I just witnessed a heavy-wind blown snow storm pass by as I was visiting SubTalk at this ungodly hour....it lasted a total of 15 mintues, but left a dusting and brought visibility to hazardous conditions. Anyone else awake to have seen this storm in action?
I passed through a snow storm driving to Ithaca, NY just now. I passed out more than ten 4x4 and AWD vehicles. PATHETIC! These people buy SUV's and then go 10mph when it snows. What a friggen waste. I could do so much more with an SUV. (I have a FWD car.)
--Brian
Umm - you may be able to get up over 10 mph in the snow with a 4x4, but can you _stop_ from that higher speed? 4WD does not have any effect braking performance in slippery conditions.
subfan
"4WD does not have any effect braking performance in slippery conditions."
Many 4WD owners only learn that little fact from personal experience.
Yes. But the two accidents I passed consisted of cars, not SUV's, that had ended up in the ditch. So I guess the SUV drivers up here go too slow instead of too fast.
--Brian
Yeah, my brakes were worthless. So I just used engine braking. I would shift down to 3 or 2 instead of using the brakes. Worked great!
--Brian
SUV's help you get THOUGH the snow, not speed throught the snow. On ice an SUV will have almost as much trouble stopping than any other car. In fact they can flip over easier. So yes, SUV's are great in the snow, but you still can't stop if you drive too fast.
True. That's why you must resort to other tricks to slow down in snow. Such as throwing an anchor out the window or just downshifting.
--Brian
Hey, you should have been in "sunny?" Southern California yesterday afternoon. A rain shower turned into a mini blizzard and the hail came down fast and furious. Within three or four minutes our green lawn was all white. You could have sworn it had snowed. The last time it snowed in the valley's of Southern California was early in 1949, five years before we moved here. But this was awfully close to the real thing. Amazingly within half an hour all was melted and the grass turned into a flooded green. Not my type of weather, I can assure you of that.
>>> The last time it snowed in the valley's of Southern California was early in 1949, five years before we moved here. <<<
I have seen a dusting of snow (not hail) in Los Angeles after 1970. It was gone by noon.
Tom
If it was the same storm that hit Schenectady on Wednesday, I guarantee you that I wouldn't be driving too fast either. Visibility was 35-50 FEET.
I just got home to Howell, NJ and the sky is clear. All i see are the stars espectly Orion's Belt.
Robert
no snow here in nassau now 3:45 am
no snow here in nassau now 3:45 am
Dougie,
The proper term for that phenomenon is a "snow sqall." It is defined as a sudden burst of snow, accompanied by a gusty wind that lasts for minutes (vs. hours). It usually marks the leading edge of an arctic cold front. Which this one did.
Glossary of Meteorology for those who might be interested.
I've already returned to Boston from NYC (via a jam-packed AE), and we had it here too.
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Thanks Todd. That's why my handle is BMTman and not Cumulusman. LOL!
Another poster remarked that nothing happenned in Nassau County....I wouldn't have expected it there: I visually followed the particular cloud -- it went out to sea after passing over the Rockaways...never got past Queens.
Good observation, Dougie. Snow squalls are usually from small cumulus clouds (mini-versions of thunderstorm clouds) and can often cover just a small area. When these clouds are lined up, they're called a "squall line," and (in the summer) can produce intense thunderstorms and associated wind.
ON TOPIC: Last summer we had a particularly nasty squall line over Rockville Center. It was moving due east. The anchor asked me where it was headed. Without hesitation, I replied, "Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantaugh, Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst, and Babylon." The anchor, Wayne Cabot (a rail fan too) almost cracked up on the air :-)
The anchor, Wayne Cabot (a rail fan too) almost cracked up on the air :-)
I recall when I worked in the newsroom at WNEW 1130 as a copy boy back in the days when Julie LaRoasa was on the air....
Anyway... I brought in the race results, a horse named "Cunning Stunt" had won the race....
Oh Oh!...... From this time onward listeners would call in saying "Julie.... your horse is running!)
Elias
>>> When these clouds are lined up, they're called a "squall line," and (in the summer) can produce intense thunderstorms and associated wind. <<<
Todd;
Why is thunder and lightening only a summer phenomenon? There is no thunder and lightening with snow squalls.
Tom
There is no thunder and lightening with snow squalls.
Never been to North Dakota, eh?
Rare... but we have seen them.
Very Weird!
More common of course is a BigSummerTunderStorm
with hail accumulations measured in inches.
Elias
Not true! Lightning and its resultant thunder occur in winter too. "Thundersnows" happen about three or four times a year in the NYC area. It's more rare because in colder air, the air is generally more stable and thus tall cumulonimus clouds are more difficult to form. It's the difference in electrical charge within these clouds (and also from cloud-to-ground) which causes lightning.
In fact, there was lightning/thunder reported last evening (Saturday) just southeast of Nantucket. In the winter, you'll find electrical storms most likely to occur when low pressure systems are deepening (strengthening) rapidly.
Todd, I was once told that lightening actually comes from the ground but only looks as though it's coming from the clouds? (or are there different types of lightening strikes?) Also, is it true that in every lightening flash there may be four or five separate 'bursts' but the human eye can't register the speed at which these bolts travel? (Gee, I think it's time to create "WeatherTalk").
Dougie,
First of all, it's "lightning" (no "e" :-)
True, the stroke begins at the ground with a "leader" and then the big discharge comes from the cloud and joins the leader. There can be dozens or hundreds of separate strokes that the human eye sees as one.
As it turns out, there has been a "WeatherTalk" (abbreviated WxTalk) and it's a listserve that's been around longer than SubTalk!
Now, back to our trains....
Thankx (with an 'x') :)
dso you have the URL to Wx Talk? is it open for the general public?
It's a listserve. In otherwords, compilation of emails. Information is available here.
It's a listserve. In otherwords, compilation of emails. Information is available here.
I saw some snow on the cars Sunday morning. Jeez, I missed a snowstorm, we never get 'em any more...
There's some talk abt Monday afternoon and Thursday. But we'll get NOTHIN'...
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, it didn't come our way, but I heard it made for hazardous traffic conditions in Elizabeth NJ, another area where it might have passed over.
wayne
Are you sure it was snow? We are talking Brooklyn, here!!!
Either that or some really big dude with a SERIOUS dandruff problem was combing his hair....
Maybe that was the reason that some of the roads in the area iced up this morning.
#3 West End Jeff
I was briefly out at that insane hour around prospect heights, and that weird ass snow storm came out of nowhere. I got in a cab as it started, and by the time we got where we were going, it was done, just little snow sliding around the ground with the wind.
Ya, that's the one...
Photos from 11/27/2002 of the Canal St (J/M/Z) Station are available here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/CanalJMZ
--Brian
Brian, thanks for posting those. I was there a few weeks ago, but it has prgressed quite a but since I was there. (I haven'
t had the chance to get there recently). When I was there, the construction wall was around the Queens-bound "express" track already, and those little cement block walls were already covering the "holes" in the curtain wall, but they haden't "broke through" yet.
Why in the world would they be cementing over the former track there, even with the platform, if they will be abandoning it anyway?
but they haden't "broke through" yet.
"Haden't?", obviously "hadn't" had my coffee yet.
I usually visit there often, but I havent been there for a month, thanks for posting.
What happens if and when the second ave line gets built?
I thought it was to hook up with the Nassau Line? If that was the case, wouldn't the additional ROW be of use?
avid
>>What happens if and when the second ave line gets built?
I thought it was to hook up with the Nassau Line? If that was the case, wouldn't the additional ROW be of use?<<
The southern part of the Second Ave subway route has not been finalized. One route would take it down to Water St. That's right on the edge of the Financial District. That way all those living on the upper east side would have a one seat ride if they worked in the Financial District.
Anoter route would tie into Centre St. Subway and terminate at Chambers St. That's probably why the Chambers St.was neglected all these years. Just waiting, waiting and waiting for the City to build the Second Ave. subway.
You know, that's also why they are reconfiguring the Centre St. subway. If they choose the Centre St. route, the (J)(M)&(Z) would already have been shifted over and they could tie in 2nd Ave. If they choose Water St, then Centre st. would stay shifted over.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Either way, whatever route the 2nd AVe subway takes (if and when of course), what they are doing now with cutting through at Canal is necessary. If the SAS takes the Water Street route, the abandonment will remain, and there is no need for the extra platforms anyway. If the SAS takes the Nassau Line route, the break through at Canal would also be necessary because all four traks will be needed. so either way, it's a good idea to continue the work being done there.
This IS an issue. I spoke with some transportation engineering people in the know on the 2nd Av project (outside of the MTA) and they were surprised when I told them that Canal St J/M/Z was losing two tracks...
Not that unusual, if the plan is for the 2nd ave. subway is supposed to merge at Chambers St. That means the extra tracks at Bowery and Canal Street would still be unnecessary.
The 2nd Ave Subway would probably merge with the Nassau line between Canal and Bowery. Either way the issue is a non-issue at Bowery; the 2nd Avenue line will never run through there, even if the Nassau Line alignment is used, that platform's days are numbered, and will probably never see life again once closed. As for Canal - hey you never know. It may reopen again many years from now, when and if the 2nd Ave ever gets built.
I wonder if there are any of the original Canal St. signs still hiding
there? I had to create one for my Canal St. shirts, but still pine for the real thing.
Er? The original mosaics are still visible on the uptown side, though the uptown platform is something of a tight squeeze.
The original porcelain White with Black letters signs were still at Canal until fairly recently - they were all only removed about 10 years ago or so.
I know! : (
I would love to find one!
Yeah, if they lasted as long as they did, they should have left them.
OthersPorcelain White with Black letters signs lost within the last 10 years or so were (I'm sure there were more, but I remeber these personally that lasted to the early 90's) :
Grand Central (4/5/6)
Roosevelt-Jackson Heights - that was a nice one!
Times Square-Broadway (I think that's still there?) I forgot to notice the many times I've been through there.
Any others lasting until 10 years ago - or better yet - still there?
Atlantic (Brighton) still has them.
There was one at Myrtle Ave on the "L" that was within a newsstand, built around a column. When the newsstand was removed and replaced elsewhere, one white sign remained on the column for some time. I believe its gone now.
Conrad, I remember that one! ABout 10 years ago they removed the aformentioned newstand that was butt-up against the column. When they removed the newstand, there was the lone dirty porcelain sign, right in the middle of the station. Eventually it got cleaned, and it survived for quite a few years. Unfortunately, about 3 or so years ago, they changed all the Myrtle column signs, and that one also was removed at that time. I wonder what they do with all the signs like that, I guess throw them out. I would have loved the lone white one, but wouldn't have minded one of the black ones they removed either.
For a time, Myrtle had three types of pillar signs:
Myrtle Avenue (black)
Myrtle (black)
Myrtle (the lone white one)
Times Square still has the signs on the pillars (last I checked a month or so ago). I don't know about the hanging signs.
Yeah, I know they are still on the pillars at Times Square, I definitely noticed them fairly recently, but for the life of me, I can't remember if the hanging ones were still there. They were until a few years ago.
If both of the current northbound tracks are to be abandoned, what's the point in putting a concrete platform across the northbound "express" right of way? Will that new platform also be extended across the current northbound "local" right of way? Why?
If there's a possibility of using those easterly tracks for a Second Avenue routing, why cover them so thoroughly? Nice future contract for someone, one might think.
It's interesting that the TA eliminated the Houston-Second Avenue-Chrystie-Houston link from the City's Second Avenue plans that lasted into early TA days. It would have provided an alternate to some of the Manhattan Bridge reroutings BMT riders have suffered with for the last twenty something years. And there might have been a better terminal choice for the 'V'--Canal, Chambers, or Broad, giving Queens Boulevard people closer one-train financial district access than the 'E' at Chambers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
If both of the current northbound tracks are to be abandoned, what's the point in putting a concrete platform across the northbound "express" right of way?
The entire Queens-bound platform will be abandoned, no question there. As for why they are covering the "express" track there, I have no idea.
>Will that new platform also be extended across the current northbound "local" right of way?
No, that track will remain active, although not in revenue service. the track will be usable for reroutes, etc if need be.
I figure they're going to cover the "express" track to increase the storage capacity of the platform. That way, they can have work trains go into the local track, then pick up whatever they need there.
As an additional note, it looks like the street entrances to the uptown platform have been demolished. One possible spot on Walker St. looks like it has been cemented over, and another possible spot nearby has a metal plate over it. I saw this last Friday. As for Bowery, when I checked it last weekend nothing seemed to be happening.
It's interesting to see just how extensive Bowery station is. If I'm correct, it even used to have a building entrance. There's a blocked archway on the SW corner of Bowery that resembles the subway entrance at Canal and Centre. There's not much other evidence though; a store occupies the space behind the arch and there's extremely little to see aside from merchandise.
The direct street entrance to the NB platform at Canal has been closed for a long time. Anybody have an exact date? Where was it located on the street? Did the underpass connect to either of the other underpasses?
It had to be at Canal and Centre, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence other than what I pointed out. No evidence of any building entrances on the uptown side. For such a major station I would have expected more traces, but I guess there has been too much renovation.
It's been closed since 1998.
Correction: 1995. It was closed when the eastern half was renovated.
What's the latest info? It could happen (please, I hope not!) two weeks from today.
The latest news is... no news!! So what else is new?
Toussaint is still demanding the whole universe - presumably he has a plan to pay for all his demands without a fare increase, but he has yet to share that plan with the rest of humanity.
If Toussant's crew sees the expiration of a contract as a date to strike, then it's news. Most public employee contracts are finalized years after the prior contract expires, with the terms covering the period back from the present instead of the future.
The only way a deal gets done is if the potential bankruptcy of the health fund motivates the TWU, and the need for some kind of givebacks motivates the MTA. Otherwise, they can let it slide until the economy comes back, providing the funds needed for both sides to declare "victory."
Well Mayor Mike with his new no retroactive raise policy does not help the case for going with no contract if he can bring that over to the MTA. I can't see Pataki not liking it.
Most city employees contract expired June 30, 2002 and no one is even talking about talking. We are still waiting for the 1% raise from the last contract (not a raise, 1% was left to the unions to do with what they want. Some are putting it to Health & Welfare, some to raise the longivity pay).
as soon as ciywide contract is settled nyc will pay increase i.e. annuity etc.
I will likely make an appeal at either the Dec 7 or Dec 14 TWU meeting to not have any strike until AFTER the fare increase kicks in.
BTW, More Dept of Education employees got pink slips today. The seperate service on January 2nd.
Can anyone explain to me how to post photos on Subtalk??? Thanks.
Can anyone explain to me how to post photos on Subtalk??? Thanks.
You cannot post photos here.
You need to 'post' them on a website or such place that you own and or have access to, and then make a reference to them here in this forum.
I have some photos on my own personal computer, that just so happens to be setup as a webserver via a dsl line, so I can reference them here without having to post them on some other website.
The syntax that you need to reference a picture here is:
(img src="http://12.23.190.250/Photos/ETcR9D.jpg")
where the "(" and ")" are replaced with "<" and ">"
The important parts are:
1) the broken brackets (lesser and greater than signs) which tell a browser that this is HTML code.
2) the "img src" which tells the browser to go fetch a picture and to show it 'inline'.
and 3) the URL which tells the browser the absolute path to the image.
and 4) that the URL must be enclosed in quotes.
and 5) do not forget to close either the quotes or the HTML tag.
Use the "Preview" button, to be sure that it works before posting it to SubTalk.
which produces a photo like this:
if I did it correctly!
: ) Elias
However, you can also post photos here by submitting them to the webmaster for his consideration.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought of this, but that would make them part of the WebSite rather than part of the Forum....
But Good Idea... Good Photos ought to be submitted to Dave!
Elias
Like mine :)
Yeah, you could do that but if you want it to appear right away... you'll have to use your own web space. I have a huge backlog.
Yea, the last thing you want is HTML code gone sour, just because it was typed incorrectly...
Anyway, since we are on the topic of photos, here's one that I would like to share with you all...enjoy!
LIRR M-7 #7016, part of a consist of cars #7011-7016, at LIRR Jamaica Station, a few weeks ago...this is the 6:04PM Peak train from Flatbush Avenue (6:25PM from Jamaica) to Ronkonkoma...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
In addition to what the others said you can also upload them to a website somewhere and then use html codes to post them in a post here. Once you upload it to a photo site, it will have it's own address, for example, www.whatever-the-address-is.com. When you get that, you fit it into the code which exactly is [img src="www.whatever-the-address-is"], using the quotation marks, and replace[ ] with < >.
Just be aware that some photo sites do not allow for remote posting of photos, such as www.webshots.com. Imagestation allows it, and many others do also.
It's not as hard as it sounds.
On this date in...
1955...Commuting becomes a little easier for straphangers in Queens when a tunnel opens linking the IND and BMT lines just West of the Queens Plaza Station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can you clarify this ?
My Aug '47 subway map shows three lines under/over the East River: a BMT line to Queensboro Plaza, a IND line to Queens Plaza and the #7 line tunnel.
Yes, I had heard before that the 60th Street tunnel for the BMT opened in 1955, so when was the 53rd Street tunnel for the IND opened ? I also knew that they had joint service in Queens (BMT/IRT) & there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955 ?
Sorry Thurston I cannot clarify. I got the info from NY1. Maybe some others can elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
From subway maps available on this site, we can see:
- In 1951 the 53rd St and 60th St tunnels were there. Heavy BMT cars were already going to Astoria, though not connecting into the IND line.
- In 1948, both tunnels were there. The BMT service appears to have terminated at Queensboro Plaza, with IRT cars making the trip to Astoria and Flushing.
- In 1939, BMT cars traveled over the Queensboro Bridge to get to QP. The 53rd St tunnel was already there.
- In 1939, BMT cars traveled over the Queensboro Bridge to get to QP. The 53rd St tunnel was already there.
No BMT cars operated over th Queensboro Bridge in 1939, or in any other year.
My mistake. The 1939 map is very fuzzy and I misread it to indicate that the BMT trains were going over the bridge. In fact, even back on the 1924 BMT map the 60th St tunnel is there.
Oh yes, that is a fact. In fact the 4th Avenue Local, as we called it even in Queens, terminated at Queens Plaza, the only outdoor stop on that rancid line. The IRT then went to Astoria until 1949 when the #2BMT (FAL) was diverted there, giving that line about seven or eight outdoor stations.
This I know because we lived three blocks from Queens Plaza and if we wanted to go to Brooklyn or Manhattan we had to take the #2 to Times Square where we could get off and catch a breath of fresh Sea Beach air.
Of course, you'd get a whiff of fresh air while crossing the Manhattan Bridge.
Hey Fred, check out the upcoming issue of TV Guide. There's an article on Tom Brokaw's first trip to New York in 1957 that includes a photo of a Dodger game at Ebbets Field. Turns out Brokaw was a big Dodger fan. He took the subway from Times Square to Prospect Park - no doubt a Brighton express - to see the Dodgers. Don't know if he ran up the steps, though.:)
If Brokaw didn't run up the steps then he was less of a Brooklyn Dodger fan than he thought. Running up those steps quickened the blood and anticipation of a great afternoon at Ebbets Field. Good Lord, do I really miss those days. As for the TV Guide article, thanks, I will get it today after my nine holes of golf. Wish me a good round. Take care.
I had heard before that the 60th Street tunnel for the BMT opened in 1955, so when was the 53rd Street tunnel for the IND opened ?
1933.
The section of tunnel SUBWAYSURF refers to is a connection between the BMT's 60th Street tunnel and the IND's 53rd Street tunnel, also called the "11th Street cut".
I also knew that they had joint service in Queens (BMT/IRT) & there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955 ?
1949, I believe.
--Mark
>>> there was 3rd Ave el service across the Queensboro Bridge, but when did the big BMT cars reach the Plaza ... after 1955? <<<
The 3rd Avenue El never went accross the Queensboro Bridge, it was the 2nd Avenue El, and that service ended in 1942. Big BMT cars went to Queensboro Plaza elevated station through the 60th Street tunnel from the time it was built in the ‘20s. The 1955 connection allowed big BMT cars from the 60th Street tunnel to go to the IND Queensborough Plaza subway station.
Tom
Thanks guys for all the input, now lets see if I have it streight:
1. 2nd Ave el cars came across the upper deck of the Queensboro Bridge until 1942.
2. Trolleys came across the outer ROW of the lower level until 1957.
3. 60th Street tunnel brought BMT cars there in 1920s
4. 11th Street cut connected BMT to Queens Blvd. line in 1955
5. 53rd Street tunnel gave IND access to Queens Blvd in 1933
6. Steinway tunnel, initially created for a trolley line, was completed in 1907.
7. 63rd Street tunnel has two levels (subway/LIRR), but is still not fully functional.
All correct. Here are some tidbits about the above.
(1) The upper level of the Queensboro Bridge was dedicated solely to the 2nd Avenue Line until the 1920's, when two lanes for automobiles were built. This required that the subway line be moved over to one side of the upper level (not sure which) until the line's closure in 1942.
(2) The trolley that came across the Queensboro Bridge until 1957 was operated by the Queens & Manhattan Transit Corp (Q&MT) and had just three stops: 2nd Avenue in Manhattan, Welfare (now Roosevelt) Island and Queens Plaza. The portals for the trolley can still be seen on the Manhattan side of the Bridge. Joe Brennan has some excellent information on the trolley on his Abandoned Stations site.
(5) The 53rd Street tunnel was built in the same project as the 8th Avenue IND line, the first IND line to begin operations in 1932-3.
(6) The Steinway tunnel was actually intended to be a freight line between LIC and Grand Central. The tunnel was started in the 1880's but was not completed until after 1900. August Belmont of IRT fame actually ran the trolley through the tunnel after 1907 but he intended to add the line to the IRT system as soon as he could and to extend it. The line original ran only from Grand Central to Vernon and Jackson Avenues. The rest was added later. It eventually became part of the Dual Contracts expansion in 1913.
(7) Track maps for the 63rd Street tunnel show tracks connecting the Lexington Avenue station to both the 6th Avenue and Broadway Lines. There is also a provision for the 2nd Avenue Line, should it ever be built. The station as it is currently used is only half of what is there. If the station wall would be torn down, you'd see the other half of the platforms and another trackway leading to bumper blocks.
(6) The Steinway tunnel was actually intended to be a freight line between LIC and Grand Central. The tunnel was started in the 1880's but was not completed until after 1900. August Belmont of IRT fame actually ran the trolley through the tunnel after 1907 but he intended to add the line to the IRT system as soon as he could and to extend it. The line original ran only from Grand Central to Vernon and Jackson Avenues. The rest was added later. It eventually became part of the Dual Contracts expansion in 1913.
Actually, the tunnel didn't have service for very long after Belmont opened it because of litigation with the City of New York. He was forced to board it up, and it was idle from 9/24/1907 until 4/21/1917!
Read more.
--Mark
Actually on the platform you can see a piece of the unused platform. Near the elevators there are 2 doorways (one on each level) where the door is locked by a metal chain. Look thru the hole in the door, you can see the edge of the platform and the bare wall. Sometimes you can also see a lay-up train sitting there. If the porter is working there, the door might be open and you can take a quick look at the platform. And if anyone is wondering, the platform is lit.
I think they mean the tunnel that connects the BMT 60th street to the IND 53rd Street lines that the old EE and the R used to use and now the N (?) uses.
I think they mean the tunnel that connects the BMT 60th street to the IND 53rd Street lines that the old EE and the R used to use and now the N (?) uses.
The "EE" and the (N) used to use it. The (R) uses it now.
:-) Andrew
Also on this date [12/1] back in 1972 a train of R-32s jumped the tracks at the very same spot as the infamous Malbone St. wreck.
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC that mishap took place on 12/1/74.
I looked up the date on the website and they must have it wrong. In Brian Cudahy's book "Under The Sidewalks Of New York" they list the date as December 1st 1974. Thank you for the information.
#3 West End Jeff
What has happened to John?
He has been missing for 3 weeks!
>>> What has happened to John?
He has been missing for 3 weeks! <<<
He has found Bus Talk to be much less critical of his personal lifestyle.
Tom
Nowadays, he's on Bustalk more often.
David,
It would truly be great if you would delete this thread. It is bad enough when people start insulting each other in the heat of argument. But this thread has degenerated into an opportunity by some to go out of their way to insult a SubTalk poster who hasn't even been involved in this thread.
Actually, it would be TRULY great if we had less immaturity here but you know that's never going to happen, right Train Dude? Right Clayton? etc.
I know its not a suprise to many, but it seems that most AMTRAK trains in and out of NY are sold out until 8pm or so. I arrived at Penn Station at 9a this morning, and things were already packed...but my train from philly was not too crowded.
Has anyone else ridden today....and how is NJT and septa holding up today (especially on the trenton connection)
Rode 2250 NYP to WAS, completely sold out. Large crowd took the 11:05 Holiday Extra to DC, they had people go down from both 15E and 15W. No open seats on my train until Baltimore.
Rode 2250 NYP to WAS, completely sold out.
Did you transpose the 5 and 0? I was on the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge photographing trains on Sunday and got train 2205 heading for Washington at 10:58 and train 2250 headed for New York at 11:00.
2251, my bad. Did you photograph that too? It was trainset #6 (2030-2031). 2250 was 15 minutes late getting into New York (arrived as we left) and I remember passing the 2032-2034 set but can't remember exactly where. Where exactly is this bridge? I saw another post you made earlier saying you would be out there but I didn't know where exactly the bridge was.
2251 was the next train after I left. There was a bunch of trains coming after an expected 15 to 20 minute hiatus, but I was too frozen to wait for them.
The Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge is just east of Frankford Junction. It's easily accessible from either side of the tracks (4 track NEC plus multi track yard) by automobile, or from the Frankford el (MFSE) with a 7 minute walk from the Erie-Torresdale station.
There was a bit of a lull in terms of passing NB trains between Metropark and Philly. At Metropark, the MARC consist that originated in Baltimore passed us, while at Philly, an Acela trainset went by. I don't remember the train numbers for either one. I have to say, it was quite cold out there, so I don't blame you for not waiting.
NJT ran 12 car trains and they were packed! i stood from MetroPark to NY Penn
NJT ran 12 car trains and they were packed! i stood from MetroPark to NY Penn
I tried to access it, and couldn't. Is the site down? Temporarily or permanently?
Right now. the name servers at Fatcow aren't giving a response for his domain.
Maybe he's having trouble with his service provider or is coanging providers.
(Picked up from the BMT Easterm vs. Southern thread.)
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
Given the caveats that LaGuardia and Moses wouldn't have been able to harass the hell out of the private companies. AND that the basic structures of the Dual Contracts and competition survived -- I can't speculate on the railroads, but minimally, based on history, I would expect the following:
The Brooklyn Loop System would have been completed (Brooklyn Bridge-Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street Tunnel). Ashland Place connection would be built. However, Brooklyn Bridge service would be perhaps half what it was in 1939.
The BMT would have gotten a west side subway up Central Park West and an east side subway to compete with the IRT, possibly also merging with the NYW&B.
The BMT would have gotten what is now the GG, partly elevated, and probably forming a loop in Manhattan with Broadway or the new east side line.
The only BMT els I see coming down (absent, of course a big City push agaisnt elevateds) is 5th/3rd south of 36th, probably the whole thing if the BMT got additional subway capacity in the area. And MAYBE the westernmost part of the Fulton L.
The BMT would have had a PCC fleet (Bluebirds or equivalent) as its elevated lines and compromise car. It would have incremnentally upgraded the elevated system as it went.
There would be trolley/light rail in Brooklyn, at least for the majot trunk lines.
But what would have happened to the Manhattan elevateds? I have to believe that at least the 6th Ave el would have been demolished because of real estate pressures, even without LaGuardia. If the 6th Ave. line was BMT, where would it branch from? The 60th St. tunnel? The west side lines? IMO, it would extend from the west side lines' turn onto 7th Ave., turn south onto 6th, then turn east on Canal, meeting with the tracks heading for the Manhattan Bridge. If the IRT had it's way, it would probably hang onto the 6th Ave el instead of investing in new infrastructure. If the BMT built an east side line, the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els would have been demolished.
I think the Manhattan Elevateds would have stayed IRT. The 6th Ave El would have been torn down the time it did. the other 3 would have stayed up longer. But by now MAYBE they would have been torn down. Then again maybe they would have been rebuilt.
The IND gave transit expansion in New York City one last push. Without it, nothing else would have been built in its place. The privates would have gone under in any event, though perhaps later. There wouldn't have been enough money to maintain all the Els.
My guess is the Second, Third and 6th Avenue Els would have come down anyway, along with 5th Avenue and Mytle Avenue. Fulton Street would have stayed, along with 9th Avenue. Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.
True, even with some of it's redundancy, the IND really did improve the system. Can you imagind Queens without the Queens Blvd line? Manhattan also greatly benefited from the IND. As much as I love els, and the railfan in me wishes they were still in Manhattan, Manhattan is much better off without them, with the exception of there really needing to be a second East Side line - but the 1st or 2nd Ave els were correctly removed, the line should be underground. They should have waited for it to be built though, before removing both of them. If one of those els were required to remain until a 2nd Ave subway was built, believe me, there would have been a second Ave subway long ago, just to get rid of the el. The push would have been much harder.
Anyway, back to the IND. Like I was saying, the IND did really improve the system, and we are better off for it. However, unfortunately, it could have been even better. The foolishness of the wasted money on the Fulton Subway and the Concourse line are the biggest mistakes. That's where our 2nd Ave subway, or better expansion in Brooklyn or Queens should have come from - that money. The Fulton El, and the Jerome El had no trouble serving the ares where the Fulton Subway and Concourse lines were built.
But let me throw this out, speaking of the Fulton Subway. What the hell would people have to talk about here at SubTalk if the Fulton Subway was never built - 76th Street wouldn't come up every other day.
but the 1st or 2nd Ave els were correctly removed
Sorry typo, 3rd or 2nd Ave els, not 1st Ave
>>> Sorry typo, 3rd or 2nd Ave els, not 1st Ave <<<
Was it the 1st Ave. El that had a station at 76th Street? :-)
Tom
Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.
Why do you assume the Queens Boulevard Line (or equivalent, or maybe more than one) wouldn't have been built without the IND.
My contention is that there would have been more and infrastructure built without the "go it alone" IND draining the City's Rapid Transit Debt allowance.
A problematic area is the fate of the IRT. There might have been some push at some time to have the BMT take over the IRT. This might have been a good thing, management-wise, not I don't believe in the diminution of comeptition.
************************
My server troubles yesterday cut off part of my original post. The additional post said:
The East River bridges would be in better shape than they are now, as the CIty would demand and get increased lease payments from the private companies, who for their part, would have made sure that they weren't allowed to deteriorate.
The BMT and IRT would both have vied for service to then-rural Queens. No prediction as to who would have gotten what where. Surely there would have been at least one additional East River tunnel.
The IRT's corporate culture would have exerted itself in attempting to thwart BMT plans somewhat to the detriment of their own growth.
I'm convinced the new East SIde Subway (2nd OR 3rd Avenue) would be built, IRT, if not BMT. The 2nd Avenue el would almost certainly come down. The 6th and 9th would stay, though the latter might be abandoned south of 53rd Street. This would benefit the IRT by eliminating a great deal of the drag the Manhattan Railways placed on their bottom line
(Subway service would be much worse than today, particularly in Queens.) (Why do you assume the Queens Boulevard Line (or equivalent, or maybe more than one) wouldn't have been built without the IND.)
By the time the latter stages of the IND were built, the auto and road era was well underway, having really gotten rolling in the 1920s. My belief is that the city's push to build the IND, and replace the Els, extended subway construction in New York by a couple of decades. What subway lines were built in other places in the 1930s and 1940s? Was it not the era of trolley companies going under and tracks being removed?
Later on, you had the federal money era, with the Washington Metro, BART, MARTA, etc. New York botched that one for sure.
No doubt, however, we'd be better off if the IND had been built as a compliment rather than a replacement. I still think the Fulton Street line was worth it, but the 6th Avenue line should have been built on Third Avenue -- the BMT Broadway line is right next to in in Midtown, and the 8th Avenue line is right next to it in the village. And the Concourse Line should have replaced the 3rd Avenue el, rather than running right next to the Jerome Avenue Line. Make those two changes to the IND, and we'd be much better served today.
Larry, The State St tunnel of Chicago was stared in the 30's as a Roosecelt WPA gig. Similar money I believe funded some IND construction. CTA then built the Dearborn tunnel and extended it to become the first median (Congress)subway opened June 1958 (in time for a primary election Richard J. Daley). In the early 50's Cleveland opened the 'Rapid' now the Red Line.
There might have been that would have run through northern Queens extanding from the Astoria Line. There also might have been a subway tunnel to Staten Island connecting with the SIRT.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the big thing would have been connecting up the crosstown lines -- L turning north on 8th, and none of that Dead Essex, the Nightmare on Chambers Street, and the Music Tunnels of 42nd. Was the "7" built after the IND? It would have been wide-body BMT and turned north and south, maybe on the far west side like City Hall would like it to now.
The 7 was built before the IND. Originally the Steinway Tubes were bult for trolley use, so the 7 would have been IND sized anyway, in order to use those tunnels.
Actually, other than the Steinway tubes, the 7 Line could handle IND/BMT sized cars. It was built to those specs. The stations of course would have to be shaved off, but the line itself can handle BMT clearances.
(Picked up from the BMT Easterm vs. Southern thread.)
But let's say the the City did allow the private interests (and let's add the LIRR , NYC, NYW&B and NYNHRR in the mix too) to increase fares to allow for expansion, I wonder what we would have now (talk about alternate universes!)
Given the caveats that LaGuardia and Moses wouldn't have been able to harass the hell out of the private companies. AND that the basic structures of the Dual Contracts and competition survived -- I can't speculate on the railroads, but minimally, based on history, I would expect the following:
The Brooklyn Loop System would have been completed (Brooklyn Bridge-Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street Tunnel). Ashland Place connection would be built. However, Brooklyn Bridge service would be perhaps half what it was in 1939.
The BMT would have gotten a west side subway up Central Park West and an east side subway to compete with the IRT, possibly also merging with the NYW&B.
The BMT would have gotten what is now the GG, partly elevated, and probably forming a loop in Manhattan with Broadway or the new east side line.
The only BMT els I see coming down (absent, of course
I'm still looking for someone who has the e-mail address or phone number for a regular eBay seller who goes by goodoletimes.
My browser will not let me connect with him.
Anyone have his info? He's out of White Plains, NY.
Clueless here, I've been wondering the same for awhile...
I used eBay's message service to ask him to contact you. a copy of that address is in your inbox.
I used eBay's message service to ask him to contact you. a copy of that REQUEST is in your inbox.
Make a temporary change in your browser settings to make it easier to get cookies. Once you do this, make the request for the e-mail address (if you're an e-bay registered user) then change your cookie setting back.
I've been having all kinds of problems with Optimum Online (cable modem) the last few days. A call to them gives the recorded message of "connectivity, home page and email problems."
I'm mentioning this particularly that if anyone's emailed me recently, even if I've gotten it, I haven't been able to succesfully send a reply.
Another fine product from the Dolan family
I've had no problems with Optimum at all in the several months we've had it. At least no functional problems - they tried billing us even though we had paid for a year's service ahead of time.
I've had it for well over a year and have had no problems. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for my cablevision TV reception.
They have instituted a new junk mail filter on 11/26 that might be effecting your email. You have to opt out of this new feature.
Call the general cablevision customer service number, ask for optimum online (don't hit buttons, wait for a human), then when yuo get that person ask for tech support. MAKE THEM transfer you to tech support, you'll get 2nd level that way.
Paul, the day I got my 'puter and connected to Optimum in Aug '01 I had problems with their email and Outlook Express. I already had a Hotmail account to backup my webtv and so just started using Hotmail exclusively. It has worked greatly and its free.
Jeffrey, the problem was with both in- and out-bound email. I also couldn't FTP at all. I think it may have just started working again.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Amazingly, I always have problems with my "paid" email account (which I rarely use because of that) and never have any problems with my hotmail account, which is free. Go figure.
Looks like Salaam needs to visit the Deutsch Bahn! Thats an ICE-T, the tilting version, their answer to the Acela. The ICE 3 apparantly also has a similar view, but the window is smaller.
By the way, thats from the The European Railway Picture Gallery's ICE
I thought this was an Ice-T:
:-)
Yeah, well I thought this was an Ice-T:
And while riding in this ICE train, if you're around the Karlsruhe area, you can witness the trolleys operating on the same tracks as you are! Never a problem in over 10 years! But our FRA says that's not possible. Of course, the chances are they've never visited Europe and seen the fantastic rail and transit systems that exist there. They put Western Hemisphere systems to shame.
That is truely amazing, somebody needs to tell the FRA about that, I'm sure they'd all have a collective heart attack!
Wow, strange yet true, an ICE 1 leaves:
And, right from the same tracks, a GT8-100D follows a bit later:
This is incredible, like having a R32 pull into the LIRR tracks at New York Penn , or, better, a Rt101/102 K-car pull into 30th St's Lower Platform, right in between an AEM7 and an Acela!
Not only that, but they manage to make it dual voltage, 750 DC overhead tram wire and Deutsch Bahn's 15 kV AC, 16 2/3 Hz. Oh, and now I see that they have a Bistro car! Can you actually eat while riding a tram around the city, or is it an advertizing gimmick for a local eatery?
I've seen them in Jan Bochmann's Bahn 3.80, and wondered why they were listed twice, under MUs, and under LRT equipment, but just wrote it off as a misprogram, never would I think that it was like this. I'm guessing, but Karlsruhe is down in a valley or canyon formed by the Rhine, right? Does that mean that there isn't the room for a segregated station for both the LRT and heavy rail?
Too bad that all ICEs through Karlsruhe are ICE 1s, it'd be fun to ride into the station and look like your ICE-3 or ICE-T was about to run down a GT-8!
Well, now at least I have another place on my list when I get out of this third world country (at least from our completely backward view on rail travel), and get an overseas internship, hopefully with a Eurail pass. But that's at least 3 years away.
Yes, there are Bistro cars on the Karlsruhe network, and you may enjoy eating and drinking. Some of the cars have panoramic sightseeing windows on ther roofs!
Karlsruhe is about 100 miles south of Frankfurt. If the jokers at the FRA could squeeze out a ticket to that city and then journey to Karlsruhe, yes, they'd have a heart attack - probably well-deserved!
A segregated station isn't of importance here. The trolleys stop not only in front of the Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof (main railway station) but inside of it! At the southen end of the station there's a tracks connection from the city trolley system to the national railway network (Deutsche Bahn). This is not the only connection of this type - there are others around the city where the two systems cross over each other. And Karklsruhe has the longest one way trolley ride - just over 3 hours one way! Of all the European sustems I've had the pleasure of visiting, this is by far #1. And to think the transit "con-sultants" haven't got the intelligence to even copy it over here. Perhaps there's not enough money in fees to earn from such a simple but workable system.
"And Karklsruhe has the longest one way trolley ride - just over 3 hours one way!"
Some time ago you asked the question on SubTalk, Joe, what was the longest trolley ride in the world, and I don't think you ever told us the answer. So have you finally got round to telling us now (8-) ? And how long is it in miles/kilometres?
Fytton
Maybe you guys are being a bit unfair on railway and submay administrations in the USA. Public officials have to operate within the law of their country. To operate trains and subways (or LRVs) on the same tracks in the USA (other than by time-segregation, as is proposed in Camden, NJ) would need a change in the law. How difficult/slow/expensive would it be to get that change? So you work with the law you have.
Incidentally, didn't streetcars once operate into (not just outside of) Stillwell Avenue station at one time? (I'm not saying the tracks linked up with the subway.)
>>> How difficult/slow/expensive would it be to get that change? <<<
The point was, no one is even suggesting that the law be changed. A certain inertia exists for the status quo. If no one even suggests a change, pointing out what the result would be if the law were changed, no change will occur.
Tom
And while riding in this ICE train, if you're around the Karlsruhe area, you can witness the trolleys operating on the same tracks as you are!
Atlantic City to Ocean City trolleys (the Shore Fast Line, "Short Line" on the Monopoly board) ran on the West Jersey and Seashore (subsidiary of PRR) between Pleasantville and Somers Point. The motormen had to be engineers.
Where in the 59 st station is the redbird trip going to leave from?
Here's the entire routing:
Redbird Excursion Routing 12/8/02
0930 - Board at middle platform - 59 St-Columbus Circle
Proceed south via A line to Pitkin Yard, relay and then operate to Rockaway Park. Return north via A line to Jay St, cross to B2 Track. B2 track to north of W. 4th St, relay, operate south via B1 Track to south of B'way/Lafayette, then cross to BJ1/J1 Tracks and proceed via J and L lines to Rockaway Parkway. LUNCH BREAK.
Proceed north to north of B'way Junction, relay, and operate via Q1/P1 Tracks to north of Atlantic Ave. Change ends, operate AGAINST THE NORMAL DIRECTION OF TRAFFIC via JA1/J1 Tracks to B'way Junction, then north via J line to 111 St and relay.
Then proceed south via J line to J3/4 Track at B'way/Myrtle, then north via M line to Metropolitan Ave. Then south via M and J lines to Chambers St, where guests will disembark.
what cars will the train consist of?
Should be a mix of R-29 'birds with two single R-33's on either end (for regulation B-Division safety trip valves).
what will the rollsigns be?
I meant
Will the roll signs be from the A division or will B division rollsigns be put into the cars?
Nah nah, I'm sure the regular rollsigns will be kept, but Rollsign Fun (TM) amongst the railfans will occur.
would a BMT standard rollsign fit, and how hard would it be to put in?
BMT standard roll signs were printed on both sides, much the same as the R-1/9 side route curtains. Redbird curtains are printed on one side only and alternate between two small-font and two large-font signs. They are staggered in such a way so that one small-font and one large-font sign will line up in the interior and exterior slots. If you don't set them properly, one or both signs will be upside down.
What I'm getting at is that a BMT standard route curtain would not be compatible with the mechanisms found on the Redbirds.
We actually had BMT signs on the train, including the 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and QJ trains...I have a few photos...
Carlton e-mail: carlwal@hotmail.com
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
I'm glad it went so well and that everyone seemed to have a good time.
NYD-ERA runs several trips a year to various places. Come with us!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I hope a railfan brings a B-divsions rollsigns with leter & destination markings for the B-division only.
No necessary....see my other posting on this...
would my BMT Btype rollsign fit?
hey how many of us are going on the redbird trip?
hey how many of us are going on the redbird trip?
Azn: Well as of right now its you and me.
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'm going to.
I'll be in attendance as well with a relative and a friend.
-Stef
Hey, Stef: how were you able to fanagal the day off???
I found ways. I saved my birthday (10/30) as a holiday and requested 12/8. Got it. Veterans Day was also saved, and will be taking the day off on 12/9. I will have a four day weekend, which is quite rare for me.
-Stef
I will be there also with my #7 hat. Out of loyalty to the cars of my "yout" I will sit in either R-33WF car.
It appears from a previous post that lunch will be in Carnarsie.
Also wonder if a quick discharge stop can be made at Essex street so for those of us who want to head north. Would save me time getting back to Penn Station.
[Also wonder if a quick discharge stop can be made at Essex street so for those of us who want to head north. Would save me time getting back to Penn Station.]
I believe that stops at both Essex Street and Canal Street will be made, making it as convenient as possible for all to get home. Listen for the announcements over the train PA system to be certain.
I got my tickets..And armed with my camera :)
Don't forget me!
This is my first official railfan trip, and there's one bit I don't quite understand: will there be 145 railfans clamoring for the railfan window and five empty cars?
Wrong David----Some will sit and enjoy the view especially on the way to the Rockaways..........I'll let the other 144 stay in the front window and look out the back because when they change ends........
..........I'll let the other 144 stay in the front window and look out the back because when they change ends........
Alan: I hope your referring to the train and not the railfans...
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
There is always the last car, not the best place to be but a decent "alternate" railfan window will just do for those who want to improvise and see what just got past them.
Nothing wrong with the rear railfan window, except in tunnels it is darker because of no headlights (not like the headlights help that much anyhow).
--Brian
I will be there.
--Mark
I'll be there....... I have to be.....If I'm not, Who will open the doors to let you all on???? See you on Sunday!!!
-Mark
Mr. Conductor? Oh my, can I be one too?!?
I promise to be a good little boy.
-Stef
Yeah, Stef, but it's your day to FOAM!!! :)
Hey Doug, do you still have any of those "No Foaming" signs?:)
Mark, you're qualified for IRT equipment?
-Stef
How did you get so lucky to work on the fan trip?? Anyway enjoy I'll be working on the #5 Line Redbirds Sunday.
He's got friends in high places...LOL! :)
Sending another message, this is my first fan trip and I will have my camera ready. See you on the Nine Thirty from five-nine. Does this mean we will never hear the end of it from Fred since we will not be on his Sea-Beach line?
Nah, Fred got the thrill of a lifetime last spring on that Triplex train. It ran nonstop along the Sea Beach open cut and Fred was wearing a silly grin the whole time.:)
And did Fred wore a blue chain with the letters NX on it during the D-Type Triplex trip?
I don't believe so. Can't say for sure because I wasn't there.
Even if he did, it would have been obscured by the foam. Fortunately I had a change of clothes with me :)
--Mark
Well now we don't want this trip on Subway to be hampered by a "person in need of medical assistance" a.k.a. "sick passenger" because Fred was foaming
So far, a little over 130 people have paid, some of whom (including yours truly) are SubTalkers.
The trip hasn't broken even yet, but it's definitely running, so if you're waffling about going, waffle no longer -- send $55 to NYD-ERA (look in the "Upcoming Events" section of nycsubway.org for the address and other information) and you're in!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Barring unforeseen circumstances, I'll be going also.
I can't make it, I got to work that day :(
Not going either-honestly I think it's a bit too much money to go.
Sorry. If I do go, I'll go somewhere to get a pic or 2 of it.
Otherwise I'm a no-go.
I ride Redbirds every single day to and from work. I don't think this trip is necessary for me.
Maybe next time?
#9327 7 Flushing Local
Ditto,
Well, no work that day, however a physics final the next day, along with 2 more finals later in the week will have me pretty well tied down. :(
If only you guys could have planned one week later, I'd be completely free. As it is, I'll have to make my own Railfan trips up there over my winter break. Anybody know if R32s or R38s head out to the Rockaways on A trains? Just wanna get a RFW from somewhere up north to Far Rock or Rockaway Park.
Thanks
The R-32's, R-38's, and R-44's on the A run on both the Lefferts and Far Rockaway branches.
The Rock Park specials (and shuttles) are R-44's.
Not to bust your chops, but this is an IRT Train, not IND/BMT. Who wants to stick BMT signs on a train that never ran there in regular service?
-Stef
It's only a special occasion for railfans only.
Yes, I suppose you're right. R-30 brings up something interesting to think about. In 1991, Corona Yard R-36s were assigned to refuse service on the IRT mainline for a few months until the R-127 work motors arrived on the scene. There was one R-36 car that had a B Division rollsign! I can't recall which car that was, but the signage had letter routes, not numbers. Very strange....
-Stef
Do u have a picture of that train? I'll would like to see that. And why did it that R36 had B division signs on it? Where did u see it at?
Sorry, I don't have pictures. I saw that R-36 in 1991, at Jackson Av on the 2/5. It was assigned to work service temporarily. As to why the R-36 had the sign is unknown at this point. Perhaps, it was meant to be a joke among operating crews.
-Stef
Rollsigns will most likely read 'S' (for Special) or 'No Passengers'.
I love this trip!!!!
Oh yea!!!
The sounds of a Station Agent foaming at the mouth...
-Stef
Alex,
Are they working on the ENY Yard Lead (Y4)?
-Stef
Proceed south via A line to Pitkin Yard, relay...
You mean we're gonna see 76th Street? (duck, run :)
--Mark
Not according to NYC Transit. The consist will be six R-33 singles...should be great for rail"fan"ning!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Since the six car train will be traveling on the B division (IND/BMT) it will depart from the IND lower level platform. See you there on the 8th (too bad we won't be going on my favorite line, the Brighton because there is a G.o. at Atlantic Ave station. The contractor is in the process of laying the foundation for the new ADA elevator and to finish up the yellow tactile warning strip.)
We went through 76th st!
The tiles are bright white, with a purple stripe
Sure you're not getting confused with the stops before Euclid? (The purple pattern ends at Euclid.) The color band at 76th wasn't purple: it was white -- shiny, gleaming white. (We went through pretty fast on the express track -- maybe you just didn't get a good view.)
The color band at 76th wasn't purple: it was white -- shiny, gleaming white.
Just like the walls of the hospital corridors and the coats of those nice men who brought you that comfortable straitjacket :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the fantrip went to Creedmore.
No, the tracks to Creedmore were removed about 30 years ago.
I think he was playing on the Creedmore "mentally" insane aspect of the scenario.
David: It was a fast ride but I did notice the Memorial Plaque to Judge Crater. It certainly was a fantrip not to be repeated. BTW who in blazes mooned us at Williamsburg Plaza.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Heh, we got a few Bronx cheers leaving Crescent Street by some natives who insisted this train was in service.
And to all doubters about the 76th Street portion of the trip, I haven't played my video back, but I know I have the portal from Pitkin Yard clearly visible. I remember seeing a four car train of R-46s doing a yard move into 76th Street in a rail shining operation just prior to our leaving. So BELIEVE.
--Mark
You've got a lot of doubting Thomases to contend with.:)
Yeah, well if the Georges and the Harrys and the Ethels believe, it's a majority :)
--Mark
Don't forget Lucy, Ricky, and Fred (Mertz).:)
I did find a German website that showed a route for the Fulton Street Line after Euclid Ave. Like I've said 2 tracks go to Pitkin Yard. 2 tracks go to Grant Ave and 4 tracks continue along. It doesn't say the next stop would have been 76 Street. But it shows the route going in that direction and beyond. The map is on this website:
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/ind1.htm
The map is about 3/4 the way down. The entire site is in German. I was able to get an English translation. However the translation did not entend all the way down the page
You do remember that ALL trains that go to 76th Street also stop at Willowby. It's in the 1923 Rules and Regulations for Train Operation on the Independent.
As we entered Pitkin Yard, I was wondering why we were laid over for so long, watching a couple of R-44's pass us by. Of course now knowing the surprise that followed, I can honestly say it was worth the wait. Those white tiles certainly would do a recently overhauled station justice!
Regards,
Mark Valera
Starting next Friday night (12/6 and continuing through the weekend, the following GO will be running:
Tracks A3 and A4 out of service from north of Prospect Park to north of Atlantic Ave.
Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended.
R and W will operate normal or as per other GOs.
N will terminate on F4 Track northbound at 36 St, relay, and go into service on F1 Track southbound at 36 St, operating LOCAL from 36 to 59 southbound only.
Q will operate in TWO sections.
Section 1 - Brighton Beach to Prospect Park. Will terminate on A4 Track, relay south of Prospect Park and go into service southbound from A3 Track.
Section 2 - 57/7 to Pacific St. Will operate normal from 57/7 to DeKalb, then accept diverging lineup at X96 and X4, terminating on F3 Track at Pacific St southbound.
Northbound service will originate on F3 Track at Pacific St, cross to F2 Track north of Pacific St, then cross to A4 track south of DeKalb Ave and operate normal to 57/7.
How will people get from Pacific/Atlantic to Prospect Park and vice versa? Shuttle bus? And also, what does double ended mean when you say the FS is double ended?
Train Operator on each end of the train.
-Stef
Last time they terminated Q's at the Park they didn't double end the shuttle or even increase its headways even though the GO orginaly called for it.
Sounds like people might be urge to use the IRT(#4 train) from Atlantic to Franklin and transfer to the Franklin Shuttle to Prospect Park. Or if theres no shuttle bus, then they might use the B41 bus upstairs at Atlantic. I remember the last the GO was in effect, Franklin Ave (IRT) was unusually crowded that weekend.
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
Shuttle bus on street level or FS to Botanic Garden, then 2, 3, or 4 to Atlantic Ave.
Why not merge the Q and N into one line for the weekend (57/7 to 86 via Sea Beach)? Or did that prove too confusing the last time it was done (on the West End)?
That was the weekend from hell. The ONLY train running in the South was the Q (and the shuttles, but they don't really count).
I seem to recall a number of weekends when the Q ran both ways on the West End and N service was normal. There was only one weekend (IIRC) when the Q substituted for both the W and the N.
That still doesn't beat that other weekend (two weeks later, I think) when the N ran down the Sea Beach and back up the Brighton express.
I'm surprised they didn't try running the Q down the N to 86th St for the weekend. Hope they won't have any bottlenecks as a result!
-Stef
What are the signs on the Q going to say? Atlantic isn't in the bottom roll, is it?
Yes it is since it was used on the W when it ended there every weekend untill 9/8/02.
That was the top roll sign - northern terminals. I don't know if the Atlantic Ave-Pacific St is on the lower roll for southern terminals.
Guess what I saw on a southbound R Train today while on northbound Q somewhere between Canal and 34th Street (Don't remember exactly).
This was a R-44 with the electronic signs, but the front bullet was
R Diamond --- BUT BROWN DIAMOND.
Any chance of seeing the Chambers Street R reappear????
an R44 on the R line,i thoght they were only on the A,and a diamond R
cool,but is that the only R44 on another or are there more.
til next time
WHAT??! Now that's really something, a R diamond sign hasn't been seen since 1986-1987. The Nassau special R's had brown rollsigns? And BTW, the R runs R46's not R44's.
I saw that sign before, but I don't quite remember the car number...I think 55xx or 56xx..
Carlton
Cleanairbus
The one that was out on Sunday was 6186, because I saw it at Pacific Southbound while waiting to leave with my N.
I'm still awaiting a convincing explanation for the brown N I first saw on 10/28/01, the first day N service was restored after the 9/11 reroutes.
I think I saw that as well, can't explain that. Now the N with a BROWN bullet is beyond me, maybe the yellow got so dirty it 'mutated' into the brown color or the length of it hasn't been used. Maybe its a rollsign prior to the GOH and it didn't get replaced, could be anything...........
The only thing I can say was a possible Sea Beach to Chambers/Nassau train, that was never implemented. Anything other than that, or further north than Chambers, I would assume would not be called a N. For example, a rush hour or other service extension; a Jamaica to Sea Beach train is just an extension of the J, and would probably be called "J" (or "Z"). And even if they did a Metropolitan to Sea Beach train, it would be the M, or if the M was still on West End, I would assume they would call it some other letter to avoid total confusion by calling it "N".
My guess is, it was just a thought as a possible train that would have run like the R that used to run to Chambers. But anything is possible.
BTW, does anyone know of any other brown letters on the rollsigns besides J, M, Z, R, and the crazy brown N (which I know exists, because I saw the photo).
That isn't brown; it's the old yellow, which was reddened to make a white letter visible. There was a circle "R" like that on an R-46, and there are also "B"s like that.
I don't know why they didn't simply use a dark yellow like C0C000 instead of adding more red which changes the hue altogether.
That's not yellow. It's brown or possibly orange.
It's yellow-orange (and comes up a bit brownish in the picture), but is still more orange than what is used for 6th Av. It was apparently an attempt to use white letters with yellow (probably to more easily standardize the printing process). It was done on a Metrocard stations list right before it was in all stations. The NR bullets used the orange normally used for 6th av. while BDFQ used a deeper reddish-orange.
So you think that rollsign is a relatively recent one, from the mid-90's? Interesting.
It's yellow-orange (and comes up a bit brownish in the picture), but is still more yellow than what is used for 6th Av. It was apparently an attempt to use white letters with yellow (probably to more easily standardize the printing process). It was done on a Metrocard stations list right before it was in all stations. The NR bullets used the orange normally used for 6th av. while BDFQ used a deeper reddish-orange.
That's probably #4320 and that's a GOLD "N" not a brown one. A handful of Slants are wearing white-letter "N" signs.
wayne
Looks like a pre GOH roll sign is still there since the N & R bullets were a darker yellow and had white letters on R32 rollsigns & other car classes. Did the yellow start to fade or was there a special N that may never have came to light?
That's what everyone says, but I saw it with my own eyes. It was brown, as brown as the M. If it doesn't look that way in the photo I posted, it's because of inaccurate color representation in whatever film I was using or in the scanning process.
I don't remember the car number offhand.
Since you saw it with your own eye then I believed u, it must be the film or your scanner that didn't presented the accurate color of the whole image. I remember I had that confrontation you on this topic on other railfan message board site. What was name of site?
I believed that N was light brown or dark yellow near orange.
I remember when N trains used to run to Forest Hills in the early 80's, R46's assigned to N service always had that kind of dark yellow with the white N. Pre GOH R32's had similar roll signs for both N and R bullets.
As for the brown diamond R, it was used between 1985 and 1987. It replaced the original yellow diamond R for service to Chambers. My guess is that they changed the diamond to brown because maybe 4 Ave riders may have gotten confused between Broadway and Nassau St R trains. You know how commuters can be.
The Brown "R" bullet diamond was a leftover from the Chambers Street "Bankers Special" trains. Someone at Jamaica likely didn't turn the curtain to the correct yellow R bullet, since the consist maybe came from a "F" or a "G" lash-up.
Any chance of seeing the Chambers Street R reappear????
Nope! Sleep over it! Cause that aint gonna happen.
The November Subtalk report is in!
12,123 messages were posted.
TOP 10 POSTERS:
SelkirkTMO 880 7.26%
GP38 Chris 530 4.37%
Steve B-8AVEXP 411 3.39%
David J. Greenberger 338 2.79%
RonInBayside 333 2.75%
#4 Sea Beach Fred 299 2.47%
Peter Rosa 232 1.91%
AlM 231 1.90% TIED
JohnS 231 1.90% TIED
Paul Matus 228 1.88%
30.63% of posts were made by 2.78% of posters
55 people posted only once
39 people posted twice
24 people posted thrice
196 people posted 10 times or less. This accounts for 54.44% of the population
SelkirkTMO (this month's most prolific poster award wiener) posted more messages than the bottom 209 Subtalkers, 58.06% of the population.
The top 10 posters posted as many posts combined as the 309 lowest posters (there were 360 posters total).
The average poster made 33.675 posts
The median number of posts made by a single individual was 8
50% of all posts were posted by the top 24 posters and by the bottom 336 of posters.
Neato. Thanks for the stats.
Damit, I didn't even place this time. What's a guy gotta do?
And I just found out that I lost be ONE MEASLEY POST. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
>>> And I just found out that I lost be ONE MEASLEY POST. <<<
And what did you lose? If your greatest goal in life is being a prolific Sub Talk poster, you really need to get a life. Please spare us from trolls and similar useless posts for which you were at one time (long ago) notorious .
Tom
When I saw the subject line, I thought the message had been posted by a girl aged 12 or so, if you catch my drift.
Which city has the best-looking small subway cars (under 60') in their fleet?
1)MBTA Blue Line Hawker-Siddely
2)NYCTA R-142
3)CTA 3200's
4)SEPTA M-4 MFSE
5)NYCTA R-62
6)PATH PA 1
7)SEPTA M-3 (Almond Joys)
8)CTA 2400's
9)PATH PA-3
10)CTA 2200's
11)CTA 2600's
12)NYCTA R-33/36 (World's Fair)
13)CTA 2000's
14)NYCTA R-28/33 Mainline (Redbirds)
All cars cited were built 1960 to present.
14)NYCTA R-28/33 Mainline (Redbirds)
--Brian
Second.
NYCTA R-62/62A.
Wayne
SEPTA M4 MFSE...fast, comfortable, and relatively new. Their acceleration and braking between stations is amazing, and they have the best railfan window, with a row of seats right behind it facing the window.
Please have your dad e-mail in re: scanner frequencies for FDNY
I like the sentimental favorite, the Redbirds, of course, BUT my all-time favorites aren't in regular service any more:
1) PATH Class K/MP-51 (1958)
2) NYCT R-15 (1950)
3) NYCT R-21 (1957)
4) NYCT Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-V (1938)
Out of today's crop, I simply DETEST the Vultures (R-142/142A), but find the R62A singles with the railfan window to be quite appealing.
wayne
My all-time favorites of these small guys are the R-33/36 World's Fair, especially the singles.
I like the look of the CTA 2000s, kinda like an R40 Slant, but a bit neater, perhaps what the Slant would have looked like if done correctly. Sadly, despite having lived there for 4 years, I have never ridden the Chicago El, and missed my chance to see the 2000s in regular service. I also always wanted to see the 3200s with the Pantographs on the Skokie Swift, but I'd better hurry, cause it sounds like Skokie finally eased it's restrictions on third rail, and soon the Skokie Swift will go the way of the Electroliner.
I was gonna vote for the M-4, but I hate the automated announcements and bing-bong when the doors close, after getting off a bell-ringing PATCO car, the last thing I want to hear is some computerized voice reminding me to watch the closing doors followed by some annoying electronic gonging. I've found it especially bad between 2nd and 15th, where the MSFE stops every friggin 3 blocks (2nd; 5th; 8th; 11th; 13th; 15th; ugh), sometimes less, and the announcements come practically on top of each other, no sooner has it finished "...ing doors." then it has to start up with the next station stuff. At least theres a break on the 'express' run between 15th and 30th St to recover, before another onslaught once clear of the Schuylkill and the 'Local' Sub-Surface trolleys.
BTW: Did the Skokie Swift ever provide a one seat ride to downtown Chicago, or did you always have to change at Howard to a Purple or Red train?
Skokie Swift was always Dempster to Howard; you'd have to change at Howard for Red or Purple service.
OH Yes - the late-model PCCs (were they mid 60s?) car #1-#51.
and don't forget the erstwhile CCC 4000's. THOSE were unique!
wayne
AFAIK cars 1-50 were singles used on the Evanston line. They were built at the same time as the rest of the 6000s, and used parts cannibalized from Green Hornet streetcars. They could and did run in trains; I saw a few Evanston Express trains with singles and married pair 6000s intermixed.
The 4000s were heavyweight (for Chicago, anyway) all-steel cars. At 38 tons apiece, they weighed about the same as the R-series IRT cars.
I rode on the 2000s a few times when they ran on what is now the Red line. Frankly, I thought they weren't as loud in the State St. subway as the 6000s or even the 2600s. Perhaps the 2000s were better insulated. Their blinker doors were very quiet. Ditto for the doors on the 2200s. The doors on the 6000s were a bit on the loud side.
Here's one for you: I saw a solid 6-car train of 2000s on the Red line in August of 1991. That was as surprising as that solid 8-car train of 2200s I spotted leaving O'Hare on the Blue line in 1997 or 1998.
This answer may be biased, considering where I live, but my choice is the SEPTA M-4 cars. However the car type that comes in a strong second is the PATH cars (both 1 AND 3). Hopefully, I will make a trip to Chicago to get a ride on the CTA in 2003, and to Boston to ride the T.
#12, the R33/R36 WF are the best looking cars under 60' with the original blue paint aka Bluebirds, man they were just fabulous in that scheme but I love them in the Redbirds scheme also, soon another set of cars with quality to be gone into the sunset & into history :-(
For those interested, I have the latest car/fleet assignment matrix available. It's MS Excel 2000 format (about 50Kb). The numbers are verified as of 12/01/02. As usual, I'll send it to any that request it by E-mail. (Include your Subtalk Handle so I can update my mail-list)
Crain's Business New York wrote the following in last week's magazine:
Do you think it will ever happen? It seems too easy...it probably won't get built.
--Brian
I read somewhere a reason why the PATH doesn't go further than Newark is because a bridge wasn't built after the station. It was probably about 1/4 mile after the station since PATH uses some trackage to turn trains. If the bridge was built the route would continue in the general direction of Newark Airport. Some construction would have to be done to actually have it go to the airport.
It wouldn't actually be a one-seat ride. Passengers would still have to transfer to the airport monorail at the NJT/Amtrak station. Basically, I see this plan as yet another grasping-at-straws idea to help lower Manhattan, not unlike the "Brookfield" LIRR plan.
What do you think this is, Cleveland? New York/Newark is too big to be bothered with little things like transit to the airports.
-- Ed Sachs
No, it's much more sensible than the Brookfield idea. The NJT train service from Newark Airport station to NY Penn is not frequent enough to be really convenient. If the PATH could be extended from Newark Penn to Newark Airport without undue expense, it would be a real net gain, since there would be frequent service from the airport to Manhattan - unlike the Brookfield idea, no-one else would have to *lose* a service to enable the airport users to gain one. (O.K., the PATH would get more crowded. But no subway service is evicted from its tunnel.)
So far as airports are concerned, the concept of a one-seat ride is fuzzy anyway. You can ride the Airtrain from various stations throughout Newark Airport to the train station (which happens to be off the airport and across a highway). If the Airport train station was inside one of the airport terminals, users from the other terminals would still have to use the Airtrain to reach it: the majority still wouldn't have a one-seat ride. Different airports have different arrangements - some have internal transit trains, some have moving walkways, some make you walk miles through corridors. Which is better - a "one-seat ride" to downtown that follows a half-mile walk through the airport, or an Airtrain ride to a transfer point?
Why the blanket assumption that an airport circulator can't possibly be integrated into the broader transit system?
I don't know if the Newark system could possibly accomodate PATH trains (it obviously couldn't in its current incarnation as a monorail, but are the curves and such compatible with PATH?). The JFK system could have easily accomodated an extension/branch of the A train -- the AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A -- but the Port Authority didn't feel like allowing for such an arrangement.
Just look at the Piccadilly line, which has two airport stations.
I don't know if the Newark system could possibly accomodate PATH trains (it obviously couldn't in its current incarnation as a monorail, but are the curves and such compatible with PATH?). The JFK system could have easily accomodated an extension/branch of the A train -- the AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A -- but the Port Authority didn't feel like allowing for such an arrangement.
It's been a while since I was last on the EWR monorail, but from what I recall the curves weren't too bad.
"Why the blanket assumption that an airport circulator can't possibly be integrated into the broader transit system?"
...
"Just look at the Piccadilly line, which has two airport stations."
It depends on the airport design.
Heathrow Terminal 4 is a major distance away from Terminals 1-3, which are clustered. More like LGA's Marine Terminal. At JFK and Newark, each terminal is enough of a walk from the next that walking is a pain if possible at all, but a full fledged subway ride would be overkill.
Also, at Heathrow, the walk from Terminal 1, 2, or 3 to the Undeground station is considerable. There would have been some real advantage to a smaller scale system between terminals.
