NYC subway system :-). I think GP38 Chris suggested that configuration in a recent post.
In general, if the station was built cut-and-cover, you´ll find side platforms. If it was bored, then it will usually be island. I *think* is so because if you have an open trench while doing cut-and-cover, you´ll have less dirt to dig up because you don´t need to make room for the tracks to spread apart for an island. It´s saves on disturbing the surface more than nessesary. Of, course there are exceptions, but it´s mostly the case. MARTA is made up of about 1/3 side platforms.
Actually, it's up to the designers and the engineers. In Baltimore, the tunnels were bored or drilled, depending on soil/rock conditions. The stations were all cut-and-cover, with full mezzanines and platform levels. As noted earlier, all Baltimore stations are center platforms and the operators cabs on on the left.
Charles Center is the most massive station and the mezzanine actually enables people to go from Hanover Street on the west to Calvert Street on the east. The mezzanine was built with provisons for retail establishements, and 20 years later they have actually been built and opened. You can even renew your driver's license in the Charles Center mezzanine.
Montreal is predominantly side platforms with mezzanines above for access and fare control. At least one station (Lionel-Groulx)has island plaforms shared by trains on two different lines, with two separate levels as well.
I am back in NY for the week and have had a chance to do some railfanning so far..i met up with my friend Tim on Tuesday and we rode the 1 through SF, then would up on an F and E out to Jamaica Center/Parsons Archer, and then came back on the J (the to and from in Queens with the exception of going out on the F to change for the 7 to Shea was all new territory for me...:)
I know that G.O. for the 2 is in effect this weekend (reversing through the SF loop), but is that "NX" GO in effect?? would love to get a chance to ride the Sea Beach express tracks?? (someone email me off-line...i didn't see it on the MTA website)
Interesting site today too...pulling into Nevins St on the 2, a set of R-142's on the 5 pulled in across from us...i thought it was strange that the train was signed for Flatbush Ave (midday) until i saw signs taped to every window (Test Train-Do Not Board)....the train pulled in to Nevinx, the C/R opened the doors on the wrong side, closed them, and went off (did it again at Atlantic Ave too)...The two middle cars were 7115 and 7101...C/R and T/O testing or testing of those cars???
The 7100-series R142-
They are new deliveries and are probably getting their "burn-in" road tests.
wayne
I am back in NY for the week and have had a chance to do some railfanning so far..i met up with my friend Tim on Tuesday and we rode the 1 through SF, then would up on an F and E out to Jamaica Center/Parsons Archer, and then came back on the J (the to and from in Queens with the exception of going out on the F to change for the 7 to Shea was all new territory for me...:)
I know that G.O. for the 2 is in effect this weekend (reversing through the SF loop), but is that "NX" GO in effect?? would love to get a chance to ride the Sea Beach express tracks?? (someone email me off-line...i didn't see it on the MTA website)
Interesting site today too...pulling into Nevins St on the 2, a set of R-142's on the 5 pulled in across from us...i thought it was strange that the train was signed for Flatbush Ave (midday) until i saw signs taped to every window (Test Train-Do Not Board)....the train pulled in to Nevins, the C/R opened the doors on the wrong side, closed them, and went off (did it again at Atlantic Ave too)...The two middle cars were 7115 and 7101...C/R and T/O testing or testing of those cars???
I just got an MTH Premier DD-1 O gauge electric locomotive in LIRR colors (it was also available in PRR paint, but I wanted the LIRR). What I'd like to know is the history of this two-unit locomotive.
Where was it used on Long Island? When? Was it used for both freight and passenger service or both?
Is there a site which has LIRR history?
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
It was used to pull passenger trains out of Penn Station to Jamaica, where it was taken off and the steam engine was attached.
"Change at Jamacia" occurred only after the retirement of the Jackshafts, which did last into the begenning of the diesel era.
Elias
Thanks for the info. Can I assume they lasted until late 1940s, early 1950s? I had thought that since it's an electric, it obviously would have to have been used in electrified territory. I figured that since it doesn't have pantographs, it couldn't have been used for Bay Ridge freight service.
Another Subtalker sent me an e-mail mentioning the site. That has lots of LIRR information, including a really interesting summary of the joint operations with the elevateds, but nothing on the DD-1.
Now I've got to look for appropriate cars for it to pull. I think Mike's had some.
Thanks again,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Sorry--the site is
lirrhistory.com
The graphemic brackets I used in the first post apparently caused the address to disappear.
Ed
Answering my own questions, from the catalog on the MTH web site (railking.com), I found out that the Pennsylvania had 24 pairs of them built at Juniata in 1909, and that the first regular passenger train out of Penn Station, on 27 November 1910, was pulled by a pair of DD-1s. The Mike's blurb says that they could pull 14 cars. Some were gradually moved to the LIRR, where they lasted into the early 1950s.
Ed
Some were gradually moved to the LIRR, where they lasted into the early 1950s.
Yes, their last livery was the Gray and White of the first diesels.
Diesels of the Sunrise Trail have some nice pictures of them.
Elias
The DD-1 would look okay with the K-Line LIRR set of 4 aluminum coaches. They pop up on E-bay every now and again for about $200. Incidently, they have a pix and some info about the DD-1 in "Change at Ozone park".
Train Dude--
Thanks for the suggestion. The latest MTH cars don't seem right (especially the full-length vista-dome in LIRR colors).
8-)
Ed
Yeah, I think the pictures in "Change at Ozone Park" is of an Oyster Bay Train before & after (DD-1 and then steam). If I can only find where my wife hid the book when she last cleaned I will scan and post the pics.
DD1s were transferred from PRR to LIRR beginning in the mid-30's after the Northeast Corridor was electrified under wire from NYC to Wash DC, making the third rail DD1s surplus. The DD1s hauled standard coaches from Penn Sta to Jamaica where steam engines took the cars the rest of the way to Port Jefferson, Ronkonkoma/Greenport, Oyster Bay, and Montauk. DD1s were also used between Brooklyn and Jamaica for freight trains that served a large wholesale meat market near FBA terminal, and a large milk plant near Jamaica on Atlantic Ave. The last DD1s ran in June 1951.
Thanks--you answered my question about whether the DD-1s were used for freight and when they were finally retired.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
"The last DD1s ran in June 1951."
In the book, "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," the authors state that the last DD-1 was withdrawn from service in 1952. There are numerous photos of DD-1s in "Electric Heritage of The Long Islnad Rail Road, 1905 - 1975" by Ron Ziel, some pulling passenger cars and some freight.
The best source of info on the DD-1's that I have seen is Ron Ziel's "Electric Heritage of the LIRR" that sometime appears on EBAY (I think it has been out of print since the mid 1970's). It usually goes for about $30 or so.
Here's the exact info on the book:
"Electric Heritage of the Long Island Rail Road - 1905-1975",Ron Ziel, with John Krause, Carstens Publications, Newton, 1986, ISBN 911868-50-X;
(found on S. Berliner's LIRR Website )
Thanks for the details on the Ziel/Krause book. It isn't that old, so I may be able to find a copy in the used book market.
Ed Alfonsin
Does anyone have any idea where I could find one (I know its a long shot)?
In the rolling stick section of this websites, lots of pics with the door 8-). I really think its a longshot; if they were to scrap a work car of a R21/R22 and they were selling parts then that may be your only chance.
I was thinking about that, does anyone have any idea how much longer there gonna run those things?
There's a clothing store on the corner of Broadway and
Great Jones (I think, somewhere around there) that has
a few R21 or R22 fronts on display. Why does it have to
be an R21?
Actually It really doesnt have to be just R21, just thought people would catch on.. What do you mean when you say they have 'fronts' the hole front end?? Just decoration right, there not selling these things are they?
See: WET SEAL near Astor Pl.
Two life-size subway car faces on display
with white scheme r21/22 double sash storm doors.
NO FOAMING in front of the cash registers, brah..
Well, if any redbird door will do, go up to the gate at
207 St! I think storm doors are being removed prior to reefing.
Redbird parts are being given away at 207?
I don't think there being given away, but maybe you could slip someone some $$.
I've been trying to get in contact with the MTA's surplus material line for quite some time now. No answer.. Tried emailing them, no answer...
Maybe you might want to check Coney Island yards. By the way, anyone know where I can possibly get a controller from the R68/R62A series? I have a controller from an R1(bought it at Hoboken Tri Transit Festival 2001 for $25), but I would like to have one of these as well.
Maybe you might want to check Coney Island yards. By the way, anyone know where I can possibly get a controller from the R68/R62A series? I have a controller from an R1(bought it at Hoboken Tri Transit Festival 2001 for $25), but I would like to have one of these as well.
Anybody have a hand grab from R17, that wants to sell, contact me.
I saw a commercial today for a Legend of Zelda game for the Nintendo GameBoy Advance. I'm not sure if anyone else has seen it yet. It appears that the commercial takes place on an R 32 or 38 but b/c no end shots of the rail cars where shown, I could not tell which one it was. If you have seen the commercial, Any ideas?
GO TERPS!!!
i saw that comercial too,at first i thoght it was on an R42,but it
maybe it was on done an R32 or R38 or,some other subway car.
til next time
I saw that several times on the Cartoon Network...
2 of my favorite things...Nintendo and the NYC Subway. :-P
I need some help from those knowledgable about the Washington Metro System. Although I have a system track map it doesn't show track numbers. How are the tracks identified? Are odd numbers for eastbound or westbound tracks? Thanks.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I don't know about the other lines but each section of track is given a route letter. I know the Red Line from Shady Grove to Metro Center is A and from Glenmont to Metro Center is B. Then each track is given a number. Track 1 on the Red Line is the Glenmont bound one (the whole way) and Track 2 is the other one. Pockets are Track 3, such as the one north of Farragut North, but I can not confirm that it is. I know the third track at National Airport is track 3.
WMATA Thanks. I didn't know about the letters. Usually though odd numbers tracks go in on direction and even numbered in the other and this applies throughout the system.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I don't really pay much attention to it and I rarely ride lines other than Red. When riding the Red Line, you can only hear radio transmissions to and from other Red Line trains, so if they tell operators on the Red Line there are track workers on Track 2 between Tenleytown and Medical Center, I will know what they are talking about. Of course, if I went on one of the other lines, I could easily figure it out. The "route letters" is how the names A & C Connection and D & G Junction came about. A & C Connection connects routes A and C, D & G Junction are where routes D and G meet.
I will take yet another stab at trying to identify all the routes, but you will see some are missing:
A-Shady Grove to Metro Center
B-Glenmont to Metro Center
C-Vienna to Metro Center
D-New Carrollton to Metro Center
E-Greenbelt to Gallery Place
F-Branch Avenue to Gallery Place
G-D&G Junction to Addison Road
H-Rosslyn to Huntington
J-King Street to Franconia-Springfield
K-Fenwick Bridge (L'Enfant Plaza to Pentagon)
I do believe there are 10 routes in total.
The only ones I know are A, B, C, D, and G. I am pretty sure about E and F, and am outright guessing on H, J, and K. The site where I got this info is no longer online, unfortunately.
WMATA: Thanks. You've given me something to look for the next time I go down there.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I can't think of a place to locate the route letters, otherwise I would have tried to figure it out by now. You can see the track numbers easily though. Walk along any platform and look at the third rail cover. You will eventually see a white sticker that says TRK 1 in black letters. Obviously, if it is not track 1, it will have a different number. :-)
This is an old thread but I thought it necessary to correct the errors in this post.
A Route Metro Center > Shady Grove
B Route Metro Center > Glenmont
C Route Metro Center > Huntington
D Route Metro Center > New Carrollton
E Route Gallery Place > Greenbelt
F Route Gallery Place > Branch Avenue
G Route D and G Junction > Largo Town Center
J Route C and J Junction > Springfield-Franconia
K Route Rosslyn > Vienna
L Route C and L Junction (Pentagon) > F and L junction (L'Enfant Plaza)
Track are identified by there route letter then number
A1 B1 > Glenmont
A2 B2 > Shady Grove
C1 D1> New Carrollton
C2 D2 > Huntington
E1 F1 > Greenbelt
E2 F2 > Branch Avenue
G1 > Largo Town Center
G2 > Franconia-Springfield
J1 > Largo Town Center
J2 > Franconia-Springfield
K1 > New Carrollton
K2 > Vienna
I will also note that stations also have a letter number code that corresponds to the areas that
the local train control rooms protect.
A01 Metro Center
A02 Farragut North
A03 Dupont Circle
A04 Woodley Park-Zoo
A05 Cleveland Park
A06 Van Ness
A07 Tenleytown
A08 Friendship Heights
A09 Bethesda
A10 Medical Center
A11 Grosvenor
A12 White Flint
A13 Twinbrook
A14 Rockville
A15 Shady Grove
A99 Shady Grove Yards
B01 Gallery Place
B02 Judiciary Square
B03 Union Station
B?? New York Avenue
B99 Brentwood (Yard)
B04 Rhode Island Avenue
B05 Brookland-CUA
B06 Fort Totten
B07 Takoma
B08 Silver Spring
B09 Forest Glen
B10 Wheaton
B11 Glenmont
B98 Glenmont (Yard)
C01 Metro Center
C02 Mcpherson Square
C03 Farragut West
C04 Foggy Bottom-GWU
C05 Rosslyn
C06 Arlington Cemetery
C07 Pentagon
C08 Pentagon City
C09 Crystal City
C10 National Airport
C11 Potomac Yard*
C12 Braddock Road
C13 King Street
C97 C and J Junction
C98 Alexandra Yard Lead
C99 Alexandra Yard
C14 Eisenhower Avenue
C15 Huntington
D01 Federal Triangle
D02 Smithsonian
D03 L'Enfant Plaza
D04 Federal Center SW
D05 Capitol South
D06 Eastern Market
D07 Potomac Avenue
D08 Stadium-Armory
D98 D and G Junction
D09 Minnesota Avenue
D10 Deanwood
D11 Cheverly
D12 Landover
D13 New Carrollton
D99 New Carrollton Yard
E01 Mount Vernon Square
E02 Shaw
E03 U Street
E04 Columbia Heights
E05 Georgia Ave-Petworth
E06 Fort Totten
E07 West Hyattsville
E08 Prince George's Plaza
E09 College Park
E10 Greenbelt
E99 Greenbelt Yard
F01 Gallery Place
F02 Archives
F03 Waterfront
F04 Navy Yard
F05 Anacostia
F06 Congress Heights
F07 Southern Avenue
F08 Naylor Road
F09 Suitland
F10 Branch Avenue
F99 Branch Avenue Yard
G01 Benning Road
G02 Capitol Heights
G03 Addison Road
G04 Summerfield
G05 Largo Town Center
J01 Quaker Lane *
J02 Van Dorn Street
J03 Franconia-Springfield
K01 Court House
K02 Clarendon
K03 Virginia Square
K04 Ballston
K05 East Falls Church
K06 West Falls Church
K99 Falls Church Yard
K07 Dunn Loring
K08 Vienna
*Main line train control area without a station stop.
To go even further than track numbers, the signals are a letter follwed by (I think four) numbers. The letter is based on the line.
The first two numbers indicate the station and the next two represent the signal. If a station has four signals (2 tracks having inbound and outbound signals) A sample signal number would be A399 where A3 represents a station on the Red Line and 99 is the signal number attached to a signal at station A3.
Michael
Mike: Thanks for the info.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Letter = route, number next to letter = train control area, number below letter number code = signal number all signal number are even. The double crossover at Dupont Circle A03 would be track A1 normal direction of travel to Shady Grove A03 08 against normal direction of travel to Glenmont A03 06. track A2 normal direction of travel to Glenmont A03 02 against normal direction of travel to Shady Grove A03 04 Singles 08 and 06 will always be on track 1, 02 and 04 will always be on track 2.at every crossover interlocking in the
system.
Pocket track are similar track 1 normal direction 26 against normal 28 normal direction 36 against normal 38, track 2 normal direction 42 against normal 40 normal direction 32 against normal 30 track 3 normal direction movement to track 2 34 , normal direction movement to track 1 44.
I was poking around Oren's web page (Is it OK if I call you that instead of WMATAGMOAGH?) and I noticed he organized a Metrorail fan trip last year. Will there be any in 2003? I am interested in attending one of those, if my school work doesn't interfere in it.
GO TERPS!!!
I don't mind if you call me by my real name. Nothing is in the works now.
Let me know if you want to plan one---Count me in!!! I'll bring the destination scroll the I acquired from Lem Proctor at the Metro HQ.
i might want to join you too (again). how about during cherry blossom time in the spring
I might want to join in, also. My son lives in Beltsville , so I can crash there and spend a weekend riding Metro. I would love to meet all you Sub-Talk posters!
Chuck Greene
If the interest exists, we can explore possibilites. Perhaps we can visit the Red Line and CAF cars (since we did almost everything else last time).
I'm interested (since just up the road in Baltimore). Let me know. You have my e-mail address.
I'd be interested as well. I missed out last time as I had a wedding to go to with my now ex g/f. : ( Had I known that was going to happen, I would have bagged the wedding and actually ahd some fun!!
You can e-mail me as things firm up. I'm up for a trip after the "nasty" winter weather is over.
Chuck Greene
Are there still any subway stations in New York that have incadescent lighting? If so, can you people toss out a few names for me?
Thanks,
Robert King
All stations are 100% incadescent free but there could be some station fare control area with incadescent lighting like Fordham Rd on the B,D lines.
I hope you're kidding. I thought there were still a few that haven't got fluroescent lighting. Are you serious? They've all been done? That's disappointing.
-Robert King
Pelham Parkway on the White Plains Road Line (2) is definitely still lit with incadescent lighting.
Middletown Road on the Pelham Line (6) may also be ... I don't remember.
I think there's one more station that is still lit with incadescent lighting, but I don't know which one it is. I think subwaybuff@mindspring.com knows though. Care to chime in? :)
--Mark
Middletown wins the prize too!
Thanks!
So it's just Pelham Parkway & Middletown Road? There wasn't a third?
--Mark
Not at this time unelss you count Court Street IND (Transit Museum)
I was out of the city from 1966 till 1994. I returend for vacatiosn in 1977 and 1983. In 1977 the Concourse line was incandescent. In 1983 it had goen fluorescent.
Pelham Parkway (2) will go modern since it is being renovated as are all stations from Bronx Park East to 241.
I expect that Middletown will be done in a future renovation or perhaps as an in-house job.
Ralph (C) Brooklyn's Mezzanine will probably go modern in a future program. Hoyt (A/C/F) is also slated for new liughts in the mezz.
How about Court St. (the transit museum)?
Court Street has been closed a while. So no one knows for sure about that station.
The Court St station was upgraded to flourescent lighting around the time it opened in 1976 (if not before).
The station has been closed a while. (A year?) So off hand I don't know what they have.
Ya know? That's actually a SHAME ... for a CLASSIC IND station, it sure would have been nice if ADA and so many other nonsensical intrusions on history couldn't have left COURT ST at least alone in its HISTORIC IND conditions, with the "mood lighting" and all. Yes, the dip out of sunlight into darkness, and the "blinding light" on entry back to the street was something you noticed, but to see fluorescent lighting in a historical exhibit such as the transit museum does belie the "full Monty" here ...
Back when I was a motorman, there were still a number of stations with the old 5-bulbers, the Arnines were 5-bulbers too. It WORKED, and it seems as though that flickering historical perspective of where things once were is all but lost. THANK GOD for BRANFORD! :)
The Court St station was upgraded to flourescent lighting around the time it opened in 1976 (if not before).
IIRC, Court Street did NOT have flourescent lighting up until the time it closed. I am 99% sure of that, at least on the platform level anyway.
That is correct. All one has to do to verify this is LOOK AT THE PICTURES OF THE TRANSIT MUSEUM on this sight.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think someone mistakenly thought Court Street when we all know that it was 76th Street that had flourescent lighting ....
--Mark
AMEN! As a "ta" purist and former, there is a HISTORICAL value to the "IND mood lighting" that is a core issue unto its own from a "preservation" standpoint, and I would hope, that if it DOES get intercoursed with, that there will be CATERWALLING and VIOLENT PROTEST if it gets converted to "ta issue lighting." The mighty orbs of IND shall be occursed if that is NOT the case once it reopens.
Seriously though, for those of us who lived in the outer boroughs, the warm glow of DC (or 25 Hz) was what SCREAMED subway to us, along with the fans turning instead of wimpy-arsed airconditioning, the warm tunnel breezes (chill in winter) with an oncoming train and the self-avowing "SSsssssKKRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeee" of a stopping train. Anything else is BULLSHIRT ... Court doesn't handle active traffic, X marks the spot, it BELONGS as a museum. Indiana Fedora motorman (check the Branford pix for time and channel) SEZ SO. :)
You're correct. Here's a pic from the museum dated from 1999:
Chris, do you know the layout at the museum?
What car is that whose pantograph gate appears at the right edge of your picture, making it appear that it might be coupled to 6239?
The only areas of the Transit Museum (Court Street) that had flourescent lighting were the office areas. All public areas were incandescent, supplemented by track lighting. This arrangement will remain after renovation.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I can't be right all the time.
That's not true. The mezzanine and platform areas of the Transit Museum station were incandescent lit as late as 1997, the last time I was there. I'd assume since this station is a museum, the practice will continue when it re-opens.
The permanent lights were removed a while back from the soon-to-be-demolished northbound platform at Atlantic Avenue on the L, leaving only temporary incandescent lights:
East Broadway still has an incandescent-lit mezzanine, I think. I'm sure there are others.
East broadway has been changed to FLuorescennt.
Pelham Parkway (2/5( platforms, Hoyt (IND) Mezz (parts), Fordham (D) mezz,23 (C/E) mezzz-24 st entrance, 50/8th- middle exit uptown.
Most of the mezzanine at Continental Ave. is still only incandescent lit. So are some of the mezzanines of the local stations between it and Roosevelt Ave. 14th/6th only has flourescents concentrated near the token booths. I'm not sure if the mezzanines at Jay St. and Hoyt/Schermerhorn have been completely upgraded to flourescents.
There are no "platform areas" lit with incandescents left in the system. The last of these stations (Ft. Hamilton Pkwy and Church Ave on the F Line) were upgraded in 1987.
As for elevated stations, I think the only remaining incandescent lit ones still in existance are Bronx Park East and Pelham Pkwy on the IRT White Plains line. These I know are scheduled for replacement very soon.
There are no "platform areas" lit with incandescents left in the system. The last of these stations (Ft. Hamilton Pkwy and Church Ave on the F Line) were upgraded in 1987.
When were the lights done on the West Side Line, north of Times Square. I seem to vaguely remember them being very dimmly lit right into the 80's, possobly even the mid to late 80's. I remember going through there on an express as a teenager, and seeing the dim local stations go by. I don't remember when that memory is from though, but it has to be some time between 1982 and 1987.
I'm not sure. All of my personal recollections of incandescent lit platform areas consist of IND stations only, mostly on Fulton St. in Brooklyn and Hillside Ave in Queens.
Ralph (Brooklyn C) also has incandescent in the mezz.
Jay Street has been upgraded for quite a while now.
Bronx Parkl East has fluorecsent ont eh paltforms.
Bare incandescent bulbs survive in many stations as backup lighting,
powered in strings of 5 from the 3rd rail. However, even those
are disappearing fast, as numerous contracts are being let for
lighting upgrades. The old emergency lights are removed and
the new fixtures have a place in them for backup lighting. I
don't know if the new backup lights are also incandescent bulbs
or some kind of compact fluorescent.
Compact fluorescents are key. Of course, they are a little costly at the beginning, but think of the savings in energy AND energy costs. At COSTCO in Edison, a pair of CF's are $13, while others prefer the much cheaper $3 for a pair of 100W or 75W incandescents at an ordinary supermarket.
We have 7 CF's in our home, including 2, mercury-vapor 4', tube lights (the ones you see along the whole line of subway stations) to light our whole bedroom, and the energy costs are evident. We saved as much as 60 kWh per month.
"At COSTCO in Edison, a pair of CF's are $13, while others prefer the much cheaper $3 for a pair of 100W or 75W incandescents at an ordinary supermarket."
And when the TA buys hundreds of them, they are given a quanity discount so they don't pay $13 each.
Bill "Newkirk"
A pair of CF's is $13. Even better, the T/A should make that purchase. It will not need to install the 5-set bulbs if they use CF's. Probably 2 or 3 CF's plugged into that 5-set lamp will provide the same lighting that 5 incandescents gives off.
Those "5-set" lights are wired IN SERIES, which means that all five bulbs have to be present and working.
David
Well if MTA has those 3-set lamps they use for indicator lights in stations, they could plug the CF's in there. (Not using CF's for the indicator lights but in construction zones, etc.) Incandescents don't last long anyway. If MTA has the cheap ones, leaving it on 24/7 will only yield light for one extended month (31 days) and a waste of electricity into heat, instead of light.
If MTA will refuse, it's wasting its own money over time.
Did you know? 90% of the energy consumed by an incandescent is wasted as heat. They make great heaters instead.
"3-set lamps" -- holding lights and starting lights?
LEDs are being tested for those lamps. I would think they would be more appropriate for the purpose than compact fluorescents, since they are designed to be seen by Conductors, not to throw off light to illuminate an area (such as the platform). It should also be noted that neither holding lights nor starting lights are illuminated for any great length of time on any given occasion.
David
I know those should have indicator lights, not illuminating lights, but if MTA has any of those 3-set lamps for use in construction zones, instead of the 5-sets they do now, using CF's in the 3-set lamps will be much more energy-efficient.
Let's try this one again.
The bulbs used on those "sticks" are 120 volts each. They run off the 600-volt third rail and are wired in series, so each of the five bulbs gets 120 volts (120x5=600). Those CFs would have to be 200-volt bulbs (which, as far as I'm aware, are not manufactured) to run in a series of three (200x3=600). On the other hand, it might not be the worst thing in the world to try FIVE CFs on a "stick," though in an otherwise dark environment they might produce too much light, potentially creating a dangerous situation. Any track workers or Train Operators here care to comment?
In a station, yes, I think it might be worth trying CFs for the emergency lights, though they're not used too often (they ARE "emergency" lights, after all).
David
unless you personally own stock in some aspect of the energy cartel (a RICO group if ever there were one) replacing incandescents with ANY sort of more efficient lamp is the right step. (IMHO) The current generation of CF's offer many shades(color balances) of light even some which are dimmable.
The current generation of CF's offer many shades(color balances) of light even some which are dimmable.
My school's auditorium has dimmable "stick" lights (the ones you see all along the platform). How does that work?
On the other hand, it might not be the worst thing in the world to try FIVE CFs on a "stick," though in an otherwise dark environment they might produce too much light, potentially creating a dangerous situation. Any track workers or Train Operators here care to comment?
MTA should have light fixtures (preferably those 5-set lamps) that are capable of taking "Ohms", or resistance to plug up the sockets not in use. If there's any way to light 2 or 3 CF's in those lamps even if the set is wired in series... should we get an electrician to help?
Submit the suggestion to NYCT and let us know what the response is.
MTA New York City Transit
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
David
You wouldn't be able to just screw in 5 compact fluorescent
bulbs into the cluster. They aren't rated for 600V. I'm
sure you could obtain portable fluorescent fixtures that could
be clipped directly to the contact rail. I have no idea how
expensive they'd be and whether they'd save money overall.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 in a series implies 600 Volts as the primary, so that means the lights are powered off the third rail.
I have been to understand that flouescents won't work on DC. Are the "5-set" lights incadescent or CF's? If the latter, and the power is off the third rail, how did they manage to get CF's to work?
Or did I miss something in this thread?
At COSTCO in Edison, a pair of CF's are $13, while others prefer the much cheaper $3 for a pair of 100W or 75W incandescents at an ordinary supermarket.
That's pricey either way. At Home Depot I can buy a four-pack of compact flourescents (60w long-life equivalent) for less than $8, while a four-pack of soft white 60w bulbs goes for 96¢ (just bought some there last night), and the long-life 60w soft white go for $1.37 a four-pack.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have one CF and one incandescent in my bedroom fixture. The CF has been in for two years but I the incadescent blows about every month and a half.
Its also a pain for even me to change the bulb, I have 12ft ceilings.
Yeah, but you're 11 feet tall. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We MIGHT have given you extra credit if you had said that you had that Bronx "LUXURY Apartment" status of the fabled "sunken livingroom" associated with stylish Bronx living. 12 foot ceilings? Feh. :)
Nope, just a prewar apartment with gas connection for the fridge and radio antena built into the living room wall (two knobs).
Wow ... I had one like that once. Still had the gaspipes sticking out of the walls for the fixtures. Burnside Avenue. :)
I put CFs in every fixture in my house about two years ago. I have yet to change one bulb. I even have them burning 24/7 on my front and back porches -- they last a full year on continuously. My electricity bill went down about $10/month when I made the change. Fortunatley, the local electric company here (Boston Edison) was selling them to consumers at $1/each, and exhanging halogen torchieres for CF torchieres for FREE.
It would be interesting to see a study of NYCTA's savings in electricity, capital costs, and labor (bulb replacement).
They have been using CF capsule lights (the large ones) in quite a few of the tunnels - e.g. the "L" line, the #1/9 uptown, Broadway BMT etc. They even have blue ones to mark emergency exits.
wayne
I'd like to use them in more places than I do... I only have four installed in the house - one above the kitchen sink, two in closets (plus a conventional flourescent in the foyer closet that was there when we bought this house five years ago), and one outside on the back porch. Unfortunately, the ones that put out sufficient lumens aren't quite small enough to fit in some of the enclosed fixtures I've got, especially the one above the stair that blows every couple of months. (And we've got four fixtures that take the "flame" bulbs - one chandelier and three wall sconces - where even the smallest CF wouldn't fit.) When I think about it, though, I don't really have that many lights in the house at all... lots of windows that take care of things by day, the glow of our computer screens by night :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LIPA, Long Island Power Authority, covers rebates for CFs.
I bought three 4-packs @ $6.99 each and received a $3. rebate on each.
I now have a five bulb ceiling fan that went from 300 watts to 70 watts of warm white, I like the warm white over the coooool white.
The next time I'm at my mother-in-laws, when she takes a nap, her kitchen ceilfan gets the same treatment!
The industry has CF spot and flood lites now. Anyone use them yet?
Avid
Con ed was offering a rebate a few years back. I do not believe they offer it anymore.
I was wrong on the price I posted.
It was $6.49 plus tax then a three dollar rebate.
They, Home depot, give a rebate on any CF bulb.
You just have to fill out the postcard like form.
It would be acceptable to me to see the Court St Mueseum done in CF warm white bulks.
The long term expense vs slight lose in originality would be fair trade off.
I like the colors on the incandesant lite IND stations. They don't look so bathroom like as when lit by cool white tubes.
avid
The TA has been using fluorescent tube lighting in stations for
years. As Wayne pointed out, over the past decade, the tunnel
lights have been converted to CF. The emergency lighting, I would
think, doesn't amount to much in terms of energy or labor since
it rarely is energized. subway-buff jogged my memory: on earlier
lighting rehab contracts, there was a spot between adjacent tubes
for a cluster of 5 incandescents. In the most recent jobs, there
are U-bulb fluorescents in there. I don't think they are Compact
Flourescents, which have the ballast at the screw base. Placing
5 CF bulbs in a string for 600VDC is not likely something that
will work!
CF's also exist as tubes used in sockets driven by external ballasts. As the ballasts last several tube lives, they engender less landfill.
It is BTW my reccollection that lighting upgrades to then standard linear Fluorescent tubes was going on in the 60's--a welcome change by me. The change from dark catacombs to enough light to read by while waiting was great.
They are U shaped and whiel I do not disassemble, i can see they have pins and they seem smaller than standard 40 watt U shaped bulbs. Ttheree are two "lights" in there- one facing each way which I'll attempt to show with parenthesis.
-----
) |
( |
-----|
an example of this arrangement can be seen at 65th, Elmhurst, Grand on Queens Blvd, some fixtures in the F mezz at 14.6th downtown side.
I went 99 percent CF two years ago as a matter of civic duty. The exceptions are the kitchen, where we have a dimmer switch I intend to replace, and the front porch, which is on a timer. The fact that the front porch is still incandescent is unfortunate -- it is on eight hours per day. I recently bought a CF that says it works with timers. When the current bulb burns out, I'll put in in and hope for the best.
I think that one factor in the TA's slow move to CF is the lack of bulbs with wrong way screws. Since each CF costs so much up front (though less in the long run), it would be a good target for pilferage.
>>> I recently bought a CF that says it works with timers. <<<
Why wouldn't any CF work with a timer?
Tom
They work fine with timers, it's dimmers (and 3-way sockets) they have problems with.
I have counted all the CF's in my house- there are a total of 19.
wayne
True, but the expensive CF bulbs will last much longer and use less electricity. They usually pay for themselves well before they quit working.
>>> but the expensive CF bulbs will last much longer and use less electricity <<<
Is this true in a high cycle environment also? For instance, in a hallway with a motion sensor which will turn on the light whenever anyone enters and turn it off as soon as he leaves. Doesn't the starter take more energy with the flourescent than the burning, and aren't flourescent bulbs more sensitive to high on off cycles than long duration. Is it possible in such a situation that a 75 watt incandescent would be better than the light equivalent 25 watt CF?
Also, on an incandescent with a dimmer switch (other than an old fashioned rheostat), do lower light levels save proportional amounts of energy?
Tom
Are you saying that a 25 watt CF is equal to a 75 watt incandescent?
>>> Are you saying that a 25 watt CF is equal to a 75 watt incandescent? <<<
That is what they advertize on the packages. I have also seen 30 watts compared to 100 watts. The main lighting in my apartment is from 30 watt CFs, but I have had one 9" diameter circle CF (which was provided free) fail after only two years, and the replacement (bulb alone, not the ballast) cost $10.00.
Tom
I have had compact flourecents for about 5 years now. The package advertised a seven year life span and so far all except one whcih broken when i dropped one of my lamps is still burning strong.
The only Problem encountered with the bulbs was that they did not fit inside some of my ceiling fixtures. Newer bulbs are smaller and fit mor fixtures.
I have no knowledge of CF's at all. We have a light over our kitchen sink that is limited to a 60 watt incadescent due to the construction of the fixture. I suppose it has something to do with the heat generated. In our senior years we are finding that 60 watts is not bright enough. The light is on for about six to eight hours every evening. I'm wondering if one of these 30 watt CF's would work as a replacement bulb without causing more heat to the fixture, but would still provide a brighter light. We were thinking that to get more light we would have to replace the fixture with a flourescent tube type fixture, and that might get expensive.
Let's try this: Wattage refers to the amount of electricity used. To determine how bright a bulb is you need to compare another item "Lumens" which determiens hwo much ligth is given off. Look at any incandescent package and you'll see wattage as well as Lumens.
You can comare different types andf note hwo the lumens, even from the same wattage, differ. If you buy long life incadescents you'll sacrific lumens sicne they are designed for 130 volts (not the stand 110-120)
CFs also use lumens- check the lumens as listed on the packaging.
If they say a 30 eatt CF gives as much light as a 100 watt incandescent they are sasying that the lumens output is the same (or close).
Of course, heat output is a matter of the wattage so 40 watts woudl be cooler.
The CF has about 2/3 the heat output of its equivalent standard incandecent. You can actually touch a CF after it's been burning. They are warm to the touch and only get hot after you hold a finger on them for more than a few seconds.
wayne
That was the package I was referring to when I mentioned COSTCO at Edison. An average lifespan of 10,000 hours, beats the 750 hour limit on 100w incandescents (GE) or the long-life 1100 hour or so, 75 or 100w (Sylvania). I seem to have trouble in finding those "super" long-life bulbs with 4000 hours on them.
The CF's advertises that it will last 7 years based on a 3 hour usage per day. (But the CF in our main, living room is on from when we wake up (or I come back from school), until we sleep, but the brightness is not comparable to an incandescent.
It is true that during starting, which lasts a few seconds at most,
fluorescents draw more current than when lit. This is also true
of incandescent filament bulbs however the startup time is measured
in milliseconds. Frequent on/off cycling also shortens the life
of fluorescent tubes. It's tough to say where the break-even point
would be. Something like a closet or hallway light with a very
low duty cycle might actually be more economical to leave tungsten.
>>> Something like a closet or hallway light with a very low duty cycle might actually be more economical to leave tungsten <<<
I also notice that the CFs indicate that they should not be used in high humidity areas like bathrooms, although I have seen other flourescent fixtures used there. Is this something unique in the compact ballast?
Tom
Condensation on the little teeny circuit board can short it out - the elctrodes are FAR more distant on traditional fluoresent fixtures. That's why ...
>>It's tough to say where the break-even point
would be. <<
IIRC that was calculated decades ago. The number I remember for what we would now call obsolete electromagnetic ballast low efficiency tubes was 15 minutes. I would think the newer elctronic ballasted higher output tubes would have a "shorter" time. In turn, the latest CF's I have been buying have a 'slow' or 'soft' start and come up to full over a couple minutes. The theory is the slow start is both less current draw and less stressing to the lamp/ballast assemblage. The best news is that they are getting better.
CF's have one other operational problem. They don't like carrier control systems (like X10), as the trickle current used by carrier control signals (the digital signals are carried on the bottom of the AC sine waves) will cause the CF to flicker. Tried on in our lamp post and the CF would flicker. Since we like the X10 control of lights and small applicances, CF's are out for us.
I imagine that they could produce a better ballast which would strip off this sort of electrical noise and prevent the fluroescent tube from flickering. Most compact fluroescent lamps I've seen have a ballast that screws into the fixture's bulb socket as one would expect and have another socket on top which the replacable fluroescent tube plugs into. This way you don't have to throw out the ballast when the tube goes weak or dies. Additionally, you don't have to pay the cost of a new ballast whenever you replace the tube, so it would seem like a viable option to provide filtering in the ballast at an increased cost, as a one time cost.
Does the X10 produce noise in any of your radios or stereos?
-Robert King
A few manufactures were sellin the ballast and the bulbs separately. Pergaments home stores carried them before they went out of business. The bulb and ballast were sold together and replacement bulbs were also sold. The connector resembled the old 4 prong phone jacks
Does the X10 produce noise in any of your radios or stereos?
No.
The X10 lamp modules can be dimmed from 0 to 100%, so there's always a trickle current present. Appliance modules have no dimming feature, so they can be used for fluroescent lamps. My kitchen overhead is fluroescent, so the module that controls it is a non-dimmable internal module.
My outside lamppost is controlled by a X10 wall switch unit, which behaves like a lamp module. It has dimmable capability, so a CF flickers. X10 doesn't make a non-dimmable wall switch, so until they either do or I play electrician and put the same internal module in the under-porch junction box (where the cable changes from Romex to burial cable to get to the post). Since the lamppost is on from Sundown to 2:00 AM every day, I usually get to change the bulb 3 or 4 times a year. Cost of 4 bulbs is around $1.25, cost of special module is around 30 dollars, plus cost of CF.
We shall see.
True, but the expensive CF bulbs will last much longer and use less electricity. They usually pay for themselves well before they quit working.
Correct, as I've noted in earlier posts. My point in the above post was that Costco and the grocery stores are much more expensive than Home Depot for the same merchandise, that's all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been slowly converting to Cf for years, and now with smaller bulbs that fit in the globes and reduced cost (some for $3 and a four pack of Sunbeams for $14 at KMart), I'm down to only 3 fixtures left, (pantry and two in the dining room) and simply waiting for those last incandescents to burn out. sometimes they would all burn out in "waves", and the last two times, I said that was it, and then got most of the house replaced with CF. I even have one in the refrigerator! (a small candelabra style bulb that would fit on a C-9 Christmas tree light string. I got a atandard base adaptor-- I wanted the traditional flourescent "cool white" color, rather than the incandescent "soft white" (which has been copied by most CF's now). They also have a bulb that is almost appliance sized, and I just placed one on the range hood. I like the way they are shping some of them like traditional bulbs-- narrower on the bottom.
In the past, I have had a few of them go out on me, and with some of them, this seemed to be the ballast burning out. (others I could not tell. One may have been used in the Canal St. store I had gotten it from) Some of the ceiling fixtures are spotlight style "cups", and the bigger ballast of older bulbs ballast squeezed against the metal sides probably overheated. The new smaller ones do not touch the sides. So recently, I have not had any more going out, and a couple I have had for several years.
Of course, the holy grail of all lighting is LED's, but white LED bulbs are still expensive. The TA has been testing some blue ones a few places. The first one to appear is at 42nd St. 8th Av. line. Shaped like a CF, but with a smaller base a deeper blue color. The next batch went up forther down the line around Jay St., and then in the Euclid area. These are shaped just like the old incandescent tunnel bulbs, or like a 25w house bulb, not even having a base electrical compartment. LED bulbs use resistors instead of ballasts, and I got to touch one at Euclid, and it is completely room temperature! Even the CF's are heated by the ballast and become too hot to touch! It is also plastic and remarkably light weight. A new group is at the south end of Pacific, and uses a clear ribbed cover shaped like an old CF, but shorter.
I was saying, before the TA converts any more tunnels to CF, they should look into white LED bulbs, whenever the price comes down. That would save having to install new fixtures. CF's normally don't need new fixtures, but the one's they are installing are using the same Appleton fixtures as the mercury's, and sections that had the mercurys installed first simply changed over using the same fixtures. The ballast for the mercury bulbs was in a box next to the fixture, not in the bulb, I wonder how they do this. Maybe these are special bulbs that don't have ballasts (yet the base has the space for them), and operate off the same current as the mercurys. Or perhaps they disbled all those ballasts they had just installed for the mercurys. But then, why would new fixtures going in still have them. I'll have to check again today the new fixtures that have just gone on on the R line, if they still have the ballast box.
I installed a CF bulb in the hallway outside my front door in 1998. It's still going strong. Before, I had to change a bulb there twice a year.
emergency lighting in tenovated statiosn is still predominantly incandescent. Look at the space between the long tubes and you'll see a little lens housing five incandescent bulbs.However, the latest renovations are now using Compact Fluorescent (CF) with two U shaped tubes facing opposite directions.
If you consider the closed platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A and the G lines, some incandescents light up this area, but for the most part it is left dark. Also in construction zones in the tunnels, these "5-set" incandescent lamps provide additional lighting for the trackage.
Also there are incandescent "orange" indicator lights (I think) at the middle of the station as a 3-set. I forgot what this was for.
Can someone indicate the significance of this?
"Holding lights" ... keep the doors open when lit, close up when they go out. Green ones are "starting lights" at terminals - when lit, close up, buzz buzz ...
Thanks for your response. Another question. I think the signals use incandescents? no? Are they long-life incandescents since I've never seen a train signal unlit when it is supposed to be lit.
Very sturdy headlight type bulbs ... yes they DO burn out here and there, but it's rare. Signals are "vital electricals" so it takes a good number of years for "newfangled" things like semiconductors to make their way into signalling systems. It'll be a while longer before you see LED's out there ...
Don't they use two bulbs - one behind the other - that way if one blows out there is still an indication on the signal?
They probably do ... that's one that'll have to wait for Unca Jeff. The union got a bit twitchy about conductors and motormen opening up signal cases to see whazzup. :)
And LED's are being tested at Jay Street, at least; maybe in other locations as well. Not to mention the LED holding lights at Jay.
Try the local stations along Queens blvd.
If I remember correctly, the mezzanine level of 71 Av still has incadescent lighting. Same goes for the mezzanine level at Grand Av, but I think the lighting has been replaced with flourescent lights.
Grand Avenue, you are correct on - it has been re-lit. So have most of the others. I think 71 Avenue is still dim.
wayne
Nope, Continental was just recently overhauled. Also, the previous
upstairs lighting _was_ fluorescent. This job simply replaced
it with more modern fixtures and got rid of the incandescent bulbs
which were being used primarily for emergency lighting.
I wish those sodium vapore lights on most El stations were a little taller, to light a bigger area and reduce the radio active burns a tad.
For awhile there were heat problems at Aquaduct, melting the protective lenses.
The fluresent tubes on El stations get dim on extremely cold nights.
They seem to be protesting the cold.
avid
You'd be surprised how long some of the IND stations were still lit with just incandescents. Bergen and Carroll (F, G) and many of the A, C stations didn't get fluorescents till the mid 1980s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the last one to get flourescent light was Church Avenue, around 1988 or so.
wayne
I've been posting here for a while, and never thought to ask this, but it's always bugged me. Why does Atlantic Ave IRT, 34th St IRT and IND have an island platform for express, and side platforms for local, instead of two islands, like all the other express stops? Anybody know, or know where the info is on this site?
Ah, one of the most frequently posted questions on the board.
It was done to avoid crowding on the platforms by keeping passengers from transferring from the local to the express trains at 34th and Atlantic, since there is another express stop (42nd and Nevins) just north of both stations where transfers can be made (keeping the tracks just one level below the street at Penn Station also made for better clearance between the subway and the LIRR/Pennsylvania railroad platforms, though I think the tracks would have cleared even if they were built with the standard express configuration two levels below the street).
That reason is true for both 34th St. stations, but not for Atlantic Ave. Atlantic Ave. is configured like it is because it was a terminal for 10 years. Until the Clark St. line was connected to the Contract I IRT east of Hoyt St, all trains used the inside "express" platform only.
I think it was still planned that way to avoid cross platform transfers. Nevins Street is configured the normal way and if I'm not mistaken was even while Atlantic was a terminal. Atlantic Av has too many people transfering from the LIRR & the Brighton.
There was no Brighton line connection in existance when Atlantic Ave. was first designed. A transfer didn't exist until the 1970's.
Perhaps you're right. I tend to forget how important that LIRR/IRT connection was 70 or more years ago.
Although you could very well be right about no Brighton Line connection when the station was new, it was two different companies, the transfer definitely went much further back than the 70's. I remember changing between the Brighton & the IRT in the early 60's. You probably meant the transfer between the IRT and the other BMT Lines across the street at Pacific St. That transfer didn't come until the 70's or 80's. There was always a passageway as far as I could remember but two way fare control, you had to pay to go from one to the other. In other words the only way you could get from the Sea Beach, West End, 4th Av trains to the LIRR without paying another fare would be by going up to the street and crossing Flatbush. I never understood why they had that fare control, I doubt too many people paid it, it was too easy to go a few stops to Borough Hall for the transfer to the IRT or one stop to DeKalb to change for the Brighton.
"I remember changing between the Brighton & the IRT in the early 60's."
Interesting. That transfer is NOT shown on the official TA subway map from 1966 posted on this site. It IS shown on the unofficial 1967 map.
["Ah, one of the most frequently posted questions on the board"]
You ain't kiddin when you say that! I found this post by me three years ago on the same subject in the archives!!!
>>> I found this post by me three years ago on the same subject in the archives!!! <<<
Also interesting is how short the thread was compared to a similar thread on the board recently.
Tom
But if you notice, almost every poster in that thread are still regulars now.
They are set up like that to prevent local to express transfers at this point. With the large numbers of people coming up from Penn Station or the LIRR they did not want to generate extra bodies and movements on the platforms.
Even on some of my fantasy lines, I do the same thing for the same reason, and also to balance the loads on the trains. It will not do for everybody to pile onto an express train, and leave the locals standing in the platform empty.
Elias
So the short answer is "commuter rail?" THere is no 34th express stop on the Lex, and no one is piling into the subway from LIRR at Herald Sq.
Why the assumption that everyone will pile on the local? North of 42nd Street, the IRT locals are more crowded than the expresses.
Where expresses are more crowded, splitting platforms doesn't help. Say I'm going from 34th to Broadway-Nassau on the IND. The local has two more stops than the express, so I don't really care which I take, but the express has shorter headways, so I wait on the express platform and take the A (even if a C comes first), which in this case is generally more crowded. With a standard platform arrangement, I could have taken the less crowded C instead.
And of course the number of extra person-hours spent waiting by people who can and would take either train must be in the tens of millions by now. Lots of people, for example, go from 34th and 7th to GCT, and can take either train at 34th.
Tough... They ain't *my* 'peoplehours'! :)-
Yeah, but look at all the exersise these people get standing by the staircase, looking down the track, then running as fast as they can down and up to the other platform.
It was done to add more capacity and to keep people to ride the local train I believe. Plus, since there is major crowding at those stations, 2 island platforms would not be able to handle it.
Plus, since there is major crowding at those stations, 2 island platforms would not be able to handle it.
Correct... you *are* supposed to get ON the local, the express platform is to allow express passengers access to the RR Station.
I have no new hypothesis regarding the two Manhattan 34th Street platforms, but I believe that the reason Atlantic Avenue is three platforms is because it was the TERMINAL of the IRT Contract Two Brooklyn line.
On the 34 St platforms, on the IND it was done to force people to ride the local; see how CPW is designed no express stops from 59 to 125 St. On the 34 St platform on the IRT it was done for the same reason as the IND and also it was done to ease on crowding since two island platforms [the standard express configuration] would not be able to handle the crowds.
I would think if it was to force people to ride the locals, 42nd Street would be the same configuration. I think it was more to discourage cross platform transfers there with the large volume of people getting on or off from Penn Station. (or in the case of Atlantic from the Flatbush LIRR Station) But then again, on the other hand, 42nd has the PA Bus Terminal. Maybe that may be a reason for the lower level platform origanally, to relieve crowds on the downtown platform and that may be the reason they had an escalator from the mezzanine.
The Bus Terminal wasn't built until 1950. About 18 years after the 8th Avenue line was built. Word has it that the Lower Level at 42 St was built for the specific purpose of blocking the IRT Flushing line's plans to expand past its current Times Square terminal. We won't know one way or the other really until the IRT line is expanded to Javits Center.
I doubt the theory about the Flushing line obstacle is true.
It seems plainly obvious that the reason the lower level was built was to provide an aternative to the Queens Line/CPW Line merger in case passenger traffic was excessive at 42nd Street. If dwell times at 42nd Street were long, trains on either branch would back up. By providing a separate platform for the "E", three southbound lines ("A", "E", and "CC") could load and unload at the same time; the tower dispatchers could then decide which train went next.
From a functional standpoint, the 42nd Street lower level functions much the same way as the lower levels at both 50th/8th Avenue and 145th Street/St. Nicholas; the only difference is that in the case of the latter stations, DIVERGING routes are separated, as well as CONVERGING routes. When you really think about it, having separate tracks and platforms for diverging routes isn't really neccessary; the converging routes cause the bottlenecks.
In order to correct some of the design flaws of the older subways, the IND system has often been accused of being overbuilt in some areas; obviously; the lower 42nd Street station has not proven to be an essential design feature over the years.
Like I said We won't know one way or the other really until the IRT line is expanded to Javits Center. The route will either go under or thru the lower level at 42/8.
The principal use of the lower level was the extra far Aquaduct Race Track Specials. It gave them a terminal that they could start from.
Elias
Yeah, but the lower level at 42nd was built long before 1958 when the Rockaway Line was attatched to the system. SO that wasn't the original intent of the station, although did become the main use later.
"Word has it that the Lower Level at 42 St was built for the specific purpose of blocking the IRT Flushing line's plans to expand past its current Times Square terminal."
If so, they didn't build it deep enough. I did some careful measurements 6 months ago and posted the results here. Basically, all the 7 has to do is run on a moderate downgrade westward from the current end point and it will clear underneath the lower level of the 8th Ave station.
Well, no doubt there was steep competition between the three subway companies back in the day but 42 St LL blocking a westward extension of the 7, I really doubt that I think it was for short turns but you're right, we really won't know until the day comes where the 7 goes to the West side.
["we really won't know until the day comes where the 7 goes to the West side."]
Even if it does turn out the lower level blocked the Flushing Line it doesn't prove that was the intention of the city. It could very well be a coincidence. I think the IRT & the BMT had enough problems at the time that the last thing they were concerned with was expansion. I think the lower level is an urban legend, unlike the 76th Street Station which really exists.
I have a rant on this on the December 23rd Forgottenblog...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/forgottenblog/forgottenblog.html
So why does the Willets Point-Shea Stadium IRT station have a variation on this configuaration; The express track is available only from a platform it shares with the northbound local (which also has its own platform on the opposite side, which is not currently in use.) There is no cross-platform transfer between the express and the southbound local.
:-) Andrew
It was built that way to accommodate World's Fair crowds. The original station at this point was a few yards to the east of the current platform. There is still a mezzanine underneath the el structure where the original station was, and the Manhattan-bound local platform actually links up with it, though this portion of the platform is not in service.
--Mark
Willets Point BOULEVARD was originally a local station. It was modified for the 1939 World's Fair, which was when Flushing express service commenced.
>>>So why does the Willets Point-Shea Stadium IRT station have a variation on this configuaration <<<
The configuration was for the 1939 World's Fair. The idea is to have plenty of platform space for trains from Manhattan to unload, but make the people returning toward Manhattan make a choice of local or express on different platforms to prevent overloading one platform with riders for both types of trains. It still works for Shea Stadium.
Tom
That's a good way to ensure overcrowding on the express. Most people are going to Manhattan from Shea, and they'll all wait on the express platform. If a local pulls in first, none of them will take it. If they were waiting on a shared platform, some of them would opt for the local if it came first.
In addition to the inconvenience to those who can use the express but don't mind a local ride, it's specifically a problem on the 7 right around noon (I don't have the exact time, and neither do most passengers, which is precisely the point), when expresses stop running Manhattan-bound and start running Flushing-bound.
Others have given the real reason: the station was reconfigured after it opened.
From mta.info - last Manhattan-bound diamond-7 leaves Willets Pt at 1212, first Flushing-bound diamond-7 leaves Willets Pt at 1248. People would have to be pretty dumb not to notice there being no expresses for over half an hour at a time of day when they roughly know the direction's switching if they still wait for a Manhattan-bound express.
The point is that people just want to get angry and then don't want to admit when they're wrong. I believe people know around 12:30-1pm the direction of the express switch directions to go toward Flushing.
So somebody gets to Willets Point at 1213, thinks it's still 1211, and waits 15 minutes before giving up and crossing to the local platform.
Or the 1212 is running a few minutes ahead of schedule.
Or there's a GO and midday express service is suspended.
Static signs can't cover any of those. With a shared platform, the C/R on a local who notices people apparently waiting for an express can instruct them to get on the local, and a passenger who's wondering where the express is can easily ask the C/R or T/O of a local.
>>> So somebody gets to Willets Point at 1213, thinks it's still 1211, and waits 15 minutes before giving up and crossing to the local platform. <<<
And how often is that likely to happen? Most people think after noon, no express to the city. And if he thought it was 12:11 with last express at 12:12, he would not wait more than five minutes before changing platforms.
>>> Or the 1212 is running a few minutes ahead of schedule. <<<
Even less likely given the distance from the terminal.
>>> Or there's a GO and midday express service is suspended. <<<
Presumably a prominent "NO EXPRESS" sign would be posted before the stairs to the platform. It could even by an illuminated sign like the "NO VACANCY" signs on motels, turned on every day at 12:12 P.M., and turned off the following morning unless there is a GO.
>>> With a shared platform, the C/R on a local who notices people apparently waiting for an express can instruct them to get on the local, and a passenger who's wondering where the express is can easily ask the C/R or T/O of a local. <<<
Surely you are not suggesting the TA should or would spend the money to rebuild this minor station so that the occasional clueless passenger will be saved from having to go from one platform to another. It would be better to have the city bound express trains just not stop there at all.
Tom
And how often is that likely to happen? Most people think after noon, no express to the city. And if he thought it was 12:11 with last express at 12:12, he would not wait more than five minutes before changing platforms.
Maybe he had reason to expect that it was running a bit late.
Presumably a prominent "NO EXPRESS" sign would be posted before the stairs to the platform. It could even by an illuminated sign like the "NO VACANCY" signs on motels, turned on every day at 12:12 P.M., and turned off the following morning unless there is a GO.
Wishful thinking. There are no illuminated signs, and I highly doubt anything would be posted during a GO.
Surely you are not suggesting the TA should or would spend the money to rebuild this minor station so that the occasional clueless passenger will be saved from having to go from one platform to another. It would be better to have the city bound express trains just not stop there at all.
No, I'm only suggesting that the standard platform arrangement would have been preferable. You were arguing that the current arrangement is better. I think it has a number of problems.
>>> You were arguing that the current arrangement is better. <<<
I never suggested that this arrangement is better for present operations. I explained why it was built the way it was. When I first passed through the station in the late ‘40s, I could not understand why there was such a large virtually deserted station with nothing nearby. Later I learned about the World's Fair, and used the station to go swimming at the Aquacade pool on the fairgrounds.
Tom
Then I misunderstood your earlier post. I apologize.
Did expresses stop at Willets Point in the 40's and 50's?
>>> Did expresses stop at Willets Point in the 40's and 50's? <<<
They did. Both the 1948 map and the 1959 map show it as an express station. Back then, if there was a platform next to the track, the train stopped.
Tom
When did the practice of bypassing the Bowery begin? (It ended a few years ago.)
Didn't the quasi-express service between Myrtle and Bedford on the 14th Street-Eastern line run around that time?
When did the practice of bypassing the Bowery begin? (It ended a few years ago.)
December 11, 1988
No trains were ever scheduled to bypass the Bowery before December 11, 1988?
No trains were ever scheduled to bypass the Bowery before December 11, 1988?
Yup, it all started with the introduction of the J/Z skip-stop service on December 11th, 1988. Before that the J always stopped at Bowery. I guess the 80's was the lowpoint for Bowery, both in condition and ridership. It has gradually improved, and I think even ridership is a bit higher, and rising slowly each year, at least from what I have read here.
Now how come Z trains don't skip Bowery anymore? They stop there now but on maps & timetables they still don't recognize the Z stopping there
>>> Most people are going to Manhattan from Shea, and they'll all wait on the express platform <<<
If you are referring to times after an event lets out at Shea so there are huge crowds, I cannot imagine too many people who were going to local stops before QBP taking an express knowing they will have to change to a local in a few minutes, so they would opt for the local platform. Even some of those going to Manhattan would opt for the local platform if there is a disproportionate number of people heading for the express platform. BTW, since most sporting and other events at Shea end in the P.M. hours, is there special express service to Manhattan then?
If you are referring to normal morning service, those going to QBP and beyond would probably willingly let one local train pass since the express passes one or two locals between Willits Point and QBP. Since the purpose of the expresses is to take the long distance riders to their destinations while giving closer in commuters a chance at a seat on local trains there is absolutely nothing wrong with most of the riders at Willet's Point using the express. The only ones with a quandary concerning which platform to go to are those gong to Junction Blvd.
>>> it's specifically a problem on the 7 right around noon (I don't have the exact time, and neither do most passengers, which is precisely the point), when expresses stop running Manhattan-bound and start running Flushing-bound. <<<
A rather inconsequential problem considering the number of riders boarding there about noon time. It is easily resolved with signs in the station indicating the direction of travel of the express and the hours for each direction. It would surprise me if those signs are not there now.
>>> Others have given the real reason: the station was reconfigured after it opened. <<<
Huh? No, this is the station that was built to handle the World's Fair crowds and it was designed specifically for that purpose. The old side platform Willits Blvd. station was abandoned when the present station was built.
Tom
I'm referring to post-Shea events. Shea events, AFAIK, attract people from around the city, and most of the city isn't on the Flushing line. Most people heading home by subway from a Shea event need to take the 7 to Queensboro Plaza or beyond. I'd guess the Junction Boulevard and 61st Street crowds are negligible in comparison.
You suggested that having separate inbound local and express platforms reduces crowds on the express. I'm trying to figure out how.
With a shared local-express platform, a passenger who can use the express might opt for a local that arrives earlier, not knowing when the next express is scheduled to come. With a shared local-express platform, a passenger who can use the express might opt for a local that comes while an express is boarding if the express is uncomfortably overcrowded.
With separate platforms, passengers have to decide in advance where to go. Almost all will decide to go to the express platform. Once on the express platform, few will expend the energy to switch to the local platform, especially if there's a risk of missing a train in the process.
I pointed out in an earlier post that if I'm going from 34th Street IND to, say, Broadway-Nassau, I'll wait on the express platform and take specifically an A, even though A's are usually more crowded than C's, since the A has shorter headways and has a slightly shorter running time. Yet if I'm going from 42nd to Broadway-Nassau, I'll take the C if it comes first. The platform configuration at 42nd reasonably allows me that option; the platform configuration at 34th doesn't.
(AFAIK, there is special inbound express service on the 7 after Shea events. I don't speak from personal experience; I have no interest at all in spectator sports and have never been to a professional ball game.)
There are never expresses when I go back from Shea including for a subway series game on a Sunday night. I do understand the lack of express service when the game ends at 4 PM on a Monday though. The large inbound numbers combined with a failed signal right before Junction Boulevard did mess up service quite a bit though.
I do understand the lack of express service when the game ends at 4 PM on a Monday though.
With hindsight a 4-track line would have been a good idea.
>> There are never expresses when I go back from Shea including for a subway series game... <<
Indeed. I've never known of one either.
British James suggests that in hindsight, it might have been better to build a 4-track line. Remember, when the line was originally built, Shea Stadium wasn't even a gleam in any city planner's eye.
And when Shea was built (as an adjunct to the `64 World's Fair), good ol' Mr. Moses would never have thought to include a mass transit rebuild to get people to and/or from there faster, as he doubtless thought everyone who wasn't a low-life slug would be driving.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I don't think Shea was an adjunct to the '64 fair. It was outside the official fairgrounds, which were bounded by the LIRR tracks on the north, and my brochure of the 1964 fair shows nothing about events at Shea Stadium. There was a need for a new stadium for the Mets and Titans (later Jets) to replace the Polo Grounds.
>> I don't think Shea was an adjunct to the '64 fair. <<
According to a NY Times article some time ago, it was built with World's Fair money and was originally called "Municipal" Stadium.
You're correct in that no World's Fair events were held there, but it was built and funded as part of the Flushing Meadow Corona Park rehabilitation of the 1939 fairgrounds...the aforementioned NY Times had a big, well-illustrated article on the condition of the Fairgrounds, and they specifically included Shea Stadium as being part of the `64 construction complex.
I'll try to locate the article...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I have a question:
Wasn't Atlantic Avenue originally an island platform terminal for the IRT? Then weren't the extra side platforms and tracks added later?
Man they look crappy, like someone ran up and down trying to paint them in the ugly color that the redbirds were before being painted red. They are supposed to be shining not brown! Someone take the R-142 off the road and scrub them down, they look horribly dirty!
That sounds mighty grimy-brand new cars too - that's not the only new equipment wearing a coat of dirt - all the R143s on the "L" look pretty dirty too, they apparently haven't seen fit to wash them.
wayne
They are using the wash track at Canarsie for storage and would have to take the train to Coney to wash it. A nice 7 hour job though.
You guys complain about the appearance of the new subway cars, but why not take issue during the summer months when the older models (R32, etc.) have no A/C, much less a fan working. Granted, in the hot, dog days of August, being in an Air-Conditioned R142, R142A or R143 is THE best place to be. Get used to it, otherwise we will be beating down this dirty car issue for the next 40 years, with these models (If they last that long.)
Perhaps a bath in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Deleware will do some good...
Enough already with the R142-bashing! It's really getting tired. The R142s R142As and R143s are here to stay! Get used to it! The Redbirds' time is up. You get to have nice modern trains in DC. Give me one good reason why we in NY are not entitled to have modern cars too?
I dont' think they were knocking the R142's or R143's. They were saying they looked crappy because they are filthy. I had the same impression of the R143's on the L the last time I road them --- filthy! Why aren't they washing them?
I think it has soemthing to do with the spring in the middle of the cars. The TSS who I had in school car for the R143's, told me that the once on the R143's get stuck in the brushes of the wash. If they get washed someone from Car Equipment must tie them back to keep this from happen. So I guess that Car Equipment must not be sending someone over to do it, I know that the R42's get washed so it's not the wash itself. Since I work the L, I hate the why the R143's have been looking over the Last few mouths. I wonder if this is ture about the R142's, are any other line just as bad?
Robert
Yes, The R142's work the same way. I notice they also don't wash the R142A's that much however you see the R62's from the #4 Line using the wash at Westchester YD.
'Cuz they spark and burn when you get 'em wet. Only kidding ... hopefully. :)
More like a BSOD...example:
*The 2 train pulls into 66st on a late nite, station has leaky ceiling*
"This is 66-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6..."
Hello, we're NOT bashing the new cars were saying that they are losing their shiny new exteriors to grime and rust and it shouldn't be like that so early in their careers.
Face it R142s are here to stay.
Yuck! Think it's time to focus on the B Division for a while-most variety if you do not like the R62/R62A/R142/R142A once the Redbirds disappear.
And yes those R62 and R142As on the 4 are disgusting appearance wise-OMG!
I think Concourse's car wash was messed up or destroyed somehow. That may be the reason why these cars are so disgusting looking.
Anybody notice if the B and D have the same problem with their cars?
However, the cars on the #5 and #6 appear to be ok.
But yes these subway cars are our future-like it or not. But I prefer an R62 on the 4 over these clunk of junks anyday. And they're going to the 3 line anyday now. East Side will have all new trains next year. :(
#1301 4 Lexington Ave Express
Make way for the future!
So next year when you ride the #3 line, avoid the infamous Car #1391 (if it still runs, haven't seen it on the #4 line lately). Lightning does NOT strike three times in a row.
I rode it last year on a southbound 4 from 42nd to 14th. Rode just like every other R62 there except it seemed to sway more from side to side than other cars.
yea ! straight into da DRINK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give it up, Salaam, you ain't gonna win. Old is ALWAYS replaced. The Composites were replaced by the Hi-V's, which were replaced by the Low-V's, which were replaced by the R-12's and the 'birds. Now they are being replaced by the 142's. Do we like it - NO. Can we change it - NO!
I agree, some of them look like rustbuckets already and on the 6 rust/dirt is already forming especially around the outside intercom area and on the roofs, this is also evident on the R143's on the L too. Maybe they are in a budget deficit and decided to cutback on car cleaning ;-).
In snowy weather, everything gets dirty. The buses all become a nice shade of light brown whenever snow hits. The 4 and L are elevated in some parts, which I guess attributes to its dirtiness.
But I must say, the R142 trains on the 4 were already kinda dirty before the snowstorm hit.
Today (Dec.26) is a free listing day on eBay.
Here's what I listed today:
1974 LIRR (Long Island Railroad) Timetables
1973 New York Subway Guide (Map)
1969 New York Subway Guide (Map)
New York City Subway Map - December 2001
New York City Subway Map - 9/19/01
New York City Subway Map (Emergency) 9/17/01
Block Ticket - New York City Subway / Bus
Brooklyn Bus Transfers - 1973
Nice items.
BTW - did you ever notice that little clause at the bottom of NYC Subway maps issued since the 1990's?
It says:
"This map may not be sold or offered for sale without written permission fron the Metropolitan Transportation Authority."
I doubt if they will come after you but I just thought I would mention it.
For many who are familiar with the NYC subway system, all of the trains go in either two directions: Northbound or Southbound , regardless of how the route looks on the map. (Example, the 7 train. Logic dictates that the route runs east-west from Times Sq to Flushing. But according to NYCTA definition,to Flushing is NORTHBOUND, and to Times Sq is SOUTHBOUND. And I will not get into the confusion surrounding the Nassau St line and Chambers St.)
Now my question is how the direction of train travel is defined on WMATA. Is the Red line direction (Shady Grove to Glenmont) an East-West direction, or is it like Nassau St with the direction South until you get to Metro Center, then North to Glenmont? All of this despite the way it looks on the maps. All of the other routes are quite easy to determine the direction of train travel, so my question centers on the Red Line.
Actually, there's only two ways I've heard directions defined, one is by definition, i.e.---New Carrollton bound, Huntington bound and the other way is just simply, "inbound" or "outbound" with Metro Center being somewhat the core station for which all lines radiate out from. This probably came to be due to the fact that for the first several years of existence, Metro Center was the only TRUE transfer station (not including Rosslyn or Stadium/Armory) so Metro Center naturally became the central location for the system. Obviously with the Green & Yellow Lines now in operation, the distinction of inbound vs. outbound could also center around Gallery Place. To a certain degree, there's nothing "official", it's more based upon perception and since the Red Line was the original line, all things since Day 1 have centered around the original Red Line segment.
Metro Center is the central point. If you read the thread about route designations (although the subject says track numbers), you will see that routes A, B, C, and D all end/begin at Metro Center. E and F end/begin at Gallery Place. So yes, Metro Center is the central point on the system.
Most of the time, we just say "Shady Grove bound" or "Glenmont bound" if we feel a need to use a terminal in the direction. Announcements for elevator outages at stations often just say "The platform elevator at DuPont Circle in the direction of Shady Grove is out of service, shuttle bus service from...". Inbound and outbound are also used alot. One Red Line operator always says "Red Line, to Downtown Washington, and Silver Spring!" The Downtown Washington is dropped at DuPont Circle (although occasionally for whatever reason, it was dropped at Woodley Park). I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the "downtown" stations have smaller tiles on the platforms.
Thanks for the explaination. It reminds me of a similar set up at SEPTA concerning the Regional Rail trains. Here, they use "Center City bound" on all trains coming from either the Reading or PRR side, then when they get to 30th St (PRR side) or Market East (Reading Side) then they change the announcements to their respective outbound terminals (Example on the R7, trains from Trenton are announced as going to Downtown or Center City Philadelphia. This announcement is made until the train gets to 30th St, then the Conductor announces that "This is a Chestnut Hill East Bound Train".)
On the Subways, it's rather simple. The Broad St Line is Northbound/Southbound. The Market-Frankford Line is Eastbound/Westbound. And the PATCO line is the same as the MFSE.
I meant to say does this picture appear on the immediate posting grounds, or is further action required to view the photo?
Angelfire, Geocities and that Yahoo free web site (in fact MOST free websites) will NOT allow you to "remote link" to pictures there. Hopefully some others can point to some sites that will allow it - in my case, I *pay* for hosting, so I can do the direct linkages ... but it ain't easy to come by with those "free" sites because when you remote link, they don't get to toss out all those banners and popups that pay the bills for them ... all that appeared was "image hosted by Angelfire" and no picture ...
If that happens, it probably means that Angelfire does not allow for remote poting of photos. You probably have to upload your photos somewhere else if you want to post photos in message boards.
All it says is that the image is hosted by Angelfire.
Try uploading to another server if it permits remote linking.
OK then. I guess I'll just have to give you a link. At least better than nothing...
It must your browswers because I see the picture by itself and no banners at all.
*you* may have the picture in your cache from either viewing his website through the front door.
Elias
A forgotten fan once told me that LIRR platforms had a distinctive diamond pattern on the concrete. Is that true?
I got off at Beach 67th/Gaston Avenue Thursday and there was a diamond pattern, and of course, that line was 'captured' from the LIRR by the TA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"A forgotten fan once told me that LIRR platforms had a distinctive diamond pattern on the concrete. Is that true?"
Yes, on some of the older Pennsylvania R.R. era platforms the diamond patterns are there. What's left of the Jamaica platforms has them too, but with the rehab of Jamaica, they are disappearing.
Bill "Newkirk"
The same appears on the Aquaduct/N. Conduit platforms, also captured.
avid
I believe you can still view the diamond pattern at the Broadway station on the Port Washington line of the LIRR.
>>>I believe you can still view the diamond pattern at the Broadway station on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. <<<
That's my station and they aren't there. But, they were there on the recently demolished Auburndale platform.
Which reminds me...they recently did a complete reno of the Broadway stationhouse, which is only open in the AM hours on weekdays. Meanwhile, the platforms are crumbling, the shelter shed, made of tin, is freshly graffitied almost every day, and the waiting house on the PW bound side reeks of urine.
Yet, they reno'ed a perfectly acceptable stationhouse and didn't touch the part of the station that really needs help. Of course, vandals have already attacked the new glass panes that were installed as part of the renovation.
I wrote Frank Padavan, the local congressman about it, and some weeks later came a note from a guy at the LIRR saying they only budgeted repairs to the station house.
Any fool could see that at the very least, the crumbling platforms should have been fixed, not the stationhouse, which is underutilized...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am shock at the response that they gave you from the LIRR that the only available was to fix the stationhouse and not the remainder of the entire station. I guess the LIRR would rather have lawsuits of people tripping over holes and cracks in the platform than spending the money to fix the whole station the right way. Someone is dragging their on this....maybe a letter writing campainge to Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Schumer would help the cause....
So since Mta Managment decided to ask to remove the No Layofff clause,Who would be first to go?It would make sense for them to try to get rid of the Old timers in all titles but as we know that would be very difficult.What happens if they say there are to many Train operators,They can legally lay off employees who are not civil service vested.Which means less than 3 years of service.That means all those off the street T/O's which they made sure lasted would be first to go.I honestly dont think that would happen.Or on the other hand it could be a tool to make sure productivity is raised .Honestly if they laid off 300 t/o's I would try my hardest not to make waves and complain about workload.I can see why people in bussess are strongly against this ,merge garages then get laid off because of a surplus of operators for the same number of routes.
But in my honest opinion the title who gets it the worst are cleaners.
Most newer cleaners are former WEP workers.The made the most of an opurtunity going from welfare to gainfully employed city workers .How could they sleep at night wondering that in the next few months they might be right back on the welfare line?
Layoffs will be done following civil service law for those in civil service title. Done any other way is against the law.
Anyway under Civil Service law while the city is in a fininical crisis they can lay off PERMANANT Civil Service (and they have at the Dept. of Education 23 from my union that are permanant in tittle) so be warned.
Look to the Fire Department, their contract says if there is an increase in sick time use they can change the crew size on engines from 5 to 4 men. Bloomy is doint that now. There is a current law suit by the NYFD Union to stop the change because the increase in sick outs is due to 9/11 and NYFD not protecting its memebers properly.
Bloomberg WILL LAY OFF from EVERY department/agency. Don't give me the bull TA is State or non-mayor. They'll close booths and fire the Station Agents and booths they close won't be Times Square but some thing out in the hicks that the senior people work. Then according to civil service law those seniors stay on the job and bump junior ones but those senior people will have to work the junior booths.
Layoffs are going to happen no matter what.
(Layoffs are going to happen no matter what.)
Layoffs, tax increases, declines in services, fare increases, fine increases, etc. There is no way out now. The decisions that led to this disaster were made six months, 18 months, three years, and five years ago. Perhaps I can be relieved of my "Dr. Gloom" reputation for having said so at the time.
BTW, the plan seems to be to reduce this by borrowing even more money. That will mean that the taxes will have ratcheted up, and the services ratcheted down, for 20 years or more as the debts are repaid.
Layoffs, tax increases, declines in services, fare increases, fine increases, etc. There is no way out now. The decisions that led to this disaster were made six months, 18 months, three years, and five years ago. Perhaps I can be relieved of my "Dr. Gloom" reputation for having said so at the time.
Reduce New York's per capita spending to the national average, or actually to the national large-state average, and presto! the money problems will vanish. Gain, no pain.
(Reduce New York's per capita spending to the national average, or actually to the national large-state average.)
First of all, you can't reduce spending on debt service and pensions to the national average. That money is gone.
Second of all, the FEDERAL and STATE government pay for things elsewhere that New Yorkers are forced to pay for, a second time, in local taxes. If overall spending were at the national average, taxes would still be higher.
Third of all, if you pay people the same here as you do with in places with lower costs of living, you are in reality paying them less.
Finally, the national per capita average for mass transit spending would probably pay for the IRT, and perhaps not even that. And how do you average in places than don't have public water and sewer?
Reduce New York's per capita spending to the national average, or actually to the national large-state average.
First of all, you can't reduce spending on debt service and pensions to the national average. That money is gone.
Second of all, the FEDERAL and STATE government pay for things elsewhere that New Yorkers are forced to pay for, a second time, in local taxes. If overall spending were at the national average, taxes would still be higher.
Third of all, if you pay people the same here as you do with in places with lower costs of living, you are in reality paying them less.
Finally, the national per capita average for mass transit spending would probably pay for the IRT, and perhaps not even that. And how do you average in places than don't have public water and sewer?
Ooops. Misunderstandings like this are what happens when I don't preview before posting. What I had meant to say is reduce New York's Medicaid spending to the national (or big-state) average. I know that spending on most other things is not out of line.
(What I had meant to say is reduce New York's Medicaid spending to the national (or big-state) average. I know that spending on most other things is not out of line.)
New York's spending on Medicaid is high for a number of reasons, some of which are not New York's fault. It has more recipients because it has a high poverty rate, but because of the wealth generated by Manhattan and Manhattan-related suburbs its per capita income is still high, and thus it's federal matching share is low. Add in a cost of living adjustment for the health care industry, and New York's Medicaid spending is bound to be somewhat higher than many states.
But do we really need to pay more than double the national average PER RECIPIENT? I'd be happy to see Medicaid reimbursements per recipient cut to the average of New Jersey, Massachusettes, and Pennsylvania. Not a bunch of right wing states. But matching them would cut our Medicaid spending by ONE-THIRD, saving New York City alone $1.5 billion.
New York's spending on Medicaid is high for a number of reasons, some of which are not New York's fault. It has more recipients because it has a high poverty rate, but because of the wealth generated by Manhattan and Manhattan-related suburbs its per capita income is still high, and thus it's federal matching share is low. Add in a cost of living adjustment for the health care industry, and New York's Medicaid spending is bound to be somewhat higher than many states.
Medicaid's become sort of a self-perpetuating monster. A whole industry's grown up around it, from Medicaid mills to nursing homes to (way too many) hospitals, and this industry has built up a great deal of political influence. Any cuts will be fought to the (metaphorical) death. And let's not forget 1199, whose influence is so great that even Pataki has become its lackey.
But do we really need to pay more than double the national average PER RECIPIENT? I'd be happy to see Medicaid reimbursements per recipient cut to the average of New Jersey, Massachusettes, and Pennsylvania. Not a bunch of right wing states. But matching them would cut our Medicaid spending by ONE-THIRD, saving New York City alone $1.5 billion.
California also may hold some lessons. It's economically and socially quite similar to New York, yet I've heard it's done an excellent job of managing Medicaid costs via its "Medi-Cal" program. How this is done, I'm not quite sure, but New York might do well to follow its example.
Florida may be a useful case study too. One would think that the state's being eaten alive by Medicaid costs due to its large elderly population, which means high demand for nursing home services, yet I haven't heard of any terrible problems.
>>> California also may hold some lessons. It's economically and socially quite similar to New York, yet I've heard it's done an excellent job of managing Medicaid costs via its "Medi-Cal" program. How this is done, I'm not quite sure, but New York might do well to follow its example <<<
California has held down costs by reducing the definition of "medically indigent" to the level where most working poor do not qualify, and go without any medical care until something like cancer, TB, or other disease is advanced enough that it can no longer be ignored, and cutting payments to health providers (sometimes retroactively) to the point that most doctors will not take new Medi-Cal patients (most will continue to treat long time patients who have fallen on hard times). Doctors say they cannot pay their office overhead on the amount paid, and that payment is usually delayed 9-12 months. In other words, general practitioners lose money on each person treated.
The only doctors who seem to want to treat Medi-Cal patients are those few with a real Mother Theresa complex, or those who have factory like understaffed clinics specializing in five minute examinations and over treating everyone to maximize their Medi-Cal recovery.
Emergency rooms, which by law cannot turn away anyone, have become the main source of medical care for the poor, who may have to wait in excess of 24 hours for treatment of less urgent maladies which should be treated in a doctor's office.
Medi-Cal is not a successful health care delivery system. California has long been a state which exploits poor workers, and its Medi-Cal program fits that image.
Tom
(Doctors say they cannot pay their office overhead on the amount paid, and that payment is usually delayed 9-12 months. In other words, general practitioners lose money on each person treated.)
Just so Old Tom doesn't get the idea that California is worse than New York in anything, New York's payments per recpient for DOCTORS are far lower than California, among the lowest in the country. The high payments go to hospitals, nursing homes, and other better organized groups.
>>> The high payments go to hospitals, nursing homes, and other better organized groups. <<<
It sounds like those better organized groups are the ones with political clout. Here in California, for profit hospitals make their money by cutting out the traditional charity services such as emergency rooms and clinics, and charging outrageous rates to anyone without insurance while discounting their services to private insurance companies. Poor people go to county hospitals at the taxpayers' expense. Nursing homes do get a lot of Medi-Cal payments, but judging by the scandals that have emerged, they make their profits by skimping on services to their patients, and paying minimum wages to most of their employees.
Tom
At the risk of remaining off-topic, do we dare turn more of this over to the state? A single industry perfectly balanced to the needs of its constituency and able to restrain itself from influencing elections? We'd either have too much Medicaid or (a la TA) too little, wouldn't we?
"Trickle down" ... embrace the orb ... FAR better than what MONICA did. And *FAR* more damaging to *your* wallet, and NOBODY'S getting laid. :(
That's because most of the Republican leaders are too old to get laid. Clinton and JFK were pretty young, so they got chicks. However, Pataki's got so many favors to repay that he has no time to chase interns:)
Not to worry, the Paturkey isn't lonely. He's got Bruno to keep him warm at night. :)
The city and state need to finally bite the bullet and streamline thier operations.
NYC and NyS taxes are higher then the national average because the state keeps borrowing more and more money instead of stremlinig operations. As long as the MTA is operated by a board similar to the board of education, no meaningful realignment will take place reducing the MTA bloated operation.
The Board of educations for years stated it reduced it's central administration. In reality it moved the job out of the central board and added it to one of the community school boards. It took a mayor who has his priorities straight and that is to educucate children to clean up the board of miseducation. The mayor has alreasy illiminated over a 1000 usesles jobs including combining two construction agencies which basically contridicted each other which costs the city twice as much to build a school as any other place in the country, Reducing the number of community school districts in half. The city will begin to rollout a new attendence monitoring system that will further reduce the need for paper pushers and provide parents and administrators real time information on who is in class and who is not. These cost reductions will allow more money to be spent where it is belongs, educating children.
The MTA needs to do the same. Every unneeded tooken booth and obsolte adminstrative job illiminated could mean additial train service or a reduction in taxes. Tax reduction equal more private sector jobs.
The mission of the MTA is to move people from point A to Point B. It is time to move the focus back in that direction. The best way to get this doen is to appoint a chairmen of the MTA that has real power to enact these changes and reports DIRECTLY to the GOVENOR and not some FACELESS BOARD.
NYCT already looks like it's firing the first salvo in lay-offs. Take the newest Metrocard ad on the ends of the subway cars, for instance.
"...We'll miss you at the station booth, but we will see you on the train or bus."
This means they want you to buy the Metrocard at the neighborhood store where you buy your newspaper instead on the token booth. In this way NYCT can claim station agents are less productive and start giving out pink slips to them. 370 Jay street and 2 Broadway does have some slick bastards working in those buildings.
2/3 of all station agents are unneeded.
Period!!!!
It is a $250 million dollar cost that is robbing the riding public blind
Many station such as Kings Highway on the brighton line have 3 station agents on duty from 6am to 10 pm daily within a one block radius. Plus 3 newstands that sell metrocards. 2 drugstores that sell metrocards. In addtion 70% of the traffic into the station is from people comming off a city bus thus no need to buy a metrocard.
If the MTA would streamline its operations including upper management, there would be no need for a fare increase. People need to realize that money wasted on spending on obsolete jobs is money not spent on improving mass transit and drives up taxes and chases private sector jobs out of state
First of all, the north side of Kings Highway is staffed from 7AM to 10AM and again from 4 to 7 PM, not 6AM to 10PM as you noted. I also do realize like we don't need THREE 24 hour booths at 42nd St/PA Bus Terminal station, or two full time booths at 145th st and 181st st stations, all on the IND/8th ave line. But station agents are a necessity, and NYCT has done NOTHING to assist the NYPD in arresting scam artists who jam MVM's at UNMANNED subway stations, putting a even bigger hole in their revenue.
You always tell us ways that NYCT needs to slash the workforce, how about standing up for ways to eliminate fraud and theft in our transit system, we use everyday for a change. People shoud stop buying rides from a Metrocard con artist by giving them dollar bills or tokens then being "swiped" in.
BTW, a footnote: Ever notice that when NYCT renovates a station, a part-time booth is permanetly closed to make way for those HEET's? Just look at Tremont Ave/Concourse line (179th St Exit), or Atlantic Ave/BMT (Hanson Place exit)
Good! A full-time unattended entrance is both safer and more useful than a part-time booth.