Mmm - but the Piccadilly Line "Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3" station (nee Heathrow Central) is a long walk through a tunnel from Terminal 3, partially helped by moving pavements. If you get the Heathrow Express, the reverse applies - the station is at Terminal 3, so Terminals 1 & 2 customers get the long walk. At Gatwick, the airport station is at the South Terminal; if your flight is from the North Terminal you have to use the internal transit train within the airport. At Stansted the station is at the main terminal, but the gate areas are linked to the main terminal/check-in area by internal transit trains. At Luton the airport station is off the airport altogether, and linked by a free shuttle bus, rather like Howard Beach (but the connecting commuter train service is more frequent than the A line at Howard Beach!). Not sure what the arrangement at London City Aiport with the Docklands LR is going to be - when it opens, I'll go and look.
At least London's airports *are* all rail-linked....
but the Piccadilly Line "Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3" station (nee Heathrow Central) is a long walk through a tunnel from Terminal 3
Better than Barcelona - a walk across the airport car parks to get to the station.
Yes, Piccadilly Line indeed has two stations, but it's an hour to Piccadilly Circus, stopping at every little hamlet along the way (except for the brief express run), much better solution is the £12 Heathrow Express to Paddington, which reaches speeds of 100MPH+.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Piccadilly Line, and its picturesque stations, just that it takes forever and a day to get to downtown, whereas the Heathrow Express takes, what, about 15 minutes. Can't beat that.
wayne
The plan (which dates back to 1972 then know as the Plainfield corridor route) envisions either service to the EWR rail station or right into the Terminal area itself.
The strange thing is that the original pland from 1972 had a EWR rail station being built near Mclellan street where passengers would transfer to a airport Monorail.
The EWR Airtrain is more of a one seat ride than most one seat rides like DCA's Metro or the new JFK Airtrain (when it opens).
The EWR rail station is about 1/2 mile (or less) from Terminal C at EWR, Terminal C is home to Continental Airlines and is the busiest carrier at EWR.
The Airtrain takes you from the rail station directly into the Terminals themselves, when you come down off the Airtrain escalators at one of the Terminals you are right in front of the gate screening area.
It takes about 4-5 minutes to travel from the EWR rail station to Terminal C, which is quicker than walking from your car into the terminal.
I wish there was a way to extend PATH to Elizabeth, near where the Northeast Corridor's stop is located. The most annoying passengers on the Corridor enter or exit at Broad Street Elizabeth Station.
Slight correction: The NEC station is "Elizabeth" (to differentiate from North Elizabeth and the no longer in existence South Elizabeth); Broad Street, Elizabeth refers to the not in use CNJ station downstairs.
PATH extentions have been proposed using the CNJ ROW for years including going all the way to Plainfield. The last serious proposal many years ago never got anywhere possibly because the suburban towns along the ROW feared inner city youths would have too easy access to their towns. There also has been talk more recently (without funding) for a light rail line from Plainfield through Elizabeth, Jersey Gardens Mall, the Manhattan Ferry (which doesn't exist yet), IKEA, and on to Newark Airport.
Even though the official name of the NEC station in downtown Elizabeth is "Elizabeth" as you pointed out, 99% of the trainmen announce it as "Broad Street, Elizabeth". This is to avoid confusion with North Elizabeth, especially since a large number of customers from that area don't speak or understand English quite well.
I never understood that proposal of PATH being extended to Plainfield. I don't have exact numbers, and I'm probably exaggerating, but there are probably more passengers who get on or off at Elizabeth each day then if you add up the passengers at Roselle Park, Cranford, and Plainfield COMBINED!! That's why a high capacity line with frequent service (every 5-10 minutes) would make sense at Elizabeth. The platform there is NEVER empty!
To defend you further: The NEC station has an exit ont he NY boudn platform to "Broad Street:.
It is at Broad Street, but it never has been the "Broad Street Station." Show me in a timetable where it is listed as such. The CNJ was.
PATH to "Broad St, Elizabeth sounds like a cool plan. I'd rather pay $1.50 per trip over the $7 round trip only good during off-peak. Maybe the run can loop over to Union by Kean University, then east on Morris Ave to the Elizabeth Station.
how about up the rawhway valley line to summit. the nimbys would have a fun with that plan
Are there any left and what line I be in NYC in 2 weeks
Ohh.. You mean REDBIRDS.. That we have.
..[Mostly on the 7]-[Some on the 5]-[Limited on the 4]<..
I presume.
The 7 is about three-quarters Redbirds, 5 is 50/50
the 2, 3, & 6 have limited stocks.
The 2, 3 & 6 is Redbird free, however a Redbird or 2 does occasionally run on the 2 [maybe the 3] but it would be a better chance that you will see it on a weekend. BTW, the limited stocks is on the 4 & 5.
Never, absolutely never, on the 3. The 3 has been R-62A-only since the 80's, without exception.
The occasional (rare) Redbird 2's are usually on weekdays, borrowed from the 5. Weekend service has fewer Redbirds total, and it's hard for the 2 to borrow a train from the 5 in Brooklyn on a weekend since the 5 doesn't go to Brooklyn on weekends (though, if necessary, a 5 train at Bowling Green could loop through South Ferry and go into 2 service at Chambers).
There are also occasional R-62A 2's now. I saw one in June and another in September. (Both were bona fide 2's, not mislabeled 3's or 1's.)
I might have seen an R-33 or an R-36 WF on the 3 some time ago,
but I am not sure.
I know I saw a Redbird 3 in the past before, I saw it in a pic at 148 St WITH 3 train rollsigns but if it was in service is unknown. I don't think it was a R33/R36 WF it looked like a R33 mainline but I am not too sure
The 7 is about three-quarters Redbirds, 5 is 50/50
the 2, 3, 4, & 6 have limited stocks.
Hate to say it but those numbers aren't as high. I only saw 1 set of Redbirds outside rush hour on the 5 and no more than 10 total. The 2 doesn't get any on a regular basis, the 3 never does, the 4 had at least one set for now, and the 6 doesn't have any. The number of Redbirds on the 7 is now probably closer to 60 percent.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
***************************************************
Amtrak said last week that it has countersued the Canadian-French consortium that built the trouble-plagued Acela Express trains for its premium Northeast Corridor services, asking for more than $200 million in damages.
The lawsuit comes almost exactly one year after one member of the consortium – Bombardier Inc. of Montreal – filed a $200 million suit against Amtrak, charging that the national passenger railroad refused to pay for cost overruns caused by Amtrak's indecision and failure to live up to the contract, according to the Washington Post.
Amtrak's motion to dismiss the Bombardier suit was denied September 30. It is appealing. Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black said on November 21 in Washington that Amtrak had to countersue by Wednesday, the day the suit was actually filed, or lose the right to do so.
Amtrak's countersuit included no major issues that have not already been aired in public. It said all the train sets were delivered at least a year late, some more than two years late. The suit also said the trains have failed to meet operating-performance targets included in the contract, costing Amtrak millions of dollars in revenue and inconveniencing its customers.
It also contends that Bombardier's original suit broke the contract because the consortium had promised to submit any disputes to arbitration.
Amtrak President David L. Gunn said in a statement that Amtrak will continue to work closely with Bombardier and its partner, Alstom, to solve the Acela's operational problems, but "we must exercise our fiduciary responsibility and seek damages for the extensive delays in delivery and the service problems that are the responsibility of the manufacturer."
Bombardier spokeswoman Carol Sharpe said Bombardier welcomes the Amtrak action because "it's one more step in the resolution of the issue."
Sharpe said the company still thinks its claim is strong, but "we are hopeful we'll come to a settlement" before the suit ever comes to trial. She said some talks between Amtrak and the consortium are continuing. "It's time to get this behind us," she said.
The Acelas, capable of running at 150 mph, have sustained mechanical problems that have led to frequent service delays and cancellations since their introduction in December 2000.
The latest problem, cracks in the yaw damper mounts, caused all Acela trainsets to be pulled out of service for several days along with 15 high-horsepower locomotives (the HHP-8s) that were part of the same order also were pulled out of service.
After a temporary fix was devised, most of the trains returned to service. Of the 20 train sets originally ordered, 12 are in regular service, three are being held in reserve, four are in the shop for maintenance or repairs, and Amtrak has not accepted one for service. All 15 high-horsepower locomotives are back in service.
Bombardier is a shitty car builder, put it like that, the best thing they ever did was produce the R62A's. Look at the AirTrain disaster, the constant breakdowns of R142A's[they're improving] and the Acelas developig stress cracks so early in its career. NYCT should sue them as well for bringing faulty crap in the past.
Remember: R142A Built by Kawasaki = Reliable....... R142 Built by Bombardier= PIece of shit that should have never touched NYCT rails.
My mistake, I thought the Kawasaki R142's were the main car holder. The rest of the entire 142 order should be built by Kawasaki, NYCT should just sever ties with 'Bombadier', they are a money hungry car builder & the MTA should take some fault for paying nearly $1 billion for subway cars that break down more than Kawasaki. Even though the R62A's were successful & saved the MTA from getting the short end of the stick by Kawasaki in 1985-1986, the MDBF now shows a disparity THERE TOO! Its interesting how 2 companies making nearly identical cars have different characteristics, like breakdowns/malfunctions.
Many, many transit systems throughout the world use Bombardier trains and do not have problems. Toronto's oldest Bombardier T1's have been running for 6 years now without a problem. Ottawa's Bombardier Talent O-Trains are one year old and being put through the punishment of running on an old decrepit frieght line that they weren't designed for, and not one problem surfaced there either. Boston's new trains have been running without problems as well, and so have London's Bombardier vehicles. I can go into many more, but I don't want to ramble...
Now I know that NYC's subway cars are built in (by order of New York State) Plattsburgh, instead of the much better-equipped Thunder Bay plant where Toronto's cars are built, so I think that plays a big factor. As for the Acelas, I read in the article how Bombardier charged that Amtrak "refused to pay for cost overruns caused by Amtrak's indecision...". If this is true, that can cause some major headaches in the design and manufacturing phase.
Quite frankly, transit systems and/or governments who pull this kind of thing aren't worth Bombardiers time. They can get along just fine without NYCT's or Amtrak's business (who seem to be more trouble than they're worth), so if neither of these systems ever buy Bombardier equipment again that's fine, they can be another manufacturer's problem.
There was one weekend several years ago where a guard successfully blamed the then new T1s for a spurious door opening and the whole fleet was pulled out of service for a thorough going over. Nothing was found but while the T1s were out of service, all running H5s were put into service and several units of H2/4 were brought up from the Bloor Danforth line. The subsequent investigation never turned up anything in the T1s, and I personally suspect that the guard bumped the open buttons through inattention and got away with laying it on the new train...
-Robert King
Was the train in motion when this happened? That would have been serious (especially if someone was leaning on the doors!!)
I believe it was.
Shortly after, there were two door opening incidents on the Bloor Danforth which were human error. One was a training run where the guard under instruction apparantly misunderstood (quite severely) something and opened the doors of a train running between stations. Then, another guard did an illegal isolation of the last two cars because of an air problem.
The doors never closed and the loop didn't include those cars because of the isolation, so the train in question took off with the doors still open on those cars. If I remember correctly, both of these trains were formed with H2/4 cars.
The last two incidents actually generated a report to the Commission on door opening incidents. It may still be filed away in the reports section of the TTC website if you search back far enough.
-Robert King
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
***************************************************
U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), soon to have new authority over transportation matters before Congress, says that lawmakers should expedite passage of rail security legislation, and offered no reassurance for the long-term financial survival of Amtrak.
With Republicans due to take control of the Senate in January, the incoming chairman of the Commerce Committee said on November 14 he would not back substantial long-term subsidies for the nation’s only city-to-city passenger rail network.
Quoting the senator, Reuters reported, “Subsidization of forever of Amtrak is nothing that this senator will ever support,” the solon said in remarks on the Senate floor. He also criticized a legislative proposal for massive rail aid now stalled on Capitol Hill.
The commerce panel has authorization over Amtrak’s future, and McCain, a former chairman of the panel, is a strident critic of the national railway network.
He will replace Sen. Ernest Hollings (D-S.C.), a champion of Amtrak and fierce opponent of Bush administration proposals to privatize the service.
McCain expressed support for the $1.7 billion homeland security bill which eventually passed, but sharply criticized a separate $22 billion bill which not only included security enhancements but substantial financial aid for Amtrak as well. That part of the measure was excised before it came to a final vote.
Rail security concerns were heightened substantially in October when the FBI alerted law enforcement officials that rail networks, including passenger service, could be targeted for attacks.
Noting his preference for the much smaller security bill, McCain said the bigger measure was misguided. “The reason we don’t have rail security is because of the desire to add billions that don’t have anything to do with rail security,” he said.
A critic of former Amtrak chairman George Warrington, McCain praised his successor, Gunn, as a no-nonsense administrator.
“I’m pleased with some actions taken by the new regime at Amtrak. The new chairman is doing a much better job at making tough decisions,” McCain said. Gunn took over in May from Warrington, who left to head New Jersey Transit.
Gunn overhauled Amtrak’s business plan and over the summer and wrested a $300 million bailout package from Congress and the Bush administration. He has also cut costs and unsuccessful ventures, and directed resources to address the railroad’s antiquated infrastructure.
Amtrak has sought $1.2 billion in federal subsidies for the fiscal year that began October 1, but that funding remains tangled in the unresolved Congressional budget process with lawmakers in the House of Representatives proposing a subsidy of $760 million. Gunn has said the House proposal is inadequate to maintain service. Amtrak is receiving a share of its subsidy in temporary spending measures – continuing resolutions – authorized by Congress until lawmakers approve the Transportation Department budget. Approval will not come until sometime in January at the earliest when the 108th Congress convenes.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak president and CEO David Gunn rode the rails last week, just as he said he would (see D:F, November 11). He took a train to Chicago, and another from Chicago to California. Sacramento Bee reporter Matthew Barrows chronicled some of the events on November 17 while Gunn was there.
Gunn stepped off a train in Sacramento and it was as if a rock star has been spotted on the platform. An Amtrak employee zipped up to him in a cart and grabbed his hand. “It’s a pleasure to meet you,” she gushed. “You’re just... awesome.”
A passenger in a tan trench coat gave Gunn a good-natured thwack on the back and said, “Don’t let ‘em take Amtrak away.” Another voice yelled, “Go get ’em!”
Gunn just smiled and said, “I’ll do my best,” a bit embarrassed by all the fanfare.
After all, just last year the plain-talking 65-year-old was chopping wood and shoveling snow in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, trying to enjoy the peace and quiet of retirement.
That lifestyle ended abruptly in May when he accepted an offer to take over operations at Amtrak, an honor some might say is akin to being named captain of the Titanic minutes after it hit the iceberg.
The passenger rail company has lost money every year since it was created in 1970, and this summer again threatened to sink into bankruptcy until an emergency $205 million allocation from Congress bailed it out. The ball is in the Congress’ court, but they’re out until January.
With Amtrak gasping for breath, many have said it’s high time to kill it once and for all, or at least scrap the long-distance routes that gobble the most money.
Gunn, a lifelong railroad man, has a history of resuscitating ailing transit lines, turning around systems in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C., and shaping up New York City’s subway line at a time when even the most brazen city slickers were scared to use it.
He has plans to save Amtrak, too, including cost sharing, which is on top of his list. He wants to persuade states to follow California’s lead and start chipping in money for local corridor service. In the past four years, California has spent $120 million on the Capitol Corridor service from Sacramento to the Bay Area alone, and its total investment in passenger rail – $700 million over the last four years – eclipses that of any other state.
“At one point, California was the most auto-centric state in the union,” Gunn said, “and now they’re one of the most transit-and heavy rail-oriented. That’s saying something.”
Amtrak employees say the energetic Canadian is like nothing they’ve seen before.
While other corporate CEOs arrive to meetings in stretch limousines and fly across country in the first-class section, Gunn rides the rails in blue jeans and brown boots and climbs into the engine to trade train stories with the engineers.
“The other guy before him – I never even knew what he looked like,” said train attendant J.C. Adams, who jokes with Gunn about pitching in and helping make up beds. “He never even got on the train.”
Gunn took the California Zephyr on a trip from Chicago to the Bay Area [the week of November 10], and took the Sunset Limited and Crescent routes back to his temporary home in Washington, D.C.
Sitting in the Zephyr’s near-empty dome car as junkyards and pastureland glide by, Gunn said the first step toward solving Amtrak’s problems is to kick the notion that passenger rail service ever will be self-sufficient.
In 1997, Congress gave Amtrak $5.2 billion in hopes of weaning it off federal subsidies once and for all. Amtrak hasn’t come close to meeting that goal, and never will, Gunn said.
Instead, he envisions a plan in which states put up 20 percent of capital costs for local projects and the federal government picks up the rest, similar to how transit projects, such as light rail, are funded today. In addition, he would have the states pay for any operating deficits on local routes while Washington, D.C., picks up the tab for cross-country losses.
“The federal government has to treat passenger rail service the same way it treats roads, transit, waterways and airlines,” Gunn said. “It has to provide capital for worthy projects where states are willing to put their money where their mouth is.”
Gene Skoropowski, a friend of Gunn’s for 30 years and managing director of the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority, said that plan would be a boon for local rail service, which has relied on state money for past capital improvements.
In January, he said, the Capitol Corridor will add another round trip between Oakland and Sacramento, bringing total round trips to 11 and exhausting the capacity on the corridor.
Skoropowski said he’d eventually like to have 16 round trips a day, providing hourly service between the two cities from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Capacity concerns are also the thorniest obstacle for a commuter rail line local leaders want to launch between Auburn and Dixon in 2005.
Gunn’s plan, Skoropowski said, would create funding for new tracks and other infrastructure costs needed to boost capacity. More tracks would help eliminate current bottlenecks on the route, he said, cutting the time between Sacramento and Oakland by 20 minutes and making it more competitive with an automobile trip.
“It would be a massive opportunity for us,” he said.
But Tom Lawler of the National Governors’ Assn. said other states that have been getting a free ride are not ready to embrace the plan just yet. He said his group will meet with Amtrak after Thanksgiving and come back with a response in February.
“We need to make sure the trains keep moving,” Lawler said, “but (the states) have some pretty significant budget issues of their own. We’re just in the beginning stages of all this.”
California officials say that if Gunn wants a model of success to wave before Congress and state assemblies, he need look no further than the Capitol Corridor.
The service had more than 1 million riders in the last fiscal year, a 133 percent increase over passenger figures from four years ago, and has steadily added trains as ridership has grown.
According to Amtrak figures, the service loses $7.11 per passenger. The average loss on Amtrak routes is $57.67 per passenger and the long distance routes are far worse. The Sunset Limited that Gunn will take back to the East Coast, for example, loses $347 per passenger.
Still, the Capitol Corridor isn’t perfect.
On a recent evening trip east to Sacramento, the train unexpectedly stopped between Emeryville and Berkeley and the lights went out.
“Is this normal?” a woman’s voice called out in the dark.
“Yes!” several voices responded in unison.
Pat Breeding used to be a regular rider, taking the train from his home in Roseville to work in Martinez. He said delays – mechanical problems or waiting for slow-moving freight trains to pass – have become so bad that he’s considering returning to highway travel.
“I’ve only ridden the train twice this week,” he said. “My boss only puts up with so much. I know a guy who rides to San Jose and he just quit riding completely.”
Gunn said he hears similar complaints throughout the system. On his own trip out West, his train was held up coming out of Indianapolis and again outside Salt Lake City.
The biggest problem, he said, is that Amtrak has to share a limited amount of track with long, cumbersome, slow-moving freight trains – and freight traffic has nearly doubled in the last decade, according to railroad figures.
The railroads should back his plan for state funding for capital projects, Gunn said, because those improvements would help unsnarl freight traffic as well.
“The freight railroads have a big stake in this, too,” he said. “Let’s face it, we’re not going to build separate rights of way across the country.”
Passing by San Pablo Bay, Gunn says the long-distance trips like this one give him an opportunity to tour the facilities he suddenly took charge of in May.
“I want to get a good sense of how things work – or don’t work,” he said with a smile.
He said some passengers offer him feedback, one man telling him the sleeper berths aren’t long enough for tall people; the long-distance lines are mostly full of train enthusiasts or people who are afraid to fly.
When they find out the amiable guy in the blue jeans and khaki shirt is the head of Amtrak, they tend to extend their hands and beg him to keep Congress from cutting their favorite routes.
As the Zephyr nestles into its final stop in Emeryville, a voice comes over the intercom reminding passengers to make sure they have all their belongings.
It sends a message to Gunn as well:
“We want to thank you for your support. You ride ‘em, cowboy!”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak CEO David Gunn got off the Sunset Limited during a station stop in New Orleans on November 18, and visited New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal where he spoke to railroad employees and reporters.
Despite calls in Washington to eliminate the three passenger trains that serve New Orleans, Amtrak’s top executive reiterated he will fight for a Congressional budget that preserves the City of New Orleans, the Crescent and the Sunset Limited, The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported.
“Getting rid of the long-distance trains won’t make Amtrak profitable,” Gunn said.
New Orleans is served by the Crescent, which travels daily to New York through Washington; the City of New Orleans, which makes daily trips to Chicago; and the Sunset Limited, which runs a three-day route between Los Angeles and Orlando.
Although eliminating long-distance trains would save Amtrak about $300 million a year, Gunn said, the company still would be in the red because of the huge administrative cost of shutting down the services.
“There are people who think (the long-distance trains) are the problem, but that’s not the problem,” he said. “We need to keep them because they really do provide a service – but that’s a political decision.”
The trains serving New Orleans also pass through dozens of towns with few long-distance transportation options, particularly for people with limited incomes, Gunn said.
“We have an obligation to provide transportation service to people in those small communities,” he added.
Gunn said Amtrak’s “conservative” budget request provides for bare-bones operations and defers some much-needed track maintenance until the next fiscal year. The financial plan also would pay off a $100 million loan from the USDOT that was extended to the company last summer to keep it afloat, and it would help avoid a repeat of this year’s financial crisis by leaving Amtrak with $75 million in the bank at the end of the year.
A massive management restructuring by Gunn has cut the number of Amtrak vice presidents from 84 to about 20, and the company’s books have been reorganized to more accurately reflect its fiscal condition. Gunn, the former head of the New York City Transit Authority who came out of retirement on his family farm in Nova Scotia in May to turn around the troubled company, discovered $200 million in previously unknown losses in September after he sorted through the company’s poorly maintained books.
Gunn’s recent stop in New Orleans was his first since taking over Amtrak. He spent the day roaming through Union Station and nearby Amtrak warehouses and maintenance yards, where he greeted employees and talked to them about their jobs.
Amtrak worker Earl White was surprised to bump into Gunn in a locomotive cab being repaired in a workshop behind the downtown train station. “I’ve never seen a president here, and I’ve been here for 20 years,” White said.
“I believe in management by walking around,” Gunn said later. “You have to understand the physical and human reality of these places. Given all of the uncertainty surrounding Amtrak, it’s incumbent on me to give employees access.”
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak said last Friday (November 15) it was seeking a few final modifications to the first of seven rebuilt high-speed trains, dimming hopes that the first Turboliner would be running by Thanksgiving. The state of New York said it is waiting for Amtrak – and the state DOT is not very happy.
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel described the issues as “minor deficiencies,” declining to identify them. “There is nothing major wrong with the train.”
Stessel told D:F on November 21 the RTL-3s, in their railroad nomenclature, are not having mechanical problems. He indicated the train will be ready for service “in a matter of weeks.” He also said when the trains enter service, a notice most likely will come from Gov. George Pataki’s office. He inferred the problems were more political than anything else, but the trainset nevertheless is in the Super Steel Schenectady shop for further work.
A week ago, a spokeswoman for the NY DOT told the Albany Times Union the agency had accepted the first train as ready for service and was waiting for Amtrak to give the nod.
However, NYDOT does not run the trains, Amtrak does, and the passenger railroad was not satisfied, railroad officials said.
Final testing of the first trainset, which has included midnight runs between Rensselaer and New York City, began in August.
Seven old Amtrak trains manufactured in the mid-1970s are being rebuilt for high-speed service between Albany-Rensselaer and New York City by Super Steel Schenectady under a $74.4 million state contract. The state’s entire budget for the seven-train project is approximately $98.5 million, including future upgrades to the propulsion system, a stockpile of some replacement parts and consulting work. Another $140 million is to be spent on tracks, bridges and crossings to enable operation of the trains at full speed, 125 miles per hour.
Amtrak will sign off on final acceptance of the train as soon as the company is confident that no further modifications are needed from Super Steel Schenectady, Stessel said. Then there will be another brief delay while Amtrak trains the Turboliner staff.
The Turboliners are expected to shave about 20 minutes off the 142-mile trip between Rensselaer and Manhattan, but won’t be able to reach top speeds at first. Current track speeds are between 75 and 95 mph with some areas rated at 110 mph.
Meanwhile, the Albany Business Review reported Amtrak appeared to be backing out of the deal, state officials said.
In a November 18 letter to Amtrak Chairman John Robert Smith, State Transportation Commissioner Joseph H. Boardman complained that Amtrak is no longer interested in upholding its part of a deal which was supposed to return seven rebuilt Turbotrains in service.
“Amtrak’s actions call into question Amtrak’s commitment to deliver a quality passenger service to New Yorkers,” the letter said. “Amtrak is consumed with its survival, and is no longer focused on the nation’s intercity rail passenger needs.”
“It is failing to honor its past partnerships and commitments,” Boardman’s letter stated.
Clifford Black, Amtrak’s director of media relations, said only that Amtrak had received Boardman’s letter.
“We will respond to it in due time to the commissioner,” he said.
Under the New York-Amtrak agreement, the state and Amtrak were to spend $185 million in a five-year effort to speed up railroad passenger service in New York. Under the agreement New York was to pay to rebuild seven Turbotrains at SuperSteel while Amtrak would upgrade track and signals.
Amtrak is more than $14 million behind in its share of the work, and has fallen a year and a half behind schedule for installing a double-track between Rensselaer and Schenectady, Boardman said in his letter. Those tracks belong to CSX.
Putting in a second track between the Rensselaer Amtrak station and Schenectady is a critical piece of the effort to put high-speed trains into service in New York.
On top of that, Amtrak now appears to be saying that it is no longer satisfied with the Turboliner trainset the state accepted.
“New York state recently received two letters signed by Amtrak officials accepting the first new Turboliner trainset, one indicating conditional acceptance, another indicating final acceptance. The state then received a message explaining that the final acceptance was in error, with a draft letter describing a new process for accepting the Turboliner,” Boardman’s letter said.
Now, Boardman’s letter said, “it appears that this retraction may be retracted!”
“Although Amtrak has contributed no money to this project, its staff is talking about reconfiguring the trains along the Empire Corridor, implying that unless all operating losses are covered, the Turboliner trainsets may never be used,” the letter said.
Amtrak is also more than eight months behind the project schedule for the final signal design and has also failed to order the turbines and transmissions for the remaining trainsets under construction at SuperSteel, Boardman’s letter said.
The program is in its fifth and final year.
NYDOT has been negotiating in good faith with Amtrak, but the passenger rail operator hasn’t done it’s share and New York wants action, said DOT spokeswoman Melissa Carlson.
Amtrak has a list of 54 items it says need to be fixed before the Turboliner can be accepted. They include rusting screws, panel cracks, loose trim, misplaced toilet paper dispensers, peeling paint, and passenger doors that are rusting at the bottom.
The Turbotrains date from the mid-1970s. Under the state’s rebuilding plan, they are being stripped to their metal shells and then rebuilt with new interiors, new electronics and controls, and new propulsion systems. The discovery of asbestos and lead paint slowed the rebuilding.
The first train set essentially has been complete for more than a year and has undergone several months of testing, culminating with a midnight run between Albany, N.Y., and New York City earlier this month.
New York wants assurances from Amtrak that it intends to honor its previous commitments, Boardman’s letter said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Amtrak and Pennsylvania’s DOT clashed November 19 over whether it is safe for passenger trains to continue running underneath the dilapidated Fruitville Pike bridge in Lancaster, Penna., which was recently unexpectedly closed to traffic.
Railroad officials are pressing the state DOT for a written guarantee that the bridge will not collapse onto Amtrak’s rail lines or commuter cars, according to the Lancaster New Era.
They warned that any further bridge damage could force the company to “stop train traffic west of Lancaster.”
”It’s about lives, for us,” John J. Diamonte, an Amtrak engineer, told PennDOT engineers during an afternoon meeting on November 19. “We’re placed in a hell of a position.”
PennDOT is refusing to provide the safety promise.
In a separate development, PennDOT is now weighing whether to build a temporary bridge to carry traffic into and out of Lancaster City. The bridge would be open to two lanes of traffic by March, two months earlier than PennDOT’s other construction alternatives.
The bridge was closed to traffic on November 12 after inspectors discovered that cracks in a support pier underneath it had widened. The pier, which stands between Amtrak’s four tracks, holds up the Fruitville Pike bridge.
Railroad officials said they are worried that the pier could fail and send the bridge toppling onto one of their passenger trains. PennDOT said it will not provide a written guarantee that such a failure won’t happen.
”They want a letter from us guaranteeing the bridge is safe for rail traffic,” said Mike Sisson, a PennDOT construction manager. “It’s a little tough to guarantee something that’s unknown. I have no idea if it is or not.
”We told them, “You guys have your own structural engineers. If you feel it’s unsafe, then shut it down,”’ Sisson said.
The trains do not move under the bridge at high speeds because the station is nearby on McGovern Avenue. About 20 trains pass under the Fruitville Pike bridge daily, reaching an estimated 20 to 25 mph, but any vibration near the bridge could cause more damage to the already cracked support pier holding it up.
”One more failure and we could stop train traffic west of Lancaster,” said Gene Kredensor, an Amtrak official based in Philadelphia.
An Amtrak spokesman said, “We are concerned about this bridge, however, at this moment there is no immediate danger and the railroad continues to operate normally.
Amtrak engineers met with PennDOT engineers Wednesday to make sure the bridge is monitored and safe for our continued operation.
During the November 19 meeting, Kredensor and Diamonte repeatedly asked a PennDOT bridge engineer if the bridge could fall down at any moment. The engineer, Harivadan Parikh, would not make any promises.
”We can’t give them 100-percent guarantees,” said PennDOT spokesman Greg Penny. “I think if we were concerned about the bridge falling onto the railroad, we’d certainly be conveying that to the railroad.
”It sounds like they’re looking for a 100-percent guarantee. If they want to satisfy themselves, they can make their own independent assessment with their engineers,” Penny said.
”We feel that we’ve made the conditions much safer by taking the live loads off the bridge.”
Among the three options to reconstruct the bridge, most of the local officials appear to support the one that would put traffic back onto it by March.
The three options include tearing down the old bridge, abutments and piers then building an entirely new pier the full width of the bridge and opening two lanes by Memorial Day, May 26. The entire project would be completed in September 2003.
Another option is to tear down the old bridge, and rebuild it one-half at a time, opening the newly completed half to two lanes of traffic by Memorial Day. Work would continue on the remaining half. The entire bridge would be completed by September of 2003.
The third idea is to build a temporary bridge, which would be is service by March. The two downsides of this idea are that the entire bridge replacement project wouldn’t be completed until November 2004, and building a temporary span would add $500,000 to the $5.9 million project.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Florida probably will not meet a state Constitutional requirement that it start construction for its statewide high-speed rail system, officials said last week.
Construction of the proposed system’s first leg, between Tampa and Orlando, probably won’t begin until mid-2004 at the earliest, a Florida High Speed Rail Authority member said. Construction can’t start until the FRA approves the project, which isn’t expected until at least April 2004, officials said. That would be well beyond the November 2003 deadline contained in the constitutional amendment that voters passed in 2000 according to the Bradenton Herald of November 14.
“It’s a long shot” that the state will meet the deadline, authority member James A. “Skip” Fowler acknowledged during a media briefing at the Orange County Convention Center.
Authority members have known “almost since the start” that construction wouldn’t begin by the constitutional deadline, said Norman Mansour of Anna Maria, an authority member. Because of that, the authority last year determined that construction would officially begin upon the signing of a construction contract, he said.
“We believe that fulfills the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law,” said Mansour, who was not at the media briefing. “Our legal advisers have agreed with that all along.”
That interpretation could face legal and political challenges, opponents of the amendment said.
“I think there could be lawsuits as a result,” said Donald Crane, president of Floridians for Better Transportation, which opposed using the state constitution to mandate the rail system. “If the authority pushes too hard, there could be some legislators offering amendments to strike down high-speed rail.”
Opponents also question whether “backdating” the construction contract, as state officials are proposing to do, would satisfy the constitutional deadline. The state’s schedule calls for executing the contract in May 2004. The state will probably begin construction by mid-2004, one year later than required by the amendment, with the system open to passengers by 2008.
Plans call for first building the Tampa-Orlando leg for an estimated $1.5 billion, followed by an extension to St. Petersburg. Service between Tampa and Orlando would start in late 2008.
Fowler said he’s not sure if high-speed trains capable of going 120 mph should be running the short trip between Tampa and St. Petersburg.
“How far apart is Tampa and St. Petersburg? Six miles?” he said. “Why put in high-speed rail for six miles? Those are commuters, not high-speed rail riders.”
He also said high-speed rail service would require building a $400 million to $500 million bridge over Tampa Bay because the three existing highway bridges could not handle the added weight.
Mansour said the rail authority has not discussed that segment in-depth nor made any decisions, but plans to operate under the premise the amendment requires high-speed service between Tampa and St. Petersburg.
The state also plans an Orlando-to-Miami line, with construction starting in early 2006 and trains operating on it in late 2010. The estimated construction cost is $6 billion to $8 billion.
State officials hope the federal government foots at least half the bill, with whichever private firm chosen to run the trains contributing at least 10 percent.
“’Much like an airport, the state and federal governments would provide the basic infrastructure, and the operator would cover operations and maintenance,” Fowler said.
Meanwhile, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers (BLE) – which could have a major stake in the eventual outcome – reported on its web site that as a group of international consortia prepare bids to run the state’s high-speed rail project, a local feud over its route shows no sign of ending, the Orlando Sentinel reported.
Orange County officials want the system to run from Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center via the Bee Line Expressway, State Road 528. From there, it would shoot down Interstate 4 on its way to Tampa.
Walt Disney World officials want the line to run along State Road 417, the Central Florida GreeneWay, skipping the convention center. The convention center area, company officials say, would be better served by light rail linking it to the airport, Disney and downtown Orlando. County officials don’t dismiss light rail, but they are loath to give up a high-speed link to the airport. The line will eventually connect to Miami, and, many years from now, to Jacksonville and Tallahassee.
Orange County Chairman Rich Crotty says the Bee Line route to the convention center “makes the most sense” given that the center is a huge public facility located in the heart of the tourist district, an area he calls “Downtown Orange County.”
The vice-president of the Peabody hotel has been even more pointed. In an October 29 letter, Alan Villaverde said not serving the convention center with high-speed rail would be “unconscionable.”
Disney officials counter that building high-speed rail between the airport and International Drive would chew up right of way, which would make it difficult to build light rail, a more useful type for locals. High-speed rail, they say, should be kept to the GreeneWay.
The constitutional amendment requires officials to build a high-speed rail system serving Florida’s five largest urban areas.
The Naples Daily News pointed out it will be years before the high-speed rail reaches Naples and Fort Myers. Those two cities are not in the first two phases of the state’s high-speed rail plan.
“I think we’ve bitten off as much as we can chew now,” said Mansour in explaining why Naples, Fort Myers and cities like Jacksonville and Tallahassee are not in the first two phases of the state plan.
That first phase will also see the state construct a rail line from Tampa to St. Petersburg. That line would be completed in 2009 after construction begins in 2005.
The next phase would build the high-sped line from Orlando to Miami, and most likely will pass through Fort Pierce, West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale.
Construction would begin in 2006 and be done in 2010, but the costs of the second line are undetermined.
The state’s “vision map” anticipates all the cities eventually would be hooked up to high-speed rail. Naples and Fort Myers are on the map along with Sarasota, Bradenton, Ocala, Gainesville, Tallahassee, Pensacola, Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach and Cocoa Beach.
“The goal is to have high speed rail hook up all of Florida,” Mansour said.
This long-range map has the rail line heading south from Tampa to hook up Bradenton, Sarasota, Fort Myers and Naples. It will then go over Alligator Alley and hook up with Fort Lauderdale.
Nazih Haddad, staff director for the Florida High Speed Rail Commission, said the state will have a ridership study completed by the end of November that will determine what the need for high-speed rail is.
Early next year the authority will begin accepting bids from private companies that want to partner with the state to build the rail line.
“We are looking for a private partner that will design, build and run the high speed rail,” Mansour said. “We’re not saying what type of high speed rail we want. We’re letting companies come to us.”
The rail system would be run as a for-profit business.
“It would be foolish to assume the private sector will do this without the possibility of profit,” Mansour said.
The cost of building the high-speed rail is still uncertain but Mansour said any company contracted to build the rail system will have to come up with a fixed, set price on how much construction would cost.
The state estimates that it will cost about $1.3 billion to construct the rail system from Orlando to Tampa as a steel-wheel, steel-rail system, Haddad said.
Florida also will look for funding help from the federal government.
“Federal funding is essential,” Mansour said. “It is also totally unknown and undefined, but we do anticipate favorable funding programs.”
The state’s goal is to have the Legislature approve a contract with a private company to build the rail line between Tampa and Orlando by November 2003. State officials say having the contract signed is all that is needed to meet the constitutional amendment requirement that construction begin by the end of 2003.
The state legislature will make final funding decisions on building the rail.
“Our responsibility is to come up with the best available plan,” Mansour said. “The legislature will then determine where the funding will come from. This will all be dealt with in the 2003 legislative session.”
The state has allocated $12 million to the Florida High Speed Rail Commission since the constitutional amendment was passed. The money has gone toward setting up the rail commission and conducting ridership and feasibility studies.
Haddad said there is a need for rail service in the state.
“We have a population of over 16 million and that will soon be 20 million,” Haddad said. “There are also 60 to 70 million tourists that visit this state each year.”
The permanent and tourist populations make it difficult for the state roads because many Florida residents drive a car.
“We are a single transportation mode state when it comes to in-state transportation,” Haddad said. “About 99 percent of the population uses cars when it travels within the state.”
The rail system should ease congestion on overcrowded Florida roads.
“The highway capacity can’t increase as fast as Florida is growing,” Haddad said. “We need to give people an alternative means of travel.”
Haddad estimates that about 10 percent of the people who now travel the roads will use the rail system instead.
The fare to travel on high-speed rail will probably be between $25 and $30. But it will be up to the company contracted to run the rail system to set the price, Haddad said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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When Garland, Texas’ two light-rail stations open last Monday, riders had the opportunity to be first in a long line. Dallas Area Rapid Transit officials say that by the end of 2003, an average of 1,409 passengers will board trains at the Forest-Jupiter Station each weekday, and that 1,982 will do the same at downtown Garland.
Mayor Bob Day told dignitaries gathered for the ribbon-cutting that having freeways on the outskirts of Garland had created a transportation doughnut and that light rail’s blue line would fill the hole, according to The Dallas Morning News.
“I think you will see people riding trains into downtown Garland as well as riding them from Garland into Dallas,” Day said.
The first train was scheduled to arrive at the downtown Garland station at 5:03 a.m. and depart at 5:08 a.m.
The trains will run from 5 a.m. to midnight daily, departing every 10 minutes during weekday rush hours and every 15 to 20 minutes at midday, evenings and weekends. Travel time from downtown Garland to the West End station in downtown Dallas is 32 minutes.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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An upstart group of small local governments wants Harris County, Texas, to join its campaign to build a high-speed rail line that would run through College Station and Houston and shoot into East Texas, according to the Houston Chronicle of November 18.
Commissioners Court was to decide last week whether to join the Texas High-speed Rail and Transportation Corp., a group started last month by College Station officials who want to be a part of any rail network federal and state leaders cobble together.
The group, which will be chaired by County Judge Robert Eckels, is proposing high-speed rail routes for freight and passengers not included in Gov. Rick Perry’s $183 billion Trans Texas Corridor proposal or in any plans federal officials are considering.
“Local governments have to make sure they’re on the ground floor of this planning,” said College Station City Councilman John Happ, vice chairman of the group and chairman of that city’s transportation committee.
From Harris County’s perspective, Eckels said, spending $150,000 a year in dues to be a part of the group makes sense. He said it would help link Houston and the Dallas-Fort Worth area by high-speed rail and provide needed routes between Houston and the Brazos Valley.
The more rail plans the county can be a part of, Eckels said, the better.
The Trans Texas Corridor pushed by Perry and state officials could take as long as 50 years to become reality. It would include a 4,000-mile network of tollways, pipelines and high-speed rail using common right-of-way and linking urban and rural areas.
Eckels said that plan routes new lines around cities, not into them. Federal plans under consideration call for one route between the Dallas area, Austin and San Antonio and another from Houston to New Orleans, with no linkage between the two.
The plan pushed by the College Station group would add another piece to the puzzle, officials said, by making other cities part of the network. It could provide a link from Houston to the proposed federal lines connecting other major Texas cities.
It calls for a line from the Killeen-Temple area through the Brazos Valley and into Bryan and College Station. It would then go to Houston, Beaumont and Port Arthur.
College Station residents feel they were unfairly left out when freeways such as Interstate 45 were built years ago, Happ said, making participation in high-speed rail projects vital.
Happ said Harris County is the first large county the group has approached.
It will not work. I live in Austin,TX and I know that Texans love their cars. The trains will run empty.
They should build them, "The Texas way." That is... built with private investment money. Unlike NY, CAL and most other places, Texas is not too socialist yet. We do not even have a state income tax (yet).
Let's keep Texas free, build with private money.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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A ferry ride from the Raritan River out to the bay, under the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and up New York Harbor to Manhattan would be breathtaking on all but the most dismal days.
Certainly it’s more scenic and less stressful than traveling overland up New Jersey’s “Chemical Coast,” either bumper-to-bumper on the New Jersey Turnpike or standing on a New Jersey Transit train, states an AP dispatch of last week, but Perth Amboy officials, who believe ferry service is important to attracting development and ensuring the success of $1 billion in projects already under way, say the transit agency’s lack of cooperation has scuttled ferry plans.
The problem is a low railroad bridge that crosses the Raritan River just west of the bay. When the bridge is down, river traffic is blocked.
During a transit board meeting last week, Mayor Joseph Vas accused the agency of failing to return his calls or written communications for two years. Vas wants to develop a coordinated schedule of train crossings and bridge openings to allow both rail and ferry service during rush hour.
“Mr. Executive Director, I’m very disappointed that you haven’t reached out to me,” Vas said, addressing the agency’s top administrator, George Warrington. “Is it that you don’t want to see our ferry service? There can be no other explanation.”
Warrington denied his trains are competing with ferries, but Perth Amboy offers the region’s starkest example yet in which ferry and rail service have been pitted against one another since September 11, 2001.
Ferries have multiplied in the waters surrounding Manhattan in recent years, particularly since the terrorist attacks. The World Trade Center PATH station remains closed, and many commuters discovered water travel while the Holland and Lincoln tunnels were temporarily shut down.
New York Waterway, which controls 90 percent of New York Harbor’s ferry business, has seen daily ridership double to 67,000 since the attacks. Peak train ridership also increased for some of the same reasons.
Anthony Cappaze, chief executive of the ferry’s would-be operator, Lighthouse Fast Ferry Inc., said plans are for three trips from Perth Amboy to Pier 11 in Manhattan each morning, at 6, 6:45 and about 8 a.m. Newark-bound trains pass over the bridge moments before arriving in Perth Amboy, which has regularly scheduled morning peak stops at 5:16, 6:12, 6:35, 7:20, 7:38, 8:08, 8:49, 9:02 a.m.
Cappaze plans five or six return ferry trips for more flexible evening travel. Trains make four stops in Perth Amboy during the evening rush.
“We can adjust to their schedule,” Cappaze said.
Opening and closing the bridge takes at least 12 minutes, an eternity to people trying to make trains run on time.
“Generally, bridge openings at peak periods make railroad operators anxious,” Warrington said, but he pledged to discuss the issue.
The city wants the ferry slip at a former industrial site just south of the Victory, Driscoll and Route 9 bridges.
A new road provides indirect access to Routes 35 and 9, the Garden State Parkway and the New Jersey Turnpike, and would keep most ferry traffic away from residential neighborhoods.
Even so, Bill Wright, a member of the New Jersey Association of Rail Passengers, said a better site would be the old Tottenville Ferry Terminal on the Arthur Kill, with clear sailing out to the bay.
“It makes no sense to have a location that is going to delay thousands of people,” Wright said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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A Michigan train wreck that killed two men last year was caused by the fatigue of two crew members who were suffering from severe sleep apnea, the National Transportation Safety Board said in a report approved November 19.
Engineer Allen Yash and conductor Jesse Enriquez, who were operating a Canadian National freight train southbound toward Detroit, were diagnosed before the accident with obstructive sleep apnea by their private physicians. Neither had been successfully treated and their conditions were not listed in company medical reports, NTSB’s investigation found.
The two men fell asleep while traveling in a wooded area near Clarkston, Mich., just before 6:00 a.m. on November 15, 2001, and did not see a stop signal or the lights of an oncoming train, the report said. Their train was traveling at 13 miles per hour when it struck another Canadian National train going 30 mph northbound for Flint. The crash killed the 49-year-old engineer, Thomas Landris, and 58-year-old conductor, Gary Chase, of the oncoming train. Yash and Enriquez were hospitalized with serious injuries, according to The AP.
Obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, causes a person to periodically stop breathing while asleep. Dr. Mitch Garber, a physician on the NTSB’s investigation team, said people with the condition will feel extremely sleepy during the day and can drift off after a few minutes in a quiet or monotonous environment.
Sleep apnea also was blamed for a light rail crash at Baltimore-Washington International Airport on Aug. 15, 2000, injuring all 22 people aboard.
Garber estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the population has the severe form of OSA.
”It seems odd to have both members of a two-man crew with a similar condition,” said board member John Hammerschmidt.
Steve Jenner, another investigator, said Yash had been diagnosed with the condition about a year before the wreck. Despite his doctor’s warning that it could cause him to fall asleep on the job, he never followed the physician’s instructions to attend a sleep clinic.
Enriquez had been diagnosed several years earlier and was treated at a sleep clinic and given an air-pumping mask to wear at night, but he still suffered from sleeplessness and snoring, so Jenner said it may not have been set at the right pressure. The report also said Enriquez had an irregular and unpredictable work schedule that may have added to his fatigue.
The NTSB recommended that the FRA develop a standard medical form for railroad companies that would inquire whether operators suffered from sleep conditions. The board also recommended that the administration require that employees with incapacitating medical conditions tell their employer and stop working in safety-sensitive positions until they are successfully treated.
It also recommended that Canadian National require “fatigue awareness training” for its employees. The company offers its employees material on sleep problems, but does not require they read them or offer any classes on the topic.
Canadian National spokesman Jack Burke said the company will consider the recommendation. “I think their focus was appropriate that this was human error,” he said.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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An advertisement in this month’s Railway Age makes it official – Amtrak is getting out of the freight express business. The passenger railroad is selling all its boxcars. It is also willing to lease them.
Here’s what they are offering:
In the boxcar category, there are 50 Greenbrier 50-footers, 194 Greenbrier-Trenton Works 60-footers, and 100 Trinity 60-footers.
The passenger railroad is also giving up 71 Wabash National 53-foot Plate Trailers (Roadrailers), 12 Wabash National Roadrailer Couplermates, and 33 Wabash National Roadrailer intermediate “bogies” (trucks).
“In addition,” the ad states, “the following equipment may also become available for sale and/or lease: 111 Ebenezer refrigerated boxcars.”
B. A. Hastings, who is the railroad’s material disposal manager, is handling the sales activity. Buyers or leasers can call him at (215) 349-1192 or e-mail him at hastinb@amtrak.com.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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Every day, 460,000 Chicago area motorists waste a total of 11,000 hours sitting at railroad intersections watching trains go by.
The absolute worst intersection in the six-county region is where the CSX tracks cross 127th Street in south suburban Blue Island. There, 4,615 vehicles are halted each day by the crossing gates that descend for a total of 41/2 hours a day, reports the Chicago Sun-Times of November 17.
The delays are almost as bad at a couple of dozen other rail intersections on Chicago’s South Side, in the south suburbs, and in the west and northwest suburbs of LaGrange, Riverside and Des Plaines.
At the rail crossing in Blue Island, the wait is often so long that when golfers heading home from a nearby club hear the rumble of a slow-moving freight, they turn right around and play another nine holes.
“Their wives don’t argue,” said Blue Island Mayor Don Peloquin. “They know how bad it is.”
The Chicago area’s 30 worst train crossings, as measured by how long and how often motorists get stuck at gates, are ranked in a new study by the Illinois Commerce Commission. The study was requested by Illinois’ congressional delegation to help them decide where to spend federal money on railroad infrastructure. Having figured out which of the metro area’s 1,763 rail-street intersections cause the most delays, however, transportation experts remain at a loss how to fix things. Every conceivable solution, such as running the tracks over a viaduct, is expensive and likely to displace homes and businesses.
Many Chicago neighborhoods and suburbs owe their existence, ironically, to the railroads that now strangle them. More than 150 factories, shops and bedroom commuter suburbs grew up along the tracks that rolled out of Chicago like the spokes of a wheel.
The trains have grown longer over the decades and, especially in crowded urban areas, slowed to a crawl.
In Blue Island, trains often stretch more than 1-1/2 miles and creep slowly uphill out of a nearby freight yard, said Mayor Peloquin, a lifelong resident whose father worked for the railroad. Equally long trains rolling into the freight yard often grind to a halt as their cars are shuffled and sorted.
Half-hour waits for a train to move are not uncommon and, as a result, life in Blue Island can take on a frustrating rhythm.
“It seems like even when you’re walking the dog you’ve got to wait for the train,” said Blue Island resident Pauline Bialek. “You have to arrange your whole day around these trains. You really can’t be in a hurry around here.”
As in Blue Island, many of the worst rail crossings are near rail yards. The Belt Railway crossings east of Midway Airport, for example, feed into a yard in nearby Bedford Park.
“It’s very frustrating when these trains stop traffic out there during rush hour,” said Ald. Michael Zalewski of the Southwest Side’s 23rd Ward, where many of the Belt Railway crossings are located.
With 16 rail crossings in the ward, Zalewski said, the problem will never go away “until we get a grade separation at a couple of major intersections.”
Area
Address Motorist delay
(hours) Vehicles
delayed Gate down time
(minutes)
1. Blue Island 127th 278 4,615 269
2. Dixmoor Western Ave 222 3,68 571
3. Chicago 130th St.
west of Torrence 191 3,962 273
4. Riverdale Indiana Ave 184 3,053 571
5. Chicago Ridge Ridgeland Ave 173 5,042 300
It takes a train just a couple of days to go from California to Chicago, but it can take two more days to move the cargo on that train through Chicago and on its way.
Trains slow to a crawl in the metro area, rail yards back up, and freight cars must sometimes be unloaded from one train, hauled by truck across town and reloaded onto a second train.
To alleviate some of the problem, U.S. Rep. William O. Lipinski wants to establish a federal rail trust fund to funnel money to states for underpasses and viaducts at road crossings and other rail improvements.
“The railroad situation here really is a major problem, not only for the railroads, but for the city, state and people who live around the railroads, and something has to be done about it,” Lipinski told transportation experts recently at a meeting sponsored by the Real Estate Investment Assn.
Lipinski said he’d like to see the funds included in next year’s federal transportation bill, but the railroads, wary that they’ll be hit with higher taxes to foot the bill, are unhappy with the idea.
“We are opposed to the concept of the rail trust fund as it’s been presented so far,” said Paul Nowicki, vice president of governmental and public policy at Burlington Northern Santa Fe.
Lipinski insists that it’s in the railroads’ best interest to get on board – they’re the ones who lose money when rail traffic bogs down.
“A railroad infrastructure trust fund would resolve those kind of problems, not only in Chicago but in other parts of the country,” he said.
Lipinski won’t say where the money would come from, but one source being considered is a 4.3 cents-a-gallon diesel tax that the railroads already pay. The railroads would prefer to see the tax repealed.
Another option, more agreeable to the railroads, would be to tap some of the $20 billion in customs duties collected on imported goods. Proponents point out that much of the cargo delivered to America’s ports winds up on trains.
If Lipinski’s measure passes, it could provide $2 billion a year of rail infrastructure funding.
Meanwhile, the Chicago Metropolitan Planning Council, with input from local railroads, earlier this year called for public and private support for a package of improvements, including installing grade separations at the 40 worst crossings, upgrading 55 miles of highways used by trucks to transfer containers from one rail yard to another, and establishing joint-use corridors to connect yards and allow transcontinental trains to pass straight through the Chicago area.
In the meantime, Chicago can continue to boast that it is the rail hub of the United States, with a third of the nation’s freight running through the city, creating 117,000 jobs and a $3.2 billion payroll, according to the council.
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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There were angry scenes at Paris’s Gare du Nord (North Station) as thousands of cross-Channel passengers were blockaded last Monday, November 18, by union pickets on strike for a pay rise.
London-bound Eurostar trains were stuck for several hours at the station after striking French catering staff blocked platforms and stopped passengers from checking in, according to CNN.
While no trains were officially cancelled, departures were on hold as police cleared platforms and negotiations got under way between union representatives and Eurostar chiefs in an attempt to “take the steam out of the situation,” a company spokesman said.
The ranks of frustrated passengers swelled as three successive trains, the first at 6:37 a.m. failed to depart.
A spokesman for Eurostar said one train finally left Paris at 12:30 p.m. local time.
The strike was called the previous Friday by the French CFTC union at Momentum Services, the company which serves hot and cold meals and snacks on the Channel Tunnel trains, over a claim that its British employees are paid more than French ones.
The CFTC said it was also concerned about security surrounding the 31 mile (50 km) tunnel, despite improved measures since last year’s September 11 attacks.
Passengers now go through airport-style checks and have their baggage scanned before boarding.
Trains were running normally from London’s Waterloo Station to Paris, and the London to Brussels service was unaffected, a Eurostar spokesman said. However, there was no catering on trains from Paris rostered with a French crew or where catering would have been provided from London by a French staff making a return trip, the spokesman said.
The union said they wanted security stepped up at Waterloo in London and Gare du Nord in Paris, and cited a number of alleged security lapses, including stowaways in baggage compartments and stolen Eurostar uniforms and badges.
The Eurostar spokesman claimed the issue of security had only been raised by the catering staff to highlight their case.
“They have added it for good measure,” he said.
“Security is determined by the British and French governments and we at Eurostar have higher security than has been asked for.”
On the pay issue, Eurostar pointed out the cost of living was generally higher in London than in Paris or Brussels.
Eurostar, which marked its eighth anniversary on Thursday, runs up to 26 trains a day between Paris, Brussels and London, with rush hour trains running as frequently as every 45 minutes.
Eurostar awarded its catering contract in 2000 to Momentum, a joint venture between British catering giant Compass and Italian food firm Cremonini, whose staff welcome passengers on board, serve full meals to first-class passengers and run a bar for second-class travelers.
Most of Momentum’s staff are based in Britain and are not participating in the strike.
Eurostar is run by the state railways of France and Belgium and a British consortium including British Airways and bus
From last week's Destination Freedom located at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df11252002.shtml
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The accord that ended the 1950-53 Korean War has become the center of a dispute over a key reconciliation project between South and North Korea: the re-linking of two cross-border railways.
The conflict is the latest in the troubled history of the armistice agreement, according to The AP, which was signed after two years of acrimonious talks between the U.S.-led U.N. Command and its battlefield foes, North Korea and China.
The 18-page document did not officially end the Korean War, and the Demilitarized Zone, or DMZ, that it created to keep the enemy armies apart, is an explicit reminder of the potential for confrontation. The border area is heavily mined and fenced, and sealed off from most Koreans.
The latest dispute developed two weeks ago week when the two Koreas prepared to send military officers onto each other’s side of the DMZ to inspect demining work. The demining is a prelude to the laying of railway track inside the 2.5-mile-wide buffer zone; but the North Koreans refused a request from the U.N. Command to submit the names of their inspectors and the times they would cross into the southern side. They asserted that the U.N. Command had no jurisdiction in the matter.
However, Article I.8 of the July 27, 1953 armistice agreement states that no one in the DMZ “shall be permitted to enter the territory under the military control of either side unless specifically authorized to do so by the Commander into whose territory entry is sought.”
Construction work continues in the DMZ, and it’s unclear whether the procedural dispute will balloon into a major obstacle to a showcase project of South Korean President Kim Dae-jung’s engagement policy toward North Korea.
“There is no change in the status of the dispute,” a South Korean Defense Ministry official said Saturday. He identified himself only as Major Kim.
A bigger threat to the railway project could lie in tension over North Korea’s recently revealed nuclear weapons program. The United States and its allies recently suspended oil deliveries to North Korea to punish it for the nuclear program.
In earlier meetings, U.S. officials who head the U.N. Command had granted the two Koreas “administrative” authority in the railway corridors in the DMZ. But they declined a North Korean request for “jurisdictional” authority, which would have meant armistice terms no longer applied in the corridors.
“We fully want the North side to comply with the armistice agreement as they agreed to in November 2000 and then again this fall,” said Maj. Gen. James Soligan, deputy chief of staff of the U.N. Command.
On November 16, the North’s official news agency, KCNA, accused the American-led U.N. Command of trying to disrupt the railway project as part of its campaign to muster international pressure on the communist state over its nuclear weapons program.
“The Korean nation will never tolerate the U.S. dog-in-a-manger act of putting a brake on the Korean nation’s undertaking of reconnecting its blood ties,” it said.
South Korea is not a member of the U.N. Command but supports its position. It has tried in vain to convince the North Koreans to abide by the request.
The U.N. Command comprises 16 nations that fought on the South Korean side in the Korean War, but many Koreans view it essentially as an American entity.
If you're going to post a bunch of news stories that are all on the same webpage, just make one post that includes all of the stories.
Just a suggestion.
People complain about how Destination Freedom is too long and how most of the topics don't interest them. This way they get to pick and choose. It also makes the discussion threads easier to navigate.
Greetings, all...
Just thought I'd give a quick rundown of when I spent yesterday in NYC. With a nice long holiday weekend, it was only natural that I spend a day in the city.
I drove up the NJ Turnpike to Jersey City, where I parked in a garage next to the Pavonia/Newport PATH station and took PATH the rest of the way into Manhattan. Arriving at 33rd Street, I walked down Seventh Avenue to around 14th Street to look around in some furniture stores in that area. I then walked east until I found myself at Union Square, where I browsed around the farmer's market and some of the holiday-themed booths that are set up near the subway entrance.
Feeling a few raindrops on my head, I decided to head into the subway, and took the (R) train up to 5th Avenue/59th Street and check out the holiday shopping crowds. I walked around a bit up there, poking my head into St. Thomas Church and St. Patrick's Cathedral before crossing the street and checking out the ice skating rink and Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center. Down in the concourse level of the RCA Building, I was very pleased to find one of those cool Pret A Manger shops that I saw all over London. Here's hoping that more of those open up in the US.
From Rockefeller Center, I boarded a (D) train of R-68's up to Columbus Circle, where I transferred to a northbound (1) train of R-62's. I got off at 110th Street and grabbed a burger at The West End before heading over to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine for Evening Prayer. St. John the Divine, of course, was as magnificent as always, and it was hard for me to pull myself away from there. But I couldn't stick around forever, and being in a somewhat ponderous and brooding mood at the moment, decided to take a walk down Broadway.
How far down Broadway from 111th Street? Well, at first I decided to try to make it down to my old high school friend's neighborhood around 86th Street, which would make a nice healthy walk. Once there, I decided to continue on to Columbus Circle. Once at Columbus Circle, I figured Times Square wasn't too far away, so what the hell...
About two hours later, I finally found myself down at Canal Street with two very sore feet. That's right, a non-stop walk down Broadway from 111th to Canal Street. I parted Broadway and walked east on Canal over into Chinatown, and walked around some of the narrow side steets of Chinatown for a while. What a cool neighborhood at night, with all the shops facing the sidewalk and all the neon and colors... It was like something straight out of the movie Blade Runner. The coolest thing about New York City, I've found, is that no matter how many times I go there, on each visit I always come across something new and interesting.
By this point, as you can imagine, my feet are killing me, and I decided I wouldn't mind riding around on the subway for a while before I head back home. I realized that I had still never seen the infamous Chambers Street station on the BMT, so I naturally headed down in that direction.
Finally, in front of City Hall and nearly at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, I ducked into the subway station and ended one incredibly long walk: From the Cathedral of St. John the Divine to City Hall, with only one stop at a Starbucks in SoHo to use the restroom and grab a latte. This was probably at least as long as the walk I took on my first-ever visit to NYC, from the High Street station in Brooklyn across the Brooklyn Bridge, to the World Trade Center, and then up the East Side of Manhattan to around 86th Street and across Central Park to my friend's place on Amsterdam Avenue. Damn, there have certainly been a ton of changes since there: The WTC is gone, my friend now lives back in Florida, and I've been through about a million changes in my own life.
Once inside the Chambers Street station, all I can say is: Wow. I was very impressed to find that it was all it's been cracked up to be here on SubTalk. If Detroit had a real subway, I'm sure it would look something like Chambers. After a short wait, I grabbed a (J) train of R-40M's headed toward Jamaica. This was my first time on this area of the NYC subway, so I decided to do some exploring, nevermind the fact that it was now pushing 10:00 PM.
We went through the Canal Street station, which I see is now the topic of discussion on another thread, and also the Essex Street Station. It was only this evening, after looking around on this site, that I found out what it was I saw off to the right-hand side of the train as we passed through: the old trolley terminal.
We then headed across the Williamsburg Bridge, which made the first time I had been across the Willy-B. It seems to have a very interesting configuration, with each of the two roadways divided down the middle by the bridge structure.
Once on the Brooklyn Side, we passed some cool old loft buildings as we slowly made our way down the line. At Myrtle Avenue, I saw a train of R-143's for the first time ever, waiting on the other track as an (M) shuttle. I decided to take the (J) to Broadway Junction, where I would take the (L) back into Manhattan and transfer to PATH at 14th Street.
Out at Broadway Junction, I went upstairs to wait for the inbound (L) train, and was very pleased when a train of R-143's pulled in. My impressions: This must have been a very new trainset, as it still had that "new car smell". The interior didn't seem as harsh as that on the R-142's, and the sounds reminded me a lot of the M4's on Philly's Market-Frankfort Line. The only real negative was that stupid Mr. Ed voice that announces when the doors are closing. Somehere around Lorimer Street, I was cursed at by a drunken wino.
I got off at 6th Avenue and transferred to the PATH train, and drove home from Pavonia/Newport without incident.
This was hopefully the last major trip in my infamous 1986 Trans Am, as I'm currently shopping for a new car and hope to have one sometime this coming week. I'll let everybody know what I end up with.
That's all for now...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I thought the same thing when I visited Chambers St, I was greeted by a pile of garbage and vomit at the foot of the stairs to one of the platforms. But looking through the disrepair and shit (hard to do), did you find that Chambers St is actually a nice station? Some major cleaning work, and it could be very grand.
Rob, when you get back to Atlanta send my regards to Saxby and Sonny. Tell them and your fellow Georgians they did real good work last month.
I'm already in the Land of ATL. I was recalling the last time I was in NYC, which was last year. As for S&S, no comment :-)
Aw Rob, I can tell you're not as happy as I am.
St. John the Divine, of course, was as magnificent as always, and it was hard for me to pull myself away from there.
On your next trip, let me encourage you to visit St. Barts on Park Ave. @ 50th Street. Though somewhat smaller than St. John the Divine, it is magnificent in its own right. Although the exterior is pretty basic Romanesque, the interior is full of architectural marvels. I'm also a big fan of the Rector there, who gives most thoughtful sermons, especially in these times.
Keystone Pete
>>>I was very pleased to find one of those cool Pret A Manger shops that I saw all over London.<<<
They are opening them at a rapid pace, they just opened one near where I work. I think they are great.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, Dave...you had a FULL DAY in NYC!
[Somehere around Lorimer Street, I was cursed at by a drunken wino.]
Could've been a SubTalker on a binge...LOL!
>>How far down Broadway from 111th Street? Well, at first I decided to try to make it down to my old high school friend's neighborhood around 86th Street, which would make a nice healthy walk. Once there, I decided to continue on to Columbus Circle. Once at Columbus Circle, I figured Times Square wasn't too far away, so what the hell...<<
Addictive, isnt it? I once walked from 63rd/ Lex to Canal/ Bowery. You dont realize exactly how long it is while you'r doing it
But watch out!
Last May, I went for a substantial hike with a friend at Bear Mountain, and then strolled around Brooklyn Heights and downtown Brooklyn, finally crossing the Brooklyn Bridge. The next morning we walked from Wall Street to the Battery and then meandered up to 14th and 8th, and that night I walked another mile and change.
I was feeling fine then, but that's when my long-term recurring knee pain began.
I quite often walk from around Canal Street up to about 57th Street and back down. It doesn't seem that long when you are doing it. It's a nice walk when the weather is nice (i.e. I wouldn't want to do it on a day like today). You can enjoy the city much better on foot. But I too sometimes get a pain in my leg the next day if I overdo it. I never had that problem years ago.....just past the 30 mark not so long ago.....I guess it doesn't get better from this age, all downhill....
Here we have an image of an R32 train signed for Coney Island
with the DOORS OPEN on BOTH sides of the car... and clearly
idle in the MIDDLE track of a station....So.... why is
there a passenger aboard this train?
It's probably the TO. looks like maybe 39th av. on the astoria el - they used to lay trains up there and before returning to service on a good weatehr day, pop open all the doors to air the train out...
That worked for me when I worked with ceiling fanned cars.
IIRC, the caption read "Beebe Avenue"
Looks like a T/O to me getting air from outside after taking a layover or something. Remember, the R32's were built w/o A/C and wasn't equipped with it until the GOH.
Also notice, the glass that covers the front route destination sign has been broken.
Oh, I now just realized that, looks like someone punched it or something.
The T/O cut a juicy one in the cab, all the passengers went into the next car for relief, and now he's sitting out waiting for the car to air out so he can proceed to the next stop.
My new wife (6 months as of last week) and I returned earlier this evening, from visiting her mom in Pittsburgh. We normally fly, as we usually just come in for a weekend. However, she is increasingly afraid of flying, and I had always wanted to take an extended Amtrak trip. We also wanted to avoid the extensive drive between the city and the airport, particularly on Thanksgiving weekend.
We took Amtrak's Three Rivers #41 on Wednesday. The ride was flawless. It left NYC on time, left Philadelphia ten minutes late, but then arrived in Pittsburgh 15 minutes early. Everyone was polite, and we enjoyed the garden burger, pizza, and red wine from the cafe. I was able to take a peak when they changed engines in Philly, and the legroom in our coach seats was plentiful. The bathrooms were functional and clean.
Today however, the 8:00 train #40 arrived promptly at 9:30, and did not depart until 10:00. We had gotten up at 5:00 to make sure we made it, and were too exhausted to even bother to ask what happened. (Besides, given that they do not receive their fair share of subsidies, I tend to feel sorry for Amtrak regardless. However, I did have to hold my tongue when they came around for tickets. I was tempted to say, "Sorry, I only have tickets for the -8:00- train!") I think they made up about half an hour by the time we got to Penn, but was too tired to notice. What I did notice however was that only half the bathrooms were operational, and the other half stunk to hell. (I know, I know, it's the customers who use them, but, yecccch!)
Sorry, no pictures - I was too preoccupied with my laptop, on which I was typing an unrelated school paper, during the ride. Also, my wife couldn't care less about rolling stock. We had a square coach car going there, which appeared to have been recently renovated, and were in one of those roundish coach cars coming back. (I have an unexplainable preference for the rounder ones, anyway. - I know the subway car R classifications, but never learned the Amtrak ones.)
Though those two hours were quite aggravating, taking the train was a good decision. I was also glad to have done it, given the uncertain future of Amtrak in general, and of that line in particular.
Separately, we ate last night at the Grand Concourse, which apparently used to be Pittsburgh’s central rail station. They restored everything – it was absolutely beautiful. We sat in what used to be the main waiting room, in original wooden seats, which now have tables next to them. Quite an amazing job.
If anyone knows this off-hand, I am curious as to what those roundish Amtrak coach cars are called, and whether they are older or newer than the squarer ones that they sometimes share trains with. I noticed today that at least the windows were made by GE.
Thanks – if anyone has any more specific questions about the train or restaurant trips, I will do my best to answer them.
"Square" cars are from Amtrak's Heritage Fleet...basically, older equipment, some of which was inherited from the railroads that made up Amtrak. "Round" cars are newer rolling stock.
Round cars are the Amfleet (by Budd - based on the Metroliner shell). The four doors large windows are the Amfleet II, the two door smaller windows are the Amfleet I.
Dinning cars are usually part of the hertiage fleet.
GE developed the Lexan plastic window, which are also used in the NYC subway.
I'm surprised you didn't ask about the newer sleeping cars.
Round cars are the Amfleet (by Budd - based on the Metroliner shell). The four doors large windows are the Amfleet II, the two door smaller windows are the Amfleet I.
This is the first time I've ever found someone that knows an exterior difference between these two cars! Thanks so much!
--Brian
but he hashed the data, see my other post
Thanks - I wasn't particularly interested in the newer sleeper cars - not anymore, anyway. Before making reservations, I checked out the standard sleeper, and it would have more than tripled the cost.
Thanks to everyone, concerning the Amfleet I/II clarification. I did not know there were two categories amongst that class pf rolling stock.
a word about Amtrak sleeping car services.
Sometimes the pricing is such that you would do better to ride coach until a stop around bed time. Example lv Jesup GA northbound @ 5"30 PM NB, change to sleeper @ Florence NC 1054 PM. save thirty bucks. (miss a 'free' dinner clearly less than $30 value.
two doors large windows Amfleet II
Four doors small windows Amfleet I
cafe cars were produced in both series.
Am II's were designed for longer distance services with leg rests etc
Thanks for correcting my post. It's hard to type in the morning before the coffee kicks in.
I looked at photos just now and can't see a size difference in the windows. What dimension is bigger? Length? Width? Height?
--Brian
my reccollection--you really should chase down scale drawings in either Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman--is that Am II's had taller and wider windows. The Am I's were directly dimensioned from the Metroliner bodies, with all three featuring all electric on board amenities. I's have small windows in the vestibule doors like Metroliners, II's have vertical sliding windows large enough o reach out to pick up 'orders', make lantern signals, etc.
Thanks - I remember thinking to myself, "Hmmm...I don't remember having this much legroom on previous trips (to New England, upstate, & DC)." Now I know why.
Saturday morning I woke up to find the L train was running south of Bway Jct and there was no shuttle bus. Later on I find we have a normal schedule on the "beast". I later find that there was no major GOs throughout the system. I think only the Q and W trains in Bklyn had GOs.
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
One more thing about the L line is that from about 9:30pm Saturday night and all day Sunday there were only R143's running the line. Before 9:30pm Saturday there was only 4 R42's out at this time.
Just thought I would though in this fact.
Robert
Looks like variety on the L is soon coming to an end. I still miss the few slants there. It's funny, for a while now, whenever I ride the L (not that often anymore), I had been hoping for an R143. My hope has kind of shifted recently to getting an R42. They are still common enough that you get them often, but the day is soon approaching that we would only hope an R42 would pull into the station.
The Lex had a GO. with Uptown #6 trains running Express from 14 St to Grand Central.
During the day? It's listed online as a late night diversion.
The service advisories weren't even updated last week.
Yes, during the day. I was rather surprised to hear about it on the PA since there wasn't a single sign on the whole 6 line. They did do a good job with the announcements though. It seemed they were doing work on the local track at Grand Central.
I think there were no major GO's because it has been the Thnaksgiving weekend.
>>Saturday morning I woke up to find the L train was running south of Bway Jct and there was no shuttle bus.<<
I was lucky too. The weather was nice and sunny except for a few clouds here and there. I parked at the Muni lot in Rockaway Pkwy. I rode the (L) to Atlantic Ave and back. I surveyed the progress for the reconfiguration project. I noticed the new signal for the northbound track that was't there last time I visited. There were some contractors working and nobody questioned me for taking photos.
Rode back to Rockaway Pkwy. and drove to Glenmore Ave and photographed the soon to be abandoned Snediker Ave "el" with R-143's on it. Drove back to Snediker where the "el" curves off the Van Sinderin "el" and took another shot of 143's making the curve. Then I ran out of film ! Day over.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was there last Monday and Tuesday with my camcorder doing the same thing.
You probably weren't questioned because when I was there, I *was* questioned by a manager of one of the scrap metal recyclers in the area, telling me that some of his workers were "getting nervous" seeing someone with a video recorder in the area. I assured him I had no interest in scrap metal (unless it was a subway car being scrapped :), told him I was videotaping the section of El there because it was coming down soon, and that I appreciated and understood why he came out to talk to me. I then told him that there would be other people coming to do the same thing I was.
--Mark
" I think only the Q and W trains in Bklyn had GOs."
The W in Astoria had a GO on Sunday only. It really surprised a friend of mine in Astoria because there were no posters up on Saturday.
The Q was supposed to be running express to Manhattan but it had normal service Sat/Sun in both directions.
The Q line G.O. in Brooklyn was cancelled.
This morning I boarded an MBTA (Boston) Red Line 1700-series train to find new stickers on all the doors. They're on each door's window pane near the top, both inside and outside. "THESE DOORS DO NOT RECYCLE"
The non-railfan may wonder which meaning is correct:
1. (active verb sense) While the trains are layed-up at night, the doors don't take the opportunity to look around the car for scrap metal and paper than can be separated from the other trash.
2. (passive verb sense) After the car's 35-year life (or the individual door panel's, whichever comes first), the glass, rubber, and metal from which the door is fabricated cannot be reused for any purpose whatsoever.
Obviously the true railfan knows what the sticker is meant to mean. But on the short trip from Park Street to Kendall/MIT, while stationed at Charles/MGH, the doors opened; then started to close but reopened rapidly then closed shut. So the true railfan must be wrong.
>>> They're on each door's window pane near the top, both inside and outside. "THESE DOORS DO NOT RECYCLE" <<<
Notify the Green party. They will start a letter writing campaign. It is definitely a poor example that the MBTA is setting. Next thing you know they will no longer separate glass, metal and plastic. :-)
Tom
Are the 111 middle putins on Mondays only because of the weekend GOs or is it a daily thing now?
It is done on a daily basit becouse there are to many R143's in ENY wanting to be burn tested for service. ENY shoud be getting back to normel once more R40-42's are shiped to CIY. I sometime might have to make a lay up to 111st Middle #2 (The one away from the station with me J job on Monday night. I have been working on crossing the track on the ENY leadm since I know it's been awile since I had to do it. But since they have been doing it I have not had Leyup there.
Robert
and maybe the rehab at met with 3 tracks always out.
I was told that at one point 111 was so disused you could hit the trip as long as the signal was for you and it would be no problem the stop arm would get stuck all the time.
Well my biggest problem with 111st middle was walking on the old wooden boards that were up there. In the past mouth they now put down the fiberglass walkways. I am a big guy at 300lb so you can see why the old boards scared me to death.
Robert
I guess that you have to walk alongside the third rail on one side of the center track, and between two third rails on the other side of the center track. Perhaps the main line third rails are on the outside of the track now. I am really leery of the third rail.
I often wondered how those guys used to make up and break down trains of gate cars at 111th St before 1950. They had to be down on the track level because of the Van Dorn couplers and the cables and hoses to connect. Back in those days there were no outside walkways on the outside tracks, and both main line third rails were toward the center track.
The half rotted away ties are still there.
Don't you just flag the next guy down for a pickup?
Ties with bog gaps in between some of them. The scariest thing about that area to me was the fact that there is a hill to the north, and trains come flying over it.
I swear that middle track's ties are original 1917 vintage. It's in a sorry state.
In as sorry shape as the original rotting woodend crossovers over the "express" track at Wyckoff on the M.
Express train pulls into 34th Street (Broadway) uptown and sits behind the homeball.
The T/O gets frustrated and gets on the radio to City Hall Master Tower.
Q Train: "Cityhall come into train on A4 waiting for the lineup at 34t St".
City Hall: "Train at 34th St, we can't make you out what are your call letters".
Q: "Believe it or not this is the 7:20 Brighton (its 8:10), but you know I punched for the line up"
CH: "Yah we know 7:20, just couldn't make out what type of train you were, your cosmetically challenged"
Q: "(Laughing) Ohh there is a camera at 34th Street?? This is an R40M or Modified that's why, (red/red goes green/green) thank you".
CH: "Have a good day (laughing)"
See not just railfans get confused at the car types...
Cute.
I guess the person in the tower didn't expect to see an R-40M running on the "Q" line.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't know why not. They've been running there on and off for the last month.
Maybe there was a new person there.
#3 West End Jeff
What difference does that make? Why should the TW/O route trains based on how they look? How does he tell an R-68(A) Q from an R-68(A) W? It's not like R-40M's have never been seen at DeKalb before -- the M stops at DeKalb, too.
If a person works there long enough and starts to go by the appearance of the train rather than by reading the sign, he'll think that an R-40M for example will always run on a certain line, rather than paying attention to the sign displayed on the train, or perhaps double checking to be absolutely sure. You've got to remember that some people are stupid.
#3 West End Jeff
We were originally talking about 34/B'way on the express track northbound. Normally this track sees three trains - Q Circle, Q Diamond, and W - with mostly 3 types of cars - R68, R68A, R40. There are two buttons on the Route Request Box - Express and Local. there is a camera pointed at the front end of the train. Between the T/O punching Express and the camera showing a Q, there is NO GOOD EXCUSE for not supplying the line-up immediately.
What happens when the occasional R40 W wanders by? Should the TW/O send it Express because that's the way the R40s usually go?
And what about when an R-68 or R-68A wanders by? It could be a Q (express) or a W (local).
The tower was just confirming the punch, CYA to the max at the TA. Making sure the T/O punched correctly and that the TW/O gives the right lineup in case the T/O punched incorrectly.
Maybe they didn't see the diamond Q on the screen or the T/O was slightly off the mark.
This is at 34th Street under the control of City Hall Tower, not DeKalb which is controlled by DeKalb Tower.
As long as the TW/O blindly obeys the punches, it would take a double error on the part of the T/O to take a wrong lineup (punch the wrong button and then accept the lineup). It happens at times, of course, but aren't there enough safeguards without the TW/O trying to add on an unreliable verification system?
I don't know what they are told to do in the tower. The camera was installed for some reason and it seems (via the conversation on the radio) they are using it to verify the punch of the T/O.
No they shouldn't send it the way the r-40s normally go. They should look at the sign and send it where the "W"s normally go.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>>You've got to remember that some people are stupid. <<<
UHH, GEE, really. 8=/
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There are some stupid people in the world and I've come across some of them. The stupidest people on the subway are the ones who literally go subway surfing. They're the ones that wind up six feet under almost every time.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>The stupidest people on the subway are the ones who literally go subway surfing<<
...and that has WHAT to do with this thread?
Peace,
ANDEE
I just thought that I would make a pun on it. I'll admit that it is sick humor.
#3 West End Jeff
For the record: My "handle" has nothing to do with riding on the top of trains. It has to do with the fact that I love the "SUBWAY" and "SURF" the internet.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm aware of that. I probably made a bad, and also a sick pun since I have a sick sense of humor anyway at times.
#3 West End Jeff
Or the person came over from A division.
Yeah don't know their alphabet. Only 1 ~ 9, give them two numbers
and they go DAH!!!
;-) Sparky
But at least their tracks go 1, 2, 3, 4, not this silly 1, 3, 4, 2 stuff in the B.
That definition is what has been established policy of the railway
in particular.
At the Shoreline Trolley Museum, our layup and relay tracks are
all south of the mailine. Therefore, when track numbers are
assigned to carhouses, they read from right to left, when
facing the building westbound. When facing eastbound, the
track numbers read left to right. We enter particular buildings
from both directions, so when facing west you have a reversal.
Also our signals are numbered ODD eastbound and EVEN westbound.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most multi track railways
numbered ODD eastbound and EVEN westbound or visa~versa?
;-) Sparky
Nice. That R40M is a real fighter.
Funny -- I rode that very interval. It was indeed a train of R-40Ms (north motor 4475, for those who didn't believe me :-)). DeKalb Tower held us outside of DeKalb Avenue, and I couldn't figure out why and it seemed the Train Operator couldn't either -- didn't seem to be anything right in front of us. Maybe we were a "stealth" train.
David
Lou, I guess that's what happens when ya get stuck with Eastern Division equipment on the Southern Division...:)
Who were the manufacturer's of these three classes of cars for Metro North.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
GE, GE and Kaowisaki (or however your spell it).
M-4's (the 8900 series) was built by Tokyu
M-6's (the 9000 series) was built by Morrison-Knudsen (sp?)
Thank You!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Any time
Wait, I thought Kawasaki built the M-6s,a s someone said in another post...
Also, I didn't know the M-2s and M-4s were GE and not Budd...interesting..
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Third Avenue El
GE was the main contractor; Budd was the subcontractor for the carbodies.
David
So was the Arrow's for the NJT/SEPTA.
Maybe they are a division of Kawasaki-I don't know. Signs on the cab doors on the 8900 series say Toyku. That's all I can say.
Tokyu Car and Kawasaki are two different companies.
David
Bzzzzt!!! wrong!
But thanks for playing.
The M-2s were built by GE (70's)
The M-4 were built by Tokyu (80's)
The M-6's were built by M-K (1996)
Of the three classes, the 2 is the lightest (110,000 lbs?), the 4 is a bit heavier, the 6 is a little heavier (130,000 lbs?). IMHO, the 2 rides the best, though, followed by the 6, then the 4. The 2 is in 2 car pairs, the 4 and 6's normally 3 car groups, though they supposedly could be coupled into longer trains.
All three use pretty much the same POS GE propulsion system that's unreliable as hell, bulky, inefficient, and way way way more complex then it should have been. Just a block diagram is enough to make your head spin.
Correction:
M-2 was built in 1971-73 by Budd.
M-4 was built in 1988-89 by Budd/MK.
M-6 was built in 1992 by Kinki-Sharyo/Tokyu Car.
Ha, you did worse than me! At least I knew that the M2's were done by GE in 1972 with 630 hp per car. I read the FRA blue card in the cab :)
Just talking points, as spin free as possible.
PRO: The model board at Euclid Avenue shows 76th Street station. (Probably the best piece of positive evidence.)
PRO: Prominent rail historian Dave Rogoff drew a map of the 76th Street station track layout. Other maps show leads to the station.
PRO: The 1941 Hagstrom Map shows the line under construction to 76th Street and beyond.
CON: Hagstrom was big on including UC items, both rail and highway. The 1948 Brooklyn map (year 76 was alleged to have been completed) does NOT show it.
PRO: A usually reliable source has been told by others that they visited the station.
CON: Second- or third-hand information. The original sources cannot be questioned.
PRO: Track leads run to a bulkhead that certainly ran to 76th Street.
CON: There is no door or evidence of a door in that bulkhead. This is atypical, to say the least. Underground infrastructure must have access for maintenance or in case of emergency, such as a water main break.
CON: There is no street evidence of a subway. No manholes, no room for station entrances, no gratings. Even the ancient (sealed 1850s) Cobble Hill tunnel retain manhole access.
CON: No credible explanation has been offered to indicate why a completed station would be sealed "secretly."
CON: Kramer's Building the Independent System has no mention of 76th Street.
CON: Cunningham & DeHart have no mention of 76th Street.
CON: The Board of Transportation multi-annual report for the 3-1/2 years ended June 30, 1949 (time-span of the alleged completion) prominently mention the completed extension to Euclid Avenue and Pitkin Yard. No mention of 76th Street.
CON: The above report also lists project T-10, the extension to Grant Avenue and the BMT Fulton L, and indicates that this is to be the eastward extension of the Fulton subway. This is during the period that 76th Street was supposed to have been built, and shows that the intent was to use the elevated line at least six years before the connection was built and completed.
CON: The 1953 First Annual Report of the New York City Transit Authority also talks of the Liberty Avenue project, and no mention of 76th Street.
PRO: Believing that 76th Street, Bigfoot and Atlantis exist is a lot more fun than thinking they don't.
CON: The only known picture of a train in 76th Street has a Roswell Alien at the train controls and Elvis as the Conductor.
I'd have to say that the cons well outweigh the pros!
Good Points, and at this point your last few lines kind of sums 76th Street up....ALiens, Roswell, Bermuda Triangle, 76th Street, Bigfoot, all could be made into a Discovery Channel Special.
Well, apparently without 76th Street, there wouldn't be too much to talk about here, because there are literally hundreds of posts out at SubTalk on the subject. Well for those interested, I did a simple search using 76 and found all these threads that have to do with 76th Street. Apparently, it first surfaced in January 1999, dosed off for a while, a brief resurrection in July 2001, and kind of revived in it's current force this spring, with the pinnacle probably being during the hiatus here, where Harry's TOSOTT board had about 7 or 8 threads going on about the subject during that time (not included in this list below). Of course that was started around April 1st when Joe Brennan put his joke page on his site.
Well here it is, and I'm sure the list is much longer, 76th Street is buried in many other threads also, where it comes up under different thread titles. I'm sure this list is just a sampling:
76th Street Station on the A Line
SUBTALK TRIP TO 76th STREET STATION
SECRET STATION: 76th & Pitkin A Line
76th Street IND Station
Tracks after Euclid Ave
76 St. Station – IND
76 St. Station - IND DOES EXIST.....I HAVE PROOF
76th Street Station: I Totally Fell For It
76 St. Station – IND
What's 76 st.?
76 Street again!
76st rears its ugly head
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
At 76th Street?
Where is Geraldo Rivera when you need him?
At 76th Street?
Good One! :)
No, this is a case for Art Bell!
I know right :o), sheesh we could sure use some controversy with Rivera right now.
>>"Good Points, and at this point your last few lines kind of sums 76th Street up....ALiens, Roswell, Bermuda Triangle, 76th Street, Bigfoot, all could be made into a Discovery Channel Special."<<
I think it would reach more viewers on FOX since it is a broadcast network & almost everyone has it but would work on Discovery[maybe they could air repeats of the special]. It would be another installment of a World's Wildest show called myth or fact[FOX] or "Investigating Legends:Fact or fiction"[Discovery]. Ratings would probably be high since I know a majority of Subtalkers would watch it if it became a real special, especially the "honorable mention" of 76 St in there ;-). Hey GP, you should send that idea to FOX seeing they love to air stuff like this, they just might find airtime :o) & if Geraldo hosted it, it would be a sure ratings winner!
Getting back on topic, wow this subject has been going on for THREE years with no resolution, the way its going, this looks like at least another year in the making unless this topic dies out or some type of evidence[like a station shell] is proven.
"CON: There is no door or evidence of a door in that bulkhead. This is atypical, to say the least. Underground infrastructure must have access for maintenance or in case of emergency, such as a water main break. "
the recently (perhaps a year or 2 ago) sealed 9th av el 'polo ground shuttle' tunnel in the bronx by yankee stadium contains no doors on either end to allow access to inspect it. Unless there is a manhole I'm not aware of, there is no access for maintenance or in case of an emergency.
the recently (perhaps a year or 2 ago) sealed 9th av el 'polo ground shuttle' tunnel in the bronx by yankee stadium contains no doors on either end to allow access to inspect it. Unless there is a manhole I'm not aware of, there is no access for maintenance or in case of an emergency.
Correct me if I am wrong (Yeah... fat chance), but...
The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally.
Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it.
Still... I dare say that there may be some access to it somewhere, even if both ends are solidly capped. (ie a personel access port~ formerly called a MANHOLE).
Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel.
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of.
Elias
Refilling a dug hole with concrete would not, IMHO, be such a good idea. First you are pouring an enormous amount of processed material litterally down the drain, and you may as well spend that money on enron stock. Second, concrete isn't rock, and if the tunnel was bored out of solid rock, then the concrete plug and the rock might have different expansion rates. If you are dealing with such a massive amount of concrete, surrounded by an equally massive rock hill, then possible fissures and stuff could appear if there was, say, a very warm fall, followed by a brutally cold winter, and then a very early, warm spring. Such things could be very bad news for the building foundations above it. Also, if the concrete is less dense than the surrounding rock (what was it, granite? or some sort of sandstone?), then the concrete plug will slowly "float" to the surface, like rocks buried in a garden. The more-dense rock will force the less-dense concrete plug up out of the ground over the course of a few centuries, again, causing large damage to the foundations of the surrounding buildings.
A much better solution would be to just drive extra supports between the tunnel roof and the track bed, where the trains would have run, and then sealed either end. And you're right, some sort of person-hole would be needed to allow access should a portion of the tunnel fail somehow, or something else happen like that.
"The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally. "
Better hope for seepage, since both ends are concrete sealed shut. Maybe if there is a manhole (more on that below) we can drop some fish in there and have the world's biggest fish tank.
"Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it. "
Would it not then be the city's responsibility to ensure that it does not cave in one day? Yes, it's highly unlikely, but...
"Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel. "
I've never bothered to look, though I do recall reading a bit from people who walked through it, none of whom mentioned any manhole access, or any emergency exits.
Offhand, there's no other tunnel in that area that I know of that comes close to it. Even if it did, the likelihood of an interconnection is severely limited. Is 60th st. connected to park av tunnel? how about 53rd? (63rd lower level will eventually go under park av MNCR deep bore, though I don't think they're planning to connect them other than in GCT) the L line to the ENY freight tunnel? the Grand st. shuttle to the Bowery JMZ? B/D to the croton aquaduct?
There's a lot of tunnels in this town that pass next to over and under other tunnels, but rarely do they connect.
How many deep bored tunnels have you seen with manholes? I've been through several, and the most I've seen have been air shafts for diesel exhaust, which did not contain ladders or any other provisions for emergency access.
"if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes. "
Perhaps from the west end, with a bit of skillful driving and a ramp onto the trackway, or a skillful operator who can manuver the arm of the backhoe in a limited clearance area. Though I'd like to see you drive a backhoe up to the east end.
The plugs on either end look pretty solid and would offer the FDNY quite a workout and test the durability of their handtools. I've seen them take out cinderblock walls in 1-3 minutes, but the plugs on either end look a lot thicker than just cinderblock.
In a case of emergency, 30 minutes not good. I'd venture a guess that it would take a bit more than that to get in if there is no manhole.
"Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of. "
Perhaps, though I rather doubt they'd spend a ton of cash on such a project though.
I hope you're assumption that there is a manhole is correct, though given the above i doubt it highly.
To tie back to the original subject. if 76th was built and abandoned, mabe it was given back to the city, and given the above, the city might not give a hoot about it. The abandoned LIRR Atlantic Av tunnel was left unseen for ages until Bob Diamond came along.
The abandoned LIRR Atlantic Av tunnel was left unseen for ages until Bob Diamond came along.
But it was not unknown, and there was access.
Atlantic Avenue (Cobble Hill) Tunnel
I highly doubt it was accessible, either that or kevin's got his story wrong and bob didn't have to do any digging from the manhole to the rest of the tunnel (which is a short dug out area filled with dirt):
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/tunnel/tunnel.html
The authories, so far as I know, got in via a hole they dug from a neighborning building basement, with the hole still present in the brickwork of the tunnel ceiling. At least that's how the legand goes.
As for th ERA guys in the 50's, use your own logic here: where are they? did they take photos of it? how did they get in? when did they go in? this isn't too different than the guy that claimed to be in the part of the tunnel that is still inaccessible, who swore that there's a steam engine in there... if so - where is the "proff"?
I don't know if 76th is there. if it is, it is, if not, who cares. All I'm saying is it that if it is there, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a tunnel was sealed up and largely forgotten.
As for th ERA guys in the 50's, use your own logic here: where are they? did they take photos of it? how did they get in? when did they go in? this isn't too different than the guy that claimed to be in the part of the tunnel that is still inaccessible, who swore that there's a steam engine in there... if so - where is the "proff"?
I knew all three gentlemen mentioned, George Horn, Martin Schachne and Dave Rogoff, personally. Martin Schachne described the visit to me personally. Marty was something of an expert on abandoned tunnels. He showed me some of the visible Second System structures and also described the Grand Central loop, also visited and photographed by Rogoff. He never mentioned 76th Street either.
These three were among the most prominent electric railfans of their time. Ask anyone on this board (like LarryRedbirdR33) who is old enough and they'll tell you the same.
Rogoff's article was originally published contemporaneously to the event--i.e., about 25 years before Bob Diamond.
And the point is--even if you doubt the veracity of the "visit" the fact of the rportage proves that the fact of the tunnel was known decades before Bob rediscovered it and therefore it was NEVER "lost."
As to the steam engine--almost certainly not. I believe that assertion is based on circumstantial evidence as the tunnel was used
for horse-drawn transportation for a short while after steam quit. I don't believe anyone has claimed to have actually seen this engine.
And you don't bolster a current argument by attacking the veracity of other's experience if you don't know the issue better than they.
No one said it was 'lost'. just that it wasn't accessible for awhile...
I'm sure they were/are good folks that got to see lots of stuff most people did not if what you say is to be believed, but I haven't seen the article, photos, etc - so this information is second hand to me, and just as the witness accounts of 76th are second or thirdhand with no article or photos provided, there's little reason for me to believe it.
I haven't seen the article, photos, etc - so this information is second hand to me, and just as the witness accounts of 76th are second or thirdhand with no article or photos provided, there's little reason for me to believe it.
But it is not second-hand to me, and I've identified and vouched for the souurces, so you are engaging in solipsism.
hardly an engagement in solipsism. It's more of simple scientific method. If you can't direct me to some sorta article/photos/something that would prove they went, do you really expect me to believe what is second hand info (to me) via the internet? (on subtalk no less? :o) heh heh!).
I'll have to try to do some of my own homework on your sources though, anyone doing that sort of exploration back then must have been an interesting person to know... lord knows I'm just a bit into looking around and documenting such spaces myself... did they do much writing or publishing of their 'work'?
It's nothing personal, i just like to see lots of sources. in this case that just doesn't seem possible at the moment, so it's best dropped least we want to drive each other nuts over it...
Dave Rogoff was one of the best researchers ever, he was the Sprague Librarian at the ERA until his very untimely death in 1969 (IIRC). He helped other researchers (including me) and published quite a bit in the NY Division Bulletin.
Martin Schachne was very knowledgeable and had a great collection. He was a TA employee and had access to a great deal of inside information. He provided a lot of research and other help to me and others (he went along to help photograph and take notes when we wrote the SIRT book) but AFAIK he wrote very little himself.
George Horn was a sort of super railfan. An NYC motorman (trolley, then subway, I believe), he retired in his 40s, then went to SF to become a cable gripman, found it a little too taxing and beacme a trolley motorman (again). He both researched and wrote. I think articles partly or completely by him are in old copies of ERA Headlights and Electric Railroads.
Very good company indeed. I don't know if we have such a trio today. At least not acting "in concert." :)
"No one said it was 'lost'. just that it wasn't accessible for awhile..."
Instead of accessable, the word should be forgotten.
YOU can say it was 'forgotten'. I'll stick with inaccessable. thanks.
the Centre st tunnel DOES have a outside the station mini staircase or latter[ at the Bowery station]where the Grand st shuttle passes overhead....[dont ask me how I found this out....it was years ago and a friend of mine went snoopin' where he shouldn't have]
When I toured the Polo Grounds tunnel there was a short stairway which apparently led into the building above at the east end. There was a sealed steel door at the top. Presumably this could be used to access the tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That doorway (it's in the ground on the platform, right?) is still there, padlocked. At the end of the platform, going westward, the tunnel is plugged by concrete.
On the sedgewick av. platform there's a hole in the south side wall, but it doesn't go anywhere.
That doorway (it's in the ground on the platform, right?) is still there, padlocked. At the end of the platform, going westward, the tunnel is plugged by concrete.
That door may have been part of what used to be an entrance from the Anderson Avenue side of the Jerome/Anderson station. When I co-led a tour of the area in late 1999, that space was occupied by a laundromat.
On the sedgewick av. platform there's a hole in the south side wall, but it doesn't go anywhere
It used to lead to an entrance on Sedgwick Avenue. In fact, if you walk in that area of Sedgwick Avenue, you can see where the staircase led to the street.
--Mark
No, it's on the platform inside the tunnel at the Jerome/Anderson end... there was a concrete block structure of some sort with a wooden staircase that had been partially burned inside... at the top of the staircase (only about 12 steps or so) there was a steel door that appeared to lead into the building above. It appeared to be fully sealed from the other side, possibly plated over (no light visible around the edges), but it was definitely a door.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PoloTunnel is a bore through a solid rock, rather than a cut and cover construction, It is high up on a mountain side, so any leakage would just pour on out or seep into the ground naturally.
That tunnel ws bored through a natural rock ridge in that part of the Bronx.
Further... The TA undoubtedly gave that ROW back to the city and is no longer responsible for it.
Supposedly, it is "owned" by the landlords of the buildings above it.
Still... I dare say that there may be some access to it somewhere, even if both ends are solidly capped. (ie a personel access port~ formerly called a MANHOLE).
Having been through the tunnel, I doubt this very much. There were no rooftop access hatches of any kind. The only item we did see was a hand-stenciled sign in the Manhattan-bound tube indicating the location of Woodycrest Avenue.
Just because YOU can't find the manhole does not mean that it is not there: ie a manhole inside of another tunnel.
There are only 2 tunnels, side by side.
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
It would have been interesting to see how this process was accomplished, since the east end is above you, while the west end is below you.
Or it could (unlikely... but could) be sealed solid concrete from one end to the other, returning the hillside to its natural pre construction condition sort of.
As you already said, not likely. It was simply plugged on both ends.
--Mark
Besides, the seals that they put on it were to keep kids varments and vagrents out, if the city needed to get in, a backhoe could open it in under 30 minutes.
It would have been interesting to see how this process was accomplished, since the east end is above you, while the west end is below you.
They hoisted the equipment into the tunnel and sealed it from the inside. The equipment and workers are still inside the tunnel, along with the steam locomotive that's supposed to be in the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel.
Prove I'm wrong. ;-)
Isn't there also supposed to be a buried LIRR engine somewhere on Long Island, too. West Hempstead seems to ring a bell.
Allegedly a few Brooklyn Forney engines were buried as part of
the landfill around Coney Island yard.
Paul: You've made some excellent points, but consider this. If we didn't have the 76 Street Station Mystery what would we be talking about? Do you remember the long series of post expressing angst over the closing of the men's room in the Stillwell Avenue Terminal?
Meanwhile what about the Hillside Avenue Station on the Hillside Avenue Extension. We have a track map for that one too.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, speaking of Stillwell, no one seems so much interested in the "lost" lower level controls of that station, and I've been challenged as to whether they even existed, despite the fact that I was there in person.
Ditto I've been challenged on the original layout of switches on the J Line west of Marcy, though I rode those many times too.
Also see my most recent reply to The Joe in this thread, re: Marty, Dave Rogoff and George Horn. Back me up, Fellah! :o)
Excuse me? I expressed great interest in the lower level.
As for the men's room, it's really closed now, along with that entire section of the station. That also means that the station is temporarily not ADA-compliant, since the elevator is in the closed mezzanine. (Time to update the map again!)
Excuse me? I expressed great interest in the lower level.
Nothing personal, David. It seemed for a while though (several years back, maybe) people treated me like one of those guys with "The World is Coming to an End" signs when I mentioned the lower level.
Station design is one of the topics that interests me most, especially when it comes to sections of stations that are closed now.
Speaking of which, do you know anything about a former south mezzanine and/or crossunder at Fulton/Nassau?
Speaking of which, do you know anything about a former south mezzanine and/or crossunder at Fulton/Nassau?
Nope. Sorry.
There was an underpass that connected the 2 BMT platforms at Fulton St. It was located north of the current connection to the IND lower mezzazine. It was a deserted area and it was a dangerious location.
Thanks -- that's the one I'm looking for. Do you know when it closed? Did it also have a street exit? Is there any remaining evidence?
It was closed when TA started rebuilding the station. I can't think of the name of the street. I think it was the first block north of Fulton St. I don't have my map with me. If you can break thru the tiling, you might be able to find it. But I don't think there is any evidence of it left in the street. Then again I haven't been over there in a while.
That would be Vessey Street, and I don't recall an exit to Vessey from the BMT platform at Fulton St. I do remember one at John St. SOUTH of Fulton.
There is an exit at the south end of the station which is still open part time. But we're talking about an underpass that was toward the north end of the station. And there was a part time booth there that was at Vessey as you said. The site has been tiled over. Maybe there is something upstairs on the street level still there.
That's my thing also. I love the trains, but the station infastructure can keep me fascinated for hours. Actually that's how I originally found NYCSubway.org back around 1998. I don't know which I found first, but I was doing a search about "abandoned stations" in a search engine, and found Joe Brennan's site, which linked to this one (or it could have been the other way around), but either way, I've been in heaven ever since.
Ditto I've been challenged on the original layout of switches on the J Line west of Marcy, though I rode those many times too.
Also see my most recent reply to The Joe in this thread, re: Marty, Dave Rogoff and George Horn
Paul: You were already an established expert in rapid transit when I was just starting to come into the field. I well remember Marty Schachne and George Horn. Most of the posters may not know this but Marty and George (both TA employees) obtained the necessary permits to vist virtually all the abandoned and unused tunnels and stations of the transit system. They visted the South 4 Avenue Line Station that crosses over the Crosstown Line and even downed hip-waders to explore the water filled tunnels of the 40 Street turnouts from the 4 Avenue Line. Unfortunately this was done in the late fiftes BS (Before sub-talk) and there never was any written record of what they saw save the verbal recollections passed on to you and me and a few others. As I said before Dave Rogoff was the foremost subway historian of his time especially in matters of subway construction. I never heard any of these men state that the 76 Street Station was built. Also these where railfans who grew up with the IND. By the time we got into it the IND was already thirty years old.
I appreciate what you say about the track layout west of Marcy Avenue. I went through a similar experience concerning the closure of the Fulton Ferry Terminal at Sands Street.
BTW where exactly where those lower level turnstiles at Stillwell? I remember a long row of turnstiles extending outward from the men's room and then there was some kind of a barrier. After that there was a second row of turnstiles which where at a somewhat lower level and more or less directly lead to Platforms C and D. This second row was removed several years ago I think.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The lower level bank of turnstiles was accessed on the Surf Avenue side to the west of the current (I should say "recent") bank of turnstiles to the upper, or "normal" level.
They were also accessed by a corridor from Stillwell under the stairway from the West End platform, if memory serves.
The lower level bank of turnstiles was accessed on the Surf Avenue side to the west of the current (I should say "recent") bank of turnstiles to the upper, or "normal" level.
They were also accessed by a corridor from Stillwell under the stairway from the West End platform, if memory serves.
Paul: Now I seem to remember them. I used to vist Stillwell Avenue Terminal back in the sixties. Sometimes several of us junior railfans would help the conductors change the rollsigns on incoming equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul: Now I seem to remember them. I used to vist Stillwell Avenue Terminal back in the sixties. Sometimes several of us junior railfans would help the conductors change the rollsigns on incoming equiptment.
With your brain making mental notes as each destination went past. ;-)
With your brain making mental notes as each destination went past. ;-)
This is true. At one time or anyother I had committed the entire rollsign reading to memory.
Larry, RedbirdR33
OK, can you still recall those BMT standard and Triplex curtain listings?:)
BMT DESTINATION SIGN LISTING
Ninth Ave.
City Hall
62nd St. B’klyn.
Bay Parkway
Coney Island
Times Square
Kings Highway
57th Street Manh’t’n.
Brighton Beach
Nassau St.
Franklin-Nassau
Franklin Av.
Prospect Park
95th Street Ft. H-ton
Queens Plaza
Whitehall St.
Broad St.
Metropolitan Av.
111th St.
Crescent St.
Jamaica
Canal St.
Chambers St.
Bowery
Canarsie
Atlantic Av.
Eastern P’kway.
8th Ave. Manh’t’n.
Myrtle Av.
6th Av. Manh’t’n.
Astoria
36th St. - 4th Ave.
Ditmas Ave.
Forest Hills - Queens
I take it that the "small" Standard roll sign, AND they appear to be in order, with Astoria->Forest Hills being the BofT-TA era additions.
Most of those make sense, but BOWERY? What in the world did they need that for?
I believe some trains terminated at Bowery in the early years of the Centre St. loop line.
How about the route signs? I have a large-format curtain, so I can check it. All of the Southern Division routes were lumped together, as were the Eastern Division routes.
Didn't they move those switches from west of Marcy to east of Marcy back around 1960?
Didn't they move those switches from west of Marcy to east of Marcy back around 1960?
Sounds just about right. IIRC, Myrtle-Chambers expresses made Marcy initially but Jamaica Expresses whistled by after the change, but later everything made Marcy.
It was a lot more fun riding the Jamaica Express before Marcy became a express stop.
No matter what anyone says, the R-16's handled that service very well in their early years.
That must have been before their get-up-and-go got up and left.:)
I think I must have felt about the R-16's the way that you felt about the R-10's.
Could be. Understand I never disliked the R-16s. Since I rode on them only twice, I couldn't really formulate an opinion one way or another.
The R-10s, of course, are another story. I rode on them every Saturday for three years and took in a CPW dash on them whenever I could. It was pure excitement. Whoever decided to assign them to the A should knighted, if not canonized.:)
I only knew the R16s on the 15-Jamaica. I don't recall any great negative feeling about them except that, because of them, I rarely rode a Srandard on that line.
I only knew the R16s on the 15-Jamaica.
I should say "mostly knew" as I rode them at one time or another on all the pre-Chrystie Eastern Division lines (except lower Myrt, or course).
Also con:
NYCT always needs as much storage space for trains as it can get. Why not use 76th St if it exists?
This is only the 2nd complete board I have seen in the few years I have been buying on ebay.
The bidding started at $300.00 and after the 2nd bid is up to $501.00 with 4 days to go. Too bad the price is more than I want to spend.
This is the highest I have seen bid on ebay for a NYC Route sign board. I think the bidding will go over $600.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4124&item=742343680&rd=1
Linked
That looks just like my IND sign box, and it has IND routes and destinations. Only the lower destination sign will have light fixtures. The holes in the top are where the light bulbs protrude down to illuminate the upper sign, and their fixtures were above the sign box and mounted to the car side itself.
Gee, and I paid something like $60.00 for my sign box back in 1980 when Shoreline had a few of them for sale.
I could have bought one back in the 1980's at Branford for $45 and I passed on it.
Who knew??
My sign box had Eastern Division roller curtains when I bought it. Luckily Shoreline also had IND curtains available, complete with mechanisms, so I picked up two of them along with an IND side route curtain w/o mechanism. I remember driving down to the sign shop via Farm River Rd. to load my car. Eddie S. noticed my bumper sticker promoting the sixth Lithuanian dance festival held in Chicago earlier that summer and shook his head (he's Lithuanian, too). Someone asked what I was doing loading that sign box, and Eddie replied, "He's building a subway car at home." I wish...
Wonder if it came out of #1208, judging by its olive green paint job.
wayne
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did. My sign box still has that mint green tint I remember seeing on R-1s and R-4s in the late 60s. No, it's not that awful pistachio green.
>>Wonder if it came out of #1208, judging by its olive green paint job<<
You could always e-mail the seller to find out.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021202/168/2shjm.html&e=8
--Brian
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/021201/170/2sgih.html&e=6
--Brian
last one, I promise :)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021201/170/2sgiw.html
--Brian
Okay, I can sort of understand the no-tranvestite policy, but what about (male-to-female) transsexuals? Especially ones who are partway through the transition, or those in a Hedwig and the Angry Inch situation.
A truly convincing transvestite would not be perceived as such, just as a bald man with a truly convincing hairpiece would not be perceived as wearing a rug.
They have this in parts of India too.
I think the word is frotage? Of course the French would have a word for it.
Gee, now the Phillipines have the guys playing stinkfinger....a couple years ago it was Seoul, Korea.
And India? Who would want to?? Ewwww.
When I was in my teens and a quite frequent user of the Brighton line (UK version!), the locals on that line used the 4-LAV units - four-car trains of which only one car had a corridor (the one with the bathroom which gave the units their code!). The other three cars had separate compartments each seating ten people, five a side, with no way in or out of them except when the train was stopped at a station. For perhaps understandable reasons, some of these were marked "Ladies only".
And others marked "Smoking Car", meaning no women or children :-D
A touchie situation, very touch and go if you ask me!
avid
Does each T/O have an assigned run by the week? Does each T/O have to spend time on reserve if someone doesn't show? Is the number of times you have to make a trip pretty much set? Hey. . .I'm curious.
no no yes
He's the one who started the whole controversy with his "joke" page.
Has anyone asked him whether this station really exists?
He believes it doesn't exist. When one of the controversies about 76th Street came up, I correspondend with him.
What I got from the correspondence was that he didn't feel it was worth his effort to go out there himself. He presented a reasoned set of arguments why he didn't believe it existed, which form in good part my own belief that it doesn't exist.
What were his arguments?
Essentially:
That there are really no truly "secret" tunnels--examples, Atlantic Avenue, Beach Pneumatic were both known to be in existence at the time of their "discovery."
That disused tunnels must be maintained (so have access)--example, the Second Ave subway sections.
And that, connected to the above, there is no visible indication from any direction that access to a 76th St. station exists or ever did exist.
In a different email (after his 76th St. "April Fool" page) he provides some Devil's Advocate arguments for people who would try to refute his "hoax." If he wouldn't want to repeat them himself, I won't do it, but it is another example of how it's easier to fool people than to debunk a story, once it gets rolling.
In fairness, he has never (AFAIK) absolutely, categorically stated "it doesn't exist," but this seems to be because, being a good researcher, he would want to run down some leads (such as looking at city records).
It is so hard to prove a negative, which is why so many bogus stories have life.
Yup, I highly believe that the station doesn't exist myself but as I said in a previous post, if there is physical evidence showig AT LEAST a shell of the station, I'll eat my words but for now the 'myth' of 76 St continues...........
You know, this isn't like looking for Iraqi weapon sites, or trying to discover what if there really are alien space craft at Area 51. If this station had really been built, it would have been a substantial project carried out by the New York City government. It is just not plausible that there wouldn't be all kinds of documentation about it - as well as people still alive who were involved with the Board of Transportation, the construction contractors, who lived in the neighborhood, etc.
Who cares.
The present debate concerning it began long before his joke page.
Who cares.
The present debate concerning it began long before his joke page.
Most people, I would guess, are interested in what the key expert on abandoned stations has to say.
Joe Brennan is also one of the few people still doing original reseearch instead of looking up answers on the Internet or letting others do it for them.
Can anyone please supply the url to that April Fools Day page. I never saved it and have been trying to find it for a while!!!
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st.html
Thank You. When I first read it when it first came out, it did have me fooled. Now when I read it again and read how the Federal Gov't and agents with US Air Force ID got involved in a transit union labor dispute I cannot believe that I was fooled!!!
Besides, did you notice wat colors the "1948" R-10s were painted!
Yeah... RIGHT!
Elias
Well, I wasn't around in '48, I wasn't born till '53 so I really didn't know what the R-10's color's were then, but, I certainly didn't think that train was brand new as the caption stated!!
This is what the R-10 looked like when delivered in 1948:
Here is what they looked like in the 1970 after an attempt to make them look like the R36s:
The MTA scheme shown on Joe Brennan's page was adopted after the R40Ms and R42s arrived on the property.
Elias
Now then... What Happens if you compare this photo
with the one from 76th Street in 1948:
Now lets compare this image taken in 1974
with the 1948 image:
See how the 76th Street station is like the Bermuda Triangle? Notice how the guy looking out of the front of the railfan window must have been drawn through the vortex at 76th Street right after the entire station was drawn into the Atlantis Subway System around 1948 (possible right after the photo was taken.
Miraculously, the poor guy must have been drawn into 1974 and into that R10 at the 7th Avenue station. (Possibly it was the flash in the camera that triggered the vortex to spit him back out and into 7th Avenue Station in the exact position he was in when he was sucked up in 76th Street in 1948). Watch for a similar vortex at 7th Avenue.
Vortex? No vortex. That's just a diehard railfan -- he hasn't left the window for 26 years!
Nah, that's "Sparky the inflatable foamer" (otherwise known as "the motorman's friend") ... that was standard issue back in the 1970's. If you wanted to operate in peace and leave your cab door open for air, you'd pump up the plastic foamer and deposit them at the fan glass to discourage railfans from boarding your train. Worked well too, most of the serious foamers who made life a living hell in the cab would see the window occupied and wait for the NEXT train. Worked like a champ. :)
If you wanted to operate in peace and leave your cab door open for air, you'd pump up the plastic foamer and deposit them at the fan glass to discourage railfans from boarding your train.
Oh, is THAT what the inflatable foamer was used for? ;-)
Among other things. And if you hit a signal, you'd go hide in the #2 end and let the beakie write THEM up. :)
let the beakie write THEM up
Beakie ... that's a term I haven't heard in years.
Well, it's mentioned in the original Pelham 1-2-3.
Wow, 76 St ACTUALLY existed, so guys there you have it, the mystery has finally been solved.....
Do you think that R10 is still there? With that same guy at the front window?
This is creeping me out...
Yeah, it is creepy to see the SAME guy in the R10 railfan window for 26 years, yikes maybe he lives in the tunnels and exclusively rode R10's all that time I wonder if he lost le power from standing all those times :).
Do you think that R10 is still there? With that same guy at the front window?
This is creeping me out...
That same guy at the railfan window!!!!!! hahahahaha!!!!! Do you think he's still there!!!! hahahahahah!!!!!
You know. I really needed this laugh. I could not stop laughing for the last 5 minutes from these posts.
That "diehard railfan" is probably the ghost that is living in the 76th Street station, and he wants to continue living there, so that is why he has been keeping the station a major secret.
In seriousness, if in 1974 that guy only knew the hours of laughter he was going to cause people in the year 2002, I wonder if he would have stood there that day when he decided to look out the railfan window on the B that day.
A railfan window on the B? We haven't had any of those since the night of 7/21/01 (and I was at it and even ran into another SubTalker heading the same way).
Yeah, I miss the R40's on the B. For quite some time the B was synonymous with the slants. I still have that image of the B, even now.
I can still hear those slants rumbling along 4th Ave. as they ripped past those four local stops.
You can still hear those slants today, though they're labeled N, not B. (Occasionally they show up on the W, too, but usually on weekends, when the W runs local.)
I thought B's didn't have railfan windows since 1999 [maybe except for the occasional R40] when the B & Q made a fleet swap, Q's [the orange Q even though most or all R68's NEVER had the orange Q bullet] trading the R68/R68A for the R40 and a few R32's.
You're right, but once in a while, an R-40 set would creep onto the B on a weekend.
On July 21, 2001, the day before the bridge flip, someone posted here that one such set was running. That night, I was waiting at Columbus Circle for a B to take me to Stillwell for the ceremonial first ride on the yellow Q and, lo and behold, guess what pulled up!
The R40's suit the B better than the R68's, IMO. Did you get to the inaugural yellow Q in time b/c we all know how the B was [and still is] at times.
Sure did. See posts 241347 and 241427.
Looks like Keith (aka Far Rockaway ATrain) at the railfan window. Wow! He's older than I thought...:)
.....NOT!! Keep dreaming. But I have to say, that was a clever trick to throw people off. The only thing was that you could see the MTA stripe in the 2nd photo at "76 St", but he made that blue to further illusion people, that's a real historian who could even play tricks on you.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
You mean the running lights. The R-10s were delivered without headlights, so at least the fakery is accurate in the fake photo.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
Also notice how in his description, he was able to pass of the flourscent lighting with a plausibility... There was NO WAY he could have gotten away with the paint scheme, so he didn't mention it and got away with it.
GOOD WORK!
: ) Elias
Also notice how in his description, he was able to pass of the flourscent lighting with a plausibility... There was NO WAY he could have gotten away with the paint scheme, so he didn't mention it and got away with it.
I remember when the subject first came up on Harry Beck's board last April; everyone was trying to dispute the lighting in the station. Actually by drawing attention to the lights, he made everyone totally oblivious to the fact that the R10 had MTA colors. Everyone was focused on the station lighting. I myself, like most others, did not even think of the paint scheme on the train. And the fluorescent lighting was original in the stations east of Bway-ENY, so 76th would have it if the station existed. By drawing everyone to the lights, me made the eagle eyes less focused on disputing anything else in the photo. I am still amazed that none of the usually sharp eyed subfans did not even notice the MTA colors. Many here ram down people's throats for a lot less noticeable discrepancies that that! That's what made the joke even better, that it took so long for usually observant railfans to notice that blatant discrepancy!
If the truth be known, I noticed that R-10 paint scheme right away and thought, that doesn't jive with the original two-tone gray paint job those cars sported back then. Plus the graphics on the bulkhead signs didn't look right. Plus that photo looked strangely familiar. That's when I put two and two together, and it didn't equal four.
That was one of the best April Fool jokes I've ever encountered.
I think he went a little too far when he mentioned men with US Air Force ID getting involved in a NYC labor dispute. That was when I started getting suspicious. And of course the kids saying their toys were disappearing in the ground made it sound kind of science-fictionish.
I did notice the MTA stripe last night[although I had to look twice], I wanted to see how much subtalkers would be duped into believing that so I kept my mouth shut. Its the rush of believing the 76 St folly so that's what happens. The kicker was throwing in the blue shade to make it look like it was 1948, as SOON as you saw that, it should have came to mind that he was hiding something.
This is the first time I saw both pictures on the same page and noticed how clever Mr Brennan is. Notice the headlights in both pictures!
Yes indeed. I didn't even notice the headlights till you mentioned it. I did however notice the first time we compared photos that he left the period from after "7 AV." It is still there in the second photo with "76".
And Joe removed the headlights in the original and added the running lights (visible in the 1st photo) to "backdate" the shot, plus retouched the car so the grafitti was gone, since it didn't exist in 1948.
Absolutely the best April Fool trick ever pulled on the railfans.
What's even better is Joe's able to say nothing, even though it's been fooling lots of folks for almost 3 years. The man is a wizard. The 76th Street Station story has to be one the best jobs ever pulled.
What's even better is Joe's able to say nothing, even though it's been fooling lots of folks for almost 3 years. The man is a wizard. The 76th Street Station story has to be one the best jobs ever pulled.
In the proper spirit of April 1, he took it off the index page within a day or two after posting it.
But remember, the nature of a successful con is the gull's willingness to believe it.
Having said that, it had me going too when I first saw it--it was so well done and had a reputable researcher's stamp on it. Only after my eye wandered to "Page last updated 1 April 2002" did I begin to pick it apart.
One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST."
"One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST." "
Hate to disagree, but (as a lifelong IND rider) on the right was the letter and the "route" (A/8th Ave, F/6 Ave, GG/Crosstown) and on the left was the terminal (Wash Hts/207, 179 St/Jamaica, Queens/Forest Hls).
Oops got that backwards, letter on left and terminal on right. Sorry.
One thing I noticed was that the destination sign "76TH ST. OZONE PARK" would have been contrary to IND practice. It would have been "FULTON 76TH ST." "
Hate to disagree, but (as a lifelong IND rider) on the right was the letter and the "route" (A/8th Ave, F/6 Ave, GG/Crosstown) and on the left was the terminal (Wash Hts/207, 179 St/Jamaica, Queens/Forest Hls).
Hate to counter-disagree, but the destination (as opoosed to route)sign was constructive as LINE/STATION, not STATION/COMMUNITY so trains terminating at Euclid were signed FULTON EUCLID though the station is at Pitkin, and the D goes to CONCOURSE 205th ST though the station isn't on the Grand Concourse.
Not to try and argue with anyone...but it seems to be a 50/50 mix on those older iND signs.
While the "Fulton/Euclid", "Fulton/Lefferts", "Concourse/205th" and "Concourse/Bedford Pk" hold the LINE/street pattern to be true....there are the street/neighborhood signs such as "207th St. Wash. Hgts", "179th St. Jamaica", "168th St. Wash. Hgts.", and "71st Ave. Forest Hills" all on the same IND rollsigns!
And then there are the signs that designate neither the line's name nor the neighborhood..."Kings Highway", "Coney Island" for example.
Oh well, sure this 76th Street situation has brought up a LOT of discussion...but at least (so far) flame wars haven't erupted.
Happy holidays to everyone!
As annoying 76th Street can be, it's threads bring up everything possible about the subway to talk about from porcelain signs to paint schemes to headlights to column placement on local stations to flourescent lighting and then some. (plus every supernatural event know to man).
As annoying 76th Street can be, it's threads bring up everything possible about the subway to talk about from porcelain signs to paint schemes to headlights to column placement on local stations to flourescent lighting and then some. (plus every supernatural event know to man).
Outstanding point.
We get to discuss aspects of history, what constitutes proof, and all kinds of arcana.
All the fun of a flame war without the personal attacks! :)
....there are the street/neighborhood signs such as "207th St. Wash. Hgts", "179th St. Jamaica", "168th St. Wash. Hgts.", and "71st Ave. Forest Hills" all on the same IND rollsigns!
There are some exceptions, but in original IND practice the only valid exception of the ones you listed is possibly "179th St. Jamaica", which original read JAMAICA / 179th ST, if you accept that the line name is "QUEENS" not "JAMAICA".
But the other examples were originally WASH HGTS / 207th ST, WASH HGTS / 168TH (Washington Heights is the name of the line, whether or not those stations are in the community of Washington Heights). The other destination was QUEENS / FOREST HILLS.
And then there are the signs that designate neither the line's name nor the neighborhood..."Kings Highway", "Coney Island" for example.
Obviously, these are not original IND destinations.
Happy holidays to everyone!
Same to you, and everyone! :)
The R-1/9s followed the line-station pattern on their destination curtains. The R-27/30s flip-flopped the order, and the R-32s and R-38s followed suit.
However, you could roll an R-1/9 bulkhead curtain to show certain combinations flip-flopped. For example, you could get "168th St. Wash. Hts" or "Bedford Pk. Concourse". Assuming that "Queens-Forest Hills" followed "Jamaica-179th St", you could also show "179th St. Queens".
Ah....as I wasn't thee when those cars were new, just going by pictures which obviously showed newer signage.
As for the Washington Heights LINE....versus it being on the signs as the neighborhood name, I see your point! Never gave it a thought as the "line name", but, 'tis true!
Kings Highway & Coney Island...yeah, that went right over my head that those weren't original IND destinations. :-)
It makes me wonder if his other locations are on the level.
It makes me wonder if his other locations are on the level.
Fool me once. Fool me again?
I trust Brennan on his reputation and thoroughness. I've corresponded with him on differences of opinion, and just that's just what they are--differences of opinion or one or the other of us had more complete information on any given issue.
If it were put up straight in September and left up, you might consider it a "hoax." On April 1 and with some broad hints, it's a "joke."
When I first saw it I thought it might be real because of the pix and his reputation. But after I read the text...
"A followup story in the News Queens edition on 2 December told the story of an area man who walked through the intersection each day to reach the Fulton St El station at City Line, a few blocks to the northwest: 'I was walking home one day and noticed the new subway entrance. I was amazed because there was nothing there that morning. I don't know how human beings could work so fast.'
[ ... ]
"A neighborhood kid told me not to go in there, because it wasn't safe to stand on. He said he bounced a ball in there once and it disappeared right into the ground. A man inside the house came to the door and explained, "Hey you, get out of here. What are you taking pictures?' "
Do we need more hints?
Maybe it's 7th Ave that doesn't exist!
The R-10s were all half-and-half teal and white by 1970. The racing stripe scheme prevailed from 1966 to 1068.
The R-10s were all half-and-half teal and white by 1970. The racing stripe scheme prevailed from 1966 to 1968.
Sorry for the typo.
Don't feel bad. A lot of us fell for it, hook, line and sinker.
"A lot of us fell for it, hook, line and sinker."
I have to admit I'm beginning to believe I've been wrong.
There was a website I read where the IND Second System plan was to have split up after Euclid Ave. I think it is listed somewhere else in nycsubway.com. One branch was to have connected to the BMT Fulton El at City Line. The other was to have continued underground to S/E Queens.
If someone was to look at the 1939 BOT proposed subway routes map they would have noticed the route continues along Pitkin and makes a curve around where the 3 cemeteries are between 80 and 84 Streets. But I will admit her and now that of the proposed IND second system route the only section that was actually built was the section past Euclid Ave. After Euclid, 2 tracks go to Pitkin Yard. 2 tracks go to Grant Ave. 4 tracks continue along. The route goes on until it reaches the bumper blocks and it ends there. Why does the control board in Euclid Ave tower has 76 St listed as a station? I don't know. Are there any other towers in the system where the control board has stations that are not there?
the link is nwo broken. (the page does not exist)
No, it still works.
the link is now broken. (the page does not exist)
Thanks for posting the link. It worked for me.
Has anyone noticed that Joe's track map doesn't correspond to what's on the board, and also doesn't allow trains to reverse direction properly at 76th? There is no way to get from the eastbound local track to the westbound. A train would have to wrong rail all the way back to Euclid.
Notice also that 76th is shown as a local station, which may have been the intent. Whatever plans there were for 76th, it wasn't supposed to be the last stop. Ss this map may be accurate as far as its shown--that is, in terms of the inability to use it as a terminal.
I would have thought that 76 St was just the first station after Euclid Ave. The route would go further and more stations would follow.
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place.
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place
How would that prove it? Do you intend to drill a core sample in the street and see if you come up with a core sample of a moldy R10? Or dig in someone's backyard?
The most certain way, if you don't trust the TA, is to go to the Department of Streets and ask to see an underground utilities map for the location. Period.
>>How would that prove it?<<
Im not proving anything. Im putting a long argument to rest.
Im not proving anything. Im putting a long argument to rest.
But then we'll have to move on to an endless thread about the PCC trolley buried under Ocean Parkway and Church Avenue.
I can stand the 76 street stuff, but good lord please no.
or the "unnamed gov't spy agency" using the other half of the long lost Atlantic Ave. LIRR tunnel as their western hemisphere remote viewing headquarters.
shhh!
I have personally heard from informed sources thrice removed who are no longer with us that PCC 1002 is buried in the tunnel at Ocean Pkwy and Church Avenue on the eastbound track. In addition, there is another PCC in SEPTA colors in Brooklyn (others have seen it) which is supposed to go into service at this location once the tunnel is restored to service as part of the Kensington Access Project. Some study has been done on the effect the tunnel would have at that intersection if it were reopened.
--Mark
Interesting! That BQT PCC sounds like wishful thinking (it wouldn't be the first tall tale I've heard about cars surviving in barns/tunnels), but I would love to be surprised. The SEPTA PCC is #2739, owned by the Brooklyn Lyceum club but apparently not used for anything. I don't think that there are any plans for this car to operate, but then again the club could have sold it off.
http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-query.pl?sel_curown=Brooklyn+Lyceum&match_target=&Tech=Yes&pagelen=200
Frank Hicks
ROFLOL
:-) Sparky
You could have waited until April 1 to post that.:)
Not that it would top that 76th St. joke. (No - please don't start that again!)
Or you can just go out to western Pennsylvania and borrow one of the seismograph trucks from one of the oil exploration companies (hey, Halliburton could use the extra cash right now), park it at 76th and Pitkin and just let it pound down on the street a few times and the read the returning sound waves. That would give you a good map of what's below, and as an added bonus, if the city hasn't taken care of the supports the way they should of, you might actually see the truck pay a visit to the station...
Wow! That's a great idea! You get the truck and I'll meet you in Queens!
--Brian
There is really only one way too find out if 76 street is real or not.
By a old fasion subtalk feild trip. I say we all find out if 76 Street is real or not(In the summer though, I hate the cold). If anyone is willing to participate then I suggest we pick a date and a meeting place.
I'll go if there is a trip.
We already do. Like the Roswell incident and the Philadelpia experiment, this controversy has taken on a life of it's own, despite the incredible lack of any evidence to support it and a wealth of evidence to refute it.
Fact is that people are really HOPING it exists. The unknown is always 'exciting.'
Yes it is "exciting" but at the same time some postere are taking it WAY too seriously. I say it does not exist [if it does I'll feel stupid.....NOT!], it's just a myth to make it more interesting than it actually is.
This is today's lead article in the Staten Island Advance - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/103884039718220.xml
A related article concerning the traction gel used by SIRT (and presumably by NYCT) - http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/103884039518220.xml
And, a thread from their Transit Forum on this subject from last week - http://www.silive.com/forums/transit/index.ssf?artid=4462
North Shore Railroad Right-of-Way Feasibility Study
Staten Island Borough President James P. Molinaro invites you to learn more about the study at a Public Meeting on
Tuesday, December 10, 2002
The Jury Room
Staten Island Court House
126 Stuyvesant Place
Staten Island NY 10301
(Across from Staten Island Borough Hall)
5 PM - 8 PM
Funded by The Port Authority of NY & NJ
Prime Consultant - URS Corporation
What's the plan, does it include the HBLRT over the Bayonne?
Today i was on Myrtle Ave in Ridgwood Queens waiting for the SLOW bus and i noticed a rare site on the freight over pass thats on the intersection of fresh pond rd and myrtle, An R142 on a flatbed!!!!!
What was it doing there??????? and if it was there would the delivery have to pass by my house in bushwick where i have a view of the same freight line when it passes next to the L train on the embankment aproach to the Wilson Ave Station???????
Actually it happens quite often. The R142 cars are delivered via CP rail from Plattsburg NY to Oak Point in the Bronx, and from there across the Hell Gate Bridge to the Fresh Pond Yard just north of Myrtle Ave. In that yard the cars are run off the flat cars to the rails using a ramp. The cars are then hauled along the NY & Atlantic south to the Linden Shop of NYC Transit at Linden Blvd. They are then hauled north up a special track alongside the NY&A which connects with the Livonia Ave el. That's how they get on to NYCTA property. You should be able to see them at Wilson Ave, but the moves may occur only in the middle of the night.
142 or 143??
-Don't the 142s come from the Yonkers Plant via flatbed down Broadway?
it was an r142, i made sure of that lol, and of course now that u tell me they do the runs at nite im gonna have to look out the window. i hear alot of freight action at nite lately but i didnt know it was subway cars being hauled!!!!!!!!
NO, they are definitely R142's, I've seen them myself there and at LIRR (NYA) Fresh Pond Yard.
The Kawasaki R142's are delivered from Yonkers. The Bombardier R142's are delivered via Fresh Pond.
R142A's and R143's are delivered by flatbet down Broadway (on truck). R142's and the LIRR M7's are delivered by freight to FP yard by what was posted above.
I think Victor kind of covered it. But if you'd like to see some more of them on that line, head over to Glendale to the yard on Otto Road. I saw a few of them on flatcars in the freight yard there. It's hit or miss, but I have seen the R142's there at various times of the day in the yard (unfortunately, without my camera). I also saw them moving over the Myrtle Ave Bridge (at Fresh Pond Road) this past summer.
Hey GP38 Chris, I remember seeing some R14's in that yard too! Its located along Otto Rd. I believe the LIRR runs through there as well.
Its located along Otto Rd. I believe the LIRR runs through there as well.
It is a LIRR yard, or now actually New York and Atlantic, which took over the LIRR Freight. The R142's are there quite often, you just have to hit it right. Actually, the LIRR uses those tracks quite often for a few revenue runs between Long Island City and Jamaica, but more often also for deadhead moves.
Waiting for a SLOW bus, I bet its the crappy ass Q55. You're not alone, I feel your pain.
no it was the even slower B20. lol
I went to the Wheatsheaf Lane foot bridge, just east of Frankford Junction in Philly, to catch some of Amtrak's Sunday-after-Thanksgiving holiday extras, arriving around 10 AM. I wasn't adequately prepared for the blustery wind, and my fingers got so cold that I sometimes snapped the shutter early or late, so I left at 1 PM. It was rewarding, however, as Amtrak trains 3043 and 3095 were Jersey Arrows and train 3074 was a MARC trainset. I was also pleased to see an HHP-8 and an E60 (#600), as well as all the expected AEM7's and Acela Expresses, perhaps including the one that WMATAGMOAGH was on.
Including SEPTA R7's and NJT Atlantic City trains, as well as Conrail activity, I managed to photograph 26 trains in the three hours.
The photos are uploaded onto a Webshots page.
Why did they use ARROW III's and not something nicer like Comet V or Comet IV trainsets?
When Amtrak borrows MU's from NJTransit, Septa and MARC, do they run the cars at the regular Amtrak speeds (110 - 115 mph) or are they regulated to the normal speeds these cars usually travel?
NJT Arrow III's have a top speed of 100 mph. MARC ALP-44's can go 125 and the cars probably the same. NJT ALP's can only go 100 as NJT's rolling stock is limited to 100.