Looking back at kings hwy (north entrance on the Q) there is ONE Metrocard vending machine. There is a good need for this entrance and putting in HEETS won't cut it.
It is there for SAFTEY, just imagine if the entracned was unmanned with maybe 3 HEET, the B82/B7 stop there and during rush it is "frequent service" and the B82 is famous for bunching (4 buses come at once). Now how are all those people going to get through 3 HEET's and one MVM (okay maybe 2 if you take the booth out)??
They will be running across the street between the lights in traffic to get in the 24 hour entrance.
3 HEETS 3 Turnstyles = the same amount of access to the station. If the tooken booth would be removed there is more room for more heets. With a full time booth directly across the street there is no need for more MVM's if the choice is more HEET's vs MVM's
"They will be running across the street between the lights in traffic to get in the 24 hour entrance."
Unfortunitly this is the case at AVE U on the brighton. A few years back the MTA decided to close the exit at the front of the coney island bound train which leads to the south side of ave u where the kings plaza bound B3 stops. The result is B3 riders (including myself) have to dodge cars and throw oneself in front of the B3 inorder to catch the bus. Lord knows that bus is the king of bus buching(waited 40 min for the bus last nihgt with 8 min service) The entrance had a MTA staff member who stood in front of the gate to allow people to use the exit during rush hours only. Rather then installing an iron maiden they simply boarded up the exit. All that would need to be done to reopen the exit is to replank the platform, and install an iron maiden
Actually 3 HEETs does not equal 3 turnstiles. Throughput on the HEETs is lower than that of the turnstiles.
David
"Throughput on the HEETs is lower than that of the turnstiles."
That's for sure. They take a lot longer to get through than turnstiles. They also take up more space, so often fewer HEETS can fit in the space than the current number of turnstiles.
Fortunitly most stations have plenty of room to spare. In the case of kings highway north side. Removing the tooken booth adds room for more heets
"It is a $250 million dollar cost that is robbing the riding public blind"
It's the public who wants them. NYCT could reduce station agents faster by attrition than they currently are. They have a huge sales job to do to persuade the public that the stations will still be safe with fewer station agents.
There will also be major capital expenses to install HEETS in places where agents go away. This expense will get a good return on investment, but given the budgeting process it is still an issue.
Also, in many places where agents have been removed, the HEETS are too few in number, causing long lines and pissing off the public even more.
The MTA definitly needs to educate the public. The mta needs to point out how much it costs vs. the bennifits recieved. The bennifits recieved are far fewer then many station agent advocates state.
It is not the public who blocked the MTA's efforts last year as much as it was the local politicians who are in search of reasons why they should be re elected. The local state senator in sheepshead bay was all over the local newspapers when the MTA preposed closing the part time token booth at sheepshead bay station. He stated that crime would skyrocket. In reality this entrance is unmanned except for 4 hours during the morning rush hour for over two years now with no problems.
The mta has quietly reconfiguered a few stations such as 14th street Union square to be have less station agents. Even with the reconfiguration the 16th street entrance should add more heets and be unmanned (there are major backus at the heets when the booth is closed). This station has the added bennifit of having a police station inside and realistially would be the perfect canidate 0 station agents.
"Also, in many places where agents have been removed, the HEETS are too few in number, causing long lines and pissing off the public even more"
I agree 100%. A good example is 34th street east side. When the station agent is not on duty there is only two heets backing up people both entering and leaving the station. To make the plan fly they must properly equipt stations with the proper amount of HEETS. There is no problem with the MVM' even at a station where many tourist and day visitors buy more metrocards then the average commuter station such as kings highway. The MTA has not helped it's case by having two few heets at this station.
I agree, try standing in line at the 16th Street side of Union Square station, or at the 32nd Street/Broadway side of 34th Street station. There are only 4 HEET's and too many customers use these entrances, not to mention the people who exit these same HEETs and cause an inconvenience for those who try to enter the station.
Unfortunitly I use the 34th street east side entrance 4 to 5 times a week. It is defintly a problem that needs to be adressed. There is only two heets available.
The problem is more heets are needed. The MTA needs to add more heets and remove the normal turnstlyes. Even more exit only heets would do the trick as much of the problem.
Don't be fooled: that's $250 million fewer dollars in their budget. That money would be siphoned somewhere else. This is a STATE agency and if you cut too much "excess" money at once, the budget folks will say that the agency is wasteful and will actually make a cut LARGER than $250 million. This would hurt service.
Lou ... buddy ... I won't shirt ya ... the CITY lost ALL power with the formation of the "Municipal Assistance Corporation" and the "Financial Control Board" (look 'em up on google) ... the CITY exists *SOLELY* as a puppet regime, and has since the 70's ... JOE BRUNO (despite that horsesheet the TIMES has today) rules. Bloomberg has a handful of appointees on the MTA who are FAR outnumbered by the state, Nassau and Westchester. Not to argue with you, but merely to say, here, go look it up. Unca Selkirk is seen to be "partisan" ... I am, I'm on the regular person's side, and that leaves me out in the dark with so many others. :)
And you're RIGHT ... Civil service law says ... "FIRST go the "provisionals," MMMMMmmmmmBYE! Provisionals HAVE no status. NEXT got the "probationaries" ... both classes of employees have no "severance" rights under CSL. OMCE ("Management Confidential") are NEXT. The law requires abolishing "provisional" or "at the whim of the governor" employees first, and normally a blood-letting at the "almost in the door" without nailing APPOINTEES is of the highest priority. The nailing of provisionals and probationaries, along with "attrition" and "early retirement incentives" usually takes care of it before those on a "permanent status" get nailed. THIS time will be different. :(
Early retirement packages in the past few years have pretty much attritioned the attrition. OMCE *still* won't get toughed without a rewrite of the internal MTA rules that would abolish "committees" and "official compliance officer of the sausage third gear lubrication constabulary and advisory steering committee pro tem" ... so the layoffs would require a TELL-TALE sign, since under civil service law, people and jobs not in violation of policy CANNOT be fired, once "permanent."
The BIG dirty secret will come under THESE terms ... "RECLASSIFICATION OF TITLE" ... new RTO and other titles will be suddenly created as "promotional pathways to excellence" or similar.
In order to layoff civil servants, a TITLE on the LINE ITEM for an agency must be "abolished" ... firings of permanents are ONLY done under the "elimination of a title" wherein everyone *IN* that civil service title is GONE ... what is customarily done (was done for me several times, so I can attest) is that NEW titles are created with fewer "bearers" and "appointments TO the new title as a provisional" [yep, the OTHER can of worms]). Those who suck up or are so urgent to an agency, that they will IGNORE your "abrasive manner and constant OBSESSION with politics, though on the wrong side of the fence, but hey, the LIGHTS stay on when you're here, and they go out when you're not, we'll ignore YOU" types and MOVE you to a "preserved promotional title pending Civil Service approval of the new title and a competitive test and scoring zone adjustments" ... What a WHACKY WORLD Civil service is ...
Those left BEHIND in an "abolished title" get the street on a permanent basis. When the politicos and agency heads PROMOTE on a provisional basis, those who scoop poo, they're PROVISIONAL (and in danger) ... but the class of employees headed for the slaughterhaus remaining in that "abolished title" can have 0.1 to 40 years on the job, and they're JUST as much 12-9 as far as Paturkey goes.
Civil Service Rule 0 - Suck it ... if it's hard, JUST SUCK IT. :(
There is no "buy out" or "incentive" the UNION has to agree to it before it is offered and all the city unions (DC37, Local 237, CWA 1180) all turned it down.
They can also say "no more Office Assoicates" will be employed at this city agency and even a senior premanent person goes.
First go the Hourlys, then the Provisonals, the the Probable Permanents (those on probation) then the Permanents. In the 23 I sited there were no provisonals in title (PAA).
Funny, all the TEMPS get to stay, they can't let em go until June when the contract runs out. If they fire em, they still have to pay the temporary agency so I've had coworkers that are provisonals fired while Temp people stay doing the same job. Now that STINKS!!
Looks like the city had some bad concepts in hiring practices - for the STATE generally, the only temps that are permitted are short term, like at Tax season (though that's all been contracted out to banks now) and some agencies can hire temps for up to a MONTH. But if that's the way they've feathered things down there, the unions REALLY screwed up in allowing that. But under civil service law, here's how it goes ... anything else is a violation of law ...
Layoffs and Preferred Lists
Criteria for Having Rights
CSL § 80.1 80.a.1 85.7(l) CSR § 5.5(c) 5.5(d) 5.5(g) 5.6(c) 5.6(d)
Layoff is a term commonly used whenever an employee is separated from State service because of economic or program
reductions. However, not all employees who are laid off are entitled to rights under Sections 80 and 80-a of the Civil Service
Law. Generally, to have retention, displacement and/or preferred list rights, the separation must occur because of the abolition
of positions and employees must be permanent employees of New York State in:
a competitive class position,
a labor class position for at least one year, or
a non-competitive class position of a non-confidential or non-policy influencing nature for at least one year.
Within a title within a layoff unit, employees meeting the above criteria have rights to be retained over provisional, probationary
or temporary employees.
Seniority
Where some but not all permanent employees will be retained, retention is based upon date of permanent appointment to a
position in the classified service, with the least senior employee being laid off first. An additional 30 months and 60 months
seniority are given to veterans and disabled veterans, respectively. A spouse domiciled with a veteran having a 100 percent
service connected disability receives 60 months additional seniority. Employees who are blind are given absolute preference in
retention; they are considered to be more senior than all other employees in the same title.
CSL § 80.2 80-a.2
Seniority is calculated based upon continuous service. Continuous service for layoff purposes is defined similarly to continuous
service for purposes of seniority credits on a promotion examination; i.e., intervening periods of employment on a provisional or
temporary basis or in the unclassified service do not interrupt the continuity of the service. Continuity is interrupted by a break
in service of over one year. However, no previously gained credit is lost for absences of under three years. Any period of
absence in excess of three years is deducted pro rata from seniority credit earned before the absence.
Layoff Units
CSL § 80.5 80-a.3 PR § 72.1
Layoffs in the State are made among employees in the department where the abolition or reduction occurs. However, the
President of the Civil Service Commission may, by regulation, designate separate units for suspension or demotion. These
include any State hospital, institution or facility, or any division of any State department or agency, or specified hospitals,
institutions and facilities of a single State department or agency within a particular geographic area.
Bumping" and "Retreating"
CSL § 80.7 CSR § 5.5(a) 5.5(a)(1) 5.5(a)(3)
Competitive class employees may often have an opportunity to displace other less senior employees in the layoff unit through
either bumping or retreat. Exactly what may occur in the case of bumping varies with each situation, but generally, the employee
will displace the least senior employee, provided he/she has greater retention standing, in the next existing lower occupied title in
direct line of promotion. Non-competitive and labor class employees do not bump since there are no direct promotion lines in
these classes.
CSL § 80.7 80-a(5) CSR § 5.5(a)(2) 5.5(h) 5.6(a)(1) 5.6(h)
If no lower level occupied positions in direct line of promotion exist in the layoff unit, competitive class employees may have
retreat opportunities. Non-competitive employees also have retreat rights. Labor class employees may not retreat. Retreat
means that the employee, provided he/she has greater retention standing, may displace the least senior individual in the layoff
unit who occupies the last lower level title that the employee held on a permanent basis.
Placement Rosters
CSR § 5.8
Prior to the date of layoff, the names of permanent employees expected to be displaced must be put on a placement roster. If
the placement roster includes an eligible who is willing to accept the appointment, use of the open-competitive and promotion
lists and transfers from other than placement rosters are blocked. All employees on these rosters are equally reachable for
appointment. Appointments made from a placement roster are treated as transfers and require a probationary period.
However, as with any transfer, the appointing officer may waive the probationary term.
CSR § 5.8(c)
Placement roster eligibles who refuse a transfer, fail their probationary periods or are not appointed become preferred list
eligibles as of the date of layoff.
Generally, placement rosters are established only for the titles in which employees facing layoff are currently serving. However,
in some cases a placement roster may be certified for other appropriate titles. The employee must be given 20 days notice of
the impending layoff.
Preferred Lists
CSL § 81.1 81.2 CSR § 5.5(g) 5.6(g)
Laid off and demoted employees are certified to fill positions from a preferred list. On any particular preferred list certification,
employees are ranked according to heir preferred list adjusted seniority. Inclusion on the preferred list certification depends on
several criteria:
whether the title to be filled is the same title, a direct line title or a comparable title;
whether the position to be filled is in the employee's former layoff unit or another layoff unit;
whether the employee was a probationer or had completed probation at the time of layoff,
whether the position is permanent or temporary and whether the employee has indicated a willingness to take a
temporary position;
the geographic location of the job and whether the employee has indicated a willingness to work in that county;
the previous declinations and reinstatements of each employee.
Given these criteria, it is apparent that an individual's rank may vary widely on different certifications.
Preferred List Reinstatements
CSL § 81.4
Appointing officers must either reinstate the number one eligible willing to accept appointment or leave the position vacant.
There is no probationary period upon reinstatement from a preferred list, unless the laid off employee was on probation at the
time of layoff. Such employees must complete their probationary periods when reinstated. However,a preferred list eligible
reinstated to a traineeship position would be on probation for the length of the traineeship.
Term of Eligibility
CSL § 81.1 81.5 81.8 CSR § 5.7 5.7(c)
An individual's name may remain on a preferred list for a title for up to four years, unless permanently appointed to a position at
the same salary grade. Eligibles who decline a job offer may retain some eligibility or be removed from the list, depending upon
their salary grade and county of layoff. It is also possible to be allowed to be inactive on the preferred list and reactivated at a
future date for good cause. Eligibles reinstated at a lower salary grade retain their preferred list eligibility for higher grade
positions.
Preferred list eligibles are considered permanent employees for purposes of qualifying for promotion examinations. However,
time on the preferred list does not count toward the amount of service required and does not interrupt continuous service for
seniority if an eligible is reinstated from the list.
Reemployment Rosters
CSL § 81 -a 81-b
Reemployment rosters are intended to provide additional employment opportunities to laid off employees. Competitive class
employees are placed on reemployment rosters for selected titles other than preferred list titles based on the similarity of duties,
minimum qualifications and examinations. Non-competitive and labor class employees are placed on reemployment rosters for
titles for which they are qualified for appointment. Former employees on reemployment rosters do not appear in rank order;
that is, any individual on the roster may be appointed. Upon appointment, the employee must serve an appropriate
probationary period. Reemployment rosters consisting of former permanent employees must be used to fill positions for which
no preferred lists exist before placement rosters, eligible lists or other methods of appointment may be used.
During a declared emergency, every public officer or employee is authorized to request absence and will be deemed to be on a
leave of absence while employed in his/her preference as a volunteer firefighter or enrolled member of a volunteer ambulance
service, subject to supervisory approval.
Current wisdom would dictate that the cleaners and other 'labor class' employees would be most vulnerable. The TA has been floating the idea of privatizing the cleaning of trains, busses and stations for years. After all, compare the salary of cleaners in the private sector with the $18+/Hr. that NYCT cleaners earn before night differential and benifits.
The Dept. if Ed has been trying that for a few years now. A cleaner at a school at $14+ an hour compared to a company like Tempco (cleans office buildings) with their average cleaner at $7 to $8 an hour. While it works for the office buildings, it is not working out taking office cleaners and putting them in a school environment and the differences found there.
I wonder if it will work for transit.
Office cleaners do not have to deal with rat orgies at the dumpsters or cleaning up female bum piss which is MUCH worse than male bum piss.
Plus the usual vomit of diseased people and heaven help anyone working New Years.
In no particular order:
>People who have the time/age to go out but haven't left.
>People who were last hired.
>People who used up their sick time and probably will go sick again.
>People on restricted duty jobs.
>People who are known trouble makers.
Before TA can lay off anyone, they will try to:
>Fire people.
>Force people to quit.
>Suspend people.
All for the sake of saving money!
"It would make sense for them to try to get rid of the Old timers in all titles but as we know that would be very difficult."
Why would you think that this makes sense? In the TA, an enployee, after 3 years is at top pay. After that, there is no difference in benifits (save the extra week of vacation after 15 years). In the meantime, these employees are no better and no worse than their younger counterparts when it comes to sick leave or discipline.
Under your senerio, the only party that would be concerned would be NYCERS. However, the longer employees stay beyond their retierment age, the less they are likely to collect from their pensions over the course of their retired lives.
The problem are the titles that are no longer cost effective. Because of salaries and benifits, the MTA /TA has found that out-sourcing these titles would be far more cost effective. By this, I mean, due to outdated workrules and union-management contractual constraints, workers subcontracted from the private sector could do more work for less $$$ and with greated accountability. Thiis would also mean, in most cases privatizing the supervisory staff for those functions.
eBay Item No. 2150575136; bidding closes this afternoon.
When the 33rd Street station on the IRT Lex line was rehabbed, bright yellow incandescent lights were installed over the fare control area. I really like the way they look and I was hoping that more stations would have that lighting, but so far, that's the only one.
Those are not incandescent, they are sodium vapor. Same kind as installed at Utica Avenue IND.
wayne
And, they have a very strange effect. Low pressure sodium vapor lamps alone make dark-skinned people look purple. Very strange looking. High pressure soodium vapor lamps (used in street and highway lighting) don't.
and cortlandt and whitehall
Also, some of the elevated stations on the Broadway elevated (Lorimer St, Hewes St) have sodium vapor lamps
This past Wednesday I was sufficiently recovered from a long, nasty bout of bronchitis to do some railfanning. Somehow I was able to do all the following on ONE Metrocard fare:
Around 12:30 amidst heavy, windswept rain took Q44 to Main/Roosevelt, where most stores were open. Got R62A 7 to Times Square.
3 to Atlantic Avenue. Water pouring like sieve onto parts of platform both there and at Nevins. Very slippery stairway to Pacific platform where R32 N was waiting.
Nice, fast express run through 25th. Changed at 36th for W, which unfortunately was 68A. Rainy ride in mostly empty car all the way to Coney. Verrazano barely visible. Many stores along 86th Street appeared to be open. Every W the other way was 68A except 32(!) at 62nd and plain 68 at Bay 50th.
Exited fare zone at Coney for F shuttle bus. Many gypsy cab hustlers on Stillwell; one got PO'ed when I rebuffed his repeated aggressive advances by asking if he took a free Metrocard transfer. Rode bus through wet snow to Avenue X; used restroom at Shell Lanes, which was open and very busy. Re-entered fare zone to surprisingly find that turnstile reader read "X-FER OK". Considerably more than 2:18 had passed since I originally left home.
Had to go through many cars of waiting R46 before finding one without unhygienic homeless. R32 passed the other way at Kings; this was about the fourth time I narrowly missed getting a railfan window for Culver, but figured it would be too long of a wait to make standing on a cold, windy platform worthwhile. Very heavy rain on Smith/9th viaduct; skyline and heavy traffic on BQE barely visible.
Changed across platform at Jay for A, also infested with homeless and a mysterious "man in the rear car" whom the conductor yelled at to release the door at every stop through West 4th. Very speedy (for an R44) CPW express run- we fairly thundered from 81st through the downhill at 103rd.
Exited at 168th for muggy elevator ride to 1 platform, which felt enough like a greenhouse that I had to undo my coat. Virtual waterfalls from ceiling to platform and tracks at several places. Train windows were extremely fogged up. Emerged from 135th portal after more than hour underground to see very heavy snow falling and parked cars totally buried. The Riverside viaduct and Jersey skyline were completely obscured.
At 96th, got 2 waiting across platform. Unpleasant acrid electrical odor persisted all the way on pleasantly fast 142 express run to Times Square. Navigated flooded stairway down to 7 platform, where 62A was just pulling out.
Fortunately, a Redbird was available, so I took the front window all the way back to Flushing. Near whiteout conditions greeted us at the Hunters Point portal and persisted the entire trip, totally obscuring the skyline, Queensboro Bridge ramps and Shea. All the elevated platforms were snow-covered, even under the canopies. There was virtually no vehicular traffic on Queens Boulevard. Additionally, numerous people at 5th, Grand Central and the Plaza asked if this was an express or local. They couldn't seem to accept the fact that everything was on a weekend schedule: "But today's WEDNESDAY! The express should be running! IT RAN THIS MORNING!!"
At Main, there were long lines but no buses, so I walked the mile home, difficult as it was. This was around 5:30, probably the peak of the storm. When I got home, the Weather Channel had upgraded its prediction to 3 or 4".
Despite the poor visibility, it was extremely exciting to be at the front window during a snowstorm. The most dramatic meteorological railfan experiences I'd had prior to that were riding the front windows of the Brighton express and across Jamaica Bay during thunderstorms.
Other fun places to ride during snowstorms would undoubtedly be the above mentioned two lines; the outbound Manny B; the Canarsie line through the Junction; Gun Hill/White Plains; the Dyre and Pelham lines; the Broadway bridge over the Harlem River; the entire SIR; outdoor PATH. Unfortunately, with the exception of the latter, railfan windows are rare or extinct on most of these stretches. The 142/143 front windows are only worthwhile outside in clear weather- or underground if you're drunk.
Great report from the STORMFAN WINDOW, Howard. Thanks.
This morning I took the 7:40 super-express from Mansfield (1st stop Back Bay.. it does the run in 20 minutes at max speed of 80 mph). Even though I could have had a three-seater all to myself, I stood at the WINDOW (full-width MBTA cab control cars have good windows into the cab, and unobstructed views through to the outer storm door). Usually this train is so packed, most who get on in Mansfield have to stand -- the folks from Providence, South Attleboro, and Attleboro scarf up even the horrible middle seats. This train's consist is the maximum allowed on the MBTA, from north to south: cab control double-decker, five trailer double-deckers, a single level, a single level with rest room, then the engine.
When one waits for the 7:40 at Mansfield, you're treated to a fly-by of the 7:15 South Station departure of Acela Express. It passes through Mansfield at 150mph, and seasoned commuters are prepared to turn their backs to the train as the "shock wave" is pretty good. As the train approached today, you could see the headlight surrounded by a wall of snow kicked up by the train. As it passed by the station, it was literally white-out condition for about 10 seconds until the snow settled. A very rare "transit and weather together" event.
Is there any timetable for the completion of the extensive work going on at the Atlantic Avenue IRT/Pacific Street BMT/LIRR complex in Brooklyn? I use that complex every day to switch to/from the IRT and the LIRR and it seems like the work has stopped or substantially slowed.
Any idea?
Supposed to be completed around January 2004, but we all remember when a contactor handles a subway station, remember 14th St/8th ave? Or the mess on the Flushing platform at Grand Central (half of the time, the elevator doesn't work.), or Canal Street complex, how long did it take, even with the building collaspe above ground. Even Spring Street/IRT 6 line was no better, took almost 3 years to renovate a simple station. BTW, the elevators at Propsect Park station were supposed to be operational back in October, still boarded up to this day.
All I have to look at is the escalator situation at Borough Hall on the 2/3. Its been out of service for replacement for almost two years with no end in sight. If it takes over two years to replace a freaking escalator, how long will a station complex take???
The contractor went broke.
[why the Borough Hall escalator work's taking forever
The contractor went broke.
Doesn't NYCT require contractors to post bonds, to cover just such an eventuality?
Yes, and eventually the surety company comes up with another contractor to finish the work (in most cases, at least).
David
Funny how contractors working on the Borough Hall escalators, the River Avenue/Yankee stadium rehab and the 116th St/Lenox Ave rehab all went belly up.
the same escakator contractor also did not finish Brighton Beach and at least knowledge did not complete Myrtle/Wyckoff. (RWKS). I think they did finally finish 125 on the 1.
I think they do require a bond but I do not know what the process is to get a repolacement contractor- can they pick soemone or do they have to rebid the project.
With so many station renovations taking longer than forever, seemingly, I am curious about who is actually doing these renovations. I know that the Atlantic Avenue rehab is being done by outside contractors because I always see men with "contractor" jackets walking around.
What about Times Square on the west side IRT? And what about the Essex Street station rehab and the rerouting work on the Centre Street subway?
Would this work be done more quickly if the MTA simply did all of the work in-house?
The Moronic Transportation Authority tells NYCT that even before the actual work is done to renovate a station by using an outside contractor, they have to go out to bid the services of a engineering and consulting firm who will draw the plans to renovate the station. Take Continental Ave and Union Tpke, for instance. In the MTA web site, under Procurement, instead of using engineers in-house to design the plans to renovate these stations, they have to find an outside contractor through an RFP, then do another contract to have the contractor doing the actual renovation work.
This is why the MTA wastes money on duplicitous procedures like this.
Continental Avenue and Union Turnpike are scheduled for rehabilitation before Roosevelt Avenue and Lex/53? That's pathetic! Continental and Union are not in great shape, granted, but Roosevelt is a disgusting pit and Lex/53 is an abomination! Those should be given priority.
Continental and Union Tpke are in design stage via. a RFP for an outside consultant who provides engineering services, to make the drawings for these stations. Roosevelt Ave is scheduled to start Phase II of construction real soon, Phase I was the old bus terminal and arcade faced the old wrecking ball (lol), is complete, and a new structure is going up now (hopefully).
Queens Plaza doesn't look that impressive either, with some missing tiles in the walls.
Many of the Queens Blvd - Hillside Ave IND stations aren't in great shape though (cosmetically). The Queensbound platform at Van Wyck Ave was horribly retiled as there are many breaks in the tile band. 46 St, and some of the other stations b/w Roosevelt and Queens Plaza have tile bands where sections of it are in different shades of the original color.
and some of the other stations......have tile bands where sections of it are in different shades of the original color.
It's even worse when they replace the original missing colored tiles with white! I think that may look even worse than when they just leave it with missing tiles. Although that may have been more of patch-up jobs in the past, I think more recently they at least try to match the tiles.
I think in the past, they just patched it up with either white tile or whatever color was available. But now, with new garbage/storage rooms being built on the IND platforms, they actually do have matching tile (the front of the Jamaica bound platform at 75 Av is an example of some pretty good tilework).
If you think there's a lot of patch jobs and missing tiles on the Queens Blvd/Hillside line, take a look at the Culver line's stations like 7 Av and Church Av stations they have lots of missing tiles and there's even rust on them! Even Bergen St's renovation looks wasted b/c the wall is rusting, you could see the old wall on the MB side and there is patch jobs there as well. Now a station that could use some tile is Smith-9 St with all the layers of peeling paint and other disgusting features I'm surprised people didn't really complain about its condition.
(If you think there's a lot of patch jobs and missing tiles on the Queens Blvd/Hillside line, take a look at the Culver line's stations like 7 Av and Church Av stations they have lots of missing tiles and there's even rust on them! Even Bergen St's renovation looks
wasted b/c the wall is rusting, you could see the old wall on the MB side and there is patch jobs there as well. Now a station that
could use some tile is Smith-9 St with all the layers of peeling paint and other disgusting features I'm surprised people didn't really
complain about its condition.)
4th Avenue isn't a prize either, and the wall tiles at Prospect Park-- 15th Street, my home station, is a wreck. In fact, the whole Culver line is in bad shape. Perhaps, if they have the money, they'll redo some of these stations when they redo the signals. I think some of these stations have been redone recently. Water seems to be a problem.
AGREED! Yeah, there's constant water leakage on the Culver. Lets see what stations were redone, Bergen St and that's it in the last 10-15 years! The platforms are in rather good shape underground but the els are not good at all. The Culver is my home line too [and the Brighton boy am I spoiled ;-)] and I hate seeing my lines [or any line] in disrepair :-(. Look its bad enough we lost the Culver express but it is home to one of the shittiest stations in the whole system [Smith-9 St], the Bergen interlocking debacle which burned 3 years ago and STILL hasn't been fixed at all or barely, the dingy, dark 4 Av station & the exercise of a transfer and lots of falling wall tile.
If you want to see some water leakage, check out Broadway on the G line. The platform has rust-orange patches, the walls have streaks of rust, the platform has puddles, the walls also have missing tiles and a whole lot more. The ends of the platform had some new tile added some time ago, but the new tile already has streaks of rust showing. Horrific looking station, to say the very least.
Lex/63 is being done now! Or have you been away from NYC? They even ahev Queens Bound trains skipping the stop in the AM rush due to crowding.
They will do wall and floor tile, add elevators and make a full length emzzanine with more escalators.
Lex/53 is being done now! Or have you been away from NYC? They even ahev Queens Bound trains skipping the stop in the AM rush due to crowding.
They will do wall and floor tile, add elevators and make a full length mezzanine with more escalators.
Lex/53 is being done now! Or have you been away from NYC? They even have Queens Bound trains skipping the stop in the AM rush due to crowding.
They will do wall and floor tile, add elevators and make a full length mezzanine with more escalators.
This is standard construction procedure, and it's like using temps for anything -- flexible. Hire up for a job, don't rehire the same consultants if they don't work out. On big jobs several firms will propose together because there aren't enough qualified warm bodies even in NYC to do the design. In-house MTA could never handle these ups-and-downs and you'd never get a fire lit under them.
During the Depression there was some push to do all work in house but it just didn't take. To get higher speed, what you do is design part, start construction, then design the next part while construction is going on, etc. MTA needs to concentrate on learning how to administer this way, called fast-track. Not on having a bunch of draftsmen sitting around.
(On big jobs several firms will propose together because there aren't enough qualified warm bodies even in NYC to do the design. In-house MTA could never handle these ups-and-downs and you'd never get a fire lit under them.)
That may be true of the Second Avenue Subway, but most work is ongoing -- ie. signal and station jobs keep on going forever as things reach the end of their useful life.
(To get higher speed, what you do is design part, start construction, then design the next part while construction is going on, etc. MTA needs to concentrate on learning how to administer this way, called fast-track. Not on having a bunch of draftsmen sitting around.)
That's the way things ARE administered. There are projects in every phase of design and construction. The only reason we'd have a fall off is because Pataki borrowed so much money that capital spending stops and the system starts deteriorating again.
In any event, the big factor is cost. When the economy is roaring, in-house would be cheaper if the TA could hire quality people in the trades, because construction companies charge top dollar. When construction falls off, outside contractors are cheaper, because they need the work. They are starting to get cheaper right now.
The big error is borrowing big bucks in a boom and getting overcharged, then cutting capital spending in a bust when people need work and good deals are to be had. Guess what New York City and New York State do in every business cycle?
And all the states, so the whole freaking construction industry rollercoasters. If you even whisper that maybe government should try to level these things out, the libertarians accuse you of being a Keynesian pig and jump down your throat.
(And all the states, so the whole freaking construction industry rollercoasters. If you even whisper that maybe government should try to level these things out, the libertarians accuse you of being a Keynesian pig and jump down your throat.)
Unfortunately, leveling it out means NOT spending money on construction when times are good. And then using the money use saved for construction, not to balance the budget when times are bad. Two political impossibilities.
Once, long ago (pre-WW2) when there was a big enough hue-and-cry about the economy, it was seen as the federal government's role to pick up the reins, where the states lacked the political will (too beholden to voters, problems with cities straddling boundaries), and do public works projects to smooth out the business cycles. I wonder, if the current slowdown goes on and the Republicans commit total hari-kari at the national level, if a little of that could come back.
>>> Once, long ago (pre-WW2) when there was a big enough hue-and-cry about the economy, it was seen as the federal government's role to pick up the reins, where the states lacked the political will (too beholden to voters, problems with cities straddling boundaries), and do public works projects to smooth out the business cycles <<<
You need to go back to your history and economics books. In the ‘30s it was considered almost a Bolshevik idea to have the federal government interfere with the business cycle. The conservatives of the time were sure Franklin Roosevelt was leading the country straight into Communism, and the extreme leftists were calling for Communism. Prior to that time, a national debt was something incurred in war time and reduced to zero as soon as possible when a war was over.
States may have had the political will to do public works projects then, but like today, they did not have the money. Only the federal government has the ability to crank up the printing presses and turn out new money. The states are required to have balanced budgets, so when tax collections go down, spending must go down also.
Tom
Tom, I think you're right. The housing people did start to think the fiscal stuff was okay in the sixties, but before then, Roosevelt didn't have many friends with the federal programs period, let alone using them for economic purposes. I stand corrected.
The big error is borrowing big bucks in a boom and getting overcharged, then cutting capital spending in a bust when people need work and good deals are to be had. Guess what New York City and New York State do in every business cycle?
Look out! Typical New York Incompetence is rearing its ugly head again!
Betcha anything that Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix etc. etc. don't make similar mistakes.
I believe a in-house job does renovate stations far faster than hiring a outside contractor and going through all the steps like bidding, etc. Look at how nice the MTA did with their in house renovations on the 7 Av local stations and I believe the renovations on the Broadway el(J/Z), rebuilding the tunnel leading to South Ferry and on the N/R stations in Manhattan were in house also. Outside jobs waste more money and leads to more budget overruns than if they simply hired their own workers to do so.
My impression is that there is far more variability with outside contractors. A good outside job (of which there are some) is cheaper and quicker than in-house. A bad one is far worse than an inside project, and if really bungled may need to be redone.
From my experience at the Georgia DOT, outside contracting is far better. 90% of all projects we do involve hiring contractors, design work, vertical drilling, repaving, etc. It´s much easier this way for the administration because all they have to do is cut a check for the company doing the work. There are fewer people and equipment to keep track of, so it saves time and paperwork. DOT employees such as myself and the people I work with are more like quality control; we check that the work is being done correctly. The GDOT is considered to be one of the best run DOT agencies in the nation and our roads have won many awards for being well-maintained. Because we cut out all the bullshit, and the work gets done very quickly.
MARTA hires an outside contractor to do all maintainance work for the entire system. The contract lasts for x number of years. Right now, URS Corp has the job. They do the inspections and fix whatever needs to be fixed, then bills MARTA. This lets MARTA operate the system and just focus on that, which improves service and efficency;
NYCT should do the same thing. Since the system is very large, I don]t think one company could handle it all. Maybe divide of the system up so that one contractor is in charge of a single borough? Let them have the freedom to sub-contract jobs, and they will most likely do a very good job with it.
this debate reminds me of the divide in mainline RR diesel policies in the 70's and 80's. Santa Fe, not only did all work in house, but also did GOH/remanufacture programs--"Cleburne CF-8's"for example. ICG did "Paducah" rebuilds. Concurrently Chessie just kept trading in hulks rather than upgrading them. More recemtly many of the "in house shops" hve been either sold off or 'leased' to maintenance arms of the vendors--having Kawasaki for instance take over all repairs on their products at a TA facility. What you have to believe is that hiring an outside firm can squeeze better work for lower costs in order to pay stockholders dividends.
The success or failure of contracting out work all depends on having quilified, competent, accountable project managers inhouse who properly oversee the projects and contractor selection.
Pataki has shown time an again that he is willing to award contracts for poitical gain. The WTC master design contract is a good example. THe contract was awarded to the design firm that had the secound lowest favorabilty rating of all the firms up for the contract. The form had close ties to pataki, Another example is a roads contract up in albany which was awarded to a big pataki supporter. A similar project a half mile away was done for half the price
>>> URS Corp has the job. They do the inspections and fix whatever needs to be fixed, then bills MARTA. This lets MARTA operate the system and just focus on that, which improves service and efficency; <<<
This sounds suspiciously like the British system of one company owning the ROW and another running the trains which was disastrous there. Is it working in Atlanta because it is a relatively new system with the ROW in good condition?
Tom
Times Square Phase I (IRT 1/2/3/9,BMT Mezzanine) was done by Slattery/Gotlieb in a partnership.
Eessex will be very late- it is being done by Cab Associates which were late with WTC and very late with 14/8th, and have taken over Broadway Jct since Excel went broke. They also did Myrtle Broadway which has leaking canopies and windows that wont close.
Some in-house jobs:
Houston, Canal,18 , 181 on the 1, 191 on the 1 (now being done); 81/CPW, 5ht Ave (N/R/W)
The J line stations were done by M.A. Angeliades which completed 161 when that original contractor went belly up.
I dont know who did the 4 Manhattan Broadway Stations.
I travel the system and have seen that as a group the in-house jobs are better than outside jobs- espeically those done by Cab.
Essex will be very late- it is being done by Cab Associates which were late with WTC and very late with 14/8th, and have taken over Broadway Jct since Excel went broke. They also did Myrtle Broadway which has leaking canopies and windows that wont close.
Remember the old adage:
"Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me."
"Remember the old adage:
"Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me."
Not so easy to exclude a mediocre contractor from bidding on future jobs. I don't know what the rules are, but I know that just because a contractor did a less than perfect job once, you can't forever ban them from bidding on future work.
And then if they are the low bidder on the next job, you're stuck with them.
What needs to be done is that a contractor should be awarded a score for each contract for which he performs work on. The criteria needs to be set up obtain this score.
The bidding project should use this score to weigh each contractors bid. Therefore the lowest bidder will not always win and the contractor is aware that the quiaity of his work has a bearing on winning future contracts
>>> What needs to be done is that a contractor should be awarded a score for each contract for which he performs work on. The criteria needs to be set up obtain this score. <<<
More important are financial penalties for substandard work. That would prevent low ball bids and subsequent skimping on materials and workmanship while providing funds for corrections.
Tom
Finacial penaties are needed but preventing future contracts just as important. it is not always immediately apparent that skinping on materials and workmenship occured for a period of time. In that time the contractor has won a few more contracts. Plus it is hard to place a value on skimping
>>> Plus it is hard to place a value on skimping <<<
Obviously the TA needs to inspect work as it is done to prevent hidden defects, and penalties should be at least 125% of the cost to repair the problems, if the repairs must be done by another entity.
Tom
Penalties should be accompanied by rewards for exceptionally good work.
As the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey...in this case, provide carrots as well as a stick.
IT is harder then it sounds to penalize contractors for poor work. The better way to go is to insure good contractors are rewarded with both money and a leg up on future contracts.
Penalties, rewards, preferences and elimination from future consideration are all incredibly difficult to write into public contracts. I believe they're covered by state legislation, and usually reward or penalize things like days finished early or late, which are almost indisputable. Sometimes even the judgement of what was actually bid can come under legal dispute -- imagine "I deserve my good-work bonus".
(Penalties, rewards, preferences and elimination from future consideration are all incredibly difficult to write into public contracts. I believe they're covered by state legislation, and usually reward or penalize things like days finished early or late, which are
almost indisputable. Sometimes even the judgement of what was actually bid can come under legal dispute -- imagine "I deserve my good-work bonus". )
That's right. This is the government we are talking about, so people (including contractors) have rights as individuals but not collectively. So the law favors the sleezt contractors, while all the paperwork put in place to defeat them chases good contractors away.
This gets back to the one flaw in the "privitization" argument. It assumes that agencies which are too incompetent to manage employees are competent enough to manage contracts. You run into the same problem in either case -- management discretion. All discretion, and you get favoritism and vendettas. Eliminate discretion (civil service lists, protrracted procedures for termination, low bidder, etc) and you get a legal playing field for those who want to work the system. It's the same dillemma whether in-house or out.
If you reward administrative methods that work, like cast-in-stone prohibited-to-bid lists, tight schedules, quality control manuals, TA willing to enforce warranties, inspectors with brass balls, no dead weight, then you get a better system with private contractors. It takes (uh oh) POLITICAL WILL and direction from the top.
(If you reward administrative methods that work, like cast-in-stone prohibited-to-bid lists, tight schedules, quality control manuals, TA willing to enforce warranties, inspectors with brass balls, no dead weight, then you get a better system with private contractors. It takes (uh oh) POLITICAL WILL and direction from the top.)
Just remember, in public administration whether you are awarding contacts or hiring employees, your boss (the politician) is on the payroll of the person you are negotiating with (the union or contractor). Perhaps the rule should be in-house under Republicans and contract out under Democrats, since Republicans tend to be paid off by contractors and Democrats by unions.
Selkirk? Help me out, here. Selkirk!? SELKIRK!!!?
I don't know if anyone else has better info on this (or if it's a european urban rumor) but I've heard of a Scandinavian country that awards the contract to the second-lowest bid. Think how hard you'd have to sharpen yor pencil, and how useless it would be to lowball.
were these some of the cars rebuilt by amtrak or mechtron?
they have white floors, unpainted areas around side windows(which is robins egg blue), and unpainted black seats
Sounds to me like we've got parts of a former paint scheme showing...
yup
doors were of the mainline style
What were the numbers of the Amtrak and mechtron rebuilds?
I believe a handful of R36's were rebuilt by GE as well.
No R33/R36 WF or any IRT car was rebuilt by GE; 10 R32's and 196 R38's were rebuilt by GE. The rebuilders of the R33/R36 WF were:
Morrison Knudsen(215)
NYCTA(200)
NEMCO(4)
Amtrak(4)
Where were the R-36's rebuilt by Amtrak done? Sunnyside?
Beech Grove (Indiana), Amtrak's main shop, if memory serves.
David
Why not Sunnyside?
Maybe because Sunnyside is not an overhaul shop.
David
were these the amtrak cars?
I never did get a list indicating which overhauler overhauled which cars. If anyone here has one, please post it.
(I do know that the 39 single R-33s, other than the Transit Museum's 9306, were overhauled by Coney Island).
David
9558-9769 to be exact.
#9573 7 Flushing Local
Actually, it was Amtrak and NEMCO that rebuilt some R36's The #'s you mentioned is probably two of the Amtrak/NEMCO rebuilds [there were 8 of them 4 by each]. Seems like they weren't as thorough as the other rebuilders of this car class [NYCTA & MK].
Does anyone have a photo of the builder's plate from the Amtrak/Mechtron R-36's? If so, please scan and post it so I
can see it.
The R-36s did not get rebuilder's plates. They retained their original St. Louis Car builder's plates.
David
I am sorry for the triple post. I was having browser problems and actually hit the stop which according to the status bar worked but it seems it did not.
You are forgiven. :)
In fact, you're the first person to make an apology publicly. I see many posters make double posts all the time!
The 'stop' button, will stop your browser from downloading a page, but it will not stop if from sending in a form reply. Once you click the submit button, your computer "INSTANTLY" transmits the message to Dave's computer, but his computer takes time to process the request and send the page back to you for your browser to read.
Your computer is much faster than Dave's (it is only connected to *you* where as Dave's must process many requests.) His machine takes time to strip your post into its various fields, and record it in his data base, and then to access that database to draw the information needed to create the new html page needed for your machine while also doing so for everybody else.
AND... even *IF* your computer were hung up on the internet and had to resend packets to Dave, It will do so without further intervention from you. Your hitting the 'submit' button is definitive and final as far as this transaction is concerned.
Gee, these 'puters are *so* much fun!
Elias
I am refering to the storage track on the Downtown side of the Concourse Line - between 167th & 170th Street Stations.
Has anyone ever seen this stub track being used for anything? I have been told that it was to store a Yankee Stadium put-in.
Early 1950s--
If memory serves, a post-game S train ran to 34th Street-Sixth Avenue for people from Yankee Stadium. ('S' was used for 'Special' on the IND.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
They do not use this track for baseball put-ins, they use the center express track in the same manner it is used on the #4 line. These Extras are switched over to the local track at 167th Street and run lite to 161st Street where they start their runs (same way on the #4 line, same switching at 167th st). This track is rarely used because it dead-ends around 100 feet south of 170th st.
This track is rarely used because it dead-ends around 100 feet south of 170th st.
Rarely used for what?
From what I can see as the train goes by, it looks like it hasn't been used in decades.
It is a piece of track that shouldn't be there, because to access it, you have to reverse the train from s/B 167th Street. So, why is there a need for that?
What if the TA were to install switches so that instead of dead-ending, the track would merge onto the revenue tracks?
Could that be useful?
I have seen work equipment stored there many times....Its totally
usable..and maintained.
It would have to have a use, otherwise it would have been ripped up years ago. Maintaining the switch to access it costs money.
Exactly. As Lo-VBill said, he saw work equipment stored there so that would make the stub track have a use, its useless revenue wise but for work it helps out or else it would have been ripped up and removed.
What if the TA were to install switches so that instead of dead-ending, the track would merge onto the revenue tracks?
Could that be useful?
I think this is a good idea because then trains and/or equipment could be moved in there without having to make any reverse moves. The tunnel is designed for something like this.
This is but one of many basically useless IND tracks. There's a 5th express track outside both Lafayette Ave & Utica Ave. There's the pocket track between local and express tracks on both levels of the CPW IND between 81st St. and 72nd. St. There's a useless 5th track on the 8th Ave IND bewtwwn 23rd. St. and 34th St. And of course there's that bizarre 5th track that leads down a ramp from the IND as it crosses the Gowanus canal.
You'd wish those "useless" tracks were there if the train ahead of you developed mechanical problems.
Most of them are loaded with spare rails and other supplies and effect rapid repair of serious problems like broken rails much faster than if the same stuff had to come in from Brooklyn or the Bronx.
There's the pocket track between local and express tracks on both levels of the CPW IND between 81st St. and 72nd. St.
I remember when the upper and lower tracks were stub ended. And I remember when the switches were installed to make them thru tracks.
I have seen expresses stored there before the evening rush hour many times.
I have been on trains that have switched from local to express tracks and vice versa. The shine on the rails indicates much usage for this track.
Oh, I'm not claiming it's unused. I've been on trains which have used it many times. I was just using it to demonstrate the plethora of seemingly bizarre spur/pocket tracks which dot the IND system.
Hey, if you think that IND track 'crossing' the Gowanus canal is bad; that stub track is not as bad as the one after Spring St on the Lex Av line [I'm not sure if track is still there] very odd :-\. Now the track after 4 Av is really mysterious to me was that suppose to go somewhere b/c it's existence is puzzling.
What these extra tracks should be used for is rush-hour extra put-ins -- in other words, keep an extra train ready in strategic locations so that when the inevitable rush hour delay or "gap in service" occurs, they could insert these into the schedule.
>>> What these extra tracks should be used for is rush-hour extra put-ins <<<
Where are all the extra train sets and crews (who will have to be paid) which will sit idly by waiting for the call going to come from?
Tom
There's the pocket track between local and express tracks on both levels of the CPW IND between 81st St. and 72nd. St. There's a useless 5th track on the 8th Ave IND bewtwwn 23rd. St. and 34th St.
You probably gave two of the worst examples to support your argument of useless tracks. The 72nd St bypass tracks and the track at 30th & 8th have many uses. Just to give you a few examples, look at 72nd St. on the uptown level. Of course the tracks @ 72nd St can be used to store B/O trains during rush hour or stage special trains. I've seen both done. Here's another that they like to do from time to time (although not since the Manhattan Bridge closed). Bring an A in on 4 track (express) and a D train in on 2 track (local). Normally, one train would need to be held in the station until the other clears the X-Over north of the station. This ties up the other pocket. Now, if you send both trains via A-4 and A-2, the D can be crossed through the 72nd St. siding onto A-4 behind the A or even in front of the A depending on which is late.
As to the siding at 30th & 8th, that siding will hold 20 cars. It's used most often for staging work trains or for holding B/O trains. That also goes for 5 track at Chambers Street on the 8th Ave line.
What's a B/O train? (It seems to me that all NYC subways are BO trains, especially in the evening rush. :)
If you don't know what a B/O train is, how do you assume that all PM trains are BO trains? B/O is railroadese for Bad Order = defective. In this context, a train that needs to be moved out of the way.
If you don't know what a B/O train is, how do you assume that all PM trains are BO trains? B/O is railroadese for Bad Order = defective. In this context, a train that needs to be moved out of the way.
Unless he means Body Odor instead of Bad Order!
Hmmmmm, I suppose that BO could represent Body Odor. And in a strange way it makes sense, too. It seems that in some communities, the stores do not sell deoderant.
"please do not wear perfume, cologne, or other allergy causing chemicals when attending meetings"
And of course there's that bizarre 5th track that leads down a ramp from the IND as it crosses the Gowanus canal.
Yeah, that is one real mystery to me .... a very strange place for an additional track.
--Mark
I heard years ago that it was supposed to be to keep snow removal equipment (?) ready for use.
IN THAT??? The track is just mysterious and we may not know its true existence and how far does it go anyway. Maybe it was supposed to be a provision, who knows.
A provision I doubt. For the IND there were very few (if any) grade crossings. They were flying junctions and over/under passes. I think it was a spur track for the 3 track Concourse line. There probably wasn'r room to put an additional (5th) track like the 8th Ave/Fulton St line.
For the longest time I thought that 5th track went into the top floor of a building. I think now it's just a turning track.
It's there for bad order trains removed from service that are unlikely to have the "oomph" to climb up out of the river on the Manhattan side of the tunnel under the river. It permits a dead train to be put in there until after the rush. I had a train one morning that had to move up in there and wait to go back to concourse yard. It's VERY handy when needed ...
Does the TA ever send in a train just to keep the rails polished? I would imagine that there could be bad consequences for someone completing a circuit from the catwalk if anything were put in there now.
Given the current amount of dirt on the rails, it will be quite a light show when something is moved in there!
Even on rotted rails, there's more than enough metal contact to complete the ciruit. And I'm sure just from trash trains and work trains pooking in there to let something pass, they get shined sufficiently. Rust conducts though, just a slightly higher voltage drop through it. :)
You just answered your own question basically. Usually, it is used to handle crowds for Yankee Stadium games but I've never really seen it being used; maybe it has other purposes.
>>"Usually, it is used to handle crowds for Yankee Stadium games"<<
Disregard this comment. The way I see it, it looks useless and is probably a mistake or possibly a proposed spur track to go somewhere other than being a dead-end track.
Polo Grounds Shuttle, anyone?
Why is the MTA logo to the left of the number plate on the R-36 WF
fleet but below the number plate on the ML Redbirds?
With the HHP-8 locomotive and ACELA trainset deliveries wraping up, Amtrak has found itself with a slight surplus of electric locomotives. As a result, Amtrak has just anounced that the changeover to electric power on the Harrisburg line will be undertaken as soon as possible, which likley means the first quarter of 2003. This will free up much needed 100-series Genesis diesel locomotives. Furthermore, instead of retiring the venerable E60's, Amtrak is now extending E60 powered trains all the way to Washington DC, instead of preforming the power change at Philadelphia. The fisht such Long Distance train to be affected is the Carolinian.
Don't retire the E-60's!
Amtrak should have a surplus of stock to keep rolling!
Its about time...
I grew up in the Harrisburg area, and I haven't seen an electric train on that line for years, which is a shame, since the catenary has been in place for decades.
Are you sure about those E60s. According to the 10/29 employee timetable, E60s are restricted to 80 or 90 mph maximum speed depending if it's a E60MA or E60CP. Running time between NYP and WAS for #79 is 3 hours 40 minutes. You can't make that trip at 80 or 90 mph.
Michael
Washington, DC
Well the Genesis hauled trains south of Philly probably didn't get much over 90 either so speed is not really a factor in Amtrak's plan.
If it was a MU of Genesis, yes it could get up to at least 105. If track permits that.Dont under estimate the Genesis series.
Incorrect. Genesis hauled trains on the express track south of Philly reach 110 mph. It is probably true, however, that they cannot reach the 125 mph which the electric locos can do.
quick question-can't remember if this has been asked before, but what exactly makes the new equipment from bombardier sound different from kawasaki equipment as they leave the station?
AC propulsion equipment from a different manufacturer.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Jerome Avenue and Broadway elevateds have long stretches of Express Track, with no stations. Why were they built like this?
Obviously, when the Sixth and Ninth Avenue elevateds ran from Jerome avenue, the middle track was used.
BTW, where did the Sixth and Ninth avenue's terminate - Burnside Avenue or Woodlawn Road?
Obviously, when the Sixth and Ninth Avenue elevateds ran from Jerome avenue, the middle track was used.
They were not. Jerome Avenue never saw regular express service. The middle track at Burnside was used to terminate the el trains (so that answers your second question).
Most Dual Contacts els (Jerome was one, Broadway was not) were built with a third, middle track for midday/overnight storage, or to turn trains at intermediate points (as another poster mentioned at Burnside Ave. on the Jerome Ave. line). The thought also was in case peak period express service became necessary after the lines were built, the track would already be in place.
Of course, some el routes do indeed have such peak period express service - #7 Flushing being the best example.
On the Jerome line the middle track was also used to reverse the Polo Grounds shuttles north of 167th St., from 1940 until 1958.
Most els were built like this way back in the day so should a peak direction service ever surface, it would provide a quicker ride, there are lots of 3 track els all over the city [except SI]. The Jerome el never had a peak express service and as for the Broadway el it hasn't seen express service since the late 70's or early 80's. The els terminated at Burnside Av.
Most els were built like this way back in the day so should a peak direction service ever surface, it would provide a quicker ride, there are lots of 3 track els all over the city [except SI].
True, and ironically the Jamaica el is the one el where the third track would have been the most use, and even though a provision was left for it, it was never built. It would have been of more use than the ones that were built and never used such as Jerome, West End, etc.
See my message, 425550, which I accidentally posted in response to a prior message in the thread. Sorry.
I agree, it would've been useful today but skip stop service is doing its job there. I wish there were some way to run a sufficient peak direction service on the 1/9 to eliminate skip stop service, which is pointless there. I wonder what the Jerome and West End els would be like with peak express service if it ever surfaced [we alll know what happened with the Astoria peak express].
No doubt that the Astoria El Express was a disaster, mostly because it is too short of a run, and there is considerable passengers at the "local" stations. Not to mention the fact that even if the Local stations were not busy, it's such a short run that the time savings would be minimal.
As for Jerome and West end, there would be a bit more use than Astoria, because at least they are a fairly good run. But again, it depends at passenger demand at the local stations. If that is higher than some of the express stations, it doesn't pay. The problem is that the neighborhoods have shifted so much from the time when those els were built. What was good for a local station back then may warrant express service now, and some of the "express" stations may only warrant local service compared to some of the real local stations. So we would have to see ridership figures for those stations to make an informed estimate on whether it would work well or not. Of the top of my head, I'd have to say that almost any express service on the other unused lines would work better than the disaster they tried on the Astoria El.
I agree with you, the Astoria peak express was just a disaster and might have been too short to do so but at least I got to ride it 8-). They shouldn't have sent EVERY W, they should of sent every other W but the thing was it didn't have the frequency to do so. Even a extension of the Bronx thru express on the 5 to Gun Hill Rd via WPR would work better than what they planned on the Astoria.
It is heavy ridership at local stations on the West End and Jerome that prevent a peak express from being created.
For West End, the M as an express and the W (B) as a local would not work because it would only be useful for passengers headed for downtown. The reverse (M local and W (B)) express would be worse because then all the local stations would have to switch trains if they weren't headed for downtown. The only way a local/express service would work on West end is if another service was added from let's say Broadway, while keeping the current level of service on the West End at the Local stations, having a Broadway Line train come in on the West End and run Express. I'm not suggesting that, because I don't know how necessary that would be, but it seems like the only option that work well on the West End Express.
Well, face it the West End is a very dificult line to introduce a peak express. If the M is express and the B/W is local, it may not be so bad but if reversed then it would be bad b/c no one would really ride the W since more people use the local stations and it would be a waste; in other words a Astoria express part 2. Now your idea of a 3rd line is good but should run only in 1 direction rush hours[similar to the old QB] and the thing is it may not be necessary to have 3 lines but lets see how it could/would look out of curiousity.
Lets see (assume the B is in Brooklyn again):
(B)West End local-4 Av exp-6 Av exp-CPW local-Concourse-BPB
(M)West end local-Nassau local-Broadway el local-Metro Av. Trains can keep their current pattern but I don't remember if there is a double switch to the MB local track after Bay Pkwy [from the track towatds CI].
(W)West End express-4 Av local-Broadway local-Astoria. These could start at Stillwell Av since the B runs like every 8-10 minutes rush hours anyway. It runs in ONE direction rush hours from Bay Pkwy to 36 St, with stops at 62 St and 9 Av in between [AM to Manhattan PM to Brooklyn]; then they could turn into B's, go into the yard or just go to Whitehall.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back
Of course my suggestion above is thinking of service when the West End is served by 6th Ave line trains, and when the Manhattan Bridge is totally open, assuming service goes back to the way it was before it closed. I didn't make that clear in my post. The "added" Broadway service of course would be like keeping the W there after the B returns.
See Flatbush's remarks on how that would work. Again for arguments sake, not because I think this is a needed service...it's fun to talk about though!
About 40 years ago, I used to ride the White Plains Rd. Thru Express. At that time it took the middle track downtown at GunHill Road, which was where I got on. I could never get a seat on the train. The best I could do was to pull the door shut at the end of the car (LoV's), lock my knees and get some zzzzzzz's. I fell out the second time that the door opened (at Bowling Green - the first time was 125th Street) and went on to work. I don't know when they changed the beginning of the express run down to 180th Street.
I could see a Burnside Express on the #4. It would switch to/from the express track at Burnside and run local up to/down from Woodlawn. It could separate those who tranfer to/from the B/D at 161st Street from those who would need faster service further uptown on Jerome Ave. I think it would spread the load on the trains a little bit better.
But you have to remember that a lot of people use the local stations between 149 St/Grand Conc and Burnside Av and the 4 running things by itself may further negate the possibility of a Jerome express. The only way it would be successful is to schedule 4 trains just right to make it sensible or the better alternative [and many Subtalkers plan]is to add a 2nd line that runs with it letting 4's go express in the peak direction.
How about running a '4' Diamond every other train or every third train during the rush hour. Is there '5' Diamond Thru Express service on the '5'(granted the '2' trains on WPR)?
I thought about running every other 4 as a express too, if you run every third 4 as a express, you may as well take a local 4 so the first plan would be better.
All 5's during the rush runs express to/from 149 St/3 Av to E 180 St via WPR/Southern Blvd in the peak direction. (5)'s run to Dyre Av, <5>'s run to 238 St so yes there is a diamond 5 but its for trains to 238 St.
Thanks for the heads up with the (5) & <5>.
But the '6' seems to work it out. AlthoughI would have all '4' trains terminating at Woodlawn. As I indicated above, the two sections of the '4' would come together/separate at Burnside.
But the '6' seems to work it out
The headways on the 6 are so high, that express service on the Pelham line has to work. There is no was that the Pelham el would need Lexington Line Local headways at the local Pelham stations, so the added bonus to that is a very well run express service in the Bronx.
There is no was that the Pelham el would need Lexington Line Local headways at the local Pelham stations
Sorry, typo....."There is no WAY that....."
Exactly. 6 trains are every 3 minutes during the rush hours while 4 trains are every 5 minutes and if there was NO Pelahm express, trains would bunch like crazy so it works there. Just like the 7, no express would cause massive bunching/delays [remember when they cut the Flushing express in the late 80's].
But the '6' seems to work it out. The difference that I would have between the '6' and the '4' is that I would have all '4' trains terminating at Woodlawn. As I indicated above, the two sections of the '4' would come together/separate at Burnside. This does not require any new construction because all of the necessary track combinations are available at Burnside.
The 6 is different from the 4 in two relevant ways. First, the 6 runs close to 30 tph to begin with, while the 4 has to share most of its trackage with the 5. Second, most of the lower Pelham line stations have extremely low ridership, so they can afford to have half of the 6 trains not stop.
If the (3) could be connected to the 4 then it might be possible(either through the Polo Grounds connection or by digging a tunnel from one of the (3) stations to 149 St-GC), but some stations would have to be re-done so that it can have more island platforms like Concourse line in which the (D) doesn't share any trackage with the (B) (in peak direction). Stations after Burnside would need island platforms until 200th Street.
The (3) would terminate at 200th Street instead of Woodlawn.
In your plan Bedford Park Blvd(200 St) would be reconstructed I see but I don't think ALL the platforms after Burnside would need island platforms, it would probably defeat the purpose of the peak express via Jerome and wouldn't take full advantage of skipping more stops; only Bedford Park Blvd should be rebuilt. I agree that 3's don't have to go to Woodlawn since there are enough 4's to cover service there.
Why do you assume upper Broadway needs either an express service or skip-stop? Perhaps the best way to serve the passengers along the line is simply to run a lot of local service. (Perhaps not, but isn't it an option that needs to be considered along wiht the other options?)
It was just a suggestion. Skip stop is basically useless & saves almost no time and the lack of island platforms on the upper Broadway line btw 157 St and Dyckman severly limits the chance for a full length peak express service(1/9) so local is probably the best way to go [unless we could come up with a sensible plan].
skip stop spreads out the crowds so that one train isn't crowded while the other one is empty, I need t oride skip stop one day to really experience it, anyway anything is better than the 4 line. Also the 1/9 should be extended to W 262 Street
You NEVER rode the 1/9 skip stop service[or the J/Z?]. Ride it and you'll see for yourself. The J/Z is successful but the 1/9 frequently backs up, therefore saving little time so far. Then you got THREE 'ab' stops in a row at 168, 181 & 191 St which has good volume and 168 is a transfer point which further negates the possible savings of time.
J/Z? sorry I usually don't go into to Brooklyn, just Bronx and sometimes Manhattan (even Westchester, the Bx16 bus stop by the City of Mt Vernon sign is very interesting). Although I have been by the 1/9 on the Bx9 bus. Since I live in the Bronx I usually stick with buses(not much of a choice). I will try to see the 1/9 when I have an unlimited card (if I get time).
The Jerome middle....rarely stores trains....to many chances
for vandalism.Its used for GO's all the time....mostly daytimes....
and of course to pass by trains that may have broke down....
Wait a minute! Didn't the QJ run express and the KK local during the rush hour peak around '72 for almost the whole of what today is known as the J line? The 1972 map proves this!
As far as I know, the Jamaica line between Cypress Hills and 168th Street never had an express track, except at 111th Street (where they used to turn the Lexington El trains) and at 160th (not sure why they had that there, but it could have been used to store trains starting at 168th). The rest of the line, although has room for it, never had an express track, it was just a provision. Notice how there is no girders there (like on the M from Central to Wyckoff which had an express track at one time).
It has racked my brains also, because it looks like there are holes where the girders could have been, and always thought there was. But all the information I learned here at SubTalk and photographic evidence over the years has swayed me to believe there never was an express track there. So at this point, it becomes like IND 76th Street to me - until I see photographic proof, I don't think there ever was an express track on the Jamaica Line.
As for the 1972 map, I have to check my copy when I get home. I think I remember seeing that on the map also. It could have been an express on the local track similar to the way they used to do that on the Canarsie Line between Myrtle and Lorimer.
Chris, I am just as confused and here's the puzzling thing. While it looks like there was NEVER a express track throughout the Jamaica el, there are imprints in the middle which suggests that they actually may have started to place track but it was removed[ whenever. It wasn't placed there for no reason, there had to be a purpose for the extra room on the structure from Cypress Hills to 168 St; now just past 121 St. Too bad, they should realy consider putting that to use but the roadblock is the skip stop service has been successful.
Yeah I can see it both ways (very confusing), although I have been completely swayed around from my original thoughts over time to believe the express track never existed on Jamaica. It was just a provision.
If they would ever consider putting in an express track (they have in the recent past), I think they would have to consider making Woodhaven an express stop.
I wonder what they were thinking when they designed the Jamaica El b/t Cypress Hills and 168th. It obviously was at least built with the provision for a center track. That would have been one super express! No stops between 168th and at least Crecsent, but the provsion at Alabama (trackway trying to begin to go over Alabama Station) may have been to have no stops between Eastern Parkway Broadway Junction and 168th, unless they had something totally different for the section between Alabama and Crecsent, like the single track Jamaica Ave bypass track between Cypress Hills and BJ, as some here have suggested.
I still belive no express track was placed there and *IF* by some chance there was a track, I think no train ever used it.
If they were to consider making Woodhaven a express stop, it would have to be torn down and rebuilt but it wouldn't be much of a problem since you have the Q56 right underneath. Imagine that no stops or only 1-2 stops in between from B'way Junction all the way to 168 St[Jamaica Center nowadays], or in this case no stops from Cypress Hills to 168 St[Jamaica Center]; and having a R42 running things that would be a railfans dream :-D. It would be interesting to see what it would look like had the center track from B'way Junction, over Alabama then merges at Cypress Hills been built.
I use to ride the Jamaica line from the 1960's through the mid 1970's and from my observation and my father in laws observation from when he rode the el back in the 1930's and 40's, there never was an express track from cypress to 168th st. the middle track at 111th was for the lex for turn around and the track at 160th st was for storage and lay up. I saw trains parked there all the time. now the QJ did run express in the rush hour direction between marcy av and eastern parkway and was stopped and I believe it was activated again between myrtle and marcy, but by this time I was already living in Florida. the structue which was supose to be an express track which ends just west of alabama av looks like if was to run over the station and continue down Fulton st. they may have had plans to run the center track on the original alienment to by pass or create an express station above the local station. This is just I guess on my part.
Sorry I forgot to mention that the transit authority may have attempted to upgrade service and install a 3rd track but from what I have read in sub talk and from past information I was told that the local merchants and locals did not want more noise or additional darkness on jamaica av. this is also the campain that destroyed the el from 168th st to 121 st station. I think they realize that they made a very serious mistake gettin rid or the el
Yup getting rid of the el in 1977 [from after 121 St to Queens Blvd in 1985] was a huge mistake and led to the demise of Jamaica for a long time but now it has rebounded. Now, it only goes to Jamaica Center when it was supposed to go further than that and yes they realized that the error was very costly. I wonder what it would be like to have a full Jamaica el peak express service from Marcy Av to Jamaica Center [Z's could take the role].
They are penny wise and pound foolish. The jamaica line should be 3 tracked even if it means a fly over on fulton st. It is better than nothing. this would create more ridership and probably take some of the pressure off the ind queens line. this could be a very cost effective project for the good of the customer and service. they can also re visit using the christie st connection again up 6th av. I am sure they will have the demand for it. My boss always told me that you have to invest in something to get something back. If you don't invest in the system you will get crap back out of it and that is what they are turning the system into
john
Unfortunately, however, the skip-stop J/Z service is working, as mentioned in a previous post. And even if you get a full-length express on that line, I don't think it'll attract the customers who have seen the speed of the E.
And even if you get a full-length express on that line, I don't think it'll attract the customers who have seen the speed of the E.
I reckon it would attract a hell of a lot of them, IF they are headed downtown.
The J/Z make 18 stops, taking 44 minutes to reach Chambers St.
Now imagine an express stopping: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Woodhaven, Broadway Junction, Myrtle/Broadway, Marcy, Essex/Delancey, Bowery, Canal, Chambers - 10 stops.
As mentioned in another thread, each stop takes on average 35 seconds, so the 8 stops saved would theoretically save 4 minutes 40 seconds. The idea of a flying express track direct on Jamaica Avenue, eliminating the nasty S-curve would save a little more time, so let's be ultra-conservative and call the time gain 5 minutes.
You would then have a route which took at most 39 minutes Jamaica Center to Chambers St. The E train takes 46 minutes, so there is a clear advantage of 7 minutes.
Plus the E train makes 20 stops, so it would actually feel much more of a difference - people tend to overestimate the amount of time lost by each stop, some say it's around double, so you have people thinking they're losing another 5 or 6 minutes on the E train. People would be gaining a lot of time (15%) and think they'll be gaining even more (up to 28%).
The big question is: how frequent a diamond-J service would be needed for it to be worthwhile?
IIRC, there are 12tph on the E train at peak times, ie an average headway of minutes, or an average wait of 2½ minutes. This means that for no advanatge on the diamond-J, the average wait has to be less than 9½ minutes (time gained + average wait for alternative), or a headway of 19 minutes - or anything more than 3 and a bit tph would work. However, people tend to over-estimate time lost waiting on the platform by anything up to half, so realistically over 6tph would be needed.
Running an express at 6tph should present no problems. Current J/Z service provides skip stop stations with 6tph and all stop stations with 12tph - seemingly suggesting that 6tph local and 6tph express would be a just solution. Indeed this would need no extra trainsets - the return trip to Broad St with peak direction expess would be 92 minutes, skipstop is 97 minutes, all local is 102 minutes; so local plus express both at 6tph would be 9.2 + 10.2 = 19.4 = 20 trainsets, 2 skipstop services both at 6tph would be 2 x 9.7 = 19.4 = 20 trainsets.
A proper express on the Jamaica line would therefore be of a lot of utility (and people should and probably would like it!) for a small to medium scale capital investment. And the MTA wouldn't even need more trains :-D
NB - key assumption Ridership at the two Jamaica stations is high enough to justify express service - it will almost definitely be, but it is an assumption nonetheless.
In a thread a few months ago (no, I don't feel like looking for it), someone posted the running times for the E and the J/Z. I think the station they used was Chambers Street/Nassau and Chambers/WTC to Jamaica Center. The J/Z was actually a faster route to downtown than the E. And that is only with the J/Z skip/stop service. Obviously, a Jamaica El express would no doubt be faster to downtown than the E. The E being a faster route is only perception, even now without express service on Jamaica. (of course midtown is a different story since the J/Z would require a transfer, but that's another story - without Chrystie service). As for Sutphin and JC ridership warranting express service, your assumption has to be correct. With LIRR Jamaica Station, and all the bus routes serving there, it has to work well.
As I said earlier in this thread, out of all the dual contract els that were built with center tracks (or a provision for one), ironically the only one they didn't actually build (and left it as just a provision) was one of the most necessary, the Jamaica express track!! West end, Culver, Jerome, White Plains north of 180, Astoria, etc could all have been done without, and even though we live fine without the Jamaica one, I can almost gurantee that if Jamaica's would have been built along with all the other ones I just mentioned, it would be used today. The one that they didn't build when they built all the others, was the most important of the group.
I agree, Jamaica express track should have been built esp. now that it is located in a transportation hub at jamaica station. Again they already have the connection at Christie st. With the hub in jamaica they probabaly would generate ridership to mid town esp. with the express and the amount of stops on the Jamaica line would becomes the more quicker ride into manhattan. the only other express track in brooklyn that should be used for express service should be the culver line. that also would save time for commutes into manhattan. just bring the cross town local back down to church st like they did years ago.
john
I agree, a Jamaica express [Z's would take the role] should be instituted look at how Jamaica is booming these days and it would bring some E riders and new subway riders to the Jamaica line heading toward lower Manhattan in particular but it should coincide with a Nassau line renaissance [we could imagine right ;-)]. It would NO DOUBT beat the E to lower Manhattan[AM] and to JC[PM] it would cut like 7-10 minutes in travel time.
YES! The Culver express shall return! Ok back to business, currently you can't run a full Culver express b/c of the Bergen interlocking disaster so it could only work if you start it from Smith-9 St to Kings Hwy in the peak direction. I thought of this a while back so I'll put it here again. Since V's currently can't come to Brooklyn, this could be a interim plan.
(F) 6 Avenue local, Culver local, Queens Blvd express. Regular from 179 to Brooklyn but then Kings Hwy F's would run local with in Brooklyn to Kings Hwy
6 Avenue local, Culver express, Queens Blvd express. Regular from 179 St to Brooklyn then switches before/after 4 Av and runs express to Kings Hwy in the peak direction then all stops to Av X; Stillwell Av if it opens before the interlockings are rebuilt which is likely to happen.
(G) Crosstown local, Culver local. Would be extended from Smith 9-St to Church Av all times except nights to provide additional service for the F on weekends as well as weekdays. Of course, the Church Av terminal switches would be upgraded.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
I agree it would make the Jamaica el a more desirable and attractive line. They started to build the flyover but as you see, it only goes as far as Alabama Av and obviously room for a 3rd track from Cypress Hills to 121 St. It would be faster and less crowded than the Queens Blvd express, you could do it like this:
(J) Nassau Street, Jamaica local. Broad St to Jamaica Center runs express from Marcy-Myrtle Av in the peak direction the same hours as today; then all stops to Jamaica Center
(M)Nassau Street local, Broadway el local. Myrtle Av-Metro Av all times[9 Av middays, Bay Parkway rush hours]. Runs with the V from Essex St making local stops to Metro Av.
(V)6 Av local, Queens Blvd local, Broadway el local. Would be the other plan for extending the line from 2 Av; would have expanded hours. Runs from 71 Av to Metro Av [2 Av weekends]. Runs normal then branches off from the F line then uses the connection to run via the Willy B then the B'way el local via M line for additional service and would use 60' cars.
(Z) Nassau Street, Jamaica express. Broad St to Jamaica Center skips Bowery, runs express from Marcy Av to Jamaica Center rush hours in the peak direction. Makes express stops at Marcy Av, Myrtle Av, B'way Junction, Woodhaven Blvd[would be rebuilt], Sutphin Blvd and finally Jamaica Center.
This would eliminate skip stop service and would create a real express service; although skip stop on the line was successful, it has to make way for the express service. The V would be the best candidate to use the connection *IF* a Culver connection doesn't materialize [basically the backup plan] and runs to Metro Av to help out with the M.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Just be sure you don't go over 30 tph on the Willy B.
All together it should be around 27-28tph -->7 J's, 7 Z's, 7 V's and 6 M's. Intervals are around 8 minutes [a 2 minute increase on the J, V and Z] on the J, V and Z while the M is every 9-10 minutes.
The original plan called for a middle express track and a fying express track along Fulton St. (a la 3rd Ave). It was never built because they wanted to speed the line's construction to meet the massive demand for it after we entered WWI.
There never was a middle express track on Jamaica Ave. except for the 2 spurs you mentioned. The spur at 111th was put there because this was the terminal for a time in 1917 as the line east of there was under construction.
No, no, no we were talking about the Broadway el on the 1/9, sorry about the confusion. AFAIK, a middle track was NEVER installed for regular service HOWEVER, it seems like they started to build it but then it was removed since there is imprints of wood that was on it so track had to be placed on it. Yes, the QJ did run express to 168 St but it looks like it ran via local track.
Yes it did, making the KK a useless alternative to the F from Jamaica.
Well, my usual visit to NYC during Christmas. I rode the LIRR to Hunterspoint from Port Jefferson on train 607 having DM30AC's 505 on the west end, and 520 on the east end with 5 cars in between. Then I rode the #7 utilizing a set of R62A's. Arriving at GCT, I went in and to my surprise, not only one, but two trains of ACMU's (Pullman NYC era cars from the '60's) on two different trains. Going back to the subway, I took the usual R142a on the 6 seeing the R142a on the 4 for the first time along with the usual R62, and new R142's on the 5 for the first time. At 59th, I got off, and went to 63rd to the F, and it was an R46 set. Stopping at 57th, I saw an R32 consist on the F going in the other direction. I got off at Rockefeller Center to see the tree, and walked up to FAO Schwartz. After that, I went to 60th St. to take a W to Brooklyn, and view the "Mass Destruction" of Stillwell. This is my first ride along the West End in a few years. I stopped in route at Bay 50th St. to take some shots. Then I arrived at Stillwell Ave., got off, and took a B68 bus (Grumman type #914). Arriving at Brighton Beach, I got onto a (Q) which is on the CI bound express track, and on the Manhattan Bound Express track outgoing. After seeing my Grandmother off of Ave. J, I went back to DeKalb, and got onto a slant on the N. Along the (Q), I stopped at Prospect Park, and took more pictures. Surprise! One set of R40M's with south motor 4462, and north motor 4465 was headed toward Manhattan, so I took a shot of it. After getting on the N, I went to Whitehall, and walked over to the South Ferry Station on the 1, and 9. When I got onto the train, I met a chinese fella, who identifies himself here on Subtalk as MrX-2001. The ride past Rector, and the closed Courtlandt St. Stations are in very good shape after renovation. Railbuffs talking about the subway made my ride very exiting. We got to Chambers, and got onto a set of R62A singles on the 3 (1908 the lead motor) and cruised along on the express until I bid him a farewell at Penn Station to board my train to Port Jeff which left at 4:19 on track 16. 508 was the lead motor while 504 was trailing, and got to PJ 5 minutes early. Good day to railbuff, and the bast day for me in all of my years railbuffing.
Storage tracks that seem unused all over the system.
Are they used to store spare rails and spikes?
I see rails, barrels of spikes and/or bolts all over the ROWs.
Has any one ever done an inventory of all this crap?
Some of it has been there for years. Some looks to have been excess from rehab of elevated track beds.
An example is near Liberty Ave , just as the A train gets on the Rockaway Branch. Lots of OLD surplus, been there since Hector was a pup.
avid
Surplus...... as in MTA Surplus Sales??
That $50 buck processing fee prolly goes to ajax-off all
the dust and rust accumulated to them surpluses in the time
since Hector was just a small doggie..
In all seriousness, good Q about why they haven't been
picked up nor stored elsewhere (indoors?)...
My wife and I just saw "Two Weeks Notice" two days ago and we both enjoyed it immensely, but my wife had to calm me down when they showed Coney Island. I nearly jumped out of my seat then and in subsequent scenes. Of course there was this typical movie liberal interpretation of things and Demos featured all over the place but the movie was a lot of fun. The only real bummer is that the Cyclone was blocked by a building and was never shown, although some of the Wonder Wheel and all of what is left of the parachute ride was there for all to see. Make it your business to see this flick. It is a good one.
I've been looking through the 'historical' car roster ect., photos on this site lately, and noticed how many pictures were by either Joe Testagrose or Doug Grotjahn. Does anybody know either of these two, or anything about them?
I run into Doug Grotjahn last Friday night. He's a great guy with much knowledge of the system since he's been photograhing it for about forty years now. He's very much involved with rapid transit photography. Doug was on the Redbird fan trip of three weeks ago.
He also sells some of his slides and photos -- mostly at ERA* or UTC** meetings.
Joe Testagrose has been taking pictures of the NYC subway system for about the same amount of time as Grotjahn. However, I have yet to meet him. I believe he's still around, but not sure if he's still actively involved in shooting the equipment.
*Electric Railroaders Association
**Urban Transit Club
Joe is still around, living in the area. I don't know if he's active in photography but he did ask me to mail him a copy of his R-32 photo as plagiarized by the New York Times. (That's been my only communication with him.)
Douglas Grotjahn is credited for use of his vintage photography for my subway calendars for some years now. Doug has an eye for composing photograghs that's the best I've seen. Whether in the subway or outdoors, you can tell Doug's images compared to other railfan photographers. He's been photographing the NYC subway as well as other systems since the early 60's. He's up there in notoriety with Steve Zabel, Eric Oszustowicz and Glenn Smith.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have known Doug and Joe since I joined the ERA back in 67. He got me into 35mm photography.
Doug is not wired yet, but Joe is on the net somewhere. Doug is always in the New York Division meeting.
Courtesy of his many posts to alt.binaries.pictures.rail is Joe's e-mail address: Joseph Testagrose - joet1@worldnet.att.net
I'll take "legendary traction photographers" for $500, Alex".
--Mark
WHATS WRONG WITH SUBTALK. IT SEEMS NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT NEW THINGS ANYMORE. Wha ever happen to the redbirds. Which are in and out of service
We DO talk about new things constantly; maybe you just miss out on some of the topics. We recently talked about which Redbirds are in service but you must of missed it. Some new topics out there [some may be redundant but hey we talk about new things that we didn't talk about in the past and may have missed] like "Second Av Subway", "Manhattan Bridge North Side reopening?", "New Lines in Queens" and "Wash the R142 on the 4" so if you need to catch up, then well catch up ;-).
"WHATS WRONG WITH SUBTALK. IT SEEMS NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT NEW THINGS ANYMORE."
Maybe it's the "holiday lull" causing the doldrums here. Maybe after the new year, things will liven up a bit.
Bill "Newkirk"
You might be right that there is a "holiday lull". Perhaps some of the "Sub Talk"ers are on holiday. :)
#3 West End Jeff
And probably when when regulars come back from their vacation, there will be newbies who got computers for Christmas.
And then you'll have some people you demonstrate their inability to use the computer by the content of their posts.
#3 West End Jeff
Probably their first postings will have the word "Test" somewhere in the subject line.
Hopefully otherwise they'll have some good questions.
I want to talk about OTHER RAIL SYSTEMS .........!!!
besides nyc only...... ok folks ??
now i do not mind hearing about the nyc subway ......etc......
I have to agree, SubTalk hasn't really been booming lately, before it was like 565 posts a day, now it's 365 posts a day, even on the WEEKDAY! Whatever happen to interesting Amtrak Topics, or any other Rail Services?? That's the SubTalk I want back, I like the live SubTalk we had a few months ago.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch The Next Wave in Train Modeling
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Its just a slowdown mainly b/c of the holidays, it can't be live all the time sometimes it will be dead here but most of the time its ready for 'action'. So maybe next year things will be back to normal, new year means new things to discuss.
Maybe new is slow, I dunno...
If you think this is slow, check out NYCRail... :-)
If you always want something to talk about, even something completely off-topic, head over to the Rider Diaries...
Besides, Redbirds have been done to death on here...that is such old news!
If you think this is slow, check out NYCRail... :-)
Yeah, that board has completely slowed down, sometimes to only one or two new posts a day! It probably is just the Decemeber rush. Everyone is busy. Even if not with Christmas, it's the new year rush, a lot of people on vacation this week, it's the end of the quarter for a lot of businesses in Decemeber and bookeeping year, etc...and seeing how it seems many of us post from work quite a bit......
Actually it's been like that ever since SubTalk came back.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch The Next Wave in Train Modeling
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
what right microsoft train simulator ..............
Woah there, no need to turn the caps lock on! If you want to start a new topic, go right ahead. It's okay for this board to have a slowdown, especially during the holiday season. I think we need it anyways, considering the way this board got flooded with posts when there was the possibility of a strike (and it's understood why there were so many posts back then). -Nick
Jersey Mike’s third annual “Sub Talk SEPTA excursion” was a good one, although it was actually a West Jersey Chapter NRHS excursion, since all five participants were Chapter members, with only two SubTalkers in the group.
We met at the Market East station to take the R2 to Wilmington. A great photo op was missed when Silverliner II #269 came in as the last car of a train going the other way. Unfortunately it was an out-of-service train going to the yard and it didn’t stop. 269 is the car that still says “PENNSYLVANIA” on the side.
We returned from Wilmington to 30th Street, ate lunch, and took the R6 to Norristown. While waiting for the R6, we were entertained by watching SEPTA BL15 #50 (diesel switcher) ramble through the station on the R6 track. When we were on the Norristown Local headed down toward Suburban Station, we missed another photo op: the BL15 was pulling an ALP44 and a half dozen coaches up the hill from Suburban Station toward 30th Street.
From Norristown we took Route 100 (Norristown High Speed Line, Philadelphia and Western Railroad) to 69th Street, then Route 101 all the way to end-of-track in Media. Route 100 is third rail electric and 101 is pantograph/catenary LRV. We walked to the Media R3 Regional Rail station (based on vague directions) and were fortunate to find it (after crossing 4 tracks) in time to catch our R3 train with 2 minutes to spare (hourly service). Disembarking at the Clifton-Aldan station, we then got a Route 102 Sharon Hill trolley with perfect timing: we caught it because it had to stop for a red light (street running in part of Clifton Heights).
Returning to 69th Street, daylight was fading rapidly, so we called it a day and took the MFSE to 8th & Market and took PATCO to our respective stations.
My photos (including Acela Express and subway-surface trolley before I went to Market East) are on a Webshots page.
Nice pics. A shame you didn't catch that ALP44.
As always Bob, great shots!
Lately, while riding on the Hudson Line, and occasional trainspotting at Mott Haven, I noticed Comet III Cabs and coaches marked for Connecticut Commuter rail, which I assume is Shoreline East. My question is : Did Metro-North/ConnDOT swap this equipment or did Shoreline East go belly-up and Metro-North purchased the coaches for their services?
Lately, while riding on the Hudson Line, and occasional trainspotting at Mott Haven, I noticed Comet III Cabs and coaches marked for Connecticut Commuter rail, which I assume is Shoreline East. My question is : Did Metro-North/ConnDOT swap this equipment or did Shoreline East go belly-up and Metro-North purchased the coaches for their services?
Shoreline East is alive and kicking.
The Cars were incorrectly labeled for Connecticut Commuter Rail.
a non existing railroad and a figment of imagination of some CDOT officials.
the divered the new cars ordered for Danbury and Waterbury Service to Shoreline East on Arrival.
the cars are now to stay in MNCW pool but 3 end door cars were traded to Shoreline East , to start replacing the Constitution liners (SPV's).
the Centerdoor cars were needed on Danbury and Waterbury to make the trains ADA compliant.