MARC ALP-44's can go 125
MARC has AEM7's.
Same differance.
Same difference???!!!
SEPTA ALP-44
SEPTA AEM-7
Equipment is restricted to the speeds in the Amtrak employee timetable, regardless if the equipment is being used by SEPTA, MARC, or Amtrak.
Amtrak speeds are up to 130 mph for the Acela Express and Amfleet between NYP and WAS.
My viewing point was the Bowie Railroad Museum in the former Bowie Tower, located next to the WAS-NYP main line.
Michael
Washington, DC
Click here for the online version. A must for old timers who rode the el back in the 30's, 40's & 50's.
Plus it tells a lot of the story of when the part from Wyckoff to Metropolitan was known as the Lutheran Cemetery line.
Since I grew up in Ridgewood, if I had a time machine, the one thing I would like to do is to go back to 1906-1916 when the Wyckoff end of the Mrytle Ave El was connnected by an embankment to the Lutheran line which was then at grade with stations at Covert (Seneca) Ave., Forest Ave. Fresh Pond Rd. and Metropolitan Ave.
And by the way Chris, I took the Q-cars and Standards on the Myrtle Ave. El in the early 60's and I don't consider myself an old timer (yet :-) - give me a year or two! I just barely remember the Gate cars, but I didn't ride the El that often early on and I was 9 years old when they were replaced by the Q's. My older (by 5 years) cousin, on the other hand, only remembers the gate cars since he didn't use the El much after 1958.
Thanks for posting that. I try to read the "Our neighborhood the way it was" link from the Ridgewood Times because it used to be my neighborhood, and am still very interested in it's history. But many times I forget to check (like this week), so thanks for reminding me. Many times the "neighborhood" article does include info on the M line route, or the LIRR, etc through the area.
The link changes weekly, so get your clicks now, next week it will be something else.
If she remembers closing windows on gate cars, she must be remembering before 1950. That was when the 600, 900 & 1200 series cars were replaced on the Myrtle Ave line by the 1300 series.
I would have posted this earlier, but I couldn't FTP to upload the appropriate map.
Since 76th Street is speculative, I feel it is up to the people who say it does exist to prove, rather than for the people who don't think it exists to definitively prove that. This is because it is hard to prove a negative.
The positives are speculation. The only piece of somewhat hard definitive evidence that 76th Street does exist is the Euclid model board, but this is flawed because the model board could have been created in anticipation of a station that was never built--sort of like pockets for lines that were never built.
The second piece which should mean something is eyewitness ID. We don't have that. The people who claim to have seen the station are unavailable. I've had trainmen pull my leg on things which common sense says are false--people do this all the time.
So we are left with drawings and maps. These also are non-definitive. I have detailed engineering drawings of the 42nd Street Conveyor Belt. The what? See what I mean.
And I have this map of the loop connection from the Brooklyn Bridge - Chambers Street connection. This is a BRT engineering drawing.
Interesting. Trains from the Williamsburgh bridge would continue south of Chambers back into Brooklyn via the Brooklyn bridge and then via the els that served it (Fulton, Myrtle, Lexington, 5th Ave), while trains from the Manhattan bridge would have continued south via Nassau to the Montague St. tube and back to Brooklyn.
It's as if Chambers St. was the convergence of 2 loops, one eastern division and one southern division, forming a figure 8. This drawing certainly makes the configuration of Chambers St. today a lot more understandable. It also implies that all the elevateds serving the Brooklyn Bridge were going to have to be rebuilt to heavy subway standards, as Fulton St. was from Franklin to Atlantic.
And a third loop was Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan Bridge, via the crossovers. This could have enabled Fulton L Trains to loop, returning via the Ashland Place connection.
Thanks for posting that. It is one of the most easy to understand maps I have seen of the Nassau Line. I think the Nassau Line is fascinating - probably one of the most interesting lines in the system, even if much of it is in shambles....well they are working on that. Maybe part of the intrigue is that it is in such a state of decay. Hey, I must be sick, Chambers Street is one of my favorite stations.
Notice the three track Broad St. station (like Whitehall) and the simple Fulton St.
I take it that is on Williams St. and not Nassau St.
Good observation, I didn't even notice that the first time about Broad Street. It seems it would have made more sense to build Broad like that, instead of as a two track, wall platform station. I wonder why they changed that design. I assume it would have been much easier to use Broad as a terminal if it were like Whitehall. The M's could have used the outer tracks, and the J could have terminated on the middle track.
For those of you who aren't aware of the 42nd St conveyor ...
In 1954, Sidney H. Bingham, then chairman of the Board of Transportation, proposed a conveyor belt system to transport a dozen people at a time in small cars continuously moving between Times Square and Grand Central, following the route of today's shuttle. A contract of $3.8 million was awarded in November of that same year, but was cancelled less than a year later because it was believed to be too expensive.
This technology was revisited as a circulator for the 48th St / 3rd Ave Metropolitan Transportation Center that was part of the 1968 "Program for Action". The MTC was never built.
--Mark
Slight correction -- Bingham was Chairman of the original New York City Transit Authority, which took over operation of the subway in 1953 from the Board of Transportation.
David
Thank you for the correction.
--Mark
Your server is slow. It's taking forever to load that map.
Your server is slow. It's taking forever to load that map.
Dang! It sure is. I wonder if that's temporary--anywaythat server is going to be history in a few months anyway--maybe sooner.
Try this link.
Just after the election, the "Planning Studies" section of the Official MTA Website disappeared.
Is the link gone or has the entire section been removed from the web server?
Just after the election, the "Planning Studies" section of the Official MTA Website disappeared.
I can't say that's too ominous ... merely hearing the word "Study(ies)" creates a bad taste in my mouth.
I still see it there ... hover over or click on "Inside the MTA".
Here it is, safe and sound!
:-) Andrew
Why I believe the R-42 was controversial is that why the TA
would spend so much money to create a entirely new car which was
not so different from the old one (R-40).
What was the controversy?
David
Are you getting the R42 mixed up with the R44?
Aren't you a bit late? How many of the people who were resposible for this decision are now dead? Nothing like dragging a corpse out of the closet.
And besides, which came first, the R40M or the R42? Could the MTA have saved money by using the R42 nose on the R40M (or the R40M nose on the R42) after the minor failure of the R40 slant? I would count passengers falling and being sliced to pieces by the wheels a failure of design, especially on a passenger railcar where passengers are supposed to be able to walk between cars.
To bring this up to today, why are we paying to have a whole new R160 fleet, with all the contract talks and lawyers fees that that brings when we have the R143 fleet? To me, all the artist renderings look virually identical, why didn't the MTA just order the R160s under a massive option for R143s?
It sounds like the R143-R160's are going to be like the R27-30's. I still can't tell them apart in photos - I certainly didn't know there where different. Same with the R44-R46's. They are different, but they are more alike than the R40M-R42's, I believe. WHen the R40 slants were found to be a deign nightmare, the R42's must have been on the drawing board already. The fronts are almost identical. The sides however are distinctively different.
I just don't know why when they built the R40M's, they put the R42 end on one end, and kept the R40 end (although not a problem like the slant end) on the other end.
They had 300 cars of the 400 built and they were already having trouble with the Slants - i.e. big gaps, locked "A" end doors, etc. so they needed a quick fix. The Sundberg-Farrar design was already on the drawing board (R42) so they grafted the nose onto the already-engineered R40 body and voila! R40M. The first ones in were the 4200s followed by the Brake Test cars. By the time the last of them arrived, they went straight to their current numbers.
wayne
2 or 3 years ago, some kid fell between the unlocked doors
of an Slant.
Was on the car when it happened. The child was standing infront of the door with his mother sitting down. Someone had just changed cars and the door did not lock tight. The door opened when the train went over a track switch betweeen dekalb and the manny-b.
I believe it was at the non slant end of the car
Yes, it was the blind end of the car. If, as you state, you were on it you should know that.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "B" ends of Slant R40 and R40M are treacherous as the carbodies have rounded corners and there are no handholds between the cars as there are on, say, the R32, R38 and R42.
wayne
What about "blind" ends of Redbirds?
They have handholds.
There is a difference between the R-143 and the 160, but it is not cosmetic. It's an operational difference. The R-160 fleet will NOT carry CBTC systems. However, the contract stipulates that CBTC features can be added on as an option at a later date.
It could be one of two possible things, in my eye:
1. The original call for the R160 contract was for 5 car units. The 4 car unit part of the contract probably came around because someone realized the current 143 contract & options didn't fulfill all their needs.
2. Possibily the (proposed) manufacture date of the cars. Maybe the MTA has a time frame in which a contract must be fulfilled.
Just my $0.02.
D'oh... stupid Mozilla and I turned off the Save Forms too.
And how did you get to that conclusion? So what if the R42's resemble R40M's, they move passengers & that's it, to me this topic is controversial :).
I don't know what you're talking about, but just because a car looks like an older model doesn't mean the mechianics are the same. Do you think that the 25 year old WMATA 1000s are mechainically similiar to the brand new 5000s, since the outsides are pretty much the same? Not a chance. Car bodies are a dime a dozen, you can make it look like anything you want. Most money goes into the guts of a car.
The R-40/42's were (and are) the TA's Edsel, having spent
millions to develop a new and stylish car, only to have it
look ugly, boxy, and unsafe.
More was spent to retrofit pantograph gates, door guards, and
not to mention the worst MDBF in the fleet.
How does the R-42 look unsafe? It looks quite safe to me. Handsome, too.
The R-40 is a different story.
How does the R-42 look unsafe? It looks quite safe to me. Handsome, too.
Once upon a time it had not pantographs on it. It had those spring things at the "B" end, but IIRC there was no protection for two "A" ends coupled together.
So, people from the platform could fall in. Or worse. try to jump on, and only then find out that it had no handgrips where they expected them to be.
Elias
See, here is a picture of it (Handsome train too!)
The hand grips are inside the door opening rather than on the face of the car.
: ) Elias
At least the odd looking black trim has been painted over. Well, the pantographs were for the passengers own good, well to the topic starter, if the topic had started with the R40, then you may have more responses and THAT car was real controversial & that was 30+ years ago so we gladly accepted them after the pantographs and bars were added.
At least the odd looking black trim has been painted over.
Black Trim???
Yeah, when they first came, like the future R44 and R46 orders, it had some black trim in the front of the car [hideous!].
Amazingly, as delivered, the front of the R42's look very similar to the LIRR M1's.
It was all part of the MTA "family look" or "corporate look". That was the genesis for the silver-and-blue paint scheme.
Family look?! :-\ You wish, and with graffiti & breakdowns just a few years later, the family look was way gone thats for sure. Looked very good with the blue stripe.
The R-40/42's were (and are) the TA's Edsel, having spent
millions to develop a new and stylish car, only to have it
look ugly, boxy, and unsafe.
????? I think you mean the R40's, the slants. Your comments to match them, but them only.
There is nothing unsafe about the R40M's or the R42's.
There is certainly nothing that makes the R42's look ugly or boxy. In fact, they are among the most attractive cars in the system.
Exactly but w/o all the rust, they would look real good, I wish the blue stripe could return on the sides.
The BRT/LIRR Chestnut St. connection was in use from approximately 1896-1916. I have heard that it was completely torn down sometime in the early 1940's since the steel was needed for the War effort.
However, it may have actually been partially torn down much earlier - 1926 - if this track map from the Bob Emery collection is to be believed. The Map, which dates from about 1960, says that some of the girders (it doesn't specify steel or wood) were used to upgrade the overpass of the Port Jefferson line over what then was Bydenburgh Rd.
Here's the map:
That's really interesting. I love triva like that.
Bob, I believe that the actual ramps on Atlantic Ave were removed before WWII. I grew up in the area in the 1940's, and my earliest memories were that the rest of the steel work was still in place in the empty square block bordered by Fulton, Chestnut, Euclid and Atlantic. The LIRR was converted to subway on Atlantic around the same time that the last of the steelwork was taken down. I was so young at the time that I can't remember which happened first.
My guess is that the LIRR tore down the portion of the structure under their control. The BRT was facing for keeping infrastructure just to have it.
On the BMT J line just before Cresent St you can see the girders pointing south from Fulton St toward Atlantic Ave.
Once upon a time, there was another BRT/LIRR connection. That was on Flatbush Ave south of the LIRR terminal. The connection lasted until 1917. The rusty remains of it lasted until the mid-late 1970's. Until I found out about the BRT 5th Ave El, I couldn't figure out what was the purpose of it.
Do you mean the connection that supposedly carried August Belmont's Mineola at Flatbush/Atlantic to the LIRR so he can ride to Belmont Raceway? Or is this another one?
No, he means the connection from the 5th Avenue El (Brooklyn) to the LIRR just past the site of the Atlantic Avenue terminal.
No, Belmont's connection was on the subway level. It hasn't been used in a long time. August Belmont died in 1924. There was a curve in the wall alongside the N/B IRT route north of Atlantic Ave where the connection was and it heads for the LIRR route. With the reconstruction going on at Atlantic Ave Complex lately, the site probably has been covered over by now.
The connection I was talking about was upstairs in the street. A train would go southbound or outbound out of Sands or Park Row. After it passed the LIRR terminal on Flatbush it would make a left hand turn, Go down the ramp to the LIRR yard and go out along Atlantic Ave to the Rockaway Park line at 99-100 Street, make a right and go out to the Rockaways. That connection was severed about 1918. IIRC it was something to do with a directive from the War Department. Someone else can answer that better than me.
IIRC the LIRR connection was just before that series of switches that allows a s/b local to cross all the way over to the n/b local track. There'a a new cinder block wall where the curve used to be.
I would think it was a elevated grade crossing from a s/b local to the LIRR ramp. IIRC there was a building blocking the route of the old ramp when I first saw it in the late 1970's.
There is still a remnant of that connection. In the LIRR tunnel between Nostrand Avenue and Flatbush Avenue terminal there are two trackways leading to open portals. One of the portals has track and leads to a yard. The other does not have any track but does have niches in the walls for trackworkers. Joe Brennan told me that this portal was used for the LIRR/5th Avenue El connection.
If I recall correctly, the original connection when the LIRR was still at grade, was used from about 1899 to 1903. Here's a picture (the one car train is on the connection, the tower is on the 5th Ave. El)
When the new undergound Flatbush Ave. terminal was built, a new connection was made (the one you describe above) but never actually used for revenue service.
By the way, when they were building the new Flatbush Ave. terminal, the old connection served as a temporary terminal by building wooden platforms around it.
By the way, at that point in the picture, the 5th Ave. El is running over Flatbush Ave.
Great Photo.
A number of prints exist of that photo. I have one. It also appeared in Seyfried, where he alleges it to be the only picture of that connection with a train on it.
I've seen other pictures of that connection, and so far Seyfried hasn't been disproven.
So, what route did LIRR trains take on the 5th Ave El? I never heard of this connection before.
Until about 1980, a 'divorced' section of el ran along Atlantic Avenue, crossing 6th Ave, and descended into the cut.
Was that the old LIRR/5th Ave El connection?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It lasted even more recently than that - hunks were taken out over the concrete street bridges crossing the yard when they were rebuilt in the early 80's. The rest of the old 5th ave connection el came down in the early 90's (was living down near that nabe for a time, but moved before it finally came down).
Interesting how the el structure in downtown Brooklyn that saw the shortest, and infrequent actual use ended up being the last one up.
So, what route did LIRR trains take on the 5th Ave El?
I think they only went as far as Sands St. I'm not sure if LIRR trains went over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row.
The BRT used the connection to send some of its 5th Ave. El trains to Manhattan Beach
OK Bob, now I'm getting confused. If my memory is correct, the structure that was taken down in the 70's or 80's (which I remember) was s/o the Atlantic Av roadway over the trainyard yet in the picture it is n/o the roadway. (I'm assuming the photo is facing West) Either they moved the Atlantic Av roadway which is improbable, or my memory of the location is wrong.
Anyone have the answer?
As I mentioned earlier, the connection you remember was the second one built after the LIRR FLatbush Ave. terminal was made underground. The first one, shown in the picture was torn down around 1905.
Thanks Bob, I thought I was having one of Fred's Senior moments!!!
IIRC the LIRR was running service out of Flatbush Terminal on the surface. I know the location that you're talking about. I think in the last few years, the LIRR yard (Carlton?) has been shrinking and the leads were removed.
My old stomping grounds! I grew up about 1 mile from the lumber yard. Played many a game of Ring-O-Levio in the yard on Sundays with my buddies before one day getting chased off by the railroad bulls!
Here at work, (many of us NE Corridor Commuters) are here pondering....What would happen if the Penn Station Tunnels, or even worse the NE Corridor had to be shut down for an extended period of time?
2 questions...
1) What would the contingency plan be? How would people get in and out
2) Has this ever happened before?
My idea would be to operate bus shuttles from Trenton, and only allow bus and commercial traffic to use the lincoln tunnel. also i would restrict the nj turnpike to bus & commercial traffic north of exit 10....forcing other users to the other tunnels
I think they should do that now. Especially at night. It really shouldn't take 45 min to drive from one end of the tunnel to the turnpike. The PA should take a stand and say people need to start taking mass transit to the city.
On the LIRR side of the river, the contingency is to dump people at Woodside, Hunterspoint and Flatbush Avenue.
What about Long Island City? I'll bet we'd see the return of the LIC ferry big time.
Problem with the LIC ferry is the train no longer goes to the shore. You have a bus ride of several blocks. But, if Penn were COMPLETELY unavailable for an extended period, ferries might be viable.
>>Here at work, (many of us NE Corridor Commuters) are here pondering....What would happen if the Penn Station Tunnels, or even worse the NE Corridor had to be shut down for an extended period of time?
2 questions...
1) What would the contingency plan be? How would people get in and out
2) Has this ever happened before?
My idea would be to operate bus shuttles from Trenton, and only allow bus and commercial traffic to use the lincoln tunnel. also i would restrict the nj turnpike to bus & commercial traffic north of exit 10....forcing other users to the other tunnels<<
This was actually going to happen a few months ago when Amtrak was about to declare bankruptcy. They got their bailout package by wimping out the rail community with threats of closing all Amtrak owned facilities which included Penn Station.
If this was to happen today then New Jersey Transit would of ended trains at Pen Station in Newark. LIRR would of ended their trains at Long Island City, Flatbush Avenue and Jamaica. I would say it isnt pheasable to end trains at Flatbush grnated the limited amount of space at the station. But our fellow subtalkers have more knowledge when it comes to the LIRR
Amtrak would probably route corridor trains into Hoboken Terminal or connect with shuttle buses at the new Secaucas connection. NJT would probably terminate their corridor trains at Newark for the PATH connection. Look for expanded ferry service. If the North River tunnels were shut down for several years one option in addition to Hoboken would be for train service accross the Arthur Kill into St. George.
I thought the North shore railway on SI was partially dismantled?
And facing the loss of all through rail access to Manhattan I am sure that it would be remantled.
I posed this very same question, albeit from a more NJT commuter POV, on the Railroad.net NJT forum a few weeks ago, under the topic Penn Tunnel Construction Question. the basic answer I got was, "They don't know."
From the NJT side of things, it doesn't seem too overly complicated. I assumed that one tunnel would be made unusable due to maintenance ro restoration work and/or a terrorist act, hopefully leaving the other tunnel untouched, for Amtrak and limited NJT service. If I were running it, I'd:
<1> Drop all plans for Secaucus Transfer to ever be anything more than a nice, above-ground artificial tunnel, at least for the immediate future.
<2> Cancel all Mid-Town Direct service, pull all ALP engines from the Hoboken division and give them most of the Arrow IIIs off the NEC and NJCL. (I know there'd be a disparity there, I'd take more seats from the NEC and NJCL than I'd replace with the Arrow-ALP swap)
<3> String catenary over the Waterfront connection before the day was out. Heres where the ALPs come in, Arrows cannot make the change there to go from the 11kv NEC to the 25kv Hoboken division on the fly (I think Hoboken's 25Kv, somebody correct me if not). However, the Arrows can be reconfigured in the MMC (or somewhere) for 25kv. So now most passengers on NJT are being funneled into Hoboken.
<4> In addition to the ALP-Arrow swap, there would be lot more Diesel expresses, especially on the NJCL, which is diesel all down from Long Branch. Diesels may have sucky acceleration, but they should be able to hold their speed okay, so if they run express while the arrows and alps pick up the locals and semi-expresses, schedules should not falter too much. A few arrows would remain on the NEC, and most would provide the super-local (like stopping at North Elizablth), in addition to a rare one seat ride.
<5> You may have already gotten this from 3, but all ALP and Diesel pulled NEC and NJCL trains would be routed into Hoboken. Riders from places like Trenton, Princeton Junction, or Long Branch would have a choice between two routes. One, to get off at Newark Penn, and either grab a PATH to 33rd (I'm assuming that the WTC isn't ready yet), or a one of the already packed super-locals running Arrows into NYP on the remaining tunnel. Or, number two, which would be to stay on the train, ride it to Hoboken, where they could choose from PATH, a multitude of ferries, and possibly one or more temporary fixes to help get people over or under the Hudson, perhaps a Roosevelt Island style tramway, perhaps a quick-fix Cable-Stayed LRT-only bridge (done in 6 months? ala the 1/9 fix up after 9/11) at around 34th carrying the HBLRT into NY, this might require moving the hoboken terminal of the HBLRT closer to the NJT tracks.
The ride to hoboken would clearly be the one favored by the NJT officials, they don't want completely SRO Arrows in one of the tunnels should something else untoward happen.
<6> Beef up all ferry and fast ferry service into New York's Pier 11, or the one by the World Financial Center, and make the service much more accessable from the GSP or NJTP (ever try to find the Atlantic Highlands ferry docks, they're practically hidden!). Perhaps a permanent ferry terminal somewhere along the NJ shoreline west of Sandy Hook, ala Seattle's Coleman Docks. For those who don't mind a wait, maybe some slower, but vastly larger boats are on order, SI Ferrys is getting some new boats, perhaps 2 boats could be tagged onto that order. Then again, maybe it would be wise to contract with Todd Shipyards in Seattle, and get 1 or 2 of WSF's Jumbo MKII ferries, with the upper and side car decks removed, they should be able to carry in excess of 5000 people, possibly more than the SI Ferry Barbieri class. The trip might take less than and hour, possibly more than an hour 45 min, I'm not sure.
All those passengers gotta get moved, so maybe a specialized NJT bus line, or lines, to handle the passengers possibly to and from the NJCL. And a large parking garage for all the drive-ups would be a necesity, but that would require being placed close to an off shoot of the GSP or something, and that screams "git me" to the nimbys along the way.
<7> Finally, start calling around for the best deals on Sand Hogs and TBMs to start drilling a Lower Manhatten TC!
Well, that's my plan to get NEC and NJCL customers out of the Penn Tunnels, sorry for getting caught up in the ferry details, and hope it made some sense!
If you remember the fire at Penn Station back in late 1999, Amtrak trains ended at Newark and you were bussed from there, although PATH was certainly an option. Long term, I don't know.
My plan may have some nice spices to it. New Jersey Transit and the MTA can purchase Penn Station should Amtrak go belly-up. If rehab is necessary or in case of an attack, I would start building 2 new tubes to avoid any catastrophe. You just can't stop rail service into NYC. With 2 new tunnels, you would be ahead of the game.
NJ Senator Corzine ,NJT and the PANY-NJ and NY senator Clinton and Schumer all support building a new two tube tunnel. On weekends, they are running single track between the two penns due to tunnel rehab work.
As far as ending all trains at Newark Penn, I dont think PATH can handle all the traffic. Rememebr- they lost WTC so they can only run 7 cars due top platform lengths ont he 33rd St Line. Split servcie between PATH and Hoboken could work--perhaps send one branch NECL or NJCl to Hoboken and the other ends at Newark.
Either way look for massive gridlock on rail, bus, ferry.
So I guess the consensus is that there is no official contingency plan if the tunnels were to go out of service. I say big shame on our elected officials from NY, NJ, and PA, and AMTRAK, NJT, PATH and the Ferries.
There are only two tunnels into Penn Station....If I were in charge, I'd be more worried about a contingency plan, and much less about expanding service (e.g. secaucus transfer)
believe ir or not there is progress to a new tunnel! NJT, PANY-NK and the politicians have agreed it is needed and a study is planned. Goign a step further- the whoel NEC from Newark to NY needs four tracking. But- what can be done with Dock Bridge twin it?
Did anyone else see the picture on pg. 51 in the Metro edition of the NY News yesterday?
It shows two German made subway cars being unloaded out of the rear of a giant cargo jet at the Balyuan International Airport in China. The subway cars will run on the NO. 2 line in Guangzhou, Guangdong province.
The German built first diesel light rail car to be delivered to the Camden-Trenton light rail line (SNJLRTS) in Camden was flown from Berlin to Atlantic City last August. The three-section car was flown intact, but was disassembled and trucked from Atlantic City to Camden on three trailers and reassembled.
cool
Why the hell would they fly it? Wouldn't shipping it be a lot cheaper? It's not like they'll spoil in a week.
Bombardier is late for building them, and Guangzhou Metro was in such a hurry to open the line on time that Bombardier has to pay the cost to FLY them (2 sets of trains, 6 cars in each set) 6 TIMES.
See this for more details.
I meant the SNJLRT.
Actually, I think those might be Transrapid Maglev Cars. China has volunteered to be the guinea pig for that style maglev. Although I'd bet any amount of money that as soon as the Transrapid technicians are gone, they reverse engineer it, and produce their own 'indigenous' maglev that bears a striking resemblance to the transrapid system, and suddenly transrapid goes the way of the Alweg Monorail Company (who got screwwed by Japan in the 1960s, the Japanese basically stole the design from the German Alweg company, which had previously produced the Seattle world's fair monorail).
Either that, or something small will get screwwed up, since the system relies upon a computer to take data from a feedback circuit and adjust the height of the maglev accordingly. All of this while traveling 350+km/h just a few centimeters off the guideway. I can just see 400 or so chinese getting dropped onto the rather hard and unyielding guideway, only to have the maglev car come apart on them.
A much better system is that provided by the Halbach Array Maglev, no superconductors, no feedback circuits, no power needed to lift the car once it is moving, and fully automatic compensation for load changes. Possibly the best solution for HSR in the United States, since it offers very very high speeds, without all the supporting infrastructure that a similar TGV or NEC style line incurs.
Somebody in Germany must have gotten a deal with some An-124 provider, first the first NJT Diesel LRV for the SNJLRTS arrives by plane, now they're shipping the chinese their maglev set via plane!
Unless of course, those really are subway cars, I hate to admit it, but I don't get the times, and cannot see the picture, so I'm kinda winging it. And, in case I am wrong, I apologize for having wasted space, and would direct anyone intrested in maglevs, or some good old maglev bashing to Railroad.net's HSR Forum, right now there is a so-so discussion of the merits and problems of maglevs.
The picture was in the NY Sunday News, not the Times.
In the Metro edition that I bought here in PA, the picture was on pg.51, right across from The Justice Story.
This is the picture from hasea.com in China. As you nay think why Bombardier send the train by airplane, the reason is that Bombardier has delayed their delievery. Fortunately, only 2 sets of trains is needed to be sent as even though the opening data of Guangzhou Metro Line No.2 is opened on 12-29 others are built in China by know-how transfer.
That is very similiar to the NY News picture except that the News picture is B/W, the cars are not that far out of the plane, and more of the left wing of the plane is shown.
Long weekend translates into a long post which takes a long time to write so here goes. As usual, all car numbers refer to the first car unless noted otherwise.
Thursday 11/28
The word of the day for Thursday was DESERTED (this word of the day didn't make it into the subject line but the others did)
Take the Red Line (Breda 4019) to Union Station, which I found to be deserted. Hardly anyone was there and most of the people near gate F were waiting for people on arriving trains (people come from gate G). I picked up some reading material (holiday schedule, VRE brochure, etc) and at decided to go see if the train display was up and running. It wasn’t but while I was checking that, my train was called, so when I got back, I went to get on board. It was Acela Express 2254 (Trainset 20 2026-2029). They had a quiet car, so I sat there. Just like the station, the train was essentially deserted. Got to New York on time and went upstairs to find that the area around the departure board was not deserted. Went to the subway to discover that my MetroCard was expiring at the end of December and only had 1 dollar. Unfortunately, the subway station was not totally deserted and I had to wait to get the agent to transfer my one dollar and add another 15 to a new card. I find I always get the slowest agents when I don’t really want them, not to mention they don’t understand enough English to make these transactions go fast enough. Seems to me they need to be stricter when they make hiring decisions. Bought a fun pass and went through the turnstile with my suitcase. I didn’t feel like asking the agent to open the gate for me since she took forever and a day to transfer my money. Got on the E (R32 3640) and took that to Lex (that construction zone at the west end is a disaster, just wait until Sunday) and transferred to the 6 (R142A 7505). Had a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner at an Italian restaurant on the Upper East Side (no turkey) and went to bed. I did see D60HF 5509 on the M79.
Friday 11/29: National Railfan Day
The word of the day for Friday was SKIP
Somehow got up at 6:15 and dozed until 7:15, listening to Transit and Weather together every 10 minutes on the 8s. Unfortunately, a certain meteorologist didn’t predict the nicest whether, but then again, I guess he would be out of a job if he reported that it was going to be 80 degrees and sunny. Personally, a hearing the high for the day is 35 degrees is not the high point of my day. That said, left at about 8 to walk to 86th Street, where a train of R33s on the 4 passed as I waited for a 5 train to the Bronx. That came, and I got on (R142 7030). The new interior LED displays don’t work, they need to do them how they did it originally (with the 125 ST NEXT, not the THE NEXT STOP IS… thing). At 3rd Avenue, we got a skip to 180th although we were going to have stops at Intervale and Freeman. The conductor covered the automated announcements in the stations but didn’t change the computer, so it did announce “THIS IS JACKSON AVENUE” and so on. I wanted pictures at Simpson, so I got off at Intervale and took the next train (R142 6736 on the 2) to Simpson, where I got pictures of the 142s and the Redbirds coming around the curve at the north end of the station. Eventually got back on a 2 (R142 6686) and took it to Tremont, where I got a picture of the last 5 express coming around the curve. As soon as it left, I look and see a train of R33s signed for Dyre coming in on the northbound track, so I run through the crossover, only to just miss them. A train to 180th comes in (R33 9116) and I take that one stop, where I am discharged, to see the train I missed out of service on the middle track. I guess I shouldn’t have felt bad about missing that train. Yet another 5 came in after that (R142 6766) which I took up to Dyre. I changed ends (now in 6836). We left about 3 minutes late because there was some confusion over which crew was supposed to take the train (this was the 0933 out of Dyre). Took that train to Gun Hill, where I took pictures of trains going by (missed getting a shot of Redbirds, I would have had them if I had gotten off at Baychester) and got back on R142 7000 to 180th. Hoped to get this 5 up to 238th that goes thru 180th at 0959 according to the schedule on the MTA site although it didn’t show. Got on a 2 (R142 6411) which I was going to take to Gun Hill but at Pelham, I saw a garbage train. Turned out to be R127s EP001 and EP002, so I photographed those, and waited in the wonderful weather for the next train. It eventually showed and I got on (R142 6601). At Gun Hill, we got a skip to 241st, so I decided to stay. This conductor turned off the automated announcements after 219th. At Wakefield, the train turned back almost immediately. I was in 6604 and took that to 238th, where I waited 10 minutes for the Bx16. While there, I got some pictures of the Bee Line buses in the area. I got TMC RTS 8894, which I took to the last stop at 205th Street. We had a student driver, so it was slow going at times, although a nice trip. There was some snow on the ground in Woodlawn Cemetery and Van Courtlandt Park. At 205th, I went back into the subway and got on the D (R68 2712).
Took the D to Fordham where I walked over to the Jerome El. A train was in the station, so I got on (R62 1340, 5th car) although at Bedford Park the train was held and I made it to the first car (1336). The trip to Woodlawn took some time since they wound up with an extra train and had to pull it out (R142As 7676-7685) and then there was congestion. Once I got to Woodlawn, I got the ability to say I’ve been to every stop in the Bronx (one borough down, 4 to go). Got pictures, then got back on 1336 and took it to Bedford Park Boulevard, where I got out and walked over to Train Dude Land. Got pictures from the bridge over the yard and of a Neoplan Artic for Bee Line. Missed a train when I got back to the platform so I had a few cookies while waiting for the next one, during which time a train of R142As went by. On the trip on the 4 to 149th Street (R62 1416), I saw one train of Redbirds, although it may have been the same set I had seen at 86th Street earlier (4 hours difference almost between sightings, someone can figure out if they were the same if they want). I decided to make a quick trip down to South Ferry to see Courtlandt and then go have lunch. Got on the 2 (R142 6565) with a very slow T/O (although I am convinced the R142 played a part in this). A 1 train left 42nd Street as we came in. It made the stop at 34th and was leaving as we arrived. We passed it before 14th where we saw another 1 pull out as we came in. The 2 left Chambers about 90 seconds before the leading 1 arrived. I got on (R62A 2196) and took it to South Ferry. There were people in the back half of the train, who had bewildered faces on as the train left with them still on it. While we waited for the next train, a lady asked if “this was the uptown platform”, explaining how she wanted to go to Chambers and wasn’t sure where to go. I told her it was and explained how there was a loop. Got on the next 1 (R62A 2285) which I took to Rector. We got stuck behind the first 1 which had to wait for the starting lights and missed a connection with a 3 as a result. Got the express (R142 6371) to Penn Station where I had a very quick lunch at Sbarro’s.
After lunch, it was off to the Flushing Line. To get there, I took the 3 to Times Square (R62A 1905) and then got on a local 7 to Queensboro Plaza (R36 WF 9629). At Queensboro, I looked around for some other railfans who I told that I would be out there and got pictures of an R40 slant on the N and R40Ms on the N (including the lone R42 on the N). After deciding the other railfans weren’t there, I got on an express to Willets Point (R36 WF 9644). This was one of my best rides on the Flushing Express ever. It was fast and had the Redbird feel we won’t have for much longer. On this ride, I saw someone taking pictures at 52nd Street (now about 2 PM), was it someone on this board? I took pictures at Corona Yard, then got on a train to Flushing (R62A 1701). At Flushing, I got on a train of Redbirds which I took to 103rd, but I was switching cars most of the time. At 103rd, I got a picture of two R62As neck and neck heading to Flushing with the train I had just gotten off in the background (a year ago it was three Redbirds in a picture :’(). A I ended up getting a picture of a Redbird speeding by on the express next to an R62A, then got on R36 WF 9571 to 90th, where I got even more pictures. After 90th, it was 2153 to 74th, 2114 to 52nd, 2090 to 46th, and finally, 9609 to 33rd. Of course, I got pictures at each location. At 33rd, it was freezing (at least that unnamed meteorologist gave an accurate forecast, even though it wasn’t a very nice one). After I was almost finished there and about to go back, I saw Flushing bound trains signed as expresses going by on the local. The automatic in the middle of the station on the middle track also changed to red. What was going on? Three trains went by without stopping as well for Manhattan bound, including one empty, two with passengers, making some people on the platform rather mad. Eventually, I got on a train to Queensboro Plaza (R36 WF 9579). As we arrived at Queensboro, a train of R40 slants arrived on the other platform on the N, so I took those to Lexington (4352). It was quite a ride and better than the last one through the 60th Street tube in a slant, when I must have gotten a slow T/O, because Friday’s run was much faster. At Lex, I got on the 6 to go back to where I was staying (R142A 7241). On the walk back to where I was staying, I saw a D60HF on the M102 (can’t recall the number).
Saturday 11/30
Word of the Day for Saturday was BUSY
Didn’t ride anywhere in the morning but after lunch, I had a little adventure. Went to get Bill Newkirk’s calendar (Bill, I assume you got my e-mail) at the Transit Museum store, so I took the 6 to Grand Central (R142A 7456). Although the museum didn’t have the calendar, I got an umbrella, the 4 and 6 beanie bears (which are very cute), several maps, and the number plate from car 7661 (an R22 I believe). Called 411 which didn’t have Penn Books in their directory from a pay phone. Not wishing to chance having the store closed on Sunday when I went to catch my train back home, I shuttled over to Times Square (R62A 1986) and then took the 1 to Penn Station (R62A 2230, 5th car). Found the bookstore (so much for 411’s reliability) and found out they didn’t have the calendar either. So it was off to the Met on the M4 (RTS 8983). I missed one M4 because the stop is in the middle of the block and you don’t really have any way of knowing that, but that is another matter. I just wish the terminal stops were where the bus map says they are. I also found out there was no stop on 81st Street and Madison (I like the limited but the M4 isn’t on weekends). Later, I went to see Les Miserables so I took the 6 (R142A 7492, 2nd car) to Grand Central and shuttled over to Times Square (R62A 1986, anyone realize I like this car and some of you already know I am not a Mets fan so that isn’t the connection). Excellent show although I’ve seen better. On the walk to the subway, I saw D60HF 1070 on the M79 with LED signs. After the show, I got 6063 on the M104 although I took a cab over to the East Side (other members of the party didn’t want to wait for the crosstown).
Sunday 12/1
The word of the day for Sunday was PACKED
Does the word of the day surprise anyone considering it is one of the busiest travel days of the year? Went to Penn Station on the 6 (R142A 7267, 9th car). At 51st, I changed for the E, which I heard come in with just a few more feet to go on the escalator. I picked up my suitcase (which is on wheels) and the shopping bag with 7668’s number plate and ran down the escalator. By the time I got there, the doors had opened, but I ran around the wooden supports, people yielded to me seeing I had every intention to get on the train, and I made it on to the train (R32 3568) and situated myself at the railfan window for the trip to 34th Street. There were a few rough starts out of the stations but we did 30 around the curve entering 50th Street, the way the subway should be run! At Penn Station, things were crowded. I got the new HBLR and NJT schedules and went to the Acela waiting room. I got there at about 11:10 for a noon train. At about 11:35, red caps started taking people to the platform. I asked the waiting room attendant what track it was on, he told me (12), went down one level, and found a staircase, so I was there before the train was. Took the train (Acela Express 2251, Trainset #6 2030-2031) which was sold out to Washington, where we arrived on time. My arriving on the platform when I did didn’t get me the window seat I wanted and I did have to share (as did everyone), but it was still nice. No quiet car this time. This is this third time I got that trainset and there are now footprints (white) all over the vestibules and the bathroom doors still don’t lock! Got to Washington, saw the model train at Union Station (same Norwegian display as its been the past few years), and took the Metro (Breda 3227 with the same operator I had on Thursday) home.
Betcha didn't know that an expired or almost-expired MetroCard can be traded in at an MEM (or MVM, I think)! Just tell the machine you want to add money to the card and it'll offer to replace it with a new one.
I thought that was just the original MEM at 34th Street.
No, that one allowed trade-ins no matter what. That feature has been disabled, but the machines will still trade in expired cards.
IS that really true? And me like a Nassau hole have been throwing them out when I forget about one and they happened to expire.
I don't want to sound stupid, but what's a MEM (as opposed to a MVM MetroCard Vending Machine)?
An MEM takes only plastic/no cash, does not sell single rides and is much smaller than an MVM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Even if you didn't know about automatic trade-ins at machines, I'm surprised you didn't know that any S/A can trade-in any MetroCard until one year past the expiration date. After that, it's lost whatever value it had.
Pure stupidity on my part I guess. I only threw out a "good" card twice. Once it expired with $1.50, the other time like $3.00, or something, so no big deal, but it could have been 3 subway rides.
I knew, it just didn't consider my card to be "almost expired" so I wasn't able to get the machine to do it.
Oh, I guess over a month before expiration is too early. On 12/1 the machine probably would have done the trade-in.
I knew, the MVM just didn't consider my card to be "almost expired" so I wasn't able to get the machine to do it.
On Friday at about 4 PM or so, I was at 33rd Street. The automatic in the middle of the station on the express track went to red and several express trains went through on the local track without stopping. Also, 2 or 3 trains heading to Manhattan skipped the station, including one that was running light. What was going on?
No complaints from me, I got plenty of pictures of the passing trains!
I saw someone take a picture of the train I was on at about 2 PM on Friday as it passed 52nd Street on the 7. The lead car of this Flushing bound express was 9644 and I was at the railfan window.
Does anyone know how many of Amtrak's E60CP locomotives are still in service? I know almost nothing about these things, but I was under the impression that some are still being used. Thanks for any info.
Frank Hicks
Let's see, the number is somewhere under 10 and they are mostly used from between NYP and PHL. I know that 600, 601, 609, 607, 605, 610 and 603 are definitly operating.
I see them very often in Penn Station, #601-609 are still running...matter of fact, I saw them at New Brunswick and Penn Station on Saturday. Question is, why weren't they retired sooner, all of this while the AEM-7s are all over the place?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Third Avenue Elevated
Even with all the AEM's Amtrak still has shortages of electric locomotives. That is why most long haul trains have the power change at Philly. Furthermore, the E60's with their 6 axles have more tractive effort for starting heavy long haul trains.
E60's are beasts!
There is also something to do with the brakes that the AEM's don't have but the E60's do. Mayhap it has to do with Roadrailers or something (but that program ended...)
Yeah, but the TE on the E60 drops like a rock above 15mph. by 30, it's no better than the HHP-8, by 60, it's pretty close to 1/2 the HHP-8's.
Anyway, the E-60's were always crap from day one - poor tracking, obsolete technology, ugly as hell, and not very reliable. My guess is Amtrak would have dumped the units if not for the current motor shortage. NJT dumped theirs almost as fast as they arrived...
The E60, in it's current incarnation as the E60MA, is all but dead.
The original E60CP was basically a western coal hauler regeared for 125mph operation. The 125 mph operation thing didn't work out, they had enormous truck hunting problems, and were regeared again, this time dropping them to 90mph. It woudln't be until the AEM7 a few years later that 125mph running on the NEC would be realized. The E60CP can be recognized by it's large water tank located under the body between the trucks.
At some point the E60CPs gained a HEP generator, and became E60CHs, which, so far as I can tell, are identical to the E60CPs. There must be some difference, perhaps somebody else can shed some light on that.
But amtrak never really seemed to like the E60, it had screwwed up the 125mph thing, and required them to go overseas to find a replacement. I know that with the coming of the AEM7 Amtrak unloaded tons of E60CHs and CPs on NJT, which used them on their NEC and New Jersey Coast Line trains. Today one or two of these remain, I know one is slated for a New Jersey rail museum, whether it will wear NJT or Amtrak colors I don't know.
There are only 11 E60s left in service, they have been renumbered from the 900 series to the 600 series. The last E60CHs to go were 620 and 621, which were used in work service, and, until their deaths sometime around the summer of '01, were the twelfth and thirteenth E60s left on the property. 620 has had it's pantographs removed, and looks a mess, 621 is missing a whole axle and traction motor. Apparantly both are sitting in Bear, Delaware, near the Wilmington Amtrak station.
Now all that is left are the 11 E60MAs, numbered 600 through 610. The E60MA elminated the water tank, and placed all the HEP gear down there. These thing still see very active service, often they pull the long distance trains from florida and so on up to New York through the Penn Tunnels. The HHP-8 was supposed to allow them to be retired, but those have all the problems the Acelas have, and somebody (wisely) decided to hang onto the E60MAs just a bit longer. I see them frequently because I go to Drexel University, which has several buildings that overlook the 30th St Station/Race St Engine facility, where usually two or three E60MAs can be found hanging about.
A few months ago, before Drexel loaded on the work, and I got scared off the Engine Yard, I took some close up photos of E60MA 608 waiting for a northbound florida train, which i posted in my rather paltry webshots account. I'm sure that ChuChuBob may have newer pictures, and I know they're still operating. You may also want to check the Amtrak Photo Archive
, there are lots of pictures of E60CHs and E60MAs there.
I actually have a video with the E60CP's for NJT on the North Jersey Coast Line. This question has been bugging me for some time so maybe you guys can help me with this. When NJT aquired the E60CP's, they were usually hauling the Comet II coaches and cabs. How come I never saw these locos pushing these cars? Weren't these locos capable of push/pull service?
no the E60 were not setup for push pull the throttle is more than 8 notches for exsample on E60's , and also resets and pan up/down did not work from cab cars.
Thanks for the highly detailed info.
I'm sure that ChuChuBob may have newer pictures...
#600 last Sunday
Does anyone have photos of the area at Lex/63rd that was supposed to be used for the 2nd Ave Subway? I've tried to find pics of it but no dice.
I doubt any pics exist. You looking for a detail of it?
Mainly pics, but anything is fine.
I may know a thing or two about it. Ask your question.
The station itself, behind the wall, is bare concrete. It is lit with flourescent fixtures hanging from the ceiling, and would be usable as is (it would look bland though and it'd require signage). I got a good look at it in 1997 when the door to the finished part was open. A laid up R32 N train was sitting on the track.
I have a related question. What happens to the existing 63rd/Lex (F) station once the 2nd Ave line opens. It seems like the intention was to make the station a cross-platform transfer, but to make that happen would mean tearing down a good portion of the existing station. Will the platforms be turned into islands or will they just build coridors between the existing station and a new 2nd Ave/Bwy platform?
:-) Andrew
The existing platforms ARE island platforms. The "wall" is just a facade and can easily be removed. It is only about a foot or two from the other edge, against which is the other track.
Then it's interesting that they bothered to do anything with it. The orange brick is the major defining feature of the station.
:-) Andrew
I've been in the station shell, about five years ago on a Transit Museum tour. Took some photos but I was only carrying a little fully-automatic point'n'shoot so the pics didn't turn out well enough to scan. It's basically an empty shell, full staircases and mezzanine area, provisions for escalators, all in raw concrete.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey guys...(Doug, Thurston, Lou, et. all)...
I am going to be in NYC for Xmas week....I need a railfan trip :) Any ideas?? You guys going to be up for it??
-Jeremy
If I'm in the city for WCBS work, I'd be pleased to join in. We can talk Transit and Weather Together.
At this point I have the week following off, to watch Justin break his new toys, but I would be happy to take a day off the week of Christmas ... maybe Monday 12/23 or Thursday 12/26 or even Friday 12/27. Probably be going to Binghamton that week-end, so for me it would need to be a week day.
I only have Xmas/New Year eves off as well as the actual day. I can not get any days off until Feb (though I am greaving that they have to give me my floating holiday when I want it, they still owe me election day).
I would love to join you guys any time after 4pm (or meet at either queens plaza at 4pm when I get out).
Lou, don't you get Monday, January 20? It's MLK Day, and more important, my Mom's 81st birthday!! Our mutual employer, the Board- er, Department of Ed still allows us that. But I get a creeping sensation Hizzoner would like to strip us non-pedagogs of some of our paid holidays. True, that would STILL be better than layoffs-
In any event, I get off work at 4:00 in downtown Brooklyn, and with no after-schoool program to have to retrieve anyone from, am available for railfanning that strangely fragmented week (Work Mon 23; off Tue 24 and Wed 25; work Thu 26 and Fri 27). Rush-hour trains are considerably less crowded that week, especially to the outer boroughs. But the touristy areas of Manhattan are murder. The early sunset makes for some great skyline views if it's clear out.
"... Monday, January 20? It's MLK Day, and more important, my Mom's 81st ..."
Would you believe my mom will be 80 on Jan 21st ?
Peggy and I will be hitting the metals on Saturday, Dec. 21, starting at about 9AM, Penn Station, for a scheduled 9 hour tour.
wayne
I'll probably be at The Point that week-end doing a turn at "Winter Fest" there 5 to 9 PM ... burrr ... that is if I thaw out from this Saturday night.
I'm at BERA with Santa on the Trolley...
Ditto for me... hopefully it won't decide to snow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will be at BERA on 22nd
Peter the Pole
I'll be with you two in spirit.
Here's something very strange that I saw when I was walking along Fresh Pond Road. For those of you who know Ridgewood, there is a set of tracks that runs straight through the neighborhood. It's usually for freights, but they're somehow connected with LIRR tracks that run through Glendale, and also connects to Fresh Pond Yard. My question is, why the hell would IRT Subway Cars be in a BMT train yard? What the hell does Fresh Pond yard have that these subway cars need to go there?
I've spotted this today at 5:00 P.M., at Fresh Pond Road and Myrtle Av.. Right there I saw these 3 R142 subway cars seperated(single car units) on the elevated track. Although I believe there was more than that, I could only see those 3. I really wish I had my camera to see this rare sighting. They were just sitting there all day!
For those of you who know anything about why these R142's came to my area, feel free to answer.
Looks like these 5 cars are ready to be delivered into the system. 10 Cars were shipped in the last day or so. I would assume that in addition to Cars 7121-25, 7116-20 are also here.
Fresh Pond Yard is the Freight Yard that you saw them in, not the M Line Yard.
Cars from upstate NY are delivered by freight to Queens, unloaded in Fresh Pond, and travel on their own wheels to Linden Yard. NYCT picks them up from there for delivery to the Bronx.
-Stef
Looks like these 5 cars are ready to be delivered into the system. 10 Cars were shipped in the last day or so. I would assume that in addition to Cars 7121-25, 7116-20 are also here.
...and you know what happens when you assume.
6896-6900 came down with 7121-7125 on Sunday Night.
(Read your e-mail Stef!) 8-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Oops!. I got ahead of myself. Haven't seen either of those sets on this end here. Will report their arrival if they come through.
-Stef
HEY!!!! WE MUST HAVE BEEN A BLOCK AWAY FROM EACHOTHER HAHAHAHA i was wishin i had my camera too lololol
i was on the corner of genovese on myrtle ave when i saw them, took me a sec to realize they were subway cars but small world aint it!!
Maybe they use the freight line to transport the subway cars, its not uncommon for subway cars to go via "out of palce" tracks to arrive on NYCT trackage/property. This is what I think but sorry, this probably is not the dfinite or complete answer.
Welcome the newborns, 7123, 7124,& 7125 to our city!
Saw 8262-65 and 8282-85 heading over the Willy B at aound 8:15pm on Monday heading to Piken Yard. I then say 8262-65 @ Braodway Junction, waiting to get back inside the Yard.
I do not know if the onec inbetween are on the TA Grounds yet, i will look more next Monday when I am @ ENY for my job.
Robert
Lots of days I find myself needing to do some grocery shopping on the way home from work, so I get off the Market Frankford line at 40th Street and walk to the grocery store at 40th and Walnut. Then I walk with my groceries down to the 40th Street trolley portal to catch the 13. The distance is just a little longer than I really like to walk when loaded down with groceries, yet there is not even a bus that runs the whole way from the MFL station to the trolley portal. The stretch of 40th street between Market and Baltimore is dense with retail, restaurant, and entertainment businesses. I think it would be a great idea to have a frequent circulator of some sort running a loop that would conveniently shuttle people between the two rail stops. I think a trolley loop would be a great idea since there are already tracks on most of this part of 40th Street. (This may have been part of the Philadelphia Trolley Coalition's University City circulator trolley proposal, but I don't know.) I'd even be happy with another LUCY bus route...I should think U Penn would have an interest in this. I think there's a need for something. I just think it's odd that such a busy corridor has such poor transit.
Mark
Never let SEPTA's ineptitude surprise you.
That sounds like a great idea, the tracks and wires are already there! At least I think so......
Chuck Greene
This morning I had a treat while riding the N train to school, it was rerouted over the Manny B. It was nice going over the bridge on the N (even though it was an R68), it felt like home to me. Then at canal street, they annouced that it was going express! I unfortunately couldn't stay on, I had a test. I was so disapointed, I was like, "why couldn't this happen tomorrow!" but it was nice while it lasted.
Shouldn't they have announced it was going express before it went over the Manhattan Bridge, skipping all the stops in lower Manhattan?
Announcement was probably made at DeKalb Ave.
more like announcement in Pacific St, the N probably skipped DeKalb
Nice while it lasted? Hell, you should be celebrating to beat the band. You know what? If I happened to be your teacher and you told me that story I would have told you that you were a fool for not riding the express because I would've been more than happy to give you a make-up exam. Then, again, since your teacher is not a Sea Beach man like we are, he probably wouldn't know what the hell he was missing.
Too bad it wasn't a train of slants or good old R-32s.
Having the train go express isn't nearly as important as having it go over the bridge. The Motingue Tunnel is a bad ride for anyone going north of Canal, with SEVEN extra stops and lots of two mile per hour curves (though the tunnel itself is better than the bridge). Going express on Broadway would save just FOUR stops through Times Square, and that's on straight track. As a matter of fact, the train only skips six stops on 4th Avenue now, and that's on straight track.
Well actually the Broadway express starts at Dekalb Av since it does skip 7 stops by going straight to Canal St via bridge then skips 5 more stops in Manhattan [4 on the W] so 12 stations skipped on the Q and 11 on the W.
For N riders, its a big deal if the train makes a unexpected express runs since people who are not affected would have a nice treat and really save some time skipping the 11 stations it normally stops at. The N only skips 6 stops b/c it was designed that way and it turns off after 59 St, its not the same N we know of from the past but its return may come in 1 1/2 years. And BTW, you mean south of Canal St.
Actually, as the tracks are arranged now, the continuous express runs all the way from 59th in Brooklyn to 57th in Manhattan, with express stops at 59th, 36th, Pacific, (not DeKalb,) Canal, 14th, 34th, 42nd, and 57th. From south to north, the express has a merge with the West End, a merge with the Brighton (after DeKalb), and a diverge to the north side of the bridge (currently closed); the local has a merge with the West End, a merge with the Brighton, and a diverge to Nassau. There are also a handful of switches between local and express.
I'm sure many N passengers get off at 36th, Pacific, and DeKalb to transfer to bridge trains. I assume that most passengers who remain on the N are trying to get to the 7-8 bypassed stops (or perhaps to Prince or 8th, since transferring at Canal is a pain). To them, being sent over the bridge is a most unwelcome surprise. It's also an unwelcome surprise to anyone waiting at any of those 7-8 bypassed stations, especially those who need specifically the N, since now they have a longer gap between trains than usual.
Then throw in all the slow speed orders like after Dekalb Av, the not so fast Montague and the notorious slowdown at City Hall, lucky for me, most places I have to go I almost never have to ride the local unless I voluntarily do so. You're right, transferring at Canal is a real pain if you are trying to go from the exp to the local. If they are going to Prince or 8 St, I'd rather take the exp to 14 St then go back to the Brooklyn bound side and catch the local, that looks more sensible than goin through the torture in lower Manhattan.
So ride a bridge train. My point is that, by the time the N reaches DeKalb, most of its passengers specifically want a tunnel train. Sending their train express doesn't help them -- it forces them to get off and wait for the local behind it. How would you feel if you were trying to get to Whitehall to catch a ferry?
And am I the only railfan who finds sharp curves exhilirating?
(And am I the only railfan who finds sharp curves exhilirating?)
Perhaps. To me and most, there is nothing like a long, straight express taken at 40 plus miles per hour, especially if you have a seat and need some sleep.
Like the Sea Beach of memory. There was nothing like seeing a Triplex roar down 4th Avenue in Brooklyn whizzing by stations and picking up speed at each bypassed stop. That was exhilirating.
Ditto for the Broadway express sprint on a train of R-32s.
Of course, CPW was an express race track when the R-10s were still around.
I'd move to South Dakota if that's all I found exciting.
I suppose all the filthy rats in that rodent infested hole called the Montague Tunnel is also very exhilirating, too? Well, if they make the N a permanent express, people would learn in time that they must take the rancid R to get where they are going. And, no, I don't find those screeching turns anything but a turnoff. Sorry to disagree with you bro but that's the way it is. I only wish I could have been in New York to enjoy some real nostalgia with my train doing what it was designed to do=====be a Broadway Express.
Wayne does. The more screeching, the merrier.:)
That Broadway express run is pretty swift. Even the R-68s on the Q moved at a brisk pace during my visit in October.
It seems like Broadway is a "fast track" as I call it. The Broadway express trains seems to gain speed as fast as the IRT or faster than the other trunk lines with express trains
Well Larry, four's better than none. Besides, if we Sea Beach brigands ask for the moon we might get a piece of the rock. Express baby, the Sea Beach needs to be an express as it was designed to be and was until the TA shafted my line. Anyway, I dream big. Have a great day big guy.
Oh well, maybe another time [maybe in a GO] you could ride a "express N" in Manhattan and over bridge but come 2004, it should once again be the norm. I'm sure a certain someone[you know who you are] got to the thread already ;-).
Yes Flatbush 41 I know who I am and I did get to the post. I liked it. I even told him he should have rode the express through and ask for a make-up test, then realized I wasn't his teacher and the guy might not understand.
Fred, I would have probably rode it just to get that rare moment of the N not being called Never. From what you're saying, of course YOU would have rode it and come to school late and come up with a excuse to get a make up[I would too ;-)] but not everyone, of course the teacher probably won't, has the mind of railfans like us.
Don't worry. If all goes well, the N will run like that regularly in 2 years.
And if it comes to pass, Fred will be turning somersaults and leaping handsprings, all the while saying:
I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW IT!!!!! I KNEW IT!!!!!
I don't know how I would look doing it but I would certainly give it the old college try if this did become permanent. The Sea Beach Express again. Wow!!!!!
Is this a sign of things to come? Will the fabled "Sea Beach" express rise like the pheonix out of the ashes? Will #4 Sea Beach Fred be able to ride his favorite train on the BMT express tracks sooner rather than later? Was this a test run? The T/A, have they gone crazy? We'll never know, but it is very interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Has the TA ever been sane?:) They've had more hairbrained schemes than Ralph Kramden.
If the N does go back to being an express via bridge where it rightfully belongs, Fred will be turning handsprings while Bob will be rolling his eyes and shaking his head.:)
Ah, who give a hoot in hell about Bob. Let him get used to it. Besides I'll be laughing my ass off because one of his Brightons would be consigned to permanent duty as a Local. That would be rich.
Bob would have the last laugh, I'm afraid. There would still be a Brighton express. Of course, you two could debate it to your hearts' content.:)
My blood is beginning to get stirred real good. Am I just setting myself up for another fall? That is what worries me. Let me tell you this, if the Sea Beach was made into an express again I think I would hop on the first plane and ride it as fast as I could. It would really be something special for me.
Well Fred, that would be interesting to ride a N Sea Beach express since I wasn't even born for the NX, not to break the bubble but I do not see a regular service express N on the Sea Beach in the future but the Manny B express run looks more like a reality come 2004.
I hate to nurst your bubble. It was only a temporary change, but it might be a test run for the real thing. If they should start to run the Sea Beach Line train express on at least a portion of its run on a regular basis, I'll let you know.
#3 West End Jeff
Lets see how fast Fred comes down to NY, he'll take the Concord for an even speedier trip if he finds out the N runs express in Manhattan again and the long shot Sea Beach express makes a return ;-).
Knowing #4 Sea Beach Fred, he would take the Concorde to New York if it was available to ride on the express "N" and the long shot Sea Beach express. Maybe he'd even take a flight on a "Blackbird" spy plane if they were running the "Triplexs" on the Sea Beach Line as an express run on a fan trip.
#3 West End Jeff
You got that straight guys. I'd come as fast as I could--even if I had to commandere a plane myself. Keep your fingers crossed that my hopes are not in vain.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that your hopes aren't in vain either.
#3 West End Jeff
I owe you a call Jeff. I'll try and touch base with you tomorrow. And let's plan on next spring to get together in Coney Island.
I hope that I'll meet you at Coney Island in the spring. The "Cyclone" is expected to open up on Sunday April 13, 2003. In the meantime, let's hope that there is no transit strike. That is one thing New York City doesn't need.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Fred, you can always say a rosary.:)
I hate to burst your bubble. It was only a temporary change, but it might be a test run for the real thing. If they should start to run the Sea Beach Line train express on at least a portion of its run on a regular basis, I'll let you know.
#3 West End Jeff
You'd be saying to the pilot, "Can't you make this damn plane go any faster?":)
Just think: you're at Times Square and a s/b N pulls in on the express track. You elbow your way on, saying "Outta my way! This is Sea Beach Fred's train!" The train zips along Broadway, blowing past 28th and 23rd and, after pausing at Union Square, 8th and Prince. As the train dives down and curves into the Canal St. bridge station, you get more and more excited. You can't wait to be on the bridge again. Then at about mid-point, you see it - a rat!!! You yell, "Hey! What are you doing here? Get back in that Montague St. tunnel where you belong!!!" The train skips DeKalb and after stopping at Pacific, gets up a good head of steam down 4th Ave. Then all of a sudden, you see what appears to be a person ahead on the trackbed with a devilish grin. Yikes - it's Hillary!!! You pound on the cab door and yell, "Don't stop! Don't stop!!" Just like that, she vanishes into thin air. ARRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! Soon enough, you're out on the Sea Beach's open cut, ducking through tunnels and marveling at renovated stations. Then the train reaches Stillwell Ave. Wow, they've really fixed the place up! You disembark and make a beeline for the Cyclone, but it's not there!!!!! You let out a bloodcurdling yell and are about to singlehandedly demolish the boardwalk when you feel someone shaking you. You yell "No!! No!! NO!!!", then wake up in a cold sweat to find Linda shaking you. You start telling her all about it and she just rolls her eyes.
Steve, I don't know what I'd do without you. That was absolutely a gem. I'm even printing it to show to Linda. I think she will come to two conclusions:
1. How does this guy from Colorado know my husband as well as I do, and.....
2. Someday she will have to meet you to see if you are real or just a figment of her imagination.
LOL
Have you told Linda I was at Shea Stadium on the day you married her?:)
No, damn it. I forgot. I will tell her as soon as I get off this computer.
I almost forgot: in that dream sequence, that N train is routed via the express track through the Sea Beach open cut due to a stalled train. Too good to be true, ain't it?:)
Too good to be true. Yes, that's about it. The only thing missing from that dream I was supposed to have was when I saw that rat near Canal Street that turned out to be Hillary. That would have made it almost perfect. Perfect would have been the Sea Beach making a splat of that rodent.
That rat was on the bridge. He was hopping from tie to tie.
Check out this neat site with photos of the Moscow Metro. Using a fisheye lens is a great way to get the whole view of the station and feel like you're standing there. This person does a very good job with the stations she photographed. With absolutely stunning stations like this, no wonder Moscow has the world's busiest subway, I'm sure many people would ride it solely for the views.
Is that a train station or an art gallery? Unbelieveable.
think 'imperial monument'. Stalin had this built with essentially an unlimited budget--slave labor. Today, we in Ca have a very small "art in transit stations" program, as a "frill". The priorities were clearly different. (You give ME his budget you'll have Second Ave up and running in three years. 'Course NIMBYs will be cleaning up nuclear plants in the hinterlands, and factories which produce low MDBF cars will be turned into 'reeducation' centers.
think 'imperial monument'. Stalin had this built with essentially an unlimited budget--slave labor.
True, but by all appearances the system is being superbly maintained after 60+ years.
I think the builder of this system in his later years took off his shoe in the UN and banged the shoe on a table.
Nikita Khrushchev banged his shoe at the UN. The Moscow Metro was slave-built under Stalin.
Mark
"In the 1930s Khrushchev was promoted from one political position to the next, until finally, in 1935, he became second in command of the Moscow Communist Party. In Moscow, Khrushchev oversaw construction of much of Moscow's subway system, and in 1939 he became a full member of the Politburo."
Whatever the case, you gotta admit the communist propaganda paintings and scluptures RULE.
I need to ask my Russian friend if we can go to Moscow together, I would spend the entire trip photographing this work of art that doubles as a subway.
>>>Is that a train station or an art gallery? Unbelieveable. <<<
True, and a wonderful website to boot. I wish she had pictures of their equipment, though.
Peace,
ANDEE
That third shot was really psychedelic man !!
Was this camera film or electronic ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I emailed her and she said its a Nikon digital camera. She put a fisheye lens extension and took 4 photos at 90 degrees and Photoshopped them together, so what we are looking at is a 360 degree view of the station. Very effective.
Very nice site....
But... When I checked the rest of *this* site, I could not find any pictures of the Moscow subway. Now there is a project for sallamalla to tackle. See if he can smuggle out railfanwindowpictures without KBG catch him!
:0 Elias
There's no pictures from Moscow on this site. Sorry!
(Although I have a bunch from Bernard Chatreau he might let me use...)
We will just have to go and get some :)
Simon
Swindon UK
If it's legal to take them, I might be able to get some St Petersburg metro photos next year. I went to the London office of Intourist yesterday to enquire about our proposed trip - and was astonished to find that the office was about ten feet x ten feet, staffed by one (helpful) person! And this is the famous Intourist - how are the mighty fallen.
If it's legal to take them, I might be able to get some St Petersburg metro photos next year.
It was legal when my younger daughter was there in 1998... don't know if the rules have changed since then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems as of December 4 the photos are no longer on the site. If you go the home page, the links are there, but a "not on this server" pops up. A shame.
Working now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The section of this site covering transit systems around the world doesn't have any pictures from Russia. Presumably this is because of the authorities' historically robust attitude towards any kind of dissent, leading to visitors not trying photography there. Do we know whether this has changed in the period since the end of the Soviet Union? It would be really good to have some Moscow (and St Petersburg) pictures on this site.
I would imagine that they would encourage photography because it would show off their system to the world and possibly bring in tourist $$$ to the city. I know that looking at these photos has now made me want to go to Moscow some time in the future.
Received this form Joe Brennan:
Re,
PM > What I got from the correspondence was that he didn't feel it was worth
PM > his effort to go out there himself.
I did go out though. The two photos at street level were really taken
on site in March 2002. I walked all the way from Euclid Ave to the
cemetery at 80 St, looking for any sign of grates or hatches.
As far as Grant Ave, you see numerous gratings, but then there's nothing besides normal manholes and a Con Ed grating in front of the cemetery. It's quite a difference.
Post this if you want.
Joe
That settles it as far as I'm concerned. Not that I ever really believed there was anything there anyway. Otherwise Joe would have had something on it.
To me it just means any subway gradings that were built were covered over a long time ago.
To me it just means any subway gradings that were built were covered over a long time ago.
Yes, aliens from the planet Marklar covered up the marklar over the 76th Street marklar a long marklar ago.
And I thought it was just NYC installing new sidewalks.
Can someone post a link to the original post on this topic so I know what you're talking about?
What Does Joe Brennan Say About 76th Street?
and
76th Street Redux - PRO and CON
then follow the threads.
What he really needs to see is the original April 1at post on the subject. Original Post
: ) Elias
Subway historian David Rogoff prepared a track plan of the 76 St station area at an unknown date, but it was probably not published before it appeared in the Bulletin of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association in July 2001. It shows both the original route to 76 St and the later route to the el via Grant Ave
Just to clear up a point here. Dave Rogoff dated the map May 12,1965 for pages 1 and 2, June 2,1965 for page 3 and June 11, 1965 for page 4. He prepared it for an ERA Fantrip on the IND Rail Polisher. (This was a regularly scheduled work train of R 1-9's that traveled the system late at night for the purpose of running over seldom used switches and bits of track. I've had my copy for 37 years. The map never appeared in The Bulletin but was distributed to those who rode the trip and additional copies were sold at ERA Meetings by Arthur Lonto.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for posting some background clarification about this map Larry. I have had my copy of Rogoff's IND track map for almost as long (35 years), having picked it up at an ERA NY Division meeting. One thing about Rogoff's original map, was that he wrote a note on the page where the track layout beyond Euclid Ave. through 76th St. station was diagrammed. It basically said (map is at home, I'm on the computer at work and quoting from memory): tracks beyond bulkhead never built, proposed only. Whether or not any structure in whole or part has ever been built, that note should never have been deleted from this page when it was put up on the internet. The map is a secondary source that has become an unofficial reference for those interested in NY subway history and development. Deleting Rogoff's note misleads from his original purpose, since, as we can see (and post ourselves) from the various 76th st. threads, this altered page has been used as backup for opinions that the entire structure beyond the bulkhead was completed.
Ed: Dave was very precise in his preparation of historical materials. For completeness sake he included several items that were planned but never built but was careful to them as such. I wasn't aware that the version of the map on the internet had deleted to refernce to "never built" as I was working off my original.
How's the weather out. Must be mighty cold.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Is there a link to that map?
Is there a link to that map?
Mitch: e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com and I'll tell you how you can get one.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Aha ... I can see that the Men in Black got to Joe too. It's a COVERUP! I'll wager that if we were to examine the Con Ed grating, not only would we find a complete consist of Arnines, but they'd be shuttling the gray ones back and forth to Rockaway. :)
Here's something interesting from the www.chicago-L.org website. The CTA is proposing an extension to the Blue Line, beginning at its current terminus of O'Hare and traveling to Schaumburg. Two possible routes are contemplated, but the northern one (along the Kennedy Expressway) is more desirable because of the businesses and industrial parks along that route that would generate more traffic. The article cited on www.chicago-L.org says that some have even suggested eventually extending the Blue Line as far as Elgin. Now, doesn't "third rail line to Elgin" ring a bell? ;-)
Frank Hicks
Here's an idea: in Fanstasyland where money is plentiful and NIMBYs are not, you could build both lines and make it a terminal loop. That would be really cool, even though in our Realityland things like that don't happen.
Mark
It'd be about a 30-mile "terminal loop," so I don't know how practical it'd be. Plus the density out there is hardly conducive to large transit investments. The proposed terminal for both options is the largest mall in Chicagoland, plus significant offices and an Ikea. One of the few places with enough going on to even consider rail transit in the suburbs here.
Personally I think it'd be better in the long run to use the southern route and zone and build up around it in transit-friendly manners. I hate median-located rail. It's even louder, it's colder, it's stinky. But it's cheaper, it's biggest advantage.
That's why I said it was a Fantasyland project. I like non-median right-of-ways better, too. It's easier to build pedestrian-friendly developments around the stations if the line isn't in a median. I used to like the idea of a train whizzing down the median to remind the people stuck in traffic that they have another option, but I'm not sure how well this really works.
Mark
I don't think that map is wholely accurate. Isn't it Interstate 290, the Eisenhower, that goes up the western side of Busse woods through Schaumberg? I know it becomes Illinois Rt 53 somewhere along there. They show 294, which is the Tri State tollway, and it runs roughly north-south, but does it over on the opposite side of O'hare, just off the map. Just outside the city, I 294 and 290 run parallel for a little bit, but theres practically no interchange between them, so unless all of the tristate, from wisconsin to indiana is now 290, and all of the Eisenhower is 294, from the post office in downtown to schaumberg, then who ever made the map was a bit confused.
You know, you're completely right! I hadn't even noticed the "route number" on the Interstate because I knew where it was, but that's definitely the 290 extension and not 294 as the map says. The typo strikes again!
Frank Hicks
What they don't explain in either of these proposals is how they'll deal with all the people from Rosemont to Division Street who will then be unable to board their train in the morning because it's already packed full of people from Schaumburg and Mt. Prospect. Without additional capacity (express tracks?) further inbound, this proposal is doomed to failure. As it is most mornings already, inbound Blue Line trains are usually packed before they even get to Logan Square, and people further inbound are forced to literally fight their way onto a train.
As much as I generally favor rapid transit expansion, I think this proposal is nothing more than a pie-in-the-sky ploy to curry favor with Northwest suburbanites in order to ease NIMBY opposition of O'Hare expansion, which has been linked to the Blue Line proposal. What's needed out in Schaumburg is better Metra and Pace service, not the siphoning off of an already-strained city infrastructure.
Actually, what's needed more than anything else out in Schaumbrg is a dose of sanity in order to reign in their malignant proliferation of strip malls and cookie-cutter McMansions. If these suburbanites really want the benifits of city living such as convenient transit, nobody is stopping them from moving back into the damn city. Their traffic-choked highways are the price they pay for the lifestyle they've chosen.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Very well stated, David. I was formulating a reply along the same lines. Last I heard, the "C" in CTA stands for Chicago. CTA would do well to improve rapid transit within the city limits: improving service on existing lines, upgrading the infrastructure, extending lines to the Far South Side, implementing the proposed inner city Circle Line, etc., etc.
This idea is really, really stupid in terms of moving people. Maybe it's smart political maneuver by someone.
RailDriver has announced it will be shipping its MS Train Sim control panel by the end of December.
Here's the link.
Nice. Would be nice if it worked with BVE as well.
Paul
B"H
it'd be nice if MSTS worked well. ;)
MSTS works just fine...if your computer system has the "cajones" to handle it.....as with MANY of today's intense simulation programs.
I'm sure you could program it to. Since you can assign keyboard functions to it, make the reverser be front arrow and rear arrow, etc etc...
BVE will work with a JOYSTICK if you're so inclined ... since I've had the "pleasure" of playing with an R143, a joystick is a natural when running 143's in BVE ... and nothing fancy required either. If I read the details correctly on the raildriver site, the controller for MSTS can be "adjusted" programmatically to provide the keys for use with BVE as well, but I'd write the manufacturer and ask if the "keys out" can be reprogrammed. I'm betting it CAN ...
But who wants to run a GP40 or SD80 control stand for subway cars? :)
And the CD you were going to send me?
Email me an address and we'll get it out tomorrow.
Funny, the thing isn't out yet and already the price has gone up twenty bucks!
First time I saw the page, it said $129.95.
Look at the bright side side on this. Maybe next year, they'll develope the controls for subway cars. I would personally rather have the controls for Push-Pull Comet cab cars and Arrow III MU's. I already own a controller from the NYC subway.
Went to Canal Street today and looked at what was going on.
The crossover to northbound platforms totally gone.
The northbound express track has been halfway of the length filled with cement.
What is the whole purpose of this - why can't they leave the stations as they originally were built (especially Chambers)???
That's a question I hope someone has a answer too.To me it really makes no sense at all.
Chambers isn't being touched in this project. Perhaps it will be realigned in a later project -- personally, I doubt it -- but trains currently use a two-track alignment between Chambers and Canal, and all that the current project is changing is the four-track alignment from Canal to Essex.
Chambers - the elephant in the room that nobody sees and nobody wants to admit is there.
wayne
They're in self-denial over the fact that Chambers St. looks like the main building at Ellis Island before renovation.
Watch: one day that station is going to cave in or implode onto itself and they'll be scratching their heads saying, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......"
It looks like a dungeon with the abandoned platforms, w/o any sufficient service, it will continue to be in the condition it is in now.
>>"Watch: one day that station is going to cave in or implode onto itself and they'll be scratching their heads saying, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......"<<
We shall wait & see only time will tell........
More likely, the city inspectors checking out the Municipal Building will go down there one day, say, "What the.... How in the..... Son of a......" and put a maze of column supports and scaffolding up in the station, if not shut the whole thing down entirely, cutting off J/M/Z service south of Canal while repairs are made to make sure the Muni doesn't suddenly go bye-bye (and given what's already happened in Lower Manhattan and the building's proximity to police headquarters, could you imagine the panic if somthing like that happened because the MTA let the station's infrastructure turn into a shambles...)
The configration of the Centre St. line is obsolete. It doesn't see the intense traffic it did prior to the 1960's. The need for a terminal at Canal St. hasn't exited for 34 years. Why not simplify the wole thing?
Chambers St. will not be reconfigured. It cannot due to grade differences at the southern end.
Chambers St. will not be reconfigured. It cannot due to grade differences at the southern end.
Sure, *I* can reconfigure it!
: )
I'll 1) Close Brooklyn Bridge to cars.
2) I'll put LRVs on the Bridge to terminate in Chambers,
3) ...
To me, thw hole realignment thing only puts the Nassau line into a deeper hole and I don't see the sense in doing this.
Although, I never like seeing something "downgraded", I can understand it in the case of the Nassau line, especially at Bowery. Maybe they will be able to maintain the stations better if they only have to do one platform at Bowery and Canal. It will look less rundown and depressing with the abandoned tracks gone. I see an improvement of aesthetics when this project is done. All the abanoned and unused areas adds to the depressing feel the Nassau line has. By abandoning the two platforms, it leaves less unused infastructure in plain view.
Fulton and Broad are already great looking stations (and Fulton was a real pit before). The Canal platform that will remain is also nicely restored. Bowery looks better than it did, but with a low use station like that, I'm sure what they did is all they will be doing for a while. They are working on Essex. i assume maybe a new tilejob will be done at Essex. I would also hope they put a wall up along the current Queens-Bound track there, making a nice tiled trackwall. They can even add the Retro looking tiles and mosaics like they did at Fulton and Broad. It would really improve the look of the station if there is a nice tiled wall there instead of the open look into the abandoned, garbage strewn trolley terminal. That would only leave Chambers as a disaster area on the Nassau Line.
What does concern me is that Queens-Bound platform at Canal Street is always crowded. In addition, the platforms are fairly narrow. I just hope that the Broad Street platform at Canal will be able to handle passengers waiting for trains in both directions. (At Bowery there is no problem).
I think they're going to use the uptown platform for the storage of equipment. If so, they don't need the center trackway, thus they want to fill it in for the additional space.
What I'm somewhat concerned about is the width of the downtown platform. That platform looks pretty narrow - will there be crowding problems?
Anyone have any idea on how to power an Image Replica HO R29?
I bought three of those cars at the Red Caboose in the redbird color scheme. One car was powered - I believe the power truck came from Bachmann's GE 44-ton switcher.
Information on using these power trucks can be found on the East Penn Traction Club site, www.eastpenn.org. Check the article HOliner.pdf, which discusses using this power truck for retrofitting an Electroliner.
Another source is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hotractionmodeling/. You have to become a member to join the group to view the messages and ask questions, but it should be worthwhile.
Also, check out Model SubTalk, linked to this site through Merchandise, Models, and Software.
Thank you George.
eBay #734944312
eBay #734944312 is:
FAST AND FURIOUS Awesome cast SIGNED POSTER
The correct auction number is 743944312. Thanks for pointing this out. I own a copy of this book myself in the same condition. It would be interesting to see how much it sells for just in case I should decide to unload mine. I'm figuring it sells for between $75-$100.
I have personally sold a copy of this book at a train show 2 years ago for $60, and know of another vendor at the KofP show last September who sold it for $70.
--Mark
Check out the NY1 link here:
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=26267
Just copy + paste. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make links, so don't get angry at me! :-)
I look at the $1.50 as an ADMISSION fee to the world's greatest subway and bus system, with its history, rolling stock, equipment, culture and social value.
So what is the deal with the "Fare"? Are they going to raise that too?
I'm glad you posted with your own opinion, but I have one gripe.
Why aren't more people posting to this? I'm sure this could spawn some good ole' Subtalk discussion.
The TWU has proposed some good ideas that might save money over many years, but not immediately. For example, you can't give buses signal priority citywide overnight.
As to in-house forces vs. contractors, if they are talking about construction (what else could it be -- what else do contractors do?), it depends on the economy. The TA was getting hit hard the past three years, because construction was hot and construction workers hard to get, but that's about to turn around in a big way. I'd expect low bids for the next couple of years. Of course, that must mean its time to cut the capital budget.
And in-house forces are not available to do more work, so you'd have to hire in any event. In house forces already do the track work. It might makes sense for some RR stuff, especially signals, given the collapse of the private industry. But then you are saving capital funds, not operating -- operating personnel already do all the maintenance.
There's an image on the website I'd like to use for a presentation -- it says from the collection of Joe Tesragose. How do I go about asking for permission -- if it is possible?
AEM7
I don't think Joe objects to non-commercial use of his images.
JT is a daily poster on alt.binaries.pictures.rails. You can get in touch with him there if you wish.
hey, thanks folks. i'll show it as from nycsubway.org contributed by joe :)
AEM7
This afternoon @ 2:24 PM I saw a rerouted R68 B train @ 168 Street heading to 207 Street on the A line. Was there delays on the A line around that time? If so could someone investigate this? Damn I wish I had my camera!
Did it have passengers? It could have been heading to the overhaul shops...
yes it was in passenger service.
Had they changed all the signs?
Peace,
ANDEE
no
No it was sporting its regular B-BPB,Bronx & 34 St-HS signs.
Did you ride the R68 B back to and from 207 St or did it go out of service afterward?
I didn't rode that train I just saw it & I have no idea if it went back into service @ 207 Street.
Unlikely, it must have been filling in for a delay in "A" or "C" service. 207 doesn't handle R68 MU's.
Man... I haven't seen one of those up there since the Q was sent to 207th st to replace the A SERVICE years ago....
Yeah... So he pushed the Wronk Button and didn't know his line-ups.
Betch *that* is embareassing!
Elias
No, then he would have turned at 168th.
The B was probably sent to 207th to fill in for a gap in A service.
If that created an unacceptable gap in Concourse local service, a D could have been sent local.
"If that created an unacceptable gap in Concourse local service, a D could have been sent local."
NOPE!!!!! @ 2:24 PM the B only runs to 145th St. There would be no gap in local concourse service.
Back to the issue at hand! If a B train was sent on the A line it was due to:
1) Incorrect punch
2) Gap in A/C service
3) Switch problem at 135th St
4) Blockage at 145th St.
5) The train was actually a school car train and not in passeger service.
Now - which do you think is the correct answer?
I think it was either 1 or 2.
Oh, you're right. I didn't catch the time, but Amin said it was signed for BPB, so I assumed it was rush hour. (B signage is usually correct, IME.)
My guess is 2, since otherwise the B could have turned at 168, but I have no way of knowing for sure.
(Thanks for the email, BTW.)
Looks like 1 or 2 but I'm leaning more toward #1. It is not #5 b/c the person who started this topic said there were passengers on the train.
A wrong punch would have the train turned at 168 St; school car would have no passengers; switch problems or blockage at 145 would have the train turned at 168 also. Therefore, it was a gap in A service.
the resulting gap in B service is filled by bringing the gap train, north of 145 into service early.
" It is not #5 b/c the person who started this topic said there were passengers on the train."
Apparently you've never seen a school car train. Trainees sitting everywhere. To the casual observer, they can look like passengers. In all honesty, I did not find out the correct answer today as we were a tad busy getting everything ready for the snow and the cold-weather plan.
To add on to what you said, they usually have vests on, and if there are people crowded up at the front cab it could be a school car train. On 75' school car trains, usually all the storm doors are unlocked, so you'll see two blue lights on the side of every car the length of the train. Right?
The B was sent to 207th Street to cover service because of a huge delay in the A and C service. An A train went BIE at Hoyt-Schermerhorn in Brooklyn, causing 25 to 30 minute delays.
The train probably ran light (meaning no passengers were on the train) back to 145th Street where it went back in passenger service, but on the upper level.
A man was critically injured last night when he apparently walked into the side of a moving train from the platform of the Dunn Loring-Merrifield Metro station in Fairfax County, authorities said.
The man, whose identity was being withheld pending notification of relatives, was taken to Inova Fairfax Hospital with what appeared to be a head injury, said Metro spokeswoman Cheryl Johnson. He was listed in critical condition last night, a hospital spokeswoman said. Trains were delayed for about 10 minutes after the 7:17 p.m. incident.
Metro officials asked witnesses to call 202-962-2121.
STUPID people! Just WHERE do people like these originate!?!?
Dunn Loring is a busy station... I can see this happening because often enough after passengers exit the train - if the platform is crowded some folks will walk along the platfrom next to the train and it's quite possible that this unfortunate person may have lost their balance and fell against the moving train. Now given the fact that WMATA train accelerate pretty quickly it could have easily hurled the man violently to the ground or even into a support column.
Just a possible scenario.
Wayne
At a barstool for several hours?
A man was critically injured last night when he apparently walked into the side of a moving train from the platform of the Dunn Loring-Merrifield Metro station in Fairfax County, authorities said.
How is he doing. I am interested in knowing.
- Charles Darwin
ROFLMAO
Hahahahaha....heh.
Definite candidate for the Darwins...
has this man spoke to his lawyer yet. i see a big bucks here
Oh god, I can hear the automated anouncements in a few years:
"Please Watch the moving train, please watch the moving train. Please keep all hands and fingers away from the train until the train has come to a complete stop, Doors now opening, please watch the opening doors, doors are now opening, please make room on the platform for the exiting passengers, please allow the passengers to exit first, please step aside if on the train and not exiting, please do not crowd the doors. Doors are now closing, please watch the doors, please keep all hands, fingers and other body parts away from the doors until they are fully closed, the doors are now opening, please watch the opening doors, please do not hold the doors, doors are now closing, doors are now opening, please do not hold the doors, doors are now closing, remember to check that all small children have their hands and arms away from the closing doors. Doors are now closed, please do not lean on the doors. Please watch the moving train, please do not lean on the doors, please watch the moving train, please do not attempt to touch the moving train." "The next station is..."
I'll take a mechanical bell anyday! :)
Have anybody have and/or seen the new Ad's on the MetroCards?
There's 2. One is "Why Run for the Train?" and the other one is the Zagat Survey. Have anybody got theese? If so what station was brought from
>>Have anybody have and/or seen the new Ad's on the MetroCards? <<
Both these cards are sold out of MVM's, where is anybody's guess. "Why run for the train" is one of these safety Metrocards. There should be a couple more eventually.
I was told that there are four Zagat Survey cards and also heard that there may be six ! Your best bet is to check the Metrocard readers. That's where I found mine.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's what I did. I check and fround 2 of the "Why Run For The Train" Ones but only took 1 since the other one was sort of dirty!
Sometimes I find the TransitChek MetroCards in there
>>That's what I did. I check and fround 2 of the "Why Run For The Train" Ones but only took 1 since the other one was sort of dirty!
Sometimes I find the TransitChek MetroCards in there<<
There you go, now you're learning !
A couple of years ago I was checking the reader at Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(9), I found an American Express John MacEnroe Metrocard with a matching paper Metrocard holder. I swiped it and although it was expired, it was a single ride card that probably was given out at the US Open.
And if that doesn't top it, my friend who is a LIRR engineer usually checks the reader at Penn since he is a collector too. One day he was checking the readers at Penn Sta. (A)(C)(E)a couple of years ago and found an original blueback MTA "apple" Metrocard ! Probably someone swiped it and found it to be expired and discarded it not knowing it's value.
Keep checking them readers !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder why MetroCard ads hasn't been around so much like before in the past year. Anyway I heard about the Zagat ads & why run for the train ads but no, I haven't seen any yet.
I bought a "Why Run" last week at Herald Square, south BMT mezzanine, middle (of three) full-size MVM's. Haven't found the other yet.
I did try Monday to get a Why Run for the Train or the Zagat Survey ones at the Van Wyck Blvd Station buy getting a $4 Pay Per Ride MetroCard. And did I get it? NO! I only used that card on the Q17 2 Times and now have $1 Left.
When I go get a $60 Pay Per Ride MetroCard on thursday or friday I would hope to get the Zagat One or anouther Why Run for the train one.
Also I happin to have a LIRR Ticket/MetroCard in my collection and only have $1.50 Left and expires at the end of this month(The MetroCard Part) so I try the booth as well.
>>getting a $4 Pay Per Ride MetroCard. And did I get it? NO! I only used that card on the Q17 2 Times and now have $1 Left.<<
I'm doing the math but it makes no sense. A $4 pay per ride with $1 left ? The funpass is $4. Please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
He made the wrong selection by accident and got a $4 PPR card.
Is the private bus fare still only $1 in some areas? Perhaps he was planning on taking on of those.
CG
Well I had change to get rid of. And do not consider me nuts,I have seen strange amounts on MetroCard Before(Like $7,$14,ETC,ETC!)
I have a number of cards with 1.00 and .50 on them, plus one with .52 left.
52 CENTS!!!!????
Somebody must have put 2 1 Cent Coins into the MVM or to the token booth clerk and took it
No, it was probably the outcome of the 10% bonus.
Pay $18.20 for a new card. (Why $18.20? Don't ask me.) The 10% bonus brings that to $20.02. Use the card to pay 13 fares. It's left with a 52-cent balance.
Well I used that card only used it 2 Times on the Q17 in 1 Day so I did not need a 1 Day Unlimted. I just wanted to put $4 on it b/c I felt like it and I was not in need of a 1 Day Unlimted since I just used that card on the Q17 only. I could had put $3 or $4.50 on it but I wanted $4 on it.
I found a "Why run" and a Zagat-River this morning, both in the discard stack at 86th. I guess that doesn't help anyone else find them.
>>I found a "Why run" and a Zagat-River this morning, both in the discard stack at 86th. I guess that doesn't help anyone else find them.<<
WATCH OUT ! There should be either four of six Zagats out there. They have different restaurants reviewed, that's how you tell them apart. Otherwise, they look identical.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's why I identified the card I found as the Zagat-River. I'm still searching for the others.
>>That's why I identified the card I found as the Zagat-River. I'm still searching for the others.<<
Good luck bro !
Bill "Newkirk"
I've got a Zagat-Gramercy Tavern FunPass that I'm using today. I'd be happy to drop it in the mail to someone when I'm finished with it tonight. First person to e-mail me their address can have it.
CG
Claimed.
CG
I bought a "Zagat Surver - Gramercy Tavern" yesterday at the MVM in Grand Central -- just outside fare control for the Shuttle.
CG
I got the same one at 34th street last week
Here is the one I bought
--Brian
Sorry, I updated the scan. Click HERE for the image
--Brian
My personal opinion is that advertisers got fed up dealing with the TAs bs, hence, no ads on MCs. Not that anybody ever read them anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
A good possibility but you have to add the severe abuses regarding distribution that occurred in the past and have been discussed here a number of times.
That could be easily solved ... make the Station Agent/MVM Service person accountable for every card. The problem was the TA didn't care about how many cards existed until they were encoded with money on them. The second problem is that there are collectors out there that wanted to get 50 or 100 or every new card & they wanted them pristine. Well that's not a hobby, it's a business. This week I got one of the new cards from a driver & another friend thought of me while on a out-of-town business trip. I owe both of them something, THAT IS A HOBBY!
When QSC was doing retail sales I received the cards & had to account for every one ... no big deal they come in a series of numbers. Some times there's a break in the series, but it's documented. Once I had a problem with a miss feed at the warehouse (one card had printing but no value, the next had no printing but money). The cards come in sealed boxes ... if the seal is broken, send it back without receiving it.
OK, now the cards are out of the box in the booth, but they are still in order, just don't drop them. When you go off shift you log the last card sold. If the next person finds a card missing within the group he/she's selling that will be a problem ONCE, because someone will have to explain, i.e. if you treat the cards like money from the instant they arrive you either leave them alone or you'll be looking for a new job.
Enough old cards come in the booth to keep the collector happy.
Hi.
On Thursday I fround anouther "Why run for the Train?" at the Union Turnpike Subway Station MetroCard Reader and also fround there where 2 Zagat Survey Balthazar cards. and I happin to buy a $3 Pay Per Ride MetroCard and I got a "Why Run for the Train?" MetroCard
Since the worst subway car [which I didn't start] & worst subway line threads are popular and you guys seem to be having fun with it, lets bring in a 3rd installment of the worst... by seeing your opinions on the worst and best looking stations. Lets make it a top 5 best & worst since it would make more sense.
The worst:
Chambers St J,M,Z
Smith-9 St F,G
2 Avenue F
155 St B,D
86 St R
The best:
14 St/Union Sq 4,5,6
Broadway-Lafayette F,V,Grand shuttle
Utica Av A,C
3 Av/149 St 2,5
Woodhaven Blvd G,R,V
I know now it doesn't look to nice, but when all of the construction is done -- Times Square is gonna be NICE!
It would have been in my top 5 but it is not complete in the interior but its high in my list. You better believe that its going to look nice, well great!
The worst:
76st St.
I can't see it, it's too dark down there !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The worst station: 76th Street, because it gives me the heebe jeebies.
The best station: 81st St on the 8th Ave IND, because of the interesting art.
The worst:
1 - Chambers St J,M,Z - I love the station, but damn it's a pit.
2 - 86th/4th Ave - A disgrace with painted walls.
3 - 2nd Ave/Houston - The epidomy of depressing IND stations.
4 - Broadway/Crosstown - another run-down depressing IND station.
5 - Bowery/Nassau - Much better than it used to be but still a quite depressing station.
Honorable Mention - Smith/9th would have made the list, but they are working on the viaduct, and the view is one of the best in the system, so that keeps it off my sh*t list.
The Best:
1 - 33rd Street/Lexington - I love Contract One stations, and they did a class act at restoring it.
2 - 5th Avenue/Broadway Line - great restoration
3 - Union Square/Lexington - My favorite station in the system, very unique. Probably lacking on ornamentation, so that's why it's third instead of 1st.
4 - 36th Street/4th Ave - great restoration
5 - 18th Street/7th-Bway Line - I like the way they renovated it (along with most of the stations on the lower end of the line).
Honorable Mention - 81st/CPW - another great renovation
Honorable mentions for the worst looking stations on the G at B'way, 4 Av line stations: 9 St, Prospect Av, 25 St, 45 St, 53 St, Bay Ridge Av & 77 St, damn I hate those refridgerator tiles, they make the stations look so dull, plain & ugly!
Hoorable mentions for good looking stations is restoring original tiles to all B'way local stations south of 34 St to Canal St, the in house renovations on some 1/9 stations south of 34 St and 81 St on the B & C, excellent job.
My favorite is New Utrecht on the Sea Beach. You enter a curving mini-tunnel that you see the end of, then arrive at the station only to look up and see the West End above. Always liked seeing that and still do.
But if we go back to yesteryear my favorite was Prospect Park Station on the then #1 Brighton Express. That would take you up the steps and two blocks to Ebbets Field where my childhood idols used to play.
Strange for someone who now despises the Dodgers.
My favorite is New Utrecht on the Sea Beach. You enter a curving mini-tunnel that you can't see the end of, then arrive at the station only to look up and see the West End above. Always liked seeing that and still do.
But if we go back to yesteryear my favorite was Prospect Park Station on the then #1 Brighton Express. That would take you up the steps and two blocks to Ebbets Field where my childhood idols used to play.
Strange for someone who now despises the Dodgers.
The worst:
1 - Chambers St/Nassau - I love the station, but damn it's a pit.
2 - 86th/4th Ave - A disgrace with painted walls.
3 - 2nd Ave/Houston - The epidomy of depressing IND stations.
4 - Broadway/Crosstown - another run-down depressing IND station.
5 - Bowery/Nassau - Much better than it used to be but still a quite depressing station.
Honorable Mention - Smith/9th would have made the list, as it needs help, but they are working on the viaduct, and the view from the station is one of the best in the system, so that keeps it off my sh*t list.
The Best:
1 - 33rd Street/Lexington - I love Contract One stations, and they did a class act at restoring it.
2 - 5th Avenue/Broadway Line - great restoration
3 - Union Square/Lexington - My favorite station in the system, very unique. Probably lacking on ornamentation, so that's why it's third instead of 1st.
4 - 36th Street/4th Ave - great restoration
5 - 18th Street/7th-Bway Line - I like the way they renovated it (along with most of the stations on the lower end of the line).
Honorable Mention - 81st/CPW - another great renovation
How is smith & 9th the worst, the view is fantastic!!
Which view, the one seeing the highway & other sights or the condition of the station ;-). It may have nice views but if you think its interesting, think again. Take a visit to Smith-9 St, roam through the station VERY carefully & you'll see why it is ranked as the 5 worst stations in my view. Its just depressing.
The ultimate pit - Ninth Ave / Lower Level - Culver Line.....As seen on the MOD Steeplecab Trip.......Great set for a horror movie....Wonder why they re-tiled the back of the stairway if they were going to close it down ??????
Actually, I didn't think 9th Ave lower was in such bad shape. Chambers Street is much worse, and that's OPEN!
--Mark
You think 9 Av LL is a horror show, Chambers could really be a set for a horror movie. The film could be filmed at all the abandoned stations and the real horror comes when we find out 76 St is "mysteriously not there", we experience nervous breakdowns and go at one another. It could be called "Subway Caverns". Pretty cool ;-)
Hmm, let's see, the worst stations. Here's what I think.
1. Chambers St. (J)/(M)(this is one horrible lookling station)
2. Bedford Av. (L) (easily the worst looking station on the L, the walls are so corroded)
3. 86 St. (R) (another ugly looking station)
4. Lex. Av.-51 ST (E)/(V)(Its an insult, when you compare it to the niceness of the 51 St. station of the (6) )
5. Bowery (J)/(M)
Didn't make the list:
If I could choose another, it would had been Court St.(M)/(N)/(R).
Now for the best.
1. Lorimer St. (L) (very nice, same goes to the Metro. Av. station of the G line. Too bad Bedford Av. never got any attention)
2. Flushing/Halsey/Gates/etc. (basicly all the stations on Broadway that got their new and improved look, but if I had to choose a favorite, it would be Flushing Av.)
3. Jamaica Center (E)/(J) (great, and unique looking station)
Since you did your top 5 already, go on and comment on nasty looking or good looking stations that's what the thread is all about. Court St is odd with the tube shape but not as bad as Lawrence St, it is so damn narrow, very hot and dingy. Lex/53 is just TACKY and awful with no tile & painted walls that the paint looks so cheap.
Lawrence Street is bad. I believe it was an "afterthought" station, built right into the tunnel, that's why it's so dingy, and no tiles.
There is a full blown tile job in the mezzanine, with the same colors as Grand on the "L", but with the same "ladder" pattern as found at Court and Whitehall. It includes borders, short frieze and directional tablets too. I am not sure why they did not tile the trackside walls.
wayne
I know it was a afterthought and it came out that way & the stairs are WORST than 72 St on the 1,2,3 & 9. Definitely a thumbs down, the 4 Av local statons are bad too[mainly due to the refidgerator tiles], especially 9 St, its dingy, full of storage/garbage, the fare control area and tiles is tacky & the passageway to 4 Av on the F is a workout and dark. The 2nd worst station on 4 Av and 86 St takes the award for ugliest on 4 Av, come on brown AND green; hideous 8-O!.
Hmm, let's see, the worst stations. Here's what I think.
1. Chambers St. (J)/(M)(this is one horrible lookling station)
2. Bedford Av. (L) (easily the worst looking station on the L, the walls are so corroded)
3. 86 St. (R) (another ugly looking station)
4. Lex. Av.-51 ST (E)/(V)(Its an insult, when you compare it to the niceness of the 51 St. station of the (6) )
5. Bowery (J)/(M)
Didn't make the list:
If I could choose another, it would had been Court St.(M)/(N)/(R).
Now for the best.
1. Lorimer St. (L) (very nice, same goes to the Metro. Av. station of the G line. Too bad Bedford Av. never got any attention)
2. Flushing/Halsey/Gates/etc. (basicly all the stations on Broadway that got their new and improved look, but if I had to choose a favorite, it would be Flushing Av.)
3. Jamaica Center (E)/(J) (great, and unique looking station)
4. Broad St. (J)/(M). (definitely the best, and only truly nice looking Manhattan station of the J/M/Z lines )
5. Bergen St. (F)/(G).
If I had another choice, it would be Queens Plaza, (N)/(7). Cool looking view.
What do you's think?
And #2 for my favorites is from the (J) and (M) lines. I forgot to put it on my previous post.
....Obviously spoken by a true Eastern Division Rider.
Sounds good to me. It's so subjective as to taste and what people like about the "best" looking station, or the renovations done (or not done) in stations. I guess we all agree of course that Chambers Street belongs on the "worst" condition list.
But if EVERY platform and mosaic was rebuilt and has more train lines running through, it would look like a gem but we have to live with it as a 'cellar'. Its on most people's worst list b/c its fallen to real despair, the exposed side platform brings it down and the station only serves ONE line 24 hours, the J. The Nassau line seems like its gonig to become a storage, garbage filled, dark line:the realignment, Chambers St, the future abandonment of 1 island platform/2 tracks at Canal St & Bowery and the exposed former trolley terminal, never ending work at Essex St.
Worst in condition but best in design.
191 on the 1/9 is similar, though less grand than its southerly neighbors.
Worst in condition but best in design
Very true. Chambers is one of the grandest stations in the system. I is one of my favorites. It would be an unbelievable station if it was in good condition.
Bedford Avenue station is an island platform. They are probably going to wait until a station rehab is in order before doing anything about the wall tile. As was done at other stations, they will probably do white tile panels over the existing stuff, and a hi-pressure steam cleaning of the frieze as was done at Union Square, followed by touch-up, repoint (where needed) and reglaze. The center of the frieze at Bedford, however, is a monotonous mix of three ugly shades of tan/parchment/beige. MAYBE they could get creative and paint random squares in the center some other color, like green, white, yellow or the like; they DO have enamel that works on ceramic tile (available at Pearl in Canal Street).
wayne
Ridgewood, go ahead and broaden your perspective on the stations in the whole subway system since you announced your top/worst 5. Bergen St is pretty neat and Queens Plaza on the N, W & 7 I believe has the best transfer in the whole system.
#1 and #3 onm your liost are being fixed. the E/V platfofm is beign renovated now abnd wiull have a full mezzanine, walla nd floor tile, etc.
Chambers on the J will be desaigned in the five year plan along with soem temporary remdiation work.
86 on the R si basically OK- just needs tile at platform level.
Please remember- it takes time and money to fix all stations. I have a candidate station (now being renovated) that is the IRT's version fo Chambers--rusting rebar is visible in places, wall tile is missing ands pieces of concrete missing, failing elevators,pouring in water etc. It is 191 on the 1/9.
As far as how they decide statiosn to fix-- station siae, passenger volume abd overall condition. Let's say you ahve twop statiosn needing work, # 1 has 10 passengers and was last patcheds 20 years ago while station2 has 10,000 passengers and was last patched 35 years ago, I'd go with #2. Anpother factor is structure work allowing for a line-by-line approach such as is being done from North of E180 to 241 on the 2 with structure and station renovation and is in the 5 year plan for the K from East of Broaday Jct to W of Cypress Hills (Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland, Norwood, and Crsceent)
Another Chambers station - the IRT one on the 1,2,3,9 - is in pretty poor shape too. Basically a nice design, but in serious need of cleaning and renovating.
It could use a little touch up but some stations really need some new wall tile like 7 and Church Aves on the F its developing rust and the tiles are falling off from the walls.
Right! WHile I don't have the official ranking criteria but I would imagine condition of tile (falling off) woudl be on the list.
The two stations mentioned are not in the 5 year plan.
I personally rate stations not on appearance but on convenience of getting in and out, or transfering.
Bad (maybe not worst):
- 6th Ave and 34th St IND. The easy ways in and out tend to be packed with people. The hard ways take forever.
- 23rd St PATH. Pass under the F and go back up to get to the PATH.
- Fulton St. complex. Hard to find the open entrances on a weekend. Because the J/M/Z takes up two levels, there's just no good way to get from east end to west end of the station (not that many people need to transfer from the 2/3 to the 4/5 there, but in the pouring rain it's nice, but very inconveneient, to stay dry by staying underground). IIRC there are some strange arrows that can lead you astray. Still, signage is much better than it was many years ago.
- 8th Ave. and 34th. Since the IND has so few local-only stops below 59th, often either the express or the local will do. You need good physical agility to position yourself so you can wait for the one that comes first.
Most improved:
- Union Square. Getting to/from the L is easier (wider stairs) than it used to be, and now there's an elevator too. The escalator to street level has been behaving very well lately. Peeves: they could use a few more turnstiles in the SE corner, and they made the SE stairs a few inches nearrower when they renovated.
- 8th Ave and 14th: access from the L has been improved with new, wider stairs. The elevator works, too.
Thats cool, whatever suits you best but I'm not only basing this on appearence but you got to admit, some stations are just BAD! I also look at things like ridership patterns, lighting & transfer points[or lack of].
Top five worst:
1) Chambers Street (J,M,Z); nothing even comes close
2) Broadway (G)
3) Van Alst-21st St (G)
4) Lexington-53rd St (E,V)
5) Bowery (J,M,Z)
Top five best:
1) 33rd Street (6)
2) Utica Avenue (A,C)
3) 149th St-3 Ave (2,5)
4) Jamaica-Van Wyck (E)
5) Astor Place (6)
wayne
>>>155 St B,D <<<
What on earth is wrong with this station? Other than the closed stairways?
Peace,
ANDEE
Its more than the anandoned stairways, its very dark & could sure use a little brightening up. They could have done a better job in blocking the staircases than using rippled metal sheets, there's something about it I just don't like.
Smith-9 St F,G
If anything, this is one of the best.
My worst stations:
Atlantic Av IRT-until they finish it, it's pretty rough. Passing under the trains, you can see the trucks for the cars! And you can get cellphone reception and sunlight thanks to the holes that were there!
Chambers St/Nassau st subway-It explains itself.
Bowery--low ridership seems to equal a crappy station.
Lawrence st./Metrotech-lack of wall tiles makes it seem like you're in a tunnel.
Fulton st West Side IRT-The wall mosaic is dirty, and the station needs overhaul. Wall 2/3 stop at least has a good floor
Best stations:
Lexington/63rd av- Good example of warm colors used effectively, much like:
Bowling Green-same as above. Also one stop from:
Wall/Lexington av subway- Nice colors in my opinion. Wooden Token booth too.
Archer av subway stations- They're nice examples of modern styled stations.
Bergen-Clean look. Example of how the 'bland' look of the IND can look nice.
Good Observations - just some comments:
My worst stations:
Atlantic Av IRT-until they finish it, it's pretty rough. Passing under the trains, you can see the trucks for the cars
Although it is a disaster area, I think under construction stations don't count as much as stations like Chambers where it is just left to rot. At least at Atlantic it's temporary.
Lawrence st./Metrotech-lack of wall tiles makes it seem like you're in a tunnel.
That's because it is in a tunnel! It's an "afterthought station", built right into the tunnel! Very true though, it belongs on this list.
Best stations:
Bergen-Clean look. Example of how the 'bland' look of the IND can look nice.
Yes, they did a great job at that station. Although most IND stations are a bit bland and cavernous, and even depressing, I do like the basic look at many of them. The renovation at Bergen is a great job at keeping the classic IND look, while softening up the cavernous, bland, depressing look many of the IND stations have. I'll give it an "A".
That's because it is in a tunnel! It's an "afterthought station", built right into the tunnel!
They could have added Tiles to it.
I agree there. It's beyond me as to why just because it was built in the tunnel, that they couldn't add tiles to Lawrence Street. The same goes for Grand Central on the 7. They just renovated the station, and still no tiles, and at such a high use station like that! It could be a very unique and interesting station if it were tiled.
Hey look at Atlantic Av on the Q, look how long it didn't have a completed tile wall. It makes the station look far better but already it is showing dirt and grime. Maybe Lawrence is too narrow for tiles ;-)
Part of the problem at Atlantic "Q" station's new wall is that they didn't buff off the excess grout!
wayne
And a funny thing is that b/c of the wires, one side is higher than the other. The lower side has the "A" mosaic while the other does not.
A new coffee table book written by Sandra Forty is in the stores. In the disaster section is a two page spread of a major transit accident on an elevated line.
The caption indicates that it was New York City, circa 1920. The scene would indicate this was a major derailment with one of the cars almost on its side. The problem is that the cars shown do not look anything like any New York City rapid transit cars that I have ever seen. The car numbers are unique in that they both start with a O. The car numbers were 0311 and 0934, with 0934 almost laying on its side.
I am really curious as to what city this really is. I saw the book at Sam's Club, but I would suspect it would be in the book stores as well. The picture is on pg 294-295.
If anyone would have any clue to this accident, please post!
Thats not New York, it is Boston.
There was a serious accident in 1928 at the curve at Harrison Ave. & Beach St. on the former Atlantic Ave. Elevated line. 0934 was one of the cars destroyed in the derailment.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks George! That was a quick response.
I guess I should have suspected Boston with that first digit zero business.
A new coffee table book written by Sandra Forty is in the stores. In the disaster section is a two page spread of a major transit accident on an elevated line.
The caption indicates that it was New York City, circa 1920. The scene would indicate this was a major derailment with one of the cars almost on its side. The problem is that the cars shown do not look anything like any New York City rapid transit cars that I have ever seen. The car numbers are unique in that they both start with a O. The car numbers were 0311 and 0934, with 0934 almost laying on its side.
I am really curious as to what city this really is. I saw the book at Sam's Club, but I would suspect it would be in the book stores as well. The picture is on pg 294-295.
If anyone might have any clue as to the correct city of this accident, please post!
That's has to be Boston. Till this day, their subway car numbers start with a zero.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's has to be Boston. Till this day, their subway car numbers start with a zero.
Bill "Newkirk"
So what's the big deal about the 76th Street station that NEVER existed.
What about the 9th Street PATH line! That *does* exist and you *can* get in there, if the PA cops (with their lack of humor) do not get you first.
I'll bet you there is something to see in there!
Elias
So what's the big deal about the 76th Street station that NEVER existed.
What about the 9th Street PATH line! That *does* exist and you *can* get in there, if the PA cops (with their lack of humor) do not get you first.
I'll bet you there is something to see in there!
It indeed exists. Of course, it's something like 20 feet long, but as my elementary school teachers used to say, it's the quality, not the quantity.
Of course, it's something like 20 feet long, but as my elementary school teachers used to say, it's the quality, not the quantity.
Actually, I believe it is about 200' long, and it has the original tunnel boring machine parked on it.
Or so I have been told.
Elias
>>Actually, I believe it is about 200' long, and it has the original tunnel boring machine parked on it. Or so I have been told.<<
Did they have tunnel boring machines back then ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The H&M/PATH tunnels were mostly done in silt, not bored through rock. Large portions of the ring erecting machine are in the Astor Place extension, not a tunnel boring machine. It looks like this:
that's awesome! Thanks for the info and the photo.
Terry, Great photo, thanks for sharing !
You'll be able to see that and much more at the upcoming museum exhibition. I don't want to spoil the surprise of seeing what is there, but I will say that everyone will be amazed by the show. There will be original blueprints, documents, and photos from the start of work in 1874 up to the present time. You can see the announcement that was posted here.
If 20 foot passageways are to be considered "tunnels," we have a whole new ballgame here. I guess the Winfield Spur turnoffs west of the 63rd Drive station on the Queens Blvd IND are also "tunnels."
There's a word for all of 'em : BELLMOUTH.
A tunnel that almost was.
wayne
Speaking of Bellmouths, How long is it on the IND Queensboro line north of Roosevelt Ave?
>>There's a word for all of 'em : BELLMOUTH.
A tunnel that almost was.<<
Did you ever hear of the term "tunnel pocket", also meaning "bellmouth"?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is the tunnel you can see when you pull out of the 9th Av PATH station going "railroad north"? It is filled with equipment...at least from what I can see from the train. And it looks like it goes on for a bit, around a curve.
--Brian
That's the one. It runs for about 200', as Elias has said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-China-Maglev-Train.html
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-China-Maglev-Train.html
OK, so nobody liked my idea of running 5 car trains on the 1&9 so everyone can get off at South Ferry. Here's another idea. Just plaster South Ferry signs all along the Northbound Rector Street Platform. The tourists who are stuck in the tunnel at South Ferry will think they just stopped for a signal because the next time the doors open it will say South Ferry. Up on the street have signs with arrows to the Liberty Ferry, the Staten Island Ferry, and Battery Park, and nobody would be the wiser. As far as regular commuters are concerned, they know to be in the first five cars. And the regular commuters who take the train one stop from the ferry to Rector would know damn well that there isn't two S.Ferries and that is really their stop. So only the tourists would be fooled and they would get a little more sightseeing and exercize.
Problem solved!!!
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have signs to Battery Park and the Statue of Liberty ferries at Rector St. It's only a marginally longer walk from the back end of the uptown Rector St platform to Castle Clinton than from South Ferry station. Assuming tourists who miss South Ferry will get off at Rector St in an attempt to cross over to the downtown side to get to South Ferry again (do they do this?), why not let them know they can just walk?
[" Assuming tourists who miss South Ferry will get off at Rector St in an attempt to cross over to the downtown side to get to South Ferry again (do they do this?), why not let them know they can just walk?"]
OK, for the people that do get off at Rector and cross over to try again:
Put up signs telling them to stay in the LAST four cars so they keep on doing it over and over. This way we can get the Kingston Trio to compose a NY version of Charlie of the MTA!!
It's too bad my aunt can't remember the vintage of that train she took to the Battery in 1959. She went around the loop a couple of times before a conductor finally explained that you have to be in the first five cars to get off at South Ferry, etc. Does anyone know if conductors made some sort of announcement to that effect back then on R units? Were mainline Lexington Ave. trains still using the inner loop in 1959? IIRC the R-17s were initially assigned to the 6 while the R-21s went to 7th Ave. What about the R-22s?
Did mainline Lex trains ever go to S Ferry. I thought it was always the Bowling Green Shuttle.
Mainline Lexington trains went to South Ferry except weekdays normal hours and Saturday mornings. They were (6)'s at night and (5)'s on evenings and weekends. They switched to the outer platform, enabling a transfer to the (1), and then switched back. The shuttle ran weekdays and Saturday mornings and used the inner platform (no transfer). I have never, EVER, seen a map which showed this distinction. South Ferry service stopped somewhere in the 70's, I think.
Bob Sklar
Yes:
The #5 ran to SF on weekends and evenings. The #6 served the station at night. All Lexington Ave. trains used the outer loop until the R types took over. Since these new cars couldn't just open their middle doors (necessary for trains on the inner loop) without being modified mechanically, thru 5/6 trains shared the outer loop with the #1. Only the shuttle used the inner loop.
AFAIK there were certain Lo-Vs which could selectively open only their center doors. Of course, Hi-Vs with manual end doors could do so as well. These cars, if they were assigned to mainline Lex routes, could have platformed at the inner loop.
Which they did, until the R17's showed up.
You want to get them more confused?? If its your first time in NYC, especially in Lower Manhattan, I don't really think they want to do a lot of walking LOOKING to find South Ferry. Isn't Rector a no free crossover station on the 1/9 if so, then they go to Chambers and do it all over again.
You want to get them more confused?? If its your first time in NYC, especially in Lower Manhattan, I don't really think they want to do a lot of walking LOOKING to find South Ferry.
Well, no, but even native NYers get confused in Lower Manhattan. =) But seriously, you walk on one street for like 2 blocks and you're in Battery Park. You can see the trees from the Rector St exits. As long as you direct people in the right direction leaving the station, they just have to walk straight to get there. For Lower Manhattan, it's really easy.
Isn't Rector a no free crossover station on the 1/9 if so, then they go to Chambers and do it all over again.
That is correct, but people don't know this until after they've gotten off at Rector St. Since they're hanging around the station anyway, why not let them know they don't have to wait for another train to get to Chambers St to cross over to get another train to get back to South Ferry ... it's faster just to walk.
Here's a better idea:
Put up a sign at Rector indicating that if you can see the sign, you can't get off at South Ferry. Put up signs on the tunnel walls informing passengers in the cars that the train is in the station, but they need to move forward X cars.
-Hank
But who's to say it's really a problem? Tourists are meant to be confused! It's just part of the fun of being in an unfamiliar place :o)
Bravo, Jeffrey!
The solution doesn't sound bad but STILL there will be people who will get confused; the BEST sloution is to make SF a 10 car station, how about that!
Here's the ultimate solution, and it doesn't cost a lot.
CLOSE SOUTH FERRY STATION.
No stop at South Ferry any more, no gap fillers, no confused tourists, and no megabucks need to be spent for a 10 car loop station.
Makes as much sense as every other solution posted.
The problem here is, of course, what to do with the hordes of SI ferry riders who will come after you with pitchforks and torches when you suggest a largely unnecessary service change that would deprive them of their most convenient subway access.
Dan
I assume your "answer" is sarcastic. But you know what, it may be better than spending megamoney on "straightening" the station to fit 10 cars, and in the process, slowing the line down.
I have a wild idea for South Ferry.......How about the status quo......leave it alone! That's as a good an idea as any.
Again: why do straightening and realigning have anything to do with each other?
Leave the station where it is and dig out a platform extension. If we could dig out two ten-car platforms at 59th on the East Side express, we can dig out a single five-car extension at South Ferry. Keep the loop, because any other design implemented would likely have a lower turning capacity, and the A Division can't afford capacity reductions.
Whay can't the 1 train make a double stop at SF, 5 cars each time, like Metro-North occasionally does at short platforms? Let out the first 5 cars as usual, then the T/O advances the train to a marker in the tunnel results in the last five cars being on the platform. Then the C/R opens the last 5 cars from his position at the middle of the train.
Double stops add to the time it takes to get a train through there, thereby reducing the amount of trains that can get through per hour.
Is this five-cars-open, five-car-locked REALLY that much of a problem?
I mean, how many people each day use South ferry station as their destination and get off successfully -- versus how many did not listen to announcements, etc., and go back north?
Should be easy enough to stand on the platform for a few hours on a random day and see how many people are banging on the locked doors as the train pulls out. Remember, this thread started when Todd Glickman reported seeing a bunch of tourists doing just that.
Are all Montauk/Patchogue Train run thur Hickville and Bethpage or they will just run express on the Babylon Branch?
most go on the montauk branch which goes over the entire babylon branch. the ones that go via the mainline (Hollis, Queens Village) they run mostly during rush hours or whenever they are sent that direction. the way you can tell if it is going that way is, if you are at jamaica and you hear that it is stopping at "Mineola and Babylon". if Babylon is the next stop from jamaica, Odds are its going over the south shore next to laurelton, Rosedale, Valley stream, etc.
The Hicksville-Babylon route was useful when I lived in Levittown, and when I lived in Babylon and my parents still lived in Levittown. Or at least the route would have been useful if it ran a lot more frequently, and if you could find out the information directly from a single timetable. As it is, you have to do some detective work with the Port Jefferson and Montauk Branch timetables. I don't think that even the timetables on the MTA website show that service directly.
:-) Andrew
Well whatdya know, they have it now!
:-) Andrew
...and I just picked up a printed Montauk line timetable from Penn Station, and whatdya know! It now has Hicksville on it!
Now that it's completely useless to me, of course!
:-D Andrew
Well it be useful to me if Hicksville is my home station and if someone wanted to go east.
So the Hicksville-Babylon route is not being used a lot?
Only a few trains per day.
:-) Andrew
Actually most are routed through the Babylon Branch.
Sure looks it to me:
Looks like GE was advertizing on the competition's cars at one point. Wonder how much that spot ran for, prime location, right between the front door and the cab. Letseee, that picture was taken in 1981, perhaps a Graffiti artist who was finding that the entire 70s spent painting murals on subway cars don't put food on the table or paint cans in the hand, so he decided to get with the "Me" Generation and sell himself out as a freelance billboard maker. I'm guessing he's in marketing now, probably gots hisself his own company on times square or somewhere!
Betcha it says "Westinghouse", or maybe "Adtranz" (psychic rich graffiti artist turned corporate bigwig?) further back.
That is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
I guess you must have a lot of time on your hands to come up with something like that.
What station is that?
Newkirk Image's 2003 calendar reviewed.
Paul Matus rocks !! Thanx !
Bill "Newkirk"
Another one for the books.... Welcome 6916-20 and 7086-90, in service as of today, 12/4/02. It's on the 5 getting ready for the PM Rush.
-Stef
Why not? Lets face it, the 2nd Avenue subway will not be built anytime soon and east side mass transit is a disaster. The bus line that runs along 2nd Avenue is not the answer because buses have to share the traffic lanes with other vehicular traffic.
Has there ever been a proposal for some kind of light rail service on 2nd Avenue? Light rail cars, 21st century trolleys, really, could run along dedicated portions of the roadway on 2nd Avenue and make the same stops that a 2nd Avenue subway line would have made. It could be built for a fraction of the cost of the 2nd Avenue line and would definitely have a positive impact on the congestion on the Lex because it would give east side residents an alternative to walking to the Lex.
Why?
with the butcher job they did on the newark subway, I really wouldn't want to see any sort of light rail around town.
Light rail is not the answer for busy manhattan streets.
first it will take away parking on 2nd avenue which would not be popular with shop keepers and residents.
second. It would require people in the subway to emerge to the streets
thrird it will block off two lanes of traffic which would make getting around in manhattan that more difficult
fourth it would be only marginally faster then buses. A much better idea is to inforce the bus lanes. and possible look into using bus rapid transit which coordinated the traffic lights with bus schedules and allows busses to delay lights from turning red if the bus is nearing the intersection
Bus lane enforcement can be done utilizing digital camera's on hte fron tof buses to take pictures of cars illegally in bus lanes.
Sounds like a sensible low-cost option.
Local 100 has preposed this as a way to save money by reducing delays and fuel costs
In LA they call the service metro rapid
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/projects/losangeles.html
Bus Rapid Transit only works if 1,traffic is light or prevented from sharing lanes, 2 volumes are much smaller than 2nd Ave. Having lived in Manhattan, and having recently sampled the Wilshire (LA) Red Bus , the latter is good, BUT Wilshire at 4PM on a Friday is not very clogged with traffic. You would have to insist on a dedicated lne as well as signal preempts, AND run buses so close together the labor costs wuld pay for station agents in a subway. This is really dismaying to see people try to disunderstand over a century of experience because the oil/auto crooks have a hammerlock on funding. The NECCESSITY of grade separated ROW was demostrated begining in October 1904. The mistakes of the last half century notwithstanding, rail transit IS BETTER.
(A much better idea is to inforce the bus lanes. and possible look into using bus rapid transit which coordinated the traffic lights with bus schedules and allows busses to delay lights from turning red if the bus is nearing the intersection)
Forget it. If it is to take the place of the 2nd Avenue, there will be so many buses that one will always be nearing the intersection. The problem with light rail is the same as the problem with buses -- intersections. Not a problem in less congested places, but next to worthless in Manhattan.
There are two locations I think BRT should be implemented. One is Staten Island, which is not dense enough for rail but whose bus service should be greatly improved. The second is "crosstown" routes, which also do not attract enough passengers for rail. I'd like to see the M60 converted to BRT with more frequent service, less frequent stops, and service extended on to Flushing then down to Jamaica. If we aren't going to do the full Airtrain, or the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, we should at least do that.
IMHO, a very effective way to speed up bus service, would be POP system and multiple doors. Especially on M15 limited, the dwell time is probably the main cause for delays.
Arti
"the dwell time is probably the main cause for delays."
has bus shelter where riders pay thier fare in the structure ever been concidered for busy intersections. Riders would swipe thier metrocards go through a heet. These structures would need to be closed during non peek hours to avoid becoming a homeless shelter.
I once timed the dwell time at 34th street at 4 and half minutes one day/ I still don't understand why someone would take a bus north south in manhattan unless they are handicap and unable get down to the train platform. The MTA should focus its effors on making every station ADA compatible in manhattan and eliminate most redundent bus routes
buses are useful for many trips. It is occasionally faster for short hops than walking down a flight or two, swiping a gate and then walking further down plus reversing the process at the other end. While the dwell you cite is long, it is not uncommon I suspect.
BTW, buses are FAR preferable during 'heat waves' as waiting at street level is more pleasant than underground in the saunas.
Buses do have an advantage at times. But does the advantage justify the additinal cost of operating the service when adequete alternatives exits
During heat waves I have taken buses for short distances where staying cool takes preference to time.
Larry, I doubt that there is enough track capacity let alone fleet, even assuming 30TPH everywhere to absorb bus ridership. The mix of both is highly useful particularly when schleing groceries, or other 'freight'. And we both will be buried before every station is ADA accessible. All that said, we still need the Second Ave Sub, IMHO--and preferably the genuine four track local/express version with the local probably detailed to cover Tompkins Sq Pk and south through the Lower East Side/East Village.
It's wider.
I'm in favor of priority schemes for buses and other methods of speeding up transport, but at present the term "Bus Rapid Transit" is an oxymoron trading of the positive image of rapid transit.
Likewise NYS DOT is trying to obscure its attempt to cover LI with HOV lines by promising RCVs--"Rapid Commute Vehicles"--i.e., buses.
One of the BRT catchlines is "think rail, build bus." Yeah, think steak, eat hamburger.
I agree that bus rpid transit is not a great idea on north south routes in manhattan.
BRT should be evaluated and implimented on lines that make sense. With a system as large as NYCT there will be no one soultion tht works well everywhere. It seems that TA management is looking for such solutions. One good example is automated bus tracking and diapatching which faild because of large building in Manhattan. This automated system could be implimented only at depots where possible. Even if only half the depots could utilize the system it would still be a larger deployment then most other mass transit operations around the country
I can sum it in one word (5 letters actually) NIMBY.
Unless you give LRVs pre-emtpive rights at most intersections, create boarding platforms and shelters, and spend years building reserved tracks and overhead wires, this won't fly. It will also require taking away one parking lane to provide a contra flow LRV lane for northbound vehicles, presumably on the east curb.
Limited stop buses using exclusive, enforced lanes, and articulated buses, will provide the same service at a fraction of the cost. Although I'm a light rail fan, Manhattan avenues are not the place for light rail. Rail transit only works in Manhattan if it is underground or overhead.
Whether it's LRT or BRT, this much is clear:
ANY measure that takes ANY curb space, moving lanes, or signal time away from private autos will NOT be politically tenable. The community boards won't support it, and DOT (the Department Opposed to Transit) won't implement it.
You're probably right.
And that's pretty sad, given how few New Yorkers (especially Manhattanites) own cars and how many more people ride the M15, even in its current form, than drive or take cabs down 2nd Avenue.
Let's say (I'm making up a number here) 75% of the people traveling on 2nd Avenue are on buses. Then the DOT has no business objecting until the bus lanes take up more than 75% of the width of the avenue.
Then again, I'm a hardliner: I also think that, when train service is suspended over the Williamsburg Bridge (usually due to road work on one of the adjacent roadways), two of the remaining bridge roadways should be set aside for shuttle buses only. It's bad enough that subway passengers have to transfer to and from the bus; they shouldn't also have to sit in a traffic jam. Motorists who don't like the resulting traffic can park the car and get on the bus.
"Let's say (I'm making up a number here) 75% of the people traveling on 2nd Avenue are on buses."
I'm sorry to say you are making up the number. Each lane can handle maybe a vehicle per 3 seconds (a vehicle per 1.5 seconds is maximum density, but all sorts of things prevent maximum density). With 30 seconds red light and 60 green and 3 usable lanes, that's 60 vehicles per 90 seconds, or 40 per minute, or probably 50 people per minute in private vehicles.
There's one bus every 2.5 minutes. With the severe bunching, the first bus is packed and the third is empty, so say 40 passengers per bus maximum, or 16 people per minute in the buses.
I question your figures.
There aren't three usable lanes, thanks to double parkers. There are two.
During rush hour, traffic moves very slowly. There's no way 20 vehicles per lane pass a point of observation each green phase.
If buses run at a 2.5-minute headway, that's not bunching. After accusing me of making a number (which I readily admitted from the start!), you make up the number 40 and declare it a maximum. In fact, the major north-south Manhattan bus routes seem to have an average passenger count of about 40 during rush hour, some a bit lower and others a bit higher.
I have the weekday ridership stats from 1996. (I believe bus ridership has increased since.) During the peak hour in the morning rush, 2nd Avenue had 1654 bus passengers, Lex had 1198, 5th had 2181, and Broadway had 1520.
"I question your figures."
And rightly so. I've overstated the anti-bus lane case. I took a quick jaunt over to 2nd Ave. and counted 32 vehicles in one green light phase and 28 in another, which is half of the 60 I estimated.
Note however that rush hour is not the applicable comparison, since the value of one lane on 2nd Ave for local commerce applies all day long, not just in rush hour. So I still think 40 passengers per bus is reasonable.
But now we're more nearly half bus passengers and half everybody else, which certainly justifies making one lane of 2nd Ave (and also 1 lane of 1st Ave) a dedicated busway. You still have the dwell time problem, but there are pre-pay solutions for that. You also have the cross-traffic problem, which can't easily be solved.
Thanks.
The appropriate comparison is whatever time of day the loss of a lane or two would hamper traffic flow. That means rush hour, predominantly.
One lane isn't enough. If it isn't physically divided from the rest of the avenue, other traffic will use it. If it is, a stalled bus will close the bus lane entirely. Two lanes.
Many people in cars could choose to take the bus if they felt like it. There isn't room for many more cars. There is room for a lot more buses. Freeing buses from traffic jams gives drivers a big incentive to take the bus, where they can be better accomodated.
How about subway-surface cars, that run underground in Midtown, and exit the tunnel to run on street in outlying areas?
This system is used in Boston (Green Line) & Philadephia (Subway-Suface route 10, 11, 13, 34, & 36).
And also in scores of cities elsewhere in the world, especially Germany.
How about subway-surface cars, that run underground in Midtown, and exit the tunnel to run on street in outlying areas?
Can you run a 10 car train on the surface of a street?
This system is used in Boston (Green Line) & Philadephia (Subway-Suface route 10, 11, 13, 34, & 36).
Two systems that really cannot compare with NYCT.
My aplogies if I haven't replied to messages since last Friday. I've had lots of internet problems since then, but they are fixed now (hopefully). -Nick
I just got this alert from the Downtown Alliance:
It is anticipated that there will be residual delays in service on the Lexington Avenue IRT in Manhattan due to a person under the #4 Train at West 176th Street and Jerome Avenue in the Bronx.
Don't you mean ON 176st and Jerome Ave.
Police report that the 20 Y/O woman jumped & killed herself after stabbing her baby to death. Sad, sick story !!!!!!!!
Police report that the 20 Y/O woman jumped & killed herself after stabbing her baby to death. Sad, sick story !!!!!!!!
Considering what it would have cost the taxpayers to keep her in Bedford Hills or Pilgrim State for the next 20+ years, I'd say she did everyone a favor.
>>Considering what it would have cost the taxpayers to keep her in Bedford Hills or Pilgrim State for the next 20+ years, I'd say she did everyone a favor.<<
Actually wat she did warrented the death sentence. And lethal injection makes 20 years of Pilgrim State look like buying food from McDonalds.
I boarded a NB 5 at 42 around 4:00. Even though it was a 5, the C/R made good announcements and kept us updated. Apparently, 4 trains were turning at 149-GC. This created an awful jam -- we crept all the way from 86 to 125, even though service had been resumed by the time we got to 103.
While stopped at 138, I noticed something unusual. There was a 4 train on the middle track, but it was moving south! In the afternoon rush that track is usually used by NB 4 trains, and given the then-recent restoration of service north of 149 and backlog south of 125, I'd expect that NB 4 trains would be using every track they could get their wheels on.
It gets worse - apparently (this according to Fox 5 News at 10) a woman who lives in the area stabbed her 11-month-old baby to death and then, despondent, jumped into the path of the #4 train at 176 Street station. Channel 7 is broadcasting the story as I speak.
wayne
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/amtr12042002.htm
Unless the contracted firm suddenly goes "whoops we encountered unexpected costs" and then begs for more money. I hope the MBTA gets the royal screw job out of this.
Huh? Please explain.
Amtrak decided NOT to bid on the contract, refusing to accept liability for its actions. So there are two qualified bidders now, and the MBTA will make its award soon so that there is at least a six-month transition period.
We MBTA commuters just want a safe, comfortable, reliable commute at a fair price. What else would you suggest?
Like they're not getting screwed now? The lazy conductors aren't collecting tickets (thus depriving the MBTA of income), service quality is start to slip, the MBTA - Amtrak relationship has become increasingly hostile, and frankly, even without Amtrak getting it's contract renewed, they're going to need a good shove out from the MBTA. The big worry is that Amtrak might intentionally screw up any transition to another contractor.
What are you talking about??
Amtrak is providing poor service as is.
Why don't you go up to Boston and have a heart attack on the commuter rail and see what happens??
If that incident could reflect at all upon Amtrak then it just showed that they are not willing to cave into a single indivuduals needs at the expence of everyone. Sides, most people agreed that the EMS options were probably about equal given location of hospitals and traffic and whatever the crew had done they guy wouldh ave been toast anyway.
I saw it yesterday. It was running express announcing the stops. Now if only they had the strip map for west side service and vice versa for the 2 when it's running up the east side.
Check out this photo!
--Brian
Hey look ! Jakarta has Redbirds !!]
Bill "Newkirk"
But apparently they must not be GOH Redbirds, since they still have the drop sash window instead of the tilt-in ones (or it could be where the MTA sent those GOHed Redbird R-30s, I guess...)
Some of the R-26/28/29's never got the tilt-in windows.
Speaking of which, 7925 was at Unionport this evening (I couldn't see what was coupled to it -- another train was in the way), signed as a 2! When was 7925 last used in 2 service?
This will be your typical train on the Lex Ave IRT during rush hour in 2010 (after completion of the East Side Access project)!!!!!
That's why I aspire to be a Reuters/AP world news photographer...
I guess I can't complain about the LIRR's cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons any more!
I hope the poor guy doesn't have to change at Jamaica!
6896-6900 are on the property as of tonight.
No signs of 7121-25. If they aren't on the property, they should arrive hopefully tomorrow night.
-Stef
Is 7111-2-3-4-5 in yet?
Just curious, 7111's a lucky number of mine. I remember the R21 of same number very well.
wayne
Those came last week.
-Stef
I noticed something very interesting today at 110th on the 1/9. On the downtown side, the some of the big mosaics say Cathedral Parkway. (note the period) and some only same Cathedral Parkway (without the period). Bizzare...