Those coaches are also for service on the Danbury and Waterbury lines. Like with NJT/MNRR joint service, the guest railroad provides equipment that goes into the general power pool. CDOT provided those shoreliner cars for the Danbury and Waterbury trains and they went into the general MNRR coach pool so they don't necessarily have to appear on those two lines.
Oddly enough, I believe that the SLE equipment pool is dedicated for SLE service so one would only ever see CDOT equipment on SLE trains.
I figured that. The coaches used on Danbury, Waterbury service only have end doors, hence Comet II Shoreliners. But the SLE cars I saw have the center door on them with the SLE logo. Kind of strange seeing them on Hudson service let alone coming so far west of Stamford, CT.
the logo you saw was Connecticut Commuter rail.
not the SLE logo
Ok, this may catch me heck from the PATH fans, but bear with me here.
Does New Jersey really need PATH? It serves a small group of people, mostly connecting two train stations to new york. It used to be perfect for the Lower Manhatten commuters, but now it's terminal down there is dust and it's restricted to packed trains running to 33rd, right next to the NJT trains in Penn.
I do not think that a line such as PATH is really needed, and that more people could be served if it was replaced with something that could serve a greater number of people and would be all-around more flexible than the Path ROW. Extending some of the Subway lines from New York would be nice, but most of New Jersey does not have the density to adequately support any large scale effort like seen in New York around the (previous) turn of the century. Really if the 7 or L line was extended to New Jersey, all it would do is serve, again, a limited corridor with limited ability to support it, and we'd have PATH all over again.
However, if the PATH ROW were to be given to NJT to play with, possibly in a joint NJT-PATH operation, NJT would be able to bring their LRTs directly into New York. Riders on lines like the NCS, the HBLRT, and the NERL would all have direct access to New York. Also the LRTs are inheirently more expandible than the current PATH ROW, which prohibits Grade crossing or Street running, the NJT Kinki cars could do all that, and would be capable of moving at near PATH speeds on the grade separated sections along the NEC.
The plan would be pretty straight forward, NJT gets the ROW, but the PANJ-NY gets a percentage of the ticket profits. All the High Platforms at the PATH stations would need to be lowered, at Newark, the ROW would be raised so that it's still a level cross platform transfer to the NJT trains. NERL trains would climb up to the current PATH relay tracks just after Newark Station. As for the NCS tracks, either a new Tunnel could be bored under the Passiac river, with the west or southbound portal being in the NCS's current terminal, and the east portal being somewhere out around harrison, possibly further, or the NCS could detour on the streets with the current plan for the NERL's MOS-2 work, which includes a portal for southbound running out of the Newark Penn terminal. It would be nice to see LRV running up and down Springfield St, I don't know the traffic on that street, but it appears to be too far north from the NERL and too far south for the NCS to serve it, adding service down this street would provide LRT coverage for most of the city of newark, these Springfield st tracks would either go north to the end of Springfield st, where they'd join the NCS's tunnel and access the old PATH ROW the same way the NCS does, or they could streetrun east on Market to somewhere near where the NERL will be getting ready to climb up to the ex-PATH tail tracks. Special service would be provided 33rd-Newark as PATH does now, with two or three cars coupled together just for those that currently ride PATH to their NEC, NJCL, or Raritan Valley trains.
The LRTs would follow the PATH tracks all the way through Journal Square and Grove St. Just after Grove, all trains would veer north, to Pavonia-Newport. This is where the HBLRT from the south would join up, giving riders from Bayonne, Jersey City a one seat ride into New York. It would be nice to see Staten Island get in on the act, there were provisions for an outer car or LRT lane made to the Bayonne bridge, and presumably the LRVs could make the grade at either end. The northern section of the HBLRT would serve Hoboken, with rush hour trains bypassing it (Hoboken's a terminal stop, they'd save considerable time) while a local service ran Hob-33rd for all the Main Line and PVL riders. The HBLRT's northern section would join the PATH ROW at the 3 way junction, having entered the tunnel just north of hoboken and tunneled under the hoboken complex and past the old PATH terminal. In effect, other than possible street running locals, the HBLRT would be split in two, the section north of HOB, running to the Park and ride, Fort Lee(?), and possibly the Meadowlands complex, and the southern section, running to Bayonne, Jersey City and Staten Island.
Other possible route alignments could include the Meadowlands, as I noted above, the old Boonton line, or service to the north along the Hudson, also as noted above. The meadowlands is an obvious pick, if New York gets the 2012 olympics, the Meadowlands will most probably be included in the venues, all those people will need to be handled, and running an LRT originating at 33rd st in Manhatten makes sense from that angle. The line would follow the Northern Branch of the HBLRT out the north portal, but would veer west pretty quickly, it would climb over, or possibly tunnel under the hill that the NEC and the Hoboken lines duck. It would join up with the Main Line just south of Secaucus, provide service by NJT's LRVs there, alleviating some of the people on the NEC. The line would follow the Bergen County Line up to just south of the State Route 3 overpass, there it would head north for the Meadowlands sports complex, where it would double as a circulator, with one or two short trains looping up and down the complex.
The Boonton line could be used as an express line for LRT users to the north and west of the NCS's current terminal at Grove St in Bloomfield. The NCS and the old Boonton line could even be connected, it's not much further than the Montclair connection, and these trains do not need a dedicated ROW, any street will do. From the old Boonton line, other line would originate, running out to Tenafly, Englewood, and possibly further, all of it, with the Mid Town direct service providing Montclair with an excellent choice for going to Manhatten.
I don't know if the tunnel would need to be modified, I'd think that the LRVs would be smaller than the PA cars, although the LRVs need to have a catenary, and that could add to the height needed for each car. Extensive modifications would need to be made to the Platforms, since the Kinki Sharyo cars are low floor, either the plaforms would need to be lowered or the trackbeds would need to be raised.
You may have noticed that all trains would go north just past Grove St, meaning that the old PATH line to the WTC would see no service. Any such service would be superflous, what with NJT trains running down Brother Elias' excellent plan for a Downtown Transportation Center. The two old, narrow, and dangerous original H&M tunnels would be completely bypassed by two new double tracked tunnels leading to an NJT/LIRR terminal in Lower Manhatten. Of course, to provide an equal service to both the LRT and Commuter Train passengers, I would add a station at Exchange Place, where the NJT and LIRR commuter trains (LIRR having come from the MMC, like NJT does with Sunnyside) would accept LRT or Riverpass tickets, good for one ride between Exchange Place and Downtown Manhatten. I think I'll let Brother Elias explain the rest.
Duh-what?
WTC PATH station is being agressively rebuilt as we speak.
All path needs is the extension to the ariport that the PANYNJ vetoed in the '60s
And the LRT's wouldn't be approved by the FRA for running on the NE Corridor. So this will never happen. They didn't even approve the SJLRT for that.
>>> So this will never happen. <<<
You guys are real wet blankets, responding to those grandiose plans with such a dose of hard reality. (You forgot to mention that there is no money for it either.) :-)
Tom
Alright, there you got me, the good old greenback. Sadly I have little answer for that, although maybe we can get some money back from the PA5 order, pawn them off on some other transit agency. The NCS is there, and the NERL is mostly funded IIRC, so really the only challenge would be getting the NERL and NCS up onto the PATH tracks, lowering platforms or raising trackbeds, and getting the HBLRT into the act somehow. NJT has shown over the past few years that, unlike the MTA and PA, it can actually get stuff done, why not give the riders of the NCS, NERL, HBLRT and any future expansion of NJT's LRT lines at least the possibilty of a one seat ride into manhatten. Right now their screwwed into a two fare ride, which is completely unacceptable.
okay, NJT and PATH, and HBLR, and Newark Sunway should have integrated fares available.
However, PATH is a heavily used and IMHO well run outfiy--don't mess with something that works. See >>http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm<< for riders per route mile, PATH scores quite nicely. What should be done is extend the Newark Line to the Airport transfer.
As to Light Rail v. "subway" TPH, the entire issue is signaling/ATC or manual setups. Once you have implemented the most sophisticated system, the passenger throughput depends on warm bodies per train. "subway" service wins hands down.
As to platform heights--dead level to the car floor is well proven, and PATH, HBLR, NCS each match their ROW's.
As to improvments, YES an FRA full size multitrack Jersey-Lower Manhattan-Brooklyn tunnel route should be built. In my view it should be catenary. NEC compatible such that ultimately ATK, NJT, ConnDOT, e al could run service best tuned to the markets in question.
I might add that the PATH tracks are not FRA now, their wholely separated from the NEC tracks and run as the outside tracks while the 4 NEC tracks run inbetween them. LRT service wouldn't change any of that, it'd still be business as usual for the NJT trains, cept now Harrison would be low platform.
PATH is DEFINITLY under FRA perview. Change @ Hoboken & like it.
PATH is FRA. used to be part of the Pennsy
>>> I might add that the PATH tracks are not FRA now <<<
An interstate railroad not FRA?? Hard to believe.
Tom
actually that is not ASAIK the criterion. WMATA is interstate but not FRA. no regular interchange w/national rail system. PATH USED to be connected, and thus was under what became FRA. IMHO its status COULD be changed, but the politics are huge.
Incorrect. PATH operates under FRA rules and its rolling stock is FRA compliant.
Alright, I did not know that they were actually rebuilding the WTC PATH terminal now, that certainly messes it up.
Why in the heck would anybody want PATH to go to the airport? You know that the PANJ-NY won't let people go to Newark for less than it costs to go to JFK or LGA, so you'll still end up on the Monorail, paying your five dollar surcharge, regardless of whether you ride their PATH train or an NJT train. Whats worse, an extention of PATH service to Newark International would create a Triplicate service to the airport. PATH, the Newark Elizabeth Rail Link, and the NJT NEC line would all serve it. If you wish to differentiate between the various NEC lines, then you'd have no less than 5 carriers there, since it would be Amtrak, NJT's NEC line, the NJCL, the previously named ones, and I'm not even counting bus lines.
If you have to spend the money to make a line to the airport, why not instead do something to help those in the lower class neighborhoods around Newark, rather than simply helping the white collar businessman as always, those people need transit, they need something better than bus service, and a two fare ride into manhatten if they were unlucky enough to get a job there. Running the LRTs into manhatten would be a definite step in the right direction.
Why do you insist on spelling Manhattan as manhatten.
Why PATH to the airport transfer,? for the employees who work there as well as travelers. 5 services, I'm shocked, shocked. Waych 'em fill up.
PATH would be cheaper, and faster to get to EWR. And when the WTC loop is repaired and opened, why travel uptown to pay more by using NJT to the airport. I'd rather pay $1.50 plus $5 surcharge for the monorail than if I remember correctly, $11 to use NJT.
Does New Jersey really need PATH? It serves a small group of people, mostly connecting two train stations to new york.
????
You obviously don't ride PATH often do you? The trains are far from empty, even before everyone was squeezed into the 33rd Street run.
It used to be perfect for the Lower Manhatten commuters, but now it's terminal down there is dust and it's restricted to packed trains running to 33rd, right next to the NJT trains in Penn.
The old WTC station is being rebuilt, to everyone using 33rd Street is temporary.
I think I'll let Brother Elias explain the rest.
Thanks for visiting my website! : )
Actually my drawing is for NJT/LIRR service, which entails 10-car/85-foot trains. This means all new tunnels, I propose four track tunnels so that each railroad could control their own train movements through the station and out both sides. The idea here is that WTC is a STATION, NOT a TERMINAL.
Beyond that, I envisioned a new mission for PATH. The PATH station and service will return to WTC under my plan, but its usefulness as a bridge carrier from NJT to NYC becomes moot, especially given the new Seacacus Transfer, and more lines having direct access to Penn Station.... And ironically, this new capacity points to an even greater need for LIRR to access both GCT and WTC to free up more platform space for NJT at Penn.
My vision for PATH then, becomes one of a Park-and-Ride bridge carrier, serving humongous meadowlands parking facilities, and coneecting them to mid and downtown manhattan. I think that my plan closes the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels to all but busses during the rush hour, and then opens it to trucks during night and non-rush hours. People with cars can use the Verazno or Washington bridges for access to the Bronx or Long Island, but is in unison with my plan to eliminate private cars from the Manhattan CBD.
Elias
You seriously need to ride the PATH Trains, if that's what you think, the PATH Trains are always packed, especially during Rush Hour.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
"Does New Jersey really need PATH? It serves a small group of people, mostly connecting two train stations to new york."
PATH carried as many people on its four lines in 2000 as the Long Island Railroad did. And while the WTC had a lot of people in it, it still only represents a subset of lower Manhattan commuters. Ridership is steady, because more people are riding PATH these days.
Would you like to shut down the Long Island Railroad? After all, it serves a small number of people on a little island east of Manhattan. :0)
"It used to be perfect for the Lower Manhatten commuters, but now it's terminal down there is dust and it's restricted to packed trains running to 33rd, right next to the NJT trains in Penn."
It still is "perfect" for lower Manhattan. It needs extensions, though. Your idea of integrating it with other subway services is a good one.
"I do not think that a line such as PATH is really needed, and that more people could be served if it was replaced with something that could serve a greater number of people and would be all-around more flexible than the Path ROW"
You have some good ideas in your post, but as to your basic premise, well, it might be better if you stayed away from the tequila bottle before you posted...
It still is "perfect" for lower Manhattan. It needs extensions, though. Your idea of integrating it with other subway services is a good one.
Not a tremendously bad idea, but it could only be connected to one of the IRT lines. It is not built to IND/BMT standards.
My opposition to it may be totally selfish though. While it would make it easier to commute to Manhattan for Jersey residents, the reverse is also true, it would make it easier to travel to Jersey City, etc. Do we really want to make Jersey City more inviting to companies, so that even more businesses leave Manhattan for New Jersey?
My main concern is keeping Manhattan an important place for businesses to be, it keeps our great city strong. While I want it to be easier for people to get to Manhattan, I don't want it to be so much so that the reverse is true, and companies start questioning, "Why are we in New York City again?" and head out to Jersey City, etc.
Interesting point...
My opposition to it may be totally selfish though. While it would make it easier to commute to Manhattan for Jersey residents, the reverse is also true, it would make it easier to travel to Jersey City, etc. Do we really want to make Jersey City more inviting to companies, so that even more businesses leave Manhattan for New Jersey?
My main concern is keeping Manhattan an important place for businesses to be, it keeps our great city strong. While I want it to be easier for people to get to Manhattan, I don't want it to be so much so that the reverse is true, and companies start questioning, "Why are we in New York City again?" and head out to Jersey City, etc.
If transportation to New Jersey weren't so easy, companies that find Manhattan too expensive indeed might decide that Jersey City isn't an option. Sure, some of them will stay in Manhattan. But others, probably many more, will pack up and move to Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, etc. etc.
Would you rather have them in Jersey Çity or in the Sunbelt?
Well, I guess Jersey City is the Lesser of two evils. I wish the LIC project and even some in Brooklyn would take off like Jersey City had. At least they could still stay in New York City, even if not Manhattan.
I wish the LIC project and even some in Brooklyn would take off like Jersey City had.....
But these areas were already built up, and had no large tracts of land for the more open, sprawling buildings and complexes that see to be springing up on the Jersey side of the puddle.
To tear down and then to build new is very costly, and fraught with NIMBYs, nevermind that all of the NIMBYs are now out of wrok sice there jobs went over there.....-->
LIC and Brooklyn *will* grow nad rebuild, but the time is not yet.
Elias
>>> Not a tremendously bad idea, but it could only be connected to one of the IRT lines. It is not built to IND/BMT standards. <<<
You are completely ignoring the more important political reality that PATH is an inter state railroad, which will not be connected with either the IRT or IND/BMT. Changing the physical characteristics to match either width would be easier than integrating PATH with MTA.
Tom
Ah yes, the Manhat-o-centric monster raises it's head! I swear I'm not making this up, the universe does not revolve around New York! So what if New Jersey is able to grab a few companies to fill some of our office buildings? New York isn't going to die, if anything hopefully city hall and Albany will see what's going on and respond in kind, to keep the business in New York. Certainly New Jersey sure as hell shouldn't play dumb so that New York gets ahead of it only, all the while falling behind the world as a pair. Think of Jersey City and Newark as the hyenas that keep the Lions in New York honest, we both need each other, and the more competition between the two, the better, so long as it doesn't start driving customers away.
As for the IRT subway thing. WHY? A subway is as you find it, be it heavy third rail or light catenary rail. A much better solution would be to have the LRTs run to 33rd st, where there is a good interchange with the 6th ave subway possible, a free interchange, or more realistically a common farecard would work well.
As for the IRT subway thing. WHY? A subway is as you find it, be it heavy third rail or light catenary rail. A much better solution would be to have the LRTs run to 33rd st, where there is a good interchange with the 6th ave subway possible, a free interchange, or more realistically a common farecard would work well.
Why? Because the tunnels are too narrow. BMT/IND cars sized cars will not fit without major reconstruction. IRT cars would fit into the PATH tunnels. I meant it physically. As for a free MetroCard transfer, sure I'm all for that. But it's not quite as easy as a transfer between the 6 train and the F train. The Port Authority owns PATH and the MTA owns the subway. As someone mentioned, the Physical reconstruction of the tunnels might be easier than a union between those two entities!
Physical reconstruction of the tunnels might be easier than a union between those two entities!
Even the physical reconstruction would be quite a feat.
The downtown PATH is below the 1/9 and the 6 terminates in a loop below the 4/5, so I suppose a deep Park Row tube would make that connetcion possible.
However, the midtown PATH is a bit harder - someone mentioned there was a tunnel above the IND from 34th to 42nd which might be large enough for trains or maybe enlargeable - if this is usable it would provide entrances for a 38th St station. At 42nd St the shuttle would be in the way so the line could turn East onto the Southern pair of tracks in the shuttle and leave the shuttle the Northern two at its East end. At Grand Central there is a provision for extension Eastwards, passing over the Lex IRT. This would leave 2 options - either try somehow to descend to the Steinway tubes (quite a gradient!), or run as a new line along 42nd St, then turn up, say, 1st Avenue and provide much needed service to UES (stops perhaps 2nd Av, 49th St, 57th St, 67th St, 72nd St, 79th St, 86th St, 92nd St).
Ingenious ideas. However, you have just wiped out the mezzanine levels at Herald Square and GCT. These have no trains, but they handle huge numbers of people. Now you have to get the people down to the existing trains (B/D/F, N/R/Q, 4/5/6/7) some other way.
You might think for one minute that PATH can be replaced with LRT, you are wrong. You might think that it can be replaced with better service, it can't. PATH is moving fast at reopening Exchange Place, with longer platforms to accomodate 10 car trains, it is ahead of schedule to have it opened this year, the old tunnel "L" is already reopened and tracks are about to be dropped, and once WTC is reopened, the 33 and even the midtown direct service passengers will be on those trains. Even now without those services, the 33-Newark trains are packed. Also, cutting Atlantic Avenue LIRR service and giving it to the TA for "high speed service" sounds like you aren't in the mood for improving mass transit. The TA doesn't provide anywhere near high speeds anymore. You would be replacing 80 MPH trainsets with 45 MPH ones. What is dangerous about the H/M tunnels? I think I'll vote no for the Dobner Transportation Bond Act. Never bite the hand that feeds you.
Interesting ideas. I've been pondering myself on how to better integrate the NJT Light Rail and PATH services.
However, I'm afraid that light rail is just not adequate to handle the crowds that PATH sees on a daily basis. At least not the type of LRT that currently exists in NJ.
The Metro Blue and Green lines in LA seem like a higher capacity light rail lines and something like that, able to run with several cars, might be able to succeed under your plan.
But I also envision a much more expanded PATH system. The Lower Manhattan line would be extended past the WTC to the Battery Park/South Ferry area.
A line from South Ferry would go north, then bypass the WTC, go under the Hudson and serve Liberty State Park - both the CNJRR terminal and the LSP Park/Ride, then run northwest to Journal Square.
Another line would run north from Journal Square toward Fairview, North Bergen, possibly into Fort Lee.
Another would run across from midtown into West New York, across to Secaucus. Another line would go to Secaucus and the Meadowlands using the Bergen Arches ROW.
This plan would be aimed particularly at being an attractive alternative to the heavily-used Hudson County interstate buses (154, 156, 159, et al).
Also I forgot to mention - it would no longer be PATH, but MTA Hudson Transit.
The IBOA bus lines in Jersey City would also be taken over by the MTA under Hudson Transit.
>>> The Metro Blue and Green lines in LA seem like a higher capacity light rail lines and something like that, able to run with several cars <<<
The Blue Line runs three car trains with a capacity of 230 per car. Less than 700 people on each train. How does that compare with PATH at rush hour? Light rail remains "light."
Tom
Interesting plan. I like your Liberty State Park service.
See Old Tom's point about Light Rail, though. Light rail, if on its own ROW, offers a higher capacity and throughput than bus services, but it's not nearly up to heavy rail service standards.
Ummm,where the hell are your brains!? Pluto or WTF!? Eliminate PATH!? are you INSANE!!? Ride PATH more often you numbskull before you say something like NJ doesn't really need it and that it only serves a small group of people!!Not really needed,you can't be serious!
I must say in my own defense that I have riden path several times during rush hour, yes the trains were packed. I believe my brains are still in my head, although if you want to get down to the sub atomic level, I'm sure that a few of the electrons reside outside my head, as does everybody's.
It's nice to see my plan dismissed out of hand, that makes things fun...
Right now thousands of people have to ride busses, LRTs, and commuter trains to Newark Penn to catch a PATH train to manhatten. All those people have to transfer in Newark Penn to PATH, my plan simply offers more of those people a one seat ride into and out of manhatten while sacrificing little. LRTs can be run closer together than the Heavy rail PATH cars, come to philly and look at the Sub-Surface trolleys at their lowest headways, so while you eliminate seats per car, you increase the TPH of the line, so it all comes out a wash. Throw in muliple car trains and hopefully with the increased TPH, you'd get much better service. As I said, specials would be run right along the old PATH routes, starting at Newark Penn and terminating at 33rd, so that the morning PATH commuters wouldn't need to fight with the NERL and NCS customers.
Again, as I said before, LRT does not need nearly the ridership to support it that a PATH or NYCT heavy rail line would need, this means that the line can be pushed into smaller areas of New Jersey, where the ridership numbers would make it the worst of all NYCTA stations. The big thing about this is the flexibilty that it gives the system, suddenly the HBLRT is linked to the NCS and NERL, and passengers on all systems and other future expansions have the possibilty of a one seat ride to manhatten, something that NJT should be commended for working to offer commuter train customers, but which they have as yet not paid any attention to for LRT customers.
The only solution would be for a dedicated LRV tunnel across the Hudson. There is NO WAY LRV patronage levels could ever justify that investment.
How about if lines from all over northeastern New Jersey came together at this one point? Certainly then it could come close, I have no doubt that property values would rise along the Hudson even more if the property owners there were suddenly along a line that had direct access to Manhatten, rather than the current two fare to Manhatten garbage. Hopefully with that rise in Property values would come a rise in ridership on the HBLRT. Undoubtedly further back from the river, on the NERL and NCS passengers who now transfer to the PATH would avail themselves to the one seat ride.
Also, Light rail is inheirently more expandable than PATH, more people in the lower-income areas around newark would be served by this than would be by something as frivolous as a PATH extention to Newark Airport. Which would, by the way, TRIPLICATE a service on one corridor.
There is NO WAY LRV patronage levels could ever justify that investment.
This is patently untrue. You just stand by the mouth of the Lincoln Tunnel during rush hour, it is solid packed wall to wall BUSES, all of which *could* be profitably replaced by LRV! The environmental benefits alone would pay for the effort.
I have been proposing my 34th Street Mall idea. The lowest level is the street, no changes... next level up LRV from LIC to NJ, the idea was to simply service Park-and-ride stations at both ends, but could just as easily serve outlying areas.
The level above this is the Mall, owned by the landloards along the street, who could expand thier buildings right into the new mall, and rent out space to botiques, stores and starbucks., the top level is an open air promanade the width of Manhattan.
Elias
That is a different story. I support ANY proposal to replace rubber tired vehicles of any kind with rail vehicles of any kind.
So what is wrong with changing trains.
It is more effective to run one big train than several smaller ones.
Heck, out here even SCHOOL KIDS have to change SCHOOL BUSES for their trips to school. (Several smaller busses arrive at one of those old one room prairie schools houses, and change to a bigger bus for the rest of the ride to the school, which may be as much as a TWO HOUR DRIVE one way!
And we sure as heck are not talking about PAVED ROADS either!
: ) Elias
Sounds like you need some Light Rail for a smooth ride!
You must have drank too much Jack Daniels to come up with something like this. Jersey City will might as well be another borough for NYC, even though it's in NJ. Hudson County does not have much passenger rail service if any at all. Light rail lines are all that cover south of Hoboken. PATH is all that Jersey City has and, let's not forget our little or should I say, big neighbor to the south, Bayonne. PATH should build a line out to Bayonne because I feel that HBLR is not too sufficient a service. The last time southern Hudson County saw a commuter train was in 1978 with the NJDOT "Scoot" shuttle from Cranford to Bayonne, even earlier service to Jersey City was abandoned by CNJ by the state's "Aldene Plan".
By all counts, PATH is all they got. To abandon that would be foolish, to convert to Light Rail would be suicide.
I do agree about having some NJT Rail connections. As far as I know, the closest Rail station to Bayonne is Hoboken, probably the only passenger station in Hudson County, not counting Harmon Cove.
I say, get rid of the Light Rail line in Bayonne and let PATH take over the ROW. I know grade crossings are no good, but we still have some unused freight lines that can possibly be used with hardly any grade crossings at all.
Light Rail is for Amusement Parks, not major cities.
Light Rail is for Amusement Parks, not major cities.
I disagree - Brooklyn (and parts of Queens) had a huge network of trolleys including even an underground terminal in Manhattan. It would be perfectly fitting for the major city NYC is for LRVs (aka trolleys) to operate over the Willy B again.
That was actually another one of my ideas - a PATH line to Bayonne.
And that old "scoot" between Cranford and Bayonne should be reincarnated as a LRT line - maybe starting at Journal Square and running down the west side of JC and Bayonne, then over Newark Bay into Elizabeth then west to Cranford.
That was actually another one of my ideas - a PATH line to Bayonne.
Could go the whole hog and send it across the bridge, hook it up to the North Shore Line and have PATH to St George or even Tottenville!
Either that, or convert SIRT to a commuter rail operation and send the North Shore line over the Arthur Kill and connect it to the Northeast Corridor.
Think of it this way, take a navy ship. We'll use two weapons systems to stand in for the commuting options, in this case, Jersey Mikes old standby, the CIWS, and my favorite, the standard missile. Modern naval ships use both a CIWS (Close-In Weapons System), and a long to medium range missile system, in this case the Standard, to provide all around coverage. The Standard goes for the targets at long range, the CIWS soaks them up once they get too close for the Standard to get into position to handle them. Currently the CIWS is being replaced by a short ranged missile, the RAM (Rolling-Airframe Missile).
Now, to apply this to the transportation situation in northeastern New Jersey, think of Manhatten as the ship, and the potential passengers are the targets. You need to effectively deal with both the distant people in places like Hackettstown, Trenton and Suffern while still not giving the passengers in places like Elizabeth, Tenafly and Jersey City the shaft. In this analogy the NJT commuter train is obviously played by the Standard missile, great for working far out where there is room to get up to speed and so on, but in close it doesn't have the manuverabilty to effectively handle the passengers in close to the city, you can't pack an FRA compliant train into a sharp 90 degree corner down the middle of the street and expect it to keep up speed, it's not going to happen. The CIWS's part is played by the busses that currently pack the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, thousands of them, streaming into and out of town, they're supremely good at moving passengers, but their range is also quite limited by the fact that who wants to sit on a bus forever, they're noisy, and, except in some cases, their often quite uncomfortable. They're also play things of traffic, prone to being late due to the slightest whim of the accident gods. Now light rail is the RAM, capable of doing the same job as the Bus/Ciws, but capable of doing it much more effectively, carrying more passengers per operator, and avoiding the traffic that plagues busses, so long as it's given moderate sections of private ROW to make up time lost on Streetrunning alignments. The LRT is perfect for picking up passengers close into the city, it can be run right on roads, down alleyways if need be, it can duck into a tunnel to get past something. LRT does not need the passenger loading that a subway line requires, New York is a special case, everything is so damn packed there that if you string a line in one direction, you'll get ridership. New Jersey's not like that, so far all the plans I've heard, aside from the one nut who thinks that Bayonne can support a full fledged PATH extention, center around simply linking traffic hubs like Newark Penn, Secaucus, Hoboken and EWR to New York. This does nothing to help those people caught too close to New York for NJT, or even PATH to be of any help. Often those people need the most help, if they had a dependable fixed way to get to Manhatten, perhaps they'd be able to get soem better jobs, and if not, then at least your cleaning lady would show up on time more often.
As for PATH, in this analogy, its pretty clear. PATH is the Sea Sparrow, an adapted bastard child of a missile, modified from an Air-to-Air missile, it had neither the range, nor the manueverablity to effectively deal with a real threat. It could only fly eight miles, and yet if the threat were to be anything other than a direct 90 degree head-on threat, it would most likely miss. In the same way PATH is a bastard child, as are all Subway lines, a marriage of heavy rail and trolley service, they seem to combine the worst of both parents.
Rarely does a Subway line serve the areas that need it, and then if the funding were available, it can't, because NIMBYs scream about the noise it will bring. Subway lines entail all kinds of paraphanalia, either an El, which cuts down on the construction needs, but brings howls from the NIMBYs along the route. Then theres subways, however, given the mere construction disturbances alone, the nimbys would have that one sunk very early. Now LRTs clearly aren't immune to the NIMBY problem, however, they succeed in one crucial area, they don't need nearly as many people on the line to justify the investment. It's simple, you could go out and either bore or bridge your way along, but when you go and open it, will the number of people riding it justify your expenditure? In Northeastern New Jersey, the answer most likely is no, you'll end up with a line like PATCO, where commuters must drive to the stations in order to be taken to the city, since the population density does not justfy the line being there. As I said above, New York City's five boroughs and the subway system are an exception, you could throw a line up practically anywhere, and you'd have a justifible ridership base. There is one thing that Northeastern New Jersey can support, it's LRT, LRT is nearly the perfect answer, as lines like the HBLRT have shown. IF you can achieve a point where you have spent nearly the same amount on the ROW as you are now making, then you've done it, the trick is to not spend all your money on ROW, as the PATH extention would do. You'd be starting deep in a hole with a questionable ridership base, and your one line would remain just one line.
Now do you think that the HBLRT should be torn up in Bayonne? It's clear that HBLRT is doing the job, it would be better if the line had some way to get downtown, to avoid this two fare garbage that the PA pushes on them. In no way does Light rail mean light passenger loadings, given an intelligent execution and a better set of rolling stock (getting a few goddamn FRA restrictions eased on top speed would be nice too), the HBLRT could haul just as many folks as any exention of PATH. And, more importantly, it wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to do!
One thing you seem to be missing is that Hudson County is very dense - even much of urban Essex County, around the Newark area, is dense enough to support rapid transit or subway-type service.
Indeed. Perhaps PATH should be expanded this way:
1) Extend the Newark Line to EWR with additional local stops (now being studied by PATH)
2) (Speculative) Have NJT sell PATH the Newark subway ROW and build a Newark -centric subway system with PATH rolling stock that would serve Newark and surrounding cities. Newark has the density to support three or four subway lines.
STEP ONE force PATH to integrate fares w/ MTA, NCS, HBLR. I don't care if the NCS is RUN by PATH, I just want the rider to have seamless services
Yes, definitely.
Integrating the fares is easy!
BTW: the fare is now $4.50.
Or would you rather pay for the parts that you are using separately?
Elias
Somehow, I don't think you've had enough PATH rides to understand the EXPLOSIVE ridership growth that PATH continues to experience despite 9/11. During rush hour, people have their faces pressed against the glass. The lowest ridership periods are middays and nights, but during rush hours and weekends, those trains are busier than several subway lines, including the aforementioned L.
Then again, I shouldn't pick on the poor L...the amount of L GOs over the past few years have been staggering.
lowest ridership periods are middays and nights
Are you sure about middays? I'm just curious because midday weekdays, NJT trains are still full of passengers (but no one standing) and it is not that easy to find a seat even on a midday train.
"ar" is referring to TOTAL ridership, not ridership PER TRAIN. There's a huge difference between the two. Where are more people carried -- full seated loads with one train an hour or full seated loads with four trains an hour?
David
YES. NJT has trains every 20-30 minutes n/b to NY on midday weekdays and every train is somewhat full. How many of those ride PATH? I don't know. But passengers rather like to take NJT into Penn because it's more convenient in that NJT gets there faster than PATH (NJT - 15 minutes, PATH - 33 minutes from NWK to 33rd) and a change of trains is not necessary.
In this case, the ridership per train is similar to TOTAL ridership, in that in all cases, trains run full (in seating) or close to full.
PATH has trains running every 10 to 15 minutes weekday middays, which makes it reasonable for its ridership during this time.
Anybody out there know anything about the Central Operating Lines open house in Ronkonkoma this weekend? I read about it in Newsday the other day. I understand they have a big train layout including NYC Transit trains. Is it worth it to take the family?
If they're intrested in trains, why not. That's worth a days outing, even better if you go by train.
It turned out to be a nice layout. I'm not really into model trains, especially after playing with the lifesize stuff at Branford however it was really impressive. They even had an IRT train on their layout with redbirds and blue & white World's Fair "7" trains. There was also a trolley and LOADS of model freight and passenger trains. I drove there but if I had known it was walking distance from Ronkonkoma Station I would have taken the train. Here is the url for the Newsday video on the open house:
http://www.newsday.com/ny-modeltrainvideo,0,1711748.realvideo?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dright%2Darea
Great link, Jeff ... thank you. Too bad the clip didn't show too much of the subway running ....
--Mark
I see you took my advice. That really did sound like a nice event. I tried the link you gave and I really couldn't see much. I wish I was out there to see it in person. Unfortunately, today I had to work. Thanks for sharing though.
It looked like a fun event. Kudos to the model RR operators!
I was just wondering if anyone has had an oppotunity to take any new pictures of the Canarsie line at Atlantic av station/Broadway Junction. That was one heck of a elevated junction at one time. I was just wondering what the area presently looked like
thanks
john
There was a pic taken north of Sutter Ave showing the new route that the Manhattan Bound L trains would take. Someone will probably bring it up for you. That was about 3 weeks ago.
As I understand it, work on the L line has been suspended for the winter.
The new track configuation was supposed to have been made between Friday December 13th at 8PM and Monday December 16th at 5AM.
The general order actually was started and was cancelled as of 6AM on Saturday December 14th because of the possibility of a strike happening on Monday morning.
I was talking to a motorman this morning and he told me it was being rescheduled for sometime in January when all required changes can be scheduled.
Thank You
I stand corrected. I should have said suspended until after the holidays. But I have a feeling this will continue for a while.
I believe that work will require one additional weekend after the change is made.
The original weekends were December 13th to December 16th and December 20th to 23rd.
Thank You
I'll be surprised if it only requires 1 more weekend.
The first weekend is when the conection mad, the second weekend is for removing the track and sigals from the old route.
Robert
Make that "I'll be surprised if it only requires 2 more weekends."
Presidents' Day weekend (February), actually.
David
thank you to all. I appreiate the information and will keep an eye out for any pics. May you all have a happy and safe new year
John
"I was talking to a motorman this morning and he told me it was being rescheduled for sometime in January when all required changes can be scheduled."
Well good, that gives some of us railfans some time to get in those last shots who missed out. A good shot would be through a railfan window of a last car of an R-42 consist passing through the "S" curve.
A reprieve !
Bill "Newkirk"
I took video of the entire el above Snediker Ave and the "S" curve leading into it from just about every angle imaginable, from street level. Details will be forthcoming when I release my new video list in a few weeks.
--Mark
Is this one of us?
Not one of us. Just one who took from us.
This is what happens when railfans snap. LOL
Heh. Somebody grab a mug shot so we can post it at Branford. :)
I've got a really good idea but I don't think it would be very popular, somehow...
>:)
-Robert King
Don't GO there. :)
I don't plan to. Doing so would be cruel and unusual punishment for everybody concerned!
-Robert King
He didn't just snap, he crackled and popped long before this (according to the newspaper)
Hey, Road Dogg. You got it wrong! When a Railfan snaps he goes and builds an R-9 cab in his bedroom!* LOL! :)
*with apologies to heypaul
Nope, just a railfan who went over the edge and took his love for trains to the next level.
Off the deep end. It is one thing to have a love for trains. It's another thing when someone starts breaking into employees lockers.
If he wanted a job that much with the MTA, all he had to do was apply for the test, sheesh. He could kiss that dream goodbye b/c it seems like he will be blacklisted from getting ANY job in the TA.
Chances are he'll sue TA, MTA and NYC if he does apply and gets turned down. Be it for: criminal record, 1 in 3 turndown or never passes the exam. He'll claim his civil rights were violated. He's just a poor boy who's dream of becoming a TA employee was thrarted by unfeeling and uncaring members of TA brass. I can also hear the tears in his voice and the violins in the background now.
Of course he won't admit that he impersonated an employee several times and was arrested with people's personnal items reported stolen from employee lockers.
Why should he sue if he did this to himself, come on he shouldn't throw his chances away to work in the MTA. He looks like a bright person but commiting a crime by stealing workers personal belongings is NOT the way to do try to get in the MTA.
He'll probably claim that he "borrowed" other employees personnal equipment because the TA wouldn't give him his own. How can he become an employee when he can't get the tools he needs to be an employee? And what's to say after he becomes an employee he will stop breaking into fellow employees lockers?
He can't claim he "borrowed" the tools if he was never a TA employee, heck he may as well plead insanity and say he was high, mentally impaired or something! He'll probably break into more lockers but may not get caught that easily, its very hard to break a habit, particularly robbery, once you start its hard to stop.
No - he is not a rail buff or railfan or rail-anything at all. HE IS A CRIMINAL. Stop describing this individual as a rail buff.
Someone who steals cars is never refered to as an auto-buff, right?
--Mark
He is a criminal posing as a mild mannered rail buff.
The press always treats crimes of this sort against transit as being perpetrated by "rail buffs". I simply do not agree with this assessment at all.
--Mark
Somehow, I don't think this strategy is going to get him a job with the TA.
Especially if he's in jail.
>>> I don't think this strategy is going to get him a job with the TA. <<<
But it should get his picture posted in crew rooms when he is next scheduled for release from jail.
Tom
It is already done.
Exactly - most job application forms have a variation of this on them:
Have you ever been conviceted of a criminal
offence for which you have not received a pardon? [ ] No [ ] Yes
If they nail him for theft under five thou, he's screwed and not just for jobs with the MTA.
-Robert King
Or maybe it's a brilliant gambit. Think about it!!! TWU rank-and-file vote down the present contract proposal. Roger Toussaint re-opens negotiations that eventually stalemate. This leads to a strike. roger is arrested. He goes to jail where he meets our hero, Edward. Absolutely brilliant when you stop to think about it.!!!!!!!!
Then Paturkey grants clemency to Edwards and he picks up the 0726 interval out of Bedford as a strikebreaker. Win-win. :)
Heh. HIM again. There's a little thing someone needs to explain to the boy about having an arrest record and trying to get a civil service title. Sounds like it'll be Darius time again soon too. CSX is hiring. :)
At least he didn't hijack a A train like the teen did back in 1993[I forgot his name] or the Darius guy over the years as you mentioned. Ha, CSX could use some more employees :o).
Actually, if it's who I think it is, he *did* hijack an A train, the article made mention of that. Then again, it's the POST. Who KNOWS if they got any part of the story right. :)
Clearly they didn't. They identified this criminal as a rail buff.
Therefore, according to the Post, we are all criminals. heypaul, return your Arnine cab to the authorities IMMEDIATELY!
--Mark
They'll have to come and grab those handles from my dead, cold fingers. :)
Maybe he can learn some political science while he's in the clink. He's got a future in THAT profession.
Well, in case you forgot the kid's name, it was Keron Thomas ("Keno" by his peers)...on May 3rd '93, he took control of an A train for about a good 2 1/2 (some say it was 3) hour ride. He made all of the proper stops, but his adventure stopped when he approached a curve too fast and sent the train into BIE, and he couldn't reset the brakes. Can you believe he did all of this as a 16 year old?
I most certainly can! I knew Darius McCollum in 1981 when HE was 14 (Yeah I knew that character, saw him around) and in that year he operated an E train in the middle of the night, for about an hour. Then some passengers saw him and decided he looked a wee bit young to be a t/o and reported him. He's doing time now (again) for impersonation, too.
If Irecall correctly, he was, some years after that incident, arrested and convicted of armed robbery and assault with a deadly weapon - which erased any sympathy people might have felt for him.
He knew how to reset the brake, by the way. He was afraid of encountering rats in the tunnel and refused to leave his cab.
Well I heard as soon as he was called in for questioning or something, i forgot what it was, he ran away.
When the supervisor took him in a car to TA headquarters at Jay Street, he bolted as soon as they arrived at 370 Jay Street. The supervisor was dumbfounded; but a couple of phone calls later the TA figured out the real T/O was out sick that day.
THAT'S who I was thinking of. The POST mentioned that Mr "Brown" (Oh shades of Pelham 1-2-3) had stolen an A train for a 45 minute thrill ride (or words to that effect) and knowing how great the POST is for journalistic cluefulness, I assumed that perhaps these two were the same "guy" ... when I was 16, I was involved in the theft of a southbound Broadway local from 242 until we abandoned it just north of 191 and hit the street. :)
What, you did that, too?
Can you believe he did all of this as a 16 year old?
Yes.
Why do you think a 16 year old is supposed to be less able than a person who is better traveled?
I think I see the problem here
21 year old Edward Brown has been arrested again. I say again because, despite his age, Edward has been arrested 16 times for impersonating a motorman (according to the NY Post 12/28/02 “RAIL BUFF’S NEXT STOP: JAIL AGAIN”). He was charged with grand larceny, criminal possession of stolen property, trespassing & criminal impersonation. According to that same article, Mr. Brown has already been convicted four (4) times in the past three (3) years for burglary, larceny and criminal impersonation. This time he is suspected of breaking into employee lockers at the Mott Ave. Station in Far Rockaway on December 8, 20 and 21. And lest you think this is another ‘Central Park Jogger’ bust, he was arrested, this time, at grandma’s house while wearing a stolen motorman’s uniform.
Mr. Brown has no remorse nor has he shown any contrition for his naughty behavior. In fact, according to the Queens District Attorney’s office, Edward Brown says that he will continue to break into crew facilities until the TA hires him. In between arrests, Mr. Brown continues to, hang out in crew rooms - chatting with real employees, attend union rallies and functions and in at least one case, he’s appropriated a locker for himself in an RTO crew room (to store uniforms and equipment stolen from other lockers).
Anyway, as I said, I think I see where the problem is;
It’s not Mr. Brown’s fault that he’s repeatedly getting arrested – he’s got a life-goal, after all.
It’s not the fault of Mr. Brown’s parents who, seemingly, never taught him any real ethics or values.
It’s not his nana’s fault for never questioning him as to where he got the motorman’s uniform.
It’s not the Cuomo-esk criminal court system that has allowed a person convicted of felonies 4 times in 3 years to walk away from a work release program when he should have been treated as a persistent felon.
It’s not the Cuomo-esk criminal court system that has allowed a person convicted of felonies 4 times in 3 years, period.
This is not even the fault of the TA (who’s security in supposedly secure facilities may need a bit of tweaking) or the TWU. Not directly, anyway
From the liberal’s point of view, this is clearly the fault of the City of New York and the New York City Department of Civil Service. After all, it was they who made the Train Operator’s job, ‘Open-Competitive’ instead of a promotion. Had they left things alone, Edward Brown would not have had to break into the lockers of train operators and steal their uniforms & keys in pursuit of his career goals. Instead, he could have simply stolen a mop, a bucket and a broom, stood on a platform and wait for his promotion from cleaner to train operator. Well even progress comes with a price.
But alas, we must now look to the future. Presumably, Mr. Brown will be tried, convicted, sentenced for his current crime wave. When he is deemed ready to be released back into society – society should not fail Edward Brown again. Society, instead, should seek to be a bit more creative – to rehabilitate and socialize Mr. Brown. Possibly, instead of being paroled into a work-release program again, he could, this time, be paroled into a halfway house-type setting. Perhaps one could be found equipped with a faithfully reproduced R-9 cab. There, Edward Brown can gradually go through ‘Transit’ withdrawal – safely away from society. He then, one day, may be able to re-enter society as a proud & productive person. On the other hand, there could be a “Clockwork Orange”-type result. Mr. Brown may just switch to stealing those highly prized skee-balls from amusement parks and arcades. Well, there are no perfect solutions…….
This liberal blames New York City for not locking that kook up in a mental hospital. BTW, Dude, what did poor Heypaul ever do to you (please keep Brown away from my F40PH control stand)
"what did poor Heypaul ever do to you?"
John, I don't recall mentioning poor heypaul.
Who else has a skee-ball fetish and an R9 cab 8-)
"It’s not the Cuomo-esk criminal court system that has allowed a person convicted of felonies 4 times in 3 years to walk away from a work release program when he should have been treated as a persistent felon. . . .
"From the liberal’s point of view, this is clearly the fault of the City of New York and the New York City Department of Civil Service. After all, it was they who made the Train Operator’s job, ‘Open-Competitive’ instead of a promotion. Had they left things alone, Edward Brown would not have had to break into the lockers of train operators and steal their uniforms & keys in pursuit of his career goals. Instead, he could have simply stolen a mop, a bucket and a broom, stood on a platform and wait for his promotion from cleaner to train operator. Well even progress comes with a price. "
Huh? Cuomo hasn't been governor for a very long time. We might just as easily say Pataki-esque.
Also, what liberal have you heard saying this is the City's fault? Just another Fox-News-esque red herring.
Personally I don't see how the TA could NOT hire someone with so much energy for what most people generally believe is a fairly craptastic job. If our society was was more economically oriented they would sentence him to work for the MTA as a T/O. The only catch would be that he would only get minumum wage and each night he would have to report back to his "cell" in some crew base or abandonned station. Meals and board would of course be subtracted from his pay. End result, the TA gets 5-10 years of cheap, highly motovated labour and the state saves an additional 15k per year in prison costs.
But no, the MTA is happy w/ its current set of employees who are always 10 seconds away from going on strike. Instead of hiring people who would rather go to jail than work, they should hire this guy who would go to jail than NOT work.
Mike, I have to admit it. You have amazing insight for a guy with such limited potential.
Right on, Steve
You're missing the point, Train Dude.
The man has an obsession. He is clearly mentally ill, and should have been identified and treated at an early point in his "career." In my view, he qualifies for involuntary confinement for treatment purposes. Simply sending him to jail won't help and won't solve the problem.
Notice that the man is not violent, nor does he appear to steal things of value strictly for the purpose of self enrichment (eg cash, credit cards, etc. etc..) The article implies that the only things he stole were uniforms, for the purpose of wearing them (I'm not saying this causes no loss to the employee). But he clearly does not intend to hurt anyone, so his case should be dealt with in a different manner from the case of someone, mentally ill or not, who actually harms or threatens another with violence, or who is a "criminal-for-profit."
So the criminal justice and mental-health systems have failed him - we have not responded appropriately to his (and now, our, problem).
If the city does offer him appropriate mental-health care, however, it should be under conditions of confinement in a facility, not at home with "nana."
And the presiding doctor will be Dr. McCollum? :) After all, he does have experience in matters such as these .....
--Mark
Ron, on the contrary, I think it's you (and everyone else) who missed the point. The main point of my post was:
From the liberal’s point of view, this is clearly the fault of the City of New York and the New York City Department of Civil Service. After all, it was they who made the Train Operator’s job, ‘Open-Competitive’ instead of a promotion. Had they left things alone, Edward Brown would not have had to break into the lockers of train operators and steal their uniforms & keys in pursuit of his career goals. Instead, he could have simply stolen a mop, a bucket and a broom, stood on a platform and wait for his promotion from cleaner to train operator.
I see the tongue-in-cheek aspect of your post (it's laughable, either way, so might as well not take it seriously).
But the fact remains, Mr. Brown should have received mental health services very early (imposed on him, not optional) - and did not. You and everybody else in NY are paying extra tax money because of that failure. That part isn't funny.
Ron, of course you are correct. However, I think that every criminal has a certain degree of mental disease or defect. After all, how does a right-thinking person smack a 70 year-old woman and steal her purse. How do 3 people who's car has broken down on a Pkwy in the middle of the night, and are offered a ride by a total stranger, turn around a kill that person because they wanted his car? How do a brother and sister kill and set fire to a couple-friend of theirs to get their hands on a $9,000 insurance settlement? Of course, the last 2 cases actually happened recently while the first is virtually a daily occurrence. I think that a case for some mental defect can be made for any violent criminal. With not too much stretching, you can project that to most any criminal.
Anyone fitting the general description of "bully" must have some defect, I suppose (yes, no, maybe...)
I think that a case for some mental defect can be made for any violent criminal. With not too much stretching, you can project that to most any criminal.
It's all too easy to be glib and describe criminals as mentally ill, but these are really two separate things and not necessarily related. I think it's one in nine people who will at some time in their lives suffer from a mental illness. Many of these require hospitalisation (I have been in a mental hospital before). The last thing you need in a mental hospital is a pack of criminals.
New York's gone the other way. The mentally ILL are sent to prison since New York isn't willing to pay for psychiatric care. Some say this started with Geraldo Rivera's "exposes" of Willowbrook and other state mental institutions gone wrong, lawsuits to "protect the dignity of the mentally ill" fought to DE-institutionalize them, and both involuntary and voluntary commitment were done away with in order to save money (this is Paturkey's own PRIDE in abolishing state hospitals) and then dumping the mentally ill on the streets. The MAJORITY of homeless in New York are dumped mental patients.
So the ONLY treatment for the mentally ill in New York is called "solitary confinement" in a "Special Housing Unit" (SHU) in state PRISONS. Other than jailtime, there's little if any "treatment" ... that's a fact. If you're going to lose it, don't lose it in New York.
So the ONLY treatment for the mentally ill in New York is called "solitary confinement" in a "Special Housing Unit" (SHU) in state PRISONS. Other than jailtime, there's little if any "treatment" ... that's a fact.
The words "Out of the get Middle Ages" - not in that order - spring to mind.
Yeah, we have republicans here. They want to bring us back to happier times of the 80's ... the EIGHTEEN 80's ... "bring out your dead ... clang!" There's over 800,000 unemployed Americans who just got word yesterday that their unemployment cheques are no more. HAPPY NEW YEAR!
But Ken Lay of Enron is STILL walking the streets. Funny how it works out here, steal a loaf of bread and you'll do ten years in jail. Steal BILLIONS from the elderly's retirement funds and the poor and you get appointed to a high position in the government. Whatta country! :)
P.S. while out tax $$$ are being spent on incarcerating disturbed folk like Mr. Brown instead of hospitalizing him, YOUR city government wants to VERY QUIETLY take away 38 EMS units and 17 of our supervisors, too. Not to mention allowing cuts in service on YOUR subway, which in recent years, ridership has never been higher. What a city!!!
What a state and what a country too. But hey, look at the bright side, the suit covered anuses will have more moo-la to spend in raised property taxes and they'll still come out behind too. As long as there's tax cuts for the rich, all is well. As Leona Helmsley allegedly put it, "only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes." So if you ARE paying taxes, then you're one of us, and not one of them. Never COULD figure out why the trailer park folks like the GOP so much. :)
Also, ALL the major subway improvements of the past 30 years were public works projects under the Democrats! (The GOP folks, like Robert Moses, drive anyway). By the way, the GOP wants to further cut off funding for mental health at the same time they're making cuts in all your other services, too, so maybe Mr. Brown can be crazy AND sick in jail. He sure isn't going to receive therapy there.
Construction on the 63rd Street Subway started in 1969 under President Richard M. Nixon (Republican), Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller (Republican), and Mayor John V. Lindsay (Republican, though he ran for reelection as Mayor that year as an independent after losing the primary and subsequently jumped to the Democratic Party for a 1972 run for President). Construction on the abortive Second Avenue Subway began in 1972, with those same people in the same positions.
The MTA Capital Program began in 1981, while Ronald Reagan (former Democrat but by then a Republican) was President.
I don't get into political ideologies, but facts are facts.
David
Back in 1991, the NYCT prepared a special train to demonstrate for the (then) governor (Marious the 1st), the benifits of a Queens Blvd Super Express. The day of the planned, the imperious one never showed up. Last I remember - Marious was a card-carrying democrab.
If we had someone aggressive like Robert Moses [which I wouldn't agree on all his tactics] for the subways, the whole city & EVEN Staten Island would have most of the lines that were proposed.
Back on topic, Mr. Brown deserves to be jailed and should be blacklisted by the MTA for any job he applies for, he's been arrested wwhat 17 times for basically the same crime. If he's that interested in Transit, he shouldn't throw it all away and should do what most normal people do, apply and take the test you never know.
P.S. while out tax $$$ are being spent on incarcerating disturbed folk like Mr. Brown instead of hospitalizing him, YOUR city government wants to VERY QUIETLY take away 38 EMS units and 17 of our supervisors, too. Not to mention allowing cuts in service on YOUR subway, which in recent years, ridership has never been higher. What a city!!!
"P.S. while out tax $$$ are being spent on incarcerating disturbed folk like Mr. Brown instead of hospitalizing him"
And here-in lies the trouble with the liberal mindset. We spend money to put someone in jail instead of treating him in a hospital. Really? And the implication being that hospitalization does not cost $$$. First, I doubt that hospitalization in a secure facility is cheaper than being housed in a state pen. I don't suppose you'd have any numbers to support that point of view - would you? Then IF on the other hand, saving money is your prime objective, then a bullet will be cheaper than either hospitalization or incarceration. Perhaps your confusion lies in the politically correct naming of prisons as "correctional institutions" instead of the more accurate name - "Penal Institutions".
we'll save money over the long term by hospitalizing him, because with treatment and meds we reduce sharply the risk of Mr. Brown's recidivism.
And if correctional institutions were really prisons - where the goal was punishment, we'd also reduce recidivism. After all, I'm sure Mr. Brown didn't get 100% health care, 3 balanced meals per day, health club priviledges, cable TV, free education etc on the outside....
Increasing the harshness of prison is fine for people who are in for life, but for those who will be released at some point, making prison tougher will only guarantee that releasees and parolees are too damn fucked up to ever do anything constructive on the outside. Recidivism will only increase.
In other words, if we make prison harsher, then when Edward Brown is released from jail he'd go right back to breaking into train crewmen's lockers at terminals. Hmmmmmmmm, I think I see your point.
And if correctional institutions were really prisons - where the goal was punishment, we'd also reduce recidivism.
What data can you cite that supports this hypothesis?
"We spend money to put someone in jail instead of treating him in a hospital. Really? And the implication being that hospitalization does not cost $$$. First, I doubt that hospitalization in a secure facility is cheaper than being housed in a state pen."
On a per-day basis, a secure hospital facility is more expensive than a prison. But with proper care, many mental patients can be released back to society. In a prison they could languish indefinitely without improvement - and the total cost of imprisonment would eventually balloon past the cost of hospitalization.
A confounding factor is the number of psychiatric facilities which are not run competently enough to accomplish their stated missions.
But with proper care, many mental patients can be released back to society.
Not only that but put onto medication which will reduce the chances of relapse - this applies to depression, manic depression, schizophrenia and a number of other mental disorders and illnesses.
Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
Much though I disapprove of Tony Blair and his Labour Party, they don't seem half as bad as Dubya and his Republicans.
If only they were taking America back to the 1880's - standing aloof and stopping sending men to die in other countries wars and with the words at the base of the Statue of Liberty actually meaning something still - "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" - (isn't the point of the USA meant to be immigration - as Lincoln said "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration"). Oh and still building els...
This isn't a picture of any Britain I recognise, nor is it the modern America. If there is such a country, tell me where to find it.
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of trains is alive and well, and on sale in the lobby. Quantities are limited, void where prohibited by law. But yeah, these ARE interesting times we live in. Can't wait to see the SECOND half of this term ...
In the second half of his term we'll be sleeping in the subway, a la London Underground, 1940 because we'll be at war with everybody...
No risk of that - even if America were at war with everybody, very few people would actually have the capability of mounting a strike on the USA. Sure Saddam could bomb Israel and might be able to launch a missile at Greece, but America is a perfectly safe place to be unless Dubya turns into a suicide cult leader, the Canadians get nasty or someone decides to put missiles on Cuba...
Canadians don't get nasty. If they did, they would have joined the American Revolution instead of sticking with England.
Or, God Forbid, Sept. 11 repeats itself. It's a VERY different world we live in today, than just 2 years ago.
That is a scary thought. It is dismaying that such barbarism should happen once, but so much worse the thought that someone might do it again.
Your little political attack is a total non-sequiter. How on earth is this idiot's behavior in any way related to conservitive or liberal political philosophies? Your little attempt at pointed humour was weak at best. Open conpeditive test? Stealing a Mop? What the hell at your trying to get at? It seems like your grasping at straws because your subliminibobble Republican Programming kicked in and churn out one of your tri-daily uninformed attacks on some made up entity you have characterized under the label "liberal".
I actually met this kid at Main st.He seemed like ordinary employee,had locker complained about 5 trips knew dispatcher on first name basis.But it always struck me odd I never saw him operate ,never knew he was just a fake till the other fake at Main St. told me.Crew rooms have real security issues especially at heavily populated ones like Main st ,and Pelham.
Pelham don't have any problems however Main Street does. The R.T.O crewroom at Main Street has more Bus Operators then train crews in there.
I dont know about how New York does it but if he were in Massachusetts he would be held for a Psyc evaluation by the court and then if he was compitent go to a trial of his peers.
New York dismantled its mental health system years ago to save expenses. The asylum is now the street or the prison system. Egregioulsy mentally ill inhabit the "Special Housing Units" in major prisons, the not so violent are dumped on the streets and subway stations of New York City. But New York HAS NO "treatment" for the insane, costs money that's better spent on train stations in the middle of nowhere upstate and of course on Joe Bruno Stadium and the taxpayer-funded AA Rensselaer baseball team.
IDK about Pelham, but Main St is heavily used and so easy to access. As PBD mentioned, it is heavily used by NYCT B/Os (CS depot).
It’s not Mr. Brown’s fault that he’s repeatedly getting arrested – he’s got a life-goal, after all.
It’s not the fault of Mr. Brown’s parents who, seemingly, never taught him any real ethics or values.
It’s not his nana’s fault for never questioning him as to where he got the motorman’s uniform.
[...]
Nah - It's Hollywood's fault - he was influenced by that old TV show - The Pretender ;-)
[Had they left things alone, Edward Brown would not have had to break into the lockers of train operators and steal their uniforms & keys in pursuit of his career goals.]
You're saying that this guy HAD TO break in to lockers? Who put a gun to his head and forced him to steal? Nobody, that's who.
Brown CONSCIOUSLY CHOSE to do what he did, and thus accepted the consequences. Let's stop the blame game and hold him accountable for his own actions.
I guess with you humor starts and ends with larry throwing a pie at curley and hitting moe.
ONE of US ??
Bite your tongue.
This guy is the reason so called "foamers" get such a bad rap
Dave your just upset that no one wants to impersonate a signal maintainer, it is always the T/O with the glory.
In addition to no glory, there is ALL the responsibility. Is it any wonder that there's a mass exodus from Signals to turnstile maintenance?
Hey! I'm an Electric Railroad Enthusiast....NOT a foamer, thank you very much.
You know this really burns me when they say this guy is a railbuff.
He's no railbuff, he's an obsessed mentally sick individual with a criminal bent. Us railbuffs don't steal uniforms, keys, break into crew lockers and sit down and chew the fat swapping war stories with other T/O's. He's a sicko !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There is a variation of this thread where it wasn't his fault for doing what he did. BULL! It is one thing for someone to buy the clothes and tools to become a wannabe train operator.
It is another thing all together when this same person starts breaking into lockers and STEALING an employees uniform and tools. And who knows what else was taken? Not all train dispatchers at a tower are going to assign an "new" operator to take a train out just because they "look" the part. Sometimes they want to see an employees pass. If this buff shows a pass, where did he get it if he isn't an employee? From the same locker! And who knows what else was taken from a locker?
Of course some people who'll answer me won't see it that way. Then again that person answering probably never had someone break into their locker.
and you folks thought i was bad .
Salaam, his behavior in no way mitigates yours.
do you also want the death penality for me as well ?
dont shoot until you see the whites of thier eyes eh ?
Salaam, I never mentioned the death penalty - either for you or Mr. Brown. In fact I never mentioned any penalty for Mr. Brown other than being assigned to a half-way house to resolve his train fettish.
In fact, my original comments were meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But as long as you raised the issue, let me ask you a question or two. Why do train-buffs think that their 'interest' in trains entitle them to put themselves above the law?
If Mr. Brown was an airplane buff instead of a train buff and he continued to act as he does, what do you suppose would happen? Do you think he'd get a "slap on the wrist" from the FBI or FAA if he were arrested for stealing a pilot's uniform or ID? Mr. Brown not withstanding, do you think that being a plane-buff would mitigate a person taking unauthorized pictures of airplanes in a restricted area of an airport?
Thankfully, you have no seeming interest in medicine. This is fortunate because I don't think it would be tollerated if you pushed your way into the operating room of your local hospital to do some high quality digital photos of Mrs. Smiths gallbladder operation.
So, to seriously answer your glib question, no Salaam, no death penalty. But a little respect (for our rules) from your side would not hurt either.
An excellent post, Train Dude. Well argued.
About your line "thankfully you have no seeming ibterest in medicine", check THIS out: I am an EMS Supervisor in the Bronx, and, like Mr. Brown who impersonates transit personnel, we too have seen our share of wannabes. They wear EMS clothing, and, through the use of scanners, show up at our calls from time to time. So Subways aren't the only place to find folks like Mr. Brown!
train dude !! now i just wnat to make this clear !! you are not going
2 ship me to texass ( TEXAS ) for da' death penality ??
>>>>>whew ....!!!!..
Nope, Salaam, you're just too much fun to have around.
oh yea ?? ....is dat right !! .....................well....
see yah in 2004 !
Well, Mr. Brown "mugshot" is attached to Bulletin 84-02. The same bulletin that came out in "SalaamAllah" honor.............
at least i dont stick "socks in my mouth"----- like "heypaul"
Well, at least we real railbuffs don't do that. Yes, we take pictures like me, but on one end, trespassing, impersonating is not the best thing to do.
I doubt it (she's probably too much into modeling)...
Oh, you mean the guy in the article? I hope not.
This character is an out-and-out theif. Plan and simple. I wouldn't even categorize this bozo as a buff -- gives serious buffs a bad name.
Reminds me of the guy who would make false alarms so he could then go back into the then empty firehouses and steal from the donation box.
This a-hole should be put UNDER the jail.
I think the TA had this guy ready to go in case of a strike, and when
it didn't happen, he was so disappointed, this was his response?
I was visited today from Notchit, Harry Beck, Jeremy, RIPTA42HopeTunnel, David Cole and a reluctant heypaul. They got a bird's eyeview (not a Redbird view) of the Jamaica Bay area and eastern Brooklyn.
We ate junk food and viewed the award-winning TransitTransit video "Above and Below" which was quite good.
We're about to head out to do some railfanning on the Concourse and Flushing lines among other routes.
greetings and enjoy!
Humble abode or humble commode ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Aye, that!
Why was paul so 'reluctant' ?????
Well, he thought we would taint his fine and upstanding reputation.
Nah, the boy completely lost his last thread of self-respect last Christmas when he had Bingbong and I over to his place. :)
I like the fact that he's been pitching us some
rare pics of the 1 line (i/e the 168st tile behind those
stairs, the do not enter or cross tracks old style
fontage from 110st. etc) ... so he's fine by me...
(and I'm one who HASN'T even seen his r9 cab in person!)
Heypaul's a genuine TREAT in my book. He even has secret admirers in the TA. :)
Thanks Kevin. I'll have to ask Johnny who my secret admirers in the system are? They've been doing a good job of keeping it a secret from me.
Well, if I was to spill, then they wouldn't be secret any longer. But then, some routinely give themselves away. After all, you're the KING of "obsessed" (and damned proud of it) though I can think of one or two folks that are even more obsessed with you than YOU are. Heh. One has to think of the irony of that. What an AMUSING planet. Now about that secret entrance to the batcave ... gotta know where it is, I'm a bit short on BMT collectibles. Johnny wouldn't dish even after I offered him real money. Kept rambling on about "balls" ... :)
[He even has secret admirers in the TA.]
Uh, Carlos...did you know that TA could also mean Toilet Attendant?
Uh, Carlos...did you know that TA could also mean Toilet Attendant?
Eesh... but first we must find the TOILET in the TA...
thanks carlos... i'm glad you liked the shot at 168th street and the sign at 110th... i made a copy of the "all persons are forbidden ..." sign using a simpler font... i really like the old irt blue...
all persons are forbidden...
"Why was Paul so reluctant????"
Doug had told people that he lived high above the Junction area. But the word on the street from Johnny was he had a basement apartment that was entered from the street.
BMTman's basement accessway
It's got his initials on it, so there !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, and I plan to sell my 'front door' on Ebay next week! LOL! :)
Heh. That's actually the secret entrance to his batcave now that his original parking space cover was blown. Down in the underground facilities, he not only keeps his Klysler, he also maintains the BMTman dirigible, used for bagging those glorious Canarsie line structure shots.
Doesn't Doug have a wooden el car somewhere down there, too? Perhaps the remains of one of the cars involved in the Malbone St. wreck?:)
Nah, he's got THAT one stashed in Connecticut under a tarp. :)
...and if the front door ever goes missing, there are a few prime suspects ;)
Good to have you back heypaul. I hope this time it is for a long stay. How've you been? We missed you.
Where is that?
I'm going to have to go steal look at it.
That is actually what is know as the ill-fated BMT "large token".
Several of those prototypes were made as the BMT's first attempt at a reduced fare token for the elderly.
BMT management theorized that the larger size of the token would make it easier to find in change by the elderly, and less likely to be lost.
But the fact that these tokens weighed hundreds of pounds each, became a hindrance in the acceptability of these tokens by the elderly.
Not to mention the cost of building turnstiles to accommodate these "large tokens".
Well, Bill....we DID do some railfanning later in the evening out to FLUSHING! :)
Did you read my POTTY HUMOR post from a couple of days back?
And I visited you on the 2 train early sunday morning!
---Brian
I visit Amtrak's website to look at the schedule change after 1/23/03. There will be 10 AE roundtrips between NY and Boston, and still 12 AE roundtrips between NY and DC. The highlights are:
(1) AE 2104 will be replaced by Metroliner 104.
(2) AE 2158 will replace Metroliner 106 and extend to Boston.
(3) AE 2113 will be replaced by Metroliner 117.
(4) AE 2163 will replace Metroliner 119 and extend from Boston.
(5) AE 2116 will be replaced by Metroliner 126.
(6) AE 2118 will be created and depart from DC at 8:30PM.
According to this schedule, 13 AE trainsets will be used on a weekday basis. Currently 12 AE trainsets are running on weekdays.
Chaohwa
It looks like 3 AEs are being removed, and 3 added. How will there be one additional train on that schedule (13 vs 12)?
my previous post jumped to conclusions too easily. those aren't the only changes being made, just a sample.
This is why 13 AE trainsets are needed in the new schedule.
(1) Boston needs 6 trainsets to run Trains 2151, 2153, 2155, 2157, 2159, and 2163.
(2) NY needs 3 trainsets to run Trains 2107, 2190, and 2109.
(3) DC needs 4 trainsets to run Trains 2150, 2152, 2154, and 2158.
The following is the trainsets are going be used, where B1 means the first trainset from Boston, N1 means the first trainset from NY, W1 means the first trainset from DC, and so on.
(1) B1: 2151 -> 2168
(2) B2: 2153 -> 2170
(3) B3: 2155 -> 2172
(4) B4: 2157 -> 2112
(5) B5: 2159 -> 2114
(6) B6: 2163 -> 2118
(7) N1: 2107 -> 2164
(8) N2: 2190 -> 2167
(9) N3: 2109 -> 2166
(10) W1: 2150 -> 2171
(11) W2: 2152 -> 2173
(12) W3: 2154 -> 2175
(13) W4: 2158
B6 is the new trainset required. On the current schedule, W4 is dispatched as,
W4: 2104 -> 2113 -> 2116
Hopefully this explanation helps.
Chaohwa
Believe it or not, on a per-mile basis, accounting in the time for the stops, the Montague tunnel is faster than the Manhattan Bridge!
Dekalb to Canal over the MB is 8 minutes for 2.25 miles, or 16.9 mph.
Via tunnel, it's 4.0 miles, there are 5 extra stops, and it takes 14 minutes. Each stop takes an average of 35 seconds (I got this number by comparing the 1 and 3 between Chambers and 96th, a nice long run where the only difference is the stops). Subtracting out 3 minutes for the stops, it's 11 minutes for 4.0 miles. That's 21.8 mph!
Per the current timetables:
The 6:59 AM < Q > from Brighton Beach is scheduled to leave DeKalb Avenue at 7:22-1/2 AM and leave Canal Street at 7:31 AM, for a running time of 8-1/2 minutes. The 6:53-1/2 AM N from 86th Street is scheduled to leave DeKalb Avenue at 7:23 AM and leave Canal Street at 7:38 AM, for a running time of 15 minutes. Accepting "AIM"'s mileage as accurate (I don't have the listing handy), we've got 2.25 miles in 8.5 minutes, for an average speed of 15.88 MPH, vs. 4 miles in 15 minutes, or 16.0 MPH. Of course, I'm including station stops here, which I think is fair because they're a component of the total running time, but frankly there's no difference in AVERAGE speed (none that one could notice on the train, anyway) between the two routings. If I'm traveling between the two points and a bridge train and a tunnel train are both sitting at DeKalb Avenue waiting for me to board, I'm taking the bridge train if I'm in a hurry.
David
If I'm traveling between the two points and a bridge train and a tunnel train are both sitting at DeKalb Avenue waiting for me to board, I'm taking the bridge train if I'm in a hurry.
Well, no you wouldn't, not if you were going to Whitehall or to Rector St.
And well your time differential is ok if you were going to CANAL street, but what if you were going to TIMES SQUARE... It would probly be much better to wait for the express than to take the local that is sitting right there.
Elias
Read what I said again:
If I were traveling BETWEEN THE TWO POINTS and a bridge train and a tunnel train... (the two points, for those who didn't read the original, are DeKalb Avenue and Canal Street).
I never said I'd take a bridge train over a tunnel train to go to a station served only by tunnel trains -- though I've gone from City Hall to Canal Street to get a < Q > train into Brooklyn -- sometimes it works out better than riding an N or an R to DeKalb! And until "Elias" brought it up, Times Square was not part of the discussion, nor does it need to be.
The post I was responding to claimed (LOOK AT THE SUBJECT LINE) that (using) the (Montague Street) tunnel is faster than (using) the (Manhattan) bridge. My response refuted that claim, using sample trips from actual timetables. If my numbers are faulty, call me on it...otherwise there is nothing further to say.
David
Of course I'm not seriously suggesting taking the tunnel when the bridge route is available and you're going to Canal or further north.
I'm just poking a bit of fun at people who moan and groan about the horribly slow Montague Tunnel. I'm pointing out that when you're moving, you're actually moving faster than on the bridge. The only reason it takes longer is becuase of the extra stops and the extra distance, not because the speeds are slow.
Actually, the speed in the Montague Street Tunnel IS slow, especially northbound. I rode through it yesterday and observed that it is chock-full of timers. "Eric B." gave what I thought was a very good analysis of the situation in that tunnel. I was riding in a train of R-42s on the M with a fellow employee and suggested to him that it might be a good idea to change the timers governing the Broadway/Nassau Street split so they are only in effect for trains going to Nassau Street -- he agreed, but unfortunately he isn't in a position to do anything about it (though he talks to people who ARE...).
Some underriver tubes in the system have had their grade timers removed or at least adjusted to a very high clearing speed. Perhaps that should be looked into here.
As far as relative speed between bridge and tunnel goes, the bridge has 25MPH grade timers (less as one gets closer to the portal), and on the upgrades the removal of field shunting from the trains several years ago has meant that the trains can't get up to speed while they are going uphill. This means a long, slow ride. On the other hand, the Montague Street Tunnel is timered pretty much throughout its length, and the timers aren't signed for much better than 30MPH in either direction. Frankly, between the speed restrictions and the lack of field shunting, there isn't much difference in speed between the two facilities.
David
The difference between the bridge and tunnel isn't the bridge and tunnel. Tunnels are faster. The issue is those laborious curves, and the number of stops.
From DeKalb to Canal via bridge you have some switches, no curves, and no stops. From DeKalb to Canal via Montigue you have five curves, including some of the tightest and slowest in the system, on switch, and five stops. Plus a longer route. It costs you 15 minutes.
"It costs you 15 minutes."
It costs 6 extra minutes according to the published NYCT schedules.
Also, if you go back to my original post, you can see that the trains actually move at higher speed (WHILE THEY ARE MOVING) on the tunnel route between Dekalb and Canal than on the bridge route. The tunnel route takes more time only because of the extra 5 stops and the extra distance.
Of course, if it weren't for the sharp curves on the tunnel route, the average speed while moving through that route would be EVEN higher compared to the bridge route.
(It costs you 15 minutes." It costs 6 extra minutes according to the published NYCT schedules. )
Let's compromise at eight minutes -- the weekday W leaves Pacific at 9:57 and arrives at Canal at 10:08, 11 minutes later, while the R leaves Pacific at 9:30 and arrives at 9:49, 19 minutes later. Note: if it's one thing I hate its the abbreviated schedules with "every 12 minutes" or "frequent service." They briefly had every on line train before they went to Acrobat and a copy of the printed schedule.
That's 15 minutes a day in lost time for the 2/3 (now 3/4) of travelers going to Canal Street and points north.
From DeKalb to Canal via bridge you have some switches, no curves, and no stops. From DeKalb to Canal via Montigue you have five curves, including some of the tightest and slowest in the system, on switch, and five stops. Plus a longer route. It costs you 15 minutes.
It certainly seems to take an eternity.
The Bridge is definately better than the Montague tunnel... As you stated.. since those timers are there.. But you have to understand, the reason the timers are there, is because, the "M" merges with the "N" and "R".. Note! this is the only underwater tunnel that has this arrangement.. making it impossible to increase the speed through this tunnel.
N Bwy Line
It is quite possible to increase speeds in the Montague Street Tunnel. Northbound and southbound: Raise the clearing speed on the timers on the downgrade, or get rid of the timers altogether. Northbound: redesign the timers governing the approach to the Broadway/Nassau Street switch so they only act as timers when the switch is set for Nassau Street. Additionally, operating cars with AC propulsion or restored field shunting through the tunnel would allow trains to maintain speed on the upgrades (currently they huff and puff and wheeze into Court Street, for example).
David
At least the trains are moving, unlike if the bridge shuts down. Besides, I wouldn't put so much effort on speed when safety is the prime concern here.
N Bwy
I contend that the additional speed could be attained without compromising safety. However, there's no way for SubTalkers to prove it, and NYCT is not likely to do it, so the point is moot.
David
I contend that the additional speed could be attained without compromising safety.
Can that be done on da Bridge too?
Probably not on the downgrades, which are pretty steep. The timers are 25 MPH at best and get more stringent as one gets closer to the portal at either end, and they probably shouldn't be loosened to any great degree. On the upgrades, there are no speed restrictions imposed by the signal system, but the steep upgrade combined with a lack of field shunting or AC propulsion results in a slow go.
David
So why are trains allowed to go 50 mph in the 60th St. tunnel and only 25 mph in the Montague Tunnel? I realize as you approach the switches a slowdown is prudent, but why the timers on the downgrades?
If a runaway train is the fear, why not timers set for 40 mph on the downgrades?
"So why are trains allowed to 50 miles in the 60th Street Tunnel abd only 25 miles in the Montague Tunnel?" Maybe they want to be careful not to run over any rats. I just had to get that one in.
Actually, there's a real reason.
NYCT's underriver tubes have historically had 35 MPH grade timers on the downgrades. A number of years ago (circa early 1990s), NYCT studied the matter and found that in some, if not all, cases, there was no engineering or operational reason for the timers to be set for 35 MPH (if there was a reason for there to be timers at all). As a pilot, NYCT increased the timer clearing speed in a few tubes (60th Street and 14th Street come to mind). Then came Union Square, Williamsburg Bridge, and other stuff, and the mentality changed to "slow is safe." Thankfully (in my opinion) the increased speeds were left as they were, but unfortunately (again in my opinion) it doesn't seem that the program will be continued any time soon.
David
the mentality changed to "slow is safe."
I think I get the picture. If, God forbid, there's an accident somewhere at 40 mph, and the speed there was always 40, then it's nobody's fault. But if the speed is increased to 40 and then there's an accident, heads roll.
It's worse. If an accident occurs at 40 and the speed was always 40, the speed will no longer be anywhere near 40.
David
Just like the Willy-B accident in 1995, look at how much timers were introduced there after the accident. Should somethng like that happen, the speed will probably be cut in half to 20mph, possibly less.
HAHAHA :o)! Come on Fred, you know its the timers and the Nassau switchoff that makes the Montague so slow. Then you got the approaches into the stations that make them slow down there too. All of those timers are reallu unnecessary IMO, it should be placed at the Nassau switch and both ends of the rathole.
Just having a little fun. Both and David clued me in as to why, so I learned something new today. Besides, being three thousand miles away I'm not up to date like the rest of you.
I think the speed could be raised too and there should be timers only near the switchoff to the Nassau Line and the approaches at Court St[SB] and Whitehall St [NB].
Well AIM, if you had said that in the first place there wouldn't be any rumble. I happen to disdain the fact that the N has to traverse the bowels of Manhattan when it could get on the bridge and get to Brooklyn regions quicker. That was what he Sea Beach was for originally and should be again. It is as simple as that. Put some other damn train in the Rat hole and get mine out of it.
Uhhh...do you OWN the N train? I don't think so! So quit saying that like you own the blasted train CAUSE YOU DON'T!! You don't like the N going over Montague? THAT'S JUST TOO BAD!DEAL WITH IT! You don't even live in NYC anyway so why the f*** do you care!? Cut the BS already damnit!
Come on V train, he's just defending his line and he wants the N to get better treatment/respect that's all; and HE KNOWS he doesn't own the train! While the tunnel IS dingy, slow and full of rats, you're right we just gotta deal with it right now.
Defending his line? There's nothing to defend in the first place.
Fine so by your reasoning we can all make disparaging comments about the V train, not to mention that crappy bus which only gets to Flushing Avenue when its predecessor, the B40, got to Marcy.
And yes, I don't live in NYC either, so let's all make nasty remarks about me too...
But seriously, I don't think you can blame a guy for liking the N train, or any other train for that matter, to the extent Fred does. I don't think he's the only railfan who has a special line...
By the way V Train or B47 Bus or whatever the hell handle you're carrying at the present time, if you'll notice I never make a disparaging remark about your V Train or your B47 Bus, whatever the hell that is. But since you put me in this position, let me give you my opinion. Your V train wouldn't make a good scab on my Sea Beach's ass, either in tradition, looks, or popularity. There I said it.
B47 Bus, whatever the hell that is.
B40 joined to the B78 with a bit lopped off on Broadway. Or from your time, the #11 trolley extended along Ralph Avenue to Avenue U / Flatbush Avenue, but cut back from Williamsburg to Flushing Avenue.
Thank you British James. I didn't know that and appreciate any new info I can get. I can always count on you for some good knowledge about New York transportation as well as you respecting my opinion on things, even if some of them get a little carried away.
Who doesn't get carried away sometimes? I say this board would be a much more boring place without the people who get carried away!
I agree and people who have "hate" for others still like to each other's posts so then it meaans they are interested in what they say. You should have posted your post in the thread "The tone of Subtalk".
Come on, Fred. You know that you're not a bus fan, and you really didn't "appreciate" that info! When we were going from Coney Island to Bay Ridge last year to get egg creams, you almost had a heart attack when I suggested we take the B-64 bus, which would have taken us "door to door". So instead, we had to take the West End (because the Sea Beach wasn't at Stilwell Ave Station) all the way to 36th Street, and wait for a 4th Avenue "shuttle" train that ran every 15 minutes. We just barely got to Hinch's before they were ready to close up for the night!
>>> we had to take the West End (because the Sea Beach wasn't at Stilwell Ave Station) all the way to 36th Street, and wait for a 4th Avenue "shuttle" train that ran every 15 minutes <<<
That seems reasonable to me! :-)
Tom
Thanks Old Tom. For real railfans, it's the train or bust. Right?
Hey Fred...I think the bus is cool. I love to ride the bus, for the simple reason that you can really see the New York neighborhoods up close and personal. Sure, the trains are the real beauty, and there's no way a bus can compare to the speed and efficiency of a train, but a lot of times, if I'm not in a rush, I'll choose the bus, solely for the scenery.
That's right, a lot of buses have great routes. And in some cases it's better than a car, you don't have to worry about driving it and can look at the sides as much as you want, and you're high up above all the other vehicles.
The only proper buses though are AEC Routemasters - you can hop on and off the back when the bus has hit traffic and there's an upper deck. It also feels safer having a conductor on board. Guess what... the sodding Eurocrats are planning a directive to make them illegal as they discriminate against people in wheelchairs!
Then young sir Tony, I stand corrected---and next time I come to New York I will make it my business to ride the bus for a tour around New York Island. That will also make my friend Fishbowl 53 very happy as well, as he is a big bus fan, too. It won't make Busboy, or 47Bussy or Double Dribble Davey happy, though. Nothing I do will make them happy. Sorry for that? Think I should invite them for a drink next time I hit town?
Think I should invite them for a drink next time I hit town?
Only if you make them stick to lemonade, Fred... there's at least one in that crowd (maybe more) who is a wee bit underage :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon. I believed them all to be in their 40's or 50's. Perhaps I should go easier on the kids.
Aw, that's a shame. And Fred almost helped them get around an unjust law.
It's much more civilised in Italy (drink at 16, plus they completely don't give a damn anyway; ride a motor scooter at 14, no helmet, no licence)... and warmer too...
Portugal doesn't have a drinking age at all.
Also, there are places in the United States where you can drive a CAR at 14. Specifically, Alaska, Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas and both Dakotas. South Dakota actually lets 14-year olds get full licenses.
I think that a driving age is the most useless age restriction. You have to pass a damn test anyway, if people under a certain age really are never qualified to drive, then they would just fail a well designed test.
Also, there are places in the United States where you can drive a CAR at 14.
I prefer motorbikes... there's nothing quite like some of the lanes in Worcestershire flat out on a bike!
Motorcycles baby, that is the ticket. Of course, when I got married my wife put the kibbosh on that. She had a neighbor who turned into a vegetable after an accident and chewed me out one day when I showed up in my friend's Harley. Maybe I can talk her into letting me have a 125 or something small.
Yeah! Go for it! I suppose I should get a bike again - I really miss the fun of it all!
I'll always remember the first time I fell off - I was on the approaches to the really busy traffic circle in Solihull Town Centre, I braked and there were loose chippings on the road and ouch... somehow, nothing hit me (nor did I do myself anything more than a couple of bruises)!
I respectfully decline, as my prospective host doesn't seem to know how to get my name right even after agreeing to do so.
David
Me too, I love riding the bus but I like riding the subway as well so I'm universal 8-). I agree, you could see things on a bus you can't see on a train but the one thing a train will always over a bus have is a railfan window. But the train has speed and can give nice scenery, particularly from the bridges but from the els as well.
Like you,I'm much more of a train fan than a bus fan.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Fishbowl, what kind of a friend are you? You just let the cat out of the bag and exposed me for the bus hater I am. I did ride the bus on my trip to New York in October but I have never been a big bus fan. I did appreciate British James pointing those things out to me. At least I learned something, which is more I can say for some of the present occupants of Subtalk who couldn't pour piss out of a boot even if the directions were printed on the side.