-Jeff
Is thje difference in spelling at one end of the station vs the middle? If so it couidl eb later when the station was lengthened? The station is int he early, early renovation stages.
nope, i think it was spelled exactly the same way, the only difference was the period.
-Jeff
Maybe I posted the reply wrong. I know the spelling is the same. Let's speak only about the periods (.)
Arte they towards the middle or towards one end or both ends and not int he middle?
The original tablets have the periods.
wayne
The $64,000 question is: why were they put there in the first place?
Has anyone ever solved the "Beverley"/"Beverly" Road thing?
I think someone didn't know how to spell "Beverly".
If it said "Pkwy" then a period, that wouldn't be so bad but with the whole entire word WITH a period it is strange but I wouldn't find that to be bizarre.
Earlier someone reported a 12-9 on the 4, I may have found out what that 12-9 was.
A woman in the Bronx killed her child before jumping in front of the train to escape going to prison. This is coming from Fox 5.
So THAT's why there was no 4 service to BPB!! STUPID SELFISH PIGS!!!!! Does she not realize how her actions screw over countless others!!!!!
What do PIGS have to do with all this?
A woman kills herself after she murdered her child and all you care about is that the #4 was delayed????!!!!
I don't condone what she did but FlyerLover - you need help badly.
Ya know, she's not the only one with problems.
>>>>Does she not realize how her actions screw over countless others!!!!!<<<
Yeah, I'm sure that's what she was thinking. Not. Get a grip!
Peace,
ANDEE
That comment was extremely unnecessary and you only care about a 4 train delay, that was a very childesh comment. So if it was delayed, find a alternative way to get where you need to go >:-o!
And you don't even have any concern for the poor baby that was murdered by her mother BEFORE she became a 12-9 on the #4 line. SELFISH
I totally agree. All these people want is to attract attention before they make 'The Final Leap.' Oh boo-hoo. She's not the only one with problems. I'm sure many people who take that delayed 4 have to feed starving families or get home from a hard day of work or school, full of pressure and unwanted stress.
If this woman wants to leave this world, she should've taken a pill and let the child live.
About two years ago, WMATA put their entire severe weather emergency plan on their website. Naturally, I saved it on my computer. It is complete with train frequencies, number of trains, where trains will turn back if necessary, where scrape and spray operations will take place, station closings, the "Early Out" release plan, and identified problems for buses as well as alternate routes. It is a HTML file which I will send to you if you request it by e-mailing me.
Were are the PCC that are in the Newest Images section from. What City I meen.
Robert
Were are the PCC that are in the Newest Images section from? What City I mean.
Kenosha, Wisconsin
A friend of mine rode an R62A 7 Express train towards Flushing this evening, and happened to glance into the motorman's cab between 74th-Broadway and 82nd-Jackson Heights. What he saw was a bit unusual, as the LCD speedometer displayed 67 MPH. I knew R62A's were fast, but didn't think they were that fast. Doesn't the R62A have a top speed of 55MPH? And also, is there a speed limit on the Flushing Express line? By the way, my friend said the train only went 67 MPH for a few seconds before gradually decelerating back down to the high-mid 50's before appraoching Junction Blvd.
The speedometrs on the redbirds and 62's at times give innaccurate readings. I'm sure the tech's on this board can explain what happens. The indicated speed will jump up and then gradually come back down to the accurate reading. Had a speedometer once read 35 while stopped in a station.
Played the BVE simulator on the 7 route on my computer and hit 104.
Yeah, I've done that too!
That's in km/h though.... Its not in mph
No subway train here in NYC could hit 67mph at the moment[well there may be a miniscule chance] plus most times the max in a R62A is 55-60mph but I don't think there is any straightaways that would allow 55 mph[unless you put them on the A in the straightaway portion, the reading of 67mph is a malfunction or a km/h reading[if that exists on a subway speedometer].
You can go 60+ in some of the east river tubes. The 63rd St tunnel and the 60th Street (The one used by the N/R)tunnel are good (And I think the only) examples. And it all depends how well the equipment operates
I am offering The Bullits Again For Download, Please Send Your Requests To Me By E-mail and I Will Send The File.
What are "The Bullits"?
>>> What are Bullits?
The font that has the subway line letters in approptiately colored circles.
and is copyrighted by the MTA.
Thank You
A misspelled word?
I have seen all the weather posts ont his site. Now I have created a yahoo group for weather-- Its is called Weather_talk.
* Your group information:
Group name: weather_talk
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weather_talk
Group email address: * Your group information:
Group name: weather_talk
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weather_talk
Group email address: weather_talk@yahoogroups.com
to subscribe use the e-mail adress: weather_talk-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Todd: IO am specifically inviting you to join!
Several months ago, the Bombardier R-142's were the whipping boy of this board. While undergoing teething pains with brake problems, pull aparts and other miscellaneous things, one could hear names like Bombajunk, BOMBbardier etc.
All is quiet, with Stef reporting new deliveries almost daily. What's your thoughts on the R-142 now ? Are any being withdrawn from service to have a Redbird fill in like months ago ? Any big problems now ?
Bill "Newkirk"
A quiet stretch does not make them good cars. The R-44/46's also went through some quiet times in the '70s but they were considered trouble overall.
I havent seen a redbird in a good while. At least on the #2
Weeel, it goes like this (Unka) Bill Newkirk Sir...
We's just a-waiting for them sparklin armadillos
to go knockin over their kibble... before we call
to action anotha' round of Bombajunk yard wars...
(Sorry folks, the cranberry juice talkin' tonite..)
:)
The day after Thanksgivng I rode the M-7's for the first time. As the 6:04PM Ronk out of Flat, I was impressed bythe interior appointments and quiteness. However, the ride wasn't as quiet as posted. Flat wheels !.......blame this on brake problems, wet leaves on rails or making panic stops at full speed while testing ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When I took my ride on em, about 2 weeks ago, it had squeaky wheels. Flat wheels as result?
I wonder if it's just wet spots or a little oil somehow on the rails.
Out here in California, we hear PLENTY of Metrolink Bombardier commuter cars with flat spots....and there aren't any trees out here!!! The flat spots all appeared the day after it rained last week (the first rain in a year....)
I just want to know for a friend dose the M-7 always do the 6:04pm from Flatbush to Ronk. That the line he rides to and from work. He would like to ride it one day.
Robert
>>I just want to know for a friend, does the M-7 always do the 6:04pm from Flatbush to Ronk. That the line he rides to and from work. He would like to ride it one day. <<
I last saw them at Bethpage on Tuesday evening about 6:55PM. I assume they run every weekday. Just tell your friend to take a chance and drop by at Flatbush. That's what I did.
Bill "Newkirk"
I posted this on BusTalk yesterday.
The Brothers & Sisters of Local 100, at the "private" bus depots, voted yesterday on whether or not to leave the Local. The majority voted to stay with Roger. The loosers have formed a group called "Opposite Directions" .... that's a joke :-(
" .... that's a joke :-( "
But then so is Roger.
If they had won it may have not been the best thing for them, now that they lost it will be even worse, i.e. Roger won't punish them for their disloyality .... NOT
What you fail to understand is that people really have no choice but to sign a petition Jennings puts in front of them and to shut up about it.
My seniorty is fixed over in the private companies the Union can change your seniority so once you elect someone to office they own you.
I won't agree with that.
The guys/gails who take a position in the TWU usually do so for a short time because the membership tends to loose faith in them or the person gets tired of the B.S. of the job (from the members as well as the company).
As an old Teamster, they tend to stay longer in the job, so there if you don't pick a good one, you can get very uphappy with the job they do.
It all has to do with how much you realy care about the job that's being done. I became a shop steward representing 50 people. I was a real pain in the ass to management as well as the union (I would ask why a lot ... I got involved in a action to stop a dues increase ... I made the company hire an afternoon & midnight shift for a group that supplied parts to A/C under maintance over night).
What has George done that has been so bad ?
Why hasn't someone run against him ?
At this depot I personally like the guys in that job now, that's saying a lot for someone in management.
I did not say George did anything bad. I am saying if you cross him and lose things might get unpleasant for you.
The fact that members in public voted Roger out but in private kept him in shows that people may fear George more than they hate Roger.
This election was the subject of an item in The Chief. The thrust of the article was that Sonny Hall, because of his dislike for Roger T. refused to intervene and delay the election. The feeling was that the election was diverting Rogers attention from the contract negotiations and Sonny Hall felt that sacraficing this contract to rid the TWU of Roger and his merry men was a fair trade-off, much tot he benifit of the union in the long run.
Here in southcentral PA near the Maryland line, we awoke to a covering of white. At 8:30, we already have about three inches of snow, and it is still falling.
Watch out New York City, it's coming your way!
Just started to stick at 7:30am here in Long Island City. Don't tell BMTMan, he'll just roll over and go back to sleep.
Just one last reminder- jopin weather_talk.
URL: weather_talk#yahoogroups.com
I am the moderator of this group which discusses all facets of weather. I already invited our resident weather guru, Todd.
Well this time it's more than a squall! :)
There is at least three inches in Hastings-on-Hudson where I'm from. I'll probably wind up with 5 to 6 inches when it is all said and done.
#3 West End Jeff
The roads have not been plowed very well here in DC. The trucks can't keep up with the snow!
But Metrorail is running well so far -- a friend of mine took it up to Rockville a little while ago without any delays.
Plus a few delays on MARC and VRE.
There were 10 minute delays on the Red Line around Fort Totten at about 8AM according to the news. My coworker took the Blue Line from Van Dorn and transferred to the Orange Line at Rosslyn and had some delays due to icing of the doors. The Orange Line my g/f rode from Ballston to Rosslyn took over 20 minutes due to the doors sticking as well.
I tried to go to work today, but after 30 minutes waiting for the 1C, gave up and decided that I had enough leave to take off today. I feel bad for those that really have to be at work today.
Be careful out there!
It's coming down nicely here in Manhattan.
A perfect day to test drive (ahem) my new digital camera!
Please pass some of those pics along to those of us that are less fortunate, will ya?
-Jeff
Jeff,
Would you please e-mail me explicit instructions on how to attach a pic to a post, please keep it simple if possible---our local "scenic railroad" just so happens to have old LIRR cars in their yard. Judging by the markings, I'd say they were taken out of use in the late 70's. Anyhow, I'd be more than happy to take some pics and post them.
Mark
You need to uopload your pics to a web server, sorry, I don't know any for the general public. After you upload your pics and you can view them in your browser, type this EXACTLY into your post:
<img src="http://www.url.com">
And your pic should come up.
Certainly. Give me an hour or so.
Here in the far reaches of Western Maryland---I'd say we have about 6 inches of snow and it's still coming down like crazy. They're calling for an ADDITIONAL 3-6 inches. Interstate 68 used to be a 2/3 lane paved highway, now it's a very wide-snow covered path. Thank goodness for 4-wheel drive
"Thank goodness for 4-wheel drive"
Just remember that 4WD vehicles don't have any better ability to stop than 2WD vehicles. You have to be able to stop for the 2WD guy in front of you who stops rapidly in a sideways skid.
You are sooooo right---where it really pays off is when you're going up hill...
Stop?? Just drive over top of him with your SUV.
Here in Ithaca, NY, the snow is coming down as very fine flakes. But it is finally starting to add up! Too bad the 4 or 5 inches we already had, melted a bit yesterday.
--Brian
Ithaca, my old stomping grounds. I still remember that unreliable TCAT service when I was out there for school. And I hated how they had one hour lunch and dinner breaks that suspended service.
It must be blizzarding up there in NYC today. The QBP webcam is showing all white.
http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=54&server=RS2&address=Queens+Plaza+N+%40+Queens+Boro+Bridge
Yeah, but not in Ithaca. Futher south you go, the more snow you got (this time).
Hey Doobie Doobie Do, I just stepped out to see for myself and the sun is out and shining brightly, the sky is clear blue and there is a nice little chill in the air. Typical of fabulous Southern California weather. Ever thought of coming out here to live? Believe me, it's God's Country--California.
It's sunny in Denver today, too. Funny thing - yesterday it snowed everywhere else in Colorado except Denver. The sun came out at about mid-morning.
I was just checking out the weather channel website---and it looks as though we're in for more white stuff around Wednesday of next week.
Well battan down the hatches and good luck guys. I hear we may get some rain.
Get your caboose back here (the east coast) and freeze with the rest of us!!!!
As I write this it's 14 degrees in downtown Baltimore, 10 or below in the burbs.
Tomorrow (12/7) Tinsel Trolley starts at BSM. We get to turn the shop into "Santa's Workshop - Baltimore Division". That includes shoveling the snow off the shop platform. Weather forecast is temps in the low 40's tomorrow.
Gee, thnaks for the tip < G >
it stopped here in northern nj.(near newark) now the work begins. hope the snow blower works!!
Was my lucky day. My neighbor got home before be & had already made two passes down my side walk with his snow blower.
Later that night I pushed my shovel down his sidewalk to return the favor.
Radioactive patients set off subway alarms
12:55 05 December 02
Emma Young
Americans undergoing radioactive medical treatments risk setting off anti-terrorism sensors in public places, and subsequent strip searches by police, warn doctors at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York.
A 34-year-old patient who had been treated with radioactive iodine for Graves disease, a thyroid disorder, returned to their clinic three weeks later complaining he had been strip-searched twice in Manhattan subway stations. Christopher Buettner and Martin Surks report the case in a letter to the Journal of the American Medical Association.
"Police had identified him as emitting radiation and had detained him for further questioning. This patient's experience indicates that radiation detection devices are being installed in public places in New York City and elsewhere," the doctors write.
Buettner and Surks contacted the Terrorism Task Force of the New York City Police Department to determine how to prevent other patients being detained.
A letter describing the isotope used and its dose, its biological half-life and the date and time of treatment, plus a 24-hour contact telephone number for the patient's physician should help, the police said.
But even in the best-case scenario, a patient will have to wait while the contents of the letter are verified, say the doctors. "They may choose not to use public transportation to avoid this inconvenience," they write.
Journal reference: Journal of the American Medical Association (vol 288, p 2687)
Sheesh - talk about "Glowing in the dark"
I wouldn't mind having the contract supplying the NYPD with adult diapers.
I've run into this myself, over two years ago... on Amtrak, preparing to cross the border into Canada. I had been hospitalized with heart problems a couple of weeks earlier and had been given radioactive isotopes as part of a stress test; the US Border Patrol inspecting the train detected the radiation and asked questions, but that was all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
Last summer before I retired, the NYPD Pension Section recommended all potential retirees to take a thallium stress test to see if we were eligible for the heart bill. After taking it, the doctor gave me a note to hold for a week to show anyone if I get stopped for radiation. They did say it was mainly for bridges and tunnels, not for subways.
Last summer before I retired, the NYPD Pension Section recommended all potential retirees to take a thallium stress test to see if we were eligible for the heart bill.
Taxpayer dollars at work.
["Taxpayer dollars at work"]
Nope, Pete, this Thallium stress test wasn't even covered by my HIP coverage. I paid $650 out of my own money.
But Jeff, isn't the reason for taking a Thallium test just because you were retiring to possibly increase your pension, which is taxpayer dollars. It's like gambling $650 for an extra $X per month per life.
I wonder what percentage of the Thallium tests do show heart problems?
That is a gamble nobody would want to win!! Sure, the pension would be about $75,000 tax free which would be great, like winning lotto, but it would come with a heart condition and triple bypasses. Besides, life expectancy would be so much less it would be a lot more profitable in the long run to get a regular pension!!!
I guess my question is: how much heart disease does there have to be for the in-service disability pension to apply. I don't know what the limits are, but if it's just something like elevated cholesterol, 10% clogging of the arteries or similar minor heart problems, then that would be unfair.
I guess my question is: how much heart disease does there have to be for the in-service disability pension to apply. I don't know what the limits are, but if it's just something like elevated cholesterol, 10% clogging of the arteries or similar minor heart problems, then that would be unfair.
I suspect it isn't much. Sgt. Jeff originally said that all retiring police officers were being urged to have this radioactive test to see if they might qualify for the heart-disease pension. That seems to imply that the pension is available to people without any obvious symptoms.
As I said, our tax dollars at work.
I suspect that the test would show many of us in the 40's and 50's (like you, me and Sarge) have some heart-related problems, although mostly minor. If that's enough to get you a 75,000 tax free pension (proabably equivalent to 120,000 taxable), then that's just not right.
Well then, come here, where minor heart problems will have you "Restricted, No Work Available". I just went through a blizzard of tests back in May, because a TA-administered EKG gave me a resting heartbeat of 58/min. After two additional EKGs, blood tests, stress test and echocardiogram came back negative for heart problems, they grudingly let me continue to work. The outside doctors, meanwhile, wished they could always find a 40 year old in as good shape as I was.
Well then, come here, where minor heart problems will have you "Restricted, No Work Available". I just went through a blizzard of tests back in May, because a TA-administered EKG gave me a resting heartbeat of 58/min. After two additional EKGs, blood tests, stress test and echocardiogram came back negative for heart problems, they grudingly let me continue to work. The outside doctors, meanwhile, wished they could always find a 40 year old in as good shape as I was.
I don't understand. Isn't 58bps at rest excellent? I got this from This site
AGE
20 - 29 yrs
30 - 39 yrs
40 - 49 yrs
50 + yrs
MEN
Excellent
under 60
under 64
under 66
under 68
Good
60 - 69
64 - 71
66 - 73
68 - 75
Fair
70 - 85
72 - 87
74 - 89
76 - 91
Poor
over 85
over 87
over 89
over 91
WOMEN
Excellent
under 70
under 72
under 74
under 76
Good
70 - 77
72 - 79
74 - 81
76 - 83
Fair
78 - 94
80 - 96
82 - 98
84 - 100
Poor
over 94
over 96
over 98
over 100
That's what I've always thought, the lower the better.
Apparently, too low of a resting pulse is a signal for some types of heart problems -bradycardias. The cut off is 60bps. And since the TA loves to put people out for the slightest little problem...
The TA Doctor's final statement as I left was, "That's all right. we'll get you next year."
I suspect that the test would show many of us in the 40's and 50's (like you, me and Sarge) have some heart-related problems, although mostly minor. If that's enough to get you a 75,000 tax free pension (proabably equivalent to 120,000 taxable), then that's just not right.
I'd say you are quite right. This talk reminds me of something I heard several years ago when I lived in Connecticut. Like New York, Connecticut has a law that allows police officers and firefighters to retire early on lucrative pensions if they have heart disease or high blood pressure, even though the conditions may be quite minor. This so called "heart and hypertension" law was and is very costly to the state. A politician suggested, at least somewhat seriously, that only women should be hired as police officers and firefighters because their lower incidence of heart disease would save the state many millions of dollars a year.
I wish NY would give 3/4 for hypertension. Then I would qualify!
I'm not positive but I would think it would have to be a serious heart condition. Most people who get the heart bill get it after a heart attack. By the way, I've heard of instances where people took the thallium stress test just for retirement and it saved their life.
Pardon my stupidity, but what's a thallium test?
Peace,
ANDEE
Pardon my stupidity, but what's a thallium test?
As far as I know, it's some sort of heart test that involves injecting a person with a radioactive substance. Presumably the amount of radiation is too low to cause illness, though it's enough to trigger radiation alarms in the subway.
Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
Radioactive tracers are used to help define organ function, to check for inflammation or damage to an organ (example: nuclear scan for testicles after you get kicked in the groin or fall off your bike etc.; another example: bone scan to look for infections or cancer).
If I recall correctly, sometimes a patient will have to "bag" urine for the first few times after the test or treatment is over because the water department doesn't want "hot" substances to be washed into the sanitary sewer. It depends on the isotope and the dose; I'm not familiar with the most recent policy on that.
We all have radiation coming from us. Some just have more than others :)
Tells you something about the sensitivity of the sensors. I wonder what the threshold is. For example gas lantern mantles contain radioactive Throium and many naturally occuring rocks can be radioactive (who do you think Radon is the #2 cause of lung canser in the US). Many nuclear powerplants have to scower their grounds for naturally radioactive rocks because they set off federal inspectors instruments and can result in fines. The fact that the rocks in the parking lot are more radioactive than the power plant makes you wonder why nuclear power has such a bad name.
The fact that the rocks in the parking lot are more radioactive than the power plant makes you wonder why nuclear power has such a bad name.
Because people don't understand it. BTW, the natural radioactive levels of the Capitol building violate the EPA's standards for the still in planning Yucca mountain project. It's only the insistence of the typically braindead environmentalists that's holding it up -- in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years. There's no need to worry about storing the stuff for 'thousands of years'.
There's a great film online (54 megs, I have the url somewhere) that while poor in quality, shows a lot of footage of the cleanup of Three Mile Island, including in core photos of what happened. It's amazing, really. They totally wasted the reactor core and yet there were zero deaths (and in fact., no evidence of increased caner rates either) from the accident.
BTW, the natural radioactive levels of the Capitol building violate the EPA's standards for the still in planning Yucca mountain
This is to be expected, given the high concentration of Congresscritters and their attendant lobyists and thier spew of vapid rhetoric.
Elias
Radioactive levels? I thought it was more like toxic waste!
"in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years"
I knew that didn't sound right to me. A quick google search shows the half life of Uranium 235 is 700 million years.
"in any case, spent fuel's radioactivity drops to the levels of the ore it was mined from in about 300 years"
I knew that didn't sound right to me. A quick google search shows the half life of Uranium 235 is 700 million years.
How are these two statements in conflict?
Is spent fuel U 235?
For how long is it dangerous?
What *is* the radiation level of the ore?
Are we speaking of apples and fruitcakes, or is one statement in error?
Frankly I did not know of the 300 year number, and scratched my head and said Huh?
But I didn't look anything up.
Elias
I stand partially corrected, in the details but not the overall conclusion. A google search on spent nuclear fuel says that while there is some U 235 in spent fuel(U 235 is the active ingredient in the original fuel rods), the major radioactive ingredient is the spent fuel is Plutonium 239. The latter has a half life of only 24,000 years. Still a lot more than 300 years.
>>>>"They may choose not to use public transportation to avoid this inconvenience," <<<<
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. What are these people supposed to do?
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't know there were subway alarms to detect radioactive materials.
-->pokes you...
There aren't...ones that you are supposed to know about.
I feel for them. I have metal in my left ankle due to being a victim of an auto accident and I often set off metal detectors. Every time I have to go through oen I cringe and advsie the security person before hand and usally wind up being screen with a hand held wand which beeps when they get to my ankle. I show them the scar and let them offer to touich the ankle to feel the metal and they let me pass. Thank goodness I have never had a frisk!
Saw R46 on "E", yesterday AM, first time in a while...
yea its very rare. it happens mostly mondays, because since V dont run, some V become E. and its Rare. i even saw a R32 on the R and the R46 on the E
Monday's? The V run's on Monday's.You mean on Saturday or Sunday.
The V DOES run on Mondays unless it is a holiday that runs on a Sunday schedule, then it does not.
I haven't seen such a thing in a long time. I would speculate that since R46s are needed for the (G) and (V), which must be ALL R46, and since there have been new R32s sent to Jamaica (really Kew Gardens Hills, but who's counting) Yard from Coney Island, there are enough R32s to make the (E) all R32 most of the time, and the R46s are needed elsewhere. The (F) and (R) are now mostly R46 with some R32s.
:-) Andrew
I should add that not long ago, the (F) was ALL R46, no matter what, even if using an R32 was necessary to prevent the end of the universe. It's good to see some variety now.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, but if you purposely wait for an R-32 F train to show up, usually you're out of luck. I tried that in October while riding through the 63rd St. tunnel, but time was short and I had to settle for R-46s. Not bad except I couldn't see through the cab door window - it was covered with newspapers.
I have the same problem looking for that lone R32 to show up on the F to take pictures. My last few times at Stillwell came about to be no such luck. Now I have to go somewhere else to hopefully catch an R32 train on the F since Stillwell is closed to renovation until late next year, or sometime in 2004.
I guess they don't have two sets of the R46 set aside for the E train anymore, especially with the addition of the V line. -Nick
R46 on the E is no stranger to every longtime E rider. The "R46 on the E" has on and off ever since the R32 set their foot in the system. As a E rider to commute to/from work or friend's place. R46 pop up on the E once to fourth time some months before and after the V exist. Don't be surprised when you found out that one or two of the R32 F was burrowed or come from the E. And some of the R32 R was burrowed or come from the N when slants began to dominate N. Just like the current W burrowed some R32 and R40S from N and some R46 from the R. Now, I'm trying to figured out where are the Grand Shuttle R46 fleet comes from?
Excuse my previous response to this topic.
R46 on the E is no stranger to every longtime E rider. The "R46 on the E" has been on and off ever since the R32 set their foot in the system. As a E rider to who usually commute to/from work or friend's place. R46 pop up on the E once to fourth time in some months every year before and after the V exist. The previous reports of R46 sighting on the E was dated back in sometime in March of 2002 (thats is after V existed)Don't be surprised when you found out that one or two of the R32 on the F was burrowed or come from the E. And some of the R32 R was burrowed or come from the N when slants began to dominate N. Just like the current W that burrowed some of R32 and R40S from the N and one or two R46 from the R. Now, I'm trying to figured out where are the Grand Shuttle R46 fleet comes from?
What about that time that the W had a couple of R46 sets back in September?????
what about it?? Seen in september and even sometime in August and july. Who know when or what time the next R46 W train will pop up. Only TA Knows
The Jamaica Yard.
If I'm not mistaken, they come from Coney Island Yard
Cool. The last time I saw a R46 E was when it ran to Brooklyn during the switch replacement at WTC 2 years ago and I'm not kidding. It is basically rare to see that since the R32 is almost exclusive on the E.
You don't ride 8th av daily, do you?
I've seen R46 E's dozens of times since that switch was replaced. It's hardly noteworthy.
Even more interesting: R-38's on the E...
No wonder why some E train car doesn't have the whistle sound. I can tell it must be R38, cause all R38 doesn't have whistle.
The only time you had 38's on the E recently was after 9/11 they used cars out of Pitkin for the E line (running Parsons->Euclid).
"The only time you had 38's on the E recently was after 9/11 they used cars out of Pitkin for the E line (running Parsons->Euclid)."
Really? I recall seeing more R46s on the E in the weeks following 9/11. -Nick
Really? I recall seeing more R46s on the E in the weeks following 9/11. -Nick
I didn't say that 38's made up the majority of E trains. I just said they used 38's. And the first few days (I don't know exactly how many, maybe 2 or 3), they were putting together 10 car sets for the E.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. -Nick
There was another time when R38s ran on the "E". That was when the TA had a GO to replace the crossover just north of the WTC station. I believe it was in the year 2000 and lasted for several weeks. The TA suspended "C" trains, and used "E" trains to replace them between 50th St. and Euclid Ave. During this time, the "E" was about 97% R32s-used all R32s from Pitkin and Jamaica Yards. The other 3% was an R46 or R38. Also during this time, the "B" ran one or two R38s.
Shortly after 9/11 (I believe 9/17) the "E" pretty much was 95% R46s. This lasted until sometime in November when most of the subway lines went back to their normal routing, save for the "1", "2", "3" and "9". Once this happened, you couldn't find an R46 on the "E" for a couple of months. Nowadays, there are ususally 2 or 3 R46s on the "E" at any given time.
The R-38s also ran on the E when they were new. I saw an R-38 E train once during rush hour at 42nd St. in 1968.
And of course in "Coming to America" :)
You of course are right. Inm my post I said 'recently' because I thought that Express was mentioning a time not too far past.
No, it is not an R38. When MK rebuilt the R32s, they did this in 2 phases. The first phase did not have the whistle sound. The second phase did whistle. Somebody on the board will have to explain the mechanics on what causes the whistle sound. Also, all R32s assigned to the "C" is phase one (does not whistle). The "E" has both phases and the "N" only had phase two R32s.
The Phase I and Phase II R-32s have different companies' air brakes (WABCO vs. New York Air Brake).
David
Out of curiousity, it this the same setup for the Mainline R33s?
Yes -- the mainline R-33s were all done at 207th Street, but the order for the braking equipment was split between WABCO and NYAB.
David
Even more interesting: R-38's on the E...
Might have seen one or two.
I was thrilled to see this book by Brian Cudahy rereleased. It has been updated with more pictures, and an intro which talks about 9/11. Has anyone else picked up this book? It's the best PATH book around from, IMHO, the best subway author ever!
It's been out for about a year now... not a bad little book. I had read the original version (borrowed) many years ago and was glad to see it come out again so I could get a copy at a relatively reasonable price.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just grabbed a copy on half.com shipped for 15.74. Thanks for the heads up. I love the new information age.
Don't forget, if you buy items from our Bibliography via Amazon.Com you help support this site.
If you can accept PayPal I'll support this site directly.
I can, now, if you want... pirmann@panix.com is my registered Paypal address.
Thanks Mike!
Dave
I was wondering if there exists a website or program that allows "online scanning" of radio transmission. It would be interesting to listen to the Bus Command Center announcements from home, especially whether or not the TA is providing regular service during such weather. Of course, I could just make a phone call, but the idea of listening to the actual announcements piqued my curiousity.
Does anyone know whether one can use their PC (along with WinMP or RA) to hear actual NYCTA radio transmissions?
Thanks.
(cc: BusTalk)
I don't know of anyone doing this. Streaming audio is not cheap or easy...
Thanks Dave. I found a website that offers free streaming audio of live scanner discussions between Staten Island's NYPD/EMS/FDNY but thus far, no transit related feed.
Does anybody have a screenshot of the subway scene in the "Pope of Greenwich Village" mentioned on the Subway Bibliography page for movies?
(I don't have the video)
Please try to take a shot from the video screen.
Thanks.
To those of you with early reports Plan 4 is in effect for Fri.
Set those alarm clocks.
Is that anything like "Plan 9 from Outer Space"
No. Even NYCT has a bigger budget than Ed Wood! LOL!
(Just noticed your post now).
Lets see the full length G trains!
Unfortunately 4 car would be a full length G now.
I think "full length train" in the Plans is a throwback to the day when you'd have shorter trains depending on time of day.
Just a second, I thought with the coming of 09/08 "G" trains were supposed to be restored to 6 R-46 MU's, at least during weekdays times.
Whats going on with all the 32's being sent from CI to Jamaica? They are in turn sending them ALL to Pitkin? How many has Jamaica retained
What exactly is plan 4? Is that with the trains stored underground and no express service?
Basically, "PLAN 4" requires all trains to lay up underground, where possible (ie,Concourse Line middle track). It also requires all crews to report 3 to 4 hours earlier. Express service is not affected, where possible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you for that report. This being my RDO, I would have never known..............
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
I did you one better, Mike. In a wonderful bit of advance planning, I had today off as an AVA.
I had today as an AVA as well. Thank God! I would have never made it.
So the next time u take an AVA, WATCH OUT!!!!!!! :)
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
A TSS up in Westchester was getting the diesels ready when I happenned to have spoken to him yesterday about mid-day...
Question: Is there a 'Plan 9' and when does THAT go into effect? :)
When you start seeing paper plates 'round your head.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hahahahahaha!!!!! ROTFLMAO!
MTA LIRR Weather Advisory
Thats what I just saw out my window. A m1/3 car (E4501) between two MP15AC's (one of which was 165). I assume hey were snowblowing in the Far Rock line? Cool, eh?
>>Thats what I just saw out my window. A m1/3 car (E4501) between two MP15AC's (one of which was 165). I assume hey were snowblowing in the Far Rock line? Cool, eh?<<
E4501 is an old M-1 converted as an alcohol car. There should be air grates where some windows used to be. Spraying the contact rails with alcohol to prevent ice buildup. The old M-1 isn't self propelled anymore, explaining the two MP-15's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Along with the RPA, another rational voice against the LIRR "supershuttle":
http://www.newsday.com/business/local/newyork/ny-bzlia053032370dec05.story
Nut graf:
"Three other transportation projects are more important - Long Island Rail Road access to Grand Central Station, a third track on the LIRR's main line to increase the movement of freight and improvements to Route 347 between Hauppauge and Port Jefferson, said Mitchell Pally, the Long Island Association's vice president for government affairs."
It's one thing to hurt subway riders. But when the supposed beneficiaries are in revolt, Brookfield and their allies have a real problem.
How true. Those "Brookfield" plans looked like the answer to a question no one had ever asked.
The brookfeild plans will potenionally allow it to charge hihger rents thus make billions more in profits. Brookfeild and silverstein have both make a big bet on higher rents in lower manhattan by buying additioal real estate
This reminds me so much of developers who used to come to our design firm in Cincinnati with great ideas for new expressways, for us to help present to the Chamber of Commerce and other high-PR type audiences. Big kawinkidink -- they always had offramps right next to their property.
The Trade Center was originally meant to reopen lower Manhattan. Lower Manhattan needs and is getting diversity, housing, tourism, liveliness, and 24-hour use. When will people realize that the high-rent action and the transit transfers are in Midtown and the only reason for the "tangle" downtown is that it was built 70-100 years ago?
The best LIRR solution would be an extension of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel (using the abandoned section) through Lower Manhattan and up the West Side to Penn Station. That would let EVERY train (even from Port Washington!!) serve both Midtown and Downtown; it would allow for some interesting thru-routing options; and it would free up capacity on connecting subway lines for city-based growth.
Does anybody have a few billion dollars to spare?
(The best LIRR solution would be an extension of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel (using the abandoned section) through Lower Manhattan and up the West Side to Penn Station. That would let EVERY train (even from Port Washington!!) serve both Midtown and Downtown; it would allow for some interesting thru-routing options; and it would free up capacity on connecting subway lines for city-based growth.)
I actually have a better option, and a cheaper one (not the same!). The better one is a "super-suburban connector subway through a new tunnel, up the EAST side as the express tracks of the Second Avenue (which would thus have suburban support for its construction), over to Grand Central (MetroNorth and the Port Washington Branch also gets a super-subway Downtown), the out through another tunnel to Secaucus Transfer (NJ gets a super subway connection to Grand Central). That is essentially the RPA Rx plan. It isn't a one-seat ride, but it is an easy connection to an empty, fast, frequent train with multiple destinations.
The cheaper option is to extend the Atlantic Branch to the Brooklyn Waterfront, dead-ending at a ferry terminal. Given the shortness of the route, private ferries could carry Long Islanders to several spots in Lower Manhattan -- Wall St, South Ferry, Battery Park City -- in a couple of minutes for two bucks or less. Unlike the subway, the ferries would not be jammed with city residents before the Long Islanders boarded, and could be timed to meet the trains (and vice versa).
Of course, neither of these options deposit affluent suburban residents directly at Brookfield'd properties. But they do own BPC, and might go for the ferry option.
"But they do own BPC"
Not that it matters to your suggestion, but Brookfield does not own Battery Park City. BPC Authority is a state agency and owns most of the buildings at BPC. Brookfield owns most but not quite all of the World Financial Center.
(Not that it matters to your suggestion, but Brookfield does not own Battery Park City. BPC Authority is a state agency and owns most of the buildings at BPC. Brookfield owns most but not quite all of the World Financial Center.)
The WFC is part of Battery Park City, is it not? In any event, that's what I meant.
Just wanted to give the posters here a heads up that I have put 42 new nyc subway photos (despite the fact I now reside in Boston) on my website (www.nycrail.com). Included are more than a dozen of the Coney Island reconstruction.
Enjoy,
Harry
Nice photos! The South Ferry link didn't work, though.
Thought I was the only surfer who had problems downloading the SF photos.
Thanks for the comments.
South ferry now works.
Harry
Wow, it's nice to know you're still around Harry! Why'd you move to Boston? :-(
He goes to school there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Harry, Good luck with you mid-terms. When will you be back in town ?
Another friend will be in town from Calif. Maybe we can coor. some railfanning ?
I actually had midterms a month and a half ago... finals are in two weeks though (essentially another set of midterms). I would definetly like to get together for some railfanning, I should be back around the end of December.
I'll be in touch.
-Harry
The Other Side of the Tracks
I've just remembered that the man who first drew the famous diagrammatic map of the London Underground system, in 1933, was called .... Harry Beck. Is Harry in Ithaca his reincarnation?
A) I am Harry in Boston, not Ithaca (that would be Brian).
B) I am not related to him although I occasionally get e-mails from people who think I am...
-Harry
The Other Side of The Tracks
Just watched the abc 7 news. There reports of delay on Major Airports, Metro North (Hudson and New Haven Branch), LIRR, New Jersey Transit, Amtrak and even NEW TRANSIT BUSES and private buses.
LIRR..20 min
New Jersey Transit..15 min
Metro North...10 min
Acela Express Amtrak....20 min
Major Airport (Newark, Dulles, La Guardia, Kennedy)...3 Hours.
All MTA New York City delay because of traffic. Same story with (Queens Surface, Jamaica Buses, ect)
MTA New York City Subway, running smooth with no delays.
So that makes the Subway the safest transportation handling the major weather condition.
WRONG, problems on the W had them backed up north bound. At least one train removed from service ran light with RCI on board, I think it was the 1517 or 1527, not sure.
Yeah, there were Qs running into Jay Street on the Culver from the south, then turning around, at 3:30. There was along wait for the F, which then ran express. My wife took 1:15 to get home after 5:00, rather than the usual 30 minutes.
Ferries are presumably running with no delay. Ferries lost popularity in part due to the weather -- 120 years ago the rivers used to freeze over. Not now. I guess they benefit from global warming.
During 1 winter in the early 90's -- 1993 I think, the Hudson came very close to freezing over. Huge chunks of ice saturated the water and on some cold overnights froze together near each shore.
At that time I took the Hoboken to WFC ferry as part of my daily commute -- the sound the boat made as it scraped against these mini-icebergs was frightening.
I think there were a few days that the ferry couldn't run because there was so much ice.
CG
The NY area Hudson would never freeze. Its got too much flow and is tidal.
At 6:00 I walked thru Hoboken Terminal; ALL trains were being delayed or annulled due to frozen switches. It was as if they'd never dealt with snow before...
hmmm lets see i can see the L train from my window and i dont see them running by very often. a freind told me there were door problems on lorimer on an r143 so dont know how good the L train is running
I think he means in reference to the snow.
all day long i havent seen too many trains running by on the upper level of wilson ave.... and when they do its a turtle goin by lol
Door problem on the R143, that strange! the fleet is new and aready have mechanical problem. It doesn't look good to me.
Its more common than you realise.
hmmm lets see i can see the L train from my window and i dont see them running by very often. a freind told me there were door problems on lorimer on an r143 so dont know how good the L train is running
Actually the Acela express is seeing 2 hours and 15 minute delay.
Delays that bad, and it ain't even worth it.
Which ones? I checked on 2172 at one point (random train) and it was on time (last report from Baltimore).
Acela express from Boston. IIRC it was suppose to come in at 5. This was at 6 oclock so things could of changed.
?? What 2:15 is a fine delay comapred to the Air Shuttle which isn't even running for over 5 hours.
During the 1996 snowstorm, the only public transit system running close to schedule and all night through the storm was
*drum roll*
The Newark City Subway
with 50 year old cars yet.
Who wants to put money on whether the new system out of Newark Penn ran at all today?
My train on the LIRR (5:22 to Ronkonkoma, where I change for Medford) was about 15 minutes late - but not because of the weather. We had to make an unscheduled stop at Floral Park due to a "sick passenger." Your prototypical subway delay, only this time on the LIRR.
According to WCBS Radio's web site: NJT- scattered rail delays especxially ont he Morris and Essex Lines. SEPTA: 15-20 minutes rail delays, PATH 20 minutes delay.
I expect by the AM there will be more delays due to sub freezing weather. I know they have switch heaters but there are always problems. I also expect NJT will not use the center doors on high platform lines causing delays due to congestion.
Fishbowl- can you elaborate why they dont use center doors in snow> IS it due to closing problems due to snow buildup?
speaking of switch heaters- Amtrak uses open natural gas heaters-- it looks like the tracks "are burning" (of course they are not) They sue them near Newark Penn. An especially good view is from the Newark boudn PATH platform at Harrison.
The classic way of keeping points free was to litterally pour oil on the switches and then set them on fire. I have a great pic of an Amtrak train leaving Chicago and passing over blazing switches.
The open/shrouded gas burner was very popular with Conrail and Amtrak. They also use resistance bands on the | part of the rail.
NS, Canadian and Western RR's prefer the hot air blower style point heaters. These have a boxy gas or electric run forced air heater that connect to duct work that runs around the rails to blow hot air on the points.
The 7:30 Delta Shuttle from LaGuardia to Washington this morning had a strange journey. It took off normally, but while in flight the crew found out that DCA had just closed (the storm hit Washington first). The flight turned back to LaGuardia, but before it arrived that airport closed too. Presumably, the passengers were quite dismayed when they ended up in Hartford!
Looks like they should have listened to the "Weatherproof" Acela ads.
List:
For those (like me) who may have wanted views of the ex-Pelham R-62As on the Livonia Ave. El, it appears to now be too late.
If (like me) you've been waiting for something interesting to happen with the R-62s for almost 19 years, you are evidently about to get your wish.
This is shaping up as an interesting weekend on the IRT.
..and don't forget about the ERA Redbird trip on Sunday, either.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Huh? R62s moving to the 3?
This would mean that the R62A's that were assigned to the #3 will be going to the Flushing line, being replaced by Woodlawn's R62's, which will themselves be replaced by newly arrived R142's. Am I getting this right?
Have the R62's run anywhere but the #4 line since they were first introduced in 1984/5?
Other than non-revenue service, I don't think so.
They've made a few appearences on the Shuttle sometime back(I cant remember what year). And on the 5 due to a GO.
And speaking of the 4, what happened to car 1436
It's gone, it was the FOURTH car in the Union Square wreck of 1991. Various damages included mashed bonnets and anti-climbers at BOTH ends (it crashed into #1440, and, in turn #1435 crashed into it), and the accordion impact caused the car to go out of plumb so it didn't tram correctly and thus was scrapt.
wayne
What is the status of 1366, 1367, and 1368?
Can they convert 1368 to an end unit, and have a 3 car set for the Shuttle?
During 2/5 G.O.s, the 5 from 149-GC to Bowling Green uses Jerome equipment, most likely R33s, but once in a while, an R62 made it on the 5...
Also, some time ago, about 10 years ago...don't remember why, but I saw an R62 consist on the 6 line, one set was specifically #1416-1420, the other I think #1411-1415, but I don't remember it...it was one of those "you know where you were and what you were doing" kinda things...I was with my mother at the Parkchester-E 177th St Station waiting for a S/B 6 train when I saw the R62 #6 train briefly...I remember it like it was yesterday...but why I saw it there, idk
Carlton
Cleanairbus
There was a R62 consist on the 6 for about a week or two sometime this year. Forgot when...
I think in 2000. I remember getting a pic of 1342 on the 6. It's not the greatest pic b/c I had a disposable but you can clearly see #1342 with 6 signs.
Also I rode 1625 on the 5 the day of the MNRR Open House Trip. Took to 59 St b/c of the 7 Line G.O. Strange to see a #4 car on the #5.
There were 3 other sets I saw that day.
#1625 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
I think in 2000. I remember getting a pic of 1342 on the 6. It's not the greatest pic b/c I had a disposable but you can clearly see #1342 with 6 signs.
Also I rode 1625 on the 5 the day of the MNRR Open House Trip. Took to 59 St b/c of the 7 Line G.O. Strange to see a #4 car on the #5.
There were 3 other sets I saw that day. I forget the car #'s.
It won't be pretty to see 1301-1625 with HUGE BLUE STICKERS.
Take a look at 1791-1795 on the 1/3/9 when you get a free chance.
Then you'll know what I mean.
#1625 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Unfortunately, the shop puts one sticker on top of another. 1711-15 are a perfect example. They came into the system wearing red, then, yellow, then red again, finally blue. When I saw them a few days ago, they were still sporting blue stickers.
Do shop personnel at Corona actually scrape of the old stickers?
-Stef
Yes. Most of the R62as have purple stickers.
Yes. They replaced the redbird R17s on the Grand Central Shuttle. Pelham R62As then replaced the R62s, followed by the current Livonia R62As.
Also, there was a weekend GO years ago. The "4" was only going as far as Atlantic Ave. All "3" service was cut back to Utica Ave. Bus service operated from Utica to New Lots Ave. I didn't see the "4", but the "3" was entirely R62s.
Also, when the first set of R62s were delivered, they ran in revenue test service on the "2", "4" and "7".
Finally, the recent GO of the "2" and "5" in the Bronx prompted R62 to operate on the "5". I took a couple of pictures. If anybody is interested, please post your email address and I will send them to you.
Back in 1987 or 1988, there were a few R62A from Livonia operating on the "4" for a brief time.
I'm interested in seeing the pictures of the R-62's on the #5 email me @ marimin@aol.com for I could see the pictures.
If you are still online check your email. I just sent you the pictures. Email me to let me know what you think.
I didn't get the pictures I downloaded it but it came with a wordpad. Try to download it again.
I just thought of this. If the 3 becomes R62s, that means the shuttle does as well. There are not any single R62 sets. What will they do?
Here is what I thought of:
1. Move the shuttle to Jerome since that is where the R62As are going. When the 142s come in, put some into 4 car sets and others in 6. (10 car trains for the 4 and 4 for the shuttle).
2. Use the R62s, but put some into 4 car sets and others into 3s. Lock down the easternmost car on track 1 so that people don't get on it at Grand Central only to be stuck there at Times Square.
3. Keep some R62As at Livonia for the shuttle
4. Something else???
Jerome Assigned R-62As for Shuttle Service would most likely remain single. Some single units are scheduled to remain on the Mainline after the 7 gets all of it's R-62As.
-Stef
This is what i believe will happen:
1901-1908, 1910-1965 will be used on the 4 and S Lines.
1966 and up will be going to the 7.
1301-1625 will be going to the 3.
R142 1101-1220 will be going to the 4.
Can you say YUCK?
#1521 4 Lexington Ave Express
I believe the number was closer to 55 Cars. That would be Cars 1901-55. 1956 and up would be on the 7.
The 4 should be getting 7100 and 7200 series cars.
-Stef
WHAT? Is this definite? The West Side is losing the last of its railfan windows this weekend? And I foolishly went and railfanned the 4 today because I thought it would be losing its railfan windows soon.
I'm not happy.
I refuse to believe that this is true so since I'm going out on Sunday and beginning my trip on the 3 from terminal-terminal,I'll see if I'll be greeted with R62's or R62A's at 148th St. and let everyone know my observation later that night.
So the R62's may no longer be the mainstay of the 4? That would be something.
You sure this going to happen?? Most of the Pelham R62A's have stickers on them. Ill be on the today through Monday and note any changes...........
"Showing Disdain to the House of Pain."
Well guess what everyone,I took my trip on the 3 today from 148-New Lots Av. and there WAS NO swap of equipment between the 3&4.So this thread is officially untrue.I was on car #1907 railfanning just in case any subtalker's were on that train.It departed 148 at 4:30 PM.
OK, time to talk about each line and the cars that would go best on it.
My favorites:
R-40S on the B
R-68 on the D
R-38's on the E
R-32 on the N
R-62A on the 6
R-36 on the 7
R-33/36 on the S (42 St) shuttle
Here are mine
R44 on the A
R68(Or R68A) on the Q
World Series car on the 7
R62's on the 4
Here are mine
R44 on the A
R68(Or R68A) on the Q
World Series car on the 7
R62's on the 4
Here is my top 10 favorite subway line-fleet
R42 on the M
R32 with the whisle sound on the E, Franklin Shuttle
R68 on the W D
R40 on the L J
R32 on the R
R44 on the A
R62 on the 4 6
R33 on the 5 with the whistle sound
R46 on the F
My favorites:
A-R-44 with reinstatement of field shunting and removal of timers. 75mph service here we come.
B-R32
C-R38. Put the crappy cars on the crappy line
D-R32
E-R32
F-R32
G-R62. Running short trains anyway...
J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68
N- D types
Q local-R40S. This might disappoint some, but....
Q exp-flatcars pulled by R-33WF or R-127/134 or diesel units. Time for a real brighton express experience
R-R32
Franklin Shuttle-Q cars R68
42nd st shuttle-Automated R21. Slated for destruction by TWU
1/9-R15
2-R2000. Everyone here will be whining about the loss of the good old R142's.
3-RTS buses. Already being phased in during nights
4/5-R46/68/R110B/BMT standards. The larger cars will alleviate crowding...
6-r62A's
7-r142a
I wonder what R2000 look like. Wait, I got one, about NEW SLANTS with R143 features.
G-R62. Running short trains anyway...
J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68
LOL! I see you are into passengers falling between the station and the platform on the G and crashes in the Eastern Division - makes for some interesting subway riding.
It'll be like the demolition derby.
Lets see:
A: R44 but bring it back to a max speed of 65mph
B: R40
C: R32
D: R68
E: R32
F: R46
G: R32[I miss those on the G]
J/Z: R40M and R42
L: R40M and R42
M: R40M and R42
N: R32
Q local: R68 and R68A
Q express: R32 and R42 bring them back!
R: R46
Franklin Shuttle: R68[no other choice]
Rockaway Park: R44[no other choice]
42 St: R62A[no other choice]
W: R68A
1: R62A
2: R33
3: R62A
4: R33 and R62
5: R26, R28 and R29
6: R62A
7: R33/R36 WF
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>"J-R46.
L-R46
M-R68"<<
R46's and R68's in the BMT LOL keep dreaming ;-)
>>"4/5-R46/68/R110B/BMT standards. The larger cars will alleviate crowding..."<<
75 footers in the IRT would help but the crowding on the Lex will be overmatched anyway.......
O.K Check it out:
A-R68,R68A
B-R42
C-R68,R68A
D-R42
E-R32,R44
F-R42,R44
G-R44(4 CAR UNITS)
J-R32
L-R143
M-R143
N-R40 SLANT,R40 STRAIGHT END,R46 (ONLY R46 ON WEEKENDS AND NIGHTS)
Q-R46
R-R32,R44
S(FRANKLIN)-R46(3 A-A UNITS)
S(ROCKAWAY)-R68A
S(42 ST)-R62A
S(GRAND ST)-R44
V-R42
W-R40 SLANT,R40 STRAIGHT END,R46(COMBINED WITH CARS ASSIGNED TO THE N)
Z-R32
1-R62A
2-R142
3-R62
4-R142A
5-R142
6-R142A
7-R62,R62A
9-R62A
A R44
B R40S
C R38
D R68
E R46
F R46
G R32
J R42
L R143
M R42/R143
N R32/R40S/R40M
Q R68/R68A
R R32/
W R68A
Z R40M/42
1 R62A
2 R142
3 R62
4 R142/142A
5 R142
6 R142A
7 R62A/R36WF
Now that is a good Combo!
R-40 (slant) on the Q
Redbirds on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
R-32 on the F and N and R
R-38 on the A/C/E
And anything with a decent a railfan window on any other line :)
--Brian
Here's what I like:
E- R46
F- R46
G- R46
J- R42
M- R143/R40 Slant(I wish they would appear on the M again)
L- R143 (obviously)
N- R40 Slant/R42 [I'm loyal to the East. Div. cars :) ]
Q- R40 Slants
R- R32
W- R40 Slants/R68A
Z- R40m
2- Redbirds
4- R142A
6- R142A
7- Redbirds
M- R143/R40 Slant(I wish they would appear on the M again)
Yeah, the slants on the M were great! I don't condone riding between cars, but when I was a bit younger, one summer night me and a friend caught an M slant at Essex, and rode between cars on one of the slant ends across the Bridge, and Broadway el. Man that was fun....probably the best thing next to the vestibuled gate cars that used run years ago.
Riding between cars is a dumb idea though. When you are a kid though, everyone thinks they are invincible.
You know what I'm going to say.:)
R-10s on the A. Best of all time, hands down.
Honorable mention: R-32s on the N. Suddenly it's 1965 all over again.
Want to see R-38's on the E?
Rent "Coming to America".
Just bought it on DVD a couple days ago. IMO, excellent movie......
"Showing Disdain to House of Pain."
Check out the newest images section. There's a whole bunch of new photos of R40M's and R42's on the M line, and others. Some really great photos like the one below. What a great shot by Richard Panse:
I'm kinda hoping Dave is sitting on some more of the older pics that he's yet to scan and put up. I enjoy the ones of the system back in the 60's and 70's.
Yeah, I like those the best also. The old ones are the most interesting. I have plenty of my own current stuff.
I did think the one at Fresh Pond Road was a nice artsy shot though.
I can't say I have any that I haven't scanned yet. But I do have a bunch of Joe T. and friends to process. Old photos are hard to come by; Joe's the only source I have at this point.
Also, I understand you are backlogged but I sent you those monorail photos several months ago. Do you mind telling me their status?
I have enjoyed the past several updates immensely, keep up the good work!
"In the queue". Sorry I can't be any more specific than that, I work on things as I have time.
p.s. the queue is not first in first out. It's "put it in and lets see what I feel like pulling out today". Also if it makes you feel any better recently I've been turning away submissions because you're not the only one who is not exactly pleased with my turnaround time.
I totally understand where you are coming from. Even though my site doesn't take submissions, I have to say, it takes alot of time and effort to get the pictures I take myself from the camera to the Internet. I was merely asking out of curiosity.
Thanks for understanding. :-)
-Dave
I don't know who Richard Panse is but I really like his photography!
I agree! He may not be a SubTalker, but I wonder if it's someone that we only know only by SubTalk handle. That's the drawback when real names are not used in our handles. Whoever Richard is, he took some nice shots!
I don't think he's got a subtalk handle at all.
All I can say this: This website will make even the non-transit afficando to appreciate the beauty and history of one of the oldest transportation systems in the world. Still taking in those pics. some great shots of your and Joe's collection dating back to the 60's.
Heh, heh, heh, I love Fresh Pond Road station. Its my favorite place to smoke a cigaratte(the exit platform below the station itself). I always enjoy the great view of Fresh Pond Road, you can also find Fresh Pond Bus Depot there as well(Hence, what my handle represents)
Although, I think the pic would have looked even better with an R143 :)
Heh, heh, heh, I love Fresh Pond Road station. Its my favorite place to smoke a cigaratte(the exit platform below the station itself).
Well, I don't smoke anymore, but during my college years when I thought it was smart to smoke, I used to sneak a smoke way at the end of the Wyckoff platform. At the far north end of the Metro-bound Platform they built a few storage rooms, one right on the "express track", another at the extreme end of the platform, and just before that there was an abandoned exit. And all the old lamp posts were broken, so it was very dark. So basically you had your own private smoking room once you walked past the abandoned exit.
Well, the abandoned exit is now gone, and the lights are now replaced, and I don't smoke anymore, but it brings back good memories.
I have one ticket for the Redbird Special for Sunday. Does anyone want to buy it?
I saw the M-7 at Nostrand Ave. Today between 7:30 - 7:40 am, Those door chimes are loud, I can hear it 1 block away from Nostrand Ave. Station.
-AcelaExpress2005
Possibly a Long Beach train.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have photos of the Triplex/Steeple Cab fan trip that was just run recently. Thanks in advance.
I have a ton of photos from the trip. But there are only a few photos I have posted. The link is below.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
If you want to see something in paticular. Let me know and I will see if I have it.
Thanks, Tony. Would you please post a couple of photos of the Steeple cab pulling the "D" Types on the elevated structure. Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Bklynsubwaybob
Ok..I posted them I put 3 more (Sending 3 or 4 photos at a time that are almost 1MB a pop with a dial up modem is kinda time consuming lol). And one really cool shot on the A Line. I think it is IMAGE #49 or 50.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=R40_Railfan&c=201
Take a look
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the photos. They're really nice. I really appreciate the time and effort you took to send them.
Best wishes,
Bklynsubwaybob
Not a problem. if you want anything else let me know.
One was ran in TRAINS Magazine (Jan 2003).
Not one of my photos I hope...lol
I took a stack of pictures, but my camera did not work, and so they did not turn out. I did get some pictures (with Piggo12) on a day of railfanning the day before, and then used a FILM camera when I went to Branford the following weekend. Some of those turned out well.
I'll get them up on my website sometime in the distant future.
Elias
I hope you all went out and got photos of the subways in the snow! I want to see some great photos! Post them!
--Brian
There's an advertisment for a car made by Nissan that's been running on TV for a while now. It shows the car pulling up to an intersection, crossing a set of streetcar or LRT tracks and then driving off, all while being photographed by a red light camera. Does anybody know where was it filmed? I'm stumped.
-Robert King
I don't think I've seen it yet.
--Brian
>>> It shows the car pulling up to an intersection, crossing a set of streetcar or LRT tracks and then driving off <<<
I have seen a similar ad filmed in downtown Los Angeles (no tracks). I wonder if they have different film for different parts of the country.
Tom
I've seen that commercial many times and I hate it.
I thought it was Chicago. Could it be San Francisco?
I have seen it here, It is the LA Blue LIne ROW On Long Beach Blvd.
I was just curious as to why some of the lines near Coney Island have the alternate names Culver Line, Sea Beach Line, and Brighton Line? I've just finished racking my brains out studying for a calculus exam on integrals abd I don't feel like looking around for the answer. Thanks for reading.
GO TERPS! WEL WILL WIN THE PEACH BOWL!
p.s. Steve Blake was screwed on Tuesday nght!
Um, they have those names because someone gave them those names and people liked them so they stuck. Or the railroads just kept calling them that. The Brighton Line is the Q and the Culver Line is the F. The Sea Beach is the N and the West End line is the W.
--Brian
BMdoobieW already told you which lines were which but I'll give you a bit more detail. The names of the lines are based on the former steam railroads origins that predate the line letters.
Basically, the Q is known as the Brighton Beach Line because that was the popular name of the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Ry, later the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach.
The N Sea Beach was the New York & Sea Beach. Simple.
The F Culver was the only line named for a person, Andrew Culver, the founder of the Prospect Park & Coney Island.
The W West End was originally the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island, but later the Brooklyn, Bath & West End.
Now that I've done you a favor, you can teach me calculus. :)
The Sea Beach route also referred to the Sea Beach Palace Hotel, where the original steam route terminated in Coney Island.
The West End refers to the west end of Coney Island, where the West End and Sea Beach routes terminated separate from the Brighton and Culver routes. The "west end" was where the current Stillwell Ave. station is located. The Brighton and Culver originally terminated at West 5th Street near today's Acquarium - there was also a large trolley terminal there as well.
The Brighton name also refers to the Brighton Beach hotel which was near today's Brighton Beach station, and the original reason for building this line.
I might add that the line names are still relevant in NYC, because different train routes can go over different sections of track. The line names are like street names, and refer to specific places. The route names are like bus routes (ie. the M104) and refer to the particular service that runs over a particular stretch of track today.
Which leads to an interesting question. Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened? You'd have to disqualify the whole BMT southern division, what with various IND connections and, in any event, the BMT originally used numbers. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the 8th Avenue Express has always been the A train. What about the IRT?
Yes, another diligent reply.
;-) Sparky
Since they fully opened (that is, the lines reached their fulkest physical extent), only the L is essentially unchanged among BMT lines.
The W and Q come close to the original 3 and 1 expresses, except that the Q predcessor switched from tunnel to bridge in the 20s, and they both run north of Times Square, their original northern terminal.
Yes, the A was always the 8th Ave. express. Before the Fulton St. line opened, A trains ran on the South Brooklyn/Smith St. line where the F operates today. Except for the B and C swapover a few years ago, today's IND routes have kept the same northern terminals down through the years. South terminals varied as lines were extended and service patterns adjusted.
..."Before the Fulton St. line opened, A trains ran on the South Brooklyn/Smith St. line where the F operates today."...
Steve, without being Nit-Picky, when the A line was opened to
Rockaway Avenue, the E was extended to Church Avenue prior to
the F, which didn't exist till 1940.
;-) Sparky
Make that before the Queens line opened, then.:)
Steve,
Now your going to make me go look.
;-) Sparky
Except for the B and C swapover a few years ago, today's IND routes have kept the same northern terminals down through the years.
Are we forgetting the Archer Avenue extension?
:-) Andrew
Whoops, you're right. I stand corrected.
"Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened?"
I'd venture to guess that only the 1, 6, 7, G, and L have pretty much done the same thing since they opened (ignoring minor or temporary changes like the recent need for the 1 to go to Brooklyn, the occasional excursions by the 6 to South Ferry, the extension of the G to Church Ave.; though I admit to being hazy about the Flushing Line connection at Queensboro Plaza).
The 2/3/4/5 have juggled southern terminals.
The A, B, C, D, E, F have juggled southern terminals. The J has had its eastern end reworked, and also has gone to South Brooklyn in some incarnations. The M has been rerouted from Myrtle Ave to Manhattan. The N and R have switched northern terminals.
>>>"I'd venture to guess that only the 1,"<<<
IIRC, and this is prior to the R units on the IRT, with the
Low and High V's, it was:
Broadway~7th Avenue Express - 242nd Van Cortland Park to Brooklyn,
Broadway~7th Avenue Local - 137th/Broadway to South Ferry
[that's the current 1 line] also
7th Avenue~Lenox Local - 145th/Lenox to South Ferry.
[current 3 express, was only local in a previous configuration].
;-) Sparky
IRT - Seventh Ave Exp. used to have a northern terminal at 180th ST.- Bronx Park, and the southern terminal in Brooklyn. This completes the four trains on the West Side IRT prior to the change in service north of 96th ST., when they made all Broadway-Seventh Ave service local, and all Seventh Ave (Lenox) service express.
Not the (L)!
The Canarsie Line used to come off of the Broadway Line until the 14th Street Line was extended out that far. That 14th St. Connection is a very late development
Elias
"Which routes have run on the same lines since the lines were opened?"
So in summary, the only ones that nobody can point out a major change on are the Pelham Bay, Flushing, and Crosstown.
(So in summary, the only ones that nobody can point out a major change on are the Pelham Bay, Flushing, and Crosstown.)
Perhaps not those. I was including the route designation as well. The G was previously the GG, though one could argue that doesn't count. It has also shortened up since the original route, too.
Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning? In any event, the Flushing line was joint BMT-IRT service until the 1950s, so it wasn't even really the same route. The route was also extended a couple of times, but I'm not sure that counts as a change.
Was Pelham always the #6?
>>> Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning? <<<
If it did it was kept secret from the passengers who identified trains by the names on the roll signs and the marker lights on the front.
>>> the Flushing line was joint BMT-IRT service until the 1950s, so it wasn't even really the same route <<<
Wait a minute. The IRT Flushing line has run the same route since the subway was extended to Flushing. It never had different terminals. It is true that at one time BMT trains shared the tracks with IRT trains east of Queensboro Plaza, and at one time 2nd Avenue El trains shared the tracks east of Queensboro Plaza, and at one time there was also an IRT service from Times Square to Astoria which shared the tracks between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza, but the IRT Times Square to Flushing line has always been unchanged.
Tom
Did the IRT number scheme date back to the beginning?
If you mean 1904 - the IRT Company never used a numbering scheme - I have maps and Lo-V signs, none of which refer to anything other than the names of the lines.
The first company to assign a number scheme to its routes was the BMT.
The IRT number scheme apparently predates Unification, but it was internal only. The Manhattan els never had numbers.
Fifty years ago the only BMT cars that could display numbers were the Triplex and the Multi. The Standards, gate cars, C types & Q types could not, and did not display numbers.
People who lived on the Jamaica line for example, did not have a clue that they were using the 15 until the number was displayed on the new R-16's in 1955. Passengers back then relied on marker light colors to determine their train.
Do the R32's still have the marker lights (for route identification) or were they "rehabbed" out?
No, the marker lights were removed along with the bulkhead route and destination signs during GOH.
Ok, on the MK R32 rebuilds from 1988-1990, the lights and rollsigns were completely removed and now it looks bland but it had to be done to make room for the A/C units. On the GE R32's however, the original layout is still there but the lights are blocked out and the luminator is over where the rollsigns were.
It isn't a luminator, it's a flip-dot sign. The same kind that they use on the buses.
The R-44 and R-46 side signs are Liquid Crystal Displays made by Luminator.
Yes and the BMT remained with numbers until the R27/R30's came in around 1961 and was the first order to be delivered with letter roll signs and that is how the BMT became letter routes and the IRT became numbers.
"I was including the route designation as well."
On the back of the 1966 map on this site, all IND and IRT trains, and most but not all BMT trains, have route letters or numbers.
On the 1959 map, only the IND trains have letters or numbers.
After Chrystie St., everything had a letter or number.
So it's too much to expect the route designation to stay the same.
In the mid-60s, maps showed letter markings for BMT Southern Division routes. That was where they were implemented first. It wasn't until 1967 and the opening of the Chrystie St. connection that letter markings first appeared for the Eastern Division. Even then, not all trains displayed these markings. The Canarsie line was still all-BMT standards then. AFAIK most Myrtle-Chambers service was also provided by BMT standards as well.
Andy,
Andy, neat reply. Have to teach these younguns, what it's all about.
;-) Sparky
Since we're adding a few details...
The West End refers to the west end of Coney Island, where the West End and Sea Beach routes terminated separate from the Brighton and Culver routes. The "west end" was where the current Stillwell Ave. station is located.
While I think you are probably right that the West End name was adopted because it had the westernmost terminal (of the four steam lines) I haven't been able to establish this definitively. The actual westernmost line (without a fancy terminal) was actually the Culver's branch to Norton's Point.
The Brighton and Culver originally terminated at West 5th Street near today's Acquarium - there was also a large trolley terminal there as well.
The Brighton originally went to the Hotel Brighton, of course, later joining the Culver at its Depot. There were two trolley terminals, east and wesr of the L terminal. You're probably thinking of the Coney Island & Brooklyn terminal, now the B68 bus.
The Brighton name also refers to the Brighton Beach hotel which was near today's Brighton Beach station, and the original reason for building this line.
The Hotel Brighton opened the same time as the railway. In fact Brighton Beach was named by the railway, by a contest. There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
Well, actually there was. Brighton Beach #1 had been at Brighton England for a few hundred years (Brighton was recorded in the Doomesday book).
John
There was no Brighton Beach until there was a Brighton Beach Line.
Well, actually there was. Brighton Beach #1 had been at Brighton England for a few hundred years (Brighton was recorded in the Doomesday book).
Well, OK. And that Brighton Line is immortalized in (among other sources) Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest.
As to the Doomesday book, the NYCTA had one of those two. The Myrtle L wsa in it, and the 3rd Avenue el, and the Culevr shuttle, and the ...
Paul,
Thanks for the astute reply. These youngster's have no idea of
the heritage of these lines. Once again gracias.
;-) Sparky
To add to what Paul had to say: the Culver line was -- briefly -- owned by the Long Island Railroad as there was a connection at Avenue I (known commonly as Parkville Junction) where trains could be diverted to either to connections for ferry service at Bay Ridge, or to Jamaica for trains to points on eastern Long Island. This was also a feature of the steam era.
In a nutshell -- and as far as I'm concerned -- all BMT southern routes (trains w/Coney Island-Stillwell as their destination) travel on their old railroad ROWs (primarily) once they emerge from subway running. Call me old fashioned, but that's just me....
In a nutshell -- and as far as I'm concerned -- all BMT southern routes (trains w/Coney Island-Stillwell as their destination) travel on their old railroad ROWs (primarily) once they emerge from subway running.
Quite so. In some cases on the original right-of-way, albeit for short distances. Major exception is the West End over 86th Street instead of Bath Avenue.
Call me old fashioned, but that's just me....
You're old fashioned. :)
Did the old surface train run ON Shower Avenue, or was there a private ROW?
If the latter, is there still evidence of this private ROW?
Did the old surface train run ON Shower Avenue, or was there a private ROW?
It ran on the avenue--but note there have been some avenue name changes over the years, which I have buried somewhere.
There was private right-of-way involved, though. Notably, the line made a little jog as it headed south at about 84th and New Utrechct. The jog was east then south. As of the last time I looked ('70s?) you could still clearly see where this was.
Read the article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 - 1913 for your next class. Then come prepared to discuss whether the Meigs elevated railway concept would have been a good alternative for the oynton Bicycle Railway :)
--Mark
Read the article Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 - 1913 for your next class. Then come prepared to discuss whether the Meigs elevated railway concept would have been a good alternative for the Boynton Bicycle Railway :)
--Mark
He hit the shot. Give hm the credit, man. Its 1/10 of a sewcond, jeez!!!!!
Terps are in the peach bowl? Who are they playing?
They recieved names a long time ago, it became popular and stuck around. Lots of people don't really use the full names like before but us railfans & oldtimers still use it.
Culver -->F
Sea Beach--> N
Brighton -->Q
West End -->W
"Lots of people don't really use the full names like before but us railfans & oldtimers still use it."
Also, here on Subtalk, if you're posting a suggestion for a change, you would say "Send the J onto the Brighton Line." It would be pretty confusing to say "Send the J onto the Q line."
This is most necessary for the 4 South Brooklyn lines, which all normally have the same terminus. You can say "Send the C to Lefferts" and be understood but "Send the J to Coney Island" is ambiguous.
I know, people would be like WTF, huh?! :-o?. You can't say send the 2 on the 4 doing that with the IRT would be FAR worse any would be so confusing. On this board, its a 'unwritten rule' to include the names of the line(s) that the posters talk about.
In honor of the first snow of the year, I figured I'd share a pic I took today from Mosholu Tower...
http://www.geocities.com/goumba_tony/Img_0323.jpg
DUDE! YOU RULE! I LOVE YOU! WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU! (yes, I am shouting)
--Brian
DUDE! YOU RULE! I LOVE YOU! WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU! (yes, I am shouting)
--Brian
Wow. My first double post. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. I really HATE when other people do this...and now I've done it. I'm so ashamed.
I'm sure SOMEONE is going to wake up with a headache today.... :)
What kinda sucks is that to prevent the train operator from flipping out thinking I was trying to catch him at something I stood by the door (as well as to block the wind) and the train is a bit off center.
You don't know how this was killing me either... it seemed like all day there were no Redbirds passing, then around 10-11-ish one passes going to Woodlawn and as he was leaving Mosolu the yard dispatcher hands me a move to make (and the track was ready so it had to be done right then)! Argh! I had a few opportunities to get 143s but I was more concerned with getting a Redbird.
It was worth the wait!
I would have liked to see a picture of an R143 running there. I know you meant R142A.
Yeah, I'm still not used to the A division yet. Sorry. I thought of it a few hours after I posted and meant to post a corection and just plain forgot.
Tony,
Awsome shot! Thanks...
Marc
I'm trying to find a font similar to each of the following:
- the lettering on the tiles in the original City Hall station
- the old rollsigns
The name of the fonts are good enough if anyone can provide me with that much. Thanks.
Lotsa photos!
Who's da man???? Who's da man???? YOU ARE!!!! OMG!!!!
Ok, maybe i had just al ittle too much to drink
David - What a brilliant set of pictures.
OH SHIT!!! Thats snow!!!
I'm from Philly and could you tell me where that shot was taken? I can't even hazard a guess.
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
Smith/9th in Brooklyn, HERE'S a shot from an earlier time, when the weather was clear.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh my favorite line, with the Ronan Painted R-10s.
Thanks, ;-) Sparky
ANDY,
Steve B is going to retch, when he see this picture of his beloved
"Thunderbirds". Attendant, give him a barf bag, please. >G<
;-) Sparky
That's OK. I know the R-10s ran on the GG, although I personally never saw them there.
You can't help but noticing the Twin Towers. I enlarged a few New York photos I've taken over the years for one of our security folks, and one of them was a pic of the Twin Towers taken from Ellis Island in 1990.
Steve,
I rode the "Thunderbirds" and appreciated them on the >GG<,
but the ones I remember carried the Hunter Green Paint scheme,
my reference was to the paint on the cars in the picture.
No punt intended to location or background of the photo.
It was that GAWD awful horrid "tagged" painting of those cars,
that nauseated me. Yet, the Blue & Gray "Civil War" paint still
adorns the Metro North 1100, ex NYC 4500 MUs and they are handsome
after forty plus years of service. >IMO<
Also, when the green R-10s came over to the >GG< and the route
and destination curtains were replaced, a hint of things to come
was included. The destinations for the >GG< included Court Square.
And that was when?
;-) Sparky
The graffiti made all subway cars look repulsive.
Of course, my favorite R-10 paint scheme was the teal-and-white racing stripe job they sported in the late 60s. Too bad they didn't keep it for very long.
David, looks like you were busy yesterday! Great shots! Thanks for sharing.
David,
Ditto on Chris comments. Glad someone had the time to capture
one of those "New York" moments on film.
We traversed Brooklyn for a medical appointment in the snow.
RTS #8000, garaged at the "pond", and assigned to the B-48 had no traction at all. [It sucked]. Soutbound on the B-44 limited was expeditious till Empire Boulevard, where Limited Service was suspended. The return wasn't that bad on the B-44 Northbound,
under the prevailing conditions. Waiting for the B-48 later,
it was amazing to see the frequency of the B-110 Bus with their
Orions. Much better service, then the TA going your way.
I know, this should be posted on BusTalk, but what you want from
a "Streetcar" guy. I wish I could turn the clock back for
yesterday was a day for "Brooklyn's" 19th Century Sweepers
and the convertibles downgraded to salt cars to "Do Their Thing".
;-) Sparky
Nice shots, David... even though I HATE SNOW!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me too, I got sent home from work early (no problem-we got paid), and snowblew and shoveled the driveway. Me thinks this is going to be the "winter of discontent".
I should have guessed the photo was Smith-9th ,because of the height and NYC in the background. Anyway, thanks , Andee.
Chuck Greene
Wow, that #1 train coming around the curve is beautiful. It's definitely going on my computer desktop. Thanks for the nice pics.
Boy do I wish I was there, camcorder in hand .... great shots!
--Mark
Thanks for the compliments, everyone. (For those who didn't realize it, that image is a link to many more photos.)
Some comments (and questions):
Entering at 86th, I scanned the MetroCard discard pile, as usual, and found a "Why run" MetroCard, a Zagat-Balthazar MetroCard, and -- get this -- an expired London Transport Visitor Travelcard.
I was hoping to get some photos of the L at Broadway Junction, but the snow was blowing and I didn't want to get the camera wet. At Atlantic there were a few moments when the wind died down but I didn't get much there either.
The A was mostly R-44's -- I only saw two R-38 sets (and no R-32's). I hadn't planned on riding all the way to the last stop, but the Flats were so serene I couldn't bring myself to get off. A talkative TSS was at the controls, and the train handled remarkably well given the conditions -- he got up to 45 coming into Broad Channel and had no difficulty stopping right at the marker. Reduced visibility was the only problem. The subway is indeed a great way to get around on a snowy day!
Is there really a one-shot timer on the NB A at the south end of the North Channel Bridge? Why?
What's the deal with the permanent "crossover" signage on the closed platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn?
Great pictures David -- thanks for posting.
CG
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Passenger-rail advocates, state transportation officials, rail suppliers, the United Transportation Union and even the freight railroad industry continue to struggle with a four-point program to stabilize, strengthen and eventually expand the nation’s skeletal network of intercity passenger trains, with plans to release a final platform later this week.
Meeting November 15 at the invitation of the Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition and the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission, the 37 conferees – representing organizations from New England to Texas – took a full day of discussion before hammering out the four principles. Once agreed upon, they hope they will soon be formalized in Congressional legislation.
“We wanted to make sure that Congress is faced with a unified movement that agrees on a simple set of principles,” said Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition Executive Director Rick Harnish.
“When any state government, or city, or interest group goes to his congressman and says, “Here’s what we want,” we want every congressman to hear the same message. When diverse interest groups coalesce around a uniform message, they gain credibility with legislators.”
The four essentials most advocates say must be in the next transportation funding bill:
A dedicated, multi-year capital-funding program for intercity passenger rail patterned after the existing federal highway, airport and mass-transit funding programs.
Creation or designation of a specific agency within the U.S. DOT devoted exclusively to overseeing the funding, management and policy development of a national passenger-rail system. This agency would function like the Federal Highway Administration, the Federal Aviation Administration, the Federal Transit Administration, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which builds and maintains the nation’s inland waterways.
Preservation of the current nationwide interconnected passenger rail system and its improvement and expansion.
Full funding of Amtrak so that it can effectively manage, market and operate the national passenger rail system, and new policy oversight with new goals and incentives to more effectively define Amtrak’s mission and ensure higher levels of efficiency, innovation and responsiveness.
“I think this is the absolute minimum that every organization promoting passenger-rail development must embrace,” said United Transportation Union Illinois Legislative Director Joseph C. Szabo, who was asked by UTU International President Byron Boyd, Jr., to attend the conference. He will submit his observations to Boyd for review.
“Obviously,” Szabo said, “each organization will have its own specific demands and agendas regarding passenger rail. Certainly our union does. Certainly the individual states do, but everyone in the room immediately agreed to set aside his or her pet projects and causes in order to develop a simple set of principles and objectives that all of us can support equally before Congress. Congress doesn’t like to sort out a lot of controversial issues from contending groups. It acts only when presented with a clear set of goals, and that’s what the Chicago meeting developed.”
In addition to Szabo, those present at the meeting included the passenger-rail officials of the state departments of transportation in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota; Jim RePass, President & CEO of the National Corridors Initiative; Ross Capon, Executive Director of the Washington-based National Association of Railroad Passengers; J. Anne Chettle, Manager of Congressional Affairs at the Association of American Railroads; former Deputy FRA Donald M. Itzkoff; Kevin Brubaker, High Speed Rail Project Manager for the Environmental Law & Policy Center; Michael Moss, legislative assistant to Illinois Gov.-Elect Rod Blagojevich; Scott Bernstein, President of the Center for Neighborhood Technology in Chicago; and James E. Coston, a Chicago attorney and member of the Amtrak Reform Council. Amtrak Reform Council Chairman and former FRA Gilbert E. Carmichael participated by speakerphone.
RePass commented: “Rick Harnish has done a great thing by gathering together a representative group of rail advocates from all over the country. That’s the kind of leadership we need. I hope that the basic principles under discussion can indeed be adopted, at least by a majority of us gathered in Chicago.
“I believe we now have the basis for an effective passenger-rail funding package that we and our other allies can present to the next session of Congress,” Harnish said. “When rail advocates approach Congress, we will now be speaking with one voice. That has never happened before.”
Harnish said the conferees deliberately refrained from specifying a funding source in their four-point program because “that’s not our job.”
“Congress does not like outsiders telling it how to raise money for new initiatives,” he said. “Legislators prefer to be sold on a program. After they accept it as something the nation needs, they reserve to themselves the job of developing a funding mechanism.”
Szabo agreed, saying, “It’s O.K for rail advocates to debate how rail should be funded, and we do it all the time. Some people say add a penny to the federal motor-fuel tax and use that to fund rail. Some say use the 4.3-cents-a-gallon tax the railroads already pay on diesel fuel. Some say let intercity rail have a share of transit funding.
“It is not our role to tell Congress where to find the money,” he said.
“Congressmen like to do that themselves. What they expect us advocates to do is present a coherent and doable picture of what a modern U.S. passenger rail system ought to look like, and that’s what we advocates have done with the so-called ‘Chicago Agreement.’ I think we’re off to a good start.”
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Capital Properties, Inc. said on November 25 that it had won a court battle with Amtrak, but they don’t know yet if Amtrak will appeal the judge’s decision. Amtrak said its lawyers were mulling over what to do.
In U.S. District Court for Rhode Island, both entities claimed they were right, but “after a trial on the merits, the court awarded the firm about $1.48 million in additional damages in connection with condemnation proceedings” brought by the National Railroad Passenger Corporation – Amtrak – “with respect to certain land and air rights owned by the company in the Capital Center district in Providence.”
A press release stated “Amtrak had previously paid the company approximately $1,250,000,” but Capital Properties lawyers argued that amount was not enough.
The condemned land includes air rights over the railroad corridor and the land immediately adjacent to the five-track railroad right-of-way, between the station and Orms Street overhead bridge.
In its latest 10-QSB filing, Capital Resources said the dispute concerns 1.9 acres of air rights over Amtrak's Northeast Corridor that Capital Properties received during the 1980s. With that agreement, the company built a parking garage adjacent to Providence station.
Over the years, Amtrak assumed the cost of electricity provided to the parking garage; but in 1997, Amtrak refused to pay for the electricity, Capital Resources said. The company then filed suit seeking an order requiring Amtrak to remove its facilities from the parking garage property, Dow-Jones Newswires reported.
The company later amended its suit to include a claim that Amtrak erected towers and a signal bridge within the air rights in 1998.
Over the years, Amtrak condemned certain air rights and property and compensated the company for what it believed was just compensation.
The court's judgment will bear interest until paid in full, Capital Properties stated.
Company president Ronald P. Chrzanowski, said, “We are pleased with the court’s decision. However, at this time we do not know whether Amtrak intends to appeal.” He said if Amtrak does appeal, he would go back to court.
“We can provide no assurance as to if and when the judgment might be paid, he added.
Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black, in Washington, told D:F “Amtrak is reviewing the decision and considering our options.”
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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New York State’s Pataki administration officials are accusing Amtrak of delaying projects and demanding too much money from the state.
Among the consequences of Amtrak’s financial difficulties, both sides suggest, is that while New York State has invested more than $100 million in high-speed trains linking New York City, Albany and Buffalo, the trains may never be used, according to The New York Times.
The dispute has festered for months in private negotiations with New York and other states, as Amtrak has insisted on more money from the states, which face their own financial difficulties.
Joseph H. Boardman, New York’s transportation commissioner made the tussle public by releasing a letter he wrote to Amtrak a fortnight ago. He charged that Amtrak reneged on promises, delayed the high-speed trains, made unreasonable financial demands and threatened to keep the new trains out of service in order to wring more money from the state.
Amtrak declined to answer the criticism immediately.
“We intend to respond to Commissioner Boardman in due course,” said Cliff Black, an Amtrak spokesman, but, he added, “Amtrak’s financial position has become much more precarious.”
In a Times interview, Boardman said that much of his grievance was really with the federal government, which, he said, must come up with more money to keep Amtrak afloat. The government created the railroad, whose board is appointed by the president and Congressional leaders.
“We need the federal government – the administration, the Senate and the House – to sit in the room from here forward when we sit down with Amtrak, to be involved in fixing the intercity rail problem in this country,” Boardman said.
Congress and the White House bailed out airlines last year, he said, and should do the same for Amtrak.
Speaking on the condition of anonymity, Amtrak officials agreed, but refused to say anything for the record that could be construed as critical of their federal benefactors.
Phone calls left with the USDOT for comment were not returned, according to the Times.
The railroad has asked Congress to raise its regular annual subsidy to $1.2 billion from $521 million, but so far, the House and Senate have been unable to agree on a figure.
The most immediate threat from Amtrak’s troubles is to its passengers, including 40,000 daily on the Northeast Corridor, linking Washington, New York and Boston; and 3,000 daily on the Empire Corridor, linking New York City, Albany and Buffalo.
The Pataki administration fears much broader ripple effects for the New York metropolitan region. Amtrak owns some of the tracks, tunnels, stations and rail yards that stitch together the region’s rail network, and are heavily used by the Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North Railroad and New Jersey Transit. Even a partial shutdown of the national railroad could hurt the ability of those regional railroads to keep serving 300,000 commuters a day.
Boardman said he had broached the possibility of the state’s buying or otherwise taking over some of those assets, “but Amtrak is not willing to discuss it.”
Under an agreement with Amtrak, New York State is paying to rebuild seven Turboliner trains for the Empire Corridor to make them faster. Amtrak, in turn, was to make improvements to that route to allow higher speeds, like eliminating grade crossings and straightening curves. Taken together, their work was supposed to raise top speeds to 125 from 79 miles per hour, cutting the time from New York City to Albany by about 40 minutes to less than two hours.
State officials say that while they have invested more than $100 million in the project, Amtrak, which promised to spend a similar amount, has not spent a cent.
While New York is supposed to own the trains, Amtrak is managing the project and dealing with the manufacturer, Super Steel, based near Schenectady. Until Amtrak declares the trains ready, the state cannot take possession (See D:F, November 25).
Boardman said Amtrak had delayed the project, which is well behind schedule, with frequent changes in specifications. He also accused the railroad of inventing reasons to find fault with the first train, which is completed, so that it cannot be put in service or transferred to state ownership. In short, he said, Amtrak is using the threat not to deliver the trains as leverage to wrest more money out of the state.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Amtrak and Indiana’s DOT are recommending bringing a high-speed rail line between Cleveland and Chicago through Fort Wayne. The recommendation came a fortnight ago after a year of study, according to The AP.
Officials said they chose a Fort Wayne route over South Bend because it would be less expensive and provide more passengers. The $1 billion passenger rail plan still needs Congressional and state approval, which may have been hindered by a lackluster national economy.
The Fort Wayne News-Sentinel reported on November 22 that if a high-speed Amtrak passenger rail service project ever gets federal funding, Fort Wayne should be on its route.
The DOT, Amtrak and the Ohio Railroad Development Commission recently released results of a year-long study examining alternative high-speed rail passenger routes across northern Indiana, between Chicago and Cleveland.
The study favored a route through Fort Wayne over a route through South Bend, but suggested improvements for South Bend’s passenger rail service to Chicago. The new service would contribute to economic development in the region and throughout the state, said Mayor Graham Richard.
Some areas of the country that have high-speed rail service already have seen economic benefits, including its use for rapid parcel delivery by businesses such as UPS, he said.
The high-speed train could travel up to 110 mph, compared with a current maximum of 79 mph. A trip between Fort Wayne and Chicago would take between 105 minutes and 115 minutes, depending on the number of stops.
Indiana is part of the nine-state Midwest Regional Rail Initiative that envisions spending $5 billion on 3,000 miles of track for high-speed passenger trains. Chicago would be the regional hub for the new service.
The federal government would cover 80 percent of the project’s cost, but with the national economy and federal budget in their current shape, it could be awhile before funding becomes available.
Tom Beck, a rail planner for Indiana DOT, estimated lines for the service could be built in three or four years, but he said it probably would take seven to 10 years of preliminary work before construction could begin, after funding comes through.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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The South Carolina Transportation Commission almost doubled its financial commitment to high-speed passenger rail development on November 21, but the state remains far behind North Carolina and Virginia, reports greenvilleonline.com from its capitol bureau in Columbia.
South Carolina’s lines would be linked to those states.
On the recommendation of Commissioner Howell Clyborne of Greenville, the commission added $2 million to the $2.6 million already budgeted for rail development.
“Not only will this increased effort help meet the challenges presented by the new air quality standards, but it will help us deliver the transportation choices that South Carolina citizens are asking for,” Clyborne said.
The $2 million, which would be drawn from additional federal funds that become available, would be used for rail-related activities such as planning, rights-of-way acquisition and corridor improvements, Clyborne said.
In a presentation to the Transportation Commission, state rail coordinator Bill McIlwain said that North Carolina’s commitment of $61 million and 66 employees makes that state’s passenger rail development the “premier” program in the nation. North Carolina operates passenger rail service between Charlotte and Rocky Mount.
The Associated Press reported earlier this month that the federal government has approved preliminary plans jointly submitted by North Carolina and Virginia for a high-speed rail corridor running from Washington, D.C., through Richmond, Va., to Charlotte. Those states can now begin engineering and environmental studies necessary to draw half of the $3 billion cost from the USDOT.
A study has shown that the Virginia-North Carolina high-speed rail link is the only one of five designated by the U.S. DOT as feasible routes that might pay its operating costs from passenger fares.
The route is expected to allow trains to average 85-90 miles per hour, with top speeds as high as 110 miles per hour, rather than the current 45 mph average for passenger trains in the region. Such speeds would allow trains to compete with airlines and cars on trips of 300 miles or less, studies have shown.
Virginia, which has established a rail and mass transit division separate from its highway department, plans to sell $67.3 million in bonds to help finance the new high-speed rail corridor, McIlwain said.
Clyborne and other South Carolina leaders hope to see high-speed trains link up with the North Carolina-Virginia corridor in Charlotte and continue through Columbia and Greenville, with lines continuing to Atlanta, Jacksonville and Birmingham.
Even with the additional money, South Carolina’s funding for passenger rail service remains the lowest in the region, behind $5.1 million in Georgia, $9.1 million in Tennessee, $53.9 million in Alabama, $61 million in North Carolina and $86 million in Virginia.
“We’re low on that totem pole,” joked Commissioner Bayles Mack of Fort Mill.
“I don’t believe we’re even on the totem pole,” shot back Clyborne.
“North Carolina has definitely put the hammer down. Air quality is already a major issue that could stifle future economic growth in the Upstate,” Clyborne said.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has the Piedmont’s industrial corridor on a watch list of regions that could come under industrial development restrictions if air quality continues to worsen.
“If we end up in non-attainment status, the EPA is going to be looking for ways we intend to deal with that. Rail is one way to deal with the problem,” he said.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Two independent studies of the financial viability of a high-speed rail link between Tampa and Orlando conclude the fares paid by riders alone would cover the cost of operating and maintaining the system.
The results of the studies, released November 20 by the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, gave supporters of the controversial transportation system a boost.
“The study shows we have a very, very viable project between Tampa and Orlando,” said C.C. “Doc” Dockery, who put $2.7-million of his own money into a campaign to pass the high-speed rail amendment to the state Constitution in 2000.
“We’ve got to get funding, then we’ve got to get approval from the (Federal Railroad Administration), and then we’ve got to build it,” Dockery said. “We’ll get there. I’m going to try to stay healthy until I can take my first ride,” the St Petersburg Times reported.
Even if the optimistic ridership figures are accurate, the project’s biggest hurdle remains funding. Proponents hope for an amalgam of federal, state and private money that doesn’t saddle Florida taxpayers with underwriting the rail system forever – but the availability of state funds is uncertain, particularly in the aftermath of voter approval earlier this month for the expensive class size measure, another constitutional amendment.
The ridership report, put together as a guide for potential contractors, does not include the rail link between Tampa and St. Petersburg. That project is being treated separately because there are so many problems associated with getting the rail line from the east side of Tampa to the West Shore area and then across Tampa Bay to Pinellas County.
Excluding commuters, the ridership study calculated that travel between Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando in 2010 would be around 50-million trips a year, according to a summary of the study sent to High Speed Rail Authority members. Of those, somewhere between 15.6-million and 16.2-million trips potentially might be captured by a high-speed rail system.
This base ridership would generate between $26-million and $36-million a year, enough to cover operations and maintenance. It does not include such ancillary sources of income as concessions, parking, express parcel service, naming rights and advertising.
The authority could generate an additional 530,000 riders and $33 million in revenue a year if Disney and businesses along the International Drive corridor in Orlando agree to use the rail system to take their customers to and from the Orlando airport.
“I can’t tell you that the results of these studies make it clear that high-speed rail is financially viable in Florida,” said Nazih Haddad, staff director of the rail authority. “It only shows that ridership could cover operations and maintenance. Financing of construction and the purchase of (trains) are not included.”
Dockery said that two consortiums of contractors have expressed an interest in the project. Asked if it wouldn’t be better to have more, he said, “It costs about $2 million to put a bid together. That’s a big chunk of change to put into a project that isn’t even funded yet.”
AECom Technology Corp., and Wilbur Smith Associates, international consultants that specialize in engineering transportation systems did the ridership studies.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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As communities throughout the nation explore rail transit options, the issue of high-density vs. low-density development is taking on higher profile status in the arena of public debate. Two reports just released point up the tradeoffs.
“Measuring Sprawl and its Impact,” a three-year research project conducted by professors and Rutgers and Cornell Universities, finds that areas with more sprawl have higher traffic fatality rates, more traffic and poorer air quality.
However, another study says there are side effects involved in some of the so-called “smart growth” methods used to contain sprawl.
“Smart Growth and Its Effects on Housing Markets: The New Segregation,” issued by a think tank, The National Center for Public Policy Research (NCPPR), argues that “smart growth” policies aimed at imposing tight curbs on low-density development are disproportionately hurting minorities and folks at the lower end of the economic chain.
Taken side-by-side, the two reports do not contradict each other. They are not mutually exclusive. What it comes down to is which concerns are to be given more weight – an individual and perhaps subjective judgment.
The Rutgers-Cornell study, as reported in the transit industry (APTA) trade publication Passenger Transport, finds that the daily distance driven per person is more than 10 miles more in the most sprawling places than in the least sprawling communities, or 40 more miles of driving each day for a family of four.
The most sprawling areas average 36 traffic deaths for every 100,000 people as opposed to 23 deaths per 100,000 in higher density developed communities.
Higher density, say the professors, means lower ozone pollution levels.
Furthermore, they charge, sprawl fails in the one benefit its defenders often attribute to it: lower congestion. Ergo, simply laying out more concrete for another highway won’t eliminate intolerable traffic jams.
On the other hand, the NCPPR argues, in effect, that trying to force everyone into a pill box above a subway stop is not necessarily the way to go either. In fact, it can lead to a form of “economic segregation.” The sponsors of the study add that “smart growth” policies are not having the desired environmental benefits that are claimed for them.
Based on a study of a “smart growth” policies in Portland, Oregon, hailed as a national model, the study tried to determine what the impact would be if the entire country had adopted the Portland regimen.
The finding: If these policies had been implemented ten years ago, 260,000 minority families “who are currently homeowners in the U.S. would not own their own homes today,” according to NCPPR President Amy Ridenour. Further, she said, “a total of a million families who currently enjoy their own homes wouldn’t be doing so today.” That, in her opinion, is “morally wrong.”
NCPPR Executive Director David Amalsi said “smart growth” programs should be checked so that they don’t “inappropriately affect poor minority communities or the general population.”
If the governments want to save open space, he reasons, government can always buy the land, but the right tell people who own or want to own property what they can and cannot do with that property should be off limits.
At the same time, the report by the professors argues that “people in sprawling areas endure no less traffic-related delay than those in more compact places, but have fewer alternatives in travel routes and modes (Read they’re less likely to have the mass transit option).”
Declaring that the Bush administration is committed to supporting smart growth “in every way that we can,” EPA Administrator Christie Whitman told Cybercast News Service (http://www.cnsnews.com) that the way to deal with minority housing is through affordable housing programs that can be incorporated into “smart growth.”
Ridenour rejects that, telling CNS, “I doubt the Bush administration has even realized that the poor minorities are the most disproportionately negatively affected by smart growth.”
As we said at the outset, the reports do not contradict each other as far as basic research is concerned.
What it comes down to is a matter of trade-offs. The second issue involved is to what extent should freedom of choice play a role? Thirdly, can we have sensible development that encourages mass transit, and at the same time, allows people the choice of the “American dream” of the house, the lawn, Mom and Dad with their kids, complete with a dog named Spot?
Both studies present facts and figures. The reader is left to balance things out according to individual values in a number of areas. For example: personal choice, government fiat, or a carefully blended combination of the two.
The Spot comment reflects possibly the only negative to public transportation--you can't bring your pooch to the vet by bus, light rail or subway!!
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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It all began some two years ago, but the Santa Fe Drive Corridor in Denver trolley line eventually replaced a bus route.
We recently learned through the online pages of Light Rail Progress – at http://www.lightrailnow.org – that the changes came about on traffic congestion in a major corridor.
Bus ridership in the Santa Fe Drive corridor was about 2,000 daily passengers before the Southwest light rail transit (LRT) line opened. Since the Southwest Line opened in July 2000, LRT replaced bus service in the corridor, with bus feeder service interfacing with the LRT at stations. In October 2000, covered by the period of the RTD study, LRT ridership averaged over 13,000 riders per day.
Denver Regional Transportation District data, from the fall of 2000, focused on traffic flow on a section of Denver’s Santa Fe Drive (north of Mississippi), a signaled, six-lane major artery parallels the Southwest LRT line to Littleton on a separate, exclusive railroad right-of-way. The roadway is three-lanes wide, eventually narrowing to two lanes.
The Southwest LRT line runs in a separate, exclusive alignment along an existing railroad right-of-way, through industrial areas, and past residential developments which range from lower-density urban housing to suburban housing. In the peak hours during the RTD study period, eight trains per hour at six two-car trains and two three-car trains ran the route, for a total of 18 cars per hour.
According to data from the Colorado DOT, peak hour, peak-direction roadway traffic volume on the section of Santa Fe studied is approximately 4,500 motor vehicles, of which about 7 percent are trucks.
The automobile count is about 4,180 vehicles. With average auto occupancy of 1.2 persons per car, the number of persons traveling by automobile is approximately 5,020.
RTD tabulates the number of peak hour, peak-direction LRT passengers at 2,000 to 2,500. Light Rail Progress calculates that total peak hour, peak-direction person-movement in the corridor ranges between 7,020 and 7,520. Of this, the percentage (modal split) traveling by LRT ranges between 28.5 percent and 33.2 percent – a significant proportion of total passenger traffic.
Put another way, if these riders chose to make their trip by automobile instead, they would further congest those three lanes of Santa Fe Drive with between 1,670 and 2,080 additional automobiles during this peak hour. Thus, LRT can be said to provide a significant amount of “congestion relief” in this case.
LRT critics and opponents consistently try to pose “reduction” of roadway traffic as a basic measuring stick for the “success” of LRT – a measure it will inevitably fail to meet.
In reality, by raising (unachievable) expectations of significant roadway congestion reduction from LRT and other major transit projects, transit and LRT opponents exploit a common fallacy and misconception: That any single transportation facility, roadway or transit, can ever truly “reduce” congestion.
It is almost universally recognized, even among highway planners, and throughout the transportation planning profession, that roadway traffic congestion is a fundamental fact of life – basically, it continues to grow with population expansion and the proliferation of motor vehicles. Acceptance of some degree of congestion is actually incorporated into the basic design of urban roadways.
For these reasons, bona fide congestion relief provided by LRT and other major transit services cannot be expected to take the form of significant reductions in road traffic. Instead, relief is far more likely to take the form illustrated in Denver – diversion of significant traffic growth into high-quality transit service in specific corridors. (We have no specific information one way or the other of any fluctuation in motor vehicle volumes on Santa Fe Drive.)
It is either an error or a deception to try to assess congestion relief by the measure of whether or not existing congestion simply evaporates. Congestion never just “evaporates.” The traffic lanes on Santa Fe Drive are probably as crowded as ever (particularly because of ongoing population and traffic growth throughout the metro area). What LRT does is to open up, in effect, a new “traffic artery” along which people can move past the existing congestion. Moreover, unlike the capacity-increasing effects of a freeway, the result with LRT is that all those cars are off the road, out of the traffic stream, and out of the competition for scarce parking spaces. Perhaps the realistic goal of major transit improvements like LRT, therefore, is to relieve mobility congestion, and not necessarily traffic congestion.
Denver’s data suggests that LRT – at peak hour in the peak direction in the target corridor – is carrying between 28 percent and 33 percent of the total passenger traffic flow. In other words, without the LRT line in service, approximately 30 percent of corridor passenger traffic would be added to the roadway congestion. Light Rail Progress stated, “We believe this demonstrates that LRT can have a significant impact on corridor traffic congestion.”
These results have significance for other communities evaluating LRT and other mobility improvements. The public might well consider whether they would rather have an additional 30 percent (or other percentage) of motorists on crowded streets, contesting for scarce space. Expanding the roadway arterial to accommodate this extra traffic in Denver’s case would mean adding at least 4 to 6 more lanes to Santa Fe Drive – an extremely expensive proposition, with very costly inner-city right-of-way acquisition as well as construction. That does not include additional parking spaces for thousands of additional cars.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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A Boston-based consortium that includes a former Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority general manager has emerged as the front-runner to operate the MBTA’s commuter rail service, agency officials and rail specialists say, in a move that could establish it as an eventual private-sector competitor to Amtrak.
The Boston Globe reported Saturday (November 30) the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Rail Co., made up of European rail powerhouse Connex, Canada’s Bombardier of North America, and a Boston transportation consulting firm headed by former MBTA general manager James F. O’Leary, is expected to get the T’s nod in coming weeks, according to MBTA officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The so-called MassBay conglomerate has become the frontrunner somewhat by default, they said: It has far more experience, money, and worldwide clout to run the nation’s fourth largest commuter rail operation than Billerica’s Guilford Rail Systems.
With three bidders, the competition was considered close, but last week’s disqualification of Bay State Transit Services, a consortium of British rail giant Stagecoach Group and Herzog Transit Services of St. Joseph, Mo., for submitting an incomplete proposal leaves the T with two very distinct bidders.
Guilford, a privately held firm, has, according to railroad analysts, a poor reputation and a checkered history running commuter rail for the T, and has thus far failed to make any overtures to organized labor, a crucial step in making itself a viable candidate. In 1986 the firm was released from its MBTA contract following a turbulent three-month rail strike that, at times, stranded thousands of commuter rail riders.
The fight to replace Amtrak as operator of the T’s commuter rail service, with its 140,000 commuters per weekday the largest passenger rail contract to be put out to bid in the country, has been one of the most hotly contested rail battles in recent history. Amtrak CEO David Gunn said Amtrak would not rebid the job because of too many onerous contract clauses.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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A Connecticut task force is considering proposals that Connecticut spend nearly $250 million in the next few years on new commuter rail cars and locomotives and some $3 billion by 2020 to upgrade all rail facilities.
Connecticut’s Transportation Strategy Board also voiced support November 19 for creating a new commuter rail line that would run from New Haven to Hartford and Springfield, reports the New Haven Register.
The funding estimates and New Haven-to-Springfield commuter line proposal are included in draft recommendations being considered by the task force.
The panel must vote by December 15 on its final recommendations for resolving Connecticut transportation gridlock problems.
However, R. Nelson ‘Oz’ Griebel, chairman of the strategy board, said a critical factor in the panel’s final report would concern the timing of any state spending. Griebel said, “no one in their wildest imaginations” expects the board to call for $3 billion in immediate state spending on rail improvements.”
One reason Griebel and other members of the strategy board may be nervous about such cost figures is that Connecticut is now facing its worst budget crisis in more than a decade. Lawmakers are now beginning to look for ways to solve a current fiscal year deficit estimated at $500 million and a projected two-year budget gap of $1.5 billion.
Griebel called the transportation cost numbers included with the draft recommendations “some ballpark estimates that need to be refined in the next couple of weeks.”
The cost estimates, made by experts at ConnDOT, provide an indication of the massive potential costs involved in trying to ease gridlock and congestion on Connecticut highways.
The draft recommendations are based on estimates that commuter ridership will grow by about 1.5 percent per year, for a 25 percent increase over 15 years.
Rehabilitation of the existing fleet of New Haven Line and Shore Line East and rail cars and locomotives is already planned, but the strategy board is expected to call for adding a significant number of new locomotives and cars in the next few years.
A draft recommendation calls for purchasing 12 electric locomotives and 40 coaches for the New Haven Line and eight locomotives and 24 coaches for Shore Line East (New Haven to Old Saybrook and New London) in the next few years. Those purchases would total $248 million, according to the DOT estimates.
The long-term costs of replacing cars and locomotives for those two lines could total $1.8 billion by 2020, state experts predict.
According to the draft report, parking should be expanded at every station along the New Haven Line from New Haven to the New York border and the cost of those improvements could total some $26 million.
The strategy board is also planning to voice support for the concept of creating a New Haven-Hartford-Springfield commuter rail line. Griebel said state transportation officials are currently studying how feasible such a line would be, and that report won’t be ready until June 2003.
Another concern voiced in the board’s draft report is what to do about financially troubled Amtrak, which owns the rail lines between New Haven and Rhode Island and New Haven and Springfield. Amtrak also has the contract to provide Shore Line East service in southeastern Connecticut.
The strategy panel is also asking that Connecticut push for voting representation on any governing board that is set up if New York goes ahead with its proposal to merge the Long Island Rail Road and Metro North Railroad.
One recommendation that won’t appear in the board’s final report involves proposals to help ease truck traffic on Interstate 95 and 84 by shifting more container freight shipments to railroad cars. Some lawmakers had hoped such a move could significantly cut the number of trucks using those crowded highways.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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It took a long time to get started, but the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority’s long-neglected Blue Line is undergoing a major transformation.
Over the next few years, the T will complete a top-to-bottom overhaul on the Blue Line that was first promised back when the other George Bush was president, writes the Boston Herald of November 24.
In all, the $740 million facelift will be the T’s second-largest capital outlay, behind the Silver Line and more expensive than highly publicized projects such as the Greenbush and Fall River-New Bedford commuter rail lines.
“I’ve never really thought of it in those terms… but you’re absolutely right,” said T general manager Mike Mulhern, who was a train attendant on the Blue Line in the early 1980s. “By the time we’re done, we’ll end up with a totally modernized system – one that will be in good shape for the next 30 to 50 years.”
The problems on the outdated 5.9-mile Blue Line haven’t changed much since Mulhern’s days there. Many stations are crumbling and lack handicapped access, and the cars often are jammed with passengers.
MBTA Blue Line chief Lisa Bono said taking the train to “Eastie” during peak hours is like traveling in “a can of sardines.”
“During rush hour, it’s rough,” she said.
Hence, the T’s priority was to go from four-car trains to six-car trains. In the process, however, it had to renovate the Blue Line’s stations to build platforms long enough to accommodate the new trains.
The overdue improvements mirror what was done at 10 Red Line and Orange Line stations in the mid-1980s. The Orange Line opened to six-car trains in December 1987; the Red Line followed suit four months later.
In all, the T will spend $205 million on 94 new subways cars and $417 million renovating 11 Blue Line stations (the 12th, Bowdoin, will be closed when the six-car trains debut in December 2004).
The Blue Line overhaul has been a long time in the making. It was originally slated to happen by the mid-1990s, but the T later committed to unveiling a new Blue Line by 1998 and then by 2001.
Opened in 1904, the Blue Line was once cutting-edge, featuring the first underwater subway tunnel in America… but it has been decades since any meaningful improvements were made. The last big expenditure was the purchase of the current car fleet in the mid-1970s, and everyone acknowledges the cars have aged faster thanks to the salty sea air along the shoreline route.
In all, the T will spend $205 million on 94 new subways cars and $417 million renovating 11 Blue Line stations (the 12th, Bowdoin, will be closed when the six-car trains debut in December 2004).
That statement appears to be a bit misleading. Aquarium station was completely rebuilt last year. A new Airport station is already under construction, and I believe the MBTA already extended the platforms at the four stations modernized in the mid-1990's (Wonderland, Revere Beach, Beachmont and Wood Island). Suffolk Downs is also fairly new, although I believe the platform is only four cars long. That leaves only four stations in true need of rebuilding (Government Center, State, Maverick and Orient Heights).
Jim D.
From this week's Destination Freedom, to be found at: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df12022002.shtml
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Kennedy Airport’s AirTrain won’t open on schedule.
The $1.9 billion service, intended to link the airport’s terminals to city subways, has been indefinitely postponed since a September derailment that killed a motorman.
The service had been scheduled to connect the airport terminals to each other and to Howard Beach in Queens by the end of the year, and expand by the middle of next year to the city’s Jamaica station, but the Port Authority of New York and Jersey and the train’s builders, a consortium led by Montreal-based Bombardier Transportation, have not resumed testing since the derailment and have scheduled no target date for a new opening, said agency spokesman Pasquale DiFulco.
“The priority is determining what happened,” DiFulco said last week. He said the agency was awaiting results of its own and a National Transportation Safety Board investigation.
Three cars went off the tracks on September 27 during a test run of the AirTrain after it went round a curve, killing 23-year-old Kelvin DeBourgh, authorities said.
NTSB spokeswoman Lauren Peduzzi said the train was traveling at 50 mph to 55 mph at the time, and her agency was investigating what role the speed played.
She also said concrete blocks located in the front and rear trains to approximate the weight of a full passenger load weren’t secure, and investigators were determining whether or not they shifted during the test run. The train operator was pinned by the blocks after the crash.
The NTSB has not been at the site since one week after the crash, and typically does not release final investigation reports for nine months to a year after an incident. Peduzzi said the agency has not advised the Port Authority or Bombardier to suspend AirTrain testing.
Port Authority officials have predicted that 34,000 people a day would use the 8.1-mile light rail system at Kennedy. That estimates is more than 10 times as great as the 3,000 people a day who are using the AirTrain linking Amtrak and New Jersey Transit riders to the monorail at Newark Liberty International Airport.
Transit advocates have said the light rail system is crucial to the economy at Kennedy, an airport notorious for difficult access to Manhattan.
A study last month by the Center for an Urban Future, a policy research group, found that Kennedy and LaGuardia have lost 10,000 jobs in airport-related businesses since September 11, a much greater percentage than hub airports in the rest of the country.
For shame, a new flying junction at the IND ROW near Howard Beach...what could have been.
Any estimates for constructions costs for such a spur line compared to this AirJunk system? I am sure it would be comparable. Heavy rail was the only way to go.
The PA wanted another cash cow all it itself, just like the EWK AirTrain. An I train connection would have meant people could get to the AirPort for a 1.50, most of which would not go to the PA.
At 3:30AM?!?
7121-25, replete with a coating of snow, are in the house!!! I love this stuff. This hound dog always thought Adventures Of The Apartment Window never failed him. Dang! He was right...
Thats why there was a power pack entering Linden Yard from the IRT on Thusday night. I guess that it was still go enought for the to do the transfer uptown. As for snow on the train, all the trains in Cansirs Yard were covered. I must have looked like a blizzed as I was moving down the tracks after leaving the yard.
Robert
7121-7125 were in Ridgewood a few days ago.
Yes, While I was shoveling snow from my driveway Thursday nite, I heard the freight train horn blowing as it passed Livonia Ave on their way to Linden Yard.
Yesterday while I was on the L, I was thinking about a What a T/O sould be singing in the Snow.
I hope you like it, it's only a start. If anyone whats to add on to it and if it's good I might get some other T/O to sing it and I try to tape it.
Here It goes.
"Dashing thought the Snow in the 8 car silver train. All the rail we go, sliding all the way. I hoping I stop this train. Here come that red Home Ball again, while sh–int in paints. Oh no there it goes. Dose anyone have a cup for me."
Robert
I just thought of what the choris shoud sound like.
Here I go again.
"M T A, M T A, M T A the only way to go. Oh, what fun it is to be working for the M T A. HA.
So there what I have so far.
"Dashing thought the Snow in the 8 car silver train. All the rail we go, sliding all the way. I hoping I stop this train. Here come that red Home Ball again, while sh–int in paints. Oh no there it goes. Dose anyone have a cup for me.
Choris.
M T A, M T A, M T A the only way to go. Oh, what fun it is to be working for the M T A. HA!"
Robert
I sorry that it's in three parts aready, but that how I have been coming up with the song. As for the first two part any idears are welcome.
After Choris.
Now I am on this platform. Frizzing my But off now, answering all the costumer questing. Most of them don't understand what I am trying saying, because that don't speak English. Oh I can't wait to be back on this train, operating once again. Oh what fun it is to be work all the day, with the M T A."
Repeat Choris.
Have fun.
Robert
Saw the pix of Smith/9th in the snow and was reminded:
Look at the bottom right, that's a electric train-stop installed in the middle of "Air" territory. Blasphemy!
Damit, and that's a prime photo location as well! I caught similar MTA narrowmindedness on the 7 near Shea Stadium.
Gack...what's next......US&S heads on top of GRS cases?!
Geez, Can you even DOOOO thaaaaat?
Isn't that like mixing acids and bases?
Evidently we will find out soon!
Oh, that. I hope proper Personal Protective Equipment is supplied in the form of lab coats,pocket protectors and welder's goggles.
I don't get it, really I do! What are you trying to say?
Some people have this liking for electro-pneumatic switch machines and stops. The TA is beginning to phase them out, and the picture is just visible proof of the "Pneumatic Apocalypse"
Some have criticized those of us who "bash Microsoft" for making a QWAPPY product because "we need to get with it" even though OUR understanding of rebooting a computer was something that was ONLY done after the firetrucks left and the computer basement had been pumped out, and the power was back on again. To those who decry the replacement of reliable, "life critical" systems with "cheap junk," I'd only offer that which is Windows. "It's a better experience." I'm all for plastic trippers running on NT. "Anything else is a dinosaur." :)
Um, I don’t quite understand this post:
–I absolutely agree that Microsoft has written nothing (ever!) that has the reliability to support anything that is life-critical. Even the various Unix/Linux flavors, although they are orders of magnitude more reliable, aren’t there yet.
However, what does this have to do with trip arms? I always wondered why switches, trip arms (even signals, sometimes it seems) were electro-pneumatic, instead of being purely electrical. To my mind, it seemed that this gave you two systems to fail rather than just one.
I saw one post that said that it was possible to get more power in a smaller space by using pneumatics (essentially, the power, compressed air, could be generated elsewhere). These days, though, with high-efficiency electric motors, I can appreciate that the equation might be different.
Can anyone tell me, in simple terms, why, today, electro-pneumatic is still better?
John
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. Why exactly is the MTA replacing them? What advantages do they have? I'm pretty sure NYCSubway doesn't cover this exact issue...
Apologies for confusing you - I was following up on another thought entirely - the "this is progress, get over it" from another thread at another time. The replacement of pneumatics with electricals and the death of position signals which functioned reliably for a long time with cheezy "knockoffs" of what once was is an argument similar to "Windows is the world, it's time we moved past unix" on the computer side of reality. I was going after a philosophical argument Mike and I had recently in an attempt to show that the same mindset applies here. Has nothing to do with signals and controls as far as where I was going with it ... "progress trudges on" was where I was going.
Can anyone tell me, in simple terms, why, today, electro-pneumatic is still better?
Air switches are MUCH faster than all-electric switch machines.
In the latter, the electric motor has to spin around a whole bunch
of times to make the switch go over. There is a friction clutch
so that if the switch points hit an obstacle, the motor doesn't
sit and burn. With A-10 machines, the movement is via a big-arse
piston which goes over very quickly. They have enough force
to dislodge most minor debris. A soda can in the points can
hang up an electric switch, causing "unavoidable delays". The
air switch will just crush that into shim stock. Of course
the down side is it will do the same to a finger.
Air stops can be made much smaller in the trackway. Look at one.
It takes up not even half of the width of the ditch. On the
other hand, the GRS electric stops take up the entire ditch.
The older ones were very deep and in many places in the IND the
stop mechanism has to be located outside of the trackway and
connected with remote rods.
OTOH, with pneumatic stuff, you have the considerable maintenance
overhead of the compressor houses and air distribution system,
freeze-ups, etc.
Also, you can operate a huge number of air machines at the same time. Large electric plants have to have enormous rectifiers and backup batteries, or sometimes there are "cascading" circuits in the switch control relays to ensure that the switches all throw in sequence, keeping the power consumption down.
Tower operators on other boards have posted unanimously that they would rather run an E/P plant than a straight electric. The E/P stuff is just easier to line routes on.
Air lines and compressors require maintenance, but so do the high power contacts controlling electric switches. Also, you haven't lived until you've filled the water up on an entire bank of lead-acid batteries. [two decks each the size of large picnic tables]
So there are pros and cons in either case. I'll dig up one of my old US&S books and see what other propaganda they have to offer.
But which sound is more railroadsy:
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-clank
or
TWOCK...tissssshhhhh.?
Aside from the advantages mentioned by Jeff H, it is silly for the MTA to invest in new old signaling. We all know that one of these decades the MTA is going to go to a cab signal based system without fixed wayside signals except at interlockings so buying new equipment that will just get throw away in a few years is stupid.
This of course only applies to the trip stops.
An interesting note along the same lines would be the resignalling of the northern end of the 8th ave line by GRS: retaining the A-10 machines from the original plants.
I posted a bunch of MNR photos from this past July:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/MNR
--Brian
Snowstorm report from #3 West End Jeff:
I took out a ruler last night and neasure the total snow accumulation from this storm and it measured six inches. Quite a big storm for this time of the season. It doesn't look like we'll be getting more any time soon. Everything appears to be up and running today.
#3 West End Jeff
Effective immediately, I will be removing myself from all groups, both real and electronic, that deal with public transportation.
Anybody wishing to contact me must route emails directly to robaking@hotmail.com
-Robert King
Bob,
Sorry to hear that.
Would we be prying to much if we were to inquire as to why you have decided to leave?
The V train is the subway system's prodigal son. Lightly used,
unpopular from its inception, the V has been the beneficiary of some
impressive measures nonetheless. Newer-type subway cars were lifted
from the F, leaving that line with some older stock. The 63rd Street
route is Crowded uptown F trains frequently see delays all the way
through midtown after V trains are dispatched from Second Avenue.
Cars were lifted from the G as well, snipping that line's trains to
four cars. The Crosstown's run in Queens is now truncated during most
weekday hours to make room for the V. The resulting inconveniences
have been well noted on this board and in the media.
The V was born of a certain necessity, though. The shared E/F
trackage was badly congested between Fifth Avenue and Forest Hills.
That bottleneck is now localized (puns aside) to east of 36th Street
in Queens. Also on the plus side, there's more service between Queens
and Manhattan now, and it creates a second Sixth Avenue option --
particularly important in the aftermath of the Manhattan Bridge
service changes. (Didn't the Queensbridge shuttle run infrequently?)
Yet riders were happier without the V train. The MTA has advertised
the V in papers. They advertised it over station P.A. systems for
months; if you recall, the daily annoucements were in the parlance of
some emergency reroute. So, people are well aware of the new service.
It's just that not many want to use it.
I think the V is worth salvaging in some form. I have some ideas,
which involve keeping the V, that will fix the problems I outlined
above. After the usual period of confusion, I think, most of us
riders would be happier than we are with the present routes or were
with the preceding ones.
1. Cut V train sets to 8 cars. Return 6-car consists to the G.
2. Make some service reductions and enhancements that will leave
overall service levels approximately the same.
a. Rush hours
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 63rd Street.
(V) Queens Blvd. Local via 53rd Street. Extended to 18th Avenue,
Brooklyn.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue.
(M) Brooklyn terminal is 95th Street.
b. Middays
(F) via 53rd Street.
(V) No service.
(Q) Extended to 21st Street-Queensbridge.
(G) Forest Hills to Smith-9th Sts.
(M) No Brooklyn service.
(N) Local in Brooklyn.
c. Evenings
(M) To 36th Street, Brooklyn, until 8 PM.
(N) Local in Brooklyn after 8 PM (7 PM towards Manhattan). Offically!
--Otherwise same as Middays.
c. Weekends
(F) via 53rd Street.
(Q) to Queensbridge.
(G) to Forest Hills.
d. Late nights
(Q) Queens Blvd. Local to Forest Hills via 63rd. Broadway Local via
Bridge.
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 53rd.
(E) Local via 53rd.
(G) Queens terminal is Queens Plaza on Forest Hills-bound local track.
Alt: Turn (G) around east of Queens Plaza. Not too hard at night,
right?
Alt: Shortline (E) or (F) at Queens Plaza. (Q) to 179 (a wholly
original idea) or Jamaica Center.
My Brooklyn rush hour changes ought to decrease delays at 36th
Street/4th Avenue, which are severe at that complex junction.
Is it technically and fiscally feasible? Is it any good?
-n.
The V is currently running with 8 cars. Did you mean reduce it to 6 cars?
First off, some ideas are good,others are bad:
BAD: You cannot just switch the F line midday to the 53rd st line while during rush hours, it goes via. 63rd St. You confuse people at 50th St in Manhattan and Roosevelt/Jackson Heights in finding out if they can transfer to the #6 at Lex Ave directly or use the Metrocard transfer and walk 3 blocks south from 63rd st to 60th st/Lexington. And even if the V is extended to 18th Ave, no trains can run express on a steady schedule from Jay to Church until NYCT installs a permanent interlocking system at Bergen Tower (due to the 1998 fire), only an interim system is being used.
BAD: M line has two terminals at two branches (95th on the R and you cannot have M trains relay at 36th st. this means than all other lines at 8 PM (W, N and R) must run local), might as well bring back the RJ (later RR service between 95th and Chambers) And if you want to lessen rush hour delays, why not bring the M back where it belongs in the first place: the Brighton Line (after completion of Stillwell terminal in 2004.)
GOOD?: Q to 179th St? I must admit it is a novel approach but more wasteful in resources so why not the F on 63rd st and the E on 53rd st both running to Jamaica.
First off, some ideas are good,others are bad:
BAD: You cannot just switch the F line midday to the 53rd st line while during rush hours, it goes via. 63rd St. You confuse people at 50th St in Manhattan and Roosevelt/Jackson Heights in finding out if they can transfer to the #6 at Lex Ave directly or use the Metrocard transfer and walk 3 blocks south from 63rd st to 60th st/Lexington. And even if the V is extended to 18th Ave, no trains can run express on a steady schedule from Jay to Church until NYCT installs a permanent interlocking system at Bergen Tower (due to the 1998 fire), only an interim system is being used.
BAD: M line has two terminals at two branches (95th on the R and you cannot have M trains relay at 36th st. this means than all other lines at 8 PM (W, N and R) must run local), might as well bring back the RJ (later RR service between 95th and Chambers) And if you want to lessen rush hour delays, why not bring the M back where it belongs in the first place: the Brighton Line (after completion of Stillwell terminal in 2004.)
GOOD?: Q to 179th St? I must admit it is a novel approach but more wasteful in resources so why not the F on 63rd st and the E on 53rd st both running to Jamaica.
But in short the V line was put in at the expense on G riders who now are accustomed sardine-like conditions on the 4 car sets. And when the Manhattan Bound V train is at Queens Plaza, any E train that pulls in must go no more than walking speed (3 to 5 mph). Why not have timer set on red outside QP and have the E wait there until the V leaves safely?
"V" is 100% R46 so they are ALREADY at 8-cars, perhaps you mean running 8-cars at 60-foot (meant: R32) OR this: run it to Eastern Division through the Chrystie/Essex connection (the route of the old "K"), and use Eastern Division cars.
wayne
What would serve 57/6 during non-rush hours?
CG
"Yet riders were happier without the V train."
Says who? Various newspapers and Straphangers interviewed people at express platforms only.
- F train riders have less crowding than before.
- V trains are half full, so someone actually rides them. All those people used to be on E and F trains.
- E train riders are no worse off than before.
-" F train riders have less crowding than before".
Maybe Queens-bound, but Brooklyn-bound F trains during the pm rush are more packed than ever.
"Maybe Queens-bound, but Brooklyn-bound F trains during the pm rush are more packed than ever."
That's got nothing to do with the V train. They haven't reduced the number of rush hour Brooklyn F trains.
The R-143 cars now going into service on the L have reduced the car shortage on the B division, so they could already increase the length of G trains without taking cars away from the V. Having the F run some of the time through 53 St, the rest of the time through 63 St would only confuse passengers. At least the present service is consistent. One thing they should do is stop running the V after about 10 PM (instead of Midnight) and only then start running the G to Forest Hills. I've seen nearly empty G, V and R trains backed up to Woodhaven Blvd at 9:30 PM. There's no need for that much local service at that time. In the future, when the R-160's go into service and the Bergen St tower is repaired, they could free up more cars and extend both the V and the G to Church Ave and have the F run express between Jay St and Church Ave.
>>"1. Cut V train sets to 8 cars."<<
The V has R46's, which ARE 8 car sets.
>>"2. Make some service reductions and enhancements that will leave
overall service levels approximately the same.
a. Rush hours
(F) Queens Blvd. Express via 63rd Street.
(V) Queens Blvd. Local via 53rd Street. Extended to 18th Avenue,
Brooklyn.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue.
(M) Brooklyn terminal is 95th Street."<<
Your plan for the V to go to Brooklyn is not possible right now due to a car shortage plus Church Av or Kings Hwy would be better terminals. BTW, according to some subtalkers, the tracks for the terminal is not in good shape so the G plan is knocked out too.
Some of your plans/ideas for the other hours cannot be done due to likeliness to cause delays and would not be feasible overall.
The V, as it is currently run, is a complete success. It has acheived it's goal of getting both E & F capacity below 100% for the first time since WWII. It's ridership has gradually increased and will continue to as more people realize that a V ride with a seat to Lexington/53rd. is better than an E ride on a crowded train.
Talking about changing it is moot. Only the media and the Straphangers have been outspoken against it, but each group has their own reasons to oppose the V which have nothing to do with how the V has been doing the job it was intended for.
Quite true. What aggravates me is that the media/Strappies say that the G got the short end of the stick while room was made for the V. Are any anti-V sentiments warranted by this reason, or is there underlying reasoning behind it?
I post there and most of them are anti-V.
The anti V "campaign" is most likely a result of the G getting the short end of the stick[which it did] HOWEVER the V is a success to me, people are starting to catch on to it and if you guys don't like it then too bad.
That's right,if people don't like the V that's just to bad,they have to accept it and if they refuse to then they can get the hell outta the city.
At first I was skeptical about it but now I see that it did reduce crowding on BOTH the E and F so I don't know what people are complaining about. So it is a success and people are still catching on and the smartest thing was to route the V via 53 St so kudos to the MTA for that. If you guys don't like it tough!
People are complaining that it's a local above all other things.
Well! V Train B47 Bus, we are living in a society where there are tons of things to complain, the weather, our job, school, the place we live in, our government you name it. Unlike the strangerhangers who spend lots of their precious time to complain about subway. I for one, don't waste my personal time complaining about new subway service like the V and W and the system. As matter of fact, I love the new trains and I'm thanking the MTA for doing such wonderful job on improving the system and adding new subway line. Those people who can't appreciate the good things in their life should oughta be a shame of themselves. They acting like childrens who cried to their mom just because others had stole their lollipop.
People at express stations are complaining that it's a local.
Are people at local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza complaining about it? I can't say for sure, since I don't think the Straphangers or any of the newspapers have bothered going to local stations for interviews, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that more of them prefer direct service to 53rd Street and 6th Avenue than direct service to the Crosstown line. Express passengers to 6th Avenue are better off than before (their F trains are less crowded via 63rd, and those who don't mind a local have the V as an alternate option), and arguably 8th Avenue passengers are, too (with 15 tph, up from 12).
If they'd restore 6 car G trains, the last major reasonable anti-G complaint will be eliminated.
Agreed.
I would also hope that the process of improving the LIC station cluster will continue, improving passenger comfort and convenience there and following through on a promise to bring ADA compliance there.
"What aggravates me is that the media/Strappies say that the G got the short end of the stick while room was made for the V."
This is absolutely true. A relatively small number of people has been somewhat inconvenienced to make life better for a far larger number.
"Are any anti-V sentiments warranted by this reason, or is there underlying reasoning behind it?"
No and some. My personal opinion is that the Straphangers are intrinsically anti-establishment. Whatever good the MTA does, they want it even better. This role is actually a useful one, as long as one doesn't take them too seriously.
The newspapers also have their own motives. They want to sell papers with stories about how the ordinary guy is being screwed by the big guys. Stories about how lots of people's commutes are a little less stressful don't sell papers.
If the MTA got rid of the V, increasing crowding on the F again, imagine the howls you'd get from both the papers and the Straphangers!
I'm not sure if it is a complete success, particularly on the E at times. However, I'll say that the V has definitely reduced crowding. While it is true that G train riders got the short end of the stick (only 4 75-ft. cars and it not going to Queens Blvd during weekdays), the V helped more than it hurt. I'll readily admit that I was one of those who wasn't very sure that the V would do more good than harm when it first started running. Now I'm convinced that it should be kept.
The V Train only runs 8 Car length, because 10 75' Cars would be to long for the station and 2 cars would be stuck in the tunnel.
Actually the V has been a godsend to the Queens BLVD line. IIRC the E and F are now below 100% capacity for once, and V trains are getting fuller by the month.
Keep the V, extend it to the eastern division over the williamsburg bridge through Chrystie St(as was mentioned in a different thread), knock it down to 6 75' cars and bring those cars back to the G. That should help alleviate the crowding on the G. The only problem is where to turn the V's back around in Bklyn...hmmm...
-Jeff
Better to use 8-car trains of R32s, because 75-foot cars are not permitted in the East. V trains can operate to Metropolitan Avenue. Shouldn't be a problem at all and Myrtle riders would have only have to take one train to midtown, not two or three like now.
I caught 6831 a little while go, and above the '5 Lexington Avenue' strip map sign was a message in red "Route Change-This map not in use".
Has anyone else seen it?
That is a standard message on the R142/142A. I have seen a a few times.
This message applies when the cars assigned to a specific route (such as the #2 rerouted on the #5 line) are diverted. So if the #5 line was diverted to the West Side, that message appears in the lower left side of the strip map and the next stop/current time display will go dark since it cannot be used also.
But does anyone notice on all the R142 stripmaps, the transfers are incorrect or missing? (B and D line at Atlantic Ave, and Bleecker Street. Missing S shuttle at Franklin Ave, Q and W lines at Canal, 14th St (east side), Tines Square (West side), W at 59th st (East Side) These transfers date back to 1999 before the Shuttle transfer at Franklin Ave was completed
They all have it, it just normally is not lit up. I rode a 2 train last week that got a skip from Gun Hill Road to 241st. After it announced "This is 219th Street", the conductor turned off the LED displays, route maps, and automated announcements, as seen below:
From the MTA site - J Line Service to run every 20mins. between 111th St and Jamaica Ctr, Saturday and Sunday. I would assume this means every other J train will turn back at 111th St to Manhattan, while those going to Parsons/Archer will run single track after 121th St. How does that effect us? Can we go there even with a GO? Perhaps we'll get turned back at Crescent St. Just a thought....
-Stef
According to the General Order, we're relaying at 111th Street. I'm sure we'll be threaded in there somehow -- the G.O. for the fantrip was designed to work around other GOs in effect this weekend.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Dave: About three weeks ago I sent a request to the NYD to purchase a quantity of the Bulletins. I included a SSAE and wanted to know how much it was cost me. AS of yet no one has replied. Did the NYD ever receive my letter?
My e-mail address is RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
David - great trip. The ERA staff was courteous and friendly Peggy had a great time and enjoyed meeting you after seeing your posts. Mark W was the conductor and he was great== gave a running commentary. I just wish Peggy would let me out of the house sometime!
Maybe one of these days Peggy will let me go and she'll stay home!
As of now, We are relaying at Crescent Street. As you know..... Fantrips on paper are never the same when it happens.
I guess we'll make do with what we have. Going some place is better than going to no place at all...
-Stef
Who knows.... Time saved there may make for more time to go someplace else!
-Mark
Yeah, like hooking up to a couple of red diesels and heading out to Costco for dinner! LOL! Now wouldn't THAT be an interesting Redbird trip? :)
If you relay at Crescent St tomorrow, your train will be less than 100 feet of where I spent the first 21 years of my life so many years ago.
I lived in the fourth house on the north side of Campus Place, the first short block north of Fulton St, and east of the el. This put me about 80 feet from the el on Crescent St.
I'll bet that my neighborhood has changed a lot since 1957! In those days, the middle track on Crescent St was only used to turn work trains.
In the 1960's, the siding didn't have switches at its north end. Did they have to put girders in the middle of the structure to install them ?
The only switches were on the south end in my time. The original Cypress Hills station was a center platform station on Crescent St prior to 1916. There may have been crossover girder work still existing from that time that might have been reused. I honestly don't know since I have not been under the el in that area since 1957.
The story from the Boston Globe.
Why dosen't the MBTA just run the MBTA? I mean SEPTA runs SEPTA, NJt runs NJT, MTA runs the LIAR and MNRR. Sure if the service was small like Shore Line East or long haul like out in California it makes sense to use Amtrak to eliminate overhead costs, but otherwise the transit agency should run the trains.
In fact the T says that is something they will consider after this five year contract period is over.
From the boston herald
Group led by ex-T boss proposed to run commuter rail
by Doug Hanchett
Friday, December 6, 2002
In one of the Bay State's biggest transit decisions in decades, the MBTA has selected an international consortium led by a former T general manager as the prospective operator of its vast commuter rail network.
If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week, the joint venture would take over commuter rail operations from Amtrak on July 1.
According to the T's selection committee, Mass Bay trumped former commuter rail operator Boston & Maine Corp. with its technical proposal. At $2.2 billion, B&M's bid was also double that of Mass Bay's.
``By choosing the proposal that offered the lowest price and earned the highest technical evaluation, the T is confident this recommendation will serve both to contain costs and improve the quality of service for years to come,'' said T spokesman Joe Pesaturo.
Mass Bay consists of European rail giant Connex, Montreal's Bombardier Transportation and the Boston-based Alternate Concepts. It was widely expected to win the contract, especially after a third company, Transit America, failed to outline a viable financial package.
A spokeswoman for Mass Bay said it was ``premature'' to comment until the T board takes up the matter next week.
Alternate Concepts is run by former T General Manager James O'Leary and includes a smattering of other former T employees. It also has offered a job to former commuter rail boss Kevin Lydon, who was fired by Amtrak earlier this year despite being widely respected by the work force.
Alternate Concepts runs some local bus services for the T and had been partners in Harbor Cruises, which run ferry boats around Boston Harbor and to Hingham.
The biggest hurdle Mass Bay will face in the coming months is negotiating a contract with the T's 1,600 commuter rail workers.