Fred, I figured that on this board it wouldn't really matter if you're a "bus hater" or not. A lot of rail buffs hate buses and vice versa. Just like on the BusTalk board, there are guys who swear by express buses and wouldn't ride a subway if it stopped outside their window. I just happen to be one of the few who likes both modes of transportation (but I generally hate express buses).
On NewsChannel 4 at 11 last night, they had a story on the cessation of weekend express service.
They of course had their customary local idiot complainants, including one woman who said she had never ridden a subway (now she'll have to ride the scary subway!). Marty Markowitz (Brooklyn BP) was on saying how people will need cab rides and the like to get to the subway, forgetting that there are LOCAL buses.
The only plausible argument was that the disabled will be screwed because the subway is a nightmare for ADA compliance.
You're a better well-rounded person in transport than I am Marty. I do have a question, though. Does it seem to you that those on BusTalk who also post here are a little nastier than the rest of us? Seems that way to me. I've had a running feud with Busboy, B47 Bus and Double Dribble Davey for the past few days.
I don't know about the others, but that B47/V Train person definitely has a chip on her shoulder and is, for the most part, an angry person. If you recall, when I was brand new to this board, you and I got into a feud because I was unaware of your views and personality. However, B47/V Train is far from new to this board, she should be used to your and everybody else's "idiosynchracies" (sp?).
I'm glad you can agree with me on that point Marty. She seems to be angry at everyone and has decided to take me on for whatever reason she has. Well, there are always a few of those everywhere we look and maybe we should just shine her on and let her stew a little more.
According to her EVERYONE'S an idiot. God, even I am not that bad.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's why NYCT revived the B47 bus line, it used to be the southern section of today's B43. It's STILLLLLL ALIVE!
And the B43 used to be the southern section of today's B44.
Oh! and the B15 used to be the one running over the Manhattan Bridge from Hanson Place to Canal Street
and the B 82 used to be the B 5 and B 50 Kings Hwy, and the B-50 was the old McDonald Ave Street Car, which was once tthe B67 big deal, take this to bus talk
[McDonald-Vanderbilt] was once tthe B67
Incorrect. It was the #69 and trolleys didn't have the B prefix.
Actually, that is the B51 and it still runs today.
Dumb question - why ride the B51 bus with all that traffic around when you could just go to De Kalb Avenue and ride the Q train to Manhattan? Is the B51 some sort of contractual replacement for the 3-Cents Line or something?
The B51 is a political solution, not really an operational one.
In the early 1980s, NYCT discontinued route B15/Manhattan Bridge. Senior citizens and the disabled went to the local politicians, especially City Councilman Abraham Gerges (now a judge), who put pressure on NYCT(A) to restore the bus route. The new route, B51, is a shortened version of route B15. It isn't ridden by very many people.
And yes, there are faster ways to go between Downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan (involving the subway), and some of the routings are now at least partially accessible to those with disabilities and those who do not want to climb steps. DeKalb Avenue is getting elevators now, as is Atlantic Avenue, so even more ways will open up in the next few years to people with less than full mobility.
David
The B51 looks longer to me than the B15.
The line starts at Smith & Fulton Streets instead of Atlantic Terminal --the people complaining about the demise of the B15 were from Brooklyn -- but I think it meanders more than the B15 did. It's longer on the Manhattan end. I'd have to look at the records (if they're even available anymore) to see what the reported mileage on route B15 was.
Maybe this should be continued on BusTalk, if at all.
David
That was NOT the B51. The old B15 ran as a straight line from Hanson Place to Canal/Baxter. It ran only a few trips each day and was eliminated in the early 1980s.
The B51 was implemented in 1986, it takes a different route and runs more trips.
The resurrection of route number B47 HAHAHA!! I guess they missed having a 47 since that is the only borough to have the route # 47; ahh Brooklyn's so special people from other boroughs don't get offended! ;-)
I guess they missed having a 47 since that is the only borough to have the route # 47
What about the Q47?
I guess Triboro Coach routes don't count!
Hey Surf, if you can tell me what makes her tick I'd be delighted. Something is eating away at her. I'm not the first guy she's gone after but I'm number one on her hit list right about now.
Fred, at least she hasn't suggested in 2004 to extend the V Train from 6th Ave, run over the bridge when it reopens, down 4th Ave, make a 90 degree turn after 59th Street, and have that V enter the Sea Beach and run down to Coney Island.
Right now I'm running for cover, looking for a place to hide, so the rocks won't hit me.
Just Kidding Fred.......
GP 38, there are no rocks coming. Good post and maybe I should thank my lucky stars she hasn't come up with such a suggestion because the TA might buy it. Hell, a like a good laugh at my expense because it makes me human, so keep them coming if it will brighten my day. Have a good one.
I already did suggest that
>>>... if you can tell me what makes her tick <<<
Wouldn't waste my time, I have better things to do.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe she is a Hilliary Clinton Fan, THE MOST ADMIRED WOMEN IN AMERICA
I've got the perfect scenario for the Election of 2008. Your Hillary and my Condaleezza. And the outstanding Ms Rice will clean her clock.
In general,I'm not an angry person.All this anger you see from me goes to the idiocy of every person who rides the subway or bus who ask the most stupidest question's you'll ever hear and in the subway case,hold the doors or run when they hear a train like it's the last one of the day and think they're gonna be stranded without being able to get home till the next day.
And of course,post's referring about doing harm to the V train or any other train or bus or section of subway that's very important to tons of people. Perfect example,that person who posted about that he thinks the PATH should be eliminated.Is he insane or what the hell? Then he tells me that he has ridden the PATH during rush hours? yaright.There's a liar if I ever saw one. If he did ride PATH during rush hours he wouldn't have put up that post in the first place.
That kinda thing is what makes me mad. So to Andee who said that according to me everyone's an idiot.Now you and everyone here know's who I consider idiot's and get pissed off at.And since it's gonna continue no matter what,it seem's I'll never stop being angry.
God....Do you need help.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree with you 100% about how you feel about that person who posted that PATH should be eliminated. And I also deal with many stupid questions and actions from passengers day in and day out on the rails of New Jersey Transit. But I never let that stuff get to me. If I see a post here that I might disagree with or think is crazy, I'll just shake my head in dismay and maybe use sarcasm to make my point. Since my feud with Fred a year and a half ago, I have learned to control myself regarding calling people names.
And Fishbowl has also made a friend as well. We have railfanned twice together, had a blast and I look forward to doing more of it with my railfan pal.
I think you're both being a bit harsh - okay, eliminating PATH would indeed be a pretty dumb idea and it is not going to happen. The fact that it is not going to happen really brings this onto the level of kicking around fantasy ideas on the board - something I wholeheartedly approve of. Fantasy ideas may sometimes be dumb, but are fun nevertheless. The whole eliminate PATH business could therefore be interpreted as a bit of slightly crazed fun. If that is idiocy, I would like to announce to the entire board that I too am an idiot.
I enjoy fantasies just as much as the next guy, but within reason. Like mine about *extending* PATH to Rahway to keep the excess stupidity off of the NJ Transit trains. If you have read my past posts regarding the passengers from Elizabeth, you will know what I'm referring to.
Oh, and BTW, I would say that most railfans fantasize about adding NEW services, not eliminating existing ones!
I'm sure everyone has a few services they'd like to eliminate, stations they'd like to close etc... I've said before Covent Garden station in London is absolutely pointless. I'm also no big fan of a number of UK main line services (I'd advocate some quite major "alterations" to services in and out of London Paddington, especially after Princes' Risborough - Oxford returns.). One which should happen regardless of PR-Ox is that the Heathrow Express should be replaced by a Heathrow Local, the same price as any other train in London, leaving the fast lines and extortionate fares to trains from Wales and the West Country.
Chiltern Railways should get round to axing the two Sudbury stations as they only have three trains a day, which no-one uses as both stations are within five minutes walk of Piccadilly Line stations with somewhere in the region of 10tph IIRC. I'm very hesitant about ripping up lines, however, for reasons today's derailment on the Brighton Line (the UK one) demonstrated.
Chill down Bussy, you are making a jackass out of yourself. Many people who ride subways are tourists and it is hard to follow subway patterns when you're a visitor. Besides, there are many GO's that change routes and times and that make it harder for people to get a handle on the schedules. Besides, what makes you such an expert on things than you can bring someone else down? You like to dish out the crap but, boy oh boy, let someone give it to you back and you go airborne. That said I hope you and Busboy have a nice day and enjoy each other's company. You're two of a kind and deserve each other. Good luck.
Fred, while you are correct in that many subway riders are tourists, I assume that they make up only a small percentage of the daily ridership. What I can confirm is that I know many life long New Yorkers who ride the subways 5 days a week to and from work, and if their "usual train" makes one slight diversion, they have no idea what to do and they go into a frenzy. Or, if they go out after work and the're not by their "normal stop" when they're ready to go home, they are in complete chaos. Some people just don't have the initiative or the intellegence to learn how to get around. It's not exactly rocket science, but they treat it like it is.
Well we are railfans so we could find a alternative way to travel around diversions faster than those who do not. I don't understand why some people panic when a diversion occurs, all they have to do is look at the map or ask someone for directions that's all. Some people don't WANT to learn how to get around; they just want to get mad at the system.
I do know "non-railfans" who happen to have common sense, so they survive the diversions, or they learned that there are other subway stations in the system besides the one that stops near their office, and they get along very nicely in life. It's the other 7.5 million morons that make no attempt to learn anything. I assume that if those people drove automobiles, I'm sure they would learn alternate routes in case of traffic tie-ups. Why not apply that initiative to mass transit as well?
That's what I'm saying, a lot of people have no common sense when it comes to finding a alternative but you shouldn't call them morons. That's true, if they were driving they would HAVE to find one so they could very well plan a alternative for the buses & subways but many passengers are too lazy to do so when it comes to mass transit.
"I assume that if those people drove automobiles, I'm sure they would learn alternate routes in case of traffic tie-ups."
1. No, most don't. They just wait it out.
2. When a major road is blocked, the alternatives often have far lower capacity (city streets). So the alternatives aren't as good a solution as with the subways.
Well there is the natural order of things...
Trains
Trolleys in tunnels (or on the Willy B!)
other Trolleys
Motorbikes
Buses
Pedal Cycles
Trucks
--- the Pale ---
--- warning: the following are beyond the pale ---
Cars
How about feet?
what bus was that, I don t remember any bus, and don t include the JFK shuttle to the subway as a bus route
an he dragged me on the damn 4th ave for a losey egg cream in Bay Ridge, The one in the Swarma Place under the Brighton at Kings Hwy was so much better
Pay no mind to him Fishbowl. If Bob can't complain about something he just isn't a happy camper.
But nobody called it the "#11 Trolley." It was called the Ralph Avenue line.
I have a idea, combine the V with the N and run 2 no where trains to Brooklyn, Fred will get his train overe the Manny Bridge, and the V will go to Brooklyn
Good God folks, look who has just emerged from the Montague Tunnel? My good friend Bob.
Very, very timely Fred. Couldn't have done better myself even though I have the advantage of being one of the Brighton Boys.
Well then Q, disregard my earlier post. Since you gave me a kuddo, consider us even. I do NOT owe you one anymore. Sometimes I do come out with a good one, about three times a year.
Why the f@$% to I care? By that idiotic statement I can tell right off that the subway to you is just a mean of getting around. It has no emotional value whatsoever. Well num nuts, let me put some new colors in your paint box. Many of us, regardless of where we live, have a strong attachment to the New York Subway, and some of us have an even greater emotional attachment to a particular train from way back in our childhood. For your info, I used to sneak out of our neighborhood, ride to 42nd Street and take the Sea Beach so I could ride my train to my heart's content. Emotionally I own the Sea Beach, I use it as my handle, have it on my hats, on my shirts. If that bothers you just go ride your bus somewhere where you won't have to put up with my diatribes. You read my posts because they are interesting and controversial, and if you were honest with yourself you would admit it. Tell you what Busboy, stop reading my posts and put me in your kill file. I dare you. You won't===and you shoudn't.
Have a nice day.
I think some people here take things too seriously. Look at the near riot the suggestion to close the Astoria El almost caused. I can very well relate to someone having strong feelings towards a particular route. For me it was the T, QT, and QB services from Astoria to Coney Island - I actually hated the whole Christie street connection and what it did to my favorite lines. If I had my druthers Christie street would never have happened - I always felt the TA decimated the Broadway BMT in favor of 6th Avenue, not to mention depriving me of my one-seat ride to Coney Island (back in the days when I still wanted to go there). Now I am living a dream while the "W" lasts....
And I agree - the Sea Beach EXPRESS belongs on the bridge!!
See what I mean T? Some of these new breeders on Subtalk haven't a clue about how emotional one can get over a particular subway. Good to know you see my point. I hated it when the BMT went to letters via the IND and junked the numbers. It made the #4BMT a thing of the past. Fortunately it gave the Sea Beach my favorite letter N, so there was a trade off, sort of. Have a great week.
Well, I don't know, Fred, I've seen that VTrainB47 person call the V train "her train". I thought she was way out of line for jumping on you for calling the Sea Beach "your line", and those cracks about how you don't have a right to an opinion because you live in California are just unacceptable.
Hey, following THAT logic, maybe only people who live in the 5 boroughs should be allowed to post on SubTalk....oops...SIRT isn't tied into the rest of the system, people in Richmond County are outta luck, too. :)
Maybe they want to narrow Subtalk to their desired few. Then they can bore each other to death without an interference from J Train Tony, Sea Beach Fred, Brighton Express Bob, El Marko Feinman, etc, and all the rest of us who make this website a joy to be on.
Yeah, it would be pretty dead without The Bob and Fred Show.:)
Hey Tony, I couldn't figure her out myself. Perhaps she had an ax to grind and perhaps it was that time of the month. I don't know. I only know she really ripped into me and aided by her flunkies Davey boy and Busboy. Who knows? Maybe they all live together and had one big falling out which embittered them, so they decided to take it out on the first poor sucker who crossed their trail. Anyway, thanks for the support piasan and have yourself a great week.
My name is David: D-A-V-I-D. When referring to me, please use that name and only that name.
David (who doesn't know "V Train B47 Bus" or "Busboy," whoever that is, and who wants desperately to stay on-topic)
David
OK D A V I D!!!!!! What do you say that we put this pissing contest behind us and move on? If you can take my Sea Beach rantings we can get along ok. I will even allow you to vent your spleen on whatever topic you want. Just don't get personal again. Let's see if we can get along from now on.
If I get personal "again," it will be for the first time.
But I agree...let's move on.
Here's to an on-topic 2003 for all of us.
David
Hey Fred, I've had some run ins with her- I don't think it has anything to do with the fact she's a woman, or her menstrual cycle- she's always like that. She once said she knows ten times more about the subways then all of us put together, and when someone called her on it, she said we were just jealous because we knew it was true. She's just one of those people who gets super pissed off and screams if anyone says anything she doesn't agree with. She'll call you "stupid" or a "moron" pretty easily, too. I just avoid her completely..the only times I read her posts is when I need a good laugh.
Hey J-Train, thanks for the New Year's greeting. I sent you two of them but for some reason they didn't show up in my sent items box. So here I will wish you the very best New Year possible, and hope that my future E-Mails get through. You can E=Mail me anytime. Have a great day. As for V Train Bussy, well, at least now I know I'm not her only target.
I am still waiting for your phone call, like in Oct you said you would call next, Well Happy New years to Linda and Cristine
I will call as soon as I get off this website. A promise. You know for some reason my posts have not gotten to you. I noticed on my sent items that three of my posts wishing you a Merry Christmas did not get through. I don't know why.
I killfiled all Republican Ex School Teachers from Calif
[...those cracks about how you don't have a right to an opinion because you live in California are just unacceptable.]
Of course a Californian can and may have opinions about New York subway service. However, that Californian's opinions are neither THE SOLE BASIS nor a basis at all for routing and other decisions about New York subway service. Period.
Think about it - should New Yorkers start deciding how to run California?
No one said it should be the sole basis for decision making Busboy. I would suggest you stick to riding the busses and leave subway matters to J Train, Flatbush 41, Kook-D and the rest of my buddies who know which end of the stick is up. You must read ALL of my post, not just part of it and don't put any meaning into it except what it says. That said I hope you and your gal Bussy 47 V Train, or whatever she is going by this New Year, have a nice day.
[No one said it should be the sole basis for decision making Busboy.]
1. No one said it DIRECTLY. Indirectly, it was all there.
2. The message to which you responded was posted by Gotham Bus Co. (that is, me). Please don't give Busboy credit for my posts.
As far as I was concerned you were Busboy; I gave you a different handle. From now on, though, you are Gotham Bus Co. I just hope you understand my love for the Sea Beach. I am an eccentric in that regard. If I had the power to do so I would make the change I want, but since I cannot I can do only two things. Hope for better things and vent.
Look at the near riot the suggestion to close the Astoria El almost caused.
I actually hated the whole Christie street connection and what it did to my favorite lines. If I had my druthers Christie street would never have happened - I always felt the TA decimated the Broadway BMT
Hmmm... welcome to the "Tear down the Chrystie Street Connector" thread!
IMHO the whole 6th Avenue express and Chrystie Street as a 4 track line with flying junctions was a waste of the City's money. Yes, Broadway needed to be put onto the South Side, but the North Side tracks could have been sent up 2nd Avenue as a 2-track line (probably to at least 60th St) with the amount of money wasted on a less necessary project.
(In all seriousness "tearing it down" would be a mistake and for that matter a waste of money and NO I AM NOT SERIOUS, but it makes a good thread title.)
perhaps with our 20-20 hindsight we can see that Chrystie as built and implemented was not a good bet. But remember, the real glitch most of the years since it opened was the Manh. Br. WHICH would have failed identically without regard to where the tracks connect. OF COURSE the Second Av Line should have been built. But, we live in a country dominated by crooked pols and their equally crooked paymasters who DO NOT labor for the public good. A couple fewer B-2 bombers and the whole SAS four tracks could have been built in 60's dollars, five or six fewer in post 70's dollars. 'Course five fewer B-2's and he USSR would not have crumbled right? This country could have bult the SAS in just money saved in better balance of payments/value of US dollar if we had a REAL energy savings regime. But, hey, this is all idealistic theory, SUV's are reality and besides asking Americans to reduce waste IS Communist, right?
Think of the money wasted because of Septemeber 11, 2001 and there's the 2nd Ave Subway, and then some.
Let's not forget that Grand St, of the Chrystie St line, is, technically, a station of the SAS.
No, it isn't. I talked to the project manager of the East Side Access Project, a former SubTalker, and he told me that the Grand Street station is NOT designed to be incorporated into the Second Avenue Subway, contrary to urban legend.
David
Could have fooled me. Chrystie St turns into 2nd Ave as it passes Houston St.
"he told me that the Grand Street station is NOT designed to be incorporated into the Second Avenue Subway, contrary to urban legend."
The official MTA info says maybe, maybe not. See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_stations.htm
There are two options. One involves Grand St.
I don't know why one would say "no" to using Grand St. The platforms are built, and it's right on the line, with a track connection to the rest of the subway. {The only other would be at 63rd I believe.}
"I don't know why one would say "no" to using Grand St."
Save money by using the Nassau St line from Delaney southward instead of building a new line for that distance.
a) It says Grand Street. It doesn't say Grand AND WHERE.
b) Even if the station were to be at Grand and Chrystie Streets, that doesn't mean that the existing structure would be used in any way.
The urban legend indicates that the walls of the platforms of the Grand Street station are false -- that the platforms are really islands (like Lexington Avenue-63rd Street, which really IS that way). The project manager debunked that legend when I asked him about it.
David
That legend goes back a long way ... I recall seeing old ERA bulletins that mentioned it. I am sure even I have documented it that way in historical articles I have created for this site, based on what I have read.
I always thought the 2nd Ave tunnels under the Confucious houses split at the south end to line up with a cross-the-platform stop at the existing Grand Street station. Is this also legend?
--Mark
The section under Confucius Plaza is pretty much just that -- under the buildings, from Canal Street to Pell Street. It was built just before the buildings went up (smart idea, not that anything came of it). I haven't been in it, but I don't think it's long enough to have a split.
David
I've been in those tunnels many times. The south end does split to eventually approach Grand St.
--Mark
I always thought the 2nd Ave tunnels under the Confucious houses split at the south end to line up with a cross-the-platform stop at the existing Grand Street station. Is this also legend?
Mark, you've been down there... you should know! I don't remember the details from your video of that segment... but I presume that you would be able to tell if they were heading apart at the south end... yes/no?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The tunnels under the Confucious houses definitely split on the south end. That I am sure of. You can also see that on my video.
The split was supposed to line these tunnels up for a stop at Grand Street, which would be converted to a 4 track 2 island-platform station. There would be a cross-the-platform transfer between today's 6th Avenue trains and the Second Avenue line. *Supposedly* the walls of the Grand St station were supposed to be false walls, which is what David said is a legend. I find that very surprising.
--Mark
"The tunnels under the Confucious houses definitely split on the south end. That I am sure of. You can also see that on my video.
The split was supposed to line these tunnels up for a stop at Grand Street"
I don't get it. Confucious Houses are south of Grand St. by quite a few blocks. How would a split south of there be relevant to Grand St?
After I entered that post, I realized that the tunnel end may not have been south! It's hard to tell once you're in the tunnel which direction you're facing. The only way in was through an emergency exit near the Manhattan Bridge, and the corridor was not straight ...
--Mark
"(like Lexington Avenue-63rd Street, which really IS that way). "
If I have it right, when the first operating segment of the SAS opens, it will function much like Queensborough Plaza does - a bilevel station with cross-platform transfers for each direction.
"The urban legend indicates that the walls of the platforms of the Grand Street station are false"
OK fine, I'll believe your contact.
However, there is more detail on the MTA web site. It does say that the eastern option goes down Christie St with a stop at Grand St. So if that alignment is chosen, the SAS tracks would either have to flank the B/D tracks on either side (as the urban legend would have it) or else run underneath the B/D, making for a very unusual configuration if easy transfers are allowed on all directions (and not just north to north and south to south).
Perhaps what your contact means is that nothing is decided or built yet. Or perhaps the MTA web site info does not reflect current thinking.
Nope...he told me there is no provision in the shell of the Grand Street station for expansion to four tracks for Second Avenue service. He was quite definite about it. I seem to recall seeing something a while back about the current incarnation of the Second Avenue Subway having its own Grand/Chrystie station with a pedestrian connection to the existing one -- unfortunately, I don't think I have anything in writing here at home.
David
Well, then, unless he has definitive engineering drawings to corroborate his assertions, we'll just have to presume he is wrong. There is a great deal of official evidence to which suggests he is wrong.
And since he is referenced only as an unnamed source who "used to be a poster", I would say your entire line of reasoning is suspect.
On slashdot, you might even be accused of being a troll.
Happy New Year.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I don't know what "slashdot" is, but no matter. As I previously stated, the person I talked to is the NYCT project manager for Manhattan East Side Access. What he doesn't know about the Second Avenue Subway's past, present, and (we hope) future doesn't exist.
David
That is so stange. Can he explain the split of the tunnels under Confucious houses then as they near Grand Street? Maybe for it's own station with an island platform?
--Mark
I may just have to talk to him. I've got the Phase I report for Route 132-C (Second Avenue and Water Street Subway) from June 1973. Page III-3 has the following:
4. GRAND STREET STATION
It is recommended that the existing mezzanine at Grand Street Station be enlarged, and the two side platforms be enlarged and converted to two island platforms. The existing structure and framing of Grand Street Station was designed to facilitate the platform widening. Additional entrances to this station are planned on Grand Street.
Perhaps he was trying to tell me that there's nothing behind the walls of the platforms (as there is at Lexington Avenue-63rd Street, and as people seem to believe there is at Grand Street), but he wasn't saying that the station COULDN'T be converted to island platforms.
As to the split in the tracks on the existing section of the Second Avenue Subway in Chinatown, it seems to be to accommodate an island platform at the planned Chatham Square station. Confucius Plaza (under which this section is located) is several blocks south of Grand Street.
David
The existing structure and framing of Grand Street Station was designed to facilitate the platform widening.
I think I can understand how the urban legend was born now, having read this statement.
Perhaps he was trying to tell me that there's nothing behind the walls of the platforms (as there is at Lexington Avenue-63rd Street, and as people seem to believe there is at Grand Street), but he wasn't saying that the station COULDN'T be converted to island platforms.
Heh, now we get into a discussion of "nothing" ... solid rock, open space, etc.
As to the split in the tracks on the existing section of the Second Avenue Subway in Chinatown, it seems to be to accommodate an island platform at the planned Chatham Square station. Confucius Plaza (under which this section is located) is several blocks south of Grand Street.
Perhaps so. Once I went into these tunnels, you really couldn't tell which tunnel was uptown or downtown!
--Mark
LOL, I thought the Chrystie Street connector was Torn Down with the East River and the Astoria El almost a year ago?
Seriously though, you are right. Although, what they did with the Chrystie connection around Grand Street would have been necessary if they were to connect it to a SAS anyway, so it might as well have connected to 6th Ave also. You are right about the 6th Ave express tracks though. They were an engineering nightmare, and the amount of money that was spent on that could very well have gotten a good portion of the SAS built. The map may look much different than it does today because if a SAS was to be built at that time, I believe they were planning to connect the Pelham, Dyre, and north of E180 Street on the White Plains Line to it, thus making that part of the B division, as opposed to the IRT. The IRT lines would have seemingly only have gone to E180th on the old West Farms portion of the Line, and Woodlawn on the Jerome el, for better of for worse.
The Chrystie street connection looks bad now, but had it not been built, all trains from Brooklyn would be forced to use the Nassau Street loop. At least Chrystie leaves a half-closed Manhattan Bridge with a choice between two important Midtown lines.
"The Chrystie street connection looks bad now, but had it not been built, all trains from Brooklyn would be forced to use the Nassau Street loop."
The original posting in this thread was to spend the money instead on running the trains up 2nd Ave at least to 60th St.
Second Avenue wouldn't be an important Midtown line. the Eastern end of the Midtown CBD is on Third Avenue.
And building a Second Avenue line only to 60th Street would be the exact opposite of what needs to be done! Which is above 60th Street first.
"You are right about the 6th Ave express tracks though. They were an engineering nightmare, and the amount of money that was spent on that could very well have gotten a good portion of the SAS built."
I would have rather seen the money used for extending the Path to 57th Street and Grand Central Station.
Also, the Second Avenue could have became the Second Queens Line.. (what is now the F line)..
Now you pretty much have duplicate services in Manhattan.
N Broadway Line
Yeah, the title does sound "exciting". Ok seriously, the Chrystie St project would be a success in the future but they should of found a way to keep the Nassau loop intact instead of destroying it.
"they should of found a way to keep the Nassau loop intact instead of destroying it."
The Nassau Loop was cute from a railfan point of view, but what did it really gain riders realtive to the current configuration? Riders from Chambers got a slightly faster trip to Dekalb in the PM rush hour, that's all.
Yes, Broadway needed to be put onto the South Side, but the North Side tracks could have been sent up 2nd Avenue as a 2-track line (probably to at least 60th St) with the amount of money wasted on a less necessary project.
That was the original plan for the Chrystie St. line, from 1929. The connection to 6th Ave was a 1950's compromise when the future of the 2nd Ave project was in doubt. Something had to be done to alleviate the congestion the old Manhattan Bridge configuration caused. Despite our nostalgic wants and desires, the south side connection to Nassau St. was already useless by 1967, and is even more so today. I love the Manhattan Bridge section of the Chrystie St. connection. It serves a valuable function and increases both quantity and quality of service over the old setup. It's the Williamsburgh Brodge connection which is a colossal waste of money.
no,it's not....and you should know better,being an Eastern division rider......
Sea Beach Fred owns trackage rights to the entire line. It is his train regardless where he chooses to live.
Some guy named Bob owns the Brighton line.
--Mark
Oh Mark, oh Mark. You just made yourself an El Marko man for that wild and nasty lady. She really has it in for me and now that my good buddy Mark has stepped into the fray to defend his friend---WATCH OUT. You are probably next. But thanks for the kind words. Since are railfan buddies you know where I am coming from as a Sea Beach eccentric. Too bad they don't love their trains as we do.
I know *exactly* where you're coming from, Fred. I would have laid claim to the Brighton myself, but, well ... Bob beat me to it and I respect my elders :)
--Mark
Bob would love to hear that. He just turned 60 and that is why he is probably avoiding Subtalk. He figures we will all be on his case.
He only claimed the Brighton Express - you could have the local!
Another Brighon line person, cool! The Brighton express, home of the express with NO timers and one of the most consistent lines of the whole system.
Gee thanks Mark, and I tried at the Greenburgs Train show here in Va this past weekend to get your videos a pitch
Here is the Proff!!
Ok V47 Bussy, Busboy and David, what do you think of that? Need any more proof than the ones supplied by my friends El Marko and Mr T Broadway? You can see it for yourself. The Sea Beach is mine.
It's a doctored photograph of a worthless share of stock. It proves nothing.
It is, however, humorous. Satisfied?
David
Hey, if doctored photographs of worthless stock shares are good enough for Enron and Worldcom, they're good enough for us. Hey, have we just discovered a solution to the MTA's deficit? :)
--Mark
Heck - some BMT / BRT securities are probably worth MORE on eBay than Enron or Worldcom are worth on the open market ;-)
Attaboy El Marko, keep them coming. At least we are honest people, not like those filthy Enron and Worldcom bums who took their investors for a real one way ride.
and who backed Bush and the Republicans, and now want to throw pout enviroement issues
Calm down V Train B47 Bus! Look there is no need to throw as insults around each other. Fred love his N just like you love the V. Fred is try to say that he wishes MannyB Subway goes the same as it was back in the 80s. Just calm down and relax. I know ur upseting because the way how many subway rider complained about the V. Its okay! This is how society is and works. Everyone has thing to complain simply because they want attention and simply because they are bored. I complain about how subway run sometime. But, I still love the MTA subway. Look, I love V train too. And its okay that others doesn't. Just because they still haven't get use to the new subway. Put it this way, everyone hated the new MannyB service W Q at the first day. After 6 months. everyone started to love it. We all borned to like/dislike things. All us have our own style that is differ from others. Fred is a good person and I know you are a good person too. All of us here are a good person. So, Relax and enjoy the fun here. IT New Year.
>>> I happen to disdain the fact that the N has to traverse the bowels of Manhattan when it could get on the bridge and get to Brooklyn regions quicker. <<<
I don't know, Fred. It seems to me the Sea Beach is like a gopher or goundhog, popping out of its underground burrow every so often, then ducking back in again. Maybe the tunnel is its natural habitat. :-)
Tom
Gee Old Tom, please, don't say that. It might give the TA a real idea for a change---and a bad one. It might keep my train in that rathole permanently. Oh, dear Lord, don't let that happen.
At least the "N" had somewhere to go, unlike the B/D lines..
N Broadway Lines
Yes, true, but only if the N could go somewhere else, like the Manhattan Bridge and to Coney Island. Maybe in 2004.
[That was what the Sea Beach was for originally and should be again. It is as simple as that.]
In other words, routing decisions should be based SOLELY on the nostalgic sentiments of one ex-New Yorker, rather than the travel patterns of CURRENT riders and operational constraints imposed by outside construction projects.
Ummm.... No.
- - - - -
[Put some other damn train in the Rat hole and get mine out of it.]
I could argue that the Queens Blvd Line and the routes that use it are "mine" because I use them regularly; however, they also "belong" to several hundred thousand other people for the same reason.
Since you no longer live in New York, you no longer use the Sea Beach, so it's no longer "your" line. The Sea Beach "belongs" to its current users.
I think you've been riding too many buses, might have even got clonked by one. Emotionally the Sea Beach is my train, always has been and always will be----and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it but keep fulminating while riding your Gotham Bus.
Hey, it's "his" line as much as anyone's....he "loves" it, he's not saying that he "owns" it.
But he doesn't use it, so when NYCT devises a service plan, his opinion of how the line should run isn't terribly relevant. Should the subway route structure be designed to best meet the needs of its users or to best meet the needs of someone in California?
It should be designed to meet my needs, of course. They should have to clear it with me. Well, you know that is ridiculous but it does give me a chance to vent a little. At least most Subtalkers have me figured out and know the emotional attachment I place on "my" train. At any rate, if I keep it up someone in the TA might take pity on the Sea Beach and get it elevated back on the Manny B. Can you put in a good word for me?
#4 Sea Beach Fred: Your posts are precious.
My posts are not precious to some of those other characters on board. They have no sense of humor and act like know-it-alls. Of course, I found out one is a woman and you know how some of those are. Watch the explosion now.
Here's something to cheer you up:
To me, that hits home - the R-32s as delivered on the route I associate them with to this day.
Sorry but its true, compared to all the other tunnels, the Montague rathole is the slowest in the whole system. The speeds ARE slow for a tunnel, all the turns btw Dekalb & Canal require slowdowns and all the timers only negate good speed and David explained it pretty well in his post(425766). See, you admitted it was horribly slow and I've seen trains go as fast on the bridge as in the tunnel, I've seen trains on the bridge go 25mph, and the last time I rode the R through the tunnel a while back it went only 26mph!
So what? That's not what's important.What's important is that it's there with station's for people who live or work in the area of each station.Would you have that the tunnel not be there at all and inconvience hundred's of people? Who cares how fast the train's go through Montague,I know I don't.
We know it moves people, I'm not denouncing that and if the tunnel wasn't there it would inconvience thousands, not hundreds. We're giving our opinions on the tunnel's condition and we think its a nasty looking, dingy, slow, timer filled tunnel.
Maybe we should salvage the Astoria El from the bottom of the East River as that was a miserable failure at filling it in and use it to fill in the Montague Street Tunnel ;-)
(I was going to say see the "Tear down the East River" thread in the archives, but I can't seem to find it!)
You don't care? Have you ever considered the fact that there might be a few of us who do't care what you think as much as you don't seem to care what I think. Think about that if you can think.
If your talking about the montague tunnel.. it is desperatly slow.. (slower than anything going to and from Bklyn, and that connection with the M line is the main reason. there's also a curve right from Whitehall Street) plus it leads to a lot of stations that are close together.. Besides all the curves you have to endure getting to these stations.
On the other hand, the Bridge is a slower ride, but it doesn't stop.. and that alone is a BIG time savings...
N Bwy Line
"If your talking about the montague tunnel.. it is desperatly slow"
I am, and my original post demonstrates that speeds while moving are higher than on the bridge. It takes MORE TIME than the bridge route because the distance is longer and there are 5 stops. But SPEEDS while moving are higher in the tunnel.
Good! You take the tunnel and I'll take the bridge. Who the hell are you kidding? If my Sea Beach takes the bridge and avoids the Montague rat hole it will save at least ten minutes of time, see some real fine scenery and get to Brooklyn quicker. If you like the tunnel so much use it and see like I have the number of rats that scurry across the tracks and along the sides. A real disgusting site and no place for my Sea Beach; your train maybe but not mine.
So the Montague Street Tunnel should be sealed up (per "Sea Beach Fred" in another part of this thread) because somebody in California, who hasn't lived here in almost 50 years, prefers using the Manhattan Bridge whenever he happens to be in New York City? What about the 14,249 riders who used the Whitehall Street station on a typical weekday in 2001, or the 6,712 who used Rector Street, or the 18,993 who used Cortlandt Street (prior to the destruction of the World Trade Center), or the 8,927 who used City Hall? Many of these riders come from southern Brooklyn...should they get out at DeKalb Avenue and walk on water? Should they transfer at Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street to already-full IRT trains? Should they move to California?
Well???
David
Ya know,I questioned him about this already and its obvious he wont stop.I wish he'd cut the crap already.He lives thousands of miles away so he doesn't have a clue as to what the hell goes on over here, no clue about the condition of the Montague Tunnel....no clue of anything PERIOD!For pete's sake,a grown adult acting like a 5 year old,C'mon give me a break.It's pathetic.
If you think it is pathetic, stop reading my posts dodo bird. I happen to be a real fan of my train and am pissed off as to what has happened to it, and neither you or David or anyone else will get me to lay off. And, may I remind you, there are many of us to live out of state that have a strong emotional attachment to the New York Subway for more years than you've been on this earth. So you have two choices, actually three. One, stop reading my posts if they bother you so much; two, read them and grin and bear it, or three, take the bus B47 Mr. Bus.
So you have two choices, actually three.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
or three, take the bus B47 Mr. Bus.
Pssst! Fred, she's Ms. Bus!
OOooooooooooopppppppppppppssssssssss! Thanks again British James for coming to the rescue. I might have known it was a member of the fair sex. I wonder if she was related to BS or BX55 of three years ago. I had a real go-round with that one. Well, better late than never. Thanks again.
BX55 really pissed a lot of people off by being named after the bus that replaced the Third Avenue El!
Hey Pig, she pissed off a lot of people for more reasons than that. I seem to have my problems with women on Subtalk. Strange, since I happen to be very fond of women and enjoy their company. Oh well, as they say overseas, let's head for Egypt and see if the Pyramids are still standing. Have a great week and good to hear from you again.
I happen to be very fond of women and enjoy their company.
Who isn't?
let's head for Egypt and see if the Pyramids are still standing.
My theory is they were designed to be the stanchions of an El station, then they realised the train hadn't been invented so they only built three.
About those riders? Let them take the R and then they can enjoy Whitehall, Rector, City Hall, etc, to their heart's content. And you can send another train to your Montague hangout to enjoy themselves as well. But keep my train out of that place. It's been there long enough. As for your suggestion of moving to California, not a bad idea. However, we can't all be lucky enough to live in this paradise.
"Sea Beach Fred"'s original suggestion was to seal up the Montague Street Tunnel. With that done, there would be NO R trains or any other trains coming from southern Brooklyn and serving lower Broadway stations, or Nassau/Centre Street stations for that matter.
I'm not saying conclusively that the N should be consigned to the Montague Street Tunnel forever, but to say the tunnel should be abandoned is patently ridiculous.
David
David, I think Fred was being sarcastic but then again, I really don't know what he's thinking so he would have to answer that for himself. Come on, I'm sure he knows that you can't seal up a tunnel just b/c of the rats and filth and is greeted with timers; it would cause major disruption to the M and R [while it does have these contents I'm not agreeing on sealing the tunnel]. The bottom line is he doesn't want his N train running in the rathole.
Thanks Flatbush 41. I take it Davey has no sense of humor and cannot see the subtleties behind our posts. Thanks for setting him straight. I think he gets it now. Well, maybe he does.
No problem. Well, I didn't really "set him straight" but I think he gets that it was just for humor and I just explained that he shouldn't take some comments too seriously.
I get it, and I got it when the statement was first made. I just don't appreciate it. The statement was irresponsible whether made tongue-in-cheek or in grave seriousness.
David
Get a life will you? There's a big rain cloud hanging over your face and it's causing a pall all over Subtalk. I don't know how long you have been online here but we have learned to laugh at ourselves and each other a little. You are in need of a little injection of laugh juice and probably a wee bit more bran in your diet. Lighten up.
1) I have a life.
2) I hate wasting time. Reading off-topic, "folksy" posts that say N-O-T-H-I-N-G is a collosal waste of my time, as is reading (essentially) the same post over and over and over again.
3. I've been here longer than "Sea Beach Fred" and most other current SubTalkers.
4. My sense of humor would put most other peoples' to shame -- those here who know me know this. As for my diet, it's fine.
Let's stick to transit subjects (without being Johnny One-Note) and stay away from personal attacks, shall we?
David
Personal attacks? What the hell do you call what you've been sending down the pike to me? As for a sense of humor, you could give Castro a run for his money. I see no humor at all but rather a bitter and nasty person who has some kind of ax to grind. Tell you what, don't read my posts for a month and see if that changes your disposition. If it does, then you might more of a point than the one sticking out of your head at the moment. If it doesn't, which I don't think it will, well, that's how the mop flops and you have a real problem.
Of course to seal up the Montague rat hole is ridiculous and it is ridiculous to me that you didn't see that I was saying that tongue-in-cheek. The fact is, though, I don't like the place and want my train out of it. Simple as that. Send your train there David and enjoy yourself.
[The fact is, though, I don't like the place and want my train out of it.]
Why is the N "your" train and nobody else's? Don't CURRENT riders' travel needs get any consideration? Or must all service decisions be based on what one Californian did before most of us were born?
The fact is that Sea Beach trains use Montague Street, and will continue to do so until NYCT decides otherwise. If that's causing you to suffer some provable economic loss, then sue NYCT to recover that loss. Otherwise, DEAL WITH IT.
There, I said it.
Congrats, you said it. Now do you feel better. How come it's all you bus guys that bitch at my calling the Sea Beach my train? You and your blood brother Bus 47, or whatever he calls himself, should go for a nice ride on a BUS and chill out. You aren't making a dent in my determination to keep this up until MY TRAIN is back on the bridge. Capice?
"You aren't making a dent in my determination to keep this up until MY TRAIN is back on the bridge. Capice?"
Have you written to the MTA yet explaining why it's really important for the Sea Beach to return to the bridge?
One letter to the MTA is a lot less fun than 100 postings on Subtalk, but it has more influence.
As one who used to answer letters to NYCT for a living, I can say that nobody at MTA or NYCT is going to care what a Californian thinks about NYCT's subway service patterns, unless that Californian happens to be a consultant hired by MTA or NYCT to aid in developing new service patterns -- and such a person would not be writing to NYCT or MTA in general; he or she would be dealing with a specific Project Manager.
David
Do you think hire this wise old sage to show them the right way? If so, I can come aboard for a small fee to give my expertise. I can do it in person or here online. Isn't this all a lot of fun?
They'd probably want someone with an engineering background, most likely in signal engineering.
David
Well then, how about a comedian to provide some light moments? Can I use you as a reference?
I'm here for the fun. So enjoy it with me.
I could rant and rave on how my line (Brighton) is far superior than Fred's Sea Beach, but I at least hope that his Sea Beach will be back in 2004 where it rightfully belongs, express from 59th Street, over the bridge (sharing the tracks with my Q), and express to 34th Street, heading to Astoria.
Kook-D, may I tip my cap to you? I appreciate your support and understanding about how the Sea Beach is important to me, despite the fact that I'm 3000 miles away and can't do much to change things. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for 2004 and maybe if enough of us think as we do the TA will get religion and put the N back on the bridge and make it an express again. Of course, Davey, Busboy, and 47Bussy will probably do all they can to throw a monkey wrench into the act.
You sure can Fred, as long as come back to NYC and ride the Q diamond express train to the beach BEFORE you hop back to your line. It sure is the next best thing to riding the world famous Cyclone.
I will also ride the Brighton. I always do. In fact, it is my second favorite line. Fact is when I was a kid my favorite station in the whole system was Prospect Park on the then #1 Brighton Express. It took me to Ebbets Field to see my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers. You have a deal.
I promise to do absolutely nothing to prevent Sea Beach trains from running via the Manhattan Bridge when full service over the bridge is restored. Happy?
David
Yes David I am happy====and it is David from now on. Just hope you now realize what the Sea Beach means to me. My railfan buddies have adjusted the past few years to my rantings and they just take it now with a grain of salt.
I agree. Hey my home line is the Brighton as well and yes, I too along with you could talk and rave about the Brighton but as I said before, the Sea Beach (N) should go back to the bridge run express in Manhattan come 2004 hopefully and run side by side with "our" Brighton line again.
Tell the riders that like the tunnel, they should try the bridge for a change of pace. In my own experience it is faster than the tunnel and a lot more fun.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Jeff, they know that all too well. But for some reason the Busboy, Double Dribble David, and B47Bussy like the tunnel, or at least think I should like it and stop complaining. Maybe they know more than they're letting on. Could they actually be from the Montague and are in disguise as Subtalkers? HHHHmmmmmmmmm!!!!!
That could be a possibility. It sounds like they're from Bus Talk given the handles. Speaking of Bus Talk, I posted one message on Bus Talk today.
#3 West End Jeff
Speaking of Bus Talk, I posted one message on Bus Talk today.
I don't know how you find the time!
It's easy. I just had to go onto "Bus Talk" and I'm there in a jiffy.
#3 West End Jeff
I have no great love for the Montague Street Tunnel.
I don't care what "#4 Sea Beach Fred" thinks about it, or what anybody else thinks about it. The Montague Street Tunnel is here, it's needed, and (let's hope) it's not going anywhere.
Again: "#4 Sea Beach Fred" is entitled to his opinion, as is everyone else, on Subtalk or otherwise. I'm just tired of reading the same comments day after day after day, and apparently I'm not the only one.
And my handle is "David" -- just "David." No "Double Dribble," and no anything else (since David Pirmann, David J. Greenberger, David Cole, and any other Davids on the board don't seem to be involved here, I'm assuming I'm the "David" who is a subject of the diatribe). I deal with "#4 Sea Beach Fred" in a respectful manner, free of invective and name-calling, and I ask no less of him or anybody else toward me.
David
OK David. If you read my previous post, as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed. I just don't happen to like the Montague rat hole and like it even less because my Sea Beach is in it. The hole in needed but it would sure be great if some of the other lines traversed there and not the N. I'm optimistically waiting until 2004 unless the TA throws me another curve.
That's why the M and R lines should use the Tunnel, it stands for Montague Rats.
Good one Kool=D. Sorry I didn't come up with that myself. Keep them coming. This is getting to be real fun.
That is a good one Kool-D. I probably would never have though of it.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree, in fact I rode the Q today we passed a W in Manhattan and when I reached Brooklyn at Dekalb, we caught up to the W AHEAD of the one I saw so it really saves about 10 minutes.
"I agree, in fact I rode the Q today we passed a W in Manhattan and when I reached Brooklyn at Dekalb, we caught up to the W AHEAD of the one I saw so it really saves about 10 minutes."
NYCT published schedules say 6 minutes. If you saved 10 minutes you were just lucky.
AIM: The point is that it does save time and the scenery is better. That is part of my argument. Hopefully the Sea Beach will eventually get back on the bridge where it belongs and I will have to find something else to rant about.
Tell it to the Bus and Davey. They seem to have a hard time understanding what I mean. I suppose to them a person living in California has no business airing their opinions. As we say out here, tough tacos! I will continue to air them. I only hope B47 has as much attachment to his bus as I do to the Sea Beach. Everyone who has gotten to know me personally understands that.
Some things never change like you and V Train arguing constantly about your line :o). Ok to get back on topic, you have every right to talk about your line just as much as anyone else can about theirs. I know what you're saying, you just want your line to have more respect and get back to the glory it once had, no problem.
I never said "Sea Beach Fred" has no right to an opinion. Of course he does, and he has every right to express it. HOWEVER:
1) There is no reason in the world that NYCT should take his opinion into account when designing service plans. Service plans are designed for people living in the area where the system operates, not for those living an entire country away.
2) Reading the same bleatings over and over again is getting tiresome, as "V Train etc." has said. (And no, I don't read every post.) Something new every once in a while would be greatly appreciated (and I hope SBF doesn't take this personally -- I don't know him and have no opinion of him, positive or negative, as an individual).
David
Well David, when you get to know me you will just love me. I started out with a number of people on my case and after we got acquainted they became railfan buddies of mine. Does Brighton Express Bob, Fishbowl 53, Steve 8THAVEXP, and Mark Feinman sound familiar to you. We had some earlier differences but I now count them as cherished colleagues and two of them I consider close friends.
On a mph basis it is faster but overall, it is NOT! We go on the basis of minutes saved and the bridge saves more than 6 minutes, especially when the N and R goes btw Canal St and City hall, that takes like 2-3 minutes alone then you have all the timers in the Montague rathole.
The published schedule says the bridge saves 6 minutes. My point is not that the tunnel is a quicker way to get from Dekalb to Canal (of course it isn't) but that you are actually moving faster in the tunnel. It's a longer distance, and you have 5 extra stops, so the bridge is 6 minutes less time.
What is this mathamagician stuff?
I've made a few weekend trips from astoria to park slope lately here's how they went:
W to 42nd, cross the platform for the Q...
Q to dekalb, where a W or R is just pulling in... in the cases where it was a W, it was NOT the w i was originally on, it was the one ahead of it...
the express/bridge is faster by a good 5-10 minutes on a longer haul, when your timing is right...
Yes, same thing happened yesterday when I rode the Q from 34 St to Brooklyn. Ok, W comes in and leaves 34 St; a few minutes later my Q comes, bypasses it by 14 St/Union Sq or 8 St stops and leaves Canal takes a couple minutes over the bridge, arrives at Dekalb Av and we catch up to the W AHEAD of the one I saw in Manhattan so it would have saved 8-10 minutes.
"the express/bridge is faster by a good 5-10 minutes on a longer haul, when your timing is right..."
Your count is from 34th to Dekalb. There you are correct; the Q is 10 minutes faster than the R. That includes an express run between Canal and 34th.
I was talking about Dekalb to Canal (bridge vs. tunnel). There the difference is only 6 minutes. And the R goes a longer distance and stops more often.
While moving, the R goes faster. That doesn't mean it gets there sooner and I never said it did.
I see you do LOVE that rat infested tunnel, instead of the beautiful scenery of the Lower Manhattan skyline. At least you get to see a 119 year old bridge looking to the south and a 99 year old bridge to the north.
And I forgot one important detail, you CANNOT do 21.8 mph on the Cortlandt Street curve either.
How could the tunnel be faster than the bridge? I thought that they both stayed in place.
The bridge wobbles whenever a train goes over.
I guess that would make the bridge faster than the tunnel. Or does the tunnel also wobble?
Every time a train goves over the Manhattan Bridge, it has been known to sway as much as 10 feet in either direction. But you don't notice it as you are riding it, and I haven't use the new pedestrian/bike path on the south side of the bridge to feel the shocks either.
I don't recall any noticeable swaying when I walked the walkway not long after it first opened. Either the swaying that is reported here is grossly exagerrated (most likely true) or the bridge work strengthening the WEST side has been a great success.
Someone may have already made this point - I haven't read all the posts in this long thread - but surely what passengers care about is how long their journey takes, not the actual speed the train is travelling at. So if DeKalb to Canal takes 8-8.5 minutes by bridge and 14-15 minutes by tunnel, the bridge is quicker. The illusion of higher speed by the tunnel is simply because the tunnel goes a more roundabout way (four miles instead of 2.5), which is not a virtue!
Of course the bridge gets you to midtown in less time. I was commenting on all those postings complaining how slow the trains move through the tunnel, pointing out that it's the distance and the stops, not the speed, that make it take longer than the bridge. Many people have suggested it's the speed. (Not that speeds on the tunnel route are high.)
Yet people continue to cram onto the E in Jamaica to go downtown, while the J/Z, which moves slower, takes less time to get there.
The J/Z skip-stop service only operates 1 hour in the morning and only 50 minutes in the evening. If NYCT improved the schedules on the J/Z line by offering rush hour service from 6:30 AM to 8:30 AM in the morning and 4 PM to 6:30 PM, then more people at Jamaica Center and Supthin/Archer would use this line than the sardin-E
I know what kind of foolishness is that? 6 Z trains in the morning and ONLY 5 in the PM rush, that's just silly if you ask me and there's a good crowd well past the times it runs. Unless the flyover track is built along with a 3rd track, skip stop should be expanded at this time.
Skip-stop is offered exactly when the E is most crowded. Beyond skip-stop hours, headways on the J are greater than 5 minutes, so local passengers would have headways of over 10 minutes.
where's Atcheson?
Kansas
Atchison (not Atcheson) is a few miles north of Kansas City.
Toto... I don't think we are in Kansas anymore....
He was in the Truman Administration and was known for his "School of Cowardly Communist Containment."
He was in the Truman Administration and was known for his "School of Cowardly Communist Containment."
He was the school's Dean.
:)
Santa Fe refers to the Santa Fe trail and not Santa Fe New Mexico.
All right.
Which came first then, the Holy Faith trail, or the city of Holy Faith, NM?
The trail came first. If you notice the ATSF main line does not even go into Santa Fe, NM. In fact the ATSF sold the branch into Santa Fe NM to Michael Gross (a well known fan of the ATSF who is also an actor), and he is running it as the Santa Fe Southern.
"Which came first then, the Holy Faith trail, or the city of Holy Faith, NM?"
A quick google search finds that the Spanish founded La Villa Real de la Santa Fe de San Francisco de Asís in the early 1600s.
The Santa Fe Trail was a migration path for Americans moving westward. Again, a quick google search comes up with 1829.
>>> where's Atcheson <<<
Go to Topeka and follow the railroad tracks till you see a sign reading "Birthplace of Amelia Earhart" in the Northeastern part of Kansas. :-)
Tom
I stopped by the TM store in GCT today. Wow - was it crowded.
Anyway they have copies of the January 2003(regular/blue)edition of The Map. So far the only change i can see is the add on the back for the current model train exhibit at the store.
Picked up a copy of the January issue of The Map at Grand Central today. No changes.
Didn't Allan like... just say that?
Anyway they have copies of the January 2003 Map.
Being from the outskirts of town, up in the yonder Hudson,
my eyebrows perked up at seeing there's a new version out..
but I'll wait to get one when I finally manage to get back
downtown again...
(Sorry, brah... 'm not about to dish out $7.50 for a Map).. :(
$7.50? Where do you get your maps? I hope you are not thinking of the TM online store. They don't carry the maps.
At most it should cost you 2 stamps if you send a self addressed envelope to the MTA.
$7.50? Where do you get your maps? I hope you are not thinking of the TM online store. They don't carry the maps.
At most it should cost you 2 stamps if you send a self addressed envelope to the MTA.
LOL! Read his quote again:
Being from the outskirts of town, up in the yonder Hudson,
my eyebrows perked up at seeing there's a new version out..
but I'll wait to get one when I finally manage to get back
downtown again...
I believe he meant the $7.50 to be a Metro-North fare from Hudson, which would be silly to spend just to get a map.
But then I thought about it. The same map should be at the Commuter stations also, because we sometimes forget that "The Map" is not just a subway map anymore, it also should be at Metro North and LIRR stations. Funny, I have never gotten "The Map" from my local LIRR station, any copy I have I always picked up in the city.
Why not just write to MTA and ask them to mail you one. TThey'll be happy to oblige. It would cost 0.60 to mail it, but they won't charge you even that.
They might send you the September 2002 edition. It is risky.
Ah, now I understand but surely you would not come in just to get a map. That would be crazy (yes I know what group we belong to).
:)
I derive the $7.50 cost from a fellow ebay/subtalker
whom SELLS (free!) Subway Maps on Ebay for a starting
price of $4.00 and dallops on an additional $3.50
for shipping ($7.50 total tab) which CAN appeal to
a non-NYer... but being from the far Hudson, I'd much
rather wait till I'm back downtown again ($4 funpass)
before stopping to get them at the GCT Store gratis.
I was implying, "Yay! there's a new version out... but
that doesn't mean I'm about to plop down $7.50 for
some fellow among us whom sells them" when they're
practically, statistically, legitimately otherwise free.
I appreciate your calculations and attempts at clarity~!!
1SF9
Wow! That's crazy if someone is selling the CURRENT map for that price.
Not only is the current map FREE, but if you call customer service at the Transit Authority, they will pay the postage.
And $3.50 for shipping? I sell old out of print maps on eBay,
(mostly from around 30 years ago, but with free listing day I listed a few out of print maps from last year)
and only charge $1.25 shipping, and I use a cardboard 5x7 photo mailer. If someone wants priority mail for whatever reason, I just charge what the post office charges, $3.90 and use the free priority mailers.
Even if I sell a poster style map, I'll only charge $2.00 shipping.
One person even sells the current map for .02 cents, then charges $4.95 shipping!
Anyway they have copies of the January 2003 Map.
Being from the outskirts of town, up in the yonder Hudson,
my eyebrows perked up at seeing there's a new version out..
but I'll wait to get one when I finally manage to get back
downtown again...
(Sorry, Notch... 'm not about to dish out $7.50 for a Map).. :(
Perdona mi double-post, Monsieur Pirmann...
(Sorry for the double-post, Sire Pirmann..)
I live right next to the NEC in an apartment complex in Edison (located between Metuchen and Metropark) and I have many chances to hear many / if not all, trains that go through there. It has come to my attention that without looking, I can sense if the train is an MU (NJT), and sometimes a push-pull (NJT). It gets harder trying to distinguish an AMTRAK train from a push-pull NJT (without looking) but not impossible.
Is the difference in electric motor usage contribute to the slight, differences in sound?
Anything else I should know about?
The trains I am referring to are normal, commuter trains, preferably 8-10 cars in length. Long-distance trains, (i.e. Crescent) are easy to detect, since they always have an extended number of cars and their wheels rattle noisily as they spin on some cars.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
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I'm getting to feel like Armee Archer and Roger Ebert by playing the movie critic, but my wife and I are trying to catch up for all the weeks that we didn't go. Just saw Maid in Manhattan this afternoon and it was even better than Two Weeks Notice and Catch Me If You Can. There were plenty of New York Subway scenes in the Bronx where Jennifer Lopez lived. It could have been the #6 Train, I'm not sure. But it all turned out well at the end. I even got a personal boost out of it because the politician lover of hers was a Republican and in the end he won election to the US Senate. Hollywood must have had a brain lapse. It is the first time I can ever remember a Republican coming out as a good guy in any such picture made in La La Land.
(I even got a personal boost out of it because the politician
lover of hers was a Republican and in the end he won election to the US Senate. Hollywood must have had a brain lapse. It is the first time I can ever remember a Republican coming out as a good guy in any such picture made in La La Land.)
It was actually a subliminal criticism. The movie maker intimated that the Republicans were screwing the Hispanics.
Maybe so Larry, but we Gopers have got to take whatever positives we can whenever a movie portrays us. I've seen way too many flicks that do just the opposite. BYW, President Bush is very popular with Hispanics and we will see if they translate into votes in 2004. I'm betting it does. If the Republicans ever win the Hispanic vote the Democrats are toast. Besides, those movies have shown the New York Subway and I always get a charge when I seen those trains rushing across the screen. It reminds me that while I'm a Californian for 48 years I will always have some New York in me.
BYW, President Bush is very popular with Hispanics and we will see if they translate into votes in 2004. I'm betting it does. If the Republicans ever win the Hispanic vote the Democrats are toast.
Republicans are getting some Hispanic votes in many parts of the country, but New York is a conspicuous exception. New York Hispanics continue to vote overwhelmingly Democratic.
The movie maker intimated that the Republicans were screwing the Hispanics.
Not that they could do any more than hint, as otherwise the movie would've gotten an R rating. Not to mention the fact that J-Lo refuses to show her "charms" on screen.
I think a good brand name for toilet tanks would be <7> FLUSHING EXPRESS.
I'm sure alot of you have seen Joe Testagrose's work on nycsubway.org. My question is, how in the world does he get so close to and such crisp pictures? I mean, some of his pictures are over 30 years old and still look marvelous. I bring this question up because I was looking at his recently posted pics of the MBTA in the 70's and 80's. They are absolutely marvelous and seem to have been taken in areas that are hard to get to nowadays. Any comments?
GO TERPS!!!
.
My question is, how in the world does he get so close to and such crisp pictures? I mean, some of his pictures are over 30 years old and still look marvelous
My guess is that they are probably slides.
They are Kodachrome slides. Most were Kodachrome II (K25), others were Kodachrome X (K64). Kodachrome thesedays are very hard to find. Steve Zabel was mostly C41 negative film. He later converted to slides.
Most of my train photos are slides (Kodachrome 64). There is no beating the sharpness of the photographs using slide film. Luckily, my local CVS usually has it, but if they are out, I'm almost at a loss as to where to get it - very hard to find. IThey used to scan well too, now if only I could get my scanner to scan them well again. Something is set wrong on the scanner, and I can't figure out what it is. I get a greenish tint to the scans that I didn't get when I first bought the scanner a few months ago. I'm to the point that I may just uninstall it from my computer just to reinstall it new again. It's been driving me crazy.
I haven't bought Kodachrome in ages, but have you checked Adorama and B&H in Manhattan? They have outrageously low prices on the film I generally use and they have a large variety.
I think I've been at B&H a few times, if that is one of the camera shops in the West 30's near Penn Station. I don't think I've ever been at Adorama. I'll have to try them. I'll just buy a bunch of rolls at once. I'll be cheaper than buying them at CVS for sure, and half the time they don't even have it.
B&H is the big store on the east side of 9th Avenue between 33rd and 34th. Adorama is a much smaller store on 18th between 6th and 7th. Both post their prices online (and take online orders, if you won't be in the city for a while).
>>>B&H is the big store on the east side of 9th Avenue between 33rd and 34th.<<<
The store with that really neat product delivery system.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah if you're a railfan, or an elevatorfan, B&H is pretty neat even if you're just windowshopping.
B&H does carry Kodachrome and, when I was there in November, still had a small stash of discontinued K-25 professional, 200' bulk reels only, that they were keeping "on ice" for those of us who really would rather use the slow stuff. Since I'm not equipped for bulk loading I had to pass... don't recall the exact price they quoted but it wasn't unreasonable ($185 comes to mind but I may not be remembering correctly). Their prices are generally quite good but, if you're purchasing Kodak prepaid mailers (PK-24 or PK-36) make sure that you get ones with long expiration dates if you're not going to use them right away... I rejected the first box of PK-36 offered because the expiration date was February 2003 (only three months out)... Kodak ships them to their distribution centers with a 30-month expiration so you should be able to get ones with two full years to go at retail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>My guess is that they are probably slides. <<
I tried scanning some of my 1960s slides recently (with a slide attachment in my scanner) but I found most are in too tough a shape to be rescued. Lots of scratches, etc. Perhaps I'm doing it the wrong way?
Could I take these slides to a developer and get photos produced? Some are of the construction on the Verrazano Bridge and i'd like to get prints.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If there are scratches, that could be a problem. That's just like if you scratch regular negatives. As for getting them made into prints, yes that can be done. Years back I had done that with a few slides.
Some are of the construction on the Verrazano Bridge and i'd like to get prints.
I have a few slides that my father took on the Statue of Liberty Ferry of the World Trade Center being built. I always used to look at them in awe, thinking, Wow, that's from before they were finished. Well, unfortunately I look at them for a different reason now. I really should scan them one day - that is if I can ever get my scanner to stop putting a greenish haze over my slide-scans.
Joe and other photographers who take such good pictures weren't in a rush to shoot...they thought out the composition of a shot before just aiming the camera and clicking away.
Sometimes that good shot doesn't come with the first traint hat comes along. You have to be patient and wait.
Oh, and it does help to have a somewhat decent camera.
Doug Grotjahn, the late Steve Zabel and a few others toos some outstanding photos. I don't kow why photographers nowadays can't do the same. Some of the stuff I see on websites of current subway equipment is just pure crap photography. C'mon, guys, you can do just like the "old timers" if y'all would just be patient, WAIT for the good lighting and angle.
Well, sometimes you've got TA employees eyeballing you thinking you're a hazard to the agency. Plus, do you really think a rail yard or bus depot would allow you to freely roam their facilities and snap pictures of what's inside?
Patience, check.
Some of us common lensmen HAVE the patience AND the skill...
...what we DON'T have is the TA Police handing us an iced
pina colada to drink while waiting around for the gloryshot
(on the contrary, we get scooted or summonsed)..
Can't get to point B without the everneeded point A.
EXACTLY! But even so, I plan on spending my new found time in NYC honing my subway digital photography skillz.
---Brian
U aint alone, brah!
& Welcome!!
Equipment is important, too. A lot of railfans also favored larger size negatives. I always dreamed of having a Graflex. The late Roger Arcara used to rehabilitate large format cameras and sell them at reasonable prices.
A lot of the better photography that my brother and I did for SIlver Leaf was done with Panatomic X film (B/W). It was slower than most film (ASA 64, IIRC) but very fine grained. The picture at the center of the SIRT, 8-1/2x11 blown up from a 35mm frame used Panatomic films.
Some builder's photos were taken with orthocromatic film, which gave warmer pictures than the panchromatic film commonly used.
Steve couldn't be any more right. You have to take time when shooting down below. Some of the photos I see on these websites look like someone was swinging a camera around in there hand, and managed to click the shutter once. First off, I hate digital camera's, second, NO the equipment really isnt that important. All you need, is an SLR, or rangefinder camera, and a good sharp lense, with a flash(if needed). Take time, and stand back as far as you can, avoid just taking a picture of the train, get the hole platform, and train. Well, I hope you take my advice..
I've been wanting to hop on the NYC Subway photography bandwagon for some time, and I appreciate your input, but... what's an SLR? :)
Single lens reflex. When you look thru the viewfinder of the SLR, you are seeing your frame (no offsetting your picture a bit to the side like a rangfinder type) of your picture. WYSIWYG!
Rangefinders can be better for some photography, perticularaly low-light(no mirror kickback). I do prefer SLR's anyway, less expensive (in most cases), they usually don't look like they were manufactured in 1950 (i.e. Leica M6), and you can add more auxiliary equipment (flashes ect.).
I do prefer SLR's anyway ... they usually don't look like they were manufactured in 1950...
Unless they were :-) I have a fairly large collection of cameras, and while my main railfan camera bag contains two Canon FTb SLRs (vintage 1971-72), several lenses, and a Minolta point 'n' shoot, I also have five Exaktas, two of which date to the 1930s. They were the best SLRs of their day, and I still use the three newer ones (which date from the early '50s through mid-'60s). The Exaktas are heavy and somewhat complicated so I mostly use them for photographing flowers nowadays, where I'm using a tripod.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've had a Leica M6 for two decades, just not the greatest camera for the average railfan. Sure, they do look like some product of 1945, but they deliver fantastic performance. Quite pricey for a begginer though...
>>> You have to take time when shooting down below. Some of the photos I see on these websites look like someone was swinging a camera around in there hand, and managed to click the shutter once <<<
The real problem is lack of editing. When I was regularly taking photographs as a hobby, I would discard 80% of them as not having enough value to show to anyone else. It was common practice to make contact sheets of rolls of film and only print the keepers at a larger size.
Tom
Thats a good point I really didn't think about. People these days just throw whatever they get, strait on to the website. Talking about photography so much, has inspired me to finally go through my boxes of photos, and yes, there will be some subway photos in there. There's about 15-25 shoe box size boxes, in my closet(my closet the old darkroom) filled with negatives, and prints, from the late 50's, through mid 70's. Just think, my hole life in boxes.
>>> There's about 15-25 shoe box size boxes, in my closet(my closet the old darkroom) filled with negatives, and prints, from the late 50's, through mid 70's. <<<
I hope you find some good ones to post.
Tom
Ive already found some good ones, culver shuttle, and low v's on the third ave el. (bronx portion). Other than that, found some old WTC photos, from the eary 70's. I'll post some when I get to it, I want to go out and buy a new scanner before I do.
I dunno ... some pictures you may find unacceptable might be beautiful and well-liked by others. Most of us are not professional or semi-professional photographers. That one picture of the Snediker Ave El you thought was too ordinary might be very much appreciated in a few years.
--Mark
Very true, we all appreciate the older stuff, because it is gone, or looks different now. We don't pay as much attention to the current stuff because the current stuff is ordinary right now.
When I first started taking photos in the mid to late 80's, I avoided all the "current" or "ordinary" trains/stations, etc. I was more excited about the clean, just rebuilt R42's, etc, clean refurbished stations, etc.
Can you see the mistake I made here?
I avoided the "common" grafittied R27-30's, grafittied R16's, grafitied stations, etc. Now which photos would I be really happy to see right now, the R42's or the grafitied R27's in a graffited dirty station that were commonplace back then? The "rare" clean R42's and "rare" clean station became the commonplace, and the common filthy trains/stations became the rarity. I love the precious few photos I have of the "undesireable" trains/stations of the time.
Or the only known photo I have that my father took of the subway, before the grafitti crisis, truly rare to me anyway, because he is/was not a railfan:
So the moral is, get your seemingly "common" photos now, as one they they will be the rarity photos one day.
Your "mistake" apparently referred to you starting to take pictures in the mid to late 80's. Graffiti surfaced in the early 70's. As for this picture, it was taken in the early 70's because at around 1981 or so, they stopped using these rollsigns, because of the massive color changes on the route maps that we currently use today.
Also note the old BMT sytle MYRTLE AVE sign on the left side of this picture.
Yeah, that's the only photo I have that my father took of the subway, it was from the early to mid-70's I believe.
As for my "mistake", I mean that when I started taking photos as a teenager in the late 80's, I didn't take much of the common stuff at the time (graffitied R27's, etc.) I took the newly returned R42's, etc, because they were the rarity, not the graffited trains, which was common. I didn't have any photo of my graffitied trains scanned into my laptop, and I am not home to scan one quickly, so I used the only photo my father took of a train, which was before the graffiti era started in full force.
>>> That one picture of the Snediker Ave El you thought was too ordinary might be very much appreciated in a few years. <<<
But there wouldn't be just one picture of the Snediker Ave El. There would be perhaps 25 with different angles, exposures, filters, and lenses. Of the 25, 8-10 would be worth keeping and the others which would be close approximations of the keepers would be discarded.
Another example; on a recent trip to San Francisco I saw what looked like a good photo of a sailboat passing in front of Alcatraz Island. It was a partly cloudy day with the sun just peeking out from behind a cloud. I took five photos in rapid succession with the boat in slightly different positions in front of the island, and slightly different lighting on the boat and island as the sun emerged from the cloud. Only one of the five pictures was kept. Showing all five to anyone other than a photography class would be boring.
Tom
Practice makes perfect.
The pictures he takes are so rich in nostaliga (saw one with the old Yankee Stadium in the backdrop, taken while on the #4 subway station.), it DOES show he has a great love for public transportation systems nationwide.
saw one with the old Yankee Stadium in the backdrop, taken while on the #4 subway station
Like this one?
No I didn't take it (wasn't even born yet) but it's one of the ones I have in my collection from a shoebox full of photos my father bought at a yardsale in the 70's. (I posted some others back in November - I'll scan some more when I get a chance). No idea who the photographer is.
I've been wanting to get back up to Yankee Stadium and take a current shot of the same photo angle one day.
No, it wasn't that old (I think this is a Hi-V car, pre-unification). Picture probably was taken sometime in the 40's (note the incandescent bulb on the Woodlawn bound platform). Great to share the photo with your fellow Sub-Talkers.
Kool-D, See if I have that picture you are talking about right. Was it the one taken on May 27, 1970 and has a bunch of different cars on it? If it is, that picture has stuck in my mind for some reason. The one I'm trying to figure out is the one of the Triplex#4 Sea Beach that was described as the N train in caption. I have been trying to find out if there is any way one earth to know just when that picture was snapped. Are there records of it? I would give just about anything to know. I think it is one of the oldest pictures in the photo file.
The Yawnkee Stadium one with r22-7557 comes to mind...
I agree with you completely- of all the great photographers on this website, his are the best.
Here's one of my favorites- it happens to be the elevated station I grew up next to- this photo gives me such beautiful memories..even if Burke Ave station on the White Plains Road line in the Bronx means nothing to you, the photo itself is absolutely gorgeous.
the link:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r17/r17-6652.jpg
Check it out, it's worth it :)
And, thanks a million, Mr. Joe Testagrose.
IS the Metro North railroad getting a new faclity? Because when i was watching a Metro North train go by yankee staduim or near that area it looks like a massive building is being built. You can even see it when you are going over to jersey on the cross bronx expressway or on the deegan in both directions. What is this?
Probably a new Metro-North station that has been promised for Yankee Stadium.
But the thing is that it is a far distance away from yankee staduim. Its in the shape of a Train facility.I noticed it awhile back but paid no attention. It is more close to the river park towers.
CATCH THE WAVE IN MODELING
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Part of a new service yard, then?
Part of the Eastside Access Project (LIRR to Grand Central) involves relocating part of a Metro-North storage yard. Could this be it? I don't remember seeing a contract solicitation on MTA's web site about it, but the contract would have been let some time ago, so maybe I just missed it.
Yes, yes, it's a new MNRR storage yard and repair facility to replace space in GCT to be taken up by the LIRR connection. It's not a new station for Yankee Stadium.
this is a new yard/repair facility that is going in for metro north as part of the LIRR ESA project. basically, MN will loose a little space at GCT for LIRR to get in there, and as part of the project, they're getting a rebuilt highbridge yard.
work has also commensed in queens for this project. the old LIRR freight yard "A" in LIC has lost a lot of rail this last month, as they'll be digging it up a bit to drop the tunnel boring machine into 63rd st. lower level.
LIRR is also getting a new shop in LIC, being built at jackson av, just across from the hunters point av. station.
NY&A will get a rebuilt blissville yard, and their shop moved to fresh pond, in trade for the loss of yard a, which will eventually be an MU storage yard like the one on the west side...
got all that?
THANKS. So it will be called the Highbridge yard. Good looking.Hmm> I think i will take pictures the next time i am go over their.
AMTRAK MODELIN'
Yes, it happens in America, too. This last summer, Paramount's King's Dominion, an amusement park just north of Ashland, VA (where the sniper wounded their last victim), brought in a bunch of college kids from (mostly) Poland, who went back when their contracts expired at the end of summer. At one time, they made up more than half of the park's employees. Does anything like that happen with the MTA, or is this just an isolated case?
>>> Does anything like that happen with the MTA, or is this just an isolated case? <<<
I am not aware of the MTA needing seasonal workers like an amusement park does, but it is not an isolated case. California brings farm workers from Mexico, and I remember meeting an English girl who had been hired in England and was taking a ferry to Santa Catalina Island to take a summer job at a hotel there.
Tom
Yes, the are called WEP workers, they are brought in from the hood.
It happens every year. Most US college age people rather work in IT during the summer than working in minimum wage. People from Europe jump at the chance to vacation while working in America (aren't we luckly we live here). They are hired as a group and placed in housing as a group, usually by a company that is hired to provide these temps.
In addition to ride operators, they are also employed as life guards.
The MTA would never hire such a group because of cultural difference, slangs used in transportation industry, union objections, training, and safety.
FYI: The last sniper victim was Conrad Johnson, a Ride-On bus driver and transit professional, shot on the front steps of Orion V 5705 while waiting to start his run in Aspen Hill, MD.
How touching of them to honor him in this way.
5705 has returned to service according to others on BusTalk, I have yet to see it myself. It also led the processional of buses from Silver Spring to Glenarden for Mr. Johnson's funeral. Several buses were seen with the banners, although they are being taken off. I saw 5722 several weeks ago and it still had it, but 5705 no longer does. The ribbons were put on all the buses' mirrors in the days after he was shot, but most were gone within a week. I did see one Gillig Phantom at Bethesda this past week that still had them.
The Ride-On community has been very supportive of his family. Read this Washington Post article, printed on the 20th of December, for a very touching example.
Yesterday, on one of the TV stations, it was reported that NYPD is laying off over 100 janitors. As facilities will still have to be cleaned, I am sure that these jobs will be taken over by WEP workers, or "Guest Workers". It saves money for NYPD. The same I fear is coming to the subways/bus facilities if the contract between NYCT and TWU is approved by the membership. Toussaint agreed to the changes in the job security language thereby opening the door. I fear the end result will be TA cleaners (CTA's) will be the next group to be let go, to be replaced by WEP's. On the property we'll have large groups of people forced to cross electrified third rails carrying their cleaning supplies in both yards and underground areas to get to their trains. Are the WEP's going to be taught track safety? The TA preaches "SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY" to the point of nagging the workforce. As you get more and more WEP's in the TA, safety goes down the drain since a fair amount of them don't want to hold down steady employment.
Yard cleaners, lone station cleaners and the mobile wash are likely untouchable. WEP workers need a lead cleaner to supervise them anyway.
There are no 'guest workers' in Transit per se. There would be a phenomenal stench forded by CTAs if WEPs were assigned to replace CTAs. I personally know 'the keeper of the WEPs' in my shop and he would tell you that they have problems and all but a few could not make it in Civil Service. This is a pending problem of the proposed contract that we are soon to receive and ratify (or not.) I will NOT get into details about the contract but will simply say it favors those with abscence and diciplinary problems.....THIS board is not the place for such discussions.
For those of you who read my posts and are members of the transit family, I urge you NOT to ratify the contract and accept 'comes what may.' I'm not going to say that arbitration will get us something better but we've lost our powers and made fools of in the eyes of the public. I know that there are members of RTO, Stations and CED on this board. We must remain cool and clearheaded but above all, united. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Now I know this has come up in recent weeks. But I saw 2 R142A #4 trains and they looked like SH??. Then i looked at an R142A #6 and it was clean. And then I went and came upon a R142 #2 and #5 train and noticed that the #2,#5,And #6 where shinning.Is there something happening to the #4 cars that they cant go to a wash.
AMTRAK MODELING
It called the 32 degree factor. This has been going on for as long as I can remember.
No one wants to wash anything if it's freezing outside. The subway car would ice-up, and even worse, the doors might tend to stick, which put the car OOS.
Chuck Greene
The 2/5/6 lines have easy access to a car wash since it is in their respective storage yards, the 4 line does not. The 4 fleet gets washed at nearby Concourse Yard. Perhaps someone on this board (Train Dude?) may know if the R142A is or is not allowed to go thru the car wash at CCYD and why.
Could be qualification issues between the IRT and BMT/IND. I know that #4 cars are laid up at CCYD on weekends, not sure about M-F. Do IRT guys lay them up and the BMT/IND guys take them thru the wash? If so, the BMT/IND guys would be qualified on the older equipment since they are all SMEE, but they would not be qualified on the R142A.
You know that is a good point. I have seen redbirds parked in the IND part on a thursday. But i thought the people from the maintence faclity take it through the wash. Guess I was wrong.
AMTRAK MODELIN
The only people allowed to move trains are train operators and supervisors who are former train oprators.
Thanks for clearing that up.
AMTRAK MODELING
Bill, I believe the IRT man will bring a train down from Mosholu and wash it himself. I'm pretty sure that's the way it works right now.
Most of the #4 trains are washed at 239 or Westchester YDS.
O yea. Thats right that why I see R62 from the 3 and 4 at 239st coming and going during the afternoon.
AMTRAK MODELIN'
Ok now i know that many off us have been on the Amtrak acela and have had good or bad experiences on it. What do you think needs to be improved about Amtrak High speed train?
AMTRAK MODELIN'
I believe we need a faster Acela Express, I see there is 2 stretches of straight track, I think Amtrak needs to upgrade the Acela Express to 175 mph, 150 mph is kinda slow, I also think Amtrak needs to upgrade the tracks and replace catenary with new euro types. Amtrak should upgrade the Acela Express to have more horsepower, to reach speeds of 175 mph, and reduce some of that weight that the Acela hauls. I also had a idea of having a HST dedicated track, but nah, I also think betwen NY and WAS, they need to upgrade the tracks to handle 150-160 mph operation, 135 mph is to slow.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
One of the things holding them back possibly is having trains blast by commuter rail stations at speeds of higher than 150. Have you even been on a platform where an acela blasts past you at more than 100mph? Not the best feeling, close to 200mph? No thank you I don't even want to try that. If you're on a NJT train and an acela whizzes by you, it's usually around 90 or so on the NEC (I think), it feels like the train is going to be as flat as a can.
Why do you think they have signs that tell you to stand the F$$$ back when a train approaches, or common sense tells you to stand back if you see a train coming at high speed, they also have speed limits also, so not all of the corridor can be all high speed, and yes I have had Acela's blasts past me before in New Jersey, 2 Acela's going in the opposite directions went past me and the same time, but everyone was smart enough to stand the F#$% back. And Amtrak doesn't give a damn, they just wanna give customers on board the highest customer satisfaction they can. The Acela is supposed to be a so called TGV, well it should start acting like it!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Get real. Customer satisfaction includes those who have to stand on the platform while the train goes by, and they need to be happy as well. Also, common sense dictates the fact the train can not go through local stations at too high a speed.
But it does. For example, AE passes Mansfield, MA at full speed, 150 mph. At places the Mansfield platform is just four feet wide... and savvy commuters know to hang on with their backs to the train!
Where on the NEC? I know it reaches 135 near Hamilton.
In Massachusetts: Sharon, Mansfield, and Attleboro all see AE pass by at 150 mph.
I've seen the AE at 100mph s/b past Metuchen station on Track 3, (it doesn't look like it's going that fast though) and it is not that bad from the n/b platform. The only other issue is that if a high-speed train is passing by Track 2, the n/b exp. track, there is a very loud track switch at the middle of the platform and gets very annoying to the ears. (even if you're a railfan)
The sound is "pleasant" to a railfan if one is waiting outside the n/b platform on the parking lot, but on the platform? Passengers waiting scramble for earplugs, or just show a wave of dissatisfaction because of the noise.
I've never been more than 80mph before on a train (I've never ridden AMTRAK before, NJT since 1993 or so) or 85mph in a car, so I don't know what 100mph or 150 will be like. (I know it's the same because you move with the train but the experience)
Thing is, I think 150mph is OK for passing stations as long as there are no restrictions or that the restrictions allow it.
NOTE: How can someone say 150mph is too slow?
NOTE: How can someone ask a stupid question like that?
150 mph is slow for a High Speed Train, and the Acela is supposed to be a High Speed TGV Train, meaning 175 mph would be nice!
ANOTHER NOTE: How the @#%& can you not ride amtrak before?? That's a insult to me and other Amtrak railfans!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
It's NOT the maximum speed that counts. It's the AVERAGE speed. The problem is that AE can only reach 150 mph for 18 miles between BOS and NYC, resulting in a 3:34 scheduled trip time. If it were for 100 miles, there would be significant improvement in scheduled trip time.
But increasing from 150 to 175 mph for that 18 miles would only shave off a few mintues.
ok lets use 180 mph for exsample. 150 mph is 24 sec per mile, and 180 is 20 sec per mile.
so on a 18 mile stretch the savings in time 150 vs 180 mph is a whopping 72 seconds. not something to brag about. besides the trainset has the power but is limited by design to 160 mph max.
ok lets take New rochelle to New haven 70 mph vs 90 mph. on distance of 56.3 miles (CP216 to Division point)speed continous from entering MNCW to Leaving MNCW.
70 miles per hour = 56.3 miles x 51 sec is 47.8 minutes.
90 miles per hour = 56.3 miles x 40 seconds is 37.5 minutes.
now take the unavoidable speed restrictions and add those to the travel time and the differece gets smaller and smaller.
bridge restrictions are unavoidable as bridges can not take impact of wheels at higher speeds (even newer bridges are restricted) all bridges on new haven are in 40 to 45 mph range.
(Cos Cob - Norwalk - Saga - Peck - Devon)
certain curves can not be removed or speeded up, like stateline curve with 4 bridges in a curve.
New Rochelle interlocking can not be made much higher and a flyover is out of question.
Jenkins Curve in Bridgeport won't be removed and will be 30 mph forever.
max speed getting in and out of New Haven station maze is 30 mph.
so would Amtrak improve running time without inconviniencing Nimbies or MNCW commuters could you please answer ??
Shaving off a few minutes is good, that way we have a real High Speed Train (TGV), maybe 11 mph slower than a regular TGV, but's close enough.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
TGV's handle 320 km/h (260 or so MPH, IIRC) along their DEDICATED ROW!!! Now, amtrak does 150 mph on a shared ROW. The difference is this: while The TGV and high speed Shankishen(sp? whatever) run in basically farmland areas where they can straighten the line, build brdges, and run their own schedule, Amtrak runs through densly populated areas, where one CANNOT do anything to the ROW, and AMTRAK has NO freedom of scheduling along one portion of the route. P.S. Amtrak never set out to build the world's fastest. They only wanted to compete with the airlines. If you notice, the TGV's are restricted to 30-50 km/h within city limits, on a shared ROW.
On another topic:
APOLOGIZE TO RAILFAN PETE.
>>NOTE: How can someone ask a stupid question like that?<<
He's right, you know(RFP). It's over 100 Mph, it's quite comfortable, and it was designed for that speed. Do me a favor, realize something we've ALL BEEN TRYIN TO TELL YOU: The train will never go significantly above 150. NEVER!!! The AECS signal control (where up) is set for 150 as max ACELA speed. The FRA gave the acela a 150 rating: the train can go no faster.
>>ANOTHER NOTE: How the @#%& can you not ride amtrak before?? That's a insult to me and other Amtrak railfans!<<
The site is actually SUBtalk, not AMTalk, not ACELAtalk. He has as much right to post here as you. BTW, he noticed that from THE OUTSIDE, the train makes a lot of noise.
TGV's handle 320 km/h (260 or so MPH, IIRC) along their DEDICATED ROW!!! Now, amtrak does 150 mph on a shared ROW. The difference is this: while The TGV and high speed Shankishen(sp? whatever) run in basically farmland areas where they can straighten the line, build brdges, and run their own schedule, Amtrak runs through densly populated areas, where one CANNOT do anything to the ROW, and AMTRAK has NO freedom of scheduling along one portion of the route. P.S. Amtrak never set out to build the world's fastest. They only wanted to compete with the airlines. If you notice, the TGV's are restricted to 30-50 km/h within city limits, on a shared ROW.
On another topic:
APOLOGIZE TO RAILFAN PETE.
>>NOTE: How can someone ask a stupid question like that?<<
He's right, you know(RFP). It's over 100 Mph, it's quite comfortable, and it was designed for that speed. Do me a favor, realize something we've ALL BEEN TRYIN TO TELL YOU: The train will never go significantly above 150. NEVER!!! The AECS signal control (where up) is set for 150 as max ACELA speed. The FRA gave the acela a 150 rating: the train can go no faster.
>>ANOTHER NOTE: How the @#%& can you not ride amtrak before?? That's a insult to me and other Amtrak railfans!<<
The site is actually SUBtalk, not AMTalk, not ACELAtalk. He has as much right to post here as you. BTW, he noticed that from THE OUTSIDE, the train makes a lot of noise.
Oh, so the division between a high speed train is somewhere between 150 and 175 MPH? This is news to me. The Acela goes at higher speeds than its predecessors, so I believe it qualifies as a high speed train.
The Acela is not suspoesd to be a high speed TGV train. It's design is derived from the TGV and other existing high speed trains in order to comply with FRA regulations.
Finally, please stop with the cursing. It is extremely unplesant to read. Also, cursing is regarded as a sign of ignorance. Your vocabulary is apparently so small, you have no choice other than to use a curse word in every other sentence.
My Vocabulary is not small, I cursed because I felt like it, It's not a everyday that you have a bad day and your not in the mood.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Maybe you are having a bad day today, but I have noticed that you tend to curse in all your posts. I wish you would refrain from doing so. If you wish to disucss this further, please e-mail me, although I won't have access to it or this board for the next week or so.
Hey Buddy, that's where your wrong, I curse in some of my posts, maybe you don't read all of my posts, I only curse sometimes.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Does it really matter to you? Which means you do curse in your normal speech.
Second of all, if you're angry, you don't take it out on someone else. Especially, since the SubTalker didn't do anything bad to you.
Think before you post. If you're angry, probably it's time to cool down on the posting for a while.
People of intelligence generally are capable of expressing themselves without cursing. You should try it sometime.
I have not ridden AMTRAK before because it is pricey. I've been planning to ride an AE to Washington or Boston from New York or from an intermediate stop but the prices soar. And you know I need an accompaniment to travel so that doubles the fare. RT from New York to Boston was $248 and if you think money grows on trees, we can't possibly spend that much for a railfan trip, as there are so many things we can do with that much money. I know AMTRAK has offered the "companions ride free" offer, but there were no holidays or such that my dad could take off for us to ride.
Regular commuter trains the same. If we do ever ride AMTRAK as a family, it might be the long-distance ones. Commuter rail we prefer NJT but still we tend to drive everywhere we go to save $$$.
HA!
We don't need a faster Acela Express, it's got more than enough power to go fast, we need a LIGHTER acela express! Say it with me, Force equals Mass times Acceleration, right? If you go and bloat your trainset full of stuff for a collision which should never happen, and you do it in the stupidest, Conbardier way possible, ignoring all that engineering has learned in the past 40 some years of high speed train building, then all you will end up with is a pig. If you are intelligent and keep the trains traveling in separate directions on separate tracks, then you can afford to sacrifice some weight for speed.
Actually, we don't even need a new High Speed Train, if we're not going to go Maglev, then we need to have a completely new Northeast Corridor. That thing is a mess, rather than trying to get a new trainset, which, while flashy and full of oodles of plasticy gizmos, really will just leave us right back where we started. We need to completely upgrade the NEC before we can even think of running HSTs on it, and then, some estimates I heard say that even with some more track superelevation, constant tention cat, and signalling improvements, only maybe 30 miles out of all the NEC would be good for 150 mph running would be possible, as best. One way to increase average speeds would be to tell Metro North where they can get off, and kick they and Conndot off the NEC north of New York, it's ridiculous, Amtrak is forced to slow to 90 through there.
As for Acela itself, it never should pass 125 MPH. It's clear that it cannot hold itself together above that speed, and that it's own obesity litterally pulls itself apart when it runs at 135mph+. Paint them in the Silver and Black with the Red White and Blue stripe and run them as Metroliners at 125 tops until the NEC rebuild is done. Accept the fact that the AEM7 is so VASTLY SUPERIOR in every way to the AE, and then go hunting for a good trainset.
Germany has an excellent trainset in the ICE, especially the newest ones, the ICE3s. They even make a tilting version in the ICE-T, but hopefully that would not be necessary, due to the NEC improvement project. Currently I believe the ICE3 may have the fastest scheduled service in Europe, it's Cologne to Frankfurt run may just beat the TGV Atlantique's schedule.
Another promising train would be the Spanish Talgo 350, however that would create the antithesis of the AE. It would require the lowering of all high plaforms on the NEC, something that will NEVER happen, and also it's naturally tilting. I wonder if a Talgo and an Acela Express were to lock couplers, would it be like Matter and Antimatter? Would both trainsets be annihilated in a blinding flash? Or would it just be like looking at Dilligent and Dumbo, the AE looking clearly like Dumbo, after all, what other trainset sheds parts along the route, and now is left looking very strange without the side panels (although I for one like them gone).
Face it, Acela is hopeless, at this point all you can hope for is that this effort by Warrington doesn't bring down all efforts at High Speed rail in this country. I wonder how hard it is to get Dubya to add a group to his hit list, I mean axis of evil [duh Duh DUUUUH!], Conbardier certainly belongs there, if for no other reason than their performance in crafting the Potted Meat Product that is the Acela Express, it's gotta be a Canadian conspiracy the likes of which have never been imagined outside the late John Candy's epic, Canadian Bacon!
...all you will end up with is a pig.
Why do you think that this is a bad thing? :(:))
"I wonder how hard it is to get Dubya to add a group to his hit list, I mean axis of evil [duh Duh DUUUUH!], Conbardier certainly belongs there, if for no other reason than their performance in crafting the Potted Meat Product that is the Acela Express, it's gotta be a Canadian conspiracy the likes of which have never been imagined outside the late John Candy's epic, Canadian Bacon!"
Have you considered increasing your medication?
Why do people say more horsepower?
I've never heard anybody say that something needs more inches instead of saying that it has to be longer.
Longer??? What for??? The Acela just needs the weight to be reduced and to have a little more TGV power.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
You don't get the point of my post. Re-read it.
Scrap them, throw them in the same dump where the French Turbos went, and where the RTGs will probably end up pretty soon if Gunn has anything to say about it (I know their Paturki's play thing, but they are also his superflous, white elephant plaything). Then get serious, tell Bombardier where they can shove it. Hang the FRA for treason (after all, their the reason we're behind all the world in terms of High Speed trains, we'll use the Patriot act and classify it[damn, some of Dubyas semi-facist laws are good for something after all]) and use their stupid volumes of papers regarding building trains to survive a nuclear war as lining for your bird cage. Finally, call Siemens or Talgo and order some real trains, ICE3 on the Corridor, Talgo off, on places like the empire corridor. One last thing, start serious work on Maglev, we're just about there, something like an Induction Maglev using the Halbach array could be exactly what this country needs for Medium to Long trips. Then all those stupid shuttle flights will just fade away like a bad dream and magically airports will find that they actually have too many slots now that airplanes are only used for truely long-distance trips. The FAA will get a reprieve long enough to upgrade all their computers to LINUX, and we'll all cheer, because now we'll all feel safe. Since the LINUX systems are so vastly superior to the old systems, we can rebuild the on the site of the WTC, infinitely taller and never fear another attack, for the LINUX systems can keep much better track of planes. However, any terrorist action by the one-time Al Quiada would be doubtful, because we have all seen the light, and now Maglev's carry us in country, electric commuter trains are the rule of the day for most people commuting back into the big cities, cars are only for weekend excursions, the vast falloff in oil need makes the members of OPEC in the middle east beggars in their own country. Isreal aint much better off, we get a president who gets it, now that everything makes sense, and he sees what they are doing and cuts them off, they too are reduced to beggars in their own country, suddenly they find that it's hard to be the tough guy in the neighborhood when you're smaller than New Hampshire, only less productive agriculturally than Nevada, and you don't have the worlds only superpower looking out for you. Dubya is kicked out of power, his cabinet is discovered to be embezzling money, excepting Colin Powell, who steps down voluntarily, the republican leadership finishes the term in shame, a lame duck already. We get a new President, youngest yet, Dem of course, brilliant economist and stratician. The whole Iraq thing is dropped, and reparations are made to them for the inconvienience Dubya caused them. With all of this comes an immense upswing in the government and economy, Duh-byas neo-voodoo economics are erased, and we finally get a president with some fiscal responsibilty, he reigns in Congress, still mostly fat cats sadly, but changing rapidly, and once again, america rises to be the standard of the world, we sign a new ABM treaty with Russia, China, India, North Korea, and Pakistan. The space program, now languishing as a near branch of the military, and a near violation of several space peace treaties, is brought back from the brink, and we once again go to the moon, this time to stay, there is talk of going to Mars before 2015. This date is moved up becuase of a breakthrough in Fusion power not seen before, however, the old millworker who hit it big in the new economic boom saw fit to educate himself rather than simply fritter off his earnings. He went to school, where it was discovered that this man, who barely got his GED, is a genius, he enters the realm of particle physics, and solves the problem of getting Fusion Power to achieve a break even point. This of course means that now energy is dirt cheap, and with it, the second avenue subway, as well as the 9th and Fifth Ave subways, are dug and finished by 2010, just in time for people to use them to get to times sq to watch the first man (well, woman actually) land on Mars on the big jumbo-visions there. Within years, cheap fusion power transforms the world, poverty stricken areas recieve power, to run irrigation equipment, or to provide cheap electricity to heat homes in winter, free of charge, from the holder of most of the patents, our retired mill worker. The sudden fall off in famine and starvation has horrible effects upon things like religion, if there are no starving people, then there are no religious converts, and in a few decades man has completely rationalized his exsistance on this planet. Superstition and religious dogma are regarded as mere perversions of the mentally deficiant, and science rules, people realize physics, see the applications right in their lives, and with this all of humankind comes to a greater understanding of our surroundings. No longer are we huddled about the fire while priests, shamen and gurus scare us with stories of what lies in the darkness, we have learned to either enjoy the darkness, since nothing is really as bad as they say it is in there, or to focus the light from our fire into the darkness to expose the nothingness that is actually there.
OH, I'm sorry, it's quarter to five my dream of humans coming to grasp that the world around them is not the plaything of something as ephemeral as god was apparantly being typed on the screen while I slept, a kind of sleep-writing if you will. Anyway, what will really happen, Bombardier and Amtrak will stay locked in litigation for years, congress will get all POed, and dissolve amtrak. However, since they lack the mental capacity to find their rear end with both hands, a flash light and an anatomy book, they'll simply reinstate Warrington as head of a copy cat group, not fund it, and then expect it to profit. Almost certainly it wont, and in a last ditch bid to keep it going, Warrington will go to bombardier for a new trainset, Bombardier will snicker, go out back to where our old Acelas are parked, and paint II next to the Acela markings that they put on them while trying to sell them to other countries (oddly marketing analysts say that this may have sunk any prospects of selling those junkers), they'll yell "New AND Improved, Now 20% heavier thanks to all the BS we shoved in them" and Warrington will shout, "SOLD!" They'll be thrown on the tracks with no prior preperation for their use, by now thanks to negelct the old pennsy catenary towers are rusted solid, some of them obstructing tracks becuase they fell on them. As always the Acela II will be a nearly complete failure, and the cycle will repeat. Oh, and bush will get relected, after he involves us in the most disasterous war since Vietnam, and "family values" will rule with every child, regardless of race, religion, or background expected to pledge allegiance, not only to country, but now to ashcroft's "Almigthy Gawd" and we will continue, scared stiff around the fire, listening to the same people who have lead us time and time again to near ruin.
But hell, that's life.
Uh, I'm sorry. Did you say something?
OH HELL NAH, THATS SOME SERIOUS BULL@#$%, THE ACELA EXPRESS JUST NEEDS TO BE UPGRADED, AT THAT THE ENTIRE LINE NEED TO BE UPGRADED.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Yep. Its just that Warringtons priorities were either fvcked up, or he had a full bong in his hand the night he created the trains without the tracks.
Upgraded folks? The NEC has a $4.7 billion backlog. Maybe the line needs to be brought into a state of good repair before we talk about upgrades.
I can't believe I actually read that whole thing YOU DAMN ANTI-SEMITE BASTARD!
WHOAAAAA!!!! WHO THE @#$% ARE YOU CALLING A DAMN ANTI-SEMITE BASTARD?????????????? FIRST YOU BETTER CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE I SAY SOMETHING THAT I MIGHT REGRET!!! WE ALREADY WENT THROUGH THE FLAMING WAR MONTHS AGO ON SUBTALK, I AINT TRYING TO START UP AGAIN, SO IN OTHER WORDS WATCH THE @#$% U TALKING TO.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Calm down. He responded to the wrong post. (Not that I'm suggesting he should have responded to the post he meant to respond to.)
I AM TRULY SORRY. I DID NOT INTEND TO CALL YOU AN ANTI-SEMITE
I had intended to respond to WDobner's Post.
Again, sorry.
OHHHHHH ok, ahh don't worry about it, I thought you were referring to me.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modleing at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I've taken about two dozen round trips between BOS and NYP. The problem is not with the trainsets -- it's with the infrastructure. Large-scale capital projects are crutial to get the most out of the trainsets, including:
* Finishing replacement of the catenary between New Haven and New Rochelle
* Realignment of the right-of-way along the Connecticut coast (mostly east of New Haven, but also near Bridgeport)
* Priority dispatching around MN trains in MNRR territory, especially to eliminate frequent track switching which results in restricted speed.
Will all of this happen soon? No. But that's how to make Acela Express THE choice for travel between BOS and NYP... as it could bring the current 3:30 travel time down to well under 3:00.
Oh, yes. One BIG complaint on the trainsets. Replace the tray tables! The current design is horrible. They don't stay down, so if you have a cup of coffee sitting on the table, it is apt to retract upwards and take the cup with it. And they are very noisy when being extended or retracted.
Yes! I am glad to know I am not the only person who has this problem, which has been getting worse by the ride. I remember on my first few rides it wasn't too big a deal.
"* Realignment of the right-of-way along the Connecticut coast (mostly east of New Haven, but also near Bridgeport)"
Is that even being considered? Sounds hugely expensive with vast NIMBY potential.
"* Priority dispatching around MN trains in MNRR territory, especially to eliminate frequent track switching which results in restricted speed."
Why is this a big problem outside of rush hour (say, 7-9 AM NY bound and 4-7 PM New Haven bound)? The MNRR schedule at other times allows all MNRR trains to use the local track, since the express leaves Stamford for NY a few minutes before the local originates at Stamford, and similarly the express leaves GCT a few minutes before the local.
Also, on various occasions I have cooled my heels on an MNRR train between New Rochelle and Pelham waiting for an Amtrak train to get out of the way. My personal impression from the MNRR side is that Amtrak trains already have priority.
I've been on MNRR waiting for Amtrak and the other way around. But even off-peak (weekends, nights, etc.) it seems as though AEs are always making diverging moves. I know that due to construction there are many places where one of four tracks is out of service.
re: AE diverging moves.
I recently changed jobs, and my new office overlooks the Greenwich MNRR station (yes, my productivity is way down -- not exactly the best way to start a new job!). On some days the two "express" tracks are both out of service, and the NYC bound AE will come through on the New Haven bound local track. That makes for some very surprised faces on the platform.
CG
Todd the Catenary only needs replacement New Haven to Stateline.
the Stateline to New Rochelle part was finished 6 years ago. and two tracks from Stateline to Stamford are completed.
Realignment of existing New Haven line is not in sight and not in planning.
priority?? why do a hand full of Amtrak passengers deserve priority over 600 or so passengers on Metro North train ???
as far as class of train the Acela is just another tube of Passengers on Metro North just like the Metro North trains.
if Amtrak can show up on time in New Haven or New Rochelle they get their slot, if not they can stay behind our passengers who have same right to speedy and ontime trains
It is nice when it works. I have taken it about 15 times and the one time we had a major breakdown (presumebly a cab signal failure), the customer service was at the level of the airlines. Overall, it is a nice train, although minor glitches still happen. The automated announcements still don't work, the bathroom doors sometimes still don't lock, seats don't recline, tray tables don't stay down, the footrests are just plain wierd, and we still have paper seat checks. Yes, this thing (see below) is susposed to replace paper seat checks somehow. The conductor would punch in your destination on a handheld device and they would communicate through IR. Overall, it is a nice train and better than flying.
There's a real nice break in the 3rd rail at the north end of the northbound express track at 72nd Street on the Broadway line.
3rd rail arcing
I'm looking for some more spots where you can get some intense arcs that can be easily photographed. If there are many of these places, perhaps we could have an 3rdrailarcfan Trip.
Are you serious?
Who in their right mind would go railfanning to see and take pictures of arcs?
What's wrong with that? With the right technique and good film, you can get a very impressive photo.
I like the picture he took (though it's too grainy).
Railfans are detail-oriented, and the interaction of train and third rail is an important detail.
What's wrong with that? I've got a better question: What's right with that?
Number one, I'm pretty sure one has better and more constructive things to do one's time other than going around taking photos of electric current blasting out of a third rail systemwide (or at least I would hope so).
Number two, you're not supposed to look directly into an arc. You could do permanent damage to your eyesight. I suppose looking at an arc with a zoom lens camera won't help things either.
I hope heypaul was just being comedic and not serious.
BMT Road Dogg stated: "I'm pretty sure one has better and more constructive things to do one's time other than going around taking photos of electric current blasting out of a third rail systemwide (or at least I would hope so)."
If he's saying that this isn't something that he would do, I understand. If he's saying that this isn't something that he would do and as a result this isn't something anyone should do, that would be another issue.
I am aware that it is not good to stare into an arc. I take video of the arc looking in the flip out screen on my camcorder.
If the arc light is a serious danger to people's vision, I suggest that the MTA put up welder's smoked glass around the arcing 3rd rails, along with signs warning customers not to stare into an arc.
Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! Author! Author!
avid
"Number one, I'm pretty sure one has better and more constructive things to do one's time other than going around taking photos of electric current blasting out of a third rail systemwide (or at least I would hope so)."
And how is riding the subway system all day long looking for a particular car number or looking out the front window of a train going up Central Park West for the 150th time any more or less constructive than admiring third-rail arcing? I'm not criticizing any of it, mind you; do whatevermakes you happy.
You make a good point about not staring directly at a welder's arc, but distance and time of exposure play a role in that. There is a reason why passersby are not made to wear a safety shield and the welder is. Heypaul's response is reasonable - he observes the arc indirectly and then shoots the photo.
Light (and its effects on people and objects) is fun to play with, especially with a camera and some good technique.
And then there's the electrical tekkies who sit out on the porch with a spritzer and a beer chaser next to them on a table to sit and take in the glory of a thunderstorm, especially at night. Anyone who's ever built a Tesla coil or maintained TV transmitters and watched the reject load fail can really appreciate bright sparks. Up here where I live, GE still loves to conduct light shows to dazzle the salesgeeks in the generator factory.
Power to be USED and not abused. :)
Here's a little story you might enjoy, since my own background in 5 megawatt ERP UHF TV transmitters, fed by 50,000 volts directly into the rectifier stacks at about 500 amps or so can REALLY put on a light show on the mountaintop when things go amiss. I'll detail my own little sidetrip into an obsession at Branford this past fall. :)
Now I normally work nights (am about to head to bed now) and Branford runs on a "normal hours" kinda thing, so I lost some sleep prior just trying to twirl around to "human hours" and the night before the mighty Arnine jaunt, I got maybe 3 hours sleep. I *need* 1/3 day for every 2/3 day worked, no matter how those hours work out. Thus, I twirl around the clock and sleep as needed. Branford day with the Arnine didn't work out well at all, so I was kinda stoned from lack of sleep when we got together for "crew call."
Now 1689, our beloved Arnine, needs to run in Connecticut where third rail is illegal. So, like all other subway cars in the fleet, 1689 is equipped with a trolley pole on the roof. It's done TASTEFULLY. VERY much so. So like any other "trolley car", it rolls down the line with the pole following the catenary BEHIND the car. When you get to the other end, you pull on a rope, pull down the pole, walk around the car and then put it BACK on the pole on the other end of the car which is now going to run back the other way, putting the pole in the rear again per custom. This is normally done with a "pole frog" or a bit of wire that leads away from the centerline of the catenary so you can turn the pole, and release it to grab some wire. Since it's not possible to hit the car's centerline, these "pole frogs" of wire are necessary in order to hit the power line for the trip back.
However, the morning of our escapade, there was a work car out on the far end of the line doing track work and thus 1689 had to stop short of the "pole frog" ... as a result, an abnormal operation mode known as "back-poling" was required. This means simply that the pole could not be turned around owing to the obstruction on the mainline, so the car ran backwards literally PUSHING the pole as Unca Lou relieved me on the outbound trip and took her back since he knows the various issues involved with backpoling for the couple of trips we had to do with the work equipment "out there." Any disturbance in the car's smooth movement could result in becoming "dewired" which isn't a good thing at all.
What's involved in "back poling" is that when you come upon a switch, the pole can't TRAIL the car and "pick" the correct wire for the routing. So very often, when you hit a switch, the car goes one way and the pole wants to go the OTHER way. Not good either.
So as Lou moved the car, I spotted the rope that connected to the carbon slider on the trolley pole (current collector for you TA folks) which of course was "hot" with subway-power on it (600 DC, googleplex amps, or a reasonable facismile of death-defying) ... when the pole "picked" wrong, I alerted Lou to "picked wrong!" whereupon, he'd stop 1689. My gig was to pull down the pole off the wire and then move it over to the CORRECT wire to bring us into the subway platform off the main line.
Gotta admit, I zoned out several times ... as I pulled the pole down, 1689 drew a NICE arc until it "broke," then I moved the pole over to the other wire (spotting as best I could above the car's roofline) to stop the pole from swaying, hoping to make a direct hit onto a thin piece of wire overhead. I *missed* several times, drawing MORE arcs, pulling away, trying again until the car lit up and the flame above extinguished once current was flowing properly again.
I can groove on Heypaul's obsession, I enjoyed that as one of many "this AIN'T the way TA does it" experiences at Branford ... and of course doing things the TA way much to the twitchiness of my benefactors at Branford who were too keenly aware that Arnines could INDEED do that ... but NOT HERE! Yipe! :)
But yeah, schpitzensparken can be great fun - especially when you know how to handle it safely and go for the flashing blue in style.
I don't remember if this happened Members' Day this year or New York Days last year... Lou and I were taking someone back to Farm River Rd on 1689 during some after-hours signal work, and the rope broke. It's pitch black outside, and *someone's grandson* had stolen my flashlight. We had to rewire reaching with a fiberglass pole with a hook on the end, with no other light to guide us, and every time the pole slipped out from that hook, it bounced around like a Super Pinky. The scene put John Gotti's Fourth of July show to shame.
Hahahaha ... yeah, that's EASY to picture. My sympathies to all. Yeah, that little puck can make a HELL of a light show. I saw all I saw (and enjoyed it) in broad DAYLIGHT ... well ... overcast, but it worked ... at NIGHT, that musta been "special."
I *like* Lou ... he likes my FAVORITE toy ... that's good enough for me. :)
Just a "streetcar" comment about back poling and overhead frogs:
A properly aligned frog will always direct a back poling pole to the straight side of the frog. If the pole takes the curve side, that's a sign the frog is mis-aligned.
Back-poling with wheels is somewhat easier than with shoes, due to propensity of shoes to hang up on ears, frogs and any dings in the wire.
Well, in this case, we needed to "pick" the diverging route so that means that as usual, Branford's facilities are properly maintained. And sorry to say, to a third rail type such as myself, that trolley pole is sacrilege for the R-9 car class, but then again, it's either a pole or a static display that'll never roll, so can't be too choosy there. But yeah, she kept picking straight ahead to the mainline even though we needed to leave it. No kinks, no drips, no errors. Just one VERY nice "blue light special." :)
I would have liked to get that on tape. I wonder if there would be a way to mount a video camera on the roof of the car and let it run for a trip. Any chance of doing a replay of those fireworks??
Kevin... I don't think I ever posted this picture here, but it is my 2nd favorite arc that I've ever seen. I went over to Pratt Institute's power and heating plant and had the good fortune of meeting Conrad Milster, the Chief Engineer. He gave me a tour of place. When I mentioned that I had once seen a GG1 throwing an arc up to the wire at Sunnyside Yards, he went over to the switch panel and opened a breaker. He has a DC generation plant there, which powers mostly the plant's lighting and some of the college elevators. Anyway, I had the camcorder on Conrad the whole tour, and I got a shot of the arc that looked like a flame, and even asked him to do it again. I froze this frame from the tape, and must admit that I chose the most eerie shot I could find.
DC Arc at Pratt Institute
If you've never been to the power plant at Pratt, it is well worth the visit. It's a trip back 100 years in time. Conrad is a really sweet guy who is a railfan as well as an expert on industrial archeology.
I remember seeing that, though it might have actually been a dub of the tape perhaps ... will need to go back and look. My own obsession with errant electrons is further bolstered by my property being right on the edge of the Marcy South transmission lines and their upstate local distribution chains. In addition, down at the BOTTOM of my hill is one of the hilltown's MAJOR substations ... so in all seriousness, all I need to do is put out a lawnchair to take it in without the need to travel. High on the hill to the west of us is all of the area's TV transmitters including a FOX and PBS affiliate who sacrifice their transmitters to the Gods of grounding on a regular basis.
You gotta get your butt UP here one of these days. :)
I hope to get up your way... You're living so close to power transmission lines is proof that they have no adverse effect on people's physical and mental health... On second thought, I'm beginning to wonder...
Heh. Well, for what it's worth, when I worked for the Public Shafting Commission (NYPSC) I was involved in one of THOSE studies as well. The politicos wanted a different result from reality of course. The same rules that apply to FM and TV transmitters apply to power lines as well - has to do with INVERSE LOG of "field intensity" ... or in other words, the HOUSE here is a sufficient distance from the power lines (about 40 feet) that the wiring INSIDE THE WALL has a GREATER field intensity than the lines themselves at the distance.
In other words, if you sleep against a wall with electrical wires inside, you'll get MORE radiation than we do from the power lines. A *LOT* more ... and while folks will flip out over power towers nearby, they think nothing of that extension cord to the alarm clock next to their bed. Carbon based lifeforms ARE zanier than a barrel of monkeys. :)
I suppose my fascination with arcs may have originated with the light shows that our government provided us in the 1950's.
The Ultimate Arc Which Will Bring Us All Home
Pictures of the hydrogen bomb detonations had a very powerful effect on us children of the 1950's. As frightening as they were, they were beautiful in an eerie way. This particular shot looks like the opening of the Honeymooners.
There's one of my statie brothers up here that you'll have to meet some day. With sufficient advance warning, I will try to arrange it for ya. His SPECIALTY with the NYPSC was "nuclear holocaust" and after nearly 20 years of "we all gonna die in a femtosecond if we don't duck and cover" has been brought back today with a VENGEANCE. I know it makes ME glad to be a republican. Gack. But this guy knows the inside of a nuclear holocaust and *ALL* of its science owing to his Air Force training and actual experience at Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory (GE) in Niskayuna and has a similar background to mine. When you go to THIS game level as I have, the trivialities of where the N train runs or what Keanu Reeves thinks just fade to oblivion.
Anyway, the company is located underground in a building I bought BECAUSE it was so ... "bomb shelter" in its design and location. Now that you've honored the mentality of the times (which have MAGICALLY been brought back full bore by a resident of the white horse who STILL doesn't get Korea because of his blind obsession ("they tried to kill my daddy"), we might just get nuked by China owing to the administration's utter cluelessness ... MAN, could I use a blowjob right now. :)
But yeah, we're definitely going RETRO ... all because INS was underfunded and lost some zany diaperheads, and now we gotta collectively go through THIS SHEET ...
Who in their right mind would go railfanning to see and take pictures of arcs?
I think you answered your own question; Paul is decidedly left-brained :).
Well, you're only wasting film to me but its your choice and I respect that. If you want a intense arc go to 14 St on the Lex Av line that would be real nice :-\.
I think the best place to watch arcing is around the Jamaica Yard leads as it goes over the Van Wyck. The arc itself isn't much to look at. But watching the sky light up looks interesting to me.
Southbound West End Line trains at the junction at 36th/4th Avenue.
>>> 'm looking for some more spots where you can get some intense arcs that can be easily photographed. <<<
Not a bad idea if you are serious about it (your sense of humor makes me doubt that you are), but it will take much more specialized equipment and film than you used in the attached photo to get the actual arcs on film.
Tom
Hate to break the news, but that zone was originally used by Dr. Emmett L. 'Doc' Brown (of "Back to the Future" fame) to develop his time-travelling DeLorean. During testing, the transit authority discovered the durability of stainless steel construction, and despite all the mechanical problems with the DeLorean on the express tracks, went ahead and ordered the 142's anyway.
Alas, Doc Brown never did achieve time travel down there owing to the timers, but the gap was kept just in case the DeLorean accidentally returned from the past or the future and required the application of one point twenty-one gigawatts without making the railroad lay down. Apparently you JUST missed the DeLorean, based on the intensity of the time travel initiation. :)
Remember, the one point twenty-one gigawatts are delivered by TROLLEY POLE. Check BTTF for proff.
Won't work with third rail. Gotta have OVERHEAD!!!!!!
Heh. Now you see the reason for the schpitzensparken mit poppencorken und fusenblowen. But even worse than lacking a roof kit, they just couldn't get the damned car up to 87 MPH before ramming the 3 train ahead of it. :)
Let's see. A couple of people questioned an interest in arcs. I have always found them to be frightening and yet intensely beauiful.
I went back to 72nd Street this afternoon. I'm using a SONY non digital camcorder, so i am not really wasting film.
Anyway, I took some more shots with the exposure much lower, so that the intense light would not immediately cause a white-out condition.
Here's a shot:
3rd rail arcing
The white image in the middle of the arc reminded me of an old Outer Limits episode where an ameoba like energy field created havoc at a research station.
outer limits energy field
The Outer Limits shot looks very much like noxious vapors entering a transverse cab where the offside window was accidentally left down. After the GOH in a few years, train operators can be expected to sit at a wooden desk with a quill pen in hand ready to troubleshoot the car that's unwilling to please the indication fairy. I see possibilities here and a glimpse into the future. Without benefit of a DeLorean. WELL DONE! :)
>>> I took some more shots with the exposure much lower
You are going to need various filters to reduce the various wavelengths of light to get really interesting pictures. Try filtering out the reds and yellows with a blue filter.
Tom
Try railfanning at night during a thunderstorm. I did that this past summer on the IRT Broadway Line in the Bronx. Quite a light show!
--Mark
Hit the lights!
I'd do that on a 1 train sans interior lights.
exiting the South Ferry outer loop. I should have an arc photo on my website that I took there of a redbird #5 train exiting the loop on a G.O.
Arc de Triomphe!
Proof of heypauls expertice de arc!
GO TO the archives , # 114786 "A Strange Dream"
avid
Are there any sites which have moody shots of the interior of Stillwell Terminal? The more depressing and dimly lit the better.
Okay, now you're starting to really scare me.
Paul, I think any photo of Stillwell from the last few decades fits those criteria... I have a couple here
Mike... Yesterday I found your page of pictures of Stillwell terminal and the Thunderbolt. I posted links to both pages over at the Yahoo Coney Island group. Did you shoot the Thunderboltl pictures??
Paul, I have a bunch of photos too if you are interested.
Go to my website, click stations, then large complexes and then Stillwell Ave.
-Harry
Probably not moody and depressing enough. : )
The Thunderbolt photos are all mine (except the postcard image, of course). For whatever reason, several other scavengers thought I was a reporter; one man there with his 75-year-old mother even insisted a take a photo of her in front of the "THUNDE" sign for my "article."
"I have a couple here"
Link doesn't work.
Geocities won't let you remote link. I pulled up his link in "view source".
Try cut and paste:
www.geocities.com/ripta98/stillwell
No, that's not why. He forgot to put the http:// into his link. The browser processed his link as "http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/www.geocities.com/ripta98/stillwell."
Whoops.
corrected link
I hadn't seen a yellow S (yellow bullet, black S) before taking a shuttle between Rockaway Blvd and Beach 67th on Thursday. Looked like an R44. Most of the S's I've seen on the Franklin or Times Square have been a black bullet with a white S. Anyone else encountered a yellow S before?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now that you mention it, I've also seen it for the Rockaway Shuttle. Perhaps there are also red, green, yellow, orange and other colored S signs tucked away in the roll signs.
The Grand Street Shuttle should be using an orange "S."
David
I'm not saying that all trains have the various colored S signs. I think they're out there but the trains are not running where they were originally planned to. And trains bought at different times were supposed to run to different places.
The multi-colored "S" designations predate the current system of coloring routes based on the Manhattan mainline. They were from the 1960s system of having a discrete color for each route, including shuttles, with some duplication.
Nope, since they combined the two into one shuttle from Grand to W 4 St, they favored the black S bullet. But I'm sure you guys remember the orange S that ran from 2 Av to 21 St before the connector finally came into use and was no longer needed [it still may pop up once in a while if there's a GO where F's are diverted to 53 St weekends].
It has always been black on the map...
I found this on 7/22/01 at Broadway-Laf:
It was corrected to gray within a few days.
I've seen orange S's
Oh, that's not the one you had in mind?
LOL, no not exactly. It even looks like they left it upside down!
Only colors that I believe they have are black, yellow, and orange. The Rockaway shuttle uses black. The yellow S was used by the 63rd Street shuttle when they were redoing the trackbed several years back.
I'm sure there are other S signs in other colors. It's just that very rarely does anyone ever see all of the destinations and letters in the various roll signs.
Well, there definately isn't green or red. The IRT cars only have the one black S. When R62As and Redbirds ran the Dyre and Pelham shuttles, they used the black Ss.
I think some classes of cars have "shuttle" written out on the fron rollsigns. I could swear I've seen that on the M lineway beack when. I guess it would have been on the R42's or R40(M)'s
They all have it along with "Not In Service".
But for something out of the ordinary, does anyone remember the ones on the slant 40's that had these words encased in a gray circle bullet?
I think the R40M's/R42's still have them to this day. Also, most rollsigns have "Special" on them.
The 63rd St. Shuttle from before the Manhattan Bridge swap had a yellow "S", but those were on the R-32's.
When Queensbridge was a terminus, there were various GOs during which the 6th Ave train (B or F) didn't go there. Instead, there was a Yellow S either to 57th and 7th or to Herald Square via the BMT tracks.
Yes, when 21 St was a terminal and B's and Q's didn't go there [they went to 57 St/6 Av all tmes they ran there] b/c of defects. They created a special yellow S that ran from 57 St/7 Av to 21 St using the 63 St connector via Broadway line then it got extended to 34 St using the middle tracks. Only 10 car R32's ever ran on it AFAIK, man it was cool when it used to fly by 49 St on a R32, every time I rode it I always got the railfan window.
I thought the official color for the Rockaway Shuttle was a White "S"
with white letter "S." Can anyone tell me if that's what color the
symbol usually is?
On the subway map, the Rockaway shuttle is a blue bullet white S but in reality there is no blue S on rollsigns, it uses the black S like the Franklin, Grand & 42 St shuttles. So the black bullet with a white 'S' is the offcial symbol.
On the subway map, the Rockaway shuttle is a blue bullet white S but in reality there is no blue S on rollsigns, it uses the black S like the Franklin, Grand & 42 St shuttles. So the black bullet with a white 'S' is the offcial symbol.
I have no idea why it is blue on the map. It goes nowhere near 8th Avenue! It should be black or dark grey like the rest of the shuttles.
:-) Andrew
It serves as a shuttle for the 8th Avenue Line. Black shuttles are for those that connect trunk lines. Grand Street is an exception since it was implemented when the S also came into being, so it got black and it stuck.
I guess they didn't want to 'discriminate' on the blue line and they wanted to make it look unified :-).
Plus Black (S) and Blue <A> would look unnecessarily fussy on the map.
I know, it would look rather weird on the timetable and on the map with a black S for the Rockaway shuttle. They do show the on the subway map but it doesn't really have to be on rollsigns.
The GO due to platform work at Howard Beach-JFK has resulted in a "shuttle" service between 96th-Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue. On my Dec.21 trip I saw one R44 signed as "A" and a gaggle of Pitkin Yard R32s signed up in various ways - some were "A", some were "S" and one was "H" (with "S" at the opposite end).
wayne
You can tell what they were intended for by looking at the R-32 side signs which include the route.
was designed for the 63rd. St-Bway shuttle, which it was used for a few years ago.
was designed for the 63rd. St-6th Av shuttle, which it was used for, and the current Grand St. shuttle used black/gray to distinguish it from 21St. St, and has remained black even though the other one is gone.
is really for the Franklin Shuttle, but it did come to be used for any shuttle that didn't have its own designation such as Grand St. and also Rockaway Park (as there was no blue S on the existing rollsigns)
is on the newest signs being installed, but I don't know if any of these have been installed into the R-44's yet. So Gray or the word "Shuttle" is still used.
There are no lime green or brown "S"s. The Essex St. shuttle that ran when the Williamsburg Br. was closed used gray.
Alot of these appearances of the wrong color are from crews stopping at the first "S" they come across, figuring "close enough" or not remembereing where the right one is on the sign.
That yellow S was the 63rd St. Shuttle off Broadway back in 1998. All car fleets have an orange, grey, and yellow S in its rollsigns.
Didn't the shuttle that ran between 57th / 7th Ave (a few weeks later it was extended to Times Square) and 21st St / Queensbridge use the yellow "S" when the roadbed of the 63rd St line was being redone a few years ago?
--Mark
Actually it was extended to 34 St/Herald Sq and used a few sets of R32's and yes it had the yellow S on rollsigns.
As long as I can remember, weekend service on the #7 has been interrupted between Times Sq and Queensboro for 'trackwork.' Is this permanent maintenace work that has to be done, or will it eventually be finished?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It has been going on for (almost) over a year. I think it would continue indefinitely.
I was on a W yesterday around 5:30 Queens bound. When we get to Times Square, there must not have been a W for awhile, because over 25 people boarded the car in each available door. (No #7 to Queens either) Too crowded so I got out at 49th and waited for the next W. Sure enough, a mostly empty W showed up about 2 minutes later.
Is it true that most NYC subway riders are impervious to crowding and given a choice between a crushing crowd and arriving at your destination a little late, would choose the former? I choose a less crowded car every time. That's part of the reason why I don't understand the V train furor. If I were a commuter in that part of town, I'd give myself a little more time in the morning and use the underutilized V.
Then again...the usual trainman's announcement that 'there's a train right behind this one'...is, well, sometimes erroneous.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think customers would rather try to enter a crowded subway car as opposed to waiting for a next train which might be in 2 or 20 minutes and perhaps that train is crowded as well.
Most times when a train is running late and there isn't an option for trains to be rerouted, the message about "another train behind us" is probably true.
There's no guarantee that the train behind it isn't just as crowded.
Of course there is never a guarantee. But generally except for rush hour a train behind a late train is usually not that crowded. No empty. But you should be able to get on that train.
what about subway pax who feel the need to carry tubas, dogs, llamas, TVs, sleeping bags and other grossly large items with them at rush hour!
The people on the train should tell the pax what they think!
Sometimes they DO...in most colorful language!
And their physical body english is sometimes very amusing.
what about subway pax who feel the need to carry tubas, dogs, llamas, TVs, sleeping bags and other grossly large items with them at rush hour!
Then again...the usual trainman's announcement that 'there's a train right behind this one'...is, well, sometimes erroneous.
Well, some conductors are just pricks :-)
First that announcement should not be even made, its against the rules. But we've all done it.
The only time I ever did however is when I saw the sealed beams from the 'train right behind this one' glaring down on us. Otherwise I had no basis for doing so. Making that announcement with no train behind (verified) is always asking for a customer to call in and complain.
"First that announcement should not be even made, its against the rules."
Glad to hear that. If a C/R makes that announcement and it's not true, it reinforces the impression (held by many New Yorkers who have been lied to too often) that NYCT is staffed by a bunch of completely untrustworthy people.
If NYCT employees make things up just to get people moving, then no one believes them when they are telling the truth (as in "This train will terminate at xxx.")
The only time I make that annoucement is..........
.........when theres a train directly behind and I see headlights.
How do you know it's in service and it's making the exact same stops as your train?
Generally, I guess most New Yorkers are impatient. That's what living in a hectic city can do to a person. :)
The thing about NYC passengers is that some of them are express crazy meaning they go all out to board a express even if there is no room left they won't want to wait for the next one [evident on the Queens Blvd and Lexington lines the most]. I don't know why so many passengers show so much hatred toward the V it only adds a couple of minutes to the commute but its almost a guarantee you'll get a seat and IMO the QB express is way overrated; you could disagree with this comment I don't care that's what I think. The Broadway line [all 3 lines Q, R & W] needs a increase in weekend service, especially the locals. I rode the Q yesterday from 34 St to Brooklyn and we passed 2 W's and they run every 8-10 minutes. The local stations are ACTUALLY underserved and the local platforms get packed rather quickly so the R & W needs a spike in weekend service.
When I ride the Queens bound R to Queens Plaza everybody gets off to board the E across the plat. The E then proceeds about 800' and STOPS to let 63 St. tunnel F's cross in front of them. Meanwhile I stay on the R, pass the stopped E, and get to Roosevelt Avenue sooner! Plus I get a seat (when I don't feel like being "second motorman").
That's not uncommon on the Queens Blvd lines. This is evident on the Q at Church Av too toward Manhattan, people get off the local, give up their seat & get into the express hoping to skip Parkside Av only to find out the express gets stuck in btw bypassing Parkside & Prospect Park to let Q locals switch in front of them, wiping out all the time they may have saved riding the express.
don't forget squeezing in the packed 4 train allows you to skip 138 St-GC while the 5 has to stop there
"The local stations are ACTUALLY underserved and the local platforms get packed rather quickly so the R & W needs a spike in weekend service."
The R and W trains provide 15 trains per hour together on the weekends. That should be ample, except for the fact that they often bunch up, so you get 2 trains right after each other, and then none for a long time.
The basic mindset is as follows:
1. EVERY train is the last train that will ever move, so I must get on it at all costs - but then it must not wait for anybody else.
2. There can't possibly be a "train right behind this one" because this train is the last train that will ever move.
3. The "train right behind this one" is irrelevant (even if it's readily visible), because the next train still isn't this one.
4. Everybody else is supposed to allow a little more time and take (or stay on) the local, so I can have the express to myself. Why do't they realize that they owe me this?
It's a little like my 3-year old nephew, who, when he rides, says, "this is MY TRAIN! Can't they see that! Why are all those people getting on MY TRAIN, Uncle? Don't they know this is MY TRAIN?" :-)
>>>It's a little like my 3-year old nephew, who, when he rides, says, "this is MY TRAIN! Can't they see that! Why are all those people getting on MY TRAIN, Uncle?
Don't they know this is MY TRAIN?" :-) <<<
Well, I'm kinda like that with elevators. The purpose of an elevator where I work is to get me to the 17th flloor, where the office is located. Problem is, people keep getting on and pushing all the other buttons! The nerve.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would like to ride a double-deck elevator.
I know some people don't like it, but I would think that it would be faster.
I myself have been guilty of crushing aboard the next train rather than waiting for an uncrowded following train. You just never know when the next one will be arriving.
If I've actually been waiting on the platform for 25 minutes, I'm very likely to try to get on the first train that comes. After all, even if I've left myself 10 minutes of extra time, I'm now 15 minutes late. Also, the longer the delay, the more likely the second train is to be packed as well. These ain't busses. First to leave the station is going to be the first to arrive at the destination.
On the other hand, if I've just arrived to find hundreds of people on the platform and a scene that looks like there hasn't been a train in 25 minutes -- in that case I'll almost always wait for a second train (and if it looks like a big backup, maybe even a third).
As for NYer's not caring about crowding, I think that - for the most part - we expect to stand on the subway, especially in Manhattan or in the peak direction in the outer boroughs. It's only the absolutely packed trains that will cause anyone to wait for the next train.
CG
>>>As for NYer's not caring about crowding, I think that - for the most part - we expect to stand on the subway, especially in Manhattan or in the peak direction
in the outer boroughs. It's only the absolutely packed trains that will cause anyone to wait for the next train. <<<
I have a completely different attitude. I have been known to let 6 or 7 trains pass if they are too crowded for my taste. In Saturday's case, the W train I was on was mostly empty since i got on it at 36th St Brooklyn. When the hordes invaded, i got off and sure enough, the next train was empty. I think people are too much like sheep and accept crowding needlessly.
I also pass up elevators if there is too much crowding. I need space...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Mr Walsh your a very smart man to wait for a less crowded train.
I,ve often wondered on my rush hour run through the 60st tunnel when the train is packed tight.How the heck i would get to the e.b.v. if someone pulled it!!!!!
I will gladly let a crowded train go if I know that (a) there's another train shortly behind it, (b) that train is less crowded than the one in the station right now, and (c) that train won't bypass my station because it's running late.
Since I don't know that, I invariably push and squeeze onto the first train. I've been burned by all three caveats and I'd rather be smushed than be burned again.
The local-express issue is entirely different. Many subway riders, on IND lines especially, overestimate (by a factor of 2 or more, it seems) how much time the express saves. Unless I can use the express for more than a few miles, I usually stay on the local if my local doesn't meet an express at the transfer point.
The two problems have one common solution: a system that gives passengers reliable information about how far away approaching trains are.
Indeed.
I have validated your approach for myself many times on the Broad Street Line in Philly. I got on the first train to arrive. Out of 7 local trips where I was actually paying attention, my local train got me to my destination well ahead of the next express 4 times, got there dead even with the express twice, and was overtaken, non-trivially, by the express once. Where the express arrived first, it generally got me to my destination well ahead of the local (although there were occasions when people rushing to crowd into the express introduced delays that a local train would not see).
Are "The Maps" at the GCT Museum store for free or on sale?
I've been tempted to pick one up, but haven't, because i want to spare myself the embarrassment of being stopped by a guard thinking I was a shoplifter. They're free at token booths, no?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The maps are also free at the token booths. But not all booths have the new maps. Sometimes the token booths have also run out of maps.
Kevin,
The Map is free (even at the TM store).
You will find them in a display rack to the right after you enter the store.
LOL, I feel the same way when I want to take a map at the GCT TM shop. I always feel they are going to think I am a shoplifter. But yes, they are free. I always tell myself that when I grab one there.
How difficult would it be for the TM staff to put up a "Free - Take One" sign?
How difficult would it be for a member of the public to grab the entire bunch?
Who would want more than one or two than other than a railfan, and eeven then who would take the whole bunch?
I've been tempted.
I've taken entire stacks (i.e., dozens) of outdated maps and schedules from the racks at Howard Beach. I don't like to deplete the supply of current information, and the TM store is usually up-to-date, so I only take a few when I'm there.
Not too hard, if you are discreet about it.
I got 8 at one time.
"Not too hard, if you are discreet about it.
I got 8 at one time."
That's nothing, about ten years ago, I went to Wendy's with a friend of mine for lunch. After we got our food, we headed over to the condiments bar. With one swipe, he scooped up a handfull of Sweet-N-Lows. Afterwards, he counted FIFTY packets. And doesn't have big hands either !
Bill "Newkirk"
Tee grand daddy of all places to get huge amounts of maps with no guilt is the Howard Beach station on the A. Tons of free maps, all free for the taking. But even when i go to the TM store at GCT, I fake interest in aome of the for-sale items for about two minutes, then I go look and see what posters they have for sale, then I mosey on over to the free maps, grab 2 of each of what I want, then walk out. It is quite satisfying.
---Brian
But even when i go to the TM store at GCT, I fake interest in aome of the for-sale items for about two minutes, then I go look and see what posters they have for sale, then I mosey on over to the free maps, grab 2 of each of what I want, then walk out. It is quite satisfying.
I've done the same thing on occasion. Even if I'd just been in the store recently, I'll look around a bit and then grab the maps. It's better than just walking in, grabbing maps, and walking out. Although, it's always nice to see if any new books came out.
Penn Station used to be a really good place to get maps years ago. They used to have them right with the LIRR schedules. I used to grap them by the handful, for me and a friend or two that used to want them. They don't have them there like that anymore though AFAIK. Token Clerks will usually only give you one. The other day I was determined to get the Languages September 2002 one (which I didn't get yet) before the new January one came out, so I used my Fun Pass and kept getting on and off until I got one.
Dudes, getting a map from the GCT Store isn't like
picking up a PENTHOUSE from the bodega.............or is it?
Have no shame.
I usually hit the map rack FIRST... this way the security
bloke sees I have something in hand (which shows I'm already
interested in something from there) and then I daddle around
the number plates/hats sections long enough to demonstrate
a public interest in subway signs (which they caught me looking
one time and led to them bringing out MORE signs that same minute
thinking I was a potential buyer!!!!!!)....
I tend to not be asked if I need help with something when
they see I already HAVE a store object in hand...
Whereas, when I DON'T have a Map in hand, I am surely asked
if I need help........ (which someday we all will!!) LOL.
(FYI I picked up TWO r22 and r28 numberplates that day)
Train Dude and others "in the know" here:
Does MTA have any provision for issuing photo ID cards or badges to its employees? Bus drivers have numbered badges which they clip onto the shoulders of their uniforms. Do rail employees have that Are there photo ID's to go with that?
There are places of work (for example, secure settings such as govt. labs, govt offices, defense contractors, military bases) where employees are asked to challenge anyone walking around without a photo ID, or with a photo ID that looks like it doesn't "belong."
That might help the "intruder" situation at MTA, concerning people like McCollum, Brown, or even just petty thieves who enter those facilities.
Is the problem serious enough to warrant a response like that? Or would the cost of implementing it exceed the cost of tolerating the current situation and dealing with intruders on a case-by-case basis?
Every NYCT employee, regardless of title, has a photo ID. Further, every NYCT employee must conspicuously wear that ID while on the property and on duty. The breakdown comes when dispatchers & others see people hanging out in crew rooms, without ID, and no one challanges them.
OK. So we have a reasonable procedure for dealing with the McCollums and Browns of the world - we're just not using it.
Sometimes we let our guard down. It isn't right. We shouldn't do it. But it does happen.
While Brown was an intruder who stole from employee lockers, that's not a typical sort of theft. Usually, when things are stolen from a workplace, whether company property or things belonging to employees, it's usually another employee who's responsible.
It depends on what location you are talking about. If you've worked for me for 1 day or 15 years you know that you wear your photo ID on the property. When i have a visitor, no one can get onto the property unless i have them escorted from the guard booth. Station locations are a bit more vulnerable as they are in closer proximity to public access areas.
Once upon a time, when I was still a kid, so figure early 60s I went to Coney Island, and went up to the cross-over on the north end of the patforms, IIRC it was open to the public to change platforms without walking to the south end.
It seems to me that there were crew rooms on the north side of that passageway, even including a gedunk (snack bar) that seemed to be open to the public, but was mostly used by the train crews to grab a dog and a pop before the next run. It seemed to me that the door to the crewroom was wide open and anybody *could* have walked in.
Clearly all of this will be changed with the advent of a new station, and undoubtedly better crew security will be built into whatever they build. Does my mind play tricks with me, or does anybody recall this as I have described it?
Elias
there is a cross-over, and the crew room door is connected to the crossover. As for the snack bar, I don't remember that.
yea hes right. At Metro North, sometimes No one challenges me when i do certain things in the railroad. But in Metro North the system is different. our photo ID color changes every year, so no one really asks to see it as long as it conforms with the color of the year. but i have seen co workers of mine walking around with pink id cards from 1996!!!! that system is sorta dangerous, but so far it hasnt failed metro north. the best part is, i can step on the trains without having to show my ID. they see that the card is green for 2002, and they wave hello, as i sit down. and they never bother me again. Next year the color is light blue, just like the background when u postin a message. n e ways, what do u guys think of the MNRR security system? it usually works
Truthfully I never wore mine.
The holder I was issued fell off my vest before I got a chance to use it. Wearing one something around my neck is also a no-no. If I am not supposed to wear a key chain for saftey reasons I am not going to wear something around my neck. My employee ID is also my Metrocard pass so if lost, it is considered a very big deal so why am I going to risk letting it fall off?
Shortly after 9/11, a Bulletin was issued that said we were to wear our photo IDs in a holder issued to us by our department. We in RTO are still waiting. (along with the mandatory safety gloves that have been required since early October this year)
Do you have the number on the Safety glove bulletin? I want the split leather ones but my TSS denies such a bulletin exists. I need the # and the part number if you have it.
MTA does issue photo ID cards to all its employees. They are called EPIC passes. And some titles also issue badges. Some people wear them in a holder worn around their necks.
The best way to detect intruders is for employees to question those who they don't know. They might PO some high ranking officials and beakies or people from the papers working on a story about lax security. But better that than an actual intruder actually doing something.
Dear SubTalk fans,
Although everyone here has always been very kind and helpful to me,
I'd like to say that some seem to use this board as a place to vent
their anger at the world, and it's not good.
We all have something in common. There is just no need for the nastiness. Disagreements are inevitable, but the tone should stay
friendly, I think. These are not usually life or death issues. Everyone has an ego. Don't be thin-skinned or try to get under someone else's. Can't we all just get along? I think the ultimate
punishment for someone who is out of line here is for them to get no response at all, since that seems to be what they most crave.
Happy New Year to all!
Subwaygrrl
Well, I joined Subtalk in 1997-1998, so I am a subtalk veteran, and the place surely changed, when first it was pure subways, manhattan bridge talk was the #1 issue, and the mosts posts was 35. Now 150-200 posts are common, and issues do get heated. Things change as more and more people join and they bring with them their own beliefs and ideals. Personally I love to talk about subways, only subways, and issues that deal directly with subways. I personally dun read personal posts about death, are when the post gets flamed, I aviod it too. It has changed, it has gone up and it has gone down. I noticed that people are also a little disrespectful, because we have new people who want to learn and may post something that some might think is dumb, but instead of helping, we knock the person down and make fun of them in some way shape of form. I was 12 when I first joined subtalk, and now I am 17, and the fact of the matter is that some of the adults do act worse then 5 year olds, and they neglect the fact that their are kids who are teenagers or 10 year old subway fans who read this site too, but if they dont realize that, then that might drive possible subway fans away from it with all the cursing and hard flaming that happens at times.
Subway grrl, I agree with everything you said and it must stop however, can't get rid of emotions of some people and the anger/disagreements DO get out of hand and sometimes gets personal. Its OK to criticize and disagree on certain issues but its NOT OK when it becomes personal and you're getting people angry over foolishness. I understand you want a friendly atmosphetre but if you are too friendly people will jump all over you and BTW its just the Internet & I bet half of these people aren't as volatile and tough as you think they are. The anger make it interesting but the other posters should know their limits so I wouldn't really look forward to a friendly atmosphere, unfortunately.
I don't think people that talk tough on-line are tough. I think they are people who think it's cool to talk tough on-line. Big difference!
My "religion" is the Golden Rule. I don't think it could ever be risky to be nice here. A nearly empty subway station at night...now that's a different story.
Yeah, you're right it is a difference, their bloated egos make them think they are cool which in reality it is NOT. Believe me being TOO nice all or most of the time is risky here, people do and will jump all over you and they don't realize that there are teens and younger kids who see this foolishness and then get turned away & end up going to other boards like the RiderDiaries (which I wouldn't join)[even some adults get turned away]. But at a empty subway station; well at a subway station in general you always have to be on the defensive.
"Believe me being TOO nice all or most of the time is risky here"
I try never to insult anyone here no matter how dumb I think their idea is, and I've rarely gotten insulted back.
Me too, hurling insults at one another only brings down the integrity of this board & makes all of us look bad. I was never really insulted here myself b/c I try not to insult others even if a thread sounds idiotic.
Sometimes it is good to vent your anger a little. Many of us are TA employees and we know some of the things that go on. Then someone else comes in and thinks we're wrong. I don't mind someone disagreeing with what I've said. Just don't make it personal. We all get carried away sometimes. Most times we edit it before we press the "Post Message" button.
I totally agree. I have seen threads on here that degenerate into the worse of the worse, which is really quite unfortunate. Swearing, personal attacks, oh boy.. :( The most ironic thing that I find that is that they accomplish nothing by doing so. Besides, you or I impress no one with such a stunt.
I'm sure we are all adults, but you have to remember: This board involves the NYC Subway... There's bound to be genuine New York Attitude! :P
A very nice post.
All of us get emotional to some degree at one time or another, and all of us (myself included) have "crossed a line" at one time or another.
Don't take Subtalk too seriously. It's a wonderful board where you can learn (and teach) a lot of things transit-related. I've learned a lot about physics, esp. electricity, here, about politics, about New York etc. But it can also be a game, and when the game gets too heated, people can take offense.
A few rules I try to follow (but have been human, not perfect, about following them).
-Respect and dignity first
-Criticism directed at ideas or actions, not people (ie I can respect a drunkard as a person but criticize the drinking, etc.)
-Try to figure out where "tongue-in-cheek" happens (I get tripped up, because email and message boards are devoid of facial expressions, tones of voice, and other cues that I like to have)
-Anything on Subtalk stays on Subtalk (meaning a passionate argument happening on the board stays on the board. Before you use Email and other off-line communication modes, the boxing gloves are put away for another time).
(I've occasionally exchanged barbs with people on the board, it's true; but were I to meet them in person the first beer or root beer would be on me. No exceptions!)
The only time I've ever been concerned was when one poster actually decided to make what I thought was a credible threat of physical violence against another poster. Dave Pirmann removed him from the board.
Those rules...
That's my Ronnie!
The tone was ugly here to a point that Dave Pirmann had to cut out Subtalk for a while. I feel since that matter occurred, the tone has lightened a little. This is a place for real railbuffs to chat, rather than the nasty ones. Hey, any words for the yellow Q yet as to when it will be made?
I've been discussing having a contest, together with the NY Transit Museum, where people can vote for the next two train shirts to be done! The contest would be announced on the "car cards" inside the trains, and you could vote on-line or at the Museum stores. Would that be cool? Then I'd know which trains are likely to sell. Believe me, some of them are duds at the cash register!
Hope to do this in 2003.
Well upon talking to some of my friends who sadly do graffiti, I found how much they know about the subway, they know the yard locations, car numbers, they have journals full of car types and their adjacent car numbers. I was shocked; they have drawn in track maps. One person explained to me that their love for the subways is one that when they tag it, its like being apart of their love. Which is strange, but they all love the subways, though they disrespect it and I tell them often that they shouldn’t, but their knowledge is amazing. Well so do you think that all, some, of a few subway graffiti artists are subway fans? Some might be bigger then us in my opinion.
Wow, this is a really good debate, Chris. I think more graffiti artists love the subways than we think and therefore probably have greater knowledge. I also think that it is rather strange b/c if they do throw ups in the subways disrespecting it, how do you love it but if the knowledge is there, then why do they have to tag up the walls and in the tunnels. Besides, they are going to move on eventually from doing graffiti anyway.
I think they are vandals. They keep records because they have big egos and want evidence of what they can get away with.
If it were up to me they would be wearing their own art in hard to remove paint.
In other words, they may have knowledge and would move on from graffiti anyway but they are NOT true railfans since they would be AGAINST vandalizing the system.
My answer is blunt. No.
Despite their knowledge of the system, if they were truly fans of it, they would do everything they could to keep it in good maintenance.
They may be subway fans, but in a bad context.
Oddly enough, their is real nostalgia for the graffiti-ed trains. It is considered both an "outsider art" form, as well as a sign of the kind of rebellion and lawlessness for which NYC is famous. The style influenced lots of tee shirt graphics, as well as some very upscale accessories. Fashion is strange, but alway seems to applaud the bad boy or bad girl.
I can't tell you how many folks have suggested I use graffiti images on my tee shirts. The MTA would definitely not approve those designs!
What I always hated about it was the way we were held captive to peoples' self-expression while just riding the trains. I prefer a "blank slate" for my own thoughts.
A "blank slate" actually DID exist on NYC subway cars beginning in 1981 when some rocket scientist at TA management decided to have cars on the IRT painted WHITE! Talk about a blank canvas! This went on into 1984, when the "Redbird" scheme began to appear on the 7 line as the "Silver Fox" color scheme.
The "rocket scientist" was Mayor Koch, who persuaded TA management to do it. It worked pretty well on the Flushing Line as long as the attack dogs ran between the double fences at Corona Yard.
David
It may have reduced graffiti on the 7 but on the other IRT lines it was WORST than when they had 'brutally' tagged the cars with the hideous MTA blue stripe scheme. The worst idea they ever came up with didn't they know a all white [ghost] car would be even more attractive to graf artists :-\.
[One person explained to me that their love for the subways is one that when they tag it, its like being a part of their love.]
We're supposed to believe that defacing, damaging, and otherwise vandalizing property is an act of "love"?
Umm.... No. "Tagging" exhibits nothing more than complete contempt for both the subway system and the riding public.
"...its like being a part of their love"
Strange love!
I kind of have to step in here a moment. I have true love and respect for our dear subway system. In the past, I was part of the subway graffiti faze, but did descent artwork, not just scrawling my name on a subway car. Unlike other graffiti buffs, I did not keep a log of the cars I used as a canvas.
Many people believe that graffiti is just paint splattered or sprayed messes on a wall. However, it is a part of NYC culture. If it wasn't for this time period in NYC, the Hip Hop culture would have never been born.
Graffiti, like Hip Hop, is about expression.
Nowadays, as I have mentioned in an earlier post some time ago, my graffiti is now only on a canvas, not subway cars or station walls.
I recommend that if you really want to learn about subway graffiti, you should sit down and see the movie "Wild Style". You will view this topic differently once you see this movie. As a note, the movie "Beat Street" is not true to this topic. It is mainly Hollywood and does not teach the true aspect and meaning to the Hip Hop culture.
Grafitti placed on any "canvas" without permission is vandalism. Plain and simple.
These "taggers" are no more "subway buffs" that that guy just re-arrested for impersonating a train operator.
--Mark
It's not always vandalism, sometimes the item being tagged deserves to be tagged.
Once I used a pen to deface a sticker on the subway. Since the sticker itself was pasted over an ad, I figured it was already vandalism, I was only "fixing" it, like when Emperor Justinian of the Byzantine Empire invaded Italy and expelled the Vandals.
BTW, the ad was for MVMs, the sticker asked: "These machines remove jobs, is this a good thing?" I wrote down the answer: "Yes!" I didn't stray from the sticker.
With all that's being said about bringing more subway/commuter rail access to Lower Manhattan post 9/11, why not this: Using the original track connections from Contract One at the IRT/LIRR Atlantic Avenue station, operate 2 or 4 service to Jamaica, Queens. Using trackage rights or an outright conversion, instead of bringing LIRR into the IRT's tunnels (a major rolling stock order of 8'9", 51'6" cars) let the subway go out to Queens. Restore the stop at Woodhaven/Atlantic Ave., and this would alleviate crowding at Atlantic Avenue, bring more transit options into Queens (a connector with possible SE Queens lines!) and free transfers with the Eastern Division at both Sutphin Blvd. and Atlantic/ Van Sinderen! Let me know what all of you think!
If the LIRR tracks from Brooklyn to Jamaica are converted into subway tracks, they should be B division tracks. B division trains can carry 50% more people.
Sorry, that's 33% more people.
OK I can agree with that, but where to make track connections: off the 4th Avenue line or off the Brighton Line?
ALL OF THOSE TUNNELS ARE ALREADY FULL AND CANNOT TAKE MORE TRAFFICK!
: ) Elias
There's plenty of capacity in the Southern Division:
6 tracks: capacity 90tph - utilisation 44tph (7 M, 6 N, 8 Q, 8 diamond-Q, 8 R, 7 W) - spare: 46tph
Put another way:
Brighton 16tph (8 Q, 8 diamond-Q), 14tph free
4th Express* 7tph (7 W), 23tph free
4th Local* 21tph (7 M, 6 N, 8 R), 9tph free
* measured North of Pacific St switches
There is enough spare capacity for all 4th Avenue service to be switched to "local" and the entire 30tph of the 4th Avenue express tracks to be connected to the LIRR.
I do not see this happening. The LIRR has a lot of revenue here to loose. Besides I beleive you would have a diffcult time fitting a subway line into jamaica station with our cluttering up the works for the LIRR. If the LIRR was to reach lower manhattan it would cost so much in renovations and conversions and probably mess up that part of the subway system. They should just continue a tunnel down Atlantic ave and under the east river and probably come out in the area of the battery and under west st if this at all possible. Its a big under taking. Do you slap tons of band aids on it or go for the gold. naturally this is only my personal opinion
john
A subway conversion of LIRR ROW would be a long-term investment in commerce and the costs incurred to the LIRR would, in time, be offset by the gains to Lower Manhattan's economy. Remember, Lower Manhattan employs thousands of support, trade, and retail workers who eventually will be foreclosed from travel on the LIRR by high fares. If their commute to LM was by subway instead of LIRR from, say, Rosedale via a Southeast Queens subway conversion feeding into a converted Brooklyn Branch and thence to LM, the benefits are more clear. I see this as part of our transit future.
Actually, the LIRR branch could be converted to subway. The only thing is that it is directly parallel to Fulton Subway. However, if it remained as a "super-express", it could be used as expansion into Queens. Woodhaven, as mentioned could be reopened, keep Nostrand, make an in-system transfer to the L at Atlantic-East New York, and somehow, if possible, connect the route to the Cranberry Tube. I think there is extra capacity there for the new route to run with the A and C.
At Jamaica a dedicated new subway platform could be constructed, and the line could continue east taking over either the LIRR route with Locust Manor or the other one with St Albans. The E trains could also run with this line extended from Jamaica Center. Add more local stations at the major streets east of Jamaica. Of course this new line would be a part of the subway system, so the fare would be $1.50, or whatever the new fare for the system would be.
I think the majority of LIRR riders who use the LIRR Brooklyn Branch transfer to the subway anyway, so what difference does it make whether they do it at Jamaica on the new line, or at ENY or Flatbush/Atlantic where they do now.
so what difference does it make whether they do it at Jamaica on the new line, or at ENY or Flatbush/Atlantic where they do now.
The difference is that at Flatbush Terminal they can get the 2/3/4/5/M/N/Q/Q-diamond/R/W whereas at Jamaica it's only the E/J/Z/Atlantic Line.
Yeah, but I was talking about them transfering to the "new" line that would take over the LIRR Flatbush line as a subway line. They would be able to transfer to any of the other lines at any point since it would be an in system transfer for the same fare.
I do think subway routes from Lower Manhattan via LIRR's Brooklyn Branch to Southeast Queens on the LIRR Atlantic Branch (Locust Manor, Laurelton, Rosedale, Green Acres Mall) could be a viable combination. How about the abandoned LIRR ROW towards Rockaway? There is structural evidence of a connection between it and the Brooklyn Branch. A possible alternate route for B division traffic from Far Rock/Rock Park? Yeah, I'm probably getting carried away here...
No, you are not getting carried away. I have always envisioned that old ROW becoming part of the system (like it should have right from the beginning, when the TA took over the rest of the line). It would provide service to areas of Queens where there is no subway service.
It could start around 63rd Drive as a terminal, or actually connect to the Queens line, as there is a provision for that already built in at 63rd Drive, but if capacity is not available, just terminate it there, with a transfer available to the Queens Line. Stations could be added at the major streets along the route.
I need several (recent) photos of Sunnyside Yard "A", preferably
shots aiming toward the Queens Blvd. Bridge.
Also, I would like a brief history of this yard, who uses it,
and other facts about it.
for anyone that still cares here is what the previous 3 weekday schedule looked like
9/12/01 -9/13/02
SOUTHBOUND
E 238 E 180 149 148 135 96 42 14
St St St St St St St St
— — — 5:02 5:06 5:14 5:20 5:24
— — — 5:18 5:21 5:29 5:36 5:39
— — — 5:31 5:34 5:42 5:49 5:52
— — — 5:49 5:52 6:00 6:07 6:10
— 5:45 6:00 — 6:03 6:11 6:18 6:21
— — — 6:09 6:13 6:22 6:28 6:32
— 6:07 6:21 — 6:25 6:33 6:39 6:43
— — — 6:29 6:33 6:42 6:51 6:54
— 6:25 6:40 — 6:43 6:52 7:02 7:05
— — — 6:46 6:51 7:00 7:09 7:12
— 6:42 6:57 — 7:00 7:08 7:15 7:19
— — — 7:01 7:05 7:14 7:21 7:25
— — — 7:07 7:10 7:21 7:29 7:32
Then service every 6-9 minutes from 148 St until:
7:29 7:45 8:01 — 8:06 8:16 8:28 8:34
Then service every 6-9 minutes from 148 St until:
7:52 8:07 8:24 — 8:28 8:38 8:50 8:56
Then service every 6-9 minutes from 148 St until:
— — — 8:41 8:47 8:56 9:06 9:11
— — — 8:52 8:55 9:04 9:13 9:17
— — — 9:00 9:03 9:12 9:20 9:25
— — — 9:09 9:12 9:21 9:29 9:33
— — — 9:16 9:20 9:29 9:36 9:41
— — — 9:24 9:28 9:37 9:44 9:48
— — — 9:32 9:36 9:45 9:52 9:56
Then every 8 minutes until:
1:02 1:05 1:14 1:21 1:24
1:09 1:13 1:21 1:28 1:32
1:17 1:21 1:29 1:36 1:40
1:25 1:29 1:37 1:44 1:48
1:33 1:37 1:45 1:52 1:56
Then every 6-8 minutes until:
6:21 6:25 6:33 6:40 6:44
6:24 6:27 6:38 6:45 6:49
6:30 6:33 6:42 6:52 6:56
6:39 6:43 6:51 7:00 7:04
6:49 6:52 7:01 7:08 7:11
6:58 7:02 7:11 7:18 7:21
7:03 7:07 7:16 7:24 7:27
7:09 7:12 7:21 7:32 7:35
7:18 7:21 7:30 7:40 7:43
7:28 7:32 7:40 7:48 7:51
7:38 7:42 7:50 7:57 8:00
Then every 10 minutes until:
8:45 8:48 8:57 9:04 9:08
8:50 8:53 9:02 9:10 9:14
9:02 9:05 9:14 9:22 9:26
9:14 9:18 9:26 9:34 9:38
Then every 12 minutes until:
10:51 10:54 11:02 11:11 11:14
11:03 11:06 11:14 11:23 11:26
11:15 11:18 11:26 11:35 11:38
11:27 11:30 11:38 11:47 11:50
NORTHBOUND
14 42 96 135 148 149 E 180 E 238
St St St St St St St St
5:33 5:37 5:43 5:51 5:55 — — —
5:49 5:53 5:59 6:07 6:11 — — —
6:04 6:08 6:16 6:24 6:28 — — —
6:19 6:22 6:29 6:37 6:41 — — —
6:30 6:33 6:40 6:48 6:52 — — —
6:39 6:42 6:49 6:57 7:01 — — —
6:53 6:57 7:04 7:12 7:16 — — —
7:03 7:10 7:17 7:25 7:29 — — —
7:10 7:13 7:21 7:29 7:33 — — —
7:16 7:20 7:27 7:35 7:39 — — —
7:22 7:25 7:32 7:40 7:44 — — —
7:30 7:33 7:42 7:51 7:55 — — —
Then every 6-9 minutes to 148 St until:
8:40 8:44 8:51 9:00 9:04 — — —
8:45 8:49 8:56 9:05 9:09 — — —
8:50 8:54 9:02 9:10 — — — —
8:55 9:00 9:08 9:16 9:20 — — —
9:04 9:08 9:15 9:23 9:27 — — —
9:15 9:20 9:27 9:35 9:39 — — —
Then every 7-9 minutes to 148 St until:
10:50 10:54 11:01 11:09 11:13 — — —
10:58 11:02 11:09 11:17 11:21 — — —
11:06 11:10 11:17 11:25 11:29 — — —
Then every 8 minutes to 148 St until:
4:10 4:14 4:21 4:29 4:33 — — —
4:17 4:21 4:28 4:36 4:40 — — —
4:24 4:28 4:35 4:43 4:47 — — —
4:33 4:37 4:44 4:52 4:56 — — —
4:39 4:43 4:50 4:58 5:02 — — —
Then every 5-8 minutes to 148 St until:
5:19 5:24 5:31 5:39 — 5:42 5:57 6:12
5:25 5:30 5:38 5:47 5:51 — — —
5:30 5:35 5:43 5:52 5:56 — — —
5:35 5:40 5:48 5:56 6:01 — — —
5:40 5:45 5:53 6:01 — 6:05 6:19 6:34
5:46 5:51 5:59 6:07 6:12 — — —
Then every 7-10 minutes to 148 St until:
9:12 9:19 9:25 9:33 9:37 — — —
9:24 9:31 9:37 9:45 9:49 — — —
9:36 9:43 9:49 9:57 10:01 — — —
Then every 12 minutes to 148 St until:
10:48 10:54 11:01 11:09 11:13 — — —
11:00 11:06 11:13 11:21 11:25 — — —
11:12 11:18 11:25 11:33 11:37 — — —
11:24 11:30 11:36 11:44 — 11:47 12:01 —
11:36 11:42 11:48 11:56 — 11:59 12:13 —
11:48 11:54 12:00 12:08 — 12:11 12:24 —
12:03 12:06 12:12 12:20 — 12:23 12:36 —
Due to popular demand:
A second SubTalkDC trip is in the tentative planning stages. I have done some calendar work and am free to lead a trip on one of the following Saturdays:
April 5
April 12
April 26
Sunday, April 6 is also a possibility but Saturday's have slightly more frequent service.
The April 5th date is during the Cherry Blossom Festival, so the Cherry Blossoms SHOULD be in bloom, but I won't make any guarentees.
I am planning this trip to be a combination of MetroRail and MetroBus in order to cover as much ground as possible. This trip will serve as a compliment to the SubTalk DC Trip that took place on April 21, 2000. My hope is that we will go to the stations we did not go to on the first trip. This way, someone who attended both trips will have been on the entire system at one time or another. Of course, if you attended in 2000, you are not required to come again and if you didn't attend in 2000, you are more than welcome this time around.
Also, if the blossoms are out, we will make time to walk around the Tidal Basin. Unless you wish to part from the group, pedal boating will not be available due to the long lines.
The trip will probably include the following WMATA branches:
Shady Grove
Glenmont
Addison Road
At Wheaton, we will ride the longest WMATA escalator and second longest escalator in the Western Hemisphere.
We also may make an attempt to find the CAF cars on the Green Line
MetroBuses will most definately be used to travel from Shady Grove to Wheaton and possibly from the Tidal Basin area to the Arlington Cemetery Station. The additional cost of bus rides is minimal.
Please e-mail me with input on a date preference, as well as any desires you may have if you were to attend.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
New temporary fare controls !
When you descend the stairs leaving the (W) at Stillwell, the stairs used to turn left and you went right to exit. Now at the bottom of the stairs are another set of wide stairs that descend to a temporary fare controls, much like South Ferry. Seems they shut down the fare controls for the Nortons Point buses.
Demolition continues !
The concrete decking where the (F) used to go under the (Q) is fast disappearing and steel that was encased in concrete is exposed for the first time since Stillwell Term. was built. The crew building is being stripped down to the rafters and the pedestrian overpass looks gone. The bypass tracks for the (Q) movements to Coney Island yard now uses the Sea Beach track. This is new steel structure that will be the first part of the new terminal. The Brighton and Culver platforms are being readied for demolition since they're the next to go.
Status Quo on the Parachute Jump.
The Cyclone looks quiet until Sea Beach Fred returns.
Bill "Newkirk"
Will the new plan contain the same elevated overpass at he mid point of each platform or will there be somthing different? I used to love the view from the overpass as I could see trains coming fromfar away.
"Will the new plan contain the same elevated overpass"
I would assume so. Plans call for a new crew quarters building slightly north of the old one. Wheter it would resemble the old overpass being open for photography is not clear.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are they re:doing Stillwell av because of deterioration of the structure or are they planning to alter or re:configure the amount of tracks going there. does anyone know if they are going to do any changes to the brighton and culver at w 8 st or are they just going to re connect the lines back into stillwell av station?
There will be no track changes on the Brighton Line or the Culver Line, except that both Sea Beach tracks (#1 and #2) will be connected to the Brighton Line. The station will still have eight tracks. A ninth was contemplated as a bypass for Brighton Line put-ins/layups but was rejected for cost reasons.
The station and the structure supporting the tracks were in an advanced state of deterioration and are being replaced.
David
Oh, I thought the one that was being built now on the far end was the 9th and that the whole structure was being redone from the ground up (instead of simply fixed up) to accommodate the 9th. I never heard of it being rejected.
The terminal itself was beyond the point of repair. Its redesign includes ADA-compliant accessibility to the disabled (wheelchair, visually impaired etc.). Stillwell is one of the 100 "key" stations designated for "first-round" ADA compliance. With time more will follow.
["The Cyclone looks quiet until Sea Beach Fred returns"]
Try this:http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-cyclonevideo.realvideo
A thing of beauty Sarge. They can build all the California Screams, Ghostriders, Revolutions, and Colossases they want, but there is still no greater ride and thrill than the Coney Island Cyclone. It is the greatest ride in the world. PERIOD!!!
Hey, they're not using the metal from the Parachute Jump to build the new Stillwell terminal are they? [g]
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Hey, they're not using the metal from the Parachute Jump to build the new Stillwell terminal are they?"
Nope !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, I could say that the Cyclone is MT ride, but I will refrain from that. It might get 47Bus, Double drible Davey and Gotham Busboy upset. But I will be back in the spring to ride the Cyclone and invite anyone else to come and join me for the occasion.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority, which runs Amtrak’s Downeaster, is proposing a new fare system that would increase ticket prices on the most crowded trains and drop prices on runs that usually have many empty seats.
Overall, fares would go up more than 4 percent. The increase, which would take effect in February, would be the first since the service began a year ago, and would be modeled after the way airlines do business, according to the Portland Press Herald of December 17.
The biggest increase on a Portland-to-Boston ticket would be $2, from $21 to $23. Fares would change with the seasons, rising in the summer on many trains but then dropping after Labor Day.
The proposal calls for slashing fares for commuters traveling within Maine but increasing fares by 7 percent to 15 percent for passengers departing from stations in New Hampshire. Passengers departing from Haverhill, Mass., would also see an increase.
Maine is the only state that subsidizes the service, and rail authority officials say they want to show the Maine legislature that they are making every reasonable attempt to minimize the state’s subsidy.
That state subsidy is $400,000 this year, but the rail authority projects it will grow to $1.3 million when federal start-up money dries up in two years.
The authority’s directors voted on December 13 to present the plan to the public for discussion.
John Englert, the rail authority’s executive director said it is “a matter of trying to eke as much from our existing infrastructure as we possibly can. It is simply smart business. That’s all.”
The authority is trying to address the uneven way the service is being used. While some weekend trains are so crowded that people are turned away, many weekday trains have a surplus of empty seats. The Downeaster has many occasional riders but not many regular riders, and very few people are using the train to travel within Maine.
Looks like Disney shows its true ass hole colours. This is why I don't go to theme parks.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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The Disney crowd in Orlando, Fla., is playing hardball – if the coming bullet train stops anywhere else around Orlando, it won’t stop at Disney World, officials say.
Like all trains, the high-speed trains will need riders and money.
Walt Disney World ferries 2.2 million visitors a year to and from Orlando International Airport, and Disney is willing to put all those people on the high-speed train – but only if the train travels nonstop between their complex and the airport, effectively bypassing Orange County’s huge convention center and Disney’s largest theme park competitors.
The St. Petersburg Times reported last week if the train stops to serve attractions along International Drive, including Universal Studios and Sea World, Disney has told state officials to forget about putting a station anywhere near Mickey’s, Minnie’s, Donald’s and Goofy’s front door.
If Disney opts out, the high-speed train meant to link Orlando with the Tampa Bay area and eventually connect the state’s five largest metropolitan areas, would completely bypass the largest single entertainment complex in the world and lose those 2.2-million riders.
“They don’t want people from their park to get on the train and go to other attractions, and the way they’re going to do that is to make sure that the train doesn’t go to other attractions,” said Miami consultant William Dunn, a member of the state’s High Speed Rail Authority board. “I think they’re going to succeed. I don’t see anyone who’s going to stop them.”
Against all predictions, Florida voters approved a high-speed rail system as an amendment to the state Constitution in 2000. The mandate is to begin construction by next November.
The first leg, estimated to cost about $1.3-billion, would tie the Tampa Bay area and Orlando over the Interstate 4 corridor, about 75 miles in a straight line, plus another 20 miles or so to link up with St. Petersburg. While it will be enormously expensive to extend the Tampa end of the rail line over the water to Pinellas County, that is what the enabling legislation calls for.
The Tampa-St. Petersburg link was expected to be the most serious problem faced during design of the first leg. Then the route controversy developed in Orlando.
“It’s the biggest game of poker in town right now,” said Christine Kefauver, the Orange County Commission’s director of transportation. “You should connect the public airport to a public convention center and not bypass a public facility for the benefit of a private organization. It’s just a really sticky situation.”
Disney has never been shy about throwing its weight around. As the largest property taxpayer in Orange County, Disney interests expect their voices to be heard on major local issues.
In this case, Disney officials say they are the ones listening.
“We’re obsessed with getting feedback from our guests, and they tell us they want a direct connection to the airport,” said Marilyn Waters, a Disney spokeswoman.
“Witness that now they come into the airport, get on a bus and go directly to their hotel (inside the Disney complex). To go with high-speed rail, we would be adding one stop at a rail station, where they would transfer to a bus; but for the good of the community, we’re willing to advocate a two-tier system.”
Disney favors having nonstop service along the Central Florida Greeneway to the south side of the airport. Local officials favor a route that stops at Disney, then continues up I-4 to the Bee Line Expressway, where another station would give access to the convention center and International Drive, and then to the north side of the airport.
Disney insists the Bee Line route would be better served by a new light rail system, and that putting high-speed rail there would preclude light rail forever.
C.C. “Doc” Dockery, the millionaire Lakeland businessman who used $2.7-million of his money to persuade voters to approve high-speed rail and who is a member of the rail authority board, said the route decision will be up to the vendor chosen to build, maintain and operate the system. And he expects that vendor to go with Disney’s plan.
“Whoever it is will have to make a go of things without state subsidies,” Dockery said. “If you’ve got a route that generates $25-million more in revenue than the alternative, the vendor is going to take it.”
Evil....!
Forget about Microsoft, Disney is a monopoly of its own! :(
What's Next Disney Forcing Southern California Merolink Trains to Bypass Buena Park Station?
Disney can build their OWN railroad. Put Goofy in the cab, and reuse "Mr Toad's Wild Ride" and they're all set. Dunno WHY taxpayers have to keep forking over corporate welfare when the cupboard is bare. :(
One more reason why I'll never go to a theme park....
Screw them. the train ought to stop everywhere BUT disneyland now...
[As the largest property taxpayer in Orange County, Disney interests expect their voices to be heard on major local issues.]
The problem is that Disney expects ONLY its voice to be heard. Then again, if Disney REALLY has clout, why is it paying ANY property taxes?
A publicly-paid system should go where the public (including Disney's own "cast members"!) can benefit from it. A Disney-only airport connection should be built by Disney, perhaps as an extension of the monorail system.