Workers have said they're seeking a ``significant'' wage increase, noting that they're paid 15 to 20 percent less than other commuter rail workers in the Northeast.
Mass Bay had preliminary conversations with union officials in early October, just before the bids were due. According to a memo obtained by the Herald, the company was dangling a $2,000 signing bonus in front of the workers, offering annual 3 to 4 percent pay hikes and giving them two additional sick days per year.
The memo from the Transport Workers Union of America states Mass Bay was seeking an ``agreement in principle,'' which it failed to get.
``The offer was not acceptable to all the unions,'' Charlie Moneypenny, chairman of the MBTA Commuter Rail Labor Coalition said yesterday. ``Nonetheless . . . people appreciated their outreach and they gave us a signal they wanted to work with us.''
B&M issued a statement yesterday saying that while it was ``disappointed'' with the T's decision, it was also ``proud'' to be one of the two finalists.
B&M ran the T's commuter rail in the 1980s until then-general manager O'Leary replaced them after serious labor strife. The company was replaced by Amtrak, which has been in charge since.
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid, saying the T's new contract wasn't fiscally viable.
In a memo to Amtrak's board of directors, Amtrak president David Gunn blasted the T for carrying out ``a mockery of the competitive bidding process'' by putting ``labor in an incredibly powerful bargaining position.''
Gunn has clashed with T general manager Mike Mulhern repeatedly since taking over as Amtrak's boss in May. Over the summer, he threatened a nationwide shutdown that would have brought the T's commuter rail to a halt.
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually and give the T tighter controls over the service.
>>> If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week ...
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid ...
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually .... <<<
Very interesting arithmetic. Amtrak is now getting $180 million a year, The T is signing a new contract for $1.1 billion over five years, but it will be saving $10 million annually. If I could handle my own budget that well I too would be a Republican politician.
Tom
on car #3725 on the R-32 N train, they have a yellow B rollsign with destinations from Lefferts Station to some Brooklyn station (couldn't see that clearly). Anyone know the history on it?
Between 1986 and 1988, Manhattan Bridge service was similar, but not exactly the same as now.
Today's Circle-Q was the yellow D and the W was the yellow B.
The major difference between the two services centered around the Astoria & Brighton line. The yellow B only ran north of Queensboro Plaza during rush hours. On the Brigton line the express tracks were not in use and D/Q trains ran a "skip-stop" service to local stations similar to J/Z service today. Here's how it ran:
Parkside Ave: Q only
Beverley Road: D only
Cortelyou Road: Q only
Ave. H: D only
Ave. J: Q only
Ave. M: D only
Ave. U: Q only
Neck Road: D only
It actually ran smoother than today's express/local service. Without the merger south of Prospect Park trains maintained even spacing and service didn't back up until you reached Atlantic Ave.
The yellow B [and yellow D] was born when the first Manny B reconstruction in 1986 forced the B and D FROM Brooklyn to run via Broadway express. Both lines ran in 2 sections:
Orange B: via 6 Av--> 34 St to 168 St
Yellow B: via Bway--> Coney Island to Astoria via Bway and Astoria[in the reverse peak] express
Orange D: via 6 Av--> 34 St to 205 St
Yellow D: via Bway--> Coney Island to 57 St via Bway express
Construction lasted 2 years and was restored to their regular routes in 1988.
Here it is:
The "yellow" B ran from late April 1986 to mid December 1988. From 4/86 to late May 1987, it ran from Queensboro Plaza middays, weekends, and evenings. It was extended to Astoria during rush hours only.
After the N/R terminal swap of 5/24/87, yellow B service was modified. It continued to run to Astoria during rush hours and Queensboro Plaza during middays. On weekends and late evenings, it terminated at 57th/7th.
The yellow B NEVER, EVER ran express on the Astoria line, despite what others have said and what's stated on this website.
"The yellow B NEVER, EVER ran express on the Astoria line, despite what others have said and what's stated on this website."
Was there EVER express service on the Astoria Line except for the brief recent fling by the W?
Was there EVER express service on the Astoria Line except for the brief recent fling by the W?
No: The Astoria express track was only used for layups and later for service diversions.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Didn't the IRT run express service on the Astoria line in the 30's & 40's?
I believe so, during the IRT/BMT joint service.
thanks for the clear up :)
I took a brief trip to Princeton Jct Friday (instead of eating lunch) to get Amtrak snow pix. NJT Arrow III #1311 was on the layup track waiting to be Dinky train #3839, so my effort was instantly rewarded.
Two Amtrak trains roared through simultaneously (one in each direction) at 11:45 just as NJT train #3842 pulled out 3 minutes late, blocking view of both AEM7-hauled Amtrak trains. My brief visit was further salvaged when NJT train #3835 came in, since it was a train of Comet V cars pulled by ALP-44M #4422.
Great Pictiures Bob. Makes me look forward to my upcoming transfer to New England this Feb(hopefully) even more!! One question though, how did you get the photo link to work on the message? I also use webshots and havent had any luck ....yet.
Thanks and great shots,
Steve Loitsch
<a href=url>NAME OF LINK works for me.
Forexample, <a href=http://community.webshots.com/photo/28673609/28674633kGGKobuCQi>snow shot becomes snow shot.
That helpful hint lost some characters between preview and post.
Another attempt:
<a href=url>NAME OF LINK</a> works for me.
Forexample, <a href=http://community.webshots.com/photo/28673609/28674633kGGKobuCQi>snow shot</a> becomes snow shot.
If this works this is for Sparky and his question about my 1st time at Branford.members day 1974 Thanks Bob for the help. BTW Sparky did you get the video yet?
Steve Loitsch
It worked great. Now tell us which of the personages was you. Glad you took chuchubob's posting hint(s). Show us more.
Dan, it is hard to tell but I am the kid with the blue hood, about 3 years old. My Father is the one in the Army green shirt pointing at something.
Steve Loitsch
I recognize your father and....is that Mike Scholl in the background?
Are you in the picture? Can you identify anyone else?
Jeff,
Yep that is Mike. Up on the brick is Tom Shade(next to Dad) and behind Dad, in the tan clothes is Gene Carson. I am in the picture, next to Tom Shade, I'm the one with the blue hood. I am not sure who that is with his back to us. The lady with the glasses would be my mother.
Steve
That detail doesn't really show too well on the web-version that
you posted. How can you even tell that's O.E.? His face isn't
visible. Is it from the caption on your hardcopy?
I have another slide taken shortly after that one and clearly shows Gene. That and my Dad mentioned who was there
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the trip "Down Memory Lane", now where have I heard that
before? Did enjoy the pixs posted.
;-) Sparky
Hey, could I possibly use that shot of 4422 for a website I am making about NEC interlocking towers for www.signalbox.org ? I'd give you credit of course.
Yes
Great shots Bob. I'll be seeing that station every day sometime soon. My job is transferring to that location from NYC sometime between June or July.
It is a great spot for viewing. Thanks for the photos Bob.
Paul
Nice! I've been wanting to see some Comet V cars in action.
FYI, WMATAGMOAGH & all:
There are 315 R-62s on the 4 and 304 (total) R-62As on the 3, including 10 for the S. The new assignments would be 315 R-62s on the 3 (all service) and 38 R-33s, 294 R-62As and 70 R-142As on the 4, with 10 R-62A singles off the 4 for the Grand Central Shuttle. In time, when 290 Option I/II R-142s are delivered for the 4, these would replace the R-33s and all except 55 single R-62As would be transferred to Corona for the 7.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I am mad because the best fleet in the system is going to a hand me down line like the 3, which is upsetting to me. These R-62A better be good, or I will be upset, but I know Concourse and Mosholu will take care of them.
Thanks!
Oh no! I can't imagine the #4 without those beloved R-62's.
Wayne
Thanks to all who enjoyed my photos and the positive feedback. I used to live in the Ridgewood area before I moved to Kew Gardens. That is why I like to photograph around Fresh Pond so much.
I was riding the F towards Manhattan this morning around 9:30 and at Bergen St, the C/R and the tower announced that F trains were going to get detoured through the Crosstown line b/c of a stalled train in Manhattan. Man people were pissed off and were angry, luckily it didn't afect me b/c I was getting off at Jay St and I could just take the A or C from Hoyt to Jay. I wanted to ride it but I had a class for 10 & started to run late and didn't want to take the chance [and I had a R32 on the F :-(]. So we got held at Bergen for 5 minutes then we proceeded via the G to Hoyt Schemerhorn St, where I went to catch the A which got packed like a sardine can until Jay St. At Jay, they did NOT say a stalled train was causing delays on the F and suggested people continue on the A to Manhattan.
R32 3760 (F)
R32 3404 (A)
(Man people were pissed off and were angry)
Including my wife which is unfortunate because I work for the TA, and can be complained to personally. My children's school had a delayed opening today, and I offered to stay behind to bring them in at 9:30, and then work late. My wife left for work at 8:00. I got to work at 9:48. She got to work at 9:50.
When passengers get angry over sudden detours, this is frequently due to the TA's failure to announce alternatives, aided and abetted by the passengers' own abysmal ignorance of the system
Of course, the lack of announcements is usually the bigger problem; but, in the case you describe, appalling passenger ignorance may have played a significant role as well in creating the anger of the passengers.
This morning's F riders could just have stayed on the F (running as a G) to Court Square, and could then have taken a V into Manhattan from there. This probably was obvious to some; and there ought to have been an announcement for the benefit of those for whom this was not obvious.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It would of benefitted those who were going to Queens and its a faster route so I wouldn't have been upset. Sometimes passengers do get ignorant & upset but they should announce alternatives, which THEY DID on the F train but at Jay St, they suggested people going to Manhattan that they use the A.
>>"This morning's F riders could just have stayed on the F (running as a G) to Court Square, and could then have taken a V into Manhattan from there. This probably was obvious to some; and there ought to have been an announcement for the benefit of those for whom this was not obvious."<<
People could have just taken the "crosstown special" to Queens Plaza and go around to the other side and catch the V. That is a more efficient transfer than Court Sq plus it was headed toward 179 St.
There go those R32's on the A again!
wayne
They ran a ten car consist on the "A" today. Could not catch the numbers but the cars were N: GE R32s; R38s; six MK R32s S.
That's an interesting-sounding mixed bag, three different kinds in one bunch. R32 on the "A" is always a treat. Come to think of it, so are the R38s. They should seriously consider swapping the "C" and "A" stock once they get some additional cars in. Only problem is can Pitkin Yard hold them?
wayne
I agree the R32 is a treat on the A; also a R32/R38 mix is a treat too :-) however catching a R38 on the A is just as common as catching a R44. Now if another car model like a R68 shows up, then that is something.
R68s on the "A", oh, God help us please. It took the TA over 20 years to get those slow R44s to somewhat of a decent speed now we have to deal with slower R68s - oh no.
But, I understand what you meant. Truth be told, after everything I just said, if a saw an R68 on the "A", I'd run over everybody on that platform to get to it. LOL
I would probably do that too ;-). But in all seriousness that would be a real head turner if the R68's ever makes it way to the A and C in daily service.
Actually, one time it did. It was back in 1991. I was waiting at Euclid Ave for the Far Rockaway "A" and looked down the tunnel. I saw the blue circled "A" approaching, but there was something different about this circle. I just assumed that the R44s were receiving new roll signs. Next thing I know this R68A comes crawling into the station.
No, it was not a re-routed "D". Every sign on that train, including the rollsigns between the cars were marked "A".
Unfortunately, it was going to Lefferts Blvd. Damn it. Nevertheless, I was in a hurry, so I couldn't ride it to Lefferts Blvd., then back to Manhattan like I wanted to, so I rode it to Rockaway Blvd.
It was a beautiful ride although short. Those trains were still new (2 to 3 yrs old). Not at all like the R68As of today.
That was the only time I witnessed an R68/R68A on the "A".
Oh, so it DID run on the A once[possibly more] but it was 1991 and they moved around rolling stock more often than now. I wonder what a R68/R68A would be like 'flying' down the Rockaway tracks.
Turtle derby. :o>
wayne
Huffing and puffing all the way.
Probably be a faster ride if we got off and ran along side of it. I'd place my money on us.
You're probably right.
With all due respect to the friskiness exhibited by the R-68s during my visit in October, I would give up riding on the A if they were ever assigned there on a long term basis.
What "friskiness" occured on a R68 that would cause that [if you want to say so]? I don't see the A and C having R68's in the forseeable future and whatever the A gets, the C usually gets as well [I know R44's normally don't run on the C].
The R-68s really moved along Broadway on the circle Q and CPW on the D.
I can't lie about that, the R68's really move when they are on express runs, especially on the Q via Broadway but I miss them on the Brighton express [but I like the slants too]. I wish they had a mix of R40's and R68's on the Q like the N.
They did that one month after 9/11 when the Q went to Forest Hills to replace the R.Some Q diamond's had R40 slants,some had R68's.I managed to ride an R68 along the Brighton once during that time.It was really nice.
Yes, I remember seeing a few R68 Q diamond's shortly after 9/11 but it came from the N. The (Q) recieved R32's and R46's from the R as well to replace it, man there was good service on the Q but I didn't ride the Q that much during the detour from 9/11 to 10/28. Kudos to the MTA for routing selected lines [J,M,Q,1] so well.
Yes, I remember seeing a few R68 Q diamond's shortly after 9/11 but it came from the N. The (Q) recieved R32's and R46's from the R as well to replace it, man there was good service on the Q but I didn't ride the Q that much during the detour from 9/11 to 10/28. Kudos to the MTA for rerouting selected lines [J,M,Q,1] so well.
I saw a pic of an R46 on the Q but during the whole time I never saw one single R46 on the Q.It was either a R32 or an R68.How often did the R46's run on the Q during that time? Damn,it would've been wicked cool to ride one.
I recall reading of only one R-46 sighting on the Q. For the most part, the local had R-68's and R-32's and the express had R-40's (which makes sense, since the express was unchanged). There were occasional exceptions, of course.
Yeah that was on 9/23/01.The pic of it is right here on the Subway Resources web page.
The locals also ran R40s.
Occasionally, perhaps, but not on a regular basis.
During the aftermath of 9/11, the "Q" circle did indeed run R40s on a regular basis.
I know right :-( but you never know a occasional R46 can show up again one day on the Q.
They chould put the slants back on the A.
I like that idea, if CI is willing to part with the 4400s again.
wayne
If the slants were to come back on the A, would you trade the R40's for the R32, R38, R44 or a mixture of any of the 3 car classes. I think it wouldn't be the same as the 80's though, especially with all the timers & stuff, it won't have the same 'excitement'.
I would move any stock displaced by the influx (read: R44) to the "C".
As for the timers, you are right; but the thought of a Slant screaming through Cranberry-Tube at 52mph gives me goose bumps!
wayne
Even in the Cranberry tunnel, the trains don't go as fast as they used to b/c of timers [I only know there are timers on the Manhattan bound tube] and I think T/O's are being a little safer now.
I'd settle for a slant rocketing along CPW. Reminds me of that live wire I rode on Easter Sunday in 1978.
That's interesting. I rode was riding the F train to Jay Street and planning to change to the C to get to work at Spring Street Friday morning (got on F train a little after 9am at Seventh Ave). When they changed the F to a G at Bergen, I thought that I could stay and get a V, but I figured it would take too long since I was going to lower Manhattan.
When I got to Jay Street, the A and C trains were cancelled going to lower Manhattan. The A and C trains were continuing to come into the station and drop people off, so getting back on the F (I got off the F before knowing the C was cancelled) was not likely as it was now overcrowded. I ended up transferring to the 5, then the 6 and walking a stretch and being an hour late to work.
Just curiously, anybody know why the A/C to Manhattan cancelled?
That's interesting. I rode was riding the F train to Jay Street and planning to change to the C to get to work at Spring Street Friday morning (got on F train a little after 9am at Seventh Ave). When they changed the F to a G at Bergen, I thought that I could stay and get a V, but I figured it would take too long since I was going to lower Manhattan.
When I got to Jay Street, the A and C trains were cancelled going to lower Manhattan. The A and C trains were continuing to come into the station and drop people off, so getting back on the F (I got off the F before knowing the C was cancelled) was not likely as it was now overcrowded. I ended up transferring to the 5, then the 6 and walking a stretch and being an hour late to work.
Just curiously, anybody know why the A/C to Manhattan was cancelled?
As I'm sure most of you know tommorrow is December 7. It will be the 61st Anniversary of the Japanese attack on Parl Harbor.
December 7 is also a date that figures in subway history.
On December 7,1962 a water main break at 18 Street and 6 Avenue caused a suspension of all 6 Avenue subway service between 34 Street and West 4 Street and all PATH service between New Jersey and 33 Street.
Several intersting re-routes were put into effect because of this.
Service on the A,E,GG and HH was unaffected. The AA ran between 168 Street and Hudson Terminal but only during rush hours. The BB ran between 168 Street and 34 Street-6 Avenue during non-rush hours. The CC was discontinued for the emergency.
The C was brought back to run between Bedford Park Boulevard and 34 Street-6 Avenue in rush hours. C's ran express between Tremont Avenue and 59 Street in the direction of heavy traffic and between 145 Street and 59 Street in the direction of light traffic.
The D continued to operate between 205 Street and Coney Island but during non-rush hours only via CPW express and 8 Avenue local tracks switching back to the regular route below West 4 Street.
The DD ran between 205 Street and Coney Island during rush hours as a local via 8 Avenue and Houston Street.
Normal service was restored in about two weeks.
It was the first time that the C had run since 1949.
It was the first and only time that the DD ever ran.
The only double letter IND service that has never been operated was the FF. Even the EE ran briefly as a Queens-8 Avenue Lcl way back in 1936.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Joe Korner has a scan of a service notice sign/brochure from the watermain break on his web site http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor.
Also note that EE was used for Broadway (BMT) - Queens Blvd service, Continental Ave. to Whitehall St., starting in 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: One of the places that I found documentary evidence for the first EE was a BOT servie notice which is currently posted in BRT BU 1227 at Branford. (Plug)
Larry, RedbirdR33
Too bad you didn't mention that back on Subtalk Day.:)
Oh well, it didn't come up that day.
Steve: WE had so much to talk about that day. Besides we ran the R-9, remember?
Larry, RedbirdR33
And 1962 was the last year that the Triplex BMT#4 ran as the Sea Beach.
And the Mets came into being in 1962. They lost 120 games that year. Supposedly Casey Stengel said at one point, "Can't anybody here play this game?"
Did you know Gil Hodges hit the first home run in Met history?
What do you think of Tom Glavine signing with the Amazins?
December 7th also marks the 9th anniversary of when gunman Colin Ferguson opened fire on the L.I.R.R., which killed several people and wounded many others. -Nick
I certainly remember that day back in 1993 when Colin Ferguson shot 6 people dead and wounded perhaps 18 others. Carol McCarthy who was the wife of Dennis McCarthy [shot dead] and the mother of Kevin McCarthy [shot and critically wounded] became the U.S. reprsentative in her district after elections in 1996.
#3 West End Jeff
The only double letter IND service that has never been operated was the FF. Even the EE ran briefly as a Queens-8 Avenue Lcl way back in 1936.
It's funny how some subjects come up again every once in a while. This thread from 4 years ago this month dealt with the subject of which IND letter designations had ever been used.
(note that just about everyone in that thread who still posts on Subtalk has changed their "Handle" at least somewhat since then. Is Mellow One still here?)
Listening to the Staten Island Railway dispatcher at 5pm, St. George Terminal for the SIR was closed. Power was removed from tracks 1 to 4. People were bused to/from Tomkinsville, all west bound trains discharged at Tomkinsville and most turned there. The schedule was thrown out the window with the Disptacher making up what run would go express or local. Trains were turned at Great Kills, Anadale and Tottenville (pardon the spelling) as determined by the Dispatcher.
Crews reported problems closing up at Tomkinsville as the buses came in packs. At around 6pm they were talking about restoring service at St. George, when I left for dinner they were talking about having service back for the 6:47 boat.
Anyone know what happened at St. George?
This all made for intresting listening, the SIR is run by the Dispatcher in Tower B at St. George but he has no display as to where the trains are once they leave St. George. He was calling different runs (SIR calls each crew/run by a letter in the military alphabet) to report where they were and determining when to turn them. All radio traffic from MOW to Police and Operation Supervisors is transmitted through the dispatcher so you can hear when they call for sand for the Tomkinsville overpass to the Operations Supervisor saying they will restore service. By the time I started listening whatever happened was not said over the radio.
It was a water pipe rupture in the terminal.
The Terps play the Tennesee(sp?) Volunteers in the Peach Bowl New Year's Eve at the Georgia Dome. But between the time you asked and i typed this, you might have already found out
GO TERPS!
btw, anything of great significance about the transit system in atlanta, georgia?
no, I havent. Thanx
It is alot like the DC MetroRail. Some trains are built by Breda, and there are many similarities between the two systems. Click here for pictures.
>>> If the T's board of directors approves the five-year, $1.1 billion bid submitted by the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Co. next week ...
Amtrak, which is being paid $180 million annually to operate and maintain the service, opted to not submit a bid ...
Earlier this week, Mulhern told state lawmakers that parting ways with Amtrak should save the agency about $10 million annually .... <<<
Very interesting arithmetic. Amtrak is now getting $180 million a year, The T is signing a new contract for $1.1 billion over five years, but it will be saving $10 million annually. If I could handle my own budget that well I too would be a Republican politician.
Tom
SUBTALKERS:
If you would like to receive a postcard invitation to "The Tubes" historical exhibit in Hoboken (more info below), forward your mailing address via email to:
jclandmarks@earthlink.net
The show promises to be the first comprehensive exhibit of the 1874 Hudson Tunnels, the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, and PATH. Please forward this post to interested subway enthusiasts, museums, collectors, etc.
************************************************
The Hoboken Historical Museum and
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy present:
"The Tubes: Rails Under the Hudson
1874 to the present-day PATH"
Guest Curator, Terry Kennedy
Members' Opening Reception: Sunday, January 19, 2003 3 p.m. ú 5 p.m.
"The Tubes" opens to the public Tuesday, January 21, 2003, through Sunday, April 13, 2003
Hoboken Historical Museum
1301 Hudson Street
Hoboken, NJ
(201) 656-2240
Museum open: Tuesday - Thursday 5-9 p.m.
Saturday & Sunday 12-5 p.m.
For directions: www.hobokenmuseum.org
From January 19, 2003 through April 13, 2003, the Hoboken Historical Museum and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy will present "The Tubes: Hudson & Manhattan's Rails Under the Hudson, 1874 to the Present-day PATH," an exhibition at the Hoboken Historical Museum on the development of the Hudson Tunnels, from 1874 until their completion over 30 years later, and their inclusion into the PATH rapid transit system.
For more info visit: www.jclandmarks.org
"The Tubes" was assisted by a grant from the New Jersey Historical Commission, a division of Cultural Affairs in the Department of State. Complementary slide lectures were made possible by a grant from the New Jersey Council for the Humanities, a state partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities. Additional exhibit support was provided by Alpine Custom Floors and Alpine Restoration, Sign Graphics, Metro Fire & Communication, Shore Contracting, and John Wiley & Sons.
I was about to check my calendar, when I thought "how can I get to Hoboken without the PATH?"
PATH is still running to Hoboken. Only the WTC and Exchange Place stations are down. You can also catch NY Waterway ferries to Hoboken.
And for those of use who may prefer rubber tired transit - there are NJ Transit and Academy buses from PABT to Hoboken. And not to slight NJ residents who may not want to drive - there are many NJ Transit commuter rail and bus routes that terminate at the Hoboken Terminal, a large and beautifully restored building that is worth seeing in its own right.
Note that the Hoboken Terminal is at the other end of Hoboken from the Hoboken Historical Museum (but that's only 14 blocks or so). Taxis within Hoboken are flat-rate ($3, I think). There is a ferry terminal (Hoboken North) just a few steps from the Museum - follow the pedestrian walkway to Hudson St. and the Museum entrance is in the walkway, on the right. It is only a few blocks from the base of the Viaduct and Willow Ave (5 blocks east, 1 block south).
I will be spending a lot of time at the Museum while the exhibition is open - if anyone wants to discuss specific topics or get more information on individual items, I'll be glad to oblige. I suggest that if you plan on attending at a specific date/time, you email me first to make sure I'll be there then.
do they still park trains in the tunnel on heavy snow strom.
Yes they do. They did that yesterday and today.
Friday evening layups were put in their regularly scheduled places. Cold weather Plan #1 in effect. All that means is to run long trains (not that anybody "cuts" anymore except for OPTO and they are running normally), leave compressors and convertors cut in (again in practice, they are never cut out anyway) and at the discretion of local supervision, trains are laid up with the air brake system charged.
As I was watching the start of Law and Order" Special Victims Unit, the first scene was a subway station at W 4th Street and a woman was getting ready to jump off the tracks when the train came. The train it turned out was the N Sea Beach, my train. At least those who produce the show know class when they see one. They paid no attention to what the TA has done to my favorite line, but rather went with the best. They could have pick the A train, the Q , the R, or whatever, but they didn't. They picked my train. Hotcha Hotcha Hotcha.
"As I was watching the start of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit, the first scene was a subway station at W 4th Street and a woman was getting ready to jump off the tracks when the train came. The train it turned out was the N Sea Beach, my train."
Since when does the N train stop at W 4th St? Make that When has the N train ever stopped at W 4th St?
>>>When has the N train ever stopped at W 4th St? <<<
back in the summer of 2000 GO when TA doing repair on prince, 23, and 8 st station. N was rerouted over the B line between 21 St Queensbridge and pacific. At that time there were no service on the broadway line between canal and 42. The R runs in two section between court and 95 and 42 and 71 continental ave. N run the 6th Ave and N was shuttled between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria
Well, I guess you can't say "Never" in that case.:)
So much for Freddy knowing 'his line'.
Maybe Fred's having a "Senior Moment" due to the lack of ice and snow in his Southern California "hacienda"! We folks in the "real world" don't have that problem. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to scrape the ice from my windshield.
Heh, a re-route at Dekalb Ave ... over the Manhattan Bridge :)
--Mark
Actually, it didn't look like West 4th Street Station. I could have sworn the tile captions said "CHURCH," but it didn't really look like Church Avenue Station either.
- Lyle Goldman
Most likely that was the filming that some had reported was going on at Church Avenue on the Culver line.
I haven't seen that particular episode, but it might have also been another 're-dress' of Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street.
Assuming the scene was shot in an IND station, What were the colors on the tile in the background?
The station was Church Avenue/McDonald Avenue (F train).
David
I thought I saw 4th Street on the sign. I am not really sure of that, but I am certain what I saw pull into the station. That was what captured my attention. It was a Sea Beach train. Maybe on the re-run two months from now I can see if I mistook the station.
They put W 4 signs on the station platform but shot the kid with the station wall in the background, and it said Church Av. The N shot was separate from the platform scenes and could have been done anywhere.
Wasn't something else filmed there in the last year? I think I heard in here a Woody Allen movie.
Men in Black II has subway scenes shot at Church Ave. disguised as 81st St. (who are they trying to kid?)
Considering Hollywood, they'll kid as many people as possible. And claim "artistic license" the more outrageious the disguises.
The tiles in the color band were purplish, just like in the real Church Avenue station. However, I could have sworn the interior band was three tiles high, even though it is only two tiles high in the real station (although I might have been looking at the outside tiles, too; it went by so fast). Also, the tile walls seemed to be a bit too clean for either West Fourth Street or Church Avenue (although that could have been because the walls were slightly blurred, which is understandable considering that wasn't the most important part of the scene, except maybe for us (:-)).
Next time that episode is on, I'll try to remember to tape the beginning and examine it more closely.
- Lyle Goldman
There was one instant where the tiles could be read as "CHURCH", albiet somewhat a blur. More interesting, however, is a later scene on the same show. The detectives are watching the 'station video' of the event. On the tape, at the instant that the young lady attempts to jump, the videotape shows a train on the local track as well as the one on the express. This was not the case in the original scene.
Guys, I started this post and all I can say that I don't give a hoot in hell what station it was. I only know and have to know that the train they showed was an N, my Sea Beach, not some other guy's Brighton, or M, or J, or D, or anything else. It showed me the program had class----and that's that.
Even more class--Ice T refers to the train as the Downtown Express. I think that hasn't been the case for twelve years.
My favorite version of L&O is "Law and Order: Elevator Inspectors Unit."
An R68 to take a shot. It definitely was an IND station with blue support columns. Where it was was a thing to me. Nice shots though!
Is it me, or has the nycsubway.org home page been rearranged?
- Lyle Goldman
It has been rearranged.
I think it looks good.
Simon
Swindon UK
Agreed. Redecorating every once in a while to keep things fresh is a good idea.
--Mark
Yes, my wife knows all about that :(
Some people think that decorating is more fun the railfanning.
Simon
Swindon UK
My wife has threated to put the house up for sale once it's been redecorated because it would be no fun to be in the house anymore once it was all done.
I reminded her that her statement can't be true because once my model subway layout was finished, it was still fun. And that was before I put it back in an unfinished state to have more fun :) I suggested that she could re-redecorate :)
--Mark
Yes, it was rearranged a few days ago.
December 5, to be exact.
Yes, it has. Very nice how you indicated that with you centering that message. :-)
Personally, I don't like how it was rearranged. I liked it the old way.
> Yes, it has. Very nice how you indicated that with you centering that message. :-)
Actually, I only indented it, like I indent all my paragraphs. I guess, depending on the size of your screen, it looks centered. It wasn't to indicate anything.
(:-)
- Lyle Goldman
lmao! Understood.
I like the BMT standard car, which is still at the bottom of this page. Standard cars are great.
It looks much easier to use, now that everything has been arranged
vertically.
The old design used too much room and had text across the screen horizontally, which was hard to read.
Where is the best place for taking photo of njtransit ALP46 over the weekend?
Hmmm...try Hoboken Terminal.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
We love the ALP46...
0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.
While I write this I am hearing on the radio...
"One system carrying the holdiday spirit- MTA going your way"
(0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.)
And private sector workers are getting? Here is the thing, wages are relative. Private sector taxpayers are hurting. Inflation is 1.4 percent, but housing prices are about to start falling. Not that I would expect us public servants to hurt as much -- we don't get as much on the upside, either.
Let's say inflation was five percent. And they were offering 3.6 percent per year over three years. In reality, it's the same thing. That's known as the "money illusion," and a reason why some economists have argued that you need a little inflation to grease the economy.
So zero percent isn't unreasonable, but the contract should be for one year, not three. What happens if conditions improve in 12 months? You don't want to be locked in to a lower figure.
It is still -3.9% PLUS A 1.6 inflation loss plus a new 2.3 pension contribution plus increased medical costs.
I think the local inflation rate is closer to 3% not 1.6%. I am using the New York table for Urban consumers and I also checked the wage earner index. I did not use the seasonal adjustment BUT fuel cost more last year so that might make things worse.
The price of a house is falling not housing costs. That is due to increases in expected real estate tax payments and the bottoming out of mortgage interest rates. Using total costing you are likely getting less house. Rents did go down in areas where airline people rented but that stabilized a few mmonths ago and even zone 1 rents are strating to creep up again.
(The price of a house is falling not housing costs. That is due to increases in expected real estate tax payments and the bottoming
out of mortgage interest rates. Using total costing you are likely getting less house.)
You are right about the rates and taxes. Still, I think housing prices are bound to fall to make up for it. We have a bubble, but the late 1980s shows there is a lag between the loss of income in the economy and the fall in housing prices. Landlords and home sellers will hold out for inflated prices before rising vacancies force them to smell the coffee. They'll probably even try to pass on the property tax increase to the buyers/tenants. But it can only go on for so long.
(Rents did go down in areas where airline people rented but that stabilized a few mmonths ago and even zone 1 rents are strating to creep up again.)
People want to come here and live here, but it can only go on for so long without jobs. Things may stabilize, but only if there is a fast turn around to the economy. I expect more losses, and then a slow pull out a la the mid-1990s.
People want to come here and live here, but it can only go on for so long without jobs. Things may stabilize, but only if there is a fast turn around to the economy. I expect more losses, and then a slow pull out a la the mid-1990s.
People may want to come to New York, but their numbers will diminish if the city and state keep boosting taxes. Higher rates may produce a short-term gain, but a long-term disaster.
0% over three years, increased health copayments, and an additional 2.3% payment for the pension plan.
While I write this I am hearing on the radio...
"One system carrying the holiday spirit- MTA going your way"
1993...Massacre on the rails: Colin Ferguson of Brooklyn opens fire on a Long Island Railroad train, killing six passengers.
May his victims rest in peace.
ANDEE
>>Colin Ferguson of Brooklyn opens fire on a Long Island Railroad train, killing six passengers.<<
That's right, on Pearl Harbor day no less.
The M-3 car where the shooting took place, was renumbered from #9891 to #9945. The last LIRR M-3 was #9944 at the time. The LIRR didn't want the car to return to service with the old number.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>> The LIRR didn't want the car to return to service with the old number. <<<<
I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson.
Peace,
ANDEE
That means that 9892 is 9946???? P.S. 9892 is the "Blood-Bath" car.
God, that is so sad.
How much time did that nutjob get for what he did? Life plus 100 years? His get out of jail card should be a toe tag.
200 years.
Who were the builders for the cars for the LA Metro?
(And what year?)
Brea of Pistoria Italy (outside of Florence, next to the SuperStrada to Pisa)
Don't you mean Breda?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, you are right. I dropped the "d" and got Brea.
....as in La BREA Tar Pits. One of the reasons the subway doesn't go too far out on Wilshire.
What about the cars fot the Blue & Green lines?
>>> What about the cars fot the Blue & Green lines? <<<
Blue Line:
Technology: P865 model Light rail vehicle, articulated, 6-axle,double-ended, pantograph
powered (750V DC)
Manufacturer: Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo, Japan
Fleet: 69 vehicles, 100-153 series
Built: 1989-1990 , 1994-1995
Cost: $1,170,000 each
Length: 87'
Width: 8'-8 3/4"
Height: 11'6" (top of rail to roof); 23'5" (plus max pantograph); 6'8" (Interior ceiling height)
Weight: 94,000 lbs.
Capacity: 150 seated; 230 max seated + standing + 2 wheelchairs
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; 35 mph street running
Acceleration: 0 to 55 mph in 45 seconds
Operation: Cars run in train lengths of two, increased to 3-cars during rush hours. At night they run as single units.
The cars carry such conveniences as air conditioning, a security intercom system, seating for handicapped, floors level with station platforms for ease of boarding.
Green Line:
52 P2000 light rail car:Siemens Transportation Systems, Sacramento and Carson, California
Dimensions:
The 52 Siemens cars are compatible and interchangeable with the Sumitomo cars. The bodies of the cars feature a streamlined, aerodynamic design with AC propulsion. The Green Line will share the 52 cars with the Gold Line Pasadena route, as well as the Long Beach Blue Line, and other future light rail lines. The cars cost about $2 million each and began delivery in early 1998.
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; increased to 65 mph in 1998.
operation: Runs in single-car train length configuration. Increased to two-car configuration during rush hours.
Tom
Just a slight correction...the newer series of cars in 1994-1995 were numbered 154-168.
154-168 originally ran on the Green Line until the Siemens P2000 cars started service (in 2000?) When the Green Line opened in August 1995, Blue Line cars 100,126 and 136 were assigned to supplement 154-168, after a month or so, they were returned to Blue Line service. Until the P2000s started operated, both the Blue and Green lines operated out of the Blue Line facility in Carson (Division 11), Green Line cars had to switch over to the Blue Line to get to the yard using a switch just east of the Imperial/Wilmingotn (Rosa Parks) station.
154-168 originally ran on the Green Line until the Siemens P2000 cars started service (in 2000?) When the Green Line opened in August 1995, Blue Line cars 100,126 and 136 were assigned to supplement 154-168, after a month or so, they were returned to Blue Line service. Until the P2000s started operating, both the Blue and Green lines operated out of the Blue Line facility in Carson (Division 11), Green Line cars had to switch over to the Blue Line to get to the yard using a switch just east of the Imperial/Wilmingotn (Rosa Parks) station.
>>> Who were the builders for the cars for the LA Metro? <<<
Red Line Rolling Stock:
Technology: A650 model Heavy Rail, 4-axle, configured in married pairs. Third-rail powered
(750V DC)
Manufacturer: Breda Construzione Ferroviarie, Ltd, Italy
Fleet: 30 vehicles, 501-530 series
Built: 1988-1993
Cost: $1.5 million each
Length: 75'
Width: 10'
Height: 12'6" (top of rail to roof); 6'8" (interior ceiling height)
Weight: 82,000 lbs
Capacity: 59 seated; 169 max seated + standing + 1 wheelchair
Speed: 70 max allowable; 55 max in first segment
Acceleration: 3.0 mph/sec
Operation: Currently runs in 2 or 4-car configurations, depending on peak period. Can run in up to 6-car lengths. Automatic train control ability.
The cars feature air conditioning, emergency intercom, wheelchair spaces, emergency braking and have automatic train control capability.
Not sure of the quantity, but there was an additional order of cars for the Red Line. The info above is correct for the first 30 cars which ran LA Union Station to Wilshire-Western. With the extension to North Hollywood going into service, manymore cars were required.
I saw 578 on a truck being transported south to LA (in Coalinga) a few years ago. I also photographed 602 at the yard in downtown LA earlier this year.
The second batch for the extension to Hollywood & Vine were 531-572. 531/532 were delivered at the end of 1996 I think (though I never got to see it before I departed L. A. in July 1998), the others were delivered between 1997 and early 1999 in time for the opening of the Hollywood extension in June 1999. The 3rd batch were 573-604, delivered 1999-2000 for the North Hollywood extension which opened June 2000.
Thanks for the info. I live all of 30 miles southeast of the yard in downtown LA but HATE to go to LA. Between the traffic and filth, I don't want to deal with it.
Six-car consists are standard on the North Hollywood line weekdays, AM through PM rush hours.
Yesterday my wife took a 6 to 51st. Within 2 hours she returned to the 6 at 51st and got a free trip. I suspect this has to do with the work on the E/V portion of the station, to encourage people to use the 3rd Ave escalator.
Does anyone know if this free transfer is:
- A fluke?
- Available only in rush hours?
- Available all the time?
Probably a fluke.
A couple of weeks ago I was forced to buy a $3.00 Metrocard after I returned a rental truck. I had left my card at home and needed to take one train and two busses to get back. I figured a $3.00 card would cover it, but to my surprise the second bus accepted the card as a transfer. Bonus for me. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, there are a few "three-leg" or "transfer-on-transfer" privileges out there. For example:
- Westbound Bx29, then westbound Bx12, then any connecting bus (not sure about the subway);
- Q79, then Q12/Q30/Q46/Q43/Q36, then the subway. The "third leg" must be the subway, AND the second leg can't be a Long Island Bus route (so don't walk the two blocks to the border);
- Any Staten Island bus, then the Staten Island Railway (swipe at the ferry), then any bus or subway station in lower Manhattan.
Of course, all of these work in reverse, too.
I don't believe there are any transfers from LI Bus to NYCTA Buses.
I don't believe there are any transfers from LI Bus to NYCTA Buses.
BZZT! Wrong.
Umm....... use a Metrocard. I think if you pay from L Bus with change or a token then there is no transfer btw LI Bus/NYCT buses but w/Metrocard it IS possible.
Not only is it possible but LI Bus is 3 leg as well... but if NYCT is involved it MUST be first OR last, you can take the subway to the N6 to the N40 but you can't take the N6 to the Subway to the N32.
Plus LI bus with change costs and extra quarter for the first transfer, free for the second (neither of which can be used on NYCT).
When the M10 was split into the M10 and M20, an extra free transfer was instituted between the two. Does anybody know if this is still the case?
There's also a few 3 leg transfers involving SI Express buses... I have no idea of any specifics, other than you can indeed take the X10 to the S61 to the S59.
Mine was the first one, 2 train to westbound Bx12 to Bx34.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well. This have happin alot to me.
Every time I allways 1st use the MetroCard on the QM1A($3) then I use the Transfer on the card on the M34. THen when I go back and use the M16 anouther Transfer is to be taken off and $1.50 is to be taken out. Then I use the card on the QM1A back to Queens and takes out $3.
Why is that I getting 2 Transfers and this also happin not within 2 Hours,Within 3 Hours normally. I guess on the M34 bus my card adds anouther transfer onto my card and besides you can't use a M16 Transfer on a M34 bus and vice versa
I have seen this advertised on posters that describe the lack of 6 to EV transfers in the morning
I thought the free transfer was only available at the 3rd Avenue end of the IND platform. The Lex end is closed for entry in the morning rush, and access to the IRT platforms are always available. The only reason the transfer is needed is so that passengers on the 6 can transfer to the E/V in the morning rush.
And this was at 5 PM, at Lex and 51st, not at 3rd Ave.
The transfer is probably rush hours only but then again, you don't know what tricks the MTA can pull.
The turnstiles at this styation complex have been programmeds to allow such a transfer via MetroCard ONLY. I also wisht o remidn you, this woukd be your transfer-- meaning no rtansfer to bus in Queens for free since you used it at 53rd Street and 3rd ave..
If you need the bus transfer stay on the 6 to 59th and use the R to Queens to get the E or V. The transfer cna be made at toher than AM rush houirs Monday to Friday.
Thanks. So it's a 24-hour a day transfer (subject to the issues you mention)?
Yes. Remember- only one transfer meaning no free transfer to bus siocne you suied the transfer for the subway. (BTW- the same codnition applies at COurt Square ont he G and COurthouse Square on the 7.)
Before that new JFK train(which is still being worked on)was made, I remember the original Airport Train. I'm looking at my 1980 subway map as I post this. It had a light blue bullet, with a plane, and it had the R44's with the blue stripe. I remember seeing this train until the early 1990's. I believe they completely ended this in 1991. This subway line ran from 57 St., Manhattan to Howard Beach. From Howard Beach station, people could take the JFK express bus. This subway line shared mostly with the (A) and the original (C)(when it was actually good). I believe they ended the Airport train(and the (K) line), was because of service cut backs, which made the (A) line completely take over what those 2 lines did.
Do you think it was a good idea to have the (A) line, what it is now?
BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan. It ran from 168 St./Broadway to WTC(which is gone now)
"BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan. It ran from 168 St./Broadway to WTC"
Same train was also called the AA for quite a few years. The AA ran in non-rush hours only if I'm not mistaken.
That is correct. After the 1977 service cuts, it didn't run during the late hours, either. The A began making all local stops in Manhattan during those hours, which it still does to this day.
["BTW, the (K) was the only subway line that was 100% Manhattan."]
Forgot about the 42ndSt Shuttle, did ya?
I think a few extra trains per hour would do the A good. And frankly the JFK express would of been pheasable if there was a actual connection to JFK, and a few more stops.
>>Do you think it was a good idea to have the (A) line, what it is now?<<
As for your question I think the current A(and C) is good. I just think the C should be extended to the Bronx once more.
I think having the C run to the Bronx was useful. I speculate that the TA thought it made more sense to keep terminal branches in the family, meaning the B and D offer local/express service for people heading the same direction. But other lines do not behave exactly that way, so my speculation is probably wrong...
IIRC the B and C switch was intended to standardize equipment in each yard. Concourse Yard now has nothing but R-68s while 207th St. has R-32s, R-38s, and all of the R-44s (unless some are based out of Pitkin Yard).
>>>IIRC the B and C switch was intended to standardize equipment in each yard.<<<
This is correct. In other words, done for the convienience of the TA not the passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
"This is correct. In other words, done for the convienience of the TA not the passengers."
Non-sequiter. The difference in passenger comfort between these car classes, if any, is far outweighed by the increased reliability of service passengers get when the TA's yards can perform maintenance more efficiently.
So in this case, the TA's convenience also makes possible much better customer service, or equal customer service by spending a reduced budget more wisely.
True, Ron, but the TA eliminated the one seat ride option for say the passenger boarding at Fordham Road going to 34/8th during rush. Now that person has to transfer. Why not just change the equipment and keep the lines the same?
BTW, how did the move go?
Peace,
ANDEE
There have been a few others that only operated in Manhattan. The AA and the BB, also the 42 Street Shuttle and the Bowling Green Shuttle.
The S or B Grand Street Shuttle in any one of its several incarnations before the line was extended to Queens. The B 57 Street Shuttle between 57 Street and 47 Street. There was also the IRT #3 145 Street which became the Lenox Terminal Shuttle in 1968.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Actually when the JFK Express started service it used R-46's. There were a few in the 1200 series that were assigned and they operated as 3-car trains. I don't know the exacts units but it was something like 1201-1246. At the time the JFK Express fleet were the only subway cars that were free of graffiti. In it's early days I also recall 4-car trains of R-46's regularly on the E,F,GG & N would show up on the JFK Express from time to time. Apparently they didn't have the JFK Express signs and operated with "S" signs.
In the early 80's I also saw 4-cars R-38's on the JFK Express, but this seemed to be very rare.
The R-44's came to the JFK Express later in it's life.
Re: K line. The K, which was originally the old AA line operated all times except rush hours and later late night service was eliminated. At that time the C (old CC) operated during rush hours only. The current C line is actually a combination of the old rush hours only CC and old K (AA) because it provides 8th Ave local service all times except late nights when the A becomes the local.
Wayne
at one time the (K) ran from Rockaway Parkway (L) to 57th Street/6th Avenue Via Canarsie Line, Broadway El, Christie St Connection and 6th Ave Lines?
at one time the (K) ran from Rockaway Parkway (L) to 57th Street/6th Avenue Via Canarsie Line, Broadway El, Christie St Connection and 6th Ave Lines?
That's the one that I consider the "real" K train. The other K, that replaced the AA as the Washington Heights/WTC 8th Ave. local, was probably called that since it was on the rollsigns and by that time (I guess it was about 10 years later) the general public had forgotten about the original K.
Yes and that was until 1976, when it was cancelled. The blue K came about to replace the AA in 1985 since they were eliminating double letters but in turn got replaced by the C in 1988.
the ''K'' ran from Eastern Parkway[ENY] to 57th 6th ave.Some trains were stored on the old Pitkins ave El at Atlantic ave during middays and evenings.... also some were put ins at Metropolitan av[M],so early mornings, you might see one[K]on the Manhattan bound M line swinging 'round that curve!
For those of us (myself included) mature enough to remember the IRT West Side routings pre-Feb. 1959, there were two 100% Manhattan routes:
The Broadway-7th Ave. Local, today's #1 route truncated, ran between 137/Broadway and South Ferry. Believe it did not operate owl hours or Sundays.
The 7th Ave. Local, the ancestor of today's #3 route, ran at all times between 145/Lenox and South Ferry.
Well actually the JFK express started in 1978 but I think it didn't appear until the 1979 or 1980 map. The JFK express used R46's mostly [and later R44's] in 3 car sets and had the slogan "Take the train to the plane" on the sides when it had the blue stripe. Yeah, it went via 6 Av then switched at W 4 St[the last regular service train to do so] to the 8 Av line then ran via A line to Howard Beach.
The JFK's demise came in 1990 because of service cutbacks, lower than expected patronage & its fare of $3.50 or something like that.
As for the blue K, it replaced the AA in 1985-1986 when the system eliminated double letters for good and the C was only a rush hour train which was the diamond . Then in December 1988, the K got replaced by the C and it got expanded service to Brooklyn all day weekdays and all times except nights in Manhattan.
The A is good right now but it definitely needs more service and maybe the C should come back to the Rockaways or redesignate the Lefferts Blvd branch.
"maybe the C should come back to the Rockaways"
Back in the '70s, the Rockaway Park branch had pretty good ridership. With the decline in service, filthy slow equipment (100% R10s only), major delays, crime, overcrowding (on the "A"), passengers just found other alternatives to getting to the city.
There were several alternative services competing with the "C" AT THAT TIME:
QM16 Rockaway Park-Midtown Manhattan Express;
Q35 Flatbush-Rockaway (change for "2" or "5" @ Flatbush for downtown);
Q53 Rockaway-Woodside Express (change in Rego Park for the Queens Blvd lines or change at Woodside for the "7" or LIRR for Manhattan);
The "A" train (some people would just drive to the B67 St Sta);
Several private express services: Private Trails, Manhattan Commuter Express.
They (the TA) did everything they could to get people to ride the "C" Rockaway Park branch - even making it run all day into Manhattan instead of rush hour only. It just did not catch on. The "C" was a local, the few people rode it just changed for the "A" (the express) at Broad Channel and vice versa. This fact is one of the reasons that prompted the TA to eliminate the "C" from coming to Rockaway Park and replacing it with the 24/7 "S" and the limited rush hour "A".
Even with this arrangement, ridership is still light.
Why would people change at Broad Channel and not Rockaway Boulevard or Euclid, which have (and had) twice as much A service?
Exactly, it is more sensible to transfer at Euclid but maybe they wanted a sure shot at catching the A plus a better chance of getting a seat, particularly during the rush hour.
If it was a seat you wanted, during the rush hours, you had a better chance with the Lefferts Blvd. "A". The Far Rockaway's intervals were not as good as they are today, thus, a lot of Far Rockaways were standing room only by B. 67th St.
Because the TA always had a habit of putting anything out of Rockaway Park right smack in front of the Far Rockaway "A". Back in those days, any Rockaway resident who normally used the subway knew this was the practice. Also to make sure, the passengers on the "C" can see the "A" waiting just before the tracks merge. In the few cases when they didn't see the "A", then they would go to Rockaway Blvd. to transfer for whatever "A" arrives.
Perhaps some C trains during rush hours should go to Far Rockaway to supplement the A Far Rock service. Since NYCT made the current arrangement of running Far Rock trains 24/7 as opposed to having a dumb 'Round Robin" H shuttle (you would HAVE to go to Rock. Park FIRST then loop back to Far Rockaway, or if you started at Rock. Park first, you would have to travel to Far Rock, and then double back just to get to Broad Channel. You can avoid this by changing trains at Beach 90th St or Beach 67th st, but most of the time you will miss your connection.) Ridership at night has increased but it took NYCT almost 40 years to think of something nice like that.
The current truncated midday B is Manhattan-only.
The AA and BB were also 100% Manhattan.....
Boy, how quickly we've all forgotten about the 3 from 9/19/01 through 9/14/02.
[This subway line ran from 57 St., Manhattan to Howard Beach. From Howard Beach station, people could take the JFK express bus.]
Some notes:
- In radio communications, the JFK Express was called "the "Bird."
- Because of the premium fare, the "Bird" had priority over ALL else, which tended to cause major problems on the A, C, E, F, and Q.
- In its last days, the northern terminal was 21st Street-Queensbridge. From there, the "QT" bus (operated by a subsidiary of Triboro Coach) connected to LaGuardia. (BTW, the Howard Beach connector bus ran out of East New York depot.)
- Most riders were Howard Beach commuters. At the "Kill-the-Bird" public hearing, some speakers actually complained (on the record!!) that, without the JFK Express, they'd have to travel on the "African Queen." Naturally, Transit used those comments to further justify discontinuation.
Those yahoos in Howard Beach spent an extra $5 or $6 EACH WAY, EVERY DAY, just to avoid sharing a train with "undesirables"?
Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott and (especially) John Rocker would be SO proud of them!
--Randy Brown
Baltimore MD
Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott and (especially) John Rocker would be SO proud of them!
I know Rocker is a racist and Thurmond is a reformed segregationist, but what on earth would make you beieve that Trent Lott would sympathize with the racist whining of Howard Beach residents? Is it because he's a conservative, therefore anti-minority? If you believe that, then you're the bigot.
Chris, apparently you haven't heard about Lott's comments at Thurmond's 100th birthday celebration. Lott publicly praised Thurmond's 1948 Presidential campaign, in which Thurmond ran on an anti-civil rights platform. Thurmond won a number of Southern states. Lott said that he voted for Thurmond, and that if the rest of the country had followed the South's lead, there wouldn't have been "other problems" later on. Such as the civil rights and voting rights movements.
Lott's association with groups such as the Council of Conservative Citizens is also well-documented. The CCC is a direct descendant of the White Citizens' Councils, which vainly opposed civil rights initiatives.
Still don't believe me? Just look at this weekend's online news services, or go to www.groups.google.com and do a search for "Trent Lott Thurmond". (Remember to select "sort by date".) It's all over the place.
Lott is every bit as much a bigot as those Howard Beach yahoos. And another thing: If Lott is such a great senator, why does Mississippi consistently rank either 49th or 50th in such areas as income and education? And always at or near the top in poverty? What REALLY has Lott done for those people?
--Randy B.
You're insane. Lott has done nothing to demonstrate any bigoty to any race. I'm no great fan of his, but your attacks on him are patently unfair.
Insane? I repeat: Lott's comments last Thursday were broadcast LIVE over C-SPAN, and have been WIDELY COVERED all over the media. Here is the exact quote:
"I want to say this about my state [Mississippi]: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. [Round of applause.] And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either."
Thurmond ran for president only once, in 1948. He ran on a platform that specified opposition to integration, opposition to a repeal of the "poll tax" (used in the South to discourage blacks from voting), and especially opposition to the criminalization of lynchings. Specimen ballot brochures from Thurmond's campaign have been reprinted over the last several days, and let me tell you, they're nasty.
Therefore, when Lott says that the people of his state are "proud" of voting for Thurmond, it's a ringing endorsement of that platform. Lott and his apologists now say that the remarks were intended in jest - but having heard the speech for myself, he sure as hell didn't sound like he was joking. Even William Kristol, editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, said "Oh, my God!" when he heard Lott's remarks. There are some things you just DO NOT joke about! As a politician, Lott should have known better.
And once again, Lott's cozy relationship with the Council of Conservative Citizens is a matter of public record. In fact, he contributed articles to the CCC's magazine that closely mirror Thursday's remarks. I suggest again doing a search for this stuff: you'll find it immediately.
Yes, I'm attacking Lott. So are millions of other, sensible Americans of all ideologies. He supplied the ammunition that we are attacking him with. He has signed a check with his mouth that his rear end may not be able to cash. The sorry son of a syphillitic streetwalker deserves every insult that's coming to him. Turnabout is fair play, Jack.
Back to the subways!
--RB
There's no question that Lott screwed up royally with those remarks, and you are absolutely correct about the written record.
On the other hand, Strom Thurmond is 100 years old and is afflicted with many of the limitations of a 100 year old man. His chief of staff is now the "de-facto" senator, while he remains the "de-jure" senator, and it is my belief that he really should have been retired, because he is really not functional as a Senator. But his long-term memory is intact, and so I am sure he liked Lott's comments (I did not).
Perhaps if Trent Lott had made those comments in private, over dinner in a hotel suite,with only Thurmond and family present, it would have been in the way of an affectionate remark made to an old man that has won Lott's respect. And of course, it probably would not have reached the press (except for maybe a book published thirty years from now which we would be browsing at Doubleday).
But, Lott made those comments in a public forum, in front of the media, and he deserves whatever drubbing is dished out to him.
Lott is merely a mirror on the entire PHILOSOPHY of his party. The RICH rule, and everyone else can clean up after them, so long as they face the dais at all times. Prior to Lott's party, we were *ALL* Americans. Now some of us are MORE "american" than others, and everyone else can go to hell. I *know* because I have to pay bills, that I'm no longer an "American" since I don't own servants, and silly me, I pay 74% of my wages in taxes. Leona Helmsley WAS right.
But SOME day, it'll all catch up to them. Dang. I promised I'd quit the politics when election day came and went and yet, the POLITICS is rolling over us like a runaway bus with these loose canon "glad to be a republican" types ... latest word now is Congress is going to eliminate MORTGAGE DEDUCTIONS, add more child credits ("reproduce WHITE children or we'll dock you"), eliminate Capitol Gains, rents, royalties and "death tax" and stick everyone else with MORE property taxes (higher rents), more SCHOOL taxes, more local SALES taxes and more SIN taxes ... woohoo! I'm GLAD to be a republican. That 74% of my wages in taxes will be 275% in NO time (Enron math, it's good, I can charge it to my Visa) ...
So LET Trent Lott play the race card, we would have been better off with HOOVER. But the people have spoken, and I'll do my BEST to raise enough money to pay my taxes so I can be proud to be a republican. I'm just PROUD that the retirees are going to get it up the cornhole first. (pensions and social security 100% taxable at fed and state level) ... can't wait. :)
One of my regrets about leaving Mississippi is that I can't vote against Trent Lott anymore. I guess that's the price I pay for moving someplace with good rail transit.
Mark
Heh. And don't forget that SHOTGUN wedding you missed out on too. Well, with the bored-agains now in COMPLETE control of our government (who woulda thunk we'd blow up the Taliban only to hand them the reigns to our GOVERNMENT to control as they wished), we can STILL hope that Lott will be turned into a pillar of salt. :)
Wanna know what's beautiful? Rush Limbaugh HIMSELF blasted Lott for his boneheaded comment! That, my friends, is amazing.
Trent Lott will be one of the most powerful men in the country when the next Congress convenes. He needs to heed these words from "Spider-Man" creator Stan Lee:
WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.
Back to the subways (I hope)!
--RB
>>> The sorry son of a syphillitic streetwalker deserves every insult that's coming to him. <<<
I hadn't realized he had risen to his present position from such a humble beginning. :-)
Tom
Lott said that he voted for Thurmond
Thurmond needed the children's vote.
[...Thurmond is a reformed segregationist....]
The old-school, "hatred-for-fun-and-profit" segregationists don't reform; they either shut up or pay lip service to diversity in the interest of political correctness.
"At the "Kill-the-Bird" public hearing, some speakers actually complained (on the record!!) that, without the JFK Express, they'd have to travel on the "African Queen." "
Sordid and disgusting indeed, but unfortunately there's no cure for the die-hard racist. It was however, at best a distraction for the real issue that few airport bound commuters were using the train. Today, I imagine the connection between the 6th and Fulton Street services is still useful as an emergency re-router and for non-revenue moves, but due to the disruption it would cause other lines, MTA has said officially that the JFK Express as it ran until 1990 will not be coming back.
I hope it never comes back. I can truly attest to the fact that it was the JFK Express that held up the "A" and "C".
It was normal practice, for example for a NB "A" train to be held just south of Howard Beach, WAIT for the SB "JFK" to arrive at Howard Beach's southbound platform, bypass it, crossover all 4 tracks, reverse ends, pull into northbound platform, unload, then load passengers, then depart.
After all of this, some 10 to 15 minutes later, the "A" was then allowed to proceed.
This was just one of the many idiotic things the TA did it came to "A" vs "JFK".
Great example. Fortunately, the TA finally recognized that this arrangement was not working.
The original "Train to the plane" ran from 1978 to 4/15/90. It used 3 car R46 trains until t's final days when it used 4 car R44 trains. It was eliminated because it was hardly ever used.
Even with priority over the "regular" trains, it would get backed up on Fulton Street behind A expresses during rush hours. At least you'd have a seat for the premium fare, but not many would pay it. Now that we have midday and weekend A express service since the early 90s, I believe, the JFK Express would have almost no time advantage.
If the fare had been lower than what they were charging, then maybe it would have had more use and MIGHT still be in existence but you're right, rush hour A's interfered with it and that also had a negative impact. Now, a JFK express would not work on the Fulton line but if it were a separate line and created instead of the AirTrain, that would be better.
[>>"Now that we have midday and weekend A express service since the early 90s, I believe, the JFK Express would have almost no time advantage."<<]
Midday A express service started in December 1988
Weekend A express service started in May 1999
If only the Airtrain was built to subway specifications....just thinking that that would be a much better way to spend a billion...besides, it wouldn't involve a switch to get into manhattan
-Jeff
Also the 3 used to be 100% manhatten. harlem to 14st.
For all of the new "old" pics you put up yesterday. I'm gonna be busy for a while going through all of them.
Not to nitpick, but you've mislabeled this picture as being at Norwood Ave. on the J line, when it appears to be Prospect Park on the Brighton line.
Your right. I have my name changed to Harry P. Thre is a picture taken at 168th Street listed as being demolished, even though it was the double "A". Daves been very busy. Thanks Dave, I liked the R46s
Let me know which one that is... I obviously marked it as 168th on the Jamaica line.
The captions come from Joe T. Sometimes there are errors. If you find more let me know the image name and what's wrong with it...
Where are the pics?
Check out the newest images page. They're also integrated with the older pics in the illustrated car roster page.
Thanks.
RidewoodBus Buff started an interesting thread about train that only run in one borough (or is it burrow?).
Trains that only ran in one borough like those that never go to Manhattan had and have a special flavor to them. I lived in The Bronx and we had some interesting lines. In fact we still have one.
The Third Avenue El ran entirely in The Bronx after 1955 between Gun Hill Road and 149 Street.
The #9 (now the #5) Dyre Avenue Local between Dyre Avenue and East 180 Street.
In the days of long ago there was the Shuttle train of Composites between East 241 Street and Fordham Road.
How about any others in the outlying burrows?
Larry, Redbird R33
Queens only, prior to 1949:
BMT Flushing and Astoria shuttles to/from Queensboro Plaza.
Brooklyn only:
BMT Franklin Ave. - Coney Island service on summer weekends only.
BMT Culver Shuttle 1959 - 1975 (ran old SIRT cars for a while).
IND HH Court Street shuttle.
Staten Island:
Sort of a stretch, but the SIRT has always been unique, even today as part of the subway system.
How about the Staten Island railway?
Hmmm...But I thought the SIR was not a subway, hence the name, Staten Island Railway...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
The SIR Is a FRA Registered/Inspected Railway but use Modified R44 B Division Cars and Have Cars Sent By flatbed Truck From the Clifton Shops Over VZ Narrrows bridge to Cony Island Shops for major repair.
Exactly.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The K use to run from the World Trade center to 168 street, During GO's the 7 runs from Main Street to Queensboro plaza, theres the Franklin Avenue shuttle and the 42 Street shuttle, the B use to run from 36 Street to Coney Island, the W use to run from Pacific street to Coney Island. That's all I can think of. And the Staten Island Railway.
Don't forget the Rockaway shuttle (formerly the H).
No. Euclid Avenue is in Brooklyn, so at times, it was 2 boroughs.
No, during late weekday evenings and all day Saturday and Sunday (6am - 11:30pm), the "H" (used to be the "CC") ran between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel - both in Queens.
But at the other times, it was not.
I know this. That is why I SPELLED out the times when it operated in ONE borough only.
well now it (S) only operates in one borough anyway
That's right. Thank you very much.
If you're gonna count nighttime shuttles, then you can include the West End (until this September), Sea Beach (1976-1987), Bay Ridge shuttle, Lennox shuttle (1968-1991), 57th/6th St. shuttle (1968 to 2001 in various forms).
There was also the Pelham Bay Shuttle - Pelham Bay Park to 125th St.
Oops! My mistake, 125th St is in Manhattan not the Bronx. My apologies.
I thought of another: The IRT had a shuttle from Bowling Green to South Ferry in the 1960's and a shuttle (IND) Hoyt to Court ,(Now a museum).
If you can count the Third Ave. El after 1955, then I guess you can count the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. Els before they were extended into the Bronx.
And if we go way back to the 1800's, before some of these line were extended to Manhattan
The Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island RR
The Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach RR
The Prospect Park and Coney Island RR
The Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island RR
The NY and Sea Beach RR
(I know I'm stretching the point :-)
Don't forget the Lexington Ave el in brooklyn!
Technically, it ran to Park Row some of the time.
Between 1944 & 1950 it only ran to Bridge-Jay St.
Didn't it also run from 111th St or Lefferts Blvd. after 1944? That would also mean it was a 2 boro line.
The Lexington Ave Line's eastern terminal was Eastern Parkway.
It only ran to 111th St during rushhours on weekdays.
Then technically, it's a 2 boro line, even for just a few hours a day.
The old AA route
The old BB route
BMT routes #8 & #9, but they shouldn't count as subway lines.
Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently:
3: 148-LT to 135 (early Sunday morning only)
5: Dyre to E180 (late nights)
B: 145 to 34 (weekday middays)
N: Pacific to 86 (weekends and late nights)
R: Pacific to 95 (late nights)
S: Times Square to Grand Central (all times except nights)
S: W4 to Grand (all times)
S: Broad Channel to Rock Park (all times)
In recent years we've had the following:
3: 148-LT to 14 (all times)
B: 36 to Stillwell (late nights)
C: 145 to WTC (also 168 to WTC for a time, I think) (weekends)
R: 36 to 95 (late nights)
S: Essex to Broad or Chambers, during Williamsburg Bridge closure
W: Pacific or 36 to Stillwell (late nights and weekends)
---
3: 148-LT to 14 (all times)
---
All times except rush hours (and the last 4 trains of the night)
The other trains went to the Bronx. E 180 St(nights, early AM) or E 238 St-White Plains Road (PM rush hours)
Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently:
3: 148-LT to 135 (early Sunday morning only)
5: Dyre to E180 (late nights)
B: 145 to 34 (weekday middays)
N: Pacific to 86 (weekends and late nights)
R: Pacific to 95 (late nights)
S: Times Square to Grand Central (all times except nights)
S: W4 to Grand (all times)
S: Broad Channel to Rock Park (all times)
Don't forget the Myrtle to Metropolitan "M" shuttle, late nights and weekends.
I almost included it, but I corrected myself in time. To my knowledge, Brooklyn and Queens have not yet merged.
Duh on me. You are correct.
>>> Excluding short-term GO's and other reroutes, but including part-time shuttles, we have the following currently: <<<
Which one of those on the list is nicknamed the "Franklin Shuttle"? :-)
Tom
Hi:
I'm off to NYC tomorrow morning and I'm wondering if there are any stores where I might add to my NYC Subway map collection?
Thanks in advance,
Ken Jones
Try Barnes & Noble bookstores, local newstands, or the NYC Transit store at Grand Central.
If you want to get a subway map and get it for FREE, ask at any token booth.
What if he wants to buy old maps? Not current ones. I don't think he'd be asking where to "BUY" the current map.
www.ebay.com
You're right. I thought at first he was asking where could he buy a current subway map.
There are places where he could buy a subway map. But the booths give them away for free upon request. Older maps however are scarce.
I am of course looking for older maps. I know in London there are a couple of stores that specialize in transit memorabilia, just wondering if the same exists in New York.
Ken
The Transit Museum Store at Gtand Central also has for free the bus maps for all five boroughs and the downtown Manahattan Map
Or you can call MTA customer service at 718 - 330 -1234 to obtain maps and train schedule. The maps plus shipping and handling is free.
They also tend to have some out of date maps there as well. I don't think the downtown map is available anymore, it wasn't there last week.