>>> A Disney-only airport connection should be built by Disney, perhaps as an extension of the monorail system. <<<
Did you or any of the others bitching about Disney read the article. Disney has no problem with the line not going through its property and providing their own transportation for its guests from the airport to its hotel. Disney figures if the rail route will take a round about route with stops at competitors' business it would just as soon keep providing its own direct transportation for its guests, without easy connections to competitors. A reasonable business decision.
The system has been put to bids for an operator to build, and then run the thing without public subsidies. There is a choice to route it one way to all the other facilities with no stop at the Disney hotel, or directly to Disney's hotel. The operator will have a say in which route it wants since it expects to run at a profit. The thinking is that the operator could not make a profit without the Disney business, so that will be the route chosen.
In other words the public authorities want Disney to subsidize the system by no longer transporting their guests from the airport in favor of a public transportation system going to their competitors before it reaches its hotel. Disney is not willing to do that.
Tom
Agreed.
I am not familiar with Disney World's layout. How close to the Disney hotel could a station on that line be placed without encroaching onto Disney property (Disney would have no veto rights in that case)? If close enough, Disney would probably feel compelled to provide shuttle service to it (or open a gate and let you walk onto Disney property) because not to do so would be making an obviously adverse statement to potential customers.
If this is done and paid for ***SOLELY*** with "Ontapenoor funny munny" then nobody would have spit to say ... but a "Transit Board" and other nuances of docudroids and adminiswigs of taxpayer finance (plus the possibility of a taxpayer bailout - after all, this *IS* Florida who can't count their balls and come up with the same number twice) suggests that there WILL (inevitably?) be taxpayer money at risk. I smell eminent domain, and private companies CANNOT do that! (at least YET)
If Disney wants a railroad, let them build it. If a private concern wants to build a railroad, they'll build it where the profit is and screw everyone else. Universal will just have to outbid McDizzy ... but if taxpayer dollars *DO* come into play, screw the rodent.
Then again, this is Florida. Screw'em ... when they learn how to vote, I'll care. :)
There is no Disney Hotel, there are many hotels on the Disney property. The Disney World website probably has a list.
When the WDW property was purchased in the 1960s, Disney decided to buy much more than what they needed so that there would be no skyline (so it would feel like a magical world). This property was used for stuff like EPCOT, MGM and the Animal Kingdom. I believe that now it has all been built up, so if the station is built off Disney property, it will still be near something, but it probably won't be next to the most important Disney attractions.
How close to the Disney hotel could a station on that line be placed without encroaching onto Disney property
There are scores of hotels on the Disney property. They own a vast amount of land, both developed, and undeveloped. The Florida complex is nothing like the Califonia Complex. Disney still has to provide their own internal transportation either way. It's like it's own city in there anyway. It's huge.
As for the rail system proposed, I don't see what everyone is complaining about. If it is being done with private funds to make a profit, or if Disney is using a large amount of it' own funds for the extension, why shouldn't they have a voice in how it's built an where? Why should they use their funds be partly used to make it easier to go to the competitors?
On the other hand, if Disney isn't funding the project (in any way), they should have no voice in it. But if they are, why shouldn't they have a say in where their money is going.
>>> I am not familiar with Disney World's layout. How close to the Disney hotel could a station on that line be placed without encroaching onto Disney property <<<
From what others have posted, that it is a vast amount of property with several hotels, it is even more understandable that Disney would not want a train on the property that would lead to competitors in the area. Under the present arrangement they pick up people at the airport, bring them to hotels on the property and suck up 100% of their spending money then return them to the airport. Why in the world would they want their pigeons to even know about other places to spend money.
Tom
Agreed.
I think it's a good thing that Florida is building a high speed rail system at all, even though I'm very distrustful of Disney. I think Orlando definitely needs a local light rail transit system. But all this talk has made me wonder, if Disney had no say in the matter, what would be the best service scheme? Which places would be served by the high speed line, and which by light rail? Are there any Florida subtalkers who can give insight?
(I ask because I know emotions about Disney's actions can easily color our view. I don't trust their motives, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the opposite of what they want is best. So that's why I put my question in terms that removed Disney from the equation.)
Mark
Without Disney there would be no high-speed transit needed. There wouldn't be a Universal or any other tourist attractions worth mentioning in central Florida without Disney. Wouldn't be enough pople living in Orlando to warrant a LR transit system, either.
Allow me to clarify...I didn't mean "if Disney didn't exist." I just meant to ask the question in terms of a hypothetical situation in which Disney existed but wasn't tryin got influence the design of the system. Sorry for the confusion.
Mark
It's hard to remove Disney from the equation because the major part of the economy of Central Florida depends on Disney. It's the whole reason it is developed like it is. Without Disney, there is basically no Central Florida economy. Sure it would probably survive without Disney at this point, but it sure would suffer.
Basically, that gives Disney a tremondous amount of clout. And if they are putting any money at all into the train, of course they are going to want a say in how it is built, or where.
Makes sense ... most of us up here are NOT patronizing Florida in ANY way, No Dizzy (go to California instead), no chemical-laced citrus (California's is MUCh tastier), if it comes from or goes to Florida, we don't need it until they learn how to vote. So frankly, many of us don't care WHAT they do with their choochoo, it's Florida. Who cares?
So frankly, many of us don't care WHAT they do with their choochoo, it's Florida. Who cares?
So much for non-NYCSubway rail topics I guess.
I wouldn't say that necessarily ... though I'd have to agree with W C Fields when it comes to Florida, "I'd rather be in Philadelphia." :)
Lol! Well, my point exactly, although some may not want to go to Disney, if not for Disney, no one would want to go to Central Florida....
Yeah, and to think ... 20+ years ago, all of that was prime swamp real estate. Rio Rancho Estates and time shares. Only right that it be a rat trap. :)
I care because Orlando is a perennial site for conventions that I have to attend. I might find myself using these trains sooner or later. I'm not into Disney World, so if I can at least do some rail fanning while I'm in Orlando it will make my trips more fun, especially if the trains allow me to easily escape the artificial universe of Orlando and visit some of the things I really do want to see in Florida, like Cape Canaveral or the swamps where the Manatees live.
Mark
Might want to talk to your adminiswigs about picking a place more "family friendly" than Orlando. TOO many children have vanished there, I wouldn't want to bring MY kids to a Shrubbish state, especially one that loses as many children as ballots ...
Rent an SUV, screw the train - it's FLORIDA ... home of an already rampant biological disaster ... and Manatees are about to be extinct, they're propeller bait. Jeb says so ... pesky interferers with catamarans and powerboats - nuke a gay whale for Kripes ...
Florida? I'd rather be in Baton Rouge. :)
Florida? I'd rather be in Baton Rouge
Nah....as long as you are in that state you might as well be in New Orleans...at least they invented Bourbon Street to forgot about what the place looks like.
When I first arrived in New Orleans I hated the place....probably one of the dirtiest cities I have ever been in. Their Canal Street reminded me of 1970's Jamaica Avenue (after the el was removed).
Anyway, that evening I wound up on Bourbon Street on a balcony throwing beads, and literally crawling to the bus stop to get back to my hotel. The whole bus was full of drunks...New Orleans REALLY needs a good transportation system. Canal Street trolley coming back soon! It's a great railfan city (there's nothing much else to do there during the day, recovering from the hangover).
New Orleans has a way of making you loving the place, I left there really loving the place....and the Saint Charles Trolley is great!
Yes, New Orleans really does make you love the place in spite of all the sleaze, dirt, and crime. I'm going there this spring and I'm looking forward to riding the St. Charles streetcar and watching the streetcars being tested on Canal Street. Of course, I'd really like to see streetcar service returned to bus route 84...the Desire Street line!
New Orleans could also use better airport service. The airport bus runs to downtown during the day, but at night it runs a truncated route, forcing a transfer in a rather decrepit part of town. I'd love to see a light rail line that ran to the airport among other places.
Mark
I'm going there this spring and I'm looking forward to riding the St. Charles streetcar and watching the streetcars being tested on Canal Street.
I was there this past February, and they were just getting started with the Canal Street Line. The center median "bus" lanes (aka original trolley ROW) on Canal Street was barricaded off. I'm sure they must have made progress in the past year. Does anyone know the timeline for the trolley, or anyone who has been there recently to let us know of the progress? Damn, I love that city (in spite of all the "sleaze, dirt, and crime").
Certainly wouldn't want to live there though, but it's a lot of fun to visit!
As for the service to the airport, yes that is bad, we think we have it bad in New York. It takes a good 45 minutes to get to the airport by car, car service, etc, and that's if there is no traffic. It took that long when I took a car service to the airport at about 5:30 in the morning. They are doing great with the various trolley/bus routes around downtown, but they really need some kind of rail line that would avoid the road traffic to get to the airport from Downtown New Orleans.
New Orleans RTA's website has a webpage: Canal Streetcar Project but it doesn't give a timetable. It seems that the biggest obstacle is getting the carbarns and other service facilities built.
Mark
When we hit the place around 1971, one of our "residents" brought back the "Musee Conte" sign (Wax Museum) and hung it on our house on Webster Avenue for a couple of days ... it's an AMAZINGLY skanky place. But if you drink enough and stay in the back of the trolley, it's tolerable. :)
I could think of a BETTER WELCOMING SIGN living on Webster Avenue. Just use your imagination!!!! Now, living in the frigid North, can you appreciate some isolation (except for the 'rednecks.) It's January 3rd at 9:40 PM in Warren County, New Jersey. All is silent except for the ice storm on the estate. The flood lights have been engaged and the perimeter of the eight acres secured. There will be no visitors from Webster Avenue and the rednecks are quiet tonight.
In the hole BIE, in the hole BIE........a beeeg blast for the New Year to all. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Yeah, we got our ice storm a couple of days ago, bent ALL the trees down with about an inch worth of ice on everything so there's no reception of anything. We're following up with ANOTHER 15 inches of snow on the ground, headed for 30 - makes 67 inches of schmutz in the past 2 weeks. If I hadn't lost the damned popgun in the snowbank, I'd probably be USING it now. :)
>>Florida? I'd rather be in Baton Rouge.
I've lived in Baton Rouge, believe it or not, and I really do like it better than Orlando. At least in Baton Rouge, no one is trying to deny the proximity of alligators! : )
Fortunately, I don't have children, but even if I did I think there are better places to take the youngsters than in Kid Vegas.
But last time I visited Orlando I booked a flight through Miami, with a layover long enough to go into town and ride the Metrorail and the Tri-Rail commuter trains.
Mark
Palmetto bugs. Moo. :)
You'll forget all ABOUT the roaches if you visit Florida.
An English friend who spent Christmas in Florida called up when he got back yesterday to say how awful it had been, and said "I couldn't believe that the USA has got so much worse since 9/11". My wife and I - who had been in Florida in summer 2001 and hated it, in Colorado in summer 2002 and loved it, and NYC in both November 2001 and November 2002 and loved it - had to work hard to persuade him that it was *Florida* that was the problem, and not the effect of 9/11 on the disposition of Americans.... We won't be going to Florida again.
One can always haul the gaggle of ankle-biters off to Anaheim if the sacred rodent's your "thang" ... a number of neighbors have done both, and NO QUESTION - DisneyLAND and the "California experience thingy" are quite good. As for Florida, it's the Laissez Fairy gone completely nuts. If the rat trap doesn't get ya, the diseased BOATS will. :)
But they don't care about any of this in Florida ... as long as the suckers customers keep coming ...
Please refer to this post for a clarification of my question.
Mark
Watch out Boston, you're next. Probably should have stuck w/ Amtrak. At least you can anticipate a known evil.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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Rail transportation conglomerate Connex, just awarded the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority Commuter Rail contract, is in trouble on a British rail line and an Australian route, but okay on another Aussie line.
Reports from London on December 11 disclosed Connex says it cannot afford to carry on operating. The Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) said it is bailing out the Connex South Eastern train company, which runs services between London and Kent and Sussex.
Connex is said to be sustaining enormous losses and executives now say they cannot continue to operate while losing so much money.
The firm’s franchise will now finish at the end of 2006 rather than in 2011. The government’s rail authority will pay the money to keep the company going for another year, but it is planning to renegotiate the franchise to ensure that promised new trains are delivered before 2006.
Eventually a new franchise will be advertised and will include local services on a high-speed line to the channel tunnel.
This package has short and long-term benefits for passengers,” said Nick Newton, the SRA’s chief operating officer.
“It secures the continuation of Connex’s efforts to improve punctuality, ensures delivery of the program to replace slam door trains, and opens the way for an expanded Kent franchise from 2007 incorporating the proposed high speed services.”
Critics of the government have said the bailout is further demonstration that the government will always rescue privatized train operators, rather than letting them go bust.
More than half the 25 train companies have now received extra public money as part of refinancing or restructuring deals, but an SRA spokesman defended the bailout.
“Connex had been losing money and was likely to have continued to do so,” he said.
“We wanted to have a degree of stability and that’s why we have announced the extra subsidy.”
Connex is a French-owned private rail firm that runs services throughout Europe.
It was originally awarded both the south-central and southeastern franchises, but lost the south central franchise in October 2000 following criticism of its management and performance.
In Australia, Victoria’s privatized public transport system is in crisis after the biggest operator – Connex – said on December 16 that it would abandon its train and tram services by before December 28.
The sudden walkout by British company National Express will force the state government to resume control of more than half of Melbourne’s trams and trains and the “V” Line rail service.
Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said that transport services would continue with minimal disruption.
“Our priority is to make sure that trains, trams and buses continue to operate tomorrow and in the days ahead,” Batchelor said.
“We have asked National Express to assist us in ensuring there is a seamless transition.”
Although the government, possibly through a receiver company, will oversee National Express operations for the short term, Batchelor ruled out taking the transport system back to full government control.
“We’ve still got two private operators and we’ve got to continue with privatization,” he said.
National Express said it would hand back its train and tram operations to the government by December 23 -– just over three years into its contracts of between 10 and 15 years.
The announcement came after emergency talks with the government failed to resolve a continuing dispute over the level of taxpayer subsidies for the company’s loss-making M Tram, M Train and V Line services. It is believed the government signaled it was not prepared to meet demands by National Express for an additional subsidy of more than $100 million.
Earlier this year, the government agreed to a $105 million financial bailout for the three transport operators, with National Express getting more than $45 million.
National Express is now set to write off $200 million from its local businesses. It also has $135 million in security bonds at risk.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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Chicago’s Metra commuter rail service should be extended from Kenosha to Racine and Milwaukee at a cost of $152.1 million, an advisory panel in Wisconsin said last week.
The panel is recommending a medium level of commuter rail service, which would include vehicles, stations, track and signals, storage and servicing, according to the Chicago Daily Herald of December 13.
High-level service would cost $224.8 million. Federal money would pay for 80 percent of construction costs and about $5 million of the net operating costs, estimated to be $15.4 million a year. Wisconsin would pay $10.4 million for net operating costs. Under a medium-service scenario, the rail service would provide about 4,100 weekday rides, or 1.14 million trips a year. A high level of service would provide up to 5,100 weekday trips, or 1.4 million trips a year.
Hooray! An intelligent idea.
Wouldn't this service be more of an intercity, rather than a commuter service? Also, AMTRAK already runs trains between Milwaukee and Chicago.
If they don't want to use the 'Metra' name, one that's not in use at the moment that might be appropriate would be "Chicago, North Shore, & Milwaukee."
They might even think of extending the Skokie 'L' north. Or running joint service with the CTA.
As the French say, 'The more things change, the more they remain the same.'
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I'll have an Electroburger an' a Coke, please.
"Wouldn't this service be more of an intercity, rather than a commuter service? Also, AMTRAK already runs trains between Milwaukee and Chicago. "
So what? Should SEPTA and NJT cancel commuter rail service in the Northeast Corridor because Amtrak already runs between NY and Philly?
It's clear that local commuter service complements Amtrak's express non-stop (or fewer stop) service. What is needed is improvements to the ROW so Amtrak trains can increase their operating speeds. In this way, Amtrak can offer premium high speed service while Metra provides economical, local service. They serve different markets, as the Acela vs. SEPTA and NJT operations demonstrates.
Wouldn't this service be more of an intercity, rather than a commuter service? Also, AMTRAK already runs trains between Milwaukee and Chicago.
Speaking of Wisconsin commuter trains, does anyone know if there are proposals/plans to restore the Milwaukee Railroad commuter service from Milwaukee to Watertown that ended in 1972?
When AMTRAK temporarily extended its Hiawatha service to Watertown WI in 1998, several commuters actually rode he train daily to Milwaukee.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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Greater Toronto Transit Authority (GO Transit) has awarded Bombardier Transportation an order for 20 new-generation bilevel commuter rail cars. They will join 341 other Bombardier-built cars. Valued at $55 million, the contract calls for designing, building and delivering.
GO Transit has ordered cars that will be accessible to the physically challenged. Each vehicle offers total capacity of 378 passengers (133 seated and 245 standees) on two full decks and intermediate end decks.
The design allows for higher ceilings and better seating, stairway and door positioning, the firm stated.
The low-level platform doors let a full carload of passengers on or off within 90 seconds, minimizing platform congestion.
The vehicles will be built at Bombardier’s Thunder Bay, Ontario, manufacturing facility. Production will begin immediately and first deliveries are expected late next summer.
Pretty good for them. Isn't Thunder Bay where the MTA's M-7's for the LIRR built? They have proven to be quite reliable.
From Last Weeks Destination Freedom located at:
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12232002.shtml
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By Wes Vernon
Washington Correspondent
America’s smaller railroads need help now or many of them will go out of business, warns Richard F. Timmons, the new president of the American Short Lines and Regional Railroads Association.
Timmons, a former army general, says his new duties at ASLRRA are not entirely foreign to the tasks that confronted him during his four years as a high-ranking military officer – more about that later. His problem, in a nutshell, is that the infrastructures of many smaller lines are “falling apart.”
Infrastructure, of course, is a perennial problem with the entire railroad industry, which does not enjoy a government backed “trust fund” as highways and airlines do. The smaller lines feel that pinch in spades. Simmons is sending an SOS to Capitol Hill.
Legislation to remedy the problem – HR-1020 – has been bottled up in Congress, victim of a fierce, often-recurring ideological battle. Republicans won’t sign off on it if it contains Davis-Bacon (prevailing wage) provisions. Democrats won’t give the measure the green light without Davis-Bacon included.
Speaking to a December 13 luncheon meeting of the Transportation Table at the National Press Club here in Washington, Timmons warned that many of his member railroads were sitting on a “ticking time bomb.” The basic problem is that many of them are no longer able to interchange much of the equipment with the Class I railroads because the main trunk lines are bringing on freight cars that are too large for the smaller lines’ tracks to accommodate, according to federal regulations.
“Without the upgrades necessary to handle 286,000-pound freight cars, the evolving new standard, the short lines will steadily be unable to accept those heavier cars from class I railroads. Thus, they will incrementally lose business and collapse,” the new ASLRRA boss predicted.
That does not mean he’s asking the feds to foot the whole bill. Based on the Association’s studies, Timmons figures it will take about $7 billion to make the entire short line system “286 capable.”
What is needed is to “get the RRIF (Railroad Infrastructure Financing) program up and running the way it should be.” That would mean $1.5 billion in loans added to $1 billion in federal funding. Over time, “short line revenues” will finance the remaining $4.5 billion. Translation: The short lines are asking only enough to make it possible to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps.
“While at the end of the day, the short lines will pay the majority of the cost,” the short lines president told the luncheon, “our economics are such that we can’t get to ‘the end of the day’ without the initial shot of federal money.”
That, in turn, will not happen unless and until the Republicans and Democrats work out their Davis-Bacon dispute. Timmons said “a strong group of Congressmen” is “trying to work this out with the House leadership.”
Noting that the Association of American Railroads (AAR, the voice of the Class Is) had advocated help for the smaller lines, one questioner posited that they should try to help since the bigger railroads sold the smaller operators “a bunch of losers” with inadequate infrastructure.
Timmons replied that is not the point. The overriding issue, he said, is that the ability of the smaller lines to interchange with the larger railroads is important to the AAR members as well. Without the ability of smaller lines to pick up from and hand off cars to the main lines, the larger rail companies lose, too. Failure to serve the customers on the small or rural carriers’ routes, by extension, adversely affects the trunk lines as well.
Other items on the legislative agenda hopefully would be included in the T-21 omnibus transportation bill, which is up for reauthorization in 2003. They include a federal tax credit for capital investment and maintenance expenditures and legislation that would allow short lines to be eligible for flexible funding.
Once again, we get back to the Davis-Bacon stalemate, which haunts just about everything the short line operators request on the federal level. That, in turn, raises another issue: To what extent can the smaller “Mom and Pop” operations afford “prevailing (i.e. union) wages”? In some cases, the CEO is also the engineer, conductor, brakeman and bookkeeper to boot. Quite often he will typically work long hours just to stay in business.
What does all this mean to the overall economy?
Timmons points out that Amtrak has argued that if Congress were to end federal support for its operations, the jobs in its $1.118 billion annual payroll would be lost to the economy.
“Our annual payroll is the same,” he declared.
The military connection?
The day Timmons arrived in South Korea to assume his post as commander of the U.S. Eighth Army and Chief of Staff of U.N. forces there, his predecessor said a few nice words about him in a formal military ceremony. After that, the predecessor handed Timmons the keys, boarded a plane, and was never seen nor heard from again.
Timmons then was ushered into his new office where an intelligence officer said, “General, it’s really great to have you here, and by the way, we think the North Koreans have a nuclear bomb, and we recommend you get ready for war tomorrow.”
Assuming the helm with the short line railroads, outgoing president Frank Turner gave Timmons the keys, “and while Frank was kind enough to stick around and get me up to speed, I learned very quickly that the short line industry and the Association itself are facing some very important challenges. Not nuclear, but very important.”
sorry im late in posting this
The following article appeared in the Saturday, December 21,
2002 Boston Herald:
LOCAL NEWS
State halts return of troublesome trolley
cars
by Doug Hanchett
Saturday, December 21, 2002
State regulators this week blocked the MBTA
from bringing its sidelined fleet of derail-prone Green Line cars back
into service,
saying they want assurances their Italian
manufacturer is actively involved in devising the fix.
The Department of Telecommunications and
Energy, which has final say on T safety matters, nixed the transit
agency's plan to
reintroduce 27 low-floor Breda trolley cars
this month, saying it needed additional information and at least
another month to review
the transit agency's plan.
``While the department shares the MBTA's goal
of returning these handicap-accessible cars to revenue service as soon
as possible,
(it) anticipates it will need approximately 30
to 45 days to thoroughly review and assess the completed (repair)
proposal,'' wrote Brian
Cristy, director for the DTE's transportation
division.
The T had hoped to slowly put the 27 Breda
cars back into service on the Green Line's Boston College branch by
mid-December. T
officials said they were ``disappointed'' by
the DTE's decision. ``We believe they can be returned to service . . .
(because) the cars
have performed quite well during the testing on
Commonwealth Ave.,'' said T spokesman Joe Pesaturo.
The $2.18 million cars, introduced in 1998,
have suffered a rash of derailments and have been repeatedly yanked
from service. The
most recent problems arose 16 months ago, when
they were mothballed once again.
The T has proposed a $3.8 million fix that
involves ``cutting'' new wheel profiles, upgrading the track and
beefing up inspections in
an attempt to help the Italian-made vehicles
stay on the rails.
Earlier this year, an independent review panel
warned the T to prepare itself for a massive redesign of the vehicle
that could cost the
cash-strapped agency $50 million.
The T froze its order of 100 Breda cars last
year after taking delivery of 27 vehicles. The contract remains on
hold.
Is seems today that SubTalk is starting to become more lively again! That's the SubTalk I like!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
I found that over the past few days, Subtalk has become more boring.
I have found new intersting threads.
I suppose it is...
Ronnie is back too! :) But for some reason, he doesn't reply to my posts acknowledging him... I think he doesn't like me. :(
(sigh) oh well, what can you do? Anyway, SubTalk over the past day has boosted to over 650 posts a day now.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
>>> I think he doesn't like me. <<<
Why should he like you when you insist on calling him Ronnie after he told you he does not like that name?
Tom
It was a joke we have for each other. :) Apparently, you didn't read that thread before, or did you?
I didn't realize he wanted a specific response. Sorry about that...
No offense intended. I've been all over the board.
You can call me what you like. Just don't call me at 2 AM unless it's really important.
:0)
See, I knew it! I never lost faith! Old Tom was obviously mistaken! :)
I agree, Acela and others you got your "wish" for the live Subtalk we are used to seeing. I went on last night and there was 676 messages on the screen so its up and running again 8-D!
I have posted 51 photos taken during the final days of the Myrtle Ave El on my website. As far as I know they have never been made public before. They have definitely never been on the internet.
You can check them out at The Other Side of the Tracks
Comments are welcome
Enjoy,
Harry
Wow, those are great! My compliments to the photographer. He did such an artsy job with them!
It's only makes it hurt some more that the Myrtle El was removed. Of course even if it had survived, it would have had to have been rebuilt in some way, even if they had bought lightweight R39 cars for the el, so it probably would look much different today than it did in it's final days.
Great photos.
Yes, turly great photos! I did ride on that line before its demise, indeed I was pulled down while I was still in the Navy, (IIRC). To bad I did not get off the train and explore the stations!
Elias
Nice pictures. A little arty and some very simple.
Just one question, where was the pic taken where it is a passageway and it says "To IND Subway" ?
Was that at Bridge-Jay?
That would have been Bridge-Jay, yes. You got a free transfer to the IND, but you were only supposed to use it to get as far as Broadway-Nassau.
I thought Bridge-Jay was like any El stop. A customer would get a ticket from the booth, go downstairs into the street and enter the stop at Jay St. I didn't know there was a pasageway.
I know there was no passageway.
I thought that you would get your ticket BOARDING at Myrtle stops west of Broadway and similarly coming home at Broadway-Nassau.
I was never there, so this is hearsay and conjecture.
The way it worked was you got a transfer ticket LEAVING at Bridge-Jay. The ticket specified that it was only good to go to Broadway-Nassau. I once got yelled at by the RR Clerk when I headed toward the ENY bound platform, but I believe it was more because he thought I was going the wrong way. But once you were on the system they had no way of knowing whether you went to Broadway-Nassau or not.
Going the other way, you got your transfer BOARDING at Broadway-Nassau, so there was no way to fudge it.
The buses and TCs ending at High Street had a comparable arrangement.
Great pictures!!!
Here's a couple of pictures I have. Since angelfire doesn't allow remote loading I can't put links to them. You will have to paste the pics in your address box and click onto them. If that don't work I'll make a fast webpage and put 'em on it.
Pic#1) http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/images/myrtle.jpg This is the Newsday article about the last day.
Pic#2) http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/Qseat.jpg This is the souvenir seat I stole borrowed on the last day and carried home on the "J" to Sutphin (the El, not Archer Av) and the LIRR to Hempstead!
How much you want for that seat?
Sorry, not for sale.
Sadly, thats always the answer. Thanks anyway.
I don't have too many transit relics, that's why I don't want to part with it. Also the fact that I got it myself from a Q car rather than buying it makes me want to keep it more.
Although I assume you want the genuine seat from an old relic train, if by any chance you do not mind a new one there are actually companies that still make wicker seat cushions. I know Branford deals with at least one company, possibly more. Maybe if you get in touch with Branford they could steer you in the right direction.
I can understand, If I was to go to through the trouble of 'borrowing' something from the NYCTA, I'd want to keep it as well. Remember, don't let the MTA find out about your 35 year borrowing of their seat, the'll want it in the scrap heap immediatly. Someday I will have my mis-matched subway car, assembled, someday... Until then, its bed time for this relic.
Absolutely WONDERFUL ... I always loved sneaking into Brooklyn and riding that beastie when I was a kid. Sorry to have seen that, the culver and the Third Avenue El get torched. It was a wonderful bucolic ride.
I've recommended a visit to Joe at the modeller's board and his folks as well ... NICE details there!
Yeah, whoever took those photo's really got up close and personal with those old Q cars. I rarely took the Myrtle, but it was sad to see it go. I got my last ride in about a week before it closed.
As a Bronx boy, the Myrt couldn't be beat ... a Coney Island ride without the barkers. :)
I only joyrided it myself though, emphasis on the JOY part. I loved those old cars and the sounds and smells. And they ran nice and slow, the motorpeople didn't feel too compelled to lock themselves in the cab as long as a crowd didn't develop. That line was truly fun to ride down to Bridge/Jay and back over and over and over again.
Some may not be aware, but our old buddy here, BigEdIRTmanL was the motorman on the last run with the ERA members on board.
Sometimes I wish I could travel back in time.
The Myrt and the 3rd Avenue are definitely worth the ride back. Now if only we could do it without that silly DeLorean. :)
I don't care what kind of car gets me there and back, so long as it gets me back!
Now if only we could do it without that silly DeLorean.
Well maybe the steam train they used in the third movie.....
Better yet, a special shuttle at Euclid Ave to 76th Street (of course using the LowV's hidden in the station). Once you hit 88 mph in the 76th Station, poof, you're back on the Myrtle El.
I .... LIKE IT! :)
Another foamer bit ... the person who put the water in and stokes the fire of the mighty steamer just about has pressure by the time their shift ENDS ... moral of the story, don't volunteer to stoke up, you'll be dead on hours by the time she can MOVE. Someone ELSE gets to take her out. :(
You don't really think 1689 could get up to 88 mph, do you?:) Its motors would birdcage.
Wanna find out? :)
This is beautiful, THANK YOU!
Brought me back to those days when I rode it for fun. Emphasis on the artsy stuff always works well with me. I applaud the lensman for finding the things typical railfan photographers don't photograph.
God I miss that line.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's EXACTLY what made those photos so special for me. It was one of my FAVORITE joyrides, slightly edging out the Culver Shuttle and the Frankie. If ONLY they'd been encouraged to do to the Myrt and the Culver what they did to the Frankie ... well, we'd have boring rides in Hippos. Nevermind. :)
Perhaps you may remember sitting on those cross seats on warm summer day with the windows open from the BOTTOM four inches and the breeze wafting through !
And the ride itself, those Q's were goverened for a slow ride because Old Myrt's steelwork was showing her age. That made it fun, no big rush to get to Bridge-Jay Sts. Just plodding and joyfully bouncing making so quaint and colorful.
Unlike any of the EL's running today which are basically surface route replacements and subway extensions, the Myrtle Ave line between Broadway and Bridge-Jay was a true ELEVATED. That's old elevated cars and before that steam engines and wooden trailers.
If there is a Heaven, I'll bet the entire Myrtle Ave elevated is up there !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Amen! And yes indeed I did. What was PARTICULARLY nice about the line is when the train came to a stop at a station and it was DEAD silent. The compressors tended to kick in while the train was moving, not while it was sitting most of the time. NICE. :)
This photo is the most poignant. Urban decay was in full force and the demolition of the el only mirrored the demolition of the neighborhood it served.
The sheer volume of NYC buildings that was lost to the wrecking ball during the 1960-70's is mind-boggling!
Terrific shots! Some of the best I've ever seen.
A few things I found interesting.
1) The first picture in the series poignantly shows an ad for the 1970 Fords on the wall of an el car, while the line itself would not see 1970. The ad is another reminder of the victory of the automobile over mass transit.
2) The woodwork must have been amazing once, but it looks so tired in these photos.
3) The entire set of photos give off a mournful tone, as if the Myrt was tired and ready to go.
For anyone nostalgic about old subways and els, this is a great set.
1) The first picture in the series poignantly shows an ad for the 1970 Fords on the wall of an el car, while the line itself would not see 1970. The ad is another reminder of the victory of the automobile over mass transit.
Rememeber though that the el closed in October 1969...the fall being the time they usually have the following years ads out.
3) The entire set of photos give off a mournful tone, as if the Myrt was tired and ready to go.
Very true. That tired look is just what gives the photo such an artsy look.
I like the fact that the images are devoid of people.
Most photos I've seen from the last days of the Myrtle El are jammed with railfans carrying cameras.
Ah god, what sexy pics! I like how the black/white color accent the pictures themselves! It's a pity it was demolished in favor of the 'better' Archer Avenue Extension.
You're thinking of the wrong line.
The Myrtle Avenue line was demolished in favor of nothing.
It was demolished for the sweet cash in the pockets of 370 Jay street.
Everybody talks about how the Myrtle was demolished. Well, what is the part from Broadway to Metropolitan? Chopped Liver? Lets face it, a nice chunk, full of history, still exists. And for railfans, that was the best part. You had a 50-50 chance of getting either a Q-car or a Standard, unheard of anywhere else in the late 60's. And the line goes through some nice transitions from el to ground lever before Metropolitan.
I admit, I've only ridden that line twice, and the second time was only from Wyckoff (to Bay Parkway) and at night.
Everybody talks about how the Myrtle was demolished. Well, what is the part from Broadway to Metropolitan? Chopped Liver? Lets face it, a nice chunk, full of history, still exists.... And the line goes through some nice transitions from el to ground lever before Metropolitan
I agree completely.
Actually, that part of the M line is one of the most interesting els in the system, often forgotten, because it kind of blends in with the J.
-The run between Myrtle and Central, you can observe the old Myrtle El leads. When I was teenager in the 80's, the tracks were still there, although the switches removed.
-The run between Central and Knickerbocker is the typical dual contract three track local station set up, except interesting the girders are still in place for the express track, but the tracks removed.
-Wyckoff is an interesting station all it's own. Although it's getting less interesting. YEars back there were two abandoned exits on the platforms, one on each end (right where those rotting wood cross overs are. They were the original "express track" crossovers for the original exits, before the L train transfer was built in the middle). David G. posted some photos of the Wyckoff station about a month ago for anyone who doesn't know what I mean. And of course the railed off express track is unique. Get your visits in now, the complex is changing as there is renovation/reconstruction work going on that may take away a lot of the "relics of the past" there.
-Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond are all also kind of cool. They are all island platforms, and each one is different looking. Seneca is extremely narrow, and Fresh Pond very wide. The views of the city from Forest are also amazing. The landscape must be sort of high right there. You can see over the buildings in all directions, and the Empire State, and most of the city landmarks are visable. (The WTC used to stick clearly in the distance also). At night it's even better. Forest is definitely one of the top stations for views. (I don't mean liek Smith 9th, but for a station seemingly right in the middle of Brooklyn/Queens, the views are great all around.
Also between Seneca and Fresh Pond the el runs over it's own ROW, thus not darkening or "ruining" a street, and in defiance of all of the other ELs in the system actually looks into people's back windows, instead of their front windows (other lines do this, but not on els).
After Fresh Pond, is the highlight. The line gradually decends to the ground, and you get a great view of the NYCT transit yard, the NYA/LIRR yard, and a very cool bridge that carries the NYCRR ROW over the LIRR Montauk Branch. Great moments in railroading there.
-The terminal at Metro seems to drop you in the middle of no where, the urban look of NY didn't quite reach that little spot yet.
Thanks for the excuse to "vent" about my favorite line....
And in its final year or so of operation, a transplanted (and fiberglas-benched) IND R-7a or R-9, complete with "M" front signs.
wayne
Before you changed the signs to MM, of course.:)
Yes, but its not the same. The portion of the Myrt between Metropolitan and Broadway/Myrtle has been rebuilt and strengthened to handle heavier cars. The western portion from Broadway to Bridge/Jay was pretty much in original form when it was torn down.
Hmm, I don't think people got what I said. I'm saying it was sad to see it was demolished because it was replaced with an extension that didn't match up to it. I mean, 3 stations!? That was worth it...
Hmm, I don't think people got what I said. I'm saying it was sad to see it was demolished because it was replaced with an extension that didn't match up to it. I mean, 3 stations!? That was worth it...
CPCTC, I think you still have it confused.
Archer Ave replaced the Jamaica El - 121st Street to 168th Street - the former end of the J Line - over Jamaica Avenue.
The Myrtle El was replaced by the B54 bus. The Myrtle El in the photos ran over Mrytle Ave from Myrtle Broadway to Bridge-Jay Street. What is now the M made an "X" crossing over the J train tracks at Myrtle-Broadway and kept going straight down Myrtle to downtown Bropoklyn.
Look at this map: Knickerbocker, Central, Broadway-Myrtle, Sumner, etc.
MAP
Oops, I didn't see your later posts CPCTC....disregard.....
I just realized the error I made. I was thinking of the wrong El line. My mistake everyone.
Ah god, what sexy pics! I like how the black/white color accent the pictures themselves! It's a pity it was demolished in favor of the 'better' Archer Avenue Extension.
Ah god, what sexy pics! I like how the black/white color accent the pictures themselves! It's a pity it was demolished in favor of the 'better' Archer Avenue Extension.
Your thinking of Jamaica.
This line is what the current M line used to do by going over the J Myrtle station, and going straight down Myrtle Ave to Jay Street (and further before that). All before my time, but the line between Myrtle and Metro had two lines on that section. One ran like the M does today, and the other went over the Broadway Line, and down to Brooklyn.
Interesting the Myrtle El cars were not only wood, but narrower, like IRT cars. So at Fresh Pond, Forest, etc, there was a gap between the platform and the train, because both size cars had to run there. They put little stationary gap fillers under the doorways of the cars to make a bit "less" of a gap.
Oh, you're right. My mistake!
Nice! Very nice!
I was lucky enough to have ridden the lower portion of the el during the last two years or so of operation, and took black and white shots out the front window and some platform views, but these are really something else.
Such wonderful archival historic views of station areas and structure.
Thank you!
That we should only have these same kinds of photos for the els that were gone by 1940!
Nice! Very nice!
I was lucky enough to have ridden the lower portion of the el during the last two years or so of operation, and took black and white shots out the front window and some platform views, but these are really something else.
Such wonderful archival historic views of station areas and structure.
Thank you!
We should only have such a selection of photos for the els that were gone by 1940!
Where was this picture taken?
http://www.nycrail.com/images/contributed/littman_myrtle_el/el21.jpg
Theres only one place it can be (I think) Bridge-Jay.
WOW.
And HOW did he manage to photograph the station & streets
in such an EMPTY moment?
Luck is filming the interior of an empty moving redbird.
Besides his normal C/R duties, turns out SubBus had to contend with a half dozen SubTalkers who coincidentially were riding his s/b #2 train last night.
Here's the longish post (for insomniacs only):
The evening of railfanning started when Mike, Nelson, Jeremy and I rode up to to 205th Street/Norwood. we took three different lines to get there (with equally varied equipment): #2 to Columbus Circle; C to 145th Street (R-32); D to the end of the line. We reversed our course but bailed out at 72nd Street to grab a bite to eat. Jeremy, however, went on to 57th Street where he was supposed to meet up with some other friends. Over dinner, we phoned David who met up with us about 20 minutes later. Shortly thereafter I receive a call from Jeremy who wants to meet up with us for further railfanning as he was unable to hook up with his friends. Met him at 59th Street and went to Times Square to catch a Queensbound N.
We decided to ride some Redbirds considering that Jeremy is a NY Mets fan (caught one at Queensboro Plz as another of the Flushing line GOs was in affect). Of course we HAD to stop at Willets Pt./Shea for some views of the yard and then proceed to Main Street. Unfortunately, we were not able to double back on Redbirds as they are a rare breed during GOs.
We returned to Times Square where we jumped on a #2 and rode it down to Chambers Street. David suggested we could get some rare R-142 shots as they were being re-routed through the South Ferry loop. So we boarded a #1 R-62 and took it down to SF. Jeremy lucked out with some video-cam footage of a 142 consist moving through the loop. We jumped on the next #1 and took it to Chambers Street. We crossed over and meet up with Brian, who was told to mee us on the s/b platfrom (from an earlier phone message from DG). With the exception of David and Brian -- who were planning to do the loop again -- the rest of us were headed home. However, as we progressed to Brooklyn I recognized the voice of the Conductor as our 'Transit Professional (RTO Division)', SubBus Mike! (Talk about coincidences!). David and Brian bailed at Nevins Street to head back uptown so Brian could experience a 142 trip through South Ferry. Since there was holding lights at Nevins, they were able to chat with Mike briefly (the rest of us were in the lead car). Jeremy bailed at his 'home' stop of Grand Army Plaza (told him to wave to our C/R). Mike, Nelson and I got to Flatbush/Nostrand near about 1:15 a.m. and Mike was finishing his tour. I introduced everyone to Mike and we headed out as it was one of the LONGEST evenings of riding the rails that I'd done in a good while (can't do that TOO often!).
Too bad that Harry and Larry (Notchit) couldn't have been there for the unusual circumstances of the evening.
The evening of railfanning started when Mike, Nelson, Jeremy and I rode up to to 205th Street/Norwood...
You forgot David Cole, and it was an R-38 A train to 145 St.
Funny, the trip sounds a lot shorter than it actually was ;)
Dang! Forgot about Dave Cole. Right, he bailed AFTER we did the Flushing line.
Heh... I would have liked to have stuck around, but it was already past 11:30 PM when I got off the (1) train at Penn Station. (Luckily, I didn't have to wait around long for the next NJT train to Hamilton, where I had parked my car.) I finally got home around 2:00 AM! Sounds like you guys had a good time after I bailed.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Heya...Greenberger and I had a good time going through the loop again. Seeing SubBus before that was a nice treat. We both got back up to the Upper West Side of Manahattan a little after 2:00am. I had a great time and it was nice meeting up with all of you, even if it was only for a few minutes. Once I'm settled into the city in a few weeks, I hope we can plan and execute many more SubTalk gathering/trips since you guys have a lot of knowlege that I don't have and I'd love to hear it "out on the road." Till next time...
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
You missed a big chunk, believe it or not.
After we got our shots at South Ferry, I called Brian to find out where he was. He was still in Great Neck, so we rode through the GO without him first: back to Chambers on the 1, then on a 2 to Nevins, and across to the other side. We were going to wait for a 2, but one of the few R-62's with bench seats opened up in front of us first, so we took a 4 one stop before getting off and waiting again for the 2. Up to Wall, change ends (crews were apparently dropping back at Wall), and back south. While waiting for the lineup at Bowling Green, the C/R momentarily opened the doors without making an announcement -- and that was enough time for someone to hop onto our car. The T/O was kind enough to let him off, since he was trying to get to Brooklyn. Then, at South Ferry, the gap fillers extended even though we weren't stopping. At Chambers, we got off and crossed over and Brian arrived a few minutes later.
What an evening!
Geez, I'm slipping in my old age!. Dave, thanks for the post. I forgot about the bench seating (yes, they are more comfortable). NYCT should consider replacing as many of the seating on their 62 fleet with the straight bench.
Better yet, salvage the remaining Redbird benches and use them. They're still the most comfortable seats in the fleet.
Did you get the car number for the R62 with bench seating. I would love to see that.
Adam
I don't recall the numbers, but the cars have Yankees stickers in place of the MTA logo.
There are 5 of them. IIRC, they are one unit. Mr Slant 40 could probably give you the car numbers.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe they are #1511-12-13-14-15.
wayne
That sounds about right...being a Mets fan, almost every time I rode the #4 train last week, I got that #*^#)^#*(& consist...:)
...and they all have black floors. Most pleasing.
Peace,
AMDEE
Don't all (or nearly all) R-62's have black floors?
They do *NOW*.
Peace,
ANDEE
THANK YOU...Wayne...you can always be depended upon.
Peace,
ANDEE
The car #s with the bench seating is 1586-90.
Thank you, I have made note of that and will be on the lookout for it.
wayne
I thought someone mentioned in an earlier thread that there were only three(?) consecutive cars now with the bench seats.
Does anyone have a photo online of these new "bench seats", I don't think I've ever seen them on the R62's.
It didn't even occur to me to take a picture Saturday night, believe it or not. The last time I saw them was in 1992, on the shuttle (track 3, I believe). When the R-62's move to the 3, I'll be riding them a lot more often and I'll keep your request in mind.
What do the bench seats look like?
Bench seats! They're a bit less contoured (and comfortable) than the Redbird seats, but they're nothing like the R-40 sticks. They have the same bright colors as the other R-62's, but there are only (IIRC) four sections on each large bench.
Picture in your minds eye bucket seats.
Now take a hot iron, insteade of doing your shirts, smooth out the buckets, until you have a bench. One size fits all. Less discomfort, less stress.
My fat ass suffers from "hangover" in the buckets.
Thats the beauty of R/ 32,36,38,40,42s and bye gone redbirds.
avid
Given that the 2 line runs armadillos, how are you
able to hear the VOICE of the C/R if it's presumably
a computerized announcer?
The conductor is able to make manual announcements.
The C/R has the ability to 'over-ride' the computer announcements...it's all a matter of pushing the right buttons...
And this C/R did override the announcement at Borough Hall, replacing N with W and directing passengers to Manhattan-bound service on the 4 platform.
That's why he's Da Best...:)
I used to be the Deli Best.
Hahahahaha
>>> The evening of railfanning started when Mike, Nelson, Jeremy and I rode up to to 205th Street/Norwood. we took three different lines to get there (with equally varied equipment) <<<
When I read the foregoing, I was expecting this to turn into a logic problem in which, from a list of clues, we would have to guess which railfan took which line with which equipment. :-)
Tom
hey Doug!
You forgot about the C/R on the first R-142 who didn't know how to make manual announcements, and then took "being held" at Bowling Green as an opportunity to open the doors momentarily. Forgot the bewildered individual we tried to help understand that this train was not going to Brooklyn?
Here's a question someone could help us with since i don't think we figured out what the answer was...
The 2 G.O had the train reversing at Wall Street on the 4 to head to the west side. Were they doing "crew changes" there for this? was it an "extra" crew change? The southbound T/O arrived in the last car fairly quickly once we arrived(who by the way, if i remember correctly at that hour of the AM, probably could have held her own in the J-Lo twins shot?!)
Oh yeah. I MIGHT just share THOSE pictures with SubBus! LOL! Yummy! ;)
My second time through (with Brian), the new T/O walked into the new lead car the moment the doors opened. Obviously the crews did drop back at Wall.
Too bad the TA doesn't offer official "Hooters" style uniforms...
Speaking of which... Did you see that Hooters has bought a controlling interest in a small charter airline?
Assuming that the mechanics of this GO haven't changed...
An extra crew signs on at Bowling Green sometime between 2200 and 2230 and deadheads to Wall St. When the first train arrives, the arriving crew leaves the train. The extra crew takes the train south to Flatbush and then back north to White Plains. The crew that just arrived at Wall St waits for the next train and oes the same. the cycle continues with crews falling back at Wall St until the original extra crew finally leaves the Bronx on the last train of the GO. They arrive at Wall St and then deadhead back to Bowling Green to sign out.
What happens to the 3 trains that are supposed to reach Nevins NB at 2236, 2248, and 0825? The 0825 is probably one of the first trains sent through after the GO, if not the first. The 2236 and 2248 may simply be cancelled, though that (along with the GO affecting the 2) would leave a large gap in express service. Perhaps they're sent out early, back-to-back just before the GO begins, and held at 14th and Chambers.
Sorry. Silly me. The GO running is the opposite of what I described. I've never run this version of it, so cannot be sure where the trains end up.
Well same idea...the crews probably drop back at Wall St instead of Flatbush or 241st...
Sometimes the announcement comes, 'use all doors.' I don't get it. I mean, I've never seen a set of doors on a subway car that people are just refusing to use.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"I've never seen a set of doors on a subway car that people are just refusing to use."
The C/R means, if there's a big crowd, walk down a few doors to where there's less of a crowd, and enter there. Of course, often by the time you do that he's closed the door in your face, which is why no one listens.
You didn't transfer from the W to the 7 last night :).
Passengers have a habit of lingering around the bases of staircases instead of spreading out across the platform. In the case of Queensboro Plaza when the 7 terminates there, everyone is trying to cram into the car at the top of the stairs, even after there is no more standing room, while the rest of the train has less than ten passengers to a car.
Or like at VCP where people will run like hotcakes
for the last car (nearest the stairs) of an exiting 1 train
and pack it in heavy... and as the train clears out the
station they'll realize there are 9 empty cars before
that one and begin to file through the between-car
doors like soldiers all the way upto the middle (C/R) section.
Commonly, you'll have someone pass you on the stairs going
up into the station and in the time it takes me to purchase
a token, drop in the coin slot and leisurely walk the entire
platform up to the lead car, by the time we reach 231st,
that SAME person who RAN past me on the stairs will be entering
the SAME car all out of breath and stumbling.
Thanks to SubTALK for teaching me the art of HOLDING lights.
;)
It is sometimes observed at stations where customers enter at one end of a long platform, that they get on the first car of the train, then go through the storm doors looking for seats in the other cars.
It's not nearly as common on the subway as it is on commuter rail. When it happens on the subway, it can lead to significant delays.
Particularly during rush hours and/or on heavy volume rutes, they announce "use all available doors" so people don't try to crowd in one set of doors and push each other around and to reduce the chance of injury. There are people who are TOO LAZY to use the next set of doors, especially at 53/Lex, and they want to barge their way into a train so they don't have to wait for a next one.
I understand that stainless steel is much more cost effective, than painting, but why no color at all?? On the R40-42, it would be nice to see the old racoon paint scheme, and on the R62's, how about a blue stripe? Something needs to be done, the subways are growing uglier and uglier as the days go on. What are your thoughts on the topic?
Forgot to mention: Yes I understand the MTA is in a fiscal crisis right now, before anyone mentions it.
Actually, you may be interested in an old post of mine to this board....here it is:
______________________________________________________________________
Re: Color & Scheme Fantasies
Posted by J-TrainTony on Tue Dec 11 18:57:02 2001, in response to Color & Scheme Fantasies, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 8 17:35:20 2001.
Slap me and call me silly, but the MTA silver/blue stripe was beautiful...
But I think the flat colors were more fitting for a subway (with the dirt and steel dust and all)
I'd paint the cars (if we're talking about R-10 thru R-27/30) the following-
Dark Grey for the Eastern Division BMT
because it's so deliciously drab.
Maroon for the IRT 7 Ave. lines, and Dark Green for the Lex. lines.
Olive Drab for the Southern Division BMT.
Light Grey for BMT Broadway (incl. Sea Beach and West End)
Tan for the Flushing IRT. (would go good with the concrete El)
Blue-Gray for the IND Crosstown (G)
Dark Blue for the IND 8th. Ave.
Sepia (or a nice Burnt Orange) for the 6th Ave. & Queens Blvd. IND
Last but not least, Black for any shuttle lines (think that would look REALLY cool)
obviously, I put a little too much thought into this :)
I actually would like some feedback on this, if any of you don't mind.
p.s. The silver of the R-32, 38, and especially the dark silver of the R-68 is class, in my humble opinion :)
_____________________________________________________________________
In other words, I agree with you completely. Obviously, though, since all of the cars you could put these schemes on are gone, its just a fantasy.
Nice idea, Tony!
A scheme I think would look better on the Eastern Division is something lively to lift the drabness - like two tone blue.
I always liked the two-tone white and turquoise of the R-10 A trains from 1961- the funny thing is, when they put the R-10's on the Eastern Division, they painted them a drab dark grey.
That being said, the only decent paintjobs I can remember on the Eastern Division were the MTA blue and silver.
The dark gray (actually two-tone gray with an orange beltrail that probably wasn't visible too often by the early 1960s) was the original R-10 paint scheme from 1948-49. The white/turquoise paint scheme is from later than 1961 -- 1966, if memory serves. It's based on, but not identical to, the World's Fair paint scheme in which the Corona R-33S and R-36 cars arrived.
David
I knew that the two tone grey with the orange beltrail was the original R-10 scheme, I just didn't realize that that was still on the cars when they went to the East. Thanks, David :)
The colors that you proposed would help to jazz up the appearance of the subway.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, wouldn't they? It was just a rough idea I came up with back in the late 70's, when everything was dark and dreary. Unfortunately, those color schemes would only work on R-1 through R-30, but oh well. :)
I've always said that they should use the old car designs-in my opinion, simple is better, and, much, much cheaper. The money they could save by using the old car desings (which used simpler, cheaper, and BETTER technology) could be used to improve the old lines and even build new ones. Plus, to my eyes, the old cars just look better...I haven't liked a subway car design since the R-40.
The R-142s are the best looking of the cars since the R-40 since they have a dash of color to some of them. The R-143s don't look too shabby either. If they would put a dash of color on the sides of a bland looking stainless steel car, it would jazz it up to some extent.
#3 West End Jeff
Even before the fiscal crisis... I think in general that folks were so happy to have the NYCTA fleet free of graffiti they don't care what color the cars are. I do think the pure stainless steel look is a bit plain, but I'd really like to see them make RTO live up to the name once again.
Wayne
Certain lines in Japan, had their particular color car, I remember riding on them in the 60s, and according the the Kawasaki web site, are still making those trainsets in those colors today.
Building trainsets in different colors for different lines kinda limits your fleet. A nice universal color scheme seems to be a nice idea, but the arnines had the best color scheme of all.
Elias
The LU uses the line color for the car interior's grab poles, and often the seating moquette features it as well. Exceptions are the Jubilee Line (nobody likes grey), Northern (only the armrests are black as well as some seat trim), and the District, which they are planning to retrofit, they've already done so to D78 stock #7008-17008-8008, with the trailer (17008) getting the full treatemnt.
The Bakerloo line's use of brown in the car interior is particuarly nice.
wayne
I must confess I rarely look - the only time I look at the poles on the arriving train is on the part of the Circle Paddington - Victoria - Tower Hill when yellow yells "Circle" at me. (Even at Edgware Road I'm always slightly suspicious what looks like a Circle Line train will go to Hammersmith.) I have more confidence in the little displays telling me which train is about to arrive.
It doesn't make a lot of difference what colour the insides are on a tube line - they all go to the same place most of the time and even when they don't the insides won't tell you that. (Eg you can't tell which Bakerloo line trains only go to Queen's Park, or more importantly you can't tell which branch a Northern Line or Metropolitan train is on).
The thing which allows LU to theme trains like this is the relative separation of the lines. The H&C and Circle will mix as will the Met Main Line and the East London Section, but otherwise I can't think of any real mixes which take place frequently or which would be useful.
Well, maybe the'll start painting the cars again; once the graffiti starts setting in from the new fiscal crisis.
A lot of things might happen with this new fiscal crisis, but I'm almost certain that graffiti won't be one of it.
The city will try to do everything possible to remain clean and keep bringing in the tourist dollars.
Quite true. I believe the MTA already gave up their precious concept of 'Deferred Maintenance'.
>>>The city will try to do everything possible to remain clean and keep bringing in the tourist dollars. <<<
True, to the determent of the outer boroughs.
Peace,
ANDEE
We (ok I don't live in New York but when it come to the Subway I am one through and through) have to do something to publicize the outer boroughs so they can get their fair share of tourists. That ought to make the TA take notice and realize there is more to New York than Manhattan. Good God, there are hundreds of tourist attractions in the others boroughs. I remember as a kid we used to go to the Bronx Zoo, the Browne House in Queens, the Homestead in Prospect Park, and on and on. Maybe the borough Presidents can get on board. Notice I didn't mention Coney Island? Well, I decided to stand down and not show my prejudice in favor of the place, but you get the picture. There are a lot of things to see in the other areas of the city.
Yes, Fred. you are correct, but the powers that be don't go out of their way to publicize them.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is very noticeable that every tourist guide in the bookshops over here has a pathetic cut down version of the subway map, showing Manhattan, half the Bronx, Brooklyn Heights, Williamsburg and Long Island City.
It's as if most of the City didn't exist!
No, it's as if most of the city isn't directly relevant to the typical tourist.
Which is the case. The handful of outer borough locations that tourists do tend to visit can be referenced in a footnote.
That's not the sort of tourism that appeals to me. If I were a tourist in NYC, I'd be inclined to throw a dart at a subway map, go to the nearest subway station, and walk around for a while. But most tourists either would find that boring or would (incorrectly) assume it's dangerous.
That's not the sort of tourism that appeals to me. If I were a tourist in NYC, I'd be inclined to throw a dart at a subway map, go to the nearest subway station, and walk around for a while.
Quite! When I was in Paris last, I decided to ride the 11 train out to Mairie des Lilas because it was there - found that les Lilas is a lovely little town, went to the tabac for a beer and generally found it quite a relaxing way to spend some time!
If I were a tourist in NYC, I'd be inclined to throw a dart at a subway map, go to the nearest subway station, and walk around for a while. But most tourists either would find that boring or would (incorrectly) assume it's dangerous.
LOL, I could just see an "innocent" tourist to New York, camera around the neck, randomly riding the subway, and getting off at Myrtle-Broadway, or New Lots Avenue to walk around looking for the "tourist" sites.
I guess I'm not the typical tourist either. When I am in different cities, my idea of a good time is riding a different subway, driving along a train line, etc, at least for one day during my stay anyway, in the new city.
For Example, when I was in San Francisco, of course I did ride the Cable Cars like all the tourists do, but how many "normal" tourists can say (or want to say) they rode BART to Riverside, or one of the LR Lines to the suburbs of SF.
In San Diego, I spent a whole day at the different rail stations throughout the area, and all along the coast.
The same for Miami - and their "elevated route" (for lack of a better name for it) does run through some questionable areas - certainly not tourist areas.
In the course of my "railfanning" tourist adventures, I have accidentally found and been through the bad neighborhoods in San Francisco, New Orleans, Miami, San Diego, and even Orlando, and many other places. But that's what makes it interesting. Sure, I do all the normal touristy things in the course of my stays also, but I feel I experienced a bit more than the average tourist (or more than most would want to).
Of course only railfans would do such a thing.
If I was a tourist railfan in New York, and knew nothing about the system, I guess I would choose the A line to ride (again, pretending I have no prior knowledge of the system, and just had a map in front of me). It's the most famous line New York has, and just from the map, I guess I would choose it because the Rockaway portion of it would certainly seem intriguing because of the water.
Interestingly enough, I picked up a Brooklyn visitors guide and map (80 pages) at the NYC Visitors Center at 46th & 7th Ave :) It's quite good!
--Mark
There are plenty of tourists in Rome and they have tremendous graffiti on the Metro, especially line B.
The system being ugly is your opinion.
The system is meant to transport people primarily, not for people to gawk at. (That's where the graffiti in the tunnel comes in)
The MTA already has their 'Arts for Transit' program and I think it's doing OK. The renovations they are doing for the stations that need it are amazing. The blue stripe was removed from the R44, R46 and R32 because of maintenance problems.
I dont gawk at the system. The subways were designed to blend in with NYC, they dont anymore. The subways are becoming more ugly every day, renovations, ect. Leave the subways bare and cold.
What a great idea! Anything to save more tax dollars...
And I wasn't singling out you on the 'gawking' part of it. We all have at some point.
I got it!!!
A paint stripe like the MNR/LIRR M-1,2,3,4,6 series would represent the train line the train is on.
This would be used on the R-44, R-46, R-62, R-68, R-142, & R-143.
Blue-A,C,E
Orange-B,D,F,Q,V
Brown-J,M,Z
Yellow-N,Q,R,W
Gray-L
Red-1,2,3,9
Green-4,5,6
Purple-7
Black-S (shuttle)
bring back the railfan window too !!
a real railfan window !!
That's one of the reasons I said I haven't liked a subway car design since the R-40...and THAT one had an AWESOME railfan window, the biggest of them all!!!
Biggest? I don't think so. Tallest, yes, but narrowest. Good for child-adult railfan pairs. Bad for adult-adult railfan pairs.
Right. Imgaine what it would be like in 10 years trying to get that window on a "Farewell to the Slant-40" fantrip ....
--Mark
I know right :-(. And I wonder what it would be like once all the cars with great square railfan windows (except for the R40's) the R32, R33, R36, R38, R40/R40M and R42 are gone into history so subtalkers, railfan as much as you can b/c in 10 years or so, they all will be gone [with the exception of R62A's].
Well, I agree that it is getting bland on the exterior myself however, as you said its a cost effective move so we just have to deal with it; soon the last of the painted cars [the Redbirds] will fade into history :-(. I would like to see the R40M, R42 and R44 back in the blue stripe [on the belt only], R46's look fine the way they are now.
The R-44s can go to a blue stripe without any added cost. That belt isn't made of stainless steel and has to be painted anyway. It is currently painted gray to match the rest of the car.
I would imagine it's more expensive to mask the car more than once than to mask it once. Yes, the stainless steel sides on the R-44s would only have to be masked once whether the "belly band" is painted Platinum Mist (that silver-gray color NYCT uses) or blue, but the ends would have to be masked twice. Add back the "raccoon eyes" around the Train Operator's window, the sign window, and the cab door window, and the car has to be masked yet again. (Incidentally, though it's a BusTalk subject, the reduction in masking is why the area around the rear door windows and the rearmost "pork chop" windows is now painted white instead of black on NYCT's older RTS buses.)
Additionally, there may be a marginal cost in purchasing various quantities of two or three colors rather than whatever they're purchasing now of one color. Larry Littlefield might be able to answer that one.
David
>>>Add back the "raccoon eyes" around the Train Operator's window...<<<
Wasn't that originally a safety feature, to reduce glare? If so why did they do away with it?
It looked cool but, as I recall, it did have a functional purpose,
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never heard that it was done for safety. As far as I am aware, it was strictly aesthetic. As for why it was done away with, read my previous post about masking and buying different colors of paint.
David
And its showing some rust, the carbon part is rotting away and it looks tacky if you ask me; and you're right it won't be so hard and costly to paint the R44 belt rail. I wouldn't bring back the over the top light blue paint or the raccoon eyes that was once there.
And the 46s could have the blue stripe on the front of the car.
This is a fairly large map, you may have to download it and try it in a different application, but it looks ok on my computer.
I don't see no map. Sorry, try again :(
My Map was probably to large for older browsers/operating systems to handle correctly. If clicking on this link does not work, right click on the link and save it to disk. Then if you have another program such as PhotoShop or something, you should be able to see it in that.
Elias
Thank you! That's much better.
I did a right click and "save target as" and got it also. I'm running Windowsa XP. The mnap looks great!
Chuck Greene
I am still not getting it.
The problem is not the size of the map, you have a horribly slow responding server.
I guess I'm spoiled with the broadband connection, but I don't want to bother waiting for your server to respond.
Can't you host it someplace else? I can host it for you if you want.
Gee... That's Funny... On my system it comes up INSTANTLY!
: )
Yes, you may put it up on a different server if you wish, or it can go on Dave's server (under the fantasy maps if he is interested in it. It does need much more work on it, and I probably can reduce the size of the file somewhat.
We do have borad band, but it isn't all that borad of a broad band, and we do have 20 computers using that same connection.
Elias
Elias---
One thing you may wish to consider is a Queens-Bronx direct service.
It goes much faster as a straight download. Try it that way.
Interesting map. One thing I like is the iea of extending the letter system as M1, M2, etc. for branch services. I think the single-letters-only scheme lacks something.
That is how I tried.
It doesn't even start downloading. The download progress window pops up, but no data is ever received.
I tried it again just now.
I downloaded it, but no application can open it.
It's a GIF, it should open in Explorer or NS or Paint.
In Explorer, I get a red x. My MS Photo Editor is misconfigured, and I don't have Photoshop.
Do a right click, and do a "Save As Target". When the file finishes loading, your computer will give you a sound, and you can hit the open button and the file will open for you. Good Luck!
Chuck Greene
BTW, while he waits for the server to respond and the download to begin, he should go ahead and plan for his retirement and make sure he will have enough time to peruse the map.
He's not going to be able to read it at any earlier time!
As much as I hate to agree w/you. You are right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Took 46 seconds to download it to my machine. Was he planning on retiring that soon?
Am I the only one here who does see the map inline? (Opera 7.0 beta build 2577)
I had no trouble seeing it inline, which is why I went ahead and posted it that way first. Some older browsers have difficulty with big gifs but I can see it in MSIE6, NS7 and Opera7.
I posted it as soon as I had maide it, but I see that it takes up many more pixels than I expected, and it will be more readable in a smaller size, so I'll rebuild it and substitute the rebuild for the original on my server.
Elias
My problem was the server never responded. I didn't want to bother waiting.
My problem was the server never responded. I didn't want to bother waiting. Elias sent me the map through e-mail.
I did that, and had no problem downloading the file; I just can't open it. It's 412K, right?
I think the single-letters-only scheme lacks something.
Yup... it lacks enough letters to run the railroad. I like double letters too... (AA), (QJ) etc. Doesn's sound so much like a bus that way!
Elias
Suggestion: Your map ois excellent. Add a description of your new routes to your map liek the description on the current official map.
Damn it.
Can someone e-mail this map to me?
I'm not going to wait to download from his crap-ass server. I will put it up on my own as a public service.
I can if you dont mind it as a BMP file
I have a problem which I think is different from the others who have tried to see the map:
I can open it from the page but I can't download it!
UMM...I have windoze me and 512mb ram and IE 6.0 and I still can't see it.
Peace,
ANDEE
In general, a really good map. Lots of very good ideas. Here's some ways I think it could be improved. Some of these are questions rather than comments.
1) The direct Queens-Bronx service as I mentioned in a prior post
2) See if it is possible to send another line out to Rockaway, as the N would be a super-long run stretching from Coney Island into Manhattan as far up as 60th St, and then coming back further South than CI into Rockaways!
3) Why not just extend the Q into Rockaways with the N so one could take FR and the other RP
4) I'm unsure of whether the W or the N is going over the bridge, or if both are.
5) Is it safe to assume that any of the new trackage you propose would be subway rather than elevated? {except for the part that uses the LIRR-ROW paralleling Woodhaven}
6) Would the M1 {north end}, H1, M1 {south end}, E, and M2 all end at the city borders?
7) I remember you saying you wanted to extend the 6 line into Co-op City with the cross-town lines {in this case the M3 and M4.}
8) I assume there would be less trains on the Lexington line, thereby making legitmate the extension of the 6 to Bowling Green/South Ferry.
2) See if it is possible to send another line out to Rockaway, as the N would be a super-long run stretching from Coney Island into Manhattan as far up as 60th St, and then coming back further South than CI into Rockaways!
Clearly this run is too long for one crew. I'd probably change crews enroute. Break it at say 57th Street or something.
3) Why not just extend the Q into Rockaways with the N so one could take FR and the other RP
I think that that is too much service for the Rockaways. Alternate (N) trains might do FR and RP.
4) I'm unsure of whether the W or the N is going over the bridge, or if both are.
The (W) and the (R) are now using Queensboro Bridge, and the (Q) and the (N) are using 63rd Street. That makes the (R) (W) trains Local via Tunnel and (N) (Q) Express via Bridge.
6) Would the M1 {north end}, H1, M1 {south end}, E, and M2 all end at the city borders?
All of these trains terminate at the Nassau County Lion. Aslan said so, that's why.
7) I remember you saying you wanted to extend the 6 line into Co-op City with the cross-town lines {in this case the M3 and M4.}
No, the (6) is untouched. The (M3) and (M4) enter CoOp-City from Gun Hill Road. The Ninth Avenue Line follows Tremont bending south (not north as shown on the map... (since the map has no land mass to the south) into the Throgs Neck Neighborhood.
I made no changes to the Lexington, (though I did not bother to show all services for the purposes of this map, which only is attempting to show route alignments at this time.) And No, I did not build a Bronx-Queens Service, nor did I build a Manhattan-Staten Island service. I may think about those.
Clearly I'll need to do some refinements to this map, and will someday post it to my website (on Tripod) where I will make it a fully interactive masterpiece.
Elias
Great Map! Needs stations on it to make it clearer, but I can see the idea!
By the way - your Metropolitan Av Line - is it on Metropolitan Av at the same time as the Canarsie Line? or does it simply cross onto it using Grand St or something?
By the way - your Metropolitan Av Line - is it on Metropolitan Av at the same time as the Canarsie Line? or does it simply cross onto it using Grand St or something?
The (L) spends such little time on Metropolitan Avenue (one station at Graham Avenue) They are concurrent at that place.
Elias
Does anyone think that 3 service runs too much, or too little, mostly concerning the New Lots and Upper Lenox lines? And should some 3's be short turned at Utica Avenue?
3 train service is fine to me but that as well as the 2 could use some extra weekend service [Redbird's perhaps for 2's ;-)]. Between 96 St and 110 St forget it that should be redesigned to go faster b/c it is SLOW! Short turning 3's at Utica is not necessary since it is not that frequent to do so plus it may interfere with 4 service.
I think the #3 service is just fine. It is the #2 service you should complain about outside of rush hours.
AMTRAK MODELIN
I agree, the 2 is much more of a problem. The 2 just seems to be too long and to heavily used. I'm no expert, but I think that the line could use more agressive supervision, like the 4.
Short turning the 3 at Utica seems to defeat the purpose of the southern portion of the line--to serve the Livonia corridor. For all of the trouble of short turning the 3 you might as well not run it, and just use more 2's and run the 4 local after Franklin.
Not to mention that the 2 doesn't have as much service as it could and should have, weekends in particular every 10 minutes ALL DAY it should be increased to every 8 minutes. It is too long and its mostly local which makes things worse and a long for the passengers. When it lost express service last year until Sept 15, it just made riding the 2 seem like it was a journey.
Exactly.Riding the #2 train from the bronx local then getting it local in manhatttan is a nitemere.We need bronx express #2 service. Can anyone tell me why I saw A bronx <2> in the morning leaving 238st.
AMTRAK MODELIN
Because the R142s are programmed N/B 2 express in the Bronx.
Well, there was a proposal to run 2 trains and E 238 St 5's express via the Bronx thru express but that fell through. Since the Lex Av line is busier (ok its overcrowded), it seems to get more preference over the 7 Av line [the 5 has the Bronx thru express and the 4 & 5 is express in Brooklyn while the 2 & 3 is stuck via local in the Bronx(2) and Brooklyn 2,3].
In Brooklyn the tracks are aligned to force the current arrangement. Having 7th Avenue trains run express or Lexington trains run local would require the use of crossovers, adding to needless delays. And since the switches are only south of Nevins, Lexington trains can never stop at Hoyt, and 7th Avenue trains can never skip it on the express tracks.
By that reasoning, there should be no direct service between the Nostrand branch and the East Side. (In fact, I agree with that. It's an easy transfer at Franklin.)
And as long as 5 trains are running between the Nostrand branch and the East Side, they can switch to the express track at Nevins just as easily as at Franklin, so there could be direct service between local stations and the East Side without causing any additional disruption. (I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but it's an option.)
Why would you crowd three trains onto the local and have only one express? This is unbalanced. Do those local stops really have so many passengers?
The 2, 3, and Flatbush 5 are already crowded onto the local through Rogers Interlocking.
I'm not suggesting that it be done. I'm just pointing out that it could be done without much difficulty. Balance is meaningless: the questions are whether the local-express ratio is too low (I don't know if it is) and whether providing direct no-transfer service between local stations and the East Side is worthwhile at the expense of delaying through passengers.
I still think East Side trains should be kept away from Flatbush so West Side service in Manhattan can be increased.
There are other ways to increase West Side service than messing with Flatbush
1. Short turn trains at South Ferry, Chambers St, or 14 St (acting like a Brooklyn Bridge or a Bowling Green of the west side)
2. Start more trains at Utica/New Lots
1. Yes, there could be more service from South Ferry, running to any number of north terminals. Chambers is not an option and 14th is not an option if any through service is express.
2. That's exactly what I'd do with the diverted 5's: start them at New Lots. There isn't room for more 3 service from New Lots since the 2/3 has to share space with the 5 at Rogers.
I think some diverted 5's already start at New Lots, but most of them start at Utica (they have to switch from Local to Express at Utica when starting at New Lots) What about starting more 2's at New Lots(some do already) And then there is Atlantic Avenue(which was used to turn 4/5 trains before)
Chambers could be used if timed correctly (although the train could also terminate at Chambers and go through the SF loop to turn around), South Ferry has the problem of not being able to use all of the doors, hopefully not too many people are going to SF.
1. I guess that wouldn't be such a bad idea running some West Side expresses to SF but you CANNOT short turn them at 14 St and I don't think Chambers is such a hot idea as well, Flatbush Av is not such a good terminal to begin with when the 5 runs there so they need to build something south Of Flatbush;a turnaround similar to 179 St on the F.
2. I don't know how much extra trains could start at Utica Av/New Lots since some 2's and 5's already start/terminate from there in the rush so you can't really squeeze much more in there.
Nah, just a nice big loop:
From Newkirk Avenue Southbound:
single track tunnel diverging to the West South of Farragut Road, running cross-block then under Glenwood Rd, E27th St, (possible station Campus Road), then gradually curving through 180 degrees under Brooklyn College's campus and back North onto Nostrand Avenue using the Eastern platform of the current Flatbush Avenue station. The Western platform and track could be used for train storage or layups.
That's not such a bad idea but in a way you might be taking a risk in reducing station capacity at Flatbush Av, its a VERY busy station and reducing it to 1 track/1 station; particularly when 5 trains run there isn't the best of ideas but it would be better than what is currently used to turn trains though.
It would probably increase capacity as it would turn it into in effect just any other through station, as opposed to a poorly designed stub terminal with no tail tracks. Unless there are BIG problems with loadings there, any number of trains which wouldn't be able to run through that station would have the same problem at every station on the line.
I know that can't happen so I see its fine just the way it is [well its forced like this before Nevins so there is no 2nd option].
They should run some #2 trains express during rush hour. The #2 train in the Bronx can be a long local drag at times.
#3 West End Jeff
If all 5 trains and some 2 trains run express in the Bronx, how much service are you leaving over for the local stations? People use them, you know.
That is why more #3's should go to the Bronx, they could either be the Bronx Expresses(giving 7th Avenue riders express service in the Bronx) or they could be the Bronx locals (while some #2s(for about 1 hour) and all #5s run express)
That's why the proposal for making 2's express failed, lots of people use the local stations and would leave passengers only for Dyre Av trains, which wouldn't be right. It IS a long local drag but that's the way it is and don't expect the MTA to flip the 2 and 5 for the forseeable future.
Actually it did not go through because at the last minute, the Pelham Parkway area got their local politician to complain to the MTA about it. There were maps with the new service pattern inside trains. It was a last minute cancellation.
Did they ever hear of making some #5 trains local in the Bronx on the White Plains Road line in addition to making some #2 expresses.
#3 West End Jeff
What might be a fun idea would be extending the 3-line beyond New Lots, adding a third track for peak direction express service and run the 4 on it as the express. :-D
I agree, the 2 is much more of a problem. The 2 just seems to be too long and to heavily used. I'm no expert, but I think that the line could use more agressive supervision, like the 4.
Short turning the 3 at Utica seems to defeat the purpose of the southern portion of the line--to serve the Livonia corridor. For all of the trouble of short turning the 3 you might as well not run it, and just use more 2's and run the 4 local after Franklin.
I like the current level of service.
2 little.
Leave the 3 train alone. It is fine the way it is. The only thing I would do is extend its northern terminal, but all I can do is dream......
The only thing I would do is extend its northern terminal
To where?
You mean extend as in platform lengthening?
Probably up onto a bridge over the Harlem River at about 155th St, through the former El tunnel and onto the Jerome Avenue El on the leads south of 167th St.
or create a new El to W 195 St Bronx
On which streets would you put the El?
I guess University Avenue would be one
I was planning on sending (about)6-7 (3) specials (some deadheading from Lenox Yard to Chambers St or 14 St or even to Utica Avenue) to 238 St during rush hours (extended version of 9/11). I will show you my schedule later. Plus there will be (3) shuttle service at night, I am thinking that the #3 should be run more like the #5, cut service from Lenox to New Lots at around 10:20, then run shuttle service S/B. N/B trains can return from New Lots until around 11:05, then N/B shuttle service begins at 135 St at around 12:05 am. #2 service will be helped by the #3 (some may even run Bronx Express)
I agree I think 3 is ok ,but look for it to get headway adjustments as the gentrification of the New Lots area Increases.In the last 2 years the neighborhood betwen New Lots and Liberty has changed by 60%.With the influx of people discovering one of the last affordably neighborhoods in NYC
How heavy is the ridership during the rush hurs on the #3 between Utica and New Lots?? Blindly I would assume short turning alternate #3's at Utica would create shorter headways in Downtown Bklyn and Manhattan, but is ridership East of Utica too heavy for such a concept?? Ridership figures anyone, or can someone who rides that line regularly tell me??
the idea would be for some put ins at Utica Avenue(or Chambers St), most heading to E 238 Street-White Plains Road Bronx
The point is moot, I think, since Utica is already pretty much maxxed out as a terminal. Of the Brooklyn IRT terminals, New Lots has the greatest turning capacity.
I rode the 3 quite a few times during the rush to New Lots and short turning 3's is NOT a good thing to do, it has decent ridership and yes it has good ridership all the way to new Lots, people usually use the B6 and B15 after they get off there. The 3 is not frequent enough[every 6-8 minutes] to turn trains at Utica plus some 2's and 5's go there so turning 3's there won't make much sense.
well there is more to that, some 3 put ins will start at Utica, since 3 train service will be increased during rush hour, however not all of them will go to 148 St
But that may cause congestion with 4 trains at Utica.
Why would anyone want to mess with a very good running line.. ONE OF THE BEST RUNNING LINES OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.. unless they have ran out of something to talk about..
Sad... commentary..
N Broadway Line
I think this would be a super idea. Stations would keep their existing names, but corporate names would be added. This would help the MTA plug up its deficit and not have to raise fares a horrific amount (like to $2.25).
In addition to subway stations, I think there should be corporate sponsorships of third-world countries, eg: Pepsi presents New Zanzibar.
The MBTA had proposed doing this with some of the major subway stations in Boston a few years ago. However, as to this point, that hasn't been done. -Nick
I heard that no company was interested.
Heck, how about opening whole lines to sponsorhip for $100 mill?
ie "JP Chase presents The Second Ave Subway"
Hey, get the name right, it's:
"JP Morgan Chase Presents The Second Avenue Subway"
How about the 53rd St/Lexington Av station being renamed CitiGroup Station? After all their HQ is right above it. (you still would not be able to the get an uptown E or V during the morning rush)
The city could make a fortune at Fulton-Bway-Nassau:
"This station is Merrill Lynch. Transfer to the Century 21 local. Transfers also available to the JP Morgan, Macy's, Starbucks, Crunch, Barnes express and Noble local. [TBD: Change for PNC Bank trains to New Jersey.]
Of course, announcements at Atlantic/Pacific might get a little confusing.
Of course, announcements at Atlantic/Pacific might get a little confusing.
Not if the corporate sponsor of this complex is the Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company (today's A&P).
--Mark
How about the 53rd St/Lexington Av station being renamed CitiGroup Station?
Heh, could be a case of trademark infrigement :) There's already a model train layout held there by that very same name :)
--Mark
LOL ... I hate my keyboard!
Infrigement - to freeze dry :)
The word should have been "infringement" :)
Management regrets the error.
--Mark
I liked the first rendering better. I thought you had taken a course in SELKIRKESE. haha
Peace,
ANDEE
Uhm, NO.
"enron stadium" anyone?
Just tax the corporations more. sure, hey'll whine and threaten to leave town, but they do that all day every day as it is.
Hewlett Packard can sponsor the HuntersPoint Av station on the 7; the station already has mosaics with "H.P." on them. ;)
And eBay can take East Broadway -- just pop out the W tiles.
Tightie Bowl could sponser Flushing.
avid
I like this idea (8-)
On the London Underground we could have Blackhorse (Whisky) Road, competing of course with Cutty Sark (Whisky) on the Docklands Light Railway. The there could be Canon Photocopier's Park, and, with a slight change of spelling, Canon Photocopier Street as well. Oxford University Press Circus! And Vauxhall cries out for General Motors sponsorship (it's GM's UK brand name).
Well I complied the info regarding the Switch and Signaling infrastructure I encountered on my latest SEPTA trip on the R2 Wilmington, R6 Norristown, R3 Media, Rt 100 and Rt 101/102.
Starting out, both ARSENAL and PHIL interlockings on the NEC retain their PRR Amber position lights. This brings the list of interlockings on the NEC w/ their original Amber PL's to include HUDSON, DOCK, UNION, NORTH PHILADELPHIA, ARSENAL and PHIL. Both ARSENAL and PHIL had been rebuilt with GRS Model 5 switch machines as had BAWDWIN interlocking and CP-WALNUT.
All the old interlocking towers on the NEC b/t Philly and Wilmington were still standing. These include ARSENAL, BRILL, BALWIN, LAMOKIN, HOOK, BELL and LANDETH.
As a welcome surprise both HOOK (a complete crossover) and LANDETH were still pneumatic interlockings and their A-5 switch machines were freshly painted black. Furthermore, LANDETH "tower" (a brick shanty) and its relay hut still retained their original, albeit faded Penn Central placards.
On the signal gantry at the east end of Wilmington station, there were two PRR pedistal signals for the two main tracks.
The huge 16th St. interlocking where the R6 diverges is also a newly (1980's) installed pneumatic interlocking w/ about 6 double slip switches.
The R6 has been upgraded w/ welded rain, but still supports Rule 251 operation with out cab signals and hand thrown crossovers. SEPTA has been faithful with installing former Reading Company signals whose significant feature are the horizontal "pill" shaped targets for heads w/ only two lights. At Norristown the #2 track had a stacked US&S H-5 high dwarf. Many of the wayside signals were very old US&S 3 unit V target signals. Switches at Norristown were GRS.
The Rt 100 uses cab signaling with only wayside signals at interlockings. All signals are US&S 3 head modular types w/ US&S M-23 dual control switches. The Rt. 101/102 mostly use their original US&S 2/3 light "traffic light" style signal with the rounded case but ther are a number of Safetran modular units around 69th St. and a few new LED jobbers with large backings. All switch machines are US&S M-23's.
The R3 Media has been changed from PRR position light to Reading Co. round target, V alignment, colour light. The line is completely cab signaled. At media there is a new bracket mast with a doll arm where the yard merges into the main line. All switches are US&S M-23's.
An excellent description. Have you written this up in a form that Dave Pirmann can use in the website's permanent ROW descriptions?
I have an extended plan to make a "signaling map" of the northeast. The only problem is that I need someone w/ artistic skills to draw the diagrams.
You might try Peter Autyor of the track map book
Subway-buff has a good idea.
I encourage you to do so. Subway.org will benefit from this. Good work.
Was the Broadway Mall ever wider than it is now? (I'm not talking about the shopping center in Hicksville)
Where is the Broadway Mall?
I assume upper Manhattan?
I don't have any actual dimensions in front of me, but it looks wider in early 20th century photographs.
I've lived in NYC all my life and I have never heard of the Broadway Mall. Obviously not much of a place to see.
It's the island in the middle of Broadway that runs from 60th street north. Various locations have those metal NYC park signs saying "Broadway Mall".
CG
Thanks Charles.
Use of that name must be very recent. Why can't people simply say Broadway-UWS, then everyone knows what the @#$% they are talking about.
I assume that everybody knows where BROADWAY is.
I'm sorry if you don't know what a mall is. I had considered using median, and in retrospect I should have.
I know what a mall is. I would not have expected it to used to describe a median.
I have seen Parks Department signs that refer to the Broadway Malls, Allen Malls (on Allen Street) and Ocean Parkway Malls. I therefore thought it would be the more apropriate word.
I wonder if cousin Jeffrey is behind these signs.
It's the median on Broadway in Upper Manhattan.
Assuming you're talking about Upper Broadway, Manhattan, mall between 60th and 168th Streets, its width is unchanged at least from the turn of the 20th Century when the IRT subway was constructed below. Pictures from that era will prove my point. One difference is that a pair of trolley tracks flanked each side of the mall between 60th and 125th Sts for today's M104 bus route predecessor. The trolleys stopped in Dec 1946 but the tracks remained for years afterward. There were no tracks along Broadway from 125th to 168th Streets; this stretch was served by Fifth Ave. Coach Lines buses.
Why did the IRT build a subway under Lexington Avenue when the Third Avenue line was only a block away, and the Second Avenue Line just one block from that? Wouldn't it have made more sense to build a Madison Avenue subway?
The IRT built the subway where the City specified it should go. The Triborough Plan recommended Lexington Avenue, so that's where the subway went.
David
All right then, so why did the CITY want the line on Lexington
And why did the magical fairy that told the city to build under Lexington want it on Lexington?
Probably too many NIMFY's* on Madison Ave. Isn't that the same reason there's nothing on Fifth?
too many NIMFY's* on Madison Ave
NIMFY!!!! LOL!
People on Madison Avenue have yards?
I think it's more of a case of NOMFS (Not on my front stoop).
Just like NOMFW on 2nd and 3rd Aves?
Not Outside My Front Window
Fifth Avenue isn't a good place for a subway line. South of 59th it's one block from an existing line. Between 59th and 110th it borders on a park, limiting its potential usage (look at CPW). North of 110th it's again one block from an existing line.
This may help explain the concept of the "H" system
http://www.nycsubway.org/dual/hsystem01.html
Why was this letter skipped over?
Because the M(e) train selfishly opposed it?
:0)
Good question. It can't possibly be confused with any number like I or O appropriately. I think the same thing goes for the letters P, X and Y.
I think the same thing goes for the letters P, X and Y.
I believe someone mentioned here once that there was a gray Y on the rollsigns that was meant to be a skip/stop train with the L on the Canarsie Line. I don't know if that is true or not, It's just something I read here once.
I used Y for such a service for the fake conductor announcements I had as a sig when I was called Eugenius D. Train.
I had some fanciful ideas.
I believe someone mentioned here once that there was a gray Y on the rollsigns that was meant to be a skip/stop train with the L on the Canarsie Line.
Any unused letters are in grey (actually more like white) on the rollsigns (At least the R-32s) if they weren't previously used.
U.
I haven't much luck getting links to work, hope this one did.
It didn't but that is probably Tripod's fault
R32's and R38's have all of the unused route letters on rollsigns. On R44's and R46's, there are codes to get every letter of the alphabet but I wonder if we ever have to go back to using double letters, how would they reprogram the signs since there is room for one letter, maybe they might stack one letter on top of the other.
the Pee the Eggs and the Why and the You just wouldn't fit in with the Sea, the Bee or the Are trains. Too cornfusing!
avid
So was your response
And your think your response was simple? That was confusing and by the way you spelled confusing wrong it is NOT cornfusing :-\.
You are almost an astute student.
" And YOUR think your response was simple?"
Don't live in a glass House.
avid
They skipped a bunch of letters for no good reason. "U" is one of them. I think they should have used it for the Brighton (Slant "Q") express rather than having two "Q"s.
wayne
That's like asking us why the letters I, O, P, are skipped over too. So what's the big deal?
I looks like 1
O is a circle
P goes together with #2 sometimes
All true,
O in a collored bullet would look more like decoration on the front of the train, than a route desighation.
It would also look like a bullseye.
Put a slash through it, then it won't look like a bullseye.
wayne
LOL, but then it's a zero, not an O.
Or maybe a Norwegian "Ore".
wayne
16 repsonses, and nobody actually knows why.
There are 26 letters in the alphabet. NYCT does not have 26 lines in the B divison. Letters like I,K,O,P,T,X & Y aren't used either. They aren't needed!
They try to stay away from letters that sound like words, like P, U and Y.
Even stranger is that they don't like to use letters that were used previously for other lines. For that reason, H, K, T and 8, perfectlly good letters & numbers, are sitting around, reading magazines, playing cards, smoking (outside of course) and waiting for assignments that may never come.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Very true. At least the let the K out for a drink when they let it run on 8th Avenue in the 80's, although I don't think the Broadway el was actually ever K, it was KK, IIRC.
I wonder if the blue K just happened to be on the rollsigns as a Broadway Brooklyn El, Chrystie Street, 8th Ave train provision, or if they made the K specifically blue for the AA replacement.
The KK became the K in 1972.
I think that they chose it because it was already blue. It allowed them to have a train using both the old rollsigns and the new.
How about PU for a train prior to going through the car wash?
:0)
What about Double-you? That's sounds like two words!
You know what, I really don't know. But then the letters I, O, P, X and Y is skipped over as well. H, K and T are former routes that aren't used nowadays.
Was there through Manhattan-Brooklyn service over the Manhattan Bridge? What route did the trolleys run?
What do you define as "through" service? All of the bridges
had trolley routes that were predominantly in one borough with
just a few blocks in the other.
I heard that the east (north) side of the bridge carried Manhattan trolleys with underground conduits to Brooklyn, where the trains would switch to overhead operation and continue into Brooklyn.
I thought there were no trolleys on the Manhattan Bridge.
The upper levels now used for automobiles were used for trolleys. The west (south) side had the Manhattan Bridge 3-cent line, a shuttle independent of the BMT.
The Brooklyn Bridge had shared lanes with traffic in what were then the auto left lanes (now the middle lanes). Train tracks were in what are now the left lanes, and the car lanes were open air. The "box" that currently encases the roadways encased only the tracks. The beams that are above the roadway now were three times as short but were placed twice as open. Look at the trusswork on the sides, the pattern repeats itself twice as often as the beams are placed.
On the Williamsburg Bridge, the now Brooklyn-bound inner roadway had the BMT trolleys to Essex Street, while the now Manhattan-bound inner roadway had Manhattan-based trolleys ending at Washington Plaza.
On the Queensborough Bridge, trolleys started at an underground terminal (the entrance kiosk is still there!) and traveled on the outer lanes, that are outside the trusses. I believe there were also additional tracks inside of that, sharing the roadway with cars. There were also stops at the Manhattan and Queens towers, and at Welfare (Blackwell's before 1921, Roosevelt after 1972) Island, where both pedestrians and cars could go onto the roof of a building next to the bridge, and elevators would take them down to the surface. This lasted until 1957 and was the last trolley in the city. It was run by New York and Queens County. Queens Surface is a successor to this company.
Aha! I found the material I was looking for. ERA publication
"Electric Railroads #32", Dec 1962. There were, as Conrad
said, two operations over the bridge.
The 3 cent line was supposed to run from a terminal on Flatbush
near the LIRR station, using overhead wire, then over the
bridge using conduit and crosstown to Desbrosses St. ferry slip.
The Brooklyn & North River had a route that was essentially the
same. The company was a joint venture between NY Railways,
Third Avenue and the BRT, basically designed to steal revenue
from the independent 3 cent line.
Between 1912 and 1915, streetcars operated on the south lower
trackway until the connection was made to the subway line.
Eventually, the 3 cent line used the south upper trackway and
the B&NR the north upper trackway. The 3 cent line gave up
on the idea of reaching the west side and operated exclusively
with overhead wire. They had a 3-loop terminal against the
curving stone plaza of the Manhattan Bridge near Bowery.
The B&NR only lasted until 1919 despite having a longer run
from Debrosses ferry to the terminal it shared with the 3 cent
line at Fulton St. The B&NR used conduit across the bridge
with a plow pit on the Brooklyn side.
The 3 cent line quit in 1929, not because of lack of ridership,
but because the City wanted the right of way for an additional
roadway.
Here is a pix of the "Three Cents Line". Trolley is going over the Manny B on the upper deck. The pix is a cover of a video.
Cut and paste.
http://www.ectma.org/Catalog_Images/trolleycarthatbuiltcityv.jpg
The 3 cent line ran until 1930 when it was abandoned. It used the upper level now occupied by the two roadways on either side of the lower deck.
There were two trolley installations, the Brooklyn and North River and the Manhattan Bridge 3-Cent Line (two rides for a nickel). Im without the benefit of research materials at the moment, but I believe they each used one present upper roadway (above the sets of rapid transit tracks). The existing 3-lane lower roadway was a 4-lane cartway when the bridge opened.
I think the 3c line carhouse still stands, about the NE corner of Myrtle and Flatbush (well, close by anyway), it used to be a Ford dealer in the 80s.
I think the BNR used conduit and the 3c line used trolley wire, perhaps some of the more knowledgable trolley types could embellish or correct this.
The ERA did a nice "Headlights" issue on the 3c line, maybe 1960 or so.
Did the subway ever decouple trains mid-route and have each part continue to separate destinations?
Yes. In the 1920s trains would split at Eastern Parkway and go to Utica/New Lots or Flatbush Avenue.
David
That practice continued well into the 1940s, my Mom used to commute from E.28th Street Flatbush to the Met Life building (23rd St-Lex) and she remembers the conductor going through the car advising "car forward", and they would break the train in the middle, one for Flatbush, the other for New Lots. She related this story to me on numerous occasions.
wayne
How much time did it take to split a train?
If you define "the subway" as somewhere other than New York, here's a good example:
The MUNI Metro in San Francisco uses two- and three-car trains of trolley cars. When exiting the Twin Peaks tunnel at West Portal, trains may be mixed K,L, and/or M. If so, the split. On the return, sometimes single cars will couple-up for the sprint into the subway portion of the line into downtown. This used to be very frequent, but I think it's less so now that the Breda cars and ATO are in use. Perhaps Jeremy or others can verify this.
A closer to home example, it's still done by NJ Transit on the Morris & Essex line where part of the train from Hoboken will split off at Summit for Gladstone branch, and the rest to Dover on the Morristown line.
Do they do that? I thought that with Midtown Direct it was a Hoboken to Gladstone train and a NY to Dover train that met at Summit, but didn't actually split into parts.
The only nearby train splitting that I know of (and I'm not sure if it still happens) was at New Haven with Amtrak splitting into Springfield and Boston sections.
If that's gone, then it's the Lake Shore Limited splitting at Albany into NY and Boston sections.
CG
I walk thru Hoboken Terminal all the time and occasionally you hear, "first three cars for Gladstone" on a longer train so I guessed they still split them.
Of course, out in the midwest Amtrak used to split the California Zephyr at Salt Lake City into three trains: the Zephyr to Oakland, the Pioneer to Seattle, and the Desert Wind to Las Vegas and Los Angeles. The Desert Wind appears and disappears with funding fluctuations; the other two routes are more stable.
I couldn't find the Desert Wind or the Pioneer on Amtrak.com. I know the Pioneer has been gone for a few years, if it's stable, it's stable as abandoned. I don't know about the Desert Wind, I thought it was still around, but apparantly it's gone belly up too.
The Desert Wind has been cancelled and reconstituted a number of times. It's currently not funded.
"I know the Pioneer has been gone for a few years, if it's stable, it's stable as abandoned."
Bummer. I have to go back and look at the national map again. Does that mean if you're going to Seattle, you have to take the Zephyr to Oakland and catch the connecting train north, or take the Empire Builder from Chicago to begin with?
(I have been on the Southwest Chief twice, the Zephyr/Desert Wind once, and the Empire Builder most recently (1997).)
I think that the "first three cars for Gladstone" is a reference to shorter platforms on the Gladstone branch west of Summit. Many of the Hoboken to Gladstone trains make local stops from Hob-Summit where the platforms can handle the full length of the train.
CG
There is (or at least was in early 2000(got employee timetable somewhere in my attic)a trainset brought from yard into Hoboken that gets split into Gladstone and Summit trains on the platform. They depart at different times, but average commuter Joe is not paying attention that trainset is split and may board the Summit train so they announce it. BTW Gladstone branch platforms can and do handle full length trains. Of course, off peak I have not seen anything longer that 4 cars. Peak some of them are up to 8 cars.
the gladstone and dover train ran as one train to summit. they carried both a 600's and 400's numbers. the 600's train where the dover trains. the 400's where the gladstone trains.
also the rock island had engines that where designed to split (they emd's e's)
Train splitting is very common in Britain. The ones which spring immediately to mind are Birmingham New Street to Chester and Aberystwyth, splitting at Shrewsbury; London Bridge to Bognor Regis and Portsmouth Harbour, splitting at Barnham; and London St Pancras to Burton-on-Trent and Matlock, splitting at Derby. The last of those is particularly fun as the Burton portion of the train leaves Derby "backwards"!
The practice ended with the demise of the Boeings (Type 6 in T parlance). The couplers were crankier as they aged., AND Muni finally persuaded TWU that Frank Sprague's idea of MU control meant ONE operator per train. So current ops are made up as necessary at the barn and not broken or respliced on route.
I had wanted to see this happening since i moved out here, but never had a chance before the demise of the Boeings. I did camp out at West Portal for a while one day during rush hour to see if it did happened. David has a good point...most trains only have one operator anyway so the second car would be left stranded :) I want to say i did actually see it happen once that day (operator in the second car of course).
I was on a train in France once back in high school that split. The funny thing is we didn't know it was going to happen. I had walked up to the front with a friend of mine while the train was in the station; it was happening while we were coming back to our car and had to "change trains" quickly.
The even funnier part was that the front half of the train was going where we needed to go. The half we were on was not....That was an adventure getting back since we didn't realize it until it was WAY too late.
Thanks David & Jeremy for the update... POP goes the train split :-)
Speaking of Boeings in Boston, I was in the second car of a two-car Boeing train a few years ago when it split all by itself between Park Street and Government Center. The rear car went into emergency (wheel brakes AND track brakes deployed -- talk about a stonewall stop!). The first car kept on going as if they operator didn't know his trailer car was "missing." When our car's operator determined that no one was hurt from the emergency stop, she called control to have the leader hold at Government Center so she could re-couple. She did, and off we went as a re-mated, short-divorced train.
Hmmm, seems to me that both cars should have gone BIE due to an unscheduled un-coupling (i. e. on the fly), maybe that was yet another defect in the Boeing Bathtubs :)
It used to happen on the LIRR a lot. The first few cars would go on to their destination, and the rest would stay in the station :-)
I think they used to do that on the LIRR at Manorville Station. Part of the train would go to Greenport, and the other half would go down the now abandoned Manoville Branch to Eastport and then eastward from there. If I'm not mistaken, I think they even did this while the train was in motion. I don't know the whole story.
Doesn't a train go BIE when it is split?
Not of you close the angle cocks.
If you closed the angle clocks, the train would not pass the brake tests. A thrown cutting key in the forward half would prevent the front from dumping and allow it to arrive at the terminal. On the subject of train splitting enroute, does 8884 count?
Pigs just asked about BIE, not passing the brake tests.
Saturday night, our 7 train was having door holding problems in the last car at 74th Street. I suggested that we continue as a 9-car train to Flushing.
More seriously, I've also suggested that this be used to solve the A train's branching problem. It's probably not technically feasible, though, and what happens if one of the northbound half-trains is delayed?
I think Sea Beach trains to the 65th Street (Brooklyn) ferry used to couple/de-couple from West End trains at Bath Junction in the early days of the 20th Century until 1915 or so ....
--Mark
And don't forget that the Bay Ridge (65th Street) car was cut from Culvers at 36th Street at certain hours on the 5th Avenue L.
I tried to send this comment earlier, but it seems to have disappeared.
Mark Feinman mentions combining Sea Beach and West End trains en route to Coney Island; I think the way it worked was that 'L' trains from Park Row, via 5th Avenue, split at 62nd Street to go their separate ways to Coney Island.
I'd have to check the Sea Beach book to see if there was also 65th Street service combining with West End trains from downtown to go to Coney Island--I sort of doubt that, because, if I recall, West End trains went to West End Terminal and Sea Beach trains ran to the Sea Beach Palace or westerly in Coney Island.
I'm not sure if 5th Avenue-Bay Ridge trains coupled with Culvers at 36th Street to go downtown, but that might have been done, too.
I rode the San Francisco Muni trains when they were combining or separating at the Portal. Except for a slight bump, the joining was easy.
There's no real reason that New York couldn't have such service again--overnight expresses on Broadway, splitting at 36th Street for Sea Beach and West End service, could give more people faster, one-seat rides home, without all the sliding back and forth that all the local stops cause.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
(With apologies if this echoes my earlier draft--I tried.)
Happy New Year to All--What personal transit plans do Subtalkers have for 2003?
I heard of it once, but I don't know if it's true. In this case a N/B A train of R-44 units were making an express run along Fulton when the first two cars separated from the rest of the train and continued on to Utica Ave station. When the doors did not opn the T/O looked out his windows to discover that 3 quarters of his train was missing. I heard that it was a big mystery because if a train uncoupled while moving both sections are suposed to automatically go BIE.
A funny story I once read in the NY Daily News was once during rush hour a train was on the S/B local track at 59th-Columbus Circle and the C/R had to leave his position to cut-out a malfunctioning door panel. The problem was... once the C/R got the problem door panel closed he was on the platform and .... You guessed it... The T/O got indication and started accelerating and there were funny stories of this C/R running along the platform after the train.
Wayne
Wayne
The R-44 story is true. It happened many times with R-44 equipment. I believe it's even happened a few times post-GOH, though it doesn't seem to happen as often since GOH.
David
Yes, they did that back in the 1920's and 1930's although I don't know what lines this was done on.
Then wouldn't the SIRT need a letter? I suggest the letter T and the color black.
They are probably considering using the letter T. Nothing has been announced yet.
Why???
Now it's the SIR, a separate entity. If it becomes part of the Subway by name, then it will have to be consistent with it. It would only entail a map reprint. There is no need to change the train rollsigns (which are more informative now) or even to put (T) stickers at the stations.
It's a good idea.
It's a pity we won't see any action connecting the SIR with the rest of the subway. I think ideas were mentioned building track on the Verazano Narrows in the likes of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. It was turned down because of weight issues. A tunnel would be fun, but nah, I'm too hopeful... :(
The SIRT was supposed to have been connected with the BMT 4th Avenue Line from 59/4 and the IND Culver subway from 7th Ave via Ft Hamilton Pkwy.
Fort Hamilton Parkway was called Franklin Avenue before 1892, later it was Fort Hamilton Avenue.
Whatever the road ws called, The IND had plans for building their line thru there to Statem Island in the late 1930's.
The SIR is already part of the NYCT which includes the subways. There's no need to assign it a letter or letters. However, S.I. Borough Pres. Molinaro has asked the MTA to put the SIR under the new Commuter Rail division.
Which do you think is the most sensual model of train?
The Arnines and The Red Birds.
BMT Bluebird - mohair upholstered seats, mirrors....
The SOAC.
To me the 1964 Worlds Fair R-36's nice shade of blue and white also
HOW DID PENN STATION GET IT'S NAME???
A buddy of mine thinks it got it's name
"because it services the State of Pennsylvania
and all the trains that leave Penn Sta. go to
Pennsylvania..." (IIRC... LIRR and PATH and
NJT don't quite serve the state of PA..)
Whereas another barks "Penn Station is really
Pennsylvania Avenue Station which is what the
intersection or street it is on USED TO BE called"
(i/e Penn Plaza, Pennsylvania Hotel, etc.)
So.... what's the right answer, SubTALK?
It was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad, and hence is the Pennsylvania Station.
The Pennsylvania Railroad named itself after its home state, from which it expanded elsewhere.
If it was built by the Delaware Railroad, it would have been called Del Station.
Yes, and there did exist other railroad stations in and around New York so this one was the station for the Pennsylvania Railroad. There are Penn Stations in Newark, Baltimore, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh although the latter two no longer have any competition.
What was the competition in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh?
The CNJ at one time did have passenger service to Harrisburg.
In Harrisburg the Reading station was right next door to the Pennsylvania Station and in Pittsburgh the B&O station was accross town and the P&LE station was accross the river.
So how come 30th St Station in Philadelphia was not named "Pennsylvania Station?"
To answer this question and a previous post:
In Pittsburgh the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, and the Baltimore & Ohio, provided competition to the PRR.
In Philadelphia the PRR had four stations at one time - 30th St, North Philadelphia, Suburban, and Broad Street. All but Broad Street still exist today.
As Andy said, if you had put a Penn Station in Philly people would have ended up staying "which one" as there existed 4 stations operated by the PRR. After broad st station was demolished there did construct a "Penn Center".
If it was built by the Delaware Railroad, it would have been called Del Station.
If it was named after a pregnant comedian would it be called "Jest Station"?
Idle minds want to know.
Or, had there been a Georgia Railroad coming into NY, I guess we would have had to call it GAStation.
HOW DID PENN STATION GET IT'S NAME???
PENN STATION in New York, please?
Very simple answer. Penn Station was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1910, thus "Pennsylvania" Station. It was named for the railroad that used it. Just like Grand Central was built by the New York Central Railroad.
If you wanted the New York Central, you went to Grand Central, if you wanted the Pennsylvania Railroad, you went to Pennsylvania Station.
Thanks for the answer (& for staying On-Topic), Chris! :)
We already answered your question.
I think Mark Feinman in the thread on arcing mentioned riding the #1 during a thunderstorm. It got me wondering if a subway car or train has ever been struck by lightning? Are the car bodies grounded? Would it be a problem if a car was hit by lightning?
I've seen cars struck at Seashore. ZORCH!
When cars are on the track (whether at a museum, on an el, or in a tunnel :-), they're grounded.
If you're in the car and not near an open window or door, you're protected -- as the subway car is a "Faraday Cage" (old wooden cars don't count!).
This has been thoroughly discussed on SubTalk a number of times in the past, so heypaul if you turn your R9 controller to the "wayback" position, you can find it in the archives.
I think heypaul's cab has been struck by lightning on numerous occassions....
One point twenty one jiggawatts to be precise. :)
"I think heypaul's cab has been struck by lightning on numerous occassions.... "
Has heypaul ever been struck by lightning?
The verdict is still out on that question :)
If he were, that would go along way to explaining things.
i wonder what would happen if the subway car hit 88 mph and were hit by lightning? would that damage the flux capaciter?
Where is the Mr. Fusion kept? Does the t/o keep a box of bananna peals under the seat?
Don't forget the half-empty beer can.:)
Is it half empty or half full?
avid
No it would end up running on the Central Pacific into Hill Valley ;)
ROTFLMAO
I hope I'm not in a subway car or any rail car for that matter when it is struck by lightning. Though I probably wouldn't be hurt, my nerves would be jangled.
#3 West End Jeff
You most likely wouldn't know it hit you.
I've got an idea there. Perhaps some people are so stupid that they wouldn't know if anything hit them.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, if it hit the car, the thunder would still be appreciably louder than the car itself. Having been in building that have been struck and in houses when trees nearby were struck (so close that they caused the florescent lights and the TV to go black for about 15 seconds (incandescents weren't affected)), I can say that thunder from near-by strikes is NOT something anyone would miss (not even a deaf person - it shakes things).
Actually, if you're in VERY close to the strike (a few feet) it sounds more like a popping balloon or at loudest, a pistol gunshot. The "boom" is the result of air getting compressed by the heat and it takes a few feet of propagation of the "sound" before enough air gets compressed for you to start hearing it.
I've been in VERY close to lightning strikes, and if you're in close ENOUGH, you actually don't hear anything at all other than a "pop" noise. That was the case when I was on that train years ago. BRIGHT flash, next to no sound.
At my workplace, where we make a MRIL Oil finding tool, we use "Faraday Cages" for the calibration of the tool. The interior of the cage has a fiberglass shell that is filled with special water.
We take great pains to completely seal our unit, even covering the joints with copper tape.
I enjoyed reading your reference as to what makes a "Faraday Cage"
Thank you!
Chuck Greene
The Boston Museum of Science has a great Faraday cage demonstration. The docent goes inside the cage, and high voltage (but I'm sure low amperage) current is applied, with all the flash and bang they can muster.
The MoS is on the Green Line trolley :-) to keep this on-topic.
Wow! Thanks, Todd . I'd love to see that. Maybe some day I'll take a trip to Boston on the Acela.
Chuck Greene
Traditional streetcars usually emloy two devices to guard against lightning - a choke coil, and a lightning arrestor.
The lightning arrestor provides a shorter path to ground than the car circuitry. There are different types, the simplest and oldest being a spark-gap. They are about the size and shape of a birthday cake, and are usually mounted on the roof boards near the trolley base. The choke coil provides a tiny bit of resistance between the line switch (or ribbon fuse) and the car circuitry, so the lightning finds its path to ground through the arrestor and not the car circuitry itself.
Maybe a Branford-type could provide expert testimony, but my guess is that wooden elevated cars with trolley poles probably had lightning protection. But with a steel-bodied subway car, the lightning would just find a path to ground through the car body itself, likely without damaging and wiring or components.
Conrad,
Lightning arrestors were rarely used on third rail systems. I
believe the reasoning is that lightning would more likely strike
the grounded running rails then the contact rail, and if it did
strike, it would likely ground itself out. None of the steel subway
cars have them. OTOH steel-bodied interurban cars do.
The choke coil provides not so much resistance as inductance. The
lightning spike is fast-rising, i.e. high-frequency, and the
inductance of the choke coil blocks it. As one text put it, the
rate of electron flow (current) can't change quickly through
a choke, so the electrons pile up on the high side and are discharged
to ground through the arrestor (which is basically a capacitor, i.e.
blocks DC and allows AC to pass)
THANKS for the more detailed description! I now have a higher level of understanding......
I had a consist of Arnines on the Brighton "slapped" on the el by West 8th ... somewhere around cars 7-8 ... dunno if it hit the el or the cars, but the flash was unmistakable. I was *OUTSIDE* between cars, stepping down and didn't feel a thing. I saw the flash, the sound of a firecracker/gunshot and KNEW we'd been hit. Nothing else happens, no zitz, no flashing or dimming lights, nothing.
As LONG as the rails are properly grounded, then the major current flow will be elsewhere, not through you or the seats. What I'm going to find INTERESTING as an electronics type engineer is what will happen to these "new tech" cars with semiconductors and computers should one get slapped. The customers will be warm and cozy and safe, but I'll bet the stray current flows TRASH the onboard computers and semiconductors. There's something to be said for contactors, metal bar "resistances" and all the things that made the old-timers as impervious to ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) events as vacuum tubes.
After all, wasn't until we moved to transistors and integrated circuits that we needed "surge protectors" ... and I emphasize ... HEH.
"What I'm going to find INTERESTING as an electronics type engineer is what will happen to these "new tech" cars with semiconductors and computers should one get slapped."
Automobiles have lots of chips in them nowadays. Any auto mechanic would know whether it's a problem for cars. If not for cars, then probably not for subways either.
Heh. Check with the local police department. Thanks to Solid-state electronics in cars (instead of somewhat trustier coils and points) all the cops need to do is launch a rocket-sled under your car, make a biggie spark, and your car is DEAD ... and only parts replacement will make it run again. Electromagnetic pulse (EMP) could take out the old coil, points and capacitor as it was ... and if the coil didn't short out, once the EMP had subsided, you could drive again. Not so for "new tech" there either.
There's a REASON why the Chinese and the Russkies STILL depend on vacumm tubes. WE trust Bill Gates. Guess whose side I'll wager on being the last thrown off the island by the tribal council? :)
I'd be willing to bet that the LCCs out in Elias's country are Vacuum tubes, coils and so on.
Isn't there a way to make a solid state electronics EMP-proof? I know that most nuclear delivery systems have some kind of EMP proofing. If only for the reason that it sucks to lob your bombs at the enemy target, only to lose all radar and so on deep in enemy territory when the detonate. How would this be done? I would imagine that the MTA would regard it as an expensive proposition to protect expensive, but ultimately replacible, equipment.
It's called "rad-hardened" which is essentially "SOS" or "Silicon on Sapphire" technology with schottky diodes (that short) on each lead exposed outside the chip. Rad-hardened though isn't radiation PROOF, it just increases the chances of survival of the electronics by a degree. It's VERY expensive and not likely to be found in transit electronics. When NASA did it (owing to huge amounts of gamma radiation in space) it was referred to as "gold-plating" and terribly expensive.
But no, vacuum tubes WILL survive, semiconductors MIGHT. My greatest fear is an EMP bomb (they can be built for about $500) taking out all of our computers in a major metropolitan area. Here's an article on it published a few years ago:
http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/9/e-bomb/print.phtml
Arnines would have no problem nor would redbirds and the TA's antiques. Stuff from the 44's on though would suffer varying (and incrementing with car type) degrees of brain death ...
I was aboard a "QJ" train of mixed R-7a and R-9 on August 1, 1971 when the eighth car (R-7a #1540) was hit as we prepared to leave Cleveland Street station in blinding downpour and lightning storm.
Apparently the bolt struck the pantograph gates below the cab window, causing heat burns which blew out the cab glass. They took the train out of service (leaving us to wait beneath the shed in the storm), and we were picked up by the following train, an R42.
wayne
Wayne... No one was hurt or stunned in that car?
Apparently not, I was in maybe the sixth car, heard the report just as we had started to move, I guess either the motorman or conductor heard it too and we went BIE real quick with maybe one car out of the station. It sounded like a cannon, REAL loud. We stayed put for a couple minutes until they got the doors open and we got out onto the platform. It didn't appear that anybody was hurt. Then again it was a Sunday early evening and the train wasn't all that crowded.
wayne
You could write a book about your, shall we say, unique subway experiences over the years.:)
Come to think of it, just about anyone who has used the subway on a daily basis could do so.
I just updated my site, I added a photo essay following the travels of a Culver Shuttle sign:
http://subway.com.ru/culver-yukon/
Enjoy-
-Larry
subway.com.ru
Cool beans! Did you GET the transfer? :)
Yup, got it on the first day :-)
Heh. You're SUCH a railslut. I'm PROUDYA son! :)
I like your license plate number. Do you still have it?
I have that licence plate, but not on my car, it's hanging on my basment wall...
But I still have that car, a 1982 Mercury Lynx.
Did you keep the number with the upgrade to Empire plates?
No, I got rid of thoses number plates many years ago, before the Empire plates came out
Larry, those are some GREAT shots. I feel another Randy Kennedy piece on a SubTalker could be in the works....:)
I was wondering if anybody could provide a timeline for electrification on railroads like the PRR, LIRR, NYC?
I like electrified RRs, I think all passenger RRs should eventually be electrified.
NYC = 1906 to High Bridge and then Croton sometime shortly after
NHRR = 1906 to Stamford then 1918 to New Haven and Danbury
PRR 1911 to Penn Station 3rd Rail, 1915 to Paoli, 1920's to Wilmington, 1933 to Penn catenary and 1938 to Harrisburg and the freight lines.
LIRR starting around 1911 to Penn and by 1940 all suburban lines to Far Rock, Babylon, Huntington, Port Wash, the Hempsteads, etc.
WJ&S 1904-6 to Milliville and Atlantic City.
Way off on the LIRR, Mike.
1904 - 06: FBA line, Mineola, Ex central branch to Mitchell Field.
1910 - Jay to Penn.
1913 - Port Washington
Somewhere in here was the Rockaways, Long Beach, etc.
1923 - Babylon
1960's - Mineola to HIcksville
1970's - Hicksville to Huntington (was going to be Northport)
1980's - Hicksville to Ronkonkoma
Meh, it was an abbriviated list. Pigs is just posting so he won't drop to #3 on the all time posts lists.
Well, at least I manage to make all my posts QUALITY ON-TOPIC MATERIAL.
I found pretty much the exact same post by me, posted back in 2001, which has the NFO I need: http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=223445
>>I like electrified RRs, I think all passenger RRs should eventually be electrified.
What? You mean you don't find the thought of coal-burning steam engines running in the subways rather inviting? It gave the early London Underground such ambiance!
: )
Mark
When the MTA planned this back in the 1960s and 1970s, how did they intend to add two extra tracks to the LIRR? Airtrain-style? Where would the connection back to Queens Boulevard have been? The lead from Jamaica yard to past Union Turnpike seems like a candidate, but then the bypass train (let's call it the Y) would be hob-nobbing with both the E and F for a short, seemingly unnecessary distance.
They planned to use the trackspace of the Rockaway branch, which provided two extra tracks (for a total of six) from Winfield to White Pot. Beyond that, I'm not familiar.
In terms of the parallel with the QB line, where are Winfield and White Pot?
White Pot Jct is about 65 Avenue.
Winfield's further west, maybe around Grand Avenue.
wayne
White Pot Jct is about 65 Avenue.
Winfield's further west, maybe around Grand Avenue.
So with approaches you could get a bypass from approximate QP to Forest Hills.
Actually, the 1968 plan had the bypass rejoining the Queens Blvd IND west of 71-Continental Avenue. The Bellmouth between 63 Dr and 67 Ave was for IND-II to Rockaway using the LIRR ROW.
wayne
The LIRR Rockaway ROW branched off from the Main Line just (geographically} south of 63 Dr. Until about 1962 there was a station at 63 Dr, called Rego Park, and after Rock-bound trains stopped there they used the "WHITE POT UNDERJUMP" to proceed east (in timetable direction). It is this structure which was proposed to bring the Rockaway ROW into the Queens Blvd. Line via Wayne/R40's bellmouth. The QB Bypass was to utilize the former Rockaway Branch ROW, the two outermost tracks of LIRR's Main Line. Winfield Jct. ("WIN") controlled switching just east of woodside for Rock Branch Trains. How QB Bypass trains were to enter either the 53, 60, or 63 Street tubes is beyond me. Possibly via Elmhust Ave./Grand Street under the LIE?
WOMAN ARRESTED FOR PLACING BOXES AT UNION SQUARE. Remind you of something?
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh, so sad.
At least she was caught before any "Panic" set in and they wound up closing the station again.
A trend? I certainly hope not.
Face it, Ani couldn't think of anything better...
That OR she thought adding the word "ART" to the crapbox
would make all the difference and spare her arrest and
gain public praise from her professor...
>>> At least she was caught before any "Panic" set in and they wound up closing the station again. <<<
Maybe something was learned from the first incident after all. That one was rather shocking. 37 boxes left all around the station before anyone thought there was anything suspicious. This time she is caught with the first box. Subway workers and riders should feel a bit safer.
Tom
I think it's just a copy cat wannbe-just-like-him.
I wonder if Ani is a pal of B47 Bussy. Just a thought.
Yes. People will do anything for that "A" in art class.
--Mark
"Is This Becoming A Trend?"
I wouldn't be surprised, stupidity is contagious.
Maybe it was a scene for:
JACKASS-THE SEQUEL!
Hey, the fact that there was a Jackass movie to begin with already shows plenty of stupidity. I don't think that there's any need for it to be contagious.
Maybe she was being filmed as she was trying to put up the boxes. If there is a possibility to make money, Maybe MTV was shooting a sequel.
Sounds like some nut trying to be cute.
STORY HERE, but consider the source.
Peace,
ANDEE
Quote from article:
"To make the connection work, the new section would have to run straight across the existing tunnel to the Transit Museum - which, in turn, would have to be relocated. "
Uhmm, No.
Just after they spent all this money to refurbish the Transit Museum?
My point, exactly. The Transit Museum is a pet favorite of the Paturkey administration. Hell, E. Virgil Conways wife is on the board.
Ain't gonna happen, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bad plan. If LIRR riders don't want to use the subway, they should just run the LIRR down to the waterfront and let them take a ferry over. A ferry isn't expensive over such a short distance.
"Bad plan. If LIRR riders don't want to use the subway, they should just run the LIRR down to the waterfront and let them take a ferry over. A ferry isn't expensive over such a short distance"
If LIRR riders don't want to use the subway they should lace up their shoes and walk. That anyone continues to see the Brookfield plan as anything other than a shameless Federal money grab really burns me up.
CG
A ferry isn't expensive over such a short distance.
Ferries are quite expensive. That's why the state UDC built the Rossevelt Island Tramway - it was cheaper than a ferry.
That's it -- a CABLE CAR to JFK! We could string it from the City Hall terrorist barriers, across the unused side of the Manhattan Bridge, and between smashed AirTrain cars, and stick a few cable towers in the Howard Beach platforms. Cheap, unobtrusive, one-seat ride, and oh so romantic.
Would it be cheaper to use a giant crane which would swing the passenger car in an arc between stations?
:0)
Let's see --
No Guggenheim
No SAS
No agreement on WTC
Convention ctr -- ???
Office construction -- snort
Yup, Ron, I think we can find you a crane.
LOL!
I think the multi chair ski lift would be a nicer tourist/terrorist friendly service. Open air, view of the skyline.
avid
What's this about "proper speed?" Are we talking about a grade which is too steep to allow traction?
MBTA's Red Line turns very sharply entering Harvard Square station. It creeps into the station at probably 5 mph, wheels groaning and moaning. And this was built in the 1980's. SEPTA's Broad Street subway trains make a very sharp turn onto City Hall tracks from the Race-Vine station.
So what?
Probably neither of those curves are as sharp as the one just north of Cortlandt Street.
Doesn't the MBTA Blue Line have a very sharp curve between Govt Center and Bowdoin Square?
wayne
I was wondering why the crossover from 3rd rail to catenary takes place around Pelham station. It looks as though at one time the catenary wires extended closer to the junction with the Harlem line. Was there a plan (perhaps by Penn Central)to extend the 3rd rail even further along the line?
The third rail extension was probably done so as to isolate the switchover from the Harlem Line. If a train fails in the switchover at Pelham, it only screws up the NH line. At Woodlawn, it screws up Harlem too.
The switchover used to be (till the 1990s some time) between Mt. Vernon East and the intersection with the Harlem Line. There was never a danger of a train messing up the Harlem Line if it stalled.
Heading east, the changeover used to be on an uphill. That may be why they moved it. Lower speeds, more time with no power, lesser options in case of a problem, etc.
I sit corrected.
Catenary is far more expensive to maintain than 3rd Rail. While the catenary was once extended down onto the Harlem Line (I think around 1918 or so) it was cut back to save on costs.
Mikey, what's the relative cost of maintaining catanary as compared to maintaining 3rd rail?
Sore back (bending over) compared to a sore neck (looking up)?
And second question: What are the relative routine operating costs?
Third rail, if I recall correctly, requires more closely spaced substations to supply the power, thereby increasing capital costs. Proportionally more power must be supplied to move the train.
It does appear to me that third rail, once installed, is less prone to physical damage from weather.
If I am wrong about this, feel free to so state.
Since those Sirens got me off on an electrical bent...
Third rail is 600-1000 VDC, at high amperage, and, since resistance is voltage divided by current, then the lower the amperage, the better, at least from a transmission standpoint. However, power is voltage and current multiplied, so 750VDC x 10 amps to keep transmission good means a paltry 7500 watts or just more than 1 hp or so comes out the far end. In order to get lots of power, like the 4,400kW needed for an ALP44 (Am I wrong? does the 44 in ALP44 mean 4.4 megawatts?), then you need to either have a substation every mile along the line, or you need to go with some serious voltage, hence the 11.5 and 25kv sections of the NEC. That brings with it a whole nother set of problems, since I believe as the voltage increases, the more the 3rd rail will want to just discharge into the ground, whether or not those electrons are moved to power some commuter butt. With 11.5 and 25kVAC, really all you can do is place the power overhead, like our catenary.
3rd rail may be easier to care for, it's right on the ground, it looks and acts like a rail. But catenary is more efficent from a heat loss and materials standpoint (at least before the supporting towers are taken into account), being just one strand of rather thick copper as opposed to the 3rd rail's massive well, rail necessary to keep the electrons moving. With this, it makes far more sense to run catenary out between the cities, where you do not have the infrastructure to support the 3rd rail substations that are so necessary, all you need is one substation every 30-50 miles from what I've seen on the NEC. For this reason the LIRR has always perplexed me, it runs a good distance out onto Long Island, getting some 150 miles from NYP, yet it has insisted on running 3rd rail for all of it's electrification. This entails a lot of other work for electifying a branch, tranmission wires need to be placed to the many substations that are needed. This must add immensly to the cost of electifying branches, you almost have to wonder if the LIRR had gone catenary years ago, would they be using non-3rd rail M2s and ALP46s out to Greenpoint by now? One of the definite advantages would be the fact that only 1 ALP46 would be needed for X number of coaches, not always needing two locomotives for one train, since there are few catenary gaps in a terminal area.
I've often wondered why Trolleys and LRTs are Catenary, while subways are 3rd rail there must be some kind of story there, why the early elevateds didn't simply run trolley cars right up onto the el lines instead of going with a wholey different power collection system. I suppose I just answered my own question, different companies, different power collection systems, keeps the 'baddies' off your tracks.
One more question, what about High Speed 3rd rail? I know that the LIRR gets up to 80 or 90 mph, has anybody gone faster on 3rd rail, it seems like all the High Speed trainsets are catenary powered, is the 3rd rail just incapable of dealing with the speed or something?
There is one detriment with catenary -- the wires often "go down", either from getting tangled with the top of the train during windstorms, or for other weather-related reasons.
"Third rail is 600-1000 VDC, at high amperage, and, since resistance is voltage divided by current, then the lower the amperage, the better, at least from a transmission standpoint. However, power is voltage and current multiplied, so 750VDC x 10 amps to keep transmission good means a paltry 7500 watts or just more than 1 hp or so comes out the far end."
Indeed. Other posters have said on Subtalk that you need 5,000 amps to intially charge up a subway train and get it ready to start rolling down the track.
"In order to get lots of power, like the 4,400kW needed for an ALP44 (Am I wrong? does the 44 in ALP44 mean 4.4 megawatts?), then you need to either have a substation every mile along the line, or you need to go with some serious voltage, hence the 11.5 and 25kv sections of the NEC."
Yes, true. But look at the duel-power locos in LIRR service. Aren't they at least 3000-4000 horses (not insignificant). They run on third rail.
"That brings with it a whole nother set of problems, since I believe as the voltage increases, the more the 3rd rail will want to just discharge into the ground, whether or not those electrons are moved to power some commuter butt."
Where's Philip Nasadowski?
For this reason the LIRR has always perplexed me, it runs a good distance out onto Long Island, getting some 150 miles from NYP, yet it has insisted on running 3rd rail for all of it's electrification. This entails a lot of other work for electifying a branch, tranmission wires need to be placed to the many substations that are needed. This must add immensly to the cost of electifying branches, you almost have to wonder if the LIRR had gone catenary years ago, would they be using non-3rd rail M2s and ALP46s out to Greenpoint by now? One of the definite advantages would be the fact that only 1 ALP46 would be needed for X number of coaches, not always needing two locomotives for one train, since there are few catenary gaps in a terminal area."
Good point. You could also, theoretically, have "one seat" rides between Long Island and New Jersey, and the same train that takes you into Grand Central Station through the LIRR 63rd Street tunnel in 2010 could then back out of the station and run up Park Avenue into Metro-North country (assuming catenary were installed all the way into GCT instead of third rail).
A strange puppy is Boston's Blue Line between Bowdoin and the Wonderland Dog Track. It starts out on third-rail power; when the train stops at the Logan Airport station (from where a shuttle bus runs you to your terminal), the T/O raises a pantograph and the train continues on overhead power. The third-rail ends somewhere past the outbound end of the airport stop.
"In order to get lots of power, like the 4,400kW needed for an ALP44 (Am I wrong? does the 44 in ALP44 mean 4.4 megawatts?), then you need to either have a substation every mile along the line, or you need to go with some serious voltage, hence the 11.5 and 25kv sections of the NEC."
Yes, true. But look at the duel-power locos in LIRR service. Aren't they at least 3000-4000 horses (not insignificant). They run on third rail.
Whoops, sorry, there was a bit of metric-standard confusion there, but hey, if NASA does it, we should be expected to do it at least 3 more times this week...
Anyway, that's 4,400,000 watts, the metric equivilant to horsepower. That works out to 6000 some horses, which raises just more questions. I thought the ALP44 and AEM7 were roughly identical, the AEM7 is 7000hp apparantly, if the ALP44 is indeed 4.4 Megawatts, then it's some 1000 hp short of an AEM7. Course perhaps this is NJT's dumbing down of the ALPs so that they don't end up with too powerful an engine (is there even such a thing? I suppose Hp/weight should be kept to a certain level). It could also be that the AEM7's 7 represents a short time load of 7000 hp, but the ALP44 is for the sustainable hp that the locomotive could put out. Oh well
Where's Philip Nasadowski?
I was just wondering this.
HELP PHIL!
A strange puppy is Boston's Blue Line between Bowdoin and the Wonderland Dog Track. It starts out on third-rail power; when the train stops at the Logan Airport station (from where a shuttle bus runs you to your terminal), the T/O raises a pantograph and the train continues on overhead power. The third-rail ends somewhere past the outbound end of the airport stop.
The Skokie Swift also switches between third rail, at the Howard terminal and catenary at Skokie. The pan goes up automatically when the car is no longer fed by third rail and comes down automatically when third rail is encountered.
Very nice photos!
That is one SERIOUS junction.
That is one SERIOUS junction.
You got that right! Howard is the northern terminus of the Red Line, so there are tracks into the yard to the right and tracks out of the yard to the left. There are also loop tracks for trains remaining in service. Plus the Purple Line to Evanston and the Yellow Line to Skokie makes the pedestrian overpass at the end of the platform a worthwhile railfanning location.
The Skokie Swift also switches between third rail, at the Howard terminal and catenary at Skokie.
But that won't be the case much longer. Recently announced plans call for the conversion of the entire Skokie line to third rail, as well as a possible extension of the line (don't remember how far and I've already passed on the latest Railfan to my older son... any of our Chicago folks know more?).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah yes, the 2001 Chicago SubTalk field trip. Pre-9/11, when you guys were able to walk down the terminal at Midway with me before boarding!
Ah yes, the 2001 Chicago SubTalk field trip. Pre-9/11, when you guys were able to walk down the terminal at Midway with me before boarding!
Yes, those "good ole days" won't be back for a long time, if ever. We were, however, asked to stop studying the x-ray machine and the check-in security procedures on our way out after we left you to wait for your plane.
There was no fear of railfan photography, either.
Why don't you tell me Dudey? You seem to always have all the answers.
Sorry mikey, I don't have all the answers. The difference between us is that I don't make statements I can't document nor do I speak of things I don't know about.
If that were true you wouldn't post at all.
From photographic evidence and a prior Subtalk post, I believe that catenary was dropped during the Penn Central era as a cost cutting measure. Either that or when MNRR rebuilt the NY portion of the overhead in the 90's they didn't want the added expense of re-doing that segment of track, but I believe the former is correct.
It should be self evident that an overhead wire system is more maintainence intensive than 3rd rail. The wire pulldowns, pantograph shoe snags and burn throughs alone are enough to drive the cost above 3rd rail. If you need to repair the overhead it requires specialty labour and special equipment (namely a wire train). The SEPTA guy on a shop tour I got was going on and on about it.
The bottom line is you posted a belief as a fact. You have no firm data to back up tour claim yet you still insist that you are correct. Correct based only on ego, mikey. You betray yourself.
actually according to fellow Co workers, CDOT doesnt want Third rail in conneticut. i think its illegal as well
Third rail is in fact illegal in the State of Connecticut.
[CDOT doesnt want third rail in Conneticut.]
Let me guess - it makes the railroad look too much like the "low class" subway.
- - - - -
[I think its illegal as well.]
If so, such a law would have been motivated solely by the fact that a third rail makes the railroad look too much like the "low class" subway.
Did Connecticut also retain "blue" laws to protect its fragile and delicate citizens from scummy low-lifes who dance and go shopping on Sunday and have various forms of sex in the privacy of their own bedrooms?
Actually, they still do have them.
Connecticut does not have blue laws restricting store openings on Sunday -- unlike Bergen County, New Jersey!
The Blue laws are supported today by the liquor lobby. In the absence of such laws, alcoholic beverage stores have to be open 7 days a week. The reason is that if one store isn't, the store that IS open on that extra day gets all that day's sales. The blue laws allow for the collusive outcome, namely a store to get 7 days worth of sales in 6 days.
"The Blue laws are supported today by the liquor lobby. In the absence of such laws, alcoholic beverage stores have to be open 7 days a week. The reason is that if one store isn't, the store that IS open on that extra day gets all that day's sales. The blue laws allow for the collusive outcome, namely a store to get 7 days worth of sales in 6 days."
Is there any reason why you couldn't make that argument for any industry by simply substituting for the word liquor?
Yes. It depends on the demand for the good. If the delay in consumption will cause people not to consume or to consume less, then these laws would not help industry. In Connecticut, where I attend college, everybody is aware of the laws and simply remember to change their schedual's accordingly. Alcoholic beverages sold in stores are generally something people buy for specific events or to generally keep in stock. Because store bought alcoholic beverage consumption is largely pre-planned, these laws are good for industry. The same laws applied to let's say a bar, where consumption is much more spontanious, would hurt industry. This is why bars can close at 2 and why package stores close at 8.
Not to mention, MA, RI and NY stores on the CT state line love CT's backwards liquor laws.
2am? Heh, you mean after 2am, the Red Dog is actually closed? Heh...
It's 12:45 in Hartford. Man, that's sad.
What I love about Hartford, though, is how it's become the, err, 'entertainment' capital of the Northeast. Kahoots has two places, one to serve the Pratt crowd and another for the rednecks out in Vernon....
Phil,
You mention Red Dog. Is that as in Red Dog Saloon?
We had a Red Dog Saloon in V. N. down Vung Tau way. Any Connection?
Avid
I dount it. It's a little biker bar at the end of Middletown on the the way to Meriden. You can't miss it, in part because of the burnout marks all over it's driveway >:)
Tnx any way.
avid
I wonder if that qualifies for the term "restraint of trade?"
OK. That's fine. But you haven't addressed the dancing and bedroom laws (don't know if those are in force in CT).
>> If so, such a law would have been motivated solely by the fact that a third rail makes the railroad look too much like the "low class" subway. <<
...or perhaps by the fact that far fewer people have been electrocuted by catenary wires while walking along the tracks than by third rails.
Just a thought...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Well then I will ask how many people have been electrocuted by MTA 3rd rail? I know a boy was on LI this summer but why doesn't it happen more? There are places all over that have 3rd rail right out in the open (PineLawn I think is one-Now sure its a memorial park but still you can just walk into it) Does anyone have stats on accidents involving 3rd rail?
"or perhaps by the fact that far fewer people have been electrocuted by catenary wires while walking along the tracks than by third rails. "
Very unlikely, since the law applies to all ROW, whether isolated or not. It's clearly an image thing.
>>Very unlikely, since the law applies to all ROW, whether isolated or not. It's clearly an image thing<<
How can you say that? Third rail is obviously more dangerous than catenary -- you have to climb up a pole to get electrocuted by catenary.
"How can you say that? Third rail is obviously more dangerous than catenary -- you have to climb up a pole to get electrocuted by catenary."
And that has happened on more than one occasion. One horrible case involved a boyfriend and girlfriend who amused themselves by seeing who could climb faster up a catenary pole. One of the won the race, touched the wire and died instantly.
Overhead wires are dangerous if you're flying kites or string-controlled airplanes that fly into them, and if you are involved in mischief on overpasses where the catenary wire is relatively close to you. In many places the catenary is easier to mess with, in that sense, than a third rail.
Subway ROW is secured in the sense that you have to purposefully trespass through a meaningful barrier (off of an elevated platform, through a locked gate, etc. etc.) The third rail is also quite visible.
If Connecticut's ban covered only ROW like the LIRR's, where you can walk onto the ROW from a RR crossing without anything stopping you, or where provisions for fencing can be inadequate, I could buy a safety-related argument (maybe).
But this is a blanket ban on all forms of third rail. Its snob motive is transparent, and clearly has nothing to do with safety.
I'm really not buying into this snob argument.
I guess I just fail to see why a third rail is considered any lower class than overhead wires.
There are plenty of busses making their way around Ct. And the M-2/4/6 look just as much like subway cars as the M-1/3's. Yet the supposed third rail rule is somehow elitist?
I think RonInBaysideErPhillyErKansasCity has a burr in his newfound midwestern saddle for our friends in the Nutmeg State.
(BTW, Welcome Back Ron -- hope you had a safe trip and an easy move)
CG
[Connecticut is] the Nutmeg State.
I thought it was the Constitution State.
No wait, I thought it was the Charter Oak State!
Years ago it was known as The Toll Booth State. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"I thought it was the Constitution State.
No wait, I thought it was the Charter Oak State! "
... or my personal favorite The "Land of Steady Habits"
CG
Which habits would those be?
:0)
Apparently one of the habits is passing laws that people will (mis)construe to be elitist in nature.
CG
HA!
"I'm really not buying into this snob argument.
I guess I just fail to see why a third rail is considered any lower class than overhead wires. "
I agree with you 100%. But this thread isn't about us, after all.
"There are plenty of busses making their way around Ct. And the M-2/4/6 look just as much like subway cars as the M-1/3's. Yet the supposed third rail rule is somehow elitist?"
Maybe the point is to head off subway development. An M1 is fine, as long as it's filled with people paying several dollars per ride.
"There are plenty of busses making their way around Ct."
Yes, there are. And there are, unfortunately, NIMBYs who think that a bus on their street lowers property values.
As for Kansas City: The move went OK. I'm still disoriented. Tomorrow I'm going to use Kansas City Area Transportation Authority to get to the airport to meet my wife. Let's see if I can actually make a one-way trip in under an hour.
Dan Lawrence brought up some historical information that refutes my theory. You win, I learn.
The only reference that I could find as to why the New Haven line was fitted with overhead catenary was that they didn't believe third rail technology could support high speeds at the time it was installed.
Nothing about image. I doubt very much that Ct. had the swanky/snobby image it has earned today back in the early 20th century when these decisions were made.
I would think most of that developed in the last 30-40 years when Ct. had no state income tax and the high paid execs moved there to escape much of the NYS tax.
You're absolutely right.
The only reference that I could find as to why the New Haven line was fitted with overhead catenary was that they didn't believe third rail technology could support high speeds at the time it was installed.
Nothing about image. I doubt very much that Ct. had the swanky/snobby image it has earned today back in the early 20th century when these decisions were made.
I would think most of that developed in the last 30-40 years when Ct. had no state income tax and the high paid execs moved there to escape much of the NYS tax.
The parts of Connecticut along the New Haven line have been quite upscale, at least some parts of them, for many decades. I'm not certain whether that image goes all the way back to the early 20th Century, but it may.
"The only reference that I could find as to why the New Haven line was fitted with overhead catenary was that they didn't believe third rail technology could support high speeds at the time it was installed."
That's reasonable. I don't know whether you can run a train at 125 mph on third rail. Maybe yes, maybe no.
But deciding to equip a track with catenary wires is NOT the same as banning third rail throughout the state. My original argument stands.
"But deciding to equip a track with catenary wires is NOT the same as banning third rail throughout the state. My original argument stands. "
Not really. You've thrown out a conjecture with absolutely no supporting fact. You've made an argument that nobody has been able to factually support or refute. That hardly means it's true.
OK.
So you tell me why third rail should be banned (blanket-ban, everywhere) and post the statistics to support it.
Mind you, I have nothing against catenary. I don't care what kind of electric power supply gets put up, as long as I reach my destination. However, NIMBYs tend to not like catenary.
125mph might not be, but 100mph was proven with the M-1s.
Realize that in 1908, third rail required rotating equipment at frequent substations, and it was already apparent the serious HP limitation that it provided.
AC was seen as a major breakthrough, since it allowed high HP, was initially simpler, and fairly flexible.
I would say the height of pre electronic era RR traction would be the 3kv DC system. It was very successful, and combined the best of both types. Once rectifiers became practical (mid - late 50's), DC ceased to be a worthwhile avenue for mainline traction.
Thank you for that helpful post.
Given that, if I were in charge, I would take the necessary steps to increase MAS to 90 or even 100 mph on LIRR's main lines.
Of course, I'm not in charge.
Actually, third rail is illegal in Ct. It dates to a center-mounted 600 volt third rail experimented with in the late 19th Century on a brach line in southern Ct. Several person were elctrocuted/shocked/burned by it. The Legislature banned third rail in the state in 1903, AFAIK, as a result.
In the thread about dates of railroad electrification, Jersey Mike mentioned WJ&S from Camden to Millville and Atlantic City, 1904 to 1906.
The West Jersey & Seashore was third rail all the way from Camden to Atlantic City except for a couple miles in Gloucester City, where trolley wire was mandated for safety. The conductor would put up the pole on the fly, except that the express trains that didn't stop in Gloucester got up enough speed to coast through the non-third rail distance.
Third rail in Camden
The state also FORCED the WJ&S to install a wooden cover over the 3rd rail after several electrocutions. In the first few years of operation the 3rd rail was naked.
OK. So I have to take back my incorrect assertion regarding the reasons for a third-rail ban.
And the reason for not repealing this ban is: Because the issue has never come up?
"And the reason for not repealing this ban is: Because the issue has never come up?"
It's hard enough to get a legislature to undo a silly law when there are no consequences. This one would require extensive public hearings and testimony by experts. As long as no railroad asks for permission to run third rail, there is no reason to do the work to undo the ban.
OK, that's reasonable.
I asked the power guys at the MNR Croton-Harmon open house this question. They are happy with catenary because the hi-v AC gives takes so much lighter switches and wires than the DC on the other two lines. I've only glanced at the posts about LIRR's AC 3rd rail -- maybe this will go back to Hartford as an issue after the merger. God knows I've had to wait for enough trains after a tree-limb > cable > pantograph > stuck-train incident.
According to what I had heard, they had one fatality once, and a knee-jerk-reaction legislator passed a law.
Elias
Where and how?
I repeat the rumors, I do not support them or back them up.
Nonetheless, this I have heard at Branford, both this past year, and when I was there 20 years ago, so if rumor it is, it has substantial roots.
Elias
I asked a MNRR engineer about it. He said the 3rd rail was supposed to go to New Rochelle so that in an emergency Harlem/Hudson cars could around, but the town of Pehlem said no third rail.
...but the town of Pehlem said no third rail.
And MTA didn't think that was a battle worth fighting (Metro-North would not have needed township permission, but you don't want to piss off people unnecessarily)
"the town of Pehlem said no third rail."
Nimby at its worst. There's nothing even remotely resembling a grade crossing in Pelham.
On the other hand, it's not clear what benefit there is to the Harlem Line cars being able to make it to New Rochelle. There's no third rail from there to anywhere.
I asked a MNRR engineer about it. He said the 3rd rail was supposed to go to New Rochelle so that in an emergency Harlem/Hudson cars could turn around, but the town of Pehlem said no third rail.
Story: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/47448p-44608c.html
Not likely to be implemented...
I see this plan being floated... out to sea.
Alas, you are right. I love the idea, but how would you implement it with tourists etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> how would you implement it with tourists etc <<<
Implementation would not be a problem. Proof of residence would have to be shown to purchase the card. I doubt that a state agency (MTA) would go for it though.
Tom
Actually, some discussion has started in the Bay area of "transit pass" benefit for residents who do not register/own cars. This would be less of a factor in NYC, but the basic idea is to reward those who decrease pollurion.
Better to simply penalize those who pollute -- otherwise you'll end up excluding some non-polluters from your promotion.
Shortly after 9/11, when the HOV restrictions on the East River bridges went into effect, the Shea Stadium parking lot was heavily promoted. IIRC, the parking fee was $2 for the day, and a free Fun Pass was thrown in. Yet someone who didn't have a car at all had to pay $4 for that same Fun Pass. It's wonderful that some people only drove as far as Flushing and didn't continue the rest of the way into Manhattan -- but isn't it even more wonderful that some other people didn't even drive to Flushing?
Excellent point. The people who walked or rode a bus to Flushing should have gotten a little special something, too.
What about the people who walked or rode a bus to any other subway station?
>>> the Shea Stadium parking lot was heavily promoted. IIRC, the parking fee was $2 for the day, and a free Fun Pass was thrown in. Yet someone who didn't have a car at all had to pay $4 for that same Fun Pass. <<<
Hello! The key word here is "promotion." You provide a loss leader to get people to change the way they used to do things in the hope that they will continue to do those same things at regular prices later. The fact that they get a better deal than someone else is irrelevant.
Tom
In general, it is extremely difficult to impossible to convey a benefit in such a bald-faced manner to residents of any area, especially where state and federal subsidies are involved.
Such preferences can generally pass muster if they can be implemented in a seemingly neutral way. One example is "one city, one fare," which is more valuable to a person living at the end of a bus line in Mill Basin than to someone on the Upper West Side who only travels in Manhattan, or someone who only uses it to go to work 5 days a week, versus someone who also uses it for recreation and shopping. All pay the same $63 and all can in theory use it in the same way.
Probably the only way a "resident-only" MetroCard could be implemented is if the city directly subsidized the card for residents--i.e., non-resident card is $85, resident card is $75, the City reimburses the TA for $10 each time a city resident buys a MC. That won't happen, at least not unless Bloomberg wants to dip into his personal fortune--it might buy him reelection, though. ;-)
Perhaps we should have resident-only LIRR tickets for Nassau-Suffolk dwellers. Let NYC people coming out here to work, play at Jones Beach, etc. pay higher fares.
Regular LIRR and Metro-North commuters (in either direction, but the vast majority obviously live in the suburbs) already get huge discounts off the per-ticket fare. Regular Metro-North commuters (I don't know about LIRR) also appear to get a 60% discount on monthly unlimited MetroCards (IIRC). The subways have a higher fare recovery ratio than the commuter railroads to begin with, and the MTA's fare hike proposals raise the subway/bus/SIR fare proportionately more than the commuter rail fare.
Now, I do think the idea of resident subway discounts is ridiculous. I think the idea, and de facto current practice, of transportation subsidies from the city to the suburbs is equally ridiculous.
I agree with you, NOTP, on the first point. Do you agree with me on the second?
MNRR customers get a 9% discount on the rail fare when purchasing a $60 or $63 metrocard. No discount on metrocard.
Not according to WebTicket.
As an example, I got the info for a monthly ticket from Ansonia to Harlem. The one-way fare is $14; a monthly ticket costs $297. Assuming 20 work days in the month and two peak trips per work day, that's a 53% discount. (But that's an aside.)
Then I asked for connecting NYCT service. I was quoted the same $297 plus $25 for the MetroCard, which I assume to be unlimited.
So, apparently, if I ride Metro-North regularly, not only am I eligible for a 53% discount on my commuter rail fare, I'm also eligible for a 60% on my subway fare.
But I don't ride Metro-North regularly, since I live in the city -- so I'm stuck paying full price not only on occasional Metro-North rides but also on the subway.
(In general, it is extremely difficult to impossible to convey a benefit in such a bald-faced manner to residents of any area, especially where state and federal subsidies are involved.)
Unless its Staten Island and tolls.
In general, it is extremely difficult to impossible to convey a benefit in such a bald-faced manner to residents of any area, especially where state and federal subsidies are involved.
Unless its Staten Island and tolls.
Ostensibly, the toll is the same for SI residents and non-residents. The difference between the SI resident toll and the full toll is supposed to be a special surcharge of no more than a certain percentage with SI residents exempted from the surcharge but they pay the full toll.
If that sounds like BS to you, you ain't alone. A dude living in Brooklyn and working in a deli on SI pays more to use the bridge than a similarly dude-like induvidual living on SI and working at a Brooklyn deli.
If Brooklyn dude were to sue, I bet that house of cars could come tumbling down, but he;d be suing on his own dime. I doubt any public interest group would take up the cause.
So why are resident discounts on surcharges okay if resident discounts on tolls aren't?
The Rockaways bridges have a similar resident discount scheme -- and even Broad Channel residents can participate, even though they're north of the bridge.
So why are resident discounts on surcharges okay if resident discounts on tolls aren't?
As I implied, I think it's a legal fiction which might not stand up to a court test.
The Rockaways bridges have a similar resident discount scheme -- and even Broad Channel residents can participate, even though they're north of the bridge.
The Rockaways situation is a bit different. A fund is maintained dedicated to making up the difference in the tolls, kind of like what I said about the City subsidizing resident's MetroCards, if they chose.
Ostensibly, the toll is the same for SI residents and non-residents. The difference between the SI resident toll and the full toll is supposed to be a special surcharge of no more than a certain percentage with SI residents exempted from the surcharge but they pay the full toll.
Wasn't the discount - sorry, exemption from surcharge - instituted about when SI was making noises about wanting to secede from the city?
Wasn't the discount - sorry, exemption from surcharge - instituted about when SI was making noises about wanting to secede from the city?
Yes.
I heard from someone that Bee Line buses have cheaper tokens (than the base fare), sold to Westchester County residents (proof needed), so NYC should do this as well
I checked the Bee Line site and the Wesrchester Couty Government site and see no discounts except for the usual Senior Citizens discount and multi-ride books. No mention of special treatment for Westchester County residents.
SHHH! It's a secret!
Just like those secret Second Avenue Subway trains. They finished that line years ago but don't want anybody to know because they want to milk the city dry funding "planning studies."
Hmm... Since the base fare of the Bee Line is $1.40, it could be argued that a discount is made compare with the NYMTA...
If it is then how would they program the MVM's?
Pre-register a credit card?
Have the address checked?
What about business card in the city for a suburbinite?
What about friends in the city buying for you?
The questions can go on anf on !!
PS--Happy New Year !!!!
Have their been anymore deliveries?
AMTRAK MODELIN'
It seems like there has been a huge number of postings today. Is this some sort of one-day record, at least for a day when nothing particularly newsworthy has happened?
Your post is the 424th post since midnight. Yes that is a lot! I don't think it sets a record though.
Is it a FULL MOON?
Peace,
ANDEE
It started last night. I usually read Subtalk on my laptop in the evening, while watching TV. TV seems like a waste of time to me sometimes, so it kills two birds with one stone. Last night, I couldn't "finish" looking at SubTalk, it just went on and on!
Well, I seem to be making a posting record of my own. This I think will be my 63rd post since Midnight.
That's what happens during school break. All the junior high and high school students spend their day here.
the most posts was on 9/11, this might set a record for a day where nothing note worthy happen though
Here are the numbers:
{from midnight to midnight}
12/25: 356 posts
12/26: 479 posts
12/27: 362 posts
12/28: 293 posts
12/29: 555 posts
12/30: 1,148 posts! {Though you may wish not to count the 6 posts that were speculation over the number of posts, ie the posts of this thread.}
I'm not sure where you got the numbers from, that last one is way off. Normally I wouldn't do this because it just encourages idiocy but according to the database here's the post counts by date.
2002-12-01, 387
2002-12-02, 437
2002-12-03, 385
2002-12-04, 272
2002-12-05, 323
2002-12-06, 292
2002-12-07, 263
2002-12-08, 290
2002-12-09, 517
2002-12-10, 490
2002-12-11, 463
2002-12-12, 455
2002-12-13, 431
2002-12-14, 315
2002-12-15, 346
2002-12-16, 367
2002-12-17, 357
2002-12-18, 412
2002-12-19, 455
2002-12-20, 305
2002-12-21, 217
2002-12-22, 338
2002-12-23, 298
2002-12-24, 382
2002-12-25, 356
2002-12-26, 379
2002-12-27, 362
2002-12-28, 293
2002-12-29, 540
2002-12-30, 698
2002-12-31, 163
I do not have an easy way of figuring out the busiest 24 hour periods (sliding window), however the busiest calendar days ever were 956 posts on 9/12/2001 and 807 on 9/11/2001.
Oh well, I guess subtracting the post numbers wasn't as accurate as I thought it would be.
Well before you start a s***storm about where 400 posts might have gone on 12/30 (between your number of around 1,100 and my count of 698) why don't you do your math again?
First post, 12/30:
426356:DATE>Mon Dec 30 00:00:01 2002
Last post, 12/30:
427053:DATE>Mon Dec 30 23:59:58 2002
427053-426356 = 697
-Dave
However you count it, 697 postings in 24 hours is quite an accomplishment. That's more than an average day's count for the main board at airliners.net, which has 10,000 registered members.
You're absolutely right. Sorry to cause any problems.
I don't know if it set a record but at one point yesterday night, there were 676 messages posted and as of right now, there are 630 messages, guess everyone is getting ready for the new year.
I JUST WANT TO SAY HAPPY HOLIDAYS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EACH AND EVERY FAMILY AND RAILFAN/TA WORKER REPRESENTED HERE. MAY 2003 BRING US ALL LOTS OF HAPPY RAILFAN TRIPS, HAPPY MEMORIES AND MANY MORE. MAY 2003 BRING U FAST SPEEDY TRIPS ON ANY RAILROAD, NO TIMERS, OR FAST CLEARING TIMERS, MAY U ALSO HAVE MOTORMAN AND ENGINEERS INSTEAD OF TRAIN OPERATORS, AND CHICKEN OPERATORS. ALSO FOR THOSE WONDERING, AS U ALL KNOW, METRO NORTH HAS ID CARDS THAT CHANGE COLOR BY THE YEAR. THE 2002 CARD WAS GREEN LOOKIN LIKE THE 5 TRAIN. NOW ITS A LIGHT BLUE COLOR. ANYWAYS IM HOPING MINE WILL SAY ENGINEER SOON ENUF! ANYWAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS FROM ALL OF US AT THE MTA METRO NORTH RAILROAD.
And a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family. Happy railfanning too.
May you have a happy and prosperous New Year. When traveling again in the Northeast, you know I'll be riding!
NO MORE SPEED CHICKENS AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU TOO!
BTW, HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO YOU IN A LONG TIME, WHAT'S GOING ON???
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
My Brothers of Rail: In the hole, in the hole, IN THE HOLE B I E
A BLAST WITH THE LORDS GRACES IN THE NEW YEAR. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Does it serve a purpose? Do trains come in and out.
>> Does it serve a purpose? <<
You're kidding right?
Have you ever looked at the yard? It's the primary storage site for trainsets heading out from Penn Station. Where would you propose the LIRR store trains overnight for LI-bound morning service?
I used to work in what is now called the Daily News Building (which I believe in the Penn-Central days was known as the West Yards Building), with great views of the yard. It is in constant motion.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Not to mention midday trains and temporary storage if a train set is a few minutes too early to be used.
I've often heard the announcement: "No passengers, this train is going to the west side yard" to prevent people from getting on the train as others are getting off after it arrives at Penn.
O my bad. because everytime im down there it seems dead
AMTRAK MODELIN
The LIRR was dying for a storage yard. Before the west side yard trains discharged at Penn and after rush had to deadhead back out to Jamicia for storage, then deadhead back into Penn.
Even today with the lack of track space think of the headaches back then. Great money saver and even helps when trains fail you don't have to wait for a set to come from Long Island.
Okwhat if they build a new staduim ex. Yankees,Jets,or Knicks.Would they just build over it. Hmmm
>> ...Ok what if they build a new staduim ex. Yankees,Jets...Would they just build over it<<
Yes, they would. If you've read any of the proposals for a West-side stadium, you'd know that they ALL specify that it would be built "on a platform" on top of the LIRR yard.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Ok just checking, Dont have to yell.lol
AMTRAK MODELIN'
It wouldn't be a problem....the New York Central had Mott Haven Yard where all their long-distance passenger stuff in/out of GCT was yarded and serviced....and in the late 1960's a major apartment complex was built right over the yard with minimum interruption.
(The yard was east of the Grand Concourse at 153rd Street--behind Cardinal Hayes HS. Got hit with all too many flying erasers when I went to school there, for watching the trains instead of the teachers!)
I had heard somewhere that the Last of the Rockaway Branch ROW was disconnected from the LIRR after West Side Yard was opened up, is this true or a myth?
--MetsFan4552
So it's a great railfan spot.
But where along side the yard can you stand to see over the wall and into the yard?
---Brian
The south sidewalk of Thirty-third closer to Twelfth.
"Does it serve a purpose? Do trains come in and out."
It serves as a place for trains to be stored between rush hours eliminating dead heading to yards as far away as Babylon. They used to do that, wasting power and adding to wear and tear on the M-1's.
There is also supposed to be an inspection shed there too. Also, trains are cleaned there. Trains usually discharge on Tracks 20 and 21 and head west to the yard for cleaning, storage etc. The yard was one of the best things for the LIRR in years. Before that there was outdoor storage on a couple of tracks against the north retaining wall between Penn Station and the Hudson River tubes.
The official name of this yard is the John D. Cammerer (sp?) Yard.
Bill "Newkirk"
What was it like before 1986 when West Side Yard was there? Well, only 20 or so cars could be stored there, so that meant trains had to back track to eastern points for storage such as Babylon, Long Beach, etc. Hillside was not finished until 1989, and Ronkonkoma was not done until 1987. O.K., the M3's were not there until 1984-1985, but still, Morris Park was the backbone of all of the LIRR's storage during off-peak hours.
Actually, Morris Park was the backbone of LIRR's storage of LOCO HAULED trains.....believe it or not, Morris Park did NOT have third rail except in what was designated as "C" Yard (those tracks that enter the mainline just before it dropped ino Jay Tower area). Many MU trains were stored around Jamaica station (six tracks on the north side, a couple on the south side which held 2 trains each)
The MU trains, as you mentioned above that, went back out to Babylon (17 tracks), Long Beach (I believe 6 stoarge tracks plus some of the station tracks were used), and Hempstead (again, some of the station tracks were used.
I am surprised that LIRR did NOT use the "yard" at Belmont Race Track for mid-day storage prior to the opening of the West Side Yard.
The Flatbush trains did have a layup yard...it was open-air, switches to the yard can be seen between Nostrand and Flatbush.
And it still is!
1) I will not beat up the turnstile when it says "SWIPE AGAIN...SWIPE AGAIN...SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE..." for the 10th time with a NEW MetroCard
2) I will stop looking for the cartoon display at the abandoned Myrtle Ave. BMT station (it's been, what, 22 years since that thing went dark?)
3) On paydays, I will stop telling all my crews at work that "the money has arrived! The money has arrived!"
4) I will board the FIRST "A" Train that is going to Far Rock instead of waiting for R-38s to show up. Maybe.
5) I do truly resolve in the coming year to take more of our patients off of trains instead of taking trains off of our patients...(I'm an EMT)... and wish EVERYBODY a SAFE, HAPPY, HEALTHY New Year!
Does anyone know what this is?
---Brian
Sure looks like an old-fashioned air-raid siren to me
Cool. Thanks.
great picture of what times must have been like back then. a good ol air raid siren. does anybody remember praciticing for air raids in school. going under desks or sitting in the halls of the public schools. now this was in the late 1950's and 60's. I am not that old
now ha ha
when I was in 6th grade we did this (air raid drills) and I remember asking the teacher why we had to "duck and cover" under our desks if the shock wave was going to knock the school down anyway. Got sent to the principal for that one...
Duck and Cover.
I read somewhere what you're supposed to do is
1) Duck under the desk
2) Roll into a ball and
3) Kiss your butt goodbye!
I use to live across the street from PS 20 on Adelhpi st just one block from Myrtle ave and that great El. Everytime they did a drill all I wanted to do was run across the street and go down our basement and play with my fathers HO traim lay out. It don't get any better than that. A basement, more trains and no windows just a set of stairs with two metal door leading out to the back yard.
Did the teacher press the independent thought alarm?
Did Willy take the colored chalk out of the classrooms after that?
Didn't your mother ever tell you "if you break your leg don't come crying to me?" If you suffer a broken leg you ain't goin anywhere....
Similar to the old adage....."you better eat all the food on your plate because there are people starving in (you fill in the county)! Of course if you suggested sending them a doggie bag......Even though the food in the bag would be quite moldy by the time it arrived at the starving people.
I did. Our retort (always kept inside the head since the teachers didn't appreciate it) was "Put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye."
During the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis we were sure the world was going to end. Nobody knew that the Ruskies were as scared of nuclear death as we were. They backed down and pulled the missles out of Castroland.
"Does anyone know what this is?"
That's an air raid siren. Probably installed either during WW II or the earlu 60's Cold War days. This device is supposed to warn citizens of an attack either by planes etc. Not sure if that one still works.
Bill "Newkirk"
How do we find out if it still works? :)
Call up or E-Mail the Mayor's Office Of Emergency Management (MOEM) which coordinates all of the city's emergency services and resources. Possibly air-raid sirens are maintained by FDNY (I'll ask my boss) or by DGS.
I think they're ripe for the scrap heap, in light of today's cell phone and electronic society. The air-raid siren is now a useless relic of our country's paranoid years (1940s thru the 1970's).
well, what happens when our "electronic village" doesn't function, as happened in, for instance, the blackout of 7/13/77? Sirens, especially mechanical ones as this one is, convey a clear message over a large area instantly, without dependence on complicated technology. Outside of the newer rolling stock, incidentally, the NYC subway system employs remarkably simple devices to operate its system.
However, you're assuming that those old air-raid sirens could also function as P.A. systems -- something I seriously doubt. They let out a high pitched shrill wailing sound that grows in intensity and then subsides gradually (like those old fashioned firetruck sirens).
If they do not have PA ability, then if/when a citywide emergency occurs and the sirens are activitied what would it all mean to the citizens besides an alarm has sounded? During the Cold War years at least the populace was instructed -- from advanced training -- to head for the nearest Fall-Out shelters (usually the basement of a concrete building) once the air-raid sirens were activited. It just wouldn't work with this generation unless people were made aware of their signifance.
Those things were a motor and a big drum mounted to it with air holes. No plugin for Senor Microphone. So any junior Jam masters will still have to give Ron Popeil that money. :)
However, you're assuming that those old air-raid sirens could also function as P.A. systems -- something I seriously doubt. They let out a high pitched shrill wailing sound that grows in intensity and then subsides gradually (like those old fashioned firetruck sirens).
If they do not have PA ability, then if/when a citywide emergency occurs and the sirens are activitied what would it all mean to the citizens besides an alarm has sounded? During the Cold War years at least the populace was instructed -- from advanced training -- to head for the nearest Fall-Out shelters (usually the basement of a concrete building) once the air-raid sirens were activited. It just wouldn't work with this generation unless people were made aware of their signifance.
I don't think any Siren has the capabilty to act as a PA, really all your doing is making something like a giant, evil sounding saxophone, try talking through one of those. All it is is compressed air blown over some sort of massive reed in such a way to create one hell of a loud note, there is no attempt, except in the two tone ones, to create the complex noises necessary for speach.
I think in areas prone to tornados or other such violent weather, the air raid siren means run to the shelter and pull out the battery powered radio, tune it to the right station, and hope the twister hasn't tilted the transmitter yet. In this case the siren isn't the actual story on it, it's just the notification to move your rear and listen to the radio. This is much better than trying to project speech all over, it'd become all echoy and muddled, and with a storm bearing down it'd just be worse. This way you yell "hey" to get everybody's attention, then once they are ready to listen, your radio spits out the news, be it tornado, flood, nuclear war, whatever. I do think that several cities do special signals, a long unwavering blast means that a tornados coming, but I never even learned what the ones were in my old village outside Chicago, they only used it to call Voluteer Firemen to the firehouse.
All it is is compressed air blown over some sort of massive reed in such a way to create one hell of a loud note,
No, no compressed air. They are electric, and require a motor to turn them they generate their own wind with a fan and a spinning cage inside of that case, exactly like an old police or fire siren.
Elias
That one's not quite mechanical, its motor runs on AC current. In fact all of them were electrically operated.
wayne
my high school had one on the roof and I had the misfortune of having a class in room 327 and 227. So loud nothing could be done while the siren was tested.
Explains A lot.....9-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In Baltimore the city tests the sirens at 1:00 PM every Monday. Local joke is "Bomb the city at 1:00 PM on a Monday. Nobody will pay attention to it."
The city keeps the system (it is a relic of the cold war era) in good condition as it is useful for alerts like the 2001 tunnel fire. The sirens were sounded for 10 minutes and all television stations, radio stations and the local cable TV company all broadcast the alert message.
It's a relic of the 1950's, but it still serves a good purpose.
I do beleive that NYC tests the sirens, also.
They are barely audible.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think they're ripe for the scrap heap, in light of today's cell phone and electronic society. The air-raid siren is now a useless relic of our country's paranoid years
No, they really are not. Back on Long Island, they sounded the sirens every day at noon. indeed, they still do that here in North Dakota, except that until the past two or three years ago, they sounded it at 9PM in the winter or 10PM in the summer, and *that* was CERFEW... and the kiddies had to be off the streets. (Well, it was never enforced in recent memory, which is why they moved the test to noon, so the elders could sleep)
They used to use it to call out the fire department, but like you say they (we) all have pagers and so they don't use it for that either...
BUT THEY DO USE IT for TORNADO WARNINGS, and these the public must hear clearly weither they have a radio or not. So yes, they stall are serious business.
I do not know why they would put one on a subway station, but then I guess Brooklyn does have a dearth of telephone poles on which to install them.
Elias
Back on Long Island, they sounded the sirens every day at noon. indeed, they still do that here in North Dakota,
Some of the Fire Departments here on Long Island still sound them at noon yet now.
Actually, they used to sound in Brooklyn at 12 noon also. They haven't sounded in close to 20 or more years now.
Many volunteer fire departments on LI still have 'em and a lot still have the air horns also. There was a o/t thread about them in 1999 on this forum that started like this one talking about the sirens on top of el stations and veered off to LI Volunteer fire horns & sirens.
The thread is at:http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=65126 By the way, the "J" Train Station in front of Woodhull Hospital (not sure the station name but its where Bway crosses both Flushing Av & Graham Av by Woodhull) had one also until the recent renovations. Might still have it, not sure.
the "J" Train Station in front of Woodhull Hospital (not sure the station name but its where Bway crosses both Flushing Av & Graham Av by Woodhull)
You said it. Flushing Avenue.
In some parts of Brooklyn that have a heavy Orthodox Jewish population (e.g. Boro Park and Midwood), they use the air-raid sirens on Friday afternoons to indicate the time for lighting candles for the Sabbath.
subfan
>>> they use the air-raid sirens on Friday afternoons to indicate the time for lighting candles for the Sabbath. <<<
A definite no-no for public sirens.
Tom
Who says these sirens are still public? They could have been acquired privately and obtained the necessary permits.
Why? I fail to see how the use of the siren as an accomodation to the local community crosses the sacred church (synagogue?)/state divide any more than its use for secular purposes. If the siren were used to signal a nightly curfew for children (voluntary, of course, to get around the civil rights issue), would you object then?
BTW, at one point, a small number of local activists tried to have the Midwood siren stoped on the grounds that it disturbed the peace, but were unsuccessful, since the vast majority of the community was either in favor or indifferent to the small amount of additional noise - if the courts felt there was a real church/state issue here, don't you think they would have mentioned it?
subfan
Why? I fail to see how the use of the siren as an accomodation to the local community crosses the sacred church (synagogue?)/state divide any more than its use for secular purposes.
Because the government isn't supposed to have any accomodations for churches. If the religious community paid the government a fee to have the siren sound, and said service was available to any individual or group who wanted the siren sounded at various times, then it would be fair.
If the siren were used to signal a nightly curfew for children (voluntary, of course, to get around the civil rights issue).
You'd think that a nightly curfew for children would be a civil rights issue, but unfortunately many communities across the country have implemented these draconian regulations. Court rulings have struck down some on First Amendment grounds, but not all. No rulings have been made by the Supreme Court on the matter.
OK; I follow your logic re: an accomodation for a religious group, if only religious organizations receive such an accomodation; however, is there any reason to believe that if a similarly-large secular population group requested that the siren be sounded once a week for some other reason, the government would not try to accomodate them as well? The purpose of my curfew example was to illustrate just such a circumstance, not to agree or disagree regarding the constitutionality of curfews.
Regards, and don't take life too seriously,
subfan
If the siren is owned by the Synagogue and located on the roof of the Synagogue, then they are within their rights to sound it as long as it isn't after 10 or 11 PM. They sound like they are doing this as an accomodation to their members. Does anybody know how many sirens they have up?
wayne
You're right! I heard them when I lived in Midwood!
---Brian
At least from the point of view of the people on Kirimati in the Kiribati Islands, the first landmass to go from 2002 to 2003.
New York is UTC -5 while Kiribati is UTC +14, thus when it is Midnight Wednesday morning in Kiribati, it's 5 am Tuesday morning in New Yor. And hence, Subfan, with a posting time of 5:11 was the first to make a post in 2003. Old tom missed it by posting just two minutes too early, at 4:58am.
Happy New Year!
That's nice, but kind of funny, considering that I don't post from within the US.
subfan
>>> I do not know why they would put one on a subway station <<<
The highest public structure in the neighborhood, and it can be heard on both sides of the El structure.
Tom
When I was a kid, I remember that there was one of those things on EVERY subway station. At lease all the ones near me.
Here is a picture of one on Avenue N on the Culver line and 9th Avenue on the West End/Culver Shuttle:
BTW, both those pictures are from the mid 1970's
-Larry
A quick google search turned up Airraidsirens.com, which has a database of sirens. I am absolutely no expert on Sirens. Just playing, "which one looks the same," I was able to find that it looks like a Federal Signal Model 2,3,5 or 7, really they all look similar, although the Model 2 has an additional opening and is furthest from your photo of all them. It would be nice if it was a Model 2, they just need 120VAC @ 24 amp with 25-60Hz Single Phase, just plug and go.
Really it looks much more like a 3 or 5,7 (they group them that way). For a Model 3, you'll need to get Single Phase 240VAC @ 36Amps and it will produce 105db at 100ft with a 675hz note. I would say that the models 5 or 7 are the closest match of the Federal Signal sirens, to get one of them to bleat, you'll again need 240VAC at 56amps (what does it mean if theres an 'FL' between the # and the Amps? as in 56FLA), single phase, or you could find some 230VAC triple phase, I'm assuming the same Amperage. What do R143s use to drive their traction motors? Oh, and the Model 5 or 7 will put out 107 db single note or 105 db dual note, and will do so at 675hz or a 506/675hz dual note.
Hope I was some help, I stumbled across some siren collectors messageboards, maybe I'll post a link to your photo, see if anyone can identify it.
Wow, great information! Thanks a lot!
---Brian
I posted links to your photo and this thread on the Airraidsirens.com outdoor warning siren message board. I must say that if you thought discussions of whether the R42 is better than an R40M were obscure, check out this site, wierd. Course I don't speak the language, and Subtalk was quite obtuse when I first started posting, so it's all in the learning curve for a given area.
If I hear anything I'll be sure to tell you about it.
Oh, that was fast, no sooner had I posted the previous message and decided to reload the Airraidsirens.com messageboad page than I was greeted with a response.
'tboltkid520' says that it "looks to me like it is a model 2 without the bottom part of the cover."
Hmmm, if that's true, then maybe we can cause some havoc with nothing more than an extention cord and a plug. Do stations have 120VAC power? Would it make any difference to the siren if it's 3 phase? Or would somebody have to find a way to eliminate the other two phases before somebody could plug the siren in? Any idea on how to do this?
We'll see how the discussion goes...
If we rigged that thing up and set it off it would cause a panic. Like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. But it would be funny! (in the way that it is funny to yell "fire" in a crowded theater...)
>>> If we rigged that thing up and set it off it would cause a panic. <<<
That is doubtful. People might turn on radios and TVs, but that would be far from panic.
Tom
Are you kidding?
Most people wouldn't even know what the sound is. They will probably think that a police car or fire truck or ambulance is going by somewhere.
Siren collector's messageboard????? Who would've thought there's such a thing as an Air-raid siren buff?! :)
Siren collector's messageboard????? Who would've thought there's such a thing as an Air-raid siren buff?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
LOL!! See there's something for everyone on the internet!
...not ONLY will they identify it... once they get whiff
of it's location they'll sizzle up the blowtorch and
head to Sutter Av. to wait for a lull in overnight commuters.....
Well, at least it wasn't a Diaphone they had up there!
wayne
The City had three different sizes/shapes of air raid sirens, at least for the kind they had on el stations, poles, lamp posts & fire houses:
1) the 2-vaned medium size one at Sutter Avenue,
2) the 2-vaned Large size one they had at Flushing Avenue (J)
3) a smaller, 3-vaned one which was common on Staten Island and in the outer boroughs.
One exception was an odd-shaped one they had on the Claremont Parkway station of the 3d Avenue El, looked similar to the one at Sutter, but it had one vane and a short projecting tube sticking out the top.
wayne
Launch an air raid and see what happens?
You do it first. I'll follow.
Well, it probably DOES work, if someone can activate the motor circuitry. Follow the conduit down the entranceway and you will see that it's been disconnected.
Another one, much larger, survived on the roof of the Flushing Avenue "J" station (e/b side) until a couple years ago.
wayne
Thanks Wayne. It was driving me crazy. I couldn't remember where I saw one of those things before. I knew it wasn't the one at Sutter Ave. I was sure I'd seen one. It was at Flushing Avenue until they redid the roofs.
That's an air raid siren. Probably installed either during WW II or the earlu 60's Cold War days. This device is supposed to warn citizens of an attack either by planes etc. Not sure if that one still works.
Some volunteer fire departments use (or used) similar-looking sirens to alert their members to alarms. I know that there are some volunteer companies still functioning within city limits. Might there once have been one in the Sutter Avenue area?
Some volunteer fire departments use (or used) similar-looking sirens to alert their members to alarms. I know that there are some volunteer companies still functioning within city limits
Certainly around here anyway. Bellport, Hagerman, and Brookhaven Fire Departments all do. I can hear any three of them if there is a fire. People visiting me who are unfamiliar with the "Fire Siren" often jump and say, "What the hell is that"?
Up in Ossining, fire department sirens sound like
a constipated Cow Mooooooing (not you Unka SelkirK)..
Pleasantville, OTOH sounds like an air-horn straight
outta an r10.
Heh. Our cows are contented and the volunteer firehouse up here has a klaxon that sounds more like a highly amplified "whizzer ring" ... and a standard sireen as well. Yeah, I've heard those moo-like horns too when I lived over in Selkirk ... they'd quack too on a short blast. Confused the crimminy out of visitors ...
Those are probably Gamewell DIAPHONES. They have a tapered, cone-shaped horn (the end of the bell is NOT FLARED like a trumpet).
If you folks have these horns in your towns, let me know so I can send the information to:
The Gamewell Diaphone Website.
Diaphones are another hobby of mine. Closest one to our house is in Farmingdale NY, 6 miles away.
wayne
Baltimore has a bunch of sirens that resemble Gamewell Diaphones except the end of the horn is square, flaired and the unit rotates, which causes the sound to warble. As posted earlier, Baltimore maintains its sirens and still tests them regularly. The system was used to alert the population to the 2001 CSX Tunnel Fire. The unit I described was on top of School #236, where I went to elementary school in the 1950's. Last time I drove down Old Harford Road, I believe the unit is still there, painted yellow and still functioning. I will check Saturday and e-mail you if the unit is still there or has been replaced.
Those are sirens, Federal Thunderbolt model 1000 or 1003 to be exact.
Here on LI they can be found at Mineola, Holtsville, Deer Park, Copiague, and South Farmingdale. Also on top of the Nassau County Jail.
wayne
Wayne,
When we visited my Dad's relatives up on Middletown, NY during the 50's and 60's I'd hear these fire sirens, not sirens but huge blasting honks, sounding sort of like "C-R-A-A-H-H-O-U-H-M-M-PH!!!"
My Dad told me that there was a code, a certain number honks would specify a location or which firehouse or something like that. He remembered them from when he was growing up during the 20's and 30's.
Could this have been one of these Diaphones?
One other question, speaking of sirens; have you ever come across any information about the sirens used during the London Blitz in 1940. They are always heard in the background of documentaries about the period, and they consisted of two tones, probably a musical third apart warbling with this peculiar, unearthly sound.
I have received an e-mail hinting that Middletown's FD indeed had or has a Gamewell Diaphone. The number of "honks" corresponds to a fire alarm box location. I.E. Box 341 is pulled at 9th & Elm - so the horn sounds three times, pauses, sounds four times, pauses and sounds once.
Imagine living in New Hyde Park NY where they had boxes 991-995 in a highly flammable industrial area, and three diaphones, one sounding worse than the next.
The UK sirens are Carters' sirens.
Try this site for UK Air Raid Sirens.
The Gamewell Diaphone WebSite
wayne
Thanks for your answers Wayne. Great post! I'll show this to my Dad - I'm sure he'll find it interesting. Thanks too for the site about UK sirens.
"One other question, speaking of sirens; have you ever come across any information about the sirens used during the London Blitz in 1940. They are always heard in the background of documentaries about the period, and they consisted of two tones, probably a musical third apart warbling with this peculiar, unearthly sound."
They still used to test them when I was a kid in the late 40s and early 50s. (They were not only in London, they were all over Britain.) In peacetime, they were also sometimes used to call volunteer firemen to the fire station when an emergency call came in. The peacetime use (and tests) used a single tone, not the up-and-down tone. In WW2 (which I can't remember, since I was only one year old at VE day) the up-an-down was the air-raid warning, and the single tone was the all-clear, to indicate that the bombing raid was over (until the next time!).
Fytton,
Thanks so much for your first hand recollection. The earliest television documentaries where I remember hearing these were the episodes of "Winston Churchill - The Valient Years." I think they were made by the BBC and shown here as well.
- Ed
An old air-raid siren. A relic from both WWII and the Cold War (remember "Duck and Cover"?). Would've came in handy if the Kieser invaded our shores or someone started to yell "the Russians are coming...the Russians are coming" (actually, they're here already).
Would make a neat collectible on Ebay....anyone got a blow torch? :)
Under the picture it says:
Air raid siren on the roof of the nb platform @ Sutter Av (L). Photo taken by Brian Weinberg, 12/29/2002. (60k)
Brian must've just updated it.
Yes, I updated it after hearing your responses... I'm not gonna look like a fool and keep calling it a "thingy" forever!
If you don't know what it is, it is a "thingy". No shame in saying that!
These guys are hosing you ... what that is is Heypaul's ORIGINAL Mr. Fusion flux capacitor lashup. Used to power the Arnine cab and some old radios. He resells the excess power to the Transit Authority which allows him a life of leisure. :)
These air raid sirens used to be mounted on lampposts till the late 60s.
Mind if I use for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
?
Sure, go ahead! Just give my name a little mention if ya can, I'm trying to become famous ;)
----Brian Weinberg
Sure, go ahead! Just give my name a little mention if ya can, I'm trying to become famous
Hey, speaking of famous, you made the air raid siren message board. That should be tthe goal in anyone's life.
Just kidding, I just never realized that there must be some message board somewhere for what ever interest someone has. And there's obviously enough to talk about air raid sirens, that they even would have message board for it!
More like the late 70s or early 80s, at least for the ones I remember out in eastern Queens. They mounted them on lamp posts (i.e. 89th & Madison, Broome & Crosby, 47th & 1st, Broad & Nassau), telephone poles, on top of schools, firehouses (every firehouse had one), and elevated stations. The Culver line had at least three I remember seeing.
wayne
When I was in school one of these sirens went off at noon every day.
Duck and cover...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Strange indeed! It looks like some old radio antenna or something.
With all kinds of politicos getting ink by objecting to the V train and a budget crisis underway, I think its time to give the people what they "want." Eliminate the "V" train and put the service back the way it was. Extend the Q to 21st street via the switch at Lexington to provide service to Roosevelt Island.
Then make Queens politicians and "activists" beg, and make concessions in other areas, to put the V train back two or three years from now when the budget improves.
Should have done it with the B71 bus, too.
Why not extend the "Q" (for Queens) all the way to 71-Continental whenever there is no "G" service?
I wish that could be done, also heard of ideas (not from the MTA but just from other railfans) to have it extended to 179 or something. But are there enough trains to allow the Q to be extended into Queens?
"With all kinds of politicos getting ink by objecting to the V train and a budget crisis underway, I think its time to give the people what they "want." Eliminate the "V" train and put the service back the way it was."
But that's not what people want, Larry. A small but vocal minority of New Yorkers want that. Most people are getting along with the service plan as is. Cancelling the V would be telling the vast majority of riders that you don't care what they want. This being a democracy, that's not something we should be doing.
"Extend the Q to 21st street via the switch at Lexington to provide service to Roosevelt Island."
That's not a bad idea, actually, but there's no room for it.
Man! They don't know what they want at all! They're all a bunch of dickhead's!Leave the V train alone,it's doing it's job! God damn,I'm getting more and more pissed off with every new V topic I see,LEAVE THE DAMN TRAIN ALONE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
Excuse me, but all that anger is very negative, and not cool. You really shouldn't get so angry, just because someone says things you don't agree with. Another thing- have some respect, all that "Goddamn" and calling people "dickheads" and screaming (you know what I mean, using CAPITAL LETTERS to say something) is really rude. I'm only saying this to you because whether you realize it or not, people really don't appreciate that behavior. You may not even care what people think, for all I know, but I will tell you that if you and I were in person and having a discussion and you acted like that, I would no longer consider you the kind of person I'd want to associate with.
V Train, be tame... :)
Despite your rash comments, I agree with your stance on the V. It does a hell of a better job than people thought. Besides, along the Queens Blvd. line, more people are heading to Manhattan, aren't they?
Ok V train calm down, a new year is coming and you must STOP these angry outbursts. While you shouldn't call other posters "dickheads", I agree with you that the V HAS done its job and if people don't like it tough.
Sure the V line has done it's job, not as good a job as the truncated G line, which has more riders than the V during rush hour. All the V line did was take 10 people off each car on the average E train.
Its 10 more people than before though. Anyway, they could get the G back on QB all times if they extend the R back to 179 St on weekdays and possibly bring back the Hillside express.
"All the V line did was take 10 people off each car on the average E train. "
From what I've read and seen (prior to moving to KC) that number was more like 20-25 people off each E train. And that number gets bigger with time.
"From what I've read and seen (prior to moving to KC) that number was more like 20-25 people off each E train."
I think even 20-25 is an understatement, on average.
In April 2002, V trains were half full. Say 1000 people per train.
There are 10 V trains per hour and 15 Es and 15 Fs.
So each E or F train had 333 fewer people, even back in April.
So that's 33 per car for each train. Maybe more off the F than the E, but still, 33 per car on average, not 10 or 20.
Thank you for that correction.
I have actually seen V trains with standing room only. I don't know the % of the time that this happens.
"From what I've read and seen (prior to moving to KC) that number was more like 20-25 people off each E train. And that number gets bigger with time. "
The best idea of taking passengers off the E line, is building a third track along Jamaica Avenue into Broadway Eastern Parkway. And taking some of those timers off the J line.
N Broadway Line
The only timers the J really has is the Willy-B, Myrtle Av and the S-curves at Marcy Av & approaching Crescent St & Cpress Hills. I agree the 3rd track inculding the flyover should be completed and then that would further reduce crowding on the E. Also, people would be happy with a alternative to lower Manhattan.
That and extend the J lion to Rosedale. Jamaica Center would be hard pressed to provide a terminal for express and local service.
avid
The RPA has actually pushed the Jamaica line upgrade for those heading to Lower Manhattan. A third track, extended over Jamaica Avenue and thus avoiding the Crescent Street curve, and a flyover at Myrtle Avenue, would allow a super express -- Jamaica, Broadway Junction, Marcy, onto Manhattan. It would run 12 trains per hour or more in the peak direction, and with the transfer at Broadway Junction for Woodhaven, Richmond Hill, and Cypress Hills, would help a lot of people in the city.
I can't imagine Nassau and Suffolk residents going down all those stairs, waiting up to five minutes, and then getting on a subway for a 25 minute ride on a crowded, racially and economically mixed train, however. Perhaps if the super express terminated up on the LIRR platforms, but not otherwise.
Still, as part of a comprehensive program for Queens, it would make sense. You still need to get around all those "community" activists, like the ones fighting against the V.
"I can't imagine Nassau and Suffolk residents going down all those stairs, waiting up to five minutes, and then getting on a subway for a 25 minute ride on a crowded, racially and economically mixed train, however. Perhaps if the super express terminated up on the LIRR platforms, but not otherwise."
All NY subway lines are racially and economically mixed. And Long Island Bus carries a generally lower socio-economic crowd anyway, demographically.
However, it makes more sense to just stay on the LIRR - after all, getting to lower Manhattan from Penn is much faster than getting off the LIRR at Jamaica and taking the J/Z skip-stop.
I support a third-track option. I think it would attract ridership from many of the outer Queens areas, especially if the TA can show that you would get to work at least 10-15 minutes sooner than by taking the E or F train.
Not so much for Suffolk or Nassau riders, but for Queens and extreme western Nassau residents using bus service to subways. A cheaper ride than the LIRR and bus.
avid
Yes, true.
The RPA has actually pushed the Jamaica line upgrade for those heading to Lower Manhattan. A third track, extended over Jamaica Avenue and thus avoiding the Crescent Street curve, and a flyover at Myrtle Avenue, would allow a super express -- Jamaica, Broadway Junction, Marcy, onto Manhattan.
I like that idea!
A few questions:
What is RPA?
Is this a current plan or a plan from the past?
I remember about 5 years ago a push for a third track, but some of the intermediate neighborhoods, like Woodhaven sort of complained.
I like the Myrtle flyover. I assume that means that after Kosciousko the express track would rise, be double-decked over the current express track at Myrtle station, while going through the area where the former Broadway Station above used to be, and then lower itself, back down by Flushing Station. This would avoid the at grade crossing of the M for the express, and render Myrtle a local only station. The Jamaica express would no longer be able to use the center track at the Myrtle Station. In fact it would seem that it would be severed from the Jamaica Line completely, at least operationally. The M would able to terminate there on it's shuttle runs. There would be no reason for the J to ever enter the current center track at Myrtle.
The RPA is the Regional Plan Association, based in Manhattan.
Check them out at: http://www.rpa.org/
Yes we Long Islanders are a most impatient and intolerant lot, aren't we! Try getting them out of their damn cars and onto ANY form of public transportation. The most many tolerate is the LIRR, and forget about taking it to Brooklyn!
wayne
(Yes we Long Islanders are a most impatient and intolerant lot, aren't we! Try getting them out of their damn cars and onto ANY form of public transportation. The most many tolerate is the LIRR, and forget about taking it to Brooklyn!)
Actually, I see the point about the transfer in Brooklyn. Compare it with the PATH transfer from NJT at both Newark and Hoboken. NJT riders board an empty train. LIRR riders board a train that is already packed with people from Brooklyn. MetroNorth riders to GCT have the same problem. So unlike some, if you are paying a premimum fare I could see the reason why you'd want an easy and comfortable transfer. Moreover, the subway's ride time is highly variable based on the interaction off all those people already on it. You have to leave extra time or risk arriving late at work or, worse, missing your train.
As for the race and class element, not everyone shares it. But plenty of people buy a Lexus rather than a similar Camry, to separate themselves from the great unwashed. Heck, there are people right here in Brooklyn who would never consider riding the subway at all.
So while some Nassau and Suffolk LIRR riders would use a "Super J," most would not. They would, however, probably use a dedicated ferry right at the railhead, timed to meet the train, to get to Lower Manhattan.
So while some Nassau and Suffolk LIRR riders would use a "Super J," most would not. They would, however, probably use a dedicated ferry right at the railhead, timed to meet the train, to get to Lower Manhattan.
I don't think the issue of the express J tracks really has to do withe the LIRR riders as much as it would benefit people in Queens who transfer to the subway at Jamaica.
I don't feel it has to do with class, or anything like that. If I am on the LIRR, and bound for Manhattan, why would I get off at Jamaica and then take the J or new J express? Wouldn't it make more sense to ride to Penn, and then take the subway? It's not that I don't want to ride the J, it's that it is more time wise to take the LIRR right to Penn.
Correct. I envision Jamaica as a transportation hub. Using my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway as a model, several lines come together here and then make an express run to manhattan. There are several venues for doing this.
1) An improved (J) Jamaica Avenue Line is one possibility.
2) A new express on Myrtle Avenue is another possibility.
3) and if my plan to run the LIRR to WTC via the Montauk ROW and a new tunnel leading into the area via Avenue C would bear fruit, then the LIRR Atlantic line becomes surplus, and could well serve as this express route. In this case, there is no way for all of this traffic to fit into existing subway tunnels, but it is possible to divert existing traffic onto the new routing, perhaps all (5) trains might go up there instead of out onto Eastern Parkway. The people on Eastern Parkway might not be too pleased, but I was making this as a suggestion. If such a project would become more serious, then would be the time to pay more serious attention to it.
Elias
The RPA has actually pushed the Jamaica line upgrade for those heading to Lower Manhattan ... I can't imagine Nassau and Suffolk residents going down all those stairs, waiting up to five minutes, and then getting on a subway for a 25 minute ride on a crowded, racially and economically mixed train, however. Perhaps if the super express terminated up on the LIRR platforms, but not otherwise.
Maybe some Nassau and Suffolk residents would be concerned about the racial and economic mixture on the Jamaica line, but most wouldn't. It's not as if LIRR trains are restricted to high-income whites.
Maybe some Nassau and Suffolk residents would be concerned about the racial and economic mixture on the Jamaica line, but most wouldn't. It's not as if LIRR trains are restricted to high-income whites.
Far from it.
The community I live in has two extreme spectrums. The further south towards the water you go, the more affluent it becomes, almost Hamptons-like. As you go north it is a more rundown, poorer area. I kind of live in the middle. It's a classic wrong or right side of the tracks scenario. Actually, in the late 90's they wanted to close the LIRR station. It is actually the poorer area that saved the station stop, as you had a strong drive from that community to keep it open, as for many of the poorer people, it was their only access to the city. And luckily the LIRR decided to renovate it instead. I don't think the station would still be there if not for the strong opposition to the closing from the poorer area. So the LIRR is far from only serving rich commuters. Many different people use the LIRR.
I feel what makes the New York City subway system interesting (beyond the structural aspects of it) is it's diversity of people. It's a reason to ride the subway, not refrain from it.
"I feel what makes the New York City subway system interesting (beyond the structural aspects of it) is it's diversity of people. It's a reason to ride the subway, not refrain from it."
YES!
The community I live in has two extreme spectrums. The further south towards the water you go, the more affluent it becomes, almost Hamptons-like. As you go north it is a more rundown, poorer area. I kind of live in the middle. It's a classic wrong or right side of the tracks scenario. Actually, in the late 90's they wanted to close the LIRR station. It is actually the poorer area that saved the station stop, as you had a strong drive from that community to keep it open, as for many of the poorer people, it was their only access to the city. And luckily the LIRR decided to renovate it instead. I don't think the station would still be there if not for the strong opposition to the closing from the poorer area. So the LIRR is far from only serving rich commuters. Many different people use the LIRR.
Even if I didn't already know from some of your past postings, I immediately would've recognized Bellport. Just unbelieveable, the income divide in that community.
I would imagine that the more affluent people from southern Bellport drive to Ronkonkoma to get the LIRR.
LOL, yeah, that's Bellport. Ironically, many of the "affluent" people that own homes in the expensive part of Bellport, actually live in Manhattan, and just come out on the weekends, and in the summer.
As for the station, using it is a bit inconvenient (though definitely better than your scenario at Medford Station), most of the trains end in Patchogue, and for the ones that go through to Speonk or Montauk, only about half stop at Bellport.
I usually use Patchogue, but sometimes go to Ronkonkoma. If I need to go to Manhattan early on a Saturday or Sunday (and the trains at both Ronkonkoma or Patchogue don't fit my schedule), I either drive in (or if I feel parking will be a problem in the city), or drive to one of the Babylon Branch stations where on the weekends it's easy to park, and service frequent.
As for the station, using it is a bit inconvenient (though definitely better than your scenario at Medford Station), most of the trains end in Patchogue, and for the ones that go through to Speonk or Montauk, only about half stop at Bellport.
As far as I know, only the Speonk trains stop at Bellport, the ones going to Montauk bypass it. Have to check a schedule to be sure.
Medford, that's another story entirely, there's basically just one useful train per day. I still think adding another trainset to the Greenport line, running as far as Yaphank or Riverhead, would be an excellent idea and would take pressure off overcrowded Ronkonkoma.
Yes, the Jamaica line could sure use a upgrade and while a flyover at Myrtle Av sounds nice, I would leave it the way it is until Broadway Junction. They should think about trying to eliminate the S curve at Cypress Hills as well & maybe convert Woodhaven Blvd into a express stop. As for the flyover, I think after it starts over Alabama Av it should make a left turn and run over Jamaica Av then lowers to merge with the extra room at Cypress Hills to avoid the S curve, when the line turns onto Jamaica Av from Fulton St [like the plan proposes]. If it ever happens, I would favor riding that to Jamaica Center over the E [of course I'll still ride the E at times] and a excellent railfanning opportunity would be created :-).
Didn't the MTA devise such a rerouting/relocation plan not to long ago? If anyone knows,what ever became of it?
Agreed!
"Sure the V line has done it's job, not as good a job as the truncated G line, which has more riders than the V during rush hour. All the V line did was take 10 people off each car on the average E train."
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!! The G line was never a favor for Queens Blvd riders.. They only took it because they wanted to get to an E or F line.
Also, during rush hours, I have ridden the G line towards Brooklyn and many times people often waiting at the local stations wouldn't get on. They were individuals waiting for the R who didn't want to endure a crowded ride on the E and F lines.
N Broadway Line
I'm not stoping my angry outburst's untill I no longer see another post from someone saying that the V should be eliminated or anything similar.It's beyond ridiculous already! Positive post's,POSITIVE! That's what I want to see. Positive post's about the V not one like the poster of this one did.Cause if anyone likes it or not,the V will be around for many many years,whether it be extended beyond 2Av or not,it will be around for several decade's and I dare anyone here to say otherwise cause they will be so dead wrong.
So will my Q Brighton Express (maybe a change of lettering may be necessary in 2004, but at least I will have a fast express while you have a slow local that is primarly responsible for a GT 3 MPH speed limit on the Manhattan Bound E line, just before it enters Queens Plaza. If your V train has the line up to cross over once it leaves QP, then riders behind the E train suffer.)
That's right, the Brighton [and maybe the Sea Beach] definitely won't have to suffer with making local stops (I'm not dogging the V but this is reality) in more than 1 borough and our Brighton line [and maybe the Sea Beach] won't be going through the rathole come 2004 :-). I don't think any letter change is necessary, I say the diamond Q bullet sticks after 2004 BUT should any weekend Brighton express ever occur, the circle will hang on.
Oh Lord, will you PLEASE swallow a handful of prozac.
Please,
ANDEE
Sorry,don't own any and I would never do such a thing anyway so FORGET IT! BUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You are such A Jerk, ALLmost as big a jerk as sallam.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now now ... don't make me get Nurse Ratchet ... :)
OOOOHHH... bring her on.
Peace,
ANDEE
Relax Andee, calm down we all know how she is already so don't stress yourself & by saying stuff like that you're only adding fuel to the fire. And BTW, leave Salaam out of this he had nothing to do with this.
Agreed.
Peace,
ANDEE
DESTROY THE V TRAIN AND V TRAIN B47 BUS! AHAHAHAH..AHAHAHA..AHAHAHAHA
Just Kidding!. I like the V Train. I hope the MTA keep the V for good.
What does your handle mean!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you mean by the U and X!!!!!!
Probably some fantasy layout he made up.
Neeeoooope.
so... What does it mean???
Remember the Q Train G.O. back in the summer where
Q Runs on the N and W between Canal and Stillwell
I just named my handle like that "Express M Runs on the U and X"
"Express M" came from the WillyB Rebah brochure. M is my first intial as Michael and my favorite subway line. Don't u dare dist my M. "U" and X" is what I referred as U and X subway line
Okay! Can you take this "Express M replaces R30 24 Hours and 7 Day a week"
What is with you lady? Who pulled your chain? Either your the unhappiest woman alive, or, well never mind. Try chilling out.
Everybody knows eliminating the V is a stupid idea.. So the best thing to do is ignore them.. like a grown adult would do.
N Bwy
I've ignored too many things in my life so now,at least for me,the time for ignoring things is over.Time for me to watch thing's happen and take action.
"I've ignored too many things in my life so now,at least for me,the time for ignoring things is over.Time for me to watch thing's happen and take action. "
That's a good philosophy. Watch, observe, think, review the options that you have and what each might result in, and then take action.
That's actually something that's very true.I've ignored thing's that other's have done to me cause they were annoying or were to tease me and only succeeded in pissing me off,or just other random things that didn't interest me at all. My life....I live my life by a song called "It Doesn't Matter" by Tony Harnell.The word's in that song is what motivate's me and it will do that for as long as I live.
(While you shouldn't call other posters "dickheads", I agree with you that the V HAS done its job and if people don't like it tough. )
Actually, I didn't think he was calling me a dickhead. I think he was calling all those people whining about the V dickheads. And frankly, I agree with that.
Remember Larry, V train is a she so its Ms "V Train B47 Bus"! I know she was calling people who doesn't agree with the V dickheads.
oddly, i agree. snip the v, do NOT reinstate the G to queens blvd. full time, and watch as the idiot brigade comes crying a few months later.
better yet, send the E local, the f via 63rd, and the r as is. that'll really rattle their cage.
Your suggestion (in jest but flavored with real irritation, I realize) would be appropriate revenge on the complainers.
Still, I hope no politicians read this board. They might get some pretty unsavory ideas that they didn't think up on their own.
Why is the R called the R? In the 60s, the BMT got letters to go along with the IND practice.
Its partner Q, which also got called upon early in combinations like QB and QJ, likely stands for "Queens/Brooklyn" and "Queens/Jamaica". R was originally used in the combination RR, because it has always been a local line. Was that supposed to stand for 'railroad'? All subways are railroads...
T and TT were also used early on, but were dropped...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Remember the NX, the "Super Sea Beach Express"? What was the X designator, if all other expresses had only one letter? If the lettered routes actually stood for the lines they ran on, or origin/destination points, then I thought the "R" should stand for Rockaway!:-)
X = express maybe?
I wouldn't know, but it's an educated guess (I wasn't even born yet when the NX service began and ended).
But I do wonder how they came up with the double-letter combo QJ.
Q = Brighton Line
J = Jamaica Line
QJ = Brighton/Jamaica or Jamaica/Brighton
How did they get "MJ" then? Wasn't that the designation of the Myrtle El (although never really made it to the trains)?
Or was the MJ, the Metro to Chambers run which would make more sense(I don't feel like pulling out my maps right now).
MJ - Myrtle / Jamaica. Probably because it ran over part of the Myrtle and Jamaica lines.
RJ - a combination of the RR and _J lines, for 4th Avenue and Jamaica.
JJ - Jamaica local
QJ - Queens / Jamaica
I think the RR was used because it was just the next letter available and it was doubled because at that time double letters meant locals. Or maybe it was meant to mean AstoRia.
--Mark
Possibly but I think it may have been Myrtle/Jay in reference to the fact that it ran on the Myrtle Av El to Jay Street. It could also have been Metropolitan/Jay.
MJ was for Myrtle-Jay (Street), QJ was for (Q) Brighton- (J) Jamaica. NX was for the Broadway-Sea Beach Super-Express although I don't belive that the words "Super-Express" ever appeared on any TA literature describing the service. It was primarily to differentiate it from the regular N Broadway-Slow Beach Express. (Now known as the 86 Street and back Line.)\
Larry, RedbirdR33
Slow-Beach Express, uh? Don;t be a smartass Larry. It doesn't become you.
another one for Slow Beach Local
Be satisfied with the fact that it hasn't yet become the Slow Beach Shuffle.
Just what we need onboard, another smart ass. I owe you one Q, and let me tell you, I have a long memory. Your time is coming.
As long as NYCT sees fit, not that I was hoping for, it will be just THAT: The SLOw-BEACH TRAIN.
Watch out that it doesn't become a shuttle on nights and weekends.
It already is, between Pacific St and 86th Street. Now if they cut back to 59th Street, then we will get Fred p----- off again.
Actually, you're right, it sort of is a shuttle. I was thinking though that it would be cut back to 36th or even 59th.
It never ceases to amaze me how the Sea Beach always gets insulted.
You go away for awhile, and everyone is still picking on poor old Fred.
Just wait until they open both sides of the bridge..............
Right on Sea Beach man. Good to hear from you again. While you were away some real Sea Beach fans have come out of their hiding places and are starting to stick up for our line. It is a sight to behold. At the same time some new Brighton Boys have come on to give that line a breath of fresh air, a great improvement from the dull and boring old time Brighton aficianados.
Haha, thats right Fred, I'm one of those boys repping my Brighton line :-)! While the Brighton is my line, I will say this again & again that the Sea Beach has definitely lost respect & some popularity once it stared running through the rathole [no wonder the R gets joked on so much, its bad enough its an all local service and doesn't see the outdoors at ALL]. By 2004, our trains may run side by side again we'll just wait & see.
never it will be lucky(Sea Beach) to run 24/7 into Manhatten
Oh it's ManhattAn, you boob.
Flatbush41, you are a very fast learner and you hit the nail right on the head. The fact that the Sea Beach has to run along side the damn R train anymore than on 4th Avenue is bad enough, but to have to subject my train to that Montague pest hole is insult upon injury. Believe it or not there was a time when I could take the R (then the #2BMT 4th Avenue Local from Queens Plaza near where I lived, hold my nose for five stops and disembark on 42nd Street and Times Square where I could have my choice of the Brighton Express, the West End or the Sea Beach. That was pure joy. What the hell do the new breed of riders have to look forward to now? Peeking into the Montague to see if a rodent happens along the way. And stop, stop, stop, stop. A Local for crying out loud. It's enough to drive me to the cupboard to take a drink.
"Peeking into the Montague to see if a rodent happens along the way."
Fred, what is your obsession against rodents? I raised very fine hamsters back in the 70's, and they were clean and very tame.
BTW, just to play the "devil's advocate", there are probably rodents in the tunnel leading to the Manhattan Bridge from DeKalb Avenue. So, either way, if anyone "peeks" into either location, they're bound to see furry, incisor-toothed creatures.
He won't have to put up with rodents in either of those places when the Slow Beach is made into a shuttle. I'm sure there are enough inhabitants in the approach from Fort Hamilton Pkway to 59th St.
Believe me Marty you won't see as many of them, though. The Montague is the grand daddy of them all when it comes to rats. BTW, we also raised some rodents. We had a rabbit called Pooky, mice called sugar and spice and ginger, hamsters called bobby, steve and turnup, and we have two mice today, Schuyler and Sammy. Yes I do love rodents, but not those filthy kind that get in the way of my Sea Beach. But their ability to survive under the harshest conditions tell me those little bastards are one tough breed. Oh, yes, we even had guinea pigs back in the 70's. We also have four dogs. We like four legged creatures.
Actually, rabbits are not rodents, but a separate family called Lagomorph. I imagine that would include the coneys the "island" was named after, to keep this somewhat on topic.
Dull and boring? Speak for yourself, Fred. You've been singing the same tune for the longest time.
Cmon guys, this is all in good fun.
The fastest way to Manhattan from Coney Island on a one seat ride on any of the old BMT lines was the Sea Beach when it ran express via 4th Avenue and the Manny B. And if it was the summer and you needed to get to Coney Island fast, it was the Sea Beach because they ran them express from 59th down to Coney Island.
My grandmother lived in Coney Island and that was the fastest way to commute to and from work in the 1930's.
Can't say that about the Brighton, Culver, or West End.
Thanks Sea Beach lover, at least there's someone on board who knows what the hell he is talking about concerning the value of our train. When we went anywhere we took the Sea Beach, and not only because I would make a scene with my parents if they didn't, but they themselves said it was the fastest way to get to New Utrecht, Avenue U and Coney Island, our three stop off places in the late 40's and early 50's. Restore our train to its previous route and make it an express and it will thatagain.
What you forgot to mention was that these were Nassau-Franklin specials, that ran via Sea Beach to Coney Island, continued from there as Brighton Expresses via the old Brighton Line to Franklin Av. and Fulton St. This service ran until 1952. Then the Sea Beach part was discontinued, with only the Brighton-Franklin part hunkering on until 1958. The Nassau-Franklin Specials' rolling stock was usually BMT Standards, which were not Fred's favorite train, as we all well know.
I would be happy for you guys should all of that return to your line to rid of the years of misery on the N but unfortunately you don't got a one seat express now, ONLY the Brighton line still has regular express service out of the 4 lines. Not to bring other lines down and sound obnoxious but we got 24/7 bridge express service via Broadway.
Only because you on are on our side of the bridge!
Gee - 35 years ago, Brighton Broadway Express service was reduced to about 6 trains during rush hour - I believe this was called the QB. And it was local in Brooklyn.
The Brighton Express became the D, via 6th Avenue, and hopefully when they open up both sides of the bridge, it'll become that again.
My guess is that it'll be the opposite. 6th Ave D service being the Brighton local and the Bway Q the express. The old routing would be easier on D crews, given that the CI/205th St. run can be one long bitch of a ride, and the Q express is a ridiculously short run.
So make the D express and the Q local in Brooklyn. But the TA doesn't make things easy, do they?
Thats a no brainer :0)! Seriously, some D's was express in Brooklyn along with the Q until the bridge project was finished in 1988, when the D became the full time local. That wouldn't be such a bad idea to flip the D and Q patterns via Brighton since the D is the longer line.
Before 1986, the D was the express rush hours and middays while the QB and M were the locals. When the M didn't run to Southern Brooklyn, the D was a local.
In 1986, the M was moved off, and the D/Q became an all day skip-stop local pair.
In 1988, express service was restored with the Q an express and the D a full time local.
All expresses since 1968 have ended at Brighton Beach and all locals 1968-2002 have ended at Stillwell. During the skip-stop period, the D was full time to Stillwell, and the Q ended at Brighton.
Wait a minute, around 1985-1986 [just before the shift of the M and the skip stop service] the D, M AND Q ran to Coney Island but did all D's run to Brighton Beach via express when the M and Q ran? What was the service pattern on weekdays during that time? On weekends of course I know it was only the D.
The D ended at Brighton Beach when it ran express, it ran to Coney Island when it ran local.
Thanks for the help Pigs.
The shif of the M took place in April, 1986, before that, the D ran express to/from Brighton Beach while the M ran local to CI (plus 1 hour each way on the Q line during peak rush hour.) After 9:30 weekdays and all weekend, the D ran local to CI.
Thanks for showing me that Kool-D.
Actually, making things easier is the main reason to route the D local and Q express. This way, passangers know that the D will always take them to a local station no matter what time/day it is.
Unless they're going to the Bronx.
Running the Q full-time local in Brooklyn and the B full-time local in the Bronx would cover both.
Who's we?
N BWY
For me SEA BEACH... it's the Broadway vs 6th Avenue... What ever happen after Canal Street is your concern.
N Bwy Line
For me SEA BEACH... it's the Broadway vs 6th Avenue... What ever happen after Canal Street is your concern.
N Bwy Line
Is there a chance that MJ could have stood for Metropolitian av and Jay st. The myrtle av line west of Broadway never had a identification till almost the end so it seems possible that it was set up to the two terminal stations on the line . any thoughts?
john
Nope, Myrtle-Jay. I see that it had no rute letter until the near end but its what I just mentioned.
Is there a chance that MJ could have stood for Metropolitian av and Jay st. The myrtle av line west of Broadway never had a identification till almost the end so it seems possible that it was set up to the two terminal stations on the line . any thoughts?
john
Is there a chance that MJ could have stood for Metropolitian av and Jay st. The myrtle av line west of Broadway never had a identification till almost the end so it seems possible that it was set up to the two terminal stations on the line . any thoughts?
john
Is there a chance that MJ could have stood for Metropolitian av and Jay st. The myrtle av line west of Broadway never had a identification till almost the end so it seems possible that it was set up to the two terminal stations on the line . any thoughts?
john
I think that you're all trying to read too much into the letters. The TA just wanted to extend the existing IND letter system beyond H to include the BMT lines (so they wouldn't overlap with the numbers which it had assinged to the IRT lines following WW II). I think that they started with the Eastern division because the original BMT numbers had started with the Southern division (kind of like how the US government started numbering the Interstates from the Southwest because the old US route numbers started in the Northeast). I believe that "J" for Jamaica and "M" for Myrtle Ave. were more than just coincidences, but they did fit into the scheme, like "C" for Concourse. The other letters make no more sense that does "G" for crosstown.
I believe the original plan was to use single letters for expresses and double letters for locals (a la IND). I and O were skipped, probably because they look too much like "one" and "zero". "S" was reserved for Specials or Shuttles (SS), and X for Extra or "Super-Express" services. The letter assignments they came up with in the 1950s were:
J - Jamaica
K - Broadway/Brooklyn
L - 14th St.
M - Myrtle Ave.
N - Sea Beach
P - Culver
Q - Brighton
R - 4th Ave.
T - West End
The first cars to have the new route signs were the R 27s in late 1960. To differentiate between the two Brighton local services (via Bridge and via Tunnel), they used QB and QT rather than QQ. Also, P for Culver never appeared as by 1960 it was just a shuttle (SS).
QJ, RJ, and MJ were letter combinations invented for the opening of the Chrystie St connector in 1967. QJ and RJ were combinations of previous lines (through routing of the Jamaica line with the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines), and MJ was invented to distinguish the Myrtle Ave. El trains to Jay St (hence the "J") from MM locals via Williamsburg bridge (originally planned to use the connector to the 6th Ave. line).
-- Ed Sachs
You've got it basically right, and obviously, since J and M were coming up on the list, and J and M were the initials of line names, then those fell into place. (The track survey chain designations also match on those two, as well as Concourse, but not on most other lines) Also the Q as well, as in 1960, all Brighton trains except for the night and Sunday local via bridge went to Queens (The Q exp. to Astoria, and the QT to Continental). A year later, they were changed around, with the express cut back and the QB extended to Astoria. But other lines were not necessarilty based on line or terminal names.
I have speculated that P would have been Culver, (local via tunnel may have been something like "PT") and that the letters had to have been first conceived in the 50's before the signs were printed. Did you get this from an actual plan, or did you just hear the idea here? If you go far back enough in the 50's, then you have to take into consideration the Fulton and Lexington Av. els too.
I wondered if the newly created NYCTA devised the letters when it came into power, and didn't use them right away on trains.
By the time of Chrystie St, the thinking had changed, and more sloppy letter pairs were conceived that did not follow the old ways, as new lines ran in places in a combined BMT-IND that did not exist before.
That would explain NX ("X" now meaning "express" even though it makes it a double letter), EE on Bway, rather than following the E exp, MM on 6th Av. likewise, QJ, RJ, and MJ. If Lexington was still around, I could see it being labeled "LJ" (since it ran to Jay as well)
I have recently noted that in the number scheme, southern div. got the lower and eastern div. got the higher, but in the letters, it was the other way around. When the southern div. changed over first, the higher eastern div. numbers practically picked up where the IRT left off for a unified system wide number system for a few years!
I have noticed that
Q=1
R=2
T=3
but then
N=4
P=5?
So it seems there may have been some sort of order, at least in the south, but it was fragmented and jumps around.
I never saw an definitive documentation that P was supposed to be Culver, but I can't fathom any other reason why they skipped this letter. My guess is that the letter scheme was developed in the mid 1950s, by which time the Lexington Ave. El was gone, and the Fulton St. El was either gone or soon to be, so no letters were provided for these. The Culver-Nassau service operated until 1959, so it makes sense that a letter was assigned to it.
Prior to Chrystie St., the only mis-matched double letters were QB and QT, probably because of the split personality of the Brighton local (I guess they didn't want to do the different colored lights on the head end signs as they did on the Triplexes).
-- Ed Sachs
Given the (public) squeamishness of the 1950s, 'P' might well have been avoided because it was the first letter of 'micturition' and 'urination.' In addition, a double-letter local would have sounded like a child discussing the topic.
(Sort of like the old comment about shopping at a store owned by the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company--"I'm going to the A & P," to which a common response was, "In public?")
Wasn't 'P' proposed for a special service from Jamaica when a strike on the LIRR was threatened a few years ago? (That might have been called "P-Strikebreaker.")
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Wasn't 'P' proposed for a special service from Jamaica when a strike on the LIRR was threatened a few years ago? (That might have been called "P-Strikebreaker.")
Yes P was to be used when the LIRR threatened strike a few years back. The P was to run from Jamaica Center to the 8th Avenue Line (via Jamaica Line, Chrystie Street, West 4th). I forgot where it was to terminate).
I think it was also planned when Amtrak threatened strike once also, and Penn Station would have been closed. I believe the train was to run the same as above, as a super express on the Jamaica El, with stops at Jamaica Center, Sutphin, 121st Street, Broadway Junction (I think), and then on to Chyrstie, etc. At Sutphin it would have picked up the LIRR electric train riders, and the diesels were to run to LOng Island City, with a stop at Richmond Hill (for riders to transfer to the "P" train at 121st Street), at Long Island City for the 7. Riders were encouraged to use the Richmond Hill/121st Street-Jamaica El transfer over the 7, which was going to be running at capacity passenger loads.
Neither ever panned out, but I was going to ride to Jamaica just to ride the P. Think of what an important station Richmond Hill would have been for a few days!
I don't think such a train would have run if the LIRR would have struck, since how would LIRR passengers get to Jamaica in the first place? It was planned for an Amtrak strike only.
If Amtrak ever does strike, could Richmond Hill be reopened as a station? I don't know what condition it's in. Trains still pass through it, of course, but they haven't stopped for a few years.
It's not in that bad of shape, for a station that had limited use and maintenence even when it was in use. This photo was taken near the end of service (which was I think 1998), and it really wasn't "that bad". It was only station in the group on the Montauk Branch that even resembled a real station. I think the station is still useable if they needed to be, at least for a temporary station anyway. The last time I was there was about early 2001, and it didn't seem to much worse than when it was "open".
(Sort of like the old comment about shopping at a store owned by the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company--"I'm going to the A & P," to which a common response was, "In public?")
Sounds as bad as the supposed conversation at the junction of the Weston, Clevedon and Portishead with the Great Western Railway.
Lady: "Portah, how can I get to Walton-in-Gordano?"
Porter: "Over the bridge to the WC & P."
She, supposedly, reported him.
Thank you for clarifying. :)
Here is another teaser, ever wonder how the IND came up with the GG? It stood for Green, the common color on all the stations on the Crosstown Line, and the same color on the G line display.
Not true. G fit in perfectly with the west-east IND designation scheme.
Washington Heights/Inwood: A, B
Concourse: C, D
Queens Boulevard: E, F, G
Maybe the stations were green because it was the GG. But there was a pattern for the coloration too.
Green seems to have been for local only lines (including 6th Av. below 34th). Even in the 1967 route colors, green was always associated with local routes!
The #1 and EE lines were orange, while the #6 was yellow, and the AA was burgandy.
I didn't mean all locals were green. Just that where green was used, it was for locals. Anyway, the EE couldn't be grren because the RR was, and the AA couldn't because the CC wa. I don't know why they IRT didn't et any green lines. If the 6 had been green, it too like the A, D and 2 would have carried over the old color.
Actually, the "AA" (along with the #4, the "F", and the "MJ" [map only]) was fuchsia. The 1968 and 1969 map the color pritned darker than the signs, and MUCH darker than the rollsigns.
wayne
The "G" Crosstown line, all local, uses the color it started off with in Brooklyn - that being the two-tone medium green found at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The two transfer stations (one planned, one actual - Broadway and Metropolitan-Grand) use nile green/black (like 71st Avenue), the north end's Hunter Green/black is just a variant, perhaps chosen because Queens Plaza is such a dark color, that shade of dark green would be on the same visual level.
wayne
I think "Q" is designated for the Brighton line. QB stands for Brighton line train via bridge, QT stands for Brighton line train via tunnel, and QJ stands for Brighton line train via Jamaica Line.
Chaohwa
To clarify some points raised by earlier posters:
When the IND began in 1932, single letters were expresses and double letters were expresses. Around 1961, when the R27/30s appeared, the BMT began seeing letters instead of numbers on its roll signs. The TA began station sign postings of BMT letter designations around 1964 for southern division lines. In Nov. 1967, when the Chrystie Street connection and wholesale B division route changes occurred, all BMT routes became officially all letter.
The IND lines were originally A through GG (later HH for Court St. and Rockaway); the first IND route, along 8th Ave, opened in 1932 and thus was given the A (and AA for local) designation. The BMT simply picked up with letters J through T later on. The single/double style was still used on the BMT originally, so any route with at least some express running was single letter. There was no mnemonic or other reasoning except alphabetical listings for the assignment of BMT letters, so the Sea Beach became N, Brighton became Q, the 4th Ave. became RR, and West End T. O was skipped since it would be confused with a numeral, and S was always used for the "Special" designations. And of course with the 1967 marriage or the BMT and IND divisions, IND letters (B and D)began appearing on BMT routes.
Over the years the single letter express became somewhat muted as many single letter lines had long stretches of local running, such as the D from 59th St. to Coney Island, or the E from Queens Plaza to Chambers St. In 1987 the TA officially scratched all double letter trains and went to single, unique letters entirely, so the RR became the R and the LL (Carnarsie) became the L, etc.
It probably does make sense to use letters for the B division trains to easily distinguish them from the IRT numbers, but in retrospect would have probably been better to use numbers for the B division as well - maybe beginning with 20 to avoid confusion with the IRT.
R may have been the next letter that they wanted to use. And it was RR because it was a local.
By your logic Kevin then the West End should have been the W (like it is now) / WW instead of the T / TT.
What I wonder was why they didn't have a single "R" for the Nassau-95th special, which for most of the time was express (I think toward the end it became local), as well as bridge peak direction. That way they wouldn't have hed to share "M" or "S" with the Brighton specials
Its partner Q, which also got called upon early in combinations like QB and QJ, likely stands for "Queens/Brooklyn" and "Queens/Jamaica".
Not even close. As Chao-Hwa has already said, Q was from Brighton. QB was via Bridge, QT was via Tunnel and QJ was via Jamaica.
There was also an RJ, Bay Ridge to Jamaica.
Why the letters were done as they were is a mystery. The letter don't stand for anything like the west-east order on the original IND, or the initials (M for Myrtle, J for Jamaica) in the East.
The letter don't stand for anything like the west-east order on the original IND, or the initials (M for Myrtle, J for Jamaica) in the East.
Excpet the N, which goes "N"owhere, the Sea Beach! :-)
You just really want to get Fred pissed.
You just really want to get Fred pissed.
Essentially, yes
Maybe you should change your handle to "Anti-Fred N", this only opens old wounds now. Get a life, I don't even go as low as that when I compare the Sea Beach to the Brighton Line.
I don't think so. Compared to the Brighton line, the Sea Beach line does go nowhere. It is the least used of all of the BMT lines in Southern Brooklyn. Why do you think it was rerouted to the tunnel? Why do you think it was the first one cut back from Coney Island and will be the last one restored to it?
They're just trying to make sure Fred's next ride on the Sea Beach is extra smooth. In contrast with the otherlines, the subway is cut back to give the track inspectors time to go over each new weld with a toothbrush and white gloves.
Fred deserves the best.
:0)
Thank you sir and may I extend to you my hand of friendship and wishes for a great 2003.
Likewise. May you live long and prosper.
Make sure he gets a nice clean set of 4400-series Slants for his next visit to the "N" train.
wayne
The Sea Beach, ever since the NX disappeared, wasn't the same but once it got moved from the bridge it has been treated as a second class line ever since. Look a WHOLE express track is basically ripped out deemed unusable [Fred, you should seriously look at the line's condition itself, not just the Montague rathole]. Look at the conditions of the stations, especially 8 Av with the graffiti filled closed mezzanine and the layers of peeling paint at some stations, no station is due for a renovation anytime soon and Stilwell on the F and Q will open about the same time as the N & its reconstruction started far BEFORE the other two lines.
and the layers of peeling paint at some stations
Forget peeling paint, you've got chunks of concrete missing in the deco.
Well at least you guys see what I have been griping about the past few years. I know all about the peeling paint and water damage and filth on the tracks of my Sea Beach. The way I look at it, though, is one thing at a time. Get it back on the bridge and out of the Montague rathole, get it back to Coney Island, and then, in desperation, get my buddy George W. to declare it a National Monument and get oodles of largess from the Feds to restore the line and make it the signature one of the whole subway system in New York. Quite a dreamer I am, don't you think? Either that or delusional.
If the 7 was named a Millenium Trail, I suppose it's possible...
George W or George Washington would never give a rats trush about the subway, or would ever ride it especially the Slow Bush Train
You mean the Weak, weary, worthless WALRUS?
Nothing is as slow, anywhere! Not even the "R"!
wayne
excuse me Rats Tush
I will give them this - the station houses have been nicely kept up. I think there's a groundwater/drainage problem that's irritating the concrete walls and making them powder and their paint peel. Did anybody think of putting pool paint up (after fixing the concrete)?
wayne
Sorry Fred, you lose here when it comes to monuments like your Sea Beach line. This is beacuse (and Brighton Bob, Bill "Newkirk", and Flatbush41 know this too.) in my Brighton Line at Newkirk Ave station, a plaque sits outside the control house that actually and historically depicts the groundbreaking and completion of the original BRT. ("THE DEPRESSION AND ELEVATION OF RR GRADE CROSSINGS"). But your Sea Beach has NOTHING MONUMENTAL about this, so Dubya Jr. will have to do the ribbon cutting declaring the Brighton Line as a National Historical Landmark.
Too bad, I can't take a picture and scan it to this site, I don't want your buddy Bob drooling over it. At least I appreciate things while I live in NYC and not 3,000 miles away.
Well you got me with that one. But as I said I am a good dreamer and somewhat delusional when it comes to my train. Well, back to the drawing board.
HA HA! I sure did. When you come back to NY, we can show you this plaque at my station.
Yup, that's true we DO have a historical plaque at Newkirk Av :-).
Come on that was uncalled for and you know Fred is gonna respond to that! The reason the n is stuck in Brooklyn on weekends is b/c some genius flipped the N & W lines.
That was NECESSARY. This way Coney Island does not lose direct from Manhattan service on weekends. Running the N to CI would be another solution, but the N is a slow local through the tunnel and such is less important to Coney Island than the W. And the N is a slow local through the tunnel because the Sea Beach is the line with the smallest ridership of all of the BMT South lines.
That was NECESSARY. This way Coney Island does not lose direct from Manhattan service on weekends. Running the N to CI would be another solution, but the N is a slow local through the tunnel and such is less important to Coney Island than the W.
On weekends and nights the W becomes the slow W running through the tunnel. So either way N or W it would be slow.
The W is just the unwanted bastard child of the B and deserves to be stuck in Brooklyn. Long live the N!
The W is the train that should be running express on weekdays. The current scheme is better than running the W to CI on weekdays and the N to CI on weekends.
From 36th to Stillwell, the Sea Beach takes less time than the West End. (It's also a more interesting ride, IMO. The West End bores me to death, despite the interesting neighborhoods.)
David: Can I believe that you actually said something positive about the Sea Beach? How can I show my appreciation? I have been gratified by the fact that more than a few have come on board and given me moral support concerning my train, but yours is the Big Cahoona. Welcome on board and help get the N back on the bridge.
Fred, the Sea Beach is without a doubt one of the most interesting lines, certainly in South Brooklyn anyway. It beats the West End hands down. In fact, I find the West End to be the most boring el in the system, dual contract monotony at it's worst. The only saving grace for the current West End Service, the W, is that it runs on Broadway (one of my favorites), and Astoria is a cool little el also. But when the B runs on the West End, it probably is just a step ahead of the R as a boring route (well the B right now is possibly worse than the R without the West End portion, so that is saying a lot!)
The Sea Beach's only real compitition in South Brooklyn is the Brighton, and well, I would put the Brighton in second place after the Sea Beach.
The Sea Beach In front of the Brighton. All the Sea Beach has once it gets out of the Tunnel, is pit. The most interesting part of the line was South of 86th St, and the old days when the Bay ridge of the NH/LIRR was a real railroad.
The brighton, has cut, embankement, el service, plus bothe Local and Express Service.
The West End goes thru some great neighborhoods, Bath Beach, Bensonhurst,
What have you had to drink or smoke last night?
What have you had to drink or smoke last night?
I did drink last night, but do not smoke (either regular or "funny" smokes).
Seriously though:
The West End goes thru some great neighborhoods, Bath Beach, Bensonhurst
Basically the same neighborhoods the Sea Beach does, except at a different angle. I have nothing against the neighborhoods the West End runs through. It's just a plain, uneventful el. I didn't say it was my least favorite route/line, just the least interesting el.
The Sea Beach In front of the Brighton. All the Sea Beach has once it gets out of the Tunnel, is pit. The most interesting part of the line was South of 86th St, and the old days when the Bay ridge of the NH/LIRR was a real railroad.
As for Sea Beach vs. Brighton, I don't know why I like the Sea Beach better, I just do. The Brighton is also a great line (I didn't say anything to knock it, other that saying it came in a close second in my book after the Sea Beach).
He rates the lines one, two just like I do. Stop complaining and raining on our Sea Beach parade. Since you have left Subtalk for a short hiatus there have been some new Sea Beachers who have come online. Fred's tenacles are beginning to reach out very far.
My ratings of the brooklyn lines
1. Brighton
2. Sea Beach
3. West end
4. Culver
>>"The brighton, has cut, embankement, el service, plus bothe Local and Express Service.
The West End goes thru some great neighborhoods, Bath Beach, Bensonhurst,"<<
I AGREE with you, Bob [the Brighton is my home line too] :-)! No disrespect to other lines but our Brighton line has a variety of el, cut, embankment & subway as you mentioned, a great view from the Manny-B no timers on the express, the trains are very clean and is one of the most consistent lines [Q & ] out there :-D.
Not to mention the extra bonus the Q seems to be offering according to that other thread.......
Why not throw the Dyre into the mix. It is in some ways a cross between the Brighton and Sea Beach. If the full second Av. line is ever built, it might be connected to one or the other or both!
GP38, you've just made a friend for life. We are true blood brothers.
The Sea Beach is a intersting line but if it had a NX replacement, more respect and renovated stations, it would be even better. However, I have to rep the Brighton line, its my home line, has a variety that probably no other line has which is different types of structures the trains runs on and I think its the best line out there.
Attaboy Goumba Tony. Long Live The N. Words to live by. My stars, where are all these Sea Beach allies of mine coming from? It has been a long wait but the N fans are coming out of the woodwork in droves.
Couldn't they just leave it as the N :-\. I guess it was done to make the W 'useful' on weekends instead of the shuttle it was for a year and provide a 1 seat ride to Stillwell but look what gets shortened, the N. And the way the Stillwell project is going, the N reconstruction started first but may finish at the same time or AFTER the F & Q platforms are completely rebuilt & also got no shuttle bus or direct alternative from 86 St to CI.
The N connects to the W at New Utrecht/62nd. The F and Q do not have the luxury of connecting to the W so far south.
Also there are no closed stops on the N.
The N at 86th Street is a few blocks from the F shuttle bus, and from the W in the other direction. Perhaps the shuttle bus should be extended to the N.
Without consulting any statistics, I'd have to concede that the Sea Beach DOES have the smallest ridership of all the southwest Brooklyn lines. But that's because the Sea Beach ROW runs through an area that's very low density for Brooklyn, consisting largely of two-families and rowhouses, with very few large apartment buildings.
The West End line is the primary service for heavily populated Borough Park and the 86th Street corridor, the latter of which has many stores and apartment buildings. It's currently the only direct service to Coney, and runs via the bridge, bypassing the downtown bottlenecks the Sea Beach trains must endure.
The Culver is the sole provider along upper McDonald Avenue, and while all local, offers a generally faster ride to downtown Brooklyn and Midtown than the Sea Beach, whose lower segment it closely parallels.
The Brighton is Brooklyn's easternmost N-S line below Brooklyn College and has many connections to buses serving easterly areas such as East Flatbush, Flatlands, Marine Park and Manhattan Beach. It also serves many high-density areas with large apartment houses, not to mention the College, numerous high schools and the busy Kings Highway and Brighton Beach shopping areas. That it has express service and uses the Bridge makes it more attractive than the Culver and Nostrand lines that parallel it.
When I've ridden the outbound Sea Beach during the PM rush, it seems that there's very heavy exiting volume at 8th Avenue, Fort Ham (neither of which are close to any other line) and fairly heavy at 18th Avenue. After heavy discharge at Bay Parkway, the train would be fairly deserted. These conditions applied after express service was restored under 4th Avenue, but before the line was cut back to 86th. The latter may have reduced ridership some, given the crew changes at the Highway and ensuing congestion.
Excpet the N, which goes "N"owhere, the Sea Beach! :-)
Mike: I like your way of thinking. I hope the #4 Slow Beach you-know-who doesn't see this thred.
Better yet I hope he does.
Larry, RedbirdR33
He did. I'm beginning to think that Hope Tunnel is synonomous with the Montague. I hope not but I'm getting that feeling. How about it Rip T? Am I getting warm?
About 185 miles cold.
Dirty pool Rip T. I think you were trying to raise my blood pressure with that statement about my train. But I will shake if off and wish you a very happy New Year. But don't let it happen again, ok?
Happy new year to you, too. I think the BMTman's bad influence had something to do with my comment. I actually like the Slo- er, Sea Beach, especially when the W runs on the express tracks. I'll have to make a derogatory remark about the Franklin Avenue Sh*ttle as retribution.
And why the Franklin shuttle? If it was 5-6 years ago, when it was in such horrid shape it looked like it would ccollapse at any moment, then you could say it was a piece of shit. But now, its beautiful and it made a 360 degree appearence from those days so you can't call it the sh*ttle as you call it.
Does anyone here have a sense of humor? :(
Of course I do but it may offend some people [it didn't offend me] but the Franklin shuttle is not the ugly, brittle what it once was. If you want to make fun of something, make fun of the condition of the Montague St tunnel aka the rathole ;-). See I have a sense of humor!
...the Franklin shuttle is not the ugly, brittle what it once was.
I find ugly and brittle far more interesting than new and flashy. And the intent was to offend BMTman specifically :)
If you want to make fun of something, make fun of the condition of the Montague St tunnel aka the rathole ;-). See I have a sense of humor!
No, that was just mean ;)
That's uncalled for LOL ;-). Hey the Montague's condition is bad.
You are either an obnoxious SOB or never rode the new Franklin Shuttle. Since it reopened in October 1999, twice as many people have taken advantage of a great shuttle line, unless you are referring to the old dark, dingy shuttle.
Obnoxious SOB. I've ridden the new Frankie, and I think it's beautiful and great for the community, although I'm disappointed that I didn't get to ride the old one.
Don't worry you missed nothing, but if you want to feel in your imagination on how it's like to ride the old crappy shuttle, then go to the Franklin Shuttle page in this website under The BMT.
DISAPPOINTED? Trust me RIPTA, you wouldn't be disappointed when you see its condition prior to the rebuilding, especially Botanic Garedn's condition just awful. In general, the WHOLE line was in shambles, it seemed like it was stuck in a time warp, stuck in the deferred maintenance days. I could tell you a whole lot but take a look at the pics prior to the rebuilding, the story is told by the ics.
All true, but it was a nostalgic treat. I loved the railings that used to be at the Franklin Ave station.
But yes, other than nostalgic, it was a total shambles.
Sometimes I wish that I could go back in time to see things as they were in the past.
With the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, I did get to ride a line in the past (except with R-68s), and I think it was great.
Still, I also think it was great it was rebuilt. I'm glad I got to ride that line several times in its old state, but I also don't lament the passing of the old state. I couldn't care less about nostalgia.
I wouldn't really find the old Franklin shuttle to be nostalgic and at least I had the opportunity to ride the rickety, brittle structure in the past. I wonder how it was like when the Frankiln shuttle was a actual train line. How come they don't extend the shuttle in the summer to Coney Island like they used to, it would provide extra local service or run it via express if desired.
Pigs, as you get older you will get nostalgic
No, I will not.
You say that now, but just wait...
Yes to will young sir. I told myself the same thing about 40 years ago, and I used to roll my eyes when my parents waxed nostalgic. I said later for this, but I got the same way myself. Look as my emotional attachment for the old days on New York's best line, the Sea Beach. My colleagues go batty hearing me drone on and on about it, and the same is true about the Brooklyn Dodgers of my youth. It is inevitable, so keep saying no and someday you can tell those of use who are left that you finally got religion on the subject.
old gas passer
Yes, it is inevitable that I will look back on something happily, but my brain will tell me that:
Things are never as good as you remember.
Every generation when it gets old says that the past is better, but
it never really is.
The future is always something to look forward to, unless you have a short time left, but I don't intend to die for hundreds of years.
It's strange what one's brain will do to one...
Oh you kid!
That's right. Wait until he picks up a book on some subject, sees pictures in it from years back and recollects, "my dad took me here" or "I rode that" ... I'm doing that right now with a book on Coney Island called Coney Island - Lost and Found. And I'm not that old, either.
--Mark
But I will never look back at that as the best time in the world.
Maybe not Pig but here may be a reason why. As a 62 year old man I grea up in the late 40's and early 50's in New York and the city was cleaner, safer and more of a joy back then. It was a great time to grow up after the war. People were busy having families, saving for the future and preparing to buy houses either in the city or on Long Island. We had three baseball teams and Coney Island was a jewel then. Why wouldn't we be somewhat nostalgic. Even though you have missed out on that there will be enough for you to remember to look back fondly on the New York of your youth. Bank on it.
There will be a lot to look back on fondly, but just as you have your great things that are worse now, there are also things that are still good or were crappy then and either still are or are much better now. So I will always now that the time of my youth was not the best time ever for the world. Doesn't mean it wasn't the best time for me.
I may buy this book soon. My friend heypaul reviewed it, and if he says it's good then it passes muster with me. heypaul lives very close to Coney Island and the next time I visit New York I hope to borrow one of his bycycles and go riding around the area with him.
I saw his review at Amazon.com when I bought the book. The first third is Coney Island history, the remainder is experiences of the author and others he interviewed from the 60s to the present. You won't be disappointed.
--Mark
The last time I rode the Franklin, they still had BMT Standards! And to be honest, as a railfan, that was the ONLY reason I rode it.
I did not think you were THAT OLD, good old 3 car standards with white ball marker
I'm not THAT old!!! :)
But I do remember Standards on the Franklin, Culver , & Canarsie Lines, Q cars on the Myrtle, and World's Fair Low V's on the Bronx Third Av El. And as a toddler I can recall Standards on all the BMT Lines, and either PCC's or trackless trolley's in Brooklyn. (I was too young to tell the difference, but it was probably trackless trolleys as they lasted longer)
If you wanted to ride the old, dingy Franklin Shuttle, consider this:
Try riding in a R32 set where you get off at Botanic Garden station, where bats come flying in the dark, worse than a station with incandescent lighting. Where walking the platform at Park Place is like walking planks side by side off the edge of a pirate ship. Where in order to transfer to the A train at the north end, you have to contend with crackheads who block your area trying to see if you would give up your transfer ticket. Then they would sell the same transfers by the staircases and turnstiles.
So you are missing nothing with the old Franklin Shuttle.
Agreed, I have seen ALL of that in the old Franklin shuttle! You saw how close they were to closing it down & making it a 24 hour shuttle bus but communtiy opposition won and got the MTA to rebuild it.
Hey Kool-D, remember the 20 minute transfers you got at either end of the terminals when you had to exit the station and go up/down those wooden stairs at Franklin to go to the A/C, the abandoned Dean St where the homeless hung out. To add to the other two stations, Park Place was in such horrid shape that they closed part of the platform and a mezzanine, and Botanic Garden, well that speaks for itself the "abandoned" part outside the indoor section, the abandoned exit, the rotting wood platform just atrocious.
Did you remember the R34's that were running on the shuttle over 30 years ago before they were retired? And yes I remember thinking that President Street side of Botanic Garden station was open, when it was not.
I wasn't even born to see the R34's in action on the shuttle, I only know of the 2 car R68's; but I don't get why the 34's were retired in 1976 [only 27 years old] they could of remained on the shuttle until they were old enough to be retired. Man, I'm sure glad the brittle shuttle is no longer in existence.
The R34's (originally numbered R11) was a prototype for the R32, both built by Budd. It was just a 10 car set, that did not see much action, much like the R110A and R110B are prototypes for R142 and R143 respectively.
The R11/R34's don't look so similar to the R32's like the R110A's/R142's do & I know it was a 10 car set [8010-8019]. And plus it took 15 years between the R11's arrival and R32's to arrive in NYC.
Those R11's were everywhere during their lives, mostly on BMT routes. Only after their R34 rebuild were they banished to the Franklin shuttle. IIRC, it was designated as "the million dollar train" when it was first introduced. It must've contrasted greatly with other BMT equipment in service in 1949.
The R-11 was not a prototype for the R-32. The two classes were built 15 years apart, and there were three classes (R-16, R-27, and R-30) in between for the BMT/IND.
David
The R-11's were NOT prototypes for the R-32s. The R-11's were a test fleet that was built exclusively for use on the planned Second Avenue Subway route -- which obviously has yet to came to pass -- so nothing beyond the 10 cars was produced in that class.
The R-32's, having been produced by Budd in 1963 are the cousins of the R-11/34 cars since both had the same manufacturer, but not a related order.
To add to my previous post, R11's were actually a prototype for the 2 Av subway [which a later bond in 1950-1951 was rejected and shelved the project] & NOT the R32 since they were 15 years apart. R11's ran all over the city, and at times were coupled to R16's and probably other classes to make up 10 car trains [8 on the BMT lines] then got confined to the Franklin shuttle until their retirement.
which a later bond in 1950-1951 was rejected and shelved the project
The 1950s bond was APPROVED and issued. The money was spent on other things.
My fault, you're correct it was approved. Too bad the current infrastructure at that time was in poor shape we could of had the 2 Av subway now [well actually the 70's was the best time since they actually broke ground but the fiscal crisis killed it].
Isn't that embezzlement?
No, it's just good old New York City politics :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Anon, both kudos and rasberries to your fellow North Carolinians. Kuddos for sending Liddy Dole to the Senate, a great move because she is a fine lady and a very intelligent politico in her own right. Rasberries for that marbles-in-your-mouth trial lawyer who thinks he is qualified to be President. John Edwards, or One-Third John, is a lowlifer and I can read him from a mile off.
Anyway, we've got to go railfanning again this year sometime, Jersey, NY, etc. Doesn't matter. It's the company right?
Nah, I wouldn't say it was embezzlement, its just New York politics 8-)
The money was spent on transit.
I've said this before but the R-11's have a special place for me. I used to carry as my desktop a picture of an R-11 taken on January 24, 1970 on King's Highway. What was special about this was this was my wife's 22nd birthday, the year we were to get married, and the train carried the old #4 insignia of my childhood Sea Beach. The only problem seems to be that the R-11's bring out the best and worst in Subtalkers. I've heard some real praise for the car and some real nasty comments as well.
I remember them on the Franklin Shuttle, laid up all the time
The OLD Franklin Shuttle had its charm (i.e. the 1906 canopy at Dean Street, the absolute ricketyness of Park Place, the cave-like atmosphere under Eastern Parkway), but in places it was out and out dangerous. They did the community justice in replacing it.
wayne
Yeah, you wise guy....it didn't woik...I'm the Teflon Railfan...your remarks merely grazed me...no permanent effects....gotta try alot harder there, RIPTAman. Hahahahahaha
I just think he doesn't understand the Franklin Avenue Shuttle to Bmtman connection.
That's what gets me. They run West End Jeff's train on the Sea Beach Express tracks but they don't run my train on its own tracks. Confusing. It's a pisser, I can tell you that. I'd like to see a real Sea Beach train run on the express tracks for a change and I don't mean during a fan trip.
Got bad news, (I was hoping this is not the case.), but NYCT is planning to eliminate both express tracks on your favorite line in Brooklyn. You need to petition to stop this ASAP, don't know how when your'e 3 time zones away.
One track has already been abandoned. Please cite a source for the claim that the other (which has recently been rebuilt and resignalled) is to be abandoned as well.
David
There was a GO this past summer that had Sea Beach trains running express on the "center" track between 59th Street and Kings Highway during midday hours for a week or two. I made certain to take a day off and get video, including an express run between Pacific St and Kings Highway. It was aboard an R-32 and it was beautiful!
There have also been GOs in the past that had Sea Beach trains running express down the center track on the West End Line to Manhattan. That run was fun, too!
--Mark
>>"There have also been GOs in the past that had Sea Beach trains running express down the center track on the West End Line to Manhattan. That run was fun, too!"<<
I agree with you on that and getting a R32 [an R40 is good too] makes it even better running express down the middle track via West End. I hope this GO comes back one day, I'll be ready to ride it. I hope the Sea Beach express [as a GO] comes back as well in the future.
Fred, the W runs on the Sea Beach express track b/c of GO's. It is pretty odd & 'embarrassing' that the West End trains run on the express more than the Sea Beach(N) but its just a GO so don't take it that hard.
If the N ran on the express track, there'd be nothing left to actually make Sea Beach stops.
Does it matter what letter is up front? It comes from Astoria, runs express on Broadway, then express on the Sea Beach. And THIS is what is should look like, of course! :)
Express on Broadway? Not on weekends, unless there are two GO's on the W.
Incidentally, very frequently, the W will have one GO sending it one way via Sea Beach express and another GO sending it the other way over the Manhattan Bridge. (This weekend is one example, IINM.) Rarely if ever do the two GO's affect the same direction. Is this a deliberate policy or does it just happen to work out this way?
You modified that picture didnt ya.
Ok, did you have to put a 4 bullet in the pic ;-).
Wrong color bullet, s/b gold.
wayne
Considering the number to letter switch was done forty years ago I'm surprised none of the older posters recall the methodology. If the date of the switch can be approximated perhaps one of you with a library card could check old newspapers. Surely some rationale must have been given.
In the pre-Chrystie era, QB, stood for Q via. Bridge, QT was Q via. Tunnel (the Montague Rathole as we now call it today), while QJ was Q via. Nassau St (JJ line). Same was for RR and RJ.
Actually, when letters were introduced to the BMT, the R was the RR then after double letters were eliminated in 1985-1986 it became the R. As for routes like the QJ, RJ, QB and NX, those routes letters were rather odd but their meanings made sense. All double lettered lines were supposed to be locals but apparently there were variation to this so ithey just got dropped.
For example: The AA became the K in 1985 then the K got replaced by a expanded C in 1988; actually, you could say that the and K got combined to create the expanded C.
The QB is the present day Q & since double letters were dropped in the 80's, it became 1 letter.
When the QJ was cancelled in 1976, the M replaced this service in Brooklyn via the Brighton line. Then when the M was "temporarily" moved to the West End in 1988, the D became the full time local therefore replacing M local service and no longer has special express trains to Brighton Beach.
When the BMT was assigned IND-style letters in 1960, they were labeled as such:
J-Jamaica
K-Broadway Bklyn
L-14th/Canarsie
N-Sea Beach
Q-Brighton
R-4th Ave
T-West End
M was never universally used for the old #10. It was used to denote the pre-Chrystie Nassau St. banker's specials on equipment bought after 1960 (R27/30 and R32 cars).
K, L, R & T became double letters for obvious reasons. The QT and QB letters were used istead of QQ to differentiate between what route the Brighton local would take into Manhattan (tunnel or bridge). There were some other post Chrystie St. designations, like RJ, NX, QJ & MJ.
>>>When the BMT was assigned IND-style letters in 1960, they were labeled as such:
J-Jamaica
K-Broadway Bklyn
L-14th/Canarsie
N-Sea Beach
Q-Brighton
R-4th Ave
T-West End <<<
The Joekorner could probably help with this, but when did the West End get the B train?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not Joe. But IIRC the B went West End in 1968 after Christie St.
Make that Nov. 28, 1967.
From 11/67 to 7/68, the B ran from 168th St. during rush hours to Brooklyn, but terminated at W4th St. other times because the 57th St. terminal was not yet ready. Why they just didn't run it up the Broadway express to make a more convenient ride is beyond me.
And they used the R-1/R-4 stock that the former "BB" used, in fact they continued to use this periodically right up until they got their R42s. The R32 cars came into widespread use on the "B" after 8/1/68.
wayne
To the best of my memory, R32s shared the B with the R1/4s right from 1967. To my recollection, the split was roughly 50/50, but may have been 60/40 in favor of the R32s. True, it seemed to me that the D had a higher proportion of Brightliners than the B. All tolled, the N got the best deal as it did not get any R1/4s, the majority of its rolling stock was R27/30s with about one-third R32s. Most of the R32s had a "pasty", that is a crude B sign pasted over the BB, in the bulkhead. Some R1/4s were still on the B and D until late 1972, when the R44s went into service (A,D,E,F lines) and other equipment filtered down to the B to replace the scrapped R1/4s.
Immediatley after Chrystie opened in 11/67. I've heard there were originally plans to call it the BT, demonstrating the line's IND and BMT sections, but this was never done.
Maybe someone can clue me in on this but I have never understood why the BMT went from numbers to letters while the IRT who never showed them on any of their trains were given numbers. I know all this started around 1961 and lasted until it was finalized by 1967, but I just can't figure out why the IRT wasn't given letters since they weren't known for their number designations.
The IRT did start showing numbers in the mid-50's before the change, but since the BMT was compatible with the IND, and plans were already on the drawing board to integrate them, then it made sense to convert the BMT to letters.
Now, if the IND had gone with IRT dimensions (which was an option in the planning stages), and had inegrated with the IRT...
Now, if the IND had gone with IRT dimensions (which was an option in the planning stages), and had inegrated with the IRT...
We'd have trains numbered up to 22 or beyond.
No, the IRT would have probably gotten letters, and the BMT kept its numbers.
Also, if the IND second system had been built, it would have used "J" and above (e.g. "J" was to be Winfield/Whitepot-Myrtle-Crosstown). Most of the BMT Eastern would have been replaced, but the BMT southern would probaly not have gotten the letters it did.
I think the BMT still would have gotten letters had the 2nd system IND been built. Many BMT/IND connections were planned, especially between the southern division and the 2nd Ave line. After H, there were 18 letters left to use, and if all were also used as double letters (a la A/AA), that would have created 36 possible markings outside the original IND letters.
The second system may have used most of them up. I saw one old plan where 2nd Av. and 63rd St. used X, XX, Y, YY, Z and ZZ. Of course IND lines extended to the BMT would have brought those letters there.
According to the plan used by the Bahn layout:
A - Wash Hgts - 8th Ave - Fulton - Fulton (Bkl) - Rockaway
AA - Wash Hgts - 8th Ave - Worth St - South 4th - Myrtle Ave - Rockaway
BB - Wash Hgts - 6th Ave - Worth St - South 4th - Myrtle Ave - Rockaway
CC - Concourse - 8th Ave - Houston St - South 4th - Utica Ave
D - Concourse - 6th Ave - Houston - South 4th - Utica
E - Archer - Jamaica - 8th Ave - Fulton - Fulton (Bkl) - Rockaway
EE - Jamaica - Broadway (BMT)
F - Jamaica - 6th Ave - Houston - Culver
GG - Forest Hills - Crosstown - Brooklyn Church Ave
HH - Euclid Ave - (Rockaway) - Far Rockaway
J - Crosstown - Myrtle - Roosevelt
K - Rockaway - Roosevelt
Q - Dyre Ave - 2nd Ave - Manhattan Bridge - BMT
R - 110th St - 2nd Ave - Broadway (BMT)
T - Jamaica - 63rd St - 2nd Ave - South 4th - Utica
V - Archer - Jamaica - 63rd St - 6th Ave - Houston - Culver
W - Pelham - 2nd Ave - Court St - Fulton (Bkl)
So I imagine L, N and QB would have remained the same (completely in BMT). M probably would be Essex to whichever line in the south. Considering that in this plan, Chrystie St is connected, but not used, you still have the West End. (And if they then started to use it, with B and D already running elsewhere...!) And this assumes the second system comes after the lettering of the BMT. If it was built before, then not only J and T, but the other letters would have been snatched up first as well. So if they would have still been able to squeeze out the last few letters, they would not be the same as what they are now.
e.g. "J" was to be Winfield/Whitepot-Myrtle-Crosstown
Where did you get that little piece of info from? Is there a list somewhere?
The Bahn layout.
The IND and BMT were integrated beginning in the 1950's. By 1968 many routes consisted of BMT and IND sections. A unified route identification system was necessary. Since the city came up with the original IND letter system in 1932 and the city controlled the BMT by 1960, you can guess why the IND system prevailed.
The IRT is a totally seperate system so the incompatibality was harmless, thus the retention of the IRT number system.
Who cares? That's like asking why the Flushing line is also known as the 7, the Broadway IRT 1/2/3/9, etc...
The 9 really through off the system, but before that:
WEST SIDE: 1,2,3
EAST SIDE: 4,5,6
FLUSHING: 7
There is obviously a pattern there. In any case, some people care. I care.
The 9 really THREW off the system, but before that:
WEST SIDE: 1,2,3
EAST SIDE: 4,5,6
FLUSHING: 7
There is obviously a pattern there. In any case, some people care. I care.
I see corrected your spelling error. Duly noted. :)
So far wall tiles have been removed...new curtain wall added where there was formerly a gap...edges of platforms had tiles removed. Any word on when the entrance near the Applebee's (the one under that black office building) would be open again? It's been an inconvenience crossing Flatbush Av Extension to get to the station.
Also, any word on when the new wall tiles are going to be added? The station looks even more horrid than it did before the renovation but I hope it comes out looking great.
"Also, any word on when the new wall tiles are going to be added?"
Perhaps after the holidays, maybe work was suspended due to that.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't like that new curtain wall one bit. Hampers the railfannability, you know. Why was it installed? Could the previously existing curtain wall have been removed without raising structural issues?
There was previously a gap in the wall (left behind because there was formerly a cross-over between the Montague tracks and "super express" tracks that was removed once platforms were extended). I guess they just wanted a wall there for one reason or another.
Sometime in the summer of 2003, the West entrance will reopen. Then you have to worry about the other entrance by Junior's, once that is finished.
I don't know when that entrance is going to reopen but I assume it will when all the renovations are complete. As for the curtain wall, it looks ugly but we can't do nothing about it.
A station will usually look horrid when it is in the beginning stages of being renovated and no I don't know when the new tile is going to be added. Yes, more of the Brighton stations are getting makeovers like Atlantic Av & Newkirk Av :-) [not Dekalb really since the M,N,R & W are on the middle track but the Q still serves it]. Church Av needs a makeover its so dark and ugly for such a busy station.
Church Avenue was done back in 1984-1986
*****RUMOR*****
Current RUMOR at Brighton Beach is that the Q will be forced through the Montague Tunnel on weekends for the spring/summer pick due to work at DeKalb Ave/Gold St Interlocking.
WRONG! The reason the Q will go through the Montague Street rathole on weekends (and possibly late nights too!) is that NYCDOT needs to have the Mannhattan Bridge shut so that it can rebuild and replace the North upper level roadway.
"Kool-D" is correct. I mentioned it here last week. Of course, it is possible that NYCT will use the opportunity to do work on Gold Street Interlocking if that work needs to be done.
David
No need to get so huffy. I said it was a RUMOR and repeated what I had heard. I made no assertations that it was correct - if I was spouting facts, I wouldn't have needed the word RUMOR, would I?
But it has been known for at least 1 month already that NYCT is planning to coordinate this with NYCDOT on the subway shutdowns. The Myrtle Ave interlocking can be done any weekend NYCT sees fit, and it takes only two to three weekends to perform this type of G.O., not 6 months as you stated in the rumor.
Wasn't the North upper level roadway replaced already back when the North side was previously shut down?
At that time back in 1986-1988, I don't know what entailed about the roadway shutdown, but this is the FINAL stage of a 20 year bridge project. Initially, NY State DOT started the project back in 1982, but NYCT DOT took over control from the state in 1986.
Have they taken down the friezes (the top borders with the "De Kalb Avenue" tablets) yet? And what about the 1960s tile at the north end of the station, is that stuff still there?
wayne
If I recall, the tablets are still intact and the 1960s tile still remains at the north end.
I am back to make Subway Predictions for 2003:
1. Redbirds will no longer be operating in revenue service.
2. R62A will dominate the 7.
3. R62 will dominate the 3.
4. We will get our 1st look at a mock up model of the R160/R160A.
5. East Side will be ALL R142/R142A except for a train or 2 of R62A for the 4 and S.
6. LIRR will start scrapping some of the worst running and looking M1.
7. M7 Will operate in service to Penn Sta
8. MNRR will test an M7 on their lines.
9. Manny B project will be complete earlier than expected.
10. V train will be replaced by the Q.
What's your Opinion? What do you all think of my predictions? We would like to know!
Happy New Year to All Subtalkers!!!
From R62A 1979 on the #7 Flushing Local...in due time!
Most of those sound about right, except for the one concerning early completion of the Manhattan Bridge project. I fear that it'll be more of the same.
More R143's!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Good Prediction but the are few things that needed to resolve
10. V train will be replaced by the Q?
I think you need to recheck that with the MTA
9. Manny B project will be complete earlier than expected?
I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. Maybe you haven't visited the Grand Street Station yet. I suggested that you should and see for yourself if you are planning to come to the city.
There maybe a sneak peak of R160/R160A? Its possible
You forgot about R143/143A which will be fully dominated the entire L line and maybe began to go J M Z line
143A???????????????
11) heypaul will install a Metrocard swipe turnstyle for us to gain access to his apartment.
Bill "Newkirk"
One more prediction, with the hopefull selection of a plan for the WTC site, perhaps we'll see construction begin on a new Cortlandt Street station on the #1.
WTF????????